# Islam: Is it inherently Evil?



## Garpal Gumnut (25 October 2014)

I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11. 

I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.

I do not have much truck with religion.

The unpredictability of evil such as ISIS and the terrorist attacks in Canada makes me wonder. 

Is Islam evil?

gg


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## orr (25 October 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Is Islam evil?
> 
> gg




As Christopher Hitchens goes to great pains to explain, in about half an hour of your time you'll hear a utter demolition... not evil Just Stupid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCHHfBeu0QE


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 October 2014)

orr said:


> As Christopher Hitchens goes to great pains to explain, in about half an hour of your time you'll hear a utter demolition... not evil Just Stupid
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCHHfBeu0QE




Thanks orr,

We tend to try and explain motives for aberrant behaviour as if it were remediable.

My point was, evil versus just an aberration

When do we decide something or some behaviour is not just "stupid" "random" "senseless" , but is in fact purely evil. 


gg


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## Purple XS2 (25 October 2014)

Inherently hostile to anything outside of itself:

fixed rules as to an Islamic legal code which renders the testimony of any non-moslem to be worthless when contradicting any moslem.
fixed rules as to the tax burden any non-moslem should be paying for the privilege of being tolerated in a moslem governed realm.
death prescribed for apostasy, which is to say if one is born into Islam, or converts to it, then to ever renounce it is to deserve death.

Stupidity and evil can find a home anywhere, but intolerance has found a welcome home inside of Islam.


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## SirRumpole (25 October 2014)

I think you have to ask what good has Islam done and compare that with what bad it has done.

Bad. Corrupting young minds, enslaving generations by family pressure, coercion and intimidation to be devoted to the elders of the church and THEIR interpretations of the Koran, encouraging violence, repressing women, kidnapping and enslaving girls, shooting a young girl for speaking out against them, and the list goes on.

Good. Charities ? Not really. The house of Saud is one of the wealthiest in the world and have they ever done anything for humanity ?

All in all I'd have to say Islam is more bad than good and the world would be a better place without it.


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## orr (25 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you have to ask what good has Islam done .




Islam has a pretty good take on usury... IM (humble)O.


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## Garpal Gumnut (25 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you have to ask what good has Islam done and compare that with what bad it has done.
> 
> Bad. Corrupting young minds, enslaving generations by family pressure, coercion and intimidation to be devoted to the elders of the church and THEIR interpretations of the Koran, encouraging violence, repressing women, kidnapping and enslaving girls, shooting a young girl for speaking out against them, and the list goes on.
> 
> ...




What I'm hearing too.

Islam more bad than good.

But is it Evil ?

gg


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## galumay (25 October 2014)

Perhaps the question should be is religion inherently evil? Christianity certainly appears to be, a lot of the attitudes of Islam were formed by the actions of the original terrorists, the christian crusaders.


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## SirRumpole (25 October 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> But is it Evil ?
> 
> gg




Not of itself. Indonesia and Malaysia seem to get on OK with an Islamic government.

It's only when you get wackos in charge (like the Taliban) that it becomes evil.


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## DB008 (25 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Not of itself. Indonesia and Malaysia seem to get on OK with an Islamic government.
> 
> It's only when you get wackos in charge (like the Taliban) that it becomes evil.




Malaysia is slowly sliding back into the dark ages...




> *One step forward for Indonesia, one step back for Malaysia*
> 
> But now it's pursuing policies of religious discrimination as well, says Mr Chin: "Previously, they tried to regulate the body and behaviour of Muslims; now, they are trying to regulate the body and behaviour of non-Muslims too."
> 
> ...


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## luutzu (25 October 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11.
> 
> I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.
> 
> ...




Maybe sticking to your own personal experiences with Muslims is a good idea here - that having as mates who are devout Muslims but are also good people. The alternative would be: are all the 1.4 Billion or so Muslims all evil? Are some 25% of humanity just evil because their religion is inherently evil and then there's some other wackos within each communities and ethnicities. That and... should your Muslim mates really be mates still.

A lecture I watched a while back regarding US foreign policies cite the 911 Commission Reports' conclusion as to why 911 happen, what caused those terrorists to do what they did. The findings were that those 19 terrorists hated US foreign policies in the Middle East... that they grew up in Yemen and Saudi Arabia and hate the tyrants and dictators there, hate the fact that these gov't are selling a finite national resource so cheaply to the West and kept all the money to themselves and their castles; hate that foreign powers are allowed to be based on their land.

The Report found that those terrorists and its masterminds - Bin Laden and that other guy in Pakistan directly in charge of the plan - grew up seeing these "wrongs" being done to their land and their people, also seeing the atrocities committed by Israel on their Palestinian "brothers" and all of these they blame on the US and the West as either directly involved or done through puppets. And that is why they carried out 911.

These are not what some left wing nuts said, these are the findings of the 911 Commission's Report. That Report also said that the vast majority of Arabs in the Middle East agree with these sentiments.

The Report's conclusion? The Arabs are wrong, the terrorists are wrong... that US foreign policies in the Middle East was and is always for the good of the Arabs, just they're not understood to be so. Just a misunderstanding.  I think it was a lecture by Chomsky... anyway, the Report recommend greater effort be done to educate and show the Arabs how noble and generous US foreign policies are to the region and the people living there.

I think that when it come to politics, especially foreign policies, we ought to go beyond good and evil. It's sad and we shouldn't, but to take a moral stance like we only go to war for good while they go and commit evil... that kind of argument cannot be taken seriously. 

JFK's Defense Secretary - Robert McNamara - said in a very good documentary "The Fog of War" that for the things they did to Japan (the fire bombing of Tokyo among others), they would have been tried for war crimes if the US had lost.


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## luutzu (25 October 2014)

DB008 said:


> Malaysia is slowly sliding back into the dark ages...




So is Australia a great country because of its Christian moral values or it is so because of its secular democratic Constitution?


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## Julia (25 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> So is Australia a great country because of its Christian moral values or it is so because of its secular democratic Constitution?



The latter.


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## pixel (25 October 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Islam more bad than good.
> But is it Evil ?
> gg




I reckon, any monotheistic religion, in fact any mono-anything doctrine, bears an inherently evil seed.
As soon as you put the blinkers on, declaring the followers of YOUR doctrine the only GOOD guys, and discard everyone outside your "Circle of Truth" as infidel, heathen, pagan, inferior - you are sitting at the root of all evil.

Whether it's -

Yahweh, whose origin is that of the god of war, 
Jesus, whose message of Love was subsequently perverted by sword-wielding zealots, 
Allah, who told his one and only prophet to write down "his words" - yeah, right!
Joseph Smith's dreamt-up Adaptation, or
Ron L. Hubbard Science Fiction-ology
the seed of evil is sown because sooner or later, a group of "true believers" will take the "Us against Them" to the next level and convert or eliminate. If there is only One God (or One Master Race), then Peace and Tolerance will go out the window at the first sign of internal trouble, and "The Others" will be blamed and persecuted for any mishap that's befallen "Us". And if "They" can't be converted, taxed, enslaved - they'll be killed as a warning example, deterring anyone of "Us" from straying from the monotheist/ racist hardline of the leaders and "Defenders of The One Faith".

There may be a peace-loving minority in every group, but they are either small and powerless, or destined to "lose the true faith". Christians who focus on the original "Love Thy Neighbour" and "turn the other cheek" are most likely to inherit the earth - six feet under. And those, who give up the fight and preach tolerance and acceptance of other faiths, will soon become secularised and have their pacifism and tolerance turned against them by militant intolerance that invade their domains.

PS, luutzu:







> I think that when it come to politics, especially foreign policies, we ought to go beyond good and evil. It's sad and we shouldn't, but to take a moral stance like we only go to war for good while they go and commit evil... that kind of argument cannot be taken seriously.



+100%; call it Nationalism, Imperialism, or whatever else you like: The "Us against Them" is also alive and well with the US being Us; or "Britannia Rules the Waves"; or "Deutschland Uber Alles".


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## luutzu (25 October 2014)

Some Quotes from the Koran and other Islamic texts I just googled. I've seen similar ones from the Bible... 


*From Noble Quran:*

And whenever you give your word, say the truth [al-An'aam 6:152]

And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift) [al-Isra' 17:29]

“O ye who believe! Do not squander one another’s wealth in vanities, but let there be amongst you traffic and trade by mutual good will.” Qur’an:4:29

“God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable.” Qur’an:60:8

“And in their (the earlier prophets) footsteps We sent Jesus the son o Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the Gospel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.” Qur’an:5:46

“Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden (paradise) whose width is that of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous – Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity or in adversity, who restrain (their) anger and pardon (all) men – for God loves those who do good.” Qur’an:3:133-134

“Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily, to them will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.” Qur’an:16:97


*
From Hadith and Sunnah*

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “The best (Jihad) is (to speak) word of justice to an oppressive ruler.” Sunan of Abu-Dawood:2040

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “(Each one) of you should save himself from the fire by giving even half of a date (in charity). And if you do not find a half date, then (you can do it through saying) a pleasant word (to your brethren).” Bukhari:V2N394

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once told his wife: “Do not turn away a poor man..even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you…GOD will bring you near HIM on the Day of Resurrection.” Al-Tirmidhi:1376

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once told his wife: “Avoid Cruelty and injustice..and guard yourselves against miserliness, for this has ruined nations who lived before you.” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:203

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once said to one of his companions: “Son, if you are able, keep your heart..free from malice toward anyone.” Al-Tirmidhi:59


The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “Seven kinds of people will be sheltered under the shade of God on the Day of Judgment…They are: a just ruler, a young man who passed his youth in the worship and service of others for the sake of God…a man who is invited to sin…but declines, saying ‘I fear God’…one who spends his charity in secret, without making a show…and one who remembers God in solitude so that his eyes overflow.” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:376

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said “(God) has revealed to me that you should adopt humility so that no one oppresses another.” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:1589

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said “Avoid jealousy, for it destroys good deeds as fire destroys wood.” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:1569

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said “Fasting is not (just abstaining) from eating and drinking, but also from vain speech and foul language. If one of you is being cursed or annoyed, he should say: ‘I am fasting, I am fasting.’ ” Fiqh-us-Sunnah:V3N132A

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said “Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day (of Judgment) should not harm his neighbor. Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously. And anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should say what is good or keep quiet.” Bukhari:V8B73N47


*Random Wise Islamic Sayings:*

“Follow up a bad deed with a good deed, to cancel it out.”

“Love for other people what you love for yourself.”

“Deliberation is from Allaah, haste is from Shaytaan.”

“Do not become angry, and Paradise will be yours.”
“The most beloved of food to Allaah is that which is touched by many hands (i.e., shared among many people).”

“Do not betray the one who betrays you.”


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## bellenuit (26 October 2014)

The letter below is a response from a Muslim lady to the Ben Affleck's ignorant interjection in the "Real Time with Bill Maher" show when Bill and Sam Harris were making very pertinent points about "Liberal's" double standards when it comes to the bad side of Islam, that part of Islam as a religion (not Muslims as people) that is inherently evil. First is a video of the relevant segment:



*An open letter to Ben Affleck
*
_Dear Ben,

I am writing to you today as a woman who was born and raised in Islam. I saw your discussion with Bill Maher and Sam Harris, and I must say you did me a great disservice that day. Your heart was in the right place, of course, and it was lovely of you to step up and defend ‘my people’.

What you really did though, perhaps inadvertently, was silence a conversation that never gets started. Two people attempted to begin a dialogue and you wouldn’t even listen. Why should any set of ideas be above criticism, Ben?

Why are Muslims being ‘preserved’ in some time capsule of centuries gone by? Why is it okay that we continue to live in a world where our women are compared to candy waiting to be consumed? Why is it okay for women of the rest of the world to fight for freedom and equality while we are told to cover our shameful bodies? Can’t you see that we are being held back from joining this elite club known as the 21st century?

Noble liberals like yourself always stand up for the misrepresented Muslims and stand against the Islamophobes, which is great but who stands in my corner and for the others who feel oppressed by the religion? Every time we raise our voices, one of us is killed or threatened. I am a blogger and illustrator, no threat to anyone, Ben, except for those afraid of words and drawings. I want the freedom to express myself without the very real fear that I might be killed for it. Is that too much to ask?

When I wrote a children’s book that carried a message of diversity and inclusivity for everyone, my life changed. My book, ‘My Chacha (uncle) is Gay’ has the innocent anti-homophobia message, ‘Love belongs to everyone’. This was not palatable to many of my Muslim brothers and sisters.

Since that project I have been declared an ‘enemy of God’ and deemed worthy of death. All because I want to help create a world where South Asian children too can have their stories told, so they too can know that love comes in all forms, and that that’s okay. My Muslim brothers and sisters were hit hard by this work because it addresses the issue of homophobia within our own community. It is not something they can pass off as ‘Western’ immorality. Just like they deny that any issues exist within the doctrine of Islam, many deny that homosexuality exists amongst good, ‘moral’ Muslims. Just like that, millions of people’s existence is denied. Please do not defend people who think this way, and let me tell you Ben, many ‘good’ Muslims do think this way.

What you did by screaming ‘racist!’ was shut down a conversation that many of us have been waiting to have. You helped those who wish to deny there are issues, deny them. You became an instant hero, a defender of Islam. It’s kind, it really is. I understand because I too am plagued and affected by the issues brought about by actual Islamophobia. I have a Muslim name and brown skin, my peaceful relatives have been pushed in the subway and called ‘terrorist’ for no reason.

I get that.

We must distinguish critiquing an ideology from being hateful towards a group of people. And for this reason I think that tackling the issues within Islam should be two-pronged. They must be brought up, but simultaneously we should stress that blame for these issues cannot be placed on individuals.

In the interest of being politically correct and ‘liberal’, we silence the voices of millions. I am turning to you because you were instrumental in starting this conversation. Those of us who want reform are muted by extremists, as well as the liberals who betray us in the name of multiculturalism.

ISIS paints a horrific picture, so I understand the knee-jerk reaction to deny any link. Most Muslims choose to interpret scripture in a peaceful way, but that doesn’t mean the raw material isn’t there for those who choose the path of violence. That material must be addressed.

Can we talk about the blatant double standards and violation of human rights, for a second? Mosques are built throughout western countries, usually without much issue. But in the hub of Islam, the heart of Islam, Saudi Arabia, no one but Muslims are allowed to officially practice their faith. There are no churches, temples or synagogues because Saudi Arabia will not permit any non-Muslim place of worship to exist. Who will hold them accountable for such injustice if we hush everyone who speaks out against Islam?

What is so wrong with wanting to step into the current century? There should be no shame. There is no denying that violence, misogyny and homophobia exist in all religious texts, but Islam is the only religion that is adhered to so literally, to this day.

In your culture you have the luxury of calling such literalists “crazies”, like the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. In my culture, such values are upheld by more people than we realise. Many will try to deny it, but please hear me when I say that these are not fringe values. It is apparent in the lacking numbers of Muslims willing to speak out against the archaic Shariah law. The punishment for blasphemy and apostasy, etc, are tools of oppression. Why are they not addressed even by the peaceful folk who “aren’t fanatical, who just want to have some sandwiches and pray five times a day? Where are the Muslim protestors against blasphemy laws/apostasy? Where are the Muslims who take a stand against harsh interpretation of Shariah? These sandwich-eating peaceful folk do not defend those suffering in the name of Islam, Ben, and therein lies our problem.

Maybe the points Maher and Harris were trying to make are more easily digested when coming from within the community, I can appreciate that. That is why I am writing to you, as someone who has personally been hurt by the lack of acknowledgement of these issues.

If Muslims do not critique their own atrocities, then people on the outside will and their message will not be listened to simply because of who they are. It’s a vicious cycle, one that can only break if indeed, like Harris said, true reformers are empowered.

I ask you and anyone reading this to make an effort to seek out reformers from within our community, and support them in any way you can.

If I were allowed to meet a man that is not my father, brother or husband unchaperoned, I would have loved to discuss this over drinks (which I am also not allowed to have) with you. So, you see, things must change.

Sincerely,

Eiynah_

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/10/25/comment/an-open-letter-to-ben-affleck/


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## Calliope (26 October 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.
> gg




I am intrigued by this statement. Being devout Muslims they would of course be alcohol abstainers and not part of your Ross Island Hotel circle. Also, being devout, they would adhere to the teachings of the Prophet and the Koran and regard you as an infidel.

I don't think we should assume that devout means good.


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## SirRumpole (26 October 2014)

Calliope said:


> I don't think we should assume that devout means good.




I don't think it merans we should assume devout = bad either.

Or are you one of the "don't trust a man who doesn't drink" crowd ?


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## IFocus (26 October 2014)

Religion is the invention of men.

Animals don't follow it.

Men have long wielded religion as a source of power exactly what happen pretty much though out the world before and now.

Its men who urge others to kill in religions name not necessary the religion itself.

The evil is inherit in the hearts of men thats the problem and that they can persuade others to murder.

BTW our parliament is a derivative of the English system which was built on Christian principles from the new testament after the age of enlightenment and democracy has followed from that not the old testament had it been the old testament then perhaps we would be living a life similar to the current radical teachings of Islam.  

IMHO of course.


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 October 2014)

Calliope said:


> I am intrigued by this statement. Being devout Muslims they would of course be alcohol abstainers and not part of your Ross Island Hotel circle. Also, being devout, they would adhere to the teachings of the Prophet and the Koran and regard you as an infidel.
> 
> I don't think we should assume that devout means good.






SirRumpole said:


> I don't think it merans we should assume devout = bad either.
> 
> Or are you one of the "don't trust a man who doesn't drink" crowd ?




I would agree.

My position now is that there are evil people who cannot be remediated.

I would equally oppose any efforts to remediate evil people.

gg


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## noco (26 October 2014)

Is this for real.......I cannot prove otherwise.

What next will these Muslims demand in our Western Society?

They have to be told.


LARRY PICKERING

YOU GOT RID OF THE CARBON TAX TONY
... so now get rid of the Halal Tax

Toasted cheese with a dollop of Vegemite was my favourite late night snack, but I leave off the Vegemite now that it’s owned by the American company MondelezInternational and sports a little “Hal Certified” notice. No worries, my Aussie owned and made Bega cheese still bubbled under the griller while the jug boiled for a strong cup of tea.
That was until I noticed this funny little Arabic hieroglyph on the back of my Bega cheese packet too. Bloody hell, first my Vegemite and now my Bega cheese! No worries, I'm happy with plain toast.
I wasn't game to gothrough the whole fridge or I'd have starved.
Trying to find Aussie tucker on the shelves is hard enough but trying to find tucker that is not Islamically sanctioned is near impossible, and it’s meant to be.
An insidious and illegal protection racket called “Halal Certification” has worked its way through our food chains without us knowing a thing about it.
Australian manufacturers and importers of food and drink are actually paying Islamic halal certifiers up to $30,000 per month for the honour of displaying this littleArabic sign.
So, who are these Islamic bastards who are adding to my grocery bill? Well, the "Indonesian Council of Ulama", MUI, (which also orders Fatwa rulings) is the Mafia style Islamic body organising the multi-million dollar racket that forces Australian companies to pay outrageous amounts to have their food certified as halal.
One major Aussie meat processor, who refused to be identified, claimed he had been told to pay $27,000 a month for halal certification, which of course was expected to bepassed on to the consumer.
Mr Stephen Kelly, anexecutive of the Japanese-owned Nippon Meat Packers in Queensland, said last year that MUI had banned his abattoirs from selling meat into Indonesia because he had dealt with MUI’s opposition for certification.
MUI’s opposition is the Australian certifier, "Halal Food Services" (AHFS), who had undercut MUI’s price for certification and the Indonesian company apparently calls the tune when it comes to blackmailing Australian food companies.
From what I can discover there are halal certifiers in all countries with South East Asia being regulated from Indonesia and the governing body’s world headquarters are encamped in Saudi Arabia. There are State branch halal authorities operating in Australia
Islamic websites claim all money (estimated in the billions) goes to building Islamic schools but where it actually goes after leaving Australia I shudder to guess.
The funny thing is a couple of years ago Aussie shoppers woke up to the scam and began avoiding halal certified food, so all these little Arabic motifs started disappearing.
Thinking this might lead to some sort of Fatwa I called a few food manufacturers. None was prepared to speak to me, except Arnott’s, who said they were attempting to resist some "standover tactics".
One distributor, who asked not to be named, was prepared to offer an opinion: “They really don’t care if the halal sign is there or not, they only insist it’s on the exported product and as long as the supplier pays the monthly fee everything’s sweet. If they refuse to pay, then their exports are at risk.”
Local clerics arrange for Muslims to flood Aussie food processors with intimidating letters and phone calls threatening that unless they pay fees to become halal certified, some, “pretty bad stuff will happen”.
When contacted last year over the scam, the Federal Department of Agriculture said it had, “no power over religious certifiers”. But another spokesman said, and get this one:
"The Australian Government values our close relationship with MUI and will continue to worktogether with them to overcome issues that affect the mutually beneficial trade in red meat to Indonesia."
I have asked the Dept of Agriculture if they have an update on their response to halal certification, but am yet to receive a reply. I have also left phone messages with BarnabyJoyce but it seems halal certification is an uncomfortable subject.
An Islamic Council response?
"Hope this will clear the misconception of Halal issue for all intent and purpose. 
"The Halal Food Authority promotes animal welfare, adherence to food safety, food hygiene and quality in compliance with the teachings of the Islamic jurisprudence and faith." Blah blah blah, as soon as got to the animal welfare bit I knew it was a load of Islamic camel droppings.
So it’s up to you Tony, no new legislation needed, no Senate ****, just an appreciation of what is already thoroughly illegal and what is hurting Australian shoppers. Of course it may also hurt relations with our lovely Islamic friends.
Or is that the real problem?


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## SirRumpole (26 October 2014)

noco said:
			
		

> Well, the "Indonesian Council of Ulama", MUI, (which also orders Fatwa rulings) is the Mafia style Islamic body organising the multi-million dollar racket that *forces* Australian companies to pay outrageous amounts to have their food certified as halal.




How are they "forcing" people to apply for this certification ?

If companies don't want the certification they don't have to have it.

More mindless rhetoric from Pickering.


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## pixel (26 October 2014)

noco said:


> Is this for real.......I cannot prove otherwise.
> 
> What next will these Muslims demand in our Western Society?
> 
> ...




I wouldn't pay too much attention to what Larry Pickering is cr@pping on about.
When he's on a roll, he makes even Bolt appear moderate.

Just read this for a bit of balance: http://www.altmedia.net.au/a-demagogue-creeps-out-from-under-his-rock/98256


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## FxTrader (26 October 2014)

orr said:


> As Christopher Hitchens goes to great pains to explain, in about half an hour of your time you'll hear a utter demolition... not evil Just Stupid  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCHHfBeu0QE




Thanks for posting this Orr.  Hitchens is better known for his masterful demolition of Christian theology, dogma and the various demagogues who promote it,  but he has also engaged in many debates with Muslims and skillfully demolished them and the Islamic tradition as well.  The following debate with Tariq Ramadan is one such example.  The whole debate is interesting but the opening 10 or so minutes from Hitchens is just excellent oratory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CGFMwtJTyE

Not only is Islam inherently evil in itself by almost any definition of the term, it inspires evil in others on a scale that dwarfs rival belief systems in imaginary celestial dictators.  Islam's all encompassing vision for human society is a totalitarian's paradise where even seemingly benign statements can earn one a death sentence and where religious leaders rule with abject tyranny.

I have encountered many nice, well mannered Muslims and had pleasant conversations with them.  However, I am under no illusion that underneath this calm, pleasant demeanor many of them would like to see Islamic Law imposed on everyone and Islam become the dominant religion of the land.  They represent a kind of Trojan horse that if ignored, will undermine many of the freedoms we now enjoy (this erosion of freedoms has already occurred due to the terrorist threat).  Islamic democracy is more than just an oxymoron, they are incompatible ideas and apologists for this religion need to clearly understand this.


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## luutzu (26 October 2014)

bellenuit said:


> The letter below is a response from a Muslim lady to the Ben Affleck's ignorant interjection in the "Real Time with Bill Maher" show when Bill and Sam Harris were making very pertinent points about "Liberal's" double standards when it comes to the bad side of Islam, that part of Islam as a religion (not Muslims as people) that is inherently evil. First is a video of the relevant segment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Bill Maher is a Liberal? He's a racist that's what he is. During the recent "operation" in Gaza I heard him asked rhetorically how many Nobel laureates are Muslims or Arabs? How many are Jewish? Practically saying Muslims are idiots and Jews are all intelligent and enlightened people. And if he believe in God, he would have said they are God's chosen people too.

Have you ever criticised anyone? How did they take it? Have you ever swear and disrespect people's kids, or spouse or parents? They took it well? But you somehow think they should be OK with you making fun of their God, their Creator, the being they pray to 5 times a day? Are you insane?

Try and criticise any faith, any religion, try doing that to the followers' face and I bet you most often you will be booed and get ignored... and more than likely there's one or two with anger issue who will beat you to a pulp. 

All religions are nuts... and the only reason "we" can criticise the Christian/Jewish God (as opposed to the same being called Allah) is because most of these critics live in states that have a thing call the separation of Church and State, have laws that forbid people from being executed or imprisoned for making free speeches.

How are women treated by the nobel Christian societies? From memory, women were considered the property of their father, then their husband... and considered so until around the 1900s; When were women allowed to vote in our fair democracies? Since its inception or less than 100 years ago? How about women in the workforce? Or women wearing bikinis? I think women were only allowed to play Baseball in the US during WW2 - mainly because the men are all away fighting.

How about "the gays"? Only a handful of states in the US just recently recognise same sex marriage; In Australia, Senator Shirley Wong - a Lesbian - was forced to say that she, even though she is a homosexual, does not believe marriage and its privileges be extended to people like herself. How sick is our moral value when it is political suicide to say that maybe the country I serve, whose high office I hold, whose laws I debate and make... that country and that people should treat me less because of who I love and choose to marry.

So get off your high horse and see things for what they are. By all mean criticise Islam and anything and anyone else... just when you do, apply the same sharp wit and morality to your own faith... just to be fair.. that's what a Liberal would do.


----------



## noco (26 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> How are they "forcing" people to apply for this certification ?
> 
> If companies don't want the certification they don't have to have it.
> 
> More mindless rhetoric from Pickering.






*Australian manufacturers and importers of food and drink are actually paying Islamic halal certifiers up to $30,000 per month for the honour of displaying this littleArabic sign.
So, who are these Islamic bastards who are adding to my grocery bill? Well, the "Indonesian Council of Ulama", MUI, (which also orders Fatwa rulings) is the Mafia style Islamic body organising the multi-million dollar racket that forces Australian companies to pay outrageous amounts to have their food certified as halal.
One major Aussie meat processor, who refused to be identified, claimed he had been told to pay $27,000 a month for halal certification, which of course was expected to bepassed on to the consumer.
Mr Stephen Kelly, anexecutive of the Japanese-owned Nippon Meat Packers in Queensland, said last year that MUI had banned his abattoirs from selling meat into Indonesia because he had dealt with MUI’s opposition for certification.
MUI’s opposition is the Australian certifier, "Halal Food Services" (AHFS), who had undercut MUI’s price for certification and the Indonesian company apparently calls the tune when it comes to blackmailing Australian food companies.
From what I can discover there are halal certifiers in all countries with South East Asia being regulated from Indonesia and the governing body’s world headquarters are encamped in Saudi Arabia. There are State branch halal authorities operating in Australia
Islamic websites claim all money (estimated in the billions) goes to building Islamic schools but where it actually goes after leaving Australia I shudder to guess.
The funny thing is a couple of years ago Aussie shoppers woke up to the scam and began avoiding halal certified food, so all these little Arabic motifs started disappearing.
Thinking this might lead to some sort of Fatwa I called a few food manufacturers. None was prepared to speak to me, except Arnott’s, who said they were attempting to resist some "standover tactics".
One distributor, who asked not to be named, was prepared to offer an opinion: “They really don’t care if the halal sign is there or not, they only insist it’s on the exported product and as long as the supplier pays the monthly fee everything’s sweet. If they refuse to pay, then their exports are at risk.”
Local clerics arrange for Muslims to flood Aussie food processors with intimidating letters and phone calls threatening that unless they pay fees to become halal certified, some, “pretty bad stuff will happen”.
When contacted last year over the scam, the Federal Department of Agriculture said it had, “no power over religious certifiers”. But another spokesman said, and get this one:
*

If that is not applying force, I don't know what else you would call it.


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## luutzu (26 October 2014)

noco said:


> *Australian manufacturers and importers of food and drink are actually paying Islamic halal certifiers up to $30,000 per month for the honour of displaying this littleArabic sign.
> So, who are these Islamic bastards who are adding to my grocery bill? Well, the "Indonesian Council of Ulama", MUI, (which also orders Fatwa rulings) is the Mafia style Islamic body organising the multi-million dollar racket that forces Australian companies to pay outrageous amounts to have their food certified as halal.
> One major Aussie meat processor, who refused to be identified, claimed he had been told to pay $27,000 a month for halal certification, which of course was expected to bepassed on to the consumer.
> Mr Stephen Kelly, anexecutive of the Japanese-owned Nippon Meat Packers in Queensland, said last year that MUI had banned his abattoirs from selling meat into Indonesia because he had dealt with MUI’s opposition for certification.
> ...




I think that's just capitalism at work. See, they're not so different.


----------



## luutzu (26 October 2014)

FxTrader said:


> Thanks for posting this Orr.  Hitchens is better known for his masterful demolition of Christian theology, dogma and the various demagogues who promote it,  but he has also engaged in many debates with Muslims and skillfully demolished them and the Islamic tradition as well.  The following debate with Tariq Ramadan is one such example.  The whole debate is interesting but the opening 10 or so minutes from Hitchens is just excellent oratory.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CGFMwtJTyE
> 
> ...




Seriously, blaming other people for our deeds is a bit childish... even my four year old know better.
Those evil terrorists! Forcing my Captain to systematically remove my privacy, erode my freedom!
Those terrorist! Wearing scary black masks, controlling my oil fields and then forcing me to have to send in the jets and drop the bombs and waste $500 million at moderate bombing rates for a year... uuurgggg!!

I don't feel so bad now not making small talks and polite conversation at work if I could help it.


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## FxTrader (27 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> Seriously, blaming other people for our deeds is a bit childish... even my four year old know better. Those evil terrorists! Forcing my Captain to systematically remove my privacy, erode my freedom!
> Those terrorist! Wearing scary black masks, controlling my oil fields and then forcing me to have to send in the jets and drop the bombs and waste $500 million at moderate bombing rates for a year... uuurgggg!!  I don't feel so bad now not making small talks and polite conversation at work if I could help it.



It's entirely unclear how such gibberish constitutes a intelligible reply to my post but given your previous posts here a more intelligent and thoughtful reply was expected.  Try listening to the debate link posted, perhaps your reply to it will be less dismissive and misdirected.  In doing so try to avoid silly straw man arguments. 

Do I think the world would be a safer place without brainwashed maniacal Muslims, who view martyrdom to obtain paradise their highest calling in life, finding new ways to butcher people in the name of Allah?  Of course.  

Has the activity of these religious morons been a causative force in the dilution of freedoms and increase in surveillance activity by governments?  Absolutely.  

Is the threat overstated?  Only if you mistakenly think Islam is really a religion of peace with no goal toward world wide dominion. I don't.


----------



## luutzu (27 October 2014)

FxTrader said:


> It's entirely unclear how such gibberish constitutes a intelligible reply to my post but given your previous posts here a more intelligent and thoughtful reply was expected.  Try listening to the debate link posted, perhaps your reply to it will be less dismissive and misdirected.  In doing so try to avoid silly straw man arguments.
> 
> Do I think the world would be a safer place without brainwashed maniacal Muslims, who view martyrdom to obtain paradise their highest calling in life, finding new ways to butcher people in the name of Allah?  Of course.
> 
> ...




Yea, what Hitchen said was pure logic and oratorical excellence. Give me a break man.

Name me one religion that doesn't control its followers' entire life and action. I heard that Judaism cut little boys' foreskin in some ceremony; Christianity deemed all its followers as sinners, even newborns whose only sin might be to wake their parents up every couple hours... and of course we all know the insanity of Islam, what with forcing its followers to pray at 5AM each day?

I love how Hitchen said that all the evils and crimes of the Christian states, with its Christian Emperors - except France or something... how all these empires and their evil ways like slavery, genocide and colonisation... all that ended after WW1. All except Islam and its empire. That's quite something... you would really have to ignore a whole lot of history and a whole lot of common sense to say stuff like that.

I thought I was rude to think there is no God.


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2014)

Amazing how something without form or substance can be blamed for all sorts of human behaviours.

Goes to show how willingly humans attach themselves to tribes for comfort and conformity. Even Hitchens tries to garner a following of his own belief system masquerading as temporal and he has many faithful willing to go out and witness those beliefs.

Personally I like the idea of some all powerful entity who can roll some dirt into a planet and tractor beam it into orbit using magnetism, throw some seeds on it, dowse in water and heh presto in six days there's a habitat for nudists. In fact it wasn't too long ago the earth was a deflated disc, then around the medieval times warming started and it popped out into a globe.... for this reason alone the old tall stories found in religious texts became out dated over night...., but still they persist, rallying the not so bright, albeit studious, into more primate stupidness. 

How clever do you have to be to read 790k or 77k words? That's about 12 novels or one book a month if you like to take your time. But some people spend everyday for their entire drone existence reading one book, cherry picking snippets to justify their primitive emotional chains that bind them or others.  Similarly sized books of Sudoku would be mind shattering to these people it seems. 

And who's doing all the innovation, industry and wealth creation while God's troglodytes are out there destroying civilisations for the hell of it.... the USA and China that's who.


----------



## Calliope (27 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> Amazing how something without form or substance can be blamed for all sorts of human behaviours.




Of course. Most of the time they are just naughty boys.


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## SirRumpole (27 October 2014)

noco said:
			
		

> But another spokesman said, and get this one:




Was there supposed to be something after this ?


----------



## noco (27 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> I think that's just capitalism at work. See, they're not so different.




That just does not make any sense......I really don't know what message you are trying offer.


----------



## FxTrader (27 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> Amazing how something without form or substance can be blamed for all sorts of human behaviours.



Of course the reverse is the case, human invented religious myth and legend taken to seriously can and should be blamed for whacky human behaviours.  You can't blame imaginary sky gods for any human behaviour.   



> Goes to show how willingly humans attach themselves to tribes for comfort and conformity. Even Hitchens tries to garner a following of his own belief system masquerading as temporal and he has many faithful willing to go out and witness those beliefs.



That you would seriously suggest that Hitches (a harsh critic of religious myth) had a "belief system" on par with religious drones is absurd - a "non-belief" system perhaps.  Hitchens views were "temporal" in nature, certainly nothing masquerading as knowledge of the eternal.  While I have a deep respect for many of his well articulated and researched views and arguments (not all), I certainly don't worship or deify him and I seriously doubt many do.  Implying that Hitchens is something akin to a religious prophet and those who share his views on poisonous religious myth as "faithful" sheep, is insulting rhetorical excrement.


----------



## noco (27 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Was there supposed to be something after this ?




If you had read my full post # 21 you would have read all about it.


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2014)

FxTrader said:


> Implying that Hitchens is something akin to a religious prophet and those who share his views on poisonous religious myth as "faithful" sheep, is insulting rhetorical excrement.




As insulting as questioning another's beliefs and opinions?


----------



## FxTrader (27 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> As insulting as questioning another's beliefs and opinions?



What a pathetic retort, as if the very act of questioning belief in religious myth is inherently an insult.  The more extreme form of such reasoning leads to a justification for killing cartoonists for insulting the prophet or ordering a fatwa against the author of a book of fiction.  This kind of false victimization is frequently deployed by the religious and their fearful apologists, don't question bad ideas or things like the existence of fictional deities because you may cause offense and thus motivate a violent response. 

Damn those free socities with offensive ideas like free speech and the open expression of critical, rational thought, heretics!  Beliefs and opinions that are poisonous to human society must be challenged and if that leads to some duped relegious drones taking offense then so be it.


----------



## luutzu (27 October 2014)

noco said:


> That just does not make any sense......I really don't know what message you are trying offer.




What they're doing is what any capitalist would do - use the power you've established and squeeze what you can out of those that need your services/goods.

Woolworths and Coles aren't very nice to the farmers and the suppliers - there's a case against Coles at the ACCC right now I read. Something about forcing suppliers to pay extra because the goods were sold but not at the margin Coles was expecting, so pay up or else.

Then there's a Buddhist temple I know well that charges extra if you want an image of your beloved closer to Buddha - the closer to his statue, the more it will cost. They also have a pagoda - paid for from donations - where the ashes of the deceased are kept, and again, the higher up the pagoda you want your beloved, the more it will cost.

Then there's what Norman Finkelstein called the Holocaust industry that did a shake down on the Swiss banks and got some billions in compensation for Holocaust survivors who lost their money to the Swiss banks - apparently those rich Jewish people didn't have the sense to take out their money and buy a few seats on the next plane or boat out of Germany and Nazi Europe... and those billions? Only some 20 million goes to the survivors.

Then there's the Pope back then selling forgiveness or something... that if you're rich enough, you can buy forgiveness for sins and be closer to God. Then there's the more modern examples of the Church having billions in their trust accounts, spending millions on high end properties all over the world... and their world is one without poverty or the poor and the hungry?

I heard from a recent documentary that the Italian Mafia wanted Pope Francis gone because of the reforms he instituted - opening the books on the Vatican banks and donations... thus making it harder to launder money.

As Pixel and Tisme said in their posts, people often just do what they do and grab whatever convincing symbolism they can get away with to further that purpose. So if you want to criticise anyone, let alone 1.4 or so billion people, at least be honest about the way you do it... else you'd just be preaching to the choir as they say, and while it makes you feel good, it also make you and your fellow idiots.


----------



## noco (27 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> What they're doing is what any capitalist would do - use the power you've established and squeeze what you can out of those that need your services/goods.
> 
> Woolworths and Coles aren't very nice to the farmers and the suppliers - there's a case against Coles at the ACCC right now I read. Something about forcing suppliers to pay extra because the goods were sold but not at the margin Coles was expecting, so pay up or else.
> 
> ...




There is no comparison and you are totally wrong.....there is difference between competitiveness and extortion.


----------



## luutzu (27 October 2014)

noco said:


> There is no comparison and you are totally wrong.....there is difference between competitiveness and extortion.




If the manufacturers and suppliers don't want to have their goods Halal certified, then don't pay for it. I'm sure they can decide if paying it make business sense or not. Unless those Muslims hold a gun to the manufacturers' head or wear explosive belts while negotiating, it's just business.

If the farmers don't like what Coles and Woolies are doing to them, don't deal with them... that's pure capitalism... maybe not the smartest or a good long term way of doing business but profits got to be made, and made right now. 
Back in my days, a movie ticket costs $5. Now it's $20! What a racket.


----------



## pixel (27 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> If the manufacturers and suppliers don't want to have their goods Halal certified, then don't pay for it. I'm sure they can decide if paying it make business sense or not. Unless those Muslims hold a gun to the manufacturers' head or wear explosive belts while negotiating, it's just business.
> 
> If the farmers don't like what Coles and Woolies are doing to them, don't deal with them... that's pure capitalism... maybe not the smartest or a good long term way of doing business but profits got to be made, and made right now.
> Back in my days, a movie ticket costs $5. Now it's $20! What a racket.




I have to agree with you there, luutzu.

Halal certification is nothing other than price gouging or stand-over, if one prefers that term.
The Americans use their commercial muscle to flog their iPads, DVDs, iTunes at exorbitant mark-ups in Australia and threaten to sue the pants of every kid that torrents the junk for free. "Western ethics" serves them well as a pretext. If some Indons use their religion as pretext for the same kind of blackmail, we can't blame it any more on religion; instead, I'd say they learned their commercial lessons well.

I would even go one step further and liken Islam's "permission" to pull a swiftie over infidels to Western marketing methods that don't even discriminate between customers. Read Joe's new topic on white-collar crims: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29114
They screw anybody indiscriminately, and the Law is an Ass and lets them get away with it.


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2014)

FxTrader said:


> What a pathetic retort, as if the very act of questioning belief in religious myth is inherently an insult.  The more extreme form of such reasoning leads to a justification for killing cartoonists for insulting the prophet or ordering a fatwa against the author of a book of fiction.  This kind of false victimization is frequently deployed by the religious and their fearful apologists, don't question bad ideas or things like the existence of fictional deities because you may cause offense and thus motivate a violent response.
> 
> Damn those free socities with offensive ideas like free speech and the open expression of critical, rational thought, heretics!  Beliefs and opinions that are poisonous to human society must be challenged and if that leads to some duped relegious drones taking offense then so be it.




That's just a rant with bit 'n bobs thrown in to tenuously support a vacuous argument ... don't you think? 

I stand by my thesis that the Hawkins are merely propounding their own agenda and looking to please a crowd in the process. He wants followers to spread his gospel.

BTW I don't believe in organised religions or false prophets. I do leave the door open for some wonderful thing that has vast ability though.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (27 October 2014)

pixel said:


> I have to agree with you there, luutzu.
> 
> Halal certification is nothing other than price gouging or stand-over, if one prefers that term.
> The Americans use their commercial muscle to flog their iPads, DVDs, iTunes at exorbitant mark-ups in Australia and threaten to sue the pants of every kid that torrents the junk for free. "Western ethics" serves them well as a pretext. If some Indons use their religion as pretext for the same kind of blackmail, we can't blame it any more on religion; instead, I'd say they learned their commercial lessons well.
> ...




I would agree pixel, that halal is a rort.

I am mightily pissed off having to pay extra for meat, milk, smallgoods or munchies that are "halal certified". 

It's a cost. 

It reminds me of the Seventh Day Adventist lifting of all our ancestors in to a retrospective heavenly corpus. 

Islam and SDA need to come clean on this rorting. 

gg


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## Sean K (27 October 2014)

If anyone had really read the Old Testimant and the Koran, then you know it's about primitive politics. Since the New Testiment is based on the Old, then they are committed also. If you argue different, then you're not arguing for the fundamental beliefs of your religious cult. Where is God right now? Why is he allowing his subjects to kill each other in the name of what?


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 October 2014)

kennas said:


> If anyone had really read the Old Testimant and the Koran, then you know it's about primitive politics. Since the New Testiment is based on the Old, then they are committed also. If you argue different, then you're not arguing for the fundamental beliefs of your religious cult. Where is God right now? Why is he allowing his subjects to kill each other in the name of what?




A good comment, kennas.

It is all about being primitive.

And in primitive cultures it is all a dichotomy. Good v Evil. 

gg


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## noco (28 October 2014)

kennas said:


> If anyone had really read the Old Testimant and the Koran, then you know it's about primitive politics. Since the New Testiment is based on the Old, then they are committed also. If you argue different, then you're not arguing for the fundamental beliefs of your religious cult. Where is God right now? Why is he allowing his subjects to kill each other in the name of what?





I think God is worried about over population of Planet Earth so he has assigned the Radical Islamists  to eradicate the Christians and infidels.


----------



## FxTrader (28 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> I stand by my thesis that the Hawkins are merely propounding their own agenda and looking to please a crowd in the process. He wants followers to spread his gospel.



 Presumably you mean the scientist Richard Dawkins here who was not the person referenced in my post, that was Chris Hitchens.  You're really struggling to make a coherent argument here.

If there is anything that could be labelled as vacuous it's your specious and ridiculous "thesis" that people like Hitches or Dawkins have anything like a gospel or doctrine in any way equivalent to religions or the religious.  I am fairly certain that scientists like Dawkins and Harris would much rather discuss biology or neuroscience than religious fiction but do so out of frustration with creationist's attempts to undermine traditional science.  Call that an agenda if you wish but its an entirely necessary one given how human society is being ripped apart and balkanized by competing claims in magic books.


----------



## luutzu (28 October 2014)

FxTrader said:


> Presumably you mean the scientist Richard Dawkins here who was not the person referenced in my post, that was Chris Hitchens.  You're really struggling to make a coherent argument here.
> 
> If there is anything that could be labelled as vacuous it's your specious and ridiculous "thesis" that people like Hitches or Dawkins have anything like a gospel or doctrine in any way equivalent to religions or the religious.  I am fairly certain that scientists like Dawkins and Harris would much rather discuss biology or neuroscience than religious fiction but do so out of frustration with creationist's attempts to undermine traditional science.  Call that an agenda if you wish but its an entirely necessary one given how human society is being ripped apart and balkanized by competing claims in magic books.




I saw a clip where Chomsky would agree with Tisme about Hitchens there. That Hitchens is NOT a secularist or an Atheist, that while Hitchens doesn't believe in the God/s that people pray to every week or so, he believe in the other God - the State - and whatever Hitchens' god does is right and noble.


----------



## pixel (28 October 2014)

noco said:


> I think God is worried about over population of Planet Earth so he has assigned the Radical Islamists  to eradicate the Christians and infidels.




... and the American Gun Lobby.
I suspect when you add it all up, the 2nd Amendment would give ISIL a run for their money :1zhelp:



> Each year, more than 30,000 people die in the United States in firearm-related incidents.





> When God created humans, She was only joking.


----------



## FxTrader (28 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> I saw a clip where Chomsky would agree with Tisme about Hitchens there. That Hitchens is NOT a secularist or an Atheist, that while Hitchens doesn't believe in the God/s that people pray to every week or so, he believe in the other God - the State - and whatever Hitchens' god does is right and noble.



Hitchens was a self-described "antitheist" a term he preferred to atheist since he was a strident critic of religion and not just a non-believer.  I think this quote from the Secular Coalition for America describes him quite well...



> Although his (Hitches) political ideas and positions may have changed through his career, he steadfastly remained a believer in the Enlightenment values of secularism, humanism and reason. Later in his life, Hitchens focused on protecting our secular democracy against efforts -- both foreign and domestic -- to impose what he called "theocratic fascism."




Hitchens definitely had his flaws but state worship was not one of them.


----------



## Calliope (28 October 2014)

pixel said:


> ... and the American Gun Lobby.
> I suspect when you add it all up, the 2nd Amendment would give ISIL a run for their money :1zhelp:




Numbers maybe, but not in the atrocities department. I suggest that what they are doing under the cloak of Islam is very evil indeed. These people are savages.

http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/urgent-isis-beheaded-kurdish-female-fighter-rehana/


----------



## FxTrader (28 October 2014)

Calliope said:


> Numbers maybe, but not in the atrocities department. I suggest that what they are doing under the cloak of Islam is very evil indeed. These people are savages.
> http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/urgent-isis-beheaded-kurdish-female-fighter-rehana/



If only Islam was just a cloak for ISILs activities masking non-religious based motives.  Instead, Islam is at the very core of this savagery, the interpretation of which is used to justify crimes against humanity.  Islam is the most virulent form of religious cancer.  This post on Iraqinews provides insight into these religious lunatics world view...



> _jibreel  August 5, 2014 at 3:52 am
> Why would Almighty want to destroy a group of People, who wants to strictly implement the Commands of the Most Supreme, against a Nation who has become Perverted and has fallen into the Abyss of Immorality. What you are witnessing is the Wrath of Almighty, to destroy this Nation, like the Nations of the past, who transgressed his bounds.So fear Almighty, and ask for his forgiveness for your Sins. May be he might become merciful, and retrieve his Punishment._




Such is the reasoning of a brainwashed slave to the Islamic religion.  Can there really be any compromise with someone who actually believes that their version of God not only justifies but has a hand in this carnage?


----------



## Tisme (28 October 2014)

FxTrader said:


> Can there really be any compromise with someone who actually believes that their version of God not only justifies but has a hand in this carnage?




Unfortunately, I'm guessing, compromise is going to be answer and even more unfortunately there is going to be great suffering by those left to their own devices. 

The notion that Muslims are 600 years behind Christianity seems more plausible, albeit indefensible.

Like you (perhaps) I find the whole thing abhorrent, unpalatable, angering and evil. I cannot comprehend why so many people are drawn into it (barbarism)


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## luutzu (29 October 2014)

It's understandable to see your people, your God, your way of life etc... as superior. Just there might be some bias and a little bit of bigotry in there, somewhere, I think. No?


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## farsvideo (29 October 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11.
> 
> I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.
> 
> ...




i am a muslim. thats right.


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## luutzu (29 October 2014)

farsvideo said:


> i am a muslim. thats right.




This is going to get interesting.


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## Tisme (3 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> It's understandable to see your people, your God, your way of life etc... as superior. Just there might be some bias and a little bit of bigotry in there, somewhere, I think. No?




No I'm happy for people to have their own religion, but when they use it as a call to arms which in turn results in loss of freedoms or imperils the man in the street I am not agreeable....any religion  

Of course by making sure any counter insurgency is seen as a religious confrontation,  ISIS can skirt around the 60.008 verse deterrent which favours tolerance and equity. 

The Green/Orange Irish thing was a bad stain on the civilised world for many generations and had many wallowing in the consequential mire of misery. As usual religion was used to advance a justice that was in many ways more unjust and barbaric than the one it sought to replace. Even so you go to the USA original colonies and there are American descendants of Eskimos who swear they are bog Irish...weird allegiances.


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## noco (4 November 2014)

I have been saying for many moons now the Muslim population are moderate in small numbers but when they increase their numbers is the time they start to use their muscle.

I believe there are a lot of sleeping logs amongst the Muslim community and they are starting to raise their heads as a consequence of the recent police raids......I also believe it has brought many out in the open, way ahead of their planned time.....Maybe the police have sucked them in to see who would be protesting and I am sure the police were not disappointed.

QandA last night gave some insight as what the Muslims are thinking and their demands will increase with the increase in their numbers.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1415094447647


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## Value Collector (5 November 2014)

> Is Islam evil?




If we go by the definition of evil as being 1.profoundly immoral and wicked.


Then I think all religion is evil at its core, now I am not saying all members are evil, but the concept of the major  religions themselves are evil, as to are their leaders.


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## SirRumpole (5 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> If we go by the definition of evil as being 1.profoundly immoral and wicked.
> 
> 
> Then I think all religion is evil at its core, now I am not saying all members are evil, but the concept of the major  religions themselves are evil, as to are their leaders.




What concepts of religion are evil in your opinion ?


----------



## Craton (5 November 2014)

I don't think any religion is inherently evil, just the practitioners that want to interpret the written word into their own distorted and perverted world view and impose that onto the masses that are inherently evil.


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## Wysiwyg (5 November 2014)

noco said:


> QandA last night gave some insight as what the Muslims are thinking and their demands will increase with the increase in their numbers.



Yes that Q and A was interesting. The common theme in the group is the feeling of persecution. The truth is that there are people around the world that practice the scriptures with criminal intent. If people are associated with criminals then they expect to be targeted. Did you here any of them condemn the actions of their criminal, as they say, 'brothers and sisters'? I detected a silent contentment with the actions of their holy war jihadist brothers and sisters. 

Another facet I notice common is the group is quick to anger, with a low tolerance of anyone speaking or acting against their belief. This is because the followers have a strong, emotional attachment to the words in their book.


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## Tisme (5 November 2014)

Wysiwyg said:


> Yes that Q and A was interesting. The common theme in the group is the feeling of persecution. The truth is that there are people around the world that practice the scriptures with criminal intent. If people are associated with criminals then they expect to be targeted. Did you here any of them condemn the actions of their criminal, as they say, 'brothers and sisters'? I detected a silent contentment with the actions of their holy war jihadist brothers and sisters.
> 
> Another facet I notice common is the group is quick to anger, with a low tolerance of anyone speaking or acting against their belief. This is because the followers have a strong, emotional attachment to the words in their book.




two clichÃ©s come to mind:

walk like a duck.....

lay down with dogs .......


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## Value Collector (5 November 2014)

Craton said:


> I don't think any religion is inherently evil, just the practitioners that want to interpret the written word into their own distorted and perverted world view and impose that onto the masses that are inherently evil.




The core values of the major religions are immoral and some of them can be described as wicked, that's all it takes to be evil.

You don't have to distort the written word, its the core principles I am talking about. 

Take Christianity for example, it extols the virtue of scape goating and human sacrifice, the whole idea of us all being sinners because Adam and Eve disobeyed god is immoral, not to mention saying we are worthy of infinite eternal hell fire, for finite crimes. When your past that you get to the concept of torturing and killing another person to free us of our sins, this sort of scape goating is immoral, and it goes on and on, plenty of wickedness and immorality in the major religions teachings.


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## Value Collector (5 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> What concepts of religion are evil in your opinion ?




you and I have been through this before, if we are talking about Christianity, then its core teachings of children being born sinners worthy of internal punishment, personal redemption through human torture and sacrifice of another person (scape goating), the idea of eternal punishment for finite crimes, etc etc, many more examples.


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## Tisme (5 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> The core values of the major religions are immoral and some of them can be described as wicked, that's all it takes to be evil.
> 
> You don't have to distort the written word, its the core principles I am talking about.
> 
> _Take Christianity for example, it extols the virtue of scape goating and human sacrifice, the  whole idea of us all being sinners because Adam and Eve disobeyed god is immoral, not to mention saying we are worthy of infinite eternal hell fire, for finite crimes. When your past that you get to the concept of torturing and killing another person to free us of our sins, this sort of scape goating is immoral, and it goes on and on, plenty of wickedness and immorality in the major religions teachings._




You are aware that Christianity is based on the "New Testament" which makes a lot of the old testament pulp fiction merely historical activity?


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## Value Collector (5 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> You are aware that Christianity is based on the "New Testament" which makes a lot of the old testament pulp fiction merely historical activity?




I am not talking about the old testament, I am talking about the new testament. 

But, either way, it would be silly to dismiss the old testament, because that is where the ten commandments came from, and Jesus himself said he didn't come to change any of the laws from the original bible and all the laws will stand until he returns on judgement day.

My statement on Christianity being evil is all backed up by things from the New testament, eg it wasn't until the new testament that the threat of eternal hell fire came about, which is much worse than anything in the old testament, I mean in the old testament god would send his crew to kill you, rape your daughters and kill your cattle, but at least after that it was over, but an eternal torture in the after life, well that's much worse.


----------



## Tisme (5 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> I am not talking about the old testament, I am talking about the new testament.
> 
> .




My bad  I made the mistake of thinking of the Adam and Eve from Genesis, not the other Adam and Eve from Broadmeadows.



Value Collector said:


> My statement on Christianity being evil is all backed up by things from the New testament, eg it wasn't until the new testament that the threat of eternal hell fire came about .




Isn't that a Pope thing rather than a new testament promise?


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## Value Collector (5 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> My bad  I made the mistake of thinking of the Adam and Eve from Genesis, not the other Adam and Eve from Broadmeadows.




You sound like some one who hasn't read much of the new testament.

Adam is mentioned in Ist Corinthians, Ist Timothy, Luke and Romans 
 Eve is mentioned in 2nd Corinthians and 1st Timothy 

The concept of Original sin is a foundational principle in Christianity, it's the whole reason given for the need to torture and kill Jesus. 

Not to mention Jesus makes direct reference to the Book of genesis, So again trying to rule out the old testament is just silly.




> Isn't that a Pope thing rather than a new testament promise




No it's a Jesus thing, Gentle Jesus meek and mild Mentions Hell and Destruction in 46 Verses, he uses terms such as.

 everlasting fire
• everlasting punishment
• eternal condemnation
• the fire that shall never be quenched
• their worm does not die
• unquenchable fire

these references no doubt spawned the hell references in book 3 of the Abraham religion, the Qu'ran, where Muhammad repeats the descriptions of a fiery hell.


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## Wysiwyg (5 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> I am not talking about the old testament, I am talking about the new testament.



The whole of the planet during that era did not embrace or become influenced so that in itself tells us the scriptures were isolated to that location in time. It is only through word of mouth and interpretation of scriptures that these things propagate. The real deal would not be human oriented. 

Finding common ground in regards to what is good and bad has been an ongoing challenge throughout history. The laws of civilised modern man need be debated in a civilised manner. The laws of this country aim to protect the innocent to the extent of what is humanly possible.


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## luutzu (5 November 2014)

Wysiwyg said:


> The whole of the planet during that era did not embrace or become influenced so that in itself tells us the scriptures were isolated to that location in time. It is only through word of mouth and interpretation of scriptures that these things propagate.
> 
> Finding common ground in regards to what is good and bad has been an ongoing challenge throughout history. The laws of civilised modern man need be debated in a civilised manner. The laws of this country aim to protect the innocent to the extent of what is humanly possible.




There's only one universal god all men through all ages worship - it's Money. All else are just false gods and false prophets created by Man to get to their true god - Money.

I think I just upset everyone, even capitalists. 

Ridley Scott's upcoming "Exodus: Gods and Kings" looks like a good movie. 

You would imagine that if God take the trouble to bring on the locus, the plague, killing firstborns, parting the seas for Moses and his people... that after all that he would kinda point them to the promised land instead of letting them wondering around the desert for another 40 years!


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## luutzu (5 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> two clichÃ©s come to mind:
> 
> walk like a duck.....
> 
> lay down with dogs .......




Come on Alfalfa... that's a bit much man.

If your brother or sister or cousin commit a crime, would it be fair if you're also charged or imprison for it just because you walk like a duck and talk like a duck, came from the same family... and have a lot of genes in common? Maybe even the same religion and go to the same Church?

I read headlines after the recent raids and there's a few instances around Australia of Muslim women being spat on and pushed around by other, I supposed non-terrorist, Australians.

Anyway, why should Muslims or anyone else must stand up and protest their hatred for terrorists? Isn't that a given? Guess not if you're a Muslim.


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## luutzu (5 November 2014)

noco said:


> I have been saying for many moons now the Muslim population are moderate in small numbers but when they increase their numbers is the time they start to use their muscle.
> 
> I believe there are a lot of sleeping logs amongst the Muslim community and they are starting to raise their heads as a consequence of the recent police raids......I also believe it has brought many out in the open, way ahead of their planned time.....Maybe the police have sucked them in to see who would be protesting and I am sure the police were not disappointed.
> 
> ...




Yea, I guess we ought to bring back the White Australia policy because them Muslims breeds like rabbits, breed as much as Catholics. This thing call democracy... man if there weren't the glass walls and glass ceilings, weren't for the fact that big corporations dictate policies, we'd have a demographic problem pretty soon. 

Ah... coal is good for humanity. haha... how do you say that with a straight face. Like Ron Burgundy reading whatever is shown on the teleprompter.


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## Calliope (5 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> Muslims breeds like rabbits, breed as much as Catholics.




They certainly outbreed Catholics in Italy. The also breed far more criminals.



> 2% of Italy is Muslim, 35% of Italian Prisoners are Muslim






> (that includes)181 Imams. That’s reasonably impressive. It also suggests that Imams may have a higher rate of criminality than the general population which is not surprising.




http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dg...is-muslim-35-of-italian-prisoners-are-muslim/


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## SirRumpole (5 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> you and I have been through this before, if we are talking about Christianity, then its core teachings of children being born sinners worthy of internal punishment, personal redemption through human torture and sacrifice of another person (scape goating), the idea of eternal punishment for finite crimes, etc etc, many more examples.




So where is the line drawn between evil and misguided ?

Evil is the intention to do people harm. I don't believe that the misguided people who believe the above principles are evil, because in their minds they want to "save" people rather than do them harm.

 I think you are over reacting a trifle.


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## luutzu (5 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> They certainly outbreed Catholics in Italy. The also breed far more criminals.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dg...is-muslim-35-of-italian-prisoners-are-muslim/




So 65%, or the majority, of criminals in Italy are not Muslims. The non-Muslim population are majorily criminal as represented by that stat.

To do the 2% population but 35% criminal interpretation you must be a bit thoughtful than that. For example, of the 2% Muslims, how many are from broken homes, how many have no education or job prospects, how many fits the profile of a typical criminal - say, from poor background, tend to be discriminated against, little education to speak of... then, what kind of crimes were they charged with. Murder, White collar crimes, or your typical bag snatching and minor misdemeanors.

I'm not excusing crimes... the law is what is it and we all ought to live within it or else be punished as stated. But to make that leap from that stat and conclude that most Muslims are criminals, and imply that they committed crimes because of their faith. That is absurd and cannot be taken seriously.


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## Weatsop (5 November 2014)

*I'll write a big post that everyone will ignore!*.

I got into emergency management, and later pandemic planning, via my early career of counter-terrorism (later they took my lack of academic qualifications in pandemic control against my prior interest in bio-terror). If you think I'm boasting, you have no idea how hard it is to get a job in ***anything other than that***.

And also, if anyone knows of ANY job in the ACT area, I'll take it. Seriously. If you want to test the effects of electrodes on testicle and pay a decent wage, I'm there...

...anyway:

*Islam is at war.* 

On one side, the vast majority who have been taught that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the *great* jihad is the internal one, where you strive to become something better.

On the other side we have two forces: the first, a tiny minority (less than a million, vs a THOUSAND million) who want to call Islam "the religion of war". Allied to those - but, seriously, having no idea they're on the same side as the terrorists - all those people who also say Islam is a religion of war, not peace. Lots of newspaper and radio commentators come to mind.

The Koran clearly states that Muslims are NOT allowed to fight people who don't want to fight. Even if they know the other side is asking for a peace treaty just so they can gather more forces for another war, the Koran *forbids Muslims to fight*.

It cannot be stressed more: the terrorists are not Muslims. They say they are, but they say a LOT of idiotic ****.

They are trying, as hard as they can, to convince the world - and especially Muslims - that they represent what Islam is supposed to be. That is, in essence, what this whole war is about. *These guys are trying to take over Islam.*

So far they are failing.

And this is the most important bit:

*For every non-Muslim these terrorists have killed, they have killed 10 Muslims.*

In Saudi Arabia, there is a dictatorship that enforces this really messed up (and recent) cult of "Wahhabism". Look it up. I'll wait.

Wahhabi terrorists have been a scourge in the 100-odd years they've existed. If you doubt, have a good hard look at what life is like in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA). We don't discuss it in the same way we discuss the almost-as-bad North Korea because, simply, they have a lot of oil in the KSA.

THAT is what's messed up in Islam. Wahhabis are what we should call the terrorists. Not Muslim, not even Sunni. They're Wahhabis.

Sure, there are red-neck country-folk hill tribes in Afghanistan and Pakistan and some other places who (like almost all inbred hill-folk everywhere) treat their women like crap, and kill anyone who'd different. It's like an ancient Chinese riddle with no answer: what stops Pashtuns from killing you, if you're not Pashtun? There's a reason Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. The Pashtun national sport is "killing everyone else". 

Look hard enough and you'll see how hard Pakistan tries to direct their own Pashtuns against anyone but them. Note well: the Pakistani Taliban are *completely different* to the Afghan Taliban. Seriously, go look that up! Don't trust me. But see: different people, different enemies, different objectives.

And Pakistan managed to convince America (in a deal to let them attack Afghan Taliban in the provinces, and/pr a deal to let them take out Bin Laden) to hit the Pakistani Taliban - and now the local Pashtun have a sudden hardon for killing Yanks. Hurray for diplomacy!

*But even the Pashtun kill mostly twelver shiites.* You think they kill a lot of Americans? Look at their kills on the poor bloody *Hazara *compared with their kills on Yanks. And half the Hazara dead are kids...

So you've got Islam.

One part is Shiite (if you like, think of these as Catholics).

On the other side is Sunni (Protestant).

Part of the Sunnism is Wahhabism (think of them as the old Puritan "cold is god's way of telling us to burn more Catholics" version of Protestants)

So, recent example: the Wahhabis from Libya had lots of good weapons from the fall of Gaddafi. They go down to "help" their Sunni friends in Mali. Now the Malian Sunnis are a famous military tribe, the Taurags. ****ing badass. Those light-cavalry troops that always show up as the villain in Foreign Legion or other desert-north-Africa movies? Taurags.

Only with Tauregs, the MEN go veiled (the blue veils and turbans, so famous in the old movies), and the women go uncovered and own the property. Because religion, surprise surprise, is all about interpretation. It's culture, with validation.

(Note well: the Koran doesn't actually tell ANYONE to go veiled. Most "Muslim" dress is actually "Saudi" dress. But they're rich, so culture travels).

So these Wahhabis show up with their technicals and captured RPGs and roll the top half of Mali.

Now the short story is that the French step up (and anyone who doubts the courage of the French aren't paying attention) and flatten the idiots. But the detail shows the Tauregs were just about to kill the bastards themselves. Had actually already started.

Young Taureg women are encouraged to try the field a bit before they settle down. The Saudi Wahhabis went NUTS. There are hilarious Wahhabi letters expressing bafflement that the standard Saudi punishments against male-female fraternisation were not well received by the locals.

Here's a great write-up: https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/jihadi-middle-manager/


And those guys are fellow SUNNIS. 

The Shiites ****ing hate them.

*Most of the Muslims refugees we get in Australia are Shiites. They are our allies against the terrorists.*

That's what annoys me about our own hostility to Muslims. If we'd called it "Wahhabi" from the start, at least we'd have some perspective.

Instead we reinforce the terrorists' own point of view: that all Islam is Wahhabi. THOSE are the guys who want Sharia!

It'd be like pretending all Catholics should be IRA.

STOP LISTENING TO THEM. Look! Use your eyes! here are thousands of Muslims killed by the Wahhabis, and a few of us (by comparison...) and WE HATE ALL MUSLIMS! No!!!!! Most Muslims are on OUR SIDE!!!!


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## SirRumpole (5 November 2014)

Very interesting and thought provoking Weatsop, I think you could be right.

It's a sectarian war with the west in the middle.

OK, pick our favourite sect and to hell with the rest.


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## Tisme (5 November 2014)

Weatsop said:


> *I'll write a big post that everyone will ignore!*.
> 
> IIt'd be like pretending all Catholics should be IRA.




Fighting the urge


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## Value Collector (5 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't believe that the misguided people who believe the above principles are evil.




Neither do I, I made a point of saying I was talking about the religion, not the members. 

The title to the thread asks is Islam evil, not are the members of the Islamic faith evil. In my comment I simply stated all religion I know of are evil, I also gave the definition of evil I was using, eg immoral or wicked.

I believe most members of religions are victims of crime,they are only members because they have been lied to, and we shouldn't blame the victims of crime.


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## DeepState (5 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> So 65%, or the majority, of criminals in Italy are not Muslims. The non-Muslim population are majorily criminal as represented by that stat..



That is a seriously absurd twist of what was written.  It is statistically anomalous and totally meaningless unless intended to, say, obfuscate.



luutzu said:


> To do the 2% population but 35% criminal interpretation you must be a bit thoughtful than that. For example, of the 2% Muslims, how many are from broken homes, how many have no education or job prospects, how many fits the profile of a typical criminal - say, from poor background, tend to be discriminated against, little education to speak of... then, what kind of crimes were they charged with. Murder, White collar crimes, or your typical bag snatching and minor misdemeanors.
> 
> I'm not excusing crimes... the law is what is it and we all ought to live within it or else be punished as stated. But to make that leap from that stat and conclude that most Muslims are criminals, and imply that they committed crimes because of their faith. That is absurd and cannot be taken seriously.




The background rate of incarceration for a Muslim in Italy is 5%. Well above the national average.

The same stat for the US is 6.4%.  The national average is 1%.

African Americans, who suffer from poverty, busted families en masse, lack of prospects, lack of education (Muslims have a much higher proportion of college grads than African Americans)...have a MALE ONLY incarceration rate of 4.3%. It would be much lower if the women were included.

Given very few African Americans are Muslim, proportionately, and education is a predictor of opportunities, health etc... you have a two sample control which is adequate for purpose.  It points to Muslims being incarcerated a lot more than the general population as a proportion. Muslims are also more integrated in the US and met with greater tolerance than in many other places.

Offsetting this a bit is the fact that the Muslim age profile is more conducive to crime than the African American population.  A bit.

The figures are for currently in incarceration.  If you'd like to parse that down to view the perspective that African Americans undertake a much higher proportion of murders than Muslims who are primarily bag snatchers etc...I welcome the illumination.  

Feel free to check stats (ie. facts) for just about any country with a meaningful proportion of Muslims entering a western democracy. This might include Australia, just for example.  Same direction.  A meta-analysis would be obvious enough in developing a perspective.

Ultimately, the statement related to criminality to the point of incarceration.  Major stuff. I am reasonably sure that bag snatching is not a significant sub-population behind bars. Same with minor misdemeanors.  If you judge theft of life savings to be less odorous than dealing drugs, that's your perspective.  

The study can be taken seriously and is hardly absurd.  Muslims are greatly over-represented in the prison system given the population from which criminality to the point of incarceration is drawn.  You'd have to find some hithertofore unknown correlate to being Muslim that doesn't involve actually being Muslim to bring the observations towards the direction of your deflections, whatever these are.


For the viewers: I do not believe that being Muslim condemns a person to lead a criminal life.  The above are observations/data. However, I feel they have more than passing interest.


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## herzy (5 November 2014)

DeepState said:


> That is a seriously absurd twist of what was written.  It is statistically anomalous and totally meaningless unless intended to, say, obfuscate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A few faulty premises in there. 

You shouldn't compare African Americans to Muslims. African Americans are well-established in America. Most Muslims in the US are first or second generation immigrants. That's entirely different, and it takes a while for cultures to assimilate (e.g. Italian gangsters). 

On Italy, again, it's not particularly fair to look purely at the statistics. Almost all Muslims in Europe are (perhaps illegal) economic migrants, largely from the Magreb/northern or francophone Africa. Almost none of them are born in the countries where they are now. Almost all crime is done by these economic immigrants, most of which do happen to be Muslim - or gypsies. 

I can spell that out in terms of different SES, access to education, access to jobs, etc but I don't think I need to. 

Weatsop, amazing post. Probably the best and most accurate concise summary / overview of Islam I've read.


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## Garpal Gumnut (5 November 2014)

I watched QANDA the other night and was impressed by Sen. Brandis.

I was equally impressed by many of the audience.

I did get the feeling though that it was an us and them attitude, from the audience, more than from Brandis. 

I would like Islamists to lighten up and merge in more with the rest of Australia, as all other migrant groups have. Perhaps they will.

I hope so.

gg


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## noco (5 November 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I watched QANDA the other night and was impressed by Sen. Brandis.
> 
> I was equally impressed by many of the audience.
> 
> ...




GG, don't build your hopes up.......Islam have a set agenda and that is world domination.

If its happens here like it has in the middle east you will be given two choices.......1) convert to Islam....2) be eliminated.


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## luutzu (5 November 2014)

DeepState said:


> That is a seriously absurd twist of what was written.  It is statistically anomalous and totally meaningless unless intended to, say, obfuscate.
> 
> 
> The background rate of incarceration for a Muslim in Italy is 5%. Well above the national average.
> ...





Like I said, more thought is needed for such absurd conclusion. And RY did not fail to deliver.

If 35% of prisoners are Muslims, it mean 65% must be non-Muslims. Therefore, the majority of criminals are not Muslim. It's statistics, if you can twist it one way, why can't I twist it another? Is yours more logical?

So your logic is that if Muslims, or any group we wish to look at, if they made up 1% of the population they must make up 1% of whatever it is we look at. Else they're either over or under achievers, and whether that's good or bad depends on whether that's favourable or not to us. Either way it is all due to their religion or genetics or something about them ethnically.

OK.

Let apply that to something else.

James Packer... he's 1 of 22 million (give or take) Australians... how come his wealth is not anywhere near 1 in 22 millions of all combined Australians wealth? Maybe he's that many times smarter than the average Aussie; maybe he was born into it; maybe he's just a nice bloke and we all gave him a bit or two.

See how those "maybes" got nothing to do with the 1/22million ratio? 



> If you judge theft of life savings to be less odorous than dealing drugs...




I think the US Justice department judge it as such. I heard that there's only 1, one, criminal conviction from the GFC. And that's only because the guy was scared and confessed.

I think some 20 trillion, that's TRILLION... could be a couple trillion, but there's trillions in what I heard that was lost due to the GFC. You know, bankers and investment managers not doing their job; more than a handful of clearly fraudulent banking practices... and out of all that lost, we got ourselves one criminal. 

I mean i know drugs are bad for you and we should just say no, but worse than losing a trillion or two? You'd think when a group of people somehow lose a trillion or two and almost bring the world economy to an end, you could charge them with something... maybe economic terrorism or something.


Oh yea, table below show 74% inmates are Christians. Those Christians, they're just full of criminals aren't they?


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## luutzu (5 November 2014)

Weatsop said:


> *I'll write a big post that everyone will ignore!*.
> 
> I got into emergency management, and later pandemic planning, via my early career of counter-terrorism (later they took my lack of academic qualifications in pandemic control against my prior interest in bio-terror). If you think I'm boasting, you have no idea how hard it is to get a job in ***anything other than that***.
> 
> ...




Good post, learn a thing or two today. And I didn't say that because I don't doubt your skills with electrodes.


----------



## DeepState (5 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> Like I said, more thought is needed for such absurd conclusion. And RY did not fail to deliver.
> 
> If 35% of prisoners are Muslims, it mean 65% must be non-Muslims. Therefore, the majority of criminals are not Muslim. It's statistics, if you can twist it one way, why can't I twist it another? Is yours more logical?
> 
> ...





If James Packer's wealth is vastly above the average wealth of the average person...that would make him seriously rich.  That's not normal.  It is still a relatively small proportion of the nation's wealth, but I would classify him as filthy rich.  That's different to the humdrum, whose assets in aggregate vastly exceed his.  He is different.

If a group of 1m (Exhibit A) of 100m population commits 10k crimes and the other 99m (Exhibit B) of 100m population commits 10k crimes, that would make population A very criminally prone.  Yet you would equate the fact that crimes committed by A and B being equal to 10k a piece to mean that there is equal crime committed by A and B.  Correct.  However this debate is all about criminality...as opposed to crimes committed.  This is a point you seem to have overlooked. Number of crimes committed is completely useless for the subject to hand. To make it useful, you need additional information. There is no twisting required on my part. A is criminally prone.  

This is about whether Muslims are more criminally prone.  If they are or not, depending on their relative population, they may make up the smaller or larger portion of total criminality.  As a result, the use of absolute numbers of incarceration are quite irrelevant.

When a sub-population commits a lot more crime proportionally to the wider populace, something is going on. For this kind of situation, absolute figures matter much less than proportions.


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## luutzu (6 November 2014)

DeepState said:


> If James Packer's wealth is vastly above the average wealth of the average person...that would make him seriously rich.  That's not normal.  It is still a relatively small proportion of the nation's wealth, but I would classify him as filthy rich.  That's different to the humdrum, whose assets in aggregate vastly exceed his.  He is different.
> 
> If a group of 1m (Exhibit A) of 100m population commits 10k crimes and the other 99m (Exhibit B) of 100m population commits 10k crimes, that would make population A very criminally prone.  Yet you would equate the fact that crimes committed by A and B being equal to 10k a piece to mean that there is equal crime committed by A and B.  Correct.  However this debate is all about criminality...as opposed to crimes committed.  This is a point you seem to have overlooked. Number of crimes committed is completely useless for the subject to hand. To make it useful, you need additional information. There is no twisting required on my part. A is criminally prone.
> 
> ...




From Wikipedia: roughly 48% of Americans are Protestants, 22% are Catholics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

From that table above, 39% of inmates are Catholics while 35% are Protestant. 
So Catholics are more inclined to a life of crime then? More than Protestant apparently.

I thought it was taught at uni that correlation does not equal causation. No?

What make you certain that those Muslims in prison are in prison because of their religion? Maybe they are in prison because they enjoy crime (and also attend Mosques); maybe in because they can't afford a good lawyer (and attend Mosques); maybe they're ill-adjusted youth recently migrated to the US with no parents or parents too busy to make ends meet to see what companies their kids keep (and they attend Mosques)...

When I was at school, your kind of logic really help me against bullies though: I'm Asian, all Asians know Kung Fu like Bruce Lee, therefore I must know Kung Fu and it's best not to mess with me.


----------



## DeepState (6 November 2014)

herzy said:


> A few faulty premises in there.
> 
> 1. You shouldn't compare African Americans to Muslims. African Americans are well-established in America. Most Muslims in the US are first or second generation immigrants. That's entirely different, and it takes a while for cultures to assimilate (e.g. Italian gangsters).
> 
> 2. On Italy, again, it's not particularly fair to look purely at the statistics. Almost all Muslims in Europe are (perhaps illegal) economic migrants, largely from the Magreb/northern or francophone Africa. Almost none of them are born in the countries where they are now. Almost all crime is done by these economic immigrants, most of which do happen to be Muslim - or gypsies.




1. In the United States, crime by immigrants is lower than for non-immigrants.  This strengthens the argument put forward previously.

2. I have no basis to run a control in Italy. However, it does seem reasonable that poverty relates to crime.  But then, what of the gap between observation and the regressed estimate?  Do you really think the difference in criminality could be anywhere near being explained by the factors you imagine?  That is an enormous gap.  It is made even more so by the fact that this is incarceration level crime, not petty theft from a hapless tourist.

If gypsies are highly criminal, it still plays to the point that Muslims show higher criminality.  We have yet to sort out causality.  Does being a thieving Gypsie cause one to become Muslim?  Does being Muslim cause one to become a thieving Gypsie?  Given crime levels amongst Muslims in other parts of the world exceed that of the general populace, it is hard to pin the gap on the presence of Gypsies.  I am willing to concede that it plays a role in the specific Italian data.  I do not concede that it reverses the observation that the Muslim population experiences a high level of criminality in general. 

Perhaps the Muslim world has been economically unsuccessful.  This ultimately translates to crime.  The reverse also holds true, but the flow of that argument is much weaker for the subject to hand.

No-one would argue that African Americans are exactly advantaged.  It has not been argued that Muslims are particularly destitute when they have better education and fare better on a range of different measures.  Thus a range of economic factors can be set aside as matters to amerliorate the gap.  Their inclusion strengthens the Muslim factor as an explanatory variable.

One thing which might make this all go away is the belief that the categorisations are spuriously selected.  That is, Muslim and African American are just random concepts that have no real meaning but happen to produce meaningful stats.  Could be.  Seriously doubt it.


----------



## DeepState (6 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> From Wikipedia: roughly 48% of Americans are Protestants, 22% are Catholics
> 
> From that table above, 39% of inmates are Catholics while 35% are Protestant.
> So Catholics are more inclined to a life of crime then? More than Protestant apparently.
> ...




Catholics have a higher rate of criminality than do Protestants.  Neither of them are anywhere near the level of criminality of the Muslim population.

Correlation does not equal causation.  Nonetheless correlation is generally indicated when causality exists. Correlation is strongly present.  It does not mean that causality is conclusively proven. At this point we make the observation that the criminality within the Muslim population exceeds population averages and does so after allowing for standard considerations like income, demographics, family situations... which largely ameliorate many opening concerns and leave the Muslim identity as strongly significant. 




luutzu said:


> What make you certain that those Muslims in prison are in prison because of their religion? Maybe they are in prison because they enjoy crime (and also attend Mosques); maybe in because they can't afford a good lawyer (and attend Mosques); maybe they're ill-adjusted youth recently migrated to the US with no parents or parents too busy to make ends meet to see what companies their kids keep (and they attend Mosques)...
> 
> When I was at school, your kind of logic really help me against bullies though: I'm Asian, all Asians know Kung Fu like Bruce Lee, therefore I must know Kung Fu and it's best not to mess with me.




Perhaps Muslims do enjoy crime.   That would provide causality in relation to Muslims and criminality. Other factors you have raised can be controlled for by comparison to the African American population in the US.  It is also present in other countries where strong and more generous social safety nets are available.  Let's not get into welfare.

We can never be sure of causality. If certainty is the standard then perhaps we should just randomly move about because we cannot be sure that take a step will actually move us forward.  We only know that it will probably do so, not certainly.

On Kung Fu, beyond about Grade 1, it was simple to know that proficiency was highly uncommon and very unlikely to have been achieved whilst under the age of 10.  But then, fortunately for you, my kind of logic did not actually enter their brains.  They made an error which is known as representativeness bias.  That is not part of my logic, despite your inability to recognize otherwise.  It is demonstrably part of the train of arguments you have presented.


----------



## luutzu (6 November 2014)

DeepState said:


> Catholics have a higher rate of criminality than do Protestants.  Neither of them are anywhere near the level of criminality of the Muslim population.
> 
> Correlation does not equal causation.  Nonetheless correlation is generally indicated when causality exists. Correlation is strongly present.  It does not mean that causality is conclusively proven. At this point we make the observation that the criminality within the Muslim population exceeds population averages and does so after allowing for standard considerations like income, demographics, family situations... which largely ameliorate many opening concerns and leave the Muslim identity as strongly significant.
> 
> ...




haha... Correlation does not equal causation, but if causation exists it indicates correlation, correlation therefore means causation - sometimes, definitely here when RY said so. 

What have you been smoking RY?

There were a couple of HS kids that thought a little and didn't have that representative bias of yours... one tried and out of reflex I blocked then followed by two punches and that dude back right off... woah man, he knows Kung Fu. Waaataaaa!

Silly kid right? But these Muslims (and Protestants)... they commit crimes because Islam (and Luther?) made them inclined to. 

Anyway... time to meditate and be as one with nature.


----------



## Tisme (6 November 2014)

DeepState said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Perhaps they do..it is probably more exciting than being compelled to prayers.

The Italian lockup rate of muslims is apparently attributed to drug dealing, theft, falsifying documents and resisting arrest. 

I seem to remember Italian 2nd gens were good at this, displaced by Vietnamese 2nd gens, and there is no secret about the wave of 2nd gen middle easterners going one step further and joining the 1%ers in bikies gangs, and I'm led to believe the islanders are getting in the swing of things. My prediction is the next wave will be the 2nd gen Africans.

Of course if you live in WA, you probably have the house locked up like a fortress from any number of thieves and violence.


----------



## Calliope (6 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> Perhaps they do..it is probably more exciting than being compelled to prayers.




Of course Muslims enjoy crime and they have no problems combining crime and prayers. Their well publicised depraved acts in Mosul show that they thoroughly enjoyed committing murder, rape and pillage, even to the extent of holding up severed heads to show how much they enjoyed their barbaric activities. 

Deprived backgrounds? Scores of young and devout Muslims from stable backgrounds in Australia are making every effort to join them and join in the fun while it lasts. And no doubt they will take their prayer mats with them.


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> I seem to remember Italian 2nd gens were good at this, displaced by Vietnamese 2nd gens, and there is no secret about the wave of 2nd gen middle easterners going one step further and joining the 1%ers in bikies gangs, and I'm led to believe the islanders are getting in the swing of things. My prediction is the next wave will be the 2nd gen Africans.



Could early arrivals in Australia from Great Britain have been prone to continuing on with their chosen (or necessitated) path of crime. Ned K. is the most infamous. Though stealing money or property pales to insignificance against mutilation and mass execution style murder.

The vengeance factor is a strong motivator in people.  It is inherent in some individuals and is evident in some groups. Something they carry with them for life and pass from generation to generation.


----------



## luutzu (6 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> Of course Muslims enjoy crime and they have no problems combining crime and prayers. Their well publicised depraved acts in Mosul show that they thoroughly enjoyed committing murder, rape and pillage, even to the extent of holding up severed heads to show how much they enjoyed their barbaric activities.
> 
> Deprived backgrounds? Scores of young and devout Muslims from stable backgrounds in Australia are making every effort to join them and join in the fun while it lasts. And no doubt they will take their prayer mats with them.
> 
> View attachment 60160




So what's the percentage of the Muslim population are in prison? 10%? 20%? Can't be 50% right? Say it's half. If Islam made people more inclined to crime, it's only doing a halfarse job. You would think that if something causes people to act in a certain way, that thing would cause all those who caught it to act in a certain way, all of them, not some or half or most of them.

Like ebola... if you caught it and have no medical treatment, you'd die. Hence, ebola would cause people to incline to dying. 

Here, we got some criminals who also happen to be Muslims... that obviously mean Islam make criminals.

Give me the stats and I decide ey?


----------



## bellenuit (6 November 2014)

Yes, Islam is inherently evil. Why else would 500 people, presumably normal in most ways, get together and do such a horrible act. Whether the accusation was the result of a personal vendetta or not, the mob was motivated to undertake this act by a local mullah using the "authority" that he believes comes from the words of the Quran. 

*Dozens arrested in slaying of Pakistani couple accused of desecrating Quran*

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/05/world/asia/pakistan-couple-slain/index.html


----------



## herzy (6 November 2014)

DeepState said:


> 1. In the United States, crime by immigrants is lower than for non-immigrants.  This strengthens the argument put forward previously.




err, no, it doesn't. It again conflates a multitude of factors. Are all immigrants created equal? No. 



DeepState said:


> 2. I have no basis to run a control in Italy. However, it does seem reasonable that poverty relates to crime.  But then, what of the gap between observation and the regressed estimate?  Do you really think the difference in criminality could be anywhere near being explained by the factors you imagine?  That is an enormous gap.  It is made even more so by the fact that this is incarceration level crime, not petty theft from a hapless tourist.




It could easily warp results, if almost all Muslims in Italy come from these backgrounds (hence almost all are criminals). Remember, as you said - it's proportion that matters, not total numbers. Aborigines are 10x overrepresented in Australian jails. By your logic, a) this enormous gap can't be explained by a range of societal factors and b) it's definitely thus because they believe in dreamtime. 




DeepState said:


> If gypsies are highly criminal, it still plays to the point that Muslims show higher criminality.  We have yet to sort out causality.  Does being a thieving Gypsie cause one to become Muslim?  Does being Muslim cause one to become a thieving Gypsie?  Given crime levels amongst Muslims in other parts of the world exceed that of the general populace, it is hard to pin the gap on the presence of Gypsies.  I am willing to concede that it plays a role in the specific Italian data.  I do not concede that it reverses the observation that the Muslim population experiences a high level of criminality in general.




I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm disagreeing with any inferences drawn from that that relate to Islam. Yes, Muslims are overrepresented in jail populations, and hence display higher criminality than others, at least in the US and Italy. That's about the only conclusion one can draw, and nobody is denying that. 



DeepState said:


> No-one would argue that African Americans are exactly advantaged.  It has not been argued that Muslims are particularly destitute when they have better education and fare better on a range of different measures.  Thus a range of economic factors can be set aside as matters to amerliorate the gap.  Their inclusion strengthens the Muslim factor as an explanatory variable.




How exactly did you strengthen your argument that Islam is an explanatory variable? Almost all North Africans are Muslim, and are hence susceptible to the destitution, lack of education, and range of economic factors that create the gap which you referred to. Nothing necessarily to do with Islam, despite almost all of Italy's immigrants coming from there. 

Luutzu sums it up well. 



luutzu said:


> haha... Correlation does not equal causation, but if causation exists it indicates correlation, correlation therefore means causation - sometimes, definitely here when RY said so.
> 
> What have you been smoking RY?






luutzu said:


> There were a couple of HS kids that thought a little and didn't have that representative bias of yours... one tried and out of reflex I blocked then followed by two punches and that dude back right off... woah man, he knows Kung Fu. Waaataaaa!
> 
> Silly kid right? But these Muslims (and Protestants)... they commit crimes because Islam (and Luther?) made them inclined to.
> 
> Anyway... time to meditate and be as one with nature.




That's a perfect example of confirmation bias Luutzu - people see what they expect to see, which reinforces their previously held (mis)conceptions.



Tisme said:


> Perhaps they do..it is probably more exciting than being compelled to prayers.
> 
> The Italian lockup rate of muslims is apparently attributed to drug dealing, theft, falsifying documents and resisting arrest.
> 
> I seem to remember Italian 2nd gens were good at this, displaced by Vietnamese 2nd gens, and there is no secret about the wave of 2nd gen middle easterners going one step further and joining the 1%ers in bikies gangs, and I'm led to believe the islanders are getting in the swing of things. My prediction is the next wave will be the 2nd gen Africans.




Exactly.


----------



## Calliope (6 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> So what's the percentage of the Muslim population are in prison? 10%? 20%? Can't be 50% right? Say it's half. If Islam made people more inclined to crime, it's only doing a halfarse job.




You seem a little confused luutzu. My comment was on whether they enjoy committing atrocities, and judging by the brutal antics of ISIL in Iraq and Syria and Boko Haram in Nigeria, they certainly do.


----------



## Craton (6 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> The core values of the major religions are immoral and some of them can be described as wicked, that's all it takes to be evil.
> 
> You don't have to distort the written word, its the core principles I am talking about.
> 
> Take Christianity for example, it extols the virtue of scape goating and human sacrifice, the whole idea of us all being sinners because Adam and Eve disobeyed god is immoral, not to mention saying we are worthy of infinite eternal hell fire, for finite crimes. When your past that you get to the concept of torturing and killing another person to free us of our sins, this sort of scape goating is immoral, and it goes on and on, plenty of wickedness and immorality in the major religions teachings.





I see your point VC but bear with me. Christianity takes its lead from the bible, from the holy scriptures correct?

If that is so, then as the bible is a collection of the spoken word, written word and folklore (legend/tale/myth) all penned with the intention (evil or otherwise) of imposing on the masses and therefore, my argument holds true.


----------



## Value Collector (6 November 2014)

Craton said:


> my argument holds true.




Not really, you said



> I don't think any religion is inherently evil, just the practitioners that want to interpret the written word into their own distorted and perverted world view and impose that onto the masses that are inherently evil




You give the impression here that the all religions must be based on sound virtues, and it is only some individual practitioners who distort the texts that are evil, However what I am saying is that the original texts themselves as they were written have teachings which are immoral teachings.

The religions that have been built around these texts have adopted some of these immoral teachings, some of the biggest foundational ideas of these religions, eg the Jesus sacrifice, are universally held by all the various christian religions, So it is not a matter of people distorting the text.

--------

But you have kind of muddied the water here, the religion is not the book, the religion is was the practitioners preach and accept. eg the catholic religion is not the bible, its based on the bible, and has adopted some of the immoral concepts written in it, but its not the bible.

If you don't think all religions have immoral teachings, can you please name one that doesn't?


----------



## Value Collector (6 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> haha... Correlation does not equal causation, but if causation exists it indicates correlation, correlation therefore means causation - sometimes, definitely here when RY said so.
> 
> What have you been smoking RY?




Here is referring to the "false cause fallacy", It's one of the many common logical fallacies people can make.

eg,
_
*You presumed that a real or perceived relationship between things means that one is the cause of the other.

Many people confuse correlation (things happening together or in sequence) for causation (that one thing actually causes the other to happen). Sometimes correlation is coincidental, or it may be attributable to a common cause.

Example: Pointing to a fancy chart, Roger shows how temperatures have been rising over the past few centuries, whilst at the same time the numbers of pirates have been decreasing; thus pirates cool the world and global warming is a hoax*._

pointing to a high prison population of muslims, doesn't automatically suggest it's the "muslim" part that's the problem, there could be other factors as already pointed out,


----------



## Craton (6 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Not really, you said
> 
> You give the impression here that the all religions must be based on sound virtues, and it is only some individual practitioners who distort the texts that are evil, However what I am saying is that the original texts themselves as they were written have teachings which are immoral teachings.
> 
> ...




Murky water indeed. 

Now VC, you make the point for me. The original texts were immoral teachings so by extrapolation, the writers of the teachings were immoral to start with and again, hence my view that religion per se isn't evil, it's the practitioners. Anyhow, in essence I agree with you.

Some clarity on the meaning of the word religion using Google Fu may help (me):


> Religion
> 
> /rɪˈlɪdʒ(ə)n/
> 
> ...




Not being a theologist, the impression is that our society makes out that religion is virtuous and pious. I do not subscribe to this thinking although the Ten Commandments comes close, especially if the word love is substituted for the word "God". Again and as you say, it's the preachers that hold sway of the followers. Anyways, the sheeple that follow blindly are as much to blame as the immoral preachers.

Is Agnosticism or Atheism a religion?


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 November 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, Islam is inherently evil. Why else would 500 people, presumably normal in most ways, get together and do such a horrible act. Whether the accusation was the result of a personal vendetta or not, *the mob was motivated to undertake this act by a local mullah using the "authority" that he believes comes from the words of the Quran. *



Some primate imitating a mullah calls for the killing of two adults and an unborn because he can. Calls in the troop to do it = gutless ******.


----------



## bellenuit (6 November 2014)

Craton said:


> hence my view that religion per se isn't evil, it's the practitioners.




I think a significant part of the dogma of most major religions is inherently evil and some of the practitioners are. It is not a benign dogma that is misinterpreted by some, but is (parts of) itself inherently evil. 

Every religion has a majority of practitioners who are basically good people. They are good because they chose to ignore the parts of the dogma that is evil and concentrate on the good. They cherry pick the dogma and live by those creeds that they regard as good. However, even though basically good, their attitudes can still often be influenced by parts of the dogma that a humanistic society would regard as repugnant. Is it a coincidence that the two people on this and similar threads that are the least accepting of homosexuality are also the (only?) two who categorise themselves as devout Christians? I believe this attitude comes directly from their religious beliefs.

Equally many of those who chose to do evil deeds do so not by subverting the dogma of their religion, but by choosing those parts that are intrinsically evil as their guidance. Westboro Baptist Church followers are a good example of such Christians and of course ISAL in the Muslim world. Listening to some of the spokespeople from such groups, it is often hard to see where their interpretation of the fundamentals of their religion's dogma is any less valid than the mainstream. It is often just a matter of which parts to chose or emphasise.


----------



## Tink (6 November 2014)

_Is it a coincidence that the two people on this and similar threads that are the least accepting of homosexuality are also the (only?) two who categorise themselves as devout Christians? I believe this attitude comes directly from their religious beliefs_

Bellenuit, if you are talking about me, I have only ever stood up for 'Traditional Marriage'.


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, Islam is inherently evil. Why else would 500 people, presumably normal in most ways, get together and do such a horrible act. Whether the accusation was the result of a personal vendetta or not, the mob was motivated to undertake this act by a local mullah using the "authority" that he believes comes from the words of the Quran.
> 
> *Dozens arrested in slaying of Pakistani couple accused of desecrating Quran*
> 
> http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/05/world/asia/pakistan-couple-slain/index.html




You should watch Chomsky. He's a very smart and funny guy. Probably the most intellectually honest guy I come across.

A quote: "If they do it, it's terrorism. If we do it, it's counter-terrorism".

*On National Interest:* What is national interest? The Realist school on International Relations define it as a thing that nations do that serves their interests. This is an illusion. It assumes that the CEO of General Motors share the same interest as the person who clean its floors. They share very different interests and almost always it's the CEO's and GM's interests that become the national interest.


----

But that's outrageous! Why if the people knew that, they'd be upset. Hence the media. Hence, the budget always favouring the rich but it's people power; the poor work day and night and could barely make ends meet but they gotta work harder and stop complaining. If there's anything to complain about, blame it on the other poor and lazy welfare cheats... that and terrorists. 

And our soldiers? Our heroes? Yea mate, we know it's 3% inflation but times are tough and 1.5% increase is as good as it gets. We all got to make sacrifices and **** happens (to you guys) sometimes but that's what our nation need... heroes, and heroes don't need to pay the bills or feed their family that much. Oh hey Gina and Mr Palmer sir, hey there Big Aussie and Big Coal and Iron... who needs more money on unnecessary mining tax and carbon blah blah blah 

Anyway, when it serves our national interests we see no evil and hear no evil, and do a lot of freedom freeing democracy thingy. But when it serves no purpose, no immediate purpose, mehh... ebola! Ebola kills everyone indiscriminately, worst than ISIS! But mate, ebola don't travel, and since ebola kills everyone equally, it's not evil.

Don't get me wrong, I think our system of gov't is the best there is. Just we might want to be a bit more objective and see reality for what it is. That way, hopefully we could demand some changes. This us good them evil... save it for a Stallone movie or something - with all due respect to Mr Stallone.


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2014)

Tink said:


> _Is it a coincidence that the two people on this and similar threads that are the least accepting of homosexuality are also the (only?) two who categorise themselves as devout Christians? I believe this attitude comes directly from their religious beliefs_
> 
> Bellenuit, if you are talking about me, I have only ever stood up for 'Traditional Marriage'.




How does homosexuality harm "traditional marriage"?

By all means stand up for something. But that does not always mean you have to step on something else to stand for that something.

Yea, traditional marriage is so wonderful, no one ever cheats, they both always raise their kids right... it's so wonderful it shouldn't be shared with those queers. If they have it, there will be nothing left.


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Here is referring to the "false cause fallacy", It's one of the many common logical fallacies people can make.
> 
> eg,
> _
> ...




Yea. But i think his ethno/religious pride got the better of him here though.


----------



## bellenuit (7 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> You should watch Chomsky




Is that the best you can come up with. I was referring to a group of 500 Muslims burning to death a Christian couple, the lady being pregnant, under the direction of a Mullah based on some trumped up blasphemy charge and you dismiss it off hand by saying I should watch Chomsky. Every time someone mentions some atrocity committed by Muslims or in the name of Islam, you seem unable to express any condemnation or acknowledgement that the act is horrific, but instead try to obfuscate by alluding to something Chomsky said or wrote.


----------



## darkhorse70 (7 November 2014)

Currently I work in a nursing home where I feed old people. Some times after work I have a chat for about an hour with an old man living there.


Now this old man is very intelligent.  He has pursued the aquisitiin of knowledge for a very long time. He currently has cancer and refuses it will kill him. He is a full blooded aussie, and he has the koran sitting on his desk. He told me he wanted to figure out why so many peope flock to this religion.

So far he is 3/4 through with no answers. He even pointed out quotes to me where it allows man to legally rape his wife and slaves which he owns. Now to me that already proves that somethings not right. It also tells follows that if you dont listen to the koran you are an evil doer and your head should be chopped off. Lol


----------



## darkhorse70 (7 November 2014)

No offence to my muslim friends.


----------



## Tisme (7 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> No offence to my muslim friends.




If you had read "The Book" you would know your friends are at best fair weather ones should the occasion arise they are ordered to follow the path. That is what it takes to be a true believer  ... "The Book" above all others.

The pecking order or obedience is simple and guiltless; 1) the rules prescribed, 2) the orders given by council 3) the local leader 4) ......... n-1) friendship, n) conscience.


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> So far he is 3/4 through with no answers. He even pointed out quotes to me where it allows man to legally rape his wife and slaves which he owns. Now to me that already proves that somethings not right. It also tells follows that if you dont listen to the koran you are an evil doer and your head should be chopped off. Lol




The Bible says the same stuff, except it was wriiten a few centuries earlier when stoning was more popular than beheading, In the bible it lays out the rules for slavery, tells you how you need to drive a spike through the ear of your slave to mark him as a slave, Jesus himself says "slaves obey your master", it says non believers should be stoned, gays should be stoned, witches should be killed (which is causing trouble in Africa now as some local religions have witch doctors who are being burned alive by the new Christians), etc etc

I challenge people here to find an immoral teaching in the qu'ran (Koran), which does not have a similar idea mirrored in the bible.


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

Craton said:


> I do not subscribe to this thinking although the Ten Commandments comes close, especially if the word love is substituted for the word "God".




The ten commandments is a rubbish list, and any thinking person could put together a better list, out of the ten there is only a handful that are worth anything, for example the first 4 are worthless, and could easily be replaced by much more meaningful sentiments.


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

Craton said:


> Is Agnosticism or Atheism a religion?




No,

Agnosticism is just a statement referring to your position regarding knowledge on subject.

Atheism is a statement describing a persons position on religion, it means "lack of belief in a religion"

Atheisim is one answer to one question, "do you believe a god exists" if the answer is no, then your an atheist, that doesn't make you a member of a religion,


----------



## SirRumpole (7 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> I challenge people here to find an immoral teaching in the qu'ran (Koran), which does not have a similar idea mirrored in the bible.




True, but at least the Christians have advanced somewhat and no longer believe in slavery whereas some Muslim groups kidnap girls and women and put them into bondage.

Christianity has at least recognised it needs to change with the times, Islam wants to stay in the Middle Ages.


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

Tink said:


> Bellenuit, if you are talking about me, I have only ever stood up for 'Traditional Marriage'.




Is that where a man sells/exchanges his daughter for cattle or pieces of silver?

Because the idea of a man marrying a women in a consensual union based on love is a relatively new thing, For most of our history traditional marriage involved selling off your daughter.

or do you mean the traditional marriage from the bible where Abraham has many wives? is it polygamy you want?

or do you mean the 19th century traditional marriage of 1 white man to 1 white woman? Are you against interracial marriages?  because these where protested in the 20th century.

What exactly is your concept of a traditional marriage?


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> True, but at least the Christians have advanced somewhat and no longer believe in slavery whereas some Muslim groups kidnap girls and women and put them into bondage.
> 
> Christianity has at least recognised it needs to change with the times, Islam wants to stay in the Middle Ages.




In the more developed countries yes, that's because they are being held accountable and secular society won't put up with it, but never forget how they acted when they truly had the power.

In less developed countries Christianity is still causing a lot of trouble, In Uganda the Christian government has made homosexuality a crime where you face life imprisonment or death, It's a crime to be an atheist, other African countries are having the traditional regional religions members being burned alive for witch craft, condoms are being banned in areas that are rife with aids, birth control denied to woman( which is actually vital for getting areas out of poverty).


----------



## Wysiwyg (7 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> *Anyway, when it serves our national interests we see no evil and hear no evil, and do a lot of freedom freeing democracy thingy. But when it serves no purpose, no immediate purpose, mehh... ebola! Ebola kills everyone indiscriminately, worst than ISIS!* But mate, ebola don't travel, and since ebola kills everyone equally, it's not evil.



Your thinking? Don't you think it's distorted by comparing one situation to another that are not the same? Another poster here used the word "apologist". An apologist is someone who defends a controversial issue, ideology or belief. How deep does your apologising run? Are you a passive adherent to the Quran? Are you a moderate swinger between passive and extreme or are you (and I don't think you are) a fanatical believer that manifests violent behavior? 



> *Don't get me wrong, I think our system of gov't is the best there is.* Just we might want to be a bit more objective and see reality for what it is. That way, hopefully we could demand some changes. This us good them evil... save it for a Stallone movie or something - with all due respect to Mr Stallone.



Well you are in the right country to make democratic changes if you want. The steps are :-

1) Join a political party or create your own. (e.g. fat boy Clive and the motor enthusiast party dude)
2) Campaign your electorate announcing your beliefs, ideologies, policies etc.
3) Wait for the end of voting day to see if the majority has accepted your campaign
4) Lobby for the parties policies with all the other political parties and come to a compromise 

You see, you can whinge but that is what minorities do. However the best part about living in Australia with the laws of the land and the leading political parties of the time is:-

if you don't like it, you can f off to another country  and take the **** in your head with you.


----------



## Tisme (7 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Is that where a man sells/exchanges his daughter for cattle or pieces of silver?
> 
> Because the idea of a man marrying a women in a consensual union based on love is a relatively new thing, For most of our history traditional marriage involved selling off your daughter.
> 
> ...




Drawing a bit of long bow with some of those statements, for effect no doubt, but I know I get into hot water when I suggest marriage should be based around procreation and child rearing. The love thing doesn't need a ceremony/certificate IMO, and in my instance my love and affection wasn't elevated or devalued by proclaiming this and that, rings, suit, meal, etc.....

I would suspect marriages in the early days were one man multiple wives, because blokes had a tendency to die of exhaustion, warring and whoring, leaving an imbalance of men vs. women in the local tribe? I don't know because I wasn't there.... or too busy in my previous lives as Mark Antony, Napoleon, Ramesses II, and so on.


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> Drawing a bit of long bow with some of those statements, for effect no doubt, but I know I get into hot water when I suggest marriage should be based around procreation and child rearing.
> .




Not really, all the things I mentioned have been considered traditional in the past, some still are. And it's true the things that people call traditional now are not really that old. 

In my opinion you don't need a certificate to be married, if two people make a commitment to each other, they are married, However if the government is going to get involved in the marriage business, they should do it fairly, and recognise all marriages, especially when they offer privileges to those marriages they recognise. 



> The love thing doesn't need a ceremony/certificate IMO, and in my instance my love and affection wasn't elevated or devalued by proclaiming this and that, rings, suit, meal, etc.....




What your talking about here is a wedding, not a marriage, your marriage probably existed before you wedding and hopefully long after it.


----------



## Craton (7 November 2014)

bellenuit said:


> I think a significant part of the dogma of most major religions is inherently evil </snip>






> Dogma: (from here)
> 
> Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.[1] It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. The term can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, religion, or issued decisions of political authorities.




Therein lies the problem, "an authority" lays down the principle/s, the dogma and I'll bet none of these "authorities" had altruist motives other than to further their own personal agendas.


----------



## Craton (7 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> The ten commandments is a rubbish list, and any thinking person could put together a better list, out of the ten there is only a handful that are worth anything, for example the first 4 are worthless, and could easily be replaced by much more meaningful sentiments.




A rubbish list eh. I'd venture that all the worlds holy texts are a bit rubbish. I agree a person in today's world could put together a far better altruist list but we are talking about ideologies that were laid down a long time ago as a basis for social fabric, a way to live life in that fabric and one had to follow blindly no. Blind devotion? 
I can't come to that.

However, I do subscribe that religion is meant as a way to live with respect, harmony, to do good and with a higher purpose upon this earth. I certainly don't subscribe to warring, killing, murdering et al in the name of religion that's for sure and those that do, are evil.


----------



## Wysiwyg (7 November 2014)

Craton said:


> I certainly don't subscribe to warring, killing, murdering et al in the name of religion that's for sure and those that do, are evil.



And that is the majority belief. Even non-religious practice. Maybe it is the 'fear of death' in the majority that sways their thinking such? People certainly don't lean toward dying. At the root of life is survival.


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

Craton said:


> However, I do subscribe that religion is meant as a way to live with respect, harmony, to do good.




And smoking is just meant to be a harmless leisure activity, but things don't always work out that way, and when we learn the real side effects are harmful, we should avoid the dangerous activity.

 Can you think of a single positive benefit of religion that can not be achieved in other ways?

And if you can't think of any positive benefit that can not be achieved in other ways, why take the pill with the terrible side effects, it's my opinion that religion should be avoided.


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## SirRumpole (7 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Can you think of a single positive benefit of religion that can not be achieved in other ways?




Maybe we should ask why some people are attracted to religion in the first place.

For some, it's family pressure. They are born into a particular religion and it owns them for the rest of their lives. For some it's like a social club that gives them a sense of belonging. In that respect it's mostly harmless.

 Some people are drawn into the church because it gives them hope for an afterlife which science does not. According to science, the universe is pitiless and cares nothing for them. The church gives them a feeling that something does care about them and will look after them after death. How do you achieve those comforting thoughts  in "other ways" ?


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> For some, it's family pressure. They are born into a particular religion and it owns them for the rest of their lives. ?




Yep, and kept there with threats of hell fire or in some sects threats of actual death.



> For some it's like a social club that gives them a sense of belonging.




Plenty of good social clubs around without all the fanatical super natural woo.



> In that respect it's mostly harmless.




Unless your group looks down on gays, then it can be harmful, you could end up subjecting future children to torment or you could end up hating on others in society.



> Some people are drawn into the church because it gives them hope for an afterlife which science does not.




False hope though, and it's not really free, if you have to give up other parts of your world view based on reality.



> According to science, the universe is pitiless and cares nothing for them. The church gives them a feeling that something does care about them and will look after them after death. How do you achieve those comforting thoughts  in "other ways"




Understanding the reality of the universe is very inspiring, and knowing this life is probably all we have can lead you to embrace your life and other people in refreshing ways that nothing else can. There has been studies that show religious people tend to be more afraid of death than atheists, The group that feared death the most was roman Catholics, all that teaching of hell and purgatory tends to weigh on the elderly, an atheist has nothing to fear in death.

I don't fear death at all, I fear the very late stages of life when my body will break down, But religion can't help you with that, even the religious peoples knees and eyes break down, but when I breathe my last breath, I believe it will be over.

Religious folk have to worry when they breathe their last breathe that the spook show starts, will they be in heaven or hell, did they choose the right god etc etc.


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## luutzu (7 November 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Is that the best you can come up with. I was referring to a group of 500 Muslims burning to death a Christian couple, the lady being pregnant, under the direction of a Mullah based on some trumped up blasphemy charge and you dismiss it off hand by saying I should watch Chomsky. Every time someone mentions some atrocity committed by Muslims or in the name of Islam, you seem unable to express any condemnation or acknowledgement that the act is horrific, but instead try to obfuscate by alluding to something Chomsky said or wrote.




Of course it's horrific, all killings, all murders are. Do I really need to say that they are?

The issue I raised is that it's dishonest, it's false morality when you look at crimes and murder committed by one group and you say they're evil, all of them, even the ones that didn't have anything to do with the killing... they're bad and evil. 

Then kinda ignore all the other "good" kind of killing good Christians do over the centuries right up to now.

Unless you run for public office or want to serve some interest group, to say that one groups' atrocities is bad while another (your group) is good is a bit ill informed and intellectually dishonest.


The US have drones flying 24/7 over the Middle East, and at any moment the guy in a crowd near you could be targeted and you be blown up to bits. That is call anti-terrorism... but if they did anything similar, why that's pure evil savagery.


----------



## Julia (7 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> How does homosexuality harm "traditional marriage"?
> 
> By all means stand up for something. But that does not always mean you have to step on something else to stand for that something.
> 
> Yea, traditional marriage is so wonderful, no one ever cheats, they both always raise their kids right... it's so wonderful it shouldn't be shared with those queers. If they have it, there will be nothing left.



Typical sarcasm.



bellenuit said:


> Is that the best you can come up with. I was referring to a group of 500 Muslims burning to death a Christian couple, the lady being pregnant, under the direction of a Mullah based on some trumped up blasphemy charge and you dismiss it off hand by saying I should watch Chomsky. Every time someone mentions some atrocity committed by Muslims or in the name of Islam, you seem unable to express any condemnation or acknowledgement that the act is horrific, but instead try to obfuscate by alluding to something Chomsky said or wrote.



+1.  luutzu, your style seems to be to quite rudely run off with non sequiturs full of emotive language, ignoring the actual comment to which you claim to be responding.  It inhibits genuine discussion imo.




Value Collector said:


> Is that where a man sells/exchanges his daughter for cattle or pieces of silver?
> 
> Because the idea of a man marrying a women in a consensual union based on love is a relatively new thing, For most of our history traditional marriage involved selling off your daughter.
> 
> ...






SirRumpole said:


> Maybe we should ask why some people are attracted to religion in the first place.
> 
> For some, it's family pressure. They are born into a particular religion and it owns them for the rest of their lives. For some it's like a social club that gives them a sense of belonging. In that respect it's mostly harmless.
> 
> Some people are drawn into the church because it gives them hope for an afterlife which science does not. According to science, the universe is pitiless and cares nothing for them. The church gives them a feeling that something does care about them and will look after them after death. How do you achieve those comforting thoughts  in "other ways" ?



Rumpole's post seems a fairly reasonable commentary on the attitude of many toward religion.  He's not necessarily advocating such an attitude, rather making an observation.

I've never met Tink, but having read many of her posts over the years, almost all on religion, I'd conclude that she fits into this group.  The strength of the religious faith completely overrides any intellectual curiosity which might question that faith.   Her association with her church is an essential part of her life, as is her belief system which wants to see 'marriage' retained for a male and a female.

I don't see why that should not be her right.  She simply states how she feels, what she believes.  She does not usually get into the personal insults and sarcasm which characterise some of the other posts here.

Personally I'd much prefer a world with no religion.  Cannot see it as a force for good in any way.  
But I can quite understand that to some people it represents a positive and reassuring part of their lives.


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2014)

Wysiwyg said:


> Your thinking? Don't you think it's distorted by comparing one situation to another that are not the same? Another poster here used the word "apologist". An apologist is someone who defends a controversial issue, ideology or belief. How deep does your apologising run? Are you a passive adherent to the Quran? Are you a moderate swinger between passive and extreme or are you (and I don't think you are) a fanatical believer that manifests violent behavior?
> 
> Well you are in the right country to make democratic changes if you want. The steps are :-
> 
> ...




I'm an apologist now? Apologist for what? For Muslims and Islam and terrorism?
Oh, I must be a swinging fanatical Muslim or something.
Give me a break man.

I could be an apologist or I could just be an honest guy who knows a thing or two about the world we live in.

If you want to live in some fantasy about us always good while them always bad and evil, then by all means. Just let the adults do the thinking.

Watch that documentary above from PBS Frontline - Losing Iraq. 

See what kind of idiotic "they are evil" thinking did to the US and the Coalition of the Willing. Bremer was in charge of Iraq... the Iraqi generals and military that survived the invasion wanted to surrender and work with the West. What did he do? He "de-Baath" Iraq - since they're evil and all - and over night, 250 000 trained and armed Iraqi military personnel go under ground and start a resistance and a bunch of American and allied troops start dying, them a bunch of collateral damages.

Then a few years and a couple of dollars later, General Petraeus took command and started working with the resistance, the Sunni, and that brought greater peace to Iraq. When the US left, the Shiite gov't in Baghdad cut them off again... Most then join ISIS or help them and here we are, fighting evil.

-----

With regards to Australian politics. I thought me saying that the Australian poor, the Aussie battlers... me saying they're being screwed over is me being somewhat representative, or at least thinking of a fair portion of Australian and their interests.

That made me un-Australian and I should go back to where I came from? 

Yea, my voice matters to those politicians. Just as the voices of millions of Australian families trying to make ends meet matter. Strange how a democracy where the people votes, and they presumably vote for their interests, yet somehow most policies benefit the rich and the powerful more and made the poor worst off. Strange ey? I guess the poor are just dumb... that or their voices aren't heard at all and they just have to take it... else pack up and leave.


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## luutzu (7 November 2014)

I'm rude?

Sorry about that. I thought calling an entire faith and all its 1.4 billion people evil was rude. Clumping some idiots or some terrorists together with all Muslims, I thought that was rude.

Was that sarcasm? I was just asking questions.

While we want a proper, honest and open discussion... let's go and ask "Are White people inherently evil", "Is Christianity inherently evil"... here are the lists of why the Whiteys are evil - this White guy did this, that White guy did that... what an evil race of criminals! This priest did this, that bishop do that, its Bible say this and that... Woah! What an evil religion.


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## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

Julia said:


> Her association with her church is an essential part of her life, as is her belief system which wants to see 'marriage' retained for a male and a female.
> 
> I don't see why that should not be her right.  She simply states how she feels, what she believes.
> .




That is her right, and I in no way want to take her right to have a religion away. But if she doesn't like gay marriage, then she doesn't have to have one. But avoiding having a gay marriage themselves, is not enough for a lot of religious folk, they want to get involved in other peoples lives and stop others getting married.

I find them using terms such as "traditional marriage" to be in the same category as when they make claims that Australia is a "Christian country" or has "Christian Values"etc, they want to construct the concept that there was a place and time when all was Christian and all was good and we need to get back to that place, and anything that's not traditional needs to be avoided, that concept is just false.

That's why I said what I did, I wanted to point out that the concept of marriage has changed over the years dramatically for the better, and recognising gay marriages is just the next step.

You actually can't stop marriages happening, marriages happen through two people making a commitment to each other, however the government gets involved when it comes to recognising them and giving out privileges, I would be happy if the government butted out, but as long as they are in the business of recognising marriages, they should do it fairly, and not discriminate.


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## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> .
> 
> While we want a proper, honest and open discussion... let's go and ask "Are White people inherently evil", "Is Christianity inherently evil"... here are the lists of why the Whiteys are evil - this White guy did this, that White guy did that... what an evil race of criminals! This priest did this, that bishop do that, its Bible say this and that... Woah! What an evil religion.




the question on the thread is not are Islamic people evil, It's "Islam: Is it inherently Evil"

I took the question to be asking are the doctrines of the faith Evil, I think that's a valid question to ask.

As I have stated, I think it is Evil, But so are all the religions I have encounted.

Offcourse asking "are all white people evil" would be silly, But asking "Are the polices of the British empire evil" would be a valid question,

Answering yes to that question is not saying that all members of the British empire are evil, just that its policies were.


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Is that the best you can come up with. I was referring to a group of 500 Muslims burning to death a Christian couple, the lady being pregnant, under the direction of a Mullah based on some trumped up blasphemy charge and you dismiss it off hand by saying I should watch Chomsky. Every time someone mentions some atrocity committed by Muslims or in the name of Islam, you seem unable to express any condemnation or acknowledgement that the act is horrific, but instead try to obfuscate by alluding to something Chomsky said or wrote.




For every crime committed in the name of Islam, I can assure you I can find another instance committed in the name of Christianity. I just don't want to do that because it's silly to condemn one religion and ignore crimes in another.

I've said it before, I'm an Atheist and do not believe in any god. But to insult another religion like that is just wrong on both moral and intellectual grounds. Feel free to do it, just it makes you look pretty silly, in my humble opinion.


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> the question on the thread is not are Islamic people evil, It's "Islam: Is it inherently Evil"
> 
> I took the question to be asking are the doctrines of the faith Evil, I think that's a valid question to ask.
> 
> ...




I think it may have started out as questioning Islam, which I agree with you is a valid question and I think you've done a great job at answering that.

But it then evolve into using examples of terrorism and other atrocities done by some Muslims or done in the name of Islam... then pretty quickly it's whatever (bad things) any Muslim does represents all Muslims and Islam. That will then lead to it being any Muslim and any Arab are terrorists and are inherently evil.


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## SirRumpole (7 November 2014)

Value Collector said:
			
		

> False hope though,...




Trouble is , you can't actually prove that, which is why the hope lives on.

I happen to  believe that there is a God and an afterlife (for everyone), but I don't need the religious baggage.

 If our future lives depend on the good or bad we have done in our past lives rather than what brand of God or not we decided to believe in, that's good enough for me.


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Trouble is , you can't actually prove that, which is why the hope lives on.
> 
> .




It's not up to me to disprove the existence of an afterlife, it's up to the believers to prove one exists.

But for me, there is far to much evidence that suggests our personality and consciousness, is a direct result of our brain function and no evidence that suggests our personality or consciousness could exist outside our brain, so believing either of them will survive the decay of my brain is not an option for me.

for billions of years before my brain formed I had no personality or consciousness, Why would I believe that I will have it after my brain has decayed away.

-----

This is not the thread for it, but I would like to hear you explain why you believe your mind will survive the death of your brain, perhaps the religion and science thread.

Also, do all of the 10,000,000 species of animals have an after life, or just humans? or just the animals with conscious brains? or just apes? and if its just the animals with brains, how does the consciousness survive outside the brain?

so many questions, I would like to discuss.


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## Tisme (7 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> What your talking about here is a wedding, not a marriage, your marriage probably existed before you wedding and hopefully long after it.




yes lived in sin for 4 or more years in a house we both built when I was 21. Loved her to bits right up to her passing away a little over 3 years ago....knocked the stuffing out of me and I still weep a tear for what we had ...she was my best friend and a cracker in the looks dept = bonus.

Weddings and bonded marriage suits many, but not me, the ties that bind should be worked on daily with love, affection, admiration and individualism celebrated to create 2 people power, not an absorption model so many couples seem to melt into.


----------



## Wysiwyg (7 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> Watch that documentary above from PBS Frontline - Losing Iraq.



I appreciate your difference of opinion as it is thought provoking. In line with the thread topic and the post by Bellenuit of the mob burning of those three (one unborn) Pakistanis. Specifically, I condemn those actions perpetrated by this religion on those innocent people. To support these religious actions is not acceptable in this country. *The goal is some future freer world.* 

I don't agree with the U.S. interventions and their attitude toward their own country folk. Documents set in stone (Constitution) should be debated and voted upon on a more regular basis. Particularly the right to bear arms and the fanatics that grieve not, as more school children get shot up. It borders insanity why nothing has been done to remove the free availability of guns in their society. Their 'international agenda' has obviously disturbed a hornet's nest and it is their self righteousness, arrogance and wanton intervention that irks people. Even angers people to perform hideous acts of violence in "retaliation". 

There is defense on one hand and there is intimidation by forcing will on the other hand.  But. And a big but. What would the world look like without the U.S. interventions around the world? 



> That made me un-Australian and I should go back to where I came from?




My comment about leaving the country concerns the religious fanatics pushing their fanatical religious agenda in Australia.



> With regards to Australian politics. I thought me saying that the Australian poor, the Aussie battlers... me saying they're being screwed over is me being somewhat representative, or at least thinking of a fair portion of Australian and their interests.
> 
> Yea, my voice matters to those politicians. Just as the voices of millions of Australian families trying to make ends meet matter. Strange how a democracy where the people votes, and they presumably vote for their interests, yet somehow most policies benefit the rich and the powerful more and made the poor worst off. Strange ey? I guess the poor are just dumb... that or their voices aren't heard at all and they just have to take it... else pack up and leave.



Yes you are right. These people need a spokesperson or activist. It would be a different world with everyone getting what they want during their lifetime. The low cost of general education in Australia along with parental guidance is a great place to start.
Thankfully, and one of the reasons why people love living in Australia, is the wide expanse of land with more opportunity than any other country in the world to have a go.


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> yes lived in sin for 4 or more years in a house we both built when I was 21. Loved her to bits right up to her passing away a little over 3 years ago....knocked the stuffing out of me and I still weep a tear for what we had ...she was my best friend and a cracker in the looks dept = bonus.
> 
> Weddings and bonded marriage suits many, but not me, the ties that bind should be worked on daily with love, affection, admiration and individualism celebrated to create 2 people power, not an absorption model so many couples seem to melt into.




I am sorry you had to go through that, my sincere condolences. 

I totally agree with your post, as I said I think the government should butt out of the marriage recognition business, but as long as they are in it, it needs to be fair, with no discrimination. If you  and your partner love each other, and commit to each other, who is the government to tell you your marriage doesn't count.


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## Julia (7 November 2014)

A solution to this endless discussion about whether gay marriage should happen etc., would be for all marriage to not exist at all.
A legal arrangement via civil unions should be available to everyone if that's what they want in terms of protection of property etc if the love dies and the hatred sets in.

So much fuss about something which is essentially meaningless.  No ceremony or bit of paper, piles of wedding presents, bridesmaids and honeymoons, will ensure a sound relationship.

Relationships are what they are.  Dependent on the individuals involved and their mutual commitment.
Nothing to do with the gratuitous frills round the edges.


----------



## Calliope (7 November 2014)

Julia said:


> Relationships are what they are.  Dependent on the individuals involved and their mutual commitment.
> Nothing to do with the gratuitous frills round the edges.




Quite right...and nothing to do with this thread either.


----------



## herzy (7 November 2014)

Julia said:


> A solution to this endless discussion about whether gay marriage should happen etc., would be for all marriage to not exist at all.
> A legal arrangement via civil unions should be available to everyone if that's what they want in terms of protection of property etc if the love dies and the hatred sets in.




Quite right. It is entirely inappropriate for a supposedly secular government to take a stance here.


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2014)

Wysiwyg said:


> I appreciate your difference of opinion as it is thought provoking. In line with the thread topic and the post by Bellenuit of the mob burning of those three (one unborn) Pakistanis. Specifically, I condemn those actions perpetrated by this religion on those innocent people. To support these religious actions is not acceptable in this country. *The goal is some future freer world.*
> 
> I don't agree with the U.S. interventions and their attitude toward their own country folk. Documents set in stone (Constitution) should be debated and voted upon on a more regular basis. Particularly the right to bear arms and the fanatics that grieve not, as more school children get shot up. It borders insanity why nothing has been done to remove the free availability of guns in their society. Their 'international agenda' has obviously disturbed a hornet's nest and it is their self righteousness, arrogance and wanton intervention that irks people. Even angers people to perform hideous acts of violence in "retaliation".
> 
> ...




I agree with you.

Any religious or cultural practices that go against Australian law have no place here. There's "honour killing" or child brides, stoning or whatever. That's just wrong even our the law permit it - which I'm glad it does not.

So with these local village chiefs or whoever that order these crimes, they may claim it's Islam and can probably point to some passage in the Koran to prove it... it's wrong either way. But to use that as an example of Islam being evil... you can ask VC and he can point to the Bible for similar lines that can be interpreted that way or any way you like.

Religion is just a tool. Some use it to unite the people to do good work, others use it to wage war - war on their own people or war of invasion, depends on what is more beneficial to God's representative on earth.

--
America has a lot going for it, but there's a fair number of problems. Gun is a major problem yea, but it seems income inequality is another major and growing problem. One that Robert Reich, Chris Hedges is saying is the major reason economic growth is unstable and recover is slow. I mean the average CEO earns about 300, that three hundred, times more than an average employee at the same corporation; real wages for workers hasn't grown much even though efficiency from them has increased a great deal over same period.

Its gun issue is a good example of corporate agenda buying politicians and hijacking the Constitution to make more money. The 2nd Amendment said something like "a well regulated militia must have the rights to bear arms", you know, the fight possible British invasion. But context and key words like "militia" and "regulated" are ignored and it's just all citizens must bear arms as enshrined by the great founding fathers. So yea, you have kids being killed whenever some idiots decided to shoot up the place and then you have NRA leaders coming on TV saying the reason these children got kill was because the teachers weren't armed, because there are no security guards with guns. 

---

If US or Western intervention were actually what they say on TV, then yes, we ought to join and go do what we're told is the aim. But that's not reality. That's just the art of war, and all wars are based on deception, as Sun Tzu said.

Take Afghanistan... The Taliban has been as evil as they always were and we didn't do anything until they act as a base to launch terror attack on the US. And we took them out, not just to avenge, but to also control access for oil pipelines being planned from the Caspian down through Afghanistan and into the Indian Ocean... that and an estimated "discovery" of a few trillions worth of rare mineral deposits, the kind that has been proven most efficient for batteries.

Maybe Bush did try to create a democracy in Iraq, maybe... but after it proved too costly, they simply secure Green Zones around important assets and forget about the other parts of the country. Then out of that neglect come ISIS... and when we return there, Khobani or some town was being hammered by ISIS and I heard Kerry saying it's tragic and all that but it's not to our strategic interests to intervene there.

I mean, our families live well because of Western power and influence so trust me when I tell you I am all for us remaining so. But if you look at history, no power can remain rich and powerful, remain unchallenged if majority of its people are getting poorer, if its economy are not stable, if it is rich on borrowed money. And the kind of interventions we're all used to, it might not prove as effective as it used to be.

---

Activists or representatives of the people... they're supposed to be the MPs but yea... I think it needs to come from the top, and the top wouldn't do anything unless there's social unrest or potential uprising... that would give the top more incentives. That or you get a real leader - say the two Roosevelt presidents.

When you have career politicians, they tend not to want to be unemployed and no boats will be rocked. But with enough noise and a strong leader who realise the job of a leader is to strengthen the people and the nation, something good might come of it. Though it tend to get really bad before that happen.


----------



## luutzu (7 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> yes lived in sin for 4 or more years in a house we both built when I was 21. Loved her to bits right up to her passing away a little over 3 years ago....knocked the stuffing out of me and I still weep a tear for what we had ...she was my best friend and a cracker in the looks dept = bonus.
> 
> Weddings and bonded marriage suits many, but not me, the ties that bind should be worked on daily with love, affection, admiration and individualism celebrated to create 2 people power, not an absorption model so many couples seem to melt into.




My condolences Tisme.

I can imagine but I know it won't be anywhere close to know what it'd be like to lose a life partner like that.


----------



## Value Collector (8 November 2014)

Julia said:


> A solution to this endless discussion about whether gay marriage should happen etc., would be for all marriage to not exist at all.
> A legal arrangement via civil unions should be available to everyone if that's what they want in terms of protection of property etc if the love dies and the hatred sets in.
> 
> So much fuss about something which is essentially meaningless.  No ceremony or bit of paper, piles of wedding presents, bridesmaids and honeymoons, will ensure a sound relationship.
> ...




The most simple solution is just to recognise a marriage as a union between two consenting people, just take the gender language out and the problem is solved.


----------



## Tink (8 November 2014)

VC

Maybe you should ask the Brits how their politically correct garbage is going, and the destruction of the family institution, that is all it seems to be doing, attacking and destroying. 

Self pity and ingratitude have taken over their state.

No traditional honour or morals.

Christianity is the foundation of our civilisation, and for me, our Christian heritage is worth standing up for.


----------



## Value Collector (8 November 2014)

Tink said:


> VC
> 
> Maybe you should ask the Brits how their politically correct garbage is going, and the destruction of the family institution, that is all it seems to be doing, attacking and destroying.
> 
> .




When seeking equality and ending discrimination is considered "politically correct garbage", I think your idea of "honour and morals" is a bit off. 

I can't help thinking that you would have a completely different opinion if you or your children had been born gay.

Do you have children? Would you want them discriminated against if they had been born gay?





> Christianity is the foundation of our civilisation, and for me, our Christian heritage is worth standing up for




Yes, I know you feel that way, but not every one does, I think society is past needing a super natural imaginary friend. Especially when the a lot of the things that make modern secular society great are things that go against teachings in the bible.

Any further comment on Gay marriage needs to be in another thread though, perhaps the Gay thread or the religion and science, you choose.


----------



## Tink (8 November 2014)

I have already said, VC, I am doing it for the children.
Rights for children to know their biological parents.

I don't have a problem with people being gay, I just don't agree in changing the Marriage Act,

I have already given my opinion and not really interested in going into it again.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (8 November 2014)

There is an interesting article in today's Weekend Australian on the attraction Islam has for the mentally unwell and the incarcerated criminal class.

It is about the obsessive nature of the observances and the sense of community in enclosed environments that Islam engenders.

It is worth a read. 

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (8 November 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> There is an interesting article in today's Weekend Australian on the attraction Islam has for the mentally unwell and the incarcerated criminal class.
> 
> It is about the obsessive nature of the observances and the sense of community in enclosed environments that Islam engenders.
> 
> ...




The radicalisation of young men by Islam is no different to the radicalisation of young men (and women) by Hitler Youth. Young people's brains run on hormones rather than reasoning capability until their brains mature. That's why they take risks in the pursuit of pleasure. They drive too fast, drink too much and take too many risks. If you throw in these factors along with the prospect of power over others and having women as your slaves, as well as a sense of belonging to a group instead of being isolated, then you have a very attractive proposition for some people already inclined towards psychopathy and megalomania.

It's hormones and psychology that seduce these people, rather than religion, as the radicalisers well know.


----------



## Craton (8 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> And smoking is just meant to be a harmless leisure activity, but things don't always work out that way, and when we learn the real side effects are harmful, we should avoid the dangerous activity.




VC, don't agree with this statement. Poisoning the body via smoking is not the same as poisoning by the scriptures. Medical Maryjane not withstanding...



> Can you think of a single positive benefit of religion that can not be achieved in other ways?
> 
> And if you can't think of any positive benefit that can not be achieved in other ways, why take the pill with the terrible side effects, it's my opinion that religion should be avoided.




Your opinion and that's fair enough.

Some need to feel they have "seen the light" to make sense and to cope with the world we/they live in. Many feel the need for a sense of purpose and religion gives it, that's a positive.  I would hazard a guess that's why some Christians have embraced or turned to Islam (not I), for that very same reason. If it helps to lead fruitful and socially acceptable lives, so be it. 

I'd also say that for many without a dogma to follow, and for want of a better word, anarchy would ensue and I don't think that would be a good thing either however, I do agree that certain people should avoid any religion, you know, the ones that have a penchant for fanaticism and blind devotional faith.

Having said that, I don't need any religion nor anyone to tell me how to live, how to treat others, how to love, how to have faith, trust and respect for my fellow man, for nature, for the planet we live on. Perhaps my quest for knowing more about the other religions, other ways of life have lead me to a deeper understanding of what really is important. I don't want to post a diatribe so back to the OP title.

I would also conjecture that chasing/worshipping the almighty dollar is evil too but hey, that's the world we live in and perhaps, just perhaps because of that chase those that follow Islam see our way of life as evil too. No, I'm not condoning what ISIL et al are doing, that's plain evil, just saying.


----------



## SmellyTerror (8 November 2014)

Thanks y'all who read mah post.




Tisme said:


> Fighting the urge




Yeah, that was poorly phrased. I'm saying that blaming Shiites for terrorism is like accusing Catholics of being in the IRA. Not only are they not even in the right religion, they're actually the main TARGET of the terrorists.


----------



## DeepState (9 November 2014)

herzy said:


> err, no, it doesn't. It again conflates a multitude of factors. Are all immigrants created equal? No.





What?  You indicated that higher criminality was explainable by immigration as new migrants tend to be more criminal and then settle down as they go through a few generations. That's why I apparently can't compare African Americans (who have been around a while) to Muslims (who are recent migrants).

Here's the quote verbatim:



herzy said:


> You shouldn't compare African Americans to Muslims. African Americans are well-established in America. Most Muslims in the US are first or second generation immigrants. That's entirely different, and it takes a while for cultures to assimilate (e.g. Italian gangsters).




Now, given that immigrants to the US exhibit a lower level of criminality than the general populace, the concept of new migration provides an opposing explanation to what you have suggested.  When you imply that immigration contributes to a higher rate of criminality than the Afro American population because of their more recent immigration, but recent immigration as a statistical factor is actually associated with lower incidence of criminality, your statement is actually entirely inconsistent.

All immigrants are not created equal.  Of all immigrants, Muslims show high criminality.  They do show higher criminality in the second generation as previously discussed.  Can you, with a straight face, really suggest that this "second generation effect" (because it cannot be the first generation and, according to you, should have washed out after that) effect closes a 3x criminality gap in the US vs Afro Americans?  Especially when the other explanatory factors like education, average income etc. are so much better for Muslims than Afro Americans?  Furthermore Muslims are actually very well accepted in the US.  This acceptance was not significantly dented after 9/11.  Do you have any idea of what that explanation actually requires in terms if underlying crime rate for the second generation of Muslim immigrants after standard factors are considered?



herzy said:


> It could easily warp results, if almost all Muslims in Italy come from these backgrounds (hence almost all are criminals). Remember, as you said - it's proportion that matters, not total numbers. Aborigines are 10x overrepresented in Australian jails. By your logic, a) this enormous gap can't be explained by a range of societal factors and b) it's definitely thus because they believe in dreamtime.




That is not my logic.  I would never say that and am a heck of a lot more careful about this stuff by training and experience in very serious situations than you seem to allow for.  The only observation that I would make about the aboriginal population and incarceration is that there is a higher level of criminality than could be explained by education, wealth, income, health... than the general population.  Given there is a strong line-up between belief in dreamtime and aboriginals, all I can actually say is that they correlate.  That's it.  There are ways to deal with highly aligned dependent data, but let's not go there.

There is a higher criminality in the Muslim population.  Period.  The evidence is very strong. The standard factors do not explain it away.  I have not said anything about numbers of times prayed per day, color of skin, belief in Islam.... nothing.  Just the observation of higher criminality.  

If you must know, my actual guess (I do not have the data) is as follows.  In general, after allowance for all these factors, the average Muslim is a decent, law abiding citizen.  Some may not like the Muslim ways or agree with the viewpoints.  Nevertheless, the Muslim population just wants to get on with life in relative peace.  Here's where I'll just break with convention because I cannot know 1,000 Muslims and do a pairwise Latin Squares analysis of variance.  The Muslims I have met were incredible people and simply amongst the most admirable people I have ever met.  I cannot understand how the debates like this one actually happen based on what I have experienced.  If anything, I would have thought the debate would be about how to harness these skills to knit a tighter community and build an even better nation.

Nonetheless, I think there is a 'fatter tail' of criminal behavior.  That is, a minority are criminally inclined.  They may be more proportionately represented than the general populace (more bad eggs), more intensive (some really evil smelling eggs) or some combination of both.  I have no firm view as to what causes it.  A book full of evil sitting on a table doesn't actually kill or steal.  What else is going on?  I don't know.

The data states there is more criminality in the Muslim population.  I am not condemning this population.  I just observe the data.  I do not offer a data based rationale for it.  The proportion incarcerated, whilst larger than the general population, still allows for the fact that the great majority are not criminals to the point of incarceration.  This is most definitely not some BS Kung Fu wannabe one-bad all-bad argument.  The data states that this is certainly not the case.




herzy said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm disagreeing with any inferences drawn from that that relate to Islam. Yes, Muslims are overrepresented in jail populations, and hence display higher criminality than others, at least in the US and Italy. That's about the only conclusion one can draw, and nobody is denying that.




+1, except I have not mentioned Islam in any of my correspondence on this issue.  That is your assumption.  I did not make it.  I refute the 'accusation' that I made the inference.  You are free to infer what you want from the data.  Please don't attribute it to me.




herzy said:


> How exactly did you strengthen your argument that Islam is an explanatory variable? Almost all North Africans are Muslim, and are hence susceptible to the destitution, lack of education, and range of economic factors that create the gap which you referred to. Nothing necessarily to do with Islam, despite almost all of Italy's immigrants coming from there.




Never said anything was to do with Islam.  




herzy said:


> Luutzu sums it up well.
> 
> That's a perfect example of confirmation bias Luutzu - people see what they expect to see, which reinforces their previously held (mis)conceptions.
> 
> Exactly.




Ummm. As usual, your primary source provided an inaccurate summation complete with meditation, what's more. One suspects that some people think I am attacking the Muslim population and Islam just by presenting data or debating methodology. Seeing what they expect to see.  Much has been said condemning my apparent view that Islam does or does not cause higher Muslim criminality.  Expecting any reference to Muslims to equate to Islam is the confirmation bias which has been shown clearly.  There has been an argument against a straw man that doesn't even exist.  Seeing something which does not exist.





I hope the irony does not escape you.  I thank you for the exchange.


----------



## luutzu (9 November 2014)

RY,


Ha ha!




Seriously, you know how some debates you just can't win? This is one of them. Stop digging buddy.


----------



## luutzu (9 November 2014)

What's Kung Fu wanna be? It's Bruce Lee wanna be. And who wouldn't want to be Bruce Lee? He made Keanu Reeves look like a girl scout.


----------



## darkhorse70 (9 November 2014)

VC, ive never rrad anywhere in the bible that stuffs witches etc should be stoned, byt thats not to say ive read it completely.  But the difference between the koran and the bible is that christians acknowledge it was written by man and definitely mantipulated while muslims believe the koran is the words of god.

Id still rather be a christian anyday haha.


----------



## darkhorse70 (9 November 2014)

So what im saying is Christians can bend rules which seem irrational where as muslims cannot.


----------



## drsmith (9 November 2014)

Larry Pickering's been going on about this,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...fication-due-to-social-media-pressure/5877584


----------



## SmellyTerror (9 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> What's Kung Fu wanna be? It's Bruce Lee wanna be. And who wouldn't want to be Bruce Lee? He made Keanu Reeves look like a girl scout.




Pfff. *Keanu Reeves* makes Keanu Reeves look like a girl scout.



> So what im saying is Christians can bend rules which seem irrational where as muslims cannot.




Everyone can bend rules. To repeat: nothing in the Koran says to wear a veil, or a hijab, or whatever. The only rule for women different to men regarding dress is that they have to cover their boobs. People made the rest up.

People who don't bend their religion's rules, who read it as written, are called fundamentalists. *That's what "fundamentalist" means*.

Go, read, become one with the Word of Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism

There are fundamentalists of ALL religions, and all of them suck balls. Except for the ones that worship at the altar of the SmellyTerror - those droogs are RIGHT.

But Christian fundamentalists have murdered WAY more than the ISIS and AQ wannabes ever have. 

Then go to the folk who "reinterpret" the scriptures (which is exactly what Whabism is - a recent reinterpretation of Islam, in response to the colonisation of Arab lands by foriegners) The Lord's Resistance Army makes Isis look like a bunch of pussies. I'm feelin' gregarious, here's a link for them, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

Or my main man, General Butt Naked (another link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Butt_Naked). A weird-ass blend of Christianity and tribal gods, and tell me if that dude doesn't scare you way more than poor stupid Osama hiding in a little slice of domestic hell...

People suck! People will find an excuse to kill people. If they didn't have gods, they'd make new ones, or say they were gods, or that their sport's team was better and the ref had it in for them, or that their gang was harder and needed to prove it, or they'd decide that their "race" had some kind of manifest destiny (did you know that in Sudan, when one tribe rapes and murders the other, they chant songs calling the losers "black"? These are *Sudanese* people, but yeah, one mob thinks they're less black than the other).

Islam isn't evil. 

It's just human. 

And humans are evil.


----------



## SmellyTerror (9 November 2014)

And I should add, what most people think are religious rules are just... culture. Culture with God backing it up.

Totally right, the bible doesn't say squat about what a witch is (I think the only line is something like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live amongst thee"). People made the rest up. Because how else could you justify killing the Widow Osborne and nick all her stuff?

The bible doesn't say not to use a condom, or not to have an abortion. In fact, until abortions became reasonably safe and available, Christian dogma (for most of two thousand years) had it that a fetus didn't have a soul until the "quickening" - at about 20 weeks, when you can feel it move. 

Until that change, a pregnant woman could be executed (remember how we used to do that a lot? Until we got rich enough for life-terms?), but only until the quickening. But then abortions came along and maybe let people do more of the sexy sex, and suddenly the old celibate men of the church were all, OH! God totally changed his mind about the souls. Got 'em special delivery. No sexy sex!

And yeah, most of the "muslim" stuff everyone worries about is actually "Saudi" stuff. And believe me, the KSA is the second most messed up nation on earth, right behind North Korea. That's where most of the money and people - and ALL of the ideas - for modern "Islamic" terrorism come from. Wipe out the ****ed up House of Saud, and you'd clean up your black-flag infestation over night.

...but they are STUPIDLY rich, and in any case, they got all the oil, and keep it coming our way. Easier to let some random civvies get splattered than upset that lil' apple cart.

Don't trust me. Look it up. And then wonder why the hell our (or anyone's) pollies don't even talk about it...


----------



## Value Collector (10 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> VC, ive never rrad anywhere in the bible that stuffs witches etc should be stoned, byt thats not to say ive read it completely.  .




Exodus 22:18 

Thy shalt not suffer a witch to live.



> But the difference between the koran and the bible is that christians acknowledge it was written by man and definitely mantipulated while muslims believe the koran is the words of god.




Nope, many Christians believe the bible is the absolute word of god, see the video i post below.




> Id still rather be a christian anyday haha




That probably just comes down to the random chance of the time and place you were born, and the culture of your parents.

Why not just be your own man? If your going to use your preexisting morality to pick and choose which bible passages to listen to and which to ignore, why not just get rid of the bible altogether and just trust your own morality.

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysecinv367w[/video]


----------



## noco (10 November 2014)

This terrifying stuff and it is right on our door step.

The radicals in Indonesia want Sharia law and are determined to reach their goal no matter how long it takes.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...f-jakarta-office/story-fnihsmjt-1227117446364


----------



## Weatsop (10 November 2014)

noco said:


> This terrifying stuff and it is right on our door step.
> 
> The radicals in Indonesia want Sharia law and are determined to reach their goal no matter how long it takes.
> 
> ...




Mate, radicals in Australia probably want all the jews kicked out, and want to nick all the chinese folk's stuff. Radicals are nuts. That's why we call 'em radicals.

Don't dignify idiots with labels like "terrifying". I mean, half the point of terrorism is to make people scared - don't go and do their job for them! They're just idiots. War-tourists and murderers looking for an excuse and idiot kids who just want to be in the cool gang. 

Indonesia is Muslim majority, and HINT, is nowhere near having sharia law. Even the try-hard scare piece you linked admitted that. All those people who think da mussies are coming to chop our hands off should *have a good hard look around next time they're in Bali*. If only a tiny crackpot fringe of idiots took offense at all that debauchery and Hindu godlessness and white folk drinking and screwing, in a Muslim majority country, then doesn't that actually tell you that maybe Muslims aren't necessarily the scary monsters you seem to think they are?

If these morons terrify you, I dunno how you leave your house...

(PS: SmellyTerror above is actually me. No idea how I have two handles).


----------



## bellenuit (10 November 2014)

Weatsop said:


> Mate, radicals in Australia probably want all the jews kicked out, and want to nick all the chinese folk's stuff. Radicals are nuts. That's why we call 'em radicals.
> 
> Don't dignify idiots with labels like "terrifying". I mean, half the point of terrorism is to make people scared - don't go and do their job for them! They're just idiots. War-tourists and murderers looking for an excuse and idiot kids who just want to be in the cool gang.
> 
> Indonesia is Muslim majority, and HINT, is nowhere near having sharia law. Even the try-hard scare piece you linked admitted that. All those people who think da mussies are coming to chop our hands off should *have a good hard look around next time they're in Bali*. If only a tiny crackpot fringe of idiots took offense at all that debauchery and Hindu godlessness and white folk drinking and screwing, in a Muslim majority country, then doesn't that actually tell you that maybe Muslims aren't necessarily the scary monsters you seem to think they are?




I haven't read Noco's article, but there are two issues in your paragraph that need correcting.

_Indonesia is Muslim majority, and HINT, is nowhere near having sharia law._

Syria law has been implemented in Aceh province since 2001

http://www.rappler.com/world/region...sia/70321-aceh-passes-stricter-new-sharia-law

... _in a Muslim majority country_

Although Indonesia is predominantly Muslim, Bali is not. Bali is predominantly Hindu and things are tolerated there that would not be tolerated in the rest of Indonesia.

That being said, I do agree that as far as majority Muslim countries go, Indonesia is one of the most tolerant.


----------



## Weatsop (10 November 2014)

bellenuit said:


> I haven't read Noco's article, but there are two issues in your paragraph that need correcting.
> 
> _Indonesia is Muslim majority, and HINT, is nowhere near having sharia law._
> 
> ...




Well, I did crack a joke about the Balians being Hindus, but yeah, poorly phrased.

My point is that a even a Muslim government doesn't just jump in and impose sharia on all the infidels. People in Australia seem worried this tiny minority will get us with the Sharia, yet even in a country where the majority are Muslim, it doesn't necessarily follow.

Relevant to the idea that "Islam is inherently evil". To me, it seems more like people being people, and religion being an excuse.

...and Aceh is Aceh. It's had a pretty damn rough history, and any sign of independence from Jakata is super popular there. Being "more muslim" than the rest of Indonesia is kinda their thing, I reckon. Sorta like the deep south in the US being more Christian than the rest of them.

But yeah, we're in agreement overall.


----------



## darkhorse70 (10 November 2014)

VC I have my own rules of morality but what if god is real. Why risk my fate? If its not then I lost nuthing. If it is then I get to live in heaven. I understand the implications or consequences of religions so I guess its a double edged sword.

I cracked up at the link you sent.


----------



## DeepState (10 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> VC I have my own rules of morality but what if god is real. Why risk my fate? If its not then I lost nuthing. If it is then I get to live in heaven. I understand the implications or consequences of religions so I guess its a double edged sword.




Pascal's Wager 

The French mathematician Blaise Pascal (1623-62) put forward an argument that would appeal to agnostics. (An agnostic is someone who believes that it is impossible to prove God's existence.) 

His argument goes something like this: God either exists or he does not. If we believe in God and he exists, we will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven. If we believe in God and he does not exist then at worst all we have forgone is a few sinful pleasures. 

If we do not believe in God and he does exist we may enjoy a few sinful pleasures, but we may face eternal damnation. If we do not believe in God and he does not exist then our sins will not be punished. 

Would any rational gambler think that the experience of a few sinful pleasures is worth the risk of eternal damnation?


----------



## luutzu (10 November 2014)

DeepState said:


> Pascal's Wager
> 
> The French mathematician Blaise Pascal (1623-62) put forward an argument that would appeal to agnostics. (An agnostic is someone who believes that it is impossible to prove God's existence.)
> 
> ...




yea... but... 

What if the person does not choose to be in God's religion, what if that person belong to some other deity or none at all?

If I break Australian laws in Australia or its jurisdiction, then I'd be punished for it. But if I'm not under its jurisdiction and would never be within it, can an Australian judge punish me?

So I'd say it's more rational to not belong to any religion, that way you get off scott free. And if you've lived your life saintly, all deities and religion would want you if you apply then.

So Pascal's argument is only rational if you believe there is only one true God and all other religions are bunk.

------

But it is reasonable that religion served the purpose of keeping most citizens within the norm of socially accepted morality - that since we don't know for sure if there's eternal Hell or Bliss, let's not go too far off the morality path, let's do something charitable now and then and hope St. Peter would weigh up our minor sins against our good work and with a little begging, we could slip through.


----------



## luutzu (10 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Exodus 22:18
> 
> Thy shalt not suffer a witch to live.
> 
> ...




You don't mince words do you?


----------



## luutzu (10 November 2014)

SmellyTerror said:


> Pfff. *Keanu Reeves* makes Keanu Reeves look like a girl scout.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I enjoy reading that.


----------



## darkhorse70 (10 November 2014)

Exactly retired young. Plus I believe energy cant be destroyed merely transferred. We can only operate under our 5 senses so how can not even comprehend what may be beyond our limits.

And lutzu. I agree. If god does exist, im sure he wouldnt blame me for not having faith if I didnt. After all, all factors have shaped or formed my beliefs in some way so how accoutable can one be?


----------



## DeepState (10 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> yea... but...
> 
> What if the person does not choose to be in God's religion, what if that person belong to some other deity or none at all?




What?  This is totally oblique and internally inconsistent.  Was this an attempt to probe into logic?




luutzu said:


> If I break Australian laws in Australia or its jurisdiction, then I'd be punished for it. But if I'm not under its jurisdiction and would never be within it, can an Australian judge punish me?




Yes.  Anyone who actually is a political scientist with even the slightest interest in international security matters know this.




luutzu said:


> So I'd say it's more rational to not belong to any religion, that way you get off scott free. And if you've lived your life saintly, all deities and religion would want you if you apply then.




Whoever said that the religion of whoever the true supreme being had to be saintly... how exactly do you get off scott free when the beliefs can be diametrically opposed?  Rational? Anything but. A logical fallacy. Unjustifiable assumptions made in a vacuum devoid of fact.  Say whatever you want.




luutzu said:


> So Pascal's argument is only rational if you believe there is only one true God and all other religions are bunk.




Your argument, or 'inductive logic', is not rational or even close to being correct.  This stuff just completely evades you.  I'll pass on expanding. 

------


luutzu said:


> But it is reasonable that religion served the purpose of keeping most citizens within the norm of socially accepted morality - that since we don't know for sure if there's eternal Hell or Bliss, let's not go too far off the morality path, let's do something charitable now and then and hope St. Peter would weigh up our minor sins against our good work and with a little begging, we could slip through.




So is religion or its interpretation causative of behavior?  Or were social norms (or a subset thereof like, say, an imam or a prophet for this context) responsible for the interpretation of religion or even the creation of the religion itself?  Or are they just correlated and you have made the determination of causality with ethereal data?

If it is reasonable, as you say it is, that religion served the purpose of keeping most citizens within the norm of socially accepted morality and a large proportion of a population actively embrace the religion (ie. a causative direction and judgment has been made by you), then if the population exhibits higher criminality adjusted for everything under the sun, the Milky Way and God's and the mythical Phoenix's whole creation whether he/it does or does not exist.....is it reasonable that the religion is somewhat lacking with respect to this issue? That it might be not so much 'half-arsed', but nonetheless lacking on the ability to retain order or behave in a way befitting the societies they inhabit? Alternatively, it could also be said that this religion encourages adverse behavior.  If it's not the religion, then it's the people...if so, I can concede that the religion is not evil in this case. It's the people who are badly behaved. *What will it be*?

Looking forward to your next obfuscation / misinterpretation / non-sequitur.


----------



## luutzu (11 November 2014)

DeepState said:


> What?  This is totally oblique and internally inconsistent.  Was this an attempt to probe into logic?
> 
> Yes.  Anyone who actually is a political scientist with even the slightest interest in international security matters know this.




I thought the logic was pretty straight forward.

Say I'm a Buddhist, I have my own god and he is the Buddha. The Monotheist God, the Western God, is not my maker. How could that God judge and punish/reward me when I do not recognise His existence; when Buddha's laws is the ones I submit to?

Say Australia has a law against alcohol. If I'm *not* an Australian, if I'm Chinese, or American, and I down a couple of beer in China or the US... You're saying that I can be punished by an Australian judge? Can any country punish anyone who is not its citizen and who commit its crimes outside its jurisdiction?

That is only possible if Australia has jurisdiction over the whole world and its law is universal.

Same with God... as I  said, if you do not believe in any other deity, if there is only one God and his name is God, Allah, Jehovah... then yea that Pascal logic applies. Else it does not.

But if you're right, a lot of Buddhists and Taoists and Hindus have a lot to worry about. And a lot of Christians who eat beef has a lot to worry about with the Hindu gods.





DeepState said:


> Whoever said that the religion of whoever the true supreme being had to be saintly... how exactly do you get off scott free when the beliefs can be diametrically opposed?  Rational? Anything but. A logical fallacy. Unjustifiable assumptions made in a vacuum devoid of fact.  Say whatever you want.



If a Buddhist is judged by the Buddha; if a Taoist is judge by, i don't know, Lao Tzu or something; if Christians and Jews and Muslims judged by God... it must follow that an Atheist, one without a god, cannot be judged by any. Hence, scott free.

Again, that statement above is only illogical if you believe there is only one God and the entire Earth and human race is His creation. 





DeepState said:


> Your argument, or 'inductive logic', is not rational or even close to being correct.  This stuff just completely evades you.  I'll pass on expanding.
> 
> ------
> 
> ...




A religion that encourages adverse behaviour to its society is call a cult. Remember how Christians were underground, Christianity considered a cult and feed to the lions etc. by the Romans?


----------



## luutzu (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Exactly retired young. Plus I believe energy cant be destroyed merely transferred. We can only operate under our 5 senses so how can not even comprehend what may be beyond our limits.
> 
> And lutzu. I agree. If god does exist, im sure he wouldnt blame me for not having faith if I didnt. After all, all factors have shaped or formed my beliefs in some way so how accoutable can one be?




Yup, why would God punish you when it is Him who created everything around you, including you. If God always do things, if things always happen because God have his reasons, then isn't it God's fault?

There's been a lot of people since Noah, doing a lot of things... Does God really have that much time and that much resources to see and record everything we do? Seriously?


----------



## Value Collector (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> VC I have my own rules of morality but what if god is real. Why risk my fate? If its not then I lost nuthing. If it is then I get to live in heaven. I understand the implications or consequences of religions so I guess its a double edged sword.
> 
> I cracked up at the link you sent.






DeepState said:


> Pascal's Wager
> 
> The French mathematician Blaise Pascal (1623-62) put forward an argument that would appeal to agnostics. (An agnostic is someone who believes that it is impossible to prove God's existence.)
> 
> ...




Pascal's wager is flawed,

Firstly it is based on there only being two options, but really there are thousands of different versions of gods, 

So the first flaw is that you may pick the wrong god, and just make the real god madder, most of the religions have the largest sin as being worshipping a false god, if the Muslims are right, and you have been worshipping Jesus, your screwed.

The second flaw is that its not a free bet, if you really want to get to heaven, you have to give up things in this life and perhaps even reject people whom you would live a better life by embracing. Giving up things in this life is a real cost.

The third flaw, is that Pascal's wager assumes you can fool a god into letting you into heaven by offering half assed belief.


----------



## Value Collector (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Plus I believe energy cant be destroyed merely transferred. ?




What does the conservation of energy have to do with religion?

If i burn a deck of cards, the energy it contains is transferred into the environment, but the deck of cards is destroyed, just like when you die, and your brain stops functioning, the energy in your body with slowly be transferred into the environment as your decomposed, but none of your personality will survive that decay.



> We can only operate under our 5 senses so how can not even comprehend what may be beyond our limits



.

Well we actually have a lot more than 5 senses, but i get what your saying, but the time to believe in something is when we have evidence for it, whenever we have had supernatural causes given for a phenomena, when we have finally figured out the real cause, its always been a natural cause. When ever we have made up stories to fill holes in understanding, we are nearly always wrong.

.







> If god does exist, im sure he wouldnt blame me for not having faith if I didnt. After all, all factors have shaped or formed my beliefs in some way so how accoutable can one be




Do you care whether the things you believe are true?


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## dutchie (11 November 2014)

There is no afterlife - you wait and see.


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## noco (11 November 2014)

dutchie said:


> There is no afterlife - you wait and see.




LOL...I like that one dutchie.


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## DeepState (11 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Pascal's wager is flawed,
> 
> Firstly it is based on there only being two options, but really there are thousands of different versions of gods,
> 
> ...




Pascal did not specify which God.  Only God. Not THE God.  Just, God. You can have the God of green frogs etc. His wager only allows for the selection of one.  It is silent on the process and the outcome of doing this.

If there is a God and the possibility of non belief brings severe consequences then, without knowing the identity for certain, it is still logically sensible to believe in one. Not believing in any brings zero chance of salvation. For the possibility to exist of some other true God to punish you upon arrival in the afterlife to be a factor, you must first believe in the presence of a God...here we are again.  You just can't tell which.  But if you do not choose, you're totally cactus anyway.  If you disagree, you are actually digging into Pascal by acknowledging that there is a God with some probability, but the choice is hard to get right.  True, but not making a choice, the best you can make, is to say that none exist. Pascal can't be sure of that.  If you want to attack something, this would be the thing.

Pascal did not say it was a free bet.  It was simply a bet whose cost was small relative to the potential consequences.  Relative to eternal damnation, most things look like small inconveniences or sacrifices - they are not free.

Pascal makes no comment on half-arsed beliefs.  He states in belief of God. The wager requires providing the conditions required to attain salvation.  It is you who presume his/others' beliefs in God are half-arsed.  There are many pathways to becoming religious and to believe in (a) God.  One is the decision to believe, or suspension of disbelief, however derived.  Pascal is saying that rationality would lead you to make a choice in favour of believing in some God and acting in concert with those beliefs.  Does the threat of eternal damnation for non-belief appear in various forms somewhere? Hell and stuff?  In any case, his statement that you must actually believe in God and God needs to exist for this to work is hardly a flaw.  If your (half-arsed) belief is not of the type that the true God requires for entry, you don't get entry rights.  How is his argument flawed, exactly?  It may be that someone's attempt at executing his argument doesn't meet the grade.  The argument stands aside from the competency of the implementation.  The argument is not flawed.


The strange cases are where there is a God, but He takes you in no matter what.  For Pascal, that would mean that you are either deliberately doing what you do in the knowledge that God is open-minded and will accept you unconditionally even if you believe in another false God.  Or, the funny twist, you do not believe in God, live your life accordingly, and yet God exists and takes you in. Belief was not a requirement at all as a condition of entry.  This is Pascal by accident.

Neither of the two above lead to a conclusion that belief in some God isn't a rational choice to make.


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## Value Collector (11 November 2014)

DeepState said:


> Pascal did not specify which God.  Only God. Not THE God.  Just, God. You can have the God of green frogs etc. His wager only allows for the selection of one.  .




That's exactly my point, people that use pascals wager seem to think its a two way bet, heads they win, tails they lose. However this isn't the case, there thousands of versions of gods and thousands of heavens and thousands of hells.

Say you agree with Pascal and decide to follow the religion which by random chance you were raised in, in no way have you covered ass, because choosing the wrong god would be just as bad, or in a lot of religions worse than choosing none.



> If there is a God and the possibility of non belief brings severe consequences then, without knowing the identity for certain, it is still logically sensible to believe in one. Not believing in any brings zero chance of salvation.




So does believing in the wrong one.



> Pascal did not say it was a free bet.  It was simply a bet whose cost was small relative to the potential consequences.  Relative to eternal damnation, most things look like small inconveniences or sacrifices - they are not free.




giving up things in this life, the one and only life we know for sure exists, is not a small cost, It's a huge cost depending on which faith you fall into. Imagine being in a faith that caused you to reject your children because they were gay, that's not a small cost.



> He states in belief of God. The wager requires providing the conditions required to attain salvation.  It is you who presume his/others' beliefs in God are half-arsed



.  

he is suggesting that a person that doesn't believe, should just start believing to be safe, But belief is not really a choice, your either convinced or your not. If an atheist just started believeing to be safe, that would be half assed. 



> There are many pathways to becoming religious and to believe in (a) God.




Yes, They can't all be right though, but they could all be wrong.




> The argument is not flawed.




Yes it is.


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## Weatsop (11 November 2014)

Yeah, Pascal's wager is also pretty gutless. If god is such an arbitrary ********, where he tortures people for eternity if they guess wrong in an impossible guessing game, we should be resisting him, not worshipping the bastard.

...there's another flaw that VC didn't go into: if you are "believing" in god because of Pascal's Wager, then you DON'T believe in god, you're just saying you do in case it'll give you a free pass. In other words, you're going around lying about your belief in god. Which seems more likely to bring about eternal damnation that just being honest.

If you believe in god, Pascal's Wager isn't necessary. If you don't believe, Pascals Wager will not sufficient. It might make you (rationally) pretend to believe, but it can't convince anyone of the reality of god any more than I could convince you that magical invisible unicorns exist by threatening to hit you with a stick if you don't believe.

It's gutless AND pointless.


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## darkhorse70 (11 November 2014)

haha VC, but in my interpretation of religion, a Muslim, Jew and Christian ETC all believe in the same god with some minor differences. Why? Because I believe people exploited some parts of the books. So your getting more bang for your buck. Increasing odds shall we say haha

What am I really sacrificing?

Not committing adultery?
Not stealing, killing, lying etc.

Yes I eat bacon haha but most rules in the bible are pretty rational. 
How can we even measure the extent of believing? 
If I dig deep enough in any theory then holes will emerge.

I actually just read that we have 20 some thing senses or more. What a coincidence. 

My conclusion: I bet if any one of you were on the verge of death you'd get on your knees and pray. My friend that's lost in the blue mountains for 3 weeks didn't believe In god, but ill tell you what. I reckon he did pray to a higher power before what ever has happened to him.


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## darkhorse70 (11 November 2014)

By the way when I meant we cant be destroyed in the form of energy, how do we know that our "soul" doesn't have energy.


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## Value Collector (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> By the way when I meant we cant be destroyed in the form of energy, how do we know that our "soul" doesn't have energy.




The question you have to answer first is, How do we know we have souls, I mean all evidence suggests that what you may be calling a soul eg. your consciousness and personality, are out comes of the function of your brain, and once your brain stops functioning, your personality and consciousness cease to exist.

What your attempting to do is misapply the laws of conservation of energy, as I said just because the energy in conserved in any closed system, doesn't suggest it will be conserved in its current form, just like my deck of cards analogy, burn of decompose the deck of cards and it's energy will be conserved in the environment, but that doesn't mean we still have a deck of cards.


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## Weatsop (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> haha VC, but in my interpretation of religion, a Muslim, Jew and Christian ETC all believe in the same god with some minor differences. Why? Because I believe people exploited some parts of the books. So your getting more bang for your buck. Increasing odds shall we say haha
> 
> What am I really sacrificing?
> 
> ...




All of those gods specifically say that if you worship a different god, you go to hell. 

Muslims and Jews go to Christian hell.

Do you really think people only invented rules about killing each other with help from god? Do you think people were just casually murdering their neighbours and everyone was ok with it, until a big old man in the sky told them it was bad?

Or maybe, when people were making up gods, they put all their laws into god's mouth to give them some extra zing?

The ol' Golden Rule (treat others as you would have them treat you) is found in virtually every culture, and predates any of these modern religions.



> By the way when I meant we cant be destroyed in the form of energy, how do we know that our "soul" doesn't have energy.




Because a soul (if it exists) has absolutely no effect on the body or mind, or the universe as a whole. We know your personality and morality are entirely based on the physical matter of your brain, since damage or alterations to the functioning of your brain changes your morality and personality. 

We know what makes a person "alive", we are better at bringing them "back to life" under the right conditions, and we know what chemical changes occur that make a person "dead". A soul has absolutely nothing to do with it.

If a soul doesn't effect your personality, and has nothing to do with you being alive, then *what does it do*? 

*And given there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a soul, why would you believe it exists, other than wishful thinking?*


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## bellenuit (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> What am I really sacrificing?
> 
> Not committing adultery?
> Not stealing, killing, lying etc.




Are you implying that if you did not believe in a God, you would have no personal morality?


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## Weatsop (11 November 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Are you implying that if you did not believe in a God, you would have no personal morality?




There's a great Simpsons episode on that. Everyone is all "Hi, Homer-the-thief!"

Moses comes down the mountain with the commandments, and everyone is all "wha? We can't steal any more?" 

I really like how many rules religious folk just ignore. Like, right there next to "thou shalt not kill" is a rule saying you can't ever get sunday penalty rates, ever. Right next the rule against gays, is the rule not to eat shellfish or wear cotton/polyester blend.

They keep the rules they agree with, and ignore the ones they don't like. *Oh that wacky god! Always the kidder!*

Christians I've talked to say something about how god wants you to use your own conscience. But if you're going with your conscience anyway, *what's the bible doing for you?* Is it a grab-bag of ideas, like a piece of butcher's paper at a dodgy training session?


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## darkhorse70 (11 November 2014)

ok your argument hammered me. But Im still going to believe in god.
But you have to admit that we don't know all the answers to life. We don't even know how the universe came to exist. Where did the matter even come from.


----------



## Value Collector (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> haha VC, but in my interpretation of religion, a Muslim, Jew and Christian ETC all believe in the same god with some minor differences. Why? Because I believe people exploited some parts of the books. So your getting more bang for your buck. Increasing odds shall we say haha
> 
> .




what about the thousands of other gods?



> What am I really sacrificing?




that depends how serious to are, but you should probably stop eating bacon and pork for a start.

the things you give up depend on your faith, you might reject you gay children, you might waste years sitting in a church every Sunday, you might donate thousands to churchs that could have been used more effectively in better charities, Some people might even fly planes into buildings, really the poor outcomes are limitless once you throw logic out the window.



> Not committing adultery?




Really, in matthew 5:28 Jesus says, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart"

Can you really say you follow the rules closely enough to get to heaven, but still not give up anything?



> Yes I eat bacon haha but most rules in the bible are pretty rational.




So slavery is rational? stoning gays rational? 



> I actually just read that we have 20 some thing senses or more. What a coincidence.




It's not actually known how many senses we have, the more you look the more you find,

But what was the coincidence?



> My conclusion: I bet if any one of you were on the verge of death you'd get on your knees and pray. My friend that's lost in the blue mountains for 3 weeks didn't believe In god, but ill tell you what. I reckon he did pray to a higher power before what ever has happened to him




I have been is such situations, and the last thing that come to mind was to pray, But even so, that proves nothing other than we have been raised with a concept of prayer, and when all else fails may revert back to it, It's not different to people that have developed their own supersitions, eg lucky underpants, or rubbing a lucky coin or anything else.


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## darkhorse70 (11 November 2014)

the coincidence was I just stumbled upon an article that revealed myths and one was about your senses. Then you corrected me on my previous statement. Just perfect timing that's all.

Ok, all fair points VC. I cant argue with them. 

Good game. Now explain that to my cousin who converted to ISLAM and has caused emotional wreck upon his family with no regards for them.


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## bellenuit (11 November 2014)

Weatsop said:


> Moses comes down the mountain with the commandments, and everyone is all "wha? We can't steal any more?"
> 
> I really like how many rules religious folk just ignore. Like, right there next to "thou shalt not kill" is a rule saying you can't ever get sunday penalty rates, ever. Right next the rule against gays, is the rule not to eat shellfish or wear cotton/polyester blend.




Moses and his fifteen commandments.......


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## DeepState (11 November 2014)

Value Collector said:


> That's exactly my point, people that use pascals wager seem to think its a two way bet, heads they win, tails they lose. However this isn't the case, there thousands of versions of gods and thousands of heavens and thousands of hells.




If they think it is a two way bet, it doesn't make it a two-way bet.  From what I have to hand about this, once again, he says God.  There is no necessity about this God being the only one you could believe in. Pascal may have had a particular God in mind, but the wager does not impose it. Nowhere in the wager does it state that belief in any God guarantees you passage.  You have to believe in the right one and conduct yourself accordingly which may include sincere belief, though it might not require it  if the true God is half-arsed.  The only requirements are to act in accordance with the dictates of the true God. 




Value Collector said:


> Say you agree with Pascal and decide to follow the religion which by random chance you were raised in, in no way have you covered ass, because choosing the wrong god would be just as bad, or in a lot of religions worse than choosing none.




Pascal's argument was about eternal salvation and damnation.  More damned and more saved was not part of the argument.  You could reasonably add it as a supplementary set of considerations (which I would have no problem with), but this is not Pascal's wager.  Under a salvation/damnation paradigm, Pascal's wager is correct.  Under your paradigm, it is not.

You could argue that his paradigm is junk.  However, the set up and conclusions drawn do flow and are internally consistent. 



Value Collector said:


> So does believing in the wrong one.




Discussed above.



Value Collector said:


> giving up things in this life, the one and only life we know for sure exists, is not a small cost, It's a huge cost depending on which faith you fall into. Imagine being in a faith that caused you to reject your children because they were gay, that's not a small cost.




It is not a small absolute cost, as you say, but it is assumed to be small relative to eternal damnation.  Child and human sacrifice have been part of human culture.  Killing and maiming in the name of religion still goes on.  If the true God requires requires violence or other behavior that seems odious to us, that's what must be done.  Who ever said that the God had to be kind?  Do you observe all-encompassing kindness in the world? From microbes to insects to primates and animals to humans?   Maybe some violence or other odious behavior was He intended.  Any belief which results in a change to your behavior is a cost.  There is no real scale that measures the size of cost.  It may be that a choice not kill some idiot who hurt your family is also costly.  What is the market price for that relative to whatever cost you could come up with?  In whose currency?





Value Collector said:


> he is suggesting that a person that doesn't believe, should just start believing to be safe, But belief is not really a choice, your either convinced or your not. If an atheist just started believeing to be safe, that would be half assed.




Foe the purposes of Pascal's logic, I have to take the concept of 'believing' to mean taking the actions required to get a pass through.  After all, if belief in God was present, but your actions weren't consistent with the ultimate dictates, belief is not sufficient.  Nonetheless, those actions may involve deep and utter belief and devotion to God.  Note that these actions may not even require belief in God as per my prior post about the strange outcomes depending on the actual needs of the true God if He exists.  You just have to act in concert with the requirements.  Who ever said that God isn't half-arsed?  That's an assumption from outside the wager.  Take a look at the evidence and it takes a little bit of effort to refute!

Per DH70, is it reasonable for a kind and loving, all encompassing, forgiving God to disallow the entrance of some 6mth old infant who died in a piss poor country that never came across the concept of the true and correct God because they hadn't yet mastered the language or developed cognitive skills to figure out how to act and what they believe?  If the God is kind...passage would be allowed even if belief was not present.  Quite possibly, the same God created the circumstances of the infant's death because...they are God and God possibly controls all...thus all choices made even if wrong are God's doing anyway - at least to a fairly large extent.  Belief may not be necessary.  It might, but it might not.  It depends on the needs of God, which we cannot ascertain for sure.  You cannot assume anything for the wager itself.  The wager does not impose such an assumption.




Value Collector said:


> Yes, They can't all be right though, but they could all be wrong.




Leaving aside the possibility that the true God is pretty chill and loves all His children whether they believe in Him or worshipped pet rocks or committed Crimes Against Humanity, you are absolutely right.

The point Pascal's Wager is making is that your chances of avoiding damnation are increased if you 'believe' (ie. take actions consistent with the needs of that God) in something that you think isn't a complete joke.  Doing so increases your chances of avoiding eternal damnation (with the extent of damnation not considered.  Damned is damned).

Your chances of being right are utterly miniscule.  However, the chances are better than what they would be otherwise if you did not do anything at all.  That is the essence of the wager.  It is rational to play.




Value Collector said:


> Yes it is.





Nope.  Pascal may, himself, have been thinking of a particular God.  His wager does not require any particular God to be chosen.  Further, his wager does not require that this is the only God which is possible.  He would have been aware of all sorts of religions and prior beliefs.  His logic was basically binary...heaven or hell.  Not different grades of heaven or different grades of hell.  You can disagree with the setup.  Personally, I would have no problem with that at all. However, the logic expressed in the wager flows from his setup.  As for sincerity, I am puzzled as to why the belief has to be deep and achieved without logic to be valid.  If it were so, why are there apologist bookstores loaded full of arguments to support the belief in a particular God?  Then, when taken in, why are there often a bunch of texts telling a follower that they will suffer for leaving a religion if their belief is sincere?  Those who stay from fear...are they sincerely frightened, or sincere believers? Presumably, those who read apologists texts and become convinced, or have their faith enhanced or preserved, by their purported logic are insincere for they need this because their belief is not absolute enough?  Or perhaps they are out of bedtime reading?

It is an assumption, not a flow of logic, that Pascal's wager leads to insincere belief.  Sincere belief and insincere belief comes from all over the place. If you just get born into a belief set, are you actually sincere?  Or are you just lacking in imagination/opportunity? It may also be that sincere belief is not required.  It may be that avoiding cracks on the footpath and avoiding walking under ladders is sufficient to grant passage.  Some people are sincerely superstitious.  Maybe they are the chosen ones.


That's pretty much all that Pascal's wager is on about. It's just a logical set up and then exploring the flow.  It works.  Whether you think the set-up is reasonable or not is another matter entirely.  As you have done, change some elements of the set up (ie. the true God is a punisher, all possible true Gods require sincere belief without logical or ****-covering motives...) and everything changes.  If those are the set-ups, I've got no problem with them.  Many others are reasonable too and would lead to other actions.  The world and the heavens probably do not follow the dictates of Pascal's logic....though I can't rule it out entirely.  The scenario/wager is just a logic-toy.  I believe that sincerely.


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## Value Collector (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> But you have to admit that we don't know all the answers to life. We don't even know how the universe came to exist. Where did the matter even come from.




yes, but to think that perhaps a bunch of superstitious tribesman had the answers is just silly.

We certainly not a lot more about the universe now they we ever have in the past, and the scientific gap that people like to fit god into is getting smaller by the decade.


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## Value Collector (11 November 2014)

RY,

I know pascal doesn't mention a certain god, But the fact remains that humans have believed in many, many thousands of gods. 

Any person that believes Pascals wager makes sense under this scenario, is making a false dichotomy. 

It is not as simple as believe in god or don't believe.

You don't know how many god concepts there are that will punish you for worshipping a false god, but be indifferent to a non believer. so worshipping a false god may damn you in more situations that unbelief, if that's the case, picking a side would not be increasing your chances.

Yes pascal probably was only allowing one god concept into his calculations, but that's the fatal flaw, there is not just one option. 

Anyway, I am not really interested in discussing pascals wager, it's been debunked many times, it requires special pleading which is a logical fallacy in itself.


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## herzy (11 November 2014)

Exactly - you're not better off choosing any God than no god. In fact, you're better off choosing no particular god, and hoping for a benevolent one. 

The reason is as VC says: each God will punish you for worshipping the false God, but won't punish you for not worshipping at all. So RY, your chances of avoiding damnation (almost entirely a Christian/Islamic view, btw) are DECREASED by making a choice, not increased. Rationally, your chances are better when you don't choose than when you do. It is rational not to play.


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## DeepState (11 November 2014)

herzy said:


> Exactly - you're not better off choosing any God than no god. In fact, you're better off choosing no particular god, and hoping for a benevolent one.
> 
> The reason is as VC says: each God will punish you for worshipping the false God, but won't punish you for not worshipping at all. So RY, your chances of avoiding damnation (almost entirely a Christian/Islamic view, btw) are DECREASED by making a choice, not increased. Rationally, your chances are better when you don't choose than when you do. It is rational not to play.




G'day Herzy

For a cut and paste into DH's entry, this certainly has captured debate!  Let's move it.  I'll set up a thread ("Pascal's Wager").  If you want to discuss this, please copy your points in. If not, the thread will just remain blank, I guess. I am curious for your views.

This thing is just a toy, but given you and LT have decided to weigh in, let's explore.  I'm curious too.  Let's see where it goes.  Needless to say, I don't regard VC's view as the final word.  We can unpack that as well via third party debunks of the wager.  Given I respect VC's views even if I often disagree, I checked a few things out which align to the arguments made.  Let's say I disagree with those, even if they are made by very esteemed and atheist debaters like Hitchens and Dawkins.  It would be interesting to replay their arguments slowly.  They substantively overlap with the clip VC provided, but have some additional bits that are also interesting.

LT, if you want to rhyme in, please switch into the thread as well.  You are swimming in the zone, but we should flesh out some parts to see where the thinking is, what assumptions are being made etc..  maybe I am wrong in my understanding of this.  I want to find out.


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## luutzu (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> ok your argument hammered me. But Im still going to believe in god.
> But you have to admit that we don't know all the answers to life. We don't even know how the universe came to exist. Where did the matter even come from.




It all started with a big bang. 
And life on earth is the results of many happy accidents, just like some of us are here today because of accidents. haha


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## herzy (11 November 2014)

Marhaban, RY - I'll join you no the other thread


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## Weatsop (11 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> ok your argument hammered me. But Im still going to believe in god.
> But you have to admit that we don't know all the answers to life. We don't even know how the universe came to exist. Where did the matter even come from.




I don't know what George Washington was thinking at 8:07am, on the day before his third birthday...

...doesn't mean god was doing his thinking for him.

Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean a magical spirit that lives in the sky and no-one has ever seen did that thing. Just as it doesn't mean fairies made the universe, or that unicorns did, or that Odin did, or that I, personally, went back in time and did it myself just so I could get to 100 posts on Aussie Stock Forums.

Even though that last one is true...


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## darkhorse70 (12 November 2014)

Well my dads friend offered me to take me to church on sunday. He wants to re kindle the relationship between me and god. 

Ill go with an open mind and if nuthing else hopefully thete will be some babes there haha


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## Weatsop (12 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Well my dads friend offered me to take me to church on sunday. He wants to re kindle the relationship between me and god.
> 
> Ill go with an open mind and if nuthing else hopefully thete will be some babes there haha




That's the spirit!


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## Calliope (12 November 2014)

Pauline Hanson attracted a deluge of criticism by suggesting that up to a quarter of Islamists were radical. Obviously she just conjured up this figure out of her head. But I think she was more in line with public thinking with her statement that the war against terror was one that “we cannot win”.

Anyone who watched "Insight" on SBS last night would have come to the conclusion that what the Islamic State has achieved in Syria and Iraq is irreversible. A large proportion of their strength and leadership quality comes from the fruitful supply of well qualified recruits from  middle class backgrounds from entrenched Islamic positions in Europe , Australia and elsewhere, anxious to do battle and qualify to enter paradise by killing infidels.

Air attacks can't stop them, and Obama's and Abbott's blather about bolstering the Iraqi army to beat them is just pie in the sky. Aad now Obama is asking a compliant Abbott to increase our "boots on the ground" contribution.

After America and others invested billions in building up an Iraqi army, as soon as America left most of these imitation soldiers all pissed off and went home. There is no way that any backbone to fight the IS can be engendered in the Iraqi army.


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## herzy (12 November 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Well my dads friend offered me to take me to church on sunday. He wants to re kindle the relationship between me and god.
> 
> Ill go with an open mind and if nuthing else h*opefully thete will be some babes there *haha




Finally - the first coherent argument for taking part in a religious practice that I've seen on this thread.


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## Weatsop (12 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> A large proportion of their strength and leadership quality comes from the fruitful supply of well qualified recruits from  middle class backgrounds from entrenched Islamic positions in Europe , Australia and elsewhere, anxious to do battle and qualify to enter paradise by killing infidels.
> 
> Air attacks can't stop them, and Obama's and Abbott's blather about bolstering the Iraqi army to beat them is just pie in the sky. Aad now Obama is asking a compliant Abbott to increase our "boots on the ground" contribution




Whoohoo! Wonk-hat, ON.

IS has about 30,000 men. They get about 100 from international sources each week.

They've lost at least 2-3000 in Kobane alone.

Most of their actual replenishment is coming from locals who want to join the winning team - *when IS starts collapsing, it'll fall down to their tiny core along the Syria / Iraq fringe really fast.* People with a grudge for their neighbours will sign up for easy wins, but when the going gets tough they'll go right back to defending their own little neighbourhoods, just like they've been doing for years.

Note well that one of their original "caliphates" was Jarabulus. That's 25km from Kobane. They set up shop in Jarabulus back in June of 2013.


Seriously, it's taken them nearly 18 months to go 25km.


What's made them far more effective in recent months is that they captured a pile of actual armour from the Iraqi army as it ran screaming into the night.

The ONLY reason IS can do squat against Kurds (who are badass) is that armour.

Armour against airstrikes, on the open plains of Iraq, or in a focussed fight like Kobane, *without air support*, are ****ed.

The Forces of Goodness (joking aside, IS really is as evil as they say - just not much of a threat) only need to pop those old ruskie tanks, and all the technicals they can eat. Do that, and the tough Kurds (who stood down Saddam's army, you may remember) can handle the rest.

---
Here's my prediction: the news is about to turn to "IS collapsing" stories.

---
PS: and if I'm right, please do take this as a lesson about the media wanting to scare you to sell papers...


----------



## Tisme (12 November 2014)

Weatsop said:


> ---
> PS: and if I'm right, please do take this as a lesson about the media wanting to scare you to sell papers...




I think we all know there's a wag the dog exercise going on, but that doesn't mean a nasty war isn't being waged.

The way I look at it is the substitution test:- pick your ancesteral allegiance and wonder how you would behave if it were under siege and at risk of cultural loss? 

For instance if you had Scottish forebears and the English today decided to wipe away the hoots, toots and Och ayes with force! My guess is there would be a certain amount of satisfaction seeing the sassenachs getting a hiding.


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## Calliope (12 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> The way I look at it is the substitution test:- pick your ancesteral allegiance and wonder how you would behave if it were under siege and at risk of cultural loss?




 Who is under siege and who is at risk of cultural loss? Surely you can't mean the IS. Or do you mean the Islamists who have become entrenched in Western countries?


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## Tisme (12 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> Who is under siege and who is at risk of cultural loss? Surely you can't mean the IS. Or do you mean the Islamists who have become entrenched in Western countries?




I think it would be an error to apply western ethics/morals/norms to a middle eastern culture. They are not the same and many do feel their faith and homelands are under attack by foreign aggression/influence. e.g. Saddam Hussein might have been a tyrant, but he was their tyrant, if you get my drift.


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## Calliope (13 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> I think it would be an error to apply western ethics/morals/norms to a middle eastern culture. They are not the same and *many do feel their faith and homelands are under attack by foreign aggression/influence*. e.g. Saddam Hussein might have been a tyrant, but he was their tyrant, if you get my drift.




The Iraqi Kurds, Christians and Shia are certainly "under attack by foreign agression/influence" emanating out of Syria. The only  "western ethics/morals/norms" we are applying is that Islamic State cease their murder, rape, kidnapping and pillaging in Iraq. If this upsets you, so be it, if you get my drift.


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## DB008 (29 November 2014)

It seems like wherever Islam goes, so do extremists and nutters.

Religion of peace? No, it is not!



> *Thirteen Arrested as 500 Police Storm Mosques and Homes in Austria Counter-Terror Raids*
> 
> Thirteen people suspected of recruiting fighters for radical Islamic groups in the Middle East have been arrested by police in Austria, who stormed mosques and homes in a cross-country dawn raid on Friday.
> 
> ...


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## Calliope (1 December 2014)

Is this the tipping point?



> MUHAMMAD has become the most popular name for newborn boys in the UK




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...k-baby-name-list/story-fni0xqll-1227140739393


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## FxTrader (1 December 2014)

DB008 said:


> It seems like wherever Islam goes, so do extremists and nutters. Religion of peace? No, it is not!



Nah.  The apologists for religion here will assure you that groups like ISIS are just using Islam as an excuse to become men in black, wave a black flag, blow themselves and others up , chop off some heads and gain fame on YouTube.  You just can't believe what they say about their own motives and justifications (Islam and the Koran) because they are essentially lying about this and/or they should just be dismissed as extremists.  This is really a faith position based on a clear denial of reality, there is no hard evidence provided for this viewpoint just the absurd notion that a religion like Islam in its various guises and with its various interpretations just can't be the prime causative or motivating factor behind the behavior of Muslims (not real Muslims anyway).


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## SirRumpole (1 December 2014)

> for this viewpoint just the absurd notion that a religion like Islam in its various guises and with its various interpretations just can't the prime causative or motivating factor behind the behavior of Muslims.




It may well be a motive for some, but for others it's adventure, excitement, greed, lust and psychopathy.

We've been through all this before, if religion was the prime motivation for slaughter then every fricking Muslim would be in Syria fighting for the cause.

Why are so many of them NOT there , and why are other Muslim states fighting ISIL ?


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## FxTrader (1 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> It may well be a motive for some, but for others it's adventure, excitement, greed, lust and psychopathy.



Once again you make this assertion without evidence.  If you chose to actually believe what they say over and over again about their motives (something you simply refuse to do because it debunks your unsubstantiated theory) then you might have some real insight as to what motivates the vast majority of these people - their religion.



> We've been through all this before, if religion was the prime motivation for slaughter then every fricking Muslim would be in Syria fighting for the cause.



This conclusion is simply a non-sequitur, we are talking about groups like ISIS not every "fricking" Muslim. 



> Why are so many of them NOT there , and why are other Muslim states fighting ISIL ?



One must make one of two choices when confronted by ISIL, fight and possibly live or just be slaughtered.  Negotiation about whose version of Islam is correct is not an option.  Surely even you can appreciate this.


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## SirRumpole (1 December 2014)

> then you might have some real insight as to what motivates the vast majority of these people - their religion.




So what do you intend doing about it ?


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## Weatsop (2 December 2014)

1. There is a war *within* Islam, with a minority trying to change it into a religion of war. Every time you agree with them, you are supporting the terrorists' aims. You are reinforcing their message, which most Muslims oppose.

2. The VAST majority of people killed by ISIS were Arab Muslims. 

3. The vast majority of people fighting ISIS are Arab Muslims.

---
For some reason we didn't give a **** until they started killing non-Arabs. 

(And then we wonder why so many Arabs hate our guts...)

Our media doesn't report the Arabs fighting against ISIS because our media doesn't care about Arabs, or pretty much anyone who isn't white and preferably English speaking (but we'll take photogenic Yazidis and hot Kurdish girls at a pinch). Our media only cares about Muslims when they scare us, *meaning that we only get negative stories*. The positive stories are, by definition, not of interest.

That skew does not reflect the reality.

For YEARS, ISIS has been killing Arab Muslims in Syria. Where was our media (and air support) then? Busy looking for scary Muslims, *because scary Muslims are the only ones that sell papers.*

A good example: the Lord's Resistance Army make ISIS look like a bunch of kindergarten teachers. Apart from the weird Kony campaign, *our media hasn't noticed*. Why? Doesn't affect us, doesn't scare us, and doesn't involve white English-speaking people.

Their religion? Christian.

Is Christianity the religion of war? I mean, if you add up all the killing done by Christians over the past 100 years, you'd have a total VASTLY in excess of anything the Muslims ever did. So is Christianity the religion of war, or not? If we weren't Christian, *if we only got stories about Christians when they did evil things that scared us*, wouldn't we have the exact same negative view of Christianity as many of you have towards Islam?

I would have though most people over the age of 12 would realise that what we get in the media is - at best - a tiny and very subjective piece of the picture.


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## SirRumpole (2 December 2014)

> I would have though most people over the age of 12 would realise that what we get in the media is - at best - a tiny and very subjective piece of the picture.




True enough, we don't hear much of what is going on in Somalia, Nigeria, Kenya until it affects us, but that's a pretty normal human trait. We don't hear much about the poor of Estonia or drug abuse in Amsterdam either.

If we had all the ills of the world rammed down our throats every day people would start complaining that the press is Lefty biased, and why don't we get more stories about how Christopher Pyne wants to create a bold new tertiary education system, full of opportunity for low income earners.


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## Weatsop (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> True enough, we don't hear much of what is going on in Somalia, Nigeria, Kenya until it affects us, but that's a pretty normal human trait. We don't hear much about the poor of Estonia or drug abuse in Amsterdam either.
> 
> If we had all the ills of the world rammed down our throats every day people would start complaining that the press is Lefty biased, and why don't we get more stories about how Christopher Pyne wants to create a bold new tertiary education system, full of opportunity for low income earners.




Exactly. There's only so much news we can digest, and the media (naturally) gives us what they think we want.

But that means people need to have some basic ability to form a worldview that doesn't assume the news tells us everything.

This thread is all about people thinking that Islam is especially evil because the reality of the news cycle means we only get the bad stuff. It's really baffling to me that people then go and act as if that bad stuff is the whole story.

It also comes from people not really understanding historical context. Middle-eastern Islam (and the US, for that matter) took a really sharp right turn in the 50's. I mean, have a look at this series, from Cairo university:

1959




1995



2004



You might need to squint a bit, but you'll see girls in floral dresses, and not a headscarf to be seen in '59, and plenty of girls wearing similar in '95 - with a fair few headscarves too. And then in 2004, it's headscarves wall-to-wall.

*There's nothing inherently Islamic about headscarves*. The Koran doesn't actually take a position - just says people need to dress modestly, and the only restriction is that women need to cover their breasts.

But the Cold War was pretty hard on lots of the world, and the middle-east especially. Compounding that was the messed-up psychos running Saudi Arabia getting spectacularly rich thanks to oil. Just as the US went right-wing, so did the middle-east, but with a hefty taint of crazy thanks to the House of Saud's influence.

The current "brand" of Islam is only a few decades old. All this "Islam is inherently X" stuff necessarily ignores what Islam has been for most of its history.

Fact is, countries with repressive delusional nutjobs in charge, who then export their bizarre views as hard as they can, along with young men, money, and ideas, can have an effect when backed by stupid amounts of wealth. It wouldn't matter what religion was there. The House of Saud pretty much 

Again, look at the 1950's photo. Go look up what was happening in the Islamic world a hundred years ago. Tell me they were fundamentally different from Christian countries.

They weren't really. They were poorer, and they had been colonised by Europe, and there was a lot of resentment, no doubt. But what *changed* was that repressive dickheads got into power (in part thanks to that same colonisation process being idiotically unwound). Oh, Israel happened, too. 

But it's not like everyone suddenly converted to Islam. Instead, the people of the middle-east got changed by some bat**** insane dictators, and some absolutely humiliating moves by their colonial masters.

Take a look at (largely Christian) central Africa and you can see the exact same process, with the exact same results - with the only exception being that the poor bloody Africans never got the insane amounts of money the middle-east did, and so didn't have the capability to export their violence elsewhere.

The Christian Hutus killed in 100 days a lot more people than all the Wahabi nutters in the world ever will.


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## Julia (2 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> We don't hear much about the poor of Estonia



Every country will have some poor people.  Why have you picked out Estonia?  It's one of the most forward thinking, flourishing European countries, particularly given its fraught history with Russian invasion etc.


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## SirRumpole (2 December 2014)

Julia said:


> Every country will have some poor people.  Why have you picked out Estonia?  It's one of the most forward thinking, flourishing European countries, particularly given its fraught history with Russian invasion etc.




First country that came to mind. I meant we don't hear much foreign news in general unless it affects us, or unless we happen to get a mention in the foreign press for whatever reason.


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## Julia (2 December 2014)

The ABC usually chooses to not even report what is happening in our nearest neighbour, New Zealand.
A rare item on this evening's "PM" gives an interesting analysis about why NZ has been able to so successfully introduce the very reforms our government is trying to get up here.  
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s4140716.htm

It seems that, similarly to the way John Howard took the GST to an election, John Key did the same with his welfare and other economic reforms, got the electorate behind him and the country has gone from strength to strength as a result.


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## SirRumpole (2 December 2014)

Julia said:


> The ABC usually chooses to not even report what is happening in our nearest neighbour, New Zealand.
> A rare item on this evening's "PM" gives an interesting analysis about why NZ has been able to so successfully introduce the very reforms our government is trying to get up here.
> http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s4140716.htm
> 
> It seems that, similarly to the way John Howard took the GST to an election, John Key did the same with his welfare and other economic reforms, got the electorate behind him and the country has gone from strength to strength as a result.




Reply in "The Abbott government" thread


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## dutchie (17 December 2014)

Islam, the religion of peace...

Pakistan school attack: At least 141 people killed, including 132 children, in Taliban siege in Peshawar

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-16/taliban-gunmen-attack-military-run-school-in-peshawar/5971484


I wonder if those 132 kids think that?

Sheesh, I must be racist because I think this is abhorrent.


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## SirRumpole (17 December 2014)

dutchie said:


> Islam, the religion of peace...
> 
> Pakistan school attack: At least 141 people killed, including 132 children, in Taliban siege in Peshawar
> 
> ...




It's abhorrent allright, and indicates that some Muslims haven't yet emerged from medieval times into the real world of today.

No doubt there are similar Christian sects that mainly keep to themselves and don't try and enforce their views on others.

 It's going to take a while to eradicate these primitive mindsets from civilised society.


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## noco (17 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> It's abhorrent allright, and indicates that some Muslims haven't yet emerged from medieval times into the real world of today.
> 
> No doubt there are similar Christian sects that mainly keep to themselves and don't try and enforce their views on others.
> 
> It's going to take a while to eradicate these primitive mindsets from civilised society.




The World has been trying to eradicate these mongrels for 1400 years without success.

I have made several comments in the past 3 or 4 years about Islam and accused of being a racist, in fact I believe the moderator removed one of my posts at the time.

As I have stated before, the Muslim community appear peace loving and moderate in small numbers but when their numbers increase through infiltration and their rapid increase in the birth rate, they will show their muscle...

Note the build up in the western suburbs of Sydney......In the electorate of Watson ( Tony Burke's seat) their numbers are 20% and increasing....They have their own schools and are brainwashing those kids 5 times a day with the teachings of the Koran.......when push comes to shove in 10 or 15 years time, those kids will only know one thing.....If you are not a Muslim, all others (Christians and Infidels) must be eliminated.

ISN'T THAT ALREADY HAPPENING IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE WORLD RIGHT NOW?


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## basilio (17 December 2014)

And I reckon your post Noco needs to be flushed real quick. It's putrid and as derogatory an attack on a whole culture as we have seen.

The whole world (and that certainly includes  Muslim countries) is facing a very dangerous situation with splinter groups who have a one eyed view of the world.  Isis, the Taliban are extreme fundamentalists. Everyone, including Pakistan, Indonesia, Syria and so on need to deal with this.

That just isn't the case with the Islam religion as a whole.  If you wanted a comparison consider the Ku Klux Klan as a righteous Christian minded group intent on saving the world from Blacks, Jews et


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## basilio (17 December 2014)

> The World has been trying to eradicate these mongrels for 1400 years without success.



  Noco

Just as a point of clarification Noco which group of  mongrels  has "the World" been trying to eradicate for 1400 years?  I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth but I'm very keen to hear what you mean by that statement.

And I am wondering why we are still reading it...


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## Calliope (17 December 2014)

basilio said:


> That just isn't the case with the Islam religion as a whole.  If you wanted a comparison consider the Ku Klux Klan as a righteous Christian minded groups intent on saving the world from Blacks, Jews et




For your information Bas, there is no KKK in Australia, nor am I aware of any recent KKK atrocities in the USA...certainly not on the grand scale as has been occurring in the Middle East and Africa by people who call themselves islamists..

As you may have noticed we have dozens of home grown Islamist jihadists running loose here and easily slipping through the cracks. Those who are thawted in their desire to join ISIS are becoming attracted to the idea of becoming martyrs and gain entry to Paradise and "the 72 dark-eyed virgins", by committing their atrocities here.

You are annoyed that this upsets Noco, and even you, cannot say that his fears are groundless. I can assure you there is no such thing as goodwill in the Muslim world for infidels, which I presume you are one.


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## Joe Blow (17 December 2014)

Just a reminder to all not to vilify all adherents of any particular religion. You cannot generalise by saying, "All muslims are..." any more than you can say "All Christians are..."

I do not have a problem with extremists of any stripe being hauled over the coals and aspects of a religion being condemned or criticised for its cruelty and brutality (female genital mutilation and Islamic jihad being obvious examples). However, let's not fall into the trap of putting all muslims or all adherents of *any* religion into the one box.

Hitler did just that 70 odd years ago and we all know how that turned out.

So please try and present reasonable, nuanced arguments rather than going off the deep end. Extremist points of view do not lend themselves to constructive discussion or sensible debate, which I'm hoping is why we are all here.


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## pavilion103 (17 December 2014)

I guess it all comes down to what the fundamental doctrine teaches rather than any individuals or groups.

If it's the doctrine which is inherently evil then you can say Islam is evil. If the doctrine is not evil and the evil is done by those who misrepresent the doctrine then you cannot say it is evil.

This is the question to resolve.


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## Bill M (17 December 2014)

Joe Blow said:


> However, let's not fall into the trap of putting all muslims or all adherents of *any* religion into the one box.
> 
> Hitler did just that 70 odd years ago and we all know how that turned out.
> 
> So please try and present reasonable, nuanced arguments rather than going off the deep end. Extremist points of view do not lend themselves to constructive discussion or sensible debate, which I'm hoping is why we are all here.




And this is the exact position I take on this matter too. I have spent most of my life travelling the globe and I have met every religion under the sun. Not all Muslims are bad Muslims. There were young Muslims laying flowers down at Martin Place yesterday too, they were equally as shocked at what happened as all of us Australians were.

I've had Muslim tradesmen do work on my house and found them to be quite nice people. I have met 100's of Muslims in places like Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand and not one of them ever had a bad word to say to me, or my religion or my Country. We need a bit of perspective here, we just need to stick to the laws of the land, in this case Australia's Laws and just like anybody else who breaks them, deal with it. 

I wouldn't want anybody telling me which God I should or shouldn't be following. I respect anybody's right to follow any religion of their choosing as long as they stick to the rules of host countries laws. If more people understood this then the world would be a better place and there would be less to argue and fight about.


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## Craton (17 December 2014)

When opposing religious beliefs are involved our response and sensitivity is heightened. Let's not assume all are tarred with the same brush because of one madman and, don't forget extremism and extremists exist everywhere. Mental health notwithstanding, Neo Nazism, drug cartels and corrupt pollies comes to mind.

I'm well aware that Islam doesn't exactly align with our Aussie way of thinking but it is advents like the Sydney siege that will unite not divide.


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## noco (17 December 2014)

basilio said:


> Noco
> 
> Just as a point of clarification Noco which group of  mongrels  has "the World" been trying to eradicate for 1400 years?  I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth but I'm very keen to hear what you mean by that statement.
> 
> And I am wondering why we are still reading it...




I was talking about the Islamic radicals like the IS......I believe my terminology fits the description of them very well.

What would call these people who kill 130 odd innocent children in Pakistan or those ones who slit the throats of journalists who report adversely of IS or like in Martin place this week where two innocent people were shot in the name of Islam?

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~vika/TeachPort/islam00/esposito/chapt2.html

Here is some light reading for you to understand the Islamic movement from the year 632 AD.


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## bellenuit (18 December 2014)

pavilion103 said:


> *I guess it all comes down to what the fundamental doctrine teaches* rather than any individuals or groups.
> 
> *If it's the doctrine which is inherently evil then you can say Islam (or the religion) is evil.* If the doctrine is not evil and the evil is done by those who misrepresent the doctrine then you cannot say it is evil.




Bolds and underlines are my addition above.

Yes, I agree. If the doctrine is inherently evil then you can say the religion is evil.

*PAKISTAN is mourning as the nation prepares for the mass funerals for 141 people, most of them children, killed in a Taliban attack on a military-run school in the country’s northwest.*

_The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) claimed responsibility for the assault, calling it revenge for a major military offensive in the region.
_

I wonder if they had been reading The Bible.

_Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants._  (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Surely an aberration. The God of The Bible surely wouldn't kill children

_The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived.  Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you.  It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone.  I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre.  But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered."  O LORD, what should I request for your people?  I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.  The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them.  I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions.  I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.  The people of Israel are stricken.  Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.  And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."_  (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

In one of the many recent ISIS atrocities, they stopped a bus and demanded that each passenger recite from memory passages of the Quran. Those that couldn't, including women and children, were beheaded. Thank God the Christian Bible isn't a source for such evil ideas.......

_"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."_  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

And we have seen ISIS justifying rape of captured women in their recently published manual on when rape is allowed. 

_Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked *and their wives raped by the attacking hordes*.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children._  (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Some other things to ponder.......

_This is what the Lord of  hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt.  Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban.  Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' _  (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

Islam advocates killing of apostates and non-believers. What does the Bible teach...

_(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came.  He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors."  The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day.  Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." _ (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Back to ISIS' manual and who can be raped.

Rape the virgins.....

_Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.*Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.*_ (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

_If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her._(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

_If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife._(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

_They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. _  (Judges 5:30 NAB)

What does Jesus of the New Testament have to say about the laws of the old testament.....

_"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished._  (Matthew 5:17-18)"


Yes, Christianity is truly based on a doctrine (not every last word, but a substantial amount) that is truly evil.


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## Tisme (18 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> _"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the* Law or the Prophets*; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished._  (Matthew 5:17-18)"
> 
> Yes, Christianity is truly based on a doctrine (not every last word, but a substantial amount) that is truly evil.





So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the *Law and the Prophets*. Matthew 7.12

Hardly evil unless you are a masochist


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## Calliope (18 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, Christianity is truly based on a doctrine (not every last word, but a substantial amount) that is truly evil.




That was then...this is now. If Christians are committing barbarities and atrocities now, on the same scale as those being perpetrated in the name of Allah, I think that those posters who make excuses for Islamic terrorism would be shouting it from the roof tops.


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## bellenuit (18 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the *Law and the Prophets*. Matthew 7.12
> 
> Hardly evil unless you are a masochist




Well clearly what Matthew said DOESN'T sum up the Laws of the Prophets. One can read the Laws of the Prophets in the Bible and "do unto others what you would have them do to you" is not a summation. Obviously one of the many inconsistencies in the Bible and in this case a blatant error. Surely having the Bible at out disposal we can judge whether Matthew has it right or not by that statement and any rational judgement would conclude he is mistaken. 

We can "think", so we do not need to conclude that two inconsistent statements can both be right. Only those who have "great faith" come to such a conclusion by suspending reason.


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## bellenuit (18 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> That was then...this is now. If Christians are committing barbarities and atrocities now, on the same scale as those being perpetrated in the name of Allah, I think that those posters who make excuses for Islamic terrorism would be shouting it from the roof tops.




I agree with your second sentence, but the first isn't applicable in relation to my response. My reply was in response to Pav's statement that if the doctrine is evil then the religion is evil. Clearly parts of the Christian doctrine are inherently evil. What's more, Pav has often claimed that our morality comes from the Bible and that that morality is permanent and unalterable. So there is no "That was then...". There is only one Christian God and that God issued commands to his followers to do actions comparable to that committed by present day ISIS or the Taliban. Jesus, as I have quoted from the New Testament, reiterated that the laws of the Old Testament were to be followed.

Yes, 99% of Christians are beyond that, thanks to the Reformation and Humanist thinking, but that's doesn't say the doctrine upon which the religion is based is not evil.


----------



## bellenuit (18 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the *Law and the Prophets*. Matthew 7.12




As an aside, if that were to sum up the Laws of the Prophets, then we could have been spared the whole Christianity meme. The same has been adequately expressed by others, some a long time before Matthew.

_*Buddhism*:  560 BC,  From the Udanavarga 5:18-   "Hurt not others with that which pains yourself."

*Hinduism*:  3200 BC, From the Hitopadesa-  "One should always treat others as they themselves wish to be treated."

*Zoroastrianism*:  600 BC, From the Shast-na-shayast 13:29-  "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself, do not do unto others."

*Confucianism*:  557 BC,  From the Analects  15:23-  "What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."_


----------



## Tisme (18 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> As an aside, if that were to sum up the Laws of the Prophets, then we could have been spared the whole Christianity meme. The same has been adequately expressed by others, some a long time before Matthew.
> 
> _*Buddhism*:  560 BC,  From the Udanavarga 5:18-   "Hurt not others with that which pains yourself."
> 
> ...




and "What's good for the goose, is good for the gander"


----------



## bellenuit (18 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, 99% of Christians are beyond that, thanks to the Reformation and Humanist thinking, but that's doesn't say the doctrine upon which the religion is based is not evil.




We are so fortunate that very few Christians (in current times) obey or worse still imitate many of the teachings and actions promoted and ordered by their Christian God. The exceptions seem to be a few nutters in Africa. 

However that does not take away the evil and vileness attributed by the Old Testament to the Christian God. 

Again, taking this passage I previously posted:

_"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."_ (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

There are similar passages in the Quran and Hadith extolling the commands and actions of the prophet Mohammed, but not having had a Reformation like Christianity had nor the influence of humanist thinking, groups like the Taliban literally imitate the deeds of their prophet.


----------



## noco (19 December 2014)

If this U-Tube doesn't scare the hell of people, then, I do not know what will.

Islam is progressing very well towards world domination through immigration (infiltration) and a birth rate far higher the any other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

Barack Obama confesses to being a Muslim and the Islamic population has increased democratically during his  time in office.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCAffMSWSzY


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2014)

noco said:


> If this U-Tube doesn't scare the hell of people, then, I do not know what will.
> 
> Islam is progressing very well towards world domination through immigration (infiltration) and a birth rate far higher the any other.
> 
> ...




I'm doing my part noco 

oh wait, I'm part of the Asian invasion problem.

You're forgetting something though... power and influence doesn't come from having the most people, it comes from having the most money.

In 2014, "A total of 1,645 people made the 2014 billionaire list, representing combined wealth of $6.4 trillion".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Billionaires

And the top 1% controls/own half the world's wealth. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/14/richest-1percent-half-global-wealth-credit-suisse-report


Scarface: "First you get the money; then you get the power; then you get the (women)"

Let us know when they control 20% of so of the world's wealth.


----------



## Muschu (19 December 2014)

noco said:


> If this U-Tube doesn't scare the hell of people, then, I do not know what will.
> 
> Islam is progressing very well towards world domination through immigration (infiltration) and a birth rate far higher the any other.
> 
> ...




I watched the first few minutes of this.  The narrator refers regularly to the research, or the historical research, but not to the research sources.

The "facts" may be correct or incorrect, but this U-tube, in isolation, adds little and presents as the views of an individual.


----------



## DeepState (19 December 2014)

noco said:


> If this U-Tube doesn't scare the hell of people, then, I do not know what will.
> 
> 1. Islam is progressing very well towards world domination through immigration (infiltration) and a birth rate far higher the any other.



















noco said:


> Barack Obama confesses to being a Muslim and the Islamic population has increased democratically during his  time in office.




Read the disclaimer.


----------



## bellenuit (27 December 2014)

I guess the father must have been reading the story of Abraham.

*Girl, 13: Boko Haram tried to force me to become a suicide bomber*

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/26/world/africa/nigeria-teenage-girl-suicide-bombing/index.html


----------



## IrishDigger (27 December 2014)

Read the following article,

Muslims and Westerners: The Psychological Differences

it's a worry.


----------



## Tisme (28 December 2014)

facebook circular


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## Tisme (28 December 2014)

German Bikies take on Isis

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2798507/now-german-biker-gangs-join-dutch-counterparts-fighting-against-isis-kobane.html


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## noco (1 January 2015)

MUSLIMS - this just says it all !!!

The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim 
The Beltway Snipers were Muslims 
The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim 
The underwear Bomber was a Muslim 
The U-S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims 
The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims 
The Bafi Nightclub Bombers were Muslims 
The London Subway Bombers were Muslims 
The Moscow Theatre Attackers were Muslims 
The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims 
The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims 
The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims 
The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims 
The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims 
The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Musiims 
The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims 
The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims 
The Kenyan U.S, Embassy Bombers were Muslims 
The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims 
The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims 
The Besian Russian School Attackers were Muslims 
The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims 
The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims 
The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims 
The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims'

Think of it: 

Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Christians = No Problem
Hindus living with Jews = No Problem
Christians living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem
Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Christians = No Problem
Christians living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Hindus = No Problem

Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha'is = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem
MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM

**********SO THIS LEAD TO ***************** 
They’re not happy in Gaza 
They're not happy in Egypt
They're not happy in Libya
They're not happy in Morocco
They're not happy in Iran
They're not happy in Iraq
They're not happy in Yemen
They're not happy in Afghanistan
They're not happy in Pakistan
They're not happy in Syria
They're not happy in Lebanon
They're not happy in Nigeria
They're not happy in Kenya
They're not happy in Sudan

******** So, where are they happy? **********
They're happy in Australia
They're happy in England
They're happy in Belgium
They're happy in France
They're happy in Italy
They're happy in Germany
They're happy in Sweden
They're happy in the USA & Canada
They're happy in Norway & India
They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic! And who do they blame? Not Islam... Not their leadership... Not themselves... THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!! And they want to change the countries they're happy in, to be like the countries they came from where they were unhappy and finally they will be get hammered
!!!! 

Islamic Jihad: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
ISIS: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
AND A LOT MORE !!!!!!!

Think on it.......


----------



## Calliope (1 January 2015)

I have no doubt that the greatest threat to world peace is the Muslim Diaspora. Their goals amd their methods are certainly evil. Unfortunately we have no world leaders prepared to face up to them, as Reagan and Thatcher diid to the Soviet Evil Empire.

Meanwhile the greatest threat to Australia's economy is the evil Axis of Shorten/Milne/Palmer whose sole aim is Budget Wrecking and to hell with the consequences.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> I have no doubt that the greatest threat to world peace is the Muslim Diaspora. Their goals amd their methods are certainly evil. Unfortunately we have no world leaders prepared to face up to them, as Reagan and Thatcher diid to the Soviet Evil Empire.




The greatest threat to world peace is the arms trade that allows people to settle their differences by killing each other.

The Russian empire is still evil, and the Chinese will gradually take control of other economies which will lead to a revolt by western democracies against the increasingly pressing thumb of Chinese imperialism.

A few terrorists here and there wont amount to much against the might of a nuclear armed dictatorship.



> Meanwhile the greatest threat to Australia's economy is the evil Axis of Shorten/Milne/Palmer whose sole aim is Budget Wrecking and to hell with the consequences.




Pure Right wing propaganda deserving no response.


----------



## noco (1 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The greatest threat to world peace is the arms trade that allows people to settle their differences by killing each other.
> 
> The Russian empire is still evil, and the Chinese will gradually take control of other economies which will lead to a revolt by western democracies against the increasingly pressing thumb of Chinese imperialism.
> 
> ...




Come on Rumpy, you know that is not right wing propaganda....You know damn well, the Green/Labor socialist left wing Fabians and to a lesser degree PUP are doing their best to wreck our economy......You lefties are complaining about the Abbott Government over spending and it is because your socialist mob in the senate are preventing necessary cuts...They won't even agree to allow the Government to cut some $6 billion which which Shorten promise to do before the 2013 election.

Shorten wants the economy to get worse...he has not one iota of interest in the welfare of the nation...as I said before Abbott is trying to put out the fire and Shorten just keeps pouring on petrol to keep it alight.....What sort of Australian is he?
I would like to answer that but the moderator might give me a warning because my language would not be in keeping with ASF standards.

Sorry, I realized this post is a bit off topic but nevertheless the reply is in order.


----------



## pixel (1 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The greatest threat to world peace is the arms trade that allows people to settle their differences by killing each other.



You got it in one, Sir R.
But there's too much profit in arms trade; otherwise, the Gun Lobby would've long since been swept aside by voices of reason from those who lost a loved one. 


> The Russian empire is still evil,



... not if you ask Putin or anyone whose survival depends on Vlad...


> and the Chinese will gradually take control of other economies which will lead to a revolt by western democracies against the increasingly pressing thumb of Chinese imperialism.



Again: Considering the respective sizes of populations involved, a poll comparing emerging Chinese imperialism to historic Western-style, especially US, imperialism might produce some surprising results...


> A few terrorists here and there wont amount to much against the might of a nuclear armed dictatorship.



Let's hope that "a few terrorists" don't get their hands on nukes of their own.


> Pure Right wing propaganda deserving no response.



The fact that we even have to discuss party politics in this contexts is IMHO proof that, globally, Australia is still in an enviable position.


----------



## chiff (1 January 2015)

Another view was from the song of sixties,something like "he is the universal soldier and he really is to blame-he is fighting for the peace of all"
Not to worry ,if we do not pay attention to the media we can all go on leading lotus eater lives.A few years ago it was Indonesia that was the threat,who is it now?
Rupert Murdoch will surely tell us.


----------



## noco (1 January 2015)

chiff said:


> Another view was from the song of sixties,something like "he is the universal soldier and he really is to blame-he is fighting for the peace of all"
> Not to worry ,if we do not pay attention to the media we can all go on leading lotus eater lives.A few years ago it was Indonesia that was the threat,who is it now?
> Rupert Murdoch will surely tell us.




Wasn't it Rudd who stated Indonesia would be at war with Australia over Abbott stopping the people smugglers?


----------



## chiff (1 January 2015)

Well before Rudd Noco....when they were seeking an enemy over 20 years ago it was Indonesia.
By the way Noco did you believe that there WMDs in Iraq.Socrates Bolt certainly did,as did every Murdoch journalist and newspaper.If they didn't they too scared of losing their jobs  to say so.
You would have learnt then how inculcation and propaganda works.It was relentless.
Anyway you opened up the New Year spreading your bonhomie to us all.Best wishes to you to!


----------



## macca (1 January 2015)

chiff said:


> Well before Rudd Noco....when they were seeking an enemy over 20 years ago it was Indonesia.
> By the way Noco did you believe that there WMDs in Iraq.Socrates Bolt certainly did,as did every Murdoch journalist and newspaper.If they didn't they too scared of losing their jobs  to say so.




If the Iraqi scientists working on the WMD program had told Saddam Hussein they had not been successful in creating WMDs they would have lost a lot more than their jobs 

The intelligence said WMDs existed because that is what the scientists told SH .


----------



## chiff (1 January 2015)

macca said:


> If the Iraqi scientists working on the WMD program had told Saddam Hussein they had not been successful in creating WMDs they would have lost a lot more than their jobs
> 
> The intelligence said WMDs existed because that is what the scientists told SH .



I can see that you were a believer!


----------



## luutzu (1 January 2015)

noco said:


> MUSLIMS - this just says it all !!!
> 
> The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim
> The Beltway Snipers were Muslims
> ...




This is one way to start the new year.


----------



## luutzu (1 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The greatest threat to world peace is the arms trade that allows people to settle their differences by killing each other.
> 
> The Russian empire is still evil, and the Chinese will gradually take control of other economies which will lead to a revolt by western democracies against the increasingly pressing thumb of Chinese imperialism.
> 
> ...




Expanding into a nuclear-armed former superpower's sphere of influence, forming alliances to sanction and halved its main exports' revenue... that sounds mighty dangerous.  I think WW2 kinda got started with post WW1 Germans buying a loaf of bread with a barrelful of money.

Then pivoting to Asia where the sleeping dragon has been getting well fed from both your manufacturers, industries and now getting extra helpings from that Bear you've isolated and upset... How do you sanction or weaken China without damaging your own economies and upsetting a few handfuls of your multinationals and billionaires... maybe need to feed the Tigers to keep the Dragon in line.. .then destroy the Tigers again.

It's going to be one heck of a century.

I think Einstein said that the wars after WW3 will be fought with sticks and stones.


----------



## noco (1 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> This is one way to start the new year.




Why is that?.....don't you like the truth?

You cannot deny the facts.


----------



## macca (2 January 2015)

chiff said:


> I can see that you were a believer!




Yes, I am a believer that SH would kill anyone who failed him, it is a well reported fact.

It was also well reported during the war that they found many 200L drums marked as toxic chemicals, these were tested and then destroyed, after the test results showed that they were not WMD people saw fit to criticise the intelligence.

That they were able to locate the drums so quickly confirms the intelligence was in fact right, what was wrong was that SH Believed he had WMDs when in fact the scientists were to afraid to tell him.

They were trying to make them, witness the testing on the Kurds, but they were unstable and could not be stored for long periods.

This all came to light when they interviewed the scientists after they were allowed to migrate to USA and Europe after the Iraqi war.

Not very exciting news so only appeared in specialist websites.


----------



## basilio (2 January 2015)

noco said:


> Why is that?.....don't you like the truth?
> 
> You cannot deny the facts.




NOCO 

You can't tell facts from fiction.  

You don't care what facts are.

You can't read scientific journals

You can't be reasoned with.

You won't be reasoned with.


----------



## noco (2 January 2015)

basilio said:


> NOCO
> 
> You can't tell facts from fiction.
> 
> ...




Wow!!!!!!!!!! ...looks like I have hit a nerve in your wisdom tooth......where did all that come from?

Please tell me what is incorrect about the Muslims as stated?


----------



## luutzu (2 January 2015)

noco said:


> Wow!!!!!!!!!! ...looks like I have hit a nerve in your wisdom tooth......where did all that come from?
> 
> Please tell me what is incorrect about the Muslims as stated?




I think it came from a sense of outrage from reading lopsided, selective facts and half-truths mixed in with extreme prejudice.


----------



## basilio (2 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I think it came from a sense of outrage from reading lopsided, selective facts and half-truths mixed in with extreme prejudice.




And a refusal to engage with a person who parades such gibberish as facts.


----------



## noco (2 January 2015)

basilio said:


> And a refusal to engage with a person who parades such gibberish as facts.




So please tell what is not true?

You lefties always carry on with a lot of disabled rhetoric that does not make any sense.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (8 January 2015)

Let us all spare a thought for the Cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo killed by Islamists in Paris, and their grieving families. 

The Pen is mightier than the Kalashnikov.





gg


----------



## So_Cynical (9 January 2015)

Click the link to see some very poignant (not sure if that's the right word) cartoons from around the world re the Paris attack.

http://www.triplem.com.au/sydney/br...und-the-world-react-to-charlie-hebdo-attacks/


----------



## Tisme (9 January 2015)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11.
> 
> I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.
> 
> ...




Well Garpal I'm starting to think loyalty to the Islamic master will gazump any loyalty to friendship, citizenship and even immediate family. Indoctrinating children into accepting a nonsense of salvation through religion (man made by default) and killing must make a permanent stain on the brain it seems.

Are we sure any of our Islamic mates will be our mates when the rally cry goes out? Have any of our mates started up with the Arab ways, the wifes dressing like biblical desert dwellers .....?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 January 2015)

Tisme said:
			
		

> Well Garpal I'm starting to think loyalty to the Islamic master will gazump any loyalty to friendship, citizenship and even immediate family.




Indeed so. Fathers murdering their daughters for daring to oppose their forced marriages is one such example.

If someone is going to kill their own family, then they wont have much compunction about killing anyone else.


----------



## Calliope (9 January 2015)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Let us all spare a thought for the Cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo killed by Islamists in Paris, and their grieving families.
> 
> The Pen is mightier than the Kalashnikov.




View attachment 61037


You've got that wrong gg. The Charlie Hebdo atrocity has just reinforced the attitude of editors that there will be no more satirical cartoons of the prophet Mohammed. They now know that there is now nowhere they can hide from the Islamic Kalashnokov. If they have police protection, they just kill the police too.

Even Obama, who is often said to be leader of the free world, did not dare to mention Islam in conjunction with the atrocity while expressing condolences to France. Freedom of expression has been dying for some time, but Islam has put the final nail in that coffin.


----------



## Macquack (9 January 2015)

Calliope, what is your solution to this problem?


----------



## bellenuit (9 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Even Obama, who is often said to be leader of the free world, did not dare to mention Islam in conjunction with the atrocity while expressing condolences to France.




Unfortunately our own PM is not averse to obfuscation by his monotonously repetitive use of the term "Death Cult" when referring to ISIS rather than the more accurately descriptive "Extreme Barbaric Islamists"


----------



## bellenuit (9 January 2015)

Let's not forget that Saudi blogger Raif Badawi is to be lashed *today* after Friday prayer for "insulting" Islam. 

*Saudi blogger to be publicly flogged on charges he insulted Islam*

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/saudi-arabia-blogger-raif-badawi-public-flogging


----------



## Calliope (9 January 2015)

Macquack said:


> Calliope, what is your solution to this problem?




Islam is evil Mac. The first thing we should have done was stop trying to distinguish between radical jihadist Muslims and  moderate Muslims. They  are all part and parcel of the same thing...to spread the evil ideology by the sword.

There's now no solution to the "problem" Mac. The tipping point has been passed... It is all slippery slopes from now on.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Islam is evil Mac. The first thing we should have done was stop trying to distinguish between radical jihadist Muslims and  moderate Muslims. They  are all part and parcel of the same thing...to spread the evil ideology by the sword.




Are you aware that a lot of terrorist attacks have been thwarted by tipoffs from a radical Muslim's moderate family ?


----------



## Calliope (9 January 2015)

"a lot"? how many? where? when?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> "a lot"? how many? where? when?




http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2014/10/06/paul-bongiorno-terror-laws-hurting-help/


----------



## Calliope (9 January 2015)

Just as I thought...nothing but p!ss & wind. Is leftist Paul Bongiorno's 3 month old garbage the best you can do?


----------



## Julia (9 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2014/10/06/paul-bongiorno-terror-laws-hurting-help/




You cite an opinion piece from the notoriously Left journalist Paul Bongiorno who has long been an apologist for Islam in its entirety.  It provides no justification for the claim that 'many' terrorist attacks have been thwarted by the Muslim community.

All it says even remotely to this effect is


> Without Muslims helping agencies to infiltrate extremist cells and identify the radicals among them, the task of pre-empting attacks and defending the broader community would be so much harder. The 2005 arrests of men in Melbourne and Sydney under Operation Pendennis followed tip-offs from Melbourne’s Muslims.




That mentions just the one instance on Pendennis.

I simply don't understand why you - and for that matter the Prime Minister - are so averse to facing reality.

Someone suggested Mr Abbott's use of the term 'death cult'  in regard to the Sydney siege, and its avoidance of the word 'terrorism', was because he was aware of disqualification of insurance claims by anyone affected by this event, given that payout in a case of terrorism is declined by most insurance companies.
I have no idea whether this is a valid suggestion or not.


----------



## luutzu (9 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Just as I thought...nothing but p!ss & wind. Is leftist Paul Bongiorno's 3 month old garbage the best you can do?




Let say this is a war of civilisations, Islam against us.  That since they started it, we now retaliate and stick it to all the Muslims we see. Do you think we're going to win? I mean, we will win militarily against them for sure... but at what costs?

Outrage and a need to smash something is understandable... but wars are not won by outrage and anger. Battles can be won that way, not war.

If we declare war on Islam, assuming that that is the honest and correct and justified thing to do, assuming... We would be doing what, according to former CIA analyst, bin Laden Unit leader Michael Sherer, is bin Laden's plan all along. That all his plans and actions are not designed to take on the US/West directly - he know he and his few guys can't do it; but to provoke us to take the war against Islam and all Muslims.

In war, probably best not to do what the enemy planned and prayed we'd do.

More importantly, as if that is not important enough... but doing so is wrong.

Wrong against our own law and values; wrong against reality.


If we see terrorist acts like this for what it is - an attack against us in a war we have been and are waging - then it is obvious this is not a war between religions, but between conflicting interests - our interests against their interests.

So in war, we do what we can to put them down; they do what they can to put us down.

We have the drones, the jets... so we master the air and the grounds; they have little or none of that... but they share a common religion with some of our citizens... and like any power would, they have and will use that to recruit among our people those most likely to fight for their cause.

Just as there were Britons who spied and work for Nazi Germany against their own people; just as some non-Russian Australians or Americans spied and work for Communist Russia during the cold war against their country... here too, some Australian Muslims may be recruited or are willing to fight for the enemy. And as we've seen in some of those videos by ISIS, those who turned may not be Arab Muslims... that's just how war is.


I don't believe what I said is for political correctness, or apologising for Muslims, or some idealism... it's just my understanding of the situation. 

So we can call Islam and Muslims names, call for their exile, call for laws forbidding their rights to practice their religion and worship their God, ban their cultural practices or whatever... or we can try to see what this is how we're going to deal with it, who we're going to want to help us... 

Maybe then  we may start to win this thing... because seriously, when all it takes to put a country and economy on hold is a couple of guys with a couple guns, it's not a good sign.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 January 2015)

Julia said:
			
		

> I simply don't understand why you - and for that matter the Prime Minister - are so averse to facing reality.




Typical attack dog response without a solution.

I've said many times that we have made a rod for our own backs by allowing large scale Muslim immigration. Now we have to do something about it.

We either get people onside who are able to give information about terrorists or we marginalise them and have blood on the streets in some sort of civil war with vigilantes on both sides throwing Molotov cocktails. Is that what you want ?

If you have another solution, then kindly suggest one because I haven't seen much in the way of alternative approaches from you or anyone else.

I put it to you that moderate Muslims who want to live in this country without harassment would be far more likely to turn informer than risk guilt by association and the subsequent heavy hand of the law on them. Are you really saying that every Muslim in this country is a supporter of terrorism ? If not then what do you mean by the statement I quoted above ?


----------



## SirRumpole (10 January 2015)

And if you don't believe Paul Bonjourno, perhaps you will believe former head of the AFP Mick Keelty



> After the first terrorist attacks, Mr Keelty made two crucial decisions -- to improve relations between the police and the Islamic community as a matter of urgency and to forge close links with police from Asia on issues of transnational crime and terrorism.
> 
> Last night, he told The Australian he did feel vindicated by Lady Manningham-Buller's testimony.
> 
> ...


----------



## Calliope (10 January 2015)

Poor old rumpy. You researched diligently through the night to try to find a rebuttal and the best you can come up is an outdated article on Keelty. Still no details on your nonsense assertion;



> Are you aware that a lot of terrorist attacks have been thwarted by tipoffs from a radical Muslim's moderat family




Except to change the rhetoric to



> I put it to you that moderate Muslims who want to live in this country without harassment would be far more likely to turn informer than risk guilt by association and  and the subsequent heavy hand of the law on them




Could you give some details of these poor harrassed moderate muslims? Harassed by whom?

As for your question;



> Are you really saying that every Muslim in this country is a supporter of terrorism ?




They are supporters of Islam, rumpy, which is a religion of terror.

Back to Google rumpy.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> They are supporters of Islam, rumpy, which is a religion of terror.




Well then, I suggest you dust off the old KKK headgear and go beat up a few towel heads to teach them a lesson.


----------



## Calliope (10 January 2015)

Your lack of sleep is affecting your brain, rumpy.

As Mark Twain said;

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."


----------



## Julia (10 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Typical attack dog response without a solution.



Not an attack:  just pointing out that it's inaccurate to say "a lot of " attacks have been prevented when you only quoted one and that that was from an opinion piece by a journalist widely known for his hard Left and pro-muslim philosophy.

I'd pay about as much attention to Bongiorno as I would to Andrew Bolt.



> We either get people onside who are able to give information about terrorists or we marginalise them and have blood on the streets in some sort of civil war with vigilantes on both sides throwing Molotov cocktails. Is that what you want ?



What I would want would have been never to have allowed them to flood into the country the way they did under Labor in the first place.  Just a taxi service after they'd flown across several countries more suited to their religion and politics, paid people smugglers, junked their valid documentation and, if necessary, sabotaged the vessel on which they were travelling.  "Nothing we can do about it", said Labor.  "It's all about push factors".



> If you have another solution, then kindly suggest one because I haven't seen much in the way of alternative approaches from you or anyone else.



I'm just a member of the public.  I don't even know any muslims.  None of them in any apparent way up here.
Not my responsibility to provide solutions and neither do I expect to be asked to do so because I've pointed out that your "lots of attacks" was just one and even that is according to a journalist whom I'd consider to be flaky.



> I put it to you that moderate Muslims who want to live in this country without harassment would be far more likely to turn informer than risk guilt by association and the subsequent heavy hand of the law on them. Are you really saying that every Muslim in this country is a supporter of terrorism ? If not then what do you mean by the statement I quoted above ?



I have no idea whether they are or not.  As I said, I don't know any.  So I have no basis for an opinion.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 January 2015)

Julia said:


> I have no idea whether they are or not.  As I said, I don't know any.  So I have no basis for an opinion.




So what is your idea of the "reality" that you suggest I and Tony Abbott face up to ?

Of course most of us would prefer that Muslim immigration didn't happen in the first place, but they weren't all refugees. Howard, Rudd and Gillard  let a lot in via mainstream migration programs. This has to be cut back. So do welfare programs that favour large families. However every war has it's spies and informants and we should cultivate those, as well as use other intelligence gathering methods.

Saying "it never should have happened in the first place", while being a correct statement doesn't help us face the situation we have now.

What is your response to the statement from Mick Keelty ?


----------



## Calliope (10 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> What is your response to the statement from Mick Keelty ?




That was then.(July 2010)...this is now! In fact if you go further back you will turn up a guy who said we should "turn the other ckeek". Back to Google rumpy and more burning of the midnight oil..


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## Julia (10 January 2015)

Rumpole, the 'reality' is very clearly described by Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her interview with "7.30" last night.

She says it more clearly and effectively than I ever could.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4160195.htm


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## Julia (10 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> What is your response to the statement from Mick Keelty ?



I don't have one.  That was then, this is now.  Mr Keelty is no longer in any relevant position afaik and neither is such an old statement of any real value at this stage.

It's really not obligatory on all of us to hold clear opinions on everything that happens or doesn't, Rumpole.
Especially if we're not in a position to offer a properly informed view.

I don't know, eg, how you're so certain 'ordinary' Muslims - while not acting in any untoward way themselves - do not consider punishment of those who insult their god or prophet or whatever they worship, to be just and in accordance with their holy book.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 January 2015)

Julia said:


> I don't know, eg, how you're so certain 'ordinary' Muslims - while not acting in any untoward way themselves - do not consider punishment of those who insult their god or prophet or whatever they worship, to be just and in accordance with their holy book.




I just wonder if we are attributing a higher degree of devoutness than warranted to people of  certain faiths just because they may profess to be of that faith. They may consider themselves Muslim (or Catholic, or CofE) because their parents were , and not because they have much belief in the Holy Words. 

I've said before that religion is a social club to many people. Their friends and family go there, so do they. Deep in their hearts do they really believe the Scriptures or is it just a password to the "club".

Sure, some Muslims inwardly celebrate when "infidels" are punished, I think many Australians would also celebrate when revenge attacks against Muslims are carried out. Is there any real difference between the "tribes" ?. People who don't belong to the tribe are outed, and you don't need religion for that either, just watch a Collingwood football game.


----------



## lindsayf (10 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I just wonder if we are attributing a higher degree of devoutness than warranted to people of  certain faiths just because they may profess to be of that faith. They may consider themselves Muslim (or Catholic, or CofE) because their parents were , and not because they have much belief in the Holy Words.
> 
> I've said before that religion is a social club to many people. Their friends and family go there, so do they. Deep in their hearts do they really believe the Scriptures or is it just a password to the "club".
> 
> Sure, some Muslims inwardly celebrate when "infidels" are punished, I think many Australians would also celebrate when revenge attacks against Muslims are carried out. Is there any real difference between the "tribes" ?. People who don't belong to the tribe are outed, and you don't need religion for that either, just watch a Collingwood football game.




The analogy is too loose for me.
The tribes are the 'muslims' and the 'infidels' yes?  And your point is that both tribes may celebrate to one degree or another, the  perceived 'just' punishment of the other.  On that basis you equate them.  Then you give Collingwood football club as an example of a non religious 'tribe' that behaves aggressively towards other non religious tribes ie Carlton and this demonstrates therefore that we are all tribes and none can hold any moral superiority over the other.  Is this what you are saying here?

I will grant the analogy when an group of Collingwood or Carlton players commit mass murder in the name of their club code of ethics, or out of offence created by a newspaper cartoonist.  I will further grant the analogy when the majority of the remaining Club supporters are silent or passively ( or overtly) condone the murders.

In  my opinion a tribe is not a tribe is not a tribe.  Key differences are in the doctrine laid out in the magic books and the behaviours and rationales for those behaviours that can only be fully understood on that basis.

On a different level I do get what you are meaning here but the analogy is not a good one.


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## SirRumpole (10 January 2015)

> On a different level I do get what you are meaning here but the analogy is not a good one.




Then consider hutu and tutsi in Rwanda. No religious differences there, they were just two tribes who didn't like each other.

About a million people died in that conflict.

Makes the religious wars look small by comparison.

http://worldnews.about.com/od/africa/f/tutsihutu.htm


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## pixel (10 January 2015)

In today's Weekend West, I find a very informative article that clarifies the different aspects of Islam. I could not find an electronic copy on The West's website, so I hope I can attach the scanned images.







(Click on the text and if the writing is still too small, use Ctrl + to increase the size.)

IMHO, it confirms my long-held conviction that all three Religions of the Book are comparable in the potential effects on their victims and followers.
Puritan forms of Islam, Christianity, Judaism are all carrying the seed of evil:

intolerance, 
smug conviction of one's supremacy,
hatred of infidels/ pagans/ gentiles,
urge to proselytise with fire and sword.
I find it quite telling that the Taliban is murdering school children, that wide sections of US "Christians" insist on Creationism being taught instead of Science. (Not sure about Zionists, maybe someone can add their relevant insight.)
The better educated modern-day members of either faith are, the greater their enlightenment and tolerance of others they become. It is the acceptance of other belief systems and tolerance towards all humans, that makes us worthy of the title Homo Sapiens. Any congregation with an attitude short of such civilised behaviour leaves its members stuck in primeval tribalism, racism, and barely above the level of Stone-Age cavemen.

PS: I also agree with another opinion piece in today's issue: https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/25950883/wa-islamic-leaders-must-do-more/


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## SirRumpole (10 January 2015)

> Any congregation with an attitude short of such civilised behaviour leaves its members stuck in primeval tribalism, racism, and barely above the level of Stone-Age cavemen.




Indeed so. 

What is going to be hardest to crack is the inherited religious dogma, passed down from fathers to sons and mothers to daughters, especially when the requirement to observe certain practises results in family discipline or isolationism when not observed by the children.

The only way out of this as I see it is to ban religious schools altogether and give children the benefits of a secular education hoping that will counteract the nonsense taught at home, but can anyone really see that suggestion getting through Parliament ? The religions have too much grip on politics for that to happen.


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## pixel (10 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Indeed so.
> 
> What is going to be hardest to crack is the inherited religious dogma, passed down from fathers to sons and mothers to daughters, especially when the requirement to observe certain practises results in family discipline or isolationism when not observed by the children.
> 
> The only way out of this as I see it is to ban religious schools altogether and give children the benefits of a secular education hoping that will counteract the nonsense taught at home, but can anyone really see that suggestion getting through Parliament ?* The religions have too much grip on politics for that to happen*.




Sad, but true.

The last chance - if we ever had one - went with PM Bob Hawke, who had/ still has a clear understanding of the damage religious indoctrination can do to impressionable minds. Could he have secularised Australia on the wave of the America's Cup success in 1983? It's a moot point, too late now in any case.

Paul Keating may have been a similar free spirit, but he believed so much in his own importance that it didn't occur to him to take any other creed serious.

John Howard, Kevin Rudd, and now Tony Abbott are all part of the problem. Whether they really "believe" in the Christian Faith must be put in serious doubt; but a significant number of their voters won't know or care, as long as they're seen to attend Church on Christmas, kiss babies, and talk the talk.


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## Julia (10 January 2015)

lindsayf said:


> The analogy is too loose for me.
> The tribes are the 'muslims' and the 'infidels' yes?  And your point is that both tribes may celebrate to one degree or another, the  perceived 'just' punishment of the other.  On that basis you equate them.  Then you give Collingwood football club as an example of a non religious 'tribe' that behaves aggressively towards other non religious tribes ie Carlton and this demonstrates therefore that we are all tribes and none can hold any moral superiority over the other.  Is this what you are saying here?
> 
> I will grant the analogy when an group of Collingwood or Carlton players commit mass murder in the name of their club code of ethics, or out of offence created by a newspaper cartoonist.  I will further grant the analogy when the majority of the remaining Club supporters are silent or passively ( or overtly) condone the murders.
> ...



My response exactly.  How you can compare football club rivalry with mass murder is beyond me.



pixel said:


> IMHO, it confirms my long-held conviction that all three Religions of the Book are comparable in the potential effects on their victims and followers.
> Puritan forms of Islam, Christianity, Judaism are all carrying the seed of evil:



Are they all demonstrating equal levels of violence toward those who fail to adhere to their beliefs?
viz in particular the slaying of all in Syria who refused to convert, and even the subsequent killing of those who did convert.



> I find it quite telling that the Taliban is murdering school children, that wide sections of US "Christians" insist on Creationism being taught instead of Science.



Of course creationism is garbage and absolutely should not be taught to any children, but to equate it with the killing, not to mention the kidnapping for the sexual slave trade, of many Christian children is just not reasonable.



> The better educated modern-day members of either faith are, the greater their enlightenment and tolerance of others they become.



Agree absolutely, but the full and complete secular education of all people, sufficient to wipe out irrational beliefs in gods, prophets or whatever, isn't going to happen quickly, if ever.


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## pixel (11 January 2015)

Julia said:


> Are they all demonstrating equal levels of violence toward those who fail to adhere to their beliefs?
> viz in particular the slaying of all in Syria who refused to convert, and even the subsequent killing of those who did convert.
> 
> Of course creationism is garbage and absolutely should not be taught to any children, but to equate it with the killing, not to mention the kidnapping for the sexual slave trade, of many Christian children is just not reasonable.
> ...




Julia, in reply to your criticism here and on my historical quotes:

I cannot recall where I said they were "equal", I said the *potential *for evil lies in each *puritan *belief in one's own supremacy. I am sure that same thought applies to tribalism in the AFL. 
Some tribes may have become more civilised than others, but the veneer on top of Caveman mentality is globally still very thin. In terms of human evolution, a few 100 or even 1000 years don't give Christians or Jews the right to feel smug about their being "more advanced" than the current crop of radicalised "evil" Islamists. 

And, sadly, you are right about mankind's inability to agree on a rational education. If even our States can't agree on a common syllabus, the World has a snowball's chance in a globally warmed climate.

Just my .


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## UMike (11 January 2015)

Is Islam inherently evil????

Yes going on yesterdays events.

Bomb strapped to girl 'about 10 years old' kills 19 in Nigeria

Should be massive outrage against this.
Would be if it was in a westernised country.
Waiting for the Islamic denunciations.


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## Julia (11 January 2015)

pixel said:


> I cannot recall where I said they were "equal",



pixel, I didn't say you did.  I raised the question.  For me your statement just further demonstrates the potential evil of all religion.


> I said the *potential *for evil lies in each *puritan *belief in one's own supremacy. I am sure that same thought applies to tribalism in the AFL.
> Some tribes may have become more civilised than others, but the veneer on top of Caveman mentality is globally still very thin. In terms of human evolution, a few 100 or even 1000 years don't give Christians or Jews the right to feel smug about their being "more advanced" than the current crop of radicalised "evil" Islamists.



I don't know about that.  Some people consider all human beings have absolute potential for evil.  That sounds emotive and exaggerated to me.

And I'm not sure I'd use the descriptor "smug" about anyone, be it atheists, Christians, Jews, whatever, at this time.   What I feel and what I observe in others is anger, bewilderment that people whose religion is taken with such utter uncritical acceptance in the so called word of some so called prophet can assume that gives them the right to take the lives of people who do not share that belief.

I'm not setting out to be argumentative, just expressing my own anxiety that - in the West's polite desire to be all inclusive, accepting of all faiths, etc., we are hastening our own downfall.


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## SirRumpole (11 January 2015)

Julia said:


> I'm not setting out to be argumentative, just expressing my own anxiety that - in the West's polite desire to be all inclusive, accepting of all faiths, etc., we are hastening our own downfall.




A fair enough feeling to have, but there has to be some thought given to a strategy to avoid our "downfall" beyond just slaughtering ISIS fighters in  Syria or whatever.

So maybe there has to be a verbal attack on the tenants of religion in general by our policy makers, but it comes back to votes. No politicians are going to attack the beliefs of people who vote for them. If you attack the tenants of Islam, then you also attack the tenants of Christianity and Judaism by implication.

Maybe there is room for an "anti religion" political party. If it was composed of reasonable people  then I would vote for them, but unless they are proposing to make religion illegal then there is not much difference to any other party, other than on issues where religion interferes like euthanasia, gay marriage, abortion etc.

 So I come back to my original assertion that the best way to stop terrorism is not by trying to destroy religion, but by dividing the moderates from the extremists, and lets face it, the extremists are in the minority because they are mentally cracked. No sane person would do what they are doing, and I very much doubt if any reasonable person would want to associate with the extremist brand of thinking.

So please don't just complain about the situation without offering alternatives. There is no point.


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## Calliope (11 January 2015)

> So I come back to my original assertion that the best way to stop terrorism is not by trying to destroy religion, but by dividing the moderates from the extremists, and lets face it, the extremists are in the minority because they are mentally cracked. No sane person would do what they are doing, and I very much doubt if any reasonable person would want to associate with the extremist brand of thinking




I know a good way to separate them You just put a sign up at the Mosque entrance saying;.

* Moderate Muslims Left...Radical Moslems Right*

Unless Rumpy knows a better way.


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## Julia (11 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So please don't just complain about the situation without offering alternatives. There is no point.




Rumpole, since when do you have the right to demand that people may not post their concerns without offering solutions?  

I think few people have the experience, training and expertise to know exactly how what we're presently experiencing can be effectively dealt with.  If they did, they're hardly likely to be found on a stock forum rather than in some international relations position.

And btw, you might have meant "tenet", rather than 'tenant'

'tenet':  a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy.
"the tenets of classical liberalism"


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## Bintang (11 January 2015)

Julia said:


> Rumpole, since when do you have the right to demand that people may not post their concerns without offering solutions?
> 
> I think few people have the experience, training and expertise to know exactly how what we're presently experiencing can be effectively dealt with.  If they did, they're hardly likely to be found on a stock forum rather than in some international relations position.




There might also be some people on this forum who do have solutions to offer but if they dared to put details of their ideas forward they will get castigated.  That's because so many people are unwilling to face the reality that we are confronted by a ruthless determined enemy who wants to destroy us and will exploit all our weaknesses. The only effective solutions are unpleasant and controversial and will get rejected much as the pacifist sympathisers of the 1930's refused to allow Britain to re-arm itself.


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## SirRumpole (11 January 2015)

Julia said:


> Rumpole, since when do you have the right to demand that people may not post their concerns without offering solutions?




OK, Ill back off on that. I just thought that as there was criticism of people "whining" about budget measures without offering alternatives the same may apply to this topic.




> I think few people have the experience, training and expertise to know exactly how what we're presently experiencing can be effectively dealt with.  If they did, they're hardly likely to be found on a stock forum rather than in some international relations position.




The point of view of an expert, ex AFP commissioner Mick Keelty was put forward and dismissed, so that appeared to me as though some alternative expert knowledge was being exhibited.



> And btw, you might have meant "tenet", rather than 'tenant'
> 
> 'tenet':  a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy.
> "the tenets of classical liberalism"




Yes, I did, and I stand corrected.



> There might also be some people on this forum who do have solutions to offer but if they dared to put details of their ideas forward they will get castigated. That's because so many people are unwilling to face the reality that we are confronted by a ruthless determined enemy who wants to destroy us and will exploit all our weaknesses. The only effective solutions are unpleasant and controversial and will get rejected much as the pacifist sympathisers of the 1930's refused to allow Britain to re-arm itself.




No one knows who you are, so go for it if you aren't afraid of a debate. How about greater use of sedition laws against Islamic leaders who recruit ISIL fighters ? I would agree with that, anyone else ?


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## Bintang (11 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> I know a good way to separate them You just put a sign up at the Mosque entrance saying;.
> 
> * Moderate Muslims Left...Radical Moslems Right*
> 
> Unless Rumpy knows a better way.




Calliope, you have me confused. How about *Moderate Moslems* and *Radical Muslims*?
Which way should they go?


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## Bintang (11 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> No one knows who you are …..




Are you really, really sure about this?  Edward Snowden might disagree with you.



SirRumpole said:


> How about greater use of sedition laws against Islamic leaders who recruit ISIL fighters ? I would agree with that, anyone else ?




I second that.
And as posted on the "West has lost its freedom of speech thread" I advocate World War 2 style internment camps.


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## Julia (11 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The point of view of an expert, ex AFP commissioner Mick Keelty was put forward and dismissed, so that appeared to me as though some alternative expert knowledge was being exhibited.



Let's just be accurate here:  what was rejected was the relevance of anything said five years ago, given how much has changed since then.
That is quite different from specifically rejecting 'a solution' if indeed that is what was then offered.


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## galumay (11 January 2015)

Solutions to the predicament we find ourselves in will be difficult to implement, firstly there is a general lack of understanding of the factors that drive the extremism, a lack of if understanding that Western Civilisation initiated terrorism with the Christian Crusades, the first recorded instances of civilians being used as pawns in the theatre of religious warfare. We started this deadly game, and until we accept that fact and the impact it has on others then we are doomed to be victims of our history.

Secondly we, as Western 'Christian' nations have continued to wage terrorism at unprecedented levels, the carpet bombing of Dresden (civilians the specific target.), Hiroshima and Nagasaki, (the single greatest acts of terrorism ever), napalming of the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese, (terrorism on a new scale of depravity). The illegal invasion of Iraq, (now conceded by Western Governments.) All of these events add to the not unreasonable belief that "anything goes" in the name of your religion/culture/politics, regardless of the damage to innocents and civilians.

I have no idea what the solution is, but until we understand the very large part 'we' as Western Christian cultures have played in creating the current situation we have no hope of solving it.

Unfortunately racism and xenophobia in countries like Australia actually play into the extremists hands, there are about 2 billion Moslims in the world, and most of them dont support the extremist loonies, but every time we respond with racism or xenophobia the numbers supporting the extremists will increase. 

The response of Australians to the seige in Martin Place, with the #ridewithme concept is the better way to disarm the exremists. (even thought the Martin Place siege was not terrorism anyway, just the act of a deranged criminal.)

Ultimately all acts of terror can be drawn back to a belief in religious or cultural superiority, somehow we need to look inside ourselves and see the terrible damage that is wrought as a consequence, and consider how we might address it. The belief in fictional creative beings is responsible for more misery, death, torture, and harm than anything else on this planet.


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## Bill M (11 January 2015)

^^^Good post galumay, isn't that that the truth?^^^


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## pixel (11 January 2015)

galumay said:


> Solutions to the predicament we find ourselves in will be difficult to implement, firstly there is a general lack of understanding of the factors that drive the extremism, a lack of if understanding that Western Civilisation initiated terrorism with the Christian Crusades, the first recorded instances of civilians being used as pawns in the theatre of religious warfare. We started this deadly game, and until we accept that fact and the impact it has on others then we are doomed to be victims of our history.
> 
> Secondly we, as Western 'Christian' nations have continued to wage terrorism at unprecedented levels, the carpet bombing of Dresden (civilians the specific target.), Hiroshima and Nagasaki, (the single greatest acts of terrorism ever), napalming of the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese, (terrorism on a new scale of depravity). The illegal invasion of Iraq, (now conceded by Western Governments.) All of these events add to the not unreasonable belief that "anything goes" in the name of your religion/culture/politics, regardless of the damage to innocents and civilians.
> 
> ...




+1, galumay
The only thing I would add is ... belief in religious, cultural, *or imperial* superiority.
The reason: Not all invasions and wars of aggression have their roots in religion or culture; religion and national pride are often used as a pretext to rally the troops. 
The problem is however, not many people, least of all politicians, are interested in historic truth because it could lead to the troops joining dots and drawing their own rational conclusions. Which makes it that much harder to lead them to the slaughter for the sake of greater corporate profits.


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## galumay (11 January 2015)

pixel said:


> +1, galumay
> The only thing I would add is ... belief in religious, cultural, *or imperial* superiority.
> \




Good point, well made.


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## Calliope (11 January 2015)

Bill M said:


> ^^^Good post galumay, isn't that that the truth?^^^




Which part of galumay's head-in-the-sand excuses for Islamic terrorism did you consider to be the truth? Not this bit surely?



> Unfortunately racism and xenophobia in countries like Australia actually play into the extremists hands, there are about 2 billion Moslims in the world, and most of them dont support the extremist loonies, but every time we respond with racism or xenophobia the numbers supporting the extremists will increase.
> 
> *The response of Australians to the seige in Martin Place, with the #ridewithme concept is the better way to disarm the exremists. (even thought the Martin Place siege was not terrorism anyway, just the act of a deranged criminal)*




To think that the "ridewithme" concept will "disarm the exremists" is utter nonsense. and yet you accept it as a truth.

He blames Western Christian cultures for setting a precedent for Islamic barbarity...no mention of the millions who died at the hands of the supreme terrorists Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Idi Amin etc. Does he blame Western Culture fot their barbarities too?


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## >Apocalypto< (11 January 2015)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11.
> 
> I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.
> 
> ...




No, peoples interpretation is evil not religion it's self.


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## galumay (11 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> To think that the "ridewithme" concept will "disarm the exremists" is utter nonsense. and yet you accept it as a truth.




I was suggesting it would be more effective than racism and xenophobia.



> He blames Western Christian cultures for setting a precedent for Islamic barbarity...no mention of the millions who died at the hands of the supreme terrorists Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Idi Amin etc. Does he blame Western Culture fot their barbarities too?




I make the point that 'we' started it, we can hardly be surprised that other cultures and religions have adopted it as a strategy. I agree there have been other acts of terror carried out by different religions and cultures (and imperialists), it doesnt help to understand what we face currently if we dismiss the role we have played in its genesis.

We have no grounds for moral superiority here.


----------



## Calliope (11 January 2015)

galumay said:


> I was suggesting it would be more effective than racism and xenophobia




In other words...useless.



> I make the point that 'we' started it, we can hardly be surprised that other cultures and religions have adopted it as a strategy. I agree there have been other acts of terror carried out by different religions and cultures (and imperialists), *it doesnt help to understand what we face currently if we dismiss the role we have played in its genesis*.




And what "genesis role" did "we" play in the barbarity of imperialist Genghis Khan who is reputed to have killed 40 million people? Did he adopt our Western Cultures "strategy"?



> We have no grounds for moral superiority here.




No.  You have assumed that for the Islamists.


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## Bintang (11 January 2015)

galumay said:


> …. it doesnt help to understand what we face currently if we dismiss the role we have played in its genesis.




What exactly are you trying to say with this? That we should flagellate ourselves for things that happened many generations ago?
That's pointless. We cannot change history. What we can do is not repeat the mistakes of history.
One of those mistakes is thinking that we can appease an intractable foe whose very objective is to drag us into conflict. The 'try-to-be-nice-to-them' approach will never work.


----------



## galumay (11 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> What exactly are you trying to say with this? That we should flagellate ourselves for things that happened many generations ago?




I dont claim to have the answers, all I know is that if we dont understand history then we are doomed to repeat it - hardly an original thought! 

I never said we should flagellate ourselves, I said we should inform ourselves with the understanding of history.

When 'we' pioneered terrorism its simplistic and indeed useless to decry the part all of humanity play in its use as a tool in warfare. 

Like I said, we have no moral high ground to stand on, so what can we do? 

No obvious answer, but I think it will take a paradigm shift in thinking to move humanity on from the previous course of history.


----------



## Calliope (11 January 2015)

galumay said:


> Like I said, we have no moral high ground to stand on, so what can we do?




High moral ground or not, we have to combat evil and that can't be done by making excuses for their atrocities and saying it is our fault, and insinuating that they are on a higher moral plane than we are. You speak for no one but yourself. If you wish to self-flagellate...go ahead.


----------



## orr (11 January 2015)

galumay said:


> Ultimately all acts of terror can be drawn back to a belief in religious or cultural superiority, t.




thanks for post galumay; at around the time you were typing it up I was re-watching the youtube of 1966 production 'The battle for Algiers'. that it is rated as one of the 50 best films ever made by those who know bears thinking about... to wit; Too few people seem to want to reflect on the conclusions of the CIA to  9/11 commission; 'BLOWBACK'. 

You've touched on a number of other points, on one, If I may suggest, If there is anything that can be done at an induvidual level, it is; to the best of your ability to limit the excesses and criminal acts that are perpitrated in your name; AWB wheat, Saddams WMD, Guantanimo, our  current gulags, stolen wages of Aboriginals, DFA/ Downer' Timor Leste Oil  rip off( and continue'n'cntinue .....)   ........... much too much to think about?...... Unfortunatly an all to important element of the way the games played. So' best to expect some 'blowback'.

(my spell check on the fritz)


----------



## Julia (11 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> What exactly are you trying to say with this? That we should flagellate ourselves for things that happened many generations ago?
> That's pointless. We cannot change history. What we can do is not repeat the mistakes of history.
> One of those mistakes is thinking that we can appease an intractable foe whose very objective is to drag us into conflict. The 'try-to-be-nice-to-them' approach will never work.




+1.
So, galumay,  more of the equivalent of the many years we have spent wringing our collective hands in guilt at treatment of aborigines rather than accepting what needs to be addressed now.   Where will that get us?
How has the insistence of the ongoing wearing of guilt by the Left with respect to indigenous people actually improved their situation?  It hasn't, not one iota.

What has helped is Noel Pearson's insistence that his people take responsibility for their own outcomes, decline to spend the rest of their lives on welfare, and create a future for themselves with the help of the rest of the population.  His Cape York program has been very successful, and even the Left are forced to acknowledge his statesmanship and wisdom.

The parallels with the terror situation are clear imo.  Thinking that such simplistic stuff as "Ill Ride with You" is going to sort it out is naive in the extreme.

I don't think many would disagree about the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq being irrational and provocative, ensuring more instability in the area than would have been the case even under the continued oppression of Saddam.  There is much to be said for not interfering in cultures about which we have minimal understanding.

However, when 'our' very way of life is under threat, it seems unlikely to me that a passive, accepting acquiesence will ensure our stable future.  You are not dealing with rational, co-operative people here, rather  those driven by an insane adherence to an imaginary God.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 January 2015)

> You are not dealing with rational, co-operative people here, rather those driven by an insane adherence to an imaginary God.




The insanity is not believing in a God, but thinking they know what It wants of them. 

Different tribes have made up stories of what God wants to suit themselves, ie "their" God always works for his chosen people, according to the *men* who wrote the scriptures, and other tribes are less favoured by this particular version of God. So we have a Christian god, a Jewish god, a Muslim god etc.

That idea really is the source of all the conflict. If there is a God then all of mankind is his creation, so why should one tribe get all the attention ? The sadness of religion is that people who believe in God can't even understand this simple logic. It's all about their tribe, because theirs is the only "true" God, their tribal leaders said so.

Incredibly stupid.


----------



## Tisme (12 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The insanity is not believing in a God, but thinking they know what It wants of them.
> 
> ....Incredibly stupid.




Luckily for us Nostradamus is there for the bookies:

_8 Q70

He will enter, wicked, unpleasant, infamous, 
Tyrannizing over Mesopotamia [Iraq]
All friends made by the adulterous lady,
The land dreadful and black of aspect._

Filling in the gaps:

ISIS will enter, wicked, unpleasant, infamous, tyrannizing over Mesopotamia (Iraq). All friends made by the adulterous lady [Liberty]! Rendering Iraq a land dreadful and black of aspect. To those of the black flags of ISIS, to the Crusaders’ black-hooded enemies, it is their law that shall hold. It shall be victorious against those of the double-crossing cross bearers.

http://www.hogueprophecy.com/2014/0...uts-obama-on-isis-robin-williams-in-memoriam/


----------



## Tisme (13 January 2015)

> Chinese authorities have banned women in Urumqi, the capital city of Xinjiang—an autonomous western region where Muslims account for almost half of the population—from wearing burqas in public, according to a brief article on a government-run website, Tianshan News. Local legislators for Urumqi proposed the ban in December, and now the regional legislature has approved it.



.......


http://qz.com/324805/china-has-just-banned-the-burqa-in-its-biggest-muslim-city/



> China is in the midst of a crackdown on what it describes as "terrorism driven by religious extremism". The campaign is focused on the western province of Xinjiang, home to China's Uighur ethnic minority who are predominantly Muslim.
> 
> The government believes religion breeds terror and has been trying to control religious expression in the region by imposing rules on the Uighur community. Critics say it is exaggerating the terror problem.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-30722268


----------



## Tisme (14 January 2015)

*Gongs For Heros of Martin Place Seige*

It seems Rev Fred Nile objects to bravery awards for the blokes who ran from the cafÃ©, leaving the weaker sex behind (before you saddle up the high horses, I'm paraphrasing for effect).

Having thought about it, I reckon it would take a lot to overcome the fear of survival and run for a door that increases the odds of a direct hit from a madman's shotgun. I'm not sure about the notion we should sacrifice our safety in favour of women, although I confess I probably would.  

It's a conundrum.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> *Gongs For Heros of Martin Place Seige*
> 
> It seems Rev Fred Nile objects to bravery awards for the blokes who ran from the cafÃ©, leaving the weaker sex behind (before you saddle up the high horses, I'm paraphrasing for effect).
> 
> ...




We can't really say what we would do under circumstances we have not be subjected to.

Blind rationalisation says run for it when you can, we can then at least give information to the police regarding what's going on inside. However chivalry could trump logic at the time, who knows ?


----------



## dutchie (15 January 2015)

Is it ever....

The horrific aftermath of Boko Haram massacre on Nigerian villages: Before and after satellite images lay bare destruction caused by militants in attack that killed 2,500 people

    Infra-red satellite images show destruction of 'densely populated' towns
*One witness says terrorists shot and killed a woman who was in labour* 
    Estimated 2,500 people killed, and more than 3,700 structures were razed
    Extremist group, Boko Haram, decimated towns of Baga and Doron Baga
    One of the towns 'nearly wiped off the map', says Amnesty International 
    Survivors describe fleeing over dead bodies of people 'killed like insects' 


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...attack-killed-2-500-people.html#ixzz3Ot2SXLVy
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## Calliope (16 January 2015)

dutchie said:


> Is it ever....
> 
> The horrific aftermath of Boko Haram massacre on Nigerian villages: Before and after satellite images lay bare destruction caused by militants in attack that killed 2,500 people
> 
> ...




The chattering class keep rabbiting agout the moderate Islamists and how we should be nice to them. What are the 'moderate" Islamists doing to rein in Boko Haram? Nothing.


----------



## Tisme (16 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> The chattering class keep rabbiting agout the moderate Islamists and how we should be nice to them. What are the 'moderate" Islamists doing to rein in Boko Haram? Nothing.




Well of course there is no such thing as moderate Islam, because Islam commands total obedience to the "suras" which are a journey of fairly benign in(doctrines) that lead the reader onward to bloodlust towards the end (if you can workout the beginning and the end). 

Each sura overrides the previous where ambiguity exists, this abrogation ( al-naskh wa al-mansukh) is supposedly because God kept changing his mood to suit the prevailing circumstances of Muhammad's journey through life's trials and tribulations .....  through God's mouthpiece and resident trumpeter Gabriel of course. The big problem is the Quran suras are not time stamped over the twenty year span, but sorted by size.

Without knowing what the chronological order really is, it's assumed Muhammad became increasingly bloodthirsty as his military might increased (and obviously God's frustration with the pace of sales of his rebadged, rejigged Jew and Christian product for the Arab market). Apparently there is no problem for true believers in weeding out the hierarchy of Muslim needs (overriding and defunct suras), because the true believers are Arab and Arabs have a special God codec gene built into them.

So it seems the "moderate" Islamists is a falsehood, because true Islamists are only Arab and as Arabs they have congenital oneness with God who managed 20 years of his busy schedule to give an instructional, but hasn't been since .. presumably still handing out messianic messages to Gabriel for delivery to prophets on other planets (that he hopefully took more than a week to make after the first failure).


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> So it seems the "moderate" Islamists is a falsehood, because true Islamists are only Arab and as Arabs they have congenital oneness with God who managed 20 years of his busy schedule to give an instructional, but hasn't been since .. presumably still handing out messianic messages to Gabriel for delivery to prophets on other planets (that he hopefully took more than a week to make after the first failure).




+1 
ROTFL


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

I think there may be some tongue in cheek in Tisme's dissertation.

So what do we make of Boko Haram (African not Arab), Jema'ah Islamiyah (Indonesian not Arab), and all the other Muslim offshoots in Africa and Eastern Europe ?

Islamic terrorism seems a multi headed hydra, with local dialects springing up to suit local conditions and barmy clerics in the area.


----------



## Calliope (16 January 2015)

There is no doubt that the so-called moderate muslims do support offensive jihad.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> There is no doubt that the so-called moderate muslims do support offensive jihad.




And your evidences is, a cartoon ?

Yeah right.


----------



## chiff (16 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> There is no doubt that the so-called moderate muslims do support offensive jihad.




I am in Malaysia at the moment...I think that your cartoon is,what you say,putting it nicely,crap.


----------



## Calliope (16 January 2015)

Obviously Cliff and Rumpy support the concept of "moderate' Islamists. I would like to see *your* evidence Rumpy, in support of this concept, as it applies in Australia and Europe. I notice you are always asking others for evidence, but very light  on supplyig any yourself. Now's your chance.

Perhaps you can refute this.for starters. 

http://counterjihadreport.com/2013/...wi-muslim-moderates-endorse-aggressive-jihad/


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

chiff said:


> I am in Malaysia at the moment...I think that your cartoon is,what you say,putting it nicely,crap.




What is the punishment for apostasy in Muslim countries? I know it varies.
How about Malaysia?


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Obviously Cliff and Rumpy support the concept of "moderate' Islamists. I would like to see *your* evidence Rumpy, in support of this concept, as it applies in Australia and Europe. I notice you are always asking others for evidence, but very light  on supplyig any yourself. Now's your chance.
> 
> Perhaps you can refute this.for starters.
> 
> http://counterjihadreport.com/2013/...wi-muslim-moderates-endorse-aggressive-jihad/




If all Muslims supported jihad, they would be all out there doing it.

 Instead of one lone flakey dude holding up a coffee shop we would have daily explosions on the transport system, car bombs at Parliament house, anything else you like to think of. There would be mass migrations of Muslims to Syria to help IS. As it is there is less than a hundred. The rest aren't stupid enough to risk their lives for religion.

So we have a choice, to get people onside or inter them all in some camp in the Simpson desert, and given your whinging about the cost of detention centres now, would you be prepared to pay for it ?

Given that, I support not enriching the subversive element by allowing more Muslims into the country, and hope that the younger generations of Muslims will have the jihad knocked out of them by our laid back Aussie irreverence.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So we have a choice, to get people onside or inter them all in some camp in the Simpson desert, and given your whinging about the cost of detention centres now, would you be prepared to pay for it ?
> 
> Given that, I support not enriching the subversive element by allowing more Muslims into the country, and hope that the younger generations of Muslims will have the jihad knocked out of them by our laid back Aussie irreverence.




We could coerce all food manufacturers to pay for *non*-halal certification of their products and use the money to fund the internment camps.


----------



## Calliope (16 January 2015)

*all aboutRe: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?*

I am still waiting for your evidence Rumpy on the attitude on what "moderate" Islamists views are on Muslims converting to Christianity (apostacy) and how it varies from the radicals. That's what the cartoon was all about. I don't think your "ride with me" nonsense will alter their views on this one. I may be wrong...perhaps you have counter evidence.



> and given your whinging about the cost of detention centres




Evidence or examples please.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

*Re: all aboutRe: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?*



Calliope said:


> I am still waiting for your evidence Rumpy on the attitude on what "moderate" Islamists views are on Muslims converting to Christianity (apostacy) and how it varies from the radicals. That's what the cartoon was all about. I don't think your "ride with me" nonsense will alter their views on this one. I may be wrong...perhaps you have counter evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence or examples please.




I doubt if its a case for a lot of people of converting to another religion, but many people who are brought up in a Christian church drift out of it naturally, outgrowing the doctrines. I dare say the same applies to Muslims.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> There is no doubt that the so-called moderate muslims do support offensive jihad.






chiff said:


> I am in Malaysia at the moment...I think that your cartoon is,what you say,putting it nicely,crap.






Bintang said:


> What is the punishment for apostasy in Muslim countries? I know it varies.
> How about Malaysia?




There seems to be a slow-rush to answer this question so I will make my own  attempt.
In Saudi Arabia (the cradle of Islam) amongst other places the punishment is death.



So are the Saudis radical or moderate muslims?


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> There seems to be a slow-rush to answer this question so I will make my own  attempt.
> In Saudi Arabia (the cradle of Islam) amongst other places the punishment is death.
> View attachment 61156
> 
> ...




The Saudis are radicals.

Next question ?


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

*Re: all aboutRe: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?*



Calliope said:


> I am still waiting for your evidence Rumpy on the attitude on what "moderate" Islamists views are on Muslims converting to Christianity (apostacy) and how it varies from the radicals. That's what the cartoon was all about. I don't think your "ride with me" nonsense will alter their views on this one. I may be wrong...perhaps you have counter evidence.
> Evidence or examples please.






SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if its a case for a lot of people of converting to another religion, but many people who are brought up in a Christian church drift out of it naturally, outgrowing the doctrines. I dare say the same applies to Muslims.




It's not just about converting to Christianity. It is also a crime in many muslim countries to abandon Islam and become atheist.


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> There seems to be a slow-rush to answer this question so I will make my own  attempt.
> In Saudi Arabia (the cradle of Islam) amongst other places the punishment is death.
> View attachment 61156
> 
> ...




Our leadership seems OK with them though.














Maybe that's only for the cameras. Behind closed doors those bad Saudi Royals probably got an earful.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The Saudis are radicals.
> 
> Next question ?




Who are the moderates?


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Our leadership seems OK with them though.




There might be a reason for that. Have you ever heard of something called 'oil'?


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> There might be a reason for that. Have you ever heard of something called 'oil'?




Outrageous! 

We compromise our values, our beliefs in human rights and democracy and get in bed with... with Islamic dictators? For oil?


Here's a short article on a Muslim who helped save the Jewish shoppers in Paris:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2015/Jan-16/284286-french-nationality-given-to-malian-deli-attack-hero.ashx



> PARIS: A Malian Muslim who hid shoppers from an Islamist gunman during an attack on a Jewish supermarket in Paris will be given French nationality, the Interior Ministry said Thursday.
> 
> After the gunman had already killed people during a hostage taking in the store Friday, 24-year old shop attendant Lassana Bathily hid several people in the store’s freezer, turned off the light and told them to stay calm.
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Who are the moderates?




The Indonesian government executed the Bali bombers.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The Indonesian government executed the Bali bombers.




Ah good, so now we know that all Indonesian muslims are moderates.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Here's a short article on a Muslim who helped save the Jewish shoppers in Paris:




Having helped save kafirs he is no longer a muslim.

(PS: Funny how when I write the word kafir nothing happens but if I try to include the N-word in a post it gets censored. I guess some racial slurs are more equal than others)


----------



## Tisme (16 January 2015)

Just so I don't get caught up in the hate group. I have to defend the wonderful peoples of Malaysia no matter which religion they subscribe to (which they are free to ply along family lines). I feel safe there and it's one of my favourite destinations.

I have yet to find a country where the locals don't complain mostly about the same stuff: leadership, lack of progress, taxation and the biggest of all  = bureaucracy.

I can't imagine living in a country that enforces a religion, but I can imagine the rage that could arise at being trapped in it.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Ah good, so now we know that all Indonesian muslims are moderates.




You can't make assumptions about ALL anything.

ALL Catholics are not pedophiles because a few of them are

ALL Muslims are not terrorists because a few of them are.

Certainly you have to be able to sort out which is which. I cant think of a good way to do this, can you ?


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> Just so I don't get caught up in the hate group. I have to defend the wonderful peoples of Malaysia no matter which religion they subscribe to (which they are free to ply along family lines). I feel safe there and it's one of my favourite destinations.
> 
> I have yet to find a country where the locals don't complain mostly about the same stuff: leadership, lack of progress, taxation and the biggest of all  = bureaucracy.
> 
> I can't imagine living in a country that enforces a religion, but I can imagine the rage that could arise at being trapped in it.




Yes, I also love Malaysia but the muslim majority in that country is slender - I think barely 51%.
Indonesia on the other hand is more like 90% or higher which might explain some of this:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/15/sufi-muslims-feel-heat-indonesia-s-rising-intolerance

_"Indonesian government officials and security forces have often facilitated harassment and intimidation of religious minorities by militant Islamist groups or stood by while militants violently attacked religious minority communities. Such actions are in part made possible by discriminatory laws and regulations, including a blasphemy law that officially recognizes only six religions, and house of worship decrees that give local majority populations significant leverage over religious minority communities.

Indonesian government institutions have also played a role in the violation of the rights and freedoms of the country’s religious minorities. Those institutions, which include the Ministry of Religious Affairs, the Coordinating Board for Monitoring Mystical Beliefs in Society (Bakor Pakem) under the Attorney General’s Office, and the semi-official MUI, have eroded religious freedom by issuing decrees and fatwas against members of religious minorities and using their position of authority to press for the prosecution of “blasphemers.”
_


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> You can't make assumptions about ALL anything.
> 
> ALL Catholics are not pedophiles because a few of them are
> 
> ...




There is an important difference though. To the best of my knowledge the Catholic religion does not have as the basis of its doctrine an instruction manual on paedophilia.

Muslims on the other hand have a comprehensive instruction manual on violence and terrorism which is the basis of Islam.
So in an attempt to answer your last question I would say:  we cannot judge them by their cover but we can certainly judge them by what's inside the book.


----------



## Boggo (16 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> ALL Muslims are not terrorists because a few of them are.
> 
> Certainly you have to be able to sort out which is which. I cant think of a good way to do this, can you ?




This guy may have the answer

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ck-bags-f-live-TV.html?ito=video_player_click


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Having helped save kafirs he is no longer a muslim.
> 
> (PS: Funny how when I write the word kafir nothing happens but if I try to include the N-word in a post it gets censored. I guess some racial slurs are more equal than others)




haha... so a good Muslim is a former Muslim?

I supposed that's better than "a good Muslim is a dead Muslim" or something along that line.


Don't take the auto-censor too negatively... it's a program where the developer put in an array of offensive English words and programmed it to remove/replace them when detected. Maybe contact Joe to add Kafir or whatever else you find offensive.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> haha... so a good Muslim is a former Muslim?
> 
> I supposed that's better than "a good Muslim is a dead Muslim" or something along that line.
> 
> ...




No it's not necessary to bother Joe about this.
Yes I find it offensive that muslims are able to call us kafirs without copping any criticism from the PC brigade but it is more the disrespect, arrogance and hypocrisy underlying its use rather than the word itself. In every other respect I prefer freedom of speech not to be diminished by the constraints of political correctness.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> haha... so a good Muslim is a former Muslim?
> 
> I supposed that's better than "a good Muslim is a dead Muslim" or something along that line.




I guess this remark is partly mirth but unfortunately I think there are many now dead muslims who would fit the category to which you are referring.
And the young muslim man who helped the jewish shoppers in Paris is probably on a hit list by now.


----------



## Julia (16 January 2015)

Boggo said:


> This guy may have the answer




Interesting, Boggo, thank you.

One of the comments following the video observes that it's OK for this person to tell them to "**** off" if they don't assimilate, only because he himself is a Muslim, the suggestion being that a non-Muslim would meet with a chorus of condemnation.  Probably right.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

Boggo said:


> This guy may have the answer
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ck-bags-f-live-TV.html?ito=video_player_click




Sounds like a good man, and hopefully he won' be targetted by the loonies.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

Julia said:


> Interesting, Boggo, thank you.
> 
> One of the comments following the video observes that it's OK for this person to tell them to "**** off" if they don't assimilate, only because he himself is a Muslim, the suggestion being that a non-Muslim would meet with a chorus of condemnation.  Probably right.




I sense a similar double standard lurking in this forum.


----------



## basilio (16 January 2015)

> In every other respect I prefer freedom of speech not to be diminished by the constraints of political correctness.



 Bintang

How about simply mutual respect, courtesy, good manners or some other "goody two shoes" nicety?

It is really easy to be unthinking, vicious, spiteful, wrong or  deceitful. (This is *NOT* having a go at you Bintang ) 

In my view Internet forums have enabled  people to  repeatedly make simplistic, thoughtless and often nasty comments. We are anonymous keyboard warriors.  Lets create mayhem!!

On top of that our media culture revels in "simplistic, thoughtless and often nasty comments". Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt take a bow. And these are some of the most well paid highest rating performers.  And their prize is money and recognition and ratings. (All very useful to sell more tat to people who already have a life full of the stuff)

A few pages ago I tried to be take an extreme and satirical view of dealing with the trashing of Islamic culture and beliefs. Is it possible Muslims are just normal people? Or does half this group privately think they are one step away from hacket wielding jihidists?  The sad part is that irony seems to be largely lost on this forum and ignorance and lack of respect dominate far too many exchanges. 

Just too xxxxxing sad.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Bintang
> 
> How about simply mutual respect, courtesy, good manners or some other "goody two shoes" nicety?
> 
> It is really easy to be unthinking, vicious, spiteful, wrong or  deceitful.




Yes, wonderful if it could be practiced by everyone concerned and without any double standards.
And if certain words * are* used in a vicious and spiteful context the whole post deserves to be expunged.


----------



## Bintang (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Is it possible Muslims are just normal people? Or does half this group privately think they are one step away from hacket wielding jihidists?  The sad part is that irony seems to be largely lost on this forum and ignorance and lack of respect dominate far too many exchanges.




Yes, that is possible.  But what is not possible imo is for Islam to be a normal religion. In fact I don't consider it a religion.  It is an ideological and a political system of control. I know other people disagree with me on this point and they are free to do so.


----------



## Julia (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> How about simply mutual respect, courtesy, good manners or some other "goody two shoes" nicety?
> 
> It is really easy to be unthinking, vicious, spiteful, wrong or  deceitful. (
> 
> ...



Agree 100%, basilio.   I worry also that the huge response to the Paris killings, including the symbolic joining together of linked arms of many world leaders, has unintentionally provided some sort of 'open season' on expressing hatred, giving implied licence to many who would have previously held their collective tongues, to unleash anger and insults.

Many of the posts on social media show an alarming level of vicious abuse, often a sort of pack mentality with multiple posters falling into the vituperative bullying.
Surely those same people would not behave like that in a face to face situation?

Occasionally I've heard bits of Alan Jones and Ray Hadley on morning radio and just cannot understand how they attract the audiences they apparently do.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Yes, that is possible.  But what is not possible imo is for Islam to be a normal religion. In fact I don't consider it a religion.  It is an ideological and a political system of control. I know other people disagree with me on this point and they are free to do so.




I think I agree with you on the general concept behind Islam. It contains many passages that if followed turn it into a violent and untrustworthy religion. 

All religions are a mechanism for control of the masses. What I don't accept is that all people who say they belong to a certain religion necessarily follow that religion to the letter. eg, the snake example from Christianity. Some loonies literally believe that God will save themselves from snakebite, but most regard that as a silly archaic example to be taken allegorically.

Many religions are inherited and provide a club to belong to where their friends and relatives are. I think their degree of devoutness is variable, some are fundamentalists, others take it with a grain of salt. Same with any other religion.


----------



## Calliope (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Bintang
> 
> How about simply mutual respect, courtesy, good manners or some other "goody two shoes" nicety?
> 
> ...




Okay bas, you have made your point that you respect Islamists, but I think you could have done this without accusing those with opposing views of being "unthinking, vicious, spiteful, wrong or  deceitful" or making " simplistic, thoughtless and often nasty comments". You have made similar criticisms about those who oppose your views on Global Warming.

You are too fond of proseletising. Chill out.


----------



## cynic (16 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Okay bas, you have made your point that you respect Islamists,...



Did basilio actually make any specific comment to this effect?



> ...but I think you could have done this without accusing those with opposing views of being "unthinking, vicious, spiteful, wrong or  deceitful" or making " simplistic, thoughtless and often nasty comments".




I didn't happen to read such implications in the particular post to which you refer. I do grant that on occasions some posters do indeed make similar criticisms about their opponents.



> ...You have made similar criticisms about those who oppose your views on Global Warming...




Could this observation have influenced the context through which you've interpreted basilio's recent post?!


----------



## Boggo (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Bintang
> 
> *How about simply mutual respect, courtesy, good manners or some other "goody two shoes" nicety?*
> 
> ...




Your theory is great bas, the reality is a bit different.

Maybe the people you are taking offence to are judging these groups by how they treat others in their countries while they demand respect elsewhere.

You don't get the "mutual respect" automatically, you have to earn it and to do that you (they) need to demonstrate that it is deserved. 
_
(the pic below is not an attack on any poster or group, more a statement of fact)_


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## bellenuit (16 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> No it's not necessary to bother Joe about this.
> Yes I find it offensive that muslims are able to call us kafirs without copping any criticism from the PC brigade but it is more the disrespect, arrogance and hypocrisy underlying its use rather than the word itself. In every other respect I prefer freedom of speech not to be diminished by the constraints of political correctness.




In the same theme, a great letter from a member of the Baha'i Faith.

_Dear offended religious people,

Please stop the hypocrisy. The right to offend is not exclusively yours.

If you know the holy scriptures of the religions that you uphold so dearly, you already know how offensive parts of them are to people.

Yet, some of you still continue to publish them. Some of you buy those publications and read them. Some of you recite them to your children. Some of you force your children to uphold them as sacred and act upon them as far as they can. And all of you regard those scriptures beyond questioning and criticism, otherwise why would you feel offended when one did so?

If you know the holy figures of the religions that you uphold so dearly, you probably know of a few things they have done that are offensive to people.

Yet, some of you consider them as the paragons of how one should live their earthly life, and all of you regard desecration of those figures an offense to the sacredness of your religion.

Your religions have not only deeply offended women, homosexuals, and non-believers, but have also been a source of physical pain and agony for them by the actions of those followers who have been literally following their instructions, throughout centuries and millennia.

And yet, the right of these people to offend you back by questioning, criticizing, and mocking the religious concepts that you uphold so dearly has been breached for most of the history, only granted to them for a couple of decades or centuries in some parts of the world, now, and not granted to them in so many other parts, yet.

Despite such historical privilege, you still whine when somebody starts to use their right to mock your religion or desecrate its figures. Worse than that, when a tragedy happens because some of your fellow offended religious people have gone nuts and killed a group of blasphemers, some of you distort a conversation that should be about the right to blasphemy, to a conversation about your offended feelings at the blasphemy that the blasphemers were killed for. KILLED FOR…

Take a moment and think about it.

If a group of atheist homosexual women, deeply agonized and in pain bullied by expression of your religious beliefs for decades, had gone nuts and had exploded a few mosques and churches and other religious centers for “incitement of hatred and prejudice” against them, and had killed a dozen of hate preaching Imams, how would feel if all the world would turn to you when you were moaning your loss, by changing the conversation to be about how offended their feelings would get the sermons were given at those centers? How would you feel if those religious centers were not even actually preaching such hate?

Do you see how hypocritical it is?

So this is what I am gonna do: Next time you mention something about empathy, and how it requires that people don’t offend each other, I ask you for empathy first. I ask you to stop offending people by giving up your support for religions that have such offensive concepts in their scriptures, or the actions of their holy figures as recorded by history. I ask you to show your empathy for your fellow human beings by leaving your religion. Until you haven’t shown enough empathy not to offend others, please don’t ask others to show that to you.

Please stop the hypocrisy. The right to offend is not exclusively yours. The empathy not to be offensive is not exclusively other people’s responsibility, either.

Disclaimer:
This is only intended for those religious people who feel offended at blasphemy, and took the CH events to express their feelings. I understand there are many religious people like myself, who can take a witty joke about their religion with a smile, and face a serious criticism of it by a deep thought._

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2015/01/guest-post-dear-offended-religious-people/


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## Calliope (16 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> In the same theme, a great letter from a member of the Baha'i Faith.




A great blog? As an atheist I consider the Baha'i Faith to be a load of cobblers



> The BahÃ¡'Ã­ Faith (Arabic: الدّين البهائي‎ Ad-Dīn al-Bahā'ī) /bəˈhaɪ/[1]) is a monotheistic religion which emphasizes the spiritual unity of all humankind.[2] Three core principles establish a basis for BahÃ¡'Ã­ teachings and doctrine: the unity of God, that there is only one God who is the source of all creation; the unity of religion, that all major religions have the same spiritual source and come from the same God; and the unity of humanity, that all humans have been created equal and that diversity of race and culture are seen as worthy of appreciation and acceptance.[3] According to the BahÃ¡'Ã­ Faith's teachings, the human purpose is to learn to know and to love God through such methods as prayer, reflection and being of service to humanity.



 Wiki


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## bellenuit (16 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> A great blog? As an atheist I consider the Baha'i Faith to be a load of cobblers
> 
> Wiki




Maybe. But I didn't say the blog was great. I said the letter was great. I consider all religions a load of cobblers, but that doesn't mean that everything written by their followers is crap.


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## basilio (16 January 2015)

I have a problem with the basic question of this thread -  "Is Islam inherently evil ?"

 It  already presupposes that we should ask that question and seriously entertain the possibility that it is "inherantly evil". Consider for example if we wanted to replace the word  "Islam" with

"Catholicism,"  "Judism," "Scientology," "Socialism" "Capitalism" "Atheism" "Germany"  "Iran"  "USA"

Wouldn't it be strange or unnecessarily aggressive to begin such a conversation with any of those replacement entities?

I also have a problem with peoples understanding of Islam (or in fact any religion/ creed) . In all fairness even experts in any field would  be circumspect about professing an understanding of the relgion. There are simply too many  interpretations and variations to pull up a paragraph and damn the religion on that basis. 

Finally in the case of Islam I have no confidence in the  presentation of various "facts" about it by most  keyboard warriors. I have seen so many cherry picked , distorted and just plain wrong statements made by people who sole intention is to  trash Islam.  (And I'm absolutely sure I could find a similar swag of quotes to trash Christianity, Judaism, and a score of other belief systems.

There is no doubt a small number of people have a real, bitter anger against The West. They certainty want to  create some havoc. 

But do we really want to blacken 1.2 billion people on the basis of a small group? And is there any particular reason why these people might feel so aggrieved ? 

Thoughts ?


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## SirRumpole (16 January 2015)

> But do we really want to blacken 1.2 billion people on the basis of a small group? And is there any particular reason why these people might feel so aggrieved ?
> 
> Thoughts ?




The problem as I see it is the multifarious interpretations that can be put on the Koran by people who want to use it for their own benefit, ie increase their own power.

The evidence is, through acts of terrorism and the activities of IS, that Islamic religious fundamentalism can be easily turned to violence in the minds and actions of the weak and easily led. (And there are many of those). So the ideology is the problem.

To use an analogy, if the disease is extremism, although most Muslims are not infected, by passing the need for allegience to the Koran on to their successive generations they are carriers of the disease. 

The disease probably can't be completely eradicated unless Islam itself can be destroyed. Considering the number of adherents in the world, that is unlikely. Maybe it can be contained by identifying and isolating the radical elements, and sadly (or not) by extermination of the violent jihadists in action in places like Syria and elsewhere.

Also, secular countries like Australia can stop pandering to religion in general by not providing any special amenities for them, like religious chaplains or prayer rooms or the like, and keeping the Muslim population here to a minimum.

It's going to be a long battle imo, but experience has shown that secular society and Islam do not mix, as Islam believes that it is, or should be  the government, not that it is subservient to government and the elected representatives of a secular society.

We need to keep impressing, gently but firmly that religion in general, while being tolerated, does not tell the rest of us what to do.


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## bellenuit (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> I have a problem with the basic question of this thread -  "Is Islam inherently evil ?"
> 
> It  already presupposes that we should ask that question and seriously entertain the possibility that it is "inherantly evil".




Yes, we should certainly entertain that possibility. Just as we should entertain the possibility that Mein Kampf is inherently evil or any other work that is strongly influential and leads some followers to commit terrible acts. 



> Consider for example if we wanted to replace the word  "Islam" with
> 
> "Catholicism,"  "Judism," "Scientology," "Socialism" "Capitalism" "Atheism" "Germany"  "Iran"  "USA"
> 
> Wouldn't it be strange or unnecessarily aggressive to begin such a conversation with any of those replacement entities?




No it wouldn't if the entity in question is the assumed cause of much misery. It may be a valid question worth discussing. 



> I also have a problem with peoples understanding of Islam (or in fact any religion/ creed) . In all fairness even experts in any field would  be circumspect about professing an understanding of the relgion. There are simply too many  interpretations and variations to pull up a paragraph and damn the religion on that basis.




The Bible and the Quran were not written on the basis that they would be interpreted by just scholars and experts. They were supposedly the written word of God and meant to be followed by all the faithful. There are passages in both books (and the Hadith) that are beyond doubt in their meaning, The interpretations that we hear usually involve the complete ignoring of embarrassing passages as it doesn't fit in with the particular face of the religion that certain groups try to portray. 



> Finally in the case of Islam I have no confidence in the  presentation of various "facts" about it by most  keyboard warriors. I have seen so many cherry picked , distorted and just plain wrong statements made by people who sole intention is to  trash Islam.  (And I'm absolutely sure I could find a similar swag of quotes to trash Christianity, Judaism, and a score of other belief systems.




Islam is thrashed by most atheists not by stating falsehoods about the Quran, but by actually quoting directly from it. Many atheists regard a thorough reading of the Bible as the basis for their rejection of Christianity. 



> There is no doubt a small number of people have a real, bitter anger against The West. They certainty want to  create some havoc.




The main victims of Islam are Muslims, not the West. The complete lack of respect for human rights in many Islamic countries bear testimony to this. Death for apostasy and for homosexuality. Women denied basic rights, such as an equal hearing in civil and criminal trials. The list is endless and if you are not aware of them at this stage in your life you must have your head in the sand. 



> But do we really want to blacken 1.2 billion people on the basis of a small group?




Again and again we hear this same diversion. Nobody is accusing all Muslims of being extremists or bad, so why keep using that straw argument. And the question is not whether Muslims are evil, but whether Islam is evil. Even if every Muslim in the world was a moderate who fully respects the rights of others (including other Muslims), it would not mean that Islam is not evil. One is the underlying philosophy, the other the followers.


----------



## luutzu (16 January 2015)




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## Julia (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> How about simply mutual respect, courtesy, good manners or some other "goody two shoes" nicety?
> 
> It is really easy to be unthinking, vicious, spiteful, wrong or  deceitful.
> In my view Internet forums have enabled  people to  repeatedly make simplistic, thoughtless and often nasty comments. We are anonymous keyboard warriors.  Lets create mayhem!!
> ...






Julia said:


> Agree 100%, basilio.   I worry also that the huge response to the Paris killings, including the symbolic joining together of linked arms of many world leaders, has unintentionally provided some sort of 'open season' on expressing hatred, giving implied licence to many who would have previously held their collective tongues, to unleash anger and insults.
> 
> Many of the posts on social media show an alarming level of vicious abuse, often a sort of pack mentality with multiple posters falling into the vituperative bullying.
> Surely those same people would not behave like that in a face to face situation?
> ...



I seem to be the only respondent who has taken basilio's comments as general, rather than specifically relating to criticism of Islam.  My post was as a result of that assumption and did not imply any criticism of anyone finding fault with behaviour of Islamists.  Probably I should have considered more the thread title and basilio should have been more clear about whether he was focusing on criticism of Islam or general behaviour on the internet.


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## basilio (16 January 2015)

Just for interest I  googled  "Is Islam inherantly evil".  

What a surprise...Pages and pages of discussions on just that topic. Seems that every (non-muslim...) and his dog wants to start a discussion with this premise.

I don't want to try and discuss each comment in detail.  As I said I believe quite strongly that the portrayal of Islam as inherently evil by quotation of the Quran is just a series  of simplistic or willfully ignorant actions.  

*It is dead simple to trash a religion by picking words and phrases out of context both linguistically and historically. * For anyone who cares to read just what the Quran says and what was meant I'll post the reference. 

I agree there are some ugly Islamic states which treat women particularly badly. Saudi Arabia springs to mind.  There are others as well. In these cases it is a fundamentalist approach to Islam that is the issue. Fundamentalist Jews, Christians whatever will have similar rigid  belief systems that they want to impose on the rest of the community.  And it will cause grief.

I found a particularly good site that explains what Islam is about. Perhaps it's worth checking out if people are going to discuss this topic with any respect ?



> *Top Five Misquotations Of The Qur’an*
> 
> by Dr. M. Nazir Khan | Jan 1, 2015 | Guidance | 0 comments
> 
> ...



http://spiritualperception.org/top-five-misquotations-of-the-quran/




> *Islam and Non-Muslims*
> 
> by Dr. M. Nazir Khan | Jan 12, 2015 | Society, Values | 0 comments
> 
> ...




http://spiritualperception.org/islam-and-non-muslims/


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## IFocus (16 January 2015)

For anyone with an open mind this is a good read by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar from Mauldin (yes, the same gentleman who scored the most points in NBA history)

Its in relation to the France murders.




http://time.com/3662152/kareem-abdu...bdo-terrorist-attacks-are-not-about-religion/


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## Julia (16 January 2015)

From "The Australian" today:


> West Australian academic Anne Aly, who founded the group People Against Violent Extremism, which relies largely on volunteers, said the government had missed a vital opportunity to help community leaders deal with scores of known extremists whose passports were cancelled.
> 
> “I think the process is taking too long,” Dr Aly said.
> 
> ...



Why is it that the Muslim community is demanding taxpayer funded government programs to prevent the bad behaviour of their young people?

How is the government supposed to prevent these people from accepting the urgings to them from mosques or the internet which supposedly prompt them to want to fight for ISIS et al?

Isn't it reasonable to expect Muslim leaders, those so called moderate people, to take some responsibility for managing their own community?


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## Calliope (16 January 2015)

basilio said:


> As I said I believe quite strongly that the portrayal of Islam as inherently evil by quotation of the Quran is just a series  of simplistic or willfully ignorant actions.
> 
> *It is dead simple to trash a religion by picking words and phrases out of context both linguistically and historically. * For anyone who cares to read just what the Quran says and what was meant I'll post the reference.




Perhaps you should have another look at boggo's illustration. 







It is an undeniable truth. Perhaps,with you obsession, you would feel more comfortable if you were a part of the Muslim minority here. We have no laws against apostasy.


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## Boggo (17 January 2015)

Julia said:


> From "The Australian" today:
> 
> Why is it that the Muslim community is demanding taxpayer funded government programs to prevent the bad behaviour of their young people?
> 
> ...




A read of the article in the link below puts the European problem in perspective.

Extract_ ".... in Denmark Muslims constitute only 5% of the population, yet consume 40% of the welfare budget."_

http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com.au/2010/09/cost-of-muslim-immigration.html


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## FxTrader (17 January 2015)

IFocus said:


> For anyone with an open mind this is a good read by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar from Mauldin (yes, the same gentleman who scored the most points in NBA history) Its in relation to the France murders.
> 
> http://time.com/3662152/kareem-abdu...bdo-terrorist-attacks-are-not-about-religion/



Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (his adopted religious identity) makes some very valid points in this article.  He is of course correct when he points out that money, bragging-rights in a power struggle and deceived, programmed drones are all part of the tapestry of what is going on in radical Islam.  However, to assert that terrorist acts committed by "self-proclaimed" radical Muslims should be divorced from any genuine religious motivation is both disingenuous and a naive delusion.

Kareem's views on Islam must be viewed through a prism of discernment, he is an extremely biased commentator on the subject.  The KKK analogy is a particularly poor argument, the hate and prejudice enshrined by this racist organization and the acts they carry out, are done in the name of white supremacy not Jesus.

Kareem's desperate plea that acts of Islamist terrorism be dismissed as a misunderstanding of true Islam by criminals should be discarded as nonsensical.  To suggest that a violent Muslim fundamentalist does not properly understand Islam (and Islam is not the problem) when he flies a plane into a building shouting Allahu Akbar begs the question of who is more deceived, the person committing the act or the person who denies Islam is the problem and prime motivation.  

It takes the basic tenets of a religion like Islam to create the violent drones he rails against.  When acts of jihad are a ticket to an eternity in paradise, life on earth is only a proving ground for demonstrating one's worthiness to get the ticket.  The sooner one can get to paradise the better, it's not a death cult but rather an eternal life in paradise cult.  Islam certainly inspires evil and is a grand deception that, like its cousin Christianity, is a combination of myth, legend and fiction masquerading as absolute truth.


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## Calliope (17 January 2015)

FxTrader said:


> When acts of jihad are a ticket to an eternity in paradise, life on earth is only a proving ground for demonstrating one's worthiness to get the ticket.  The sooner one can get to paradise the better, it's not a death cult but rather an eternal life in paradise cult.  Islam certainly inspires evil and is a grand deception that, like its cousin Christianity, is a combination of myth, legend and fiction masquerading as absolute truth.




Apparently there are not only virgins in paradise, but young boys too, to cater for males with different tastes.. 



> The poor wives who gave up their virginity for the pleasure of their husbands do not get anything. But wait, Allah is all merciful! He gives the wives the rare honour of watching their husbands deflower those 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys.






> Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic countries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he (Mohammed) promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.
> 
> (QURAN 52:24): "And there will go round boy-servants of theirs, to serve them as if they were preserved pearls."
> 
> ...




http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/islam/72virgins_and_boys.htm


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## IFocus (17 January 2015)

FxTrader

Agree with your over all sentiment FX however isnt the KKK using Christianity for cover or twisting words out of the Christian faith to suit their view of the world in the same or similar manner the radical Jihad  mob are.

I do understand that Islam has in the main only ever been spread by the sword.



> The KKK analogy is a particularly poor argument, the hate and prejudice enshrined by this racist organization and the acts they carry out, are done in the name of white supremacy not Jesus.





I am sure you have a better understanding of the Islamic verses than I, couldn't anyone cherry pick how you apply similar to the above  example of the KKK?

The Bali bombers had no sympathy  from the general population in Indonesia when they were shot only the radicals thought it was an act of faith.

Most of the lunatics committing murder against western targets have been complete losers by any measure ex druggies, drug dealers, pips, lost souls with no purpose and a bent for breaking rules hardly intellectuals of a religious faith rather drones as you put it under the influence of men wanting to exercise power.  


The immediate issue for the west is that large populations of Muslims live among us, as expressed by a security expert on ABC the other day the west must mobilise the moderates against the radicals failure to do so will just produce more radicals. 




> Kareem's desperate plea that acts of Islamist terrorism be dismissed as a misunderstanding of true Islam by criminals should be discarded as nonsensical.  To suggest that a violent Muslim fundamentalist does not properly understand Islam (and Islam is not the problem) when he flies a plane into a building shouting Allahu Akbar begs the question of who is more deceived, the person committing the act or the person who denies Islam is the problem and prime motivation.


----------



## Calliope (17 January 2015)

Open-minded IFocus asks the question;



> however isnt the KKK using Christianity for cover or twisting words out of the Christian faith to suit their view of the world in the same or similar manner the radical Jihad mob are.




So what? The estimated Klan membership of 3000 to 5000 in America is miniscule. There are 1.5 billion Muslims.The Klan's potential for evil is negligable, Islam's potential for evil is massive and is being demonstrated every day.


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## luutzu (17 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Open-minded IFocus asks the question;
> 
> 
> 
> So what? The estimated Klan membership of 3000 to 5000 in America is miniscule. There are 1.5 billion Muslims.The Klan's potential for evil is negligable, Islam's potential for evil is massive and is being demonstrated every day.




How do you say stuff like that and not see how wrong that is? Both intellectually and just... common sensibly?

So the KKK members, despite also being White and Christian, are on the whole only dangerous because they're members of the KKK. So when it comes to the KKK, they're nasty because of their membership card - one that reads "KKK" - any White or any Christian that's not a KKK member, they're innocent.

But with the terrorists, being Arab and Muslim (predominantly) as well as member of one Jihadist group or another... why these terrorists are the same as all the rest of them Muslims - all 1.5 billions of them.

Wow!


Well at least you see all men (of the same race and religion) are brothers - except when they're White, Christian and also nasty - in which case they're just nasty and their claim to the same faith as yours are false, their same skin colour... that's just because they don't go out too often.


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## bellenuit (17 January 2015)

*Meet the honor brigade, an organized campaign to silence debate on Islam*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...002e5a-9aaf-11e4-a7ee-526210d665b4_story.html


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## Bintang (17 January 2015)

IFocus said:


> FxTrader
> Isn’t the KKK using Christianity for cover or twisting words out of the Christian faith to suit their view of the world in the same or similar manner the radical Jihad mob are.




KKK were racist criminals.  _Jihadists are religious warriors._
KKK operations were limited to within the USA. _Jihadists operate globally._
KKK were not following a mission to conquer the world.  _Jihadists are pursuing a goal of forcing the entire world to completely submit to Islam and Sharia law._
KKK were officially denounced by virtually every Christian denomination in existence. _How many Islamic organisations have officially denounced the Jihadists?_



IFocus said:


> FxTrader
> I do understand that Islam has in the main only ever been spread by the sword.



Doesn’t that tell you enough?



IFocus said:


> FxTrader
> The immediate issue for the west is that large populations of Muslims live among us, as expressed by a security expert on ABC the other day the west must mobilise the moderates against the radicals failure to do so will just produce more radicals.




There are very few moderates who have the courage to speak out let alone mobilise against the radicals (_whatever ‘mobilise against’ actually means ??_)  Those muslims who stood up after the Paris shootings and declared on CNN that Islam is a religion of peace are either woefully ignorant of their own Islamic doctrine or were being deliberately deceptive. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are just woefully ignorant and also very well meaning. Unfortunately though, their naÃ¯ve statements are impotent. 

There are however, some *ex*-muslim scholars who at very great personal risk have in recent years published their detailed scholarly research to try and educate both the West and other muslims about the real nature of Islam and the truth about the life of its sole creator – Muhammad.

I believe the best way to counter the muslim radicals is for the work of these scholars to be spread far and wide under the protection of Western freedom of speech (_for as long as we still have it_). I am certain there are muslims who will flee from the control of Islam once they understand how they themselves have been deceived. The *ex*-muslim Islamic scholars themselves are prime examples and we should be extremely grateful to them. Their published works are potentially our best bulwark.


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## bellenuit (17 January 2015)

basilio said:


> As I said I believe quite strongly that the portrayal of Islam as inherently evil by quotation of the Quran is just a series  of simplistic or willfully ignorant actions.
> 
> *It is dead simple to trash a religion by picking words and phrases out of context both linguistically and historically. * For anyone who cares to read just what the Quran says and what was meant I'll post the reference.




I have often encountered those sites that try to explain away the inherent violence and hatred promoted by the Quran. While there are many Islamophobes that deliberately misquote the Quran, Hadith and other "sacred" texts, there are many serious scholars of Islam that do not misquote and show precisely the violence that Islam advocates. I know there are also parts of the Quran that promote tolerance and peace, but that does not excuse the inherently evil parts. In regards to the latter, when you go to those apologist sites, you will see complete obfuscation and deceit in their attempts to deny the obvious meaning of what is written. You will see them say "kill" doesn't actually mean kill, "Jews" doesn't apply to all Jews or to present day Jews but just a particular group of Jews that they were at war with at a particular time. "War" doesn't mean war, but passive resistance of some sort. It is they that are falling over backwards to linguistically twist what was written so that it appears not to mean what it patently obviously says. When I have time to do it justice, I will give some examples.

Looking at another aspect of the "scared" texts, their explanation of physical phenomena such as the age of the earth, of man, formation of planets and stars etc. Since the Quran is the written word of Allah to all that accept Islam, then true Islamists must accept what is written in those texts as correct. But we know, with an additional 1400 years of scientific knowledge to draw from, that the "sacred" texts are wrong in the explanation they give to the physical world. These same apologist websites also address these incompatibilities in exactly the same way as for the violence aspect, by obfuscation and deceit. Words are twisted to mean something else so that they can fit in with modern day scientific knowledge (though they mostly haven't accepted evolution yet). In fact I recently read several articles on Islamic websites that said a multiverse universe is consistent with the Quran. These were in response to a growing number of scientists backing the possibility of a multiverse rather than a single universe.  

Here is an example and look at the nonsense they put up to support that argument.

*Multiverse in the Quran?*

http://www.islamophilic.com/#!Multiverse-in-the-Quran/c1p08/E06194D6-184B-4365-B9F3-D3F16F6D479C

It should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that this is just a bulldust explanation so that they can continue to claim that the Quran is the written word of God and is beyond criticism. Why is it so difficult to not see that their "explanations" for the violence and hatred in the Quran is just the same bulldust so that they can claim Islam to be a religion of peace and distance themselves from the violence that is endemic in the muslim world.

One of the reasons moderate muslims find it impossible to control the extremists in their midsts is that the extremists rely on the words that the Quran and Hadith actually say in support of their actions and the moderate leaders have nothing to counter them other than perhaps drawing on those parts of the Quran that promote peace. But even those parts, when you read them in context, only support peace and tolerance to infidels when they succumb to the will of Allah.


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## Bintang (18 January 2015)

*Of Course - Islam Has Nothing to Do with Islam*


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## Calliope (18 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> *Of Course - Islam Has Nothing to Do with Islam*




Of course President Obama believes that terrorism "has nothing to do with Islam" It's hard not to believe that he is a closet Islamist


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## Bintang (18 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Of course President Obama believes that terrorism "has nothing to do with Islam" It's hard not to believe that he is a closet Islamist




Maybe Obama and all others like him are just trying to avoid being added to the Islamic terrorist hit lists. Speak out and speak the truth and that's where you end up,  like *ex*-muslim (i.e. apostate) Ayaan Hirsi Ali who  says that terrorism has everything to do with Islam.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4160195.htm


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## Julia (18 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Speak out and speak the truth and that's where you end up,  like *ex*-muslim (i.e. apostate) Ayaan Hirsi Ali who  says that terrorism has everything to do with Islam.



I admire her conviction and courage.  It is in strong contrast to Australian Muslim 'moderate leaders' who were reported recently as being too afraid to confront radicalised members of their family or community.

Surely the obvious thing to do would be to report them to the police or other appropriate agency.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 January 2015)

Julia said:


> I admire her conviction and courage.  It is in strong contrast to Australian Muslim 'moderate leaders' who were reported recently as being too afraid to confront radicalised members of their family or community.
> 
> Surely the obvious thing to do would be to report them to the police or other appropriate agency.




Wouldn't you agree that the smart thing to do for a "moderate" Muslim is to not draw attention and possible reprisal to yourself by publicly confronting radicals, but privately "dob them in" to police ?


----------



## Julia (18 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Wouldn't you agree that the smart thing to do for a "moderate" Muslim is to not draw attention and possible reprisal to yourself by publicly confronting radicals, but privately "dob them in" to police ?



  I have no idea.  Depends on their family and community relationships, I suppose.  I'd have thought that if your son or daughter was showing signs of untoward activity you'd have a responsibility to make an effort to deal with it intra-family as first resort.

I already suggested there existed the option of contacting police, rather than  just doing nothing which is what was implied in the article.


----------



## luutzu (18 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Maybe Obama and all others like him are just trying to avoid being added to the Islamic terrorist hit lists. Speak out and speak the truth and that's where you end up,  like *ex*-muslim (i.e. apostate) Ayaan Hirsi Ali who  says that terrorism has everything to do with Islam.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4160195.htm




She's what people call "useful idiots". 

And if you've watch the interview and want me to explain, your're not interested to know what's wrong with what she said.


----------



## Bintang (19 January 2015)

*Re: The West has lost its freedom of speech*



Macquack said:


> Therefore, you are concluding that a  true muslim can not be a moderate, therefore all muslims are radicals.






Calliope said:


> As I said Mac; "It is a common feature of posters whose arguments are going up a blind alley to ascribe this sort of twisted inference to the statements of those who do not agree with them".






luutzu said:


> How do you call it reasoning when you said Muslims and Islam is this and that, all of them... and somehow not all, not even most, of them do what you say they'll do. And yet you still believe it.






pixel said:


> The essence of what you're saying is "All Muslims are bad radicals; anyone who has been brought up a Muslim and is not bad and radical, can no longer be called a Muslim. Therefore, all Muslims are bad radicals. q.e.d."






bellenuit said:


> Yes, a monumental difference that so many fail to see or don't want to see.




After some reflection I think we have been talking at cross-purposes and that the reason for this is that we are using terminology for which we have no agreed definitions and which fails to adequately differentiate.

I think there are at least eight different categories of muslims which we should consider. I have listed these in the following table along with examples of groups or individuals that I think fit into these categories:





The exact definitions I will leave for wider discussion if any one is interested but I will begin with my definition of one of the categories, i.e. the Quasi Muslim

_A Quasi Muslim is a muslim, who though he dresses in white robes and behaves with utmost piety while in his home environment, becomes a booze swilling lecher whenever he gets the chance to slip away incognito to places of Western-style decadence, far away from the scrutiny of family and pious cohorts.
_
This definition can have a fairly universal application. With some slight wording changes it can be used to define, for example, a Quasi Christian Evangelist.


----------



## pixel (19 January 2015)

*Re: The West has lost its freedom of speech*



Bintang said:


> After some reflection I think we have been talking at cross-purposes and that the reason for this is that we are using terminology for which we have no agreed definitions and which fails to adequately differentiate.
> 
> I think there are at least eight different categories of muslims which we should consider. I have listed these in the following table along with examples of groups or individuals that I think fit into these categories:
> 
> ...




I think you're on the right track, Bintang; and I commend you for taking action.

As your categories refer to different groups of Muslims and their interactions with each other and outsiders - as opposed to this topic, Western freedom of speech - would you object to my moving it to the "Evil Islam" thread?
PS: Sorry, my typo. in the thread title, it says "Evil"; of course, "Crazy" would fit too.


----------



## Bintang (19 January 2015)

*Re: The West has lost its freedom of speech*



pixel said:


> I think you're on the right track, Bintang; and I commend you for taking action.
> 
> As your categories refer to different groups of Muslims and their interactions with each other and outsiders - as opposed to this topic, Western freedom of speech - would you object to my moving it to the "Crazy Islam" thread?




I have no objection to that suggestion.
I didn't know there was a "Crazy Islam" thread but it sounds quite appropriate.


----------



## pixel (20 January 2015)

*Re: The West has lost its freedom of speech*



Bintang said:


> After some reflection I think we have been talking at cross-purposes and that the reason for this is that we are using terminology for which we have no agreed definitions and which fails to adequately differentiate.
> 
> I think there are at least eight different categories of muslims which we should consider. I have listed these in the following table along with examples of groups or individuals that I think fit into these categories:
> 
> ...




Where do Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims come in? At face value, their split looks similar to the Catholic / Protestant one in the Christian world. Although I'm not an expert, I also think there are "sects" of various flavours in both.


----------



## basilio (20 January 2015)

Well we are starting to reach a point where we are not lumping all Muslims as potential terrorists... 

Thank God(Allah..) for small mercies.


I see the issue in a number of different guises

1) I am overwhelmingly concerned about attempting to portray the Islamic religion itself as inherantly evil. I think that takes us into  Final Solution/ Nazi Germany territory which I alluded to in earlier exchange

2) There are very serious problems with some extremist philosophies around the world. We are currently focused on some fundamentalist Muslim groups but the behaviour of Ultra orthodox Jews in the West Bank (as an example) and Koran burning evangalists in the US shows there are plenty of other concerns

3) There are serious questions about how the US and "The West" have behaved towards many Muslim countries and the backlash that has created. In my view the core of that problem has been the relentless expansionism of Israel over the past 50 years and the continued support by The West  for these behaviours.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2015)

basilio said:
			
		

> 1) I am overwhelmingly concerned about attempting to portray the Islamic religion itself as inherantly evil. I think that takes us into Final Solution/ Nazi Germany territory which I alluded to in earlier exchange




Fair enough , but we also not be blind to the passages in the Koran that explicitly allows/permits/condones/instructs violence, and pretend that they are not there. 

As long as they remain there will be people that will take them literally, which is why we not only have terrorism, but acts of violence against family members (honour killings) who refuse to enter into arranged marriages etc.

So let us see world Islamic leaders renounce and excise the violent parts of their religion before we trust that they have actually come out of the Middle Ages into the modern world.


----------



## pixel (20 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Fair enough , but we also not be blind to the passages in the Koran that explicitly allows/permits/condones/instructs violence, and pretend that they are not there.




I reckon Ms Hirsi Ali summed it up quite fittingly in her interview with Jane Hutcheon:
The Qur'an is not only about religion, and Mohammed was not only the founder of a religion.
The prophet wore also the hats of a war lord, conqueror, slave trader, fitness instructor, and many more. For the unwashed masses of his time, he had to cloak instructions for personal hygiene into religious mumbo-jumbo, so they didn't spread germs by greeting guests with the hand that just wiped their bum. Makes sense in a waterless desert country. And the ban on foods that are quickly "going off" without preservatives - like seafood and pork - had the same useful purpose at the time. It's no coincidence that Jews and Arabs share the same rules.

As regards the treatment of women, look no further than 1st Corinthians, 14, v33-35. "Women, shut up and listen to your menfolk." Mohammed's advice "Hide them, so your neighbour won't be tempted" is no different from the rules laid down by other patriarchies of ancient times. It was far easier to tell a man "Lock her up like all your other property" than to tell him "Keep it in your pants if she isn't your mate." That's got nothing to do with religion, all to do with primitive machismo. Less than 200 years ago, that attitude was still enshrined in the code of law in many "Western" countries, including Great Britain and, by association, Australia.

On the subject of Islam, we must therefore differentiate between the passages on slave trade, conquest, tribalism, and ethics. Which is, IMHO, exactly what enlightened factions of religious groups, be they Jews, Muslims, or Christians of various shades, are beginning to do. They ought to be encouraged, not vilified.


----------



## bellenuit (20 January 2015)

basilio said:


> 1) I am overwhelmingly concerned about attempting to portray the Islamic religion itself as inherantly evil.




I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from here, basillo. Although all of us will have different answers to the thread topic, you seem to be of the opinion, as far as I can understand your responses, that Islam couldn't be inherently evil. That somehow because it is a religion that it couldn't be inherently evil? Religion is a man made meme, just like Nazism, which I would also called inherently evil. You fear that calling Islam inherently evil will result in a Nazi style pogram of innocent people, but you are IMO confusing the victims with the cause. You seem to be equating Islam and its followers with the Jewish people and Nazism and its proponents with critics of Islam. I think it would be far more correct to equate Islam with Nazism and equate Muslims and non-Muslims terrorised or brainwashed by Islam with the Jewish people.


----------



## dutchie (20 January 2015)

I'm telling you, football (soccer) is a tough sport   (to watch anyway!)


ISIS execute 13 football fans by firing squad for watching Iraq play Jordan on TV in Islamist-controlled Mosul

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Islamist-controlled-Mosul.html#ixzz3PKRPv0KZ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



Psst - Nothing to do with Islam


----------



## bellenuit (20 January 2015)

dutchie said:


> I'm telling you, football (soccer) is a tough sport   (to watch anyway!)
> 
> 
> ISIS execute 13 football fans by firing squad for watching Iraq play Jordan on TV in Islamist-controlled Mosul
> ...




This is just a few days after they executed some people in Iraq for breeding pigeons.

*ISIS Executes Pigeon and Bird Breeders in Diyala, Iraq*
 
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-executes-pigeon-bird-breeders-diyala-iraq-n287421


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

pixel said:


> Where do Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims come in? At face value, their split looks similar to the Catholic / Protestant one in the Christian world. Although I'm not an expert, I also think there are "sects" of various flavours in both.




Sunnis and Shi’ites are just subsets of the #3 & #4 categories.  Either Sunnis or Shi’ites can become Quasi Muslims. From my observation the transition from Muslim to Quasi Muslim is related to ‘personal wealth’ You need to have money to escape from the middle east and travel to the world’s fleshpot destinations.

As to why there are Sunnis and Shi’ites that’s an interesting and separate story.



basilio said:


> Well we are starting to reach a point where we are not lumping all Muslims as potential terrorists...




Only from the Western perspective.  From the Islamic perspective (which actually is the one that matters) there are only muslims and apostates (excluding the kafirs like you and me)






bellenuit said:


> I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from here, basillo. Although all of us will have different answers to the thread topic, you seem to be of the opinion, as far as I can understand your responses, that Islam couldn't be inherently evil.




The most authentic form of Islam being practiced in the world today is that being practiced by ISIS.  So if you don’t want to take the time to read up on what kind of a human being Mohammad really was and how he actually lived his life, just read all the media reports about ISIS and it will give you a very clear picture. 



dutchie said:


> ISIS execute 13 football fans by firing squad for watching Iraq play Jordan on TV in Islamist-controlled Mosul






bellenuit said:


> This is just a few days after they executed some people in Iraq for breeding pigeons.
> *ISIS Executes Pigeon and Bird Breeders in Diyala, Iraq*




*Isis throws 'gay' men off tower, stones woman accused of adultery and crucifies 17 young men in 'retaliatory' wave of executions*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-throws-gay-men-off-tower-stones-woman-accused-of-adultery-and-crucifies-17-young-men-in-retaliatory-wave-of-executions-9986410.html


----------



## basilio (20 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from here, basillo. Although all of us will have different answers to the thread topic, you seem to be of the opinion, as far as I can understand your responses, that Islam couldn't be inherently evil. That somehow because it is a religion that it couldn't be inherently evil? Religion is a man made meme, just like Nazism, which I would also called inherently evil. You fear that calling Islam inherently evil will result in a Nazi style pogram of innocent people, but you are IMO confusing the victims with the cause. You seem to be equating Islam and its followers with the Jewish people and Nazism and its proponents with critics of Islam. I think it would be far more correct to equate Islam with Nazism and equate Muslims and non-Muslims terrorised or brainwashed by Islam with the Jewish people.




I suggest you have misunderstood my statements. As I have seen the discussion, many people are trying to say Islam is inherently evil and quoting various sections of the Quran to back up their views. In other instances we just see some totally simplistic memes being paraded to back up the statement that Islam is inherently evil.

For what is was worth I offered a source which specifically addressed the issue of the 5 most misquoted Islamic verses. When you read it you can see how taking one statement out of a whole paragraph can instantly create a completely unrealistic picture.

This is not an accident of course.  On the net anyone can say anything ... and get away with it. In fact the more outrageous the better. The bigger the lie the easier  it is to get away with.

The process of selective quotation and outright lies has and can be used by anyone who wants to trash a religion or political group. Judaism has been historically trashed with "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"  (pure creative lies) and the blood libel was used to drive pograms in the Middle Ages.

On a similar note anyone can pick lines and passages from the Bible that portray  Jews and Christians as mass killers, slave drivers, women haters whatever. There is a ton of  historical date on the role of the Christan Church in killing heretics, Jews, Muslims, witches (women...) .  It's all there.  So on these grounds it wouldn't be hard to make the case that  "These religions are inherently evil" 

*My argument is that damning a religion as "inherently evil" is one of the strongest possible condemnations one can make of the religion, it's  followers and anyone who even supports the right of those followers to their beliefs.*

The Nazi reference follows this principle. Hitler decided that Judaism was intrinsically evil. That meant cleansing the German Reich of all Jewish taints. It started with laws against employment, marriage, owning of  businesses. It extended to forced  public identification, creation of ghettos and finally the extermination camps. 

In my view after one brands a group/religion as "inherently/intrinsically evil" you are well on the way to a final solution situation.

So the question would have to be

"Why on earth would we attempt to brand 1.2 billion people as part of an inherantly evil religion and not  anticipate a response?  
And how would at least some of these people respond to such a campaign?"

It is IMO factually wrong and a terrifyingly  dangerous way to behave as a community. Lets address  extreme and violent behaviour. Lets look at overall reasons for hatred .  But deciding athat the religion is inherently evil....


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

basilio said:


> As I have seen the discussion, many people are trying to say Islam is inherently evil and quoting various sections of the Quran to back up their views. In other instances we just see some totally simplistic memes being paraded to back up the statement that Islam is inherently evil.




So the behavior of ISIS is merely simplistic meme. Is that what you are trying to say? Well, that should be of great comfort to all gays. ISIS throws 'gay' men off tower

_The most authentic form of Islam being practiced in the world today is that being practiced by ISIS.  So if you don’t want to take the time to read up on what kind of a human being Mohammad really was and how he actually lived his life, just read all the media reports about ISIS and it will give you a very clear picture. _



basilio said:


> For what is was worth I offered a source which specifically addressed the issue of the 5 most misquoted Islamic verses. When you read it you can see how taking one statement out of a whole paragraph can instantly create a completely unrealistic picture.




*Your offering is itself very selective and actually displays your total ignorance of Islamic doctrine and the life of Mohammad.*



basilio said:


> My argument is that damning a religion as "inherently evil" is one of the strongest possible condemnations one can make of the religion, it's  followers and anyone who even supports the right of those followers to their beliefs.




Couldn’t agree more with you on this one basilio. That is precisely why those who have real knowledge and experience in these matters are making these condemnations - unlike the apologists who pontificate based on nothing but superficiality and pure ignorance.



basilio said:


> In my view after one brands a group/religion as "inherently/intrinsically evil" you are well on the way to a final solution situation.




No. Its only the starting point (a *wake-up call*) of trying to jolt the Western world out of its apathetic  and politically correct slumber.


----------



## Calliope (20 January 2015)

basilio said:


> I suggest you have misunderstood my statements. As I have seen the discussion, many people are trying to say Islam is inherently evil and quoting various sections of the Quran to back up their views. In other instances we just see some totally simplistic memes being paraded to back up the statement that Islam is inherently evil.




You obviously have stronger emotive ties to Islam than you do to opponents of Islam. I get the feeling that you are laying the ground for a conversion, and that's why you have been cherry-picking the Quran looking for the "good" bits.  That's okay, as long as you remember that it's a one-way ticket and that, as Bintang said, the purest form of Islam is that practiced by ISIS. A well brought-up lady like yourself might find them a bit crude.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2015)

Calliiope said:
			
		

> You obviously have stronger emotive ties to Islam than you do to opponents of Islam.




The master of denunciation by inference strikes again.

I suppose you will call him a terrorism supporter next simply because he, like myself, does not go for the tarring of everyone with the same brush tactics that is the only argument that simple minds who can only see the world in black and white can mount.


----------



## basilio (20 January 2015)

Bintang

ISIS is a devastatingly dangerous fanatical group. The rest of the Muslim world is just as concerned as "The west".  When the US and Iran partner to tackle ISIS one gets an idea of how dangerous they are to all people.

A meme is a simple,powerful argument. The fact that ISIS treats non Muslims so appallingly is an indictment on them and not  another 1.2 billion Muslims. And who is Allahs name says that ISIS is the most authentic form of Islam being practiced in the world?  They certainly might. Anyone who wants to tar the whole Muslim community with the with the ISIS touch would also make the claim. A billion other people would vehemently disagree.

As for my referance regarding the word of Mohammad and the Quran. I'm bewildered at your ignorance.  The person I cited is a leading Islamic scholar.  The analysis of the relevant passages is as reasonable as any similar analysis of Torah or Christan gospels. The fact is that cherry picking lines from a source without reading what is said before /and or after and the historical context is just intellectually disingenuous (at best) or (at worst ) deliberately deceitful.

I suppose the main problem with the analysis is that it makes sense of the whole Koran in a way that  attackers don't want to see.

 For anyone who has an open mind check out the arguments on the website I cited. 

For those who somehow believe that ISIS represents the views of the rest of the Muslim world, read the open letter to Baghadi which  explicitly damms the movement and it's horrific actions. This letter is part of a world wide Islamic  campaign to stop this movement.

http://spiritualperception.org/
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/

________________________________________________________________________

On a broader question.   How do people get "brainwashed" into violent cults ? An excellent story from a young man who was himself "indoctrinated" into a Neo Nazi cult . Well worth a read



> * I was radicalised by a neo-Nazi group. It could just have easily been Isis*
> James Fry
> 
> Radical groups recruit young people who are socially isolated, confused and angry. The way to fight their recruitment is with better social services, not better military spending




http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...azi-group-it-could-just-have-easily-been-isis


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I suppose you will call him a terrorism supporter next simply because he, like myself, does not go for the tarring of everyone with the same brush tactics that is the only argument that simple minds who can only see the world in black and white can mount.




Some simple minds only see black and white

Some other simple minds only see muslims and non-muslims

The heinously clever minds amongst us see muslims, apostates and kafirs


----------



## basilio (20 January 2015)

For anyone interested in how the rest of the Muslim world view ISIS and  the way in which they have reacted to the outrages the open letter is  a good read.

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/14/english-v14.pdf


----------



## basilio (20 January 2015)

That  URL for the open letter is not that user friendly.

Use this for an easier read.

(Warning. The description of ISIS atrocities is not for the faint hearted. )

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/pdf/Booklet-English.pdf


----------



## bellenuit (20 January 2015)

basilio said:


> *My argument is that damning a religion as "inherently evil" is one of the strongest possible condemnations one can make of the religion, it's  followers and anyone who even supports the right of those followers to their beliefs.*
> 
> The Nazi reference follows this principle. Hitler decided that Judaism was intrinsically evil. That meant cleansing the German Reich of all Jewish taints. It started with laws against employment, marriage, owning of  businesses. It extended to forced  public identification, creation of ghettos and finally the extermination camps.




This again is where I think you are making the wrong comparison. It was Nazism that was inherently evil and Islam is today's equivalent to Nazism. In Palestinian schools they are thought that the Jews are monkeys (*Case Study: Portraying Jews as "Apes and Pigs"* http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=786 ) and the Islamic Hadith calls for the extermination of the Jews (it is explicit and no amount of obfuscation by the apologists can claim it is saying otherwise: *73% of Palestinians agree with genocidal hadith about Muslims killing Jews hiding behind trees *http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/08/7...bout-muslims-killing-jews-hiding-behind-trees ). Although there may be instances of Muslims being harassed for wearing their headgear in Western societies, it is the Jews in Europe who, under attack by Islam, are the victims and reminiscent of Germany when the Nazis were coming to power.

*A new anti-Semitism? Why thousands of Jewish citizens are leaving France*

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/a-ne...usands-of-jewish-citizens-are-leaving-france/ 

*Jewish people feel they have no future in Britain as fears over anti-Semitism grow*

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/55...ry-about-future-fears-over-anti-Semitism-grow

It was Nazism that imposed censorship of "liberal" writings, movies and even music and it is Islam today that does the same thing. Islam is not standing up for the rights of free speech but like the Nazis who denounced "liberal" culture as Jewish filth, Islam denounce it as unIslamic and Jewish inspired filth.

We have seen the oppression of minorities in almost all Islamic states at the hands of the Islamists in power. It is there we see "laws against employment, marriage, owning of  businesses" by infidels. There are no comparable laws in any Western democracy applied to Muslims. 

Everything you fear about what could happen if Islam is denounced is actually happening all over the Muslim world against infidels, yet you do not seem to have an issue with it.

It was those who appeased Nazism that allowed it to take hold in Europe and it is those who appease Islam's barbaric culture that will allow it to spread in the West. 

*You are picking the wrong victim.*


----------



## Calliope (20 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The master of denunciation by inference strikes again.




You can see Rumpy, if you can get your head out of the sand, that bas gets highly worked up and emotive about any criticism of Islam. I made no inference, my assessment was based on her words.



> I suppose you will call him a terrorism supporter next simply because he, like myself, does not go for the tarring of everyone with the same brush tactics that is the only argument that simple minds who can only see the world in black and white can mount.




Rubbish. She is is sympathetic to the Islamist cause. She is on the wrong track. Even a simple mind like yours must be aware that Islamism is an evil religion/cult, and Bas is obviously smarter than you, who keep posting even when you have nothing to say.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

basilio said:


> I suggest you have misunderstood my statements. As I have seen the discussion, many people are trying to say Islam is inherently evil and quoting various sections of the Quran to back up their views. In other instances we just see some totally simplistic memes being paraded to back up the statement that Islam is inherently evil.
> 
> For what is was worth I offered a source which specifically addressed the issue of the 5 most misquoted Islamic verses. When you read it you can see how taking one statement out of a whole paragraph can instantly create a completely unrealistic picture.
> 
> ...




Well said.

Once we start to group and classify people, the next step will be terrifying and... quite rational.  If all of them are evil or somewhat evil, what do we do with evil people? Not going to live with them that's for sure.


----------



## bellenuit (20 January 2015)

basilio said:


> For anyone interested in how *the rest of the Muslim world* view ISIS [/url]




How do you make that conclusion?

*Cameron uses Downing Street talks to challenge Emir of Qatar to stop the flow of cash to ISIS*

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...challenge-Emir-Qatar-stop-flow-cash-ISIS.html

*‘ISIS Sees Turkey as Its Ally': Former Islamic State Member Reveals Turkish Army Cooperation*

http://www.newsweek.com/isis-and-tu...rds-former-isis-member-reveals-turkish-282920

*Facebook riddled with Australian Muslims supporting ISIS*

http://www.news.com.au/technology/o...-supporting-isis/story-fnjwmwrh-1227034437804

*80% of London Muslims Support ISIS*

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenfield/80-of-london-muslims-support-isis/

*Support for Isis stronger in Arabic social media in Europe than in Syria*

_Forty-seven per cent of studied tweets and posts from Qatar, 35% from Pakistan, 31% from Belgium and almost 24% of posts from UK and 21% from the US were classified as being supportive of the jihadist organisation compared with just under 20% in Jordan, Saudi Arabia (19.7%) and Iraq (19.8%)._

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nger-arabic-social-media-europe-us-than-syria

*16% of French Citizens Support ISIS, Poll Finds*

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795


----------



## basilio (20 January 2015)

Interesting Bellenit.  You now wish to introduce  the issue of the Arab-Isralei conflict into the discussion. 

I think it's a great idea because one of the most intractable issues in the Middle East is resolving which country is entitled to what land.

You offered two references to illustrate how Palestinians are indoctrinated regarding the Israeli state. The first comes from an Israeli research group. They should be even handed I guess. 

The other I don't know. 

Now if you would like to see a bigger picture why not check the work of Alison Weir. I'll take the trouble of quoting her background and comments about her work.



> If Americans Knew
> 
> * "Ms. Weir presents a powerful, well documented view of the Middle East today. She is intelligent, careful, and critical. American policy makers would benefit greatly from hearing her first-hand observations and attempting to answer the questions she poses. This is an intellectual, thought-provoking, and worthwhile presentation."
> 
> ...




http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/alisonweir.html

There are links to about 40 different stories she has written.


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

basilio said:


> ISIS is a devastatingly dangerous fanatical group. The rest of the Muslim world is just as concerned as "The west".  When the US and Iran partner to tackle ISIS one gets an idea of how dangerous they are to all people.




Ah yes, the old, simple-minded, ‘enemy of my enemy must be my friend’ concept.
This once again demonstrates complete ignorance.  ISIS are Sunnis. The Iranians are Shias. The Sunnis and Shia hate each other.
However, the Shia desire to eradicate Sunni will never make the Iranian Shias our friends. 



basilio said:


> A meme is a simple,powerful argument.



It can also have the meaning of ‘an element of a system of behaviour’. 



basilio said:


> And who is Allahs name says that ISIS is the most authentic form of Islam being practiced in the world?




To be a muslim is to believe that Mohammed was the perfect man. That’s why it is important to understand just how 'perfect' this man was.  Basilio, you obviously don’t know anything about this, otherwise you would easily understand the statement that ISIS is practicing the most authentic form of Islam in the world today.



basilio said:


> As for my referance regarding the word of Mohammad and the Quran. I'm bewildered at your ignorance.  The person I cited is a leading Islamic scholar.




I too am bewildered by your ignorance.
I’m sure you will correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the leading Islamic scholar you are quoting is still a practicing muslim.  Try broadening your understanding by reading what the ex-muslim Islamic scholars have to say. Especially the ones, who are living under a constant threat of death for having dared to lift the veil on Islam. 

And then of course there is the great Islamic scholar Ayatollah Khomeini, *Shia* muslim and father of the Iranian revolution (those same Iranians who are now going to partner with the USA to rid the world of ISIS).  Here is one of his most famous statements:

_Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of other countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all!_




basilio said:


> For anyone interested in how the rest of the Muslim world view ISIS and  the way in which they have reacted to the outrages the open letter is  a good read.




A good read it may be Basilio but it is also clever propaganda. A discussion about  it almost requires a separate thread of its own. For brevity  I will let you into just one ‘dirty little secret’.  Non-muslims and apostates are not innocent. Only muslims are innocent.


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> How do you make that conclusion?
> 
> *Cameron uses Downing Street talks to challenge Emir of Qatar to stop the flow of cash to ISIS*
> 
> ...




*I would add to this that it was Saudi money that was used to create ISIS in the first place. Guess what people, the Saudis are Sunni muslims.*


----------



## bellenuit (20 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Interesting Bellenit.  You now wish to introduce  the issue of the Arab-Isralei conflict into the discussion.




I don't know which of my last two posts this is in response to, but nowhere did I introduce the Arab-Isralei conflict, other than reference what is being taught in Palestinian schools. It seems this is a diversion to avoid addressing what I have posted. The Israeli conflict is a symptom of the inherent evil in both of these major religions and to a certain extent Christianity through US support, but it does not in any way diminish the evilness inherent in these major religions, or specifically the evilness in Islam, the topic of this thread.


----------



## bellenuit (20 January 2015)




----------



## basilio (20 January 2015)

*The bigger picture.*  Israel and The Palestinian conflict.

While we are on the subject of atrocities I'll introduce one of Alison Weirs investigative stories.




> *Murdering babies is “permissible” when they’re Palestinian
> *






> Alison Weir
> CounterPunch
> March 17, 2011
> 
> ...







> *A partial list of Palestinian Children Killed by Israelis*
> 
> This is a partial list of children mostly 13 and under of the approximately 1,500 Palestinian minors killed by Israeli forces from fall 2000 through early 2011. During the same period Palestinians killed about 130 Israeli minors.
> 
> The following information is taken from Remember These Children, which works to document all Israeli and Palestinian children who have been killed, in the belief, sadly not shared by the U.S. media, that all of these children matter. In the list below, “IDF” stands for Israeli Defense Forces, an offensive, occupying force; “Incursion” refers to an invasion of Palestinian land by Israeli military forces. The full list is available at www.RememberTheseChildren.org




Check out the names and causes of death of these children. Then consider how their families and communities might feel.


----------



## bellenuit (20 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> The Israeli conflict is a symptom of the inherent evil in both of these major religions and to a certain extent Christianity through US support, but it does not in any way diminish the evilness inherent in these major religions, or specifically the evilness in Islam, the topic of this thread.




I don't intend to be diverted by the Arab-Israeli conflict, but this fresh tweet from Richard Dawkins best sums it up.


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Well said.
> Once we start to group and classify people, the next step will be terrifying and... quite rational.  If all of them are evil or somewhat evil, what do we do with evil people? Not going to live with them that's for sure.




You are quite right Iuutzu.
It terrifies me  that I am classified as a kafir.
(PS: You are too and so is basilio …… I think )


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> You can see Rumpy, if you can get your head out of the sand, that bas gets highly worked up and emotive about any criticism of Islam. I made no inference, my assessment was based on her words.
> 
> 
> Rubbish. She is is sympathetic to the Islamist cause. She is on the wrong track. Even a simple mind like yours must be aware that Islamism is an evil religion/cult, and Bas is obviously smarter than you, who keep posting even when you have nothing to say.




In scientific psychology, it was found that people stereotype this and that so it is easier to think.

Stereotyping, in other words, make the subject matter simpler to process - we don't want to see everything as completely new and must reprocess.

Some stereotyping are essential, passed down to us from our forebears due to its evolutionary advantages - most snakes will kill you, best to avoid and be afraid of them; women with big breasts and lots of curves would nourish your offspring better, so try to marry those ones...

However, for the simple minded, the lazy... stereotyping serves the need to not think too much else their head hurts. That's even easier to do when you got media and politicians winking and nudging if they're not screaming it out loud... that Muslims and Islam are this and that.
----


Seriously though, you ought to get to know a few Muslims. I went to school with some of them; have work with some of them; have dealt with a few tradies and contractors; have interacted with them... they're good people... not very different from any group you care to compare to.

Give you an example. We were demolishing this brick shed and hired a few skip bins from this Muslim skip hire place. The owner, who is also the driver, saw our shed and see it's all brick. Know what he said? We've already agreed on the price but once he saw our pile he said that if we just throw bricks in the bins, he'll charge us $550 instead of $800. 

Even advised us on how to recycle the colorbond and have it picked up free, and the few sticks of timber we can take to the depot ourselves.

I've met enough Arabs and Muslims to know they're not all like that, but that also applies to other races I know as well - including the Asians, and the Catholics, and the Whites.

So trust me, you're wrong about Muslims and Islam... and man, you do not want to live in a country where the majority think like you do about them or any other group either.


So if you yourself have looked into this issue carefully and concluded that Muslim and Islam is just nasty, then OK; Just make sure you're not being made a fool of by those with other motives.

A first step might be to ask why is it that we always fight bad and evil people.

Are they bad and evil because they're really nasty, or so because they're against us only.

Are we good and pure when we flatten homes and destroy cities to protect ourselves or avenge crimes against us; but they are evil and cruel when they do similar for perceived wrongdoings by us?


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> So trust me, you're wrong about Muslims and Islam... and man, you do not want to live in a country where the majority think like you do about them or any other group either.




That concerns me far less than living in a country which has been subjugated to Sharia law.

_"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of other countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all!"_


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> You are quite right Iuutzu.
> It terrifies me  that I am classified as a kafir.
> (PS: You are too and so is basilio …… I think )




From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)


*Kaffir (racial term):*

*Etymology* - 

"Kaffir" is derived from the Arabic word (Arabic: كافر) that is usually translated into English as "non-believer", i.e. a non-Muslim. The word was originally applied to non-Muslim black peoples encountered along the Swahili coast by Arab traders.


The word kaffir is used in South Africa to refer to a black person. Now widely considered an offensive ethnic slur, it was formerly a neutral term for South African blacks.

The word is derived from the Arabic term kafir (meaning 'infidel'), which originally had the meaning 'one without religion'.[1]

Portuguese explorers adopted the term to refer to black non-Muslim peoples when they became involved in the Arab slave trade along the Swahili Coast. Later, other European traders also adopted its use.[2]
----

The original Arabic definition seems fine with me - I'm an infidel. I've been called worst buddy.

The term the Portuguese colonialists use... mmm... is that the N word?


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> That concerns me far less than living in a country which has been subjugated to Sharia law.
> 
> _"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of other countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all!"_




Fascism doesn't seem like an ideal place to be. Not even for the master race.

Yea, a couple of hundred thousand Muslims, assuming they're all for Sharia Law, could manage that in Australia. That'd be the day.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> *I would add to this that it was Saudi money that was used to create ISIS in the first place. Guess what people, the Saudis are Sunni muslims.*




Guess what Bintang, the Saudis work for us.

The bin Saud dynasty wouldn't be around if the US/West didn't prop them up since WW2.


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> The original Arabic definition seems fine with me - I'm an infidel. I've been called worst buddy.




It’s never the name that hurts, it’s the sticks and stones – buddy.



luutzu said:


> Yea, a couple of hundred thousand Muslims, assuming they're all for Sharia Law, could manage that in Australia. That'd be the day.




Yea, buddy, only a couple of hundred thousand Muslims and we already have  Sharia law in the form of halal food certification. Give them time, buddy.


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Guess what Bintang, the Saudis work for us.
> 
> The bin Saud dynasty wouldn't be around if the US/West didn't prop them up since WW2.




Absolutely, and that's because the Saudi dynasty are quasi-muslims, not muslims.  Ossama Bin-Laden would have killed all of them if he had the chance.

Refer back to my table of muslim categories. It really does help to put everything in perspective.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> That concerns me far less than living in a country which has been subjugated to Sharia law.
> 
> _"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of other countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all!"_




So what does "spreading democracy" mean to you? Spreading it at home, on our own soil?

Do we really need to have it written down that we must defend our national interests? Protect our values and way of life? Maybe even spread it to people who might not want it... or who want it, but we say we spread it but don't actually do it.


What else...

English is now the international language? How did that happen?

How about the years and the calendar?

"The day must now follow the dictate of Ceasar" said Cicero. So does the whole world now. 

What's 2015 A.D. mean? OK it's now 2015 C.E, the common era... but it still mean "in the year of our lord", yea? From the birth of Christ - King of Kings.


So do you want to compare evil by word or by deeds? 
I'm sure there are plenty of words in the Torah and the Bible too.


----------



## basilio (20 January 2015)

Bintang exactly where did you come across the tag line you use for this discussion?


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Bintang exactly where did you come across the tag line you use for this discussion?




Which 'tag line' (I think I have used many) and why do you want to know?


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Absolutely, and that's because the Saudi dynasty are quasi-muslims, not muslims.  Ossama Bin-Laden would have killed all of them if he had the chance.
> 
> Refer back to my table of muslim categories. It really does help to put everything in perspective.




haha... yea, that nice list.

Saddam Hussein was OK when he fought Iran and gas Iranians (and his own people); Kuwait? That evil dictator!

Ey, I even saw a doco where Rumsfeld said how he flew to Baghdad and met Saddam during the Iraq/Iran war, but how reluctant Rumsfeld was and how when he shook Saddam's hand and smile and they sat side by side discussing poetry or something, Rumsfeld remembered how evil and vile Saddam was.

Not sure if the vileness seeth out before or after he authorises weapons to Saddam.

Bin Laden and the Taliban was not too bad when they fought the Soviets and the US supply them arms... 


Man, these war and peace and politics and grand strategy and oil and stuff... they sure make strange bedfellows.


----------



## Calliope (20 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> So trust me, you're wrong about Muslims and Islam




Well nothing that you have ever said about the issue (i.e. the bits I could decipher) makes any sense. I trust you man, but *you* are dead wrong.



> ... and man, you do not want to live in a country where the majority think like you do about them or any other group either.




Well they are very lucky to live here. We know they are up to no good, yet we tolerate them and even pay them welfare so that they don't have to work. And we even allow their Jihadist children who have joined ISIS, a safe passage back to Australia after they have learned their evil trade. The government panders more to them, than to the minority who recognise that Islam is evil. What are the apologists for Islam whinging about?

Where do you and Rumpy and Bas get the idea that we are not nice to them?


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> haha... yea, that nice list.
> Saddam Hussein  (*Sunni Muslim*) was OK when he fought Iran and gas Iranians  (*Shia muslims*) (and his own people – *mostly Shia muslims*. The ruling class *Sunnis* were a minority); Kuwait (*Quasi-muslims*)? That evil dictator!




No, not so hard to understand.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Well nothing that you have ever said about the issue (i.e. the bits I could decipher) makes any sense. I trust you man, but *you* are dead wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





You know "they" are Australians too right?

Yea, it said so on their Citizenship paper, maybe even birth certificate.

I guess Australian-ness must be in the blood. 


But you know, since welfare are just for "them", let's cut it. And those few "real Australian" who need welfare? I think you think they won't mind since it's for the best interests of Australia and real Australians.

Since they have more children, who attend schools, who may even go to uni... let's "deregulate" uni fees and those few real Aussies whose real Aussie children want to attend uni but can't afford it... well we all get the picture.


----------



## Calliope (20 January 2015)

Huh??? What the hell are you rabbitting on about?


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Huh??? What the hell are you rabbitting on about?




I think it passed your bedtime. Didn't nap today?


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> No, not so hard to understand.




No buddy, I said we, the West/US was fine with him when he do what we like; We weren't fine with him when he do the same thing that we do not like.

Got nothing to do with Religion.

We, like all nations, sleeps with anyone that serves our purpose. Sometime we feel bad about it... and sometime feel really really bad for having done it... especially when they jump in bed with others we don't like, or decided to not sleep with us anymore.


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> No buddy, I said we, the West/US was fine with him when he do what we like; We weren't fine with him when he do the same thing that we do not like.
> 
> Got nothing to do with Religion.
> 
> We, like all nations, sleeps with anyone that serves our purpose. Sometime we feel bad about it... and sometime feel really really bad for having done it... especially when they jump in bed with others we don't like, or decided to not sleep with us anymore.




And in what way exactly does you discourse help us to debate the very weighty matter of whether 'Islam is inherently evil?'


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> This again is where I think you are making the wrong comparison. It was Nazism that was inherently evil and Islam is today's equivalent to Nazism. In Palestinian schools they are thought that the Jews are monkeys (*Case Study: Portraying Jews as "Apes and Pigs"* http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=786 ) and the Islamic Hadith calls for the extermination of the Jews (it is explicit and no amount of obfuscation by the apologists can claim it is saying otherwise: *73% of Palestinians agree with genocidal hadith about Muslims killing Jews hiding behind trees *http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/08/7...bout-muslims-killing-jews-hiding-behind-trees ). Although there may be instances of Muslims being harassed for wearing their headgear in Western societies, it is the Jews in Europe who, under attack by Islam, are the victims and reminiscent of Germany when the Nazis were coming to power.
> 
> *A new anti-Semitism? Why thousands of Jewish citizens are leaving France*
> 
> ...




So if, say the Japanese, were to bomb us every couple of years; took our land, keep us in open air prisons, control all aspect of our lives.. .and now and then between the big "operations" they kick in our doors and take our brothers or father away in the night.... if they do that to us, are we expected to sing praises of them?

Maybe you ought to look up what Israel is teaching the Jewish Israelis about Arabs at school.


Yea, the French Jewish left France for Israel because of Muslims/Arabs.

haha... You would have thought the sensible thing to do would be to move out of the Arab ghettos or whatever you call them, and live next to nice Christian families IN FRANCE, or Australia, or US.

Doesn't sound smart to be fearful of Arabs and Muslims, then pack and move in next door to literally millions of them, and near hundreds of millions of them; most of whom you've seen on TV are kept in cages but now and then one or two managed to blow something up.

I would have thought they moved there because Israel gave them some $150 000 in tax cuts and assistance; also give them loans where they can keep and not repay if they stay in Israel for ten years or more.


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Huh??? What the hell are you rabbitting on about?






Bintang said:


> And in what way exactly does you discourse help us to debate the very weighty matter of whether 'Islam is inherently evil?'






luutzu said:


> So if, say the Japanese,  bla… bla… bla…. stay in Israel for ten years or more.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> And in what way exactly does you discourse help us to debate the very weighty matter of whether 'Islam is inherently evil?'




In that we think it's evil because some of them are fighting against us and our interests.

Saudi Arabia is quite a fundamentalist kind of Islamic kingdom isn't it? No democracy, freedom, none of "our values" there - what with the public head chopping they do weekly it seem... we seem OK with them and always invite them to our parties.

When evil is seen, but it came from a Christian state (Nazi Germany)... did we question evilness there as Christian values?

-----

I agree that this is a serious matter. But religion or Islam isn't it. What's weighty here is terrorism.


You can explain Islamic terrorism away by debating Islam and how it preaches violence and evilness... that's what we're told to do. So good job.

So sure, they hate us because of our values, because of who we are, because they don't like our women wearing bikinis (who would hate other people's women wearing bikini, seriously?) or going to work or study... That or maybe it's something else.


Sun Tzu said, war are struggles between two forces; hence it is only from knowing both yourself and your enemy will you attain victory. To know yourself but not your enemy; to know your enemy but not yourself... you can only win half the time. What victory is there to speak of when you neither know yourself nor your enemy.


We, the people, do we know what is and has been done in our name? Claimed to be done for our interests?

I doubt we know that.

Do we, the people, know our enemy? Know why they hate us and want to terrorise us? 


If our answer is we always do good or do nothing at all; That they hate us because of their religion and their lack of education and their savagery and barbarism... 

That's to fight wars, not to win it.


----------



## pixel (20 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> In scientific psychology, it was found that people stereotype this and that so it is easier to think.
> 
> Stereotyping, in other words, make the subject matter simpler to process - we don't want to see everything as completely new and must reprocess.
> 
> ...




and 







> In that we think it's evil because some of them are fighting against us and our interests.
> 
> Saudi Arabia is quite a fundamentalist kind of Islamic kingdom isn't it? No democracy, freedom, none of "our values" there - what with the public head chopping they do weekly it seem... we seem OK with them and always invite them to our parties.
> 
> ...




Thanks luutzu,

you've said everything I intended to say, but had trouble focusing my mind on a clear path among all the polemic and hateful commentary so rife in this thread. So thank you for summing it up in a concise manner - again! - far better than I managed in individual replies that were too easily trolled and buried .

If I had a choice, I'd lock this thread because nothing new is likely to be added. But that would only give more ammunition to additional repetitive whinges in the "no more freedom of speech" thread.


----------



## Julia (20 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> Even a simple mind like yours must be aware that Islamism is an evil religion/cult, and Bas is obviously smarter than you, who keep posting even when you have nothing to say.



Can't you express your view without being so unnecessarily insulting to another member?


----------



## Bintang (20 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Saudi Arabia is quite a fundamentalist kind of Islamic kingdom isn't it? No democracy, freedom, none of "our values" there - what with the public head chopping they do weekly it seem... we seem OK with them and always invite them to our parties.




Well you are focussing in on something quite important. Saudi Arabia is the cradle of Islam. It’s where Mohammad lived his life and it’s the guardian of Islam’s holiest places Mecca and Medina. But a while back we already touched on the reason for the dichotomy of the relationship between Saudi Arabia and the West and that is oil. (no surprise here)

But a contributing factor to the dichotomy is the Saudi Royal family who want to remain the lords of their feudal kingdom forever.  They live in extravagant luxury while many of their surfs are quite poor. The only way you can maintain something like that forever is by rigid, political control and Islam does that for them perfectly.

However, the Saudis who are mostly Sunni muslims are threatened externally by their Shia cousins such as those over the border in Iran. The hatred and bitterness between Sunnis and Shias goes right back to the immediate aftermath of Mohammed’s death.  So for years, the Saudi Royals have needed 3rd party military protection to maintain their extravagantly wealthy lifestyles and totalitarian control. Enter the USA who needed their oil and its win-win all around. (Except for the poor surfs at the bottom of the food chain.) 

The internal political control mechanisms that the Saudis use today were invented and perfected by Mohammad during the last 22 years of his life. During this time (610 to 632 AD) he expanded his territorial control by relentless war-mongering and pillaging of neighbouring tribes, until his small group of followers had grown from less than a hundred to tens of thousands and he was in total control of the Arabian peninsula.


----------



## Calliope (20 January 2015)

Julia said:


> Can't you express your view without being so unnecessarily insulting to another member?




Sorry to give you cause to reprimand me on Rumpy's behalf. But the truth will out. Incidently my post wasn't insulting but his was intentionally provocative. His reference to me;



> The master of denunciation by inference strikes again



.

I know I shouldn't respond to provocatory posts. It was a mistake to take Rumpy off ignore.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 January 2015)

Calliope said:


> I know I shouldn't respond to provocatory posts. It was a mistake to take Rumpy off ignore.




Put me back on again, because that's where you are.


----------



## basilio (21 January 2015)

Bintang the tag I am referring to is 

"The most authentic form of Islam being practised today is by ISIS."


Just where did you find this line or is just a  personal piece of creative writing ?


----------



## Bintang (21 January 2015)

pixel said:


> If I had a choice, I'd lock this thread because nothing new is likely to be added. But that would only give more ammunition to additional repetitive whinges in the "no more freedom of speech" thread.




pixel, as far as I am concerned this thread *is* locked/closed and also the “West Has lost Its freedom of Speech” thread.

When the moderator of a debate displays the level of bias that you have shown there is no point in the debate continuing.

It’s a pity because as events continue to unfold in Europe and the rest of the World I think there will be plenty of new things to add and discuss.

If you object to this criticism please ask Joe to terminate my membership of ASF


----------



## Bintang (21 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Bintang the tag I am referring to is
> 
> "The most authentic form of Islam being practised today is by ISIS."
> 
> ...




The answer is interesting basilio but I will have to leave it to your own research as I am no longer going to participate in this thread.


----------



## Calliope (21 January 2015)

pixel said:


> Thanks luutzu,
> 
> you've said everything I intended to say, but had trouble focusing my mind on a clear path among all the polemic and hateful commentary so rife in this thread. So thank you for summing it up in a concise manner - again! - far better than I managed in individual replies that were too easily trolled and buried .
> 
> If I had a choice, I'd lock this thread because nothing new is likely to be added. But that would only give more ammunition to additional repetitive whinges in the "no more freedom of speech" thread.




Very immoderate words from a Moderator. I will not be posting to this thread anymore.


----------



## basilio (21 January 2015)

Then perhaps we can all agree that this thread should be finished

I agree with Calliope, Bintag and Pixel that enough is enough.


----------



## Joe Blow (21 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> When the moderator of a debate displays the level of bias that you have shown there is no point in the debate continuing.




Just for the record, pixel is not the moderator of the debate. He is a moderator of the forum. He is not required to be objective in a discussion, especially one on religion or politics, and is entitled to participate and present his point of view. The only time a moderator is expected to be objective is when they are acting as a moderator.

Like all other ASF members, moderators are expected to obey the forum rules, and I see no evidence that pixel hasn't. Moderators are volunteers, not employees, and should not have their right to participate in discussions affected because they are prepared to give their time to assist in enforcing the forum rules.

This next part of my post is directed to all thread participants generally:

The problem with this thread, as with many other threads on political and religious topics, is the lack of respect shown by some towards others participating in the discussion. There is no reason to malign or denigrate others because of their beliefs and opinions. I understand that political and religious topics tend to stir the emotions, but that is no reason for not discussing the topic at hand in a mature, civil and respectful way. 

Address your remarks to the content of someone's post, rather than them personally. Debate and discuss, do not insult or attack others. It's not hard to treat others with respect and civility in spite of any philosophical differences you may have.


----------



## pixel (21 January 2015)

Thanks for your support, Joe;

Yes, I do have my own opinions *on all religions;* and I do not see the need to hide them. I only try to express them without becoming personally offensive. Whether I agree or disagree with statements made by fellow members, I try to argue the topic, not the person. That has nothing to do with bias for or against members.

On re-reading my posts, I do find one statement where I slipped up. The reference to _whinges about freedom of speech_ could have been worded *and targeted* better. I apologise, especially to you, bintang, if it caused offense. Be assured it wasn't aimed at you at all. I thought we were finally getting closer to common ground when you offered the first list of "different shades of Islam". It would be a pity if my frustration over repetitive bickering were to stop you, or anybody else, from participating.


----------



## evilk9 (21 January 2015)

I have nothing to say regarding the matter but I did find this video earlier in the week. 
Is of an ISLAM holy day. Involves slapping knives onto their back. 


Not very Gory but still NSFW 
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1f4_1421105280


----------



## Bill M (21 January 2015)

evilk9 said:


> I have nothing to say regarding the matter but I did find this video earlier in the week.
> Is of an ISLAM holy day. Involves slapping knives onto their back.
> 
> 
> ...




What about fanatical Philippinos nailing themselves to a cross re-enacting the crucifixion of Jesus, same idiocy, different religion.

My bolds:

---
In a bloody display of religious devotion Roman Catholic fanatics in the Philippines have had themselves nailed to the cross as the Christian world marks the day Jesus was crucified.

The gruesome real-life re-enactments of the crucifixion, which are held every Good Friday in the Philippines, are frowned upon by the Catholic church but have become freak tourist draws.

One of the participants, faith healer Arturo Bating, spread his arms and maintained stoic calm as he was hoisted onto a wooden cross atop a sandy mound. *He then had 10-centimetre nails driven through his palms.*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-06/philippino-fanatics-crucify-themselves-for-good-friday/3937448
---


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## SirRumpole (21 January 2015)

Bill M said:


> What about fanatical Philippinos nailing themselves to a cross re-enacting the crucifixion of Jesus, same idiocy, different religion.
> 
> My bolds:
> 
> ...




Pretty stupid, but at least they are doing it to themselves, not other people.


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## Joe Blow (22 January 2015)

So that this thread does not go further off topic, I have moved the discussion about moderation over to this thread: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5463

Please feel free to contribute your thoughts over there.


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## So_Cynical (22 January 2015)

CNN said:
			
		

> "I did not kill! I did not kill!" a woman shrieks as Saudi police wrap her head with a black scarf.
> 
> "Praise God," a Saudi executioner dressed in white tells her.
> 
> ...




Saudi Islamic law.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/21/middleeast/saudi-beheading-video/

Islamic and Evil - Absolutely.


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## Boggo (23 January 2015)

So_Cynical said:


> Saudi Islamic law.
> ....
> Islamic and Evil - Absolutely.




And Australian islamic law, keep paying those taxes folks, they are going to a good cause !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XP6Q2CXB-w


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## DB008 (23 January 2015)

Saudi

*How Saudi Arabia’s harsh legal punishments compare to the Islamic State’s*



> While Saudi Arabia isn't particularly forthcoming about its use of capital punishment (and Middle East Eye doesn't cite its source) and accurate information from within the Islamic State's self-proclaimed caliphate is hard to ascertain, information from news sources and human rights organizations suggest the chart is at least broadly accurate.
> 
> One key difference between the Islamic State and Saudi Arabia, of course, is that the latter is a key U.S. ally in the region – and a member of the U.S.-led coalition fighting the Islamic State. Some experts argue that the fundamentalist brand of Islam practiced by both has theological links, however, and Riyadh's recent crackdown has been interpreted as an act of appeasement for Saudi hard-liners.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/01/21/how-saudi-arabias-harsh-legal-punishments-compare-to-the-islamic-states/


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## moXJO (23 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> So trust me, you're wrong about Muslims and Islam... and man, you do not want to live in a country where the majority think like you do about them or any other group either.




Like the majority of Islamic nations.


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## bunyip (24 January 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/embed/A3YQANdvvbY

I posted this link yesterday on a couple of threads - now I'm posting it here as well to get the message out to as many people as possible.
Islam is a religion, but it's a lot more than that - it's a dictatorship of repression and evil, and we're completely off our heads if we welcome it into Australia with open arms. By doing so we'll only increase the speed with which this poisonous dictatorship destroys our freedoms and subsequently our quality of life.
Not to mention our economy.....does anyone seriously think that a country ruled by the backward mentality of Islam can have a strong and vibrant economy?!

The easiest way to bring Islam into Australia?....keep importing Muslim immigrants en masse!
Muslim immigration to Australia must stop. Sure, there will be howls of protest, maybe even some violence, but there will be a lot more violence in the long run if we keep going down the same road as France and dozens of other European countries who are now regretting their mistake of laying out the welcome mat to Muslims.
It's no stretch of the imagination to suggest that civil war could come to some of these countries as a result of their failed Islamic experiment.


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## SirRumpole (24 January 2015)

> The easiest way to bring Islam into Australia?....keep importing Muslim immigrants en masse!




Banning all migrants from receiving any welfare and family tax benefits for 10 years will dry up the supply very quickly.


----------



## bunyip (24 January 2015)

And here's a couple more videos that show what's in store for us and more particularly for our children and grandchildren, unless we wake up and start pressuring our politicians to take responsible decisions.

Don't think it can't happen here....it already _*is*_ happening here little by little, slowly but surely.

We'll lose this fantastic country called Australia and we'll lose our wonderful lifestyle unless we open our eyes and confront the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsiKVc028I0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpM6QKaAgP0


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## dutchie (24 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> https://www.youtube.com/embed/A3YQANdvvbY
> 
> 
> *Muslim immigration to Australia must stop*. Sure, there will be howls of protest, maybe even some violence, but there will be a lot more violence in the long run if we keep going down the same road as France and dozens of other European countries who are now regretting their mistake of laying out the welcome mat to Muslims.
> It's no stretch of the imagination to suggest that civil war could come to some of these countries as a result of their failed Islamic experiment.



My bolds.


Now that's a common sense solution. But we know politicians don't have any common sense.

For the sake of our future children we need to stop this cancer of Islam from within. Australia is not too bad at the moment compared to other countries (especially Europe) but we cannot be complacent and take the risk.

There is just no upside for Australia of importing more Muslims, only future pain.

Islamophobia I have but I am thinking about the future of Australia.

Anyone who thinks this will all go away over time is mistaken.


----------



## Bintang (24 January 2015)

I am reposting the following from ‘The Abbott Government’ thread as it is perhaps more relevant here.



moXJO said:


> Look at those countries that freely let them in and they are in a much much worse state then we are.






Tisme said:


> What I don't like about the whole thing is the concentration camp aspect and the nursery of discontent that leads to malcontent. Are we growing our own fifth column from the resident sympathisers who share culture and religion (has our contempt for muslim asylum seekers already lit the fuse for the young men who would harm us outside the faith?)




The fuse of contempt by muslims for non-muslims was lit by Muhammad himself 1400 years ago and has been burning ever since.  Most people in the West (i.e us dummy kafirs) are blissfully unaware of this in the same way that they are unaware that the Muslims living in our midst practice ‘taqiyyah”, which means Holy Deception. Here is a quote from Ali Sina (an Iranian, ex-muslim who is constantly living with the threat of death because of his criticism of Islam)

_Practicing Muslims come to the West and pretend to be moderates. They say everything you want to hear but secretly plan for your destruction. They smile; are friendly and amiable; they even pretend to be patriotic. However, their only objective is to make Islam dominant. They talk the talk, but will not walk the walk.
Lying as a strategy to advance Islam is called taqiyyah, or “holy deception.” Under taqiyyah, a Muslim is allowed to lie and say anything to pull the wool over the eyes of the non-Muslims and deceive them._

Here is  an example of how Muslims lie to us in the West. This video is about blasphemy laws in Pakistan.  The lies of the Pakistani Mullah to the Western television interviewer could not be more blatant.


----------



## Bintang (24 January 2015)

dutchie said:


> Islamophobia I have but I am thinking about the future of Australia.




There is nothing wrong with being islamophobic.
It is not racist or hateful but rather it is a healthy state of mind.
It means you have an intelligent instinct for survival.


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## luutzu (24 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> There is nothing wrong with being islamophobic.
> It is not racist or hateful but rather it is a healthy state of mind.
> It means you have an intelligent instinct for survival.


----------



## luutzu (24 January 2015)

dutchie said:


> My bolds.
> 
> 
> Now that's a common sense solution. But we know politicians don't have any common sense.
> ...






Leave the kids out of your craziness.

Trust me, they don't need your help if it's in this way.


----------



## Bintang (24 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Leave the kids out of your craziness.
> 
> Trust me, they don't need your help if it's in this way.




Welcome back to the thread Iuutzu.
Boxing is not much fun when there is only one contestant in the ring.
Perhaps we should declare this to be the start of ‘Round 2’ and ask pixel to ring the bell.
I wonder where basilio is. Still in the change room perhaps.


----------



## Bintang (24 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Leave the kids out of your craziness.
> Trust me, they don't need your help if it's in this way.




Non-muslim kids in Pakistan could sure do with some help:

_Sanao Menghwar and his wife, a Hindu couple residing in Karachi, Pakistan, were traumatized one November evening in 2005, when upon returning from work they discovered that all* their three daughters* were missing. After two days of futile searching, they found out that their daughters had been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam. The police arrested three Muslim youths in connection with the crime, who were later granted bail by a court because they were minors. The girls remain missing.
“Kidnapping Hindu girls like this has become a normal practice. The girls are then forced to sign stamped papers stating that they’ve become Muslims,” says Laljee, a Hindu resident of Karachi. “Hindus here are too frightened to vent their anger — they fear victimization,” he added.
Many Hindu girls meet similar fates in Pakistan. They are abducted, forced to convert to Islam and forced to marry a Muslim man while their parents are denied the right to see or talk to them. “How can a Muslim girl live and maintain contact with kafirs (infidels)?” remarked Maulvi Aziz, the cleric representing a Muslim kidnapper in another case that was taken to the court._


----------



## luutzu (24 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Welcome back to the thread Iuutzu.
> Boxing is not much fun when there is only one contestant in the ring.
> Perhaps we should declare this to be the start of ‘Round 2’ and ask pixel to ring the bell.
> I wonder where basilio is. Still in the change room perhaps.




Pixel is right though, this is going to keep going and going and there's nothing new to add.

But I'll try to take you guys seriously... I'm somewhat of an idiot that way - never a lost cause.


What you and co. have been saying regarding Muslims, Muslim refugees and anything Islamic for that matter... Let's take you at your word that you do it because you think it's right for the nation, right for Australia and Australian values... that you love your country, love your people, love your children... and because of that abundant of love, you must hate Muslims and Islam for they are either terrorists or welfare cheats or something bad.

If you look at the causes of the Great Depression, look at what it does to millions of Americans and their children; then look at the policies and solutions that save it and rescue western democracies from extinction... it had nothing to do with immigrants or Muslims. It hasn't then, it will not now.

The major causes of the Great Depression were rampant financial speculation, unregulated financial and banking systems; no social security safety net for the poor. 

So when the market collapses and the banks were closed, some 20 million Americans were out of a job, the economy then collapses... leading to Hooverville shanty towns all over the country, soup kitchens, riots and the near death of American democracy and capitalism.

When Franklin D Roosevelt came into the presidency, he was told that he will be seen as either be its greatest president or its worst... to which he replied: "If I fail, I'll be its last president".

And he wasn't kidding.

In Europe, fascism and communism was the new norm. So democracy and capitalism was either gone or on its way out.

What saved the US were the "socialist" New Deal policies of the Roosevelt administration. Policies like a minimum wage, regulation of banks and financial systems, medicare, the building of roads and infrastructure, the gov't guarantee on mortgages so most Americans could keep their home... All things that richest american industrialists, the master of the universe like JP Morgan... all hated it and all against it.

Then when Pearl Harbor happen and Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan declare war on the US... the mass industrialisation to build the "arsenal of democracy"... all funded by the gov't, with public money, not private kindness or industrialists' compassion and love for fellow countryman and democracy.

After WW2, the GI Bill allow some 5 million GIs free higher education... the building of schools, the funding of public education, the easy access for millions of Americans to learn... leading to higher pay, better productivity and innovation... expanding the middle class and enrich the nation and its industrialists.

These policies were adopted by other Western democracies, like Australia, with equal success.


So if you think Muslims or migrants are bad, look at history as well as current facts. You won't find them as the cause.

And if you look at what had been happening in the US and here in Australia... you will see that just about all the main building blocks that enable our prosperity are slowly being taken away - not by Muslims or migrants or refugees, but by politicians and their real masters.

Healthcare is on the block; higher education is going to be "deregulated" and will be out of reach to most Australians; the middle class... well I guess we prefer the "Aussie battler"... will keep on battling because to do otherwise would be unAustralian.


Why are the top 1% owning half the world? Why does 95% of gains in income since the GFC gains by the top 1%? Why is a first home out of reach of most working young Australians?

Welfare is being cut and made more difficult; pensions... public servants are being fired by the thousands each year... Every gov't expenditure is now a cost, not an investment; every asset that serves the community well is sold to pay for higher costs for services from those firms we've sold recently.

So we privatise our national assets, selling it to the rich so they could make it more efficient and not dream of charging us any higher; we dare not tax mining giants... then for grand strategy and trade reasons, go on foreign adventures.

----

The situation in the ME is going to get worst. Those evil terrorists are not so dumb. They know that oil is a finite resource, they know that once the wells run dry, there will be nothing left for them and their children... and back to diving for pearl or fishing or selling dates and nuts might pay for imported water to drink and maybe a blanket or two but not much else.

So they will fight and we will call them evil and savages more often and so could morally justified in flattening buildings and anyone at will... but now and then, they will be able to recruit from among us here at home...

Doesn't take a math genius to see that if they recruit two guys and give them a couple of rifles, we send in thousands of troops, stop a city, then after the clean up spend hundreds more millions to increase security... doesn't take much maths to know who have more to lose.

How many more buildings and towns can be bomb until we run out of targets? 


So much for Muslims and refugees causing us our pain.


----------



## luutzu (24 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Non-muslim kids in Pakistan could sure do with some help:
> 
> _Sanao Menghwar and his wife, a Hindu couple residing in Karachi, Pakistan, were traumatized one November evening in 2005, when upon returning from work they discovered that all* their three daughters* were missing. After two days of futile searching, they found out that their daughters had been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam. The police arrested three Muslim youths in connection with the crime, who were later granted bail by a court because they were minors. The girls remain missing.
> “Kidnapping Hindu girls like this has become a normal practice. The girls are then forced to sign stamped papers stating that they’ve become Muslims,” says Laljee, a Hindu resident of Karachi. “Hindus here are too frightened to vent their anger ”” they fear victimization,” he added.
> Many Hindu girls meet similar fates in Pakistan. They are abducted, forced to convert to Islam and forced to marry a Muslim man while their parents are denied the right to see or talk to them. “How can a Muslim girl live and maintain contact with kafirs (infidels)?” remarked Maulvi Aziz, the cleric representing a Muslim kidnapper in another case that was taken to the court._




I guess if those Muslims call those girls terrorists the world will be OK with it.


----------



## Bintang (24 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> What you and co. have been saying regarding Muslims, Muslim refugees and anything Islamic for that matter... Let's take you at your word that you do it because you think it's right for the nation, right for Australia and Australian values... that you love your country, love your people, love your children... and because of that abundant of love, *you must hate Muslims* and Islam for they are either terrorists or welfare cheats or something bad.



Iuutzu,  I have never said, ‘anyone must hate muslims’ or that ‘I hate muslims’. I tried to correct you on this previously. Perhaps I will get lucky a third time.
I sincerely believe that muslims themselves are victims of Islam and need to be helped if we are to help ourselves. Ali Sina also has this to say:
_Muslims are the primary victims of Islam. “My objective is not just to expose the dangers of Islam, but also to rescue Muslims from this web of lies. I want to save them from blowing up themselves and the world, to realize that mankind is one family, and help them come to their senses and to the human race, to prosper and live in peace. I want to help establish the unity of Mankind, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind further, but by exposing and removing the chief doctrine of hate in the world.”_

But by all means hate Islam. You will if you take the trouble to find out what really lies underneath its veil.


----------



## Bintang (24 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I guess if those Muslims call those girls terrorists the world will be OK with it.




And how about you. Would you be ok with it?


----------



## luutzu (24 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Iuutzu,  I have never said, ‘anyone must hate muslims’ or that ‘I hate muslims’. I tried to correct you on this previously. Perhaps I will get lucky a third time.
> I sincerely believe that muslims themselves are victims of Islam and need to be helped if we are to help ourselves. Ali Sina also has this to say:
> _Muslims are the primary victims of Islam. “My objective is not just to expose the dangers of Islam, but also to rescue Muslims from this web of lies. I want to save them from blowing up themselves and the world, to realize that mankind is one family, and help them come to their senses and to the human race, to prosper and live in peace. I want to help establish the unity of Mankind, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind further, but by exposing and removing the chief doctrine of hate in the world.”_
> 
> But by all means hate Islam. You will if you take the trouble to find out what really lies underneath its veil.




The non-Islamic world have done a pretty good job at blowing itself and almost the entire world apart a couple of times, all without Islam's help too.

You do realise that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all worship and believe in the same God right? That Jesus and Moses are considered a prophet in Islam too right? Just like Muhammad is also God's prophet.

All three came from the same region, follow the same god... yet one is more evil than the other two... and it just happen that the evil one is the one we're fighting against.


----------



## luutzu (24 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> And how about you. Would you be ok with it?




Why would I be OK? You seriously think I would ignore crimes by Muslims or apologise for Islam?


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> You do realise that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all worship and believe in the same God right? That Jesus and Moses are considered a prophet in Islam too right? Just like Muhammad is also God's prophet.
> All three came from the same region, follow the same god... yet one is more evil t*han the other two* ... and it just happen that the evil one is the one we're fighting against.




Wow, Iuutzu. you are seriously misguided on this:
The God of Christianity and Judaism is not the same as Allah of Islam.
Muhammad was Allah's messenger and Allah was just something invented by Muhammad to be his alter-ego.

The evilness of Muhammad is well documented. Just read Ali Sina’s book “Understanding Muhammad”, for starters
Would you care to explain  why you think Moses and Jesus were also evil?

_It is a mistake to think of Islam as a religion.  If Islam is a religion, then so were Nazism, communism, Satanism, Heaven’s Gate, People’s Temple, Branch Davidian, etc. If we think of religion as a philosophy of life to educate, to bring forth human potential, to elevate the soul, to stimulate spirituality, to unite hearts and to enlighten mankind, then Islam surely fails that litmus test completely. Therefore, by this measure, Islam should not and cannot be regarded as a religion.

Islam was not created to teach humans spirituality, nor make them enlightened. The spiritual message in Islam is secondary or virtually nonexistent. Piety in Islam means emulating Muhammad, a man who was far from pious. Rituals like prayers and fasting are mere window dressing to lure unbelievers inside, to give Islam the appearance of sacredness and spirituality. 

There is not a single day that someone is not killed by the hands of Muslim terrorists somewhere in the world. What will it take for the world to wake up and realize that Islam is not a religion but a dangerous cult? When are we going to pay attention to the Qur’an and the history of Islam to understand that terrorists are not “extremists” but practicing Muslims following the real, original teachings of their “holy” book and *the examples set by their beloved prophet?*_


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Wow, Iuutzu. you are seriously misguided on this:
> The God of Christianity and Judaism is not the same as Allah of Islam.
> Muhammad was Allah's messenger and Allah was just something invented by Muhammad to be his alter-ego.
> 
> ...




First, I didn't say Jesus or Moses were evil. As far as I am concerned, Moses and Muhammad were armed prophets, hence they didn't get crucified while Jesus only teach and have no army behind him.

Second, why am I not surprised you didn't know much about Islam.


From jewishvirtuallibrary.com:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Quran.html

*The Koran (Qur'an)*

"The Qur'an (in Anglicized form: Koran ) is certainly the greatest literary work in classical Arabic and for all Muslims stands as the definitive word of God (in Arabic: Allah ) spoken to the prophet Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. When reading the Qur'an , you should realize that, for all Muslims, the text you are reading is quite literally the voice of God;

"The recitation began one night in the year 610 A.D. Muhammad was sitting alone in the wilderness near Mecca when the Angel Gabriel appeared to him. The Angel called out to him with the command, "Recite! Recite! Recite!" Muhammad responded "I am not a reader." The angel recited three verses to him and when he awoke he had these verses, as he said, inscribed in his heart. These revelations continued for 10 days. Islamic scholars believe that the first revelation occurred on the night of the 27th day of Ramadan. This night is called the Laylat-al-Qadr (Night of Power). And according to the Quran, this is when God determines the course of the world for the following year...

"From that point on, Muhammad believed himself to be a prophet and messenger of God, the last in a line of seven prophets (beginning with Abraham and ending with Jesus Christ, who was prophet number six) and responsible for inscribing the last and most important of God's direct messages to the world, the Arabic Recitation, which is the full name of the work. The people of God, that is, the Jews and the Christians, were going astray; the purpose of the Arabic Recitation was to restore God's faithful to the proper path. ...


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> First, I didn't say Jesus or Moses were evil.




You wrote this:


luutzu said:


> ... yet one is more evil than the other two...



So if one of them is more evil they must all be evil to some degree. Perhaps you meant to write, one was evil but the other two were not.



luutzu said:


> Second, why am I not surprised you didn't know much about Islam.
> 
> *The Koran (Qur'an)*
> 
> ...




Iuutzu, it is  you who knows nothing about Islam.
Note the emphases I have added to your quotation.
And please tell us what *the proper path is* that the followers of Islam were following?


----------



## pixel (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> If you look at the causes of the Great Depression, look at what it does to millions of Americans and their children; then look at the policies and solutions that save it and rescue western democracies from extinction... it had nothing to do with immigrants or Muslims. It hasn't then, it will not now.
> 
> The major causes of the Great Depression were rampant financial speculation, unregulated financial and banking systems; no social security safety net for the poor.
> 
> [... etc]




Again, you're right about the facts, luutzu;

You don't even have to stop at the Great Depression in America. What caused the rise of the Nazi movement? Greed of the victors and their insatiable hatred and desire for revenge led to the insanity of Versailles, which attempted to impoverish an entire Nation. If you're made the scapegoat for all the world's woes, ordered to work for free and pay the entire bill - what do you do? Do you turn the other cheek and love those that hate you?
By the time Chamberlain realised that hatred begets hatred, it was far too late. Germany's early version of "Quantitative Easing" - pay your workers with IOUs in a share of assets they created - had created new assets much more powerful than the Allieds had expected.

*However ...* I fail to see the relevance for the evils of Islam. One evil, the evil of greed, unfettered capitalism, bombing and nuking cities, ... doesn't diminish the other evils, the lust for heheading, murder, mayhem, and general aggression against everybody that doesn't agree with hardline Islamists. 

While a class battle between Rich and Poor is still rife in Western nations, I see a subtle difference in the Islamic world, where most of the atrocities are perpetrated against their fellow Muslims. If the kidnapping of school girls, mass murder of kids and teachers, ... isn't deserving of the attribute "EVIL", I don't know what is.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> "From that point on, *Muhammad believed himself to be a prophet* and messenger of God, the last in a line of seven prophets (beginning with Abraham and ending with Jesus Christ, who was prophet number six) and responsible for inscribing the last and most important of God's direct messages to the world, the Arabic Recitation, which is the full name of the work.




The above omits a great deal of important detail:

_Historians tell us Muhammad used to withdraw to a cave, spending days wrapped in his thoughts. He heard bells ringing and had ghostly visions. He thought he was demon possessed, until *his wife reassured him he had become a prophet.* 
Convinced of his status, he was intolerant of those who rejected him, assassinated those who criticized him, raided, looted, and massacred entire populations. He reduced thousands to slavery, raped, and allowed his men to rape female captives. All of this, he did with a clear conscience and a sense of entitlement.
He was magnanimous toward those who admired him, but vengeful toward those who did not. He believed he was the most perfect human creation and the universe's raison d'Ãªtre. Muhammad was no ordinary man. He was a narcissist._

PS: Piety in Islam means emulating Muhammad, a man who was far from pious. ISIS is doing great job of emulating Muhammad.


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> You wrote this:
> 
> So if one of them is more evil they must all be evil to some degree. Perhaps you meant to write, one was evil but the other two were not.
> 
> ...




No, meant to say that all religion are evil. That from any religion, you could take out words and deeds as well as interpret literally or take some creative license... and all are equally evil.

Do not even need to use religion... take any nation's national "value" or virtues... the ones that does the most killing tend to become national heroes.


If you're going to start a religion, are you going to say that the other prophet, the other gods are OK, are good and great... but let's join you for a change?

IF Islam is so nasty and vile, so backward and barbaric and the world is better without it... take a look at contributions by Muslims after Muhammad. See their contribution to science, to education, to the arts, to philosophy etc. etc. 

Heck, the Muslims were debating Plato and Aristotle, were measuring the sun and mapping the stars, creating algebra and chemistry.... all that while Europe were in the dark ages busy burning witches and staying alive.

Won't surprise me if they eventually fell and their children be thought of as savages because they deem everyone else as barbarians.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> No, meant to say that all religion are evil. That from any religion, you could take out words and deeds as well as interpret literally or take some creative license... and all are equally evil.




I'll try again:
Please tell us what *the proper path* is that the followers of Islam were following?


----------



## pixel (25 January 2015)

Luutzu and Bintang:
Can I ask both of you to refrain from personal accusations. Let's play the ball, not the man.

The "ball" in this thread is evilness of Islam. Some hold the view that all three religions of the book are evil, or at least based on prehistoric superstitions, still adhering to which in this day and age must be considered "crazy". Stating that opinion doesn't make a person more or less intelligent or informed.

I believe we have long reached agreement that all religions have different flavours, and between black and white we could probably find different shades of grey.

wrt Islam, I'm afraid, Bintang, you may be right when it comes to a deep-set feeling in just about every Muslim, that they are Muslim first, human beings second. But I hope to Reason (can't say "to God") that you're wrong and Islam will undergo its own Reformation from within.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

pixel said:


> Luutzu and Bintang:
> Can I ask both of you to refrain from personal accusations. Let's play the ball, not the man.
> 
> The "ball" in this thread is evilness of Islam.




I am trying very hard pixel. What exactly was my accusation?


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

pixel said:


> Again, you're right about the facts, luutzu;
> 
> You don't even have to stop at the Great Depression in America. What caused the rise of the Nazi movement? Greed of the victors and their insatiable hatred and desire for revenge led to the insanity of Versailles, which attempted to impoverish an entire Nation. If you're made the scapegoat for all the world's woes, ordered to work for free and pay the entire bill - what do you do? Do you turn the other cheek and love those that hate you?
> By the time Chamberlain realised that hatred begets hatred, it was far too late. Germany's early version of "Quantitative Easing" - pay your workers with IOUs in a share of assets they created - had created new assets much more powerful than the Allieds had expected.
> ...




I agree. 

I wouldn't try to excuse an evil act by pointing to another evil act by the other side. 

No killing or brutality, by anyone, is ever justifiable. But to blame a religion or a race for the deeds of some who worship the same God or have the same skin colour... that's also wrong.

Just look at any civil war throughout history - brothers against brothers... whose god is kinder, whose race or whose religion is better? It's war, and in war, even good people do nasty things. That's not to excuse it, hopefully to say that we shouldn't go to war to begin with... maybe all wars should be avoided, and maybe all wars are avoidable.

I mean, ISIS is nasty... killing a lot of innocent people, most of whom were Arabs and Muslims. A few well publicised ones were our citizens... So we have reportedly killed 6,000 of them so far. Are we really better and more noble? Did they kill any Australians before we join the alliance and send the jets over?

So OK they're bad and the things they believe and do are repugnant to our values and morality... but we didn't intervene because of those do we? 

If we can justify our killings, why can't they justify theirs? Not saying they have to same claims, but killing is killing right?


It's very dangerous to group any religion or any people as evil... once we're OK with that classification, it's open season for whatever wrath we can bring upon them and those like them.

One can argue ends and means... I don't think that end is what we would want either.


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> I'll try again:
> Please tell us what *the proper path* is that the followers of Islam were following?




The will of God, as recited through the angel Gabriel to the prophet Muhammad.

Same as all religion aims to do - convert lost sheeps or bring people to the Tao (the Way). Same with our democracy under Bush Jr. - spreading democracy and nation building. Nasty business.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> The will of God, as recited through the angel Gabriel to the prophet Muhammad.
> 
> Same as all religion aims to do - convert lost sheeps or bring people to the Tao (the Way). Same with our democracy under Bush Jr. - spreading democracy and nation building. Nasty business.




Sorry that is incorrect. The 'proper path' for muslims to follow is to emulate the life of Muhammad. There is nothing else.

_We must understand that Muslims are expected to be like, and to think like, their prophet. As such, their attitudes, beliefs, thoughts and actions come to reflect his personality and mind. Since Muhammad is the model for all that is righteous in Islam, it is expected that his followers emulate him in every way._


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> The above omits a great deal of important detail:
> 
> _Historians tell us Muhammad used to withdraw to a cave, spending days wrapped in his thoughts. He heard bells ringing and had ghostly visions. He thought he was demon possessed, until *his wife reassured him he had become a prophet.*
> Convinced of his status, he was intolerant of those who rejected him, assassinated those who criticized him, raided, looted, and massacred entire populations. He reduced thousands to slavery, raped, and allowed his men to rape female captives. All of this, he did with a clear conscience and a sense of entitlement.
> ...




What does "armed prophet" mean to you? It's what Machiavelli used to describe Moses and Mohammad in advising how Princes and head of state should act.

As Chomsky said, all nations were born from violence. That is not to excuse or to explain it away. That is just reality. And to those who succeed and managed to establish kingdoms and colonies... their descendant and their people will write histories and glorify their deeds, will whitewash all atrocities, and all their children will want to be like them.

Do you want me to give examples other than those of Muhammad and the Muslims?


As Einstein said, peace cannot be attain through war; it can only be attain through understanding.

Didn't Jesus say something like "let those without sin cast the first stone"?


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## Bintang (25 January 2015)

pixel said:


> But I hope to Reason (can't say "to God") that you're wrong and Islam will undergo its own Reformation from within.




pixel, I used to think the same way until I started paying attention to ex-muslims. Again let me quote* Ali Sina:

_Islam is nothing but a tool of domination that was invented by a psychopath narcissist and that any thought of reforming it is futile. Islam cannot be reformed, but it can be eradicated. You can’t get rid of a lie by reforming it. This requires telling more lies. To get rid of a lie all is required is to tell the truth.
_
*PS: I quote Ali Sina extensively only because his book is written in a style that is particularly easy to read. There are other scholarly books that will tell you very much the same things but they are heavy going when it comes to reading them.

And in this context I would like to pose this question again:
_What could be the possible motive for people to speak out openly and vociferously against Islam when they do so at great risk to their personal lives and when their detractors do not face the same risk._


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Sorry that is incorrect. The 'proper path' for muslims to follow is to emulate the life of Muhammad. There is nothing else.
> 
> _We must understand that Muslims are expected to be like, and to think like, their prophet. As such, their attitudes, beliefs, thoughts and actions come to reflect his personality and mind. Since Muhammad is the model for all that is righteous in Islam, it is expected that his followers emulate him in every way._




Let's assume that we're Arabs living in the ME... and for whatever reason or whatever evil deeds our dear leaders committed against the West, our country and our people are attacked and controlled.

What would we do? We love Western democracy and its values? We dream of going to school and university? Or do we turn to the deeds of our heroes and prophet? Get courage and inspirations from them and work to drive out those we perceive as invaders?

If Churchill could turn to the Caesars and the Roman Empire for inspirations; if the Mongolian could worship Genghis Khan as its heroic founder; if the Americans would celebrate Columbus as a great discoverer (and ignore all the natives he killed directly)... are we really going to hold grudges against the Muslims for worshipping the founder of their faith and creator of their country?

Heck, I read before that even after WW2, most Germans still admire Hitler and were abusive to the children of that Colonel that tried to assassinate him (played by Tom Cruise in Valkyrie).


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## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Do you want me to give examples other than those of Muhammad and the Muslims?



No. Please let’s try to keep to the subject of this thread, which is Islam.



luutzu said:


> As Einstein said, peace cannot be attain through war; it can only be attain through understanding.




Unfortunately muslims don’t think like this because Islam completely contradicts Einstein.

The word ‘Islam’ means ‘submission’ and  according to Islam, *'Peace'* can only be attained by subduing all non-Muslims and making them *subordinate* to Islamic rule. 

The non-Muslim countries are for muslims a House of War. It is the duty of every Muslim to wage jihad in the House of War, and to fight, kill and *subdue* non-Muslims until that land is converted into a House of *'Peace'*.


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> ....
> And in this context I would like to pose this question again:
> _What could be the possible motive for people to speak out openly and vociferously against Islam when they do so at great risk to their personal lives and when their detractors do not face the same risk._




Sell books and get paid interviews.

Trust me, all religion have its extremists. You do not want to mess with any of them, from any religion. Try to go to Israel and mock Moses or Judaism; or to any religious group and poke fun at their saviour. I dare you.


Again, if you are right that Muslims are violent and will kill any of its critics... are there only two Muslims in France to "avenge the Prophet"?


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Let's assume that we're Arabs living in the ME...
> ……...
> Heck, I read before that even after WW2, most Germans still admire Hitler and were abusive to the children of that Colonel that tried to assassinate him (played by Tom Cruise in Valkyrie).




Iuutzu, you have stumped me with this. I can't figure out how it connects with the thread topic and the flow of our discussion thus far.  So I think I will call it a night for now.
Once again, thanks for the discussion. I don't expect us to ever reach any kind of agreement but the discussion is on the record and visitors to this thread will be able to draw their own conclusions.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Sell books and get paid interviews.




Ali Sina's book can be bought but a pdf version is also available for free if you cannot get access to the paper copies or you cannot afford to buy them.


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> No. Please let’s try to keep to the subject of this thread, which is Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's wrong.


http://www.islamawareness.net/Jihad/jihad_article001.html
"*Justifications and Conditions for War*

War may become necessary only to stop evil from triumphing in a way that would corrupt the earth (2:251). For Muslims to participate in war there must be valid justifications and strict conditions must be fulfilled. A thorough survey of the relevant verses of the Qur’an shows that it is consistent throughout with regard to these rulings on the justification of war, and its conduct, termination and consequences.

War in Islam as regulated by the Qur’an and hadith has been subject to many distortions by Western scholars and even by some Muslim writers. These are due either to misconceptions about terminology or – above all – using quotations taken out of context.[2] *Nowhere in the Qur’an is changing people’s religion given as a cause for waging war. The Qur’an gives a clear instruction that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). It states that people will remain different (11:118), they will always have different religions and ways and this is an unalterable fact (5:48). God tells the Prophet that most people will not believe, ‘however eagerly you may want them to’ (12:103)[3]* .........


------


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Iuutzu, you have stumped me with this. I can't figure out how it connects with the thread topic and the flow of our discussion thus far.  So I think I will call it a night for now.
> Once again, thanks for the discussion. I don't expect us to ever reach any kind of agreement but the discussion is on the record and visitors to this thread will be able to draw their own conclusions.




Trying to say that good and evil, as much as we like to think it's an objective fact, is a relative term... especially when it comes to war and peace.

"Thou shall not kill". Leave it at that.

To kill then say but... but the deserve it, but they started it... we're kidding ourselves saying we kill for good while they kill for evil. That apply to all sides.


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## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> That's wrong.
> 
> 
> http://www.islamawareness.net/Jihad/jihad_article001.html
> ...



Wow oh Wow …. I will leave this for tomorrow as I am very tired but I will not let *blatant taqiyyah* go unanswered.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> "*Justifications and Conditions for War*
> War in Islam as regulated by the Qur’an and hadith has been subject to many distortions by Western scholars and even by some Muslim writers. These are due either to misconceptions about terminology or – above all – using quotations taken out of context.[2] *Nowhere in the Qur’an is changing people’s religion given as a cause for waging war. The Qur’an gives a clear instruction that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). It states that people will remain different (11:118), they will always have different religions and ways and this is an unalterable fact (5:48). God tells the Prophet that most people will not believe, ‘however eagerly you may want them to’ (12:103)[3]*




*All* of this is false and deceptive because of the Koran’s principle of “Abrogration” and a trick used by Islamic scholars to deceive non-muslims (as permitted by taqiyya).  Unfortunately, to explain this requires a fairly lengthy post but I hope you will persevere and read it:

The Koran is divided by scholars into two parts; the Koran of Mecca and the Koran of Medina.  The common deception that Muslims use on non-muslims is to point to non-violent quotes from the Meccan Koran, *but fail to point out that these verses have been abrogated (see below**) by later violent ones from the Medina Koran. *

***Abrogation*:  The Koran is not anything like the Bible.  Firstly, it is not written in chronological order. Instead, its chapters are arranged by length, with the longest first and the shortest last in order to make it easier to memorize. On its own, this would probably be confusing enough. To make things even more confusing however, earlier verses are cancelled out, or “abrogated” by later ones.

The Koran was claimed by Mohammed, to be the verbatim Word of God.  However, it became clear to Muhammed’s followers, that different parts of the Koran contradicted each other. When questioned about this, Mohammed brought forth a new verse:

_Quran 2:106 Whatever of Our revelations we repeal or cause to be forgotten, we will replace with something superior or comparable. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?_

Consequently, Since the Koran is not written in chronological order, and since later verses cancel earlier ones, it is impossible to understand its meaning without knowing the order in which it was written and which verses have been abrogated. To do this you have to read it in conjunction with the other Islamic sacred texts, The Sira and the hadith. *This is a secret that is guarded by Islamic scholars very closely as if it were a holy grail.*

So now for an example, let’s refer back to Iuutzu’s post which claims that there is *“no compulsion in religion”* according to verse Quran 2:256. This was an early Mecca verse which was abrogated (cancelled) by a later Medina verse known as the *“Verse of the Sword”*, i.e.

_Quran 9:5  *“Kill the infidels wherever you find them.*” _

And also 

_Quran 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger [Muhammad] have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth [Islam], out of those who have been given the Book [Christian and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection [this subjection is a source of Islamic law's institution of dhimmitude, i.e., third-class legal status for non-Muslims]._


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## dutchie (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Leave the kids out of your craziness.
> 
> Trust me, they don't need your help if it's in this way.







Sexually enslaving kids: A Muslim-world problem
If you thought the terrible sex-slave scandal in the English city of Rotherham was an exception you'd be sadly wrong. Muslim groups all over the world have been committing similar atrocities, ignored by mainstream media
Muslim_sex_slavery
She's not alone
Raymond_ibrahim_latest
Raymond Ibrahim
On 13 September 2014 08:26


As shocking as the Muslim-run sex ring in Rotherham, England, may seem to some””1,400 British children as young as 11 plied with drugs before being passed around and sexually abused in cabs and kabob shops””the fact is that this phenomenon is immensely widespread. In the United Kingdom alone, it’s the fifth sex abuse ring led by Muslim gangs to be uncovered.

Some years back in Australia, a group of “Lebanese Muslim youths” were responsible for a “series of brutal gang rapes” of “Anglo-Celtic teenage girls.” A few years later in the same country, four Muslim Pakistani brothers raped at least 18 Australian women, some as young as 13.  

Even in the United States, a gang of Somalis””Somalia being a Muslim nation where non-Muslims, primarily Christians, are ruthlessly persecuted””was responsible for abducting, buying, selling, raping and torturing young American girls as young as 12.

The question begs itself: If Muslim minorities have no fear of exploiting “infidel” women and children in non-Muslim countries””that is, where Muslims themselves are potentially vulnerable minorities””how are Muslims throughout the Islamic world, where they are dominant, treating their vulnerable, non-Muslim minorities?

The answer is a centuries-long, continents-wide account of nonstop sexual predation. Boko Haram’s recent abduction and enslavement of nearly 300, mostly Christian, schoolgirls last April in Nigeria is but the tip of the iceberg.

The difference between what happens in Nigeria and what happens in Western nations is based on what I call “Islam’s Rule of Numbers.”  Wherever Muslims grow in numbers, Islamic phenomena intrinsic to the Muslim world””in this case, the sexual abuse of “infidel” children and teenagers””comes along with them.

Thus in the United Kingdom, where Muslims make for a sizeable””and notable””minority, the systematic rape of “subhuman infidels” naturally takes place. But when caught, Muslim minorities, being under “infidel” authority, cry “Islamophobia” and feign innocence.

In Nigeria, however, which is roughly 50 percent Islamic, such “apologetics” are unnecessary. After seizing the nearly 300 schoolgirls, the leader of Boko Haram appeared on videotape boasting that “I abducted your girls. I will sell them on the market, by Allah….  There is a market for selling humans. Allah says I should sell.”

It’s the same in Pakistan””the nation where many of the United Kingdom’s Muslims, including the majority involved in the Rotherham sex ring, come from. See this article for a long list of Christian children””as young as 2-years-old””who were targeted by Muslim men for abduction, enslavement, and rape. In every single case, police do nothing except sometimes side with the rapists against their “infidel” victims.

For example, last Easter Sunday, four Muslim men gang-raped a 7-year-old Christian girl named Sara, leaving her in “critical condition.”  According to Asia News, “the police, instead of arresting the culprits, helped the local clan to kidnap the girl’s father… to ‘force the family not to report the story, to reach an agreement with the criminals and to avoid a dispute of a religious background.’”

As for systematic child grooming, in 2010, Kiran George, a Christian girl who was “enslaved by a woman, Sama, a dealer of youth to be sold as prostitutes or slaves to wealthy Muslim families,” was doused with gasoline by a police officer involved in the sex ring, set on fire, and burned to death.

And a recent report confirms that “an estimated 700 cases [of abduction, enslavement, and/or rape in Pakistan] per year involve Christian women, 300 Hindu girls”””very large numbers when one considers that Christians and Hindus each make for one percent of the population of Pakistan, which is about 97 percent Muslim.

One can go on and on.  In 2011 a Christian group in Muslim-majority Egypt,

"exposed a highly organized Muslim ring centered in the Fatah Mosque in Alexandria. The investigation also uncovered a systematic “religious call” plan, where young Muslim males in high school and university are urged to approach Coptic girls in the 9-15 age group and manipulate them through sexual exploitation and blackmail. The plan … aims at sexually compromising Christian girls, defiling them and humiliating them in front of their parents, thereby forcing them to flee their homes, and use conversion to Islam as a “solution” for their problems."

Approximately 550 Coptic Christian girls have been abducted and sexually abused by Muslim men during the last three years””especially under the Muslim Brotherhood’s aegis, when sexual crimes were particularly widespread.

So what animates this phenomenon of Muslim on non-Muslim rape? And we must call it Muslim rape since Islam is the common denominator in all these cases from otherwise diverse nations that have little in common except for large numbers of Muslims.

As for the pedophilia aspect, Muhammad””the prophet of Islam whom the Koran exhorts Muslims to emulate in every possible way””was “betrothed” to a six-year-old girl, Aisha, “consummating” their marriage when she was nine-years-old.  Accordingly, Islam’s clerics routinely defend child “marriage”””sometimes even if the girl is still in the cradle””based on the example of the prophet.

As for the subhuman treatment of “infidel” children, this is seen as a right by supremacist Muslims. Discussing the 2010 rape of a 9-year-old Christian girl, local sources in Pakistan put it well: “It is shameful. Such incidents occur frequently. Christian girls are considered goods to be damaged at leisure. Abusing them is a right. According to the [Muslim] community’s mentality it is not even a crime. Muslims regard them as spoils of war.”

“Spoils of war” is quite correct. Here is how the late Majid Khadduri, “internationally recognized as one of the world’s leading authorities on Islamic law and jurisprudence,” explained the idea of “spoils” in his War and Peace in the Law of Islam:

"The term spoil (ghanima) is applied specifically to property acquired by force from non-Muslims. It includes, however, not only property (movable and immovable) but also persons, whether in the capacity of asra (prisoners of war) or sabi (women and children). … If the slave were a woman, the master was permitted to have sexual connection with her as a concubine."

Nor is this limited to academic talk.  Last year, Jordanian Sheikh Yasir al-‘Ajlawni  said Muslims fighting to topple “infidel” president Bashar Assad in Syria are permitted to “capture and have sex with” all non-Sunni women, including Shia Muslims, Alawites, Christians, Druze, and Yazidis.

Before him, Egyptian Sheikh Ishaq Huwaini lamented how during the heydays of Islam, “You [could] go to the market and buy her [enslaved, infidel concubines for sale]….  In other words, when I want a sex-slave, I go to the market and pick whichever female I desire and buy her.”

In order to eliminate sexual immorality from among male Muslim youth, Kuwaiti political activist Salwa al-Mutairi suggested the formal reinstitution of sex-slavery””not unlike what was recently exposed in Rotherham.  She said on video that Islam’s greatest authorities from Mecca, the city of Islam, all confirmed the legality of sex-slavery to her.  According to the Kuwaiti woman:

"A Muslim state must [first] attack a Christian state””sorry, I mean any non-Muslim state””and they [the women, the future sex-slaves] must be captives of the raid. Is this forbidden? Not at all; according to Islam, sex slaves are not at all forbidden. Quite the contrary, the rules regulating sex-slaves differ from those for free women [i.e., Muslim women]: the latter’s body must be covered entirely, except for her face and hands, whereas the sex-slave is kept naked from the bellybutton on up””she is different from the free woman; the free woman has to be married properly to her husband, but the sex-slave””he just buys her and that’s that….  For example, in the Chechnya war, surely there are female Russian captives. So go and buy those and sell them here in Kuwait; better that than have our men engage in forbidden sexual relations. I don’t see any problem in this, no problem at all."

What happened in Rotherham is hardly an aberration.

Rather, it is Islam coming to town, Muslims growing in numbers. Even Dr. Taj Hargey, a British imam, just confirmed that the majority of the UK’s “imams promote grooming rings.”  He said Muslim men are taught that women are “second-class citizens, little more than chattels or possessions over whom they have absolute authority” and that the imams preach a doctrine “that denigrates all women, but treats whites with particular contempt.”

Change “whites” to “non-Muslims”””this is not about race but religion””and the experiences of those 1,400 children in Rotherham is one with the experiences of countless non-Muslim minorities throughout the Islamic world.

This article was also submitted to  Front Page Magazine. Raymond Ibrahim is author of Crucified Again: Exposing Islam’s New War on Christians. He is a media fellow of the Hoover Institution


*Your right luutzu, those women and children don't need my help - they can take care of themselves!*




I oppose the exploitation and abuse of children by *any* religious group and *any* individual/instituition.


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## luutzu (25 January 2015)

dutchie said:


> Sexually enslaving kids: A Muslim-world problem
> If you thought the terrible sex-slave scandal in the English city of Rotherham was an exception you'd be sadly wrong. Muslim groups all over the world have been committing similar atrocities, ignored by mainstream media
> Muslim_sex_slavery
> She's not alone
> ...




Do I need to say that i find that wrong and disgusting?
Of course it is.


I've recently heard that the UK police is looking into allegations of sex slave/under-age sex ring some of the elite English Lords and politicians set up in England - dating back to the 70s or something.

If that were to be true, do we blame English blood? Or Christianity? Or Politicians? What group do we blame for that? How about just call them sick, morally bankrupt criminals and hope the law will deal with them and not blame an entire group for the crimes of others?

-----------

It's quite amazing the lessons western war planners learn from Vietnam. 

*Lesson one: *
No drafts; completely volunteered army. So if you are too poor and too young to know better and go fight for freedom and democracy but see things differently.. .and then get injured or killed... Well you volunteered. And how many rich kids volunteered? Not enough that their parents would exert influence money can buy to change policy.

*Lesson Two:*
Show respect for the dead.
Don't show the blood or the killing - unless it's done by the enemy.
So all we see, unless we go on some illegal website and look for them, are evil terrorists doing barbaric acts while our drones just blow grainy flash of lights and smoke - all in black and white like it was during the heroic war against tyranny.

*Lesson Three:*
Control the media.
If crimes are committed by an Arab, it's act of terrorism;
If they do it, it's terrorism; if we do it it's counter-terrorism.


Results?

Some 2.5 to 3.5 million, that's million, Iraqis died since our failed search for WMD in 2003. 
No WMD but millions Iraqis dead... and we all know it's probably is for oil/booty... and we as a people seems OK with that.

We in fact group all Iraqis as either terrorists or brothers of terrorists, so it's OK to kill.
We then see Islam as the problem, as evil.
And any heinous crimes committed by any Muslim around the world... that just proves Islam being evil; any act we commit, even not as a respond to those crimes, are perfectly justifiable... because they are all the same so what difference is it to kill them in Iraq or anywhere else, right?

------------

So if you really care for your children's future, care for our citizen's well being... look closely at our govt's policies and its consequences. These domestic and foreign policies have very little to do with Islam or Muslims or migrants or refugees.

Are we safer since 911? Keep doing the same thing, but in different countries, would that make us safer?

I've heard that Julia Bishop have gone to Washington and agree that terrorism is really really bad and much worst now, and that Australia is looking to expand its contribution to bringing peace to mankind.

The $500 million set aside last september is going to need a fresh injection soon... this time it might be much more than that estimate. And we as a people will be OK with that, because with a couple of billions over the next couple of years on foreign adventures, and another couple of billions for the AFP and ASIO, we'll be safer and protected... 

What is healthcare or education for our elderly and our young when security is at risk.


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## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> *All* of this is false and deceptive because of the Koran’s principle of “Abrogration” and a trick used by Islamic scholars to deceive non-muslims (as permitted by taqiyya).  Unfortunately, to explain this requires a fairly lengthy post but I hope you will persevere and read it:
> 
> The Koran is divided by scholars into two parts; the Koran of Mecca and the Koran of Medina.  The common deception that Muslims use on non-muslims is to point to non-violent quotes from the Meccan Koran, *but fail to point out that these verses have been abrogated (see below**) by later violent ones from the Medina Koran. *
> 
> ...




OK, you got me... Islam, unlike other good religion, is nasty.

So what's your solution? Get rid of Muslims and breed out Islam?


Ey, there's a country that's doing something like that. Look to Israel. Those guys know how to deal with Muslims, Islam and all thing terrorists. They even made a religion a state thing too.

I guess you probably can't live there because your blood is not J+ as Blumenthal said... but if we re-enact that in Australia, you will definitely be welcomed and what's more our country will be as peaceful and our domestic lives will be as blissful as it is in Israel.


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## bunyip (25 January 2015)

Pity every Muslim doesn't have the courage and common sense of the bloke in this video.

This should be shown in every mosque in every country that's opened its doors to Muslims......not that I think many of them would take any notice.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=794512987269573


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## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> OK, you got me... Islam, unlike other good religion, is nasty.
> So what's your solution? Get rid of Muslims and breed out Islam?




There are three ways, one is good, one is bad and the other is ugly:

*The good way* to stop Islam is to spread the truth about it. Islam is a giant edifice erected on lies and it cannot withstand the truth. If the truth is spread about Muhammad’s life of crime and violence Islam will start to crumble. (Remember the duty of all muslims is to emulate the life of Muhammad)

*The second option is bad.* It is to deport all Muslims back to their country of origin. It does not matter if they are the second or third generation immigrants. Muslims do not see themselves as citizens of any non-Muslim country and their allegiance is not and cannot be to a country that is not controlled by them. If they tell you otherwise they are lying. They would be going against the Quran 9:23 that says Muslims should not accept the guardianship, i.e. the rule of the unbelievers. Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God and the Quran says, “We made you an exalted nation, that you may be guardians over the people.” (2:143) The only status that is acceptable to Muslims is that they should rule over others while others are reduced into dhimmis, second class citizens who would work and support their Muslim masters.

*The third option is ugly* but *it consists in doing what Muslims do to others*, and giving them a taste from their own holy book, i.e., “to cast terror in their hearts.” (Q. 8:12; 3:151). Treat Muslims the way they treat non-Muslims wherever they are the majority.  Since they ban the practice and preaching of other religions in Islamic countries, ban the practice and preaching of Islam in non-Muslim countries.  Make life unbearable for them, just as they make it unbearable for non-Muslims wherever they are in power. Muslims are still a minority in the west. Once they perceive that their lives are in danger, they will leave on their own accord, just as millions of Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Bahais and Hindus have left their ancestral homelands because Muslims made life unbearable for them.


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## Bintang (25 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Pity every Muslim doesn't have the courage and common sense of the bloke in this video.
> 
> This should be shown in every mosque in every country that's opened its doors to Muslims......not that I think many of them would take any notice.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=794512987269573




Brilliant and extremely brave.
Some *will* very definitely take notice. They are the ones who will now try to kill this guy.


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## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> So what's your solution? Get rid of Muslims and breed out Islam?






Bintang said:


> There are three ways, one is good, one is bad and the other is ugly.




In April last year the Central African Republic did it in the *bad* and *ugly* way.

From the Wall Street Journal: Muslims Flee Central African Republic Capital

_"For decades, this former French colony appeared to be a model of religious tolerance in Africa, a continent home to roughly 400 million Muslims and 500 million Christians. Central African Republic sits along the line where the two groups meet and, in more peaceful times, trade with and marry one another.

That harmony has been shattered here. Muslim rebels seized the capital last year, followed by waves of rape and murder. French peacekeepers arrived in December, emboldening local *Christians, who took justice into their own hands.*

Now this nation is the scene of violence against Muslims. Some 2,000 Muslims in January fled to the last settlement on the road leaving the capital. Most said they have lost loved ones or saw the villages they left behind burned."_


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> There are three ways, one is good, one is bad and the other is ugly:
> 
> *The good way* to stop Islam is to spread the truth about it. Islam is a giant edifice erected on lies and it cannot withstand the truth. If the truth is spread about Muhammad’s life of crime and violence Islam will start to crumble. (Remember the duty of all muslims is to emulate the life of Muhammad)
> 
> ...




1. As I've said, Muslims, like all other people of all other races and religion, does not look upon the murder and annexation of other people's land as a crime. Just like the celebration of Columbus Day in the USA, Australia Day tomorrow. Just like Julius Caesar was celebrated for putting 1/3 of the Gauls to death... Napoleon, Genghis Khan etc. etc.

That is not to say that we, or them Muslims, are proud of the murder or genocide... just we explain it away. Terra Nullius, doing God's work and civilise savages, they kill because they have to etc. etc.

Just like your third solution - we ought to do ugly things because they deserve it, because they have done it to others and to us and so we have to do what must be done.

So if taking on 1.4 to 1.6 billion people is your answer to peace... that's quite some peace.



2. What?

You reckon Muslims are all one entity, all united and all brothers or something?

You know how many Americans were willing to join WW2 to help Britain? Not many. 
Congress and their politicians and most of the people... they all say leave Europe alone, it's their war, we don't want to send our children or spend our resources fighting their wars.

The only reason FDR managed to convince Congress/Senate to lend Britain weapons and food and supplies was he told them doing so will keep Hitler busy, will mean the US won't have to go to war.

Most Americans were from England right? Their ancestors were European? English, French... And was blood and religion thicker than life and money?

And the only reason the US joined in was Pearl Harbor.

People are not as united as you'd like to think; and they are at the same time more united than you give them credit for.


But then yea, if we ever go to war with Ireland, or with Japan again, or with China or India... or with Britain... Are we going to start sending those Australians whose ancestors came from those countries packing too?



3. Mate, I haven't heard of any Jewish Holocaust committed by Arabs against Jews. Have you?


Let's not bring peace and stand for justice by waging war and first committing violence against those we think would commit senseless violence on us.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Let's not bring peace and stand for justice by waging war and first committing violence against those we think would commit senseless violence on us.




Iuutzu, you asked me for some solutions and I have outlined 3 possible ways.
I advocate the good way and am practising it in my debate with you.

The other two ways will be advocated and enacted by other people - as already demonstated in Central African Republican – a place where the rule of law was already weak and which made it possible for lawless ‘Christians’ to do what they did.  Obviously I am not condoning their violent behavior.  However, it is a taste of the sort of thing that could spread elsewhere if attempts to solve the problem the ‘good’ way are stifled.

This is why the protection of our freedom of speech is so vital.  It’s the only peaceful option open to us but I believe it is a very powerful option. 

Unfortunately we have a political class who are running scared. I think most of them who publicly claim that “Islam is a religion of Peace” are lying. They are in the public arena and will often be physically at risk so they act cowardly. In other words, Islam has already terrorized them into partial submission.

But if this continues it will have undesired consequences. By behaving cowardly the political class is failing to give the more right wing element a voice for their concerns and are not offering them any solutions. This is already breeding a great deal of resentment. Hence there are groups like the English Defence League in the UK and PEGIDA in Europe.


----------



## Boggo (25 January 2015)

So we have Tony Abbott publicly denouncing IS for the cowardly execution of an innocent Japanese citizen while the Australian Flag on Parliament House flies at half mast to mourn the death of a Saudi king who enforces sharia law and is a sympathiser and financier of middle east terrorism.

Something not right with this, especially on the eve of Australia Day.

Will it be in in its rightful position tomorrow ?


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

Boggo said:


> So we have Tony Abbott publicly denouncing IS for the cowardly execution of an innocent Japanese citizen while the Australian Flag on Parliament House flies at half mast to mourn the death of a Saudi king who enforces sharia law and is a sympathiser and financier of middle east terrorism.
> 
> Something not right with this, especially on the eve of Australia Day.
> 
> Will it be in in its rightful position tomorrow ?




This sycophantic behavior of our Government and other Western Governments is no surprise. 

Something I am really interested to know is whether the *Chinese* are flying their flags at half mast.  Does anyone know?


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

Here is a recent video explaining Islam's 3 stages of Jihad. The creator of the video has already received death threats.
Apparently it's not just offensive cartoonists that must be killed it is anyone who speaks the truth about Islam.


----------



## bunyip (25 January 2015)

I was just watching the ‘Australian Of The Year’ awards on TV. One of the nominees for ‘Young Australian of The Year’ was a young woman whose name I didn’t catch. Her head was covered so I presume she’s a Muslim.
One of the things she said when interviewed was _“This place (Australia) is just so damn awesome that we want everyone to come here.”_

This sort of thinking poses one hell of a risk to the security of our country, our freedoms and our way of life. I wonder if she’s ever seriously considered how much a place changes for the worse when you start bringing ‘everyone’ in regardless of their culture, values and religion, and most of all their compatibility.
When she has a few more decades of life experience under her belt she might start to realize that inviting all and sundry to share in something good is often a sure path to stuffing it up.
We’re seeing examples of this all over the world right now. Is Lakemba in Sydney better or worse now that the Muslims have discovered it and have moved in and taken over? Ask people from Holland, Germany, France, Spain, Britain, and dozens of other countries if things are better or worse for them since they opened their doors to mass immigration from Islamic countries.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> One of the things she said when interviewed was _“This place (Australia) is just so damn awesome that we want everyone to come here.”_
> 
> This sort of thinking poses one hell of a risk to the security of our country, our freedoms and our way of life. I wonder if she’s ever seriously considered how much a place changes for the worse when you start bringing ‘everyone’ in regardless of their culture, values and religion, and most of all their compatibility.




Bunyip, she is in *stage zero* of the three stage process of Islamic Jihad. Stage zero means – *totally clueless*. If you are curious to know what I am talking about the video I posted in post #456 will explain – but you will need to watch it right through to the end. The video is actually quite entertaining. It includes some great sound-bites from President Obama.


----------



## bunyip (25 January 2015)

Boggo said:


> So we have Tony Abbott publicly denouncing IS for the cowardly execution of an innocent Japanese citizen while the Australian Flag on Parliament House flies at half mast to mourn the death of a Saudi king who enforces sharia law and is a sympathiser and financier of middle east terrorism.
> 
> Something not right with this, especially on the eve of Australia Day.
> 
> Will it be in in its rightful position tomorrow ?



Yes, that does seem to be pretty damn silly and hypocritical doesn’t it. 
The last thing we should be doing is flying our flag at half mast as a mark of respect to a piece of vermin with the appalling human rights record of the Saudi king. 

Reminds me of the time that grubby little Vietnamese/Australian drug trafficker Van Nguyen was executed in Singapore.
What did the Queensland government do at the exact moment he was hanged....they halted the Queensland parliament for a minutes silence as a mark of respect for Nguyen.
I could never work out why a mass murdering drug trafficker was worthy of any respect.
Sometimes the actions of our politicians defy logic.


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> Yes, that does seem to be pretty damn silly and hypocritical doesn’t it.
> The last thing we should be doing is flying our flag at half mast as a mark of respect to a piece of vermin with the appalling human rights record of the Saudi king.
> 
> Reminds me of the time that grubby little Vietnamese/Australian drug trafficker Van Nguyen was executed in Singapore.
> ...




From memory, Van Nguyen was mulling the drugs for the first time and doing it because his younger or older brother owes money to gangsters and drug dealers and if he could get it across they'd forgive the debt. Anyway... 

The Saudi King... how do you think we dealt the Evil Empire USSR one last knockout blow in the 90s? How we're doing it now with record low oil prices to really stuff Russia's economy in addition to the sanctions?


Should watch George Clooney's Syriana - it's based on former CIA ME operative's (Baer?) book "See no evil, Hear no evil".


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> I was just watching the ‘Australian Of The Year’ awards on TV. One of the nominees for ‘Young Australian of The Year’ was a young woman whose name I didn’t catch. Her head was covered so I presume she’s a Muslim.
> One of the things she said when interviewed was _“This place (Australia) is just so damn awesome that we want everyone to come here.”_
> 
> This sort of thinking poses one hell of a risk to the security of our country, our freedoms and our way of life. I wonder if she’s ever seriously considered how much a place changes for the worse when you start bringing ‘everyone’ in regardless of their culture, values and religion, and most of all their compatibility.
> ...




Beside the helicopters hovering and passing by every time there's some terrorist threat in recent months, seems like any normal suburb to me. 

That and the speed limits are in Arabic numerals.

But yea, too many Muslims here... a bit like too many Italians on Norton Street in St Peters or something, or too many Koreans in nearby Campsie, and forget about Cabramatta.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

Masab Yousef Son of the Leader of Hamas is an ex-Muslim.
In this video he speaks out against islam and calls the Allah of Islam a gangster.


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

*According to the interviewee in this video, if you are not a muslim you are guilty and deserve to be killed.*


----------



## luutzu (25 January 2015)

Link to PBS documentary on Islam. Narrated by Ben Kingsley.

Document the birth and rise of Muhammad, the contributions and whatnot of Islam.


----------



## bunyip (26 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> However, the Saudis who are mostly Sunni muslims are threatened externally by their Shia cousins such as those over the border in Iran. The hatred and bitterness between Sunnis and Shias goes right back to the immediate aftermath of Mohammed’s death.




And they bring their hatred of each other with them when them emigrate to new countries – what’s happening in places like Sydney proves it. These clowns have been at each others throats for centuries, no way are they going to wipe the slate clean and make a fresh start when they come to Australia. They don’t want to get on with each other, they don’t want to get on with the people of the country that was decent (or foolish) enough to take them in.
Supposedly they emigrate to escape the problems in their home countries, then in their new country they set about recreating the problems that made life so unbearable for them back home. In the process they not only stuff up their own lives all over again, they also stuff up the country that took them in. 
It just doesn't get any dumber than that!

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/a-punch-a...med-bankstown-altercation-20130905-2t6yt.html


----------



## bunyip (26 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> And they bring their hatred of each other with them when them emigrate to new countries – what’s happening in places like Sydney proves it. These clowns have been at each others throats for centuries, no way are they going to wipe the slate clean and make a fresh start when they come to Australia.




http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/syrian-war-triggers-sydney-trouble-20130629-2p3vn.html


----------



## Bintang (26 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> And they bring their hatred of each other with them when them emigrate to new countries – what’s happening in places like Sydney proves it. These clowns have been at each others throats for centuries, no way are they going to wipe the slate clean and make a fresh start when they come to Australia. They don’t want to get on with each other, they don’t want to get on with the people of the country that was decent (or foolish) enough to take them in.




The book ‘Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat’, explains the progressive stages of  Islamization of non-muslim countries throughout history and states that when a population reaches *100% muslim* it is supposed to usher in the *peace* of 'Dar-al-Salaam', i.e. the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a muslim, the Madrassas are the only schools, and the Koran is the only “Word”, for example as in the countries of: 
Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Yemen

_"However,  real peace is never achieved, as in these 100% muslim states the most radical muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical muslims, for a variety of reasons."_

It looks like that even before they get to 100% of a country’s population they will start fighting amongst themselves when there is a high enough concentration of them in a particular locality.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 January 2015)

> "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy,
> 
> which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
> 
> ...





Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition, Vol II, pages 248-250 London). [1899]

Churchill saw it coming.


----------



## luutzu (26 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> The book ‘Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat’, explains the progressive stages of  Islamization of non-muslim countries throughout history and states that when a population reaches *100% muslim* it is supposed to usher in the *peace* of 'Dar-al-Salaam', i.e. the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a muslim, the Madrassas are the only schools, and the Koran is the only “Word”, for example as in the countries of:
> Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Yemen
> 
> _"However,  real peace is never achieved, as in these 100% muslim states the most radical muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical muslims, for a variety of reasons."_
> ...





I guess you guys didn't bother to watch that documentary on Islam.

From that documentary, the only instance where a Muslim ruler ever commit a racial or religious crime was one Egyptian caliph some 200 years after Muhammad - he burnt that important Church in Jerusalem.

The historians and scholars there have said that throughout its history, from its founding, Islam never force conversion, it permit the religious and cultural practices of those under its rule - like not killing Jews and Christians and forcing them to convert - though I heard elsewhere that in some regions they did offer tax incentives for Muslims and charge higher taxes for infidels.

When Muhammad returned to Mecca, having not been killed by the Meccan warlords and clans that tried to get rid of him and Islam for the past few years - he did not kill or murder or rape and pillage as was the norm; he forgive... Yes, he got rid of all the various tribal gods and idols, got rid of the priesthoods within the Arab tribes - just like Moses right? So you can argue that that's intolerant... but not exactly bloodlust, Ivan the terrible kinda crazies right?

If you bothered to watch part 2 or 3, you will see that maybe Islam is more enlightened than Christianity. An example is that Islam does not see the contradiction of worshipping God/Allah with scientific enquiries and innovation. Hence the establishment of universities, of hospitals, of healing the sick through medicine and not prayers; the studies or human anatomy - a reference book that became standard for 500 years after publication throughout ME and Europe; pioneers in surgery; cured cataract 1000 years before the West etc. etc.

Anyway... I'm sure that with the current wars on terror - expected to last 100 years, or maybe even forever according to Bush Jr.; that and there's some 1.6 billion Muslims in the world - I'm sure you will be able to find "evidence" of Islamic crimes and savagery on a weekly if not daily basis. So have fun.

So while you're at it, maybe type in "crazy [x]", with x being Christians or Jews or Blacks or Asians or Whites or college kids... and project those to represent their cohort... I think you will find the world a dark and sad, but funny, place full of idiots.


----------



## luutzu (26 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition, Vol II, pages 248-250 London). [1899]
> 
> Churchill saw it coming.




You'll love this:

*Sir Winston Churchill 's family feared he might convert to Islam*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11314580/Sir-Winston-Churchill-s-family-feared-he-might-convert-to-Islam.html



> But what may come as a surprise is that he was a strong admirer of Islam and the culture of the Orient ”” such was his regard for the Muslim faith that relatives feared he might convert.
> The revelation comes with the discovery of a letter to Churchill from his future sister-in-law, Lady Gwendoline Bertie, written in August 1907, in which she urges him to rein in his enthusiasm....
> 
> "she pleads: “Please don’t become converted to Islam; I have noticed in your disposition a tendency to orientalise [fascination with the Orient and Islam], Pasha-like tendencies, I really have.”





But maybe he was young and hadn't realised that his little country in the North Sea have done much better in a little over 400 years.


----------



## Bintang (26 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition, Vol II, pages 248-250 London). [1899] Churchill saw it coming.



*How times have changed.*

If Churchill were still alive and spoke those words today he would surely (by today's British standards) be labeled Islamophobic and even deserve to be kicked out of his own country.   

After all, American anti-Islam activist and author Robert Spencer was denied entry into the UK in 2013 for speech that a rational person could not regard as worse than the words of Churchill.

Spencer was told in a letter from the British Home Office: _“your presence here is not conducive to the public good.”  _The reason for this as stated by The Home Office’s letter was:

_“You are reported to have stated the following:
[Islam] is a religion and is a belief system that mandates warfare against unbelievers for the purpose for establishing a societal model that is absolutely incompatible with Western society because media and general government unwillingness to face the sources of Islamic terrorism these things remain largely unknown.”_

The Speech that Got Robert Spencer Banned From the UK

The Letter from the Home Office

However, just a few days before Spencer was banned an Islamic preacher named Al-Arefe was admitted into the UK to speak at a mosque in London.  Al-Arefe is the author of these words:

_"Devotion to jihad for the sake of Allah, and the desire to shed blood, to smash skulls, and to sever limbs for the sake of Allah and in defense of His religion, is, undoubtedly, an honor for the believer. Allah said that if a man fights the infidels, the infidels will be unable to prepare to fight"_ 

He also advocates wife-beatings: http://news.sky.com/story/1106292/preacher-who-backs-wife-beatings-let-into-uks

*How in hell could the British Home Office do this?  Maybe Allah knows the answer.*


----------



## Bintang (26 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> You'll love this:
> 
> *Sir Winston Churchill 's family feared he might convert to Islam*
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11314580/Sir-Winston-Churchill-s-family-feared-he-might-convert-to-Islam.html
> But maybe he was young and hadn't realised that his little country in the North Sea have done much better in a little over 400 years.




luutzu, the instant I read Rumpole's post I knew that you would respond with this ridiculous article.

As one commentator has said: *"I nominate this for stupidest, most deceptive article of 2015 so far"*

And that is the sum total of what needs to be said.


----------



## Bintang (26 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Churchill saw it coming.




*Sharia for Belgium* - Welcome to Belgistan


----------



## luutzu (26 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> luutzu, the instant I read Rumpole's post I knew that you would respond with this ridiculous article.
> 
> As one commentator has said: *"I nominate this for stupidest, most deceptive article of 2015 so far"*
> 
> And that is the sum total of what needs to be said.





I saw that Churchill quote before on this forum - from Julie.

Like I said then, there is a lot to admire about Churchill. He's a great leader and a fine scholar/historian... but he's not flawless. 

And like most or all of us, when it comes to our own country and people - it's not easy to be objective.

I mean, Europe was in the dark ages while Arabs, under Muhammad's Muslims was the light of the world. 
The Arabs were literally mapping the stars and developing the scientific methods and sciences while Christendom was praying to the bones of their saints and lashing themselves to purge away their sins.

So to see that, as Churchill must have since he's a fine scholar and student of history... and say that Islam is backwards and subjugate its followers... come on man.

Then seeing how the British Empire spreading all over the world; seeing Christendom converting or converted most of the known world... can a person be objective and say Islam is nasty because it always tries to convert and proselytize and subjugate people?


There is a lot to admire about Western civilisation, the West has and is making huge contributions to mankind... But to act as though the West is benign and all righteous while other religion and civilisations are backwards and harmful... that's a bit much.

"Empires wax and wane; States coalesces and fall asunder." - Romance of the Three Kingdoms


----------



## Bintang (26 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I guess you guys didn't bother to watch that documentary on Islam.




*You guessed wrong luutzu.*
Not only did I watch this video but I have watched and read many other sources of information.  Not surprisingly they exhibit differences. A useful way to make sense of the differences is to apply a technique called 'critical thinking'.

It’s a beautifully produced documentary and if one watched  it with eyes open but brain asleep I can see how it could bring misty tears to ones eyes.
However, it is significant for what it omits rather than what it embraces.

The video is made by the American PBS (Public Broadcasting Service) an organization that has received much criticism for its left-leaning political and ideological bias. Approximately 60% of its funding comes from private donations.  Could it be that sometimes the donations are made with strings attached? Oh, surely no. That would be shocking.


----------



## luutzu (26 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> *Sharia for Belgium* - Welcome to Belgistan





مرحبا، مرحبا بكم في بلجيكا
[use google translator:  https://translate.google.com.au/



Funny story, I remember reading that Churchill in fact carved out and created Belgium from France [?] so that no powerful state, like France, could be too close to Britain. He figured that a weak like, like Belgium, being close mean it needs British protection and come under its influence/alliance when another Napoleon or Hitler or Stalin come along.

We now see the domino falling.


----------



## luutzu (26 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> *You guessed wrong luutzu.*
> Not only did I watch this video but I have watched and read many other sources of information.  Not surprisingly they exhibit differences. A useful way to make sense of the differences is to apply a technique called 'critical thinking'.
> 
> It’s a beautifully produced documentary and if one watched  it with eyes open but brain asleep I can see how it could bring misty tears to ones eyes.
> ...





I don't know man, Ben Kingsley said so, must be so - that and a handful of historians and scholars.

Don't know... I'd take their words over some disgruntled former "followers" for objectivity any day.


----------



## Bintang (26 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> We now see the domino falling.




The dominoes are falling all over Europe - not just Belgium:

*Austrian Member of Parliament Goes Ballistic on Muslim Hypocrisy*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...-ts=1421914688&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=E5eP2BDfL-s

*Swiss Member of Parliament Has Had Enough!*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...-ts=1421914688&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=pCW2hxux3Ro


----------



## Bintang (26 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I don't know man, Ben Kingsley said so, must be so - that and a handful of historians and scholars.




I did not say that what Ben Kingsley said *is not so*. 
But everything he didn't say *is so* also.

The question that needs to be asked is, Why is it so?


----------



## luutzu (26 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> The dominoes are falling all over Europe - not just Belgium:
> 
> *Austrian Member of Parliament Goes Ballistic on Muslim Hypocrisy*
> 
> ...




Beside Muslims, refugees and migrants... the problems in Europe could be due to enforced, non-Keynesian successful-then-but-not-useful-now "austerity measures" required by those.. .German! and French! Brought on by rampant financial speculations that lost some trillions of dollars by... mostly English and Americans bankers!

But you know, Muslims, refugees and migrants really really did it.

Anyway... as a young Ozzyman on YouTube once said, hating 1.6 billion people is "...too f'en much". OK OK, you don't hate them Muslims, just the "religion" that enslaves them and teach them hatred. Still a bit much though.


----------



## luutzu (26 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> I did not say that what Ben Kingsley said *is not so*.
> But everything he didn't say *is so* also.




There is a lot of ugliness in every religion, race, people... the world is not going to improve on that by any of us or any of them thinking an entire group is all this or that, then casually listing that three solutions you read somewhere... and forget about the final solution some clown with a short moustache ordered not so long ago in Europe - on an entire people!


----------



## luutzu (27 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> I did not say that what Ben Kingsley said *is not so*.
> But everything he didn't say *is so* also.
> 
> The question that needs to be asked is, Why is it so?




Yes, ask that. Why is it that they hate us so?

Hate our democratic values? Hate us educating our women and daughters? Seriously? 

Who in their right mind would want a dictator ruling over them? Who would want to see a bunch of self-appointed Kings and Generals commanding over them with impunity?

Man, we here already do not like them and their kind when none of their masked soldiers and utes are here (maybe a few recent recruits)... and we hate their guts, we call them all sort of names.... Yet we think they ought to like us when our planes and drones are over their skies, our boots and snipers and tanks and humvees are all over their oil.


By all mean ask, but as Jack Nicholson said to Tom Cruise - "you can't handle the truth!" [that sounds better that way than "can you handle the truth? can you, huh?"]


----------



## Bintang (27 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Man, *we* here already do not like them and their kind when none of their masked soldiers and utes are here (maybe a few recent recruits)... and *we* hate their guts, *we* call them all sort of names....




Who is *'we' *.

I am not part of your *'we'*.


----------



## Bintang (27 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> Man, *we* here already do not like them and their kind when none of their masked soldiers and utes are here (maybe a few recent recruits)... and we hate their guts, *we* call them all sort of names....






Bintang said:


> Who is *'we' *.
> 
> I am not part of your *'we'*.




I acknowledge though that some Australians have it in them  to be really intolerant and nasty towards muslims as the following video of a protest in Australia clearly demonstrates.  Far be it from me to say such hateful things:

*Muslims chanting:* _Burn in Hell, Burn in Hell_
*Atheists chanting:* _Where are the women, Where are the women_
*Muslims chanting:* _Repent to Allah, Repent to Allah_
*Atheists singing:* _Always look on the bright side of life, de de de de_
*Atheist fleeing the scene:* _I’m glad I live in Australia and not in your country_


----------



## luutzu (27 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> I acknowledge though that some Australians have it in them  to be really intolerant and nasty towards muslims as the following video of a protest in Australia clearly demonstrates.  Far be it from me to say such hateful things:
> 
> *Muslims chanting:* _Burn in Hell, Burn in Hell_
> *Atheists chanting:* _Where are the women, Where are the women_
> ...





I don't doubt that of you.

I don't think seemingly intolerant people or anti-Muslims as bad either. Not trying to be smart, I mean that.


If a person believe that the other is bad, is cruel, is not respectful of women and people's rights; believe that the other is here to harm their country and steal from them; if a person believe the other is taught to hate and kill innocents... It's not bad to then hate and find that wrong and be against them and their beliefs and practices.

OK, so maybe telling them to go be with Satan or do physical harm based on those beliefs is the wrong way about it, but the reasons behind those acts, with most people I think, is fair.

Just not all beliefs are true.


----------



## Bintang (27 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I don't doubt that of you.
> 
> Just not all beliefs are true.




Actually, I thought the muslim-atheist protest video was quite funny. Maybe Australia will be able to stem the tide of Islamization with its good old 'taking the mickey' sense of humour; just so long as they don't do it in the form of cartoons.

As for whether Islamic beliefs are true I found this video especially interesting:

*Female Egyptian TV host kicks female guest out of studio for questioning Islamic beliefs*



*I think that poor female guest is just suffering from having too much logic!*


----------



## bunyip (27 January 2015)

I really thought that after years of oppression under Suddam Hussein, Iraq would embrace democracy with open arms once Hussein was gone. In those days I didn’t understand that  Islam is a dictatorship that shuns democracy. Even the peaceful Muslims here in Australia are practicing a dictatorship to some extent. Forcing their women to cover up and to be subservient to men – that’s just part and parcel of the dictatorship of Islam. 
No Islamic country in the world is a true democracy, not even Indonesia although it’s closer to democracy that most other Muslim countries.
Just as Islam shuns democracy, we have to start shunning political parties that allow mass Islamic immigration to Australia. That rules out Labor and the Greens straight away – we saw what happened under six years of Labor/Greens government, 50 thousand illegal immigrants, most of them Muslims, flooded into our country.
Far from learning from their stupidity, Labor/Greens views in this matter have changed little since then. I’ve always considered that economic policy is the most important issue for government – create a strong and vibrant economy with low debt, and job opportunities and money for defence and education and health services will flow on from there. 
But if we have a government with policies that rapidly increase the rate at which Australia is being Islamized, then very soon our economy will be so completely wrecked that we’ll never recover. There’s no way in the world that we can have a strong and vibrant economy if we’re being ruled by the backward ideals and attitudes of Islam.


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## dutchie (27 January 2015)

The writing is on the wall.

The Islamisation of the world will create more havoc and deaths, well and truly, before there are any similar effects caused by climate change.

Europe, including GB, falling one by one ,will suffer initially and then it's just a matter of time.

The clear and present danger to the world is not climate change but Islam.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 January 2015)

dutchie said:


> The writing is on the wall.
> 
> The Islamisation of the world will create more havoc and deaths, well and truly, before there are any similar effects caused by climate change.
> 
> ...




One can only hope that our governments recognise the dangers of letting Islam get a foothold in this country and reduce immigration from Muslim countries.

I would not expect any outspoken anti Islam statements from politicians though, there is a case for not stirring up any trouble when you don't have to. Just keep it quiet and behind the scenes make it more difficult for anti Western democracy accolytes to come here and and spread their malevolence using our welfare money.


----------



## bunyip (27 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> One can only hope that our governments recognise the dangers of letting Islam get a foothold in this country and reduce immigration from Muslim countries.
> 
> I would not expect any outspoken anti Islam statements from politicians though, there is a case for not stirring up any trouble when you don't have to. Just keep it quiet and behind the scenes make it more difficult for anti Western democracy accolytes to come here and and spread their malevolence using our welfare money.




You’d better give Labor a miss from here on then Rumpy, and start voting LNP. Surely not even a diehard Labor man like you would dispute the fact that Tony Abbot leaves Labor for dead when it comes to slowing down the Islamization of Australia.
Rudd/Gillard & Co did exactly the opposite – they sped up the process by bringing in 50 thousand of them in just six years.  And don’t forget that it wasn’t Rudd & Gillard alone who formulated their disastrous open borders policy....the senior members of the current opposition - Shorten, Plibersek, Albanese, Bowen etc all had an input into the Rudd/Gillard policy of getting rid of Howards Pacific Solution, and effectively laying out the welcome mat to Muslims in their tens of thousands.
If you want a return to that disastrous policy, then just vote those ALP twits back into power at the next election. And don’t forget that they come with the baggage of Islam-loving Greens like Milne and Hanson-Young and a couple of other short-sighted fools who are too dumb to realize that their ‘_come one come all_’ policies will simply turn Australia into an Islamic state.


----------



## Tisme (27 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> You’d better give Labor a miss from here on then Rumpy, and start voting LNP. Surely not even a diehard Labor man like you would dispute the fact that Tony Abbot leaves Labor for dead when it comes to slowing down the Islamization of Australia.
> .




It's odd that for decades the Labor Party, like the other majors supported Western European and British ideals and zeal for social fairness, technology and science over primitive cultures and in return they never got elected into power (white Australia Policies). Now they support the great extinction of enlightened western culture in favour of mind numbing obedience to religious facism they still can't get a ticket to ride still!

If you were muslim here you would probably be better to vote LNP so that the trickle down hatred can be infused in your kids and their kids as the fifth column builds it's base. 

My solution to the spread of evil Islam is to have western technology limited to western idealogues and otherwise an abacus for those that do not share the western ideas of progress and individual freedoms (I guess Campbell Newman might have to lose his calculator and PC by that yardstick too).

First cab off the rank: pull the evil western internet plug on the Arabs everywhere and let them talk to each other via their proxy god prophet and an excuse for bad behaviour book. Second turn of the evil western invented electricity supplies. Thirdly the evil western television, radio, tanks, airplanes, cars, ships, the whole firken lot and finally give them a book on how to ride camels, set up tents in the deserts and how to buy and treat slaves.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> You’d better give Labor a miss from here on then Rumpy, and start voting LNP. Surely not even a diehard Labor man like you would dispute the fact that Tony Abbot leaves Labor for dead when it comes to slowing down the Islamization of Australia.
> Rudd/Gillard & Co did exactly the opposite – they sped up the process by bringing in 50 thousand of them in just six years.  And don’t forget that it wasn’t Rudd & Gillard alone who formulated their disastrous open borders policy....the senior members of the current opposition - Shorten, Plibersek, Albanese, Bowen etc all had an input into the Rudd/Gillard policy of getting rid of Howards Pacific Solution, and effectively laying out the welcome mat to Muslims in their tens of thousands.
> If you want a return to that disastrous policy, then just vote those ALP twits back into power at the next election. And don’t forget that they come with the baggage of Islam-loving Greens like Milne and Hanson-Young and a couple of other short-sighted fools who are too dumb to realize that their ‘_come one come all_’ policies will simply turn Australia into an Islamic state.




In the first place, how do you know how many of those refugees were Muslims ? Secondly I do give credit to the LNP for stopping the boats, but there are also regular migration programs (family reunion etc) that let in people from Muslim countries. I'd like to see some evidence that the Coalition is cracking down on those too.

As for Labor, there are certainly some wets there that need to be dried out, however I don't think that they will completely ignore the lessons from the Coalition's successful anti people smuggler policies. We'll have to wait and see on that as to whether the wets or dries prevail in the Labor party.


----------



## bunyip (27 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> In the first place, how do you know how many of those refugees were Muslims ? Secondly I do give credit to the LNP for stopping the boats, but there are also regular migration programs (family reunion etc) that let in people from Muslim countries. I'd like to see some evidence that the Coalition is cracking down on those too.
> 
> As for Labor, there are certainly some wets there that need to be dried out, however I don't think that they will completely ignore the lessons from the Coalition's successful anti people smuggler policies. We'll have to wait and see on that as to whether the wets or dries prevail in the Labor party.




The bulk of the 50 thousand boat people who came in under Rudd/Gillard were from Islamic countries - dispute it if you want, but on that point I'm not even going to argue with you.

As for Labor learning anything from the LNP’s success in stopping the boats....hearing Shorten interviewed on this issue gives me far less confidence than you have that Labor would have enough sense to continue with the LNP’s strategy.


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## bunyip (27 January 2015)

Tisme said:


> and finally give them a book on how to ride camels, set up tents in the deserts and how to buy and treat slaves.



They don’t need a book on that sort of stuff......they’re already expert in those skills.


----------



## Tisme (27 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> They don’t need a book on that sort of stuff......they’re already expert in those skills.




You think? My travels in the middle east indicate an indolent society who have too much time sitting around looking for mischief.

I would hazard a guess the mainstream Arab is more tuned into drifting in a Toyota than riding or even having seen a camel. The majority of Muslim types I have witnessed who have a work ethic are Pakistanis and the Asians who must work because they are trapped in third world conditions in large part because they practice Islam and it's incipient social poverty, without the riches garnered by selling oil to westerners and western inspired industrial nations. And only Arabs are true Muslims as proclaimed in the book.


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## SirRumpole (27 January 2015)

> The bulk of the 50 thousand boat people who came in under Rudd/Gillard were from Islamic countries -




That doesn't mean they were all Muslim extremists. If you lived in a country like Afghanistan ruled by the Taliban or their lackeys, wouldn't you want to get out ?


----------



## Tisme (27 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> That doesn't mean they were all Muslim extremists. If you lived in a country like Afghanistan ruled by the Taliban or their lackeys, wouldn't you want to get out ?




Yes let's not forget what Pakistan once was before bloody minded men destroyed it back to the Muslim stone age:



https://www.google.com.au/#q=afghanistan+1960s+pictures


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## Bintang (27 January 2015)

*Islamic Holy Man Rapes and Murders Child in Mosque*

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/26-Jan-2015/fearless-confession-of-a-child-killer

Of course we have heard sufficient from our political elite to know that this has *nothing to do with Islam* because Islam is a peaceful religion.

From where then did this monster get his inspiration?  Catholicism?


----------



## bunyip (27 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> That doesn't mean they were all Muslim extremists. If you lived in a country like Afghanistan ruled by the Taliban or their lackeys, wouldn't you want to get out ?




I didn’t say they were all Muslim extremists.

Sure I’d want to get out if I lived in one of those countries. And if I found a free country like Australia that was decent enough to take me in, I’d show my appreciation by doing everything in my power to fit in by accepting the people, their values and beliefs, their lifestyle, their religion, their laws and their food, their language, their customs - everything. I’d be willing to change to _*their*_ ways – I wouldn't expect them to change to mine.

It almost beggars belief that after we’ve been decent enough to take these people into our country and look after them by providing housing, schooling, money for food and other basics, healthcare, language classes, jobs training, all completely free of charge, the ungrateful bastards then turn on us and treat us with contempt!


----------



## Tisme (27 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> It almost beggars belief that after we’ve been decent enough to take these people into our country and look after them by providing housing, schooling, money for food and other basics, healthcare, language classes, jobs training, all completely free of charge, the ungrateful bastards then turn on us and treat us with contempt!




Operation Trojan Horse.

As soon as they open their anti Australian/Sovereign mouths they should be charged with sedition and deported back whence they came, even while awaiting a trial some doo gooder will lodge. They can pay for their airfare too imo.


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## SirRumpole (27 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> I didn’t say they were all Muslim extremists.
> 
> Sure I’d want to get out if I lived in one of those countries. And if I found a free country like Australia that was decent enough to take me in, I’d show my appreciation by doing everything in my power to fit in by accepting the people, their values and beliefs, their lifestyle, their religion, their laws and their food, their language, their customs - everything. I’d be willing to change to _*their*_ ways – I wouldn't expect them to change to mine.
> 
> *It almost beggars belief that after we’ve been decent enough to take these people into our country and look after them by providing housing, schooling, money for food and other basics, healthcare, language classes, jobs training, all completely free of charge, the ungrateful bastards then turn on us and treat us with contempt!*




How people get away with such mass generalisation is beyond me.

You don't think "they" are "all" Muslim extremists, yet you classify them all in one pile by " we’ve been decent enough to take *these people* into our country and look after *them* by providing housing, schooling, money for food"

So lets have an estimate of how many of the 50,000 refugees we've taken in are Muslim extremists in your opinion ?

Yes, I support putting people smugglers out of business, but let's not tar all of the 50,000 as evil Islamists.

I'm sure a lot of them would work hard and make a contribution if they weren't locked up in concentration camps.


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## Bintang (27 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm sure a lot of them would work hard and make a contribution if they weren't locked up in concentration camps.




Yes, I'm sure too, as explained in this video from Today Tonight.


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## dutchie (27 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> It almost beggars belief that after we’ve been decent enough to take these people into our country and look after them by providing housing, schooling, money for food and other basics, healthcare, language classes, jobs training, all completely free of charge, the ungrateful bastards then turn on us and treat us with contempt!




It's got nothing to do with Islam they are just following the Koran.


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## Bintang (27 January 2015)

dutchie said:


> It's got nothing to do with Islam they are just following the Koran.




*The Swedish know a thing or two about this:*


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## Bintang (27 January 2015)

*Islamic Sharia Law Comes to Great Britain*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-...r_detailpage&x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=IICjsnAQVRc

All this is going on under the nose of the British Royal Family. Why aren’t they doing something about it?  Perhaps we should ask *Sir-Prince-do-you-still-throw-spears-at-each-other-Philip*:

Interviewer: _Sir Philip, What do you think about Islamic Sharia Law being practiced in Great Britain?_
Sir Prince Philip:  _What do you mean? That’s just for muslims._
Interviewer: _Yes Sir Philip but that’s the point there are so many muslims in our country and they are practicing Sharia Law._
Sir Prince Philip:  _Ha ….. I don’t think so. Those people all ride camels. Haven’t seen many camels around London lately. Have you? _

Meanwhile we have nothing to worry about in Australia.  

*Muslim Sharia Law In Australia*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-...r_detailpage&x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=iN7eQyrDt-U


----------



## bellenuit (27 January 2015)

Of course this is all due to the Israel-Palestinian conflict and aggression from the West according to the apologists.

*ISIS Leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Orders Female Genital Mutilation of Two Million Girls*

http://www.aina.org/news/20150126163521.htm


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## bunyip (27 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> How people get away with such mass generalisation is beyond me.
> 
> You don't think "they" are "all" Muslim extremists, yet you classify them all in one pile by " we’ve been decent enough to take *these people* into our country and look after *them* by providing housing, schooling, money for food"
> 
> ...



You’re pretty good at generalizations yourself, as your post No. 3043 shows in the thread titled ‘Asylum Immigrants – Green Light’.
That post is quoted below.
In another post you said ‘All immigration from Islamic countries must stop’. (or words to that effect)

Now all of a sudden you seem to have changed sides by going in to bat for Muslims.
Anyway, here’s your post that I’m referring to....the one that’s full of generalizations.

_*In small numbers you are correct, but experience has shown that when their population reaches a certain point, Muslims try and take over our laws by gradual insistence that Sharia law be introduced alongside secular laws. 

Sharia law imposes penalties for "apostacy", ie renouncing ones religion. This is obviously in conflict with our stance of freedom of religion (and consequently freedom to have no religion) that a secular society enjoys. These sort of influences can only be successfully opposed by ensuring that the Muslim population remains below a critical mass whereby they cannot impose their beliefs on the wider society.

Muslims capacity to integrate cannot be compared to those of other ethnic groups because Muslims believe that their law should override other laws. It says so in the Koran. Their beliefs are fundamentally incompatible with a secular society, and any increase in their influence by way of an increasing Muslim population must be resisted.

If Muslims want to flee as refugees, there are plenty of Muslim countries around that they can go to. Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia etc who I'm sure will welcome their brothers with open arms. Not here thanks.*_ 

As for your challenge to provide an estimate of how many Muslim extremists are among the 50 thousand we’ve taken in.....I’m not dancing to your tune - make your own estimate if you want one.

Please yourself whether you reply to this post, but I won’t be reading it if you do. You’re not worthy of my time, so I won’t be giving you any more of it - I’ve put you on ‘ignore’ from now on.


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## SirRumpole (27 January 2015)

bunyip said:


> You’re pretty good at generalizations yourself, as your post No. 3043 shows in the thread titled ‘Asylum Immigrants – Green Light’.
> That post is quoted below.
> In another post you said ‘All immigration from Islamic countries must stop’. (or words to that effect)
> 
> ...




Oh good, glad to hear you are not listening, I'll sleep better tonight.


----------



## Bintang (27 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Just because people have a variety of opinions and disagree with you DOES NOT mean that they want to silence you, they are just utilising THEIR right to oppose what you have said.
> 
> You see this countless times on forums. People get really narked when others disagree and they cry censorship.
> 
> It's really disappointing, because in other respects you make some good points.






SirRumpole said:


> What a jerk.




This is not one of your most eloquent posts Rumpole.
I hope you are not getting narked.
It's really disappointing, because in other respects you make some good points.

PS: Sorry for leaving out the Sir in front of Rumpole. This is reserved for Sir-Prince-do-you-still throw-spears-at-each-other-Philips


----------



## SirRumpole (27 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> This is not one of your most eloquent posts Rumpole.
> I hope you are not getting narked.
> It's really disappointing, because in other respects you make some good points.
> 
> PS: Sorry for leaving out the Sir in front of Rumpole. This is reserved for Sir-Prince-do-you-still throw-spears-at-each-other-Philips




Retracted. But still a silly comment that fails to discriminate between the Islamic ideology (which I think is poisonous), and individual Muslims, (or individual refugees who may or may not be Muslims) who, like most groups of people contain good and bad.

Ah well, can't please everyone I suppose.


----------



## Bintang (27 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Retracted. But still a silly comment that fails to discriminate between the Islamic ideology (which I think is poisonous), and individual Muslims, (or individual refugees who may or may not be Muslims) who, like most groups of people contain good and bad.
> Ah well, can't please everyone I suppose.




One way of discriminating would be to only accept non-muslim refugees from the Middle East such as Christians and Yazidis. You don't have to like their religions either but they are less likely to be poisonous. Alternatively we could heed this warning:

_"In the world of snakes and vipers, the average person can’t distinguish between the poisonous snake and the non-poisonous snake; the average person has no choice but to avoid all kind of snakes. Since the world did not invent a tool to be able to detect who is the “devout” Muslim and who is the “nominal” Muslim or a device to detect who is telling the truth and who is practising “taqqiyah تقية” (telling lies to the unbelievers in order to advance the cause of Islam), so it is wise to take your precautions against ALL Muslims and not accept them as immigrants or asylum seekers. They leave us no choice but to avoid them all."
_


----------



## luutzu (28 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> One way of discriminating would be to only accept non-muslim refugees from the Middle East such as Christians and Yazidis. You don't have to like their religions either but they are less likely to be poisonous. Alternatively we could heed this warning:
> 
> _"In the world of snakes and vipers, the average person can’t distinguish between the poisonous snake and the non-poisonous snake; the average person has no choice but to avoid all kind of snakes. Since the world did not invent a tool to be able to detect who is the “devout” Muslim and who is the “nominal” Muslim or a device to detect who is telling the truth and who is practising “taqqiyah تقية” (telling lies to the unbelievers in order to advance the cause of Islam), so it is wise to take your precautions against ALL Muslims and not accept them as immigrants or asylum seekers. They leave us no choice but to avoid them all."
> _




So how do you think we ought to judge non-Muslims we meet to be sure whether they're poisonous or not.
Or are non-Muslims just good people and we don't need to worry about it?

How about White Muslims? Or non-Arab Muslims? Can we assume that if a person whose race and nationality is not Muslim/Islamic but who chose to convert to Islam... we just assume they're up to no good?


I saw that movie Zero Dark Thirty - about the hunt for bin Laden.... I think it showed a high ranking Pentagon officer being White, American, have high security clearance, and also a convert of Islam. Man, they're everywhere... it's like one in four people in the world is a Muslim or something.


----------



## Bintang (28 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> So how do you think we ought to judge non-Muslims we meet to be sure whether they're poisonous or not.




luutzu, this whole thread has attempted to answer that question for you. I can say no more.



luutzu said:


> How about White Muslims? Or non-Arab Muslims? Can we assume that if a person whose race and nationality is not Muslim/Islamic but who chose to convert to Islam... we just assume they're up to no good?




Muslim is not a race and Islam is not a nationality. Aside from that minor technicality, the reason why someone would convert to Islam depends on the circumstances. Throughout history and even today in Iraq and Syria non-muslims have converted to Islam only because a sword was raised above their necks.



luutzu said:


> I saw that movie Zero Dark Thirty - about the hunt for bin Laden.... I think it showed a high ranking Pentagon officer being White, American, have high security clearance, and also a convert of Islam. Man, they're everywhere... it's like one in four people in the world is a Muslim or something.




Well there are a very large number of people in America who believe that President Obama himself is a muslim (but a closet one). I happen to think they are wrong. He is just America’s chief *Islamotoady*.


----------



## Bintang (28 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> So how do you think we ought to judge non-Muslims we meet to be sure whether they're poisonous or not.?






Bintang said:


> luutzu, this whole thread has attempted to answer that question for you. I can say no more.




luutzu, after giving  your question some more thought I think I can offer you a slightly more helpful answer.  I can’t tell you how to judge whether a non-muslim is poisonous  but I have devised a simple method you can use to decide whether a non-muslim harbours poisonous thoughts of Islamophobia.  

Here is what you do:  Show them the attached set of photos and ask them to identify which one is an image of an *Islamotoady*. If they answer ‘B’ you will know that they are not poisonously Islamophobic.


----------



## luutzu (28 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> luutzu, after giving  your question some more thought I think I can offer you a slightly more helpful answer.  I can’t tell you how to judge whether a non-muslim is poisonous  but I have devised a simple method you can use to decide whether a non-muslim harbours poisonous thoughts of Islamophobia.
> 
> Here is what you do:  Show them the attached set of photos and ask them to identify which one is an image of an *Islamotoady*. If they answer ‘B’ you will know that they are not poisonously Islamophobic.
> 
> View attachment 61344




I'm pretty I was asking you that since we now know how best to treat Muslims - see them as all potential poisonous vipers as that quote you attached suggests... How else do we judge other potential vipers of the dangerous kinds that are not Muslims. 

That is, I get the point that it's safest to assume all Muslims are bad; How do I judge the same in others, say White folks.. or Asians. Those people tend to all look the same, how do I tell good from bad? Especially when they're Christian and... and Asians; White and Muslim.



You serious about Obama or any US president being a puppet of any Muslim leader? Any leader in any other country? Prince Charles I could understand because he's just a figurehead there to cut ribbons or receive some knighthood or something... but a US president? Kowtowing? Not until after WW3 at least man.


----------



## Bintang (28 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> I'm pretty I was asking you that since we now know how best to treat Muslims - see them as all potential poisonous vipers as that quote you attached suggests... How else do we judge other potential vipers of the dangerous kinds that are not Muslims.




Judge them by their acts and from where they get their inspiration and direction.


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## luutzu (28 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Judge them by their acts and from where they get their inspiration and direction.




That is actually quite clever.


Why do smart people do and say the dumbest thing I don't know. Anyway...


----------



## Bintang (28 January 2015)

luutzu said:


> That is actually quite clever.




Thank you. It applies to non-muslims and muslims alike.

Have we actually reached agreement on something?  Awesome. :bananasmi


----------



## basilio (29 January 2015)

So this thread is still weaving its way through ASF... I really hoped that a consensus of views that it was an essentially  poisonous  conversation that was not going to be constructive.

As I have watched it the thread began with a title that framed/presupposed an outrageous  outcome "Is Islam inherantly evil". Transpose the word Islam for a score of other entities ( Judaism /Communism/ Capitalism/Facebook !) and one can see damaging the discussion will be. 

Essentially it is almost impossible to prove someone/something is not inherently evil. 

The discussion has done from the most simplistic and virulent comments wanting all mongrel Islams killed to relatively calm and sophisticated theological analysis. 

But the final conclusion that it seems Bintag et all come to is 

*a total distrust, fear and hate of anything to do with Islam and then by association anyone who doesn't support that view*

From my perspective I'm not sure if Islam (and all its adherants ) are to distrusted  feared and hated..  I think thats a pretty big call on 1.6 billion people not to mention the Islamtoadys who have now become part of the fellow travelers.

*What I am certain about.*

I an totally certain that taking the above view of Islam and its supporters is fundamentally evil.  

I'm totally certain that it will create its own consequences in terms of reciprocal distrust, fear and hate.

If a  group is pronounced  fundamentally untrustworthy, dangerous and threat to our way of life and this view becomes a significant part of the social discourse we will have war.

Words are weapons. When we make the accusations made in this thread (and a score of others) we are assaulting people.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 January 2015)

> If a group is pronounced fundamentally untrustworthy, dangerous and threat to our way of life and this view becomes a significant part of the social discourse we will have war.




Which is why we have to draw a line between people and ideology.

If the ideology states that people who turn away from their religion (apostates) must be killed, then would you agree that is an evil ideology ?

Would you agree that an ideology that says that women are the possessions of men is an evil ideology ?

On the other hand there are probably many Muslims who don't take these two teachings seriously, but practise a more relaxed version of Islam. Those people should not be condemned as evil, even though their ideology contains some evil ideas. So does Christianity. Is Christianity inherently evil ? Some may say so, but it's not Christians that are beheading people in Syria.


----------



## basilio (29 January 2015)

*What happens when a race is deemed inherently evil.*

It's been 70 years since Auschwitz was liberated. The survivors of that horror and now in their mere hundreds. The Guardian ran a series of stories on the commemoration of the day and what we need to remember about treating  people as fundamentally dishonest, dangerous and sub human.

How about having a look at the consequences  of going  down the path of categorizing an entire faith as evil.




> Irene Fogel Weiss, born in 1930 in BÃ³trÃ¡gy, Czechoslovakia, now Batrad, Ukraine. She lives in Virginia, US. She will be returning to Auschwitz for the third time, as part of the US presidential delegation, along with her daughter, Lesley Weiss
> 
> We lived in BÃ³trÃ¡gy, a very small, mostly poor town in Czechoslovakia with a population of approximately 1,000 mainly farming families, including about 10 Jewish families. The town was a typical low-income community with a tailor, a shoemaker, a grocery store, where people struggled to get by, but where everyone knew each other and there was easy communication between the neighbours, though that didn’t mean we were equal.
> 
> ...



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/26/tales-from-auschwitz-survivor-stories


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## luutzu (29 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Which is why we have to draw a line between people and ideology.
> 
> If the ideology states that people who turn away from their religion (apostates) must be killed, then would you agree that is an evil ideology ?
> 
> ...




I'm pretty sure those two teachings/practices don't just happen in Islam.

Regarding Islam's prescription for apostates, you can point to sections in the Koran and argued that the Prophet himself does not do that and so it is forbidden; With regards to Islam's treatment of women, again you can point to Muhammad's first marriage to a woman older and wiser than himself, how much he loved her and learnt from her and argued that the prophet himself respect and love and treasure his wife and women...

So like all religion and religious texts, it all depends on the purpose and character of the interpreter/reader.

I heard that some sect within Christianity does not recognise/worship the Virgin Mary; from Dan Brown's DaVinci Code, seems the entire Christian faith whitewash Jesus' marriage and love with Magdalene or him ever having a family or children... From Chomsky, I heard that during the writing of the US constitution a question of asked whether or not women should be allowed to vote - the answer is no because they figured that will disadvantaged unmarried men as women will vote however their husband/father wanted them to vote... and women didn't get to be their own person and vote until the 1950s [?]. And forget about the "coloured" people or coolies in the colonies.


So yea, let a bunch of racists male chauvinists write the rules and run the country... hell, don't need any major religion to screw up the rights of just about every citizens who aren't the ruling class.


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## basilio (29 January 2015)

> If the ideology states that people who turn away from their religion (apostates) must be killed, then would you agree that is an evil ideology ?
> 
> Would you agree that an ideology that says that women are the possessions of men is an evil ideology ?



Sir Rumpole

I can't say I am happy or agree with some of the behaviors of some Muslim states. The challenging part is trying to pick ones way through the "ideology" of Islam. 

Bintag and others have give numerous quotes which attempt to show that the fundamental Islamic ideology is  untrustworthy and essentially evil. For my part I also have looked at Islamic theology and interpretation and found that the verses quoted have often been taken out of historical context. On other occasions there have been revisions that reflect the realities of a 21 st Century environment.  I note that Bintag rejects any of these interpretations as simply another example of Islamic deception.

*But regardless of the religious discussion it doesn't change the facts of some countries killing people who turn away from their religion or abusing women*. Yeah its wrong. Yes we can't allow or even consider such concepts in our country.  Yes we do need to make sure (in as constructive a way as possible) that religious leaders in Australia or elsewhere respect the overall freedom that we have to choose our religious beliefs. 

___________________________________________________________

While I was researching Islamic interpretations of the Koran I came across the open letter sent by scores of Muslim leaders to the head of ISIS.  It's not short but it certainly made clear how much they were revolted by the behaviour of ISIS in the name of Islam. 

I'll post the Executive Summary.  Anyone interested can read the full story and in particular the doctrinal discussion.

1
Executive Summary
1    It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwa s without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an or part of a verse to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that mat ter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas, and one cannot ‘cherry pick’ Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith

2  It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings abo ut anything without mastery of the Arabic language.

3  It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari’ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.

4  It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.

5  It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

6  It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

7  It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.

8  Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.

9  It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.

10  It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat in any way Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.

11  It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.

12 The re introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.

13  It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

14  It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.

15  It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.

16  It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud) without following the correct procedures that ensure justice and mercy.

17  It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.

18  It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.

19  It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God

20 It is forbidden in Islam to dest roy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.

21  Armed insurrection is forbidden in Islam for any reason other than clear disbelief by the ruler
and not allowing people to pray.

22  It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.

23  Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.

24  After the death of the ProphetIslam does not require anyone to emigrate anywhere

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/14/english-v14.pdf


----------



## bellenuit (29 January 2015)

basilio said:


> As I have watched it the thread began with a title that framed/presupposed an outrageous  outcome "Is Islam inherantly evil".




Basilio, if you worked on the assumption that the topic theme was outrageous from the start and should not be discussed, then you are not open to persuasion no matter what facts are presented to you. 



> Transpose the word Islam for a score of other entities ( Judaism /Communism/ Capitalism/Facebook !) and one can see damaging the discussion will be.




It would not be in the least bit damaging to discuss whether any of those memes are inherently evil. In fact how could you persuade society of the evil of anything if it is above discussion? 



> Essentially it is almost impossible to prove someone/something is not inherently evil.




No it isn't. Just because some memes may have parts that are bad won't mean that one could conclude that they are inherently evil. However, if a meme had large parts that are inherently bad and it can be shown that those parts have been the cause of so much suffering in the world for one and a half millennia, then it is possible to conclude that that meme is inherently evil. 

It is like an apple. We pick up and apple and see that it is bruised and soft under the skin in a small section. We cut that part off and eat the rest. But if we see the apple, apart from a small part looking OK, is infested with maggots, we conclude it is inherently bad and throw it out. Islam is like that. 



> The discussion has done from the most simplistic and virulent comments wanting all mongrel Islams killed




I have not seen mention of mongrel Islams. In fact you are mixing up Islam with its followers. Islam is the religion (meme), Muslim is the follower. 



> But the final conclusion that it seems Bintag et all come to is et al
> 
> *a total distrust, fear and hate of anything to do with Islam and then by association anyone who doesn't support that view*




An incomprehensible conclusion. I would suggest that you haven't understood one single post that supported the thread topic. In fact post after post went out of the way to differentiate between Islam the meme and Muslims the followers of that meme. Yet YOUR conclusion is that these posters have a total distrust, fear and hatred of muslims and also of non-muslims who don't hold the view Islam is inherently evil. An unbelievable example of lack of comprehension, whether deliberate or not.



> From my perspective I'm not sure if Islam (and all its adherants ) are to distrusted  feared and hated..  I think thats a pretty big call on 1.6 billion people not to mention the Islamtoadys who have now become part of the fellow travelers.




Again repeating my previous comment. An unbelievable example of lack of comprehension, whether deliberate or not. 



> *What I am certain about.*
> 
> I an totally certain that taking the above view of Islam and its supporters is fundamentally evil.




Again, the same straw argument. No one claimed all its supporters are inherently evil. And what hypocrisy to suggest that it is possible for the meme that says "Islam is inherently evil" to be inherently evil in itself, but that Islam itself being inherently evil as a meme is beyond discussion. That is worse than 1984.



> I'm totally certain that it will create its own consequences in terms of reciprocal distrust, fear and hate.




That may be so, but that doesn't mean that the thread topic is untrue. In fact because such consequences are possible is an indictment of Islam to begin with. Going back to one of your original comments above: _Transpose the word Islam for a score of other entities ( Judaism /Communism/ Capitalism/Facebook !) and one can see damaging the discussion will be._ For all those other entities, there would be NO consequences like you have suggested for a meme "XXX is inherently evil". There have been such discussions all the time without any threat of a backlash.  



> If a  group is pronounced  fundamentally untrustworthy, dangerous and threat to our way of life and this view becomes a significant part of the social discourse we will have war.




If you are talking about Muslims in Australia or Muslims in general, then you are again showing your complete lack of comprehension of what has been discussed. If in regards to specific Islamic groups, ISIS for example, then if you are suggesting that ISIS, for example, is not fundamentally untrustworthy, dangerous and threat to our way of life then I am sorry for you. 



> Words are weapons. When we make the accusations made in this thread (and a score of others) we are assaulting people.




No, Islam the meme is being assaulted. If people feel threatened by what is said about Islam then they either do not want to hear the truth, are so brain washed that they cannot see the truth or are so unsure about their convictions that they know they cannot be defended. That is not a reason why such discussions should not take place. 

Reading back through your other posts I have found little in the way of genuine argument from you other than faux offence and straw man arguments. On several occasions you have equated Islam the meme with the Jewish people who were the victims of Nazism, yet when it was argued that the parallel was not Islam and the Jewish people but Islam and Nazism, with many many examples given, you simply ignored what was said.

I'm sorry Basilio, but if that is your conclusion on the discussion that has taken place on this thread, then it is obvious that you have approached it with a completely closed mind and ignored everything that was said.


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## basilio (29 January 2015)

Well Bellenuit you certainly took some trouble to refute me piece by piece. Where do we go from here ?

I stand by my criticism of the framing of this topic. Asking the question "Is Islam/Judaism/Christianity inherently evil " is , in my view an extreme statement of fact dressed up as a question. There would be far more neutral ways of opening a discussion on such a topic without such a damning conclusion created in the question itself.

But in my observation the intention of this discussion on this and many other forums is to arrive at the conclusion as quickly as possible.[/B]

As far deciding just how bad/sick a meme is and the misery it has caused in the world? 

Where do you start Bellenuit? Whose statements do you believe?  What do you actually look at ? How do create a balance between the good and the bad ?*

For arguments sake Christianity has had much to answer for in terms of its impact on the world. Religious persecutions,  slavery,  Inquisitions, institutional  pedophilia (expose of sexual misconduct amongst clergy in past 20 years )

I wouldn't even try to  describe or balance these actions. I can't imagine  how it could be sensibly done.  And yet this thread feels comfortable about condemning an entire faith and its adherents with a series of handpicked religious quotes and a number of incidents.

It would be childs play to do the same with any other entity.  

So the question remains  "Why do we want to demonise Islam"  ( and not look too closely at other religions or institutions?

With regard to my bolded statements 

a total distrust, fear and hate of anything to do with Islam and then by association anyone who doesn't support that view

I disagree with you that  that is not the intended outcome of many (but not all) participants in this thread. 
I have watched  Bintags posts closely as probably the most prolific poster. From my reading of his posts  he appears to distrust all Muslims as matter of necessity. He has said repeatedly there are no moderate muslims. Finally he users as a signature note 

"The most authentic form of Islam being practised in the world today is that being practised by ISIS"

It is presented as some sort of  clear fact. In fact it is a monstrous lie. In the statement he attempts to connect the entire Muslim community to the actions of a bunch of psychopaths who are using their own special interpretation of Islam to justify the unjustifiable.

Bintang has also chosen to call out "Islamtoadys" as he calls them. Essentially it is any politician who doesn't stand up and attack Islam. (I suspect its a phrase that would also be applied to anyone else who doesn't agree with the total attack on Islam.)   Again the use of very selective quotes which seems to be the common thread when one is trying to destroy a persons reputations. ( He pulled a single line from President Obama defending Islam. When the whole speech is exposed its clear  the President was  arguing for the protection of all faiths and all people.)

But I stand by my main point.  Creating a climate of distrust, fear and hatred is a short step to anarchy.  
I mean how obvious is to say that demonising a whole group in a society is not going to create problems? And maybe thats why we have established hate laws to STOP any tendency for such behavior as a danger in itself to our society 

I have changed my mind through this thread. 

1) There are issues with some Islamic beliefs that arn't compatible with our present society. Our laws are set in this country for all people. Sharia law and in particular some of the extreme interpretations are unacceptable. I don't believe we can ignore this issue.

2) If this thread is any sort of litmus test of our society then the risk of returning to full on religious war as a result of our own behaviour is very real.*


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## dutchie (29 January 2015)

basilio said:


> *a total distrust, fear and hate of anything to do with Islam and then by association anyone who doesn't support that view*




I don't know if you realise it or mean it but this is deemed as shouting.


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## Bintang (29 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> I'm sorry Basilio, but if that is your conclusion on the discussion that has taken place on this thread, then it is obvious that you have approached it with a completely closed mind and ignored everything that was said.




 Excellent post bellenuit.

For those with the time and patience and I am posting two very interesting videos.

*WARNING:  Both these videos contain TRUTH which some people will find OFFENSIVE.*

The first is a video about what is happening in the town of Luton, UK as seen through the eyes of a young woman who grew up there, moved away and returned after a  few years to investigate for herself its notoriety as a hot-bed of Islamic extremism. It is also the birth-place of the English Defence League (EDL). It is a long video but worth watching. 



The second video is of former EDL leader Tommy Robinson speaking at the Oxford Union last December.  Just the fact that he was invited to speak there provoked controversy and anger. It is also a very long video and Tommy’s accent is a bit difficult to follow at times. Nonetheless, the man has an amazing story to tell if one has the patience to listen.


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## basilio (29 January 2015)

Hi Dutchie.

My understanding of internet protocols is that BOLDED letters indicate shouting.

However I was certainly trying to emphasize my point because it seems to encapsulate the overall view on many people on the thread. You could  certainly call it a loud call.

I do notice how quickly I am accused of supporting terrorists when I question the overarching antipathy to Islam. 

It's a very quick jump.


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## moXJO (29 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Hi Dutchie.
> 
> My understanding of internet protocols is that BOLDED letters indicate shouting.
> 
> ...




Capital letters shouting, bolded to emphasize a point I always thought


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## Bintang (29 January 2015)

basilio said:


> I have watched  Bintags posts closely as probably the most prolific poster. From my reading of his posts he appears to distrust all Muslims as matter of necessity. He has said repeatedly there are no moderate muslims. Finally he users as a signature note
> 
> _"The most authentic form of Islam being practised in the world today is that being practised by ISIS"_
> 
> It is presented as some sort of  clear fact. In fact it is a monstrous lie.




In which case we will just have to conclude that the Primer Minister of Turkey is also a liar:






basilio said:


> Bintang has also chosen to call out "Islamtoadys" as he calls them. Essentially it is any politician who doesn't stand up and attack Islam.




Your definition not mine. The polite thing to do if you are unsure would be to ask me what my definition is before you make such an assumption.


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## Bintang (29 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Bintang has also chosen to call out "Islamtoadys" as he calls them. Essentially it is any politician who doesn't stand up and attack Islam. (I suspect its a phrase that would also be applied to anyone else who doesn't agree with the total attack on Islam.)




basilio, you seemed to have missed the self-deprecating humour contained in my post #582.

What do you think about the following? 
Is it light-hearted fun or would you condemn it as an act of Islamophobia?:

_"****** have recently announced that they have opened voting for their Islamotoadyism Awards for 2015. The awards ceremony promises to be  “an evening of comedy mayhem as we recognise the worst Islamotoadys from around the world.”_


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## dutchie (29 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Hi Dutchie.
> 
> My understanding of internet protocols is that BOLDED letters indicate shouting.
> 
> ...






moXJO said:


> Capital letters shouting, bolded to emphasize a point I always thought




I took it as shouting but obviously I was wrong.


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## bellenuit (29 January 2015)

basilio said:


> And yet this thread feels comfortable about condemning an entire faith *and its adherents* with a series of handpicked religious quotes and a number of incidents.




I have no intention of again addressing every point in your latest post, suffice to say that the above comment shows you have again ignored almost every comment made by posters where they have clearly distinguished between Islam the religion and Muslims the followers of Islam.

As regards to Bintang's claim that there are no moderate Muslims, you are missing the subtlety of what he is saying. It was obvious from the start that he was not saying that all those who claim to be and act like moderate Muslims are lying and are in fact extreme in their views, but saying that those who claim to be and act like moderate Muslims are in fact not really Muslims according to the dictates of their faith. If a true Muslim means following the Islamic doctrine of the Quran and Hadith, then a moderate (by our standards) Muslim is not a true Muslim using that definition.

What do you make of the comments of Erdogan, PM of Turkey, that he posted above. Erdogan is endorsing Bintang's view. That also explains why Turkey is one of the biggest supporters of ISIS. Additionally, Erdogan said just a day or two ago that the Charlie Hebdo killings were actually organised by the US and Israel. Typical denials by Muslim leaders that always try to disassociate Islam from such barbarism. Erdogan is also the person who said just a month ago that women were lesser persons than men (you did notice all the Muslim protesters hitting the street over that statement?).


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## bellenuit (29 January 2015)

Basilio. Look carefully at what this guy is saying (and on Egyptian TV): *Our hatred of the Jews is based upon our faith*. He is not blaming the Palestinian - Israel conflict or Western aggression. His hatred of another people is based on his faith.





*Muslims Go Looking for Mosque, Assault Jewish Man in UK*

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2015/dgreenfield/muslims-go-looking-for-mosque-assault-jewish-man-in-uk/


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## Bintang (29 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> Basilio. Look carefully at what this guy is saying (and on Egyptian TV): *Our hatred of the Jews is based upon our faith*. He is not blaming the Palestinian - Israel conflict or Western aggression. His hatred of another people is based on his faith.




Egyptian Cleric Says Jews Are the Offspring of Snakes and Vipers and Were Behind All Wars
http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2058.htm

Following are excerpts from a religious TV program featuring Egyptian clerics Sheik Said Al-'Afani and Sheik Muhammad Abd Al-Salam, which aired on Al-Rahma TV on January 17, 2009:

_Said Al-'Afani: [The Jews] are the accursed people, who incurred the wrath of Allah. They are the offspring of snakes and vipers, the slayers of our Prophet Muhammad, whose death was a consequence of his being poisoned by a Jewish woman ……
*Our hatred of them is purely on religious grounds*, and not because of the pure, sacred land, which was blessed by Allah, or because of Gaza...
Said Al-'Afani: ...not only because of Al-Aqsa and so on. We hate them, first and foremost, because of their enmity towards Allah, and because they slayed our prophets.
Muhammad Abd Al-Salam: Let me clarify that *it is our duty to hate them, as part of our faith*.
Said Al-'Afani: Right.
_

PS: *I guess they are free to say all these things because in Egypt there is total freedom of speech unconstrained by something like our Section 18C.*


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## luutzu (29 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> Basilio. Look carefully at what this guy is saying (and on Egyptian TV): *Our hatred of the Jews is based upon our faith*. He is not blaming the Palestinian - Israel conflict or Western aggression. His hatred of another people is based on his faith.
> 
> View attachment 61355
> 
> ...




Yea, Israelis have very nice things to say about Arabs and Muslims... go check it out on youtube, it'll bring tears to your eyes the things they say given the history they went through.


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## Julia (29 January 2015)

dutchie said:


> I took it as shouting but obviously I was wrong.



dutchie, I don't think you were wrong, in that the font was much larger than the body of the text, although not actually in capital letters.  When bolded as well, the effect was - at least to me also - very much like shouting.


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## luutzu (29 January 2015)

Julia said:


> dutchie, I don't think you were wrong, in that the font was much larger than the body of the text, although not actually in capital letters.  When bolded as well, the effect was - at least to me also - very much like shouting.




Shouting is this:   FD;LKJHFDA!!!!!!!! ARRRGGGGGGG!!!!!! MOTHERBROTHER!!!!!!!!

To bold or make text larger is to HIGHLIGHT! THE POINT!!!! [last three words were shout out for effect ]


I say my good man. We are merely pondering the inherent vice, the appalling incivilities and  general barbarism of the followers of Muhammad the so called prophet (he he he). How uncouth and ill-mannered it is to raise our voice in such civil conversations regarding our superiority and their inferiority as clearly and ably demonstrated.

I do say. he he he... Cigar? he he he


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## Bintang (29 January 2015)

Julia said:


> dutchie, I don't think you were wrong, in that the font was much larger than the body of the text, although not actually in capital letters.  When bolded as well, the effect was - at least to me also - very much like shouting.






luutzu said:


> Shouting is this:   FD;LKJHFDA!!!!!!!! ARRRGGGGGGG!!!!!! MOTHERBROTHER!!!!!!!!
> 
> To bold or make text larger is to HIGHLIGHT! THE POINT!!!! [last three words were shout out for effect ]




Let basilio shout as much as he wants to. It has produced the useful side effect that instead of discussing his point of view people are discussing whether he shouted or not.

PS: Wasn't there a book written about this sort of thing, _"How to bury your message and not influence people"_


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## basilio (30 January 2015)

Perhaps we need to lighten this thread up. 

But still lets try to think about what a good honest all American/Australia/European Islamophobia might look like.

I can't do it as well as this guy so check out how Jon Stewart looks at the issue .

*When Islamic Xenophobia reachs its peak this what happens.*


..................................................  ..................................................  ......
_Waterboarding is how we baptise terrorists in America._


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## Bintang (30 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Perhaps we need to lighten this thread up.
> But still lets try to think about what a good honest all American/Australia/European Islamophobia might look like.
> I can't do it as well as this guy so check out how Jon Stewart looks at the issue .
> *When Islamic Xenophobia reachs its peak this what happens.*




The great thing about comedians is that they can laugh at both sides of an argument.

Jon Stewart: Wimpy White House Won’t ID Islam in Charlie Hebdo Shootings 
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kristi...e-house-wont-id-islam-charlie-hebdo-shootings

And the great thing about Western culture is that while we still have our freedom of speech we are free to laugh at and with the comedians.

Ayatollah Khomeini is reported to have said:
_“Allah did not create man so that he could have fun. The aim of creation was for mankind to be put to the test through hardship and prayer. An Islamic regime must be serious in every field. There are no jokes in Islam. There is no humor in Islam. There is no fun in Islam. There can be no fun and joy in whatever is serious. ...”_



Bintang said:


> basilio, you seemed to have missed the self-deprecating humour contained in my post #582.
> 
> What do you think about the following?
> Is it light-hearted fun or would you condemn it as an act of Islamophobia?:
> ...




And basilio if you are so into humour yourself perhaps you would like to comment on the above for which I am still awaiting an answer.


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## Bintang (30 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Perhaps we need to lighten this thread up.




*More humour. The cause of Islamophobia and its cure:*

Islamophobia is caused by a truth virus. In the West there is no known cure other than visiting the local mosque and allowing oneself to be brainwashed.
This has a very low success rate as the truth virus is very resilient.

In the middle east there is a guaranteed successful surgical treatment, which is free of charge. One way to obtain this treatment is to travel to Riyadh. When you get there just stand on any street corner and shout out  “Muhammad was a child molester”. 

However, such free treatment is not yet available in the West as it is pending the full implementation of Sharia law in Western society.


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## bellenuit (30 January 2015)

*Why islam is more Violent than Christianity*

http://thefederalist.com/2015/01/27/why-islam-is-more-violent-than-christianity-an-atheists-guide/


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## luutzu (30 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> *More humour. The cause of Islamophobia and its cure:*
> 
> Islamophobia is caused by a truth virus. In the West there is no known cure other than visiting the local mosque and allowing oneself to be brainwashed.
> This has a very low success rate as the truth virus is very resilient.
> ...




I saw a youtube where they quote a book from Time Inc. ranking the 100 most influential/important people throughout history - the entire history of the entire world.

Guess who rank #1? 

Muhammad. Yea, the most influential, the most significant figure in world history was Muhammad.

The author/editor [?] explained that the reason Muhammad was chosen was because no person could equal him in personal achievements and influence on both the secular and the religious realm.

From that PBS documentary, it was quite obvious that from nothing he managed to forged rivaling tribes of Bedouins/Arabs into one nation, and using Islam he united them into one people. How many people do you know that have done that in so short a time? Genghis Khan, maybe Alexander the Great on the military/nation building side... maybe Moses comes close on both counts... but not many others.

Through the Koran, he permitted trade, permitted scientific enquiries and do what JFK some 1300 years later encapsulate as "...here on Earth, God's work must be our own." So while glorious and progressive Christians preaches (and enforces) witch hunts, a life of self harm to repent for the sins of Adam and Eve... the Muslims weren't exactly waiting around for their maker did they?

When did we in the West, with our Christian values, legally abolish slavery? Segregation? Women's rights? Gay rights? Not that long ago.. and on matter of gay rights, we're not exactly out of the woods yet are we? On genocide against Aborigines? We've only recently said "sorry" didn't we? Of course we're sorry, been sorry for a while, but just like Howard we're only sorry if it means no bloody compensation.


So given the long history of Islam and Christianity and the conducts and policies of states and people it influenced... can we seriously say one is gentler and more progressive than the other? Or progress and repression a matter of political interests and leanings of those in power?

Socialism is a great idea... put it in the wrong hands and "all animals are equal, just some animals are more equal than others"... then "all animals are equal; but pigs are more equal than all others."

Capitalism is a nasty, heartless ideology. Let it go without regulation and you have kids working in coal mines, fish floating up on top of dead rivers... but give some thought and reasonable requirements of fair play and it does wonders for the world.

Things are not always as simple as they evil, we good.


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## Bintang (30 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Perhaps we need to lighten this thread up.






luutzu said:


> Muhammad. Yea, the most influential, the most significant figure in world history was Muhammad.
> 
> The author/editor [?] explained that the reason Muhammad was chosen was because no person could equal him in personal achievements and influence on both the secular and the religious realm.




The humour just keeps coming. In deference to basilio’s suggestion I will refrain from countering any of your remarks except to say that _”Any fool can turn a blind eye but who knows what the ostrich sees in the sand”_


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## basilio (30 January 2015)

Isn't the internet wonderful? With barely a flick of my wrists I can discover that almost all climate scientists are liars who are in league with the United Nations  and environmentalists to control the world through the great Global Warming hoax.

I can find out that President Obama is actually not an American but a Muslim stooge -  an Anti Christ even.

A thousand websites will scream about the horrors of Islam, the terrors to come of Islamic domination.

Another thousand will preach about the imminent coming of The Lord with Fire and Brimestone just around the corner.

Then there will be the scores that tell stories of vast international conspiracies. The Illuminati.  The great  secret Jewish takeover. The shadowy One World vistas of the United Nations.

I can keep looking of course. I will find stories of the most powerful nation on Earth having the biggest  communication spy network capable of monitoring almost any communication it desires.

Of hundreds of people whisked out of their homes  bundled into vans and taken to secret torture centres around  the world and duly "baptised" to find out what treachery they might be up to.

So how much of these stories do I believe ? What parts of them are credible ? Who is trying to tell the truth ? Who is trying to create a big lie ? Who are crazy ? Who are evil ?

One of the scariest parts of many discussions has been people trotting out stories that are simple and proven lies. But even when one goes to the trouble to point this out  (because there often is evidence to disprove particular stories) it doesn't change their views in the slightest.  They have made up their minds and no amount of evidence will convince them that, for  instance President Obama is legitimately American.

So in relation to the incessant production of anti Islamic stories. Having seen just how dishonest organizations can be I am very slow to just accept these on face value. As a question of balance for example one could find equal numbers of similarly abusive and truthful  representations of Jewish, American and Christian organisations. It is just a matter of looking. 

But the overall issue for me is still 

*"How will we respond to these messages of hate ?  What behavior is this writer attempting to elicit from us  "*

Distrust breeds distrust. Hate creates hate. Caluminies destroy goodwill.

________________________________________________________________________________________

And why should we be ultra careful of what we read on the net?  Because we now have evidence, from inside the secret services, that the Western intelligence community actively uses the Internet to manipulate, deceive and destroy reputations.

Something to think about perhaps ?




> *How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations
> By Glenn Greenwald
> @ggreenwald*
> 02/25/2014
> ...




https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/


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## Bintang (30 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Perhaps we need to lighten this thread up.






basilio said:


> And why should we be ultra careful of what we read on the net?  Because we now have evidence, from inside the secret services, that the Western intelligence community actively uses the Internet to manipulate, deceive and destroy reputations.




And so this invalidates every argument made on this thread
Took me a while to figure out the humour in this post but I finally got it. ROTFL

PS: Give us the heads up when you want to go back to being serious.


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## bellenuit (30 January 2015)

basilio said:


> As a question of balance for example one could find equal numbers of similarly abusive and truthful  representations of Jewish, American and Christian organisations. It is just a matter of looking.




*Officials: Boko Haram kidnaps 185 women and children, kills 32 people*
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/18/world/africa/nigeria-boko-haram-kidnapping/

*ISIS leader demands female genital mutilation of 2 million girls*
http://beforeitsnews.com/christian-...al-mutilation-of-2-million-girls-2508500.html

I'm very reluctant to put the following up and warn that some may find it disturbing. However, it is not even close to some of the other barbaric acts committed on women in the name of Islam.



So Basilio, go find me examples of similarly abusive and truthful representations committed by Jewish, American and Christian organisations against women comparable to the above 3. And please don't go talking about the crusades.


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## luutzu (30 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> The humour just keeps coming. In deference to basilio’s suggestion I will refrain from countering any of your remarks except to say that _”Any fool can turn a blind eye but who knows what the ostrich sees in the sand”_




I don't think I am turning a blind eye on anything. I am, as Howard used to remind us, alert but not alarmed.

As US vp Joe Biden said in one of his interviews, the best advice, and also the hardest to believe sometimes, he received when he first joined politics was that other politicians across the aisle also have the national interests at heart - just they believe it's best achieved in different ways.

Maybe he's too optimistic with politicians, haha... So while some Australians might think it's best for all Australians if Muslims are less devout or get out of Islam all together; those who say that that's wrong on many levels don't say it because they hate Australia and its values, or have their head in the sand either.


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## Bintang (30 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> *Officials: Boko Haram kidnaps 185 women and children, kills 32 people*
> http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/18/world/africa/nigeria-boko-haram-kidnapping/
> 
> *ISIS leader demands female genital mutilation of 2 million girls*
> ...







luutzu said:


> I don't think I am turning a blind eye on anything.




That's good to know luutzu. So make sure you read Bellenuit's last post and watch the video.


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## luutzu (31 January 2015)

bellenuit said:


> *Officials: Boko Haram kidnaps 185 women and children, kills 32 people*
> http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/18/world/africa/nigeria-boko-haram-kidnapping/
> 
> *ISIS leader demands female genital mutilation of 2 million girls*
> ...






Should we blame all Jews for what these guys say?




Would being forced to lock yourself inside your house, be afraid to walk down your street... That's just normal right?

And did that Jewish settler at the beginning just implied plans for genocide or annexation?



Look up all the crazy stuff people and countries do to each other at your own pleasure... too much for me. I'll put my head in the sand for this one.


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## Bintang (31 January 2015)

basilio said:


> Perhaps we need to lighten this thread up.
> But still lets try to think about what a good honest all American/Australia/European Islamophobia might look like.
> When Islamic Xenophobia reachs its peak this what happens.



Since there is still no sign from basilio that he/she wants to return to serious discussion I will continue with some more ‘light, humour’ by posting a video of an ‘honest to God' (I mean honest to Allah), true-blue *Islamophobe*, to remove any doubt about what one looks like.

I’m sure that all good, honest *Islamotoadys* will find this video absolutely hilarious.


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## DB008 (31 January 2015)

They say that history repeats itself.

All the bad things that Muslims have done in Western nations (9/11, London/Madrid/Boston/Bali bombings, Paris massacre, etc etc), will be their downfall.

Not saying that the West has clean hands, but they (Muslims) are digging their own graves.

Eventually, someone is going to say, 'Enough is enough'...


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## basilio (31 January 2015)

Actually I do other things with my life apart from trying to stop World War 3 from breaking out between Islamic  terrorists just around the corner and cowering WASP's.

What did you all manage to miss about my post?  The fact that there are a thousand, thousand nasty, crazy organizations  who can come up with diatribes against Muslims, Jew, Christians, Warmists, Collingwod supporters whatever to justify termination with extreme prejudice? Or at least destroy their reputation with a view to dismissing anything they say as coming from devils and terrorists?

The fact that some of these people are now sophisticated and cunning enough to do it without actually frothing at the mouth and looking like total socipaths? 

*The extra special fact that  secret  service orgs now routinely  enjoy the ease of setting up websites and creating whatever story they like with whatever evidence you can find or manufacture *

I wasn't dismissing all that relentless barrage of links showing just how evil the entire Islamic religion was. I am just calling it for what it is. Unbalanced , selective, hateful and if  believed and supported taking us to confrontations that can only be calamitous.

That was the main point.

____________________________________________________________________________

Many years ago I had  big turning point in my acceptance of news reports carried by the media.  I saw a 4 Corners program in the early 1980's which interviewed  journalists who reported on African affairs. 

It turns out the journalists were in fact CIA agents. One of their jobs was to create juicy stories that supported Americas political interests at the time. So a short story.

At that stage Angola was trying to gain independence.  The US and South Africa were agan it. At that stage Cuba decided to send support to the Angolan freedom fighters/rebels/ whatever.

So  what can we say that people will really remember and  quote whenever they hear about Cuban troops in Angola? The reporter/CIA agent thought and thought and came up with the idea of a nun being captured and raped by the Cuban soldiers. 

Excellent!! That really got some traction in the Press.  Sex, rape, *a Nun !*.  

Anyway the newspaper editors were very happy with story so the writer decided to continue his theme. His next story had the nun escaping her beastly captors and been rescued by the South African armed forces.  Excellent. More good reviews.

For the finale our erstwhile propagandist  decided that the nun and her rescuers were going to find the dastardly  Cubans and get due revenge. And so it was written. They certainly made great stories.
*
None of this ever, ever happened. It was all constructed in the imagination of a journalist/CIA agent, fed to the international Press and duly swallowed by the public. *

There were other similar stories but that stuck in my mind. It makes me very cautious about believing stuff just because it is in the newspapers.

____________________________________________________________________

_Waterboarding is how we baptise terrorists in America._      (So who exactly  would say this ? )


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## Bintang (31 January 2015)

basilio said:


> I *wasn't dismissing*  (oh yeah!!) all that relentless barrage of links showing just how evil the entire Islamic religion was. I am just calling it for what it is. Unbalanced , selective, hateful and if  believed and supported taking us to confrontations that can only be calamitous.




But of course you *are* dismissing all of it because that is the only tactic you have left to employ apart  from evading the questions put to you such as this from Bellenuit. 



bellenuit said:


> Officials: Boko Haram kidnaps 185 women and children, kills 32 people
> 
> I'm very reluctant to put the following up and warn that some may find it disturbing. However, it is not even close to some of the other barbaric acts committed on women in the name of Islam.
> 
> So Basilio, go find me examples of similarly abusive and truthful representations committed by Jewish, American and Christian organisations against women comparable to the above 3. And please don't go talking about the crusades.




Here is another question for you. What are the moral values of Islam? Please explain with reference to the doctrinal sources which support them.

PS: I take it we are back to serious discussion. Therefore I will repost this video - the serious version.


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## luutzu (31 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> ....
> 
> Here is another question for you. What are the moral values of Islam? Please explain with reference to the doctrinal sources which support them.
> 
> ...




I googled quotes from Islamic holy texts and posted them before, but here's some more I scanned through that's short and catches my eyes.


*Two Hundred Verses about Compassionate Living in the Quran

Read more: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2013/...mpassionate-living-in-the-quran#ixzz3QNeffx48*

1. It is not righteousness that you turn your faces to the East or the West, but truly righteous is he who believes in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Book and the Prophets, and spends his money for love of Him, on the kindred and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and those who ask for charity, and for ransoming the captives; and who observes Prayer and pays the Zakat; and those who fulfill their promise when they have made one, and the patient in poverty and afflictions and the steadfast in time of war; it is these who have proved truthful and it is these who are the God-fearing.  (Al Quran 2:178)


2. Indeed, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency, and manifest evil, and wrongful transgression. He admonished you that you may take heed. (Al Quran 16:91)


3.  And as for those who strive in Our path ”” We will surely guide them in Our ways. And Indeed, Allah is with those who are of service to others. (Al Quran 29:70)

4.  Indeed, Allah is with those who are righteous and those who do good.  (Al Quran 16:129)

5.  The reward of goodness is nothing but goodness. (Al Quran 55:61)

143. And when he reached his age of full strength and attained maturity, We gave him wisdom and knowledge; and thus do We reward those who do good.  (Al Quran 28:15)

144. A guidance and a mercy for those who do good.  (Al Quran 31:4)

145.  And he who submits himself completely to Allah, and is a doer of good, he has surely grasped a strong handle. And with Allah rests the end of all affairs.  (Al Quran 31:23)

160. And remember the time when We took a covenant from the children of Israel: ‘You shall worship nothing but Allah and show kindness to parents and to kindred and orphans and the poor, and speak to men kindly and observe Prayer, and pay the Zakat;’ then you turned away in aversion, except a few of you.  (Al Quran 2:84)

161. They ask thee what they shall spend. Say: ‘Whatever of good and abundant wealth you spend should be for parents and near relatives and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. And whatever good you do, surely Allah knows it well.’  (Al Quran 2:216)

*teachings about spouses:*
170.  Consort with them in kindness; and if you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing wherein Allah has placed much good.  (Al Quran 4:20)


* the orphans*
171. And they ask thee concerning the orphans. Say: ‘Promotion of their welfare is an act of great goodness. And if you intermix with them, they are your brethren. And Allah knows the mischief-maker from the reformer. And if Allah had so willed, He would have put you to hardship. Surely, Allah is Mighty, Wise.’    (Al Quran 2:21)

172. And if you fear that you will not be fair in dealing with the orphans, then marry of women as may be agreeable to you, two, or three, or four; and if you fear you will not deal justly, then marry only one or what your right hands possess. That is the nearest way for you to avoid injustice.  (Al Quran 4:4)

173. And when other relations and orphans and the poor are present at the division of heritage, give them something therefrom and speak to them words of kindness.   (Al Quran 4:9)

175. So the orphan, oppress not.  (Al Quran 93:10)


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## luutzu (31 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Since there is still no sign from basilio that he/she wants to return to serious discussion I will continue with some more ‘light, humour’ by posting a video of an ‘honest to God' (I mean honest to Allah), true-blue *Islamophobe*, to remove any doubt about what one looks like.
> 
> I’m sure that all good, honest *Islamotoadys* will find this video absolutely hilarious.





"Allah" means "God" in Arabic.

"Honest to Allah" is you mixing English with Arabic.

And yes, Allah and God refers to the same Being - that of the Abrahamic God, Lord, the Almighty...


That video is a joke. Just I know it's not intended to be satire.


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## luutzu (31 January 2015)

This site below discuss some common "beliefs" about Islam.

I read the page below and it seems reasonable.

The point about Islam and anti-Semitism is well made.



http://www.islamforpeace.org/quran.html

Point 1: Does the Quran instruct Muslims to kill Non-Muslims?
Significance of the definite article "Al" (i.e., "the")
A friend of mine once told me that the Quran instructs Muslims to kill all Infidels. I agreed with him that violent interpretations of the Quran exist and permeate many of our Islamic books. My friend then quoted the following 3 verses to prove his point.

Quran: {The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101}
Quran {Prophet, make war on the infidels Sura 66: 9} 
Quran {Never be a helper to the disbelievers Sura 28:86}
I thanked my friend for making this point as well as indicating these verses, and then responded as follows: 

Comments: 
Clearly, the above verses can incite much animosity and subsequent violence vis-a-vis all non-Muslims. Accepted literally - and uncritically - these verses lend themselves to the unjust persecution of otherwise innocent people, whose only crime is being non-Muslim. However, a pivotal matter of linguistic importance is often overlooked: the significance and usage of the definite article, "al" (i.e., "the"), which precedes the various disparaging Arabic words - kafirun, mushrikun - that describe non-believers in the Quran and which are often translated as "non-believers," "infidels," "idolaters," or "polytheists." Furthermore, in Arabic, the definite article is physically attached to the word it describes.

See below:

Quran: {The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101} 
Quran {Prophet, make war on the infidels Sura 66: 9 
Quran {Never be a helper to the disbelievers Sura 28:86}
The exact Arabic expression in these verses - indeed, in every verse that talks of the non-believer - is "Al-Kaferrin" or "Al-la-dhina Kafaru." The use of "Al-" or "Al-la-dhina" limits the verse (and thus commandment) to 1) a specific time and place in historyand 2) a specific group of people who were obstacles to the establishment of Islam in its nascent phase. It is these two factors that caused these verses to be revealed. Had the intentions of the Quran been to extend the application of these verses in perpetuity, it would have used the expression "Man Kafar," rather than "Al-Kafereen" or "Al-La-dhina Kafaru". The former, "Man Kafar," literally means any one who does not believe in God; while the latter, "Al-Kafereen," - the infidels - denotes a specific group of people: they who fought Prophet Mohamed in the early stages of Islam.

Moreover, the overriding principle which must ultimately guide our understanding of these verses is the constant *Quranic reminder that good Muslims do not initiate violence against others so long as the latter do not provoke hostilities.*

Quran 2:190 *Fight in the cause of God those who start fighting you, but do not transgress limits (or start the attack); for God loveth not transgressors.*


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## qldfrog (31 January 2015)

Bintang said:


> Since there is still no sign from basilio that he/she wants to return to serious discussion I will continue with some more ‘light, humour’ by posting a video of an ‘honest to God' (I mean honest to Allah), true-blue *Islamophobe*, to remove any doubt about what one looks like.
> 
> I’m sure that all good, honest *Islamotoadys* will find this video absolutely hilarious.




the sad bit is that this video is 100% correct when considering the current IS and Salafist islam flavour.


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## SirRumpole (31 January 2015)

> Quran 2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who start fighting you, but do not transgress limits (or start the attack); for God loveth not transgressors.




That passage could be interpreted violently, it depends on the interpretation of "fighting".

The Charlie Hebdo assassins could have interpreted the magazine's insults as "starting a fight" and therefore subject to revenge.

That's why the Koran is dangerous, a few passages in isolation can lead to violence. Better to ditch the whole thing and start again for the modern world (or throw it away altogether).


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## luutzu (31 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> That passage could be interpreted violently, it depends on the interpretation of "fighting".
> 
> The Charlie Hebdo assassins could have interpreted the magazine's insults as "starting a fight" and therefore subject to revenge.
> 
> That's why the Koran is dangerous, a few passages in isolation can lead to violence. Better to ditch the whole thing and start again for the modern world (or throw it away altogether).




We in the West don't exactly turn the other cheek when assaulted.

All religion should be abolished... but even then there still won't be peace on earth. Humans have been at war long before they discover God, and have been fighting long after they've separated God from their state's governance.


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## basilio (1 February 2015)

I previously posted information and a link from an open letter to ISIS.  This was produced by Islamic leaders from Canada USA UK and many other countries.

It was a very confronting letter and pulled no punches in its condemnation of the atrocities committed by ISIS and in the name of Islam.

I originally posted the Executive Summary with the 24 main points the Islamic leaders wanted to highlight as unacceptable actions.

The remainder of the letter details the theological rationale behind their rejection of slavery, mass murder, torture  ect as committed by ISIS. Obviously its too long to republish here . But as I suggested twice now its only a click away

I'll post the Executive Summary again. Anyone interested can read the full story and in particular the doctrinal discussion.



> 1
> Executive Summary
> 1 It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwa s without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an or part of a verse to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that mat ter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas, and one cannot ‘cherry pick’ Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith
> 
> ...




http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/14/english-v14.pdf


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## Bintang (1 February 2015)

basilio said:


> I previously posted information and a link from an open letter to ISIS.  This was produced by Islamic leaders from Canada USA UK and many other countries.




This USA muslim leader had something different to say. How long before he is on a  death list?

New York imam: “Let us admit…that we, the Muslims, are time bombs…The majority of us Muslims hate the Christians”

“Brooklyn Imam Tareq Yousef Al-Masri on Paris Terror Attacks: We Muslims Must Admit That We Are Time Bombs and We Hate Christians,” MEMRI, January 9, 2015:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4748.htm


Imam Tareq Yousef Al-Masri spoke about the terror attacks in Paris, and said that Muslims are like time bombs. He further said that Muslims should admit that they hate Christians. Imam Al-Masri explained that Wahhabi ideology is responsible for instilling hatred in the hearts of Muslims, *which leads to terrorism worldwide.*

Following are excerpts from the sermon, which was posted on the Internet on January 9, 2015.

_Let us admit, without lying to ourselves, that we, the Muslims, are time bombs. 
We must admit this. We cannot become immune if we do not admit this. If you have cancer, it won’t help you if I tell you that you have the flu. I must tell you that you clearly have cancer. When someone has cancer, they run a series of tests, in order to identify the cause of this cancer. They don’t just say that this cancer is an act of God. Everything comes from Allah, but this should not prevent us from studying the underlying reasons for this cancer.
Let us admit something else. The majority of us Muslims hate the Christians – true or false? Yes, that is the truth._
 […]
_Who instilled so much hatred in these generations?* It is the ideology present in the books* – the ideology of Ibn Taymiyyah, of Ibn Al-Qayyam, of Al-Nawawi. These are the pillars of this ideology. In modern times, we have Ibn Baz, Ibn Al-Uthaymeen, Al-Huweini, Muhammad Hassan… These people are responsible for instilling hatred in human beings._
[…]
_Christians sometimes cite the Quranic verses used by these thugs, those [Salafi] scholars who have corrupted the nation of Muhammad, and who have buried our good reputation in the ground. I’ve just mentioned their names – from the past and from the present.
[…]
*[These scholars consider] any Quranic verse of moral value to have been abrogated.* They consider any verse that calls to treat people with kindness to have been abrogated. All that remains valid is: Kill! Slaughter! Is that the only thing that God tells us?!
[…]
They have made the Muslims hate everyone – the Christians, the Jews, the atheists, and all human beings. Why did God say: “We made peoples and tribes that you may know one another”? How can you get to know other people if you hate them?! How can you maintain a relationship with them? Oh you who believe that truth is on your side, show me what “merchandise” you are selling. It amounts to nothing but killing and accusing others of heresy and polytheism. It is all bad. What have you contributed to human civilization? Nothing! Then you try to claim that you are the best among people, and that you will go to Paradise while everybody else will go to the Hellfire.
*I am ashamed of the rotten and despicable conduct of the Muslims.* Today, the Muslims stand up in mosques and wash their hands of these two brothers – or of the two brothers from the Boston bombings – but is this enough? No. Oh servants of Allah, do not hate people! Love people. Get closer to them. Do you want to invite other people to join Islam, while you hate them and curse them day and night?!_


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## Bintang (1 February 2015)

*Meanwhile the religion of Peace Strikes Again.
When there are few infidels left to kill they kill themselves instead:*

Over 50 followers of the religion of peace have been peacefully blown to pieces by peaceful followers of the religion of peace in their mosque at Friday prayers, in the land of Islamic peace and harmony, Pakistan.
Please always remember that brotherly (and sisterly) love, kindness and world peace are the unique features of Islam. And whoever says otherwise is a hate-mongering, racist and islamophobic bigot.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...thern-pakistan-kills-6-during-midday-prayers/

ISLAMABAD –  A bomb blast ripped through a Shiite mosque in southern Pakistan as worshippers gathered for Friday prayers, killing at least 56 people and wounding dozens more, in the deadliest act of anti-Shiite violence in two years.

The militant Sunni group Jundullah claimed responsibility for Friday's bombing in the city of Shikarpur in Sindh province, 310 miles north of the port city of Karachi.

*Sunni extremists do not consider Shiites*, who represent 10 percent to 20 percent of Pakistan's population, *to be true Muslims*. Sunni militants in Pakistan have bombed Shiite mosques, killed Shiite pilgrims traveling to neighboring Iran and assassinated Shiite religious figures and community leaders.


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## bellenuit (1 February 2015)

basilio said:


> I previously posted information and a link from an open letter to ISIS.  This was produced by Islamic leaders from Canada USA UK and many other countries.
> 
> It was a very confronting letter and pulled no punches in its condemnation of the atrocities committed by ISIS and in the name of Islam.
> 
> ...




I can't believe that your are that naive. Why is that document only calling out ISIS and not all the Islamic states and muslim majority countries that violate in almost their entirety every single rule in that list?

I'll take just one to start with. 

_14 It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights._

Are you suggesting that it is just ISIS that deny women their rights? What about Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and several others? And it is not just in practice, but written into their laws. I am not going to give a list of these violations because if you don't know by now, you must have had your head in the sand since birth.

And if you check the Islamic texts that support these laws, you will find that they are quoting the Quran and Hadith.

So why haven't the scholars that wrote that document called out not just ISIS, but all the Islamic and Muslim majority states that violate almost all of these rules? It is because they will be told that it is just their interpretation and it is wrong. They have their own scholars that interpret the Quran and Hadith in a different way and that is the way they will follow.

Unlike the Roman Catholic Church which has the Pope and Vatican as their leader, Islam has no leader. There is no single interpretation of the Quran. There is no one to say what it right or wrong. That is why there are different Islamic sects, some more tolerant than others.

But what you should really understand is why this document isn't been used to call out the Islamic and Muslim majority states that violate almost all of these rules but instead just ISIS, is because this document is written to appease critics in the West and for no other reason. To make it look like Islam is all fine and it is just a few renegades that misinterpret its doctrines for their own extremists ends. So you get all the usual crap that what Mohammed or Allah said is taken out of context and that only special scholars are capable of really understanding what was meant (those scholars being them).

I have asked you before how these scholars can seemingly rationalise the gross mistakes in the Quran about our physical universe with our current scientific knowledge, when it was supposedly written by the hand of God. When you read the explanations you see the same deliberate misinterpreting of words to make them say what they didn't actually say, incredulous inferences etc. etc. If you cannot see that this is the same obfuscation to pretend the bleedin' obvious is something different to what it is, then you are beyond persuasion of any sort.


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## bellenuit (2 February 2015)

bellenuit said:


> I have asked you before how these scholars can seemingly rationalise the gross mistakes in the Quran about our physical universe with our current scientific knowledge, when it was supposedly written by the hand of God. When you read the explanations you see the same deliberate misinterpreting of words to make them say what they didn't actually say, incredulous inferences etc. etc. If you cannot see that this is the same obfuscation to pretend the bleedin' obvious is something different to what it is, then you are beyond persuasion of any sort.




An example of what I meant.

*Quran Apologists Are Ridiculous*

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2015/02/01/quran-apologists-are-ridiculous/


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## luutzu (2 February 2015)

bellenuit said:


> I can't believe that your are that naive. Why is that document only calling out ISIS and not all the Islamic states and muslim majority countries that violate in almost their entirety every single rule in that list?
> 
> I'll take just one to start with.
> 
> ...




Is there one Christian sect?

I thought it is too.. .seriously, I have no idea the difference between Catholic and Protestant; or the Church of England; or Ultra Orthodox christians as practised in Russia [?], or the Roman Catholic as in Greece [?] Mormons? Evangelicals? 


The Koran wasn't written by the hand of God as you stated. It was, as claimed by Muhammad, spoken to him by the angel Gabriel (the same guy from the Christian one) as the word of God (Allah in Arabic).

A bit like Moses chiselling the ten commandment on the tablets and say God spoke to him.


Funny, the same Creator and somehow one's better than the other. Imagine God looking down as the two go at it over and over and over... with both claiming God is on their side each and every time.


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## basilio (3 February 2015)

It wasn't that long ago that the various Christian religions were at each others throats regarding the rightness of their theology. And the Muslims were regarded as a small step above the devil !

If there has been an improvement in the last 20-30 years it  has been with mainstream Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddahist religious leaders actively promoting an acceptance of each others beliefs. The overriding view is that which ever God you believe in you are asked to live a good life and that doesn't involve trashing or killing anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of God. 

BUT...each  religious branch has sects and subsects and the problems  of religious hatred appears to come from these groups. Ultra Orthodox Jews,  fundamentalist Christian sects, extreme Islamic groups. 

________________________________________________________

With regard to treatment of Muslim women in Saudi Arabia and some other Islam countries. It wasn't going to be possible for the open letter to ISIS to then go on condemn every other Islamic country that hasn't moved into the 21st Century. Whatever institution you are you pick your battles with care. Condemning ISIS as a renegade  group that is totally outside the law and needs to be stopped is the priority of all governments and religious groups. Bit like the Allies forming the alliance with Stalin in WW2.


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## bunyip (3 February 2015)

Dictatorships oppose democracy. The risk that Islam poses to a free country like Australia is that it's a dictatorship whose objective is to replace our democracy with the dictates of Islam. The more we allow that to happen, the more we sacrifice our freedoms and hence our quality of life. 
_*That*_ is why I’m so opposed to Islam being allowed to gain a foothold in our country.

Most Muslims would say_ ‘Don’t judge us all by the actions of a few extremists – most of us are against extremist behavior, we’re just ordinary people who want to ‘live and let live’._
Sounds reasonable on the surface, but the reality is that the dictatorship if Islam has no room for a ‘live and let live’ attitude. By supporting this dictatorship that is directly opposed to democracy, Muslims are not practicing a ‘live and let live’ philosophy – they’re supporting the erosion of our freedoms and our way of life.
Right now in some Australian cities, entire suburbs are becoming Islamized to the extent that democracy in those suburbs has been replaced by the dictates of Islam. If that’s allowed to keep happening – one suburb then a neighboring suburb then another one becoming Islamized, then the potential is there for entire cities to become Islamic. 
Is that what we want for our wonderful free country – our freedoms and our lifestyle gradually replaced by the ugly dictatorship of Islam that brings with it all the problems that plague so many Islamic countries, making life so intolerable that the people start deserting the place like rats from a sinking ship?
I don’t blame them for leaving these troubled countries – I’d do the same myself. But my beef is that in their new countries they set about recreating the same problems that drove them out of their home countries. They don’t have to be terrorists or radicals to recreate these problems – all they have to do is give their support to the insidious dictatorship of Islam.


----------



## DB008 (3 February 2015)

bunyip said:


> Dictatorships oppose democracy. The risk that Islam poses to a free country like Australia is that it's a dictatorship whose objective is to replace our democracy with the dictates of Islam. The more we allow that to happen, the more we sacrifice our freedoms and hence our quality of life.
> _*That*_ is why I’m so opposed to Islam being allowed to gain a foothold in our country.
> 
> Most Muslims would say_ ‘Don’t judge us all by the actions of a few extremists – most of us are against extremist behavior, we’re just ordinary people who want to ‘live and let live’._
> ...




Moderate Muslims at a conference in Norway.


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## Tisme (4 February 2015)

bunyip said:


> Right now in some Australian cities, entire suburbs are becoming Islamized to the extent that democracy in those suburbs has been replaced by the dictates of Islam. If that’s allowed to keep happening – one suburb then a neighboring suburb then another one becoming Islamized, then the potential is there for entire cities to become Islamic.
> *Is that what we want for our wonderful free country* – .




I guess it is what we want if the Muslims want it. They are Australian too.

I remember the enclaves of English migrants in Perth. Entire suburbs of Alf Garnets whining and bleating about everything, the ones who promoted the Tory cause while their dependent families suffered money deprivation, the first/second gens putting Doc Martins and short longs on and beating up poor undefended sods in the centre of town, ... they were a blight on the landscape.  But did we demand the English community become vigilantes and force their compatriots to behave like mainstream Wassies....nope.


----------



## Bintang (4 February 2015)

Anyone hear the news about the Jordanian pilot?
Here is some background info which was uploaded to the web in Dec 2008.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> Anyone hear the news about the Jordanian pilot?
> Here is some background info which was uploaded to the web in Dec 2008.





I don't think it's any secret that ISIS is inherently evil.


----------



## Bintang (4 February 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think it's any secret that ISIS is inherently evil.




President Obama’s reaction to the news about the Jordanian pilot:

_Whatever ideology they are operating under is “bankrupt.”_ 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R66wKOXhiks

Well that's interesting. So Obama doesn’t know what ideology *ISIS* is operating under.

Perhaps he hasn’t yet figured out what the mnemonic *ISIS* stands for. Here is a clue:

*ISIS* =   *Islamic* *S*tate of *I*raq and *S*yria


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## Wysiwyg (7 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> President Obama’s reaction to the news about the Jordanian pilot:
> 
> _Whatever ideology they are operating under is “bankrupt.”_



That execution is horrific. I had to see if they did actually do it. I have seen horror movies and stuntmen depicting this but it wasn't a movie, it was an execution beyond what I believe is conceivable by human beings.


----------



## pixel (7 February 2015)

Bintang said:


> President Obama’s reaction to the news about the Jordanian pilot:
> 
> _Whatever ideology they are operating under is “bankrupt.”_
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R66wKOXhiks
> ...




Their claim to be Islamic doesn't necessarily make it so.
Jordanians are also in the majority Muslims, yet they consider ISIL a barbaric abomination.


----------



## bellenuit (8 February 2015)

pixel said:


> Their claim to be Islamic doesn't necessarily make it so.
> Jordanians are also in the majority Muslims, yet they consider ISIL a barbaric abomination.




There is no governing authority that determines who is Islamic or not. They are just as entitled to call themselves Islamic as any other group who use the Quran and Hadith as their spiritual dogma. There is nothing that ISIS have done that cannot be justified by some passages in these documents. The fact that others might interpret them differently or use them in a different context doesn't make ISIS wrong. It is no different to the Westboro Baptist Church. They quote the old testament scriptures to justify their homophobic and other activities, but one would be hard pressed to prove that their interpretation is not as valid as that of other mainstream Christian sects. 

A recent Pew research poll showed that their was a majority or substantial minority of Muslims in many predominantly Islamic countries that approved of:

- killing apostates
- stoning to death homosexuals, atheists and adulterers
- killing those who insult Mohamed (insulting includes not accepting he is the true Prophet)

So what is true Islam? We in the West (at least most of us) would agree that anyone who holds one or more of the above opinions as barbaric. Yet we do not hear claims that they are not Islamic to hold such beliefs. We simply prefer to ignore the reality staring us in the face.


----------



## Tisme (8 February 2015)

"She's buried chest high"


----------



## basilio (9 February 2015)

"Nessrrin"  the young woman who produced that video that Tisme has cited seems to be an amazing person. I found the the last post she put on You Tube as she was hounded out.

Again well worth watching


----------



## Tisme (9 February 2015)

basilio said:


> "Nessrrin"  the young woman who produced that video that Tisme has cited seems to be an amazing person. I found the the last post she put on You Tube as she was hounded out.





She outstrips me in the bravery stakes. I can't imagine how hard it is to criticise something that is so ingrained in the psyche, especially with all the practiced barbarity that goes on.


----------



## bellenuit (9 February 2015)

Tisme said:


> She outstrips me in the bravery stakes. I can't imagine how hard it is to criticise something that is so ingrained in the psyche, especially with all the practiced barbarity that goes on.




The sad thing is that the women victims of Islamic barbarity have been abandoned by what should be their supporters in the West.

- The feminist movement is completely silent.
- Political leaders of all persuasions, though they may voice condemnation of the extremists, ignore the everyday barbarity perpetuated in countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen and some North African countries. Even so called moderate states like Indonesia (Aceh in particular)and Malaysia are not immune to administering some of the punishments depicted in the video.
- and maybe the greatest hypocrites of all, many so called "liberals" in the West, people and institutions, who have caved in to political correctness and are unwilling to call out this injustice against women. We have had universities in the UK and US who have agreed to segregate women from men in the audience at the behest of Islamic speakers. Even students at Yale tried to prevent Ayaan Hirsi Ali from speaking at the behest of their Muslim Students Association. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, like the lady who made the above video, is an outspoken critic of the treatment of women in Islamic countries. She, herself being the victim of FGM, speaks out against such practices and has to have personal bodyguards to protect her whenever she appears in public.


----------



## bellenuit (9 February 2015)

ISIS are a cancer in Islam, not because they go against Islamic scripture, but because they draw on it so effectively

_Muslim clerics who issue a *“letter to al-Baghdadi” *or a lengthy fatwa to delegitimise Isis miss the mark unless they understand the invigorating nature of this violent ideology. While Isis uses manuals such as Naji’s book, it references religious texts and stories. Muslim clerics should recognise that theoretical fatwas cannot sufficiently counter what I call “kinetic” sharia, consisting of stories and actions carried out by authoritative Muslim figures in early Islam, on which Isis relies heavily to justify its ideology._

*Isis has reached new depths of depravity. But there is a brutal logic behind it*

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...state-ideology-sharia-syria-iraq-jordan-pilot


----------



## Julia (9 February 2015)

bellenuit said:


> The sad thing is that the women victims of Islamic barbarity have been abandoned by what should be their supporters in the West.
> 
> - The feminist movement is completely silent.
> - Political leaders of all persuasions, though they may voice condemnation of the extremists, ignore the everyday barbarity perpetuated in countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen and some North African countries.




So true.  After the Paris murders we had the hypocritical spectacle of world leaders standing with linked arms in defence of the right of satirists to express themselves, including representatives of Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both vile practitioners of human rights abuses.

A few days ago, I came across a lone suggestion on the internet which said:
"How about 'Je suis Nigeria'?"

Says it all, really.


----------



## Wysiwyg (10 February 2015)

bellenuit said:


> The sad thing is that the women victims of Islamic barbarity have been abandoned by what should be their supporters in the West.



I watched a video a couple days ago showing a Muslim woman pleading with ISIS to give the Jordanian pilot the _khazouk_ which is an impalement of the you know what. The females such as this could be fearful and act this way to appear united or they could be like the males and be actually consumed with hatred. This could be the last large scale return to barbarity this modern world sees.


----------



## bellenuit (10 February 2015)

Afghan women in 1950 vs. 2013. Enough said....


----------



## bellenuit (10 February 2015)

*It’s time to fight religion: Toxic drivel, useful media idiots, and the real story about faith and violence*

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/08/its..._and_the_real_story_about_faith_and_violence/

Some quotes very relevant to what is discussed here.....

_Rarely have murderers so clearly manifested their motive. With the exclamations they made as they carried out their atrocity ”” “Allahu Akbar!” and “On a vengÃ© le prophÃ¨te Mohamed, on a tuÃ© Charlie Hebdo!” (The prophet Muhammad has been avenged, we have killed Charlie Hebdo!) ”” the attackers explicitly told us they were killing for Islam, and imparted precisely the lesson they intended: Do not insult or ridicule our faith or you will pay the supreme price. 
_
.............

_Worse still is the offense that denying faith’s role in atrocities inflicts on commonsense. No one doubts people when they say their religion inspires them to attend mosque or church, make charitable donations, volunteer in hospitals or serve in orphanages. We should take them at their word when they name it, as did the Charlie Hebdo assassins, as  the mainspring for their lethal acts of violence. We should not toss aside Ockham’s razor and concoct additional factors that supposedly commandeered their behavior. The Charlie Hebdo killers may have come from poor Parisian banlieues, they may have experienced racial discrimination, and they may have even been stung by disdain from “the dominant secular French culture,” yet they murdered not shouting about any of these things, but about “avenging the Prophet Muhammad.” They murdered for Islam._


----------



## Bintang (11 February 2015)

*Nobody Dares Admit That ISIS Crimes Are Based on Islam* - Video from MEMRI TV

Short extract. Full video below:
_
…. Nobody should be shocked by what I am saying. All the evidence and references that ISIS provides to justify its crimes, its barbarity, and its horrifying, criminal, and despicable violence …... claiming that they can be found in the books of history, jurisprudence, and law, *are, indeed, to be found there,* and *anyone who says otherwise is lying.*
When they kill a person claiming that he is an infidel, when they rape women, when they kill prisoners, and when they slaughter and decapitate people, they say that the Prophet Muhammad said so. *Indeed, the Prophet said so!*

 None of those clerics who purport to be moderate, ….  have the courage – *not a single grain of courage – to admit that these things are indeed to be found in Islamic sources and are morally wrong*._


----------



## noco (14 February 2015)

The Japanese are certainly anti Muslim and have strict rules to prevent their foot hold in that country.

Australia should have taken a leaf out of their book but it is too late now.



*Japan - some interesting facts.

* In just ten years??? Hiroshima returned to what it was economically vibrant before the fall of the atomic bomb. 

* Japan prevents the use of mobile phones in trains, restaurants and indoors. 

* For first to sixth primary year Japanese students must learn ethics in dealing with people. 

* Even though one of the richest people in the world, the Japanese do not have servants. The parents are responsible for the house and children. 

* There is no examination from the first to the third primary level because the goal of education is to instill concepts and character building. 

* If you go to a buffet restaurant in Japan you will notice people only eat as much as they need without any waste because food must not be wasted. 
* The rate of delayed trains in Japan is about 7 seconds per year!!  The Japanese appreciate the value of time and are very punctual to minutes and seconds. 
* Children in schools brush their teeth (sterile) and clean their teeth after a meal at school, teaching them to maintain their health from an early age. 
* Japanese students take half an hour to finish their meals to ensure proper digestion because these students are the future of Japan. 
The Japanese focus on maintaining their culture. Therefore, 
* No political leader or a prime minister from an Islamic nation has visited Japan  not the Ayatollah of Iran, the King of Saudi Arabia or even a Saudi Prince! 
* Japan is a country keeping Islam at bay by putting strict restrictions on Islam  and ALL Muslims. 
1) Japan is the only nation that does not give citizenship to Muslims.  
2) In Japan permanent residency is not given to Muslims.  
3) There is a strong ban on the propagation of Islam in Japan  
4) In the University of Japan, Arabic or any Islamic language is not taught.  
5) One cannot import a 'Koran' published in the Arabic language.  
6) According to data published by the Japanese government, it has given temporary residency to only 2 lakhs, Muslims, who must follow the Japanese Law of the Land. These Muslims should speak Japanese and carry their religious rituals in their homes.  
7) Japan is the only country in the world that has a negligible number of embassies in Islamic countries.  
8) Muslims residing in Japan are the employees of foreign companies.  
9) Even today, visas are not granted to Muslim doctors, engineers or managers sent by foreign companies.  
10) In the majority of companies it is stated in their regulations that no Muslims should apply for a job.  
11) The Japanese government is of the opinion that Muslims are fundamentalist, and even in the era of globalization they are not willing to change their  Muslim laws.  
12) Muslims cannot even rent a house in Japan.  
13) If anyone comes to know that his neighbor is a Muslim then the whole neighborhood stays alert.  
14) No one can start an Islamic cell or Arabic 'Madrasa' in Japan .  
15) There is no Sharia law in Japan .  
16) If a Japanese woman marries a Muslim, she is considered an outcast forever.  
17) According to Mr. Kumiko Yagi, Professor of Arab/Islamic Studies at Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, " There is a mind frame in Japan that Islam is a very narrow minded religion and one should stay away from it."  

The Japanese might have lost the war, but they are in charge of their own country.

There are no bombs going off in crowded business centers, "Honor Killings," nor  killing of innocent children or anyone else. 

Something to think about.
*


----------



## gordon2007 (14 February 2015)

So the sarin attacks in 1995 didn't really happen? The JRA is just a figment of the imagination?  






noco said:


> There are no bombs going off in crowded business centers, "Honor Killings," nor  killing of innocent children or anyone else.
> 
> Something to think about.
> [/B]




What a complete and total ignorant statement.


----------



## noco (14 February 2015)

gordon2007 said:


> So the sarin attacks in 1995 didn't really happen? The JRA is just a figment of the imagination?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Really...20 years ago????????...Can you disprove the contents of that statement?


----------



## gordon2007 (15 February 2015)

Yes.

Go to the Japanese islamic centre online and peruse...http://islamcenter.or.jp/en/about-us/

Try reading this....http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/Japan-Muslim.htm#.VN-7EuaUfAk

Or go to the International Islamia School Otsuka and read the current curriculum here http://iiso-jp.org/

Do you want more proof? If so, try doing a 30 second google search. 





noco said:


> Can you disprove the contents of that statement?


----------



## chiff (15 February 2015)

I heard recently that the US paid compensation after a wedding procession was devastated by a drone attack in Yemen.The US commentator said that they all knew that the rise in Islamic extremism in the west was "blow-back"or revenge.
I believe that the US are actively bombing in at least 6 Muslim countries at the moment.


----------



## noco (15 February 2015)

gordon2007 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Go to the Japanese islamic centre online and peruse...http://islamcenter.or.jp/en/about-us/
> 
> ...




The fist link dates back to 1974.

The second link is all according to the Islamic Center of Japan website and not by the Japanese.

Of course Islam does not want the world to know the truth and therefore has instigated a counter.


----------



## moXJO (15 February 2015)

noco said:


> The fist link dates back to 1974.
> 
> The second link is all according to the Islamic Center of Japan website and not by the Japanese.
> 
> Of course Islam does not want the world to know the truth and therefore has instigated a counter.




That list wasn't true.


> The Japanese Constitution states that
> 第１４条
> すべて国民は、法の下に平等であって、人種、信条、性別、社会的身分又は門地により、政治的、経済的又は社会関係において、差別されない。
> Article 14:
> ...




But they have tight laws over church and state



> "There is no personal (Sharia) law in Japan."
> 
> This is correct. Even more so than the U.S., separation of Church and State is very clear in the Japanese Constitution and observed strictly by most public institutions. This includes public schools. There are no mentions of any gods or religious symbols on currency, government buildings, or flags. The same Constitutional article that gives religious freedom to everybody also defines the limits:
> 第２０条
> ...




The other factors that would stop many from radicalizing in Japan is that everyone is time poor. 
Bosses don't allow prayer 5 times a day. 
They work long hours. 
Efficient law and order. 
And Japan has a strong national identity.


Interestingly enough if it is true a few middle eastern countries and Indonesia banned Russell Crowes film 'Noah'.
Religion and state should not mix.


----------



## Bintang (16 February 2015)

*The history of Islam in Europe and how it affects us to this day.*


----------



## Bintang (19 February 2015)

“*What ISIS Really Wants*,” by Graeme Wood, The Atlantic, March 2015
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

_“The above article is quite extraordinary since it represents one of the first  mainstream media acknowledgments …… that jihadis use the texts and teachings of Islamic doctrine to justify their actions and make a case that obviously convinces many young Muslims, that they represent the truest and most authentic expression of Islam"_



Bintang said:


> _The most authentic form of Islam being practiced in the world today is that being practiced by ISIS.  So if you don’t want to take the time to read up on what kind of a human being Mohammad really was and how he actually lived his life, just read all the media reports about ISIS and it will give you a very clear picture. _




*"Will the author, Graeme Wood now be smeared and derided as an “Islamophobe” and a “bigot” for stating some obvious truths?”*

The above article is a long read. Here are some excerpts:

_…The reality is that *the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic*. …… the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means *following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail*.

*Denying the holiness of the Koran or the prophecies of Muhammad is straightforward apostasy.* But Zarqawi and the state he spawned take the position that many other acts can remove a Muslim from Islam. These include, in certain cases, selling alcohol or drugs, wearing Western clothes or shaving one’s beard, voting in an election—even for a Muslim candidate—and being lax about calling other people apostates. Being a Shiite, as most Iraqi Arabs are, meets the standard as well, because the Islamic State regards Shiism as innovation, and to innovate on the Koran is to deny its initial perfection. (The Islamic State claims that common Shiite practices, such as worship at the graves of imams and public self-flagellation, have no basis in the Koran or in the example of the Prophet.) *That means roughly 200 million Shia are marked for death. So too are the heads of state of every Muslim country, who have elevated man-made law above Sharia by running for office or enforcing laws not made by God.*

… *the Islamic State is committed to purifying the world by killing vast numbers of people.* The lack of objective reporting from its territory makes the true extent of the slaughter unknowable, but social-media posts from the region suggest that individual executions happen more or less continually, and mass executions every few weeks. *Muslim “apostates” are the most common victims.*

Many mainstream Muslim organizations have gone so far as to say the Islamic State is, in fact, un-Islamic. It is, of course, reassuring to know that the vast majority of Muslims have zero interest in replacing Hollywood movies with public executions as evening entertainment. But Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the group’s theology, told me, “embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion” that neglects “what their religion has historically and legally required.” *Many denials of the Islamic State’s religious nature, he said, are rooted in an “interfaith-Christian-nonsense tradition.”*

All Muslims acknowledge that Muhammad’s earliest conquests were not tidy affairs, and that the laws of war passed down in the Koran and in the narrations of the Prophet’s rule were calibrated to fit a turbulent and violent time. In Haykel’s estimation, *the fighters of the Islamic State are authentic throwbacks to early Islam and are faithfully reproducing its norms of war.* This behavior includes a number of practices that modern Muslims tend to prefer not to acknowledge as integral to their sacred texts. *“Slavery, crucifixion, and beheadings are not something that freakish [jihadists] are cherry-picking from the medieval tradition,*” Haykel said.

Islamic State fighters “are smack in the middle of the medieval tradition and are bringing it wholesale into the present day.”* Leaders of the Islamic State have taken emulation of Muhammad as strict duty, and have revived traditions that have been dormant for hundreds of years.*_


----------



## noco (4 March 2015)

Here are some interesting videos and how Muslim children are brain washed.

http://enzaferreri.blogspot.com.au/...-children-learning-to-kill.html#axzz3TOSbX01C


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## Bintang (4 March 2015)

noco said:


> Here are some interesting videos and how Muslim children are brain washed.
> 
> http://enzaferreri.blogspot.com.au/...-children-learning-to-kill.html#axzz3TOSbX01C




Looks like there is a perfect new job opportunity for Gillian Triggs.  Move her to the International HRC and assign her the task of conducting an international inquiry into the treatment of children by ISIS.
I would love to see the youtube videos of her interrogating the ISIS leaders  - especially when she complains about them using ‘armed guards’


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## bellenuit (14 April 2015)

*The Critics of Islam Were Right: An Apology to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, Bill Maher and Other So-Called Islamophobes*

http://m.christianpost.com/news/the...her-and-other-so-called-islamophobes--137416/


----------



## luutzu (14 April 2015)

bellenuit said:


> *The Critics of Islam Were Right: An Apology to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, Bill Maher and Other So-Called Islamophobes*
> 
> http://m.christianpost.com/news/the...her-and-other-so-called-islamophobes--137416/




Always good to hear confessions of those who were lost and now are found


----------



## noco (17 April 2015)

The war in Australia between Muslims and Christians and infidels has started thanks to Julia Gillard for allowing so many Muslims in to Australia, many are now well known terrorists and she sanctioned it to happen to divide the community.

 Four churches are touched in Melbourne and a mosque in Toowoomba is touched in retaliation.

IMHO, it will get worse.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...woomba-overnight/story-fnihsrf2-1227307358957


----------



## bellenuit (18 April 2015)




----------



## wayneL (18 April 2015)

Experiencing cognitive dissonance.

I hate that Islam may have a disproportionate effect on our anglo/celtic culture.... but I know several moderate muslims I call friends.


----------



## basilio (21 April 2015)

noco said:


> The war in Australia between Muslims and Christians and infidels has started thanks to Julia Gillard for allowing so many Muslims in to Australia, many are now well known terrorists and she sanctioned it to happen to divide the community.
> 
> Four churches are touched in Melbourne and a mosque in Toowoomba is touched in retaliation.
> 
> ...




Not quite right Noco is it - associating the torched churches in melbourne with the fire in Toowoomba.

The Melbourne attacks appear to be the work of people very angry at the pedophile priests who had ministered in those churches.

The Toowoomba attack on the other hand looks like the work of our own homegrown KKK branch

And your rubbish re Julia Giliard ? Pure twisted hate talk. Any more petrol to throw on the fire ?


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## gordon2007 (15 May 2015)

From the main man himself...

“Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting,”

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle...-audio-recording/story-fnh81ifq-1227355856038


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## Tisme (19 May 2015)

I rec'd this today from one of my regular correspondents who likes to rail and tirade against the machine. It is so hasty he didn't even have time to delete the American connotation, merely append the message with Australia. 




> *WE, THE STUPID*
> 
> The war started in the 7th century and lasted through the 17th.  I would contend it never stopped but historically the facts below are correct.  This is why I choke when I hear someone say we will defeat or contain these Islamic terrorists in a few years or even 30 years as recently stated by Leon Panetta.
> If the latest batch of murders, beheadings, and killing of innocent Christians has shocked you, maybe you should read this compilation of historical facts about the hatred of Muslims.
> ...


----------



## dutchie (22 May 2015)

ISIS complain about poor quality steel as overused beheading knives go blunt.

Find other ways to execute prisoners

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3090886/ISIS-execute-man-BAZOOKA-shocking-new-video.html


----------



## DB008 (23 May 2015)

*ISIS leader: Islam 'never a religion of peace,' it's a 'religion of fighting'​*


> A recording of Islamic State of Iraq and Syria's leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, which the Pentagon has not confirmed is genuine, calls for all Muslims to join the fight agains the "infidels," saying, "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting."
> 
> Al-Baghdadi had not been heard from until this voice recording since a March coalition airstrike where he was reportedly injured. As the former leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, al-Baghdadi was known for defying the larger al Qaeda organization and forming the Islamic State, against al-Qaeda's wishes, and was one of many former al Qaeda members that the U.S. released a few years ago from its prison Camp Bucca, in Umm Qasr, Iraq.




http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/isis-leader-islam-never-a-religion-of-peace-its-a-religion-of-fighting/article/2564625​


----------



## MrBurns (23 May 2015)

What a bunch of disaffected ratbags IS is , they go into towns and destroy historic artefacts, they are cowards of the highest order beating, raping and murdering women and children and taking heads off and torturing unarmed men.

Cowards with faces covered.

All in the name if Islam.

It is an evil religion and anyone found to be preaching the radical side, and I mean anyone , should be deported or detained indefinitely and don't let them hide behind "free speech" they aren't entitled to that privilege.


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## Tink (23 May 2015)

Good to see you back, MrBurns


----------



## MrBurns (23 May 2015)

Tink said:


> Good to see you back, MrBurns




Hi Tink  starting to feel a little like home again, but without Julia...


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## Tink (23 May 2015)

MrBurns said:


> Hi Tink  starting to feel a little like home again, but without Julia...




Yes, it has been a change, we have all felt it.

Glad to hear, and good seeing your input back on the boards


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> I rec'd this today from one of my regular correspondents who likes to rail and tirade against the machine. It is so hasty he didn't even have time to delete the American connotation, merely append the message with Australia.



The gist of the story is the perpetuation of the radical beliefs. We see today the insanity being downloaded into impressionable minds which guarantees, until their death, the continuation of the core belief. Whatever that is I do not know but they believe it to death. The only thing I would risk death for is defence of self and country.


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## MrBurns (24 May 2015)

Tink said:


> Glad to hear, and good seeing your input back on the boards




.....


----------



## Tisme (28 June 2015)

Another attack from the peaceful religious un Tunisia

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33297440


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## DB008 (18 January 2016)

*Allah allows Muslims to rape non-Muslim women in order to humiliate them,
claims Islamic professor​*


> Washington: A female Islamic professor has claimed that Allah has allowed Muslim men to rape non-Muslim women in order to 'humiliate' them, report stated.
> 
> Suad Saleh, who is a professor from the renowned Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, made the claims during an interview to a TV channel.
> 
> ...





http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/allah-allows-muslims-to-rape-non-muslim-women-in-order-to-humiliate-them-claims-islamic-professor_1846312.html​


----------



## bellenuit (18 January 2016)

*Protecting Pakistan’s Girls Isn’t ‘Blasphemy’*

https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/01/18/dispatches-protecting-pakistans-girls-isnt-blasphemy


----------



## SirRumpole (18 January 2016)

bellenuit said:


> *Protecting Pakistan’s Girls Isn’t ‘Blasphemy’*
> 
> https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/01/18/dispatches-protecting-pakistans-girls-isnt-blasphemy




I find it a bit hypocritical to criticise Pakistan for having 16 as the marriageable age for women when the age of consent in Australia is 16.

If girls can have sex at 16, shouldn't they be able to marry at that age ?

Personally I think the age of consent should be raised to 18. Having children taking their own children to school is not good for either the mother or child.


----------



## Bill M (24 February 2016)

I missed this story and when I read it today was disgusted. Good on the veteran for taking care of his family, job well done.

===
8 Muslim men attack decorated Australian veteran and his wife on Victorian beach, Australia Day

A RETIRED lieutenant-colonel and Iraq veteran is being investigated after a melee with fishermen on the Surf Coast.

Kyle Tyrrell, 47, suffered minor injuries and says his wife, Liana, was punched in the face in Sunday’s conflict at the Cosy Corner beach at Torquay.

At least one of the fishermen was taken to hospital.

On social media, Mr Tyrrell wrote of what happened and urged people to protect “our women ... our country is being overrun by Muslim scum”.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2016/01/8-muslim-man-attack-decorated-australian-veteran-and-his-wife-on-victorian-beach-australia-day.html
===


----------



## MrBurns (24 February 2016)

It's got to be said again, over and over, our laws are weak, these people laugh at us when they go to court.

We need a new breed of magistrate/judge backed by laws with teeth.

I'm surprised there hasn't been retribution against some of this filth, maybe there has and we don't hear about it.


----------



## Wysiwyg (24 February 2016)

Bill M said:


> I missed this story and when I read it today was disgusted. Good on the veteran for taking care of his family, job well done.



If concerned about the illegal/criminal activities of others, the only way to deal with it is to notify the relevant authorities. These confrontations happen with all ethnicities and is the nature of perpetrators to react aggressively when confronted, even by police.


----------



## MrBurns (24 February 2016)

I guess you've all seen this -


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2016)

MrBurns said:


> I guess you've all seen this -





Fark. 

I like that "manufactured Islamic grievances" phrase. Classic that one.


----------



## MrBurns (24 February 2016)

luutzu said:


> Fark.
> 
> I like that "manufactured Islamic grievances" phrase. Classic that one.




He has done a few - 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWOkEnBl5TO4SCLfSlosjgg


----------



## Tisme (24 February 2016)

MrBurns said:


> I guess you've all seen this -
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCXHPKhRCVg




He's entertaining, I'll give him that


----------



## DB008 (24 February 2016)

*State-funded Danish Muslim school tells girls not to date​*


> The private Muslim school Iqra Privatskole, located in Copenhagen’s NÃ¸rrebro district, received 18.5 million kroner in state-funded support in 2015. But the school’s outlook on dating may put future funding in jeopardy.
> 
> The school’s psychologist told Radio24syv in an interview that the school tells its female pupils not to have boyfriends.
> 
> ...




http://www.thelocal.dk/20160222/state-funded-danish-muslim-school-bans-dating​


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> He's entertaining, I'll give him that




He's talented too.

People tend to say stuff like that only when drunk - he does it with a straight face and no slurred speech at all. Heck, I've been drafting a YouTube video and I really have to work at it - making sure that when I say stuff out loud, and hearing myself and thinking about it, it have to make sense and somewhat align with the facts. This guy just sit in front of a camera and blurb out golden nuggets with ease.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2016)

luutzu said:


> He's talented too.
> 
> People tend to say stuff like that only when drunk - he does it with a straight face and no slurred speech at all. Heck, I've been drafting a YouTube video and I really have to work at it - making sure that when I say stuff out loud, and hearing myself and thinking about it, it have to make sense and somewhat align with the facts. This guy just sit in front of a camera and blurb out golden nuggets with ease.




So do we know who he is ? 

National Front leader or anything like that ?


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> So do we know who he is ?
> 
> National Front leader or anything like that ?




He was a comedian, no joke   So the Irishman got it right.

From his website he said, and I am not making these up at all, that he's "...a carbon-based life form... walk upright and warm-blooded..." and live on planet Earth. hahaha... Should have stick with comedy Pat.

Ah man, he really test my faith in self-education. I don't have much respect for people simply because they got some degree or go to this uni or work in that job (OK, "profession")... but listening to Pat and his honesty about never having a formal education and "...But it also means I don’t have a great deal of what you might call actual knowledge."... maybe a bit of formal schooling would do some good man.


More from his website: http://www.patcondell.net/about-me/



Another golden nugget:


----------



## poverty (25 February 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> The only thing I would risk death for is defence of self and country.




For me it's self, wife and cat.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 March 2016)

See a large quantity of army jerk clothing destined for isil was seized in Spain. That shouldn't deter them belting their heads against a wall some more, just doing so in thongs and tee shirts.


----------



## dutchie (7 March 2016)

Looks like there is only one real feminist in Australia, the rest are just wannabes.

Radical Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir no longer allowed to segregate women after tribunal ruling.

RADICAL Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir will not be allowed to segregate women at its events after a NSW tribunal ruled in favour of a female journalist.

Former News Limited journalist Alison Bevege sued the group and five members for sexual discrimination after she was forced to sit in the women and children’s section at a public lecture she reported on in 2014.

The freelancer called her win “a victory for secular law over theocratic fascism.”

The NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal found Ms Bevege was treated unfavourably on the grounds of her sex in contravention of section 33 of the NSW Anti-Discrimination Act.

However she was not awarded $100,000 in compensation she initially claimed.

The court ruled that group spokesman Ismail al-Wahwah was personally liable for the discrimination.


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...g/news-story/629c9ef1c6e1321ba5a75655d104de99


Well done Alison Bevege !


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2016)

I love getting these emails 



> A German's View on Islam - worth reading. This is one of the best explanations of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Gringotts Bank (8 March 2016)

When I heard Trump on the news talk about ISIS drowning people in cages, I stupidly googled it.

It's the most horrifying and sad thing I've ever seen.  I feel really upset about it.  What the hell is the world coming to?

The use of torture has no place anywhere in the world under any circumstances.


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> When I heard Trump on the news talk about ISIS drowning people in cages, I stupidly googled it.
> 
> It's the most horrifying and sad thing I've ever seen.  I feel really upset about it.  What the hell is the world coming to?
> 
> The use of torture has no place anywhere in the world under any circumstances.




For a country that pats itself on the back for waging guerilla warfare against the mother country's troops back in the day, I find it amusing they sprout playing by the rules as if they have a pedigree to protect .




> ICKERSON: "The reason that waterboarding was -- number of reasons but one was because worry was that if America does that then our soldiers, American hostages will be treated even worse that's the argument, what do you think that have?"
> TRUMP: "Killing ourselves when they capture them. They're doing that anyway. If that were the case, we won't do it you don't do it but we're not playing by those -- did somebody tell ISIS, we're going to treat your guys well would you please do us favor treat our guys well? They don't do that. We're not playing by -- we are playing by rules but they have no rules. It's very hard to win."
> DICKERSON: "That would separate us from the savages."
> TRUMP: We have to beat the savages."
> ...


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> I love getting these emails




How did you get on these lists McGraw? Is there like an old white people list or something, haha...


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> How did you get on these lists McGraw? Is there like an old white people list or something, haha...




Very old relatives who have discovered the internet and the boundless opportunities to lament the passing of Empire and the good 'ol white Australia days.


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> Very old relatives who have discovered the internet and the boundless opportunities to lament the passing of Empire and the good 'ol white Australia days.




Isn't there an Senior filter or something? haha... wont be so funny when I get there.

oh yea, apologies to other old farts who aren't, ahem...


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2016)

> ICKERSON: "The reason that waterboarding was -- number of reasons but one was because worry was that if America does that then our soldiers, American hostages will be treated even worse that's the argument, what do you think that have?"
> TRUMP: "Killing ourselves when they capture them. They're doing that anyway. If that were the case, we won't do it you don't do it but we're not playing by those -- did somebody tell ISIS, we're going to treat your guys well would you please do us favor treat our guys well? They don't do that. We're not playing by -- we are playing by rules but they have no rules. It's very hard to win."
> DICKERSON: "That would separate us from the savages."
> TRUMP: We have to beat the savages."
> ...





Wow. Trump has all the makings of a Bush Jr. presidency. Though Obama kinda got ahead of the torture and waterboarding and Guantanamo image problem - he just blow them up instead of capturing and torturing them.


----------



## dutchie (28 March 2016)

This is what happens to "moderates"

Muslim newsagent's killer 'travelled 200 miles to knife him'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Easter-message-Christians.html#ixzz44B4vegQl

That's why they don't say boo.


----------



## Tisme (29 March 2016)

dutchie said:


> This is what happens to "moderates"
> 
> Muslim newsagent's killer 'travelled 200 miles to knife him'
> 
> ...




No meaningful deterrent for the scum. It doesn't have to be a clever solution either ...like the three strike rule in the USA that made it a lot more enjoyable for people like me in places like New York, surely someone with the power can do something meaningful, rather than selling the current civilised generation of westerners down to allow generational change to take effect amongst the savages who are stuck in the 6th century saharan hell hole.


----------



## luutzu (29 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> No meaningful deterrent for the scum. It doesn't have to be a clever solution either ...like the three strike rule in the USA that made it a lot more enjoyable for people like me in places like New York, surely someone with the power can do something meaningful, rather than selling the current civilised generation of westerners down to allow generational change to take effect amongst the savages who are stuck in the 6th century saharan hell hole.




A high price other people have to pay for your enjoyment there McGill.


----------



## Tisme (29 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> A high price other people have to pay for your enjoyment there McGill.





Don't do the crime unless you can do the time.

It's not an Arab's fault he is born Arabic, but the least he can do is try to make up for it by rejecting primitive instructions from a time even (possibly) more primitive than the middle east is today. If the religious instruction was from some amoeba two million years ago I reckon there would be following in the the old countries, just because that was a time of enlightenment that we somehow lost because of evolution ...fricken wierd how people with an adult sized brain can still constrain it to that of a embecile.


----------



## noco (30 March 2016)

This guy is great. MUST WATCH 



I wish there would be more like him this side of the Atlantic. Over here we seem to coddle our muslim horde and cringe when we are called racist.
We really have to quit this kind of behavior. 


HE IS DEFINITELY GOING TO NEED POLICE PROTECTION AFTER THIS ONE!!!


https://dotsub.com/media/72457cbc-fe18-4053-ae3f-6c7639cf4e79/embed/


----------



## wayneL (30 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> A high price other people have to pay for your enjoyment there McGill.




So in your opinion people should not have to pay a price for common law transgressions?

Effectively, you are saying law abiding citizens should happily tolerate their victimhood at the hands of criminals.

That's just putrid boyo.


----------



## Macquack (30 March 2016)

wayneL said:


> So in your opinion people should not have to pay a price for common law transgressions?
> 
> Effectively, you are saying law abiding citizens should happily tolerate their victimhood at the hands of criminals.
> 
> That's just putrid *boyo*.




I take offence from my good colleague luutzu being called a boy.


----------



## luutzu (30 March 2016)

wayneL said:


> So in your opinion people should not have to pay a price for common law transgressions?
> 
> Effectively, you are saying law abiding citizens should happily tolerate their victimhood at the hands of criminals.
> 
> That's just putrid boyo.




I didn't say not pay for crimes. I said high price they've paid.

The three strikes rules and mandatory sentencing locked up a lot of youths, for many years at a time; and in most cases, for minor non-violent crimes like drug dealing or theft/burglary or got caught with certain grams of weed.

You put stupid kids who made mistakes or just minors with not much to do beside joining gangs... you lock them up for a few years no matter what the nature of their crime is - as long as it's considered a crime... well you destroy lives.

First you destroy their lives because criminal tend not to be able to get any job or go any place; then you destroy other people's lives because even criminals need to eat and have shelter and those costs money. Can't find a job, where do they turn? More crimes, worst crimes. Society pays.

Then society pay for prisons to lock them up; for guards to guard them; for private for-profit prison shareholders' demand for growth and margins and returns.

That's why Bill Clinton was so welcomed by the private prison industry in the US. He nationalised the three-strike rules, almost doubled the US prison population over his eight years. And ka-chinks ka chinks for some; life time of poverty and prison round-about for millions of once stupid weed smoking, gansta wannabe kids.

----

But with regard to my comment to Tisme... it wasn't critical of him. I think I know his sense of "humour"; that and the bi-polar condition


----------



## luutzu (30 March 2016)

Macquack said:


> I take offence from my good colleague luutzu being called a boy.




Thanks comrade 

Not nice Sifu.


----------



## wayneL (31 March 2016)

For your edification MacQuack

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=boyo

I see the take offense at trifles industry is alive and well


----------



## explod (31 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> Thanks comrade
> 
> Not nice Sifu.




Excelleng posts.  You obviously have had good experience in working with people sociological l.


----------



## Tisme (31 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> That's why Bill Clinton was so welcomed by the private prison industry in the US. He nationalised the three-strike rules, almost doubled the US prison population over his eight years. And ka-chinks ka chinks for some; life time of poverty and prison round-about for millions of once stupid weed smoking, gansta wannabe kids.
> 
> ----
> 
> But with regard to my comment to Tisme... it wasn't critical of him. I think I know his sense of "humour"; that and the bi-polar condition




Crims make a choice. Just like raising kids you give them the benefit of the doubt first time, apply some gravitas punishment the second time and third time WWIII erupts. 

It's all well and good proposing we all take a equal share hit from the deliberate criminal behaviour of the few, but why should we stall our civilised pleasures because of the few ... that is what middle eastern, african and oriental peoples do and they are tragic examples of go nowhere cultures with the constant sword of Damocles hanging over their heads.

How many people need to be mugged, raped, permanently damaged and scarred before we are supposed to say that the tribe can no longer function and the poison must be removed? Of course you don't ask a social worker, that would require risking loss of job as the need dried up.


----------



## wayneL (31 March 2016)

Exactly Tisyou. Could not agree more.


----------



## Value Collector (31 March 2016)

wayneL said:


> I see the take offense at trifles industry is alive and well
> 
> View attachment 66169




I find that meme kind of confusing.

When you think back to our "ancestors", Crimes such as Blasphemy were punishable by death, they obviously were not immune to being offended by words or images, and were far more likely to ban books etc or punish people for the use of swear words and the like.


----------



## wayneL (31 March 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I find that meme kind of confusing.
> 
> When you think back to our "ancestors", Crimes such as Blasphemy were punishable by death, they obviously were not immune to being offended by words or images, and were far more likely to ban books etc or punish people for the use of swear words and the like.




Lets not confuse the message by introducing facts eh?


----------



## luutzu (31 March 2016)

explod said:


> Excelleng posts.  You obviously have had good experience in working with people sociological l.




I was supposed to be a Psychologist but living in a Capitalist society does drew me to the dark side and so decided to waste my life and do nothing but move money around.


----------



## luutzu (31 March 2016)

wayneL said:


> Exactly Tisyou. Could not agree more.




Sifu, be careful agreeing with Tisme. You'd need to check whether he'd taken his medication for the day or not.


----------



## luutzu (31 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> Crims make a choice. Just like raising kids you give them the benefit of the doubt first time, apply some gravitas punishment the second time and third time WWIII erupts.
> 
> It's all well and good proposing we all take a equal share hit from the deliberate criminal behaviour of the few, but why should we stall our civilised pleasures because of the few ... that is what middle eastern, african and oriental peoples do and they are tragic examples of go nowhere cultures with the constant sword of Damocles hanging over their heads.
> 
> How many people need to be mugged, raped, permanently damaged and scarred before we are supposed to say that the tribe can no longer function and the poison must be removed? Of course you don't ask a social worker, that would require risking loss of job as the need dried up.




Oh, it's not the big guns and unabashed drive to civilised the coloured people that somehow made them the "nowhere" cultures losing their land, their oil, their assets... but gaining them warlords, generalisimos, terrorists, drones... all over their friendly skies?

Just to be fair, all cultures and civilisations does it, so don't feel too bad alright?

---

Don't think I proposed anything. Was saying that being "tough" and being rational and effective are very different with those 3 strike rules.

In implementing such laws, politicians are playing politics with people's lives; repay their donors and friends very handsomely with constant stream of human feedstock to profit on; and society is no where safer than before.

As Hsun Tzu (I think, it's one of them Tzu) once said, it is the responsibility of Government to set good examples, the provide opportunities... so that the governed can walk the Way. To fail to provide opportunities, to impoverish the state and drive the People towards crimes... to then blame, punish and imprison them for it, that's messed up bro.

But I guess some would call it crime and punishment, Capitalist style. Where criminals bare all the responsibility but the gov't that is supposed to represent their interests and provide them with security... well the Masters is never at fault.


----------



## bellenuit (13 April 2016)

A sample of the evil thinking, opinions and actions from within Islam. Of course it all can be forgiven as it is all due to western support for Israel's actions in the Palestinian territories.


*Islamic Scholar Riles Florida Community, Proposes ‘Compassionate’ Death for LGBT People (VIDEO)*

http://brewminate.com/islamic-schol...es-compassionate-death-for-lgbt-people-video/

*Saudi Arabia: Gang Rape Victim Sentenced to 200 Lashes & Six Months in Jail. *

https://unitedhumanists.com/2016/04...00-lashes-six-months-in-jail-in-saudi-arabia/

.... and attitudes of Muslims based on the respected Pew Research.


----------



## noco (13 April 2016)

*Subject: Fwd: U. S. Muslims and Trump
Most people are not aware of the facts stated below, therefore I am sharing this with all of you.
Here is something to think about, and why so many Americans support Donald Trump !!
(This information has all been checked, then double checked... it is 100% Correct.)
That's why there is such an alarm within US government, since Trump's statement about temporary suspension of migration of Muslims to US till US authorities make sure there is a proper concept of safe penetration of US territory.
People are stunned to learn that the head of the U.S. CIA is a Muslim!
Do hope this wakes up some!
You mean until it hits you like a ton of bricks read it again, until you understand!
We now have a Muslim government.
John Brennan, current head of the CIA converted to Islam while stationed in Saudi Arabia.
Obama's top adviser, Valerie Jarrett, is a Muslim who was born in Iran where her parents still live.
Hillary Clinton's top adviser, Huma Abedin is a Muslim, whose mother and brother are involved in the now outlawed Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
Assistant Secretary for Policy Development for Homeland Security, Arif Aikhan, is a Muslim.
Homeland Security Adviser, Mohammed Elibiary, is a Muslim.
Obama adviser and founder of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, Salam al-Marayati, is a Muslim.
Obama's Sharia Czar, Imam Mohamed Magid, of the Islamic Society of North America is a Muslim..
Advisory Council on Faith-Based Neighborhood Partnerships, Eboo Patel, is a Muslim.
1/13/15:?? Nancy Pelosi announced she will appoint Rep Andre Carson, D-Ind, as the first Muslim lawmaker on the House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. It would make Carson the first Muslim to serve on the committee that receives intelligence on the threat of Islamic militants in the Middle East! He has suggested
that U.S. schools should be modeled after Islamic madrassas, where education is based on the Quran!!!
And last but not least, our closet Muslim himself, Barack Hussein Obama.
It's questionable if Obama ever officially took the oath of office when he was sworn in. He didn't repeat the oath properly to defend ournation and our Constitution. Later the Democrats claimed he was given the oath again in private.
CIA director John Brennan took his oath on a copy of the Constitution, not a Bible..??
Valarie Jarret wrote her college thesis on how she wanted to change America into a Muslim friendly nation and she is a Obama top advisor.
Congressman, Keith Ellison took his oath on a copy of the Qur'an.
Congresswoman Michele Bachman was vilified and verbally tarred and feathered by Democrats when she voiced her concern about Muslims taking over our government.
Considering all these appointments, it would explain why Obama and his minions are systematically destroying our nation, supporting radical Muslim groups worldwide, opening our southern border, and turning a blind eye to the genocide being perpetrated on Christians all over Africa and the Middle East.
The more damage Obama does, the more arrogant he's become!
Our nation and our government has been infiltrated by people who want to destroy us. It can only get worse!
If you fail to pass this one on, there's something wrong.. Somewhere!
In his book he said, "if it comes down to it, I would side with the Muslims".  (And still, some insist he isn’t Muslim!)
Common sense doesn't grow in everyone's garden.
*

Could this happen in Australia?.......You can bet your boots it could....We already have one ALP Muslim in Federal parliament who took his oath on the Koran.


----------



## Tisme (13 April 2016)

noco said:


> *
> People are stunned to learn that the head of the U.S. CIA is a Muslim!
> Do hope this wakes up some!
> You mean until it hits you like a ton of bricks read it again, until you understand!
> ...



*

always pays to check snopes before getting on the fascist band wagon:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimgovernment.asp

Having said that I'm fairly sure the Labor Party will install a gay Muslim female disabled person to head up it's public service when elected.*


----------



## qldfrog (13 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> always pays to check snopes before getting on the fascist band wagon:
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimgovernment.asp
> 
> Having said that I'm fairly sure the Labor Party will install a gay Muslim female disabled person to head up it's public service when elected.




Tim you forgot the skin colour here
So  gay Muslim female disabled black;
This is now a direct management/board  entry card for any major corporation in Australia...


----------



## qldfrog (13 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> always pays to check snopes before getting on the fascist band wagon:
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimgovernment.asp
> 
> Having said that I'm fairly sure the Labor Party will install a gay Muslim female disabled person to head up it's public service when elected.



this initial post did not sound that great indeed, but I really like *bellenuit *sharia polls input.


----------



## DB008 (17 April 2016)

Sam Harris, spot on as usual

*Sam Harris on CNN: "When cartoonists draw the wrong cartoon and embassies start burning,
we criticize the cartoonists and the newspapers that printed the cartoons, and we practice self-censorship...
this is the bigotry of low expectations."​*
​


----------



## sydboy007 (20 April 2016)

[video=youtube_share;pSPvnFDDQHk]http://youtu.be/pSPvnFDDQHk[/video]


----------



## sydboy007 (20 April 2016)

a very good 101 on Political Islam

[video=youtube_share;Im0IisZ77QI]http://youtu.be/Im0IisZ77QI[/video]


this video shows the very real existential threat facing europe

[video=youtube_share;dF9V8POmuxg]http://youtu.be/dF9V8POmuxg[/video]


----------



## sydboy007 (20 April 2016)

DB008 said:


> Sam Harris, spot on as usual
> 
> *Sam Harris on CNN: "When cartoonists draw the wrong cartoon and embassies start burning,
> we criticize the cartoonists and the newspapers that printed the cartoons, and we practice self-censorship...
> this is the bigotry of low expectations."​*




The regressive left will be the destruction of western society.  The oppression olympics has to end.  In the UK up to 50% of young muslims wont tell authorities if they suspect someone of plotting a terrorist attack.  Up to 70% of pakistanis either outright support ISIS or aren't sure if they do or don't.

*No idea is above scrutiny, no person below dignity.*

Understand the concept of abrogation within islam.  Understand that the loving kumbaya of the quran have all been struck out and superseded by later verses.  Understand the hadith and sira of Mohammed are far more important than the quran.

To understand Mohammed is to understand Islam.  Understand that in his hippy meccan phase he was able to convert about 150 followers.  Reconcile this with his Medina life and use of jihad to fund terrorism and forced conversions.  Then it makes sense why he was pursuing acts of violence on average once every 6 weeks for the last 9 years of his life, and why the arabian peninsula had submitted to Islam by the time of his death.  Peace for islam comes at the end of a sword and from all submitting to their religion.

Merkel has admitted it will cost 50B euros over 2 years to fund the islamification of europe.  they are committing racial suicide and no one seems to care.

google info on the rotherham grooming scandal in the UK and see the reality of 1400+ british girls being sexually assaulted and passed around by Muslim Pakistanis over 16+ years, see how authorities were too scarred to deal with the issue.  

Then read up on how paul Weston was arrested by british police and charged with a race hate crime for just reading from Churchill's book The River War in public:

_“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the faith: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith.”_

President Erdogan of Turkey has called for the imprisonment of a German national for an "insulting" poem.  Jan Boehmermann had recited a satirical poem on the TV channel ZDF which made sexual references to President Erdogan.  Mr Boehmermann is now under police protection and Angela Merkel's government has approved a criminal inquiry, under a little-used law concerning insults against foreign heads of state.  Mrs Merkel stressed that the courts would have the final word, and it was now up to prosecutors to decide whether to press charges.

I fear Europe is lost.


----------



## Tisme (20 April 2016)

Germany and Saudi 

http://saudiarabien.ahk.de/fileadmin/ahk_saudi_arabien/Allgemein/Saudi-German-Magazine.pdf


----------



## DB008 (24 April 2016)

*Free Speech and Islam ”” In Defense of Sam Harris​*


> “It’s gross!  It’s racist!” exclaimed Ben Affleck on Bill Maher’s Real Time in October 2014, interrupting the neuroscientist “New Atheist” Sam Harris.  Harris had been carefully explaining the linguistic bait-and-switch inherent in the word “Islamophobia” as “intellectually ridiculous,” in that “every criticism of the doctrine of Islam gets conflated with bigotry toward Muslims as people.”  The result: progressives duped by the word shy away from criticizing the ideology of Islam, the tenets of which (including second-class status for women and intolerance toward sexual minorities) would, in any other context, surely elicit their condemnation.
> 
> Unwittingly, Affleck had confirmed Harris’ point, conflating religion with race.  In doing so, the actor was espousing a position that can lead to a de facto racist conclusion.  If you discount Islamic doctrine as the motivation for domestic violence and intolerance of sexual minorities in the Muslim world, you’re left with at least one implicitly bigoted assumption: the people of the region must then be congenitally inclined to behave as they do.
> 
> ...




More on link below...

http://quillette.com/2016/04/21/free-speech-and-islam-in-defense-of-sam-harris/​


----------



## qldfrog (24 April 2016)

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/university-professor-hacked-to-death-in-bangladesh-by-islamist-militants-20160423-godoa9.html
a religion of peace being applied...


----------



## Tisme (24 April 2016)

qldfrog said:


> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/university-professor-hacked-to-death-in-bangladesh-by-islamist-militants-20160423-godoa9.html
> a religion of peace being applied...




Wasn't Bangladesh that place that needed humanitarian relief, like forever? They took western dollars and used it to populate and propagate hate for their benefactors.


----------



## bellenuit (24 April 2016)

DB008 said:


> *Free Speech and Islam ”” In Defense of Sam Harris​*




Yes, I saw that encounter between Affleck and Harris on the Bill Maher show. Affleck was just so aggressive and unwilling to allow Harris (or Maher) to speak without constant interruption. I lost all respect for him after his performance.

As to Reza Aslan, he is probably one of the worst apologists going, and has been shown to be willing to lie when it suits him (even about his own academic record). Unfortunately, he is the "go to Muslim" for many news and talk shows and is championed by the regressive left because he plays the Islam is never at fault card and everything bad that is caused by islamists is due to some previous policy of the West.


----------



## luutzu (24 April 2016)

Tisme said:


> Wasn't Bangladesh that place that needed humanitarian relief, like forever? They took western dollars and used it to populate and propagate hate for their benefactors.




Maybe only since the East Indies Company, then British... mmm... liberation from the Mogul or Raj or themselves.


----------



## DB008 (26 April 2016)

Wasn't sure where to put this...

Breaking News
Immigrant/Illegals Thread
Islam Thread

*Police stop alleged Anzac terror plot​*


> Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has assured Australians they are safe despite another Anzac Day darkened by the threat of terrorism.
> 
> Counter-terrorism police arrested a 16-year-old boy in Auburn, Sydney, on Sunday night, charging him with planning a terrorist act.





https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/31427301/sydney-teen-charged-over-anzac-terror-plot/​


----------



## DB008 (27 April 2016)

*Sharia law proponents seeking parallel system​*



> 7 News investigation into Sharia law in Australia - which some want as a parallel legal system – has found it is already being used in mediations for a number of family law disputes. Bryan Seymour reports.





https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/31439907/sharia-law-used-in-family-law-arbitration-as-proponents-seek-parallel-legal-system/#page1​


----------



## noco (29 May 2016)

*Make sure the grocery buyer in your household reads this.

There should be more leading Australians like Dick, he gets to the bottom of important issues and anything that amounts to selling out Australia is very important.


A WARNING FROM DICK SMITH: 
You may be aware that " Dick Smith " chain franchise stores are being pressured by the Islamic Council of Australia to gain 'Halal Certification' otherwise they will be proscribed and banned from Muslim custom.

This is their response:

A MESSAGE FROM DICK SMITH. 
"We at Dick Smith 's have received a number of letters from people asking if we will be putting the Muslim Halal logo on our food.

To acquire Halal certification, payment is required to the endorsing body (the Islamic Council) and involves a number of site inspections of both our growers and processors in order to ensure that our practices comply with the conditions of Halal certification.

It is important to note that this does not reflect the quality of the food being processed or sold – it only means that the products are approved as being prepared in accordance with the traditions of the Muslim faith.

We are aware of an increasing number of large companies both in Australia and overseas, such as Kraft and Cadbury, who have obtained accreditation to use the Halal logo. We don’t believe they have done this because of any religious commitment but rather for purely commercial reasons.

Perhaps these large organizations can afford to do this.

While we have a choice however, we would prefer to avoid unnecessarily increasing the cost of our products in order to pay for Halal accreditation when this money would be better spent continuing to support important charitable causes where assistance is greatly needed.

We point out that we have never been asked to put a Christian symbol (or any other religious symbol) on our food requiring that we send money to a Christian organization for the right to do so.
Others would add that money paid to ANY Muslim 'organization' (and you had better believe it: these people ARE 'organized') can easily find its way into the hands of Islamic extremist-fanatics and murderers, irrespective of assurances to the contrary.

What other assurances do we accept from Muslims? Oh, that's right, 'Islam is a religion of PEACE'!  How less Australian can companies get, than to place money into the hands of those who seek to exploit us?"

This is an example of how the leaders of Muslims in Aus./NZ. are bullying large commercial organizations (especially in the food industry) into paying what is no more than blatant extortion money. The amazing part is that these weak-kneed organizations (Cadbury/ Schweppes/ Nestles/ Kraft etc.) actually pay the large sums demanded by these self-appointed religious bureaucrats.

Of course, the manufacturers promptly pass this levy on to unwitting consumers as cost increases. Next time you buy a block of Cadbury's chocolate, look for the Halal Certification seal on the wrapper. So, regardless of your own religious faith, you end up subsidizing Islam.
The Council also controls the Muslim voter bloc which, as yet, does not have sufficient critical mass to make a difference - but give them time.

Several state jurisdictions are under pressure to adopt or permit Sharia Law in Marriage, Family and Property matters and some, under the delusion that they are being progressively liberal, are permitting this. This has already happened in some local authorities in the U.K. Google the U.K. Education Department's current investigation into the conduct of Muslim-run schools in the Birmingham area of England.

How many more warnings do people need?
Check the produce on the shelf and don't buy anything Muslim extorted.

THANK YOU FOR READING THIS RIGHT THROUGH TO THE END.


You'll forward, yes?


*


----------



## Wysiwyg (29 May 2016)

DB008 said:


> *Sharia law proponents seeking parallel system​*



Nuh! We don't want that crap in Australia. We live in the 21st century under the Westminster system.


----------



## bellenuit (29 May 2016)

noco said:


> *Make sure the grocery buyer in your household reads this.
> 
> There should be more leading Australians like Dick, he gets to the bottom of important issues and anything that amounts to selling out Australia is very important.
> 
> ...




Noco, I am almost certain you posted that before and were informed at the time that it was a hoax.


http://www.hoax-slayer.com/message-false-quote-dick-smith-halal-certification.shtml


----------



## noco (29 May 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Noco, I am almost certain you posted that before and were informed at the time that it was a hoax.
> 
> 
> http://www.hoax-slayer.com/message-false-quote-dick-smith-halal-certification.shtml




Whist your contradiction of Dick Smith statement may be true, nobody can deny the fact that this Halal certification imposed upon other large companies is not true....I just don't understand why large companies fall for this BS.

I would like to know how much the Islamic movement is gaining from this and how much is going overseas to aid terrorists?

It makes me angry when I hear of these requests by immigrants who have been befriended by the Australian people and who want special rules, regulations and laws to suit their religious/political beliefs....It never happened with immigrants outside the Islamic movement since WW11....The English, German and Italian migrates accepted our rules, laws and way of life and so should the Muslims.


----------



## cynic (29 May 2016)

noco said:


> Whist your contradiction of Dick Smith statement may be true, nobody can deny the fact that this Halal certification imposed upon other large companies is not true....I just don't understand why large companies fall for this BS.
> 
> I would like to know how much the Islamic movement is gaining from this and how much is going overseas to aid terrorists?
> 
> It makes me angry when I hear of these requests by immigrants who have been befriended by the Australian people and who want special rules, regulations and laws to suit their religious/political beliefs....It never happened with immigrants outside the Islamic movement since WW11....The English, German and Italian migrates accepted our rules, laws and way of life and so should the Muslims.




Is Halal certification an imposition? Or is it an invitation to treat?


----------



## SirRumpole (29 May 2016)

cynic said:


> Is Halal certification an imposition? Or is it an invitation to treat?




It's a money making superstition.


----------



## cynic (29 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a money making superstition.




Many muslims will likely hold a different opinion to you on this. Have you heard the expression "The customer's always right!" ?

When talking about the making of money, it is possible to view this from a purely business perspective.

It seems likely that market share, within the food industry, may be increased by accommodating this particular muslim custom.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 May 2016)

cynic said:


> Many muslims will likely hold a different opinion to you on this. Have you heard the expression "The customer's always right!" ?
> 
> When talking about the making of money, it is possible to view this from a purely business perspective.
> 
> It seems likely that market share, within the food industry, may be increased by accommodating this particular muslim custom.




I'm sure it is a business opportunity for some; ie access to larger markets, but what it comes down to is bribery for some certification that does not affect the quality of food in any way but simply panders to religious superstition.

We are also subsidising the spread of a potentially dangerous theocracy whose rule most of us would not want to live under, and there is no certainty that some of the bribe money won't go to nefarious activities either in this country or elsewhere.

I can see why people would want to boycott this type of extortion.


----------



## cynic (29 May 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm sure it is a business opportunity for some; ie access to larger markets, but what it comes down to is bribery for some certification that does not affect the quality of food in any way but simply panders to religious superstition.
> 
> We are also subsidising the spread of a potentially dangerous theocracy whose rule most of us would not want to live under, and there is no certainty that some of the bribe money won't go to nefarious activities either in this country or elsewhere.
> 
> I can see why people would want to boycott this type of extortion.




Money speaks most languages! If enough consumers boycott Halal certification in favour of non certified products, then business may find itself, once again, compelled to respond to the desires of the customer.

My personal religion neither demands nor precludes the consumption of Halal food. So I don't perceive a need to endorse or boycott sensible businesses doing what sensible businesses do!


----------



## noco (4 June 2016)

Maccas pay Halal Certification Fees & Charges!

One of our Members 
tells us his experience at Maccas...
”I had to pick something up from Grays Online at Lidcombe yesterday and on the way back we called into Maccas on the corner of Parramatta Rd and Silverwater Rd.
I got a Quarter Pounder and Erica got some Crispy Chicken, BLT Burger (Bacon, Lettuce, Tomato) The crispy was some rectangular things like corn chips but her bacon was cold and sort of pale and watery.
When she questioned it at the counter and said the bacon should be cooked and a bit crispy, she was informed that they now do the bacon in the microwave because if they put it on the grill it would contaminate the other meats and they would lose their HALAL Certification.”

She then said, 
"So I can't have it how we have eaten it all our lives because this minority say it offends them?" 

The only reply was a shrug of the shoulders and a comment that this was a HALAL Store.
It seems that even the mighty Maccas have bowed to the Muslim Halal Beast.
So next time you get a burger from Maccas and wonder why the bacon doesn't taste right, you'll know that it was thawed out and heated up in the microwave because it offends less that 3% of the population, (according to Google) and they want to keep their Halal Certification.
I Guess that scratches Maccas off my food list. Maybe a good thing and I'll lose some weight.
Feel free to forward this to whoever you want.”


----------



## Tisme (4 June 2016)

noco said:


> Maccas pay Halal Certification Fees & Charges!
> 
> One of our Members
> tells us his experience at Maccas...
> ...






https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.com.au/questions/5831


----------



## CanOz (4 June 2016)

noco said:


> Maccas pay Halal Certification Fees & Charges!
> 
> One of our Members
> tells us his experience at Maccas...
> ...







Noco, the simple reason is really this simple, McDonald's wants the revenue associated with a multicultural customer, so they're willing to make the changes that may affect current customers.....they've done the math


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

noco said:


> Maccas pay Halal Certification Fees & Charges!
> 
> One of our Members
> tells us his experience at Maccas...
> ...






How is that Halal or Islam's fault again?

They simply say to Big Mac that bacon can't be mixed with other Halal certified food. It was Big Mac's fault to then decide how to make that happen. They could get another grill; cook in other ways than the microwave - heck, get a grilled microwave oven for around $500.

Since maccas decided it's cheaper to go cheap, and going heap here mean they get to sell to Muslims and non-Muslims... whose fault is that?


For Islam or Muslims to be intolerant would be their demanding no bacon being served or premise at all. Or within a five mile radius with Arabic blessing or whatever.

Here they're like a vegan health nut going to maccas for the salad options.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> How is that Halal or Islam's fault again?
> 
> They simply say to Big Mac that bacon can't be mixed with other Halal certified food. It was Big Mac's fault to then decide how to make that happen. They could get another grill; cook in other ways than the microwave - heck, get a grilled microwave oven for around $500.
> 
> ...




The point is that 3% or thereabouts of the population seem to be dictating what the rest of us can eat.

As I never go to MacDonalds it doesn't bother me but the whole Halal thing seems to be extortion based on superstition afaic.


----------



## DB008 (5 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The point is that 3% or thereabouts of the population seem to be dictating what the rest of us can eat.
> 
> As I never go to MacDonalds it doesn't bother me but the whole Halal thing seems to be extortion based on superstition afaic.




McDonalds in Sweden. Halal no doubt






​

Sweden has died.


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The point is that 3% or thereabouts of the population seem to be dictating what the rest of us can eat.
> 
> As I never go to MacDonalds it doesn't bother me but the whole Halal thing seems to be extortion based on superstition afaic.




No they don't.

They simply let it be known what they'd buy and won't buy. It's up to businesses what they'd do about it if they want (or do not want) Muslims money.

To blame this on Muslims is like blaming Maccas other short cuts on other people.

Remember a decade or so ago when Hungry Jacks' flame-grilled beef was the rage? Maccas came out with their own "flame grilled" patties too. It then turn out they only use hot iron and flame the lines in.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> No they don't.
> 
> They simply let it be known what they'd buy and won't buy. It's up to businesses what they'd do about it if they want (or do not want) Muslims money.
> 
> ...




Maccas should open Halal only stores so the Muslims can eat what they want and the rest of us can eat what we want in their Aussie only stores.

Trying to mix the two only upsets people.


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

DB008 said:


> McDonalds in Sweden. Halal no doubt
> 
> 
> View attachment 66987
> ...




McDonalds' is American or Aussies? Or Swedish?

It's a multinational burger chain trying to suit the tastes of every people on every country - and Muslims is one of those people they try to make money out off. 

So before we get carried away with patriotic fervour for Maccas ruining our national diet... you know, they do offer the Aussie Burger now and then - complete with the option to have it with or without beetroot.


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maccas should open Halal only stores so the Muslims can eat what they want and the rest of us can eat what we want.
> 
> Trying to mix the two only upsets people.




if we're upset about it, then maybe we ought to be as tolerant as the Muslim customers. They're the one whose religion forbid consuming pork, the one who view pork as dirty.. .and yet they're tolerant enough to have it serve to infidels in their presence.

I'm sure they also prefer a Halal only Maccas too. 

Anyway, the last thing to worry about eating at McDonalds is the way they cook their bacon.

The first thing to worry about is where's the toilet and is it clean?

We took the kids there now and then, and learnt the hard way to never leave Maccas before they've all gone to the toilet after consuming it.

dam, bad parenting... but ey, it's only a couple or three times alright?


----------



## SirRumpole (5 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> if we're upset about it, then maybe we ought to be as tolerant as the Muslim customers. They're the one whose religion forbid consuming pork, the one who view pork as dirty.. .and yet they're tolerant enough to have it serve to infidels in their presence.




Very decent of them.


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Very decent of them.




McDonalds are the ones who's short changing bacon-loving customers and somehow that's the fault of Muslims.

Did any Muslim goes to Maccas and say, you better cook those bacon in a microwave or else!

Anyway...


----------



## noco (5 June 2016)

How about a pork burger served up by naked women?????......They would have to commit suicide then ....Problem solved.


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

noco said:


> How about a pork burger served up by naked women?????......They would have to commit suicide then ....Problem solved.




There's over a billion of them. That'll need a lot of burgers. Enough to bring Hooters back to business.

You ever ask why a people whose countries are being bombed to heck last 15 years, killing literally millions of their people; displaced tens of millions to refugee camps; those camps being full they now take a boat and thousands of drowned... 

These people are the terrorists and warmongers?

Either they deserve all those bombs raining over them or you're misinformed noco.

And no, I am not saying all Muslims are saints or all of them are good. Can we say that of any group of people?


----------



## DB008 (5 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> McDonalds' is American or Aussies? Or Swedish?
> 
> It's a multinational burger chain trying to suit the tastes of every people on every country - and Muslims is one of those people they try to make money out off.
> 
> So before we get carried away with patriotic fervour for Maccas ruining our national diet... you know, they do offer the Aussie Burger now and then - complete with the option to have it with or without beetroot.




You are so missing the point.

This is a McDonalds, in Sweden, with an Arabic menu

WTF

Your right, maybe the Swedes needs to learn Arabic to integrate better


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

DB008 said:


> You are so missing the point.
> 
> This is a McDonalds, in Sweden, with an Arabic menu
> 
> ...




If you want to make a point about Swedes losing their identity, maybe put a Swedish restaurant rather than Maccas from the US. 

Oh, this was to show the Swedes have been invaded twice and won't put up with it this time?

Mate, when a business want to advertise their services, they do it and write it in ways and in languages the target audience can understand. That's why only cool young people drink Coke and Maccas are good for kids and young sports team.

But to your point about assimilation and learning a new language... if you were to move to, say, China... could you learn Mandarin overnight? Within a year? Should all services be in Mandarin and if you can't read it, then that's your business?

----

Honestly, you care about Western Values, Democracy, liberal ideals and all that Islam (and other cultures) isn't right?

You think Muslims and refugees are eroding our democracy? Or buying off politicians? You seriously think more and more Australians are struggling because too much money goes to illegals? Or those on welfare are having it too good - that's why they're on welfare?

Maybe you're fighting the right war, just wrong target.


----------



## noco (5 June 2016)

I don't understand why the Muslims are eating bacon in the first place......It is from the pig which is taboo..


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

noco said:


> I don't understand why the Muslims are eating bacon in the first place......It is from the pig which is taboo..




They don't.

Just Maccas want to sell them non-bacon and otherwise Halal food and figured that if non-Muslims want bacon in the store, it's cheaper to heat the bacon in a microwave than buying a convection or separate grill for the job.

So blame the Muslims for taking over our Maccas deep fryer. 

And dam it, why has my chips been fried in the same oil they cook bacon with? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of vegetable oil they've been claiming?


----------



## noco (5 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> They don't.
> 
> Just Maccas want to sell them non-bacon and otherwise Halal food and figured that if non-Muslims want bacon in the store, it's cheaper to heat the bacon in a microwave than buying a convection or separate grill for the job.
> 
> ...




Actually I never go to Maccas.......They stick their food where the Sun don't shine.


----------



## luutzu (5 June 2016)

noco said:


> Actually I never go to Maccas.......They stick their food where the Sun don't shine.




Yea, I think that's where they do stick most of their food.


----------



## Tisme (7 June 2016)

Amping things up with the traditional Aussie pre election propaganda: this is a pro Hanson works:


----------



## luutzu (7 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Amping things up with the traditional Aussie pre election propaganda: this is a pro Hanson works:
> 
> View attachment 67006




Where's Abbott between the first and last PM?


----------



## Tisme (7 June 2016)

luutzu said:


> Where's Abbott between the first and last PM?




I don't know why the PM pic attached itself. I couldn't see its attachment when trying to edit it out


----------



## lindsayf (8 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Amping things up with the traditional Aussie pre election propaganda: this is a pro Hanson works:
> 
> View attachment 67006




Are those legal charges for real?


----------



## Tisme (8 June 2016)

lindsayf said:


> Are those legal charges for real?




don't know, but it's a worry if they are....where's Jana Wendt when you need her?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (8 June 2016)

This evil bastard was caught by some other evil bastards. 

He was videoed lining up to buy some poor girl. 

He is an ISIS Bastard. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ner-Iraqi-forces-filmed-sex-slave-market.html

gg


----------



## qldfrog (13 June 2016)

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...ltiple-people-being-held-20160612-gphea8.html
probably another nasty racist anti gay Trump soldier?
just logical consequence of muslim immigration, it is either them or us, no middle ground with the Salafists
RIP
Wonder how long it will take for the PC police to blame it on gun control


----------



## SirRumpole (13 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...ltiple-people-being-held-20160612-gphea8.html
> probably another nasty racist anti gay Trump soldier?
> just logical consequence of muslim immigration, it is either them or us, no middle ground with the Salafists
> RIP
> Wonder how long it will take for the PC police to blame it on gun control




You don't think gun control had anything to do with it ?

The guy had a gun license even though he was *twice* investigated by the FBI for radicalisation. 

WTF are they doing over there letting people like him have guns ?


----------



## MrBurns (13 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You don't think gun control had anything to do with it ?
> 
> The guy had a gun license even though he was *twice* investigated by the FBI for radicalisation.
> 
> WTF are they doing over there letting people like him have guns ?





Obama will just throw his hands in the air and walk away....at least he tried.


----------



## qldfrog (13 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You don't think gun control had anything to do with it ?
> 
> The guy had a gun license even though he was *twice* investigated by the FBI for radicalisation.
> 
> WTF are they doing over there letting people like him have guns ?



I would be really disappointed in you Sir Rumpole if you were to genouinely believe that gun control would have avoided a single casualty in that casel
no one is allowed to buy automatic weapon in France, definitively not the AK47 used in Bataclam yet...
I am for sensible gun control: no automatic for any reason, etc
But to throw sand in the eyes of the public and put that rubbish blaming gun control in such a clear Jihad attack...
And in Boston, the problem was fertiliser in supermatket, unless it is pressure cookers which should need a background check?


----------



## cynic (13 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> I would be really disappointed in you Sir Rumpole if you were to genouinely believe that gun control would have avoided a single casualty in that casel
> no one is allowed to buy automatic weapon in France, definitively not the AK47 used in Bataclam yet...
> I am for sensible gun control: no automatic for any reason, etc
> But to throw sand in the eyes of the public and put that rubbish blaming gun control in such a clear Jihad attack...
> And in Boston, the problem was fertiliser in supermatket, unless it is pressure cookers which should need a background check?



I am not sure that it was a Jihad attack. From news reports thus far, it sounds more like the crime was motivated by a hatred of homosexuals.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> I would be really disappointed in you Sir Rumpole if you were to genouinely believe that gun control would have avoided a single casualty in that casel
> no one is allowed to buy automatic weapon in France, definitively not the AK47 used in Bataclam yet...
> I am for sensible gun control: no automatic for any reason, etc
> But to throw sand in the eyes of the public and put that rubbish blaming gun control in such a clear Jihad attack...
> And in Boston, the problem was fertiliser in supermatket, unless it is pressure cookers which should need a background check?




The only people who should be allowed to possess military assault rifles should be the military. And people who are being investigated by the FBI should not own them at all.

Maybe this guy would have stolen a gun or purchased one illegally, who know , but if you make it harder for the lunatics then you reduce the chances of mass slaughter.

How many mass killings have there been in Oz since the gun laws ? How many in the USA ? How many deaths by firearms in each country ?

Give it a rest Mr Frog, gun control makes a difference.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 June 2016)

cynic said:


> I am not sure that it was a Jihad attack. From news reports thus far, it sounds more like the crime was motivated by a hatred of homosexuals.




Quite possibly a hatred enflamed by his religious beliefs.


----------



## cynic (13 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Quite possibly a hatred enflamed by his religious beliefs.




Certainly possible. However, according to accounts of his life history, it seems more likely that he went off the rails during his marriage.


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## qldfrog (14 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The only people who should be allowed to possess military assault rifles should be the military. And people who are being investigated by the FBI should not own them at all.
> 
> Maybe this guy would have stolen a gun or purchased one illegally, who know , but if you make it harder for the lunatics then you reduce the chances of mass slaughter.
> 
> ...



So this was just a lunatic act of course and yes, lunatics, dumped lovers etcv  will do less damage with gun control.
But when someone plan a terrorist act, finding the mean is never an issue.
I favour some gun control (seriously, who needs assault gun to shoot deers), but to turn an issue which is roughly a 1400 y old fight of Islam vs the rest of the world into a US owned gun control problem, is quite a nice Houdini act, yet suckers line up to swallow it;
more more more please
 indeed!
It must be nice living in these bubbles, quite comfortable indeed,a bit like the pampered turkeys before Thanksgiving.(need to have an American image)


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## SirRumpole (14 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> So this was just a lunatic act of course and yes, lunatics, dumped lovers etcv  will do less damage with gun control.
> But when someone plan a terrorist act, finding the mean is never an issue.
> I favour some gun control (seriously, who needs assault gun to shoot deers), but to turn an issue which is roughly a 1400 y old fight of Islam vs the rest of the world into a US owned gun control problem, is quite a nice Houdini act, yet suckers line up to swallow it;
> more more more please
> ...




Oh please, it's not all about gun control, of course there is the terrorism aspect. I refer you again to the number of deaths by gun per capita in the USA and Australia. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

So trying to take one incident and say gun control doesn't work is invalid. Americans die by gun at about 10 times the rate that we do. Any ideas why ?


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## Tisme (14 June 2016)

My bet is that the media will proclaim Omar Mateen a gay in denial, at odds with his Muslim dogma and sick of being tempted by the devil Christian nation. That and he was obviously a foreigner like Obama is, therefore a traitor to truth, justice and inferior in every other way.

Meanwhile we have our own backyard to contend with:


http://www.betootaadvocate.com/unca...eful-day-under-oppressive-gun-control-regime/


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## qldfrog (14 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh please, it's not all about gun control, of course there is the terrorism aspect. I refer you again to the number of deaths by gun per capita in the USA and Australia.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
> 
> So trying to take one incident and say gun control doesn't work is invalid. Americans die by gun at about 10 times the rate that we do. Any ideas why ?



Of course gun control is needed, what my stance is:
in that specific case as in any case where such fanatics are involved (aka the couple in california a few months ago)   the fact they have an easily purchased gun is irrelevant;
 in a country without gun, they would steal a fuel tanker and crash it agains the disco; remember 9/11: they did not need bazookas, artillery or RPGs
And to see the sheeps following the comfortable view "blame it on these stupid Americans with their idiotic gun laws' is maddening, the media playing there an act of manipulation.
But fronting the real issue is so much harder and goes against so much ingrained convictions....
Anyway, just a mad man i am sure, we should not generalised, we will see the muslim and the priests/mayor, even maybe president, arm in arm singing the "we are one" song.
SirRumpole, Europe has been sold this masquerade to death, actual death of a civilisation.
Maybe just maybe people should open their eyes, and start reading the Koran, understanding that as opposed to the bible it is a literal code of life to be followed to the letter as claimed by the obscurantists who have been in control in the mosks(sp?)  for the last 4 decades or so, this thanks to oil money and our western governments.
The truth is ugly and terrifying, it is not a reason to hide it.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Of course gun control is needed, what my stance is:
> in that specific case as in any case where such fanatics are involved (aka the couple in california a few months ago)   the fact they have an easily purchased gun is irrelevant;
> in a country without gun, they would steal a fuel tanker and crash it agains the disco; remember 9/11: they did not need bazookas, artillery or RPGs
> And to see the sheeps following the comfortable view "blame it on these stupid Americans with their idiotic gun laws' is maddening, the media playing there an act of manipulation.
> ...




I agree that Islam is a potential (maybe even current) danger to our society and that we should not allow it to grow here, but in the absence of terrorism  we should also not ignore the potential, so often displayed in the US, for gun violence and the effect that gun control has on reducing this in countries other than the US.

There are other threads for this, so maybe I'm off topic. As to the title of the thread, if Islam motivates people to do evil acts then it is in itself evil.


----------



## qldfrog (14 June 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I agree that Islam is a potential (maybe even current) danger to our society and that we should not allow it to grow here, but in the absence of terrorism  we should also not ignore the potential, so often displayed in the US, for gun violence and the effect that gun control has on reducing this in countries other than the US.
> 
> There are other threads for this, so maybe I'm off topic. As to the title of the thread, if Islam motivates people to do evil acts then it is in itself evil.



Fully agree on both points.
But the need of a gun licence for a BB/airgun  gun or to shoot a ceremonial canon in landing reenactment as is the case in Australia (with the hefty cost associated, but that is probably the usual grab for cash) is clearly over the top.


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## qldfrog (14 June 2016)

The dad of the killer  in his "apologies":
_"Seddique Mateen said he was saddened by his son's actions. But he added: "In this month of Ramadan, the gay and lesbian issue is something that God will punish," though "the servants of God shouldn't have anything to do with it."_ from Brisbane Time.
I can not verify the quote but seems quite in line with a believer's stance


----------



## qldfrog (14 June 2016)

And 2 cops executed in France: husband and wife under the name of this religion
http://www.lemonde.fr/police-justice/live/2016/06/14/en-direct-le-meurtrier-d-un-policier-et-de-sa-compagne-dans-les-yvelines-avait-deja-ete-condamne-pour-terrorisme_4949880_1653578.html
the killer spared the 3y old child.


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## bellenuit (16 June 2016)

*As an Arab, the Middle East’s reaction to Orlando left me speechless…*

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...orlando-depressing/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

By Mohammed Rady

_Recently, a devastating terrorist attack took place in Orlando, where 49 innocent people were murdered. Surely, the majority of people in the Arab world condemn this atrocious act of violence? The most fatal shooting in recent American history cannot possibly be celebrated by such a large number of peace-loving people who, after all, mostly condemn the acts of terror committed in the name of Islam by groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda, right? Right?

Wrong.

As a bilingual Arabic and English speaker from the Middle East, I took the liberty of browsing through Arabic news pages on Facebook earlier today; namely Al Jazeera, Al-Arabiya, BBC Arabic and a number of Egyptian news outlets to gauge how the Arab world was responding to the Orlando shooting. The results were disappointing, alarming, and depressing to say the least. Each page’s comment section was inundated with posts showing sympathy towards the attacker, praising him for his actions and wishing death upon members of the international LGBT community. Comments ranged from jokes about the incident and how “the gays had it coming,” to long du’as (religious supplications), wishing death upon gays and lesbians, as well as asking God to grant the killer “the highest place in paradise.” I considered collecting screenshots of these comments to raise awareness about the amount of hatred towards the gay community in the Middle East, but it soon dawned on me that such a task would be impossible.

There were simply too many hateful comments, with thousands celebrating the attack, from Tunisia to Egypt, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. *It was only through deep digging that a single person who expressed so much as a shred of sympathy to the victims and their families, or even condemned the blatant massacre that took place could be found.* If you don’t speak Arabic, visit Al Jazeera’s Facebook page and scroll down until you see a post about the Orlando attack and note what the top three “reactions” (newly added Facebook feature) are.

Shocked? So am I. It is truly saddening and disturbing to see that such a large number of social media users in the Arab world who voice their opinions on the internet openly and unapologetically condone the killing of innocents because of their sexual orientation. Conversely, you may argue that as a majority of Al Jazeera viewers and readers are Islamist sympathizers, it is no surprise that they would be homophobic, and you would be right. But bear in mind that this also applies to outlets such as the BBC and Al Arabiya, whose followers you may assume are anti-Islamist because of their condemnation of ISIS. Egyptian news outlets generally have a large pro-Sisi following, and one might be led to think that their anti-brotherhood and anti-Islamism stance means that they condemn acts of terror against members of the LGBT community. Clearly, this is not the case.

The implications of this are far worse and much more far-reaching than one might initially consider. It has now become commonplace in the Arab world to wish death upon minorities and celebrate their murders. Gays, Christians, Jews, atheists, apostates, heterodox Muslims, liberal Muslims, and secularists are seen as subhuman. Celebrating their deaths is now a norm. At worst, attacks such as the Orlando shooting are met with praise, and at best silence.

Members of the left who claim such terrorism has nothing to do with Islam need to become aware of the issue at hand that is Islamism, and understand the ramifications of evading discussions on it. The Arab world’s moral collapse is the result of decades of fundamentalist Wahhabi indoctrination across the Muslim world which has culminated in the recent rise of Islamic terrorism. Reform must come from within Muslim communities – I can’t stress this enough. An open and frank discussion on the current understanding and interpretation of Islam is much needed. Yes, it’s great to see Muslims in the west condemning the attack and voicing solidarity with the victims and their families, but there still remains a long way to go. The Muslim world, particularly the Middle East and North Africa, has become rife with followers of either Arab nationalist anti-west ideologies, or Islamism and Wahhabism, both of which are cesspools for hate.

When the standard response from a lot of liberals is “Christians can be homophobic too” and “this has nothing to do with Islam” right after a terrorist attack where 49 people were killed because of religious fundamentalism, then a frank discussion is desperately needed. No favors are done by denying the presence of homophobia in Muslim communities and repeating far right Islamist rhetoric and propaganda. This only worsens an already bad situation, and the profundity of the consequences this attitude engenders towards Islamic fundamentalism must be recognized. Ignoring Islamic fundamentalism only makes the far right stronger, and its rise will be immediately followed by the persecution of the minorities whose rights the left purports to protect. This makes it harder not only for the LGBT community in the Middle East, but also other minorities and liberal and secular Muslims who fight for change on a daily basis in the Arab world._


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## qldfrog (16 June 2016)

Thanks Bellenuit, music to my hear but it won't be long before the usual suspects blame this attack on the bombing in Lybia/Syria, Irak you name it;or just on gun control absence
It is a deep and knowledgeable analysis:
did you know that a century ago, 25% of ME population were not muslim; it took less than a 100 y to wipe them out.
I am afraid Islam now is back to its worst form ever, a results of ignorance, overpopulation, political and geopolitical manoeuvres, and of the price of oil with the most backward governments in the world in position of strength.
Just my opinion...


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## DB008 (16 June 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Thanks Bellenuit, music to my hear but it won't be long before the usual suspects blame this attack on the bombing in Lybia/Syria, Irak you name it;or just on gun control absence
> It is a deep and knowledgeable analysis:
> did you know that a century ago, 25% of ME population were not muslim; it took less than a 100 y to wipe them out.
> I am afraid Islam now is back to its worst form ever, a results of ignorance, overpopulation, political and geopolitical manoeuvres, and of the price of oil with the most backward governments in the world in position of strength.
> Just my opinion...




This says something...

*Most popular Facebook reaction emoticon to the Orlando shooting on Al Jazeera's page is 'Haha'*


​


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## dutchie (17 June 2016)

Mateen

"The real Muslims will never accept the filthy ways of the West"


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## Tisme (17 June 2016)

dutchie said:


> Mateen
> 
> "The real Muslims will never accept the filthy ways of the West"




But they are happy to enjoy fruits of the west's labour.


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## Tisme (22 June 2016)

Pauline's Election Plank:

http://www.onenation.com.au/current_affairs/islam-policy-released


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## CanOz (22 June 2016)

Tisme said:


> Pauline's Election Plank:
> 
> http://www.onenation.com.au/current_affairs/islam-policy-released




The female version of Donald Trump....

Question: What is the Muslim population doing to correct bad press? I never hear much about their religious leaders speaking out to counter the negativity towards the religion....or maybe it just doesn't sell news?


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## smallwolf (22 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> The female version of Donald Trump....
> 
> Question: What is the Muslim population doing to correct bad press? I never hear much about their religious leaders speaking out to counter the negativity towards the religion....or maybe it just doesn't sell news?




if you google something like 'Muslims speak out' you certainly won't find much - at least in AUS. And probably for a few reasons, but the main one would be that extremist views sell papers. You only have to read this article from 2 years ago ...

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/muslims-are-speaking-out-but-no-one-is-listening-20140930-10nktr.html


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## CanOz (22 June 2016)

smallwolf said:


> if you google something like 'Muslims speak out' you certainly won't find much - at least in AUS. And probably for a few reasons, but the main one would be that extremist views sell papers. You only have to read this article from 2 years ago ...
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/comment/muslims-are-speaking-out-but-no-one-is-listening-20140930-10nktr.html




Thanks for that, great article and i'd like to see more of it. I used to find Al Jazeera news very fair and unbiased when i used to watch it at a mates place in Shanghai. I'll have to try and see if i can tune in again online. A balanced view is so needed with the media the way it is...


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## Tisme (22 June 2016)

CanOz said:


> The female version of Donald Trump....
> 
> Question: What is the Muslim population doing to correct bad press? I never hear much about their religious leaders speaking out to counter the negativity towards the religion....or maybe it just doesn't sell news?




Answer: It's not their right to question their God's way. They just gotta do what HE says, not what the rest of us want them to say.


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## dutchie (24 June 2016)

Maybe the Poms have waken up to themselves.


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## noco (5 July 2016)

*FINALLY SOMEONE STANDS UP TO THEM!!
Cargill meat plant fires 150 Muslims 
Pray rather than work...

Here's another example of how Islam is not compatible with a modern civilized
society. Muslim workers walked off the job at a Colorado meat processing
plant because they demanded more accommodations for their multiple daily
prayer sessions. In a move that is sure to send liberals through the roof,
the company fired the Muslim employees who refused to work.
The Denver Post reports that around 200 Muslim workers, most of them Somali refugees,
walked off their jobs at Cargill Meat Solutions in Fort Morgan, CO ten days  ago.
Their beef (pun intended):  the company wouldn't let them take several
10-minute prayer breaks per day.

The problem is, the meat processing plant is an assembly line and when a couple
of hundred employees abandon their posts to pray to Allah, the whole
operation shuts down. Now try to image that happening 4 or 5 times every
day. The company had been allowing the Muslims prayer schedule and even
provided them with a prayer room, but changed policy recently because it was
killing productivity.

Keep in mind that the Muslim workers were allowed to pray during their mandated breaks
and lunches.

Oh, and the job starts out at $14 an hour with more experienced workers
making much more.
Apparently none of this was good enough and so the Muslims staged a walk out.
Though these Muslim workers are Teamsters, the union didn't want to have
anything to do with this ridiculous strike so the Council on American-Islamic
Relations (CAIR) stepped in to negotiate.

They feel missing their prayer is worse than losing their job. It's like losing a
blessing from God, said CAIR executive director Jaylani Hussein.
Cargill told the Muslim employees to either return to work or find another job.
About 50 of them took this seriously and came back, while 150 or so did not.
On Tuesday, the company fired the 150 who felt praying was more important
than providing for their families.

And guess what....The fired Muslims now suddenly want to come back to work under the
conditions they previously thought were unbearable. The company called their
bluff and now they are out of luck. Cargill has a policy that any employee
that is fired may not reapply for a job for six months.

I applaud the company for this mass firing. These Muslims had good paying jobs that
complied with all US labour laws, but they wanted special treatment that
would cost Cargill money in lost productivity. If their religion doesn't
comply with normal American employment, they shouldn't even be in this
country.

This is a common theme with Muslims in the US. They demand  special food, special
dress code exemptions, special prayer spaces funded by others, and special prayer breaks.
No one forced them to move here. They should assimilate to our way of doing things instead of us bending over
backwards to accommodate them.

I have a feeling this story is just beginning, as Muslims are the politician's new protected class of people.


*

I hope Donald Trump is the next President of the USA and stands up to the Islamic movement better than Obama has.

Lets hope Pauline Hanson can do the same thing in Australia to pull the Islamic movement into line with rest of true Australians....They can forget about trying to change us to their ways...They are in our country as guests and  they should be grateful for has been done for them......Live like us or leave.


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## Tisme (5 July 2016)

noco said:


> ......Live like us or leave.




Don't they have their passports taken if they try to leave here, in case they join ISIS?


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## Joe Blow (5 July 2016)

I am introducing a moratorium on posts that quote forwarded emails or were sourced from blogs or other second hand sources and do not refer to a news article that can be verified and fact checked.

The events to which noco refers in his post above are detailed by the Daily Mail here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...plant-fired-striking-told-not-pray-shift.html

I would, where possible, prefer a dispassionate analysis of events rather than simply cutting and pasting from other sources, especially partisan ones. I'm all for debate and discussion but I feel that mainstream news sources must be used to verify actual events. In this particular case, the events to which noco refers actually happened but much of what gets posted around the internet these days are simply urban myths or are inaccurate accounts of actual events that are designed to push political or other ideological agendas.


----------



## CanOz (5 July 2016)

I've actually had to 'unfollow' all but my family on FB now...I was getting too many racist reposts...I got sick of defending the refugees, gun violence victims and environmentalists....I'm much calmer now. I've just got to block myself from ASF political threads and I'll be forever at peace.


----------



## pixel (5 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> I've actually had to 'unfollow' all but my family on FB now...I was getting too many racist reposts...I got sick of defending the refugees, gun violence victims and environmentalists....I'm much calmer now. I've just got to block myself from ASF political threads and I'll be forever at peace.




I went one step further and cancelled my Facebook account. Not only due to those stupid "Forward this or the Sky will fall on your head" nut jobs, but also because there were scores of lonely friends out there that implored me to play games with them "just this once, so my play counter gets to the next level."
Time wasters!
Anyone who wants to get in touch with me knows my address and phone/ Skype numbers. Happy to chat anytime I'm online. But I control which calls get accepted.


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## SirRumpole (5 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> I've just got to block myself from ASF political threads and I'll be forever at peace.





:2evil:

...


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## CanOz (5 July 2016)

I like FB for family, i can see what all my siblings are up to and vaguely keep in touch with them. It has been tempting though Pixel to drop it all together. IF i thought i could get the family to migrate to a different social media platform, more family oriented i'd be motivated to do so. 

Yes Rumpy....


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## qldfrog (5 July 2016)

CanOz,
I do the same with all the Do Gooders and anti racist threads etc and you can reach inner peace; 
Believe me it goes both ways
Avoid the global warming thread (where I am on the green side), the illegal immigrant one (where I am extremely harsh and realistic from past real experience which is not the case of the majority of thread followers) , and for the ASX threads, avoid any fact giving advice going against the tide as you will always find a few people whose conviction will bypass any fact (see my entries in Capilano, the rubbish I got  followed within a month by releases like that https://www.facebook.com/WIN-News-Central-West-431557963627074/) And no, i was not involved...
with Luutzu now enjoying the heaven of multi culturalist Europe on its way to the monoculture coming (I believe he is enjoying a vacation in Europe and there is nothing more sinister in his absence), it is so quiet and serene, just a shame we have the election results to add some noise but not much else.
I believe it is a good move to remove the cut and paste but I would allow a link and maybe a one sentence summary as a trigger for discussion; this is my interpretation of what is being proposed Joe?
An issue remains when access is restricted but I assume in that case, the cut and paste might be legally wrong as well..


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## SirRumpole (5 July 2016)

I thoroughly support Joe in removing unattributed rants that degrade this fine forum.

A lot of them are fantasy, distortions, paranoia and just plain filth.

Of course that doesn't stop re-postings from Larry Pickering which are all of the above,but at least we know where it comes from.


----------



## noco (5 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I thoroughly support Joe in removing unattributed rants that degrade this fine forum.
> 
> A lot of them are fantasy, distortions, paranoia and just plain filth.
> 
> Of course that doesn't stop re-postings from Larry Pickering which are all of the above,but at least we know where it comes from.




Ummm.....FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!!!!!!!!......Don't you love it?...That is until somebody does not like the truth.


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## pixel (5 July 2016)

noco said:


> Ummm.....FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!!!!!!!!......Don't you love it?...That is until somebody does not like the truth.




Quoting (*NOT* cut'n'paste!) a famous Politician: *"What IS Truth?"*

Sometimes, pretty obvious hyperbole is being attacked as untruth by claiming it was meant as factual truth. And then there is the extreme interpretation of a spurious remark or obscure event, being sold as naked truth. 

Neither deserves to be suppressed, but in a civilised society, it ought to be possible to discuss and debate ANY difference of opinion.


----------



## Tisme (5 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I thoroughly support Joe in removing unattributed rants that degrade this fine forum.
> 
> A lot of them are fantasy, distortions, paranoia and just plain filth.
> 
> Of course that doesn't stop re-postings from Larry Pickering which are all of the above,but at least we know where it comes from.




I like Memes


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## Joe Blow (5 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I thoroughly support Joe in removing unattributed rants that degrade this fine forum




From my perspective this is an issue of quality of information. If people wish to discuss hypotheticals then that is fine, but if the discussion is in relation to actual events then it is critical that the facts of what actually transpired are established. In order to do that, sources must be cited. The internet is awash with false and misleading information because political agenda pushing, on both the left and the right, is more important to some than what actually occurred.

I would hope that at ASF the focus would be on facts first and ideology second. I think that is the only reasonable way to have a constructive discussion concerning real world events. In terms of the level of debate, I would rather try and raise the bar than lower it.


----------



## qldfrog (5 July 2016)

Joe Blow said:


> From my perspective this is an issue of quality of information. If people wish to discuss hypotheticals then that is fine, but if the discussion is in relation to actual events then it is critical that the facts of what actually transpired are established. In order to do that, sources must be cited. The internet is awash with false and misleading information because political agenda pushing, on both the left and the right, is more important to some than what actually occurred.
> 
> I would hope that at ASF the focus would be on facts first and ideology second. I think that is the only reasonable way to have a constructive discussion concerning real world events. In terms of the level of debate, I would rather try and raise the bar than lower it.



My full support: we can always add a link for people interested in either the facts or teh concept behind


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## luutzu (6 July 2016)

noco said:


> *FINALLY SOMEONE STANDS UP TO THEM!!
> Cargill meat plant fires 150 Muslims
> Pray rather than work...
> 
> ...





Dam Muslims wanting to take breaks to pray? These meat guys won't even let other real American (and Latino) workers off to take a wee.

I thought Obama has done a few bang up jobs against terrorists noco - ever increasing droning of "suspect" (and surroundings), ever increasing expansion in the ME. But true, he hasn't taken on all Muslims though.

Trump will take on about 1/7th of the world's people; then continue against the Russian and the Chinese; then Mother Nature. Wow man, talk about bring down the house.


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## SirRumpole (6 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Dam Muslims wanting to take breaks to pray? These meat guys won't even let other real American (and Latino) workers off to take a wee.
> 
> I thought Obama has done a few bang up jobs against terrorists noco - ever increasing droning of "suspect" (and surroundings), ever increasing expansion in the ME. But true, he hasn't taken on all Muslims though.
> 
> Trump will take on about 1/7th of the world's people; then continue against the Russian and the Chinese; then Mother Nature. Wow man, talk about bring down the house.




Welcome back luu. Have a good trip ? Hows life OS, does it make you want to emigrate ?


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## qldfrog (6 July 2016)

Welcome back Luutzu, in full strenght I can see;
How was the paradise of cultural mixity Europe?
Any more clue on how to answer the title of this thread?


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## luutzu (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Welcome back luu. Have a good trip ? Hows life OS, does it make you want to emigrate ?




Thanks SirR.

Trip is very different with three toddlers. I've lived through that Home Alone scene a few times over on this one trip - a miracle didn't leave any kid behind   Man I've rode mopeds in Phuket and all the major VNese cities, but travelling with kids and deadlines bring panic to a new level.

Australia is definitely the place to be for me. Won't be emigrating anywhere. And that's not just the light wallet and old age talking either. We're quite lucky here in Australia. So glad to be home.


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## luutzu (7 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Welcome back Luutzu, in full strenght I can see;
> How was the paradise of cultural mixity Europe?
> Any more clue on how to answer the title of this thread?




Thanks qldfrog. 

I didn't mix much with the barbarians in Europe so don't know. Got shortchanged a few times by the (white) French though but thought I shouldn't think all French businesses are like that 

Seriously, I bought 4 Grande (large) coffee at a station to go... when we managed to start drinking we found they're all at slightly above half the size of their cup.

The Africans around the Eiffel Tower flogging touristsy merchandise I thought was cool - managed to buy off of them bucketloads of Eiffel models for less than the price of one I saw in a souvenir shop nearby  

Probably best not to buy bottled water from the other (Arab Muslims?)... Was at a park and saw two of them at a tap doing something with buckets of their water bottles. They might be just filling up the bucket to mix the ice around the bottles, but didn't want to stare at entrepreneurs doing their enterprising stuff 


It is a beautiful city though. Great architecture. I like the standard fascade you guys got going for the blocks... stayed behind one of them and it's a bit tight though. Reminds me a lot of VN, ahem... Though I think the French have lost their coffee skill while VN still has its unique coffee taste of the old era.

------

Maybe we were staying close to the city but the prices on everything seems a bit high. Not sure how ordinary French people could afford it. I mean, we eat out in Sydney once a while and would be paying half the price for similar meals. 

Saw more than a few beggars and homeless people in and around Paris. So yea, I'd be pretty upset seeing how the country and its people are living.

But if you look at the real reason behind the decline, it's not because of illegals and Muslims. Continuous wars everywhere; ever more generous tax breaks for the rich and corporations... something got to give and since it ain't peace or trickle down economics, the poor and working class have to pay - paid with both reduced benefits to themselves and increasing taxation to pay for those imperial/neocon policies.

It's probably harder to see that since we would think that France, or any country, was rich and the political system and politicians have always been doing what they have. That since the only obvious change are the new faces and barbaric ways our civilised societies have to go bomb and liberate... It's understandable. But not true.

Anyway, that's for another day.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> So glad to be home.




You are a true Australian sir.


----------



## luutzu (7 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You are a true Australian sir.




Woohoo 

Lucky country this. Let's not screw it up. Canberra here I come. ha ha  Maybe Canterbury City Council or something.


----------



## qldfrog (15 July 2016)

The green plague has struck again.The western civilisation is doomed if it persists in its denial.


----------



## dutchie (15 July 2016)

Dozens dead as vehicle crashed into crowd in Nice, France

At least 80 people, including several children have been killed according to the French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve. At least 18 are in a critical condition.

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...e/news-story/5a9cca970737255f6fd82a6a4d840946

When are we going to stop all muslim immigration ?


----------



## CanOz (15 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> When are we going to stop all muslim immigration ?




That, my friend is exactly what IS want...All out war.


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## luutzu (15 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> That, my friend is exactly what IS want...All out war.




To win wars, you do exactly what the enemy wants you to. That's the thinking behind our "War on Terror".

It'd be funny if our very own lives aren't at risk because of these politicians.

It's upsetting to see what terrorists do to us... but that you can kind of explain away because that's what enemies do.

What really screws with your head is that the leaders we entrust our security to are making things worst - are causing insecurity and danger to us.

I'm sick of our own leadership giving empty words about "thoughts and prayers" with the victims family; then rant about evil terrorists; then fake their anger and act all heroic by sending more jets over to "avenge" us.

It's so freaking predictable.


----------



## CanOz (15 July 2016)

I tell you what, i find myself getting super observant in crowds...at times i think 'wow, what a perfect place for some kind of terror event'... 

On the positive side i guess i'm alert to it, but man have they (the sick, lost souls that do this sh**) managed to change us.


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## SirRumpole (15 July 2016)

I reckon a lot of people who voted for Brexit are now even more glad that they did, and people who didn't vote for Brexit are secretly relieved that it got through.

Mind you, I think the damage has already been done in Britain.


----------



## luutzu (15 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I reckon a lot of people who voted for Brexit are now even more glad that they did, and people who didn't vote for Brexit are secretly relieved that it got through.
> 
> Mind you, I think the damage has already been done in Britain.




They might be glad, but doesn't mean they're right.

Come on now... let's not lose our sense of rationality. 

The anger is justified, but think about it... if Islam or Muslim is the cause, we'd be witnessing these kind of terrorism every single day, maybe a few times a day seeing how there are more than a few Muslims around us.

The kind of "solution" and nonsense our media and politicians are feeding us will either bankrupt or corrupt us, or both. 

We've been waging warS on terror for a while now. Doesn't seem like it's working. So double and triple down on it... or give peace a chance, as some English dude once sing about.

I and other Asians can't wait til China start a couple of wars with the West... by the sound of things, we'd be in some camp somewhere outback.


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## SirRumpole (15 July 2016)

> if Islam or Muslim is the cause,




So it's just a coincidence that all these terrorists are Muslims ?

Fair suck of the sauce mate !


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> The kind of "solution" and nonsense our media and politicians are feeding us will either bankrupt or corrupt us, or both.
> 
> We've been waging warS on terror for a while now. Doesn't seem like it's working. So double and triple down on it... or give peace a chance, as some English dude once sing about.



One reality could be like the IRA (RIRA) situation in which there is a constant running battle with the British. Push me shove you, tit for tat type of mentality. The Islamic extremist movement needs impressionable (suicidal tendency preferable) recruits to do the dirty work. As one dies another replaces them. The extremists talk about the invaders and the infidels. They probably mean Bush and company. Bush(s) in retirement while the consequences perpetuate. Tossers.


----------



## Boggo (15 July 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> One reality could be like the IRA (RIRA) situation in which there is a constant running battle with the British. Push me shove you, tit for tat type of mentality.




A clue, if the pommy invaders had Brexit all of Ireland 100 years ago the problem wouldn't exist today.
Now what is the battle issue again


----------



## luutzu (16 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> So it's just a coincidence that all these terrorists are Muslims ?
> 
> Fair suck of the sauce mate !




Not as much of a coincidence as the Middle East being "liberated" and "democratized" because it has a lot of oil.

When we invade another and colonise their country, what do we expect to happen? That they'd just bow down and suck it up?

Then when we expand that to now droning over 7 Islamic/Middle Eastern countries; occupying and waging war on some 5 of them; arming and supporting brutal regimes (Saudi Arabia, Israel), overthrowing democratically elected gov't (Egypt recently)... it is hard for people to not see that we're waging wars on Islam and Muslims.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way justifying terrorism and violence. Just that if we want this kind of atrocity to end, we better open our eyes and demand "our leaders" get their head out of warmongers and profiteers azz and start give us honest talks and real solutions. 

Read a bit of what Hollande said right after the attack; or what Trump and Clinton said... that we will be smarter and tougher, we will not back down. Then France is going to send their jets for a few more sorties. 

Have "we" been soft on terrorists? Are there targets in the ME and at home where we know a terrorist is hiding but thought not to bomb them, not until this latest tragedy? Now that they kill more of our people, we're going to do it?

So over the next few days, France and allies is going to bomb a few sites somewhere in the ME. And if we follow the logic - that we have been at war and if there are known terrorists or some potential terrorist we'd bomb them already - then what we'd be doing is killing more innocent people, people around targets we thought weren't warrant a few tomahawk and hellfire... until now.


----------



## luutzu (16 July 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> One reality could be like the IRA (RIRA) situation in which there is a constant running battle with the British. Push me shove you, tit for tat type of mentality. The Islamic extremist movement needs impressionable (suicidal tendency preferable) recruits to do the dirty work. As one dies another replaces them. The extremists talk about the invaders and the infidels. They probably mean Bush and company. Bush(s) in retirement while the consequences perpetuate. Tossers.




Heard from Democracy Now that since France declare martial law (state of emergency) from last November's attack, they have conducted something like 3000 raids - mostly, if not all, on Muslim communities.

Of those 3000 raids, only 6 arrest/charges are laid. 

In the US, there's Trump... then there's Newt Ginrich saying all Muslim should be looked at, and if they believe in Sharia Law then they need to be deported. 

Watch what one former CIA analyst (Michael Scherer?) said was Bin Laden's plans from 911 and see how insane it is that our "best and brightest" in power are walking right into his trap. Wars everywhere abroad, further impoverishing the people at home, alienating minorities and increasing the chances of their recruiting among us.


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## Gringotts Bank (16 July 2016)

Idealism is dangerous - that's my conclusion.  

The Idealism being pursued by Western politicians worldwide is: "be open and accepting of all".  Such a mantra is better as an *aim*, not a *way of life*.  This is the *critical error* they have made.

Growth towards such an aim means that sometimes expansion/openness/acceptance is the right way, and sometimes contraction/closure/judgment/rejection is the right way forward.

If you're holding a house party, do you advertise it on social media?  Sure you do... if you want your house completely trashed.  As you clean up the next day and assess the enormous damage, you can console yourself that you are open and accepting of all.  Not too concerned about the impact on the neighbours, you can rest easy that you are a "good person".


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## wayneL (16 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Not as much of a coincidence as the Middle East being "liberated" and "democratized" because it has a lot of oil.
> 
> When we invade another and colonise their country, what do we expect to happen? That they'd just bow down and suck it up?
> 
> ...




You're missing something though Grasshopper.

Who have been the subject of Islamic terrorism?

It is not the perpetrators of such wars and interference etc, vis a vis Western *Governments/Military*, it is ordinary folks not remotely interested in fighting, Men, Women, little boys, little girls.

Just like the innocent folks the Evil bastard ran over with his truck, just out for a nice night out to celebrate a holiday.

This will harden our hearts and set us ordinary folk against them... and indeed all Muslims.

It will not end well and innocents will suffer the most.


----------



## wayneL (16 July 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Idealism is dangerous - that's my conclusion.
> 
> The Idealism being pursued by Western politicians worldwide is: "be open and accepting of all".  Such a mantra is better as an *aim*, not a *way of life*.  This is the *critical error* they have made.
> 
> ...




Fantastic analogy. True, true.


----------



## luutzu (16 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> You're missing something though Grasshopper.
> 
> Who have been the subject of Islamic terrorism?
> 
> ...




So there are no "collateral damage" committed by the coalition of the willing?

You read about weddings being bombs/droned right? Know why? Due to "signature" targeting - i.e. if there's a group of Muslims getting together, chances are they're up to no good - so take them out.

But let's ignore the "opps" our drone operators and military operations cause - that, we're told by our good looking news media, are accidents made with the best of intentions. And as the FBI will tell you, it's the intention that counts.

What about the tens of millions of refugees and internally displaced Muslims and Arabs from the wars we started there?

I'm betting they were just sitting home after a hard day's work tryng to put food on the table.. and now there's no home to go to and only the desert and a tent - if they're lucky.


----------



## luutzu (16 July 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Idealism is dangerous - that's my conclusion.
> 
> The Idealism being pursued by Western politicians worldwide is: "be open and accepting of all".  Such a mantra is better as an *aim*, not a *way of life*.  This is the *critical error* they have made.
> 
> ...




Say we close our borders, don't take in anymore (Muslim) folks... what do we do about the ones that's already here? 

tell them to abandon their religion? Dress "properly"? Democratise the heck out of them until their Allah is God?

Seriously, you think our leaders are being idealistic? Teachers, nurses... you may find idealists there... not in corridors or power.


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## luutzu (16 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Fantastic analogy. True, true.




How is that analogy true?

Our official policy is open borders to the cool kids - ones with money, lots of it. Those cool kids can come in and trash or buy the place all they want.

The uncool kids... the ones who flee on foot, cross the desert and the seas seeking refuge. Go away you dirty illegal terrorists who's running away from war and terrorism.


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## wayneL (16 July 2016)

Typical of all lefties, you love your strawman fallacies grasshopper


----------



## Gringotts Bank (16 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Say we close our borders, don't take in anymore (Muslim) folks... what do we do about the ones that's already here?
> 
> tell them to abandon their religion? Dress "properly"? Democratise the heck out of them until their Allah is God?
> 
> Seriously, you think our leaders are being idealistic? Teachers, nurses... you may find idealists there... not in corridors or power.




Radically different cultures should never be mixed in together.  It's never worked anywhere in the world.  

It would be good if it was possible, but it's not.  Let them do their thing in the ME.  They can pray all day and wear whatever headgear they like.


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## Wysiwyg (16 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> So over the next few days, France and allies is going to bomb a few sites somewhere in the ME. And if we follow the logic - that we have been at war and if there are known terrorists or some potential terrorist we'd bomb them already - then what we'd be doing is killing more innocent people, people around targets we thought weren't warrant a few tomahawk and hellfire... until now.



I agree for the foreseeable future that if one fragment of the snake is left alive after being "obliterated" (an American senator quote) there is the possibility of continuity. There will either be satisfaction for the jihadists, meaning the war against people they feel oppressed by has achieved its goals or an intergenerational hate fest that will eventually peter out as the hatred dissipates.        



Gringotts Bank said:


> Idealism is dangerous - that's my conclusion.
> 
> The Idealism being pursued by Western politicians worldwide is: "be open and accepting of all".  Such a mantra is better as an *aim*, not a *way of life*.  This is the *critical error* they have made.
> 
> ...



My analogy is that there are many cats in the world but they all don't live together. The reality is that all ideologies do not mix well and oppressive ideologies live in isolation or are repelled. People move toward being freer not into ideological slavery, especially in Australia.    



Gringotts Bank said:


> Radically different cultures should never be mixed in together.  It's never worked anywhere in the world.
> 
> It would be good if it was possible, but it's not.  Let them do their thing in the ME.  They can pray all day and wear whatever headgear they like.



That's 100% correct. The English (country) microcosm of Islamic Law levering into a society is an example.


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## luutzu (16 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Typical of all lefties, you love your strawman fallacies grasshopper




I don't think it's some made up stuff. I'm not even criticising it either. What is it? Skilled migration.

If a foreigner, be they Muslim or Arab or Chinese... if they have a company to sponsor, or if they have enough cash in the bank and certain skills... pass security and health checks, then they're all welcomed. No?

Poor or refugees with nothing... No! terrorist! Illegal! Religious fanatic!

I guess there are realities we just don't want to see.


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## luutzu (16 July 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Radically different cultures should never be mixed in together.  It's never worked anywhere in the world.
> 
> It would be good if it was possible, but it's not.  Let them do their thing in the ME.  They can pray all day and wear whatever headgear they like.




Australia is an example of a very successful multi-cultural society. There are many other examples, even in Europe. Actually, Europe was one of the most successful until past couple of decades. Reasons for the decline? Economics, Austerity and the blaming of bad policies on the poor, the weak and the migrants.

We all travel now and then right? To different countries, seeing different cultures. Why is it that we don't have Muslims in Indonesia all attacking us the moment we step off the plane? Or the Thais or Chinese etc. etc. Maybe because we're not at war with them.

Anyway, we're focusing on the wrong issue, and in doing so, we're putting both ourselves and other innocent people here and abroad at risk. Heck, I just got home from Paris... and believe me, my wife and I have lost sleep over travelling there. That crazy shiet in Nice that terrorist did could easily had happen to us. So I'm not theorising and ignoring reality.

But we have to stop idolising our leaders and politicians. Think critically. 

They've taken us on this war on terror for a while now... we've apparently spared no expense, and they apparently don't mind sacrificing other people's kids... are we safer after all that?


----------



## luutzu (16 July 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> I agree for the foreseeable future that if one fragment of the snake is left alive after being "obliterated" (an American senator quote) there is the possibility of continuity. There will either be satisfaction for the jihadists, meaning the war against people they feel oppressed by has achieved its goals or an intergenerational hate fest that will eventually peter out as the hatred dissipates...




If we leave it up to politicians, the wars in the ME will never end. Even if the world no longer runs on oil.


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## mjim (17 July 2016)

3rd party view
I am not a Muslim , nor a Christian or a Jew, 
To us this is a age old conflict between Islam and Christianity
All over the world both religions have tried to convert others and have racked havoc in the process.

Christians did it with a mixture of commerce/ social service and war but the "agenda" is always to convert others
Muslims did it with the help of war and brutality and same agenda

Having said that I must say that there is some "fundamental issue" with some followers of Islam and wider democratic multi faith society. 
Other religions ( including Christian ) dont seems to have the same problem or at least to the same extent.
The west is realizing this problem now ,  other religions have experienced it for long time ago. Before 9/11 India ( which is a multifaith republic irrespective of the fact that it is dominated by one religion) for example has suffered  Islamic terrorist both home grown and overseas, 

A question to the bleeding heart lefty and Muslim:
- Have you got the guts to call spade a spade? Every Muslim is not a terrorist agreed but many terrorist seems to be of Muslim faith! why? have you investigated?
-  What is paramount Nationhood or Religion specially if you are a resident and citizen of a multi faith country?, You ask me I say Country first as long as that country is based on liberal  democratic values
- If your anger towards Western Christian  race is because of some local injustice ( Palestine) I can understand the anger , but how does that make it ok to go around the world and kill people? So lets use the same logic 
India ( 80% Hindu) was ruled by British for more than 150 years, and that ended only 70 years ago
So using the "logic of oppressed"  the Indian ( Mainly Hindus) should be going around killing Britishers sine 1947...

How many Hindus/ Budhists and Sikhs you see blowing themselves in the western world?

but are you capable and willing to co exists with other faiths? without calling them Kafirs?

A question to the R wing fanatics or those who seat on fence

- In the western world are you against just Muslim migration or Miigration in total?
- You think the Muslim suicide bombers is a barbaric act, correct but what do you call the drone attacks just because they look like video games are the Cool?

So lets be balanced in analyzing this lets not be naive...


----------



## Tink (18 July 2016)

Our heritage is Christian, which I have said a few times, and still run through our parliament.
The foundations of Western Civilization.



> To us this is a age old conflict between Islam and Christianity




To look at France and History --

_One of the most important events in all of history occurred on October 10, 732 – in France. 
This was a massively decisive event in Europe: it basically meant that Christianity and Western Civilisation would continue. 
Had a different outcome occurred, many historians think that Islam would have taken over all of Europe.

Thus we must know a little bit about a key battle in history: the Battle of Tours, also known as the Battle of Poitiers.
It was one of those dividing lines in human history.

The Frankish military leader Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer), defeated the invading Muslim forces of the Umayyad Caliphate which were twice the number of his forces, and stopping Islamic expansion into the rest of Europe._


----------



## qldfrog (18 July 2016)

Tink said:


> Our heritage is Christian, which I have said a few times, and still run through our parliament.
> The foundations of Western Civilization.
> 
> 
> ...



And the west survived and prospered for nearly 1300y before inaptitude and treason a la Merkel finished the war without a single fire shot and let Europe fall back in the dark ages.This will be completed no doubt by 2032.


----------



## Tisme (18 July 2016)

mjim said:


> 3rd party view
> I am not a Muslim , nor a Christian or a Jew,
> To us this is a age old conflict between Islam and Christianity
> 
> ...




It's Muslims against everyone, China, Russia, as you pointed out India, etc. I think it's basically driven by a pedigree tribe whose breeding is equivalent to rogue animals ... it's in their DNA and promulgated by another huge breed of the traditionally subjugated drones who attach themselves like schoolkids to the dominant bully.

Why we see examples of genetics and selective breeding at play in dogs, cats, horses, etc, but ignore it in humans escapes me. It's nought to do with eugenics or superior race, but a simple acceptance that people are different at their core and will gravitate to people with similar primal drivers.

Meanwhile Maleny Milk:



> Maleny Milk in QLD refuse to become halal certified, now they have gone one better and put the Christian logo on their product.


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## basilio (18 July 2016)

Strength through Unity
Unity through Faith​


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2016)

> but a simple acceptance that people are different at their core and will gravitate to people with similar primal drivers.




Most of it (religion) is inherited, passed down from father to son with indoctrination beginning at the youngest ages (Baptism and whatever Muslims do), and then religious schools after that.

The first step in getting rid of this nonsense is for the taxpayer to stop funding religious schools and prevent religion being taught in State schools and to expel students for proselytizing.

But of course that would be hurting people's feelings wouldn't it ?


----------



## Tink (18 July 2016)

We don't live in a dictatorship, Rumpole, therefore I believe in choice, as I have stated in the education thread, and that goes for private hospitals also.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25851&page=6


----------



## Tisme (18 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Most of it (religion) is inherited, passed down from father to son with indoctrination beginning at the youngest ages (Baptism and whatever Muslims do), and then religious schools after that.
> 
> The first step in getting rid of this nonsense is for the taxpayer to stop funding religious schools and prevent religion being taught in State schools and to expel students for proselytizing.
> 
> But of course that would be hurting people's feelings wouldn't it ?




I have muslim acquaintances who were sent to Catholic schools by their parents and did the same with theirs kids.

I think religion is a secondary driver for thuggish behaviour, along with poverty, mob mentality, etc. I'd even go so far as to say extreme brutality may even be a learned attitude. The real core in charge of mayhem are more likely cold and calculating who make trouble because they can, manipulating the gullible in the process.


----------



## basilio (18 July 2016)

*Strength through Unity
Unity through Faith*​


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2016)

Tink said:


> We don't live in a dictatorship, Rumpole, therefore I believe in choice, as I have stated in the education thread, and that goes for private hospitals also.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25851&page=6




Certainly you can choose Tink, but not with my money.

If you want to pay choose private education or health, then be prepared to pay for it with your own money and without taxpayer subsidies.


----------



## luutzu (18 July 2016)

mjim said:


> 3rd party view
> I am not a Muslim , nor a Christian or a Jew,
> To us this is a age old conflict between Islam and Christianity
> All over the world both religions have tried to convert others and have racked havoc in the process.
> ...




I don't believe in this Lefty/Righty stuff. We're just people who see things differently on certain issue (and likewise would agree on other issue). But let's address the issues you raised.

- Have you got the guts to call spade a spade? Every Muslim is not a terrorist agreed but many terrorist seems to be of Muslim faith! why? have you investigated?


Yea, we call a spade a spade. If a Muslim commit act of terrorism, we call it terrorism. If a White person commit terrorism, we also call it terrorism. 

Terrorists are all Muslims because we in the West call murderous crimes by Muslim "terrorism". So when "we" or our ally drone or flatten city blocks, killing countless innocent people - it's called what? Collateral Damage? Technical error?

But if we define Terrorism as a violent act on civilians/soft target, designed to serve a political/military objective, then those carried out by Muslims against their enemy are simply murderous acts of war carried out by a weaker opponent against their enemy.

It's a tool of those fighting asymetric/guerrilla warfare.

Give the same group advanced weapon systems and they'd gladly do the same shiet (or much worst atrocities) without having to blow themselves up.

So terrorism and terrorists is not a Muslim or Islamic thing. It's an act of war, tit for tat thing.

So why then are terrorists carrying out terrorism on our soil all Muslims? Maybe because we're invading or controlling just about all Islamic/Arab countries in the world (except for Indonesia until recently)? Some Muslim and Arabs might not like their country being invaded and thought to bring to war to its enemy. 



-  What is paramount Nationhood or Religion specially if you are a resident and citizen of a multi faith country?, You ask me I say Country first as long as that country is based on liberal  democratic values


If country first as long as its value align with yours then it ought to be value-first.

History, both ancient and current, have plenty of examples where liberal, enlightened, advanced, democratic and otherwise awesome country doing plenty of nasty, barbaric stuff (on "other" people). 

Should a citizen of such country support such barbarism because it's their country?

Part of being enlightened and have value systems worth shouting about is to be objective, call a spade a spade and thereby lose friends and going nowhere in the world.


- If your anger towards Western Christian  race is because of some local injustice ( Palestine) I can understand the anger , but how does that make it ok to go around the world and kill people? So lets use the same logic 
India ( 80% Hindu) was ruled by British for more than 150 years, and that ended only 70 years ago
So using the "logic of oppressed"  the Indian ( Mainly Hindus) should be going around killing Britishers sine 1947...

It's never OK to kill people. Terrorists can justify it, but it is never justifiable. 

But your example of British imperialism in India and today's imperialism against Muslim/Arab is false. That is, the Arabs are currently still being oppressed and colonised. There's a bunch of foreign military bases and boots on their ground kicking their azz and taking their oil. 

So Western colonialism in the ME didn't end when the British empire shrunk - the British were forced out by the American after WW2. The American model their imperial ambition on that of the British (one that's used by all previous imperial power anyway)... the model is to support and armed certain group, let them carry out their peacekeepings, built whatever palaces they want as long as the oil, the cash and other loots flow where you want it to... and just in case they get out of line, you got a few battalion stationed off just over the horizon.

So colonialism and all those bad stuff didn't end after two atomic bombs were dropped. It's the same ways of "great powers" doing their great deeds and dividing up the world to exploit, again. This time with the two powers that survived Hitler and winning the race to Berlin scooping up Hitler's military/industrial brain trust.

That or, of course, we in the West go forth and really, seriously, honestly, civilise and democratize countries with a lot of oil and great strategic advantages - even if it mean having to fund religious nuts of a state like the Saudis or the Israelis; or Saddam (before we don't like him anymore); or overthrowing democratic Iran and installing the Shah.


----------



## luutzu (18 July 2016)

Tink said:


> Our heritage is Christian, which I have said a few times, and still run through our parliament.
> The foundations of Western Civilization.
> 
> 
> ...




I thought Western Civilisation got its cool stuff from the Greeks and the Romans. The Greeks worshipped Zeus; the Romans all kind of weird stuff. 

Long before Christ came around, the Greeks had long established their democracy thing; The Romans had gotten rid of their Kings and play with parliamentary houses at home and military outposts abroad - even putting up with funny religion like Judaism and laughing at news of some carpenter claiming to be the son of God.

So without Christianity, Western civilisation would still go on... it may even have gotten more liberal and more scientifically advanced much sooner if it weren't for Christianity. I mean, homosexual still have a hard time in our wonderful Christian civilisation.


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## SirRumpole (18 July 2016)

> But if we define Terrorism as a violent act on civilians/soft target, designed to serve a political/military objective, then those carried out by Muslims against their enemy are simply murderous acts of war carried out by a weaker opponent against their enemy.




Don't be silly luu. The West has to kill, maim and destroy. We represent all that is wholesome and decent in the world.





> So without Christianity, Western civilisation would still go on... it may even have gotten more liberal and more scientifically advanced much sooner if it weren't for Christianity. I mean, homosexual still have a hard time in our wonderful Christian civilisation.




You don't think that there is such a thing as a secular society ? It's not about Muslims v Christians, it's about Muslims v everyone else. They are the ones killing in the name of their religion, the West do it to create slave states.. oops sorry, freedom loving democracies.


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## luutzu (18 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Don't be silly luu. The West has to kill, maim and destroy. We represent all that is wholesome and decent in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yea, ahem. 

But to be fair, all states also do bad things for good reasons. Just they're not as convincing to our media and politicians as they'd like to be.


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## bellenuit (18 July 2016)

Unusual to find something on Fox News that has merit....


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## qldfrog (18 July 2016)

quite interesting indeed


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## luutzu (18 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Unusual to find something on Fox News that has merit....





Soo... Liberals are setting low standards for minority and harming Muslims if they don't believe Islam has anything to do with acts of terror?

Liberals should open their eyes to the nastiness of Islam - what with its anti-gay, anti women backwardness.

Let's unpack that...

I don't think any Liberal would deny the backwardness and, say, Koran bashing, of Islam. It's a religion, and any and all religion are backwards and screwy. Any Liberal will tell you that.

So to say that Liberals are closing their eyes to the regressive ideology in religious Islam is just false. Liberal and any honest person will call Islam for what it is... they will also call Christianity and Judaism and all other religion for what they are too.

But to link Islam to all acts of terror... that's just idiotic. It's ill-informed; has no basis in facts; and worst - it leads to direct or indirect consent to kill innocent people - well, they're not really "innocent" if they're Muslim because all Muslim are terrorists, I guess.

It's incredible how we, and our politicians, could get away with these kind of rubbish. I mean, when a Muslim person heroically save Jewish or victims of terror attacks... are those Muslims not really following Islam? When a terrorist who by all account is not religious, drinks and womanise... that terrorist got radicalised rapidly? 

I guess if our leaders were to suggest that maybe they hate us because we invade their country - a lot more of us citizens of (technically) democratic countries might start demanding a stop to foreign adventures. 

But if we're told that they hate us because of their Islam, maybe that'd make it easier to spend billions "keeping the peace", protecting us from nasty terrorists without an airforce or a Navy, or much of any serious armament.


----------



## qldfrog (18 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Soo... Liberals are setting low standards for minority and harming Muslims if they don't believe Islam has anything to do with acts of terror?
> 
> Liberals should open their eyes to the nastiness of Islam - what with its anti-gay, anti women backwardness.
> 
> ...



Same record, still in denial and still not not daring to actually read the Koran to have an informed opinion?
Is this right wing and racist to ask you to read the Koran : you are lucky enough not to live with/among hard core  or even just non liberal muslims;
Islam is not only a religion,  it is a way of life based on an expansionist arab sect which converts by the sword;
Has been very successfull following what are now its worst issuesto my opinion as hard core muslims would consider this purety):
  absence of change, negation of women, atheists or others believers, or even individual rights should you be muslim or not, and we can add removal of free spirit and preventing people to think/get educated.
You will never face the truth as it could scare you.Must feel good to be in your shoes with rightful thinkings, very confortable ..if only the world was that simple.


----------



## luutzu (18 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Same record, still in denial and still not not daring to actually read the Koran to have an informed opinion?
> Is this right wing and racist to ask you to read the Koran : you are lucky enough not to live with/among hard core  or even just non liberal muslims;
> Islam is not only a religion,  it is a way of life based on an expansionist arab sect which converts by the sword;
> Has been very successfull following what are now its worst issuesto my opinion as hard core muslims would consider this purety):
> ...




Can't be just the Lefty hippies who find it easier to believe that people would go to war for profit than go to free people they're either indifference to or don't particularly like in the first place.

All these back and forth asides, terrorism and war are just too horrific to not take seriously. May surprise you that I put more thought into the subject than what most politicians appear to be - judging by their tough talks and fighting spirit.


Did you know that intelligence agencies in the US, Britain, and I think also Australia... all warn and advise against the Iraqi Invasion? They say that there is no evidence of Saddam being a threat to Western security interests; that an invasion will destablise the Middle East and most likely increase terrorism at home.

What did our great leaders who thought of nothing but our security do when given such advise?

Bring 'em on.


----------



## Tisme (18 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Unusual to find something on Fox News that has merit....





Railing against the paternalistic attitude of the west that created empire ... he's right though the civilised white do look at the various coloured races as lesser gifted and therefore don't hold them to the same standard as expected for whitey.

I was watching the Drum today where a Muslim woman felt aggrieved at Sonya Kruger's anti migration announcement and used the old cliche of Sonya not knowing the facts ....muslim beneficial facts of course that don't necessarily mirror the truth imo.


----------



## dutchie (19 July 2016)

Prime Minister Manuel Valls, who said that France must “learn to live with terrorism”.

So does Australia have to "learn to live with terrorism"?

and decry anyone who thinks differently.


----------



## luutzu (19 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> Prime Minister Manuel Valls, who said that France must “learn to live with terrorism”.
> 
> So does Australia have to "learn to live with terrorism"?
> 
> and decry anyone who thinks differently.




No, we shouldn't have to, don't have to, live with terrorism.

So either set up camps in the outback, deport all Muslims, or... I don't know, stop freaking invading Muslim countries.


----------



## wayneL (19 July 2016)

Sonia Kruger is my new hero.

...And its time for the left to get well and truly stuffed on this issue. She an opinion, a valid one under the current circumstances and she should never be ashamed to express it or, worse, that she can't express it.

The apology industry can go to Hell and stop trying to make our culture one.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Sonia Kruger is my new hero.
> 
> ...And its time for the left to get well and truly stuffed on this issue. She an opinion, a valid one under the current circumstances and she should never be ashamed to express it or, worse, that she can't express it.
> 
> The apology industry can go to Hell and stop trying to make our culture one.




By all means, let's get into government by celebrity, I'm sure they know better than the rest of us what is good for the country.


----------



## dutchie (19 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> By all means, let's get into government by celebrity, I'm sure they know better than the rest of us what is good for the country.




That is so obviously not the point.


----------



## wayneL (19 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> That is so obviously not the point.




Gawd not even in the same galaxy mate


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> That is so obviously not the point.




Yes, the point is that any wacko can get a spot on tv if they happen to be a celebrity, the quality of their views doesn't really matter, they just get a bigger megaphone than the rest of us.

Eddie MacGuire, Andrew Bolt for example.


----------



## luutzu (19 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, the point is that any wacko can get a spot on tv if they happen to be a celebrity, the quality of their views doesn't really matter, they just get a bigger megaphone than the rest of us.
> 
> Eddie MacGuire, Andrew Bolt for example.




That's a great point. Don't know what my Sifu and Dutchie was on about.


----------



## dutchie (19 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> That's a great point. Don't know what my Sifu and Dutchie was on about.




Ostriches don't get the point either.


----------



## luutzu (19 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> Ostriches don't get the point either.




  That's a good one. Got at least two layers to it.


----------



## Ves (19 July 2016)

The gaping contradiction in the neo-liberal politics that has been thrust upon us in the modern age is starting to become more and more obvious to even casual observers:   the rise of the corporatisation of everything and the globalisation of the economy do not fit in with the Conservative ideals of preservation of Tradition and religious morality.   

You cannot close territorial borders and maintain neo-liberal economic approaches at the same time.

Something has to give and it eventually will.  History shows us that society cannot live in fantasy land forever.


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## SirRumpole (19 July 2016)

dutchie said:


> Ostriches don't get the point either.




I think the government would be negligent if they did not find a quiet way to reduce Muslim immigration into this country, but going around with a loud hailer stirring up passions and enmity is not a great way of achieving any sort of result apart from more conflict, and it seems that a few self promoting media people are only interested in doing that sort of stuff to feed their own egos and their future careers as "outspoken and fearless representatives of the silent majority".


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## qldfrog (19 July 2016)

and so many more to come; I lived and worked in Wurzburghttp://http://time.com/4411643/wurzburg-train-axe-attack/


----------



## bellenuit (19 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the government would be negligent if they did not find a quiet way to reduce Muslim immigration into this country.


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> it seems that a few self promoting media people are only interested in doing that sort of stuff to feed their own egos and their future careers as "outspoken and fearless representatives of the silent majority".



As are some pretending to act as intelligence voice of reason/openness against rednecks/bogans (aka the Project and other left leaning media stars..)
neither hold the truth, neither will admit it;
But I agree on a slow proper filtering.Why on hell should we bring in not only welfare recipiens forever but future radical ghettos within our country?
Many persecuted christians , kurds, minoritires, chiites from Irak/Syria should be welcome before the salafists who can always go to their brothers' gulf states to find nirvana if they want to.


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## Wysiwyg (20 July 2016)

The program, The Big Question on the BBC, is a melting pot of thoughts from various religious affiliations. What interested me most was the great ideological differences between hard line and passive Muslims. The hard liners living in the extreme past context while the passives living in the present context of what it is to be a "Muslim". The hard liners hold onto the past as if they are the only true Muslims and to let it go it will be the end of Islam.


----------



## luutzu (20 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the government would be negligent if they did not find a quiet way to reduce Muslim immigration into this country, but going around with a loud hailer stirring up passions and enmity is not a great way of achieving any sort of result apart from more conflict, and it seems that a few self promoting media people are only interested in doing that sort of stuff to feed their own egos and their future careers as "outspoken and fearless representatives of the silent majority".




The Chilcot Iraq Enquiry concludes that Blair (and political leaders in the Coalition of the Willing) broke laws, exaggerate facts, lied and scared its people into an unprovoked war of aggression.

Being warned by their own intelligence agencies about the risks of terrorism on the homeland, they rushed into war - leading to the peace of is the ME today.

These are not negligence? By certain international conventions and laws, they're war crimes. 

But let the present be bygone and stomp on those nasty refugees running for their lives.


And we wonder why it was that the German people never see how crazy and murderous their Nazi leadership were.

They believe the Jews were evil and should be exported or do whatever the Fuhrer thought is just? How could they praise the Nazi war machines and believe it's keeping the peace and liberating all the countries all over Europe.

Yah, only the Nazi and the Communists know and use propaganda.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> The program, The Big Question on the BBC, is a melting pot of thoughts from various religious affiliations. What interested me most was the great ideological differences between hard line and passive Muslims. The hard liners living in the extreme past context while the passives living in the present context of what it is to be a "Muslim". The hard liners hold onto the past as if they are the only true Muslims and to let it go it will be the end of Islam.




I really can't see all that much difference in principle between the various factions in Islam vs the factions n the Liberal or Labor Party. The hardliners think they represent "true Liberalism" and therefore the moderates are traitors to the cause etc, and the moderates think they are the real deal and the hardliners are extremists.

Of course, when people start getting killed over these differences, the comparison ends but it's essentially the same argument.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Yah, only the Nazi and the Communists know and use propaganda.




No doubt certain people like Bush, Blair, Cheney and Howard stuffed things up, but to blame them totally for psychopathic murderers like ISIS is drawing a long bow.

Sure the West has to take criticism for creating ISIL, but should they (we ) be cleaning up the mess or should we be washing our hands and saying it's now someone else's problem ?


----------



## CanOz (20 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> No doubt certain people like Bush, Blair, Cheney and Howard stuffed things up, but to blame them totally for psychopathic murderers like ISIS is drawing a long bow.
> 
> Sure the West has to take criticism for creating ISIL, but should they (we ) be cleaning up the mess or should we be washing our hands and saying it's now someone else's problem ?




Yeah i agree, i totally blame the US for getting the allies into the war, but governments do what thier advisers suggest....If Cheney wanted war, he was going to get war. 

Even as i much as i detest Bush, he's just too gullible to take all the blame...Howard and Blair would have been pressured into it, strong armed. We should be very actively involved in re-settling/aiding refugees.


----------



## luutzu (20 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> No doubt certain people like Bush, Blair, Cheney and Howard stuffed things up, but to blame them totally for psychopathic murderers like ISIS is drawing a long bow.
> 
> Sure the West has to take criticism for creating ISIL, but should they (we ) be cleaning up the mess or should we be washing our hands and saying it's now someone else's problem ?




Maybe those wartime leaders of ours weren't bright enough to see the extend of the blowback, but ignorance is no excuse.

I mean, what would any reasonable person expect to happen in war? That we could just go over there, flatten their cities.. and... and the enemy wouldn't find ways to fight back?

Again, I'm not excusing these murders. But if we want to stop these attacks on innocent people, we might want to look at what else could be motivating those farkers beside their religion.

Reading the papers and listening to what politicians are saying... terrorists kill us because they're too Islamic, because they don't like our way of life - drinking and wearing bikinis right?

Why else would terrorists kill? Too much Islam in them. That's it.

And to pour flame on the fire... our domestic security policies are driving further wedges between communities and further marginalise its (suspect) citizens.

So now, not only are organised terrorist groups like ISIS are trying to recruit and plan attacks on our soil, any Arab with psychopathic urges could go and murder a bunch of people instead of blowing their own brains out at home.

-----

It is worth thinking about why bin Laden ordered the attacks on 9/11.

He didn't do it so that he could run away and hide in caves instead of being pretty comfortable under the Taliban. He didn't order it just to murder a few thousand Americans.

Remember that he was trained by the CIA. He fought against the Soviets and saw first hand how to defeat a much more superior enemy: you bankrupt them, you drain their resources, then watch as another powerful enemy pull the rug from under them.

We in the West are delivering more than that crazy prick could ever imagine.


----------



## noco (20 July 2016)

What the media do not us about the Islamic activity in France.

Is this what we can expect here if we allow more Muslims into Australia?


: PARIS AT WAR - MEDIA SILENCE - A MUST SEE !




Visit to Paris, anyone? It’ll be too late soon.

The people in France have had enough of these refugees, could you carry on your daily life with all this around you ?

Feel like visiting Paris anytime soon ???

France's tourism is going down the tube ! (probably the rest of Europe too!)

This was filmed by an independent dude and uploaded on YouTube

Make sure you watch clearly and see the dates ( all recent, in the past few months )

If you have the time and the nerve keep watching the following videos.

And you want to have the these trouble makers settle here in our country ?


Police in France seem helpless, should give these thugs a little of their own medicine

The Europeans are too soft, you can bet all our world leaders are watching this video as you are or have already done so and say itsPolitically incorrect to retaliate with violence !

That’s not what you would be saying if you lived around this mess and your property, your home, your family or your children weresubjected to this behaviour.

PASS THIS LINK ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW THAT IS CONCERNED THAT YOUR COUNTRY MAY BE EVENTUALLY SUBJECT TO THIS

https://www.youtube.com/embed/UD7UA1d-WnA


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## Wysiwyg (21 July 2016)

noco said:


> Police in France seem helpless, should give these thugs a little of their own medicine



That could have been an off shoot of the Labour Reform riots. From what I read, the labour reforms hand a lot of employer rights to layoff employees meaning an employee has lesser rights to employment and lesser rights as an employee. It's never the employers fault when business profits drop away.  How many Australian company executives blew hundreds of millions dollars on the resource euphoria? A   , nudge nudge there.

That was some reckless rioting connected to that Labour Reform. Matter of fact those youths are lucky they get away with bumps and bruises. In other countries they would be throwing their last stone before being shot dead. That is how wars start.


----------



## CanOz (21 July 2016)

noco said:


> What the media do not us about the Islamic activity in France.
> 
> Is this what we can expect here if we allow more Muslims into Australia?
> 
> ...





http://www.snopes.com/paris-muslim-siege-false/

Rubbish noco...


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## noco (21 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> http://www.snopes.com/paris-muslim-siege-false/
> 
> Rubbish noco...




Well, it did not take long to some back ground check on Snopes.

The link below indicates SNOPES got snoped.....It is a one man show and very unreliable in their accuracy of reporting.

They are Liberal biased and closely associated with the leftist ABC, Fact Check and Media Watch.

Nuff said. 

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/04/27/snopes-liberal-bias-and-trusting-the-internet/


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2016)

it is extreme may /may not have been triggered by the labour law demonstration indeed;
But if you watch the footage instead of just saying "rubbish"
the location is NOT the demonstrationarea: you can see the suspended metro-> toward Barbes area (north east of Paris where there are no march ever organised (streets too narrows);
to confirm: the corner shop being vandalised and center of these footages is "Soleil maghrebin" 1:52
38 Boulevard Barbes - 75018 PARIS
=> so these footages are taken  Boulevard Barbes  and can not be related to the labour law demonstrations;
the sorry point is that I have to do this to even put back truth in the debate.
Salafism is the new Nazi of this world, and people have been so brainwashed that they can not even admit facts.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36837108
but it is just obviously a mad man, again and again and again..denial will not solve problem


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/Frederic.Esnault01/videos/1019489478101283/
For people who can understand French, an interview of a cofounder of SOS racism (the key anti racism organisatio in france) so NOT a Far right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malek_Boutih , local MP in Paris suburbs talking about what has to be done and how France need to  act now against the green plague!
If a son of migrants, arab, left wing MP start saying that maybe maybe it is time to wake up!


----------



## CanOz (21 July 2016)

noco said:


> Well, it did not take long to some back ground check on Snopes.
> 
> The link below indicates SNOPES got snoped.....It is a one man show and very unreliable in their accuracy of reporting.
> 
> ...




ITs not 'nuff said'...i said its rubbish because you posted something that is not true...its scare mongering.


----------



## noco (21 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> ITs not 'nuff said'...i said its rubbish because you posted something that is not true...its scare mongering.




So you did not like Snopes being caught out as unreliable.

They are a bit like that commo paper the Guardian who distort the truth.


----------



## CanOz (21 July 2016)

noco said:


> So you did not like Snopes being caught out as unreliable.
> 
> They are a bit like that commo paper the Guardian who distort the truth.




Not really, they've been pretty handy in countering allot of 'rubbish' posted on social media....which by the way is far more of a scourge than traditional media...


----------



## luutzu (21 July 2016)

noco said:


> What the media do not us about the Islamic activity in France.
> 
> Is this what we can expect here if we allow more Muslims into Australia?
> 
> ...




"The Europeans are too soft..."

ahh man. 

Sometime crimes happen because the criminals feel there are injustices in the world; there are no other choice; they'd be locked up either way... Sometime they're just not brought up right. That or it's all because of their barbaric religion.

Islam, a religion hell bend on taking over the world and need to be washed out and replaced it with a kinder, gentler Christian value too soft to colonise any part of the world, ever.


----------



## luutzu (21 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.facebook.com/Frederic.Esnault01/videos/1019489478101283/
> For people who can understand French, an interview of a cofounder of SOS racism (the key anti racism organisatio in france) so NOT a Far right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malek_Boutih , local MP in Paris suburbs talking about what has to be done and how France need to  act now against the green plague!
> If a son of migrants, arab, left wing MP start saying that maybe maybe it is time to wake up!




See qldfrog, give a migrant/refugee a few decades and they'll start beating on "not-genuine" refugees and barbarians too.


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> See qldfrog, give a migrant/refugee a few decades and they'll start beating on "not-genuine" refugees and barbarians too.




if playing the dum you are really good; it does not fit well with your ideas that I can be against the invasion without being racist.Dum and dummer.In 1936, you would have been praising the athletic performance of the hitlerian youth and praise Chamberlain: no war, all good, what camps?


----------



## luutzu (21 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> if playing the dum you are really good; it does not fit well with your ideas that I can be against the invasion without being racist.Dum and dummer.In 1936, you would have been praising the athletic performance of the hitlerian youth and praise Chamberlain: no war, all good, what camps?




Speaking of the Nazi, some of their artworks.





Yes. They weren't racist. All they were doing was not liking the Jews for taking over their country, bankrupting it etc. etc. 

What made you think people like me would praise Hitler and his Nazis? We're watching in horror a potential Hitler in Trump... and we're trying to "PC" these swipe against an entire people. 

Did you ever hear or see any "leftist" running to defend Muslim terrorists? Did any peacenik and PC police go and say... yea innocents were killed but you all shut up because the murderer is a Muslim. Any lefty ever say that?

---

Chamberlain we've discussed; so were my reading of the Koran... 

Yea, there's nothing wrong or bad or evil in The Bible... it's all good. The Koran on the other hand - if you ignore the good parts in it and focus on the bat**** crazy bits, you'll see how evil it is.

Obviously all Christians ignore the bad bits in the Bibles; All Muslims ignore the good and take on all the bad. 


I've pointed out to you that Europeans have had trillions of dollars taken from them by their very own representative... and your concern are Muslim refugees ruining European economies and stealing from them.


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> so were my reading of the Koran...
> 
> Yea, there's nothing wrong or bad or evil in The Bible... it's all good. The Koran on the other hand - if you ignore the good parts in it and focus on the bat**** crazy bits, you'll see how evil it is.



Did you read the Koran? yes or no?
If you had, I doubt you could honestly write the above


----------



## luutzu (21 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Did you read the Koran? yes or no?
> If you had, I doubt you could honestly write the above




I read selections of it. Does that count?

Have also watched a documentary on it too. 

This is insane qldfrog. While we all understand the anger given the attacks on France... it will not serve the innocents if we go the roads both ours and their "leaders" are taking us.


A country, a civilisation, a people, is not "great" and "civilised" just because "it is" or because its leaders says so.

Maybe a country is great and its people strong because of what it does, why it does it.

And no people could claim to be moral and just if they advocate positions that will harm innocent people. And people are innocent until they commit a crime. You can push that standard to the planning stage, but you cannot push it to the "look and smell like a terrorist" stage.


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## noco (21 July 2016)

This is a new kind of war between Islam and the West.

All wars are generally about world domination....The provokers of war aiming to force their ideology on to others or one wanting to relieve an over populated country or the jealousy of the economy of one country over another.

This current war is unconventional to previous wars and is based on infiltration, fear, intimidation  and the killing of innocent  men, women and children by what ever means the radical side of Islam can conjure up.,,The radical side are virtually the Muslim army, well trained and well disciplined.

The efforts of Islam have been thwarted over the past 1400 years and they will be defeated again.

I believe the West has at long last started to wake up as to how serious the Islamic movement has become but should have taken a more aggressive action 8 or 10 years ago...I hope it is not too late.

Whilst I  believe Islam will be defeated, it will take some years to remove the pockets of cells  planted in many parts of the world.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2016)

noco said:


> This is a new kind of war between Islam and the West.
> 
> All wars are generally about world domination....The provokers of war aiming to force their ideology on to others or one wanting to relieve an over populated country or the jealousy of the economy of one country over another.
> 
> ...





I wouldn't consider that we are "at war" with the whole of Islam, just the radical elements of it.

Muslims have lived peacefully in this country for quite a while, but it does seem that the greater percentage of the population they are the more they feel emboldened to act. As such I would not like to see an increase in the proportion of Muslims in this country.

I don't think that public condemnation of the whole Islamic population eg by Hanson et al does any good at all. It just inflames the situation.

There needs to be good quality intelligence gathering behind the scenes by our security forces, including forming alliances with moderate Muslims (yes, I believe that there are such beings) so that we can continue to nip attacks in the bud and identify the radical elements.

All this chest thumping and flag waving by "patriots" only creates division even though they may say what a lot of people think. The saying " softly softly catchee monkey" is our best approach.


----------



## CanOz (21 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I wouldn't consider that we are "at war" with the whole of Islam, just the radical elements of it.
> 
> Muslims have lived peacefully in this country for quite a while, but it does seem that the greater percentage of the population they are the more they feel emboldened to act. As such I would not like to see an increase in the proportion of Muslims in this country.
> 
> ...




Well said Rumpy

Noco, you'd be a prime Trump voter....


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## noco (21 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I wouldn't consider that we are "at war" with the whole of Islam, just the radical elements of it.
> 
> Muslims have lived peacefully in this country for quite a while, but it does seem that the greater percentage of the population they are the more they feel emboldened to act. As such I would not like to see an increase in the proportion of Muslims in this country.
> 
> ...




I don't know what else you would call it if it is not war...Just a different kind of war

We have are civilians and we have have our Defense Force.

The Muslims have their "moderate " civilians  and they have  their army of radical Muslims doing all the dirty work on the streets where ever they be.

The majority of our non Muslim community also live peacefully.

Hanson wants us all to be as one Australian community and not divided.  The Muslim community do not assimilate unlike other immigrants....
.So why are Muslims so different?...
Do they consider themselves superior to other Australians?..
Why do Muslims want their own Sharia laws introduced?...
Why do Muslims congregate in ghetto like communities as evident in western Sydney?..
Why are women allowed to wear the Burka?..
Why is it that some 80% of Muslims illegal immigrants are still on tax payer welfare?...
Why are Muslims having 6 times more children  than Australian families?
Is it OK to brain wash Muslim kids in Muslims schools that if you are a Christian or an Infidel you should be eliminated if you do not convert to Islam....Doesn't this create hatred for those who are not a Muslim?
What are the moderate Muslims doing to control or convert their radical army?...They are very silent on this matter which makes one think that they condone the actions of their Radical Muslim Army.

As far as I am concerned the Muslims are inflaming their own down fall and you wonder why Pauline Hanson has gathered so much support......And the more she is ostracized by the  left and the dogooders the more traction she will get....Do we have freedom of speech in Australia or not?

We currently have a case in the University of Queensland where white students were not allowed to use computers set aside for Aboriginal students....
Isn't this discrimination and should it be tolerated? 
Does this not create division between black and white?

So what do we want in this great country of ours, a divided community of race and religion or a nation of equal rights and values?


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## smallwolf (21 July 2016)

Ahhh noco.... where to start? 

I am also sure that google will provide answers your questions. eg see

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-23/why-do-muslim-women-wear-a-burka-niqab-or-hijab/5761510

but why does any one group of people live near each other in a foreign country? maybe, if they need help understanding the local customs they can ask people in their native language, because they have troubles with the new language. maybe they cannot afford a house on the northern shores?

one (or a few) bad apple(s) should not spoil the bunch?


----------



## qldfrog (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I wouldn't consider that we are "at war" with the whole of Islam, just the radical elements of it.
> 
> Muslims have lived peacefully in this country for quite a while, but it does seem that the greater percentage of the population they are the more they feel emboldened to act. As such I would not like to see an increase in the proportion of Muslims in this country.
> 
> ...



Overall quite sensible SirRumpole, but one issue is  Islam at its core is a warrior sect designed for nomadic raiding tribes with associated values;Raping, pillaging, domination and slavery
As such for any "true" believer: you, Luutzu, I and any women are worthless.
So the moderately believer in islam equates a fanatic christian nutter;
Never make the implicit error to compare islam to christiany on an even level as you start wrong footed.

Many muslims are as muslim as i am catholic: I enjoy christmas , they feat Ramadan; I have no issue with abortion, the pill or free sex, they drink beer sometimes and can enjoy music;
Do you feel the difference?
And as soon as the % of muslim increases, these loosely religious members of the community have no more choice and are forced back by the vocal minority: women end up in nihab, they can not openly drink, talk to women, etc etc
these muslims previously quite compatible with civilisation (I do not say our civilisation as in my opinion, Saudi arabia is barbary) end up back in the mass.
We should also note that this is a relatively new trend supported by Qatar and Saudia Arabia in less than 50y by setting up school and sending clerics all over the world to spread their backward view of islam: the salafi movement or salafism..
Places like Tunisia, Morroco, even Algeria and Syria used to be quite open, have sizeable christian and jew population living in relative harmony up iuntil the 1970-1980.This is over and if not muslim, you are out or dead.
In my opinion, salafism is the new facism, and as  long as anyone fighting it is assimilated as anti muslim racist, we are doomed.
People are waking up at least in France even if too late and the do gooders in the fairies have learnt the hard way that maybe there is actually a thread and an enemy, and that fascism does not only equates national socialism.
So the left, while finding it hard to swallow discoverer that these lone wolf, like the nice killer were actually surprisingly well prepared and had a network  and was not a converted in the morning, killer in the afternoon.

Hanson is simplistic but yes preventing all muslims entry is a solution: not the good one, but better than absence of response; 
So for this country sake, if we do not want to end up with a Trump in power or the sharia law in 30 y; we 'd better start acting intelligently, have the open minded muslim behing honest a la Wally and do selective targetting/expulsion of clerics , closing of islamic schools altogether , and at the core doing a Sadam solution to Saudia Arabia and its clique.Then genuinely deserving people, muslim or not could be welcome in our mist.
I believe we still have a chance here in Oz, too late for the western part of Europe unless the muslim themselves wake up [and this can only happen if we pull the Saudis out so in nowadays world, if we get alternative energy to the Saudi oil]


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## luutzu (22 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Overall quite sensible SirRumpole, but one issue is  Islam at its core is a warrior sect designed for nomadic raiding tribes with associated values;Raping, pillaging, domination and slavery
> As such for any "true" believer: you, Luutzu, I and any women are worthless.
> So the moderately believer in islam equates a fanatic christian nutter;
> Never make the implicit error to compare islam to christiany on an even level as you start wrong footed.
> ...






People are influenced by a whole bunch of factors - how they were raised, what they learn, friends and mentor, the environment etc. etc.

For Muslims, it is only the Koran. But not any and all part of the Koran - there are good bits in there, I've read those - But Muslims are only influenced by the baddest, evilist parts of the Koran. Full Stop.

Seriously?

How's the Christian or Jewish version? All good stuff, no crazy fairy tales like... like hating homosexuals; wanting the land of Israel to be populated only be Jews so that Rapture and Amargeddon would arrive (killing all of humanity and only a few Jew who convert to Christianity in time).

Yea, that kind of crazy bits in the civilised Christian/Judaeo countries were ignore and long forgotten. Right? 
Have we not been reading the news?

How about the good bits? Like feeding the poor? Not be bankers and money changers? Do onto others they you wished them unto you?

As a society, Christian/Judaeo is all about that?


So maybe, just maybe, there are good people and there are azzholes. In every culture. Maybe.

Every other time when people believe in the superiority of their religion and their skin colour, a whole bunch of people got slaughtered and cleansed from the Earth.

Let's not do that again.


----------



## Tisme (22 July 2016)

Spare a thought for the miserable wretches who are raised/forced/brain washed into Islam.... It's no wonder they want blow themselves up and take a few infinitely smarter people with them for company in the afterlife.


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## noco (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> People are influenced by a whole bunch of factors - how they were raised, what they learn, friends and mentor, the environment etc. etc.
> 
> For Muslims, it is only the Koran. But not any and all part of the Koran - there are good bits in there, I've read those - But Muslims are only influenced by the baddest, evilist parts of the Koran. Full Stop.
> 
> ...




And the Muslim kids are brainwashed with the Koran 5 times each day......If you are a Christian or an Infidel you do not deserve to be in this world and should be eliminated.

So when those kids become teenagers they then become radical Jihadists.


----------



## CanOz (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> And the Muslim kids are brainwashed with the Koran 5 times each day......If you are a Christian or an Infidel you do not deserve to be in this world and should be eliminated.
> 
> So when those kids become teenagers they then become radical Jihadists.




There are like 1.5 billion Muslims in the world noco, are you saying they're all Jihadists?


----------



## luutzu (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> And the Muslim kids are brainwashed with the Koran 5 times each day......If you are a Christian or an Infidel you do not deserve to be in this world and should be eliminated.
> 
> So when those kids become teenagers they then become radical Jihadists.




And you know that how? 

Maybe they pray to their God to for good health, to keep their family safe from... all the love in the world. 

Gotta give it to the warmongers... they know how to do their jobs right.


----------



## smallwolf (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> And the Muslim kids are brainwashed with the Koran 5 times each day......If you are a Christian or an Infidel you do not deserve to be in this world and should be eliminated.
> 
> So when those kids become teenagers they then become radical Jihadists.




and Christians were to pray 3 times day (from the didache)

_8:2 And do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded ....
8:3 Pray this three times each day
_
(source: http://www.paracletepress.com/didache.html)

but that never made it into the canon. I do not think that praying 5 times a day becomes brainwashing. They have a reason and purpose that we might not understand?

(and for the record ... the didache was discovered in 1883. so between the time of the canon and then it would have been a unknown document)


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## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

smallwolf said:


> but that never made it into the canon. I do not think that praying 5 times a day becomes brainwashing. They have a reason and purpose that we might not understand?




The reason is to maintain dedicated slaves to the religion.

Basically all religions are the same, rule by fear and un-questioning obedience.


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## smallwolf (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The reason is to maintain dedicated slaves to the religion.
> 
> Basically all religions are the same, rule by fear and un-questioning obedience.




off topic... but your statement makes all religions into cults.


----------



## basilio (22 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> There are like 1.5 billion Muslims in the world noco, are you saying they're all Jihadists?




It's a worry... I believe we are creating our own monsters. The language of this thread which mirrors the likes of Pauline Hanson and the newly risen Nationalists scares me.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

smallwolf said:


> off topic... but your statement makes all religions into cults.




There are cults in every religion.

Scientology, Davidians, Mormons, Exclusive Bretheren, Jehovas Witnesses etc, they all cherry pick bits out of the Bible that appeal to them and ignore the rest.

No doubt Muslims are the same.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2016)

smallwolf said:


> off topic... but your statement makes all religions into cults.






SirRumpole said:


> There are cults in every religion.
> 
> .




pretty much all religions are cults.

"Cult" is just a term that the larger religion calls the smaller religion to try and denigrate it, but they are all cults.

Cult definition is - "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object"

under that definition all Christian and Islamic faiths are cults, simple as that.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> There are like 1.5 billion Muslims in the world noco, are you saying they're all Jihadists?




It would be like hating on every Irish person because you hate the IRA Killings.

Rather than focus on hating the people, focus on the nationalism and tribalism ideas that cause people to want to kill over flags and borders. 

Yes religion is bad, but not all religious people are, in fact only a minority are. So rather that attack the people, and push them further into the arms of the extremists, debate the ideas, embrace the people, destroy the faith.

Rant over, VC out.


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## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Yes religion is bad, but not all religious people are, in fact only a minority are.




Funny, I seem to have said the same thing in one of our marathons and you appeared to imply than anyone silly enough to believe in religion was corrupt in some way. 

 

Glad you have come around to the view that people can be religious AND be good at the same time. (Not that I am either of course )


----------



## qldfrog (22 July 2016)

smallwolf said:


> off topic... but your statement makes all religions into cults.



They are: a quest toward brain washing and stupid followers; Islam is especially efficient in the last point and unmerciful for the non muslims, that is all;I do not value hardcore christians or jews much highers but except for abortion clinics in the US, they are usually a bit more open and less keen to blow me and my family


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny, I seem to have said the same thing in one of our marathons and you appeared to imply than anyone silly enough to believe in religion was corrupt in some way.
> 
> 
> 
> Glad you have come around to the view that people can be religious AND be good at the same time. (Not that I am either of course )




No you were implying religion was good, because in some cases it caused good people to do good things, that's different to what I am saying, My stance is that most people, religious or not are good people.

My stance hasn't changed, I have never been in favor of attacking religious people, or taking away peoples rights to religious freedom, I have only ever attack the concept of religion and how convincing people that myths are true can lead them to do bad things they otherwise wouldn't.

I have consistently stood up for religious freedom and things such as halal etc, I don't go around attacking the people or their rights to religious freedom.

----------------------------------------

Its a common miss conception that because I hate religion I must therefore want to ban it and that I hate religious people. I love people, I hate the system that is actively trying to hood wink people and preach lies, I don't hate the people who just happen to have been tricked from a young age, in many cases I feel sorry for them, they are victims.

Any way, I have reading to do, Bye.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

Value Collector said:


> Its a common miss conception that because I hate religion I must therefore want to ban it and that I hate religious people. I love people, I hate the system that is actively trying to hood wink people and preach lies, I don't hate the people who just happen to have been tricked from a young age, in many cases I feel sorry for them, they are victims.
> 
> Any way, I have reading to do, Bye.




Indeed they are victims, especially the ones who are afraid of being called apostates and killed if they renounce their religion.

I was sent to Sunday school, but when I decided that I didn't want to go any more the priest didn't come around saying that I was an infidel and could be killed.

That is the current difference between Christianity and Islam. Fear.


----------



## noco (22 July 2016)

smallwolf said:


> Ahhh noco.... where to start?
> 
> I am also sure that google will provide answers your questions. eg see
> 
> ...




I know the answers to my own questions....I want to know how naive people there just don't know...I was hoping to get some sensible conversation on this contentious matter.

If these immigrants had just half a brain they should get off their lazy asses and learn to speak English.....If they don't, how do they expect to get employed......Oh of course....they don't need to get work why the Government sends them welfare cheques every 2 weeks paid for by the Australian tax payers.


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## noco (22 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> There are like 1.5 billion Muslims in the world noco, are you saying they're all Jihadists?




Where did I say they are all Jihadists......Stop romancing with yourself and think more positive...
That was stupid statement to make.


----------



## noco (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> And you know that how?
> 
> Maybe they pray to their God to for good health, to keep their family safe from... all the love in the world.
> 
> Gotta give it to the warmongers... they know how to do their jobs right.




I understand it is printed in black and white in the Koran.


----------



## noco (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> The reason is to maintain dedicated slaves to the religion.
> 
> Basically all religions are the same, rule by fear and un-questioning obedience.




Can anyone tell me why people pray?.....What do they pray for and are their prayers ever answered?

I was once a Christian but after having to mix with so many hypocrites I decided it was not for me......I became agnostic......I abide by the laws of the land ....I treat my family and friends with respect and stay out of trouble so why do I need to get down on  my knees and pray every day....Pray for what?...Praying does not bring one health and happiness.....Your life is what you make it yourself and I don't need any other to put fear in my head from some religious fanatics.

My ex wife was a Catholic who converted to Jehovah Witness...the marriage lasted 5 years because I would not convert....She took my 3 year old son with her who eventually left the religion and came back to live with me when he was 14 years of age....He was a brain washed nervous wreck and it took me some 6 months to cleanse his brain of the fear of God that had been instilled him.

Religions are the main problem causing so much strife around the world.


----------



## luutzu (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> I understand it is printed in black and white in the Koran.




Why not give us a sampling. And while you're at it, give us some samples of what's in the Bible and the Old Testament on similar call for Holy Wars and what to do with nonbelievers.

Don't know why the Left are being accused of "idealism" and head in the sand while they're the only ones who's saying anything about the BS we're being fed so that perpetual wars can go on.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> Can anyone tell me why people pray?.....




Fear of eternal damnation and hope for a place in heaven.



> Religions are the main problem causing so much strife around the world.




Amen to that brother.


----------



## noco (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Fear of eternal damnation and hope for a place in heaven.
> 
> 
> 
> Amen to that brother.




There is no heaven.....When you die you either get buried 6 feet under and there you stay until you rot or you get incinerated and your ashes are placed in a little box in the grounds of the Crematorium.

I do not believe in life after death .....That is some old Grannies tale.


----------



## CanOz (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> Religions are the main problem causing so much strife around the world.




Amen....

Seriously, something like 80% of all regional conflicts are now either religious or tribal.


----------



## noco (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Why not give us a sampling. And while you're at it, give us some samples of what's in the Bible and the Old Testament on similar call for Holy Wars and what to do with nonbelievers.
> 
> Don't know why the Left are being accused of "idealism" and head in the sand while they're the only ones who's saying anything about the BS we're being fed so that perpetual wars can go on.




Here you go Luutzu...All you need to know about the Koran and the hatred they preach about non-Muslims.

It states "Kill them with your bear hands if you have to".

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/quran-hate.aspx

*There are at least two places in the Quran where the violent death of non-Muslims is referred to as Allah's reward for unbelief (2:191, 9:26), as in "such is the reward for unbelievers."  Verse 3:56,  bluntly states that "those who reject faith" will be "punished with terrible agony in this world" (a vow that Muhammad and his companions personally took it upon themselves to fulfill).

The Quran tells Muslims thate Quran tells Muslims that Allah uses them to violently punish others:
Fight them, them by your hands and bring them to disgrace... (9:14)
Verse 4:102 says Allah has prepared a humiliating torment for the disbelievers.  Narrations from Muhammad's life show little distinction between punishment from Allah violence from at the hands of faithful Muslims.

Allah could slay unbelievers himself, but he makes it a test for Muslims to prove their faith:
"If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, by means of others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost" 47:4)
One of the most violent chapters in the Quran charters Muhammad and his followers with making Islam "superior over all religions" (9:33).*


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## luutzu (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> Here you go Luutzu...All you need to know about the Koran and the hatred they preach about non-Muslims.
> 
> It states "Kill them with your bear hands if you have to".
> 
> ...





Deuteronomy 17: 
2 If there be found among  you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or  woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God,  in transgressing his covenant, 
3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun,  or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed  that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.


Luke 19:27:
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

As well as Matthew 10:34:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

https://www.quora.com/Does-Christianity-ever-advocate-or-condone-killing-non-believers


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## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Deuteronomy 17:
> 2 If there be found among  you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or  woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God,  in transgressing his covenant,
> 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun,  or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
> 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
> ...




I don't think people are saying that one religion is better than another, but that all religion has parts that are incompatible with today's democratic secular society.

You seem to be assuming that people are automatically Christian if they are not Muslim. Most people these days are agnostic or atheist, or couldn't be bothered defining themselves as either, so quoting slabs of the Bible really falls on deaf ears, we don't believe it either.


----------



## Ves (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> Here you go Luutzu...All you need to know about the Koran and the hatred they preach about non-Muslims.
> 
> It states "Kill them with your bear hands if you have to".
> 
> ...



Are you deliberately taking these quotes out of context or have you just not read the adjacent verses?


----------



## noco (22 July 2016)

Ves said:


> Are you deliberately taking these quotes out of context or have you just not read the adjacent verses?




I read the whole lot from start to finish and I suggest you do the same.

How can anyone take it out of context...It is there in black and white dozens of times.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> Can anyone tell me why people pray?.....What do they pray for and are their prayers ever answered?
> .




Religions encourage regular prayer and other rituals because it builds the illusion of truth through cognitive ease.


----------



## luutzu (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think people are saying that one religion is better than another, but that all religion has parts that are incompatible with today's democratic secular society.
> 
> You seem to be assuming that people are automatically Christian if they are not Muslim. Most people these days are agnostic or atheist, or couldn't be bothered defining themselves as either, so quoting slabs of the Bible really falls on deaf ears, we don't believe it either.




But people are saying that.

That Islam is evil and brainwash its followers to kill etc. etc. Hence, we must take the war to them; hence we must stop Muslims from entering "our Christian (and Jewish?)" society blah blah.


----------



## CanOz (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think people are saying that one religion is better than another, but that all religion has parts that are incompatible with today's democratic secular society.
> 
> You seem to be assuming that people are automatically Christian if they are not Muslim. *Most people these days are agnostic or atheist,* or couldn't be bothered defining themselves as either, so quoting slabs of the Bible really falls on deaf ears, we don't believe it either.




hmmm, a little less than most actually, 33% roughly...which is unfortunate...ptherwise the non religious could rise up and exterminate the religious of the world....of course that wouldn't work because we'd be left with just the left and the right to fight things out...



> Irreligion, which may include deism, agnosticism, ignosticism, antireligion, atheism, skepticism, ietsism, spiritual but not religious, freethought, antitheism, apatheism, non-belief, pandeism, secular humanism, non-religious theism, pantheism and panentheism, varies in the different countries around the world. In a 2014 poll 33% of the world population were estimated to be atheist or not religious, splitting into 11% atheists and 22% not religious.[2]


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## Ves (22 July 2016)

noco said:


> I read the whole lot from start to finish and I suggest you do the same.



Clearly you haven't.    



noco said:


> How can anyone take it out of context...It is there in black and white dozens of times.



You've probably not understood it because you couldn't be bothered reading it  (which hardly surprises me in this day and age).

Verse 2-190 directly before it.  

"Fight in the way of Allah* those who fight you* but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors."

That's sounds like a call to defend not to aggression.

The whole of Verse 2-191

"And kill them wherever you overtake them *and expel them from wherever they have expelled you*, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. *But if they fight you, then kill them.* Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

Verse 2-192

"And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Verse 2-193

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors."


It's clearly about war.  And more specifically about being invaded.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

> "And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."




Like the beheading of a Muslim historian in Palmyra ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/18/isis-beheads-archaeologist-syria


----------



## bellenuit (22 July 2016)

Ves said:


> Clearly you haven't.
> 
> 
> You've probably not understood it because you couldn't be bothered reading it  (which hardly surprises me in this day and age).
> ...




Yes, Allah is forgiving and merciful to those who submit to the will of Allah. So when Muslims talk about Allah forbidding the killing of innocent people, they never define what innocent means and most Westerners assume it means exactly what we mean it to be. However, innocent can be construed from the Koran/Hadith to exclude apostates, homosexuals and broadly anyone considered infidels. The moderate muslims assume innocents include everyone not actively trying to suppress Islam, and these are the ones that make claims that ISIS are therefore not Muslim. But vast swathes of Muslims, particularly Arab muslims, do not include apostates and homosexuals in particular under those labelled innocent, so have no qualms about putting them to death. That is why homosexuality and apostasy is a crime punishable by death in so many ME countries. 

Do you consider homosexuals and apostates innocent and if you do, can you explain why so many ME countries legalise their killing?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> But people are saying that.
> 
> That Islam is evil and brainwash its followers to kill etc. etc. Hence, we must take the war to them; hence we must stop Muslims from entering "our Christian (and Jewish?)" society blah blah.




That's because some Muslims are actually carrying out the nasty bits of their doctrine, whereas the Christian religion is divided into old and New Testaments and the people who follow the New Testament are generally ignoring the nasty bits in the Old Testament.

Unfortunately, the whole Koran is the word of the prophet and therefore must be obeyed. It's harder to cherry pick.


----------



## CanOz (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> That's because some Muslims are actually carrying out the nasty bits of their doctrine, whereas the Christian religion is divided into _old and New Testaments _and the people who follow the New Testament are generally ignoring the nasty bits in the Old Testament.
> 
> Unfortunately, the whole Koran is the word of the prophet and therefore must be obeyed. It's harder to cherry pick.





I heard recently that there were calls to update the Koran, a sort of new testament, to bring it in line with contemporary moderate thinking...


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> I heard recently that there were calls to update the Koran, a sort of new testament, to bring it in line with contemporary moderate thinking...




That would be good, but who would do it ? There is no Muslim Pope to co ordinate that sort of thing, and each Muslim country seems to have it's own brand of clerics so the chances of getting agreement would seem to be slim.


----------



## luutzu (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> That's because some Muslims are actually carrying out the nasty bits of their doctrine, whereas the Christian religion is divided into old and New Testaments and the people who follow the New Testament are generally ignoring the nasty bits in the Old Testament.
> 
> Unfortunately, the whole Koran is the word of the prophet and therefore must be obeyed. It's harder to cherry pick.




They're carrying it out because, for some reason, they feel they're at war with the West.

Sure, there are Muslims who are not at war and are just crazy... but are there no terrorist and murderers doing what they think the Bible tells them to do?

There are cases of terrorists blowing up abortion clinics; murdering doctors who perform abortion - and claim they did it for their God in the Bible. 

Should we then say that Christianity is evil?

Heck, the "greatest" democracy in the world actually have lawmakers pushing, and in many States succeeding, the teaching of the Bible and its Genesis as an alternative view on human evolution; There are laws banning abortion, making it almost impossible to operate a clinic (not near schools) - leading to the unsafe and death of many women...

None of these is to show that Christians are all nuts. But just the same, we cannot then say that Muslims are all nuts because some Muslims are nuts. 

And it's not PC and all that nonsense. It's the reality.

I live near Muslims - ground zero here right? There are beer shops where Muslim frequent; there are Churches and Catholic schools; there are pork and other non-Halal food being sold around here. 

If Islam and Muslims are as crazy and "Sharia" as we're to believe, they'd be out there burning or shutting down all these unholy stuff. That and carrying out terrorism on a daily basis too.

---

Anyway, we should seriously think long and hard about this. Innocent lives are at stake.

Australia is lieutenant to the biggest, baddest, most trigger happy powers in the history of the world. We're part of a coalition with enough nukes to blow the world a few times over; we have resources to end freaking world poverty... 

and yet believe we are in danger of being taken over by "a bunch of idiots in a few pick-ups". 

How do we hear this and not fall over laughing to death? 


We get upset, and rightly so, when innocents are killed (in Western countries)... yet, we just shrugged when just as many or more innocent Arabs and Muslims are slaughtered almost every single day all over the ME. 

Is it the mark of a civilised society when it define and accept "worthy" and "unworthy" victims?


----------



## noco (22 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> I heard recently that there were calls to update the Koran, a sort of new testament, to bring it in line with contemporary moderate thinking...




I can't see that happening after 1400 years.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> We get upset, and rightly so, when innocents are killed (in Western countries)... yet, we just shrugged when just as many or more innocent Arabs and Muslims are slaughtered almost every single day all over the ME.




I'll bet that there are more Muslims being killed by Muslims than there are innocent Muslims being killed by drones.

Look at the Iran-Iraq war, more than a million lives lost. Muslim v Muslim.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/23/iran-iraq-war-anniversary


----------



## luutzu (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> That would be good, but who would do it ? There is no Muslim Pope to co ordinate that sort of thing, and each Muslim country seems to have it's own brand of clerics so the chances of getting agreement would seem to be slim.




There were calls for democracy, secularism all over the Middle East decades ago - there are still calls for it today as we speak. 

Guess whose warlords didn't think it's such a good idea? Guess who thought it stands in the way of Imperial Grand Strategy and decided to support dictators and religious nuts instead?


----------



## luutzu (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I'll bet that there are more Muslims being killed by Muslims than there are innocent Muslims being killed by drones.
> 
> Look at the Iran-Iraq war, more than a million lives lost. Muslim v Muslim.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/23/iran-iraq-war-anniversary




Really?

The West didn't kind of invade Iraq and wreck the place?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Really?
> 
> The West didn't kind of invade Iraq and wreck the place?




Maybe because of this...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCoverage/story?id=2761722&page=1


----------



## luutzu (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I'll bet that there are more Muslims being killed by Muslims than there are innocent Muslims being killed by drones.
> 
> Look at the Iran-Iraq war, more than a million lives lost. Muslim v Muslim.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/23/iran-iraq-war-anniversary




Oh OK, the Iraq/Iran conflict.

Guess who was behind Saddam during that one? Guess who supplies him with training, weapons and WMD?

Why the US? Because the evil Iranian clerics thought to overthrow the US-backed Shah of Iran. Why was the Shah in power? Some crazy democratically elected Iranian president thought it's only fair Iran get more oil revenues from its oil.

Saddam was only pushed back when he invaded Kuwait... and he did it thinking the US gave him permission to. Why did he think that? A US envoy met with him and he read that the US would not oppose such invasion.


----------



## luutzu (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe because of this...
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCoverage/story?id=2761722&page=1




That list was crimes before the year 2000. Why wait until 2003?

In one of his Q&A, Chomsky was saying, and you can check to verify, that when Saddam was captured, the "Iraqi" court only charge him with crimes where the US have no hands in - after Kuwait? Can't remember. But he was not charge with crimes committed all his entire reign.


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## DB008 (22 July 2016)

You have large numbers of people living in ****-hole deserts, where the temperature is higher than their IQ's and believe in this man-made fantasy, in-breeding doesn't help either (ie, cousins -> cousins at a minimum)...


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## bellenuit (22 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> I heard recently that there were calls to update the Koran, a sort of new testament, to bring it in line with contemporary moderate thinking...




*Islam cannot be modernised say greatest Arabic poet.*

http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...-modernised-says-worlds-greatest-arabic-poet/

_Being raised a Muslim himself and having one of the greatest understandings of the language of the Quran, Adonis said: “You can not reform a religion. If they are reformed, [the original meaning] is separated from it. Therefore, modern Muslims and a modern Islam is already impossible. If there is no separation between religion and state, there will be no democracy especially without equality for women. Then we will keep a theocratic system. So it will end.”

Laying down a heavy critique of the Islamic world, he added: “Arabs have no more creative force. Islam does not contribute to intellectual life, it suggests no discussion. It is no longer thought. It produces no thinking, no art, no science, no vision that could change the world. This repetition is the sign of its end. The Arabs will continue to exist, but they will not make the world better.”_

*A Saudi Morals Enforcer Called for a More Liberal Islam. Then the Death Threats Began.*

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/11/w...ia-islam-wahhabism-religious-police.html?_r=0

This article is also worth reading for a better understanding of Wahhabism


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## DB008 (22 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Islam cannot be modernised say greatest Arabic poet.




Islam needs to have a reformation, like the Catholic Church did. This will never happen. Islam will continue to be backward, forever.


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## luutzu (22 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> *Islam cannot be modernised say greatest Arabic poet.*
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...-modernised-says-worlds-greatest-arabic-poet/
> 
> ...




Yea, Islam is so backward it somehow, for some reason, permit its scholars to translate the works of Greek philosophers and scientists; books that made possible Western Renaissance (re-birth).

I guess they were only translating for fun - never add anything or ever put those knowledge to practice.

It is so vile and barbaric that during the height of its power, it did not commit genocide and force conversion on its colonies. Other religion, however, ... yeahhh... wash that one away.

So unscientific its medicine men conduct surgeries and purposefully set out to cure human diseases - instead of whipping themselves and wait for God in the afterlife.


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## luutzu (22 July 2016)

DB008 said:


> Islam needs to have a reformation, like the Catholic Church did. This will never happen. Islam will continue to be backward, forever.




Luther reform the entire Christian/Catholic faith did he? He didn't start his own sect?

Stop taking credit for the secular, democratic and civil liberties that others fought for - often against the Church's wishes.


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## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Yea, Islam is so backward it somehow, for some reason, permit its scholars to translate the works of Greek philosophers and scientists; books that made possible Western Renaissance (re-birth).
> 
> .




But what have they done recently ?


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## qldfrog (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> But what have they done recently ?



Indeed, and bring us me a bit of proof of that translation or the so called age of enlightment when they were occupying Spain at their latest high...
, next you will tell me they invented zero, etc a big nice convenient urban legend when you dig a bit more.
Christianity is not clean either but the inquisition is not that bad compared to nowadays Saudi's sharia (the so called civilised one):https://uk.news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabia-juvenile-prisoner-faces-230227718.html#Veqvbya
THIS is salafism, not 100y or a thousand year ago but now, and this is the version of islam a majority of muslim wants:http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4730825.ece for example
Truth hurts but so do the bombings.


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## luutzu (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> But what have they done recently ?




Hard to be creative much when your country has been colonised and looted for the past two to three hundred years... and still going.


Let's not demean an entire people shall we. 

Empires do rise and fall. Best to study why they fall lest our hubris and arrogance get us there.

Empires don't decay then fall because its people start thinking they're no longer worthy and superior. They tend to decay then collapse soon after they reach the peak of expansion - having too many wars, going broke, get taken over.

May serve us well to have a healthy respect for others, especially "the enemy". 

A rag tag group of terrorists spent maybe $1M and in 15 years, cause an alliance of history's largest armies to spend some $10 trillion abroad creating enemies and quagmires everywhere; at home countless billions to secure every place imaginable; further impoverishing and dividing its people.

Without think tanks or super computers or satellites and smart bombs, they managed to turn every country forgotten luggage a potential weapon literally stopping an entire few block radius each time... yea, historians may not look back on these plunders as anything but the work of idiots at the helm.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Hard to be creative much when your country has been colonised and looted for the past two to three hundred years... and still going.
> 
> 
> Let's not demean an entire people shall we.
> ...




There are more Muslim countries in the world than Iraq and Syria. Saudi Arabia, one of the richest countries in the world could invest billions in research and education and yet their people are poor slaves, only the Sheiks are rich. 

Same with the other oil rich Gulf States. They are corrupt at the top, don't care about the population and use religion to keep them enslaved. Still think Muslims States are superior ?


----------



## luutzu (22 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> There are more Muslim countries in the world than Iraq and Syria. Saudi Arabia, one of the richest countries in the world could invest billions in research and education and yet their people are poor slaves, only the Sheiks are rich.
> 
> Same with the other oil rich Gulf States. They are corrupt at the top, don't care about the population and use religion to keep them enslaved. Still think Muslims States are superior ?




First, I don't think any state or people are superior to any other ones. We, they, all have our moments in the Sun.

Second, I think what makes a country, a people, civilised and moral and stuff worth bragging about is what we do, not what we say of ourselves.

Third, what wealth, height of civility and democracy and liberties a country have could, and did, get lost. e.g. Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.


To your point about Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States... No one but the clerics would want to live under any theocracy. So we're lucky, I know I am.

Having said that, certain Gulf states - Qatar from memory - has a much higher GDP per capita than most Western countries - so the average pleb are pretty well off there. No freedom while they're in their country, but I'd imagine they won't be so strict once they're in the lands of the free.

For Saudi and all those Gulf states being run by religious nuts and dictators... all of them are so because the U.S and its allies make it so. It's just what you do when you're the only superpower left standing after the world goes to heck: you set up bases all around the world; you take what is most valuable; give what is less valuable to your lieutenants; and what you prize but can't get you fenced in.

So as much as we like to believe that Arabs (and hence Islam) are backward and regressive religious nuts... the people living under those nuts do not like it and has been, are, fighting back.

It's not about world conquest - that comes later. Now it's mainly for national independence.

How do you organise and unite against imperial powers? Communism is dead and the Bear is in hibernation; there are no other power interested in helping you... so you use the oldest trick in the book and get religious, really really religious.

That's at the upper echelon of power. At the lower runk, at the common terrorist level, they're just people wanting a job to feed their family... and it doesn't take much looking around to see that yea, maybe the country is all screwed because of foreigners and I don't like it.

----

So we can talk down  to the Muslims and praise ourselves all we like... the reality, the history, of the situation is that a world imperial power is trying to crush rebellions in its far-flung colonies. 

It is quite simple. Why is that so hard to believe?

So we, the people, can either use our brain and think a little; or we can just buy into the BS about clashes of civilisation - Good versus evil and watch as our gov't crush the barbarians, and some time the barbarians pushes back.

Back in the good old days of empire, we could literally annihilate an entire people and nobody could stop us or even blink. That and there are plenty of goodies like land and continents to get from it.

Nowadays... being more civilised; with our own plebs having a say in how it's not cool to commit genocide; that and there are more losses than material gains from imperial ventures - it might be more humane to call this thing off lest a rising power sit, watch, build its own outposts and we'd be so broke and over-extended we either retreat, give concessions or bring life on earth to an end.

Imagine the Greeks, or the Romans, or the Spanards, or the Chinese, or the Indians back in their heydays... I don't think any of its kings and peasants could ever imagine being dictated to by barbarians, so dirt poor and living in slumps.


----------



## Ves (22 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Yea, Islam is so backward it somehow, for some reason, permit its scholars to translate the works of Greek philosophers and scientists; books that made possible Western Renaissance (re-birth).



What are you even implying?

You do realize Western scholars are still translating them too.

Don't you?

And you do know a lot of the SURVIVING source texts are in Arabic in the first place, don't you?


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## bellenuit (22 July 2016)

Interesting statistic for those counting translations:

"The total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Ma’moun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year” World Press.

https://www.altalang.com/beyond-words/2009/08/10/a-note-on-arabic-literacy-and-translation/

It would be very unwise to assume that because the Arab world was the pinnacle of learning one time that it continues to this day. Islamic scholarship came to a rather abrupt halt when Islam came under the influence of Imam Hamid al-Ghazali in the 11th century who preached mathematics was the work of the devil. Neil de Grasse Tyson explains it here:


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## Wysiwyg (23 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Same with the other oil rich Gulf States. They are corrupt at the top, don't care about the population and use religion to keep them enslaved.



A sometimes wise and oft times imaginative author wrote "control is the state religion". Religion exists via the obey or else threat. Once you're in, either through parental guidance or the need for something to believe in, the exit is psychologically barred in Christianity and both psychologically and physically barred in Islam. Fear has always been the most effective tool in maintaining control over the subservient.


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## Tink (23 July 2016)

Is that like Political Correctness imposed on the people by the state?

The CONTROL factor, and their social engineering.

_Never have Voltaire's words been so pertinent””a grand censorship is being engineered through political correctness._


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## Tisme (23 July 2016)

Ves said:


> What are you even implying?
> 
> You do realize Western scholars are still translating them too.
> 
> ...




lookup up "tongue in cheek"


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## Ves (23 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> lookup up "tongue in cheek"



My bad. Missed it.


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## Wysiwyg (23 July 2016)

Tink said:


> Is that like Political Correctness imposed on the people by the state?
> 
> The CONTROL factor, and their social engineering.
> 
> _Never have Voltaire's words been so pertinent—a grand censorship is being engineered through political correctness._



Is there evidence of this in Australia? Our company has introduced more females into the workplace and the females swear (which I thought was impolite for a male to do around a female) in general conversation. This surprises me but I think they do it to show they are not offended by swearing.


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## MrBurns (24 July 2016)

Suicide bombings in Kabul leave 80 dead

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-24/kabul-attack-islamic-state-claims-suicide-bombing/7655470


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## qldfrog (25 July 2016)

But all is good it seems, the 9 deads in Munich are just victim from a mad bullied teen.
.So all is good and pig can fly;;;oops lambs can fly, let's not be insensitive to our brother in blood muslims fanatic  friends...
Seriously....
But will only fool the ones who want to be fooled: Luutzu, Basilio: all is good and i am just a racist guy; you know have the proof straight from the news...
Sleep well.What else could you expect from a goivernm,ent wholet itself be invaded by a million plus a year.Germans will not swallow that one.


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## noco (25 July 2016)

MrBurns said:


> Suicide bombings in Kabul leave 80 dead
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-24/kabul-attack-islamic-state-claims-suicide-bombing/7655470




Another Muslim terrorist attack and we need more Muslim here in Australia like a hole in the head.


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## luutzu (25 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> But all is good it seems, the 9 deads in Munich are just victim from a mad bullied teen.
> .So all is good and pig can fly;;;oops lambs can fly, let's not be insensitive to our brother in blood muslims fanatic  friends...
> Seriously....
> But will only fool the ones who want to be fooled: Luutzu, Basilio: all is good and i am just a racist guy; you know have the proof straight from the news...
> Sleep well.What else could you expect from a goivernm,ent wholet itself be invaded by a million plus a year.Germans will not swallow that one.




How can you say stuff like that? No one is excusing or justifying terrorism; or see terrorist as "brother in blood".

Maybe we are "denying the evil of Islam" because we are serious about not wanting innocent people killed or harm - innocents both in the ME and also in the West.

Think through what you're saying. It's messed up.


----------



## qldfrog (25 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> How can you say stuff like that? No one is excusing or justifying terrorism; or see terrorist as "brother in blood".
> 
> Maybe we are "denying the evil of Islam" because we are serious about not wanting innocent people killed or harm - innocents both in the ME and also in the West.
> 
> Think through what you're saying. It's messed up.



it is messed up when officials (and some people even here) deny the obvious just because it does not fit their belief irreespective of facts;
they tried the same talk in Nice, he killed 30% of muslims so ..(as if it was a proof of anything among these ravid lunatics), was deranged, under mental health treatment, then you learn he had accomplices, had prepared this for months.

Not all murders by Muslims are terrorism sure, but Wurburg, Munich and Nice (people have stopped pretending that last one was just an accident...) are deeply linked to a jihadist religious view.

By denying this, and with people facing facts, not sitting in an armchair in Australia but living it in Europe, that position and denial actually inflames the debate and Europe will end up in a black /white (I do not mean race here) civil war; with many innocents paying [moderate muslims included].
But too many people profit/have profited for years from that situation : both left and right wings for this to stop;

Just another murder Islam has nothing to do with it:
http://www.bild.de/regional/stuttga...-mit-reutlingen-reutlingen-46972048.bild.html

They have an ironic  term in France now:
Pasdamalgam-> from "Pas d'amalgame" ->no amalgam/link; 
people are so sick of the brainwashing that there is no trust whatsoever left with either media or government releases.


----------



## qldfrog (25 July 2016)

MrBurns said:


> Suicide bombings in Kabul leave 80 dead
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-24/kabul-attack-islamic-state-claims-suicide-bombing/7655470




RIP, sadly the islamo facism is everywhere, does not spare their own cobelievers and are even in Brazil it seems...


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## CanOz (25 July 2016)

99.993% of all Muslims are not Jihadists. More Muslims are killed each year by 'terrorist' organisations than other people....keep things in perspective.


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## luutzu (25 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> it is messed up when officials (and some people even here) deny the obvious just because it does not fit their belief irreespective of facts;
> they tried the same talk in Nice, he killed 30% of muslims so ..(as if it was a proof of anything among these ravid lunatics), was deranged, under mental health treatment, then you learn he had accomplices, had prepared this for months.
> 
> Not all murders by Muslims are terrorism sure, but Wurburg, Munich and Nice (people have stopped pretending that last one was just an accident...) are deeply linked to a jihadist religious view.
> ...




No body is denying that there are terrorists; no one is denying that there are psychotic people either.

But that is very different from "denying" that Islam and Muslims are either terrorist or psychotic murderers because of their religion and culture.

Just a couple days ago, a US airstrike kill an estimated 147 people in Syria. It was estimated that at least 80 of those killed were civilians. 

What should we classify the killing of those civilians on? An accident? Pilot error? Terrorism? War?

You know what denial is?

It's when our government thought to send troops and fighter jets over to other people's land; overthrow its gov't; kill anything that moves... then we somehow thought that that's fine. That those being invaded ought to just run and hide and kiss our feet then hand over their land, their resources.

What denial is, is the fact that our allies have drones flying over other people's skies and fire missiles at any target we feel looks funny. Then we, the civilised West, shrugged and say that that's not terrorism, that's just keeping the peace.

What denial is is when the enemies we're fighting against fight back and we think that that's just weird, why are they fighting back? What did we do? We did nothing and they kill our innocent people - it must be their religion. Something is wrong with Islam and Muslims for not liking foreigners killing their people and taking their land.


We're upset that innocent people are kill and maim - and we should. But then to advocate ideas that will definitely main and kill other innocent people. Are we suppose to feel better because those innocents we kill are Muslims instead of White and Christian?

Yes, stop the boats; stop Muslim immigration; stop (Islamic) refugees... But keep up the tough work and go occupy the ME and drop more bombs like we have not drop any before.

--------

It may be lost on you that some of the pillars that held up our country and make it strong are being knock down and chipped at. And those doing the major demolition work are not necessarily Muslims or Islamic terrorist.

Who pays for all the corporate bailouts? Who pays for corporate welfare? Who benefits? The same people?

Who pays taxes but have to tighten their belts because their money can no longer afford healthcare or affordable education for their kids? 

Who pays for those jet fuel? Those bullets and missiles? And who makes money from it? Muslims?

Why is a Frenchman or an Asian can call Australia home? Because there are no French criminals? No Asian drug dealers? Maybe because Australian law judge a person on what they do, not who they look like.


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## SirRumpole (25 July 2016)

> We're upset that innocent people are kill and maim - and we should. But then to advocate ideas that will definitely main and kill other innocent people. Are we suppose to feel better because those innocents we kill are Muslims instead of White and Christian?




A lot of innocent people got killed in WW2, in London, Dresden and Hiroshima among others.

If there is a 'war' on terrorism, then innocent people on both sides will die, it's an unfortunate fact. 

Do the ends justify the means ? Obviously our leaders think so otherwise they would not be doing drone attacks.


----------



## bellenuit (25 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> 99.993% of all Muslims are not Jihadists. More Muslims are killed each year by 'terrorist' organisations than other people....keep things in perspective.




That figure is a fabrication in that it only accounts for those who are known active Jihadists (identified groups such as ISIS and Boko Harem). It would not have included any of the so-called lone wolf terrorists who recently attacked civilians in European cities as none were regarded as active Jihadists (hence they were still at large and at best under surveillance). 

The more important figure is the % of muslims who support violent Jihad in some form or other as supporters are also likely to become active depending on circumstance. That figure is in the 20%+ range.

If you look at broader issues that don't come under the banner of violent Jihad, but what we in the West would regard as extreme and intolerable; imposing the death sentence on apostates and homosexuals under Sharia law; support among muslims is 50% plus and up to 90% plus in some countries. Why is a homosexual beheaded under Saudi Sharia law any less "Jihadic" then the same person thrown off a high building in Syria by ISIS.

*Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world*

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Thats is the perspective we should have when we discuss the topic Islam is Inherently Evil. The fact that so many people are conditioned to accept the denial of basic freedoms to their fellow citizens purely because they were raised muslim and taught that is OK. Accepting state sponsored murder makes them extremists even though many of them would see themselves as just peaceful muslims obeying the will of Allah.


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## luutzu (25 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> That figure is a fabrication in that it only accounts for those who are known active Jihadists (identified groups such as ISIS and Boko Harem). It would not have included any of the so-called lone wolf terrorists who recently attacked civilians in European cities as none were regarded as active Jihadists (hence they were still at large and at best under surveillance).
> 
> The more important figure is the % of muslims who support violent Jihad in some form or other as supporters are also likely to become active depending on circumstance. That figure is in the 20%+ range.
> 
> ...




How does Christianity view homosexual? Fair dinkum? Gays are equal? 

How does Christianity view women? Equal to men? 

But at least Christians don't kill homosexuals, don't subjugate women. Right?

Wrong.

The only reason Christianity and hardcore Christians don't do it is because secular, democratic laws do not permit it. If Western democracies were to go hardcore Christian, it will happen. It has before, not very long ago. 

Heck, still happen today: Gays can't get married; women aren't pay the same for the same work... and not too long ago, women can't vote because they'll vote whatever their husband or father vote anyway; women belong to the father and if married, owned by her husband.

But sure, Christianity has progressed since a few decades ago... no it hasn't. It got forced there because rational, secular people won't put up with it.

Muslims and Arabs in the ME wanted democratic, secular form of gov't. But that would go against our Imperial Grand Strategy so it was overthrown by foreign powers. When the progressive Arabs and Muslim were hanged or otherwise silenced, with dictators and tyrants armed and put in their thrones... what do you expect to happen?


----------



## luutzu (25 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> A lot of innocent people got killed in WW2, in London, Dresden and Hiroshima among others.
> 
> If there is a 'war' on terrorism, then innocent people on both sides will die, it's an unfortunate fact.
> 
> Do the ends justify the means ? Obviously our leaders think so otherwise they would not be doing drone attacks.




Despite the nice speeches, us plebs' security are never a priority. It serves money and power better if we are insecure, poor and dependent.


----------



## Tisme (25 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> The only reason Christianity and hardcore Christians don't do it is because secular, democratic laws do not permit it.




Hand in glove arrangement, the Christians invented and implemented secular rule of law.... others would tell you otherwise, but we don't rewrite history around here.


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## qldfrog (25 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> 99.993% of all Muslims are not Jihadists. More Muslims are killed each year by 'terrorist' organisations than other people....keep things in perspective.



Hard to admit CanOz but http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
The nazis killed a lot of white people some with blue eyes, many pure arayans, for a fanatic, killing other muslims is not an issue, there is (as always) a koran rule justifying colateral damage.
The longuer the denial, the worst it will be for both non muslim and the majority let's say 60/70 % of muslims we could cohabit with.


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## qldfrog (25 July 2016)

oops bellenuit had sent the link already, look how brainwashed these racists like qldfrog are..
Funnuy how people do accept lessons on shares from people with experience but deny the right for any people with previous experience of that plague to try to guide this country, my country and it means something to me, out of the same mess....
I now can understand the frustration of the jews in the 1930's when trying to convince unsuccessfully Europe of the danger ahead


----------



## luutzu (25 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> Hand in glove arrangement, the Christians invented and implemented secular rule of law.... others would tell you otherwise, but we don't rewrite history around here.




Yea, like the Lords and Barons at Runnymede writing the Magna Carta for all free men.


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## qldfrog (25 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Muslims and Arabs in the ME wanted democratic, secular form of gov't.



When they are allowed to vote, they vote islamist governments for a non secular rule..my God (any) you are so so far from the facts.Egypt Turkey for the latest


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## luutzu (25 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> oops bellenuit had sent the link already, look how brainwashed these racists like qldfrog are..
> Funnuy how people do accept lessons on shares from people with experience but deny the right for any people with previous experience of that plague to try to guide this country, my country and it means something to me, out of the same mess....
> I now can understand the frustration of the jews in the 1930's when trying to convince unsuccessfully Europe of the danger ahead




Did I read your last line about the Jews right? It can't be.

What did the Jews of Europe tried unsuccessfully to warn Europe again?

Did the Jews tell Europe and the Fuhrer that Jews are greedy, dirty, rotten scoundrels and should be returned back to Nazi Germany for some sort of solution?


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## luutzu (25 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> When they are allowed to vote, they vote islamist governments for a non secular rule..my God (any) you are so so far from the facts.Egypt Turkey for the latest




First, if it's democratic then people can vote however they like. You can't just accept the results only if it goes your way.

Egypt's democratically-elected gov't was overthrown... guess who was behind that? Oh yes, the president wasn't nice, so better get the Egyptian a military strongman instead. 

Turkey's current gov't isn't democratic... he's turning the country towards an Islamic theocracy - shutting down the press etc. etc.

I guess there's always Hamas - dam Palestinians not knowing what's good for them and dare vote for a gov't that aren't in the pocket of Israel.


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## qldfrog (25 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> First, if it's democratic then people can vote however they like. You can't just accept the results only if it goes your way.



yes indeed  and they want islam rules and sharia law yet read again what youjust  wrote about their desire of democracy and secular government; 
But life is too short, I leave you to your comfortable delusions.Keep playing the Chamberlain and the nice guy, you will have a nice sticker from the left and may be invited to a multicultural fair.Make sure not to bend too much is all I can say as you are getting done a big way and think of your kids sometimes, especially if you have a daughter.


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## luutzu (25 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> yes indeed  and they want islam rules and sharia law yet read again what youjust  wrote about their desire of democracy and secular government;
> But life is too short, I leave you to your comfortable delusions.Keep playing the Chamberlain and the nice guy, you will have a nice sticker from the left and may be invited to a multicultural fair.Make sure not to bend too much is all I can say as you are getting done a big way and think of your kids sometimes, especially if you have a daughter.




How many Western political leaders attend Church and pay lip service to Jesus and the Bible? Practically all of them. You seriously think they follow the Bible's ethical teachings? 

How long did it take for any Western/Christian democracy to separate itself from Christianity in any serious manner? Even the US, with its proscribed secularism couldn't separate itself from Christianity.

What these all mean is that political leaders, secular or whatnot, have to pay lip service to the dominant religion of people they want to rule over. If that mean having to pray to this or that God, believe that gay people or Christians, or Muslim or whatever is convenient are good/bad... they'd do it.


Chamberlain we've dealt with before. Keep civilising enough savages around the world and sooner or later the empire where the sun never set couldn't do much against a rising power that it must "appease".


Are all these discussions to keep our family and innocent people safe; or are we here to beat up Muslims and trash Islam in a pizzing contest?

What happen the last a country thought to keep itself pure, cleanse it from Jews and undesirables? 6 million innocent people got slaughtered right?

What happen 13 years ago when most of us believe our leaders that our existence is at risk from a Mushroom cloud and we must get them before they get us? Some 2 million Iraqis dead; God know how many hundreds of thousands other Arabs and Muslim in neighbouring countries are also dead; how many millions lost their home, displaced; how many more unborn will die early death from cancer, from destruction of their infrastructure and ways of life?

How many of our own people killed? How many more countless of our poor and working families are broken, drove into early grave due to cutbacks in social welfare to fund military actions? 

And what are we doing? What are we being told is the solution? More bombs abroad; more tough talks; more spending on security at home; more belt tightening; more finger pointing at innocent people.

Most Muslims in the ME couldn't do much about their situation - what with warlords and dictators and terrorists on one side and imperial overlords on the other. We here at least could protest and not buy into the BS. At least take advantage of that.


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## Tisme (25 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> 99.993% of all Muslims are not Jihadists. More Muslims are killed each year by 'terrorist' organisations than other people....keep things in perspective.




They are two different variables.

1)99.993% is a guess and has no supporting proofs
2) Culling benign Muslims would be seen as strengthening the herd and the grip of fear within the herd.


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## Tisme (25 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> How many Western political leaders attend Church and pay lip service to Jesus and the Bible? Practically all of them. You seriously think they follow the Bible's ethical teachings?
> 
> .




Considering most of them ar Roman Catholics these days, put in the seats by the Roman Catholic church, I would say that lip service is fairly distant from the servitude of Papal bulls.


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## wayneL (26 July 2016)

Some of you are missing the point by focussing on terrorism.

We in the west have developed a society with a particular legal and social order. I think we agree that by and large, we like our society, it works reasonably well for us. In particular, women have won the right to be viewed as equals and to behave and dress as they see fit without being subjugated by a patriarchal and misogynistic male establishment.

We have our common and statutory law which for the most part, benefits all as a whole.

Like it or not, our cultural traditions are based on Judeo/Christian value systems.

Terrorism is only one small aspect, the evil of Islam, as far as we are concerned, is its cultural and religious incongruity. Once a critical mass of Muslims infiltrates an area/city/country, things change **and from our perspective** not in a good way.

So you clowns trying to defend Islam in the name of tolerance can go hopping to Hell as far as I'm concerned, you are vandals, the enemy within. I for one am interested in defending our culture.


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## Tisme (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Like it or not, our cultural traditions are based on Judeo/Christian value systems.
> 
> .




London swings like a pendulum do:


Afghanistan:

http://glamourdaze.com/2015/08/fashion-freedom-in-pre-war-afghanistan.html

Iran:

http://www.boredpanda.com/iranian-women-fashion-1970-before-islamic-revolution-iran/


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## CanOz (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Some of you are missing the point by focussing on terrorism.
> 
> We in the west have developed a society with a particular legal and social order. I think we agree that by and large, we like our society, it works reasonably well for us. In particular, women have won the right to be viewed as equals and to behave and dress as they see fit without being subjugated by a patriarchal and misogynistic male establishment.
> 
> ...




I agree with this for the most part.

I'm certainly not in favor of Sharia Law or any other law other than what is passed by our lawmakers. But other cultures are free to do as they wish under the guidance of the constitution. 

I still do not believe that Islam in inherently evil, but the media would like you to believe that.


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## luutzu (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Some of you are missing the point by focussing on terrorism.
> 
> We in the west have developed a society with a particular legal and social order. I think we agree that by and large, we like our society, it works reasonably well for us. In particular, women have won the right to be viewed as equals and to behave and dress as they see fit without being subjugated by a patriarchal and misogynistic male establishment.
> 
> ...




Focusing on Terrorism is missing the point? We should focus on what makes Australia White, Christian and Jewish?

btw, since when did Western Christian countries welcome Jews? More than a few of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany were turned back right?

Since when did Christian European countries welcome each other anyway? The Christian kingdoms were at each other's throat long before the Third Reich came along wanting to put an end to it - in the same way some of our enlightened people wants to do: Pure blood and superior cultural heritage.

All culture and people have things they should be proud of, they also have things they blame on their old folks and crazy uncles for... As that first Jewish Christian guy said, let those without sin cast the first stone.

Now back to the less important issue of terrorism... it's all Islam's fault - that is why not all Muslim in Western countries commit terrorism.


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## Wysiwyg (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Some of you are missing the point by focussing on terrorism.
> 
> We in the west have developed a society with a particular legal and social order. I think we agree that by and large, we like our society, it works reasonably well for us. In particular, women have won the right to be viewed as equals and to behave and dress as they see fit without being subjugated by a patriarchal and misogynistic male establishment.
> 
> ...



In present day Australian lives that is the simple majority belief. We love the freedom this society has and reject any group (i.e. political parties) that threatens our "Australian way of life". People tell me that if immigrants don't like the Australian laws and "Australian way of life" then put them on the next plane back to whence they came.


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## CanOz (26 July 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> In present day Australian lives that is the simple majority belief. We love the freedom this society has and reject any group (i.e. political parties) that threatens our "Australian way of life". People tell me that if immigrants don't like the Australian laws and "Australian way of life" then put them on the next plane back to whence they came.




The problem with that, is that it is unconstitutional.


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## wayneL (26 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Focusing on Terrorism is missing the point? We should focus on what makes Australia White, Christian and Jewish?
> 
> btw, since when did Western Christian countries welcome Jews? More than a few of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany were turned back right?
> 
> ...




Where did I say white luu? Mate you can give yourself an uppercut for putting words in my mouth...and another one for completely missing the point, or if you are intentionally twisting what I said, you can go straight to the hell people like you are intent on creating.


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## Wysiwyg (26 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> The problem with that, is that it is unconstitutional.



Yes in reality that doesn't happen so tolerance is the best we do. The British example of immigration with an ulterior motive by one particular religious affiliation is something to learn from.


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## luutzu (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Where did I say white luu? Mate you can give yourself an uppercut for putting words in my mouth...and another one for completely missing the point, or if you are intentionally twisting what I said, you can go straight to the hell people like you are intent on creating.




What colour were you referring to with "Judeo/Christian" value system?

You're not going to tell me you mean all colours since there are Asian, Indian, African, Arabs who are also Christian/Catholics.

But alright, by Judeo/Christian you mean the "good" and civilised way of life. 

It is good and civilised to blame and potential harm innocent people just because they look or pray like other criminals and psychopaths? 

Stop being dramatic Sifu... doesn't take much to see what make a country a hell of a place to live - for everyone. This can be Nazi Germany, Jewish Israel, Islamic Iran, Saudi Arabia, Communist China/VN/Cambodia...

What does all those countries have in common? Keeping their country pure against a certain group or two; putting certain ideology above the rights of minorities and undesirables.

Are we more civilised because we like Jews and hate Muslims? Because we love Capitalist instead of taking their property or putting bags around their head?

Maybe not hating all Muslim is not about being idealistic and unpatriotic; but a practical and honest way of preserving these "way of life" and noble culture we're all hyping about.


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## SirRumpole (26 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Are we more civilised because we like Jews and hate Muslims? Because we love Capitalist instead of taking their property or putting bags around their head?




It's not uncivilised to point out the flaws in religious ideology which has been done many times in relation to both Christianity and Islam.

They are both mind fuddling and ancient ideas which may have been good for law and order in their time but have been superceded by science and secularism.

That's not to say that science and secularism are flawless, neither of these have much to say about morality, but religion has to change with the times and not continue to punish people for being homosexual, marrying out of their religion, being raped, being a woman, wanting an education or not wanting to be kept in an intellectual straight jacket by theology.


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## luutzu (26 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not uncivilised to point out the flaws in religious ideology which has been done many times in relation to both Christianity and Islam.
> 
> They are both mind fuddling and ancient ideas which may have been good for law and order in their time but have been superceded by science and secularism.
> 
> That's not to say that science and secularism are flawless, neither of these have much to say about morality, but religion has to change with the times and not continue to punish people for being homosexual, marrying out of their religion, being raped, being a woman, wanting an education or not wanting to be kept in an intellectual straight jacket by theology.




As our friend VC have said many times, advocating the rights of Muslims to pray to their Allah does not mean we condone whatever violence it may preach; it's not to say that Islam is beyond criticism; it never said that all Muslims are good and great.

Fair enough to point to the flaws and backwardness of Islam... but it's dishonest to do that and at the same time turn blind eyes to our own religion. 

If we're honest about it, Christianity or Judaism (and all other religion) hasn't at all upgraded its text to be more enlightened. There's still the same crazy stuff that's been there since God spoke to a few of them chosen ME guys... and if we want to generalise the crazy Muslim clerics and Islamic fundamentalist, let's not ignore the crazy Christian and Jewish clerics and its fundamentalist - they're all just as crazy and barbaric.


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## SirRumpole (26 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> As our friend VC have said many times, advocating the rights of Muslims to pray to their Allah does not mean we condone whatever violence it may preach; it's not to say that Islam is beyond criticism; it never said that all Muslims are good and great.
> 
> Fair enough to point to the flaws and backwardness of Islam... but it's dishonest to do that and at the same time turn blind eyes to our own religion.
> 
> If we're honest about it, Christianity or Judaism (and all other religion) hasn't at all upgraded its text to be more enlightened. There's still the same crazy stuff that's been there since God spoke to a few of them chosen ME guys... and if we want to generalise the crazy Muslim clerics and Islamic fundamentalist, let's not ignore the crazy Christian and Jewish clerics and its fundamentalist - they're all just as crazy and barbaric.




You say "our own" religion, but a lot of people these days don't identify with any religion. Our forefathers may have been Christian , but that doesn't mean we have to be, that's one difference that we have to Islam. 

As I said before, Christianity has two parts, the Old Testament with all the violent stuff and the New Testament which significantly modifies the Old, but is by no means faultless in itself.

Anyway, it's about time we did away with all religion, it's an intellectual prison as I said before as well.


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## CanOz (26 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You say "our own" religion, but a lot of people these days don't identify with any religion. Our forefathers may have been Christian , but that doesn't mean we have to be, that's one difference that we have to Islam.
> 
> As I said before, Christianity has two parts, the Old Testament with all the violent stuff and the New Testament which significantly modifies the Old, but is by no means faultless in itself.
> 
> _Anyway, it's about time we did away with all religion, it's an intellectual prison as I said before as well._




Perhaps we should change the name of the thread to "Is all religion inherently evil??"


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## SirRumpole (26 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> Perhaps we should change the name of the thread to "Is all religion inherently evil??"




That's been discussed ad nauseum in these threads

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11201

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27938


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## bellenuit (26 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> But other cultures are free to do as they wish under the guidance of the constitution




That doesn't make it right or acceptable or not evil. A constitution based on Sharia law or even based on Islamic principles is inherently evil because it simply supports misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women and violates the liberty of everyone by prohibiting freedom of religion and freedom of expression. Implicit in your arguments is that the people living in those societies want those restrictions, but that assumes their opinion has been formed in the absence of indoctrination and intimidation, which is patently not the case. Do you think those Afghan women shown in Western dress in the 50s in another post on this thread want to be clothed from head to foot in a blue bag. They have been forced to dress that way and those who try to do otherwise get a digger load of rocks dumped on them. Do you think if asked whether they support that barbaric mode of dress they would say anything other than Yes, when they face the same fate for just expressing an opinion contrary to what the morality police dictate.

If the West doesn't speak out and oppose those evils, who will. Instead we have the regressive left acting as apologists for the evils of those societies. Saying that it is OK because it is part of their culture or that their religion allows it is a cop out. 

What exactly can your definition of evil be, if you think Islam is not evil.


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## CanOz (26 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> That doesn't make it right or acceptable or not evil. A constitution based on Sharia law or even based on Islamic principles is inherently evil because it simply supports misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women and violates the liberty of everyone by prohibiting freedom of religion and freedom of expression. Implicit in your arguments is that the people living in those societies want those restrictions, but that assumes their opinion has been formed in the absence of indoctrination and intimidation, which is patently not the case. Do you think those Afghan women shown in Western dress in the 50s in another post on this thread want to be clothed from head to foot in a blue bag. They have been forced to dress that way and those who try to do otherwise get a digger load of rocks dumped on them. Do you think if asked whether they support that barbaric mode of dress they would say anything other than Yes, when they face the same fate for just expressing an opinion contrary to what the morality police dictate.
> 
> If the West doesn't speak out and oppose those evils, who will. Instead we have the regressive left acting as apologists for the evils of those societies. Saying that it is OK because it is part of their culture or that their religion allows it is a cop out.
> 
> What exactly can your definition of evil be, if you think Islam is not evil.




Nah, thats not what i meant. I meant that all religions of Australians are free to do as they wish under the law of the Australian Constitution. Pretty sure that doesn't include misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women etc.etc.


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## wayneL (26 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> What colour were you referring to with "Judeo/Christian" value system?
> 
> You're not going to tell me you mean all colours since there are Asian, Indian, African, Arabs who are also Christian/Catholics.
> 
> ...




I really really hate it when people twist something into a racial argument. It's not. It's about culture and colour or race is incidental... our culture luutz.

Don't be so emotionally invested in your argument that you have to invent rubbish to justify it, because that's what you're doing, twisting words and arguments so they become unrecognisable to their original meaning and intention.

It's mendacious crap and you know it.


----------



## luutzu (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> I really really hate it when people twist something into a racial argument. It's not. It's about culture and colour or race is incidental... our culture luutz.
> 
> Don't be so emotionally invested in your argument that you have to invent rubbish to justify it, because that's what you're doing, twisting words and arguments so they become unrecognisable to their original meaning and intention.
> 
> It's mendacious crap and you know it.




I don't know what "mendacious" is so I don't know what you're on about.

I'm not a Muslim, not an Arab; don't have any friend who are either of those; and I don't think my arguments are illogical... so I don't see where emotion play any part in it.

It's pretty hard to not be considered racist when you say you don't like a person because of their religion and culture.

But true, you may not be a racist, but you do say racist stuff. Fair enough?


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## qldfrog (26 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> Nah, thats not what i meant. I meant that all religions of Australians are free to do as they wish under the law of the Australian Constitution. Pretty sure that doesn't include misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women etc.etc.




And as long people assume Islam is like any other religion (aka the ones they know/belog) and forget Islam is ALSO a code of laws ruling your everyday life, we will miss the point;
If you are a muslim believer then you will need to include misogyny, suppression of homosexuals and women etc.etc.
And this is the dimension so many here are unable to even comprehend;
Life is too short ...._You can bring a donkey to water but you can not force him to drink_ is a saying we have in my native culture...


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## wayneL (26 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> I don't know what "mendacious" is so I don't know what you're on about.
> 
> I'm not a Muslim, not an Arab; don't have any friend who are either of those; and I don't think my arguments are illogical... so I don't see where emotion play any part in it.
> 
> ...




You are absolutely, comprehensively wrong... And totally despicable for playing the race card.

I have nothing against Islam, which is a religion, not a race of people, which makes racism a moot point as race is only mentioned by you, not me. I couldn't actually give two sh1ts what race people are, nor do I believe do the vast majority of Australians.

I actually find people of different races and culture interesting and love the interaction. Missus was born and raised in Kenya and also has great respect for the peoples she knew there.

Probably my best ever friend is a secularized Indian Muslim, separated only by our mutual itchy feet syndrome.

So Grasshopper, you can stick your disingenuous accusations of racism where the sun don't shine.

However, if folks want to practice Islam, as is their right it should not impact negatively on the those around them, it should not impinge on any one elses right to practice their religion, non religion and/or culture.

This is the crux of the problem which you unintelligently refuse to accept because of your poisonous extreme leftist ideology.

Libertarianism still has hierarchical considerations, the practice of one's liberty cannot be at the expense if someone elses.

This is what you are, bizarrely and bewilderingly proposing and supporting.


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## Tisme (26 July 2016)

CanOz said:


> Perhaps we should change the name of the thread to "Is all religion inherently evil??"




That just admits that you think Islam is a religion and not a complete social system of which the God part is only a bit player. It has politics, legal, worship, literacy, health, etc integrated into it, so I don't belief it qualifies for constitution recognition due to an impossible separation of powers.


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## luutzu (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> You are absolutely, comprehensively wrong... And totally despicable for playing the race card.
> 
> I have nothing against Islam, which is a religion, not a race of people, which makes racism a moot point as race is only mentioned by you, not me. I couldn't actually give two sh1ts what race people are, nor do I believe do the vast majority of Australians.
> 
> ...





Whatever you call not liking Islam and Muslims because it's Islam and Muslim, it is still prejudice. You can't say I like Christians and Jews, like their culture and values; and I don't particularly like Islam and Muslims... you can't say that then say you're not prejudicial. 

So alright, your beliefs aren't racist, they are still bigoted aren't they Sifu?

That is not to say you're a racist or a bigot, just your opinions on Muslims and Islam happen to be bigoted. 

I don't think there is such a thing as a "secularized Indian Muslim". You mean a Muslim who does not practice Islam too much right? Like a Catholic with many wives, or a Catholic who uses contraception and get a divorce if things don't work out.

Maybe a less strict Muslim is still a Muslim... maybe it is possible that Muslims are generally moderate and goes to Mosque and pray to Allah for the same reason most people of other faith also go do their prayers for.

You can criticise and reject Islam all you want, no one will tell you you can't do it - not me. But you can't start criticism by defining Islam as an evil, barbaric cult teaching its followers to blow themselves up and murdering innocent people; and any part of Islam that doesn't teach that is not really Islam. 

That's not what criticism is, not in an academic/intellectual sense. Leave the "just point out the bad bits" criticism to the street talk Sifu.



So let's criticise Islam... are there parts in its various books that are backward and regressive; are there practises it preaches that the world and Muslims could do without; are Muslim Koran-basher who are just insane; are there fairy tales and fancy talks of miracles and other nonsense.... Sure there are.

Is that what Islam is all about? Are all Muslim crazy lunatics hell bend on murdering infidels?

Are there no crazy, fairytale nonsense in the Torah or the Bible? Are all Jewish and Christian people sanely? Are there no violent and barbaric teaching and practises in the Judaeo/Christian value system?

Gotta be fair and balanced when we criticise. And pointing out the bad and nasty bits in others but completely ignoring our own, or completely dismissive of the good and wise in other's religion and culture... that's not criticism; that's just kicking dirt in their face.


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## Macquack (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Terrorism is only one small aspect, the evil of Islam, as far as we are concerned, is its cultural and religious incongruity. Once a critical mass of Muslims infiltrates an area/city/country, things change **and from our perspective** not in a good way.
> 
> So you clowns trying to defend Islam in the name of tolerance can go hopping to Hell as far as I'm concerned, you are vandals, the enemy within. I for one am interested in defending our culture.






wayneL said:


> I have nothing against Islam




Could have fooled me.


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## Macquack (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> This is the crux of the problem which you unintelligently refuse to accept because of your *poisonous extreme leftist ideology*.




There you go again Wayne. If you don't like luutzu's opinion, he must be a looney lefty.


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## wayneL (26 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Whatever you call not liking Islam and Muslims because it's Islam and Muslim, it is still prejudice. You can't say I like Christians and Jews, like their culture and values; and I don't particularly like Islam and Muslims... you can't say that then say you're not prejudicial.
> 
> So alright, your beliefs aren't racist, they are still bigoted aren't they Sifu?
> 
> ...




No they are not bigoted, they are realist.

If I choose not to associate with pedophiles...

If I choose not to be friends with adulterers or swingers...

If I choose not to have sex with homosexuals..

If I choose not to bow to Mecca five times a day...

Or give burnt offerings to a Bhudda statue..

Or have an orgy with the local coven...

Or hang a dreamcatcher on my rear vision mirror...

Does that make me bigoted?

Of course not. It means I have made cultural choices, racism only in the minds of the politically indoctrinated like you luu and unthinking tribalistic tossers like the Quacker.

By all means lets be tolerant of difference, in fact, _viva la difference_, but tolerant of intolerance?

Intolerable.


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## luutzu (26 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> No they are not bigoted, they are realist.
> 
> If I choose not to associate with pedophiles...
> 
> ...






When people stop you from abusing their rights to practise their religion, it does not mean they're oppressing your right. It just mean that they do not want their legal rights being oppressed.

Sure, practice whatever religion or sexual orientation you like; don't hang around paedophile - in fact, kick their teeth in; criticise Islam, hate terrorist and turn them in when you know one... But none of these mean you ought to beat up all Muslim and want Islam ban.

Are all Muslims terrorist? Is Islam an evil cult that will turn any listener into terrorist and murderer?

If Muslims are all terrorist, if Islam is evil... it is very easy to prove: All the hundreds of thousand of Muslim in Australia, the millions in Indonesia - all of them would be out there blowing things up and killing people. And no, the fact that there's an attack now and then by Muslim does not mean Muslim are all terrorist in waiting - there are other factors and influence beside their religion.


People can't go around hating a Muslim because he's a devout Muslim; can't say "all Muslim are terrorist"; Islam is evil... can't do that and expect people to not call it for what it is.

By all mean, hate terrorist - Who the heck doesn't? But hate Muslim because a terrorist happen to also be a Muslim? 

Anyway...


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## qldfrog (26 July 2016)

Anyway:
the religion of peace in action again as in RIP:http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/two-knifeman-take-several-hostages-in-normandy-church-in-france-police-20160726-gqecui.html
until the next one, but remember: 
"Just another act from a/two mental patients, do not react:the terrorists would win, etc etc" there is no IS link, they got their knifes/glock on the internet.
What have I forgotten in the list of crappy excuses Europeans are supposed to swallow in the past weeks? 
Ah yes, they just wanted to emulate a mass murder, they drank beer, are french born (statistically probable, we will see) so can not be linked to Islam.
A shame I am not a good christian I would offer my throat and become a saint; but did not work well for the ME/African christians, or buddists in afghanistan, pakistan, indonesia or malaysia


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## Gringotts Bank (26 July 2016)

I don't know how Islam works, but I would have assumed that the Imams and Muftis have significant say over how their flock behaves, including the radicals.

Why are they not on mainstream media telling radicals- "*This must stop!*".... ?  They seem very silent.  Wouldn't a directive to all their followers be a wise move?

What am I missing here?


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## bellenuit (27 July 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I don't know how Islam works, but I would have assumed that the Imams and Muftis have significant say over how their flock behaves, including the radicals.
> 
> Why are they not on mainstream media telling radicals- "*This must stop!*".... ?  They seem very silent.  Wouldn't a directive to all their followers be a wise move?
> 
> What am I missing here?




Because ISIS and its followers are being true to the Koran, so there is little the Imams and Muftis can say. Moderate muslims are the ones deviating from true Islam. What ISIS does is very similar to what is ordained by law in Saudi Arabia. No acceptance of other religions, death to homosexuals and apostates. Women are just chattels.

*ISIS Is Islam*

https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress.com/2015/04/01/isis-is-islam/


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## Gringotts Bank (27 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Because ISIS and its followers are being true to the Koran, so there is little the Imams and Muftis can say. Moderate muslims are the ones deviating from true Islam. What ISIS does is very similar to what is ordained by law in Saudi Arabia. No acceptance of other religions, death to homosexuals and apostates. Women are just chattels.




ok, that makes sense.  And I guess if the moderates speak up, they will get excommunicated or worse.  

That article is an eye opener.


----------



## Tink (27 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Anyway:
> the religion of peace in action again as in RIP:http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/two-knifeman-take-several-hostages-in-normandy-church-in-france-police-20160726-gqecui.html
> until the next one, but remember:
> "Just another act from a/two mental patients, do not react:the terrorists would win, etc etc" there is no IS link, they got their knifes/glock on the internet.
> ...




Sorry to see what is happening in your native country, qldfrog.

We are not long back from Europe, and I must have hugged every nun I saw.

We met a lovely French priest in Rome, seemed to always bump into him, and I told him to come to Australia - Melbourne.


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I don't know how Islam works, but I would have assumed that the Imams and Muftis have significant say over how their flock behaves, including the radicals.
> 
> Why are they not on mainstream media telling radicals- "*This must stop!*".... ?  They seem very silent.  Wouldn't a directive to all their followers be a wise move?
> 
> What am I missing here?



GB you are missing a reading of a Koran, the understanding that any infidel is subhuman in the muslim view, and that these terrorists are all martyrs for the good cause for a muslim salafist.
And then read http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/about the real interpretation of a moderate muslim...
Then make your mind, you may not like what knowledge brings


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2016)

Tink said:


> Sorry to see what is happening in your native country, qldfrog..



Has been coming for a long time : too many left wingers there denying the obvious (even now) to be worth sacrificing your life when it was already too late,10% of population at least (we forget the illegal immigrants in these figures) now, and many second generation french born not counted as muslim yet of muslim heritage/"values"
More will come until it ends up in Sharia or bloodbath.Sad


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

So can we go and give all Muslims a final solution now? Or should we tell our leaders to keep bombing more terrorist in the ME - because apparently that's not what they have been doing.

Or maybe we haven't been killing enough terrorist and should now get serious about it.


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> So can we go and give all Muslims a final solution now? Or should we tell our leaders to keep bombing more terrorist in the ME - because apparently that's not what they have been doing.
> 
> Or maybe we haven't been killing enough terrorist and should now get serious about it.




Again, you comprehensively miss the point.


----------



## Tink (27 July 2016)

Well I can't speak for Muslims, Luutzu, as our country has always been Christian.
I have no idea about their rules and regulations - do you?
We grew up Christian, whether you were a believer or not, our laws are set that way.

Off topic, I find it interesting the history that has been displaced in this country, as I have pointed out on a few things.
Why have they omitted where they came from?

I agree with what Wayne said, that no one should be forced to accept anything, which is what is happening in Victoria.

One thing that does annoy me is the -- oh but Christians..................oh but Christians nothing.
When is the ABC going to be fair in their broadcasting?


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

wayneL said:


> Again, you comprehensively miss the point.




What is the point?

And again, don't take this to be that I or people on the "left" are excusing terrorism. All we are trying to do, and by we I mean both left and right, are trying to keep innocent people safe, right?

What's the "realistic" solution to hopefully achieve that?

Ban Muslims; build a wall?; Go out and beat up any Muslim we see on our streets? Call all the Imams and Clerics in and torture them? Teach that Christianity and Judaism are awesome while Islam is evil?

Why don't the realist among us table their solution and we see what that will look like?

For example...

Let's be like Saudi Arabia... let, instead of forbidding anything deemed "non-Islamic" by the high council; we set up our own council and ban anything Islamic.

Let's be like Israel and root out all Arab and Muslim from the land; let's build walls, draft all non-Muslim Australian and train them to take out any "dogs" and "animals" that dare leave their cages.


Go study history. See how great and civilised countries decay and fall. 

But ey, if it make us feel good and feel safe calling names and beating up innocent people who look and sound like a terrorist... go ahead.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (27 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> So can we go and give all Muslims a final solution now? Or should we tell our leaders to keep bombing more terrorist in the ME - because apparently that's not what they have been doing.
> 
> Or maybe we haven't been killing enough terrorist and should now get serious about it.




No, just a separation of peoples with vastly different lifestyles/values/beliefs.

A split national identity is like a schizophrenic personailty, with different aspects jarring and clashing.  Multiculturalism is pathological.  A _*taste *_of other cultures is great, but most of the population needs a firm rootedness in a stable, reliable and familiar cultural identity.

One day in the future, national identities won't matter.  One day, there will be no nations or borders - all false divisions will vanish.  But if politicians are too PC/idealistic/futuristic, they create problems.  A dose of realism is needed.


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

Tink said:


> Well I can't speak for Muslims, Luutzu, as our country has always been Christian.
> I have no idea about their rules and regulations - do you?
> We grew up Christian, whether you were a believer or not, our laws are set that way.
> 
> ...




As I said before, a person's rights are *not* oppressed when laws and lefty nutjobs tell them they cannot abuse and oppress other people's rights and religion.

I know a lot of Christians, and they'd be horrified to hear that other Christians think it is a God-given right for Christians to go and beat up on Islam or ban other religion. 

People are generally decent, or at least neutral. I don't think people lean towards evil and barbarism. So if Islam is as vile and as crazy and murderous as some of us believe, you seriously think it would have 1.5 billion followers? 

And if those 1.5 billion follow an evil religion preaching nasty stuff, why aren't all or most or a large portion of them doing those nasty stuff? 

Why are terrorists tend to be from countries the West is at war with? Or terrorism occur in countries that's at war?

Maybe there are other factors involve than just Islam and religion.


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> No, just a separation of peoples with vastly different lifestyles/values/beliefs.
> 
> A split national identity is like a schizophrenic personailty, with different aspects jarring and clashing.  Multiculturalism is pathological.  A _*taste *_of other cultures is great, but most of the population needs a firm rootedness in a stable, reliable and familiar cultural identity.
> 
> One day in the future, national identities won't matter.  One day, there will be no nations or borders.  But if you force that, as PC politicians do, you create problems.




People make their own choices whether to be friend with people of certain characteristics - race, culture, tastes, looks, size. No politician or parent can force a person who they decides to hang around with.

So laws like Australia that simply does not permit discrimination against people base on race, religion, disability... that's been working pretty well for all of us. 

No culture are what they used to be. Only extinct culture and frozen people are ever the same as their parents or ancestors. We all adapt and grow, and with it, our society and culture will also change.


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> So if Islam is as vile and as crazy and murderous as some of us believe, you seriously think it would have 1.5 billion followers?



It could nearly be funny: if it was not a murderous convert by the sword religion, it would never have reached 1.5 billions "followers"...whose ancestors have all been wiped out and cruxified/slain while the Luutzu of the time were trying to recite buddist peace mantra and christian pardon.
But now, it goes faster than riding from town to town and travel/migration is allowed speeding the process


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> We all adapt and grow, and with it, our society and culture will also change.



True once shariah is set, no more bombing, no more issues, all salafism joy and harmony; and then no change whatsoever for the next millenium.
We could start saving on DV and feminism campaign, LGT referendum.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (27 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> People make their own choices whether to be friend with people of certain characteristics - race, culture, tastes, looks, size. No politician or parent can force a person who they decides to hang around with.
> 
> So laws like Australia that simply does not permit discrimination against people base on race, religion, disability... that's been working pretty well for all of us.
> 
> No culture are what they used to be. Only extinct culture and frozen people are ever the same as their parents or ancestors. We all adapt and grow, and with it, our society and culture will also change.




Yes that's all sounds fair.  But should we allow criminal bikie gangs to be part of our culture so that people can freely associate with them, or is it ok to legislate against their existence?

I guess I'm confused about what it is modern Australian Muslims actually believe.  I've only ever met one (a family, actually), and I was too afraid to ask.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 July 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I guess I'm confused about what it is modern Australian Muslims actually believe.  I've only ever met one (a family, actually), and I was too afraid to ask.




I think if you dig deep enough you may find it's a cultural habit for a lot of religious people. It's something they have always done, a social gathering that makes them feel included, the actual belief system may be of secondary importance, more spoken than acted on.

Except for the terrorists that is.


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> True once shariah is set, no more bombing, no more issues, all salafism joy and harmony; and then no change whatsoever for the next millenium.
> We could start saving on DV and feminism campaign, LGT referendum.




Yea, Muslims will rule the world. How? With what army? With what Navy? With what Airforce?

How are they going to convert infidels towards Islam? With swords? Bringing swords to a nuke fight?

We in the West have the biggest, most advanced military in the entire history of the world. And we're thinking, seriously believing, that Muslims will take over us.

But keep liberating the ME, pick fights with Russia and fight terrorism all over the world and everywhere at home... keep that up and watch what will happen.


----------



## bellenuit (27 July 2016)

Why has Islam thrived? One answer direct from the horses mouth. The killing of apostates. Combine the killing of apostates with a larger than average birth rate and a belief that your are born a Muslim (hence rejection is by definition apostasy) and you have the ingredients for a thriving religion.

*Yusuf al-Qaradawi: Killing Of Apostates Is Essential For Islam To Survive*



*APOSTASY: “WHOEVER CHANGES HIS (ISLAMIC) RELIGION, KILL HIM”*

http://sheikyermami.com/apostasy-whoever-changes-his-islamic-religion-kill-him/


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Yea, Muslims will rule the world. How? With what army? With what Navy? With what Airforce?
> 
> How are they going to convert infidels towards Islam? With swords? Bringing swords to a nuke fight?
> 
> ...



You are blind  beyond redemption, but yes ME ME ME ME that is the only reason of the evil of this world .
Anyway, won't bother you anymore in your lunacy: I have been here for month lining up facts, actual lived experience and arguments to no avail. Bye .


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Why has Islam thrived? One answer direct from the horses mouth. The killing of apostates. Combine the killing of apostates with a larger than average birth rate and a belief that your are born a Muslim (hence rejection is by definition apostasy) and you have the ingredients for a thriving religion.
> 
> *Yusuf al-Qaradawi: Killing Of Apostates Is Essential For Islam To Survive*
> 
> ...





I think the word you're looking for is "spawn", not thrive.

The good thing about YouTube and the internet is that you cannot find videos and writings of any crazy "Christian" or religious nuts beside Muslim nuts.


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> You are blind  beyond redemption, but yes ME ME ME ME that is the only reason of the evil of this world .
> Anyway, won't bother you anymore in your lunacy: I have been here for month lining up facts, actual lived experience and arguments to no avail. Bye .




For France it might also be the entire North West of Africa too, not just the ME. What? They don't teach French school kids about French colonialism in Africa? Ohh... that was so long ago, it's not like it's happening right now.

Sorry I am "blinded" for the need to either bash or ban or beat up people who look and sound like a terrorist in skin colour and clothing - just in case;

It has nothing to do with reality or fact; has nothing to do with history showing what happen when a majority thought to blame an entire group of people for the country's ill. 

Nazi Germany, the Jews, the gays, the disabled;
Pol Pot Cambodia against Capitalist and intellectual;
Maoist China great leap forward and cultural revolution;
Bush, Blair, Howard and Coalition against Saddam and WMD, then nation-building, then democracy, then war against our way of life, and now ISIS...

And that's me skipping a lot of continent and century.

You know how many tens of millions of innocent people die in just those four war against some group of enemy trying to destroy "our way of life"?

But it's different this time, right? We are not at all wrong about Islam and their vile barbarism trying to destroy us, kill our children, rape our daughter and wives.

wtf. Stop talking about apartheid and potential genocide as though it's a real solution.


----------



## bellenuit (27 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> You are blind  beyond redemption, but yes ME ME ME ME that is the only reason of the evil of this world .
> Anyway, won't bother you anymore in your lunacy: I have been here for month lining up facts, actual lived experience and arguments to no avail. Bye .




Yes, I did the same months ago. Skipping over the posts knowing they are devoid of worthwhile argument requires allocating more effort that is deserved, but one has no choice when ASF doesn't have an ignore button.


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, I did the same months ago. Skipping over the posts knowing they are devoid of worthwhile argument requires allocating more effort that is deserved, but one has no choice when ASF doesn't have an ignore button.




The internet doesn't have an ignore button and some of us seem to be doing pretty well ignoring stuff.


----------



## bellenuit (27 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> *APOSTASY: “WHOEVER CHANGES HIS (ISLAMIC) RELIGION, KILL HIM”*
> 
> http://sheikyermami.com/apostasy-whoever-changes-his-islamic-religion-kill-him/




I should have added regarding this second part that the comments condoning the killing of apostates are not being made in that article by just some cleric that supports the Muslim Brotherhood, but by Sheikh Ali Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt. He is Egypt’s superior authority in charge of issuing official fatwas (Islamic religious rulings).


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## luutzu (27 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> I should have added regarding this second part that the comments condoning the killing of apostates are not being made in that article by just some cleric that supports the Muslim Brotherhood, but by Sheikh Ali Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt. He is Egypt’s superior authority in charge of issuing official fatwas (Islamic religious rulings).




And these quotes from the Koran are false? A disguise?

“There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)

“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8)

A funeral procession once passed in front of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and he stood up out of respect. When he was told the person in the coffin was Jewish and not Muslim, he said: “Was it not a living (soul)?” Bukhari:V2N399

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once saw the corpse of a woman who had been killed in a military action, and he disapproved of it and forbade the killing of women and children.Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, a companion of the Prophet Muhammad and his successor as head of the Muslim community, advised one of his military commanders: “Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place.” Al-Muwatta:V21N9-10

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “God has forbidden you to be undutiful to your mothers, to withhold (what you should give) or demand (what you do not deserve), or to bury your daughters alive (a pre-Islamic practice).” Bukhari:8:6


The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “The learned are heirs of the prophets, and the prophets do not leave any inheritance in the form of (monetary wealth), but they do leave knowledge as their legacy. A person who acquires knowledge, acquires his full share (of this legacy).” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:1388


The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “The best (Jihad) is (to speak) word of justice to an oppressive ruler.” Sunan of Abu-Dawood:2040

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “A believing man should not hate a believing woman. If he dislikes one of her characteristics, he will be pleased with another.” Muslim:705

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once told his wife: “Avoid Cruelty and injustice..and guard yourselves against miserliness, for this has ruined nations who lived before you.” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:203

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once said to one of his companions: “Son, if you are able, keep your heart..free from malice tward anyone.” Al-Tirmidhi:59


----------



## Tisme (27 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> And these quotes from the Koran are false? A disguise?
> 
> “There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)
> 
> ...




I'd bet you could cherry pick counter memes to all those deceptions.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'd bet you could cherry pick counter memes to all those deceptions.




Maybe we should have a national project of writing all the Muslim pacifist quotes from the Quran on signs and erecting them in Western Sydney.


----------



## bellenuit (27 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'd bet you could cherry pick counter memes to all those deceptions.




Actually, Tisme, you don't have to cheery pick counter memes. Muhammad has done the cherry picking for you.

The Quran has two distinct sets of memes (they use the word Surah, or chapters). There are two parts to the Quran; the earlier one supposedly written in Mecca and the more recent written in Medina. They are quite different in context.

The (earlier/older) Mecca Quran was all about tolerance, tranquility, spirituality, acceptance, and inner cleansing through submission to the word of Allah. Muhammad's intention was to preach his revelations and gain converts, mostly from among Christians and Jews. However, his newer revelations incorporated in the Medina Quran were more violent and had the Jews as the primary focus of this violence. This Medina Quran also incorporated much of the moral blessings of violence and caravan raiding taken from the Arab tribes who thrived on these ventures. The article below described the historical context pertaining to the change in style.

Many of the Surah from the more violent Medina Quran contradicted the more peaceful Surah of the earlier Mecca Quran. So how is that to be resolved. *Muhammad ruled that if a later Surah contradicted a previous Surah, then the most recent and newer Surah was the true word of Allah*. So cherry picking is not necessary. The peaceful Surah are overruled by the violent Surah when they contradict.

So regarding quoting from the Quran, the article goes on to say:_ If one is quoting from the Mecca Quran and there is a contradicting Surah in the Medina Quran, then the quote is no longer valid. Where much of the rituals come from the Mecca Quran along with the calls for tolerance and peace, the more exclusionary and violence condoning Surah in the Medina Quran negate the peaceful intention of the Surah from the earlier Mecca writings. This is why one must be careful when accepting as fact anybody’s quoting of the Surah of the Quran._

https://beyondthecusp.wordpress.com/2007/08/10/which-quran-mecca-or-medina/


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Actually, Tisme, you don't have to cheery pick counter memes. Muhammad has done the cherry picking for you.
> 
> The Quran has two distinct sets of memes (they use the word Surah, or chapters). There are two parts to the Quran; the earlier one supposedly written in Mecca and the more recent written in Medina. They are quite different in context.
> 
> ...



In its initial more pacifist phase, Mohammed did not get that many followers and few were converting so he switched to a more 'proactiv'e aka sword based version  gifting the initial followers with raiding loots/slaves etc;
It was a great tactical move and this is what made Islam so successfull in term of territory gains.

But who needs to know the truth or facts when people only want to see what they want to see.
It was not an easy path to go from a tolerant young leftie (gullible) anti racist (assimilated as it is now as any crirticism of the muslim movement)  to one where knowledge allowed me to reconcile what I could see everyday to my belief.
Many here do not seem to have this courage.We still have communists in the world praising Staline so they do not need to feel lonely.
The debate should be how far the "moderate muslims" go, ensuring safety for the shia followers and moderate, no nihad or any symbol of the radicals and preventing salafists to ever set foot on the lands they want to destroy, cutting their funding and the links with Qatar, SA, etc.


----------



## Wysiwyg (27 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'd bet you could cherry pick counter memes to all those deceptions.



An "inherently" good thread. (rolls eyes in a circular fashion and gets dizzy)


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Actually, Tisme, you don't have to cheery pick counter memes. Muhammad has done the cherry picking for you.
> 
> The Quran has two distinct sets of memes (they use the word Surah, or chapters). There are two parts to the Quran; the earlier one supposedly written in Mecca and the more recent written in Medina. They are quite different in context.
> 
> ...




Pick the bad, violent, nasty bits... ignore the peaceful, tolerant bits.

Got it.


----------



## Boggo (27 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Pick the bad, violent, nasty bits... ignore the peaceful, tolerant bits.
> 
> Got it.




I will try to remember that the next time I am on jury duty


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## luutzu (27 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> In its initial more pacifist phase, Mohammed did not get that many followers and few were converting so he switched to a more 'proactiv'e aka sword based version  gifting the initial followers with raiding loots/slaves etc;
> It was a great tactical move and this is what made Islam so successfull in term of territory gains.
> 
> But who needs to know the truth or facts when people only want to see what they want to see.
> ...






Tell us how Christianity was elevated from a crazy cult with followers eating the flesh, drinking the blood of their Savior, living on the fringes of the Roman Empire... then became a state-sanctioned religion again?

It became a state religion, a religion of the Roman Empire, only after a desperate Constantine use it to win a battle that made him Emperor. Right?

Didn't that just show that Christianity, like any religion and tool of states, are so because they are useful to the state and its masters?

Paraphrasing Edward Gibbon on the Roman empire before Constantine: Of the various people from the various provinces of Rome, the common people all believe the various gods and idols to be true; the wise men all consider them to be false; the magistrate all consider them useful.

Yea, useful. 

Christianity changed right? It bring peace among all the Christian kingdoms? Encourage science and equal rights and liberty and feeding the poor and not owning slaves and ending wars?

Warmongering Christian states are ancient history. 

How about the last 500 years? It show that Christianity can never be use to justify wars and missions to bring indigenous barbarians to either civilise or meet their new makers?

All that was not to show that Christian is this and that... but to show that maybe we ought to not believe in the piety and religious bs if it mean we'd have to kill people.


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

Boggo said:


> I will try to remember that the next time I am on jury duty




You might be taking things out of context there.


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'd bet you could cherry pick counter memes to all those deceptions.




Yin and Yang right. No one, nothing, is perfect. 

Depends on what we want to focus on.


----------



## Tisme (27 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Tell us how Christianity was elevated from a crazy cult with followers eating the flesh, drinking the blood of their Savior, living on the fringes of the Roman Empire... then became a state-sanctioned religion again?
> 
> It became a state religion, a religion of the Roman Empire, only after a desperate Constantine use it to win a battle that made him Emperor. Right?
> 
> ...




The Muslims had every opportunity to go along with the ride into the civilised society the west is today, but instead it rooted itself in a stagnation 1500 years ago and has very little positive to show for itself that can be attributed to paternalistic Islam. The only reason wealth and remnants of education in the middle east, the Stan countries, etc exists is because of the Brits and the industrial revolution with its roots in the 17th century and the eventual need for massive fuel quantities.


----------



## luutzu (27 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> The Muslims had every opportunity to go along with the ride into the civilised society the west is today, but instead it rooted itself in a stagnation 1500 years ago and has very little positive to show for itself that can be attributed to paternalistic Islam. The only reason wealth and remnants of education in the middle east, the Stan countries, etc exists is because of the Brits and the industrial revolution with its roots in the 17th century and the eventual need for massive fuel quantities.




I think it was Liddell Hart, in the introduction to his translation of Sun Tzu's _The Art of War_ said that if the generals of Europe had read Sun Tzu, WW2 would have been less destructive - millions of people wouldn't have been killed from the carpet bombing.

If we compare Chinese/Asian imperialism and statecraft to those of Europe, the Asian are less destructive. Maybe both are equally murderous in the initial invasion, but afterwards the Chinese/Mongolian/Japanese... they know how to keep the peace and extract the taxation and loots without much resentment or impoverishing the natives.

Recent warmongers and Caesar wannabe... they tend to follow the lesser, more destructive and least succesful of the Roman ways of empire. Augustus drew up clear Roman boundaries; so did Hadrian... currently the world's our oyster and no one can have any of it or we're gonna go nuclear. Not sure if the Chinese would flinch, and if they did, would we see it.


----------



## qldfrog (28 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, I did the same months ago. Skipping over the posts knowing they are devoid of worthwhile argument requires allocating more effort that is deserved, but one has no choice when ASF doesn't have an ignore button.



Actually Bellenuit, there is one way you can ignore specific posters go to your *asf setting*, edit* ignore list* and add the posters you think are being redemption (pun intended) and you get serenity while they do the victory  dance in their study.
I failed but as I said :you can bring a donkey to the water, you can not force it to drink: too much hidden ressentment drawn from personal history and parallel drawing between irrelevant situations to allow clarity in judgment
I hope at least some here will take the time to dig in and try to understand what is happening, without swallowing the media propaganda.Then they can make their mind: just read the Koran (not separate extracts here and then)


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## Tisme (28 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> I think it was Liddell Hart, in the introduction to his translation of Sun Tzu's _The Art of War_ said that if the generals of Europe had read Sun Tzu, WW2 would have been less destructive - millions of people wouldn't have been killed from the carpet bombing.
> 
> If we compare Chinese/Asian imperialism and statecraft to those of Europe, the Asian are less destructive. Maybe both are equally murderous in the initial invasion, but afterwards the Chinese/Mongolian/Japanese... they know how to keep the peace and extract the taxation and loots without much resentment or impoverishing the natives.
> 
> Recent warmongers and Caesar wannabe... they tend to follow the lesser, more destructive and least succesful of the Roman ways of empire. Augustus drew up clear Roman boundaries; so did Hadrian... currently the world's our oyster and no one can have any of it or we're gonna go nuclear. Not sure if the Chinese would flinch, and if they did, would we see it.




You seem to be enamoured by anything Chinese/Asian luutzu, a civilisation that fails into poverty and misery more than than abundance of unicorns and candy canes.

Have you researched the Mongols of the 13th century and the mass destruction, genocidal crueity, etc of both the mongols and the Han chinese who defected to their cause.

As Claude LÃ©vi-Strauss suggested in the Savage Mind.....primitives tend to avoid tribal genus and project the essential characteristics of man outside the group when convenient to do so, especially when explaining questionable traits.....lumping all of us into one congenital mess as it were. Only triumphs tend to be owned by the victors.


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## luutzu (28 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> You seem to be enamoured by anything Chinese/Asian luutzu, a civilisation that fails into poverty and misery more than than abundance of unicorns and candy canes.
> 
> Have you researched the Mongols of the 13th century and the mass destruction, genocidal crueity, etc of both the mongols and the Han chinese who defected to their cause.
> 
> As Claude LÃ©vi-Strauss suggested in the Savage Mind.....primitives tend to avoid tribal genus and project the essential characteristics of man outside the group when convenient to do so, especially when explaining questionable traits.....lumping all of us into one congenital mess as it were. Only triumphs tend to be owned by the victors.




If you study any culture in any detail, they all have much to admire and also much to learn and abandon. Best to learn what is good and be objective about it.

All the books and lectures I learn from are by Western scholars so it's not just cultural bias at play.



In terms of poverty and the Third World, it is just factually false that Asia/Chinese and other non-Western civilisation are poorer or more miserable than Western ones. 

We look at the slumps and the poverty we see today in these countries; we contrast that with the riches and technological marvels currently developed and enjoyed in the West, and sure, we project that back and think that other civilisations must have been like that for most of their existence. That's false.

I've heard from historians, Western scholars, that Europe's economic development and industrial achievements were at about the same level as that of Egypt, of various African kingdoms, on par with India, below China's... at the time of European expansion and colonialism. 

Egypt's grain and agricultural exports were on par with that of the US when it was marching towards its West; India's cotton and manufacturing was on par with Britain's at colonisation. 

So why has the West advanced as it did while others tend to fall as they do. The West tend to think it's all due to just hard work, ingenuity and whatever that is good... but colonialism and exploitation also play a major role. You can see this when you look at the non-Western countries that develop and prospered on par with Western ones - namely Japan and South Korea.

Some will say that it's because Japan and S.Korea follow the superior Western culture and democracy etc. That's not true when you look closer at it.

Korea was a colony of Japan; Japan managed to industrialised and develop, then take on Russia and the West, mainly because they managed to avoid Western colonisation. 

All other countries and people that failed to stop Western colonialism either have their population wiped out or the population mainly in tact but reduced to poverty. 

That's not a judgment on Western people or any such thing. Just facts and how empires tend to gain power.

This take to my original point, and one that Liddell Hart (a British historian and military officer), lessons that Machiavelli and others have also discussed - how are colonies to be pacified and kept; what are the ways in which wars can "profitably" be carried out.

I mean, Alexander's empire stretches from Greece all the way to Afghanistan; Genghis Khan's across the entire "civilised" world; Chi'n to today's China... how did they managed to keep their empire intact, or at least among their own elites, after the original empire fades away at the death of its founder.

What they did, well... what they did after the initial bloodbath, is they put themselves into power and adapt to the customs of the colonised. They work to enrich and develop the local economies, extracting tributes and riches, but not completely destroy it.

So Alexander's generals divvy up his vast empire and within the same generation married into the elite and become part of the colony they now rule over; The same with the Mongolian, with various Khanates, all adopting the model and practises of the conquered subject - such as Kublai Khan's Yuan Dynasty in China; or the Manchurian adopting Han Chinese practises (with minor dress code changes) once conquered.

Rome kind of achieve similar unification, but it's more through the accidental adoption of Christianity, which then split up into various kingdoms... 

So move now to the more recent European imperialism. Contrast the general practise and with very little exception, European planners tend to either take it all (Aus., NZ, the Americas), or they put up an ethnic fascade using native puppets as head of state (Middle East, parts of north Africa, Asia, SE Asia). 

But all through, European imperialism lean towards the gutting out of their subject rather than a "more sensible" approach of not killing the host. The Greeks under Alexander, the Mongolians, the Chinese, the Japanese... they tend to only cut off the head and assimilate to the natives or at least began to let the native thrive and develop and pay their taxes. 

These are not to measure what kind of imperialism is better or whose "people" are "better warlords". It's to try and see where the kind of imperialism as currently practised will take the world.

The Eastern way of wars and empire tend to go with Sun Tzu's dictum of better to take the country whole; victory is more complete if it does not involve destruction or war. The Western ways tend to flatten cities and salt their earth with salt (as the Roman did) or daisy cutters. 

Future historians may look back at this modern period of ours as a lost opportunity to build a more lasting peace with a more unified planet. It is just idiotic to keep fighting wars when you have so much arms, economic power and global influence. You could extract the riches of the world to yourself, your country, and does it without fighting or impoverishing the conquered.

The West could have complete victory, as defined by Sun Tzu, but it's throwing it away and go for broke.


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## bellenuit (28 July 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Actually Bellenuit, there is one way you can ignore specific posters go to your *asf setting*, edit* ignore list* and add the posters you think are being redemption (pun intended) and you get serenity while they do the victory  dance in their study.
> I failed but as I said :you can bring a donkey to the water, you can not force it to drink: too much hidden ressentment drawn from personal history and parallel drawing between irrelevant situations to allow clarity in judgment
> I hope at least some here will take the time to dig in and try to understand what is happening, without swallowing the media propaganda.Then they can make their mind: just read the Koran (not separate extracts here and then)




Thanks qldfrog. Works perfectly.


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## luutzu (28 July 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Thanks qldfrog. Works perfectly.




And that, my friend, is how innocent people can be slaughtered without much protests from those whose protest could make a difference.


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## MrBurns (29 July 2016)




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## luutzu (29 July 2016)

MrBurns said:


>





What attack?

Angry protestors screaming nasty crab... dam, Islam is evil. We couldn't find any angry religious nuts among other religion at all.

Crazy religious Muslims shouting against non-believers.


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## Tisme (29 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> What attack?
> 
> Angry protestors screaming nasty crab... dam, Islam is evil. We couldn't find any angry religious nuts among other religion at all.
> 
> Crazy religious Muslims shouting against non-believers.




Abusing the privilege of freedom of speech afforded them by non muslims. Clearly the west provides a theatre for low life to act out their fantasies.


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## luutzu (29 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> Abusing the privilege of freedom of speech afforded them by non muslims. Clearly the west provides a theatre for low life to act out their fantasies.




I don't see any violence or property damages in that video. So what attack? What lowlife?

They're loud, told the police and UK to go to heck... yea shouldn't have used those words. But we seriously haven't heard or seen worst at protests? YouTube doesn't have "Christian" swearing against gay and Muslims and telling them to go to the same place?

Yes, Western democracies are all built by White and Christian people. The coolies and the A-rab are just there to abuse and milk the system, so they better shut up, turn up to factories on time and head quietly back to their ghettos.

God dam ingrates daring to vent anger at perceived Police and gov't injustices? How dare these Coloured still worship their "god" and raise their barbaric voice? Heel! Know your dam place!


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## Tisme (29 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> I don't see any violence or property damages in that video. So what attack? What lowlife?
> 
> They're loud, told the police and UK to go to heck... yea shouldn't have used those words. But we seriously haven't heard or seen worst at protests? YouTube doesn't have "Christian" swearing against gay and Muslims and telling them to go to the same place?
> 
> ...





There  you go. That wasn't so hard was it. where others have failed I have turned you to the light. Sure others protest, but they don't generally back it up with organised and condoned murder in the name of a skyfairy.


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## luutzu (29 July 2016)

Tisme said:


> There  you go. That wasn't so hard was it. where others have failed I have turned you to the light. Sure others protest, but they don't generally back it up with organised and condoned murder in the name of a skyfairy.




I don't remember hearing those protestors calling to kill anyone. "going to hell"... you gotta be a bit too literal and sensitive to take that to mean the protestors will do it. 

So does this obligation to explain and apologise ("Excuse") for actions by strangers-who-look-and-pray-like-me, does it only apply to Arabs and Muslims? Or apply to all Asians and Irish as well?

If it's the latter, a lot of us has been slacking in our duties.


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## SirRumpole (30 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> I don't remember hearing those protestors calling to kill anyone. "going to hell"... you gotta be a bit too literal and sensitive to take that to mean the protestors will do it.
> 
> So does this obligation to explain and apologise ("Excuse") for actions by strangers-who-look-and-pray-like-me, does it only apply to Arabs and Muslims? Or apply to all Asians and Irish as well?
> 
> If it's the latter, a lot of us has been slacking in our duties.




There are probably crazy Christians out there but they haven't been active in blowing people up for no good reason, but when they do you can have no doubt that we will criticise them as well.


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## luutzu (30 July 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> There are probably crazy Christians out there but they haven't been active in blowing people up for no good reason, but when they do you can have no doubt that we will criticise them as well.




Don't think there's ever a good reason to blow anyone up - but I get your point.

There's always the bias, and this is not unique to White people, all race tend to do it... and that is if the criminal looks and sound like us then it's the case of one bad apple; if the criminal is of another race or religion, well they're all like that, except for maybe a few enlightened one. 

But we've come a long way.. so let's accentuate the positive and wince at the reality that some people haven't yet gotten the memo; or mingled much among the barbarians.

alright, back to try and make a few bucks. By that universal measure of ability, I'm fairly light.


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## Macquack (30 July 2016)

luutzu, what is your opinion on France's banning of the burqa in public places?


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## luutzu (31 July 2016)

Macquack said:


> luutzu, what is your opinion on France's banning of the burqa in public places?




If we believe in freedom and all that, banning people from practising their religion and customs is wrong. 

What criteria would need to be met to ban something? Security; Safety; Free the oppressed?

I remember those were the arguments they made right?

How many terrorists put on a Burqa and go nuts?

Aren't there already  laws in place to protect those who are oppressed and abused? Domestic violence etc.?

So that kind of law is just full of it.

---

If we think about it a bit, all these anti-Muslim stuff are state sanctioned. There are plenty of examples, just they're not all as obvious as France's banning the Burqa and headscarf. 

How do you get people to go to war?

Even in a dictatorship, going to war is asking the people and the country to do a lot of things they'd rather not do. So how do you get them to do it?

You tell them, then you give them some taste, of the danger they're in.

You tell them that the enemy is evil and vile and all that is bad.

You tell your people that they represent humanity's best last hope to free people, to protect their kids...


Then people will say... take my sons, my daughters, take my live... let them go and protect their country and our way of life.

Here's a few hundred million of our treasures - take it and come back when you need more. Buy the hardware you need, pay those nice contractors and war profiteer their share... and at home, we'll put off investment and spending on ourselves and our young.


Can't really ask your people make that kind of sacrifices and to go kill other people if they're not upset and angry, can you? Can't really take the people's money, give it to your friends and make yourself a warrior king up doing things Alexander did but failed.

So the luckier plebs, like ourselves, get to pay for all these with just cash and some blood... the other poorer plebs get to be called names and slaughtered in their millions. And the warmongers who win get to hang the other warmongers and do their victory dance; if it stalemate then the ones who sign the final peace treaty get a Nobel Peace Prize.  

Then in between, millions get killed; hundreds of billions and trillions get transferred from public treasuries to private accounts... then with all that cash and all that influence, we start again with new enemies who will rape our women  and children, or new savages to civilised.


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## Wysiwyg (31 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> Crazy religious Muslims shouting against non-believers.



Tolerant lot those original poms aren't they.


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## Macquack (31 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> If we believe in freedom and all that, banning people from practising their religion and customs is wrong.
> 
> What criteria would need to be met to ban something? Security; Safety; Free the oppressed?
> 
> ...




Good rant, but for once I do not agree with you.




> What criteria would need to be met to ban something? Security; Safety; Free the oppressed?




I am not concerned about the terrorism hype. I don't like any religion being in my face and I believe these face coverings are a form of oppression of women. How do deaf people deal with people with their face covered? How do other people recognize them? I think the French government  has got it right on this issue.

From Wikipedia


> The law was challenged and taken to the European Court of Human Rights which upheld the French law on 1 July 2014, accepting the argument of the French government that the law was based on "*a certain idea of living together*".


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## Wysiwyg (31 July 2016)

> From Wikipedia
> The law was challenged and taken to the European Court of Human Rights which upheld the French law on 1 July 2014, accepting the argument of the French government that the law was based on "a certain idea of living together".



Yes if you want to live in this country you live under this countries laws. Very very simple logic.


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## noco (31 July 2016)

Nice to see some more Pauline Hanson supports on ASF.....She is gaining lots of traction on this subject.


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## luutzu (31 July 2016)

Macquack said:


> Good rant, but for once I do not agree with you.
> 
> 
> I am not concerned about the terrorism hype. I don't like any religion being in my face and I believe these face coverings are a form of oppression of women. How do deaf people deal with people with their face covered? How do other people recognize them? I think the French government  has got it right on this issue.
> ...




If others were to do what we like, how we like it, then there's not much freedom there.

I'm with you, and a lot of "normal" people, in thinking that maybe covering up like that is too much. But then who are we to tell people how to dress. People are not supposed to dress in ways to make other people feel comfortable. 


It might very well be that a burqa demeans and oppress women; and so society should help those women and let them go out into the open. That's all good, but banning the Burqa is not going to achieve that.

If those women are oppressed, if their husband is abusive - there are laws that will help them.

How are those women going to get help if they can't get out and meet people?

If the law was intended to get those women to live in the community, how does banning and forcing them to stay at home going to help that?

As wrong as it might sound, maybe those wearing the burqa are comfortable with it. It's what they were brought up, and without being abused or forced, find that that's how they are modest and filial to their faith.

Who are we to say, na, we don't accept that kind of voodoo.

Maybe letting them out in contact with other women might change their mind.


Where I live, I saw women in burqa and face/headscarf walking around, doing the shopping and stuff. To ban them from going out in public is not better than the bloody Taliban banning them from going outside without a male guardian - just make life more difficult, and further isolate them.


So yea, unless someone's rights would harm others, it should not be taken away from them just to make others feel good. I mean, some would prefer all women to wear bikinis, or show lots of skin... should we ban clothes that cover "too much"?


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## nioka (31 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> If others were to do what we like, how we like it, then there's not much freedom there.
> 
> I'm with you, and a lot of "normal" people, in thinking that maybe covering up like that is too much. But then who are we to tell people how to dress. People are not supposed to dress in ways to make other people feel comfortable.
> 
> ...




Fair enough but. 
Should they have photo ID for a drivers licence. The rest of us have to.
Should they be allowed into a bank. Motor bike riders have to take off a helmet to enter a bank.


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## luutzu (31 July 2016)

noco said:


> Nice to see some more Pauline Hanson supports on ASF.....She is gaining lots of traction on this subject.




Hanson is just another politician saying whatever to fill that niche of voters so she could get a job. 

Beside not liking Muslims, or Chinese, or Asian, or other minorities... what else has she done to make the lives of Australian better?

If a person really take their job seriously, take their responsibilities seriously, and that person has political power... they won't still be talking about race and minorities but little else after all these years.

It's not even my day job and I already have an opinion about whether the corporate tax cuts is going to create job or not. I don't need to wait for the Liberal party hacks who came up with the idea to sell me on it. Freaking YouTube, call up a few university economists; talk to workers etc. etc.

What else could beggar the average Aussies beside illegals and Muslims? I wouldn't put too much faith in people wrapping themselves in the flag and beating up on small funny looking people to feel the pain of other small white people.


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## luutzu (31 July 2016)

nioka said:


> Fair enough but.
> Should they have photo ID for a drivers licence. The rest of us have to.
> Should they be allowed into a bank. Motor bike riders have to take off a helmet to enter a bank.




Helmet and hats aren't religious or cultural wears right?

I remember reading before that their religion permit other women to see their face/ID them. So at airport, or bank or taking license ID... as long as it's a female looking at them, it's fine.

That's strange and sure, we could all do without that kind of hassle... that's why not many countries are free or democratic.


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## nioka (31 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> what else has she done to make the lives of Australian better?
> 
> .




She made damn good fish and chips. 

She also brought into the political arena the thoughts of a large percentage of Australians.


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## Macquack (31 July 2016)

luutzu said:


> I'm with you, and a lot of "normal" people, in thinking that maybe covering up like that is too much. But then *who are we to tell people how to dress*. People are not supposed to dress in ways to make other people feel comfortable.



  You can't walk around naked in public, that is illegal. Well you can't walk around in France with a sack on your head. Where is the loss of freedom, it is a beat up.



luutzu said:


> If those women are oppressed, if their husband is abusive - there are laws that will help them.



Many would disagree with that over simplistic answer. Many women subject to abuse become trapped and are too scared to get help.



luutzu said:


> How are those women going to get help if they can't get out and meet people?



My observation is these women are not meeting too many people with their faces all but completely covered.



luutzu said:


> If the law was intended to get those women to live in the community, how does banning and forcing them to stay at home going to help that?




The ban does not force them to stay at home. There is no culture in the world where males do the shopping.



luutzu said:


> As wrong as it might sound, maybe those wearing the burqa are comfortable with it. It's what they were brought up, and without being abused *or forced*, find that that's how they are modest and filial to their faith.



I have heard that argument, but I think it is just an excuse to continue to oppress women.



luutzu said:


> *Who are we to say, na*, we don't accept that kind of *voodoo*.



The French government comprehensively said "na".



luutzu said:


> So yea, unless someone's rights would harm others, it should not be taken away from them just to make others feel good. I mean, some would prefer all women to wear bikinis, or show lots of skin... should we ban clothes that cover "too much"?



Yes, too little is already banned. So to ban too much, as in you can't even see a persons face, is reasonable to me.

Anyway, Au Revoir my friend.


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## SirRumpole (1 August 2016)

Regarding the burqua, should we allow people to walk around in chains or handcuffs if their religion says so ?

This is a country where people should be free. Women who are required to wear burquas may well be the subject of forced marriages, that's anti freedom in itself.

Then there is the identification issue. A way of doing criminal acts without being recognised.

All up there are more reasons to ban the burqua than to keep it.


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## noco (1 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Regarding the burqua, should we allow people to walk around in chains or handcuffs if their religion says so ?
> 
> This is a country where people should be free. Women who are required to wear burquas may well be the subject of forced marriages, that's anti freedom in itself.
> 
> ...




Geez Rumpy, we are the same wave link again...

You are starting think like Pauline.....I believe she would have gained a lot of support from SBS last night.


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## wayneL (1 August 2016)

Yeah!!! What right have we got to ban the mutilation of little girl genitals luu?


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## Tink (1 August 2016)

Is that the same as the gays mutilating their children's gender?


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## Tisme (1 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> If others were to do what we like, how we like it, then there's not much freedom there.
> 
> I'm with you, and a lot of "normal" people, in thinking that maybe covering up like that is too much. But then who are we to tell people how to dress. People are not supposed to dress in ways to make other people feel comfortable.
> 
> ...




I think your arguments are predicated on a prejudice that muslim women have the same power fit as Australian and at least what SE Asian women enjoy. There is no way that middle eastern and sub continent muslim femmes have an honest independent voice and freedom of choice... it's just plain anti islam to allow it.

Men parading women and worse; women parading women as bedouins,  when the saharan sands and camels are a long lost memory is nothing more than a deliberate insult to the prevailing host free nation that is sheltering them from their own endemically diseased culture. It's disgraceful the way women are treated by arabic and stan muslims and the uptake of Stockholm syndrome amongst the women themselves .... 



... unless of course we are being spared this:


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## moXJO (1 August 2016)

Macquack said:


> I am not concerned about the terrorism hype. I don't like any religion being in my face.




This^^^^^

Religion should be a private thing worshipped at home. I'd be happy to ban every religion. 
People seem to mix race and religion together- but religion is a choice. It should not have a voice in modern society. The moment it begins to voice it's opinions on how the masses should behave it becomes the "oppressor" not a "freedom".
And that is how religion has always spread. It's like a virus and was used to control the masses.


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## Gringotts Bank (1 August 2016)

moXJO said:


> This^^^^^
> ... but religion is a choice.




That's the whole problem.  It's rarely a choice.  

The more primitive the religion, the more likely the community's identity is enmeshed in it.  To break free is to risk excomunication or even death.


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## bellenuit (1 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> That's the whole problem.  It's rarely a choice.
> 
> The more primitive the religion, the more likely the community's identity is enmeshed in it.  To break free is to risk excomunication or even death.




Plus the psychological trauma associated with years of indoctrination that Hell awaits those who leave or do not follow the chosen path.


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## moXJO (1 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> That's the whole problem.  It's rarely a choice.
> 
> The more primitive the religion, the more likely the community's identity is enmeshed in it.  To break free is to risk excomunication or even death.




I should clarify that I was talking about Australia. Not Afghanistan. 

But that is the problem with Islam. Their whole identity is wrapped up in their religion. But when given enough freedom then religion does start taking a back seat.
It's the social retards with to much time on their hands I worry about


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## luutzu (1 August 2016)

Macquack said:


> You can't walk around naked in public, that is illegal. Well you can't walk around in France with a sack on your head. Where is the loss of freedom, it is a beat up.




You know what they say about people who like walking around naked... they're often the type whose body really shouldn't be showing in public   That and there are kids around.

A burqa is their dress code, not a sack.

I know a guy who wouldn't be caught dead in public wearing BigW or otherwise unbranded clothes. He tells his wife she shouldn't dress so poorly either. 



Macquack said:


> Many would disagree with that over simplistic answer. Many women subject to abuse become trapped and are too scared to get help.




Maybe they are, maybe they're not. We can't assume. That'd be like suing parents whose daughter dress in short shorts or EMO or whatever thinking they must not be teaching them right.



Macquack said:


> My observation is these women are not meeting too many people with their faces all but completely covered.




I saw two or three walking together. But they'd really be stuck at home if their dress code are banned.



Macquack said:


> The ban does not force them to stay at home. There is no culture in the world where males do the shopping.



I'm not sure how a burqa let you shop, how do you grab stuff.. but anyway. 




Macquack said:


> I have heard that argument, but I think it is just an excuse to continue to oppress women.




It probably was designed that way by some insecure religious idiot. But for those who grew up with that norm, maybe give them time and the husband can see that ey, maybe it's more comfortable for my wife to not be so covered. It's sunny here but not that freaking sunny.




Macquack said:


> The French government comprehensively said "na".




Not all French I'm sure. But let's ban the eating of frog and snails and rabbits... those freaks actually eat that. Dogs I can understand, and even that is banned 





Macquack said:


> Yes, too little is already banned. So to ban too much, as in you can't even see a persons face, is reasonable to me.
> 
> Anyway, Au Revoir my friend.




As one of our dear Senators once told a Irish [Scottish?] Senator, we speak Australian here mate.


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## luutzu (1 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Regarding the burqua, should we allow people to walk around in chains or handcuffs if their religion says so ?
> 
> This is a country where people should be free. Women who are required to wear burquas may well be the subject of forced marriages, that's anti freedom in itself.
> 
> ...







wayneL said:


> Yeah!!! What right have we got to ban the mutilation of little girl genitals luu?






Australia, and Australian, I find are very tolerant... but we're not that tolerant right? We don't permit cultural or personal practices that goes against Australian law and principles/values

So no corporal punishments, cruelty to animals, under-age marriage, spousal abuse, genital mutilation etc.

How does people's religion/cultural dress code infringe on Australian values and freedom and all that?

Sure we can assume those women should know better and want different if they are free... maybe. But banning their dress code would more likely keep them at home and isolated than liberating them.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> I think your arguments are predicated on a prejudice that muslim women have the same power fit as Australian and at least what SE Asian women enjoy. There is no way that middle eastern and sub continent muslim femmes have an honest independent voice and freedom of choice... it's just plain anti islam to allow it.
> 
> Men parading women and worse; women parading women as bedouins,  when the saharan sands and camels are a long lost memory is nothing more than a deliberate insult to the prevailing host free nation that is sheltering them from their own endemically diseased culture. It's disgraceful the way women are treated by arabic and stan muslims and the uptake of Stockholm syndrome amongst the women themselves ....
> 
> ...




I've met enough Arab/Muslim women to know that they're not as mousy and quiet or helpless as we might think. 

Yea well, maybe it's their way of not getting skin cancer living in Australia. No need for slip slop slap. 

Your jokes can be too... mmm deep. Dumb it down a few notch McGuiness.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> Sure we can assume those women should know better and want different if they are free... maybe. But banning their dress code would more likely keep them at home and isolated than liberating them.




Maybe they may have the guts to get out of a dominated relationship if they no longer have to wear the chains of submission.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> That's the whole problem.  It's rarely a choice.
> 
> The more primitive the religion, the more likely the community's identity is enmeshed in it.  To break free is to risk excomunication or even death.




All religion are primitive. And all religion have its fair share of religious nuts.

We might like to believe that Christians or Jews are all enlightened and nut-free; or that it's just superior and have no stupid superstition and voodoo crab. But that's just wrong, and a few seconds on google will prove it.


----------



## luutzu (1 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe they may have the guts to get out of a dominated relationship if they no longer have to wear the chains of submission.




One thing is for sure - if their dress are banned, they won't have many opportunity going to see community services or run into other women who could tell them where to go and what to do when the husband beat them up or whatever.


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## Value Collector (1 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe they may have the guts to get out of a dominated relationship if they no longer have to wear the chains of submission.




I find telling women what not to wear, to be just as bad as telling them what to wear.

Religion and government need to get out of the wardrobe, and let women decide what is best for them.


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## MrBurns (1 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe they may have the guts to get out of a dominated relationship if they no longer have to wear the chains of submission.





Doesn't just apply to Muslims.


----------



## bellenuit (1 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe they may have the guts to get out of a dominated relationship if they no longer have to wear the chains of submission.




I have read so many articles written by outspoken muslim women who want the West to ban the more repressive forms of dress as it would greatly assist Muslim women in general in confronting their husbands and, more often, the extreme fellow muslims in their locality. The regressive left and in particular the feminist movement who continually fail to understand that their dress code is rarely a voluntary choice is to them heartbreaking.


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## luutzu (1 August 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I find telling women what not to wear, to be just as bad as telling them what to wear.
> 
> Religion and government need to get out of the wardrobe, and let women decide what is best for them.




I don't think any men would mind this Muslim garb


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## wayneL (1 August 2016)

Grasshopper, what do you think of western VIPs covering their hair in muslim countries?


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## SirRumpole (1 August 2016)

Value Collector said:


> I find telling women what not to wear, to be just as bad as telling them what to wear.
> 
> Religion and government need to get out of the wardrobe, and let women decide what is best for them.




Trouble is it's their husbands that decide, not the women.


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## luutzu (1 August 2016)

wayneL said:


> Grasshopper, what do you think of western VIPs covering their hair in muslim countries?




I thought how lucky we are to live in a free country where the government and God's chosen clerics don't force people how to dress.


You were thinking maybe I'd say "house rules" or something right Sifu


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## luutzu (1 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Trouble is it's their husbands that decide, not the women.




We're assuming that. 

But say it's the husband and the clerics that force the women how to dress... what are we doing by putting our foot down, pass a bill that tell them how to dress?


Sometime it could just be that that's how it was done back in the old country, and given enough time, they might rethink that it's no longer for them. 

Would forcing a ban do more harm than good?


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## SirRumpole (1 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> We're assuming that.
> 
> But say it's the husband and the clerics that force the women how to dress... what are we doing by putting our foot down, pass a bill that tell them how to dress?
> 
> ...




It's a cultural difference. We don't trust people whose faces we can't see and if other cultures want to live here they should adapt to our culture, not the other way around.


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## Macquack (1 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> One thing is for sure - if their dress are banned, they won't have many opportunity going to see community services or run into other women who could tell them where to go and what to do when the husband beat them up or whatever.




I don't buy that argument. If the burqa was banned, do you think all these women would just lock themselves in their house? 

Anyway, the French government are making sure that the next generation of muslim women will be "free" of this ridiculous shackle to an archaic custom.

The French government are not just picking on muslims - 







> The wearing of all conspicuous religious symbols in public schools was previously banned in 2004 by a different law, the French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools. This affected the wearing of Islamic veils and headscarves in schools, as well as turbans and other distinctive items of dress.


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## Macquack (1 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> Your jokes (Tisme) can be too... mmm deep. Dumb it down a few notch McGuiness.




Back to agreeing with you luutzu. I know I am a bit slow on the uptake, but with all his cryptic twists, I haven't EVER got a f***ing clue what Tisme is going on about.


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## luutzu (1 August 2016)

Macquack said:


> I don't buy that argument. If the burqa was banned, do you think all these women would just lock themselves in their house?
> 
> Anyway, the French government are making sure that the next generation of muslim women will be "free" of this ridiculous shackle to an archaic custom.
> 
> The French government are not just picking on muslims -




Don't know. If the women (or their husband) weren't too serious about the burqa then sure, they'll just take it off and go out. If they're quite serious about it, the husband will either have to do all the work, the women sneaks out while he's away, or she'll just stay home.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to bet that they're just bluffing.

If the French were serious about the next generation of girls etc., they shouldn't need to.

All parents will learn quick smart that their children ought to adapt. That certain cultural and religious practices will have to be eased off or either the kids won't have many opportunity to study and advanced, or the kid will leave home and run away, or stay home. 

I wouldn't want to say no parents are that ridiculous, but yea... these kind of policies are done to please the natives more than to protect the minority.


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## luutzu (1 August 2016)

Macquack said:


> Back to agreeing with you luutzu. I know I am a bit slow on the uptake, but with all his cryptic twists, I haven't EVER got a f***ing clue what Tisme is going on about.




He's Irish. Thick accent mix with alcohol mix with "humour" 

ain't that right McGuyver?


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## luutzu (1 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a cultural difference. We don't trust people whose faces we can't see and if other cultures want to live here they should adapt to our culture, not the other way around.




People can't adapt overnight. 

And part of Australian culture is being tolerant to harmless beliefs and practices.

Hard to make the point about hating oppressive practices forcing women to wear "bags" but making laws forcing them to not wear it.


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## SirRumpole (1 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> People can't adapt overnight.
> 
> And part of Australian culture is being tolerant to harmless beliefs and practices.




It's not harmless if it's oppressive or providing a cover for crime.


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## luutzu (1 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not harmless if it's oppressive or providing a cover for crime.




If it's oppressive, those oppressed women would have a better chance of seeking help then if the law give her husband more reason for her not to go out.

If our gov't really care for the oppressed Muslim women, they could send a social worker around... or just send letterbox pamphlets.

I'd imagine it'd be easier to commit crimes in an overcoat or clothing where you could breathe and run and not trip all over. That or a ski mask or those stockings.


Women and young girls needing to be in bikini for summer, need their body to slim way, way down to be "beach ready"... one can make a case that that is a form of oppression. Unhealthy, unrealistic, skin cancer, body image issue to young minds, sexualisation and objectifying women... that or freedom of expression?

anyway, it doesn't affect us or our safety, if the women wearing it is oppressed and abused existing laws already provide that protection... so I really don't think taking their rights to wear whatever is any of our business.


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## Tisme (2 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> He's Irish. Thick accent mix with alcohol mix with "humour"
> 
> ain't that right McGuyver?





Only certain nights have alcohol, other times it's more likely I'm running on three or four computers multitasking. I'm slightly more Scottish DNA pedigree than Oirish, but there isn't much left after that for the Viking remnants..... no wonder I feel so liberated as a superior being.


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## Tisme (2 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> People can't adapt overnight.
> 
> .




I remember the Pommy migrant men who, having isolated their wives from their English families, would turn into wife beaters. People back then didn't say a lot directly to the problem, but the drums beat the message out to the wider community and the coppers would be more than happy to give the hubby a few rounds in the cells when they inevitably got pinged. Sure they didn't change overnight, but the realisation there was always a tougher thug with a badge ready to pull them into line did modify the behaviours.


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## luutzu (2 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> Only certain nights have alcohol, other times it's more likely I'm running on three or four computers multitasking. I'm slightly more Scottish DNA pedigree than Oirish, but there isn't much left after that for the Viking remnants..... no wonder I feel so liberated as a superior being.




It is quite impressive to be doing what you're doing at your age on all four computers - what with one hand free and all 

I would have thought two monitors are enough, why the different computers? Oh, audio. 


I take it your convict ancestors came down under via the First Fleet from York? Half an hour flight from Ireland? Nice place York. I'm surprised it still stands given the meetings of Romans, Vikings, Scottish and other peaceniks there at one time or another.


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## luutzu (2 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> I remember the Pommy migrant men who, having isolated their wives from their English families, would turn into wife beaters. People back then didn't say a lot directly to the problem, but the drums beat the message out to the wider community and the coppers would be more than happy to give the hubby a few rounds in the cells when they inevitably got pinged. Sure they didn't change overnight, but the realisation there was always a tougher thug with a badge ready to pull them into line did modify the behaviours.




Were the cops mainly Irish here like they seem to be in the US? A legit excuse to beat up the poms I guess. 

Yea, we tend to forget that other races and cultures also have their fair share of a hole wife beaters too.


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## MrBurns (2 August 2016)

Religions that follow the Quran and believe in Sharia law just aren't compatible with western society.



> The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.




http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

I've never Googled the subject before but it seems to be packed with contradictions where violence is ok, even encouraged so how does that sit with the peaceful Islam ?

No point arguing that everything is ok it clearly isn't and someone (Govt) has to eventually stand up and try to adjust it for Western society...banning burqas and hijabs would be a start, wearing head scarves is ok but I never want to see another woman (I think) dressed from head to toe in black including the entire head...gliding down the supermarket isle.


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## Tisme (2 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> It is quite impressive to be doing what you're doing at your age on all four computers - what with one hand free and all
> 
> I would have thought two monitors are enough, why the different computers? Oh, audio.
> 
> ...




I actually run split screens too, with a couple of 40" TVs acting as monitors .... you know those BS movies like the latest Jason Bourne episode with lotsa screens etc ... that's me. So my brain is fried from doing computer stuff before Commodore 64 was born. Mate I was running PDP11's and writing code via cross assemblers before most people new what a keyboard was.... it's something that comes natural with real white supremacists (not them slavic americans who think they are palefaces) 

Use the internet and comps for everything from telemetry systems interfacing, HMI  access to automated facilities, taunting victims on the webs, autocad, Stan/Netflix/Bootleg vids, music, wan networking of my various premises, etc, etc. 

Actually my ancestors in Oz were free settlers which kinda disappoints me and first colonists of SA etc, way before aborigines snuck in from Melanesia around early 1900's. I'm also disappointed not to have native blood in me too, although that didn't stop me photoshopping the dna results to shock my puritanical mum into thinking it has happened back somewhere in the 1840s for effect.  I must let her know the truth before she carks it I suppose.


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## Macquack (2 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> I actually run split screens too, with a couple of 40" TVs acting as monitors .... you know those BS movies like the latest Jason Bourne episode with lotsa screens etc ... that's me. So my brain is fried from doing computer stuff before Commodore 64 was born. Mate I was running PDP11's and writing code via cross assemblers before most people new what a keyboard was.... it's something that comes natural with real white supremacists (not them slavic americans who think they are palefaces)
> 
> Use the internet and comps for everything from telemetry systems interfacing, HMI  access to automated facilities, taunting victims on the webs, autocad, Stan/Netflix/Bootleg vids, music, wan networking of my various premises, etc, etc.
> 
> Actually my ancestors in Oz were free settlers which kinda disappoints me and first colonists of SA etc, way before aborigines snuck in from Melanesia around early 1900's. I'm also disappointed not to have native blood in me too, although that didn't stop me photoshopping the dna results to shock my puritanical mum into thinking it has happened back somewhere in the 1840s for effect.  I must let her know the truth before she carks it I suppose.




Reinforces in my mind what I said earlier. Anyway, what ever drugs your on, can I have some? 

I do like what you write, but I can't work it out without getting a headache.


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## Tisme (2 August 2016)

Macquack said:


> Reinforces in my mind what I said earlier. Anyway, what ever drugs your on, can I have some?
> 
> I do like what you write, but I can't work it out without getting a headache.




I'll make a point of writing slower


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## Macquack (2 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> Hard to make the point about hating oppressive practices forcing women to wear "bags" but making laws forcing them to not wear it.




Lighten up luutzu, your statement is just a clever use of irony and nothing else.

All that I question and all that I think is reasonable, and the French people (as a whole) think is fair and reasonable is to be able to see a fellow citizen's face. Is that too much to ask?


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## luutzu (2 August 2016)

Macquack said:


> Lighten up luutzu, your statement is just a clever use of irony and nothing else.
> 
> All that I question and all that I think is reasonable, and the French people (as a whole) think is fair and reasonable is to be able to see a fellow citizen's face. Is that too much to ask?




 I was 

I just don't like the kind of policies where, on the surface and at the sales pitch, are always for the noblest of ideals. But the truth behind it are anything but. 

That is not to say the ideal is wrong, or that the objective is bad; definitely not saying that those who believe it have other motives - we don't because we actually believe in those ideals. But it's the politician who's selling it that pizzes me off. 

Like all these war on terror to keep us safe; or to liberate other people and help them build their democracy; or helping the poor by cutting their welfare so they'd be motivated and don't cheat the system. 

We all want that, and all that would be good... just those aren't the real reasons for why it's implemented. It's often the opposite of why it's implemented.

Man I could rant. Can't wait for old age to set in.


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## luutzu (2 August 2016)

Macquack said:


> Reinforces in my mind what I said earlier. Anyway, what ever drugs your on, can I have some?
> 
> I do like what you write, but I can't work it out without getting a headache.




He's quite good at double-speak. Like a Rorschach image that really doesn't mean anything by design except for what we project onto it.


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## Macquack (2 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> I just don't like the kind of policies where, on the surface and at the sales pitch, are always for the noblest of ideals. But the truth behind it are anything but.
> 
> Like all these war on terror to keep us safe




"Pre-emptive strikes'' as paraded and sanctioned by John Howard comes to mind.

How ****ing pathetic, ''lets get them before they get us''. Saddam Hussein was NO THREAT TO MANKIND. Now, that stupid philosophy has created all kinds of grief for the world. George W Bogan has a lot to answer for.


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## luutzu (2 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> I actually run split screens too, with a couple of 40" TVs acting as monitors .... you know those BS movies like the latest Jason Bourne episode with lotsa screens etc ... that's me. So my brain is fried from doing computer stuff before Commodore 64 was born. Mate I was running PDP11's and writing code via cross assemblers before most people new what a keyboard was.... it's something that comes natural with real white supremacists (not them slavic americans who think they are palefaces)
> 
> Use the internet and comps for everything from telemetry systems interfacing, HMI  access to automated facilities, taunting victims on the webs, autocad, Stan/Netflix/Bootleg vids, music, wan networking of my various premises, etc, etc.
> 
> Actually my ancestors in Oz were free settlers which kinda disappoints me and first colonists of SA etc, way before aborigines snuck in from Melanesia around early 1900's. I'm also disappointed not to have native blood in me too, although that didn't stop me photoshopping the dna results to shock my puritanical mum into thinking it has happened back somewhere in the 1840s for effect.  I must let her know the truth before she carks it I suppose.




You could really pack a lot of info into one post couldn't you? 

Good to hear you're not putting all that high-tech into chasing PokÃ©mon. Imagine engineers like yourself programming missions to the moon on a computer nowhere as capable as today's iPhone, and most of us idiots are using it for Facebook and chasing imaginary creatures. Well I don't use mine to cure cancer or anything but yea... Well done Gregor McGee.

Got to admire programmers cracking code before Visual Studio and the internet. Serious. My brother gave me a C# for beginners a year or two before the internet contain more useful stuff than just pr0n, and na... forget it. Who in their right mind read half a yellopages directory just to start writing "hello world" and randomise numbers on a monitor?

Now any idiot could write an app, and some does (ahem)... but man, it's quite amazing the progress that's been made just in the past decade. Just realised YouTube have these 360 videos where you could hold the tablet, moves it around and the video turns with you. We don't really need that, but it's cool though. 

Quite the prankster yea. Must be the Irish side from the few Irish I do know. Might end up having one in the family tree.. the folks aren't too thrilled about the prospect of having little red-headed White Devils running around their house one day. Na, they're not that bad. And you guys thought only White people are patriotic.


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## Wysiwyg (2 August 2016)

Macquack said:


> "Pre-emptive strikes'' as paraded and sanctioned by John Howard comes to mind.
> 
> How ****ing pathetic, ''lets get them before they get us''. Saddam Hussein was NO THREAT TO MANKIND. Now, that stupid philosophy has created all kinds of grief for the world. George W Bogan has a lot to answer for.



Ill Kim Jong has got weapons of mass destruction and is a threat but there will be no pre-emptive strike. Sometimes the American leaders should consider pulling their gung ho heads in. Now there is Trump.


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## luutzu (2 August 2016)

Macquack said:


> "Pre-emptive strikes'' as paraded and sanctioned by John Howard comes to mind.
> 
> How ****ing pathetic, ''lets get them before they get us''. Saddam Hussein was NO THREAT TO MANKIND. Now, that stupid philosophy has created all kinds of grief for the world. George W Bogan has a lot to answer for.




Yea that was really farked. I was too young and too occupied with trying to pick up chicks to follow it then but watching and listening to the lectures on it, wow man - our politicians and the "free press" really got together and screw up the world on that one.

I mean, pre-emptive strike is illegal and they're boasting it like it's the most obvious choice. The press and embedded "journalist" all took us for a ride. 

In one of Chomsky's lecture, he reminds us how much power us plebs in the West does have, and how many lives were saved when the public really get together.

He was comparing the anti-war movement during the Vietnam War and the Iraq 2 invasion... Where the VN anti-war movement didn't seriously get under way, mainly because the public didn't know much about what was happening, until about the mid 1960s - some 7 to 10 years before JFK kicked off the crusade.

Compare that to the global anti-war movement jumping on it before the actual invasion. That public outrage, Chomsky said, saved the Iraqis from what weapons was "suitable" on the tables of our paramount leaders.

When the public weren't paying attention, Agent Orange, napalm, chemical sprays to defoliate the jungles, removal of millions of farmers into concentration camps, the carpet bombing raids etc. etc.

Some four million people were wiped off the earth; a US state department planner was thinking outloud whether VN as a cultural and national identity would survive or extinct seeing how there's more tonnage dropped on SVN than all the tonnage from WW2 - one crater for every family.

With Iraq, our peaceniks can't use chemical weapons; can't openly slaughter Iraqis... their cities and towns and infrastructures are still flattened with certain "acceptable" White Phospherous and stuff.

But yea, lucky for those poor plebs the Western plebs had their moral code and restrain our warmongers a bit.

I guess that's why there's this talk of Islam and Muslim being evil - to take some edge and some scrutiny off of us idiots who can't see the "big picture".


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## bellenuit (3 August 2016)

This should be mandatory reading (and viewing) for those who still are apologetic or ambivalent about ISIS and suggest that they are just  a reaction to Western imperialism and hold views anathmetic to Islam .

Listen to all of it, but especially from the 5 minute mark. Their primary reasons are religious, religious, religious and religious. Western imperialism is listed as a secondary consideration and even if it didn't happen or stopped happening (depending on your view), it wouldn't make a difference to them. They still intend to kill you until you adopt Islam.

It is hatred of the West and non-muslims based entirely on religious dogma. An avowed hatred of gays, atheists, Christianity (one reason being the belief that God had a son) and everything we hold dear in our liberal Western societies.

Here is ISIS telling you directly why they hate you and want to kill you. Yet there are some (many unfortunately, including the Pope) who simply ignore what they are being told and think they know better. It's the "we know better than you do why you are doing it, no matter what you tell us" argument that is not just stupid but dangerous.

*ISIS Explains Why It Fights: It's The Religion, Stupid!*

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2016/08/02/isis-explains-why-it-fights-its-religion-stupid/


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## luutzu (3 August 2016)

bellenuit said:


> This should be mandatory reading (and viewing) for those who still are apologetic or ambivalent about ISIS and suggest that they are just  a reaction to Western imperialism and hold views anathmetic to Islam .
> 
> Listen to all of it, but especially from the 5 minute mark. Their primary reasons are religious, religious, religious and religious. Western imperialism is listed as a secondary consideration and even if it didn't happen or stopped happening (depending on your view), it wouldn't make a difference to them. They still intend to kill you until you adopt Islam.
> 
> ...




What other religious groups do we know in the ME that's been thumbing through its religious text to legitimise its claim to other people's land _and _ has been working very hard at it for some seven decades now.

And what other subset of some other religion we're more familiar with that's egging them on because their good book tell them their savior will only return once those other nuts cleanse the chosen land off infidels. Cleanse it so that the Lord savior returns and further cleanse the entire Earth, again! 

And what other non-religious nuts' ideas was it to invade and colonise at costs to their own blood and some $7 to $17 trillion dollars for things that they could spend maybe half on and have it delivered peacefully to their shores?

----

And people who try to discuss this issue rationally aren't "excusing" or "apologising" for terrorism. It's those useful idiots who buy into one evil enemy of state after another that are excusing endless wars of aggression and at the same time excusing the shameful neglect and abandonment of victims of those wars and the terrorist it creates.

Get off your high horse.


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## noco (4 August 2016)

This letter from  a pilot is exactly what Pauline Hanson has been preaching for 20 years.

I hope Malcolm Turnbull, Bill Shorten and Richard Di Natalie read and absorb the contents of  this letter and take some action here in Australia before it is too late.

*Pilot's response to a Muslim doctor's complaint! Very well said and worth reading!
This is, unfortunately true for most of us.

Read to the bottom, there also are a Canadian, British and Australian responses.

To me it makes a lot of sense, and would make for a better understanding between the different faiths.  

Please share with your Muslim friends!

No name calling, no hatred, no political agenda.

CANADIAN COMMENT APPEARS AT THE END OF THE
ARTICLE AND IS MEANINGFUL. 
THERE IS ALSO SOME RECENTLY ADDED BRITISH COMMENT.

This pilot hit the nail right on the head in his open letter.

A newspaper stated that some Muslim doctor is saying we are profiling him because he has been checked three times while getting on an airplane.  The following is a letter from a pilot.  This well - spoken man, who is a pilot with American Airlines, says what is in his heart, beautifully.


YOU WORRY ME!
By Captain John Maniscalco, American Airlines Pilot

I've been trying to say this since 911, but you worry me.  I wish you didn't.  I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, that your color and culture still blended with the beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country.  But you don't blend in anymore.  I notice you, and it worries me.

I notice you because I can't help it anymore.  People from your homelands, professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and killing my fellow citizens and our friends for more than 20 years now. 
I don't fully understand their grievances and hate, but I know that nothing can justify the inhumanity of their attacks.

On September 11, ARAB-MUSLIMS hijacked four jetliners in my country.  They cut the throats of women in front of children and brutally stabbed to death others, hacking their necks, over and over, with box cutters.  They took control of those planes and crashed them into buildings, killing thousands of proud fathers, loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best friends, favorite coaches, fearless public servants, and children's mothers.

The Palestinians celebrated, the Iraqis were overjoyed as was most of the Arab world.  So, I notice you now. I don't want to be worried.
I don't want to be consumed by the same rage, hate and prejudice that has destroyed the soul of these terrorists.  But I need your help.  As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an irrational and unsafe world, I must know how to tell the difference between you, and the Arab/Muslim terrorist.

How do I differentiate between the true Arab/Muslim Americans and the Arab/Muslim terrorists in our communities who are attending our schools, enjoying our parks, and living in OUR communities under the protection of OUR constitution, while they plot the next attack that will slaughter MORE of the same good neighbors and children?

The events of September 11 changed the answer..  It is not MY responsibility to determine which of you embraces our great country, with ALL of its religions, with ALL of its different citizens, with all of its faults.  It is time for every Arab/Muslim in this country to determine it for me.

I want to know, I DEMAND to know and I have a right to know, whether or not you love America .....  Do you pledge allegiance to its flag?  Do you proudly display it in front of your house, or on your car?  Do you pray in your many daily prayers that Allah will bless this nation; that He will protect it and let it prosper?  Or do you pray that Allah will destroy it in one of your Jihads?  Are you thankful for the freedom that this nation affords?  A freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of patriots, who have through our history, given their lives for this country?  Are you willing to preserve this freedom by also paying the ultimate sacrifice?  Do you love America??  If this is your commitment, then I need YOU to start letting ME know about it.

Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media at this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions YOU are taking as a community and as a religion to protect the United States of America.  Please, no more benign overtures of regret for the death of the innocent, because I worry about who you regard as innocent.  No more benign overtures of condemnation for the unprovoked attacks, because I worry about what is unprovoked to you. I am not interested in any more sympathy; I am interested only in action.  What will you do for America - our great country - at this time of continuing crisis, at this time of war?

I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the AMERICAN flag in the streets.  I want to hear you chanting 'Allah Bless America'.  I want to see young Arab/Muslim men enlisting in the military.  I want to see a commitment of money, time and emotion to the victims of this butchering and to our returning wounded and to this nation as a whole.

The FBI has had a long list of people they’ve wanted to interact with regarding the threats that they believe to be ongoing. Many of these people live and socialize right now in Muslim communities.  You know them.  You know where they are.  Give the FBI a heads up as to where they may be.  Better yet, hand them over to us, NOW!  But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action.  Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even tighter.  You have disappeared from the streets.  You have posted armed security guards at your facilities.  You have threatened lawsuits.  You have screamed for protection from reprisals.

The very few Arab/Muslim representatives, like CARE, that HAVE appeared in the media were defensive and equivocating.  They seemed more concerned with making sure that the United States apologize and take responsibility for actions defending our own people.  They seemed more concerned with protecting their fellow Muslims from violence directed towards them in the United States and abroad than they did with supporting our country and denouncing 'leaders' like the late Khadafi, the late Hussein, Farrakhan, and the late Arafat.

If the true teachings of Islam proclaim tolerance and peace and love for all people, then I want chapter and verse from the Koran and statements from popular Muslim leaders to back it up.  What good is itif the teachings in the Koran are good, pure, and true, when your 'leaders' ARE teaching fanatical interpretations, terrorism, and intolerance?  It matters little how good Islam SHOULD BE if huge numbers of the world's Muslims interpret the teachings of Mohammed incorrectly and adhere to a degenerative form of the religion.  A form that has been demonstrated to us over and over again.  A form whose structure is built upon a foundation of violence, death, and suicide.  A form whose members are recruited from the prisons around the world.

A form whose members (some as young as five years old) are seen day after day, week in and week out, year after year, marching in the streets around the world, burning effigies of our presidents, burning the American flag, shooting weapons into the air.  A form whose members convert from a peaceful religion, only to take up arms against the great United States of America, the country of their birth.  A form whose rules are so twisted, that their traveling members refuse to show their faces at airport security checkpoints, in the name of Islam.

We will NEVER allow the attacks of September 11, or any others for that matter, to take away that which is so precious to us -- our rights under the greatest constitution in the world.  I want to know where every Arab Muslim in this country stands and I think it is my right and the right of every true citizen of this country to DEMAND it.  A right paid for by the blood of thousands of my brothers and sisters who died protecting the very constitution that is protecting you and your family.

I am pleading with you to let me know.  I want you here as my brother, my neighbor, my friend, as a fellow American...... But there can be no grey areas or ambivalence regarding your allegiance, and it is up to YOU, to show ME, where YOU stand.  Until then, "YOU WORRY ME!"

CANADIAN COMMENTS:

I totally agree with this sentiment.  I hope you will forget all about the 'political correctness' mandate we've had rammed down our throats by so many on the left, and see if this doesn't ring true in your heart and mind.  For Canada, with all the multiculturalism we've been told is so important....why should we not, as Canadians, expect that the millions of new people immigrating to our country will show their love for our country, their allegiance to our country, their willingness to obey the laws of our country, and acceptance that we are a Christian country?  Just because they are able to enjoy exercising their own religion, they should NOT expect us to be ashamed of ours.  They knew Canada was a Christian country when they came here.  Why are we erasing Christianity because immigrants who are unwilling to adopt our way of life expect us to?  There is just too much insanity in the world, and we have to start taking a stand. 

I hope you will forward this, so that others will feel they are not alone if they are starting to feel the same.

BRITISH COMMENTS:  At last a clear non-racist example of the concerns that the vast majority of our Nations population probably share.  The pilot's letter encapsulates all that is fair and just about national pride and protection of one's national culture.  I fear it may be too late here in UK, BUT we too want our country back in the form that attracted all these different cultures to come here in the first place!!  In all our conversations with a wide range of friends and acquaintances we have not met one that disagrees with our own views.

If only we all had the courage of our convictions to pass this on, it is a statement that should be accepted as the heart-felt feelings of someone with honest commendable national pride.

Not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists to date have been Muslims.  Stand up and be counted!

Australian Comment:   Best email I have had in years it needs to be in every paper every day until we get some answers.  We need all be very concerned, note the pattern in Australia is the same for the other countries above.  Where are the believers of Islam in our beloved country standing up and being counted in all these issues?

I have not seen one!

Let us take a stand before it is too late. We cannot and must not delay this any longer. Soon it will be too late and we will start to suffer like the rest of the world. 

THIS IS TOO GOOD TO JUST READ AND DELETE! LET'S SATURATE NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA, UK, EUROPE, USA, CANADA AND THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD WITH THIS ONE!  SEND IT!
I say, “If you are not with us then stay in Your birth country!”

*


----------



## Wysiwyg (4 August 2016)

> We will NEVER allow the attacks of September 11, or any others for that matter, to take away that which is so precious to us -- our rights under the greatest constitution in the world.



It may have been the best in the world in the early (Americas) conquering days but needs a severe upgrade to present day on what has been learned.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 August 2016)

Guy goes in an adult store and asks for an inflatable doll.



Guy behind the counter says, 'Male or female?'



Customer says , 'Female.'



Counter guy asks , 'Black or white?



Customer says , 'White.'



Counter guy asks , 'Christian or Muslim?'



Customer says , 'Hell, what does religion have to do with it?'



Counter guy says , 'The Muslim one blows itself up.'


----------



## luutzu (4 August 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> It may have been the best in the world in the early (Americas) conquering days but needs a severe upgrade to present day on what has been learned.




By the ten or eleven wars it's currently involve in in the ME/Eastern Europe (ignoring the other three continents it hasn't officially declared yet), it's fair to say the US's conquering days aren't over.


----------



## qldfrog (5 August 2016)

another nice joke: 
a guy attacks with a knife a "randomly selected american and israeli/australian group in the middle of London;
Punch line:
 It is just a mental issue
Good one isn't it
Sleep Sleep Sleep well


----------



## luutzu (5 August 2016)

qldfrog said:


> another nice joke:
> a guy attacks with a knife a "randomly selected american and israeli/australian group in the middle of London;
> Punch line:
> It is just a mental issue
> ...




I know right. 

If it's a Muslim or an Arab looney, it must be Islam. If it's a White or Christian looney, it must be his mental case.


Here's another joke.

Islam is so evil because it want to spread and convert all non-believers everywhere, all over the world. Compare that to us Christians who's still living in that little village in Israel and cannot be found anywhere except all over the world.


----------



## Ijustnewit (5 August 2016)

qldfrog said:


> another nice joke:
> a guy attacks with a knife a "randomly selected american and israeli/australian group in the middle of London;
> Punch line:
> It is just a mental issue
> ...




Yes and you had to look really hard to find this story on the ABC yesterday while other media outlets had  this story as one of their headlines. Apparently he was a Norwegian of Somalian descent , and yes it was just a random attack by a mental person. So nothing to worry about


----------



## bellenuit (6 August 2016)

For those who still hold that the wearing of the burka is a consensual thing for most muslim women.


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## noco (6 August 2016)

bellenuit said:


> For those who still hold that the wearing of the burka is a consensual thing for most muslim women.





Lets hope we see more Muslim women doing the same..Maybe, just maybe we are seeing the beginning of a new era.

Is this the beginning of the end of the radical Islamic movement?

The Western women burned the bra 2 or 3 decades ago...Time for all the burkas to be burned.

Maybe we could see some modifications in the Koran....It certainly needs some adjustments if they hope to survive otherwise the Islamic movement may have some rebellion on their hands by the moderates and it would not be before time..

I think the world is starting to wake up but I hope it is not too late.


----------



## nioka (6 August 2016)

noco said:


> Lets hope we see more Muslim women doing the same..Maybe, just maybe we are seeing the beginning of a new era.
> 
> Is this the beginning of the end of the radical Islamic movement?
> 
> ...




So women burned their bra eh! How many go around without one? (in public, not the bedroom).


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## noco (7 August 2016)

nioka said:


> So women burned their bra eh! How many go around without one? (in public, not the bedroom).




Hey, that was a figure of speech 30 years ago and yes I am well aware many still wear the bra particularly the DD ...EE  and the larger ones...Poor buggers.


----------



## Knobby22 (7 August 2016)

A girl who worked  with us wouldn't wear the hijab either. There is a lot of dislike for some of the men they have to deal with. Many do it more to keep peace and fear.


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## qldfrog (7 August 2016)

Just because it happens so often, we should nevertheless not forget:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/belgium-police-stabbing-female-officer-8574786
Hadith 9:4 "Wherever you find infidels kill them; for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."


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## noco (9 August 2016)

This is what I have been saying for some 6 years now and I was ridiculed for dare mentioning the infiltration of the West by Muslims.....I was also criticized for suggesting the Islamic movement wanted world domination.

Well, Geert Wilders has echoed those words.

Do we want it to happen here?...You can bet your A$$ we don't.......So what are we going top do about it?

I trust more people here in Aus. will start to take notice of Pauline Hanson and Sonia Kruger and get Australia back without suffering the disaster now facing Europe.


*Geert Wilders is a Dutch Member of Parliament 
In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: "Who lost Europe?" 

Here is the speech of Geert Wilders, Chairman, Party for Freedom, the Netherlands, at the Four Seasons, New York, introducing an  Alliance of Patriots and announcing the Facing Jihad Conference in Jerusalem. 

The Lights are Going Out All Over Europe 
Dear Friends, 
Thank you very much for inviting me.  I come to America with a mission.  All is not well in the old world.  There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic.  

We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe.  This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe  itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the  West.  The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe. 

First I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe. Then, I will say a few things about Islam.  To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem.   The Europe you know is changing. 

You have probably seen the landmarks. But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world. It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.   

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen. And if they are, they might regret it. This goes for the police as well. It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless 
tents, with baby strollers and a group of children. Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead. With mosques on many street corners. The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are 
Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe. These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe, street by street, neighborhood by  neighborhood, city by city.    
There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe With larger congregations than there  are in churches. And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region.  Clearly, the signal is: we rule.   

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam, Marseilles and  Malmo in Sweden. In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim. Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods.  Mohammad is the most popular name 
among boys in many cities.   

In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims.   

Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils. In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims. Non-Muslim women routinely hear '*****, *****'. Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin.

In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims,including Voltaire and  Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin. The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity.   

In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves. Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels, because he was drinking during the Ramadan.   

Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II.  French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya, Israel.  I could go on forever with stories like this. Stories about Islamization.   

A total of fifty-four million Muslims now live in Europe. San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now.  Bernhardt Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.   

Now these are just numbers.  And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate. But there are few signs of that. The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France. One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks.  The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate.  Muslims demand what they call 'respect'.  And this is how we give them respect.  We have Muslim official state holidays.  
The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority. 

We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey.  

Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots. Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus.  I call the perpetrators "settlers". Because that is what they are.  They do not come to integrate into our societies; they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al 
Islam. Therefore, they are settlers. 
Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native  people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries.  Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored.   

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet. His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized.  Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Gandhi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem. 
But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several  marriages - at the same time. Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed. Mohammad himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza.  If it is good for Islam, it is good. If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.   

Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion.  Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins. But in its essence Islam is a political ideology. It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person. Islam wants to dictate every aspect 
of life.  Islam means 'submission'.   Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is Sharia.  If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.   

Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world', and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran. The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor.  I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times.  I support Israel.  First, because it is the Jewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz.  Second. because it is democracy.  And third, because Israel is our first line of defense.   

This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance.  Israel is facing the front lines of jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan, Lebanon, and Aceh in Indonesia.  Israel is simply in the 
way.  The same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.   

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel.  It is a war against the West.  It is jihad. Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us.  If there would have been no Israel, Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest.  Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night,   parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.   

Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities.  But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West.  It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, 
and accept our values.  On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam.  They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed.  The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning. It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination. If they can get Israel, they can get everything.  So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islam as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'.  In my country, the Netherlands, 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II.  And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat.  Yet there is a greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing.  The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine.  An Islamic Europe means Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for America - as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs.  With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone to preserve the 
heritage of Rome, Athens and Jerusalem. 

Dear friends, Liberty is the most precious of gifts.  My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives.  All throughout Europe, 
American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish.  My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians.  We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe's children in the same  state in which it 
was offered to us.  We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams.  Future generations would never forgive us.  We cannot squander our liberties.  We simply do not have the right to do so.  
We have to take the necessary action now to stop this Islamic stupidity from destroying the free world that we know.   
*


----------



## Tisme (9 August 2016)

noco said:


> This is what I have been saying for some 6 years now and I was ridiculed for dare mentioning the infiltration of the West by Muslims.....I was also criticized for suggesting the Islamic movement wanted world domination.




Who ridiculed and criticised you Noco?

The Godawful truth of barbarism is the reason why good men whisper in the company of other men and women the same. It is transparent enough these people are stunted in their maturity of self awareness because of the herd mentality forced upon them. That overt immaturity and feigned helplessness draws dogooders like moths to flames seeking to shelter them from the rigours of growing up like the must needs of westerners.

To my mind it's the people who think we can integrate primitives into modern societies who are the Trojan Horses inside our borders. WE have FAILED handling the 2% of the population who lay claim as the first Australians and now we have another 2% who require assimilation for the national best and WE will fail at that too because we won't hurt feelings and frankly we are too scared to enforce the law as required and as intended.


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## MrBurns (9 August 2016)

I didn't even watch the video - I noticed the cheese slices I by have the Halal certification logo, check things you buy I think this is now wide spread.

I don't like the look of this one bit.

http://www.halalchoices.com.au/what_is_halal.html


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## noco (9 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> Who ridiculed and criticised you Noco?
> 
> The Godawful truth of barbarism is the reason why good men whisper in the company of other men and women the same. It is transparent enough these people are stunted in their maturity of self awareness because of the herd mentality forced upon them. That overt immaturity and feigned helplessness draws dogooders like moths to flames seeking to shelter them from the rigours of growing up like the must needs of westerners.
> 
> To my mind it's the people who think we can integrate primitives into modern societies who are the Trojan Horses inside our borders. WE have FAILED handling the 2% of the population who lay claim as the first Australians and now we have another 2% who require assimilation for the national best and WE will fail at that too because we won't hurt feelings and frankly we are too scared to enforce the law as required and as intended.




I would refer you various posts Asylum Immigrants : Green light.

Posts #14 and 48.

This one from Islam, a philosophy in decline. 

Re: The Australian Muslim Party
Quote Originally Posted by So_Cynical  View Post
Well at least the Muslims that feel disenfranchised will get to vent politically, overall i reckon this is a good idea, who knows they may even end up with a few pollys.
Then they will want to take the next step and introduce Sharia law....No thanks.

*Some people just don't get it......I have said it before and I will say it again, they are infiltrating the Western World whether they are moderates of radicals for the simple fact of world domination and one of their aims is to destroy the Western World economy.

I was even reprimanded by the ASF moderators some years ago for using the term "INFILTRATION"....I was even accused of being racist....Well, call me what you like but I say lets restore Australia and rid this element of terror out of our country,,...If they want to come to Australia, become an Australian, speak English, accept our way of life and work for a ferkin living instead of bludgeoning off the tax payers generous welfare system.

They have been trying for 1400 years and have failed and they will fail again.Re: The Australian Muslim Party
Quote Originally Posted by So_Cynical  View Post
Well at least the Muslims that feel disenfranchised will get to vent politically, overall i reckon this is a good idea, who knows they may even end up with a few pollys.
Then they will want to take the next step and introduce Sharia law....No thanks.*


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## CanOz (16 August 2016)

You see, Islam is not all evil...

The moderate Imam: On a mission to unite France while dodging IS assassins

This story should be mainstream news!


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## qldfrog (17 August 2016)

CanOz said:


> You see, Islam is not all evil...
> 
> The moderate Imam: On a mission to unite France while dodging IS assassins
> 
> This story should be mainstream news!




Nice, a great aspiration and very courageous/suicidal position: he tries to separate religion and law within islam: modernising Islam which is great but faced with deadly opposition and in no way mainstream or even fringe minority among clerics;
may not the tree hide the forest;
But show that if the west was less blinded in its PC and more aware of the problem, there are possibly some solutions we could support/help. a ray of hope.
During that time, and for a man like him, Qatar. SA are still funding mosks, opening  fundamentalism schools the world over and sending future imans into its brain washing schools...


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## Tisme (24 August 2016)

Was the movie franchise Gremlins a metaphor for Islam.

Muslims are the mogwai.

The three rules to keep them as a happy part of the community are probably metaphors too?


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## Ijustnewit (24 August 2016)

Breaking News ...Home Hill , South of Townsville NQ. 

A  British woman is dead and her British partner in hospital with stab wounds in an altercation with a French national shouting Allah during the attack .
Probably not another terrorist attack , just another mental person . Story below.

http://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/c...l/news-story/1213b35fba54c9f0f94ab7b0466b6f34


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## sr20de (24 August 2016)

Ijustnewit said:


> Breaking News ...Home Hill , South of Townsville NQ.
> 
> A  British woman is dead and her British partner in hospital with stab wounds in an altercation with a French national shouting Allah during the attack .
> Probably not another terrorist attack , just another mental person . Story below.
> ...




Is this because Isalm is a religion of peace and the media does not what to tell the truth to the people, given their script they have to read from?

This is an evil event, and a worrying trend in my opinion right here in Australia.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...n-stabs-uk-woman-dog-death-australian-hostel/

http://www.infowars.com/allah-hu-ak...-woman-and-dog-to-death-in-australian-hostel/


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## sr20de (24 August 2016)

Insanity as a defence should not be allowed when such evil acts are committed.


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## luutzu (24 August 2016)

sr20de said:


> Is this because Isalm is a religion of peace and the media does not what to tell the truth to the people, given their script they have to read from?
> 
> This is an evil event, and a worrying trend in my opinion right here in Australia.
> 
> ...






Come on man... a bunch of murder and mayhem are committed every day, by people of every social class, skin colour and religious and political affiliation. 

Let's not get all righteous when the perpetrator look and sound like us or like them.

So if the murderer is a Muslim and we say all Muslims are murderers... should the same rules apply when another murderer share the same religion and skin tone as us?

Anywho...


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## DB008 (25 August 2016)

Ijustnewit said:


> Breaking News ...Home Hill , South of Townsville NQ.
> 
> A  British woman is dead and her British partner in hospital with stab wounds in an altercation with a French national shouting Allah during the attack .
> Probably not another terrorist attack , just another mental person . Story below.
> ...




Sky News is reporting this as a obsession/fatal attraction.....

Not terror related at all.

No mention of 'Allah Akbar' shouting.

Self censoring???


----------



## DB008 (25 August 2016)

Following the stabbing murder in Cairns yesterday, Bob Katter has called for a ban on immigrants from the M.E. and Africa

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-...er-calls-for-middle-east-immigration-ban.html


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## SirRumpole (25 August 2016)

DB008 said:


> Following the stabbing murder in Cairns yesterday, Bob Katter has called for a ban on immigrants from the M.E. and Africa
> 
> http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-...er-calls-for-middle-east-immigration-ban.html




Isn't the stabber a Frenchman ?

In any case it hasn't been established that he is a radical.


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## qldfrog (25 August 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Isn't the stabber a Frenchman ?
> 
> In any case it hasn't been established that he is a radical.



The frenchman or the arab frenchman to reuse the "african american" usage word to word;
another example of a mental case not a radical, just a mental/cultural thing: you as non muslim are sh*t, she is a slut (travelling alone, no brother to chaperon, modelling) and all the consequences "you" deserve in his rightful mind: 
We'll have to learnt to live with a lot of these mental illnesses if we want to call a religion that
perfectly fitted to the thread title


----------



## luutzu (25 August 2016)

DB008 said:


> Sky News is reporting this as a obsession/fatal attraction.....
> 
> Not terror related at all.
> 
> ...




How, or why, would the media be "self censoring"?

The head honchos at those outlets know who butter their bread; who pays the bills and who provide "inside" and unnamed and high-placed sources for "information" and scoups.

So any murder and killings will start with "is it Islamic; is it terrorism". If the guilty party is Arabic, must be terrorism, but might not be, we ain't sure - just putting it out there.

If they're of another race... well it's just some psycho.

Why all these?

First, it sells viewership and eyeballs - more attention, more money;

Second, it's an indirect way to scare the public into possibilities of terrorist attacks anywhere, at any time.

Why scare the public?

Because the public are weak and idiotic and would never allow the killing of innocent people who does them no harm.

So you better scare them out of their wits; make them jumpy... then you and your army get all the funding you ever need, with no opposition, to carry out your imperial grand strategy - saving the world, civilising the savages, nation-building... and if there's an attack against "us" somewhere, then it's revenge too.

Then along the way and after all the effort to bring peace to the world, they might discover that those countries happen to have oil and good strategic location for a military base or five.

Then those who build weapons, provide contractors, supply the maintenance... they too might discover that war is very profitable.. and heck, might even buy a few hundred millions in ads on them news media.


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## luutzu (25 August 2016)

qldfrog said:


> The frenchman or the arab frenchman to reuse the "african american" usage word to word;
> another example of a mental case not a radical, just a mental/cultural thing: you as non muslim are sh*t, she is a slut (travelling alone, no brother to chaperon, modelling) and all the consequences "you" deserve in his rightful mind:
> We'll have to learnt to live with a lot of these mental illnesses if we want to call a religion that
> perfectly fitted to the thread title




Scanned the headline and it said she was in his room, they knew each other? Maybe the farker couldn't take her rejection after his advances?

Anyway... so the next time some French people, the White [olive?] French criminal does something horrible... we'll blame your entire French people and yourself along with it.

Or only French Australian, Male?


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## superbatman (25 August 2016)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11.
> 
> I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.
> 
> ...












Majority of the peoples from that religion is involved in crimes all over the world, not just terrorism. I believe this religion does not respect the value of other religion (Not even Christianity)


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## Ijustnewit (25 August 2016)

The press have released the French attackers name  , Smail Ayad 29 . Yeah that sounds French .  nothing to see here .


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## luutzu (25 August 2016)

Ijustnewit said:


> The press have released the French attackers name  , Smail Ayad 29 . Yeah that sounds French .  nothing to see here .




I know. If only his name was Guise Colbert Francois ey.

Then we'd be able to just call him a bloody psycho and feel sad for the parents and family of the victim.

Now, we'd have to talk about media conspiracies; the West losing its freedom of speech; Islam is evil or is it not evil if taken in small dosage...


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## Tisme (25 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> I know. If only his name was Guise Colbert Francois ey.
> 
> Then we'd be able to just call him a bloody psycho and feel sad for the parents and family of the victim.
> 
> Now, we'd have to talk about media conspiracies; the West losing its freedom of speech; Islam is evil or is it not evil if taken in small dosage...




Now you're getting the picture: one is part of an organised religion that encourages, organises and rewards his actions, the other is a lone wolf who operates out of primal urges and usually blind rage.


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## Ijustnewit (25 August 2016)

luutzu said:


> I know. If only his name was Guise Colbert Francois ey.
> 
> Then we'd be able to just call him a bloody psycho and feel sad for the parents and family of the victim.
> 
> Now, we'd have to talk about media conspiracies; the West losing its freedom of speech; Islam is evil or is it not evil if taken in small dosage...




If you prefer to stick your head in the sand and not explore all possible options of why some one would stab an animal and other humans singing out Allahu Akbar that's fine. Of course you will probably take the angle that it was victims and the dogs fault . 
Almost the same thought of thinking that has led to giving young girls and women at German pools being given fake tattoos to wear that say Nein . Just so the poor immigrant men know they are off limits to touching and sexual approaches. 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...man-swimming-pools-help-stop-sex-attacks.html


----------



## luutzu (25 August 2016)

Ijustnewit said:


> If you prefer to stick your head in the sand and not explore all possible options of why some one would stab an animal and other humans singing out Allahu Akbar that's fine. Of course you will probably take the angle that it was victims and the dogs fault .
> Almost the same thought of thinking that has led to giving young girls and women at German pools being given fake tattoos to wear that say Nein . Just so the poor immigrant men know they are off limits to touching and sexual approaches.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...man-swimming-pools-help-stop-sex-attacks.html




Why would anyone ever blame the victims? 
It's pretty messed up to blame victims... that'd be like blaming refugees for wanting to escape warzones for some reason.

Why is it that people always think that all you need to stop criminals is telling to stop?


----------



## CanOz (25 August 2016)

I was pretty moderate until Lu got on his soap box....now I'm a racist conservative!


----------



## luutzu (25 August 2016)

CanOz said:


> I was pretty moderate until Lu got on his soap box....now I'm a racist conservative!




Well, they do say that today's political spectrum has shifted way, way, way Right. 

Go in any direction far enough and I think they call it a revolution.

So you welcome CanOz.


----------



## luutzu (25 August 2016)

Tisme said:


> Now you're getting the picture: one is part of an organised religion that encourages, organises and rewards his actions, the other is a lone wolf who operates out of primal urges and usually blind rage.




So one group need to hear voices - or pray very hard until they hear voices - to carry out some crazy shiet. Another group just carry out crazy shiet whenever they feel like it?

Not too sure who's scarier McGill.

With the religious nuts, there's always hope that you can convince them that God didn't want them to do it; With the latter, they just want to do it and won't be listening.


----------



## Tisme (25 August 2016)

CanOz said:


> I was pretty moderate until Lu got on his soap box....now I'm a racist conservative!




 funny


----------



## bellenuit (1 September 2016)




----------



## CanOz (1 September 2016)

bellenuit said:


>





Evidence of the SICK world that RELIGION had created!!!


----------



## qldfrog (1 September 2016)

CanOz said:


> Evidence of the SICK world that RELIGION had created!!!



RELIGION or Islam?
 I do not believe many christians or even jews refuse to face muslim opponents in sport, or shake their hand in judo or wrestling


----------



## luutzu (1 September 2016)

qldfrog said:


> RELIGION or Islam?
> I do not believe many christians or even jews refuse to face muslim opponents in sport, or shake their hand in judo or wrestling




Yup, if history teaches us anything it is that there are no racist Jews or Christians. Like, never.

That's a bit far fetch... OK. 

If today's news teaches us anything, it's that there are no racist Jews or Christians, at all.

Every other culture and country, any group of people... there are nuts and racists and idiots... except for Christians and Jews. As pure as can be.


----------



## Tisme (1 September 2016)

luutzu said:


> Yup, if history teaches us anything it is that there are no racist XXX or Christians. .




Never a truer word spoken. Racism is a word made to weaponise those who envy whitey.


----------



## luutzu (1 September 2016)

Tisme said:


> Never a truer word spoken. Racism is a word made to weaponise those who envy whitey.




Yea I know. Whiteys are the meekest of the meeks. Always going out there freeing people; getting them to become more civilised; teaching them how to farm sugar canes, cotton; housing people, feeding them, letting them live rent free on plantations while they learn agriculture; always ridding people off their language and cultures so it's easier that we're on the same page about whose God's the real deal and whose are just fairy tales.

It's funny but I have seen lectures by the idiot god of capitalist - Milton Friedman - saying that colonisation is good for the colonised. It's never beneficial for the mother country. He said it with a straight face too.


----------



## Tisme (2 September 2016)

luutzu said:


> Yea I know. Whiteys are the meekest of the meeks. Always going out there freeing people; getting them to become more civilised; teaching them how to farm sugar canes, cotton; housing people, feeding them, letting them live rent free on plantations while they learn agriculture; always ridding people off their language and cultures so it's easier that we're on the same page about whose God's the real deal and whose are just fairy tales.
> 
> It's funny but I have seen lectures by the idiot god of capitalist - Milton Friedman - saying that colonisation is good for the colonised. It's never beneficial for the mother country. He said it with a straight face too.




Never confuse whities with those imposters with slightly tallow skin... they don't count. They themselves felt the yolk of colonialism at the hands of the Greeks and Romans, who themselves were over lorded by tribes like the Sumerians. This has contributed to the rich tapestry of civilisation that now finds its crowning glory down on Australian beaches soaking in the rays with a tinnie in one hand and a bird in the other.


----------



## luutzu (2 September 2016)

Tisme said:


> Never confuse whities with those imposters with slightly tallow skin... they don't count. They themselves felt the yolk of colonialism at the hands of the Greeks and Romans, who themselves were over lorded by tribes like the Sumerians. This has contributed to the rich tapestry of civilisation that now finds its crowning glory down on Australian beaches soaking in the rays with a tinnie in one hand and a bird in the other.




Oh yea, forgot. Real Whites need a few freckles on them pink and whites. None of those olivey, I-can-stand-in-the-sun-awhile type. 

Yea, Western civilisation is one big, long series of Bruce Lee movies. "You have [colonised] my family; and you have offended the Shaolin Temple. Watar!".

Maybe we all ought to skip the action bits and head down the beaches. Except for Muslim women wearing the burkini, of course.


----------



## Tisme (2 September 2016)

luutzu said:


> Oh yea, forgot. Real Whites need a few freckles on them pink and whites. None of those olivey, I-can-stand-in-the-sun-awhile type.
> 
> Yea, Western civilisation is one big, long series of Bruce Lee movies. "You have [colonised] my family; and you have offended the Shaolin Temple. Watar!".
> 
> Maybe we all ought to skip the action bits and head down the beaches. Except for Muslim women wearing the burkini, of course.




You have learned much young padawan. Your training is almost complete.

I was just thinking that the Netflix two season serial "Marco Polo" might be a good watch for you. It's absolute rubbish historically, but the debauchery, naked women and bloodlust must be real because it's about Asian empire. Very well made and so expensive they can't afford to make a third season.


----------



## luutzu (3 September 2016)

Tisme said:


> You have learned much young padawan. Your training is almost complete.
> 
> I was just thinking that the Netflix two season serial "Marco Polo" might be a good watch for you. It's absolute rubbish historically, but the debauchery, naked women and bloodlust must be real because it's about Asian empire. Very well made and so expensive they can't afford to make a third season.




A bit like Rome then - two seasons and it collapsed.

Thanks but I like my history series to be as historically accurate as possible. None of these history-based fantasies where the only thing they got right are the characters name. So will save the sex, naked women and debauchery for Games of Thones  

The Comrades in China used to make very good historical dramas. Though they've copied our Western junk and popularise it way too much lately - history as it happened are much more interesting than the fluff any writers can come up with, so stick to it! That and they now get the North VNese comrades to dub or narrate over the Mandarin.

But yea, Romance of the Three Kingdoms; Heroes of the Marsh; Spring and Autumn; Warring States... viewers can get entertained and enlightened at the same time from those. A bit like the BBC's I, Claudius and the recent HBO's John Adams.


----------



## qldfrog (18 September 2016)

Are we getting a bit blase?http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/us-mall-attacker-shot-dead-after-knife-rampage-20160918-grj179.html
and then obviouslyhttp://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-18/explosion-in-chelsea-new-york-injures-people/7855924
but the good thing is that even before knowing anything  about it, the relevant authorities talk about  "a criminal act not immediately linked to any terror organisation."
Sleep sleep well, and during that time, the west keeps doing the same mistakes again and again, even involving us in this mess:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-18/australian-jets-involved-in-botched-air-strike-on-syrian-army/7855610


----------



## qldfrog (20 September 2016)

Surprise, surprise: another Christian fanatic NOT:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/five-suspected-explosive-devices-found-near-new-jersey-station-20160919-grjs9u.html


----------



## Tisme (20 September 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Surprise, surprise: another Christian fanatic NOT:
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/five-suspected-explosive-devices-found-near-new-jersey-station-20160919-grjs9u.html





It's interesting how Malcolm is beaming messages into our lounge rooms, whilst he is in New York,to go about our daily business as usual, as some kind of act of valedictory defiance. The implied message is by ignoring the disease, the symptoms will go away.  

Most of us only think about the problem after an event anyway so I'm not sure why Mal feels it is necessary to emphasise his cunning revamped cold war plan.


----------



## DB008 (20 September 2016)

*Islamic State supporter behind Minnesota stabbings: Amaq​*


> An Islamic State supporter carried out the stabbing attack that wounded at least eight people at a mall in the U.S. state of Minnesota on Saturday, the militant group's Amaq news agency said.
> 
> "The executor of the stabbing attacks in Minnesota yesterday was a soldier of the Islamic State and carried out the operation in response to calls to target the citizens of countries belonging to the crusader coalition," Amaq said in a statement.
> 
> ...





http://www.reuters.com/article/us-minnesota-mall-stabbings-islamic-stat-idUSKCN11O0MF?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social​


----------



## luutzu (20 September 2016)

A question: How do you guys define "evil"?

Is evil the act, and plan or intent to, kill people? 

Is evil an organised, methodical, conscious sets of actions design to slaughter a whole bunch of people? Say, genocidal acts like the gas chambers, concentration camps, starvation through withholding or destroying food supplies.


I'm asking 'cause by the look of it, it seems "evil" is only what other people do. I mean, we seem to be on top of current events and all, yet somehow the death of some 5 million (give or take a mil) over the past 16 years... prfft... that's just good work by noble blood?


----------



## SirRumpole (20 September 2016)

luutzu said:


> I'm asking 'cause by the look of it, it seems "evil" is only what other people do. I mean, we seem to be on top of current events and all, yet somehow the death of some 5 million (give or take a mil) over the past 16 years... prfft... that's just good work by noble blood?




Skullduggery all round, eg weapons of mass destruction not. I don't consider the West's involvement in the Middle East to be wrapped in roses, but the reality is that the "game" is democracy v dictatorship, even if some of the democrats aren't particularly nice people (eg Israel).

It's a global battle and if the West isn't in the ME, Russia will be (and they got their ares kicked in Afghanistan long before we did). It's a continuation of a Cold War which has never really ended since the West and USSR ganged up to throw Hitler out.

Now we have China sticking it's nose in, so tensions are going to be increased again in a different theatre, not to mention North Korea which could end up under a mushroom cloud if it goes too far.

You can blame as many people as you like and you will be right 50% of the time, but the ideological struggle will go on, whether we like it or not.


----------



## qldfrog (20 September 2016)

a direct result of the imperialistic bombing by the west of the ME: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-20/tsumani-of-young-girls-forced-to-marry-overseas-nsw-says/7860670


----------



## luutzu (21 September 2016)

qldfrog said:


> a direct result of the imperialistic bombing by the west of the ME: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-20/tsumani-of-young-girls-forced-to-marry-overseas-nsw-says/7860670




I scanned thru the article... apparently the president of Muslims Australia says:



> "I know we have had a campaign for a long time to educate people that one of the conditions for a marriage to be valid under Islamic teachings is consent," Mr Trad said.
> 
> "For anybody to force a young lady or a young man into a marriage against their will is wrong."




So maybe it's not a Muslim thing... maybe there are backward Muslims.

I think you're a smart man Qldfrog... maybe a bit of a history refresher? Try YouTube or maybe Netflix.


----------



## luutzu (21 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Skullduggery all round, eg weapons of mass destruction not. I don't consider the West's involvement in the Middle East to be wrapped in roses, but the reality is that the "game" is democracy v dictatorship, even if some of the democrats aren't particularly nice people (eg Israel).
> 
> It's a global battle and if the West isn't in the ME, Russia will be (and they got their ares kicked in Afghanistan long before we did). It's a continuation of a Cold War which has never really ended since the West and USSR ganged up to throw Hitler out.
> 
> ...




We have a democracy in the West? 

Maybe we used to have it. It's getting more and more like the kind of democracy China and VN is running. You know, the higher powers up top decide who the plebs can vote for... and whoever is voted in will just tow the line.

There are some minor differences... like it's a lot harder for them to make peaceful critics disappear. That's very important for some people I know 

I don't think any war was ever fought for ideologies. Maybe civil wars broke out over ethnic and ideological grounds, but once the revolution is over and the rebels win and form gov't - they will quickly go about cleaning up their own revolutionaries and establish themselves as the new masters. Power corrupts and what not.

War in the ME is not over ideologies of the democratic kind. Count the kind of states we're "allied" with - they're all theocratic kingdoms or dictatorships. The kind of set up you'd want if imperialism is your game.

Israel isn't really a democracy. It has elections and stuff, but so does Iran. Israel want to be known as the Jewish State. That right there rule it against being a democratic country. More of a theocratic one with God and wars constantly on its minds.


----

China... you have to give it to them though. The commies just took over people's territories and massive amount of natural resources and strategic geographies - and they hardly kill anyone but a few coral reefs. I think maybe a total of 20 people have been killed since the 1970s when they first take the paracels from VN during the VN War.

It would be very hard for any gov't to convince its people to start a war with China over uninhabited distant islets. People just wouldn't be upset long enough over places they never set foot on to want to fight for.


----------



## qldfrog (21 September 2016)

Some people waking up at last?
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/half-of-all-australians-want-to-ban-muslim-immigration-poll-20160920-grkufa.html
The next debate should be do we need ANY immigration at all...


----------



## Ves (21 September 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Some people waking up at last?
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/half-of-all-australians-want-to-ban-muslim-immigration-poll-20160920-grkufa.html
> The next debate should be do we need ANY immigration at all...



Sure.

And why not make it retrospective.

Oh wait...


----------



## SirRumpole (21 September 2016)

qldfrog said:


> S
> The next debate should be do we need ANY immigration at all...




Technological change is taking away a lot of the jobs that migrants used to do. No more TCF with people sewing away , no more car industry with people putting nuts on bolts, greatly reduced demand for farm workers apart from seasonal pickers, so where are the jobs coming from ? They are going to China and India, so no need for migration except for niche skills that we don't produce or are too expensive here.


----------



## luutzu (21 September 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Some people waking up at last?
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/half-of-all-australians-want-to-ban-muslim-immigration-poll-20160920-grkufa.html
> The next debate should be do we need ANY immigration at all...




Didn't know you were Aborigines man.


----------



## dutchie (22 September 2016)

luutzu said:


> Didn't know you were Aborigines man.




Aborigines migrated here too.


----------



## Tisme (22 September 2016)

dutchie said:


> Aborigines migrated here too.




Apparently they left Africa 72k years ago according to a genome study:



> It reveals that Papuan and Aboriginal ancestors left Africa around 72,000 years ago and then split from the main group around 58,000 years ago.
> 
> They reached the supercontinent of 'Sahul' that originally united Tasmania, Australia and New Guinea around 50,000 years ago, picking up the DNA of Neanderthals, Denisovans and another extinct hominin along the way.
> 
> Papuans and Aboriginals then split around 37,000 years ago, long before the continents were finally cut off from each other around 8,000 years ago.





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-...ich-history-of-aboriginal-australians/7858376


----------



## noco (22 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Technological change is taking away a lot of the jobs that migrants used to do. No more TCF with people sewing away , no more car industry with people putting nuts on bolts, greatly reduced demand for farm workers apart from seasonal pickers, so where are the jobs coming from ? They are going to China and India, so no need for migration except for niche skills that we don't produce or are too expensive here.




Don't worry Rumpy......Malcolm has got it all under control......Growth up 3.2%....unemployment down to 5.7% and a lot lower to where it was under Labor.

Can't afford to pay semi skilled labour  $80,000 per year to do nuttin...Car industry gone thanks to the unions. 

Get rid of the Greens so we can open up Adami coal mine and a new rail line to the coast plus lots of other projects delayed .....Plenty of jobs available....The Queensland state government just cancelled an $800,000 project in Brisbane to appease their Green coalition friends......Queensland is going backward under Labor.

Oh and BTW, I forgot to mention the $80 billion debt we have in Queensland thanks to Beattie and Bligh......Instead of selling some assets, Labor would prefer to continue paying a huge interest bill....Not very smart IMHO...But then again we all know the past history of Labor's economic management.

Sorry to be  bit off topic.


----------



## Ves (22 September 2016)

noco said:


> Don't worry Rumpy......Malcolm has got it all under control......Growth up 3.2%....*unemployment down to 5.7% and a lot lower to where it was under Labor*.



The bolded bit is factually incorrect.  It's currently higher than at ANY time than it was under the ALP. Go check the figures.


----------



## noco (22 September 2016)

Ves said:


> The bolded bit is factually incorrect.  It's currently higher than at ANY time than it was under the ALP. Go check the figures.




They are not my figures pal...It has been all over the news lately.


----------



## Ves (22 September 2016)

noco said:


> They are not my figures pal...It has been all over the news lately.



Well apparently the figures in the news you have been reading are rubbish.

Why wouldn't you check them against the official source (ABS) given that that is where the current 5.7% comes from?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2016)

We all know that the stats are rubbish anyway. Work one hour a week and you are considered employed. The rate of 'underemployment' (< 35 hours per week)  could be 30% for all we know.


----------



## noco (22 September 2016)

Ves said:


> Well apparently the figures in the news you have been reading are rubbish.
> 
> Why wouldn't you check them against the official source (ABS) given that that is where the current 5.7% comes from?




Actually the ABS figures shows a further decline down to 5.6% in August.

Typical Leftie comment.....when you don't like something that favors the government you have no other answer than to call it "RUBBISH".

:shake:


http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0


----------



## noco (22 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> We all know that the stats are rubbish anyway. Work one hour a week and you are considered employed. The rate of 'underemployment' (< 35 hours per week)  could be 30% for all we know.




I am sure if Labor were in government they would welcome those figures with bells ringing from their propaganda machine the ABC.

Off topic.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2016)

noco said:


> I am sure if Labor were in government they would welcome those figures with bells ringing from their propaganda machine the ABC.




That doesn't make the data any more correct or relevant.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2016)

> Man armed with scissors drags woman from vehicle in Melbourne carjacking
> 
> Posted 18 minutes ago
> Map: Brighton East 3187
> ...




A lot more cases like this are being reported. Maybe Pauline's next statement is "we are being swamped by Africans".


----------



## Ves (22 September 2016)

noco said:


> Actually the ABS figures shows a further decline down to 5.6% in August.
> 
> Typical Leftie comment.....when you don't like something that favors the government you have no other answer than to call it "RUBBISH".
> 
> ...




You said:



> unemployment down to 5.7% and a lot lower to where it was under Labor.




I called it 'rubbish' because it is. It's not a lot lower than where it was under the ALP. That is factually incorrect.

I made no qualitative judgment about the current rate.  You're putting words in my mouth again.  Seriously just man up and admit you made a mistake.


----------



## noco (22 September 2016)

Ves said:


> You said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So when Labor came to power in 2007, unemployment rose from 4 % to 6.2% during their disgraceful 6 years in office and Labor predicted it would go even higher.

So you say it was not lower than it was under Labor....Did you use the same ABS reckoning as used today.

Think you had better go back and do some more research.

This thread is about Islam.

:topic


----------



## grah33 (22 September 2016)

Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?


evil is a strong word. a few things that i have wondered about :


child marriage :  the age limit is quite low.  yet in the western world there is a thing called pedophilia. in other words it's not normal to be attracted to children.  i guess islam doesn't agree with that, even though i'm convinced it's a real condition people have.  so i think the religion goes against natural reasoning and i feel sorry for the children. also, they are just 2 young for intercourse.

stoning of gays/adulterers/apostates (people who leave the religion): this is perceived a good thing and part of sharia, and i think if there was a muslim majority they might desire this.  if you  believe in your religion , it's natural to want to have policies based on it.  seems to me that in the eyes of the islamic  religion slaying 'sinners' is a good thing.  for example, by slaying apostates u deter other muslims from leaving, thus strengthening islam in the world, which is good for the world (devout muslims might think so).  but i think a religion should teach a person to see human dignity in everybody at all times. 

there are instructions in the koran to slay infidels to further islam, while jesus taught "love your enemies" .  

also sex slaves from war...  should not a religion tell you that once the war is over, you do no harm to the prisoners/slaves.


just some thoughts anyway...


----------



## Ves (22 September 2016)

noco said:


> So when Labor came to power in 2007, unemployment rose from 4 % to 6.2% during their disgraceful 6 years in office and Labor predicted it would go even higher.



What month was it 6.2% under the ALP?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2016)

One in two Australians want a ban on Muslim immigration, poll finds

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/half-of-australia-wants-muslim-ban/7865630


----------



## bellenuit (22 September 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> One in two Australians want a ban on Muslim immigration, poll finds
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/half-of-australia-wants-muslim-ban/7865630




_34 per cent of Greens voters also support a ban_

That figure really surprised me. I could understand the 40% Labor, as their constituency is generally working class voters who are in many ways the same constituency that supports Hanson and One Nation. But the Greens are mainly inner city trendies, who would normally have little in common with Hanson's policies, at least when in public discourse.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2016)

bellenuit said:


> _34 per cent of Greens voters also support a ban_
> 
> That figure really surprised me. I could understand the 40% Labor, as their constituency is generally working class voters who are in many ways the same constituency that supports Hanson and One Nation. But the Greens are mainly inner city trendies, who would normally have little in common with Hanson's policies, at least when in public discourse.




The across the board approval is something that's going to be jumped on by Hanson and has the potential to split the major parties. It will be interesting to see if they take the populist route or keep preaching assimilation and multiculturalism


----------



## Tisme (27 September 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guXBTgAxhIw


----------



## Tisme (29 September 2016)

This will be us in a generation after we have given up all our traditions and embraced "all people are equal" stupidity.


----------



## Tisme (29 September 2016)

Bit like Melbourne these days


----------



## Tisme (29 September 2016)

Canadian Senate gets schooled about what we all know, but our leaders refuse to hear:


----------



## noco (29 September 2016)

Tisme said:


> Bit like Melbourne these days





5 or 6 years I posted on this forum on how Muslims were infiltrating the Western world with their aim of World domination.

I was reprimanded by the moderators......Look at what has happened now.


----------



## luutzu (2 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> This will be us in a generation after we have given up all our traditions and embraced "all people are equal" stupidity.





Off your meds again McGee? 
Or just bored?


----------



## luutzu (2 October 2016)

noco said:


> 5 or 6 years I posted on this forum on how Muslims were infiltrating the Western world with their aim of World domination.
> 
> I was reprimanded by the moderators......Look at what has happened now.




Seeing how England is a tiny island where the English used to only picks on the Scots and the Irish... to now being all over the place with English being somewhat of an international language - I'd say some nation and culture are more effective at world domination than others. 

Sure we can't blame or credit all the English speaking people's "achievements" to the original English people, but it's to show that, you know, blaming some race or religion for world conquest when... ahem.

Anyway, again, not excusing warmongers, terrorists and empire builders. But we gotta ask serious questions and put things in perspectives a bit. Blaming an entire people and race, and especially blaming the crimes and evil of a few on other innocent, and desperate, people. Not cool.

I mean, fair enough to ask that our politicians be tough on refugees and them moochers. But also worth asking is why the heck there are so many refugees in the first place. Why are there some 60million+ refugees.

Did our alliance of the willing had anything to do with it? Should we keep doing it? If we must endlessly do all the good work to liberate them from evil dictators, why in the heck are we OK with not liberating the few that managed to escape from dictators and warzones.

Good questions I reckon.

Then there are questions like... why the heck are we turning against poor and desperate people seeking refuge. Have we always been heartless a holes all our lives, or have we been reading too many bs from media personalities, psychopathic politicians and generally war mongering sociopaths.

Are corporations and the uber rich screwing us out of money, making us desperate economically and feeding us bs intellectually that we're so insecure we're starting to hate those running from warzones.


----------



## noco (16 October 2016)

noco said:


> 5 or 6 years I posted on this forum on how Muslims were infiltrating the Western world with their aim of World domination.
> 
> I was reprimanded by the moderators......Look at what has happened now.




Be alarmed...very alarmed as to what is really going on in the Islamic world.

I will probably cop plenty of stick from those who believe Islam is a peaceful loving religion and that there only a few radicals wanting to cause all the trouble...Those radicals are the Islamic army and the number around the world may shock everyone. 

*20 years from now, I will be in Heaven -This was written by a woman born in Egypt as a Muslim.. Make sure you read the paragraph  (in red) toward the end.

Joys of Muslim Women
By Nonie Darwish

In the Muslim faith a Muslim man can marry a child as young as 1 year old and have sexual intimacy with this child. Consummating the marriage by 9.
The dowry is given to the family in exchange for the woman (who becomes his slave) and for the purchase of the private parts of the woman, to use her as a toy.

Even though a woman is abused she can not obtain a divorce..To prove rape, the woman must have (4) male witnesses.
Often after a woman has been raped, she is returned to her family and the family must return the dowry. The family has the right to execute her (an honor killing) to restore the honor of the family. Husbands can beat their wives 'at will' and he does not have to say why he has beaten her.

The husband is permitted to have (4 wives) and a temporary wife for an hour (prostitute) at his discretion.

The Shariah Muslim law controls the private as well as the public life of the woman.

In the Western World ( Canada , Australia , United States and Britain ) Muslim men are starting to demand Shariah Law so the wife can not obtain a divorce and he can have full and complete control of her. It is amazing and alarming how many of our sisters and daughters attending American, Canadian, Universities and British Universities are now marrying Muslim men and s_ubmitting themselves and their children unsuspectingly to the Shariah law.

By passing this on, enlightened Canadian, Australians, American and British women may avoid becoming a slave under Shariah Law.
 Ripping the West in Two.
Author and lecturer Nonie Darwish says the goal of radical Islamists is to impose Shariah law on the world, ripping Western law and liberty in two.

She recently authored the book, Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law. Darwish was born in Cairo and spent her childhood in Egypt and Gaza before immigrating to America in 1978, when she was eight years old. Her father died while leading covert attacks on Israel . He was a high-ranking Egyptian military officer stationed with his family in Gaza .......

When he died, he was considered a "shahid," a martyr for jihad. His posthumous status earned Nonie and her family an elevated position in Muslim society..

But Darwish developed a skeptical eye at an early age. She questioned her own Muslim culture and upbringing.. She converted to Christianity after hearing a Christian preacher on television.
In her latest book, Darwish warns about creeping shariah law - what it is, what it means, and how it is manifested in Islamic countries.

For the West, she says radical Islamists are working to impose sharia on the world. If that happens, Western civilization will be destroyed. Westerners generally assume all religions encourage a respect for the dignity of each individual.. Islamic law (Sharia) teaches that non-Muslims should be subjugated or killed in this world.

Peace and prosperity for one's children is not as important as assuring that Islamic law rules everywhere in the Middle East and eventually in the world.

While Westerners tend to think that all religions encourage some form of the golden rule, Shariah teaches two systems of ethics - one for Muslims and another for non-Muslims. Building on tribal practices of the seventh century, Shariah encourages the side of humanity that wants to take from and subjugate others..

While Westerners tend to think in terms of religious people developing a personal understanding of and relationship with God, Shariah advocates executing people who ask difficult questions that could be interpreted as criticism

It's hard to imagine, that in this day and age, Islamic scholars agree that those who criticize Islam or choose to stop being Muslim should be executed. Sadly, while talk of an Islamic reformation is common and even assumed by many in the West, such murmurings in the Middle East are silenced through intimidation

While Westerners are accustomed to an increase in religious tolerance over time, Darwish explains how petro dollars are being used to grow an extremely intolerant form of political Islam in her native Egypt and elsewhere.

(In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in Canada , Australia , the U.S. And Britain To elect the heads of Government by themselves! Rest assured they will do so... You can look at how they have almost taken over several towns in the USA .. Dearborn Mich. is one and there are others.... Britain has several cities now with Sharia Law controlled zones, totally controlled by Muslims)

I think everyone in Canada , Australia , the U.S. And Great Britain should be required to read this, but with the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it on!
It is too bad that so many are disillusioned with life and Christianity to accept Muslims as peaceful.. Some may be but they have an army that is willing to shed blood in the name of Islam.. The peaceful support the warriors with their finances and own kind of patriotism to their religion.While Canada, Australia, the U.S.A. and Britain are getting rid of Christianity from all public sites and erasing God from the lives of children the Muslims are planning a great jihad on North America, Australia and Britain .........

This is your chance to make a difference...! Pass it on to your email list or at least those you think will listen..
Some of those I'm sending it to WILL NOT!

Put your head back under the covers AND DO NOTHING!




*


----------



## luutzu (16 October 2016)

noco said:


> Be alarmed...very alarmed as to what is really going on in the Islamic world.
> 
> I will probably cop plenty of stick from those who believe Islam is a peaceful loving religion and that there only a few radicals wanting to cause all the trouble...Those radicals are the Islamic army and the number around the world may shock everyone.
> 
> ...





Don't think we're doing nothing noco.

We're all over the place there, liberating and freeing them from savagery; showing them that they ought to live in a free and tolerant country like those of the Christians... then when a few of them managed to cross the seas, walk to the great liberator's border seeking refuge and a taste of freedom and liberty... we tell them to get stuffed. 

Good value we got.


----------



## noco (16 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> Don't think we're doing nothing noco.
> 
> We're all over the place there, liberating and freeing them from savagery; showing them that they ought to live in a free and tolerant country like those of the Christians... then when a few of them managed to cross the seas, walk to the great liberator's border seeking refuge and a taste of freedom and liberty... we tell them to get stuffed.
> 
> Good value we got.




Most of them are economic  refugees but those who are genuine are taken into our country in good faith but they are not prepared to live by our rules and our way of life......If a man in Australia was to married 3 different women he would be charged with bigamy so how do these Muslim men get away with it here in Australia? 

They leave Islamic countries because of the harsh treatment they receive under Islam law but when they settle here they still want live under Islamic rules.....It does not make sense......Is it any wonder that 49% of Australians do not want any more Muslims in our country for various reasons.


----------



## luutzu (17 October 2016)

noco said:


> Most of them are economic  refugees but those who are genuine are taken into our country in good faith but they are not prepared to live by our rules and our way of life......If a man in Australia was to married 3 different women he would be charged with bigamy so how do these Muslim men get away with it here in Australia?
> 
> They leave Islamic countries because of the harsh treatment they receive under Islam law but when they settle here they still want live under Islamic rules.....It does not make sense......Is it any wonder that 49% of Australians do not want any more Muslims in our country for various reasons.




It doesn't make sense for people who's running away from Islamic Laws to then want to live under those same harsh Islamic Laws. They might still attend Mosques and pray to their Allah, but they don't do the crazies that we're all told by our trusted media and "journalist".

Maybe they're running away from those crazies who say that whatever crazies they're doing is "Islamic"... a bit like those crazy Christians burning "witches" and "curing" the sick by whipping them or whatever - all because "God" said that that's how he likes it.


How much sense does it sound for a noble and generous empire to assemble its alliance, flew thousands of miles away, spent billions of dollars a day - all just to liberate and free all of the people of the ME - but then take practically none of them who managed to get out of those warzones.

Let say a house is oppressed and under literal fire. Would the firemen and the rescue team push the occupants back once they managed to run out of the burning building? 

If I'm those who turn my back on refugees, watch them drown as they cross the seas, watch them walk those miles then with any little excuse, turn on them like they're dogs... I wouldn't be so quick to praise my own cultural superiority and high moral value.


I guess the most horrifying thing about these images is the Burqa. Not that our great master refuel, sells arms, permit and help blockade Yemin - causing death and famine.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> It doesn't make sense for people who's running away from Islamic Laws to then want to live under those same harsh Islamic Laws. They might still attend Mosques and pray to their Allah, but they don't do the crazies that we're all told by our trusted media and "journalist".




I think there is plenty of proof that ISIS intended to cause mass migration as the progenitor invasion for a future Islamic world. 

This wave might well seek refuge, but the next and next generations will be less thankful and more demanding of obedience to man made hysteria masquerading as a spiritual light. Unlike us, their culture is inextricably interwoven with a set of rules from a barbarian era, with no excuses for non compliance.


----------



## luutzu (17 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> I think there is plenty of proof that ISIS intended to cause mass migration as the progenitor invasion for a future Islamic world.
> 
> This wave might well seek refuge, but the next and next generations will be less thankful and more demanding of obedience to man made hysteria masquerading as a spiritual light. Unlike us, their culture is inextricably interwoven with a set of rules from a barbarian era, with no excuses for non compliance.




You worry too much McGill.

If the first wave of migrants and refugees don't intend, or have no arms, to clean house, later generations will just adapt to the existing ways of beggaring the poor and giving it away to the rich. You know, peaceful wars of plunder.

On the SMH today, reports showed that some 870,000 Australian children are living in poverty. Their single parent or parents can't afford a house, living from pay cheque to pay cheque, or be on Centrelink because there's little jobs out there... all the while our great Senate and pollies are debating how much tax cut to give to the already rich and corporations they already own; that and how many poorer countries to liberate.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> You worry too much McGill.
> 
> If the first wave of migrants and refugees don't intend, or have no arms, to clean house, later generations will just adapt to the existing ways of beggaring the poor and giving it away to the rich.




Unfortunately that might be true for some, but we already have the insurgency of Islam here with second gens obedient to the cause.


----------



## explod (17 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> Unfortunately that might be true for some, but we already have the insurgency of Islam here with second gens obedient to the cause.




Not sure its nearly the issue that's pumped up.

A lot of propaganda out there to hide issues of substance in my view.

Like the Prime Minister laying wreaths.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2016)

explod said:


> Not sure its nearly the issue that's pumped up.
> 
> A lot of propaganda out there to hide issues of substance in my view.
> 
> Like the Prime Minister laying wreaths.




I don't know either, but I do recall that interview with the youth at Lakemba a few years back, the blokes who repeatedly raped that girl with the blessing of their father, and then we have two youths ready to cut someone's head off last week.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> Don't think we're doing nothing noco.
> 
> We're all over the place there, liberating and freeing them from savagery; showing them that they ought to live in a free and tolerant country like those of the Christians... then when a few of them managed to cross the seas, walk to the great liberator's border seeking refuge and a taste of freedom and liberty... we tell them to get stuffed.
> 
> Good value we got.




A kind of perverted view of how to solve the problem: Steven is us (the good guys) and the poor sod is the bad guys.


----------



## luutzu (17 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> A kind of perverted view of how to solve the problem: Steven is us (the good guys) and the poor sod is the bad guys.





Whatever it is we're doing in the ME, it's not problem solving.

Even if we're to put our re'al politik, imperialist, sausaging-making hat on in analysing it - I just don't see the benefit.


----------



## CanOz (17 October 2016)

Perhaps the name of the thread should be "Is all Islam Inherently Evil?"


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## luutzu (17 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> Unfortunately that might be true for some, but we already have the insurgency of Islam here with second gens obedient to the cause.




Yea I know. Running for political office and taking bribes like a pro, or some Irish. And running corporations, sometime  taking people's lifesavings like their partners at Anchorage capital.


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## Tisme (20 October 2016)

Interesting position


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## luutzu (20 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> View attachment 68483
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting position




I guess they've learnt to not demand for crazy stuff like "leave my oil alone"; "can you guys tell Israel to only take the best half of Palestine and leave the other half for us to at least move around a bit in"...


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## macca (20 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> I guess they've learnt to not demand for crazy stuff like "leave my oil alone"; "can you guys tell Israel to only take the best half of Palestine and leave the other half for us to at least move around a bit in"...




They don't need half of Israel anymore, they have all moved to Europe haven't they ?


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## luutzu (20 October 2016)

macca said:


> They don't need half of Israel anymore, they have all moved to Europe haven't they ?




Only ISIS and Al Qaeda "migrate" to Europe, the Palestinians are blockaded and imprisoned.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (20 October 2016)

I get the feeling the US forces enjoy long, drawn-out battles, lasting many decades if possible.  And it's taken Russia's "stand aside" attitude to jolt them into action in Syria.  Is this correct?  I don't know how it works, but that's my impression.  Seems like they would have more than enough resources to end ISIS very quickly, but they don't actually do it.


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## CanOz (20 October 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I get the feeling the US forces enjoy long, drawn-out battles, lasting many decades if possible.  And it's taken Russia's "stand aside" attitude re:Syria to jolt them into action.  Is this correct?  I don't know how it works, but that's my impression.




Certainly seems that way, i'm sure the families and armed serviced personal don't enjoy this, but the crooked politicians and arms manufacturers would love it.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (20 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> Certainly seems that way, i'm sure the families and armed serviced personal don't enjoy this, but the crooked politicians and arms manufacturers would love it.




I remember watching a documentary on special US services and I was stunned but soldiers seemed to really love the action.  Like a big video game.  If it's fun and engaging you're going to want it to last as long as possible.  Sounds strange but that's the impression I got.  I can't fathom how a country with all the latest fighting technology could not *instantaneously *wipe out the enemy as small and poorly equipped as ISIS.  Something's not right.  People say that ISIS are good at hiding underground, like that's some sort of valid reason for it taking so long!  I don't buy that for a second.

Re: politicians.  Since they're not there on the ground, I think they just believe whatever the generals tell them.  The 'who's on whose side' thing is much more complex than I can understand.  Maybe that's more the issue.


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## luutzu (20 October 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I remember watching a documentary on special US services and I was stunned but soldiers seemed to really love the action.  Like a big video game.  If it's fun and engaging you're going to want it to last as long as possible.  Sounds strange but that's the impression I got.  I can't fathom how a country with all the latest fighting technology could not *instantaneously *wipe out the enemy as small and poorly equipped as ISIS.  Something's not right.  People say that ISIS are good at hiding underground, like that's some sort of valid reason for it taking so long!  I don't buy that for a second.
> 
> Re: politicians.  Since they're not there on the ground, I think they just believe whatever the generals tell them.  The 'who's on whose side' thing is much more complex than I can understand.  Maybe that's more the issue.




We went into Iraq because of WMD. Remember that one?

No WMD, then we stay because we want to make Iraq a democratic country with liberty etc. etc.

Then we're there because of ISIS...


pretty soon our leaders might figured out we're there because of oil and grand strategy, whatever that is.


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## SirRumpole (20 October 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I remember watching a documentary on special US services and I was stunned but soldiers seemed to really love the action.  Like a big video game.  If it's fun and engaging you're going to want it to last as long as possible.




I think there are some people in the armed forces who, if they weren't there would probably be out killing people on the streets; ie psychopaths. And lets face it, they are the sort of people the Army needs, people who will kill without compunction or hesitation. The people who actually stop and think what they are doing would be poor soldiers.


----------



## noco (20 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I think there are some people in the armed forces who, if they weren't there would probably be out killing people on the streets; ie psychopaths. And lets face it, they are the sort of people the Army needs, people who will kill without compunction or hesitation. The people who actually stop and think what they are doing would be poor soldiers.




How can you possibly say or even think such evil of our ADF personal.......My youngest son is an ADF person and I am sure he would be horrified to learn of your derogatory  filthily remarks denigrating  our ADF men and women who are there to protect the likes of you....If we were invaded by a foreign country, you would be the first to be screaming where are our armed forces.

My son served in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I think you should demonstrate some decency and apologize, that is if you have any character left in you.


----------



## luutzu (20 October 2016)

noco said:


> How can you possibly say or even think such evil of our ADF personal.......My youngest son is an ADF person and I am sure he would be horrified to learn of your derogatory  filthily remarks denigrating  our ADF men and women who are there to protect the likes of you....If we were invaded by a foreign country, you would be the first to be screaming where are our armed forces.
> 
> My son served in Afghanistan and Iraq.
> 
> I think you should demonstrate some decency and apologize, that is if you have any character left in you.




He did say "some people" noco.

And it is true. There are three types of people who join the armed forces:

1. Idealist who honestly want to do good for the world and protect their country;
2. People who want to do good but also see it as an opportunity to learn and gain experience and have a job;
3. Psychopaths


----------



## Tisme (20 October 2016)

noco said:


> How can you possibly say or even think such evil of our ADF personal.......My youngest son is an ADF person and I am sure he would be horrified to learn of your derogatory  filthily remarks denigrating  our ADF men and women who are there to protect the likes of you....If we were invaded by a foreign country, you would be the first to be screaming where are our armed forces.
> 
> My son served in Afghanistan and Iraq.
> 
> I think you should demonstrate some decency and apologize, that is if you have any character left in you.






For a fella that spends his time uttering partisan politics, partisan sociology, etc etc you are oddly very quick to lump all armed service personnel into the same pool? Your boy a Swanbourne native?


----------



## noco (20 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> He did say "some people" noco.
> 
> And it is true. There are three types of people who join the armed forces:
> 
> ...




Why do you have to answer for Rumpole?...Isn't he big enough to answer for himself?

An army guy can be converted into a psychopath purely from being exposed to a war zone and could finish up with Post traumatic stress disorder.....It was commonly  know as "BOMB HAPPY" during WW11.....Unfortunately, many ADF personal with that problem often commit suicide....So IMHO 99% of ADF men and women would enter the armed forces in a very sound mind.

For what it is worth to you and Rumpole, I have seen this problem with my own eyes and had two friends who did commit suicide with PTSD...One after WW11 and one in more recent times who returned from Iraq....Both men were married with children....My own son may have been a candidate but he recognized the problem and with specialists help he is now OK....He is still in the ADF after 25 years service. 

I still say Rumpole should apologize for his bad words about the ADF.


----------



## noco (20 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> For a fella that spends his time uttering partisan politics, partisan sociology, etc etc you are oddly very quick to lump all armed service personnel into the same pool? Your boy a Swanbourne native?




Tisme, you here again with your laborious rhetoric...Wake up sonny or girlie before it is too late.


----------



## luutzu (21 October 2016)

noco said:


> Why do you have to answer for Rumpole?...Isn't he big enough to answer for himself?
> 
> An army guy can be converted into a psychopath purely from being exposed to a war zone and could finish up with Post traumatic stress disorder.....It was commonly  know as "BOMB HAPPY" during WW11.....Unfortunately, many ADF personal with that problem often commit suicide....So IMHO 99% of ADF men and women would enter the armed forces in a very sound mind.
> 
> ...




He sure is, just he might be offended that you're offended 

I don't think anyone would call soldiers suffering from what came to be PTSD as "psychos". It's a serious mental health issue so no kidding there.

The psychopath I was referring to are those who enjoy wars and state sanctioned killing. Not the 'normal" soldier who suffered seeing what they see and forcing to do what they do... that and being put in that kind of stressful position, heck, I'd crack in a few minutes.


But yea, there are psychos and sociopath who join the military for other things than just serving the country and protecting it. Like how there are pyro-something who became firefighters.

Not saying there are many, but there are some... most of them tend to be in senior position   Psychos with a Napoleonic complex.


----------



## noco (21 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> He sure is, just he might be offended that you're offended
> 
> I don't think anyone would call soldiers suffering from what came to be PTSD as "psychos". It's a serious mental health issue so no kidding there.
> 
> ...




Where is your evidence to what you are saying and how many or what percentage are you talking about?

You are obviously have no idea ......To see a guy with PTSD would make you cry tears of blood....I have seen it and it is not a pretty sight.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 October 2016)

noco said:


> How can you possibly say or even think such evil of our ADF personal.......My youngest son is an ADF person and I am sure he would be horrified to learn of your derogatory  filthily remarks denigrating  our ADF men and women who are there to protect the likes of you....If we were invaded by a foreign country, you would be the first to be screaming where are our armed forces.
> 
> My son served in Afghanistan and Iraq.
> 
> I think you should demonstrate some decency and apologize, that is if you have any character left in you.




As pointed out I said SOME people. There are psychopaths in business, government the police and what better place for people that like killing than in the armed forces ?

Of course there are also a lot of good people in those organisations. Your outburst just ignores reality that there a likely to be a certain percentage of people who actually enjoy killimg in the armed forces.Get real.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 October 2016)

Those interested may like to read this article by a US Army major.

http://web.archive.org/web/19991008....army.mil/milrev/English/MayJun99/Pierson.htm

And I may add that there seems to be a few psychopaths in command who actually enjoy the opportunity to test out weapons , soldiers, training etc and so will jump at the chance to get involved in battles, from their comfortable offices of course.


----------



## Tisme (21 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Those interested may like to read this article by a US Army major.
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/19991008....army.mil/milrev/English/MayJun99/Pierson.htm
> 
> And I may add that there seems to be a few psychopaths in command who actually enjoy the opportunity to test out weapons , soldiers, training etc and so will jump at the chance to get involved in battles, from their comfortable offices of course.




I watched a doco years ago about the natural born killers and the reliance on the small % in the forces to do the most damage.

This is a response piece from an ex elite forces chappy who takes Pierson to task based on his experiences, albeit confessing Pierson is pretty much right:



> ......Ultimately, I suspect most true aggressive psychopaths drawn to commando units wash out during some point of the selection process, or are kicked out because they either have a hard time getting along with comrades or get caught conducting illegal activity.  Otherwise Pierson’s description of a natural killer is pretty accurate.  To most of us who thrive during our time in a deadly unit, we have just enough ASPD traits to do well, but also enough empathy to flow as a cohesive unit and genuinely care for one another in the event of a casualty.  You could say we have ASPD in all the right places.




http://www.sociopathworld.com/2014/10/psychopathy-in-army.html


----------



## Tisme (21 October 2016)

woof woof

http://freedomsfinalstand.com/musli...lic-violation-of-sharia-and-disrespects-them/




> _In Manchester, pamphlets have been distribute by a group called Public Purity have demanded that Brits do not take their dogs out in public as dogs are considered impure in the Islamic faith.
> 
> The groups message is that British citizens must do certain things that may be considered uncomfortable in order to make its Muslim citizens feel more at home. Why exactly this type of whiny, ultimatum inducing behavior would make citizens of a non-Islamic nation care how its Muslim residents feel is unclear.
> What is clear, however, is that this type of intrusive behavior from Muslim immigrants helps to explain British citizens unwillingness to remain in the European Union._


----------



## CanOz (21 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I think there are some people in the armed forces who, if they weren't there would probably be out killing people on the streets; ie psychopaths. And lets face it, they are the sort of people the Army needs, people who will kill without compunction or hesitation. The people who actually stop and think what they are doing would be poor soldiers.




I don't hold this view. Australian forces, most notably the special forces are among the most well trained and elite forces in the world. I don't think there's allot of room for the mentally ill among thier ranks.


----------



## CanOz (21 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I think there are some people in the armed forces who, if they weren't there would probably be out killing people on the streets; ie psychopaths. And lets face it, they are the sort of people the Army needs, people who will kill without compunction or hesitation. The people who actually stop and think what they are doing would be poor soldiers.






Tisme said:


> woof woof
> 
> http://freedomsfinalstand.com/musli...lic-violation-of-sharia-and-disrespects-them/




It's this type of non sense that would change me from a moderate holding a balanced view to supporting pauline Hanson!


----------



## noco (21 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Those interested may like to read this article by a US Army major.
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/19991008....army.mil/milrev/English/MayJun99/Pierson.htm
> 
> And I may add that there seems to be a few psychopaths in command who actually enjoy the opportunity to test out weapons , soldiers, training etc and so will jump at the chance to get involved in battles, from their comfortable offices of course.




A lot in that article, particularly the first paragraph applies to what I was talking about.

I was in a rifle club during and after WW11 and to remain in the club I had to sign a form committing myself to the allegiance to the king/queen of England that if the war continued or a new conflict arose I would serve in the infantry to kill the enemy where ever it may be and I would not have hesitated to do so.....Does that make me a psychopath?......Of course not......In war you either kill or be killed.....what would your choice be?

Have you heard of one Aussie turning on another Aussie in battle?.......

Army guys are trained to kill as part of their duty and they must follow the line of command....Would you say our SAS soldiers are psychopath because they are highly trained elite men......We currently have an ex SAS in Federal Parliament.

I still say your first post relating to all this is a disgrace to our fighting men and women and an apology is warranted.

BTW....Conscientious objectors who refused to fight for their country were normally sent a white feather in the mail...They were known as pussies.


----------



## Tisme (21 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> It's this type of non sense that would change me from a moderate holding a balanced view to supporting pauline Hanson!




Not if you are a sociopath masquerading as a level head. I have had much of my life dealing with someone who is pathic and I am always amazed at how cleverly he can conceal his wanton behaviours.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> I don't hold this view. Australian forces, most notably the special forces are among the most well trained and elite forces in the world. I don't think there's allot of room for the mentally ill among thier ranks.




Have you had any contact with the military to form this opinion ? I quoted an article from an Army commander who pointed out that such people exist in the armed forces and make the better soldiers in terms of killing the enemy.

I'd certainly like to think that our forces are well trained and professional, and in the main I think that's true, but when it comes to actual battle the ability to kill without remorse is obviously an advantage wouldn't you agree ?

What about the SAS bloke who allegedly shot an unarmed prisoner through the head ? Professional ? That's a matter of opinion.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-...ng-special-forces-conduct-afghanistan/7927420


----------



## luutzu (21 October 2016)

noco said:


> A lot in that article, particularly the first paragraph applies to what I was talking about.
> 
> I was in a rifle club during and after WW11 and to remain in the club I had to sign a form committing myself to the allegiance to the king/queen of England that if the war continued or a new conflict arose I would serve in the infantry to kill the enemy where ever it may be and I would not have hesitated to do so.....Does that make me a psychopath?......Of course not......In war you either kill or be killed.....what would your choice be?
> 
> ...





WW11? Did you just came back from the future?  

Both my grandfathers and uncle were in the armed forces. I knew a few people who were also in the armed forces. They never talk about the war. And when they do, it's about how freakin horrible it is, how they were just lucky to be alive and how their comrades were blown up or suffered and they didn't just because they were a few inches away.

I think soldiers know what and maybe why they're to do what they need to do.. .and some may suffer PTSD, some carried on after the war as normal as they can.

The psychos we're talking about are not the normal soldier, they're the ones that get highs from seeing people blown up or some crazy stuff like that.


And we shouldn't rush to judge those who refuse to fight as "pussies". Sometime it takes a lot more bravery to question your gov't insanity than it is to just follow and do as you're told.

How many politicians would go to the front line or otherwise put their life on the line for any war you care to mention? Not many. Probably none.

But they wouldn't have much trouble sending other people and other kids to go and make that sacrifice.


----------



## Tisme (21 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> WW11? Did you just came back from the future?
> 
> Both my grandfathers and uncle were in the armed forces. I knew a few people who were also in the armed forces. They never talk about the war. And when they do, it's about how freakin horrible it is, how they were just lucky to be alive and how their comrades were blown up or suffered and they didn't just because they were a few inches away.
> 
> ...




Be interesting to see who had active service in actual war theatres and served in parliament. John Gorton is famous as a PM who suffered a smashed in face after his plane crashed in a dogfight, but still went on to fly planes for the cause. There must be others who saw combat.

I remember the old diggers from WW1 marching on Anzac day .... fairly powerful display of national interest in the sacrifice and distaste for war.


----------



## luutzu (21 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> Be interesting to see who had active service in actual war theatres and served in parliament. John Gorton is famous as a PM who suffered a smashed in face after his plane crashed in a dogfight, but still went on to fly planes for the cause. There must be others who saw combat.
> 
> I remember the old diggers from WW1 marching on Anzac day .... fairly powerful display of national interest in the sacrifice and distaste for war.




I think we ought to bring back the draft. When sacrifice for war is so random and distribute more equally like that, most wars will be one of absolute necessity.

The current "voluntary" forces put the burden on one sector of the community - usually the poor. And for those of any political influence, they wouldn't care too much since it will never be their kids that's sent to any war. So war can just be declared and can last as long as there's still profit to be made.


It's a big broad stroke but it doesn't seem like the current generation of politicians know what war is, let alone serve in one from the front line. Quite dangerous to have professional lawyers and managers deciding war and peace.

Take the US... I think it's involved in some 6 additional wars since the declaration of war on Iraq. That 6 excludes the drone strikes it operates all over the ME and Africa... and Obama hasn't even bothered to declare war or ask Congress for permission on any of it.

To take wars so lightly like that might make the leadership complacent.I mean, the US can certainly take on any country, but can it take on all of the countries all at once?


----------



## Tisme (22 October 2016)

luutzu said:


> I think we ought to bring back the draft. When sacrifice for war is so random and distribute more equally like that, most wars will be one of absolute necessity.
> 
> The current "voluntary" forces put the burden on one sector of the community - usually the poor. And for those of any political influence, they wouldn't care too much since it will never be their kids that's sent to any war. So war can just be declared and can last as long as there's still profit to be made.





Apprenticeships were much sought after when the national draft was in place. Of course the Country Party made sure there was a citizen force out for the farm boys. 

Seemed to me that the birthday draft had a lot of Aries who went to the campaigns....must look that up one day.


----------



## qldfrog (28 October 2016)

Warning warning:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-28/driver-dies-after-bus-catches-fire-in-brisbane/7974172
"Superintendent Keogh said a 48-year-old man had been taken into police custody after the attack and while there was* "no apparent motive" he has ruled out a link to terrorism.*"
As soon as I read that last sentence I have alarm bells ringing..This is a sad reflection on my trust in media and so the insert in that thread....
RIP: what an horrible death...


----------



## CanOz (28 October 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Warning warning:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-28/driver-dies-after-bus-catches-fire-in-brisbane/7974172
> "Superintendent Keogh said a 48-year-old man had been taken into police custody after the attack and while there was* "no apparent motive" he has ruled out a link to terrorism.*"
> As soon as I read that last sentence I have alarm bells ringing..This is a sad reflection on my trust in media and so the insert in that thread....
> RIP: what an horrible death...




Yeah, isn't that aweful....i was thinking WTF would make a person do something like that? Hope they throw away that key....

thats 30 minutes from me...what an aweful week its been for QLD.


----------



## Tisme (28 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> Yeah, isn't that aweful....i was thinking WTF would make a person do something like that? Hope they throw away that key....
> 
> thats 30 minutes from me...what an aweful week its been for QLD.




Lots of people from Eritrea live in Moorooka


----------



## CanOz (28 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> Lots of people from Eritrea live in Moorooka




Well hopefully it was not one of them that perpetrated this awful crime, They've got the worst human rights record in the world....so i just found out on Wiki  because i had never heard of the place before....


----------



## SirRumpole (28 October 2016)

No sane person would do that sort of thing, so you can't rule out a jihadist...


----------



## CanOz (28 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> No sane person would do that sort of thing, so you can't rule out a jihadist...





Yup, could be a lone wolf type of thing...perhaps the media and the police are just playing it down for now....


----------



## Ves (28 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> Lots of people from Eritrea live in Moorooka



And plenty of washed-up middle aged white guys laced up on meth and all sorts of other wild concoctions.


----------



## CanOz (28 October 2016)

Ves said:


> And plenty of washed-up middle aged white guys laced up on meth and all sorts of other wild concoctions.




Some of the crap that is getting around now thats made in peoples garages is just horrible....in my day we only dropped acid...lol at least it was naturally occurring...


----------



## Ves (28 October 2016)

CanOz said:


> Some of the crap that is getting around now thats made in peoples garages is just horrible....in my day we only dropped acid...lol at least it was naturally occurring...



I'm fine with a bit of experimentation,  but good luck in this day and age.  Who knows what is mixed in...


----------



## CanOz (28 October 2016)

Ves said:


> I'm fine with a bit of experimentation,  but good luck in this day and age.  Who knows what is mixed in...




Exactly, we certainly didn't have anything that would kill you in one go....scary


----------



## Tisme (28 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> Lots of people from Eritrea live in Moorooka




victim: 





"Manmeet Alisher, a 29-year-old prominent in Brisbane's Indian community."


----------



## qldfrog (28 October 2016)

Ves said:


> And plenty of washed-up middle aged white guys laced up on meth and all sorts of other wild concoctions.



Moorooka is the Africanised part of Brisbane so my brain association: a lot of previous issues with sudanese youth in the past, with horrific behaviour in term of what we are used to (which is not small with our own drunken white trash bashings  on friday nights)
Anyway, was probably a mistake to put this in that thread, I was making a point that when you are told: "terrrorism is excluded" but you have the bomb squad called, it stinks like a covered hush hush as per a lot of french/german past "events"
And it works..sadly... how many australians have heard of any of the previous car rammings into crowd in France before Nice..Not many
Yet Nice was not the first try, previous ones where just officially insane acts...
Anyway, it will be too late for that poor driver
whether caused by a crazy muslim or a crazy white/black/pink or purple.


----------



## qldfrog (28 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> victim:
> 
> View attachment 68601
> 
> ...



RIP


----------



## CanOz (28 October 2016)

RIP Manmeet ....


----------



## SirRumpole (29 October 2016)

I hope this wasn't a case of reverse terrorism...


----------



## qldfrog (29 October 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> I hope this wasn't a case of reverse terrorism...



I do not like the absence of info on the perpetrator: he is obviously guilty and arrested on the spot, yet nothing why?
all we know is:
"A 48-year-old is in police custody."
Should he not have been on the loose, precedents?Is it as said by Sir Rumpole reverse terrorism...Ice addict?


----------



## Tisme (29 October 2016)

> Anthony O’Donoghue, will appear in a Brisbane court at 9am on Saturday. He was pictured leaving hospital on Friday having been treated for injuries.








http://www.news.com.au/national/que...e/news-story/caaf664a9988c1f112ed34cd4a13da76


----------



## qldfrog (29 October 2016)

Tisme said:


> View attachment 68615
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/que...e/news-story/caaf664a9988c1f112ed34cd4a13da76



Thanks Tisme, was oing thru the ABC website, probably not yet up!!
So strange? Why Why Why?


----------



## SirRumpole (29 October 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Thanks Tisme, was oing thru the ABC website, probably not yet up!!
> So strange? Why Why Why?




It could be as simple as the victim once throwing the perp off the bus for being drunk to some sort of racially inspired hatred. Hopefully the truth will come out eventually.


----------



## Wysiwyg (30 October 2016)

This whole Jihad thing inspired by someones thought could be a turning point in the religious meme that binds the Mohammed spell. Basic - basic is the movement away from pain so the natural progression from believers would be away from the violence, hatred and revenge. Revenge so often sought by human to satiate the mind.


----------



## So_Cynical (31 October 2016)

So the bad guy is a middle aged bogan...didn't see that coming.

RIP Manmeet ....


----------



## superbatman (3 November 2016)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11.
> 
> I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.
> 
> ...





Howdy Garpal, Are you still alive? if yes, say thanks to GOD.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 November 2016)

What's going on in Islamic families that is being covered up ?

Why don't we have a Royal Commission into this ?

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/escaping-child-marriage-in-western-sydney/8023798


----------



## noco (15 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> What's going on in Islamic families that is being covered up ?
> 
> Why don't we have a Royal Commission into this ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/escaping-child-marriage-in-western-sydney/8023798




Rumpy, don't go into shock, but on this occasion I have to agree with you.

I think Pauline Hanson is also pushing for one.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> What's going on in Islamic families that is being covered up ?
> 
> Why don't we have a Royal Commission into this ?



They seem to have an urgency to breed as many and as quickly as possible. Perpetuating their archaic and criminal beliefs/practices in Australia.


----------



## noco (24 November 2016)

When will we learn?......How long is it going to take for us to wake up as to what is happening in OZ.

I know many on this forum have no time for Andrew Bolt whether he right or wrong but what he is saying now is so correct. 

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...e/news-story/5648c7caacac991723a30bce4ade6a95


----------



## Wysiwyg (28 November 2016)

"Among The Believers" on SBS shows the children brainwashed by extremist Imams in Pakistan. The children have no other concept of the world bar the one repeatedly drummed into their uneducated mind. Abdul Aziz Ghazi sowing hate in Pakistan. We see these ancient warmongers  try desperately to perpetuate the extreme version of Islam. All in the head. :bad:


----------



## Tisme (28 November 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> "Among The Believers" on SBS shows the children brainwashed by extremist Imams in Pakistan. The children have no other concept of the world bar the one repeatedly drummed into their uneducated mind. Abdul Aziz Ghazi sowing hate in Pakistan. We see these ancient warmongers  try desperately to perpetuate the extreme version of Islam. All in the head. :bad:





The beauty of using religion as the vehicle for domination and power, is that half the work is already done in winning over the 98% who are short on brains and long on gullibility.


----------



## qldfrog (28 November 2016)

Tisme said:


> The beauty of using religion as the vehicle for domination and power, is that half the work is already done in winning over the 98% who are short on brains and long on gullibility.



Especially with islam where islam is  a law, a way of life and an education in one: many so called litterate on this earth have learnt to read and write exclusively the Koran.
With the expected results in term of free mind/ability to think.


----------



## luutzu (28 November 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Especially with islam where islam is  a law, a way of life and an education in one: many so called litterate on this earth have learnt to read and write exclusively the Koran.
> With the expected results in term of free mind/ability to think.




Hard to blame people for desperately hanging onto their religion, praying to their almighty Allah for help when they are being colonised and droned at will. Can't really blame them for hating the enemies who's taking their lives and future livelihood. That and if they don't believe it, their own psychos will deal with them.

What's our excuse for being stupid?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 November 2016)

luutzu said:


> Hard to blame people for desperately hanging onto their religion, praying to their almighty Allah for help when they are being colonised and droned at will. Can't really blame them for hating the enemies who's taking their lives and future livelihood. That and if they don't believe it, their own psychos will deal with them.




Yep, ISIS will save them from the depravity of the West .


----------



## noco (28 November 2016)

luutzu said:


> Hard to blame people for desperately hanging onto their religion, praying to their almighty Allah for help when they are being colonised and droned at will. Can't really blame them for hating the enemies who's taking their lives and future livelihood. That and if they don't believe it, their own psychos will deal with them.
> 
> What's our excuse for being stupid?




Luu, IMHO The problem with Islam in the ME is , there are 3 or more factions who are hell bent on destroying each other due to different interpretations of the Koran and dominance over one another.

The West should never have become involved in trying to promote democracy in dictatorial countries......Iraq worked better under Hussein and Libya worked better under Gaddafi......Those people know only one way of living and that is with the gun.


----------



## luutzu (28 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, ISIS will save them from the depravity of the West .




Noticed how every bad guy are now ISIS?

I doubt those who join ISIS or whatever other terrorist group does so because they hate Coke, McDonalds, bikini and freedom.


----------



## luutzu (28 November 2016)

noco said:


> Luu, IMHO The problem with Islam in the ME is , there are 3 or more factions who are hell bent on destroying each other due to different interpretations of the Koran and dominance over one another.
> 
> The West should never have become involved in trying to promote democracy in dictatorial countries......Iraq worked better under Hussein and Libya worked better under Gaddafi......Those people know only one way of living and that is with the gun.




How many sects and sub-groups are there in Christianity?

Christians never went to war with each other? I think it's the only religion they ever fought against until 1492 when they diversify a bit.

No country ever went to war to liberate another country. They all go to war to either take stuff, or have to because that's what vassal states do when the boss call.

The US wouldn't even care to spend a few bucks so that their own people in their own cities could have clean drinking water. We're serious about them spending billions and trillions to "liberate" and bring democracy to Muslims?

Heck, they don't even have much of a democracy in their own country. Unless you count doing the biddings of corporations being democratic.

Just take a look at the ongoing "riots" against the North Dakota Access Pipeline. Watch what side the Police and the gov't is on; watch whose heads are getting cracked. It ain't the oil tycoons or bankers.


----------



## noco (28 November 2016)

luutzu said:


> How many sects and sub-groups are there in Christianity?
> 
> Christians never went to war with each other? I think it's the only religion they ever fought against until 1492 when they diversify a bit.
> 
> ...




So Luu, if you were given two choices of where you could live, would you choose the ME or the USA?


----------



## luutzu (28 November 2016)

noco said:


> So Luu, if you were given two choices of where you could live, would you choose the ME or the USA?




I'd like to live where the crazies aren't in power. And if in power, can't take people's live or freedom whenever they feel like it. So I guess if I have to it'd be the US since at least there they'll have to bring people before the court and I might be able to afford a lawyer.

Don't get me wrong, the US, and Western civilisation, has a heck of a lot going for it. But the good and commendable things it has aren't what we're reading in the press. 

The West aren't great and noble because of its "Christian values". Heck, compare the times when the Christian religious nuts were all over the political map - it weren't so nice for the coloured folks, not so nice for the women of any colour, nor the homosexuals.. .and forget about the natives.

And it's not prosperous and innovative because of "capitalism". Count how many lives have been destroyed since Reagan and Thatcher and their neocons unleash that freedom for corporations to do whatever it is they wanted. Jobs are gone, the environment is going down the tube, workers are exploited and spit out when they cost a few bucks more than a graduate, wages are squeezed while profit and managerial pay skyrockets and the gov't can't tax much of it... Then there's the economic and financial crashes every few years where taxpayers money have to be use to bail out the "capitalists".


----------



## Tisme (28 November 2016)

luutzu said:


> Hard to blame people for desperately hanging onto their religion, praying to their almighty .... for help when they are being colonised and droned at will. Can't really blame them for hating the enemies who's taking their lives and future livelihood. That and if they don't believe it, their own psychos will deal with them.
> 
> What's our excuse for being stupid?




I don't know, the UK and USA seemed to get over it pretty quickly and move on to be become dominant world powers.

The Scots even voted to stay with their English bosses


----------



## Tisme (28 November 2016)

noco said:


> So Luu, if you were given two choices of where you could live, would you choose the ME or the USA?




I'm supposing you haven't stayed in the USA to see how they really live? Very similar to SE Asia where they work 6 or 7 days a week for just enough to feed and clothe themselves. It sure as s4it ain't like on the movies and telly shows.

There just isn't anywhere that has the same endless borders and means as Australia and we should fight any politics that wants to make us like the USA and SE Asia in the name of competition and progress.


----------



## luutzu (28 November 2016)

Tisme said:


> I don't know, the UK and USA seemed to get over it pretty quickly and move on to be become dominant world powers.
> 
> The Scots even voted to stay with their English bosses




Practise makes perfect, I guess.

Though I'm not sure about the moving on bit. Weren't Nazi Germany white and somewhat Christian? How about the godless Soviets to the East?

You know that if Western planners are any good, they could literally establish a world that are both prosperous, peaceful and where their culture and institutions will remain dominant and unchallenged til the end of time.

How many times in the history of the world could any empire ever seriously be in a position to do that, the world over? None.

But instead, their policies have resulted in rising domestic unrest; instability and military overreach abroad in the provinces; and rising challenge from at least two potential peer competitor.

Then there's the real threat from Mother Nature and her pandemics - all because of how industries and food production are managed.


----------



## noco (28 November 2016)

Tisme said:


> I'm supposing you haven't stayed in the USA to see how they really live? Very similar to SE Asia where they work 6 or 7 days a week for just enough to feed and clothe themselves. It sure as s4it ain't like on the movies and telly shows.
> 
> There just isn't anywhere that has the same endless borders and means as Australia and we should fight any politics that wants to make us like the USA and SE Asia in the name of competition and progress.




Your supposing is wrong again.

I have been to the USA as well as many other parts of the World including many parts of SE Asia....That is their way of living.

You go to a restaurant in the US and you get a bill.....On that bill you are asked whether you want to pay 15 or 20% tips....That is how many workers receive addition pay for their efforts....It is similar in Canada.


----------



## Wysiwyg (28 November 2016)

Tisme said:


> The beauty of using religion as the vehicle for domination and power, is that half the work is already done in winning over the 98% who are short on brains and long on gullibility.



That leaves Pakistan the next Isis style hot bed for extremist activity. Interestingly the Paki. gov. is reluctant to take on the extremist hate mongers who wish to implement sharia law in Pakistan. Letting the cancer fester is not good for the greater free world. They don't go away and defend their cause with a Kalashnikov. Allah said it's okay.


----------



## Tisme (28 November 2016)

noco said:


> Your supposing is wrong again.
> 
> I have been to the USA as well as many other parts of the World including many parts of SE Asia....That is their way of living.
> 
> You go to a restaurant in the US and you get a bill.....On that bill you are asked whether you want to pay 15 or 20% tips....That is how many workers receive addition pay for their efforts....It is similar in Canada.




And your point is??? Or are you just trolling again?


----------



## noco (28 November 2016)

Tisme said:


> And your point is??? Or are you just trolling again?




My point is your statement of supposition that I had not been in the USA .. I was there in 2012 OK...Are you satisfied now or do you need some proof?


----------



## luutzu (28 November 2016)

noco said:


> My point is your statement of supposition that I had not been in the USA .. I was there in 2012 OK...Are you satisfied now or do you need some proof?




I think Rumpelstiltskin was referring to you not frequenting there enough to really know the people. Can't really know how people do from mere fine dinning and tourisy places.

I mean I've frequent Sydney often enough but I've always only drive to a carpark near where I want to be - which is often the Aquarium or the Museum and fancy places like that. So I have only ever saw a couple of homeless people here and there.

It wasn't until last week that I have to walk a few blocks from Central to York that it's pretty clear a lot of Aussies are getting kicked to the curbs.


----------



## Tisme (28 November 2016)

noco said:


> My point is your statement of supposition that I had not been in the USA .. I was there in 2012 OK...Are you satisfied now or do you need some proof?




 Well I didn't think visiting the USA was of import,my guess was you were trying to draw comparisons between SE Asia and the USA. It was my mistake to find out you were merely making light of travelling to the American nation, not at all trying to disparage the Asian ways.


----------



## noco (28 November 2016)

Tisme said:


> Well I didn't think visiting the USA was of import,my guess was you were trying to draw comparisons between SE Asia and the USA. It was my mistake to find out you were merely making light of travelling to the American nation, not at all trying to disparage the Asian ways.




You just have no idea have you?.....The USA and SE Asia are totally different as I am sure you are aware.

You are just being difficult in your usual manner....Some would say it could be a smart a$$ comment.


----------



## Tisme (29 November 2016)

noco said:


> You just have no idea have you?.....The USA and SE Asia are totally different as I am sure you are aware.
> 
> .




But that's not what you said in any post, you insisted it was about you going to the USA and now you are trolling with a different hook.

Does all over the place like a mad woman's underpants sound appropriate?


----------



## noco (29 November 2016)

Tisme said:


> But that's not what you said in any post, you insisted it was about you going to the USA and now you are trolling with a different hook.
> 
> Does all over the place like a mad woman's underpants sound appropriate?




I don't really know what in the hell you are going on about......It does not make any sense.

Your persistent ridicule will not silence me sport.


----------



## qldfrog (30 November 2016)

And during that time, we do forget about the knife attack in Ohio by a "role model migrants", are not aware of the 5 arrests last week in France of another bunch of terrorists who already had their automatic assault weapns ready, sleep sleep .....


----------



## Tisme (30 November 2016)

noco said:


> I don't really know what in the hell you are going on about......It does not make any sense.
> 
> Your persistent ridicule will not silence me sport.




Oh come on... really? What next a blue face, tartan skirt and "Freeeeedom"


----------



## dutchie (22 December 2016)

Charming religion, charming parents.

A last kiss for mama: Jihadi parents bid young daughters goodbye... before one walks into a Damascus police station and is blown up by remote detonator

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ion-blown-remote-detonator.html#ixzz4TWiN8MqZ


----------



## Tisme (22 December 2016)

dutchie said:


> Charming religion, charming parents.
> 
> A last kiss for mama: Jihadi parents bid young daughters goodbye... before one walks into a Damascus police station and is blown up by remote detonator






> On one video, the mother repeatedly hugs the seven-year-old, named as Islam, and the older girl, named as Fatima.
> 
> A man behind the camera asks the woman why she is sending her daughters to jihad when they are so young.
> 
> She replies that 'no one is young when it comes to jihad as every Muslim is supposed to participate in jihad.'




And people suggest they are undesirable !!


----------



## Tisme (23 December 2016)

Lets hope there is some public flogging and humiliation of the 5 dickheads who were caught getting ready to bomb Melbourne's Fed Sq, St Pauls and Flinders St Station on Xmas day. Then lock em up for absolute life.


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Lets hope there is some public flogging and humiliation of the 5 dickheads who were caught getting ready to bomb Melbourne's Fed Sq, St Pauls and Flinders St Station on Xmas day. Then lock em up for absolute life.



Thankfully the Feds. are watching these would be killers and snuffed 'em out beforehand. Yes life sentence for planned mass killings.


----------



## dutchie (23 December 2016)

*Treason's Greetings: Seven Islamic terror suspects arrested over evil plan to bomb Melbourne's Federation Square, Flinders Street station and St Paul's Cathedral on Christmas Day*

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-concerns-community-safety.html#ixzz4TchcZhL0



Victorian Premier Andrews -  nothing to do with Islam


----------



## qldfrog (23 December 2016)

dutchie said:


> nothing to do with Islam



If taking lessons from Europe on how to handle the non-problem, we will end up in the same way as they are;


----------



## Tink (23 December 2016)

Really sad to see.

Everything they are doing in Melbourne, this Labor/Greens, regarding stopping Christmas, the songs etc.
Never thought I would see this in this country.

Now we have bombing....


----------



## noco (23 December 2016)

Tink said:


> Really sad to see.
> 
> Everything they are doing in Melbourne, this Labor/Greens, regarding stopping Christmas, the songs etc.
> Never thought I would see this in this country.
> ...




This all a part of the Fabian plot to destroy our way of life and what we believe in.....They are anti Christian.


----------



## luutzu (23 December 2016)

noco said:


> This all a part of the Fabian plot to destroy our way of life and what we believe in.....They are anti Christian.




Most Christians are anti-Christian value. Same with any other people of any other religion.

People take out of religion what they like to take out of them.

Would Jesus condone money, greed and bankers? Would Jesus accept refugees, teach his followers to serve his Father through helping others - be the good Samaritan and all that.

Even Pope Francis recently says that refugees are not the danger, that they are in danger.

So all those lessons and words are stupid, weak, leftist, commie nonsense?

Real Christian values is to rather kill 99.99% of innocent rather than let 1 terrorist get away? Yea, I think some King Herod had that same idea when some idiot told him a child born in that general direction will one day be King of Kings. Let's do what Jesus would and cleanse the city. 

I'm not a Christian but I'm dam sure that if Jesus has anything worth gloating about, he'd be pretty freaking upset hearing some of the crap that's being done by "his people" in his name.

Maybe that's why he's not coming back.


----------



## noco (23 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> Most Christians are anti-Christian value. Same with any other people of any other religion.
> 
> People take out of religion what they like to take out of them.
> 
> ...




I have posted this link before and I will post it over and over again if I have to.

The influx of Muslims and the problems they are causing are over shadowed by the damage being done by the Fabians (Communists)......I know they hate being branded as Communists but they can no longer gloss it over.

http://www.cirnow.com.au/the-fabians-and-gillard/

_*Ever since Gough Whitlam took power, we have seen the Fabian fingerprint on everything successive Labor governments have done. It’s not just that they spend all the money so carefully built up by their opponents the LNP or its predecessors whenever they are in power. The Laborites have made sweeping changes to the social fabric of our country, whittled away little by little at our freedoms, and pushed us ever closer to the communist ideal of collectivism.

As well, we have been disarmed, a key element in the Fabian agenda. An unarmed citizenry is unable to face the overwhelming force at the disposal of a Fabian-led government. So far, they have not had to implement force against us. Over the decades they have perfected ways to strip our rights and subjugate us, until we have a population so used to being told how to behave and what to do that our citizens willingly accept the impositions a free people would never submit to.*_

It is well know Labor let our ADF slip to 1.8% of GDP the lowest since 1938.

I have already indicated on another post that Bill Shorten is a member of the Fabian Society along with most of the Greens and Labor MPs.


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## luutzu (23 December 2016)

noco said:


> I have posted this link before and I will post it over and over again if I have to.
> 
> The influx of Muslims and the problems they are causing are over shadowed by the damage being done by the Fabians (Communists)......I know they hate being branded as Communists but they can no longer gloss it over.
> 
> ...




One terrorist is one too many, but as we've discussed before, should the crime of any one person be blame on all people of similar race/religion/culture...

If Islam is evil and all its followers are terrorists, then all Muslim in Australia would be terrorist and would already be out there burning the place down.

Since they are not all committing act of terrorism, but all are Muslims and apparently read and follow everything the Koran says - much like all Christians and Buddhists read and follow the teachings of those holy books - it follow that maybe something else beside religion better explain their stupid criminal behaviour.

----------

A society have to have a balance between collectivism and complete "capitalistic" individualism. 

There are certain things that ought to be done collectively - defence, education, healthcare, sewage and other utilities and infrastructure. Most everything else of minor importance ought to be left to the individual and their own enterprises.

Why in the world would anyone want to live in a country where they pay taxes and the gov't does nothing for them?

The only reason we're being sold that non-sense is because we're being lied to. Being tricked so that we plebs ought to pay our taxes but demand nothing; leaving those taxes for generous pay and pensions for public "servant" and more welfare for corporations and those who honestly believe they own the dam place.

I'm looking at biotech and pharmaceutical companies and so far, all of them are milking the nanny state like there's no need to pay benefits to the poor and the weak in our society.


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## Bill M (23 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> One terrorist is one too many, but as we've discussed before, should the crime of any one person be blame on all people of similar race/religion/culture...



Of course not, that's terrible. Each person should be treated on a case by case basis according to the law. Some of the neighbors of those that got rounded up today were Muslims also, that couldn't believe they had people like that living in their neighborhood.

Let me give you your first like, I like your posts.


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## noco (23 December 2016)

luutzu said:


> One terrorist is one too many, but as we've discussed before, should the crime of any one person be blame on all people of similar race/religion/culture...
> 
> If Islam is evil and all its followers are terrorists, then all Muslim in Australia would be terrorist and would already be out there burning the place down.
> 
> ...




It is all about numbers with Islam......The increase in Muslims and the added number of Muslims being born here gives them more muscle .......The majority of Australians do not want an Islamic state nor do we want their ideology rammed down our throats...If they cannot accept our laws and our way of life then deport them back to their own country if that is the way they want to live.

Putting Muslims aside, our biggest threat is that of Communism...The sooner Australia wakes up to this bigger threat the better.


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## luutzu (26 December 2016)

Bill M said:


> Of course not, that's terrible. Each person should be treated on a case by case basis according to the law. Some of the neighbors of those that got rounded up today were Muslims also, that couldn't believe they had people like that living in their neighborhood.
> 
> Let me give you your first like, I like your posts.




Thanks Bill.

Given my friends and neighbours and the upbringing, the ideals of multicultural Australia is actually quite accurate. There are cultural differences, but those are very minor and quite superficial when it comes down to it.


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## luutzu (26 December 2016)

noco said:


> It is all about numbers with Islam......The increase in Muslims and the added number of Muslims being born here gives them more muscle .......The majority of Australians do not want an Islamic state nor do we want their ideology rammed down our throats...If they cannot accept our laws and our way of life then deport them back to their own country if that is the way they want to live.
> 
> Putting Muslims aside, our biggest threat is that of Communism...The sooner Australia wakes up to this bigger threat the better.




Not really. The get any political influence, the Muslims will have to get rich first - all of them. But the problem with filthy rich people is that, in general, they do not see anything wrong with the world and so would not have time to imagine how a system that serves them so well could possibly need any changing.

That and we don't actually live in a democracy. Not one that serve the interest of the many anyway.

If we were truly a democracy, you'd see millionaires and billionaires jumping up and down at every budget. Crying at how they're made poorer and the tax system and social programmes are neglecting them and favour the poor. OK, bad example as they do that anyway, but you get the idea.


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## Tisme (27 December 2016)

noco said:


> Ever since Gough Whitlam took power, we have seen the Fabian fingerprint on everything successive Labor governments have done.




You are aware that Menzies had a right hand adviser and Public Service builder in Dr Coombs who rec'd plaudits from none other than Harold Laski himself. The London School of Economics was a major driver throughout the world for the giant bureaucracies that soak around 1/4 of the GDP. Under Menzies the PS increased and became autocratic ... go figure.


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## Garpal Gumnut (31 December 2016)

I have read through this thread again, and as I started it, I should say something. Islam as a religion has a bad effect in my opinion on a greater percentage of it's adherents than other religions. In itself it is not inherently evil. Just bad. I wouldn't want any of my children or grandchildren taking to it.


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## SirRumpole (31 December 2016)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have read through this thread again, and as I started it, I should say something. Islam as a religion has a bad effect in my opinion on a greater percentage of it's adherents than other religions. In itself it is not inherently evil. Just bad. I wouldn't want any of my children or grandchildren taking to it.





Trouble is a lot of it's devotees DO want their children and grandchildren following it so they indoctrinate the poor blighters, otherwise no one with a capability for rational thought would follow the cr@p.


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## noco (31 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Trouble is a lot of it's devotees DO want their children and grandchildren following it so they indoctrinate the poor blighters, otherwise no one with a capability for rational thought would follow the cr@p.




Brain Washed more like it.


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## luutzu (31 December 2016)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have read through this thread again, and as I started it, I should say something. Islam as a religion has a bad effect in my opinion on a greater percentage of it's adherents than other religions. In itself it is not inherently evil. Just bad. I wouldn't want any of my children or grandchildren taking to it.




Are other religion less bad? Name one.

Anyone who take any religion literally, follow its texts to the letter, listen and obey whatever its "leader" says... they will not be very nice to be around. Whether that is Islam, Christianity, Judaism... you name it.

Are Western/Christian countries wars and its various campaigns a Christian thing? Or just an Imperialism thing? Does the US droning whoever they deem to be terrorist a Christian value thing or just a job-creation thing?

So when Christian states commit wars and terror, that's not a Christian thing; But when Arabs and Muslims commit terror, it's definitely is an Islamic thing.

Logic and common sense just doesn't allow for that kind of bias.

Or take Israel and the Evangelical support for it. The entire project got its start from a couple of old books... carrying out God's promise; bringing back Christ so he'd end the world so that Christians can follow him to paradise. And this is not some ancient history... 

Anyway


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## luutzu (31 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Trouble is a lot of it's devotees DO want their children and grandchildren following it so they indoctrinate the poor blighters, otherwise no one with a capability for rational thought would follow the cr@p.





When the Islamic world was at its cultural/economic/political peak... it was still Islamic, right?

Now that its world are being liberated by loving foreign powers, sending its people either to pieces or otherwise scattered to the winds... is it because Islam that does it or because of war, terror and imperialism?

When the Christian kingdoms were living in huts and whipping themselves until they meet their Maker; when Christian states burn books, witches and whoever else they fancy... Christianity was the cause or was it merely some psychopath who proclaim themselves and their edict the embodiment of how Jesus was want it?

Again, as I've said it before... I know a lot of Christians... the good ones are good because they're generally good people. The psychos Catholics are so because they're just not brought up right. Got nothing to do with them going to Church.


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## SirRumpole (1 January 2017)

luutzu said:


> So when Christian states commit wars and terror, that's not a Christian thing; But when Arabs and Muslims commit terror, it's definitely is an Islamic thing.





Luu, you have missed the point again. There is no such thing as a "Christian State", churches are separate from governments in the West whereas in Muslim States the church IS the State. 

Christians may be in positions of power in Western governments and they may act on what they believe their religion wants, but it's not compulsory and there would be atheists in the government that would balance this out. No such dissent is tolerated in Muslim States , it's a case of toe the Koran line or be executed.


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## Tink (1 January 2017)

Agree, Rumpole.

I have explained about the separation of Church and State, which was set up by Christians.
The laws were established.
Life and Liberty etc etc...

Also, so the State could not impose on the people, and cause tyranny.


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## luutzu (1 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Luu, you have missed the point again. There is no such thing as a "Christian State", churches are separate from governments in the West whereas in Muslim States the church IS the State.
> 
> Christians may be in positions of power in Western governments and they may act on what they believe their religion wants, but it's not compulsory and there would be atheists in the government that would balance this out. No such dissent is tolerated in Muslim States , it's a case of toe the Koran line or be executed.




Tink and other Christians would disagree with you SirR, and they'd be right.

When politicians talk about them hating us for "our value", that we're sending our young over there to liberate and build and civilised them in the ways of democracy... that's PC for doing the Christian God's work.

But let say that the US and its allies' wars have nothing to do with Christianity (and I agree with you that it does not, not since WWI) why then do we believe that all acts of war by Arab/Islamic terrorists have everything to do with Islam?

Maybe people just don't like their country being overrun by invaders and terrorists. So they fight back. 

And if we read a bit beyond our own mainstream media, there are more terrorism by ISIS, and other radicals, on their own soil. We can put that down to sectarian violence, or North/South or East/West when they're from the same sect... but it's not Islamic terror solely against Christianity and democracy.

Seriously, if we're honest with ourselves... do we really think we have the right to just go into somebody's home, hang their elders and enforce our own rules and values on them... and they're supposed to like it. But we're not even doing that nation-building crap, we just take their oil and play one group of theirs against the other.


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## luutzu (1 January 2017)

Tink said:


> Agree, Rumpole.
> 
> I have explained about the separation of Church and State, which was set up by Christians.
> The laws were established.
> ...




They teach you that at Sunday Schools?

The idea that Christians (the Church) voluntarily separate themselves from the State so that all citizens could enjoy freedom and liberty... that make as much sense as the Nobility, the Lords and Barons at Runnymede forcing the Magna Carta on King John so that all free men (plebs included) are free and have their property protected, have equal rights before the law.

Gays can't even have an equal marriage in most Western countries right now. 

I guess some are more equal than others.


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## SirRumpole (1 January 2017)

luutzu said:


> Tink and other Christians would disagree with you SirR, and they'd be right.
> 
> When politicians talk about them hating us for "our value", that we're sending our young over there to liberate and build and civilised them in the ways of democracy... that's PC for doing the Christian God's work.




Nope, you have it wrong again. The US and its allies went to war in the Middle East to protect their interests, not their religion. Those interests included oil, influence in the ME and protection of allies. I'm not saying all those actions were noble, but they were never done in the name of Christianity and religion was not used as a reason for going there.



> But let say that the US and its allies' wars have nothing to do with Christianity (and I agree with you that it does not, not since WWI) why then do we believe that all acts of war by Arab/Islamic terrorists have everything to do with Islam?
> 
> Maybe people just don't like their country being overrun by invaders and terrorists. So they fight back.




Because the leaders who brainwash people into terrorism or fighting for ISIS are religious leaders, Imam's, Mullahs what ever you want to call them. They use the Koran as a justification for anything that they tell people to do. The propaganda that radicalises people is religious propaganda. "Mohammed said this, Mohammed said that, therefore do what Mohammed says". That's the only way they can motivate people to give up their lives by believing that Allah will look after them in Heaven.



> Seriously, if we're honest with ourselves... do we really think we have the right to just go into somebody's home, hang their elders and enforce our own rules and values on them... and they're supposed to like it. But we're not even doing that nation-building crap, we just take their oil and play one group of theirs against the other.




There is a lot of truth in that, but that's the way international politics works. If the West isn't in the ME, then Russia will be, and they are the "baddies".


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## luutzu (1 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Nope, you have it wrong again. The US and its allies went to war in the Middle East to protect their interests, not their religion. Those interests included oil, influence in the ME and protection of allies. I'm not saying all those actions were noble, but they were never done in the name of Christianity and religion was not used as a reason for going there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yea, if Western military can go into war to claim and protect their interests with lies and bs; why then do we think the terrorists and radicals fighting back because Islam says so.

Just as Western powers uses "democracy", "civilised value", WMD, tyranny, liberty, freedom... just because the leadership use those to make the case for war; the enemies too can use religion, national liberation, this and that to justify their wars.

Why do we link Islam with terrorism but would not link imperialism with Western, Christian, Democracy, capitalism?

Maybe we too are brainwashed.

Seriously, something is wrong with Islam and Muslims to hate invaders kicking their doors in, bombing their town and cities to take and control their country's major natural resources.

If China were to do the same with Australia, would us good Christians and atheists just take it?


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## SirRumpole (1 January 2017)

luutzu said:


> Seriously, something is wrong with Islam and Muslims to hate invaders kicking their doors in, bombing their town and cities to take and control their country's major natural resources.




Sounds like a reasonable description of what ISIS is doing wherever they go.


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## noco (1 January 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea, if Western military can go into war to claim and protect their interests with lies and bs; why then do we think the terrorists and radicals fighting back because Islam says so.
> 
> Just as Western powers uses "democracy", "civilised value", WMD, tyranny, liberty, freedom... just because the leadership use those to make the case for war; the enemies too can use religion, national liberation, this and that to justify their wars.
> 
> ...




In the ME, Muslims have been fighting Muslims for years...The Western World should have stayed away from them.....Let them kill each other.


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## noco (1 January 2017)

I am not sure if this thread "ISLAM AND AUSTRALIA" was ever deleted but I just happened to stumble on it....Different passages have been quoted from the Koran......Now would a true Muslim abide by these teachings and is it being pushed to kids in Muslim schools?

*Mr J said: ↑

What was the context? Also, it's not the only "holy" book containing violence. Do most Christians take the Old Testament literally?

 Hello Mr J , What do you think of this context ? 

Koran 9:29 


“Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.” Koran 2:191 

“Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.” Koran 9:123

“When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them.” Koran 9:5 

“Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.” Koran 3:85 

“The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.” Koran 9:30 

“Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam” Koran 5:33 

“The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque.” Koran 9:28 

“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” Koran 22:19

“Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.” Koran 47:4 

“The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.” Koran 8:65 

“Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.” Koran 3:28 
“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” Koran 8:12 

“Muslims must muster allweapons to terrorize the infidels.” Koran 8:60 


Bobby, Oct 19, 2009 Report

#75 Like*


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## luutzu (1 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sounds like a reasonable description of what ISIS is doing wherever they go.




That's why we all agree that ISIS is a bunch of murderous psychopath. 

Others who do similar things shouldn't be given a pass because they dress better doing it.

As to the Russian taking over the ME if the alliance don't... well the Russian tried with Afghanistan in the 80s. They kinda went broke, got a bit smarter and until very recently, simply buy a few dictators off instead of going all out liberation.

While we're into history... the ME is known as the graveyard of empires. Alexander took over but soon his generals got absorbed; Rome tried but only ever managed to hold at the edges; Britain managed to retrace the footsteps of Alex, went a lot further but overstretched itself and almost lost the homeland when that other crazy warlord thought he'd give empire building a go too.


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## Bill M (2 January 2017)

I like this social experiment. "Fear and Ignorance Leads to Racism" Watch the video.


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## noco (2 January 2017)

Bill M said:


> I like this social experiment. "Fear and Ignorance Leads to Racism" Watch the video.





Who were the actors.....Where was it filmed and who is the author presenting the video?

I would say it is just another bit of left wing propaganda.


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## noco (2 January 2017)

noco said:


> Who were the actors.....Where was it filmed and who is the author presenting the video?
> 
> I would say it is just another bit of left wing propaganda.




Can someone gives me some answers please otherwise I will take as a set up by the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition......They are past masters at delusion.

If the truth is known, probably neither are Muslim or Jewish....Just a couple of good actors.


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## Bill M (2 January 2017)

noco said:


> Can someone gives me some answers please otherwise I will take as a set up by the Green/Labor left wing socialist coalition......They are past masters at delusion.
> 
> If the truth is known, probably neither are Muslim or Jewish....Just a couple of good actors.



I don't know. I pulled it off youtube and when I saw it I thought it was quite interesting how most people actually thought it was good to see the two getting on together. It appears to have been filmed in the USA.


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## Tisme (3 January 2017)

noco said:


> Who were the actors.....Where was it filmed and who is the author presenting the video?
> 
> I would say it is just another bit of left wing propaganda.





I don't know how the left get to own it, because that insinuates the right don't have a social conscience, but it is certainly the kind of bulls4ite that has become an hachneyed fairytale since its birth in the late sixties. Luckily airhead memes about women's inner strengths and life's truths are taking over social media so the friendship hands across the great racial divides have some competition.


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## SirRumpole (13 January 2017)

There should be more of this, prosecutions that is.

*Melbourne Imam Ibrahim Omerdic charged over forced marriage of child*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-13/melbourne-imam-charged-over-forced-marriage-of-child/8180756


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## Tisme (13 January 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There should be more of this, prosecutions that is.
> 
> *Melbourne Imam Ibrahim Omerdic charged over forced marriage of child*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-13/melbourne-imam-charged-over-forced-marriage-of-child/8180756





That's an ABC article, so it's biased bull5hi7 that is patently untrue. If Andrew Bolt wrote the article for Newscorp I'd believe it no questions asked.


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## SirRumpole (14 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> That's an ABC article, so it's biased bull5hi7 that is patently untrue. If Andrew Bolt wrote the article for Newscorp I'd believe it no questions asked.




My bad for quoting an obviously biased Left Wing, Fabian, Marxist , PC leaning News organisation.


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## noco (17 January 2017)

How much longer do we have to put up this kind of display from the Muslim Community......A policeman received injury to the head and it could have been worse.

Why are our three useless leaders allowing this to happen without taking some firm action.

I say deport those trouble makers...We don't have this problem with other religions or ethnic groups.


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## Wysiwyg (19 January 2017)

Bit divided on the Australia Day flag ad. What the message appears to be is include the religion in Australian way of life. Well yes to inclusion of all ethnicities but no to the religion in its present interpretations. What the hell has religion to do with Australia Day.


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## noco (19 January 2017)

The old residents of Michigan have been pushed out of their city and taken over by Muslims.

It has also happened in the UK.

Don't let it happen here.


https://safeshare.tv/x/w5oLoW9jZJc#v


Dearborn, Michigan 2016


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## Tisme (19 January 2017)

noco said:


> The old residents of Michigan have been pushed out of their city and taken over by Muslims.
> 
> It has also happened in the UK.
> 
> ...




Assimilation became a dirty word 50 years ago.


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## noirua (19 January 2017)

Tisme said:


> Assimilation became a dirty word 50 years ago.




Birds of a feather flock together. Whether it is by country, religion or language, that is how it usually works out. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your opinion, this usually causes a backlash by the majority who then elect leaders more likely to stop immigrants arriving or even find ways to evict them.
Then individuals will want jobs rather than see companies go for cheaper workers abroad.

Thus the Donald arrives who can be sure of the majority being with him in Senate ans Congress. Many who speak in the way approved by Obama will quietly switch to what they were quietly and secretly thinking all along. Once America leads the way others will follow. Australia will eventually elect a leader in the Trump style as it becomes more fashionable.

Trade wars will escalate as each country defends its own companies, taxing certain imports. If America can do it then Australia will follow suit. Australia will be all the stronger in the next mining boom. When Uranium is desperately needed then slap a tariff on it of 50% - make them pay top dollar - and so it goes for everything else. Hit importers with big duties if it helps Aussie companies.

I may have drifted away from the subject of Islam. The problem is that Islam has no leaders in Australia who are really answerable to what goes on. Only Imams, though the Sunni branch does not have Imams. No equivalents of Bishops, Archbishops and Cardinals to be answerable.

There is a need to refuse, in my opinion, to adapt laws to suit immigrants. They must adapt to the laws of the country they are in.


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## noco (19 January 2017)

noirua said:


> Birds of a feather flock together. Whether it is by country, religion or language, that is how it usually works out. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your opinion, this usually causes a backlash by the majority who then elect leaders more likely to stop immigrants arriving or even find ways to evict them.
> Then individuals will want jobs rather than see companies go for cheaper workers abroad.
> 
> Thus the Donald arrives who can be sure of the majority being with him in Senate ans Congress. Many who speak in the way approved by Obama will quietly switch to what they were quietly and secretly thinking all along. Once America leads the way others will follow. Australia will eventually elect a leader in the Trump style as it becomes more fashionable.
> ...




You have my full support there champ......They either accept our laws,  respect our way of life and  assimilate...If they don't like the our way of life then they should  go back to where they came from and enjoy the life back in thier own country where the Sharia law is more suited to their way of living but don't try to force your ideology and religion on us..


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## noco (3 February 2017)

*HISTORY LESSON:  STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES*


You can ask any person, between the ages of 18 and 25, if they have ever heard of the Nuremburg Trials. It is possible that one person out of thirteen will say they have heard of the Trials. However, even that one will not be able to tell you what (not who) was on trial.


Those same people will not be able to tell you the name of the current Vice President.


Eighty four percent of those who receive this email will not completely read it...if they read any of it at all.


Ten percent will read it, but they will choose not to forward it on to others.


The remaining 6% most likely will forward it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The war started in the 7th Century and lasted through the 17th Century. Many will contend it never stopped; the facts below are historically correct.


That is why many of us choke when we hear someone say we will defeat or contain these Islamic terrorists in a few years, or even "30 years" as has been stated by Leon Panetta.


If the latest batch of murders, beheadings, and killing of innocent Christians has at all shocked you, it is time for you to read this compilation of historical facts about the intense hatred that Muslims have for any and all who are not Muslims.


*WE ARE THE STUPID*


In 732 A.D., the Muslim Army, which was moving on Paris, was defeated and turned back at Tours, France, by Charles Martell.


In 1571 A.D., the Muslim Army/Navy was defeated by the Italians and Austrians as they tried to cross the Mediterranean to attack southern Europe in the Battle of Lepanto.


In 1683 A.D., the Turkish Muslim Army, attacking Eastern Europe, was finally defeated in the Battle of Vienna by German and Polish Christian armies.


This nonsense has been going on for 1,400 years!  The sad thing is that more than half of all politicians do not even know any of this.


If these battles had not been won, we would most likely be speaking Arabic. Christianity could be non-existent.  Judaism certainly would not exist!


*Reality check:  A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality that they imagine America can suffer defeat without any inconvenience to themselves.*


Think back:  The following events are true historical facts.  It has been many years since 1968, but history keeps repeating itself.

1.  In 1968, Robert Kennedy was shot and killed by a *Muslim *male.

2. In 1972, at the Munich Olympics, Israeli athletes were kidnapped and massacred by *Muslim* males.

3.  In 1972, a Pan Am 747 was hijacked and eventually diverted to Cairo where a fuse was lit on final approach. Shortly after landing, it was blown up by *Muslim* males.

4. In 1973, a Pan Am 707 was destroyed in Rome with 33 people killed when it was attacked with grenades by *Muslim *males.

5  In 1979, the United States Embassy in Iran was taken over by *Muslim *males.

6. During the 1980s, a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by *Muslim *males.

7. In 1983, the United States Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by *Muslim *males.

8. In 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70-year-old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by *Muslim *males.

9. In 1985, TWA Flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a United States Navy diver who was trying to rescue passengers was murdered by *Muslim *males.

10. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by *Muslim *males.

11. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed for the first time by *Muslim *males.

12. In 1998, the United States embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by *Muslim *males.

13. On 09/11/01, four airliners were hijacked.  Two of the planes were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers.  One plane crashed into the United States Pentagon, and the other plane was diverted and crashed by the passengers.  Thousands of people were killed by *Muslim *males.

14. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against *Muslim *males.

15. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and beheaded by “ you guessed it “ a *Muslim *male.  (Plus two other American journalists who had just recently been beheaded.)

16. In 2013, the Boston Marathon bombing resulted in four innocent people, including a child, being killed and 264 other people injured by *Muslim *males.


*No, I really do not see a pattern here to justify profiling.  Do you?*



So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no long be allowed to profile certain people.


*So, ask yourself: "Just how stupid are we?"*


Have Americans completely lost their minds or just their "power of reason?"


As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest Gump" so aptly put it, "Stupid is as stupid does."


You now have the opportunity to send this on to other email contacts.  Please do that.  Or you can just sit back, keep complaining and do nothing. 


As Barack Obama said in his book: "Nothing sounds as beautiful as the Muslim evening prayers from the tower."


*Wake up America!*


----------



## luutzu (3 February 2017)

noco said:


> *HISTORY LESSON:  STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES*
> 
> 
> You can ask any person, between the ages of 18 and 25, if they have ever heard of the Nuremburg Trials. It is possible that one person out of thirteen will say they have heard of the Trials. However, even that one will not be able to tell you what (not who) was on trial.
> ...





What was on trial at Nuremberg noco?

A bunch of war criminals from a state that propagandised about the evil of an entire race and other group of undesirables, then systematically go about murdering them.

Those who were not directly involved in the concentration death camps were tried for crimes of starting war of aggression and all the crimes and horror that follows.

That was what was on trial. And what the heck did the entire email suggest ought to be done? Muslims did all these crimes and murder; Muslims are all evil... you decide what ought to be done with them.

Wow.

Though it's interesting that at the Nuremberg Trial, a legal defence to justify war crimes not being criminal is to prove that the crime was also committed by the Allied Forces. 

How history repeats ey.


----------



## noco (4 February 2017)

Boy, does this Brigitte lay ot on the line about the Islamic movement in the USA.


----------



## luutzu (4 February 2017)

noco said:


> Boy, does this Brigitte lay ot on the line about the Islamic movement in the USA.





But that's only their White Paper noco.

Gotta wait for feedback and further refinement, then printed in Holy Jihad Red for be taken seriously.


----------



## noco (4 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> But that's only their White Paper noco.
> 
> Gotta wait for feedback and further refinement, then printed in Holy Jihad Red for be taken seriously.




Luu, are you a Muslim?


----------



## luutzu (4 February 2017)

noco said:


> Luu, are you a Muslim?




Nope. I am not a Muslim.

Not a Catholic/Christian; not a Buddhist either.

Oh yes, an Atheist.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Nope. I am not a Muslim.
> 
> Not a Catholic/Christian; not a Buddhist either.
> 
> Oh yes, an Atheist.




Oh ye of little faith.


----------



## luutzu (4 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh ye of little faith.




I have faith that Capitalist will save the world and lift all humanity out of poverty.

Oh... crap.


----------



## noco (4 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I have faith that Capitalist will save the world and lift all humanity out of poverty.
> 
> Oh... crap.




So do you think the Fabians will do better?


----------



## luutzu (4 February 2017)

If I didn't look it up after you mentioned it, I would have thought that Fabian is either a fabric softener or Fabio's fan club. 

Any leadership that put the interest of the people first will, by definition alone, best serve the interest of the people.

So the people can be served by an enlightened dictatorship just as well as an enlightened oligarchy; just as well as a democracy or "socialism" or "communism" or "capitalism" and whatever other ism there are.

The people are fine with any form of gov't (not that they have much of a choice) as long as it look after their interests, or if not then leave them alone and not take too much from them.

Once the government takes from and exploit the public, beggared and starve the masses... the gov't will either smarten up quickly and give some back, that or find some scapegoats to blame (Jews, Gypsies, Communists, Muslims and other minorities) but sooner or later there will be riots and revolution if the root cause aren't solved and the people are starving. Well, if no internal revolution, neighbours might drop by and lend a hand taking over.

But in general, when the masses are pissed off enough with nothing to lose, even the Son of Heaven, the Sun King, the great and noble Roman Republic with its wise men and god emperors... all will be overthrown. So forget about a republic lead by a bunch of lawyers and clowns drumming about how great it is to give rich people more and more of the public's money so that they can trickle it down on us all, eventually, somehow, someday.

So will the Fabians or the Liberals or the One Nation serve us best? We're a democracy, if we don't tell them what to do, they'd do what they want to do and what they want to do are rarely about you and me.


----------



## noco (4 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> If I didn't look it up after you mentioned it, I would have thought that Fabian is either a fabric softener or Fabio's fan club.
> 
> Any leadership that put the interest of the people first will, by definition alone, best serve the interest of the people.
> 
> ...




Vote One Nation who cares most about people...One Nation wants to stop Muslim immigration...One Nation wants a review on lurks and perks of MPs.......Yeah baby, the way to go.


----------



## luutzu (5 February 2017)

noco said:


> Vote One Nation who cares most about people...One Nation wants to stop Muslim immigration...One Nation wants a review on lurks and perks of MPs.......Yeah baby, the way to go.




When The Yellow Emperor unconstitutionally ban Muslims for a couple of days, America was a whole lot richer and completely safe.

If that federal judge don't meddle with his majesty's edict, America would have been a paradise by now. 

Come on noco... bashing and blaming any minority had never helped any country. It's been tried many times before, all over the world.

Well... the only time it did help enrich the country was when you kinda, sorta, follow it through with genocide. And that's only when they go, they left behind all the riches and earthly belongings. The Muslims kinda have all their oil taken since the 1900s.

So morality and not wanting to commit war crimes aside, we don't want to go down that path do we?


----------



## Bill M (5 February 2017)

In this case it is the Muslims that are the victims of genocide. 99% of Aussies don't know or want to know about it, it is shocking.
---
Burma: Rohingya Muslim babies and children 'being slaughtered with knives', UN warns

One mother recounted in the report how her five-year-old daughter was trying to protect her from rape when a man “took out a long knife and killed her by slitting her throat”, while in another case an eight-month-old baby was reportedly killed while his mother was gang-raped by five security officers.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ives-massacre-genocide-un-warns-a7561711.html
---


----------



## noco (5 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> When The Yellow Emperor unconstitutionally ban Muslims for a couple of days, America was a whole lot richer and completely safe.
> 
> If that federal judge don't meddle with his majesty's edict, America would have been a paradise by now.
> 
> ...




So Luu, are you in favor of bringing in more Muslims into Australia  or not?


----------



## luutzu (5 February 2017)

noco said:


> So Luu, are you in favor of bringing in more Muslims into Australia  or not?




I tend not to judge and measure people base on their religion or skin tone. And I don't have issue with demographics threats to Australia's purity of blood and religion either.

So if we're to do the right thing by our international obligations and maybe human decency stuff and take in refugees... South American or Muslim refugees are all the same to me. 

Not sure why people like or prefer people of the same race and religion as their own. I mean I know a lot more Asians and because I know many, I find that most Asians are pricks. But that's not because it's an Asian thing, just because I know more of them and hang around them often.

You don't see a lot of White Aussies like that? They're all nice and good?


----------



## noco (5 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I tend not to judge and measure people base on their religion or skin tone. And I don't have issue with demographics threats to Australia's purity of blood and religion either.
> 
> So if we're to do the right thing by our international obligations and maybe human decency stuff and take in refugees... South American or Muslim refugees are all the same to me.
> 
> ...




So you are quite happy to let as many Muslims into Australia, to create havoc as they are now doing with terrorist acts and rioting......Given that,  I guess you would be happy  for Muslims to have their own Sharia laws.....Kill all Christians, infidels and homosexuals....female genital mutilations....behead in public anyone who criticizes  the Koran......stone to death in public any woman who commits adultery..Cut off the hands of kids who steal......Is that what you are in favor of? 

OMG....you are showing nativity.


----------



## luutzu (5 February 2017)

noco said:


> So you are quite happy to let as many Muslims into Australia, to create havoc as they are now doing with terrorist acts and rioting......Given that,  I guess you would be happy  for Muslims to have their own Sharia laws.....Kill all Christians, infidels and homosexuals....female genital mutilations....behead in public anyone who criticizes  the Koran......stone to death in public any woman who commits adultery..Cut off the hands of kids who steal......Is that what you are in favor of?
> 
> OMG....you are showing nativity.




That's why I don't mind you noco. That you "don't like" Muslims because you think Muslims and Islam are all those nasty stuff, and then some.

Most Australians, and patriots, don't like Muslims for the same reason. And if those are true of Muslims and Islam, why would anyone tolerate that kind of crap, let alone welcoming them into our mist.

Gotta ask yourself though... are those seriously true? Are all Muslims like that? Does Islam teaches and all its followers must obey that kind of barbaric terrorism stuff.

Maybe they're just lies and propaganda so that honest people like ourselves who are too busy with our own lives and not enough time to think about or look up these stuff... we kind of go along and don't really object to unending wars for peace and liberation of other people's land.

Trump is setting up the groundworks for the invasion of Iran. That'll really bring peace to the region ey? Israel would love that because with Iran gone, it can do whatever it is in that region and only have the "useless" UN to tell it it's committing warcrimes and the US calling it "unhelpful" in its search for peace and blah di dah.

Did you know that the US, under Fuhrer Trump, OK-ed a SpecialOp (in the middle of a dinner party, cool ey? A president that can authorise military actions and dance at the same time)... that a special op team just smash an entire village in Yemen, where eyewitnesses and locals says they hunker down for two hours in their house and when the fire fights ended, "bodies were everywhere".

But ey, one US SpecialOp died and apparently that's the only tragedy. Beside that, it's a great success, so says the White House spokes person 

Women, children, infant, innocents died because some one somewhere thought it's fair game to not only sanction and starve the freaking country, let's go in and show them terrorists that when we and friends of ours take their land and overthrow their gov't, they ought to like it! Don't follow Islam and fight back or some evil stuff like that.


I bet you're alright if China were to send in their special op to Townsville to take out certain people they don't like. That in the People's Daily, the Chinese did it because we abuse our women by getting them to wear bikinis and watch trash on TV and pr0n on the internet.


----------



## noco (5 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> That's why I don't mind you noco. That you "don't like" Muslims because you think Muslims and Islam are all those nasty stuff, and then some.
> 
> Most Australians, and patriots, don't like Muslims for the same reason. And if those are true of Muslims and Islam, why would anyone tolerate that kind of crap, let alone welcoming them into our mist.
> 
> ...




There is only one Muslim and they are the ones who follow the Koran and I am sure you are well versed in how it reads....If you are not sure then do some research on the Koran and its interpretation of it's contents....It may be an eye opener for you......Their army is the appointed terrorist just like we have a Defense Force...Our defense personal are true blue Aussies just as the rest of us are who want live in peace in our own country.....

Do we have problems with Catholics, Buddhism or any other religions in this country?.....The answer is NO!.....All the trouble makers are Muslim and I once stated on this forum some 7 years ago, Muslims are moderate in small numbers but since the red ranga  (Julia Gillard) let in 50,000 the Muslims have gained a lot more muscle and they are now using it.

You are correct when you say most Australians don't like Muslims and Islam and it is for the obvious reasons....The polls are quite evident..Why do you think Pauline Hanson and Cory Bernardi have gained in popularity?

Something to think about Luu.


----------



## luutzu (5 February 2017)

noco said:


> There is only one Muslim and they are the ones who follow the Koran and I am sure you are well versed in how it reads....If you are not sure then do some research on the Koran and its interpretation of it's contents....It may be an eye opener for you......Their army is the appointed terrorist just like we have a Defense Force...Our defense personal are true blue Aussies just as the rest of us are who want live in peace in our own country.....
> 
> Do we have problems with Catholics, Buddhism or any other religions in this country?.....The answer is NO!.....All the trouble makers are Muslim and I once stated on this forum some 7 years ago, Muslims are moderate in small numbers but since the red ranga  (Julia Gillard) let in 50,000 the Muslims have gained a lot more muscle and they are now using it.
> 
> ...




Pauline is popular because she knows how to say what some of us want to hear. She was on about Asians taking over Australia when I was growing up. She has since change her tune right? I mean the Asians have been breeding and there are a whole lot more of them.

So either she's going after the greater danger, i.e. Muslims, or whatever.

People do not need any religion to tell them that when some foreign military power comes in and take their oil, controls or otherwise props up friendly dictators... people tend not to like that. And some might take up arms against invaders.

Most just want to live peaceful lives man. Too hard to believe?

Are Christians and Jews in the West all follow the Old and New Testament? No sex before marriage? Fish only Fridays. Kill or convert all non-believers. Wait around for End Time.

Anyway, it's best not to believe that some moron who speak nasty of people they haven't met would somehow have the interests of others they haven't met and do not know, all just because the others are of the same skin colour.

Unless the colour is green and gold, a dirty Arab or a dirty White trash are the same to those people noco.


----------



## Ves (5 February 2017)

noco said:


> OMG....you are showing nativity.



Haha, that's a really good Freudian slip.


----------



## noco (5 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I tend not to judge and measure people base on their religion or skin tone. And I don't have issue with demographics threats to Australia's purity of blood and religion either.
> 
> So if we're to do the right thing by our international obligations and maybe human decency stuff and take in refugees... South American or Muslim refugees are all the same to me.
> 
> ...




Luu.....That does not answer my question which is do you favor bringing in more Muslims into Australia?

A simple YES or NO will do.


----------



## luutzu (5 February 2017)

noco said:


> Luu.....That does not answer my question which is do you favor bringing in more Muslims into Australia?
> 
> A simple YES or NO will do.




Yes it does answer it.

I favour migration, yes. Cultural background or religion I don't much care for. Main criteria ought to be whether our new citizens contribute or harm our commonwealth.

Some of us might believe that Islam and Muslims are harmful. I don't think that kind of simple measure are true. There are plenty of psychos and moochers from other races and other religions too... in fact, it's the mooching and terrorism that defines who's the moochers and who's the terrorists... not religion or ethnicity.


----------



## noco (5 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yes it does answer it.
> 
> I favour migration, yes. Cultural background or religion I don't much care for. Main criteria ought to be whether our new citizens contribute or harm our commonwealth.
> 
> Some of us might believe that Islam and Muslims are harmful. I don't think that kind of simple measure are true. There are plenty of psychos and moochers from other races and other religions too... in fact, it's the mooching and terrorism that defines who's the moochers and who's the terrorists... not religion or ethnicity.




You have hedged the question again...I just want a simple YES or NO...Do you favor more Muslim immigration into Australia?..Now please come clean with your answer otherwise I will take it that you are in favor of importing more Muslim terrorists.....


----------



## luutzu (5 February 2017)

noco said:


> You have hedged the question again...I just want a simple YES or NO...Do you favor more Muslim immigration into Australia?..Now please come clean with your answer otherwise I will take it that you are in favor of importing more Muslim terrorists.....




What?

You, and not me, we can't just ban Muslims noco. And we can't just let people in because they're Muslims either.

So it's a nonsensical question.

Take The Yellow Emperor's ban on Muslims. Do you seriously think that will keep America safe again?

Keeping American safe would be to not order a hit in Yemen. Not rattling sabres and nuclear annihilation against Iran or any other state.

The dude's been in power three weeks or less right? And already he'd pissed off all Muslims, most Mexicans, ratchet up war footing with China.. .and today, says he's going to bring peace to the Ukraine - that's going up against Russia, right?

Yup, take on the whole world why don't they ey. That'll keep the country safe and prosperous.


----------



## noco (5 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> What?
> 
> You, and not me, we can't just ban Muslims noco. And we can't just let people in because they're Muslims either.
> 
> ...




Yes we can ban Muslims and we can stop further entry...This out country and they should live as we live...If the ones here can't assimilate, abide by our laws and send their kids to state owned schools, then they do not deserve to be here....They leave their own country because they are suppressed or for some other reason but then they want to live in the same manner from whence left....Grrrrr


----------



## SirRumpole (5 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> You, and not me, we can't just ban Muslims noco. And we can't just let people in because they're Muslims either.





We don't need any more people per se. Wages are stagnant which means there is an oversupply of labour. We have stacked the place to the rafters and people can't afford houses. Enough.


----------



## noco (5 February 2017)

Listen to this link.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> Yes we can ban Muslims and we can stop further entry...This out country and they should live as we live...If the ones here can't assimilate, abide by our laws and send their kids to state owned schools, then they do not deserve to be here....They leave their own country because they are suppressed or for some other reason but then they want to live in the same manner from whence left....Grrrrr




People can't just abandon their language and culture like they shed clothing. As long as they practises don't harm anyone... that's what freedom is right?


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> We don't need any more people per se. Wages are stagnant which means there is an oversupply of labour. We have stacked the place to the rafters and people can't afford houses. Enough.




It's not overpoulation that causes that. It's economic policies.


----------



## Tisme (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Some of us might believe that Islam and Muslims are harmful. I don't think that kind of simple measure are true. There are plenty of psychos and moochers from other races and other religions too... in fact, it's the mooching and terrorism that defines who's the moochers and who's the terrorists... not religion or ethnicity.




In fairness you are using a political method for argument there luutzu. Two wrongs do not make a right.

It's fairly obvious there is a lot of appeasement by whitey going on, for fear of harm from Muslims. I's further obvious that Muslims present a clear danger of radical human behaviour or susceptibility to the suggestion of righting perceived wrongs with murder.

That other arse4o1es exist doesn't forgive the base terrifying treatment of man, woman and child by card carrying Muslims doing their God's dirty work. If they aren't representative Muslims, I haven't heard of any repudiation from the true believers.

Any chance you are living your demons vicariously through any war scarred migrants that arrive here, instead of discriminating between compatible cultures?


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> In fairness you are using a political method for argument there luutzu. Two wrongs do not make a right.
> 
> It's fairly obvious there is a lot of appeasement by whitey going on, for fear of harm from Muslims. I's further obvious that Muslims present a clear danger of radical human behaviour or susceptibility to the suggestion of righting perceived wrongs with murder.
> 
> ...




I thought that when the majority of Muslims in Australia and the West *not* committing terrorism or rape or marry multiple wives... maybe that's their way of repudiating whatever it is that those terrorists and rapists are doing right? No? They're just in the planning phase?

We're all human McGee. Cultures are somewhat over-rated. They're just habits and will slowly fade away, leaving each with that human traits of trying to advance their lot, find love and happiness or get married then put food on the table 

Society are governed by rewards and punishment, says Han Fei Tzu (). You reward and people follow; you punish and people stop doing stuff. Hence, it is somewhat alright to bomb and wage wars in 8 Muslim countries, making the lives of poor Arab peasants a living hell, that's somewhat acceptable to the world... but when you outright ban the rights of the rich and more privileged Arabs from those countries to travel, that's just too much.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> it is somewhat alright to bomb and wage wars in 8 Muslim countries, making the lives of poor Arab peasants a living hell,




OK to condemn the West's involvement in the ME. I contend that the object of this involvement is to restore law and order and worry about the rights and wrongs later.

What about the Muslim v Muslim Iran - Iraq war ? 1.5 million dead poor Arab peasants, ok by you ?


----------



## Tisme (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I thought that when the majority of Muslims in Australia and the West *not* committing terrorism or rape or marry multiple wives...
> 
> We're all human McGee..




Some are more human/humane than others.

20 years ago I would have scoffed at second gen Australians terrorising the world in the name of a sky fairy, but guess wot, a constant watch and vigil is now in place because of the real existential threat.

When a religion demands obedience in the face of physical and cohort harm, the vulgar reality of barbarity within believers will show it's hand. You may not be susceptible to control, but these people are in a constant state of subliminal readiness for instruction and mark my words they will turn on community and polite society if their oracles demand it.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> OK to condemn the West's involvement in the ME. I contend that the object of this involvement is to restore law and order and worry about the rights and wrongs later.
> 
> What about the Muslim v Muslim Iran - Iraq war ? 1.5 million dead poor Arab peasants, ok by you ?




The object is what? Law and order? 

Come on SirR. Next you're going to tell me that we're there so that Arabs can all live well and be rich and have democracy.

I'm a Lefty, so why would any war be alright by me? 

The only war that can be justified are defensive ones. And you cannot say that we go fight them there so we won't have to fight them here at home. Not when you're the mightiest military and economic power the world has ever known and they are some third rate power.

So when China is at our gates, you have my permission to go kick its azz. Just that me and my family and those who look Chinese would be behind some fence in the outback somewhere.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Some are more human/humane than others.
> 
> 20 years ago I would have scoffed at second gen Australians terrorising the world in the name of a sky fairy, but guess wot, a constant watch and vigil is now in place because of the real existential threat.
> 
> When a religion demands obedience in the face of physical and cohort harm, the vulgar reality of barbarity within believers will show it's hand. You may not be susceptible to control, but these people are in a constant state of subliminal readiness for instruction and mark my words they will turn on community and polite society if their oracles demand it.




I guess Tink and Australians of genuine faith are right to worry about the country going secular and forgetting God and religion. 

I mean, if we're ever attacked or invaded, how could we ever be roused to anger and find the courage to go defend our country if God's no longer in our lives. 

Nice trolling McGregor.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> The only war that can be justified are defensive ones.




Perhaps the Brits have a different view after being saved by the Yanks who were not being attacked by Germany ?


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> People can't just abandon their language and culture like they shed clothing. As long as they practises don't harm anyone... that's what freedom is right?




That is where you are wrong Luu...The Muslim practices are harming our people and our society...Surely you can understand that?


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Perhaps the Brits have a different view after being saved by the Yanks who were not being attacked by Germany ?




The Third Reich is slightly more powerful than ISIS and a handful of Arabs on pickups. At least wait until they got a proper Airforce, Navy and I don't know... some sort of military industrial complex to build that arsenal of Jihad.

The Yank didn't come into WW2 to save Britain though. They were just lending the Poms this and that at very high interests, all to keep Hitler away for a while. Then when it look as though England is going to join France and most of Europe in the new 1,000 year Reich, the Yanks were fine with that too.

Then Pearl Harbour happen, then England managed to stave off the Luftwaffe while Hitler pick fights with Stalin and create enemies everywhere.

It was at that stage that China says, alright Chins, let's go get ourselves a couple of disputed seas... wait, i'm skipping ahead 

It was at that stage that the Yanks thought to come on in and get all that war booties and remnants of the once great and mighty British and German and European empires. 

That and for democracy and liberty, of course. And yes, to also save the Jews that they turned back from their shores.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> The Third Reich is slightly more powerful than ISIS and a handful of Arabs on pickups. At least wait until they got a proper Airforce, Navy and I don't know... some sort of military industrial complex to build that arsenal of Jihad.




I hope you are joking.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> That is where you are wrong Luu...The Muslim practices are harming our people and our society...Surely you can understand that?




All religious nuts are harmful to a civil society noco. That includes Muslim nutjobs as well as other religious fanatics.

When people break the law and commit crimes and act of terrorism, we have law to deal with that. No one says it's fine and good as long as your religion permit it.


----------



## Tisme (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I guess Tink and Australians of genuine faith are right to worry about the country going secular and forgetting God and religion.
> 
> I mean, if we're ever attacked or invaded, how could we ever be roused to anger and find the courage to go defend our country if God's no longer in our lives.
> 
> Nice trolling McGregor.





It's not trolling ..... religious interference was specifically written out of our constitution for a reason. That reason is that it is a poison on egalitarian societies and swings in the breeze depending on the political environment of the time.

That you don't value the wisdom from bloody experience our national builders and the prejudices they had, does not make you right. There are some things that should not be tinkered with and one big one is accepting appeasement of barbarians in the hope their primitive mindsets will evolve from the  rat cunning, guile and barbarity of 1&1/2 millennia ago in the space of one generation; even in Ochertown Oz.


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> All religious nuts are harmful to a civil society noco. That includes Muslim nutjobs as well as other religious fanatics.
> 
> When people break the law and commit crimes and act of terrorism, we have law to deal with that. No one says it's fine and good as long as your religion permit it.




So what are these other religions you state that are involved in terrorist acts?


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I hope you are joking.




Not really.

It is a joke though to think that Western civilisation and democracy can be brought down by the likes of ISIS and Arab terrorists.

They will help bring us down in term of them being fodders for our (US) never ending military adventures and domestic militarised security forces. That will blunt any defence analysts and security personnel; it will drain and waste our treasuries and exhaust our collective will. 

Then a serious power, say, China... can just kick our azzes or throw sand in our face and there's not much we can do beside bringing civilisation to a nuclear winter.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> So what are these other religions you state that are involved in terrorist acts?




Didn't some White Christian Canadian just recently went into a Mosque and murder a half dozen Muslims?

Should we call Christian values into question because of that idiot?

When we fly over other people's sky and whenever we feel like it, press a button and anyone of them could get blown up... that's not terrorism?

So we should grow up and start condemning violence and terrorism from all "side"... that might bring about peace.


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> When a religion demands obedience in the face of physical and cohort harm, the vulgar reality of barbarity within believers will show it's hand. You may not be susceptible to control, but these people are in a constant state of subliminal readiness for instruction and mark my words they will turn on community and polite society if their oracles demand it.



I connect with this view above from Tisme. The "Islamic revival" is definitely being challenged now. I choose less control and greater freedoms.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> It's not trolling ..... religious interference was specifically written out of our constitution for a reason. That reason is that it is a poison on egalitarian societies and swings in the breeze depending on the political environment of the time.
> 
> That you don't value the wisdom from bloody experience our national builders and the prejudices they had, does not make you right. There are some things that should not be tinkered with and one big one is accepting appeasement of barbarians in the hope their primitive mindsets will evolve from the  rat cunning, guile and barbarity of 1&1/2 millennia ago in the space of one generation; even in Ochertown Oz.




Yea, that's why we ought not to use religion as a criteria in deciding who can enter or be citizens or hold certain office. 

When we start to decide that a certain religion is no good because its Holy Book says this and that, we might start to examine the Bible and ban our Christian selves from holding any office or entering Australia


----------



## Tisme (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea, that's why we ought not to use religion as a criteria in deciding who can enter or be citizens or hold certain office.
> 
> When we start to decide that a certain religion is no good because its Holy Book says this and that, we might start to examine the Bible and ban our Christian selves from holding any office or entering Australia





You seem to be having trouble understanding the difference between religion and a cultural nation. Islam is not merely a religion, it is a political, social, etc construct that is not geographically bounded. It does not have allegiance to sovereign borders and laws.

It may hide within the established society as a brood parasite but it cannot assimilate and stay to its doctrine.


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Didn't some White Christian Canadian just recently went into a Mosque and murder a half dozen Muslims?
> 
> Should we call Christian values into question because of that idiot?
> 
> ...




Maybe that white Christian Canadian may have had a mental problem and a lone wolf to do such an act...A one off situation but you bring that out into the light to condone multiple Islamic barbarity.

With your regard to flying over peoples skies and dropping bombs, they are generally targeted at some ISIS strong hold  in the ME, not in Australia, and quite often when ISIS are using children as human shields the bombing is abandoned.

You seem to continually have the wrong slant on Islamic terrorism with your constant defense of what they do.

Why aren't the "MODERATE MUSLIMS" condemning their brotherhood for the horrific acts imposed upon Christians and infidels......Horrific acts imposed upon their own people of female genital mutilation, the beheading in public of Muslims who condemn the Koran, who chop off kids hands for stealing, who stone to death a woman adulterer, old Muslim men who marry and sexually abuse a 10 year old girl.

You appear to turn a blind eye to all this.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> You seem to be having trouble understanding the difference between religion and a cultural nation. Islam is not merely a religion, it is a political, social, etc construct that is not geographically bounded. It does not have allegiance to sovereign borders and laws.
> 
> It may hide within the established society as a brood parasite but it cannot assimilate and stay to its doctrine.




Quite right. In Muslim countries Islam IS the law. No bothering with freedom of religion (apart from Islam), freedom of speech, freedom of association, separation of powers, secularism etc, it's tow the Islamic line or we'll kill you. 

That's a doctrine I wouldn't like to see spreading here.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> You seem to be having trouble understanding the difference between religion and a cultural nation. Islam is not merely a religion, it is a political, social, etc construct that is not geographically bounded. It does not have allegiance to sovereign borders and laws.
> 
> It may hide within the established society as a brood parasite but it cannot assimilate and stay to its doctrine.




Oh, so Islam is like one big parasitic snake. One that work together, fight and die together as brothers in arm.. .where if you hurt one you hurt them all. Stuff like that?

They don't fight each other? They don't have dictators and the elite and other norms of any society and culture?

You reading history or the Murdoch press?


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Quite right. In Muslim countries Islam IS the law. No bothering with freedom of religion (apart from Islam), freedom of speech, freedom of association, separation of powers, secularism etc, it's tow the Islamic line or we'll kill you.
> 
> That's a doctrine I wouldn't like to see spreading here.




That's why it's a "Muslim" country. Arab countries on the other hand...


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Quite right. In Muslim countries Islam IS the law. No bothering with freedom of religion (apart from Islam), freedom of speech, freedom of association, separation of powers, secularism etc, it's tow the Islamic line or we'll kill you.
> 
> That's a doctrine I wouldn't like to see spreading here.




Yes, but they are trying hard and the more who come into Australia the bigger muscles they get to impose their laws by demonstrating and rioting as we have witnessed in recent days.

Stop any further Muslim immigration or we will all suffer.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> Maybe that white Christian Canadian may have had a mental problem and a lone wolf to do such an act...A one off situation but you bring that out into the light to condone multiple Islamic barbarity.
> 
> With your regard to flying over peoples skies and dropping bombs, they are generally targeted at some ISIS strong hold  in the ME, not in Australia, and quite often when ISIS are using children as human shields the bombing is abandoned.
> 
> ...




Dude, I don't condone or excuse any violence or barbarity.

How do you want "Moderate Muslims" to condemn violence and Islamic crazies? 

By wanting to get away from those idiots would be a pretty good test. Unless they're all pretending to be running away or something, right?

Just listen to what you just said above... yea, ISIS and terrorists use human shield... so screw that, we'll blow those shield up too. Just to show them how civilised we are.


Stop justifying war and act or terror, from anyone. 

Didn't Jesus taught his followers that?


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 February 2017)

Non-muslims may have become too lax in their ways and need to be reined in.


"According to scholar Olivier Roy,

The call to fundamentalism, centered on the sharia: this call is as old as Islam itself and yet still new because it has never been fulfilled, It is a tendency that is forever setting the reformer, the censor, and tribunal against the corruption of the times and of sovereigns, against foreign influence, political opportunism, moral laxity, and the forgetting of sacred texts."


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Dude, I don't condone or excuse any violence or barbarity.
> 
> How do you want "Moderate Muslims" to condemn violence and Islamic crazies?
> 
> ...




A Muslim is a Muslim whether they be a moderate or a terrorist...They all believe and practice what is in the Koran...The kids are brainwashed every day so what will they think and believe when they become adults?

Do you ever hear or read in the media where a moderate Muslim condemns an act of Islamic terror?

Do you ever hear of a moderate Muslim condemning what I have already outlined regarding female genital mutilation etc, etc, etc.

I have heard of one or two Muslim women who have escaped from Islam and who I believe will live  in fear for the rest of their lives....It is death to any Muslim who leaves.

If they did, they would soon be eliminated make no mistake about that.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> A Muslim is a Muslim whether they be a moderate or a terrorist...They all believe and practice what is in the Koran...The kids are brainwashed every day so what will they think and believe when they become adults?
> 
> Do you ever hear or read in the media where a moderate Muslim condemns an act of Islamic terror?
> 
> ...




So what type of Christian are you noco? The same as all other Christians (except the psychotic terrorist, anti-gay, End Time, Evangelical and generally bad kind of Christian?)

Don't tell me you don't read the Bible and don't much believe in God and our Lord Jesus. And don't tell me you haven't gone out there telling the world that this and that other crazy White people's crazies aren't what you and other White people are all about.

How moderate or radical are you as a Christian and true blue Aussie? 

It's a bit much when you think about it.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Non-muslims may have become too lax in their ways and need to be reined in.
> 
> 
> "According to scholar Olivier Roy,
> ...




Yea mate, we got to get with the programme. 

I mean, why would our military and Uncle Sam ever go to war for any other reason than defending our freedom. Why would any military ever wage wars in countries that just happen to have the world's largest source of energy reserves and strategic significance. 

We all ought to know that we're fighting evil and extremists, it just happens that these extremists live atop huge, hugggeeee, reserves of oil and gas... and have not much of a military to do much about any invasion - except for Iran, but they're put on notice lately so no biggies.


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> So what type of Christian are you noco? The same as all other Christians (except the psychotic terrorist, anti-gay, End Time, Evangelical and generally bad kind of Christian?)
> 
> Don't tell me you don't read the Bible and don't much believe in God and our Lord Jesus. And don't tell me you haven't gone out there telling the world that this and that other crazy White people's crazies aren't what you and other White people are all about.
> 
> ...




Luu, for your information, I was Christianed and confirmed in the Church of England because my parents were religious.....In my late teens I realized I was mixing with a lot of hypocrites who used religion to cast a shadow over their own sins.

I was once married to a Catholic with bi-polar  who converted to Jehovah Witness, who tried to convert me without success.....It was some marriage I kid you not.

Religions have caused so many problems around the World so I  became Agnostic....I live a life of my own principles, I don't abuse or mistreat my wife......I abide by the laws of my country and I don't have to worry about someone knocking on my door seeking donations to help build a new church.......I don't have to worry about someone telling me how to live in my twilight years.....I do worry about about my children, grand children and great grand children perhaps having to live a life under Sharia law.

I hope that is enough to satisfy your curious mind.


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea mate, we got to get with the programme.
> 
> I mean, why would our military and Uncle Sam ever go to war for any other reason than defending our freedom. Why would any military ever wage wars in countries that just happen to have the world's largest source of energy reserves and strategic significance.



You know the Iran, Iraq, Kuwait story before then? They fight among themselves and I agree the 'West' should not interfere but the U.S. (world) needs oil or the machines will stop and that supply disruption fear is the reason.


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> You know the Iran, Iraq, Kuwait story before then? They fight among themselves and I agree the 'West' should not interfere but the U.S. (world) needs oil or the machines will stop and that supply disruption fear is the reason.




The USA is 90% self sufficient with oil...Why would they bother with the ME oil.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> You know the Iran, Iraq, Kuwait story before then? They fight among themselves and I agree the 'West' should not interfere but the U.S. (world) needs oil or the machines will stop and that supply disruption fear is the reason.




Know how in the 50s, Iran was a secular democracy? 

Iran's secular president thought that maybe BP should pay more in royalty so that his country and his people can get more of that black gold and build schools and fund healthcare and stuff like that.

So women were free, religion (Islam) was out and the country was democratic.

Guess what happened? 

A secular, democratic republican Iran needs to be liberated and the weakest of the Shah's son was installed. The CIA call it operation Ajax... 

Then when the Shah was overthrown, the Islamic Ayatollahs came to power... the US then got friendly with Iraq and our friend Saddam. Why? To keep Iran busy and get some payback for daring to become independent.

This is not to say that theocratic Iran is a great and wonderful place. I wouldn't want to be there. But we shouldn't be on our high horse thinking that our boss, the US, aren't some sort of imperial power. Or it is an imperial power but uses its power for good and noble aims.

And no, to secure against supply disruption is not a valid reason to take people's country and their resources. Whatever happen to the free market? Or international law?

I mean, some of us might be very rich if we could just go over to the neighbours' place and take their stuff. You know, secure our livelihood because we need to.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> The USA is 90% self sufficient with oil...Why would they bother with the ME oil.





Again, they need to because:

1. You'd want to control where that oil flows to. 
2. Your corporations makes lots and lots of money "helping" the Arabs extract and sell those free oil
3. Your own oil reserves might run out one day.

When you control the supply of oil, you can glut the world with oil and crush oil-producing states you don't like.


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## Wysiwyg (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> The USA is 90% self sufficient with oil...Why would they bother with the ME oil.



The cost to extract, quality and what Luutzu posted.

p.s. and environmental impact
p.p.s it certainly isn't for the sand mining prospects (bother with the ME oil?)


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> Luu, for your information, I was Christianed and confirmed in the Church of England because my parents were religious.....In my late teens I realized I was mixing with a lot of hypocrites who used religion to cast a shadow over their own sins.
> 
> I was once married to a Catholic with bi-polar  who converted to Jehovah Witness, who tried to convert me without success.....It was some marriage I kid you not.
> 
> ...




Maybe the Muslims who escaped from a theocracy also want to get away from religious stuff noco. Even if it's Islam.

It's in us worrying about the future of our children and grandchildren that we ought to not permit any law and rhetoric that bashes and alienate one group of people for no other reason than it sounds about right.

Maybe we ought to also care about politicians enriching themselves and their friends at the expense of all poor and sick people. And maybe try not to pollute and bake the planet that we all depend on to survive.


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Maybe the Muslims who escaped from a theocracy also want to get away from religious stuff noco. Even if it's Islam.
> 
> It's in us worrying about the future of our children and grandchildren that we ought to not permit any law and rhetoric that bashes and alienate one group of people for no other reason than it sounds about right.
> 
> Maybe we ought to also care about politicians enriching themselves and their friends at the expense of all poor and sick people. And maybe try not to pollute and bake the planet that we all depend on to survive.




I would say there are lots of Muslims who would like to escape the clutches of Islam but can't because they fear for their lives.

Bake the planet by man made Global Warming????......That is a scam and a farce as I have just proven on a post under the thread "CLIMATE CHANGE HYSTERIA."


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> And no, to secure against supply disruption is not a valid reason to take people's country and their resources. Whatever happen to the free market? Or international law?



Yes both Bush's are criminals. A pacifist  President would not have allowed that to happen.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> I would say there are lots of Muslims who would like to escape the clutches of Islam but can't because they fear for their lives.
> 
> Bake the planet by man made Global Warming????......That is a scam and a farce as I have just proven on a post under the thread "CLIMATE CHANGE HYSTERIA."




Dunno noco, I watch some interview where this scientist says that the chances of 3 consecutive years of ever increasing temperature, like the past 3 years we've just been through, that's a one in a million or hundred million years event. Anyway, it's rare.

For the planet to be increasingly hotter the past 15 years... I guess that's just a myth or something.

Anyway, been hot down here in Sydney past few days, and forecast for another few days. 

That's not saying it's CC... but imagine living in places that are that hot and you have to work in the fields or on a construction site; or living in tin sheds with no air con and no food or no money because your crop died for the season due to freak storms and drought.

If we're worried for the kids, trust me, Climate Change has, and will, kill a million times more people than any terrorist, Islamic or otherwise, could ever dream.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Yes both Bush's are criminals. A pacifist  President would not have allowed that to happen.




It's not just the Bushes though.

I was surprised to hear that JFK was a warmonger. Dam!

He started the US's journey into South America to clean up that "backyard" of "theirs". Well, if we don't count Mexico and its former half. Then his doctrine, as released in those planning sessions, was to beat the crap out of any thing and any one who dare challenge the US's "right" to do what it believe to be in its national interests - like Cuba.

But yea, the best we could hope for, unfortunately, seems to be a leader that does the imperial stuff but also focus on seriously lifting their own plebs to a higher standard of living.

The previous few decades seems to illustrate that the leadership don't think that that's their job. That if they make the upper crush filthy rich, the rest will take care of itself. IF that fails, then just blame this or that.


----------



## Tisme (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Oh, so Islam is like one big parasitic snake. One that work together, fight and die together as brothers in arm.. .where if you hurt one you hurt them all. Stuff like that?
> 
> They don't fight each other? They don't have dictators and the elite and other norms of any society and culture?
> 
> You reading history or the Murdoch press?




Your mention of dictators, etc is just more grist for the "let's be careful of these people" mill. They are indeed the cuckoo of the human race and they don't profess to be otherwise... they even preach it as if a vile fifth column is something to be proud of.


Mate I'm an educated man. I wouldn't read Newscorp for any other reason than pulp fiction.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Your mention of dictators, etc is just more grist for the "let's be careful of these people" mill. They are indeed the cuckoo of the human race and they don't profess to be otherwise... they even preach it as if a vile fifth column is something to be proud of.
> 
> 
> Mate I'm an educated man. I wouldn't read Newscorp for any other reason than pulp fiction.




I'm having trouble understanding what you said there McGee.

Anyway, there's no doubting the level of education, or the love for country and peace and liberty and all that.

Just sometime, quite frequently, the aim of education, formal or otherwise, is to tell the masses that whatever it is that their country does... they do it with the noblest of intentions. As what's his ugly face, Sam Harris, will calmly tells us, we Westerners kill people, bomb the living pieces out of them... but we do it with good intention so that's cool. 

The terrorists, on the other hand, they kill and murder people... but their aim is not for political or military objective. Their aim is to simply kill people for fun. That and to be closer to their Allah. And that's just crazy. He mean... victims of our violence will appreciate and understand that they were kill by the good guys.

The thing that's wrong with this Trump phenomenon is that somehow the masses are being blamed for his rise to power, when any glance at it will show something quite different.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Just sometime, quite frequently, the aim of education, formal or otherwise, is to tell the masses that whatever it is that their country does... they do it with the noblest of intentions.




Look, no one wants war, but do we want to see ISIS doing much worse things to people either ?

Come on luu, do you really want to see ISIS as a government because that's what will happen if nothing is done ?


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Look, no one wants war, but do we want to see ISIS doing much worse things to people either ?
> 
> Come on luu, do you really want to see ISIS as a government because that's what will happen if nothing is done ?




ISIS weren't around until "we" invaded. 
So we went into to find WMD, then when it's not there we went in the do nation-building; then when the new gov't of Iraq tells "us" to get out, we says no and so now are fighting ISIS. 

Next we'll be fighting Climate Change and bringing clean water to Baghdad or something.


Did you know that the Soviets was fighting Al Qaeda and Islamic terrorists from Afghanistan during the 80s? That a certain Osama was trained and armed by friends of ours to take on the Ruskies? 

Guess what happened to Islamic terrorism against Soviet interests when the Soviets retreated from Afghanistan. It ceased.

That's not to justify violence or terrorism. It's just a simple statement of the fact that when countries are at war with each other, acts of terrorism will happen. So are all these wars worth it? Worth the risk for us plebs?


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> ISIS weren't around until "we" invaded.




But they are around now.

Most of the work against ISIS  is being done by the Iraqi army and various other groups like the Kurds with aerial support by the US and allies. That seems like the best compromise available.


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> As what's his ugly face, Sam Harris, will calmly tells us, we Westerners kill people, bomb the living pieces out of them... but we do it with good intention so that's cool.



The good guys military do their best to beat the terrorists by focussing on the terrorist, not the civilians. The terrorists do their best to beat the good guys military by focussing on civilians, not the good guys military.  The terrorist has no rules of war. Kill everything that doesn't succumb to their will.



> ISIS weren't around until "we" invaded.



Come on. They are killing the people of Iraq and Syria as well. This is not only about the U.S.


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Again, they need to because:
> 
> 1. You'd want to control where that oil flows to.
> 2. Your corporations makes lots and lots of money "helping" the Arabs extract and sell those free oil
> ...




The USA has enough oil reserves for 1000 years.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> But they are around now.
> 
> Most of the work against ISIS  is being done by the Iraqi army and various other groups like the Kurds with aerial support by the US and allies. That seems like the best compromise available.




Anyone that everyone is fighting in the ME at the moment is ISIS or its affiliate. 

US and Western allies are fighting Assads, Assads is fighting "ISIS" and other rebels. etc. etc.

We're not there to try and fix things or right previous wrongs. We're there because doing whatever it is we're doing is, somehow, suppose to serve "our" national interests. And it has nothing to do with fighting ISIS or prevent terrorism. 

In fact, our planners and security agencies know and some had advised against these kind of wars. Saying that it will lead to more terrorism at home and does not serve to protect or advance our security or interests.

But yea...


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

noco said:


> The USA has enough oil reserves for 1000 years.




The world's oil reserves will run out in about 200 years. It'll be another 100 on oil at easier to get places; the remaining 100-year equivalent are in hard to get, small pockets and very uneconomical places. Ones where melting ice and sky high oil prices will make it easier to get to.

So no, the US does not have oil to last a thousand years.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> The good guys military do their best to beat the terrorists by focussing on the terrorist, not the civilians. The terrorists do their best to beat the good guys military by focussing on civilians, not the good guys military.  The terrorist has no rules of war. Kill everything that doesn't succumb to their will.
> 
> Come on. They are killing the people of Iraq and Syria as well. This is not only about the U.S.




That's what they all reckon. 

Obama's administration literally state that everyone within the kill zone of a drone strike are considered terrorist and enemy combatant unless they or their family or relative can prove to the US military otherwise.

I'm not making that up. I've heard from a few sources. 

So when Arabs attend their a wedding, or a hospital, or a school or just the market place and get blown up. Ooppsy? Prove that they're not a terrorist?

Yes, ISIS and other terrorists are killing everybody who do not obey or follow. It just show that this is not an Islamic thing where all Muslims are brothers or all Muslims hate the West.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> And it has nothing to do with fighting ISIS or prevent terrorism.




Really ? What has it got to do with ?

ISIS is militant Islam, anti West, anti democracy, pro terrorism. 

If they get powerful enough they will recruit people in western countries for terrorism, this is already happening so imagine what will happen if they get hold of more resources.

I can't really see how people can be blind to the problem of militant Islam, and think that if only we leave them alone they will leave us alone. That is just not a realistic appraisal of the situation.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Really ? What has it got to do with ?
> 
> ISIS is militant Islam, anti West, anti democracy, pro terrorism.
> 
> ...




The Soviets left Afghanistan alone after years of trying to take it over. 

When they left, Islamic terrorism against their interests stops. 

When the Red Coats and the colonials were fighting... what were the yanks doing to the British? What happened afterwards when they normalise relations?

We can go through every country and ever war and see these kind of examples. 

As Sun Tzu says, to move soldiers (and unite the people) against an enemy, you must rouse the people to anger.

Why would sane and normal people like you and I permit or shrug or just ignore endless wars against any group of people if we do not believe them to be barbaric savages out there to harm us and the world?

As George Orwell had warned us, don't think that Animal Farm is just about propaganda and state deceptions perpetrated by the Soviets and other authoritarian states... it's also done in open and democratic societies - just that it's harder to see and know it's being done because no one who peacefully oppose it gets to disappear. They just don't get rewarded with high pay and such common thing as rewards for honesty and proper scholarships.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> The Soviets left Afghanistan alone after years of trying to take it over.
> 
> When they left, Islamic terrorism against their interests stops.
> 
> ...




So appeasement is your answer ?

It doesn't work against lunatics, it just makes them feel more empowered.

Neville Chamberlain tried it and it didn't work. Britain endured  acts of terrorism against them, night bombings and V2 rocket attacks but they won in the end and the world is better off because they did.

I'm afraid that's the way it will have to be in the current "struggles".


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So appeasement is your answer ?
> 
> It doesn't work against lunatics, it just makes them feel more empowered.
> 
> ...





We've been through this.

First, it's not appeasement when if you decide to leave people and terrorists alone, they would not harm you. That's just being neighbourly. 

You can't go and beat up your neighbour then says that if you stop now they'll get really mad so you better finish the job. That's insane.

Second, Chamberlain did not appease because he wants peace. That's just propaganda being use to get us into every single war since WW2. I mean, not every country has the industrial and military might, or have the crazed world domination stuff of the Third Reich. 

Third, when a peer competitor on the scale of the Third Reich comes along, it's not a bad thing to find peaceful solution because let's face it, anyone of those potential threat do actually have nuclear power. And we, all of us human, cannot bomb our way out of that kind of confrontation.

Another damaging, and this one could be fatal, blow to our democracy and well being with all these wars on terror and anti-Muslim stuff is that it not only divide the country, it diverts our attention from watching our own politicians and their actions.

How many civil liberties and rights have been remove from us for this war on terror?

Anyway...


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> First, it's not appeasement when if you decide to leave people and terrorists alone, they would not harm you. That's just being neighbourly.




No, it's being deluded.

Anyway...


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No, it's being deluded.
> 
> Anyway...




Yes, people without a properly organised military thought they should get together and take on the military and economic might of the world. All just so their country and themselves could be taken out... all because their religion tells them to hate those who wear bikinis and drink alcohol.

Seriously. That's insane.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yes, people without a properly organised military thought they should get together and take on the military and economic might of the world. All just so their country and themselves could be taken out... all because their religion tells them to hate those who wear bikinis and drink alcohol.
> 
> Seriously. That's insane.




ISIS don't have a country. They are aiming for a caliphate somewhere in the ME. 

Other Muslim nations are fighting them as well. Do you really think they are the "good guys", or somehow "misunderstood" revolutionaries fighting for freedom ?


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yes, people without a properly organised military thought they should get together and take on the military and economic might of the world.
> Seriously. That's insane.



They thought it was possible like any combatant when they enter into conflict. Modern killing machines are more advanced compared to beheading the local cow herder or stray journalist so they were never going to succeed. Now if they got some backing from a well armed country then that would be a game changer.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> ISIS don't have a country. They are aiming for a caliphate somewhere in the ME.
> 
> Other Muslim nations are fighting them as well. Do you really think they are the "good guys", or somehow "misunderstood" revolutionaries fighting for freedom ?




Who's ISIS? Seriously?

I know there are the ISIS we're all told... and don't get me wrong, I am not defending ISIS or terrorism or any kind of violence, let's get that clear.

Now, who is ISIS?

Everyone "we" fight against in the ME are now ISIS. Everyone Russia fights against, they call them ISIS etc. etc.

Like I've said before, I've watched many interviews of proper journalists and historians, people who actually goes to the place and what they're saying is that ISIS themselves are just a small group of religious psychos we see and hear on TV... most of those who are "ISIS" are former Saddam's military officers whose livelihood were destroyed when the US came in and de-Baath Iraq, setting one sect against the other.. you know, doing what all imperial power tend to do. 

Anyway... if at first we can't find WMD, can't bring democracy, can't rebuild their nation in our image, we'll still be there to free them from terrorists. 

100 years war alright.


----------



## luutzu (6 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> They thought it was possible like any combatant when they enter into conflict. Modern killing machines are more advanced compared to beheading the local cow herder or stray journalist so they were never going to succeed.




Trust me, no body ever thought it's possible to take on a nuclear powered alliance of the willing. They don't need to watch Hollywood movies to realise that.

That's like a five year old walking up to a high schooler to pick a fight.

But once the high schooler goes and beat up the kid, the kid would fight back. Sure the little schrimp will get his azz handed to him, but he will fight back.


----------



## noco (6 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Who's ISIS? Seriously?
> 
> I know there are the ISIS we're all told... and don't get me wrong, I am not defending ISIS or terrorism or any kind of violence, let's get that clear.
> 
> ...




ISIS are all still Muslims who practice what is in the Koran.....Lets not try to kid ourselves.


----------



## luutzu (7 February 2017)

noco said:


> ISIS are all still Muslims who practice what is in the Koran.....Lets not try to kid ourselves.




IF that's the case, what shall we do with all them Muslims noco?

Any solution?

Seriously though, how many countries talks openly about taking over another country; regime change; all options on the table... The only ones that have done it is ISIS.


----------



## noco (7 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> IF that's the case, what shall we do with all them Muslims noco?
> 
> Any solution?
> 
> Seriously though, how many countries talks openly about taking over another country; regime change; all options on the table... The only ones that have done it is ISIS.




ISIS is the Muslim army and well trained just like we have our well trained ADF...
Muslims have civilians and so does Australia.

Muslims want an Islamic world state and that is why there has been a well organized immigration infiltration into Western countries....The Muslims took advantage of Gillards open borders and Angela Merkel's stupidity in Germany and look what has happened there. 

Solution : Ban any further entry of Muslims into Australia.....Deport all trouble makers...NO IFS, NO BUTS.

Close all Muslim schools so the kids cannot be brain washed with the teachings of the Koran....The teachings to Muslim kids is to kill all Christians and infidels.

Compel all Muslims now living in Australia to abide by our laws and not try to introduce their own Sharia laws.

If something is not done to curtail the operations of Islam in this country there will be a civil war within the next 20 years.


----------



## luutzu (7 February 2017)

noco said:


> ISIS is the Muslim army and well trained just like we have our well trained ADF...
> Muslims have civilians and so does Australia.
> 
> Muslims want an Islamic world state and that is why there has been a well organized immigration infiltration into Western countries....The Muslims took advantage of Gillards open borders and Angela Merkel's stupidity in Germany and look what has happened there.
> ...




How many laws and constitutional whatever would we break with some of those solutions? Doesn't matter?

I live among the Muslims and even here at ground zero, non-Muslims are not forced to convert or eat Halal or any Sharia Law (the bad kind).

You're somewhat misinformed on the issue noco.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I live among the Muslims and even here at ground zero, non-Muslims are not forced to convert or eat Halal or any Sharia Law (the bad kind).




No but Muslims are threatened with death if they leave Islam. 

What are your thoughts on that ?


----------



## noco (7 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> How many laws and constitutional whatever would we break with some of those solutions? Doesn't matter?
> 
> I live among the Muslims and even here at ground zero, non-Muslims are not forced to convert or eat Halal or any Sharia Law (the bad kind).
> 
> You're somewhat misinformed on the issue noco.




Misinformed????...Really

Well, my friend I have news for you.

They may not be forced eat to Halal certified foods says you, but I would hazard a guess that they do....If they are found out not doing what the good book states , they could well face persecution. 

The polls are showing the majority in Australia think as I do.

Now then who is misinformed...I think you should be doing some research on what the majority of people are saying about Muslims and the Islamic movement.

Why is Pauline Hanson and Cory Bernardi becoming so popular...That must be one hell of a worry for the likes of yourself who are quick to defend Islam and the Muslims.

WE DON'T WANT MORE MUSLIM.


----------



## luutzu (7 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No but Muslims are threatened with death if they leave Islam.
> 
> What are your thoughts on that ?




I do like our law and practise of sending in the authorities when anyone threatens anyone, for any reason.

So we already got that covered.


----------



## luutzu (7 February 2017)

noco said:


> Misinformed????...Really
> 
> Well, my friend I have news for you.
> 
> ...




All people should be worried about Pauline and co. Even you noco.

Anyway, got work to do.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I do like our law and practise of sending in the authorities when anyone threatens anyone, for any reason.
> 
> So we already got that covered.




Yeah, people are prosecuted for "honour killings" after the victim is dead.


----------



## SuperGlue (7 February 2017)

Even when the whole world is converted to one faith or religion there will still be killings and fighting
One religion but will still kill/fight because of our race, because of country, believes, religious sect. etc,. etc. and sometimes because of 5 cents.
Take 5 minutes and think of all the fightings and troubles around the world, most of them are almost of
same religion
It is not the religion that is evil, it is man that wrote or interpret or preaches it from
its original intention from The One up above.

We are only humans.


----------



## noco (7 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> All people should be worried about Pauline and co. Even you noco.
> 
> Anyway, got work to do.




I am not worried about Pauline...She and Cory are the only two MPs listening to what people think but who are not game to say.


----------



## Tisme (7 February 2017)

SuperGlue said:


> Even when the whole world is converted to one faith or religion there will still be killings and fighting
> One religion but will still kill/fight because of our race, because of country, believes, religious sect. etc,. etc. and sometimes because of 5 cents.
> Take 5 minutes and think of all the fightings and troubles around the world, most of them are almost of
> same religion
> ...




Yeah I don't subscribe to the "religions are the main cause" for wars and deaths. 

Of course before the Brits decided enough was enough and invented parliaments and rule of law, religious institutions used superstition and fear to great effect.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Yeah I don't subscribe to the "religions are the main cause" for wars and deaths.




In some cases religions are the cause of war. Shiites vs Sunnis, Iraq v Iran etc. Millions of deaths in that war.

But mostly there are other reasons, resources being the main one, and psychopathic despotism.


----------



## Tisme (7 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> In some cases religions are the cause of war. Shiites vs Sunnis, Iraq v Iran etc. Millions of deaths in that war.
> 
> But mostly there are other reasons, resources being the main one, and psychopathic despotism.





Empire building


----------



## Tisme (7 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> We've been through this.
> 
> How many civil liberties and rights have been remove from us for this war on terror?
> 
> Anyway...




Perhaps admitting the truth of it being a party for heterodoxies on one side and heretics on the other might be a way of stopping the slide? I'm fairly sure the antagonists derive some delight in the game they are playing.


----------



## noco (7 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> In some cases religions are the cause of war. Shiites vs Sunnis, Iraq v Iran etc. Millions of deaths in that war.
> 
> But mostly there are other reasons, resources being the main one, and psychopathic despotism.




Rumpy, back in the 30's we protestant kids were always fighting with the Catholic kids in the neighborhood.......Shangeyes where the weapon of the day.....Hard to believe but true....Religion once again the cause of the fighting.


----------



## luutzu (7 February 2017)

noco said:


> Rumpy, back in the 30's we protestant kids were always fighting with the Catholic kids in the neighborhood.......Shangeyes where the weapon of the day.....Hard to believe but true....Religion once again the cause of the fighting.




See? Christians and White people weren't always buddies.


----------



## noco (7 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> See? Christians and White people weren't always buddies.




We were all white people Luu...Just at the time we hated each others guts......Both religions used to pray.....Pray for what and did  praying help to make friends?....I think not at the time....One of the reasons I became agnostic.


----------



## luutzu (7 February 2017)

noco said:


> We were all white people Luu...Just at the time we hated each others guts......Both religions used to pray.....Pray for what and did  praying help to make friends?....I think not at the time....One of the reasons I became agnostic.




I guess it goes to show that when the Masters of Man want a war, they will somehow, some ways, find a point of difference and use that to sow hatred among the plebs. That and a bit of pay and they got themselves soldiers going to fight for freedom and liberty and a whole lot of loots and war booties.

The soldiers who survive get a medal or two, go back home to farm with their injuries and scars... the Masters get bigger castles and mansions and new found land. 

Same old, same all across all cultures and race.

I think Patrick Colburn, a British journalist and ME expert, was saying how we're told that the ME is a wreck because of religion and sectarian violence, Sunni/Shiite hatred etc. Leaving aside how that happen and assuming "we" have nothing to do with it... 

He was saying how in Libya, where they're all of the same sect and after "we" knock out Gaddafi and throw the whole country into a civil war... The WH and press explain the war as an East and West Libya thing.

You know, the Libyan in the East hates the Libyans in the western part of the country.


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2017)

noco said:


> There is only one Muslim and they are the ones who follow the Koran and I am sure you are well versed in how it reads....If you are not sure then do some research on the Koran and its interpretation of it's contents....It may be an eye opener for you.......





Same can be said for the Bible, can you think of anything objectionable in the Qu'ran (Koran) that isn't also represented in the Bible?


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Same can be said for the Bible, can you think of anything objectionable in the Qu'ran (Koran) that isn't also represented in the Bible?




There is a lot of bad stuff in the OT, but from what I've seen most modern Christians ignore the OT and follow the NT.

Sure there are Christian and Jewish extremists, but they don't seem to be the ones doing the damage at the moment.


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a lot of bad stuff in the OT, but from what I've seen most modern Christians ignore the OT and follow the NT.
> 
> Sure there are Christian and Jewish extremists, but they don't seem to be the ones doing the damage at the moment.




They love the Ten Commandments, and thats from the OT

The New Testament does say that gays a worthy of death, which when combined with the teaching of the OT, is pretty clear.

But just as most Jews and christians ignore the bad bits and try and explain them away, so do most muslims.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> They love the Ten Commandments, and thats from the OT
> 
> The New Testament does say that gays a worthy of death, which when combined with the teaching of the OT, is pretty clear.
> 
> But just as most Jews and christians ignore the bad bits and try and explain them away, so do most muslims.




There is no NT in the Koran and there are enough hard line Muslims around to keep on causing problems around the world. 

If the hard line Muslims take over the "moderates" will fall in line like sheep, because they will then have power over the infidels.


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no NT in the Koran and there are enough hard line Muslims around to keep on causing problems around the world.
> 
> If the hard line Muslims take over the "moderates" will fall in line like sheep, because they will then have power over the infidels.




The Jews don't accept the NT, yet they are still able to ignore the bad bits of the ot mostly.

But Noco would have you believe the best way of taking power away from the Islamic extremists is to treat the moderates like crap, thats just silly, causing more polarisation gives power back to the extremists.

In reality the only answer is to treat the moderates well, showing them the benefits of secular society, while all along steadily slowing them to become less religious by debunking their religious claims.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> In reality the only answer is to treat the moderates well, showing them the benefits of secular society, while all along steadily slowing them to become less religious by debunking their religious claims.




Yes, that's fair enough, but there doesn't seem to be much debunking of religion going on by national leaders, it's more like politically correct nonsense about everyone's right to choose what they believe, even though a lot of them are held to a religion by fear and threats.

Most of our political leaders are simply afraid of religions and the power they hold over their voting congregations.


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, that's fair enough, but there doesn't seem to be much debunking of religion going on by national leaders, it's more like politically correct nonsense about everyone's right to choose what they believe, even though a lot of them are held to a religion by fear and threats.
> 
> Most of our political leaders are simply afraid of religions and the power they hold over their voting congregations.




Freedom of religion is very important, without it secular society can't exist or grow.

In fact when you see me defending peoples religious rights e.g. Halal, it is not because of a love of religion, it's because I understand banning religions does nothing but cause polarisation and a shrinking of secular culture.

It sounds counter intuitive, but allowing people freedom to choose and practice their religion tends to make them take it less seriously, because when you see 20 different types of religions all believing different things, you start to have doubts, especially if the people you have been taught to fear are polite and welcoming, if they sneer at you and look down on you, you retreat back to your core beliefs.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It sounds counter intuitive, but allowing people freedom to choose and practice their religion tends to make them take it less seriously, because when you see 20 different types of religions all believing different things, you start to have doubts, especially if the people you have been taught to few are polite and welcoming, if they sneer at you and look down on you, you retreat back to your core beliefs.




 Sure I get that. The essential question that we are discussing though is whether we keep digging a hole for ourselves by admitting more people who could potentially be a problem.

Desensitising people from religion is going to take a long time, and it makes no sense to me to make that a bigger problem than we already have.


----------



## Tink (7 February 2017)

Our Christian heritage is not a religion.

I have no interest in your religion of PC, therefore I will be saying whatever I choose.

*Political correctness - the devil!*
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/political-correctness-the-devil.13663/


----------



## luutzu (7 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a lot of bad stuff in the OT, but from what I've seen most modern Christians ignore the OT and follow the NT.
> 
> Sure there are Christian and Jewish extremists, but they don't seem to be the ones doing the damage at the moment.




You haven't seen Trump's Cabinet pick? 

There's full of right wing religious nuts and White supremacists. The rest are just after money and military hardware.


----------



## luutzu (7 February 2017)

Tink said:


> Our Christian heritage is not a religion.
> 
> I have no interest in your religion of PC, therefore I will be saying whatever I choose.
> 
> ...




So it's heritage, then?

You know, a whole lot of things are, has been, done in the name of Christianity that if I'm a Christian I'd be pretty peed off about it.


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure I get that. The essential question that we are discussing though is whether we keep digging a hole for ourselves by admitting more people who could potentially be a problem.
> 
> Desensitising people from religion is going to take a long time, and it makes no sense to me to make that a bigger problem than we already have.




Having a religious test / Muslim ban would be stupid.

Most terrorists are home grown, so if you really want to stop the threat of future terrorism try and stop the Pauline Hanson types bad mouthing a minority group and trying to make them feel like second class citizens who aren't real Australian's, and quit trying to ban the burqa etc.

The biggest thing that will make a terrorist is a child growing up seeing their mother and father sneered at and treated like crap, and feeling like they aren't Australian and that they have to stay in their closed off little echo chamber.


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2017)

noco said:


> Rumpy, back in the 30's we protestant kids were always fighting with the Catholic kids in the neighborhood.......Shangeyes where the weapon of the day.....Hard to believe but true....Religion once again the cause of the fighting.




In Ireland the Catholics used a lot more than Shangeyes, you were more likely to be ambushed by Armalites or something from Heckler and Kosh.


----------



## overhang (7 February 2017)

Tink said:


> Our Christian heritage is not a religion.
> 
> I have no interest in your religion of PC, therefore I will be saying whatever I choose.
> 
> ...



Our heritage has been built on the separation of church and state, something many Christians and Muslims would love to change and still do, so often Christians feel they can tell others how to live their own lives whether that be who can marry, how someone can die or the right to have an abortion.


----------



## Tink (7 February 2017)

I think I have said enough about our history throughout, overhang.


----------



## Wysiwyg (7 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> In reality the only answer is to treat the moderates well, showing them the benefits of secular society, while all along steadily slowing them to become less religious by debunking their religious claims.



With airing this thought, Muslims will grip the book more tightly. It is a test to remain faithful and not be swayed.


----------



## Value Collector (7 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> With airing this thought, Muslims will grip the book more tightly. It is a test to remain faithful and not be swayed.




It's worked for Jews and Christians, and it works for muslims too.

Allowing them to practice their faith in peace, while also showing them you don't need the religion to have a good life or be a good person is what has caused western nations become less and less religious over time.

--------
Tink, you still haven't found the words Jesus, Christian or Bible in our constitution yet have you?


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Having a religious test / Muslim ban would be stupid.




No need to put a ban on, just move applications from Muslim countries to the end of the list, or require educational standards that they are unlikely to have.

In any case, the arguments for continued immigration are weakening. Wage growth is stagnant which means that there is an oversupply of labour. Technology advances means less people will be needed to deliver services.

We have enough people now, and natural increase will take care of our future needs, we don't need to import more from anywhere.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No need to put a ban on, just move applications from Muslim countries to the end of the list, or require educational standards that they are unlikely to have.
> 
> In any case, the arguments for continued immigration are weakening. Wage growth is stagnant which means that there is an oversupply of labour. Technology advances means less people will be needed to deliver services.
> 
> We have enough people now, and natural increase will take care of our future needs, we don't need to import more from anywhere.




I must strongly disagree. Education in Australia is a disgrace compared to most other countries. 

We have disinterested students protected by "rights" and disinterested teachers, some of whom know little more than their students protected by "unions "

Give me an overseas trained Engineer or Scientist over a homegrown one any ole day of the week. 

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (7 February 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I must strongly disagree. Education in Australia is a disgrace compared to most other countries.
> 
> We have disinterested students protected by "rights" and disinterested teachers, some of whom know little more than their students protected by "unions "
> 
> ...




 If our education system is failing, and there is little doubt that it is, then we must improve it, not use imports as a crutch.

Why is it failing ? Because we go for the lowest common denominator where every child gets a prize instead of encouraging curiosity and the desire to learn.

From my position at the political Centre I'd have to say that the Left leaning teacher's unions who just want a soft job without much scrutiny have let our education system down and thereby have let down generations of students, plus the fact that mainly Conservative governments have abandoned public education and left most of the job to the private schools.

Faults on both sides here and it has to be fixed. Better teachers in  public schools, better pay and more accountability.

Back to the subject of Islam, they may be some well educated Muslims, but I think most of them would have got their education in Western countries.


----------



## noco (7 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The Jews don't accept the NT, yet they are still able to ignore the bad bits of the ot mostly.
> 
> But Noco would have you believe the best way of taking power away from the Islamic extremists is to treat the moderates like crap, thats just silly, causing more polarisation gives power back to the extremists.
> 
> In reality the only answer is to treat the moderates well, showing them the benefits of secular society, while all along steadily slowing them to become less religious by debunking their religious claims.




I wish you luck with that one buddy...We are already treating the "MODERATE"   Muslims well with social welfare cutesy of the Australia Tax payer.....90% are unemployed or unemployable.....We are showing the benefits of society but they just thumb their noses and do what ever they want to do.....When the extremist get enough muscle power, the moderates will have to do as they are told or else they will be beheaded of stoned to death in public.

You obviously have little idea how Islam operate...They are absolutely ruthless.


----------



## Value Collector (8 February 2017)

noco said:


> I wish you luck with that one buddy...We are already treating the "MODERATE"   Muslims well with social welfare cutesy of the Australia Tax payer.....90% are unemployed or unemployable.....We are showing the benefits of society but they just thumb their noses and do what ever they want to do.....When the extremist get enough muscle power, the moderates will have to do as they are told or else they will be beheaded of stoned to death in public.
> 
> You obviously have little idea how Islam operate...They are absolutely ruthless.




Can you provide a link to your source that says 90% of Muslims are unemployed.

Also, you keep talking as if "Islam" is one thing or one group, Islam is not one thing, just as Christianity isn't one thing.


----------



## Value Collector (8 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No need to put a ban on, just move applications from Muslim countries to the end of the list, or require educational standards that they are unlikely to have.
> 
> In any case, the arguments for continued immigration are weakening. Wage growth is stagnant which means that there is an oversupply of labour. Technology advances means less people will be needed to deliver services.
> 
> We have enough people now, and natural increase will take care of our future needs, we don't need to import more from anywhere.




Why not just judge each person in their merit.


----------



## Tink (8 February 2017)

Just shows how dumbed down our public schools are.

Too busy teaching children that they are not allowed to use the words boy or girl, and they are not allowed to use the words husband and wife.
Flawed science.

Kick the PC to the curb.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/chaos-in-australian-education.25851/page-6


----------



## Tisme (8 February 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I must strongly disagree. Education in Australia is a disgrace compared to most other countries.
> 
> We have disinterested students protected by "rights" and disinterested teachers, some of whom know little more than their students protected by "unions "
> 
> ...




I think the various problems can be distilled down to the role of the Principal in schools and dollar chase in higher education.

While there certainly seems to be a degradation in primary, secondary and tertiary outcomes, I think we have to consider what benchmarks we are comparing them to. In my generation I can clearly recall the many students who struggled, the many who left school at end of or before Year 3, etc. The only tests we had were exams and an IQ test in grade 7.

Australia has always had a cultural cringe about itself and it seems we are still content to beat ourselves up. For generation, upon generation we imported skilled workers and white collar bosses .... a taste of Nationalism in the Whitlam years changed that somewhat.

I have posted before how the schools have been so politicised that teachers do not have the scope we think they have in providing broad analogue education..... if  they attempt to teach outside the set criteria they are put onto reindoctrination punishment programs. They are by and large robots.

The central characters are the Principals whose goals are to deliver KPIs set by district managers who answer to some head office and govt policy. The rigidity of that system means under performing students are jettisoned when they turn 17, teachers are disciplined harshly and also jettisoned if they try to use flare and initiative that causes a blip on the student performance radar. Permanency in position for teachers is a hard ask, because it takes away the flexibility by Principals to dump anyone that shi7s teh mob.

Engineers, let me tell you one day about the Indian trained "engineers" who have displaced the local and European breeds by taking blue collar wages for "professional" services.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Why not just judge each person in their merit.






> Recruits to Islamic militant groups are likely to be well educated and relatively wealthy, with those aspiring to be suicide bombers among the best off, a study by the World Bank has found.
> 
> The research, based on internal records from the Islamic State group, will reinforce the growing conclusion among specialists that there is no obvious link between poverty or educational levels and radicalisation.
> 
> ...




It's getting harder to judge people on their 'merits' .


----------



## luutzu (8 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> I think the various problems can be distilled down to the role of the Principal in schools and dollar chase in higher education.
> 
> While there certainly seems to be a degradation in primary, secondary and tertiary outcomes, I think we have to consider what benchmarks we are comparing them to. In my generation I can clearly recall the many students who struggled, the many who left school at end of or before Year 3, etc. The only tests we had were exams and an IQ test in grade 7.
> 
> ...




So we import both Chiefs and Indians?


----------



## SirRumpole (8 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Engineers, let me tell you one day about the Indian trained "engineers" who have displaced the local and European breeds by taking blue collar wages for "professional" services.




So what are the standards of the Indian engineers ? Better than what we produce here ?


----------



## Tisme (8 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> So we import both Chiefs and Indians?




Yes and our own lack of education means we take cues from oracles who guess what is going on rather than taking an integral interest. 

Much easier to just enrol your kid in school with a reputation rather than actual substance and bag out the huge state system as wanting. 

The kids that succeed are more likely the ones with parents who articulate their desire for a better family education, the school is merely a vehicle and a reflection of the number of concerned parents, rather than the institution itself.

My own is a contracted teacher who is in constant demand for her talents. Where she goes the school performance rises in her cohort and thus the outcomes. Being leading edge subjects she has the rare advantage of actually steering the content to variously overlap university subjects and meet world's best practice. The proofs are her many facebook present and past student friends, many of whom are now successful business leaders, when they would otherwise me poverty trapped in coconut and native suburban subsistence enclaves.


----------



## Tisme (8 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So what are the standards of the Indian engineers ? Better than what we produce here ?




That would be a joke 30 years ago. I must admit, with the dilution of higher education into "specialist"  degrees rather than ubiquitous disciplines there is not a whole lot of construction industry engineers who seem to convey confidence of their predecessors. Of course locals draftees aren't stupid, but they seem insipid and more inspired to use nomograms and rules of thumb than actual edge engineering.

At the risk of offending politically/socially sensitive X genners, imports from third world countries are necessarily going to have high skills in survival using rat cunning and low asking wages to take influential vacancies. Engineering in many disciplines is captured by many many codes these days, so not a lot of nous is required, merely the ability to document rehashed specifications and flick pass to contractors.

You can see the differences of Australian engineering and European, merely by watching some youtube flicks on the subject


----------



## noco (8 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Can you provide a link to your source that says 90% of Muslims are unemployed.
> 
> Also, you keep talking as if "Islam" is one thing or one group, Islam is not one thing, just as Christianity isn't one thing.




Actually it is 93%...Sorry for the mistake.

Perhaps I should rephrase Islam as the Islamic movement patronized by Muslims.

https://theconversation.com/factche...welfare-with-an-unemployment-rate-of-97-54395


----------



## Tisme (8 February 2017)

noco said:


> Actually it is 93%...Sorry for the mistake.
> 
> Perhaps I should rephrase Islam as the Islamic movement patronized by Muslims.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/factche...welfare-with-an-unemployment-rate-of-97-54395





That's for refugees, what about migrant Muslims?


----------



## noco (8 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> That's for refugees, what about migrant Muslims?




I think you find most of the refugees are Muslim

Don't be as lazy as VC...do your own research. I have other things to do.


----------



## luutzu (8 February 2017)

noco said:


> Actually it is 93%...Sorry for the mistake.
> 
> Perhaps I should rephrase Islam as the Islamic movement patronized by Muslims.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/factche...welfare-with-an-unemployment-rate-of-97-54395




If Refugees don't cost us anything, they aren't refugees now are they?

When we help people on a humanitarian basis, unless we're the contractor, we shouldn't expect to make money.

If the gov't want to save the country money and make us all rich, they'd have to give more to the rich. That's the only way.


----------



## noco (8 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> If Refugees don't cost us anything, they aren't refugees now are they?
> 
> When we help people on a humanitarian basis, unless we're the contractor, we shouldn't expect to make money.
> 
> If the gov't want to save the country money and make us all rich, they'd have to give more to the rich. That's the only way.




How did you work out that refugees don't cost us money?....I just posted the cost..........I think you are deluding yourself Luu.


----------



## luutzu (8 February 2017)

noco said:


> How did you work out that refugees don't cost us money?....I just posted the cost..........I think you are deluding yourself Luu.




I did agree with you that they do cost money.

But that's the point, isn't it? We're trying to be nice and generous and take them it - at our expense. So of course it costs money.

Will the refugees eventually repaid that debt and generosity... that should be the main question noco.


----------



## noco (8 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I did agree with you that they do cost money.
> 
> But that's the point, isn't it? We're trying to be nice and generous and take them it - at our expense. So of course it costs money.
> 
> Will the refugees eventually repaid that debt and generosity... that should be the main question noco.




Yes it is costing us heaps of money thanks to the stupidity of Rudd and Gillard.

We are being too nice and generous to these bludgers and they are taking full advantage of it.

I doubt they will ever pay back the debt owing to us tax payers  if they will be on welfare for the rest of their miserable lives.


----------



## luutzu (8 February 2017)

noco said:


> Yes it is costing us heaps of money thanks to the stupidity of Rudd and Gillard.
> 
> We are being too nice and generous to these bludgers and they are taking full advantage of it.
> 
> I doubt they will ever pay back the debt owing to us tax payers  if they will be on welfare for the rest of their miserable lives.




You know that I'm a former [?] refugee noco?

Accounting wise, I'm pretty definitely sure I've paid more than all the welfare I've ever received. And I'm one of the black sheep who hasn't bothered much with getting a proper job and overpaying for properties and stuff.

I know it sounds reasonable to think that if only it weren't for refugees and poor people on welfare, our country would be rich and there's money left for the not-so-poor [?] but seriously, where do we get this idea that poor and powerless people get to decide what the gov't does with its money.


----------



## Tisme (8 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> You know that I'm a former [?] refugee noco?
> 
> Accounting wise, I'm pretty definitely sure I've paid more than all the welfare I've ever received. And I'm one of the black sheep who hasn't bothered much with getting a proper job and overpaying for properties and stuff.
> 
> I know it sounds reasonable to think that if only it weren't for refugees and poor people on welfare, our country would be rich and there's money left for the not-so-poor [?] but seriously, where do we get this idea that poor and powerless people get to decide what the gov't does with its money.





Noco did say "I doubt they will ever pay back the debt owing to us tax payers if they will be on welfare for the rest of their miserable lives."

I think a Viet refugee from your era would probably have a demonstrably better work ethic than many sun addled middle eastern work beliefs and values. You just have to recall how hard they worked on street corners and bus stops around the country handing out little plastic envelopes to schoolies while constantly readjusting the awkward machete hidden in their trowsers.


----------



## luutzu (8 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Noco did say "I doubt they will ever pay back the debt owing to us tax payers if they will be on welfare for the rest of their miserable lives."
> 
> I think a Viet refugee from your era would probably have a demonstrably better work ethic than many sun addled middle eastern work beliefs and values. You just have to recall how hard they worked on street corners and bus stops around the country handing out little plastic envelopes to schoolies while constantly readjusting the awkward machete hidden in their trowsers.




My parents still don't like living in Cabramatta because of that. They're only a suburb away but that's a big difference to them.

When I was a lot younger, got on a wrong train and ended up in Cabra around 8pm. Dad was supposed to pick me up at Fairfield Station and so I'm stuffed.

Ran around Cabra looking for business that's still open - they close early back then, for certain reasons - and of the handful that were open I asked if I could use their phone to call home. 

None of them would let me use their phone.

So it's getting real dark and druggies would come out soon and there I was running around in a panic. Then head towards the station hoping to just get on one.

Then a group of about 5 youth without love (5T) asks if I'm alright. Told them the story and he gave me 50 cents to make a phone call. And they didn't want to recruit me at all.


----------



## noco (8 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> My parents still don't like living in Cabramatta because of that. They're only a suburb away but that's a big difference to them.
> 
> When I was a lot younger, got on a wrong train and ended up in Cabra around 8pm. Dad was supposed to pick me up at Fairfield Station and so I'm stuffed.
> 
> ...




Luu, I was a where you were a refugee and I admire you and all the other Vietnamese who have come here, worked hard, learned our language and assimilated into our community but there is no comparison to what we have been saddled with in Muslim community who have taken advantage of out generosity, have caused all sorts of problems with the radicals, the demonstrations and rioting.

Have we had that kind of trouble with the refugees from Vietnam? ....NO.


----------



## Value Collector (8 February 2017)

noco said:


> Actually it is 93%...Sorry for the mistake.
> 
> Perhaps I should rephrase Islam as the Islamic movement patronized by Muslims.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/factche...welfare-with-an-unemployment-rate-of-97-54395




As already pointed out your claims are bogus.

You claimed 90% of moderate muslims are on unemployment benefit, can you please provide evidence for this claim.

The link you provided saying 93% percent of refugees are unemployed is for all refugees which includes all religions, It also includes the large amount of refugees who are not allowed to work, 

Also, 75% of the people in the study had been in Australia less than 6months, hardly a fair sample.

So back to the original question, where is your evidence that 90% of moderate muslims are unemployed?


----------



## Value Collector (8 February 2017)

noco said:


> Don't be as lazy as VC...do your own research. I have other things to do.




You made the claim, its up to you to provide the evidence, thats called the burden of proof, you should look it up.


----------



## Value Collector (8 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's getting harder to judge people on their 'merits' .



Its certainly a lot more reliable than judging them based on religion or country of birth.


----------



## luutzu (8 February 2017)

noco said:


> Luu, I was a where you were a refugee and I admire you and all the other Vietnamese who have come here, worked hard, learned our language and assimilated into our community but there is no comparison to what we have been saddled with in Muslim community who have taken advantage of out generosity, have caused all sorts of problems with the radicals, the demonstrations and rioting.
> 
> Have we had that kind of trouble with the refugees from Vietnam? ....NO.




There were problems. Drug pushing, petty crimes and Australia's first political assassination. 

Lucky Pauline was on our case else Cabramatta and Fairfield would have had its street signs written in Chinese by now. Not that the Viets can read Chinese... I guess all Asians look and sound the same anyway


----------



## SirRumpole (9 February 2017)

noco said:


> I wish you luck with that one buddy...We are already treating the "MODERATE"   Muslims well with social welfare cutesy of the Australia Tax payer.....90% are unemployed or unemployable.....We are showing the benefits of society but they just thumb their noses and do what ever they want to do.....When the extremist get enough muscle power, the moderates will have to do as they are told or else they will be beheaded of stoned to death in public.
> 
> You obviously have little idea how Islam operate...They are absolutely ruthless.




Once again the noco's lack of research betrays him.

Middle East and North African migrants have a 33% unemployment rate in their first 5 years in Australia, and approach parity after about 20 years.

https://theconversation.com/middle-...utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=explains

That still isn't good , but it's a lot better than "post truth" noco claims.


----------



## noco (9 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Once again the noco's lack of research betrays him.
> 
> Middle East and North African migrants have a 33% unemployment rate in their first 5 years in Australia, and approach parity after about 20 years.
> 
> ...




Yes you may be right but nevertheless 93% of all  unemployed migrants is still a burden on the tax payer.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 February 2017)

noco said:


> Yes you may be right but nevertheless 93% of all  unemployed migrants is still a burden on the tax payer.





Have you posted a link to your data ?


----------



## noco (9 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Have you posted a link to your data ?




Rumpy, you are slipping old mate.......I posted it on post #1498 which you obviously have not read.

https://theconversation.com/factche...welfare-with-an-unemployment-rate-of-97-54395


----------



## moXJO (9 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> My parents still don't like living in Cabramatta because of that. They're only a suburb away but that's a big difference to them.
> 
> When I was a lot younger, got on a wrong train and ended up in Cabra around 8pm. Dad was supposed to pick me up at Fairfield Station and so I'm stuffed.
> 
> ...



I knew the 5t back in the day, partied with a lot of viets and knew what a lot of them were into. There were major large scale crimes that were going on. From the fishing industry, gambling, drugs, extortion. Great networks, everyones related to someone.
I think every immigrant group that comes here does a ship load of damage and takes advantage to get themselves ahead.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 February 2017)

noco said:


> Rumpy, you are slipping old mate.......I posted it on post #1498 which you obviously have not read.
> 
> https://theconversation.com/factche...welfare-with-an-unemployment-rate-of-97-54395




93% is for refugees not general migrants.

You said


> I wish you luck with that one buddy...We are already treating the "MODERATE" Muslims well with social welfare cutesy of the Australia Tax payer.....90% are unemployed or unemployable.....




Do you want to clarify your position ?


----------



## noco (9 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> 93% is for refugees not general migrants.
> 
> You said
> 
> ...




I already did on post #1514.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 February 2017)

noco said:


> I already did on post #1514.






> but nevertheless 93% of all unemployed migrants




That is an incorrect figure.

93% of REFUGEES are unemployed, you are saying that "moderate Muslims" make up 93% of all unemployed migrants. There are no stats that show that.


----------



## noco (9 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That is an incorrect figure.
> 
> 93% of REFUGEES are unemployed, you are saying that "moderate Muslims" make up 93% of all unemployed migrants. There are no stats that show that.




Yes you are right and I did correct that.

Did you check out the link?


----------



## luutzu (10 February 2017)

moXJO said:


> I knew the 5t back in the day, partied with a lot of viets and knew what a lot of them were into. There were major large scale crimes that were going on. From the fishing industry, gambling, drugs, extortion. Great networks, everyones related to someone.
> I think every immigrant group that comes here does a ship load of damage and takes advantage to get themselves ahead.




I don't know very many dodgy Viets at all, honest 

There's a reason why Viet temples sprang up all over the place... people tend to go there, donate and confess to Buddha for certain "slight" unethical dealings here and there. 

I've heard of a couple of fairly large fortunes that were made in possibly illegal ways. I mean, is it legal to knowingly buy stolen stuff? Like a pallet or two of pricey goods to David Jones and Woolies that fell off the truck once or twice a week; or buy from kids with lots of car radios they want to trade in for cash...


----------



## noco (10 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I don't know very many dodgy Viets at all, honest
> 
> There's a reason why Viet temples sprang up all over the place... people tend to go there, donate and confess to Buddha for certain "slight" unethical dealings here and there.
> 
> I've heard of a couple of fairly large fortunes that were made in possibly illegal ways. I mean, is it legal to knowingly buy stolen stuff? Like a pallet or two of pricey goods to David Jones and Woolies that fell off the truck once or twice a week; or buy from kids with lots of car radios they want to trade in for cash...





No it is not legal.........That person is a receiver of stolen goods irrespective of whether they are paid for or not and that becomes a criminal offense.....That is the way I have always known it.


----------



## Wysiwyg (10 February 2017)

moXJO said:


> I think every immigrant group that comes here does a ship load of damage and takes advantage to get themselves ahead.



The honest and the dishonest. My Grampa came from Italy and when he was old enough he opened a store and later managed a farm. On the other side was the Mafia element. The Greeks and the Italians had a reputation for working for a living and are a large part of post WW's Aust. prosperity.


----------



## bellenuit (10 February 2017)

Interesting survey for Europe....

https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration#


----------



## moXJO (10 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> The honest and the dishonest. My Grampa came from Italy and when he was old enough he opened a store and later managed a farm. On the other side was the Mafia element. The Greeks and the Italians had a reputation for working for a living and are a large part of post WW's Aust. prosperity.



Yep knew of plenty of Italians that ran large scale dodgy operations. Every group has them  Serbians, Syrian, Chinese. Its amazing the stories you hear.


----------



## DB008 (10 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> Interesting survey for Europe....
> 
> https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration#




Are you surprised? I'm not.

Raming trucks into innocent people at markets seems to be the new black, in France and Germany at least. Say anything about it and your deemed a racist/bigot/Islamophobe.


----------



## Wysiwyg (10 February 2017)

re: video = Head full of ....


----------



## noco (10 February 2017)

It is not an infiltration by Muslims any more, it now an invasion......If it is not curtailed in Australia, we will have a civil war within the next 20 years.


----------



## Wysiwyg (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> It is not an infiltration by Muslims any more, it now an invasion......If it is not curtailed in Australia, we will have a civil war within the next 20 years.



It is hard to understand why in the 21st century there are people literally living in the 7th century and physically perpetuating what someone may or may not have spoken or written. Belief can be toxic.


----------



## luutzu (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> It is not an infiltration by Muslims any more, it now an invasion......If it is not curtailed in Australia, we will have a civil war within the next 20 years.





I thought you would have lived and see enough history yourself to not believe these kind of stuff noco.

Don't most Western countries still have colonies and segregation of some form in the 50s to even the 70s?

I don't think any country ever colonises another through peace and talks. 

Not saying that two wrong make a right, or that all Muslims are peaceful; not even saying that Islam are all peace and what not. But to pick facts and certain passages; to look at their cruelty but completely ignore "ours"... that's not history, that's propaganda.

Just look at the US and many of its politicians. They're hell bend on banning gays, women's productive rights, ignore science because God promises this and that... anyway, lots of nut jobs around, from all sides and in pretty much the same proportions too. 

I mean, we (rightly) think ISIS are a bunch of crazy farks because they wanted to create a new caliphate and bring back Allah's promise or whatever... they butchered people and threaten to flatten cities. Have you heard the kind of crap some of "our" Western politicians and media figures have been saying? They're equally nuts,and in some cases, they're actually carrying out those crazy stuff, on an industrial scale.


----------



## luutzu (11 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> It is hard to understand why in the 21st century there are people literally living in the 7th century and physically perpetuating what someone may or may not have spoken or written. Belief can be toxic.




In most cases, it's because God/Allah is the only thing they have left to hope for.


----------



## luutzu (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> No it is not legal.........That person is a receiver of stolen goods irrespective of whether they are paid for or not and that becomes a criminal offense.....That is the way I have always known it.




I knew it!


----------



## Wysiwyg (11 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> In most cases, it's because God/Allah is the only thing they have left to hope for.



No non human entity speaks to people and gives them a message. If it did it would be happening on a regular basis or offering more guidance and at least in recent years. Thing is in modern more knowing times we identify these people that hear voices as imaginative to insane. If there was a non human entity back then they would not have spoken the sh.. that comes out of adherents mouths. The religious text is completely the thoughts of human being. It is completely and utterly ridiculous. When will people wake up from the dream.


----------



## luutzu (11 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> No non human entity speaks to people and gives them a message. If it did it would be happening on a regular basis or offering more guidance and at least in recent years. Thing is in modern more knowing times we identify these people that hear voices as imaginative to insane. If there was a non human entity back then they would not have spoken the sh.. that comes out of adherents mouths. It is completely and utterly ridiculous.




It is ridiculous if we think about it. But that's why they tells us to "have faith", i.e. I know it doesn't make sense, but trust me and trust the leadership.

Then in places and countries where if you don't believe, you kinda get your head rolled... that really help the faith bit. Then there are situations so dire and overwhelming that people would just want to believe that there is some higher power out there who will look after them if only they have faith etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2017)

> Then there are situations so dire and overwhelming that people would just want to believe that there is some higher power out there who will look after them if only they have faith etc.




Unfortunately people believe that Allah will look after them in Heaven if they follow his commandments on earth, like killing infidels etc.

That's where the trouble starts.


----------



## noco (11 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> It is hard to understand why in the 21st century there are people literally living in the 7th century and physically perpetuating what someone may or may not have spoken or written. Belief can be toxic.




How can you deny the fact that all this happening today and not the 7th century.


----------



## luutzu (11 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Unfortunately people believe that Allah will look after them in Heaven if they follow his commandments on earth, like killing infidels etc.
> 
> That's where the trouble starts.




Beside a few crazies, nobody read any book then go start a war. Definitely not against armies with overwhelming force while your band of terrorists got a few boxes of ammo and RPGs. 

It'd be a whole lot easier to follow the more peaceful, nicer passages in any religious text. Like not be a total prick, turn the other cheek. To go on Jihad? That's suicidal. 

So why are many of them doing it? Because of Islam? Seriously?

Look at Al Qaeda and what became the Taliban. They were recruited, trained and armed by the CIA to fight against the Soviets. They were considered by the US to be "moderate" and heroic freedom fighters; got invited to the White House and have tea with Reagan - true story.

They then commit act of terrorism against the Soviets in Afghanistan and its other territories. That stopped almost immediately when the Soviets withdraw from Afghanistan. 

Allah and the Koran ceased to exist then too?

Why did Al Qaeda and Bin Laden turn and attack the US and its interests? Religion? They hate the Western way of sex and alcohol? Maybe they feel that their oil and finite resources ought to belong to their people. Maybe they see the West as their enemies because "we" have military bases on their land, propping up despots and tyrants.

All that could just be fictions of their imagination because... we don't have or do any of those?

But that's geo politic, war and peace stuff. 

As to the normal, common people... when you're between a few imperial powers cracking down on a bunch of terrorists; where livelihood is gone and food for the family comes from working for either one of them; where you could walk down the street and be blown up by terrorists... maybe the most sensible way of keeping your sanity and have some hope of a brighter future is to pray and talk to higher beings.


----------



## noco (11 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Beside a few crazies, nobody read any book then go start a war. Definitely not against armies with overwhelming force while your band of terrorists got a few boxes of ammo and RPGs.
> 
> It'd be a whole lot easier to follow the more peaceful, nicer passages in any religious text. Like not be a total prick, turn the other cheek. To go on Jihad? That's suicidal.
> 
> ...




This is the problem Luu, the Islamic terrorist work on fear and intimidation.....They want you to remember the R-$ole who drove down the street in Melbourne killing 6 people including a 3 month old baby....They want you to remember the the two people killed in the Lynd Cafe in Sydney......They want you to remember how a soldier was run down and beheaded in London.....They want you to remember the recent riots in Melbourne and the blood they shed.

They want you live in fear that you or one of your family might be  run down and killed by another maniac.

Pray as much as you like my Luu, but it will not stop these tirades from doing what they are doing.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> They want you to remember the R-$ole who drove down the street in Melbourne killing 6 people including a 3 month old baby...




Where is the evidence that that incident was terrorism related ?


----------



## Value Collector (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> Yes you may be right but nevertheless 93% of all  unemployed migrants is still a burden on the tax payer.




It's not 93% of migrants, it's 93% of refugees in their first 12months in the country.


----------



## Value Collector (11 February 2017)

John Oliver delivers the facts about the refugee crisis.


----------



## Value Collector (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> This is the problem Luu, the Islamic terrorist work on fear and intimidation.....





Yep, and it works, you and the other Pauline Hanson types are scared and intimidated.

It's funny, the American far right call us guys with some socially left views snowflakes, yet they are the ones in hysterical fear, who feel they need to carry hand guns to go and get their groceries.


----------



## noco (11 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, and it works, you and the other Pauline Hanson types are scared and intimidated.
> 
> It's funny, the American far right call us guys with some socially left views snowflakes, yet they are the ones in hysterical fear, who feel they need to carry hand guns to go and get their groceries.




VC, I hope it does not happen to you or one of your innocent family walking down the street and then mowed down by some crazy Islamic terrorist.

I am so pleased I don't live in any of the major cites where this is more likely to happen.


----------



## Value Collector (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> VC, I hope it does not happen to you or one of your innocent family walking down the street and then mowed down by some crazy Islamic terrorist.
> 
> I am so pleased I don't live in any of the major cites where this is more likely to happen.



Lol, there you go again, trying to help out the terrorists by spreading fear, you are basically helping them out, Isis would love to know that you fear them.

Why the hell would I be scared of something that has such a low probability, I will just live my life carefree and enjoy my self, I would never let fear of terrorism affect me.

If I were to worry about anything cutting my life short it would be heart attack or cancer, heart attack kills an Australian every 12mins, but even that won't stop me enjoying a bowl of garlic fries with a couple of beers.

You have to enjoy life, why be scared of everything, maybe you need to stop watching the news, it's bad for you I think.


----------



## noco (11 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Lol, there you go again, trying to help out the terrorists by spreading fear, you are basically helping them out, Isis would love to know that you fear them.
> 
> Why the hell would I be scared of something that has such a low probability, I will just live my life carefree and enjoy my self, I would never let fear of terrorism affect me.
> 
> ...




VC, you may be an exception who is very brave or naive but there are thousands of people who do fear for their lives not knowing if they will be the next to suffer at the hands of some Islamic terrorist.

There seems to be a small group on this Forum who jump to protect and condone the Islamic activities in this country of ours upon which in my younger days was not known except for some minor skirmish between the Catholics and the Protestants, but there was no killing.

May I suggest to those who do condone Islam, would you be prepared to take into your house just one refugee to feed, clothe and accommodate...Just one?


----------



## luutzu (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> VC, you may be an exception who is very brave or naive but there are thousands of people who do fear for their lives not knowing if they will be the next to suffer at the hands of some Islamic terrorist.
> 
> There seems to be a small group on this Forum who jump to protect and condone the Islamic activities in this country of ours upon which in my younger days was not known except for some minor skirmish between the Catholics and the Protestants, but there was no killing.
> 
> May I suggest to those who do condone Islam, would you be prepared to take into your house just one refugee to feed, clothe and accommodate...Just one?




No one condone terrorism noco. Come on, that's insane. And definitely not VC. I mean the dude literally went to war to stop that kind of stuff. 

I'm repeating myself here.. .that I've heard a few investigative journalist and historians saying that before deciding to liberate Iraq... in the planning sessions, Bush, Cheney and co.; Blair and his crew; I'm assuming Howard and his merry men too... that each of the country's intelligence agencies advised them that if Saddam is remove, there will be a shiet storm in the ME. And that there will be higher risk of blowback and terrorist attack on the homeland.

Those guys know of the risks, thought it's "worth" whatever gains there are to be had.. and here we are, 14 years later the entire region is in flame and we have Trump starting to take over from Saudi Arabia in Yemen; rattling a few sabres against Iran - possibly adding it to the 8 wars they're simultaneously waging. 

Who in their right mind does that?

---------

Back to being alarm or alert at home... know how many Australians die from suicide each year? Die from road or work accidents? Poor heathcare? Drug and alcohol abuses?

Fund programmes to help counsel, or educate or fund jobs programmes... that'll not only save those lives, it'll go a long way in creating a better society to live in.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> No one condone terrorism noco. Come on, that's insane. And definitely not VC. I mean the dude literally went to war to stop that kind of stuff.




We have seen that large concentrations of Muslims cause trouble wherever they are.

We can't have our foreign policy dictated by terrorists, that's just stupid.

ISIS and their kind are criminals no matter how honorable you think their cause is. They need to be wiped out not pandered to.


----------



## luutzu (11 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> We have seen that large concentrations of Muslims cause trouble wherever they are.
> 
> We can't have our foreign policy dictated by terrorists, that's just stupid.
> 
> ISIS and their kind are criminals no matter how honorable you think their cause is. They need to be wiped out not pandered to.




Thing is, you can't "wiped out" terrorists. Haven't we been trying that since... ever? 

I'm not suggesting we "pander" or let anyone dictate our policies. Just that we might want to be smart about the kind of policies to follow, rather than just do whatever stupid nonsense because we can.

So if we're alright with going into any country uninvited, setting up military bases and shoot anything we don't like... then we should grow up a bit and think that ey, maybe there are people who doesn't like these kind of stuff happening on their soil. 

Then we can shrug and say, yea that's too bad they don't like it. Suck it up. Might makes right and, as the ancient Greek Historian observed, the strong do as they please while the weak suffer as they must.

That's a realist view of history and current event. It's preferable to these PC nonsense about something being wrong with Islam; look how horrible and backward and vile Islam and Muslims are. that they're all terrorists, always causing trouble and murdering innocent people because they somehow don't see "US" going into their country to do good for them.

Isn't it the responsibility of responsible citizens in a democracy to understand the facts, see the reality... then once we're aware of it, decide. Then if we think that what we do is "worth" all the sacrifices our people have to take on, alright, sacrifice it is then.

Just it's a bit much to begrudge the sacrifices we have to make as consequences of our action.

This is not to excuse violence or to condone terrorism in any shape or form. It is to say that when we wage wars on people, don't expect them to play nice. There's only one Gandhi and one Dr Martin Luther King Jr.


----------



## noco (11 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Where is the evidence that that incident was terrorism related ?




This maniac is a Greek Islamic Kurd.

Daniel Andrews has gone out of way to cover it up as a terrorist act as it is a refection on his lack of action.

This was a terrorist screaming out Allah Akbar as he did his doe nuts out side Flinders Street Station.. 

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/01/...-into-pedestrians-cops-say-not-terror-related


----------



## noco (11 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Thing is, you can't "wiped out" terrorists. Haven't we been trying that since... ever?
> 
> I'm not suggesting we "pander" or let anyone dictate our policies. Just that we might want to be smart about the kind of policies to follow, rather than just do whatever stupid nonsense because we can.
> 
> ...




The Muslims are the perpetrators of violent acts against the people of the Western world and you say be nice to them.

What should we do, just let them run rampant over us?

It is a case of kill or be killed...Take your pick.


----------



## luutzu (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> The Muslims are the perpetrators of violent acts against the people of the Western world and you say be nice to them.
> 
> What should we do, just let them run rampant over us?
> 
> It is a case of kill or be killed...Take your pick.




It's not black and white. And not every Muslim are ISIS. Not every rebel group in all those countries are ISIS either... we know this because the CIA and the chiefs in Washington are arming certain groups among them, right? 

Wars are pretty easy to understand: both sides think they're doing good, ultimately. Both think God's on their side. 

Anyway, to quote the Yellow Emperor when he was asked that doesn't he know that Putin is a killer... to which he says... Are we so innocent? We don't do nasty stuff? 

An eye for an eye and the world will go blind, says Gandhi. 

Let's have a 100 year wars on the sand monkeys and jack that trillion dollar spending to a hundred or two, says the military industrial complex.


----------



## noco (11 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's not black and white. And not every Muslim are ISIS. Not every rebel group in all those countries are ISIS either... we know this because the CIA and the chiefs in Washington are arming certain groups among them, right?
> 
> Wars are pretty easy to understand: both sides think they're doing good, ultimately. Both think God's on their side.
> 
> ...




From the horses mouth......If you do not believe in the Koran or Sharia law then you are not a Muslim.


----------



## Value Collector (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> there are thousands of people who do fear for their lives not knowing if they will be the next to suffer at the hands of some Islamic terrorist.




Yes, and this called "irrational fear", I would like to see the rights of the everyday moderate Muslim protected from the people who's irrational fear makes them want to attack or deny rights to innocent Muslims trying to go about everyday life.

Here's the thing, you seem to think every Muslim is a terrorist, that's simply not true, and you think that defending the rights of everyday Muslims is some how protecting Isis, this is also not true.

More Muslims are being killed by Isis than any other group, moderates have just as much to fear as anyone else.


----------



## luutzu (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> From the horses mouth......If you do not believe in the Koran or Sharia law then you are not a Muslim.






Noco, if NSW want to go to war with Queensland, I bet you we can just spend two minutes and find a few nutjob up North to justify why we the entire state ought to be taken out.

Maybe it's possible that we're misinformed, are given false choices of we either kill them or they kill us. Maybe we can just all get along and nobody needs to die over anything.

Maybe we Australians ought to learn a few lessons from the past. That going along with our Great Protector tend to harm (some) of our own soldiers, waste some of our own treasures... and make us too reliant on others for our national security.

That's a small price to pay when that Great Protector is all big and powerful. But as Mother England have shown, when she over extends her empire and a couple of serious up and coming industrial power thought to challenge her... you know, not your average colonial rebels and terrorists... when that happen, our Great Protector might retreat and leave us hanging. What then?

Trust me, the world has not had two equivalent military power facing off each other since WW2. Maybe the "Cuban" Missile Crisis. And in those 13 days, the world would be been blown to bits if the Soviets didn't flinch, or if one Soviet officer didn't go against launching a nuke from his submarine.

As bad as the wars in the ME is, it's a side show if the US and its allies (incl us Aussies) go to war with China or Russia. Either side might not be smart enough to flinch this time.


----------



## Value Collector (11 February 2017)

noco said:


> From the horses mouth......If you do not believe in the Koran or Sharia law then you are not a Muslim.





You can find crazy Christian, Jewish, Hindu, buddist etc etc groups, to try and say that those little crazy group represent the views of all is just silly.

I can upload a video of a Christian preacher calling for gays to be killed, is this the view of all Christians?  No.

Do you understand that there are over 10,000 types of Christian? The same is true for Muslims, all the groups believe different stuff.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> More Muslims are being killed by Isis than any other group, moderates have just as much to fear as anyone else.




True, but you can't deny that there are unknown number of jihadists in this country who will go and fight in Syria for ISIS and then try to come back here and continue the jihad in Australia.

What should we do about them ?

Stripping their citizenship and not letting them back into the country seems reasonable to me.

And what of the ones who don't try to leave but plot jihad here ? Two have been arrested recently as have a number of others. Imo they should be held indefinitely as religious indoctrination is a mental illness and they should have to prove that they have been cured before they get out of gaol.


----------



## Value Collector (11 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> True, but you can't deny that there are unknown number of jihadists in this country who will go and fight in Syria for ISIS and then try to come back here and continue the jihad in Australia.
> 
> What should we do about them ?
> 
> ...




I can agree there is an unknown number.

And we should continue the great police and intelligence work we have been doing that has caught some of them in the past, we should charge them for their crimes and even boot them if they aren't citizens, 

But you just have to remember, these "unknown numbers" are very likely tiny numbers, and the threat is very small, but if we want to be hard asses, and treat all moderate muslims like crap as if they are terrorists, we are likely to grow this unknown number significantly.

You know I think religions are silly, and believe moving to a more secular society is the way to go, but I don't believe taking rights away from one religious group helps at all, I fact it makes it worse.


----------



## Value Collector (11 February 2017)

Here is a Christian pastor preaching violence and hate, should we believe these views represent all Christians?


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You know I think religions are silly, and believe moving to a more secular society is the way to go, but I don't believe taking rights away from one religious group helps at all, I fact it makes it worse.




So what rights are you saying are being taken away ?

It may come down to banning the burka, but I think that can be justified in terms of crime prevention.

If we put a moratorium on immigration from Muslim countries, I think that would be generally supported in the community, as we have a right to let into the country whoever we want and refuse access to those we don't.

Other than that, Muslims still have the right to freedom of worship, freedom of speech etc the same as everyone else so I can't see where rights are being taken away from them.


----------



## Tisme (11 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Other than that, Muslims still have the right to freedom of worship, freedom of speech etc the same as everyone else so I can't see where rights are being taken away from them.





I seem to recall that right only exists at a federal level (e.g. territories). The States can prohibit, establish and regulate religions within in their boundaries under the constitution.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2017)

Looks like you are correct.



> *Section 116 of the Constitution of Australia* precludes the Commonwealth of Australia (_i.e._, the federal parliament) from making laws for establishing any religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the free exercise of any religion. Section 116 also provides that no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth. The product of a compromise in the pre-Federation constitutional conventions, Section 116 is based on similar provisions in the United States Constitution. However, Section 116 is more narrowly drafted than its US counterpart, and does not preclude the states of Australia from making such laws.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_116_of_the_Constitution_of_Australia




However I don't see any examples of States discriminating against Muslims currently.


----------



## noco (11 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Noco, if NSW want to go to war with Queensland, I bet you we can just spend two minutes and find a few nutjob up North to justify why we the entire state ought to be taken out.
> 
> Maybe it's possible that we're misinformed, are given false choices of we either kill them or they kill us. Maybe we can just all get along and nobody needs to die over anything.
> 
> ...




So with all that rhetoric, what has that got to do with the interview with that Muslim?

He clearly stated, "if you do not believe in Sharia Law and the teachings of the Koran, you are not a Muslim".

I just can't follow your post...The chances of QLD and NSW going to war is nothing more than a pipe dream....I can't believe you would have ever thought about it.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So what rights are you saying are being taken away ?
> 
> It may come down to banning the burka, but I think that can be justified in terms of crime prevention.
> 
> ...




Firstly, which crimes are currently happening that are problem enough by people wearing burkas to warrant banning the burka? 

There have been calls for all sorts of things that are unfair against Muslims, eg religious tests for citizenship, bans against building mosques, 

Not to mention the general abuse by members of the public.

Noco's type are running around like scared little children (playing right in the hands of Isis) hating on garden vararity Muslims, which as I have said does nothing but cause more polarisation and lead to more radicalisation.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

noco said:


> He clearly stated, "if you do not believe in Sharia Law and the teachings of the Koran, you are not a Muslim".




So what, he doesn't get to decide what a Muslims is any more than anyone else.

If I find a quote of another muslim saying "you don't have to believe in sharia law to be a good Muslim" then what, you will find Muslims don't agree on a lot of stuff just like Christians don't agree on a lot of stuff.

You shouldn't take the opinion of one small group as if it applied to all


----------



## Tisme (12 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Looks like you are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> However I don't see any examples of States discriminating against Muslims currently.





Making them take their enslaved wive's masks off for identification would probably rank up their as a gross insult against puerile Islamic men?

I just don't know what we get out of allowing another creed and cunning into the country? Surely the net upside is marginal at best. We have already been lumbered with legislation we 40s&50s born never dreamed of as kids.... laws to force us into a plastic politeness, laws prohibiting us expressing our own hurt at having to put up with a lay about sky fairy culture invading our sense.

Why is it that you go into a city on a work day and their are people from third world countries all over the place....where are they getting the money and why aren't they working? Where is the money coming from for Muslim women to go to university in their droves .... i hope it's not from some infantile idealogue in govt thinking education of women will stop the Islamic nemesis?

How long did it take for the similarly stubborn catholic Irish to assimilate into Oz culture? Answer = the descendants still think they are firkin Oirsh and Mick; that's how long.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:
			
		

> There have been calls for all sorts of things that are unfair against Muslims, eg religious tests for citizenship, bans against building mosques,




I suppose it's a matter of what people consider a "right". I think we have been here before but if a public building refuses to install a prayer room for Muslims, is that a breach of their "rights" to observe their religion ?

If Halal food is not available in shops is that a breach of their "rights" to observe their religion ?

If planning permission to build a Mosque is refused is that a breach of their rights ? They could obviously observe their religion in their own homes.

They come voluntarily to this country so they have to make an effort to adjust their own expectations rather than insisting that we adjust ours.


----------



## noco (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So what, he doesn't get to decide what a Muslims is any more than anyone else.
> 
> *If I find a quote of another muslim saying "you don't have to believe in sharia law to be a good Muslim" then what, you will find Muslims don't agree on a lot of stuff just like Christians don't agree on a lot of stuff.*
> 
> You shouldn't take the opinion of one small group as if it applied to all




Where is your link?


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I suppose it's a matter of what people consider a "right". I think we have been here before but if a public building refuses to install a prayer room for Muslims, is that a breach of their "rights" to observe their religion ?
> 
> If Halal food is not available in shops is that a breach of their "rights" to observe their religion ?
> 
> ...




We can start with the UN's universal charter for human rights, refusing to accept or deny refugees based on their religion would be a breach of human rights, yet people like Pauline Hanson are calling for that.

You kind of have it backwards, offcourse "not stocking halal foods" isn't a breach, but calling to ban halal is.

If people want to ban a mosques, yet they would be fine with a Catholic Church, yes that's a breach.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

noco said:


> Where is your link?




Scroll down to the bar chart on the right, you will see in a lot of countries Muslims don't support sharia law.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/


----------



## noco (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Scroll down to the bar chart on the right, you will see in a lot of countries Muslims don't support sharia law.
> 
> http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/




VC, one thing I find it hard to believe is that very American Muslims are not up to speed with Islam and Sharia law......Why didn't the author include the USA?



Jim Good • 7 months ago

A poll taken of muslims living on America finds that 51 percent think sharia law should be enacted in America.
Another poll done by this very research company found that young muslims say they are more loyal to islam than the U.S. The percentage was 63 percent. I wonder why this didnt find its way into the article ?
Peeeeeewww, something stinks here. !


----------



## overhang (12 February 2017)

noco said:


> A poll taken of muslims living on America finds that 51 percent think sharia law should be enacted in America.
> Another poll done by this very research company found that young muslims say they are more loyal to islam than the U.S. The percentage was 63 percent. I wonder why this didnt find its way into the article ?
> Peeeeeewww, something stinks here. !




A poll in a western country which such a high % raises eyebrows until I read a bit more about the poll.
The poll was an online poll with a sample size of 600, they had no way of verifying if they were actually Muslims answering the questions or not.  
http://bridge.georgetown.edu/new-poll-on-american-muslims-is-grounded-in-bias-riddled-with-flaws/


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If people want to ban a mosques, yet they would be fine with a Catholic Church, yes that's a breach.




It may just come down to the fact that more people want a Catholic Church on a particular site than want a Mosque. 

That's not discrimination, it's just benefitting the majority.


----------



## luutzu (12 February 2017)

noco said:


> So with all that rhetoric, what has that got to do with the interview with that Muslim?
> 
> He clearly stated, "if you do not believe in Sharia Law and the teachings of the Koran, you are not a Muslim".
> 
> I just can't follow your post...The chances of QLD and NSW going to war is nothing more than a pipe dream....I can't believe you would have ever thought about it.




Was trying to say that we're watching propaganda. You know, putting up dots close enough that we paint "our own" picture... we report, you decide. 

So here's a seriously hardcore religious nut, listen to what he says and you decide whether or not all Muslims are like that; Here's a bunch of terrorists doing murder... you tell us if they're all murdering, crazed religious fanatics.

Where are the moderate, normal, everyday kinda Muslims? These are representatives of all 1.5 billion of them!

So you see why we need to spend all that money, some family's kids life, to defend freedom and our way of life?


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It may just come down to the fact that more people want a Catholic Church on a particular site than want a Mosque.
> 
> That's not discrimination, it's just benefitting the majority.



What are you talking about?

I am saying if a group of Muslims purchase some land, do all the planning and stuff correctly, but then they are denied their rights to operate a mosque simply because they are Muslim, where if they had been a group of Catholics they would have been allowed.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

noco said:


> VC, one thing I find it hard to believe is that very American Muslims are not up to speed with Islam and Sharia law......Why didn't the author include the USA?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Your claim was that you can't be a Muslim unless you agree with sharia law.

My position is that there are a lot of Muslims who don't agree with sharia law and don't want it as a government rule.

The logical fallacy you committed is called the "no true Scotsman fallacy"

Example: Angus declares that Scotsmen do not put sugar on their porridge, to which Lachlan points out that he is a Scotsman and puts sugar on his porridge. Furious, like a true Scot, Angus yells that no true Scotsman sugars his porridge.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> I am saying if a group of Muslims purchase some land, do all the planning and stuff correctly, but then they are denied their rights to operate a mosque simply because they are Muslim, where if they had been a group of Catholics they would have been allowed.




In that case you would be right. 

I'm talking about a case where there are rival bids for purchase of public land ie either for a Catholic Church or a mosque, then someone has to win and it's usually the one that represents more people.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Where are the moderate, normal, everyday kinda Muslims?




Just going about their business, not making the news because they don't hold extreme beliefs.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> In that case you would be right.
> 
> I'm talking about a case where there are rival bids for purchase of public land ie either for a Catholic Church or a mosque, then someone has to win and it's usually the one that represents more people.



Does that even happen?

And in any case, it should be the one paying the most dollars to buy the public land, because none of the religions represent a large enough amount of the population that they should be subsidised by acquiring land at cheaper than market rates.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> it should be the one paying the most dollars to buy the public land,




That would be the Catholics then.


----------



## Tink (12 February 2017)

Our heritage has always had a Christian Church based in the area, to cater for the community.

Based on our Christian values as a nation.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That would be the Catholics then.




I don't think the Catholic Church is that active in land purchases that they are bidding on every government parcel of land that comes up, but of course yes, if the catholic was the highest bid they can have it.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

Tink said:


> Our heritage has always had a Christian Church based in the area, to cater for the community.




So what? What does that have to do with denying Muslims the right to build their place of worship?


----------



## Wysiwyg (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> John Oliver delivers the facts about the refugee crisis.



The challenge is the people who come into the country, use the resources, get fed, clothed and schooled by the country then go out and kill innocent people. Boston bombers, truck nutters, shooters, 11-9 etc.. Sure they are few but it only takes one to destroy the lives of many. Vetting and community vigilance the best defence.


----------



## noco (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> We can start with the UN's universal charter for human rights, refusing to accept or deny refugees based on their religion would be a breach of human rights, yet people like Pauline Hanson are calling for that.
> 
> You kind of have it backwards, offcourse "not stocking halal foods" isn't a breach, but calling to ban halal is.
> 
> If people want to ban a mosques, yet they would be fine with a Catholic Church, yes that's a breach.




I think the UN should start with the human rights of women in the ME being tortured instead of worrying about some unruly kid in a Townsville youth detention center with a spit hood on his head.

Just look at this barbaric mob of Muslim A$$holes betting the life out of a women....What a mob of cowards....I also watched a video a day or two ago where this woman was stoned to death....Even her two sons helped on the act......She had the blood drained out of body until she collapsed and died.

Do you go along with behavior and would you be happy to see this sort of thing in Australia

So I think my friend you have got your priorities wrong.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

noco said:


> I think the UN should start with the human rights of women in the ME being tortured instead of worrying about some unruly kid in a Townsville youth detention center with a spit hood on his head.
> 
> Just look at this barbaric mob of Muslim A$$holes betting the life out of a women....What a mob of cowards....I also watched a video a day or two ago where this woman was stoned to death....Even her two sons helped on the act......She had the blood drained out of body until she collapsed and died.
> 
> ...





Refugees are fleeing that sort of barbaric behaviour, and I want to assist them, you are saying you don't want to allow refugees to flee to safety, so it's you that has your priorities wrong.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Vetting and community vigilance the best defence.




I am not saying we shouldn't conduct vetting, I am just saying that deciding based on religion alone is not only stupid, but a breach of basic human rights.

I am also against people trying to Instil irrational fear into the community, especially if the purpose is to cause hate against a minority.

Noco is terrified of terrorists, yet he is more likely to die in a car crash, but I bet he doesn't hesitate to jump in a car, there is healthy fear and then there is phobias, if you are scared of terrorism, you have a phobia, and it's the purpose of terrorism, so congratulations Noco, you are the patsy in the Isis poker game.


----------



## noco (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Refugees are fleeing that sort of barbaric behaviour, and I want to assist them, you are saying you don't want to allow refugees to flee to safety, so it's you that has your priorities wrong.




And just how do you propose to assist those women?

This conversation was about the UNHRC wanting to investigate some unruly kid in the Townsville youth detention center who continuously spat at officers and that is the reason they placed a spit hood on his head...... I emphasized the fact the the UNHCR should get their priorities in order.

The way things are going ATM in Australia with almost daily demonstrations  and riots in Melbourne and Sydney and very few are being arrested particularly in Melbourne under Daniel Andrews, it won't many years down the track when Sharia law is introduced here and you will have the same barbaric acts carried out by Muslims.......A woman has to prove her innocence where as  Muslim man has to be proven guilty.


----------



## noco (12 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am not saying we shouldn't conduct vetting, I am just saying that deciding based on religion alone is not only stupid, but a breach of basic human rights.
> 
> I am also against people trying to Instil irrational fear into the community, especially if the purpose is to cause hate against a minority.
> 
> Noco is terrified of terrorists, yet he is more likely to die in a car crash, but I bet he doesn't hesitate to jump in a car, there is healthy fear and then there is phobias, if you are scared of terrorism, you have a phobia, and it's the purpose of terrorism, so congratulations Noco, you are the patsy in the Isis poker game.




I think you are romancing with your self stating I am terrified of terrorists.

I live in a part of the world where, we at this stage, don't have a problem. 

Keep it clean without  the name calling.

I do not see why we have to put up with these Muslim hoods disrupting the daily lives of people mainly in Sydney and Melbourne....I am sure there would be some people fearing will it happen to them with some Muslim maniac driving along a footpath killing innocent people and whist several explosive plots have been foiled, it will happen as they get smarter...Car bombers.....Suicide bombers.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Tink said:


> Our heritage has always had a Christian Church based in the area, to cater for the community.
> 
> Based on our Christian values as a nation.




What part of that cherished Christian Value that will be offended or in any way damaged by permitting Muslims to build a place of worship?

Christians can't even use one of the Commandment to not worship any other God but Himself... because Allah and God are both the same Creator. I mean, there's not a lot of difference between the two religion.

Now, ignore religion for a minute... The great Australian value that Christians built... that system and culture does permit freedom of religion, yes? Are Australian laws broken? Then can we conclude from that that no Christian value are broken too?


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> I think you are romancing with your self stating I am terrified of terrorists.
> 
> I live in a part of the world where, we at this stage, don't have a problem.
> 
> ...




Terrorism is a real problem, no one's making light of it. But I think the point is to not let them win by being terrorised and do something stupid ourselves.

We do have security and intelligence agencies watching over us all... and those people aren't daisies when it comes to cracking heads and taking names noco.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> What part of that cherished Christian Value that will be offended or in any way damaged by permitting Muslims to build a place of worship?
> 
> Christians can't even use one of the Commandment to not worship any other God but Himself... because Allah and God are both the same Creator. I mean, there's not a lot of difference between the two religion.
> 
> Now, ignore religion for a minute... The great Australian value that Christians built... that system and culture does permit freedom of religion, yes? Are Australian laws broken? Then can we conclude from that that no Christian value are broken too?





You're seeing Islam in action in Indonesia at the moment, where the public are being commanded by their religious leaders to lynch the Christian governor of Jakarta for blasphemy, no doubt to foist a hardline Islam on the nation.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> The way things are going ATM in Australia with* almost daily demonstrations and riots in Melbourne and Sydney*




Really ?


----------



## noco (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Terrorism is a real problem, no one's making light of it. But I think the point is to not let them win by being terrorised and do something stupid ourselves.
> 
> We do have security and intelligence agencies watching over us all... and those people aren't daisies when it comes to cracking heads and taking names noco.




Yes an our intelligence agencies are doing a great job but it is not fool proof and sooner or later the big will slip though the net.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> You're seeing Islam in action in Indonesia at the moment, where the public are being commanded by their religious leaders to lynch the Christian governor of Jakarta for blasphemy, no doubt to foist a hardline Islam on the nation.




Read before that it's not just because he's a Christian.

Note how he's a Christian and a Governor? How did he get there if the Muslims-majority country's Muslims didn't also voted for him.

Can't recall what he did exactly, but it's something about him bashing Islam the religion; biases against Islam in favour of his Christianity.

Cana't really do that bro. That's like an Aussie politicians going into politics to share the wealth back to the poor and working class.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> Yes an our intelligence agencies are doing a great job but it is not fool proof and sooner or later the big will slip though the net.




Yes, but we can't lock them all up in some concentration camp, can we? Can't go the Final Solution route either. 

Seriously though... there is no such thing as total safety. Not from any thing, not from any group of people.

If we make policies that can somehow promise to provide that, then after we and our Yellow Emperor came out of Court for violation of the Constitution and stuff, I got a Harbour Bridge to sell you.

There are bad drivers, dangerous drivers... should we ban all Asians from driving? ha ha [I can say that because I'm Asian, alright?]

Anyway, as the Chinese says, when the cauldron is over boiling, remove fire from under it. Not freakin add more fuel, thump our chest and ask them to bring it on.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> your self stating I am terrified of terrorists.




You actually said you are glad you don't live in one of the big cities where it is likely to happen, this means along with all your other comments expressing fear and worry, that it's something you are afraid off.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> when the cauldron is over boiling, remove fire from under it.





Sounds good to me.

If Muslims are causing problems, don't bring more in.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sounds good to me.
> 
> If Muslims are causing problems, don't bring more in.




Muslims have been here for generations. I went to schools with some of them... and suddenly they're all terrorists. Suddenly their religion will make them criminal and violent. Come on.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Terrorism is a real problem, no one's making light of it. But I think the point is to not let them win by being terrorised and do something stupid ourselves.
> 
> .




Big vicious dogs can be scary in certain situations, It's rational and healthy to have a spike of fear as a German Shepard charges you, that fear should be an alarm bell that makes you take action.

However,

A phobia of dogs in general, that sees you crossing the street to avoid a puppy, or avoiding public places or parks incase you see a golden retriever or sees you calling for all dogs to be muzzled, is irrational.

I see the people that are scared of moderate islam and want to ban the burqa, or who let the fear of terrorism change their actions in everyday life as being like the people scared of puppies, with the dog phobia.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Muslims have been here for generations. I went to schools with some of them... and suddenly they're all terrorists. Suddenly their religion will make them criminal and violent. Come on.




No one is saying they are ALL terrorists, but they ALL follow an ideology that is causing terrorism around the world.

It's not rocket science to realise that the more Muslims there are , the more likely it is that the destructive ideology will spread.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> .
> 
> If Muslims are causing problems, .




Are they though?

if there was a few christians causing trouble would you tar all christians with the same brush? 

Thats one of the problems, people are happy to concede the views and actions of some christians don't represent all christians, but when it comes to muslims, they all get put in the same basket.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Are they though?




Of course some of them are.

http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...d/news-story/86fc734df0963e21fe038c0eecce7d80

I believe in being nice to and networking with with moderate Muslims to prevent attacks, but the simple fact is that the more Muslims there are in this country the more attacks there are likely to be and the harder prevention becomes.


----------



## noco (13 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course some of them are.
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...d/news-story/86fc734df0963e21fe038c0eecce7d80
> 
> I believe in being nice to and networking with with moderate Muslims to prevent attacks, but the simple fact is that the more Muslims there are in this country the more attacks there are likely to be and the harder prevention becomes.




Rumpy, haven't been saying for years........The more Muslims we have the bigger muscles they get.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course some of them are.
> 
> .




What percentage of muslims are likely to commit acts of violence in this country?


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> What percentage of muslims are likely to commit acts of violence in this country?




Who knows ?

The stronger their numbers are the more likely they will commit terrorist acts. 

You have read about Belgium ?


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Who knows ?





Well considering the large number of muslims here, and the very very very small number of terror attacks, wouldn't you say the number is very very very small.

Maybe even less than 0.001%?

So that means that 99.999% of muslims will never commit a terror attack, don't you think bringing in unfair rules against those 99.999% is likely to cause a bunch of them to feel we are being aggressive to them, I think there is much more danger in oppressing the 99.999% for the sake of the 0.0001%, I mean if banning the burqa and treating them like foreigners turns the 0.001% into a 0.005% thats a huge increase caused by us.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> Rumpy, haven't been saying for years........The more Muslims we have the bigger muscles they get.




In the last 10 years, what has killed more Australians?

Islamic Terrorism or Alcohol fuelled violence and drink driving?
Considering muslims don't drink, maybe increasing the number of muslims in the population makes us safer.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> Rumpy, haven't been saying for years........The more Muslims we have the bigger muscles they get.




In the real world, terrorism doesn't work that way. 

First, if "their numbers" get out of control, they'll vote and the Australian gov't will listen and obey. Just like how all democracies around the world do and implement whatever policies the majority of its people wanted. Right?

So when the gov't do the Muslim's bidding, that kind of terrorism is no longer "terrorism", but are Freedom something or other.

That and terrorists tend not to have Mosques and Town Hall meetings discussing Allah and death to infidels. They tend to either be professional terrorist working in cells like that of 9/11. Or they are just some lone and crazed loonies with criminal records, no hope, hitting the dead end and thought to take it upon themselves to go out for some "cause".

The more we, or our politician, or Trump, talk rubbish and do some blanket ban on all Muslims... i.e. all Muslims from those 7 countries are potential terrorists and there's no way we can tell who's what... that drive fear into the people, turn them against innocent people; alienate them and further inflame those idiots who want to commit crime and mass murder.

Try and understand this from our own war planners' perspective... That we being a Democracy where too much civil liberties and rights have been won; where the populous can protest peacefully, can vote and have their say... How do you get around that and go on foreign adventures at their expense?

Easy. You drive the fear of Arabs, Allah into them; you whistles Christian value, our value against their barbarity etc. etc. And if there's blowback? That's just more proof of the need to wage some 7 wars on "them"; proof that privacy, legal principle of innocent until proven guilty... those too must be sacrificed for freedom and liberty.

Every country and regime and gov't does these kind of thing. We aren't the exception.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> In the last 10 years, what has killed more Australians?
> 
> Islamic Terrorism or Alcohol fuelled violence and drink driving?
> Considering muslims don't drink, maybe increasing the number of muslims in the population makes us safer.




If we rank the causes of death in Australia and put anywhere near the amount of funding and effort into preventing them, we'd save tens of thousands of lives a year.

Heard that in the US, there's some 20,000+ suicides a year. A fraction of the money they spent on anti-terrorism to provide counselling or community outreach or just informing family and friends of the issue so they can be aware if their family member need help... I bet a lot of those death could be prevented.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> If we rank the causes of death in Australia and put anywhere near the amount of funding and effort into preventing them, we'd save tens of thousands of lives a year.
> 
> Heard that in the US, there's some 20,000+ suicides a year. A fraction of the money they spent on anti-terrorism to provide counselling or community outreach or just informing family and friends of the issue so they can be aware if their family member need help... I bet a lot of those death could be prevented.




2996 Innocent people died in the world trade centre terrorist attack.

That same year in the USA, 2932 innocent people died due to drunk drivers.

People call to Ban Muslim immigrants, due to "terrorism risk", but I have never heard of anyone calling to ban Australian, British, Irish or German immigrants due to "Drinking culture" associated with those countries and the added risk of drinking related deaths they would bring with them.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> 2996 Innocent people died in the world trade centre terrorist attack.
> 
> That same year in the USA, 2932 innocent people died due to drunk drivers.




Both terrorism and drink driving can be reduced. You can take licenses away from drink drivers and lock them up  and you can keep out people who swear allegiance to a violent ideology.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Both terrorism and drink driving can be reduced. You can take licenses away from drink drivers and lock them up  and you can keep out people who swear allegiance to a violent ideology.




Big difference.

By "taking licenses away from drink drivers and locking them up", you are targeting the people that are committing the crimes, I totally agree with that.

By "Targeting muslims in general" you are not targeting the criminals, you are targeting an entire group, so its more like targeting drinkers in general or people from drinking cultures, rather than the actual drink drivers.

You must be able to see the difference, you are choosing to allow drinkers to have all their rights until they breach the law, where as you are happy to reduce the rights of the muslims before they have broken the law.

it would be like banning people of British decent from driving or going out on weekends because they are from a drinking culture, that inspires violence or risky behaviour.

Most muslims don't "swear allegiance to a violent ideology",


----------



## noco (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> In the last 10 years, what has killed more Australians?
> 
> Islamic Terrorism or Alcohol fuelled violence and drink driving?
> Considering muslims don't drink, maybe increasing the number of muslims in the population makes us safer.




Even one terror attack is one too many......86 Australians killed in Bali.....86 good living people who should still be alive and enjoying life today.

Increasing the number of Muslims, you must be joking.......Right wing organizations cannot have a meeting without  the demonstrations and disruption by Muslim groups.......Violence often eventuates and police and civilians get hurt and if they live in Victoria these hoods are protected by the that dumb a$$ Daniel Andrews......There was a recent case in Melbourne where this guy was attacked by  a group of Muslims.....Somebody rang the police 15 times and non turned up.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You must be able to see the difference, you are choosing to allow drinkers to have all their rights until they breach the law, where as you are happy to reduce the rights of the muslims before they have broken the law.




Actually the pub lockout laws have dramatically reduced the number of alcohol related  assaults in the area where they operate.

http://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Pages/bocsar_pages/Alcohol_Related_Violence.aspx

Is this a reduction of drinkers rights ?

2/3 of the public want the laws to stay.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/lockouts-...idents-want-laws-to-stay-20160220-gmz5ra.html


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> Even one terror attack is one too many......86 Australians killed in Bali.....86 good living people who should still be alive and enjoying life today.





Even one alcohol fuelled violent act or one drink driving incident leading to the death of an innocent is to many.

Alcohol is the 8th biggest killer of under 25's, over 5500 alcohol related deaths happen each year in Australia.

Trust me, our drinking culture is a bigger threat to your friends and family than Islam.

Allowing more Brits, Irish,Belgians and Germans into the country increases this drinking culture, they should be banned, innocents are dying.

See how silly that is? thats basically what you are saying about islam, except islam is a smaller threat.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Actually the pub lockout laws have dramatically reduced the number of alcohol related  assaults in the area where they operate.
> 
> Is this a reduction of drinkers rights ?
> 
> 2/3 of the public want the laws to stay.




Thats a direct action to a known problem, it's very different, if Islamic terror attacks were as common as alcohol violence, I might agree with more stricter rules, but they aren't.

Notice no one is calling for drinkers in general to be banned, If you are happy for a drinker to migrate here when you know there is a chance he could take someones life via drink driving or alcohol violence, but you don't want a muslim to come here because you are worried about terrorist attacks, thats an irrational fear.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Thats a direct action to a known problem, it's very different, if Islamic terror attacks were as common as alcohol violence, I might agree with more stricter rules, but they aren't.
> 
> Notice no one is calling for drinkers in general to be banned, If you are happy for a drinker to migrate here when you know there is a chance he could take someones life via drink driving or alcohol violence, but you don't want a muslim to come here because you are worried about terrorist attacks, thats an irrational fear.




6% of the Belgian population is Muslim, now they are a breeding ground for international terrorism.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...came-breeding-ground-international-terrorists

Don't let it happen here.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> 2996 Innocent people died in the world trade centre terrorist attack.
> 
> That same year in the USA, 2932 innocent people died due to drunk drivers.
> 
> People call to Ban Muslim immigrants, due to "terrorism risk", but I have never heard of anyone calling to ban Australian, British, Irish or German immigrants due to "Drinking culture" associated with those countries and the added risk of drinking related deaths they would bring with them.




Looking back on it, the thing about the response to that attack by Bush and co was just horrifying. It's not just the wars that it led to, but the domestic security ramp-up.

I was clued to the TV then and remember that it seem like the US didn't have any intelligence agencies or security checks at all. That anyone can just walk in and attack it. 

So what follow, beside the wars, was billions and trillions of dollars going towards security, surveillance like the country never had any before.

Maybe that's fair enough if it's for actual security, to actually protect and save lives right?

But then you see their responds to those First Responders to 9/11. How they got sick, got cancer and the politicians just cast them aside like they're pestering their important work. Asking volunteers to prove their cancer weren't pre-existing conditions; that they're not a terrorist. It's just shocking.

Then look at the city of Flint poisoned water crisis. Thousands of kids are lead poisoned; their healthy parents got sick... and what did the City do? They could spend some $50M to $200M to replace the rusted and fungal invested pipes.. .instead all they did was give each family a water filter, a carton of water a week, and only deduct what they estimate to be the amount of water drank from the water bill. 

Who does that? To their own people. 

Then there's a recent report of some 3000+ cities across the US with higher level of lead. So far haven't heard anything is being done about it.

It's hard to convince people their safety is the gov't number one priority when they see these kind of things happening to them. 

No wonder half the country don't vote.


----------



## noco (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Big difference.
> 
> By "taking licenses away from drink drivers and locking them up", you are targeting the people that are committing the crimes, I totally agree with that.
> 
> ...




And they would never swear allegiance to the Queen or country.

The majority of deaths relating to alcohol are self inflicted and if they drink and drive they are breaking the law and invariably get caught and pay the price.

But almost every day Muslims break the law with unlawful demonstrations and rioting and very little is done until it is too late....They get away with far too much in my opinion.

We accept them into our country, give them the world and they just simply abuse that privilage.

"tis a great way of saying thanks to us Aussies.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Read before that it's not just because he's a Christian.
> 
> Note how he's a Christian and a Governor? How did he get there if the Muslims-majority country's Muslims didn't also voted for him.
> 
> ...




So "bashing Islam" is an open door to losing office and being tossed in jail?

"Ahok" Basuki Tjahaja Purnama is still the leading contender for gubernatorial reelection, but that means zip if the religious nuts decide that the governor must  "submit to the will of Allah". This bloke faces an almost certain 5 year sentence, while his accusers go about blaspheming that Jesus was not the son of God.

His "bashing" was: saying his opponents had used a verse from the Quran to deceive voters and prevent him from winning another term during a meeting with residents in the city. Pretty harsh words for Muslims to handle?


----------



## noco (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> So "bashing Islam" is an open door to losing office and being tossed in jail?
> 
> "Ahok" Basuki Tjahaja Purnama is still the leading contender for gubernatorial reelection, but that means zip if the religious nuts decide that the governor must  "submit to the will of Allah". This bloke faces an almost certain 5 year sentence, while his accusers go about blaspheming that Jesus was not the son of God.
> 
> His "bashing" was: saying his opponents had used a verse from the Quran to deceive voters and prevent him from winning another term during a meeting with residents in the city. Pretty harsh words for Muslims to handle?




It is OK for Muslims to bash up innocent Aussies


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> So "bashing Islam" is an open door to losing office and being tossed in jail?
> 
> "Ahok" Basuki Tjahaja Purnama is still the leading contender for gubernatorial reelection, but that means zip if the religious nuts decide that the governor must  "submit to the will of Allah". This bloke faces an almost certain 5 year sentence, while his accusers go about blaspheming that Jesus was not the son of God.
> 
> His "bashing" was: saying his opponents had used a verse from the Quran to deceive voters and prevent him from winning another term during a meeting with residents in the city. Pretty harsh words for Muslims to handle?




I don't follow Indonesian politics McGee, just scan the headlines on that before.

Though it is interesting that he managed to get elected in the first place. How did that happen?

I'm not defending the guy or his critics but maybe it's possible that the opposition does know how to sow racial and religious hatred among the voters when there were none.


----------



## Ves (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> *The majority of deaths relating to alcohol are self inflicted *and if they drink and drive they are breaking the law and invariably get caught and pay the price.



Supporting link please.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I don't follow Indonesian politics McGee, just scan the headlines on that before.
> 
> Though it is interesting that he managed to get elected in the first place. How did that happen?
> 
> I'm not defending the guy or his critics but maybe it's possible that the opposition does know how to sow racial and religious hatred among the voters when there were none.




International politics in our region.

He was elected because enough people voted for him. However that doesn't stop a minority from using fear and superstition in exerting greater influence than the law allows. It's a core belief of Muslims that the sum of the people is never greater than the God they serve, so even one person with God on his side is far more righteous than the rest.


----------



## Wysiwyg (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Cana't really do that bro. That's like an Aussie politicians going into politics to share the wealth back to the poor and working class.



They already have. Dole, housing commission, child care benefit, paid parental leave, disability and support pension, pharmaceutical benefit scheme, health care rebate, rent assistance etc. the rest  ... https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/themes/families

A lucky country in many unseen ways and we don't need f/wits from overseas coming here telling us we are racist, inhumane, lacking compassion and never give someone a fair go. Some people get more than they ever contribute in return.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> International politics in our region.
> 
> He was elected because enough people voted for him. However that doesn't stop a minority from using fear and superstition in exerting greater influence than the law allows. It's a core belief of Muslims that the sum of the people is never greater than the God they serve, so even one person with God on his side is far more righteous than the rest.




I go by the US definition of "International" in its "International Community" - it's made up of only the US and the West 

I don't want to debate stuff I don't know about so can't really answer you. Just going by what you said and my reading of a couple of news blurb a while back - that despite his Christianity, the guy was voted in as Governor of the capital of a majority Muslim country. That kind of speak volumes doesn't it?

What follow after til now, I don't know. Maybe Pauline and Trump aren't the only politicians who know how to play the racist card.


----------



## Wysiwyg (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> It is OK for Muslims to bash up innocent Aussies



Sorry Noco but I do not think that is the best way. Inciting hatred is NOT the go. Brute force is NOT the answer.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> West
> 
> I don't want to debate stuff I don't know about so can't really answer you. Just going by what you said and my reading of a couple of news blurb a while back - that despite his Christianity, the guy was voted in as Governor of the capital of a majority Muslim country. That kind of speak volumes doesn't it?




and when the islamic courts lock him up and he is eventually murdered, will that speak volumes to you?

If nobody engages them his fate is sealed.


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> And they would never swear allegiance to the Queen or country.
> 
> .




I have served with Muslims, and so yes Muslims have and do swear allegiance to the queen. You do know that their are Muslims in both the Australian and British defence forces right?

Do you know more Muslims fought for the commonwealth in both WW1 and WW2 than Ausrtralians, I think you need to read up on some history.

When I said 2930 people died due to drink driving, that's just the innocent ones, not the drivers that were drunk.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I have served with Muslims, and so yes Muslims have and do swear allegiance to the queen. You do know that their are Muslims in both the Australian and British defence forces right?
> 
> Do you know more Muslims fought for the commonwealth in both WW1 and WW2 than Ausrtralians, I think you need to read up on some history.
> 
> When I said 2930 people died due to drink driving, that's just the innocent ones, not the drivers that were drunk.





That would be the British Empire and there would have been zip Muslims in the Australian Armed Forces, in either conflict for sure.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> They already have. Dole, housing commission, child care benefit, paid parental leave, disability and support pension, pharmaceutical benefit scheme, health care rebate, rent assistance etc. the rest  ... https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/themes/families
> 
> A lucky country in may unseen ways and we don't need f/wits from overseas coming here telling us we are racist, inhumane, lacking compassion and never give someone a fair go. Some people get more than they ever contribute in return.




Those "entitlements", as the Yank calls it, were not given by the political class. They were fought and won by the masses.

The times were different then. The two major wars and particularly aftermath of WW2 show the people what could happen when we label an entire race this and that nasty thing. The masses would not have any of that anymore.

That and there are alternatives to the "capitalist" system that exploit labour to enrich the upper crust. That the ruling class better smarten up, share some of the public wealth among the plebs, or look to Moscow, Europe, China - i.e. peasant leaders now live and work in them Royal Houses and Forbidden City.

So these benefits and social safety nets were won, not given.

Since then, Democracy and richer, healthier, more relaxed and educated plebs just prove too much to handle. What with stopping imperial wars, demanding higher wages, safe work practices... 

You as a Blue Blood master of man just can't have that. Not since the evil Soviet empire collapses and the boomer generation and their kids have long forgotten what made their country rich and liberal. They can only conclude that it is because they were great, destined and chosen by God. And so why are they struggling now? It's all those dam Muslims and welfare cheats. It's the illegals coming in to take jobs....

Just take a look at any Third World dictators and despots. They tend to rule over "their" kind of people right? Same religion/culture/colour... why are they such greedy azzholes building castles, fly around in private jets while their people starve and beg in the streets?

Those ruling, political elite are just nasty while ours kisses babies, shake hand with the plebs, take a few pics and so are cool? That they really do love us all just that we'd have to let them beat up a bunch of lazy widows and orphans, Muslims and things?

----

No known f'wits will be permitted into Australia. Just watch Border Patrol... they won't even be permitted to holiday here if we suspect anything. 

So refugees and migrants who escape war and famine, who trek thousands of miles on foot and somehow survived and are granted residency in a country like Australia. Man, that's like God literally open the sky to give them a thumbs up. 

With all the vetting and given their situation, it's very rare for them to become ungrateful f'wits complaining about anything. 

I bet you they wouldn't even believe you if you tell them that there's such a thing as welfare payment here. 

Anyway, repeating myself here... but this is how people are divided to be conquered. 

All the nasty stuff are never done to hurt "you", they're always done to protect you against "the other".


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

If anyone just watched QANDA you would have seen a classic example of a Muslim throwing a hissy fit. 

She has been lauded as something special by the ABC because she is a woman, a muslim and actually achieved stuff that white, atheist, male engineers do enmasse. It's really quite insulting in my view that women especially, are paraded like monkeys who can count to ten when they should be treated just like any other peer in the group.

Anyway this one reckons that Muslim women have more freedom than westerners and are not servile to their husbands .... boy o' boy is that girl in for a shock when she grows up and finds herself trapped in the sticky.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> That would be the British Empire and there would have been zip Muslims in the Australian Armed Forces, in either conflict for sure.




There weren't Indians, and what became Pakistan, serving in His and Her Majesty's wars?


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> If anyone just watched QANDA you would have seen a classic example of a Muslim throwing a hissy fit.
> 
> She has been lauded as something special by the ABC because she is a woman, a muslim and actually achieved stuff that white, atheist, male engineers do enmasse. It's really quite insulting in my view that women especially, are paraded like monkeys who can count to ten when they should be treated just like any other peer in the group.
> 
> Anyway this one reckons that Muslim women have more freedom than westerners and are not servile to their husbands .... boy o' boy is that girl in for a shock when she grows up and finds herself trapped in the sticky.




And you know that how?


----------



## Value Collector (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> That would be the British Empire and there would have been zip Muslims in the Australian Armed Forces, in either conflict for sure.



The claim was that Muslims wouldn't swear allegiance to the queen, I am saying that right now there is Muslims in the defence force who have, and in the big conflicts of the past thousands of them have sworn allegiance to the queen and fought on our side.

How do you know that no Muslims fought in the Aussie army? Are you just guessing?

In fact if it wasn't for the Muslims fighting the Japanese in Burma, we probably wouldn't have been able to stop them on the Kokoda track.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> If anyone just watched QANDA you would have seen a classic example of a Muslim throwing a hissy fit.
> 
> She has been lauded as something special by the ABC because she is a woman, a muslim and actually achieved stuff that white, atheist, male engineers do enmasse. It's really quite insulting in my view that women especially, are paraded like monkeys who can count to ten when they should be treated just like any other peer in the group.
> 
> Anyway this one reckons that Muslim women have more freedom than westerners and are not servile to their husbands .... boy o' boy is that girl in for a shock when she grows up and finds herself trapped in the sticky.




It would be interesting to know what percentage of Muslim born women actually married Christians, atheists, Jews or agnostics and effectively left the "flock" without being threatened or harassed by their relatives.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> There weren't Indians, and what became Pakistan, serving in His and Her Majesty's wars?




Not in the Australian Army. I'm sure the Indian Army had a fair draft of Muslims, mixed in with the Hindus and Sikhs, the numbers are probably inflated year on year as Islam seeks to legitimise it nationalism.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Not in the Australian Army. I'm sure the Indian Army had a fair draft of Muslims, mixed in with the Hindus and Sikhs, the numbers are probably inflated year on year as Islam seeks to legitimise it nationalism.




Yes, I misread your sleight of hand there 

Why would any Muslim want to talk about its nationalism? Not in the current climate.

You can be a third generation, Aussie born and bred, but if you're brown and look like you're praying to Allah... man.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It would be interesting to know what percentage of Muslim born women actually married Christians, atheists, Jews or agnostics and effectively left the "flock" without being threatened or harassed by their relatives.




There's something awry with the brain, when it lets fantasy rule common sense and personal freedom. There has to be merit in the idea that generational indoctrination becomes nature, how else can vulnerability to institutional cooption be explained. 

Thankfully Australia still has a fair share of secularists like me.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It would be interesting to know what percentage of Muslim born women actually married Christians, atheists, Jews or agnostics and effectively left the "flock" without being threatened or harassed by their relatives.




You mean Arab women right?

'cause religious people tend to marry those from the same religion as theirs. If the other is agnostic or from any other religion, it's the job of a good X religion to convert.

As to Arab women/men marrying the infidels without conversion... I guess the fact that they managed to no longer be Muslim and survive tells us that they can if they wanted to, now that they're no longer a Muslim.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yes, I misread your sleight of hand there
> 
> Why would any Muslim want to talk about its nationalism? Not in the current climate.
> 
> You can be a third generation, Aussie born and bred, but if you're brown and look like you're praying to Allah... man.





Third gens usually lose the superstitions of their grandparents that drove them to leave and make a new life in a safe haven like Australia. Colour is not an issue until it becomes the badge of the person wearing it, to promote anti social behaviours.

If you are Aussie born and bred you invariably question the validity of the yarns spiritual leaders would have you believe so they can control your behaviours...you would question because you can in Australia, possibly one of a very few countries, even though the Labor party would legislate that right away to stop hurts feelings.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> You mean Arab women right?
> 
> 'cause religious people tend to marry those from the same religion as theirs. If the other is agnostic or from any other religion, it's the job of a good X religion to convert.
> 
> As to Arab women/men marrying the infidels without conversion... I guess the fact that they managed to no longer be Muslim and survive tells us that they can if they wanted to, now that they're no longer a Muslim.





Who says someone has to convert? There are far more irreligious people in Australia than those that profess an offshelf God brand.

It will be the Muslim families and friends who desert a woman hooking up with a non Muslim.  Agnostics and atheists don't ostracise other non denominationals for hooking up with non Muslims do they?


----------



## noco (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Not in the Australian Army. I'm sure the Indian Army had a fair draft of Muslims, mixed in with the Hindus and Sikhs, the numbers are probably inflated year on year as Islam seeks to legitimise it nationalism.




There are actually 98 Muslims in the ADF.......It might sound OK for now but what sort of sabotage acts could they perform  to a ship or an air craft...My suspicious is mind is working overtime again.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/08/18/meet-young-muslims-getting-ready-fight-australia


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Third gens usually lose the superstitions of their grandparents that drove them to leave and make a new life in a safe haven like Australia. Colour is not an issue until it becomes the badge of the person wearing it, to promote anti social behaviours.
> 
> If you are Aussie born and bred you invariably question the validity of the yarns spiritual leaders would have you believe so they can control your behaviours...you would question because you can in Australia, possibly one of a very few countries, even though the Labor party would legislate that right away to stop hurts feelings.




Chances are it starts with the generation that first decided they'd have enough of those bs and so move to be with the infidels.

I mean, that's why my parents decided to risk it all - they saw the corruptions, the racism [yea, apparently the North don't much like the South and the South don't much like the commies either] and thought they'd rather risk their kids drown then raise them up among these a-holes.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

noco said:


> There are actually 98 Muslims in the ADF.......It might sound OK for now but what sort of sabotage acts could they perform  to a ship or an air craft...My suspicious is mind is working overtime again.
> 
> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/08/18/meet-young-muslims-getting-ready-fight-australia




Good thing you do recognise your fault sometime noco.


----------



## luutzu (13 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Who says someone has to convert? There are far more irreligious people in Australia than those that profess an offshelf God brand.
> 
> It will be the Muslim families and friends who desert a woman hooking up with a non Muslim.  Agnostics and atheists don't ostracise other non denominationals for hooking up with non Muslims do they?




They don't?

Have you seen "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner"? Or watch Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story; or remember the good old days when you were young in Australia? Or have talk to them friends in the South over TrumpLand?


----------



## noco (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Good thing you do recognise your fault sometime noco.




What fault may that be?......I was drawing to attention the fact that we have Muslims in the ADF and the repercussions that it could have on our equipment....Who can tell if they are not just a plant and why has the Mufties , the higher order of Islam, allowed the recruitment of Muslims into the ADF.?...I thought tar would be against their ideology.


----------



## Tisme (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> They don't?
> 
> Have you seen "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner"? Or watch Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story; or remember the good old days when you were young in Australia? Or have talk to them friends in the South over TrumpLand?




Are you mixing metaphors deliberately?  We are talking about religions and you are talking bone structure and skin colour presumably? I never chose my friends on appearance from as early as I can remember and I don't think I heard any racism among my cohorts in my primary school years and rarely in high school....apart from the POMS, but only because they spoke funny and acted superior.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

noco said:


> What fault may that be?......I was drawing to attention the fact that we have Muslims in the ADF and the repercussions that it could have on our equipment....Who can tell if they are not just a plant and why has the Mufties , the higher order of Islam, allowed the recruitment of Muslims into the ADF.?...I thought tar would be against their ideology.




Your fault was that you are showing your irrational fear again, and talking as if Muslims are one big group out to get us.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Your fault was that you are showing your irrational fear again, and talking as if Muslims are one big group out to get us.




Well, you have been in the ADF so I'm not going to say you are wrong, but doesn't this sort of thing disturb you ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-24/inquest-into-the-deaths-of-three-australian-soldiers/6569438


----------



## noco (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Your fault was that you are showing your irrational fear again, and talking as if Muslims are one big group out to get us.




You have got that right......The Muslims want to take over the Western world and they will do anything to gain their goal by intimidation and fear...The Muslims may not have killed many in Australia as yet but the constant bashing have left many maimed with scars indelible in their minds for the rest of their lives. ...A vehicle loaded with one  tonne of explosives  will eventually slip through the police radar..

You see, I might have OCD but I am very physic, I have a suspicious mind and often gaze into my crystal ball.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, you have been in the ADF so I'm not going to say you are wrong, but doesn't this sort of thing disturb you ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-24/inquest-into-the-deaths-of-three-australian-soldiers/6569438



Of course it does, but firstly the attacker in this situation was not a member of the adf, and if you think all Muslims support the taliban, you are wrong.

I can't see what this situation has to do with letting Australian citizens who are Muslim into the adf.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

noco said:


> You have got that right......The Muslims want to take over the Western world and they will do anything to gain their goal by intimidation and fear...
> 
> .




That should actually read "Some Muslim groups want to take over the world, including the muslim world"

Remember more muslims are dying than any other group, so to paint them as some united group is silly.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I can't see what this situation has to do with letting Australian citizens who are Muslim into the adf.





How are you going to tell what matters most to them, loyalty to the Koran (kill infidels etc) or loyalty to the Queen and country.

Someday there could be a conflict and you wouldn't want to turn your back on them.


----------



## Tisme (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> That should actually read "Some Muslim groups want to take over the world, including the muslim world"
> 
> Remember more muslims are dying than any other group, so to paint them as some united group is silly.





It it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck and ducks **** over anything and everything, which is why we need more chooks (sound like a Team America script )


----------



## Tisme (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I can't see what this situation has to do with letting Australian citizens who are Muslim into the adf.




"Beware Greeks bearing gifts" ring any bells?


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> 6% of the Belgian population is Muslim, now they are a breeding ground for international terrorism.
> 
> .





They are also a breeding ground for alcohol related deaths, Alcohol related deaths in Belgium are more than double that of Australia (which is already high).

Perhaps if we are judging a migrant family from Belgium, we should be more worried about the white drinkers.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> They are also a breeding ground for alcohol related deaths, Alcohol related deaths in Belgium are more than double that of Australia (which is already high).




Please, not the old straw man argument trick.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Please, not the old straw man argument trick.




How is it a straw man, People are saying having muslims in the country increases risk to the rest of the population.

I am pointing out drink driving and alcohol violence is a far bigger killer, given that muslims don't drink, we would actually be reducing the risk to the rest of the population by avoiding people from drinking cultures.

Can you explain the flaw in my logic?


----------



## Tisme (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Please, not the old straw man argument trick.



I dunno, drunks deserve to be controlled by enclaved sharia law


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> How is it a straw man, People are saying having muslims in the country increases risk to the rest of the population.
> 
> I am pointing out drink driving and alcohol violence is a far bigger killer, given that muslims don't drink, we would actually be reducing the risk to the rest of the population by avoiding people from drinking cultures.
> 
> Can you explain the flaw in my logic?




Drinkers don't necessarily pledge allegiance to a violent religion.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Drinkers don't necessarily pledge allegiance to a violent religion.




Name one religion that has never been use to wage war. 

Or name one race, or group of people, who has never ever fought a war.

If we use the same set of criteria to ban Muslims from Australia - violent religion, oppressive cultural practices, have a bunch of nutjobs, have a history of empire building...  Use those same criteria to then ban or expel all who came from that group, no one would be left in Australia except for the Aborigines. And that's only because going back to where they came from means going here.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Drinkers don't necessarily pledge allegiance to a violent religion.




Neither do all muslims, Most versions of islam are non violent.



But So what, drinkers indulge in risky behaviour that is known to kill thousands of Australians, or is it just the deaths caused by muslims that both you? e.g., innocents dying at the hand of a drunk are not as worrying to you.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

noco said:


> What fault may that be?......I was drawing to attention the fact that we have Muslims in the ADF and the repercussions that it could have on our equipment....Who can tell if they are not just a plant and why has the Mufties , the higher order of Islam, allowed the recruitment of Muslims into the ADF.?...I thought tar would be against their ideology.





Serious? 

All Catholics listen and follow what the Pope says?

All Christians act and think alike? In one unified, harmonious group that has never ever fought each other?

When you speak, does all your kids follow? 

People are individuals. Even if they all look the same.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Neither do all muslims, Most versions of islam are non violent.
> 
> 
> 
> But So what, drinkers indulge in risky behaviour that is known to kill thousands of Australians, or is it just the deaths caused by muslims that both you? e.g., innocents dying at the hand of a drunk are not as worrying to you.




There is a difference between deliberately causing death or injury and irresponsibly causing death or injury.

Drunks don't have Imams telling them to go out and kill infidels or training courses telling them how to do it.


----------



## Tisme (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Serious?
> 
> All Catholics listen and follow what the Pope says?
> 
> ...





You just answered your quandary about why we don't like the hassle of controlling religious cults taking over our 200 years of trying to leave that nonsense behind in the old world countries of dragons, unicorns, fairies, etc and "nefarious invisible gods" who gave up and left around the 7th century when the last fella spoken too decided to set up his own empire for world domination on the back of it.


----------



## noco (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Serious?
> 
> All Catholics listen and follow what the Pope says?
> 
> ...




I suggest you leave my family out of this discussion.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a difference between deliberately causing death or injury and irresponsibly causing death or injury.
> 
> Drunks don't have Imams telling them to go out and kill infidels or training courses telling them how to do it.




No difference to the victims.

Serious man, where do you get these ideas that Islam preaches hate and violence and terrorism. 

Maybe Muslims goes to Mosques and pray for the same reasons followers of other religion does it for.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

noco said:


> I suggest you leave my family out of this discussion.




I wasn't pointing to your family in that sense noco.

Was saying that even in our own family, each one of us, it is hard for one family to even be all united and follow the same thing.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> You just answered your quandary about why we don't like the hassle of controlling religious cults taking over our 200 years of trying to leave that nonsense behind in the old world countries of dragons, unicorns, fairies, etc and "nefarious invisible gods" who gave up and left around the 7th century when the last fella spoken too decided to set up his own empire for world domination on the back of it.




You're mixing the convicts and First Fleeters with the Yank's Pilgrims aren't you?

Australia can't make the same claim of escaping religious persecution or freedom from it. We colony of Britain got here to bring them good English value to the Natives because the American Colonies rebelled and kicked us out.


----------



## noco (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> No difference to the victims.
> 
> Serious man, where do you get these ideas that Islam preaches hate and violence and terrorism.
> 
> Maybe Muslims goes to Mosques and pray for the same reasons followers of other religion does it for.




Luu, are you so blind that others cannot see....Have you observed a dozen or more passages in the Koran where it clearly states, "I you are an infidel or a Christian you must be eliminated by cutting off their heads of  other methods".
Muslims brainwash the children in Islamic schools 5 times a day...What sort of kids will they be when they become teens.
Does praying actually help?......It does nothing no matter what religion you may follow.


----------



## noco (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I wasn't pointing to your family in that sense noco.
> 
> Was saying that even in our own family, each one of us, it is hard for one family to even be all united and follow the same thing.




 For your information, I have a very close knit family 3 kids.....5 grand kids and 5 great grand kids...None of us are religious but we all live a very happy life and abide by the laws of the country....The parents up bringing of their children has every thing to do with their outcome in life...We don't need religion....We don't need to get down on our knees and pray 5 times a day or go to church every Sunday to make us look good...Religion is a racket and used to get people too part with their money.....Many people use religion as a shadow to cover their sins......He or she goes to church so they must be good people....What are they praying for?......Praying for something that is not going to happen.
Well, I have got news for you Luu, I gave up religion when I was some 18 years old because I found I found myself mixing with so many hypocrites.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

noco said:


> Luu, are you so blind that others cannot see....Have you observed a dozen or more passages in the Koran where it clearly states, "I you are an infidel or a Christian you must be eliminated by cutting off their heads of  other methods".
> Muslims brainwash the children in Islamic schools 5 times a day...What sort of kids will they be when they become teens.
> Does praying actually help?......It does nothing no matter what religion you may follow.




Jesus Christ is considered a Prophet in Islam noco. Muhammad is also a Prophet, the last one God/Allah will send down to give his Creation another chance before He calls it quit.

Of course praying doesn't bring results in them being answered. But to religious people, to those who have faith, praying might help in relieving them of their worries.. .it's like talking to a psychologist or psychiatrist, but for free.

I don't know man, people can do whatever they want as long as it does not harm others and the community. That's the kind of value and freedom we're all trying to protect right?

No people can be free when their country or their people deliberately discriminate against another group of people or their cultural/religious beliefs. You cannot run an empire that way. Even the Mongols knew that.


----------



## PZ99 (14 February 2017)

noco said:


> For your information, I have a very close knit family 3 kids.....5 grand kids and 5 great grand kids...None of us are religious but we all live a very happy life and abide by the laws of the country....The parents up bringing of their children has every thing to do with their outcome in life...We don't need religion....We don't need to get down on our knees and pray 5 times a day or go to church every Sunday to make us look good...Religion is a racket and used to get people too part with their money.....Many people use religion as a shadow to cover their sins......He or she goes to church so they must be good people....What are they praying for?......Praying for something that is not going to happen.
> Well, I have got news for you Luu, I gave up religion when I was some 18 years old because I found I found myself mixing with so many hypocrites.



noco, I'm with you on that. Religion was forcibly shoved down our throats at school but for any independent free thinker like yourself or myself it didn't take long for the rank hypocrisy to surface. While I respect people who might find some comfort in religion it means nothing to me. I will die, disappear and that's the end of it. I don't believe in afterlife recyclers.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

noco said:


> For your information, I have a very close knit family 3 kids.....5 grand kids and 5 great grand kids...None of us are religious but we all live a very happy life and abide by the laws of the country....The parents up bringing of their children has every thing to do with their outcome in life...We don't need religion....We don't need to get down on our knees and pray 5 times a day or go to church every Sunday to make us look good...Religion is a racket and used to get people too part with their money.....Many people use religion as a shadow to cover their sins......He or she goes to church so they must be good people....What are they praying for?......Praying for something that is not going to happen.
> Well, I have got news for you Luu, I gave up religion when I was some 18 years old because I found I found myself mixing with so many hypocrites.




Great to hear that noco.

I've personally known a few "religious" people who are just the worst kind of human being I've ever known. So yes, people can use it as a fascade to show their purity and whatever.

I'm not a religious person either. But the world can't be run the way we like it. There are laws and rights and stuff. So as long as they don't bother me and you, don't infringe on our rights, kneel to whoever makes them happy I'd say.

Man I hope I could manage to stay long enough to see great grandkids and still carry on a conversation at your age noco.


----------



## noco (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Jesus Christ is considered a Prophet in Islam noco. Muhammad is also a Prophet, the last one God/Allah will send down to give his Creation another chance before He calls it quit.
> 
> Of course praying doesn't bring results in them being answered. But to religious people, to those who have faith, praying might help in relieving them of their worries.. .it's like talking to a psychologist or psychiatrist, but for free.
> 
> ...




Where did you derive *"Jesus Christ is considered a Prophet in Islam noco. Muhammad is also a Prophet, the last one God/Allah will send down to give his Creation another chance before He calls it quit".*

Religion has caused more problems around the world than anything else.
Thank "God"(pun accepted)  I am agnostic because I am yet to be convinced their is a God....Millions of people only believe in God because they have been told by some religious crank that there is a God....Where does he hang out.....Has any one proved as yet that God exists....The answer is NO.....Please don't come back to me and say look around you ...the trees the air we breath and how did human being come to be on this planet...I have heard it all before......Nobody knows and I doubt if they will ever find out......So it is what some one said 2000 years ago and people still believe it.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Serious man, where do you get these ideas that Islam preaches hate and violence and terrorism.




From the Islamic terror attacks around the world.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> From the Islamic terror attacks around the world.




A bit selective there isn't it?

Don't get me wrong, terrorism is horrific and cannot be justified. 

But when we want to be objective and neutral... aren't drone attacks and invasions also terrifying? I know I'd be terrified if I were to live in the ME and not know whether the street I'm walking down have some terrorist someone somewhere decided to take out.

Saw a clip of Bill Maher, the so-called "progressive" TV talking head/comedian. The dude criticises Trump for saying that the US aren't so innocent. How dare the president of the US says that what we do is anything but good and noble!

Should we, or anyone in the world, take the actions of "our" warmongers and other psychopaths does and paint us all as the one and the same?

Good for the goose, not good for the gander?

We, the plebs, are generally normal, easy-going people who just want a decent job, roof over our head, able to put food on the table, grow old and die peacefully. That and be left alone. 

This is true throughout the ages, across all cultures and empires. 

But others of greater ambition and so-call destiny, and psychotic leaning... they can't have that. They get bored living in luxuries and castles, read too much grand histories of Alexander, Caesar and Napoleon... and so itches for war of conquest. Why not, other people's kids will pay the price while they themselves get the glory and booties.

And you cannot mobilise the people for war if they do not hate or feel threaten. 

It's pretty simple.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> A bit selective there isn't it?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, terrorism is horrific and cannot be justified.
> 
> But when we want to be objective and neutral... aren't drone attacks and invasions also terrifying? I know I'd be terrified if I were to live in the ME and not know whether the street I'm walking down have some terrorist someone somewhere decided to take out.





I think we have been through this before. The West is not taking on Islam in the ME, we are helping Muslim countries fight a threat to law and order in that area.

You may say we should just pull out and leave them to it. Maybe sell them arms like we did to Saddam. That's pretty risky if ISIL wins and has control over all those arms.

In the end we need a ME that we can deal with in a quasi civilised manner, not a bunch of psychos.


----------



## dutchie (14 February 2017)

Islam is indeed evil......

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s/news-story/cabfb99aebe52ebcac836ad4d1fd51f0

Islamic State calls for murder of Australian Islamic clerics

Islamic State has called for the deaths of three prominent Australian Islamic scholars in a new propaganda video.

Youth leader Sheikh Shady Alsuleiman, NSW Police Force chaplain Sheikh Ahmed Abdo and the Grand Mufti of Australia, Ibrahim Abu Mohamed are slammed as “apostates” in the video — a crime punishable by death according to radical Islam.

The video calls on followers to kill the three men, and mentions other leaders from across the Islamic world, saying they’re “collaborators, informers and apostates” for discouraging violence.


That's why Islam will always be violent. The moderates will be scared to say anything. Just like the German populace in WW2.
Why bring any more problems to Australia? It's a no brainer.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a difference between deliberately causing death or injury and irresponsibly causing death or injury.




this is a discussion of risk, you are saying allowing muslims in increases the risk of innocent people being killed, I am saying it doesn't, because the risk of a muslim murdering is so low, and the risk of a drinker killing some one is so much higher, but muslims don't drink.

So the tiny risk of a muslim killing someone because of their religion, is totally offset by the reduced chance of muslims killing due to drink driving.

Ask your self, if you could wave a magic wand, and either take away all future terrorist attacks on our shores, or take away all alcohol violence and drink driving deaths, which would you do?

If you say the terrorist attacks you are either completely irrational, or simply don't understand the consistent figure of alcohol related innocent deaths.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> From the Islamic terror attacks around the world.




So why don't you believe Christian preach violence? because there are plenty of christian terror attacks also.

What you are doing is separating the extreme christians from the majority who are peaceful, but you refuse to give muslims the same respect.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So the tiny risk of a muslim killing someone because of their religion, is totally offset by the reduced chance of muslims killing due to drink driving.




As  pointed out for Belgium, the higher the proportion of Muslims the more danger they pose because of their ideology that motivates some of them to violence. The moderates are too afraid to speak up in case they are singled out for revenge.

Your comparison with drink driving is irrational. Measures like early closing more RBT patrols can reduce the incidence.

In any case as I have said before we don't need more people from anywhere in this country at the moment. Resources are stretched enough already. Too much crime including from Muslim-North African gangs which is becoming a real problem that no one wants to see made worse.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> .
> 
> 
> . Just like the German populace in WW2.
> Why bring any more problems to Australia? It's a no brainer.




We accepted a lot of German refugees and displaced people.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> the higher the proportion of Muslims the more danger they pose because of their ideology that motivates some of them to violence.





the higher the proportion of those from drinking cultures the more danger they pose because of their drug use that motivates some of them to violence and irresponsible behaviour.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> the higher the proportion of those from drinking cultures the more danger they pose because of their drug use that motivates some of them to violence and irresponsible behaviour.




Nonsense. Everyone who calls themselves Muslim has had exposure to that ideology which can turn into extremism so there is a defined risk, whereas non Muslims may not even drink, so their risk is undefined.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> Islam is indeed evil......
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s/news-story/cabfb99aebe52ebcac836ad4d1fd51f0
> 
> ...




Wait... ISIS calls for the death of Muslim leaders in Australia because they're "apostates"... yet Muslims are all evil like ISIS and those in Australia are evil?

See how that kind of contradict itself that every Muslim love ISIS or are terrorist?


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Nonsense. Everyone who calls themselves Muslim has had exposure to that ideology which can turn into extremism so there is a defined risk, whereas non Muslims may not even drink, so their risk is undefined.




But non-Muslims who don't drink, but came from culture that drinks are also exposed to the habit and so could one day get drunk. No?

Speaking of which... was at a wedding in the UK and man the English can drink. They were all surprised (and envious) that in Australia the bar is open at weddings. If there's ever a wedding I have to pay for and the Irish or English are invited, there's never going to be an open bar, ever.


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I think we have been through this before. The West is not taking on Islam in the ME, we are helping Muslim countries fight a threat to law and order in that area.
> 
> You may say we should just pull out and leave them to it. Maybe sell them arms like we did to Saddam. That's pretty risky if ISIL wins and has control over all those arms.
> 
> In the end we need a ME that we can deal with in a quasi civilised manner, not a bunch of psychos.




Heard that most of the arms ISIS have they took from the Iraqi Army. So we're a bit late on preventing that one.

Then there's Gadaffi's armouries stashed all over Libya. When "we" took him out and turn the place upside down, guess what the people in charge of those stashes do with them? They sold them to whoever... and those whoever are militias and terrorists all over North Africa and some of them got to ISIS too.

Trust me, no army in the world has ever come into any country to seriously help the country. It's a bit incredible that anyone could believe that. 

The Americans wouldn't even spend a couple hundred millions to provide their own people with clean drinking water, so the idea that their politicians would go all out to help Arabs and Muslims...

Fun fact: New York City spent more to provide security for Trump's wife and his youngest son [Barron? who the heck name their kid Barron?]... they spent more to provide security to the two of them per month than they do providing food and shelter to the homeless.

The homeless have no choice and need handouts; young Barron and mommy could just move to Washington DC and finish his "schooling" there to save taxpayers freaking $365M a year! That's over $1Billion over the next four years just to provide security because they thought it's a bit inconvenient for little Trump to change school.

But yea, Muslims and refugees and homeless welfare people are what's making the country poor.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> 1.Nonsense. Everyone who calls themselves Muslim has had exposure to that ideology which can turn into extremism so there is a defined risk,
> 
> 2. whereas non Muslims may not even drink, so their risk is undefined.




1. No they haven't

2. I am only talking about drinkers.


----------



## dutchie (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> We accepted a lot of German refugees and displaced people.



Nothing to do with that.

I was referring to the fact that the German populace could not complain about the Nazi's when they got into power for fear that they may be jailed or killed.


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> I was referring to the fact that the German populace could not complain about the Nazi's when they got into power for fear that they may be jailed or killed.




Yes, and a lot of them fled as "refugees" and we accepted them, just as many muslims are now fleeing the hardliners.

Did you know that WW2 was ended by refugee's, if trump was in power during WW2, and he banned refugees from nazi countries, the manhattan project wouldn't have existed and perhaps hitler would have got the Atom bomb, and the war would have dragged out killing a lot more US soldiers.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Did you know that WW2 was ended by refugee's,




They weren't Muslims though were they ?


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> They weren't Muslims though were they ?




I am not sure of the religion of all the people who worked on the project.
However as already stated about 1,000,000 muslim soldiers served on our side during WW2,


----------



## noco (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> We accepted a lot of German refugees and displaced people.



Yes, and they assimilated into our community....They never gave us any problems like we are currently experiencing with Muslims...They were carefully selected with  a trade having worked with so many in the plumbing trade...They quickly learned to speak English...I can also speak for the Italians.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure of the religion of all the people who worked on the project.
> However as already stated about 1,000,000 muslim soldiers served on our side during WW2,




So what do you think of Sharia Law VC ? Should we allow it in this country ?


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> They weren't Muslims though were they ?




They were the Muslims of the day though. 

Most got turned back from Western countries. Ends up in ghettos then the concentration camps. 

But the Jews are different though. They're not at all vile and backwards, they don't have a weird religion and never assimilate... the Nazi says that of the Jews, but we all know the Nazi lies and use propaganda whereas we enlightened Democracies. 

Seriously, what Australia managed to established as a nation is nothing short of a miracle. We're going to let our trusty politicians throw all of it away if we aren't careful; if we believe in some sort of manifest destiny of our (White and Christian) greatness and invincibility no matter how racist and harmful many of our policies are steering us towards.

You don't fly half way around the world, literally take over its gov't in two to three weeks... then say that that country poses some sort of existential threat to your way of life.

You don't command their land, seas and skies... strike whoever, whenever you like... flatten buildings, schools, factories, towns, cities... you can't do that kind of destabilisation, fracturing the country, leading to the rise of warlords and terrorist groups... can't do that then show videos of their crazies committing murder to justify your noble intent against their barbarity. 

And you definitely do not kick and bash the few fortunate refugees who managed to escape all that hell, receive the generosity of a people to start anew.

If you find yourself doing all that, you're either being lied to or just seriously misinformed and prejudiced.


----------



## noco (14 February 2017)

Here is video instructing Muslim men how to beat their wives and not only in Saudi Arabia but world wide.....If our men do the same thing here it is called domestic violence.

http://elicit.wixsite.com/the-watch...-TV-teaching-husbands-how-to-beat-their-wives


----------



## luutzu (14 February 2017)

noco said:


> Here is video instructing Muslim men how to beat their wives and not only in Saudi Arabia but world wide.....If our men do the same thing here it is called domestic violence.
> 
> http://elicit.wixsite.com/the-watch...-TV-teaching-husbands-how-to-beat-their-wives




Women in Western societies are all equal to their male counterpart?

80% of the pay for the same work.

Being sexualised like objects; are somehow told that if they're as skinny as a board with no boobs, that's sexy. Are now told that if they're housewives, you know, spending time at home to raise the kids, that that's somehow not as "worthy" as getting a job in the workforce and offload the kids to grandma or some centres... and there are no domestic abuses and violence? All us men treat our women good and proper?

Dam, in the freest and bestest country in the world, women aren't permitted to decide their own pregnancies in most states. And if Trump have his way, it'll be out the door because life matters as long as it's in the womb; and if the woman died from lack of healthcare, that's what will make them stronger or something.

Anyway, this is getting too much.


----------



## noco (14 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Women in Western societies are all equal to their male counterpart?
> 
> 80% of the pay for the same work.
> 
> ...




Why do Muslim women put up with barbaric behavior?

My bet is that goes on here in Australia but we never hear about it....So if there were Muslims women being beaten in Australia wouldn't they have a better chance of escaping to a women's shelter?


----------



## noco (15 February 2017)

This why the government should close all Muslim schools.
Muslim kids are being brain washed with this crap 5 times a day at Muslims schools. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206312655575811&set=p.10206312655575811&type=3&theater


----------



## Tisme (15 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Wait... ISIS calls for the death of Muslim leaders in Australia because they're "apostates"... yet Muslims are all evil like ISIS and those in Australia are evil?
> 
> See how that kind of contradict itself that every Muslim love ISIS or are terrorist?




Perhaps just a ruse to make them look like clean skins?


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So what do you think of Sharia Law VC ? Should we allow it in this country ?




No, we are a secular country, no religious laws should form part of our legal system, whether they be Jewish, Christian or islamic.


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

noco said:


> Here is video instructing Muslim men how to beat their wives and not only in Saudi Arabia but world wide




Here Is a video of some christians burning an old lady alive because she is a "witch".


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

noco said:


> They quickly learned to speak English...I can also speak for the Italians.




In 30 years we will be saying the same thing about muslims, while we hate on the next wave of entrants.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> In 30 years we will be saying the same thing about muslims, while we hate on the next wave of entrants.




Not while they still maintain their archaic and faulty ideology.


----------



## Tink (15 February 2017)

Well we can't be secular if we still say the Lord's Prayer in Parliament.


----------



## noco (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Here Is a video of some christians burning an old lady alive because she is a "witch".





Your video does not indicate which country this applies to or how long ago the incident took place...Are able to elaborate with some more information?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Here Is a video of some christians burning an old lady alive because she is a "witch".





They don't appear to be in a Western secular democracy.


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Not while they still maintain their archaic and faulty ideology.




We accept the Italians and most of them are still catholic.



Tink said:


> Well we can't be secular if we still say the Lord's Prayer in Parliament.




Again, find the word bible, christian or Jesus in our constitution, and I will stop calling us secular.



noco said:


> Your video does not indicate which country this applies to or how long ago the incident took place...Are able to elaborate with some more information?




Horrible things are happening all over Africa in the name of christianity, do some research and you will see its not limited to this incident.



SirRumpole said:


> They don't appear to be in a Western secular democracy.




So what?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So what?




Primitive people have more reliance on superstition and religion because they are less educated and less critical thinkers, so barbaric acts are more likely to happen in places like that.


----------



## noco (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> We accept the Italians and most of them are still catholic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She is a witch if she flies her broom stick more than 150 meters above the ground...


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Primitive people have more reliance on superstition and religion because they are less educated and less critical thinkers, so barbaric acts are more likely to happen in places like that.




Yes I agree, religion can have bad outcomes, but whats your point?



noco said:


> She is a witch if she flies her broom stick more than 150 meters above the ground...



Or they can just be some one practicing local witch doctor rituals who have their town turn against them once the catholics come to town.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes I agree, religion can have bad outcomes, but whats your point?




I should have thought it was obvious. Primitive countries are more likely to have religious inspired violence because their inhabitants are less educated. So the point is that it's invalid to show videos of religious violence in primitive countries and say that is comparable to what happens in advanced societies.

So where are your examples of Christian violence in Australia ? We can show examples of Islamic violence in Australia, so that is the basis of comparison; ie Islamic vs Christian violence in the same environment.


----------



## Ves (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So what do you think of Sharia Law VC ? Should we allow it in this country ?



Can you explain what you think "Sharia Law" is? Without understanding what you think it is,  it's fairly hard to answer this question.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I don't know man, people can do whatever they want as long as it does not harm others and the community. That's the kind of value and freedom we're all trying to protect right?



*Beautiful!
*
What people are saying is the people who live in or come to this country with plans of terrorist attack in the name of a certain religion, as we have already seen here and overseas, will not be accepted. *The good members of that religion can be fighting against the terrorists/would be terrorist/terror preachers within their religion*. I seriously want that to be happening otherwise the good ones may not be good at all. That is the question, what is the ultimate goal of that religion? Is it a religion of peace?


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> *The good members of that religion can be fighting against the terrorists/would be terrorist/terror preachers within their religion*.





The problem with that statement is that you are talking as if Islam is one religion, when its not, its like christianity, its actually made up of many religions.

Has any protestant religion ever been able to change the catholics doctrines? I don't think so.

Asking a moderate muslim to change the behaviour of ISIS would be like asking a baptist to change the catholic religion, they are separate things


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Ves said:


> Can you explain what you think "Sharia Law" is? Without understanding what you think it is,  it's fairly hard to answer this question.




It's a code of conduct for Muslims (similar to canon law for Christianity), but one that provides penalties for breaches. It's based on the Koran and Mohammad's teachings.

For example one of it's rules are that Muslims can only marry other Muslims.

That is clearly a breach of a persons right to marry whoever they want, and the reason why a princess was beheaded in Saudi Arabia.


----------



## Ves (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a code of conduct for Muslims (similar to canon law for Christianity), but one that provides penalties for breaches. It's based on the Koran and Mohammad's teachings.
> 
> For example one of it's rules are that Muslims can only marry other Muslims.
> 
> That is clearly a breach of a persons right to marry whoever they want, and the reason why a princess was beheaded in Saudi Arabia.



Is it the same in every Muslim country or is it flexible? Are the penalties interchangeable for non-physical punishments in modern times?

Do other "Western style" laws often operate alongside Sharia?


----------



## Tisme (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Here Is a video of some christians burning an old lady alive because she is a "witch".






I doubt he'd get refugee status... why... because he's purportedly christian. If however he was Muslim...well we don't want to be seen to be sectarian do we.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Ves said:


> Is it the same in every Muslim country or is it flexible? Are the penalties interchangeable for non-physical punishments in modern times?




That's the problem isn't it, we just don't know how the responsible person (whoever that is) will interpret the "Law". If the Law says that there is a penalty of cutting ones hand off for theft then maybe some hard line cleric might decide to apply it.

So a law that flexes and bends according to the "Judge" is not a law we should have.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That is clearly a breach of a persons right to marry whoever they want, and the reason why a princess was beheaded in Saudi Arabia.



 Western countries would be a safe place in comparison if one did sin.


----------



## Ves (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That's the problem isn't it, we just don't know how the responsible person (whoever that is) will interpret the "Law". If the Law says that there is a penalty of cutting ones hand off for theft then maybe some hard line cleric might decide to apply it.
> 
> So a law that flexes and bends according to the "Judge" is not a law *we should have*.



So are you saying that Muslims have their own judges in Australia or do you think they plan to in the future?  Is there any solid indications of this at the moment?


----------



## Tisme (15 February 2017)

Ves said:


> So are you saying that Muslims have their own judges in Australia or do you think they plan to in the future?  Is there any solid indications of this at the moment?



http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...y/news-story/0cb6ef33bf79abcf3631384f339e85db


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...y/news-story/0cb6ef33bf79abcf3631384f339e85db






> "There is just no way they can get a divorce unless they can get a religious divorce."




Just one way this religion interferes with people's rights.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Ves said:


> So are you saying that Muslims have their own judges in Australia or do you think they plan to in the future?  Is there any solid indications of this at the moment?




There is no "ultimate authority" in Islam, like the Pope for Catholics. It all comes down to the local Mufti's .


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The problem with that statement is that you are talking as if Islam is one religion, when its not, its like christianity, its actually made up of many religions.



Okay there are branches and something not widely known. The Quran teachings can be lived to the exact wording or liberally, depending on the country one lives in.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

Religious influence exists on food labels. Simply amazing how a religion exercises influence over food distributors. I have eaten vegemite since childhood and 8 years ago they started getting religious about their product. Changing times.



> "This is a private company trying to make money," Mr Muehlenberg said. "I don't think they care a rip about offending the tastebuds of Muslims. "Why do we have to keep bending over backwards to please minority groups? There are only 300,000 Muslims in Australia out of 22 million people, which is a very small percentage. Of course, there's a case for making allowances for different cultures, but aren't we getting a bit carried away with political correctness here? It's ridiculous."


----------



## Ves (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no "ultimate authority" in Islam, like the Pope for Catholics. It all comes down to the local Mufti's .



I'm still confused a bit.

Because the Wikipedia article for Sharia says:



> Ottoman rulers achieved additional control over the legal system by promulgating their own legal code (_qanun_) and turning muftis into state employees.




It sounds like from this point of time (some) Muslim countries begun Westernising their laws,  but left some parts of the Sharia in place (mainly to do with personal / domestic disputes).



> In the modern era, sharia-based criminal laws were widely replaced by statutes inspired by European models.[3][6] Judicial procedures and legal education in the Muslim world were likewise brought in line with European practice.[3] While the constitutions of most Muslim-majority states contain references to sharia, its classical rules were largely retained only in personal status (family) laws




It appears that there are two pushes in Muslim communities.   One is tending towards Westernisation of law  (probably like the process Christian societies undertook in the modern era)  and the other is a push back by Fundamentalists towards the Sharia (again,  like the Fundamentalist Christians did as well).

Can you clear this up for me?


----------



## Ves (15 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...y/news-story/0cb6ef33bf79abcf3631384f339e85db



If nothing else it's symbolic that they require an Imam/priest to annul the marriage.  We both know it's an empty gesture in itself that literally means nothing from a practical or legal perspective.

How can you secretly have a divorce recorded in the Australian government systems?

If they require a ceremony to go with the official documentation then that's their issue.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Ves said:


> Can you clear this up for me?




Not really, I'm not a Muslim.

But when a law is open to hard line interpretation then it's a law that reduces the rights of some people to below that of non Muslims living in the same society.

eg according to Sharia law a man can divorce a wife simply by telling her that they are no longer married, whereas a woman needs her husbands permission to divorce. Now maybe one Imam will interpret that strictly, another may interpret it more liberally, who knows, but if it's not consistent then it's not a good law.


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Religious influence exists on food labels. Simply amazing how a religion exercises influence over food distributors. I have eaten vegemite since childhood and 8 years ago they started getting religious about their product. Changing times.




It's called marketing, and it is a very cheap form of marketing.

Have you ever complained about those "Happy little Vegemite ads", that sort of advertising costs lots more than a Halal certification, or what about a cricket sponsorship? thats heaps expensive.


----------



## Ves (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Not really, I'm not a Muslim.
> 
> But when a law is open to hard line interpretation then it's a law that reduces the rights of some people to below that of non Muslims living in the same society.
> 
> eg according to Sharia law a man can divorce a wife simply by telling her that they are no longer married, whereas a woman needs her husbands permission to divorce. Now maybe one Imam will interpret that strictly, another may interpret it more liberally, who knows, but if it's not consistent then it's not a good law.



Yeah,  but again,  it looks like the strict enforcement of Sharia is often lessened in Muslim countries that have undergone the process of modernising their laws to a more State based approach.

It seems your example only applies to those who are Fundamentalist Islams who hark back to the traditional ways.

agreed?


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Okay there are branches and something not widely known. The Quran teachings can be lived to the exact wording or liberally, depending on the country one lives in.




exactly like christianity.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It's called marketing, and it is a very cheap form of marketing.
> 
> Have you ever complained about those "Happy little Vegemite ads", that sort of advertising costs lots more than a Halal certification, or what about a cricket sponsorship? thats heaps expensive.



As you may have observed I am not a religious person and believe religion will not be a part of non religious peoples lives. I used to have Jehovah Witnesses knock on the door for a persuasion session but haven't seen them biking around for many years now. There will be ebbs and flows but in the distant future people will come to realise there is no entity looking over them. There is life, death and thinking in between. 'With our thoughts we make the world'. Gautama Buddha.
.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Ves said:


> It seems your example only applies to those who are Fundamentalist Islams who hark back to the traditional ways.
> 
> agreed?




At the moment Muslims are well and truly outnumbered in Australia, so naturally they moderate their views so they are not perceived to be hard line. If their numbers increase beyond a critical mass they may indeed hark back to the old ways as they have in other countries eg Charlie Hebdo.

That's why a lot of people are arguing against further Muslim immigration, and we must also realise that like other religious groups they have as many children as they can, breeding little warriors for the cause.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> exactly like christianity.



Are christians practicing barbarous behaviour in the world today?


----------



## Ves (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> At the moment Muslims are well and truly outnumbered in Australia, so naturally they moderate their views so they are not perceived to be hard line. If their numbers increase beyond a critical mass they may indeed hark back to the old ways as they have in other countries eg Charlie Hebdo.
> 
> That's why a lot of people are arguing against further Muslim immigration, and we must also realise that like other religious groups they have as many children as they can, breeding little warriors for the cause.



So basically:

Muslims come.
More Muslims come.
Out number everyone else.
A minority preaches extremist Sharia enforcement and the rest just accept it. 
They overthrow the Australian government and change the law.

Any changes?


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

Interesting how the London 'sharia patrols' got shut down and people imprisoned yet Germany last year decreed 'sharia patrols' legal.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

Trump is eccentric but what led him to believe Muslims were a threat to national security. Is it the sheer proliferation of Middle Eastern emigrants or Fed. police information on cells developing within the country. To make a Presidential decree is extreme for a reason if not eccentricity alone.


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Are christians practicing barbarous behaviour in the world today?




Yes, A christian terrorist killed a bunch of muslims in a mosque in Canada just the other day.

African christians burn "Witches" and gays.


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> As you may have observed I am not a religious person and believe religion will not be a part of non religious peoples lives. I used to have Jehovah Witnesses knock on the door for a persuasion session but haven't seen them biking around for many years now. There will be ebbs and flows but in the distant future people will come to realise there is no entity looking over them. There is life, death and thinking in between. 'With our thoughts we make the world'. Gautama Buddha.
> .




I am an atheist also, I think all religions are false, But I believe in religious freedom, because religious freedom is part of a secular society, and protects me from religion, But I am against attacking innocent  people based on the actions of others, or trying to tar all people of one category of religion with the same brush.

When it comes to Vegemite I see no probably with them marketing to muslim groups.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, A christian terrorist killed a bunch of muslims in a mosque in Canada just the other day.
> 
> African christians burn "Witches" and gays.



I could not find Alexandre Bissonnette being a Christian on my internet search. A Christian being a person who reads the bible, goes to church, doesn't swear or abuse people, has respect for human life.
He was not a Christian from what I have read. Having a French background he may have felt aggrieved by the Charlie Hebdo massacre & terror attacks and as you say tarred all Muslims with the same brush.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Ves said:


> So basically:
> 
> Muslims come.
> More Muslims come.
> ...




Nope, you have it to a tee.


----------



## Ves (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Nope, you have it to a tee.



It's also possible that increased exposure to far more moderate morality systems such as those in the Western cultures that these people are now living in,  will speed up the "modernisation" of their legal and moral systems.

The trend has already started in their own cultures,  it's hard to see it reversing.  The West industrialized much faster,  but the Globalisation of economies, will make sure the trend will be very hard to slow down by the Fundamentalists / Traditionalists over there.

The after-life is a very hard sell when the instant gratification/hedonism of consumerism is available.

I actually see this scenario as much, much more likely.


----------



## Tisme (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Nope, you have it to a tee.




how about adding they will turn the place into  7.7 sq kms of indolent filth, squalor and slum....just like back home.


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> I could not find Alexandre Bissonnette being a Christian on my internet search.





He described himself as a Christian crusader.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2017...rusader-and-avid-trump-supporter-on-facebook/



Wysiwyg said:


> A Christian being a person who reads the bible, goes to church, doesn't swear or abuse people, has respect for human life.




Lol, so basically you a simply defining anyone who is not a nice person as being "not christian".

Do you jump through the same hoops to get Islam off the hook like that, I sure a lot of muslims out there don't consider ISIS as real muslims either.



Wysiwyg said:


> Having a French background he may have felt aggrieved by the Charlie Hebdo massacre & terror attacks and as you say tarred all Muslims with the same brush.





Now it just seems like you are making excuses for this terrorist.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

Ves said:


> It's also possible that increased exposure to far more moderate morality systems such as those in the Western cultures that these people are now living in, will speed up the "modernisation" of their legal and moral systems.





I'd rather not take that chance.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/723548/Islam-divide-civil-war-streets-Britain


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Lol, so basically you a simply defining anyone who is not a nice person as being "not christian".



The 'he was a Christian' tag is complete b.s. 


> Do you jump through the same hoops to get Islam off the hook like that, I sure a lot of muslims out there don't consider ISIS as real muslims either.



If they practice the religion, no matter what branch, they are Muslim. To say they are not real Muslims is a lie. 



> Now it just seems like you are making excuses for this terrorist.



Didn't we both.


----------



## noco (15 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> The 'he was a Christian' tag is complete b.s.
> If they practice the religion, no matter what branch, they are Muslim. To say they are not real Muslims is a lie.
> 
> Didn't we both.





If you are a Muslim, you would know the Koran backwards......If you are a Muslim you believe in Sharia law.


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Perhaps just a ruse to make them look like clean skins?




That's what I thought. But the post doesn't seem to suggest that that's why ISIS/Islam is evil.


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> *Beautiful!
> *
> What people are saying is the people who live in or come to this country with plans of terrorist attack in the name of a certain religion, as we have already seen here and overseas, will not be accepted. *The good members of that religion can be fighting against the terrorists/would be terrorist/terror preachers within their religion*. I seriously want that to be happening otherwise the good ones may not be good at all. That is the question, what is the ultimate goal of that religion? Is it a religion of peace?




Whatever happened to presumed innocent?

Why must anyone, from any group, must somehow prove themselves that they're against terrorists? We have to ask if they're for it or not? They have to go out of their way to prove that if they see anything, they'll definitely call?

There are surveys conducted by Pews or one of those US polling houses... it asks people around the world who they think are a threat to world peace.

The overwhelming majority of the world says the US is the greatest threat to world peace. 

Should we believe the world's opinions or should we read our own press?

The choices are pretty simple... we citizens of a democracy can either delude ourselves, listen to your own sycophantic media gurus, believe in the greatness of all that we do, no matter how bad or nasty it is, all that we do, as Sam Harris and his kind of intellectuals have say... all that we do we do with good intention. So that makes it all A O K.

Anyway...


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> The overwhelming majority of the world says the US is the greatest threat to world peace.




Sounds pretty biased to me. China , Russia, Syria and North Korea would be on the head of my list.


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I should have thought it was obvious. Primitive countries are more likely to have religious inspired violence because their inhabitants are less educated. So the point is that it's invalid to show videos of religious violence in primitive countries and say that is comparable to what happens in advanced societies.
> 
> So where are your examples of Christian violence in Australia ? We can show examples of Islamic violence in Australia, so that is the basis of comparison; ie Islamic vs Christian violence in the same environment.




Get a White Christian right? White Christians are not the same as Black primitive African "Christians".


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Get a White Christian right? White Christians are not the same as Black primitive African "Christians".




I haven't heard of any cases in Australia of Christians burning alleged "witches".


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sounds pretty biased to me. China , Russia, Syria and North Korea would be on the head of my list.




When's the last time those country invaded any other country? 

When's the last time Iran take over its neighbour's? Or strike at them?

How many Carrier Battle Group does China, Russia, Syria, North Korea has? China's about to have one? Russia has two? The others couldn't afford to feed their own people.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that those countries are nice places or peaceful... but as a threat to world peace, they're yet to have the capability, and has not gone offshore to liberate any country. 

China and the seas around it,  I know... but what would you do if you were China? You would sit idly by and watch as the US park a whole bunch of hardware on bases ringing your entire seaboard? What if the US decided to blockade China? Who will its trades be affected? How will it fuel and feed itself? Most of its people will starve in a few months.

Or Russia... the Ukraine is right next to Russia's border. And I know Putin isn't a nice guy, but any non-idiot in his position, who want to protect his country's sovereignty, would never permit the Ukraine, or Syria, to fall and become military bases to an adversary. 

It is incredible that we somehow believe that "we" have the right to take out any gov't we like, for their own good of course... that no country ought to stop its client state from falling over to another imperial power... that we can strike anyone and they have to like it, else they're a terrorist and it's fair game before it was also fair game.

If any of us care for the future of our country and its value, those noble ideals... starts with being honest with ourselves. Then maybe then we might start to also care for our own citizens who aren't so lucky.


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I haven't heard of any cases in Australia of Christians burning alleged "witches".




Go back a few decades and change the word to "savages". Maybe they weren't burnt... waste of gas, just let the sun take care of it when they're driven far off enough into the desert.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Go back a few decades and change the word to "savages". Maybe they weren't burnt... waste of gas, just let the sun take care of it when they're driven far off enough into the desert.




How do you know that the people who did that were Christians ? Not every white Anglo Saxon is a Christian , I think you tend to lump every white  into the same group if you know what I mean.


----------



## luutzu (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> How do you know that the people who did that were Christians ? Not every white Anglo Saxon is a Christian , I think you tend to lump every white  into the same group if you know what I mean.




The Prime Minister and Ministers for Aborigines Affairs and such might not be genuine Christians, but the Nuns and Priests who carried out the "retraining" of half-castes, the policies of cleaning house were made based on "Christian Value" of God would've wanted all these lost sheep dead or converted, or something.

It's an example of a lot of war and imperialism being done in the name of a religion or a noble value. Once it's carried out, done and dusted... the later generations might look back in horror and say "We're Sorry", really seriously, sorry. Then they try to close the gap or whatever.

We have a great democracy here in Australia... and as Chomsky said of the US and Western democracies - that the people are too enlightened, won too much rights, are too nice and peace-loving that for warmongers to go on imperial adventures, they'd have to resort to all these deceptions and propaganda. They have to put us on edge and make us afraid of the targeted enemy.

That's not to say that there are no serious threat or challenge to our way of life... but that we have to be a bit more alert and keep the bastards honest, as the saying goes.

Else we're going to lose everything, and indirectly commit a whole bunch of nasty shiet.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> When's the last time those country invaded any other country?




China invaded Tibet
Russia invaded Ukraine
North Korea is just plain barking mad and could launch missiles at South Korea any time
Syria is the cause of the most bloody war in decades

Surely you don't dismiss these as "hiccups" do you ?


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> The 'he was a Christian' tag is complete b.s.
> If they practice the religion, no matter what branch, they are Muslim. To say they are not real Muslims is a lie.




Explain why the Christian tag is bs

You seem to be saying "all Muslims are Muslims, regardless of what branch so all are responsible, but you are only a considered Christian if you do these nice things which I like, if you don't do these nice things and do bad instead I will not hold you responsible as a Christian.

It's a version of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

Anyone that does bad, you automatically say "well they can't be a Christian" so you editing out the Christian bad guys, but you are prepared to lump all the Muslim guys regardless of what sect they are from


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

noco said:


> If you are a Muslim, you would know the Koran backwards......If you are a Muslim you believe in Sharia law.




So by that definition, there aren't many Muslims at all, because just like the bible, most Muslims don't read the qu'ran, and a lot of them don't believe in sharia law.


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I haven't heard of any cases in Australia of Christians burning alleged "witches".




I haven't heard of any cases of Muslims beheading people in Australia either, but you still use that against them.


----------



## noco (16 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So by that definition, there aren't many Muslims at all, because just like the bible, most Muslims don't read the qu'ran, and a lot of them don't believe in sharia law.



In that case they are not Muslims.


----------



## noco (16 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I haven't heard of any cases of Muslims beheading people in Australia either, but you still use that against them.




Not yet, but it will happen sooner or later....It really does not matter whether they kill by beheading, car  bombing, suicide bombers or being mowed down by a car all they want to do is kill Christians and Infidels.

With all these demonstrations and rioting happening almost on a daily basis. it is only a matter of time when their will be an uprising of Australian civilians taking the law into their own hands...It is already happening in some parts of Europe. 

That is when a civil war on Muslims will begin.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I haven't heard of any cases of Muslims beheading people in Australia either, but you still use that against them.




What about Curtis Cheng, killed by a Muslim outside Parramatta police station, Lindt Cafe , Muslim man attacks policemen with knife. Off duty soldier beheaded by Muslims in Britain ? 

Don't you watch the news ?


----------



## Tisme (16 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I haven't heard of any cases of Muslims beheading people in Australia either, but you still use that against them.




You haven't been following the news lately where the coppers thwarted a planned beheading?


----------



## Tisme (16 February 2017)

noco said:


> In that case they are not Muslims.





Perhaps not, but just like disenchanted or disinterested Liberal Party supporters who haven't got a clue what the party manifesto is, they will defend it as if like a reflex and blame Labor for the stink.


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2017)

noco said:


> Not yet, but it will happen sooner or later....It really does not matter whether they kill by beheading, car  bombing, suicide bombers or being mowed down by a car





Have any of those happened in Australia yet?



SirRumpole said:


> What about Curtis Cheng, killed by a Muslim outside Parramatta police station, Lindt Cafe , Muslim man attacks policemen with knife.





Yeah, but you specifically mentioned one form of christian violence, e.g. burning witches, and asked if it had happened in Australia, obviously the answer is no, but the answer is also no when asked about specific forms of muslim violence.



SirRumpole said:


> Off duty soldier beheaded by Muslims in Britain ?
> 
> Don't you watch the news ?




Well the Canadian christian crusader killed 6 muslims.

Why is it that within minutes of that attack the media called it Terrorism when they thought the attacker was muslim, but when they found out he was a white christian they dropped the terrorist label???

I think thats an important question, and relates to how we think of muslims, which is unfair.


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> You haven't been following the news lately where the coppers thwarted a planned beheading?




Good so our intelligence agencies are doing their job, I can't see how this means we should ban all muslims.


----------



## Tisme (16 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Good so our intelligence agencies are doing their job, I can't see how this means we should ban all muslims.




So when they do succeed, you will be calling the family to tell them it's ok and not to fret because not all Muslims bad guys only a few and we should learn to accept that? 

Bad apples in a bag of apples will contaminate the good apples. If you can't separate out the two you throw the bag & contents away, but most people just throw out the lot just incase.

I still don't trust Catholic Irishmen won't blow some family up in Australia, let alone a bunch of highly susceptible to religious suggestion people who parade their distinction in uniform as a snub and offence to us worthless Kafirs.


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> So when they do succeed, you will be calling the family to tell them it's ok and not to fret because not all Muslims bad guys only a few and we should learn to accept that?




As long as you ae going to call all the victims of alcohol violence and drink driving and tell them not to fret because not all drinkers are bad guys only a few and we should learn to accept that? because you will be making phone calls all the time, a lot more than me.

-------
What you have to revise is that my argument is that islamic violence among those we have allowed in is so rare, that I don't think we should mistreat all muslims, thats all I am saying, I can't see why you think mistreating all muslims will some how lower our risk any further than it already is, I mean its so low that it is almost non existent.

It is much lower than many of the other potential threats we live with, it just strikes at peoples emotions more


----------



## Tisme (16 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> As long as you ae going to call all the victims of alcohol violence and drink driving and tell them not to fret because not all drinkers are bad guys only a few and we should learn to accept that?
> 
> -------
> What you have to revise is that my argument is that islamic violence among those we have allowed in is so rare, that I don't think we should mistreat all muslims, thats all I am saying, I can't see why you think mistreating all muslims will some how lower our risk any further than it already is, I mean its co low that it is almost non existent.





But alcoholics don't kneel down to the god Bacchus/Dionysus and proudly commit atrocities in his name. Also the Govt has stepped in and pings drink drivers, bans them from the driving society, etc. It's issues licences after minimal training and acceptance of the road rules.

We majority don't have two masters, because we accept our role as a nation. Forgiving people's social acquiescence, harmful intent and viscous actions because they embrace an alien nation and choose to ignore our rule of law as opposed to some made up blood lusting yarns only encourages more of the same.

The acid test is how you would react if you found your long off grand kids were being taught and indoctrinated into hate, detestation and disregard for anyone but a Muslim, because you decided only a few Muslims carry the disease, when infact they all carry it as willing followers.


----------



## Wysiwyg (16 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Whatever happened to presumed innocent?
> 
> Why must anyone, from any group, must somehow prove themselves that they're against terrorists? We have to ask if they're for it or not? They have to go out of their way to prove that if they see anything, they'll definitely call?



No one must. Those filthy priests were covered up by their own in that other untrustworthy religion. 
Which muslims are gonna go full literal in this country? The books words are (hopefully not) forever and a revert to literal will always be a threat to non muslims.


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> But alcoholics don't kneel down to the god Bacchus/Dionysus and proudly commit atrocities in his name.





So what? they do more damage to Australian society than terrorists at present


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## SirRumpole (16 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So what? they do more damage to Australian society than terrorists at present




That can be reduced by increasing alcohol taxes resulting in less drinking or putting RBT's outside pubs and clubs.

Terrorism can be reduced by letting in less potential terrorists.


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That can be reduced by increasing alcohol taxes resulting in less drinking or putting RBT's outside pubs and clubs.
> 
> Terrorism can be reduced by letting in less potential terrorists.




Thats why we have vetting of refugees and immigrants.

"Thats doesn't stop all potential threats" you will probably say, and no it doesn't but neither do RBT's and Taxes.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Thats why we have vetting of refugees and immigrants.




Unfortunately that's not good enough. A lot of proven terrorists have been born here, but still carry the disease of indoctrination. Continuing Muslim immigration is like letting a lot of typhoid Marys into the country. You never know who they will infect, or if they will contract the disease themselves.


----------



## dutchie (16 February 2017)

*Only 20% Of Europeans Want Muslim Immigration To Continue, 'Massive' Poll Finds*

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...uslim-immigration-continue-massive-poll-finds


----------



## noco (16 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> So when they do succeed, you will be calling the family to tell them it's ok and not to fret because not all Muslims bad guys only a few and we should learn to accept that?
> 
> Bad apples in a bag of apples will contaminate the good apples. If you can't separate out the two you throw the bag & contents away, but most people just throw out the lot just incase.
> 
> I still don't trust Catholic Irishmen won't blow some family up in Australia, let alone a bunch of highly susceptible to religious suggestion people who parade their distinction in uniform as a snub and offence to us worthless Kafirs.





I can sees a few mosques being own up by the Aussie civilian army.....


----------



## SirRumpole (16 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Thats why we have vetting of refugees and immigrants.
> 
> "Thats doesn't stop all potential threats" you will probably say, and no it doesn't but neither do RBT's and Taxes.




I appreciate that you are standing up for people that you come in contact with, most of course are good people and want to get along in peace. Probably a lot of them are only Muslims because their parents were like most Christians I expect. However I think that the only way to dilute the religion is not to keep adding to it by importing more. We want to get rid of the ideology not the people.

When we import people from Britain, NZ, France, Germany etc, we have no idea whether they are religious or not, when we import from Muslim countries it's pretty well certain that they have all been indoctrinated from the time they were old enough to speak. The ideology is the problem and unfortunately every Muslim has the potential of using that ideology for evil.


----------



## noco (16 February 2017)

noco said:


> I can sees a few mosques being own up by the Aussie civilian army.....



Rectifying typo error.
I can sees a few mosques being blown up by the Aussie civilian army.....[/QUOTE]


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## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Unfortunately that's not good enough. A lot of proven terrorists have been born here, but still carry the disease of indoctrination. Continuing Muslim immigration is like letting a lot of typhoid Marys into the country. You never know who they will infect, or if they will contract the disease themselves.




Most people that kill due to alcohol violence and drink driving are born here, but carry the disease of indoctrination into alcohol culture from European heritage, continuing European immigration from drinking cultures is like letting a lot of Typhoid Marys into the country, you never know who they will infect.


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

noco said:


> Rectifying typo error.
> I can sees a few mosques being blown up by the Aussie civilian army.....



[/QUOTE]

And is that a good thing?


----------



## noco (17 February 2017)

And is that a good thing?[/QUOTE]

Yes I don't mind admitting my typing errors....Thanks VC.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Most people that kill due to alcohol violence and drink driving are born here, but carry the disease of indoctrination into alcohol culture from European heritage, continuing European immigration from drinking cultures is like letting a lot of Typhoid Marys into the country, you never know who they will infect.




You don't solve one problem by diverting to another problem. Both Islam and drink driving can be tackled at the same time.


----------



## Tink (17 February 2017)

I hope I have misinterpreted your post, noco, because in Australia we don't bomb and destroy buildings, and murder people.

I am against that, as I said about the 'political terrorists' in the USA, that bombed and destroyed their university in Berkeley, to shut down freedom of speech.


----------



## noco (17 February 2017)

With the lack of action by the Andrews Labor Government in Victoria in  allowing Muslims to run riot in Melbourne when a non Muslim organization organizes a meeting and gets disrupted by these hoons, it is only a matter of time when there will be an up rising among the civilian population...They do not hesitate to bash even by standers with a camera....They do not hesitate to damage property.....They think nothing about damaging the a car they may be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

What we need is some ex army officers take the initiative to rally and train an army of volunteers...We have some 60,000 volunteer fire fighters so I am sure we could recruit 10,000 or 20,000 into a Volunteer Anti Muslim Operation (VAMO) to be called upon at a moments notice to protect the rights of every day Australians who want to hold a meeting and express their freedom of speech without disruption.....It recently happened in Europe and has worked very well.

The do gooders on this Forum are always preaching what   peaceful people Muslims are but daily news in the media appears to indicate something different...With the increase in Muslim numbers, we are now observing more muscle being displayed by these Muslim Radicals......Most of them are teenagers not long out of school after having been brainwashed with contents of the Koran 5 times per day.....This is the outcome of something I have mentioned on several occasions.

Governments of all persuasions seem reluctant to intervene and this why Pauline Hanson has become so popular because she understands what people crying out for and that is some action on Muslim activities. 

I know I will be called a racist, a bigot and a Muslim hater, but it is OK for these Muslim radicals to parade down Flinders Street with placards of hate for our way of life.....It is OK for them to burn our National flag.....It is OK for them to stop freedom of speech.....It is OK for them to bash someone taking a photo of them in riot mood.

And it will only get worse if we allow them to continuously get away with their crimes.


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

noco said:


> And is that a good thing?





Let me rephrase,

Do you consider the blowing up of mosques a good thing?


SirRumpole said:


> You don't solve one problem by diverting to another problem. Both Islam and drink driving can be tackled at the same time.




Yes, but your answer to one is to target the offenders, and the answer to the other is to attack the rights of thousands of innocent people.

Which is silly considering the over reaction is to the smaller threat.


----------



## noco (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Let me rephrase,
> 
> Do you consider the blowing up of mosques a good thing?
> 
> ...






Value Collector said:


> Let me rephrase,
> 
> Do you consider the blowing up of mosques a good thing?
> 
> ...




I made a comment that I could see a few mosques being blown up by an Aussie civilian army...

Whether I condone it or not is irrelevant to the statement.....

Things could get very ugly if  not controlled and there could well be a trigger by a group of unhappy ant Muslims particularly if one of their kinsmen was killed in some Muslim barbaric way..It could set off a revenge.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, but your answer to one is to target the offenders, and the answer to the other is to attack the rights of thousands of innocent people.




No I think you have it wrong there. People have no "rights" to migrate to this country unless we say they can. It's  like letting someone into your own house, YOU have the choice to let them in or not.


----------



## Tisme (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, but your answer to one is to target the offenders, and the answer to the other is to attack the rights of thousands of innocent people.
> 
> .




That shouldn't be too unfamiliar to your, even at your young age. We have all had our previous rights eroded by successive govts because of the actions of the few .  We can't publicly express an opinion lest it violates a vilification law, insults someone's preciousness, there's a constant harangue by authorities to make us pay for human error, we actually pay for cameras on safe strips of road so we can pay more in fines to keep people who want to control us in work, we can't do this we can't do that and people wonder why Hanson and Trump are popular.


----------



## Tisme (17 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> . It's  like letting someone into your own house, YOU have the choice to let them in or not.




Do you? 

Scenario 1: I bet there is a clause somewhere that a govt can compulsorily take you house and land with meagre compensation and parachute a couple of dozen refugee families into it

Scenario 2: You live in Moorooka and some local Eritrean of Sudanese thugs want in


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No I think you have it wrong there. People have no "rights" to migrate to this country unless we say they can. It's  like letting someone into your own house, YOU have the choice to let them in or not.




Check out article 14 in the UN Charter of human rights.

*"Article 14.*
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution."

So we can not refuse refugees

Also I am not just talking about migrants, people want to do things like ban the burqa, banning the burqa is taking away freedoms and rights.

You might be ok with it because it doesn't affect you,.. yet.

But I want to live in a country that respects personal freedoms and rights, and seeks to expand them where ever possible, not a country of scared people looking for more ways to take away my freedoms in the name of security.

I admit you can't have 100% freedom and 100% security, we must lose some freedom to have some security, but a society that is willing to give up personal freedoms for phone security measures is getting ripped off.


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> That shouldn't be too unfamiliar to your, even at your young age. We have all had our previous rights eroded by successive govts because of the actions of the few .




Exactly my point, we should resist any loss of freedom unless it translates to a very big benefit.

These anti muslim laws would not be good value, the loss of freedoms and benefits would be, but the benefit would be basically nil.


----------



## Tisme (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Exactly my point, we should resist any loss of freedom unless it translates to a very big benefit.
> 
> These anti muslim laws would not be good value, the loss of freedoms and benefits would be, but the benefit would be basically nil.





I don't think Muslims should be singled out and you are right to worry that any laws will always migrated into the mainstream and punish the innocent.

I don't know the real number of ar5eholes who have been sent back whence they came because the broke the law, but it seems to me there are varieties of obnoxious people who have similar looks and similar belief systems amongst themselves who seem unable to coexist in an advanced society without some kind of vulgar display of mindless violence, mind numbing obedience to an alternative invisible law maker, active desire to live cultural ghettos, but an insipid display against obviously inappropriate behaviours. 

Migrants have always setup support associations to cocoon new arrivals and second gens, but they also made their voices heard that this was a new home, a new start and a gracious host (which one day they would become). This Muslim lot display no overt desire to integrate and discipline their offspring against the same weakness of mind and lack of just courage that has meant over a thousand years of poverty and misery. I can only suggest the consistent enslavement to a punitive religion has resulted in an evolutionary change of the thought kernal that can't be undone in one two generations.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So we can not refuse refugees




We take a certain number of refugees, other don't. Japan has taken about 12 in the
 last ten years I think, but I don't hear anyone calling them racist.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2017)

My apologies to the Japanese. They actually accepted 27 refugees in 2015 and rejected 99% of applications.

https://www.japantoday.com/category...refugees-last-year-rejects-99-of-applications


----------



## Ves (17 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> My apologies to the Japanese. They actually accepted 27 refugees in 2015 and rejected 99% of applications.
> 
> https://www.japantoday.com/category...refugees-last-year-rejects-99-of-applications



28 last year too wasn't it?  At least you could say it's going in the 'right' direction....


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> My apologies to the Japanese. They actually accepted 27 refugees in 2015 and rejected 99% of applications.
> 
> https://www.japantoday.com/category...refugees-last-year-rejects-99-of-applications




Yes, sometimes when a woman is running down the street being chased by an attacker, some people just lock the door turn the lights off and act like they aren't home, others try and help the person, even if it increases their own risk.

I don't know about you, but I know which type I would hope I would be, and I know which type I would prefer society tried to be.
----------

But yes, Japan is probably turning away genuine refugees, and denying them their basic human right, does this make Japan moral?


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, sometimes when a woman is running down the street being chased by an attacker, some people just lock the door turn the lights off and act like they aren't home, others try and help the person, even if it increases their own risk.




Fine, but when the attacker goes away , the woman goes on her way and doesn't live in your home for the rest of their lives (and their children etc...)



> I don't know about you, but I know which type I would hope I would be, and I know which type I would prefer society tried to be.
> ----------




There is a limit to how much we can help. You have seen our budgetary position ?



> But yes, Japan is probably turning away genuine refugees, and denying them their basic human right, does this make Japan moral?




No comment on Japan's morality, the point is that we are currently doing a lot more than some who are as well or better off than we are.


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Your claim was that you can't be a Muslim unless you agree with sharia law.
> 
> My position is that there are a lot of Muslims who don't agree with sharia law and don't want it as a government rule.
> 
> ...




But we ain't talking about Scotsmen or porridge,  we talking Islam


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Fine, but when the attacker goes away , the woman goes on her way and doesn't live in your home for the rest of their lives (and their children etc...)
> 
> 
> .




You certainly don't send her back to live with the attacker



SirRumpole said:


> There is a limit to how much we can help. You have seen our budgetary position ?
> .





Plenty of other areas of waste that can be eliminated before we decide we can't help those in need.



SirRumpole said:


> the point is that we are currently doing a lot more than some who are as well or better off than we are.





yes, I am happy about that, but people here want to stop the help, just because the person in need was born into a certain religion.



wayneL said:


> But we ain't talking about Scotsmen or porridge,  we talking Islam




I am not sure of your point wayne, do you not understand the concept of the "No true scotsman fallacy" or are you just saying we have to limit the conversation to strictly "Islam", because in that case you may have to give a definition of Islam, because its not one thing


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

Here is a really good video that explains some of the logical traps I think you guys are falling into that causes you to over estimate the risk we face from terrorism.

It's also good to understand these points from an investment perspective.


----------



## noco (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Here is a really good video that explains some of the logical traps I think you guys are falling into that causes you to over estimate the risk we face from terrorism.
> 
> It's also good to understand these points from an investment perspective.





Theory is one thing...Putting it into practice is something else.


----------



## noco (17 February 2017)

What is happening in France and other European countries, sooner of later will be happening here in Australia.

If the Muslim community continue to provoke us with violence, there will be an up rising of Australian citizens......We are a tolerant Nation until we are pushed over the edge....We will take so much and then after that look out.

The political revolution has started.



For some unknown reason this video has been removed.

It was about Muslin radicals smashing the rear window of a Police vehicle and fire bombing it while the police were still inside.


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2017)

VC

Im saying the no true Scotsman fallacy is not valud here, IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2017)

The No True Scotsman argument is ridiculous.

"No true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge" is simply a matter of opinion and can be dismissed with "Says who".

I really don't see that that has anything to do with the refugee debate.


----------



## Ves (17 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The No True Scotsman argument is ridiculous.



It's not an argument,  it's an example of an informal fallacy.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2017)

Ves said:


> It's not an argument,  it's an example of an informal fallacy.




Ok, but I still can't see the relevance to the refugee debate.

It's just another VC diversion imo.


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

wayneL said:


> VC
> 
> Im saying the no true Scotsman fallacy is not valud here, IMO




Of course it is,

If someone says "a Christian wouldn't shoot someone", and then I say "here is a Christian here that shot people", and then the "well that's not a 'True Christian' ", then is is a perfect example of the no true Scotsman fallacy, it's an appeal to purity, a shifting of the goal posts.

The same has been done in the opposite fashion against Muslims here, eg "muslims believe in violence", "not all of the, do", "then they are real Muslims"


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The No True Scotsman argument is ridiculous.
> 
> "No true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge" is simply a matter of opinion and can be dismissed with "Says who".
> 
> I really don't see that that has anything to do with the refugee debate.




If you think the "no true Scotsman fallacy" is about literal Scotsman, porridge or sugar, you have completely missed the point.

The straw man fallacy is also not about real "straw men " either.

It's about a moving of the goal posts and appeals to purity, where people try and change the definition of things to maintain their position.

Eg, saying "well that person isn't a 'real' Christian then", just because the person did something bad,


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Ok, but I still can't see the relevance to the refugee debate.
> 
> It's just another VC diversion imo.




People said that the guy that killed in Canada can't of been a Christian if here killed.

That's the no true Scotsman fallacy right there,

Eg saying "Christians don't commit terrorist acts" and then when confronted with examples of Christians committing terrorist acts you say "well they arent real Christians", is exactly the type of phony logic used in the example of the Scotsman example of saying"No "true" Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge" when trying to defend your claim that all Scotsman avoid sugar


----------



## Wysiwyg (17 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The straw man fallacy is also not about real "straw men " either.
> 
> It's about a moving of the goal posts and appeals to purity, *where people try and change the definition of things to maintain their position*.



Like tagging that kid shooter as a Christian to crank up the Mus. v Christian b.s.
Like I have the King George version in the draw near me at the desk here but I am far from a "Christian". Evidence ....


----------



## Wysiwyg (18 February 2017)

Please everyone if I go out and kill my antagonist tomorrow don't tag me a Christian. Lol James, sorry George you whiting.


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Like tagging that kid shooter as a Christian to crank up the Mus. v Christian b.s.
> Like I have the King George version in the draw near me at the desk here but I am far from a "Christian". Evidence ....
> 
> ]




He described himself as a Christian crusader, if a young Arab man called himself a Muslim crusader before the attack would you be jumping through hoops to separate him from Islam, I don't think so, it's hypocrisy.

On his Facebook page, the self-described Christian Crusader liked and followed many Christian leaders such as Pope John Paul II, William Lane Craig, Edward Feser and others. In addition, he liked the Facebook page of Le Pen, Trump, and other right-wing politicians.

It seems clear Bissonnette was a Christian terrorist. Yet it is unlikely that many in the mainstream media will identify him as such. However, rest assured, had he been a self-identified Muslim Crusader shooting up a Christian church, the media would have been quick to identify him as a Muslim terrorist.


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Like tagging that kid shooter as a Christian to crank up the Mus. v Christian b.s.
> Like I have the King George version in the draw near me at the desk here but I am far from a "Christian". Evidence ....
> 
> View attachment 69996




While you have that bible, why not flick through to Deuteronomy 17, you will see that it clearly states people that worship other gods should be put to death.

So before you go saying it's impossible for a Christian to get the idea of killing Muslims in their head, why not try reading your bible a bit.


----------



## Tink (18 February 2017)

You always kick Christianity, which is Western Civilisation.
Have you ever travelled to Europe -- you may learn a few things.

Have you ever travelled to an Islamic Country?
How are your freedoms there?


----------



## Tisme (18 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> While you have that bible, why not flick through to Deuteronomy 17, you will see that it clearly states people that worship other gods should be put to death.
> 
> So before you go saying it's impossible for a Christian to get the idea of killing Muslims in their head, why not try reading your bible a bit.




You understand what "new" means as in New Testament ?


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> You understand what "new" means as in New Testament ?




The verse I mentioned is in the king James bible he held up


Tink said:


> You always kick Christianity,




Tink I kick all religion, they are all silly and deserve to be laughed at, what I am against is unfairly targeting the innocent people of one religion, and trying to remove rights from them just because they happen to be born into that religion.

All I am saying here is that if society is going to label a young muslim man that shoots some one an islamic terrorist, why don't they label the christian man a christian terrorist.

When they thought that the murders had been done by a muslim guy, the media quickly used the terrorist label, but it was drop when it was found out the guy was white.


Tink said:


> Have you ever travelled to an Islamic Country?
> How are your freedoms there?




Yes, a couple of them actually, experiences vary, but the majority of the locals in my experience are pretty friendly, we are all just people after all, if you are thinking all muslims are terrorist you are wrong.


----------



## Tisme (18 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The verse I mentioned is in the king James bible he held up




That's like saying amended legislation is not valid because only the original holds true. 

Was it Deuteronomy that went on about shall not kill?


----------



## Tisme (18 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, a couple of them actually, experiences vary, but the majority of the locals in my experience are pretty friendly, we are all just people after all, if you are thinking all muslims are terrorist you are wrong.





And if their mullahs insisted they grab a rifle and kill in the name of Allah?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> if you are thinking all muslims are terrorist you are wrong.




I doubt if any "true Australian"  believes that, but the problem is that ideology corrupts and the ideology of Islam has certainly shown to have a corrupting influence on people who would otherwise be regarded by others as moderate.

Christianity has the moderating influence of the New Testament (can you point to anywhere where Jesus said go out and kill your enemies ?),  and anyway Western society is getting more secular with more people giving up religion, except for Muslims where it is imposed on them by fear of being called apostates and then being hunted down.

Therefore, it's not valid to compare Christianity and Islam. If you are born to Muslim parents you are a Muslim and expected to conform with Islamic law for the rest of your life  or else, whereas people like me who was sent to Christian Sunday school can walk away from church any time and not be threatened by religious police.

Islam is incompatible with Western law and culture, which is why it's effect must be diluted, and the best way to do that is not let any more Muslims into the country.


----------



## Ves (18 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Was it Deuteronomy that went on about shall not kill?



Think it's Exodus and Deuteronomy.


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if any "true Australian"  believes that, but the problem is that ideology corrupts and the ideology of Islam has certainly shown to have a corrupting influence on people who would otherwise regard themselves as moderate.
> 
> Christianity has the moderating influence of the New Testament (can you point to anywhere where Jesus said go out and kill your enemies ?),  and anyway Western society is getting more secular with more people giving up religion, except for Muslims where it is imposed on them by fear of being called apostates and being hunted down.
> 
> ...




Geez Rumpy, we are good mates again......I am with you all the way on this one....On this occasion we agree to agree......


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2017)

noco said:


> Geez Rumpy, we are good mates again......I am with you all the way on this one....On this occasion we agree to agree......




You don't know how good that makes me feel.


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You don't know how good that makes me feel.




You are welcome.


----------



## Tisme (18 February 2017)

noco said:


> You are welcome.






Meanwhile I see Trump is deploying the national guard to root out illegals and undesirables....... look out  migrants.


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> .
> 
> Was it Deuteronomy that went on about shall not kill?



Even the muslims have thou shalt not kill

Though out christian history, thou shalt not kill was interpreted as "thou shalt not murder", it didn't apply to justified killings.

for example Moses, is the one that spoke to god and got the 10 commandments, that said thou shalt not kill, but in the next chapter Moses lead an Amy to go and kill thousands of people,


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> (can you point to anywhere where Jesus said go out and kill your enemies ?),





In Matthew 10:34, Jesus said,

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword"

Now, I have actually heard that verse quoted by an Australian Army Padre (priest), to a group of soldiers when talking about whether killing the enemy in the context of war is "right with god", he also explained that "thou shalt not kill" was really "thou shalt not murder innocent people".



SirRumpole said:


> (can you point to anywhere where Jesus said go out and kill your enemies ?),  and anyway Western society is getting more secular with more people giving up religion, .





Jesus also stated he didn't come to change any of the old laws, so a person wanting to kill gays or muslims can simply interpret that all the old testament still apply


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Even the muslims have thou shalt not kill
> 
> Though out christian history, thou shalt not kill was interpreted as "thou shalt not murder", it didn't apply to justified killings.
> 
> for example Moses, is the one that spoke to god and got the 10 commandments, that said thou shalt not kill, but in the next chapter Moses lead an Amy to go and kill thousands of people,




VC, need I remind you this 2017....A lot of water has flowed under the bridge in 2017 years.

Confucius says, "You cannot undo the past but you can control the future".

Now isn't that a better idea?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2017)

A former Muslim writes about Islam.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/...aks-out-about-the-koran-dilemma/?mobile=false


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

noco said:


> A lot of water has flowed under the bridge in 2017 years.





Well christianity isn't anywhere near that old anyway, and the killings in the name of christianity happen to this day.

But my point was, that the fact christianity says "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't make it better than islam, because islam says that to.


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> A former Muslim writes about Islam.
> 
> http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/...aks-out-about-the-koran-dilemma/?mobile=false




A lot of christians also think of no believers as second class citizens.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> A lot of christians also think of no believers as second class citizens.




Do they try to kill them though ?


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Do they try to kill them though ?




Yes, as I said that Canadian guy charged into a mosque and killed a group of muslims.

I uploaded a video of christians burning an old lady they claimed was a "Witch"

Here is a christian couple who's christian teachings lead them to beat their child to death.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, as I said that Canadian guy charged into a mosque and killed a group of muslims.
> 
> I uploaded a video of christians burning an old lady they claimed was a "Witch"
> 
> Here is a christian couple who's christian teachings lead them to beat their child to death.




The most famous is Proverbs 13:24: “He that spareth his *rod* hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.” Proverbs 23:13-14 offers this bit of Old Testament parenting advice: “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the *rod*, he shall not die.

Old Testament.


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The most famous is Proverbs 13:24: “He that spareth his *rod* hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.” Proverbs 23:13-14.




Yeah, basically guilting parents into beating their children, and undermining any newer techniques.



SirRumpole said:


> for if thou beatest him with the *rod*, he shall not die.




Yep, except sometimes they do die.


SirRumpole said:


> Old Testament.




Heaps of christian read proverbs, and other Old Testament stuff.

do you think the rules and advice from the Old Testament are irrelevant? where do you think the 10 commandments come from?

As you can see a lot of christians take Old Testament advice seriously, I have heard heaps of christians say "spare the rod and you will spoil the child" etc


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2017)

Hahahaha, I just stumbled across this.

If people here think they know what a christian is, and what they preach in their church etc and think they aren't thinking about the Old Testament, watch this.

I christian preacher carrying a fire arm, preaching that all his flock should own a weapon, quotes both Old and New testament.

The scary part is this is the same guy that preaches that gays deserve death, and the only thing wrong with the Florida massacre was that more gays didn't die.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Hahahaha, I just stumbled across this.
> 
> If people here think they know what a christian is, and what they preach in their church etc and think they aren't thinking about the Old Testament, watch this.
> 
> ...





It's basically the same in Islam, they don't like gays either.

But the fact that you don't seem to understand is that Muslims cause far more trouble around the world than Christians do.

Christians fit into a secular society whereas Muslims believe that Islam should *be* the government. That's where the ultimate danger to our way of life is, religious control over personal rights and freedoms. That's why Islam has to be stopped here.


----------



## dutchie (18 February 2017)

In a "Christian" society you can be Christian, atheist, Hinduist, Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish,Calithumpian, Muslim and you can even be a Hare Krishnian. You can change from any one of these to another on multiple occasions without the fear of death.
In "muslim" society you can be a muslim or dead.


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

Even the Saudi Arabians fear Muslim terrorists. 

http://www.dailywire.com/news/13535/islamophobic-saudi-arabia-deports-40000-muslim-michael-qazvini


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> In a "Christian" society you can be Christian, atheist, Hinduist, Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish,Calithumpian, Muslim and you can even be a Hare Krishnian. You can change from any one of these to another on multiple occasions without the fear of death.
> In "muslim" society you can be a muslim or dead.





I have often wondered how many Muslims, particularly Muslim women,  would like quit being tied to Islam but fear of being beheaded if found out......Fear is what keeps them in the circle.....The real figure may never be revealed but it would not surprise if it were 50% or even more.


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's basically the same in Islam, they don't like gays either.
> 
> But the fact that you don't seem to understand is that Muslims cause far more trouble around the world than Christians do.
> 
> Christians fit into a secular society whereas Muslims believe that Islam should *be* the government. That's where the ultimate danger to our way of life is, religious control over personal rights and freedoms. That's why Islam has to be stopped here.




 The problem is Sir R is who has the guts to do it.

Turnbull wants to bring in some 19,000.

Shorten says it's double or nothing.

di Natalie says I will double up  Labor + a few more.

What a strong leader should do is set up Muslim woman's shelter in various cities and invite those who want escape may do so to a safe haven.


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

This what is happening in the UK and the USA  is not far behind.......

Has the UK left their run too late.....Only time will tell......Perhaps we will see a civil war in the UK before long.

Australia take note of what is happening...Do something now.

First step is to stop any further immigration.

Second step...Round up all the Muslim men and give them a Vasectomy.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2017)

noco said:


> What a strong leader should do is set up Muslim woman's shelter in various cities and invite those who want escape may do so to a safe haven.




I've thought for a while that that would be a good idea. Give them a chance to get out of slavery.

I think even VC may agree with that.


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I've thought for a while that that would be a good idea. Give them a chance to get out of slavery.
> 
> I think even VC may agree with that.




I might put to PHON.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2017)

noco said:


> I might put to PHON.




You don't think Pauline would be interested ?


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You don't think Pauline would be interested ?




I would 100% sure.....I reckon she would jump at the idea.


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

Muslim terrorist slaughter 100,000 Christians in Nigeria.

Now if that was the reverse situation and 100,000 Muslims were slaughtered, the UNHCR would be up in arms....This is genocide....This must be stopped.

So what have the useless UNHCR done for those people in Nigeria to stop any further murders?

http://shoebat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/nigeriadead1.jpg


----------



## noco (18 February 2017)

There are tens of thousands  of Muslim women out there, just like the 4 who have escaped Islam, in the link below.

There would be  a proportionate number here in Australia as well who would give anything to break the shackles  from Islam.

The more I think about the idea of setting up shelters for Muslim women in our major cities the more I believe it will be overwhelming supported. 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...s/news-story/efbff7b41a1e536731912e23c5593e43


----------



## noco (19 February 2017)

Just like it has happened in some cities of the UK, it is beginning to happen in Western Sydney where Australian families are leaving or being pushed out in fear of their daughters being molested.

http://www.jaydafransen.com/australians-fleeing-muslim-areas-to-protect-daughters/


----------



## Value Collector (19 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> But the fact that you don't seem to understand is that Muslims cause far more trouble around the world than Christians do.




No I get that, but the fact that you don't seem to understand is that the trouble makers represent a minority, especially a minority of those here in Australia, so there is no need to attack the majority of peaceful Muslims, and attacking the majority is counter productive.



dutchie said:


> In a "Christian" society you can be Christian, atheist, Hinduist, Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish,Calithumpian, Muslim and you can even be a Hare Krishnian.




You mean in a secular society, don't forget how the Christians acted when they had to power to do as they please.



SirRumpole said:


> I've thought for a while that that would be a good idea. Give them a chance to get out of slavery.
> 
> I think even VC may agree with that.




Offcourse I agree with that, we already have them, they are just called "women's shelters" they assist all types of women, no need to make ones specifically for Muslims.


noco said:


> Muslim terrorist slaughter 100,000 Christians in Nigeria.
> 
> Now if that was the reverse situation and 100,000 Muslims were slaughtered, the UNHCR would be up in arms....This is genocide....This must be stopped.




Muslims already are the biggest group among victims of terrorism and war.


----------



## Tink (19 February 2017)




----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> no need to make ones specifically for Muslims.




In order to completely escape, Muslim women need a new identity and relocation to another area.

It's virtually like witness protection, the Muslim mafia have tentacles everywhere.


----------



## Tisme (19 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You mean in a secular society, don't forget how the Christians acted when they had to power to do as they please.




Using that logic, I could do anything I please because someone else did it hundreds of years before me. 

The fact is, Muslims cherrypick the things the innovative and industrious Christian morality West has provided them and they don't like it. They are the cheap seats wanting manna from heaven to elevate them to prosperity. 

The fact they are willing to blow themselves up and commit atrocities shows the levels of despair of being chained to an anchor that keeps them firmly in the uncouth superstitious 7th century.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> No I get that, but the fact that you don't seem to understand is that the trouble makers represent a minority, especially a minority of those here in Australia, so there is no need to attack the majority of peaceful Muslims, and attacking the majority is counter productive.




So you have no problem with the authoritarian ideology, control by fear, diminution of women's rights, religious control over rights and freedoms, religious law ?


----------



## dutchie (19 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> You can change from any one of these to another on multiple occasions without the fear of death.





I stand corrected. Not all religions are safe in a “Christian” society. It is possible and probable that a Muslim changing religions or giving up Islam would be injured or killed by another “more devout” Muslim.


----------



## Value Collector (19 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Using that logic, I could do anything I please because someone else did it hundreds of years before me.




Not at all what I was saying, I was simply pointing out society is free today, because we are secular, not because we are Christian, when the Christians were in 100% control, they acted a lot like the Muslim governments you fear.


SirRumpole said:


> So you have no problem with the authoritarian ideology, control by fear, diminution of women's rights, religious control over rights and freedoms, religious law ?




Where exactly did I say that.

I have said I support freedom of religion, please construct your straw man elsewhere.



dutchie said:


> I stand corrected. Not all religions are safe in a “Christian” society. It is possible and probable that a Muslim changing religions or giving up Islam would be injured or killed by another “more devout” Muslim.




There are Christian countries exisiting today that will jail you for being gay, so I think you are cherry picking out the countries you think are "good" and then labeling them as Christian, when in fact the freedoms you like are actually coming from the secular countries.

The more power you give to any religion, the more crazy you get.


----------



## Value Collector (19 February 2017)

Tink said:


>





Do you care if your religion is true? Or do you just want to people to believe it out of tradition?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Where exactly did I say that.
> 
> I have said I support freedom of religion, please construct your straw man elsewhere.




What a cop out.

I could construct a religion that says pedophilia is fine and encouraged (similar to Islam in that regard).and that would be OK ?

Any objectionable acts could hide behind a veneer of religion if that is the case.

The fact that you dodge around the issue of the sinister ideology that Muslims believe in means you actually agree with it or you can't justify your position.

Which is it ?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2017)

Perhaps in order to be regarded as a religion in this country, the governing body must agree to uphold all individual rights and freedoms of our citizens and make public rebuttals of all those parts of their beliefs that go against our accepted freedoms.

eg the law that Muslims can only marry Muslims would have to be publicly retracted, as would any references to arranged marriages, apostacy, genital mutilation and rights of women to divorce.

If the Australian Islamic Council don't agree to this, then they don't have the status of a religion in Australia, don't get government funding, don't get tax exemptions and don't get permission to build mosques.

Naturally, the same would apply to all religions.


----------



## luutzu (19 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> China invaded Tibet
> Russia invaded Ukraine
> North Korea is just plain barking mad and could launch missiles at South Korea any time
> Syria is the cause of the most bloody war in decades
> ...




I never said any state are saintly. Was merely repeating an international survey asking who they think is the world's greatest threat to peace.

China invaded Tibet in the 1950s, right? 

Russia didn't invade the Ukraine, the Ukraine was already its puppet. The CIA got involved, overthrow a Moscow-friendly president to install some sort of "democratic" president [ignoring that the president then was democratically elected].

Didn't Syria have elections?

The world would be very peaceful if one country were to invade and push around the other, the weaker one could just give up and die. Life seems not to work that way.

Anyway, who are "we" to decide what's "good" for other people's country? It's their country. Right? 

Watch this John Pilger documentary on the price the children of Iraq have to paid during sanctions under Bill Clinton.

WHO estimated half a million Iraqi children die from lack of nutrition and basic medicines from the sanction. More would die under Saddam?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Anyway, who are "we" to decide what's "good" for other people's country? It's their country. Right?




Err yes, but what if the country is run by a bloodthirsty dictator who tramples the people underfoot and does hold elections or if they are held are blatantly rigged ?

Western foreign policy hasn't been all that good in the past trying to get rid of rulers like that, but if we do nothing are the people of that country better off ?


----------



## luutzu (19 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What about Curtis Cheng, killed by a Muslim outside Parramatta police station, Lindt Cafe , Muslim man attacks policemen with knife. Off duty soldier beheaded by Muslims in Britain ?
> 
> Don't you watch the news ?





So everything bad that's being done by an Arab/Muslims, it's caused by being infected by Islam.

But everything that's bad being committed by the White/Christian, that's just one or two or a few crazies? 

Got it.


----------



## luutzu (19 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Err yes, but what if the country is run by a bloodthirsty dictator who tramples the people underfoot and does hold elections or if they are held are blatantly rigged ?
> 
> Western foreign policy hasn't been all that good in the past trying to get rid of rulers like that, but if we do nothing are the people of that country better off ?





Hell yea they'll be better off.

Have you seen Iraq lately? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? etc. etc.

How can you seriously believe that if China invades Tibet, that's China being imperialist. But if the US and its allies "liberate" Iraq, they really meant to free it.

You think the Chinese think they're invading Tibet? Read their press and talk to the comrades and they'll tell you they are merely reclaiming a kingdom that the Great Khan established and where China's Kublai Khan took into his Khanate when he was Emperor of China.

Ask the Nazi why they want to take over Europe? To be imperialistic or to bring peace and civilisation to Europeans who's long been at war with each other.


----------



## luutzu (19 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Err yes, but what if the country is run by a bloodthirsty dictator who tramples the people underfoot and does hold elections or if they are held are blatantly rigged ?
> 
> Western foreign policy hasn't been all that good in the past trying to get rid of rulers like that, but if we do nothing are the people of that country better off ?




Since when are Western democracies Democracy and its elections not rigged anyway? Because the people get to turn up to vote and the votes are properly counted? Are the people's hopes and dreams always answered soon after each election? Or the poor are always being screwed each and every year in every possible way imaginable.

Scanning through the headlines and it's pretty obvious the Aussie battlers are getting screwed again as their representative give "them" the choice of whether it's their kids education, health or grandma's allowances will have to go and which to be reduced.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> How can you seriously believe that if China invades Tibet, that's China being imperialist. But if the US and its allies "liberate" Iraq, they really meant to free it.




If it wasn't for the Yanks Britain would be a Nazi territory and Australia would be an Imperial Japanese territory.

I guess coming from a different culture you don't realise what went on in WW2. Maybe a bit of reading might help.



> Scanning through the headlines and it's pretty obvious the Aussie battlers are getting screwed again as their representative give "them" the choice of whether it's their kids education, health or grandma's allowances will have to go and which to be reduced.




So vote for someone else. That's one thing we have over the Chinese.


----------



## wayneL (19 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> So everything bad that's being done by an Arab/Muslims, it's caused by being infected by Islam.
> 
> But everything that's bad being committed by the White/Christian, that's just one or two or a few crazies?
> 
> Got it.



The accompanying chants of allahu akbar would seem to indicate so,  Grasshopper.


----------



## luutzu (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If it wasn't for the Yanks Britain would be a Nazi territory and Australia would be an Imperial Japanese territory.
> 
> I guess coming from a different culture you don't realise what went on in WW2. Maybe a bit of reading might help.
> 
> So vote for someone else. That's one thing we have over the Chinese.




You think the US came into WW2 to save the world?
It, like all imperial opportunist, came in to grab booties and colonies. And hence, what once belong to Britain belong to the US; what is of value to France, Spain, Germany... belongs to the US.

I do read history, lots of it.

Know how Britain, France was overstretched? Having way too many colonies and too many savages to civilised that when a serious challenge came up, one crumbled and the other almost certainly would have if it weren't for a lot of luck and a channel?

Well all those mistakes are taken up and expanded and keeping on expanding.

It'll end well then?

----

Yes, a tick in a few boxes will bring in politicians who'll start to care about plebs like me. Just because.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What a cop out.
> 
> I could construct a religion that says pedophilia is fine and encouraged (similar to Islam in that regard).and that would be OK ?
> 
> ...




Islam is no more sinister than the other abrahmic religions, I am not dodging anything, I am just saying let's give the 99.9999% of Muslims that don't commit violent acts the same respect that we give the other abrahamic religions.

If you believe peaceful Christians have a right to practice their faith, then you have to believe peaceful Muslims have the same right.





SirRumpole said:


> Perhaps in order to be regarded as a religion in this country, the governing body must agree to uphold all individual rights and freedoms of our citizens and make public rebuttals of all those parts of their beliefs that go against our accepted freedoms.
> 
> eg the law that Muslims can only marry Muslims would have to be publicly retracted, as would any references to arranged marriages, apostacy, genital mutilation and rights of women to divorce.
> 
> ...






Again you are acting like Islam is one religion with one set of beliefs, it's not, it's many different religions.




wayneL said:


> The accompanying chants of allahu akbar would seem to indicate so,  Grasshopper.




And some rioters in Cronulla chanting "Aussie Aussie Aussie, oi oi oi" are speaking for all Australians as the bash innocent brown folk.


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## luutzu (20 February 2017)

wayneL said:


> The accompanying chants of allahu akbar would seem to indicate so,  Grasshopper.




Does it matter to the victim what their murderers purported intentions and or who their commander are?

Just saw a John Pilger on the Killing of Cambodia...

Guess what war criminal ordered "kill everything that move on everything that fly"? Kissinger, following Nixon's order.

Guess what that does to the peasants? Then what murderous regime it led to? Yea, Pol Pot.

Guess what countries decided to still support Pol Pot as the gov't of Cambodia after VN send in the comrades?

The country that are getting in bed with Mao's China; China wanting the crazy Pot in control so they'll soon colonise Cambodia.

Guess what nobel and enlightened civilisation decided to not send aids to Cambodia because doing so will upset China, be in bed with VN. Know how many Cambodian children dies from that grudge?

We're a great democracy, it ain't going to remain that way if we repeat it often enough.

Might worth us learning the mistakes of trusting politicians that some people deserves to die and ignore all the nasty stuff we're doing because it's all good.

anyway...


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## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Islam is no more sinister than the other abrahmic religions,




Oh dear, you just don't look do you ?

Have you heard of the apostacy laws of Islam ? Try and leave the faith and you could be killed. It has happened. 

Did you read the article I posted by an ex Muslim ? One of his own brothers threatens his life regularly and you say that is not sinister ? 

A Saudi Arabian princess was beheaded for wanting to marry a non Muslim. Not sinister ?

Charlie Hebdo criticised Islam and look what happened. Not sinister ?

Women are stoned to death for adultery in Islam. Not sinister ? 

If Muslim women are raped , they get punished.

No religion should be allowed to reduce individual rights like Islam does. It doesn't belong here.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh dear, you just don't look do you ?
> 
> Have you heard of the apostacy laws of Islam ? Try and leave the faith and you could be killed. It has happened.





The Bible also instructs you to kill apostates, and the Catholic Church for example has Killed many thousands of people for apostasy over the years.

Now the next words you type will be something like "But the don't do it today", and it's true "Most" christians religions don't practice that today, But guess what, most Muslims don't practice that either.
-----------------

I think you are really struggling to understand that Islam is not one thing, there are many different Islami based religions, and they believe different things.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The Bible also instructs you to kill apostates, and the Catholic Church for example has Killed many thousands of people for apostasy over the years.
> 
> Now the next words you type will be something like "But the don't do it today", and it's true "Most" christians religions don't practice that today, But guess what, most Muslims don't practice that either.
> -----------------
> ...





In that case you would have no objection to the suggestion I made in a previous post that in order to be regarded as a religion with the associated benefits, religions must be required to observe human rights like freedom to leave the religion, freedom to marry who they want without penalty, equal rights for women etc ?

If there are radical Muslim sects running around enforcing hard line Islam  then it's up to the "moderates" to publicly rebut the hard liners and make it clear what they actually believe and that their standards don't reduce the individual rights of their members.

Just because people call themselves a religion doesn't exempt them from the responsibility to observe the civil rights of their members.


----------



## Tink (20 February 2017)

How many did atheists murder in Communism.

Do you care if your religion is true?


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## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

Tink said:


> How many did atheists murder in Communism.




Tink, Communists murdered to grow communism, The communist leaders/parties acted more like religions, often involving leader worship (North Korea) and strict unquestionable doctrines, it had nothing to do with a simple unbelief in gods which is what atheism is.

No one has ever killed simply because the didn't believe in a god, people need a reason to take action.

However people have killed because they were convinced to take action by religion, or religion like doctrines such as communism.



Tink said:


> Do you care if your religion is true?




Absolutely,

But I am currently unconvinced any of them are true.

What about you? do you care if your religion is true?


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> In that case you would have no objection to the suggestion I made in a previous post that in order to be regarded as a religion with the associated benefits, religions must be required to observe human rights like freedom to leave the religion, freedom to marry who they want without penalty, equal rights for women etc ?




We already require religions to follow Australian law, the right to religious freedom does not extend to taking away other peoples rights.

So when I say I support religious freedom, that means anyone has the right to have or not have a religion, so religious freedom gives you the right to walk away.

So when Tink says she wants her religion in schools, that goes against freedom of religion. Religious freedom doesn't give you any rights over other people, she can make her own schools, but she can't force schools to take on her brand of silliness


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> We already require religions to follow Australian law, the right to religious freedom does not extend to taking away other peoples rights.
> 
> So when I say I support religious freedom, that means anyone has the right to have or not have a religion, so religious freedom gives you the right to walk away.




We may think that those rights are inherent , but it's a matter of what religions are actually teaching.

If the leaders of the Catholic, Jewish, Protestant and Muslim churches are not prepared to put their names to a comittment to uphold individual rights then they should not be regarded as religions with all the benefits that that entails.


----------



## Tink (20 February 2017)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist–Leninist_atheism

I have already told you, that our Christian heritage is not a religion.
Not interested in your PC rubbish and communist approach.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> We may think that those rights are inherent , but it's a matter of what religions are actually teaching.
> 
> If the leaders of the Catholic, Jewish, Protestant and Muslim churches are not prepared to put their names to a comittment to uphold individual rights then they should not be regarded as religions with all the benefits that that entails.




Which benefits are you talking about?

I would be happy for religion to not receive benefits to begin with.



Tink said:


> I have already told you, that our Christian heritage is not a religion.
> .




So you don't have a religion? I thought you said you were catholic?

I asked do you have a religion? and do you care if it's true? 

Pretty straight forward questions, not sure why you always dodge it.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Which benefits are you talking about?
> 
> I would be happy for religion to not receive benefits to begin with.




Tax exempt status, government assistance for religious schools to name a couple.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

Tink said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist–Leninist_atheism
> .




Your link is not describing atheism, which is just being unconvinced a god exists.

Your link is describing Marxist-leninist Athethism, which is a belief system involving all sorts of political doctrines and ideas that have nothing to do with simple atheism, and a whole lot to do with the first to words e.g. Marxist-leninist.

If a marxist killed some one, it wouldn't be because of atheism, it would be because of the baggage that came with the marxist label.

there is absolutely no way simply being unconvinced a god exists can lead some one to commit violence, they need some other belief to do that.

If you disagree, feel free to provide a specific example of a person that killed some one simply because the were not convinced a god existed.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Tax exempt status, government assistance for religious schools to name a couple.




They would say those benefits are not religious benefits, but are for all "non profit" organisations, e.g. secular organisations get the same benefits.

But, I have long said that the religions receive government funding for their schools, and the "non profit" claims should be examined, because some churches make a lot of money that never gets used for charity.


----------



## Ves (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> If a marxist killed some one, it wouldn't be because of atheism, it would be because of the baggage that came with the marxist label.



What baggage is that?


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

Ves said:


> What baggage is that?




All the rest of their political, social, economic views etc that inform their decisions and actions.

the point I am trying to make is, that simply being unconvinced a god exists can not by itself lead you to a decision that you need to attack some one. You would have to add a whole bunch of other opinions to that before the decision could be made, which means its not the atheism that lead to the decision, it was the other views.

However, believing that a certain god exists and certain religious texts are that gods word, can lead you to make a decision to hurt some one.

I also happy to say the belief in a god by itself with no other doctrines is probably almost as harmless as atheism, but when you ad a religion to that belief, then that baggage can cause bad effects.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I also happy to say the belief in a god by itself with no other doctrines is probably almost as harmless as atheism, but when you ad a religion to that belief, then that baggage can cause bad effects.




I'm happy to agree with that which is why I think religions should be required to moderate their bad effects or lose their protected status.


----------



## Ves (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> However, believing that a certain god exists and certain religious texts are that gods word, can lead you to make a decision to hurt some one.



What I find interesting about this line of thinking is that not everyone who is exposed to those same religious texts or holds those beliefs commits a murder. Actually very very few of them ever do.

So it appears that the texts or beliefs of themselves alone don't make a murder,  but there are other causes.   Which leaves open the _possibility _that the beliefs or texts have absolutely no impact.

I follow your line of thinking re Atheism and murder,  but it seems a little disingenuous to suggest something completely different when it comes to Religion or another ideology.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

Ves said:


> What I find interesting about this line of thinking is that not everyone who is exposed to those same religious texts or holds those beliefs is a murder.
> 
> .





Firstly not all Jews, Christians or Muslims even read the bad bits, so are unaware of them, or if they are aware they interpret them differently, or even if they believe them 100% they still might lack the guts to carry out an attack.

For example, A lot of Australians would agree with the counter leadership raids the Australian Army carried out over 10 years in Afghanistan, however very few would be brave enough to carry out the raid.



Ves said:


> Which leaves open the _possibility _that the beliefs or texts have absolutely no impact.





Beliefs inform actions, and if you believe that certain things are moral and the right thing to do, you will be able to carry acts of extreme violence, and feel very good about it.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

Ves said:


> I follow your line of thinking re Atheism and murder,  but it seems a little disingenuous to suggest something completely different when it comes to Religion or another ideology.




Religion is different to atheism because it has a whole range of teachings and doctrines that give people instructions, and it has a way of altering what a person perceives as moral behaviour.

not only that it has a whole punishment and reward system, threatening people with hell and rewarding them with heaven.


----------



## Ves (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Firstly not all Jews, Christians or Muslims even read the bad bits, so are unaware of them, or if they are aware they interpret them differently, or even if they believe them 100% they still might lack the guts to carry out an attack.



So basically you agree,  the beliefs or texts don't of themselves make a murderer,  but it has more to do the underlying person (how they interpret something or whether they want to or are able to perform an action etc).



> Beliefs inform actions, and if you believe that certain things are moral and the right thing to do, you will be able to carry acts of extreme violence, and feel very good about it.



But what informs beliefs? Why do certain people do things and others don't?

I think this a very interesting subject.  From the mid to late 19th century there was a lot of progress made in this area.   Prior to this point there was basically no recognition that some parts of the human mind were unconscious in nature  (ie. the processes occur without us being aware and we cannot reflect on them via introspection,   repressed trauma).

Lots of discussion on this in modern psychology and the field of psychoanalysis.

If you're interested in following this up further from a philosophical stand points then some more historical influences to look at are Nietzsche's work on the Genealogy of Morals,   Freud (and Lacan if you want more),  Marx's  false consciousness / alienation / commodity fetishism for starters.

There's absolutely heaps of this stuff in all different humanities fields that goes a lot further than "well this guy read a text and it told him to murder all non-believers so he did."


----------



## bellenuit (20 February 2017)

Ves said:


> So it appears that the texts or beliefs of themselves alone don't make a murder,  but there are other causes.   Which leaves open the _possibility _that the beliefs or texts have absolutely no impact.




I couldn't agree with that. Those Islamic extremists that have carried out atrocious murders and other acts of violence have justified their actions by quoting from the Quran and Hadith which explicitly urges them to do such acts. Those texts are the only truth as far as they are concerned and their followers are usually dissuaded or even forbidden from consuming any other information source other than that approved by their spiritual leaders.

The Muslims that ignore the violence in those texts typically have other moderating influences (their culture, access to a broad spectrum of literature etc.) that allow them to see the texts as a historical record rather than a prescription to be followed. However, a large percentage of moderates unfortunately (based on PEW research) have a tendency to support state sanctioned violence that follows Islamic teachings even if they themselves wouldn't carry out such acts (death to apostates and homosexuals for example)


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

Ves said:


> But what informs beliefs? Why do certain people do things and others don't?




Some people are just psychotic to start with, and then they read a certain bit of ideology and use it to justify or reinforce their pre existing beliefs.

I think that people who are radicalised to commit crimes should be treated as mentally ill and kept locked up until they can prove it's safe to let them out.


----------



## Ves (20 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> I couldn't agree with that. Those Islamic extremists that have carried out atrocious murders and other acts of violence have justified their actions by quoting from the Quran and Hadith which explicitly urges them to do such acts. Those texts are the only truth as far as they are concerned and their followers are usually dissuaded or even forbidden from consuming any other information source other than that approved by their spiritual leaders.




All of those things you mention are acts of themselves,  and separate from the underlying psychological causes.

Religion or ideology or whatever,  these kinds of people generally find a way to satisfy their deepest urges.

Take all of these things away and you've still got two cavemen hitting each other with clubs,  I'll guarantee.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Some people are just psychotic to start with, and then they read a certain bit of ideology and use it to justify or reinforce their pre existing beliefs.
> 
> I think that people who are radicalised to commit crimes should be treated as mentally ill and kept locked up until they can prove it's safe to let them out.




They don't have to be psychotic, you can convince rational, good honest people to go and commit acts of extreme violence if you can convince them it's the right thing to do.

Our defence forces rely on having a large number of honest men ready to carry out acts of extreme violence, they aren't psychopaths, they are just everyday Aussies, wanting to do good.

Now if you add a religion into the mix you can tap into this same desire to do good, but the religion can warp what is considered good. Killing unbelievers in the eyes of a religious extremist can be justified in the same way a SAS soldier justifies raiding a taliban leaders house and killing him and his body guards, or justified in the same way as the bombers that dropped the nuclear weapons on Japan.


----------



## bellenuit (20 February 2017)

Ves said:


> All of those things you mention are acts of themselves,  and separate from the underlying psychological causes.
> 
> Religion or ideology or whatever,  these kinds of people generally find a way to satisfy their deepest urges.
> 
> Take all of these things away and you've still got two cavemen hitting each other with clubs,  I'll guarantee.




But then we would expect to have similar levels of severe violent acts in secular societies which demonstrably isn't the case. There is a strong correlation between the rate of serious acts of violence and  religiosity. Countries with the lowest crime rates tend to be the most secular (Scandinavian countries etc.)


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> But then we would expect to have similar levels of severe violent acts in secular societies which demonstrably isn't the case. There is a strong correlation between the rate of serious acts of violence and  religiosity. Countries with the lowest crime rates tend to be the most secular (Scandinavian countries etc.)




A good reason to keep religion to a minimum.

However we still get people like Martyn Bryant, Julian Knight or Anders Breivik who don't seem motivated by religion, just an inferiority complex and they committed their crimes to get attention. Those sort are probably the most dangerous as it's harder to see them coming, and unfortunately there is little that can be done untill after the event.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

So Ves, are you saying you don't think religious teachings can alter what a person considers right and wrong?


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> But then we would expect to have similar levels of severe violent acts in secular societies which demonstrably isn't the case.




Mass shootings in the US ?


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Firstly not all Jews, Christians or Muslims even read the bad bits, so are unaware of them, or if they are aware they interpret them differently, or even if they believe them 100% they still might lack the guts to carry out an attack.





More like civilised people know theatre when they see it. Muslims don't know window dressing from the price tag.


----------



## bellenuit (20 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Mass shootings in the US ?




Although secular might refer to societies that do not have a state religion, I was using the term in relation to the religiosity of its people. As countries become more prosperous, religiosity drops. The US is an aberration with those who view themselves as having no religion still only a small but growing minority compared to Europe. China is also an exception but for different reasons. Religion is growing in China as it prospers, but it is coming from a base where religion was suppressed and not recognised. The growth will probably plateau once it is no longer openly restricted and then we will likely see a falling off like Europe.


----------



## luutzu (20 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> More like civilised people know theatre when they see it. Muslims don't know window dressing from the price tag.




Yes, obviously.

Muslims would pray five times a time, and during each and every of those times, they'd be thinking of whether they ought to beat their many wives first, or abuse their children second, or go write bad things about the way Christians and the West live their life... then go out to take on the US and its militaries.

Good thing those bases are in their backyards too. Save them from having to pretend to be refugees; or buy a ticket.


----------



## Ves (20 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So Ves, are you saying you don't think religious teachings can alter what a person considers right and wrong?



I'm sure we all think consciously that they can.  But if the unconscious part of our brain (the part that contains any repressed trauma,  mental complexes etc.) is significantly influencing the decision making process then it seems to me that we can be often unaware of the real reasons for our actions.  In this case I can consciously 'rationalise' a reason for doing something, when really my actions are being driven by something deep inside my mind.  Because of the past trauma the brain disguises this reason as something more pleasurable  (ie.  a glorious crusade to gain access to heaven),  when really they're just scared to death of doing the wrong thing because they were beaten by their father as a kid or something.


----------



## bellenuit (20 February 2017)

Ves said:


> when really my actions are being driven by something deep inside my mind.




Yes, such as brainwashing from early childhood. 

As Steve Weinberg, the Nobel laureate in Physics, eloquently put it: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yes, obviously.
> 
> Muslims would pray five times a time, and during each and every of those times, they'd be thinking of whether they ought to beat their many wives first, or abuse their children second, or go write bad things about the way Christians and the West live their life... then go out to take on the US and its militaries.
> 
> Good thing those bases are in their backyards too. Save them from having to pretend to be refugees; or buy a ticket.




Yes if they were good people they would embrace Christianity if they must have a deity overlording them.


----------



## luutzu (20 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, such as brainwashing from early childhood.
> 
> As Steve Weinberg, the Nobel laureate in Physics, eloquently put it: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”




It doesn't need religion. It first needs impunity. Then it needs dehumanisation of the potential victims.


----------



## luutzu (20 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Yes if they were good people they would embrace Christianity if they must have a deity overlording them.




For sure.

How many other religion could conquer entire continents and either send all them natives to meet their makers or keep them alive to be enslaved but will definitely extract all their resources. Then turn around and managed to convinced themselves that ehhh... we mean well, right? I mean, look at those savages. What can we do but what we've done.

I mean, even Genghis Khan couldn't make stuff like that up and delivery it with a straight face. He'd have to tell the natives he slaughtered that he's _their_ _god's _punishment for them being naughty. 

That's weak Temujin. Grow a pair and tells them that it's their fault _and _you're here to save them.


----------



## Value Collector (20 February 2017)

Ves said:


> I'm sure we all think consciously that they can.  But if the unconscious part of our brain (the part that contains any repressed trauma,  mental complexes etc.) is significantly influencing the decision making process then it seems to me that we can be often unaware of the real reasons for our actions.  In this case I can consciously 'rationalise' a reason for doing something, when really my actions are being driven by something deep inside my mind.  Because of the past trauma the brain disguises this reason as something more pleasurable  (ie.  a glorious crusade to gain access to heaven),  when really they're just scared to death of doing the wrong thing because they were beaten by their father as a kid or something.




Do you think all of the people involved in dropping the nukes on Japan were not just doing what they thought was right, but were instead acting because of some repressed trauma or mental complex? I mean lots a lot of people, eg designers, engineers, flight crews, chain of command who sign off on it etc

I would put it to you that when deciding to commit an act of extreme violence, there is not much difference in thought process between a guy deciding that the right thing to do is drop a nuclear bomb on Japan to end a war, and a guy deciding to do a suicide bomb in what he sees as a struggle between good and evil, it's just that the guy doing it for religious reasons has had his world view warped by religion, but it feels very real to him, they believe there is a real cause they are fighting for, but it's not real.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Do you think all of the people involved in dropping the nukes on Japan were not just doing what they thought was right, but were instead acting because of some repressed trauma or mental complex? I mean lots a lot of people, eg designers, engineers, flight crews, chain of command who sign off on it etc
> 
> I would put it to you that when deciding to commit an act of extreme violence, there is not much difference in thought process between a guy deciding that the right thing to do is drop a nuclear bomb on Japan to end a war, and a guy deciding to do a suicide bomb in what he sees as a struggle between good and evil, it's just that the guy doing it for religious reasons has had his world view warped by religion, but it feels very real to him, they believe there is a real cause they are fighting for, but it's not real.




 You are still using examples from a less sophisticated time to argue a modern theme. Stalling for that time and hoping Muslims will catchup nearly a millenium and half in the space of a generation isn't going to happen. 

It's their inability to mentally grasp advanced western concepts that makes them so rapacious. Akin to being the dumbest kid in the class but a vigorous leader of a slum gang.

When they do manage to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc they are paraded around like a monkees with lego blocks as being something special and given awards (grown up elephant stamps) for surprising us all at their special gifts.


----------



## Ves (21 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Do you think all of the people involved in dropping the nukes on Japan were not just doing what they thought was right, but were instead acting because of some repressed trauma or mental complex? I mean lots a lot of people, eg designers, engineers, flight crews, chain of command who sign off on it etc
> 
> I would put it to you that when deciding to commit an act of extreme violence, there is not much difference in thought process between a guy deciding that the right thing to do is drop a nuclear bomb on Japan to end a war, and a guy deciding to do a suicide bomb in what he sees as a struggle between good and evil, it's just that the guy doing it for religious reasons has had his world view warped by religion, but it feels very real to him, they believe there is a real cause they are fighting for, but it's not real.



It's more complicated than my posts of course.   It's not just trauma and mental complexes that are repressed in the unconscious it's also primitive 'animalistic' survival instincts (aggression in particular).

Morality (what someone says is good or evil) is a function of language (it's symbolic).  A human isn't born with knowledge of language,  but instead it is progressively exposed to cultural norms,  morality,  and inherits the desires, cultural norms and idiosyncrasies of its own people as part of its developmental stages of life. 

I guess you could say there is an inherent tension between the learnt or symbolic knowledge and the 'animalistic' tendencies buried deep in the unconscious.

At the end of the day,  whether it be caused by some trauma or event,  some of us just can't keep those instincts buried.   Look at history,  there's generally always war scattered all through it.  Whether it's religious,  conquest, ideological or something else.


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2017)

Value Collector said:
			
		

> I would put it to you that when deciding to commit an act of extreme violence, there is not much difference in thought process between a guy deciding that the right thing to do is drop a nuclear bomb on Japan to end a war, and a guy deciding to do a suicide bomb in what he sees as a struggle between good and evil, it's just that the guy doing it for religious reasons has had his world view warped by religion, but it feels very real to him, they believe there is a real cause they are fighting for, but it's not real.




Personally I think dropping 2 atomic bombs on civilians was the wrong thing to do, but I can see that the people who made that decision based it on a rational thought process that it would save many more lives if it forced Japan to surrender.

The Allies had already been through a bloody invasion of Europe and wanted to avoid a repeat in Japan.

A terrorist though is irrational, because killing a few people is not going to change anything as far as global politics go. The West will simply use acts of terror to justify their current platitudes that terrorism must be wiped out. The terrorist cannot see that and therefore bases his actions simply on revenge or what the scriptures tell him. So therefore religion denies a rational thought process and appeals to the emotional belief of what is right or wrong.

Not that having emotions is wrong, it's part of the human makeup, but to completely exclude rational thought and let emotions reign is dangerous.


----------



## luutzu (21 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Personally I think dropping 2 atomic bombs on civilians was the wrong thing to do, but I can see that the people who made that decision based it on a rational thought process that it would save many more lives if it forced Japan to surrender.
> 
> The Allies had already been through a bloody invasion of Europe and wanted to avoid a repeat in Japan.
> 
> ...




That version of history is a lie to justify the nukes being dropped.

Japan only surrendered because Stalin and the godless Soviets marched East and was about to enter Japanese territories.

The warmongers in Tokyo thought it's better to deal with the Americans as that would keep their entire country in tact; wait til Uncle Joe comes in and Japan will be divvy up like Germany.

You think warmongers are afraid if a few of their cities got wiped out? Or hundreds of thousands of their people get killed? They've thought about those numbers, like all good gods of war does, and were completely willing to bear those sacrifices others will make.

Here's another story you don't hear about the US on Japan... know how Japan surrendered on some US carrier? Before that date and that hour of official surrender, some nice US airforce general thought to put together some 700 planes and send it over a couple of Japanese cities to unload. 

Why? The Japanese have yet to officially sign the surrender, so it's not at all a war crime.

That's rational or psychotic? Takes some brain to know the law and bend it to its limit like that.

----------------

What make you think all terrorist believe in Allah and does it because Allah somehow tells them to?

How did the Arabs fought war against the Romans before Islam? How did the Persians thought to invade the Greek states?


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> What make you think all terrorist believe in Allah and does it because Allah somehow tells them to?
> 
> How did the Arabs fought war against the Romans before Islam? How did the Persians thought to invade the Greek states?




Beats me, please enlighten me.


----------



## luutzu (21 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Beats me, please enlighten me.




If people want to steal your stuff, do they need a religion to tell them to steal it? 

If they are stealing your stuff, do you need a religion to get angry before you beat them up?
How about if they drop a few tonnes of bombs here, there, everywhere around you? They're the good guys and meant well to have come all that way into your land, so that's cool?

Yea man, what's wrong with Islam. 

Why not imagine what it'd be like as an Arab/Muslim living in the Middle East.

Or if you can't imagine that, imagine being a White secular Aussie living where you do and the Chinese decides to liberate Australia from its democracy and whatever.

Will you then wave at the Chinese jets and write them a telegram saying that it's all good; you've just read the People's Daily and want to thank them for coming all the way to free us Aussies from our Capitalism.


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> How about if they drop a few tonnes of bombs here, there, everywhere around you? They're the good guys and meant well to have come all that way into your land, so that's cool?




As has been pointed out before the West is assisting Muslim countries in the area to get rid of ISIS. 



> Saudi Arabia has formed an alliance of 34 Muslim nations to fight ISIS and tackle 'the Islamic world's problem with terrorism'.
> 
> The Saudi-led coalition, which will be based in Riyadh, includes powerful gulf states Egypt and Turkey but excludes Iran.
> 
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (21 February 2017)

Ves said:


> It's not just trauma and mental complexes that are repressed in the unconscious it's also primitive 'animalistic' survival instincts (aggression in particular).
> 
> .




Yes and tribalism etc, I do not doubt that, But religion makes things worse by creating false enemies, false causes.

It can convince you "the other tribe" is a threat when they aren't, it can create divisions meaning the "other tribe" can never be part of your tribe.

The terrorists that flew planes into the trade centres would have thought they were part of this big mission to end their enemies much like the flight crew of Enola Gay, but they weren't it was all in their head.





SirRumpole said:


> A terrorist though is irrational, because killing a few people is not going to change anything as far as global politics go. The West will simply use acts of terror to justify their current platitudes that terrorism must be wiped out. The terrorist cannot see that and therefore bases his actions simply on revenge or what the scriptures tell him. So therefore religion denies a rational thought process and appeals to the emotional belief of what is right or wrong.
> 
> Not that having emotions is wrong, it's part of the human makeup, but to completely exclude rational thought and let emotions reign is dangerous.




It only seems irrational to you because you are not looking at it with the same beliefs.

Logic only works when your assumptions and inputs are correct, offcourse if your assumptions are based religious concepts, things that seem irrational to others will be totally rational to you.

if you believe you can fly, its totally rational to jump of a building, and if you believe there is a god, and he wants you to kill the infidels and he will reward you with eternal bliss, its totally rational to do that.


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## Value Collector (21 February 2017)

I think Dawkins explains my point better in this short video.

Basically he believes that in certain cases the terrorists are not intrinsically bad, they are just otherwise decent people carrying out acts based on the logic derived from their religious beliefs.


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2017)

> if you believe you can fly, its totally rational to jump of a building, and if you believe there is a god, and he wants you to kill the infidels and he will reward you with eternal bliss, its totally rational to do that.




Do you agree that the above rationalisations are indicative of mental illness ?


----------



## luutzu (21 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As has been pointed out before the West is assisting Muslim countries in the area to get rid of ISIS.




Ohhhh... 

That clears it up then.

So it's not WMD and that mushroom cloud we were told?

It's not about getting rid of a dictator either, it's about liberating Iraq so it can be free and democratic. We're nice that way aren't we?

But no, not that either, it's about getting rid of ISIS.

ISIS weren't there when we came in, but we knew it was there so that's why we got in early. 

-----------

btw, ISIS is nasty. A group of murdering religious thugs who follow some old book believing it's the words of their God and will kill everyone who does not obey. Wanting to keep their race pure and their religion as God had promised.

Know what other country in the ME that's like that? Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Look who's their best ally and master? Look who gave them billions in military aids and sell them tens of billions in hardware.

But it's all to get rid of religious nutjobs right?


The Chin, the Han, the Romans, the Persians, the Turks, the Mongols, the Moguls... those guys just want to expand and take stuff. Not us though, we're all about giving people freedom and liberty, the world over. That's why some of us like Muslims so much we thought they should stay and die somewhere in their ME.

Anyway....


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## luutzu (21 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you agree that the above rationalisations are indicative of mental illness ?




On the same level as someone who look at the same death and destruction but think that whether it's good or bad depends on who did it. 

If "our" side does it, it's obviously is good. If "they" did it, obviously bad and religious based.


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## Value Collector (21 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you agree that the above rationalisations are indicative of mental illness ?



It can be, or it can just be religion if you have be taught from a young age that that is how the world works.

It's not mental illness that a child believes in Santa or the tooth fairy, they believe it because thats what they are told, and then they are convinced by phony evidence and logical fallacies , I put Jesus and Allah in the same category.

society is filled with people that believe all sorts of "Woo", because either they have been raised to believe it, or become convinced of it through logical fallacies some how.


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> society is filled with people that believe all sorts of "Woo", because either they have been raised to believe it, or become convinced of it through logical fallacies some how.




Sure, but if their false beliefs motivate them to commit violent acts then it becomes a matter of mental illness imo. 

It's a form that can't be cured by drugs, but some some of "readjustment" could work. It's up to the religious hierarchy not to infect people with hatred and it's up to secular society to make sure that happens.


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## Value Collector (21 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, but if their false beliefs motivate them to commit violent acts then it becomes a matter of mental illness imo.
> .





No, beliefs inform actions, simply having an incorrect belief is not mental illness.

There is no difference between a person who is inspired by religion to do something good like feed the homeless and someone who is inspired to do something bad like bomb an abortion clinic.

when dealing with religion you will get a range of results, you can't just say that the people doing the things you consider good are fine while the things you consider bad is caused by mental illness.

If you want religion in society you have to accept both outcomes, because as long as you are pushing faith and religious texts as good things, you will have a certain percentage take things literally and do bad things.


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> There is no difference between a person who is inspired by religion to do something good like feed the homeless and someone who is inspired to do something bad like bomb an abortion clinic.




No I don't agree with that. There is good and evil in religion and they can be separated by careful editing.


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## Value Collector (21 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No I don't agree with that. There is good and evil in religion and they can be separated by careful editing.




The tenants that you say are evil, and you say you can edit out, were written by people who thought they were good, and later complied and included in the book by people who also thought they were good. 

The religions can't even decide on whether drinking alcohol or eating pig is good or evil. 

Were the nuclear bombs in Japan good or evil, that's a very big debate, not even rational honest people can decide.


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## Value Collector (21 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No I don't agree with that. There is good and evil in religion and they can be separated by careful editing.



Try using your logic to decide which are the good bits when your belief is that the religious text is from a god and can't be wrong.

Check out this guy, there are plenty like him.


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## Tisme (21 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> For sure.
> 
> How many other religion could conquer entire continents and either send all them natives to meet their makers or keep them alive to be enslaved but will definitely extract all their resources. Then turn around and managed to convinced themselves that ehhh... we mean well, right? I mean, look at those savages. What can we do but what we've done.
> 
> ...



That's the spirit.


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## SirRumpole (21 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Try using your logic to decide which are the good bits when your belief is that the religious text is from a god and can't be wrong.
> 
> Check out this guy, there are plenty like him.





Yes, but I've also had contact with committed Christians who reject those parts of the Bible that don't fit with scientific facts and instead regard those parts as myths or assumptions made by people who had insufficient evidence at the time.

This guy seems to have a balanced view when it comes to science and the Bible.

https://theway21stcentury.wordpress...imate-change-that-all-christians-should-know/


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## luutzu (21 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The tenants that you say are evil, and you say you can edit out, were written by people who thought they were good, and later complied and included in the book by people who also thought they were good.
> 
> The religions can't even decide on whether drinking alcohol or eating pig is good or evil.
> 
> Were the nuclear bombs in Japan good or evil, that's a very big debate, not even rational honest people can decide.




I consider myself honest and rational, and I say it's freaking evil. 

But... but... No!

You don't go and literally nuke any place, particularly one with hundreds of thousands of civilians; do it twice; then find some justification.

I know the history and the context; I know what Imperial Japan did. Does our enemy's evils make our evil justifiable? That's emotion and bias talking if you think it's somewhat justifiable.

Even McNamara  confessed that for the things "we" have done, all senior command of the Allied will have been hung for war crimes if they lost the war. And that's no joke either.

----

It's more honest, and somewhat acceptable, to just admit that nuking two separate civilian cities, using two different type of bombs... it was an act of evil but it has to be done because we've spent billions on the dam thing and this is the perfect opportunity to see how it work and to also warn Joe Stalin to not screw around with us when we divvy up the world.

That and the world hate the Japs so who's the protest? Hippies? Lord freaking Bertrand Russell? And who's going to sue us? We own the world and can do as we please.

They don't put it that way, but that's how the rationale goes down. All else are public relations to justify mass murder.

----

Yes, I know. There are movies where the US troops were butchered as they hop from island to island... then when they got to, I think it was Okinawa, some US admiral saw the deaths of his troops, sigh, almost weep, and thought that this have to stop or else we'd have to go and kill every single one of the Japanese civilian _and _have our own troops killed too.

First, you don't have to fight street by street, island by island for Japan to surrender. Japan was finished at that point. Just let your own troops relaxed, stationed a few miles off and wait them out.

Uncle Joe was still on friendly terms and is sending his troops East to pick up colonies.

That and Japan was never a real threat to the US anyway, they weren't taken that seriously even at Pearl Harbour.

Remember that Japan strike Pearl Harbour first. But the US start sending its troops into Europe to contain Hitler before they really get round to tackling Japan.

So by the time the nukes were about to drop, Japan was totally decimated. No navy, no airforce, its seas were blockaded, nothing gets in or out without the US saying so.

So to say that we have to nuke them because they're never going to give up... that's misleading. I mean, it's not like Japan was Saddam and was about to send us a mushroom cloud so we have to nuke them first.


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## luutzu (21 February 2017)

Another fact to show that that nukes were just to sow terror and collect scientific data:

The second nuke was meant for another city, Yokohama from memory. It was too cloudy there so intead of turning back and wait for a clear day where they can justify hitting the military industrial centres, they were ordered to a nearby city and unload.


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## Value Collector (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, but I've also had contact with committed Christians who reject those parts of the Bible that don't fit with scientific facts and instead regard those parts as myths or assumptions made by people who had insufficient evidence at the time.
> 
> This guy seems to have a balanced view when it comes to science and the Bible.
> 
> https://theway21stcentury.wordpress...imate-change-that-all-christians-should-know/



That's exactly my point as to why you can't paint all religious people with the same brush.

You seem happy to accept that not all Christians are crazy fundamentalists that take the texts litererally, but you don't seem to want to give Muslims that same respect.

I have never claimed everyone that reads the texts will accept it as truth, just that are certain percentage will, hence why I say religion is silly.


----------



## Value Collector (22 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> I consider myself honest and rational, and I say it's freaking evil.
> 
> But... but... No!
> 
> ...




I don't think it is as simple as that.

The nuclear bombs ended the war almost instantly, without them it would have been a very drawn out process, that also killed thousands more innocent people, either way it was a **** sandwich, the allies chose to make Japan eat it.

Death and suffering etc were completely unavoidable at that stage, no matter what innocent people were going to get killed.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> That's exactly my point as to why you can't paint all religious people with the same brush.
> 
> You seem happy to accept that not all Christians are crazy fundamentalists that take the texts litererally, but you don't seem to want to give Muslims that same respect.
> 
> I have never claimed everyone that reads the texts will accept it as truth, just that are certain percentage will, hence why I say religion is silly.





Like their religion or not, Christianity is less subject to corruption than is Islam. The New Testament moderates the Old, there is no moderation in Islam. Muhammad became more violent as his religion caught on and the Islamists say that his later more violent writings represent the "true" Islam.

As I have said many times, but you fail to accept, Islam wants to be the government and have religious law be the law of the land. You can see this even in so called moderate Islamic countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. Islam is a creeping sickness and even parts of Britain want Sharia Law introduced as part of the law of the land. That will happen here if Islam is allowed to grow too large. The only way to stop it is to restrict the number of Muslim immigrants who are the carriers of the disease.

You look at individuals, I look at the bigger picture. Islam is like Nazism. It appeals to so called "downtrodden" people to rise up against their perceived foe. For the Nazis, the foe were the Jews and eventually everyone who was non Arayan. For Muslims the foe is now everyone who is non Muslim. They will work within the culture of the land while their numbers are small, but once they get big enough they will start demanding their own ways. You only need to look at how barbaric Islamic countries are to know what is in store for us if this disease takes over here.


----------



## dutchie (22 February 2017)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...mage-gallery/ee8a4ef1032a9da5a37c87ecb7f34c5c

Stupid Multiculturalism.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2017)

Copied from the Q&A thread (thanks Bellenuit)

Ex Muslim _Ayaan Hirsi Ali speaks on Sharia Law.
_
http://www.theahafoundation.org/author/ahafoundation/


----------



## luutzu (22 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I don't think it is as simple as that.
> 
> The nuclear bombs ended the war almost instantly, without them it would have been a very drawn out process, that also killed thousands more innocent people, either way it was a **** sandwich, the allies chose to make Japan eat it.
> 
> Death and suffering etc were completely unavoidable at that stage, no matter what innocent people were going to get killed.





As explained in the original post, the nukes were unnecessary. It was not the nuke that forces Japan to surrender, it was Stalin and the Soviets coming East.

Most of Japan's cities were pretty much completely destroyed from allied raids anyway. So dropping a couple of new sort of weapons to take out a city each isn't going to convince the warmongers in Tokyo that their people are dying so they better surrender.

They surrender because once Stalin start into the game, he'll want half of Japan just like he wanted half of Germany. Russia and Japan are still disputing a couple of small islands up North. If Stalin were given much more time, one or two major island will be Russians today.

Since the allied completely surrounds Japan, how will it survive or fight back anyway?

So all the noble, saving lives - both American and Japanese - the lesser of two evils... those are for domestic consumption dude.

And even if all of those noble intent were all true, we cannot use the same line of reasoning to justify war and nuclear holocaust.

Let's take Beijing or Moscow... would it be "reasonable" for either of them to drop a nuke or two on anyone else's country? Could they do it for moral reason like they wanted to take over that country but decided it's a lot more humane, relatively, that their troops don't like and "only" one city, or two or three, of their victims need to die. The rest of the country will be in tact.

That's not an acceptable reason is it?


----------



## luutzu (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Copied from the Q&A thread (thanks Bellenuit)
> 
> Ex Muslim _Ayaan Hirsi Ali speaks on Sharia Law.
> _
> http://www.theahafoundation.org/author/ahafoundation/





Yup. those who are critical of Islam and Muslims are 100% right.

The other Muslims who eloquently say that Islam isn't barbaric... hundreds of millions of them... na, they have no idea how evil their religion is.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yup. those who are critical of Islam and Muslims are 100% right.
> 
> The other Muslims who eloquently say that Islam isn't barbaric... hundreds of millions of them... na, they have no idea how evil their religion is.




They possibly have an idea how evil their religion is, they just don't want to admit it.

The Charlie Hebdo massacre was justified ?


----------



## luutzu (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Like their religion or not, Christianity is less subject to corruption than is Islam. The New Testament moderates the Old, there is no moderation in Islam. Muhammad became more violent as his religion caught on and the Islamists say that his later more violent writings represent the "true" Islam.
> 
> As I have said many times, but you fail to accept, Islam wants to be the government and have religious law be the law of the land. You can see this even in so called moderate Islamic countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. Islam is a creeping sickness and even parts of Britain want Sharia Law introduced as part of the law of the land. That will happen here if Islam is allowed to grow too large. The only way to stop it is to restrict the number of Muslim immigrants who are the carriers of the disease.
> 
> You look at individuals, I look at the bigger picture. Islam is like Nazism. It appeals to so called "downtrodden" people to rise up against their perceived foe. For the Nazis, the foe were the Jews and eventually everyone who was non Arayan. For Muslims the foe is now everyone who is non Muslim. They will work within the culture of the land while their numbers are small, but once they get big enough they will start demanding their own ways. You only need to look at how barbaric Islamic countries are to know what is in store for us if this disease takes over here.





Wow. Just wow!


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## dutchie (22 February 2017)

*Islam - the greatest threat to females in the world.* 

(And only a handful of females see it and call it out)


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## luutzu (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> They possibly have an idea how evil their religion is, they just don't want to admit it.
> 
> The Charlie Hebdo massacre was justified ?




Beside ISIS, how many Muslims do you know that justify that murder?

They all do, just don't want to admit it?

Get real man.


Weren't there an Islamic African French citizen one of the guy that help save the lives of a few Jewish shoppers when their Koser store was attacked? No, that guy isn't Muslim deep down? 


I just told you that at least 4 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq died from "our" wars on their land. And you justify that with bs like, we're there to help them fight ISIS.

ISIS weren't even around when we first went in.

There is no evidence that the Taliban, horrible as they are, were involved in 9/11. Beside Bush Jr's words, were there evidence? Weren't the majority of the attackers Saudis? 

Afghanistan, according to all international humanitarian organisations, was on the edge of starvation. Without some sort of foreign aid, mainly from Pakistan, the people starves and die. 

What did we, the noblest imperial power in the world do? We order Pakistan to stop its aids; order humanitarian workers out of the country, and we bomb the living crap out of Afghanistan just as winter is about to hit. 

But ey, it's for a good cause. 

We better stop being stupid because at least with the Muslims in those countries, they don't have access to objective information and are seeing with their own eyes the kindness of Christian jets and drones. You maybe they can be forgiven for not liking all Christians and Westerners so much.

What's our excuse? 

We're noble because our gov't says so? Because we obviously are so no matter what we do?

Seriously, 7 Muslim countries got their world torn upside down, by US.

There are tens of millions of refugees from those wars; the Arab states, ones that are much poorer and have nothing to do with causing these refugee crisis... they're the ones taking in most of the refugees.

That while we in the West tell the refugees to go fark themselves.

Then pat ourselves on the back at how noble we are; what great value we hold. How if only the stupid Muslims can learn to abandon their faith and become just like us.

What he heck is happening to this country?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> What he heck is happening to this country?




The international politics of Afghanistan is above my pay grade.

What I see in other countries is refugees pouring into European countries and trying to impose their ideologies on others. You can see it it Britain, France, Germany, Belgium and in Australia.

Muslims have their countries, we have ours. Just try expressing anti Islam rhetoric in Iran in the same way you are expressing your opinions here and see what happens to you.

Let Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran etc take in refugees. Iran has accepted not one Syrian refugee. How about having a go at them ?

The following table shows the number of refugees who were resettled in 2015 (assisted by UNHCR):

* Country of resettlement * * Number of persons resettled *
United States of America 52,583
Canada 10,236
*Australia* *5,211*
Norway 2,220
Germany 2,097
Sweden 1,808
United Kingdom 1,768
Finland 964
New Zealand 756
France 700
All others 3,550
*Grand total* *81,893*

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...s/rp/rp1617/RefugeeResettlement#_Toc461022112


The "all others" would obviously include all the Muslim countries in the world. Notice a lack of Muslim countries on that list ? A certain reluctance to help their brothers it would seem.


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## Tisme (22 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> What he heck is happening to this country?





Just the same wholesome Australian bigotry that made our country great. We've been doing it since 1886.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Just the same wholesome Australian bigotry that made our country great. We've been doing it since 1886.




The most successful multi cultural nation in the world according to the "Lefties".

But this is a warning of what we could become.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...s/news-story/88ad5f306ba062e07d564f52d7a1c551


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## luutzu (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The international politics of Afghanistan is above my pay grade.
> 
> What I see in other countries is refugees pouring into European countries and trying to impose their ideologies on others. You can see it it Britain, France, Germany, Belgium and in Australia.
> 
> ...




Iran took in about 2 million Iraqi and Afghani refugees.

Jordan took in about a couple million; So did Lebanon; So did Syria before it was broken up, by ISIS.

So the "all others" do not obviously include the Muslim world. 

Not counting Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan alone have some 6 million people displaced each. They move from one city to the next, just getting out of where the wars are at that moment. 

---

And I am not expressing "anti-Western" rhetoric. I'm expressing anti-imperialism rhetoric.

Where do you think I got my news from? Islamic States or the Arabs? I got them from the few honest Western journalists and Western human rights organisations. And they're mostly "White" people to boot too.

We, the people, in the West have fought and won a great deal of civil rights; have become a much more generous and progressive place. These great things are not going to remain if we start to buy the kind of bs that we're being fed by our own gov't. I mean, we're the greatest, kindness, most awesomest civilisation in the world... yet we put spikes on places where our homeless could shelter; we make park benches impossible to lay down on, and we destroy cities and people then pat ourselves on the back for our kindness.


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## luutzu (22 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Just the same wholesome Australian bigotry that made our country great. We've been doing it since 1886.




We got a whole lot nicer since the 1970s. But it's starting to go downhill a couple of decades after that and we're now accelerating.

Look at the headlines today in the US. Some 60 bomb threats against Jewish Synagogues; Jewish grave sites having their tombstones kick down.

It doesn't start and end with hatred and bigotry against Muslims and Mexicans.


----------



## noco (22 February 2017)

For what it is worth, here is a PM I had with the late Julia going back to 2007 explaining how I had been blocked twice for mentioning the the word  "infiltration" of the Western World by Muslims to gain world domination.

Two of my posts were deleted......But looking back, how correct I have been proven to what has happened in just 10 years......I could not have used a truer word than 'INFILTRATION". 


noco said:
Hello Julia, in reference to your request for examples of Muslims, I have tried to post a reply to you but the Moderator has deleted two of my posts for reasons of discrimination and the interpretation of the word 'infiltration'.

My message on the ASF was to explain to you that I had generalized on the past relevant to world domination. In that message I mentioned the word infiltration and his interpretation was different to mine. It still has not been resolved.
Hello Noco
Thanks for your message. I did in fact read one of your deleted posts before it was removed.

As GG says, freedom of speech has been thrown out the window.
I appreciate that you feel this way, but I think Joe has to be careful not to allow anything that appears to be inciting hate against any race/religion.
It's difficult for Joe. If he allows much in the way of anti-Muslim posts, he gets hate mail from the pro Muslim lobby, and of course vice versa.

As long as we're posting on a privately owned website, I think we have to respect the rules and opinions of the owner of the site, even though we don't always agree.

I don't think I can really make a valid opinion about the presence of Muslims in Australia in that I almost never see anyone in Muslim dress in Hervey Bay.
I might feel more uncomfortable in parts of the big cities.
But I'll never forget an instance several months ago when I was in the Woolworths carpark. A young Muslim woman, veiled but with her face showing, not a burka, was getting out of her car near me. As I looked at her, there was a pathetic cringing back into herself as though she had become accustomed to receiving unpleasant remarks or looks. I felt really sorry for her.

As white people you and I have never known how it feels to be discriminated against. It must be dreadful.

I - like most people - am deeply uncomfortable about radical Islam, the terrorists etc., but even then, we have to accept that had America not gone invading Muslim countries, they may well have confined their activities to their own kind. I don't know.

I wasn't able to watch your Utube video. My computer doesn't play Utube stuff properly.

Thanks for asking about Lucy. She's nearly nine months old now and still quite a handful in that she's hugely outgoing and friendly, wants to rush up to every dog she sees, so I'm constantly having to rein her in. That's largely typical puppy stuff, though, so when she's a bit older she will have a lovely temperament - happy, friendly and sociable.
She's doing well with her training, until she sees another dog!


We are going to be very very sick of the phrase "moving forward together" before this election campaign is over!

Cheers
Julia As my PM is just about full, I was about to delete from the bottom when I reread the above message from you back in July 2010.

My oh my.....how things have changed for the worse since then in respect to the Islamic movement.....but you must admit I have been right about the intentions of the Muslims about Islamic world domination.

The moderator has since let a lot through since then.


----------



## Value Collector (22 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> View attachment 70030
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...mage-gallery/ee8a4ef1032a9da5a37c87ecb7f34c5c
> 
> Stupid Multiculturalism.



Nice strawman, you might scare some of the crows.


----------



## Value Collector (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Like their religion or not, Christianity is less subject to corruption than is Islam. The New Testament moderates the Old, there is no moderation in Islam. Muhammad became more violent as his religion caught on and the Islamists say that his later more violent writings represent the "true" Islam.
> 
> As I have said many times, but you fail to accept, Islam wants to be the government and have religious law be the law of the land. You can see this even in so called moderate Islamic countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. Islam is a creeping sickness and even parts of Britain want Sharia Law introduced as part of the law of the land. That will happen here if Islam is allowed to grow too large. The only way to stop it is to restrict the number of Muslim immigrants who are the carriers of the disease.
> 
> You look at individuals, I look at the bigger picture. Islam is like Nazism. It appeals to so called "downtrodden" people to rise up against their perceived foe. For the Nazis, the foe were the Jews and eventually everyone who was non Arayan. For Muslims the foe is now everyone who is non Muslim. They will work within the culture of the land while their numbers are small, but once they get big enough they will start demanding their own ways. You only need to look at how barbaric Islamic countries are to know what is in store for us if this disease takes over here.




You keep acting like Islam is one thing, there has been moderation, because we have moderate muslims, a lot of muslims don't accept the violent teachings, they just ignore those parts, just like a lot of christians now ignore the parts that hate on gays.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You keep acting like Islam is one thing, there has been moderation, because we have moderate muslims, a lot of muslims don't accept the violent teachings, they just ignore those parts...




That's obviously good. However the hardliners see moderates as traitors to Islam and threaten violence against them, so the moderates are scared into becoming more hardline.

The moderates really are between a rock and a hard place and I genuinely feel sorry for them.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/isis-is-now-spewing-its-hatred-at-australian-muslim-leaders-2017-2


----------



## Value Collector (22 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> As explained in the original post, the nukes were unnecessary. It was not the nuke that forces Japan to surrender, it was Stalin and the Soviets coming East.





I don't accept that it was to impress/scare Stalin, I think 3 years of constant loss of American troops had taken its toll on the high command, it can't be easy making decisions that constantly see you lose thousands of your men.

The ability to end the war over night was an extremely appealing concept.



luutzu said:


> So dropping a couple of new sort of weapons to take out a city each isn't going to convince the warmongers in Tokyo that their people are dying so they better surrender.





Ummm, yes it did.



luutzu said:


> And even if all of those noble intent were all true, we cannot use the same line of reasoning to justify war and nuclear holocaust.
> 
> Let's take Beijing or Moscow... would it be "reasonable" for either of them to drop a nuke or two on anyone else's country? Could they do it for moral reason like they wanted to take over that country but decided it's a lot more humane, relatively, that their troops don't like and "only" one city, or two or three, of their victims need to die. The rest of the country will be in tact.
> 
> That's not an acceptable reason is it?




I think when the "Special Bombs" were first designed, the high command underestimated their power.

and I think today, we over estimate their power, the bombs dropped on Japan are no where near as powerful as those available today.


----------



## Value Collector (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That's obviously good. However the hardliners see moderates as traitors to Islam and threaten violence against them,




Hence why I say we should do our duty to protect those fleeing from hardline religion, provide a safe place where they can practice their moderate beliefs, see us as the good guys and over generations become more and more moderate, perhaps even atheist.

Treating the moderates badly, is far more likely to push them towards the hardliners, which is the plan of ISIS all along.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Hence why I say we should do our duty to protect those fleeing from hardline religion, provide a safe place where they can practice their moderate beliefs, see us as the good guys and over generations become more and more moderate, perhaps even atheist.




Pie in the sky. You don't dilute a religion by making it stronger. The greater the proportion of any group in society the more powerful they feel and the more likely they are to want to exert influence. The Jews have been doing the same thing for decades as has the Catholic church and Muslims are no different.



> Treating the moderates badly, is far more likely to push them towards the hardliners, which is the plan of ISIS all along.




I never suggested treating moderates badly. I said we should be nice to the ones already here, but that doesn't mean an open ended invitation to anyone calling themselves refugees. Terrorists have called themselves refugees and we have only found out later what they really are.


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## Value Collector (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Pie in the sky. You don't dilute a religion by making it stronger. The greater the proportion of any group in society the more powerful they feel and the more likely they are to want to exert influence. The Jews have been doing the same thing for decades as has the Catholic church and Muslims are no different.
> 
> 
> 
> I never suggested treating moderates badly. I said we should be nice to the ones already here, but that doesn't mean an open ended invitation to anyone calling themselves refugees. Terrorists have called themselves refugees and we have only found out later what they really are.




How is accepting refugees that are fleeing extremists making a religion stronger.

Banning the Burqa, Banning Halal, banning Mosques, threatening to reject refugees based on their religion, these are all things Australians are suggesting doing which a moderate would see as treating them badly.


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## luutzu (22 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I don't accept that it was to impress/scare Stalin, I think 3 years of constant loss of American troops had taken its toll on the high command, it can't be easy making decisions that constantly see you lose thousands of your men.
> 
> The ability to end the war over night was an extremely appealing concept.
> 
> ...




That's what we're told to believe.

It sounds nice and heroic that our noble military and civilian leadership take the hard and difficult road so that both their troops and innocent civilians of the enemy could survive - all except some 200,000 civilians who will have to be sacrificed because.... can't bring peace without wiping out a couple of cities right?


Trust me, I've heard this from at least two different sources. That it was not the nukes that convinces the Japs to surrender. It was Stalin and the Soviet entry into Japanese territories that force them to.

Here's some timeline, see if it's just a coincident:

On August 6, 1945, the U.S. Army Air Forces detonated a uranium gun-type fission bomb nicknamed "Little Boy" over the Japanese city of Hiroshima; three days later, on August 9, the U.S. Army Air Forces detonated a plutonium implosion-type fission bomb codenamed "Fat Man" over the Japanese city of Nagasaki.
-- WikiPedia

Imperial Japan surrender soon after the second bomb of August 9th, yes?


Here's when the Soviets officially fight Japan:
The *Soviet-Japanese War of 1945* .... began on August 9, 1945, with the Soviet invasion of the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo
-- Wikipedia

----------------------------

The Allied have pretty much destroy many, many, Japanese cities - killing the equivalent number of civilians in each one of them. So whether they do it with a nice clean nuke or a bunch of firebombs, it does not matter to Japan's high command.

Remember how Hitler would rather all of Berlin be razed to the ground, buying himself a few more days on Earth, rather than having it surrender and maybe kept some part of it unscathed... maybe spare a few German lives. 

They weren't the only crazies back then. So Japan's wouldn't give up because they're worried about a city or two being wiped out anyway.


When Stalin came knocking, they then see that in order to keep historic Japan intact - to one day fight back or whatever - it'd be better to surrender to one side rather than both.

To the victor go the spoils of war. You'd want only one victor rather than two and see your country split into two, potentially never being able to be put back together again.

That and I'm guessing that the Yanks promise to not hang the Emperor. We all know what the Soviet did to the Czars.

-----------

Anyway, I think that the only time when it could, maybe, be justified to use nuke is when you see the enemy has just fired their nuke and it's definitely coming towards your city.

To have already had your enemy in a noose and then decides you'd rather end it quickly with two load, killing every single thing in each of the city it's dropped on.

Practicality is not a moral defense against indiscriminate murder man.

And it's not a practical thing now either... not, as you say, when a modern thermal or hydrogen nuke can reduce most major cities to nothing.

I mean, we strike them, they strike back... nuclear winter and it's game over for the human species.


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## Value Collector (22 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> That's what we're told to believe.
> 
> It sounds nice and heroic that our noble military and civilian leadership take the hard and difficult road so that both their troops and innocent civilians of the enemy could survive - all except some 200,000 civilians who will have to be sacrificed because.... can't bring peace without wiping out a couple of cities right?
> 
> ...





It was estimated that between 250,000 and 500,000 more soldiers would die before the war ended, if you were an American soldier, and new the war could end in a week, what would you want?



luutzu said:


> Trust me, I've heard this from at least two different sources. That it was not the nukes that convinces the Japs to surrender. It was Stalin and the Soviet entry into Japanese territories that force them to.





So you think it was random chance that the Japanese held meetings to discuss Surrender within hours of the second bomb dropping?


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## luutzu (22 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It was estimated that between 250,000 and 500,000 more soldiers would die before the war ended, if you were an American soldier, and new the war could end in a week, what would you want?
> 
> 
> 
> So you think it was random chance that the Japanese held meetings to discuss Surrender within hours of the second bomb dropping?





Man, that's what propaganda is for. 

Think about it, why must any more American soldiers have to die after the Americans have reach Japan's homeland [say, Okinawa].

The only possible reason that they would have to die would be the US fighting Japan street by street, house by house. True?

Why would the US need to do that?

Japan is a series of islands. It was completely surrounded. No food, no supplies, no fuel, no ammunition, nothing goes in or out of Japan by this time.

I think it's safe to say that Japan has pretty much fallen.

You do not need to commit any more American troops to any more battle with Japan. Just wait and it'll collapse on itself.

But of course they can't tell you that. The world have to know that if the nukes were not drop, 250k or 500k American, plus Japanese, lives will have to be lost. So the lesser of two evil, right?


Can't be sure but I think the American Historian, Howard Zinn, said what I've been repeating from him saying. He was in the US airforce I think. European theatre. This was during his discussion of three American "Holy" wars - i.e. wars the yank would not even argue about how right and noble it was.

----------

The second bomb drop on the same day the Soviet attacked Manchuria right?

I think reason would suggest that the possible Soviet takeover play a major role, if not the only, in Imperial Japan's decision to finally call it quits.

Japan's cities have been bombarded all those months, to burn down a couple more isn't going to change its high command's mind. 

I mean, they haven't surrendered when dozens of their cities have been razed, why now? Because nuclear does a faster job?

It's more the case that a burnt city can be rebuilt; but a dead Royal family will end Japan's histories. That and having a united historic homeland could one day unified Japan's nationalism and reclaim its independence. To have it split will seriously weaken and destroy that possibility forever.


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## Value Collector (22 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Man, that's what propaganda is for.
> 
> Think about it, why must any more American soldiers have to die after the Americans have reach Japan's homeland [say, Okinawa].
> 
> ...




Ok so you think the Japanese surrender had nothing to do with a second Japanese city being destroyed by a nuclear weapon with the threat the third one would drop on Tokyo, but instead then surrendered because the Russians invaded a city thousands of kilometres away on e mainland?

I think you are streaching there.

I don't think you can say that Japan would have eventually surrendered in a bloodless victory, you are streaching there also.

I can't see the USA needing any further reason for them to decide to drop the nuke than not wanting to lose anymore troops than they already had in 3 years of fighting in Europe and the pacific.

When given the option to use this "special bomb" of course the high command would use it, I mean they had been attacking full force for so long already, adding some extra gasoline to the fire wouldn't have seemed to bad


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## SirRumpole (22 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I can't see the USA needing any further reason for them to decide to drop the nuke than not wanting to lose anymore troops than they already had in 3 years of fighting in Europe and the pacific.




Bombing civilians is a war crime isn't it ?


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## luutzu (22 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Ok so you think the Japanese surrender had nothing to do with a second Japanese city being destroyed by a nuclear weapon with the threat the third one would drop on Tokyo, but instead then surrendered because the Russians invaded a city thousands of kilometres away on e mainland?
> 
> I think you are streaching there.
> 
> ...




Remember that 200 to 500K death prevented you quoted?

How is that number anywhere near possible when the US lost 416,800 during the entirety of WW2?

Are they saying that if it weren't for the two nukes, the US would have doubled their losses to about 1Million military personnel?

Not possible. Not when Japan was being ringed in on all four seas; has no Navy or airforce.













Look at above map showing Japanese cities being firebombed and its est. percent damaged.

Minimum around 25%, all the way to to 85%.

I didn't even know Japan had that many cities... but now, imagine if you're one of the warlords in Tokyo... you've seen report of firebombs and statistics of destruction... would you just surrender the moment a second nuke dropped? Because you don't want any more damage to Japan's cities?

The entire country is pretty much grazed to the ground.


----

It's not so much that Stalin took Manchuria, and Mongolia and other Japanese colonies that shook the Japs. But it's having two powers vying for your mainland now that push them to surrender to one.

Keep the country unified and intact geographically. Have it divided and it'll be lost forever.

It's the same reason why Mao didn't listen to Stalin and settled for half of China but went all the way. It keeps the empire, whatever is left of it, in tact and be rebuilt one day.

Same reason why Ho Chi Minh didn't settled for just the North. I'm pretty sure the US would leave the North alone if he'd just stay there. But history aside, the South has more fertile land than the more barren North. And he risked the destruction of both to reunite it.


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## luutzu (22 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Bombing civilians is a war crime isn't it ?




It's not a war crime if the Allied does it. True story.

A sure-fire defence for the Nazi at Nuremberg was that if they can show evidence that what they're charged with were also carried out by the Allied, they can get off.

Heard that quite a few US senior officers were called up to testify whether they or the Allied did such and such... if so, it's not a war crime.

Hence, firebombing of civilian centres was never charged because the Allied did more of it.


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## luutzu (22 February 2017)




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## luutzu (22 February 2017)

War and Propaganda


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## noco (23 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's not a war crime if the Allied does it. True story.
> 
> A sure-fire defence for the Nazi at Nuremberg was that if they can show evidence that what they're charged with were also carried out by the Allied, they can get off.
> 
> ...




Who started the war in the Pacific?.....The  offenders got all they asked for in defense so how could it be a war crime?
The Japanese caused misery to millions of people.


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## Value Collector (23 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Remember that 200 to 500K death prevented you quoted?
> 
> How is that number anywhere near possible when the US lost 416,800 during the entirety of WW2?
> 
> ...




You have to include the amount of Japanese lives saved as well, the USA were not going to be the only side with people dying.

I mean do you think Japanese people were not already dying in the conventional bombing and the fire bombing? If that bombing campaign went for another 12 months how many would have died.

Also look at the death toll of the soviets, do you think the Japanese fighting to the death over 12 months would not have taken large losses in battle?

So you have to include all the Japanese that would have died in the continued conventional bombing campaign + those Japanese that would have died in continued sea and land battles + the Soviet, USA, Australian etc troops that would have died.

It would add up to a large number, who knows how long things would have dragged out, if any one is to blame for the deaths it's the Japanese for starting the war, and not surrendering sooner.


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## Value Collector (23 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Bombing civilians is a war crime isn't it ?




Yes and no, back then rules had a lot of grey area, basically you could bomb anything provided the destruction of the target would assist in the military defeat of the enemy, so as long as there was some military reason the target was chosen it was ok.

But, heroshima was an army depot town and Nagasaki was an industrial town, both would have been considered genuine targets.


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## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yes and no, back then rules had a lot of grey area, basically you could bomb anything provided the destruction of the target would assist in the military defeat of the enemy, so as long as there was some military reason the target was chosen it was ok.
> 
> But, heroshima was an army depot town and Nagasaki was an industrial town, both would have been considered genuine targets.




I think the same effect could have been achieved by dropping the bomb over a relatively uninhabited area. 

The destructive potential would have been obvious, and the Japanese would have surrendered because they had no defence against it and no way to retaliate.

Dropping the bomb on civilians was just  bloody mindedness imo.


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## Value Collector (23 February 2017)

The point of the bombing was to take out the army depot and the industrial area, it wasn't a mindless bombing of civilians.


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## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The point of the bombing was to take out the army depot and the industrial area, it wasn't a mindless bombing of civilians.




That was the excuse. The reason was to show Japan that the US had an indefensible weapon. It was not necessary to kill tens of thousands of civilians to do that.


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## Jorgensen (23 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the same effect could have been achieved by dropping the bomb over a relatively uninhabited area.
> 
> The destructive potential would have been obvious, and the Japanese would have surrendered because they had no defence against it and no way to retaliate.
> 
> Dropping the bomb on civilians was just  bloody mindedness imo.



As I understand it,the Russians were heading for Japan with a million strong army.They were ready to invade and would beat the the Americans to Japan.The US were not as prepared.The A bombs changed the time line.
Besides Japan would have rather surrendered to the US  than the Russians.The Russians had a blood debt to recover from Japan,after their defeat by the Japanese in the Russo-Japanese in the early 1900s.Not many Russian prisoners,if any, made it home after being captured.
Speilberg makes mention of the Russian army heading for Japan in the movie "Empire of the Sun"


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## noco (23 February 2017)

Bill Shorten is cuddling up to the Muslims by condemning Israel....He needs the votes of 500,000 Muslims here in Australia...what a traitor.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...e/news-story/d9196871d41f0d441004f1c40be11f6a


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## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> Bill Shorten is cuddling up to the Muslims by condemning Israel....He needs the votes of 500,000 Muslims here in Australia...what a traitor.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...e/news-story/d9196871d41f0d441004f1c40be11f6a




Traitor to who ? Israel-Palestine is none of our business.


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## Value Collector (23 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That was the excuse. The reason was to show Japan that the US had an indefensible weapon. It was not necessary to kill tens of thousands of civilians to do that.




So you don't think dropping the "special bomb" was just a natural extension of their already extensive bombing campaign?


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## noco (23 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Traitor to who ? Israel-Palestine is none of our business.




He is a traitor to the Australian people......Israel is very much our business....It is the only democracy in the ME and Shorten does not believe they should exist so he is favoring the rogue organization Hamas....Hamas want to destroy every Israeli......Hamas is an Islamic terrorist organization......So Shorten is virtually backing Hamas to gain the Muslim vote in Australia.
But it is quite funny in Western Australia, where the head Mufti is instructing Muslim to give their vote to the Greens and not Labor all because Hanson has done a deal with the Liberals.


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## SirRumpole (23 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So you don't think dropping the "special bomb" was just a natural extension of their already extensive bombing campaign?




I don't think that killing civilians was justified when there are other options.

Why do you ?


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You have to include the amount of Japanese lives saved as well, the USA were not going to be the only side with people dying.
> 
> I mean do you think Japanese people were not already dying in the conventional bombing and the fire bombing? If that bombing campaign went for another 12 months how many would have died.
> 
> ...




Come on man, not even the Japanese warlords care for their Japanese civilians. And as that map showing the firebombing and extensive damages illustrate, neither did the Allied care for Japanese civilians.

Is there a difference whether the civilians are killed with firebombs or got killed with a nuke?

So it's absurd to think that the Allied calculate how two nukes, killing over 200,000 civilians immediately, is better for the civilians they don't have to kill later. That's just warped logic.


And it's a false choice between either nukes or street fighting. 

The Allied does not need to destroy Japan city by city, well they were already doing that... but like I said, Japan is surrounded by sea and there's no canoe.

So Japan would starve, if they haven't already by that time... and will eventually fall onto itself.

Yes, it'll take time and I'm not saying that that's a nice way either. But it is a heck of a lot nicer than nuking them to speed up their surrender.

So if we accept all the rationale that's given as true, it still does not make sense as being the lesser of two evils. Heck, there are other lesser evils to do without losing any more American lives... like bombing raids over cities with no airforce and a few guns without any ammo.

---------

So there was never a need to send the troops into Japan's mainland anymore. That will have save any lives from street combat. Solved.

MacArthur might, though I doubt it, but he might copy Eisenhower in Europe and let the Soviets fight their way to Berlin. Sacrificing Soviet troops my tens of thousands for the honor of taking Berlin.

Though to be fair, his ego asides, MacArthur and US command might have learnt from Berlin that if the Soviets get to Tokyo, they'll also demand half the booties and grab whatever technologies and scientists they could too. And their master plan is to have Japan as a complete, unsinkable carrier for US confrontation of a future China [in case Generalissimo Chiang fail].

Anyway, there is a lot more to the nukes than the saving lives business.

Fact that it's the main, if not only, reason we're told tells you something. Fact that the Soviets play no role in possibly forcing Imperial Japan to surrender tells you the Cold War demand the Soviets to be useless, no-good, godless commies who played no part in getting rid of Hitler and Imperial Japan.

It's propaganda... a dangerous one at that.

Dangerous because it give us precedent that now and again, we got to nuke some folks... Like Obama says, we tortured some folks, ain't that normal?


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> He is a traitor to the Australian people......Israel is very much our business....It is the only democracy in the ME and Shorten does not believe they should exist so he is favoring the rogue organization Hamas....Hamas want to destroy every Israeli......Hamas is an Islamic terrorist organization......So Shorten is virtually backing Hamas to gain the Muslim vote in Australia.
> But it is quite funny in Western Australia, where the head Mufti is instructing Muslim to give their vote to the Greens and not Labor all because Hanson has done a deal with the Liberals.




Yea, most of the Israelis would love you there noco. Well... actually they won't because you're not a White Jew so they'll probably kick you out then steal your home [because according to some ancient Ottoman empire law, if people are not on their land for over 18 months, it mean they're not using it so it belong to the state ]

Nation of law and order, alright.

Want to know how far that law goes in taking "terrorist" land? So the Israelis take a certain area... then for safety and security, they have to clear a radius around the new settlement. Can't be too close to terrorist snakes right?

Then those "vacant" security land soon enough became land of the state of Israel. Then since they own it, what's a country to do but let its people live on it.

Then of course you'd need to clear more land around that new cleared land.

See how if you dress in a suit, have a well dressed and well groomed military, call yourself a democracy, and get to do shiet like that?


and oh yea... our Turnbull reckon it is unfair for a "one-sided" UN resolution condemning Israel land grab as illegal under International Law.

One sided in that it's the ENTIRE WORLD against one country.

Talk about turning common sense upside down to win favours and votes.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> Who started the war in the Pacific?.....The  offenders got all they asked for in defense so how could it be a war crime?
> The Japanese caused misery to millions of people.




It's a war crime because you're hitting civilian targets noco.

There's talks of the two nukes hitting military-industrial centres... I really don't believe that. I mean, Japan had been bombed with tonnes and tones of explosives prior to the nukes.

You'd think that all major military-industrial centres would have already been on those hit list. 

So while we all know the horrible things Imperial Japan did, hitting "industrial" cities that also wipe out 200,000 civilians in two hits... their crimes justifies our crimes?

I guess it does.


----------



## noco (23 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea, most of the Israelis would love you there noco. Well... actually they won't because you're not a White Jew so they'll probably kick you out then steal your home [because according to some ancient Ottoman empire law, if people are not on their land for over 18 months, it mean they're not using it so it belong to the state ]
> 
> Nation of law and order, alright.
> 
> ...




So you are anti Israeli and pro Hamas......Well I guess that is your opinion which you are entitled to...Hamas are a terrorist organization and even hate the President of Palestine.

You seem to have forgotten the 1976 six day war waged against Israel by Egypt and the adjoining Muslim states of Palestine......Mushi  Dyann was a very smart Israeli General and his intelligence operation was far to good for his Muslim invaders.......He humiliated them and in doing so took over the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza strip.

I say serves them right for attacking in the first place and it has stuck in the Palestinian's gizzet ever since.


----------



## Tisme (23 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Traitor to who ? Israel-Palestine is none of our business.




He's obviously going to support TULIP instead. One of the ALP's key planks is freedom of association and freedom of expression, etc. 

That organisation (TULIP) was setup because the half century of Labor and Union support of Zionism was discovered to be contrary to the two state scheme the socialists supported.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> So you are anti Israeli and pro Hamas......Well I guess that is your opinion which you are entitled to...Hamas are a terrorist organization and even hate the President of Palestine.
> 
> You seem to have forgotten the 1976 six day war waged against Israel by Egypt and the adjoining Muslim states of Palestine......Mushi  Dyann was a very smart Israeli General and his intelligence operation was far to good for his Muslim invaders.......He humiliated them and in doing so took over the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza strip.
> 
> I say serves them right for attacking in the first place and it has stuck in the Palestinian's gizzet ever since.




You read a very alternate version of history noco.

Israel weren't happy with what the UN gave them, still not satisfy with what they've further taken from Palestine. So they thought... the Arabs are weak and stupid, we're the noblest military in the world... so let's go and expand Israel the way God intended.

Hence, they took Sinai Penninsula and other areas that the Arabs somehow thought belong to them for some reason.

That's when the Arabs got together to fight back.

From memory, the Yank also got involved and told Israel to get the heck back away from Sinai. The yanks didn't want any French/British and Israeli controlling that penninsular because the Suez Canal is too valuable and they have already got their man in Egypt knowing how things works around the place.

Anyway, Israel is trying to sell to us Aussies their methods of securing us against the Muslims. You know that they know what they're doing when they've done it for decades and there's still a problem. 

That kind of experience any idiot can learn just by watching YouTube or read some history. But ey, who's going to make money if we all do readings instead of doing wars and buying drones?


----------



## Tisme (23 February 2017)

They must be on membership drive:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...t/news-story/529bdeb347e4682d5f75dfa82f1d8897


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> So you are anti Israeli and pro Hamas......Well I guess that is your opinion which you are entitled to...Hamas are a terrorist organization and even hate the President of Palestine.
> 
> You seem to have forgotten the 1976 six day war waged against Israel by Egypt and the adjoining Muslim states of Palestine......Mushi  Dyann was a very smart Israeli General and his intelligence operation was far to good for his Muslim invaders.......He humiliated them and in doing so took over the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza strip.
> 
> I say serves them right for attacking in the first place and it has stuck in the Palestinian's gizzet ever since.





Here's an older John Pilger doco on Palestine/Israel.


----------



## dutchie (23 February 2017)

Yassmin Abdel-Magied must think Islam is a 'feminist religion' because the woman get flowers and chocolates before they get beaten up.


Muslim leader Keysar Trad says angry husband can beat his wife as 'last resort'
Mr Trad said chocolates and flowers should be first option known as 'counselling'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4250826/Muslim-Keysar-Trad-lashed-3AW-Neil-Mitchell.html


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2017)

dutchie said:


> Yassmin Abdel-Magied must think Islam is a 'feminist religion' because the woman get flowers and chocolates before they get beaten up.
> 
> 
> Muslim leader Keysar Trad says angry husband can beat his wife as 'last resort'
> ...



From memory you could beat them with a stick (reed). So long as it was only so thick.


----------



## noco (23 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> You read a very alternate version of history noco.
> 
> Israel weren't happy with what the UN gave them, still not satisfy with what they've further taken from Palestine. So they thought... the Arabs are weak and stupid, we're the noblest military in the world... so let's go and expand Israel the way God intended.
> 
> ...




The UN is loaded with Green lefties......What else would you expect......The sooner the USA pulls out of the UN the better....There will a domino effect with some other Western countries as well.

So the question is, would you be happy live under Sharia law in Australia?


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> The UN is loaded with Green lefties......What else would you expect......The sooner the USA pulls out of the UN the better....There will a domino effect with some other Western countries as well.
> 
> So the question is, would you be happy live under Sharia law in Australia?




The UN is loaded with countries known as the whole world. Don't think anything green about it.

Why would I want to live under any religious law, Sharia or otherwise.

Some of the worst laws in Australia are based on its Christian heritage. Such as not permitting homosexuals to get married. wtf is that about beside wanting to please the Christians who thought God hate gays. Yup, of all the things God could hate being done in his name, on his planet, to his creations, being gay and being treated as equal citizens, that's a definite no no.

--------

Noco, the kind of country you, Pauline and Captain Abbott imagine Australia should be - thinking that such a country would be great for Australia and all Australians.

That country is Israel.

Go and see how Israel is doing; see how it is working out for its citizens - the White, Jewish ones.


----------



## noco (23 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> The UN is loaded with countries known as the whole world. Don't think anything green about it.
> 
> Why would I want to live under any religious law, Sharia or otherwise.
> 
> ...




I would say Israel is doing just fine according to the link below.

You say you would not like to live under Sharia law and yet you are always coming to the defence of Muslims and Islam.

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/israel


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> I would say Israel is doing just fine according to the link below.
> 
> You say you would not like to live under Sharia law and yet you are always coming to the defence of Muslims and Islam.
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/index/country/israel




I guess you haven't watch that doco then.

Yea sure it's a great country - if you're a White Jewish guy with connections and no sense of morality.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2017)

noco said:


> I would say Israel is doing just fine according to the link below.
> 
> You say you would not like to live under Sharia law and yet you are always coming to the defence of Muslims and Islam.
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/index/country/israel


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think that killing civilians was justified when there are other options.
> 
> Why do you ?




I am not sure what the other options were, but in that case your arrguement is not against dropping the Nuke, but rather against the American and British ww2 bombing campaigns in general, because fire bombing cities every night for months on end kills civilians to, and they were already doing that.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure what the other options were, but in that case your arrguement is not against dropping the Nuke, but rather against the American and British ww2 bombing campaigns in general, because fire bombing cities every night for months on end kills civilians to, and they were already doing that.




Perhaps you could read my previous posts where I suggested dropping the A bomb over an unpopulated area thus demonstrating its power and giving Japan the chance to surrender before it lost any more people.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Perhaps you could read my previous posts where I suggested dropping the A bomb over an unpopulated area thus demonstrating its power and giving Japan the chance to surrender before it lost any more people.




The US already had a huge industrial scale fire bombing and conventional bombing campaign running, their intent was to do damage to Japan, they were bombing all night every night, the A Bombs just sped up the damage they were already planning on inflicting.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The US already had a huge industrial scale fire bombing and conventional bombing campaign running, their intent was to do damage to Japan, they were bombing all night every night, the A Bombs just sped up the damage they were already planning on inflicting.




I thought you said you were a moral person, in fact you spent acres of posts going on about morality in regards to gay marriage and now you justify holocaust with the flick of a pen.

Amazing.


----------



## Tisme (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought you said you were a moral person, in fact you spent acres of posts going on about morality in regards to gay marriage and now you justify holocaust with the flick of a pen.
> 
> Amazing.




Dresden was up there and probably exceeded the kill count of Hiroshima.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought you said you were a moral person, in fact you spent acres of posts going on about morality in regards to gay marriage and now you justify holocaust with the flick of a pen.
> 
> Amazing.




I just recognise that there is a genuine moral dilemma here. In my opinion the nuclear weapons saved more lives than they took, make no mistake they are horrible, but they did end the war, so you have to balance the benefits against the cost.

The two cities that were destroyed by the nuke, would have been destroyed eventually anyway in the bombing campaign and people there would have died, along with continued deaths in other cities across Japan, plus soldiers, sailors and airmen of the Allies and Japan would continue.

So it's just a matter of choosing which crap outcome you want, and I think the nuke was less crap over all.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The two cities that were destroyed by the nuke, would have been destroyed eventually anyway in the bombing campaign and people there would have died,





There is no certainty of that if the A bomb was demonstrated over an unpopulated area, an option that was available and which you continuously ignore. Japan had no counter to the A bomb and would most likely have surrendered. If they didn't , then further A bomb drops could happen.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> Dresden was up there and probably exceeded the kill count of Hiroshima.




Yea, apparently firebombs, high explosives and fragmented weapons kill more or just as much on those cities.

I guess it's more efficient to just drop one load. 

----

Was listening to an old [2004?] interview with Noam Chomsky and David [sabanzon?]... 

In it Chomsky describe how McNamara's job during world war 2 weren't just as a "statistician" as his official bio summarised them. But he was up there in the planning division for the firebombs.

Using great maths skills, knowledge of each city, he decides where, on what day, the kind of wind direction etc.... decides where to hit so that it'll cause the most civilian death with the least effort.

i.e. hit where there's tight-knit timber houses during the night where the wind will take it uphill... something like that.  And of course since Japan ran out of air defenses by then, flight low so it's more accurate.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I just recognise that there is a genuine moral dilemma here. In my opinion the nuclear weapons saved more lives than they took, make no mistake they are horrible, but they did end the war, so you have to balance the benefits against the cost.
> 
> The two cities that were destroyed by the nuke, would have been destroyed eventually anyway in the bombing campaign and people there would have died, along with continued deaths in other cities across Japan, plus soldiers, sailors and airmen of the Allies and Japan would continue.
> 
> So it's just a matter of choosing which crap outcome you want, and I think the nuke was less crap over all.





That's what I thought too... I'm sure we all thought that because that's what we're told.

That's why I was so shocked when I heard Zinn and some other historian saying that that's not true. 

That the Soviet going East play a much bigger role than the nukes. That and considering other facts, there was never a real need to nuke any city.


I mean, the US cracked Japan's "codes" long before Pearl Harbour. Japan was not a serious challenge to the US military, not the kind that Hitler presented. And not at all when Europe was won and all eyes are on the Pacific with Japan having no navy or airforce left.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no certainty of that if the A bomb was demonstrated over an unpopulated area, an option that was available and which you continuously ignore. Japan had no counter to the A bomb and would most likely have surrendered. If they didn't , then further A bomb drops could happen.




the didn't even surrender after the first A bomb was dropped on a city, because they didn't believe the USA had a second one, and some people said it was a natural disaster, what makes you think the would surrender in you bombed the ocean, or some mountain range?


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> the didn't even surrender after the first A bomb was dropped on a city, because they didn't believe the USA had a second one, and some people said it was a natural disaster, what makes you think the would surrender in you bombed the ocean, or some mountain range?




The sight of a mushroom cloud rising over Mt Fuji would be fairly convincing.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> the didn't even surrender after the first A bomb was dropped on a city, because they didn't believe the USA had a second one, and some people said it was a natural disaster, what makes you think the would surrender in you bombed the ocean, or some mountain range?




Come on man, the Allied has literally grazed all the cities of Japan by at least half with conventional bombs.

Their mission on those raids was intended to kill the maximum number of civilians... McNamara kind of admitted that.

So to say that the US then thought to drop two nukes to stop them having to kill more civilians... that's really pushing reason and their pattern in the conduct of that war.

For one, you don't go and say that in order for me to stop having to kill more civilians, I'll drop a nuke on your city and will not stop until you surrender. That's warped logic.

I mean, it's not like the Allied were playing nice by destroying at least half of each and every city... now they're getting serious about saving lives.


It's pretty simple: the nukes were dropped to force a quick surrender. The quick surrender to the US means the Soviets cannot get to claim any more territories in the East. So that Japan will totally be the US's new colony.

So did the early surrender save more Japanese lives? Hard to tell since that's assuming that Japan surrendered because they fear the nukes destroying more of their already destroyed cities.

Maybe Japan would have surrendered just as quick the moment the Soviets took their colonies and are fast heading towards Tokyo. So maybe those civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki might not have to be sacrificed so that other cities won't have to be burnt more to the ground.


But let say that the nukes was the only reason Japan surrendered. The aim of the nukes was to force a surrender, not to save civilian or Allied military lives anyway.

That can easily be proven because they were dropped on civilian centres... or at least drop near enough that they know it'll kill most of the civilians nearby.

Second, it was not to save Allied soldiers lives because Japan was completely defenseless at the time. Japan couldn't even feed itself, have no allied, completely surrounded... so whatever casualties they might wreck on the allied would be minimal... at least not to the extend that 200,000 civilians need to bear the cost of that benefit analysis.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The sight of a mushroom cloud rising over Mt Fuji would be fairly convincing.




Why didn't they surrender after the first bomb then?


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Why didn't they surrender after the first bomb then?




The Soviets hasn't dropped by yet


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2017)

Were the Japanese Muslims ?

We seem to have gone off topic.


----------



## noco (25 February 2017)

Why has Bill Shorten changed his tune on Israeli.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...s/news-story/f74edb99cbd57670c66ca925c32894c9


----------



## dutchie (25 February 2017)

Number of feminists who whinged about Abbott looking at his watch ...... 10,000 (slight exaggeration)

Number of feminists who whinged about Keysar Trad domestic violence comment .................still searching for one

Seems as though Islam is off limits to the feminazi


----------



## Tisme (25 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> That's what I thought too... I'm sure we all thought that because that's what we're told.




http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-re...-was-not-to-end-the-war-or-save-lives/5308192


----------



## luutzu (25 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-re...-was-not-to-end-the-war-or-save-lives/5308192





Holy crab.


----------



## noco (25 February 2017)

Here is a letter to the editor written by a Canadian house wife.


_ Ticked-off  Housewife_ 
This is very good PLEASE read....

Thought you might like to read this letter 
to the editor. Ever notice how some people 
just seem to know how to write a letter? 


This one surely does! 


This was written by a Canadian woman, but oh how 
it also applies to the U.S.A., U.K. and Australia .


THIS ONE PACKS A FIRM PUNCH 
_
Written by a housewife in New Brunswick , to_ 
_her local newspaper. This is one ticked off lady... 


"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was_ 
_it or was it not, started by Islamic people who_ 
_brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001_ 
_and have continually threatened to do so since? 


Were people from all over the world, not brutally murdered_ 
_that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from_ 
_the capitol of the USA and in a field in Pennsylvania ? 


Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they? 

Do you think I care about four U. S. Marines urinating on some dead Taliban insurgents?_

_
And I'm supposed to care that a few Taliban were_ 
_claiming to be tortured by a justice system of a_ 
_nation they are fighting against in a brutal Insurgency.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle_ 
_East, start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief_ 
_of which, is a crime punishable by beheading in Afghanistan .. 


I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are_ 
_sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head, while Berg_ 
_screamed through his gurgling slashed throat. 


I'll care when the cowardly so-called insurgents_ 
_in Afghanistan , come out and fight like men,_ 
_instead of disrespecting their own religion by_ 
_hiding in Mosques and behind women and children. 


I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow_ 
_themselves up in search of Nirvana, care about the_ 
_innocent children within range of their suicide Bombs. 


I'll care when the Canadian media stops pretending that_ 
_their freedom of Speech on stories, is more important than_ 
_the lives of the soldiers on the ground or their families waiting_ 
_at home, to hear about them when something happens. 


In the meantime, when I hear a story about a_ 
_CANADIAN soldier roughing up an Insurgent_ 
_terrorist to obtain information, know this: 

I don't care. 

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the_ 
_head when he is told not to move because he_ 
_might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank: 


I don't care. Shoot him again.


When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed 'special' food, that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being 'mishandled,' you can absolutely believe, in your heart of hearts: 

I don't care. 


And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes_ 
_it's spelled 'Koran' and other times 'Quran.'_ 
_Well, Jimmy Crack Corn you guessed it. 


I don't care!! 


If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to_ 
_all your E-mail Friends.. Sooner or later, it'll get to_ 
_the people responsible for this ridiculous behaviour! 


If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete_ 
_button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't_ 
_complain when more atrocities committed by radical_ 
_Muslims happen here in our great Country! And may I add: 


Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering, if_ 
_during their life on earth, they made a difference in_ 
_the world. But, the Soldiers don't have that problem. 

I have another quote that I would like to_ 
_share AND...I hope you forward All this. 


One last thought for the day: 


Only five defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 


1. Jesus Christ 


2. The British Soldier. 


3. The Canadian Soldier. 


4. The US Soldier, and 


5. The Australian Soldier 


One died for your soul,_ 
_the other four, for you and your children's Freedom. 




YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON,_ 
_AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET! 

._


----------



## Tisme (25 February 2017)

noco said:


> Here is a letter to the editor written by a Canadian house wife.
> 
> 
> _ Ticked-off  Housewife_
> ...



That was written by a journalist named Douglas Patton


----------



## bellenuit (25 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> That was written by a journalist named Douglas Patton




Yes, my first reaction when seeing this was posted by Noco and it ending in "_YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON" _is that it was another chain letter and I too was able to ascertain in seconds that it was written by Douglas Patton.

It's not that I disagree with all the sentiments expressed, but at least in this new age of "fake news", some effort should be put into ascertaining the authenticity of what one posts.


----------



## noco (25 February 2017)

3







bellenuit said:


> Yes, my first reaction when seeing this was posted by Noco and it ending in "_YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON" _is that it was another chain letter and I too was able to ascertain in seconds that it was written by Douglas Patton.
> 
> It's not that I disagree with all the sentiments expressed, but at least in this new age of "fake news", some effort should be put into ascertaining the authenticity of what one posts.




There are 101 people named Douglas Patton.

Will the real Doug Patton please stand up.

The only one I could find associated with the Canadian Free Press died back in 2013.

Do you have a link to prove that quote was written by Doulas Patton or was he just the messenger?

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Douglas+Patton.&*

Is this the real Douglas Patton?

http://www.oakhinesfuneralhome.com/obituaries/DouglasPatton--39553/


----------



## bellenuit (25 February 2017)

noco said:


> 3
> 
> There are 101 people named Douglas Patton.
> 
> ...




Again after just 3 minutes of search. The real Douglas Patton's article from 2005 (has a few extra paragraphs at beginning).

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/361899_.html

_Doug Patton is a freelance columnist and political speechwriter who has worked for conservative candidates, elected officials and public policy organizations at the federal, state and local levels. His weekly column can be read in newspapers across the country and on selected Internet web sites. Readers can e-mail him at dpatton@neonramp.com._
_
_


----------



## bellenuit (25 February 2017)

When you get these types of articles, all you need do is copy all or most of the first sentence, put it in quotes and then search Google. 9 times out of 10 you will quickly find out if it is genuine.


----------



## noco (25 February 2017)

bellenuit said:


> When you get these types of articles, all you need do is copy all or most of the first sentence, put it in quotes and then search Google. 9 times out of 10 you will quickly find out if it is genuine.




Apparently there is an original text from the pissed off house wife in New Jersy written by her some years prior (2008) and has been changed a few times since then.

I found a link which refers to the original text but does not appear to work too well.......So Douglas Patton may well have rewritten the article based on the original text.
http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/dpa...dp_0606p.shtml

Maybe some one else may be able to throw some light on it.

Try this one.

http://www.gopusa.com/commentary

Origins:   Although the first example quoted above has come to be attributed to a Pam Foster who resides in Atlanta and the second to an unnamed British housewife, the article is actually the work of Doug Patton, a freelance columnist and political speechwriter who lives near Omaha, Nebraska. The first e-mail-circulated version left off his two opening paragraphs and added a closing “I don’t give a sheet either about those sheet heads!” statement that wasn’t in his original, but it is otherwise a faithful copy of his article, which was first published on the gopusa.com web site on 6 June 2005 under the title “Ask Me if I Care About ‘Mishandling’ of Koran” and which has since been reproduced on a number of other web sites.

Pamela Foster said this of how her name came to be associated with Doug Patton’s article:


----------



## noco (25 February 2017)

noco said:


> Apparently there is an original text from the pissed off house wife in New Jersy written by her some years prior (2008) and has been changed a few times since then.
> 
> I found a link which refers to the original text but does not appear to work too well.......So Douglas Patton may well have rewritten the article based on the original text.
> http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/dpa...dp_0606p.shtml
> ...




*Origins:*   Although the first example quoted above has come to be attributed to a Pam Foster who resides in Atlanta and the second to an unnamed British housewife, the article is actually the work of Doug Patton, a freelance columnist and political speechwriter who lives near Omaha, Nebraska. The first e-mail-circulated version left off his two opening paragraphs and added a closing “I don’t give a sheet either about those sheet heads!” statement that wasn’t in his original, but it is otherwise a faithful copy of his article, which was first published on the gopusa.com web site on 6 June 2005 under the title “Ask Me if I Care About ‘Mishandling’ of Koran” and which has since been reproduced on a number of other web sites.

Pamela Foster said this of how her name came to be associated with Doug Patton’s article:


----------



## luutzu (25 February 2017)

noco said:


> *Origins:*   Although the first example quoted above has come to be attributed to a Pam Foster who resides in Atlanta and the second to an unnamed British housewife, the article is actually the work of Doug Patton, a freelance columnist and political speechwriter who lives near Omaha, Nebraska. The first e-mail-circulated version left off his two opening paragraphs and added a closing “I don’t give a sheet either about those sheet heads!” statement that wasn’t in his original, but it is otherwise a faithful copy of his article, which was first published on the gopusa.com web site on 6 June 2005 under the title “Ask Me if I Care About ‘Mishandling’ of Koran” and which has since been reproduced on a number of other web sites.
> 
> Pamela Foster said this of how her name came to be associated with Doug Patton’s article:




But the important thing is that Islam is evil. Right? All you need is to find an authentic examples of bad Muslims doing bad things, brush it across all Muslims, and there we go, doing whatever we'd do to evil terrorists.


----------



## Tisme (26 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> But the important thing is that Islam is evil..




It appears to be the political correctness guidelines for savages.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> But the important thing is that Islam is evil.




There is a spectrum of course. Bringing in more brainwashed people does us no good, so why did a hole for ourselves ?

Most of the migrants we have accepted from Europe and Asia haven't been weighed down with religious baggage and so have assimilated reasonably well, but the ME ones seem to have trouble adapting to a secular society. That's not our problem in my view, they can go their way and we go ours.


----------



## luutzu (26 February 2017)

Tisme said:


> It appears to be the political correctness guidelines for savages.




A bit out of context there, isnt it McGee.


----------



## luutzu (26 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a spectrum of course. Bringing in more brainwashed people does us no good, so why did a hole for ourselves ?
> 
> Most of the migrants we have accepted from Europe and Asia haven't been weighed down with religious baggage and so have assimilated reasonably well, but the ME ones seem to have trouble adapting to a secular society. That's not our problem in my view, they can go their way and we go ours.




There's been a few waves of ME immigration right?

Were those that came over in the 50s or 60s not at all adapting? Or the 80s? 

I've hired a few contractors/builder... most are Arab/ME and they've adapted pretty well. Trying to get paid when the work is not done; telling you they'll fix the roof beam but you have to wait two weeks because they're flat out.

See, as good as your average Aussie tradies.


----------



## noco (26 February 2017)

I was watching an article on Sky News last night where it was mentioned Buddhists represents  2.5% of the population  and 2.2% of our population are Muslims in Australia.

We never hear of any problems with the Buddhists but plenty from a such a smaller minority of Muslims.

So doesn't that tell us something?

Why in the hell do we have to put up with crap about Muslims demonstrating in the streets demanding to introduce Sharia law and Halal certified food?

Why is our weak government allowing this  to happen....

I say to the government, any Muslim found demonstrating against our way of life should be immediately deported....... NO IFS...NO BUTS...Take a leaf out of Trump's book.


----------



## luutzu (26 February 2017)

noco said:


> I was watching an article on Sky News last night where it was mentioned Buddhists represents  2.5% of the population  and 2.2% of our population are Muslims in Australia.
> 
> We never hear of any problems with the Buddhists but plenty from a such a smaller minority of Muslims.
> 
> ...





Maybe because most Buddhist countries don't have oil that we'd need to liberate them. Maybe.

You know that Buddhist are vegans? If you think Halal is a pain the behind, try cooking a nice and affordable meal vegan style. 

But it is pretty amazing the many ways they can use bean curd and how many types of tofu though.


----------



## noco (26 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Maybe because most Buddhist countries don't have oil that we'd need to liberate them. Maybe.
> 
> You know that Buddhist are vegans? If you think Halal is a pain the behind, try cooking a nice and affordable meal vegan style.
> 
> But it is pretty amazing the many ways they can use bean curd and how many types of tofu though.




What has oil got to do with Muslims and Buddhists?

What has oil got to do with the Muslims one and only aim being  to destroy our way of life here in Australia and introduce Sharia law and create as much disturbance as possible upon law abiding citizens.

I practiced Yoga for 18 years and met some Buddhist Swamis at the Ashram in Kuranda on two occasions......Yes they are vegetarians but by hell they would run rings around the riff raff we now have in the Muslim community.......You could not wish to meet nicer people with high moral standards than a Buddhist.


----------



## luutzu (26 February 2017)

noco said:


> What has oil got to do with Muslims and Buddhists?
> 
> What has oil got to do with the Muslims one and only aim being  to destroy our way of life here in Australia and introduce Sharia law and create as much disturbance as possible upon law abiding citizens.
> 
> I practiced Yoga for 18 years and met some Buddhist Swamis at the Ashram in Kuranda on two occasions......Yes they are vegetarians but by hell they would run rings around the riff raff we now have in the Muslim community.......You could not wish to meet nicer people with high moral standards than a Buddhist.




Nothing. That's why beside Tibet and Myannmar, Buddhists are generally left alone.


Here's a simple test to see if Islam/Muslims are evil.

First, find something evil and vile and just nasty that at least 51% of all Muslim does *that no one else* have ever done.

So Muslims are evil because at least 51% of them follow some superstitious book about gods and demons. That's not going to prove that Islam is evil because practically all other religion have the same crazy stuff.

Or that all Muslims are terrorists... well no.

Or there are terrorists among Muslims. Are there no terrorists among other ethnic/religious groups?

It's evil because it want to take over the world! hmmmm... Christianity didn't? Hasn't? Not doing it?


It's a pretty simple but objective test. Let's do it so we can put this to rest and start picking on the gays or something.


----------



## luutzu (26 February 2017)

noco said:


> What has oil got to do with Muslims and Buddhists?
> 
> What has oil got to do with the Muslims one and only aim being  to destroy our way of life here in Australia and introduce Sharia law and create as much disturbance as possible upon law abiding citizens.
> 
> I practiced Yoga for 18 years and met some Buddhist Swamis at the Ashram in Kuranda on two occasions......Yes they are vegetarians but by hell they would run rings around the riff raff we now have in the Muslim community.......You could not wish to meet nicer people with high moral standards than a Buddhist.




You just ruin yoga for me noco.

All these time it's just some hot babe in tights stretching, now it's Mr Burns... ahhh...


----------



## noco (26 February 2017)

luutzu said:


> Nothing. That's why beside Tibet and Myannmar, Buddhists are generally left alone.
> 
> 
> Here's a simple test to see if Islam/Muslims are evil.
> ...




So why aren't the good Muslims demonstrating against the bad Muslim terrorists....You never hear a word like the "MODERATE" Muslims should be saying to  these radicals, hey cut out this nonsense as you are giving all Muslims a bad name.... Because they are all up to their neck in it......The terrorists are the Muslim army  just we have our ADF in Australia.......You know those men and women who bravely fought in WW1 and WW2 to maintain our freedom......Lest we forget.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 February 2017)

Any comment on this VC ?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-re...-was-not-to-end-the-war-or-save-lives/5308192


----------



## luutzu (26 February 2017)

noco said:


> So why aren't the good Muslims demonstrating against the bad Muslim terrorists....You never hear a word like the "MODERATE" Muslims should be saying to  these radicals, hey cut out this nonsense as you are giving all Muslims a bad name.... Because they are all up to their neck in it......The terrorists are the Muslim army  just we have our ADF in Australia.......You know those men and women who bravely fought in WW1 and WW2 to maintain our freedom......Lest we forget.




Noco, I don't think you need me to tell you that there are warmongers out there. Both on "their" side as well as on "our" side.

We ought to be more informed and critical of our own gov't so that no bs politician can willy nilly send our blood and treasure into wars to make some freaking political point and name for themselves.

Look into Hillary Clinton's push for the overthrow of Qaddafi in Libya.

Know what her political objective behind that? It's revealed in WikiLeaks that she and her political advisers want to show how Hillary was successful in regime change; how she can use Libya as an example of having the right kind of balls to take on the Muslims and do overthrow correctly.

That's the early stages after Qaddafi was killed. 

Then it didn't turn out so peaceful and easy. It led to the death of a US ambassador and other embassy staff when it was over-run... and of course, millions of Libyans homeless, who knows how many civilian deaths [because who's counting, right?].

What did Hillary do?

Opps... let's not put Libya on our campaign poster shall we.

----------

If you just read the news headlines, read the papers that simply repeat what the gov't tells them to repeat... you're going to be misinformed and so make wrong decisions. 

In a democracy, too many misinformed electorates does have some major policy implications.


----------



## luutzu (26 February 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Any comment on this VC ?
> 
> http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-re...-was-not-to-end-the-war-or-save-lives/5308192




I think he's trying to digest it. I know I did when I heard about it.

And what I heard were just a few minutes of some lecture. No quotes from the military brass being against it and such.

All these times I thought it's the military senior command that wanted it dropped, not the politicians. That's messed up.


----------



## dutchie (1 March 2017)

Another good reason to stop Islamic migration.

Australian-born 'Islamist' electrician, 42, 'had purchased materials to build a long-range missile' before he was arrested at his farmhouse near Young 'over ISIS terror plot'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...bought-materials-long-range-missile-ISIS.html


----------



## noco (1 March 2017)

Peta Credlin gives Nicholas Reece an ear full on the UN Human rights....Reece was Julia Gillard's adviser.
Out of 170 countries registered to refugees, Australia is one of 27 and the bloody UN Geneva convention has the gall to criticize  Australia.


----------



## noco (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Noco, I don't think you need me to tell you that there are warmongers out there. Both on "their" side as well as on "our" side.
> 
> We ought to be more informed and critical of our own gov't so that no bs politician can willy nilly send our blood and treasure into wars to make some freaking political point and name for themselves.
> 
> ...




I hope you are not adopting the bad habits of Tisme by diverting attention away from the real question which was :-

*So why aren't the good Muslims demonstrating against the bad Muslim terrorists....You never hear a word like the "MODERATE" Muslims should be saying to these radicals, hey cut out this nonsense as you are giving all Muslims a bad name.... Because they are all up to their neck in it......The terrorists are the Muslim army just we have our ADF in Australia.......You know those men and women who bravely fought in WW1 and WW2 to maintain our freedom......Lest we forget.*


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

noco said:


> I hope you are not adopting the bad habits of Tisme by diverting attention away from the real question which was :-
> 
> *So why aren't the good Muslims demonstrating against the bad Muslim terrorists....You never hear a word like the "MODERATE" Muslims should be saying to these radicals, hey cut out this nonsense as you are giving all Muslims a bad name.... Because they are all up to their neck in it......The terrorists are the Muslim army just we have our ADF in Australia.......You know those men and women who bravely fought in WW1 and WW2 to maintain our freedom......Lest we forget.*




You heard of Chris Hedges? A real journalist. Won the Pulitzer prize, I think; wrote numerous books; know a few languages; goes out there among the barbarians during wartime to report.. .things real journalists does.

There's an old 2005 [?] interview on youtube where he just answered your question in replying to whether or not the US's reaction to 9/11 was justified.

Hedges says that immediately after 9/11, the whole world was sympathetic to the American people. The Muslim world, with their highest Cleric came out and denounce that murderous act of terror; they denounced the terrorists as abusing their religion because that is not what Islam teaches. They denounce Osama bin Laden etc. etc.

They were on the side of the American people.

So there's Russia wanting to work with the US; even Assad calls the White House and pass on intel on terrorist groups they're following and offering help etc. etc.

What did the US do? The Bush admin use that act of terror to carry out its master plan - they use those American deaths, use the anger and fear, drum it louder and go to war. 

First they say that bin Laden is responsible so they demand the Taliban handing him over, or else!

Don't take this the wrong way, I don't like or condone the Taliban... but the Taliban, this according to Chomsky in his various lectures... The Taliban says we'll hand him over if you can provide us evidence that he did it. 

According to Chomsky, bin Laden deny any involvement. He said he had nothing to do with it. Which might be true since the US has been after in all these years - for his other various strikes against them in the ME. But here, bin Laden said he didn't plan or authorise it. He's been hiding in caves.

Which according to Chomsky, might be true as these terrorists work in what you'd call shared interests. That is, they are sympathetic to the aim - that aim is the destruction of America, or to cause enough harm that the US would withdraw from the ME. Whatever it is, that's their big aim and they share that.

Besides that, they work alone. Plan their own shiet and carry them out when the opportunity presents themselves.

But say that bin Laden is lying, the Taliban is lying and that they did plan and fund that murderous act of terror. So it's fair enough for the US, for any country, to strike back without needing to show the world any "proof". 

Does all those millions of Afghanistan deserve to be displaced and killed directly or indirectly through famine and crossfires? 

Let say that they all do. Serve them right for being victims to the Taliban.

What about the Iraqis? Saddam is a bastard, as bad as they come. 

We didn't go into Iraq because he was a bad dude right? If we were, we'd already done in in the first Gulf War. We went in, remember, because Saddam, we're told, funded bin Laden for 911. 

That's not true and was immediately dismissed. So we went in because the has WMD and the next thing we'd see as evidence is a mushroom cloud over some US/Western cities - we're told by Jr.

Turns out he didn't have WMD. Opps.

Well, we went in to liberate the Iraqi people. 

No, didn't do that either. 


back to the point.... after 911, most of the Muslim world publicly denounce bin Laden and terrorism. They were seeking to co-operate with the US. So you can't say that they're all terrorists and want to blow the West up because they hate our sex and alcohol, our values of freedom blah blah.

Anyway, 16 years, about 4 million Arab death, about 7 wars being waged directly or with the support of the West on Muslim countries, with a new US president putting blanket ban on Muslims from 7 countries because all of them are a terrorist threat to the US... 

Anyway, too much into the details...


If we want to test whether Islam is evil or not, simple find something that at least 51% of all Muslim do that no other country or religion or people have ever done. Something bad. Find one example of vileness that cannot be found among any other culture... that's how you prove it.

I bet you that you cannot find it.

so are human all evil or it depends on what side does it?


----------



## noco (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> You heard of Chris Hedges? A real journalist. Won the Pulitzer prize, I think; wrote numerous books; know a few languages; goes out there among the barbarians during wartime to report.. .things real journalists does.
> 
> There's an old 2005 [?] interview on youtube where he just answered your question in replying to whether or not the US's reaction to 9/11 was justified.
> 
> ...




Once again you verged away from question..........I not interested in 9/11, Bin Laden or 4 million Arab death...

I am talking about Muslims in Australia not taking action on the terrorist here in Australia.

Just more like Tisme tactics.....If you don't want to answer a straight question, please don't divert attention away.

So here is the question again for the 3rd time.

*So why aren't the good Muslims demonstrating against the bad Muslim terrorists....You never hear a word like the "MODERATE" Muslims should be saying to these radicals, hey cut out this nonsense as you are giving all Muslims a bad name.... Because they are all up to their neck in it......The terrorists are the Muslim army just we have our ADF in Australia.......You know those men and women who bravely fought in WW1 and WW2 to maintain our freedom......Lest we forget.*


----------



## luutzu (1 March 2017)

noco said:


> Once again you verged away from question..........I not interested in 9/11, Bin Laden or 4 million Arab death...
> 
> I am talking about Muslims in Australia not taking action on the terrorist here in Australia.
> 
> ...




When a true blue aussie do something criminal, do you and all other true blue aussies go out there and protests? Put on a show? Saying that they do not represent your true blueness? So what the hell?

That and have you read their local/ethnic papers? Maybe they do protests; maybe their callers in does condemn such crimes.

Staying silent is accomplice now? Apply that to any other crimes why don't we?

Maybe we ought to do what the Israeli does and what Trump wants to do... whenever there's a terrorist act, we knock down the terrorist' family's home; in Trump's wish, we should also take out their family. Cool?

Or do what China's First Emperor does when there's a terrorist trying to assassinate him - kill everything that moves within a ten mile radius.

And stop using the death and sacrifice of others to justify these racist, warmongering chest thumbing nonsense noco.

Good people have been lied into wars and countless have needlessly died for some idiots' ambitions.
And those that don't, they go to war to stop the kind of fascist, racist ideology that put one group of people to death camps for no other reason than some trumped up fearmongering about their race and vile religion.


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

noco said:


> So why aren't the good Muslims demonstrating against the bad Muslim terrorists....You never hear a word like the "MODERATE" Muslims should be saying to  these radicals, hey cut out this nonsense as you are giving all Muslims a bad name.... Because they are all up to their neck in it......The terrorists are the Muslim army  just we have our ADF in Australia.......You know those men and women who bravely fought in WW1 and WW2 to maintain our freedom......Lest we forget.



Same reason you don't see other Christian sects demonstrating against the Catholic Church, they don't consider them selves to be the same religion, do you think the mormans are responsible of what the pope does?

Again, you do realise that Muslims fought in ww2 amd ww1 don't you, and Muslims serve in the Australian army.


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Any comment on this VC ?
> 
> http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-re...-was-not-to-end-the-war-or-save-lives/5308192




It seems like a lot of hindsight and speculation on whether Japan would surrender or not, at the end of the day, the blame must fall on the emperor, his pride/cowardice seemed to be what caused the war to drag on.

Being a military man myself, I can see the urge to continue pushing the enemy until they surrender, some times if you pause you are just giving them time to reload, Japan is a very industrious nation, I would have wanted to keep them on the back foot as much as I could


----------



## noco (1 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Same reason you don't see other Christian sects demonstrating against the Catholic Church, they don't consider them selves to be the same religion, do you think the mormans are responsible of what the pope does?
> 
> Again, you do realise that Muslims fought in ww2 amd ww1 don't you, and Muslims serve in the Australian army.




So what.....things can change which they have for the worse.......Do you hear of other barbaric atrocities carried out by other religions? .....In case you gave forgotten this now 2017.......Not 1914/1918 or 1939/1945.
Do other religions behead Christians and infidels?
Do other religions carry out female genital mutilation?
Do other religions stone to death female adulterers in public?
Do other religions allow old Muslim men to marry girls 10 to 15?
Do other religions have terrorist which can kill hundreds of people at a time with car bombs or suicide bombers?
Do other religions send 2000 to 3000 rockets into Israel.


----------



## noco (1 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> When a true blue aussie do something criminal, do you and all other true blue aussies go out there and protests? Put on a show? Saying that they do not represent your true blueness? So what the hell?
> 
> That and have you read their local/ethnic papers? Maybe they do protests; maybe their callers in does condemn such crimes.
> 
> ...




Luu, they come under the criminal law in this country which I am sure nobody would deny......You do the crime, you pay the time....The only ones who would demonstrate against a Muslim going to jail are Muslims.

Once again I cannot get a straight answer from you after three attempts....You just keep diverting attention away from the subject..If you don't have a direct answer, then say so....Don't keep on pretending.


----------



## luutzu (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> So what.....things can change which they have for the worse.......Do you hear of other barbaric atrocities carried out by other religions? .....In case you gave forgotten this now 2017.......Not 1914/1918 or 1939/1045.
> Do other religions behead Christians and infidels?
> Do other religions carry out female genital mutilation?
> Do other religions stone to death female adulterers in public?
> ...




I just told you that some 4 million Iraqi and Afghani have been killed because of wars that "we" in the West got led into. That's a minor issue now is it? What religion or culture or value do we attribute that kind of mass murder to? Maybe just war and imperialism? Not even that! That's just us being nice and liberating their country. Righto.


How does the Palestinians have rockets to fire into Israel in the first place?
They're more like fire crackers noco.

Gaza and the West Bank are completely blockaded. Nothing gets in and out of those places without Israeli saying so. Not money, not people.

Even calories per person are checked by the Israeli. Not too much that they'd have enough energy, not too little that they'd starve and die off right away. You think I'm kidding right?

And don't the Israeli have those multi million dollar anti-missile defense system? 

The fourth largest, most power military in the world taking on an imprisoned concentration camp. And they call it "Protective Edge". Killing some 3,000 people, most of whom are civilians, half of whom are children. Laid to waste about half of all Gaza; blow up its only power plant and flour mill. That's war crimes noco.

And guess who follow the exact words of the Old Testament in establishing a Greater Israel? Zionists and Evangelical Christians!

The first saying that these are the land God promised to them, so it is theirs. The second says that yes, God promised those land, they ought to have it, once they have it the world will come to an end and they all die. 

Are we going to say that all Christians, Jews and White people are bad now? 'cuase I do admire a lot of Jewish intellectuals and know a fair number of good White people.

That's not to say there are crazies among "them".


----------



## luutzu (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> Luu, they come under the criminal law in this country which I am sure nobody would deny......You do the crime, you pay the time....The only ones who would demonstrate against a Muslim going to jail are Muslims.
> 
> Once again I cannot get a straight answer from you after three attempts....You just keep diverting attention away from the subject..If you don't have a direct answer, then say so....Don't keep on pretending.




I did give you a straight answer.

---------

I don't mean to be rude since I'm your junior, but honestly, these kind of talks is what will lead "us" into another war with a Muslim country.

This time it's going to be Iran. 

Maybe we don't care if more Muslims get slaughtered, but Iran is no walkover. 

It's the only Arab country, beside maybe Egypt, that the Israelis wanted to but can't take out. They've been pushing for the US to take Iran out for them since the first Gulf War. They've tried it with Bush Jr. and even he wasn't that stupid.

With Trump they might have found their idiot.

Yea, take out Iran and see if Russia and China won't step in to support them. See how much more billions and boots Australia will have to volunteer up for another freedom and liberation business.

So being racist and Islamophobic is no good because it's factually wrong; morally wrong... and in this time and age of expansion, it's the perfect mood to get people into shrugging at another war where maybe a million or two would be killed.

Maybe you don't like their lifestyle or their religion. It's their business.


----------



## noco (2 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> I did give you a straight answer.
> 
> ---------
> 
> ...






I can see I am just wasting my time with you.........I will ask you for the last time why don't the "GOOD MUSLIMS"  in Australia bring the Muslim terrorist into line? ......I don't want to hear about Egypt, the gulf war, Iran, Russia or Islamic phobia.

As I said before if you can't give a straight answer without beating  around the bush, then you stay silent.


----------



## noco (2 March 2017)

Islamic high hopes.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> As I said before if you can't give a straight answer without beating around the bush, then you stay silent.




You don't tell other people to stay silent and we won't tell you to stay silent.

What are you a facist ?

As to good Muslims v bad Muslims, how do you think the AFP has been able to foil impending attacks ? Inside information would be one method. And who would be giving that information ? Terrorist's family and friends most likely.

People are hardly likely to come out publicly and make themselves a target, and the AFP is not likely to scare off potential informants by revealing their identity or publicising the fact that a person's family dobbed them in.

You need to use some rational thinking noco, instead of the blunt instrument approach.


----------



## noco (2 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You don't tell other people to stay silent and we won't tell you to stay silent.
> 
> What are you a facist ?
> 
> ...




More Rumpy/tisme name calling...You are both past maters at it but you are wasting your time.

My posts have been directed to Luuzu and you have stick you dribbly nose in again.

The reason why the so called moderates or "GOOD" Muslims don't speak out is because of fear.....Fear that they be eliminated by the fanatics.

I will ask you the question, "Would you like to live under Sharia law and would you take in a Muslim refugee into you house?.......Feed him, cloth him and accommodate him"?


----------



## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> I will ask you the question, "Would you like to live under Sharia law and would you take in a Muslim refugee into you house?.......Feed him, cloth him and accommodate him"?




You only need to read my comments on this thread to find the answers to those questions.


----------



## noco (2 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You only need to read my comments on this thread to find the answers to those questions.




Please do tell me again.


----------



## Tisme (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> More Rumpy/tisme name calling...You are both past maters at it but you are wasting your time.
> 
> 
> yadda yadda yadda etc
> ...




Examples please and include you own directed at members?

Wasn't it you who posted for me to "shut the f#$k up" ?


----------



## SirRumpole (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> Please do tell me again.




Do your own research.


----------



## Tisme (2 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Do your own research.



tag:


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> Do other religions behead Christians and infidels?
> .




I am not sure about beheadings in particular, but yes other religions including some christian religions are killing people.



> Do other religions carry out female genital mutilation?




Jews Mutilate Male genitals, and they put the penis in their mouth and suck the blood off, thats just as crazy to me.








> Do other religions stone to death female adulterers in public?




That rule is actually from the bible.




> Do other religions send 2000 to 3000 rockets into Israel




I think the Jews send more rockets back the other way. You seem to only count the stuff the muslims are doing, Biased much?



> Do other religions have terrorist which can kill hundreds of people at a time with car bombs or suicide bombers?




Yes actually, But why are you only counting "Car bombs" if a helicopter fires a rocket is it some how better?


----------



## luutzu (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> I can see I am just wasting my time with you.........I will ask you for the last time why don't the "GOOD MUSLIMS"  in Australia bring the Muslim terrorist into line? ......I don't want to hear about Egypt, the gulf war, Iran, Russia or Islamic phobia.
> 
> As I said before if you can't give a straight answer without beating  around the bush, then you stay silent.




Maybe the good Muslims haven't bring the terrorists in line because they just don't know any terrorists, or potential terrorist.

That's not to say that there are no terrorist or would be terrorist among the Muslim Australian community. But are we all certain that there are no other crazies among other ethnic groups too? They're all good now?

Weren't there a Muslim professor, a female one at that, who teaches at university and head a programme to council and teach groups of, I'm guessing, Muslim kids who would be vulnerable to being used by terrorist. That's at least one example right?

--------

As to the other places in the world. That's to provide context and evidence Noco. 

Like that Chris Hedges example... that most of the Arab world was shocked and horrified at 9/11. They denounced the terrorists and want to work with the Americans to help stop that kind of murder. 

That doesn't count? Them Muslims all hate the West and its value?

Alright, bring on Iran. 

The new $US55B increase in defense budget will come in handy.

Did you know that the US, last year, spent about $US900 billion on its security and defense?

There's the $500B+ for the Pentagon; there's other weapons lab etc. through the Energy Dept.; there's Homeland Security.

Keep spending what will now be about $1 Trillion a year on "defense" and see how long they'd last. 
Not too long given that half the country is poor, one in five of the top 500 do not pay any taxes, the rich getting richer while the poor works a couple of jobs each to just make it.

Anyway.


----------



## luutzu (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure about beheadings in particular, but yes other religions including some christian religions are killing people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





They actually suck the blood off like that? fark. I thought it's just snip and a bandage. Thta's nuts.


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> They actually suck the blood off like that? fark. I thought it's just snip and a bandage. Thta's nuts.




The Super religious Rabbi's carry out the ritual as the texts say, which involves sucking off the blood.

But, not all jews do it like that, just like not all muslims take their texts seriously.


----------



## wayneL (2 March 2017)

Notwithstanding any of the above arguments, I do find it curious that Islam seems to be the only religion defended by the left,  even though sections of Islam are clearly the most misogynistic.

Why is that?


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> Notwithstanding any of the above arguments, I do find it curious that Islam seems to be the only religion defended by the left,  even though sections of Islam are clearly the most misogynistic.
> 
> Why is that?




You have made a common mistake there wayne.

You think standing up for innocent muslims humans rights is some how defending islam, its not. it's defending innocent muslims from unfair persecution.

I am against people demonising the everyday muslim, and wanting to treat them as second class people, that doesn't help the situation, it's divisive.

Nothing I have ever said here should be seen as me defending Islam.

I will defend peoples freedom of religion though, and that doesn't mean I don't want people to become less religious, I hate religion just as much as any one, but we need people to decide their religion is silly themselves, we just can't mistreat them other wise they will never leave it.


----------



## Tisme (2 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> Notwithstanding any of the above arguments, I do find it curious that Islam seems to be the only religion defended by the left,  even though sections of Islam are clearly the most misogynistic.
> 
> Why is that?




If you watched Peter Dutton in parliament yesterday you'd wonder if someone was holding his family hostage.


----------



## luutzu (2 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> If you watched Peter Dutton in parliament yesterday you'd wonder if someone was holding his family hostage.




hot a video?


----------



## noco (2 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Do your own research.




Well that explains you to a tee.......I  put you over a barrel, so the easy way out is, "DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH"....You obviously just do not have the answers.

With my regard to Luuzu about staying silent has been misinterpreted by and you have twisted things around.........What I am saying is, if he does not have the answer to my question, of which he like you and Tisme, use the tactic of diversion, then should not say anything at all......I was not asking him to remain silent......Do you read me now or doesn't it sink in to your one track mind?


----------



## luutzu (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> Well that explains you to a tee.......I  put you over a barrel, so the easy way out is, "DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH"....You obviously just do not have the answers.
> 
> With my regard to Luuzu about staying silent has been misinterpreted by and you have twisted things around.........What I am saying is, if he does not have the answer to my question, of which he like you and Tisme, use the tactic of diversion, then should not say anything at all......I was not asking him to remain silent......Do you read me now or doesn't it sink in to your one track mind?




So your question, which you think is a tough one because you think I somehow avoids it... it is why aren't the "moderate" and "good" Muslims out there go all Batman on terrorists.

Since they don't take on the bad guys, they must be agreeing to terrorism. That or the terrorists would kill them if they call the authority on them.

One, yea. If terrorists know you're the one calling a strike on them, they tend to not play nice with you and your family. They're terrorist, they do bad stuff on people.

Two, are terrorists so widespread among the Muslim community that every Muslim must have known one. Since "none" of them are setting those terrorist straight, they must all be colluding. 

Man, maybe the normal Muslims just don't know any terrorists. That and it's the jobs of intelligence and security agencies to know and catch the terrorists.

I mean, we can't even blame the Church and its Bishops for paedophilial priests. And there's plenty of evidence the higher up in the Church know and cover that crimes up... can't blame them but we somehow should blame ordinary Muslims because they're not working hard enough to uncover terrorists among them.

Alrighty then.


----------



## Tisme (2 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> hot a video?





No but it was question time yesterday maybe ABC?


----------



## Tisme (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> Well that explains you to a tee.......I  put you over a barrel, so the easy way out is, "DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH"....You obviously just do not have the answers.
> 
> With my regard to Luuzu about staying silent has been misinterpreted by and you have twisted things around.........What I am saying is, if he does not have the answer to my question, of which he like you and Tisme, use the tactic of diversion, then should not say anything at all......I was not asking him to remain silent......Do you read me now or doesn't it sink in to your one track mind?





Wot??? Google translator?

Why am I get pulled into an argument between you and luutzu? I'm a good guy.


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> *So why aren't the good Muslims demonstrating against the bad Muslim terrorists....You never hear a word like the "MODERATE" Muslims should be saying to these radicals, hey cut out this nonsense as you are giving all Muslims a bad name.....*




Do you even fact check to see if your claims are true.

It took me 1 min to find a video of muslims protesting isis


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

Muslims are also fighting ISIS, not just protesting.


----------



## noco (2 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Do you even fact check to see if your claims are true.
> 
> It took me 1 min to find a video of muslims protesting isis





What about Australia?...Are they protesting here?


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2017)

noco said:


> What about Australia?...Are they protesting here?




Seriously mate, rather than type the question into a thread post, why not try typing it into google.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...in-notinmyname-movement-against-islamic-state


----------



## Boxerdidy (3 March 2017)

Mate when its all said and done. Its just like the Gun crap as well. Guns dont kill people people kill people. Islam does not make people evil either. The reality of the question is akin to the world we live in.


----------



## luutzu (3 March 2017)

Interesting Doco... 

How presidents and the media lied people into war.

Remember history when Trump take the US into Tehran.


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Seriously mate, rather than type the question into a thread post, why not try typing it into google.
> 
> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...in-notinmyname-movement-against-islamic-state




You obviously do not know so you cannot give an answer.


----------



## bellenuit (3 March 2017)

Boxerdidy said:


> Islam does not make people evil either.




It's the one common denominator that drives some of the most evil humans in existence today. ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah.... 

“_With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion._” 
― Steven Weinberg (Nobel Laureate in Physics)


----------



## luutzu (3 March 2017)

bellenuit said:


> It's the one common denominator that drives some of the most evil humans in existence today. ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah....
> 
> “_With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion._”
> ― Steven Weinberg (Nobel Laureate in Physics)




Some people might call your examples of evil there a bit selective and biased. Mainly directed towards Islamic terrorists and African, no doubt also Islamic, to mix it up a bit.

The West are not capable of evil? No? Never?

Yea, I guess the Americans went to war with each other to free the slaves. The slaves somehow got brought there, and the (White) Americans decided to free them. Yup.

The natives and indigenous of the Americas, Caribbeans... they just decided to disappear to make way for civilisation. Genocide there didn't happen? Of course not.

Or colonisation of Africa, still going on today. Only the Chinese are doing it? How about colonisation in Asia/Pacific? Only Imperial Japan did it?

It's not religion that cause good people to do evil; it's people's beliefs in their own ethnic superiority, as told to them by their leaders, that causes people to do evil.

Once you believe that "we" are good and civilised; believe that "they" are vile savages, believe in it like a religion, believe it without question... then, "we" can bomb their entire cities, killing everything in sight and it's all alright because "we meant well". We're the good guys so our killings are good. 

Even little children would be too sensible to believe in bs like that, but somehow some adults do believe it.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

noco said:


> You obviously do not know so you cannot give an answer.



Dude, I linked an article talking about Australian Muslims protesting isis, you ar unbelievable, you just enjoy sitting in your own echo chamber, you can't google and you can't even click a link.


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Dude, I linked an article talking about Australian Muslims protesting isis, you ar unbelievable, you just enjoy sitting in your own echo chamber, you can't google and you can't even click a link.




Your link referred to overseas protests.
Are you prepared to protest about the 100 jihadists, who have been fighting with ISIS, and who are about to re-enter Australia because of some legal loop hole which will allow them back?

Do we really need this type back in Australia....It spells big trouble ahead.

*Sydney terror plot: Man and woman to be charged
Khaled Sharrouf stripped of Australian citizenship
AUSTRALIA faces a deluge of some of the world’s most radical terrorists coming to our shores thanks to the failure of the government’s tough new laws to keep them out.

 Intelligence experts have warned there is now nothing stopping more than 100 homegrown terrorists, including those fighting with Islamic State, from lawfully returning to Australia, despite new anti-terror laws designed to strip them of their Australian citizenship.

 Immigration Minister Peter Dutton introduced the legislation more than a year ago. But while the government spent yesterday promoting its tough approach to terrorism, The Daily Telegraph can reveal Mr Dutton has been told his laws are exposed to serious loopholes.

 Editorial: Safety overrides any civil liberties

 Neil Prakash is the most senior Aussie terrorist fighting for IS.

 Hafsa Mohamed is a jihadi bride from Sydney.

 Perth student Muhammed Sheglabo has fought with IS.

 Hamza El Baf has fought for IS in Syria.
One grave problem is the requirement for authorities to prove an Australian terrorist holds citizenship of another country, which requires the co-operation of Syria or Iraq, who have so far refused to help.

 Of the 100 Australians fighting with Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, only Khaled Sharrouf has had his citizenship stripped under the new laws. The case was successful because the Lebanese government co-operated with Canberra.

 The Turnbull government has been warned that extremist fighters are likely to return home to Australia as IS weakens and is driven out of Syria and Iraq.

 Already, 40 fighters involved in the bloody conflict in Iraq and Syria have come back to Australia in the past three years.

 Former Sydney cleric Mostafa Mahamed Farag is linked with Al-Qaeda.

 Former Melbourne man Yusuf Mohamed Yusuf has fought in Syria.

 Zehra Duman is an Australian recruiter of IS wives.

 Mounir Raad, formerly of Melbourne, has fought with IS.
Another problem with the law is that a terrorist can only be stripped of their citizenship if they fight for a “declared terrorist organisation”.

 Islamic state is the only Declared Terrorist Organisation and was listed as such as recently as May 2016.

 Security officials have told the government that under the law it will be unable to prove Syrian-based Islamic extremist group Al-Nusra Front or Jabhat Fateah al-Sham is a terrorist organisation.


Most worryingly, the law is not retrospective. Australian fighters who tweeted pictures of themselves holding a bloodied head before May 2016 would be allowed back.

 In the past year, terrorists have stopped publicising their atrocities, and it is believed any barbaric terrorist offences that took place before the December 2015 date of the new legislation cannot be taken into account.

 There are some 100 Australians fighting or engaged with terrorist groups in Syria and Iraq, down from 110 in January. About 40 fighters have already returned to Australia.

 The legislation was far stronger when first drafted, but the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security recommended 27 amendments, all of which were adopted so the laws would pass with bipartisan support.
*





Bungle lets Aussie jihadis come home
*AUSTRALIA faces a deluge of some of the world’s most radical terrorists coming to our shores thanks to the failure of the government’s tough new laws to keep them out.
dailytelegraph.com.au*


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

noco said:


> Your link referred to overseas protests.





Nope it's talking about Australian Muslims.


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Nope it's talking about Australian Muslims.




Are you prepared to protest about the 100 jihadists, who have been fighting with ISIS, and who are about to re-enter Australia because of some legal loop hole which will allow them back?


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

noco said:


> Are you prepared to protest about the 100 jihadists, who have been fighting with ISIS, and who are about to re-enter Australia because of some legal loop hole which will allow them back?



Well you would need to give me a lot more information before I committed myself to a protest, where exactly did you here about this.

I trust the authorities to take care of terrorism business for me, I am not going to be stressing about it, I left that business a long time ago.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

Boxerdidy said:


> Islam does not make people evil either. .




I don't agree, religion in general can Make people do some wicked things.

Beliefs in form your actions, and crazy beliefs can create crazy actions, so religion should be avoided.

I just don't think attacking an entire group is the best way to move society away from religion, Religions thrive on being persecuted, by attacking moderate muslims you are making Islam stronger, and demonising just Islam, creates polarisation and pushes people of other religions more into their silly faiths.


----------



## Tisme (3 March 2017)

http://www.afr.com/business/infrastructure/sultans-swing-into-state-asset-sales-20160506-goo9cb

Pauline Hanson went town on this


----------



## Tisme (3 March 2017)

8loody Catholics:


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Do you even fact check to see if your claims are true.
> 
> It took me 1 min to find a video of muslims protesting isis





I am sorry to say you are so naive to believe that propaganda.......It is an article to reassure  and relax Christians and Infidels in to false sense of security like that Muslim woman  who is on the pay roll of the ABC who clearly stated recently that women in Saudi Arabia have more equal rights than women in the Western World.
Did you believe her or not?
Just more propaganda to relax the naive.


----------



## Ves (3 March 2017)

noco said:


> Just more propaganda to relax the naive.



Why should we get angry when people like you never show any anger?


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

Ves said:


> Why should we get angry when people like you never show any anger?




You obviously have not understood my point and that is the reason you have come back with a negative answer.


----------



## Ves (3 March 2017)

noco said:


> You obviously have not understood my point and that is the reason you have come back with a negative answer.



No I don't understand your point at all.

You are constantly asking others why they are not protesting.  Yet you yourself don't do it.

It doesn't make much sense to me.


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

Ves said:


> No I don't understand your point at all.
> 
> You are constantly asking others why they are not protesting.  Yet you yourself don't do it.
> 
> It doesn't make much sense to me.




Ves I do plenty of protesting here on ASF...I am past the use by date and heading for 90......I don't think I will be on the streets protesting but I can see an uprising coming from true blue Aussies....They could well take the law into their own hands.
The political revolution has begun.
This what I protesting about.
https://www.facebook.com/paul.j.watson.71/posts/10155041378256171


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)




----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Wot??? Google translator?
> 
> Why am I get pulled into an argument between you and luutzu? I'm a good guy.





noco said:


> but I can see an uprising coming from true blue Aussies....They could well take the law into their own hands




That sounds like an incitement to violence to me. I hope you have taken precautions against eavesdropping by the AFP on your private conversations.


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That sounds like an incitement to violence to me. I hope you have taken precautions against eavesdropping by the AFP on your private conversations.




It will come down to a case of kill or be killed..

It's OK if you disagree with me, I can't force you to be right.


----------



## Ves (3 March 2017)

noco said:


> Ves I do plenty of protesting here on ASF...I am past the use by date and heading for 90......I don't think I will be on the streets protesting but I can see an uprising coming from true blue Aussies....They could well take the law into their own hands.
> The political revolution has begun.



Hah!

You're only as old as you feel/act!


----------



## dutchie (3 March 2017)

School principal sacked over female exclusion.
The principal and deputy principal of Punchbowl Boys High School in Sydney have been dumped after it was revealed female teachers were excluded from taking part in official events at the largely Muslim public school.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/nati...l-principal-sacked-over-female-exclusion.html

What a joke. Is this what we really want in Australia? Is this the cost of "multiculturalism"?


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

dutchie said:


> School principal sacked over female exclusion.
> The principal and deputy principal of Punchbowl Boys High School in Sydney have been dumped after it was revealed female teachers were excluded from taking part in official events at the largely Muslim public school.
> 
> http://www.skynews.com.au/news/nati...l-principal-sacked-over-female-exclusion.html
> ...




There are some on this forum who would be quite happy to go along with it.......They can't get to this forum quick enough and  go all out in the defense of Muslims...They will find out one day if it is not too late.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

dutchie said:


> School principal sacked over female exclusion.
> The principal and deputy principal of Punchbowl Boys High School in Sydney have been dumped after it was revealed female teachers were excluded from taking part in official events at the largely Muslim public school.
> 
> http://www.skynews.com.au/news/nati...l-principal-sacked-over-female-exclusion.html
> ...




This is exactly what will happen if we let the Muslim population get too large in this country.

They should always remain a minority and a small one at that.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> This is exactly what will happen if we let the Muslim population get too large in this country.
> 
> They should always remain a minority and a small one at that.




Firstly, you should tar all muslims with the same brush.

I don't want to get painted as a racist just because there are plenty of examples of white Aussies who are racist, So why should we tar a whole muslim group when we wouldn't want to be stereotyped our selves.

but also, wasn't it not to long ago that our own culture excluded women from a lot of things?

We turned out alright.

But, if this is a private school, in my opinion they can do what they like, but should get zero funding.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

noco said:


> There are some on this forum who would be quite happy to go along with it.......They can't get to this forum quick enough and  go all out in the defense of Muslims...They will find out one day if it is not too late.




You said you were 90, what were womens rights like in your prime?

If you had sisters, did they get the same opportunities as you? did they have the same employment and education rights?

Did your mother have the same rights as your father, could your grandmother vote when she was 18?

From my understanding your generation wasn't the shining star of womens rights.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> But, if this is a private school, in my opinion they can do what they like, but should get zero funding




Well, it was a public school. So they are expected to be inclusive of Muslims but exclusive of women ? 

And it's not an argument to say "look what happened in the past we were *just as bad*". But we aren't any more. We have moved on and so should people who still have an archaic faith or they can go somewhere else.


----------



## luutzu (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, it was a public school. So they are expected to be inclusive of Muslims but exclusive of women ?
> 
> And it's not an argument to say "look what happened in the past we were *just as bad*". But we aren't any more. We have moved on and so should people who still have an archaic faith or they can go somewhere else.




White men no longer beat up their wife? Like none?

No one's defending abuse of women or men or anyone; no one's defending sexist nonsense. 

It's just a bit much to fine an example or two among the Muslims then go all out banging on about it as all Muslims are like that. That's a insane.


----------



## luutzu (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, it was a public school. So they are expected to be inclusive of Muslims but exclusive of women ?
> 
> And it's not an argument to say "look what happened in the past we were *just as bad*". But we aren't any more. We have moved on and so should people who still have an archaic faith or they can go somewhere else.




And no, the West/Christians didn't get better and moved on from their sexist ways because Christian culture mature up and got all moral.

They have to abandon it because citizens, Christians and others, wouldn't have it and pass laws against such abuse. That's how it got better.

Since Muslims are living under the same law that prohibit abuse, they too will move on. Those that don't will have to deal with the law. That's how it works.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> White men no longer beat up their wife? Like none?
> 
> No one's defending abuse of women or men or anyone; no one's defending sexist nonsense.
> 
> It's just a bit much to fine an example or two among the Muslims then go all out banging on about it as all Muslims are like that. That's a insane.




Please read the article quoted.

If it was only "one or two" Muslims then the school would not have had to exclude women from their ceremonies. 

The school was majority Muslim and they expected their ancient beliefs to be observed in a society where in total they are about 2% of the population. ie they expected us to exclude 50% of our society (women) for the sake of 2% of them.

This is the way it will be if they get too big in future. We can't let it happen here.


----------



## luutzu (3 March 2017)

noco said:


> It will come down to a case of kill or be killed..
> 
> It's OK if you disagree with me, I can't force you to be right.




So all the people in the ME were planning to come over and kill us did they?

Their fighter jets were fueled and ready, their carriers and logistics were all set... just waiting for the go ahead and the West will be taken over. 

Oh, Saddam and them Arabs got WMD and were about to send it over. 

Lucky we went in, taken them out and find nothing. Maybe oil. Who would have thought there's the world's second largest reserves of oil in Iraq; and massive trillion dollar worth of reserves of lithium, copper, gold... in Afghanistan.


----------



## luutzu (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Please read the article quoted.
> 
> If it was only "one or two" Muslims then the school would not have had to exclude women from their ceremonies.
> 
> ...




We're not even letting them beating their wives and kids in their own home, what made you think we'll just let them doing sexist stuff on our own women and children? 

Ain't going to happen.

And what make you think they're all sexist, wife abusing people?

There's plenty of lady doctors and lady GPs around the area; plenty of lady Pharmacists that I've seen. Their girls are sent to school. So I don't understand all these worries.

Does that mean there are no extremely religious or just extremely anal Muslims who would abuse their family and beat up their kids for reading... maybe. That's a crime isn't it?


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, it was a public school. So they are expected to be inclusive of Muslims but exclusive of women ?
> 
> .




Nope, if it's a government funded school and they are breaking any laws or rules, then they should be dealt with, doesn't the article say action has already been taken?



> And it's not an argument to say "look what happened in the past we were *just as bad*". But we aren't any more. We have moved on and so should people who still have an archaic faith or they can go somewhere else




I am saying that we used to do things just as bad but managed to change, so writing of a whole group seems silly.

Also, it seems like Noco needs to come down off his high horse considering his own generation was just as guilty, he wouldn't want us stereotyping him.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Firstly, you should tar all muslims with the same brush.
> 
> .




Clearly I meant shouldn't


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> We're not even letting them beating their wives and kids in their own home, what made you think we'll just let them doing sexist stuff on our own women and children?




That doesn't make any sense to me.


----------



## luutzu (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Clearly I meant shouldn't




Don't know man, slip of the fingers can also be a Freudian Slip.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Also, it seems like Noco needs to come down off his high horse considering his own generation was just as guilty, he wouldn't want us stereotyping him.




Leaving noco out of it, what happened at that school was a demonstration of what will happen in the rest of society if the Muslim population gets too large. They will want their own police force and ambulance (without women) and 'their' areas will be off limits to everyone else. It happens in other countries.

It's a disaster waiting to happen and we can't pretend otherwise for the sake of PC.


----------



## luutzu (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That doesn't make any sense to me.




We have laws against domestic abuse. No beating wives/husbands; no child abuse.

That law applies to everyone, Muslims included.

i.e. they can't abuse their own family (even if they wanted to, and we're assuming that they all wants to for some reason). If they do, our law will lock them up.

So to think that somehow, if there's enough of Muslims around, all other Australians will just let them run the place and do what crazy things Muslims all, obviously, do. 

Not only is that not knowing what Muslims are generally like, it's just not understanding how politics and reality really work.

an old example I'm repeating here is that that's like saying that Australia is a proper democracy where policies are always made to the wishes of the majority of Australians. That's why the few uber rich Australians get most of the benefits while the majority poor and  battling Aussies voted for the rich to get richer at their expense.


----------



## Tisme (3 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> We have laws against domestic abuse. No beating wives/husbands; no child abuse.
> 
> That law applies to everyone, Muslims included.





You don't really think those hessian bagged women trailing obediently behind their western dressed husbands are going to ask for help?


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> what happened at that school was a demonstration of what will happen in the rest of society if the Muslim population gets too large.




Again you are acting like all muslims believe the same thing. You know there are female muslim doctors right, and female muslim police.

there are hundreds of different muslim religions, they don't all believe the same thing.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Again you are acting like al muslims believe the same thing. You know there are female muslim doctors right, and female muslim police.




It's a cunning plan.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> You don't really think those hessian bagged women trailing obediently behind their western dressed husbands are going to ask for help?




neither do a lot of the white girls, whats your point?


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

Ves said:


> Hah!
> 
> You're only as old as you feel/act!





Value Collector said:


> Nope, if it's a government funded school and they are breaking any laws or rules, then they should be dealt with, doesn't the article say action has already been taken?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




OFF TOPIC.

Guilty of what?

In my school days, we stood the parade ground and sang the National Anthem......God save our king.

And  the kids marched into their class rooms to the beat of the drum by yours truly.

If we misbehaved in the class room we were sent to the Head teacher and received 6 of the best on the hand with the cane...You dare not tell your parents because you would get another on the back side......If you had a fight in the school grounds you would be reprimanded and forced to shake hands.......Now a days there has to be an inquiry about bullying


----------



## Tisme (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> neither do a lot of the white girls, whats your point?




The comment was about Muslim woman, relevant to the post luutzu made. IF I wanted to be ubiquitous I would have framed it in that context.

And last time I looked Muslims are "white", "brown", "black". "tallow" etc


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2017)

noco said:


> OFF TOPIC.
> 
> Guilty of what?
> 
> ...




You are avoiding the point.

When you were a young man, were women treated as equals in the workplace? 

Could they be employed in the same roles? Earn the same pay? Get the same education?

I am simply pointing out that the "OL' days" that you are so nostalgic about, were full of the same abuses that you charge the Muslims with, but you managed to somewhat change your ways (I hope)


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am simply pointing out that the "OL' days" that you are so nostalgic about, were full of the same abuses that you charge the Muslims with, but you managed to somewhat change your ways (I hope)




So what is your evidence that Muslims will change their ways ?

They have a sacred text that is inviolate, the words of the Prophet himself, that says that apostates must be killed etc etc.

As long as this stuff is perpetuated there will be people that believe it and are motivated to violence because of it. The only way to get Muslims to change their ways is to ban the teachings or at least not give them any of our money to perpetuate the nonsense.

What else would you suggest ?


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

We are only at the tip of the iceberg here in Australia.

What is happening in Canada ATM hopefully will open your eyes.....Muslims are leaving the USA and are ready to invade Canada....They are massed on the northern borders of the USA  and all since Trump took office...And further more they are not Democrats........

I warned some 10 years ago and again 7 years ago how Muslims were infiltrating the Western World......I was accused of being a racist and two of my posts were deleted.

...I took a rap over the knuckles at that time but how right I was then and now it is all starting to unfold.

I can only hope we get rid of Turnbull in time because he is just another puppet to George Soros just Trudeau in Canada and Merkel in Germany....Why I say that is because he acting just like Trudeau and Merkel.......Now don't bother coming back to ask for proof......it is my honest opinion.


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You are avoiding the point.
> 
> When you were a young man, were women treated as equals in the workplace?
> 
> ...




YOU ARE OFF TOPIC.

Firstly, the majority of women never worked once they became married and  had  kids to raise......Most of the younger women  either worked behind  a retail counter, in an office or  in one of the banks as tellers..You would never see a man in those jobs.

They certainly had the same free government education as males until one decided to go to University....If you went to Uni your parents were regarded as well off.......I wanted to study medicine or Pharmacy.....I wanted to follow in my Grand Father's foot steps who was a Pharmacist and well know in Port Douglas as the local doctor, dentist and chemist.....There is a photo of him with his history  attached to a pole in Macrossan Street  Port Douglas.

My next choice was a trade and I took on plumbing like my uncle......But you know what I hated being a tool man.....At 23 years of age I became a supervisor and at 28, works superintendent with some 200 plumbers and labourers.....I enjoyed the admin and estimating work. 

What an ironic statement you have just made .

*"I am simply pointing out that the "OL' days" that you are so nostalgic about, were full of the same abuses that you charge the Muslims with, but you managed to somewhat change your ways (I hope)"*

How in the hell can you state those days were full of abuse that I charge the Muslims with

I think you are clutching with straws  now.

Is there anything else you would like to know?


----------



## Tisme (3 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am simply pointing out that the "OL' days" that you are so nostalgic about, were full of the same abuses that you charge the Muslims with, but you managed to somewhat change your ways (I hope)




What old days is that? My family tree going back to the late 1600's so far is not one of abuses on women and children? In fact the women in my lineage have been well respected, been working mothers with good educations.... the men have probably been the ones well trained in fraternal obedience (we were taught to knit, crochet, cook, etc because no way were our family males going to be making women do menial tasks).


----------



## noco (3 March 2017)

Could this be the start of a revolution among Muslim women standing up for their rights?

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/d...every-person-who-cares-about-women-sees-this/


----------



## wayneL (4 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Firstly, you should tar all muslims with the same brush.
> 
> I don't want to get painted as a racist just because there are plenty of examples of white Aussies who are racist, So why should we tar a whole muslim group when we wouldn't want to be stereotyped our selves.
> 
> ...



It's not the point. 

Any society will be negatively impacted if a critical mass of an incongruent culture is reached via uncontrolled immigration. The resident and new cultural invasion being irrelevant. Too many whitefellas in another place will have the dame effect on them.

PC left is welcome to use the irony as it still supports my point.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> My family tree going back to the late 1600's so far is not one of abuses on women and children?




How the hell would you know that? it's impossible to track all your family history back that far, thats like 12 generations, you would have all sorts of abuses and terrible people in a family tree with 12 generations in it.



> In fact the women in my lineage have been well respected, been working mothers with good educations.




You know after 12 generation you have 4295 Grand Mothers in your family tree, Are you sure they have all been well respected, with good educations? I doubt it.

And anyway, its not like many wives back then talked about their husbands beating them.



> the men have probably been the ones well trained in fraternal obedience




You also had 4295 Grand fathers in a 12 generation family tree, are you sure these statements apply to all of them.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> It's not the point.
> 
> Any society will be negatively impacted if a critical mass of an incongruent culture is reached via uncontrolled immigration. .





The stereotypes that are being used to describe muslims here e.g. fanatical extremists that beat their wives. don't apply to all immigrants, they would be a subset of the total muslim population, and the total muslim population is like 2% of Australian population.

So where is this "Critical mass"


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2017)

noco said:


> Firstly, the majority of women never worked once they became married and  had  kids to raise......





Was that because society in your day didn't see women as equals?

Or was it random chance that most doctors were male, where as nurse were women?


----------



## SirRumpole (4 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Was that because society in your day didn't see women as equals?




Talking to people of noco's generation I think it was more a patriarchal view that children would be better looked after if one of the parents was home to do that rather than in the workforce, and I think that there is an argument to support that, but home parenting is something to be encouraged but not enforced.

I can see the women's point of view though. I certainly wouldn't want to be housebound looking after brats, but if the children were planned then looking after them is part of the territory.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Talking to people of noco's generation I think it was more a patriarchal view that children would be better looked after if one of the parents was home to do that rather than in the workforce, and I think that there is an argument to support that, but home parenting is something to be encouraged but not enforced.
> 
> I can see the women's point of view though. I certainly wouldn't want to be housebound looking after brats, but if the children were planned then looking after them is part of the territory.



in noco's day it was enforced

 no doubt muslims that want to confine womens duties to the home use similar rationalisations.


----------



## wayneL (4 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> The stereotypes that are being used to describe muslims here e.g. fanatical extremists that beat their wives. don't apply to all immigrants, they would be a subset of the total muslim population, and the total muslim population is like 2% of Australian population.
> 
> So where is this "Critical mass"



For real?

France, if not already there, is pretty close... as are other European countries. 

Too many Poms in Spain was ruining their culture. 

Already,  parts of Uk, Germany, and other countries are severely affected...

How about whites in several countries in Africa? And how about our own example?


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## SirRumpole (4 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> i
> 
> no doubt muslims that want to confine womens duties to the home use similar rationalisations.




And they are wrong ?


----------



## Tisme (4 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> in noco's day it was enforced
> 
> no doubt muslims that want to confine womens duties to the home use similar rationalisations.




So our laws have changed to make sure women get a better deal. You are apologising for a behaviour that is at odds with our own rules....why? 

Because we were savages 5000 years ago, doesn't mean savagery by a bunch of people today is OK because they missed an evolutionary step. Their arrested development is their own doing and like any species that is doomed through lack of adjustment, they will eradicate themselves ...unfortunately they will take their captives (us) with them.


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## luutzu (4 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> So our laws have changed to make sure women get a better deal. You are apologising for a behaviour that is at odds with our own rules....why?
> 
> Because we were savages 5000 years ago, doesn't mean savagery by a bunch of people today is OK because they missed an evolutionary step. Their arrested development is their own doing and like any species that is doomed through lack of adjustment, they will eradicate themselves ...unfortunately they will take their captives (us) with them.




Religion has always been backwards. That does not mean the people of that culture are also as backward as "their" religion can be interpreted to be as backward.

Take the Arabs in the ME. Iran and Afghanistan was secular, was democratic way back in the 1950s. They might have been democratic a lot sooner if it weren't for British Imperialism but that's history right?

So in the 50s, secular and democratic Iran was overthrown, with the Shah put back on his Peacock Throne. Guess by whom?

More recently, the Arab Spring. A democratic uprising across the ME. Overturning dictators and despots. 

We liberators and democratic nation building folks didn't like that did we? That goes against our national interests and international game plan. So the Arab democratic revolution was put down, quick smart. With, say, Egypt having just overthrown its US-backed dictator, put in a democratically elected president [and I'm not saying it's all great and the guy they chose were all sweet, but it's a start to a democracy...]... 

Anyway, Obama went to Cairo and gave a great speech didnt he? Then soon after, under some pretext, democracy in Egypt was overthrown and a new dictator was put in place. Now receiving a few billions a year in US military aids. 

Now there's Yemen. The US aren't too happy with what the Saudi has been doing so they're taking it into their own hands and this week alone, directly involves in some 30 airstrikes on Yemen. A country that's been on the edge of famine for the past two years.


As I've said before, citizens in general are liberal, nice and decent folks. This, as Howard Zinn observes, is why the gov't goes to extraordinary length to convince us that whoever it is the gov't wants to take out, they deserve it because they're evil, because they are going to attack us so it's kill or be kill.

So here we are, discussing whether or not Islam and Muslims are evil. How evil? A whole lot evil or just a little bit evil. 

How they're different to us, pray all day and beat their wives and kids up all night. Because that's how you have a happy marriage and bring up a good family - physical abuse! 

So maybe we privileged citizens ought to stop being useful idiots. 

Maybe then millions of other people doesn't need to die or being blown to the winds; maybe then too our own warmongers don't get to spend billions and trillions on bombs and fighter jets. Maybe then we'd get to keep some of that cash and use it towards providing healthcare, education and other useless stuff like that.

That or we just keep on beating up Muslims, say how nasty they are and how superior we and our culture and people are. Feels good that way, but it won't last, would it?


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## Value Collector (4 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And they are wrong ?




Yep, but if you think all Muslims think like that, you are wrong.



Tisme said:


> So our laws have changed to make sure women get a better deal. You are apologising for a behaviour that is at odds with our own rules....why?
> 
> Because we were savages 5000 years ago, doesn't mean savagery by a bunch of people today is OK because they missed an evolutionary step. Their arrested development is their own doing and like any species that is doomed through lack of adjustment, they will eradicate themselves ...unfortunately they will take their captives (us) with them.




Who is taking about 5000 years ago.

I am responding directly to Noco, he wants to write off an entire group of people because some of that group hold beliefs about women which were common place in his day.


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## noco (5 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, but if you think all Muslims think like that, you are wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think the smarter water way to look at is that Muslim women are enforced to stay at home because of their husband's religious beliefs.

I am going back to the 30s to 50s era, when the modern cons of today were not available in the years mentioned, the wife of the house was compelled, as different to enforce.

There were no washing machines or dryers .....Cloths, linen and towels were boiled in a wood fired copper, drain, rinsed, then through the blue water.......Each operation was hand wrung before being hung on the line in the back yard......With a family of three that was 4 hours work twice per week....Today, you throw the clothes washing machine add detergent, rinse material and come back in 30 minutes when the all is done.

Kids went to school with a cut lunch as there were no tuck shops.

There were no child care centres where to leave kids while Mum went to work.

Because there were no mechanical equipment to clean floors, floors were scrubbed on the woman's hands and knees.

Ironing was done with a mother pots iron heated on the stove.

Most places in those days all had wood fired stoves with a hot water tank on the side....No electrical hot water systems......Bath time for three plus Mum and Dad began when the first kid arrived home from school as there was only enough water in the stove tank for one bath at a time, then you had to wait another half hour for the tank to get hot...Sometimes we had to share a both to save time....Hot water was carried in a bucket from kitchen to bathroom....Our first electrical hot water system was installed by yours truly in 1948.

All food for the family was home cooked on the wood fire...No take away-fast food outlets

Al very time consuming.

So I hope I have enlightened you as to reasons why  women stayed home to take care of the home and the family choirs.......There was no spare time for her work as well.


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## SirRumpole (5 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, but if you think all Muslims think like that, you are wrong.




OK, so what's your estimate ? 50% of Muslims are traditional ie woman is subservient and 50% are 'modern' ? And what is your basis for that ?


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## Tisme (5 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Who is taking about 5000 years ago.




That's just comparative fact .. I threw that in for free



Value Collector said:


> I am responding directly to Noco, he wants to write off an entire group of people because some of that group hold beliefs about women which were common place in his day.




Well I'm sure your exposure over in the conflict theatre gave you some insight of the few who would have befriended you, but we all know the what happens when the fear of Western military might leaves don't we.

Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan any country with "stan" in it and women are brutalised and boko haram prevails.


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## Muschu (5 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> What old days is that? My family tree going back to the late 1600's so far is not one of abuses on women and children? In fact the women in my lineage have been well respected, been working mothers with good educations.... the men have probably been the ones well trained in fraternal obedience (we were taught to knit, crochet, cook, etc because no way were our family males going to be making women do menial tasks).




I am not sure what the second question mark means but do agree with VC that I don't understand how you can know this.  I only learned, when I was 60, that my great-grandfather in Scandinavia, sexually abused one of his daughters.  He was charged and convicted of this when he immigrated to Australia some years later.

As for the Islam / Muslim debate:  I find the fact that so many [not all] posters seem to have such inflexible ["I'm right"] views.  This can perhaps make discussion pointless and the debate turns into one of defending and attacking without any listening.
My own views, and I choose not to enter the debate, include shades of gray.  I have also worked with Muslim people, particularly since 1997.


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## Tisme (5 March 2017)

Muschu said:


> I am not sure what the second question mark means but do agree with VC that I don't understand how you can know this.  I only learned, when I was 60, that my great-grandfather in Scandinavia, sexually abused one of his daughters.  He was charged and convicted of this when he immigrated to Australia some years later.
> 
> As for the Islam / Muslim debate:  I find the fact that so many [not all] posters seem to have such inflexible ["I'm right"] views.  This can perhaps make discussion pointless and the debate turns into one of defending and attacking without any listening.
> My own views, and I choose not to enter the debate, include shades of gray.  I have also worked with Muslim people, particularly since 1997.





Because I have a documented history of my family; they were among the earliest of free settlers into Oz and the women played an equally dominant role ... they had to to survive and carve out a minor legacy for their offspring. They came from good "honest" stock in the United Kingdom, where you could be jailed for life if breaking even minor laws, let alone kiddy fiddling.

This argument isn't about Afghan camel trains in the outback, isn't about Armenian migrants from the 50's, Lebanese Christians and the odd Muslim, etc. This argument is the mass influx of people from entrenched barbaric and warring nations who refuse to assimilate into our culture and by & large have no offering to our nation in terms of special expertise. Migration into Oz had a purple patch where migration was based on skills of industry and agriculture with ability to blend into and advance our nation, not hasten its demise into a place of fear.... that time left as PC entered the room.

It's bad enough the bloodstock of the UK and Europe here argue the toss about everything, but at least they put our nation first, not some idealogue that belongs in the 7th century nomad deserts of North Africa and Middle East.

We have a lifestyle our own, and we are giving it up because we don't have the stomache to belly ache about it incase we don't get support or the aggrieved haul us through the courts using biased laws like 18C which were supposed create personal development opportunities instead of sueing for wealth creation and fame.


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## Muschu (5 March 2017)

_"This argument is the mass influx of people from entrenched barbaric and warring nations who refuse to assimilate into our culture and by & large have no offering to our nation in terms of special expertise."_

That is quite generalised really and this kind of opinion does concern me.  Just my perspective.
But you may get my point that much of the "discussion" on this thread is pointless. 
Let's say you are right and another poster vehemently disagrees and offers you an opposing view.  Net result?  Is there anything to be gained if views are fixed?
As for our families some centuries ago.  On my mother's side an ancestor was jailed in Liverpool [as an Army staff sergeant] for theft. He was later sent to Australia as a convict....Research into his background reveals that he later became a teacher and then a businessman, contributing to society. 
Your family seems, from everything you have learned, to have been "solid" [saying that in the most positive of senses] but surely neither of us knows the intricacies of their behaviours. 
I think I've turned out OK but certainly not flawless. Can't say any more in case I am arrested. 
Enjoy your day Tisme.


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## noco (5 March 2017)

I am going to stick my  neck out here and open a scenario question for sensible debate.

I listened to an Muslim Mufti on a Face Book U-Tube stating that there will be an Islamic country within Australia in the near future.......An Islamic country with Sharia law......Where he intended it to be, he did not elaborate.....Would it be in the Western suburbs of Sydney or some where in the middle of Australia?...H e did mention all the street names would be converted to Arabic.

Now how would he acquire the land from the local authority or would he just commandeer it without compensation?...Would he then take over the roads and rail and infrastructure like water supply and sewerage?..How would he maintain a continued and reliable supply of electricity?..How is he going to pay for it?

We pay out millions if not billions in welfare to Muslims who do not work or to Muslim men with 4 wives and 17 kids....Would they expect the Australian tax payer to continue with that support if they formed their own country?...I hope not......So with so many Muslims out of work how would they derive at enough money to maintain their status qua......

Would they  build a new airport or expect to use Australia air ports......So going from their new Islamic country into Australia, would they not require passports and visas.......Would they be allowed to work in Australia outside their own Muslim country? 

http://morningmail.org/islamic-immigration/


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## noco (5 March 2017)

noco said:


> I am going to stick my  neck out here and open a scenario question for sensible debate.
> 
> I listened to an Muslim Mufti on a Face Book U-Tube stating that there will be an Islamic country within Australia in the near future.......An Islamic country with Sharia law......Where he intended it to be, he did not elaborate.....Would it be in the Western suburbs of Sydney or some where in the middle of Australia?...H e did mention all the street names would be converted to Arabic.
> 
> ...




It took me a while to find it but here is the video referring to a Islam country in Australia.


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## Tisme (5 March 2017)

Muschu said:


> _"This argument is the mass influx of people from entrenched barbaric and warring nations who refuse to assimilate into our culture and by & large have no offering to our nation in terms of special expertise."_
> 
> That is quite generalised really and this kind of opinion does concern me.  Just my perspective.
> But you may get my point that much of the "discussion" on this thread is pointless.
> ...





I do enjoy my days Muschu and I think you know that if we don't forward our arguments there is zero chance of discussion. Your argument is that we shouldn't "tar everyone with the same brush" which is very noble, but not viable. Of course we all have individual friends who are Muslim, Christian, etc, but I'm not sure if any of mine are staunchly so ... perhaps one old Catholic girl who shows great hurt at hot x buns being consumed prior Easter Sunday.

Your'e lucky, your Scandinavian savages in boats forefathers matured in a modern day race as has Germany after generations of being Europe's resident dickh3ad.

You couldn't get an apparently nicer bloke than luutzu, but even he has to defend every wannabe migrant because he superimposes his own/family struggles of refugee years. His migrant posts are misplaced, because he refuse to analyse the true impact of a non assimilating culture with a plan to carve out their own nation within a nation.

It's innate to be tribally racial. The problem for a nation is when an incipient pathological disease, cultured on a petri dish of zombie supersitition and barbarism spreads like a harmful plague.... there isn't enough of us to inoculate the mindless victims of their ancestory.


----------



## Tisme (5 March 2017)

The cor eof the problem


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

noco said:


> I think the smarter water way to look at is that Muslim women are enforced to stay at home because of their husband's religious beliefs.
> 
> I am going back to the 30s to 50s era, when the modern cons of today were not available in the years mentioned, the wife of the house was compelled, as different to enforce.
> 
> ...




So man can't do any of that because it's time consuming? 

Got nothing to do with the sexism?

Didn't people of your generation only send boys to school while the girls, even if they're the eldest, get send to the kitchen?

Women, and some men, have to fight for a more equal society. And it's not Christian enlightenment that decides it's time to set the women free either.


----------



## noco (5 March 2017)

The Islamic weapon of mass reproduction.

Strange as it may seem but that was the policy of the Catholic Church in the first half of the 20th century whereby contraception was banned, hence the reason why we had large Catholic families....Then the latter half of the the last century married Catholic couples found they could not afford  large families and then the cheating began. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/663454310378140/permalink/1378969658826598/


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## luutzu (5 March 2017)

noco said:


> I am going to stick my  neck out here and open a scenario question for sensible debate.
> 
> I listened to an Muslim Mufti on a Face Book U-Tube stating that there will be an Islamic country within Australia in the near future.......An Islamic country with Sharia law......Where he intended it to be, he did not elaborate.....Would it be in the Western suburbs of Sydney or some where in the middle of Australia?...H e did mention all the street names would be converted to Arabic.
> 
> ...




Wow! 

How far from Australia is Townsville? Do you live in the same country or what?


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> I do enjoy my days Muschu and I think you know that if we don't forward our arguments there is zero chance of discussion. Your argument is that we shouldn't "tar everyone with the same brush" which is very noble, but not viable. Of course we all have individual friends who are Muslim, Christian, etc, but I'm not sure if any of mine are staunchly so ... perhaps one old Catholic girl who shows great hurt at hot x buns being consumed prior Easter Sunday.
> 
> Your'e lucky, your Scandinavian savages in boats forefathers matured in a modern day race as has Germany after generations of being Europe's resident dickh3ad.
> 
> ...





Come on McGee, even drunken warmongering genocidal imperialist White Europeans can become (mostly) civilised and humane (with some exceptions)... don't worry about the Muslims not getting out of their historical savageries.


----------



## noco (5 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Wow!
> 
> How far from Australia is Townsville? Do you live in the same country or what?




What a joke you are Luu.....I was hoping to get some sensible debate on this subject but what else could I expect from the likes of you.

You will have to face reality some day.


----------



## pixel (5 March 2017)

noco said:


> I am going to stick my  neck out here and open a scenario question for sensible debate.
> 
> I listened to an Muslim Mufti on a Face Book U-Tube stating that there will be an Islamic country within Australia in the near future.......An Islamic country with Sharia law......Where he intended it to be, he did not elaborate.....Would it be in the Western suburbs of Sydney or some where in the middle of Australia?...H e did mention all the street names would be converted to Arabic.
> 
> Now how would he acquire the land from the local authority or would he just commandeer it without compensation?...Would he then take over the roads and rail and infrastructure like water supply and sewerage?..How would he maintain a continued and reliable supply of electricity?..How is he going to pay for it?



Why should he pay for it, noco?
He'll do exactly as the British did 200-odd years ago:

Declare that the current people that live here are not really humans. The Poms used terms such as  "savages", but "infidels" will do just the same.
Then he can create the legal concept of "Terra Nullius", meaning the continent doesn't belong to anybody. ... or at least to nobody he recognises.

Based on the above, he claims all of Australia for Allah and his profit - umm: prophet.
He starts an all-out media campaign that Allah told him - in a pipe dream after 40 days of fasting in the Sandy Desert - that he is the Chosen One to rule the land according to Sharia
He promises every new arrival a house, a car, and an "indigenous family" as slaves to do the dirty work. Needless to mention that new arrivals must share the One True Faith and swear allegiance to him as the Chosen One. Shouldn't that work?


----------



## Muschu (5 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> I do enjoy my days Muschu and I think you know that if we don't forward our arguments there is zero chance of discussion. Your argument is that we shouldn't "tar everyone with the same brush" which is very noble, but not viable. Of course we all have individual friends who are Muslim, Christian, etc, but I'm not sure if any of mine are staunchly so ... perhaps one old Catholic girl who shows great hurt at hot x buns being consumed prior Easter Sunday.
> 
> Your'e lucky, your Scandinavian savages in boats forefathers matured in a modern day race as has Germany after generations of being Europe's resident dickh3ad.
> 
> ...




You didn't quite get my point Tisme but that may be my doing.  I see there are 107 pages of discussion on this thread so certainly people are putting forward their arguments.  I do wonder how much listening and reflection has occurred - as opposed to finding the language to defend or promote one's own position. 
I don't usually participate very much in these "discussions" as I find keyboards very limiting.  I do accept that for others it is what they want or, in a few instances, all that they have.  And I hope I have said that respectfully [and do not suggest this is your situation -as I have no familiarity with you].  I do remember a PM with Julia [for those who recall - a very resilient and well-respected lady of very strong views - and with some life issues] to whom these ASF opportunities were very important.  I also recall her suggesting to me, and appropriately so, that my own circumstances are very different.  She was right and I learned from that exchange. 
I'll leave the topic with you and hope it is fruitful and a good experience for all.
Regards


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

noco said:


> What a joke you are Luu.....I was hoping to get some sensible debate on this subject but what else could I expect from the likes of you.
> 
> You will have to face reality some day.




You're not after serious debate noco. I wish you were but I don't think you care for a debate.

Seems all you want is that we agree with you, and whatever news source you're reading, that Muslims are evil, bad, wife-bashing, child abusing, welfare cheating parasitic psychopaths hell bend on taking over Australia and all Western countries. 

There's about 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world. That's about 1/4th of all human on Earth. 


Let me repeat what Chomsky observed about the need to not put up with lies and hate like this.

Remember the Vietnam War? Chomsky said that beside a handful of activists, the American public have no idea about Vietnam, take JFK's words that the US is there to do something good... and so the war went on for almost a decade without the public knowing about it.

During that decade before the public see and get involved, pretty much the entire country was destroyed.

There's chemical weapons being spread across forests and farmland; there's Napalm; Agent Orange spreading and turning a tropical land into a desert noco. It still kills unborn babies decades after 1975... birth defects, cancer etc. etc.

Then there's the carpet bombing all over S.Vietnam. There's the almost total destruction of Laos and Cambodia - leading eventually to Pol Pot.

When the public see and understand the war, they get outraged and they want it to end. That kind of hippie dippy nonsense saves who knows how many lives. 


Now... when Bush Jr. and companies wanted to invade Iraq... the world was immediately out there protesting in the millions. All across Australia, America, Europe.

The public protests didn't managed to stop the war machines, but it did mean that no chemical weapons were used - less carpet bombing, a bit less daisy cutters and less carpet bombing. 

When enough fear is driven into people, another 5 Muslim countries got bombed and in the process of being destroyed. Millions are displaced and on the verge of famine; hundreds of thousands dead; and terrorists and warlords rises up all over the place.

Three to four generations of Muslims in the ME are being destroyed right now, as we speak.

But instead of thinking a bit about it, a bit about whether all these are necessary or moral or just... we idiots add more fuel and give our warmongers and merchant of death our permission to go kill people.

Why? How? Because we believe that they're evil. So let's kill all of them before they can kill us. 

It's a serious subject. You're not taking it seriously. And unfortunately, if enough people don't take it seriously, innocent people die. 

But let say it's a dog eat dog world, kill or be killed. Try and spend a trillion dollar a year on "security" and "defense" and watch how long a country can keep that up before it goes broke. 

Britain couldn't maintain their empire; other European powers couldn't keep their colonies; you seriously think the US, our great protector, can do it?

Know what happen when they can't? Another military power rises up and take over. First they'll take their nearby for more living space; then they go a bit further out. Australia is that bit further out noco.

Then what? Go nuclear and we all die?

It's important, need a bit more thinking than simply Muslims being backwards and Christians being noble and awesome.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's important, need a bit more thinking than simply Muslims being backwards and Christians being noble and awesome.




You keep up with this fallacy that all Westerners are Christians. Do you think VC is a Christian ? Do you think I am a Christian ? Do you think Tisme is a Christian ? 

Personally I want nothing to do with religion. I think it's mentally and emotionally enslaving. So what's happening in the ME is not a new Holy War of Christianity vs Islam. It's law and order vs barbarity.

Yes, civilians get killed, they always do. The Allies bombed Dresden in WW2, Hitler bombed London. How many civilians have ISIS killed to get their territory ? As I said before the people doing the main fighting against ISIS are Muslim countries, Iraq and Turkey and they want and need the allies in there to provide air cover for their troops. If we left, their troops would have it a lot tougher and take more casualties.

So lets not perpetuate this nonsense of a Holy War. It totally misrepresents the real situation.


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You keep up with this fallacy that all Westerners are Christians. Do you think VC is a Christian ? Do you think I am a Christian ? Do you think Tisme is a Christian ?
> 
> Personally I want nothing to do with religion. I think it's mentally and emotionally enslaving. So what's happening in the ME is not a new Holy War of Christianity vs Islam. It's law and order vs barbarity.
> 
> ...




I never said it's a Holy War. To Bush Jr., maybe he sees it as a Holy War. To some in the upper command, maybe they see it as some sort of Christian vs the world kind of war. But it's just simple imperial war for strategic power and riches. Same as it has always been, across all cultures and empires.

I don't use the word Christian to mean that these wars are Christian wars or wars fought by Christians. It's just a description that, in general, the West are known as a Christian civilisation. 

I even said elsewhere that if I'm a Christian, I'd be offended by these kind of warmongering in the name of Christianity and its value. For one, I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ wouldn't want this crab.


Now... since we agree that warmongers on our side aren't necessarily Christians; why then are their warmongers and terrorists doing what they do because of Islam?

And stop with that nonsense about good vs evil; law and order vs barbarity; democracy vs women abuse.

You know what a 50mm bullet does to a human head? It blows it clean off.

In an interview with Chris Hedges, he retell a story of a former US Marine witnessing an Iraqi child seeing his father's head blown clean off because his father didn't know there was a random check point the US just set up, thinking it was terrorists and so didn't slow down quick enough.

That's an accident then? We meant well? It's not as bad as ISIS beheading with a knife?

ISIS werne't even there when we went into Iraq. But now we have to stay there to help liberate people from ISIS? 

How noble. 

There are millions of Muslim/Arab refugees in camps all over the ME. Have we sent in much beside the UN a tent and some blanket?

There are thousands of refugees drowning trying to seek safety. Did we help or we call them all parasites and terrorists?

No, we only help them in their country, where we blow the heck out of it. 
So stay home, it's safe... until a stray missile or a terrorist happen to be nearby and they all die together.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2017)

Muschu said:


> I do remember a PM with Julia [for those who recall - a very resilient and well-respected lady of very strong views - and with some life issues] to whom these ASF opportunities were very important.




I was just thinking today how much I miss her balance and commonsense, even though we didn't always agree.

RIP Julia.


----------



## noco (5 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> You're not after serious debate noco. I wish you were but I don't think you care for a debate.
> 
> Seems all you want is that we agree with you, and whatever news source you're reading, that Muslims are evil, bad, wife-bashing, child abusing, welfare cheating parasitic psychopaths hell bend on taking over Australia and all Western countries.
> 
> ...




Luu, I have never been more serious about a sensible debate in my life....I really want to know how a Muslim country could operate in another country as in Australia.

You seem to have taken this as some kind of a joke so you spend 95% of your post on matters happening outside Australia....Another typical diversion by your good self away  from the real issue.......Would you please give some reason on how this could possibly work?.....I have made a statement with some of the obstacles that the Mufti would face if he attempted to form an Islamic country in another country.....I plead with you to offer some constructive ideas rather than make a joke of things but you just don't want to commit yourself to anything at all.

Please take things more seriously and refrain from further negative responses.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Now... since we agree that warmongers on our side aren't necessarily Christians; why then are their warmongers and terrorists doing what they do because of Islam?




Yeak, ok so we leave them to their own devices, Muslims butchering Muslims, and then they say the West did nothing and doesn't care.

We hear a lot from you about so called Western abuses but very little about what some Muslims are doing to other Muslims, but if you don't care about that, ok then...


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yeak, ok so we leave them to their own devices, Muslims butchering Muslims, and then they say the West did nothing and doesn't care.
> 
> We hear a lot from you about so called Western abuses but very little about what some Muslims are doing to other Muslims, but if you don't care about that, ok then...




The West doesn't care. The East doesn't care either. Even the Middle East doesn't care. So are the North and the South.

No body cares for anybody but themselves. And trust me, no imperial, no state power, ever care about another state.

When push come to shove, even Britain doesn't care about its colonies, Australia included.

Here are some stats about the US...

Half of its population are poor; some 30,000 Americans die each year from lack of medical care; Flint, Michigan has lead and polluted drinking water - still do after two years of the public and gov't cannot deny it anymore - there are some 3,000+ cities like Flint or worst.... Some 10 million American kids go to bed hungry...

How is that possible in the richest country in the in history of the world? One that care so much about Muslims and Arabs that it's willing to spend trillions blowing their countries to bits to show it cares.

And let's make this clear... I am not blaming the American people; or the normal citizens of the West. They're as much victims as anyone.

-----

Do you really need me to tell you how bad some Muslims and terrorists are? It's on TV almost 24/7.

And why do you take what I say as though I'm anti-Western civilisation or anti-Westerners? I am a Westerner by a whole lot of measures. Grew up learning and mingling in it.

Is imperialism a cherished Western values? Killing millions of people who does us no harm, that's a good thing? Starving poor people, cutting basic medicine and so killing some hundreds of thousands of kids and the elderly... those who are already victims of tyrants and dictators, that's a really nice way to hurt the despots?

If we're involve in that kind of war crimes, maybe it's a good thing to stop it. 

Isn't that what the best and most noble of Western [and human] values is all about?


----------



## noco (5 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> I never said it's a Holy War. To Bush Jr., maybe he sees it as a Holy War. To some in the upper command, maybe they see it as some sort of Christian vs the world kind of war. But it's just simple imperial war for strategic power and riches. Same as it has always been, across all cultures and empires.
> 
> I don't use the word Christian to mean that these wars are Christian wars or wars fought by Christians. It's just a description that, in general, the West are known as a Christian civilisation.
> 
> ...




It does not really matter whether we are a Christian or a non Christian Australia, the point is we want to live our lives the way we want to and don't need the Koran  rammed down our throats 24/7 and that is what it is coming to.

We fought to maintain our freedom in WW1 and WW2 and we will continue to do so.

If we are provoked into war, then we have a right to defend ourselves.....We have been invaded by a group of people who have left their own country of oppression and then when they get here they want to convert us to there oppressive ideas from their own country.

They are creating fear and intimidation into our minds and are quite content to create riots and havoc on our streets.


----------



## noco (5 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> The West doesn't care. The East doesn't care either. Even the Middle East doesn't care. So are the North and the South.
> 
> No body cares for anybody but themselves. And trust me, no imperial, no state power, ever care about another state.
> 
> ...




Where is your link to all this waffle about America?.....You don't want to talk about how many kids die every minute from malnutrition or lack of medication in North Africa......Just your leftist anti American BS.


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

noco said:


> Luu, I have never been more serious about a sensible debate in my life....I really want to know how a Muslim country could operate in another country as in Australia.
> 
> You seem to have taken this as some kind of a joke so you spend 95% of your post on matters happening outside Australia....Another typical diversion by your good self away  from the real issue.......Would you please give some reason on how this could possibly work?.....I have made a statement with some of the obstacles that the Mufti would face if he attempted to form an Islamic country in another country.....I plead with you to offer some constructive ideas rather than make a joke of things but you just don't want to commit yourself to anything at all.
> 
> Please take things more seriously and refrain from further negative responses.




Australia is a multi-cultural country yes? It's a democracy, freedom of speech, freedom to worship, separation of Church from State.

So how in the world do you reckon the Muslims, or any other ethnic/cultural group, could set up their own country within Australia? And that's not mentioning that there's laws against that kind of separatist rebellion against the country. 

Are there the Muslim Community? Of course there are. So are other ethnic communities around Australia. Do they teach their faith and culture and language? Sure they do. What's wrong with that?

It's a globalised world, might be useful to have citizens who know a bit or two about other countries and culture beside Australia and British histories alone.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Is imperialism a cherished Western values? Killing millions of people who does us no harm, that's a good thing? Starving poor people, cutting basic medicine and so killing some hundreds of thousands of kids and the elderly... those who are already victims of tyrants and dictators, that's a really nice way to hurt the despots?




What's the best way to hurt despots ? They don't care about their own people. If we send food and medicine supplies to their starving they give them to their soldiers instead so they can continue their reigns of terror over their own people and others.

Let's get this straight. THERE IS NO GOOD WAY TO GET RID OF DESPOTS WITHOUT HURTING ANYONE ELSE. Possibly a nuke on their Presidential Palace, but that would violate UN rules and would kill civilians in the process.

If you can work out a good way to get rid of Bashar al Assad please tell the UN . they would be delighted to hear it.


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

noco said:


> Where is your link to all this waffle about America?.....You don't want to talk about how many kids die every minute from malnutrition or lack of medication in North Africa......Just your leftist anti American BS.




You got the same internet I do, why not look it up and see if I'm lying about those stats.

How am I anti-American?

The stats I quote was about how ordinary Americans are being screwed to death; how that is not right or just for those Americans. So how am I anti American? Because I don't like their gov't lying them into endless wars, sucking the bloody and treasures from the American people to enrich arms merchants?

Maybe an average American would call me a friend.


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2017)

You


noco said:


> What a joke you are Luu.....I was hoping to get some sensible debate on this subject but what else could I expect from the likes of you.
> 
> You will have to face reality some day.



 you want to have a serious debate about some wackos pie in the sky dream to have succession in western Sydney?

If you think that would happen you are just as crazy as him


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What's the best way to hurt despots ? They don't care about their own people. If we send food and medicine supplies to their starving they give them to their soldiers instead so they can continue their reigns of terror over their own people and others.
> 
> Let's get this straight. THERE IS NO GOOD WAY TO GET RID OF DESPOTS WITHOUT HURTING ANYONE ELSE. Possibly a nuke on their Presidential Palace, but that would violate UN rules and would kill civilians in the process.
> 
> If you can work out a good way to get rid of Bashar al Assad please tell the UN . they would be delighted to hear it.




As far as I know, the UN [United Nations] does not want Assad dead.

Am I saying he's a nice guy? No. He's a dictator.

But did you know that the guy was a medical doctor? By other sources, Syria was getting more and more progressive? The whole country. 

But let's say it's bad and nasty... who are we to go and wreck the place, causing hundreds of thousands of death, millions homeless, all infrastructure destroyed.

Better that way than living under a dictator? If so, maybe let the Syrian people decide that.

------

Sanctions does not affect the lifestyle of dictators. That's a proven fact. Just look at Kim what's his face. Fat as fark while his people are lucky to have two full meals a day.

Look at Saddam under US sanctions. Live like a king, with more loyal servants and guards who better be loyal or else go starve themselves and their family.

Guess how many ordinary Iraqis suffer from the sanctions? All of them. 

The UN estimates some 100,000 to 500,000 Iraqi children died from malnutrition and preventable diseases because of the sanctions. Worth it though right? It got rid of Saddam didn't it?


And if we have to take him out because he kill his own people, gasing the Kurds and just do what dictators do... guess who gave him the gas that gased those Kurds? Guess who arms him and give him weapons? Guess what Secretary of Defense shook his hand while he does all that murdering?


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Because I have a documented history of my family; they were among the earliest of free settlers into Oz and the women played an equally dominant role ... they had to to survive and carve out a minor legacy for their offspring. They came from good "honest" stock in the United Kingdom, where you could be jailed for life if breaking even minor laws, let alone kiddy fiddling.
> 
> This argument isn't about Afghan camel trains in the outback, isn't about Armenian migrants from the 50's, Lebanese Christians and the odd Muslim, etc. This argument is the mass influx of people from entrenched barbaric and warring nations who refuse to assimilate into our culture and by & large have no offering to our nation in terms of special expertise. Migration into Oz had a purple patch where migration was based on skills of industry and agriculture with ability to blend into and advance our nation, not hasten its demise into a place of fear.... that time left as PC entered the room.
> 
> ...




So you have documented history of your 4000+ grandmothers?

I doubt you do,

For a start I bet any such documentation is only on one parents side, so straight away you lose 2000 grandmothers,

Then it would only be on one of your grandparents side, so you lose another 1000 grandmothers etc

take a look at it, I bet you can't list your 4000 grandmothers, let alone have a single clue about their life or history.

When you claim you have a family tree dating to 1600's, you are fooling yourself, it would be little more than a single branch, in a huge sprawling bushy tree of nameless faceless ancestors


----------



## Value Collector (5 March 2017)

Just to add to my point above,

You don't have a complete family history just because you know the names of some ancestors that arrived in Australia in 1780.

You would need to know the names of 512 couples from that generation, because you have 512 sets of grandparents from that generation.

Picking out one set of those 512 grandparents and saying "look I come from good stock" is a huge cherry picking exercise.

Unless your family had an insane amount of inbreeding, you are a of unknown decent like the rest of us "mongrels" lol


----------



## noco (5 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> You got the same internet I do, why not look it up and see if I'm lying about those stats.
> 
> How am I anti-American?
> 
> ...





luutzu said:


> The West doesn't care. The East doesn't care either. Even the Middle East doesn't care. So are the North and the South.
> 
> No body cares for anybody but themselves. And trust me, no imperial, no state power, ever care about another state.
> 
> ...




Yes and it has all happened under Obama Care.

http://obamacarefacts.com/facts-on-deaths-due-to-lack-of-health-insurance-in-us/

So what is the UN doing about the deaths of children dying around the world?...What are you going to do about it?

http://www.globalissues.org/article/715/today-21000-children-died-around-the-world


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> But let's say it's bad and nasty... who are we to go and wreck the place, causing hundreds of thousands of death, millions homeless, all infrastructure destroyed.




The West has no forces in Syria as far as I know, although it supports the Syrian Opposition.. The Russians have, they are supporting Assad. 



> *Since 30 September 2015, Russia, the only foreign power that has its military assets openly stationed in Syria, wages an intensive air campaign against ISIL and other anti-government forces in Syria, on the side and at the request of the Syrian government.* The military activity of Russia in Syria has been criticized by the U.S. and its regional allies; Turkey overtly clashed with the Russian military in November 2015 over the alleged violation of its airspace by a Russian plane as well as over Russia′s bombardment of the areas held by anti-government forces that are supported by Turkey, especially in the Bayırbucak region.[8] Since July 2015, Turkey also openly and actively opposes further expansion of the Syrian Kurdish forces along its border.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The West has no forces in Syria as far as I know, although it supports the Syrian Opposition.. The Russians have, they are supporting Assad.




Probably need to update your readings on Syria.

American special forces has been in Syria ("fighting ISIS", or arming them and other "moderate rebels") for quite a few years now. That's about to be picked up real fast.

Assad's gov't (regime) would have fallen if Russia didn't come in. And no, Russia didn't come in to bring peace either - it serves their interests.

I heard that China also have a couple of generals/air marshall in Syria too - no doubt "helping" and learning how democracy is brought about.


There's an article explaining why Assad was disliked... LNG pipeline.

Qatar and Saudi Arabia wanted to pipe their LNG through Syria, into Europe. That would mean Russia can no longer sell its gas to Europe.

Assad sided with Russia, and here we are, what a tyrant. Tyrants got to go.


----------



## luutzu (5 March 2017)

noco said:


> Yes and it has all happened under Obama Care.
> 
> http://obamacarefacts.com/facts-on-deaths-due-to-lack-of-health-insurance-in-us/
> 
> ...




ObamaCare did make it possible for millions of Americans to get healthcare - at a price. It does not permit Insurance companies to deny people insurance coverage due to "pre-existing condition" and such things like being old and needing healthcare and stuff.

The price? Heard an average family of 4 would pay about $17K a year on premium. Karching!

That's a price many millions, about 24 million, couldn't afford so they're to suffer and die somewhere.

Then recently heard that the Insurance companies now see that they have to pay people they covered for healthcare... dam. That'll eat into profit, can't have that.

So one of the scheme they come up with, seeing how they can't deny people coverage, is to only cover people only at certain hospitals.

So they figured that if you have a history of breast/prostate cancer; have a high chance of x illness... then they would only cover treatments at hospitals that does not have specialists or does not treat that kind of illness.

Capitalism at its best.

Or if you're in a car accident, got picked up and send to the nearest hospital... you better pray that that hospital is on the coverage list or else you're to pay for all of it.

-------------------

The UN have to retract their criticism of US/Israel and other dominant powers/donors of their war crimes. That would mean being nasty to those powers' victims, but it also mean they'll get some funding to help fund victims not directly linked to the noblest of armies.

Me, I'm doing nothing. Just I'd tell any politicians that want war to go fark themselves. Might not save lives, at least doesn't condone its taking.


----------



## noco (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> ObamaCare did make it possible for millions of Americans to get healthcare - at a price. It does not permit Insurance companies to deny people insurance coverage due to "pre-existing condition" and such things like being old and needing healthcare and stuff.
> 
> The price? Heard an average family of 4 would pay about $17K a year on premium. Karching!
> 
> ...




OFF TOPIC.

So why is Trump closing down the Obama Care?.....I guess he is going to replace it with something better.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/01/22/what-...nt-to-repeal-the-affordable-care-act-6397130/


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

noco said:


> OFF TOPIC.
> 
> So why is Trump closing down the Obama Care?.....I guess he is going to replace it with something better.
> 
> http://metro.co.uk/2017/01/22/what-...nt-to-repeal-the-affordable-care-act-6397130/




How was it off topic? Was a response to your blaming ObamaCare.

Obamacare was basically written by the insurance company. Premium have sky-rocketed. It is unaffordable for tens of millions of Americans. But it does help those with some money to not go broke when they get sick.

What'd be better would be a socialist one-payer Medicare system like that of Australia. Where it's not free, but where we all pay into it from our taxes [while we work].

When the taxpayer is young, more healthy, working and earning... they pay but don't use much. Then they get old, might get sick, might lost a job... but they're still covered.

That's an example of a good and just society where we look out for one another. Not this bs everyman for himself and nonsense about "choice" and "competition" and market forces.

But that's what big insurance wants - privatise it, force people into insurance... all will pay more, and all will get less standard of care as fine prints and exclusion clauses will screw them when they're worried about their health.


----------



## noco (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> How was it off topic? Was a response to your blaming ObamaCare.
> 
> Obamacare was basically written by the insurance company. Premium have sky-rocketed. It is unaffordable for tens of millions of Americans. But it does help those with some money to not go broke when they get sick.
> 
> ...





The thread is
Islam : Is it inherently evil.


----------



## qldfrog (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The West has no forces in Syria as far as I know, although it supports the Syrian Opposition.. The Russians have, they are supporting Assad.



I do believe the west UK/US and maybe even France have actually sent some "milit


SirRumpole said:


> The West has no forces in Syria as far as I know, although it supports the Syrian Opposition.. The Russians have, they are supporting Assad.



ary experts:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-train-anti-isis-rebels-have-arrived-in-syria
For the ones with either memory or brain, this is even a bit more than the west did when we sent weapons and experts in Afghanistan in the 90's to help Bin Laden kill naughty commies who wanted to prevent the good taliban from rulling the holy land /world.
How could the west not help some good fanatic muslims......


----------



## Tisme (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So you have documented history of your 4000+ grandmothers?
> 
> I doubt you do,
> 
> ...





You have proofs of what you are alleging? The fact you are implying my family is one of abuse is bad enough, but calling me out for lying about something that has been researched and reviewed is poor form.

Not everyone has crap genes, but I do understand that misery loves company, and you seem lonely? Possibly you can't help it


----------



## noco (6 March 2017)

The truth of how the Democrats are helping Islam is now being exposed.

https://www.worldnewspolitics.com/2.../?utm_source=CP&utm_campaign=CP&utm_medium=CP


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> You have proofs of what you are alleging? The fact you are implying my family is one of abuse is bad enough, but calling me out for lying about something that has been researched and reviewed is poor form.
> 
> Not everyone has crap genes, but I do understand that misery loves company, and you seem lonely? Possibly you can't help it





You descended from the Vikings, Irish, Scottish and the Poms. 

That's evident enough McGee


----------



## Tisme (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> You descended from the Vikings, Irish, Scottish and the Poms.
> 
> That's evident enough McGee





Exactly! .....and the French and Italian nobility ... pure blood.


----------



## Value Collector (6 March 2017)

> The fact you are implying my family is one of abuse is bad enough,




our family trees are so large, and so similar, it's not a bad claim, its just stating a fact that abuse happened in the past and so is part of  all our family trees, I mean if you are going back 10 generations, almost all of us here are cousins.



Tisme said:


> but calling me out for lying about something that has been researched and reviewed is poor form.




There is only three option here.

1. you have exaggerated because don't understand the math of compounding and just how many ancestors you have in prior generations.

2. Your family is so inbred that your family tree is narrow and easily tracked.

3. you are lying.

When I said you would have 512 sets of grandparents from the generation around the time of the first free settlers arriving in Australia, do you understand what that means?

Do you understand that claiming you come from "good honest stock", just because you have managed to piece together one branch of your family tree leading back to one of your 512 sets of grandparents is a fallacy?


Let me show you the math, you have...

2 Parents
4 Grandparents
8 Great  parents
16 Great Great Grandparents
32 Great Great Great Grandparents
64 Great Great Great Great Grandparents
128 Great Great Great Great Great Grandparents
256 Great Great Great Great Great Great Grandparents
512 Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Grandparents

so going back only 7 Generations and your number of grandparents that make up your gene pool, balloons to over a hundred.

So yes picking one set of those parents from the deep past and feeling super connected to them is silly,



> and the French and Italian nobility ... pure blood.




Yes My dog is a pure breed Dalmatian if you ignore 50% of the gene pool each generation for 7 generations.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> our family trees are so large, and so similar, it's not a bad claim, its just stating a fact that abuse happened in all our family trees.




Back on the subject of Islam, the one thing Muslims have in common is a poisonous ideology handed down through the generations.

It's like child abuse really, the abused become the abusers because it's the only thing they know.

While I accept that they are not all like that, I also accept that most Germans were not Nazis in WW2, but the ones with the guns always have the power over the ones without and that's how extremism spreads.

Don't let it happen here.


----------



## Value Collector (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Back on the subject of Islam,





Just one last thing and then I will leave it,

That couple from 1780 that Tisme, is proud to have as a ancestors is most likely an ancestor to 1 out of 5 Australias, and a guy that beat his wife from that generation that Tisme wouldn't want to admit is an ancestor is also ancestor to 1 out of 5 Australians.

This is an interesting video on the topic.


----------



## wayneL (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Remember the Vietnam War? Chomsky said that beside a handful of activists, the American public have no idea about Vietnam, take JFK's words that the US is there to do something good... and so the war went on for almost a decade without the public knowing about it.
> 
> During that decade before the public see and get involved, pretty much the entire country was destroyed.
> 
> ...



And yet,  grasshopper, I can think of no terrorist attacks upon innocent civilians in markets by Vietnamese,  Laotians Or Cambodians. 

Have you just made our point for us?


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Back on the subject of Islam, the one thing Muslims have in common is a poisonous ideology handed down through the generations.
> 
> It's like child abuse really, the abused become the abusers because it's the only thing they know.
> 
> ...




You know what Nazi Germany did to the Jews and other "undesirables" right?

Jews are said to be non-assimilating, ghetto dwelling, money grubbing, parasitic blah blah... All because their religion is this and that; as evidenced by their look and physical features.

That's very different from what Muslims are being classified right now?


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> And yet,  grasshopper, I can think of no terrorist attacks upon innocent civilians in markets by Vietnamese,  Laotians Or Cambodians.
> 
> Have you just made our point for us?




There weren't any VNese, Laotian or Cambodian in the West at the time Sifu. If there were, I bet there'll be a couple to will either send fund back to terrorists or carrying it out over here.

Heard somewhere that most of the funding the IRA received, funds they use to carry out terrorist acts on British soil, came from Boston, Mas.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> You know what Nazi Germany did to the Jews and other "undesirables" right?
> 
> Jews are said to be non-assimilating, ghetto dwelling, money grubbing, parasitic blah blah... All because their religion is this and that; as evidenced by their look and physical features.
> 
> That's very different from what Muslims are being classified right now?




How many terrorist acts did Jews carry out in Germany before the Nazis ?


----------



## noco (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> You
> 
> you want to have a serious debate about some wackos pie in the sky dream to have succession in western Sydney?
> 
> If you think that would happen you are just as crazy as him




It has already happened in some UK and USA towns where Sharia law has been introduced and a  Christian or an infidel dare not enter.


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> How many terrorist acts did Jews carry out in Germany before the Nazis ?




As far as I know, none. 

Still they were classified as parasites.

There's even a register for crimes committed by Jews and other impure bred. Trump is having one right now. I mean, he's a bit overt about it but there's a list and a register for some decade now.

Read headline today that some Muslim students in the US want to talk to their congressman. Part of seeing their man in congress is to answer whether or not they (being Muslim) beats up their wife or not.


----------



## Tisme (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> our family trees are so large, and so similar, it's not a bad claim, its just stating a fact that abuse happened in the past and so is part of  all our family trees, I mean if you are going back 10 generations, almost all of us here are cousins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Are actually being serious?


----------



## Tisme (6 March 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Just one last thing and then I will leave it,
> 
> That couple from 1780 that Tisme, is proud to have as a ancestors is most likely an ancestor to 1 out of 5 Australias, and a guy that beat his wife from that generation that Tisme wouldn't want to admit is an ancestor is also ancestor to 1 out of 5 Australians.
> 
> This is an interesting video on the topic.





LOL you really have a case of it don't you


----------



## Tisme (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> As far as I know, none.
> 
> Still they were classified as parasites.
> 
> ...





Even Shakespeare had a crack at them in the Merchant of Venice. Their religion is their culture and they have well known habits that s4it the mob.


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Even Shakespeare had a crack at them in the Merchant of Venice. Their religion is their culture and they have well known habits that s4it the mob.




You know it's no longer fashionable to beat up on the Jews right?

Muslims are fair game; Brown and yellow folks we understand. Not the Jews man.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Muslims are fair game; Brown and yellow folks we understand. Not the Jews man.




As I said before, the Jews are not committing or planning terrorist acts on our soil and to my knowledge never have done.

The Muslims on the other hand have had quite a few terrorist acts foiled that could have caused a lot of damage if successful. 

That's not a reason to villify every Muslim, but it is a reason to be very careful about who we let come here.


----------



## Value Collector (6 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> LOL you really have a case of it don't you




I just have a basic understanding of math, and can use it to see through bogus claims.

Do you not understand Math? or was your family just full of incest? Because unless you are a lier you have no other options.

"Family history back to 1600's" hahaha, sorry I broke your heart with simply math.


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> As I said before, the Jews are not committing or planning terrorist acts on our soil and to my knowledge never have done.
> 
> The Muslims on the other hand have had quite a few terrorist acts foiled that could have caused a lot of damage if successful.
> 
> That's not a reason to villify every Muslim, but it is a reason to be very careful about who we let come here.




Yes. We are being careful. 

Not sure why you think we just let anyone into Australia. 

It's almost impossible for a person from a poor country to even get a tourist visa, so forget about any refugee or humanitarian being settled in Australia. It takes years of vetting and a small miracle to be permitted into Australia on humanitarian visas.

And that's fair enough.


----------



## wayneL (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yes. We are being careful.
> 
> Not sure why you think we just let anyone into Australia.
> 
> ...




The current government is being careful,  a Labor/Watermelon administration would open the spigots again.

And that's not fair enough,  its irresponsible and cultural vandalism.


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> The current government is being careful,  a Labor/Watermelon administration would open the spigots again.
> 
> And that's not fair enough,  its irresponsible and cultural vandalism.




Have you lost your cultural identity to any of the coloured folks beside the Muslims?

It's still pretty White and as Australian as can be I reckon Sifu.

People of minority background will, as a matter of survival and employment, adapt to the dominant culture. That applies to any country.

Do they really need to completely assimilate, completely forget their cultural heritage? Not really.

From personal experience, I'd be very wary of those who forget their heritage too fast on purpose. They tend to do well though, amusing the White people does have its rewards  

But yea, I know a few Asian who actually change their nippy name to a completely English name - surname included. One was married to a Korean, the Korean wasn't "worthy" enough because he's a poor working salesman while she's a lawyer. 

Divorced the guy but wanted to keep his surname because apparently a Korean surname is more valuable than a Vietnamese one.   Then got married to a proper White guy, same profession, and assimilation complete. 

So be careful what you ask for. Might end up with a bunch of fakers whose value is not so much your value, but simply going along to get along.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Have you lost your cultural identity to any of the coloured folks beside the Muslims?




Oh yes. A suburb near where I used to live is now overrun by people of Asian descent (Chinese, Koreans or others) and the street signs have been changed to a foreign language as have signs on shops. It's now difficult for non Asians to find their way around.


----------



## noco (6 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Are actually being serious?




OFF TOPIC


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh yes. A suburb near where I used to live is now overrun by people of Asian descent (Chinese, Koreans or others) and the street signs have been changed to a foreign language as have signs on shops. It's now difficult for non Asians to find their way around.




What suburb is that? I can google map it.

I've been to the ghettos and I'm telling you the street signs are still in English. How else will they read the map, right?

As to shop signs... they're selling to people who can read and speak that language. Might be a good idea that most of their potential customers know what business it is.

That and there's always English on the signages. I know because I've spent years and year doing sign writing with my dad.

Some signs have four languages. Chinese, VNese, Laotian and English.

As to them living close together... it's easier to do business that way. No grand plan to take over Australia, suburb by suburb. At least they haven't clued me in to that anyway.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> As to shop signs... they're selling to people who can read and speak that language. Might be a good idea that most of their potential customers know what business it is.




The official language of this country is English, they should learn to speak that, if they can't then it's a "sign" that we have to spend money hiring interpreters for them down at Centrelink.


----------



## luutzu (6 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The official language of this country is English, they should learn to speak that, if they can't then it's a "sign" that we have to spend money hiring interpreters for them down at Centrelink.




Have you read a standard VNese menu into its English translation? It will scare you from eating there.

Take "Bun Bo Hue"... English: Rice vermicelli in pork soup with sliced beef, pork, bloody jelly, spices (and MSG).

"Pho": Thick rice noodle with raw sliced beef, meat balls, more beef, beef soup (and MSG) 

Come on man, those on Centrelink know enough English from their other job that they do not work at at all to supplement welfare and lift their family above water a bit.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Have you read a standard VNese menu into its English translation? It will scare you from eating there.




Dunno man, what's Vietnamese for dog ?


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Dunno man, what's Vietnamese for dog ?




Ey, we're an equal-opportunity eater. 

Seriously though, dog is only sometime eaten by men when they drink. It's not a staple. And they do not eat their own dog either, it's farmed. Not sure how they could have their own dog, raised it, but then eat other dogs... anyway.

Recently heard that some VNese tourist came over and buy dog food from woolies thinking it's "dog food".
Dam savages.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Ey, we're an equal-opportunity eater.




So you eat cats as well ?


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So you eat cats as well ?




I never heard any one eating cats. 

Poor country man. Eat anything you can I guess.

A very nice street-food are the water snails. For about $AUD1 you can get a bow. Dip in fish sauce, ginger, chilly, a cool beer. Hard to beat. 

Tried some snail while in Paris and there's just no comparison. A dozen snail there costs about 20Euro, which is a lot of money. Came out and it's all drowned in butter.


----------



## wayneL (7 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Have you lost your cultural identity to any of the coloured folks beside the Muslims?
> 
> It's still pretty White and as Australian as can be I reckon Sifu.
> 
> ...



Let's not embellish to unilaterally transmogrify my point into something else, Grasshopper.

The thing with most Asians is they come here because they want what we've got. They bring their own flavour and keep elements of their own culture, but don't try to change ours. We willingly partake in it at our choice. They celebrate Chinese new year for example, and we have fun being part of that if we want to. Most Asians don't touch up our women or call them whores for showing a little cleavage, they don't want to set up their own system of law, and they don't become offended by Christmas and they don't have a problem shaking the hands of schoolgirls. etc etc

That's pretty cool IMO. It's symbiotic.

I will concede that most Muslims *at the moment* are pretty much the same and integrate the same way.

But even you, Grasshopper, must concede that Islam has elements within it that are at odds with the above values. They do want to change our culture even if against our will. They would wish to enforce Ramadan etc. They touch up our women and call them whores for showing a little cleavage, they do want to set up their own system of law, and they do become offended by Christmas and they do have a problem shaking the hands of schoolgirls.

....and that's not just us whitefella, it applies to you Asians too

So back at ya, Grasshopper. You should be careful what you wish for.


----------



## Tisme (7 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> ....and that's not just us whitefella, it applies to you Asians too




I think luutzu is more Australian than Asian.

In China the policy is to punish Islamic empire building by punishing radical behaviour and playing the victim. If there is a whiff of trying to spread the religion in the region they respond by:

enforcing bans on Ramadan
fining people ~$400 for wearing hijabs

There is an permanent outlaw on the prohibition of smoking, alcohol and halal food, with legislation enabling and demanding associated shopkeepers sell cigarettes, alcohol and non halal so they can't be bullied by religious nutters.

Of course there are stories of whole populations being long marched into obscurity.


----------



## Junior (7 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> They touch up our women and call them whores for showing a little cleavage, they do want to set up their own system of law, and they do become offended by Christmas and they do have a problem shaking the hands of schoolgirls.




I just don't see or experience any of this in Australia.  I've never, ever heard of anyone personally experiencing any of these occurrences here.  It just feels like a total fear campaign, media beat up.

Domestic violence, drink driving, meth addiction, youth unemployment in regional areas....these issues are much, much larger and more real (and worthy of attention) to me than this perceived threat that Sharia law is going to somehow be imposed on the 98% of Australians who are not of Muslim background.  How is Sharia law going to be imposed??  By whom and what army??  Are 'they' infiltrating our political system, military, police force?  No, no and no.

The likes of Andrew Bolt are thriving on this fear.....more people tuning in to hear his rantings, more votes for Pauline, selling more newspapers.  Is any of it real or are we so comfortable and wealthy in this country that we have nothing better to worry about?


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

Junior said:


> I just don't see or experience any of this in Australia. I've never, ever heard of anyone personally experiencing any of these occurrences here. It just feels like a total fear campaign, media beat up.




As much as you can believe the Daily Telegraph, read this.

If it's true it's shocking.



> *Sacked Punchbowl High School principal had Muslims-only plan: police*
> YONI BASHAN, The Sunday Telegraph
> March 5, 2017 7:37am
> Subscriber only
> ...




Another Murdoch publication, but one with a high reputation saying basically the same as the Telegraph.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...p/news-story/b41b4e1c1dd9205d19162836c2173179


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> Let's not embellish to unilaterally transmogrify my point into something else, Grasshopper.
> 
> The thing with most Asians is they come here because they want what we've got. They bring their own flavour and keep elements of their own culture, but don't try to change ours. We willingly partake in it at our choice. They celebrate Chinese new year for example, and we have fun being part of that if we want to. Most Asians don't touch up our women or call them whores for showing a little cleavage, they don't want to set up their own system of law, and they don't become offended by Christmas and they don't have a problem shaking the hands of schoolgirls. etc etc
> 
> ...




I have never seen or heard such things being done by "them" Sifu. And I live among them barbarians.

If I don't know better, I'd reckon it's Uncle Rupee's way of selling papers, entertain his readers with horror stories, and sell wars on Muslims around the world.

My house was broken into by a couple of Muslim guys, while we were in bed. That was scary. 

But there are thieves, they have them in all cultures. Can't blame others for what some who look like them do.


----------



## wayneL (7 March 2017)

Junior said:


> I just don't see or experience any of this in Australia.  I've never, ever heard of anyone personally experiencing any of these occurrences here.  It just feels like a total fear campaign, media beat up.
> 
> Domestic violence, drink driving, meth addiction, youth unemployment in regional areas....these issues are much, much larger and more real (and worthy of attention) to me than this perceived threat that Sharia law is going to somehow be imposed on the 98% of Australians who are not of Muslim background.  How is Sharia law going to be imposed??  By whom and what army??  Are 'they' infiltrating our political system, military, police force?  No, no and no.
> 
> The likes of Andrew Bolt are thriving on this fear.....more people tuning in to hear his rantings, more votes for Pauline, selling more newspapers.  Is any of it real or are we so comfortable and wealthy in this country that we have nothing better to worry about?



Perhaps not so much here yet,  but it is something that happens on Sydney beaches.

In Europe it iscommon and well documented.


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> I think luutzu is more Australian than Asian.
> 
> In China the policy is to punish Islamic empire building by punishing radical behaviour and playing the victim. If there is a whiff of trying to spread the religion in the region they respond by:
> 
> ...




Punishing the radicals then play the victims... sounds familiar. See how all similar we all are? 

Ask any properly educated Chinese and they'll tell you that China has never, ever, invaded any country. That the Great Wall was built to keep the barbarians out, not to expand the empire, I mean, country. 

And they say that with a straight face too. I mean, there's over 100 ethnic minorities among the Han Chinese, but China had never invaded anyone.


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> Perhaps not so much here yet,  but it is something that happens on Sydney beaches.
> 
> In Europe it iscommon and well documented.





With time spent beating their many wives, then cheat welfare before going to Mosques to pray five times a day... where's the time and money to plan on taking over the world Sifu?

Saudi Arabia and practically all ME emirates are ruled by religious nuts with no regards for human rights or freedom or anything. Guess what world liberator and democracy builder are best friends with them? Selling them arms, training their troops, taking the jets for a spin and dropping a few bombs to show them how it's done... 

The current "war on terror" is not about Christian value, clash of civilisation or good vs evil. It's just old fashioned imperial domination and looting.

And these looting does not benefit the plebs back home anyway. Look at the US... they're sending in poor working class kids with little hope beside joining the army and if survive, maybe get a discounted education [they've since remove the GI Bill to offer free education, I think].

Then spent hundreds of billions of taxpayers money, taking those cash out of funds for education, health, road, clean water... Then use them billions as giveaways to arm merchants and war profiteers like Haliburton.

Kill a bunch of people, send in private corporations to take the oil, keep the profit but pay no taxes.

If we're being realistic and forget about the hundreds of thousands being dead, millions in famine and all living in constant fear in warzones... the plebs in the empire are paying a very high price in selling their soul.

Lao Tzu [?] says, be careful and change your ways lest you end up where you're going.
Sun Tzu says, there has never been an example of a country benefiting from protracted warfare.

So our master planners in the West are thinking it's sensible, and obviously moral, to spend over a trillion a year for the next hundred years to "fight evil" and "bring freedom" to Arabs we mainly hate. 

Sounds good, let's do that! Freeeeedommmmmmm. Yea!

----------

Know what was the last straw that broke the Qing Empire's back? From mighty Qing ruling over most of Asia to being so sick they can't even stand a few gunboats from the Barbarians? 

A few generations of corruption and looting from the public. Sending most of the people into poverty, hunger and rebellion. Then when the barbarians came, the Son of Heaven thought to maybe change its way but grandma and her eunuchs thought otherwise so she uses money for the Navy to rennovate her Summer Place and necessities like carving a double decker pleasure boat out of one piece of marble.

Anyway


----------



## wayneL (7 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> With time spent beating their many wives, then cheat welfare before going to Mosques to pray five times a day... where's the time and money to plan on taking over the world Sifu?
> 
> Saudi Arabia and practically all ME emirates are ruled by religious nuts with no regards for human rights or freedom or anything. Guess what world liberator and democracy builder are best friends with them? Selling them arms, training their troops, taking the jets for a spin and dropping a few bombs to show them how it's done...
> 
> ...



Im not without sympathy to your point of view ther,  but all that is a completely separate issue,  Grasshopper.... a red herring drawn across the topic of the thread.


----------



## noco (7 March 2017)

This what is happening in Birmingham UK and will happen here in Australia if not stopped  by a strong leader.


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

noco said:


> This what is happening in Birmingham UK and will happen here in Australia if not stopped  by a strong leader.





He look like a Muslim and seem to be against ISIS and terrorism. So.... all Muslims are terrorists? 

He seem to be saying that wife shouldn't be beaten or force to stay at home. Sooo... all Muslims are wife beaters? 

Oh, you're trying to say that even a Muslim recognise the evilness of "their people" and their "religion" so called. 


One thing he might have conveniently left out about why young Muslim kids might be radicalised, beside their religion and possibly defective gene prone to violence of course... Muslims aren't well represented at universities, over-represented in prison population; living in ghettos and ghettos are where most terrorists comes out of. 

So recognising those facts, it's pretty amazing that he just don't link or think that maybe it's possible kids in such hopeless condition might be vulnerable to terrorism. 

That's not to excuse it, just a fact that alienated people; people who tend to be locked up, have no job, can't afford an education, being seen as a potential terrorist anyway... that kind of factors might easily take them over into the dark side.

Give them a bit of education, a job with a microphone and who knows, they too might start beating up on poor impoverish Muslims.


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> Im not without sympathy to your point of view ther,  but all that is a completely separate issue,  Grasshopper.... a red herring drawn across the topic of the thread.




How is that a red herring?

It just proves that "we" don't go over there liberating anybody. Just imperial adventures. Nothing to do with good vs evil (where we're the good guys of course).

It shows that this war on terrorism isn't about the West vs Islam either. That as long as the despots and tyrants do what we like, they're our best friends. The moment they figured the Chinese or the Russians might give them a better deal, we take them out. And we take out tyrants regardless of their religion or colour. 

Now... the Muslims who managed to escape that kind of dictatorship and religious nutjobberies, or who are lucky enough to be born into a somewhat free society... maybe they prefer to live free rather than being forced and butchered by religious and tyrannical nutjobs.

Maybe?


----------



## Tisme (7 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> I have never seen or heard such things being done by "them" Sifu. And I live among them barbarians.
> 
> If I don't know better, I'd reckon it's Uncle Rupee's way of selling papers, entertain his readers with horror stories, and sell wars on Muslims around the world.
> 
> ...





You don't remember these:?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> You don't remember these:?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes




I haven't seen any comment by the apologists about the Punchbowl high school affair either.


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> You don't remember these:?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes




I don't keep track of crimes and what the criminal's ethnicity is.

I know we live in the era of Trump where it sounds like a great idea to register crimes committed by Muslims and other (non-White) ethnic groups. Seems a bit racist to me.


----------



## luutzu (7 March 2017)

Guess why King Bibi recently drop by the Southern Land.


----------



## Junior (8 March 2017)

The Punchbowl affair and Sydney gang rapes are rancid crimes.  No one here would defend or support those acts in any way.

You can post endless links to crimes committed by ethnic/religious group of all kinds in Australia.  It doesn't mean cutting off immigration from specific countries or banning certain religions, just because there are a very small percentage of criminals or extremists amongst their ranks.

Deport, lock up, punish and shutdown criminals and extremists.  

If we target and discriminate against all Muslims we are alienating half a million people....and potentially driving more individuals into the hands of extremists.  Seems counter-productive.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 March 2017)

Junior said:


> You can post endless links to crimes committed by ethnic/religious group of all kinds in Australia.




So what are your links to crimes committed by religions other than Islam in Australia ?

As far as immigration is concerned, we already have enough people in this country, infrastructure is strained, wages are falling, full time jobs are disappearing.

There is no need to import any more people, except that vested interests (migrants wanting family reunions) keep on harping about continually having to prove our multicultural credentials.


----------



## noco (8 March 2017)

These Muslims are not leaving their country of origin for a better life, They are invading the Western World.

I warned about this 7 to 10 years ago that Muslims were infiltrating our country and was accused of being a racist...I was ridiculed and two of posts were deleted.
How correct I was at the time and again now.

Wake up Australia...Get rid of Turnbull he is sleeping with the enemy.

https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/fr...sa?source=feed_text&story_id=1902232113341031


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2017)

noco said:


> These Muslims are not leaving their country of origin for a better life, They are invading the Western World.
> 
> I warned about this 7 to 10 years ago that Muslims were infiltrating our country and was accused of being a racist...I was ridiculed and two of posts were deleted.
> How correct I was at the time and again now.
> ...




A whole lot of effort and, apparently, brain power, went into all that stupid.

btw, what's wrong with squat toilet? It's much more hygenic than the sitting ones.

Aren't you worried that you might use a public toilet right after a Muslim?


----------



## noco (8 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> A whole lot of effort and, apparently, brain power, went into all that stupid.
> 
> btw, what's wrong with squat toilet? It's much more hygenic than the sitting ones.
> 
> Aren't you worried that you might use a public toilet right after a Muslim?




OFF TOPIC......FFS.....What has bloody squat toilets got to do with Muslim invasion......Just another one of your hair brain waffles to divert attention away from the real topic.
I am awake to you Luu.


----------



## Junior (8 March 2017)

noco said:


> These Muslims are not leaving their country of origin for a better life, They are invading the Western World.
> 
> I warned about this 7 to 10 years ago that Muslims were infiltrating our country and was accused of being a racist...I was ridiculed and two of posts were deleted.




Sorry, I can't help myself!


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2017)

noco said:


> OFF TOPIC......FFS.....What has bloody squat toilets got to do with Muslim invasion......Just another one of your hair brain waffles to divert attention away from the real topic.
> I am awake to you Luu.




I actually scanned through that Facebook page you linked above.

There's a post, with picture, of a squat toilet. That it's bad and have no place in Australia.

So you tell me what does that toilet have to do with being real Australian and our value and whatever.


----------



## noco (8 March 2017)

Junior said:


> Sorry, I can't help myself!
> 
> View attachment 70255




I feel sorry for you because I cannot see any relevant information which refers to the subject.

If you can't help yourself, then you seek help from outside your circle.


----------



## noco (8 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> I actually scanned through that Facebook page you linked above.
> 
> There's a post, with picture, of a squat toilet. That it's bad and have no place in Australia.
> 
> So you tell me what does that toilet have to do with being real Australian and our value and whatever.




Well Luu I did the same thing from start to finish and I did not see one.......Anyway what is the big deal with squat toilets?........They are common in India and Fiji.

I hope you read all the other scripts.


----------



## Tisme (8 March 2017)

noco said:


> .......Anyway what is the big deal with squat toilets?........They are common in India and Fiji.
> 
> .




and Italy, especially at the road stops


----------



## MrChow (8 March 2017)

What a way to spend your life, angry at a billion people you've never met.

Maybe you're scared because you know how much hatred you have and assume everyone else has it too, imagine if there's a billion people who hate you as much as you hate them!

What a disturbing world you create within your own mind, much more so than 99% of actual real life.


----------



## noco (8 March 2017)

MrChow said:


> What a way to spend your life, angry at a billion people you've never met.
> 
> Maybe you're scared because you know how much hatred you have and assume everyone else has it too, imagine if there's a billion people who hate you as much as you hate them!
> 
> What a disturbing world you create within your own mind, much more so than 99% of actual real life.




Man you are so naïve......Do you not believe there is more hatred of the Western World by Muslims?

Would you be prepared to take in one or two Muslim refugees into your home?.....Feed them, clothe them and accommodate them for two years or more?

Show me how patriotic you are to the Muslim community by answering YES.

https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lis...s-is-not-racism-agree-disagree?source=sharing


----------



## MrChow (8 March 2017)

I do tutoring at a primary school that has kids of all different backgrounds, I talk to their parents too.

If any one of the Muslim kids / families were homeless they could stay with me.


----------



## noco (9 March 2017)

MrChow said:


> I do tutoring at a primary school that has kids of all different backgrounds, I talk to their parents too.
> 
> If any one of the Muslim kids / families were homeless they could stay with me.




Good for you taking in a kid but about a couple of refugees from overseas?

Maybe from Syria or Nigeria


----------



## wayneL (9 March 2017)

The pollyannas are totally missing the point here. 

When i lived in Melbourne my best mate was a muslim... top bloke and a lovely family. I have talked about them here before. one of our favourite shookeepers when we were in Londinium was an Iraqi lady who wrote Hijab. I loved her, she was intelligent and beautiful in both mind and body and we had the *best* conversations on all sorts of stuff.

I certainly we all have Muslims like that in our lives an i certainly don't begrudge them being here.

But do we want, neo nazi Germans in our country? Maoist Chinese? Stalinist Soviets? Aggrieved Serb and Croats having pitched battles?

Sharia supporting, proselytising by force, subjugation of women type Muslims?

No we feckin don't and its time leftists stop supporting them as a matter of strict ideology. 

Thete can be harmony with a dominant,  benevolent culture, such as ours, with several minorities of *our choosing*.

However, stupid ideological positions and pandering to minorities on that basis will only give cause for the rise of the extreme right and civil unrest.

Wake up people.


----------



## Junior (9 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> The pollyannas are totally missing the point here.
> 
> When i lived in Melbourne my best mate was a muslim... top bloke and a lovely family. I have talked about them here before. one of our favourite shookeepers when we were in Londinium was an Iraqi lady who wrote Hijab. I loved her, she was intelligent and beautiful in both mind and body and we had the *best* conversations on all sorts of stuff.
> 
> ...




I agree with the above.  So what are potential solutions?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2017)

Junior said:


> I agree with the above.  So what are potential solutions?




Don't take any more. 

Weed out the hardliners already here and deport them if possible. 

Dilute the religion by not giving public money for religious schools.

Eliminate Family Tax Benefits after the third child.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

noco said:


> Well Luu I did the same thing from start to finish and I did not see one.......Anyway what is the big deal with squat toilets?........They are common in India and Fiji.
> 
> I hope you read all the other scripts.




here we go.

It's way down, between Hanson hugging the flag and Muslim cheating welfare.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> The pollyannas are totally missing the point here.
> 
> When i lived in Melbourne my best mate was a muslim... top bloke and a lovely family. I have talked about them here before. one of our favourite shookeepers when we were in Londinium was an Iraqi lady who wrote Hijab. I loved her, she was intelligent and beautiful in both mind and body and we had the *best* conversations on all sorts of stuff.
> 
> ...




No, we don't want those proselytising, abusive, angry mob hell bend on forcing their ideology of good moral code on others whether they like it or not. 

We want good old fashion value of freedom, my way or else!

We want that good old benevolence and kindness, the type that tells refugees to go fark themselves, stay in their warzones and fight! But fight not like ISIS. Fight against hunger, famine and the usual things that toughens up a man, or a child, or an elderly person cribbled by age with no food or medicine. 

Uh yea!


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> The pollyannas are totally missing the point here.
> 
> When i lived in Melbourne my best mate was a muslim... top bloke and a lovely family. I have talked about them here before. one of our favourite shookeepers when we were in Londinium was an Iraqi lady who wrote Hijab. I loved her, she was intelligent and beautiful in both mind and body and we had the *best* conversations on all sorts of stuff.
> 
> ...





Do you remember the welcome mat we gave the POMS? The migrant hostels, the Nissan huts, taking their passport for two years, mandatory work, making them pay for their way back home....yep we coddled them just like we do today, except today we are bigots, which apparently is wrong.


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> No, we don't want those proselytising, abusive, angry mob hell bend on *forcing their ideology of good moral code* on others whether they like it or not.
> 
> !




how about *forcing their ideology of bad moral code ? *You know, the code that commands obedience of worshippers to cut journalists and archaeologist's heads off, blow holiday makers up in clubs, to destroy early civilisation treasures, rape girls, enslave towns, deny democratic rights- freedom of association- freedom of religion, administer corporal punishment on women and children, stone raped muslim women to death, wound/mame/kill muslim women who converse with men other than husbands and who husbands allow, etc ad nauseam.

Of course it isn't their fault it's the Catholics of the past, they did it so therefore it's forgiveable in our secular society. It's probably Bill Shorten's fault actually ..... ask anyone who follows the LNP religion slavishly.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> how about *forcing their ideology of bad moral code ? *You know, the code that commands obedience of worshippers to cut journalists and archaeologist's heads off, blow holiday makers up in clubs, to destroy early civilisation treasures, rape girls, enslave towns, deny democratic rights- freedom of association- freedom of religion, administer corporal punishment on women and children, stone raped muslim women to death, wound/mame/kill muslim women who converse with men other than husbands and who husbands allow, etc ad nauseam.
> 
> Of course it isn't their fault it's the Catholics of the past, they did it so therefore it's forgiveable in our secular society. It's probably Bill Shorten's fault actually ..... ask anyone who follows the LNP religion slavishly.




You talking about ISIS or Muslims?

Should we compare all White people to the KKK? Or the Nazi? 

Are all White and Christian people be grouped into the same camp as those crazy Christian nutjobs in the US with their own TV show? Ones who says things like a hurricane is God's way of telling Americans He does not tolerate gays being given their civil rights.


Strange how some who loathes Islam and Muslims because it treat Muslim women badly, then in the same breathe go about bashing all Muslims - men, women, children, all of them.

Muslims man, they're vile. Bashing their wives, molesting their children, wanting to take over other people's country to bring about their Sharia Law. That is so uncivilised like us who bashes all Muslims on our soil, then for fun, fly half way around the world bomb the crap out of practically all Muslim countries so that they can live in freedom and democracy - just like us (except without roads, most bridges, much power, water, medicine, a roof over their heads... all because we've blown them to bits, for a good cause you understand).


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> You talking about ISIS or Muslims?




ISIS is Muslim... apparently in it's purist form



luutzu said:


> Should we compare all White people to the KKK? Or the Nazi?
> 
> A




No, two or more wrongs don't make a right. I thought I shut the gate on that method of rebuttal via the Bill Shorten (tongue in cheek) comment?

We are talking about Muslims which apparently your rose coloured glasses only sees as oppressed Vietnamese boat people?


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> ISIS is Muslim... apparently in it's purist form
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Saudi Arabia is ISIS that made it. We bombing Saudi Arabia or they're our best friend and ally? 

Yes, Muslims are a special kind of evil. They are all bad, parasitic blah blah who will crawl into our daughter's bed at night, rape our women, take from our hard work and life's savings.

They are not at all like the Jews when they were blamed and beaten up in pretty much the same way - the Nazi was dead wrong about the Jews; we're obviously spot on about the Muslims.

Same with Pol Pot, he was dead wrong about "capitalist" and educated, city-dwelling parasites ruining the country and should deserve death by hard labour or a ball over the head.


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Saudi Arabia is ISIS that made it. We bombing Saudi Arabia or they're our best friend and ally?
> 
> Yes, Muslims are a special kind of evil. They are all bad, parasitic blah blah who will crawl into our daughter's bed at night, rape our women, take from our hard work and life's savings.
> 
> ...




I don't know why some get away with it and some don't, but I know there is no such thing as a Quagga Mulsim, a Quagga Roman Catholic, et al you either is or you ain't.

Bigotry is so much more enjoyable when you are free of religious, political, racial bonds that bind and confine ... don't you think? You know like the Australian Commonwealth Constitution tries to explain as bedrocks for a society that likes football meat pies kangaroos and holden cars.


----------



## Tink (9 March 2017)

What did Catholics try to blow up in Australia?

We were told ISIS had targetted the army and St Pauls at Christmas -- which is based on Jesus CHRIST.

Just curious.


----------



## McLovin (9 March 2017)

Tink said:


> What did Catholics try to blow up in Australia?




Prince Alfred. There's one from the archives! 

To be fair I think it was a gun not a bomb.


----------



## Tink (9 March 2017)

Is this it?

http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/ifhaa/history/princealfred.htm


----------



## McLovin (9 March 2017)

Tink said:


> Is this it?
> 
> http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/ifhaa/history/princealfred.htm




That's the one, Tink.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> I don't know why some get away with it and some don't, but I know there is no such thing as a Quagga Mulsim, a Quagga Roman Catholic, et al you either is or you ain't.
> 
> Bigotry is so much more enjoyable when you are free of religious, political, racial bonds that bind and confine ... don't you think? You know like the Australian Commonwealth Constitution tries to explain as bedrocks for a society that likes football meat pies kangaroos and holden cars.




People are a bit more complicated than whatever convenient label and stereotype some of us want to put on them.

Might surprise some of us that sometime people are just unique individual whose character and development came about through a combination of the interaction between their physiological, social, cultural upbringing.

Though it's a lot easier to think that if they're Muslim they must be terrorist or a domestic abuser or both. If they're Irish they must be drunk terrorist with a dozen kids somewhere.


I don't think bigotry is ever enjoyable. Even for those who muck around in it. 

Bigots tend to be people who got shafted by their own gov't but just can't believe it. So they buy into the lies that it must be the "other" poor and equally screwed people that did it to them.

So life is not $50B worst off because their own "representative" thought to not take $50B from businesses; it has gotten worst because Muslims and refugees are taking a couple of dollars from the treasury.


----------



## dutchie (9 March 2017)

New Punchbowl Boys High School principal ‘threatened’

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/hig...d/news-story/76b24c395284db228350964c37cfac06

wakey wakey Australia


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2017)

dutchie said:


> New Punchbowl Boys High School principal ‘threatened’
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/hig...d/news-story/76b24c395284db228350964c37cfac06
> 
> wakey wakey Australia





Sorry, can't read that. Can you give a summary ?


----------



## dutchie (9 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry, can't read that. Can you give a summary ?



Robert Patruno, who started as principal of Punchbowl Boys High School last Friday, was allegedly visited by the pair on Monday.

“We’re gonna get you, we’re going to f. k you up, you dog. F. k you,” they told him.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2017)

From the ABC.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...t-new-punchbowl-high-school-principal/8339556

The education Department should just shut this school down and disperse the students around other schools in the area.

This is disgraceful and another warning of things to come.


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> People are a bit more complicated than whatever convenient label and stereotype some of us want to put on them.




They label themselves the moment they put the coat of their chosen offshelf religion on ... not anyone else. If they embrace it they own it




luutzu said:


> Though it's a lot easier to think that if they're Muslim they must be terrorist or a domestic abuser or both. If they're Irish they must be drunk terrorist with a dozen kids somewhere.




Deeds ...and yes the Irish have nothing to be proud of when it comes to blowing people up... but we aren't importing Sein Fein enmass either




luutzu said:


> I don't think bigotry is ever enjoyable. Even for those who muck around in it.




Yes it is. You are bigotted to some of the attitudes here. The word has been hijacked by those unwilling to stand 100% for what's right, right is right and doesn't need to be made half wrong to be acceptable to those who just want what's right. (tongue twister lol)[/QUOTE]


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> From the ABC.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...t-new-punchbowl-high-school-principal/8339556
> 
> ...




Nursery of hate and division


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> They label themselves the moment they put the coat of their chosen offshelf religion on ... not anyone else. If they embrace it they own it
> 
> Deeds ...and yes the Irish have nothing to be proud of when it comes to blowing people up... but we aren't importing Sein Fein enmass either
> 
> Yes it is. You are bigotted to some of the attitudes here. The word has been hijacked by those unwilling to stand 100% for what's right, right is right and doesn't need to be made half wrong to be acceptable to those who just want what's right. (tongue twister lol)



[/QUOTE]

Come on McGee, I know you're only having fun. That and trying to make up for having been young, foolish and hippy dippy enough to have taken in a few orphaned refugees... no doubt to the horror of a few of your relatives up a couple of imbreded branch.


As to the Irish and Sein Fein... I heard a large number of them Irish in America didn't import, but export and finance the IRA.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Nursery of hate and division




The former principal looks pretty White to me. Griffith is Irish right?

The student and community seem to like him a whole lot. I guess they got to him and radicalised the poor bugger. 

Maybe the issue is a whole lot more complicated than the media tend to summarised it.


----------



## noco (9 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> The former principal looks pretty White to me. Griffith is Irish right?
> 
> The student and community seem to like him a whole lot. I guess they got to him and radicalised the poor bugger.
> 
> Maybe the issue is a whole lot more complicated than the media tend to summarised it.





WAY OFF TOPIC.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

noco said:


> WAY OFF TOPIC.




I did say that them sneeky Muslims probably got to and radicalised a White Irish Australian principal. 

That's in tune with Islam being evil, right?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> I did say that them sneeky Muslims probably got to and radicalised a White Irish Australian principal.
> 
> That's in tune with Islam being evil, right?




Precisely. It's what an evil ideology tries to do to get a foothold.

You may be saying it with a wink, but it's real and it happened and it will again.


----------



## noco (9 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> I did say that them sneeky Muslims probably got to and radicalised a White Irish Australian principal.
> 
> That's in tune with Islam being evil, right?




I did not see any reference to what you are raving on about..

Still OFF TOPIC.


----------



## Tisme (9 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Come on McGee, I know you're only having fun. That and trying to make up for having been young, foolish and hippy dippy enough to have taken in a few orphaned refugees...
> 
> .





That's below the belt. Why would you throw that at me.

I have a party coming up and it looks like my daughter and I are the only white people. Around 15 viet, two chinese two albanian muslims and three gayboys. Should be a hoot with me dad dancing and Doogie (viet) on the bbq.....mmmm crabs and prawns


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Precisely. It's what an evil ideology tries to do to get a foothold.
> 
> You may be saying it with a wink, but it's real and it happened and it will again.




It's not going to happen because the moment it seem to, our dear representatives will fire and investigate the potential [Mosul] Candidate, send in a properly Australian principal to keep an eye on them. 

This time it's a deputy Juvenile Detention guy, next time it'll be a 3 star general.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> That's below the belt. Why would you throw that at me.
> 
> I have a party coming up and it looks like my daughter and I are the only white people. Around 15 viet, two chinese two albanian muslims and three gayboys. Should be a hoot with me dad dancing and Doogie (viet) on the bbq.....mmmm crabs and prawns




You reap what you sow 

Wait, you adopted 20 kids? 

A bbq sounds good to me. Will start one as soon as the rain down here stop. I don't remember it ever being wet this continuously for three weeks. Any heavier drops and it'd be the weather advancing over Australia ahead of its tropical barbarians.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's not going to happen because the moment it seem to, our dear representatives will fire and investigate the potential [Mosul] Candidate, send in a properly Australian principal to keep an eye on them.
> 
> This time it's a deputy Juvenile Detention guy, next time it'll be a 3 star general.




They should just shut the whole place down.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> They should just shut the whole place down.





If you shut it down, you'd splinter all the cells. Would be harder to track them.


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

An interesting poll
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascism


----------



## luutzu (10 March 2017)

noco said:


> An interesting poll
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascism




I thought fascism mean when the state and corporation merge into one. All at the expense of democratic rule, civil rights, worker's rights.

How long have we been told that what's good for big business is great for the country? Taxing corporations? Outrageous! Tax cuts for businesses while the country "can't afford anything", obviously!

New wikileak reveal the CIA can hack into any smart phones, smart tv, pc etc. around the world. They can record and monitor households even when the devices are switched off.

Of course Apple and Samsung have no idea about these backdoors


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> I thought fascism mean when the state and corporation merge into one. All at the expense of democratic rule, civil rights, worker's rights.
> 
> How long have we been told that what's good for big business is great for the country? Taxing corporations? Outrageous! Tax cuts for businesses while the country "can't afford anything", obviously!
> 
> ...




Instead of saying merge, you should be saying commandeered by a dictator without compensation....I think that is more like it.


----------



## Tisme (10 March 2017)

Here you go


----------



## noco (10 March 2017)

Is this what Islamic religion is all about or should be classified as barbaric.

Whom on this forum would allow genital mutilation of their daughter by two disgraceful Muslim men?

How painful and embarrassing for that poor girl...No anesthetic or sedation......How cruel is this?


----------



## noco (11 March 2017)

noco said:


> Is this what Islamic religion is all about or should be classified as barbaric.
> 
> Whom on this forum would allow genital mutilation of their daughter by two disgraceful Muslim men?
> 
> How painful and embarrassing for that poor girl...No anesthetic or sedation......How cruel is this?





I viewed that video and I do hope others did before it was removed.

It was  a callous that should have shocked any viewer.


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2017)

noco said:


> Instead of saying merge, you should be saying commandeered by a dictator without compensation....I think that is more like it.




Not commandeered noco. That's communism. Or Lenin's, China's, VN's kind of communism anyway.

Fascism is when the state and corporations work together, voluntarily, to serve each other's interests.

It's not that accurate to say that the state work with the corporations though. More like the corporation owning the state and just put their own people in there to fool the masses.

Look up Nazi Germany... Henry Ford was given its highest civilian honor. Hitler was inspired by Ford and so have VW built - for the people.

Then there's Coke and its Fanta; IBM and its punch cards to more efficiently organise the Jews into which concentration camp; there are countless other corporations making presentations to the Third Reich about how much more efficient their gas oven is etc. etc.

Where are we today? In this most civilised, most free, most democratic of civilisations? 

Bloody bombing 7 countries into rubble, all at once. Forcing millions into refugee camps, millions more on the edge of famine, a couple of millions dead and blown to pieces... and what do you hear from our free press? 

Muslims are evil. Freeeeeeedoooommmmmmmm... They are going to kill all of us! So we better go over there to kill them!


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2017)

noco said:


> I viewed that video and I do hope others did before it was removed.
> 
> It was  a callous that should have shocked any viewer.




Give it a break noco.

As if you give a dam about those kids. 

How could you when you're out there making the case that every Muslim are savages and ought to be deported, killed before they kill us.

There are Muslim refugees, fleeing warzones and famine. Do you think they ought to be help or be sent back to where they came from?

When has war ever kill any innocent people, right?

A leaked pentagon report showed that the Pentagon itself know that 90% of those killed by their drone strikes are civilians.

That's 9 out of 10 people killed being innocent civilian.

That's the original Roman definition of decimate.


----------



## noco (11 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Give it a break noco.
> 
> As if you give a dam about those kids.
> 
> ...




Man oh man how you have been sucked in...Of course I give a dam about those kids......I asked you and others on this forum would you approve of your daughter's genitals being mutilated?


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2017)

noco said:


> Man oh man how you have been sucked in...Of course I give a dam about those kids......I asked you and others on this forum would you approve of your daughter's genitals being mutilated?




Why do you think others would want any child or people be harm? Who the heck condone that kind of stuff?

But you don't show that to tell the world how poor those kids are being treated. You show it as another example of how vile all Muslims are.

That noco, is not caring for those kids, it's using their suffering to further your idea of Muslims and what ought to be done about them.

Who knows, maybe you're innocent of all that. You just want to fight for justice and good moral value. It just happen that good moral value mean having to kill millions of Muslims where they sleep.


----------



## noco (11 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Why do you think others would want any child or people be harm? Who the heck condone that kind of stuff?
> 
> But you don't show that to tell the world how poor those kids are being treated. You show it as another example of how vile all Muslims are.
> 
> ...




So you condone wife beating......Women being stoned to death for adultery.....Gays being thrown to their death from the highest building......Kids having their hands cut off for stealing.....People being beheaded because they have spoken out against the Koran.

Man you are really something to keep protecting Muslims and Islam.


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2017)

noco said:


> So you condone wife beating......Women being stoned to death for adultery.....Gays being thrown to their death from the highest building......Kids having their hands cut off for stealing.....People being beheaded because they have spoken out against the Koran.
> 
> Man you are really something to keep protecting Muslims and Islam.




Why would anyone condone that kind of stuff?

That's insane.

You might think you care for those unfortunate Muslims living under their idiotic despots and religious nuts. But not really noco. You're just using their misfortunes to your own end.

If you know that Muslims can be victims of other Muslim, why in the heck do you want to turn them away when they're seeking refuge?

If you think of the poor dying, stoned, hand-chopped Muslims... then why aren't you also speaking out about the millions who are starving to death right now from all these wars? The orphans, the kids whose body parts were blown clean off and classified as collateral damage? The destroyed home, the cancer caused by lethal weapons on new born.

You talk of free speech, how the ANZAC die for our freedom and values. 

Yea, free speech is kind of wasted when you use it to parrot what the gov't and its warmongers want you to parrot. 

To repeat propaganda, to never question authority... that's not free speech, that's just being useful idiots. People usually have to get paid to say nonsense, some of us does it for free.

Free speech is only useful when it's to fight for the weak, stand up against your gov't when it's doing wrong. 

Freedom and rights that has been won are there so you can question the authority without being dragged away and disappeared. 

You do not need any freedom and rights if you're going to just go along with the authority.


----------



## noco (11 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Why would anyone condone that kind of stuff?
> 
> That's insane.
> 
> ...




So why is it that I never hear you condemn Muslims and Islam....You do appear to jump to thier aid every time some condemnation is shown against Muslims and Islam.

I have spoken out before about juvenile deaths from starvation and other causes...I even gave you some figures of how many children die every minute....

What is the UN Human Rights Commission doing about i?......Bugger all......The UNHRC  would sooner get involved in  a trivia event for example  like the Darwin youth detention center.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

Some videos worth watching our patriotic Australians.

https://www.facebook.com/unitedpatriotsfront/


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> So why is it that I never hear you condemn Muslims and Islam....You do appear to jump to thier aid every time some condemnation is shown against Muslims and Islam.
> 
> I have spoken out before about juvenile deaths from starvation and other causes...I even gave you some figures of how many children die every minute....
> 
> What is the UN Human Rights Commission doing about i?......Bugger all......The UNHRC  would sooner get involved in  a trivia event for example  like the Darwin youth detention center.




Have you ever seen me defending ISIS? 

Have I ever explain away all the nasty stuff Muslims around the world has done? The ones you posts up and linked to? I didn't even bother to go and check out whether there's any truth to it, so took them at face value that yea, people do do nasty thing.

Anyway, it's wrong to accuse people who defend the innocent to be somehow condoning the violence those innocents does not commit.

Let say some crazy Muslims blame you for burning down their house because you're White and they think that's what White people do. Then I step in and tell that Muslim to get stuffed because you and I were debating whether Muslims are evil or not when his house was burnt.

Does it mean I condone arson?

-----------------

Where in the world do you get the idea that the UN have any power?

The UN does not have an army, or a navy, or money. Organisations without any of that have no power as a matter of course.

All it does, could do with the limited fund, is to raise the issue. Ask powers to play nice. If the big powers says no, then that's that.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> Some videos worth watching our patriotic Australians.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/unitedpatriotsfront/




How do you define a patriot?

Someone who drape a flag around themselves? Beat up on minorities?

A real patriot want their country to be better. Want their country to live up to that idealised version of itself. And a real patriot work towards that even if it mean criticising its own gov't and fellow citizens.

How would beating up Muslims, or anyone, going to make Australia great again?

People will learn what's good for them, turn White, speak trash about their own culture... that's the kind of citizens you want?

Will cutting welfare do it? Sacrifice a few handful of poor "White" aussies but at least you'd get the majority Muslims off. That's the way?

Anyone who beat innocent people, any leaders who spread hate so that they can give money to their friends and send young idealists to kill and die... that's not patriotism. That's just thuggery.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> How do you define a patriot?
> 
> Someone who drape a flag around themselves? Beat up on minorities?
> 
> ...




Luu, you certainly have a confused and mixed up mind.

A true Australian patriot does not burn the nations flag.

A true Australian patriot loves and will die for his country's freedom.

Could you call a Muslim a true Australian patriot when they want to bring in their own Sharia law, show disregard for our laws and kindle hatred of Christiana and infidels....Who preaches the word that they will take over Australia...who refuse to assimilate into our way of life....who mutilate the genitals of young girls...To refuse to sing our national anthem.......That is unpatriotic.......Muslims were taken into our care to get away from oppression in their own country.......If they want to continue on with their own religion, ideology or what ever you like to call it, then go back to the country you came from.......We do not require unpatriotic people in Australia...Just go.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> Luu, you certainly have a confused and mixed up mind.
> 
> A true Australian patriot does not burn the nations flag.
> 
> ...




Some years ago when I first went back to Vietnam, it really shocked me seeing how the common people live compare to the comrades and their Mercedes.

Poor kids were begging on the streets; the elderly have to walk miles and miles per day selling lottery to hopefully earn the equivalent of 50 cents AUD a day. Those lucky enough to have their health and can work, work long hours and earn just enough to feed themselves with a little savings left over.

Then there are the comrades and their family. Their houses have maids and driver; they eat so well that they have to go to the gym to lower their body fat and control cholesterol. 

Why is that? How could the leadership let that happen?

The war was over a long time ago; all the millions of death to fight for independence and equality... it's all just bs. The people sacrifice in their millions, the new "comrade" of theirs came to power, and take it all for themselves.

What this teaches, noco, is that a country can still be poor, inequality still exists, and the ethnic majority - be they the Viets or the White Aussies - would still be screwed by their own ethnic brethren ruling over them.

So beat up on minority, on the weak and defenseless all you like. You might think that's patriotism; might think that if it weren't for the barbarians "our" White brothers ruling us will then take care of us real good.

Good luck with that.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Some years ago when I first went back to Vietnam, it really shocked me seeing how the common people live compare to the comrades and their Mercedes.
> 
> Poor kids were begging on the streets; the elderly have to walk miles and miles per day selling lottery to hopefully earn the equivalent of 50 cents AUD a day. Those lucky enough to have their health and can work, work long hours and earn just enough to feed themselves with a little savings left over.
> 
> ...




If my memory serves me right we were chatting about Australian patriots, right?

Just another diversion away from the discussion....Your usual trait....You are so confused Luu.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> What this teaches, noco, is that a country can still be poor, inequality still exists, and the ethnic majority - be they the Viets or the White Aussies - would still be screwed by their own ethnic brethren ruling over them.




Contrast that with South Korea , where the "West" won. It's now one of the most vibrant and diversified economies in the world. So their President may be corrupt, but that doesn't change the fact that things are pretty good for the average citizen.

The US took over Japan after WW2. General MacArthur was in charge as I recall, and look at Japan now.

The US took over West Germany after WW2 and where is it now ? A great economy with its own government and highly respected in the world as is Japan.

I can't really see many signs of US imperialism there. They fixed a mess that wasn't caused by them and gave the citizens of Japan and Germany another chance.

I'm not sure Trump would do the same. I hope we don't have to find out.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Contrast that with South Korea , where the "West" won. It's now one of the most vibrant and diversified economies in the world. So their President may be corrupt, but that doesn't change the fact that things are pretty good for the average citizen.
> 
> The US took over Japan after WW2. General MacArthur was in charge as I recall, and look at Japan now.
> 
> ...




Rumpy, what has all that razzmatazz got to do with Australian patriotism.

At this stage you both seem to want have one leg each side of the fence.

You are as bad a Luu with your diversion away from the real issue.

Are you and Lu true blue Aussie patriots or not?

Do you say NO to Sharia law?
Do you believe in burning the national flag?
Do you believe Muslims should assimilate into our society.
Are you against female genital mutilation, wife beating, throwing gay men off buildings, chopping off kids hands for stealing, beheading someone who speaks out against the Koran, stoning women to death for adultery?

If we were forced into civil war in Australia with Muslims, which side would you take.....Fight like a true blue Aussie of succumb to Sharia law?


----------



## SirRumpole (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> Rumpy, what has all that razzmatazz got to do with Australian patriotism.




Don't think that you can run this thread fella or tell us what we can talk about. We don't have to play by your rules.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Don't think that you can run this thread fella or tell us what we can talk about. We don't have to play by your rules.




That  rhetoric just proves you don't know the answer or you are avoiding the question.....You are not a true blue Aussie if you cannot respond in a positive way...I am not asking you to play by my rules, I just asking for a truthful answer....If you don't want to give it, then say so.....I always thought the ASF was for open discussion.

It is not about me wanting to run this thread, it about you and Lu failing to make a commitment.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> If my memory serves me right we were chatting about Australian patriots, right?
> 
> Just another diversion away from the discussion....Your usual trait....You are so confused Luu.




Let me write real slow for you.

People often mistake patriotism for loving their country, right or wrong.

People mistake patriotism for the killing, or otherwise pummelling into submission, of minority groups. Forcing those to obey and follow the dominant ethnicity or else!

Implied in all these believes is that the gov't is always out there looking after the interest of the people, that those in gov't - the politicians, the king, the emperor - that those rulers are father of the nation, always loving and caring for them. 

So why are there poor people in the richest countries in the world? Why can't the richest country in the world not able to afford anything? Where are the good jobs? Why aren't their kids being properly educated? Why does the cost of everything goes up but their wages remain stagnant or declining?

It cannot possibly be due to their leadership making policies that screw the poor masses over, taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich. No, that cannot be.

It must therefore be the faults of Muslims, or Latinos, or [name your minority and parasite]. 

Why would rich people need welfare? Right? Why would corporations want more corporate welfare? 

It must be Muslims and their dozen wives and thousand kids leeching.

The example of VN is to show that if you step back, step out of your patriotism, you can clearly see that often, it's those with money and power that fark up the poor and the masses.

To blame the state of the economy; to blame the bad consequences of policies made by the rich and priviledged on the poor and powerless... you're having things backwards.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Let me write real slow for you.
> 
> People often mistake patriotism for loving their country, right or wrong.
> 
> ...




You sould write it in shorthand, it might make more sense.

For Christ sake Luu get back to the basics instead of all this hurdy gurdy rhetoric....You keep going around the mulberry bush...As I said before you want to have one foot on each side of the fence.

On this particular subject, I don't give a stuff what is going on in other countries, all I am looking for is the TRUE BLUE Aussies who can call themselves patriotic to Australia and you just cannot do that can you?

The Muslims certainly cannot that is for sure.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Contrast that with South Korea , where the "West" won. It's now one of the most vibrant and diversified economies in the world. So their President may be corrupt, but that doesn't change the fact that things are pretty good for the average citizen.
> 
> The US took over Japan after WW2. General MacArthur was in charge as I recall, and look at Japan now.
> 
> ...




S.Korea, Japan, Germany are doing well because the US want those colonies of theirs to do well.

What's the common thing about those three countries? They're all loaded with US military bases.

No self-respecting independent country would allow another country to have bases on its soil. Except Australia of course. We prefer US military bases here so that if the US ever go to war with China, China can have a proper excuse to bomb Darwin - like the good old days of WW2.

--------------

Something I learn from "Understanding Power"- A 27 hour audio book collecting the Q&A of Chomsky over the years. Highly recommended... Anyway...

After WW2, one of the main US post-war architect was George Kennan. He wrote that Germany must have a wall built to divide East from West Germany. That Germany cannot be permitted to unite and democratically vote in their leaders as the Germans are mostly Socialist-leaning, i.e. "Communist" sympathisers and we can't have those idiots contaminate a key industrial colony.

In other words, the US, like all imperial power, don't do anything for the benefit of others. 

These kind of meddling don't happen in Germany, they do it to all other European countries they liberated too. 

What did they do? They literally wage war on anti-Nazi/Axis rebels and put in place Nazi collaborators in those countries.

Why do they do that? The Nazi collaborators know the ways of the world, they will follow whoever rules the world. The rebellion who fought against Fascism care too much for the plebs, the working people. They're commies before commies are bad. You cannot have the country being ruled by self-righteous people loving idiots who love their country and won't bow to foreign power.

So there's Spain and the rise of its dictator; There's a war in Greece that kills some 100,000 and set up another dictator; there's Northern Italy where the rebellion against Hitler and Mussolini, with its own "commie" people's gov't giving workers rights, worker owning factories and all that hippy stuff. They were removed and the Nazi collaborators being installed.

That didn't go far enough so the Mafia was brought back in. Fascists don't share power, so they cleared out the mobs. The US actually brought the Mafia back to break unions and leaders they don't like. 


Now to S.Korea... a war against those to fought Imperial Japan was waged long before the Korean War got started. Killing over 150,000 S.Koreans. Why? So that power can be place in the hands of a few understanding Koreans rather than in the hands of the population.

When you want world hegemony, you do not want stupid stuff like national independence. It give the wrong idea that countries can govern themselves, for their own people.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> You sould write it in shorthand, it might make more sense.
> 
> For Christ sake Luu get back to the basics instead of all this hurdy gurdy rhetoric....You keep going around the mulberry bush...As I said before you want to have one foot on each side of the fence.
> 
> ...




Noco, if I don't defend this country, what other country do I have to defend?


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Noco, if I don't defend this country, what other country do I have to defend?




The Islamic invasion and that is what you are defending.......You are defending an Islamic country within a country.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> The Islamic invasion and that is what you are defending.......You are defending an Islamic country within a country.




I'm not a Muslim. Not religious. Enjoy a beer or two. So why in the world would I want to live under Muslim domination? 

If I want that, might as well fly over to Saudi Arabia right now.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> all I am looking for is the TRUE BLUE Aussies who can call themselves patriotic to Australia and you just cannot do that can you?




"True Blue" Aussies don't have to wrap themselves around a flag every day just to please you.

They go to work, look after their kids and make a contribution in ways other than bashing everyone who doesn't think exactly like them.

For the record as I've said countless times I don't like Islam and I hope it doesn't spread here, but that doesn't mean that I have to pick a fight with every Muslim I encounter or expect them to sing God Save the Queen every morning. No one else does , apart from you perhaps.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> "True Blue" Aussies don't have to wrap themselves around a flag every day just to please you.
> 
> They go to work, look after their kids and make a contribution in ways other than bashing everyone who doesn't think exactly like them.
> 
> For the record as I've said countless times I don't like Islam and I hope it doesn't spread here, but that doesn't mean that I have to pick a fight with every Muslim I encounter or expect them to sing God Save the Queen every morning. No one else does , apart from you perhaps.




So why do you and Luu continually defend them every time someone speaks out about Muslims in Australia and the way in which they behave....Are Muslims true blue Aussies, if not why not?

Muslims who come to this country are expected to up hold our laws and way of life.....Anyone who comes here with out that respect do not have a place in our society and should go back to where they came.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> So why do you and Luu continually defend them every time someone speaks out about Muslims in Australia and the way in which they behave....Are Muslims true blue Aussies, if not why not?




Just go and read some of my posts in this thread and you will see what I have said about Islam.

I'm tired of repeating myself over and over when all you do is read your own stuff.

Goodnight.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2017)

noco said:


> So why do you and Luu continually defend them every time someone speaks out about Muslims in Australia and the way in which they behave....Are Muslims true blue Aussies, if not why not?
> 
> Muslims who come to this country are expected to up hold our laws and way of life.....Anyone who comes here with out that respect do not have a place in our society and should go back to where they came.




When did I ever defend any criminal and thugs?

You can't say that all Muslims are this and that bad things and anyone who says otherwise are defending or condoning the bad stuff. Maybe they're defending the innocent.

Muslims do live under Australian laws. Those that break the law tend to get fined or imprisoned.

Just that Australian law permit freedom of religion and Halal food and prayers to their God however many times a day they want.

btw, I just remembered that if you're a religious Christian, you can go to Church pretty much 7 days a week. It opens 7 days a week with masses and preaching and amen and stuff.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Just go and read some of my posts in this thread and you will see what I have said about Islam.
> 
> I'm tired of repeating myself over and over when all you do is read your own stuff.
> 
> Goodnight.




You are just romancing with yourself again......You haven't quoted anything lately that makes any sense......Perhaps you should mince them all up and see what comes out at the end....Mostly BS.


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> When did I ever defend any criminal and thugs?
> 
> You can't say that all Muslims are this and that bad things and anyone who says otherwise are defending or condoning the bad stuff. Maybe they're defending the innocent.
> 
> ...




You defend them in your hidden way of razzadazzle  rhetoric.

Muslims living under Australia laws....What a joke.....How do they get away with polygamy for a starter?


----------



## noco (12 March 2017)

The political revolution is well under way in Holland.....The Muslim community is about to be pulled into line.

Their election is on March 15.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/03/09/why-europes-most-tolerant-country-surging-right


----------



## Tisme (13 March 2017)

noco said:


> The political revolution is well under way in Holland.....The Muslim community is about to be pulled into line.
> 
> Their election is on March 15.
> 
> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/03/09/why-europes-most-tolerant-country-surging-right




Andrew Bolt must be feeling some pride in his gene pool fighting back


----------



## noco (13 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Andrew Bolt must be feeling some pride in his gene pool fighting back




Poor little Tisme must have had a bad nightmare about Andrew Bolt last night and woke up with Boltphobia.

Not sure what your connection is between Andrew Bolt and the political revolution in Holland...I guess it must have got mixed up in your nightmare.


----------



## Tisme (13 March 2017)

noco said:


> Poor little Tisme must have had a bad nightmare about Andrew Bolt last night and woke up with Boltphobia.
> 
> Not sure what your connection is between Andrew Bolt and the political revolution in Holland...I guess it must have got mixed up in your nightmare.




Trolling again? Not too shallow for a fella that bellows and blubbers about being picked on.

 *Click here*


----------



## noco (13 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Trolling again? Not too shallow for a fella that bellows and blubbers about being picked on.
> 
> *Click here*



Hey Tisme, you asked for it.....Sorry you were not able to take it.


----------



## noco (14 March 2017)

Lets get this straight....Islam is not compatible with our society...FULL STOP.

To watch this video as to what is happening in France and the UK will shock any true Patriotic Australian....We don't need this burden placed upon us.......But it will happen here soon if we continue to bring in more immigrants from the ME....The majority of people in Australia are sick to death of this Muslim behavior and it has to be stopped now before it is too late....The more Muslim there are, the bigger muscles they develop....The division and hatred is becoming accentuated for everyone to clearly see.....Muslims want it all their own way or it is no way...If we speak out we are branded racists, bigots and what ever phobia is used to make us look like the perpetrators instead of the victims. 

We need a strong leader like Donald Trump...Turnbull and Shorten do not have the balls to do anything......All they think about is votes and power.

If something is not done soon, we will have a civil war right on out door step.......Tear gas and capsicum spray won't stop them...Perhaps a few bullets will do the trick and that is what they are asking for.


----------



## Tisme (14 March 2017)

noco said:


> Hey Tisme, you asked for it.....Sorry you were not able to take it.



Asked for what? I must be missing something ... I merely suggested Andrew Bolt, who has migrant Dutch parents and is proud of his Dutch heritage would probably be heartened by the stand of his gene pool against a group of foreigners aggressively protesting the governance of a foreign president.


----------



## noco (14 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Asked for what? I must be missing something ... I merely suggested Andrew Bolt, who has migrant Dutch parents and is proud of his Dutch heritage would probably be heartened by the stand of his gene pool against a group of foreigners aggressively protesting the governance of a foreign president.




And why should he not?

What I referred to was my post made no mention of Bolt but with your phobia about Bolt cracked your brain and you had to make some  comment.


----------



## Tisme (14 March 2017)

noco said:


> And why should he not?
> 
> What I referred to was my post made no mention of Bolt but with your phobia about Bolt cracked your brain and you had to make some  comment.




Bolt is one of your demigods so it's an automatic association. Back track all you like, but you know and everyone else knows you compulsively go defensive when I post anything about anything..... you'd argue black is white to get a troll comment in. 

Contrast yours with my very informative posts; the structure, the facts, the non inflammatory nature of my posts are a treat to savour.


----------



## noco (14 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Bolt is one of your demigods so it's an automatic association. Back track all you like, but you know and everyone else knows you compulsively go defensive when I post anything about anything..... you'd argue black is white to get a troll comment in.
> 
> Contrast yours with my very informative posts; the structure, the facts, the non inflammatory nature of my posts are a treat to savour.




I can see your high ego is working over time again...You certainly have a high opinion of yourself and proud to look down your nose to whom you think is inferior to yourself...Some Mothers do have them.


----------



## Tisme (14 March 2017)

noco said:


> I can see your high ego is working over time again...You certainly have a high opinion of yourself and proud to look down your nose to whom you think is inferior to yourself...Some Mothers do have them.





And a good grasp of irony


----------



## luutzu (14 March 2017)

noco said:


> Lets get this straight....Islam is not compatible with our society...FULL STOP.
> 
> To watch this video as to what is happening in France and the UK will shock any true Patriotic Australian....We don't need this burden placed upon us.......But it will happen here soon if we continue to bring in more immigrants from the ME....The majority of people in Australia are sick to death of this Muslim behavior and it has to be stopped now before it is too late....The more Muslim there are, the bigger muscles they develop....The division and hatred is becoming accentuated for everyone to clearly see.....Muslims want it all their own way or it is no way...If we speak out we are branded racists, bigots and what ever phobia is used to make us look like the perpetrators instead of the victims.
> 
> ...





Wow!

Scary stuff noco.

Can't duck and cover under our desk with this imminent civil war [?]. Btw, it's not a civil war when they've never integrated in the first place. It'd be an invasion. A Trojan Horse if you like.

Sneeky Muslims man. First their dictator, Saddam, thought to go against US interests and move his oil off of the petro dollar. So he have to be removed from his WMD and Iraq has to be liberated and freedom and democracy precision guided down on it by the tonnes.

Then the Iraqis have to die in their millions, millions more pretend to be homeless by putting their houses in the way of missiles and drone strikes. 

They then bring all neighbouring Muslim countries into this game and get themselves all liberated. Then in their tens of millions became "refugees" and spread all over the ME and N.Africa.

Then a few walk on foot, cramp into rafts and push into the seas. Those who's lucky enough to afford the trip and make it alive sneekily became "refugees" so that one day they will rise up and using their vote, demand that a country be ruled under Sharia Law, Allah willing.


dam, it's like a really really bad idea conjured up by those watching way too much badly scripted "news" stories.

---------

In all seriousness, there are White and non-Muslim Australians who are doing it really tough. But to blame any group of "not" Australians who have little or no representation at the high echelon of decision making, that's having it azz backwards.

While the welfare buck might stop at the Muslims feet, the buck for policy failures stops at the feet of those who make the actual policies. Why is that so hard to believe?

And no, Labor and Liberal politicians aren't screwing the country in favour of the Muslims. Why would they do that? The Muslims on welfare got no money. How can they get a cushy consultancy job doing that?


----------



## dutchie (14 March 2017)

noco said:


> The political revolution is well under way in Holland.....The Muslim community is about to be pulled into line.
> 
> Their election is on March 15.
> 
> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/03/09/why-europes-most-tolerant-country-surging-right




Make the Netherlands nice again.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> While the welfare buck might stop at the Muslims feet, the buck for policy failures stops at the feet of those who make the actual policies.




Indeed so. Like the policy that lets a lot of unskilled, uneducated people into the country to compete for jobs that aren't there so they do the only thing they can and go on welfare.

If we can't find jobs for people already here there is no point in bringing in more is there ?


----------



## luutzu (14 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Indeed so. Like the policy that lets a lot of unskilled, uneducated people into the country to compete for jobs that aren't there so they do the only thing they can and go on welfare.
> 
> If we can't find jobs for people already here there is no point in bringing in more is there ?




Skills and education can be taught and learnt, no?

Maybe it's just me but growing up seeing my parents helping their parents and siblings from the few hundred dollars they earn a week; you know, going without holidays or meals at a $5 restaurant; driving an old van 10 years after he auctioned then fixed up at our backyard ... all so that they can send a bit here and there to help a brother or a sister out of serious debt or a small machinery to feed their family.

Stuff like that teaches the kids a few important lessons in life. 

What lessons are we teaching our kids when we say that it's every man for himself. That those starving, shell-shocked and generally useless Muslims "refugees" ought to go screw themselves because generosity begins at home.

Good lesson.


And that's ignoring the studies showing that refugees positively contributes to the community and the economy. Just not right away. Gotta learn English and how to cheat welfare first.


----------



## noco (14 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Wow!
> 
> Scary stuff noco.
> 
> ...




And that is the whole crux of things, why bring in more who can't work of speak English.
The Muslims know exactly what they are doing make no mistake about that.


----------



## Junior (15 March 2017)

noco said:


> The Muslims know exactly what they are doing make no mistake about that.




Do you know this from personal experience, or are you going by what you see on those 'far-right' facebook pages and Donald Trump tweets?


----------



## noco (15 March 2017)

dutchie said:


> Make the Netherlands nice again.




Lets make Australia nice again also.....Get rid of the problem.


----------



## noco (15 March 2017)

Junior said:


> Do you know this from personal experience, or are you going by what you see on those 'far-right' facebook pages and Donald Trump tweets?




Junior, are you so blind that you cannot see for yourself.


----------



## noco (15 March 2017)




----------



## DB008 (15 March 2017)

Sharia Law
No thanks


----------



## noco (15 March 2017)

98.43% agree.

https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lis...n-australia-by-holding-a-referendum-your-take

And this is one of the reasons why.....Don't let it happen in Australia although it probably is happening here and no one knows about it.

http://www.therebel.media/proof_female_genital_mutilation_is_an_islamic_custom


----------



## noco (16 March 2017)

Year 5 Muslim students threatening  to behead teachers......This is how Islam is brainwashing kids minds for a future assault on our freedom....They are being trained now for radical activities in 3 to 5 years.

Moderate Muslims....PSST!

And our governments sit back and do nothing.

Action has to be taken with those radical kids before it is too late.

Pauline Hanson, Bob Katter and Cory Bernardi should combine forces and what a formidable team they would make.....I hope they gain in strength to put an end to all this disruption in our community. 

https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/346...reatened-to-behead-her-kill-her-family/#page1


----------



## luutzu (16 March 2017)

noco said:


> Year 5 Muslim students threatening  to behead teachers......This is how Islam is brainwashing kids minds for a future assault on our freedom....They are being trained now for radical activities in 3 to 5 years.
> 
> Moderate Muslims....PSST!
> 
> ...





One of the fundamental value of "Western" civilisation is presumed innocent noco.

Any threat of violence or terrorism is a serious crime. There are laws that will deal with that kind of nonsense.

But all that article said are just pure opinions and hearsay. It was alleged; she said this; she claim that.

While those claims might very well turn out to be correct... the Dept. of Education did say that there are no evidence of such claims, right? In the same article. Towards the end.

So is that another piece of fine News Corp. gutter journalism or opinions?


----------



## moXJO (16 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> One of the fundamental value of "Western" civilisation is presumed innocent noco.




Not true anymore. 
Domestic violence laws mean you are guilty off hearsay till you are proven innocent.


----------



## luutzu (16 March 2017)

moXJO said:


> Not true anymore.
> Domestic violence laws mean you are guilty off hearsay till you are proven innocent.




Yea true that.

I had an unfortunate experience of witnessing a guy almost being roughed up by the cops because his ex accused him of, first, rape; then later, physical abuse.

Some psychotic woman still play that feminine card... and came very close to putting a very good guy in serious trouble with the law if her "evidence" was a bit more convincing once the cops were calmed and listen. I mean, she asked someone else to bite her and bruise her up... took pictures of it and call the cops. Lucky for the bastard his teeth mark obviously does not match from the photo and the bruises are too fresh for him to have cause it seeing how he haven't seen her in over a week.


----------



## noco (16 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> One of the fundamental value of "Western" civilisation is presumed innocent noco.
> 
> Any threat of violence or terrorism is a serious crime. There are laws that will deal with that kind of nonsense.
> 
> ...




There were 3 teaches who had the same experience of threats at the same school....Once again LUU you jump to the defence of the Muslims...The predominately left media will suppress the real facts whenever they can.


----------



## luutzu (16 March 2017)

noco said:


> There were 3 teaches who had the same experience of threats at the same school....Once again LUU you jump to the defence of the Muslims...The predominately left media will suppress the real facts whenever they can.





From the article you link:


> A spokeswoman for the Education Department did not deny that teachers at the school had been given compensation.
> 
> However, she said *the department was not aware of any religious-related violence at the school*.
> 
> “All NSW schools must immediately report all concerns of anti-social and extremist behaviour in NSW schools to a dedicated hotline,” she said to News Corp.




How did I defend anything?

The spokeswoman for the Dept of Edu says wtf are you guys talking about? We're not aware of any religious-related violence at the school! If there were, the school will have reported it and we will work with law enforcement agencies to deal with it.

The rest of the article is this:

The daily telegraph says...; documents the paper receive "reveal" this...

[here's the kicker]

"One woman reportedly claimed..."

"She said the final straw was..."

"Prior to that she claimed ...."

"She said she was abused by students..."

"The woman also said she was pushed..."

"Many of the students also reportedly spoke...."

"The woman also reported an instance of bullying..."

"She said in an earlier incident..."

"News Corp reports that the woman said her complaints to the NSW Department of Education were simply dismissed."


Then the dept. of edu. spokewoman says wtf are you on about?


I even gave to the possibility that those claims might be true. Apparently the dept. of education have looked into it and found no evidence.

And that was presumably years ago when those kids were still in Primary and have since graduated and move on down to a HS known for radicalisation?


WOW.

I mean, all due respect to the teachers who News Corp. says they say they were abused and threatened. If true, it shouldn't happen. And those criminals should be investigated. 

But before we accuse and lock someone up, you need evidence, right? The evidence was looked at by the dept. of education, right? They found nothing, right?


----------



## SuperGlue (18 March 2017)

*Begin baby boom across Europe, Recep Erdogan tells Turks*

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...ecep-erdogan-tells-turks-20170317-gv0zru.html

We live in interesting times.
Trump, N Korea, IS, refugees and now Turkey.


----------



## noco (18 March 2017)

Here are some home truth about Obama......Enjoy the video.

http://www.yesimright.com/cia-offic...oy-america-proves-trump-was-right-all-along/#


----------



## luutzu (19 March 2017)

noco said:


> Here are some home truth about Obama......Enjoy the video.
> 
> http://www.yesimright.com/cia-offic...oy-america-proves-trump-was-right-all-along/#





From memory, the Muslim Brotherhood was elected to power after the Egyptian people managed to overthrow their US-backed dictator of some 30 years.

Obama just came into office, took a trip to Egypt and gave a nice speech about freedom and democracy and the wonderful Arab Spring of new blah blah.

Soon after the "rouge" CIA (and no doubt Israel) overthrow that democratically elected Egyptian gov't [regime?]. i.e. they kick the Muslim Brotherhood out. Installed the current dictator, gave him a few billions a year in arms and the Suez Canal is once again open to free trade and freedom stuff.

i.e. Muslim Brotherhood infiltrating the Obama admin? That's like saying democracy infiltrated Congress.


The title of the article is right though. Obama was destroying America. But not in ways you think.

There's the 7 wars in the ME; taking on Russia in the Ukraine; sanctioning Russia, forcing it closer to China; there's the fracking all over the US, polluting its limited water supply; there's the good speeches on climate change but promotion of fracking technology all over the world - Australia got into the act too. So thanks Obama. 

Then of course the gutting of constitutional rights like innocent until proven guilty; a day in court before being droned or spirited away without charge or trial. That's ignoring the moral and silly issue of terrorism by droning anyone anywhere 'we" bloody feel like it.

There's the "failure" to take an opportunity like the GFC to do another New Deal for America....

Setting the world up for a bigger future financial collapse... then handing it over to Trump by rigging the Democratic primaries in favour of Hillary instead of a sure winner in Sanders.

Gotta love Trump though. 

Gutting the EPA by 31%; kicking grandma and hungry kids off of a few free meals a week; removing the need for higher fuel efficiency because how are you going to spend all that finite resource right? And who cares about polluting water ways with farm runoffs, coal mine runoffs... that's hurting mom and pop farmers and miners.

Gut funding to the UN in the mist of the worst refugee/humanitarian crisis since WW2. Potentially putting tens of millions of Muslims and Africans in drought, famine, war ravaged countries to death. 

But yes, once we're done blaming Obama for Trump, let's focus on who's doing the stupid right now shall we.


----------



## DB008 (19 March 2017)

noco said:


> Year 5 Muslim students threatening to behead teachers......This is how Islam is brainwashing kids minds for a future assault on our freedom....They are being trained now for radical activities in 3 to 5 years.




Crazy, isn't it.

Don't listen to Luutzu, Noco - even if the teacher was beheaded, he'd make up an excuse for it and say that Religion had nothing to do with it and that it was orchestrated by something other than Islam (ie, the teachers fault).


----------



## luutzu (19 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> Crazy, isn't it.
> 
> Don't listen to Luutzu, Noco - even if the teacher was beheaded, he'd make up an excuse for it and say that Religion had nothing to do with it and that it was orchestrated by something other than Islam (ie, the teachers fault).




Shouldn't say things like that man. I would never condone or excuse violence or terrorism. 

Just when you want to blame an entire people, the bar is kinda high. Can't put hearsay and accusations as facts. The entire article was literally all about a woman said this, it was alledged that this happened... then the spokeswoman for the Dept. of Education says no, there is no evidence of any of that.

Would you like it if someone, somewhere accuse and alleged this and that, then we just lock you up based on what they say you did?


----------



## noco (20 March 2017)

This is  what is happening in the UK and Europe and may well happen her in Australia soon....How stupid are the leaders in the Europe for allowing so many Muslims into their countries....It is not infiltration, it is invasion by foreigners from the ME and North Africa.


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## luutzu (20 March 2017)

noco said:


> This is  what is happening in the UK and Europe and may well happen her in Australia soon....How stupid are the leaders in the Europe for allowing so many Muslims into their countries....It is not infiltration, it is invasion by foreigners from the ME and North Africa.





What would you do to foreign invaders noco?


----------



## Tisme (20 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> What would you do to foreign invaders noco?




Well perhaps when one of the women in your life becomes the victim of the "game" of Taharrush you might be able to personify what Noco and many others feel like doing.

Look up a video of the the "game" and imagine your wife, child, mother, aunt, etc as the victim, because it is happening at concerts, etc.


----------



## luutzu (20 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Well perhaps when one of the women in your life becomes the victim of the "game" of Taharrush you might be able to personify what Noco and many others feel like doing.
> 
> Look up a video of the the "game" and imagine your wife, child, mother, aunt, etc as the victim, because it is happening at concerts, etc.




When did I ever say Muslims are all saints?

Like I put to Noco... if we're to test whether or not Islam and Muslims are evil, just pick some vile despicable teachings and acts of theirs, show that more than half of Muslims around the world condone it, and that nothing like it has ever been done by people of any other culture or religion.

'til then... we'd have to stick to the old lefty nonsense of there are bad people in the world - from all walks of life.


----------



## pixel (20 March 2017)

I don't know why you guys keep bashing the same old, same old around each other's heads. Trump said it in one concise tweet: "There are some bad Dudes out there."

Pick any religion that demands from its believers unthinking, unwavering obedience under the Will of some invisible phantom above the clouds, that assures every follower eternal bliss beyond death, and condones hatred, subjugation, and slaughter of eternally-damned non-believers, and you have the perfect blueprint for radical morons taking such fantasy literally and rampaging and terrorising their neighbours.

The fault doesn't lie with Islam or Judaism or Catholicism. It lies with the leaders - secular and religious ones alike - who misuse ancient fairy tales to grab or hold on to Power. It's playing on the notion "my tribe/ creed/ race/ class is superior to everybody else's" that links extreme Racists, Nationalists, Theists and makes them equally evil as each other. The Delusion of Superiority is the true Root of Evil, because it contains the seed of intolerance, condoning the exploitation, rape, and murder of anyone who is "different".

In many cases, the victims of such devious teachings are not even aware of how they have been deceived. They simply detest every person and every idea that differs from their own prejudice, and they go to great lengths to justify their hatred. The anarchy of the Internet makes it ever easier, as even the nuttiest propaganda can be "proven" by "alternative facts" spouted by some anonymous affiliated nutter.


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## Tisme (20 March 2017)

pixel said:


> I don't know why you guys keep bashing the same old, same old around each other's heads. Trump said it in one concise tweet: "There are some bad Dudes out there."
> 
> Pick any religion that demands from its believers unthinking, unwavering obedience under the Will of some invisible phantom above the clouds, that assures every follower eternal bliss beyond death, and condones hatred, subjugation, and slaughter of eternally-damned non-believers, and you have the perfect blueprint for radical morons taking such fantasy literally and rampaging and terrorising their neighbours.
> 
> ...





Pixel the current threat is Islam. The title of the thread is Islamic and I don't think people understand how Islamic tribes work and the degrees of barbarism they are excused of because of a structural deficit of civilised leadership.


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## SirRumpole (20 March 2017)

pixel said:


> The fault doesn't lie with Islam or Judaism or Catholicism. It lies with the leaders - secular and religious ones alike - who misuse ancient fairy tales to grab or hold on to Power.




True, which is why when we find radical Imams, and the like we should expel them if we can and if we can't then keep them under close surveillance.


----------



## qldfrog (20 March 2017)

pixel said:


> The fault doesn't lie with Islam or Judaism or Catholicism. It lies with the leaders - secular and religious ones alike - who misuse ancient fairy tales to grab or hold on to Power. It's playing on the notion "my tribe/ creed/ race/ class is superior to everybody else's" that links extreme Racists, Nationalists, Theists and makes them equally evil as each other. The Delusion of Superiority is the true Root of Evil, because it contains the seed of intolerance, condoning the exploitation, rape, and murder of anyone who is "different".



The enormous difference Pixel is that islam was not an "after the fact" religion about a christ or buddha guy who may or not have existed, but a manual written by a power thirsty real and existing man, who after failing to attract followers with a kinder version, saw his salvation in a manual of war, a legal code and a way of life booklet.By raping and stealing from the infidel, and offering loot and wealth to his followers, he quickly gained followers  and managed domination;
aka imagine Hitler deciding to become a religious leader, do you really believe that changing the cult leaders would make adolfism a sensible choice even in 600 years time? The title of this threat is sadly far too truthful, and I am yet to find a *dedicated *follower of this religion (note the bold underline etc) who is worth sharing this planet with.
By dedicated I mean who applies his religion rules and principles in his day to day life, who by definition wants me dead or enslaved/converted: dead for me as I am a non believer
Very different from loose followers who until recently were by far the majority of the muslim world, but who must now comply or... I let Lutzu explain again why the west is guilty.... and muslims are angels


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## luutzu (20 March 2017)

qldfrog said:


> The enormous difference Pixel is that islam was not an "after the fact" religion about a christ or buddha guy who may or not have existed, but a manual written by a power thirsty real and existing man, who after failing to attract followers with a kinder version, saw his salvation in a manual of war, a legal code and a way of life booklet.By raping and stealing from the infidel, and offering loot and wealth to his followers, he quickly gained followers  and managed domination;
> aka imagine Hitler deciding to become a religious leader, do you really believe that changing the cult leaders would make adolfism a sensible choice even in 600 years time? The title of this threat is sadly far too truthful, and I am yet to find a *dedicated *follower of this religion (note the bold underline etc) who is worth sharing this planet with.
> By dedicated I mean who applies his religion rules and principles in his day to day life, who by definition wants me dead or enslaved/converted: dead for me as I am a non believer
> Very different from loose followers who until recently were by far the majority of the muslim world, but who must now comply or... I let Lutzu explain again why the west is guilty.... and muslims are angels




See Qldfrog, I never explain why Muslims are all angles. I don't say it because I know not all of them are.

You point to me a terrorist, a rapist, a murderer, a child abuser, a spousal basher... and I'll tell you how terrible and horrible they are, and how the law should be right to deal with them.

No excuses from me.

You know who make excuses for terrorism and murder?

The likes of Sam Harris; Bill Maher and pretty much all the idiot "journalists" in the main stream media and politicians.

What's Sam Harris, that secular "intellectual" and neuro-scientist... what did he say when the US drone a wedding, invade a few countries, sanction and starve millions... 

"we mean well". We want to "liberate" them... so our murder are all good. It's bad, but it's good because we're obviously good.

That's the very definition of justifying murder and terrorism. You make up excuses, you call "your" enemey, the enemy of your paymaster, evil, vile... you make lists of all crimes committed by "their kind"... and you explain away all the shiet "your" side does.

People like me don't do that. 

-----------

As to Islam and Muslim imperialism... no kidding it's evil and barbaric. 

Is Islam the only empire?

How did the French come to rule Indo-China, say. Or colonise most of North-West Africa? Or own Louisiana before selling it off to Jefferson so that Napoleon can get some cash for more wars all over Europe. 

The French colonise and expand its empire through what mean? Saying please and thank you? Being real polite and won't hurt a fly, just French enlightenment and Victor Hugo or something?

That's not to justify Islamic imperialism. It's to point out that we cannot put warmongering and imperialism on Islam and Muslims alone. 

That imperialism is evil and barbaric, we ought to stop it, not excuse it. 

To go and say that an entire religion and people are evil... Name one imperial power that ever colonise any country because it's people are good and pious. 

You're playing right into the hands that's itching to push a few buttons to destroy lives to take their oil. 

Why is that so hard to believe.

------

We talk of Islamic invasion by stealth. Them pretending to be refugees so that one day they can take over and ovethrow our value and system of gov't. How that's evil and we ought to fight back.

What are "we" doing all over the ME since WW2?

We have no military bases on their soil. You know, bases for our troops and all the hardware?

We don't currently drone and bomb their country at will? All of them?

Some Muslims may look at all that and think that their country is being invaded. Don't know why they think that, maybe it's just Islam.


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## luutzu (20 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> True, which is why when we find radical Imams, and the like we should expel them if we can and if we can't then keep them under close surveillance.




What made you think that's not happening?

The latest CIA leaks reveal that we're all being watched and listened to. All of us, through all our smart gears. And that's us who have no reason to ever care for a Muslim, let alone an Imam or a Muslim who might become a radical Islamic terrorist.


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## noco (22 March 2017)

Some good points raised about the barbaric Muslims.


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## luutzu (22 March 2017)

noco said:


> Some good points raised about the barbaric Muslims.





Why do you always quote racist idiots noco?

Bill Maher once said that those 9/11 terrorist are bad, but they're not cowards.

That got him fired from a cushy job. 

He had since learnt that it's better to be rich and employed so all these racist nonsense. A leech deserve more respect than this clown who parades around like some sort of intellectual.


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## DB008 (23 March 2017)

*Westminster attack latest: Four dead in London terror incident –*
*everything we know so far*​
Four people are confirmed to have died in a car and knife attack on Westminster in central London, including a police officer who was protecting Parliament and the suspected assailant, who was shot dead by armed police.

The attacker, dressed in black and armed with two large knives, drove a car over Westminster Bridge, ramming into members of the public before crashing his car into the rails outside the Houses of Parliament. 

Abu Izzadeen, who was born Trevor Brooks, has been named as the man who drove a car into the Houses of Parliament and attempted to attack police officers. His views were far from secret: videos of him can be seen across YouTube, in which he rants about how important it is to kill the police and how everyone in Parliament are kufar, or infidels.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...osions-heard-westminster-london-a7643686.html​


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## noco (23 March 2017)

HERE IS A HYPOTHETICAL FROM JEFFERY "NOCO" ROBINSON.

I became enthused with the Islamic movement as a young man and decided to join the Islamic brotherhood.......I was a sex maniac at the time and liked the idea of having more than one wife.

I married 4 women, had 17 kids and we were all  well catered for with social welfare by the generous Australian tax payer......The kids went to an Islamic school and were heavily brain washed with the Koran which taught them to hate Christians and infidels.......The teachings being, if you are not a Muslim you have to be eliminated...... They then  became racists......When the kids grew to teenagers they became radical and started to exploit there teachings, creating intimidation, fear and random attacks on non Muslims.....I then became dissolutioned with Islam and decided to excommunicate my self.....I did not know whether to hide or flee the country to save my head.

Because I left my 4 wives, they became adulterers and were stoned to death by their radical children.

The question is, should I seek forgiveness from the Islamic brotherhood, stay on the run or join One Nation?


----------



## DB008 (23 March 2017)




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## qldfrog (23 March 2017)

you just forget the "this is the act of lone person with a mental health issue"


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## noco (23 March 2017)

qldfrog said:


> you just forget the "this is the act of lone person with a mental health issue"




I believe he was a Muslim terrorist and 7 other Muslims have been arrested in connection with this fellow.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...n/news-story/3528c56770c1e8321e4941a3ef41e759


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## qldfrog (24 March 2017)

noco said:


> I believe he was a Muslim terrorist and 7 other Muslims have been arrested in connection with this fellow.



This was a tongue-in-cheek comment Noco.
I am more aware than anyone here of the islamist plague invasion .I lived among/with them in the 1990s in the housing estates of Paris suburbs as a pennyless and at the time open minded and leftist student.The reality quickly put me right and the absence of hope was a key factor in my migrating here: I wanted to offer a future to my kids.I am a refugee too :-(


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## DB008 (24 March 2017)

*London terror attack: Khalid Masood, 52, named as assailant*​THE London terrorist who murdered three people before he was shot dead by police has been named as a bodybuilding obsessed married dad-of-three.

Islamist convert former English teacher Khalid Masood, 52, who mowed down pedestrians on Westminster Bridge before storming Parliament and stabbing a police officer to death, was born in Kent but later moved to the West Midlands.

Scotland Yard said Masood had previous convictions for assaults, including GBH, possession of offensive weapons and public order offences. He had not been convicted of any terrorism offences.

Masood’s first conviction was in November 1983 for criminal damage and his last conviction was in December 2003 for possession of a knife.

The Metropolitan Police said there was “no prior intelligence about his intent to mount a terrorist attack”. The killer was known by a number of aliases including Khali Choudri, according to Sky News.


http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...n/news-story/c260b08eb7aafab15d7027afb65afdc6​


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## DB008 (24 March 2017)

There was Donald Trump interview on Bloomberg during the election period - "Getting harder on Islamic terrorism" - taking the gloves off and making it a level playing field. He was/is right. The West is too soft, they know this and use it to their advantage.

Open borders, benefits thrown at them like it's Christmas, permanent residence/citizenship.

Rumours are swirling around that an estimated 3,000 men (hardline Islamists - Jihadists) left the U.K. in recent years to fight in Syria, and then waltzed back in. Alarming to say the least.

Sadly - the only way to smash this (my prediction), is to bring in the military and deport people. Imagine going to an Islamic country and holding a sign "Behead those who insult Jesus", they'd laugh at you and throw you in jail - in the West - that's perfectly ok....



















​


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## DB008 (24 March 2017)

​


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## DB008 (24 March 2017)




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## dutchie (24 March 2017)

DB008 said:


>




In fact there are lots of things you can do about islamic behaviour




Sing kumbaya (this is really excellent as you can get a whole crowd to sing).


Repeatedly state that Islam is the religion of peace (tell a lie often enough then even the people telling the lie will believe it).


Don't describe the perpetrators. (This helps people imagine that maybe it was the Buddhists, Mormons or even Christians who did it)


Describe the perpetrators as insane, lone wolfs, misguided youths, downtrodden, yadda, yadda, yadda. (*But make sure you do not use the words islam or muslim).*


Get western leaders (presidents, PM's and Mayors etc) to state that our society will not give in to terrorists (but we will certainly keep helping them to continue killing us).


Get Islamic leaders to speak against these acts (good luck with that).


Build more mosques. (This helps the police keep an eye on peaceful muslims).


Continually pretend that this is not hurting our society or our way of life. (its just the price we have to pay (as long as its not my son, daughter, mother, grandfather) for multiculturalism).


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## Tisme (24 March 2017)

dutchie said:


> In fact there are lots of things you can do about islamic behaviour
> 
> 
> 
> ...





or use the grand daddy of logic one or two here use to win their philosophical arguments: some other villain of different persuasion did before it so it's OK


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## noco (24 March 2017)

Chris Kenny expresses the views of the majority of people in Australia......Bringing in more Muslims is bringing  in more trouble....Surely people are not that naive that they cannot see what is going to happen in Australia......Take some action now or regret the future.


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## SirRumpole (24 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> or use the grand daddy of logic one or two here use to win their philosophical arguments: some other villain of different persuasion did before it so it's OK




Maybe we should revisit our concept of "freedom of religion" to include only those religions that respect our laws.

It's amazing how loose the definition of "religion" is. People don't have to worship a "good" God, they can worship pagan gods like Zeus and still be called a religion with all the tax benefits thereof.

As  said before, religious should be required to issue affirmations of loyalty to the laws of the country they reside in, otherwise no money or tax free status for them.


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## Tisme (24 March 2017)

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...stralia?cx_navSource=related-side-cx#cxrecs_s



> However Australia appears to be bucking the trend, with recent figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics showing that Hinduism is the fastest growing religion in the country.


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## Tisme (24 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe we should revisit our concept of "freedom of religion" to include only those religions that respect our laws.
> 
> It's amazing how loose the definition of "religion" is. People don't have to worship a "good" God, they can worship pagan gods like Zeus and still be called a religion with all the tax benefits thereof.
> 
> As  said before, religious should be required to issue affirmations of loyalty to the laws of the country they reside in, otherwise no money or tax free status for them.





Yes I don't know why the sedition clause isn't invoked. If the political will is so weak to allow us to be living in fear as we are, why not punish the root of the fear with it's own weapon.

Even the social conscience of Australia must have come to realise that the military backed regimes that inevitably arise to subjugate the Islamic hordes are probably the best tried and tested method to keep them in check. It's as if many Arabs are conditioned to being ruled by warlords and don't don't how to behave when given the opportunity of enterprise, industry and democratic free thought. There appears to be a comfort zone in being relative primitives.


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## noco (24 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe we should revisit our concept of "freedom of religion" to include only those religions that respect our laws.
> 
> It's amazing how loose the definition of "religion" is. People don't have to worship a "good" God, they can worship pagan gods like Zeus and still be called a religion with all the tax benefits thereof.
> 
> As  said before, religious should be required to issue affirmations of loyalty to the laws of the country they reside in, otherwise no money or tax free status for them.




And I can only agree with you completely but which one of our leaders have the balls to do it?


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## noco (24 March 2017)

qldfrog said:


> you just forget the "this is the act of lone person with a mental health issue"




He had more than a mental health problem...He was a soldier of ISIS.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/34774893/soldier-of-islamic-state-carried-out-london-attack/#page1


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## qldfrog (24 March 2017)

noco said:


> He had more than a mental health problem...He was a soldier of ISIS.
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/34774893/soldier-of-islamic-state-carried-out-london-attack/#page1



noco, read my 6AM reply please...


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## Tisme (24 March 2017)

qldfrog said:


> noco, read my 6AM reply please...


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## luutzu (24 March 2017)

Stop with the stupid chest thumbing.

Stop using victims of terrorism to further your agenda. It's freaking disgusting.

If you guys are serious about terrorism, serious about preventing it, serious about the victims of terrorism... pull your head out of whatever paper you're being fed and think a bit.

-----------

Really, we are "too soft"? 

What's hard? Lock all Muslims up? Kill all of them, just in case?

It's not enough that such nonsense as presumed innocence, being tried in a court of law, privacy, civil rights... not enough that all these are taken away, from all of us, not just Muslims alone.

We have to be tougher and, I don't know, go over there and take their country over?

Yea, been trying that for over a decade and a half now, doesn't seem to be working.


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## dutchie (24 March 2017)

Kum ba ya, kum ba ya


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## SirRumpole (24 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> If you guys are serious about terrorism, serious about preventing it, serious about the victims of terrorism... pull your head out of whatever paper you're being fed and think a bit.




No, the shoe is on the other foot.

It's about time the Muslims started asking themselves what aspects of their ideology leads people in their group to go out and kill innocent people.

People of every race can live together if they aren't tied down with the baggage of religion. It's not up to us to change, we can go on living our lives peacefully as we have for decades unless some religion motivated idiots start killing us.

If Muslims don't want us to dislike or distrust them, then I suggest they give up their archaic and violent belief system that is well past it's use by date.

Religion is not compulsory after all, it's a personal choice. People don't have to do it.


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## DB008 (24 March 2017)

Well said Rumpy!


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## DB008 (24 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Really, we are "too soft"?




Tell that to the San Bernardino victims.

Enough's enough.


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## luutzu (24 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> Tell that to the San Bernardino victims.
> 
> Enough's enough.





You care about innocent people being senselessly murdered do you?

Don't get me wrong, the terrorist in London deserve what he got. It's freaking horrific and tragic that innocent people who go about their business and getting killed or injured like that. 

But focus your anger on terrorism and terrorists. Don't use the death and suffering of victims of terrorism to push the racist nonsense about all Muslims are terrorists and we must be tough and ban or banish or otherwise imprison them, all of them.

Wouldn't there be innocent victim in that proposed dragnet?

To use the death of innocent people to further your own political agenda is worst than those warmongering terrorists everywhere.

Look what Bush Jr. and Dick Cheney did. 

Using a national tragedy to freaking set the entire ME on fire for profit and oil. Razing most of it to the ground. Killing millions of people, literally. Spending trillions in national resources, costing who knows how many American soldiers lives. 

Is America safer? Richer? Americans more secured?


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## luutzu (24 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> No, the shoe is on the other foot.
> 
> It's about time the Muslims started asking themselves what aspects of their ideology leads people in their group to go out and kill innocent people.
> 
> ...




Did the terrorist's religion tell him to do it? We're sure of that now are we?

Did all Muslims in the UK vote or somehow agreed with that act of murder? 

Trump signed off on a raid in Yemen within days of taking office. That single raid killed about 30 villagers, including children, women, the elderly.

Should all White people; should all American people... or maybe all Christian people be blame for that massacre?

Anyway... Muslims all think alike. Done.


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## SirRumpole (24 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Did the terrorist's religion tell him to do it? We're sure of that now are we?




Pretty sure, yes.


----------



## dutchie (24 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Pretty sure, yes.



 no, absolutely sure!


----------



## luutzu (24 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Pretty sure, yes.




What about the other hundred thousand or so Muslims in England? 

They're lining up to go next?


Terrorism is a deadly serious matter. Worth spending some time to think about how best to prevent it. 

Knee jerk reaction about how evil Islam is; how all Muslims are infected; then how we know what to do wink wink... wtf?


----------



## DB008 (24 March 2017)

Germany is stuffed.....

*EU parents of daughter raped/murdered by Muslim migrant collect funeral donations for migrants*​
Maria Ladenburger, the rape/murder victim of a Muslim migrant and whose father is a senior EU official, told people to not bring flowers to the funeral but give money to a pro-migrant organization that works to stop deportation of “refugees_.”_

These are the acts of a conquered people. Their daughter was brutally raped and murdered by a Muslim refugee and her parents are urging donations to an organization for migrants.

http://pamelageller.com/2016/12/eu-...rant-collect-funeral-donations-migrants.html/​


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## SirRumpole (24 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Terrorism is a deadly serious matter. Worth spending some time to think about how best to prevent it.




Your solution ?


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## DB008 (24 March 2017)

This is how it starts...

Motion is in Canadian parliament. The bill has gone to a committee for study.


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## dutchie (24 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> This is how it starts...
> 
> Motion is in Canadian parliament. The bill has gone to a committee for study.




And Nero fiddled while Rome burnt.


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## noco (24 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> What about the other hundred thousand or so Muslims in England?
> 
> They're lining up to go next?
> 
> ...




http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/i...r-freedom-then-you-better-watch-this-graphic/


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## SirRumpole (24 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> What about the other hundred thousand or so Muslims in England?




100,000 or so ? For real ?

There are 2.7 million Muslims in Britain or about 4.5% of the population.

And they cause more problems than the other 95.5%


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## luutzu (24 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Your solution ?




It's definitely not to round all Muslims up and send them off somewhere.

The last time a bunch of idiots did that, over 6 million innocent people got sent to concentration camps, gas, their hair cut for use in brushes and clothing; their bodies burnt and in some camps their ashes use as fertilisers for the cabbage patch.

No one is saying stop bringing terrorists to justice; no one is excusing terrorism.

Just don't associate terrorism with an entire group of people. That's how Bush Jr. and co. managed to destroy the entire sub-continent for whatever grand plan his God and corporate masters told him to.


----------



## luutzu (24 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> 100,000 or so ? For real ?
> 
> There are 2.7 million Muslims in Britain or about 4.5% of the population.
> 
> And they cause more problems than the other 95.5%




Yup. Muslims are terrorists and trouble makers, let's set up a few camps.


----------



## luutzu (24 March 2017)

noco said:


> http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/i...r-freedom-then-you-better-watch-this-graphic/




A UN report recently state that Israel is an Apartheid state. Did you know that?

But of course being a "democracy" and having its terrorists and warmongers all nicely suited up, it get to tell the UN's Secretary General to tell those "Muslims" committee to recind the report.

The head of the report refused, stating that all they have said are based on International Law. So off you go then ya hippy "anti-Semite".

Then Israel tries to get a South African gov't to denounce the report. Saying that it's an insult to S.African to compare Israel's policies as Apartheid.

S.Africa says, no... you guys are worst than freaking Apatheid.

So yea, might not want to post link from those racist Israeli noco.

And no, not all Israeli are racist. There are Israelis who stood up, and got arrested, against the war crimes and general racism the state of Israel commit against all other race beside Jews.


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## luutzu (24 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> Germany is stuffed.....
> 
> *EU parents of daughter raped/murdered by Muslim migrant collect funeral donations for migrants*​
> Maria Ladenburger, the rape/murder victim of a Muslim migrant and whose father is a senior EU official, told people to not bring flowers to the funeral but give money to a pro-migrant organization that works to stop deportation of “refugees_.”_
> ...





Why don't you stop and think for a bit?

You're accusing the parents of a rape/murder victim for being weak, for "betraying" their daughter and giving in to her rapist and killer.

How could anyone say such things?


Did the parents urge people to donate to their daughter's rapist and murderer? 

Stop using victims of crimes to pursue your own agenda. It's sick.


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## SirRumpole (24 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yup. Muslims are terrorists and trouble makers, let's set up a few camps.




Just correcting your data, no need to fly off the handle.


----------



## DB008 (24 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Why don't you stop and think for a bit?
> 
> You're accusing the parents of a rape/murder victim for being weak, for "betraying" their daughter and giving in to her rapist and killer.
> 
> ...




1) You are putting words in my mouth and insinuating l said something l didn't.
2) You are running before you can walk. Go back a few steps mate.

If people were vetted properly and there was a proper immigration system in place, there is probably a good chance that this poor young girl wouldn't have been raped + murdered. Instead, Germany threw open the gates and got flooded by millions of unknowns. Look at Sweden, arguably the rape capital of Europe.

You are trying to blend two totally different cultures, ideologies and ways of life - it ain't going to happen.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 March 2017)

How many more of these morons are there ?

*Melbourne man 'slaughtered' wife in front of children over desire to join Islamic State, prosecution says*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-...-over-decision-join-is-court-document/8381350

*Western Sydney teenager pleads guilty to planning Anzac Day terror attack*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-24/anzac-day-terror-attack-accused-teenager-pleads-guilty/8383336


----------



## luutzu (24 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> 1) You are putting words in my mouth and insinuating l said something l didn't.
> 2) You are running before you can walk. Go back a few steps mate.
> 
> If people were vetted properly and there was a proper immigration system in place, there is probably a good chance that this poor young girl wouldn't have been raped + murdered. Instead, Germany threw open the gates and got flooded by millions of unknowns. Look at Sweden, arguably the rape capital of Europe.
> ...




So you didn't say what the article said, you just agree with it. Same difference.

Refugees are not immigrants.

Under International Law, a person can come "illegally" into any country that's signatory to the UN refugee convention and claim asylum. To do so does not break any immigration law.

The country then provide temporary stay - in a public housing or an immigration detention centre, depends - as they investigate the asylum seeker's claims. 

If the claim is valid, if the asylum seeker is not a threat to national and health security etc., then a visa is granted or deals can be made with a third country etc. etc.

So while waiting for their claim to be processed, if crimes are committed... that farker is sent home. And no one is going to argue against that.

Should we blame all genuine refugees for the crimes of a few among them? 

If you think we do, just do your neighbours a favour and tell them that if your house is ever broken into, you'll be bashing all of their heads in because chances are one of them did it.


----------



## wayneL (25 March 2017)

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, ex Muslim, comment Post London incident


----------



## DB008 (25 March 2017)

wayneL said:


> Ayaan Hirsi Ali, ex Muslim, comment Post London incident





This is exactly it.

Dear everybody, sorry if my posts the last few days have sounded harsh - Ayaan puts it exactly how/what l have been trying to convey. 

The mighty Luutzu, please take note.


----------



## noco (25 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> This is exactly it.
> 
> Dear everybody, sorry if my posts the last few days have sounded harsh - Ayaan puts it exactly how/what l have been trying to convey.
> 
> The mighty Luutzu, please take note.




Mate, I have been harping on it for the past 10 years.

I happened to mention the word "INFILTRATION" of Muslims into the Western World  in a couple of my posts going back 7 and 10 years ago and was accused of being of being a racist.....Two of my posts were deleted.

We find out now it was more than infiltration, it is an invasion and when a country is invaded, what action is normally taken?

You bloody well fight back as our fore fathers did during WW11......That is what it is all about.......Protection of our freedom....We must not let foreigners take over our country no matter which way they do it.


----------



## Jorgensen (25 March 2017)

Are you surrounded by Muslims Noco...Do you live near a mosque and maybe you are fed up with hearing the call to prayer at ungodly hours?
I thought that Australians were in Muslim countries,and had been for years,terminating locals.


----------



## noco (25 March 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> Are you surrounded by Muslims Noco...Do you live near a mosque and maybe you are fed up with hearing the call to prayer at ungodly hours?
> I thought that Australians were in Muslim countries,and had been for years,terminating locals.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 March 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> I thought that Australians were in Muslim countries,and had been for years,terminating locals.




The locals would be terminated or enslaved by the radicals anyway, it's a poor choice for them.


----------



## luutzu (25 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> This is exactly it.
> 
> Dear everybody, sorry if my posts the last few days have sounded harsh - Ayaan puts it exactly how/what l have been trying to convey.
> 
> The mighty Luutzu, please take note.




Big deal. She didn't say anything she haven't said about Islam before.

And this game of bringing out an ex-Muslim, a victim of Islam, to bash Islam... it's not exactly new either, is it?

See, some people, when you pay them enough money, they'll sell their mother if you ask them to. 



Well, she did add a few extra new ideas. That Trump's banning of Muslim is the right way to go, just it was done clumsily - like not bringing in lawyers to craft a racist, xenophobic executive order properly. 

I mean, if you want to be racist and indiscriminately make other people's life hell, you have got to do it in a way that's hard for human rights "lawyers" and activist judges to say it's unconstitutional. Duh!

-------

And there's this little gem. 

Apologising for Western civilisation make us weak. 

Is Western civilisation all cotton candies and lollipops? There are no sins committed?

If so, it's the only civilisation in the history of the world to have nothing to be sorry about. Because all other nation state, all other cultures, have committed a whole lot of horror that if they think it's right and just still, then that's just psychotic.

Imagine if slavery was nothing to feel sorry about. It's the right thing and we don't want to admit it's bad because that'll make us "weak". How about women's non-rights? Stay at home, stay in the kitchen, have kids and be illiterate. Don't apologise for that, don't see that as wrong, it'll make us weak.

How about invading other people's country on false pretences? Causing the death of 2 million a piece; times it by about 8; times that 8 by some 10 million being displaced, homeless, on the edge of famine or in famine. 

Don't ever admit to your mistakes. It'll embolden the enemy and make us weak. 

Maybe bring in Sam Harris and Bill Maher... they're just as stupid but have some sort of respectability for some reason.


----------



## luutzu (25 March 2017)

noco said:


>





See noco, racism and blind devotion to God and culture aren't just some White people's thing.


----------



## luutzu (25 March 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> Are you surrounded by Muslims Noco...Do you live near a mosque and maybe you are fed up with hearing the call to prayer at ungodly hours?
> I thought that Australians were in Muslim countries,and had been for years,terminating locals.




Do what Israel is doing - define that call to prayer "noise pollution" then ask the local council to "fix" noise pollution by banning it.


----------



## Tisme (26 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Do what Israel is doing - define that call to prayer "noise pollution" then ask the local council to "fix" noise pollution by banning it.





It does spoil a holiday listening to sirens and bleating out "derka derka mohammed jihad" over loud speakers.


----------



## DB008 (26 March 2017)

noco said:


>





Mental illness...


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> It does spoil a holiday listening to sirens and bleating out "derka derka mohammed jihad" over loud speakers.




I live a couple of blocks away from a pretty big Mosque. I've never heard anything.

Also live a few houses away from a Church. The choir can be quite loud too when they're at it. 

I've heard these call to prayers loudly in Malaysia. They're actually quite pleasing to the ears, just like the Christian choirs.

But ey, if people got a problem, they'll find problems to complain about.


----------



## noco (26 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> I live a couple of blocks away from a pretty big Mosque. I've never heard anything.
> 
> Also live a few houses away from a Church. The choir can be quite loud too when they're at it.
> 
> ...




In Latoka Fiji, the Muslim loud speakers start wailing at 5 am every morning......No doubt the local authorities in Australia would soon put a stop to that....I think I would sooner listen to a church choir than that incessant irritating wailing which nobody understands.......The church choir would no doubt be once a week on Sundays.......What does it (walinig) all mean Luu?


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2017)

noco said:


> In Latoka Fiji, the Muslim loud speakers start wailing at 5 am every morning......No doubt the local authorities in Australia would soon put a stop to that....I think I would sooner listen to a church choir than that incessant irritating wailing which nobody understands.......The church choir would no doubt be once a week on Sundays.......What does it (walinig) all mean Luu?




Christians, Jews and Muslims all pray to the same God. 

Something tells me religion is not at the root of all the wars.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> Christians, Jews and Muslims all pray to the same God.




Where did you get that silly idea ?

Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that God belongs to them and them only and he will look after their "chosen people", and defeat their enemies.

That's worked really well so far hasn't it ?


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Where did you get that silly idea ?
> 
> Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that God belongs to them and them only and he will look after their "chosen people", and defeat their enemies.
> 
> That's worked really well so far hasn't it ?




VC can enlightened us on this, but I'm pretty sure the Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship that same Yahweh/God/Allah - same Dude.

For the Jews, Moses is God's only Prophet; to the Christians, Jesus Christ is the main man, God's son; for the Muslims, Muhammad is God's last prophet - with Moses, Christ also being prophets.

So all these war and clash of civilisations business is either one big Freudian kind of clash to see who's God's favourite people; or it's just simply about land, money and oil. 

Since only Muslims are savages who'd fight war and terrorise people for no good reason than because of Islam telling them to; the Jews [as Israel like to think they represent] and the Christians [as the PR machine of the Alliance of the Willing tells us] are fighting for freedom, liberty, democracy... and if oil and strategic real estate happen to still remain after all the slaughter, well what else can we do but waste not, want not.


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> Mental illness...




Mental illness... or... or just some people thinking that it's mental for others to somehow not believing in the same thing they do, and wouldn't mind getting rid of non-believers and those not getting with the programme.


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2017)

Trust a comedian to tell news like it is.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> and the Christians [as the PR machine of the Alliance of the Willing tells us]




You still refuse to accept that the west is not a Christian society in the same way as the Middle East is a Muslim society.

Christianity may have been influential in the formation of our laws but the majority of people don't go to church any more and our society is mostly secular.

Contrast that with the Middle East . Indonesia etc where the laws are made by Muslims for Muslims.


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You still refuse to accept that the west is not a Christian society in the same way as the Middle East is a Muslim society.
> 
> Christianity may have been influential in the formation of our laws but the majority of people don't go to church any more and our society is mostly secular.
> 
> Contrast that with the Middle East . Indonesia etc where the laws are made by Muslims for Muslims.




The US is quite a religious country. But true, their foreign policy have nothing to do with religion. Religion is just one of the tools politicians use to move their population.

As to whether the West is a Christian society or not... it's more secular but we still celebrate all the Christian Holy Days as a public holiday. So it's not as secular as we think. Take gay marriage; birth control/abortion in the US.

As to Arabs and Muslims being all fundamental religious people... not sure about that either. That's the image we're getting from our authority and media. Who knows. People might just turn up to Mosque because it's a habit and like all people around the world, most never cared for the entire religious texts and all its magic.

Christians got their Bible bashers, Muslims sure got theirs. And if the country is ruled by religious nuts, well... we get banned on gay marriage; "pro-life" politicians quoting the Bible about life being precious and then vote on cutting welfare to the poor and carpet bombing other people.


----------



## Macquack (26 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> As to whether the West is a Christian society or not... it's more secular but we still *celebrate all the Christian Holy Days as a public holiday*..




Don't expect that to change in a hurry.

If there was a proposed public holiday for Muhammed's birthday or what ever, the average Aussie would queue up to take full advantage.


----------



## luutzu (26 March 2017)

Macquack said:


> Don't expect that to change in a hurry.
> 
> If there was a proposed public holiday for Muhammed's birthday or what ever, the average Aussie would queue up to take full advantage.




Yea I wouldn't go for it either. Such a downer if you can't drink on a holiday


----------



## Tisme (27 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> The US is quite a religious country. But true, their foreign policy have nothing to do with religion. Religion is just one of the tools politicians use to move their population.


----------



## Tisme (27 March 2017)

Who wants to wager it's not a Muslim husband who's done this?

http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...ttacked-with-axe-at-melbourne-shopping-centre


----------



## Tisme (27 March 2017)

Another use for the Arab dress:


----------



## luutzu (27 March 2017)

Tisme said:


> Another use for the Arab dress:





Not cool McGee.


----------



## Tink (28 March 2017)

Haven't you noticed that we live in the CRIME state with the Labor/Greens in Victoria.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/i-dislike-daniel-andrews-intensely.32824/page-3


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## dutchie (31 March 2017)

Australian baby executed by Islamic State terrorists in chilling act of revenge after his father tried to flee the conflict zone and come home

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lled-Islamic-State-terrorists-tried-flee.html

Islam, the religion of peace.

Does this not answer the thread question for you?


----------



## luutzu (31 March 2017)

dutchie said:


> Australian baby executed by Islamic State terrorists in chilling act of revenge after his father tried to flee the conflict zone and come home
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lled-Islamic-State-terrorists-tried-flee.html
> 
> ...




When terrorist thugs kill babies, it's Islam that tells them to do it? Hence, Islam is evil and so all Muslims are too? It's not possible that ISIS did it because they're... I don't know, psychotic terrorists?

Just in case you haven't read what "our value" have been up to in the Middle East over the past few weeks.

There's that Trump singing off on a raid in Yemen. Killing some 28 villagers, some 18 of the dead are innocent children under 12 years of age. But one American soldier died and the US lost a $70M helicopter, so according to John McCain, it's anything but a success like Trump said it is.

Then there's Mosul... the "US-led" alliance dropped some 2,000 bombs on a single day.
The "Iraqi" tell the civilians to stay inside, do not try to leave the city.

Then in one strike, about 200 civilians were blown to bits while taking refuge in a basement of a good samaritan who thought the basement is big enough to housed their neighbours.

Back to Yemen... US-backed Saudi Arabia, buying some hundreds of billions of US and UK hardware, have been bombing the crap out of Yemen because they decided a Saudi stooge aren't serving Yemen's interests.

So the entire country is blockaded, its only bridge to the one port the Saudi controls is knocked out... no food, no water, no medicine goes in. Some 14 million people are either in or just a hair line above famine.

Whatever food or water or medicine that does managed to get through... the majority of the people are too poor, have no work due to the war and raids, that they cannot afford it even when it's available.

Yet, "our value" tells us to arm, provide intelligence and refuelling the Saudis - one of the most brutal and oppressive regime in the world. But they're "our bastards" so that makes it OK.

But ey, ISIS kill people and babies too. So Islam is evil.


----------



## noco (1 April 2017)

An Australian Shaikh, Avi Yemeini, has certainly put his head on the line for beheading......I hope he has a good body guard.


----------



## noco (2 April 2017)

Islam us more than an infiltration...It is an invasion of war.......Listen very carefully to this man.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/663454310378140/permalink/1406327922757438/


----------



## SirRumpole (3 April 2017)

Anti Islamic commentator Aayan Hirsi Ali forced to cancel Australian tour due to security concerns.

Islam, the religion of peace and tolerance. Yeah, right.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...-scheduled-qa-appearance-20170403-gvc6k3.html


----------



## wayneL (3 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Anti Islamic commentator Aayan Hirsi Ali forced to cancel Australian tour due to security concerns.






SirRumpole said:


> Islam, the religion of peace and tolerance. Yeah, right.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...-scheduled-qa-appearance-20170403-gvc6k3.html




This is disgraceful.  I am deeply ashamed of our country right now.


----------



## luutzu (3 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Anti Islamic commentator Aayan Hirsi Ali forced to cancel Australian tour due to security concerns.
> 
> Islam, the religion of peace and tolerance. Yeah, right.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...-scheduled-qa-appearance-20170403-gvc6k3.html




That's one way to get the message across, and get it for free too.


----------



## noco (5 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> That's one way to get the message across, and get it for free too.




The peaceful Muslims......until it comes to freedom of speech, then the intidation and threats begin so much so than an ex Muslim woman fears for her life and has has to have security guarding 24/7.....The so called peaceful Muslims would behead her at the first opportunity no matter in what part of the world....It is a pity more Muslims women did not join her to protect women's rites and to be free of Sharia law......Sharia law and Muslim schools should be banned in Australia along with the burker.  

*slam critic Ayaan Hirsi Ali accused The Project's Waleed Aly of having an agenda
She said he used Orwellian tactics to downplay ISIS threat to help expansion
Ms Hirsi Ali had to cancel her Australian speaking tour over of security fears
She has lived with tight security because of stance against Islamist extremists

 'Wth statements like that, tell him we've all read George Orwell, you want to turn things around and turn things on their head, we know exactly what you want to do,' she told 7News.

 'Don't talk about ISIS because it empowers them.

 'Gee. So let's all pretend ISIS is not there so that they can quietly expand. That's basically what he means.'

 In November 2015, Waleed Aly told viewers on The Project ISIS was weak, following the terrorist attacks in Paris that killed 130 people and wounded hundreds of others.

 'Shutting people up raising awareness about Sharia law':...

 Islam critic and author Ayaan Hirsi Ali - who called on...

 He's become the face of moderate Islam - but who is the real...

 'I don't agree': Labor MP and shadow minister Linda Burney...

 'I know it doesn't look like it right now but it's the truth and they don't want you to know it which is why is it something we should talk about,' he said in his editorial which was viewed more than 16 million times online.

 The 38-year-old Network Ten personality was previously an executive member of the Islamic Council of Victoria, whose board members have proposed separate sharia law courts in Australia.

 In this same interview, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, 47, launched a scathing attack on sharia law and compared the burqa to a 'very big swastika'.

 She made the comments on Tuesday after cancelled her upcoming Australian speaking tour over security fears.

 'The burqa that covers the face... that is just like the ISIS flag. It's like wearing a very big swastika,' she said.

 Controversial Islam critic Ayaan Hirsi Ali (pictured) has launched a scathing attack on Sharia law and compared the burqa to a 'very big swastika'
+8
Controversial Islam critic Ayaan Hirsi Ali (pictured) has launched a scathing attack on Sharia law and compared the burqa to a 'very big swastika'

 Ms Hirsi Ali was forced to cancel her upcoming Australian speaking tour over security fears
+8
Ms Hirsi Ali was forced to cancel her upcoming Australian speaking tour over security fears

 Ayaan Hirsi Ali says wearing a burka is like wearing a 'Swastika'

 'Everywhere where Sharia law is applied women are robbed of their rights and their dignity. 

 'I cannot think of a system of law that dehumanises and degrades women more than Islamic law,' she said.

 Ms Hirsi Ali also called for Islamic schools to be banned 'in Australia and all other liberal societies.' 

 The outspoken Islam critic was subjected to female genital mutilation as a child and set up the AHA Foundation to campaign against the barbaric practice.

 Ms Hirsi Ali also compared the burqa to an Islamic State flag. Above, men and women dressed in burqas from the group 'Faceless' call for the banning of the conservative Muslim apparel
+8
Ms Hirsi Ali also compared the burqa to an Islamic State flag. Above, men and women dressed in burqas from the group 'Faceless' call for the banning of the conservative Muslim apparel

 'The burqa that covers the face... that is just like the ISIS flag. It's like wearing a very big swastika,' she said. Above, she attends a book presentation in Germany in 2015
+8
'The burqa that covers the face... that is just like the ISIS flag. It's like wearing a very big swastika,' she said. Above, she attends a book presentation in Germany in 2015

 She became an lawmaker in the Netherlands after seeking political asylum there in 1992 in an attempt to escape an arranged marriage to a cousin.

 For years she has lived with tight security as a result of her stance on radical Islamists.

 Ms Hirsi Ali was due to speak at events in Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney and Auckland this week.

 Organisers of her trip Think Inc advised on Monday of the cancellation. 

 Ms Hirsi Ali became an MP in the Netherlands after seeking political asylum in an attempt to escape an arranged marriage
+8
Ms Hirsi Ali became an MP in the Netherlands after seeking political asylum in an attempt to escape an arranged marriage

 For years she has lived with tight security as a result of her stance on radical Islamists
+8
For years she has lived with tight security as a result of her stance on radical Islamists

 'Ayaan Hirsi Ali regrets that for a number of reasons including security concerns she must cancel her upcoming appearances,' Think Inc said in a statement on Monday. 

 'She wishes the event organisers success in their future endeavours and hopes to return to Australia in the not too distant future.'

 Ms Hirsi Ali's trip to Australia had sparked protests from a group of Muslim women who accused her of hate mongering and bigotry.

 Almost 400 signatures appeared on an online petition against Ms Hirsi Ali's speaking tour.

 'Against a backdrop of increasing global Islamophobia, Hirsi-Ali's divisive rhetoric simply serves to increase hostility and hatred towards Muslims,' the petition, posted on change.org, said. 

 That petition was authored by Islamic Museum of Australia board director Sherene Hassan.
*





Ayaan Hirsi says Waleed Aly has agenda in downplaying ISIS threat
*Islam critic Ayaan Hirsi Ali has accused The Project host Waleed Aly of having an agenda in downplaying the threat of ISIS in viral editorial seen by 16 million…
dailymail.co.uk*


----------



## luutzu (5 April 2017)

noco said:


> The peaceful Muslims......until it comes to freedom of speech, then the intidation and threats begin so much so than an ex Muslim woman fears for her life and has has to have security guarding 24/7.....The so called peaceful Muslims would behead her at the first opportunity no matter in what part of the world....It is a pity more Muslims women did not join her to protect women's rites and to be free of Sharia law......Sharia law and Muslim schools should be banned in Australia along with the burker.
> 
> *slam critic Ayaan Hirsi Ali accused The Project's Waleed Aly of having an agenda
> She said he used Orwellian tactics to downplay ISIS threat to help expansion
> ...





You did read the reasons for her not coming over right? That she couldn't come over for a few reasons, one of them being security.

Hmm... what other reasons could those other reasons be. Maybe Think Inc. didn't pay her enough. I mean, she did come over to Australia not too long ago right? There were threats then too.

Anyway, you should look more into her background. Apparently there was an investigative doco about her some years ago. Turns out she might have lied about threats to her safety in claiming asylum. 

I don't claim to know much about the Middle East and its politics, but the little that I do know I can assure you that this lady is bs-ing you. It's quite disgusting what she's doing to earn a living actually.


----------



## noco (5 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> You did read the reasons for her not coming over right? That she couldn't come over for a few reasons, one of them being security.
> 
> Hmm... what other reasons could those other reasons be. Maybe Think Inc. didn't pay her enough. I mean, she did come over to Australia not too long ago right? There were threats then too.
> 
> ...




Do you have a link to your claim or is it more hearsay rhetoric.


----------



## luutzu (5 April 2017)

noco said:


> Do you have a link to your claim or is it more hearsay rhetoric.




Read it on the ABC.

But here's the doco they referred to. 

Her brother speaks at the 7.30 mark. There's are four parts. Enjoy.


----------



## luutzu (5 April 2017)

noco said:


> Do you have a link to your claim or is it more hearsay rhetoric.




Turns out her family weren't that religious. She was sent to a top High School for girls; live in relative luxury, never seen any wars, never forced into any marriage, never fear for her life from her father or brother, there's never any honour killing in Somalia where her family came from.

Uses a Canadian Muslim to marry her, take his money and ticket, got off in the Netherlands and tell a big lie about how nasty the Muslims are to gain asylum etc. etc.

I don't mind her being an economic migrant, people have the right to dream of a better life for themselves. Not sure you think it's A OK though.

But she's one despicable person for selling out her father, her brother, her aunt, her ex-husband like that though.

I think it's enough to tell people the other Muslims are bad and threatening to take your life. Do you really need to also say that your father was an Muslim bastard who will send your brother to kill you for dishonoring the family for not wanting to get into a "forced" marriage with a freaking Canadian - you know, a guy with dollars who would have no problem finding another woman in Kenya to marry.

And that's all before she figured certain Western powers want a useful tool to spread the message against people they're about to wipe off the map.

She's quite admirable in a sick, sadistic way though.


----------



## noco (5 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Read it on the ABC.
> 
> But here's the doco they referred to.
> 
> Her brother speaks at the 7.30 mark. There's are four parts. Enjoy.





Do you have proof that man is her brother or a paid  actor for the ABC.?


----------



## noco (5 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Turns out her family weren't that religious.
> 
> She's quite admirable in a sick, sadistic way though.




If her family was not that all religious, the why did she have to suffer the humiliation of genital mutilation?


----------



## luutzu (5 April 2017)

noco said:


> Do you have proof that man is her brother or a paid  actor for the ABC.?




Good point.

But it's true enough that she quit parliament soon after the doco was aired, hit the road to the US to make her mark on the world.


----------



## luutzu (5 April 2017)

noco said:


> If her family was not that all religious, the why did she have to suffer the humiliation of genital mutilation?




I tend not to take a proven liar's words noco. So having seen and heard how he bs about practically everything, I wouldn't be surprised she lied about genital mutilation too.

Come on man, she was allowed to attend school. Her parents paid for her and her brother to learn English; Her mother told her to get higher education so she can be independent. etc. etc.

btw, I think she did admit that the "actor" was her brother. She was shown the video and interview he made. She didn't deny about him, about her aunt's identity. Didn't deny that her ex-husband visited her while she was in Holland...

Anyway, screw her. Wasting enough time on people like this already.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Anyway, screw her. Wasting enough time on people like this already.




It's a hell of a way to make a living isn't it, setting yourself up as a target ?

Anyone who criticises Islam is a fake and a liar ? 

Some propaganda works pretty well on some people doesn't it ?


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a hell of a way to make a living isn't it, setting yourself up as a target ?
> 
> Anyone who criticises Islam is a fake and a liar ?
> 
> Some propaganda works pretty well on some people doesn't it ?




Why not watch that investigation into her stories and claims about her own life and upbringing. Then decide if I accuse her of lying because she criticises Islam.

The woman's a liar. She is ambitious, she know how to play people and proved she will use and throw and sellout anyone to "make it".

People can criticise Islam, or any religion, they like. Is it too much to ask that they be honest and objective about it?

I'm a critic of Islam, if you could believe that. I'm also a critic of Christianity, Judaism and other religion. Also a critic of imperialism, war, terrorism and crappy movies too. And I'm just some unknown on the internet. Never claiming to be some expert or objective intellectual.

She on the other hand... she "knows" Islam; she "experience" its horror growing up in a Muslim family... Turns out it's all bs she made up.

But let's ignore all her bs biographical nonsense. Is her criticism of Islam fair? Her put down of Muslims justified? Objective?

She was a victim of violence and abuse, she says. She managed to escape it, escape war, terror, famine, poverty... escaped and seek asylum from the Muslim barbarians. But... but all the Muslim refugees Trump's banning, that's all good.

All Muslims are bad and shouldn't be permitted into Europe else they'll take over. 

Islam is horrible, it's real bad... but those escaping it are somehow all Trojan horses? They can't possibly be real victims of Islam? 

Some people sell weapons and warheads; other sell propaganda and bs. Not sure who's worst. Well, weapons won't be fired until the propaganda is well sold.


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a hell of a way to make a living isn't it, setting yourself up as a target ?
> 
> Anyone who criticises Islam is a fake and a liar ?
> 
> Some propaganda works pretty well on some people doesn't it ?




btw, Bill Maher and Sam Harris made a pretty good living criticising Islam. So why not her right?

If a person live in Russia or China, they'd make a pretty good living criticising.. .I don't know, the US and all its capitalist pigs; Tibet and Japanese warmongers. 

They too will make a good living excusing Russian war crimes; Chinese human rights abuses, and what imperial ambition; what destruction of the environment and state corruption.

Smart but amoral people know who has the butter; what they have to do to get the bread and have it properly buttered.

There's a reason why most people work for those with money and power. 'cuase they have money and power.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Islam is horrible, it's real bad... but those escaping it are somehow all Trojan horses? They can't possibly be real victims of Islam?




Most of the refuges seem to "keep the faith" once they escape from the nasty Muslims.

Maybe they are so brainwashed that they don't know any better, but we really don't need brainwashed potentially dangerous people here.


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Most of the refuges seem to "keep the faith" once they escape from the nasty Muslims.
> 
> Maybe they are so brainwashed that they don't know any better, but we really don't need brainwashed potentially dangerous people here.




A yard too far for those people to link their primitive hostile rule book of life with the primitive hostile behaviours of their peers.


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Most of the refuges seem to "keep the faith" once they escape from the nasty Muslims.
> 
> Maybe they are so brainwashed that they don't know any better, but we really don't need brainwashed potentially dangerous people here.




Other religion, say Christianity, are more advanced and... secular and democratic. Is it?

I've watched Jane Austen movie adaptation SirR. Weren't long ago that good Christian women were kept at home, does nothing but find a husband. No? Were women/daughters seen as equal to men. They certainly were given nothing from their parent's estate. 

Oh, but Christianity has progressed since. No they haven't. It's secularism, democracy and other non-religious, non-Christian civil rights and women's movement fought for it.

So these nonsense about one side is more superior than the other, more culturally superior... tell that to people who don't know history, or observe the world and its people.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Oh, but Christianity has progressed since. No they haven't. It's secularism, democracy and other non-religious, non-Christian civil rights and women's movement fought for it.




I don't really care for Christianity either, so there is no point trying to drag me into a religious battle.


I left Christianity when I grew up, but no one came after me calling me an apostate who should be killed.


----------



## noco (6 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Most of the refuges seem to "keep the faith" once they escape from the nasty Muslims.
> 
> Maybe they are so brainwashed that they don't know any better, but we really don't need brainwashed potentially dangerous people here.




It is one gigantic planned invasion of the West..They know what they are doing/


----------



## noco (6 April 2017)

Iman Shaikh Mohammed Tawhidi has had to go into hiding with police protection to save him from being beheaded.....What sort of a country are we now living in?

Freedom of speech!!!!!!!!!!!!...forget it...we have lost our rights.

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.a...n/news-story/ef6292c23f758367117f40bdcd9f4cd1


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> So these nonsense about one side is more superior than the other, more culturally superior... tell that to people who don't know history, or observe the world and its people.




So why do you always take a fractious contrary stance against Christianity, western roots, WayneL and Australia's endemic personality in favour of everything Chinese if it isn't you displaying your cultural superiority?


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> So why do you always take a fractious contrary stance against Christianity, western roots, WayneL and Australia's endemic personality in favour of everything Chinese if it isn't you displaying your cultural superiority?




I'm not Chinese. My great great great grandfather was Chinese, married a Viet some time between the Second Opium War, ahem, and the fall of the Last Emperor.

But I didn't get into Chinese history and philosophy because of that small heritage. It's all because there weren't any English translation of VNese history and philosophical works for me to read. Something I'm sure to fix once those millions roll in though 

And no, I didn't show you how the Chinese invented every useful thing long before the Europeans [] to show "our" or my cultural superiority. It's to show an example of another culture I know a fair bit about also contributing to human progress and civilisation.

That we all learn from, stole from, stands on the shoulders [or throats] of other cultures.

Saw an interview with former CIA-Analyst and peace activist, apparently such people do exist, telling how he often ask his students what's the anagram of "indispensable"... Dispensable. 

The US [and the West] call itself the "indispensable" nation. What does that imply about other nation and civilisation? They're all dispensable?

Other nations and cultures wouldn't like to hear that too much if they weren't also busy patting themselves on the back about themselves too.


----------



## noco (6 April 2017)

Iman Shaikh Mohammed Tawhidi speaks his mind on Islam...He has no tolerance for radicalization and is very clear...If Muslims cannot abide by Australian laws and our way of life then they should return to their Muslim country of origin......

Is it any wonder he now fears for his life?


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Saw an interview with former CIA-Analyst and peace activist, apparently such people do exist, telling how he often ask his students what's the anagram of "indispensable"... Dispensable.
> 
> .




I'm guessing you meant "antonym" ?

I still think you are a Chinaphobe, however you do display the great Oz trait of knocking fellow Australians.


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2017)

noco said:


> Iman Shaikh Mohammed Tawhidi speaks his mind on Islam...He has no tolerance for radicalization and is very clear...If Muslims cannot abide by Australian laws and our way of life then they should return to their Muslim country of origin......
> 
> Is it any wonder he now fears for his life?






Trouble is he still parades an Islamic uniform and his words may well be a trojan horse.

You don't see Chinese migrants wearing their silk PJs enmasse everywhere they go?


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> I'm guessing you meant "antonym" ?
> 
> I still think you are a Chinaphobe, however you do display the great Oz trait of knocking fellow Australians.




Yes, that, antonym, or whatever is the reverse of.

It's Sinophile. Chinaphobe sounds like someone who fear China.

And no, I don't knock fellow Australians. I knock everyone equally. It's one of those traits you pick up growing up among the White barbarians and their intellectual tradition of laughing at stupid nonsense.


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yes, that, antonym, or whatever is the reverse of.
> 
> It's Sinophile. Chinaphobe sounds like someone who fear China.
> 
> And no, I don't knock fellow Australians. I knock everyone equally. It's one of those traits you pick up growing up among the White barbarians and their intellectual tradition of laughing at stupid nonsense.





That's the spirit. You are definitely ockerfied.


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> That's the spirit. You are definitely ockerfied.




Not completely there yet.

Isn't the test for that be where I'd have to laugh and poke fun at the Viets and Asians? Not for political office and financial gain, but just for kicks.

You know, like a true blue Aussie poking fun at the whinny poms. 


Here's an Irish joke I heard from that same Ray McGovern. 

His grandfather, who was Irish, once ask young Raymond if he know why the sun never set on the British empire.

Why granddad?

Because God don't trust the poms in the dark.


----------



## Tisme (6 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Not completely there yet.
> 
> Isn't the test for that be where I'd have to laugh and poke fun at the Viets and Asians? Not for political office and financial gain, but just for kicks.
> 
> ...




You don't do it for anything but that you can. Politics, race, religion, financial gain, political office are just props for the initiation.


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> You don't do it for anything but that you can. Politics, race, religion, financial gain, political office are just props for the initiation.




It's great isn't it. To be able to crack wise and not get disappeared. 

See, this is why the Chinese are more effective than the West... hehe... They just indoctrinate their masses into servile worshipping of the elders and their God Emperor. So the plebs do as they're told without ifs and buts.

Whereas Western civilisation, for some reason, have this individualistic attitude and democracy, questioning authority business. It led the masses astray in demanding more and more freedom and equality and rights. Then the state have to go to the trouble of paying off the likes of Murdoch and other consultants to whip hope and independence and rationality out of the great unwashed.

Say what you will about the Chinese, they know how to cut out the middle man.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> See, this is why the Chinese are more effective than the West... hehe... They just indoctrinate their masses into servile worshipping of the elders and their God Emperor. So the plebs do as they're told without ifs and buts.




Sounds like Islam doesn't it ?


----------



## luutzu (6 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sounds like Islam doesn't it ?




Yes. But with nukes and a proper military.

And that, to steal a phrase from Rob Frost, makes all the difference.

It differentiates between good and evil; "trading partner" or colony; it mean a token role in a Hollywood movie as a hero or a terrorist. 

Saw Kong: Skull Island recently. I don't think that Chinese girl could fire that M16 and not hurt herself.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's great isn't it. To be able to crack wise and not get disappeared.
> 
> See, this is why the Chinese are more effective than the West... hehe... They just indoctrinate their masses into servile worshipping of the elders and their God Emperor. So the plebs do as they're told without ifs and buts.
> 
> ...




Only those from the center and center right. The left (and the way the **** extreme right) curiously seems to yearn for the Chinese model.


----------



## Tisme (7 April 2017)




----------



## luutzu (7 April 2017)

wayneL said:


> Only those from the center and center right. The left (and the way the **** extreme right) curiously seems to yearn for the Chinese model.




There's no Left or Right really. There's just the ruling class and the rest.

In quite a few of his work, Chomsky references the Trilateral Commission - consisting of a bunch of future Carter Admin advisors, you know, "Lefties". btw, Murdoch was backing Carter with his papers when he first got to the US; and for that support he got quite a few favours.

Anyway, there was this Trilateral Commission consisting of the best and brightest of men trying to figure out what's wrong with the US in the late 50s and early 60s.

Their conclusion was that there's a "Crisis of Democracy". What is that? Not enough people turning in on politics? They're too lazy and too drunk to care about the country's politics?

Nope. There's just too much democracy. The stupid masses somehow think they own the place or something. With all the protests against the war; the civil rights movement; the push for clean air and water, protecting the environment... Houston, we got ourselves a crisis of democracy.

So what are we to do about it? Can't crack their skull because too much freedom and liberty have been won by them. 

A clear example of what was planned to solve this crisis was in the Powell Memorandum - written by the eventual US High Court Justice Powell to the Business Council - when he was consulting to them.

One is too much freedom because the media and their cameras show too much truth. 

Then there's just too many free stuff with good wages, leading to too many unburdened hippies. i.e. get rid of union; remove free education; get them into massive debt.

But most important, the institutions "responsible for the indoctrination of the young" are failing our business community. Too many hippies teaching the kids how to think and all that.

We know what was done since.


So there's just the masters up top; the masses at the bottom. And all these Left/Right, race, religion, us vs them nonsense... it's just divide to rule and conquer.

Same story in China, Russia, western "democracies"...


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> There's no Left or Right really.
> 
> .



Ignoring the verbose convolution,  and recognising a substantive overlap,  bullsh1t.


----------



## luutzu (7 April 2017)

wayneL said:


> Ignoring the verbose convolution,  and recognising a substantive overlap,  bullsh1t.




OK then.

Just ask any business executive, anywhere in the world, who they donate to.

Beside a handful of die hards, most donate to both sides of politic. 

Why do you think Bill Clinton and Obama put Goldman Sachs people into high places? The same as Bush the Elder, the Younger, and Trump the Yellow Emperor.


----------



## wayneL (7 April 2017)

wayneL said:


> and recognising a substantive overlap, l.



Read up Grasshopper 

But,  as far as business is concerned,  the motive is profit,  they will support whomever satisfies that short term imperative.


----------



## noco (7 April 2017)

Is this what we can expect down the track in our country......No wonder people are starting to get up in arms about it all....No wonder One Nation is gaining traction.

https://www.facebook.com/FreedomOfS...300043967576/1918031155094460/?type=3&theater


----------



## noco (9 April 2017)

Paris today...Sydney in 5 years.....And what should we be doing about it?...Now is the time to take action before it is too late.


----------



## Tisme (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> Paris today...Sydney in 5 years.....And what should we be doing about it?...Now is the time to take action before it is too late.





Shame they aren't so brave in their homeland.


----------



## noco (10 April 2017)

This why we should be doing more to stop the advance of Islam.


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> Paris today...Sydney in 5 years.....And what should we be doing about it?...Now is the time to take action before it is too late.





Strange how I don't remember any riots in France this year. 

There was that clearing of "the jungle" where refugees was sheltering. Some hippies was out protesting about that and people were bussed away. A riot like that I haven't seen. 

Link us another source, this time with a date stamp noco.


----------



## noco (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Strange how I don't remember any riots in France this year.
> 
> There was that clearing of "the jungle" where refugees was sheltering. Some hippies was out protesting about that and people were bussed away. A riot like that I haven't seen.
> 
> Link us another source, this time with a date stamp noco.




Perhaps you read it again...It happened in 2017.


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> Paris today...Sydney in 5 years.....And what should we be doing about it?...Now is the time to take action before it is too late.





Is this the same one?

They said it's riots against police brutality. Set off by a 22 year old black kid claiming (?) he was raped and beaten by the police.

The channel is Russian TV but it doesn't seem to show Muslim youth rioting because Islam tells them to though.


----------



## noco (10 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Is this the same one?
> 
> They said it's riots against police brutality. Set off by a 22 year old black kid claiming (?) he was raped and beaten by the police.
> 
> The channel is Russian TV but it doesn't seem to show Muslim youth rioting because Islam tells them to though.





 No it is not the same one...How can you compare the two?...Furthermore I don't see any date on your video.


----------



## luutzu (10 April 2017)

noco said:


> No it is not the same one...How can you compare the two?...Furthermore I don't see any date on your video.




Pretty sure the date was in Feb 2017. 

There's plenty of riots noco. Those that are just caused by Muslims wanting Jihad would have already been all locked up somewhere.

So who knows, sometimes black and brown people riot not because Allah told them to, but simply because they feel they've been harassed and unfairly targetted for no other reason than they don't look White.

Just look at the race riots in the US. Cops shoot black people, when it got caught on camera one too many time, a city or two get scary black people rioting.

I think there's some protests by the Climate Scientists in the US soon. For end of April. 

Heard the scientists are a bit shocked at the budget cuts and policies Trump and his cronies has been doing.


----------



## noco (11 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> *Strange how I don't remember any riots in France this year. *
> 
> There was that clearing of "the jungle" where refugees was sheltering. Some hippies was out protesting about that and people were bussed away. A riot like that I haven't seen.
> 
> Link us another source, this time with a date stamp noco.




You seem to have contradicted yourself in just 24 hours.


----------



## Tisme (11 April 2017)

When global war finally breaks out, will the govt hire 457 visa holders for the fight?


----------



## luutzu (11 April 2017)

noco said:


> You seem to have contradicted yourself in just 24 hours.




No, I searched YouTube under "paris riots" and that RT news clip came up. It was dated around Feb 2017. I thought it would have been shown on the news scrawls itself but you can check it out if you like.

As to the clip you posted of hooded rioters and an Allah Arkbar here and there from another scene, or maybe the same riot... It look like one of those edited footage designed to say something without saying it.


----------



## noco (11 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> No, I searched YouTube under "paris riots" and that RT news clip came up. It was dated around Feb 2017. I thought it would have been shown on the news scrawls itself but you can check it out if you like.
> 
> As to the clip you posted of hooded rioters and an Allah Arkbar here and there from another scene, or maybe the same riot... It look like one of those edited footage designed to say something without saying it.




Oh man oh man Luu .....your head is all mixed up.


----------



## luutzu (11 April 2017)

noco said:


> Oh man oh man Luu .....your head is all mixed up.




I often wonder that too. Turn out I'm all alright and it's other people that's messed up


----------



## noco (15 April 2017)

Here is a list of Muslim terrorists attack in the last 30 days.

http://thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30


----------



## luutzu (15 April 2017)

noco said:


> Here is a list of Muslim terrorists attack in the last 30 days.
> 
> http://thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30




That's quite a detailed, and horrific, list there noco.

But it does seem to miss out the "good" kind of terrorism - anti-terrorism. 

Check this link out: https://airwars.org/tag/civilian-casualties/

In Iraq and Syria alone, there's an estimated 1,000 dead civilian in March 2017 from coalition strikes. February was a lower 700.

April... There was that estimate 200 dead when coalition strike a Mosque; 

There's the MOAB Trump just kinda authorised dropped "on ISIS". Killing 36 terrorists (and everything within a 1 mile radius). Probably nothing within that area though. Maybe a few birds and cactus and a goat or two.

So a MOAB is the deadliest non-nuclear weapon. This is the first time it's dropped on suspected target. Where's the outrage? 

A weapon that consumes all the oxygen within its blast radius of 1.6km, turning the air to fire. I guess that's just to bring peace and democracy in a real hurry.

---------------

Check out the Korean peninsular. Might wake up tomorrow to a new war. 

Let's hope the Chinese and North Korean blink first 'cause the way Trump and his generals are going, any idiot Colonel in the US military right now could start WWIII with an accidental strike.


----------



## noco (16 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> That's quite a detailed, and horrific, list there noco.
> 
> But it does seem to miss out the "good" kind of terrorism - anti-terrorism.
> 
> ...




Unfortunately in any wars many civilians can suffer the consequences mainly because ISIS terrorist use civilians as human shields knowing full well they will get world publicity in a similar way you are expressing yourself....Do terrorists worry about their victims whether they are civilians or not?
Of course they don't so don't talk such rot.

Would you prefer the West do nothing and let Islam take over Australia so we are compeled to live under Sharia law?.....Wake up to yourself Luu.......This movement by Islam has to be stopped.

North Korea are huffing and puffing and Trump is calling their bluff....The USA could wipe out North Korea before their long range missiles reached the shores of the USA.


----------



## luutzu (16 April 2017)

noco said:


> Unfortunately in any wars many civilians can suffer the consequences mainly because ISIS terrorist use civilians as human shields knowing full well they will get world publicity in a similar way you are expressing yourself....Do terrorists worry about their victims whether they are civilians or not?
> Of course they don't so don't talk such rot.
> 
> Would you prefer the West do nothing and let Islam take over Australia so we are compeled to live under Sharia law?.....Wake up to yourself Luu.......This movement by Islam has to be stopped.
> ...




We in the West are outraged, and rightly so, when terrorists attack and kill innocent people. But... but when it's our terrorism, when we take out innocent Muslims, that's OK? That's part of war? ISIS are using them as human shields so we obviously can't have that and so take out the shields too?

Wake up to yourself noco.

It's that kind of "reasoning" that allow the slaughtering of literally millions of innocent people, so far. And nothing is being done about it.

When ISIS or some nutjob who happen to also be a Muslim commit murder, we're all upset and add it to a list of Islamic crimes. When our missile take out a Mosque, a hospital, a school... meehhhh... It's war, what can you do.

That's messed up man. You cannot justify the killing of innocent people. The moment we start doing that, we're no better than ISIS and terrorists. 


The US can obviously take all of North Korea out. But can they take out China too? All of them? All before they let loose a nuke or two back at us?

Even if they didn't, or couldn't. That's freaking genocidal. But ey, Trump is great. He's a real tough guy. Dodging the Vietnam War drafts, spending his entire life screwing business partners, investors and employees... now he's a real hero because he let the generals do whatever the heck they want. 

Anyway.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> when we take out innocent Muslims, that's OK?




Of course it's not 'OK' it's just war. 

Do we have any more right to be outraged when our civilians are killed ? Probably yes, because terrorists deliberately target civilians. I don't believe our forces deliberately target civilians but instead go to pains to try to ensure that there are as few around as possible.

Of course there are mistakes. If there is negligence there is usually a court martial. Whether court martials are rigged in favour of the soldiers, who knows, it's possible. Other soldiers are the ones passing judgement.

There are no black and whites in war, just a lot of cr@p happening.


----------



## luutzu (16 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course it's not 'OK' it's just war.
> 
> Do we have any more right to be outraged when our civilians are killed ? Probably yes, because terrorists deliberately target civilians. I don't believe our forces deliberately target civilians but instead go to pains to try to ensure that there are as few around as possible.
> 
> ...




Do you know what's the civilian to terrorist kill ratio the US military admitted to? Under Obama?

90%. That's 9 in 10 Muslims being killed by drone strikes, by the coalition, being civilian. Had that stopped the drone programme?  And this is assuming that its intended target are actual terrorist, I mean, they can't come back to tell us they're not a terrorist right?

How many Court Marshall have we heard of? The only one that come to mind was the Black Water contractors/mercenaries shooting up a few Iraqi in too public a place.

And no, we do not painstakingly try to avoid killing innocent civilian. There's a literal memo, a rule of engagement, that said it is "acceptable" to strike terrorist target if the collateral damage is "only" 25 civilians. Pretty sure it was former CIA analyst Ray McGovern who said people he know said that.

With Trump... he just removed that kind of "constraint" so it's a free for all now. 

But sure, it's the fog of war; we mean well so that makes it acceptable. 

Do we really "mean well" btw? I guess it just so happen that countries we decided to liberate also have oil and whose dictator aren't cooperating.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> 90%. That's 9 in 10 Muslims being killed by drone strikes, by the coalition, being civilian. Had that stopped the drone programme? And this is assuming that its intended target are actual terrorist, I mean, they can't come back to tell us they're not a terrorist right?




Do you have any links to that data ?


----------



## noco (17 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> We in the West are outraged, and rightly so, when terrorists attack and kill innocent people. But... but when it's our terrorism, when we take out innocent Muslims, that's OK? That's part of war? ISIS are using them as human shields so we obviously can't have that and so take out the shields too?
> 
> Wake up to yourself noco.
> 
> ...




Why would ISIS rebels kill innocent refugees Luu?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/syria-rebels-bomb-refugees/news-
story/7bb2161daa2262c8b505a38c41dd0878

Who are the aggressors?

Just like WW11 the Germans and the Japanese were the aggressors and had to be stopped.

You still have not answered my question from the past.

Would you like to see the whole of Australia come under Sharia law?


----------



## Tisme (17 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Do you know what's the civilian to terrorist kill ratio the US military admitted to? Under Obama?
> 
> .





What does that ratio mean; soldiers versus civilians?

here's a body count site https://www.iraqbodycount.org/


----------



## dutchie (17 April 2017)

*The Norwegian Police Security Service (PST) just published in February its yearly threat assessment.* It concluded -- as did its threat assessment for 2016 -- that Norway might experience an Islamic terrorist attack from Islamic State (ISIS) sympathizers acting upon ISIS's call to carry out independent attacks.

There you go, Norway is getting as smart as Sweden (rape capital of the world) and GB,France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, Australia etc. Who would of thought they had it in them.


----------



## Tisme (17 April 2017)

dutchie said:


> *The Norwegian Police Security Service (PST) just published in February its yearly threat assessment.* It concluded -- as did its threat assessment for 2016 -- that Norway might experience an Islamic terrorist attack from Islamic State (ISIS) sympathizers acting upon ISIS's call to carry out independent attacks.
> 
> There you go, Norway is getting as smart as Sweden (rape capital of the world) and GB,France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, Australia etc. Who would of thought they had it in them.




Europe still hasn't recovered emotionally from WWII. Australia is preoccupied with playing hide & seek with motorists and punishing civilians for having an opinion.


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you have any links to that data ?





The Intercept



> *Strikes often kill many more than the intended target*
> 
> The White House and Pentagon boast that the targeted killing program is precise and that civilian deaths are minimal. However, documents detailing a special operations campaign in northeastern Afghanistan, Operation Haymaker, show that between January 2012 and February 2013, U.S. special operations airstrikes killed more than 200 people. Of those, only 35 were the intended targets. During one five-month period of the operation, according to the documents, nearly 90 percent of the people killed in airstrikes were not the intended targets. In Yemen and Somalia, where the U.S. has far more limited intelligence capabilities to confirm the people killed are the intended targets, the equivalent ratios may well be much worse.
> 
> “Anyone caught in the vicinity is guilty by association,” the source said. When “a drone strike kills more than one person, there is no guarantee that those persons deserved their fate. … So it’s a phenomenal gamble.”


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> What does that ratio mean; soldiers versus civilians?
> 
> here's a body count site https://www.iraqbodycount.org/




Badly worded maybe, but meant to say the ratio of civilian/terrorist in an average strike. That is, for every terrorist we take out, how many civilians also get killed. 

Answer, according to Obama's admin, is none. Until those dead or their relative can come into a US consulate and prove it.

There's also the "double tap" isn't there? One strike take out "the bad guys", then the drone circle around and assume that anyone who rushes in to save those terrorist are also terrorist themselves - so a second strike clears the area.

Some estimate put the Iraqi deaths since Jr. had it liberated at 2 million. I'm assuming that that total include deaths caused by all war parties... how many of those 2 million do you reckon are terrorists or soldiers?

Remember US General Wesley Clark quoting some Pentagon officer who used to work for him? That after 911, people on top are planning to take out 7 different ME countries in 5 years?

Of those countries named, only two are left standing: Lebanon and Iran.


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

noco said:


> Why would ISIS rebels kill innocent refugees Luu?
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/syria-rebels-bomb-refugees/news-
> story/7bb2161daa2262c8b505a38c41dd0878
> ...




I answered that before noco.

Why would I want any religion ruling Australia, or any country for that matter.

Western Democracies are secular. They've long ago remove Christianity and put "the market" and freedom and other catchphrases in its place.

Just so you know, no country ever fought another country because of its religion.


----------



## noco (17 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> I answered that before noco.
> 
> Why would I want any religion ruling Australia, or any country for that matter.
> 
> ...




Is that so.....Why did Germany eliminate 6 million Jews if it was not about religion.

Why are we fighting Islam if is not about religion.....What is the Syrian war all about?
Just one bad religion fighting another bad religion.
Your argument does not hold water..


----------



## SirRumpole (17 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> The Intercept




I have never heard of "The Intercept". You can quote anyone you like but that doesn't make them correct.


luutzu said:


> Some estimate put the Iraqi deaths since Jr. had it liberated at 2 million. I'm assuming that that total include deaths caused by all war parties... how many of those 2 million do you reckon are terrorists or soldiers?




80 people killed today in Syria by a roadside bomb.

The Allies again ?


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

noco said:


> Is that so.....Why did Germany eliminate 6 million Jews if it was not about religion.
> 
> Why are we fighting Islam if is not about religion.....What is the Syrian war all about?
> Just one bad religion fighting another bad religion.
> Your argument does not hold water..




The Nazi didn't set out to murder the Jews. They started with calling them parasites who should be expelled from Germany. That the Jews were bad because their religion and culture does not fit in with whatever it was that was pure about the Aryan master race.

So yea, there was religion and racial supremacy. But the Nazi didn't start any war over the Jewish religion.

In fact, they sent the Jews away. Let them go to the US and wherever they want. Just the other Western countries didn't want them after a few ship load. So they were shipped back home.

So much for Judeo-Christian value.

Since Hitler and the Nazi call the Jews parasites and all that, the next "rational" step, according to those farkers, was to murder them. Along with all other "parasites" and undesirables.

Maybe there's a lesson there. i.e. stop calling other race and religion bad names. It does not end with name calling!

Just look at Trump and his banning of Muslims. 

-----------------

Syria has always been on the cards for the US and its allies. As far back as 2005 they were planning it. 

It's since become a series of proxy wars. Not just between the US and Russia, that's just one of them. But between Saudi Arabia and Iran; Turkey and the Kurds.

From the little that I heard of Syria, it was a secular society. There were elections, just so happen that the Assads always win gov't. I guess we're better because ours switch between the Liberals and Labor now and again. 

Another report I heard for the war in Syria was that the Saudi and Qatari wanted a pipeline into Syria. Assad says no because he sides with the bad godless commies in Moscow who doesn't want a competitor for their fossil into Europe. 

Hence, it's all about freedom and democracy and god's beautiful babies.


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I have never heard of "The Intercept". You can quote anyone you like but that doesn't make them correct.
> 
> 
> 80 people killed today in Syria by a roadside bomb.
> ...




Scahill is one of the few real journalists working in the Middle East. I'd take his investigation over any other "news" organisation's quoting of the Pentagon or the Kremlin's figures.

Not all bombings and violence are done by the Allies [I think the prefer term is the Coalition of the Willing]. So let's not pick sides and argue whose murder is "better" for the dead.

Though it is quite incredible that we think any country have the right to decide whether the gov't of another country get to stay or go. Imagine China or Russia or North Korea decides, in their infinite wisdom, and all for our own good, that our gov't ought to be replaced by people who they find more agreeable. What would we do? Agree with them?


----------



## SirRumpole (17 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Though it is quite incredible that we think any country have the right to decide whether the gov't of another country get to stay or go. Imagine China or Russia or North Korea decides, in their infinite wisdom, and all for our own good, that our gov't ought to be replaced by people who they find more agreeable. What would we do? Agree with them?




It depends on what you think is the better form of government, democracy , imperfect as it is, or rule by despots. 

I know which one I would prefer, how about you ?


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It depends on what you think is the better form of government, democracy , imperfect as it is, or rule by despots.
> 
> I know which one I would prefer, how about you ?




So if China think "socialism" like theirs is better for us, they have the right to replace our democracy and capitalist form of gov't?

It's illegal, under international law, and probably under most people's common sense, to interfere in other people's homeland. Even if it's done for their own good.

But say democracy and all that freedom is worth it. Name one country that's better off since their dictator was taken out.

The estimated 2 million dead Iraqis might not think it's a good idea to overthrow their dictator. Not that they like the bastard, but it's better than not dying. And is there democracy or peace in Iraq? Maybe once the oil ran out or something.

Just take a look at the US. Half its population is literally poor. Some 300 of its cities are drinking lead-poisoned water from old and corroded piping. Some 7 million of its own children goes to bed hungry... but sure, they'd go half way round the world to liberate and bring democracy to brown Muslims.

All those trillions of dollars show how much the US gov't love other people's freedom.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Name one country that's better off since their dictator was taken out.




Germany ?


----------



## SirRumpole (17 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's illegal, under international law, and probably under most people's common sense, to interfere in other people's homeland. Even if it's done for their own good.




So if China decided to convert us to our way of government, it would be illegal for the US to come in and help us ?

It certainly would be 'illegal' for China to invade us, but hey what is international law if they want our resources ?

International Law is rubbish, countries only observe it when it is in their interests to do so.


----------



## noco (17 April 2017)

We are already being invaded along with the rest of the Western world by Islam....Isn't that against International law and what is the useless UN doing about it?

NOTHING.

So we will just have to take the law into our own hands.....I believe there is already a civilian  army building up because our useless government are blind in one eye and can't see out the other.


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So if China decided to convert us to our way of government, it would be illegal for the US to come in and help us ?
> 
> It certainly would be 'illegal' for China to invade us, but hey what is international law if they want our resources ?
> 
> International Law is rubbish, countries only observe it when it is in their interests to do so.




If we Aussies invite the US to come to our aid in that scenario, then it is not illegal. 

For the US, or China or any country, to wake up one day and decided they don't like what our dear leaders is doing in Canberra... so they thought to tell them, and us plebs, to either vacate or else they'll send in the marines. That'd be illegal.

So take Assad and his Syria. Whatever we think of Assad, it's his country and his people. So what right does anyone have to decide he should be removed?

Likewise, whatever we think of Russia and Iran, the government of Syria invited those two in to aid them against what they consider invaders. hmmm... I guess they don't know what they're talking about. We're the good guys who want freedom and democracy for all people, including the Saudis' Arabia.


Yes, true that International Laws are for fun and locking up African dictators or something. But it is a law agreed to by most of the countries of the world.

To break it mean we don't really have any legal basis to talk about upholding law and order and rule of law and freedom and stuff. That'd be like a gangster going into our home because they can and there's nothing the police can do about it. Just because they can does not make it right.


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

noco said:


> We are already being invaded along with the rest of the Western world by Islam....Isn't that against International law and what is the useless UN doing about it?
> 
> NOTHING.
> 
> So we will just have to take the law into our own hands.....I believe there is already a civilian  army building up because our useless government are blind in one eye and can't see out the other.




Islam couldn't even invade their own country, forget about taking on another in their home turf.

Again noco, it's talks like that that permit the slaughtering of innocent people. Might be a good idea to not denigrate an entire people. It never end well. And that's not being politically correct. It's just being correct.


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Germany ?




That's a long time between drinks. I mean, the US had been involved in at least 200 intervention abroad since WWII, according to Gore Vidal, and the only instance is Germany. 

Well, there's Japan and South Korea I guess. 

But those examples are not quite the exception, and its success was not intended anyway.

Take Germany... the Allied didn't go in to liberate the German people. They went in to smash their enemy to kingdom come.

Then as Berlin fell, Stalin's Soviet and US divvy up Germany and most of Europe among themselves.

In one of his lectures in the 90s - in his collected works, Understanding Power - Chomsky points out the US plan the post-war world. It is quite an eye opener for those who want to look into Rea'l Politik at work.

Again, this is not going against Americans or the West or whatever... it's what imperial powers do, all of them. 

So start with that generous Marshall Plan.. the one we're all told was the reason Europe managed to rebuild itself.

Turns out that the US rigged the system. They give incentives and other enticements so that practically all the capital of Europe freely flow to the US. You know, the rich European elite and anyone with any savings... their capital was taken out of Europe and invested into US industries.

Then Europeans were forced to take on loans from the US through that Marshall Plan. Loans come with interests and conditions. Conditions like having to buy American made manufacturing, singing over military bases and other installations.

This was confirmed in a book and lecture - Global Minotaur [?] - by the former Greek Finance Minister, that Marxist with the motorbike who was forced to resigned a couple years ago. 

But anyway, like you said, all countries do whatever serves their interests. Though we could argue that it better serves their interests, i.e. make them more money, if they do things other than blowing people's country's up. But what the heck do we plebs know about grand strategies and power.

Seeing how that's the case, it's still a bit much to believe that anyone's in the ME to free the Muslims of their dictators. I mean, if general observations about imperial power isn't enough, just look and see what dictators are still our best friend over there. Yah, they're the ones who take orders from us rather than from Moscow or Beijing. 

That and when your actions kinda cause the death of some 2 million people and pushing tens of millions more into refugee camps... you might want to stop and rethink whether your good work is producing the desired good results. Or maybe their deaths are sacrifices we're willing to make, for their own good. 

Dam, you can't make these stuff up.


----------



## noco (17 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Islam couldn't even invade their own country, forget about taking on another in their home turf.
> 
> Again noco, it's talks like that that permit the slaughtering of innocent people. Might be a good idea to not denigrate an entire people. It never end well. And that's not being politically correct. It's just being correct.




We have been invaded by boats landing on our shores and Gillard allowed it all to happen.

One day you will learn the hard way when it is all too late.


----------



## luutzu (17 April 2017)

noco said:


> We have been invaded by boats landing on our shores and Gillard allowed it all to happen.
> 
> One day you will learn the hard way when it is all too late.




If they're invading, they won't be asking for permission.
Not on a fishing boat that barely float;
Not on bended knees saying they're fleeing war and famine.

Have been reading Dr Seuss 


Know how I, like most other Australians newbie, was raised up in a predominantly Christian country? Even then we're still not buying the bs about Christianity and all its miracles. Good luck with Islam and their promise of death and destruction to the infidels - with no alcohol! 

Multiple wives are pretty cool. But then you'd have to pay parental care until the kids are eighteen.


----------



## Tisme (18 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> I answered that before noco.
> 
> 
> 
> Just so you know, no country ever fought another country because of its religion.




I think you are cherry picking incidentals over the core reasons for wars like those that beset e.g Holy Roman Empire, the Three Kingdoms, etc


----------



## SirRumpole (18 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> I think you are cherry picking incidentals over the core reasons for wars like those that beset e.g Holy Roman Empire, the Three Kingdoms, etc




Israel- Palestine
Iran-Iraq


----------



## luutzu (18 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> I think you are cherry picking incidentals over the core reasons for wars like those that beset e.g Holy Roman Empire, the Three Kingdoms, etc




If I read that right, and remember this is an ESL guy reading, no. 

Religion are just incidental to war. All wars are for resources and dominance. Everything else are just use to disguise that core underlying reason.

I mean, it's hard to inspire soldiers - the guys who will have to kill and die for you - to tell them that they're doing it for the King or Emperor's; or the rich and their corporation's self-aggrandisement. The plebs just won't do it. They'd say stupid stuff like: you guys got castles and serfs; you jackazzes jets around the world like money doesn't matter... and you want us to die so you can have more of that?

So you wrap in more noble goals. Like freedom, liberty, God, clash of civilisation, good against evil.

That and make life at home so insecure, jobs so hard to come by that the poor will sign up to fight for good and hopefully get out of their poverty cycle or die trying.


----------



## luutzu (18 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Israel- Palestine
> Iran-Iraq




Iran-Iraq weren't really religious. 

Saddam was secular. He only put a Koranic phrase on Iraq's flag after Kuwait or something. To show that it's the West fighting Islam rather than just fighting him and his oil. 

Iran is a theocracy. It was a democracy until the CIA thought to replace its president with a more enlightened Shah. 

Israel-Palestine are somewhat religious, but the people fighting it only uses religion, and a whole lot of racism and abuse of history, to further their ambition. I mean, there weren't such thing as the Arabs/Mulims hating the Jews because their religion says so. Remember that the Palestinians were the more generous of people when Hitler kick out the Jews - they take a lot of Jewish refugees into Palestine when other Christian nations thought naaa.

It was only after WWII when Truman and his Evangelical upbringing thought the Jews ought to have most of Palestine as their homeland - like God intended - that the Palestinians thought wtf? So historic Palestine was carved up, and backed by the UN and US military might, the God kings of Israel slowly expand and today totally subjugate the Palestinians.

So while religion is heavily used, it's just old fashion imperialism and genocide.


----------



## dutchie (18 April 2017)

Charming religion........

*Mohammad Shakir pleads guilty to marrying girl, 14, in Melbourne mosque*

A man who married a 14-year-old girl in Melbourne’s southeast has pleaded guilty to an offence under the marriage act.

Mohammad Shakir this morning entered a plea of guilty to going through with a marriage ceremony with a person not of marriageable age over the incident in September last year at Noble Park.

The Melbourne Magistrates Court heard Mr Shakir was previously charged with sexually penetrating a child under the age of 16 and being a party to a forced marriage.

The charges were withdrawn today and the new charge under the marriage act was entered instead.

It carries a maximum penalty of five years’ imprisonment.

The Iman who is alleged to have carried out the ceremony is due to appear before court next month for a contested hearing.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...e/news-story/737080203e2d8debbffb744e1dc95f1d


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## Tisme (18 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> If I read that right, and remember this is an ESL guy reading, no.
> 
> Religion are just incidental to war. All wars are for resources and dominance. Everything else are just use to disguise that core underlying reason.
> 
> ...





NO they were fighting for survival of their religious preferences


----------



## Tisme (18 April 2017)

dutchie said:


> Charming religion........
> 
> *Mohammad Shakir pleads guilty to marrying girl, 14, in Melbourne mosque*
> 
> ...




We'll get told the law has sorted it out, but how about the deterrent that should have been in place in the first instance? They won't get pinged because the authorities are too worried about being labelled xenophobes and their personal lives being threatened by barbarians we invited in.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> We'll get told the law has sorted it out, but how about the deterrent that should have been in place in the first instance? They won't get pinged because the authorities are too worried about being labelled xenophobes and their personal lives being threatened by barbarians we invited in.




So he gets off a charge of rape for a softer sentence under the Marriage Act ?

Not much justice there.


----------



## luutzu (18 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> NO they were fighting for survival of their religious preferences




Yes, but only if they're the weaker state that's being invaded. And only if religion is the main differentiation between them and the invaders.

So if a Christian kingdom takes on another Christian kingdom; or another Warring State taking on the other Warring State... religion won't play so prominent a role in the need to fight. It'll be fighting and dying for the fatherland, the motherland, the king, the emperor... and just plain old freedom.

When you're asking the powerful state that's doing the invading... it's either doing so to save the savages; or save the savages from their bad savage strong man; or save and liberate and bring civilisation to the weak and the soon to be dead.

At end of the day, wars are fought for material resources, strategic dominance, or just the smell of napalm and blood in the morning for what Adam Smith called the Masters of Mankind.

The plebs among the powerful states get to feel special about doing great deeds; the plebs among the weaker state get to be call terrorists, rebels and most will die or send into slavery.

End of lesson.


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## noco (20 April 2017)

No doubt the Islamic radicals would love to behead this Sheik Mohammad Tawhidi..

But he does make sense and I trust Government heeds his advice and that is an inquiry into radical Islam in Australia....He is fully in favor of deportation if they don't toe the line.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/3508786...mic-leaders-be-deported-from-australia/#page1


----------



## Tisme (20 April 2017)

noco said:


> No doubt the Islamic radicals would love to behead this Sheik Mohammad Tawhidi..
> 
> But he does make sense and I trust Government heeds his advice and that is an inquiry into radical Islam in Australia....He is fully in favor of deportation if they don't toe the line.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/3508786...mic-leaders-be-deported-from-australia/#page1





Well we have just witnessed Jakarta's election that was won along religious grounds, so there's 5.8 million people who can't shake a bad habit right there.

And don't forget Noco, it is Muslim's duty to lie to the enemy = non Muslim's. Which is why you can't believe any of them, including this bloke and other "wolves in sheep clothing" talking heads like Susan Carland, Waleed Aly, Yassmin Abdel-Magied, etc


----------



## luutzu (20 April 2017)

noco said:


> No doubt the Islamic radicals would love to behead this Sheik Mohammad Tawhidi..
> 
> But he does make sense and I trust Government heeds his advice and that is an inquiry into radical Islam in Australia....He is fully in favor of deportation if they don't toe the line.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/3508786...mic-leaders-be-deported-from-australia/#page1




The first thing a gov't need advise on is how to spy on everyone and what prisons (and other punishments) are for.


----------



## qldfrog (20 April 2017)

another interesting fact that the fake news we are fed daily by our journos would like us to forget:
you remember the crazy drugged etc guy who mowed people in Melbourne a couple of weeks ago:
make your own mind:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-...gasoulas-tells-court-i-am-the-saviour/8454290


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## qldfrog (20 April 2017)

and let's not forget http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw...n/news-story/0c057cf80c7300e4fb5dc16b0fd66b34


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## qldfrog (20 April 2017)

qldfrog said:


> and let's not forget http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw...n/news-story/0c057cf80c7300e4fb5dc16b0fd66b34



so there were 2 terror attacks resulting in murders in the last month on own soil, in the name of islam, yet ask someone in the street if they are aware of any..talk about fake news...


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## noco (22 April 2017)

This is the son of the Hamas leader in Palestine speaking some home truths.


----------



## luutzu (22 April 2017)

noco said:


> This is the son of the Hamas leader in Palestine speaking some home truths.





Seriously noco, you really have to stop subscribing to whatever news and opinion outlet you're on. 

Using a "moderate", "reformed", "former" Muslim to attack Islam isn't an legitimate form of reasoning. You can't use a Muslim to bash other Muslims with the same old bs, but imply that what is said must be true because a Muslim is saying it.

There's a doco - The Green Prince - about some son of a Hamas leader the Israeli managed to turn. Maybe this is the guy? If so, you know how when you've been a spy and your people/side hates you but you got to feed yourself and your family? Who else can you turn to?

What's been happening in the West Bank and Gaza is disgusting. The kind of war crimes the Palestinians have to put up with. Get educated on the subject before posting stuff man.

Even the South African gov't are saying what the Palestinian is being put through in the occupied territories is worst than Apartheid. And they said that recently when Israel try to bring them in to show how insulting the UN report is to compare Israel to Apartheid S.Africa.

Some people have morality and conscience; others just don't have any shiet to give; then there are most who aren't aware of reality so just repeat propaganda. 

You'd be surprise to know that many of Israel's harshest critics are Jewish. Some even live in Israel. And no, they're not self-hating Jews. Just people of conscience.


----------



## noco (23 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Seriously noco, you really have to stop subscribing to whatever news and opinion outlet you're on.
> 
> Using a "moderate", "reformed", "former" Muslim to attack Islam isn't an legitimate form of reasoning. You can't use a Muslim to bash other Muslims with the same old bs, but imply that what is said must be true because a Muslim is saying it.
> 
> ...




If you don't like what I post ...stiff sh$t......If you like the Palestinians, then go and live with them but don't I knock Israel....I don't know why you ever migrated to Australia really....On many occasions you come over as anti Australian when you show protection for Muslims.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> Using a "moderate", "reformed", "former" Muslim to attack Islam isn't an legitimate form of reasoning.




Why not ? If any white Anglo Saxon criticises Islam you say they are full of bias and bs, now one of their own criticises Islam and you say he is full of bias and bs ?

Ergo, yo think that Islam is unable to be criticised by anyone and is therefore blameless ?

Seriously luu, you need to take a look at the way Islam operates. It's a power structure with the wolves leading the sheep and everyone not in the club is fair game for either conversion or death and the reason they are most likely to succeed are people such as yourself who paper up the cracks for them and put whitewash on top of their glaring ideological arrogance.


----------



## Tisme (23 April 2017)

noco said:


> If you don't like what I post ...stiff sh$t......If you like the Palestinians, then go and live with them but don't I knock Israel....I don't know why you ever migrated to Australia really....On many occasions you come over as anti Australian when you show protection for Muslims.





There's no need for that Noco. luutzu is entitled to his own opinion, especially when it makes my post look good. Remember that his family fled a country that controlled conversations and threatened their very existence if dissident..... we don't do that here.


----------



## Tisme (23 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Why not ? If any white Anglo Saxon criticises Islam you say they are full of bias and bs, now one of their own criticises Islam and you say he is full of bias and bs ?
> 
> Ergo, yo think that Islam is unable to be criticised by anyone and is therefore blameless ?
> 
> Seriously luu, you need to take a look at the way Islam operates. It's a power structure with the wolves leading the sheep and everyone not in the club is fair game for either conversion or death and the reason they are most likely to succeed are people such as yourself who paper up the cracks for them and put whitewash on top of their glaring ideological arrogance.





Obviously it's charismatic to the vulnerable and weak minded. Everytime I look at Susan Carland I shake my head at the thought that someone gifted with an Anglo mind would trash it........


----------



## noco (23 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> There's no need for that Noco. luutzu is entitled to his own opinion, especially when it makes my post look good. Remember that his family fled a country that controlled conversations and threatened their very existence if dissident..... we don't do that here.




Luu is entitled to his opinion but he does believe I am entitled to mine.

I was born in Australia...My parents were born in Australia and my grand parents came from England and Ireland in 1870....I am a true blue Aussie and it bugs me when I get provoked by an immigrant from another country who continuously runs to the defense of any Islamic post presented by some of our  ASF members.....A movement which is hell bent on making our life a misery with their threats and intimidation of wanting to take over Australia and introduce Sharia law.....Muslims refuse to assimilate into our community and are slowly taking over areas in Sydney which like in the UK and some European countries will be become NO GO ZONES....Abuse of women and children by Muslim men is rife in Australia and should not be tolerated.......Every day there is something happening with Muslims......Imans making vile threats on FB and the ABC.....If  they can't live by our laws and wean themselves from the the generous welfare system here in Australia, then they should be deported.

I am certainly not racist......I sponsored and married a Filipino lady in 1982 an we have had a wonderful 35 years together......We then sponsored her brother 1990 and another sister in 1992......We fed, clothed and gave her brother board and lodgings while we paid for and put him through a 2 year computer/computer course.....We have 3000 Filipinos here in Townsville along with many other cultures who have assimilated into the community without any of the hassles reportedly received of Muslims in the major cities.

So I think I have done my fair share of sponsored immigrants .....Can any other members match it?


----------



## dutchie (23 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> Obviously it's charismatic to the vulnerable and weak minded. Everytime I look at Susan Carland I shake my head at the thought that someone gifted with an Anglo mind would trash it........



stupid is as stupid does


----------



## Tisme (23 April 2017)

noco said:


> Luu is entitled to his opinion but he does believe I am entitled to mine.
> 
> I was born in Australia...My parents were born in Australia and my grand parents came from England and Ireland in 1870....I am a true blue Aussie and it bugs me when I get provoked by an immigrant from another country who continuously runs to the defense of any Islamic post presented by some of our  ASF members.....A movement which is hell bent on making our life a misery with their threats and intimidation of wanting to take over Australia and introduce Sharia law.....Muslims refuse to assimilate into our community and are slowly taking over areas in Sydney which like in the UK and some European countries will be become NO GO ZONES....Abuse of women and children by Muslim men is rife in Australia and should not be tolerated.......Every day there is something happening with Muslims......Imans making vile threats on FB and the ABC.....If  they can't live by our laws and wean themselves from the the generous welfare system here in Australia, then they should be deported.
> 
> ...




It still behoves you to accept luutzu's right to make a fool of himself.

Insofar as matching your genealogy well yes mine goes back to very early 1800's in Oz and my tree traces back to the powerful that hung off the Plantagenets and to present day toffs.

My home was like a united nations of races up until recently.... which obviously gives me the right to be a racist.


----------



## luutzu (23 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Why not ? If any white Anglo Saxon criticises Islam you say they are full of bias and bs, now one of their own criticises Islam and you say he is full of bias and bs ?
> 
> Ergo, yo think that Islam is unable to be criticised by anyone and is therefore blameless ?
> 
> Seriously luu, you need to take a look at the way Islam operates. It's a power structure with the wolves leading the sheep and everyone not in the club is fair game for either conversion or death and the reason they are most likely to succeed are people such as yourself who paper up the cracks for them and put whitewash on top of their glaring ideological arrogance.




I criticises Islam - as a religion - the same way I'd criticise any other religion. Yea, all religion are the same in their fantasy, voodoo, magic and unicorn; all the same in their power structure and witchcraft.

To take those parts of Islam out, look at terrorism by Muslims, then conclude that Islam is vile therefore all Muslims are bad (with very few exception, and those are just waiting to explode)... that total bs.

Maybe do a count of how many people have been killed in wars the Western, most civilised, most noble Christians have been involved in. Wars not just against the savages and liberation, but also wars among themselves. It's a very big number. 

Should we now say all White/Western/Christian people are barbaric and vile? Or maybe it's just imperialism at work?


----------



## luutzu (23 April 2017)

noco said:


> Luu is entitled to his opinion but he does believe I am entitled to mine.
> 
> I was born in Australia...My parents were born in Australia and my grand parents came from England and Ireland in 1870....I am a true blue Aussie and it bugs me when I get provoked by an immigrant from another country who continuously runs to the defense of any Islamic post presented by some of our  ASF members.....A movement which is hell bent on making our life a misery with their threats and intimidation of wanting to take over Australia and introduce Sharia law.....Muslims refuse to assimilate into our community and are slowly taking over areas in Sydney which like in the UK and some European countries will be become NO GO ZONES....Abuse of women and children by Muslim men is rife in Australia and should not be tolerated.......Every day there is something happening with Muslims......Imans making vile threats on FB and the ABC.....If  they can't live by our laws and wean themselves from the the generous welfare system here in Australia, then they should be deported.
> 
> ...




Noco, do you know much about the Israeli-Palestinian issue? You do not sound like you do. So maybe look into it before repeating propaganda bs.

I've looked quite extensively into it, and most of the critics of Israel are themselves Jewish - and no, that does not mean they automatically know what they're talking about, unlike your tendency to parade "former" Muslims who know the evil of their religion. 

So before you go along with war criminals and their open prison policy, denying an entire people of proper food, water, sanitation, liberty... but then parade around like a "democracy" living "in the jungle". 

If you want to keep being other people's useful idiot, go ahead.

I don't know what it mean to be a true blue Australian, but it doesn't seem being played like an idiot is part of it.

Yea, you're not a racist. But you certainly are Islamophobic. You either heard or read bs stories about Muslims in Australia then somehow believe all of it. Then go on about Muslims, all of them, being evil and bad... How are they bad? Oh, because the terrorists among them kill people. 

Yea, if you find the bad and terrorist among any race, then use those as representative of their entire race/religion.


----------



## luutzu (23 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> It still behoves you to accept luutzu's right to make a fool of himself.
> 
> Insofar as matching your genealogy well yes mine goes back to very early 1800's in Oz and my tree traces back to the powerful that hung off the Plantagenets and to present day toffs.
> 
> My home was like a united nations of races up until recently.... which obviously gives me the right to be a racist.




It's easier to beat up on Muslims now a days. So yea, it is foolish to "defend Islam". And here I thought I was merely being a decent human being by not putting up with bs propaganda for endless war against an entire people.

I also criticises the Vietnamese Communist, does that make me a self-hating Viets? I've also criticise the South VNese gov't then, and their remnants here.

Maybe it is foolish. Should slap people on the back and smile like they're your best friend. Make more money that way.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> To take those parts of Islam out, look at terrorism by Muslims, then conclude that Islam is vile therefore all Muslims are bad (with very few exception, and those are just waiting to explode)... that total bs.




Is it valid to seperate people and their ideology ? I don't believe it is valid in this country where people choose to have a particular ideology and they can therefore choose not to have it.

So what do we say about people who choose to believe  that God is for them only, that women are inferior, that girls shouldn't go to school , that white women are there to be raped by them because that's what their religion says ?

OK, not all of them are that extreme, but still they haven't got the sense to realise that their religion is not setting them up to do good, but quite the opposite, and that goes for lunatics in the Christian and Jewish churches as well.

That doesn't mean we should not tolerate private religious observance, just that religion in general should be kept in a box and not allowed to intrude into general society. And if that means expelling some of these radical  preachers and making schools religion free, all the better.


----------



## luutzu (23 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Is it valid to seperate people and their ideology ? I don't believe it is valid in this country where people choose to have a particular ideology and they can therefore choose not to have it.
> 
> So what do we say about people who choose to believe  that God is for them only, that women are inferior, that girls shouldn't go to school , that white women are there to be raped by them because that's what their religion says ?
> 
> ...




If people commit crime, our court and security will deal with them. And they will not take Allah told me to do it; voices in my head tells me; God says it's alright... as a valid excuse.

So if "their ideology" is criminal, they better drop it or use other legal means to change that law.

So how does Muslims or any other religion ought to be banned? We're a free society, people should have the freedom to do whatever makes them happy as long as it does not harm other people or society or existing law.


----------



## noco (23 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> If people commit crime, our court and security will deal with them. And they will not take Allah told me to do it; voices in my head tells me; God says it's alright... as a valid excuse.
> 
> So if "their ideology" is criminal, they better drop it or use other legal means to change that law.
> 
> So how does Muslims or any other religion ought to be banned? We're a free society, people should have the freedom to do whatever makes them happy as long as it does not harm other people or society or existing law.




Luu, I can see it is pretty hopeless trying to convince you how evil the Islamic movement has become.

Yes, we are a free society and we have been very generous to all immigrants whether they are here legally or illegally but we do expect them to respect our way of life, abide by  our laws and respect out Nations flag...We also expect them to assimilate into our society and be allowed to marry non Muslims.....We do not like the way they have their own Muslim schools in Australia where they brain wash children 5 times a day with the Koran......They brain wash them to believe Christians and infidels are evil and must be eliminated.......What sort of  children do we need with that in their  minds when they leave school and become teenagers.....Do you condone what is happening in France, the UK and other parts of Europe where young Muslim teenagers believe from their teachings that it is their right  to gang rape young Christian girls?

The majority here in Australia do not condone FGM, the beating of wives and the marriage between an old Muslim man and a 9 year old Muslim girl.

We do not like the continue use of Muslim street demonstrations and the odd lone wolf Muslim running down people in the street....You say the Australian courts of law deal with those incidents but they should not happen in the first place.

Israel is the only democracy in the  ME in a  Muslim world and the Arabs are hell bent on wiping Israel off the face of the Earth....The Palestinians can send 3000 rockets into Israel and wonder why the Israelis retaliate.......If you believe in free society why can't the Muslims allow Israel to live in peace.....You seem to be one sided there.

I have probably wasted my time typing all of this because you will no doubt continue to defend an evil society when ever you can.


----------



## Tisme (23 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's easier to beat up on Muslims now a days. So yea, it is foolish to "defend Islam". And here I thought I was merely being a decent human being by not putting up with bs propaganda for endless war against an entire people.
> 
> I also criticises the Vietnamese Communist, does that make me a self-hating Viets? I've also criticise the South VNese gov't then, and their remnants here.
> 
> Maybe it is foolish. Should slap people on the back and smile like they're your best friend. Make more money that way.




Gotcha


----------



## luutzu (23 April 2017)

noco said:


> Luu, I can see it is pretty hopeless trying to convince you how evil the Islamic movement has become.
> 
> Yes, we are a free society and we have been very generous to all immigrants whether they are here legally or illegally but we do expect them to respect our way of life, abide by  our laws and respect out Nations flag...We also expect them to assimilate into our society and be allowed to marry non Muslims.....We do not like the way they have their own Muslim schools in Australia where they brain wash children 5 times a day with the Koran......They brain wash them to believe Christians and infidels are evil and must be eliminated.......What sort of  children do we need with that in their  minds when they leave school and become teenagers.....Do you condone what is happening in France, the UK and other parts of Europe where young Muslim teenagers believe from their teachings that it is their right  to gang rape young Christian girls?
> 
> ...




A carpenter would use a hammer to build a home; a psycho could use the same hammer to knock people's head in. Do we blame the hammer for good or evil?

Religion, Islam or Christianity or even Scientology, could be a way people find peace and some sort of assurance. You know, pray for their family's health or hitting that Lotto. Or... or it could be use to evade tax, or be use to organise and unify a group of people into an army with God/Allah/Buddha on their side etc. etc.

So if you're serious about a debate on religion, call VC back in. If you want to pick Islamic terrorists, murderer, child rapist and all the nasty thing that Muslims criminals does... then attribute that to their religion rather than just them going psychotic, then join One Nation where you'll soon enough get to beat up on other minorities too.

No one's condoning or excusing crimes and terrorism, by Muslim or Christians or anyone. You just got to not blame an entire 1/4 of humanity so that our warmongers and war profiteers can "protect" us and kill millions directly, hundreds of millions indirectly through the famine and general cancer, birth defects and destroyed infrastructure and civil societies war tend to cause. 

-----------

Israel is not a democracy. It's an apartheid state. You know, one set or rules for Jews, one for non-Jews. Kinda like segregated America, or maybe Australia under the White Australian policy. "Separate but equal", not equal but equal.

A democracy mean all citizens are treated equal, at least under the law. Not in Israel... where if you're a Muslim Israeli, you're not considered a "true Israeli".

3,000 rockets? Well at least they've changed the description from "Missiles".

All countries would want to wipe the other countries out. Question is, can they do it. With what army. But keep stealing people's land, take away all their water and chance of just living a normal dignified life... people can't be pushed to live like dogs noco. Even dogs will bite back when they're pushed into a corner.

But ey, if the average Israeli are the ones paying the price when a terrorist strike back, that's that Israeli without a security detail's problem. That's a sacrifice the likes of Bibi is willing to make... that and spending most of the national budget on the military and security industry instead of other useless stuff like education and health.


----------



## luutzu (23 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> Gotcha




It's not a gotcha when I know what you mean McGee.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> If you want to keep being other people's useful idiot, go ahead.




LOL.


----------



## luutzu (23 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> LOL.




It's funny because I'm the idiot right?

If so, dunno Rumpole. It's pretty idiotic to believe that any country would ever spend a dollar, let alone trillions of dollars and thousands of their own soldier's live to "liberate" and bring democracy to people who the country's leadership doesn't particularly like in the first place.

Yes, we'd send in a barrage of tomahawks to save the children? But if other children from the same country managed to escape and cross the seas... go back home mate, you're not welcome, why are you running away when your country isn't at all being run by ISIS and tyrants we say we're going in to defend you against them?

So a hundred year war is cool; millions of people already being killed, we're cool... they're evil anyway, right?

That sounds a lot like what useful idiots are for. Very useful to have people like that in a democracy where if they protests, things might change.


----------



## noco (23 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> A carpenter would use a hammer to build a home; a psycho could use the same hammer to knock people's head in. Do we blame the hammer for good or evil?
> 
> Religion, Islam or Christianity or even Scientology, could be a way people find peace and some sort of assurance. You know, pray for their family's health or hitting that Lotto. Or... or it could be use to evade tax, or be use to organise and unify a group of people into an army with God/Allah/Buddha on their side etc. etc.
> 
> ...




As I said before, I and others are only wasting our breath with you.....You have a lot to learn but you don't seem to be taking any lessons from anybody.......You will never change with your set ideas so I am going to have to agree to disagree with you....Good luck with your ideology in the future.......You will just have to learn the hard way.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's funny because I'm the idiot right?




I don't think you are an idiot, you are quite compassionate but you only see one side of the story.

Religion is the curse of the world and we don't need more brainwashed people in this country regardless of whether they are likeable or not.

The trouble that the brainwashed people have caused in other countries is a warning of what will happen here if they get a hold and it already has. Monis et al are out there just waiting.


----------



## MARKETWINNER (23 April 2017)

Through out the history there had been peace loving kings, rulers and people. However some were not tolerant and didn’t respect others. Even today we find peace loving people from all races from Australia to the USA.Religion or political systems originated from somewhere. Many innocent civilians had to die in many regions through out the history as a result of actions of few including rulers, kings, political or religious heads etc. Good rulers, religious heads or kings made a bid difference by keeping all races together irrespective of differences in their thinking patterns. Those who had bitter experience during world war one and two don’t want to see third world war.

Will future generation learn from past mistakes?

Found very interesting link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1000–1499

*List of wars 1000–1499*


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## luutzu (23 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think you are an idiot, you are quite compassionate but you only see one side of the story.
> 
> Religion is the curse of the world and we don't need more brainwashed people in this country regardless of whether they are likeable or not.
> 
> The trouble that the brainwashed people have caused in other countries is a warning of what will happen here if they get a hold and it already has. Monis et al are out there just waiting.




There really is no reason for me to take one side of the story. If I have to pick a side, I'd just pick the side the media and most of our politicians are ramming on us.

For me to say that wait, maybe Islam and Muslims aren't all crazed terrorists mean I've looked from both sides already. What with not being a Muslim and all.

Like you, I would rather there aren't any religion. And we can mock and poke holes into Islam and any other religion and Creation stories when we bother to. But it is very different to basically condemning a group of people with all the horrific stuff some people who look and sound, profess to follow the same religion as they do... that's a step too far.

I mean, would we like it if, say, other people start blaming us for being crazy Christian by pointing to a few, you know, crazy Christian they see?

With regards to Monis and other Muslims... What our leadership have done is give crazy Muslims an excuse to make their crime more "noble" than what it is. So when Monis, a Muslims with criminal, murder, and a bunch of stuff he's about to be locked up for... instead of killing himself or go to prison... he use Islam and Jihad as a pretext to going crazy.

That's not to say there won't be actual terrorism by political/war terrorist from actual ISIS and other groups, all done by die hard Muslim Jahadist. But there is a difference between an act of war through terrorism than merely some Muslim whose domestic issues pushes him to the edge.


----------



## luutzu (23 April 2017)

noco said:


> As I said before, I and others are only wasting our breath with you.....You have a lot to learn but you don't seem to be taking any lessons from anybody.......You will never change with your set ideas so I am going to have to agree to disagree with you....Good luck with your ideology in the future.......You will just have to learn the hard way.




Where do you reckon I got my "ideology" from? Facts? Historians? Real journalists?

That's called research and understanding noco. 

Take Israel's last "war" on Gaza... Look into it. 

All those 3000 Palestinians weren't slaughtered because Hamas decided to fire "rockets" into Israel so Israel have to respond. Bloody Bibi Yahoo and his warmongers started it. 

That's not fiction or ideology. Just the facts.

I can go into more detail if you like; I can even link you a few interviews on YouTube from journalists and scholars who actually look into that particular "mowing the lawn" episode... or as a US arms depot in Israel was quoted as saying - removing the top soil.

Or look up Check Point, an older documentary at the countless checkpoints Israel sets up to basically make life more miserable for the Palestinians. 

And here why knowing these things are relevant to Australia and that treasured value: Israel exports those "security" know-how all over the world, Australia is a keen buyer. 

If you think it's just to keep the Muslims in line, good luck with that treasured freedom and civil rights here Down Under.


----------



## luutzu (23 April 2017)

Indonesian Muslims might get real evil real soon.

Seriously, a coup to replace Indonesia's president with the military? Orchestrated by Trump supporters and business partners, one in Indonesia and another in New York? Backing ISIS-inspired Indonesian terrorist?

This is right in Australia's backyard. Can you imagine the possible fallout if its civilian, democratic gov't disappeared and throw the country into a civil war?

Australia might become the next Turkey when most its neighbours' civilian gov't collapsed.


----------



## Tisme (24 April 2017)

Someone needs to come to the defence of the Muslims mentioned in this article written by an an obvious islamophobe....



> Christians also increasingly are fair game for intimidation by the militant LGBTI lobby, but for the most part, Christophobia is downplayed.




http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/re...s/news-story/2bb6f9a158146e963355a6da3adbe70a


----------



## luutzu (24 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> Someone needs to come to the defence of the Muslims mentioned in this article written by an an obvious islamophobe....
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/re...s/news-story/2bb6f9a158146e963355a6da3adbe70a




I love the kind of argument that says the other racists are bad and horrible, so why can't we also be racist and horrible too?

She meant, look what they did to innocent (Christians) who mind their own business. Why can't we good (Christian) do the same to their innocent Muslims. 

Someone should tell Miranda that it's not OK to attack anyone, from any faith. Full stop.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 April 2017)

luutzu said:


> I love the kind of argument that says the other racists are bad and horrible, so why can't we also be racist and horrible too?




 I didn't see that argument, the report was simply pointing out facts.

Have you seen any reports of Christians, and I mean real church going God bothering Christians not anyone you may describe as "white" going around attacking Muslims because of their faith ?

The fact is that Muslims form gangs and go around attacking people they don't like, so Islam is not a religion anymore, it's actually a terrorist organisation. That is what Islam motivates people to do so it's not something we want to grow in this country so that there are more of those idiots thinking they can take over the place.


----------



## luutzu (24 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I didn't see that argument, the report was simply pointing out facts.
> 
> Have you seen any reports of Christians, and I mean real church going God bothering Christians not anyone you may describe as "white" going around attacking Muslims because of their faith ?
> 
> The fact is that Muslims form gangs and go around attacking people they don't like, so Islam is not a religion anymore, it's actually a terrorist organisation. That is what Islam motivates people to do so it's not something we want to grow in this country so that there are more of those idiots thinking they can take over the place.




If Allah bothering Muslims were all thugs going out there to beat up and destroy anything non-Muslim, all the Churches around my place would have been defaced and all alcohol or non-Halal food would have been burnt down or something.

There's three Churches within a block radius of where I live. One of them is quite a big one. And down its street, a block away, is a pretty big Mosque where it's always crowded. 

If Muslims goes to Mosques to be taught to hate Christians and other faith, they'd be breaking down those churches right after their session. I mean, it's on the way to their car and it's right after a dose of hate, right?

And no, that article was more opinions and innuendo than facts. The only fact was that a Christian couple was beaten up by a Muslim gang. Then her citing of the rise in anti-Semitic racism... wink wink, it's the Muslims who hates the Jews, White and Christians couldn't possibly hate Jews right? They're brothers. 

Don't mistake this for defending Islam or thuggeries. Just we can't go blaming innocent people for the crimes of others. If we were to do that, all Australians would be in prison because criminals came from all ethnic and religious background.  

I mean, noco wouldn't want to be blamed for your beliefs, and neither would you for his. Aren't you two also White. I probably can't tell the difference.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2017)

Taxpayer monies at work: (of course the Universities already provide Muslim only rooms and toilets)



> Adelaide Muslim leader Waleed al-Khazrajy invited Senator Bernardi to meet him. He said a separate prayer room in the RAH site would cater to many workers and students. “The prayer rituals for the Muslims will consume most of the room and they will line up in lines as a gathering to conduct that prayer, which will probably interfere with other people’s presence in that room,” he said



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...e/news-story/1229d24d570b2015374134c09dadabab


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> If Allah bothering Muslims were all thugs going out there to beat up and destroy anything non-Muslim, all the Churches around my place would have been defaced and all alcohol or non-Halal food would have been burnt down or something.
> 
> There's three Churches within a block radius of where I live. One of them is quite a big one. And down its street, a block away, is a pretty big Mosque where it's always crowded.
> 
> ...





If you are going to saddle up and ride around with red necked cowboys you are going to be branded a red necked cowboy. None of us force Muslims to believe we should be expunged from the face of the earth, we don't force them into nonsence female uniforms of defiance, etc... it's their choice to parade their barbarity and primitivism so they have to own the criticism and distrust.


----------



## luutzu (2 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> If you are going to saddle up and ride around with red necked cowboys you are going to be branded a red necked cowboy. None of us force Muslims to believe we should be expunged from the face of the earth, we don't force them into nonsence female uniforms of defiance, etc... it's their choice to parade their barbarity and primitivism so they have to own the criticism and distrust.




That, or... or some people just mind their own business and some imperialist warmonger thought there's just too much oil and no proper military to defend it... so let's mobilise our superior military and take it. 

Can't convince a nation to move against innocent people living their backward ways - we're not living in the 1950s anymore. So you get the propaganda machine going and voila, evil terrorists with evil religion who for some reason don't like their land being invaded and their people slaughtered whenever. Dam terrorists! 

So there's that.

btw, saw a headline on Reuters that Hamas have now ceased to call for the destruction of Israel. Nevermind that they've done that a decade or so ago; never mind that Israeli security apparatus created Hamas to counter the PA in Gaza; never mind that Hamas was a political party that got democratically elected into power and former US president Jimmy Carter-led UN election supervisory body confirm the election was fair and balance... 

But do mind that, as Hillary Clinton recently regrets, you only permit election and recognise terrorists as "moderate" if you can control the outcome and of course like that outcome.


Anyway, a bit too simple with all these race and religion thing McGee. Your Irish blood would at least appreciate what the English blood was calling it not too long ago.


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> That, or... or some people just mind their own business and some imperialist warmonger thought there's just too much oil and no proper military to defend it... so let's mobilise our superior military and take it.
> 
> .




That was never a scenario to begin with my contrite friend.  You might like to revisit Ottoman Empires and beyond


----------



## luutzu (2 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> That was never a scenario to begin with my contrite friend.  You might like to revisit Ottoman Empires and beyond




We can go back to the Roman Empire, or the Hellenistic era of Alexander if you like. Same principles applied - bringing freedom, liberty, civilisation (and only a little tiny bit of force) to the savages.

Didn't the French and the British divvy up what was left of the Ottoman? Was using the ANZAC to take its motherland - Turkey? Then the US kinda took over British ME operating model once Hitler was gone?

Again, it's not a European or a white guy thing... just an imperial thing. I mean, even the little Vietnamese took over a few kingdoms - some 3/4 of modern day VN used to belong to the Champa, the Cambodian and a handful of other (now) minority people. 

War and empire. It's a nasty business where "great" men have no problem slaughtering millions just so there's a statue of themselves in some park getting shiet on by birds all day. That and in some history book where, depending on who's the author, your name get mentioned in good or bad lights.


----------



## noco (2 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Indonesian Muslims might get real evil real soon.
> 
> Seriously, a coup to replace Indonesia's president with the military? Orchestrated by Trump supporters and business partners, one in Indonesia and another in New York? Backing ISIS-inspired Indonesian terrorist?
> 
> ...





That video was a hoax and you fell for it.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-s...-military-files-lawsuit-over-hoax-coup-story/


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## luutzu (2 May 2017)

noco said:


> That video was a hoax and you fell for it.
> http://www.breitbart.com/national-s...-military-files-lawsuit-over-hoax-coup-story/




Breitbart is your source?

Its former chief became Trump's advisor when his campaign wasn't so well. He played a big part in Trump winning then Time Magazine got smart by doing an entire profile on him, calling him the real strategist who actually run the White House.

Trump didn't like it so fired the guy.

Oh yea, it's not a real news organisation. More commentary and bs than Murdoch's press.


----------



## noco (4 May 2017)

https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lisa/poll-do-you-want-ban-of-islamic-schools-in-australia


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## luutzu (4 May 2017)

noco said:


> https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lisa/poll-do-you-want-ban-of-islamic-schools-in-australia





Interesting interview with former US Sec of State Colin Powell's Chief of Staff.

Basically the war on Islamic terrorism is an excuse between the "great" powers and their grand strategies. That central Asia/Middle East is the focal point where three powers are going to be duking it out. 

Man, if we think Afghanistan was by the Soviets, further screwed under the Taliban, further flatten by the Alliance over the past sixteen years... if Wilkerson is right about what lies ahead between China, US and Russia confronting each other at this crossroad, it'll be a miracle if there's such a people as Afghani in another few decade.

Then there's the Asian satellites. Going to be smash, again, in another Cold War.


----------



## noco (7 May 2017)

This a shocking state of affairs and should be stopped.......If there was an increase in the GST, consumers would be shouting from the highest rough and the media would have a have  a ball.

The Government has to put a stop to  this Halal rip off........A Royal Commission is required into the Islamic activities in Australia.

http://www.pickeringpost.com/story/how-the-saudis-spend-your-grocery-money/4189


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## Jorgensen (7 May 2017)

And while they are about it...stop the gluten free ,organic and free range rorts.


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## Junior (7 May 2017)

I prefer actual data.  The increasing cost of housing, electricity, gas & water is a far far greater drain on your wallet than food in this country.  Can't blame any of those things on Islam though I guess.

Cost of food versus CPI in Australia






*http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/food-inflation*




> *Does Halal certification increase costs to consumers?*
> The cost of obtaining Halal certification varies depending on the product involved, the organisation from which certification is sought and whether the goods are for export or domestic consumption. However, the fees are often modest.
> 
> For large-scale manufacturing the cost of certification in the context of overall manufacturing, advertising and distribution costs has little, if any, impact on a product’s price. For example, in relation to Halal certification, the Senate Economics References Committee (the Committee) noted, in a 2015 report on third party certification of food that ‘evidence received by the committee overwhelmingly suggests that Halal certification does not result in increased food prices’.



http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...Library/pubs/rp/rp1617/Quick_Guides/HalalCert


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## noco (7 May 2017)

Junior said:


> I prefer actual data.  The increasing cost of housing, electricity, gas & water is a far far greater drain on your wallet than food in this country.  Can't blame any of those things on Islam though I guess.
> 
> Cost of food versus CPI in Australia
> 
> ...




So Junior, you are quite happy to give you money to the Muslims? 

*The way it works is this:  Muslims approach food producers and manufacturers of almost every item that's sold and insist that they pay an ongoing fee to be able to continue to sell their produce and goods as Halal Certified.


If the producers refuse, they will be threatened with exclusion from Islamic export markets and boycotted by Muslims in the home market. This has already happened in Australia with devastating results.


Those who still refuse are labelled as bigots and Islamophobes. These sums of money are not inconsequential, we are talking about up to $40,000 per month for a single chicken producer.


When all the food producers and manufacturers in Australia are added up, we are talking about an enormous transfer of wealth from non-Muslims to Muslims.


The most worrying aspect of this whole sorry affair is that we have no guarantee that the money is not being used to fund violent jihad around the world against both Muslims and non-Muslims. Given the amount of Islamic violence currently raging, this is a very real concern.*


----------



## noco (7 May 2017)

Under section 44 of the Australian constitution, people like Ed Husic, Anne Aly and Sam Dystriari should all be expelled from holding office  in Federal, State or Local government.....Husic took his oath on the Koran.

How come this government is not abiding by the constitution?

http://concit.org/muslims-cannot-be-elected-to-government/


----------



## noco (7 May 2017)

Only Pauline Hanson will do it...forget about the lefties like Shorten and Turnbull.

https://www.votocrat.com/natalie.ma...tralia-have-your-say-yes-or-no?source=sharing


----------



## Junior (8 May 2017)

noco said:


> So Junior, you are quite happy to give you money to the Muslims?
> 
> *The way it works is this:  Muslims approach food producers and manufacturers of almost every item that's sold and insist that they pay an ongoing fee to be able to continue to sell their produce and goods as Halal Certified.
> 
> ...




No, I'm not happy about that at all.  If indeed, there is an enormous transfer of wealth from Australia to funding violent jihad, then of course this is shocking.  But just because Pauline Hanson says so, or some 'Reclaim Australia' supporter writes it in his blog, does not make it true.  I'll rely on the facts.  The facts dictate that food is historically cheap in this country, and given there are close to zero Muslims in our Government who would support such a transfer of wealth, I really doubt there's much truth to these claims.

Seems far more likely they pay for certification for obvious reasons, to have the ability to export their products to Muslim countries and to increase their customer base.  There are 1 billion people on this planet who associate with the Muslim religion.  You be pretty dumb to refuse to pay a modest fee to have certification to be able to sell to this massive customer base.


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

Junior said:


> No, I'm not happy about that at all.  If indeed, there is an enormous transfer of wealth from Australia to funding violent jihad, then of course this is shocking.  But just because Pauline Hanson says so, or some 'Reclaim Australia' supporter writes it in his blog, does not make it true.  I'll rely on the facts.  The facts dictate that food is historically cheap in this country, and given there are close to zero Muslims in our Government who would support such a transfer of wealth, I really doubt there's much truth to these claims.
> 
> Seems far more likely they pay for certification for obvious reasons, to have the ability to export their products to Muslim countries and to increase their customer base.  There are 1 billion people on this planet who associate with the Muslim religion.  You be pretty dumb to refuse to pay a modest fee to have certification to be able to sell to this massive customer base.




You would have to be pretty bloody dumb not to realize where the trillion dollars a year world wide would be going to.....Where do you think they get the money from to build their big mosques?


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

Is this the beginning of a major overhaul of this ancient Islamic law?

This is really something coming out of Saudi Arabia......Will the others follow?....I guess we will have to wait and see.

http://www.paulgolding.uk/saudi-wom...-police-complaints-after-new-order-from-king/


----------



## luutzu (8 May 2017)

noco said:


> You would have to be pretty bloody dumb not to realize where the trillion dollars a year world wide would be going to.....Where do you think they get the money from to build their big mosques?




Businesses pay a fee to get certified to sell their product to more market, and that's somehow a conspiracy by the evil Muslims to fund terrorism. Forget that Kosher food get the same thing; or that all food manufacturer need quality inspection to see what goes into what. 

But alright, all that money to build Mosques... but then, if they're about terrorism, it doesn't seem like a good use of money to build Mosques instead of building WMD or shooting ranges or robotics and drones. But they have to use all that money on a place of worship! The nasty s o b. 

While we're into questioning everything, you and Pauline ever question why there's about 7 wars in the middle east right now noco? Why an estimated 4 million Afghani and Iraqi are dead since operation enduring freedom blah blah... Why tens of millions of Muslims are forced out of their home and into refugee camps all over the region? Why is Yemen is in a famine with tens of millions starving while the Saudis and its partners, like the US and UK, sell them weapons and coordinating intelligence, mid-air refuelling to bomb the lives out of Yemen. 

I guess the fact that all these are where the oil are kind of answer itself. That it's because Islam is evil and all these death and destruction on their people are for their own good.


----------



## Junior (8 May 2017)

noco said:


> You would have to be pretty bloody dumb not to realize where the trillion dollars a year world wide would be going to.....Where do you think they get the money from to build their big mosques?




Your theory is that businesses pay a massive fee for halal certification, to avoid being labelled as bigots.  Yet this money goes into funding terrorism and 'violent jihad', and these same businesses are not concerned about the reputational damage which would occur in this situation??

Ridiculous conspiracy theory.


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

Junior said:


> Your theory is that businesses pay a massive fee for halal certification, to avoid being labelled as bigots.  Yet this money goes into funding terrorism and 'violent jihad', and these same businesses are not concerned about the reputational damage which would occur in this situation??
> 
> Ridiculous conspiracy theory.




I trust some strong leader in the future will ban Halal certification.......It is not necessary here in Australia....It is an absolute racket.....Even blind Freddie can see that....If you were asked to pay and extra percentage on the GST you would be the first to scream about about.


----------



## Junior (8 May 2017)

There are a lot of things I have to pay for which I am not happy about.  I have to fund Age Pensions and discounted meds for retirees who, in some cases, are sitting in a debt free home worth $1mill+ which is exempt from means testing.  Us taxpayers get to fund their kids inheritance....seems unnecessary. 

I have to pay an absolute fortune for electricity & gas, so AGL Shareholders can receive bigger and bigger dividends each year, and because our Government only plans 3 years ahead.  I have to pay a fortune for water, so that an unused Desal plant can be maintained each year.  I have to pay $800 for car rego each year, so that I can drive at an average speed of 20km/h to work each morning, so the government can build massive freeways and then allow Transurban to impose tolls on them for the next 50 years, rather than building a fast & effective public transport system.

These things actually have a material cost and impact on people's lives in this country.

Halal cert is not a big impost on business, as paying this fee opens up massive export markets and hence boost sales.  I would think that by paying for this certification, this brings economies of scale and a reduction to the end price for consumers.  If it didn't, they wouldn't pay for the cert....it's business... they aren't paying it for no reason.  They also pay for the Made in Australia cert, Free Range, Kosher etc. etc.


----------



## Tisme (8 May 2017)

Be interesting to see if our electricity supply is Halal costed, because it's going to skyrocket for a second time this year and it's not the fault of Federal or State Govts so there.


----------



## luutzu (8 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Be interesting to see if our electricity supply is Halal costed, because it's going to skyrocket for a second time this year and it's not the fault of Federal or State Govts so there.




But that's the good kind of gouging. No government, no Muslims, just old fashion entrepreneurial and private enterprising goodness.

Recently heard some California Democratic congresswoman [Feinstein?] being asked by her constituent why it is she and the Dems do not support single-payer healthcare. It'd cheaper and cover everyone, even the poor, some 20 million (and soon to be 40 million) of whom aren't getting any health coverage.

The public servant tells her boss that she'd love to have it, but it would mean a "government takeover". Why would you want to not go broke when you're sick when you can have the freedom to choose death or your family going homeless.


----------



## Tisme (8 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> But that's the good kind of gouging. No government, no Muslims, just old fashion entrepreneurial and private enterprising goodness.
> 
> Recently heard some California Democratic congresswoman [Feinstein?] being asked by her constituent why it is she and the Dems do not support single-payer healthcare. It'd cheaper and cover everyone, even the poor, some 20 million (and soon to be 40 million) of whom aren't getting any health coverage.
> 
> The public servant tells her boss that she'd love to have it, but it would mean a "government takeover". Why would you want to not go broke when you're sick when you can have the freedom to choose death or your family going homeless.





You can't populate a country with tired, poor, huddled masses with breathing problems, who were the refuse of their own housing shortaged country and expect a whole lot of empathy for their fellow man. Their gene pool is one of selfish servitude so it's every man for himself unless their is a reward in making out a group hug is the right thing to do.


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

The first thing our government should do is close all Muslim schools.....But they are not listening.

Muslim kids are brainwashed 5 times per day that if you are a Christian or an infidel you must  be eliminated........Now when those kids become teenagers they put into practice and more......Go out and gang rape a young non-Muslim girl.


----------



## luutzu (8 May 2017)

noco said:


> The first thing our government should do is close all Muslim schools.....But they are not listening.
> 
> Muslim kids are brainwashed 5 times per day that if you are a Christian or an infidel you must  be eliminated........Now when those kids become teenagers they put into practice and more......Go out and gang rape a young non-Muslim girl.




Is that how brainwashing work? Teach them five times a day from kindie, wait til they hit the teen years then either join ISIS or a gang. 

Not sure what explain non-Muslim, non-religious people being psychotic or mildly racist.


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Is that how brainwashing work? Teach them five times a day from kindie, wait til they hit the teen years then either join ISIS or a gang.
> 
> Not sure what explain non-Muslim, non-religious people being psychotic or mildly racist.




You sure got that right...... If you are Non- Muslims......Then you must be a Christian or an infidel.

Do you savvy?


----------



## Junior (8 May 2017)

noco said:


> The first thing our government should do is close all Muslim schools.....But they are not listening.
> 
> Muslim kids are brainwashed 5 times per day that if you are a Christian or an infidel you must  be eliminated........Now when those kids become teenagers they put into practice and more......Go out and gang rape a young non-Muslim girl.




There are at least 500,000 muslims in Australia.  That sure is a lot of gang-rapes and eliminations.


----------



## noco (8 May 2017)

Junior said:


> There are at least 500,000 muslims in Australia.  That sure is a lot of gang-rapes and eliminations.




Once again you are going from the sublime to the ridiculous....What else would anyone expect from your kind?


----------



## Tisme (9 May 2017)

This guy is rather agitated:


----------



## luutzu (9 May 2017)

noco said:


> You sure got that right...... If you are Non- Muslims......Then you must be a Christian or an infidel.
> 
> Do you savvy?




We've all been called worst, haven't we noco?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 May 2017)

A disgusting decision from a bunch of religious loonies.

Don't let it happen here.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2016/s4665402.htm

No doubt some will think this is all fine and is just making up for what Christians did 500 years ago.


----------



## luutzu (10 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> A disgusting decision from a bunch of religious loonies.
> 
> Don't let it happen here.
> 
> ...




Sounds like a typical political ploy of getting your opponent out of the race SirR. I mean he's a Chinese Christian in an Islamic non-Chinese country, yet *the people* voted him into office without forcing him to renounce Christianity or get a darker tan. So you cannot put Islamic intolerance on the Indonesian people for this one.

It goes without saying that of course there are intolerant Muslims in Indonesia, and the guy's political opponent know how to push their buttons to get them to get him out of the way.

This is why, as Machiavelli advised his Princes, to fake being religious and pious and benevolent. And by religious he mean adopt whatever bs religion is the dominant one the plebs follow. 

Hence, Obama got Christian religious soon after uni once he figured politic is for him. 

Hence, Donald freaking Trump almost cry tears about Assad killing "God's beautiful babies" after he launches two shiploads of Tomahawk at some place. You know, the same man who proudly recommend the killing of not just terrorists but their family too; same douche who banned Muslims and tell refugees to go fark themselves.

So this guy fancy himself a politician but doesn't know how the game is played. Unfortunately he pay a heavy the price and also have the world blame Muslims for being intolerant for having voted for him in the first place.


----------



## luutzu (10 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> This guy is rather agitated:





The guy sounds quite reasonable. Good on him.

I'm not sure why there are religious school funded mainly or in a major part by the public.

Just curious though, by the CAIR or whatever, does he mean those religious study public schools tend to hold a few weeks a year? I went to a public school and we had a few weeks of Bible study for those who choose to go. I'm assuming they also have ones for other religion too?


----------



## SirRumpole (10 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> yet *the people* voted him into office




The Muslims voted him out for religious reasons.


----------



## Tisme (10 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The Muslims voted him out for religious reasons.




The citizenry on an upward march to hope voted him in; the corrupted, fear and sheeple voted him out. 

Indonesia may not make it out of the moral bankruptcy and moribund stagnation of the past.


----------



## luutzu (10 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The Muslims voted him out for religious reasons.




They probably are also Muslim, but didn't do it because their religion told them to. Just the usual political game.

Take, for example, Elliot Spritzer, former NY Attorney General. He was too tough on the banks, taking them to court, suing and forcing them to settle with the regulators for hundreds of millions. Turned out the bank look up his account transaction details and knew about his likes for escorts. Spritzer was forced to resigned because a civilised democracy cannot obviously have an unfaithful AG serving some public good and getting some on the sides. Why that's moral bankruptcy.

Should we look at that case and laid the blame on his outster on Christian value and such? 

Was half asleep when I heard some Democracy Now news headline about suspicion that Trump's guy behind the attempted coup on Wodoko [?] is also behind this one. But I guess that's crazy conspiracy theory nutjob, it's Islam and hateful Muslims that voted him in, then voted him out once they realised he's Chinese and a Christian.


----------



## luutzu (10 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> The citizenry on an upward march to hope voted him in; the corrupted, fear and sheeple voted him out.
> 
> Indonesia may not make it out of the moral bankruptcy and moribund stagnation of the past.




Not if the US and "Western Value" meddles with it, no.

Guess who put Indonesia back a few centuries? And no, it's not that long ago.

I guess one way to loot and get fire-sale bargains is to burn the place down.


----------



## noco (12 May 2017)

Here is a case where 4 or 5 10 year old Muslims children threaten to behead a teacher at Punch Bowl School and no action is taken.......Why is there no action being taken.....There should be some sort of inquiry surely.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/3547198...heading-by-10-year-old-muslim-students/#page1


----------



## Tisme (12 May 2017)

noco said:


> .......Why is there no action being taken.....




Because the country is being run by migrant children who mistakenly think muslims share the same christian, pride and value systems Australia did when their parents came for a better life.


----------



## Tisme (12 May 2017)

Why would we want to extradite a wanker like this bloke? Wouldn't he be better doing a Brad Davis, serving a  Midnight Express lifetime in a Turkish hell hole?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/vi...s/news-story/441791908e828023184a6d8d00b546ac


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## SirRumpole (12 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Wouldn't he be better doing a Brad Davis, serving a Midnight Express lifetime in a Turkish hell hole?




YES.


----------



## luutzu (12 May 2017)

noco said:


> Here is a case where 4 or 5 10 year old Muslims children threaten to behead a teacher at Punch Bowl School and no action is taken.......Why is there no action being taken.....There should be some sort of inquiry surely.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/3547198...heading-by-10-year-old-muslim-students/#page1




Been through this exact case before didn't we? 4 and 5 year olds can be terrors, but come on. Terrorists going to cut a teacher's head off? How are they going to do that when their parents put a baby-safe lock on the knife drawers?


----------



## SirRumpole (12 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Been through this exact case before didn't we? 4 and 5 year olds can be terrors, but come on. Terrorists going to cut a teacher's head off? How are they going to do that when their parents put a baby-safe lock on the knife drawers?




It's not 4 or 5 YEAR OLDS, its 4 or 5 *10 year olds* who are quite capable of killing someone (Lord of the Flies). 

Anyway the fact that children are being indoctrinated with jihadi propaganda is of no concern to you ? Just a bit of fun ?


----------



## luutzu (12 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not 4 or 5 YEAR OLDS, its 4 or 5 *10 year olds* who are quite capable of killing someone (Lord of the Flies).
> 
> Anyway the fact that children are being indoctrinated with jihadi propaganda is of no concern to you ? Just a bit of fun ?




It is worrying to have anyone being indoctrinated towards violence and terrorism. And I am sure there might be some parents out there who might very well raise their kids that way. But to say that Islam or Muslims all do it, five times a day... does it each time they pray to their Allah. Any evidence of that?

Yup, over 1 billion people in the world somehow, for some reason, just decided to join and continue with a religion that teaches them nothing but hatred. 

If we bothered to do a count of wars of aggression (liberating the savages) over the last two thousand years, broken down by Christian kingdoms/states vs Muslims/Arab states. Not sure who'd "win" that one.

If we do the same but count dead bodies... I guess the West won because it's more technologically advanced. 

Ohhhh... that was a long, long, long time ago. Like way back until right now all over the Middle East, Africa, Eastern Europe, South America... .and soon, Asia Pacific.

Seriously, ignore for a moment that it's more factually accurate, it'd also make Western Civilisation look better if wars, terrorism and its death and destruction are blame on imperialist warmongers who mislead their country and people into unnecessary wars for land, money and other booties.

To blame it on the vileness of another religion versus our noble soles and kind deeds... we're fooling ourselves and making the world laugh out loud over it.


----------



## noco (13 May 2017)

The truth about Islam......A must listen.


----------



## Ves (13 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not 4 or 5 YEAR OLDS, its 4 or 5 *10 year olds* who are quite capable of killing someone (Lord of the Flies).



Love the Lord of the Flies reference.

I think the best part of it is that the book can legitimately be seen as a criticism of the violent indoctrination children are part of in Western civilization.  An indoctrination that Golding clearly argues is the reason for their deep-seated violent tendencies.

Strangely,  you seem to be using the book as an argument that Muslim children are dangerous with the implication that this applies to them...

... I don't think when Golding writes about the war cruiser turning up at the end he means that the people who disembark are Jihadis. Do you?


----------



## noco (13 May 2017)

Ves said:


> Love the Lord of the Flies reference.
> 
> I think the best part of it is that the book can legitimately be seen as a criticism of the violent indoctrination children are part of in Western civilization.  An indoctrination that Golding clearly argues is the reason for their deep-seated violent tendencies.
> 
> ...




Ves, you do not seem to understand that when those 10 year old kids are fully brain washed and leave the Muslim school and they are fully indoctrinated into the hate of Christians and infidels, they  will have the strength to perform their duty as preached to them from the Koran.
Things will get worse as more teenagers are let loose on the streets....There will be more killings which ever way they choose and there will be more gang rapes as recently happened in a pizza shop in the UK....The 16 year old girl went into to buy a pizza and four shop workers dragged her up stairs and each Muslim man had his pleasure.


----------



## Ves (13 May 2017)

noco said:


> Ves, you do not seem to understand that when those 10 year old kids are fully brain washed and leave the Muslim school and they are fully indoctrinated into the hate of Christians and infidels, they  will have the strength to perform their duty as preached to them from the Koran.
> Things will get worse as more teenagers are let loose on the streets....There will be more killings which ever way they choose and there will be more gang rapes as recently happened in a pizza shop in the UK....The 16 year old girl went into to buy a pizza and four shop workers dragged her up stairs and each Muslim man had his pleasure.



What's that got to do with my post?


----------



## noco (13 May 2017)

Ves said:


> What's that got to do with my post?




Everything.......You replied to SR regarding those 10 year old kids.


----------



## Ves (13 May 2017)

noco said:


> Everything.......You replied to SR regarding those 10 year old kids.



I replied to him pointing out that his reference to a book written in the 1950s was tenuous at best.

Doesn't really have much to do with what you posted in reply to my post.


----------



## noco (13 May 2017)

Ves said:


> I replied to him pointing out that his reference to a book written in the 1950s was tenuous at best.
> 
> Doesn't really have much to do with what you posted in reply to my post.




What ever......But it does not deter away from the facts of what will happen
very soon.


----------



## Ves (13 May 2017)

noco said:


> What ever......But it does not deter away from the facts of what will happen
> very soon.



Yeah no worries, don't let that distract you from the fact you didnt read my post and got it wrong once again.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2017)

Ves said:


> Love the Lord of the Flies reference.
> 
> I think the best part of it is that the book can legitimately be seen as a criticism of the violent indoctrination children are part of in Western civilization.  An indoctrination that Golding clearly argues is the reason for their deep-seated violent tendencies.
> 
> ...




It is simply a fact that some Muslim children are being raised to hate Westerners and Western values ? Do you deny this ?

What proportion this is of the total Muslim population I don't know. It's probably quite small at the moment, but it's known that when people form gangs whether it be outlaw motorcyclists or jihadis, law and order goes out the window in favour of a battle between rival alpha males for dominance within the group and that may include a show of bravery in planning jihadi attacks or other shows of macho bravado.

So what your basis for saying that Western children in general are part of a "violent indoctrination" as you put it ? I certainly wasn't but that was a long time ago. Violent crime seems to be reducing in Australia so we are told, but the level of Islamic jihadi incidents or other unsavoury acts by Muslims appear to be increasing. Would you agree ? How do you account for this ?


----------



## noco (14 May 2017)

*Judy Kennedy shared a link.
1 hr
ONE statistic that should send a shiver down your spine is that almost all the young jihadists who have been radicalised in Australia have been educated at government schools, not religious schools. 

 Sydney school teacher terrified by Middle Eastern students tells her story

 Our politically correct, feminised public school system now creates a vacuum of values and certainty that is failing teachers and students alike. It is fertile ground for propagandists, whether Islamists taking over Arabic language Koranic scripture classes in schools or the cultural relativism of the ABC’s “Behind the News” education program which is screened in class.

 This is why we should heed the warnings of courageous Mrs A, a former teacher of Punchbowl Public School, who says that Muslim students as young as 10 are showing signs of early radicalisation which is being ignored by authorities and creating a ticking time bomb for the future.

 Until she was hounded out of the predominantly Muslim school in Sydney’s southwest two years ago, Mrs A was forced to stand by helplessly as students brought ISIS-style flags to school, made threatening “beheading” gestures to her, wrote abusive graffiti about her family, bailed her up to chant the Koran in Arabic in her face, and demanded she remove the cross around her neck.

 Mrs A from Punchbowl Public School. (Pic: Supplied)
She claims her complaints were not taken seriously by the principal or the department, and that the school’s absurdly ineffective disciplinary procedures disempowered teachers.

 “There was physical violence, abuse of teachers and abuse of each other. I’m talking kids bashing each other with closed fists… and it was getting worse.”

 Tensions escalated in 2014 when ISIS was rampaging across Syria and Iraq.

 “It was Muslim on Christian, and Muslim on Muslim because some are Sunni and some are Shia. You had cousins fighting each other because their families were fighting.”

 “There were also some really good Muslim kids that were very respectful [and] just wanted to come to school and learn.”

 But those good students, too, were victims, because little learning was possible amid the chaos, as can be seen from stagnant, subpar NAPLAN scores.

 Mrs A thinks she was targeted because of the cross she wore around her neck. “Students didn’t like it. [They would say] ‘Miss, your cross is offensive. Take it off. Why are you wearing a cross for?’”

 Mrs A said the cross she wore drew unwanted negative attention from some of her students. (Pic: iStock)
The 46-year-old blonde mother-of-two, who grew up in Bankstown, and taught in the area for a decade, said she became “so jittery and nervous” before class she was “taking deep breaths and wondering what will today hold for me.

 “I was a nervous wreck… It wasn’t just the fact of what the kids were doing, it was [school leaders] second-guessing the teachers.”

 She also claims at least three teachers took stress leave and received counselling.

 “These kids were abusing the crap out of us.”

 Mrs A made public her complaints anonymously in the Daily Telegraph in March and last week revealed her face on Mark Latham’s Outsiders Facebook show.

 She since has produced documents to back up her claims, including more than 200 incident reports logged in the “Wellbeing” section of the school’s “Sentral” computer database in 2014.

 They tell the story of a group of troubled boys, aged between 10 and 12, big for their age, abusing teachers, fighting and threatening each other with scissors, kicking sand in girls’ faces, calling girls “dog”, and banned from the canteen for being “constantly rude [and trying] to steal food from the counter”.

 The reports also tell a story of absent fathers, and disconnected mothers busy with large families.

 While bad behaviour was learned at home, Mrs A says the school “reinforced” it by stripping classroom teachers of authority with a disciplinary system called “Working it out”.

 This operated as a lunchtime kangaroo court in which students and teachers were sent slips of paper from the office with an appointed time to turn up and put their case.

 Executive teachers would sit as mediators hearing both sides and then tell teacher and student to “work it out”.

 “These kids were abusing the crap out of us,” Mrs A said.
Instead of meting out immediate punishments for bad behaviour, teachers had to engage in this drawn out charade of “restorative justice”.

 Mrs A said teachers felt they were being punished and “the kids loved it. They were laughing at us. Our kids had worked out it was giving them the power”.

 In the end, teachers turned their backs on playground fights, unable to intervene and knowing it was pointless to follow up.

 “Kids’ behaviour was getting worse. It was escalating.”

 Casual teachers would come to the school and leave after a day.

 But with an oversupply of 40,000 teachers in NSW unable to secure a permanent job, Mrs A says colleagues were frightened to make waves.

 “If you complained you got no reference. You have to toe the school line”.

 The picture she paints is of anxious, under-parented boys latching on to a dimly understood Islam as a symbol of rebellion and power. Add progressive, laissez faire teaching methods which don’t suit boys, and you have the perfect storm.

 It is a problem that threatens to disenfranchise a generation of children and create future national security issues, unless education authorities act now.

 POSTSCRIPT:

 Mrs A’s ordeal occurred during the reign of the politically correct former Education Minister Adrian Piccoli.

 But yesterday, the new minister, Rob Stokes, stepped in to order “the Department to contact the teacher, known as Mrs A, to organise a reinvestigation of the reported matters in 2014 and to offer an opportunity for me to speak to her personally about her concerns”.

 “As Minister for Education I am concerned about any attack on our hardworking teachers.”
*





The hidden Islamist radicalisation in our schools
*ONE statistic that should send a shiver down your spine is that almost all the young jihadists who have been radicalised in Australia have been educated at government schools, not religious schools.
dailytelegraph.com.au*


----------



## Ves (14 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> It is simply a fact that some Muslim children are being raised to hate Westerners and Western values ? Do you deny this ?
> 
> What proportion this is of the total Muslim population I don't know. It's probably quite small at the moment, but it's known that when people form gangs whether it be outlaw motorcyclists or jihadis, law and order goes out the window in favour of a battle between rival alpha males for dominance within the group and that may include a show of bravery in planning jihadi attacks or other shows of macho bravado.
> 
> So what your basis for saying that Western children in general are part of a "violent indoctrination" as you put it ? I certainly wasn't but that was a long time ago. Violent crime seems to be reducing in Australia so we are told, but the level of Islamic jihadi incidents or other unsavoury acts by Muslims appear to be increasing. Would you agree ? How do you account for this ?



Young people are brought up in Western civilization to believe that acts of war are OK, because they are  heroic and for our cause.  They're shown constantly that carpet bombing in the Middle East is fine,  because the powers that be say it is,  and that the people being bombed are worse than us,  they're barbarians and if we don't bomb them they will takeover the world.  Any act of violence or resistance that they show in return is not OK,  they're not allowed to retaliate because we said so.

TL;DR version:   Young people are told violence against others is OK if it's for a proper cause and the government says it is.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2017)

Ves said:


> TL;DR version: Young people are told violence against others is OK if it's for a proper cause and the government says it is.




Young people may be told that, and some may believe it, but during the Vietnam war there were widespread protests against conscription leading to its abolition, so the young aren't as silly as you make out.


----------



## noco (14 May 2017)

Ves said:


> Young people are brought up in Western civilization to believe that acts of war are OK, because they are  heroic and for our cause.  They're shown constantly that carpet bombing in the Middle East is fine,  because the powers that be say it is,  and that the people being bombed are worse than us,  they're barbarians and if we don't bomb them they will takeover the world.  Any act of violence or resistance that they show in return is not OK,  they're not allowed to retaliate because we said so.
> 
> TL;DR version:   Young people are told violence against others is OK if it's for a proper cause and the government says it is.




Have a think about who are the aggressors in Australia ATM.......A small minority at this stage (2.2%) who have invaded our country and are hell bent on disrupting our way of life......Who are now  here as our guests...Who are here abusing our welfare system......Who don't want to accept our laws ......Who don't want to assimilate into our society......Who openly state they will take over our country and introduce Sharia law......

So why do we have to put up with it all?.......Because we have a weak government allowing it all to happen.....The Turnbull Government is not interested in what the true blue Australians want.......The majority of Australians want no more Muslim immigration.....Close all Muslim schools and Islamic mosques......If Muslims want that way of life, then let them go back to where they came.

Don't start suggesting they have come from oppressive countries for an easier way of of life...If that is the case then they should accept *our* way of life and not bring in the life they are supposed to be running away from.....We don't want to see signs going up "YOU ARE NOW IN AN EXCLUSIVE ISLAMIC ZONE" and this is what is happening in the UK and some European Countries....

Put Australia first and let us get back to our way of life without the disruption of a few....Without the fear of not feeling safe on our own streets.......Of young Christian girls fearing of being being gang raped by Muslims who believe it is their right.


----------



## Ves (14 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Young people may be told that, and some may believe it, but during the Vietnam war there were widespread protests against conscription leading to its abolition, *so the young aren't as silly as you make out*.



I don't think I ever said they were silly or that it wasn't possible for them to question what they were told.  But the evidence right in front of me seems to suggest that for some it is fairly insurmountable.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2017)

Ves said:


> But the evidence right in front of me seems to suggest that for some it is fairly insurmountable.




Well, yes people join the Armed Forces voluntarily, that doesn't necessarily mean that they think war is a good idea, they may just want a job. Fighter pilots usually go on to be airline pilots at a better pay grade for example.

What evidence is in front of you that forms your opinion ?


----------



## noco (14 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, yes people join the Armed Forces voluntarily, that doesn't necessarily mean that they think war is a good idea, they may just want a job. Fighter pilots usually go on to be airline pilots at a better pay grade for example.
> 
> What evidence is in front of you that forms your opinion ?




And Islam have their well trained Army Forces also...Some of them right here in Australia ready and willing to take up arms when required.


----------



## noco (14 May 2017)

And the UK police are protecting Islam by arresting people who are out on the street demonstrating against  the invasion of Muslims into their country........The same will soon be happening here in Australia......Our true blue Australians must stand up now before it is too late.
I warned about this 7 and 10 years ago on ASF.......I was accused of being racist and had my post deleted on two occasions.......People in the UK are starting to rise against Islam.....Is it too late?...Maybe.
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialBr...455573433044/1339890362822888/?type=2&theater


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## MrBurns (15 May 2017)

Leaving my house on Saturday only 50 metres from my place on the next corner a bloke on the nature strip facing the setting sun eyes closed arms crossed with a mat in front of him, do Muslims face West to pray? It was disturbing I must say.
Just checked yes they face West when in Australia.


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## Tisme (15 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> Leaving my house on Saturday only 50 metres from my place on the next corner a bloke on the nature strip facing the setting sun eyes closed arms crossed with a mat in front of him, do Muslims face West to pray? It was disturbing I must say.
> Just checked yes they face West when in Australia.





Do they vector the location to make sure they bullseye Mecca  or is it hit and miss? I'm amazed they can handle the belief the world is a sphere, yet they believe in fairies ....


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Do they vector the location to make sure they bullseye Mecca  or is it hit and miss? I'm amazed they can handle the belief the world is a sphere, yet they believe in fairies ....




Google it and you'll see it depends on where you are .....which hemisphere etc


----------



## Tisme (15 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> Google it and you'll see it depends on where you are .....which hemisphere etc





Yeah but if you just face east or west you will merely be  praying to a latitude. Surely if this fella was, say. in Perth he'd have to face north of west by some degree to take in the difference between 31degs South and 21degs North destination, then the curvature of the earth, etc?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Yeah but if you just face east or west you will merely be  praying to a latitude. Surely if this fella was, say. in Perth he'd have to face north of west by some degree to take in the difference between 31degs South and 21degs North destination, then the curvature of the earth, etc?




Near enough is good enough. She'll be right effendi.


----------



## Tisme (15 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Near enough is good enough. She'll be right effendi.




Do prayers radiate from the noggin perimeter or just one small transmission portal? I say this because for some obscure reason you see Christians kneeling with eyes closed and facing groundward, other times you see them looking up in the sky muttering to the clouds. In the Islam they point their bums to the sky and faces down, what's that all about?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Do prayers radiate from the noggin perimeter or just one small transmission portal? I say this because for some obscure reason you see Christians kneeling with eyes closed and facing groundward, other times you see them looking up in the sky muttering to the clouds. In the Islam they point their bums to the sky and faces down, what's that all about?




Aligning the S Band antenna maybe ? Facing groundward is a worry though, that where the "Other One" usually resides.


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2017)

When they start laying prayer mats in public near your home it's a worry but no one will do anything about it , even when the suicide bombers start the Govt will do nothing.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> When they start laying prayer mats in public near your home it's a worry but no one will do anything about it , even when the suicide bombers start the Govt will do nothing.




You could always drive past him and loudly honk your horn to disrupt the etheric link to his sky fairy.


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2017)

And interrupt him getting instructions from Allah to destroy the infidels ? 
That would be discriminatory under our laws and he would get compo.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Do they vector the location to make sure they bullseye Mecca  or is it hit and miss? I'm amazed they can handle the belief the world is a sphere, yet they believe in fairies ....




Christians and other religion believe in Science, I guess.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> When they start laying prayer mats in public near your home it's a worry but no one will do anything about it , even when the suicide bombers start the Govt will do nothing.




I live near a nunnery where there's a statute of, I guess, Joseph, on the balcony. Guess what happen whenever a religious Christian walk by the place? They stop in front of the place and do their crosses and bow to the statue. 

Dude, don't do it on the street. It's confronting.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2017)

noco said:


> And the UK police are protecting Islam by arresting people who are out on the street demonstrating against  the invasion of Muslims into their country........The same will soon be happening here in Australia......Our true blue Australians must stand up now before it is too late.
> I warned about this 7 and 10 years ago on ASF.......I was accused of being racist and had my post deleted on two occasions.......People in the UK are starting to rise against Islam.....Is it too late?...Maybe.
> https://www.facebook.com/OfficialBr...455573433044/1339890362822888/?type=2&theater




You were accused of being racist? No! Way! 

Know how you don't like Muslims "invading" Western countries? That being invaded kinda upset you.

How do you reckon the Muslims in the Middle East feel when there are actual military boots all over their land, droning and shooting any of their people whenever, wherever? 

Something's wrong with Islam I suppose. Dam it Islam! Always making trouble in your own home, forcing foreign military powers to come on over and having to kill most of you and take control of all your stuff.

What's wrong with Islam man.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, yes people join the Armed Forces voluntarily, that doesn't necessarily mean that they think war is a good idea, they may just want a job. Fighter pilots usually go on to be airline pilots at a better pay grade for example.
> 
> What evidence is in front of you that forms your opinion ?




No one's blaming the soldiers, or the armed forces, for any war.

People generally join their country's military to serve and protect. Some do join because it's also a job that pays and they have little or no other choice.

That's very different to the politicians and "statesman" and strategists, warmongers and war profiteers doing their grand design on the world and sending soldiers - who often are other people's kids - to do the dirty work.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Young people may be told that, and some may believe it, but during the Vietnam war there were widespread protests against conscription leading to its abolition, so the young aren't as silly as you make out.




The young, and the old, then were out protesting because they watch TV back when there were some real journalism showing the horror of full metal jacket and napalm meeting flesh. 

People will not put up with having their military doing imperialism on peasant farmers. That and since it's a lottery whose kids will be send to do the job, it's not going to happen.

Then there's the fact that when soldiers from middle-class, working class families who thought they're there to actually protect their country from Communism and help the peasant... but instead saw what was actually happening. They didn't like what they see, what they're forced to do, so a lot of them mutinied against their officers. They actually refuse to fight, often shooting their own officers.

What the Pentagon and military planners came to realise is that they cannot have an imperial military with civilian soldiers. That to do these kind of stuff, you need what is practically a group of mercenary - paid soldiers. They call it "a voluntary army" where soldiers "volunteer" because there are so little opportunity for work, where higher education is so expensive, or where it is the only path to US citizenship and family not being deported... that serving the military is the only way.

Then the planners remove the draft. Spinning it as an all volunteered citizen militia fighting for freedom everywhere around the world when in fact it remove the chances of highly influential parents and political donors calling up their politicians about their kids might win the lottery and go shoot somebody.

It also save the likes of Bush and Cheney and Trump, the uber rich with high political ambition, from the bad press of having to dodge the military draft but claiming they're heroes and warriors protecting the homeland. 

Then to further remove popular protest, you "embed" "journalist" into the military units. Let them see the love of war and pass the words along. Then you let guys like Murdoch own and control most of the media, telling the citizens what needs to be told and let them decide.

Then you pull out that old trick of the terrorist killing being shown all over the place, but "our" MOAB and clusterfarks are just puff of harmless smokes on the screen.

That's some of ways you sell propaganda in a "free" and "open" democracy.


----------



## noco (15 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> When they start laying prayer mats in public near your home it's a worry but no one will do anything about it , even when the suicide bombers start the Govt will do nothing.



 What are they praying for?...Does anyone know?


----------



## noco (15 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> When they start laying prayer mats in public near your home it's a worry but no one will do anything about it , even when the suicide bombers start the Govt will do nothing.




Maybe a swift kick up the butt might change their mind but it also might land you in jail for  assault.


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## wayneL (15 May 2017)

Junior

Can you please substantiate your claim that food is cheap in this country?


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## luutzu (15 May 2017)

noco said:


> What are they praying for?...Does anyone know?




They're praying... Please Allah, the great and merciful, protect my family and neighbour. Give us good health and endless Centrelink payment. I was going to also ask for death to all infidels but then that's sorta counter-productive seeing how their tax dollars are funding our Jihad against them. Hmmm... it's a tough one. Will think about it for another few hours before we talk again.


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> I live near a nunnery where there's a statute of, I guess, Joseph, on the balcony. Guess what happen whenever a religious Christian walk by the place? They stop in front of the place and do their crosses and bow to the statue.
> 
> Dude, don't do it on the street. It's confronting.




This is Australia so fit in or F off.


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## noco (15 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> Junior
> 
> Can you please substantiate your claim that food is cheap in this country?




 Remove the bloody Halal levy for a start might help.....That will make things cheaper......Why this weak government has allowed this Halal levy is beyond me.


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## luutzu (15 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> This is Australia so fit in or F off.




Being law-abiding citizen isn't enough?


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## noco (15 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Being law-abiding citizen isn't enough?




 And what percentage of Muslim are law abiding?


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## luutzu (15 May 2017)

noco said:


> Remove the bloody Halal levy for a start might help.....That will make things cheaper......Why this weak government has allowed this Halal levy is beyond me.




Higher GST and tax revenue 

A jar of Vegemite would usually costs $4.99. With Kraft being bullied into submission with Halal, that same Vegemite is now $4.99. Sell enough of it and they can collect an extra trillion dollars.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2017)

noco said:


> And what percentage of Muslim are law abiding?




Same percentage as other Australians of other religion and cultural heritage. Plus a few handful of terrorists.


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## MrBurns (15 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Being law-abiding citizen isn't enough?



It would be if they weren't trying to convert Australia to their way of life instead of converting to our way of life. Marrying little girls off to old men is isn't really the Australian way nor is collecting multiple welfare payments for multiple wives, our Govt is p### weak.


----------



## noco (15 May 2017)

Obama admits to being a Muslim and defends their rights.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2017)

noco said:


> Obama admits to being a Muslim and defends their rights.




http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/foxvideo.asp


----------



## Tisme (15 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> I live near a nunnery where there's a statute of, I guess, Joseph, on the balcony. Guess what happen whenever a religious Christian walk by the place? They stop in front of the place and do their crosses and bow to the statue.
> 
> Dude, don't do it on the street. It's confronting.





You're obviously not old enough to know how people doing the old finger pointing at the head and body while muttering the trinitarian in public almost caused total devastation of public conservatism and politeness, especially around anglican aethiests.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2017)

noco said:


> Obama admits to being a Muslim and defends their rights.





Hence he expand two wars on Muslim countries to 7; permit drone strikes all over the Arab world and any part of Africa that "serve" the US security and national interests. 

I'd hate to see how he'd do different if he weren't an African Muslim.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> It would be if they weren't trying to convert Australia to their way of life instead of converting to our way of life. Marrying little girls off to old men is isn't really the Australian way nor is collecting multiple welfare payments for multiple wives, our Govt is p### weak.




I know right? The thing about Western countries is how weak and afraid they are of Muslims, ethnic minorities and poor white folks. That explains why the poor get screwed, the Muslims get droned and invaded, and the native get... hmmm... to live like how they've always lived - in the desert and hostile barren land.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> You're obviously not old enough to know how people doing the old finger pointing at the head and body while muttering the trinitarian in public almost caused total devastation of public conservatism and politeness, especially around anglican aethiests.




Christians do that to each other? Aren't they all the same and one people?


----------



## noco (16 May 2017)

Hey Luu Luu here is a good interview between Alan Jones and Petr Dutton...Don't miss it.


http://www.2gb.com/podcast/peter-dutton-4/


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## Tisme (16 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Christians do that to each other? Aren't they all the same and one people?





No Roman Catholics were denied jobs for a long time after they tried to knock out the protestant Monarch. The distrust lasted well into the 20th century. Unlike Muslims who all believe they have God's ear, the majority atheists in this country believe in Australia.


----------



## luutzu (16 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> No Roman Catholics were denied jobs for a long time after they tried to knock out the protestant Monarch. The distrust lasted well into the 20th century. Unlike Muslims who all believe they have God's ear, the majority atheists in this country believe in Australia.




Maybe they too believe in Australia, hence thinking they have the freedom to worship their Allah and eating certain kind of food and dressing certain way. 

Think again I guess.


----------



## noco (16 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Maybe they too believe in Australia, hence thinking they have the freedom to worship their Allah and eating certain kind of food and dressing certain way.
> 
> Think again I guess.




Islam is not a religion but a political ideology.......So therefore it should be banned....That praying stuff is just a shadow to cover their evil intent.

https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lis...ble-and-unwelcome-in-australia-agree-disagree


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

noco said:


> Islam is not a religion but a political ideology.......So therefore it should be banned....That praying stuff is just a shadow to cover their evil intent.
> 
> https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lis...ble-and-unwelcome-in-australia-agree-disagree




Everything within a polity is political. From the food we eat to the road to the type of houses. 

If religion, any religion, does not serve a political purpose, it would have died out a long time ago. So for Islam to be political is nothing new. Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism... they are all state sponsored and all serve a political purpose.

That does not mean that follower of the religion/ideology do so for political purpose. Often, followers just join for spiritual and social needs... just in their doing so, they unknowingly serve the ruler's political agenda.

As to Islam being evil and backward and genital mutilation... you sure we can't point to the bad stuff about other religion and religious leaders? There's no Catholic priests doing bad stuff to kids? There's no Christian or Jewish bombs flattening cities and starving people?

If we ask the Soviets what were they doing in Afghanistan in the 80s, they too will tell us they're there to free the savages. Ask the Chinese what they're doing in Tibet since the 50s and it's to free the Tibetans from a theocracy about some living god fooling peasants. 

Should we take those claims seriously? But we tend to believe that about our own good deeds and noble intention. 

I just saw a short news clip by our Paul Barry on the collapse of Detroit in the US. A councilman was saying that to help clean up an entire neighbourhood of abandoned and burnt down houses so that those who still live there feel safe and perhap bring back some value to their own property and the community... all he would need would be $10M. 

But the US gov't just won't give it. $10M is the price of one landing gear on a fighter jet, but it won't be granted to help a US city in poverty. Yet somehow the US is overseas liberating other people, whether they like it or not.

Anyway, maybe to you all these is just some news and opinions... such believes does affect lives.


----------



## noco (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Everything within a polity is political. From the food we eat to the road to the type of houses.
> 
> If religion, any religion, does not serve a political purpose, it would have died out a long time ago. So for Islam to be political is nothing new. Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism... they are all state sponsored and all serve a political purpose.
> 
> ...




Luutzu, you can come up with all the rhetoric you like but it does not deny the fact that a very large majority in Australia do not like or want Muslims in this once great country of ours.....They are disrupting our way of life like never seen before.

A day never passes when you read or hear of some disturbance somewhere in Australia or on the other side of the World.

There will be civil war......I think it is Denmark who have already engaged their  Army to to take charge of the radicals and to bring in law and order......More European countries will follow.

Islam is not a religion.


----------



## Tisme (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Maybe they too believe in Australia, hence thinking they have the freedom to worship their Allah and eating certain kind of food and dressing certain way.
> 
> Think again I guess.




Yes think again, because inherent in their "religion"  are insoluble draconian laws that are counter to our constitutional and precedent ones. Dress, food, worship are three things that are disparate to the core arguments about Islam here and elsewhere. Islam is a culture of submission to a punitive and vengeful power elite who rise though the ranks in an apprenticeship of human rights abuse.

There is ample self evidence anywhere you look between a miserable, primitive existence and Islam. Why you feel the need to defend it by picking the eyes our of the very few good bits to justify the monster that it is is stupifyingly frustrating.... if you actually do believe what you write.

As a student of Machiavelli I would suppose you know exactly why Islam is what it is and how it is not a spiritual religion of anything but a rote learned ritual, employed as a crowd control glue for manipulation, wealth, sport and whatever nuisance empire builders desire. 

The real astonishing factor is that millions of people actually allow themselves to believe there is something worthwhile in the nonsense. It beggars belief that when offered freedom from the chains here, they still continue with the idiocy by doing the same drone things they did in their primitive country of origin. Compounding that is the deliberately confronting actions of women with a few bricks short of a load marrying Muslim men and accepting the requirement to wear head scarfs and leg coverings WTF!


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> The real astonishing factor is that millions of people actually allow themselves to believe there is something worthwhile in the nonsense. It beggars belief that when offered freedom from the chains here, they still continue with the idiocy by doing the same drone things they did in their primitive country of origin.




Mind control, pure and simple. Please the Deity by killing infidels and you will be rewarded.

IMV, this sort of belief is symptomatic of mental illness and should be treated as such.


----------



## Tisme (17 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> IMV, this sort of belief is symptomatic of mental illness and should be treated as such.




Absolutely


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

noco said:


> Luutzu, you can come up with all the rhetoric you like but it does not deny the fact that a very large majority in Australia do not like or want Muslims in this once great country of ours.....They are disrupting our way of life like never seen before.
> 
> A day never passes when you read or hear of some disturbance somewhere in Australia or on the other side of the World.
> 
> ...




Noco, it's not going to be a "civil war" because the Muslim Australians were never considered Australian in the first place. 

Maybe some Muslims are upset because, I don't know, the greatest noblest most kindest of imperial military power in the history of the world is blowing their country and people to bits. I'd be very worried for any religion or culture that aren't pizzed off about it. Wouldn't you?


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Mind control, pure and simple. Please the Deity by killing infidels and you will be rewarded.
> 
> IMV, this sort of belief is symptomatic of mental illness and should be treated as such.




That 72 virgin, blowing up infidels for Allah... that's a racist myth. Islam never taught that, it probably say something all culture and religion and people would say when a foreign power occupy and militarise your homeland.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Yes think again, because inherent in their "religion"  are insoluble draconian laws that are counter to our constitutional and precedent ones. Dress, food, worship are three things that are disparate to the core arguments about Islam here and elsewhere. Islam is a culture of submission to a punitive and vengeful power elite who rise though the ranks in an apprenticeship of human rights abuse.
> 
> There is ample self evidence anywhere you look between a miserable, primitive existence and Islam. Why you feel the need to defend it by picking the eyes our of the very few good bits to justify the monster that it is is stupifyingly frustrating.... if you actually do believe what you write.
> 
> ...




and... Islam is different to Christianity or Judaism or any religion you care to name, how?

I'm not defending Islam or believe in its fairy tales. I'm defending people's rights to believe in those bs. Just like I'd defend a Christian or a Feng Shui believer's right to be screwed and lied to by the priesthood. 

Come on McGee, you of all people ought to know that it'll take a generation or two to white wash the drunken hooliganism, terrorist-tendency out of savages (and Irish)


----------



## noco (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> and... Islam is different to Christianity or Judaism or any religion you care to name, how?
> 
> I'm not defending Islam or believe in its fairy tales. I'm defending people's rights to believe in those bs. Just like I'd defend a Christian or a Feng Shui believer's right to be screwed and lied to by the priesthood.
> 
> Come on McGee, you of all people ought to know that it'll take a generation or two to white wash the drunken hooliganism, terrorist-tendency out of savages (and Irish)




Luutzu, get it into your head.......Islam is not a religion.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

noco said:


> Luutzu, get it into your head.......Islam is not a religion.




Says you.

It has a God - the same one Christians and Jews worship.

It has a line up of Prophets, among them are Jesus and Moses.

It has a top layer of the high priests who can hear and speak to God [Allah]... and it managed to convince adults to believe in all its fairytales.

If a guy like you or me or McGee were to say the same stuff as is solemnly, honestly, seriously said in their holy books, we'd all be like you


----------



## Tisme (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> and... Islam is different to Christianity or Judaism or any religion you care to name, how?
> 
> I'm not defending Islam or believe in its fairy tales. I'm defending people's rights to believe in those bs. Just like I'd defend a Christian or a Feng Shui believer's right to be screwed and lied to by the priesthood.
> 
> Come on McGee, you of all people ought to know that it'll take a generation or two to white wash the drunken hooliganism, terrorist-tendency out of savages (and Irish)





What has Islam got to do with Christianity in the argument? The contest is between Islam and it's contemptuous abuse of the weak minded and majority underprivileged. If anything your argument adds weight to not allowing worse bad into an already bad situation... you seem to think Judeo Christianity is an evil in itself and that Australians are religious (which they are not, but like the rules that are grounded on JC ..... which leads me to ask how your family managed it into Australia and not being French Catholic ....very interesting?

It's a worry the washout hasn't happened to many Muslims in the burbs even after two gens.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> What has Islam got to do with Christianity in the argument? The contest is between Islam and it's contemptuous abuse of the weak minded and majority underprivileged. If anything your argument adds weight to not allowing worse bad into an already bad situation... you seem to think Judeo Christianity is an evil in itself and that Australians are religious (which they are not, but like the rules that are grounded on JC ..... which leads me to ask how your family managed it into Australia and not being French Catholic ....very interesting?
> 
> It's a worry the washout hasn't happened to many Muslims in the burbs even after two gens.




Didn't Jesus taught his followers to judge not, lest thou be judged? So if we're to say Islam is this, Muslims and its elders are that... you know, judge and be judged.

I went to school with Arabs and Muslims, none of them are terrorists or beaten up by their parents. And oh, Muslim girls goes to school too 

My maternal grandparents and all their children are all Catholics. The type that attend Church every single day since birth. Oh look, Christians and Catholics never seek to convert anyone. It's only the Muslims that invade and force conversion.


----------



## Tisme (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Didn't Jesus taught his followers to judge not, lest thou be judged? So if we're to say Islam is this, Muslims and its elders are that... you know, judge and be judged.



I'm comfortable being judged so that's no bogey to me.

You on the otherhand are going to perdition for breaking the the first three commandments and probably a dozen or so more!


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> I'm comfortable being judged so that's no bogey to me.
> 
> You on the otherhand are going to perdition for breaking the the first three commandments and probably a dozen or so more!




There's still only 10 Commandments right? 

But I'm not worried though, I haven't been baptised yet so just before I kick the bucket I'll take a bath in a river and wash all the sins away    Will probably donate all my assets to the Church just to be safe too 

Guess how many Christians tries to convert me all these years? There's the few Catholic friends I have that actually took me to Church where I can yawn my way through Church, shook strangers hands and ask for forgiveness (for some reason). There's the Watch Tower and Mormons now and then. 

I'm starting to feel left out by the Muslims and Buddhists. The Monks only want my dad (and me) to do work for free; the Muslims just completely ignore us and our need for roast pork.


----------



## Jorgensen (17 May 2017)

Nothing wrong with the five pillars of Islam,if you are that way inclined.Islam is one of the three sky religions.
None of these,or others,has credence with a hedon like me.
As an old man told me years ago...beware of extremists of any persuasion.I always feel safer in Kuala Lumpur,a majority Muslim city,than I do in many places in Australia.


----------



## noco (17 May 2017)

https://www.votocrat.com/laura.zand...son-for-his-remarks-on-australian-flag-yes-no


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## SirRumpole (17 May 2017)

Islam, the religion of peace and tolerance...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-17/gay-men-in-aceh-sentenced-to-caning/8534054


----------



## Tisme (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> There's still only 10 Commandments right?
> 
> .




They made up some more to cover your vicissitudes:


----------



## MrBurns (17 May 2017)

Muslims don't belong here but nothing will be done so get ready for suicide bombings and for our politicians declaring them unacceptable.


----------



## MrBurns (17 May 2017)

ISIS is based on Islam so that says it all.


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## luutzu (17 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Islam, the religion of peace and tolerance...
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-17/gay-men-in-aceh-sentenced-to-caning/8534054




Not defending what some idiot Muslim did, but come on man.

Here's what Christian England did to its genius and war hero, Alan Turing. The Father of the Computer; the man whose mathematical genius and engineering skill literally break the Nazi's "unbreakable" Enigma machine, saving an estimated 20 million lives.

He also happen to be gay. So when they found out (after the War), charged him for "indecency" and being nice and noble, let him choose between prison or chemical castration. 

And no, Christianity hasn't changed, it merely got pushed aside by secular civil societies. 

It's the same with Muslims and Arabs. They want democracy, they want to be secular, they do not want to be ruled by warlords and religious nutjobs. Guess who overturn any and all secular, democratically elected presidents among the Arab states? 

And again, that wasn't done "a long time ago". Happening right now, in at least 7 Arab countries.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> ISIS is based on Islam so that says it all.




So does the KKK. So does Israel. So does certain countries sending the natives of the world to meet their makers.

Just because some group of warmongers and terrorists claim to do what it is they do in the name of this or that people or god or religion... does not make it so.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> They made up some more to cover your vicissitudes:





I guess Jesus did kick the money-changers out of his father's temple to make room for capitalists. 

Was that a real commercial or one of those Fast-Forward skits?


----------



## MrBurns (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> So does the KKK. So does Israel. So does certain countries sending the natives of the world to meet their makers.
> 
> Just because some group of warmongers and terrorists claim to do what it is they do in the name of this or that people or god or religion... does not make it so.




Stop making excuses and face the truth Islam is an intolerant violent religion from the middle ages that hasn't changed in centuries and doesn't belong here.


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## SirRumpole (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> And no, Christianity hasn't changed, it merely got pushed aside by secular civil societies.




Yes, you got that right. Which is exactly what a secular civil society must do to Islam.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> Stop making excuses and face the truth Islam is an intolerant violent religion from the middle ages that hasn't changed in centuries and doesn't belong here.




Religion does not change. It is what God originally told his Son or his Prophets.

Society does change, people do become more civilised and tolerant and scientific-minded. So they push religion aside, ignore the crazy stuff while emphasise the good and tolerant/spiritual bits.

But if you have a religious nut running the place, they'll revert society back to how God would've wanted it (according to what God told them).

Just look at Bush Jr. or Trump and their stance on Stem cell research, gay marriage, abortion. Or Abbott on why coal and fossil is great. Or ask the Evangelicals why all of Philistine must belong to the Jews - so that Christ can return and bring about Armageddon. 

So yes, Islam does not have a place in modern society. So does all other religion. And they're not really dominant in Australia and other secular democracies. And as long as they're kept out of politics and policies, as long as their followers gain spiritual assurance and comfort that does not harm anyone else... freedom of religion and speech and whatnot mean they can follow and pray to whoever they please.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, you got that right. Which is exactly what a secular civil society must do to Islam.




Islam plays no role in our politics and it's not going to. But that's very different from saying that Islam should be ban and its Muslims should be forced to eat pork or whatever.

Freedom isn't about doing what you or I feel is right and proper.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> And they're not really dominant in Australia and other secular democracies. And as long as they're kept out of politics and policies, as long as their followers gain spiritual assurance and comfort that does not harm anyone else... freedom of religion and speech and whatnot mean they can follow and pray to whoever they please.




You can't guarantee that Islam won't try and get its claws into our secular society. Look what happened at Punchbowl school, Epping school and others.

They ARE harming other people. Radicalising and spreading their poison. They have to be kept n a box and that means restricting their number here to reduce the chances of infection.


----------



## noco (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Religion does not change. It is what God originally told his Son or his Prophets.




So did God come back to Earth to hold a conference with his Son and his Prophets to tell them what to do?
I mean how did God communicate with his Son and his prophets?

The Bible has been written no less than 3 times.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You can't guarantee that Islam won't try and get its claws into our secular society. Look what happened at Punchbowl school, Epping school and others.
> 
> They ARE harming other people. Radicalising and spreading their poison. They have to be kept n a box and that means restricting their number here to reduce the chances of infection.




Jesus Christ man! ha ha

Lots of stuff are harming people in Australia, and it's not only tolerated but and even encouraged and promoted. Like property "investment", alcohol, bikinis near roads, gambling, fossil fuel and its exports, Asian drivers 

Islam remove two of those dangers.


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## luutzu (17 May 2017)

noco said:


> So did God come back to Earth to hold a conference with his Son and his Prophets to tell them what to do?
> I mean how did God communicate with his Son and his prophets?
> 
> The Bible has been written no less than 3 times.




In the Beginning, God created the world in six days, haha... then He created Adam... seeing that Adam was lonely he pull a rib and create Eve. Even screw around with God's precious apple and so He blew his top, telling them two to get the heck out of his Eden forever and ever and ever.

Then, without any help or guidance, Adam and Eve's descendants really messed the place up. So God decided to flood and drown them all like rats. Except for Noah and his family and two of each species.

Then something, something happen until the Egyptian enslave the Hebrews... Moses eventually free God's chosen people because the dude can't be bothered to just tell the Arabs to let his people go. Once free, God let his chosen people wonder the desert for 40 years for some reason... Not that he forgot 'cause, according to Moses, he did gave them the 10 Commandments, though you'd think he could also point to where there's water and food and shelter while he's at it.

Then the Hebrew eventually found safe haven, then soon enough start to slaughter the Natives. Ahem... Not to be outdone, the Romans later took over, colonised the chosen people until Jesus was immaculately conceived and got literally crucified when the Jewish rabbis, working with the Romans, weren't too keen on Christ pointing out the bad stuff and claiming to be their God's son, sent here by Him to give his creation another chance because Judaism corrupt the place.

Nothing came much from Christ's death and resurrection until Peter and Paul decided there's some money to be made spreading the word and building a Church where worshippers pay a reasonable few bucks for lunch and dinner. It became popular enough that eventually Constantine thought he might as well use it to turn the war for what's left of the Roman empire in his favour. It did lift the troops spirits knowing that God is on their side so Christianity became official.

Then they start to persecute other lunatic scammers until an Arab came along.

Not counting Adam and Noah, Muhammad the third and final Prophet from God. The Arab know this because Muhammad went up the mountain and came down with the news.

There's actually a fourth and fifth time God spoke to one of his creatures. Well there's John Smith [or whatever his name was] who hear God in the woods, told him where Eden was [somewhere in Pennsylvania, US?] and so he established the Mormons.

The fifth one was his other Chinese warlord during the waning years of the Ching Dynasty, when European liberators were carving up certain parts of China. He claimed to be Jesus Christ's brother, established a kingdom of heavenly peace [or something like that]... and did took a big chunk out of Ching's China before his dynasty was taken out.

Then I guess there's Scientology. With Tom Cruise no doubt one of the prophets.

I might start a temple one day. It's a great business model


----------



## noco (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> In the Beginning, God created the world in six days, haha... then He created Adam... seeing that Adam was lonely he pull a rib and create Eve. Even screw around with God's precious apple and so He blew his top, telling them two to get the heck out of his Eden forever and ever and ever.
> 
> Then, without any help or guidance, Adam and Eve's descendants really messed the place up. So God decided to flood and drown them all like rats. Except for Noah and his family and two of each species.
> 
> ...




I guess you also still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny.

How did God communicate with these creatures he is supposed to have created in 6 days.

Did God come back to Earth in a space ship...Did he use a telephone.....Please give me some answers Luutzu.


----------



## noco (17 May 2017)

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/i...troying-the-world-watch-this-and-think-again/


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Lots of stuff are harming people in Australia, and it's not only tolerated but and even encouraged and promoted. Like property "investment", alcohol, bikinis near roads, gambling, fossil fuel and its exports, Asian drivers




Easy to laugh, but actions are being taken against a lot of the "evils" you mentioned (except bikinis which I don't accept is a danger).

On the other hand, Islamic extremism is being downgraded in the name of PC, and "inclusion" which is naive at best.

All religion is mind control, we have to acknowledge that. When people's perceived duty to their "god" overrides their duty to their fellow man, they should be put away.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Easy to laugh, but actions are being taken against a lot of the "evils" you mentioned (except bikinis which I don't accept is a danger).
> 
> On the other hand, Islamic extremism is being downgraded in the name of PC, and "inclusion" which is naive at best.
> 
> All religion is mind control, we have to acknowledge that. When people's perceived duty to their "god" overrides their duty to their fellow man, they should be put away.




Bikinis near roads is a real danger. Come on. 

Islamic extremism is not downgraded. It, we're told, is the reason for all our emails and communications being spied on and stored for when it's needed to be use against us. It's also why literally trillions of dollars are being spent liberating Muslims from themselves; then trillions more on securities and body scans and cyber spying and data warehousing all over the world.

See, with the threat of Communism to prop up the military industrial complex and expand wars of liberation all over the world... communism eventually collapse on its own. 

With this war on Islam, how are you going to end Islamic extremism when you fund and prop up half of it on the one hand, overthrow secular and democratic forces among the Muslims on the other?

Maybe until oil ran out I guess.


----------



## luutzu (17 May 2017)

noco said:


> I guess you also still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny.
> 
> How did God communicate with these creatures he is supposed to have created in 6 days.
> 
> Did God come back to Earth in a space ship...Did he use a telephone.....Please give me some answers Luutzu.




You know that I only added minor creative licences to those claims right? The rest are actually what the good books claims to be true.


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## SirRumpole (17 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> overthrow secular and democratic forces among the Muslims on the other?




What secular and democratic Muslim forces would they be ?


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## luutzu (18 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What secular and democratic Muslim forces would they be ?




Pretty much the entire Middle East and Africa during and after WWII.

Like most of the colonised world, the Arabs began fighting for national independence in the chaos of WWI and WWII. Wars that drastically weakened their European masters. 

After WWII, the US dominates and set about re-establishing the old colonial order, with certain valuable colonies control by them outright (like Saudi Arabia and most of the ME, for its oil and strategic stranglehold on the Soviets, trade routes from Asia, South and East Asia, Africa etc. into and out of Europe); others they permit their junior partners (like the UK, France) to take a minority stake in.

Certain African colonies they permit the Europeans to retake control. On conditions. Among them is buying US made manufacturing, "leasing" US military bases all over their country etc.

As to the Arabs and ME, the US pretty much take over where the British left off. Picking this or that king and sheikh and dictators as figureheads, ruling as an "Arab fascade". Those Arab leaders who didn't get the memo and start to demand stuff for their own people get replaced. If they're lucky they get to die off in some distant country.

How else do you think the Saudi get to rule Arabia? Or all those gulf states kings get to be king? Why do you think they build all those crazy towers and drive European cars and buy American arms in the hundreds of billions? Most are build with UK/US consultants and engineers. No weapons are China or Russian made. 

It's just old fashion imperialism disguised as what all imperialism have been disguised as. For good and noble ideals. 

Just watch China's new Silk Road. For peace, trade, prosperity etc. etc.

They forgot to mention that the old Silk Road was established by the Emperor Wu Han. The dude that annex all minor states around China, making the Han a dominant ethnic majority; turning others into vassal states. It's the same road the Mongolians took as they invade the ME and knocking on Europe's gates.

Good thing we got nukes and not afraid to use it. But then they also got nukes, and money. And aren't bogged down liberating all the Arabs.

I wouldn't be surprise if Russia and China haven't been funding certain groups in the ME to keep the West busy (and broke).


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## MrBurns (18 May 2017)

The title of the thread asks the question is Islam evil.
Letting old men marry little girls, women wearing black from head to toe including full face cover, beating wives, multiple marriages. Religious extremism including cruelty and refusing to adopt the culture of the country you have been invited to live in.
I'd say the answer is yes, you'll soil Australia like you do every place you live.


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## Tisme (18 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> I guess Jesus did kick the money-changers out of his father's temple to make room for capitalists.
> 
> Was that a real commercial or one of those Fast-Forward skits?



I think it's real!!!


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## Tisme (18 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> The title of the thread asks the question is Islam evil.
> Letting old men marry little girls, women wearing black from head to toe including full face cover, beating wives, multiple marriages. Religious extremism including cruelty and refusing to adopt the culture of the country you have been invited to live in.
> I'd say the answer is yes, you'll soil Australia like you do every place you live.





It's a vulgar reminder of pre industrial mankind when witches, fairies, werewolves, satin, were substituted to explain the mysterious, scare people into obedience, etc. That Islam and any halfwit religious totems for that matter exists these days is an unconscionable abuse of impressionable minds; a miserable poison from cradle to the grave.

Those muslims who do possess skills and scientific nous will only ever be treated as curiosities, Joseph Merricks of the enlightened world and always viewed with suspicion they are closet barbarians willing to skewer anyone when the call from their Mullah demands obedience. Their offspring will be treated with contempt because of their family's insistent indoctrination into Islamic cult worship.


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## MrBurns (18 May 2017)

Christianity has mostly moved with times but Islam is rooted in the past and can't be changed as  decreed by Mohammad 
So get the hell out of my country and practice your sick religion where it's tolerated. No won't happen as Australia is governed by pathetic weaklings who prefer mindless tolerance over the safety of its citizens


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## noco (18 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> Christianity has mostly moved with times but Islam is rooted in the past and can't be changed as  decreed by Mohammad
> So get the hell out of my country and practice your sick religion where it's tolerated. No won't happen as Australia is governed by pathetic weaklings who prefer mindless tolerance over the safety of its citizens




How very true.


----------



## luutzu (18 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> Christianity has mostly moved with times but Islam is rooted in the past and can't be changed as  decreed by Mohammad
> So get the hell out of my country and practice your sick religion where it's tolerated. No won't happen as Australia is governed by pathetic weaklings who prefer mindless tolerance over the safety of its citizens




Religion, Christianity included, has not moved on and progressed. They're the same as they've ever been, just that where they operate are often secular democracies so most of their extremes are pushed aside or ignore by the majority.

That's not to say that Christianity or any religion are all bad. They often do serve the community well... just that being one of the tools of state, from the normal day to day helping of the poor, providing a sense of belonging and a literal almighty father figure... they're used as a weapon for wars whenever the masters got bored.

And no, Australia and Western politicians aren't weak. They're stupid, mostly, but not weak. They created all these hate and fear for Islam and Muslims... all as a pretext for increased military/security spending, as a way to slowly remove our democratic and civil liberties "for the sake of security" if it mean (mostly Muslims) are being targeted.


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## MrBurns (18 May 2017)

Yes they have moved on but Islam hasn't ...everyone seems to see this but you.


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## luutzu (18 May 2017)

MrBurns said:


> Yes they have moved on but Islam hasn't ...everyone seems to see this but you.




Just because there are now less Bible bashers in Western democracies compare to Koran bashers in theocratic Iran or Saudi Arabia, does not mean Christianity are any less Christian than it has always been and will always be.

I mean the UK still have its Royalties, the Royals seems all nice and law-abiding people who love democracy and people power.. .that does not mean English monarchs are more democratic and benevolent than the Sheikhs. They appear so because their power are all taken from them and are living on welfare.


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## Jorgensen (18 May 2017)

About two years ago I received an unsolicited email stating that Ahmed Fahoor,Australia Post CEO,received a four million dollar salary.He gave two million to a Muslim charity and then had two million left after the tax deduction.
I suppose this was meant to pejorative.Now I think about Malcolm Turnbull who minimises his tax by having Cayman island accounts.
Who do you think is the most patriotic Australian?
Remember its only the extremist that you have to be concerned about!


----------



## noco (19 May 2017)

https://www.votocrat.com/john.smith...e-keep-islam-out-of-australian-public-schools


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## luutzu (20 May 2017)

noco said:


> https://www.votocrat.com/john.smith...e-keep-islam-out-of-australian-public-schools





Why Chelsea was locked up for 7 years. What she revealed to wikileak.


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## noco (20 May 2017)

What do you say about this one Luutzu?

http://theblacksphere.net/2017/05/muslim-rapist-demands-freedom/

https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lis...refugees-who-lied-to-get-visas-agree-disagree


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## luutzu (20 May 2017)

noco said:


> What do you say about this one Luutzu?
> 
> http://theblacksphere.net/2017/05/muslim-rapist-demands-freedom/




Noco, seriously... 

Did you ever see me say that Islam should be above the law? Any law? So if a Muslim or an atheist or a Greenie or even a commie were to claim that their lord and "religion" said it's fine to rape, they can take that up with them to prison. 

There's just way too much racism. Which, I guess, is fine if it's just a personal opinion about how superior our race is against another... but when it's to this extend, it permit warmongers and war profiteers to kill innocent people, blame the victims for it, and get away with murder too. 

Seriously, you bash Islam and Muslims because you think it's evil, raping and killing innocent people who doesn't bow to its will. Have you use the same principle when looking at "our" own action?

We're laying waste to the entire Middle East. Some 4 million people have been killed in just Iraq and Afghanistan alone, and that count was a couple of years ago. Some 17 million Yemeni are on the verge of literal death from famine - all at the courtesy of our great protector and a vassal state your great man just drop by to shake hands, make business deals and selling another $100Billion in additional weapons.

Anyway, it's a joke.


----------



## noco (20 May 2017)

"God" will fix everything........He/she is on the way in a space ship...He is coming to get rid of the Greens, the Muslims and the commies.....Yeah, he is going to clean up all the baddies and make Earth a better place to live.

If God made Earth in 6 days he should be able to fix it 5 days.

What a joke.


----------



## noirua (20 May 2017)

noco said:


> "God" will fix everything........He/she is on the way in a space ship...He is coming to get rid of the Greens, the Muslims and the commies.....Yeah, he is going to clean up all the baddies and make Earth a better place to live.
> 
> If God made Earth in 6 days he should be able to fix it 5 days.
> 
> What a joke.




Yes, everyone with any religious views or affiliations should be ejected into outer space. Oops, that includes me as well.
If God made earth in 6 days then Donald Trump can fix it in 1 day, cheered on by Vladimir Putin. It is only the devils who prevent it; the Media, the Judges, Congress and House of Representatives.


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## SirRumpole (21 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Some 17 million Yemeni are on the verge of literal death from famine - all at the courtesy of our great protector and a vassal state your great man just drop by to shake hands, make business deals and selling another $100Billion in additional weapons.




You are now blaming the famine in Yemen on the US ?


----------



## Tisme (21 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are now blaming the famine in Yemen on the US ?



Maybe they should broaden their diet:


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## Jorgensen (21 May 2017)

I see that the Saudis have just paid their dues as a full member of the US empire.I believe that US has been active in the bombing of recalcitrant Yeminis.
I heard a Syrian scholar say that he thought that the Syrian civil war started in the Sunni mosques in Saudi and the gulf states.The imams urged their followers to overthrow the heretic Alawites or shias in Syria.
The US again called the uprising in Syria a fight for democracy.
Is Australia a paid up member of the US empire?Any country of strategic value that does not defer to the US Caesar will either be attacked, or sanctions taken against them.


----------



## luutzu (21 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You are now blaming the famine in Yemen on the US ?




US and Saudi Arabia.

From the Wikileak that Chelsea Manning released way back in 2011, Yemen's former president "agreed" to say that the drones on rebels/terrorists in Yemen was order and carried out by him and his government, not by the US under order from Obama.

There was some law about the US not being able to start new war and new fronts without US Congress approval... guess they've since got the idea that it's alright to do so.

Since 2011, since the uprising that drove the Saudi-backed president in Yemen out... the Saudis have been bombing the crap out of Yemen. This was done with US and UK arms, such as cluster bombs... Saudi jets are fuelled by US air tankers; intelligence and targets provided by US.

That and it's quite obvious that the Saudis cannot pick their nose without US permission. That's what imperial power means.


----------



## noco (21 May 2017)

It is good to see a firm hand is being taken by Peter Dutton to remove these illegals who refuse to co-operate...
There were  6 Iranian men who stated they could not return to Iran for fear of persecution and yet they were quite happy to return for a holiday to see their families.......Where did they get the money for their air fares?.....They lied and should be kicked out as Peter Dutton has stated but he was over ruled by  Labor stooge in the Refuge Tribunal.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...n/news-story/cdc076a85ba9d08f23af948beeb512a3


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## Tisme (21 May 2017)

noco said:


> It is good to see a firm hand is being taken by Peter Dutton to remove these illegals who refuse to co-operate...
> There were  6 Iranian men who stated they could not return to Iran for fear of persecution and yet they were quite happy to return for a holiday to see their families.......Where did they get the money for their air fares?.....They lied and should be kicked out as Peter Dutton has stated but he was over ruled by  Labor stooge in the Refuge Tribunal.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...n/news-story/cdc076a85ba9d08f23af948beeb512a3





He has the power of veto Noco....send him an email asking why he hasn't used it if he is so determined.....

My gut feel is zero result on both counts.


----------



## noco (21 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> He has the power of veto Noco....send him an email asking why he hasn't used it if he is so determined.....
> 
> My gut feel is zero result on both counts.




http://www.skynews.com.au/news/poli...an-refugee-claims-not-credible--turnbull.html


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## Tisme (21 May 2017)

noco said:


> http://www.skynews.com.au/news/poli...an-refugee-claims-not-credible--turnbull.html




More political grand standing. Do that mob ever take responsibility for anything? Blaming Labor is so stale even the LNP rank and file have had enough of the no can do attitude.


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## noco (21 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> More political grand standing. Do that mob ever take responsibility for anything? Blaming Labor is so stale even the LNP rank and file have had enough of the no can do attitude.




Those Gillard Labor stooges are about to be replaced.


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## Tisme (21 May 2017)

noco said:


> Those Gillard Labor stooges are about to be replaced.




They are more Menzies stooges, but Menzies didn't have to worry about fiscal policy and budgets because it was the days before Hawke/Paul Keating and free markets.


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## luutzu (21 May 2017)

noco said:


> It is good to see a firm hand is being taken by Peter Dutton to remove these illegals who refuse to co-operate...
> There were  6 Iranian men who stated they could not return to Iran for fear of persecution and yet they were quite happy to return for a holiday to see their families.......Where did they get the money for their air fares?.....They lied and should be kicked out as Peter Dutton has stated but he was over ruled by  Labor stooge in the Refuge Tribunal.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...n/news-story/cdc076a85ba9d08f23af948beeb512a3




Orwell would call your positions on Muslims "double speak". You know, holding two opposition position at the same time, but does not see anything wrong or contradictory about them.

So Iran is a theocracy, run by Islamist. As we all know, Islam is evil and Muslims are savages and murderers. But... but how could anyone feel persecuted living under such regime? It must be economic migration.

Here's another one... we go into the entire Middle East to free and liberate the poor and oppressed Muslims. Bringing them democracy and freedom. BUT... but if freedom doesn't come soon enough and they escaped and managed to survive getting to our borders, we tell them to go screw themselves.


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## noco (23 May 2017)

Where is the Human Rights Commission?

Where is the RC into child abuse?

What are they going to do about it?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/3559573...lian-child-brides-forced-into-marriage/#page1


----------



## dutchie (23 May 2017)

The speech Donald Trump (and any other non muslim country) should have given..

http://www.xyz.net.au/goodbye-islam-the-speech-trump-should-have-given/
From David Hiscox

_“Dear people of the Muslim world, I come to Riyadh today to offer you a grand bargain. From this day forward, the United States of America will no longer arm any faction of Islam against another. We will acquiesce to the demand of many of your freedom fighters, along with many of your citizens, to remove our forces and our bases from all territory in the Islamic world. We will no longer tell you what to do, not with how you run your economies, how you engage with one another, nor with how you practice your religion._

_“The United States of America, from this day forward, gives you free reign over all your domain. We hope our friends and allies of the West will follow our example._

_“In reciprocation, our requirements, which we will be administering in full and to the letter, are as follows. Every resident of the United States of America who is a Muslim, regardless of whether or not they were born here, will from this day be forcibly removed from our territory, to yours, in an orderly and humane manner. No Muslim will ever set foot ever again in the the United States of America. Islam is from this day forward banned in the USA. All trade with the Muslim world and the USA will cease, even all transitory travel by air will cease._

_“The USA is going no contact with Islam._

_“We are doing this because we understand that from the moment your ancient warlord Mohammed and his descendants burst forth from the Arabian Peninsula bearing your ideology of Islam, it has posed an existential threat to Christendom, to Europa. We may have bought a few centuries grace for Western civilisation by beating your armies back out of most of Europe, and by colonising other lands, but now you are employing the tactic of terror against our people, justified explicitly by the Quran, and the tactic of Hijrah in order to defeat us demographically. We are by your own definition your enemy, to be subjugated by all means necessary, and you desire for the whole world to submit to Islam._

_“We will never submit. That is why we are saying goodbye. I have thus come here today, to say goodbye to you. We hope our friends and allies of the West will follow our example._

_“I leave with one promise, however. After we have cleansed ourselves of your ideology, for every Islamic attack on American soil, American people, or American interests, one entire province of the former Roman Empire in North Africa, the Middle East, or Anatolia, will be reconquered, the infidel expelled (by infidel I mean Muslim) and its territory returned to Europa._

_“Goodbye Islam.”_


----------



## noco (23 May 2017)

I trust Trump had a whisper in Malcolm's ear when they met.......Time for Australia to take the same action.......99% of Australians do not want Muslims in Australia...FULL STOP.


----------



## Jorgensen (23 May 2017)

Can you remember when Indonesia were going to invade Australia?.Being from the southern states I heard this from the fringes.In the end I talked to a group of Queensland caravaners who were also spreading this.When asked why they thought this, the response was-we are closer to Indonesia and know more about it than the southerners.


----------



## noco (23 May 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> Can you remember when Indonesia were going to invade Australia?.Being from the southern states I heard this from the fringes.In the end I talked to a group of Queensland caravaners who were also spreading this.When asked why they thought this, the response was-we are closer to Indonesia and know more about it than the southerners.




The stupid Labor Party allowed the Indonesians to send 50,000 Muslims to invade our country by boats.....1200 drowned at sea.......8000 children keep in detention.....Cost $13.7 billion plus $1.6 billion per year since to keep them on welfare.

Have no fear.....The Indonesians knew exactly what they were doing as part of the plot for Islamic domination of Australia....Hell has no fury as to what may have happened had the Labor Party continued in power after  2013....Chaos would have been the order of the day.


----------



## Jorgensen (23 May 2017)

noco said:


> The stupid Labor Party allowed the Indonesians to send 50,000 Muslims to invade our country by boats.....1200 drowned at sea.......8000 children keep in detention.....Cost $13.7 billion plus $1.6 billion per year since to keep them on welfare.
> 
> Have no fear.....The Indonesians knew exactly what they were doing as part of the plot for Islamic domination of Australia....Hell has no fury as to what may have happened had the Labor Party continued in power after  2013....Chaos would have been the order of the day.



This was in the 1980s,well before the invasions in the Middle East resulted in widespread refugees.The way you talk I do not think that you have any empathy or compassion for drowned Muslims.


----------



## noco (23 May 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> This was in the 1980s,well before the invasions in the Middle East resulted in widespread refugees.The way you talk I do not think that you have any empathy or compassion for drowned Muslims.




Correction.....the Muslim invasion it happened between 2007/2013 during the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd era.

Did the Green/Labor socialist coalition have any passion for the 1200 drowned at sea including children?


----------



## dutchie (23 May 2017)

noco said:


> Did the Green/Labor socialist coalition have any passion for the 1200 drowned at sea including children?



"Accidents happen..." (SHY)


----------



## wayneL (23 May 2017)

Targeting teenage girls now. Justify this one Grasshopper. 

http://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...g/news-story/6d44d0f690fc6b70884239fd142eb7aa


----------



## Jorgensen (23 May 2017)

noco said:


> Correction.....the Muslim invasion it happened between 2007/2013 during the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd era.
> 
> Did the Green/Labor socialist coalition have any passion for the 1200 drowned at sea including children?



Maybe I wasn't clear but this was a large scale military invasion they were talking about,nothing to do with refugees..well before that.Conspiracy theories ,probably originating in Queensland...maybe so maybe not.
You seem unable to see anything other than through a party political prism.
Did you ever have a Christian upbringing ?
You seem to be full of loathing and hatred for people that you do not even know.


----------



## dutchie (23 May 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> You seem to be full of loathing and hatred for people that you do not even know.




I think we know, by their actions, them alright and one day you will too.


----------



## luutzu (23 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> The speech Donald Trump (and any other non muslim country) should have given..
> 
> http://www.xyz.net.au/goodbye-islam-the-speech-trump-should-have-given/
> From David Hiscox
> ...





ha ha.  
Good one.


----------



## Jorgensen (23 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> I think we know, by their actions, them alright and one day you will too.



What I do know is that Australians have killed more Muslims-than the other way round.Why the irrational hatred?The vast majority of human beings want to be decent people.Its only the extremists at either end of the spectrum that are reprehensible.


----------



## luutzu (23 May 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> What I do know is that Australians have killed more Muslims-than the other way round.Why the irrational hatred?The vast majority of human beings want to be decent people.Its only the extremists at either end of the spectrum that are reprehensible.




How else do we justify taking their only source of wealth and cluster fark their entire country into more of a desert, making future survival almost impossible?

Come on man, we're good Christians with good value. Can't just march into people's home and take their stuff, tell them what to do like we own the place.

As Jesus Christ taught us, brand them evil first, then you take all their stuff. And if any of them get upset and go nuts for you doing that, blame such uncivilised behaviour on their culture and religion... then take more stuff.


----------



## dutchie (23 May 2017)

Islam targets teenagers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4531940/Emergency-services-rush-Manchester-Arena.html


----------



## Tisme (23 May 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> You seem to be full of loathing and hatred for people that you do not even know.




The same could be said of you defensive behaviour to people you do not even know.

The question really is does a faith in Islam translate into a threat to those who do not? 

I would say yes given the unphathomable stupidity of people willing to give their freedom of expression and decency over to a made up bunch of yarns and rules designed to invoke fear of retribution by a crazed, violent mob backed by a viscous invisible man.


----------



## luutzu (23 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> The same could be said of you defensive behaviour to people you do not even know.
> 
> The question really is does a faith in Islam translate into a threat to those who do not?
> 
> I would say yes given the unphathomable stupidity of people willing to give their freedom of expression and decency over to a made up bunch of yarns and rules designed to invoke fear of retribution by a crazed, violent mob backed by a viscous invisible man.




and that makes Islam completely different to other religions... how?

Ivanka Trump just shook $100M out of the Saudi and United Arab Emirates for a "Women's Fund". You know, helping women around the world being born into a really rich family so they can grow up exploiting other women at a buck a day making tacky overpriced crap. 

Islam is so bad that the worst aspect of it being in power is fine, as long as they pay up. 

We really are stupid. Debating who's more evil, whose God's better... all the while putting ourselves and our neighbours at risk while terrorists and warmongers are having their best years and quarterlies ever! Tax free too.


----------



## Tisme (23 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> and that makes Islam completely different to other religions... how?
> 
> .




Thread Title:

*"Islam: Is it inherently Evil?"*


----------



## Boggo (23 May 2017)

Interesting !

http://pickeringpost.com/story/parents-wait-many-pointlessly-for-their-children/7172


----------



## luutzu (23 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Thread Title:
> 
> *"Islam: Is it inherently Evil?"*




Fair enough.

Can't wait to see the titles and headlines when "we" go to war with China.

Since Russia is still a communist enemy, not sure what China will be seeing how practically all our corporations are doing business with it. 

Maybe it's Confucius and Sun Tzu that's to be blame.


----------



## dutchie (23 May 2017)

The government is like the Lindt terror attack. Lets wait till he (Man monis) kills someone before we go in.

Lets wait till there are sufficient terror attacks before we do something about it.

(How many children need to die before there is any action????)


----------



## noco (23 May 2017)

Boggo said:


> Interesting !
> 
> http://pickeringpost.com/story/parents-wait-many-pointlessly-for-their-children/7172




I hope that dumb f***er of a leader of ours sits up and takes some notice.......With Trump on the trail of Islam, many Muslims would already be preparing to leave the USA.

We need some action here as well and not stupid rhetoric from both Federal leaders....One is as dumb as the other.


----------



## Tisme (23 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> The government is like the Lindt terror attack. Lets wait till he (Man monis) kills someone before we go in.
> 
> Lets wait till there are sufficient terror attacks before we do something about it.
> 
> (How many children need to die before there is any action????)




Our agencies are known for careful consideration before acting:

1) Thredbo Landslide
2)  Beaconsfield Mine
3) Victorian bushfires
4) Brisbane floods

It's important to make sure paperwork is completed, gender participation equality established,  racial mix proportional, psychology profiling of victims, impact statements, job specific SWMS, copious use of words like "framework" "strategic" "organic", etc prior to doing what would have been done by real doers regardless of a Biro.


----------



## moXJO (23 May 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> What I do know is that Australians have killed more Muslims-than the other way round.Why the irrational hatred?The vast majority of human beings want to be decent people.Its only the extremists at either end of the spectrum that are reprehensible.



We don't make it a habit of purposely droping bombs on teenage girls. Thats a s.hitty comparison to make.


----------



## noco (23 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Our agencies are known for careful consideration before acting:
> 
> 1) Thredbo Landslide
> 2)  Beaconsfield Mine
> ...




You are pathetic Tisme, trying to compare other natural events with something so torrid....Where is your compassion?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 May 2017)

As the thread starter I suppose I should make some comments. This is driven by the events yesterday in Manchester, although as of this time, it is not conclusive that an Islamist was the perpetrator.

I did have some Muslim friends, two families who have since moved away from Townsville. Excellent people, helpful and considerate, insightful and religious in moderation.

We are unfortunately in a clash of cultures, the West for the most part throwing off religion as a mainstay of rectitude and the Islamic world in turmoil, like a drunk in a brewery, excuse the sacrilege. 

Unfortunately I do not think this will all end well. Islamists have caused much angst to the USA, UK, China and Russia. It is moot as to whether the religion is "Inherently Evil". 

In our day it certainly brings out the evil in many, such as those monsters Sharrouf, Prakash, Monis and the others. So in that way it is evil. Bad and mad seem to be attracted to religion.

Then again Christianity has bred it's own monsters through the ages, up until our time, with the paedophilia revelations continuing. I do worry about all those young boys in the Islamist madrasses, no doubt there will be allegations coming through in the next few years. 

I have no wish to inflame emotions or denigrate. No Religion is exceptional. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. Islamic Jihadism is a significant threat to our culture and evil. 

gg


----------



## Tisme (23 May 2017)

noco said:


> You are pathetic Tisme, trying to compare other natural events with something so torrid....Where is your compassion?





Mate grab a dollar and go buy a clue. Better still grab two dollars and buy  "Comprehension for  Dummies" too.


----------



## Tisme (23 May 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Islamic Jihadism is a significant threat to our culture and evil.




Islamic "Jingoism" is the real problem.


----------



## Tisme (23 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Can't wait to see the titles and headlines when "we" go to war with China.
> 
> ...




Just remember, that as Australians we are always right. It's one of the benefits of shaking off divides of the old world.


----------



## luutzu (23 May 2017)

noco said:


> I hope that dumb f***er of a leader of ours sits up and takes some notice.......With Trump on the trail of Islam, many Muslims would already be preparing to leave the USA.
> 
> We need some action here as well and not stupid rhetoric from both Federal leaders....One is as dumb as the other.




Trump, his family and corporate America was in Saudi Arabia doing business, selling arms and getting paid. So how or where do you get the idea that Trump is going to do anything about radical Islam and fight for "western value" and all that bs.

Some Middle Eastern experts have said that Said Arabia is the ISIS that made it. They got themselves a protector, literally... or maybe a master, hard to tell the difference sometime. 

Don't you get it man? It's not about culture or religion or civilisation at a clash. It's just old fashion imperialism where we plebs and their goat herders pay with both our lives and our treasure... all so that the great men of destiny like Trump and his sycophants decides life and death on all our azzes. 

Watch how these deaths will be use to wage more wars and kill more (other) people who have nothing to do with it.


----------



## luutzu (23 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Just remember, that as Australians we are always right. It's one of the benefits of shaking off divides of the old world.




I always thought that it was our Great Protector who's always right. We just kinda bow our head and carry the bags to where they point as to.


----------



## noco (23 May 2017)

Here is what Islam is costing Australia.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/663454310378140/permalink/1464832586906971/


----------



## SirRumpole (23 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> The government is like the Lindt terror attack. Lets wait till he (Man monis) kills someone before we go in.
> 
> Lets wait till there are sufficient terror attacks before we do something about it.
> 
> (How many children need to die before there is any action????)




What action would you suggest ?


----------



## dutchie (24 May 2017)

Stop all immigration of muslims!!!


----------



## Tisme (24 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> Stop all immigration of muslims!!!




What about the second gens who won't embrace Australian law? Do we wait until they obey their natural instincts for deception and barbarity and how do we screen for them when many have been ensconced in govt entities under the destructive guise of equal opportunity for the least talented.


----------



## dutchie (24 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> What about the second gens who won't embrace Australian law? Do we wait until they obey their natural instincts for deception and barbarity and how do we screen for them when many have been ensconced in govt entities under the destructive guise of equal opportunity for the least talented.



First we must limit the size of the pool of psychopaths. Then we can tackle what is already here.


----------



## noco (24 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What action would you suggest ?




Do a Donald Trump and systematically send them back to where they came from.....They either shape up or ship out......Denounce their association  with Islam, abide by the laws of the country and assimilate.....If they don't, then they get a one way ticket out of the country and the same thing should apply here in Australia.


----------



## DB008 (24 May 2017)

Inbreeding doesn't help either.

Marrying first cousins, over and over has to have some sort of detrimental effect.


----------



## basilio (24 May 2017)

The last few posts on here are rank.  Tarring 1 billion plus people and one of the worlds biggest religions with the behaviour of a splinter group (that has to be dealt with..)  is just wrong and evil.
Please re consider folks. These posts are inflammatory and not worthy of publication.
2747,   2746,  2745


----------



## SirRumpole (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> The last few posts on here are rank.  Tarring 1 billion plus people and one of the worlds biggest religions with the behaviour of a splinter group (that has to be dealt with..)  is just wrong and evil.
> Please re consider folks. These posts are inflammatory and not worthy of publication.
> 2747,   2746,  2745




The bigness of a religion doesn't make it good. Islam is basically held together by violent punishments of those who criticise it or try to leave the cult. This has been shown many times.

The punishments meted out to young girls who are alone with their boyfriends or homosexual men amount to torture. People who allow or condone this sort of thing in the name of their religion are carriers of a disease even if they don't exhibit symptons.

The only thing you can do about communicable diseases is keep the carriers isolated, preferably in another country.


----------



## Tisme (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> The last few posts on here are rank.  Tarring 1 billion plus people and one of the worlds biggest religions with the behaviour of a splinter group (that has to be dealt with..)  is just wrong and evil.
> Please re consider folks. These posts are inflammatory and not worthy of publication.
> 2747,   2746,  2745





This word "tarring" is that some kind of attack on black people? I'm pretty sure if you went to the USA and used that vernacular you'd be held to account.

I'm not apologising for anything. None of us needed a crystal ball to know the upshot of the imposed guilt that civilised nations have had foisted on them by the mouth pieces for assimilation of the good into the the bad, rather than the otherway around. We smarties invited knuckle draggers of any society to the party and expected way to much of them. Sure on occasion one or two might delight us with skills worthy of a civilised person (ABC staff and ring ins), but that's sideshow applause and not tantamount to a general display across the board. 

It won't be your biggest religion mates who come to your rescue when the real deal starts that's for sure. When you see one of yours laying lifeless of on the floor from a suicide bomber you will be baying for religious majority blood for sure.

A pig with lipstick is still a pig.


----------



## dutchie (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> The last few posts on here are rank.  Tarring 1 billion plus people and one of the worlds biggest religions with the behaviour of a splinter group (that has to be dealt with..)  is just wrong and evil.
> Please re consider folks. These posts are inflammatory and not worthy of publication.
> 2747,   2746,  2745




Stop all immigration of muslims.


----------



## basilio (24 May 2017)

Are we ready for  a *Kristallnacht ?  *Is our righteous anger at the evil infidel ready to spontaneously erupt into a nationwide pogrom followed by a "humane" explusion and internment of all these dangerous people, confiscation of their assets and cleansing of the motherland ?
Come on Tisme  et co this  language is hate speech.

 Honestly I don't think this thread is a good look for Aussie Stock Forum. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

_____________________________________

*Definition of 'tarred with the same brush'*
English: tarred with the same brush
American: tarred with the same brush
*tarred with the same brush *
phrase
If some people in a group behave badly and if people then wrongly think that all of the group is equally bad, you can say that the whole group is tarred with the same brush.


----------



## Tisme (24 May 2017)

The trouble with handbooks is that they provide a wealth of information to the competition too:

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0024/002470/247074e.pdf


----------



## Tisme (24 May 2017)

noco said:


> Do a Donald Trump and systematically send them back to where they came from.....They either shape up or ship out......Denounce their association  with Islam, abide by the laws of the country and assimilate.....If they don't, then they get a one way ticket out of the country and the same thing should apply here in Australia.





I think are in for the long haul:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...p/news-story/2c8822fc2546fb439cd8e7c58366da16


----------



## SirRumpole (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> Are we ready for  a *Kristallnacht ?  *Is our righteous anger at the evil infidel ready to spontaneously erupt into a nationwide pogrom followed by a "humane" explusion and internment of all these dangerous people, confiscation of their assets and cleansing of the motherland ?
> Come on Tisme  et co this  language is hate speech.
> 
> Honestly I don't think this thread is a good look for Aussie Stock Forum.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht




No need for that extreme.

We have a choice who we allow into this country. Personally I don't see an economic imperative for any immigration at the moment as wages are declining which means an oversupply of labour, but if we do let people in it should be because we think that they can contribute to our economy and society.

Education level, employment history, skill levels, security assessments, English speaking abilities and criminal records are all valid criteria for consideration, not just because they have relatives living here.


----------



## Tisme (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> Are we ready for  a *Kristallnacht ?  *Is our righteous anger at the evil infidel ready to spontaneously erupt into a nationwide pogrom followed by a "humane" explusion and internment of all these dangerous people, confiscation of their assets and cleansing of the motherland ?
> Come on Tisme  et co this  language is hate speech.
> 
> Honestly I don't think this thread is a good look for Aussie Stock Forum.
> ...





Yeah, but you know I have form and reputation to maintain. 

Defenestration is so old skool, a Jewish tradition that goes back to Jezebel. These days we take the whole building out.


----------



## moXJO (24 May 2017)

Indonesia was once held up as the moderate muslim model society. It is now on a backwards trend.

 Religion in general is a terrible thing when its combined with those seeking power over others.


----------



## Joe Blow (24 May 2017)

There has been some concern expressed to me that this thread may be turning the corner into hatemongering. Although clearly it has become a very emotive issue, especially given the recent spate of terrorist attacks in Western countries targeting civilians.

It is always preferable that logical, well reasoned arguments are employed when debating any topic. Please try and take the emotion out and just argue your position based on facts and logic. I don't think you can go wrong with that approach.


----------



## basilio (24 May 2017)

Thanks for that Joe. From my perspective I fear that generalising the actions of IS across all the Islamic community is  just giving them victory on a plate. The  *stated objective* of OS is to create a war between Islam and the West. Why do we want to buy into such a devastating outcome ?

Clearly we need to stop IS and create a constructive relationship with all people including Muslims. Treating all Muslims as potential terrorists is as crackers as treating all Americans as  potential war mongers or all men as potential rapists and .. hopefully it's clear.

The poisonous danger is the title of this thread and the underlying question/assumption.  I have always been concerned about it  as unnecessarily inflammatory and sure enough much of the posting has followed that lead.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> Thanks for that Joe. From my perspective I fear that generalising the actions of IS across all the Islamic community is  just giving them victory on a plate. The  *stated objective* of OS is to create a war between Islam and the West. Why do we want to buy into such a devastating outcome ?
> 
> Clearly we need to stop IS and create a constructive relationship with all people including Muslims. Treating all Muslims as potential terrorists is as crackers as treating all Americans as  potential war mongers or all men as potential rapists and .. hopefully it's clear.
> 
> The poisonous danger is the title of this thread and the underlying question/assumption.  I have always been concerned about it  as unnecessarily inflammatory and sure enough much of the posting has followed that lead.




If you are insinuating that we should not criticise an ideology that motivates people to kill others, I respectively must disagree with you.


----------



## Tisme (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> Thanks for that Joe. From my perspective I fear that generalising the actions of IS across all the Islamic community is  just giving them victory on a plate.




how so? Did we give China and Russia a victory on a plate? Howse their communism and agression going now? 



basilio said:


> The  *stated objective* of OS is to create a war between Islam and the West. Why do we want to buy into such a devastating outcome ?




Because someone is picking a fight doesn't mean a fight is avoidable nor unwarranted. History is littered with leaders who thought they could rely on a compact rather than domination.



basilio said:


> Clearly we need to stop IS and create a constructive relationship with all people including Muslims. Treating all Muslims as potential terrorists is as crackers as treating all Americans as  potential war mongers or all men as potential rapists and .. hopefully it's clear.




Why do you assume Muslims aren't potential terrorists or their supporters? We saw a whole nation in Germany and Ireland turn into animals. We recently saw the USA vote in Donald Trump....never underestimate the gullibility and tribal loyalties of the masses.




basilio said:


> The poisonous danger is the title of this thread and the underlying question/assumption.  I have always been concerned about it  as unnecessarily inflammatory and sure enough much of the posting has followed that lead.




That assumes the people you are defending are stupid enough to feel hurt over the stuff posted here


----------



## luutzu (24 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If you are insinuating that we should not criticise an ideology that motivates people to kill others, I respectively must disagree with you.




And what ideology murdered those kids in Manchester? Islam or Terrorism? They're not the same thing.

By all mean criticise Islam, poke holes into its beliefs and hierarchies etc. etc. But also, to be fair, are other religion any different? Name one other religion that doesn't have a similar belief system about God, Creation, saints and sinners, infidels and crusaders. And no, those religion still believe the same tales and commandments as  written down by the prophets or the saints from either God Himself or the Son of Heaven.


Tisme said:


> how so? Did we give China and Russia a victory on a plate? Howse their communism and agression going now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Whole new level of respect for you McGee. Honestly. 

And here I did wondered whether your late wife was the better half and forced you into adopting those kids.


----------



## dutchie (24 May 2017)

Every muslim is a potential terrorist, the Koran instructs them to be.
Why on earth should we take the risk. There is no upside.


----------



## basilio (24 May 2017)

So which unhinged individual has hijacked Tismes account ?  Truly post 2762 has some of the most illogical, nasty and hopelessly wrong comments I have ever heard.

Since when did ISIS speak on behalf of every Muslim? We are fighting ISIS not trying to take on a billion plus people and destroy the economic and political structures around the world.

During WW2/IRA troubles political common sense and humanity stopped most people from wanting to crucify every Irishman and every German.

And your coup de grace
 "_That assumes the people you are defending are stupid enough to feel hurt over the stuff posted here"_
So. Far. *OFF*
Whoever you are. Get a grip on yourself.  IMO that post should not be on this forum.


----------



## luutzu (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> So which unhinged individual has hijacked Tismes account ?  Truly post 2762 has some of the most illogical, nasty and hopelessly wrong comments I have ever heard.
> 
> Since when did ISIS speak on behalf of every Muslim? We are fighting ISIS not trying to take on a billion plus people and destroy the economic and political structures around the world.
> 
> ...




I could be wrong, very wrong, about this but the thing to do when reading Tisme's post is, first, recognise that he have that Irish sense of humour; second, he's a closeted liberal.

He's quite impressive if you don't take what he say at face value. Though sometime, it's a bit tough to know. Could very just be that he's off his meds now and then.


----------



## luutzu (24 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> Every muslim is a potential terrorist, the Koran instructs them to be.
> Why on earth should we take the risk. There is no upside.




We take risks because we're explorers and pioneers, dam it.


----------



## basilio (24 May 2017)

The current vitriol on this thread has sprung from the terrorist attack in Manchester. I reckon George Monbiot has taken the best pitch on where to go from this horror.

* Don’t let psychopathic murderers suppress our common humanity *





George Monbiot
In the face of horror, let no one distract us from the magnificent facts of our nature: neither the terrorists nor those who demand we lash out
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Wednesday 24 May 2017 04.08 AEST   Last modified on Wednesday 24 May 2017 14.18 AEST

It is a blow to the heart: an atrocity whose purpose was to kill and maim as many children and teenagers as possible. No parent, hearing the voices of those still seeking news of their children, could fail to imagine the frantic play of hope and despair, the terrible wrenching of attachment. The person or people who did this meant to hit where it hurts most, and they succeeded.

The purpose of terrorism, whether perpetrated by lone attackers, organisations or states, is not only to change political outcomes: it is to demoralise the people at whom it is aimed, to erode and degrade their humanity. Attacking a concert crammed with happy young people, detonating a bomb apparently stuffed with nails and bolts, is the clearest possible statement of such intent.

*It also allows us to see how we should respond. The terrorists want to drive us apart, to sow suspicion and fear, to oblige us to replace liberty with security and answer them with bombs and bullets of our own. For a terrorist organisation any of this, if implemented, would mean mission accomplished. So we should do the opposite. We defy them by proving that this is not what we are. And the proof is everywhere.

.....This is why terrorism happens: those who perpetrate it know that an attack on one is an attack on all. People are killed or injured in order to maximise the distress suffered by a far greater number – and to induce us, blinded by outrage, to forget our humanity and to lash out. This then cultivates a political environment in which terrorists prosper: a nation dominated by fear, a cycle of revenge, and the escalation of conflict.
*
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...pathic-murderers-manchester-attack-terrorists


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## SirRumpole (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> Since when did ISIS speak on behalf of every Muslim? We are fighting ISIS not trying to take on a billion plus people and destroy the economic and political structures around the world.




I think you just have to look at how things are done in virtually every Muslim country in the world. Those that have always been extreme show no signs of changing, and those that were once moderate are becoming more hardline.

Two men today are about to be or already have been tortured in Indonesia for activities which are their own business and nobody elses. Young girls are flogged there for being alone with their boyfriends. Women are stoned for being raped, people are beheaded for marrying who they choose.

Do you really blame people like me for not wanting these things to happen here ? The more Muslims there are in this country, the closer we get to a repressive theocracy that occurs in other Muslim controlled or dominated countries elsewhere.


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## moXJO (24 May 2017)

Humanity is for pussies. Nothing like dropping 200 tons of explosive freedom on the problem.


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## basilio (24 May 2017)

Rumpole what is happening in Indonesia under Sharia law is disturbing and dangerous. It does reflect the rise of a repressive element of Islam in that part of Indonesia. The part that does cause concern is if these extremist elements of Islamic faith take control of more political areas - including Australia.

I think it's wrong. I believe they should be resisted and all religions need to accept the the current laws of the land. But I can't see how demonising all Muslims for the behaviour of extreme elements is a constructive approach. But we do need to be upfront that Australia has a clear legal system and that religious imposed laws are not acceptable.


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## SirRumpole (24 May 2017)

basilio said:


> But we do need to be upfront that Australia has a clear legal system and that religious imposed laws are not acceptable.




Sure, agreed there, but it will make no difference if Muslims get to be such a political force that they vote away our freedoms and replace it with their repression, and the only way I can see to prevent this happening is to limit their numbers here.


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## Value Collector (24 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, agreed there, but it will make no difference if Muslims get to be such a political force that they vote away our freedoms and replace it with their repression, and the only way I can see to prevent this happening is to limit their numbers here.




We never needed laws reducing the number of catholics, to protect ourselves from becoming a Christian theocracy.

Offcourse there is some noisy christians on the side lines always trying to grab power, but the majority of the population won't have it, its the same with the majority of muslims, especially as they become more westernised.


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## Value Collector (24 May 2017)

moXJO said:


> Humanity is for pussies. Nothing like dropping 200 tons of explosive freedom on the problem.



Have you ever had to actually witness that? or do you just think thats a cool thing to say?


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## SirRumpole (24 May 2017)

Value Collector said:


> We never needed laws reducing the number of catholics, to protect ourselves from becoming a Christian theocracy.




Yes we did, it's called separation of Church and state, but that didn't stop the Catholics getting their paws into politics to preserve their sacred doctrines. The Muslims are no better if they ever get the chance.


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## Value Collector (24 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes we did, it's called separation of Church and state, but that didn't stop the Catholics getting their paws into politics to preserve their sacred doctrines. The Muslims are no better if they ever get the chance.




There were no laws reducing the number of catholics allowed in the country.


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## SirRumpole (24 May 2017)

Value Collector said:


> There were no laws reducing the number of catholics allowed in the country.




There probably should have been.


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## moXJO (24 May 2017)

Islam is a backwards a$$ religion when it inserts itself at a higher level and is pushed by those that are power hungry. All religions are.

Indonesia was a prime recent example after they jailed Ahok. And it was the vocal minority which took a hold, that was concerning.Numerous other examples coming out of there. 
Malaysia is another example.
 Extremists are taking hold in numbers and their  $hit is staining the moderates who now are voiceless against what is taking hold.

Not discussing the problem is the exact way you create a bigger one. And Islamic immigration is causing problems throughout western countries.

I don't believe Muslims will get a hold here thats just irrational fear. But the extremist base is already well established throughout Sydney. I'm more worried about the consequences of a terrorist attack on peoples already frayed psyche.


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## moXJO (24 May 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Have you ever had to actually witness that? or do you just think thats a cool thing to say?



Suckers always jump.

Yes I have witnessed it. I've pretty much seen it all in these $hitholes. The exact reason why you don't want to import it.


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## Tisme (24 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> I could be wrong, very wrong, about this but the thing to do when reading Tisme's post is, first, recognise that he have that Irish sense of humour; second, he's a closeted liberal.
> 
> He's quite impressive if you don't take what he say at face value. Though sometime, it's a bit tough to know. Could very just be that he's off his meds now and then.




 Can you feel the rage !


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## Tisme (24 May 2017)

moXJO said:


> Humanity is for pussies. Nothing like dropping 200 tons of explosive freedom on the problem.




Now that's a reply ...I'm still laughing


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## luutzu (24 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, agreed there, but it will make no difference if Muslims get to be such a political force that they vote away our freedoms and replace it with their repression, and the only way I can see to prevent this happening is to limit their numbers here.




More Muslims, more political power? 

Is that why the majority of (poor) Americans just "voted" for Trump so he would cut some $3.6Trillions over ten years on Medicaid for the poor and pensioners, cut $600B on food stamps so they can go on a diet every second day?

That and have the budget director literally calling these poor plebs "thieves" because apparently the poor are only supposed to pay taxes and get diddly in return for it. Well, maybe the 4th of July fireworks and being told how awesome the country is.

Same thing in Theresa May's Tory platform... stealing from the poor, kick the elderly who dare to get sick and live off of a welfare system they have been paying towards all their working life. Now they get to be sick, have the equity in their house taken out from under them so that once they kick the bucket, their poor working kid who can't afford a house get to enjoy fresh air and beautiful England winter, in the open. 

Then of course there's the poor kids... going to bed hungry and currently getting a couple pound's worth of breakfast at school the next day. Forget that soon kids, it's all the Muslim's fault that your government decided to cut corporate tax down to 17.5%, give more tax breaks to the rich. 

Similar thing is happening in Australia... you've read the headlines about the latest budget?

Yah, the plebs are losing their country. And it ain't the poor or the Muslims or the refugees.


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## Tisme (24 May 2017)

Value Collector said:


> We never needed laws reducing the number of catholics, to protect ourselves from becoming a Christian theocracy.
> 
> Offcourse there is some noisy christians on the side lines always trying to grab power, but the majority of the population won't have it, its the same with the majority of muslims, especially as they become more westernised.





The thread is about Islam. Catholics took a lickin' and we allowed them to keep tickin'.

Unlike Catholics, the next gen of Islam are the ones who are the current problem .... home grown aresholes


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## Tisme (24 May 2017)

Value Collector said:


> There were no laws reducing the number of catholics allowed in the country.




Yes there was. Immigration was regulated back then, don't think otherwise.


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## wayneL (24 May 2017)

Perhaps we should ask, if the poo really hits the propeller,  where folks loyalties will lie. 

Because Imo,  the poo will most assuredly hit the propeller soonish.


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## DB008 (24 May 2017)

Stockholm syndrome....


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## SirRumpole (25 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Is that why the majority of (poor) Americans just "voted" for Trump so he would cut some $3.6Trillions over ten years on Medicaid for the poor and pensioners, cut $600B on food stamps so they can go on a diet every second day?




What Trump is doing to the US poor and disadvantaged is objectionable, but there is another thread for that if you would like to post there, and you are resorting to your usual "look over there" tactics to distract attention away from the point of this thread, which is a discussion of Islam.


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## dutchie (25 May 2017)

Stop all immigration of muslims.

There is no upside

There is only downside ......

and heartache, like the parents of Saffie Rose Roussos will suffer for the rest of their lives.


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## Tink (25 May 2017)

Off topic --

Well you all must dislike our own country, if you are putting down our Christian heritage.

I will be standing up for the country I grew up in.
Accountability, achievement etc.

No more Political Correctness rubbish.

This is my view.


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## DB008 (25 May 2017)

The media is now self censoring.

British born, to parents who were refugees from Liybia, and Islamic, no doubt. ISIS have also claimed responsibility for the attack. If this is how we get our news, without detail, it's all over folks.

1984 territory...


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## dutchie (25 May 2017)

Why should we put up with having to resort to this sometime in the near future..........

Britain on lockdown: Army deploys 1,000 heavily armed soldiers to guard London


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4536602/Buckingham-Palace-military-armed-guard.html


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## Tisme (25 May 2017)

Tink said:


> Off topic --
> 
> Well you all must dislike our own country, if you are putting down our Christian heritage.
> 
> ...





An old fashioned, yet self evidently correct history. It will, of course, be rewritten out of our consciousness over the next few years; faster once Tanya and Penny becomes bosses of the washes in their respective parliamentary houses.


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## Tisme (25 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> Why should we put up with having to resort to this sometime in the near future..........
> 
> Britain on lockdown: Army deploys 1,000 heavily armed soldiers to guard London
> 
> ...




Our protectors will hide around the corner and have long discussions about what to do. The coroner's report on Lindt :  http://www.lindtinquest.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/findings-and-recommendations.pdf


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## SirRumpole (25 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> Our protectors will hide around the corner and have long discussions about what to do. The coroner's report on Lindt :  http://www.lindtinquest.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/findings-and-recommendations.pdf




I doubt if they will get another case like Monis again. It appeared he was a lone nutcase, the MO of the terrorists is to strike first and obviate the need for any negotiations.


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## luutzu (25 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What Trump is doing to the US poor and disadvantaged is objectionable, but there is another thread for that if you would like to post there, and you are resorting to your usual "look over there" tactics to distract attention away from the point of this thread, which is a discussion of Islam.




It wasn't off topic. 

You were saying that once there's enough Muslims in the country, they'll use their votes and turn Australia all Sharia. Something like that, right?

So I pointed to the fact that democracy doesn't work like that. That's why in any democratic (and Christian, even it's technically secular) country where the vast majority of voters are poor and/or working class (they preferred to be call "middle class" even though that's not technically true)... that in any democracy, what the majority wanted never ever get implemented. 

The only time real democracy happen was during revolutionary crisis where the elite and ruling class decided that they better give some more crumbs seeing how the plebs are sharpening their pitchforks.

And no, if you want to discuss how Islam and Muslims are evil, you got to understand the context, the history. And maybe, perhaps, that those cast stones shouldn't live in glass houses... or as Jesus once said to the stone throwers... let those without sin cast the first stone. 

I mean, if we just focus on the evil and murders committed by Muslims. Then leave it at that. There's not going to be much debate, is there? Might as well have a list of all crimes and terrorism committed by Muslims, ignore those committed by us and friends of ours... well, I guess we could just watch the mainstream media.


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## luutzu (25 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> Why should we put up with having to resort to this sometime in the near future..........
> 
> Britain on lockdown: Army deploys 1,000 heavily armed soldiers to guard London
> 
> ...




That's a very big and expensive version of keeping the lights on. Mommy and Daddy have checked the closet, looked under the bed, now the light's on so all is safe.

I just heard that back before the liberation of Iraq, Tony Blair order British tanks out in the open around Heathrow Airport. Just in case Saddam launches something.


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## luutzu (25 May 2017)

Tink said:


> Off topic --
> 
> Well you all must dislike our own country, if you are putting down our Christian heritage.
> 
> ...




There are certain heritage property that are nice and exemplary. Those should be preserve.

Then there are those that's just old and rundown. That might have been a good or acceptable idea at the time... but have since become dangerous ruins, scaring kids and all that. Remember, we got to save the children, god's beautiful children as the Yellow Emperor would say.


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## wayneL (25 May 2017)

I reckon we should reduce the number of moonbats and other virtue signallers.

A bigger threat imo


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## luutzu (25 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> I reckon we should reduce the number of moonbats and other virtue signallers.
> 
> A bigger threat imo





Know how violence and murder should never be justified? We should apply that rule to both ourselves and to other people. 

I have family and know people living in the UK. So if anything, I take terrorism quite seriously too. All these threat levels, pointing to Muslims and blaming Islam, moving homeless people out of the way, checking their bags... wtf?

We're angry and horrified at the indiscriminate killing of our people... but then for some reason, we think they shouldn't be upset when we flatten their homes, overthrow their government, kill their people by the millions, mock their culture, belittle their religion, take their resources... etc. etc. 

That's not to excuse violence and murder, just pointing out a fact that when people do that kind of stuff on other people, they might not like it. Might be pretty pizzed off.. .and now and again, one or more of them will resort to act of terrorism on us. 

So we either call up our politicians and ask them to work for us; or take their words that all these wars are necessary and ours and other people's lives are worth the sacrifice the warmongers are too willing to make on our behalf.


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## wayneL (25 May 2017)

Relevance, grasshopper?

apart from repeating yourself ad nauseam


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## luutzu (25 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> Relevance, grasshopper?
> 
> apart from repeating yourself ad nauseam




It's repeated because we're always following the same recipe. 

Doing the same thing over and over but hoping for a different result is the definition of what?

Oh, let's change it by setting up concentration camps and banning Mosques and stopping refugees. 

Anyway..


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## wayneL (25 May 2017)

My comment was about the ludicrous PC left, virtue signallers, bleeding hearts and The Moonbat, not muslims. 

If you're suggesting concentration camps for these cultural vandals,  I'm all for it as it is tantamount to treason.


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## luutzu (25 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> My comment was about the ludicrous PC left, virtue signallers, bleeding hearts and The Moonbat, not muslims.
> 
> If you're suggesting concentration camps for these cultural vandals,  I'm all for it as it is tantamount to treason.




Who are we going to put into those camps? If Terrorists then for sure. But aren't terrorists and other criminals already have places for them, right now? It's call a prison.

You talk about bleeding hearts, PC left and other idiots as though they're [we're] naive crazies suffering from Stockholm. What's the Right's "realist" solution? Wipe them out, lock them all up. Them being all Muslims and other undesirables. 

Who needs law and courts and rights and liberties when it mean we can't wage wars at will.


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## Tisme (25 May 2017)

This bloke obviously hasn't been told to get with the program and make excuses for Islamic bombers instead of helping victims:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-children-injured-arena-bombing-a7751656.html

And this guy is only encouraging Stephen's behaviour:

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...e-to-homeless-man-manchester-attack/22107322/


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## luutzu (25 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> This bloke obviously hasn't been told to get with the program and make excuses for Islamic bombers instead of helping victims:
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-children-injured-arena-bombing-a7751656.html
> 
> ...




Who's excusing terrorist or terrorism?

It goes without saying that such senseless murder is just horrific and inexcusable, and people like Stephen there and the first responders should all be thanked. All the flowers, the hopes and prayers from the politicians, the media... those aren't going to bring back the lives lost.

They're not going to prevent future attacks either. Neither will banning Muslims, burning down their Mosques, sending them to concentration camps or that final solution.

Calling them names, pointing to their terrorists as representative of all of their kind, pointing to our heroes as examples of who we all are... these make us feel better but are at best only partially true, it does not paint the whole picture. And it's that complete picture that we better try and see if we're going to seriously solve this war and terrorism business.


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## Tisme (25 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> And it's that complete picture that we better try and see if we're going to seriously solve this war and terrorism business.




"try to", not "try and"

grammar nazism


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## luutzu (25 May 2017)

Tisme said:


> "try to", not "try and"
> 
> grammar nazism




As long as that's the only Nazi stuff we're planning, it's cool.

btw, I would have thought there'd be more grammatical errors than that one you have found. I knew helping the kids with their readings weren't just for their benefit. 

And ey, when does the kids correcting us turn from pride to just outright annoyance at their supposed superiority?


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## noco (26 May 2017)




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## Kerway (26 May 2017)

Islam is not inherently evil. Just as the Allies were not evil when bombing men, woman and children during WW2. The problem lies with the hatred that a minority of them hold for Western culture and our way of life. In many cases, we have let them into our midst as refugees only for them to turn on the hand that feeds them.


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## noco (26 May 2017)

The Germans wanted to dominate the world and failed.

The Japanese tried and failed.

And now Islam is invading the Western World and they will be beaten back as well whether it is by civil war or by an Islam reform.......One way or the other they will fail.


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> My comment was about the ludicrous PC left, virtue signallers, bleeding hearts and The Moonbat, not muslims.
> 
> If you're suggesting concentration camps for these cultural vandals,  I'm all for it as it is tantamount to treason.




I'd certainly agree that we need to be careful about the many people who turn a blind eye to Fascist Islamism as the German people did before and during WW2.

The Nazi's began putting Jews, homosexuals, gypsies and criminals in to concentration camps and then moved on to Poles, Slavs and POWs from Russia. The destructive war was initially supported by Germans. The "good" Muslim diaspora similarly seem unable to contain the fascists amongst them. This bodes ill if ISIS continue their aggression in countries that have taken ordinary good Muslims as refugees.

Unfortunately many non Muslims of the Left/Green class support a "World Integration" and frown on closed borders, and these are now in control of our media and major think tanks and in some cases parliaments. I believe these are to whom you refer.

The answer is at hand, many left leaning publications such as Fairfax are going broke, the voters are electing more independents who reflect their views better than the parties and hopefully stronger measures on borders and fascism will eliminate Fascist Islamism.

So vote appropriately, don't buy or click on sites that oppose your views and be vigilant. 

gg


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## SirRumpole (26 May 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> left leaning publications such as Fairfax are going broke,




The company that publishes the Financial Review is left leaning ?

That's an interesting observation.


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The company that publishes the Financial Review is left leaning ?
> 
> That's an interesting observation.




Now come on Rumpole,

The AFR is the only publication that makes money for them. It is left leaning in many of it's opinion pieces, just as peculiarly the SMH editorials before the last few elections suggested voting Coalition.

The fact is that the Culture of Fairfax journalism is left-leaning. If you deny this you will piss off many Fairfax journos.

gg


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## SirRumpole (26 May 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Now come on Rumpole,
> 
> The AFR is the only publication that makes money for them. It is left leaning in many of it's opinion pieces, just as peculiarly the SMH editorials before the last few elections suggested voting Coalition.
> 
> ...




Well, I would have thought that they were pretty much in the centre, but I suppose that depends on where one stands oneself.


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## qldfrog (26 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, I would have thought that they were pretty much in the centre, but I suppose that depends on where one stands oneself.



They may not be so left as to be "green" but reading the AFR every week I am certain they do follow the now jopurnalism mainstream of globalism socialism or whatever we want to call that


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## noco (26 May 2017)

Islam!!!!!!   a religion of peace.......Islam is not a religion but a political ideology.


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, I would have thought that they were pretty much in the centre, but I suppose that depends on where one stands oneself.




As soft as brie a response, and not as sweet smelling. 

Take a stance Rumpole, you cad, argue and do not dissemble, or throw your wig in to the the Walbrook. 

gg


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## SirRumpole (26 May 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> As soft as brie a response, and not as sweet smelling.
> 
> Take a stance Rumpole, you cad, argue and do not dissemble, or throw your wig in to the the Walbrook.
> 
> gg




The last time I read the SMH (once a year while having my car serviced), I was not able to discern bias either way. There seemed a reasonable coverage of stories. What more can I say ?


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## Ves (26 May 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Unfortunately many non Muslims of the Left/Green class support a "World Integration" and frown on closed borders, and these are now in control of our media and major think tanks and in some cases parliaments. I believe these are to whom you refer.



The world integration you are talking about is part of the globalisation of economies.

This is a neo-liberal policy.  

It appears in policies on both the left and right of politics.

The theory is the the more people involved,  the more consumers you create.

It's actually pretty dishonest to say that it's only a "left/green" theme.


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 May 2017)

Ves said:


> The world integration you are talking about is part of the globalisation of economies.
> 
> This is a neo-liberal policy.
> 
> ...




I believe you are confusing Trade Globalisation and Thought/Belief/Civil Globalisation. 

Greens push the latter to the beat of their own drum.

gg


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## Ves (27 May 2017)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I believe you are confusing Trade Globalisation and Thought/Belief/Civil Globalisation.
> 
> Greens push the latter to the beat of their own drum.
> 
> gg



They both end up with the same result. There's no point splitting hairs over this,  Howard boosted immigration,  not because he gave a **** about helping who came in,  but because if enough of those people came in it would boost GDP. That's Neo-liberal economics in a nutshell.


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## wayneL (27 May 2017)

Ves said:


> They both end up with the same result. There's no point splitting hairs over this,  Howard boosted immigration,  not because he gave a **** about helping who came in,  but because if enough of those people came in it would boost GDP. That's Neo-liberal economics in a nutshell.



Oh come on Ves, boosting GDP via immigration is one thing, boosting the electoral prospects of the socialist left is quite another.

The people admitted are vastly different.


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## SirRumpole (27 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> Oh come on Ves, boosting GDP via immigration is one thing, boosting the electoral prospects of the socialist left is quite another.
> 
> The people admitted are vastly different.




You don't think that all the migrants Howard let in would have been grateful to him ?


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## wayneL (27 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You don't think that all the migrants Howard let in would have been grateful to him ?




Possibly,  but at least they would've boosted gdp instead living off our collective and unwilling largesse.


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## Ves (27 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> Oh come on Ves, boosting GDP via immigration is one thing, boosting the electoral prospects of the socialist left is quite another.
> 
> The people admitted are vastly different.



Neo-liberalism doesn't make any distinction in who gets let in - that's the whole point.  People are just more numbers. If you have a look how GDP is calculated to perpetuate the 'growth narrative' the modern world is obsessed with you will quickly realize that it doesn't matter who you let in,  they all boost GDP.

But apparently letting the 'wrong' people in is just a 'leftist' problem.


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## Ves (27 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> Possibly,  but at least they would've boosted gdp instead living off our collective and unwilling largesse.



That also boosts GDP. I think you're confusing GDP with productivity.


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## noco (27 May 2017)

Islam has to be stopped.......Strong action is needed.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-calls-war-west-holy-month-ramadan-143833648.html


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## noco (28 May 2017)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...d/news-story/bd29bdcb1870c49359288186e1a40e7e


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## orr (28 May 2017)

got 


noco said:


> Islam has to be stopped.......Strong action is needed.
> 
> https://uk.news.yahoo.com/islamic-state-calls-war-west-holy-month-ramadan-143833648.html





Got your wish n0oco... 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/27/...t&contentPlacement=5&pgtype=sectionfront&_r=0

All we need now is for a few more to 'firm-up' and get with the pointy white head gear and every thing'll be on the up, hey Cobber??

And this week the Yanks do a $110 Billion worth of Arms deals with the Cheif Wahabist Head Choppers... Nothing like stitching your Philipino maid you just raped for some Capitally punished mis-demeaned. No mixed messages there....

A little bit of 'hate to beget hate' _mate..._


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## noco (28 May 2017)

orr said:


> got
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Would  you please  elaborate on  my raping a Filipino maid.


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## noco (28 May 2017)

Can anyone believe the head of ASIO claims there is no connection between refugees and terrorism.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/a...d/news-story/bd29bdcb1870c49359288186e1a40e7e


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## DB008 (28 May 2017)

noco said:


> Can anyone believe the head of ASIO claims there is no connection between refugees and terrorism.




Head of ASIO making these claims. He should be sacked.


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## luutzu (28 May 2017)

Interesting interview on Iraq under Saddam.

Being a brutal that he was, he actually kept the social safety nets for the Iraqis all the way until the country was liberated, safety nets down the tube with all oil and whatever industry is left all privatised


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## wayneL (29 May 2017)

Ves said:


> Neo-liberalism doesn't make any distinction in who gets let in - that's the whole point.  People are just more numbers. If you have a look how GDP is calculated to perpetuate the 'growth narrative' the modern world is obsessed with you will quickly realize that it doesn't matter who you let in,  they all boost GDP.
> 
> But apparently letting the 'wrong' people in is just a 'leftist' problem.




Fair point if we are talking gross GDP, but while immigrants relying on welfare might boost GDP, it can't boost GDP *per capita*. Productive people prepared o put their nose to the grindstone will at least maintain this measure and potentially increase it.

Re your last sentence, it is not apparent, but rather obvious, as per the respective immigration policies.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 May 2017)

wayneL said:


> Fair point if we are talking gross GDP, but while immigrants relying on welfare might boost GDP, it can't boost GDP *per capita*. Productive people prepared o put their nose to the grindstone will at least maintain this measure and potentially increase it.
> 
> Re your last sentence, it is not apparent, but rather obvious, as per the respective immigration policies.




Your post is extremely biased if you are suggesting that the majority of immigrants coming here under Liberal government were all industrious and hardworking, while those coming under Labor were bludgers.

There is a spectrum in all cases.


----------



## noco (29 May 2017)

Alan Jones hits the nail on the head with Islamic terrorists in Australia.....He says they have to rooted out and dealt with accordingly.

https://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/vid...s-rips-muslim-leaders-to-shreds/?cmp=st#page1


----------



## wayneL (29 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Your post is extremely biased if you are suggesting that the majority of immigrants coming here under Liberal government were all industrious and hardworking, while those coming under Labor were bludgers.
> 
> There is a spectrum in all cases.



That pretty much sums up the intent over the long term,  no bias whatsoever,  just look at their respective policies on a practical basis.


----------



## dutchie (29 May 2017)

Marxists trying to brianwash the people:

ASIO chief Duncan Lewis who told a Senate hearing last week had no evidence to suggest any connection between refugees and terrorism.
An Australian doctors lobby group has dismissed the 'inherent links' between Islam and terrorism.

I'm not buying it.


----------



## noco (29 May 2017)

dutchie said:


> Marxists trying to brianwash the people:
> 
> ASIO chief Duncan Lewis who told a Senate hearing last week had no evidence to suggest any connection between refugees and terrorism.
> An Australian doctors lobby group has dismissed the 'inherent links' between Islam and terrorism.
> ...




And some 94.25% don't buy it either.......They must think we are fools.

https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lis...ees-and-terrorism-duncan-lewis-agree-disagree


----------



## basilio (29 May 2017)

noco said:


> And some 94.25% don't buy it either.......They must think we are fools.
> 
> https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lis...ees-and-terrorism-duncan-lewis-agree-disagree




One really has to read the comments under the poll on that thread to appreciate the reality disconnect that exists in our community. Very sobering stuff.


----------



## noco (29 May 2017)

basilio said:


> One really has to read the comments under the poll on that thread to appreciate the reality disconnect that exists in our community. Very sobering stuff.




I did  not note any support for Duncan Lewis.

Hope you read the other polls as well.......If you doubt their authenticity you will observe the vote number change when you cast your vote.......I do not see any trickery her.


----------



## basilio (29 May 2017)

No trickery Noco. It's crystal clear that hundreds/thousands of people just believe what they want to - regardless of facts. And like Donald Trump if they don't like the facts they create their own version of the world and dismiss the rest as fake news.

Who needs 1984 ? We're living the dream folks ...


----------



## noco (30 May 2017)

basilio said:


> No trickery Noco. It's crystal clear that hundreds/thousands of people just believe what they want to - regardless of facts. And like Donald Trump if they don't like the facts they create their own version of the world and dismiss the rest as fake news.
> 
> Who needs 1984 ? We're living the dream folks ...




REALLY!!!!!.........LMAO


----------



## wayneL (30 May 2017)

basilio said:


> No trickery Noco. It's crystal clear that hundreds/thousands of people just believe what they want to - regardless of facts. And like Donald Trump if they don't like the facts they create their own version of the world and dismiss the rest as fake news.
> 
> Who needs 1984 ? We're living the dream folks ...



I rather think you've been hoist by your own petard there, my virtue signalling friend.


----------



## noco (30 May 2017)

I have been accused of Muslim hatred but as this video shows it is OK for Muslims to express their hatred for non Muslims right here in Australia......A young Muslim girl is forbidden to become friends with a non Muslim girl......Is it any wonder the majority of true blue Aussies have become disgusted with the Islamic movement in Australia....What are we supposed to do?....Turn the other cheek!!


----------



## luutzu (30 May 2017)

noco said:


> I have been accused of Muslim hatred but as this video shows it is OK for Muslims to express their hatred for non Muslims right here in Australia......A young Muslim girl is forbidden to become friends with a non Muslim girl......Is it any wonder the majority of true blue Aussies have become disgusted with the Islamic movement in Australia....What are we supposed to do?....Turn the other cheek!!





Noco! Who one is saying there are no nutjobs or racists or religious fanatics or terrorists among Muslims. No one is saying that there are teachings in Islam that's sexist, a bit airy fairy - it's a religion, all religion have that, still do.

So when you go and list crimes and abuses Muslims commit... yea, of course. It's horrible and uncivilised and un-Australian, whatever that mean. 

But you got to also ask yourself, are there no pure White Aussie who's also racist, also religiously nut, also genocidal, also think that Christ is the only Lord and that God is the only one without anyone else before him, that we should all convert to their religion? 

Just as no one can excuse Muslims' or anyone's verbal and physical abuses; can't excuse maiming and killing of people... you can't excuse the "good" killing by properly uniformed armies but call the killing of terrorist "bad" because it's against us. They're all equally bad!

It's freaking horrible seeing the children of Manchester being killed so senselessly like that. There's just no excuse for it. But to put that on anyone beside the terrorists themselves, to blame an entire religion or people... that's where being called a racist and anti-Muslim comes in. 

Maybe take a look at how many hospitals, or villages, or dead beautiful babies the coalition of the liberators have been involved in recently. I guess they deserve it because their religion is this and that.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> But you got to also ask yourself, are there no pure White Aussie who's also racist, also religiously nut, also genocidal, also think that Christ is the only Lord and that God is the only one without anyone else before him, that we should all convert to their religion?




How many Christian motivated suicide bombers have there been recently, and how many people have they killed ?


----------



## luutzu (30 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> How many Christian motivated suicide bombers have there been recently, and how many people have they killed ?




There's that dude in the US who was being abusive towards two Muslim/African girls, then stab to death two other Americans who tried to stop him from being abusive.

Not sure if he'd consider himself Christian but yea.

Thing is this... we think that terrorists do their killings and murder because Islam told them to. Is it? Allah and Mohammad says to go kill white and christian people? Or did they say something like "defend your country; kill those who invade" etc.

Do we really need a holy book or a God to tell us to do that?

I read the headline's blurp that the Manchester terrorist's sister said he wanted to kill because he went to Libya and saw so many children being killed, seeing death everywhere there. 

Again, that's not justifying his murder. Just a fact that people generally do not like other people kicking down their doors, kill their people and take their resources. 

Some would suck it up, carry on, pick up the pieces and feed family members who's not yet dead. Others will join whoever can give them a gun against their enemy.

We're a bit delusional to think that we can invade countries, take their stuff and they should be civilised and grateful for our liberation, democracy and movies.

Look at it from the Libyan, or the ordinary Iraqi, or any ordinary folks in the Middle East... Do they see Western democracies as secular or do they see it as "Christian" crusaders. So when we flatten their cities, drive their people into refugee camps... 

You know what's strange, from my own family's experiences, there really is no hatred for the western people. Strange but the peasants and savages tend to understand and appreciate that wars are ordered and organised by warlords and big men of destiny... that the people themselves have nothing to do with it beside being collateral damage or forced into battle.

Some of us in the West think that terrorists and dictators somehow represent the entire people and religion. 

Anyway... it's a bit much to hear all these victimised, we're weak but powerful, we're invading countries but we're pacifists and more noble nonsense.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Allah and Mohammad says to go kill white and christian people? Or did they say something like "defend your country; kill those who invade" etc.
> 
> Do we really need a holy book or a God to tell us to do that?
> 
> ...




Sounds a lot like it to me.

Who is invading whom ?

The government in Syria is ruled by Syrians, Iraqis rule Iraq, Afghans rule Afghanistan.

If they ask others for help to repel barbarians like ISIS or the Taliban should we tell them to get stuffed ?


----------



## luutzu (30 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Sounds a lot like it to me.
> 
> Who is invading whom ?
> 
> ...




Ever heard of the phrase "Arab fascade"? Look it up. It's an actual colonial operation model the British Empire used in the Middle East, then the American Empire took over.

What you do is, you get a few Muslim and make him and his family the ruler. Be they the Shah, the Sheikh, or just your typical Colonel or General. Then they do what you want them to do - or else.

Karzai of Afghanistan was its president after the US take out the Taliban yes? They installed him. Guess why he's off retiring somewhere? Because he dare tell Obama and the US that maybe, maybe don't kill so many civilians and invest in some infrastructure in the country beside the military outposts and camps.

He's lucky he didn't get an accident. Got to keep his title and his palace, just no more power - it's transferred to another guy by a different title.

Was ISIS around when we went into Iraqi for WMD, for freedom?

John McCain just said yesterday that Russia and Putin is a greater threat to the US and the world than ISIS. He isn't kidding either - Russia can actually fight back and nuke the place. ISIS can only murder a few people at a time. Something our great leaders seem to be fine with in their calculations.


mmmm... we have no problem telling refugees to get stuffed. So what's the problem with telling warlords the same when "they asked us" to help invade their country and overthrow their government.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> Ever heard of the phrase "Arab fascade"? Look it up. It's an actual colonial operation model the British Empire used in the Middle East, then the American Empire took over.




The past is the past, it's irrelevant to today.


----------



## luutzu (30 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The past is the past, it's irrelevant to today.




It's still happening, right now. 

Colonialism in the ME ain't over 'til the oil does. Even when the oil runs dry, Afghanistan has crap loads of minerals. Great for batteries and whatnot.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's still happening, right now.
> 
> Colonialism in the ME ain't over 'til the oil does. Even when the oil runs dry, Afghanistan has crap loads of minerals. Great for batteries and whatnot.




So if these dudes are worried about "their" countries being invaded, why aren't they out there fighting ISIS, not people who are also fighting ISIS ?


----------



## luutzu (30 May 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So if these dudes are worried about "their" countries being invaded, why aren't they out there fighting ISIS, not people who are also fighting ISIS ?




They are. 

Most of the guys fighting ISIS in Mosul for the past few months are Iraqi soldiers.

If we are to believe Assad, he's also fighting ISIS. If we're to believe the Saudis, they not at all funding ISIS and got them going. Guess who's best buddies with them? 

Anyway, maybe to most Muslims and Arabs, their having any say in war and peace is just as much as any of us have any say to our government. 

We're generally good peaceful people. Just all these wars and imperialism stuff... we have no say because our great leaders knows best and have to make the tough decisions of sending other people's kids to fight and die for it.


----------



## joeno (30 May 2017)

Tagging on to the late discussion about Israel:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-way-ticket-face-indefinite-stay-prison.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/24/israel1

Not so innocent after all. Not that I have anything against Jews and definitely not saying Muslims are better. My view has always been a religious groups of any kind definitely have a proclivity for racism.

Secular states such as some Asian states, Central/North European exhibit a magnitude lower incidence of intolerance, racism and violence than religious states. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

See below chart as well. The country we can consider as the most religiously strict - India and some ME states are also the most racist in the world:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html


----------



## luutzu (30 May 2017)

joeno said:


> Tagging on to the late discussion about Israel:
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-way-ticket-face-indefinite-stay-prison.html
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/24/israel1
> ...




Not sure why they don't see the irony with all these purity business given what happened to their people during WW2.


----------



## noco (1 June 2017)

I agree with Tony Abbott.......What do others think?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/35715915/tony-abbott-says-stop-treating-muslims-with-kid-gloves/#page1


----------



## Tisme (1 June 2017)

noco said:


> I agree with Tony Abbott.......What do others think?
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/35715915/tony-abbott-says-stop-treating-muslims-with-kid-gloves/#page1



It's a shame he lacks so much in so much of his other pursuits. His love for Catholicism over the secularism and his real hate for the working man are major negatives to the traditional Oz culture.


----------



## luutzu (1 June 2017)

noco said:


> I agree with Tony Abbott.......What do others think?
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/35715915/tony-abbott-says-stop-treating-muslims-with-kid-gloves/#page1




Have you seen the Middle East lately noco?


----------



## SirRumpole (2 June 2017)

Tony Abbot said:
			
		

> “We need to ensure that every returning Jihadi can readily be charged and convicted, possibly through the creation of special courts that can hear evidence that may not normally be admissible."





Actually, I don't think we should bother with courts.

There are any number of people being held under the Mental Health Act because they are considered a danger to themselves or others. Surely anyone belonging to or supporting murderers like ISIS could be considered insane and likely to harm themselves or others and could be locked up under the existing provisions of the Mental Health Act untill such time as they are considered no longer a threat to society.


----------



## noco (2 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> It's a shame he lacks so much in so much of his other pursuits. His love for Catholicism over the secularism and his real hate for the working man are major negatives to the traditional Oz culture.



 Thanks Tisme, but do you agree or disagree with Tony Abbott?


----------



## Jorgensen (2 June 2017)

I wish that the media would report and enlighten the public on the difference between Shia and Sunni-in that way we may understand more of what is happening in the Middle East and in the Muslim world.Not lumping them all in together.
The ASIO head says that the extremism is caused by the Sunni fringe-Isis etc backed by the Saudis et al.
It is like saying that all Christians are paedophiles,when we only look at a Catholic rump, or extreme.
If any Australians with ISIS try to return to Australia I have no objections to them being disappeared to a remote uninhabited island.


----------



## noco (2 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> Have you seen the Middle East lately noco?




Luutzu, the link refers  to Australia........In the ME Muslims are fighting Muslims.

I asked, do you agree with Tony Abbott?.......A simple answer ....YES or NO.


----------



## luutzu (2 June 2017)

noco said:


> Luutzu, the link refers  to Australia........In the ME Muslims are fighting Muslims.
> 
> I asked, do you agree with Tony Abbott?.......A simple answer ....YES or NO.




I thought the Muslims in Australia are also Australians. Want to beat up on other Australians do we? OR Muslims aren't really Australians, they're just terrorists and so have no rights.

Yes, Muslims in the Middle East are fighting each other. "We" are just there to observe and make peace. Telling them to calm down, get them to talk to each other and think how great democracy and all that is.


----------



## noco (2 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> I thought the Muslims in Australia are also Australians. Want to beat up on other Australians do we? OR Muslims aren't really Australians, they're just terrorists and so have no rights.
> 
> Yes, Muslims in the Middle East are fighting each other. "We" are just there to observe and make peace. Telling them to calm down, get them to talk to each other and think how great democracy and all that is.




How can Muslims in Australia be true Australians when they refuse to abide by our laws...When they want to set up their own communities and live under Sharia law.

Why can't you give a simple answer instead of diverting in your usual fashion.

I will ask you again.

DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH TONY ABBOTT?........YES or  NO.


----------



## luutzu (2 June 2017)

noco said:


> How can Muslims in Australia be true Australians when they refuse to abide by our laws...When they want to set up their own communities and live under Sharia law.
> 
> Why can't you give a simple answer instead of diverting in your usual fashion.
> 
> ...




NO.

While we're at it, somebody should tell Abbott that the crazy racist card is being played, and won, by Pauline Hanson. So he should move on and pick another card to play for power. Maybe drap a few American flags and bash the Chinese or something.

Anyone who does not live within the law of the land tend to get locked up, fined or otherwise screwed. So of course Muslims are living within the law noco. 

The Australian law does permit them to dress how they like, pray to whoever pleases them. So while egg and bacon is most true blue Aussie's idea of a great breakfast, it's not for everyone.

I guess it's a good thing the Muslims are all evil and all potential terrorists. Otherwise we'd look pretty bad invading their countries and taking their oil and stuff.


----------



## noco (2 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> NO.
> 
> While we're at it, somebody should tell Abbott that the crazy racist card is being played, and won, by Pauline Hanson. So he should move on and pick another card to play for power. Maybe drap a few American flags and bash the Chinese or something.
> 
> ...




Thanks Luutzu.......That confirms you are in with a very small majority.

https://www.votocrat.com/john.smith...icated-from-australia-for-good-agree-disagree


----------



## luutzu (2 June 2017)

noco said:


> Thanks Luutzu.......That confirms you are in with a very small majority.
> 
> https://www.votocrat.com/john.smith...icated-from-australia-for-good-agree-disagree




I didn't know Abbott was a popular PM. I thought people see him as some sort of clown. No?

Heard on the radio today the gov't is looking into permitting sick people to die at home. You know, "among friends and family" instead of being looked after as their doctor ordered at a hospital. That costs too much you see, some old and sick people are just wasted money so fark them, let them go home to have their family take care of the laying dead. Those last month of doctors and nurses costs a pretty penny so why waste it right?

See noco, as Thucydides once observed of the Roman Empire... imperial brutality abroad soon find its way back home ruling over the people. 

"Leaders" who have no problem blowing up Arabs and Muslim savages soon enough shrugs over the death of their own soldiers, soon enough tell their weak and their old to go suck a lemon.


----------



## Jorgensen (3 June 2017)

Can anyone tell me where Sharia Law has been introduced in Australia?
Religious groups,lodges,sporting groups,aboriginals,secret societies and others may well have their own code or laws-but in the end everyone in Australia is subject to the law of the land-Australian laws.
I do understand why people like Abbott behave as they do.


----------



## wayneL (3 June 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> Can anyone tell me where Sharia Law has been introduced in Australia?
> Religious groups,lodges,sporting groups,aboriginals,secret societies and others may well have their own code or laws-but in the end everyone in Australia is subject to the law of the land-Australian laws.
> I do understand why people like Abbott behave as they do.




Naive... ever heard of creeping Sharia?

A very quick goooooogle search yielded this

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...s/news-story/5158234ef2f296c922f02f93726534a7


----------



## Jorgensen (3 June 2017)

wayneL said:


> Naive... ever heard of creeping Sharia?
> No no no...more reds under the beds!When will they cease
> A very quick goooooogle search yielded this
> More reds under the beds!
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...s/news-story/5158234ef2f296c922f02f93726534a7



More reds under the beds!


----------



## wayneL (3 June 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> More reds under the beds!



The reds have come out from under the bed mate, they're just call themselves Greens these days


----------



## Tisme (3 June 2017)

wayneL said:


> The reds have come out from under the bed mate, they're just call themselves Greens these days



 Throw some whiteys in the mix and they would be an Italian pizza box


----------



## dutchie (4 June 2017)

Two Jihadi terrorists are on the run after three are gunned down: Gang of five knifemen kill seven and hurt 20 after mowing down revellers in van and then going on stabbing frenzy at nearby bars

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4569638/Car-ploughs-20-people-London-Bridge.html

Stop all immigration of muslims!!!


----------



## dutchie (4 June 2017)

London Terror: "This is for Allah"


----------



## noco (4 June 2017)

Jorgensen said:


> More reds under the beds!



 And out comes the cracked record again.


----------



## dutchie (4 June 2017)

This is a map of muslim terror attacks in Europe.

Poland has initiated a nationwide ban on Middle East refugees.


----------



## DB008 (5 June 2017)




----------



## DB008 (5 June 2017)




----------



## Tisme (5 June 2017)

noco said:


> Thanks Tisme, but do you agree or disagree with Tony Abbott?





I'm not too sure what I would be agreeing to. If I endorse one aspect of his xenophobia I fear you will truncate that to endorsing every another miserable belief he espouses.

So in this case I tend to be inclined with that one analogue that if we are treating Muslims with kid gloves to any degree, we shouldn't be, if only to save a few goats..


----------



## moXJO (5 June 2017)

DB008 said:


> View attachment 71425



Reap what you sow. People were warning what would happen.
How many billions is it costing them to watch all the potentials? 
Each one will generally have another 8 kids who hate western society.
Europe is a basket case in this regard. 

The horse has already bolted because they were too gutless to have a rational discussion for fear of being branded "bigots".
How much is it costing each nation on such a small % ?


----------



## noco (6 June 2017)

The truth about Waleed Aly.


----------



## dutchie (6 June 2017)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ychiatrist-worried-terror-apologists-ABC.html

'Australia needs to stop worrying about Islamophobia': Muslim psychiatrist says 'moderate' activists downplaying Islam's links to terrorism are fuelling extremism in teenagers


Bangladeshi-born psychiatrist says the ABC is too focused on Islamophobia
 

Tanveer Ahmed says too many Muslim voices downplay Islam-terrorism link
 

The former SBS journalist says the Muslim victim message is very unhelpful 
A Bangladeshi-born psychiatrist says the ABC plays a role in radicalising young Muslim teenagers by over emphasising how they are victims of discrimination.

Tanveer Ahmed, a cultural Muslim who moved to Australia when he was six, says the national broadcaster's obsession with perceived Islamophobia was often counterproductive.

'Often the voices they reach for reinforce that because their first instinct is to quell so-called Islamophobia,' 

'It keeps feeding the message that none of it is their fault, that the West is in fact against them.

'It's inaccurate and doesn't get to the source of the problem. It keeps feeding grievance, it keeps feeding this idea of Muslim grievance so in that respect it's part of the problem.

'Terrorism is, at its heart, a conflation of personal resentments with a political ideology of resentment which Islamism is.'


----------



## Tisme (6 June 2017)

dutchie said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ychiatrist-worried-terror-apologists-ABC.html
> 
> 'Australia needs to stop worrying about Islamophobia': Muslim psychiatrist says 'moderate' activists downplaying Islam's links to terrorism are fuelling extremism in teenagers
> 
> ...





I think we all know that Islam is a flavour of the month totem for people who have no ambition to cultivate themselves and enrich society...it's much easier to use the law of the jungle as excuse to commit atrocious acts than the discomfort of having to abide by the rule of (civilised) law.


----------



## dutchie (7 June 2017)

Finally a politician, other than Trump, sees the light.

PM vows to rip up human rights laws in war on terror as she vows to extend sentences, kick foreign suspects out of UK and crack down on extremists even if they can't be brought before the courts

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...does-face-questions-London-Bridge-killer.html

Hope she is not just talk.

Hope other politicians follow her lead.

Stop all immigration of muslims!!!


----------



## Tisme (7 June 2017)

dutchie said:


> Stop all immigration of muslims!!!





I don't really agree with that, but taking in the strain of people who have only ever known savagery and barbarism, which happens to be endorsed by a religion foisted and inculcated on them from birth does imply a stop signal at the border IMO.

Of course we could always use the same methods Muslims did to increase the flock = become secular OR ELSE! (Russia,China)


----------



## Tisme (7 June 2017)

Here you go:

https://twitter.com/Matt_VanDyke?lang=en


----------



## noco (7 June 2017)

https://www.votocrat.com/susane.lis...lamic-refugees-australia-needs-to-do-the-same


----------



## dutchie (9 June 2017)

The chances of integrating muslims into western culture is zero. No matter how nice and accommadating we are.

The ultimate disgrace: Saudi Arabian player TIES HIS SHOELACE as team mates ignore minute's silence for the Australian victims of the London terror attacks (but they still kneel to pray after a goal)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-player-ties-shoelace-minute-s-silence.html

Disgusting.


----------



## Tisme (10 June 2017)

Hacker spams ISIS twitter account with gay pron

http://www.anonews.co/anon-hacks-twitter/


----------



## basilio (15 June 2017)

Nice to know that following the religious practice of Ramadan and caring for your neighbours is a big deal with Muslims.

__________________________________________________________________

* London tower block fire: Awake for Ramadan meal, young Muslims save residents *

*James Lemon*
1,102 reading now
*Footage shows people inside London building inferno*
"It's like something from the f**king Second World War": Videos obtained by Fairfax Media show residents inside the 24-storey Grenfell Tower as it was engulfed by flames.

Muslim residents of London's Grenfell Tower, who were awake during the night because they were observing Ramadan, helped save lives after a deadly fire tore through the block early on Wednesday, witnesses said.

A local woman told a gathering outside the block that more people would have died if not for the actions of a number of Muslim boys.



She said the boys knocked on doors, yelling in an attempt to alert residents in the absence of fire alarms.

*"If it wasn't for all these young Muslims, young boys round here - coming from mosques ... people would have [died]. A lot more people would have [died]," she said.*

"People want to talk about them when they do wrong, and all this sort of thing, when they're doing bad - but when they're doing good ...

"They were the first people with bags of water, giving to people and helping people - running and telling people."

During the fasting month of Ramadan, Muslims do not eat during daylight, instead staying up late and getting up early to do so.

Another resident told _HuffPost UK_* that young Muslims made the difference for a number of sleeping families, with the blaze breaking out at the west London tower block just after 1.15am.

"Muslim boys saved people's lives. They ran around knocking on people's doors," she said. "Thank God for Ramadan."*

_HuffPost UK_ spoke to Khalid Suleman Ahmed, 20, who moved to the eighth floor of Grenfell Tower not long ago.

He said he had stayed up to eat before daylight fasting began about 4.45am.

"No fire alarms went off and there were no warning. I was playing PlayStation waiting to eat suhur [the meal that begins the fast] then smelt smoke.

"I got up and looked out of my window and saw the seventh floor smoking," he said.

"I woke my auntie up, then got clothes on and started knocking on neighbours' doors. Every house opened except two - I saw the other guy later on so only one family unaccounted for. My next door neighbour was fast asleep.

"I would be up this late on a Friday night possibly but never a random midweek night unless it was Ramadan.

"There are a lot of Muslims living there and people choose up to stay up and wait so it was certainly a factor for me and others. It probably did save lives.

"The whole corridor went black with thick smoke. I didn't think it was serious at all. Me and my auntie thought it was an isolated incident but we'd just evacuate just to be safe.

"When we went out and were taken by the firemen to a safer place then we saw that it still hadn't reached our house - 20 minutes or so later our house was gone.

"The firefighters were very quick. They immediately started work."

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/wor...aming-london-tower-block-20170614-gwrelg.html


----------



## luutzu (15 June 2017)

basilio said:


> Nice to know that following the religious practice of Ramadan and caring for your neighbours is a big deal with Muslims.
> 
> __________________________________________________________________
> 
> ...




It better not turn out later that some Ramadan activity by some Muslim set off the fire. 

Muslims staying up late happen to save life is mehhh... Muslim staying up late and their candle or whatever cause the fire, it's Islam's evil fault.


----------



## basilio (15 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> It better not turn out later that some Ramadan activity by some Muslim set off the fire.
> 
> Muslims staying up late happen to save life is mehhh... Muslim staying up late and their candle or whatever cause the fire, it's Islam's evil fault.




That would be sad... Doesn't even have to be true of course. I suggest that just *merely hinting *at the possibility of such a situation is enough at the moment to set off the mob.
------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously too early to say how the fire was caused yet but some electrical fault seems the most likely culprit. There's plenty of form in the towers in that direction and with over 100 units and refurbishments that wouldn't have addressed core infrastructure issues like power supplies, the risk of dodgy circuitry and dodgy electrical appliances is the most likely prob.

On that note I remember that the huge fire in Melbourne that destroyed the historic Ivanhoe RSL was started by a faulty  ceiling fan.


----------



## luutzu (15 June 2017)

basilio said:


> That would be sad... Doesn't even have to be true of course. I suggest that just *merely hinting *at the possibility of such a situation is enough at the moment to set off the mob.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Obviously too early to say how the fire was caused yet but some electrical fault seems the most likely culprit. There's plenty of form in the towers in that direction and with over 100 units and refurbishments that wouldn't have addressed core infrastructure issues like power supplies, the risk of dodgy circuitry and dodgy electrical appliances is the most likely prob.
> 
> On that note I remember that the huge fire in Melbourne that destroyed the historic Ivanhoe RSL was started by a faulty  ceiling fan.




Just a spark ey.

My in laws had their ceiling lining fixed and a tradie, whom I know and hired, just started joining wires like it doesn't matter what wire goes with what   He'd since contract out a proper electrician for all his wiring.

Speaking of spark... some republican supporter in the US went on a shooting rampage at some politicians charity baseball event.

Just heard that the US Student Loan is around $1.7trillion. Obama tried to help "the students" out by using billions of taxpayers money to pay the lenders and debt collectors for those students too poor to ever pay.

Then there's Paul Ryan wanting to repeal banking regulations "for small and struggling businesses", American consumers... and no doubt for freedom and democracy.


----------



## basilio (19 June 2017)

*Latest terrorist strike in London*
Man hires van and runs down Muslim coming out mosque after prayers.

So what happened next ?


* Imam praised for protecting Finsbury Park suspect from crowd *
Three men who restrained suspect say Mohammed Mahmoud helped calm angry bystanders after van attack near mosque

Finsbury Park attack – latest updates


Mute
Finsbury Park attack: vehicle hits mosque worshippers

*Shares*
2,467

Damien Gayle and Alice Ross

Monday 19 June 2017 21.27 AEST   Last modified on Monday 19 June 2017 22.19 AEST

Three men who say they helped to restrain the suspect in the attack near a north London mosque have praised an imam who urged the crowd not to do him any harm.

After a van ploughed into a group of people in Finsbury Park, members of the public wrestled the suspect to the ground. An imam from the Muslim Welfare House then urged the crowd to remain calm.

“The imam came from the mosque and he said, ‘Listen we are fasting, this is Ramadan, we are not supposed to do these kinds of things so please step back,’” said Mohammed, one of three men who held the suspect down.

“For that reason this guy is still alive today,” added Mohammed, a 29-year-old cafe owner. “This is the only reason. If the imam was not there he wouldn’t be there today.”

The imam was named by the Muslim Welfare House as Mohammed Mahmoud. In a statement Toufik Kacimi, the mosque and welfare centre’s chief executive, praised Mahmoud’s bravery which he said “helped calm the immediate situation after the incident and prevented further injuries and potential loss of life”.

Footage from mobile phones at the scene when the man was being held on the ground captures the voice of a man shouting: “No one touch him – no one! No one!” 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...r-protecting-finsbury-park-suspect-from-crowd


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## moXJO (20 June 2017)

Idiots killing innocent people. Seems this horrific fad of driving into people is catching on with all the mentally deranged.
This guy should be charged under terrorism.


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## qldfrog (20 June 2017)

moXJO said:


> Idiots killing innocent people. Seems this horrific fad of driving into people is catching on with all the mentally deranged.
> This guy should be charged under terrorism.



Hum what? people fighting back? The only surprise is how long it took, which says a lot of the judeo christian culture vs the muslim one in my opinion
How dare he..using the same weapon? What next? An eye for an eye?..but not savage enough to be able to slice throats after.
For info as it seems some of our media did not even mention it (Brisbane times web has not a single line on this), another islamist tried to ram and bomb a convoy of police this morning in Champ Elysees with a car ladden with gas bottles.Was killed on the spot.I have to acknowledge the ABC did release the information.So surprised kudos


----------



## qldfrog (21 June 2017)

so just in case our PC media forget to mention those: this morning:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...rdon-off-central-station-20170620-gwv5pj.html
and yesterday Champ Elysees:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ees-France-police-shopping-palace-latest-news
interesting note in the Paris case: as usual the guy was listed and followed yet had a legal recently renewed guns license which included a kalachnikov (sp?).There was a huge orange smoke cloud so far unexplained when he tried to blow up his car.
But all is good.
Sleep well western world.
In an obviously unrelated news: Roma mayor is begging to end sending sea arrival refugees to her town:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40268210
a quarter a million are expected this year in Italy alone.


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## moXJO (21 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Hum what? people fighting back? The only surprise is how long it took, which says a lot of the judeo christian culture vs the muslim one in my opinion
> How dare he..using the same weapon? What next? An eye for an eye?..but not savage enough to be able to slice throats after.
> For info as it seems some of our media did not even mention it (Brisbane times web has not a single line on this), another islamist tried to ram and bomb a convoy of police this morning in Champ Elysees with a car ladden with gas bottles.Was killed on the spot.I have to acknowledge the ABC did release the information.So surprised kudos




Slowing migration is one thing, but I don't condone killing of innocent people. This isn't fighting back. It's idiots targeting innocent people. 

Ideology should not dismiss someones life as meaningless. Disliking or hating an ideology is one thing. But hating a person because they practice it is wrong on a lot of levels in my eyes.

You should be free to practice whatever religion you want. When it starts infringing on other people's freedoms, or day to day life is when I have a problem.

I'm not surprised it happened, I just think its a waste of life.


----------



## Tisme (21 June 2017)

> , I just think its a waste of life.




I think that started in the cradle for those victims.


----------



## luutzu (21 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> so just in case our PC media forget to mention those: this morning:
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...rdon-off-central-station-20170620-gwv5pj.html
> and yesterday Champ Elysees:
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ees-France-police-shopping-palace-latest-news
> ...





The media forgot to mention a lot of things. They're quite convenient that way.

I have an idea, it sound stupid and all, but... how about we *do not* condone or excuse the killing of anyone, by anyone, from anywhere, on any place?

There might be peace then. Stupid politicians can't then go on stage to dismissively talk about starving people (sanctions), wiping their country off the map (to save civilisation) blah blah blah... we good, they bad.


----------



## luutzu (21 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> I think that started in the cradle for those victims.




what?

dam it man, a bit too far.


----------



## qldfrog (21 June 2017)

moXJO said:


> You should be free to practice whatever religion you want. When it starts infringing on other people's freedoms, or day to day life is when I have a problem.



Fully agree and this is where you quickly discover that islam is incompatible with the above.
Should apply not only to religion


----------



## Tisme (21 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> what?
> 
> dam it man, a bit too far.




Why's that? You saying their miserable existence is by choice?


----------



## qldfrog (23 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Why's that? You saying their miserable existence is by choice?



Not much of a choice when born in a muslim country or in a muslim community I have to agree..


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## SirRumpole (23 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Not much of a choice when born in a muslim country or in a muslim community I have to agree..




If they come here they have a choice to give up their religion, but by that time they are so brainwashed they believe everything their local mullah tells them, reinforced by threats of intimidation and retribution by "The Family" .


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## Tisme (23 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If they come here they have a choice to give up their religion, but by that time they are so brainwashed they believe everything their local mullah tells them, reinforced by threats of intimidation and retribution by "The Family" .





Yes at least the migrant e.g. Roman Catholics who came here and managed to shake off their inculcation only faced a silly excommunication penalty. With Muslims it appears death isn't out of the question.


----------



## luutzu (23 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Why's that? You saying their miserable existence is by choice?




If by miserable existence you're referring to the colonised Muslims, then no, it's not by choice. Does any colony or savages ever have a choice in being butchered and enslaved?

If by miserable existence you mean the backward, superstitious and terror-breeding religion they're born into... yea, maybe they do have a choice to not follow the extremes and literal interpretation. Just like how most followers of other religion can have a choice to not follow their equally barbaric, backward and idiotic religion. 

People goes to their place of worship, minding their own business, walked home when some crazy idiot mowed them down. Yet somehow Islam is at fault? 

I guess it's a good thing the victors get to write their version of history, and common idiots swallow it like the words of the Bible.


----------



## luutzu (23 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If they come here they have a choice to give up their religion, but by that time they are so brainwashed they believe everything their local mullah tells them, reinforced by threats of intimidation and retribution by "The Family" .




When's the last time any Muslim ever come up to you, or anyone you know, and ask you to convert to Islam?

Know how many times Catholics wanted to convert me to their God?

I don't know where you get that image of Muslims from, but sometime people just want to turn up to their Mosques and socialised, pray for good health and maybe even world peace. You know, a world where parents don't have to worry about their daughter walking back from school and have some idiot on a motobike smash her head in because she wear a Muslim scarf. Or one where not every major powers in the world meet on their native homeland to duke it out and see what's left to grab during and after entire cities are flattened.


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## SirRumpole (23 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> When's the last time any Muslim ever come up to you, or anyone you know, and ask you to convert to Islam?




Converting others is not the point. Maintaining their flock by intimidation and threats of apostacy , the punishment for which is death is their way of ensuring that the poor unfortunates who get born into Muslim families stay Muslim so that the tribe increases.


----------



## luutzu (23 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Converting others is not the point. Maintaining their flock by intimidation and threats of apostacy , the punishment for which is death is their way of ensuring that the poor unfortunates who get born into Muslim families stay Muslim so that the tribe increases.




Talk about moving the goal post. So preaching to your faithful to go out there, recruit "lost sheep", that's not the point. Point is if it's Muslim doing it.

Honestly, I don't even think these apostasy rubbish is even true. I assume it's true because there are religious nutjobs out there who take any questioning or abandonment of "their" religion as a personal insult, but to say that Islam is especially evil because that's what it preaches and that's what all its 1.5 billion follower would do... just rubbish.

Just look at that al Hisi, or whatever her name was... a lying social climber playing on Westerner's stereotypes of Muslims. 

Anyway...


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## SirRumpole (23 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> Honestly, I don't even think these apostasy rubbish is even true.




Open your eyes man...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4350328/Hizb-Ut-Tahrir-leader-Ex-Muslims-death.html


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## luutzu (23 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Open your eyes man...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4350328/Hizb-Ut-Tahrir-leader-Ex-Muslims-death.html




Yea, big deal. There are idiot Muslims around, there are Koran bashers. Christians are all saints?

Have you watch any Evangelical preachers on TV in the US? Jerry Falwell etc etc. They make these idiots look like amateurs. 

Again, those Muslims was minding their own business, on their way home from prayers when they got mowed down. And here we are... talking about Muslims and Islam being evil. 

I even read some comments over the internet where people crack jokes about serving them right for always praying on the street. But I guess those racists aren't White, do not have Western Value, and definitely not Christian. Right?


----------



## SirRumpole (23 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea, big deal. There are idiot Muslims around, there are Koran bashers.




Just one idiot ? How many others ? People not so public but who suck on this guys words and think it's their duty to carry out what he says. That's how they eliminate criticism because ordinary Muslims are dead scared of idiots like this.


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## luutzu (23 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Just one idiot ? How many others ? People not so public but who suck on this guys words and think it's their duty to carry out what he says. That's how they eliminate criticism because ordinary Muslims are dead scared of idiots like this.




Pretty sure I used plural. 

Man, to think that Muslims would all listen to stupid, criminal, warmongering stuff... then actually carry it out, or else! That's nuts. There might be some, there are always some... I mean, Trump does have people who actually admire and love him, so does Clinton, so does Obama... why? How? Who the heck knows.

Does White Americans all follow Trump and his examples? Clinton's? The Pope's? Heck, the majority of Christians don't even pay any attention to Jesus' teaching, unless it's convenient with what they wanted to do anyway.

Feed the poor; Let those without sin cast the first stone; Love thy neighbour as thyself; Don't freaking commit genocide by claiming it's me telling you to convert them savages etc. etc.  Meehhhh. He didn't really mean that.


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## SirRumpole (23 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> Man, to think that Muslims would* all*...




Of course not *all* Muslims listen to the loonies, but it only takes a small number to keep people terrified that the harmless guy they meet at the Kebab shop will actually kill them for betraying Islam.


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## luutzu (23 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course not *all* Muslims listen to the loonies, but it only takes a small number to keep people terrified that the harmless guy they meet at the Kebab shop will actually kill them for betraying Islam.




I can't imagine any religious nut would ever eat at a Kebab shop. Those stuff might be Halal certified, but they ain't Halal. And don't ever order chicken kebab. They're either too burnt or too raw.

On a more serious note... Islamic terrorists are real, but they're not all the same. There are some real nutjob psychos among them, some get to that state from being bombed all these years, and some just need a job.

Just because to most of us infidels they're all the same does not mean they are. I mean if we believe what's in the news, ISIS is spreading and popping up all over the world, whereever there's some Muslims doing horrible stuff. We've learnt from the Cold War that not all terrorists and third-world guerrilla fighters are Soviet, commie backed right? That not all Eastern Block uprising are funded or started by the CIA either.

Keep believing these ISIS, Islam stuff and pretty soon, if countries like Vietnam will find itself full of ISIS and Muslims fighters threatening both the US and China that they have to step in and liberate the place, again.


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## Tisme (24 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course not *all* Muslims listen to the loonies, .




That's a leap of faith right there


----------



## Tisme (24 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> . There are some real nutjob psychos among them, some get to that state from being bombed all these years, and some just need a job.
> 
> .




Which very true (psychos) for most societies and eventually those bogeymen are going to have a crack back with extreme prejudice. The difference is that the most dangerous nutjobs are the natural born ones who aren't responding to e.g. "being bombed", but take pleasure in an excuse to hand out punishment for the sake of it..... you know like Nazis and English soccer fans.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Which very true (psychos) for most societies and eventually those bogeymen are going to have a crack back with extreme prejudice. The difference is that the most dangerous nutjobs are the natural born ones who aren't responding to e.g. "being bombed", but take pleasure in an excuse to hand out punishment for the sake of it..... you know like Nazis and English soccer fans.




Yes, and a lot of them seem to be educated and relatively well off, so why they succumb to this pernicious ideology is even more bizarre. They are generally the ones who are smart enough not to want to blow themselves up but build bombs and get delight in others being blown up.


----------



## Tisme (24 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, and a lot of them seem to be educated and relatively well off, so why they succumb to this pernicious ideology is even more bizarre. They are generally the ones who are smart enough not to want to blow themselves up but build bombs and get delight in others being blown up.




Are you saying those ISIS fighters born and raised in Lakemba weren't from a war torn, bomb crater  suburb!!!


----------



## SirRumpole (24 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Are you saying those ISIS fighters born and raised in Lakemba weren't from a war torn, bomb crater  suburb!!!




I haven't been to Lakemba, is that what it's really like ?


----------



## luutzu (24 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, and a lot of them seem to be educated and relatively well off, so why they succumb to this pernicious ideology is even more bizarre. They are generally the ones who are smart enough not to want to blow themselves up but build bombs and get delight in others being blown up.




You describing only the Arab bomb makers or also those higher paid psychos working for the military-industry complex, too?

Ideology, yea, it's only Islam that taught them to play with bombs and kill people. It could not possibly be the fact that they don't like seeing their country being plunder and pillaged, their religion and culture being called evil. 

I guess those who make weapons, sell it for a profit.. .they're better people. They're only motivated by greed, and destruction. The Muslims doing the same are motivated by an ideology of hate. 

Don't worry, I'm not just referring to White and civilised people. There's this lady in the American VNese community who's been receiving all kind of praises and honour from the overseas Viets "leadership". 

Why the honour? Because she's so smart and talented that she heads some US advanced weapons team. 

You should hear her describe how a HellFire missile work in confined spaces. What a freaking nutjob. And oh, she's so passionate about it because of the VN war... because she saw first hand, as a child, the suffering of people being napalmed and having their bits blown up. What better way to honour their suffering than go into weapons research... to create the ultimate peacemaker I suppose.


----------



## luutzu (24 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Which very true (psychos) for most societies and eventually those bogeymen are going to have a crack back with extreme prejudice. The difference is that the most dangerous nutjobs are the natural born ones who aren't responding to e.g. "being bombed", but take pleasure in an excuse to hand out punishment for the sake of it..... you know like Nazis and English soccer fans.




If leaders of countries identified as a shining examples of my civilisation were responsible for the death of countless million innocent "savages", all of whom happen to be on land of immense natural riches just sitting there for the taking... I probably wouldn't be bragging too loudly about how noble and awesome it is.

When's the last time you see me bragging on about my awesome culture? How peaceful and victimised the Indochinese were? Can't say stuff like that with a straight face when you know it too slaughtered and steal land from other "savages".


----------



## SirRumpole (25 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> Ideology, yea, it's only Islam that taught them to play with bombs and kill people. It could not possibly be the fact that they don't like seeing their country being plunder and pillaged, their religion and culture being called evil.




So why aren't they out protesting against Bashar al Assad who is killing his own people, or is that OK with you as long as it's not the US doing it ?

In the meantime you could also have a go at Russia who is helping Assad commit genocide, but no , it's always the West who are the evil ones right ?


----------



## CanOz (25 June 2017)

Actually, I'm curious how many other religions have killed so many of their own people in the name of religion in the modern era? I'm struggling to name one.


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## luutzu (25 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So why aren't they out protesting against Bashar al Assad who is killing his own people, or is that OK with you as long as it's not the US doing it ?
> 
> In the meantime you could also have a go at Russia who is helping Assad commit genocide, but no , it's always the West who are the evil ones right ?




Again, why do you always think any killing is ever "OK" with me? And no, I'm not anti-American. Just anti-imperialism and warmongering. If that mean calling out American cruelty, then put me on that list. 

Apparently, half the Syrian are out there protesting against Assad, with guns and ammo and guidance from the few indispensable nations. 

You think any country or terrorist group fighting in Syria for freedom and democracy and stuff? It's about oil, gas and strategic assets. 

Russia used to have a Naval base in Libya. Now that that's gone they have to "protect" Assad's gov't or else their fleet could/would be blockaded at the Bospherous. That and they do not want LNG pipelines from Saudi Arabia etc. piping energy into Europe from Syria. Capitalism 101, it seem.

Does that mean the killing and wars are "good" by one side, bad on the other? NO. They're both farked. 

If you want to pass judgment on crimes of wars, past it onto the country/people who started it. That's based on principles of war crimes established at the Nuremberg Trial: Those who started the war of aggression are guilty of all crimes and destruction that follows.

And honestly, did Putin ever fire a barrage of Tomahawks, killing who knows how many, to score a political point that he's not Russia's stooge? Look up an interview his eldest son gave, saying that the tomahawks prove daddy don't like Russia.


----------



## luutzu (25 June 2017)

CanOz said:


> Actually, I'm curious how many other religions have killed so many of their own people in the name of religion in the modern era? I'm struggling to name one.




Was the Middle East engulfed in 7 simultaneous wars before Afghanistan and Iraq? ISIS weren't even born then either. But I think we're over there to get rid of ISIS, free the Muslims, rebuild their countries... Why? Because we love them so much that's why. 

And oh, all those Europeans states, kingdoms, empires at wars all those millennium... that's not Christians going at it? WW1, WW2 weren't the only time the Christian Brotherhood almost wipe each other out man.

How about the English civil wars? American civil wars wiping out some 1/4 of White/Christian population?


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## CanOz (26 June 2017)

Lu, READ the question.....

Can you name a religion that has killed so many of its own people in the name of that religion in the modern era? This century?

Islam cannot be considered iherintly evil, in my mind, but you've got to say that clearly its holy scriptures are open to some wide interpretation if killing your own is all right....


----------



## Tisme (26 June 2017)

It seems the Iraqi forces are coming up against Brits and Aussies in ISIS troops. 

Why would a foreigner involve himself another country's sovereign affairs? 

Oh that's right Islam doesn't recognise borders so therefore Muslims don't believe in the idea of countries, logically the USA and any other has free range to take what they want, just like Islam.


----------



## Tisme (26 June 2017)

https://medium.com/insurge-intellig...ses-governments-support-for-isis-d12238698f52

*+ Turkey’s intelligence chief, Hakan Fidan, named as member of terror group linked to al-Qaeda and ISIS*
*+ Turkish intelligence directly supplied military aid to ISIS for years*
*+ Turkish government siphoned military supplies to ISIS through humanitarian relief agency*
*+ ISIS fighters, including al-Baghadi’s deputy, received free medical treatment in Turkey and “protection” from Turkish police*
*+ Head of ISIS in Turkey received “24/7 protection” under the personal order of President Erdogan*
*+ Turkish police investigations into ISIS are being systematically quashed*
*+ ISIS oil is sold with complicity of authorities in Turkey and Kurdish region of northern Iraq*
*+ NATO affirms Turkey’s role as ally in war on ISIS*
A former senior counter-terrorism official in Turkey has blown the whistle on President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s deliberate sponsorship of the Islamic State (ISIS) as a geopolitical tool to expand Turkey’s regional influence and sideline his political opponents at home.


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## SirRumpole (26 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> https://medium.com/insurge-intellig...ses-governments-support-for-isis-d12238698f52
> 
> *+ Turkey’s intelligence chief, Hakan Fidan, named as member of terror group linked to al-Qaeda and ISIS*
> *+ Turkish intelligence directly supplied military aid to ISIS for years*
> ...




Ah well, US bombing raids on Istanbul coming up ?


----------



## qldfrog (26 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Ah well, US bombing raids on Istanbul coming up ?



no but maybe we could start seeing Russia as an ally of civilisation vs our usual "USA friendly" Qatar, SA and Turkey...


----------



## luutzu (26 June 2017)

CanOz said:


> Lu, READ the question.....
> 
> Can you name a religion that has killed so many of its own people in the name of that religion in the modern era? This century?
> 
> Islam cannot be considered iherintly evil, in my mind, but you've got to say that clearly its holy scriptures are open to some wide interpretation if killing your own is all right....




Why this century? So we can ignore the almost 2,000 years of Christian European states killing each other almost non-stop? 

Who lit the Middle East on fire the past 16 years? They started it all by themselves?

Islam is not a single entity. Its 1.5 billion followers are not all united as one. Hence, there are different sects, different groups, various different Muslim countries. And they'd duke it out for the same reason any warlords and states duke it out - money, power, profit, a few statues of themselves in some park and mausoleum.

That and it doesn't help that there are powerful outside interests who profit quite handsomely whether the place is at war or rule by a dictatorship. Democracy is a no, no though.


If you can find an example of evil and barbarity unique to only Islam or Muslims, I'll pay you five bucks. All cultures and people are the same. We all have our moment in the sun where we kick azz, live well and call our victims barbarian savages.


----------



## luutzu (26 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Ah well, US bombing raids on Istanbul coming up ?




No raids. They did tried a coup just last year though.


----------



## luutzu (26 June 2017)

qldfrog said:


> no but maybe we could start seeing Russia as an ally of civilisation vs our usual "USA friendly" Qatar, SA and Turkey...




American politics does not want Russia to be an ally. It seems that unless the Russian leadership is as complying to Western/American interests as Yelsin was, they're still godless commies who's trying to overthrow American democracy 

And Qatar is being pushed out from the circle of friendship too. Why? Because Qatar "fund terrorism" whereas Saudi Arabia obviously does not do such thing.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 June 2017)

Is this the end for ISIS ?

Let's hope so.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-...in-days-as-troops-advance-in-old-city/8653838


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## DB008 (27 June 2017)

Step 1 - Immigate to new country
Step 2 - Settle in
Step 3 - Demand my neighbours change to the sh**hole l came from
Step 4 - Opps.....

​


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## Tisme (28 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> Why this century?




Because media has taken over from jungle drums, the pony express and telegraph.  There is no excuse for ignorance of a nation's interests, intentions and doctrine.

The quantum leaps have been taken, the two mercantile wars I and II are done and dusted and empires dissolved because of them. There is no place for blindfaith in an ubiquitous global community, where plurality is driven by instinct, common sense and maturity, not by degenerate scum who just like sh!tting in the humanity nest because they can.


----------



## basilio (28 June 2017)

DB008 said:


> Step 1 - Immigate to new country
> Step 2 - Settle in
> Step 3 - Demand my neighbours change to the sh**hole l came from
> Step 4 - Opps.....
> ...





Interesting DB008.  Would you care to share some background about that story you posted? Do you want to let it stand as you present it ?


----------



## luutzu (28 June 2017)

Tisme said:


> Because media has taken over from jungle drums, the pony express and telegraph.  There is no excuse for ignorance of a nation's interests, intentions and doctrine.
> 
> The quantum leaps have been taken, the two mercantile wars I and II are done and dusted and empires dissolved because of them. There is no place for blindfaith in an ubiquitous global community, where plurality is driven by instinct, common sense and maturity, not by degenerate scum who just like sh!tting in the humanity nest because they can.




You describing Trump and his Climate Change denying Republican retards or about Imperialism in the Middle East?

Yes, all Christians are brothers. They all love each other, have always been at peace. They all speak the same language too, apparently.

A very wise man once halfheartedly joke that the reason Europeans are so good at genocide was because they've had centuries of practise - on each other.

I mean it starts with that Constantine using God and Jesus' blessings to smash his rival co-Emperor. So brother on brother? Then this and that centuries of wars, Catholics against Protestants and whatever other sects there are under the cross... kinda settled in England when Elizabeth had her half-sister's head chopped off. Blood sister? Christian value at work?  etc. etc. Then there's that short Corsican doing quite a number all over Europe.

I guess it's a good thing for Western Christian civilised Europe to figured they better stop fighting each others, go to "India" and liberate the savages. psstt... it's easy to liberate them because they only have axes, bow and arrows while "we" got God, guns and diseases. 

Honestly, we shouldn't get into debates about superior value this, greater nobility that. History and current event will just fall over laughing their azzes off hearing that.

So while there are many great achievements, lots of great learning and advances achieved by Western civilisation... the same can be said of all other civilisations. 

It's a bit, what's the big word, disingenuous, to ignore all the crap, drum up all the good (and make up a whole bunch more to boot)... There's no need for it. That and you'll get caught out.


----------



## basilio (28 June 2017)

DB 008 introduction of _*"the pig racing farmer from Texas defending the American way of life against the infidel" *_needs some clarification.
Firstly it is a *HUGE* story on the net. Post up the phrase and scores and scores and scores of sites are banging out this story.  Clearly it has to be one of the biggest events to to be happening in Texas in recent times doesn't it ?

*REALLY ?* How about 2006 ? How about a simple misunderstanding by the Texas farmer ? How about the fact that in 2006 and today the willingness to believe and spread hateful Islamophobia stories seems ingrained into our psyche ?
This is the original story from 2006.

* Houston suburb in dispute over mosque plan *
* Some residents object to plan; neighbor threatens to hold pig races *



Advertise





Pat Sullivan  /  AP
Craig Baker poses beside his pigs outside his Katy, Texas, business, on Monday. Baker has threatened to race pigs on the edge of his property on the Muslim holy day, in response to a Katy Islamic Association plan to build a mosque near his property.




updated 12/7/2006 3:24:34 PM ET
KATY, Texas  — A plan to build a mosque in this Houston suburb has triggered a neighborhood dispute, with community members warning the place will become a terrorist hotbed and one man threatening to hold pig races on Fridays just to offend the Muslims. 
..... 
*Dispute started with cattle *
The dispute began when the group asked Baker to remove his cattle from their newly bought land. Baker agreed but mistakenly thought the Muslims also wanted him off the land his family has lived on for more than 100 years. The rumor spread.

Baker, who makes marble and granite fixtures for kitchens and bathrooms and also owns livestock, said he got so mad he put up a sign announcing the pig races.

Baker’s attempt to offend missed its mark, according to Fotouh. Muslims do not hate pigs, he said; they just don’t eat them.

...* Though he now concedes the Muslims are probably not after his land, Baker said he is obligated to go through with the pig races, probably within the next few weeks, because “I would be like a total idiot if I didn’t. I’d be the laughingstock now because I’ve gone too far.”
*
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16095716/...suburb-dispute-over-mosque-plan/#.WVMRpbitHkd

So where are we at in 2017 ? 11 years ago a farmer misunderstood a request for his neighbours to move his cattle off the land they had bought. He gets his knickers in a knot because they are Muslims and decides to hold a pig race on their boundary to "upset" them. He then realises
1) He had actually made a mistake in thinking they were after his land. They wern't
2) He had to go through with the pig race plan just to save face with his red neck neighbours

In 2017 this silly event has been twisted beyond recognition,  wrapped in the flag of righteous  Western indignation, soaked with petrol and flamed across the net. Figure it out folks...


----------



## DB008 (28 June 2017)

My post was about people moving to a country with a totally different ideology/believes, them knowing this before they move, and then asking the host nation to change ways to suit them. The youtube video is just 1 example of this. Sorry if l ruffled your feathers.


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## basilio (28 June 2017)

DB008 said:


> My post was about people moving to a country with a totally different ideology/believes, them knowing this before they move, and then asking the host nation to change ways to suit them. The youtube video is just 1 example of this. Sorry if l ruffled your feathers.




Sorry DB you can't away with that. 
The video was a fraud and misrepresentation of what had happened. The fact that it is reposted endlessly with the same lying message doesn't make it true. 
In my view it just highlights the willingness of people to believe a story because it fits in with what they want to believe.
After reading the original news report do you think the video was an honest portrayal of the situation?


----------



## smallwolf (28 June 2017)

lets twist the argument a little bit (but given the census results what I describe below might be a little far fetched), and ignore the fact that people might be coming here due to persecution...

suppose that you leave Australia (for work reasons) and the country that you are moving to is Muslim based, with Islam as the main religion. however, you are a committed Christian with all that entails. Having moved to the other country do you (a) adopt their religious/belief system or (b) continue to be a committed Christian but respecting their laws. 

If the latter, then... suppose that you find other people with similar beliefs to you and get together once a week. Also, suppose the group is too large for you all to fit into a small room/house. so you go and ask the council if you can use premises for X or Y or Z.

what do you do?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2017)

smallwolf said:


> If the latter, then... suppose that you find other people with similar beliefs to you and get together once a week. Also, suppose the group is too large for you all to fit into a small room/house. so you go and ask the council if you can use premises for X or Y or Z.
> 
> what do you do?




All that happens here without too much problems. X, Y or Z are allowed to buy property and do what they like with it as long as they don't annoy anyone else.

If X, Y or Z creates noise pollution by wailing 5 times a day, then A, B, or C has a right to complain and ask them to shut up.


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## basilio (28 June 2017)

_If X, Y or Z creates noise pollution by wailing 5 times a day, then A, B, or C has a right to complain and ask them to shut up.  Sir Rumpole
_
Quite so.  And does this happen in Australia?


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## SirRumpole (28 June 2017)

basilio said:


> _If X, Y or Z creates noise pollution by wailing 5 times a day, then A, B, or C has a right to complain and ask them to shut up.  Sir Rumpole
> _
> Quite so.  And does this happen in Australia?




I'd imagine so. Religions of all sorts own property in Australia.


----------



## luutzu (28 June 2017)

basilio said:


> Sorry DB you can't away with that.
> The video was a fraud and misrepresentation of what had happened. The fact that it is reposted endlessly with the same lying message doesn't make it true.
> In my view it just highlights the willingness of people to believe a story because it fits in with what they want to believe.
> After reading the original news report do you think the video was an honest portrayal of the situation?




Seems like there are two internet. One to find out objective facts; the other for alternative ones


----------



## luutzu (28 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I'd imagine so. Religions of all sorts own property in Australia.




Where I live, I haven't really heard the Muslim call to prayer all these years. It's a pretty big Mosques and they do hold massive gatherings whenever there's a holy day. But no prayers booming atop any tower. 

They do have traffic controllers and coffee stands for big occasions though. Capitalism with safety, law and order?

I do however hear Church choirs almost once a week. 

These hymns and hallelujahs are quite pleasant. There are worst things you could hear. Though these can't beat the Buddhist's routine... their tap tap and recitation are really catchy and can put you to sleep in five minutes flat.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 June 2017)

I'm imagining you, Luutza in  a gardeners hut aka The Simpson's Willie located between numerous places of worship.


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## basilio (28 June 2017)

Deftly put Luutzu... Lots of different ways of making noises in public places arn't there ?

Grand Pricks races are pretty notorious. I understand that footy crowds can be quite chirpy too. Particularly xxxxes off people who don't follow the  AFL football religion. But they sort of have to get used to it I suppose.

When you think about it there are  a million noises in the city. Just people living, moving, walking, playing, praying.   Live and let live.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2017)

basilio said:


> Grand Pricks races are pretty notorious.




Once a year.



basilio said:


> I understand that footy crowds can be quite chirpy too.




Once a week.


basilio said:


> praying.




Five times a day for some.


----------



## basilio (28 June 2017)

Lets make it clear SirRumpole. I do not believe that there are mosques in Australia with loudspeakers disturbing the local peace 5 times a day with wailings. If you have evidence of this  please produce it. Then we can talk about facts.


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## Tisme (28 June 2017)

basilio said:


> Lets make it clear SirRumpole. I do not believe that there are mosques in Australia with loudspeakers disturbing the local peace 5 times a day with wailings. If you have evidence of this  please produce it. Then we can talk about facts.


----------



## Tisme (28 June 2017)

http://www.thehamtramckreview.com/residents-complain-that-call-to-prayer-is-too-loud/


----------



## Tisme (28 June 2017)

https://islaminaustralia.com/2014/07/26/azaan-from-gallipoli-mosque-auburn-sydney/


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## smallwolf (28 June 2017)

we must have a different opinion of what is noisy and annoying then....

if you are a theological student (in Aust)... there is morning and evening prayer and service in middle of day ... that's 3 times... and before each service the bells are rung. must be noisy. fwiw... people also complain about church bells even after moving into neighborhood near church.

as far as the Islam call to prayer is concerned... Morgan Freeman describes the Muslim Call to Prayer here....



but each to their own I guess.


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## SirRumpole (28 June 2017)

basilio said:


> Lets make it clear SirRumpole. I do not believe that there are mosques in Australia with loudspeakers disturbing the local peace 5 times a day with wailings. If you have evidence of this  please produce it. Then we can talk about facts.




Gee, all you need to do is type "australia mosques noise" and you can come up with : 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...s/news-story/081c0f7682ff0bd0ac2acd83eeb0bc43



> BANYULE Council has received eight complaints about a Heidelberg Heights mosque in less than a year.
> Nearby residents are again up in arms about increased traffic and noise from the Elliot St mosque, which they claim has reached unacceptable levels for a residential area.
> 
> Mat Lumalasi, who lives across the road from the mosque, said the congregation had increased significantly since the mosque extended the premises about 12 months ago.
> ...


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## basilio (28 June 2017)

Is this the event that was being  shown on the video ?  The end of Ramadan with 40,000 Muslims coming together to celebrate their religion? 





*Calls for unity as 40,000 Australian Muslims mark end of Ramadan at Lakemba Mosque *

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...alian-muslims-mark-end-ramadan-lakemba-mosque


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## Value Collector (28 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Gee, all you need to do is type "australia mosques noise" and you can come up with :




Gee, all you need to do is type "australia *Church* noise" and you can come up with :


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e/news-story/20708cb241973a77050e885fa9d127d5


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## SirRumpole (28 June 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Gee, all you need to do is type "australia *Church* noise" and you can come up with :
> 
> 
> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e/news-story/20708cb241973a77050e885fa9d127d5




If your implication is that Christian churches make noise too, as far as I'm concerned if they annoy residents they should be asked to tone it down. They don't do it 5 times a day every day though.


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## Value Collector (28 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If your implication is that Christian churches make noise too, as far as I'm concerned if they annoy residents they should be asked to tone it down. They don't do it 5 times a day every day though.



I don't know how often they do it, however I recently stayed two nights in another city, my hotel was next to a church and on a Wednesday and a Thursday I was woken by church bells at 8am, and they rang at various times throughout the day.

I didn't pay attention to which Brand of christians they were, and it didn't both me so much because I was only there two days.

But I think the Urge to make everyone in ear shot aware of your worship is a religious thing, not limited to Islam.


----------



## Value Collector (28 June 2017)

I don't claim to be that musical myself, But church bells sound annoying like a child bashing away on some old pots.

I mean take a listen to this, forget about any religious symbolism and just listen to the sound, sure a member of the religion might like it, but to those not indoctrinated and those that don't feign respect for such things, this sounds rubbish.


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## SirRumpole (28 June 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I don't claim to be that musical myself, But church bells sound annoying like a child bashing away on some old pots.
> 
> I mean take a listen to this, forget about any religious symbolism and just listen to the sound, sure a member of the religion might like it, but to those not indoctrinated and those that don't feign respect for such things, this sounds rubbish.





I agree, and I don't find anything musical about the "Call to Prayer" either. It sounds like someone wailing in pain.


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## basilio (28 June 2017)

I followed up the link you offered Sir Rumpole on noisy mosques. There are issues but I thought the comments at the end of the story summed up the situation appropriately

_They had also spoken to the mosque's management committee about the issues raised by residents.

"Local laws officers have attended the mosque half a dozen times during the past six months and issued infringement notices where cars have been parked illegally. Local laws officers are continuing to visit the area to ensure cars are parked legally,'' she said.

"Banyule Council is currently arranging a meeting with the management committee of the mosque to discuss resident complaints and work with them to identify longer term, sustainable solutions to the concerns raised.''

*She said issues with noise and parking were common with places of worship, and it was not specific to mosques.*_


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## luutzu (28 June 2017)

Tisme said:


>





That's not the Lakemba Mosque. At least not from the front.


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## luutzu (28 June 2017)

basilio said:


> Deftly put Luutzu... Lots of different ways of making noises in public places arn't there ?
> 
> Grand Pricks races are pretty notorious. I understand that footy crowds can be quite chirpy too. Particularly xxxxes off people who don't follow the  AFL football religion. But they sort of have to get used to it I suppose.
> 
> When you think about it there are  a million noises in the city. Just people living, moving, walking, playing, praying.   Live and let live.




Yea, Muslim footy fans make more noise whenever Canterburry Bulldogs get to the final. Which hasn't been too frequent, judging by the lack of honking and the occasional backyard fireworks each time that happen.


----------



## luutzu (28 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Gee, all you need to do is type "australia mosques noise" and you can come up with :
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/...s/news-story/081c0f7682ff0bd0ac2acd83eeb0bc43




I spent a couple of years in Malaysia as a kid. Trust me, if there's a call to prayer, let alone five times a day, you'll noticed.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2017)

basilio said:


> She said issues with noise and parking were common with places of worship, and it was not specific to mosques.




 I didn't say it was, but Muslims do their bit 5 times a day, every day as opposed to a few times a week for other religions.


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## luutzu (28 June 2017)

Knobby22 said:


> I'm imagining you, Luutza in  a gardeners hut aka The Simpson's Willie located between numerous places of worship.




I do live in a tin shed, so yea 

There's three Churches within a block where I live. Though I don't noticed much activity at the Korean or the other older, smaller one. But then I don't wake up that early or do much walking around to know if they're just empty churches.


----------



## luutzu (28 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I didn't say it was, but Muslims do their bit 5 times a day, every day as opposed to a few times a week for other religions.




I think that if you're a really religious Christian, you can attend Church daily. 

My in-law does. And once or twice a week they volunteer through the Church group. 

Apparently you kind of have to "donate" each time you attend Church. It pays for the rental and electricity for that hour. 

Smart business move. The flock volunteer their time and effort, in return they get to also pay for everything the Church provide. Then whenever they have some big project in mind, like building a bigger Church or something, the flock then give more money, more time and effort. 

Come to think of it, maybe all the volunteer's weekly visit to nursing homes aren't so much about socialising with the elderly, it's a marketing and recruitment campaign. 

Buddhists too... if you pay a higher fee, your loved one's ashes rest at a higher level and be closer to Buddha's statue.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> I think that if you're a really religious Christian, you can attend Church daily.
> 
> My in-law does. And once or twice a week they volunteer through the Church group.
> 
> Apparently you kind of have to "donate" each time you attend Church. It pays for the rental and electricity for that hour.




Fine , how many times a week do they ring the bells and have a full choir singing ?


----------



## smallwolf (28 June 2017)

luutzu,

(off-topic) it sorta does pay for rental... the only money the anglican church gets is via giving or donations. a church build is not different to house, property wise. there is building maintenance and repairs to take care of, electricity bills, insurance, internet and phone bills etc. not all churches are like hillsong or other megachurches you might see on TV. 



> Come to think of it, maybe all the volunteer's weekly visit to nursing homes aren't so much about socialising with the elderly, it's a marketing and recruitment campaign




bit cynical?


----------



## smallwolf (28 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Fine , how many times a week do they ring the bells and have a full choir singing ?




where I live (in Brisbane)... there is one morning service on Wed, a Sat night service, and 2 services on Sunday (at 7am and 9.30am). Choir only sings at the 9.30am service only. Bells at the 7am and 9.30am service on Sun.

At SFC ... there are morning, midday and evening services each day, and bells at each service. But no choir - at least to my knowledge.

the point is... it depends on the location and demographic.


----------



## luutzu (28 June 2017)

smallwolf said:


> luutzu,
> 
> (off-topic) it sorta does pay for rental... the only money the anglican church gets is via giving or donations. a church build is not different to house, property wise. there is building maintenance and repairs to take care of, electricity bills, insurance, internet and phone bills etc. not all churches are like hillsong or other megachurches you might see on TV.
> 
> ...




Yea I suppose the rentals and power bills are understandable. But how much of the donation goes towards that and how much to the Bishop's coffer is hard to tell.

I mean there are some three collection rounds at each mass right? A couple bucks each person adds up to a lot. Power is expensive, but not that expensive. 

Also heard that the first round of donation goes to Rome, the second goes to the Sydney/major city Bishop, the third goes to the local Church community. I don't see much of that being use to house the homeless and feeding the poor. They sure does afford plenty of marble and sandstone buildings though.

As to the volunteer visiting the old folks... I'm sure the volunteer themselves just does it to be good citizens/Christians. And the people they do visit, from what I heard, like the company. To the Church leader though... different objectives.

You know... oh hey, you're about to kick the bucket. Time to join and have your sins cleared.. and those estates, ahem ahem... the Church sure could do with a lot of cash.  Yea, I'm gonna burn in Hell.


----------



## luutzu (28 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Fine , how many times a week do they ring the bells and have a full choir singing ?




There's no bells where I live. Not poshy enough a neighbourhood for bell towers. As to the choir, no idea as I'm an indoor kind of guy so I don't count. But I know that they ramp up the volume and rehearsals around important holy days. 

Anyway, I'm not complaining about the noise or such. My place have doors and windows to shut out stuff if I need to. Point is, as VC said, making noise isn't a Muslim thing. All religion does it.


----------



## smallwolf (28 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> I mean there are some three collection rounds at each mass right? A couple bucks each person adds up to a lot. Power is expensive, but not that expensive.




possibly, but that would depend on the church and/or denomination ... anglican services typically have single offertory between the peace and thanksgiving.

but... you are (parially) correct in that a percentage of income is handed over the diocese.

but... not all parishes have 100s of people in the pews these days. not all parishes can afford a priest. I am also a warden at an anglican church, and have a recent budget in front of me, and income is slightly ahead of the expenses. but we are one of the lucky ones. there are parishes in my city where giving is less than budgeted which then impacts on ability to run the parish.


----------



## luutzu (28 June 2017)

smallwolf said:


> possibly, but that would depend on the church and/or denomination ... anglican services typically have single offertory between the peace and thanksgiving.
> 
> but... you are (parially) correct in that a percentage of income is handed over the diocese.
> 
> but... not all parishes have 100s of people in the pews these days. not all parishes can afford a priest. I am also a warden at an anglican church, and have a recent budget in front of me, and income is slightly ahead of the expenses. but we are one of the lucky ones. there are parishes in my city where giving is less than budgeted which then impacts on ability to run the parish.




A bit awkward now    Getting hot in here or what? 

personally though, I think every charity and religious organisation should be run at break-even. Or even be at a "loss". That's how good work and community services are being contributed to the community rather than the community contributing. I mean, money isn't doing any good sitting in some trust account. 

I'm not saying the local parish and such does that... But heard that the diocese of Sydney has some $1B in a trust account? To do what? Save for a rainy day? There are homeless people everywhere in Sydney. They could use some of that cash. There are small parishes, give some to them so they can help their local community.

I guess it's one of those chicken-egg problem. If the community see what the Church is doing to help the local community and those in need, they might just donate more; or give and otherwise help more. But if they see nothing's given back, and little is given back because there's nothing to give, because the upper echelon want a safety cushion of cash.


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## smallwolf (28 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> I'm not saying the local parish and such does that... But heard that the diocese of Sydney has some $1B in a trust account? To do what? Save for a rainy day? There are homeless people everywhere in Sydney. They could use some of that cash. There are small parishes, give some to them so they can help their local community.




again, depends.... for example, some people donate money on the condition that is NOT used for certain functions and can only be placed in a trust fund and you live off the interest.

but as far a relationship between the community and churches are concerned... this could be improved and recent events and history has not done the church any favors. in some respect, the way the way the church does operate could be improved.


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## luutzu (28 June 2017)

smallwolf said:


> again, depends.... for example, some people donate money on the condition that is NOT used for certain functions and can only be placed in a trust fund and you live off the interest.
> 
> but as far a relationship between the community and churches are concerned... this could be improved and recent events and history has not done the church any favors. in some respect, the way the way the church does operate could be improved.




People donate money on such conditions? I thought they just donate to a charity whose work they like, then let the administrator and people there decide what to do with the fund. A bit much to ask that only the interests be spent. That sounds more like preserving a name for eternity than helping those in need.

But then I shouldn't judge seeing how I'm not in the habit of giving anything 

Yea, the Church can improve a little     Maybe less of the eternity in hell and more of the immediate needs of people. 

Sorry if I offend. We're having a religious debate right? I'm usually quite respectful in places of worship... Not sure why but it seems the right thing to do. Just here we worship money and take cracks at religion and other ethnicities now and then.


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## SirRumpole (28 June 2017)

smallwolf said:


> the way the way the church does operate could be improved.




Yes, they could stop giving money to political parties and spend it on helping the poor instead.


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## smallwolf (28 June 2017)

luutzu said:


> Just here we worship money and take cracks at religion and other ethnicities now and then.




Yeeeesssss! between you and me..... I listen to death metal, warden at an anglican church, invest in shares, and work with computers, and studying for a BTh... none of these sets intersect anywhere really... i used to get lectures from people about the music is listened to, and that computers were the devils tool. 

and I am not offended... as long as you treat my replies with respect 

(and unfortunately (?) the way the anglican church works, is to allow each diocese to have own opinion, views. that does not mean every diocese shares the same views. also unfortunate, is there are people in congregations that are pro Trump and Hansen and anti refugee etc. and there are the groups that share similar views to the troublesome priest....

http://www.documentaryaustralia.com.au/films/1835/the-shadowland


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## luutzu (29 June 2017)

Wait, the movie Zero Dark Thirty was fictional?

Interesting discussion on the raid on Osama. It's not what we've been told by the media, or Hollywood.


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## Value Collector (29 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Fine , how many times a week do they ring the bells and have a full choir singing ?




Apparently this church rings its bells every hour every day, even throughout the night.

People were so annoyed, yet the church refused to stop the ringing, so this guy had to patent an invention that made the bells quieter at night.


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## SirRumpole (29 June 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Apparently this church rings its bells every hour every day, even throughout the night.
> 
> People were so annoyed, yet the church refused to stop the ringing, so this guy had to patent an invention that made the bells quieter at night.





He didn't have to go to that trouble, just sneak in there one night and drop the clanger.


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## Bintang (29 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> He didn't have to go to that trouble, just sneak in there one night and drop the clanger.



Not even that. He only needs to turn himself into a man-made global warming zealot after which he will not be able to hear anything he doesn’t like to listen to.


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## scholesy (29 June 2017)

These kind of debates are going to go on for eternity and go on different tangents with very little educational value. It becomes very easy to keep reading all the shocking and dehumanise people as the "enemy". This is how people start to hold radical views and become extremists. 

I'd suggest people to go to meetups and meet Muslims who want the same thing we all want. This is a great place to start: http://www.mpv-australia.org

Debate and hard questions are welcomed there.


----------



## qldfrog (30 June 2017)

scholesy said:


> meet Muslims who want the same thing we all want



So all is good:
My first serious girlfriend was muslim, I have had very good friends which were muslim (using past as I have not made new muslim friends since moving in Oz but this is not impossible) yet I consider Islam as the current biggest threat to civilisation (above Global Warming  );
If your answer to a world issue is to take a few select examples which suit your opinion, you do not even approach the problem, you can even deny it;
It is mentally very conveniently comfortable, but does not solve anything;
I was at that stage when I was 18, then I started having real life experience and grew up
Denial is never an answer .Sounds a bit harsh but not personal Scholesy.I mean it.


----------



## basilio (16 July 2017)

Clearly the world is turning. The Guardian is now demanding Yassmin Abdel-Magied stay in the country to ensure a sufficient supply of good copy.

* Yassmin must stay in Australia – I'm not done exploiting her social media yet *
It has been almost three months since Anzac day.
Since then, tens of thousands of words have been written about Yassmin Abdel-Magied’s outrageous Facebook post lamenting war in general, on a day predetermined to be about lamenting specific wars. 
We’ve seen her criticised for speaking her mind, for staying quiet, for leaving the country, for staying in the country. She’s been threatened, slandered and attacked on a near daily basis as fodder for a conservative commentariat desperate to represent her as an enemy of the nation.

As one of these commentators, I have written a number of articles about Yassmin, including but not limited to: Why Hasn’t Yassmin Personally Defeated ISIS Yet?; What Yassmin’s Instagram Photo Of A Bowl Of Granola Says About The Degradation Of Modern Australia; and A Definitive List Of Reasons Why I Should Get A Say In How A Young Woman I Don’t Know Lives Her Life.

In writing these pieces, I have slowly come to realise my folly. I’ve seen that, though her very existence riles me up for some reason, Yassmin is incredibly important to the Australian political scene.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...a-im-not-done-exploiting-her-social-media-yet


----------



## wayneL (17 July 2017)

I've got to give the left kudos bas, You guys can justify your apology for just about anything.

To yourselves that is, in your own echo chamber. It doesn't wash with the rest of the community who see straight through the fallacious argument.

Sorry that you don't see Yas for what she is, a younger, female Trump with even less common sense and cultural manners.


----------



## Tisme (17 July 2017)

basilio said:


> Clearly the world is turning. The Guardian is now demanding Yassmin Abdel-Magied stay in the country to ensure a sufficient supply of good copy.
> 
> * Yassmin must stay in Australia – I'm not done exploiting her social media yet *
> It has been almost three months since Anzac day.
> ...





For generations everyone in this country with fame has been cut down to size for being a tall poppy. People like pest Greer thankfully took off and spared us the agony.

How can you single out one person and put her on a pedestal because she should be immune to the great Aussie levelling? Has social engineering gone so far as to defend the indefensible and demand apologies from people who were grossly offended victims?


----------



## luutzu (17 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> For generations everyone in this country with fame has been cut down to size for being a tall poppy. People like pest Greer thankfully took off and spared us the agony.
> 
> How can you single out one person and put her on a pedestal because she should be immune to the great Aussie levelling? Has social engineering gone so far as to defend the indefensible and demand apologies from people who were grossly offended victims?




Tall Poppy was what we used to cut down. Now we worship them and instead cut the poor, the Muslims, the coloured, immigrants, refugees and other in that basket of deplorable.

All those years growing up, I thought only the Viets does that kind of talking down to those on the lower  runk. [It's not racist if you're from that race ]


----------



## luutzu (17 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> So all is good:
> My first serious girlfriend was muslim, I have had very good friends which were muslim (using past as I have not made new muslim friends since moving in Oz but this is not impossible) yet I consider Islam as the current biggest threat to civilisation (above Global Warming  );
> If your answer to a world issue is to take a few select examples which suit your opinion, you do not even approach the problem, you can even deny it;
> It is mentally very conveniently comfortable, but does not solve anything;
> ...




Man, she must have broken your little French heart to pieces.


----------



## Tisme (18 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> I was at that stage when I was 18, then I started having real life experience and grew up
> Denial is never an answer .Sounds a bit harsh but not personal Scholesy.I mean it.




This not a new thing for people who tried to marry interfaith. Eventually lust gives way and releases the latches that have held the doors shut on man made superstition, sky fairies, bogeymen and plain old parental brain washing.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> This not a new thing for people who tried to marry interfaith. Eventually lust gives way and releases the latches that have held the doors shut on man made superstition, sky fairies, bogeymen and plain old parental brain washing.




Lust gives way a lot in religious marriages, that's why the Catholics and Muslims have lots of children.


----------



## Tisme (18 July 2017)

luutzu said:


> Tall Poppy was what we used to cut down. Now we worship them and instead cut the poor, the Muslims, the coloured, immigrants, refugees and other in that basket of deplorable.
> 
> All those years growing up, I thought only the Viets does that kind of talking down to those on the lower  runk. [It's not racist if you're from that race ]





Yeah well we still compare very favourably to those countries who elevated mass murderers like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc who used isolationism, fratricide, patricide and matricide to cleanse the religiously entrenched.

Strange thing about Russia is that it was established by the Christian Church after persuading the various kingdoms to unite into one Holy Roman powerhouse. And now Putin runs the show and is deeply Christian, even has his own personal clergy.

Australia has always been insufferable when it comes to foreign cultures trying a step too far to change our Anglo Christian and aetheistic ways. The POMs, the Yugolslavs, the Italians, the Greeks, the Oirish, etc all had to run the gauntlet to varying degrees based on there willingness to embrace our norms.


----------



## luutzu (18 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> Yeah well we still compare very favourably to those countries who elevated mass murderers like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc who used isolationism, fratricide, patricide and matricide to cleanse the religiously entrenched.
> 
> Strange thing about Russia is that it was established by the Christian Church after persuading the various kingdoms to unite into one Holy Roman powerhouse. And now Putin runs the show and is deeply Christian, even has his own personal clergy.
> 
> Australia has always been insufferable when it comes to foreign cultures trying a step too far to change our Anglo Christian and aetheistic ways. The POMs, the Yugolslavs, the Italians, the Greeks, the Oirish, etc all had to run the gauntlet to varying degrees based on there willingness to embrace our norms.




For sure we're better than those countries. Miles ahead. I mean it's only recently that we started to revert back to seriously taking from the poor but tell them somebody else did it.

USSR, China and Cambodia didn't elevate those a-holes when they were mass-murdering a-holes. They follow and lift them into power because they thought they're one of them. A comrade, if you will.

Once power corrupts those guys, it was kind of too late to stand up against them. I mean, have you seen what they did to people who does absolutely nothing to them?

But that's nothing new to other civilisation and countries though. 

Take the US of A. 

Bill Clinton was "the first black president"... he's cool, smooth talking and play tha sax. He talks of feeling people's pain, having lost his natural father early, being loved by his step father... he know how tough life is, how love from a parent being there for you can make you a governor then a president!

Who would have thought the farker got friends in the private prison business, past a "tough" law that double the prison population, locking mainly black and Latinos for petty crimes, destroying kids and kids' kids lives. 

Then there's Obama. Hope and Change. There are no blue state or red state, there is only the united states. Then bottoms up Flint kids, the water's fine. See, I took a sip from a filtered cup and the lead didn't get to me at all. Kick 10 million families out of their home, letting that "free market" screw them out of all their life's savings while no amount is too big for Wall St and corporate America needing some welfare. 

You'd think a people would learn their lessons. But nope. We got ourselves an "outsider", a multi-billionaire who's just like your typical sleezy, racist, rapie neighbour. Now having his tiny little fingers right next to that red button. 

But Putin is an exceptionally bad guy.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (19 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> Australia has always been insufferable when it comes to foreign cultures trying a step too far to change our Anglo Christian and aetheistic ways. The POMs, the Yugolslavs, the Italians, the Greeks, the Oirish, etc all had to run the gauntlet to varying degrees based on there willingness to embrace our norms.



Just as well too.  "When in Rome, do as the Romanians" doesn't ring true.


----------



## Tisme (19 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Lust gives way a lot in religious marriages, that's why the Catholics and Muslims have lots of children.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2017)

Tisme said:


>





Ah yes, the days before PC took over. Pity we are not allowed to laugh at things like these today.


----------



## Tisme (24 July 2017)

You know how e joked about terrorists dressing up in their women's clothes.....

this is how the men escaped or tried from Mosul:


----------



## qldfrog (24 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> You know how e joked about terrorists dressing up in their women's clothes.....
> 
> this is how the men escaped or tried from Mosul:
> 
> ...



Hum in this day and age, it may not take long for transgender rights activists to jump on these and shame you Tism!!Just a few of these images and derisive posts in a bait facebook page could entertain us for ages..No time for that but experiment would be fun


----------



## Tisme (24 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> Hum in this day and age, it may not take long for transgender rights activists to jump on these and shame you Tism!!Just a few of these images and derisive posts in a bait facebook page could entertain us for ages..No time for that but experiment would be fun




Hmmm that's a thought Mr French.


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2017)

Just had an acquaintance get out of jail. Reckons that whole segments are forced to become muslim. Interesting hearing some of the stories.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 July 2017)

moXJO said:


> Just had an acquaintance get out of jail. Reckons that whole segments are forced to become muslim. Interesting hearing some of the stories.




Religion should be banned in prisons.


----------



## Tisme (24 July 2017)

moXJO said:


> Just had an acquaintance get out of jail. Reckons that whole segments are forced to become muslim. Interesting hearing some of the stories.




Only imbeciles in the courts and parliament would allow this to happen.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-29/rise-of-violent-extremism-in-sydneys-prisons/8660214


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2017)

They segregate some of the wings as muslim only in some prisons,  but in some jails its the whole prison under threat.


----------



## scholesy (25 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> So all is good:
> My first serious girlfriend was muslim, I have had very good friends which were muslim (using past as I have not made new muslim friends since moving in Oz but this is not impossible) yet I consider Islam as the current biggest threat to civilisation (above Global Warming  );
> If your answer to a world issue is to take a few select examples which suit your opinion, you do not even approach the problem, you can even deny it;
> It is mentally very conveniently comfortable, but does not solve anything;
> ...




Not personal, all good. I am not sure how you jumped to the conclusion that I am not approaching the problem. You have obviously not taken the time to visit that link and read and research what that organisation is about.

How are you sure you are not choosing a few select examples from your own experiences, your own media consumption without much historical and political context? Meeting other muslims, being open-minded and debating them respectfully like that platform does is a good start.


----------



## qldfrog (25 July 2017)

scholesy said:


> How are you sure you are not choosing a few select examples from your own experiences



sadly this was not a few select but a significant proportion of the ones I met/lived with;
As opposed to many here, i actually lived (not my choice) among and as a minority.
I see anti muslim sentiments  being either of just pure absence of knowledge, or more worrying of actual lived in experience, put me definitively in the second lot.
And this should not be the case unless there is a real issue with the actual belief,( my point of view) which is very easy to understand once you get a bit of historical background AND actually read the book


----------



## qldfrog (25 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> sadly this was not a few select but a significant proportion of the ones I met/lived with;
> As opposed to many here, i actually lived (not my choice) among and as a minority.
> I see anti muslim sentiments  being either of just pure absence of knowledge, or more worrying of actual lived in experience, put me definitively in the second lot.
> And this should not be the case unless there is a real issue with the actual belief,( my point of view) which is very easy to understand once you get a bit of historical background AND actually read the book



just want to add that experience was based on mostly salafism trend, northern africa, and not the indonesian version, but sadly and thanks to the Saudis and petrol $, that cancer is gaining every day...


----------



## luutzu (25 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> You know how e joked about terrorists dressing up in their women's clothes.....
> 
> this is how the men escaped or tried from Mosul:
> 
> ...




Some estimates put civilian casualties in Mosul at 40,000. Can't verify as they're mostly under the rubbles. I guess that's what you get for being used as human shields against liberators who will not let anything between good against evil. 

On the bright side, Trump's admin is about to sign off on the (second?) liberation of Iran. Just kidding... they're only going to starve (most of) it to death, again.


----------



## DB008 (26 July 2017)

This is Gold 

*Azadeh Namdari: Backlash over conservative Iranian television host*


Iranian state television presenter Azadeh Namdari has faced accusations of hypocrisy on social media after a video emerged showing her drinking beer and not wearing her hijab while on holiday in Switzerland.

Alcoholic drinks are banned in Islam and in Iran, where it is the law for women to wear the headscarf.

Namdari is known in Iran as a proponent of the Islamic dress code.

A photo of her in full hijab was once published in the conservative Iranian newspaper Vatan-e Emruz under the headline: "Thank God, I wear the veil".



*http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-40715595*


----------



## Tisme (26 July 2017)

DB008 said:


> This is Gold
> 
> *Azadeh Namdari: Backlash over conservative Iranian television host*
> 
> ...




You only have to be on Air Asia or Emirates flights to see the transition from robes to tight jeans after a visit to the toilets enroute to their holidays.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> You only have to be on Air Asia or Emirates flights to see the transition from robes to tight jeans after a visit to the toilets enroute to their holidays.




I reckon a high proportion of Muslims don't give a damn about the religion, they just go along with it due to community and family pressures and fear of being killed if they don't.


----------



## Tisme (26 July 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I reckon a high proportion of Muslims don't give a damn about the religion, they just go along with it due to community and family pressures and fear of being killed if they don't.




There is still the comfort of tribal likeness that plays out as strong bonding agent. It's like asking an ancestor of Scotland to deny the emotional ties.

The difference between the Scots and Muslims is of pride and prejudice respectively.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2017)

Tisme said:


> There is still the comfort of tribal likeness that plays out as strong bonding agent. It's like asking an ancestor of Scotland to deny the emotional ties.




Sure, being part of a "gang" is a strong attraction. 

As you say the Scots have their clans out of pride, others have it because of intimidation.


----------



## Tisme (28 July 2017)

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...t/news-story/ec80593236bd78ebdaeedfce2b1d65b6

THE head of the Halal Certification Authority says Australian women need Muslim men to fertilise them to “keep them surrounded by Muslim babies”, declaring that the “white race will be extinct” in 40 years.


----------



## DB008 (28 July 2017)

But that's racist....


----------



## Tisme (29 July 2017)

DB008 said:


> But that's racist....





No he doesn't qualify ... he ain't white skinned for starters


----------



## dutchie (29 July 2017)

*BREAKING NEWS: Major anti-terror raids taking place across Sydney over plot 'to bring down an aircraft using a device' as Prime Minister tells the public not to panic*

yes don't panic people. Your plane may be shot down but "accidents" do happen.

Stop all immigration of muslims!!!


----------



## Tisme (29 July 2017)

This fifth column needs to be expunged


----------



## qldfrog (30 July 2017)

we tend to be complacent and forget
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/29/europe/hamburg-supermarket-stabbing-suspect/index.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/29/europe/hamburg-supermarket-stabbing-suspect/index.html
thanks Allah he was just islamist and had no terror link..so we can sleep well again


----------



## Tisme (30 July 2017)

qldfrog said:


> we tend to be complacent and forget
> http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/29/europe/hamburg-supermarket-stabbing-suspect/index.html
> thanks Allah he was just islamist and had no terror link..so we can sleep well again




Tautology article at its best


----------



## dutchie (30 July 2017)

dutchie said:


> *BREAKING NEWS: Major anti-terror raids taking place across Sydney over plot 'to bring down an aircraft using a device' as Prime Minister tells the public not to panic*
> 
> yes don't panic people. Your plane may be shot down but "accidents" do happen.
> 
> Stop all immigration of muslims!!!




I'm be flying soon and I should not have to put up with that sh#t.

Stop all immigration of muslims!!!


----------



## luutzu (30 July 2017)

dutchie said:


> I'm be flying soon and I should not have to put up with that sh#t.
> 
> Stop all immigration of muslims!!!




I would hate to be a Muslim on a plane nowadays. 

Maybe it's not so bad as the people around me wouldn't be sleeping or making much movements that might cramp my style.


----------



## dutchie (31 July 2017)

dutchie said:


> *BREAKING NEWS: Major anti-terror raids taking place across Sydney over plot 'to bring down an aircraft using a device' as Prime Minister tells the public not to panic*
> 
> yes don't panic people. Your plane may be shot down but "accidents" do happen.
> 
> Stop all immigration of muslims!!!




Bit of a worry that we had to be told about this plot by overseas agency.


----------



## Tisme (31 July 2017)

*Tear Down That Curtain: Update*
Posted by Mark Latham on July 30, 2017
Despite our best efforts, Cumberland Council persist in closing off part of the Auburn pool with a Sharia Law curtain. Despite our push to re-establish freedom for everyone, the facilities are still segregated according to gender.

Being a ratepayer and taxpayer funded facility we naturally assumed Auburn pool would be open to hearing concerned citizens’ views.


We went to the facility to deliver our petition. The staff present prevented us from filming. It left us wondering, what do they have to hide?

This curtain sets a troubling precedent. Changing the rules at Auburn pool according to religious law. Where does it end? Putting curtains up on Bondi Beach?

You can be reassured that we will continue in our campaign to Tear Down That Curtain applying pressure at the local government level, and raising awareness through our Rebel Australia activities.

This is all part of our campaign to make sure that Australia retains its open, fair and freedom-loving ways.


https://www.marklathamsoutsiders.com/tear_down_that_curtain_update


----------



## DB008 (3 August 2017)

*Bondi synagogue ban over terrorism risk leaves Jewish community*
*shocked and furious*
​A LOCAL council has banned the construction of a synagogue in Bondi because it could be a terrorist target, in a shock move that religious leaders say has caved in to Islamic extremism and created a dangerous precedent.

The decision, which has rocked the longstanding Jewish community in the iconic suburb, was upheld in court this week as the nation reeled from the alleged airline terror threat and debate raged over increased security measures at airports and other public places.

The Land and Environment Court backed the decision by Waverley Council to prohibit the construction of the synagogue in Wellington St, Bondi — just a few hundred metres from Australia’s most famous beach — because it was too much of a security risk for users and local residents.

Jewish leaders are shocked the decision appears to suggest they cannot freely practice their religion because they are the target of hate by Islamist extremists — and that the council has used their own risk assessment of the threat posed by IS against it.

The head of the local Jewish community said the council and the court had effectively stifled freedom of religion and rewarded terrorism.

“The decision is unprecedented,” Rabbi Yehoram Ulman told news.com.au.

“Its implications are enormous. It basically implies that no Jewish organisation should be allowed to exist in residential areas. It stands to stifle Jewish existence and activity in Sydney and indeed, by creating a precedent, the whole of Australia, and by extension rewarding terrorism.”


http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw...s/news-story/6ec6252d613583df7797c7cac2b25de4​


----------



## Tisme (3 August 2017)

DB008 said:


> *Bondi synagogue ban over terrorism risk leaves Jewish community*
> *shocked and furious*
> ​A LOCAL council has banned the construction of a synagogue in Bondi because it could be a terrorist target, in a shock move that religious leaders say has caved in to Islamic extremism and created a dangerous precedent.
> 
> ...





I have a feeling our man in the west will explain how this is fair because of some unrelated event that involved a cat, a dog and frankfurter. Then own local Sir will try to talk some sense into him, but this will only evoke comparisons to black goats, donkeys and bucks nights.


----------



## qldfrog (11 August 2017)

A woman wearing a jean in Morocco...
And when these guys get bored
they move to Spain:


----------



## qldfrog (11 August 2017)

unrelated of course to the  http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/838767/Paris-attack-France-soldiers-terror-car


----------



## luutzu (12 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> unrelated of course to the  http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/838767/Paris-attack-France-soldiers-terror-car





You know, there are bad Muslims. 

I think we all should see any killing, by anyone, on anyone, for any reason... as unacceptable. Genuine peace might be achieved that way. 

I mean, "we" might think that "our" military doing the killing is "good"... Just as the Nazi, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Ceasar... ask any psycho and they'll tell you their decision to order mass slaughter is "good" and noble. 

So maybe if we question war and tough talks about nuclear genocide or one through sanction and destruction of vital infrastructures... today's psychotic idiots at the helm would stop using other people's kids to sacrifice at that altar of this and that goodness.


----------



## crackajack (12 August 2017)

Tisme said:


>




go monty


----------



## qldfrog (12 August 2017)

qldfrog said:


> A woman wearing a jean in Morocco...
> And when these guys get bored
> they move to Spain:




Just want to add that the above happened in the last 30days or so, nor rerun  rant


----------



## Tisme (13 August 2017)

http://www.projectrepublictoday.com...r-gangs-boxing-clubs-training-take-germany/?u

I thought Australia was the only place Muslims were persecuted?


----------



## crackajack (13 August 2017)

Just another bs religion like any other. Except these jerks think they are better than god or watever. I really like seeing them blow each up up, to my way of thinking one less to worry about lol


----------



## crackajack (13 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...t/news-story/ec80593236bd78ebdaeedfce2b1d65b6
> 
> THE head of the Halal Certification Authority says Australian women need Muslim men to fertilise them to “keep them surrounded by Muslim babies”, declaring that the “white race will be extinct” in 40 years.



Halal wtf is that some bs excuse to buy their sheit.


----------



## crackajack (13 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.projectrepublictoday.com...r-gangs-boxing-clubs-training-take-germany/?u
> 
> I thought Australia was the only place Muslims were persecuted?



oh bleeding hearts poor old muslims now they are the center of attraction, stop hiding behind you religion because in actuall fact NO ONE IN THIS WORLD GIVES A SH IT ABOUT ANY RELIGION
loser jerks.


----------



## dutchie (19 August 2017)

A terrorist ploughed a van into crowds, killing 13 people and injuring more than a hundred, in Barcelona's Las Ramblas in the afternoon. 

Hours later, police shot dead five attackers wearing fake suicide vests after a second attack in Cambrils, a coastal town south of Barcelona. 

Police shot and wounded a suspect after a stabbing spree in which a man killed two people and wounded six others in the Finnish city of Turku on Friday.

Australia is stupid if it allows any more Muslim immigrants.


----------



## dutchie (19 August 2017)

MALCOLM Turnbull is set to unveil a plan to secure high-rise pedestrian areas from rogue vehicle attacks similar to what occurred in Barcelona.

Malcolm you would be better off stopping Islamic immigrants coming to this country.

Australia and Islam are incompatible.


----------



## dutchie (19 August 2017)

Tisme said:


> http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...t/news-story/ec80593236bd78ebdaeedfce2b1d65b6
> 
> THE head of the Halal Certification Authority says Australian women need Muslim men to fertilise them to “keep them surrounded by Muslim babies”, declaring that the “white race will be extinct” in 40 years.




A recent Oxford University study has shown that men who eat pork are more virile and manly than those that don't.


----------



## bellenuit (11 September 2017)

*In Interview, Top Indonesian Muslim Scholar Says Stop Pretending That Orthodox Islam and Violence Aren't Linked*

*http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4930742/islam-terrorism-islamophobia-violence/?source=dam*


----------



## basilio (11 September 2017)

That was a very interesting story. Well worth reading the full interview rather than stoping at a simplistic headline.

*In Interview, Top Indonesian Muslim Scholar Says Stop Pretending That Orthodox Islam and Violence Aren't Linked*





A woman puts a candle near the Bataclan concert hall where flowers were laid, after a ceremony marking the first anniversary of the Paris terror attacks on November 13, 2016 in Paris, France. Chesnot—Getty Images
Yahya Cholil Staquf, a leading scholar in the world's largest Muslim-majority country, Indonesia, says traditional Islam has a problem

Marco Stahlhut
Sep 8, 2017 10:56 AM EDT
Indonesia, the world’s biggest Muslim-majority country, has a constitution that recognizes other major religions, and practices a syncretic form of Islam that draws on not just the faith’s tenets but local spiritual and cultural traditions. As a result, the nation has long been a voice of, and for, moderation in the Islamic world.

Yet Indonesia is not without its radical elements. Though most are on the fringe, they can add up to a significant number given Indonesia’s 260-million population. In the early 2000s, the country was terrorized by Jemaah Islamiyah (JI), a homegrown extremist organization allied with al-Qaeda. JI’s deadliest attack was the 2002 Bali bombing that killed 202 people. While JI has been neutralized, ISIS has claimed responsibility for recent, smaller terrorist incidents in the country and has inspired some Indonesians to fight in Syria — Indonesians who could pose a threat when they return home. The country has also seen the rise of hate groups that preach intolerance and violence against local religious and ethnic minorities, which include Shia and Ahmadiya Muslims.

Among Indonesia’s most influential Islamic leaders is Yahya Cholil Staquf, 51,advocates a modern, moderate Islam. He is general secretary of the Nahdlatul Ulama, which, with about 50 million members, is the country’s biggest Muslim organization. Yahya. This interview, notable for Yahya’s candor, was first published on Aug. 19 in German in _Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung_. Here are excerpts translated from the original Bahasa Indonesia into English.

http://amp.timeinc.net/time/4930742/islam-terrorism-islamophobia-violence/?source=dam


----------



## bellenuit (11 September 2017)

basilio said:


> That was a very interesting story. Well worth reading the full interview rather than stoping at a simplistic headline.
> 
> *In Interview, Top Indonesian Muslim Scholar Says Stop Pretending That Orthodox Islam and Violence Aren't Linked*
> 
> ...




I agree that the interview is worth reading in its entirety and it vindicates what is said in the title. The few paragraphs you quote are on their own misrepresentative of the interview as they give the impression that Islamic violence is confined to some extremist groups. Reading the whole interview it is obvious that he is saying that violence is part and parcel of Islam because of some of the tenets held. 

The parts you quoted from the article are just the introduction to the interview by the writer and do not include anything at all from what the Muslim scholar said.


----------



## basilio (11 September 2017)

bellenuit said:


> I agree that the interview is worth reading in its entirety and it vindicates what is said in the title. The few paragraphs you quote are on their own misrepresentative of the interview as they give the impression that Islamic violence is confined to some extremist groups. Reading the whole interview it is obvious that he is saying that violence is part and parcel of Islam because of some of the tenets held.
> 
> The parts you quoted from the article are just the introduction to the interview by the writer and do not include anything at all from what the Muslim scholar said.




I agree the full interview should be read - which is what I said.  My posting the introduction was simply that.

He does make a point that 21st Century Islam canot be the fundamentalist ideology that it was in the past. He makes a point that the Muslims and the West need to respond to the fundamental nature of the Saudi government which he sees as dangerous.

Overall I read it as a moderate Muslim leader looking to strengthen a non sectarian relegion against the extremism of some groups.  A lot like established Christan Churches reacting to the hate and extremism of  fringe evangelical groups.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 September 2017)

This is what Sharia law means :-

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-...r-adultery-conviction-in-sharia-court/8894080


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## bellenuit (12 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> This is what Sharia law means :-
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-...r-adultery-conviction-in-sharia-court/8894080




Apart from the barbaric caning, notice that the Sharia definition of adultery didn't even seem to require sexual contact of any sort. Just being in the presence of a man she was not married to in a private place suffices.


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## grah33 (12 September 2017)

From a conversation I had with a muslim they think Islam is good for the human race. You see, if you stone adulterers /homosexuals etc., you discourage everyone else from doing it, which they believe is good for society. I'm guessing it's the same with freedom of speech. If you don't have it, you're going to get rid of speech that is against Islamic values. Again seen as a good thing. 
(note: sometimes i don't correctly express what I mean to say)


----------



## luutzu (12 September 2017)

grah33 said:


> From a conversation I had with a muslim they think Islam is good for the human race. You see, if you stone adulterers /homosexuals etc., you discourage everyone else from doing it, which they believe is good for society. I'm guessing it's the same with freedom of speech. If you don't have it, you're going to get rid of speech that is against Islamic values. Again seen as a good thing.
> (note: sometimes i don't correctly express what I mean to say)




When we define something, anything, we always bring to that definition our own bias and prejudices. 

Such bias are often not conscious. We often do not recognise them to be anything but "the truth", never for a moment thought that it's just our own definition, arrived at from our experience, our readings, our surroundings. 

In short, Lao Tzu says... the Way that can be defined is not the true Way. 

Hence, it is best to call a good when we see it to be a good; an evil when we see it to be evil. Do that rather than use one event over another to define this or that group.

Take Western Civilisation, that greatest civilisation of all time... what defines it? The good bits or the bad bits?


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## wayneL (13 September 2017)

luutzu said:


> When we define something, anything, we always bring to that definition our own bias and prejudices.
> 
> Such bias are often not conscious. We often do not recognise them to be anything but "the truth", never for a moment thought that it's just our own definition, arrived at from our experience, our readings, our surroundings.
> 
> ...



Western society has terminal cancer.  It's called The Left.


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## dutchie (13 September 2017)

wayneL said:


> It's called The Left.



The SOCIALIST Left


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## Tisme (13 September 2017)

dutchie said:


> The SOCIALIST Left




No it's the "New Left", nothing to do with socialism, unions, marxism, Labor, Liberal and certainly nought to do with the "Workers Paradise" Australia was once so proud both sides of the political fence.

It's academics, the bored twits and nuisance people who reject class struggle and have built on the counter culture revolutions of the sixties youth, hijacked that agenda and gone looking for causes to fix regardless of the consequences, because the consequences add to the list of required fixes.


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## wayneL (13 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> No it's the "New Left", nothing to do with socialism, unions, marxism, Labor, Liberal and certainly nought to do with the "Workers Paradise" Australia was once so proud both sides of the political fence.
> 
> It's academics, the bored twits and nuisance people who reject class struggle and have built on the counter culture revolutions of the sixties youth, hijacked that agenda and gone looking for causes to fix regardless of the consequences, because the consequences add to the list of required fixes.



Yes the socialist left was about the means of production,  whether state or privately controlled. This new left is far removed from such quaint economic notions. 

It is a intellectual necrotising tumour, fooling half witted,  half intelligent folk  with its virtue signalling appeal... save the whales,  save climate, save the poofs... subtley causing them to betray there own to be included in the bullying elite,  so they don't get bullied.

The reason most germans feigned Nazi support, not because they hated Jews, but to avoid being in the very dangerous position of being on the outer


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## CanOz (14 September 2017)

Is Buddism inherintly evil?

*Rohingya crisis: Meeting Myanmar's hardline Buddhist monks*


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## SirRumpole (14 September 2017)

CanOz said:


> Is Buddism inherintly evil?
> 
> *Rohingya crisis: Meeting Myanmar's hardline Buddhist monks*




I hope our government doesn't get suckered in to taking any of these trouble makers.


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## CanOz (14 September 2017)

*Dalai Lama on Rohingya Muslims: If Buddha happened, he would protect those brothers and sisters*

I suspect this should all reside in the "religion is crazy' thread....


----------



## watchdog11 (14 September 2017)

Why do Muslims want to come to Australia, knowing that it is not a Muslim country, then demand to change it. How many non-Muslim Australians got to any Muslim country and demand that they stop being Muslim? And what do you think will be the countries response?

If living in a Muslim country is their desire, then why not go THERE? No disrespect, just common logic!


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## SirRumpole (14 September 2017)

watchdog11 said:


> Why do Muslims want to come to Australia, knowing that it is not a Muslim country, then demand to change it. How many non-Muslim Australians got to any Muslim country and demand that they stop being Muslim? And what do you think will be the countries response?
> 
> If living in a Muslim country is their desire, then why not go THERE? No disrespect, just common logic!




Muslim countries don't have a generous welfare system like us.


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## luutzu (14 September 2017)

CanOz said:


> Is Buddism inherintly evil?
> 
> *Rohingya crisis: Meeting Myanmar's hardline Buddhist monks*




Maybe it just show that any religion can be used by those who want to commit genocide, murder and other war crimes. 

That generals, militias and warmongers will grab whatever is cool in their country, use that as justification. So it's for Islam, for Buddhism, for freedom and liberty, democracy and civilisation.


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## luutzu (14 September 2017)

watchdog11 said:


> Why do Muslims want to come to Australia, knowing that it is not a Muslim country, then demand to change it. How many non-Muslim Australians got to any Muslim country and demand that they stop being Muslim? And what do you think will be the countries response?
> 
> If living in a Muslim country is their desire, then why not go THERE? No disrespect, just common logic!




What was Bush Jr's claims when he took that Coalition to the Middle East and liberate it? 

"Nation building", "bringing democracy" blah blah. 

Oh look, those weird Muslims somehow doesn't like their country being blown up, their resources taken, their children dead. All that before they have to change their ways of life as written by the enlightened foreigners on crusades to rid the world... of something.

If only they appreciate the sacrifices they must make. Well, I guess Trump has recently announced that he'll also liberate Afghanistan's mineral resources to help it pay American Corporations the blood and treasure American citizens bear to "liberate" the country of terror and war and explosives.


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## luutzu (14 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Muslim countries don't have a generous welfare system like us.




You do realise that there's about 7 wars right now in the Middle East?

And again... when war breaks out in one country, the people seek refuge in countries closest to them. Like the Syrians closer to Iraq flee to Iraq; those closer the Jordan, or Turkey goes there... then those who want to invade Europe to live off of its welfare take a floatie and play dice with the seas.


Part of being that civilised society is providing welfare to those in need, even if it doesn't seem right, or fair. Being generous and civilised, having that great democracy and Christian value is more than speaking proper English and going to Church every Sunday.


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## watchdog11 (14 September 2017)

Why not read what Mohamed instructed, and did? Don't project one's own feelings, just be objective. Research what percentage of the Koran deals with non-believers (i.e. non-Muslims) and what it tells Muslims to do about them.

Now go to history. Again, just facts: Islam is responsible for the murder of 270million people, including 70million Hindus. This tops every other single cause in the history of man, for killing people.

Now, again objectively, research what Islam has contributed to culture, arts and science. Do not mistake the achievements of pre-Islamic Arabia and Persia. Islam has/is destroying monuments, and is not contributing to humanity. How many world charities to non-Islamic people, are there funded by Islam?

This is NOT saying that there aren't many "nice" Muslim peoples. This thread, as far as I can tell, is about Islam good or evil, not about Muslim human beings good or evil. (There are good and bad people everywhere!). Quoting genocide, murder and war crimes is shocking, but irrelevant to this discussion.


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## SirRumpole (14 September 2017)

luutzu said:


> You do realise that there's about 7 wars right now in the Middle East?




Doesn't that tell you that maybe the Middle easterners aren't as civilised as they could be ?


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## luutzu (14 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Doesn't that tell you that maybe the Middle easterners aren't as civilised as they could be ?




Say what?

I guess it's their fault history's mightiest imperial power, and allies, decided to drop by to train and arm a few good Arabs against the other bad ones. And does it because that's what the good guys do.

As the late American historian, Howard Zinn, advised: read history, learn its true lessons. Those who fail to understand history will be like children being misled.

Did you know that according to Zinn there has never been such thing as a "just war". That politicians and war profiteers lies? Though I guess only "their" politicians lies, not "ours".

Ah well, can't seriously wage endless wars causing deaths to millions, destruction to an entire region... can't do that without a "just cause" and "noble ideals".


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## SirRumpole (14 September 2017)

luutzu said:


> I guess it's their fault history's mightiest imperial power, and allies, decided to drop by to train and arm a few good Arabs against the other bad ones. And does it because that's what the good guys do.




The US also arms Australia and we haven't attacked NZ yet.


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## luutzu (14 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> The US also arms Australia and we haven't attacked NZ yet.




We're on our way to the Philippines. Fighting ISIS, of course. Not potentially helping Uncle Sam overthrow Duterte because he's too close to China, not willing to put his country and people on that table against China.

We've been in Iraq, Afghanistan. I think there's a few sorties over Syria. Not sure if we've been to Libya recently though. So I guess we don't send our blood and treasure to all their wars.


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## Tisme (15 September 2017)

luutzu said:


> Say what?
> 
> I guess it's their fault .




Of course it is. It's an absolute given and it will continue to be their fault so long as they are too lazy to take responsibility instead of flick passing it to a 6th/7th man god via skylord prayers.


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## luutzu (15 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> Of course it is. It's an absolute given and it will continue to be their fault so long as they are too lazy to take responsibility instead of flick passing it to a 6th/7th man god via skylord prayers.




But those that take responsibilities and join "the resistance", they're considered terrorists and get blown up. If they take their family and whatever can fit in a bag and flee, they're considered parasitic welfare chasers. 

I guess the thing to do is stay put and hope they don't look like a terrorist from a drone.


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## SirRumpole (20 September 2017)

Islam is evil if it makes people do things like this.

*Alleged aspiring Melbourne jihadist pleads guilty to brutal murder of wife in front of children*

*http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-...-pleads-guilty-to-wifes-brutal-murder/8963658*


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## Tisme (20 September 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Islam is evil if it makes people do things like this.
> 
> *Alleged aspiring Melbourne jihadist pleads guilty to brutal murder of wife in front of children*
> 
> *http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-...-pleads-guilty-to-wifes-brutal-murder/8963658*




They'll put him jail where he can groom a wider audience.


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## SirRumpole (20 September 2017)

Tisme said:


> They'll put him jail where he can groom a wider audience.




Indeed , big problem. They should have solitary confinement for idiots like this, no release, no Koran, no tv or internet. He will be a hero to some and he'll probably claim provocation and get parole.


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## Tisme (23 October 2017)

Some dumb people in the world



and checkout the comeback by Coulter LOL


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## Tisme (7 February 2018)

Anyone seen the video of the Bankstown Poetry Slam in Parliament House?

I'm guessing we are paying for this?


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## newanimal (7 February 2018)

noticed this thread for a while and finally decided to peak in but I dont have the patience to read through 154 pages. Only read through the first four. The original poster's question is premised of course on the so called "war on terror" which ramped up into full scale  as response to 9/11... and that the official of who is responsible is true. I just want to ask one question here... has anybody ever heard of a "false flag operation"?


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## luutzu (7 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> noticed this thread for a while and finally decided to peak in but I dont have the patience to read through 154 pages. Only read through the first four. The original poster's question is premised of course on the so called "war on terror" which ramped up into full scale  as response to 9/11... and that the official of who is responsible is true. I just want to ask one question here... has anybody ever heard of a "false flag operation"?




911 wasn't a false flag. Those bastards did flew them plane into those buildings.

The action that followed... the war on terror; operation Iraqi Freedom etc. Those are all false flags. 

Maybe not exactly "false flag" as I read from wiki ... Just the usual way of war. Taking people's stuff under the guise of liberating savages, bringing civilisation, democracy, girl power, American candies and chocolates... The good stuff.


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## newanimal (8 February 2018)

I agree with all your statements above, except the first one.
17 years have passed since the event. There has accumulated an avalanche of research, investigation, evidence and testimony by  professional architects, commercial pilots, engineers, ex CIA, ex military, government whistleblowers, etc. to prove that the official story is ludicrous.  How much of this material  have you (or anyone) honestly looked at, and by  what method of reason, logic or critical thinking were you able to conclude  otherwise?


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## Wysiwyg (8 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> 17 years have passed since the event. There has accumulated an avalanche of research, investigation, evidence and testimony by  professional architects, commercial pilots, engineers, ex CIA, ex military, government whistleblowers, etc. to prove that *the official story is ludicrous*.



Do you believe the multiple video footage of the attack is fake?


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## newanimal (8 February 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Do you believe the multiple video footage of the attack is fake?



A good question. That's what people need to do... is to continue asking the right questions. Critical thinking and truth seeking requires suspending "belief", especially concerning many of the 'details' around 9/11 that remain unanswered. 

Here's some eyewitness testimonies that suggest  some interesting avenues to consider: 



And below is an interview with John Lear (son of inventor of the Lear Jet) ex CIA and professional pilot.



Below is an brief excerpt of an interview of the late and very courageous  film maker Aaron Russo         (Trading Places w/Eddie Murphy, Dan Aykroyd) who came to the attention of  a member of the Rockefeller family as a result of his last film "America:From Freedom To Fascism". Not directly related to your question, but essential viewing.



i do hope these links post as 'clickable' links


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## newanimal (8 February 2018)

Though many questions and details surrounding 9/11 remain unanswered, one thing is glaringly certain to professional commercial "Pilots For 9/11 Truth"... it was IMPOSSIBLE  for those pilot trainee flunkies to fly those airliners (alleged commercial) into those buildings. In fact, even qualified pilots could not have.


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## Tisme (8 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> Though many questions and details surrounding 9/11 remain unanswered, one thing is glaringly certain to professional commercial "Pilots For 9/11 Truth"... it was IMPOSSIBLE  for those pilot trainee flunkies to fly those airliners (alleged commercial) into those buildings. In fact, even qualified pilots could not have.





These conspiracy videos are more likely produced with CIA help to convince would be copy cats that it is not worth trying same.


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## Tisme (8 February 2018)

Even pilots can't agree:

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-pilots-for-9-11-truth-wtc-speeds.t2942/


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## newanimal (8 February 2018)

I was surprised to see the "conspiracy" "conspiracy theorist" etc. label take so long.


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## Wysiwyg (8 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> I was surprised to see the "conspiracy" "conspiracy theorist" etc. label take so long.



Been seen before, probably.


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## newanimal (8 February 2018)

and I see you've heeded this mans' advice well


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## basilio (8 February 2018)

In the years after 9/11 I struggled with the range and volume of evidence and assertions that suggested the official story  of the  incidents were not true. In particular I thought the physics of what appeared to have happened was very suss. 

I had let this go because in the end I couldn't decide or accept  that in fact the US government had manufactured such a false flag operation. It was just too troubling.

Having said that on looking at the stories and the people telling them I still find the whole situation surreal. I don't think these people are lying or acting in bad faith. On the face of it it seems impossible for the alleged planes to have flown as fast as they did. The buildings did collapse in unaccountable ways. 

In the end 9/11 was the trigger for the US to invade Iraq (on false pretences) and extend it's influence in the Middle East. It  irrevocably demonised Islam . 

And the US has plenty of form with previous false flag and interventionist operations.

Makes one wonder.


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## PZ99 (8 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> A good question. That's what people need to do... is to continue asking the right questions.



Here's a question for you then. 

How did the buildings come down if it wasn't an aircraft strike?


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## basilio (8 February 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Here's a question for you then.
> 
> How did the buildings come down if it wasn't an aircraft strike?




Possibilities. None are mutually exclusive
1)  A stike by some flying machine (not necessarily a civilian airliner)
2)  Controlled demolition.  The buildings were dropped deliberately


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## SirRumpole (8 February 2018)

basilio said:


> Possibilities. None are mutually exclusive
> 1)  A stike by some flying machine (not necessarily a civilian airliner)
> 2)  Controlled demolition.  The buildings were dropped deliberately




But there is video of planes flying into the buildings. It happened on live TV. Could that be faked ?


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## Tisme (8 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> But there is video of planes flying into the buildings. It happened on live TV. Could that be faked ?





No it can't, but some people are conditioned to think that national might equates to infallibility, so a very few blokes taking down monster buildings just doesn't compute in the bleeding obvious part of their minds.... they trust phantoms


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## PZ99 (8 February 2018)

basilio said:


> Possibilities. None are mutually exclusive
> 1)  A stike by some flying machine (not necessarily a civilian airliner)
> 2)  Controlled demolition.  The buildings were dropped deliberately




Well we can rule out number 2 

Because a demolition is noisy. Really really noisy. I was at lake Burley Griffin some 20 years ago when they demolished a hospital building. Notwithstanding the accidental deaths during the event, the process of bringing down that building - as with any controlled demolition - is to completely strip out the interior, wire up every support beam on several levels, and then a two stage blast process.

I was some 400 meters away. How loud was it? About as loud as a car tyre popping about 10 meters away. When you look at a typical demolition on youtube, you'll often notice the picture wobbles when the blast happens because whoever was holding the camera has just had the bejesus frightened out of them due to the intensity of the noise.

No noise at the WTC apart from jet noise and initial impact. No blasting.

Bringing down a 110 story building would have required at least a four stage blasting process.

That is why the first attack failed in 1993 - not enough bang for your buck.

One other thing. Neither tower fell down onto its own footprint as frequently stated. The south tower buckled at the impact zone and fell at an angle. The North tower didn't collapse in one piece. The spire that didn't fall stayed upright for the best part of 10 seconds before coming down.


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## basilio (8 February 2018)

I find the whole  9/11 topic overwhelming and surreal. Attempting to pick over "evidence" of malpractice or cover ups seems to take one down rabbit holes that lead to warrens.

In that sense I have been interested in queries like "How could the civilian planes fly at 590 mph ?" Why did the third building just collapse without an air strike ?" 

This offered some interesting perspectives.
https://www.gaia.com/lp/content/911-false-flag/


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## basilio (8 February 2018)

The Meta Bunk website offers an excellent range analysis of many conspiracy theory plots.
There are plenty on various aspects of 9/11.

https://www.metabunk.org/


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## PZ99 (8 February 2018)

basilio said:


> I find the whole  9/11 topic overwhelming and surreal. Attempting to pick over "evidence" of malpractice or cover ups seems to take one down rabbit holes that lead to warrens.
> 
> In that sense I have been interested in queries like "How could the civilian planes fly at 590 mph ?" Why did the third building just collapse without an air strike ?"
> 
> ...



Building 7 is one of the favourites for sure. You never see videos of the damaged side during the collapse. Just huge plumes of smoke. But you do see the elevator penthouse disappear first - taking several columns with it, then finally the shell. 20 seconds overall, but still very quiet compared to a demolition. Did you see the video of the dude stuck inside?

Richard Cage's comments crack me up even today. He reckons building 7 wasn't even on fire and the smoke came from building 5 instead - funny stuff


----------



## bellenuit (8 February 2018)

basilio said:


> In the years after 9/11 I struggled with the range and volume of evidence and assertions that suggested the official story  of the  incidents were not true. In particular I thought the physics of what appeared to have happened was very suss.
> 
> I had let this go because in the end I couldn't decide or accept  that in fact the US government had manufactured such a false flag operation. It was just too troubling.
> 
> ...




Basilio, you really surprise me. Although we hold probably very different political views, I cannot understand the questions you have raised above. They have been answered so many times by genuine experts and in such a plausible manner that I cannot see why you would countenance any of the so-called contrary evidence of the conspiracy theorists.

For example, everything regarding the towers falling in both the manner they did and due to the weakening of the steel structure has been shown beyond doubt by "Popular Mechanics" (independent of any government findings) to be not only completely plausible but the most likely outcome when aviation fuel explodes in such a confined space and continues burning without mitigation for a prolonged period. 

The suggestion that the pilots, trained but relatively inexperienced, could not direct the planes into the towers is just laughable. They came in at a very wide angle and had ample time to adjust as they closed in on the towers. According to my son, a pilot, if they couldn't direct the aircraft towards such an easy target in perfect weather conditions, they would be complete incompetents. That is part and parcel of basic flying ability and if they couldn't do that they couldn't do anything. The suggestion in one of the videos from the OP that there were no planes (the fact that there were is proven beyond doubt by Rumpole's video above) but holographs is such utter nonsense. The coordination required between the holographs and the real explosion (and its direction, size, sound etc.) would simply not be within the realms of current capabilities and would have have resulted in many inconsistencies when subsequently scrutinised by the committees and other independent analysts.

I could go on. But even a rudimentary understanding of Occam's razor, would suggest that a plot of this magnitude and requiring thousands of people in its planning and execution could have been pulled  off with such precision and without subsequent exposure by any of those involved is simply nonsense when the simpler and far more rational explanation is what the enquiries concluded and is supported by the evidence of thousands of independent observers. The conspiracy theorists say there are unanswered questions (there are none of significance and those that remain are mainly confined to what transpired on the hijacked planes), but their unanswered question defy rational explanation (What happened to the 4 planes? Their passengers and crew? The flight paths of the hijacked planes tracked and recorded on Fight Tracker, an app developed by an independent software company? The phone calls from some passengers to loved ones? Osama Bin Laden's admission? Intelligence from Germany that something of this nature was afoot by Al Qaeda? One could go on forever with their absurd nonsense that this was all a conspiracy)

Why would they do this with such a huge possibility of failure (remember this was under the presidency of the incompetent George W Bush). So they could invade Iraq? They were able to concoct the issue of WMDs just to do that, so why would they put themselves into such a high risk gamble that would undoubtedly, if exposed, have meant possibly a death sentence for the perpetrators, but at the very least life time jail sentences. And not one dissenter among those involved. Do you think republicans such as John McCain, who I do not agree with politically, but who has proven himself as a man of integrity due to his opposition to some of Trump's more radical policies, would have agreed to this? Even if confined to hard line extreme right wing Republicans (which by definition implies a collection of people at the low end of the IQ scale) how did they manage to persuade so many people with the required expertise to pull this off to come on board. We are literally talking of thousands of people, many with high expertise, when it comes to the scale of the task involved. Where did they find these experts who were willing to kill their fellow citizens and in so doing risk the death penalty? How come none involved have come forward and made a fortune by exposing what has happened (after receiving immunity from prosecution). And how would they have sussed out who would unequivocally support the plan? Do you think that anybody approached to become a participant but declined because they disagreed with the planned mass murder would not only have exposed what they had been asked to do before they event but also after the event, those realising it was not some kind of hoax they were asked to participate in, would not have told their story. We have had 2 Democrat administrations since the Bush era and no one from those administrations saw a need to question the official position, even though it would likely destroy the GOP.

The 9-11 conspiracy theorists are nutters, plain and simple. They self feed off other nutters on the internet. There are no respected experts agreeing with what they are suggesting. When you look at the credentials of their so called experts, you will find the bodies they are supposedly representing are newly concocted since 9-11 and have no credible authority.

Yesterday VC posted a video of the Falcon Heavy take off and journey to space. Watching that video one could see without doubt as the craft left the Earth's orbit that the Earth was a sphere. It wasn't a flat disk as some internet nutters suggest. That the Earth was a sphere was as evidential from that video as the fact that a plane flew into the second tower was from Rumpole's video. Yet look at some of the comments on the Falcon Heavy video (there are probably 20 or more videos of it on YouTube). The flat-earthers are out in force claiming the videos have been doctored to make it look like the Earth is a sphere. The 9-11 conspiracies should be treated with the same contempt as those of the flat-earthers.


----------



## basilio (8 February 2018)

That is a really interesting analysis  Bellenuit. I like to believe I am vary cautious with many assertions made on the net. And I do make a point of  fact checking as far as possible and probably get very cross when others blithly repeat rubbish that is easily  proven a lie.

When one presents the 9/11 in the way you have it seems totally absurd to consider any other option than the one presented.  Occam's Razor principle clearly comes to play.

I watched 9/11 unfold live as it happened. From the hit on the first tower to the second to stories of other planes crashing into the Pentagon. It was surreal at the time.  It felt like an unfolding movie epic but one was realising this was happening in real time and the consequences seemed  terrifyingly unknowable.

I am very aware of the readiness of conspiracy theorists to come up with alternative explanations to what has happened. Frankly I  had no thoughts about possible conspiracy theories until many months after 9/11. By accident I then found the theories that abounded and started to become intrigued by  questions of "Why are there no plane parts ?"  "How did the buildings collapse so neatly" and a hundred others.

As I said previously I found the whole exercise just did my head in and I finally let it go.

On the bigger picture I have absolutely no problem thinking the US government (or others) couldn't undertake secret ops to achieve a political goal. The reality is that the US routinely overthrew unfriendly governments, killed perceived enemies, and ran programs that were just criminal. So the seed of possibility is there. But as you point out the size and scale of what happened on 9/11 beggars belief.

Differentiating between fact, lies, creations or just imagination on the net is more and more challenging. I can remember some exceptional business scams I have seen and initially accepted until time, further research and reality caught up.  And I'm certain these are still in abundance and probably becoming more sophisticated

I don't actually think all the  people who query 9/11 are "nutters".  (  on many other topics probably more so..) That is probably the scary/challenging part for me on this topic. Trying to reconcile what seems to be unreconcilable.

And in no way have I spent the time trying to "understand" all the queries. But I have to say I am piqued by the observations that suggest the planes just couldn't have flow at the speed the appeared to have been measured at.


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## SirRumpole (8 February 2018)

basilio said:


> "How could the civilian planes fly at 590 mph ?"




The cruising speed of a Boeing 767 is 530 mph. With full throttles and in a dive I'm sure it could get to 590.

590 mph at sea level is Mach 0.77. The design cruising speed of a 767 is 0.8 mach, so 590 mph is well within its capability.


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## luutzu (8 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> I agree with all your statements above, except the first one.
> 17 years have passed since the event. There has accumulated an avalanche of research, investigation, evidence and testimony by  professional architects, commercial pilots, engineers, ex CIA, ex military, government whistleblowers, etc. to prove that the official story is ludicrous.  How much of this material  have you (or anyone) honestly looked at, and by  what method of reason, logic or critical thinking were you able to conclude  otherwise?




I saw a doco on how the buildings collapsed some years back. Basically the jet fuel burnt through the fire-resistant coating, then the bolts and steel. The way the Twin Towers was built meant that once the steel structure on a few floors gave way, the top would collapse on down like pancakes. 

I haven't gone beyond that to look at alternative explanation. 

If we go conspiracy theory, I actually agree with The Real News' Paul Jay's version of "leaving the backdoor open".

His thinking was that the Bush Jr. admin wanted war with Iraq and Iran... The US aren't exactly beloved in the Middle East even then. With so many enemies and terrorists always scheming to harm you, all you need to do is look the other way, leave the back door open and they will take care of the rest.

Their attack will be real, it will unite your plebs to permit unlimited war... You don't get your hands dirty, don't get caught and get to do whatever you want. 

I wouldn't put such thing past the likes of Cheney. Maybe he/they don't see the scale of the attack; maybe they just needed a couple of failed attempts... but yea, that, to me, make more sense than getting the CIA involved. That and with so many people and parties involved, the chances of a leak and lifetime imprisonment would be too high.


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## bellenuit (8 February 2018)

basilio said:


> By accident I then found the theories that abounded and started to become intrigued by  questions of "Why are there no plane parts ?"




Just taking that one claim. There were plane parts.

Pentagon...

https://www.quora.com/Why-was-there-no-plane-wreckage-in-9-11-terrorist-attacks-on-the-Pentagon

Near Twin Towers......

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/26/us/new-york-9-11-plane-part/index.html


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## newanimal (9 February 2018)

Debunking Popular Mechanics' 9/11 Lies
Nepotism, bias, shoddy research and agenda-driven politics

*Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | August 10 2006*

Popular Mechanics has re-entered the media circus in an attempt to continue its 9/11 debunking campaign that began in March of last year. A new book claims to expose the myths of the 9/11 truth movement, yet it is Popular Mechanics who have been exposed as promulgating falsehoods while engaging in nepotism, shoddy research and agenda-driven politics.

It comes as no surprise that Popular Mechanics is owned by Hearst Corporation. As fictionalized in Orson Welles' acclaimed film Citizen Kane, William Randolph Hearst wrote the book on cronyism and yellow journalism and Popular Mechanics hasn't bucked that tradition.

The magazine is a cheerleader for the sophistication of advanced weaponry and new technology used by police in areas such as crowd control and 'anti-terror' operation. A hefty chunk of its advertising revenue relies on the military and defense contractors. Since the invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq and in the future Iran all cite 9/11 as a pretext, what motivation does the magazine have to conduct a balanced investigation and risk upsetting its most coveted clientele?

Popular Mechanics' March 2005 front cover story was entitled *'Debunking 9/11 Lies' *and has since become the bellwether reference point for all proponents of the official 9/11 fairytale.

Following the publication of the article and its exaltation by the mainstream media as the final nail in the coffin for 9/11 conspiracy theories, it was revealed that senior researcher on the piece Benjamin Chertoff is the cousin of Michael Chertoff, Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.

This means that Benjamin Chertoff was hired to write an article that would receive nationwide attention, about the veracity of the government's explanation of an event that led directly to the creation of Homeland Security, a body that his own cousin now heads.

This is unparalleled nepotism and completely dissolves the credibility of the article before one has even turned the first page.
*




*

The arguments presented in the article have been widely debunked by the 9/11 truth community as an example of a straw man hatchet job - whereby false arguments are erected, attributed to 9/11 skeptics, and then shot down.

One of the most glaring errors in the Popular Mechanics hit piece appears in the 'Intercepts Not Routine' section where it is claimed that, "In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999."

As Jim Hoffman points out in his *excellent rebuttal*, "This bold assertion flies in the face of a *published report of scramble frequencies* that quotes the same Maj. Douglas Martin that is one of PM's cited experts!"

"From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said."

The article also makes no mention whatsoever of the numerous *war games* scheduled for the morning of 9/11 which confused air defense personnel as to the true nature of the attack as it unfolded, as is documented by the recent release of the *NORAD tapes*.

A section on the collapse of the World Trade Center fails to address firefighters and other individuals who reported numerous explosions before the towers fell, squibs of debris seen shooting out of the towers well below the collapse point, and the fact that the towers fell only slightly slower than absolute free fall.

The article was released before *analysis conducted by BYU physics Professor Steven Jones* discovered traces of thermite in steel samples taken from the World Trade Center.

"Using advanced techniques we're finding out what's in these samples - we're finding iron, sulphur, potassium and manganese - these are characteristic of a variation of thermite which is used to cut through steel very rapidly, it's called thermate," said Professor Jones.

The article regurgitates pancake and truss theories yet fails to acknowledge the comments of WTC construction manager Frank DeMartini (below) who before 9/11 stated that the buildings were designed to take multiple airliner impacts and not collapse.



The article also completely fails to answer why pools of molten yellow metal were found underneath both towers and Building 7 subsequent to the collapses.

The classic crimp implosion of Building 7, which was not hit by a plane, is glossed over as the piece again tries to mislead its readers into believing that over engineered steel buildings collapse from fire damage - an event unprecedented in world history aside from three examples in one single day.


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## newanimal (9 February 2018)

this interview with elite Dutch banker Ron Bernhard who , though not addressing 9/11 directly, exposes  
how the world really works at the top. Which explains how such things as false flags i.e. 9/11, are not only possible, but are the m.o. of the day.


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## Tisme (9 February 2018)

The owner wanted to redevelop apparently:


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## basilio (9 February 2018)

That's interesting Tisme.

Your first post after New Animal raises the question of whether 9/11 was some sort of false flag operation was to dismiss the videos as "probably CIA supported fabrications" to dissuade other would be terrorists.

12 hours later your highlighting a clip which puts Mossad and Zionists as the brains and muscle behind 9/11 and the architects of a world wide plot to impose a New World Order. That is certainly a very stinky cat on the table.


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## newanimal (9 February 2018)

When investigating a crime scene, strict procedures need to be carried out. The crime scene needs to preserved to gather evidence. There are a lot of science and physics aspects to some crimes. How much more so regarding the crime of the century 9/11. Yet it was arranged to have what remained of the rubble, steel, etc. rushed off in a hurry. Why is that? The remaining steel was hurried away to China when it was not cost effective at that time. Many aspects of this crime regarding science and physics remain unanswered. But there are other important aspect to a crime to investigate as well. 
Motive and Precedence. Who benefits?
Did Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria benefit? 
Hardly, they got the crap bombed out of em. How many innocent men, women and children have been murdered as result? How many orphaned?
Since that door has been cracked open with above posts, the "stinky cat" as Basilio puts it, anyone want to take a stab?
Motive?
Precedence (a pattern of similar false flags  historically)?
Who Benefits?


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## SirRumpole (9 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> Who benefits?




I'd tend to go with Bellenuit's post regarding Occam's Razor. There are so many what if's in the conspiracy case versus the pretty straightforward terrorist explanation that one has to go for the simplest explanation. If there were conspirators its highly likely that the truth would have come out somehow given that a lot of people would have had to be in on  the act.


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## basilio (9 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I'd tend to go with Bellenuit's post regarding Occam's Razor. There are so many what if's in the conspiracy case versus the pretty straightforward terrorist explanation that one has to go for the simplest explanation. If there were conspirators its highly likely that the truth would have come out somehow given that a lot of people would have had to be in on  the act.





I think Luutzu offered an idea that has merit.  Basically "leaving the back door open" to allow a terrorist attack and then take full advantage of the outcome.
But really we can hypothesise  forever on what ifs. I don't believe the public has the full story on who, how why ect.  re 9/11. I suppose what we do know is that after 9/11 the US started wars in Afganistan and Iraq that have  destroyed nations and imposed US economic and political influence in the Middle East. It has also been the opportunity to extend US government control over its population through the Homeland Security Act and associated measures.


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## newanimal (9 February 2018)

"I'd tend to go with Bellenuit's post regarding Occam's Razor"

Occams razor does not apply here. Occams razor is a 'problem solving principle'. 
This is not "problem solving". This is "CRIME solving"
And a pretty big one at that, where 3000 people were murdered. And you'd better be damn sure you get the CORRECT answer, not the 'simplest' most convenient answer, leave no stone unturned, before you decide to go murder hundreds of thousands more innocent people in a far away land.


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## SirRumpole (9 February 2018)

basilio said:


> I think Luutzu offered an idea that has merit. Basically "leaving the back door open" to allow a terrorist attack and then take full advantage of the outcome.




Yes that is more plausible but almost impossible to prove unless someone fesses up. 

However, the First Gulf war in defence of Kuwait may well have been the seed for 911, not that I don't think it was unwarranted, but it was seen an intrusion by the West into Middle East affairs and therefore created a lot of angst in certain people.

Nothing ever happens without consequences.


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## SirRumpole (9 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> Occams razor does not apply here. Occams razor is a 'problem solving principle'.




No, the problem is whether it was a conspiracy or a terrorist attack. Occam's Razor holds.


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## newanimal (9 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> No, the problem is whether it was a conspiracy or a terrorist attack. Occam's Razor holds.



Obviously it was a conspiracy, the question is who did the conspiring. 
This took a great deal of organization and planning ahead of time to say the least. This was no random suicide bombing.


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## newanimal (9 February 2018)

So... "Occams razor"  would be a conspirators best friend. Since the 'patsy' or 'patsies' the conspirators have set up would simplest and unfettered conclusion to arrive to. Why consider all those other anomalies  and discrepancies. It just complicates thing too much.


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## basilio (9 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> "I'd tend to go with Bellenuit's post regarding Occam's Razor"
> 
> Occams razor does not apply here. Occams razor is a 'problem solving principle'.
> This is not "problem solving". This is "CRIME solving"
> And a pretty big one at that, where 3000 people were murdered. And you'd better be damn sure you get the CORRECT answer, not the 'simplest' most convenient answer, leave no stone unturned, before you decide to go murder hundreds of thousands more innocent people in a far away land.




Good points here. I think the principle of making sure one gets the correct answer vs the simplest, most convienient one is telling. I'm not convinced this was the case in 9/11. 

There are plenty of examples where political  or social expediency means that people are fitted up for crimes. In many cases there is *often just the need to be seen as finding a perp. *And almost anyone will do if one can make the charge stick and not get blowback.

For what it's worth there is a 9/11 Myths Wiki that attempts to dissect many of the claims made around the incident.

T_he web is full of sites covering various conspiracy theories. Many seem well-researched, and appear to have plenty of detailed documentation to prove their claims. But are they really true? 

We don’t know, but one good way to start is by checking a few claims for yourself. We tried that with a number of 9/11 sites, with surprising results. Many of the “facts” we read were distorted, or simply wrong. Quotes were routinely taken out of context. Relevant information was often ignored. And much of this could be discovered with a minimum of online research. 

Whatever you believe about 9/11, the spreading of false claims helps no-one, and we’d like to play a small part in revealing some of them. We’re not about debunking entire conspiracies, then, but will use this site to zoom in on what we think are the more dubious stories, revealing the misquotes, the distortions, the inaccuracies that are so common online. 

But does this make us an authority? No. If we’ve an overall message here, it’s check things for yourself. Don’t trust a site just because it’s telling you what you want to believe. Don’t believe us without evaluating our arguments and checking the references we provide, either (we’re as likely to make mistakes as anyone else). Look into the claims yourself, discover both sides of the argument, and make your own mind up. The truth deserves nothing less.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=Main_Page_


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## Tisme (9 February 2018)

basilio said:


> That's interesting Tisme.
> 
> Your first post after New Animal raises the question of whether 9/11 was some sort of false flag operation was to dismiss the videos as "probably CIA supported fabrications" to dissuade other would be terrorists.
> 
> 12 hours later your highlighting a clip which puts Mossad and Zionists as the brains and muscle behind 9/11 and the architects of a world wide plot to impose a New World Order. That is certainly a very stinky cat on the table.




Yes I am happy to present contrary views to my own, if only to highlight the stupidity of trying to make hindsight science out of serendipity.


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## bellenuit (9 February 2018)

One can only despair when dealing with the conspiracy theorists. Huge doubts are cast on the possibility of certain actions having occurred (a partially trained pilot flying into a tower, planes going at certain speeds, etc. etc.), when rudimentary research shows that those are entirely possible and not even remotely out of the ordinary. On the other hand credence is given to the most insane alternative possibilities such as the planes were holographs and the tower explosions synchronised with the holograph. Just looking at the latter. Watch any video of controlled demolitions and you will see just a flash at the source of each charge. You do not see a huge burst of flame engulfing several floors of the building. What you saw in Rumpole's video was about 7,000 gallons of aviation fuel exploding (assuming the 767-200 was just under half full). Look at videos of fuel tankers exploding and that is exactly what those explosions look like.

So if the plane sightings were just holographs, how did they get about 7,000 gallons of fuel (aviation or other explosive types) to about the 80th floor of the South Tower. Did 7 people each make 1,000 trips carrying a gallon can of fuel each to the 80th floor? The capacity of a fuel tanker is about 8,000 gallons. So was there a fuel tanker in the basement or on the street below with a constant stream of 'plotters' loading up  gasoline cans and bringing them to the 80th floor? And presumably they didn't just pour it on the ground of the 80th floor as that would be obvious to everyone and would simply seep down through the building. So they would have left them in the gasoline cans so that when they had finished their task there were 7,000 full gasoline cans in various parts of 80th floor. And all this was done in a building with extremely high security (remember the Twin Towers had been attacked previously) and being a financial centre with traders working on all world markets would have plenty of people in the building at all times.

This is the type of nonsense that the conspiracy theorists come up with to justify their theories and it seems many people just gullibly swallow their versions without a shred of skepticism, while at the same time nod their heads in agreement with suggestions that partly trained pilots couldn't fly a plane into a building protruding 70 or more floors above the adjacent south Manhattan skyline in perfect weather conditions. Remember the terrorists didn't have to take off as that was already done by the pilots, they just needed to guide the plane once hijacked and they had ample training for that. The training schools in Florida confirmed that they seemed only interested in learning the techniques of flying the plane once airborne, not in take-off or landing procedures. 

This is only one of their nonsense concoctions. Everyone of their alternative theories has as much holes in them as the holograph theory above. 

I certainly don't intend to get further into this debate as I know the types of minds I am dealing. They live in a different reality and are beyond persuasion. There are the type of people that Alex Jones feeds with his conspiracies and they just lap them up.


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## luutzu (9 February 2018)

basilio said:


> I think Luutzu offered an idea that has merit.  Basically "leaving the back door open" to allow a terrorist attack and then take full advantage of the outcome.
> But really we can hypothesise  forever on what ifs. I don't believe the public has the full story on who, how why ect.  re 9/11. I suppose what we do know is that after 9/11 the US started wars in Afganistan and Iraq that have  destroyed nations and imposed US economic and political influence in the Middle East. It has also been the opportunity to extend US government control over its population through the Homeland Security Act and associated measures.




Was watching a Howard Zinn's lecture a few days ago on nationalism, patriotism, national security and the need to study history etc. 

He was referring to the points you raised there. That government lies, do not trust its people, are afraid of them and in carrying out "the national interest" i.e. war all over the place... without lying to the people or making them afraid, the people just wouldn't permit it.

Hence the need to study history so that we the people don't get suckered, let our fear be manipulated so that our treasuries are spent on weapons programs, on wars that destroy other people and their country.

Quite an amazing man that Howard Zinn.

There's an example he gave about Reagan scaring the American people into war with South America. That the American military have to stop the Nicaraguan militias or else they would march to Texas in a day.

Zinn joked that... Texas? Why the heck would the Nicaraguan want to go to Texas? And then what? Take a bus to Washington? 

How we're taught to fear Islam and Muslims. Not so much fear terrorism because that's real enough. But be afraid or suspicious of any Muslim.


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## newanimal (10 February 2018)

Yes FEAR and TERROR is a very effective tool of manipulating the masses into supporting "preemptive" war agenda. Remember Bush jrs' "MUSHROOM CLOUD!!"? "Weapons of Mass Destruction" this list goes on. And so do false flags of lessor scale than 9/11. But they needed a big one to get us on board to pursue their ambitious agenda laid out in the document the neocons produced in 1992:

https://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_louise_010603_pnac.html

BTW, PNAC is a document... their document... not a "theory"


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## newanimal (10 February 2018)

And as Ronald Bernard, the Dutch banker who worked his way to the top of the financial elite circles, discovered, manipulating  populations perceptions and emotions is very easy to do. Just consider some of the closed minded responses in this thread. Did anyone actually view and listen through that clip? How about Hollywood insider filmaker Aaron Russo who met with one of the Rockefellers eleven months before 9/11? Just a few "nut cases" or CIA agents I suppose. Dismiss it all out of hand with out any further investigation. Too uncomfortable to deal with the 'cognitive dissonance' that arises when something challenges the 'world view' one has become accustomed to believe in for so long.
I'm not necessarily a fan of Alex Jones for various reasons, but much of his info is spot on and simply fact. If a guy in China tells me the sky is blue, or a guy in France the same thing, it doesn't matter from where or from whom the info came. The sky is blue.

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance" --Albert Einstein


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## newanimal (10 February 2018)

and what does a former head of state of Italy know... surely another "nut job". 
and what the hell is Project Gladio? huh??


*9/11: Ex. Italian President – Mossad And CIA Did 9/11 !*



Former Italian President Francesco Cossiga


*“The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the ‘devil’ only in order to drive the ‘TV watcher’ to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US and the lobbyists for the US war on terrorism are only interested in making money.”*
*Major Pierre-Henri Bunel – Al Qaeda, The Database*
–
9/11 as an inside job. It was planned by the Illuminist shadow government and executed by CIA and Mossad ! The governments of the world know this but play along. They play along because if they don’t, Al CIAda will launch terror strikes against their countries. And American forces will be at their door steps to ‘liberate them from terrorists’! With the full control of the western MSM, the Illuminists wield the enormous powers of brain washing! And who can stand against the military might of the sole super power?
–
*Italy Ex-President – CIA And Mossad Ran 9-11 *
By the Staff of American Free Press
Former Italian President Francesco Cossiga, who revealed the existence of Operation Gladio, has told Italy’s oldest and most widely read newspaper that the 9-11 terrorist attacks were run by the CIA and Mossad, and that this was common knowledge among global intelligence agencies. 
–
In what translates awkwardly into English, Cossiga told the newspaper Corriere della Sera:”All the [intelligence services] of America and Europe know well that the disastrous attack has been planned and realized from the Mossad, with the aid of the Zionist world in order to put under accusation the Arabic countries and in order to induce the western powers to take part in Iraq [and] Afghanistan.”
–
Cossiga was elected president of the Italian Senate in July 1983 before winning a landslide election to become president of the country in 1985, and he remained until 1992. Cossiga’s tendency to be outspoken upset the Italian political establishment, and he was forced to resign after revealing the existence of, and his part in setting up, Operation Gladio. This was a rogue intelligence network under NATO auspices that carried out bombings across Europe in the 1960s, 1970s and ’80s. 
–
Gladio’s specialty was to carry out what they termed “false flag” operations-terror attacks that were blamed on their domestic and geopolitical opposition. In March 2001, Gladio agent Vincenzo Vinciguerra stated, in sworn testimony, “You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security.” 
–
Cossiga first expressed his doubts about 9-11 in 2001, and is quoted by 9-11 researcher Webster Tarpley saying “The mastermind of the attack must have been a sophisticated mind, provided with ample means not only to recruit fanatic kamikazes, but also highly specialized personnel. I add one thing: it could not be accomplished without infiltrations in the radar and flight security personnel.” 
–
Coming from a widely respected former head of state, Cossiga’s assertion that the 9-11 attacks were an inside job and that this is common knowledge among global intelligence agencies is illuminating. It is one more eye-opening confirmation that has not been mentioned by America’s propaganda machine in print or on TV. Nevertheless, because of his experience and status in the world, Cossiga cannot be discounted as a crackpot. 
–


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## SirRumpole (10 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> Nevertheless, because of his experience and status in the world, Cossiga cannot be discounted as a crackpot.




Cossiga suffered from bi-polar disorder and depression, so his statements should be taken with a few grains of salt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Cossiga


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## basilio (10 February 2018)

*10 Nefarious Conspiracies Proven True*
FlameHorse May 2, 2013


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Conspiracy theorists believe in a lot of crackpot ideas and deserve their reputation as an amusing distraction, but once in awhile, they get one right, and just one is all it would have ever taken to keep the rest of the theories going forever. Below are ten American conspiracies that are no longer theories, but proven true, no matter how absurdly unbelievable you may find them.


2
Domestic Terrorism






Theory: The U. S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Plan to Terrorize the U. S. Populace

The Joint Chiefs are the 5 generals and admirals in charge of the 5 branches of the U. S military. In 1962, those men were George Decker (Army), David Shoup (Marines), Georg Anderson, Jr. (Navy), Curtis LeMay (Air Force), and Edwin Roland (Coast Guard), along with a few others, all chaired by Lyman Lemnitzer (Army). The entire board of the Joint Chiefs of Staff proposed, drafted, and agreed on a plan to concoct a casus belli for war against Communist Cuba, under Fidel Castro. Their collective motive was to reduce the constant threat of Communist encroachment into the Western Hemisphere, per the Monroe Doctrine.

This plan was named Operation Northwoods, and entailed the most impossibly indifferent cruelty ever envisioned by a government against its own people. In order to sway public sentiment in favor of the war, the Joint Chiefs planned to bomb high pedestrian-traffic areas in major American cities, including Miami, New York, Washington, D. C., and possibly Chicago and Los Angeles; to frame U. S. citizens for these bombings; to shoot innocent, unarmed civilians on the streets in full view of hundreds of witnesses; to napalm military and merchant vessels in port, while people were aboard; to sink vessels carrying Cuban refugees bound for Florida; to hijack planes for ransom.

Not only did every single member of the Joint Chiefs sign his approval of this plan, they then sent it to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara for his approval, and then to President Kennedy. McNamara claimed years later never to have seen it, but that he would have rejected it. Kennedy, however, did receive it, and promptly called a meeting of the Joint Chiefs, in which he threatened, with severe profanity, to court martial and incarcerate every one of them. The President cannot actually do this, but can order the Congress and military branches to do so, and in these circumstances, they most certainly would have. But Kennedy decided that it would cause irreparable disrespect around the world for the U. S. military. He did remove Lemnitzer from his position as Chairman and assign him as Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, not much of a demotion.

Theorists claim that the military may have had a hand in Kennedy’s assassination because of his blistering rebuke of the Joint Chiefs. This, however, remains unproven.

http://listverse.com/2013/05/02/10-nefarious-conspiracies-proven-true/


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## Tisme (10 February 2018)

newanimal said:


> and what does a former head of state of Italy know... surely another "nut job".




Fruitcake or too much vino


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## basilio (10 February 2018)

Further information on Operation Northwoods and when the proposal was released (1997)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
http://www.smeggys.co.uk/operation_northwoods.php
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1


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## Tisme (10 February 2018)

basilio said:


> *10 Nefarious Conspiracies Proven True*
> 
> 
> 2
> ...




How does that qualify as a conspiracy? Cuba Project was documented by the joint chiefs with Lemnitzer's signature all over the correspondence

Conspiracies are generally predicated on the assumption that the audience is naive, which in truth is not generally the case. It's the ones who can't see the woods for the trees who have to invent intrigue to explain their slow uptake of what's going on in front of their noses.


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## SirRumpole (10 February 2018)

basilio said:


> Further information on Operation Northwoods and when the proposal was released (1997)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
> http://www.smeggys.co.uk/operation_northwoods.php
> http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1




Absolutely amazing that the US military would even propose such a monstrosity.

There are  some really f..cked in the head military people around. I wonder how many are still there. Or in our government perhaps ???



> *Operation Northwoods* was a proposed false flag operation against the Cuban government that originated within the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other U.S. government operatives to _*commit acts of terrorism against American civilians and military targets*_, blaming it on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The plans detailed in the document included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.[2] The proposals were rejected by the Kennedy administration.[3]


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## Wysiwyg (10 February 2018)

Could this stuff go on the conspiracy theory thread please. Islam and associates have mellowed in recent times. 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-conspiracy-theory-thread.12859/


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## basilio (10 February 2018)

Yep this has gone off tangent.


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## wayneL (21 March 2018)

Damn,  this kid is smart.


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## Tisme (21 March 2018)

You see this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...at-assessment-centre-criticised-loopy/9494542

The feminist lobby are actually linking terrorism to domestic violence against women. It's domestic violence that spawns terrorism ... true just ask "The Conversation".


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## basilio (23 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> You see this:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...at-assessment-centre-criticised-loopy/9494542
> 
> The feminist lobby are actually linking terrorism to domestic violence against women. It's domestic violence that spawns terrorism ... true just ask "The Conversation".




The story in The Conversation on this topic does open the conversation on links between domestic violence and terrorism.  Was a eyeopener for me.

*  We won’t stop lone-actor attacks until we understand violence against women  *
March 20, 2018 2.00pm AEDT
Many lone-actor attacks, including the 2014 Sydney siege, are carried out by perpetrators with a history of violence against women. Dean Lewis/AAP
*Authors*

  Jude McCulloch 
Professor of Criminology, Monash University


  JaneMaree Maher 
Professor, Centre for Women's Studies & Gender Research, Sociology, Monash University


  Kate Fitz-Gibbon 
Senior Lecturer in Criminology, Monash University


  Sandra Walklate 
Eleanor Rathbone Chair of Sociology, University of Liverpool

The Victorian government recently announced a new A$31.6 million centre to prevent and combat terrorist and lone-actor attacks. The centre will include specialist police, forensic and mental health experts, and a senior analyst to respond to people who pose such a risk.

However, the new centre will not include experts on family violence and other forms of violence against women. Failure to understand the links between lone-actor and terrorist violence and violence against women will undermine the centre’s effectiveness.

*Lone-actor attacks and violence against women*
The links between terrorist attacks and violence against women, most commonly family violence, are now well established.

Research in the US shows more than 50% of mass shootings in that country between 2009 and 2014 were preceded by the perpetrator’s murder of an intimate (ex)partner, or a family member. In addition, 16% of the attackers, overwhelmingly men, had been charged with domestic violence.

_ * Read more: Explainer: why some acts are classified as terrorism but others aren't * _

Infamously, Man Haron Monis, the gunman in the 2014 Sydney Lindt Café siege, was on bail at the time of the siege for dozens of sex offences, and for being an accessory to the murder of his ex-wife.

This history of violence against women is evident in the biographies of other terrorists. These include one of the Tsarnaev brothers, responsible for the 2013 Boston Marathon bombings; Omar Mateen, who attacked a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, killing 49 people in 2016; Khalid Masood, who crashed his car into pedestrians and stabbed a police officer in London in 2017; and Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel, who killed 80 people in Nice, France, in 2016.
https://theconversation.com/we-wont...il-we-understand-violence-against-women-92923


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2018)

basilio said:


> *Lone-actor attacks and violence against women*
> The links between terrorist attacks and violence against women, most commonly family violence, are now well established.




Violent people are...well, violent.

I don't think that's a surprise but it shows the need for harsher sentences for family violence to keep the terrorists off the streets.


----------



## DB008 (24 March 2018)

*'Heroic' gendarme fights for life after latest police attack*​A gendarme hailed as a national hero after he volunteered to take the place of a female hostage being held by a terrorist gunman has been named as Lt Col Arnaud Beltrame.

The 44-year-old officer is fighting for his life in hospital after he was shot several times by the suspected Islamist extremist who killed three people and injured 16 others before being killed by French special forces.

Beltrame, described by French president Emmanuel Macron as a “credit to our country” and a hero who had “saved lives”, played a vital role in the four-hour hostage drama.

After gunman Redouane Lakdim walked into the Super U supermarket in Trèbes near Carcassonne on Friday morning and killed a member of staff and a customer, Beltrame, a local gendarme, offered to swap places with one of the hostages.

*History of terror*
​France’s forces of law and order have repeatedly been singled out by Islamic extremists in the past three years since a state of emergency was introduced in January 2015 after the attack on Charlie Hebdo newspaper and a Jewish supermarket in Paris.

*January 2015: *The Kouachi brothers, who gunned down 11 people at Charlie Hebdo magazine in Paris, shot a police officer in the head as they fled the scene. A day later, 25-year-old trainee police officer Clarissa Jean-Philippe was gunned down by Amédy Coulibaly who killed four people and took hostages at the Hyper Cacher Jewish supermarket in Paris before being killed in a shootout with police.

*February 2015:* a man with a knife attacked a group of soldiers guarding a Jewish community centre in Nice.

*January 2016:* A man rammed his car twice into four soldiers protecting a mosque in Valence. Jihad propaganda images were found on his computer. A few days later, a man wearing a fake explosive belt attacked police officers in the Goutte d’Or district of Paris with a meat cleaver while shouting Allahu Akbar. He was shot dead by police.

*June 2016:* a police officer and his partner, a police secretary, were stabbed to death at their home on the outskirts of Paris in front of their three-year-old son. Their attacker, Larossi Abballa, had been convicted of terrorist links in 2013. He was killed in a shootout with police. Islamic State claimed responsibility.

*3 February 2017:* a man wielding a machete in each hand attacked patrolling soldiers in the Carrousel du Louvre, shouting Allahu Akbar. The suspect, a 29-year-old Egyptian was shot and wounded.

*18 March 2017:* a man claiming he was “ready to die for Allah” tried to grab a gun from a soldier patrolling Orly airport before being shot dead. He had earlier shot and injured a police officer in a northern Paris suburb.

*20 April 2017:* Police officer Xavier Jugelé was killed while out on patrol on the Champs-Elysées. He was eating a sandwich in his police van, when Karim Cheurfi shot him in the head.

*6 June 2017:* An Algerian Islamist attacked a police officer with a hammer in the street in front of Notre-Dame cathedral. The man who claimed to be a “soldier of the caliphate” of IS was shot by a second police officer.

*19 June 2017:* A man rammed his car into a police vehicle. After he was shot dead, explosives, an assault rifle and handguns were reportedly found in his car. 

*9 August 2017: *A man rammed his car into soldiers near their barracks at Levallois-Perret, a Paris suburb. He was tracked to a nearby motorway and arrested after a shootout.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-swapped-places-with-hostage-in-french-attack​

Very worrisome that the Bataclan events in November 2015 (where 130 people died in Islamic terrorist attacks) were left out deliberately from the list above.


----------



## DB008 (24 March 2018)

*Arnaud Beltrame: French police 'hero' dies of wounds*​
A French police officer who swapped himself for a hostage in a supermarket siege on Friday has died, officials say.

Lt-Col Arnaud Beltrame, 44, "fell as a hero" and showed "exceptional courage", French President Emmanuel Macron said.

The gendarme helped bring an end to a gunman's shooting spree that killed three in southern France.

The radical Islamist gunman, 25-year-old Redouane Lakdim, was shot dead as police brought the siege to an end.

Col Beltrame's death was announced on Twitter by French Interior Minister Gérard Collomb.

In a radio interview on Saturday, Col Beltrame's brother, Cedric, said Arnaud's actions were "beyond the call of duty".

"He gave his life for strangers. He must have known that he didn't really have a chance. If that doesn't make him a hero, I don't know what would," he said.

​


----------



## basilio (24 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Violent people are...well, violent.
> 
> I don't think that's a surprise but it shows the need for harsher sentences for family violence to keep the terrorists off the streets.




Perhaps also some understanding and acceptance of what is happening (rather than just ignoring it or blaming the victim) , support for the people affected and constructive support for people who respond with abuse/aggression.


----------



## Tisme (25 March 2018)

DB008 said:


> *Arnaud Beltrame: French police 'hero' dies of wounds*​
> A French police officer who swapped himself for a hostage in a supermarket siege on Friday has died, officials say.
> 
> Lt-Col Arnaud Beltrame, 44, "fell as a hero" and showed "exceptional courage", French President Emmanuel Macron said.
> ...





Very sad and infuriating


----------



## dutchie (26 March 2018)

Cadbury Easter eggs halal certified. 
Cadbury are a joke.


----------



## Tisme (26 March 2018)

dutchie said:


> Cadbury Easter eggs halal certified.
> Cadbury are a joke.




Cue the apologists who will point out that Easter eggs aren't a Jebus ritual and that sons of white anglophile women are responsible for repression of black people and asians, therefore eggs have a right to marry same sex eggs or identify as Islamic.


----------



## dutchie (26 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Cue the apologists who will point out that Easter eggs aren't a Jebus ritual and that sons of white anglophile women are responsible for repression of black people and asians, therefore eggs have a right to marry same sex eggs or identify as Islamic.



Eggsactly!


----------



## Tisme (26 March 2018)

dutchie said:


> Eggsactly!




Not too eggstraneous?


----------



## Tisme (26 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Perhaps also some understanding and acceptance of what is happening (rather than just ignoring it or blaming the victim) , support for the people affected and constructive support for people who respond with abuse/aggression.




Yes, I can see where you are coming from... people who are potty mouthed insulters and name callers, social destructors,  incomprehensible, abusive, impolite and intolerant. No place for those kind of people 

perhaps you could turn you hand to memes and save the world too? 

https://imgflip.com/memegenerator


----------



## bellenuit (3 May 2018)

*Saudi Arabia will execute 'atheist for insulting the prophet'*

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/saudi-arabia-will-execute-atheist-insulting-prophet-1619153


----------



## newanimal (3 May 2018)

bellenuit said:


> *Saudi Arabia will execute 'atheist for insulting the prophet'*
> 
> https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/saudi-arabia-will-execute-atheist-insulting-prophet-1619153




Forgiveness and the Golden Rule (do unto others...) doesn't seem to be part of their program. Essentially I'd call this satanism.


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2018)

Interesting how the trajectories of the Greens and militia Islam track each other.


----------



## bellenuit (3 May 2018)

newanimal said:


> Forgiveness and the Golden Rule (do unto others...) doesn't seem to be part of their program. Essentially I'd call this satanism.




No, that would be misleading. They are following the tenets laid down by their deity as espoused by the prophet Mohammed.


----------



## newanimal (3 May 2018)

bellenuit said:


> No, that would be misleading. They are following the tenets laid down by their deity as espoused by the prophet Mohammed.




yes I know. I should clarify, the spirit behind these tenets is satanic in nature IMO.


----------



## basilio (3 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Interesting how the trajectories of the Greens and militia Islam track each other.



Really  ??? 

Why don't you tell us how you see this particular event having a similar trajectory for the Greens ?


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2018)

basilio said:


> Really  ???
> 
> Why don't you tell us how you see this particular event having a similar trajectory for the Greens ?




Mate, I think our tete a tetes are over, don't you? Sadly I will chalk it up as a win for blue-pencilling.


----------



## luutzu (3 May 2018)

bellenuit said:


> *Saudi Arabia will execute 'atheist for insulting the prophet'*
> 
> https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/saudi-arabia-will-execute-atheist-insulting-prophet-1619153


----------



## cynic (3 May 2018)

newanimal said:


> Forgiveness and the Golden Rule (do unto others...) doesn't seem to be part of their program. Essentially I'd call this satanism.



It looks, to me, more akin to a zealous expression of HolierThanThouism.

However, it could be argued that HolyThanThouists, are deceiving themselves , and as such, are (unwittingly) honouring the Prince of Lies and Darkness.


----------



## newanimal (4 May 2018)

Don't know much about Islamic doctrine per se, but there seem to be variations flavors and practice.  Many adherents to Islam around the world and US seem to be living by a prescribed code of ethics and morality.
The radical brand (beheadings, oppression of women, etc.) would seem to come straight from the book of demons.  Independent thinking and questioning one's inherited belief system doesn't seem to be their   strong suit. 
Unfortunately, the former group is getting a bad rap due to the latter group AND western propaganda
IMO.
Personally, I'm not much into doctrines and belief systems and go for enlightenment practices leading to awakening of consciousness and the heart. Keeping living codes simple, kindness, compassion, humility, etc. I wish more people on the planet would do the same, but I wouldn't want to behead anyone that didn't agree.


----------



## bellenuit (4 May 2018)

newanimal said:


> The radical brand (beheadings, oppression of women, etc.) would seem to come straight from the book of demons.




No, again this is misleading. These unsavoury aspects of Islam come straight from the Quran itself and are the prophet's interpreting the will of Allah, so it is wrong to ascribe them to Satan or demons.

The Quran contains both good and bad passages when it comes to morality. One of the many problems with Islam is that instead of confronting what is bad in Islam and making changes, many chose to simply deny what the Quran says.


----------



## newanimal (4 May 2018)

Bellenuit, respectfully, I don't think you're getting my meaning.  I believe you that these unsavory aspects are straight from the Quran itself. Haven't read it but I'll take your word for it.  No attempt to deny the bad passages or let the Quran off the hook here. I'm simply saying that I believe the "prophet" was demonically influenced in his interpretation. I do not believe that such horrific atrocities would be commanded or instructed from a high or ultimate spiritual source if you will. This is very barbaric **** here. If you don't personally believe in non physical dimensions or realities that may act upon or influence humanity, we'll have to disagree on that point.  As far as I'm concerned, you can burn the damn book. Just don't tell any extremist morons I said so. Thank you


----------



## SirRumpole (4 May 2018)

bellenuit said:


> No, again this is misleading. These unsavoury aspects of Islam come straight from the Quran itself and are the prophet's interpreting the will of Allah, so it is wrong to ascribe them to Satan or demons.




Muhammed claims the archangel Gabriel gave him his teachings. Anyone could claim that, even a demented person, so I don't know why millions choose to believe him.


----------



## luutzu (4 May 2018)

bellenuit said:


> No, again this is misleading. These unsavoury aspects of Islam come straight from the Quran itself and are the prophet's interpreting the will of Allah, so it is wrong to ascribe them to Satan or demons.
> 
> The Quran contains both good and bad passages when it comes to morality. One of the many problems with Islam is that instead of confronting what is bad in Islam and making changes, many chose to simply deny what the Quran says.




So these idiots lopped of people's head "for Allah". That's bad, I mean that. It's screwed up. 

But have you seen what else they, and our great protector, have also been doing in Yemen? 

They've droned, bombed, destroy all infrastructure, blockade the entire country, starving its people, causing the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world right now - and that's really bad seeing what's goign on in the world. etc. etc.

And those aren't done for Allah. It's for money and grand strategy. 

But I guess it's nice to see "Christian" bombs and technology working hand in hand with Islam extremism of the good kind.


----------



## newanimal (4 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> So these idiots lopped of people's head "for Allah". That's bad, I mean that. It's screwed up.
> 
> But have you seen what else they, and our great protector, have also been doing in Yemen?
> 
> ...




Right. Yemens a good point. Notice that it's being blacked out of MSM and our attention is being distracted by same old kabuki theater dramas i.e. Rusky influence on US politics while Yemens plundered as a rich oil source and poor farmers are being genocided.


----------



## luutzu (4 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Muhammed claims the archangel Gabriel gave him his teachings. Anyone could claim that, even a demented person, so I don't know why millions choose to believe him.




Same reason they chose to believe the bastard son of a carpenter is the son of God. 

In that old Hollywood-ish movie on Muhammed, I think they explained it that he must have spoken to Gabriel because what he wrote is so beautiful and profound. 

That him being an almost illiterate merchant for most of his life; with no formal education... he could not possibly have written but transcribe from a god.


----------



## newanimal (4 May 2018)

bellenuit said:


> No, again this is misleading. These unsavoury aspects of Islam come straight from the Quran itself and are the prophet's interpreting the will of Allah, so it is wrong to ascribe them to Satan or demons.
> 
> The Quran contains both good and bad passages when it comes to morality. One of the many problems with Islam is that instead of confronting what is bad in Islam and making changes, many chose to simply deny what the Quran says.




Bellenuit-- just reread that  post (mine) and it suddenly morphed. I see how it could be interpreted the way you did. I feel duty bound to retract my being overly  critical of your reply and to keep Zeus appeased. But the clarification of my intended meaning holds. just sayin


----------



## cynic (4 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> So these idiots lopped of people's head "for Allah".



That's just the excuse they gave themselves, but not the true reason why they acted so!
From what little I have seen of english translations from the Quran, they could have just as easily, justified a more amicable response.


> That's bad, I mean that. It's screwed up.



 I am tempted to agree, but as has been suggested by another, it may prove prudent not to tell them so.


----------



## newanimal (4 May 2018)

cynic said:


> That's just the excuse they gave themselves, but not the true reason why they acted so!
> From what little I have seen of english translations from the Quran, they could have just as easily, justified a more amicable response.




Probably true. What does that say about the individuals or groups who choose that response... very disturbing


----------



## newanimal (4 May 2018)

Moving from extremist fundamentalist morons practicing overt evil, to a psychopathic liar practicing a more deceptive covert form... Bibi cries wolf again and again and again. Hey, why not challenge one's conditioned beliefs-- give a de-propagandized version a fair hearing. This guy's best friend lost his life leaving wife and kids fatherless fighting not for the interests of the American people, but as an American attack dog for Bibi.


----------



## luutzu (4 May 2018)

cynic said:


> That's just the excuse they gave themselves, but not the true reason why they acted so!
> From what little I have seen of english translations from the Quran, they could have just as easily, justified a more amicable response.
> I am tempted to agree, but as has been suggested by another, it may prove prudent not to tell them so.




We little people can tell them, they won't care. It's big titled politicians who can't tell them... it'd be rude. Can't chastise people and take their people's money at the same time, can we? Definitely can't do it and force them to buy your arms and hardware. Manners are very important.

That and you have to let them play their games so that one day in the future, God forbid, they don't listen... you add them to that Axis of Evil list and liberate the crap out of their oil.


----------



## cynic (4 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> We little people can tell them, they won't care....



Have you put this to the test?

If not, by all means go ahead (whilst you still have one, that is) and see how that all works out for you!

Perhaps decapitation isn't so nasty as it sounds!

I can honestly say that I have never known a decapitee to voice any complaints about it!


----------



## luutzu (4 May 2018)

cynic said:


> Have you put this to the test?
> 
> If not, by all means go ahead (whilst you still have one, that is) and see how that all works out for you!
> 
> ...




You don't tell it to their face. That'd be suicidal. 

There's the internet... and then there's Aramco about to float. Buy a couple of shares and turn up on the annual meeting to  have a chat with The Reformer.


----------



## cynic (4 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> You don't tell it to their face. That'd be suicidal.
> 
> There's the internet...



Have you heard of an author named Salman Rushdie?


----------



## luutzu (4 May 2018)

cynic said:


> Have you heard of an author named Salman Rushdie?




Yes. 

That's why you don't insult people's religion. You only make fun of it when it's in some sort of an intellectual debate. 

I really don't like religion. It somehow managed to convince people to take the blame for the bad crap but praise the lord for the good things in life.


----------



## cynic (4 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> Yes.
> 
> That's why you don't insult people's religion. You only make fun of it when it's in some sort of an intellectual debate.
> 
> I really don't like religion. It somehow managed to convince people to take the blame for the bad crap but praise the lord for the good things in life.



Errrmm...when I encounter people making those type of judgments, I typically find that they have neglected to consider the existence of their own personal religion.

I have yet to engage in dialogue, with a single human, who wasn't religious about something!


----------



## newanimal (5 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> I really don't like religion.




Weird how the big three Abrahamic religions originate from the same source, yet throughout history the blood shedding between them never seems to end. What's up with that?


----------



## luutzu (5 May 2018)

cynic said:


> Errrmm...when I encounter people making those type of judgments, I typically find that they have neglected to consider the existence of their own personal religion.
> 
> I have yet to engage in dialogue, with a single human, who wasn't religious about something!




That would be me.


----------



## luutzu (5 May 2018)

newanimal said:


> Weird how the big three Abrahamic religions originate from the same source, yet throughout history the blood shedding between them never seems to end. What's up with that?




Daddy issue. 

That and oil, strategic passes and gateways. And oil.


----------



## TikoMike (7 May 2018)

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...story/ec80593236bd78ebdaeedfce2b1d65b6#.4bke8


----------



## Tisme (7 May 2018)

TikoMike said:


> http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...story/ec80593236bd78ebdaeedfce2b1d65b6#.4bke8




Interesting attitude


----------



## grah33 (9 May 2018)

TikoMike said:


> http://www.news.com.au/finance/work...story/ec80593236bd78ebdaeedfce2b1d65b6#.4bke8





Interesting comments by the muslim man. Not a surprise though. You'd kind of expect that . With increased sexuality and even gay marriage, it presents an opportunity for conquering.

Would u prefer your future descendants to be bisexual or Islamic?

Can u blame muslims if other groups aren't producing much offspring anymore?


It seems to me that in Islam there is a perceived good in controlling freedom of speech. It keeps everything Islamic, which is perceived as being in everyone's best interest.  If it is the correct religion, than that would be true.


----------



## TikoMike (5 June 2018)

Quite shocked that ACA actually aired this tonight when our left wing media generally apologise for Islam not having ever read the Quran and not knowing what the faith is all about. To be honest I don't feel sorry for this woman because virtue signallers or do gooders like this really deserve it for their stupidity. 

Posted below for those that missed it.


----------



## Tisme (6 June 2018)

TikoMike said:


> Quite shocked that ACA actually aired this tonight when our left wing media generally apologise for Islam not having ever read the Quran and not knowing what the faith is all about. To be honest I don't feel sorry for this woman because virtue signallers or do gooders like this really deserve it for their stupidity.
> 
> Posted below for those that missed it.





When you embrace multiculturalism you have to accept these kind of things. That's what it's all about, the right to form ghettos of all the different barbarian ethnics and morally moribund sexual deviants.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 June 2018)

The fact that ex Muslims have to stay  in hiding for fear of reprisals shows the inherent evil of Islam.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...secret-ex-muslim-network-in-australia/9811340


----------



## Tisme (9 June 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The fact that ex Muslims have to stay  in hiding for fear of reprisals shows the inherent evil of Islam.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...secret-ex-muslim-network-in-australia/9811340





It's only evil if you apply Christian values. Another twenty or so years, we should see the last of foundation western morality erased, by the post modernist traitors within.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 June 2018)

Tisme said:


> It's only evil if you apply Christian values. Another twenty or so years, we should see the last of foundation western morality erased, by the post modernist traitors within.




Sadly, I think you are probably right. Just look at Britain. Even a Conservative government hasn't got the guts to do anything about it, and even appoints a Muslim Minister of the Interior who wants a "fairer and more compassionate" immigration system (ie, more of his religious mates).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-fairer-more-compassionate-immigration-system


----------



## wayneL (9 June 2018)

I wouldn't write us off,  just yet. 

Encouraging signs... Austria,  Italy,  Hungary,  even Sweden. 

#freetommy rallies today and tomorrow all over the world may provide a clue too.


----------



## Lantern (9 June 2018)

The free Tommy Robinson petition on change.org has just over 600,000 signatures now

https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-free-tommy-robinson

Wish I could be in Whitehall today.


----------



## dutchie (9 June 2018)

Lantern said:


> Wish I could be in Whitehall today.




Consider going to the rallies in M,S,B or P on weekend.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/freedom-of-speech-and-protest.31657/page-12#post-984504


----------



## Lantern (12 June 2018)

Looks like this came about because of recent events.
Lovely little parody, with the accent more towards tragedy than comedy.


----------



## Tisme (12 June 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Sadly, I think you are probably right. Just look at Britain. Even a Conservative government hasn't got the guts to do anything about it, and even appoints a Muslim Minister of the Interior who wants a "fairer and more compassionate" immigration system (ie, more of his religious mates).
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-fairer-more-compassionate-immigration-system





Apparently 40% of migrant crimes are carried out by the 1%, which means 60% of migrant crimes are carried by the other 99%?


----------



## luutzu (12 June 2018)

Tisme said:


> Apparently 40% of migrant crimes are carried out by the 1%, which means 60% of migrant crimes are carried by the other 99%?




Don't think you can interpret statistics like that McGee.


----------



## Tisme (12 June 2018)

The Muslims upset at people driving on Ramadan Holiday in Birmingham England.

Enable speaker


----------



## SirRumpole (12 June 2018)

Tisme said:


> The Muslims upset at people driving on Ramadan Holiday in Birmingham England.
> 
> Enable speaker





As a former NSW Premier said to a former US President, "run the bastards down !".

Self defense could legitimately be claimed if some where knocked down by a vehicle trying to escape.


----------



## moXJO (12 June 2018)

That story was a fake.

*Football Fans Vandalism Video Being Shared As Muslims Rioting In Birmingham*


----------



## moXJO (12 June 2018)

Google is censoring content and webpages. Double check with bing or duckduckgo


----------



## wayneL (12 June 2018)

moXJO said:


> Google is censoring content and webpages. Double check with bing or duckduckgo



Alarmingly so. Often innocuous content that just doesn't fit the narrative. 

It's interesting that there are now serious efforts to find and support viable, less censorious platforms.


----------



## Tisme (12 June 2018)

moXJO said:


> That story was a fake.
> 
> *Football Fans Vandalism Video Being Shared As Muslims Rioting In Birmingham*




So what left hand drive  city did they riot in?


----------



## Tisme (1 July 2018)

anyone know what sentence the grub, Mustafa Kayirici  got?


----------



## SirRumpole (1 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> anyone know what sentence the grub, Mustafa Kayirici  got?




Still on trial I believe.


----------



## Tisme (9 July 2018)

Argument includes women's right to wear whatever they want in public, but of course they isn't really true in reality because even Oz has minimum standards.



> *Denmark bans the burqa, Pauline Hanson renews bid to criminalise face-veil in Australia*
> Ellen Whinnett and Annabel Hennessy in Copenhagen, Denmark, News Corp Australia Network
> July 7, 2018 10:00pm
> 
> ...


----------



## noirua (26 July 2018)

Is it Islam causing all this, a deeper thinking evil new branch of Islam or terrorists using the name of Islam? Whether using the name of Islam or not it becomes a branch of Islam and therefore Islam itself becomes evil, or maybe not?


----------



## dutchie (13 August 2018)

Equality according to the left


----------



## Tisme (13 August 2018)

dutchie said:


> Equality according to the left
> 
> View attachment 88848




The imbecile "left" are being groomed into Islam ... get used to the idea....... Cassius Clay was the great breakthrough moment.


----------



## Tisme (13 August 2018)




----------



## Tisme (14 August 2018)

Interesting conversation with someone in the know who reckons African natives are sponsor migrating to Oz under the premise they are persecuted Christians, the children are enrolled in christian schools only to reveal, after a settling in period, they are Muslims. Clever sting if it's true.


----------



## moXJO (19 August 2018)

So here's a story:
Guy and his wife (both sjws) want to ride around the world on bicycles and show that "there is no such thing as evil in the world". Apparently the pair of dkheads were Obama worshippers.

So they decide its probably a good idea to peddle through Isis territory. 
Anyone thats traveled to shtholes will tell you that life is cheap and education is minimal. This pair must have been living in a bubble.

As expected Isis runs them down in a car then jump out and stab them to death. 
Their blog is here:

http://www.simplycycling.org/blog/2016/10/6/a-bike-ride-around-the-world


----------



## Tisme (19 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> So here's a story:
> Guy and his wife (both sjws) want to ride around the world on bicycles and show that "there is no such thing as evil in the world". Apparently the pair of dkheads were Obama worshippers.
> 
> So they decide its probably a good idea to peddle through Isis territory.
> ...





Griswalds reality


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## Tisme (23 August 2018)

Wonder where your missing pet went?

"So yesterday 21/08/2018 marked the start of Eid Al-Adha or the Festival of Sacrifice as it is known in the English language. For four days countless amounts of animals across the world will now be slaughtered with no pre-stun and will suffer an horrendous death as they slowly bleed out from their sliced throats.

A little known fact for most westerners, those that take part in The Hajj (the annual pilgrimage to Mecca that must be carried out at least once in the lifetime of a muslim) will end their pilgrimage by carrying out the religious slaughter of an animal themselves. They will get to know the feeling of slicing the throat of a living animal and causing it to suffer.

Eid Mubarak to you all."

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=07779c4f6e79bfb1b30c03a7ee0dd895&oe=5C368C0D


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## macca (23 August 2018)

It is statements like this that cause concern

<<This dispute has lead Dr Kara-Ali to say “my religion comes before any governance>>

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2...nvironment-court-tree-clearing-muslim-charity


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## moXJO (24 August 2018)

https://www.google.com.au/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/10151702


*Indonesian Buddhist woman imprisoned after complaining mosque is too loud.*

The once buddhist nation - now majority muslim. They ransacked the Buddhist temples as well.


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## lindsayf (24 August 2018)

macca said:


> It is statements like this that cause concern
> 
> <<This dispute has lead Dr Kara-Ali to say “my religion comes before any governance>>
> 
> https://www.9news.com.au/national/2...nvironment-court-tree-clearing-muslim-charity



This ( the magistrates decision) will be another interesting tell to see how far we ( Australia) has gone down this 'must not offend muslims' rabbit hole.


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## SirRumpole (15 November 2018)

No remorse for Curtis Cheng murder.

The only sentence that could be passed is gaol untill he dies imo.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11...is-not-sorry-for-curtis-cheng-murder/10500560


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## DB008 (20 November 2018)

*Muslim Inbreeding is a Huge Problem - And People*
*Don't Want to Talk About It*​“Saudi Arabia is a living genetics laboratory,” Dr. Stephen R. Schroeder, executive director of the Prince Salman Center for Disability Research, told the _Times_. “Here you can study 10 families to study genetic disorders, where you would need 10,000 families to study genetic disorders in the United States.”

But it’s not just Saudi Arabia, or the Middle East for that matter. Inbreeding is surprisingly common in many Muslim nations and communities, evidence shows.

About 40 percent of the population marries a cousin in Egypt, according to a 2016 report in _The Economist_, while the percentage in Jordan is 32 percent.

“Rates are thought to be even higher in tribal countries such as Iraq and the Gulf states of Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Kuwait,” says the _Economist_.

A 2005 BBC survey found that 55 percent of Britain’s huge Pakistani population was married to a first cousin.

There are at least two reasons inbreeding is so common in parts of the Muslim world (in addition to ignorance of its link to genetic defects): tradition and religion.​
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org...ge-problem-and-people-dont-want-talk-about-it​


*Ban UK Pakistanis from marrying cousins*​LONDON: Britain's huge Pakistani community should be legally prevented from marrying first cousins, a Labour Party MP has declared, after new research showed Pakistani families produced an alarming 30% of the UK's genetically diseased children.

The research, conducted by the BBC and broadcast to a shocked nation on Tuesday, found that at least 55% of the community was married to a first cousin.​
This is thought to be linked to the probability that a British Pakistani family is at least 13 times more likely than the general population to have children with recessive genetic disorders.​
The research found that while British Pakistanis accounted for just 3.4% of all births, they had 30% of all British children with recessive disorders and a higher rate of infant mortality.​
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...rom-marrying-cousins/articleshow/1298135.cms?​

*London borough finds one in five child deaths caused by parents being related*​Children of consanguineous couples accounted for 19 per cent of child death cases in Redbridge between 2008 and 2016, report shows

One in five child deaths in an east London borough have occurred because the mother and father are related, a report has found.

Redbridge Council found deaths of children from parents who were known consanguineous couples – meaning second cousins or more closely related – accounted for 19 per cent of 124 cases reviewed in the borough between 2008 and 2016.​
The number of consanguineous parents in the borough has increased in the past year, but there has been an overall decrease since 2009-10, when Redbridge recorded the highest numbers of interfamily relationships.​
Nine per cent of the children who died were from families with Pakistani origins – a group that had the highest rates of consanguineous parents, at 50 per cent, according to the report.​
 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-borough-child-deaths-redbridge-parents-related-cousins-pakistani-families-council-report-a7741146.html​


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## sptrawler (20 November 2018)

That's an interesting post DB008, I'm surprised the info hasn't been more widely reported.
But I guess that isn't PC.


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## Sdajii (21 November 2018)

I went through the checkout at the supermarket yesterday. A Muslim woman in a hijab was the checkout chick, her face was completely battered and bruised, she'd used very think makeup in an attempt to hide it, and the hijab was pulled out and over more than usual to cover more of the face than usual, but it was still completely obvious. I cringe to think of how she looked after washing her face that night. She seemed quite terrified of the world and was over the top polite with me, treating me as an obvious superior to be feared, respected and pandered to.

As a tall, white, straight man, I'm not sure who I can report something like that to without being convicted of some white supremacist hate crime of intolerance. It's their culture, literally spelled out directly in their holy book, after all. Obviously this is my fault, personally, as an individual. It's caused by an ideology which directly tells people to do exactly this and prescribes death for anyone who opposes it even if they so much as question a single word of it. It's my fault. Don't ask me how, just ask some lefty or something, they'll be able to explain it.


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## tech/a (21 November 2018)

There are abuse centre's reach out to one of them


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## luutzu (21 November 2018)

Sdajii said:


> I went through the checkout at the supermarket yesterday. A Muslim woman in a hijab was the checkout chick, her face was completely battered and bruised, she'd used very think makeup in an attempt to hide it, and the hijab was pulled out and over more than usual to cover more of the face than usual, but it was still completely obvious. I cringe to think of how she looked after washing her face that night. She seemed quite terrified of the world and was over the top polite with me, treating me as an obvious superior to be feared, respected and pandered to.
> 
> As a tall, white, straight man, I'm not sure who I can report something like that to without being convicted of some white supremacist hate crime of intolerance. It's their culture, literally spelled out directly in their holy book, after all. Obviously this is my fault, personally, as an individual. It's caused by an ideology which directly tells people to do exactly this and prescribes death for anyone who opposes it even if they so much as question a single word of it. It's my fault. Don't ask me how, just ask some lefty or something, they'll be able to explain it.




If you believe she was abused, you should report it. I don't think anyone would accuse you of being this or that; or would excuse her abuser as some sort of righteous "Muslim" following the teachings of their Holy Book. 

Even if the Koran and other Islamic books approve or teaches that, no lefty, no decent human bieng would put up with it. Not in Australia. 

But if you want to imply that Islam is violent and Muslims are taught to beat their wife (wives)... I'm sure there are some farkers who would use this and that book to justify their abuse. But come on... pretty much every culture and every religion have their share of wife beating a-holes. 

I'm sure we all know or heard of abusive partners. Had a friend some years ago and he was retelling how his a-hole brother in law of his in VN beat the crap out of his wife. Not just a touch or a push, not that that's acceptable, but full on punching bag kind of beating. We were both pizzed off hearing it. I'd hate to think that someone else would look at how that prick treat his wife and assume all us Viets do the same to ours.


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## TheBigKangaroo (21 November 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you have to ask what good has Islam done and compare that with what bad it has done.
> 
> Bad. Corrupting young minds, enslaving generations by family pressure, coercion and intimidation to be devoted to the elders of the church and THEIR interpretations of the Koran, encouraging violence, repressing women, kidnapping and enslaving girls, shooting a young girl for speaking out against them, and the list goes on.
> 
> ...





Isam is a devise, archaic ideology that has at its very core, the want to dominate the world and it does not matter how it achieves this.  I have followed the "islamisation" of the world for near 20 years and it is very clear.  I can not remember when exactly but it was Colonel Gaddafi that said to the effect that we (islam) will dominate the World...and we will not need to fire a shot.  This was in reference to moving to countries and over breed thereby via democratic rules, take control of the politics and well...rule the World.  I would not want to be a women in an islamic country and it is happening all over the world as we speak.  Unfortunately it is years too late to stop it and I can assure everyone that the country and freedoms our fore fathers fought 2 wars to protect will be lost in less than 10 years time.  It is getting there now.  We spend hundreds of millions to protect ourselves, not from other countries, but from "home grown" terrorists.  It makes me extremely sad.  Rant over.


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## luutzu (22 November 2018)

TheBigKangaroo said:


> Isam is a devise, archaic ideology that has at its very core, the want to dominate the world and it does not matter how it achieves this.  I have followed the "islamisation" of the world for near 20 years and it is very clear.  I can not remember when exactly but it was Colonel Gaddafi that said to the effect that we (islam) will dominate the World...and we will not need to fire a shot.  This was in reference to moving to countries and over breed thereby via democratic rules, take control of the politics and well...rule the World.  I would not want to be a women in an islamic country and it is happening all over the world as we speak.  Unfortunately it is years too late to stop it and I can assure everyone that the country and freedoms our fore fathers fought 2 wars to protect will be lost in less than 10 years time.  It is getting there now.  We spend hundreds of millions to protect ourselves, not from other countries, but from "home grown" terrorists.  It makes me extremely sad.  Rant over.




Politicians in democracies follow the will of the people do they? Is that why the majority plebs are still plebs? They like living hand to mouth do they? Be to their eyeballs in debt, paying ever higher and higher for everything while their wages goes nowhere for some 4 decades?

And no. Muslims do not escape to Europe with a master plan to rule the world (through democracy). btw, if they plan to rule through over breeding (more votes)... wouldn't the West still be democratic? 

Honestly, the vast majority of those who escape are genuine refugees. To think that they're terrorists or potential terrorists will not do us any good but will cause a heck of a lot of suffering on those who are trying to escape from the terror.


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## SirRumpole (22 November 2018)

luutzu said:


> but will cause a heck of a lot of suffering on those who are trying to escape from the terror.




That "terror" is induced by their fellow Muslims.


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## luutzu (22 November 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> That "terror" is induced by their fellow Muslims.




By terrorists and warlords who claim to also be pious and Muslim. Nothing fellow about it.

And to quote Trump, "King, you wouldn't last two weeks without us". 

Though to be fair to Western civilisation, China is pulling similar stuff in Africa too. War, famine, "resource curse". 

Can't ignore the suffering of others who might be victims. Jesus would not approve. So they have to be terrorists and lazy welfare seeking, world dominating backward ideological, religious crazies... then we reject them. For security and civilisation.


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## Knobby22 (22 November 2018)

Sdajii said:


> I went through the checkout at the supermarket yesterday. A Muslim woman in a hijab was the checkout chick, her face was completely battered and bruised, she'd used very think makeup in an attempt to hide it, and the hijab was pulled out and over more than usual to cover more of the face than usual, but it was still completely obvious. I cringe to think of how she looked after washing her face that night. She seemed quite terrified of the world and was over the top polite with me, treating me as an obvious superior to be feared, respected and pandered to.
> 
> As a tall, white, straight man, I'm not sure who I can report something like that to without being convicted of some white supremacist hate crime of intolerance. It's their culture, literally spelled out directly in their holy book, after all. Obviously this is my fault, personally, as an individual. It's caused by an ideology which directly tells people to do exactly this and prescribes death for anyone who opposes it even if they so much as question a single word of it. It's my fault. Don't ask me how, just ask some lefty or something, they'll be able to explain it.



Don't make inane excuses for your inaction. I hope you do better next time.


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## Sdajii (30 November 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Don't make inane excuses for your inaction. I hope you do better next time.




As another example, yesterday I went to see a movie, and one of the cleaning staff called out to me. She recognised me, she used to work at a hotel I'd stayed at regularly when she was working there. Her face is completely disfigured from an horrific acid attack from a Muslim man who liked her, but the feeling wasn't mutual. She just accepts that these things can happen, and as a Muslim woman that's her place in the world. Having said that, she did report it to the police at the time, but he did a runner and they can't find him.

Also worth mentioning is that I'm not currently in Australia, right now I'm in Thailand, and I'm not going to report anything of the sort here, for political reasons too long to discuss in this thread, but I also wouldn't in Australia, because I've tried that sort of thing in Australia and seen others try the same, and the results don't encourage you to do it again, and that's one small example of the many reasons I now spend only a few weeks per year in my home country.

You just about need your eyes sewn shut to avoid seeing what's happening, but I suppose most people have a talent for blindness and a remarkable ability to believe the political narratives fed to them.

And yes, of course you see this in all places and cultures, but it's radically higher among certain demographics. Islam isn't the demographic it's highest in in Australia (if I named that demographic I'd be vilified as racist, despite the fact that I'd merely be making a factual statement about women being abused and expressing my desire for that not to happen), but it's right up there, and of all the countries I've been to (and I rarely stay in the same country for more than a couple of months at a time, so I see quite a few), Islam is overwhelmingly the most extreme demographic for violence against women.

But hey, feminists for Islam! You go, girl!


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## SirRumpole (30 November 2018)

Sdajii said:


> Islam is overwhelmingly the most extreme demographic for violence against women.




Hindus in India don't have a great reputation either, in fact India is the worst according to this:-

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-dangerous-countries-for-women-idUSKBN1JM01Z


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## Sdajii (30 November 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Hindus in India don't have a great reputation either, in fact India is the worst according to this:-
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...t-dangerous-countries-for-women-idUSKBN1JM01Z




I was in India for some of this year. Sure is a dysfunctional country in many ways, and I certainly wouldn't want to have been born female there, but if I had been, I can wholeheartedly say I would not want to have the extra misfortune of being born into a Muslim family there.


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## Wysiwyg (16 March 2019)

Interesting in the news was a jihadi female that was happy to pose with an AK-47 and supporting the killing of harmless people during the ISIL surge wants to come back to Australia. Whoa. Killing people is a life inprisonment thing.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03...in-syria-says-she-wants-to-come-home/10899040

Now pleading for assistance.


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## sptrawler (20 March 2019)

I wonder what would happen if the Australian Prime Minister, said he would send Turks home in body bags, if an atrocity happened in Turkey?

Actually if it was an Australian P.M that said it, our press would be all over it, they would take him out the back and thrash him.

https://thewest.com.au/politics/fed...recep-erdogans-coffins-comment-ng-b881141388z


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## IFocus (20 March 2019)

Erdogan is a dictator and happy to talk like one, the attack in NZ will expose Australians else where in the world.


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## wayneL (20 March 2019)

It exposes the double standard. We must play by Marquis of Queensbury, with one hand tied behind our back,  while the rest of the world are running around with machetes and iron bars. 

Suicidal.


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## moXJO (20 March 2019)

IFocus said:


> Erdogan is a dictator and happy to talk like one, the attack in NZ will expose Australians else where in the world.



Turkey has an election on,  I think.


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## Darc Knight (20 March 2019)

"Australians with anti Muslim views would be sent home in coffins"?
Not speaking for Muslims is he? What an idiot.

"Mr Morrison said it was the job of tolerant societies like Australia not to escalate the war of words."

I think all Aus Political leaders have displayed diplomacy.


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## Wysiwyg (20 March 2019)

Might spend this one at the local memorial.


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## IFocus (21 March 2019)

wayneL said:


> It exposes the double standard. We must play by Marquis of Queensbury, with one hand tied behind our back,  while the rest of the world are running around with machetes and iron bars.
> 
> Suicidal.




Yeah....Nah, we are 1st world they will forever be 3rd world the conservative right are always trying to drag us back.......to 3rd world


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## wayneL (21 March 2019)

I'm not gonna even dignify that ifocus. 

Anyway,  just one of several incidents in the last few days that hasn't seemed to stoke the perpetually outraged. 

I wonder why?


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## DB008 (23 March 2019)

NZ has buckled to Islam.





​


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## SirRumpole (23 March 2019)

DB008 said:


> NZ has buckled to Islam.
> 
> View attachment 93212
> ​
> ...




Yes I found Adern's response in terms of the headscarf uneccesarilly tokenistic and shallow.

If a Muslim nutcase murdered people on a beach would all the Muslim women walk around in bikinis ?

We are who we are and we should celebrate diversity.


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## basilio (23 March 2019)

It seems that many other observers *both Western and in the Muslim world* thought  Jacinda Ardern offered an exemplary model of empathy and leadership in responding to the massacre of  50 plus men women and children in a Christchurch mosque. 

*World's tallest building lit up with image of Jacinda Ardern*
*

*
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/wo...-image-of-jacinda-ardern-20190323-p516ua.html


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## basilio (23 March 2019)

Ardern has received credit from commentators around the world for her handling of the tragedy.

Two glowing editorials by _The New York Times_ were headlined "America deserves a leader as good as Jacinda Ardern", and "Jacinda Ardern leads by following no-one".

_The New Yorker_ ran a piece titled "Jacinda Ardern has rewritten the script for how a nation grieves after a terrorist attack", crediting her empathy and action to ban military-style semi-automatics and insistence on not naming the killer.


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## basilio (23 March 2019)

Jacinda Arden will be on The Project on Monday with an interview with Waleed Aly
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/na...-ardern-meets-waleed-aly-20190323-p516u0.html


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## DB008 (23 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Jacinda Arden will be on The Project on Monday with an interview with Waleed Aly
> https://www.canberratimes.com.au/na...-ardern-meets-waleed-aly-20190323-p516u0.html




No doubt Waleed will be pushing his agenda as usual.


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## basilio (23 March 2019)

DB008 said:


> No doubt Waleed will be pushing his agenda as usual.




Perhaps she should have talked with Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones ?  Just to understand what the real problems are with treating people like human beings.


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## DB008 (24 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Jacinda Arden will be on The Project on Monday with an interview with Waleed Aly
> https://www.canberratimes.com.au/na...-ardern-meets-waleed-aly-20190323-p516u0.html




Ok. Will Waleed Aly get onto this topic then...


*Christchurch mosque shootings: 'Manifesto' deemed objectionable*​
*A publication reportedly written by the man accused of the Christchurch shootings has been officially classified as objectionable by the Chief Censor.*​
The document was examined under the Films, Videos & Publications Classification Act and was deemed objectionable for a number of reasons.​
Chief Censor David Shanks said others have referred to the publication as a "manifesto", but he considers it a "crude booklet" which promotes murder and terrorism.

Mr Shanks said this publication crosses the line to make it objectionable under New Zealand law.

"There is an important distinction to be made between 'hate speech', which may be rejected by many right-thinking people but which is legal to express, and this type of publication, which is deliberately constructed to inspire further murder and terrorism," he said.

According to the Department of Internal Affairs, "knowingly" possessing or sharing objectionable material carries up to a 14 year jail term.


1) The Quran fits into the same category and should be banned
2) Censorship is a slippery slope


Here are some comments about this....


_I read the majority of the manifesto. This is exactly the reaction the shooter wanted. This is literally terrorism winning.
How can anyone advocate for locking a person in a cage for 14 years for the non-violent act of reading a document?_​


_I had no interest before but now I want to read it...
Streisand's effect at it's finest._​


_Because it allows them to setup a precedent for any 'future attacks' or 'call to violence' or 'protests' maybe next what you say online can put you in jail...they want to control and these tragedies give them the power to do it since everyone is all emotional. Rights are getting eroded.



You can buy Mein Kampf, but if you share this meme-filled manifesto you're off to prison._​

_Kiwi here.
Not a good move.
The government should not decide what we can and can't read_​

_Fellow Kiwi here.
Couldn't agree more. This is absolutely stupid. I don't think anyone is going to read that and be converted or whatever it is that they think it will do. You can read extreme manifestos from all sorts of political backgrounds, why draw the line at a shitty half-satire manifesto? I don't get it._​

_The literal worst of ideas.
Banning a piece of paper. Maybe have a book burning while you're at it.
Countries like NZ always pride themselves on things like "we will not be afraid" "we won't let this divide us" and stuff like that. Meanwhile they are so afraid of some random alt-right ramblings that they will put people in prison for owning it. Way to not let yourself live in fear NZ._​


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## basilio (24 March 2019)

DB008 said:


> There is an important distinction to be made between 'hate speech', which may be rejected by many right-thinking people but which is legal to express, and this type of publication, which is deliberately constructed to inspire further murder and terrorism," he said.




I think that is the basis on which the booklet is banned. Given that the murderer decided to kill as many Muslims as he could as an example to others and then produces a "Why and How to manual" I agree  with the Censor.


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## bellenuit (24 March 2019)

basilio said:


> I think that is the basis on which the booklet is banned. Given that the murderer decided to kill as many Muslims as he could as an example to others and then produces a "Why and How to manual" I agree  with the Censor.




Not having read the manifesto and having no interest in doing so, I would still guess that the parts urging violence are just a small part of it. Most, again I would guess, would probably relate to his conspiratorial obsession to Muslim immigration.

On the basis that the Quran is certainly more violent and specifically advocates violence against others (whether that is rejected by many Muslims or not), would you advocate it being censored too?


----------



## basilio (24 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> Not having read the manifesto and having no interest in doing so, I would still guess that the parts urging violence are just a small part of it. Most, again I would guess, would probably relate to his conspiratorial obsession to Muslim immigration.
> 
> On the basis that the Quran is certainly more violent and specifically advocates violence against others (whether that is rejected by many Muslims or not), would you advocate it being censored too?




*???  *You havn't read the "Manifesto" (neither have I) . It was specifically written to encourage people to rise and kills Muslims because they are "replacing the White race".

The Quran is the holy book of  Muslims. I havn't read that either and I suspect neither have you in total  Bellenuit. I guess you have read or been directed to some passages that might or might not be in the Quran and are violent. I'm sure if I wanted to I could find some similar passages in The Bible.

However I don't believe either The Bible or The Quran were written to justify mass murder ; but I'm sure they  can be interpreted that one if one wants to.


----------



## bellenuit (24 March 2019)

basilio said:


> *???  *You havn't read the "Manifesto" (neither have I) . It was specifically written to encourage people to rise and kills Muslims because they are "replacing the White race".
> 
> The Quran is the holy book of  Muslims. I havn't read that either and I suspect neither have you in total  Bellenuit. I guess you have read or been directed to some passages that might or might not be in the Quran and are violent. I'm sure if I wanted to I could find some similar passages in The Bible.
> 
> However I don't believe either The Bible or The Quran were written to justify mass murder ; but I'm sure they  can be interpreted that one if one wants to.




There are passages in the Quran that are not just violent in their description of violent acts, but specifically urge Muslims to kill others. Apostates for example and homosexuals for instance. This is not denied by Muslims, but most, at least those in the West, do not act on it. Should the Quron be banned on  that basis.


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## basilio (24 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> There are passages in the Quran that are not just violent in their description of violent acts, but specifically urge Muslims to kill others. Apostates for example and homosexuals for instance. This is not denied by Muslims, but most, at least those in the West, do not act on it. Should the Quron be banned on  that basis.




Nup. Unless you want ban The Bible because you can find similar references there. Slavery, child sacrifice.
In my mind the issue is not The Quron as such.  You alluded to that it in your response. The issue is  societies that use The Quron to allow killing of homosexuals etc.


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## bellenuit (24 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Nup. Unless you want ban The Bible because you can find similar references there. Slavery, child sacrifice.
> In my mind the issue is not The Quron as such.  You alluded to that it in your response. The issue is  societies that use The Quron to allow killing of homosexuals etc.




But that is the point I am making. The Quran (and/or Hadith) advocates death to apostates. It is law in many Islamic States. The Manifesto that has been banned and, rightly so according to you and most likely according to me if I view it the same as the censor, _is deliberately constructed to inspire further murder and terrorism_.

We don't say the Manifesto shouldn't be banned because most people who read it will pay no heed to it. It may inspire a few. The same goes for the Quran. It is likely to inspire some to kill apostates and blasphemers and that applies here in Australia too (it is already implement in most Islamic States).

I would also ban the Bible or at least a version that includes exhortations to violence. Those Islamic leaders that acknowledge that the Quran has exhortations to do good and exhortations to do bad should remove the bad exhortations. I'm not talking about historical stories that describes atrocities that may be in both the Bible or Quran, but actual exhortations to do violence or kill injure fellow humans. An exhortation to violence is an exhortation to violence no matter where it is read or spoken.

This is Sydney. These people are not confining their Quran inspired hatred to just overseas:











The Pew research results that were published a few weeks ago show the relatively high percentage of Muslims in Islamic States that subscribe to the worst aspects of Islam. People with that mindset don't just change their attitude because they move here.

Here are some images from the West (the first is from the UK). Don't tell me that they will not be inspired by evil exhortations in the Quran:


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## bellenuit (24 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> The Quran (and/or Hadith) advocates death to apostates. It is law in many Islamic States.




Asia Bibi is the Pakistani Christian who was sentenced to death for blasphemy (bringing water to Muslims - I think the fact that she touched the container). Her lawyer can't even condemn the law that wanted her put to death.


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## bellenuit (24 March 2019)

This guy actually lives in the UK.

About the only saving grace is that he seems to think that applying the exhortations of the Quran or Hadith should only apply in Islamic States. It is worth a listen.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/sharia-law-supporting-caller-maajid-nawaz-isis/


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## bellenuit (24 March 2019)

What I find most annoying and insulting is the glib attitudes to many on the left who refer to this thread  as an anti-muslim thread. I would estimate that apart from a few exceptions, the vast majority of posts here are simply pointing out the actual evil committed in the name of Islam in vast swathes of the world.

The people being oppressed in these Islamic States are Muslims themselves and things will never change there if attention is not brought to bear on what is going on. But it seems and is obvious the Left doesn't give a rat's a*** about their oppression. Only the evils of the West are of concern to them. In fact the Left actively tries to suppress articles and speeches by  people who want to expose what is happening. I showed a video last week about an ex-muslim lady being shouted down at a university. Another ex-muslim lady, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, requires body guards to protect her when she speaks.

Although I regard myself as centre or left of centre, the hypocrisy of the Left is appalling. Crocodile tears by the bucket load.


----------



## DB008 (24 March 2019)

Bellenuit - this is exactly what l was trying to get at. Politicians are too scared to go near this topic (proper Q&A - Hitchens and Dawkins are the only ones who challenged intellectually this process at all) and are sidelined by people like Waleed Aly. If they reply in any way that isn't in agreement, they are branded a racist


----------



## IFocus (24 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes I found Adern's response in terms of the headscarf uneccesarilly tokenistic and shallow.
> 
> If a Muslim nutcase murdered people on a beach would all the Muslim women walk around in bikinis ?
> 
> We are who we are and we should celebrate diversity.




I think the hard heads in NZ security would have asked for Aderns response to try negative radicalism internal and try to buffer against the reprisal which will come.

This is what PMs do to protect their people.


----------



## explod (24 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> What I find most annoying and insulting is the glib attitudes to many on the left who refer to this thread  as an anti-muslim thread. I would estimate that apart from a few exceptions, the vast majority of posts here are simply pointing out the actual evil committed in the name of Islam in vast swathes of the world.
> 
> The people being oppressed in these Islamic States are Muslims themselves and things will never change there if attention is not brought to bear on what is going on. But it seems and is obvious the Left doesn't give a rat's a*** about their oppression. Only the evils of the West are of concern to them. In fact the Left actively tries to suppress articles and speeches by  people who want to expose what is happening. I showed a video last week about an ex-muslim lady being shouted down at a university. Another ex-muslim lady, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, requires body guards to protect her when she speaks.
> 
> Although I regard myself as centre or left of centre, the hypocrisy of the Left is appalling. Crocodile tears by the bucket load.




I do not disagree with you.  But meeting head on is no answer.  If anything is going to change for the better we need to live in harmony and strive to provide better pathways for other cultures to follow.

Not all but many of these peoples live in abject poverty and they have little opportunities for a rounded education to shed light on other cultures and ideas.  When you have mega millionaires like Gina Rinehart as one example, who does not really need more than a nice house and 1 hundred thousand a year to live on her excess  and that of so many others could properly clothe, shelter and feed most of our poor.  With these better conditions and education they would come on board to control birth rates and so many other good things.  Building walls and barriers is just not going to work soon anywhere.

And left right or centre, how can we paint anyone really, there are just too many variations in or respective lives.

And DB008, Richard Dawkins is on the absolute top of my list as a sociological thinker.


----------



## bellenuit (24 March 2019)

explod said:


> I do not disagree with you.  But meeting head on is no answer.  If anything is going to change for the better we need to live in harmony and strive to provide better pathways for other cultures to follow.
> 
> Not all but many of these peoples live in abject poverty and they have little opportunities for a rounded education to shed light on other cultures and ideas.




Yes, education is probably the key, particularly the education of women, that is why Malala Yousafzai was so reviled by Pakistan's Islamic leaders.

I am not advocating a head on attack against those aspects of Islam that are evil. But sweeping them under the carpet is not the way to go and sometimes even token gestures of support for aspects of Islam can be used to further oppress Muslims in Islamic States. I am in two minds about Jacinda Ardern donning the hijab and other NZ women wearing headscarves as a mark of respect for the Muslim victims. I believe she and they are sincere, but there are other ways it could have been done other than using a symbol that has another meaning to many Muslims namely as a symbol of repression.

Those of you who follow events in the Islamic world might be aware that just a few weeks ago, an Iranian Lawyer, Nasrin Sotoudeh was sentenced to 38 years in prison and 148 lashes for defending women there who removed their hijab in public.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3fbf778116ef

This is a tweet by one of the women defended by Nasrin. Note how marches by Western women wearing hijabs are used by Iranian authorities to prove their strict rules are right. I am sure that the constant battering by the Left of those who point out Islam's flaws by labelling them Islamaphobic is also used by many Islamic leaders as proof they are being unjustly attacked.


----------



## explod (24 March 2019)

"bellenuit, ...I am sure that the constant battering by the Left of those who point out Islam's flaws by labelling them Islamaphobic is also used by many Islamic leaders as proof they are being unjustly attacked..."

By the left, not sure that I understand, in my view the battering would be from the right, have I missed something


----------



## bellenuit (24 March 2019)

explod said:


> "bellenuit, ...I am sure that the constant battering by the Left of those who point out Islam's flaws by labelling them Islamaphobic is also used by many Islamic leaders as proof they are being unjustly attacked..."
> 
> By the left, not sure that I understand, in my view the battering would be from the right, have I missed something




I think you might have. Those who strongly promote the idea that criticism of Islam is Islamaphobic are newspapers like The Guardian and (over here) TV channels like the ABC and to a certain extent SBS. Even though a lot of those wrongly accused of Islamaphobia are probably centre or even left of centre, almost all who use the term to stifle genuine debate are on the left.

There is genuine Islamaphobia and it is rife and I would have no issue with agreeing that genuine Islamaphobia is largely confined to the Right side of politics. But the term is also used to obfuscate the debate by conflating criticism of Islam with hatred of Muslims and this is where the Left, in my opinion, is guilty.


----------



## lindsayf (25 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> I think you might have. Those who strongly promote the idea that criticism of Islam is Islamaphobic are newspapers like The Guardian and (over here) TV channels like the ABC and to a certain extent SBS. Even though a lot of those wrongly accused of Islamaphobia are probably centre or even left of centre, almost all who use the term to stifle genuine debate are on the left.
> 
> There is genuine Islamaphobia and it is rife and I would have no issue with agreeing that genuine Islamaphobia is largely confined to the Right side of politics. But the term is also used to obfuscate the debate by conflating criticism of Islam with hatred of Muslims and this is where the Left, in my opinion, is guilty.



Thanks for your ongoing thoughtful and reasoned disussion on this topic.  It has become impossible to have these discussions in most corners of our society without being branded ‘islamaphobe’ or some other discussion killing response. Few voices now are heard / able to be heard from this perspective. Missing Christopher Hitchens.


----------



## explod (25 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> Those of you who follow events in the Islamic world might be aware that just a few weeks ago, an Iranian Lawyer, Nasrin Sotoudeh was sentenced to 38 years in prison and 148 lashes for defending women there who removed their hijab in public.



Interesting, I first learnt of this from the Guardian, and agree absolutely, it's dreadful, I have signed the WW petition for his release.  Again it's hard to seperate left and right between us here in Australia.  One of my best friends is a Liberal and we discuss politics (more life issues) a lot.


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 March 2019)

Why are people that aren't directly affected by the Islamic way of life so concerned. Is the concern genuine or just band-wagoning?


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 March 2019)

Another point that is overlooked regarding the integration into host society is the mating aspect. Is an Australian male allowed to mate and remain a non believer?


----------



## bellenuit (25 March 2019)

Wysiwyg said:


> Why are people that aren't directly affected by the Islamic way of life so concerned. Is the concern genuine or just band-wagoning?




Because some care about fellow humans.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 March 2019)

Wysiwyg said:


> Why are people that aren't directly affected by the Islamic way of life so concerned. Is the concern genuine or just band-wagoning?




Because Islam is like a creeping ivy, let it go too far and it will take over.

Some of them have no respect for democracy they just want their own way, eg ISIS. There is no telling how many secret supporters they have in this country and if they get too big the moderate Muslims will protect them for fear of being branded infidels and severely punished.

If you think that is paranoid, Britain , France, Belgium and other European countries are now going through the first pangs of an Islamic revolution. We had better keep an eye on what is happening there and learn from it.


----------



## Macquack (25 March 2019)

Wysiwyg said:


> Another point that is overlooked regarding the integration into host society is the mating aspect. Is an Australian male allowed to mate and remain a non believer?



I am happy for you to religion bash as long as you include all religions in your criticism.

In point, an Australian male is not allowed to marry a catholic woman in a catholic church and remain a non believer.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 March 2019)

Macquack said:


> In point, an Australian male is not allowed to marry a catholic woman in a catholic church and remain a non believer.




*Personal life*





Turnbull and his wife Lucy Turnbull, 2003–04 Sydney Lord Mayor, in January 2012
Turnbull is married to Lucy Turnbull (née Hughes), who was the Lord Mayor of Sydney from 2003 to 2004 and has held a number of other prominent positions. The couple were married on 22 March 1980 at Cumnor, Oxfordshire, by a Church of England priest while Turnbull was attending the University of Oxford.[140] They live in the eastern suburbs of Sydney.[141]

Turnbull and Lucy have two adult children, Alex and Daisy, and as of July 2016, three grandchildren.[141][142] Alex Turnbull is married to Yvonne Wang of Chinese descent.[143][144]

The use of Bligh as a male middle name is a tradition in the Turnbull family. It is also Turnbull's son's middle name. One of Turnbull's ancestors was colonist John Turnbull, who named his youngest son William Bligh Turnbull in honour of deposed Governor William Bligh at the time of the Rum Rebellion.[145]

*Religion*
Raised Presbyterian, Turnbull became agnostic in the beginning of his adult life and later converted to Roman Catholicism "by mid-2002"; his wife's family is Roman Catholic.[146][147] However, he has found himself at odds with the church's teaching on abortion, stem cell research and same-sex marriage.[148][149] Turnbull supported legislation relaxing restrictions on abortion pill RU486 and he also voted for the legalisation of somatic cell nuclear transfer.[150][151][152] He did so despite the vocal public opposition to both proposals by Cardinal George Pell, the then-Archbishop of Sydney.[153][154]


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Because Islam is like a creeping ivy, let it go too far and it will take over.



I don't think it will take over but it will definitely establish its boundaries in the host country. Inside those boundaries being a completely different way of life.


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> Because some care about fellow humans.



The outlawing of human slavery was a great leap forward for humanity moving toward a civilised world. Could religion also make the leap forward with a new sweeping modern day civilised interpretation? We have seen the worst extreme interpretation, is there an interpretation at the other end of the scale?


----------



## explod (25 March 2019)

Wysiwyg said:


> Why are people that aren't directly affected by the Islamic way of life so concerned. Is the concern genuine or just band-wagoning?



Because we live on the same growing smaller planet, you obviously come from somewhere else.


----------



## qldfrog (25 March 2019)

a


explod said:


> Because we live on the same growing smaller planet, you obviously come from somewhere else.



And because islam affect you directly  even if a non muslim: separate sex public swimming pool or no more pork at the cantine for example if living in some part of secular europe
I call this the green plague, maybe the result of only a fraction of the muslims, the fanatics, but they quickly take over and the majority of muslims just join in to avoid trouble and by solidarity


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (25 March 2019)

As I started this thread and am now mainly a watcher rather than a participant in topics particularly General Chat it is good to see that this thread still continues.

For the present participants a look back at the original posts and subsequent posts may be useful.

gg


----------



## Macquack (25 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> *Personal life*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's your point SirRumpole, Mal and Lucy were married in a Church of England Parish not a Catholic Church.


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 March 2019)

explod said:


> Because we live on the same growing smaller planet, you obviously come from somewhere else.



Well, no I don't come from somewhere else and a genuine accurate reason to the question I posed would suffice.


----------



## Miss Hale (25 March 2019)

Macquack said:


> I am happy for you to religion bash as long as you include all religions in your criticism.
> 
> In point, an Australian male is not allowed to marry a catholic woman in a catholic church and remain a non believer.




Nope. My husband and I were married in a Catholic church and he wasn't a Catholic.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 March 2019)

Macquack said:


> What's your point SirRumpole, Mal and Lucy were married in a Church of England Parish not a Catholic Church.




The fact that Turnbull later converted to Catholicism indicates to me that he did it to keep his wife's family happy, and that therefore Catholicism still exerts an influence over people that don't naturally belong to their tribe. The long arm of religion as it were. 

29 countries forbid Muslim women from marrying non Muslim men, an outrageous denial of human rights.


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 March 2019)

DB008 said:


> No doubt Waleed will be pushing his agenda as usual.



He ran some integrity checks and sought agreement there is an underlying problem with anti-Islam thoughts in society.


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> 29 countries forbid Muslim women from marrying non Muslim men, an outrageous denial of human rights.



Their way of life is governed by a set of laws. Do we have the moral high ground to say those laws are wrong?


----------



## SirRumpole (25 March 2019)

Wysiwyg said:


> Their way of life is governed by a set of laws. Do we have the moral high ground to say those laws are wrong?




What do you think of beheading someone for wanting to marry someone her family didn't want her to, refusing to let women drive, flogging and imprisoning lawyers for defending someone, flogging or stoning women for being raped , forcing women to keep their faces hidden, flogging people for being homosexual......? 

So the answer to your question is YES.


----------



## Macquack (25 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> The fact that Turnbull later converted to Catholicism indicates to me that he did it to keep his wife's family happy, and that therefore Catholicism still exerts an influence over people that don't naturally belong to their tribe. The long arm of religion as it were.
> 
> 29 countries forbid Muslim women from marrying non Muslim men, an outrageous denial of human rights.



You have lost me. Catholics forbid Australian Catholic women from marrying non baptised christian men, which I think is a denial of human rights, but maybe not an outrageous denial of human rights!


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> What do you think of beheading someone for wanting to marry someone her family didn't want her to, refusing to let women drive, flogging and imprisoning lawyers for defending someone, flogging or stoning women for being raped , forcing women to keep their faces hidden, flogging people for being homosexual......?
> 
> So the answer to your question is YES.



I see your point but that part doesn't get practiced here in Australia. They are the laws of other countries.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 March 2019)

Wysiwyg said:


> They are the laws of other countries.




Some people want Sharia law in Australia.


----------



## Macquack (25 March 2019)

Miss Hale said:


> Nope. My husband and I were married in a Catholic church and he wasn't a Catholic.



I did not say that he had to be catholic, I said he had to be a believer, ie at a minimum a baptised christian. You should know this.


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Some people want Sharia law in Australia.



It is practiced by every Muslim. It is their way of life. This article is enlightening but also prises the door a little with statements such as


> In 2012, there was a Family Law Council report about: how does the Australian family law system respond to the needs of a culturally and linguistically diverse communities. That’s what it’s about.
> *How does the Australian legal system best serve the needs of its citizens? And I think that’s a fair enough question to ask*.





https://www.sbs.com.au/news/explainer-what-is-sharia-law


----------



## qldfrog (26 March 2019)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03...,-stoning-under-new-laws/10938592?pfmredir=sm
Let's us all wear a veil in support of the religion of peace


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## qldfrog (26 March 2019)

Lets not forget that in case of woman raped, she will be stoned for unmarried sex...
What a beautiful world we live in


----------



## bellenuit (26 March 2019)

Wysiwyg said:


> It is practiced by every Muslim. It is their way of life. This article is enlightening but also prises the door a little with statements such as
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/explainer-what-is-sharia-law




The problem with Sharia is that it is a wedge. You often hear Muslims say that they would like the good parts of Sharia to be implemented. That it would be an improvement to some aspects of our justice system.

However, if there are parts of Sharia that are better than our equivalent or similar laws, then they should use the processes that everyone else uses to get laws changed. Write letters and articles, try and persuade their fellow Australians and if they gain some traction, petition their MPs. Then it would become part of our legal system and you would not even need the word Sharia to describe it. That promotes social cohesion not social disintegration.

The article itself is disingenuous.

_Dr Hussain explained that while punishments do happen, they are only carried out in conservative Muslim countries, and are not representative of what Sharia law is about._

Most Muslim countries are conservative and many that aren't are under extreme pressure by hardliners to restrict freedoms to others, as in Indonesia.

_While Sharia is enshrined in the Koran and unchanging, fiqh can vary according to the situation at hand, meaning Islamic law can adapt and remain applicable to modern life._

Or can equally adapt to become oppressive again as countries slide back into hardline control, as the above post on Brunei shows. Malaysia is also becoming more hardline as is Turkey. And of course _Sharia is enshrined in the Koran and unchanging _means the hardliners in the community already have the weapon they need to push for more extreme forms of Sharia.

Muslims have the same means as anyone else to improve laws that need improving so let them do that in a socially cohesive manner. Providing a distinct legal framework outside that of fellow Australians is not the way to go. What about those in the Muslim community that don't want to live under Sharia no matter how moderate the implementation? For those who do agree to aspects of Sharia, how do we know that the agreement is voluntary and not forced upon them by pressure from other Muslims.

The feel good stuff in the article: _It’s very broad and includes ordinary ways of life, for example how you behave towards other people. Religious duties like prayer and fasting and giving to charity – which is very important,” she said. “It also includes how you behave towards other people_". Sharia Law is not required to continue with that behaviour. It is when you get to legal issues that are already enshrined in Australian Law that the problems arise, such as from the article: _commercial law, inheritance law, family law_


----------



## SirRumpole (26 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> For those who do agree to aspects of Sharia, how do we know that the agreement is voluntary and not forced upon them by pressure from other Muslims.




The trouble with Islam is that everyone is bludgeoned into obeyance by the idea that some hardliner will take it on themselves to instigate "justice" on those who step out of line.


----------



## Miss Hale (26 March 2019)

Macquack said:


> I did not say that he had to be catholic, I said he had to be a believer, ie at a minimum a baptised christian. You should know this.




The way you phrased it implied he had to be a believer in the Catholic faith.


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> The problem with Sharia is that it is a wedge. You often hear Muslims say that they would like the good parts of Sharia to be implemented. That it would be an improvement to some aspects of our justice system.
> 
> However, if there are parts of Sharia that are better than our equivalent or similar laws, then they should use the processes that everyone else uses to get laws changed. Write letters and articles, try and persuade their fellow Australians and if they gain some traction, petition their MPs. Then it would become part of our legal system and you would not even need the word Sharia to describe it. That promotes social cohesion not social disintegration.
> 
> ...



Well balanced reply Bellenuit. Definitely 'no' from me too.


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 March 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03...,-stoning-under-new-laws/10938592?pfmredir=sm
> Let's us all wear a veil in support of the religion of peace



Interesting microcosm of the control which this religious law can establish.


----------



## bellenuit (27 March 2019)

*Brunei’s New Anti LGBTQ Law Introduces Stoning and Whipping*

*https://www.vice.com/en_asia/articl...ing?utm_source=viceasiafb&utm_campaign=global*


----------



## lindsayf (28 March 2019)

Terrific to see such progressive thinking in 2019. (Sarcasm)
We primates can be so disappointing.


----------



## dutchie (28 March 2019)

lindsayf said:


> We primates can be so disappointing.



So true.
We have developed this fantastic brain and yet we don't always use it.


----------



## basilio (28 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> *Brunei’s New Anti LGBTQ Law Introduces Stoning and Whipping*
> 
> *https://www.vice.com/en_asia/articl...ing?utm_source=viceasiafb&utm_campaign=global*




That is xxxxing ugly.


----------



## dutchie (28 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> *Brunei’s New Anti LGBTQ Law Introduces Stoning and Whipping*
> 
> *https://www.vice.com/en_asia/articl...ing?utm_source=viceasiafb&utm_campaign=global*




This would make you think , yes, Islam is inherently evil (especially as this applies to non Muslims living in the country too).


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## SirRumpole (28 March 2019)

dutchie said:


> This would make you think , yes, Islam is inherently evil (especially as this applies to non Muslims living in the country too).




And also on Brunei registered aircraft.


----------



## qldfrog (28 March 2019)

Countries falling to the green plague one after the other


----------



## Sdajii (28 March 2019)

A literal terrorist gains a group of people who he literally trains to be literal terrorists. He uses war and terrorism to take over national governments. He writes a book commanding followers to use terrorism or any other means necessary to overthrow national governments and implement his law. His law requires the literal extermination of anyone who does not submit. If people die they are dead. If people join, they may not leave (the punishment for leaving is death, and this is in most cases actively enforced, and is almost always enforced in countries in which the governments have already been converted). This ideology also commands that women be subjugated, non straight people must be executed, women can be beaten and raped at men's discretion. Slavery is all good! Sex slaves? Yep, take as many as you like. People who are not part of the group are not counted as human and have zero rights. Want to marry a little girl? No problem! Don't forget to chop up her genitals first. Keep her imprisoned for the rest of her life if you consider it appropriate; she's literally your property.

Genocide? It's not only an option, but it's your duty to take part in it or at least support those who do.

Oh, and questioning or changing a single word of the doctrine is punishable by death. Criticism of it in any form is punishable by death. Again, this is firmly enforced in places where they have taken over. This means it can not change or evolve.

This entity is growing faster than any other in the world. If left unopposed, at the current rate it will literally have a critical mass of members to allow it to completely take over the world within the lifetime of children living today.

If you can't see that this is evil, there is something wrong with you. If this doesn't count as evil, it will do until something evil comes along.

Condoning this incredibly evil thing is usually done because 'not all Muslims are bad'. Yes, that's true, most of them are good people. Most Nazis were good people too. Most people, even good people, will do whatever they're told if the alternative is being tortured to death. Most people don't understand politics or religion very well. The good people of Nazi Germany often didn't understand that they were supporting something so evil - they were brainwashed using propaganda to believe their side was good and just. If we applied the same 'most of them are good people' standards to Nazism it would have taken over the world. The religion, the entity itself, is absolutely evil. If it is not opposed, it will take over the world. If it is not opposed soon, it will be too late. It is literally growing at a rate fast enough to be able to take over the entire planet within the lifetime of today's living children.

There will inevitably be a war at some point. If something like this grows, and it is growing, when it gets to the point where the critical mass of people not part of it wake up to the reality that it is going to take over the world if it is not opposed, they will either actively oppose it or join. This is just tangible reality. If that happened now, it would be eliminated. At some point, the threshold will be reached where it would take over the world. It will happen. Which way it goes will depend on when it happens.

Sadly, events like what happened in Christchurch recently will become more common. It is not the right way to deal with the situation, but when people don't deal with it in the right way, some people will snap and fight terrorism with terrorism. This will accelerate the problem, it will make both sides feel like the instigator of the terrorism is justified (somehow, many *already* do!). The correct way is to understand the situation, wake up to reality, and implement appropriate, non violent strategies which educate people and don't harm anyone who hasn't actively shown any desire to hurt anyone. Sadly, it doesn't seem people are ready to do that, so the violence will escalate, and many innocent, good people will die, and many more will suffer greatly.


----------



## basilio (29 March 2019)

Well shall we start the Crusade now  folks ? Seems as if you are all ready and geed up for a Final Solution.

If after reading Sjajii terrifying depiction of the unrelenting horror of rampant Islamic terrorism ... You get my drift.

*I do not accept this trope. *Just trotting it out as somehow "fact" and the basis upon which we then act is monstrous.  It is the basis of the Manifesto. It is the basis of a Holy War of Survival. I don't buy the last few lines of non violence . IMV they are tacked on to provide a fig leaf of coverage to an approach that is looking for a war.  

This is the ladder to hell.

*‘The Ladder Down to Hell’: How Social Media Breeds Hate Speech*
*Following the massacre of 50 people at two mosques in Christchurch, Muslims weighed in on the daily impacts of online hate and misinformation.*
https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/03/21/anti-muslim-hate-speech-rising/


----------



## Macquack (29 March 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Countries falling to the green plague one after the other



What is the "green plague"?  

Are muslims greenies?


----------



## qldfrog (29 March 2019)

Macquack said:


> What is the "green plague"?
> 
> Are muslims greenies?



green is the colour of Islam, you will see it every where Islam is taking over..a nice colour in itself but..


----------



## bellenuit (30 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> *Brunei’s New Anti LGBTQ Law Introduces Stoning and Whipping*
> 
> *https://www.vice.com/en_asia/articl...ing?utm_source=viceasiafb&utm_campaign=global*





Unfortunately I am not rich enough to boycott these hotels.

I guess George Clooney will now be labelled an Islamophobe.

*George Clooney: Boycott hotels over Brunei anti-gay death laws*

*https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...s-over-brunei-anti-gay-death-laws/3304730002/*


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## Sdajii (30 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Well shall we start the Crusade now  folks ? Seems as if you are all ready and geed up for a Final Solution.
> 
> If after reading Sjajii terrifying depiction of the unrelenting horror of rampant Islamic terrorism ... You get my drift.
> 
> *I do not accept this trope. *Just trotting it out as somehow "fact" and the basis upon which we then act is monstrous.  It is the basis of the Manifesto. It is the basis of a Holy War of Survival. I don't buy the last few lines of non violence . IMV they are tacked on to provide a fig leaf of coverage to an approach that is looking for a war.




Which part of my post is not easily verifiable fact? Whether you look at tangibly recorded secular history or the version of history according to Islam itself, Mohammad was a terrorist who lead terrorists to use terror to overthrow governments/nations and install Islam as the system of rule and belief. It is by its very nature a totalitarian system of government in the most clear and obvious sense. Every country it has taken over was previously populated by people following a less violent religion, which made them easy targets. Every. single. one. of them. The number of countries under Islamic rule is continuing to grow. At the current rate, it will indeed take over the world if not opposed. Its rate of growth is accelerating.

None of the above can be disputed in any remotely reasonable way. It is all tangible fact.

And you accuse me of trying to encourage people to start a war. This is a false accusation of hate speech and/or a call to violence. I absolutely do no such thing and you should apologise for this accusation. As I explicitly said, fighting terrorism with terrorism is not the best way to deal with the situation. In my ideal world, people would oppose it with non violent means, and as futile as this is in reality, it is still what I try to encourage people to do.

Now, the future is not as easy to predict or state with absolute certainty as is the above, but some things are very obvious. If something gets to within reach of taking over the world, at the point where a critical mass of people realise it, there will be a war or a peaceful acceptance of the new thing. This is surely obvious to any reasonable person. If something is attempting to take over, and capable of it without resistance, it is either going to take over, or resistance will stop it (or attempt to and fail). Assuming you don't want to argue with this, none of the above can be disputed.

So, there is absolutely positively no reasonable way to doubt that either Islam will take over the world peacefully (well, it's already about 1,400 years into using terrorism to take over national governments, but best case scenario, utterly unrealistic as it is, let's say all Muslims tomorrow agree to settle their differences, and all people peacefully submit to Islam and convert), or, there is some resistance which either fails or succeeds.

It doesn't take a genius to see that sadly, world conflicts involving world governments, huge amounts of power, religious ideologies (especially ones which explicitly command the use of war and terrorism as tools!) generally (well, always) involve the use of violence and war rather than peaceful discussion and people coming to calm, rational agreements. I wish people would do this, I encourage people to go for the peaceful option, which is to oppose any terrorist organisation of any type in a non violent way, and to the greatest possible non violent extent, encourage all people to abandon any form of terrorist ideology. This is the only possible way to prevent the otherwise inevitable upcoming war, which will be bigger than any previously seen on this planet.

Sadly, I see effectively no hope in this succeeding, and I thus the war is inevitable. I dislike use of violence such as the Christchurch attack, because it gives legitimacy to the instigator of the terrorism. Both sides are now seen as terrorists, guilty, violent, and so, very clearly and obviously, it will radicalise more Muslims (that is, make them feel that it is time to do their duty exactly as commanded in their religion - it is the religion that is the extreme, radical thing, it is the religion which needs to be opposed, I don't call for the killing of people as you so disgustingly stated; killing innocent or naive people is exactly what I am opposed to, which is why I'm opposed to a doctrine which commands people to do it!).

If people will not take a peaceful but firm opposition to a terrorist movement, then it will grow, and the more it grows, the worse the war will be when people outside of it finally realise it is necessary to take action. This happens to all terrorist movements eventually, and the more that terrorist movement grows before it is opposed, the worse it gets when the crunch finally comes. This is by far the largest terrorist movement the planet has ever seen.



> This is the ladder to hell.
> 
> *‘The Ladder Down to Hell’: How Social Media Breeds Hate Speech*
> *Following the massacre of 50 people at two mosques in Christchurch, Muslims weighed in on the daily impacts of online hate and misinformation.*
> https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/03/21/anti-muslim-hate-speech-rising/




Snopes is now well known to be an extreme leftist disingenuous propaganda site which consistently lies.

It is incredible that while large scale Muslim terrorist attacks are as routinely ignored as they routinely occur, the media paints a story opposite to reality. None of the many which have occurred since and shortly before Christchurch get any media time, social or mainstream, but the one the other way gets turned into a massive story and painted as though it's the big thing we need to be worried out, and still, the media doing this tells us that Islamic terrorism is the thing being blown out of proportion, while simultaneously doing the exact opposite!

Sure, they are absolutely correct to say this act of terrorism was as bad as it was, but by making it a big story while ignoring the big picture they are fueling terrorism on both sides (and one can only assume deliberately so). Naturally, the Christchurch attack was always going to inspire counter terrorism from the original instigators of the issue. It was bad for this reason (in addition to just simply being a terrible thing to do in and of itself). Publicising it will obviously encourage counter attacks, again, this is obvious. Not publicising all of the many routine attacks on the other side will also encourage more attacks against Muslims.

One could dismiss this as simply being for the sake of ratings, but since the mainstream media is owned and controlled by the government, and these days it doesn't even pretend otherwise, that clearly isn't the case; it is to suit an agenda, and no remotely intelligent person needs those dots to be put together for them. But I suppose remotely intelligent people are pretty rare these days; most folks just blindly believe what the media tells them, despite generations saying you can't believe what the media says.

By all means, point out anything which you believe isn't accurate, but don't just say 'Oh, that's just scare mongering and you're encouraging people to be violent'. At least try to be a reasonable person carrying out a proper adult conversation, use some critical thinking rather than just unconditionally rejecting anything which doesn't fit the mainstream narrative, and there may be some productive results.


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## basilio (30 March 2019)

Sdajii said:


> Snopes is now well known to be an extreme leftist disingenuous propaganda site which consistently lies.




Says it all doesn't it Sdajii ? When you libel Snopes or Truthorfiction as an extreme leftist disingenuous propaganda site you are just demonstrating why little you say on this topic can be believed.

Snopes/Truthfiction exist to expose the urban legends, fakes, misinformation, lies and poisonous tropes endlessly created and circulated around the net. When you libel them as you have it is clear it is your information that is being held to account. Yes they are hated by the Trumps of this world who believe that just because they say something it has to be taken seriously. The fact is they investigate these stories thoroughly  and show where and how errors, misinformation or outright lies have been told. 

I identified the story about the other Muslim attacks as one that warranted further investigation. As usual the reality is a long way from the presentations of Breitbart or similar organisation.

Your depiction of Islam marching its way to world domination is as inflammatory as it's wrong. It is the core statement of the right wing terrorists groups attempting to radicialise people into the behaviors we saw in Christchurch. Being echoed  here on ASF is  not a good look Sdajii.

https://www.truthorfiction.com/were-70-christians-massacred-by-muslims-in-march-2019/


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Your depiction of Islam marching its way to world domination is as inflammatory as it's wrong. It is the core statement of the right wing terrorists groups attempting to radicialise people into the behaviors we saw in Christchurch. Being echoed here on ASF is not a good look Sdajii.




I disagree bas.

The hardening of Islamic republics has been obvious for years. Turkey used to be a modern progressive country, now it's becoming a hard line Islamic country. Brunei is bringing in harsh Sharia law. Even so called 'moderate' Islamic countries still flog homosexuals and repress women. 

Is criticism of these things "hate speech" ? I'd like your opinion on that.

Why don't you post true stories that reflect badly on Islam ? An overdose of PC ?


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## lindsayf (30 March 2019)

bellenuit said:


> Unfortunately I am not rich enough to boycott these hotels.
> 
> I guess George Clooney will now be labelled an Islamophobe.
> 
> ...




I wait with interest to see how the far left can defend the actions of the Brunei Islamic rulers.
It would certainly be extremely enlightening to witness the attempt as it would show so clearly how profound the blind spot and moral confusion has become.
The more likely response will be to look the other way....which is just as destructive probably.


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## Sdajii (30 March 2019)

basilio said:


> Says it all doesn't it Sdajii ? When you libel Snopes or Truthorfiction as an extreme leftist disingenuous propaganda site you are just demonstrating why little you say on this topic can be believed.
> 
> Snopes/Truthfiction exist to expose the urban legends, fakes, misinformation, lies and poisonous tropes endlessly created and circulated around the net. When you libel them as you have it is clear it is your information that is being held to account. Yes they are hated by the Trumps of this world who believe that just because they say something it has to be taken seriously. The fact is they investigate these stories thoroughly  and show where and how errors, misinformation or outright lies have been told.




When you say this about Snopes you demonstrate you have no idea what you're talking about. Snopes has repeatedly, for years, been shown very clearly to lie, consistently in completely left-biased ways. Its ostensible purpose is not the same as its true one.



> I identified the story about the other Muslim attacks as one that warranted further investigation. As usual the reality is a long way from the presentations of Breitbart or similar organisation.




You say that like it's two or three on one side and one on the other, ignoring the fact that on one side it's literally a routine event where things like villages of Christians being completely wiped out is pretty normal, and goes unreported. Literally, for 1,400 years, terrorism and literal genocide have been used to 
take over countries/governments, and this process literally continues to this day. In fact, right now, genocide is being carried out by a Muslim government which is sponsored by Australia, right on Australia's doorstep, and the media says nothing. There are examples of it all over the world. Literally every. single. one. of the Islamic countries today involved terrorism to convert the people. Literally every single one of them, and the pattern is only increasing. This is a clear, tangible, easily observed fact!



> Your depiction of Islam marching its way to world domination is as inflammatory as it's wrong. It is the core statement of the right wing terrorists groups attempting to radicialise people into the behaviors we saw in Christchurch. Being echoed  here on ASF is  not a good look Sdajii.




How is it wrong? It literally started around 1,400 years ago with one man, and through the use of terrorism, war and genocide, has overthrown many world governments. It is growing at an accelerating rate, has already taken around 22% of the world's population with over a quarter of all countries in the world having a Muslim majority. The number of people being killed, tortured and enslaved by it continues to rise. The trend is rapidly accelerating. It expressly states world domination through the use of war, terrorism and genocide (as well as lies and deception) as the mission statement. These are all literal, easily observed facts. How can you say it is not marching towards world domination?

I am not wanting to radicalise people, I am literally trying to do the opposite! A movement which has already taken around a quarter of the world's countries and is rapidly expanding and expressly states that terrorism is to be used to take over the world is itself clearly going to radicalise people if left unopposed through good means. I am saying (probably completely in vain) that people should take the only available alternative to the path to the one which will lead to the huge inevitable wars. You are trying to prevent that, which is exactly what will cause the violence, as we tangibly see increasing in the world today, because your ideas are so common. You are literally condoning a terrorist organisation, and somehow can't see that doing so will increase the amount of violence and terrorism in the world!




> https://www.truthorfiction.com/were-70-christians-massacred-by-muslims-in-march-2019/




Good grief, you are picking out a report of one single incidence of Muslims killing Christians which isn't entirely true. You do this as though such attacks aren't routinely happening all over the world!

I literally grew up in a community of people, all of whom had had friends and most of whom had had family members tortured to death by Muslims, supported by the government, for the crime of not wanting to be Muslim. Ironically, that community taught me that Islam is a good religion, which shows how much people's minds can be warped. This sort of thing goes on routinely all around the world. If one report gets it wrong, it doesn't change the big picture.

Even with my background, I was surprised when I first visited a Muslim country (Malaysia, a supposedly moderate Muslim country, and relative to the big picture, it is moderate) and learned that even there, if a Muslim wants to leave the religion, they will be killed as per standard policy. Many people are forced into converting to Islam there (including every child born into it) but to leave is punishable by death. They still claim and are officially recognised as having religious freedom! Most people don't go beyond official stories and narratives, and just believe the lies and misrepresentations.

Incidentally, if I wanted a violent response and cared about nothing else, I would pretend to believe exactly what you do, because it is exactly what will cause it. Sadly, it seems inevitable that you'll get your way and the result with be the biggest ever bloodbath.

I really wish everyone would learn about the history, read the Koran and look at the current situation. The picture is very clear. A peaceful solution is probably already impossible, but it gets less and less possible all the time, and the only way it can happen is if people understand the situation and understand the urgency to address it in a peaceful way, because the further along things get, the less possible a peaceful solution is. If people refuse to address it peacefully now, which requires them to genuinely learn about the reality of the situation, the war is inevitable. Sadly, most people will not learn any more than what the leftist media tells them, what the leftist propaganda sites like Snopes tell them, and the war they are pushing for will become a reality.


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## IFocus (30 March 2019)

lindsayf said:


> I wait with interest to see how the far left can defend the actions of the Brunei Islamic rulers.
> It would certainly be extremely enlightening to witness the attempt as it would show so clearly how profound the blind spot and moral confusion has become.
> The more likely response will be to look the other way....which is just as destructive probably.




Those bleeding hearts lefties at the Human rights organisations have been calling out Brunei move to repressive order for some time you may have missed it as they do for other Islamic authoritarian dictatorships at great personal risk / cost.


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2019)

On the other side, the speech by the Muslim  gentleman who lost his wife in the CC massacre forgiving the gunman was a class act that we should take some heart from in relation to Islam.


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## Sdajii (30 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> On the other side, the speech by the Muslim  gentleman who lost his wife in the CC massacre forgiving the gunman was a class act that we should take some heart from in relation to Islam.




That was lip service, clearly. If you can't see that was strategic virtue signaling there is something wrong with you. And whether or not you want to think it was genuinely heartfelt, it is completely counterproductive and inappropriate. What the gunman did was wrong, it was bad, we should not forgive him. No one really wants to forgive him. The act itself was bad and far worse still it will cause more conflict. Either side forgiving such people causes more harm than good. To most regular people who don't bother seeing any deeper or thinking any further than 'Oh, how sweet, how brave, how inspiring' it seems beautiful, but most regular people aren't the ones who are going to pick up guns or strap explosives to themselves. Probably no one here will (but hey, apparently some years ago this gunman was a friend posting among us here! Gee, who knows? It's a disturbing thought!)... actually, the more I think about it, such people could be anywhere, as this very example demonstrates.

Terrorists attacking innocent people should not be forgiven. Sheep are easy prey. He should not be forgiving this terrorist, he should be speaking out about the terrorists on his own side, clearly and unabiguously disavowing them, saying that he will never condone terrorism or anything which promotes or condones it, realising his own religion does exactly that, and leaving it. Anyone seen as being on the Christchurch gunman's side, whether or not it is valid, should say they do not condone what he did. I must admit, several of the people I have spoken to (not all of them white or Christian, including the one who by far spoke in admiration of the Christchurch terrorist) are on the side of this guy. I have a friend who is a soldier frequently assigned as a peacekeeper in a region where Muslim terror attacks are common (he is neither white, western nor Christian) who only has positive things to say about the guy. People on the ground exposed to the reality very often sympathise with it. They see the reality of the problem, they can't see regular people doing anything about it, and many people only understand violence being an answer. When regular people like majority of us here on this forum won't take a peaceful stand for what is right, violence is inevitable. 'Forgiving' someone for an act like this should not be encouraged. I don't forgive the people who tortured friends and family of my friends to death. I don't forgive the Christchurch terrorist. No one should. I stand in peaceful but firm opposition to them in the desperate hope that others will follow, which is the only possible way that people more prone to violence won't end up turning it into a war, which may very well force regular people like us to either lay down and die (as very many people only one degree of separation from myself have done, and a few I have personally known have come to) or literally fight for their lives.

When I lived in Australia, before spending much time outside of that little bubble, I didn't realise how prone to unexpected violence the world is. Australians in particular think any mention of it is scaremongering etc, because they think they are safe. Almost no war activity has ever come to the shores of Australia, ever, and conscription hasn't been seen for generations and is seen as something from long ago with a return unthinkable. The near future is really going to catch a lot of people in Australia off guard, but will me much less of a surprise to most people in the world.


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## SirRumpole (30 March 2019)

Sdajii said:


> Terrorists attacking innocent people should not be forgiven.




He will be in prison for the rest of his life, that's societal retribution.

How individual victims react is a matter for them.

I see forgiveness by a victim preferable to stirring up passions and provoking revenge attacks which is a real possibility if the situation escalates.


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## Sdajii (30 March 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> How individual victims react is a matter for them.




Indeed. And whether or not a man wants to take a gun and kill a number innocent people is also a matter for him.

We all have choices, that doesn't make them all good, okay, equally valid, acceptable or anything else.



> I see forgiveness by a victim preferable to stirring up passions and provoking revenge attacks which is a real possibility if the situation escalates.




You say that as though they are the only two options!


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## Macquack (30 March 2019)

Sdajii said:


> That was lip service, clearly. If you can't see that was strategic virtue signaling there is something wrong with you. And whether or not you want to think it was genuinely heartfelt, it is completely counterproductive and inappropriate.




Totally disagree, the speech was made at the National Remembrance Service and the guy was a victim that survived the Massacre.


Sdajii said:


> I must admit, several of the people I have spoken to (not all of them white or Christian, including the one who by far spoke in admiration of the Christchurch terrorist) are on the side of this guy. I have a friend who is a soldier frequently assigned as a peacekeeper in a region where Muslim terror attacks are common (he is neither white, western nor Christian) who only has positive things to say about the guy.



 You need a new circle of friends.


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## Sdajii (30 March 2019)

Macquack said:


> Totally disagree, the speech was made at the National Remembrance Service and the guy was a victim that survived the Massacre.




I'll agree to disagree.



> You need a new circle of friends.




Wow, so all of my friends need to have the same political opinions as yourself, and if I have any who disagree you'll say I should cut contact with them and live in an echo chamber? It makes sense that you have such a narrow and naive view!

I embrace having as wide as possible a selection of people I call friends, including people I completely disagree with. Your attitude is as pathetic as it is destructive. I regularly hang out with groups of people including 5-10 different nationalities in the same conversation (I've been non stop travelling for about 5 years and frequently end up in such groups, which is one of the most appealing aspects of travelling to me). I hugely value the constant access I have to such a wide variety of views from so many different backgrounds. How small of you to say I should refine it down and cut the majority of my interaction with humanity out!


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## IFocus (30 March 2019)

To reach a state of forgiveness / acceptance is to reach a state of mind to carry on and live a life to its full potential.

Revenge, anger, hate is a sure way to be a tortured soul with no direction.


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## qldfrog (31 March 2019)

IFocus said:


> .
> 
> Revenge, anger, hate is a sure way to be a tortured soul with no direction.



While i agree on the tortured soul part, i do believe, and from past experience that you are definitively with a direction
Revenge
There is nothing more focusing and so purpose giving than hate and revenge
To each his own..but while hate and revenge can not make you happy, they can motivate you to a VERY high focus


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## Sdajii (31 March 2019)

IFocus said:


> To reach a state of forgiveness / acceptance is to reach a state of mind to carry on and live a life to its full potential.
> 
> Revenge, anger, hate is a sure way to be a tortured soul with no direction.




If you can not avoid being angry, vengeful, hateful or tortured without forgiving someone there is something wrong with you, you are emotionally inept.

If we all forgave this man he would be free to walk away. I do not believe he deserves forgiveness, I don't believe that any terrorist deserves it. That does not mean I am full of hate, I am not really angry (though I probably would be if it had recently happened to someone I was close to), I am certainly not vengeful, I am not tortured, but I don't forgive this guy and can see that no one should; this was an unforgivable crime as long as he has not shown remorse for it or done anything to make up for it, which in this case may be impossible anyway.

It is sad that people see forgiveness as the only alternative to enraged, irrational hatred, and shows their destructively limited grasp on their emotions.

There is a clear and growing problem in this world which needs to be addressed. Forgiveness is not the answer, that just allows it to continue and enrages some of the more unstable folks on one or both sides. Getting whipped up into an irrational frenzy as you seem to think is the only alternative is also not the answer. A calm, rational, genuinely educated (not just blindly believing propaganda), intelligent, peaceful response is required. While there are bad people doing bad things, forgiveness is, unfortunately, premature.

But I don't expect you to understand this, you are, by your own description, an argumentative galah.


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## wayneL (2 April 2019)




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## basilio (2 April 2019)

Well I suppose if Wayne has found it on the net and it trashes Islam it has to be right.


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## Sdajii (2 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Well I suppose if Wayne has found it on the net and it trashes Islam it has to be right.




Can you say anything at all in it which you think is incorrect? Or do you just want to find an excuse to ignore it and encourage others to do the same, and you're so desperate that you'll use the excuse that it was on the internet to dismiss it?

Being on the internet is not any sort of evidence that something is true, but it is also not evidence that it has not. You have made a completely absurd attempt to dismiss something based simply on it being online, without even attempting to address a single thing in it.

If you did manage to find anything incorrect in it you would have to look very hard and cherry pick something trivial, if there was anything at all, but the vast majority of it is clearly genuine fact or his reasonable opinion which in all cases was directly being related to clear facts he was stating. I couldn't find anything untrue in it, and it is loaded with facts which should be completely alarming to all good people. 

It is literally the fastest growing faction in the world, which literally commands people to kill innocent people, as well as various things like giving men the right to bash their wives at their own discretion and forbidding anyone from questioning a man bashing his wife under any circumstances. It literally seeks to take over the whole world, it is literally rapidly succeeding (just look at the actual numbers and growth rate), and once converted (or if you are born into it) the punishment to leaving is death, which is actively enforced. This is all very clearly evident, yet people put in much more effort to ignoring these facts than it would take to simply look at them.

I very strongly recommend and I would go as far as urging, even requesting, all people to actually educate themselves on this topic. Read the Koran, not just looking up a few out of context lines, but the whole thing cover to cover to see and understand the full context. Relate it to the actual history and current state of the world. Don't look at or believe the propaganda on either side, just the actual, tangible facts. If you do this you will understand what is happening and the urgency of the situation.


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## wayneL (2 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Well I suppose if Wayne has found it on the net and it trashes Islam it has to be right.



Not an argument bas.


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## bellenuit (3 April 2019)




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## DB008 (3 April 2019)

​


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## Sdajii (3 April 2019)

DB008 said:


> ​





This is all obviously nonsense, but it doesn't say anything about Islam being evil (or not evil), it's just a complete whackjob who happens to be Muslim being given a platform by some TV show which hosted by  Muslim. It doesn't relate to anything fundamentally about Islam, it doesn't even necessarily say much about Muslims as a group, it's just a couple of individual idiots.


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## bellenuit (3 April 2019)




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## bellenuit (3 April 2019)

Defend Islam, don't be an infidel. Heed the warning before watching the video.


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## SirRumpole (3 April 2019)

bellenuit said:


> Defend Islam, don't be an infidel. Heed the warning before watching the video.





Yes brothers, the religion of Peace.


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## Sdajii (3 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes brothers, the religion of Peace.




It's funny in a sad way that for 1,400 years we have seen the same pattern, starting with the founder himself. Terrorism and genocide is used, often beginning with quiet peaceful initial colonisation. Once sufficient numbers exist, steps are taken to take control of the government. From there as soon as is tactically possible, the entire population is converted or exterminated (slavery is allowed and encouraged during the conversion). Once the process is complete it is no surprise that in all cases the mentality of the mob above is the result, because you have an entire population which believes in a doctrine which demands absolute control, so obviously it gets control when everyone believes it should, and it commands that anyone who questions a single word of it must be killed. They are all so scared of being accused of not following it to the letter that they do. If anyone doesn't, in this situation it is inherently obvious a mob will form and kill the person not doing it, and in desperation to please such a violent and intolerant doctrine, people will eagerly seek out anyone who commits even the smallest transgression, and everyone will want to personally execute justice because it is their commanded duty, and if they don't do it they are condemned to Hell. They will become so desperate to find infidels that they will see them even where they do not exist, as we see an example of here. This is not unusual, this is both what you would expect from such a doctrine at its end point, and what we do see in Islamic countries which have reached that point.

We can see other countries at all stages of conversion. If we look back at the histories of countries further along we can see that when they were at the same stage of conversion, the same process occurred. It is an ongoing process which has been taking place for 1,400 years. It will not stop until people wake up. The first step is for people to understand what is happening. This will either happen because people actually bother to open their eyes and educate themselves, which if done very soon could prevent a violent outcome, or it will happen when the situation is so extreme that those remaining can't help but see it, which will result in a huge bloody war. Depending on when this happens, either side could win. At this stage it seems clear it will be the latter alternative, the bloody one, and probably Islam will lose, but either way there will be many innocent people (and a few guilty ones) dying in the process.

Currently, it seems the media's motive for presenting a ridiculously Islam-favoured bias in the news is to allow for a rapid expansion of the problem so that it can then flip. Basically, swinging the pendulum very far to engineer the swing back. Perhaps in the big picture this is the least bloody option, but it sure will be bloody if it plays out that way, which seems inevitable.


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## qldfrog (4 April 2019)

I agree got tge feeling the Christchurch massage would not have happened if islam was presented in the west for what it is, as a result, this favors kind of last man on earth seeing the truth attitude, and so desperate attempts to "save the world"
I would bet you we would see similar terrorism should climate change not be acknowledged in the media
A very interesting analogy actually..


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## basilio (4 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> It's funny in a sad way that for 1,400 years we have seen the same pattern, starting with the founder himself. Terrorism and genocide is used, often beginning with quiet peaceful initial colonisation. Once sufficient numbers exist, steps are taken to take control of the government. From there as soon as is tactically possible, the entire population is converted or exterminated (slavery is allowed and encouraged during the conversion). Once the process is complete it is no surprise that in all cases the mentality of the mob above is the result, because you have an entire population which believes in a doctrine which demands absolute control, so obviously it gets control when everyone believes it should, and it commands that anyone who questions a single word of it must be killed. They are all so scared of being accused of not following it to the letter that they do. If anyone doesn't, in this situation it is inherently obvious a mob will form and kill the person not doing it, and in desperation to please such a violent and intolerant doctrine, people will eagerly seek out anyone who commits even the smallest transgression, and everyone will want to personally execute justice because it is their commanded duty, and if they don't do it they are condemned to Hell. They will become so desperate to find infidels that they will see them even where they do not exist, as we see an example of here. This is not unusual, this is both what you would expect from such a doctrine at its end point, and what we do see in Islamic countries which have reached that point.
> 
> We can see other countries at all stages of conversion. If we look back at the histories of countries further along we can see that when they were at the same stage of conversion, the same process occurred. It is an ongoing process which has been taking place for 1,400 years. It will not stop until people wake up. The first step is for people to understand what is happening. This will either happen because people actually bother to open their eyes and educate themselves, which if done very soon could prevent a violent outcome, or it will happen when the situation is so extreme that those remaining can't help but see it, which will result in a huge bloody war. Depending on when this happens, either side could win. At this stage it seems clear it will be the latter alternative, the bloody one, and probably Islam will lose, but either way there will be many innocent people (and a few guilty ones) dying in the process.
> 
> Currently, it seems the media's motive for presenting a ridiculously Islam-favoured bias in the news is to allow for a rapid expansion of the problem so that it can then flip. Basically, swinging the pendulum very far to engineer the swing back. Perhaps in the big picture this is the least bloody option, but it sure will be bloody if it plays out that way, which seems inevitable.





Well that is a chilling story Sdajii.  Certainly won't be sleeping at night with the horror of Islamic  fanatics  taking over the world. I hope you don't suffer from the nightmares you are so busy creating.

I wonder how your story would look if we changed "Islam"  to  "The Commies" "Westbro Baptist Church"  "The Chinese " or in fact any other outgroup.


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## basilio (4 April 2019)

Where is this talk taking us ? 
First point is that  Sdajii, Qfrog et al  are well and truly on the very big bandwagon of the next Holy War. 
There are certainly some/many groups looking to establish the base line for a war that would make The Crusades look like a picnic.
Interestingly at least a couple of these sites have an overwhelmingly religious element.

Second point. What politicians  like Donald Trump say has an effect on people. 

*Flipping the Switch*
*Donald Trump Helped Turn a Christian Extremist Into an Alleged Domestic Terrorist*

Michael Hari’s story shows how our increasingly divisive, conspiracy-laden culture is pushing troubled people toward extremism and violence.
https://theintercept.com/2019/03/30/domestic-terrorism-donald-trump/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/stop-islam.html
https://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=57016
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-tommy-robinson-national-action-a8235556.html


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## bellenuit (4 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Well that is a chilling story Sdajii.  Certainly won't be sleeping at night with the horror of Islamic  fanatics  taking over the world. I hope you don't suffer from the nightmares you are so busy creating.
> 
> I wonder how your story would look if we changed "Islam"  to  "The Commies" "Westbro Baptist Church"  "The Chinese " or in fact any other outgroup.




It wouldn't work Bas. You need to read up on Islam.


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## Sdajii (4 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Well that is a chilling story Sdajii.  Certainly won't be sleeping at night with the horror of Islamic  fanatics  taking over the world. I hope you don't suffer from the nightmares you are so busy creating.
> 
> I wonder how your story would look if we changed "Islam"  to  "The Commies" "Westbro Baptist Church"  "The Chinese " or in fact any other outgroup.




The difference here is that it is a true story, not just paranoia or exaggeration. Actually, the Chinese also pose a huge threat to the world and also have a global takeover strategy, though that side of things will come to a crunch later. China will be an interesting player in the upcoming war. They will not (already do not) tolerate Islam. Islam while on its march through the part of the world I'm currently in (bouncing around Asia) was able to take over some regions easily while in others it hasn't got anywhere. China is an example. China will presumably be happy to sit back and let Islam and the west have their war, and then fill the power vacuum. Russia will be having similar thoughts.

You are speaking from a very Australian perspective, that naive frame of mind which believes war is fictional or a thing of the past or a thing of far away lands which can't affect Australia and so it basically doesn't exist. I grew up among people whose family and friends were tortured to death by Islam, so I was somewhat aware of the situation, but it didn't really hit me until I started travelling. For the last 5 years I haven't spent much time in Australia, and I've seen and learned a lot. Last week I was in a region which had been part of several different countries and kingdoms over the last few hundred years. Recently I was in another area near the border of Cambodia where the local people were telling me about the border skirmishes (just in the last few years, their own accounts, not just what they'd learned in school) with the bombs and gunfire keeping them awake at night. That's stuff you lose sleep over. The area is still volatile and it flares up from time to time, it hasn't happened while I've been there, but it could at any moment. I didn't lose sleep there either (though bombs and gunfire would certainly have kept me up). This sort of situation is common over a lot of the world and a large percentage of the population is aware of what routinely happens, but Australians have this Disney view of the world, which makes them think anyone aware of reality is somehow paranoid. Australia is a young country with close enough to zero history of war on its own territory. It is extremely unique in this way, and this is why it has perhaps the most naive population in the world when it comes to this topic.

If you think knowledge of the reality of the world should keep someone awake, you are one very, very sheltered individual. I have met plenty of people who have lived through their country being in war, not knowing if they would survive the next day, not knowing if their country would still exist next month (and in some cases their country becoming a different country). My next country will be Vietnam, where of course there was a nasty and complicated war which many of the people lived through (just one in an ongoing string of wars over more than a thousand years). Anyone much older than myself had friends and family killed in the war, when I'm in town I walk down the streets (which are now just regular city streets) where tanks rolled through and smashed through the gates of the government buildings, etc etc. Even WWII is still in living memory, I've sat and had drinks in Hiroshima with people who were in Hiroshima and remember when the bomb came, when a lot of the world got involved and the outcome could potentially have gone either way.

You are like many Australians. Willfully naive, and perfect examples of the type of character allowing the problems to occur; if we do not even acknowledge the existence of a problem, we are sure not to do anything to prevent or oppose it. Islam is far worse than Nazism (Nazism is mostly hated for the goal of exterminating the Jews, and funnily enough, that is one of Islam's expressly stated goals, even specifically naming them as an enemy of Islam which needs to be exterminated), it has become far, far larger and is far, far more powerful than Hitler's Nazism ever did. With Nazism, people woke up and did something at a far earlier stage, which means if this one comes down to a war, which it almost certainly will and if people refuse to acknowledge the issue and deal with it peacefully it certainly will, it's going to be a far bigger and bloodier war than WWII. It is so obvious it's surreal, but for many people, that will be impossible to see until... I can't even say until the first shots have been fired because they're being fired every day... so, people like you won't be able to see it until it gets to an official declaration of war.


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## Sdajii (4 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Where is this talk taking us ?
> First point is that  Sdajii, Qfrog et al  are well and truly on the very big bandwagon of the next Holy War.
> There are certainly some/many groups looking to establish the base line for a war that would make The Crusades look like a picnic.
> Interestingly at least a couple of these sites have an overwhelmingly religious element.
> ...




It's ridiculous that you would say I am on a bandwagon for a war. The war has been going on for 1,400 years. Literally the entire time, from the very beginning, from the founder himself, people have been being killed, genocide committed, and terrorism used to overthrow governments or outright exterminate the opposition. It is literally expanding at a growing rate and will soon take the whole world. You can look at it purely mathematically if you want, just look at the growth rate as a mathematical equation. Also look at the number of innocent people killed which is also growing at a mathematically calculable rate. Even in regions/nations where the process is complete, the violence remains high, it does not go down. When people are commanded to kill or be killed, many of them kill.

Incidentally, I am atheist.

I do not want war, I do not want violence. If we refuse to acknolwedge that something which universally produces violence and killing of innocent people everywhere it grows does that, it means we allow more violence and killing. Look at the reality of the regions in which the process has been complete for hundreds of years, or over a thousand. Look at the actual reality, not just the warped western media narrative. Read the Koran. Look at what is actually happening in the world. Look at the reality of the situation in any example of any stage of Islamic takeover. There is only one non violent stage in that process (which the Koran instructs people to lie during) and that's the one the mainstream media focuses on.

We western narrative has managed to convince people that the reality, despite being the actual, clearly observable reality, is a fictional story made up by fear mongers. Don't listen to propaganda from either side, just look at the actual reality of the situation. Don't focus on being in Australia and thinking you're so distanced from the rest of the world that it doesn't affect you and you're safe, look at what is happening and spreading. Look at what actually, literally, tangibly is the fastest growing demographic in the world and what it does everywhere it goes.

If there actually is a problem, what does it take to convince someone like you that there is a problem?


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## bellenuit (4 April 2019)

Sdajii. I‘m certainly not as pessimistic as you regarding the spread of Islam. I believe the ability of Islam to spread through invasion is now very limited as the contiguous Islamic states are surrounded by powerful neighbours to the West and East. 

I think the main danger to the West is more subtle. Immigration, high birth rates and constant demands for us to accomodate to their ways rather than vice versa. In spite of most Muslims being peaceful and good citizens, there is little integration, particularly in Europe. They are still under the influence of what is preached in their local mosques and the text of the Quran can easily be used to promote intolerance of their non–muslim neighbours and demands for even greater acceptance of their ways and laws, which one sees as their proportion of the population increases. Demands for Sharia are commonplace, though initially only for the *nice* things to be implemented. 

It is telling that when the refugee crisis was at its peak in Europe, Saudia Arabia‘s offer of assistance to Europe was to build mosques throughout Europe (I need to verify this but it was certainly mentioned in a few newspapers at the time). 

I think education will be the best weapon in fighting political Islam, particularly exposing the myths of their belief system. But that means they will need an environment where to be an ex–muslim is safe. Unfortunately rather than support those who have abandoned Islam for secularism, the regressive left in the West are continuing to side with the intolerant few who target ex–muslims and try to shut them down when they speak out.


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## Sdajii (4 April 2019)

bellenuit said:


> Sdajii. I‘m certainly not as pessimistic as you regarding the spread of Islam. I believe the ability of Islam to spread through invasion is now very limited as the contiguous Islamic states are surrounded by powerful neighbours to the West and East.
> 
> I think the main danger to the West is more subtle. Immigration, high birth rates and constant demands for us to accomodate to their ways rather than vice versa. In spite of most Muslims being peaceful and good citizens, there is little integration, particularly in Europe. They are still under the influence of what is preached in their local mosques.
> 
> ...




I entirely agree with pretty much everything you've said here. Military style invasion is something they are unlikely to use again, at least against western countries, because it is something which would cause the world to wake up, and at this point, a woken, aware world would be disastrous for them. They will do it through immigration, conversion and high fertility (while the mainstream narrative is to encourage people not to have children because of global overpopulation).

I 200% agree, the best strategy (at least of the non violent options) is education. Without education it will end up in unprecedented violence making anything the world has previously seen look like a picnic.

Absolutely positively, something absolutely critically needed is a safe exit for current Muslims. Absolutely, most Muslims are good people. I would love to know how many Muslims would leave if it was safe to do so, but literally most of the world's Muslims would be killed for even expressing an interest in the possibility of leaving (that alone should alarm everyone and be a call to action, and no, I don't mean violent action). Non Muslims, especially those on the right, absolutely need to welcome and protect people who choose to leave. No one should be racist, everyone should be treated as an individual. Unfortunately there are great obstacles to achieving this, which come from the left (they support Islam, which is determined to kill anyone who wants to leave), right (which is the only side currently in a position to potentially help), and Islam (actively seeking to kill anyone wanting to leave, a blatant terrorist tactic endorsed by almost all Islamic governments and the majority of the world's Muslims, although no doubt many of them would secretly not choose to enforce this if they weren't fearful for their own safety, because literally most of them would be killed if they openly said they didn't support it!). Western centrists (well, I'm left, but 'the left', the majority of people who don't identify as right, are so far left they would see me as alt right) like myself are irrelevant because we are so rare.

I grew up in a community of ex Muslims, all of whom had friends and/or family killed, and a few physically tortured into coming back to Islam (and those individuals, all I was aware of, then remained Muslim indefinitely). I am well familiar of the difficulties they face and the urgent need for the whole human race to force all world governments and all people to allow people the freedom to choose not to belong to any religion they do not wish to be part of. Most western people don't realise that literally most Muslims in the world will literally be killed if they express a desire to leave. Officially, the world recognises countries as having 'religious freedom' even if Muslims will literally be executed by the government if they choose to leave their religion!


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## basilio (4 April 2019)

One point I think that has to be made clear and reinforced in Australia is the role of Australian law and  customs.  (Unless of course Australian law and customs becomes making it illegal to be a Muslim..)

Always interesting to look at history and how we can be inflamed  against an "enemy" if there is enough  vitriol thrown around.  This was the sort of thing I was referring when I suggested one could replace "Islam" with "The Commies" " The Chinese" " Papists"  in Sajaii relentless screed on the unstoppable rise of  Islam. (Can anyone else remember when the threat of being taken over by Catholics was a serious concern? That Catholics would out breed everyone else, take their orders from the Pope and destroy civilization as we know know it ? )

*The Red Flag riots unfolded in Brisbane 100 years ago. Experts see similar 'mobilised hatred' today*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-04/red-flag-riots-and-islamaphobia-australia/10954220


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## basilio (4 April 2019)

basilio said:


> One point I think that has to be made clear and reinforced in Australia is the role of Australian law and  customs.  (Unless of course Australian law and customs becomes making it illegal to be a Muslim..)




To make what I am saying clear.
In Australia everyone has a right to follow the religion of their choice - OR NOT.
Australia doesn't welcome or accept situations where people do not have the freedom to simply not follow the religion they have been brought up in. That is what Freedom of Religion means here.

I


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## SirRumpole (4 April 2019)

basilio said:


> To make what I am saying clear.
> In Australia everyone has a right to follow the religion of their choice - OR NOT.
> Australia doesn't welcome or accept situations where people do not have the freedom to simply not follow the religion they have been brought up in. That is what Freedom of Religion means here.
> 
> I




In theory yes, but some people believe religious law overrides country law, and that's where the problem arises.

Ever heard of honour killings ?

Yes the perps go to gaol if they are caught, but they regard it as a badge of honour.


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## qldfrog (4 April 2019)

About education as the way to solve islam expansion, sure but not when education is done in Koranic school;
when you look at literacy figures for countries, always be aware on how many have been thru Koranic schools and do not know much more than basic numeracy and reciting the holy book..not much place for thinking
but who needs thinking under Islam: all the answers are in the book;
This caused Islam downfall when the industrial revolution came around, but now, you can just buy it on ebay, and the west masses are as ignorant as indoctrinated muslims
I do not believe education will help unless you ensure than muslims arelimited percentage of the population/quotas and need to integrate wo fear, then can make their own mind and adopt the belief they want.
But usually the whole neighbourhood turns into an enforced muslim enclave with de facto sharia laws
see Europe


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## explod (4 April 2019)

We’re Sorry Canada
March 31 at 8:17 AM ·


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## SirRumpole (4 April 2019)

Nuns usually become nuns of their own free will, they can leave any time.

If you happen to be born a Muslim woman you are stuck with it, unless you can sneak onto a flight to a free country away from your relatives.


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## lindsayf (4 April 2019)

basilio said:


> To make what I am saying clear.
> In Australia everyone has a right to follow the religion of their choice - OR NOT.
> Australia doesn't welcome or accept situations where people do not have the freedom to simply not follow the religion they have been brought up in. That is what Freedom of Religion means here.
> 
> I



We are not talking about rights or about what you think Australia might or should welcome or accept.
We are talking about reality on the ground.  What do you think happens to Australian apostates?
Do you think that because we are in Australia that the basic tenets of Islam become impotent?
Bas you clearly have a good critical mind..........


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06...secret-ex-muslim-network-in-australia/9811340


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## bellenuit (4 April 2019)

explod said:


> We’re Sorry Canada
> March 31 at 8:17 AM ·





It's sort of like you completely missed the point. There are comparatively few in the West that are demanding that Muslim woman not wear the hijab. There are objections to the Niqab and Burka, particularly in professions that require interaction with clients, patients, pupils etc. 

The real issue is those forced to wear such headgear without their consent. We have seen in Muslim countries like Iran that many women do not want to wear the Hijab and Chador and are oppressed (the real use of this word rather than what you are claiming happens in the West). They are imprisoned and tortured and in some countries would be killed for not doing so. We have images of Iran and Afghanistan pre- and post-Islamic takeover and they differences between what women wore then (when they were free to chose) and what they are forced to wear now is dramatic. We have also seen the scenes of women throwing away their face coverings when liberated from ISIS. There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence that many Muslim women in the West are not free to chose their clothing and are forced to comply with Islamic head-dress due to pressure by their own family or community.

The real shame is that the left in the West and the Feminist Movement in particular have completely ignored this oppression. They only see Muslim women as victims when it is Western law or customs that restrain what they can wear. But they offer zero support for those Muslim women that are really oppressed.


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## bellenuit (4 April 2019)

Pre- and post-revolution Iran












Pre- and Post Taliban Afghanistan











That is oppression. When will the Left complain about that?


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## MARKETWINNER (6 April 2019)

Still I am really confused and very sad about things happened in this word throughout the history. When one conflict or war ends, another has emerged. This is similar to economy or stock market. There is some sort of cycle. My sincere gratitude goes to all type of peace loving people in this world from Australia, Asia, Africa, Europe to North and South America. When will end all types of wars and conflicts and bring peace and then invest more on human development and the sustainable development of resource and environment for a harmonious society. Will there be once and for all solution?

*http://www.wisdomquotes4u.com/dont-judge-people-by-their-looks/*

*Don’t judge people by their looks*

*https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/The-Main-Reasons-For-War*
The 8 Main Reasons for War

*https://nationalinterest.org/feature/asias-5-most-lethal-wars-all-time-13468*
Asia's 5 Most Lethal Wars of All Time

*https://www.totallytimelines.com/wars-fought-in-east-asia-598-to-1975/*
*Wars Fought in East Asia 598 to 1975*

*https://testbook.com/blog/important-wars-battles-in-indian-history-pdf/*’

*https://www.totallytimelines.com/wars-fought-in-europe-499-bce-to-present-day/*
Wars Fought in Europe 499 BCE to Present Day

*http://neweasterneurope.eu/2019/03/24/bulgarias-denial-of-its-ottoman-past-and-turkish-identity/*
Bulgaria’s denial of its Ottoman past and Turkish identity

*https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-mongol-invasion-of-russia-in-the-13th-century.html*
*The Mongol Invasion of Russia in the 13th Century
*
*https://www.centuryassociation.org/...ongol-invasion-and-the-destruction-of-baghdad*
1258-The Mongol Invasion and the Destruction of Baghdad


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## Sdajii (6 April 2019)

explod said:


> We’re Sorry Canada
> March 31 at 8:17 AM ·




Are you trying to tell me that Nuns are not oppressed women? Pressured into a life of celibacy and lack of self direction. If that's your standard, goodness help us.
I was in India recently. Let's just say if I was a woman, I sure as @*!# wouldn't want to have been born there!
Muslims... well, if they complain about their lot in life they're lucky if they only get beaten. Their husbands literally follow a doctrine which says they can rape and bash them at their own discretion and no other person under any circumstances may criticise when and how a man rapes or beats his wife.
Sabian: You know someone is desperate for examples when they use something most people wouldn't even recognise.
Orthodox Judaism: Something becoming increasingly obscure, because despite being inherently evil itself, it didn't have a few of the extremely dangerous clauses Islam does (there isn't the death penalty for questioning a word of the doctrine, people can leave without being killed, and a few other points). Read the old testament of the bible. That's what orthodox Judaism is. It is extremely oppressive of women. Sex slavery, rape, etc, all good!

If anything, this this screams "If any organisation, group, doctrine or any other entity enforces a dress code like this it is a clear sign that women are being oppressed"

Yes, you're right.

Are people really this stupid? Well, sadly the answer is yes, but futile as the effort may be, I seek to change it.

I haven't yet found a way to wake people up, perhaps I will never find it, but likely I will never stop trying.

Take a moment to attempt to use your brain for genuine rational thought. In all of your own examples this clothing is used to subjugate women.


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## explod (6 April 2019)

Of course Sdaji, you get it, few do.

Chaining down and of course the whole purpose of religion in the first place, take away individual thinking so they can be controlled.


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## bellenuit (6 April 2019)

Sdajii said:


> Are you trying to tell me that Nuns are not oppressed women?




I had 4 aunts who were nuns and 2 of them spent their lives in very hot climates, one in Thailand and one in China (until she was expelled). When they were initially sent to the missions as they were then called, they basically had to wear the same habits as back home in their native cold and damp Ireland. They mentioned how insufferable it was and it was only when Vatican II (I think) relaxed a lot of the nonsense in the Catholic Church that they were able to adopt clothing suitable to the local climate. However, the habits they wore were imposed on them by the order and not something they voluntarily had liked. However, they wore them because they had taken vows of obedience, but since they were effectively brainwashed into thinking they were doing God's will, one could easily see this as oppression, even if voluntarily entered in to.


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## Sdajii (6 April 2019)

bellenuit said:


> I had 4 aunts who were nuns and 2 of them spent their lives in very hot climates, one in Thailand and one in China (until she was expelled). When they were initially sent to the missions as they were then called, they basically had to wear the same habits as back home in their native cold and damp Ireland. They mentioned how insufferable it was and it was only when Vatican II (I think) relaxed a lot of the nonsense in the Catholic Church that they were able to adopt clothing suitable to the local climate. However, the habits they wore were imposed on them by the order and not something they voluntarily had liked. However, they wore them because they had taken vows of obedience, but since they were effectively brainwashed into thinking they were doing God's will, one could easily see this as oppression, even if voluntarily entered in to.




It shouldn't take a genius to understand that a normal person would not choose a life of celibacy and complete lack of personal direction without some form of coercion. In my own family (on my stepfather's side) for multiple generations there was heavy pressure on people going back several generations to becomes nuns and priests because their parents believed it would give them a guaranteed ticket into Heaven. Often the fear of an eternity in Hell was used as a motive to make people 'voluntarily choose' this life. Naturally, those coerced into doing it generally claim it was their own free will and they love doing it. If they say "This is a terrible life and I wish I could have a normal life involving sex, children, a self-chosen career which fulfills me, self determination... I have none of this and my life is terrible" their family will be furious and they will believe such a thing will condemn themselves and their parents to an eternity in Hell, so a few more years of difficulty and living in denial seems to be worthwhile. Hey, if I believed the story I'd be signing up for that hideous life too, and I'd believe that all the suffering was worth it.

Looking at Islam, they don't just have the threat of Hell in the afterlife, they have the literal threat of being tortured to death in this life and then being sent to an eternity in Hell. Even if you don't believe the story, you'll claim to love it and believe it.

It's so hideous that people are so stupid that they can literally use a group of examples of oppressed women to show that one of them isn't oppressed. Human stupidity is phenomenal. This stupidity is what is preventing them from seeing the writing on the wall, clear as it is, and calling anyone who reads it and speaks the message aloud crazy, hateful, paranoid, when they themselves are the ones defending and enabling current evil and near future disaster. It'll be interesting to see how many of them do wake up when the ship hits the sand. Perhaps it will take a shift in the official propaganda they are exposed to.


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## MARKETWINNER (6 April 2019)




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## MARKETWINNER (6 April 2019)




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## MARKETWINNER (6 April 2019)




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## MARKETWINNER (7 April 2019)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5286169/Woman-disgusted-Air-Asia-flight-crew-uniforms.html
I found it quite disgusting': Passenger writes open letter to Malaysian government complaining about Air Asia's revealing uniforms and 'short skirts'

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news...sia-uniforms-are-ruining-malaysias-reputation
New Zealander says 'disgusting' AirAsia uniforms are ruining Malaysia's reputation


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## MARKETWINNER (7 April 2019)




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## MARKETWINNER (7 April 2019)




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## qldfrog (23 April 2019)

very quiet as usual when facts are not PC.
Should we add the 300 deads in Sri Lanka to the tally of the green plague.
Or just carry on a vague confused pretend....


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## wayneL (23 April 2019)

qldfrog said:


> very quiet as usual when facts are not PC.
> Should we add the 300 deads in Sri Lanka to the tally of the green plague.
> Or just carry on a vague confused pretend....



The programming is actually quite clever and amazing, after Christchurch I had quite a few of my acquaintances claim that we (whitefella/notionally judeochristian) are worse than them (Islamists)....

To say that I had a few facts for them to ponder is an understatement.


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## Garpal Gumnut (23 April 2019)

MARKETWINNER said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5286169/Woman-disgusted-Air-Asia-flight-crew-uniforms.html
> I found it quite disgusting': Passenger writes open letter to Malaysian government complaining about Air Asia's revealing uniforms and 'short skirts'
> 
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news...sia-uniforms-are-ruining-malaysias-reputation
> New Zealander says 'disgusting' AirAsia uniforms are ruining Malaysia's reputation




It would appear this story is a load of bollox, aka fake news. 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=dr+june+robertson+nz

gg


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## DB008 (23 April 2019)

One of the best podcasts l've seen so far on Islam



​


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## bellenuit (23 April 2019)

DB008 said:


> One of the best podcasts l've seen so far on Islam




Yes, excellent. Unfortunately both will not be listened to and just branded Islamophobic.


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## qldfrog (24 April 2019)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04...ristchurch-minister-says/11040122?pfmredir=sm
So it is all good just retaliation blowing up 6x as many people is normal and human
We need to understand..
Islam does not need reasons or pretexts to blow infidels up.it is its sheer purpose until global domination..


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## DB008 (26 April 2019)

TIL that Sir Salman Rushdie still receives a "sort of Valentine's card" from Iran each year on 14 February letting him know the country has not forgotten the vow to kill him. No, Islam isn't violent.....

In reference to :

The publication of _The Satanic Verses_ in September 1988 caused immediate controversy in the Islamic world because of what was seen by some to be an irreverent depiction of Muhammad. The title refers to a disputed Muslim tradition that is related in the book. According to this tradition, Muhammad (Mahound in the book) added verses (_Ayah_) to the Qur'an accepting three goddesses who used to be worshipped in Mecca as divine beings. According to the legend, Muhammad later revoked the verses, saying the devil tempted him to utter these lines to appease the Meccans (hence the "Satanic" verses). However, the narrator reveals to the reader that these disputed verses were actually from the mouth of the Archangel Gabriel. The book was banned in many countries with large Muslim communities (13 in total: Iran, India, Bangladesh, Sudan, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Kenya, Thailand, Tanzania, Indonesia, Singapore, Venezuela, and Pakistan).

In response to the protests, on 22 January 1989 Rushdie published a column in _The Observer_ that called Muhammad "one of the great geniuses of world history," but noted that Islamic doctrine holds Muhammad to be human, and in no way perfect. He held that the novel is not "an anti-religious novel. It is, however, an attempt to write about migration, its stresses and transformations."

On 14 February 1989—Valentine's Day, and also the day of his close friend Bruce Chatwin's funeral—a _fatwā_ ordering Rushdie's execution was proclaimed on Radio Tehran by Ayatollah Khomeini, the spiritual leader of Iran at the time, calling the book "blasphemous against Islam". (Chapter IV of the book depicts the character of an Imam in exile who returns to incite revolt from the people of his country with no regard for their safety.) A bounty was offered for Rushdie's death, and he was thus forced to live under police protection for several years. On 7 March 1989, the United Kingdom and Iran broke diplomatic relations over the Rushdie controversy.

When, on BBC Radio 4, he was asked for a response to the threat, Rushdie said, "Frankly, I wish I had written a more critical book," and "I'm very sad that it should have happened. It's not true that this book is a blasphemy against Islam. I doubt very much that Khomeini or anyone else in Iran has read the book or more than selected extracts out of context." Later, he wrote that he was "proud, then and always", of that statement; while he did not feel his book was especially critical of Islam, "a religion whose leaders behaved in this way could probably use a little criticism."

The publication of the book and the _fatwā_ sparked violence around the world, with bookstores firebombed. Muslim communities in several nations in the West held public rallies, burning copies of the book. Several people associated with translating or publishing the book were attacked, seriously injured, and even killed. Many more people died in riots in some countries. Despite the danger posed by the fatwā, Rushdie made a public appearance at London's Wembley Stadium on 11 August 1993 during a concert by U2. In 2010, U2 bassist Adam Clayton recalled that "[lead vocalist] Bono had been calling Salman Rushdie from the stage every night on the Zoo TV tour. When we played Wembley, Salman showed up in person and the stadium erupted. You [could] tell from [drummer] Larry Mullen, Jr.'s face that we weren't expecting it. Salman was a regular visitor after that. He had a backstage pass and he used it as often as possible. For a man who was supposed to be in hiding, it was remarkably easy to see him around the place."

On 24 September 1998, as a precondition to the restoration of diplomatic relations with the UK, the Iranian government, then headed by Mohammad Khatami, gave a public commitment that it would "neither support nor hinder assassination operations on Rushdie."

Hardliners in Iran have continued to reaffirm the death sentence. In early 2005, Khomeini's _fatwā_ was reaffirmed by Iran's current spiritual leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, in a message to Muslim pilgrims making the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. Additionally, the Revolutionary Guards declared that the death sentence on him is still valid.​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie#The_Satanic_Verses_and_the_fatwā​

And cat Stevens never apologized.

For those not in the know, Cat Stevens was asked about the fatwa, and said he would rather see Rushdie lit on fire than an effigy and that if Rushdie came to him for help he would call the ayatollah. He later claimed it was a joke, and years later claimed he was only talking about instructions in the Koran. He has never said he is sorry, he has never said death for blasphemy is clearly wrong.​

Talk about insecure. Murdering people in the 21st century because their imaginary friend told them to.


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## chiff (26 April 2019)

I have always thought that we are lucky that the Vietnamese,Laotians and Cambodians do not resort to the same extremism as Muslims.They accepted their fate.
Iran has a strong antipathy toward the US after a popular government was overthrown by the US and replaced by the Shah.The only way to get rid of the western backed Shah was by revolution.
The backing of the dog regimes in Saudi and Egypt,together with gratuitous invasions and promoting violence in Iraq,Libya,Afghanistan and Syria ,I suspect,do not go down well the inculcated extremists.Not to mention Israel being foisted on the Middle East.In my opinion all fertile ground for criminal Islamic extremists.I heard one scribe say that  the distrust goes back to the Crusades.The vast majority of people,of whatever persuasion,want to live blameless lives...it is the extremist fringes that are unacceptable and dangerous.


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## basilio (26 April 2019)

Wow!! A bit of accurate history and context on many of the reasons  Middle eastern communities don't have the US on their Christmas card list.

Nice work..


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## wayneL (26 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Wow!! A bit of accurate history and context on many of the reasons  Middle eastern communities don't have the US on their Christmas card list.
> 
> Nice work..



Middle Eastern countries don't celebrate Christmas bro, so probably never on the Christmas card list.

Just saying


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## basilio (26 April 2019)

wayneL said:


> Middle Eastern countries don't celebrate Christmas bro, so probably never on the Christmas card list.
> 
> Just saying




"Figure of speech ? " Bit too complex perhaps ? Not besties ?


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## wayneL (26 April 2019)

basilio said:


> "Figure of speech ? " Bit too complex perhaps ? Not besties ?



Yeah, I guess the clue was when they first invaded Europe in the first millenium. ;-)


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## qldfrog (4 May 2019)

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/03/its-time-for-saudi-arabia-to-stop-exporting-extremism/
Interesting reading in my opinion, and nearly sure it is not an alt right site
The inconvenient truth


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## qldfrog (4 May 2019)

During that time
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...t-terror-france-jihadist-police-elysee-palace
Just lucky the relentless head banging and god with me principles make these guys relatively easy to track/catch...


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## wayneL (5 May 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/03/its-time-for-saudi-arabia-to-stop-exporting-extremism/
> Interesting reading in my opinion, and nearly sure it is not an alt right site
> The inconvenient truth



I fear the only real solution is one almost nobody will like, including me. 

But I think "excessive" liberalism is creating a rich seed bed for the rise of one or another form of totalitarianism, and maybe... probably, war.

...and that is already germinating.


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## Sdajii (5 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> I fear the only real solution is one almost nobody will like, including me.
> 
> But I think "excessive" liberalism is creating a rich seed bed for the rise of one or another form of totalitarianism, and maybe... probably, war.
> 
> ...and that is already germinating.




I think much more than 10 years ago it was possible to see the writing on the wall telling that we were on a path to the world's largest ever war. It was a little over 10 years ago that I saw it and started talking about it. At the time almost everyone said I was crazy. More and more people now agree, and it's not an unusual thing to believe. At this point it's strange to not be able to see what's going on. We live in a completely bizarre world with such blatant social engineering going on which in some ways is so obvious it's strange anyone could fail to see it, but it is indeed strange and most people still can't see it.

Clearly insane narratives completely counter to reality are relentlessly pushed by governments and the media they control. People are now increasingly being actively forced to believe them or at least pay lip service to them. Many of these are clearly destructive to the countries in which the narratives are being pushed. Speaking reality is actively being punished in an increasing number of cases, and this is extremely partisan.

Looking at Islam (the topic of this thread), it bluntly commands members to be terrorists and not surprisingly there are countless cases of terrorism caused by it (promising people ever lasting happiness with a harem of virgins if they blow innocent people and themselves up... if that doesn't count as evil it'll do until something evil comes along!). The vast majority of these are completely or effectively ignored by the media. When they are mentioned, the media constantly plays it down, makes excuses, distracts from the religion of the person/people doing it, often denies it, and often paints the terrorist as the victim. In most cases it claims they are 'lone wolf attacks' etc. When we get one white person shooting a mosque, clearly acting as a 'lone wolf', the media says it is clearly a symptom of a wider movement and representative of a general feeling of a huge number of people! It is plastered all over the news, the country's PM wears a hijab, etc. Speaking against Muslims is a hate crime, but speaking against white people or Christians, even calling for their deaths, is completely fine.

How is it even a question to ask if this is evil?


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## basilio (5 May 2019)

Sdajii said:


> I think much more than 10 years ago it was possible to see the writing on the wall telling that we were on a path to the world's largest ever war. It was a little over 10 years ago that I saw it and started talking about it. At the time almost everyone said I was crazy. More and more people now agree, and it's not an unusual thing to believe. At this point it's strange to not be able to see what's going on. We live in a completely bizarre world with such blatant social engineering going on which in some ways is so obvious it's strange anyone could fail to see it, but it is indeed strange and most people still can't see it.
> 
> Clearly insane narratives completely counter to reality are relentlessly pushed by governments and the media they control. People are now increasingly being actively forced to believe them or at least pay lip service to them. Many of these are clearly destructive to the countries in which the narratives are being pushed. Speaking reality is actively being punished in an increasing number of cases, and this is extremely partisan.
> 
> ...




*"How is it even a question to ask if this is evil?" *

Perhaps because your version of reality is just a monstrous lie and no matter how often other evidence is offered to demonstrate that you continue to peddle it.


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## Sdajii (5 May 2019)

basilio said:


> *"How is it even a question to ask if this is evil?" *
> 
> Perhaps because your version of reality is just a monstrous lie and no matter how often other evidence is offered to demonstrate that you continue to peddle it.




How is it a monstrous lie?

Mohamed literally spend his life leading people to kill innocent people and to commit acts of terrorism. This is not a monstrous lie, it is just actual historical data, whether you look at secular history or Islam's own description of history (except they classify any human who is not Muslim or who does not want to be Muslim of being sufficiently guilty to deserve being killed). This in itself should qualify it as evil.

Their holy book literally commands them to commit acts of terrorism. It is literally their duty. How is this not evil?

The holy book bribes them with virgins in the afterlife if they die while killing non Muslims. How is this not evil?

It literally condones rape, beating of women, slavery, sex slavery, it is literally genocidal. How is this not evil?

All of these things are being actively carried out today, and have been literally since the religion's creation over a thousand years ago.

Which part of this is a lie? How is this not evil?


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## basilio (5 May 2019)

Sdajii said:


> How is it a monstrous lie?
> 
> Mohamed literally spend his life leading people to kill innocent people and to commit acts of terrorism. This is not a monstrous lie, it is just actual historical data, whether you look at secular history or Islam's own description of history (except they classify any human who is not Muslim or who does not want to be Muslim of being sufficiently guilty to deserve being killed). This in itself should qualify it as evil.
> 
> ...




Repeating the lies doesn't make them true. It just places you where you want to be.


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## Sdajii (5 May 2019)

basilio said:


> Repeating the lies doesn't make them true. It just places you where you want to be.




Repeating lies does not make them true, but none of the above is a lie. If you are claiming these are not facts, you are the one lying.

If you honestly think these things are not true, let's look into one or more of them.

Mohamed was literally a warmonger. He didn't just spend his life building a temple, praying in it and telling people to love each other. He literally lead armies to kill innocent people, he literally encouraged rape, he literally endorsed slavery, etc etc.

This is not some crazy myth recently spread by people, this is what tangibly did happen. The holy book of Islam says Mohamed was the perfect man and people should be as much like him as possible. It literally says that if anyone questions or suggests changing a single word of the religion they should be killed.

Again, how is this not evil?

If you honestly believe any of these things are not correct, name them and we can look into it.

Even if you want to believe that secular history is incorrect, the religion itself is what we are describing as evil, and the religion itself says these things, which would make it evil even if the real world events during Mohamed's life never happened.


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## qldfrog (5 May 2019)

And when you ask people if they have read the Koran, it is a no, or i read extract.
How easy it is to go and read the book
Just the book its itsching etc
But people are so scared of the inconvenient truth they cowardly backoff with the lamest of excuses
Islam the religion is evil for me as a believer in mankind, equality of human rights etc
Most muslims may not be evil but that is just because many are wise enough not to follow the book.


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## Sdajii (5 May 2019)

qldfrog said:


> And when you ask people if they have read the Koran, it is a no, or i read extract.
> How easy it is to go and read the book
> Just the book its itsching etc
> But people are so scared of the inconvenient truth they cowardly backoff with the lamest of excuses
> ...





Absolutely, 200%

The people defending Islam are either Muslim or do not understand Islam.

No one should defend (or oppose) Islam or anything else without being informed.

It is indeed easy to read the Koran, but the people defending it won't do that. I strongly believe that a significant number of these people refuse to read it and inform themselves not because they are lazy but because deep down they do know that reading it will confront them with a reality they have been denying in too clear a way for them to continue to deny it, and people so hate admitting that they were wrong after publicly supporting something.

And yes, absolutely, many (I believe most) Muslims are good people. Not because of their religion but in spite of it. The religion commands people to kill and terrorise. Anyone who follows that is surely a bad person. Anyone who is Muslim and a good person (the majority of them, I believe) are good people because they are fundamentally good individual people and not following the religion correctly.

Considering literally most Muslims in the world today would be killed (by other Muslims) if they openly said "I no longer wish to be Muslim" (again, how on Earth is that not evil?), I am sure a lot of them would actually like to leave, and only remain as Muslims because they literally have only 3 alternatives: 1) Remain Muslim 2) Death 3) Run away from all family and friends and remain in exile for life in a far away land, starting a new life with no support from their home, knowing if they ever return they will be killed, and their life will always be in danger.

This is literally the 3 options the majority of Muslims in the world today have. It is even the reality for the majority of the men. Imagine how bad it is for the women who are literally taught from little girls that they are worth half what a man is and that they must always be subservient to males. Imagine that level of brainwashing and how difficult it is for them to leave - virtually impossible for almost all of them.

...and most people still say Islam is not evil!


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## bellenuit (5 May 2019)

basilio said:


> Repeating the lies doesn't make them true.




You should be able to do better than that. What exactly are the lies regarding his statements on Islam. It seems that when it comes to climate change your correctly demand facts, but when it comes to Islam you shy away from reality. The claims regarding Islam are not right wing provocation, but are factually correct and have been re-iterated time and time again by many on the left side of politics who are willing to face up to the truth.

So why not prove Sdajji wrong rather than calling him a liar.


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## qldfrog (5 May 2019)

Bellenuit, why do you even bother?
Sdajii said it in the best of way:

 I strongly believe that a significant number of these people refuse to read it and informt not because they are lazy but because deep down they do know that reading it will confront them with areality they have been denying in too clear a way for them to continue to deny it, and people so hate admitting that they were wrong after publicly supporting something.

Intellectual cowards....


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## basilio (5 May 2019)

Proving Sdajii  wrong ? 
I'll take just one point that is current and clearly a lie.



Sdajii said:


> *When we get one white person shooting a mosque, clearly acting as a 'lone wolf'*, the media says it is clearly a symptom of a wider movement and representative of a general feeling of a huge number of people! It is plastered all over the news, the country's PM wears a hijab, etc. Speaking against Muslims is a hate crime, but speaking against white people or Christians, even calling for their deaths, is completely fine.
> 
> How is it even a question to ask if this is evil?




The Christchurch murderer made it totally clear he was representing and attempting to inspire whatever number of other fanatics out there to start shooting up mosques, Muslims  whatever.

That was why he published a manifesto filled with the sort of hate speech Sdajii is echoing

That is why he live cammed his murders in a mosque.

And somehow Sdajii represents him as a "lone wolf" and undermines  the fact that this was a terrorist act intended to inflame hatred  and encourage similar actions ? 

I think this thread is one of the more inflammatory and abusive places on ASF. 

I do not accept that painting the religious  foundation of 25% of the worlds population as inherently murderous is either true or an acceptable statement. In my view it comes under the heading of Hate Speech and  should be treated as such.


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## Sdajii (5 May 2019)

basilio said:


> Proving Sdajii  wrong ?
> I'll take just one point that is current and clearly a lie.
> 
> 
> ...




Firstly, I have not made anything resembling hate speech, I denounce hate speech, and I formally, unambiguously request you to retract the accusation. A doctrine which commands the murder of innocent people is evil. Stating this is not hate speech. I even made a specific point of saying that I believe most Muslims are good people. Clearly I do not wish hate upon people. It is disgusting of you to make this accusation.

Yes, indeed, the Christchurch shooter did clearly wish to incite others to take actions and to change their thinking. This is clearly under the definition of terrorism. However, it is not in any way exclusive with acting as a lone wolf. There is no evidence and to my knowledge no suggestion that he was acting as part of any organised group. This means he was very much a lone wolf. I have never suggested or implied in any way that he wasn't a terrorist or that he wasn't trying to influence others. This is irrelevant to his status as a lone wolf, it is relevant to his status as a terrorist, which he clearly is.

The fact that you do not accept that a doctrine is inherently murderous simply makes you ignorant if that doctrine is indeed murderous. If a man literally lives a life leading people to kill innocent people and writes a book commanding people to kill innocent people, giving them threats of eternal Hell if they don't and bribes of eternal happiness with virgins to do with as they please if they do, how does it not qualify as inherently murderous? If this is not inherently murderous, could you describe something which is?

It is sad that simply stating clear, unambiguous facts which in no way seek to bring any sort of harm or any sort of hatred upon any person is considered hate speech by some people. It is sad that a doctrine which from its very beginning has been the source of terrorism, rape, slavery, murder and genocide is defended, and that anyone saying that such an evil thing is evil is the one guilty of hate speech! If saying something which commands and directly causes people to kill, rape, terrorise and enslave is what it is, in your opinion, is hate speech, what on Earth is the thing itself which commands and causes people to murder, rape, enslave and terrorise? You are the one actually defending extreme hate speech. I challenge you to read to Koran and inform yourself. There, you will see true hate speech. Just as an example, the first time I opened a Koran, before I read it, I turned to a random page and read the first line I happened to see, which was "The Jews are the enemy of Islam". Islam has an expressly stated mission to exterminate the Jews (not surprisingly, they have been attempting it for over 1,400 years now, as it is their duty). Is saying the Jews are the enemy and literally commanding their extermination hate speech? Is standing against hate speech hate speech? This is by no means the worst of it, just something which happens to stick in my mind because it was the first line of the Koran I read.

If you want to stand against hate speech, read the Koran and you'll find plenty of material!


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## bellenuit (5 May 2019)

I think this quote from the article that follows sums up just some of the problems being discussed here:

_This began to change about six months ago when I became involved with the ex-Muslim movement. As I became acquainted with the activism of role models such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Yasmine Mohamed, Armin Navabi and Ali Rizvi, I began to recognise the cognitive dissonance afflicting the left, leaving them with a severe blind spot. A bizarre alliance with Islam, a set of very conservative ideas, has earned them the label of “regressive left’’ instead. Their misguided campaign against “Islamophobia” has failed to separate the ideology from the people, conflating prejudice against Muslims with valid opposition to the doctrine. The stigma has hindered constructive discourse and established a concerning trend whereby issues typically challenged by the left, such as homophobia and gender inequality are disregarded where prevalent in Muslim majority countries or even Muslim communities within the west._

*How Intersectionalism Betrays the World’s Muslim Women*

https://quillette.com/2019/04/28/how-intersectionalism-betrays-the-worlds-muslim-women/


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## SirRumpole (5 May 2019)

basilio said:
			
		

> I do not accept that painting the religious foundation of 25% of the worlds population as inherently murderous is either true or an acceptable statement. In my view it comes under the heading of Hate Speech and should be treated as such.




Well, I'm afraid you have fallen for the PC dogma that criticism of bad acts of some members of a sect is criticism of all members of that sect. 

That is purely rubbish, and it's a lie perpetrated by vested interests to avoid genuine criticism, whether those interests be Jewish (criticism of Israel's actions in the Gaza strip are blatant examples of anti Semitism) or Muslim (criticism of terrorist attacks, cutting the hands of beggars, flogging women for being raped etc is blatant Islamaphobia).

Of course if any members of that sect agree with the bad acts of other members of that sect then they are included in the criticism, if they don't agree then they can use the benefits of living in a democracy to say so.

People in this country have a right to criticise anyone else, as long as they can back up their comments with facts, and Sadjii and others have done this, so if you disagree with his statements then argue them on FACT and don't run and hide under the cover of "hate speech".


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## qldfrog (5 May 2019)

So once again and i know the answer, have you read the Koran Basilio?
And what is your pretext not to?
Too busy defending islam on social media?


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## chiff (6 May 2019)

When we were young impressionable boys we liked the part of the Bible that said that you were entitled to beat your slaves.We fantasised on giving her a real thrashing.


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## noirua (6 May 2019)

*Geronimo* (Mescalero-Chiricahua: Goyaałé [kòjàːɬɛ́] "the one who yawns"; June 1829 – February 17, 1909) was a prominent leader and medicine man from the Bedonkohe band of the Apache tribe. From 1850 to 1886 Geronimo joined with members of three other Chiricahua Apache bands—the Tchihende, the Tsokanende and the Nednhi—to carry out numerous raids as well as resistance to US and Mexican military campaigns in the northern Mexico states of Chihuahua and Sonora, and in the southwestern American territories of New Mexico and Arizona. Geronimo's raids and related combat actions were a part of the prolonged period of the Apache–United States conflict, which started with American settlement in Apache lands following the end of the war with Mexico in 1848.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo

What has Geronimo got to do with Muslims?  Anyway, looking at his views, quite changeable, he was probably more adaptable and changed depending on circumstances. Those of religion who refuse to change or adapt in anyway should listen to the words of Geronimo.







	

		
			
		

		
	
From right to left, Apache leader Geronimo, Yanozha (Geronimos's brother-in-law), Chappo (Geronimo's son by his second wife), and Fun (Yanozha's half brother) in 1886. Taken by C. S. Fly.


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## bellenuit (7 May 2019)




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## bellenuit (8 May 2019)

*THE GLOBAL WAR ON CHRISTIANS IN THE MUSLIM WORLD*

*https://www.newsweek.com/ayaan-hirsi-alithe-global-war-christians-muslim-world-65817
*
_The conspiracy of silence surrounding this violent expression of religious intolerance has to stop. Nothing less than the fate of Christianity—and ultimately of all religious minorities—in the Islamic world is at stake._


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## bellenuit (8 May 2019)




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## bellenuit (10 May 2019)

*Feminism’s Blind Spot: the Abuse of Women by Non-White Men, Particularly Muslims*

*https://quillette.com/2019/05/07/fe...-women-by-non-white-men-particularly-muslims/*


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## bellenuit (13 May 2019)

Nothing to worry about here. Just some Christians being killed. 

*Burkina Faso church attack: Priest among six killed*

*https://www.bbc.com/news/world-afri...kTTjvu3Uv_Aqd6KWKK44NzksbTRSvOydJe-mJKAnCYD7o*


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## bellenuit (15 May 2019)




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## lindsayf (15 May 2019)

Who is it that needs a psychiatrist.....?
That is a great example of islam in action when it comes to free speech and how ideas are contested.  Well done to Sam Harris and others involved in helping him get out and possibly saving his life.


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## moXJO (15 May 2019)

bellenuit said:


> View attachment 94649




Wow thats a good one.


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## basilio (23 May 2019)

Check it out.

* What happened when I met my Islamophobic troll *
Illustration: Guardian Design/Christophe Gowans
In 2017, I started getting regular messages from an anonymous Twitter user telling me my religion was ‘evil’. Eventually I responded – and he agreed to meet face to face. By Hussein Kesvani

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/may/23/what-happened-when-i-met-my-islamophobic-troll


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## qldfrog (23 May 2019)

Read the Koran yet Basilio?


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## Value Collector (23 May 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Read the Koran yet Basilio?




The Koran doesn’t have anything in that the Bible doesn’t also have, the only issue is that the Bible has less people taking it seriously these days.

After the Koran is simple part 3 of the same story.

(Before anyone has a knee jerk reaction and says something like “the Bible doesn’t say to kill non believers” please do a google search on the topic)


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## moXJO (23 May 2019)

basilio said:


> Check it out.
> 
> * What happened when I met my Islamophobic troll *
> Illustration: Guardian Design/Christophe Gowans
> ...




I wonder if it was a bs article?

Couple of "true brits" around.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sayingwhatucant

https://mobile.twitter.com/truebrit18


https://mobile.twitter.com/bornandbredbrit


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## Sdajii (24 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> The Koran doesn’t have anything in that the Bible doesn’t also have, the only issue is that the Bible has less people taking it seriously these days.
> 
> After the Koran is simple part 3 of the same story.
> 
> (Before anyone has a knee jerk reaction and says something like “the Bible doesn’t say to kill non believers” please do a google search on the topic)




It is true that the old testament of the bible (not the doctrine of Christianity) is almost as evil as the Koran. There are several big differences. The main relevant difference is that while the Jews are commanded to kill or enslave everyone who isn't a Jew, they don't encourage others to join, indeed, they make it very difficult and it's pretty much actively discouraged. If not for this fact, Judaism would have taken over the world by now. Even if this had happened, one very important thing which functionally (not fundamentally but practically) makes Judaism far less violent and problematic, especially internally, is that it is not so fanatical. It is far more liberal. As an example of the fanaticism, Islam says that anyone who questions or doubts a single word of the Koran must be killed. Judaism is far more relaxed. Islam also promises a ticket to Heaven with virgins you can rape if you die killing infidels. Judaism doesn't have anything quite so insidious.

And it may be worth noting that 'it's in the bible' is often used to falsely imply that it is part of Christianity. The old testament is genocidal, and yes, it is also fundamentally evil. It is the second most evil major world religion after Islam, and one of only two significantly evil major religions. Unlike Abraham and Mohamed, Jesus was not a warmonger or rapist, he never killed anyone, he was against slavery, he said love your enemy and turn the other cheek. The other two literally said 'exterminate or enslave everyone who is not one of us' and used various forms of terrorism and warfare to achieve those goals, which any sane person should recognise as evil.

Again, this is not to say all Jewish people are evil (indeed, few of them take the doctrine seriously these days, which is good, because the doctrine literally tells them they must commit genocide, and teaches that genocide is a part of their people's history they should be proud of and continue, and it is largely based in fact). But the religion itself is extremely evil. Anything which promotes genocide, rape, slavery, etc, is evil. If you can't see that there is something wrong with you.

I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has said 'Jews are evil' and I don't think anyone has said 'Muslims are evil', and I don't think it would be good to say either of those things, but both doctrines command members to be evil, and that is fundamentally evil. The religions/doctrines are evil if they command people to commit evil acts. Surely we would all agree that something which doesn't just promote or encourage but literally commands people to commit evil acts is an evil thing, and surely we can all agree that killing innocent people, raping innocent women, etc etc, are evil. It's ridiculous for this to even be questioned, but we do indeed live in a ridiculous world.


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## qldfrog (24 May 2019)

Sdajii said:


> It is true that the old testament of the bible (not the doctrine of Christianity) is almost as evil as the Koran. There are several big differences. The main relevant difference is that while the Jews are commanded to kill or enslave everyone who isn't a Jew, they don't encourage others to join, indeed, they make it very difficult and it's pretty much actively discouraged. If not for this fact, Judaism would have taken over the world by now. Even if this had happened, one very important thing which functionally (not fundamentally but practically) makes Judaism far less violent and problematic, especially internally, is that it is not so fanatical. It is far more liberal. As an example of the fanaticism, Islam says that anyone who questions or doubts a single word of the Koran must be killed. Judaism is far more relaxed. Islam also promises a ticket to Heaven with virgins you can rape if you die killing infidels. Judaism doesn't have anything quite so insidious.
> 
> And it may be worth noting that 'it's in the bible' is often used to falsely imply that it is part of Christianity. The old testament is genocidal, and yes, it is also fundamentally evil. It is the second most evil major world religion after Islam, and one of only two significantly evil major religions. Unlike Abraham and Mohamed, Jesus was not a warmonger or rapist, he never killed anyone, he was against slavery, he said love your enemy and turn the other cheek. The other two literally said 'exterminate or enslave everyone who is not one of us' and used various forms of terrorism and warfare to achieve those goals, which any sane person should recognise as evil.
> 
> ...



We do indeed live in a ridiculous world when people with the mist retarded views on the world and history, be it what an horror islam and its history is, seem to forget what communism was and still is, and seem to adore any brave new world implementation,
 dare calling themselves progressive
Where is the real aspirational left gone?


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## Sdajii (24 May 2019)

qldfrog said:


> We do indeed live in a ridiculous world when people with the mist retarded views on the world and history, be it what an horror islam and its history is, seem to forget what communism was and still is, and seem to adore any brave new world implementation,
> dare calling themselves progressive
> Where is the real aspirational left gone?




I agree that many people are ridiculously and destructively ignorant of history and a move towards communism is not progress since communism is nothing new, it is something old with a perfect record of failure, usually outright horrific failure, but bringing communism into the discussion here is a little off topic unless I'm missing something.


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## qldfrog (24 May 2019)

I am off topic, sorry
Just the same ignorance on facts history..
My apologies


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## chiff (24 May 2019)

Has anyone on this forum really read the Koran or the Bible?If so -why would you do it?


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## Value Collector (24 May 2019)

Sdajii said:


> It is true that the old testament of the bible (not the doctrine of Christianity) .




That’s not really true, the Old Testament forms part of the doctrine of many brands of Christianity, to make out that the teachings of the Old Testament are ignored by Christians is simply wrong both historically and in present day.

We are just fortunate that on average Christianity is not taken seriously by its followers.


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## wayneL (24 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> That’s not really true, the Old Testament forms part of the doctrine of many brands of Christianity, to make out that the teachings of the Old Testament are ignored by Christians is simply wrong both historically and in present day.
> 
> We are just fortunate that on average Christianity is not taken seriously by its followers.



The west and Christianity has (err,  had) progressed from the medieval legalism of control by Catholisim,  seemingly intent to regress into medieval legalism of control by Islam.


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## SirRumpole (24 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> We are just fortunate that on average Christianity is not taken seriously by its followers.




Yes, as opposed to Islam, which we don't want to take root in this country.


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## Sdajii (24 May 2019)

chiff said:


> Has anyone on this forum really read the Koran or the Bible?If so -why would you do it?





Value Collector said:


> That’s not really true, the Old Testament forms part of the doctrine of many brands of Christianity, to make out that the teachings of the Old Testament are ignored by Christians is simply wrong both historically and in present day.
> 
> We are just fortunate that on average Christianity is not taken seriously by its followers.




You are confusing 'Christianity' and 'Christians'.

The doctrine of Christianity can either be described as what Jesus taught (I would argue this is the correct way to define it) or what is actually taught by any branch of Christianity (which gets nebulous and debatable). Either way, Jesus never killed anyone or told anyone to kill anyone and no branch of Christianity (other than perhaps an irrelevant tiny minority which would not be taken seriously by the rest of it) says we should kill. 

Yes, some Christians including Christian leaders do make the mistake of thinking the Old Testament is their own doctrine. That doesn't make the religion bad, it makes those individuals wrong. And if (I don't actually think there has ever been any sect of Christianity which has ever done it, but let's play devil's advocate for you) some sect of Christianity did adopt the genocidal, rapey, etc aspects of the Old Testament, then yes, absolutely, that sect of Christianity would be evil. But that's getting as absurd as me saying that I represent veganism or Buddhism or feminism and get myself a few followers and start saying we need to torture kittens and dismember children, and saying that veganism or Buddhism or feminism was evil for that reason.

The question of Islam is much easier to define because it is unchangeable, indeed, changing a single word of it is punishable by death (this in itself is clearly evil and only a mentally inept person would argue otherwise). Because of this, the Koran exists in only one original version which has never changed. It is very evil. This is not debatable in any reasonable way. And yes, the doctrine of Judaism is also evil. Not quite as evil, but still clearly evil. The actual true doctrine of Christianity is not really evil, and you can only call it evil by misrepresenting it, unless you are talking about much lesser evils such as convincing people to believe in fiction.

What individual Christians, Jews or Muslims choose to do or believe and whether or not they are evil is a very different question. Most people would agree that most individual people in each of those groups are not evil.

But to say that a person can lead people into genocide and terrorism and while a doctrine which commands people to commit genocide, terrorism, rape and slavery, and that doctrine is not evil, makes you  fool.


----------



## Value Collector (24 May 2019)

Sdajii said:


> You are confusing 'Christianity' and 'Christians'.
> 
> The doctrine of Christianity can either be described as what Jesus taught (I would argue this is the correct way to define it) or what is actually taught by any branch of Christianity (which gets nebulous and debatable). Either way, Jesus never killed anyone or told anyone to kill anyone and no branch of Christianity (other than perhaps an irrelevant tiny minority which would not be taken seriously by the rest of it) says we should kill.
> 
> ...




You said Christianity doesn’t base any doctrines on the Old Testament, which it clearly does.

Even if you want to limit it to what Jesus said, Jesus himself preaches doctrines from the Old Testament, for example the 10 commandments, and he talks about genesis, he also states he didn’t come to change any of the old rules.

I didn’t say Jesus told anyone to kill anybody (although he did say some things that seem like he is ok with violence on some level, such as saying he didn’t come to bring peace he came to bring the sword, and when he tells stories about killing people they aren’t always negative in nature.

In Luke 19:27, Jesus says this


But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay _them_ before me.

It’s a parable, but it doesn’t seem he is against the concepts


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## Value Collector (24 May 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, as opposed to Islam, which we don't want to take root in this country.




We can’t get rid of Islam, just as we can’t get rid of Christianity, all we can do is hope that the trend continues and religions become less and less serious in their followers minds.

Attacking a religion doesn’t help, religions thrive on persecution, ISIS them selves said they love it when westerners target moderate Muslims, and want to ban the burqa etc, it makes it easier for isis to recruit a young male if he crew up feeling like an outcast and saw his parents snubbed by the rest of society.


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## wayneL (24 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> We can’t get rid of Islam, just as we can’t get rid of Christianity, all we can do is hope that the trend continues and religions become less and less serious in their followers minds.
> 
> Attacking a religion doesn’t help, religions thrive on persecution, ISIS them selves said they love it when westerners target moderate Muslims, and want to ban the burqa etc, it makes it easier for isis to recruit a young male if he crew up feeling like an outcast and saw his parents snubbed by the rest of society.



There is no evidence that Islam is becoming more secular. The evidence to the contrary is actual overwhelming, Islam is becoming far more Fundamentalist in the last half century or so.


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## SirRumpole (24 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> There is no evidence that Islam is becoming more secular. The evidence to the contrary is actual overwhelming, Islam is becoming far more Fundamentalist in the last half century or so.




In Islamic countries that's true, in non Islamic countries they are becoming slightly more radical and the import of "refugees" from Islamic countries has allowed hard liners in here to spread the poison to the moderates.


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## Sdajii (24 May 2019)

chiff said:


> Has anyone on this forum really read the Koran or the Bible?If so -why would you do it?




Yes. If you want to have a valid opinion on anything you need to inform yourself. It is shameful that so many people feel that they deserve not only to have an opinion but to promote that opinion when they are uninformed.

Religion is a very significant part of the world. The two largest religions in the world today are Christianity and Islam. The most powerful empire the world has ever seen has been based in Christianity and the fastest growing religion which is set to overtake it is Islam.

Reading the bible and Koran takes well under 100 hours. The Koran is only about 15 hours - if you read just 30 minutes per day it wouldn't take a month. If you commute to school or work by public transport you could probably do it in under a month simply by doing it instead of staring out the window at the same old scenery. Many people read pointless novels or spend hours per day on clickbait. Literally most people who defend Islam on social media have spent more time defending Islam on social media than the time it would have taken to read to Koran, but they haven't bothered to read the Koran, and if they did, most wouldn't defend it, because it is absolutely insidiously evil. But, people would literally prefer to argue their opinion rather than to actually invest time in forming an opinion with any worth.

Same deal with politics and many other topics.


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## Value Collector (24 May 2019)

wayneL said:


> There is no evidence that Islam is becoming more secular. The evidence to the contrary is actual overwhelming, Islam is becoming far more Fundamentalist in the last half century or so.




I think you are just witnessing the polarization that is bound to happen as religions feel like they are losing grip.

The important thing is to not give those that are doubling down and becoming more polarized more ammunition.

Like anything the media will show you the noisy few, and ignore the moderates busy doing gall bladder surgery, concreting or driving uber.


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## chiff (24 May 2019)

Sdajii said:


> Yes. If you want to have a valid opinion on anything you need to inform yourself. It is shameful that so many people feel that they deserve not only to have an opinion but to promote that opinion when they are uninformed.
> 
> Religion is a very significant part of the world. The two largest religions in the world today are Christianity and Islam. The most powerful empire the world has ever seen has been based in Christianity and the fastest growing religion which is set to overtake it is Islam.
> 
> ...



Well you are a better man than me Gungadin....I have trouble with the five pillars of Islam and the Ten Commandments. However I did read Grimms Fairy tales when I was young -most of it anyway-scared the pants off me.Then came the Father Son and the Holy Ghost,aka ,Daddio Laddio and Spookio.Now that made me fear for my mortal soul?


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## qldfrog (24 May 2019)

I


chiff said:


> Has anyone on this forum really read the Koran or the Bible?If so -why would you do it?



 I did when in my 20s where the good words of the media were describing a muslim society so different from my daily experience among the immigrants of France or my travels to north africa
I read, i understood the BS being brainwashed to both muslims via the koran, and to native Europeans to ensure they do not fight their capitulation
Islam is "evil" by its own , from its birth and thru its aim of total expansion
Reading it also enables you to know more than the parrots repeating the pc nonsense.
I also read the bible and while the first book is "interesting".it clearly has no conquering aim vs the koran, and the new testament is so much kinder.
Anyway not a believer so...


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## bellenuit (24 May 2019)

basilio said:


> Check it out.
> 
> * What happened when I met my Islamophobic troll *
> Illustration: Guardian Design/Christophe Gowans
> ...




I expected this to be a description of when he finally met up with the so called "Islamophobic" troll and how he was able to show him the error of his ways. But there wasn't one refutation that I could see, except for throwing doubt on the accuracy of one posting by the troll that referred to someone as an Imam who actually wasn't.

_Mike had taken the video from a Channel 4 documentary about countering fringe extremists online and reposted it with the title “UK Imam says Sharia will take over Britain by force”, despite the fact that Abu Haleema wasn’t an imam._

Of course many of the people who post on Islam or Muslims are often anti-Muslim and may be aligned with or get exaggerated and even wrongly provocative information from right wing sites and right wing personalities. But as has been explained many times, conflating hatred of Muslims with genuine concern about Islam is something that has been promoted by the left and by Islamic extremists in order to shut down debate about the latter. The use of the term *Islamophobic* is one such deliberate conflation of the two and the Guardian is a prime example of a newspaper that continuously uses such a term in relation to both right wing nut cases who hate Muslims or moderate Muslims or ex-Muslims who expose truthfully what is wrong with Islam, particularly political Islam. Even this article throws  Ayaan Hirsi Ali into the mix with the comment "_or the prominent critic of Islam Ayaan Hirsi Ali_". I have yet to see any anti-Muslim rhetoric from Islam Ayaan Hirsi Ali but she sure has a lot to say about the evils of Islam, being an ex-Muslim who has suffered under Islam and constantly requires protection from Islamic radicals.

When has the Guardian stood behind the women protesters in Iran who are imprisoned and tortured for removing the hijab or is this nothing to do with Islam. Or the Pakistani Christian who was sentenced to death for blasphemy and only through intervention by the west managed to get out of her hell hole existence and migrate to Canada. Or the Egyptian atheist that Sam Harris (another Islamophobe according to TG) helped to escape after being threatened by death. Have these nothing to do with Islam and is criticism of such on a par with Muslim hatred. Yes they have reported on these, but do they not see the common factor to all these stories.


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## bellenuit (25 May 2019)

*We need to be able to criticise Islam – any definition of Islamophobia must recognise that*

*https://inews.co.uk/opinion/islamophobia-definition-parkfield-school-no-outsiders/*

_Accusations of Islamophobia are already used cynically to block investigators and human rights advocates. With this definition, their work could become unbearable and unsustainable. A Muslim youth worker who is helping me with some research tells me he is very worried that some supporters of the Islamophobia definition “just want to take back control. To stop the police and Government looking into forced marriages, Islamicist mosques and extremism, and the way young Muslims are controlled._


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## joeno (27 May 2019)

Some observations as someone who travels a lot:

The "islamic world" is diverse. It's not this one thing you either tolerate or despise. The sunni Muslims don't even consider Shiites fellow Muslims. And vice versa. Arabic muslims consider non-Arabic muslims to be "not the real Muslims". Berber-Arabic Muslims consider Saudis to be sexist pigs.

Pakistani Muslims for example, value their relations with Secular China more than say Turkish Muslims. Iran is deeply anti-Israel while Saudi's are pro Israel and anti-Iran.

Most of the sexism and "shitty people" found in Islam source from poor individuals with low education. The rich saudi asshole types are actually paper tigers in reality. Lebanese australians who have a bad reputation only because the refugees that migrated from Lebanon were the usually the poorest and not from the upper class of Lebanese society. Lebanon if you go there is an extremely tolerant place.

What I find amusing are people from western society who cannot tell the difference between good and bad. So they will either virtue signal and say how all Muslims are great and some Muslim guy who thinks women should be held as slaves is a decent bloke. Or they'll complain that all Muslims are bad terrorists. It's not so black and white.

tl;dr it's not Islam that's the problem. It more related to nationality and poverty


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## Sdajii (28 May 2019)

joeno said:


> Some observations as someone who travels a lot:
> 
> The "islamic world" is diverse. It's not this one thing you either tolerate or despise. The sunni Muslims don't even consider Shiites fellow Muslims. And vice versa. Arabic muslims consider non-Arabic muslims to be "not the real Muslims". Berber-Arabic Muslims consider Saudis to be sexist pigs.




When you say it's diverse, you're mostly talking about which other group each Muslim group hates the most. This means there's a common thread... that they all have enemies they hate. Violence and hatred is a very consistent theme across the Muslim world, which is not surprising when the religion commands them to literally exterminate their enemies, and even the slightest difference of opinion of the religion is punishable by death, which is why Muslims are often the biggest targets of Muslims. A difference of opinion of who to exterminate first isn't exactly a wonderful spectrum of diversity. Obviously many Muslim countries are quite safe to walk around in, but they still have an active agenda of exterminating people, and you don't want to put yourself in the firing line, and even in the safe countries, if you fail to walk on egg shells it's easy to end up dead. For example, in most of the safe Muslim countries, openly admitting you are gay is a death sentence. Openly saying you disagree that women are worth less than men is a death sentence. If you are Muslim, even if you didn't become one by choice (and the vast majority of Muslims didn't choose it), the reality for most of them in most countries, including the safe ones, is that they'll be killed by the government, or imprisoned if they're lucky. You can find exceptions but this is literally the case in the majority of countries and circumstances. So yes, if you watch what you say and are polite these places are pleasant and safe, but it's an awkward and strange sort of safety.

There are literally few exceptions to the rule that Muslim countries are more violent. Comparing Muslims living with any other religion (or just Muslims living with Muslims) you very consistently see much higher levels of conflict than with any other two religions coexisting, or with populations made up of primarily one non Islam religion. 



> Pakistani Muslims for example, value their relations with Secular China more than say Turkish Muslims. Iran is deeply anti-Israel while Saudi's are pro Israel and anti-Iran.




Yes, indeed, you will find many cases where Islamic countries hate other Islamic countries more than certain non Islamic countries. Some are more pragmatic than others.



> Most of the sexism and "shitty people" found in Islam source from poor individuals with low education.




It's not an exaggeration to say that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world are sexist. I wouldn't label them all 'shitty people' but they are undeniably sexist, even if they smile and act pleasantly. Islam is one of the most sexist of all religions and the most sexist of all the major religions. It bluntly says a woman's value is half of a man's and that men have complete control over women. Women must be subservient and if they step out of line they should be disciplined (beaten or kept isolated or whatever the man deems appropriate). The degree of sexism varies but the vast majority of Muslims are sexist and don't see men and women as equal.



> What I find amusing are people from western society who cannot tell the difference between good and bad. So they will either virtue signal and say how all Muslims are great and some Muslim guy who thinks women should be held as slaves is a decent bloke. Or they'll complain that all Muslims are bad terrorists. It's not so black and white.




There are certainly a lot of people in the first category, but not so many in the second. Literally no one in this thread has said anything at all like it (correct me if I'm wrong and missed someone saying such a thing). Only the bottom rung of bogan society has people who say things like 'all Muslims are terrorists', and those people aren't especially common. Of course, yes, those few who exist need to learn more, just as those who are at the opposite extreme do, but one is far more common than the other.



> tl;dr it's not Islam that's the problem. It more related to nationality and poverty




This is absolutely positively not true, and the evidence is completely overwhelming. Literally every single Islamic country was previously populated by people who had a more peaceful religion and culture. Literally. Every. Single. One. Look at the overall pattern of what happens, the conversion of non Islamic countries to Islamic countries has been going on for well over a thousand years and the pattern is remarkably consistent. The result is consistently more violent, and fairly consistently poverty increases (this biproduct of increased violence etc is fairly predictable). With such a clear correlation and such an obvious cause and effect relationship it's remarkable that someone who seems quite level headed, as you do, would miss this. Look at the correlation between Islam and conflict in the middle east, Asia and Africa (and look at the examples we are seeing of early stage conversion in Europe, which are much like the early stages were in Africa, Asia and the Middle East). The conversion consistently involves the use of terrorism, which isn't particularly surprising since the Koran literally commands members to use terrorism as a tool for conversion of populations, and it's a strategy which has been successfully employed by Islam since the very founder lead people to use it.


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> In Islamic countries that's true, in non Islamic countries they are becoming slightly more radical and the import of "refugees" from Islamic countries has allowed hard liners in here to spread the poison to the moderates.




Is someone still reading this !

I'm surprised the thread hasn't been deleted.


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## qldfrog (25 February 2020)

While we focus on the coronavirus, the green plague is moving on:
Last sunday, a knife attacker was killed by police after kniffing a tourist in the street out if the blue.
From what i know, the attacker was an afghan refugee.
Not exactly front news isn't it???
Of course, blamed on a mental condition..called a religion by me..
Sleep well australia, all is good
And yesterday's ABC front page was stating how worried the asio was of far right terrorism possibility...
They worry more about what may happen than what does happen..


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2020)

Interesting comment by Dutton that Islamic terrorism is "Left Wing" terrorism ?

Any thoughts on that ?


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## bellenuit (25 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting comment by Dutton that Islamic terrorism is "Left Wing" terrorism ?




I think labelling it Left or Right would be wrong. It is religious extremism that exhibits traits from both the Left and the Right.

You could call the suppression of homosexuality, womens' rights and freedom of religion (particularly no religion) as akin to what many extreme Right organisations also espound though perhaps not as vehemently. Then again, when it comes to these issues being perpetuated in the name of Islam, the far Left and Feminism are completely silent and it is the moderate Right and moderate Left that is willing the call Islam out. The far Left just shouts Islamaphobia when such issues are raised.


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2020)

I've always thought of Far Right extremism as revolving around the thoughts and teachings of a charismatic individual, whether that be the Fuhrer or a religious leader allegedly espousing the word of an an Almighty Being. Religious terrorism would fall into this category I believe. 

To find examples of really full on Left Wing terrorism you would have to go back to the Bader Meinhoff group in Germany, Red Brigades in Italy or Symbionese Liberation Army in the US, which all faded away in the 1970's.


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## Macquack (25 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting comment by Dutton that Islamic terrorism is "Left Wing" terrorism ?
> 
> Any thoughts on that ?



Yes, confirms that Dutton is a dick head..


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2020)

Macquack said:


> Yes, confirms that Dutton is a dick head..




Dutton is on the Right, so he obviously felt he had to attack the Left, but he mucked it up.


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## bellenuit (25 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I've always thought of Far Right extremism as revolving around the thoughts and teachings of a charismatic individual, whether that be the Fuhrer or ....




Mao and Lenin would also fall into that category, but were not labelled as far left extremists as such, yet millions died under their rule. But IMO that is mainly because the Left only recognises extremism when it comes from the Right.

Remember in Russia when the Communist Party diehards opposed Yeltsin's and Gorbachov's liberalisation.  These diehards, which up until then were seen as the hard Left, suddenly got labelled the hard Right. 

That's why I think using the word Right or Left is not something fixed, but very much dependent on ones point of view.


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Mao and Lenin would also fall into that category, but were not labelled as far left extremists as such, yet millions died under their rule. But IMO that is mainly because the Left only recognises extremism when it comes from the Right.
> 
> Remember in Russia when the Communist Party diehards opposed Yeltsin's and Gorbachov's liberalisation.  These diehards, which up until then were seen as the hard Left, suddenly got labelled the hard Right.
> 
> That's why I think using the word Right or Left is not something fixed, but very much dependent on ones point of view.




I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge Mao and Lenin and probably Putin as terrorists although they set themselves up as exalted and infallibe leaders so maybe that makes them Right Wing dictators ?

But anyway the lines are pretty blurred and a dictator is a dictator whether Left or Right.


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## wayneL (25 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Dutton is on the Right, so he obviously felt he had to attack the Left, but he mucked it up.



The extreme left coddles Islam for whatever reason, which may be the basis of his remarks.

But I wouldn't classify Islam itself as either left or right. It doesn't really fit with in our Western political paradigm as such.


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## dutchie (26 April 2020)

Secret info that the British public will never be allowed to receive
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ffice-a9483796.html?amp&utm_source=reddit.com

Pakistani Grooming gangs in the UK - the greatest cover up of the century.

*WHY ?*

Suffer the little children.


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## dutchie (20 July 2020)

500K victims over the last 40 years.
1/2 a million young girls! and the authorities/media have done nothing (and refuse to release a report on this scandal)

Please watch this:


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## wayneL (20 July 2020)

dutchie said:


> 500K victims over the last 40 years.
> 1/2 a million young girls! and the authorities/media have done nothing (and refuse to release a report on this scandal)
> 
> Please watch this:




Beat me to it.... Very confronting and distressing


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## DB008 (17 October 2020)

What is wrong with them? Low IQ? Inbreeding? Stuck in the 7th Century?


*Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing class images of Mohammed*​

A history teacher who opened a discussion with high school students on caricatures of Islam's Prophet Mohammed has been beheaded in a French street and police have shot dead the suspected killer, authorities say.​​The French anti-terrorism prosecutor's office said a murder investigation was underway after the incident in Conflans Sainte-Honorine, a suburb north-west of Paris.​​A police official said the suspect, armed with a knife and an airsoft gun, which fires plastic pellets, was shot dead after he failed to respond to orders to put down his arms, and acted in a threatening manner.​​It was about 600 metres from where the male teacher was killed.​​"A citizen has been murdered today because he was a teacher and because he taught freedom of expression," President Emmanuel Macron said near the school where the teacher was killed.​

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10...d-man-who-slit-teachers-throat-paris/12778064​


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## SirRumpole (17 October 2020)

DB008 said:


> What is wrong with them? Low IQ? Inbreeding? Stuck in the 7th Century?




Yes, yes, yes.

Add  brainwashed to that.


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## dutchie (18 October 2020)

The West is so weak.






Rɪᴄʜᴀʀᴅ Kᴇᴍᴘ ⋁

@COLRICHARDKEMP

Macron on Islamic terrorist beheading: “They won't win... We will act.” Unfortunately you won’t act. And you won’t act next time. Or the time after that.




Macron calls Paris beheading 'Islamist terrorist attack'
The teacher killed in a Paris suburb reportedly showed his pupils cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.
bbc.com


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## DB008 (20 October 2020)

*Sweden: Muslim migrant gangs terrorize streets with surge of
bombings and murders*​

In mid-September, Sweden’s Prime Minister Stefan Lofven finally admitted a connection between mass migration and crime — a fact he’d been ignoring for a long time, despite warnings and in the face of stark evidence. For example, in January, a huge explosion rocked Stockholm, and Lofven denied any link between mass Muslim migration and rising crime rates. Now what has happened to Sweden has become painfully obvious.​​Yet after “257 bombings and more than 300 shootings” last year, “*in a move that was seen as symbolic of Sweden’s ‘soft touch’, the suspects were released because prosecutors decided they hadn’t broken the law.”*​​


​The problem with Sweden’s “soft touch” is that it is only soft toward Muslim migrants, no matter what they do. Malmö is a heavily populated Muslim area, with no-go zones where residents are reportedly scared to even leave their homes. In 2018, a police station was bombed in Malmö. Virulent anti-Semitism is also increasingly open in Malmö — correlated with the Muslim migrant surge. Muslim demonstrators once screamed in public: “We’re going to shoot the Jews.” Years ago, Sweden’s minister for integration, Nyamko Sabuni, warned that Sweden has become a “*ticking time bomb*” of Islamic violence.​​The Swedish leadership cares nothing about the scores of innocent victims who have been harmed by Muslim migrant mafia groups.​​“How Sweden became a gangsters’ paradise: Europe’s most liberal country welcomed Middle Eastern refugees five years ago… but now it is being terrorised by migrant mafia clans – with police and politically correct government powerless,” by Jake Wallis Simons, Daily Mail, October 12, 2020:​​


> Migrant mafia gangs are terrorising Sweden’s streets with a surge of bombings and murders, forcing police chiefs in one of Europe’s most liberal countries to admit they are losing their grip on law and order.​



​


> Just five years after the country welcomed refugees with open arms, criminal clans from the Middle East, north Africa and the​Balkans are behind soaring crime rates in their once peaceful cities, police say, with 257 bombings and more than 300 shootings last year.​



​


> In one extraordinary incident in August, Gothenburg’s most notorious crime family, the Ali Khan gang, set up roadblocks in the northeast of the city, shining torches into cars to hunt for members of a rival mob.​



​


> Police broke up the checkpoints and made 20 arrests. But in a move that was seen as symbolic of Sweden’s ‘soft touch’, the suspects were released because prosecutors decided they hadn’t broken the law.​



​


> In an exclusive interview, Erik Nord, Gothenburg’s chief of police, told MailOnline: *‘These criminal clans have a completely different culture that makes them very difficult to tackle with normal police methods.*​





More on link below...

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2020/10/...ze-streets-with-surge-of-bombings-and-murders​


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## DB008 (23 October 2020)

*Charlie Hebdo Muhammad cartoons projected onto government buildings
in defiance of Islamist terrorists*



*Projection of controversial cartoons took place during national day of mourning for murdered teacher Samuel Paty*







Cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad were projected onto government buildings in France as part of a tribute to history teacher Samuel Paty, who was murdered by an Islamist terrorist last week.

The controversial depictions from the French satirical newspaper _Charlie Hebdo_ were displayed onto town halls in Montpellier and Toulouse for several hours on Wednesday evening, following an official memorial attended by Paty’s family and President Emmanuel Macron in Paris.
Paty was beheaded while walking home on Friday evening, just days after he showed _Charlie Hebdo_’s caricatures of Mohammad to pupils in a class about freedom of expression.

In a tribute to the slain teacher, Macron described him as a “quiet hero” who “embodied” the values of the French Republic. The president posthumously awarded Paty the Légion d'Honneur, France’s highest civilian honour.




“He was killed precisely because he incarnated the Republic. He was killed because the Islamists want our future,” Macron said.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...mmad-samuel-paty-teacher-france-b1224820.html


.​


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## DB008 (29 October 2020)

Breaking News

*INFORMATION EUROPE 1 - Attack at Notre-Dame de Nice: two dead and one wounded, the author shot and wounded*​

Thursday morning, around 9 am, a man attacked several people in the Notre-Dame basilica in Nice, according to information from Europe 1. 

According to the first report, two people died, including a woman, who was beheaded by the assailant, and one person was injured. The assailant was arrested 10 minutes later by the police, who had to open fire to subdue him. The assailant was shot and wounded.

According to our information, a man attacked several people with a knife on Thursday morning in the Notre-Dame basilica in Nice. Two people died, including a decapitated woman, and one person was injured. Interior Minister Gerald Darmanin announced that he would chair a crisis meeting at Place Beauvau. The assailant was shot and taken to hospital.


*https://www.europe1.fr/faits-divers...-de-nice-un-mort-et-plusieurs-blesses-4001878*​


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## DB008 (30 October 2020)

Update on the story above (post #3,429)

Have seen pictures online of the "attempted decapitation". Gruesome. 




*Three dead in Nice after knife attack at Notre Dame church, France raises security alert to highest level*​

France has lifted its security alert status to the highest level after a knife-wielding attacker shouting "Allahu Akbar" killed three people in a church in the city of Nice.​​France's chief anti-terror prosecutor Jean-François Ricard said the attacker was a Tunisian national, born in 1999, who had recently entered France from Italy.​​A Tunisian security source and a French police source told Reuters the suspect's name was Brahim Aouissaoui.​​Mr Ricard said one of the women had her throat cut. A police source earlier told Reuters that the victim had been beheaded. France's Le Monde newspaper called it an "attempted" beheading.​​Mr Ricard said the attacker arrived in Italy by reaching the Mediterranean island of Lampedusa on September 20, and then travelled to Paris on October 9.​​The travel information came from an Italian Red Cross document found on the attacker, he said.​​The Associated Press quoted Italian media reports as saying the attacker spent two weeks in quarantine on a ship off the eastern coastal town of Bari in September, before being expelled from Italy and heading to Paris.​​Tunisia's anti-terrorism court prosecutor began a forensic investigation into "the suspicion that a Tunisian committed a terrorist operation abroad", Mohsen Dali, spokesman for the specialised counter-militancy court, said in Tunis.​​​​*Atrocity compared to beheading of teacher*​​​Nice's Mayor, Christian Estrosi, described the attack in his city as terrorism, and drew comparisons with the beheading of French teacher Samuel Paty earlier this month in Paris.​​Mr Estrosi said the attacker had repeatedly shouted "Allahu Akbar", even after he had been detained by police.​​One of the people killed inside the church was believed to be the church warden, Mr Estrosi said, adding that a woman had tried to escape from inside the church and had fled into a bar opposite the building.​




https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-29/france-nice-knife-attack-three-dead-several-injured/12828942



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## DB008 (30 October 2020)

*Muslims have ‘right to punish’ French, says Malaysia’s Mahathir*

*Malaysia’s former leader Mahathir Mohamad says Muslims have a right ‘to kill millions of French people’ after deadly attack in Nice.*​

Malaysia’s former prime minister Mahathir Mohamad said Muslims have a right to “kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past”.​​Mahathir’s comments came as an attacker with a knife killed at least three people and wounded several others at a church in the French city of Nice on Thursday in an incident the city’s mayor described as an act of “terrorism”.​​Mahathir, 95, a respected leader in the Muslim world, said he believed in freedom of expression but it should not be used to insult others.​​“Muslims have a right to be angry and to kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past. But by and large, the Muslims have not applied the ‘eye for an eye’ law. Muslims don’t. The French shouldn’t,” Mahathir said in a blog post on Thursday, which he also posted on Twitter.​​“Since you have blamed all Muslims and the Muslims’ religion for what was done by one angry person, the Muslims have a right to punish the French,” he said, referring to a man who decapitated a French teacher earlier this month.​​Mahathir, who served as Malaysian premier twice for a total of 24 years, said that French President Emmanuel Macron was “not showing that he is civilised”, adding he was “very primitive”.​​“The French should teach their people to respect other people’s feelings,” he said.​​Twitter initially flagged Mahathir’s tweet about killing “millions of French people” as “glorifying violence” but did not remove it.​​However, shortly afterwards the tweet was deleted entirely.​





Several Muslim-majority countries have denounced remarks by French officials, including Macron, defending depictions of the Prophet Muhammad. The caricatures are seen as blasphemous by Muslims.​​The dispute flared after a French teacher who showed his pupils satirical cartoons of the prophet during a class lesson was later beheaded in the street by an attacker of Chechen origin.​​French officials said the killing was an attack on the core French value of freedom of expression and defended the right to publish the cartoons. Macron has also said he would redouble efforts to stop conservative Islamic beliefs subverting French values.​​

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...ight-to-punish-french-says-malaysias-mahathir



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## wayneL (30 October 2020)

Well done diversity idealogues. Having an epiphany yet?


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## wayneL (8 December 2022)

Evil, well dunno, but certainly making inroads in Victoriastan


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