# I inherited my father's shares but don't know what he owned



## Double D (21 December 2013)

Hello to you all,
A few months ago my father died. He left me his shares, stocks, notes and debentures. However he apparently left no details of what he owned. He was a very private man and didn't usually use a broker and preferred to deal directly with companies.
I am not the executor of his Will. My half sister is the executor and I have been told by a close friend of my father's that I can't trust her. I need to find out what my father owned so that I know what he wanted me to have.
I would really appreciate any advice.
Thank you.


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## Valued (21 December 2013)

Double D said:


> Hello to you all,
> A few months ago my father died. He left me his shares, stocks, notes and debentures. However he apparently left no details of what he owned. He was a very private man and didn't usually use a broker and preferred to deal directly with companies.
> I am not the executor of his Will. My half sister is the executor and I have been told by a close friend of my father's that I can't trust her. I need to find out what my father owned so that I know what he wanted me to have.
> I would really appreciate any advice.
> Thank you.




I think you need to see a wills and estates solicitor. Don't go to a suburban generalist firm. Get someone who is a specialist in these matters.


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## Garpal Gumnut (21 December 2013)

Double D said:


> Hello to you all,
> A few months ago my father died. He left me his shares, stocks, notes and debentures. However he apparently left no details of what he owned. He was a very private man and didn't usually use a broker and preferred to deal directly with companies.
> I am not the executor of his Will. My half sister is the executor and I have been told by a close friend of my father's that I can't trust her. I need to find out what my father owned so that I know what he wanted me to have.
> I would really appreciate any advice.
> Thank you.




He was "a very private man". He was also a muppet, and will cause you pain, as will your sister.

Perhaps plan on divorcing yourself from this family or getting a good estate lawyer and deep pockets.

Families like yours provide much amusement and profit amongst lawyers and brokers. 

gg

p.s. Is this fair dinkum? 

gg


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## tech/a (21 December 2013)

Every year he will have notification of company AGM's
So watch his mail box.


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## springhill (22 December 2013)

Double D said:


> Hello to you all,
> A few months ago my father died. He left me his shares, stocks, notes and debentures. However he apparently left no details of what he owned. He was a very private man and didn't usually use a broker and preferred to deal directly with companies.
> I am not the executor of his Will. My half sister is the executor and I have been told by a close friend of my father's that I can't trust her. I need to find out what my father owned so that I know what he wanted me to have.
> I would really appreciate any advice.
> Thank you.




There are FAQ sections on the Slater & Gordon and Armstrong Lawyers websites regarding contesting/removing a Will's Executor, but it seems you would need solid grounding to do so. 

Doubtful if the words of your father's friend would fit the criteria.

http://www.armstronglawyers.com.au/index.php?action=help&helpcatID=625&helpID=3685

http://www.slatergordon.com.au/wills/contesting

Run a google search on 'contesting executor of will australia' or the like.


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## Valued (22 December 2013)

He needs to speak to a lawyer. He may not want to contest the executor. He just seems to want what his father has left for him that is presumably located in a will. If it is not in a will then he is likely in more in need of a lawyer so that the lawyer can explain the rules of division when a person dies intestate (without a will).


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## kahuna1 (22 December 2013)

Gee ...


Tax office.

Explain who you are, prove who you are.

If the company paid a dividend the TAX office will have a record of it.

It will be matched against your late fathers income tax return each year.

DO NOT see a lawyer. A waste of time.
DO not see an accountant even worse waste of time.

Call the ATOP, explain your predicament and they will assist.

You should be provided with full copies if needed of all tax returns up to 10 years old. 

Go to the itemized income side which should detail the dividends.

Of course this will only cover companies that pay dividends. If your father did not have a sponsoring broker it will come down to the individual holdings of each company which is a nightmare.

I suspect you will find 95% of all value will be covered via companies that pay a dividend vs those who do not. 

If you go to a solicitor it will cost you around $5,000- for something you can do via a few hours work.

Accountant about the same, and I am not even sure they would use this process ....  another way is to go to your fathers old accountant and ask for the last 5 years income tax returns. Confirm the two against each other, tax office and the accountants records ? But if he didn't use an accountant it leaves only the Tax office which will have a record of dividends being paid against a tax number so you then can go to the individual companies, identify who you are and determine the holdings that way.

A mess but only way to go. Sorry estimate on cost given this messy last tactic ,,, if your father held 20 companies ... the accountants and lawyers fees $10,000- ....

Do it yourself then you are sure. Each company has a share registry run by someone else, so if you see income from say BHP they have all shares held and managed by a company say computer share or whatever. You do not call BHP, they will direct you to the registry for their shares who handles them and you go from there. This company should be able to provide you with a  statement and a holding statement ect ect.

You will need advice if you get shares as the sale of them will be a tax event I believe. CGT will occur, not sure if this occurs on transfer via a will, suspect NOT .... but you inherit them for tax purposes at the price your father purchased them so it IS a big consideration to SELL them or NOT. Whilst CGT is discounted by 50% ... to maximize this it may be beneficial even to put them into a SMSF if possible again a tax question. As the tax in there is 15% ... its lower, but if your reaching retirement age and going into pension side of retirement you may be able to avoid any tax if your smart as pension side of a SMSF you can avoid it other than on the income you pay yourself.

Complex one. Do it yourself. If you find some, get a tax experts advice prior to selling.

Not that I know anything.


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## Smurf1976 (22 December 2013)

Just thought I'd explain a few terms that have been used in other posts as I'm assuming the original poster has no experience with shares and may not know what they mean. Everyone else here will know all this, but the OP might not.

AGM = Annual General Meeting. Companies will send out information prior to such meetings and this will be sent either by post or email. Most shareholders don't actually attend such meetings, there is no requirement to do so, but those who wish to attend may do so. The information sent out will consist of the company's annual report, information detailing when and where the meeting will be held, and possibly a few forms. Note that you should not attend an AGM in regards to the issues you have, the purpose of such meetings relates to the company and its' activities not individual shareholders.

Dividends = Money paid to shareholders by the company. The source of such money is profits made by the company in its' business activities. Not all companies pay dividends but many do.

CGT = Capital Gains Tax. In short, if shares are sold at a profit then CGT is payable to the ATO (Australian Taxation Office - same people who take the money from your normal income tax). The ATO can provide various documents explaining the rules (check their website www.ato.gov.au). Alternatively, an accountant can sort this out but there will be a fee for doing so.

SMSF = Self Managed Superannuation Fund. This means a fund managed directly by the individual rather than simply investing your money with someone else who then manages the actual investments.

As for what you should do, it partly depends on how much you think the shares might be worth? If we're talking about $5000 worth then it's not worthwhile spending money on lawyers etc as this will end up costing as much as the shares are worth thus leaving you with no benefit. But if you are thinking that they might be worth a fortune then that does change things somewhat.

Note that once you do track down the shares, the documentation will not show how much they are worth in $ terms. It will show only how many shares are owned. You can check the current value of each share using the Australian Securities Exchange (ASX, more commonly known to most people as "the stock exchange") website at www.asx.com.au which has information on the most recently traded price for each company. There is no cost to access this information, it's available to anyone, but you obviously need to know which companies you have shares in first.

If your father was a passive investor (someone who buys shares and keeps them for a very long time) rather than an active share trader (someone who regularly buys and sells) then it's quite likely that he would have owned shares mostly in big, long established companies which pay dividends. Companies such as Woolworths, BHP, Telstra, any of the "big 4" banks etc. If that's the case then identifying dividends from tax records will point you in the direction of most, possibly all, the shares owned. This won't work if he owned shares in companies which don't pay dividends however - but most likely he would have invested substantially or totally in companies which do pay dividends as this is a common approach particularly amongst older people.


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## noirua (22 December 2013)

Double D said:


> Hello to you all,
> A few months ago my father died. He left me his shares, stocks, notes and debentures. However he apparently left no details of what he owned. He was a very private man and didn't usually use a broker and preferred to deal directly with companies.
> I am not the executor of his Will. My half sister is the executor and I have been told by a close friend of my father's that I can't trust her. I need to find out what my father owned so that I know what he wanted me to have.
> I would really appreciate any advice.
> Thank you.




You may get somewhere through joining the ASA: http://australianshareholders.com.au/asa_site/


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## pixel (22 December 2013)

Double D said:


> Hello to you all,
> A few months ago my father died. He left me his shares, stocks, notes and debentures. However he apparently left no details of what he owned. He was a very private man and didn't usually use a broker and preferred to deal directly with companies.
> I am not the executor of his Will. My half sister is the executor and I have been told by a close friend of my father's that I can't trust her. I need to find out what my father owned so that I know what he wanted me to have.
> I would really appreciate any advice.
> Thank you.




IMHO, Kahuna's advice covers the issues best and I would definitely second his suggestions to avoid lawyers and accountants when you can get the work done yourself.

One facet could make your research a tad time-consuming though: If your late father did indeed avoid brokers and deal with individual companies directly, there may be a large number of HINs, most of them issuer-sponsored, as opposed to CHESS-sponsored records. You will be able to establish that as soon as you have the details of the first few stocks he owned:
If the HIN (Holder Identification Number) begins with the letter "X" and is the same for several different shares, you're in luck because the "X" means it is indeed CHESS-sponsored. If the letter is an "I" for "Issuer-sponsored", you'll need to search by name - and that can be tedious across the range of share registries.

You can, however, start by checking every "X" HIN that you come across on each of the websites of share registries. These are the main Australian ones - a complete list, as far as I'm aware:

Advanced Share Registry: http://www.advancedshare.com.au/Home.aspx
Computershare: http://www.computershare.com/au/Pages/default.aspx
Boardroom: http://www.boardroomlimited.com.au/
Link Market Services: https://www.linkmarketservices.com.au/corporate/home.html
Security Transfer: https://www.securitytransfer.com.au/

If the majority of stocks are indeed "I"-registered, this method will get you at least the numbers held and past acquisition (and disposal) dates.

Good luck with your "hunt". Please let us know the outcome, or ask more questions if we can save you time.


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## noirua (22 December 2013)

Your local CAB office should be able to help as wills are one of the things they are experienced at. This is the WA website:
http://www.cabwa.com.au/index.htm


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## Double D (23 December 2013)

Hello again,

I just wanted to thank all of you who replied to my post. I didn’t expect to get such detailed responses and I’m really grateful.

Last Friday I received an email from my father’s lawyer. I thought I would copy and paste a relevant part:

_Clause 5.12
We have yet to establish exactly what shares the deceased held and the executor is making enquiries in this regard.  We have sighted some paperwork in relation to Tabcorp (as to 1,518 shares) and General Mining but we are uncertain if any shares were actually held in the latter corporation or whether the material sighted was of a marketing nature only.  When we have identified all shareholdings we will need your instructions on whether -

1.	you want all shares transferred to you as the new shareholder;  or 

2.	you want us to arrange to sell all shares on your behalf.  This firm has a contact at Ord Minnett who has assisted us with many estate matters and who conducts the sale of shares on-line for a reasonable fee.  

We will write to you again as soon as it becomes clearer what shareholdings the estate holds._ 

I received some very thorough advice on how to track down his shares and also on selling them with regards to CGT. The total value of the shares could be something or nothing. My father didn’t generally keep money in banks and was a keen investor. Last Christmas he told me he was going to invest heavily in mines in Mongolia.

I guess I will just have to wait and see what the lawyer and my half-sister (executor) come back with before starting any search. The whole thing is complicated by the fact that I’m not currently living in Australia. I’m a High School teacher in Bangkok but from reading your advice I might be able to do this from here with a lot of phone calls and time spent online. 

As you will have noted the Tabcorp shares are not worth enough to start thinking about hiring lawyers. However at least any correspondence I have with my father’s lawyers are free and part of the Will.

Thanks once again for your advice. I haven’t had to deal with anything like this before and it will be an interesting learning curve.

Have a great Christmas!


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## Double D (23 December 2013)

springhill said:


> There are FAQ sections on the Slater & Gordon and Armstrong Lawyers websites regarding contesting/removing a Will's Executor, but it seems you would need solid grounding to do so.
> 
> Doubtful if the words of your father's friend would fit the criteria.
> 
> ...




Thank you for your advice. 

I checked the websites you recommended and I think I will now just have to hope that everything has been done properly. I was informed that a grant of Probate has been given and as you said I don't really have anything solid to challenge her role as executor.

As well as the words of my father's friend I had to ask her three times for the name of his lawyer. She also said she had no idea where the Will was despite personally knowing the lawyer. I hope I'm just being a little paranoid.

Have a great Christmas!


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## Double D (23 December 2013)

noirua said:


> Your local CAB office should be able to help as wills are one of the things they are experienced at. This is the WA website:
> http://www.cabwa.com.au/index.htm




Thanks for your advice. I did get in touch with the CAB but it seems they only give advice at appointments. I'm currently working in Bangkok and I was told they can't help me.


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## Double D (23 December 2013)

kahuna1 said:


> Gee ...
> 
> 
> Tax office.
> ...




Thank you for all that detailed information. It's a lot to absorb but it's a great starting point. I added another post this morning detailing things a little more. Your advice will really help!


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## Double D (23 December 2013)

Smurf1976 said:


> Just thought I'd explain a few terms that have been used in other posts as I'm assuming the original poster has no experience with shares and may not know what they mean. Everyone else here will know all this, but the OP might not.
> 
> AGM = Annual General Meeting. Companies will send out information prior to such meetings and this will be sent either by post or email. Most shareholders don't actually attend such meetings, there is no requirement to do so, but those who wish to attend may do so. The information sent out will consist of the company's annual report, information detailing when and where the meeting will be held, and possibly a few forms. Note that you should not attend an AGM in regards to the issues you have, the purpose of such meetings relates to the company and its' activities not individual shareholders.
> 
> ...




Thank you for explaining a few things for me. I have never dealt with shares before and it is all going to be a steep but interesting learning curve.


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## Double D (23 December 2013)

pixel said:


> IMHO, Kahuna's advice covers the issues best and I would definitely second his suggestions to avoid lawyers and accountants when you can get the work done yourself.
> 
> One facet could make your research a tad time-consuming though: If your late father did indeed avoid brokers and deal with individual companies directly, there may be a large number of HINs, most of them issuer-sponsored, as opposed to CHESS-sponsored records. You will be able to establish that as soon as you have the details of the first few stocks he owned:
> If the HIN (Holder Identification Number) begins with the letter "X" and is the same for several different shares, you're in luck because the "X" means it is indeed CHESS-sponsored. If the letter is an "I" for "Issuer-sponsored", you'll need to search by name - and that can be tedious across the range of share registries.
> ...




Thank you for the information and those website addresses. I added an extra post this morning and I will let you know how my "hunt" goes.


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## tech/a (23 December 2013)

You will not attract CGT
The sale of the shares to liquidate any
$$s won attract tax either.
They are proceeds of an inheritance.


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## Double D (2 January 2014)

Thanks for the advice.
I think it's all going to take months and the whole tax thing is something I'll have to work out.



tech/a said:


> You will not attract CGT
> The sale of the shares to liquidate any
> $$s won attract tax either.
> They are proceeds of an inheritance.


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