# Book Review - Way of the Turtle



## wayneL (22 May 2007)

I'm very fussy about what books I read on trading. I've probable flicked through just about every book there is on trading.... with my BS meter switched on the high sensitivty. Not many get past it onto my bookshelf.

Anywayz, I just bought Way of the Turtle by Curtis Faith beacause it really passed the flick through BS meter filter.

I thought I'd give a bit of a progressive review of it as I progress...stay tuned.


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## tech/a (22 May 2007)

*Re: Book Review _ Way of the Turtle*

Found it in a WA Bookshop myself when there last week.
Read it last week also.
Leave it to you Wayne to review.


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## nizar (22 May 2007)

*Re: Book Review _ Way of the Turtle*



wayneL said:


> I'm very fussy about what books I read on trading. I've probable flicked through just about every book there is on trading.... with my BS meter switched on the high sensitivty. Not many get past it onto my bookshelf.
> 
> Anywayz, I just bought Way of the Turtle by Curtis Faith beacause it really passed the flick through BS meter filter.
> 
> I thought I'd give a bit of a progressive review of it as I progress...stay tuned.




Looking forward to the review...


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## rowes (22 May 2007)

Hi,

Its not the book but thought i might add it as it is related to the topic.
Some may find it interesting.

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/files/turtlerules.pdf

Cheers


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## wayneL (23 May 2007)

Been "taking the long road" between Perth and Geraldton, so haven't had a chance to get far, but a quote that caught my eye flicking through.

_"Trading is not a sprint; it's boxing. The market will beat you up, screw with your head, and do anything it can to defeat you. But when the bell sounds at the the end of the twelfth round, you must be standing in the ring in order to win."
_
Kinda reminds me of Che Guevara's. "_the first duty of the guerrilla fighter is survival" _


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## wayneL (23 May 2007)

Just found out why a futures contract is sometimes referred to as a "car".

It is because originally, one contract is the amount of commodity that would fit into one rail car. eg 5000 bushels, 1000 bbl etc. Hence "cars".

This is a really good book and is satisfying to any pedantic tendencies as well. lol


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## CanOz (23 May 2007)

wayneL said:


> Just found out why a futures contract is sometimes referred to as a "car".
> 
> It is because originally, one contract is the amount of commodity that would fit into one rail car. eg 5000 bushels, 1000 bbl etc. Hence "cars".
> 
> This is a really good book and is satisfying to any pedantic tendencies as well. lol




Well I'm staying tuned Wayne...due for more books soon, although "Trading in the Zone" is taking a while. 

Cheers,


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## wayneL (24 May 2007)

CanOz said:


> Well I'm staying tuned Wayne...due for more books soon, although "Trading in the Zone" is taking a while.
> 
> Cheers,



If you get this book you'll appreciate *chapter 2* then - Taming the Turtle Mind. A short treatise on cognitive biases that traders use to sabotage themselves. Generally, I think my psychology is pretty good and/or know my strengths and weaknesses well enough to trade to advantage.

This chapter has caused me to re-evaluate that. There are areas where I can certainly improve my "head game". 

Not a comprehensive thesis on psychology but succinct and to the point.

Quote I like from the chapter:

_"...In fact some traders believe in there particular style with such fervor(sic) that all others are considered inferior. I hold no such belief. Anything that works, works. Doggedly sticking to a method to the exclusion of all others is foolish."_

Amen


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## wayneL (24 May 2007)

rowes said:


> Hi,
> 
> Its not the book but thought i might add it as it is related to the topic.
> Some may find it interesting.
> ...



rowes,

Interesting that in this book, Curtis remarks that the original rules still work, but that due to a change in the nature of markets, there are now much better trend following algorithms. 

This is born out by Tech/a's experiment.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (24 May 2007)

wayneL said:


> If you get this book you'll appreciate *chapter 2* then - Taming the Turtle Mind. A short treatise on cognitive biases that traders use to sabotage themselves. Generally, I think my psychology is pretty good and/or know my strengths and weaknesses well enough to trade to advantage.
> 
> This chapter has caused me to re-evaluate that. There are areas where I can certainly improve my "head game".
> 
> ...




Exactamento!


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## tech/a (24 May 2007)

> "...In fact some traders believe in there particular style with such fervor(sic) that all others are considered inferior. I hold no such belief. Anything that works, works. Doggedly sticking to a method to the exclusion of all others is foolish."




By the end of the book its plain to see why!
I doubt as you get into the book that its anything like you expect (anyone reading it).


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## wayneL (24 May 2007)

tech/a said:


> By the end of the book its plain to see why!
> I doubt as you get into the book that its anything like you expect (anyone reading it).



This is no monopoly Tech. Feel free to give your opinion on it as well... or anyone else for that matter.


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## tech/a (24 May 2007)

What and spoil the punch line?


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## >Apocalypto< (24 June 2007)

tech/a said:


> By the end of the book its plain to see why!
> I doubt as you get into the book that its anything like you expect (anyone reading it).




Tech that quote is somthing you should really think about with you last little tiff with Magdoran. eg Gann


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## theasxgorilla (24 June 2007)

wayneL said:


> rowes,
> 
> Interesting that in this book, Curtis remarks that the original rules still work, but that due to a change in the nature of markets, there are now much better trend following algorithms.
> 
> This is born out by Tech/a's experiment.




It seems to be the case as with his examples in the book he uses data from 28 high-volume futures markets between 1996 and 2006.  Thats what I'm finding to be the best part about the book.  Due to his ongoing work at TradingBlox is seems that he has an up-to-the-moment grasp on how trend following still works, when it hasn't worked and why, and then why it works again.  There are a lot of stark home truths in this book, and I'm not even half way through yet!


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## tech/a (24 June 2007)

Trade_It said:


> Tech that quote is somthing you should really think about with you last little tiff with Magdoran. eg Gann




Trade it.
Ive looked at Gann often over the last 13 yrs.

You may well find after 13 yrs your view may well be as mine is.

The point I make with ALL analysis is NOT THE ANALYSIS itself but the successful APPLICATION of the analysis in a consistantly profitable way.

As Waves/Wayne and I have pointed out with so many "Pressure Points" possible its not practical to trade.
Ive not seen its practical application YET.

Let me know when you can and I'll be happy to learn.


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## nizar (24 June 2007)

theasxgorilla said:


> It seems to be the case as with his examples in the book he uses data from 28 high-volume futures markets between 1996 and 2006.  Thats what I'm finding to be the best part about the book.  Due to his ongoing work at TradingBlox is seems that he has an up-to-the-moment grasp on how trend following still works, when it hasn't worked and why, and then why it works again.  There are a lot of stark home truths in this book, and I'm not even half way through yet!




I really have to get my hands on this book.
I think i'll head down to Borders 2mrw.

Im not sure if it was Curtis Faith who was the most successful of the turtles. On some accounts, i hear it was Jerry Parker.

This guy still trades until today, and manages more than US$1billion.

Any thoughts?


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## wayneL (24 June 2007)

tech/a said:


> By the end of the book its plain to see why!
> I doubt as you get into the book that its anything like you expect (anyone reading it).



Since I knew the basic outline of the turtle story, it was mostly entirely as expected.

The bolt from the blue was the epilogue. I liked what he had to say there, though not likely to align him with the majority in the guru business.


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## wayneL (24 June 2007)

nizar said:


> I really have to get my hands on this book.
> I think i'll head down to Borders 2mrw.
> 
> Im not sure if it was Curtis Faith who was the most successful of the turtles. On some accounts, i hear it was Jerry Parker.
> ...



Without knowing the facts fully. I think Curtis was the most successful while they were all still with Dennis and Eckhart.

Curtis subsequently moved off to other fields, while Parker stayed on in the industry.


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## theasxgorilla (24 June 2007)

nizar said:


> I really have to get my hands on this book.
> I think i'll head down to Borders 2mrw.
> 
> Im not sure if it was Curtis Faith who was the most successful of the turtles. On some accounts, i hear it was Jerry Parker.
> ...




This is a good point to raise and I think you're right.  And as Wayne said, as a Turtle, he was the most successful.  Although he took a 15 year hiatus from trading between '88 and '03.  I notice that in the book he makes a lot of reference to the '87 crash and the effect that it had on his account...70% drawdown he approximates.  Then a year or so later he stops trading....hmmm.


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## nizar (24 June 2007)

Wayne, so wats your final review on this book?

What would you give it out of 10 ?


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## wayneL (25 June 2007)

nizar said:


> Wayne, so wats your final review on this book?
> 
> What would you give it out of 10 ?



I would give it 7.5/10

I think it skimps on some points that he could have gone further with (Same with any book I suppose). But gives plenty of avenues for further research if interested.

Given the mystique around the whole Turtle experiment, I'd still put down as a must read, as much for the turtle story as the trading information in it.


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## jempol (27 July 2007)

Look like this book so much inspiration.
Gotta to have this one for private collection.
Thanks for the information


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## chops_a_must (11 February 2008)

wayneL said:


> I would give it 7.5/10
> 
> I think it skimps on some points that he could have gone further with (Same with any book I suppose). But gives plenty of avenues for further research if interested.
> 
> Given the mystique around the whole Turtle experiment, I'd still put down as a must read, as much for the turtle story as the trading information in it.




Just finished reading it. Haven't been able to put it down for the last 3 days.

I would really like to have read more in there about the trading stories, and things to do with the turtles that weren't strictly trading related. Just seemed like you could get a grip on the turtle system if it had just been written in 10-15 pages or so. Which is probably why it worked so well... the simplicity of the method.

What I found staggering was the results of the automatic exit at 80 days.

It was also nice knowing why my arbitrary discretionary trades have worked for me. The philosophy behind it is on the same track.

It has given me a lot of ideas to potentially trade with, and given me ideas that were not written down, but are apparent because they weren't...

I wish I had the skills to be able to make the indicators for some of the things used in the methods.

Has anyone created these? Or actually tried trading the turtle method? I'm thinking of paper trading variants, with set rules. Should be fun.


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## blaze87 (11 February 2008)

i read/scrimp thru both way of the turtle and the complete turtletrader and find it to be much better than most other technical bs. just wondering if any1 has acutally tried applying it.
from what i can gather , a huge capital is required to follow the rules of the turtles.


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## Porper (11 February 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> Has anyone created these? Or actually tried trading the turtle method? I'm thinking of paper trading variants, with set rules. Should be fun.




I have tried backtesting using the Turtle method, even changed some parameters but I never get a profit, still I am a beginner at backtesting so take that with a pinch of salt.

Haven't read the book yet, on the to do list.


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## chops_a_must (11 February 2008)

Porper said:


> I have tried backtesting using the Turtle method, even changed some parameters but I never get a profit, still I am a beginner at backtesting so take that with a pinch of salt.
> 
> Haven't read the book yet, on the to do list.



He says that is the outcome for a lot of people, but it is the position sizing that makes the difference.

The market filters may also lead to something. I'd be more inclinced to use the sector index as a filter, rather than the overall market.


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## Porper (11 February 2008)

chops_a_must said:


> He says that is the outcome for a lot of people, but it is the position sizing that makes the difference.
> 
> The market filters may also lead to something. I'd be more inclinced to use the sector index as a filter, rather than the overall market.




Well I supposed you can play with the thousands of input variations if you are into that, and probably tinker until it backtests positive, I have tried and get to near enough breakeven, not good in a trending market like we have just had.Be happy to know if anybody can get a better result.Anyway off topic so I'll shut up


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## Kauri (11 February 2008)

I may be off track but I think that since it has been as widely publicised and available as it is it has lost it's edge???  
Cheers
.........Kauri


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## chops_a_must (11 February 2008)

Kauri said:


> I may be off track but I think that since it has been as widely publicised and available as it is it has lost it's edge???
> Cheers
> .........Kauri




From memory that's what Van Tharp says, but he says the strategy still works on longer time frames.

I'd be surprised if you couldn't get it to work at some level, but it would probably have to be vastly different from the rigid original rules. Breakout trading was massively lucrative 12-18 months back, and breakdown trading has been the same over the last few. Anecdotally of course...


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## Mike Trader (24 February 2008)

theasxgorilla said:


> This is a good point to raise and I think you're right.  And as Wayne said, as a Turtle, he was the most successful.  Although he took a 15 year hiatus from trading between '88 and '03.  I notice that in the book he makes a lot of reference to the '87 crash and the effect that it had on his account...70% drawdown he approximates.  Then a year or so later he stops trading....hmmm.




Ive read "Way of the Turtle" fine if you've got a million to start with and can tolerate 17 losing trade in a row. You need deep pockets and enough confidence to get though that - which seems a huge ask. He also says you need to trade every signal - you never know which is the big winner. I don't think I'd have the stamina to trade Donchian channels the way he has traded them. "Whatever works" with your own personality seems to be the best advice I've heard. But the book does have lots of interesting insights and definitely worth reading.Mike


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## Timmy (24 February 2008)

I haven't read the book.  But has anyone tried the "Turtle Soup" strategy or any variants?


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## Nick Radge (24 February 2008)

I traded the full Turtle method back in 2001 for 6-months. I was lucky to last that long. Very difficult and even with a 100% systematic approach I found the workload quick high.


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## BentRod (26 February 2008)

I have just finished reading this book, bit disappointed with it to be honest.

I wanted to hear more inside stories about the whole turtle experiment not just another system text book with stuff that has been covered before.


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## barmix (29 February 2008)

Bentrod 

If you want more information on the whole turtle experiment may I suggest you read "The Complete TurtleTrader" by Michael Covel.

Cheers
barmix


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