# Why do people down-ramp?



## agro (12 October 2008)

i have often wonder what is the motive behind one down ramping, i came up with two thoughts, people..

1 - have lost money on it in the past and want to confirm their beliefs for selling and/or

2 - know it's a good company and hence down ramp to push the price lower so they can buy in it themselves

other's thoughts on why people down ramp?

i know when i ramp a stock i want it to go up because i hold it..


----------



## Pommiegranite (12 October 2008)

agro said:


> i have often wonder what is the motive behind one down ramping, i came up with two thoughts, people..
> 
> 1 - have lost money on it in the past and want to confirm their beliefs for selling and/or
> 
> ...




Because its easier to be 'right' about a company not getting it right. Gives some people the opportunity to say "told you so".


----------



## cutz (12 October 2008)

Well i guess if their short.


----------



## stockGURU (12 October 2008)

agro said:


> other's thoughts on why people down ramp?




What, in your opinion, constitutes downramping?



agro said:


> i know when i ramp a stock i want it to go up because i hold it..




Do you really think ramping a stock has any effect on the share price?


----------



## agro (12 October 2008)

stockGURU said:


> What, in your opinion, constitutes downramping?
> 
> bringing up negative points about a company without considering the positives
> 
> Do you really think ramping a stock has any effect on the share price?




it can draw potential buyers


----------



## stockGURU (12 October 2008)

agro said:


> bringing up negative points about a company without considering the positives




My understanding is that downramping is being openly bearish on a stock without providing any information or analysis to support your point of view. 

Are those who are openly bullish on a stock also posting about the negatives? Do you do this?

IMO, you need people to point out both the positives and negatives to provide balance.



agro said:


> it can draw potential buyers




So you feel like you need to trick potential buyers into purchasing a stock so you can benefit financially?

You'd probably make a good used car salesman.


----------



## Nyden (12 October 2008)

I can ask the same of you agro - you did just admit that you ramp ...

Do people (especially in all this mess) ramp to convince *themselves* that they've made the right choice?


Sigh, why is it okay for (perma)bulls to ramp, and be excited at gains whilst things are booming ... but when the trend turns, suddenly they can't handle it reversed? I'm not terribly upset at what's happening, and I'm happy to start seeing everything become more affordable, and to get back in line with wage growth. Does this make me "evil"?


 ... I guess empathy is something I lack, some of the time 

Lest we not forget as well, that people not invested during boom times lost money as well (to inflation); and perhaps all those home-buyers boasting about their gains back in the day was also hurtful and insensitive. *Mass* ignorance isn't an excuse for individual ignorance


----------



## nunthewiser (12 October 2008)

agro said:


> i have often wonder what is the motive behind one down ramping, i came up with two thoughts, people..
> 
> 1 - have lost money on it in the past and want to confirm their beliefs for selling and/or
> 
> ...




Hi , is quoting facts classed as downramping ? or is it called providing an unbiased and factual viewpoint ? i do understand slaggin a stock without a factual reason is rather silly, but would rather here a balanced view on a stock rather than a one eyed holders viewpoint , 

call me silly but i,d actually rather here the WORST a company get to offer rather than the good before placing MY hard earned cash in it. but hey im just a bogan that reckons that hype and opinion means squat when it comes to looking at a company .

all the best hope this dont offend any more sensitive viewers 
blessya


----------



## chops_a_must (12 October 2008)

Nyden said:


> I can ask the same of you agro - you did just admit that you ramp ...



LMFAO!!!



agro said:


> i know when i ramp a stock i want it to go up because i hold it..



You aren't the brightest are you?

So any stock you hold, you are attempting to ramp?

Please, do tell us which stocks you are attempting to ramp.


----------



## marklar (12 October 2008)

Umm.... because they can?

Seriously it's the opposite of ramping a stock, to achieve a particular price to buy or sell, an attempt to influence sheeple.

m.


----------



## Trembling Hand (12 October 2008)

Agro your are a funny one.

People post their views because they fall into two categories,

One, that's what they believe

Two, that's what they believe but are opposite to those in category one.

Pretty simple. :


----------



## agro (12 October 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Agro your are a funny one.
> 
> People post their views because they fall into two categories,
> 
> ...




what explains the motive behind this? is it in the best interest of the shareholders?

i mean, what makes an individual want to come into a thread and start expressing views of opposition when quiet frankly they have no ownership of the stock?


----------



## nunthewiser (12 October 2008)

agro said:


> what explains the motive behind this? is it in the best interest of the shareholders?
> 
> i mean, what makes an individual want to come into a thread and start expressing views of opposition when quiet frankly they have no ownership of the stock?




refer to post#8


----------



## chops_a_must (12 October 2008)

agro said:


> what explains the motive behind this? is it in the best interest of the shareholders?
> 
> i mean, what makes an individual want to come into a thread and start expressing views of opposition when quiet frankly they have no ownership of the stock?




Lol.

Is it called due diligence?

I mean, why does Buffet analyse a company without owning the stock? What a blockhead!


----------



## prawn_86 (12 October 2008)

agro said:


> what explains the motive behind this? is it in the best interest of the shareholders?
> 
> i mean, what makes an individual want to come into a thread and start expressing views of opposition when quiet frankly they have no ownership of the stock?




Ever thought that is is merely in the interst of fairness and discussion.

Or the fact there is a reason that they do not hold. If you had it your way Agro, every thread would be holders posting away in blissful ignorance, oblivious to any possible problems.

You have admitted you are a ramper, and its obvious you cannot discuss a stock you hold objectively.


----------



## Nyden (12 October 2008)

agro said:


> what explains the motive behind this? is it in the best interest of the shareholders?
> 
> i mean, what makes an individual want to come into a thread and start expressing views of opposition when quiet frankly they have no ownership of the stock?




Surely people would want to know the potential dangers in a stock; opposing views are incredibly important!

You believe that people should leave a thread alone, and let it be a pit of ramping? Gosh, wouldn't that just look like a hotcopper thread  A whole lot of starry-eyed nonsense, with very little fact.

You must either be a *very* foolish investor, or are someone who is hurting really bad right now, and is looking for someone to blame.


----------



## IFocus (12 October 2008)

Agro I get no pleasure from watching holders get burnt really, *but I get really F*$ken angry when I see others talking up a stock that is clearly getting dumped for what every reason*, down ramping WTF, try reality, try the biggest credit contraction the world has ever seen.

End of rant, Agro please lean from this there are serious lessons to be learnt here all the best.


----------



## prawn_86 (12 October 2008)

Nyden said:


> You must either be a *very* foolish investor, or are someone who is hurting really bad right now, and is looking for someone to blame.




Yep, seems like a classic case of denial to me


----------



## Trembling Hand (12 October 2008)

agro said:


> what explains the motive behind this? is it in the best interest of the shareholders?
> 
> i mean, what makes an individual want to come into a thread and start expressing views of opposition when quiet frankly they have no ownership of the stock?




Agro I have been questioning that very same thing. 

It is obvious that many a person fall in love with ideas. Whenever someone tries to post the opposite, that is their love is not the correct way to go about making money in this game, they are talking to someone in denial. And most certainly wasting time, other than some sick enjoyment out of other peoples pain and a good education in how not to trade.

I would like to point out to you that you very aggressively dumped on MichaelDs comments that FMG was a dud as far as share price trend was heading some 100% higher than it is now. He has been proven correct while you have lost money, had a margin call, dumped stock, re-entered and again sitting on a huge % loss. Yet you are still blaming the messenger of infidelity rather than your lover.

No wonder you get depressed over the share market. Depression can come about when you realise the ideals you hold have become disconnected from reality. Unfortunately that is still not a cure.

Best of luck.


----------



## gav (12 October 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> I would like to point out to you that you very aggressively dumped on MichaelDs comments that FMG was a dud as far as share price trend was heading some 100% higher than it is now. He has been proven correct while you have lost money, had a margin call, dumped stock, re-entered and again sitting on a huge % loss. Yet you are still blaming the messenger of infidelity rather than your lover.




That would be like me saying a month ago <insert company here> is a dud as far as share price goes, and then saying I'm correct because the share price dropped!  With current market sentiment, just about EVERYTHING is getting hammered. Predicting a falling SP is going to fall more short term means nothing about the actual company.

OK my turn....  BHP is a dud and totally overvalued IMO.

If BHP falls even lower next week, does that mean I'm right, and BHP is a dud???

Oh, and then I can tell all the shareholders "I told you so".....


----------



## chops_a_must (12 October 2008)

gav said:


> That would be like me saying a month ago <insert company here> is a dud as far as share price goes, and then saying I'm correct because the share price dropped!  With current market sentiment, just about EVERYTHING is getting hammered. Predicting a falling SP is going to fall more short term means nothing about the actual company.
> 
> OK my turn....  BHP is a dud and totally overvalued IMO.
> 
> If BHP falls even lower next week, it doesnt mean I'm right!



I think the point is not acknowledging other view points, then crying foul, and blaming everyone but yourself when you have been proven wrong, yet not admitting it and continuing on in the same manner.

You or I could predict whatever the hell we want. But we would be stupid to stick to an analysis that was proven entirely wrong.


----------



## Trembling Hand (12 October 2008)

gav said:


> That would be like me saying a month ago <insert company here> is a dud as far as share price goes, and then saying I'm correct because the share price dropped!  With current market sentiment, just about EVERYTHING is getting hammered. Predicting a falling SP is going to fall more short term means nothing about the actual company.




Gav you have completely missed the point. 

There are times to be risk seeking and times to be risk adverse. BUT the number one thing to do is to protect capital.

Now is obviously the time to be protecting capital and be risk adverse. When EVERYTHING, as you say, is down trending the proper thing to do is to stand aside. That is what the hot money is doing just have a look at the AUD for evidence.

That is what people do that actually make money out of the markets. They ride trends. EVERYTHING is down trending that is why people "down-ramp" because they cannot believe the stupidity of people holding things that get cut by 80% and they still love the stock.

Now whether or not we start from Monday on a ripping up trend is of no concern to people that make consistent money from the market. As they will have plenty of cash left to ride that trend. The stubborn will miss that and make no money this year and most likely be lucky to get back to break even. Many more will never get their money back.

That is why people "down-ramp" they know there is better thing to do with their loyalty than give it to a falling stock.


----------



## cordelia (12 October 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> Hi , is quoting facts classed as downramping ? or is it called providing an unbiased and factual viewpoint ?




You have drawn attention to a contentious issue "quoting facts". Exactly what does that mean....Few posters qualify their claims with supporting evidence....namely legitmate referencing....

At all times it is important to question claims regarding a particular stock, particularly in the absence of substantiating evidence in the form of referenced articles or links to company reports...

The acronym "DYOR" is brandied about with unwanten abandon. Few truly understand what that means......

Downrampers, whatever their purpose, feed off people's lack to take responsibilty for their own financial situation.....

If you need to ask someone else for advice in investment you should not be investing......


----------



## theasxgorilla (12 October 2008)

Just a quick note from the mod team...obviously plenty of thoughts on this topic, lively discussion etc. Please do mindfully observe our "play the ball not the man" rule.  This is a preemptive post as much as anything.

Thanks, carry on.


----------



## nioka (12 October 2008)

cordelia said:


> If you need to ask someone else for advice in investment you should not be investing......




That is not right. It is OK to ask for advice if you need help in making up your mind. Everyone needs some advice sometimes. Maybe if you are not prepared to ask for advice sometimes THEN you should not be investing.


----------



## IFocus (12 October 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Gav you have completely missed the point.
> 
> There are times to be risk seeking and times to be risk adverse. BUT the number one thing to do is to protect capital.
> 
> ...





TH top post as always..................................................


----------



## Sean K (13 October 2008)

There is rarely any real ramping or downramping on this forum. The vast majority of posts are factual and objective, and if not, people are directed to another site.


----------



## treefrog (13 October 2008)

IFocus said:


> TH top post as always..................................................




agrees with IFocus...................................................


----------



## zolow (13 October 2008)

kennas said:


> There is rarely any real ramping or downramping on this forum. The vast majority of posts are factual and objective, and if not, people are directed to another site.




I agree with you on this one Kennas. IMO, most ramping, up or down, is usually picked up pretty quickly by the users and put into question. 

Usually you can identify a ramp by reading the post below it that usually says something along the lines of: 

"you haven't provided any basis for your argument..."

This is all conjecture anyway... IMO the stock market leads and the messages on this board follow, not than the other way around. For me, ramping is more an annoyance to the general discussion of a stock rather than acually having an effect on the price of a stock.

Z


----------



## gav (13 October 2008)

Trembling Hand said:


> Gav you have completely missed the point.
> 
> There are times to be risk seeking and times to be risk adverse. BUT the number one thing to do is to protect capital.
> 
> ...




Great post, and thank-you for clearing it up.  For a trader, I understand the importance of a stop loss, it limits losses and helps when people are 'loyal' to a particular stock.  But should investors use a stop?  If they are in it for the long term, they are more concerned with the SP of 5yrs time, not today or next month.  Should investors also set stops, just with more lee-way, to protect their capital?  If an investor keeps getting stopped out, should they just sit back and wait, or rethink the way they invest?  I have so much to learn....


----------



## aleckara (13 October 2008)

gav said:


> Great post, and thank-you for clearing it up.  For a trader, I understand the importance of a stop loss, it limits losses and helps when people are 'loyal' to a particular stock.  But should investors use a stop?  If they are in it for the long term, they are more concerned with the SP of 5yrs time, not today or next month.  Should investors also set stops, just with more lee-way, to protect their capital?  If an investor keeps getting stopped out, should they just sit back and wait, or rethink the way they invest?  I have so much to learn....




Well a lot of people learn trading the hard way. The stops that you took have probably helped you protect your money a lot more had you not had them.

Learn from your mistakes. Why did you fail? While I'm not the expert trader (far from it) thats advice that applies to everything.


----------



## prawn_86 (13 October 2008)

gav said:


> If an investor keeps getting stopped out, should they just sit back and wait, or rethink the way they invest?  I have so much to learn....




*off topic*

Obviously it varies with different strategies.

With the benefit of hindsight, selling out 6 months ago (or earlier) when things started to get hairy would have been a good idea.

Just because an investor is buying for long term does not mean they should just 'set and forget'. They should be constantly re-evaluating their stocks and the overall market conditions and sentiment. EG - some stocks like BNB will probably never recover to anywhere near their previous highs.


----------



## basilio (21 October 2008)

There is so much psychology and confidence  in the stock market and our participation in it. Almost by definition after we have  taken a position in a stock we firmly believe it is going to go well. After all we (believe) we have checked it carefully, it's good value, and so on.

And yet in a collapsing market everything falls because the "sensible" players recognise that sentiment and confidence will beat seemingly rational analysis any day. So they sell regardless of long term quality.

There is another point particularly appropriate in the market as it has developed recently. Simply there is now far more speculation and pure gambling than longer term investing. The speculators, for example hedge funds, day traders  et al. want to see the 30% returns in days and weeks rather than wait for  actual production and profits. Instant gratification, instant returns.

For example how would anyone here react if they believed that a 10 c stock could double or treble in a week because  lots of enthusiastic  newbies  believed it was on the verge of a "great announcement". ( I'm sure most forum members saw the  pump and dump stock emails from the last couple of years)

This also applies to companies which manipulate their earnings to book profits that come from thin air or just very sympathetic revaluations. So what we end up seeing is far more money being made from the trading in bits of paper than anything real at the other end. 

Which of course is why the house of cards is currently collapsing..


----------



## Boggo (21 October 2008)

The funny side of it....


----------



## seasprite (21 October 2008)

I have sold a stock , then a couple of days later I ramped the stock down, not for my benefit but purely due to the reason I sold it in the first place . That reason was directors were planning to issue more shares and dilute value.

It did not bother me if anyone took any notice , however the shares are currently trading at half the value I sold for and those that did decide to sell up before the plunge , good one. Those that did not , maybe the price might come back up you never know.


----------



## Spaghetti (23 October 2008)

Downramp? Do you mean this?

_Ramper_

Buy xxx and you will be rich in two months and be able to retire and spend your life jetsetting all for the grand sum of $10,000. You will soon find out that this stock will end all your financial troubles and will return 4,000%. Nobody knows about it yet, be the first to enter this multibagger, before the Chinese come shopping. If the price goes down be sure to stock up because all the smart money like Buffet buy at the bottom. 

_enter downramper_

But the company has nothing of any value? How can it go up up 4,000%? On what basis, the only evidence is that they have a few grains of gold left over from panning 120 years ago and a yellowed map with arrows of where Lassister was last spotted.

_ramper_

Why do you come on here downramping when you do not own the stock. I know, you are trying to get people to sell so you can buy cheaper. You are a criminal and I am going to report you to ASIC. Nobody listen to the downrampers, they just want to buy your stock cheap and make 5,000%. This is a long term hold folks, you will not regret it. I spoke to the company yesterday and they assured me the report will be out in a matter of days and was told by someone in the know that it wll be good news and the market will wake up to it's potential.

_enter downramper_

I am not downramping, just stating the facts

_ramper_

You would not know the facts if they hit you in the face. I know because I have connections in the industry. Also I spoke to a geo and he confirms the potential and says it is going to fly. Also heard that Chinese are interested and should be hearing something within next few weeks. See I KNOW the facts, whereas you do not.

_enter downramper, some weeks later_

Still no Chinese, s/p down 200%, so what is up?

_ramper gone (with profit) so a convert (with losses) answers now_

Has nothing to do with the Chinese or the fact they haven't got jorc yet or any decent gold finds, it is the market in general that caused the s/p to fall. The company will bounce back and those still holding will soon make 4000% and you are just jealous.

ah  the evils of the downramper, ruining make believe stories, Santa is real you know!


----------



## skyQuake (23 October 2008)

Spaghetti said:


> Buy xxx and you will be rich in two months and be able to retire and spend your life jetsetting all for the grand sum of $10,000. You will soon find out that this stock will end all your financial troubles and will return 4,000%...




Ok you've sold me already! Didn't bother reading the rest, so whats this xxx stock you're talking about? :


----------

