# Fake news and its effect on the community



## basilio (20 November 2016)

The internet allows anyone and everyone to have their say. It also allows anyone to say almost anything they want with little fear of consequence. 

For a long time now it has become clear that a number of people are just making up stuff to trash people, organisations or ideas they want to attack.  Or if they don't actually make them up they create a completely distorted story that bears no semblance to what might have happened.



> President Obama addressed this issue in a press conference in Germany.
> 
> * Barack Obama on fake news: 'We have problems' if we can't tell the difference*
> 
> ...




What do you think ? Can you tell the difference between truth and BS ? Does it actually matter ? Who cares anyway ?


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## SirRumpole (20 November 2016)

basilio said:


> The internet allows anyone and everyone to have their say. It also allows anyone to say almost anything they want with little fear of consequence.
> 
> For a long time now it has become clear that a number of people are just making up stuff to trash people, organisations or ideas they want to attack.  Or if they don't actually make them up they create a completely distorted story that bears no semblance to what might have happened.
> 
> ...




Whenever I read noco I know the difference !

Yes of course it matters. We need to be well informed otherwise the vested interests including politicians will put it all over us.

If something looks bogus, best to try and confirm it from a reputable source. I think a lot of people are too lazy to do this though.


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## CanOz (20 November 2016)

It's interesting really, these people that generate false news are using the same sensationalist effects that real news use to drive traffic and therefore ad revenue or potential revenue....we need real effective sites like snopes that can fact check in real time....


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## explod (20 November 2016)

Interesting you raise this subject Bas as I had been musing the same of late.  A lot on it on social media, this I thought relevant:



> nmewn's picture
> nmewn Nov 19, 2016 8:48 PM
> I would like to take this opportunity to thank (yes, thank) the Establishments Press Corp for being the boorish, venal, closeted, bigoted, self-aggrandizing, condescending, echo chamber inhabiting pack of fools who have ever taken a breath of my air and I would like them to know that they still breathe my air.
> 
> ...




 It seems fairly plain that many of the news reports on the wars, particularly the Middle East are slanted towards US ideals also.


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## Smurf1976 (20 November 2016)

Like most people, there are relatively few things that I know enough about to be certain of the facts based on my own knowledge. Same for everyone - nobody's an actual expert on everything from medicine to engineering to fashion to endangered species.

Whenever I see something in the news that I do know a lot about there's almost always an error or at least missing information of importance in the reporting. Almost always.

On that basis I long ago concluded that if the things I know about are always reported inaccurately or at least with missing information then logically so too will everything else be reported in the same manner unless it's something extremely straightforward (eg sports scores would be hard to misrepresent as would the winning numbers of a lotto draw). 

That's for the mainstream media and it won't be any better from another source. There's accurate information out there but there's an awful lot of nonsense around on practically any subject since no matter what the issue there will be someone with something to gain from misrepresenting it and/or those reporting haven't got a clue about the subject anyway. 

We live in a world where information about anything is an order of magnitude more accessible than even 20 years ago but where real knowledge and understanding seems increasingly rare. Even where you might expect real knowledge these days that's often not the case.

30+ years ago newspapers could report hard facts but these days that's removed (dumbed down) in favour of generic statements lest anyone can't do basic maths or know which way is up. End result is people think they're well informed when in reality they've barely scratched the surface.


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## SirRumpole (20 November 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Like most people, there are relatively few things that I know enough about to be certain of the facts based on my own knowledge. Same for everyone - nobody's an actual expert on everything from medicine to engineering to fashion to endangered species.




Yes, but there is a difference between lax reporting and deliberately fake news, which is in effect propaganda.

 This is becoming more common as journalism is being downgraded and the cub reporters just lap up press releases and report them as fact. Sure it's a fact that these press releases are what the politicians/business/special interest groups have said but people don't seem to be checking the facts, they just print the media release.

The disappearance of the ABC Fact Check is just one example of how the politicians are preventing us from getting the truth.


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## noco (20 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, but there is a difference between lax reporting and deliberately fake news, which is in effect propaganda.
> 
> This is becoming more common as journalism is being downgraded and the cub reporters just lap up press releases and report them as fact. Sure it's a fact that these press releases are what the politicians/business/special interest groups have said but people don't seem to be checking the facts, they just print the media release.
> 
> The disappearance of the ABC Fact Check is just one example of how the politicians are preventing us from getting the truth.




Rumpy, you know as well as I do, the socialist left wing ABC fiddle with the true facts......Asking Fact Check to check the ABC is like putting the fox in charge of the chickens.

Control the media and you can control the naive with left wing propaganda....I repeat myself again.....It is in the Fabian DNA......They just keep chipping away.......They are  the wolves in sheep's clothing.


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## basilio (20 November 2016)

The issue of Fake news or lies  is broader than slack reporting or an incapacity to accurately understand technical issues.
What we are seeing now is a host of actors who deliberately create falsehoods and incessantly put  them into the internet. The more outrageous the lie the quicker it gets circulated .  The more lies that are spread the harder it is to work out what is reality any more. 

The  Birther conspiracy against President Obama. The incessant stories of how Michelle Obama is a guy, that Hilary kills babies for breakfast and reheats them for lunch. The made up  stories of Donald Trump. The whole Briebart news site.

From my observations there are many people who now swallow whatever drivel is thrown up because it suits their belief system. They refuse to acknowledge they are believing lies and that the people the now accept as authorities are liars. 

Did you know Hilary Clinton is The Devil ?


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## SirRumpole (20 November 2016)

noco said:


> Rumpy, you know as well as I do, the socialist left wing ABC fiddle with the true facts......Asking Fact Check to check the ABC is like putting the fox in charge of the chickens.
> 
> Control the media and you can control the naive with left wing propaganda....I repeat myself again.....It is in the Fabian DNA......They just keep chipping away.......They are  the wolves in sheep's clothing.




That didn't stop Coalition pollies quoting Fact Check in Parliament when it suited them.


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## cynic (20 November 2016)

There are times when I have encountered situations where mainstream media intentionally reported misinformation, usually for political reasons, and at other times for the purposes of protecting large multinational corporate interests.

There's nothing new here. As for anyone being able to express themselves liberally via social media, all I can say is thank God (or whatever entity or  nonentity one chooses to believe/disbelieve in).

At least sometimes one can discern some true information (information that is unlikely to ever be published via mainstream media).

As far as I can tell, the mainstream media is far more concerned with influencing the behaviour of the populace, than it is with the transparent and impartial repoorting of events.


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## noco (20 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> That didn't stop Coalition pollies quoting Fact Check in Parliament when it suited them.




Perhaps on that odd rare occasion they may have been right......And what did the Coalition quote may I ask?

I am surprised as Fact Check is an arm of the Labor Party.


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## moXJO (20 November 2016)

The media rarely deal with facts. Journalists routinely write bs and I have had a few friends sue them successfully. Journalists are slightly above cockroaches, who are slightly above politicians.
And it's always been a case of never believe anything on the net without checking.


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2016)

Aren't there laws against misrepresentation in the media ?

If not, there should be.


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## Tisme (21 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Aren't there laws against misrepresentation in the media ?
> 
> If not, there should be.




There was a time a few decades ago when people were touting the advent of the professional journalist via the universities and a new era of unbiased reporting. It quickly became evident that neutral reporting was in itself considered biased by those who thought their cause was not being adequately weighted, especially if you owned a newspaper empire, 35% of dumbf$@k voters and a Liberal Party of Australia. 

When I was learning how to design computers and how to program them way back when our schooling system was still banning calculators, but allowing slide rules in leaving and matriculation exams, we were taught that data is what you feed into a computer program and after all the contextual bias of the programmer out comes information for fun, profit, benevolence and mischief.... just like how our brains have been programmed by our parents, peers and trauma, etc.


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## basilio (21 November 2016)

I think this is getting a bit off course. 

Certainly the mainstream media has become more careless and more focused on click bait. And it certainly seems easier for  rubbish or wrong stories to get a run.

But in 2016 the internet offers anyone the opportunity to be a publisher or tell stories.  On top of that anyone else can simply copy these stories onto their website and pass them on with no consequence. How easy is that ?

On top of that many people have turned off the main media and been exposed to internet stories.  Facebook in particular has been a medium for spreading many of the false or misleading stories.

The question remains. What effect is this having on our community ?

Hint. Think of the Jerry Springer show


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## Tisme (21 November 2016)

basilio said:


> On top of that many people have turned off the main media and been exposed to internet stories.  Facebook in particular has been a medium for spreading many of the false or misleading stories.




I disagree. Apart from everyone knowing it's "farcebook", the articles that attempt to have value are generally linked just like people do in this discussion board. When you see that it is actually a fabrication from BS factories like Newscorp, News of The World, etc you immediately discard it as fanciful nonsense, once again just like, say when Noco posts his Bolt et al diatribe links.

Twitter is more literal when posted from the horse itself. Once again it's a personal bias that lets you believe it or not; e.g. I follow Abbott, Shorten, Jelly on Plate Turnbull, Rudd, Gillard, etc and even my meagre intellect can tell who the pompous, dirty rotten low down lying b4astards amongst them are: = 1) all of them 2) repeat


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## noco (21 November 2016)

Tisme said:


> I disagree. Apart from everyone knowing it's "farcebook", the articles that attempt to have value are generally linked just like people do in this discussion board. When you see that it is actually a fabrication from BS factories like Newscorp, News of The World, etc you immediately discard it as fanciful nonsense, once again just like, say when Noco posts his Bolt et al diatribe links.
> 
> Twitter is more literal when posted from the horse itself. Once again it's a personal bias that lets you believe it or not; e.g. I follow Abbott, Shorten, Jelly on Plate Turnbull, Rudd, Gillard, etc and even my meagre intellect can tell who the pompous, dirty rotten low down lying b4astards amongst them are: = 1) all of them 2) repeat




You forgot to include the BS told by that commo paper the Guardian which many of you lefties refer to from time to time.


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## Tisme (21 November 2016)

noco said:


> You forgot to include the BS told by that commo paper the Guardian which many of you lefties refer to from time to time.




Them too. .... have I ever referred to the Guardian articles when my tongue isn't in my cheek? You do know that the Guardian is an LGBTxxxx girls brigade propaganda sheet n'est pas?


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## cynic (21 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Aren't there laws against misrepresentation in the media ?
> 
> If not, there should be.




There are laws against many things, and yet somehow crimes still occur and the perpetrators don't always get brought to account.


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2016)

cynic said:


> There are laws against many things, and yet somehow crimes still occur and the perpetrators don't always get brought to account.




True, but it's good to see that at least some people are taking action against fake news.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-20/facebook-outlines-steps-to-fight-fake-news/8040404


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## Ves (21 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Aren't there laws against misrepresentation in the media ?
> 
> If not, there should be.



Why?  Wouldn't that be limiting free speech?


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## cynic (21 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> True, but it's good to see that at least some people are taking action against fake news.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-20/facebook-outlines-steps-to-fight-fake-news/8040404




Some might see that as a step towards elevating the integrity of content, but I see the stifling of freedom of expression as the more likely outcome. 

Some carefully considered regulation against rampant and blatant abuse can be helpful, but I seldom see sufficient care being employed when these "knee jerk" reactions occur.

But we can, of course, wait and see if your confidence proves to be justified.


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2016)

Ves said:


> Why?  Wouldn't that be limiting free speech?




Yes I know it's a vexed subject, but seriously should people be allowed to make up any cr@p they like ? There has to be some deterrent or liars will get into positions of high executive power.

Err, hang on a sec.


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## Ves (21 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes I know it's a vexed subject, but seriously should people be allowed to make up any cr@p they like ? There has to be some deterrent or liars will get into positions of high executive power.
> 
> Err, hang on a sec.



With idealistic concepts such as freedom of speech there is always a trade-off,   if a person is allowed to say anything they wish without restriction,  then there is always going to be the potential for someone else to be disadvantaged or harmed in some circumstances.

It has been interesting of late that certain media outlets and social groups have been ruthless in their argument for freedom of speech in some areas,  but increasingly wanting to restrict it in others.


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2016)

Ves said:


> It has been interesting of late that certain media outlets and social groups have been ruthless in their argument for freedom of speech in some areas,  but increasingly wanting to restrict it in others.




Hah, indeed yes, like One Nation shutting down a press conference when faced with a few hard questions.


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## noco (21 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Hah, indeed yes, like One Nation shutting down a press conference when faced with a few hard questions.




Rumpy, you have been a very naughty boy in making people believe  the whole of One Nation has been dragged into some sort  a press shut down for not answering hard questions....Pauline Hanson was not involved in that press conference so why try implicate her and One Nation ?.....One reason and one reason only was to discredit One Nation.....Not a very nice way to go about things  really...What cad you are.

This is a personal event for Senator Rod Culleton to take responsibility for something that happened in the past over a $7.50 key and it will go to the court for settlement.

Pauline Hanson, as you well know, is not prepared to stand by her Senator for legal fees or any other matter that may arise in the court.

So I suggest you with draw your post and apologise.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...larious-press-conference-20161102-gsgjee.html


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## McLovin (21 November 2016)

Ves said:


> With idealistic concepts such as freedom of speech there is always a trade-off,   if a person is allowed to say anything they wish without restriction,  then there is always going to be the potential for someone else to be disadvantaged or harmed in some circumstances.




That's why freedom of speech is limited. Even in the USA, speech as expression is protected, speech as conduct isn't: Only the actor on stage can yell "fire" in a crowded theatre. The US is far to dogmatic and zealous about the Bill of Rights. It's now at the point where a bunch of religious nuts can picket a (heterosexual) dead solider's funeral with "God hates fags" placards because of their misinterpretation of the Bible and they cannot be told to stop because it infringes their First Amendment rights.



Ves said:


> It has been interesting of late that certain media outlets and social groups have been ruthless in their argument for freedom of speech in some areas,  but increasingly wanting to restrict it in others.




Oh yeah, I bet if the Islamic Weekly was advocating Australia becoming an Islamic country the tune on free speech would change very quickly.


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## Ves (21 November 2016)

McLovin said:


> That's why freedom of speech is limited. Even in the USA, speech as expression is protected, speech as conduct isn't: Only the actor on stage can yell "fire" in a crowded theatre. The US is far to dogmatic and zealous about the Bill of Rights. It's now at the point where a bunch of religious nuts can picket a (heterosexual) dead solider's funeral with "God hates fags" placards because of their misinterpretation of the Bible and they cannot be told to stop because it infringes their First Amendment rights.



Yep,  there was a very good article re the distinction between speech as expression and speech as action on another site I regularly read  (as part of the unnamed "big issue" that many Conservatives are up in arms about at the moment).   Unfortunately it's behind a pay wall so I am unable to link it.


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## bellenuit (21 November 2016)

One of the problems with banning articles that deliberately misrepresent facts or are complete fakes is that the act of banning them adds credence to what the articles say. The news will get out anyway (from private blogs etc.) but this time will be bannered with the sub-heading "What the Government (or whoever) Tried to Prevent You Reading".

The best solution is to educate people in bull**** detection. People should exhibit a high degree of scepticism to everything that appears on a site that is known to have an agenda.


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## skc (21 November 2016)

It's difficult if not impossible to regulate the source of fake news... it's simply too numerous and distributed to control. Plus no one would have the time and resource to fact check everything.

I think Facebook should have an obligation to manage this issue. May be it simply needs a "Doubtful", "Fake" or "I am not sure" button (similar to "Like") as an option for each news piece being shared. An article with too many of these negative reactions would at least alert the reader that the contents may be sus.

Apparently, much of the fake news are being passed on / shared by people who are proponents to such view. E.g. Trump supporters pass on news that smear Clinton, tin-hat brigade sharing news on UFO, chemtrails etc etc. So the above will probably help some portion of truely neutral readers identify possible fake news, but those who want to believe will seek out news that conform with their own views anyway.


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2016)

skc said:


> It's difficult if not impossible to regulate the source of fake news... it's simply too numerous and distributed to control. Plus no one would have the time and resource to fact check everything.




You probably don't have to check the sources of all fake news, just take one or two of them to court, force them to admit that they published b.s., fine them millions and others will learn the lesson p.d.q.


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## cynic (21 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You probably don't have to check the sources of all fake news, just take one or two of them to court, force them to admit that they published b.s., fine them millions and others will learn the lesson p.d.q.




Good luck with that!

And here's some material to help you on your way:

http://www.disclose.tv/


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## pixel (21 November 2016)

skc said:


> It's difficult if not impossible to regulate the source of fake news... it's simply too numerous and distributed to control. Plus no one would have the time and resource to fact check everything.
> 
> *I think Facebook should have an obligation to manage this issue. May be it simply needs a "Doubtful", "Fake" or "I am not sure" button (similar to "Like") as an option for each news piece being shared. An article with too many of these negative reactions would at least alert the reader that the contents may be sus.*
> 
> Apparently, much of the fake news are being passed on / shared by people who are proponents to such view. E.g. Trump supporters pass on news that smear Clinton, tin-hat brigade sharing news on UFO, chemtrails etc etc. So the above will probably help some portion of truely neutral readers identify possible fake news, but those who want to believe will seek out news that conform with their own views anyway.



Your last paragraph hits it on the head.

I doubt that a "Doubt" button would work. Facebookers "with an agenda" would simply go around and mark as "fake" everything they don't like. It would simply multiply what the self-righteous minorities do now with flaming and trolling against established Science. Be it the Ark Replica with its claimed "proof" exhibits, anti-abortion, right to lifers, or any trolls in between. 
You can't legislate intelligence, nor can you regulate what can or cannot be believed. Pandora's box is open, the contents splashed all over the www, and the result is Anarchy. We have to learn - and teach our kids - to live with it.


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## pixel (21 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> You probably don't have to check the sources of all fake news, just take one or two of them to court, force them to admit that they published b.s., fine them millions and others will learn the lesson p.d.q.




Yeah, that might work! (NOT!)
Read up on the state of affairs between Capilano and the serial pest blogger claiming the honey is poisoned. How long, if ever, will it take to obtain a conviction? And if they are successful and the judgment goes in their favour to the tune of a $Million, what do you think will happen? 
I'll tell you: The blogger will declare bankruptcy, close his website and open another one under a different name, peddling the same guff. 

But a few Lawyers will drive around in a new Beemer or Porsche.


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## qldfrog (21 November 2016)

pixel said:


> Yeah, that might work! (NOT!)
> Read up on the state of affairs between Capilano and the serial pest blogger claiming the honey is poisoned. How long, if ever, will it take to obtain a conviction? And if they are successful and the judgment goes in their favour to the tune of a $Million, what do you think will happen?
> I'll tell you: The blogger will declare bankruptcy, close his website and open another one under a different name, peddling the same guff.
> 
> But a few Lawyers will drive around in a new Beemer or Porsche.



And in most cases like the above the easier way out would be to prove by unbiaised check/test that the allegations were false; Once you fails that, the story spread especially when you just have press release denials
And how do you read the news: Pixel claims allegation of *poisoned *honey, i read allegation of using honey coming from places where chemical forbidden to be used in most western countries are used and possibly  tainting the imported honey; not exactly the same....two views two interpretations

Capilano is a bad example in my opinion as for honey, it is easy to find unbiaised check and release full clear disclaiming facts; 
[which has definitively NOT been done by Capilano so the way this company is digging its own grave IMHO;Report by Choice were at best ambigious as I read them and the obstruction on the court process is the perfect conspiracy material. Amateur disastrous management in term of PR is my view...]
But it is not always so easy: good luck with political views for example or non numeric feelings!!! 
And what is fake news?
The west is fed the notion Syrian anti government forces are freedom fighters yet the very same al qaeda (who these guys belong to) is evil when bombing the twin towers in NY....
Sure they are obvious Michele Obama is a man type of crap, but for more subtle infos..not so easy
We live in a world of propaganda but now the difference is that it is not unique and we do not have pravda feeding the east block while voice of america feed the west:
 every individual is potentially a target of multiple of these channels and will tend to select the ones he/she likes, reinforcing established beliefs
We go to a world of extreme:
extreme wealth/poverty, extreme faith/fanatism, extreme political views/opinions and the medias are just representative/followers


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2016)

qldfrog said:


> And in most cases like the above the easier way out would be to prove by unbiaised check/test that the allegations were false; Once you fails that, the story spread especially when you just have press release denials




Given that and to add my own conspiracy theory, I find it sad and strange that the ABC discontinued its Fact Check office, I also find it strange that very few politicians lept to its defence. 

Say what you like about the ABC but it's clear to me that the political class WANT an uneducated public and compliant media whose sole purpose is to regurgitate the press releases that they hand out with little analysis.

But of course I'm paranoid so that idea is probably just hysteria.


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## qldfrog (21 November 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> but it's clear to me that the political class WANT an uneducated public and compliant media whose sole purpose is to regurgitate the press releases that they hand out with little analysis.
> 
> But of course I'm paranoid so that idea is probably just hysteria.



Fully agree and both sides major parties want it so that they can share the loot, and the backlash comes in the form of Trump style or National front elections with the majors seemingly surprised...
Education, critical spirit is the key, good luck Australia!!!


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## superbatman (24 November 2016)

I never believe anything that is from a unreliable source in internet.


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## pixel (25 November 2016)

superbatman said:


> I never believe anything that is from a unreliable source in internet.




That is easy to say, even easy to do in many cases.
The differentiation lies in the reader's *personal* interpretation of what is "reliable".
A Pauline Hanson supporter will be much sooner inclined to take as Gospel everything she has twittered or published. Someone closer to the middle or beyond it, on the other hand, will dismiss the bulk as bunkum or, at the very least, try to verify her claims against known or provable facts. Same with Climate Change, Marriage Equality, and a whole swag of issues where opinions get published as facts - which they are not.


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## cynic (25 November 2016)

The distinction between facts, opinions, facts of opinion and opinions of facts, is an intersesting topic in itself.

The fact that someone is expressing opinions as though they are facts, does indeed call the integrity of the offered information into question. 

However, sometimes opinions and facts do coincide. So the fact of an opinion being expressed isn't necessarily sufficient to automatically declare that opinion as non factual. As always, irrespective of the perceived integrity of the issuer, discernment is a useful quality when considering information from any source.


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## Tisme (25 November 2016)




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## Darc Knight (25 November 2016)

I find the TV News to be annoying. The old mantra of Reporting used to be unbiased reporting of the facts. Now sensationalism has crept in further, in an attempt to increase ratings and keep the customer (viewer) tuned in.

Go creep a few Instagram pages of the well known TV Reporters, you'll see them describe themselves as "Storytellers" and the like. News should be about the Facts, not Fiction.


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## Smurf1976 (25 November 2016)

cynic said:


> The distinction between facts, opinions, facts of opinion and opinions of facts, is an intersesting topic in itself.
> 
> The fact that someone is expressing opinions as though they are facts, does indeed call the integrity of the offered information into question.




Sometimes in reality you just have to piece together a probable truth based on observed actions. Observe what's going on, rule out any explanations which can be disproven using verified facts, and then whatever you're left with is likely to be a small range of possibilities one of which will be very close to the truth. Further observation of ongoing actions and consideration of plausible motives and other factors then rules out some of those possibilities and in due course a likely winner emerges as to what's probably true.

There's no certainty but sometimes that's the best that can be achieved if there simply isn't disclosure of the facts (and anyone intending to do something against the will of others won't likely disclose it upfront in a factual manner - the first casualty of war is always the truth). 

That's a lot of work though and not something the mainstream media is interested in these days.


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## SirRumpole (25 November 2016)

Smurf1976 said:


> Sometimes in reality you just have to piece together a probable truth based on observed actions. Observe what's going on, rule out any explanations which can be disproven using verified facts, and then whatever you're left with is likely to be a small range of possibilities one of which will be very close to the truth. Further observation of ongoing actions and consideration of plausible motives and other factors then rules out some of those possibilities and in due course a likely winner emerges as to what's probably true.
> 
> There's no certainty but sometimes that's the best that can be achieved if there simply isn't disclosure of the facts (and anyone intending to do something against the will of others won't likely disclose it upfront in a factual manner - the first casualty of war is always the truth).
> 
> That's a lot of work though and not something the mainstream media is interested in these days.




And if you eliminate the impossible....


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## DB008 (29 November 2016)

Good did come out of the US Election.

It showed the 'fake news' sites. Like CNN and Huffington Post. Their bias towards Clinton. Wow....







​


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## DB008 (4 December 2016)

CNN at it again......


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## Tisme (5 December 2016)

I used to subscribe to the Courier Mail, the only right choice of newspapers between the Courier Mail and the Courier Mail. Sure I could have bought the Courier Mail instead for a more balanced view of the world, but I persevered and kept with the Courier Mail for 20 years and when that relationship turned 21 I showed it out the door.

I have to admit I did consult more prestigious overseas journalism to round out my News Corp diet, one being:


http://weeklyworldnews.com/


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## SirRumpole (5 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> I used to subscribe to the Courier Mail, the only right choice of newspapers between the Courier Mail and the Courier Mail. Sure I could have bought the Courier Mail instead for a more balanced view of the world, but I persevered and kept with the Courier Mail for 20 years and when that relationship turned 21 I showed it out the door.
> 
> I have to admit I did consult more prestigious overseas journalism to round out my News Corp diet, one being:
> 
> ...




Oh yeah, high quality journalism there


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## SirRumpole (5 December 2016)

Pizzagate: Fake news story led man to shoot inside restaurant, police reports

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-...an-to-shoot-inside-pizza-shop:-police/8094310


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## McLovin (6 December 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Pizzagate: Fake news story led man to shoot inside restaurant, police reports
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-...an-to-shoot-inside-pizza-shop:-police/8094310




That seems a fair bit more serious than using an file photo of a demonstration or a poll predictor being wrong (actually I'm not sure how that is "fake news")

I can't believe there are people stupid enough to buy in to this cr@p.


> The fake news stories alleging Hillary Clinton and her campaign chief ran a satanic child sex ring out of the restaurant have been denounced by the owner of the popular pizza restaurant Comet Ping Pong.
> “We should all condemn the efforts of certain people to spread malicious and utterly false accusations about Comet Ping Pong,” owner James Alefantis said.
> “Let me state unequivocally: These stories are completely and entirely false, and there is no basis in fact to any of them. What happened today demonstrates that promoting false and reckless conspiracy theories comes with consequences.”
> He and his staff — as well as Clinton’s election campaign — are victim to a story cooked up on the extremist 4chan website. It had been speculating on people mentioned in campaign leader John Podesta’s emails leaked by WikiLeaks.
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...t/news-story/18c1e20af443928e60140e072933c667


----------



## Tisme (6 December 2016)

Many think fake news is a social media problem and don't question the grandfather of it:

e.g. http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4083567.htm


----------



## luutzu (6 December 2016)

Tisme said:


> Many think fake news is a social media problem and don't question the grandfather of it:
> 
> e.g. http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4083567.htm




Sold papers didn't it?

Here's another fake news: Celebrity con artist elected president of the United States.


----------



## DB008 (11 December 2016)

​
​


----------



## pixel (12 December 2016)

Fear not! ASIC is on the case. With natural intelligence being a scarce commodity in our Government and its agencies, they're now employing Artificial Intelligence to detect the Truth:
http://www.afr.com/technology/socia...fake-news-fears-20161209-gt7jl0#ixzz4SZI600QO

Yeah, that might just work


----------



## Tisme (5 January 2017)

Did anyone notice the footage of the Sudanese robbers holding up and ransacking a Jewellery store shows a gun with no ammunition? 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-...-jewellery-store-hold-up-in-melbourne/8161566


----------



## DB008 (7 January 2017)

CNN still at it....


----------



## bellenuit (7 January 2017)

DB008 said:


> CNN still at it....



I was wondering what you were on about until I found CNN's tweet and read the discussion that followed. It seems they were deliberately hiding this guys Islamic connections and by cropping the image concealed his Palestinian scarf and the ISIS 1 finger salute. Even if he is mentally unstable (which is almost a given when discussing ISIS supporters), they should not try to doctor the truth.


----------



## bellenuit (7 January 2017)

bellenuit said:


> I was wondering what you were on about until I found CNN's tweet and read the discussion that followed. It seems they were deliberately hiding this guys Islamic connections and by cropping the image concealed his Palestinian scarf and the ISIS 1 finger salute. Even if he is mentally unstable (which is almost a given when discussing ISIS supporters), they should not try to doctor the truth.




It also appears that his real name (or perhaps his Islamic name) is Emir Mohamed Sikkim.


----------



## basilio (20 January 2017)

*BREAKING: 'Tens of thousands' of fraudulent Clinton votes found in Ohio warehouse.*

So how is your memory folks?  Do you recall the breathless outbreak of indignation as this headline cut a swath through Facebook, the blogosphere and a few million trump supporters ? 
It turned up in fact a couple of days after Donald (Liar in Chief) Trump told campaign crowds that there was conspiracies abroad to steal the election from him. 

He was sure of it of course. No evidence naturally. Not a shred. Just normal Trump lies.

Anyway an enterprising young man with an eye for making a buck decided that if  lying Trump wanted evidence he would create evidence. So he sat down on the kitchen table (where else ?) and created his own fictitious story on his own made up Christian news website that a warehouse in Ohio had thousands of fake ballots  ready for the election.

Check it out. This is our new Post Truth world.  I reckon this guy has a great future as *"The Liars"* new Press Secretary.

* How a 23-year-old made $1300-an-hour for a fake news masterpiece *

*Scott Shane*

1,981 reading now

 facebook SHARE 
 twitter TWEET 
*Annapolis*: It was early fall, and Donald Trump, behind in the polls, seemed to be preparing a rationale in case a winner like him somehow managed to lose. "I'm afraid the election is going to be rigged, I have to be honest," the Republican nominee told a riled-up crowd in Columbus, Ohio. He was hearing "more and more" about evidence of rigging, he added, leaving the details to his supporters' imagination.

A few weeks later, Cameron Harris, a new college graduate with a fervent interest in Maryland Republican politics and a need for cash, sat down at the kitchen table in his apartment to fill in the details Trump had left out. In a dubious cyberart just coming into its prime, this bogus story would be his masterpiece.

Harris started by crafting the headline: "BREAKING: 'Tens of thousands' of fraudulent Clinton votes found in Ohio warehouse." It made sense, he figured, to locate this shocking discovery in the very city and state where Trump had highlighted his "rigged" meme.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...-a-fake-news-masterpiece-20170119-gtv13v.html


----------



## DB008 (11 February 2017)

CNN cuts feed after Bernie SAnders jokingly refers to them as FAKE NEWS!!!!


----------



## noirua (12 February 2017)

*Fake news 'killing people's minds' - Apple boss*
http://www.aol.co.uk/news/2017/02/10/fake-news-killing-peoples-minds-apple-boss/


----------



## DB008 (14 March 2017)

CNN cuts feed, again.

Surprising how a multi-billion $$$ news network has so many problems with live feeds, but people seem to be able to live-stream on Youtube hours on end with no issues...

​


----------



## luutzu (14 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> CNN cuts feed, again.
> 
> Surprising how a multi-billion $$$ news network has so many problems with live feeds, but people seem to be able to live-stream on Youtube hours on end with no issues...
> 
> ​





Maybe they're testing a system design to save Trump from his verbal diarrhoea. You know, cut live feeds when he goes off the script and say something real stupid. 

btw, what's with Trump and using people as props? We're into Show and Tell now?

Check this out:

*Republican Obamacare repeal would benefit wealthiest: study*


> A Republican plan to repeal taxes set under Obamacare would benefit the wealthiest U.S. households at more than five times the rate for middle-income families, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.
> 
> "The effects are really very dramatic. We found that a typical middle-income family would get a tax cut averaging about $300, while people in the top 0.1 percent would get a tax cut of about $207,000," Howard Gleckman, a senior fellow at the nonprofit research group, said on Monday. (tpc.io/2n1Mdwi)
> 
> The expected benefits equal 2.6 percent of a wealthy family's after-tax income, but only 0.5 percent of the income of a middle-class household making $51,600 to $89,400 a year, including fringe benefits like employer-provided health insurance, the center estimated. The top 0.1 percent of U.S. families have income of at least $3.9 million.




Also mean cutting taxes, mainly to the rich, of $600B over next 10 years. That's $60B a year in tax cuts on this healthcare bill alone.

For those too poor to pay or continue with their insurance, they'd be slapped with a 30% surcharge on their premium if they ever decide to buy insurance again. This time, the fine goes to the insurers instead of the tax office.

Woohoo... make 'merka great again folks.


----------



## Tisme (15 March 2017)

luutzu said:


> .......
> 
> *Republican Obamacare repeal would benefit wealthiest: study*
> 
> ...




You seem to be having a problem with how the American psyche works, let me explain so you don't continue mistakes again.

A) America is the "land of opportunity"... this is uber important to every 1) American and 2)outsider who dreams of wealth creation.

B) In context, opportunity by definition means the possibility of success of something better or gain

C) When someone like Obama introduces a floor or social safety net, that someone takes away a level of opportunity and that is not the American way. Every American should have the freedom to start in the gutter and rise to the White House.

It's the freedom of choice that is core. Get it?

It is not unfamiliar here where people who live on the bones of their ar5e inexplicably vote for the LNP who would take away their social benefits in the blink of eye in the face of weak popular opposition.


----------



## DB008 (19 March 2017)

*Headline....

*

*Donald Trump refuses to shake Angela Merkel's hand*

President greeted German leader with handshake upon her arrival but appeared to ignore requests to do so as the pair sat together in front of TV cameras​
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...angela-merkel-shake-hand-refuse-a7635911.html​

*Reality....*


----------



## bellenuit (19 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> *Headline....
> 
> *
> 
> ...





Actually you are wrong there DB. Trump shaking hands with Merkel on arrival was widely reported in both the print and video footage. But what the headlines are referring to is the press conference when both were sitting beside each other. They were taking photos and then a few photographers shouted "how about a handshake" as is the norm. Merkel looked at Trump and even though what she said was muffled, you could hear the work handshake and she put her hand at the ready. But Trump just sat there impassively and Merkel looked quiet embarrassed and made a face gesture suggesting bewilderment to the attendees.

Personally I wasn't 100% sure Trump was aware of what had been asked of him as he seems to have difficulty understanding words with more than one syllable, as handshake is.

Why you would put that story under fake news is beyond me when it as accurate portrayal of what happened.


----------



## DB008 (19 March 2017)

bellenuit said:


> Why you would put that story under fake news is beyond me when it as accurate portrayal of what happened.




Because that is how it was portrayed (mainly on social media) - that Trump refused to shake Merkel's hand at all. Google and look at the headlines.


----------



## bellenuit (19 March 2017)

DB008 said:


> Because that is how it was portrayed (mainly on social media) - that Trump refused to shake Merkel's hand at all. Google and look at the headlines.




The article sub-heading: President greeted German leader with handshake upon her arrival but appeared to ignore requests to do so as the pair sat together in front of TV cameras

Exact description of what happened, unlike Trump's wiretapping fake news.


----------



## explod (27 March 2017)

The following, purportedly from James Rickards seems a bit over the top.  What do others make of this and a growing number of such messages:-



> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> *Subject:* Every Brokerage and Bank Account FROZEN
> *Date:* Wed, 15 Mar 2017 07:04:12 -0400
> *From:* Jim Rickards <jim-rickards@northenscimitar.com>
> ...




I did not open further as there was a warning "this could be spam"


----------



## pixel (27 March 2017)

first question: How did he get your email address?
second question: Do I know that this guy is for real? Or could the link carry a Trojan?

Put differently: I *always move this kind of uninvited alarmist cr@p into the bin.*


----------



## moXJO (27 March 2017)

There are a huge amount of scammers currently targeting Australia via email, phone, or one click opt in. Don't trust anything.


----------



## explod (27 March 2017)

Thanks for the posts above fellow Members.  Never open them from a family members warning sometime ago.  Found the words of propaganda interesting, sort of financial ramping perhaps.


----------



## DB008 (20 April 2017)

***Fake News Alert***







*WATCH: Trump signs kid's hat and then throws it away*​
President Trump has been caught on camera signing a little boy’s hat and then appearing to fling it into the crowd.

https://au.be.yahoo.com/lifestyle/r...-hat-and-then-throws-it-away-yahoo7-be/#page1​

Another angle....shows how much BS the media is spinning.....

https://twitter.com/MicahGrimes/status/854009984606228480

Main Stream Media is getting worse...


----------



## DB008 (20 April 2017)

Google's bias is also showing.

Putting RNC mail into the spam folder.


----------



## DB008 (5 June 2017)

CNN and BBC stage fake protest in London








http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...ssage-from-muslims-after-london-bridge-attack​


----------



## basilio (5 June 2017)

A group of Muslims wanted to express their anger at the ISIS massacre. They recognised it as "barbaric and inhuman" . It was destroying the community.   The media is organised to film their protest and get their message out.

So what part of this is "fake" ?  That people take care of what they are saying ? That the press get good shots ? That the Muslims are not running through the streets but staying (safely..) in one spot ?


----------



## moXJO (5 June 2017)

basilio said:


> A group of Muslims wanted to express their anger at the ISIS massacre. They recognised it as "barbaric and inhuman" . It was destroying the community.   The media is organised to film their protest and get their message out.
> 
> So what part of this is "fake" ?  That people take care of what they are saying ? That the press get good shots ? That the Muslims are not running through the streets but staying (safely..) in one spot ?



By making it seem like the number of protesters were greater in number. Media is constantly trying to mislead.


----------



## basilio (5 June 2017)

moXJO said:


> By making it seem like the number of protesters were greater in number. Media is constantly trying to mislead.




That's puzzling. The media always bunch people up for a shot. That's just good television. There were no numbers quoted in the report. It was always simply a protest by a group of Muslims who were sickened by the attack. 
Fake news ? Don't think so. Looks more like an effort to dismiss the protest as  "not true" "not believable".

That is the lie here.


----------



## moXJO (5 June 2017)

basilio said:


> That's puzzling. The media always bunch people up for a shot. That's just good television. There were no numbers quoted in the report. It was always simply a protest by a group of Muslims who were sickened by the attack.
> Fake news ? Don't think so. Looks more like an effort to dismiss the protest as  "not true" "not believable".
> 
> That is the lie here.



Its the exact same bs that turns 100s into 1000s when reporting.
I'm not dismissing those that protested, I fully support them regardless. But the media has angled it as more than what it was.


----------



## dutchie (6 June 2017)

CNN reporter is caught up in 'fake news' row after being accused of 'setting up' a Muslim counter-terror protest

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4573882/Fake-news-row-Muslim-protesters-TV-crews.html

Be suspicious of *every* source of so called news.


----------



## basilio (27 June 2017)

_ *Michelle Obama's Mom to Receive Lifetime Pension*

captkirk
 9:44a, 10/20/16 


Quote:
Washington D.C. First Grandma Marian Robinson, 79, will receive a lifetime 160K government pension when she leaves the White House next year, according to congressional budget statements.

According to documents obtained through the *Freedom of Information Act* (FOIA), Mrs. Robinson earned the lifetime pension for "services rendered as full-time/in-home caregiver" for granddaughters Malia, 18, and Sasha, 15, during President Obama's two terms in office.

In January of 2009, it was reported that Mrs. Robinson was living in the White House full-time to tend to her granddaughters. She was the first live-in grandmother at the White House since Elivera M. Doud, the mother of Mamie Eisenhower, during the Eisenhower Administration.

Critics say Mrs. Robinson should not profit from something as simple as taking care of family. Sally Kellner, volunteer/activist for the *National Taxpayers Union*, says this is a prime example of needless spending. "I think it's ridiculous that taxpayers must pay this woman a lifetime salary for something everyday Americans do for free. We take care of our families because we love them, not for profit."

When asked if Mrs. Robinson's lifetime pension was justified, Senator Mike Enzi (R-WY), Chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, declined to comment but said a special oversight committee would review all post-Obama Administration budgetary obligations_

http://thebostontribune.com/first-grandma-marian-robinson-receive-lifetime-160k-government-pension/

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2795987
 ______________________________________________________
Ok .  So that's fine isn't it? The Boston Tribune does some research to uncover a rather unsavoury element of President Obamas (mal)administration.
Really ???

Check it out folks.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 June 2017)

If a certain person was still posting here he would have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.


----------



## basilio (27 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If a certain person was still posting here he would have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.




_Really ? Well think about it please.
1) It certainly reads like a genuine news story. It's not inflammatory. It quotes sources. They clearly researched the article
2) The story is carried by hundreds of different different web sites. Surely they can't all be wrong or untruthful?
3) Yep there are some sites that offer a different view *but they have always been fellow travellers for President Obama. What would you expect ?*
4) It's just the sort of thing you'd expect from a guy who is always looking to feather his families nest.

So Rumpy don't be so quick to dismiss this article. I reckon there would many millions people who would agree with it and echo the sentiments enthusiastically.

And after all we live *in a freedom loving country * and we have a *right to free speech*_


----------



## DB008 (27 June 2017)

Well, what more can l say...

​


----------



## basilio (28 June 2017)

What you could sayDB008 is that James O'Keefe who produced that video is master manipulator. In essence he has a  mission  to destroy any person or institution to the left of Genghis Khan (or these days Donald Trump) . To that end he sets up video stings and then carefully edits the resulting material to ensure the person/organisation is show in the worst possible light.

How much form has he got ? Acres of it. His whole website is a tribute to selective editing and misleading headlines.
It works because by and large people don't go past headlines and the first couple of minutes.  In this day and age it also works because of the polarisation that has been created by people like James O'Keefe.

Want to see how he reconstructs a story to put people in the worst possible light ? A Time magazine reporter did an analysis of one of James O'Keefe most infamous stings.  You can't read it in 30 seconds. In fact that is the point the journalist makes at the end of his article. This guy gets away with his deception because he's not checked out properly and in the end the people who want to believe his  BS aren't interested in facts just confirmation.

If anyone else is interested in understanding why James O'Keefe and anything he has produced should be treated with great care check out this analysis.

*News Media*
*The Twisty, Bent Truth of the NPR-Sting Video*
By James Poniewozik @poniewozik March 13,  
Follow @TIMECulture

Vodpod videos no longer available.
James O’Keefe, the controversial conservative activist and undercover-video maker, brought down NPR’s CEO this week after releasing a “sting” video of an NPR fundraiser meeting with fake Muslim “donors.” Now a video editor, having reviewed the full, two-hour film that O’Keefe also posted online, has done a close analysis showing that several key scenes were edited misleadingly, and quotes taken out of context, in the more-publicized short form of the video. Interestingly, the critique came from The Blaze—an online outlet from none other than conservative host *Glenn Beck*.

The close-up look doesn’t let the executive, Ron Schiller, off the hook. But it shows O’Keefe edited the short version of his video to fit his anti-NPR agenda. Explaining why both things can be true at once requires, well, a lot of context.

*Blaze video editor Pam Key* (the writeup is credited to The Blaze’s Scott Baker) said that several of the most embarrassing moments were cobbled together or left out context, apparently in order to make Schiller look as bad as possible. You can read the full post, with video clips, at The Blaze, but the highlights include:

* A quote in which Schiller seems to respond amusedly to a reference on the fake group’s website to promoting Sharia law–“Really? That’s what they said?”–is lifted from an entirely unrelated part of the lunch

* The edited video includes Schiller saying that liberals “might be more educated, fair and balanced” than conservatives; but it omits his saying that he used to be a Republican–and is proud of it–and a fellow NPR fundraiser defending conservatives, saying that she knows and went to school with highly educated conservatives

* A one-minute stretch where the audio goes into a loop while the video keeps playing unaltered may be intentional, perhaps to omit dialogue; says Blaze, it “could be an actual glitch, though not one I’ve seen like this in 25 years of working with video editing”

* The edited video quotes Schiller saying that the Republican party has been “hijacked” by Tea Party conservatives, who he seems to describe as “racist”; the full video shows that–at least at the beginning of his quote–he is explicitly describing the views of wealthy Republican friends who voted for Obama

I want to look at that last scene, because it was the most incendiary, so I went back to the full video. Does it let Schiller off the hook? Not in my viewing, but it does change his comments, introduces room for interpretation–and suggests that O’Keefe left the context out so as to make the quote sound as bad as possible.

........  As of this paragraph, I’m at about 1650 words—thank you if you’ve stuck it out this far!—and I’ve left plenty out, partly because, frankly, I have other stuff to do. I’m thinking about writing my TIME column about this subject this week. I get about _700_ words for that, I can’t embed explanatory video, and I’ll need to include much more background about NPR, O’Keefe and the week’s controversy than I did here. Good luck!

That’s the dilemma of any journalist, as well as, well, whatever O’Keefe is: reality takes forever. You condense, you edit, you quote; you try to get a full sense of the actual story and relate it as best you can in the space you have available–whether limited by actual word count, minutes on air, or your audience’s attention span. You cut a lot of nuances and hope for the best.

You can do that with a mind toward presenting the fullest, fairest picture you can and earning your readers’ trust on the rest. (And you don’t have to be a nonideological, MSM outlet to do it—kudos to Beck’s The Blaze for calling O’Keefe out.)

*Or you can, like O’Keefe, do it with a mind toward making sure your side wins and you present the worst possible picture of your adversaries. You can trust that unpacking all of your slanting will take too long to matter, that the casual news audience will remember your version and that your fans won’t believe your critics anyway.


That trust may well be rewarded. The biggest advantage that a video propagandist has is that reality, as they say in the blog comments, is tl; dr. Too long; didn’t read.*

http://entertainment.time.com/2011/03/13/the-twisty-bent-truth-of-the-npr-sting-video/


----------



## Tisme (28 June 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If a certain person was still posting here he would have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.





Bill Shorten's fault and his band of LUG stamped Fabian Commo working class.


----------



## basilio (28 June 2017)

And now for more real Fake News.

The Leader of The  Free World, Saviour of Humanity,  the ultimate Bigly One has graced the  Illustrious  Cover of Time Magazine.

Plain for All to See at the Wondrous Trump Golf Courses.

Trump has a fake Time Magazine cover framed on the walls of his golf clubs

By Jen Hayden 
Wednesday Jun 28, 2017 · 4:52 AM AUSEST
  86 Comments (86 New)  
114
 





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Ladies and gentlemen, Donald Trump literally has “fake news” hanging on the walls of his golf clubs. The _Washington Post_ discovered at least four Trump-owned properties feature a framed “Time Magazine” cover featuring The Donald. The problem? They are completely phony:

This cover — dated March 1, 2009 — looks like an impressive memento from Trump’s pre-presidential career. To club members eating lunch, or golfers waiting for a pro-shop purchase, it seemed to be a signal that Trump had always been a man who mattered. Even when he was just a reality-TV star, Trump was the kind of star who got a cover story in Time.

But that wasn’t true.

*The Time cover is a fake.


There was no March 1, 2009, issue of Time Magazine. And there was no issue at all in 2009 that had Trump on the cover.*

Watch this video and see David Farenthold of the _Washington Post_ break down the patently fake cover and how it might have gotten there to begin with!

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...e-cover-framed-on-the-walls-of-his-golf-clubs

PS  Time Magazine has told the Wanker In Chief to pull down the Fake Covers.


----------



## DB008 (29 June 2017)

​
How long has Trump been President?
Still no evidence of Russian hacking? DNC Lie


----------



## pixel (29 June 2017)

basilio said:


> And after all we live *in a freedom loving country * and we have a *right to free speech*



The right to free speech is fine, but don't confuse it with a made-up right to spread lies, hatred, and deceit. None of your freedoms extend into an area where they reduce mine - or anybody else's, for that matter.
In other words, if any person peddles false allegations against me or Mrs Obama's grandmother, and in spite of being told it's fake, continues to fling mud, I exercise my "right to free speech" by calling that person a moron and damn liar.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (29 June 2017)

I used sell newspapers as a kid.

And it's all fake news. 

Always has , always will be.

I made a good quid out of it, which is what it's all all about.

It's not about News.

gg


----------



## DB008 (5 July 2017)

Someone made a meme a few days ago
Trump tweeted it
CNN found out who made the meme - tracked them down somehow (called Doxxing)
CNN blackmailed the guy who made it
This is coercion and blackmail from CNN

Someone mentioned that the guy that did the meme is a 15 year old gay guy, and obvious Trump supporter




http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/04/politics/kfile-reddit-user-trump-tweet/index.html






Now...





A person is guilty of coercion in the second degree when he or she compels or induces a person to engage in conduct which the latter has a legal right to abstain from engaging in, or to abstain from engaging in conduct in which he or she has a legal right to engage, or compels or induces a person to join a group, organization or criminal enterprise which such latter person has a right to abstain from joining, by means of instilling in him or her a fear that, if the demand is not complied with, the actor or another will:

1. Cause physical injury to a person;  or

2. Cause damage to property;  or

3. Engage in other conduct constituting a crime;  or

4. Accuse some person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against him or her;  or

5. Expose a secret or publicize an asserted fact, whether true or false, tending to subject some person to hatred, contempt or ridicule;  or

6. Cause a strike, boycott or other collective labor group action injurious to some person's business;  except that such a threat shall not be deemed coercive when the act or omission compelled is for the benefit of the group in whose interest the actor purports to act;  or

7. Testify or provide information or withhold testimony or information with respect to another's legal claim or defense;  or

8. Use or abuse his or her position as a public servant by performing some act within or related to his or her official duties, or by failing or refusing to perform an official duty, in such manner as to affect some person adversely;  or

9. Perform any other act which would not in itself materially benefit the actor but which is calculated to harm another person materially with respect to his or her health, safety, business, calling, career, financial condition, reputation or personal relationships.

Coercion in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.​

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-135-60.html​


The next few days will be very interesting....

My prediction - CNN CEO (Jeff Zucker) will depart.


----------



## basilio (5 July 2017)

Every wondered how and why there was such a flurry of hideous fake news stories spread through teh far right websites and Facebook ?  Hilary Clinton and paedophilia and mass murders ?

All just an accident  perhaps ? Maybe not..

* Investigators explore if Russia colluded with pro-Trump sites during US election *
Questions raised as to whether Trump supports coordinated with Moscow to spread bogus stories aimed at discrediting Hillary Clinton




Mark Warner, the top Democrat on the Senate intelligence committee, says there was evidence that fake news campaigns appeared to target voters in swing states. Photograph: Jay Laprete/AFP/Getty Images




Julian Borger in Washington

Wednesday 5 July 2017 20.30 AEST   Last modified on Wednesday 5 July 2017 21.20 AEST

The spread of Russian-made fake news stories aimed at discrediting Hillary Clinton on social media is emerging as an important line of inquiry in multiple investigations into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Moscow.

Investigators are looking into whether Trump supporters and far-right websites coordinated with Moscow over the release of fake news, including stories implicating Clinton in murder or paedophilia, or paid to boost those stories on Facebook.

The head of the Trump digital camp, Brad Parscale, has reportedly been summoned to appear before the House intelligence committee looking into Moscow’s interference in the 2016 US election. Mark Warner, the top Democrat on the Senate intelligence committee carrying out a parallel inquiry, has said that at least 1,000 “paid internet trolls working out of a facility in Russia” were pumping anti-Clinton fake news into social media sites during the campaign.

Warner said there was evidence that this campaign appeared to be focused on key voters in swing states, raising the question over whether there was coordination with US political operatives in directing the flow of bogus stories.

Robert Mueller, the special counsel appointed by the justice department to oversee the investigation into the Russian role in the election, is thought to be looking into all these issues, as well as possible links between Russian fake news factories and far-right sites in the US.

It is a wide-ranging investigation that is examining the unusually large number of contacts between Trump associates and Russian officials during the campaign, as well as the possibility that the Kremlin has personal or financial leverage over members in the Trump camp, including the president himself according to his own remarks on Twitter.

The role of Russian generated fake news is a separate strand which has gained less attention up to now, but the part it played in depressing the Clinton vote in key states like Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania in the critical last days of the 2016 campaign could have helped change the course of recent American history.

We set ourselves up to be victims of an international cyberwarfare campaign. We were very effective pawns

John Mattes
A huge wave of fake news stories originating from eastern Europe began washing over the presidential election months earlier, at the height of the primary campaign. John Mattes, who was helping run the outline campaign for the Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders from San Diego, said it really took off in March 2016.

*“In a 30-day period, dozens of full-blown sites appeared overnight, running full level productions posts. It screamed out to me that something strange was going on,” Mattes said. Much of the material was untraceable, but he tracked 40% of the new postings back to eastern Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ussia-investigation-fake-news-hillary-clinton*


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## DB008 (6 July 2017)

Tucker

​


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## DB008 (6 July 2017)




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## basilio (6 July 2017)

Did you check out the story behind the tweet on the three different views on paid family leave expressed in CNN ?

If you had you would have realised that all the that smart alec tweet demonstrates is that the media in fact does offer a range of opinions on topics.  They don't just parrot a "party line "  (Briebart excepted.)
Check it out.

OPINION
*Viral anti-CNN tweet doesn't make any sense*

.....The problem with the tweet's flip-flop implication is that the three articles don't suggest anything of the sort. The stories were plucked from the reporting and commentary sections of CNN's website. The two op-eds were written by separate authors.

"Everyone should have a shot at paid family leave" was written by pro-paid family leave activists Heather Boushey and Katie Bethell.
"Trump's budget to include family leave" is a hard news story and doesn't contain an opinion at all.
The final article, "How paid family leave hurts women," was authored by Vanessa Brown Calder, a policy analyst at the libertarian Cato Institute.
If anything, CNN is guilty of presenting a diversity of opinions. Shame on them?

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/viral-anti-cnn-tweet-doesnt-make-any-sense/article/2624711


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## dutchie (7 July 2017)

For most people the news from, MSM in the US and Australia, is true if it supports *their* view or political position.

But actually you should assume that all news distributed by them (MSM) is fake!!


----------



## DB008 (11 July 2017)




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## dutchie (12 October 2017)

_“I think the press is in general a very toxic instrument.”     -   Julian Assange

“Julian Assange claims only 2 per cent of journalists from mainstream media organisations are “credible” while the rest have a corrosive effect because of *selective reporting, fabrications, hype and hysteria*.
(my bolds)
_
2% - that's being a bit generous.


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## basilio (23 October 2017)

Nice little Fake News story from Fox.  (Yes I know. It is practically impossible to separate Fake  from reality at Fox.. but this is better than that.)

Seems a couple of weeks ago on Oct 8th  a "Vietnam war veteran" with a voluminious medal list and apparantly a *retired Navy Seal to boot * announced he was make a gigantic glass Presidential Seal (cute aye ?) for his hero Donald Trump.
Aw shucks. How sweet.
So* naturally* Fox ran this story up the flag pole with all guns blazing and as much hype as they could muster. Absolutely splendifourous interview of said hero.

Fast forward to October 19th and Fox totally retracted the story saying it was all a hoax.  Meanwhile of course 1.5 million people  had followed this hero on Fox's website.

The special twist to this story is :
*Fox was told within 24 hours of the original story that it was a total hoax. *
Despite that information it still took them *another 10 days *to fess up that they had been totally and completly lied too and that they clearly had done no checking of the bona fides of their hero.

*Retired ‘Navy SEAL’ praising Trump on Fox News was a fake*


*By Travis M. Andrews October 20*
*Play Video 0:55*
*Fox News issues correction after retired ‘Navy SEAL’ turned out to be fake*

John Garofalo appeared on Fox News claiming to be a retired Navy SEAL who served in the Vietnam War. The network published a correction Oct. 19 that said “all of Garofalo’s claims turned out to be untrue.” (Amber Ferguson/The Washington Post)

Fox News ran a story on Oct. 8 about a decorated Vietnam War Navy SEAL and glass artist who created an enormous presidential glass seal he hoped to give to President Trump. On Thursday, 11 days later, the network retracted the story after being told the Trump supporter never served in the SEALs or in Vietnam, much less earned commendations for his service.

In the segment, John Garofalo, 72, a resident of New York state, said he served in the Vietnam War with a U.S. Navy SEAL team. Fox News reported that he also received two Purple Hearts and about two dozen other medals for his service.

The man’s claimed record turned out to be a fabrication. It was first discovered by former Navy SEALs. Both these SEALs and family members of Garofalo contacted Fox News about the story, according to the Navy Times.
*
Don Shipley, a retired SEAL, told the Navy Times that he contacted Fox on Oct. 9, the day after the story ran.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-fox-news-was-a-fake/?utm_term=.aca0323f1f3f*


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## basilio (4 November 2017)

We are starting to get to the bottom of how the Kremlin helped create the type of social environment that led to a creature like Donald Trump becoming Liar in Chief.
*
For example did you know that one of the sassiest on line Trump loving twitteratis... was in fact a fictious character created by the Kremlin? Pure creative fantasy.*

And our created Trump loving  Kremlin creation wasn't simply the darling of Twitter. The media  followed and amplified her message.

Fake news. Fake people. Fake President.

* Jenna Abrams: the Trump-loving Twitter star who never really existed *
This darling of the alt-right gained 70,000 followers and was quoted by numerous media organisations – despite being the creation of a Russia-based troll farm

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...-loving-twitter-star-who-never-really-existed


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## SirRumpole (4 November 2017)

The story about the fake news is a fake, and my original comment is also a fake...


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## basilio (4 November 2017)

*So  how many Alt right goats were created by the Kremlin to create a  Trump Presidency.*

*_______________________________________________*
*The right-wing’s favorite Internet personality was just outed as a Russian troll*





Noor Al-Sibai
02 Nov 2017 at 21:32 ET 





The photo used by Russian trolls that ran the "Jenna Abrams" account (left, via Medium) and Russian President Vladimir Putin riding a horse (right, via Creative Commons).
Don't miss stories. Follow Raw Story!





Jenna Abrams’ tweets were beloved, at times, by both the alt-right and the celebrity blogosphere. Now, Congressional investigators have confirmed that her Twitter account was actually run out of St. Petersburg, Russia’s infamous troll farm.

According to The Daily Beast, the “Abrams” account that initially became famous after “fixing” a nude selfie posted by Kim Kardashian was run, along with thousands of others, by the Kremlin-funded Internet Research Agency. The account, which was supposed to be run by an American blogger, soon pivoted to right-wing rhetoric, including a professed belief in segregation.

*Before she became a favorite among the reactionary right-wing set, however, “Abrams’ account built up an image of a straight-talking, no-nonsense, viral-tweet-writing young American woman.” After building a following with funny takes on pop culture and feminism, “she would push divisive views on immigration, segregation and Donald Trump” in the lead-up to the 2016 presidential election.*

Abrams’ tweets were published everywhere from InfoWars to USA Today and Sputnik to _The Washington Post_, and high-profile users like Roseanne Barr, Michael McFaul and even, once, Starbucks’ corporate account responded to her on Twitter. Rather than just being a standalone Twitter account, Abrams also had a personal website, a Gmail account, a Medium account and a GoFundMe page.

It was on her Medium account last fall that the Internet Research Agency, masquerading as the millennial American blogger, published an editorial titled “Why do we need to get back to segregation.”


“Humanity has gone full circle,” the Abrams account wrote. “Never mind how many activists of any color died to get rid of segregation, and fought for inclusion, black people want it back. 100 percent free people made their choice, and their choice is segregation.”

Abrams was far from the first convincing Russian troll farm account. Last month, The Daily Beast also reported that one account, which posed as a black woman, was retweeted by Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey.

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/11/th...ersonality-was-just-outed-as-a-russian-troll/


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## basilio (4 November 2017)

*Twitter’s CEO shared tweets from ‘Russian troll farm’ account claiming to be a black woman: report*




Noor Al-Sibai
20 Oct 2017 at 18:55 ET 





Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey (image via Wikimedia Commons).
Don't miss stories. Follow Raw Story!





Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey is the latest victim of Russia’s propaganda “troll farms.”

According to The Daily Beast, Dorsey retweeted two post from by the account @Crystal1Johnson that claimed to be a black woman but has since been revealed an account made by the Russian Internet Research Agency with links to the Kremlin.

“Rihanna collects her Humanitarian of the Year award from Harvard. She kicked off #WomensHistoryMonth with a bang!” reads one of the tweets Dorsey shared from @Crystal1Johnson in March 2016.

The next week, he shared another that read “Nobody is born a racist. This picture is so sweet! Teach your children to judge others by the kind of person they are inside.”

The @Crystal1Johnson account was permanently barred from Twitter in August, and Dorsey has since deleted his RT’s. The Beast viewed them using the website Archive.is.


An “exhaustive” investigation by the Russian RBC news agency revealed the “Johnson” account was run out of the St. Petersburg “troll factory.”
*

Late last month, CNN revealed that the Internet Research Agency purchased Facebook ads aimed at people likely to sympathize with Black Lives Matter activists with a likely purpose of “[amplifying] political discord and fuel an atmosphere of incivility and chaos.” A later report published just a few days ago revealed that in a similar effort, likely Russian trolls masquerading as a group called “Black Fist” paid for self-defense classes for black activists after President Donald Trump’s inauguration this year.*

The Beast has not speculated about the purpose of the @Crystal1Johnson account.


https://www.rawstory.com/2017/10/tw...-account-claiming-to-be-a-black-woman-report/


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## basilio (4 November 2017)

This story outlines how the thousands of fake Russian twitteraccounts maanged to create stories that were then copied and amplified in the mainstream press.

*The Washington Post, Miami Herald, InfoWars and other U.S. sites spread Russian propaganda from Twitter*

*Tweets from 2,752 fake Twitter accounts created by Russian government trolls found their way into U.S. news stories.*
by Tony Romm and Rani Molla  Nov 3, 2017, 11:24am EDT

https://www.recode.net/2017/11/3/16...hy-miami-herald-ap-russian-propaganda-twitter


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## SirRumpole (4 November 2017)

I don't know why Hilary doesn't sue for defamation over the "child pr0n ring in a pizza parlour" claims.

They were grossly defamatory.


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## basilio (5 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't know why Hilary doesn't sue for defamation over the "child pr0n ring in a pizza parlour" claims.
> 
> They were grossly defamatory.




And who would she sue ? Who was the perpetuator ? Who just repeated it ? Do they have 2 crackers to rub together ?

If anything the activityshould be a criminal action . But hey, where do you start and where do you stop.


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## wayneL (5 November 2017)

Woulda thunk it. Russians save America from Hillary and the toxic left. 

True Comrades.


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## basilio (5 November 2017)

wayneL said:


> Woulda thunk it. Russians save America from Hillary and the toxic left.
> 
> True Comrades.




....and deliver it into the hands of the toxic right.


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## SirRumpole (5 November 2017)

basilio said:


> And who would she sue ? Who was the perpetuator ? Who just repeated it ? Do they have 2 crackers to rub together ?
> 
> If anything the activityshould be a criminal action . But hey, where do you start and where do you stop.




If the allegations were made on Facebook they should be sued, it doesn't matter who the original author was it's up to the publishing agency to prevent it's service being wrongly used.

And yes I think they have two crackers to rub together.


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## basilio (5 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> If the allegations were made on Facebook they should be sued, it doesn't matter who the original author was it's up to the publishing agency to prevent it's service being wrongly used.
> 
> And yes I think they have two crackers to rub together.




I think you are pushing it Rumpy.  Given the billions of posts on Facebook with many being malicious or wrong or slanderous... I have yet to see Facebook *itself* being sued.

Think about it.  Such a situation would require Facebook to review every post for its accuracy and lack of actionable material. Can never happen.

I have heard of a person being sued becasue they made malicious staments on Facebook. That was a big deal. But not Facebook itself.


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## SirRumpole (5 November 2017)

basilio said:


> I think you are pushing it Rumpy. Given the billions of posts on Facebook with many being malicious or wrong or slanderous... I have yet to see Facebook *itself* being sued.




Facebook is fundamentally no different to a tv station or newspaper, it's a publishing medium so it has to have some responsibility for what it allows its service to be used for. It should be able to remove posts when complaints are made about them, if it doesn't it should be liable.

Anyway, if the Facebook posts were re-transmitted on say Fox News, then Fox News should be liable too. Handing out some harsh punishments is the only way of stopping this sort of thing happening.


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## bellenuit (5 November 2017)

Facebook, like Twitter, is an unwitting conduit for much of the fake news. The ability to properly control what is posted is probably way beyond what is viable and will be construed as repression of free speech by those who are prone to believe such fake news (Left and Right)

However, do not forget who the real culprits are and the sources of much of what is thrown at Clinton. It was all started by Republican dirt throwers early on in the Clinton campaign and then “legitimised” by far right channels such as Fox News and Infowars. The reason why Clinton isn't in jail is because most of what it said about her is plainly untrue and would not stand up in court. This never occurs to the Right, who contribute her continued avoidance of prosecution to some great conspiracy.

This is a takedown of two of the currently promoted criminal acts of Clinton. The Right will again shout fake news because this particular piece is from CNN, but the facts are irrefutable and you will find similar refutations on many other "moderate" sites:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/04/o...legations-eisen-wertheimer-opinion/index.html


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## basilio (5 November 2017)

Interesting story Bellenuit.  Certainty went into the details "of two of the currently promoted criminal of Clinton".  And it just demonstarted how dishonest the Liar in Chief is with his representations. 

Completely bogus issues.


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## basilio (5 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Facebook is fundamentally no different to a tv station or newspaper, it's a publishing medium so it has to have some responsibility for what it allows its service to be used for. It should be able to remove posts when complaints are made about them, if it doesn't it should be liable.




No Rumpole not accurate. A TV or newspaper* makes a decision* about what it publishes. Facebook however is used by millions of people to say what they want.  Facebook management *have no input* into deciding what the public will publish.

There is a theoritical capacity to censor after the fact but  this difficult to actually see happen.


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## SirRumpole (6 November 2017)

basilio said:


> Facebook management *have no input* into deciding what the public will publish.




That's obviously how Facebook wants to run it's business and the current law lets them get away with it. 

They are an agent for muck spreading and should have to take some responsibility, they are raking in billions so they can afford to do some due diligence whether before or after publication.

This "Fake News" thread is yours basilio, if you are so concerned about it then you should have some issues with the medium for its transmission.


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## wayneL (6 November 2017)

It should be pointed out that fake news is a tactic used by both sides,  not just Trump as is implied by Komrade bas. 

....and it has been with us, like, forever. 

A bit of balance hete would be nice.


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## basilio (6 November 2017)

wayneL said:


> It should be pointed out that fake news is a tactic used by both sides,  not just Trump as is implied by Komrade bas.
> 
> ....and it has been with us, like, forever.
> 
> A bit of balance hete would be nice.




Actually that is like fake balance Wayne. Anyone with two operating neurons can remember the miles of lying stories constructed around President Obama and Hilary Clinton.  One could start with the Birther BS that was woven and then promoted by the current Liar in Chief Donald Trump.

I would be interested to see what totally fake stories and what beaten up stories can be raised that were used against Republicians.

*For example would one consider the complete fabrications/ stories  of the 15 separate women who said Donald Trump assaulted them ?
*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations
____________________________________________________________

I agree there has been fake news in the past.. I know one of the turning points in my acceptance of the general veracity of news stories in the media was an expose in the 80's by 4 Corners on the way the CIA and other US intelligence groups had agents acting a journalists who then constructed totally fictious stories for publication in te world press to discredit regimes/organisations on their black list. I can also imagine Russia/Soviet Union undertaking similar activities.


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## wayneL (6 November 2017)

So the left doesn't use fake news, Komrade Bas?


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## basilio (6 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That's obviously how Facebook wants to run it's business and the current law lets them get away with it.
> 
> They are an agent for muck spreading and should have to take some responsibility, they are raking in billions so they can afford to do some due diligence whether before or after publication.
> 
> This "Fake News" thread is yours basilio, if you are so concerned about it then you should have some issues with the medium for its transmission.




I started the thread for discussion - I don't "own" it.

Creating deliberatly fake information/news to discredit people or organisations is as old as Methelusah. The dangerous part in the 21st Century IMO is
1) The internet and associated social media networks make spreading such stories far easier.  I find it astonishing and terrifying to delve into areas of the net and see what lies and insanities are created, nurtered and spread.

2) Our political system has become so dishonest that even when stories are proven to be lies some political entities, particularly  the Republican party, just keep on repeating the lies. In theory  political integrity should result in retractions and apologies. No way of course.

3) Even when lies are investigated and proven to false via Snopes or other fact checking websites people and organisations are brazen enough/self interested enough to ignore the information and continue repeating the lie. In fact it becomes even more interesting when the "fact checkers" are admonished as just another arm of the liberal elite and therefore not to be believed.

4) IMO there has been a dangerous breakdown in the general populations interest in factual accounts of events or even physical realities. IMV it seems that with so many confident but wrong headed pundits around many people have decided that it's more important to be certain than accurate.

5) Finally there seems to be few consequences for the delibrate creation  and spreading of falsehoods. I can remembers seeing a couple of court cases about people slandering others on Facebook and facing criminal charges.  But the insessant creation and spreading of political lies about the Clintons  ?(for example) The incessant anti Muslim email chains ? The urban myth stories that never happened and are just passsed on to reinforce particular stereotypes ? How many times did Noco try to pass on stories of this ilk ?

There is currently a Senate hearing in the US into the role of social media in spreading Fake news.  How far is it getting ?  Good question..

* Facebook is not listening to the fake news furore *
John Naughton
Mark Zuckerberg’s absence from Capitol Hill to face questioning about the firm’s role in the spread of bogus election ads spoke volumes about his priorities




Patrick Leahy speaking during the Senate judiciary subcommittee on ‘Extremist Content and Russian Disinformation Online’. Photograph: Drew Angerer/Getty Images

*Shares*
135
 
* Comments*
 307 
Sunday 5 November 2017 07.00 GMT

One of the most instructive sights of the week was that of representatives of Twitter, Google and Facebook getting a grilling from a US Senate judiciary subcommittee on Capitol Hill. The topic at hand? “Extremist content and Russian disinformation online”, which, translated, reads: how did Russian use of social media affect the outcome of the 2016 presidential election?* The committee chairman, Senator Lindsey Graham, set it up nicely in his opening statement by quoting what Trump had said on Fox News on 20 October: “I doubt I’d be here if it weren’t for social media, to be honest with you.”

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...news-furore-us-senate-hearing-mark-zuckerberg*


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## basilio (6 November 2017)

The Flat Earth Society -  dumbing the world one post at a time.

A good article on this topic.
* How the "flat earth" conspiracy gained momentum in a post-truth world *
 


 Phil Barker  Nov 6 2017





Truth is often the first casualty in war. Photo: Supplied

 Share via Email 

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." The late, great, author, columnist, intellectual, critic and scourge of fools and sloppy thinkers everywhere, Christopher Hitchens, coined this delicious idea, with an evil gleaming sharp edge, known as Hitchens's Razor.

Add to this Carl Sagan's neat "An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof," and you've got simple concepts that can be used like a laser to slice down loony belief and bull**** wherever they may lurk.

*What evidence?*
Let's try an extraordinary claim. The sun is 149.6 million kilometres from Earth. Extraordinary proof? Tens of thousands of years of careful scientific thought and test, documented, reviewed and refined until every element of the equation to find the distance, from the equipment, to the mathematics, and a million quantifiable variables, has stood up to the scrutiny of our finest minds. Every step in determining that number exists in the public domain and has withstood any and every legitimate intellectual challenge and so is accepted as a proven fact by the world's scientific community. That's pretty good proof.

Let's try another extraordinary claim. The Earth is flat.

Extraordinary proof? Um, a rapper called B.o.B. And because the Earth looks flat something something human eye.

This is a claim that can – should – be dismissed without evidence. That's it.  (But we know it isn't don't we ?. )

http://www.executivestyle.com.au/ho...y-gained-momentum-in-a-posttruth-world-gzf0ao


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## wayneL (6 November 2017)

I really appreciate these posts Komrade bas, very instructive.


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## basilio (6 November 2017)

wayneL said:


> I really appreciate these posts Komrade bas, very instructive.




Your welcome Komrade Wayne...


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## basilio (6 November 2017)

Bit of history on Fake News. IMO worth a read.

* What is fake news? Its origins and how it grew in 2016 *
 
11






Donald Trump at his first press conference as President-elect Credit: Seth Wenig/AP Photo

James Carson
 16 March 2017 • 1:57pm
It was at Donald Trump’s first press conference as President-elect when the term "fake news" broke out of media discussions and into the mainstream. "You are fake news!" he pointed at CNN’s Jim Acosta while refusing to listen to his question. Since then, the now President of the USA has been calling out major media outlets several times a week for being ‘FAKE NEWS’ via his Twitter feed - particularly CNN and the New York Times. But why is Donald Trump using the term ‘fake news’ so frequently, and where did it come from?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/0/fake-news-origins-grew-2016/


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## SirRumpole (6 November 2017)

basilio said:


> Finally there seems to be few consequences for the delibrate creation and spreading of falsehoods.




That's been my point all along. Unless you start throwing people in gaol or fining them millions these things will go on.


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## qldfrog (6 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That's been my point all along. Unless you start throwing people in gaol or fining them millions these things will go on.



Are really people that naive to discover this as something new; is Saddam weapon of mass destruction that forgotten? Or does the Pravda even remind anyone how news can be used?
nothing new but the fact the leftist media is upset and will never comprehend how Trump could ever be elected;
At the same time, any picture of him is carefully selected (same here for Abbot on the ABC or news ltd)to have the worst angle or rictus.
Whether your are a Basilio or a Wayne, we are all subject to heavy manipulation, so just learn to use your brain and check facts, read european, aljazeera and russian/chinese news..and you may have a slight understanding of the facts, otherwise, just read the Guardian for Basilio or a far right leaflet if you are that minded and be happy with news always agreeing with you...surprise surprise
Facebook works the same obviously


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## SirRumpole (6 November 2017)

qldfrog said:


> , just read the Guardian for Basilio or a far right leaflet if you are that minded and be happy with news always agreeing with you...surprise surprise




Do you ever read the Guardian to get a point of view that balances your pre conceived opinion ?


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## basilio (7 November 2017)

Another analysis on how Google and You Tube find themself promoting fake news particularly after a massacre.   I have also attached a you tube clip which expalins how this happens.

* Google and YouTube promote fake news about Texas shooting suspect *
Platforms offer search results that falsely say Devin Kelley was linked to anti-fascist and leftwing groups, a month after reforms at YouTube




People hammer in crosses at the VP Racing Fuels gas station just down the road from the First Baptist church of Sutherland Springs. Photograph: Mark Mulligan/AP

*Shares*
79

Sam Levin in San Francisco

 
@SamTLevin

 
email

Monday 6 November 2017 23.08 GMT   First published on Monday 6 November 2017 20.57 GMT

Google and YouTube spread fake news and propaganda about a Texas mass shooting suspect, one month after the video-sharing site adopted reforms meant to restrict the promotion of misinformation during breaking news events.

Search results on both platforms have amplified the false news that Devin Kelley, the man accused of killing 26 people in a Sutherland Springs church on Sunday, was linked to anti-fascist and leftwing movements. Twitter also prominently promoted an article from a Russian state-funded news organization, which initially published unsubstantiated claims about Kelley’s political beliefs.

The rapid proliferation of fabricated politicized content has become a common feature of social media in the aftermath of mass shootings in the US. But the latest wave of propaganda in Texas was particularly significant given YouTube’s recent claims that it implemented changes to counter the problem and prioritize legitimate news during national tragedies.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/06/google-youtube-texas-shooting-fake-news


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## qldfrog (7 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you ever read the Guardian to get a point of view that balances your pre conceived opinion ?



I did via Basilio and other links and after a year or so made my mind, very similar to the Monde, pretending to be quality, but just fake news (actually not "FAKE news": only selecting snippets which favor a position, so a la ABC, I doubt the ABC purposely do fake news, it just enhances/suppresses filters to give an image suiting its view, more perverse.But the Guardian can not in any way be considered as impartial


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## SirRumpole (7 November 2017)

qldfrog said:


> But the Guardian can not in any way be considered as impartial




I don't think Fox News can be considered impartial either, so we maintain our entrenched positions.


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## qldfrog (7 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think Fox News can be considered impartial either, so we maintain our entrenched positions.



did I ever say that about Fox? I just can not believe this hype about fake news...same BS as 20 or 30 years ago, the only difference is that now with social media, people have the choice to bath in only their side of the story;Before they had to be force fed the mainstream views
so "Trump is evil" or" socialism is taking over"? thanks God I do not need to have 25y old journos who have lived and travelled less than I did to tell me how to think; and what I think is that an egalitarism de facade is taking over the west, and bringing mediocrity for all, while Russia and China are forging ahead; so Le Monde/the Guardian...no thanks, I have seen how your view brought the west down; as for the Fox news and the republican side in the US, well crooks and self interest before anything else; so not a solution either.
We need governments who put own country and citizen interest first...so sorry no green, LNP or Labour can fit there...And I do not need fake news to think!!!


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## SirRumpole (7 November 2017)

qldfrog said:


> And I do not need fake news to think!!!




Nor do I comrade.


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## basilio (8 November 2017)

How good can constructed stories become ?  At what stage can we be effectively decieved by what seems to "proof" that a person said something (they never actually said .)?

This article opens that conversation with a production already made.

*AI Could Set Us Back 100 Years When It Comes to How We Consume News*
*Fake videos could become so convincing that we may have to get used to getting our news without them.*

by Jackie Snow
November 7, 2017
Despite its great promise, artificial intelligence might set us back a century when it comes to how we consume our news.

At EmTech MIT in Cambridge, MA, on Tuesday, Ian Goodfellow, a staff research scientist at Google Brain and one of _MIT Technology Review_’s Innovators Under 35, pointed out that it used to take enormous resources to produce fake images that might fool us. But AI technology like generative adversarial networks (GANs), a deep-learning system he developed, can create fake images and learn to make them more believable. As a result, it’s going to be easier to fool even more people.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...rs-when-it-comes-to-how-we-consume-news/?set=

As an example - even before the AI's get into swing.  It's amateurish of course, but the upside of really good AI is immense.



As an example - even before


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## SirRumpole (8 November 2017)

basilio said:


> How good can constructed stories become ?  At what stage can we be effectively decieved by what seems to "proof" that a person said something (they never actually said .)?




Yep, clever but frightening.

Maybe the US should produce a faked video of Kim saying he has just surrendered to the USA and broadcast it all over NK.


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## wayneL (10 November 2017)

http://joannenova.com.au/2017/11/th...myth-that-trump-obstructs-satellite-research/

Here's something for the leftists to ignore


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## moXJO (11 November 2017)

Opinion piece by Washington post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...poisoning-new-zealand/?utm_term=.3494bb3c2d81

Possibly the worst fact checked piece I have ever read. The writer literally didn't even look at the pictures to get the gist of it.
Propaganda at its finest.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2017)

What happens when conservative groups doing undercover investigations of "liberal" media  start to create lies ?  

It does pay to check your story, check the evidence.

* Washington Post catches woman in apparent rightwing sting, paper reports *
Jaime Phillips, who falsely told paper Roy Moore had impregnated her, had ties to conservative activist James O’Keefe’s Project Veritas, Post says




The Washington Post newsroom. The paper published a story about its dealings with a woman who claimed to have been impregnated by Roy Moore. Photograph: Brendan Smialowski/AFP/Getty Images

*Shares*
33

Associated Press

Tuesday 28 November 2017 01.01 GMT   Last modified on Tuesday 28 November 2017 01.59 GMT

A conservative group known for undercover investigations has been linked to a woman who falsely told the Washington Post that the Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore impregnated her as a teenager, the newspaper reported.

Moore has been accused of multiple instances of sexual misconduct, which the newspaper had reported on.* But the Post determined that one accuser who approached the newspaper earlier in the month, identified as Jaime Phillips, made up a fake story probably designed to embarrass the newspaper*.

The Post published a story Monday about its dealings with Phillips. Earlier in the day, reporters from the newspaper saw Phillips walking into the New York offices of Project Veritas, a conservative group with a long track record of targeting Democratic groups and major media outlets, often by hiding their identities and using hidden cameras.

...
The Post reported Monday afternoon that Phillips had approached one of its reporters earlier in the month as Moore faced several accusations of sexual misconduct. In a series of interviews over two weeks, Phillips told the Post about an alleged sexual relationship with Moore in 1992 that led to an abortion when she was 15.

*She repeatedly pressed Post reporters to give their opinions on the effects that her claims could have on Moore’s candidacy if she went public, the newspaper reported. The Post did not publish Phillips’ claims and confronted her with inconsistencies in her story*. She told the Post she was not working with any organization that targets journalists.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/27/washington-post-project-veritas-sting-report


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## moXJO (29 November 2017)

After their article I posted, I wouldn't believe anything the Washington post came up with. They have some serious deluded campers working for them.


----------



## basilio (9 March 2018)

Guess what ?  People are far more fascinated by outrageous lies than boring truth. Yah bears and woods stuff but reinforces the problem of our capacity to instantly spread  and reinforce wildly ridiculous stories about individuals, groups or institutions.

* Scientists prove that truth is no match for fiction on Twitter *
Researchers find fake news reaches users up to 20 times faster than factual content – and real users are more likely to spread it than bots

Alex Hern

 @alexhern 
Fri 9 Mar 2018 06.00 AEDT   Last modified on Fri 9 Mar 2018 06.02 AEDT


*Shares*
155
 
* Comments*
 178 



‘Falsehood diffused significantly farther, faster, deeper and more broadly than the truth in all categories of information’, say the scientists. Photograph: Kacper Pempel/Reuters
“Falsehood flies, and the truth comes limping after it,” wrote Jonathan Swift in 1710. Now a group of scientists say they have found evidence Swift was right – at least when it comes to Twitter.

In the paper, published in the journal Science, three MIT researchers describe an analysis of a vast amount of Twitter data: more than 125,000 stories, tweeted more than 4.5 million times in total, all categorised as being true or false by at least one of six independent fact-checking organisations.

The findings make for unhappy reading. “Falsehood diffused significantly farther, faster, deeper and more broadly than the truth in all categories of information,” they write, “and the effects were more pronounced for false political news than for false news about terrorism, natural disasters, science, urban legends or financial information.”

How much further? “Whereas the truth rarely diffused to more than 1,000 people, the top 1% of false-news cascades routinely diffused to between 1,000 and 100,000 people,” they write. In other words, true facts don’t get retweeted, while too-good-to-be-true claims are viral gold.

How much faster? “It took the truth about six times as long as falsehood to reach 1,500 people, and 20 times as long as falsehood to reach a cascade depth of 10” – meaning that it was retweeted 10 times sequentially (so, for example, B reads A’s feed and retweets a tweet, and C then reads B’s feed and retweets the same tweet, all the way to J).

The researchers speculate that falsehoods spread so fast because they fulfil our desire for novelty. True news, hamstrung by the requirement that it has to have actually happened, is generally much alike, but fake stories can surprise and entertain with no limit. The scientists posit that “when information is novel, it is not only surprising, but also more valuable, both from an information theoretic perspective [in that it provides the greatest aid to decision-making] and from a social perspective [in that it conveys social status on one who is ‘in the know’ or has access to unique ‘inside’ information].”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/08/scientists-truth-fiction-twitter-bots


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## SirRumpole (9 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Guess what ? People are far more fascinated by outrageous lies than boring truth.




Is that any surprise ?

The media will fall over themselves stirring up a leadership spill, but when it comes to policy they are too bleeding lazy to do their jobs.


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## Tisme (9 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Is that any surprise ?
> 
> The media will fall over themselves stirring up a leadership spill, but when it comes to policy they are too bleeding lazy to do their jobs.




We see it here. I post facts and the usual suspects post contrary opinions with made up yarns, just so they can avoid the godaweful truth and, of course, to be bl00dy minded and contrary. It's a burden, but one I can easily shoulder.


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## moXJO (9 March 2018)

The soon to be problem is that video will be easily edited on the cheap by the masses. Inserting whoever you want to do whatever you want.
Nothing will be believable soon. We already have tons of staged stuff.


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## basilio (25 April 2018)

*Would I lie to you honey ?*
Could Sarah Abdallah be feeding us BS on the gas attacks in Syria ? And if so who is she ?


*BBC Trending*

*Syria war: The online activists pushing conspiracy theories*

BBC Trending Going in-depth on social media

19 April 2018

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Image copyright Twitter/@sahouraxo
Image caption Sarah Abdallah is one of the most influential Twitter users commenting on conversations about the conflict in Syria, although little is known about the person behind the account
As the investigation continues into another alleged chemical attack in Syria, one group of influential online activists is busy spreading their version of events.

Inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) are attempting to access the previously rebel-held town of Douma, where medical organisations and rescue workers say President Bashar al-Assad's forces dropped bombs filled with toxic chemicals in an attack on 7 April, killing more than 40 people.

The Syrian government and its key ally, Russia, say the incident was staged. But the US, UK and France - who support the opposition to Mr Assad - say they are confident that chlorine and possibly a nerve agent were used.

Despite the uncertainty about what happened in Douma, a cluster of influential social media activists is certain that it knows what occurred on 7 April.

They've seized on a theory being floated by Russian officials and state-owned media outlets that the attacks were "staged" or were a "false flag" operation, carried out by jihadist groups or spies in order to put the blame on the Assad government and provide a justification for Western intervention.

The group includes activists and people who call themselves "independent journalists", and several have Twitter followings reaching into the tens or hundreds of thousands.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-43745629


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## SirRumpole (25 April 2018)

basilio said:


> The group includes activists and people who call themselves "independent journalists", and several have Twitter followings reaching into the tens or hundreds of thousands.




When are people going to get the idea that Twitter/Facebook is crap ?

The mainstream media aren't angels but at least they can be sued or fined if they print bullshite.


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## moXJO (25 April 2018)

basilio said:


> *Would I lie to you honey ?*
> Could Sarah Abdallah be feeding us BS on the gas attacks in Syria ? And if so who is she ?
> 
> 
> ...



Umm no the fact there was no evidence before US ran in and blew **** up


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## moXJO (25 April 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> When are people going to get the idea that Twitter/Facebook is crap ?
> 
> The mainstream media aren't angels but at least they can be sued or fined if they print bullshite.



Who sued after Iraqi? 

They report what **** comes out of preferred sources


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## basilio (2 May 2018)

There is an interesting development across the pond where the police commissioner came out and flatly stated that the Prime Ministers partner has never been subject to any investigation or any sort.  Full stop. End of story.

Why did he have to dothis ?  Apparently there is some pond life around that is methodically spreading lies and rumours about Clarke Gayford (The PM's partner) to destry the PM. 

What sort of scum ? Check out the website below.  Makes me wonder at what stage are people called to account for the appaling xhite they are spreading.

* Clarke Gayford: New Zealand police deny PM's partner is under investigation *
Highly unusual move follows months of increasingly vicious innuendo and untrue allegations on rightwing blogs about Jacinda Ardern’s partner

Eleanor Ainge Roy in Dunedin

 @EleanorAingeRoy 
Wed 2 May 2018 12.21 AEST   Last modified on Wed 2 May 2018 12.45 AEST

*Shares*
7

 New Zealand police have taken the highly unusual step of issuing a public statement clearing the prime minister Jacinda Ardern’s partner of any wrongdoing after months of malicious rumours about his personal life.

Since Ardern took office in October, her partner Clarke Gayford, a television fishing presenter, has been subjected to increasingly vicious innuendo and gossip on rightwing blogs, social media and through word of mouth.

On Wednesday, the police commissioner, Mike Bush, issued a press release stating that Gayford is not, nor has never been, subject to a police inquiry.





*  'Hipster salty sea dog': Jacinda Ardern defends partner 'Clarke with an e' after op-ed attack  *
Read more
“While in general we do not respond to enquiries which seek to confirm if individuals are under police investigation, on this occasion we can say that Mr Gayford is not and has not been the subject of any police inquiry, nor has he been charged in relation to any matter,” Bush said. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...olice-deny-pms-partner-is-under-investigation

And where does this poisonous dribble come from ? Totally insane xhit.

http://mediawhores.co.nz/2018/02/07...ilt-his-media-career-by-spreading-his-cheeks/


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## Tisme (2 May 2018)

basilio said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...olice-deny-pms-partner-is-under-investigation
> 
> *And where does this poisonous dribble come from ? Totally insane xhit.*
> 
> http://mediawhores.co.nz/2018/02/07...ilt-his-media-career-by-spreading-his-cheeks/




The Guardian and Mediawhores apparently


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## basilio (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> The Guardian and Mediawhores apparently




Well your at least half right Tisme. And after reading some the posionous rubbish you serve up I can see where your taste firmly lies. 

Come across any transgender, jewish, paedophile  shapeshifters recently ??


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## Tisme (2 May 2018)

basilio said:


> Well your at least half right Tisme. And after reading some the posionous rubbish you serve up I can see where your taste firmly lies.
> 
> Come across any transgender, jewish, paedophile  shapeshifters recently ??




1) No such thing as half right.
2) No I haven't seen any trannies of late to have a conversation with; yes I managed to finagle money owed me by an Israeli Jew; unlike you I don't condone/promote pedophiles so no; shapeshifters... that's a no too.

But I have been served another load of bile from a heterophobic, anglophobic wannabe white person who wears rose coloured glasses and a big girl's blouse, just a short while ago in this very thread..... he's eerily like a creeping Jebus.


----------



## basilio (2 May 2018)

Have you cleaned up your mirror yet Tizze ? It must have have made an awful mess when it saw the lying, inspid little xurd  leering at it this morning. 

Tell you what xuckface. Do you want to keep turning this thread into a slime pit or are we quits ..


----------



## Tisme (2 May 2018)

basilio said:


> Have you cleaned up your mirror yet Tizze ? It must have have made an awful mess when it saw the lying, inspid little xurd  leering at it this morning.
> 
> Tell you what xuckface. Do you want to keep turning this thread into a slime pit or are we quits ..




LOL

Your grasp of the English vernacular is truly impressive given the weight of that shoulder chip. Is it something I said?


----------



## basilio (2 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Is it something I said?





Yeah.... I chose to highlight a particularly nasty website that seems to produce an endless array  of the most bizzare and nasty tales ever invented.  It is one of the sources of the current slag campaign against Clarke Gayford.

Your response .......is to equate The Guardian as equal partners in such behaviour. Super, super trolling Tisme. 

The crack I made about "transgender, jewish, paedophile shapeshifters" was a way of crudely simplifying at least part of the content of  Media whores.


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## Tisme (2 May 2018)

basilio said:


> Yeah.... I chose to highlight a particularly nasty website that seems to produce an endless array  of the most bizzare and nasty tales ever invented.  It is one of the sources of the current slag campaign against Clarke Gayford.
> 
> Your response .......is to equate The Guardian as equal partners in such behaviour. Super, super trolling Tisme.
> 
> The crack I made about "transgender, jewish, paedophile shapeshifters" was a way of crudely simplifying at least part of the content of  Media whores.





As I understand it, Clarke has been under intense scrutiny from the main stream press too, albeit hiding behind journalistic troll accounts used solely for the purpose of starting gossip and extracting feedback.

I see the Trump soln as the most effective : go straight to the fight club and deal with them at their own level = twatter.


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## basilio (2 May 2018)

As you understand it... Tisme. And exactly what do you "understand" ?  Simply speaking, a number of trolls picking up this revolting garbage and spraying it around to see how much mud can be made to stick ?

And when it gets so ridiculously bad, the Police Commissioner has to step in and categorically state there is absolutely no truth in the smears.  Whats the point in that when allegedly sane people can equate the revolting rubbish from MediaWhores with the material from The Guardian and not miss a beat. 

And the Trump solution ? Wow ! This is The Liar in Chief.  This is worlds greatest fantasist attempting to create a new world based on *the Infallible Word of Donald Trump.*


----------



## moXJO (3 May 2018)

basilio said:


> Whats the point in that when allegedly sane people can equate the revolting rubbish from MediaWhores with the material from The Guardian and not miss a beat.
> *.*



Hey Tisme.
Don't rubbish Basilios only go to source.


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## SirRumpole (3 May 2018)

Only cowards use social media for denigration, it's much less likely that they will be sued.

Social media really has to have the same standards applied that mainstream media has to operate under.


----------



## cynic (3 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Only cowards use social media for denigration, it's much less likely that they will be sued.
> 
> Social media really has to have the same standards applied that mainstream media has to operate under.



To which standards are you referring? How often do the published letters, from opinionated tabloid patrons, attract lawsuits?

Were you aware that this forum has had to endure a number of civil lawsuits in recent years?


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Only cowards use social media for denigration, it's much less likely that they will be sued.
> 
> Social media really has to have the same standards applied that mainstream media has to operate under.





I have to admit the persistent brain fart abusive, base language delivered here by you know who and his recidivist followers wouldn't fail the litigation test....... up there with the best of twatter.

He who cannot be named, even co opted a couple of mercenary blowin's who didn't so much fail their mission, but realised who the enemy really was....cudos to them for being manly men.  I'm fairly sure buggerlugs even created fake account avatars to agree with his own arguments, ....... dadah!


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## SirRumpole (3 May 2018)

cynic said:


> To which standards are you referring? How often do the published letters, from opinionated tabloid patrons, attract lawsuits?




Sophie Mirabella, Geoffery Rush, Alan Jones (defendant).. and others pending I believe.



> Were you aware that this forum has had to endure a number of civil lawsuits in recent years?




Not aware of the details, but it's beside the point. This forum is mainstream with the owner identifiable. You can make defamatory comments on facebook with an anonymous handle and FB denies responsibility for them.


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2018)

moXJO said:


> Hey Tisme.
> Don't rubbish Basilios only go to source.





Because I respect you moXJO .... my apologies.


----------



## Tisme (3 May 2018)

basilio said:


> As you understand it... Tisme. And exactly what do you "understand" ?  Simply speaking, a number of trolls picking up this revolting garbage and spraying it around to see how much mud can be made to stick ?
> 
> And when it gets so ridiculously bad, the Police Commissioner has to step in and categorically state there is absolutely no truth in the smears.  Whats the point in that when allegedly sane people can equate the revolting rubbish from MediaWhores with the material from The Guardian and not miss a beat.
> 
> And the Trump solution ? Wow ! This is The Liar in Chief.  This is worlds greatest fantasist attempting to create a new world based on *the Infallible Word of Donald Trump.*





Hey look what I found:


----------



## moXJO (3 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Because I respect you moXJO .... my apologies.



All class,  good sir.


----------



## Wysiwyg (3 May 2018)

The things that you're liable, to read in the bible. It aint necessarily so.


----------



## Joe Blow (3 May 2018)

Just for the record, basilio has not created any fake accounts to my knowledge, and ASF has fairly sophisticated means for detecting them. I would know if he had.

As a general observation, personal slights and petty provocations do not make for interesting reading. What makes for interesting reading is intelligent, thoughtful, discussion and debate. So can we please focus on the topic at hand and not get sidetracked by irrelevancies, innuendo and personal attacks?

It always pains me to see interesting threads taken off topic and reduced to tit-for-tat slanging matches. It's never productive and always avoidable. So let's not go there please. Thanks.


----------



## cynic (3 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Sophie Mirabella, Geoffery Rush, Alan Jones (defendant).. and others pending I believe.



Okay.

So there are some celebrities voicing their protest via the legal system.

What of those, libelled by the media, whom lack celebrity status?

How do you think those with names, only publicly known via media besmirching, would fare in civil proceedings?

How is a defamed individual (armed only with the quality of representation, afforded by legal aid and/or personal finances), to be expected to counter the persuasive arguments levelled by top shelf QCs, and somehow convince their jury of peers to abandon its entrenched faith in the mainstream media?



> Not aware of the details, but it's beside the point. This forum is mainstream with the owner identifiable. You can make defamatory comments on facebook with an anonymous handle and FB denies responsibility for them.



My apologies for overlooking that particular distinction.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 May 2018)

cynic said:


> How is a defamed individual (armed only with the quality of representation, afforded by legal aid and/or personal finances), to be expected to counter the persuasive arguments levelled by top shelf QCs, and somehow convince their jury of peers to abandon its entrenched faith in the mainstream media?




It's a problem, but some lawyers do pro bono work or "no win no fee" arrangements.


----------



## noirua (5 May 2018)

Is this a false or fake video...?


----------



## SirRumpole (5 May 2018)

noirua said:


> Is this a false or fake video...?





I don't know if it's a fake video or not, but echoes of the Chamberlain case came back as I watched it. 

Lindy's apparent disconnection was taken as guilt, somehow the name "Azaria" meant "sacrifice in the desert", that sort of cr@p.

The media can and will beat up anything, and of course there is always the thought "but what if it's true?"


----------



## Tisme (5 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't know if it's a fake video or not, but echoes of the Chamberlain case came back as I watched it.
> 
> Lindy's apparent disconnection was taken as guilt, somehow the name "Azaria" meant "sacrifice in the desert", that sort of cr@p.
> 
> The media can and will beat up anything, and of course there is always the thought "but what if it's true?"




Yes people have been programmed to cry and sob for the crowd like on the movies, but that ain't the real reaction for many in the various scenarios of deep grief, fear, anger and anxiety.


----------



## explod (5 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't know if it's a fake video or not, but echoes of the Chamberlain case came back as I watched it.
> 
> Lindy's apparent disconnection was taken as guilt, somehow the name "Azaria" meant "sacrifice in the desert", that sort of cr@p.
> 
> The media can and will beat up anything, and of course there is always the thought "but what if it's true?"



Shocking turn out, remember well our Victorian forensic later finding that the so alleged blood spots put before the court were found to be paint spots.


----------



## basilio (6 May 2018)

The Madelaine McCann diatribes are just poisonous conspiricay theories confabulated for God know what reasons. 

One thing for certain. Some of the main spreaders of these conspricay theories have built up large You Tube audiences which has become quite profitable.


----------



## Tisme (2 June 2018)

Another brainwashed girlyboy journo looking for fame on the back of Jordan's fame, even tenuously linking him to a maniac.




https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/david...incel-nice-guys-enforced-monogamy_a_23447825/


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## moXJO (12 June 2018)

Google is censoring, blacklisting and making it difficult to find certain content. I've noticed it for a while now. But even more so in the last month.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 June 2018)

moXJO said:


> Google is censoring, blacklisting and making it difficult to find certain content. I've noticed it for a while now. But even more so in the last month.




Maybe they are trying to exclude fake news and improve their standards.


----------



## moXJO (12 June 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe they are trying to exclude fake news and improve their standards.



Seems to be omit any news.


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## noirua (27 August 2018)

*Ace Family FAKED the robbery? #DramaAlert Alissa Violet vs Erika Costell! KSI - Diss Track!*

https://newsmidnight.com/video/H54duH3B6tf-Ace-Family-FAKED-the-robbery-DramaAlert-Alissa-Vio


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## sptrawler (20 September 2018)

The good thing about the Dutton issue, is no one is biting, it hasn't rated a mention on the Dutton thread.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-...ls-to-sack-peter-dutton-au-pair-saga/10284690

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...motion-over-au-pair-saga-20180920-p504y3.html

A lot of journalistic impact is visual implication, one just has to look at the pictures attached to the articles, to ascertain the leaning of the post. IMO
But it would be interesting to see the article and its presentation, if Morrison had backed down on supporting Dutton, would the headline be'Morrison throws Dutton under the bus'?


----------



## Darc Knight (20 September 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The good thing about the Dutton issue, is no one is biting, it hasn't rated a mention on the Dutton thread.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-...ls-to-sack-peter-dutton-au-pair-saga/10284690
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...motion-over-au-pair-saga-20180920-p504y3.html
> ...




Oops


----------



## sptrawler (20 September 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Oops




O.K I fixed that up, now go and look at the SMH political section online, all negative Lib press.

They never post anything about Labor, maybe because that's because Labor say fluck all, there you go answering my own question.
Why don't they ask silly Billy, how he is going to replace 20,000MW of base load coal generation, to meet his 50% carbon reduction?
Guess it is a hard question, because it will be really hard to do with today's technology.
But hey, let's not let reality get in the way, of opposition party dreams, or vote catching crap.


----------



## Tisme (21 September 2018)

Notice a pattern here?

"
In July, the President retweeted a user's video of footage from one of Mr Trump's appearances on World Wrestling Entertainment's programme in 2007. During it, Mr Trump body slams WWE owner Vince McMahon who has the CNN logo superimposed over his face.

*He had also suggested that a "fake news trophy” contest should be held as to which television network covers him in the most "dishonest, corrupt and or/distorted" way."
*
List of fake news stories:

https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/fake-news


----------



## dutchie (22 January 2019)

MSM in the UK, Europe, USA and Australia is a misnomer. They should be correctly referred to as the MSBC (Main Stream Bias Commentators). 
You can't be known as  news purveyors when you make up your own version of any news.


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2019)

Fake news has endangered the lives of schoolboys... Class action coming right up.

WTF ever happened to fact checking?


----------



## basilio (22 January 2019)

wayneL said:


> Fake news has endangered the lives of schoolboys... Class action coming right up.
> 
> WTF ever happened to fact checking?




Yeah  quite right Wayne. And exactly  which evil piece of xxxx  was it who spread toxic false stories on Facebook that caused his followers to waterboard a Syrian refugee ?

*Syrian refugee, 16, who was filmed being 'waterboarded' by school bullies is suing Facebook 'for not stopping Tommy Robinson posting accusations he violently attacked three English girls'*

*Syrian refugee Jamal, 16, is going to sue Facebook over claims made about him *
*Refugee was allegedly 'waterboarded' by a school bully in a shocking incident *
*EDL founder Tommy Robinson made claims on the social media site about Jamal*
*In a series of videos, Robinson claimed that Jamal attacked three girls and a boy*
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ded-suing-Facebook-Tommy-Robinson-claims.html


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2019)

basilio said:


> Yeah  quite right Wayne. And exactly  which evil piece of xxxx  was it who spread toxic false stories on Facebook that caused his followers to waterboard a Syrian refugee ?
> 
> *Syrian refugee, 16, who was filmed being 'waterboarded' by school bullies is suing Facebook 'for not stopping Tommy Robinson posting accusations he violently attacked three English girls'*
> 
> ...



Fake news luvvie, look deeper


----------



## Ann (22 January 2019)

I don't know about anyone else but any time I have known the inside story of something and then have seen a news article or TV report, they have never got all the facts right.
Not only do they not get it right but they verbal people! How do I know, because I was interviewed once about 30 years ago for a TV news report and they actually cut out a few of my words in a sentence and it changed my entire meaning. Prior to this, one evening I was watching the news when the reporter mid-sentence said "This isn't true, I am not going to read it" He got up and left the camera. I never saw him again. After both these incidents I try very hard to avoid watching the news on TV.


----------



## basilio (22 January 2019)

Wanna bet ?  

There is a long back story to this Wayne. 

* Tommy Robinson threatened with legal action over 'bully' video *
Far-right campaigner posted video identifying and interviewing boy accused of bullying Syrian refugee 
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...threatened-with-legal-action-over-bully-video

* Bullied Syrian schoolboy to sue Facebook over Tommy Robinson claims *
Social network gave ‘special status’ to English Defence League founder, say solicitors
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...oy-to-sue-facebook-over-tommy-robinson-claims


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2019)

The Guardian basilio. There was actually some fake news from both side of the divide but the whole narrative was fake my friend.


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2019)

Anyway what has that got to do with the Covington boys getting threatened for doing absolutely nothing wrong


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2019)

A great article from the toxic The Atlantic no less.

Kudos to the author for admitting the own goal.


----------



## basilio (24 January 2019)

What happens to people who have been targeted by the current wave of Alt right/totally  insane keyboard warriors ?
People who are fitted up for heinous crimes which they know nothing about ? 
Parents who have had children murdered by gunman and then hounded from  town to town  by unspeakable xrseholes who call these massacres "stunts" and the grieving families "actors" ?


* Trapped in a hoax: survivors of conspiracy theories speak out *
According to a recent study, half of the American public endorses at least one conspiracy theory. Photograph: Ali Smith for the Guardian
What happens to those caught up in the toxic lies of conspiracy theorists? The Guardian spoke to five victims whose lives were wrecked by falsehoods

Conspiracy theories used to be seen as bizarre expressions of harmless eccentrics. Not any more. Gone are the days of outlandish theories about Roswell’s UFOs, the “hoax” moon landings or grassy knolls. Instead, today’s iterations have morphed into political weapons. Turbocharged by social media, they spread with astonishing speed, using death threats as currency.

Together with their first cousins, fake news, they are challenging society’s trust in facts. At its most toxic, this contagion poses a profound threat to democracy by damaging its bedrock: a shared commitment to truth.

Their growing reach and scale is astonishing. A University of Chicago study estimated in 2014 that half of the American public consistently endorses at least one conspiracy theory. When they repeated the survey last November, the proportion had risen to 61%. The startling finding was echoed by a recent study from the University of Cambridge that found 60% of Britons are wedded to a false narrative.

The trend began on obscure online forums such as the alt-right playground 4chan. Soon, media entrepreneurs realized there was money to be made – most notoriously Alex Jones, whose site InfoWars feeds its millions of readers a potent diet of lurid lies (9/11 was a government hit job; the feds manipulate the weather.)
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/23/conspiracy-theories-internet-survivors-truth


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## TikoMike (24 January 2019)

Jesus ******* Christ quoting The Guardian. You might as well quote Buzzfeed for their hit piece on Cohen and Trump. But good work with the straw mans in response to the 16 year old MAGA hat wearing kid with a smirk.


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## rederob (25 January 2019)

Ann said:


> I don't know about anyone else but any time I have known the inside story of something and then have seen a news article or TV report, they have never got all the facts right.



Reminds me about the children overboard affair back in 2001. Although in that case it was the media being fed a pack of lies by government.  When I first saw the pictures there was no evidence that anyone had been thrown overboard.  I was working for the Dep't of Defence at the time and made personal inquiries - common knowledge in Defence was seemingly only "common" in Defence.  Despite everything you may have read the government of the day knowing lied (immediately prior to the federal election) and *all* the people involved in the cover up continued to be promoted in both the bureaucracy and military.
A good book to read about the incident is by Tony Kevin.
And here's the clincher.  Despite a 576 page Senate inquiry into the incident, it was impossible to access the key players because the Senate was blocked by a cabinet decision. Cabinet decided to *fence off ministerial and prime ministerial conduct from the reach of the inquiry* by refusing access to ministerial and prime ministerial staff and to public servants serving in ministerial offices at the time.


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## basilio (25 January 2019)

TikoMike said:


> Jesus ******* Christ quoting The Guardian. You might as well quote Buzzfeed for their hit piece on Cohen and Trump. But good work with the straw mans in response to the 16 year old MAGA hat wearing kid with a smirk.




Really TK ? So what do you reckon mate ?  That those poor xuckers who were targeted by the insane right didn't exist ?  That in fact the Alex Jones hit job on the massacre at Sandy Hook primary school was spot on and that all the grieving parents were paid actors ? 

Is that what you truly believe ? Did you actually read the story or simply decided that because it was published in The Guardian you could summarily wave your hand and dismiss it as either lies or propaganda ? 
Or are you just on another God almighty troll and doing a Trump act where dismissal and lies replace facts and reality.  Honestly with that attitude I can see you front and centre hounding those poor xuckers  on your keyboard.


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## basilio (9 March 2019)

Latest story coming out is the use of a fake grass roots organisations by the Glencore coal group to  spread pro coal messages on Facebook. And of course George Christensen managed to spread their word even further.

* George Christensen defends using pro-coal posts from covert Glencore campaign *
Liberal National MP dismisses concerns about the secret nature of Project Caesar messaging

Supported by
  About this content
Christopher Knaus

 
 @knausc 
Fri 8 Mar 2019 22.09 GMT   Last modified on Fri 8 Mar 2019 22.11 GMT


 
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George Christensen says ‘if a coal company is sharing information that is pro-coal – great’. Photograph: Mick Tsikas/AAP
The Liberal National party MP George Christensen has defended sharing pro-coal material from a supposedly grassroots group linked to Project Caesar, Glencore’s covert communications campaign.

Glencore has attracted significant criticism for operating a multimillion-dollar shadow campaign to bolster demand for coal, run by political operatives at the C|T Group.

Project Caesar spread sophisticated pro-coal messaging on social media using “grassroots” online Facebook groups and associated websites. The aim was to shift public sentiment toward coal using arguments personally relevant to its audience. No disclosure of the links between the content and Glencore was made.

One source with knowledge of Project Caesar said a site linked to Project Caesar was “Energy in Australia”, a Facebook group and associated website which pushed pro-coal, anti-renewable messaging to an audience of more than 20,000 people.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-pro-coal-posts-from-covert-glencore-campaign


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## kahuna1 (9 March 2019)

I found this to be illuminating ...


all true of course !!


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## dutchie (30 November 2019)

No wonder the US Mass Media has absolutely no credibility around the world....


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## qldfrog (30 November 2019)

About fake new and gw, and the damage on bith real preservation work and the youth moral
This is actually criminal...
Interesting article:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...thing-they-say-about-climate-change-is-wrong/


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## rederob (30 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Interesting article:
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...thing-they-say-about-climate-change-is-wrong/



You know that is *NOT *science, and never yet have you had a credible comment on climate, making you a principal proponent of "fake news" at ASF.


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## dutchie (30 November 2019)

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez - “The world is going to end in 12 years if we don't address climate change.”

Thunberg in her new book, “Around 2030 we will be in a position to set off an irreversible chain reaction beyond human control that will lead to the end of our civilization as we know it.” 

Now, that's science!


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## explod (30 November 2019)

dutchie said:


> Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez - “The world is going to end in 12 years if we don't address climate change.”
> 
> Thunberg in her new book, “Around 2030 we will be in a position to set off an irreversible chain reaction beyond human control that will lead to the end of our civilization as we know it.”
> 
> Now, that's science!



I feel, and that is not science, that it's too late regardless of what we do.

However there will be some who can afford to set up self sustaining enclosed environments where they can survive. However where they place themselves will be critical as landmasses will also crumble IM very HO.

Time for a scotch.


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## dutchie (1 December 2019)

explod said:


> Time for a scotch.




Lol


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## basilio (7 December 2019)

More fake news, along with fake fires, fake smoke and fake scientists using fake figures to tell us the fake fires portend the end of the world as we know it.
Thank heavens our  astute, super intelligent leaders and their equally astute followers can point out out xhit fakery of all this concern.

*Leading scientists condemn political inaction on climate change as Australia 'literally burns'*
Climate experts ‘bewildered’ by government ‘burying their heads in the sand’, and say bushfires on Australia’s east coast should be a ‘wake-up call’

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...n-climate-change-as-australia-literally-burns


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## basilio (7 December 2019)

Back to fake news - and Facebook refusing to do anything about black and white examples of poisonous stories.
 Print Email  Facebook  Twitter  More
*Anthony Albanese to take aim at social media giants, accusing them of robbing politics of civility*
Federal Labor leader Anthony Albanese will take a swing at Facebook in his last major speech of the political year, accusing the social media giant of being complacent with false information.

Key points:





Anthony Albanese wants social media websites held to account for the content they host

He will argue misinformation is negatively influencing the public's opinion of the political system

The Labor leader will also renew calls for an overhaul of freedom of information laws

 
In a speech to the Chifley Research Centre Conference in Sydney on Saturday, Mr Albanese will criticise online platforms for being unwilling to filter out content, even when it is wrong.
*He will reference images circulated on Facebook doctored to show Mr Albanese purportedly supporting men's rights activist Leith Erikson's campaign against the Family Court.*

*"Now, here's the rub: unless you'd seen the original, there is no way that you would know the image was a fake. My words were replaced with Mr Erikson's. The image even included my legal authorisation at the bottom — a clear breach of Australia's electoral laws," he will say.*

"When we raised this with Facebook, they shrugged. They said it wasn't a breach of community guidelines.

"What then happens when platforms become so complacent with misinformation that they become unable to filter it out?"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-07/anthony-albanese-to-take-a-swipe-at-facebook/11775490


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## SirRumpole (7 December 2019)

basilio said:


> Back to fake news - and Facebook refusing to do anything about black and white examples of poisonous stories.
> Print Email  Facebook  Twitter  More
> *Anthony Albanese to take aim at social media giants, accusing them of robbing politics of civility*
> Federal Labor leader Anthony Albanese will take a swing at Facebook in his last major speech of the political year, accusing the social media giant of being complacent with false information.
> ...




Fair points he raises.

There needs to be much stronger action taken against posters and platforms.

Making misrepresentation a criminal offence may make a lot of people think twice about spreading falsities.


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## basilio (10 December 2019)

One of the biggest lies peddled by Boris Johnston  about Labour is saying  they intend to get rid of the Capital Gains tax on the family home. Basically Labour is after your home. Scary stuff indeed.

This lie was run across The Mail on Sunday and then re-peddled by Boris. 

Finally, finally an official complaint against the lie has seen "action"   but not until the election is over.

* Why do I have to break an embargo in order to expose press lies about Labour? *
George Monbiot
We’ve taken on the Mail on Sunday and won. But the newspaper regulator won’t correct the story till after the election

 @GeorgeMonbiot 
Tue 10 Dec 2019 17.00 AEDT   Last modified on Tue 10 Dec 2019 17.02 AEDT

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One of the golden rules of journalism is that you don’t break an embargo – a block on publication until a certain date. For the first time in my career, I’m breaking one now. The moral case for doing so outweighs the moral case for respecting it.

For five months the press regulator, Ipso, which was set up by British newspapers, has been considering a complaint that could play a role in this election. It concerns an outrageous lie about the Labour party first published by the Mail on Sunday and repeated many times by other newspapers and the Conservative party.

Two weeks ago, Ipso ruled against the paper, and imposed a major sanction. The Mail on Sunday asked for a review of the decision, delaying its publication.

As far as voters are concerned, the lie stands. A key claim used to tip the balance against Labour remains uncorrected.

The review upheld the decision, but it still hasn’t been published. So, as far as voters are concerned, the lie stands. A key claim used to tip the balance against Labour remains uncorrected. I owe more to the truth than I do to the embargo.

....  The rewards for political lying are massive: they include winning referendums and elections. The penalties are either nonexistent or tiny. If the Conservative party is sanctioned by the Electoral Commission for any of its outrageous lying and cheating, it might, long after the election, have to pay the maximum fine of £20,000, which a friendly billionaire could doubtless pull out of his back pocket.

*If elections are won by lies, we find ourselves governed by liars. * They won’t hesitate to ramp up their deceptions when in office. One focus is likely to be voter suppression. Already the Conservatives, learning from Republican tricks in the US, have floated the idea that people must bring photo ID to the polling booths. They know that 3.5 million people, few of whom are likely to vote Conservative, don’t possess it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/10/break-embargo-expose-press-lies-labour
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...s-mail-on-sunday-over-labour-movers-tax-claim


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## sptrawler (10 December 2019)

Jeez I hope this is all tonque in cheek, how either side of politics can take the high moral ground on honesty, is beyond the pale.
It just appears that anyone can start a 'band wagon' and all the virtue signalers jump on board.
I guess eventually the cause, will be a righteous one, rather than an emotional crusade that tries to steamroll any debate .


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## qldfrog (10 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez I hope this is all tonque in cheek, how either side of politics can take the high moral ground on honesty, is beyond the pale.
> It just appears that anyone can start a 'band wagon' and all the virtue signalers jump on board.
> I guess eventually the cause, will be a righteous one, rather than an emotional crusade that tries to steamroll any debate .



Tell him he is dreaming...
Nothing can go against the good words
We have people telling crap aware of it but ok with that because it is for the good cause
Anything as long as it results in a move they think is the right one
I really like that article
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...kZ5hg6-8iFEH2_10uX1E-21QaJWqgAr0#de22c2512d6a


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## qldfrog (10 December 2019)

An


sptrawler said:


> Jeez I hope this is all tonque in cheek, how either side of politics can take the high moral ground on honesty, is beyond the pale.
> It just appears that anyone can start a 'band wagon' and all the virtue signalers jump on board.
> I guess eventually the cause, will be a righteous one, rather than an emotional crusade that tries to steamroll any debate .



And by the way nice to see your cruise was not in NZ and you did not go to observe bubbling geisers there


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## basilio (10 December 2019)

Interesting take on truth by SP and Qfrog. Seems as if there is no lie that can be made up about non right parties that creates any sort of concern.
Trump was right wasn't he ? He could shoot someone in broad daylight in New York and get away with it. After all why would anyone whose  opinion  he thinks is worth worrying about actually believe he did it ?

The bottom line is clear. You all seem comfortable with it.

*If elections are won by lies we will be governed by liars.*


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## sptrawler (10 December 2019)

basilio said:


> Interesting take on truth by SP and Qfrog. Seems as if there is no lie that can be made up about non right parties that creates any sort of concern.
> Trump was right wasn't he ? He could shoot someone in broad daylight in New York and get away with it. After all why would anyone whose  opinion  he thinks is worth worrying about actually believe he did it ?
> 
> The bottom line is clear. You all seem comfortable with it.
> ...



I wouldn't mind, if the same amount of gusto was put in by yourself, into negative press reports when those who you hold so highly are denigrated for similar indiscretions or indeed any indiscretions.
Volumes of superfluous accusations and postings, doesn't in itself make something true, untill it is proven.
Until then it is the ramblings of those on a crusade, ala the Isreal Folau case, where the press said that RA had a 'slam dunk' case to blow Folau out of the water, yet when push came to shove they had nothing but their own narrow minded virtue signalling beliefs.
Just my opinion.
I've always said, I love your passion, but find your lack of understanding of the issues or opposing arguments, usually undermines it.
Take for example Trump, you post up endless dribble and chook fodder from any and every source, yet Trump even though he may be the most unsavory person you would ever meet, is taking on the Chinese and their decimation of international manufacturing and intellectual theft. Which in reality is collapsing our living standard, but you never mention anything about that? Yet that is what is going to affect your children and grand children's living standards


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## qldfrog (10 December 2019)

Nive find about the uk election, now if Brexit wins, we will have 5 y of they lied, they /them are not legitimate etc
Remind you something?
Does this mean Labour is not even considering a win?
Or just insurance?


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## sptrawler (10 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> An
> 
> And by the way nice to see your cruise was not in NZ and you did not go to observe bubbling geisers there



We went to Kagoshima, which has an active volcano just off shore as in NZ, the last thing I was going to do was go over to it.
I am old enough to remember the St Helens pictures, unlike some, I can learn from the experience of others.


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## sptrawler (10 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Nive find about the uk election, now if Brexit wins, we will have 5 y of they lied, they /them are not legitimate etc
> Remind you something?
> Does this mean Labour is not even considering a win?
> Or just insurance?



What will be more interesting will be, if Johson wins and in five years time the U.K is doing really well, we will hear very little.
If they are doing worse, it will be World news to warn everyone, who dares go against the establishment and the press.


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## qldfrog (10 December 2019)

So


basilio said:


> Interesting take on truth by SP and Qfrog. Seems as if there is no lie that can be made up about non right parties that creates any sort of concern.
> Trump was right wasn't he ? He could shoot someone in broad daylight in New York and get away with it. After all why would anyone whose  opinion  he thinks is worth worrying about actually believe he did it ?
> 
> The bottom line is clear. You all seem comfortable with it.
> ...



 Did you read this link.simple question?
Anything you can point as being wrong? Please do, i need ,actually wish i could join your crusade
And if not, does that not mean that terrible lies are being propagated by "your" side..you know
Us vs  they, them, the right, the subhumans who doubt the cause...
That is the essence of this thread.

I have no real problem with fake news.i expect  them from all sides.but i have a problem and take issue when people supposedly relatively educated are blinded by a fanatism i never saw before but on religious nutcracks, Muslims crazies and integrist Christians....
And they can not even see it themselves
 as to admit, that would be defeat..sptrawler or qfrog would win....
Do you realise i and probably others do not care about being right or wrong, we or i at least want to find and see the truth.
There is a lot of i, you see it is a personal honesty issue, not a group not a we think
And for my own position, i would never allow for lies even if it leads to a good or better outcome.
To each his own


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## basilio (10 December 2019)

I raised the issue of how Boris Johnston  made up a BIG lie about Labours  election policy to scare people intro voting Tory. The question of people paying capital gains tax on their home is important and certainly would sway voters. To say Labour is proposing such an action when their policy platform rules that out seems just an out and out lie.

In fact of course  Boris Johnsons form on the Brexit vote however is identical.  He just lies.

Donald Trump ? What can you say ? If people don't understand the principals behind separation of powers, not using government positions for personal gains, and good governance then certainly he is your man.

It is not a government or a democracy. Its a kleptocracy. Last time I looked that wasn't what the US was supposed to be .  But times change dopn't they folks ? We have to get used to new ways of thinking don't we ?

As far as Qfrogs link ?  What is happening around the world? If people can't look at the fires that have raged across the US, Alaska, Northern Europe Brazil and Australia and can't recognise a serious problem - I can't help them.
If we can't see  now that rising temperatures are making our country so much more vulnerable to bushfires then I can't see what will change peoples mind.

Michael Shellenberger has a number of critical pieces of misinformation in his article.
1) He believes that nuclear power is a better cost effective alternative than renewables.. This is just factually wrong. End of story.

2) He argues that  coal power is a better option for poorer counties  It isn't. Again end of story.  In 2020 a mix of renewable energy and storage systems is simply more cost effective than new coal fired power stations. We have the figures in Australia. They translate across the world. That doesn't even take into account the effects of pollution on health

One could go through his entire story and point out quite ridiculous arguments.  In which universe will it be practical for all coastal based cities to protect themselves from a metre increase in sea levels ?  He cites the Netherlands as an example of a success. Yes. Over hundreds of years with a small area and  *certainly not tackling the levels of sea rise we are facing.*

He also completely  ignores the the impact of 2-3 degrees increase in temperature across the world. Be quite clear about this.  Those sort of temperature increase will make large sections of the earth uninhabitable for humans and most of our current ecosystems. 

https://www.livescience.com/58891-why-2-degrees-celsius-increase-matters.html

For a more realistic understanding of what we are facing NASA  is a more sober source.
https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/


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## qldfrog (11 December 2019)

basilio said:


> I raised the issue of how Boris Johnston  made up a BIG lie about Labours  election policy to scare people intro voting Tory. The question of people paying capital gains tax on their home is important and certainly would sway voters. To say Labour is proposing such an action when their policy platform rules that out seems just an out and out lie.
> 
> In fact of course  Boris Johnsons form on the Brexit vote however is identical.  He just lies.
> 
> ...



As i said @basilio, the new fanatics
During that time,, and just as another example we are releasing crisp modified genes all over the world, and you do not have to be a Nobel prise winner to imagine what will happen if the gene cut affects a virus or bacteria and transform its signature.
Or just the simple idea of going from 8 to 12 billions  by the end of the century
So even IF we were to agree on the fact CO2 is a threat, i will still state that any realistic projection will see this as a minor issue vs the rest of the plague we are releasing in this world be it ecosystem collapse, religion fanatism,etc etc
Unless we blame CC for it as well..
The simplest solutions are easy to sell and often wrong
Blame the Jews
Blame the communists
Blame the capitalists
Blame the rich(er)s
And now blame GW...
Less tigers water snow insects or bees, blame GW
That is now an easy fake news indicator.
For the tax on housing in the UK you mention, fair it is a nasty but the new Labour leader there is a rabid extreme communist and i do not doubt as full of lies as the opponents
.from memory, he is telling the right want to dismantle the nhs, etc
BS as well
You remember the mediscare here?
Uk is voting on Brexit Point.


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## wayneL (11 December 2019)

Hey @basilio 

anyone who believes the other side are always thieves and liars and those who support them as deplorables etcetera, and then on the same hand, believes everyone from theie own side as paragons of virtue, is really just a freakin idiot.

We're all biased in favour of our own side but, Jesus Christ, man! Such one eyed delusion is embarrassing!


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## IFocus (11 December 2019)

Complaints about one side accusing the other only ever getting coverage.

There is a problem with this line of thinking........which side of politics currently are in power through out the western world.....eh?

Next question how is it we are seeing the greatest transfer of wealth ever in the modern era......eh?

That's before we get to the biggest unfunded tax handouts to wealthy / corporations creating one of the greatest government budget debts seen in the US and likely coming to AU.

Then there is the reductions of workers rights and conditions, containment of wages (read about Amazon workers).....slave labour.......slave labour oh yeah de-regulation gig economy anyone FFS

Lets try the Australian version everyone's mate, baseball cap wearing fossil uses attack laws to go after workers reps while Banks rip off people blind for billions, yep really unfair to criticise our best mate FFS.

Defending Trump.....really? Thats right its OK because Hillary would have been worse, god help us.

Nice bubble, FYJIAOR, medication what ever it is.

Then we get to the  the quite people.........is that what you want?


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## rederob (11 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> So even IF we were to agree on the fact CO2 is a threat, i will still state that any realistic projection will see this as a minor issue vs the rest of the plague we are releasing in this world be it ecosystem collapse, religion fanatism,etc etc



The problem with your opinions is that they are just guesses.
There are bodies of evidence that vividly show what has so far happened, and that the probable trajectory cannot be overcome in the next hundred years even assuming that if tomorrow CO2 levels show zero additional anthropogenic contributions over that period.
Where you read and quote from are not where knowledge lies and it tempers your judgement.
I don't suffer any allusions about you changing your nature but I do care when people indiscriminately peddle fake news because it reinforces the world view that keeps them stable. 
In a completely different forum I recently showed that if you think the planet is not flat then you are relying on people who are trained to prove these matters rather than your own supreme intellect.
In journalism it is not much different as nowadays it's so much easier to get to source material and work out for yourself where the "truth" lies (if you enjoy that juxtaposition).
The most amazing case of current denial exists in the Presidential impeachment hearings where Republicans have prostituted reality to create a narrative that the President is actually a "victim."  More telling is that on Party lines this "belief" is credible and no amount of actual "fact evidence" from witnesses can sway Trump's supporters.
And now for the clincher: To prove Trump's case has been a reliance on refusing to make witnesses and documents available... in others words by proactively hiding important information you can claim almost anything if your audience is gullible.


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## moXJO (11 December 2019)

rederob said:


> The problem with your opinions is that they are just guesses.
> There are bodies of evidence that vividly show what has so far happened, and that the probable trajectory cannot be overcome in the next hundred years even assuming that if tomorrow CO2 levels show zero additional anthropogenic contributions over that period.
> Where you read and quote from are not where knowledge lies and it tempers your judgement.
> I don't suffer any allusions about you changing your nature but I do care when people indiscriminately peddle fake news because it reinforces the world view that keeps them stable.
> ...



Not sure you are the best guy to be pointing out where the "facts" lie.

You are 20/ 80 at best....


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## wayneL (11 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> Complaints about one side accusing the other only ever getting coverage.
> 
> There is a problem with this line of thinking........which side of politics currently are in power through out the western world.....eh?
> 
> ...



...and I need not say anything else


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## qldfrog (11 December 2019)

When you give a fanatic a link to a text by a real climate believer stating the obvious exageration and fake facts being promoted, and the damage this does to the cause
He points first that this guy is pro nuclear..as basically that's it, no point arguing facts
He is white, old, gay, whatever so the fact stated do not count
@IFocus you want to maintain a less rabid position, why no answer on that one?
Still this anything for the cause?
Is that the moral position of the saviours of the world
Could that guy be too rich or not leftist enough or not black enough to state any truth
It will really hurt you hard if you have any conscience in a couple of decades when you will have to admit to the damage you did to both your country..ohh sorry no such name....and the world


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## rederob (11 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Not sure you are the best guy to be pointing out where the "facts" lie.



The issue confronting you is to do better, yet you cannot, but happily spread falsehoods.


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## rederob (11 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> When you give a fanatic a link to a text by a real climate believer stating the obvious exageration and fake facts being promoted, and the damage this does to the cause



Bas made some good points, but you do what you always do, and indulge in spurious rants because never have you been able to understand climate science.
Fake news is about perpetuating untruths, and that's what you do best.
Bas does put huge amounts of into into threads - not my style - and the majority is directly linked to prevailing scientific findings.
Try shooting down the *message *if you believe your understanding is at odds with what is posted and make a positive contribution to threads for a change.


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## cynic (11 December 2019)

Could dissonance and misattribution be contributing factors here? 


> The issue confronting you is to do better, yet you cannot, but happily spread falsehoods.




https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-22710-005


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## moXJO (11 December 2019)

rederob said:


> The issue confronting you is to do better, yet you cannot, but happily spread falsehoods.



The issue confronting me is fanatics who cannot step off their virtue signaling on any center/right bashing ways. Parading truth with fiction affects both ends of the spectrum. But it seems to be a leftist specialty. Perhaps its some kind of delusional ailment where you skip past reason and head straight to crazyville.

You guys have no problem head nodding on issues completely devoid of evidence as if its an open and shut case. 
Truly worrying development in the world.


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## rederob (11 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> The issue confronting me is fanatics who cannot step off their virtue signaling on any center/right bashing ways. Parading truth with fiction affects both ends of the spectrum. But it seems to be a leftist specialty. Perhaps its some kind of delusional ailment where you skip past reason and head straight to crazyville.
> 
> You guys have no problem head nodding on issues completely devoid of evidence as if its an open and shut case.
> Truly worrying development in the world.



In another thread I saw how you contorted your ideas about Greta Thunberg's *media machine* into so many knots you choked yourself to death.
Telltale signs of incompetence in presenting a case are quickly found when a range of tactics and terms are used instead of facts, and you are good at ticking those boxes.
Aside from failing to address what is at issue, you use phrases like "virtue signalling" and invoke political leanings.  
When we show your ideas to be poorly founded you re-present them, as if wanting to be punished again for your your ignorance.
It gets a bit tedious at ASF and folk like @Smurf1976 have stepped away from much of the shenanigans for good reason.


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## wayneL (11 December 2019)

Yeah! I think "toxic virtue signalling" is more accurate.


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## moXJO (11 December 2019)

rederob said:


> In another thread I saw how you contorted your ideas about Greta Thunberg's *media machine* into so many knots you choked yourself to death.
> Telltale signs of incompetence in presenting a case are quickly found when a range of tactics and terms are used instead of facts, and you are good at ticking those boxes.
> Aside from failing to address what is at issue, you use phrases like "virtue signalling" and invoke political leanings.
> When we show your ideas to be poorly founded you re-present them, as if wanting to be punished again for your your ignorance.
> It gets a bit tedious at ASF and folk like @Smurf1976 have stepped away from much of the shenanigans for good reason.



Actually I was to lazy to continue the discussion. 90% of the time you spin as you go. Such as Chaplins leanings or the law surrounding the folau case. Greta was another one,  I just couldn't be bothered continuing. Trying to thesaurus your way out of an argument gets old quick.


----------



## cynic (11 December 2019)

How's this for a bit of interesting  (although somewhat dated) news?!
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/good-news/2019/11/20/greta-thunberg-time-traveller/


----------



## cynic (11 December 2019)

And with revelations like this:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/weir...time-traveller-prediction-US-president-ApexTV

Americans shall most certainly know how to cast their votes in future presidential elections.


----------



## rederob (12 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Actually I was to lazy to continue the discussion. 90% of the time you spin as you go. Such as Chaplins leanings or the law surrounding the folau case. Greta was another one,  I just couldn't be bothered continuing. Trying to thesaurus your way out of an argument gets old quick.



You posted copiously and in the case of Thunberg never showed what you said was credible, so nice try but truly delusional - go back and read those those threads.


----------



## cynic (12 December 2019)

> You posted copiously and in the case of Thunberg never showed what you said was credible, so nice try but truly delusional - go back and read those those threads.



Wow!

I am uncertain as to what it was that moxjo posted attracting such criticism!

It must have been pretty wild!

Especially considering that my postings of articles, suggesting the possibility of messianic time travellers, have yet to draw so much as a single derisive comment!


----------



## moXJO (12 December 2019)

rederob said:


> You posted copiously and in the case of Thunberg never showed what you said was credible, so nice try but truly delusional - go back and read those those threads.



Hardly,  Greta was a manufactured product that failed. If anything large emitting countries moved further away from doing anything. Everything I said was backed up. You basically dribbled spin, backed up by your delusion that your posts are somehow automatically fact checked and passed.


----------



## moXJO (12 December 2019)

cynic said:


> Wow!
> 
> I am uncertain as to what it was that moxjo posted attracting such criticism!
> 
> ...



We just like to argue. 25 years of marriage together will do that.


----------



## rederob (12 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> Hardly,  Greta was a manufactured product that failed.



Your claim is evidenced by what, exactly?


----------



## moXJO (12 December 2019)

rederob said:


> Your claim is evidenced by what, exactly?



The guy that did the al gore course, wanted to be just like him and promoted the sht out of her. Eventually got the arse but he kicked the ball rolling.
Or you could actually look for yourself for once. Pretty sure I already linked everything.


----------



## cynic (12 December 2019)

This one sounds serious!

Let's hold on to the hope that this turns out to be something less malign, like a brewery mishap, rather than a side effect of climate change!
https://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/176059/geyser-erupts-in-downtown-chicago/#more-176059


----------



## cynic (12 December 2019)

The world's most talented canine psychic, for two years running, predicts events in the coming year:

https://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/176337/sleepy-dog-2020-predictions/#more-176337


----------



## rederob (12 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> The guy that did the al gore course, wanted to be just like him and promoted the sht out of her. Eventually got the arse but he kicked the ball rolling.
> Or you could actually look for yourself for once. Pretty sure I already linked everything.



As usual, a vacuous claim with nothing to support it except for your own assertions!


----------



## cynic (12 December 2019)

And in more recent news:

https://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/176408/7-foot-belgians-can-hear-the-past/#more-176408


----------



## moXJO (12 December 2019)

rederob said:


> As usual, a vacuous claim with nothing to support it except for your own assertions!



Says the guy unable to look for himself.....


----------



## sptrawler (25 December 2019)

Politicians starting to get serious about fake news.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...elections-facebook-social-media-a8140721.html

amazing what you can find on the internet, while waiting to head off for Christmas lunch.lol


----------



## rederob (25 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> amazing what you can find on the internet, while waiting to head off for Christmas lunch.lol



... took another year before you got talking turkey again .
Enjoy!


----------



## cynic (25 December 2019)

Speaking of turkeys, it appears that these two (Bread and Butter) were honoured with pardons from POTUS, last thanksgiving!

https://pulse.ncpolicywatch.org/201...rkeys-mocks-impeachment-hearings-media-video/

How lucky can two birds get! Just when they thought that their cheaps were down and that they were about to be thoroughly plucked, along came Don to pardon them of all those Trumped up charges!


----------



## basilio (29 December 2019)

*The difference between lies and Bullxhit
*

*Understand the difference between lies and bull**** — it matters*
 
Philosopher Harry Frankfurt famously drew a distinction between lies and what he termed "bull****".

A lie is an untruth, but it is still tied to a fact. It is the corruption of the fact. bull**** is speech with no basis in fact, in truth. Many of us think we live in an age of lies, when in fact we live in an age of bull****.

bull**** is like belief, its embrace affords no room for questioning.

Frankfurt's notion of bull**** can help us better understand the nature of modern politics, advertising, news and even science (think climate change denial or anti-vaxxers).

It's important for the future because it underpins the futility of trying to convince people with facts alone, because if you're persuaded by bull****, facts don't matter.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12...chnology-antony-funnell-future-tense/11773096


----------



## cynic (29 December 2019)

https://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/176534/bad-luck-befalls-book-of-job-the-musical/#more-176534


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 December 2019)

basilio said:


> Philosopher Harry Frankfurt famously drew a distinction between lies and what he termed "bull****".
> 
> A lie is an untruth, but it is still tied to a fact. It is the corruption of the fact. bull**** is speech with no basis in fact, in truth.




A lie can also be an honest mistake, misinterpretation of the situation or simply failing to distinguish a soundly based expectation from hard fact whereas BS is always BS.


----------



## rederob (30 December 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> A lie can also be an honest mistake, misinterpretation of the situation or simply failing to distinguish a soundly based expectation from hard fact whereas BS is always BS.



Not in the English language, that is if you are correctly using English.
Lies have *intentionality*.
You described errors, mistakes, misinterpretations and even omissions which never purposely intended to mislead.  Our language has words for these contexts which are reasoned and explanatory.


----------



## wayneL (30 December 2019)

basilio said:


> *The difference between lies and Bullxhit
> *
> 
> *Understand the difference between lies and bull**** — it matters*
> ...



That's actually quite funny coming from the suppository (sic) of all Guardianista "truth"


----------



## basilio (30 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> That's actually quite funny coming from the suppository (sic) of all Guardianista "truth"




Wayne given your total disregard of reality I would have thought you could appreciate the finer points of difference between deliberate or inadvertent lies/misrepresentations /whatever and people just opening their  mouth and spilling out utter BS most of the time.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

basilio said:


> Wayne given your total disregard of reality I would have thought you could appreciate the finer points of difference between deliberate or inadvertent lies/misrepresentations /whatever and people just opening their  mouth and spilling out utter BS most of the time.



Well here we go again, underlining your very words Bas.
Out come the pitchforks and the cross eyed mob, to attack Margaret Court yet again.
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/margar...tralia-recognition-looms-20191230-p53nji.html

From the article:
"_And you know with that LGBT, they'll wish they never put the T on the end of it because, particularly in women's sports, they're going to have so many problems"_.

So that was the condemns trans athletes comment, well it seems like a pretty sensible comment to me, if they end up winning all the money in women's tennis there will be hell to pay IMO. So to speak.


----------



## wayneL (31 December 2019)

basilio said:


> Wayne given your total disregard of reality I would have thought you could appreciate the finer points of difference between deliberate or inadvertent lies/misrepresentations /whatever and people just opening their  mouth and spilling out utter BS most of the time.



Are you intentionally try to cause my guffaws?

I mean you do have a point, but the hilarious part is that you don't see that you and the left are 90% of the problem.


----------



## rederob (31 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> From the article:
> "_And you know with that LGBT, they'll wish they never put the T on the end of it because, particularly in women's sports, they're going to have so many problems"_.
> 
> So that was the condemns trans athletes comment, well it seems like a pretty sensible comment to me, if they end up winning all the money in women's tennis there will be hell to pay IMO. So to speak.



Margaret Court also said *“God made us that way.”*
Please think through the logic of that comment.
It implies that this magical God either forgot s/he made us this way, does not care s/he did, does not care about the consequences, *or *really intended that people can be transgender after they are born.
In other words, those like Court who ascribe to *the idea that God has a plan for us all must have included all of us in that plan to begin.*
Of course the corollary is that God is fictional and we choose our own destiny.


----------



## cynic (31 December 2019)

And in more recent news:

https://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/176654/war-on-new-years-is-on/#more-176654


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

rederob said:


> Margaret Court also said *“God made us that way.”*
> Please think through the logic of that comment.
> It implies that this magical God either forgot s/he made us this way, does not care s/he did, does not care about the consequences, *or *really intended that people can be transgender after they are born.
> In other words, those like Court who ascribe to *the idea that God has a plan for us all must have included all of us in that plan to begin.*
> Of course the corollary is that God is fictional and we choose our own destiny.



I agree with your last comment, but I also think Margaret Court should be allowed to have her own opinion, as we do. 
Also she should be allowed to voice them, to a congregation which want to hear her opinion, without the press trying to whip up hysteria.


----------



## rederob (31 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with your last comment, but I also think Margaret Court should be allowed to have her own opinion, as we do.
> Also she should be allowed to voice them, to a congregation which want to hear her opinion, without the press trying to whip up hysteria.



Nothing stops people saying stupid things.
Nothing stops people from saying that others say stupid things.
As a West Australian I idolised her in the era she played and would have loved to see her become a role model to women in sport instead of a female Folau.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

rederob said:


> Nothing stops people saying stupid things.
> Nothing stops people from saying that others say stupid things.
> As a West Australian I idolised her in the era she played and would have loved to see her become a role model to women in sport instead of a female Folau.



It is a bit unfortunate, I don't like anyone trying to push their beliefs on me, whether they be religious, sexual or anything else. They can believe what they like and they can say it to anyone who wants to listen, but I'm not interested.
As for her and Folau, if people want to go to their church and hear what they say, they can, if people don't like what they hear, ignore it or go to a different church.
Just my opinion, but there are way too many bullies out there at the moment and they are getting away with way too much.
The more the bullies get away with, the more the boundaries are pushed and more take up bullying.
It becomes the prefered option, because at the moment it is extremely successful, eventually it will have to be curbed.
Just my opinion.


----------



## rederob (31 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Just my opinion, but there are way too many bullies out there at the moment and they are getting away with way too much.
> The more the bullies get away with, the more the boundaries are pushed and more take up bullying.
> It becomes the prefered option, because at the moment it is extremely successful, eventually it will have to be curbed.
> Just my opinion.



We are all different, but it does not give others a right to disrespect us, for any reason, and that's what the likes of Court and Folau have been doing.
It's your opinion that it is the Folaus and Courts of the world who are being "bullied," and it is the opinion of those they speak ill of who in fact consider it is they who are being bullied.
This is the 21st century and we still have people who can command media attention to spread their bile on those they do not understand.
You have a warped view of who is doing the bullying and have never had to live your life facing regular scorn or persecution.  And here you are happy condone celebrities who abide by an ancient book of mostly fiction while suggesting that people who call out the real bullies are "*getting away with it*."


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

rederob said:


> We are all different, but it does not give others a right to disrespect us, for any reason, and that's what the likes of Court and Folau have been doing.
> It's your opinion that it is the Folaus and Courts of the world who are being "bullied," and it is the opinion of those they speak ill of who in fact consider it is they who are being bullied.
> This is the 21st century and we still have people who can command media attention to spread their bile on those they do not understand.
> You have a warped view of who is doing the bullying and have never had to live your life facing regular scorn or persecution.  And here you are happy condone celebrities who abide by an ancient book of mostly fiction while suggesting that people who call out the real bullies are "*getting away with it*."



If it wasn't given airplay, no one would know anything about it, except for the few that visit the Church they are in and probably hold the same belief.
The ones who want to force them to change their beliefs, have the ear of the whole nation and use it to good effect.
 But I know you love to argue, so I will leave it.


----------



## IFocus (31 December 2019)

I always struggle with the fact the likes of Court and Folau fail the most basic test of their own beliefs and thats the teachings of JC love and acceptance of all.

I also admire both (sporting prowess) but when they decide to go public using their status to push their views then they are fair game for opinions for or against those beliefs.

If there is free speech (there isnt) then its free for all not just for those who push their beliefs.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> I always struggle with the fact the likes of Court and Folau fail the most basic test of their own beliefs and thats the teachings of JC love and acceptance of all.
> 
> I also admire both (sporting prowess) but when they decide to go public using their status to push their views then they are fair game for opinions for or against those beliefs.
> 
> If there is free speech (there isnt) then its free for all not just for those who push their beliefs.



I agree with all of that.
The news article quoting Margaret Court, was taken from her talking in a Church, one would think it contained like minded people. Smacks a bit of media stalking to me, but i could be wrong.


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> If there is free speech (there isnt) then its free for all not just for those who push their beliefs.




The trouble is that rather a lot of people have a desire to control others.

The latest seems to be about fireworks in Sydney.

First they tried saying it was offensive. Then they seemingly realised nobody was taking that seriously so then they switched to fire hazards. Now that the RFS has said no problem they’ve switched to saying it’s about the hot weather.

In other words they just don’t like them and want to take away something that many people enjoy watching, using the fires as a convenient excuse to push the agenda.

Same with a lot of things. It’s all about control not about what’s good or bad and the Left and Right are both guilty.

End result is no progress gets made on things which actually do matter and the country slides slowly backwards.


----------



## rederob (31 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> If it wasn't given airplay, no one would know anything about it, except for the few that visit the Church they are in and probably hold the same belief.
> The ones who want to force them to change their beliefs, have the ear of the whole nation and use it to good effect.
> But I know you love to argue, so I will leave it.



Here's the problem with your thinking: Court and Folau are welcome to think about really dumb stuff and in private they are welcome to espouse it to whoever they like.  However, when they want to spread their vindictive views in public it is they who become the "*bullies*" and it is they who want others to share their ancient views.
I have a suspicion that if Court was advocating *slavery* because it too is in the Bible, then your views might be a bit different.
Minorities continue to suffer at the hands of ignorant people and I personally find the idea of you or anyone supporting their persecutors to be anathema.


----------



## greggles (31 December 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> In other words they just don’t like them and want to take away something that many people enjoy watching, using the fires as a convenient excuse to push the agenda.
> 
> Same with a lot of things. It’s all about control not about what’s good or bad and the Left and Right are both guilty.




I thought this was the Australian way. Try and spoil the fun for everyone so we can go back to whinging about everything and being pissed off.

I may get bashed for this, but IMO Aussies are the greatest spoilsports and fun wreckers of all the nations on Earth. Remember when we used to accuse the Poms of being whingers? Now it's the Aussies who are the world champion whingers. No other nation even comes close. We have refined the art form.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

rederob said:


> Here's the problem with your thinking: Court and Folau are welcome to think about really dumb stuff and in private they are welcome to espouse it to whoever they like.  However, when they want to spread their vindictive views in public it is they who become the "*bullies*" and it is they who want others to share their ancient views.
> I have a suspicion that if Court was advocating *slavery* because it too is in the Bible, then your views might be a bit different.
> Minorities continue to suffer at the hands of ignorant people and I personally find the idea of you or anyone supporting their persecutors to be anathema.



Like I said, it wasn't said in an interview, she was in her Church, the press is the one putting it into the public domain.
To quote someone:
Minorities continue to suffer at the hands of ignorant people and I personally find the idea of you or anyone supporting their persecutors to be anathema.
*You have a warped view of who is doing the bullying and* *have never had to live your life facing regular scorn or persecution*.#259

How do you know what I have had to live through? Again pushing your beliefs while using unfounded aspersions, against people you know nothing about, to try to somehow garner the upper hand.
Sounds like a bully to me.


----------



## rederob (31 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> How do you know what I have had to live through? Again pushing your beliefs while using unfounded aspersions, against people you know nothing about, to try to somehow garner the upper hand.
> Sounds like a bully to me.



This is about what is happening in the public arena (maybe you have not yet worked out its reach?) and if you want to make it personal then take it out of this forum.
There are very few who would think that the LGBQTI community either have been or are treated fairly, and for media personalities - and Court has put herself into the limelight - to continue to disparage them in the public arena is a low act.
Read what you have written: you are suggesting *she is being bullied *for her beliefs.  Again, her beliefs are simply not at issue as it is where she is choosing to promulgate them that is the problem.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

rederob said:


> This is about what is happening in the public arena (maybe you have not yet worked out its reach?) and if you want to make it personal then take it out of this forum.
> There are very few who would think that the LGBQTI community either have been or are treated fairly, and for media personalities - and Court has put herself into the limelight - to continue to disparage them in the public arena is a low act.
> Read what you have written: you are suggesting *she is being bullied *for her beliefs.  Again, her beliefs are simply not at issue as it is where she is choosing to promulgate them that is the problem.



There is only you, who is getting personal Rob. I was only responding to your attack.


----------



## rederob (31 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> There is only you who is getting personal Rob. I was only responding to your attack.



Please re-read the posts as I have consistently attacked the idea that thinking of Margaret Court as being bullied is completely back to front, and that you appear to think the opposite.
When Court's views are shared on Youtube your defence of her position becomes questionable unless you are of the view that it is ok for minorities to continue to be the subject of derision by personalities able to command a media profile.  I would hope and trust that is *not *you.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

rederob said:


> When Court's views are shared on Youtube your defence of her position becomes questionable unless you are of the view that it is ok for minorities to continue to be the subject of derision by personalities able to command a media profile.  *I would hope and trust that is not you*.



What if Court's views were put on facebook maliciously, as it may well have been, who knows?

It is like any belief driven organisation be it christians, muslims, free masons etc, they probably say some things in their meetings, that someone will take exception to.
So do you vet all meetings of all organisations, to ensure they don't say something that will upset someone?
Is it against the law, to say something that will offend someone, if so there are laws to cover it?
Do I agree with their beliefs? not many, most are fairy tales.

I have been subject to derision,in the public arena, by you today and it hasn't upset me.
So I guess it isn't in my nature, to get too wound up, I'm more of a live and let live kind of person.


----------



## wayneL (31 December 2019)

Court's statement was regarding biological males playing against biological females being unfair, was it not (haven't really been paying that much attention so correct me if I'm wrong)?

I would have thought that that was a matter of scientific fact rather than any ancient belief. Absolutely fair comment and nothing to do with bullying whatsoever.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Court's statement was regarding biological males playing against biological females being unfair, was it not (haven't really been paying that much attention so correct me if I'm wrong)?
> 
> I would have thought that that was a matter of scientific fact rather than any ancient belief. Absolutely fair comment and nothing to do with bullying whatsoever.



From what i read, tennis is thinking about recognising transgender players in their chosen gender, Margaret Court said it will cause a lot of problems in women's tennis.
The headline said she condemns trans athletes.
This article probably explains the problems Court was talking about.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...nya-south-africa-race-final-800m-testosterone


----------



## IFocus (31 December 2019)

greggles said:


> I thought this was the Australian way. Try and spoil the fun for everyone so we can go back to whinging about everything and being pissed off.
> 
> *I may get bashed for this*, but IMO Aussies are the greatest spoilsports and fun wreckers of all the nations on Earth. Remember when we used to accuse the Poms of being whingers? Now it's the Aussies who are the world champion whingers. No other nation even comes close. We have refined the art form.




I hope not different views are always welcome the answers not so much 

I agree about the whinging but suspect we would disagree as to what about.

I think  good Australian traits still around is a healthy cynicism and back yard cricket


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

IFocus said:


> I hope not different views are always welcome the answers not so much
> 
> I agree about the whinging but suspect we would disagree as to what about.
> 
> I think  good Australian traits still around is a healthy cynicism and back yard cricket



As long as you don't have sand paper in your pocket, it doesn't work on a tennis ball anyway.


----------



## IFocus (31 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> As long as you don't have sand paper in your pocket, it doesn't work on a tennis ball anyway.




I usually just spike the drinks..........win at all cost


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 December 2019)

I'll simply say that I disagree with many things but consider that restricting the right of others to express their views is a slippery slope any benefits of which are outweighed by the risks.

Gag one thing now then it's something else and so on. That seems like a very dangerous concept to be silencing dissent.

For clarity though well I generally don't agree with churches on just about anything. OK, they have a point with the "treat each other nicely" stuff but beyond that count me out and I'm firmly in the liberal minded camp of people making their own decisions.

Israel Folau - hell no he's far too conservative. Stuff that it sounds way too boring.

Same sex marriage - was there ever a valid "no" argument? That one should've been sorted in the 1990's.

Euthanasia - why isn't this one sorted yet? Just get it done, there's no valid argument for pain and suffering just legalize it ASAP and by no later than the end of January right across the country. 

Pill testing - just do it. I've zero interest, never done any illegal drugs whatsoever but reality is it's happening, attempts to stop it have failed, so may as well minimise the harm so far as possible. That doesn't mean I support legalising drugs though - there's a difference between accepting something as inevitable to some extent versus giving up altogether. All possible efforts should still be made to break the supply chain because it ruins lives oh yes it does.

Sex work - amazing there's still an issue with legalising it in some parts of the country. Just do it but keep criminals away from owning brothels and don't put them next to primary schools and so on. No reason they shouldn't advertise what they are though just do it sensibly.

Abortion - I'm in the pro choice camp firmly.

So I wouldn't win too many supporters from the morally conservative camp but I'll defend their right to express their views in a peaceful manner. Emphasis there on the word "peaceful" which they usually are.

As for the current situation - set the crackers off but the event should have been used to raise money for the families of actual victims (lives lost) of the fires. Ask everyone to donate $5 as a minimum.


----------



## macca (31 December 2019)

Having read a few articles about 110kg "females" playing AFL and other sports it would seem that if those identifying as female choose to contest olympic events then those actually born female can forget about training for the Olympics.

Various places now allow the option of changing ones legal sex simply by filling in a form, I am surprised that the feminists have allowed this to happen as it will quickly spoil many of their gains.

If we use tennis as an example, even though they only play 60% of the games that men do they are now playing for the same prize money as men. Equality at last or is it preferable treatment at last (60% effort, 100% money)  but anyway, imagine if all the men outside the top 100 all change their sex to female and contest the ladies tournament.

The feminists would be in an uproar wouldn't they ?


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

wayneL said:


> Court's statement was regarding biological males playing against biological females being unfair, was it not (haven't really been paying that much attention so correct me if I'm wrong)?
> 
> I would have thought that that was a matter of scientific fact rather than any ancient belief. Absolutely fair comment and nothing to do with bullying whatsoever.



It wasn't long ago, that women would have been banned for a long time, for high  testosterone levels.
Funny how everything that was black and white, now becomes shades of grey.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

macca said:


> Having read a few articles about 110kg "females" playing AFL and other sports it would seem that if those identifying as female choose to contest olympic events then those actually born female can forget about training for the Olympics.
> 
> Various places now allow the option of changing ones legal sex simply by filling in a form, I am surprised that the feminists have allowed this to happen as it will quickly spoil many of their gains.
> 
> ...




Apparently not Rob reckons, the GOD MADE US THAT WAY, doesn't cut it.
Just another brain fart in my opinion, but having said that I would go along with it, because if you can't cut it on the men's tour play the trans card. lol
Having said that, Rob will have a ripper of a reply, I'm losing sleep waiting for it.


----------



## cynic (8 January 2020)

Sharyl has some interesting insights into, amongst other things, the origins of the phrase "fake news":


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2020)

I haven't heard much of what Barnaby Joyce has to say, but this article is pretty good, makes a lot of sense.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...rusade-against-fake-news-20200213-p540lk.html
From the article:
The former Nationals leader said Facebook, Google and other online platforms should be required to have reporters in the federal parliamentary press gallery and in regional areas, and produce their own content. If they didn't, they should face a significant levy which would be used to fund public interest journalism.

"If they're collecting money from the Australian economy, they have a responsibility back to the Australian political process," Mr Joyce told _The Sun-Herald_ and _The Sunday Age.
"I think the first thing is a licensing provision that they have to abide by. If you're going to have Australian political content ... then you've got to have a presence in the gallery, and you've got to have capacity to put some logic into an opinion that you're responsible for putting out there.

"You have to have some counter-balance for the absolute crap that you're making money out of that's on your site. We're the cheapest actors of any soap opera in the world, us politicians - just ask Sky [News].
_


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2020)

I must add, I haven't seen sky news, so I don't know if their content is crap, that is Barnaby's take on it.


----------



## Knobby22 (16 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I must add, I haven't seen sky news, so I don't know if their content is crap, that is Barnaby's take on it.



Type it in. They are an embarrassment. Can't find out much about the virus as they are scared of annoying the Chinese.
Little decent business news because they want to be onside.

And using the word "woke" on everyone they don't like. And watch out for the usual weekly anti ABC article every reporter has to have a turn writing (while most wish they could join), Lucky Speirs, he got out.


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Type it in. They are an embarrassment. Can't find out much about the virus as they are scared of annoying the Chinese.
> Little decent business news because they want to be onside.
> 
> And using the word "woke" on everyone they don't like. And watch out for the usual weekly anti ABC article every reporter has to have a turn writing (while most wish they could join), Lucky Speirs, he got out.



Like I've said before we don't watch the news or current affairs programmes, they became just media personality blogs about 8-10 years ago, interestingly enough my 34 year old daughter was saying she doesn't watch anymore either.
Which I find interesting because, I thought young people today, were right into the chit chat make an opinion format.
Maybe times are changing, I think there is a misstep happening, because the media people are paid so much money they have lost touch.
Just my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

Interesting today, there was an article about the firefighter, who told the P.M to go and get F#^% on National television, getting sacked.
From what I read, he appeared on that ridiculous 'Project' programme, saying he was sacked for his rant.


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting today, there was an article about the firefighter, who told the P.M to go and get F#^% on National television, getting sacked.
> From what I read, he appeared on that ridiculous 'Project' programme, saying he was sacked for his rant.



I'm not sure whether he was sacked because of his rant, I guess to support it would seem to implicitly support the leftist cancel culture.

That said, it was incredibly stupid to have said that and not expect some sort of consequences.

I support his right to have said it, but also support the right of are those two object. And let the cards for where they will.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 February 2020)

Was he or wasn't he?
Depends upon the news source.
Check out SBS for the truth. Smell the PM in this. Wish he would concentrate on running the country.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

wayneL said:


> I'm not sure whether he was sacked because of his rant, I guess to support it would seem to implicitly support the leftist cancel culture.
> 
> That said, it was incredibly stupid to have said that and not expect some sort of consequences.
> 
> I support his right to have said it, but also support the right of are those two object. And let the cards for where they will.



Yes I agree, a bit funny how the 'Project' backed him, yet crucified Israel Folau for saying what he did, I guess the media is flexible.
Apparently Israel's thoughts didn't align with RA's or it sponsors, so it was o.k to sack him and never let him work again.
I suppose the firefighters thoughts didn't align with the fire department and its sponsors, but it isn't o.k to sack him, just a thought.
I have since read the fire department didn't sack him, so someone must have been attention seeking, he was on T.V apparently.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Was he or wasn't he?
> Depends upon the news source.
> Check out SBS for the truth. Smell the PM in this. Wish he would concentrate on running the country.



Did the P.M give him a lift to the T.V studio, or something.
Might as well blame him, he is responsible for everything else that happens.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Did the P.M give him a lift to the T.V studio, or something.[emoji23]



Just believe what you read like a good boy.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Just believe what you read like a good boy.



I thought it was on the 'Project' that is on T.V isn't it?


----------



## Knobby22 (17 February 2020)

Read the SBS report.
It appears there has been a sudden rehiring.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Read the SBS report.
> It appears there has been a sudden rehiring.



I never said anything about the veracity of his sacking, I actually found the contrast of the 'Projects' response to his sacking a bit hypocritical, re read my posts I actually agreed with Wayne that he should be allowed to say what he thinks.
As for attention seeking, the media is always out for that, a shame they can't be consistent IMO.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I never said anything about the veracity of his sacking, I actually found the contrast of the 'Projects' response to his sacking a bit hypocritical, re read my posts I actually agreed with Wayne that he should be allowed to say what he thinks.



Yes, but he was sacked, but now he never was sacked.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, but he was sacked, but now he never was sacked.



Yes and Folau was sacked and if R.A and the media had its way, he still would be, for doing no worse than the firefighter IMO.


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Just believe what you read like a good boy.



Oh, the irony


----------



## Knobby22 (17 February 2020)

I give up.


----------



## IFocus (17 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Yes and Folau was sacked and if R.A and the media had its way, he still would be, for doing no worse than the firefighter IMO.




Folau was making millions.
Folau targeted groups of people.
RA's sponsors said they were not happy.

Firefighter was a volunteer
Firefighter was exhausted after days on the fire front
Firefighter wasn't happy some one said he was doing what he wanted holding hoses watching houses burn while risking his life.
PM said its all good and he understood sentiment.

Spot the difference.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

IFocus said:


> Folau was making millions.
> Folau targeted groups of people.
> RA's sponsors said they were not happy.
> 
> ...



I'm not being judgemental of either person.
You can call it what you like, I think both have their right to say what they feel, I don't think the media has the right to become moral judge, jury and executioner.
It isn't my business to spot the difference, that is obviously for people such as yourself.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2020)

I can understand firefighters who risk their lives being upset at a PM swanning off overseas while the country is burning and then saying that firefighters should not get compensation for spending weeks or months away fighting megafires when they signed up for a bit of weekend work or putting out the occasional grass fire in their communities.

Anyway, as the guy said, it's a bit hard to sack a volunteer and I don't blame him for sticking the finger up at the fire brigade organisation and the PM.


----------



## qldfrog (18 February 2020)

I supported Folau and even donated: i i consid his saying was pure BS as i am a non believer, but i defend the right for him to day it outaide his work place
I would not have agreed for him to say that, at the opening of a game after the anthem.
And the firey can say whatever he wants but non in uniform on the "workplace".i think it is clear cut even if inconvenient

Of course scomo who had no control on the RFS can be blamed while no one ever mention our own Labour state leader in Switzerland while our state was burning...and while she actually had a non symbolic role to play.
The same people who crucify scomo are the same ones who idolized the NZ  pm feeding her baby in the parliament
Family first but not if you are a bastard Australian liberal...
A few decades ago, i think Labour voters could see that, not anymore with the black and white approach
A pity


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I supported Folau and even donated: i i consid his saying was pure BS as i am a non believer, but i defend the right for him to day it outaide his work place
> I would not have agreed for him to say that, at the opening of a game after the anthem.
> And the firey can say whatever he wants but non in uniform on the "workplace".i think it is clear cut even if inconvenient
> 
> ...




OK, so are you criticising both SloMo and Anna, one of them or neither ?

The same criticism should apply to both imo.


----------



## moXJO (18 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> .
> The same people who crucify scomo are the same ones who idolized the NZ  pm feeding her baby in the parliament



Jacinda Arden is toast. Terrible leader who failed on every measure except her b.s. sjw persona. NZ is generally unforgiving when it comes to that type of thing.


----------



## wayneL (18 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Jacinda Arden is toast. Terrible leader who failed on every measure except her b.s. sjw persona. NZ is generally unforgiving when it comes to that type of thing.



She has always been an illegitimate PM and I hope Winston pays dearly for that particular indiscretion


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Jacinda Arden is toast. Terrible leader who failed on every measure except her b.s. sjw persona. NZ is generally unforgiving when it comes to that type of thing.




Yes well, Trudeau was toast as well as I recall.

I'm not really up with NZ potty licks, have the other side got a decent leader ?


----------



## qldfrog (18 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, so are you criticising both SloMo and Anna, one of them or neither ?
> 
> The same criticism should apply to both imo.



Anna is in charge of fire services, scomo is not
So at the very least as much and probably more justified criticism of Anna first


----------



## basilio (14 May 2020)

The big story at the moment is the viral spread of the doco  Plandemic.
All we  need to see now is Trump re tweeting a supportive tweet and this could go anywhere.
It wouldn't  be a surprise would it.

* Plandemic: how the debunked movie by discredited researcher Judy Mikovits went viral *
Jason Wilson
Australia’s response to the coronavirus pandemic has been better than most but the ‘infodemic’ presents another challenge as millions watch conspiracy theory video online

The coronavirus emergency, and the pressure cooker of the lockdowns, have fused a number of conspiracy theories in the minds of believers. They have also drawn a number of conspiracy-minded movements closer together.

A snippet of an upcoming film, Plandemic, went viral with astonishing speed when it was released last week. In the process, it showed how false beliefs generated within the anti-vaxxer movement have become interwoven with familiar far-right conspiracy narratives.

It also demonstrated that by combining the efforts of grassroots believers and charismatic influencers, anti-vaxxers have become adept at producing and disseminating viral propaganda to mainstream audiences.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ow-debunked-conspiracy-theory-film-went-viral


----------



## basilio (27 June 2020)

So this is interesting....
There has been a growing campaign to make Facebook accountable for  false and outrageous claims made on Facebook. For example should people be able to claim George Floyd death was a fake and that he attended his own funereal.  (For real..)

Mark Zuckerberg has been reticent at changing Facebook policies even after many of his staff protested at Facebook allowing widespread lies and misinformation to proliferate.

One of the forces behind the campaign has been companies deciding to withdraw their advertising from Facebook until Mark reassess his position. Clearly this hits the bottom line.
*
So today the big news as that Unilever  the giant international consumer good manufacturer, decided to join the boycott. 
*

*Facebook to tag ‘harmful’ posts as boycott widens*

Facebook has said it will start to label potentially harmful posts that it leaves up because of their news value.
The more hands-on approach comes as the social media firm is under pressure to improve how it moderates the content on its platform, including posts by US President Donald Trump. 
More than 90 advertisers have joined a boycott of the site.
Consumer goods giant Unilever on Friday added its name to the list, citing a "polarized election period" in the US.


https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...ended-his-own-funeral-are-false-idUSKBN23H2IK


----------



## bellenuit (27 June 2020)

basilio said:


> *So today the big news as that Unilever the giant international consumer good manufacturer, decided to join the boycott.
> *
> *Facebook to tag ‘harmful’ posts as boycott widens*




Dow fell 2.8% overnight, NASDAQ 2.6, but Facebook a whopping 8.3%. The bottom line counts.


----------



## wayneL (27 June 2020)

Faceache has been treading the raggedy line between platform and publisher for ages. If they get too censorious, and they are already, then I can see it's demise. I have already cancelled my account.

Although it was handy for keeping in touch with colleagues, it no longer provides any benefit to my business.

Same with Tw@tter and many are hyping Parler as a free speech alternative.

I stay on Tw@tter purely for fintwit, otherwise I'd be out of that too.


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2020)

The moment they start censoring I think they are classed as publishers or something and can be sued. Don't quote me on that, but it was along those lines. There is some kind of line anyway.


----------



## macca (27 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> The moment they start censoring I think they are classed as publishers or something and can be sued. Don't quote me on that, but it was along those lines. There is some kind of line anyway.




About time someone stood up to them, amazing how they lose stories that don't suit their political bias, just like all other media who are liable, so should they be


----------



## Knobby22 (27 June 2020)

Publishing a link to the truth is not censoring though.

Many people have  set it up so that there is no negative feedback.like in physics this pushes them to the right or left.

Lies and exaggerations  are promulgated and if anyone points out inconsistencies  they will be ignored. Left or right.

News services are being ignored.

The government around the world are aware of this and are very worried. I am very worried.

At least ASF doesn't work like this.


----------



## qldfrog (27 June 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Publishing a link to the truth is not censoring though.
> 
> Many people have  set it up so that there is no negative feedback.like in physics this pushes them to the right or left.
> 
> ...



Well for ASF, i ignore the feedback from a few posters...
But your point is right, if you only listen to one side, you can not expect building a fair opinion, we all agree.notice i i e building, not having or parroting


----------



## basilio (27 June 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Publishing a link to the truth is not censoring though.




The "Truth " Knobby ?  Your truth ? , my truth ?  The truth as spoken by the Son of God (in the Black House ) which  is faithfully followed by multi million  followers.

The truth of White Supremacy ? That our Western Civilization is being threatened by the swarming dark  heathen/Islamic  masses.

The truth of Fake science that is spooking everyone with tales of Global Warming which are just fantasies of  easily spooked, gullibile lefties who don't understand the way the world works.

The Truth of anti-vaccinators who KNOW that "Medical science" is destroying the lives of our children with their deadly vaccines.

The Truth of those who KNOW that children were never killed in those school shootings, that George Floyd was never slowly killed in public but in fact saw his own funeral. That all thse mass shootings are done by actors and the Deep State.

We live in a post-truth world.  The determined denial of reality, the trashing of evidence, the creation and promotion of deliberate false narratives without consequence is well and truly alive. 

As the Son of God so  aptly prophesied. 
"I can shoot someone in broad daylight on 5th Avenue and  and not lose voters"


----------



## basilio (27 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> if you only listen to one side, you can not expect building a fair opinion,




The trouble with that view qldfrog is that some things have a singular answer. And building a "fair opinion" is meaningless if it ignores basic realities.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 June 2020)

We are not in a post fact world Bas. 
The truth is still out there.

The young are relatively immune. 
That is my hope Bas. As long as they engage.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 June 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> We are not in a post fact world Bas.
> The truth is still out there.



The truth is out there but someone could pick any random news item and then spend the next week getting to the bottom of what's true and what's not.

In practice very few will know what's true and what's not unless they're either working in a directly relevant field or have a strong personal interest in the subject. For the rest, well, who has the time to really delve into whether the ABC's funding is being cut or whether the fire brigade needs more helicopters or whatever?

Even with really trivial things, celebrities and so on, it's not hard to find widespread misunderstanding. For example, just pick any band that's had a member leave or die but the remaining members carried on with or without a replacement. Now go on YouTube and find their most recent music. Now read the comments from all the people complaining that they left the departed or dead member out of the video. Never mind that they left the band or died a decade ago.

Now go and find really old videos of the same band and read the comments from people claiming they must have had surgery because they look so young. Well the video was filmed in 1993 after all so yeah, they were younger back then than they are now that's true. Plenty of people can't work that bit out though, they don't grasp that something being filmed in 1993 means it actually is 27 years old and that everyone in it is 27 years younger than they are now. Oddly enough the music sounds quite dated now too. Funny that.

That's a really trivial example that should be easy for someone to get right. If someone knows enough about the band to know who's in it then how did they miss the bit that one of them left or died years ago? A trivial example but should be easy to get right.

Now if the average person can't work out who's in a band, a subject which is easily understood with a brief bit of research and where it's unlikely that anyone's going to say something untrue, well they've got no chance of verifying anything far more serious such as physics or economics where the subject itself is difficult to grasp and there's a deliberate attempt to mislead. 

The truth is out there, I'm not denying that, just suggesting that most people won't seek to find it on most subjects and that even with really trivial examples, eg the band example, there's often ignorance in practice.


----------



## qldfrog (28 June 2020)

Jonathan Pie, one of my sources of opinions..probably a fox news stooge  @bellenuit , something @basilio should take into account.
I believe it is relevant as per fake news link and left behaviour
If you do not know him @Knobby22 , i highly recommend for a reasonable leftist  comedy
Note: UK centric..


----------



## Knobby22 (28 June 2020)

Yes, love him.
He appears on the ABCs The Weekly as the UK correspondent sometimes.

He is very funny.

He takes it all on. The Royals and the Conservative Party aren't safe from him either.

Definitely not a Fox stooge repeating right wing mantra, way better than that.


----------



## qldfrog (28 June 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, love him.
> He appears on the ABCs The Weekly as the UK correspondent sometimes.
> 
> He is very funny.
> ...



I know.....very good, yet anti Trump ;-)
, was just replying to a post which i find nearly insulting accusing me of feeding on Fox news..would feel as insulted if saying i am a Guardian subscriber even if i have to guiltily admit i was reading the Guardian site daily as one of the few feeds i had access to behind the Chinese internet wall...says it all..


----------



## wayneL (28 June 2020)

basilio said:


> The "Truth " Knobby ?  Your truth ? , my truth ?  The truth as spoken by the Son of God (in the Black House ) which  is faithfully followed by multi million  followers.
> 
> The truth of White Supremacy ? That our Western Civilization is being threatened by the swarming dark  heathen/Islamic  masses.
> 
> ...



Well, at least we know which echo chamber you live in bas.

Because each of your points also have reasonable balancing counterpoints.

Professor Gad Saad has a forthcoming book on these and other idea pathogens which I'm really looking forward to. I would recommend.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I know.....very good, yet anti Trump ;-)
> , was just replying to a post which i find nearly insulting accusing me of feeding on Fox news..would feel as insulted if saying i am a Guardian subscriber even if i have to guiltily admit i was reading the Guardian site daily as one of the few feeds i had access to behind the Chinese internet wall...says it all..




Plenty of Republicans don't like Trump. It's not left wing to think Trump is a problem not a solution.

I think the point that person was trying to make with mentioning Fox is that it is the echo chamber making people so angry that they want to leave the western world. Or in the case of a lefty go in live in Sweden. The truth is that some have gone beyond Fox or the Guardian these days.

I personally think Australia has it pretty good and won't be leaving. Where else I can watch Jonathan Pie on the ABC with no adds what's not to like?


----------



## Knobby22 (28 June 2020)

Not talking about you personally Qldfrog as I know you have other reasons to move and I know that you are a free thinker.


----------



## rederob (28 June 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The truth is out there, I'm not denying that, just suggesting that most people won't seek to find it on most subjects and that even with really trivial examples, eg the band example, there's often ignorance in practice.



As @basilio points out, the issue is not about what we can easily find to be true, but with what is peddled as true from the outset despite there being nothing that supports it.
A separate issue is what people assume to be true for reasons which are not obvious, or are accepted "on faith."
However, the worst feature of societies is where obviously false claims are legitimised or distorted for gain.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2020)

So do we ban people for saying bullshite or teach people to think for themselves and not believe anything they read ?


----------



## rederob (28 June 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So do we ban people for saying bullshite or teach people to think for themselves and not believe anything they read ?



Just point to the evidence, ie. what makes their statement false, misleading or unintelligible.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2020)

rederob said:


> Just point to the evidence, ie. what makes their statement false, misleading or unintelligible.




Yes, I agree, whose job should it be to do this, the platform's management or other users ?


----------



## rederob (28 June 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, I agree, whose job should it be to do this, the platform's management or other users ?



Good forums are self moderating.
As we have seen here, however, no matter of "evidence" stops people saying things which have no reasoned basis.


----------



## qldfrog (28 June 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So do we ban people for saying bullshite or teach people to think for themselves and not believe anything they read ?



Very good point: biaised news and propaganda only work on dumb/uneducated people but you can not expect a majority to understand where global warming as described on the mainstream is bull****: to take a heavily heated..pun..subject
 you need to have a basic understanding of thermodynamic/entropy, size of athmosphere, weight of gases, then chemistry most people have no clue about co2, even less of radiation/ wavelength. So you turn to a reference.
I turn to reference when i do not know an area..and that reference sadly can be biaised, wrong or deliberately manipulative..not to mentioned areas where it is not black/white..can we still say that?
Ultimately fake news appear..


----------



## rederob (28 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Very good point: biaised news and propaganda only work on dumb/uneducated people but you can not expect a majority to understand where global warming as described on the mainstream is bull****: to take a heavily heated..pun..subject
> you need to have a basic understanding of thermodynamic/entropy, size of athmosphere, weight of gases, then chemistry most people have no clue about co2, even less of radiation/ wavelength. So you turn to a reference.
> I turn to reference when i do not know an area..and that reference sadly can be biaised, wrong or deliberately manipulative..not to mentioned areas where it is not black/white..can we still say that?
> Ultimately fake news appear..



You are commenting on a topic which is a matter of settled science.
You have never shown how your ideas have scientific merit.
It's a bit like when I pointed out your use of statistics was errant, and you continued to use incorrect data.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 June 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So do we ban people for saying bullshite or teach people to think for themselves and not believe anything they read ?



The former is impossible to implement in practice, it requires verifying billions of statements every day being made everywhere that humans inhabit, whereas the latter only requires educating each person once.


----------



## wayneL (28 June 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The former is impossible to implement in practice, it requires verifying billions of statements every day being made everywhere that humans inhabit, whereas the latter only requires educating each person once.



Free speech works.

Censorship breeds more extremism.


----------



## macca (28 June 2020)

wayneL said:


> Free speech works.
> 
> Censorship breeds more extremism.




The right to openly discuss all issues leads to a better society.

If we cannot have a discussion about racism with those that are effected by it, how are we to learn what it is that offends them.

If we cannot ask someone who is "different in any way from typical, average" how does your difference effect your every day life ? then we will never know.

To viciously attack anyone that raises the question simply causes resentment

A recent example is BLM, it was/is considered aggressive if a person expressed the belief that ALL lives matter. 

No where was the person disagreeing that BL did not matter, in fact they were actually supporting them as black or white, they hold that all life is important.

By attacking these sincere, caring people the BLM mobs actually alienate those who may have had sympathy for them, now they are offended and consider the mobs to be just that, mobs of stirrers


----------



## rederob (28 June 2020)

macca said:


> The right to openly discuss all issues leads to a better society.
> 
> If we cannot have a discussion about racism with those that are effected by it, how are we to learn what it is that offends them.
> 
> ...



This is a "*fake news*" thread!
But in response, the view that ALL lives matter can only be true when black lives also matter.  Currently, that does not seem to be the case.
Had a person been legitimately sympathetic and caring they would be advocating a more just society.


----------



## cynic (28 June 2020)

You may expose a zealot to truth, but you cannot make her(him it them, they zer etc.) think!


----------



## Knobby22 (28 June 2020)

cynic said:


> You may expose a zealot to truth, but you cannot make her(him it them, they zer etc.) think!




Luckily not everybody is a zealot.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 June 2020)

rederob said:


> But in response, the view that ALL lives matter can only be true when black lives also matter. Currently, that does not seem to be the case.




If the entire staff routinely turn up late for work, and the boss targets one individual in particular whilst ignoring the rest, then they'll quite likely find themselves in trouble for doing so on the grounds of discrimination.

In that example the underling response is reasonable, a manager has a reasonable right to expect that staff turn up to work on time, but the means of addressing it by targeting only one individual whilst ignoring the rest who are guilty of the same thing could certainly be seen as unreasonable and biased.

Same concept with everything. If the problem is people being late or it's racism or it's assault or whatever well then the problem is people being late, racism or assault. Singling out one perpetrator or victim whilst ignoring the rest just fuels unnecessary division in society and sends a very clear message that the target group is not equal to others thus warranting the special treatment.


----------



## moXJO (29 June 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Luckily not everybody is a zealot.



Ignoring it taking a foothold is just as bad.....


----------



## basilio (9 August 2020)

As the US election moves into gear Facebook is (actually) taking action to close down some of the fake Facebook sites set up by Russian interests.
Also includes the usual range of Conspiracy websites.

*Facebook removes troll network posing as Black Trump supporters*
The company says activity by the pro-Trump network originated in Romania

By  Kim Lyons   Aug 8, 2020, 1:42pm EDT

Facebook removed dozens of accounts it says were part of a troll farm pretending to be African-Americans in support of President Donald Trump and QAnon supporters, the company said, for violating its policies against coordinated inauthentic behavior.

According to a report on its July enforcement activity, Facebook removed 35 Facebook accounts, three pages and 88 Instagram accounts for “violating our policy against foreign interference, which is coordinated inauthentic behavior on behalf of a foreign entity.” Activity by the pro-Trump network originated in Romania, Facebook said, and posted on Instagram using hashtags such as “BlackPeopleVoteForTrump.” The pages had about 1,600 followers on Facebook, and about 7,200 people followed the Instagram accounts.

Facebook described the network in its report:

_The people behind this network used fake accounts — some of which had already been detected and disabled by our automated systems — to pose as Americans, amplify and comment on their own content, and manage Pages including some posing as President Trump fan Pages. This network posted about US domestic news and events, including the upcoming November election, the Trump campaign and support for the campaign by African Americans, conservative ideology, Christian beliefs, and Qanon. They also frequently reposted stories by American conservative news networks and the Trump campaign._

Facebook also removed several hundred fake accounts connected to conservative media organization Epoch Media Group, which it says spread conspiracy theories about the coronavirus. That network included 303 Facebook accounts, 181 pages, 44 Facebook groups and 31 Instagram accounts, which had a combined 2 million followers.

According to Facebook’s report, the fake accounts were connected to TruthMedia, a digital outlet it has banned from the platform. In addition to misinformation about the coronavirus and protests in the US, the accounts pushed various conspiracy theories.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/8/2...lack-trump-supporters-fake-accounts-instagram

All the sites Facebook removed and why,
https://about.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/July-2020-CIB-Report.pdf


----------



## moXJO (9 August 2020)

*The Trump administration’s top counterintelligence official warned Friday that China and Iran are trying to help Joe Biden defeat President Trump, but that Russia appears to be opposing the presumptive Democratic nominee.

National Counterintelligence and Security Center Director William Evanina issued the unusual assessment after Senate Democrats clamored for more awareness of foreign interventions.

Evanina warned there was “ongoing and potential activity by China, Russia, and Iran” ahead of voting.
*

*https://nypost.com/2020/08/07/us-counter-intel-chief-china-iran-favor-biden-russia-favors-trump/*


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (9 August 2020)

Trump adding his face to Mount Rushmore; that would be brilliant.






https://genesiustimes.com/trump-unveils-alteration-to-mount-rushmore-in-independence-day-rally/


----------



## IFocus (9 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> *The Trump administration’s top counterintelligence official warned Friday that China and Iran are trying to help Joe Biden defeat President Trump, but that Russia appears to be opposing the presumptive Democratic nominee.*
> 
> *National Counterintelligence and Security Center Director William Evanina issued the unusual assessment after Senate Democrats clamored for more awareness of foreign interventions.*
> 
> ...




So why are the Republicans blocking moneys to counter foreign interference in to the coming election?


----------



## moXJO (10 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> So why are the Republicans blocking moneys to counter foreign interference in to the coming election?



I need a link to counter...


----------



## dutchie (13 August 2020)

It's about time we got rid of perpetrators of fake news.

*Facebook Will Now Automatically Drone Strike People Who Post Fake News*

MENLO PARK, CA—Fake news has finally met its match in Mark Zuckerberg. The Facebook CEO announced Monday that his wildly successful social network will now “promptly and automatically” fly an MQ-1 Predator drone to the location of anyone who posts or shares an article that has been deemed “fake news,” and will obliterate the person with a Hellfire missile.


https://babylonbee.com/news


----------



## basilio (13 August 2020)

dutchie said:


> It's about time we got rid of perpetrators of fake news.
> 
> *Facebook Will Now Automatically Drone Strike People Who Post Fake News*
> 
> ...




In breaking news today there are reports of multiple missile strikes on the White House as Facebooks new policy initiatives obliterating fake news posters comes into effect.

Near simultaneous strikes have been reported on major Conservative and Right wing figures.


----------



## basilio (13 August 2020)

Thought this was classic.  National Presidential  Press Conference bringing the latest information on treating COVID 19.
Wait for the last Trump line of the clip.


----------



## dutchie (13 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Thought this was classic.  National Presidential  Press Conference bringing the latest information on treating COVID 19.
> Wait for the last Trump line of the clip.




What the Washington Post, fake news? No I can't believe it. (Just ask recent millionaire Nicholas S.)

Oh no! One Franklin Square was just hit by a drone strike!


----------



## wayneL (13 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Wait for the last Trump line of the clip.



Well bas, it is the objective truth.


----------



## IFocus (13 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> I need a link to counter...




Sorry Mo missed this one money is tied up in the latest bill for postal services and voting security etc which will be needed in November Republicans are opposing in the Senate


----------



## moXJO (13 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Sorry Mo missed this one



I'm kind of glad you missed it. I've been too lazy
 lately.


----------



## dutchie (27 August 2020)

CNN finally works out why it only has 15 viewers.

CNN: 'Our Ratings Are Only Tanking Because Trump Is Killing Off Viewers By The Millions'
August 26th, 2019




ATLANTA, GA—CNN host Brian Stelter blamed President Trump for the network's falling ratings Sunday, accusing the president of killing millions upon millions of people that otherwise might have tuned into CNN.

"If Trump weren't killing off most of America by the millions, we'd still have a pretty solid viewer base," Stelter bellowed at the three viewers watching _Reliable Sources_. "Airports, lobbies, waiting rooms, and gas station pumps are now playing CNN to absolutely no one, since Trump has killed them all."

A guest on Stelter's show suggested that Trump has killed more people than Hitler, Mao, and Stalin put together, and Stelter had to agree. "I'd probably put his death count at somewhere near 7.7 billion," he said after doing some simple math on one of those giant novelty calculators he keeps handy for such an occasion. "We can't overstate the damage this president has done to this once-great news station."

After the segment blaming Trump for the deaths of millions and CNN's subsequent decline, the station continued to air 24/7 Trump coverage, which mostly consisted of the hosts screaming at the sky.


----------



## dutchie (28 August 2020)

CNN has been there from the beginning, always running toward the important stories and absolutely never covering them up. We went through CNN's archives and dug up these 14 headlines they published while covering some of the most significant events of human history. They are truly a bastion of truth and honesty in journalism.








2348 BC: Watery But Mostly Peaceful Flood Destroys Earth

1025 BC: David Circumcises 200 Philistines In Mostly Painless Medical Procedure

33 AD: Mostly Peaceful Crowd Demands Jesus Be Crucified

79 AD: Fiery But Mostly Dormant Mount Vesuvius Erupts

1235 AD: Genghis Khan Attacks China In Mostly Pacifist Invasion

1347 AD: Black Death Peacefully Kills Millions, Trump To Blame

1453 AD: Constantinople Liberated By Religion Of Mostly Peace

1937 AD: Hindenburg Has Mostly Pleasant Flight

1945 AD: America Drops Two Mostly Peaceful Nuclear Bombs On Japan

1959 AD: Chinese Citizens Mostly Don't Starve To Death In Great Famine

1986 AD: USSR Reactor At Chernobyl Mostly Not Exploded

1997 AD: McDonald's Unveils Mostly Functional McFlurry Machine

2008 AD: Obama Runs Mostly Scandal-Free Administration

2017 AD: The Last Jedi Mostly Not A Terrible Movie

Great job, CNN!


----------



## basilio (31 August 2020)

Back to the reality of Fake News.  Check out how Q Anon has poisoned the international community, and Australia, with it's vicious, baseless, lies.

*Australian MP installed security cameras out of 'genuine fear' after posts by conspiracy theorist, court hears*
Anne Webster has been targeted by conspiracy theorist Karen Brewer and says Facebook should ‘be more responsive’ in removing similar posts

Federal MP Anne Webster installed security cameras at her home because she feared being physically attacked in her home town of Mildura after a conspiracy theorist accused her of being “a member of a secretive paedophile network” in a series of vicious social media posts.

The Guardian revealed on Saturday that Webster, along with her husband, Dr Phillip Webster, had launched defamation proceedings against New Zealand-based Australian conspiracy theorist Karen Brewer over a series of posts made on Facebook in April this year.

The posts, which were shared hundreds of times including on accounts associated with Mildura, accused the MP of being “a member of a secretive paedophile network” who had been “parachuted into parliament to protect a past generation of paedophiles”.

According to court documents, Brewer claimed, falsely and without any evidence, that Webster’s family had “engaged in incest” resulting in a genetic defect in her seven-year-old granddaughter, and that an organisation founded by the couple to help single mothers in Mildura access education was “a cover for the supply of young teenage mothers to a secretive paedophilia network”.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...er-attacks-by-conspiracy-theorist-court-hears


----------



## wayneL (31 August 2020)

A bit like the Covington kid being accused of racism eh bas?


----------



## basilio (31 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> A bit like the Covington kid being accused of racism eh bas?




Che ? What the xuck do you mean Wayne ?

Somewhere , somehow, someway you want to equivocate the gross repeated, maniacal, slanders made against Anne Webster (and many others)  with the Covington Kid?

Lets understand what is happening here Wayne in the big picture.

*Australian MP takes on conspiracy theorist in court but experts don't know where to begin with online battle*
A recent report found QAnon’s following was growing considerably in Australia with only the US, UK and Canada producing more conspiracy content

In May, Anne Webster, a first-term Nationals MP from Mildura in regional Victoria, quietly launched a defamation action in the federal court over a series of posts and videos about her on social media site Facebook.

According to a statement of claim seen by Guardian Australia, posts made about the federal MP in April claimed, without any factual basis, that she was “a member of a secretive pedophile network” who had been “parachuted into parliament to protect a past generation of pedophiles”.

Within weeks of the case being filed, Justice Michael Wheelahan made urgent orders for the defendant to remove the posts, labelling them “vile” and describing the legal action as “one of those exceptional cases” where the court could order the removal of the allegedly defamatory material before a trial.

“Given the potency of the allegations [in the] online posts, the scandal created may well reach quarters that cannot be known … this is one of those rare cases where damages may not be an adequate remedy,” Wheelahan said.

Webster’s case was filed against a woman named Karen Brewer, an Australian who the court believes may now live in New Zealand. Though she is basically unknown outside of the online communities in which she spends much of her time, Brewer – which may not be her real name – is one of Australia’s leading conspiracy agitators.

*Brewer’s personal Facebook page, which has thousands of followers, is a petri dish of beguiling theories and vicious abuse. In the steady stream of live videos and posts she feeds to her thousands of followers each day, Brewer rails against vaccinations, fluoride, and the cabal of Freemasons she believes controls Australia’s parliament, judiciary, media and bureaucracy as part of an extensive paedophile protection racket.*

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...s-dont-know-where-to-begin-with-online-battle


----------



## wayneL (31 August 2020)

Yes, bas.


----------



## basilio (31 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Yes, bas.




Understood.  That tells us where you stand.


----------



## moXJO (31 August 2020)

I think a whole group of mps got caught up when they allowed the paedophile protection orders to pass.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Understood.  That tells us where you stand.



Yes, I stand against all fake news.

You only stand against certain fake news.


----------



## basilio (1 September 2020)

wayneL said:


> Yes, I stand against all fake news.
> 
> You only stand against certain fake news.



More Wayne "alternative facts".
But then you just swallow and regurgitate the chief producer of alternative realities.

This report is for you .

*John Oliver on the RNC: 'Full-throated denial of objective reality'*
The Last Week Tonight host tears apart the Republican national convention’s triumphant vision of America after the shooting of Jacob Blake in Kenosha

...Oliver played a clip of Fox News host Tucker Carlson working to justify Rittenhouse’s lethal actions: “How shocked are we that 17-year-olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?”

“Well you don’t seem to be shocked, and that alone should actually be pretty xucking shocking,” Oliver responded. “*Because let’s be clear: a 17-year-old vigilante with a rifle cannot maintain order, because a 17-year-old vigilante with a rifle trying to maintain order is himself the definition of disorder.”
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...er-rnc-full-throated-denial-objective-reality*


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

When have I said anything about Blake or Rittenhouse? You are just attempting to create a strawman argument, baz.

My point is that you only commence your spittle flecked ranting in a select few cases, vis a vis in order to serve your rampant Trump derangement pathology.

It's pretty transparent and deathly boring.


----------



## satanoperca (1 September 2020)

Do we have any Fake News in Australia.

Love to hear some. I read Wayne was changing gender, TRUE OR FALSE.


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2020)

Two videos for george floyd.


----------



## basilio (1 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Che ? What the xuck do you mean Wayne ?
> 
> Somewhere , somehow, someway you want to equivocate the gross repeated, maniacal, slanders made against Anne Webster (and many others)  with the Covington Kid?
> 
> ...




I started this conversation on the poisonous lies QAnon spread about essential the  entire current political system.
*
The only exception is Donald Trump  personally, who they believe has been sent to the White House "to clear the stinking, fetid mess of pedophiles and satanists " currently in the Deep State.*

Their profile in Australia has been raised with the efforts by National Party member Anne Websters efforts to stop the repeated libellous rubbish QAnon is spreading through her community.

It turns out however that trying to use the legal system to stop this travesty is not as straightforward as one might think. They were the articles I referenced.

Wayne's contribution to the discussion was to attempt to tie Q Anons gross libel with the Covington case - as if somehow .. what ?

I don't know Wayne .

Is the story about Q Anon Fake News ? Is it all just a smear from the Fake News media trying to destroy the valiant people who truly understand what is happening today ?


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2020)

Jacob Blake. Probably best watching it on mute. This was the least opinionated commentary I could find.

Jacob had been arrested on an outstanding warrant. Was subdued on the ground but then resists arrest and gets up.


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2020)

The best breakdown of the Rittenhouse videos by a lawyer. Very detailed. Video of shooting starts about 10 minutes in.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

basilio said:


> I started this conversation on the poisonous lies QAnon spread about essential the  entire current political system.
> *
> The only exception is Donald Trump  personally, who they believe has been sent to the White House "to clear the stinking, fetid mess of pedophiles and satanists " currently in the Deep State.*
> 
> ...



I know nothing about Qanon, I don't follow that and am not a member of 4 or 8 Chan or whatever platforms are involved.

However I view fake news more in a general sense. If, and rightly so, fake news is called out on one side, it should be called out on the other.

My point with mentioning Sandmann, is that to this day that you have never called out the fake news that portrayed Sandmann as a racist that was hassling some poor native American, even when it was unequivocally proven to be fake news and an absolute travesty... His only "crime" seemingly to be wearing a red hat with a fairly innocuous phrase expressing a wish to improve his country. (But would be interested in hearing your take on that)

So you see the greater point here is that fake news does have an effect on the community. However it also seems that you are willing to ignore the effect on the community of some fake news but not the other.

This exposes you as a disingenuous hypocrite, a partisan, a propagandist, and other labels which I probably should not mention here.


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2020)

media can paint things anyway that they want. But things are not always as black and white.
I don't support taking guns to these events as its asking for trouble and escalates even more.

George took fentanyl, possibly to hide it from police.


> Fentanyl is about 100 times stronger than morphine and there is a small margin between the therapeutic dose and toxic dose. Therefore, it is very easy to overdose on the drug. Fentanyl acts very quickly inside the body and this fast action can cause you to stop breathing much quicker than other drugs and therefore has a much greater chance of overdose.




That does not excuse that the cop didn't check on him. But it adds another layer.


People blab sht on here as do the media. But these are often dangerous and highly emotion situations where people on both sides will make wrong decisions. In saying that there are also shtbags on both sides. But they deserve a minimum of facts either way.


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2020)

Portland shooting. This seemed like a straight out execution.



"We have some MAGA's here"

"This guy"

Bang


----------



## basilio (1 September 2020)

wayneL said:


> I know nothing about Qanon, I don't follow that and am not a member of 4 or 8 Chan or whatever platforms are involved.
> 
> However I view fake news more in a general sense. If, and rightly so, fake news is called out on one side, it should be called out on the other.
> 
> ...




Indeed Wayne. The conversation just gets more interesting doesn't it ?

I post an issue regarding the behaviour of a world wide group of people who essentially believe 

_there is a worldwide cabal of Satan-worshiping pedophiles who rule the world, essentially, and they control everything. They control politicians, and they control the media. They control Hollywood, and they cover up their existence, essentially. And they would have continued ruling the world, were it not for the election of President Donald Trump. Now, Donald Trump in this conspiracy theory knows all about this evil cabal's wrongdoing. But one of the reasons that Donald Trump was elected was to put an end to them, basically. And now we would be ignorant of this behind-the-scenes battle of Donald Trump and the U.S. military—that everyone backs him and the evil cabal—were it not for "Q." And what "Q" is is basically a poster on 4chan, who later moved to 8chan, who reveals details about this secret behind-the-scenes battle, and also secrets about what the cabal is doing and also the mass sort of upcoming arrest events through these posts.[32]_

It has become topical in Australia because of their targeting of National Member Anne Webster. 

*Your response to the issue story is to attack me.  *You say you know nothing about QAnon, appear to be disinterested in learning more (and then decline to  say anything about *what they are doing *).

But you are quite prepared to trash me for rising the issue because, somehow, I don't see all that Fake News you clearly refuse to acknowledge.


----------



## basilio (1 September 2020)

Updating  community information on QAnon. 
*QAnon*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

*QAnon*[a] (/kjuːəˈnɒn/) is a far-right conspiracy theory[2][3][4][5][6][7] alleging that a cabal of Satan-worshiping pedophiles running a global child sex-trafficking ring is plotting against President Donald Trump, who is battling them.[8] No part of the theory is based on fact.[9][10][11][12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Indeed Wayne. The conversation just gets more interesting doesn't it ?
> 
> I post an issue regarding the behaviour of a world wide group of people who essentially believe
> 
> ...



Which fake news do I refuse to acknowledge?

That in itself is fake news, bas.

Therefore, you are fake news.

How is it that my point in highlighting that there is fake news on both sides and that we should all be cognizant of that, a failure to acknowledge fake news?

Additionally, I am not attacking you, however I am highlighting that you are indulging in propaganda to further some bizarre political aim. the reason your agenda eludes me is, as I have stated before, none of us can actually vote in the United States federal elections.

Once more, your accusation that I am attacking you, contains an implication that you are not attacking me. This is probably your most amusing proposition yet, bas.

As pointed at before, your fakery is tiresome and and though amusing for me, is way too easy to expose.

However I'm an adult and am quite happy to withstand the same, even if I am kind of giggling about it all, especially your feigned (or perhaps not lol) indignation.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Updating  community information on QAnon.
> *QAnon*
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to navigation Jump to search
> ...



Ah okay... Was not aware of the paedophile angle... That actually makes the whole thing a little bit more interesting.

The Epstein, Gisella (or whatever the **** her name is), fiasco does make it all a little bit intriguing, bas.

I think implications of paedophilia even if tenuous, deserves some sort of investigation.

There are *few things I could think of that are more heinious and while I don't agree that unsubstantiated accusations should be leveled in public, for the protection of our children it's worth following legitimate leads.

What do you think?


----------



## basilio (1 September 2020)

wayneL said:


> Ah okay... Was not aware of the paedophile angle... That actually makes the whole thing a little bit more interesting.
> 
> The Epstein, Gisella (or whatever the **** her name is), fiasco does make it all a little bit intriguing, bas.
> 
> ...




I quoted the the accusations made by QAnon against Anne Webster in the original articles I posted.
They are appalling.
There is no evidence of any sort beyond the general view of QAnon that there is world wide band of pedophiles running the world and being protected by newly elected members (who don't share their view.)
It is just a vicious, disgusting smear.


----------



## basilio (1 September 2020)

wayneL said:


> How is it that my point in highlighting that there is fake news on both sides and that we should all be cognizant of that, a failure to acknowledge fake news?  1)
> 
> Additionally, I am not attacking you, however I am highlighting that you are indulging in propaganda to further some bizarre political aim.  2)



1) Because you refused to even acknowledge the issue of what is happening to Anne Webster.

2) Publicly stating that anything I say can be dismissed because  you believe I am a total propagandist seems to be a bit of a personal attack.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Australian MP takes on conspiracy theorist in court but experts don't know where to begin with online battle




A very disturbing article and quite right of you to point it out bas. 

And in case any zealots  think that this is a Leftist rant , shall we point out that Anne Webster is a Nationals MP.

Why this mob decided to pick on her who knows ?

What it does highlight though is the danger of Facebook and other social media allowing defamatory posts to be made against people and only withdrawing them after the damage is done. 

Webster is suing the poster when she should also be suing Facebook as a conspirator, her chances of getting anything out of Karen Brewer seem remote.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

basilio said:


> 1) Because you refused to even acknowledge the issue of what is happening to Anne Webster.
> 
> 2) Publicly stating that anything I say can be dismissed because  you believe I am a total propagandist seems to be a bit of a personal attack.



When did I refuse to acknowledge this bas?


----------



## basilio (1 September 2020)

wayneL said:


> When did I *refuse to acknowledge *this bas?




*On each and every post you subsequently wrote on this topic.*

Not once did you suggest or say the  slandering of QAnon towards Kate Webster was wrong.

You simply  managed to ignore the issue and attacked me as a propagandist who should be ignored.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

Oh, so every topic I don't comment about I refuse to acknowledge?

That is such an asinine comment, baz,  it doesn't even dignify a response.... utterly moronic.

This is why the left can't win an election


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2020)

[


SirRumpole said:


> Why this mob decided to pick on her who knows ?



I think its to do with the pedophile protection laws and who allowed them to be voted in(don't quote me on that though). There is a huge list of mps on the site listed. Both Labor and libs. This isn't directed at just one party.


----------



## basilio (1 September 2020)

wayneL said:


> Oh, so every topic I don't comment about I refuse to acknowledge?
> 
> That is such an asinine comment, baz,  it doesn't even dignify a response.... utterly moronic.
> 
> This is why the left can't win an election




Wayne, you had  many options after I posted the story about Q Anons libelous attack on National MP Anne Webster.

1) *Don't say anything.* As you rightfully point out no one has  to comment/respond to a post. I wasn't in any way asking for your thoughts. It certainly wasn't directed to you. It's always our decision on whether to respond to a post on ASF.

2)* Respond to the posts contents in some way.   *You might express concern.  Perhaps interest. Maybe question it further ? Lot's of options aren't there ?

3) *Sidetrack the discussion by bringing a completely unrelated topic*.  ie "whataboutitism.  So you chose to do that by throwing up the Covington Boy. Just throwing the usual dead cat on the discussion table

I then used the next couple of posts to reinforce the issue of how Q Anon  was poisoning the community with its baseless, disgusting lies about political leaders.

Your response was simply to attack me as a propagandist with a  political agenda who should be ignored. Cool..

You then professed ignorance about Q Anon  so I posted some easily found information on the conspiracy theories they construct and re stated the  accusations they made about Anne Webster.

Your response was quite muted. If anything (and I chose not to pursue this) you might have been saying "Lets investigate these accusations"

_I think implications of paedophilia even if tenuous, deserves some sort of investigation._

_There are *few things I could think of that are more heinious and while I don't agree that unsubstantiated accusations should be leveled in public, for the protection of our children it's worth following legitimate leads._

_What do you think?  Wayne L
_
*So  to  return to the topic ..*

_According to a statement of claim seen by Guardian Australia, posts made about the federal MP in April claimed, without any factual basis, that she was “a member of a secretive pedophile network” who had been “parachuted into parliament to protect a past generation of pedophiles”.

Within weeks of the case being filed, Justice Michael Wheelahan made urgent orders for the defendant to remove the posts, labelling them “vile” and describing the legal action as “one of those exceptional cases” where the court could order the removal of the allegedly defamatory material before a trial.

“Given the potency of the allegations [in the] online posts, the scandal created may well reach quarters that cannot be known … this is one of those rare cases where damages may not be an adequate remedy,” Wheelahan said.

...Though Brewer is not outwardly affiliated with QAnon, many of her beliefs line up with the conspiracy. Webster’s defamation claim, which also includes her husband and a not-for-profit women’s organisation called Zoe Support Australia that they founded together in Mildura, alleges the posts *falsely accused the couple of founding the women’s organisation to “access young children on behalf of a secretive pedophilia network”.*
_
*You didn't have to make any comments about this story Wayne. *But when you repeatedly did it was just to throw dead cats on the table and attempt to paint a purely factual news report of an upcoming  serious libel action as some propaganda exercise.

*And you chose to never suggest or say the  behavior of QAnon towards Kate Webster was unacceptable.  *

But then we  realised where you stood from yesterday evening when you threw Covington under the bus.

_

_


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)

Your post was too long and most likely to be as fallacious as your previous tries, so didn't read it. However for clarity, there is nothing in my posts that disputes the substance of the Qanon thing. Don't know enough about it.

But I do know enough about you to cut through your purpose here. Hence my comments, which I stand by 100%. To wit, you are super selective in your outrage, accurately reflecting the psychopathology I named above.

Gute nacht, Komrade.


----------



## basilio (2 September 2020)

*Russian agency created fake leftwing news outlet with fictional editors, Facebook says*

Internet Research Agency also hired real, unwitting freelance reporters in operation Facebook has removed

The Russian agency that interfered in the 2016 US election created a fake leftwing news publication, staffed it with fake editors with AI-generated photos and hired real freelance reporters as part of a fresh influence operation detected and removed by Facebook, the company said on Tuesday.

The latest operation by the Internet Research Agency (IRA) was still in its early stages when it was detected thanks to a tip from the FBI, according to Facebook’s head of security policy, Nathaniel Gleicher. The network had 13 accounts and two pages, with about 14,000 total followers.

....Major topics for the site included armed conflict, human rights abuses (especially by the US and UK), corruption, and the environment, as well as WikiLeaks, the coronavirus pandemic and the baseless QAnon conspiracy theory.
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ook-russia-internet-research-agency-fake-news


----------



## moXJO (2 September 2020)

basilio said:


> *Russian agency created fake leftwing news outlet with fictional editors, Facebook says*
> 
> Internet Research Agency also hired real, unwitting freelance reporters in operation Facebook has removed
> 
> ...



A few of you left leaning guys were  caught quoting from Russian sources. Multiple times. It wasn't that hard to tell either.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> A few of you left leaning guys were  caught quoting from Russian sources. Multiple times. It wasn't that hard to tell either.




If Bas was a Russian agent as you seem to imply , he wouldn't be quoting an article outing the Russians for underhand behaviour would he ?

Lets get a grip here and treat each story on their merits shall we ?

In other words , play the ball not the man.


----------



## moXJO (2 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If Bas was a Russian agent as you seem to imply , he wouldn't be quoting an article outing the Russians for underhand behaviour would he ?
> 
> Lets get a grip here and treat each story on their merits shall we ?
> 
> In other words , play the ball not the man.



People here were quoting Russian propaganda  news sites. Regularly.
How on earth did you come away as bas being a Russian agent from my post.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> People here were quoting Russian propaganda  news sites. Regularly.






> How on earth did you come away as bas being a Russian agent from my post.




Your above quote.

Playing your impressions of the poster rather than what they post.


----------



## moXJO (2 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Your above quote.
> 
> Playing your impressions of the poster rather than what they post.



People did quote from Russian news sources which I had to consistently point out. That's a fact.

Bas did quote from similar sources at the start but quickly adjusted when it was pointed out. He wasn't a consistent offender.

Its also in direct relation to what he posted. 

Thirdly I will happily point it out if you nubs are posting crap.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> Thirdly I will happily point it out if you nubs are posting crap.




Well you implied that he posted crap by who he was not what he posted. You made no comment on the actual article he posted, why not ?

Nub.


----------



## moXJO (2 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well you implied that he posted crap by who he was not what he posted. You made no comment on the actual article he posted, why not ?
> 
> Nub.



I did make a comment that posters here had already partaken in what the article laid out. That was over the past 5 years.

I implied crap posting which included you. I didn't just specify bas, hence "you nubs". Which suggests more then one


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> I did make a comment that posters here had already partaken in what the article laid out. That was over the past 5 years.
> 
> I implied crap posting which included you. I didn't just specify bas, hence "you nubs". Which suggests more then one




Once again, quote a post of mine that proves your point.


----------



## moXJO (2 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Once again, quote a post of mine that proves your point.



The ones just above.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2020)

No point in going on with it. Everything you disagree with is crap.

So be it.


----------



## moXJO (2 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> No point in going on with it. Everything you disagree with is crap.
> 
> So be it.



Unresearched media opinion masquerading as completely truthful is crap.

You saying I think bas is a Russian spy is crap.
If he was Russian then apparently he would be supporting Trump.


----------



## moXJO (2 September 2020)

basilio said:


> *Russian agency created fake leftwing news outlet with fictional editors, Facebook says*




Bas whats the significance of changing your avatar to saint Maximilian?


----------



## basilio (6 September 2020)

The narrative the Trump administration is running is that the US is being trashed by violent, destructive BLM riots.

However when an independent body checks these demonstrations what does it see ?

*Nearly all Black Lives Matter protests are peaceful despite Trump narrative, report finds*
In stark contrast to rightwing claims, 93% of demonstrations have involved no serious harm to people or property

The vast majority of the thousands of Black Lives Matter protests this summer have been peaceful, with more than 93% involving no serious harm to people or damage to property, according to a new report tracking political violence in the United States.

But the US government has taken a “heavy-handed approach” to the demonstrations, with authorities using force “more often than not” when they are present, the report found.

And there has been a troubling trend of violence and armed intimidation by individual actors, including dozens of car-ramming attacks targeting demonstrators across the country.




New York police hunt car that drove into BLM protesters in Times Square
Read more
The new data on protests and the US government’s response comes from the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data project (Acled), an organization that has long tracked political violence and unrest in regions around the world, together with Princeton University’s Bridging Divides Initiative.

Data assembled by Acled has been viewed as a reliable source of information on the death toll in Yemen, civilians killed by governments in Africa and political violence against women, among other conflicts. The organization launched a new “US crisis monitor” project this year, concerned that the US is “at heightened risk of political violence and instability going into the 2020 general election”.

*The results of the study present a stark contrast to claims made by the Trump administration, and widely circulated by Fox News and other rightwing media outlets, that the US is being overrun by violent leftwing protesters and “domestic terrorists”.*

“There have been some violent demonstrations, and those tend to get a lot of media coverage,” Dr Roudabeh Kishi, Acled’s director of research & innovation, told the Guardian. “But if you were to look at all the demonstrations happening, it’s overwhelmingly peaceful.”

Between late May and the end of the August, Acled and Princeton researchers documented 7,750 demonstrations associated with the Black Lives Matter movement in more than 2,000 different locations across the United States, as well as more than 1,000 protests related to Covid-19. About a third of the Covid-19 protests were linked to schools reopening, the report found, all of them peaceful protests. There were also at least 70 documented protests over Covid-19 involving healthcare workers, and at least 37 demonstrations focused on the eviction crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...peaceful-despite-trump-narrative-report-finds


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2020)

basilio said:


> The narrative the Trump administration is running is that the US is being trashed by violent, destructive BLM riots.
> 
> However when an independent body checks these demonstrations what does it see ?
> 
> ...



You remind me of this guy:


----------



## basilio (6 September 2020)

Protesters demanding justice for Breonna Taylor are confronted by far-right activists and self-described militia members during their march to Churchill Downs earlier Saturday. (at the Kentucky Derby)


----------



## basilio (6 September 2020)

*Background on Breonna Taylor death from a police raid.*

*Short story.* Taylor, a 26-year-old emergency room technician, was struck by eight police bullets in March as officers attempted to serve a no-knock warrant on her home during a narcotics investigation. Her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, fired his gun first, believing intruders were invading their home and striking an officer in the leg. Officers returned fire. No drugs were found in the home.

* Why the officers who shot and killed Breonna Taylor may never be arrested *
 Breonna Taylor 

A tangled legal doctrine in Kentucky means a kind of self-defense stalemate that leaves a lot of questions over what charges a prosecutor could bring against the officers
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...taylor-killing-officers-may-never-be-arrested


----------



## SirRumpole (6 September 2020)

basilio said:


> View attachment 108786
> 
> 
> Protesters demanding justice for Breonna Taylor are confronted by far-right activists and self-described militia members during their march to Churchill Downs earlier Saturday. (at the Kentucky Derby)




Scary stuff with all the firearms around.


----------



## basilio (15 September 2020)

Finland is recognised  as having the best education system in the  world. This is how they approach the issue of children understanding evidence and logic based news.


* How Finland starts its fight against fake news in primary schools *
Country on frontline of information war teaches everyone from school pupils to politicians how to spot slippery information

You can start when children are very young, said Kari Kivinen. In fact, you should: “Fairytales work well. Take the wily fox who always cheats the other animals with his sly words. That’s not a bad metaphor for a certain kind of politician, is it?” 

...In secondary schools, such as the state-run college in Helsinki where Kivinen is head teacher, multi-platform information literacy and strong critical thinking have become a core, cross-subject component of a national curriculum that was introduced in 2016.

In maths lessons, Kivinen’s pupils learn how easy it is to lie with statistics. In art, they see how an image’s meaning can be manipulated. In history, they analyse notable propaganda campaigns, while Finnish language teachers work with them on the many ways in which words can be used to confuse, mislead and deceive.

“The goal is active, responsible citizens and voters,” Kivinen said. “Thinking critically, factchecking, interpreting and evaluating all the information you receive, wherever it appears, is crucial. We’ve made it a core part of what we teach, across all subjects.”

...Fake news, Kivinen said, is not a great term, especially for children. Far more useful are three distinct categories: misinformation, or “mistakes”; disinformation, or “lies” and “hoaxes”, which are false and spread deliberately to deceive; and malinformation, or “gossip”, which may perhaps be correct but is intended to harm.

“Even quite young children can grasp this,” he said. “They love being detectives. If you also get them questioning real-life journalists and politicians about what matters to them, run mock debates and real school elections, ask them to write accurate and fake reports on them … democracy, and the threats to it, start to mean something.”

He wants his pupils to ask questions such as: who produced this information, and why? Where was it published? What does it _really_ say? Who is it aimed at? What is it based on? Is there evidence for it, or is this just someone’s opinion? Is it verifiable elsewhere?








						How Finland starts its fight against fake news in primary schools
					

Country on frontline of information war teaches everyone from school pupils to politicians how to spot slippery information




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ghoool (18 September 2020)

Like most people, there are relatively few things that I know enough about to be certain of the facts based on my own knowledge. Same for everyone - nobody's an actual expert on everything from medicine to engineering to fashion to endangered species.


----------



## ghoool (18 September 2020)

I practically stopped watching news. It looks like they tell us more fakes than real information. I just go through main details in the world in the morning and that’s it. I am from https://worldcams.tv/spain/benidorm/beach and i avoid all political news. It looks like they want to feed people what they want, and not the actual situation in the world. Do you agree?


----------



## cutz (19 September 2020)

ghoool said:


> I practically stopped watching news..... Do you agree?




Yeah mate, I get you.

I've blocked several mainstream news websites, only read ABC / ASF / and some others which may be considered a little lefty so won't mention.


----------



## basilio (27 September 2020)

Thoughtful article on the effect and extent of "brain washing" 2020 style.

*Kathrin has been 'brainwashed' by a nation before — now she's worried her friends are becoming 'converts'*








						Kathrin escaped 'brainwashing' in East Germany. Now she's seeing it in Sydney during COVID-19
					

After leaving Cold War Germany, Kathrin thought she'd left that paranoia behind. And then came a pandemic.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (28 September 2020)

The latest Cult of choice is Q Anon.  But who is behind Q Anon and what do they want from the millions of eager believers ?

Turns out one of the key figures in the shadows of Q Anon is a senior VP of Citibank who was running one of the key Q Anon websites.  He also has a strong interest in Data mIning.

*Citigroup Was Having a Helluva Bad Year – Now a Citi Senior VP Has Been Outed as the Man Behind a QAnon Conspiracy Website*




__





						Citigroup Was Having a Helluva Bad Year – Now a Citi Senior VP Has Been Outed as the Man Behind a QAnon Conspiracy Website
					

By Pam Martens and Russ Martens: September 12, 2020 ~  So far this year, the mega Wall Street bank, Citigroup, has lost 37 percent of its market value –



					wallstreetonparade.com
				











						If your friends or family have fallen for an internet conspiracy cult, here's what you should do | Van Badham
					

The zealotry of QAnon believers can be devastating for their loved ones. But action is possible




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (29 September 2020)

Good read.








						On Q Anon and Antisemitism
					

As autumn draws in and we head towards the various holidays of the harvest season, I have been reflecting on the reason why you wouldn’t be going to your weird uncle’s house for Thanksgiving even i…




					going-medieval.com


----------



## sptrawler (29 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Finland is recognised  as having the best education system in the  world. This is how they approach the issue of children understanding evidence and logic based news.
> 
> 
> * How Finland starts its fight against fake news in primary schools *
> ...



They should run it past teachers in Australia, it may well teach them something.😉
In Australia, everyone is an expert on everything they read in the media, they will even argue black and blue with people who are expert in a subject "because it was said in the media".


----------



## satanoperca (29 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> In Australia, everyone is an expert on everything they read in the media, they will even argue black and blue with people who are experts in a subject "because it was said in the media".




Every now and then, you find a comment on this forum that resonates, THIS IS ONE.

I can extend it a little further, application in any technical field. I have 3 years experience, I am an expert. I hear this time and time again when trying to employee people where I require high technical expertise in a very narrow area of technology.

My response is always the same, f--kme you must be an expert or just f---king brilliant, 3 years, did you learn it on youtube. Hence why I generally only employ those over 35, better chance they have more than google or youtube experience.


----------



## dutchie (30 September 2020)

CNN Pre-Debate Poll Shows Biden Clearly Won Debate
September 29th, 2020





39Shares
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U.S.—In a highly accurate and scientific CNN poll taken pre-debate, presidential candidate Joe Biden has had a clear win over incumbent President Donald Trump, with 98% saying Biden won the debate tonight and only 2% saying Trump won.

“Biden just dominated Trump with his very non-senile performance,” said pundit Jacob Ingram. “Or at least that’s what everyone knows is going to happen.”
The poll sampled smart people who are also attractive and cool, and it’s very clear that those people all think Biden is great and have already awarded him the win in tonight’s debate against the dumb and abrasive Trump.
“With such a clear and decisive win, there’s really no reason to even have the debate,” said Biden campaign staffer Lucas Mathis. “That would only distract from how great Biden is doing. And ruin his naps.”
The Trump campaign has denounced the poll as “fake news,” even though the poll was made using numbers and a computer which are common instruments of science.
It is unclear if the actual debate tonight could affect the poll results, but most experts expect that it will not.


----------



## basilio (30 September 2020)

Well done  Dutchie.. You quote a satirical site with made up stories *but managed to miss the real story of the Trumps media  team  trumping their great victory over the evil Biden empire ... right now.
*
Indeed a prime example  of Faster than Light events.


----------



## basilio (30 September 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Good read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*That* was really interesting.   And the academic women historian who researched and wrote it is an eyeopener as well.

https://going-medieval.com/about/


----------



## sptrawler (1 October 2020)

So who looked less stupid in the debate? I havent seen it so will take ASF learned members opinion as a guide.


----------



## IFocus (1 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> So who looked less stupid in the debate? I havent seen it so will take ASF learned members opinion as a guide.





It didn't actually get to that level the whole thing was a mess, total laughing stock.

The leader of the free world couldn't / wouldn't  debate an opponent.


----------



## sptrawler (1 October 2020)

IFocus said:


> It didn't actually get to that level the whole thing was a mess, total laughing stock.
> 
> The leader of the free world couldn't / wouldn't  debate an opponent.



Thats interesting, were any issues covered or was it just a slanging match?


----------



## basilio (9 October 2020)

More Fake News.  How to create your own xhit storm of support.

*Facebook removes hundreds of fake profiles tied to pro-Trump group*
Social network says accounts tied to Turning Point USA sought to influence conversations by flooding news articles with comments


Facebook has removed hundreds of fake profiles it has linked to the conservative group Turning Point USA for carrying out organized attacks on the site, including attempts to influence public conversations by flooding news articles with pro-Trump comments and misinformation.

The move was prompted by reporting last month in the Washington Post that found Turning Point Action, an affiliated pro-Trump group, was paying teenagers to post coordinated messages on the site, a violation of Facebook’s rules.




Read more
In comments on news articles, paid users cast doubt on mail-in ballots, praised Trump and spread misinformation about coronavirus. Facebook traced these profiles to an Arizona-based communications company called Rally Forge, which it says worked on behalf of Turning Point USA.

In a blogpost, Facebook said it had removed 276 fake accounts, including 200 Facebook accounts and 76 Instagram accounts.

Comments by the accounts addressed topics such as “Covid-19, criticism of the Democratic party and presidential candidate Joe Biden, and praise of President Trump and the Republican party”, Facebook said, adding that the efforts violated the platform’s policy against “coordinated inauthentic behavior”.








						Facebook removes hundreds of fake profiles tied to pro-Trump group
					

Social network says accounts tied to Turning Point USA sought to influence conversations by flooding news articles with comments




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## dutchie (9 October 2020)

Pity Facebook couldn't remove  *MSNBC, CNN, The New York Times, NPR, NBC, ABC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal.*


----------



## Joules MM1 (10 October 2020)

www.newsroyalcommission.com


----------



## Miss Hale (11 October 2020)

Joules MM1 said:


> www.newsroyalcommission.com





Rudd has finally lost the plot.  Has he forgotten the Murdoch press backed him for PM?


----------



## Joules MM1 (11 October 2020)

Miss Hale said:


> Rudd has finally lost the plot.  Has he forgotten the Murdoch press backed him for PM?




i see that point being made in several places, mostly by pro murdoch folks, except, that would have been a 
good question back then,  giving murdoch a free pass today, for the things he's doing today, for what he 
did then, at what point would those actions back then negate what he's practicing now ?

if he helped a little old lady across a busy bus lane back then
does it negate pushing people under a bus now ?


----------



## PZ99 (12 October 2020)

Miss Hale said:


> Rudd has finally lost the plot.  Has he forgotten the Murdoch press backed him for PM?



Two wrongs don't make a right.

Murdoch press shouldn't be backing any party - that's the whole point of this.


----------



## moXJO (12 October 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> Murdoch press shouldn't be backing any party - that's the whole point of this.



Doesn't Fairfax back one party?

Doesn't 95% of the media back Democrats?

Doesn't the social media companies lean a certain way?

I don't see what  a royal commission will actually achieve. Except for a witch-hunt on Murdoch.


----------



## PZ99 (12 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> Doesn't Fairfax back one party?
> 
> Doesn't 95% of the media back Democrats?
> 
> ...



I don't care who Fairfax backs.  Fairfax doesn't corrupt our political system and it doesn't own the vast majority of our print media like Murdoch does.

Who cares who backs the Democrats ? Not me. I'm talking about Australia.

A royal commission will achieve two things. It'll prove the Murdoch media is a corrupt organization that continually violates our media laws and it'll provide a strong case for restricting media ownership to an Australian owned company that pays Australian taxes on its profits instead of taking them out of the country.


----------



## dutchie (12 October 2020)

Miss Hale said:


> Rudd has finally lost the plot.  Has he forgotten the Murdoch press backed him for PM?



Rudd lost the plot a long, long, long time ago.


----------



## moXJO (12 October 2020)

PZ99 said:


> I don't care who Fairfax backs.  Fairfax doesn't corrupt our political system and it doesn't own the vast majority of our print media like Murdoch does.
> 
> Who cares who backs the Democrats ? Not me. I'm talking about Australia.
> 
> A royal commission will achieve two things. It'll prove the Murdoch media is a corrupt organization that continually violates our media laws and it'll provide a strong case for restricting media ownership to an Australian owned company that pays Australian taxes on its profits instead of taking them out of the country.



Sorry but papers like "the age" do exactly the same thing.
Social media is a more influential force that's open to abuse from China and Russia. Murdoch is yesterday's news. His influence was on the wane 5 years ago.


----------



## PZ99 (12 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> Sorry but papers like "the age" do exactly the same thing.
> Social media is a more influential force that's open to abuse from China and Russia. Murdoch is yesterday's news. His influence was on the wane 5 years ago.



If "the age" does the same thing it merely adds to my point about reforming the media laws.

Murdoch isn't yesterday's news. It's last years' news and last elections' news and many previous elections' news and it'll remain future elections' news for as long as it's allowed to troll our political system.

Social media I don't really care about. After all.. people who go online to complain about social media are doing the very thing they're complaining about


----------



## moXJO (12 October 2020)

PZ99 said:


> If "the age" does the same thing it merely adds to my point about reforming the media laws.
> 
> Murdoch isn't yesterday's news. It's last years' news and last elections' news and many previous elections' news and it'll remain future elections' news for as long as it's allowed to troll our political system.
> 
> Social media I don't really care about. After all.. people who go online to complain about social media are doing the very thing they're complaining about



Print media is gone. 
News.com gets more clicks being pro left. Its a lot more balanced then it was.
Social media is the great brainwasher these days. Rudd's got an axe to grind and too much time on his hands.

Call for this 20 years ago and it might have made a difference.


----------



## PZ99 (12 October 2020)

Agree social media is the great brainwasher but only to the brainwashed - otherwise this conversation wouldn't exist 

Not really concerned about what Rudd thinks... or Turnbull or Hanson for that matter - they were all unfairly targeted.

For me it's all about removing the corruption and keeping the profits where they belong.

20 years ago they were talking about ownership laws of radio and TV for much the same reasons.


----------



## moXJO (12 October 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Agree social media is the great brainwasher but only to the brainwashed - otherwise this conversation wouldn't exist
> 
> Not really concerned about what Rudd thinks... or Turnbull or Hanson for that matter - they were all unfairly targeted.
> 
> ...



Tech companies are the future Murdochs. Perhaps even more insidious. And they offshore profits like  nobodies business.
Future threats are a bigger threat then past has beens.

But sure, I don't mind if Murdoch gets bent over. Just seems like a waste of time apart from the comeuppance.


----------



## dutchie (21 October 2020)

I knew the fake news reporters at CNN were wankers but .....


*CNN Chief Legal Analyst Suspended by The New Yorker for Masturbating During Zoom Call*

MATT NAHAMOct 19th, 2020, 2:35 pm

82







CNN chief legal analyst and _New Yorker_ staff writer *Jeffrey Toobin* apparently exposed his penis—and then some—during an “election simulation” Zoom call last week related to his work for the latter news organization, resulting in a suspension.
VICE _Motherboard_ reported the news Monday afternoon, which included an apologetic statement from Toobin confirming that this, indeed, occurred.
“I made an embarrassingly stupid mistake, believing I was off-camera. I apologize to my wife, family, friends and co-workers,” Toobin said of last week’s incident. The _New Yorker_ said Toobin was suspended pending further investigation. VICE later updated the story to clarify that Toobin was masturbating.
Toobin managed to be caught with his pants down in view of _New Yorker_ and WNYC radio employees who participated in the Zoom call, he said, because he “believed [he] was not visible on Zoom.”
“I thought no one on the Zoom call could see me. I thought I had muted the Zoom video,” Toobin told VICE. The publication later went into more detail about what occurred, citing witness accounts:


> Both people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity in order to speak freely, noted that it was unclear how much each individual person on the call saw, but both of the people we spoke to said that they saw Toobin jerking off. The two sources described a juncture in the election simulation when there was a strategy session, and the Democrats and Republicans went into their respective break out rooms for about 10 minutes. At this point, they said, it seemed like Toobin was on a second video call. The sources said that when the groups returned from their break out rooms, Toobin lowered the camera. The people on the call said they could see Toobin touching his penis. Toobin then left the call. Moments later, he called back in, seemingly unaware of what his colleagues had been able to see, and the simulation continued.



It’s unclear which day last week this took place, but it was noticed that Toobin hasn’t tweeted since last Tuesday, Oct. 13.
Toobin reportedly appeared on CNN as recently as Saturday in his legal pundit role. Law&Crime reached out to two CNN representatives for comment on Toobin’s status with the network.
A CNN spokesperson told Law&Crime that Toobin has “asked for some time off while he deals with a personal issue, which we have granted.”
Toobin has worked as a legal analyst at CNN since 2002. He has been with _The_ _New Yorker_ for more than 25 years.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (21 October 2020)

dutchie said:


> I knew the fake news reporters at CNN were wankers but .....
> 
> CNN chief legal analyst and _New Yorker_ staff writer *Jeffrey Toobin* apparently exposed his penis—and then some—during an “election simulation” Zoom call last week related to his work for the latter news organization, resulting in a suspension.
> .... citing witness accounts:



things are getting out of hand!


----------



## basilio (22 October 2020)

I thought this was sweet.


----------



## dutchie (22 October 2020)

basilio said:


> I thought this was sweet.
> 
> View attachment 113535



A person with dimensia puts up a billboard about dementia - classic.


----------



## sptrawler (22 October 2020)

If they are going to have a Royal Commission into media, I think it should be on the media as a whole not just Murdoch, they all lean one way or another and it isn't just confined to politics.
Is there any wonder all media is going broke, they are all only trying to appeal to one sector of the community, it is about time they stopped trying to social engineer and got back to what the majority want balanced news.
The last Australian and U.K elections, showed how out of touch the media is, with the mainstream public. Jeez one would think they would have learnt something from that, but no they soldier on spewing forth the same dribble as they sink into bankruptcy. 😂


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> Print media is gone.
> News.com gets more clicks being pro left. Its a lot more balanced then it was.
> Social media is the great brainwasher these days. Rudd's got an axe to grind and too much time on his hands.



An observation about all media is that bias usually occurs not by lies but simply by omission.

Report accurately one side of the argument and say little if anything about the other side, thus creating the impression that the argument for or against something is overwhelming. It works, the general public and even some who really should know better do fall for it.

Another trick is writing something in a way that implies or even outright states that "everyone does this" or "everyone's fed up with that" even though this isn't even remotely true. It works because those who aren't doing it suddenly feel left out and think they too had better jump on board and start doing it. End result is it's effective marketing cleverly disguised as factual reporting which it most certainly isn't.

Outright lies do occur but not so common as omission.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 October 2020)

Its a bit long but there is a lot in it, well worth a careful read. It sends chills down my spine.
Something has to be done or the USA will fall and then we will follow. I have some ideas.









						Forget Russia's meddling. The biggest threat to the election could be the US itself
					

Security and propaganda experts say the focus of the US election on 3 November shouldn't just be on foreign actors, but on those spreading dangerous misinformation closer to home - and how bad actors are exploiting a volatile country.




					www.sbs.com.au


----------



## basilio (23 October 2020)

Speaking of bad actors spreading disinformation.

The only thing left for the Trump  Presidency to take to the electorate is an attack on Bidens  political morality and ethics. (Yes from the Trump administration itself..)  To that end the usual suspects have been  relentlessly flogging the story of the mysterious  laptop that turned up  with these suggestive emails seeming to implicate Biden in meetings with Ukraine officials.

On the other hand what do the Intelligence professionals have to say about this remarkable incident ?

*More than 50 former intel officials signed a public letter saying they believe the Hunter Biden story has 'all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation'*


Lauren Frias
Oct 20, 2020, 4:54 PM





	

		
			
		

		
	
Handout/DNCC/Getty ImagesHunter Biden addressing the virtual Democratic National Convention.

More than 50 former intelligence officials wrote a public letter Monday saying they were “deeply suspicious” that Russia could be involved with the dubious New York Post stories published recently about Joe Biden’s son Hunter.
In the letter, first reported by Politico, the former officials said they believed the information at the centre of the stories had “all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation.”
“It is high time that Russia stops interfering in our democracy,” the officials wrote.
Visit Business Insider’s homepage for more stories.

The FBI is investigating whether the emails were part of a foreign intelligence operation, and the Washington Post reported that Giuliani was targeted by Russian intelligence.CNN described the email probe as “part of a larger investigation into Russian disinformation that dates back to before the impeachment inquiry last fall.”

The former intel officials wrote they believe the arrival of the contents, which they dubbed a “laptop op,” to the tabloid was a cause for suspicion, “as the publication of the emails are clearly designed to discredit” the elder Biden.

“Such an operation would be consistent with some of the key methods Russia has used in its now multi-year operation to interfere in our democracy â€” the hacking (via cyber operations) and the dumping of accurate information or the distribution of inaccurate or misinformation,” they said.









						More than 50 former intel officials signed a public letter saying they believe the Hunter Biden story has 'all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation'
					

More than 50 former intelligence officials wrote a public letter Monday saying they were “deeply suspicious” that Russia could be involved with the dubious New York Post stories published recently about Joe Biden’s son Hunter. In the letter, first reported by Politico, the former officials said...




					www.businessinsider.com.au


----------



## basilio (23 October 2020)

The ABC has gone into depth with the Biden B/S story that has been assidiously promoted by the local Murdoch Press. 
Excellent reality check. This story is on par with pizzagate.

*Joe Biden and Hunter Biden have been accused of corruption, but there's good reason to be sceptical*









						How a dubious story about Joe Biden's son and his laptop went around the world
					

This week Australian media have been reporting about a laptop belonging to the son of US presidential candidate Joe Biden. But at the same time, serious questions are being raised about the story in America.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (29 October 2020)

Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkeman have been charged with sending lying  robocalls to voters to discourage them from voting. I posted this story in the  Rigging US election thread. 

What I wasn't aware of however was how prolific young Jacob (only 22...)  has been in the fields of Security fraud, spreading conspiracy theories,  and creating multiple smears of public officials . *Every one of them was a complete fabrication.

I raise this issue because many posters on ASF repeatedly raise  allegations  of this sort as some kind of hidden truth that is suppressed by the MSM and only comes to light on those special websites that will post any smear as along as it  suits a right wing political agenda. Perhaps if  some of these  posters read the entire Jacob Wohl story, checked out the references , you might reconsider your willingness to believe some of the stories you promote. *

The WIKIPEDIA post on Jacob is a revelation. You couldn't make it up.  I have only posted the Abstract. The remainder is still a work of dark art.

*Jacob Wohl* (born December 12, 1997) is an American far-right conspiracy theorist, fraudster, and Internet troll.[17] Wohl has been involved, along with conservative lobbyist and conspiracy theorist Jack Burkman, in multiple plots that attempted to frame public figures for fictitious sexual assaults, including in October 2018 against U.S. Special Counsel Robert Mueller, in April 2019 against 2020 Democratic presidential candidate Pete Buttigieg, and in April 2020 against White House Coronavirus Task Force member Anthony Fauci.[16][18][19]

 Wohl has created and promulgated other false or unfounded claims and conspiracy theories, mainly against Democratic Party politicians such as Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, Ilhan Omar, and Elizabeth Warren.[4][5][20][21][22] To aid his schemes, Wohl has created multiple fake private intelligence agencies, and has fabricated death threats and protests against himself.[23][24] 

On February 26, 2019, Twitter permanently banned him for violating its rules regarding creating and operating fake accounts.[25] Facebook and Instagram permanently banned Wohl on August 31, 2020, also for violating rules about creating deceptive accounts.[26][27] On October 1, 2020, Wohl and Burkman were each charged with four felonies related to voter intimidation by the Michigan Department of Justice, related to an August 2020 robocall campaign allegedly originated by Wohl and Burkman.[28][29][30]

Wohl founded several investment funds as a teenager. The National Futures Association (NFA) banned Wohl for life in 2017, after investigating multiple investor complaints against him and concluding that Wohl was guilty of refusing to cooperate with the NFA as required, misrepresenting investments, and misleading investors.[4][31][32] Arizona Corporation Commission (ACC) charged Wohl with 14 counts of securities fraud in the same year, and ordered him to pay $32,919 in restitution.[33][34][31] 

In August 2019, felony arrest warrants were issued in California for Wohl and his former business partner, Matthew Johnson, for illicit sale of securities that took place in July and August 2016.[1] Wohl pleaded not guilty to two felony charges of selling unregistered securities in February 2020. The settlement hearing that was originally scheduled for April 2020 was postponed due to the COVID-19 pandemic.[35]









						Jacob Wohl - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## basilio (29 October 2020)

Jack Burkeman was the other half of the robocall voter intimidation charge.
His history as a  serial fabricator of stories is also documented on Wiki.
Check it out and see how many of the "big" stories on the conspiracy threads were created by Jack.

*Jack Burkman*


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the lobbyist and conspiracy theorist. For the political candidate, see 2006 Washington House of Representatives election.

Jack Burkman





Jack Burkman in August 2020Born1965/1966 (age 54–55)[1]
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania[2]NationalityAmericanEducationUniversity of Pittsburgh (BA)
Georgetown University (MSFS, JD)OccupationConspiracy theorist, lobbyistKnown forFalse claims against political figures

*Jack Burkman* (born 1965 or 1966[1]) is an American conservative lobbyist and conspiracy theorist.[3][4][5] Burkman has been involved, along with far-right conspiracy theorist Jacob Wohl, in multiple plots that attempted to frame public figures for fictitious sexual assaults, including in October 2018 against U.S. Special Counsel Robert Mueller, in April 2019 against 2020 Democratic presidential candidate Pete Buttigieg, and in April 2020 against White House Coronavirus Task Force member Anthony Fauci.[6][7][8][9]
Burkman was also involved in spreading conspiracy theories about the 2016 murder of Seth Rich, and in 2017 Burkman was shot in the buttocks and thigh and hit with a car by a man he had hired to assist him in an independent attempt to solve Rich's murder.[10][11]

Burkman drew significant media attention in 2014 for organizing a protest against the Dallas Cowboys of the NFL after the team signed Michael Sam, an openly gay football player, to its practice squad.[12][13][14]

Burkman is the president of the lobbying firm J.M. Burkman & Associates *and the head of the conservative organization American Decency.[15][16] He is the host of the Behind the Curtain podcast and radio talk show.[4]**[17]*









						Jack Burkman - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## basilio (29 October 2020)

How the Jacob Wohl Saga Explains What’s Deranged About MAGA
					

The downside of Internet populism is that anyone, no matter how inept, can become a major part of the movement—especially if the F.B.I. gets involved.




					www.vanityfair.com


----------



## dutchie (31 October 2020)

CNN Criticizes President Trump For Not Taking Full Responsibility For World War II
October 25th, 2018




190.2kShares
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WASHINGTON, D.C.—In a special report Thursday, CNN's Jim Acosta took President Trump to task for failing to take any responsibility for causing World War II.

The president was criticized for not acknowledging that his rhetoric may have contributed to the conflict that spilled out across the globe in the late 1930s. While some historians acknowledge that there may have been other factors—like the Treaty of Versailles, the expansionist Japanese Empire, and a certain German fascist—a large swathe of liberal scholarship has now pinned the war squarely on Donald Trump.
"The president is quick to talk about the Germans' part in instigating the war, yet he still refuses to take any responsibility for inciting the violence that led to World War II," said Acosta. "It is obvious to everyone who watches our channel 24/7 that President Trump is the cause of every woe mankind has ever suffered, from famine and disease to war and death. And yet he stubbornly refuses to acknowledge this."
Acosta then excused himself for his customary afternoon practice of speaking encouraging words to himself in the mirror.
At publishing time, both Snopes and Politifact had rated CNN's claim that President Trump was the main cause behind the conflict that killed tens of millions 100% true.




You must become a premium subscriber or login to view or post comm


----------



## basilio (31 October 2020)

My God Dutchie you find and spread some of the worst xhit on the net.. 

We know that this is just Babble on Bee rubbish you post  (although you neglect to link to it) and it is supposed to be satirical. But honestly - it's as funny as a diarrheatic  dog. Just doesn't get close.

Honestly if it was satirical and funny, I would acknowledge it.


----------



## dutchie (1 November 2020)

basilio said:


> My God Dutchie you find and spread some of the worst xhit on the net..
> 
> We know that this is just Babble on Bee rubbish you post  (although you neglect to link to it) and it is supposed to be satirical. But honestly - it's as funny as a diarrheatic  dog. Just doesn't get close.
> 
> Honestly if it was satirical and funny, I would acknowledge it.




Are you feeling guilty or something about your own posts?

Your always trying to censor me.


----------



## wayneL (1 November 2020)

FWIW satire is used by both sides.

Love The Bee.


----------



## dutchie (13 November 2020)

*It is currently impossible to get the news.*

With *all* the Main Stream Media continually projecting fake news and with the social media outlets massive censoring there is nowhere to go.


----------



## IFocus (13 November 2020)

dutchie said:


> *It is currently impossible to get the news.*
> 
> With *all* the Main Stream Media continually projecting fake news and with the social media outlets massive censoring there is nowhere to go.




here you go Dutchie this is made for you and you can make some one money as well.


----------



## dutchie (15 November 2020)

dutchie said:


> *It is currently impossible to get the news.*
> 
> With *all* the Main Stream Media continually projecting fake news and with the social media outlets massive censoring there is nowhere to go.







THE MSM IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO OUR DEMOCRACY!


----------



## basilio (15 November 2020)

*Electoral Fraud !! Dead people voting !! Ruburb, ruburb B-S*

Unusual situation on Fox when Tucker Carlson apologized for repeating a Trump story about dead people voting. A WW 2 veteran apparently died in 2006 but VOTED in the Georgia election.  

Or so the story does. 

Turns out the actual person who  voted was his still living wife who voted under the name of* Mrs * James E Balcock Jnr - just like another 50 million women who are registered on electoral rolls with their husbands name. 

Interesting story and shows up the problems the Trump camp has in providing any  actual evidence of voter fraud.









						Tucker Carlson issues on-air apology over Georgia voter claims
					

Fox News host Tucker Carlson on Friday apologized to viewers after a local Georgia news outlet pointed out that he had made a false claim about a dead individual illegally voting in the state.




					thehill.com


----------



## basilio (16 November 2020)

Briebart Fake News report.  

*Trump Would Win Easily If Only Republican Votes Counted, New Chart Shows  




*


A new analysis by some guy on Twitter has found that Donald Trump would have been re-elected with an overwhelming majority if none of the votes for Joe Biden had been counted.

Using the hashtag #STOPTHECOUNT, the man said there was definitely something fishy going on. “Don’t you think it’s a little bit strange that as soon as you start including Democrat votes the election becomes close. But yet when you only include Republican votes it’s a Donald Trump landslide? That’s the story you’re not hearing from the mainstream media.

“You see the same thing over and over again in every state and every county. If you include only the legitimate votes – the ones from Republican voters – Trump wins easily. But yet what we’re being shown on CNN and the New York Times is different. This is voter fraud, clear and simple”.

He said he had factored in the different voting patterns of Democrats v Republican voters. “Even when you include and then discount mail-in votes from Democrat voters – it’s still a clear victory for Trump”.

He said the evidence was irrefutable. “You can see it right there in my chart. *The facts that I make up don’t lie”*.









						Trump Would Win Easily If Only Republican Votes Counted, New Chart Shows
					

“Isn't it a bit fishy that as soon as you start including Democrat votes the election becomes close?"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## PZ99 (16 November 2020)

I think a lot of Americans looked upon that hashtag as an auto-correct error and voted accordingly


----------



## dutchie (25 November 2020)

I am continually amazed at how many people have been sucked into the MSM conditioning to believe that Trump was a bad President and person, starting before he was even inaugurated. It lasted four and a bit years and they have been very successful.
No doubt the sucked in will say, oh but Trump was a bad man (orange LOL) before he was President, but these are the people conditioned the most.


----------



## satanoperca (25 November 2020)

dutchie said:


> I am continually amazed at how many people have been sucked into the MSM conditioning to believe that Trump was a bad President and person, starting before he was even inaugurated. It lasted four and a bit years and they have been very successful.
> No doubt the sucked in will say, oh but Trump was a bad man (orange LOL) before he was President, but these are the people conditioned the most.



Flip it mate, you are the one sucked in, you fell for it, hook line and sinker, but it makes sense being a graduate of Trump University


----------



## basilio (28 November 2020)

Ever wondered if the US aqctually made a successful manned landing on the  moon? Why do more and more people seriously the moon landings were an elaborate hoax ?  How did the hoax idea kick off ?

Excellent review of the whole moon hoax story. I suggest this issue under pins much of the Fake News scenarios today.









						One giant ... lie? Why so many people still think the moon landings were faked
					

It all started with a man called Bill Kaysing and his pamphlet about ‘America’s $30bn swindle’ ...




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2020)

basilio said:


> Ever wondered if the US aqctually made a successful manned landing on the  moon? Why do more and more people seriously the moon landings were an elaborate hoax ?  How did the hoax idea kick off ?
> 
> Excellent review of the whole moon hoax story. I suggest this issue under pins much of the Fake News scenarios today.
> 
> ...



Do you think, they don't have equipment, that can see the junk left on the moon?
Maybe the space station is a netflix programme?
Maybe satellite phone calls are just downloaded tapes?
I can see why the Guardian does well.


----------



## basilio (5 December 2020)

Who would have thunk it ?  That anyone born 150  plus years ago could  add something valuable to the wonderful world of 2020. 
John Stuart Mill has something  very relevant to say about the challenges of the net.









						150 Years Ago, a Philosopher Showed Why It’s Pointless to Start Arguments on the Internet
					

Don’t feed the trolls.




					getpocket.com


----------



## basilio (6 December 2020)

And in the special world of Donald Trump and his true believers he has never lost an election. 
Interestingly enough the vast majority of the Republican Party still won't acknowledge that Biden won the election convincingly.

Shades on 1918 and the stab in the back.









						Donald Trump tells supporters he has 'never lost an election', in his first rally since losing the US election
					

Amid chants of "four more years" and "we love you", Mr Trump tells a crowd in Georgia, without evidence, he has "never lost an election", in his first political rally since losing the presidential election.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						Just 27 of 249 Republicans in Congress willing to say Trump lost, survey finds
					

Washington Post report finds Republican members resistant to acknowledging Joe Biden’s victory, while two congressmen claim Trump won




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (8 December 2020)

Came across this fascinating  analysis of an obscure 1950's  US movie "A Face in the Crowd".

The premise of the movie is how easily Amercians fall for hucksters and grifters.

_Though not a critical success in its own time, the 1957 film, written by Budd Schulberg and directed by Elia Kazan, has since been heralded as a masterpiece, praised by François Truffaut and preserved by the National Film Registry. The movie tells the story of Larry “Lonesome” Rhodes (Andy Griffith), a charismatic, populist entertainer with a dark side, who uses the new medium of television to rise to the pinnacle of American power. 
... Cinephiles and politicos alike saw Trump’s political career foretold in Schulberg and Kazan’s fable. Just a few months after Trump entered the race, the conservative writer Cal Thomas devoted an entire syndicated column to the resemblance between Griffith’s demagogue and candidate Trump. 

...There’s no denying that A Face in the Crowd captures aspects of Trump’s character—Rhodes’s vulgarity, his volatile mixture of ego and insecurity, and his instinctive mastery of mass media are all eerily familiar. Yet the similarities go only so far. Like Trump’s, Rhodes’s populism is a means to an end, but at least he comes by it more credibly, having walked the dusty byways of northeastern Arkansas and spent long nights in its drunk tanks.

Schulberg and Kazan’s real achievement wasn’t anticipating Trump. It was appreciating, at the dawn of the television era, how susceptible the American public would be to his pitch. As Trump’s first term comes to a close, A Face in the Crowd is worth revisiting—less for what it reveals about the president than for what it says about the rest of us._









						Why Americans Fall for Grifters
					

A warning from a 1957 film




					www.theatlantic.com
				








__





						CAL THOMAS: Donald Trump is ‘Lonesome Rhodes’
					

Rarely and perhaps not in modern times has a presidential campaign more resembled the classic 1957 film, “A Face in the Crowd.” Written by Budd Schulberg and starring Andy Griffith, Patricia Neal and Walter Matthau, the storyline follows an Arkansas hayseed named Larry “Lonesome” Rhodes...




					www.washingtontimes.com


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

Bas do you think you might have become obsessed with a certain topic?


----------



## basilio (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Bas do you think you might have become obsessed with a certain topic?




The topic that dare not speak its name ? Perhaps a bit too touchy for ASF ?

Possibly  embarrassing for the many people who have carried the banner high and trumpeted long and loud as to the virtues of this bold new US direction ?

I appreciate the ice is thin - in many senses. How long can 70 million armed, angry people stay indoors when their Great Leader is repeatedly telling them their rightful election victory was stolen ? 

What would be the consequences on the US if this repeated messaging  undermines  trust in the democratic system itself ?

How long can the mass media and the FBI and CIA tiptoe around the issues of this systemic undermining of trust in the US voting systems ?

These issues have arisen in all history - including the US.  The above story from The Washington Times was written by a strongly conservative writer in 2015 when Trump was making his play for President. He used the excellent example of "The Face in the Crowd" movie to highlight how a skilled manipulator can make the crowd dance to his tune.  

That movie of course didn't just magically appear.  It was informed  by Senator Joe Macarthy and the giant commie conspiracy.
Stalin was only 4 years dead and the cult of Stalinism was still strong. WW2 was only 12 years old millions of Germans  still fervently believed in the magic of Hitler.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Bas do you think you might have become obsessed with a certain topic?



We are discussing extremism on another thread, it is a very broad subject and covers a lot obsessions. I guess with social media giving everyone a platform, it could tend to feed the paranoia that drives some people, it really can't be good for their health. IMO
Someone near and dear to me has started to decline mentally and her obsessions are coming more and more to the fore, it is IMO actually accelerating her mental decline.


----------



## basilio (8 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> We are discussing extremism on another thread, it is a very broad subject and covers a lot obsessions. I guess with social media giving everyone a platform, it could tend to feed the paranoia that drives some people, it really can't be good for their health. IMO
> Someone near and dear to me has started to decline mentally and her obsessions are coming more and more to the fore, it is IMO actually accelerating her mental decline.




Extremism, obsessions ? It is a very real challenge SP.  You may be referring to the many people who have now become inveigled in the QAnon conspiracies. I believe the spread of that series of beliefs is having a damaging effect on many people. It has also been one of the factors behind the resistance to taking effective quarantine actions over COVID and even denying it's existence.

The point about "obsessing" with Trump has made repeatedly.  And given Trump decisively lost the US election on Nov 4th  one could anticipate a reset of US views/behaviour post Trump. If Trump had acknowledged his loss and moved on that call would be fair.

*The trouble however, is that Donald is taking fake news to a new dimension with his repeated calls of the election being stolen, mass election fraud and so on. *That call has been echoed across his 70million wide vote base many of whom fervently believe "they were robbed" . I highlighted where this could go above.  And right now there are dozens of armed protesters screaming Stop the Steal outside the home of the Michigan Secretary of State.  This is not small potatoes.









						Jocelyn Benson: Armed protesters flock to Michigan official's home
					

The state's attorney general called the incident "disturbing behaviour masquerading as protest".



					www.bbc.com


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

basilio said:


> The topic that dare not speak its name ? Perhaps a bit too touchy for ASF ?
> 
> Possibly  embarrassing for the many people who have carried the banner high and trumpeted long and loud as to the virtues of this bold new US direction ?
> 
> ...



First off many of the high profile conservatives on Twitter have acknowledged the loss. Most have moved on to focus winning Georgia. Even fox and breitbart seemed to have moved on. The only one so far that hasn't seems to be you.

I've seen a lot of allegations but not enough evidence that has any chance of overturning the election. 

I still would have preferred Trump for another term. I never backed away from that, despite  bleatings from you and others. Mainly due to defense, world, and China directions. If you honestly think I would be embarrassed, because a bunch of clueless morons that hated Trump said so. Think again. It was never about the person. 

Democrats calling for mail ins then using an army of lawyers to influence state rules was going to be open to arguments of fraud. Ballot harvesting did happen. Other claims we saw in varying degrees but no where near what is being claimed. I just don't see the evidence to change an election. It was won before the election even took place. 

Democrats kept up the Russian bs for a full term. You really want to keep this going another four years?
I have never seen you push a balanced point. Never seen you acknowledge that you posted an article that was wrong. You just endlessly push stuff that reinforce your narrowing world view. And you are still doing it. You keep a lid on it for a few days and then start all over. Which then provokes a response from the other members.
And its stuff we have commented on a hundred times before. 

It makes the divide between left and right bigger. If you think you are changing people's opinions, think again.


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> We are discussing extremism on another thread, it is a very broad subject and covers a lot obsessions. I guess with social media giving everyone a platform, it could tend to feed the paranoia that drives some people, it really can't be good for their health. IMO
> Someone near and dear to me has started to decline mentally and her obsessions are coming more and more to the fore, it is IMO actually accelerating her mental decline.



Which thread?


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> I still would have preferred Trump for another term. I never backed away from that, despite  bleatings from you and others. Mainly due to defense, world, and China directions.



You obviously don't have friends or family in the US.

His mishandling of Covid, near 300,000 dead, "for something that will just disappear" his words is enough. Note : expect it to get to 1,000,000 before his wonderful vaccine is found.

He has not done anything to Make America great again, except divisiveness and help bring down Democracy.

While you attack Bas, for a narrow approach, you have not been able to bring one valid piece of evidence that your master keeps repeating, widespread voter fraud. SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE, or you are saying over 30 judicial cases have been thrown out as the judges are wrong and don't understand the law?

The reason we are in this mess is Chump, China will prevail.


----------



## dutchie (8 December 2020)

basilio said:


> Extremism, obsessions ? It is a very real challenge SP.  You may be referring to the many people who have now become inveigled in the QAnon conspiracies. I believe the spread of that series of beliefs is having a damaging effect on many people. It has also been one of the factors behind the resistance to taking effective quarantine actions over COVID and even denying it's existence.
> 
> The point about "obsessing" with Trump has made repeatedly.  And given Trump decisively lost the US election on Nov 4th  one could anticipate a reset of US views/behaviour post Trump. If Trump had acknowledged his loss and moved on that call would be fair.
> 
> ...




So Trump makes "Fake news" for 3 weeks is bad but MSM making "Fake news" for over 4 years is OK.
Interesting analysis of situation.


----------



## basilio (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> First off many of the high profile conservatives on Twitter have acknowledged the loss. Most have moved on to focus winning Georgia. Even fox and breitbart seemed to have moved on. The only one so far that hasn't seems to be you.
> 
> I've seen a lot of allegations but not enough evidence that has any chance of overturning the election.
> 
> ...




We certainly seem to be seeing different realities MoXjo  don't we ?

You have acknowledged that there is just no evidence of the sort of widespread fraud that could change the election results. And yet Trump insists*,  and repeatedly* *insists*, that there is fraud, that the election was stolen, that the reason he is losing is because the Republicans in charge of vote counting in  Georgia and Pennsylvania won't do as he says and refuse to certify the vote.

So I  offer a couple of thoughts

1) Does the fact that Donald Trump continue to make completely  baseless claims of election fraud and attempts to strong arm election officials to his side change anyone on ASF  views on his fitness to be a President?  Has he gone too far in this effort to undermine the electoral system ?

2) What is the ongoing impact of this behaviour on the millions of Trump supporters who still believe his every word ? Where does this take the US ?  

3) When will the Republicans stand up and also recognise that Trump lost the Presidency and that his efforts to undermine trust in the electoral system are just unacceptable and he has to go ?.

Mo you say I see only the most narrow POV.  If you check back you will find I posted and supported the efforts of the  conservative Republicians in Pennsylvania and Georgia and elsewhere  to ensure  firstly an honest ballot, then a proper counting of these ballots and finally their principled approach to defending these  critical processes. 

Finally.  If the situation was reversed. If a Democratic candidate/President  lost an election as decisively  as Trump has and then proceeded to destroy public confidence in the system on a set of totally unproven  fabrications what would be your response ?


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> You obviously don't have friends or family in the US.
> 
> His mishandling of Covid, near 300,000 dead, "for something that will just disappear" his words is enough. Note : expect it to get to 1,000,000 before his wonderful vaccine is found.
> 
> ...



I have friends and family in the US. My family was once asked by Cherokee Indians to attend a function. Travelled round the US. Its not for me, but I was impressed by the knowledge of those that specialised in various areas. Learnt a lot. So yes I do. And have talked to them and none of them were worried. Probably as much as they were here. And again what is the % rate of deaths? And why did you think dems celebrated in the millions in crowds after Biden won?
Nobody gave a sht. Oh and Trump has botched the covid response. 

Did you literally not read my post saying that "I don't see the evidence of enough fraud to change the election"?

The ballot harvesting happens before and is deemed a legal grey area. The dems had a better mail in strategy and plenty of groups with funding to see it through.


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

basilio said:


> We certainly seem to be seeing different realities MoXjo  don't we ?
> 
> You have acknowledged that there is just no evidence of the sort of widespread fraud that could change the election results. And yet Trump insists*,  and repeatedly* *insists*, that there is fraud, that the election was stolen, that the reason he is losing is because the Republicans in charge of vote counting in  Georgia and Pennsylvania won't do as he says and refuse to certify the vote.
> 
> ...



We have Georgia in play so keep the base engaged. Outrage is often the best motivator.

I think this is the first time we have ever had mail ins on this scale. So no wonder he is pissed.  Trump wins if the election was held normally. 

I'm expecting he will keep this up and attempt another run. But by then I think the base will have moved on to something else. I don't see him in a future win.

Democrats have in fact called into question the last four years of trumps presidency. Remember all those thousands of posts you have made. You won't see the right leaners doing the same on here. And I have in the past corrected fake news previously on here either side. Now its getting next to impossible to break the fake news apart.


----------



## Joe Blow (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> I have never seen you push a balanced point. Never seen you acknowledge that you posted an article that was wrong. You just endlessly push stuff that reinforce your narrowing world view. And you are still doing it. You keep a lid on it for a few days and then start all over. Which then provokes a response from the other members.
> And its stuff we have commented on a hundred times before.




This right here is the problem with political "discussion" in 2020. There are no shades of grey, there is no nuance, there is nothing but black or white, one tribe or the other. It is the political version of religious fundamentalism. No doubt, no questions, just dogma up to your eyeballs.

The proliferation of links to partisan websites does nothing to foster or encourage a real, constructive discussion or debate of the issues. All it does is further entrench the tribalism and the dogmatism and destroys any chance of a useful or productive discussion.

For this reason, I'm proposing a ban on linking to partisan websites in political threads. Too many on the far left and far right just link to absurdly partisan articles on other (mostly dubious) websites with no context, no explanation, and no commentary.

This has become profoundly annoying, not to mention destructive. If you have an opinion, or a view on a political topic, then mount your argument, in your own words. Don't just link to someone else's biased opinion. Tell others what *you* think.

For the avoidance of doubt, a "partisan website" is one that pushes only a far left or far right wing political agenda. There is no balance, or attempt at objectivity, just shameless political agenda pushing.

If you agree with this proposed ban, please either like this post or share your views in this thread. If you disagree, then post and explain why.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> We have Georgia in play so keep the base engaged. Outrage is often the best motivator.
> 
> I think this is the first time we have ever had mail ins on this scale. So no wonder he is pissed.  Trump wins if the election was held normally.




Maybe mailins were so high due to a virus killing nearly 3000 people a day. That is overwhelming their hospitals, but it will just go away.

It was not a normal election, a thing called COVID changed it, how hard is that to understand.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (8 December 2020)

Basically the posters (poster children) that drop their outrage don't seem to talk about stocks much, in my observation. As this is ASF which is short for Aussie Stock Forum, not Argumentative Simplistic Fanaticism, I tend to give it a miss. In fact, I only got to his thread because I had a look at _Latest Activity. _Gee, its boring.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Which thread?



'Freedom of speech and protest'. The extremists are IMO dictating what is acceptable and what isn't, which actually is exactly what is happening on all stages and public forums, unless one agrees with what the extremists decree is acceptable they are attacked.
It must be extremely difficult for comedians to write material these days.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

Joe Blow said:


> This right here is the problem with political "discussion" in 2020. There are no shades of grey, there is no nuance, there is nothing but black or white, one tribe or the other. It is the political version of religious fundamentalism. No doubt, no questions, just dogma up to your eyeballs.
> 
> The proliferation of links to partisan websites does nothing to foster or encourage a real, constructive discussion or debate of the issues. All it does is further entrench the tribalism and the dogmatism and destroys any chance of a useful or productive discussion.
> 
> ...



What you are saying is absolutely true Joe, the problem with the media and politics is, they all have a leaning or a political agenda.
Therefore the links, as you say just become a cut and paste, of that media's political leaning.
If people can't discuss the underlying politics of the parties, the whole thread just becomes a ridiculous slanging match, with absolutely no thought given to the veracity of the issues and thoughtful debate.
It doesn't just happen in politics, it happens in several threads, but it usually relates to how the politicians are reacting to what the moral police see as acceptable.


----------



## dutchie (8 December 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Gee, its boring.



From the outside looking in.  LOL


----------



## basilio (8 December 2020)

Joe Blow said:


> This right here is the problem with political "discussion" in 2020. There are no shades of grey, there is no nuance, there is nothing but black or white, one tribe or the other. It is the political version of religious fundamentalism. No doubt, no questions, just dogma up to your eyeballs.
> 
> The proliferation of links to partisan websites does nothing to foster or encourage a real, constructive discussion or debate of the issues. All it does is further entrench the tribalism and the dogmatism and destroys any chance of a useful or productive discussion.
> 
> ...




I'll offer my  thoughts Joe.

1) I was trying to move this discussion to a very particular case of Fake News - Donald Trumps efforts to undermine public confidence in the US electoral system by falsely claiming widespread fraud. In that context a few  facts emerge.

It seems almost all the mainstream media  including Fox agree that there is no evidence of substantial fraud. The overwhelming cries of fraud come from the President, his legal team and  hundreds of websites devoted to supporting anything  the President says.
Demonstrating the lack of truth/evidence of the claims requires reference to the processes of vote counting, the explanations that show why the claims are wrong and in the end the final reports of the election officials who conducted the vote. Just having an opinion about them without citing relevant evidence is meaningless.
In the above context referencing appropriate media reports is essential. This is reportage.
2) In the bigger picture I am posing a basic question about "Fake News"

* Is is acceptable for the President and his supporters to repeatedly make totally unproven and discredited  accusations of  electoral fraud which undermine public confidence in the US voting system purely for perceived political advantage ?*

The question is quite separate from whatever the President did in office. IMV it goes to the issue of the accountability of public officials for their behaviour in respecting their office and the  US Constitution. I make that point because these two factors are at the core of  the response from officials  in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan and Pennsylvania who have attested to the accuracy of the election results despite repeated public pressure from the President to

It is also the basis of Chris Krebbs responses as leader of the Government body overseeing the election.  He was forthright in detailing the mistakes in the various fraud allegations and the consequences  he sees  as a result. (Chris was duly sacked by the President for these actions.)









						Fired director of U.S. cyber agency Chris Krebs explains why President Trump's claims of election interference are false
					

Chris Krebs, a lifelong Republican, was put in charge of the agency handling election security by President Trump two years ago. When Krebs said the election was the country's most secure ever, Mr. Trump fired him. Now, Krebs speaks to Scott Pelley.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

basilio said:


> I'll offer my  thoughts Joe.
> 
> 1) I was trying to move this discussion to a very particular case of Fake News - Donald Trumps efforts to undermine public confidence in the US electoral system by falsely claiming widespread fraud. In that context a few  facts emerge.
> 
> ...



It doesn't undermine the voting system, it undermines Trumps credibility.
The voting system has a process and that process moves on, despite people running around in ever decreasing circles.
What is there, to give yourself an ulcer about?








						Time is running out for Trump as the 'safe harbor' deadline looms
					

A federal deadline for finalising US election disputes rolls around this week, and could close the door on any hope President Donald Trump has of overturning rival Joe Biden's victory.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (8 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It doesn't undermine the voting system, it undermines Trumps credibility.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




SP I agree  with your saying it doesn't undermine the voting system itself. 

It does however undermine peoples *confidence *in the system. Essentially millions of people are now believing that the "elections are rigged," "Trump was robbed" . And the consequences are that in the future millions of citizens will think elections are dodgy - no matter how transparent and well regulated they are.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

basilio said:


> SP I agree  with your saying it doesn't undermine the voting system itself.
> 
> It does however undermine peoples *confidence *in the system. Essentially millions of people are now believing that the "elections are rigged," "Trump was robbed" . And the consequences are that in the future millions of citizens will think elections are dodgy - no matter how transparent and well regulated they are.



If those people don't believe in the process, then they are stupid and no matter what the issue is they will believe whatever they are told.
There is always a percentage of the population that can't think for themselves and believe everything they are told, you will never change that, all that will change is the issue that those people carry on about.
Usually it is whatever the media can get the most mileage, from the least amount of footwork, Trump makes it easy with his silly tweeting.


----------



## basilio (8 December 2020)

SP the question I raised was more direct than just wondering how many people might believe it.

*Is it acceptable for the President (any..)  and his supporters to repeatedly make totally unproven and discredited  accusations of electoral fraud which undermine public confidence in the US voting system purely for perceived political advantage ?*

Take away the current President.  Should we accept the above behaviour ? 
What if we extended the question a bit more broadly ?

Is it acceptable for a President to use his position as Head of the State to make repeated, unproven and discredited accusations of fraud/malpractice  against

A Court of Law
A Tax system
An entire profession of people - Doctors ?
A nationwide electoral system ?
Any media organisations that do not agree with him or attempt to questions his policies.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2020)

basilio said:


> SP the question I raised was more direct than just wondering how many people might believe it.
> 
> *Is it acceptable for the President (any..)  and his supporters to repeatedly make totally unproven and discredited  accusations of electoral fraud which undermine public confidence in the US voting system purely for perceived political advantage ?*
> 
> ...



If it isn't against the law a person has every right, president or anybody else, they will be judged on that and as has happened thrown out.

Is it right that a duly elected president, prime minister, premier should be subjected to unfounded ridicule, baseless accusations etc, I don't think so, but they are constantly.
How many politicians have you seen take people to court for slander, yet they are slandered constantly, it appears that once in public life the rules of common decency disappear. Anyone from the other tribe, is fair game and both sides are guilty of it.
Take for example not long back Trump said a vaccine wasn't far away, he was shouted down, yet lo and behold a vaccine has arrived extremely quickly. I haven't heard anyone say, jeez he was right, everyone expected two years.

Just my opinion.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

basilio said:


> SP the question I raised was more direct than just wondering how many people might believe it.
> 
> *Is it acceptable for the President (any..)  and his supporters to repeatedly make totally unproven and discredited  accusations of electoral fraud which undermine public confidence in the US voting system purely for perceived political advantage ?*
> 
> ...




IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, if people believe that is acceptable, then society as a whole has broken down and disintegrated, we are just part of the swamp.


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

basilio said:


> SP the question I raised was more direct than just wondering how many people might believe it.
> 
> *Is it acceptable for the President (any..)  and his supporters to repeatedly make totally unproven and discredited  accusations of electoral fraud which undermine public confidence in the US voting system purely for perceived political advantage ?*
> 
> ...






satanoperca said:


> IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, if people believe that is acceptable, then society as a whole has broken down and disintegrated, we are just part of the swamp.




We have had 4 years of not accepting the presidency and conspiracy theories galore. What the hell is the difference now?

You guys pushed every theory out there without batting an eyelid. And now all of a sudden you are the purveyors of "truth" and justice. 


I'll say the same thing I have said the other hundred times. Let the process play out. Its not the end of the world.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> We have had 4 years of not accepting the presidency and conspiracy theories galore. What the hell is the difference now?
> 
> You guys pushed every theory out there without batting an eyelid. And now all of a sudden you are the purveyors of "truth" and justice.
> 
> ...



EXACTLY!!

Further, the electoral laws make provision for this, it IS part of the process.

Also in spite of the denial here and in the MSM, there is reason to go through this process. It is up to the courts to decide to dismiss or uphold.

Only then can the process continue. There is nothing in regular or fake news about it. don't forget the US has been through this all before most recently with Dubya and Al Bore

Be patient Komrades, in all likelihood you will get your man but just let it play out.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> We have had 4 years of not accepting the presidency and conspiracy theories galore. What the hell is the difference now?
> 
> You guys pushed every theory out there without batting an eyelid. And now all of a sudden you are the purveyors of "truth" and justice.
> 
> ...




Who are you guys? Pushing theories? Have some balls and name names, or you are exactly what you are projecting about others.

A liar is a liar and it is simple as that. Leaders should be held in high esteem, future generations look to them for guidance and direction. SIMPLE.


----------



## DB008 (8 December 2020)

​


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Who are you guys? Pushing theories? Have some balls and name names, or you are exactly what you are projecting about others.
> 
> A liar is a liar and it is simple as that. Leaders should be held in high esteem, future generations look to them for guidance and direction. SIMPLE.



And you support Biden/Harris over The God Emperor? 

Liar A good
Liar B bad

.... seems to be a pretty feckin' asinine position to me, based on liarness (sic).

Have you ever thought that somebody might be planting thoughts in your head?


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Who are you guys? Pushing theories? Have some balls and name names, or you are exactly what you are projecting about others.
> 
> A liar is a liar and it is simple as that. Leaders should be held in high esteem, future generations look to them for guidance and direction. SIMPLE.



I put you two in quotes. That was naming names. Admittedly you have only recently jumped on board but still.

You have rubbery definitions of what makes a liar. I think Trump lies, exaggerates a lot. Biden also flat out lies we are talking decades worth in public office. Apparently that's ok because it wasn't Trump (according to your previous posts).

Nobody has looked at US presidents with high esteem except whatever fanclub following they have.

Leadership qualities ain't what they use to be. 

Meh, small steps I suppose.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> I put you two in quotes. That was naming names. Admittedly you have only recently jumped on board but still.
> 
> You have rubbery definitions of what makes a liar. I think Trump lies, exaggerates a lot. Biden also flat out lies we are talking decades worth in public office. Apparently that's ok because it wasn't Trump (according to your previous posts).
> 
> ...



Last i checked Biden is not president, when and if he is, I will apply the same rules as I apply to Chump in Chief. SIMPLE

You don't like being called out, SHOW ME SOME CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF SYSTEMATIC FRAUD that will stand up in court.

"Which 2 Quotes"? You make/cast aspersions against other posters with gross generalizations.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> ave you ever thought that somebody might be planting thoughts in your head?




You may be correct, but at least I am in my head. LOL


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

Oh please, this is getting boring.



DB008 said:


> ​










Even better for Robb himeself:





But being a Patriot and supporter of Chump himself, the virus will just disappear. Like shooting ducks in a pond


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> , SHOW ME SOME CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF SYSTEMATIC FRAUD



It's really pretty simple mate, it's going to court and if it stands up, it stands up. If not, it falls over.

BOOM! Result, one way or the other


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

How many court cases have already been thrown out? >35 Surely one might stick!

Or how many men does it take to shoe a horse?


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> How many court cases have already been thrown out? >35 Surely one might stick!
> 
> Or how many men does it take to shoe a horse?



1) like I said and I will repeat ad nauseam if necessary, once the court decides all the individual cases and all legal avenues exhausted, job done, result, all done, one way or the other. That's how the legal system works my friend.

2) Usually one, but it just depends. I am sometimes part of a team... Radiologist, vet surgeon, anaesthetist, vet nurses, farrier... And as a point of order women are often involved. I hope you see the analogy I'm trying to make in response to your quip.

... And as another point of trivia, although we are not at that point yet, in Europe and the US a approximately 10% of farriers are female.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> And as another point of trivia, although we are not at that point yet, in Europe and the US a approximately 10% of farriers are female.



Would have thought women could do the job just as well as men.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Would have thought women could do the job just as well as men.



Some of the women do amazing work, full kudos to them. Honestly, it's a tough job and I dips me lid.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> 1) like I said and I will repeat ad nauseam if necessary, once the court decides all the individual cases and all legal avenues exhausted, job done, result, all done, one way or the other. That's how the legal system works my friend.



I think you missed my point, so far 35> court cases have been thrown out.

Ie the latest 
"Judge Parker said the suit seeking to overturn Mr Biden’s victory in Michigan was “stunning in its scope and breathtaking in its reach.”

“If granted, the relief would disenfranchise the votes of the more than 5.5 million Michigan citizens who, with dignity, hope, and a promise of a voice, participated in the 2020 General Election,” she said.

The judge said the suit appeared to be mainly aimed at shaking “People’s faith in the democratic process and their trust in our government.”

Not the media, a judge, how simple is this, the world is waiting, SHOW US THE EVIDENCE.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2020)

Oh Gawd!

That's how the court process works, people show the evidence and the court decides whether the evidence is valid or not.

Once again, decision made, all done, result.

But the process has to be gone through once it is initiated.

Have you never been involved in a civil suit?


----------



## dutchie (8 December 2020)

The hypocrisy is incredible.
The DTS is incredible.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Oh Gawd!
> 
> That's how the court process works, people show the evidence and the court decides whether the evidence is valid or not.
> 
> ...



Show me the evidence, over 35 courts have shown there is none. But keep believing, pray to the sun, the god, someone.


----------



## dutchie (8 December 2020)

DB008 said:


> ​




Interesting. The evidence is growing.


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Last i checked Biden is not president, when and if he is, I will apply the same rules as I apply to Chump in Chief. SIMPLE
> 
> You don't like being called out, SHOW ME SOME CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF SYSTEMATIC FRAUD that will stand up in court.
> 
> "Which 2 Quotes"? You make/cast aspersions against other posters with gross generalizations.



Umm if you read my post you will see that I said that I have said that there wasn't any evidence that I have seen to claim widespread fraud during the election. A lot of allegations, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think it would overturn the election.
At least read what I said before shooting off. I said ballot harvesting which you obviously don't know what it is, so not wasting time on that one.

I "quoted your and bas name.

I love being called out.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Umm if you read my post you will see that I said that I have said that there wasn't any evidence that I have seen to claim widespread fraud during the election. A lot of allegations, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think it would overturn the election.
> At least read what I said before shooting off. I said ballot harvesting which you obviously don't know what it is, so not wasting time on that one.
> 
> I "quoted your and bas name.
> ...




Nice, we finally agree.

You believe in Chump man, the election was fraudulent, but cannot show any evidence.


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Nice, we finally agree.
> 
> You believe in Chump man, the election was fraudulent, but cannot show any evidence.



You do know that affidavits are considered ‘evidence’ in a court case. 

That's if you wanted to get technical about it.


----------



## satanoperca (8 December 2020)

How many court cases have proceeded, how simple is this stuff.

Show me the evidence, actually show me a court case resolution in your defense.

Affidavits, they have work in Chump cases


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> How many court cases have proceeded, how simple is this stuff.
> 
> Show me the evidence, actually show me a court case resolution in your defense.
> 
> Affidavits, they have work in Chump cases



My defense of what?


----------



## basilio (9 December 2020)

Excellent summary.


----------



## dutchie (9 December 2020)

basilio said:


> Excellent summary.




That is an excellent summary. Spot on.


----------



## basilio (9 December 2020)

dutchie said:


> That is an excellent summary. Spot on.




Glad you liked it !! 
(Just not quite sure which parts..)


----------



## basilio (9 December 2020)

The Georgian Secretary of State made it crystal clear that he would very vigourous in tackling voter fraud in the critical  run off election for 2 Senate seats.
He particularly gave warning about efforts to register out of State citizens in Georgia. Excellent.

Kept his word. First cab off the rank for prosecution.









						Bill Price Under Investigation for Promoting Voter Fraud in Georgia | Law & Crime
					

A Republican lawyer who lives in Florida is under investigation by election officials in Georgia after allegedly encouraging other members of his party to violate the law and register to vote in the Peach State's upcoming Senate runoff elections.




					lawandcrime.com
				




For anyone interested this website keeps an up to date account of the flurry of law suits currently in play around the election and associated parties.


----------



## basilio (9 December 2020)

On a similar note Christopher Krebbs is suing the Trump campaign and Newsmax for  defamation over the comments that he should be "drawn and quartered" and "shot at dawn".









						Former Cybersecurity Official Sues Trump Campaign for Defamation
					

Since Trump's lawyer called Christopher Krebs a "traitor" on television, Krebs claims he and his family have been bombarded with death threats.




					firstamendmentwatch.org


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2020)

This is probably a reasonable example, of what I have been mentioning, about who owns the media. It is good to see they have sorted it out, I think quotes were used in our corona virus thread, which is to be expected after all it is in the newspaper. 




__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.couriermail.com.au
				



From the article:

_Nine Newspapers has quietly stopped running a monthly paid insert that had been criticised as Chinese Communist Party “propaganda”.

The eight-page “China Watch” liftout, produced by the CCP’s official English-language mouthpiece China Daily, had been published each month in The Sydney Morning Herald, The Age and The Australian Financial Review, as part of a deal struck under previous owners Fairfax Media in 2016.
Nine Newspapers had decided not to renew the lucrative contract six months ago, following similar decisions by media organisations around the world as the COVID-19 pandemic hit, including the UK’s Daily Telegraph in April. 

Uhlmann told The Australian newspaper at the time that the insert was “extremely disturbing”.

“Since the moment the decision was made (in 2016) to have the China Daily insert in The Sydney Morning Herald, I’ve made it clear that I’ve found it an extremely disturbing development that Communist Party propaganda has the apparent endorsement of an Australian media organisation,” he said.

“I said that before I joined Nine and I haven’t changed my opinion.”

The China Watch liftout heavily promoted the Chinese government.

In February, one story headlined “China’s fight to contain virus wins wide acclaim” praised the Chinese government’s COVID-19 responses. “China has taken the most comprehensive and rigorous containment and mitigation measures, and many go well beyond the requirements of the International Health Regulations,” it said. 
According to The Guardian, when Fairfax Media began carrying the liftout in 2016, the company justified the move by saying it was commercial printing arrangement for revenue and noted other newspapers around the world also carried it, including The Washington Post and Le Figaro. 
The liftout included the disclaimer that “this supplement, prepared by China Daily, People’s Republic of China, did not involve the news or editorial departments of The Sydney Morning Herald”. 

The China Watch liftout heavily promoted the Chinese government_.


----------



## sptrawler (11 December 2020)

I loved this headline today, hope we can follow up on it. lol








						UN defends excluding Morrison from climate summit, Canberra livid with Johnson over snub
					

The special adviser to UN secretary-general António Guterres on climate action indicated Australia had not met the threshold needed to speak at the key event.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Reading it, sounds like a comedy skit from the ABC


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2020)

I understand their concern, but really is that true, or is that journalistic license.
Could they be sued if Australia does reduce their emissions to 0, and the islands still go under. Interesting question.
THE HEADLINE "FIJI WARNS AUSTRALIA MUST ACHIEVE 0 EMISSIONS BY 2050 OR LOSE PACIFIC ISLANDS"
Well what if Australia does achieve it and the Pacific Islands still disappear, does that mean that some one can be held responsible for misleading information.









						'Sacrificial canary': Fiji warns Australia not to let Pacific sink
					

Fiji's prime minister says Australia and other wealthy nations must act on climate change and cannot treat the Pacific like sacrificial canaries in a coal mine.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2020)

Another great Aussie media post, so is it about Ausssie meat is crap, or we should eat crap.  








						How other nations are feasting on China's beef with Australia
					

At least 60 countries count China as their number-one trading partner and they're all keen to fill the void left by the trade bans on Australia.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2020)

Could be fake news IMO.








						NSW Premier rejects student quarantine plan under consideration in Victoria
					

Gladys Berejiklian has ruled out a plan for students to quarantine in hubs as Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews says daily cap on overseas arrivals will grow early next year.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2020)

Good to see a bit of honesty in the media, it happens occasionally. 









						CNN and MSNBC are fretting over post-Trump future
					

They thrived during the Trump years as they devoted countless prime-time hours to criticising a White House antagonist that their viewers just could not quit. Now faced with a Trump-less future, they are scrambling for answers.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:

_CNN and MSNBC thrived during the Trump years, reaching new heights in ratings and *revenue* while devoting countless prime-time hours to criticising a White House antagonist that their viewers just could not quit.

Now faced with a Trump-less future, top executives at the rival cable news networks have summoned star anchors and producers to private meetings in recent weeks, seeking answers to a pressing question:* What's nex*_*t*?

Yes the chooks will still need feeding, I guess we will have to wait and see what the media feeds up to the muppets next.
Stay tuned for "ranters and chanters", the next soapy.


----------



## moXJO (15 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Good to see a bit of honesty in the media, it happens occasionally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm guessing its back to climate shilling.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> I'm guessing its back to climate shilling.



Interspersed with anti ScoMo and Boris Johnson rhetoric, ah something different to look forward to, only let down by its predictability.


----------



## basilio (28 December 2020)

Interesting update from the BBC on the consequences of Fake news and misinformation in 2020.
This has become more personal in my family because a young niece has now become enmeshed in the whirlpool. Playing havoc with family and friends...









						The casualties of this year's viral conspiracy theories
					

Conspiracy theories ripped through the internet this year, destroying relationships and endangering lives.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## SirRumpole (28 December 2020)

basilio said:


> Interesting update from the BBC on the consequences of Fake news and misinformation in 2020.
> This has become more personal in my family because a young niece has now become enmeshed in the whirlpool. Playing havoc with family and friends...
> 
> 
> ...




Sorry about your family issue bas. Apart from this site I keep away from S M . I can't see why its so addictive.  Better to just email your friends.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry about your family issue bas. Apart from this site I keep away from S M . I can't see why its so addictive.  Better to just email your friends.



I can see a use for it, it's a way of sending a message to anyone who _might_ want to know whether they're a true friend or not and no problem, some have a use for that.

It's like any tool though. Useful for a purpose but incredibly destructive if used for the sake of using it. Someone with a hammer can do a hell of a lot of damage pretty quickly if they're hammering things for the sake of hammering them and not with an actual purpose.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I can see a use for it, it's a way of sending a message to anyone who _might_ want to know whether they're a true friend or not and no problem, some have a use for that.
> 
> It's like any tool though. Useful for a purpose but incredibly destructive if used for the sake of using it. Someone with a hammer can do a hell of a lot of damage pretty quickly if they're hammering things for the sake of hammering them and not with an actual purpose.




Yes it depends on the "customer base".

Groups like this with a common interest can discuss that interest rationally (mostly), same with cars, motorbikes, travel or whatever, the problem starts when things go off topic, as we have found with "General Chat", there is a greater diversity of opinion than there is with the share market and things tend to get emotional.

I think our moderator is basically correct in keeping these issues under control while still allowing a degree of discussion. He's walked a fine line pretty well imo.

Sites where things are not as well controlled are more of a problem, emotions are allowed to run free and things can turn nasty. They are the sites I keep away from.


----------



## bellenuit (26 January 2021)

The chickens are coming home to roost....

Dominion Voting Systems sues Rudy Giuliani over false election claims, seeks $1.3 billion​








						Dominion Voting Systems sues Rudy Giuliani over false election claims, seeks $1.3 billion
					

The complaint outlines evidence of Giuliani's false claims about how Dominion "fixed" the election.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## sptrawler (26 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes it depends on the "customer base".
> 
> Groups like this with a common interest can discuss that interest rationally (mostly), same with cars, motorbikes, travel or whatever, the problem starts when things go off topic, as we have found with "General Chat", there is a greater diversity of opinion than there is with the share market and things tend to get emotional.
> 
> ...



Spot on IMO, I have visited whirlpool about half a dozen times and only for an answer to a specific question, it seems to have a good knowledge base, but it will obviously attract trolls which spoils what is otherwise a great resource.


----------



## moXJO (26 January 2021)

bellenuit said:


> The chickens are coming home to roost....
> 
> Dominion Voting Systems sues Rudy Giuliani over false election claims, seeks $1.3 billion​
> 
> ...



That just means Giuliani will have access to all their data, historical files, business dealings. Will be interesting to see if it goes ahead or not.


----------



## bellenuit (26 January 2021)

moXJO said:


> That just means Giuliani will have access to all their data, historical files, business dealings. Will be interesting to see if it goes ahead or not.




Hardly an issue for Dominion, unless you actually believe they did what Giuliani said.

What is more interesting is what Giuliani's response may be, now that it appears he will not receive a presidential pardon. I say appears because a day or two ago Cohen (ex Trump lawyer) said that it was likely Trump has secretly pardoned himself and his family. Maybe Giuliani was included.

What costs are Giuliani willing to incur to defend himself in a (hopeless) case against a much bigger adversary, particularly when he has failed in every attempt thus far to prove fraud. If he has not been pardoned, what might he reveal against Trump in some plea bargain.


----------



## moXJO (26 January 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Hardly an issue for Dominion, unless you actually believe they did what Giuliani said.
> 
> What is more interesting is what Giuliani's response may be, now that it appears he will not receive a presidential pardon. I say appears because a day or two ago Cohen (ex Trump lawyer) said that it was likely Trump has secretly pardoned himself and his family. Maybe Giuliani was included.
> 
> What costs are Giuliani willing to incur to defend himself in a (hopeless) case against a much bigger adversary, particularly when he has failed in every attempt thus far to prove fraud. If he has not been pardoned, what might he reveal against Trump in some plea bargain.



That's the point. Whoever backs down obviously has something to hide. Interesting to see where it heads in a few months.


----------



## bellenuit (26 January 2021)

moXJO said:


> That's the point. Whoever backs down obviously has something to hide. Interesting to see where it heads in a few months.



If Dominion had something to hide, they wouldn’t have started the lawsuit.


----------



## satanoperca (26 January 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Hardly an issue for Dominion, unless you actually believe they did what Giuliani said.
> 
> What is more interesting is what Giuliani's response may be, now that it appears he will not receive a presidential pardon. I say appears because a day or two ago Cohen (ex Trump lawyer) said that it was likely Trump has secretly pardoned himself and his family. Maybe Giuliani was included.
> 
> What costs are Giuliani willing to incur to defend himself in a (hopeless) case against a much bigger adversary, particularly when he has failed in every attempt thus far to prove fraud. If he has not been pardoned, what might he reveal against Trump in some plea bargain.



Let's see how good he is as a lawyer, Giuliani. Easy to talk the talk, but different when defending oneself.


----------



## moXJO (26 January 2021)

bellenuit said:


> If Dominion had something to hide, they wouldn’t have started the lawsuit.



Well.... soon going to find out. 

They may have been after a retraction. I'm fairly certain dominion didn't have a clean record. But the allegations that Big G made went to a whole other level.


----------



## rederob (26 January 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm fairly certain dominion didn't have a clean record.



Perhaps you can tell us what led to that conclusion as it seems as dubious as hundreds you have reached as ASF.


----------



## bellenuit (26 January 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm fairly certain dominion didn't have a clean record.



What makes you think that? Is it a case of if enough mud is thrown, some will stick? There was no discrepancy between the electronic results and the paper results.


----------



## basilio (27 January 2021)

I think the crux of the matter is that  it seems Rudy does not have a shred of evidence on fraud in the elections.

All the "fraud" cries were made in the public arena.  No lawyer made such charges in any any of the 60 plus court cases challenging the election results. 

So here is the big opportunity for Rudy and Sidney Powell. To stand up and provide the solid proof that the election was stolen. That at least three States results were  demonstrably  unsound because of recognisable fraud.

I believe this is what 74 million Republican voters need to see.  The proof that they were robbed and that Trump should have been President.
... Or Not as the case might be.

The claim for $1.3B damages is spectacular. In practical terms Rudy is worth "only" $50m so they won't be getting any more than that out of his hide. It would be interesting to see if there are any legal insurance companies on the hook in this action. If so there would be serious concerns from those quarters.

I also don't think this case will be be settled privately even if Rudy rolls over. I think Dominion would want to have the opportunity to fully explain  in public how effective their voting procedures are, subpoena the various States to detail exactly how the votes were  checked and counted and then invite Rudy to  present his proof of widespread fraud. There were at least 50 public denunciations of Dominions machines and the result of the repeated allegations has been a total loss of faith in the election system by at least 50 million people. That needs a serious public examination IMV.


----------



## basilio (27 January 2021)

IMV there is another critical issue in this case.

Rudy is attempting to frame it as an attack on his First Amendment Rights to Free Speech and an effort to cower everyone else into silence on the issue of the stolen election. So the question to be answered by the courts is

*"Are people free to make completely unfounded, outrageous, allegations that destroy reputations  and undermine confidence in the integrity of people or institutions ?" Is this  inviolable "Free Speech" or defamation ? *Be well worth breaking out the popcorn for this tussle.









						Free speech or censorship? Social media litigation is a hot legal battleground
					

The ABA Journal is read by half of the nation's 1 million lawyers every month. It covers the trends, people and finances of the legal profession from Wall Street to Main Street to Pennsylvania Avenue.



					www.abajournal.com


----------



## moXJO (27 January 2021)

bellenuit said:


> What makes you think that? Is it a case of if enough mud is thrown, some will stick? There was no discrepancy between the electronic results and the paper results.



My mistake, I'm thinking of Smartmatic. They were the ones with the history.


----------



## bellenuit (5 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> My mistake, I'm thinking of Smartmatic. They were the ones with the history.




I'm not sure if they have any bad history, other then right wing smears, but Smartmatic are also going to make the fake news spreaders eat their words.

I was really surprised when I heard Maria Bartiromo repeat the false accusations without question. I had a lot of respect for her when she was on CNBC and at that time she was known to be capable of shifting markets based on what she opined. I was shocked when she moved to Fox, but as she was primarily on the Fox Business Network, I assumed that she could maintain some integrity. But no.

Voting technology company Smartmatic files $2.7 billion lawsuit against Fox News, Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell over 'disinformation campaign'​








						Voting technology company Smartmatic files $2.7 billion lawsuit against Fox News, Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell over 'disinformation campaign'
					

A voting technology company swept up in baseless conspiracy theories about the 2020 election filed a monster $2.7 billion lawsuit on Thursday against Fox News, some of the network's star hosts, and pro-Trump attorneys Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell, alleging the parties worked in concert to...




					edition.cnn.com
				




_Smartmatic's lawyer, J. Erik Connolly, told CNN Business that the case is one of the most "straightforward" he has ever seen. Connolly, who secured one of the largest defamation settlements ever in the "pink slime" case against ABC News, told CNN Business that because Smartmatic's role in the 2020 general election was limited to providing services to Los Angeles County, he could easily prove all the conspiracy theories false.

"By being able to say Smartmatic was in Los Angeles County and nowhere else, I've been able to prove a lie of everything they essentially said with one salient fact," Connolly told CNN. "I've been doing this for a long time and that might be one of the easiest ways to demonstrate falsity that I've ever had."_


----------



## basilio (5 February 2021)

bellenuit said:


> History (I'm not sure if they have any other then right wing smears) or not, they are also going to make the fake news spreaders eat their words.
> 
> I was really surprised when I heard Maria Bartiromo repeat the false accusations without question. I had a lot of respect for her when she was on CNBC and at that time she was known to be capable of shifting markets based on what she opined. I was shocked when she moved to Fox, but as she was primarily on the Fox Business Network, I assumed that she could maintain some integrity. But no.
> 
> ...




Powerful and dangerous case to bring before the courts.

The magnitude of the lies spread by Fox and Co are immense. In that context the scale of damages requested are equally huge.
If, as Smartmatic says, they will be easily capable of proving their case then the scale of damages could be ruinous for Rudy and Sidney and as serious problem for FOX .

And of course there is the  Dominion defamation case on the boil as well.

*2018-19:*_ CNP delivered US$2.68 billion in operating profit, which was 93% of the total, with the free-to-air television division’s operating earnings of US$470 million.

*2019-20:* Fox News delivered again as CNP reported a US$2.71 billion operating profit, 97% of the total. The television division delivered US$430 million.








						James Murdoch unloads again, but Fox News is too profitable to change
					

James Murdoch has once again unleashed on the News Corp and Fox News empire. But a look at Fox News' profit history suggests he's dreaming.




					www.crikey.com.au
				



_


----------



## basilio (5 February 2021)

Just watched a discussion on the speech of Rep Marjorie Taylor Greenes in Congress. She is certainly a poster child of Trump.

Full of lies, conspiracy theories and hate stories all  personally documented  by her. And then she denies it all and accuses the "Fake Media\" of misconstruing her statements.


----------



## bellenuit (6 February 2021)




----------



## basilio (6 February 2021)

The fall out from the Jan 6th attacks on Congress is coming.  Inspired and orchestrated by Donald Trump, thousands of people decided that one way or another Congress was going to declare Trump the winner of the 2020 Presidential election. 

Now the FBI is bringing in scores of ring leaders and basically using their social media comments to build a case for sedition - advocating the overthrow of the US government and having the means and capacity to make that happen.  Sedition carries up to 20 years jail time.

The Guardian story examines this ongoing case.  These are Trumps true believers who accepted his claims the election was stolen.  These are claims Trump has never provided evidence for and no Trump lawyers have ever dared claim this in a Court of Law.

*That is because they are a total pack of lies.* Hundreds of people who believed these lies and stormed Congress in Trumps name and ran around looking for people to hang or kill now stand to spend lengthy jail terms for a lie. 

Many of these people are just run of the mill guys/gals who just passionately believed the words of a shyster and liar. This is the effect of Fake News on the community. Our man Trump.









						Seditionaries: FBI net closes on Maga mob that stormed the Capitol
					

A huge investigation has so far arrested 235 people, including far-right militants, members of the military – and otherwise unremarkable Trump fans




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (7 February 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I'm not sure if they have any bad history, other then right wing smears, but Smartmatic are also going to make the fake news spreaders eat their words.
> 
> I was really surprised when I heard Maria Bartiromo repeat the false accusations without question. I had a lot of respect for her when she was on CNBC and at that time she was known to be capable of shifting markets based on what she opined. I was shocked when she moved to Fox, but as she was primarily on the Fox Business Network, I assumed that she could maintain some integrity. But no.
> 
> ...



They were mentioned  pre 2016 in the Guardian and nyt over various dealings. There's a history there.


----------



## basilio (7 February 2021)

Bill Maher gets to the point of why so many Americans believe in Trump.


----------



## basilio (7 February 2021)

And this clip explores how Q Anon sees itself a community saving the US with the support of Donald Trump.


----------



## basilio (16 February 2021)

_“Donald Trump will serve the next four years as President! Biden is guilty of treason and willl [sic] be arrested at some point along with Obama, Bill and Hilary [sic] Clinton and many other deep state operatives!” he wrote on 1 January Malcom George 2016 WA Liberal Party Candidate_

Why is Q Anon  attracting people? 









						How Australia became fertile ground for misinformation and QAnon
					

Australians have proven highly capable of adapting international conspiracy theories like QAnon to the local context. And the problem is not going away




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## dutchie (18 February 2021)

Fake news is very harmful to society and I agree with Tucker Carlson that the mainstream media is 'our most corrupt institution'.
The corruption has an affect on elections, who is cancelled and who is not, what news is spread and how.

The MSM is responsible for the proliferation of fake news all over the net, in forums like this one etc (I don't exclude myself). People see the MSM getting away with fake news, so they do the same.
Only when the MSM is stopped will there be any chance of it stopping from other sources. I can't see that happening soon.
Every time someone tries to call it out they are cancelled.  Tucker is trying here, lets see what the reaction is.

Tucker Carlson blasts mainstream media for its 'disgusting, corrupting love affair' with Biden​
*Fox News host Tucker Carlson criticized the media's positive take on Biden's relationship with his wife Jill and the lack of negative coverage of his family *
*He opened his show Tucker Carlson Tonight on Tuesday with the argument that the mainstream media was 'our most corrupt institution' *
*Carlson accused the journalists working at those outlets of telling 'outlandish' lies every day *
*He likened Biden's marriage to his wife Jill as a 'PR stunt' and mocked their love story, saying their relationship was 'as real as climate change' *
*Carlson used the segment to sarcastically point out how positive the coverage of Biden has been in the mainstream media compared to the Trump administration *
*








						Tucker Carlson blasts media's love affair with Joe BIden
					

Fox News host Tucker Carlson  blasted America's mainstream media on Tuesday night, saying it has sunk to a new low with its 'disgusting, corrupting love affair' with President Joe Biden.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				



*


----------



## satanoperca (18 February 2021)

dutchie said:


> Tucker Carlson



Before you find anything that swings towards your belief, can you just think about what you are going to post, and do you have a voice or just follow others beliefs (sheepie) - as the only skill I think you have is ctlr+C and ctlr+V, my budgie can do that also.

Fox news and this from wiki page : An advocate of U.S. president Donald Trump, Carlson has been described by _Politico_ as "perhaps the highest-profile proponent of 'Trumpism' and willing to criticize Trump if he strayed from it."

Of cause, he is going to write that crap, like asking the pope to believe in Islam.


----------



## dutchie (18 February 2021)

satanoperca said:


> Before you find anything that swings towards your belief, can you just think about what you are going to post, and do you have a voice or just follow others beliefs (sheepie) - as the only skill I think you have is ctlr+C and ctlr+V, my budgie can do that also.
> 
> Fox news and this from wiki page : An advocate of U.S. president Donald Trump, Carlson has been described by _Politico_ as "perhaps the highest-profile proponent of 'Trumpism' and willing to criticize Trump if he strayed from it."
> 
> Of cause, he is going to write that crap, like asking the pope to believe in Islam.



LOL


----------



## satanoperca (18 February 2021)

dutchie said:


> LOL



Answered my question, you are a ????


----------



## rederob (18 February 2021)

dutchie said:


> Fake news is very harmful to society and I agree with Tucker Carlson that the mainstream media is 'our most corrupt institution'.
> The corruption has an affect on elections, who is cancelled and who is not, what news is spread and how.
> 
> The MSM is responsible for the proliferation of fake news all over the net, in forums like this one etc (I don't exclude myself). People see the MSM getting away with fake news, so they do the same.
> ...



There are fact checking sites that prove conclusively that Tucker Carlson has a problem with honesty, while Fox is as reliable as a broken clock.
It seems you, @dutchie, are unable to determine what constitutes "news" as it does actually exist.  It is a fact, for example, that "Antifa was responsible" for recent insurrection, as claimed by Donald Trump.  That was "newsworthy." It is also a fact that Antifa was responsible according to millions of Trump's supporters.  But no credible sources actually make that claim, including most Republican Senators.

In terms of your post, the Daily Mail article is actually called "spin."  It is irrelevant as "news" although some of it may be factual.   However, so devoid is it of meaningful content that it delved into meaningless associations and personal insults.  The clincher came, however, when Carlson claimed that " the human condition" makes us liars.  In fact, lying is a learned behaviour - children cannot naturally lie! Carlson seems to be taking his cues from his own proven track record of dishonesty.  Here is his most recent gaffe.


----------



## Joe Blow (18 February 2021)

@dutchie  - it would be helpful if you and a few others around here could engage in some discussion and debate of substance. It has been a long time since you have contributed anything other than bile spitting, links to the Daily Mail or Babylon Bee and doctored images.

Are you seriously interested in debating policy issues, or are you just here to wind others up?


----------



## dutchie (18 February 2021)

Joe Blow,
Its your site. You make the rules.
If you don't like my style I am happy to go.
I definitely would not debate these turkeys. They are as one eyed as I am.
As for winding them up, I am not responsible for their reactions.


----------



## Joe Blow (18 February 2021)

dutchie said:


> Joe Blow,
> Its your site. You make the rules.
> If you don't like my style I am happy to go.
> I definitely would not debate these turkeys. They are as one eyed as I am.
> As for winding them up, I am not responsible for their reactions.




Something has to be done about the very low level of debate and the toxic atmosphere in political threads.

What I don't want see: links to conspiracy theories, misinformation, doctored images, and general unpleasantness. This applies to both the left and the right.

What I do want to see: constructive, civil, nuanced, thoughtful discussion and debate about issues of substance.


----------



## moXJO (18 February 2021)

Biden actually stole his wife from a guy that was helping him run for office, then made a fake story of how they met. He also bullshitted during his first presidential run, like his mouth was a dung factory.

Which part was tucker wrong on?


----------



## PZ99 (18 February 2021)

Joe Blow said:


> Something has to be done about the very low level of debate and the toxic atmosphere in political threads.
> 
> What I don't want see: links to conspiracy theories, misinformation, doctored images, and general unpleasantness. This applies to both the left and the right.
> 
> What I do want to see: constructive, civil, nuanced, thoughtful discussion and debate about issues of substance.



You're not going to get any of it from that account Joe. 
That and that other conspiracy theorist bloke db008## or whatever its name is.

They are sock puppets for Trumpism and the like... not capable of intellectual debate let alone anything constructive 

What makes it sad is they have somehow dragged other posters who previously seemed intelligent down to their level.

That's what makes it so toxic for the site.


----------



## Joe Blow (18 February 2021)

PZ99 said:


> You're not going to get any of it from that account Joe.
> That and that other conspiracy theorist bloke db008## or whatever its name is.
> 
> They are sock puppets for Trumpism and the like... not capable of intellectual debate let alone anything constructive
> ...




You're probably right, and that's a shame. I can't believe the way political extremism has sucked people in like a cult. Previously sensible and reasonable people have surrendered reason and independent thought to rigid dogma and black and white thinking and political tribalism.

This has all happened so incrementally that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly when it all began, but 2014/2015 is my best guess. Since then it's been a slow, relentless slide into left and right wing extremism and the sidelining of moderates and centrists.

The world is becoming a nuttier, angrier place. Not sure what to do about it to be honest.


----------



## rederob (18 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> Biden actually stole his wife from a guy that was helping him run for office, then made a fake story of how they met. He also bullshitted during his first presidential run, like his mouth was a dung factory.
> 
> Which part was tucker wrong on?



You could believe what the individuals recount, or you can keep making up stuff from wherever you get your fake news. 
By the way, my link was to a story just after Trump won the Presidency in 2016, and when most people thought Biden would never again run.

@PZ99, the sad reality is that these sock puppets are pasting fake news in a thread about the ills of fake news.  No matter how many times they are shown there content is rubbish, they return with more.
If we ignore their tripe then it gains a semblance of legitimacy - the mud thrown that sticks!


----------



## basilio (18 February 2021)

So back to the topic of  seriously  Fake News.

One of the most poisonous conspiracy theories is the 5G "is gonna kill us all" meme. So how has the government and Telstra dealt with this expanding problem ?

*How governments were left playing catch-up on misinformation*​
The growth and spread of misinformation poses a fundamental threat to Australian society, experts say. The government’s cautious approach to countering it won’t work

Australia: fertile ground for misinformation and QAnon
by Christopher Knaus














						How governments were left playing catch-up on misinformation
					

The growth and spread of misinformation poses a fundamental threat to Australian society, experts say. The government’s cautious approach to countering it won’t work




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 February 2021)

Joe Blow said:


> Previously sensible and reasonable people have surrendered reason and independent thought to rigid dogma and black and white thinking and political tribalism.



As a general rule I've said I'll avoid political comment on this forum but, given you own it , I'll add something:

A big issue as I perceive is that many simply aren't willing to consider anything they don't agree with. If it challenges their world view then, rather than listen and carefully consider what's being said, the response is to instead silence it.

That seems to be quite a forceful view. It's not a case of simply ignoring that which they disagree with but rather, actively silencing and using force if necessary to do so. Think in terms of academics being effectively shut down at universities simply for making factually correct albeit uncomfortable statements. Think in terms of "cancel culture" and sweeping under the rug anything that they dislike. Think in terms of the reality that science denial has become fashionable. Etc. If what's being said is uncomfortable then shut it down seems to be the response.

By its very nature that creates a self-reinforcing feedback loop with the predictable result being the formation of extreme views.

If someone is to the political Left (or Right) and is only willing to consider Left (or Right) arguments, and simply shuts down anything they disagree with, then any change in their position will only be in the existing direction, they move further to the Left (or Right). End result = extremism.

It's a strange situation really. We've never had so many people with a tertiary education but at the same time we've never had so many with closed, intolerant minds. It seems that instead of learning how to think, many are simply deciding not to think.

That's to the point that there seems to be a fairly common view now among younger people (eg at universities in particular) which is basically that if the if the lecturer says something the student finds offensive, then it's the lecturer's fault - they should have first checked the student's beliefs and ensured that what they said is compatible.

That leaves me..... speechless.

It seems to be true though. It's not my original thought, I saw the comment somewhere else, but so far as I've been able to determine it is largely true. Minds are _extremely_ closed now it seems.

Then there's the problem that some of our institutions whom ought to be leading are rotten to the core unfortunately. A comment I alluded to on the property price thread and which make a bit more sense now in view of recent news items. If only that's all that was wrong and it wasn't far worse.....


----------



## moXJO (19 February 2021)

rederob said:


> You could believe what the individuals recount, or you can keep making up stuff from wherever you get your fake news.
> By the way, my link was to a story just after Trump won the Presidency in 2016, and when most people thought Biden would never again run.
> 
> @PZ99, the sad reality is that these sock puppets are pasting fake news in a thread about the ills of fake news.  No matter how many times they are shown there content is rubbish, they return with more.
> If we ignore their tripe then it gains a semblance of legitimacy - the mud thrown that sticks!



Her ex husband


----------



## moXJO (19 February 2021)

Bidens first presidential run was 1988 learn why he dropped out ya plebs


----------



## dutchie (19 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That seems to be quite a forceful view. It's not a case of simply ignoring that which they disagree with but rather, actively silencing and using force if necessary to do so. Think in terms of academics being effectively shut down at universities simply for making factually correct albeit uncomfortable statements. Think in terms of "cancel culture" and sweeping under the rug anything that they dislike. Think in terms of the reality that science denial has become fashionable. Etc. If what's being said is uncomfortable then shut it down seems to be the response.




The left cannot tolerate different views.








You can pander and placate them now Joe, but eventually they will eat you up too.


----------



## rederob (19 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> As a general rule I've said I'll avoid political comment on this forum but, given you own it , I'll add something:
> 
> A big issue as I perceive is that many simply aren't willing to consider anything they don't agree with. If it challenges their world view then, rather than listen and carefully consider what's being said, the response is to instead silence it.



I don't agree with your statement.  While some may have a hard and fast world view, nothing compels them to "silence" others who do not share it.
I find the opposite contention more valid.  Social media platforms in particular have become launching pads for some weird, wacky, and worrisome ideas.  Worse, they garner religious followers who are effectively responsible for the very title of this thread.
And, worst of all, they use a suite of newly minted pejorative catchphrases that suggest that those who do not believe what they preach are the ones who have got it wrong.  In political threads they use labels, like *left *or *right*, in climate topics they refer to *alarmists*, and more generally in forums they believe they are being put down via *cancel culture*.  The data below from a Google search shows just how recent references to _*cancel culture*_ are:




	

		
			
		

		
	
"
Which brings us to the question of* freedom of speech*.
Keeping it brief, @Joe Blow  lays out some posting rules to ASF which make it clear you don't have open slather.
He also wants his site to be a place to go where people can engage in "constructive, civil, nuanced, thoughtful discussion and debate about issues of substance."
Translating this to social media platforms generally, they can ill afford (in both literal and social senses) to foster postings which bring them disrepute or reduce their footprint.
Now back to why I disagree with @Smurf1976: the @dutchie, @moXJO  or @satanopercas of the world are not being *silenced* at ASF unless they choose to play outside clearly laid out rules.
An implication of social media platforms curtailing postings which do not meet their standards is that they are accused of stifling free speech, or indulging in cancel culture.  In reality, their options are somewhat limited.
Playing by the rules really is not that hard, is it?


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 February 2021)

rederob said:


> Now back to why I disagree with @Smurf1976: the @dutchie, @moXJO or @satanopercas of the world are not being *silenced* at ASF unless they choose to play outside clearly laid out rules.



We'll have to disagree there although that's really my point. 

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing. Simply having a different view isn't a bad thing indeed the opposite is true, dissent sure beats blind acceptance without question.

Using the specific example of climate change that you mention though, as someone who's had plenty of discussions on the subject, my observation is that rather a lot have no real interest in getting to the truth. Rather, they have a pre-determined position and will clutch at whatever straws support that argument.

Both sides there are prone toward nonsense. One one side there's denial of well understood science and observation, on the other there's nonsense claims about dams not filling or that using 100% renewable energy is a cinch and so on. Neither stands objective scrutiny.

To my other point though, well as an atheist I'm well aware that should I attend a church service, they'll be on about God and so on. So far as I'm concerned that's my problem not theirs since as an adult I ought to know that churches are well known for doing so and I have the option to stay away if I don't wish to hear it. Likewise if you're a conservative religious sort of person well then don't go to a strip club and complain, as an adult you ought to know what you're in for if you hand over some money and walk through that door. If you don't like Mickey Mouse then you really ought to stay well away from Disneyland. And so on but there's zero reason why consenting adults shouldn't engage in such things if they wish to do so.

As for "cancel culture" - as I see it, it's really just the modern term for those exhibiting controlling behaviour. There's always someone around with a desire to dictate what others do. If it's not churches preaching conservatism, politicians trying to regulate something that doesn't really need regulating or media moguls telling everyone what they think is wrong or right then someone else fills the gap and does it. Only real trouble is they tend to blow up serious issues in doing so which isn't helpful.

We can disagree though - that's my point really.


----------



## moXJO (19 February 2021)

rederob said:


> And, worst of all, they use a suite of newly minted pejorative catchphrases that suggest that those who do not believe what they preach are the ones who have got it wrong.  In political threads they use labels, like *left *or *right*, in climate topics they refer to *alarmists*, and more generally in forums they believe they are being put down via *cancel culture*.  The data below from a Google search shows just how recent references to _*cancel culture*_ are:



Like climate nazi?
From whom did that originate from on this forum?
I remember.

 The problem is political left leaners are so oblivious in their righteousness that they don't even notice themselves doing it. And it's constant dribble that then descends into outright lies or ignoring history. 
Probably shouldn't point fingers.


----------



## rederob (19 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> We'll have to disagree there although that's really my point.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with disagreeing. Simply having a different view isn't a bad thing indeed the opposite is true, dissent sure beats blind acceptance without question.
> 
> ...



I actually responded to your points about people with a particular world view being "*silenced*," and said nothing about respectful disagreements, which many of us here can have.
With respect to your points on *climate*, you seem to be playing both uninformed sides rather than those who promote the science.  
With respect to *cancel culture*, it's a myth when used pejoratively.  In it's intended sense it was to refer to inappropriate behaviours not getting air time.  In that very sense Trump's tweets were flagged, and then his account removed.  Should our culture - which nowdays includes a preponderance of social media use - be used foster fake news, anti-science and violence?
Trump consistently dismissed any dissenting views on his self-assessed remarkable achievements as "fake news," and recently Trump's legal team derided his impeachment trial as "constitutional cancel culture".  Neither of those ideas warrant reasonable belief.   

Changing tack a little, as we post here a separate inquiry into the power of certain media in Australia is being conducted.  Viewers of Media Watch will know about the crap that gets bandied about as "news" via syndication.   Then there is the spray against labor Premiers on lockdowns that doesn't spill onto liberal Premiers.  For a near impartial perspective look at the New Zealand experience and contrast that with what goes down in Australia.  While this inquiry relates to mainstream media, the point I am getting to is about "influence".
The nuance is that influence affects belief, and where the basis of influence is unsound, then belief may not be reliable.


----------



## rederob (19 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> Like climate nazi?
> From whom did that originate from on this forum?
> I remember.
> 
> ...



@Joe Blow would be able to confirm any specific reference to "climate Nazi" as I am not aware of the phrase ever being used, apart from the term "Nazi" being synonymously (and pejoratively) used for zealot.

Your next point, aside from being baseless, would cut to any choice of derogatory inference, so is not a wise sense to put into a post.

Finally, how does your post meet the intended standards that @Joe Blow has asked for?


----------



## moXJO (19 February 2021)

rederob said:


> @Joe Blow .
> 
> Finally, how does your post meet the intended standards that @Joe Blow has asked for?



Obvious problems need to be discussed....


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 February 2021)

rederob said:


> With respect to your points on *climate*, you seem to be playing both uninformed sides rather than those who promote the science.



No argument there, that's exactly what I'm doing, but only because so far as I'm able to tell it's the vast majority of discussion on the subject. 

The issue's been in the mainstream public domain for 33 years now and has been a prominent feature of Australian politics for well over a decade. Despite that, it's hard to find media comment that's not guilty of bias by means of outright lies, omission of important points or overemphasis of others.  

There's the odd random bit that's neutral but there's an awful lot of silliness among it all on both the actual science side and when it comes to how to fix it. 



rederob said:


> With respect to *cancel culture*, it's a myth when used pejoratively. In it's intended sense it was to refer to inappropriate behaviours not getting air time.




I am however referring to it's practical common usage and wrongly or rightly, I'm pretty confident that what most have in mind when they hear "Cancel Culture" is things like attempts to bury fictional works such as Fawlty Towers and to stop the accurate teaching of real history.  

That sort of stuff doesn't add credibility. Any thinking adult ought to be able to understand that real history cannot be changed and that a fictional work that's almost half a century old reflects the attitudes of society at the time. 

That whole context is classic intolerance and control freak stuff. Do it my way, only my way, and you will agree with everything I say. It's in the same category as micromanaging bosses, abusive partners or moral crusaders seeking to control what others do for no necessary reason. Anyone who can, steers well clear of that sort of thing.

As an adult, I'm more than capable of understanding that a movie made decades ago depicts things that were considered acceptable at the time and which are not considered acceptable today. For example there's racism in Gone With The Wind and they sprinkled real asbestos over the actors whilst filming the Wizard of Oz for visual effect. Thankfully the world has changed.

So be it, I'm not a child, I don't need someone to protect me from the reality of what used to be.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 February 2021)

rederob said:


> Changing tack a little, as we post here a separate inquiry into the power of certain media in Australia is being conducted. Viewers of Media Watch will know about the crap that gets bandied about as "news" via syndication. Then there is the spray against labor Premiers on lockdowns that doesn't spill onto liberal Premiers. For a near impartial perspective look at the New Zealand experience and contrast that with what goes down in Australia. While this inquiry relates to mainstream media, the point I am getting to is about "influence".
> The nuance is that influence affects belief, and where the basis of influence is unsound, then belief may not be reliable.



We're on the same page with that one. 

I would however always argue that nobody should ever act upon "belief" and with anything important should check the facts.


----------



## moXJO (19 February 2021)

rederob said:


> I actually responded to your points about people with a particular world view being "*silenced*," and said nothing about respectful disagreements, which many of us here can have.
> With respect to your points on *climate*, you seem to be playing both uninformed sides rather than those who promote the science.
> With respect to *cancel culture*, it's a myth when used pejoratively.  In it's intended sense it was to refer to inappropriate behaviours not getting air time.  In that very sense Trump's tweets were flagged, and then his account removed.  Should our culture - which nowdays includes a preponderance of social media use - be used foster fake news, anti-science and violence?
> Trump consistently dismissed any dissenting views on his self-assessed remarkable achievements as "fake news," and recently Trump's legal team derided his impeachment trial as "constitutional cancel culture".  Neither of those ideas warrant reasonable belief.



Cancel culture was not Trump specific. The above ignores groups set up to cancel anything they don't like through threats, intimidation, etc.
No offence but I wouldn't stick you with the 'overseer of truth' title to govern over the forums.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> The problem is political left leaners are so oblivious in their righteousness that they don't even notice themselves doing it




The idea that you can publicly say anything you like, no matter how strongly others disagree with it, fits very well into "Left" thinking of the 1990's and earlier indeed they did exactly that at the time.

There was no shortage of people who'd have gladly shut them down, which would have been dead easy to do given the limited number of media platforms at the time, but they considered it their duty to allow dissenting views to be heard despite at times vehement disagreement with what was being said.


----------



## rederob (19 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> Cancel culture was not Trump specific. The above ignores groups set up to cancel anything they don't like through threats, intimidation, etc.
> No offence but I wouldn't stick you with the 'overseer of truth' title to govern over the forums.



I merely gave a very recent example, and it reflected its inappropriate nature.  That is, there could never have have been any reasonable attempt to cancel debate on what the Constitution allowed as it was a decision of the Republicans to *not *proceed with Impeachment until after Biden's inauguration.  It was just another smear from the Trump machine.  
With regard to groups not liking things, I cannot recall a time in my life where such people did not exist.  The problem nowadays is that we have provided a range of platforms for them to visit occasionally false information upon us, and want us to swallow it.  While QAnon takes the cake in the USA, here we have our anti-vaxxers out in full force, aside from fringe groups, occasional politicians and the odd chef saying covid is just like the flu.
With regard to your last point, I provide links to points I make.  You are welcome to use the standards @Joe Blow seeks from us if you choose to reply.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2021)

rederob said:


> With respect to *cancel culture*, it's a myth when used pejoratively.




No it isn't, it definitely exists.

Like this:-









						Richard Dawkins event cancelled over his 'abusive speech against Islam'
					

Berkeley’s KPFA Radio cancels appearance by evolutionary biologist after learning of his ‘hurtful speech’ against the religion – a charge the author contests




					www.theguardian.com
				




"Abusive speech" is a matter of opinion and could be applied to anything that a listener doesn't agree with.

Cancel culture exists and is PC gone mad.

It's abhorrent.


----------



## rederob (19 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No it isn't, it definitely exists.
> 
> Like this:-
> 
> ...



You have not understood my point.  Your example agrees with my stance.
So did @Smurf1976's examples.

Some people use the phrase when its basis is proven false or when it defies logic:  they use it pejoratively to distract  or demean.   I gave an example wrt to Trump's Impeachment.


----------



## dutchie (20 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> The problem is political left leaners are so oblivious in their righteousness that they don't even notice themselves doing it. And it's constant dribble that then descends into outright lies or ignoring history.
> Probably shouldn't point fingers.



Yes, I have to agree with you moXJO, but I am not too sure they are oblivious.

The left are often hard-headed in their opinions and judgmental about others’ behaviours, hoping to control what other people think and say to cut off debate. They have tried to control what I say on numerous occasions.

It is difficult to debate these types of people, and to be honest, I have given up doing so a long time ago. If you don’t agree with them then they use intimidation tactics as shown in Post #563 or use cancel culture (which is definitely not a myth).

In extreme cases, like Antifa and BLM, they use violence to intimidate people who don’t agree with them.

I prefer to use ridicule using sites like Babylon Bee, which does a much better job than I ever could, and they hate it.

Unfortunately, things are only going to get worse as they have infiltrated too many institutions, especially educational ones.

I tip my hat to you and Smurf1976 as you try to be more liberal.


----------



## rederob (20 February 2021)

dutchie said:


> The left are often hard-headed in their opinions and judgmental about others’ behaviours, hoping to control what other people think and say to cut off debate. They have tried to control what I say on numerous occasions.



That is a blatant lie @dutchie.  What you can say at ASF is arbitrated by @Joe Blow.
As for debate, you seldom ever offered anything except a pot pourri of garbled nonsense, or cut and pastes that offers no explanation, as per post #563 above.   @Joe Blow has made this point to you many times.  What @dutchie did not mention about post #563 was that Lauren, the woman sitting, was a regular at BLM protests, but did not know who this group was as they had no placards and were playing to a media entourage covering just 2 DC blocks.  It's a classic example of uninformed people making a baseless inference.


----------



## Joe Blow (20 February 2021)

Why would anyone who is not interested in participating in discussion and debate be a part of a discussion forum? The entire purpose of ASF is discussion and debate. That was its purpose when it was first created and remains its purpose today.

For those who are just interested in posting and not discussion, sign up for your free Wordpress blog here and post all you want.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2021)

dutchie said:


> The left cannot tolerate different views.




The extremes of both sides cannot tolerate different views.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (21 February 2021)

Be kind and respectful to others at all times and help them if you can.

gg


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 February 2021)

dutchie said:


> I tip my hat to you and Smurf1976 as you try to be more liberal.




In my view the greatest problem when it comes to debates is an inability to reflect and acknowledge that whichever side you're on, your side probably does have some very significant flaws. Dig into the past and there's probably some nasty stuff there too.

Take science denial for example. One end of the spectrum denies the science when it comes to climate change and vaccinations. Now try doing some air pollution modeling for a large industrial development or modeling the inflows to a proposed on-river dam. You'll soon find the Left screaming that science isn't reliable and can't be trusted. Both as bad as each other, they'll both deny science when it suits and for other issues embrace it.

As for fake news, biggest problem is that telling outright lies seems to have become acceptable in public debate and is rarely if ever called out. That makes for an incredible risk versus reward proposition - tell the lie and if it works then you gain whatever you were trying to gain. If it doesn't work then you lose nothing. So long as that continues then logically so will the fake news.


----------



## rederob (21 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> As for fake news, biggest problem is that telling outright lies seems to have become acceptable in public debate and is rarely if ever called out. That makes for an incredible risk versus reward proposition - tell the lie and if it works then you gain whatever you were trying to gain. If it doesn't work then you lose nothing. So long as that continues then logically so will the fake news.



I do not agree.
The tens of millions who voted for Trump, as an example, are unlikely to agree that telling lies in a public debate is acceptable.  I doubt they are different, as people, from the slightly more millions in number who voted for Biden and who also are unlikely to condone lying in public.
Moreover, fact checking public figures has become an increasingly important role in the media, with some fact checkers getting star billing in news segments.
Continuing to use Trump as an example, fact checkers documented over 25000 inaccurate or untruthful public comments, and these are available to anyone wanting to scour the intent for his dishonesty.  If that was not enough, Trump's claim of electoral victory because there was electoral fraud perpetrated against him were proven groundless in 60+ court cases.  Despite this, proven false claims of electoral fraud even carried through to Congress on January 6 by Republicans who would not accept the integrity of Electors nominated by a number of States.
So in the USA, as an example, a large swathe of the population refused to believe that Trump was lying on a regular basis and, ultimately,  also refused to acknowledge the legal system acted honestly in dismissing Trump's electoral fraud claims.  When that was further carried into Congressional voting of the electoral outcome by Republicans, it de facto legitimised their popular belief.  
Interestingly, a number of threads at ASF contain postings which reinforce the popular belief of Republican voters.  For those of us who continually pointed out that the information they used had already been debunked or otherwise proven false, it was a fools errand.  

Disinformation (and smear) is big business, especially in the USA.  From DDT to tobacco, from asbestos to chlorofluorocarbons, and from climate to renewables, vested interests pour billions of dollars into lies and deceit that keeps them in profit or in power. This video is a concise snapshot of one such example.  To maintain their false narratives they actively engage all levels of media and spew forth "fake news" for us to swallow, hook line and sinker.
As I see it, the greater logic to fake news is that a large number of people choose to accept it because they prefer to believe who is telling it (often without evidence) irrespective of their credentials.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2021)

rederob said:


> I do not agree.
> The tens of millions who voted for Trump, as an example, are unlikely to agree that telling lies in a public debate is acceptable.  I doubt they are different, as people, from the slightly more millions in number who voted for Biden and who also are unlikely to condone lying in public.
> Moreover, fact checking public figures has become an increasingly important role in the media, with some fact checkers getting star billing in news segments.
> Continuing to use Trump as an example, fact checkers documented over 25000 inaccurate or untruthful public comments, and these are available to anyone wanting to scour the intent for his dishonesty.  If that was not enough, Trump's claim of electoral victory because there was electoral fraud perpetrated against him were proven groundless in 60+ court cases.  Despite this, proven false claims of electoral fraud even carried through to Congress on January 6 by Republicans who would not accept the integrity of Electors nominated by a number of States.
> ...




I have to agree with The Red here, sort of.

The fact that Trump was thrown off Twitter was a clear indication that lying, falsification and fake news was not acceptable to that organisation at least.

It's a pity that Facebook does not follow suit and clear out some of the garbage on its site.

So the tolerance to fake news seems a bit fractured, and   just shows the need for greater media diversity.

However there is a contradiction in rederobs statements.

_A. "The tens of millions who voted for Trump, as an example, are unlikely to agree that telling lies in a public debate is acceptable.  I doubt they are different, as people, from the slightly more millions in number who voted for Biden and who also are unlikely to condone lying in public"

B. "So in the USA, as an example, a large swathe of the population refused to believe that Trump was lying on a regular basis and, ultimately,  also refused to acknowledge the legal system acted honestly in dismissing Trump's electoral fraud claims.  When that was further carried into Congressional voting of the electoral outcome by Republicans, it de facto legitimised their popular belief."
_
Statement A seems to say that you think that people don't believe lying is acceptable and statement B indicates you think that a lot of people believed the lies.

What do you actually mean ?


----------



## rederob (21 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I have to agree with The Red here, sort of.
> 
> The fact that Trump was thrown off Twitter was a clear indication that lying, falsification and fake news was not acceptable to that organisation at least.
> 
> ...



Thanks @SirRumpole.
Most will agree that lying in public is unacceptable.
However, Republican voters did not believe Trump lied.  They instead believed, as Trump proclaimed relentlessly, that MSM and their fact checkers were "fake news". 
Even today a majority of Trump's voters won't accept there is no evidence favouring his misconceptions:
*Three-quarters of Republicans believe a lie about the 2020 election*

*Could there be a more damning example of the effect of fake news?*


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2021)

rederob said:


> However, Republican voters did not believe Trump lied. They instead believed, as Trump proclaimed relentlessly, that MSM and their fact checkers were "fake news".




So Trump voters are honest but stupid !


----------



## rederob (21 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So Trump voters are honest but stupid !



Can we be nice and propose they might be a tad more gullible.   They are more likely to be men (let's face it, some of us are suckers to beguilement) and on average have lesser educational attainment.


----------



## moXJO (21 February 2021)

rederob said:


> Thanks @SirRumpole.
> Most will agree that lying in public is unacceptable.
> However, Republican voters did not believe Trump lied.  They instead believed, as Trump proclaimed relentlessly, that MSM and their fact checkers were "fake news".
> Even today a majority of Trump's voters won't accept there is no evidence favouring his misconceptions:
> ...



First off it's a blanket statement that you then assume is pointing to the belief that it was simply "fake news" though I'm sure it resonated with many voters.

Many believe the use of mail-in voting: that were fought in courts in each state, coupled with vote harvesting and Democrat action groups helped tip the balance. Regardless of COVID-19 or not, No election ever saw the same conditions that were placed on the Trump/Biden election. 

The lead up of Democrats running a smear campaign for 4 years then opened the door to fake news. Or are we forgetting some of the edited crap the majority here ran with? 
 It was outright crap or wild speculation since 2016.  

History is then forgotten and wiped.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> The lead up of Democrats running a smear campaign for 4 years then opened the door to fake news. Or are we forgetting some of the edited crap the majority here ran with?




What about Hilary Clinton and the pizza parlour smear ?









						Pizzagate conspiracy theory - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 February 2021)

rederob said:


> do not agree.
> The tens of millions who voted for Trump, as an example, are unlikely to agree that telling lies in a public debate is acceptable.



Trump told a lot of lies and, after an extended period of doing so, some of them were ultimately called out that’s true. 

He still got away with it for a long time though - he won an election after the nonsense started after all so rather a lot did accept it.

Meanwhile countless others, at both ends of the political spectrum, spread untruths without any real effort to stamp them out.

In the Australian context, Coalition voters will tend to jump on any lie told by Labor and fair enough. What they won’t accept however is that their own side also tells lies.

Same with all politics. Labor or Greens supporters will call out the Coalition or One Nation, and fair enough, but you won’t see them pointing to their own side’s flaws.

I’ve intentionally mentioned all sides there because they’re all much the same. If it’s not outright lies then it’s omission or misrepresenting the significance of one aspect of an issue over all other aspects of it.

Pick any random subject and usually both sides are guilty of at least omitting important parts of the story and often far worse.


----------



## rederob (21 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> First off it's a blanket statement that you then assume is pointing to the belief that it was simply "fake news" though I'm sure it resonated with many voters.



It was proven false by competent people and the judiciary.  
Despite zero evidence to the contrary, Trump's false claims were believed, so you are correct in stating his words resonated with many (gullible) voters.
Is there a reason you need to reiterate my point?


moXJO said:


> Many believe the use of mail-in voting: that were fought in courts in each state, coupled with vote harvesting and Democrat action groups helped tip the balance.



Correct, many believe that.
But the problem with such lame thinking is that the people who mailed in votes were equally as likely in non-covid times to have voted the way they did - just that a lot more Democrats than Republicans heeded the CDC's advice to avoid crowds whenever possible and used the electoral system in a manner it was possible.  In essence, they were also heeding President Trump's health advice, except the results ended up not being in his favour!


----------



## rederob (21 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Trump told a lot of lies and, after an extended period of doing so, some of them were ultimately called out that’s true.
> 
> He still got away with it for a long time though - he won an election after the nonsense started after all so rather a lot did accept it.
> 
> ...



I don't recall many *big* lies slipping through in Australia.
Our media are pretty good at spotting outright lies.
However, the one I am personally most familiar with was subsequently exposed in a detailed inquiry into a certain maritime incident, aka children overboard.  
Can you provide some recent examples?


----------



## bellenuit (21 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> The lead up of Democrats running a smear campaign for 4 years




Is it a smear campaign if it's true? I saw very little said about Trump that didn't turn out to be true when independent witnesses were called. The fact he wasn't prosecuted was because he ensured, with the help of Barr and the GOP, he was above the law. I think in the coming year a lot of what was hidden and deemed to just be smears by the right will prove to have been true.


----------



## moXJO (21 February 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Is it a smear campaign if it's true? I saw very little said about Trump that didn't turn out to be true when independent witnesses were called. The fact he wasn't prosecuted was because he ensured, with the help of Barr and the GOP, he was above the law. I think in the coming year a lot of what was hidden and deemed to just be smears by the right will prove to have been true.



I'd say read through again. From "very fine people", 'pee pee dossier', not talking against white supremacists, talking ill of dead soldiers, and the list went on. 

 It wasn't just Trump being smeared. Or are we quick to forget cases like Nick  sandmann. There were multiple incidents which when put to scrutiny did not hold up.
Trump was a liar, but to ignore everything during his term is idiocy in action. It got to this stage from more than just Trump.


----------



## moXJO (21 February 2021)

rederob said:


> It was proven false by competent people and the judiciary.
> Despite zero evidence to the contrary, Trump's false claims were believed, so you are correct in stating his words resonated with many (gullible) voters.
> Is there a reason you need to reiterate my point?
> 
> ...



Did any election ever change as drastically as Trump/Biden regardless of COVID being a factor?
You still are trying to lead away from the fact it was not a normal run election, at all. You try and fall back on the conspiracy theories that emerged at the end as some sort of proof of superiority in thought against those "Dumb Republicans". I'd say the level of stupidity from all quarters was on display all the way through his term. Much of it emanating from anti Trumpers for the first few years.

You can spin it anyway you want but it was the last straw in an unbelievable level of collaboration between media and Democrat/activist up to that point. And that's not to say Trump was in anyway innocent in the whole matter. But you ignore half the story of how it got to that point with simplistic reads of how it unfolded.

It was a one off under a Trump term that was fought by strategists. Mail in was a shoe in for Democrats. Trump failed hard on strategy at that end point.

Seriously, accusation after accusation was scrapped found to be half truths,  misrepresentation or lies. This was the nail in the coffin of supporters trusting officials.


----------



## moXJO (21 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> What about Hilary Clinton and the pizza parlour smear ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



4chan


----------



## basilio (21 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> From "very fine people", 'pee pee dossier', not talking against white supremacists, talking ill of dead soldiers, and the list went on.



Do you really want to talk about these  incidents as if they represent smears against Trump as distinct from some really  xhit behaviour?

Anyway just for the sake of argument  I could draw a line on all of Trumps behaviour prior to the November  election.  (I won't really  but for the sake of this debate lets do it .)  

*However** from November 6th onwards Donald Trump ran a relentless campaign of  lies about the election results in a supreme effort to retain power. *He attempted to intimidate and turn  State  election officials.  He trashed the offices and officials running the election. He ran 60 court cases athat went absolutely nowhere* because there was absolutely no widespead fraud.*

He called a Jan 6th rally to bring together his now enraged Trump army and set them loose on the Capitol to intimidate Congress into not declaring Biden President

He watched on TV as they rampaged through the building looking for people (Mike Pence)  to hang  or  otherwise attack. He watched  overwhelmed police  being bashed , crushed and  killed defending the  institution he was sworn to uphold but had decided to subvert.

And all this was done on the basis of calculated lies or "Fake News" as we are discussing in this thread.


----------



## moXJO (21 February 2021)

basilio said:


> Do you really want to talk about these  incidents as if they represent smears against Trump as distinct from some really  xhit behaviour?
> 
> Just for the sake of argument  I could draw a line on all of Trumps behaviour prior to the November  election.  (I won't really  but for the sake of this debate lets do it .)



The best smears are believable.
You porked on these like a Qanon follower with a pedo conspiracy. Majority of those were discredited.

Does it make it right that you are basically saying "it's ok because he was a shitbag anyway"?


----------



## basilio (21 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> The best smears are believable.
> You porked on these like a Qanon follower with a pedo conspiracy. Majority of those were discredited.
> 
> Does it make it right that you are basically saying "it's ok because he was a shitbag anyway"?




Totally and utterly irrelevant Moxjo.  I made that point *simply  to focus on the most outrageous, treasonous and destructive  lie that Trump has perpetuated on the US  community.*

The lie of the stolen election. The lie that has been used to vilify anyone and everyone who dares point out the clear facts of how many votes each candidate received and how, when added up, they resulted in a clear mandate for Joe Biden.

And yet this creature still insists that black is white  and that he was robbed. And because he is what he is, millions of people choose to believe a complete, monstrous lie and hundreds of Republican politicians feel compelled  or determined to also believe this lie.

Perhaps not surprisingly you also chose to ignore that overwhelming, self serving corruption of reality.

________________________________

I've said it before, repeatedly.  Trumps lies are like confetti at a wedding. But in Feb 2021 I believe  that above all he needs to be held absolutely accountable for what he did to the American political system after he lost the 2020 election.

He needs to have his day in court to prove on oath his allegations of fraud. He needs to stand and deliver.

And when he and his co conspiraters  can't,  they need to face the consequences  of systematically destroying the confidence 30% of th US public in the integrity of the system that  elects the people responsible for governing the country.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 February 2021)

rederob said:


> Can you provide some recent examples?



One that immediately comes to mind from a personal perspective is "coal power fails in the heat".

A pretty widely reported claim that's well known in the energy industry and moderately well known outside it.

Here's one numerous examples over a period of several years but there's many more: https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/sola...-off-gas-and-coal-plants-20180112-h0hfkj.html

Quite a few energy company senior managers and even CEO's thought there must be some basis to it given it was being said in the mainstream media and by countless environmental and other political groups. So too did plenty of engineers who assumed it must relate to facilities other than the ones they were responsible for. Even Dan Andrews, Premier of Victoria, publicly stated it as fact presumably following advice to that effect.

In actual truth the claim is either true or false depending on how you interpret the wording. That being so, it could certainly be termed "misleading".

If you interpret it to mean that it was hot on a particular day and a coal plant just happened to fail on that day but the two events, it being hot and the plant failing, are unrelated then it is true since coal plant failures have indeed been known to occur on hot days.

If you interpret it to mean that a coal plant failed _because_ of the hot weather, and that failures of such facilities are more likely when it is hot, then it's fake news.

Suffice to say I've yet to come across anyone who hasn't interpreted it in the second manner, that hot weather causes failure. A state Premier stated it in that context, quite a few environmental groups have repeated the claim in that context, even people in the industry interpreted it that way. Meanwhile consultants and analysts started cranking out things like this: https://wattclarity.com.au/articles...ture-effects-on-generation-supply-technology/ All of which is prompted by the second interpretation, that the hot weather causes failure.

From a technical perspective there's neither a valid theoretical explanation nor actual operating data to support the second interpretation. From a theoretical perspective if you've got a fire burning at ~2100'C producing steam at 600'C then you wouldn't expect that the air temperature outside is going to make a lot of difference. From a statistical perspective the data shows that yes failures most certainly do occur but no, they aren't triggered by hot weather.

What _does_ occur during hot weather is that electricity consumption greatly increases, in some states it literally doubles, some types of generating plant lose a few % of capacity (gas turbines tend to suffer the worst) and since some states have barely adequate generating capacity anyway the end result is any failure which happens to occur most likely will lead to shortage.

Heat doesn't _cause _coal or any other technology to fail however, just means it's a problem if it happens to fail for some other reason. In other words, hot days are the energy equivalent of that old investment story about the tide going out and exposing who's swimming naked. It shows up the problems but it's not the actual cause.

It's much like saying "train passengers suffer heart attacks" - factually correct but a similarly misleading statement. Yes some people who regularly use trains will have a heart attack. Their use of trains isn't the cause of having a heart attack however. It's a misleading statement given the very different plausible interpretations of it.

So the claim is not strictly untrue, it can be interpreted in a way that's true, but it's certainly being mischievous to make a statement on a serious subject which can readily be interpreted to have two radically different meanings and with most people, including a state Premier, seemingly having interpreted a false meaning in practice.

Now I'll refer back to the SMH article I linked above. Have a close look at the URL and you'll spot a key word there - "opinion".

Ah ha!

The SMH is a _news_paper but this article is not _news_. Rather, it's _opinion_.

Opinion of Ebony Bennett, deputy director of The Australia Institute.

Now I've nothing against Ebony but if you were to do a Google search on her then you'd find that she's also a former media advisor to

Wait for it.....

The Greens.

Ah, now it makes sense. A misleading claim about coal from someone associated with a political party that really doesn't like coal. Well I never would have guessed that....  

Now to be fair to the SMH, they haven't hidden this. It's _opinion_ from someone who's employed by a think tank which doesn't like the industry being commented on and who was previously employed by someone else who didn't like it either. 

How many can honestly say they didn't think it was actual news though or at least something based on proven fact? It fooled plenty of senior managers, it fooled engineers, it fooled a state Premier. A consultant even ran a competition with a prize on offer for anyone who could get to the bottom of it.

To be clear though, I'm not taking a one sided argument here. I wouldn't for a moment suggest that the other side wouldn't be just as misleading and employ very similar tactics. That's my point really.

No matter what the subject, unless you were there personally, or you're an expert on the subject, or you've got time to do some very serious research into it then without any of those you're at risk of being mislead in practice.

Reminds me of that chain with the great big sign saying "AUSTRALIA'S CHEAPEST CHEMIST" - look really closely at the sign and in small print to the left are the words "Is this?". They're not saying it's the cheapest, it's a question not a statement, but they know exactly how most will read it.

If a subject's even slightly contentious, if someone has something to gain either financially or politically from influencing opinion, then truth tends to be a casualty of that. Regardless of which side of the argument you're on, your side will at the very least seriously stretch the truth and so will the other side.


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2021)

basilio said:


> Totally and utterly irrelevant Moxjo.  I made that point *simply  to focus on the most outrageous, treasonous and destructive  lie that Trump has perpetuated on the US  community.*
> 
> The lie of the stolen election. The lie that has been used to vilify anyone and everyone who dares point out the clear facts of how many votes each candidate received and how, when added up, they resulted in a clear mandate for Joe Biden.
> 
> ...




Which stolen election? 
The Russian theory or the vote rigging theory?


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2021)

Here's the point bas: you spread just as many theories for whatever reason. "Just like confetti" to your target audience. I don't remember Rob running in with his "fact" checking then either.
And that contributed hugely to the lack of faith in the system. It also opened the way to extremism either side and division. 

  It was a four year assault program that was insane to watch. Misquoted and misinterpreted. And this was Trump. There was enough true sht to hang him on. He literally lies all the time. 

But anyway ignore history and let's just bask in the glow of a job well done. 

Like I said. I wanted to see the system burn. Instead it outwitted the slyest of fox.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> One that immediately comes to mind from a personal perspective is "coal power fails in the heat".




"Renewable energy caused blackouts in South Australia".

The fact that the wind knocked down power lines had nothing to do with it.


----------



## rederob (22 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> One that immediately comes to mind from a personal perspective is "coal power fails in the heat".
> 
> A pretty widely reported claim that's well known in the energy industry and moderately well known outside it.
> 
> ...



As your first linked article was clearly denoted as "opinion" rather than news, and not from an engineer or person who understood the grid, I am not sure why you instanced it. 
It was Trump's *opinion *that he won the 2020 election, yet no facts support him.
As I see it you have demonstrated the power of poor journalism to influence the views of others.  It's what Fox and a few other media platforms perpetuate to this day and is unsound as we all know.

One of the best examples of media manipulation of the facts at the moment is the thrashing of "Dictator Dan".  The Victorian Premier is being guided by health advice, as is every other Premier.  Murdoch media has waged a relentless war on Daniel Andrews, yet in Western Australia the labor Premier who has actually adopted the toughest border controls of any State or Territory is treated with comparative reverence by the media which is significantly influenced by the views of Kerry Stokes.


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2021)

rederob said:


> As your first linked article was clearly denoted as "opinion" rather than news, and not from an engineer or person who understood the grid, I am not sure why you instanced it.
> It was Trump's *opinion *that he won the 2020 election, yet no facts support him.
> As I see it you have demonstrated the power of poor journalism to influence the views of others.  It's what Fox and a few other media platforms perpetuate to this day and is unsound as we all know.
> 
> One of the best examples of media manipulation of the facts at the moment is the thrashing of "Dictator Dan".  The Victorian Premier is being guided by health advice, as is every other Premier.  Murdoch media has waged a relentless war on Daniel Andrews, yet in Western Australia the labor Premier who has actually adopted the toughest border controls of any State or Territory is treated with comparative reverence by the media which is significantly influenced by the views of Kerry Stokes.



Your bias is showing. 
Dan has overseen monumental stuff ups that ended in deaths. Not only that but we had ministers thrown under the bus and cover up of facts. He deserves scrutiny at this point.

But you defend the rubbish media came out with that confirms your bias?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> Dan has overseen monumental stuff ups that ended in deaths. Not only that but we had ministers thrown under the bus and cover up of facts. He deserves scrutiny at this point.




As I recall there was an independent inquiry that found no one was to blame.

I don't entirely believe that, but at least there was an inquiry.


----------



## sptrawler (22 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> As I recall there was an independent inquiry that found no one was to blame.
> 
> I don't entirely believe that, but at least there was an inquiry.



Hasn't their been inquires into Trump, that you didn't entirely believe as well?


----------



## basilio (22 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> One that immediately comes to mind from a personal perspective is "coal power fails in the heat".
> 
> A pretty widely reported claim that's well known in the energy industry and moderately well known outside it.
> 
> ...




It's a long story Smurf and one can appreciate that it isn't axiomatic that coal fired power stations fail in extreme temperatures as a matter of course.

But for a mountain of reasons switching ASAP to a renewable energy based energy supply system with appropriate back up makes a lot of sense.
1) The power stations, particularly in Victoria, are nearing the end of their  productive life and there will be an inevitable increase in breakdowns which will be exacerbated by extreme heat conditions
2) The increasing need to rapidly reduce CO2 emissions to reduce teh impact of CC is pressing. 
3) The economic evidence is now clear that renewable energy systems with back up are cheaper than coal or gas fired stations
4) The very high water use of power stations for cooling is an environmental pressure that should be relieved as water resources become scarcer in a hotter climate.

There is some more rigorous analysis of these issues in teh link.








						(PDF) Potential Risks of Climate Change on Thermal Power Plants
					

PDF | the environmental challenges posed by the accelerated changes in climate necessitate that electric power generation utilities review their... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net


----------



## rederob (22 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> Your bias is showing.
> Dan has overseen monumental stuff ups that ended in deaths. Not only that but we had ministers thrown under the bus and cover up of facts. He deserves scrutiny at this point.
> 
> But you defend the rubbish media came out with that confirms your bias?



Again, you fail to notice that this thread is about "fake news".
And again, the issue you raised has been covered elsewhere at ASF.
That said, your claim that I "defend the rubbish media came out with" is completely at odds with my view about the Murdoch media.  
Most of my comments in these threads relate to weak or false claims and poor logic.
For example I regularly disagree with @Smurf1976 despite him being a highly respected poster, with some of the best and most detailed comments you will find in any forum.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Hasn't their been inquires into Trump, that you didn't entirely believe as well?



Such as ?

You meant impeachment ?

That's a political event not an independent inquiry.

Throwing his election fraud claims out of a court that he helped to appoint; yes I believe that.


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2021)

rederob said:


> Again, you fail to notice that this thread is about "fake news".
> And again, the issue you raised has been covered elsewhere at ASF.
> That said, your claim that I "defend the rubbish media came out with" is completely at odds with my view about the Murdoch media.
> Most of my comments in these threads relate to weak or false claims and poor logic.
> For example I regularly disagree with @Smurf1976 despite him being a highly respected poster, with some of the best and most detailed comments you will find in any forum.



Often your posts only shows half the picture. Which is disinformation in itself. Presenting the facts from one side of the argument does not paint a true picture of the overall story. 

Don't get me wrong I do it. Others do it. But your point weakens.


SirRumpole said:


> As I recall there was an independent inquiry that found no one was to blame.
> 
> I don't entirely believe that, but at least there was an inquiry.




No one owned up to the security guard thing. That was a huge question mark.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> No one owned up to the security guard thing. That was a huge question mark.




I agree.


----------



## basilio (22 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I agree.



The question of why security was so poor around the Capitol was widely discussed.

Or course if  the then President hadn't been firing up his followers with a bunch of total lies about a stolen election for two months and then sent then off to the Capitol on a mission to intimidate Congress into not counting unfavourable electoral votes there wouldn't have been a riot would there ?

There is useful fact check which  pulls together all the information around the riot.

FactCheck Posts ›    Featured Posts
Timeline of National Guard Deployment to Capitol​








						Timeline of National Guard Deployment to Capitol - FactCheck.org
					

On the day of the Capitol riot on Jan. 6, the first National Guard members arrived to assist at about 5:40 p.m. Here, we present a timeline about the efforts to deploy those troops.




					www.factcheck.org


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2021)

basilio said:


> The question of why security was so poor around the Capitol was widely discussed.
> 
> Or course if  the then President hadn't been firing up his followers with a bunch of total lies about a stolen election for two months and then sent then off to the Capitol on a mission to intimidate Congress into not counting unfavourable electoral votes there wouldn't have been a riot would there ?
> 
> ...




Bas, I think moXjo and I were talking about the security guard issue in Victorian hotel quarantine.

However, you are welcome to sidetrack if you like.


----------



## basilio (22 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Bas, I think moXjo and I were talking about the security guard issue in Victorian hotel quarantine.
> 
> However, you are welcome to sidetrack if you like.



Oops. My bad.  I was wondering why Moxjo seemed to be responding to my post by ignoring the riot and causes behind it and asking questions about the security ! Seemed strange but then pretty normal ...  

But clearly there are other posts I have overlooked .

Actually it is quite clear what the topic was. I just wasn't paying close enough attention.


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2021)

basilio said:


> The question of why security was so poor around the Capitol was widely discussed.
> 
> Or course if  the then President hadn't been firing up his followers with a bunch of total lies about a stolen election for two months and then sent then off to the Capitol on a mission to intimidate Congress into not counting unfavourable electoral votes there wouldn't have been a riot would there ?
> 
> ...



Yeah sounds like a legit fact check:

_New York Times_, citing *unnamed* Defense Department officials, said it was Vice President Mike Pence, not Trump, who approved deployment of the D.C. National Guard that afternoon. The _Times_ also cited a “*person with knowledge* of the events”


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2021)

basilio said:


> Oops. My bad.  I was wondering why Moxjo seemed to be responding to my post by ignoring the riot and causes behind it and asking questions about the security ! Seemed strange but then pretty normal ...
> 
> But clearly there are other posts I have overlooked .
> 
> Actually it is quite clear what the topic was. I just wasn't paying close enough attention.



I can respond to both
I know how much you lot missed arguing with me.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> I can respond to both
> I know how much you lot missed arguing with me.




Sorry, I came here for an argument.


----------



## basilio (22 February 2021)

Back to Fake news .
The Fact Check website had the difficult decision of choosing the 10 biggest whoppers of 2020. Good story to remind us what was said around politics in  the US last year as well as  conspiracies around COVID.

Naturally Donald Trump smashed the field again. 

The Whoppers of 2020​ 
By Lori Robertson
Posted on December 18, 2020

Summary​For the sixth year in a row President Donald Trump has proved he is in a class of his own when it comes to political mendacity. His claims again make up the majority of our top 10 list of the most egregious falsehoods.

And in 2020, two of Trump’s whoppers may well be the most outrageous and damaging of his political career: his false attacks on the integrity of the election and his downplaying of the coronavirus pandemic.

Democratic President-elect Joe Biden also earned spots in our lineup for false claims about Trump’s handling of the COVID-19 outbreak and for wrongly, and repeatedly, saying he was “arrested” while trying to visit Nelson Mandela in South Africa.

Bogus information on COVID-19 dominated the viral misinformation landscape for much of the year. Among the worst of the worst: the “Plandemic” video, which gathered many such falsehoods into a grand conspiracy theory.

Read on for the full whoppers rundown, and for more information on the claims, see links to our prior stories on these falsehoods at the end.








						The Whoppers of 2020 - FactCheck.org
					

Our list of the 10 most egregious falsehoods of the year.




					www.factcheck.org


----------



## rederob (22 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> Often your posts only shows half the picture. Which is disinformation in itself. Presenting the facts from one side of the argument does not paint a true picture of the overall story.



I continually show your comments to be off topic, weak or baseless.  So yes, I present the other half of the picture - the part that links to credible sources and evidence.
And *NO*, the other "half of the picture" cannot be disinformation unless it is a misrepresentation or deliberate deceit, ie. something your posts have made into an artform.  
BTW, presenting facts is about offering information generally accepted as true, which is the exact opposite of your point.


----------



## moXJO (22 February 2021)

rederob said:


> I continually show your comments to be off topic, weak or baseless.  So yes, I present the other half of the picture - the part that links to credible sources and evidence.
> And *NO*, the other "half of the picture" cannot be disinformation unless it is a misrepresentation or deliberate deceit, ie. something your posts have made into an artform.
> BTW, presenting facts is about offering information generally accepted as true, which is the exact opposite of your point.



I'm saying the way you present it is in the style of disinformation. You push forth a narrative with selected "facts", while ignoring large parts of how it actually happened from the outset. 

So I am indeed on topic. You just don't like being the subject. 

 You are just trying the tried and true method of 'discrediting'.
Kind of like what happened to Trump the first few years.


----------



## rederob (22 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm saying the way you present it is in the style of disinformation. You push forth a narrative with selected "facts", while ignoring large parts of how it actually happened from the outset.
> 
> So I am indeed on topic. You just don't like being the subject.
> 
> ...



You are making unsubstantiated claims.
Try posting something worthy of debate.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (24 February 2021)

It seems to me that all news from the right or left is totally fake, following the opinions of a powerful few.

It is my belief that the conversation needs to be taken to a higher level, to that of always being ultimately on the winning side. Now you may question the latter half of that sentence.

1. Should one be on the winning side always.
2. What is meant by ultimately.

My argument would be that to not be on the winning side deprives oneself, one's dependants/friends and society of the social and economic power and benefits that comes from being a winner.

As to what ultimately means, it depends, as we all know as investors and traders on the time frame. 

It is quite obvious to me that all Western News and Politics is fake. I would not trust any politician or news outlet to tell the truth. It is all up to interpretation. 

All parties in the democratic West are beholden to factions and the party line. Again they, individually, are fake, as is their party line. All are open to change at the whiff of the possibility of losing or gaining power. 

Increasingly polls in the West ( which may be fake) are showing that a significant minority are not opposed to a centralised authoritarian government as exemplified by China, particularly in light of the spread or containment of Covid-19.

Thus, my point is that winners should be followed and dumped as soon as they appear to be losing, much as with stocks. This applies both to News and Politics.   

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2021)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It is quite obvious to me that all Western News and Politics is fake. I would not trust any politician or news outlet to tell the truth. It is all up to interpretation.




I think the penalty for outright lies that can be proved to be lies are high.

Politicians will lie if they think that they cannot be disproved.

Otherwise they will tell "their side" of the truth, but what they don't say is just as important. They will leave it to the other side to tell the other half of the truth.

Half truths and opinions are the politician's stock in trade.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (24 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the penalty for outright lies that can be proved to be lies are high.
> 
> Politicians will lie if they think that they cannot be disproved.
> 
> ...



I believe that many people waste their energy on arguing about News and Politics when the only people who profit from it are the owners and shareholders of news outlets and politicians. 

What can I profit from fake news and lying politicians is my point. 

We should not argue about facts but about the effect that spin and other lies has on us and how we can benefit from knowing about it. 

I'm not interested in the warm inner glow of being correct about how fake the news is from the left or the right. 

How can I profit is my point. 

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2021)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> We should not argue about facts but about the effect that spin and other lies has on us and how we can benefit from knowing about it.
> 
> I'm not interested in the warm inner glow of being correct about how fake the news is from the left or the right.
> 
> How can I profit is my point.




Interesting. Can you give some examples of how we can profit from "fake" news ?


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the penalty for outright lies that can be proved to be lies are high.



It's not though. Trump told whoppers. A lot was over exaggerating, but still.

We also had Biden and others in debate purposely lie. The "Very fine people" is a very selective one that was used.

I think lying is being used more than ever to get results. And everything would have run through test groups or carefully crafted to get the message through with maximum results.

Nothing's accidental.

On top of that we get media messaging, special interest groups, paid messaging, astroturfing, social media manipulation, etc.

Best off tuning out because you won't get the full story.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> It's not though. Trump told whoppers. A lot was over exaggerating, but still.




Yes, and he got thrown out.


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, and he got thrown out




Barely. If covid didn't come along he'd still be there.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (24 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting. Can you give some examples of how we can profit from "fake" news ?



No. 

It's the vibe.

I don't believe you will ever get it. It's a metacognitive approach. This is alien to what everyone else who profits nothing from warbling on about fake news fails to get. 

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2021)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> No.
> 
> It's the vibe.
> 
> ...




Plenty of metacognitive things are also fake. Better off sicking a pin on a dartboard.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (24 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Plenty of metacognitive things are also fake. Better off sicking a pin on a dartboard.



"Things" by definition are not cognitive. 

I'm quite sorry I entered this thread. Cheerio. On with the warbling.

gg


----------



## rederob (24 February 2021)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> It seems to me that all news from the right or left is totally fake, following the opinions of a powerful few.
> 
> It is my belief that the conversation needs to be taken to a higher level, to that of always being ultimately on the winning side.
> ....
> ...



Winners are not always what they seem, whether it's a sprint:





or over the long haul:





Even when you are sure you have backed a winner, before or after your pick has crossed the line, you might be mistaken.

As much as I enjoyed your contribution, it relies on a flawed premise from the outset: when you enter a trade you do *not *know what the next price movement will be.


----------



## basilio (11 March 2021)

This is a really thought provoking story on how quickly and widely a single post has been spread across the web through Facebook.
The item in question was posted by MP Craig Kelly on his Facebook page. It was a post  claiming ivermectin “beats all the experimental vaccines for efficacy in preventing Covid infections” by incorrectly comparing a series of minor studies to vaccine effectiveness data.

Check out how it went around the world.  Some other examples as well.









						Anatomy of a conspiracy theory: how misinformation travels on Facebook
					

Facebook has played a key role in the global spread of misinformation during the pandemic. Here’s how an individual post can reach a global audience within days




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (12 March 2021)

So when was the last time you saw  Chairman Mao  or Kim Jong-Un do an excellent rendition of "I will survive " ?
How about the whole fed doing a synchronized karaoke ?

AI is just forging ahead.









						Move over, Deep Nostalgia, this AI app can make Kim Jong-un sing I Will Survive
					

Wombo AI can animate any face to sing songs in a way that is unbelievable enough to help the fight against deepfakes, say some experts




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Lip-syncing app Wombo shows the messy, meme-laden potential of deepfakes
					

Wombo combo.




					www.theverge.com


----------



## moXJO (13 March 2021)

basilio said:


> So when was the last time you saw  Chairman Mao  or Kim Jong-Un do an excellent rendition of "I will survive " ?
> How about the whole fed doing a synchronized karaoke ?
> 
> AI is just forging ahead.
> ...



Amazing app for a cheap deep fake. 
Joe approves:





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## moXJO (13 March 2021)

Wait wait
Christian porter:





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## basilio (18 March 2021)

Get your teeth into this.
Pure brilliance.

*The Shocking Link Between Sultanas And Car Crashes        
*Last year 1,106 people died on Australian roads. So why are you still feeding your child sultanas?

The evidence linking toddler sultana consumption and car crashes later in life is overwhelming. A now-famous 2008 paper by Dr Rupert Horowitz found that of all car crash victims, 79% had eaten sultanas as a child. And it’s getting worse. A more recent study suggests the percentage may now be above 88%.

Yet over the past forty years Big Sultana has lined its pockets with billions of dollars in profits, cashing in on the naivety of Western parents and spurred along by a reckless media









						The Shocking Link Between Sultanas And Car Crashes
					

Did you know 88% of people involved in car accidents ate sultanas as children? The evidence is overwhelming and Big Sultana has done nothing to stop it. Time to ban sultanas. Read the full article here.




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## basilio (19 March 2021)

Even better story on Fake News.  Well worth a read IMO.









						Scientists used 'fake news' to stop predators killing endangered birds — and the result was remarkable
					

When scientists first thought to deceive predators with bird smells, the idea seemed crazy. But after seeing how fake news messes with the minds of both humans and animals, it now makes sense.




					theconversation.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 March 2021)

basilio said:


> Get your teeth into this.
> Pure brilliance.
> 
> *The Shocking Link Between Sultanas And Car Crashes*



The sad thing is, may would read that and not grasp that it's not actual news.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The sad thing is, may would read that and not grasp that it's not actual news.




 I don't think it's fake.

Sultanas as we know are a laxative.

Over consumption could cause drivers to have a sudden urge to use the loo, resulting in an increase in speed to get to a convenience, resulting in a higher risk of accidents.

An increased urge to pass (other drivers) would also be a risk factor.


----------



## bellenuit (29 April 2021)

New York Post Reporter Who Wrote False Kamala Harris Story Resigns (Published 2021)
					

The front-page article in the Murdoch tabloid claimed that copies of a children’s book by the vice president were given to migrant children as part of a “welcome kit.”




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## basilio (29 April 2021)

bellenuit said:


> New York Post Reporter Who Wrote False Kamala Harris Story Resigns (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> The front-page article in the Murdoch tabloid claimed that copies of a children’s book by the vice president were given to migrant children as part of a “welcome kit.”
> ...




I read this story on The Guardian.  It seems the reporter was directed to write the untrue story (basically to trash Kamala Harris) and then ...

_“Today I handed in my resignation to my editors at the New York Post,” she said. “The Kamala Harris story – an incorrect story I was ordered to write and which I failed to push back hard enough against – was my breaking point.”_









						New York Post reporter quits citing pressure to write incorrect story about Kamala Harris
					

Laura Italiano claimed she was forced to write a report about migrant children being given a copy of the VP’s book as part of a welcome kit




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (1 May 2021)

basilio said:


> I read this story on The Guardian.  It seems the reporter was directed to write the untrue story (basically to trash Kamala Harris) and then ...
> 
> _“Today I handed in my resignation to my editors at the New York Post,” she said. “The Kamala Harris story – an incorrect story I was ordered to write and which I failed to push back hard enough against – was my breaking point.”_
> 
> ...




What really stinks about this story is that the reporter who was directed to write up a dishonest story ended up losing her job.
But clearly the management team that gave her the order are still free to force the next reporter to finish the task..

Just.No. Justice


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (2 May 2021)

basilio said:


> What really stinks about this story is that the reporter who was directed to write up a dishonest story ended up losing her job.
> But clearly the management team that gave her the order are still free to force the next reporter to finish the task..
> 
> Just.No. Justice



Do not expect justice where might is right. Plato

gg


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2021)

basilio said:


> What really stinks about this story is that the reporter who was directed to write up a dishonest story ended up losing her job.
> But clearly the management team that gave her the order are still free to force the next reporter to finish the task..
> 
> Just.No. Justice



One would think that if as you say, the reporter was only carrying out orders as a servant of the company, that would be very strong grounds for civil prosecution and compensation.
A worker can be sacked for refusing a reasonable request, or not carrying out a reasonable request, but to sacked for carrying out a request sounds illegal to me and grounds for civil action and compensation.
So IMO someone is not telling the whole truth, either the article, the reporter, or ghe company.
Just my take on what has been posted.


----------



## rederob (2 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> One would think that if as you say, the reporter was only carrying out orders as a servant of the company, that would be very strong grounds for civil prosecution and compensation.
> A worker can be sacked for refusing a reasonable request, or not carrying out a reasonable request, but to sacked for carrying out a request sounds illegal to me and grounds for civil action and compensation.
> So IMO someone is not telling the whole truth, either the article, the reporter, or ghe company.
> Just my take on what has been posted.



Maybe there is an option you missed?
_“Today I handed in my *resignation*."_


----------



## bellenuit (2 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> One would think that if as you say, the reporter was only carrying out orders as a servant of the company, that would be very strong grounds for civil prosecution and compensation.
> A worker can be sacked for refusing a reasonable request, or not carrying out a reasonable request, but to sacked for carrying out a request sounds illegal to me and grounds for civil action and compensation.
> So IMO someone is not telling the whole truth, either the article, the reporter, or ghe company.
> Just my take on what has been posted.




The reporter resigned.









						New York Post Reporter Who Wrote False Kamala Harris Story Resigns (Published 2021)
					

The front-page article in the Murdoch tabloid claimed that copies of a children’s book by the vice president were given to migrant children as part of a “welcome kit.”




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Maybe there is an option you missed?
> _“Today I handed in my *resignation*."_



My apologies, I was on the phone so couldn't read the article, only what Bas posted.
Which sounded like unfair dismissal, even if the person resigned and can show they only performed the action under duress from their employer, it would be grounds for civil action.
Otherwise it kind of falls under the umbrella of well he said, she said, I said, but honest it wasn't me.
That is why these days anyone with any brains at all if they aren't happy with the request, sends an email to their superior raising their concerns and clarification as to the task they are requested to do, then they at least have a paper trail to show their innocence.
Well that is what i did back in 1987, when I was told to do something I wasn't happy with, obviously todays people just have to say "it wasn't me"?
Who knows.


----------



## basilio (14 June 2021)

*The  insanity of Q Anon. *

4 Corners is running its program on the friendship between The Prime Minister and a man who is absolutely  committed to the Q Anon conspiracy.  This persons views and actions have been considered so extreme his family have reported him to the National Security hotline.

_Tim Stewart believes 'evil people' are trying to harvest children's blood_​_Tim Stewart's blog, Sideways Step, lays out a central thesis of the QAnon conspiracy theory - that a group of leftist elites are running a paedophile ring designed to harvest children's blood.

"The true nature of these crimes shows that humans are being treated as a commodity and human energy is being harvested without permission," Mr Stewart writes.

"Furthermore, it is focused on children, who are more innocent and unaware ...

"Why do evil people wish to rob a young child of their virginity? ... Why do they drink blood? Why do they need to sacrifice humans?"






_
_Lynelle Stewart and husband Tim Stewart in 2018.(

Facebook

Tim's family says he told them he could talk to cockroaches and that both former American first lady Michelle Obama and New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern were actually men.

"They believe there's a spiritual warfare being waged and that they have knowledge of this and so that they're on a crusade to win to make sure that the Satanists are overthrown," Karen says.

Four Corners has learned that Australia's top spy chief, ASIO Director-General Mike Burgess, has also been made aware of the concerns about Tim Stewart.

*Watch the full investigation on Four Corners tonight at 8:30pm on ABC TV or livestream on the Four Corners Facebook page.









						He's an old friend of the PM. But his parents and sister fear he is a potential national security risk
					

Tim Stewart's family watched with alarm as he descended into bizarre political conspiracy theories. They tell Four Corners of their concerns about his extreme beliefs and his relationship with the Prime Minister.




					www.abc.net.au
				



*_


----------



## basilio (14 June 2021)

Part of the Tim Stewart manifesto


----------



## Knobby22 (24 June 2021)

Great show tonight on the ABC showing the latest deep fake technology and the scary future. Worth watching on iview.
Deep fake Biden declaring war on Nth Korea for instance.
There is a way forward though.

Worth watching.


----------



## wayneL (24 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Deep fake Biden




Hmmm the mind boggles


----------



## IFocus (25 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Great show tonight on the ABC showing the latest deep fake technology and the scary future. Worth watching on iview.
> Deep fake Biden declaring war on Nth Korea for instance.
> There is a way forward though.
> 
> Worth watching.





Yeah watched it, not surprised at the development but scary how easy and accessible it is and to do it could go anywhere.


----------



## orr (25 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> Yeah watched it, not surprised at the development but scary how easy and accessible it is and to do it could go anywhere.



I'm about to watch this,; I heard the promo on radio yesterday. 
The thought that came to me over the last day was the intergration of blockchain as a base line of defence. If it can be done for money? Is there an insurance line for history in this?  ... And if that is the case, for a market; 
What's the value of verifiable information???(incert your own bolds)

Sure a lie is twice around the world before the truth gets is pants on....
  It's the re-wrighting of history,  the Orwellion 'he who controlls the present controls the past... etc etc'  that allows error to flurish and be ingrained; But, only if  the 'truth'(or the best readings of it) ain't out there. 
I'm about to find out how this possibility or any alternative is postulated  by heads with far greater resources than mine at the ABC.... or are they going to 'save us' in the next installment...


----------



## bellenuit (25 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Great show tonight on the ABC showing the latest deep fake technology and the scary future. Worth watching on iview.
> Deep fake Biden declaring war on Nth Korea for instance.
> There is a way forward though.
> 
> Worth watching.




What's it called?


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2021)

How do you watch iview?


----------



## IFocus (25 June 2021)

Try this https://www.abc.net.au/foreign/american-deepfake/13418096


----------



## basilio (27 June 2021)

*                                        He's back !!!  *
Roll up Roll up . The worlds greatest showman, con man and consummate liar is on the road again.

_For all the high spirits, attendees’ T-shirts held an inverted mirror up to reality: “Trump won, deal with it”; “Re-elect Trump. Make liberals cry again”; “Don’t blame me, I voted for Trump”; “Trump 2024. Make votes count again”; “**** Biden. Trump 2024”; “Biden is not my president”; *“Unmasked, unmuzzled, unvaccinated, unafraid”.

Everyone interviewed by the Guardian took it for granted that last year’s election was stolen from Trump, and some even clung to the belief that he will somehow be reinstated. *As for the 6 January insurrection at the US Capitol, the only disagreement was whether it was true patriots fighting for a just cause or an infiltration by Antifa and Black Lives Matter (there is zero evidence of this)._









						‘He’s not a quitter’: faithful out in force as Trump gets back to the campaign trail
					

Thousands of adoring fans turned out in Ohio to remind America that Trump’s cult of personality never went away




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

FYI


----------



## bellenuit (24 July 2021)

He pushed it on the butt.


----------



## basilio (29 July 2021)

Maybe we just need to see the correct photo - and choose honest reporters for our news.​..............................................................................................................................................................​Protester accused of punching police horse refusing COVID test in jail, court told​By Cecilia Connell
Posted 38m ago38 minutes ago, updated 35m ago35 minutes ago





 Photographers snapped Kristian Pulkownik at Saturday's anti-lockdown protest.(
AFP: Steven Saphore
)
Share


A man accused of punching a police horse during Sydney's anti-lockdown protest will remain behind bars after a court heard he was refusing to take a COVID-19 test in prison.
Key points:​
Kristian Pulkownik remains in custody at Parklea Correctional Centre
His legal team claims access to him has been restricted
Mr Pulkownik is being kept in isolation in prison
Kristian Pulkownik was set to appear via video link at Central Local Court this morning charged with four offences, including animal cruelty, unlawful assembly and affray.
But magistrate Mark Richardson told the court Mr Pulkownik couldn't be brought from his cell as he had refused to undergo a COVID-19 test since his arrest at Saturday's protest.









						Alleged horse puncher isolated in prison after refusing COVID test, court told
					

A man accused of punching a police horse during Saturday's anti-lockdown protest in Sydney will remain behind bars after a court hears he is refusing a COVID-19 test in prison.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (29 July 2021)

More a shove then a punch.


----------



## basilio (29 July 2021)

Now if we are  looking for REAL fake news you can't go past Alan Jones. Apparently even too much for teh Daily Telegraph to stomach.

Alan Jones column ended by Daily Telegraph amid controversial Covid and anti-lockdown commentary​Veteran broadcaster rejects claims he ‘no longer resonates with readers’

_.... Jones’s final Telegraph column last week criticised Australia’s response to Covid-19, which he argues is no worse than the flu for healthy people.

On Monday on Sky News, Jones launched an attack on Chant, calling her “dumb” and “out of touch”. “How many villages are missing their idiot?” he said.

The former 2GB broadcaster also defended the Sydney protesters, and in reference to a 38-year-old woman who died in Sydney on Sunday, Jones said it was “highly unlikely” she died of Covid-19.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...as-ray-hadley-calls-out-ridiculous-alan-jones
He said there was no way to tell if the authorities were telling the truth because “there was no autopsy”. He said doctors told him she probably died of a heart attack or a stroke._









						Alan Jones column ended by Daily Telegraph amid controversial Covid and anti-lockdown commentary
					

Veteran broadcaster rejects claims he ‘no longer resonates with readers’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (29 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Now if we are  looking for REAL fake news you can't go past Alan Jones. Apparently even too much for teh Daily Telegraph to stomach.
> 
> Alan Jones column ended by Daily Telegraph amid controversial Covid and anti-lockdown commentary​Veteran broadcaster rejects claims he ‘no longer resonates with readers’
> 
> ...



Just a point baz, real news is cancelled.

Fake news (eg the horse punch) is du rigeur.


----------



## IFocus (29 July 2021)

Would that be the Alan Jones broadcasting from his isolated zillion dollar luxury complex?

Alan had the vax like Murdoch yet?


----------



## basilio (2 August 2021)

This is priceless. Trumps new "Free Speech" social network now attracts  ISIS and extremist content.

Well worth checking out IMV.

Pro-Trump social network becomes safe haven for ISIS​GETTR, the new platform started by members of the former president’s inner circle, is awash with beheading videos and extremist content.









						Jihadists flood pro-Trump social network with propaganda
					

GETTR, the new platform started by members of the former president’s inner circle, is awash with beheading videos and extremist content.




					www.politico.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Now if we are  looking for REAL fake news you can't go past Alan Jones. Apparently even too much for teh Daily Telegraph to stomach.
> 
> Alan Jones column ended by Daily Telegraph amid controversial Covid and anti-lockdown commentary​Veteran broadcaster rejects claims he ‘no longer resonates with readers’
> 
> ...



I thought Murdoch News was all for anti Vax?
Haven't read the story just reading the posts on here.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 February 2022)

Did anyone else see the photograph below that is being pushed around the various news services?





It is supposed to be the result of a mortar attack by pro Russian forces on aUkrain Kindergarden.
In the OZ, they are pushing the idea that Russia will make a fake video of attacks on Russia by pro Ukraine forces that will give them the pretext to invade Ukraine, a so called false flag  trick.
And yet when you look at the above picture, the first thing that screams fake to me is that an explosion capable of punching a hole in a brick wall about a metre thick did not blow out either of the two light fittings on the roof, or blow out the glass adjacent to it.
And they reckon the ruskies are planning false flag events?
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> How do you watch iview?







__





						ABC iview
					

Watch all your favourite ABC programs on ABC iview. The best of ABC dramas, documentaries, comedies and ABC News programs for Australia's most trusted source of local, national and world news.




					iview.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (18 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Did anyone else see the photograph below that is being pushed around the various news services?
> 
> View attachment 137701
> 
> ...



Obviously fake. Who published this?


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for that Rumpole, wish I had known about it a couple of months ago, the wife bought all 8 series of Vera on DVD and it is sitting there on iview,


----------



## mullokintyre (18 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Obviously fake. Who published this?



Don't know who first put it out, but I have seen it on ABC News TheAustralian  Rueters as well as  The Guardian
Surely the genius journalists can see the obvious fake? Don't they do any investigations any more?
Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (18 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Don't know who first put it out, but I have seen it on ABC News TheAustralian  Rueters as well as  The Guardian
> Surely the genius journalists can see the obvious fake? Don't they do any investigations any more?
> Mick



Here's an actual video of the incident from SBS.








						'We'll see terrible scenes': Peter Dutton's Ukraine invasion warning as kindergarten shelled
					

US intelligence agencies say an assault on Ukraine could be ordered within days, despite Russia's claims that it is withdrawing troops from the border.




					www.sbs.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (18 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Here's an actual video of the incident from SBS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its a video of the wall after the event, but I have great doubts that the event was a mortar shell.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (11 March 2022)

Jussie Smollet gets 150 days in Jail and 30 months probation.

At least some fake news gets punished. Just not if you're a politician.


----------



## basilio (8 April 2022)

One less place to look for Climate Deniers and their ilk.

*Pinterest announces ban on all climate misinformation*​Image-focused social network says it will take down content that distorts or denies facts of climate crisis




‘Pinterest believes in cultivating a space that’s trusted and truthful for those using our platform,’ said the company’s head of policy.  Photograph: Dado Ruvić/Reuters

Alex Hern

@alexhern
Wed 6 Apr 2022 14.30 BSTLast modified on Wed 6 Apr 2022 14.31 BST


Pinterest is to block all climate misinformation, as the image-focused social network seeks to limit the spread of false and misleading claims.
Under the new policy the site is committing to take down content that distorts or denies the facts of the climate crisis, whether posted as adverts or normal “organic” content.

Pinterest is defining misinformation broadly: the company will take down content that denies the existence or effects of climate change or its human causes, as well as content that “misrepresents scientific data” in order to erode trust in climate science and harmful, false or misleading content about natural disasters and extreme weather events.



https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/20/paypal-pinterest-takeover-technology-report
“Pinterest believes in cultivating a space that’s trusted and truthful for those using our platform,” said Sarah Bromma, the company’s head of policy. “This bold move is an expansion of our broader misinformation guidelines, which we first developed in 2017 to address public health misinformation, and have since updated to address new and emerging issues as they come to the forefront. The expanded climate misinformation policy is yet another step in Pinterest’s journey to combat misinformation and create a safe space online.”









						Pinterest announces ban on all climate misinformation
					

Image-focused social network says it will take down content that distorts or denies facts of climate crisis




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (16 April 2022)

I thought this story was  pretty out there is terms of challenging the insanity of conspiracy ideology. IMV well worth the full read.

‘The lunacy is getting more intense’: how Birds Aren’t Real took on the conspiracy theorists​Zoe Williams




‘It’s not like I sat down and thought I’m going to make a satire’ … Peter McIndoe pictured at Los Angeles county arboretum and botanic garden. Photograph: Daniel Gonçalves/the Guardian
On a march, Peter McIndoe held up a sign and talked about how the ‘deep state’ had replaced all birds with drones. It was meant as a small act of satire but has become a mass movement






@zoesqwilliams
Thu 14 Apr 2022 06.00 BST


In early 2017, Peter McIndoe, now 23, was studying psychology at the University of Arkansas, and visiting friends in Memphis, Tennessee. He tells me this over Zoom from the US west coast, and has the most arresting face – wide-eyed, curious and intense, like the lead singer of an indie band, or a young monk. “This was right after the Donald Trump election, and things were really tense. I remember people walking around saying they felt as if they were in a movie. Things felt so unstable.”

It was the weekend of simultaneous Women’s Marches across the US (indeed, the world), and McIndoe looked out of the window and noticed “counterprotesters, who were older, bigger white men. They were clear aggravators. They were encroaching on something that was not their event, they had no business being there.” Added to that, “it felt like chaos, because the world felt like chaos”.

McIndoe made a placard, and went out to join the march. “It’s not like I sat down and thought I’m going to make a satire. I just thought: ‘I should write a sign that has nothing to do with what is going on.’ An absurdist statement to bring to the equation.”

That statement was “birds aren’t real”. As he stood with the counterprotesters, and they asked what his sign meant, he improvised. He said he was part of a movement that had been around for 50 years, and was originally started to save American birds, but had failed. The “deep state” had destroyed them all, and replaced them with surveillance drones. Every bird you see is actually a tiny feathered robot watching you.




The movement has enough satirical flags that generation Z recognises immediately what is going on. Photograph: Madeline Houston/courtesy of Birds Aren’t Real

Someone was filming him and put it on Facebook; it went viral, and Memphis is still the centre of the Birds Aren’t Real movement. Or is it a movement? You could call it a situationist spectacle, a piece of rolling performance art or a collective satire. MSNBC called it a “mass coping mechanism” for generation Z, and as it has hundreds of thousands of followers on social media, “mass”, at least, is on the money.

It’s the most perfect, playful distillation of where we are in relation to the media landscape we’ve built but can’t control, and which only half of us can find our way around. It’s a made-up conspiracy theory that is just realistic enough, as conspiracies go, to convince QAnon supporters that birds _aren’t _real, but has just enough satirical flags that generation Z recognises immediately what is going on. It’s a conspiracy-within-a-conspiracy, a little aneurysm of reality and mockery in the bloodstream of the mad pizzagate-style theories that animate the “alt-right”.









						‘The lunacy is getting more intense’: how Birds Aren’t Real took on the conspiracy theorists
					

On a march, Peter McIndoe held up a sign and talked about how the ‘deep state’ had replaced all birds with drones. It was meant as a small act of satire but has become a mass movement




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (16 April 2022)

basilio said:


> I thought this story was  pretty out there is terms of challenging the insanity of conspiracy ideology. IMV well worth the full read.
> 
> ‘The lunacy is getting more intense’: how Birds Aren’t Real took on the conspiracy theorists​Zoe Williams
> View attachment 140492
> ...



It's not it's not a lot different to the trope that everyone is either an alphabet soupers, or a Nazi.

I think it's high time that everybody stops categorising those on the absolute extremes, as representative of everybody on that side of the spectrum.

"They" are intentionally dividing us and if only we could have reasonable conversations without reference to the lunatics, we would probably find that none of us are really that far away from each other.

It's our choice we... All of us, need to wake up and see what is being done to us.


----------



## rederob (16 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's our choice we... All of us, need to wake up and see what is being done to us.



It's your choice to believe or not, whatever it is that's in question.
There is a wealth of information available to confirm or otherwise, or "fact check," what's thrown up.
Despite this, there remains the usual doubters that cling to absolute nonsense.  For example, here at ASF there are still some who do not understand the role of CO2 wrt to climate change, and proclaim ideas that have been so many times debunked it gets tiresome.
But Trump did win the election!
Sadly for @DB008 it was just the one - in 2016.


----------



## rederob (19 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Just a point baz, real news is cancelled.
> 
> Fake news (eg the horse punch) is du rigeur.



A punch is usually from a closed fist and the victim usually has a visible sudden reaction when it's to the head, as shown below:





The irony is that @wayneL works with horses and I doubt he would ever think that was appropriate to use a clenched fist on a horse.
Everyone knows a push is usually from an open hand.

Onto fake news proper:


----------



## cynic (19 April 2022)

Possibly not quite the right thread for this posting, given that the content appears to closely align with reality, but, would anyone care to guess, the source of the underquoted statement/admission?

"(Modelling can tell you anything you want - it all depends on the input)"


----------



## mullokintyre (19 April 2022)

cynic said:


> Possibly not quite the right thread for this posting, given that the content appears to closely align with reality, but, would anyone care to guess, the source of the underquoted statement/admission?
> 
> "(Modelling can tell you anything you want - it all depends on the input)"



Yogi Berra??
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2022)

cynic said:


> Possibly not quite the right thread for this posting, given that the content appears to closely align with reality, but, would anyone care to guess, the source of the underquoted statement/admission?
> 
> "(Modelling can tell you anything you want - it all depends on the input)"



So true cynic, same as polls, a different outcome can be determined by the way the questions are phrased.


----------



## cynic (19 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yogi Berra??
> Mick



https://www.theguardian.com/austral...086dda4ef5f3d4#block-625de73f8f086dda4ef5f3d4


----------



## wayneL (19 April 2022)

rederob said:


> A punch is usually from a closed fist and the victim usually has a visible sudden reaction when it's to the head, as shown below:
> View attachment 140548
> 
> The irony is that @wayneL works with horses and I doubt he would ever think that was appropriate to use a clenched fist on a horse.
> ...



Watch the video Red.


----------



## rederob (19 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Watch the video Red.



Given the video shows what the photo shows, what is your point?
The bottom jaw of the horse clearly shows contact was made!


----------



## cynic (19 April 2022)

The photo captures little more than a moment in time(one which appears to have been disengenuously cherry picked).

Whilst I understand how a casual observer might easily misinterpret the image shown - a more careful examination reveals that the man's hand was only partially closed at that point in time (definitely not closed/clenched into a fist!!).

Fortunately there exists, video footage ,shedding just a little more light, on what was really happening at that time.

https://caldronpool.com/watch-police-accused-of-fake-news-after-video-emerges-of-man-punching-horse/


----------



## wayneL (19 April 2022)

cynic said:


> The photo captures little more than a moment in time(one which appears to have been disengenuously cherry picked).
> 
> Whilst I understand how a casual observer might easily misinterpret the image shown - a more careful examination reveals that the man's hand was only partially closed at that point in time (definitely not closed/clenched into a fist!!).
> 
> ...



Red sees what he wants to see not what is there in front of his eyes.


----------



## cynic (19 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Red sees what he wants to see not what is there in front of his eyes.



'tis a common failing, prevalent throughout our society. So much so, that one might consider it a trait that is intrinsic to the human condition.

Indeed it is not the ones arrogantly claiming infallibility/perfection who earn my respect, but they, who, on some occasions, come to recognise and acknowledge their mistakes! (Those belonging to the former, in their hubris, typically fail to recognise that they are repeatedly displaying personal insecurities to those in the latter.)

Anyhow, I've drifted off topic, so if anyone has objection to this post, I am more than happy for it to be moved to a more fitting thread.


----------



## rederob (19 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Red sees what he wants to see not what is there in front of his eyes.



police prosecuted based on evidence.
I clenched fist striking another surface is called a punch, and you are simply choosing to ignore the obvious.


cynic said:


> The photo captures little more than a moment in time(one which appears to have been disengenuously cherry picked).



There are separate videos of the incident, so nothing was cherrypicked.


cynic said:


> Whilst I understand how a casual observer might easily misinterpret the image shown - a more careful examination reveals that the man's hand was only partially closed at that point in time (definitely not closed/clenched into a fist!!).



You are an inept judge of what occurred.
Mr "Free Speech" retained clenched fists for some duration before and after the incident, and for a supposed animal lover, striking at a horse with a clench fist is just not on.  If he was genuinely concerned for his safety then...
Mr Free Speech had many opportunities to move away from the police horses when everyone else did, but instead he chose to stand his ground.  It's also a blatant lie that the horse was about to trample him.  In fact horses are adept at not trampling on people!


cynic said:


> Fortunately there exists, video footage ,shedding just a little more light, on what was really happening at that time.



There are a number of videos and quite a few photos.

Looks like we cannot counter people who believe in fake news because they simply don't accept evidence.


----------



## cynic (19 April 2022)

rederob said:


> ....
> There are a number of videos and quite a few photos.
> ....



Okay then!! Let's view them!!!


----------



## rederob (19 April 2022)

cynic said:


> Okay then!! Let's view them!!!



Talk to the police if you are so concerned that there is better evidence and the man did not do what everyone saw happen.
I will play with the grand children as they seem smarter than you.


----------



## cynic (19 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Talk to the police if you are so concerned that there is better evidence and the man did not do what everyone saw happen.
> I will play with the grand children as they seem smarter than you.



Yes!! Just like yourself, my puppy dog ate the homework also. But not to worry, because, again like yourself, I can assure you that the cheque's already in the mail!!


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> I think it's high time that everybody stops categorising those on the absolute extremes, as representative of everybody on that side of the spectrum.



Indeed.

There are plenty of reasonable ideas from both ends of the ideological spectrum if the extremists are left out.


----------



## wayneL (20 April 2022)

Okay here is the MSM report... if we ignore the narrative and study the footage, that was no punch.

Or... it was the whimpiest punch 
ever recorded in the last 500 years. I reckon even rederob could do better.

Actually nah, pretty clear it was a push away to protect his own face


----------



## rederob (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Okay here is the MSM report... if we ignore the narrative and study the footage, that was no punch.
> 
> Or... it was the whimpiest punch
> ever recorded in the last 500 years. I reckon even rederob could do better.
> ...




Accidentally shooting someone is still a shooting.
As I have said, despite evidence it was a "punch" you want to downgrade it because you believe it was self defence or some BS.  Self defence is not a protection when a person is where they were not allowed to be, *and *ordered immediately beforehand to disperse.
The moron compounded his error by also striking the horse with his right hand a moment later.  As anyone can see from the overhead footage, Mr Free Speech chose to stand his ground rather than move away, and in doing so had cause to strike the horse only if he did not move, so after throwing his left he then struck "Tobruk" again with his right hand:
	

		
			
		

		
	





Here's what an instinctive action looks like in a similar circumstance:


----------



## wayneL (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Red sees what he wants to see not what is there in front of his eyes.



Like I said...


----------



## rederob (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Like I said...



Take it up with the police who prosecuted the idiot protester and who were physically present.
It is you who is in denial of what happened, and it's why there are so many gullible to believe what they prefer rather than what is apparent.
Your ilk are the fertile ground of fake news proliferation, and you - personally - were equally poor with the obvious over a decade ago when you scoffed at the evidence of climate change.


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## wayneL (20 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Take it up with the police who prosecuted the idiot protester and who were physically present.
> It is you who is in denial of what happened, and it's why there are so many gullible to believe what they prefer rather than what is apparent.
> Your ilk are the fertile ground of fake news proliferation, and you - personally - were equally poor with the obvious over a decade ago when you scoffed at the evidence of climate change.



Yes the police acted with absolute integrity and honour throughout the whole covid lockdown, arresting pregnant soccer mums and pepper spraying old ladies lying injured on the ground.


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## moXJO (20 April 2022)

It's not a closed fist. It could be termed a "strike" I suppose. I'm sure video was posted confirming it was in fact a push. Which is warranted considering you have a large animal being directed at you.

The guy was charged with various things. I'm not sure anything to do with the horse was one of them?
Perhaps the affray charge. It was supposed to go to court last month, what happened?


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## rederob (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Yes the police acted with absolute integrity and honour throughout the whole covid lockdown, arresting pregnant soccer mums and pepper spraying old ladies lying injured on the ground.



Is this your comedy routine now?
The moron was not supposed to be where he was ultimately arrested.
Moreover, you, as a person with decades of experience around horses would know that if horses (the plural) with riders who are attempting to move you along, do not stand your ground without consequences.  And the last thing you do if you are silly enough to attempt that, is used a clenched fist instead of a palm to *sway *the horse away.
Your responses are certainly laughable!


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## rederob (20 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> It's not a closed fist.



Picture of "not a closed fist":





Thumb over the index finger and other fingers bent  in towards the palm!
Horse felt nothing and was clearly laughing it off, above.


moXJO said:


> It could be termed a "strike" I suppose. I'm sure video was posted confirming it was in fact a push.



No, Mr Free Speech actually struck the horse 3 times, had no right to be where he was, and refused to move along, being in fact one of the few who did so.


moXJO said:


> Which is warranted considering you have a large animal being directed at you.



He disobeyed a public health order to attend a protest rally, refused to move along/disperse, and even after being jailed he refused to be swabbed for covid on an excuse that would make @cynic proud.


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## wayneL (20 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Is this your comedy routine now?
> The moron was not supposed to be where he was ultimately arrested.
> Moreover, you, as a person with decades of experience around horses would know that if horses (the plural) with riders who are attempting to move you along, do not stand your ground without consequences.  And the last thing you do if you are silly enough to attempt that, is used a clenched fist instead of a palm to *sway *the horse away.
> Your responses are certainly laughable!



I make no comment about the rest of his actions, certainly not what I would do and make no excuses for him.

But not a well known fact, I am a black belt in Goju Ryu (though have not trained for many years). I know what a strike is and I know what a parry is. I also know the mechanics the human body is in situations with regards to the wrist and hands, and how to observe speed and tension in agonist and antagonist muscle groups.

My observation is that he connected with the horse with the padded edge of his 5th metacarpal, ie the heel of his hand, rather than the metacarpophalangeal joints, ie his knuckles.

A defensive move, an obvious parry.

If he was arrested for is other actions at the protest, fair play. But the charge of animal cruelty, vis a vis punching the horse in the face, is absolutely bogus.

And seeing as that my decades of horsemanship is being invoked here (including with some pretty comprehensive experience with the Mounties), then perhaps the mounted policeman should be charged for animal cruelty with regards to his excessive use of the spur and bit.


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## wayneL (20 April 2022)

By the way, by way of another little known fact and useless trivia, I used to own an ex police horse which I competed in show jumping for many years.

I ended up with him because he did not make it through the training program, and was profoundly traumatised by what they did to him.

I know what they did to him because I have a very good friend who was in the Mounties at the time and told me what happened. (He actually left the mounties because he couldn't stand the cruelty that he witnessed... Became a remedial horse trainer).

So let's not get too carried away with bulshit about animal cruelty rederob, you have no idea what you're talking about.


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## rederob (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Observation is that I'm on connected with the horse with the padded edge of his 5th metacarpal, ie the heel of his hand, rather than the metacarpophalangeal joints, ie his knuckles.
> 
> A defensive move.



Keep up the comedy routine - he stood his ground and used a clenched fist against the horse. 
Perhaps this is a valid defence: Officer, I know it was a gun pointed at you, but it was not loaded at the time!



wayneL said:


> But the charge of animal cruelty, vis a vis punching the horse in the face, is absolutely bogus.



How about this then; I was just checking his age:




Ah yes, the evidence in multiple commercial and social media shows a law abiding citizen who loves animals visiting his favourite horse for another chat!
Laughable!


wayneL said:


> And seeing as that my decades of horsemanship is being invoked here (including with some pretty comprehensive experience with the Mounties), then perhaps the mounted policeman should be charged for animal cruelty with regards to his excessive use of the spur and bit.



Your diversionary skills are excellent.


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## wayneL (20 April 2022)

In rederob's close-up we can actually observe that there is more trauma being infected on the horses face by the use of the bit than by  the man's parry.

Wanna go down that road? We can talk about bits/bridles, morphology and physiology of horses mouth and facial nerves...

...if you like?


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## rederob (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> So let's not get too carried away with bulshit about animal cruelty rederob, you have no idea what you're talking about.



I apologise @wayneL - there I was thinking it was Sydney, and now it appears Tobruk was being ridden by the Mounties somewhere in Canada.
So pleased you cleared up the fake news.


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## rederob (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> In rederob's close-up we can actually observe that there is more trauma being infected on the horses face by the use of the bit than by  the man's parry.
> 
> Wanna go down that road? We can talk about bits/bridles, morphology and physiology of horses mouth and facial nerves...
> 
> ...if you like?



What about China?


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## wayneL (20 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Keep up the comedy routine - he stood his ground and used a clenched fist against the horse.
> Perhaps this is a valid defence: Officer, I know it was a gun pointed at you, but it was not loaded at the time!
> 
> 
> ...



Let's see the footage... and additionally, look at the action of the bit from the copper.

The charge is cruelty, Rob. If you want to play that game you simply cannot win, because I know what goes on there.


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## wayneL (20 April 2022)

rederob said:


> I apologise @wayneL - there I was thinking it was Sydney, and now it appears Tobruk was being ridden by the Mounties somewhere in Canada.
> So pleased you cleared up the fake news.



Again displaying your ignorance as the Australian mounted police are colloquially known as the "mounties" to all within the horse industry and the police force. 

Stop being a child.


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## moXJO (20 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Picture of "not a closed fist":
> View attachment 140597
> 
> Thumb over the index finger and other fingers bent  in towards the palm!
> ...



It's not a fist. The fingers are to high in the palm and it's also held to loosely to be classed as a "fist". That doesn't mean he can't strike with it. But given the video evidence, it's  not a strong case to say it was a punch.

Having that much palm exposed usually means you are using the palm to shove while protecting the fingers. It also can be turned into a fist for actual punching. But it was held out loose.

The other points could be argued, but I don't really care.


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## moXJO (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> But not a well known fact, I am a black belt in Goju Ryu (though have not trained for many years). I know what a strike is and I know what a parry is. I also know the mechanics the human body is in situations with regards to the wrist and hands, and how to observe speed and tension in agonist and antagonist muscle groups.



Yeah, I'm just butt hurt because I was a fighter for so many years.


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## rederob (20 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> It's not a fist. The fingers are to high in the palm and it's also held to loosely to be classed as a "fist".



Do some anatomy:




If you were right then his fingernails would be visible.
And his thumb would not be able to wrap around as it does!
Did you take one too many knocks in the ring?


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## rederob (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Let's see the footage... and additionally, look at the action of the bit from the copper.



Why?
Are you going to concoct more fake news?


wayneL said:


> The charge is cruelty, Rob. If you want to play that game you simply cannot win, because I know what goes on there.



So do police and so do State Prosecutors who brought the charge.  I suggest you go to bat for the moron seeing you seem so well versed on this.


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## cynic (20 April 2022)

rederob said:


> He disobeyed a public health order to attend a protest rally, refused to move along/disperse, and even after being jailed he refused to be swabbed for covid on an excuse that would make @cynic proud.



My comments here have been primarily centred around concern regarding the integrity(in this case lack thereof) of the published claims to the perpetration of a physically violent act against an animal!

Your baseless attribution, to myself, of sentiments, that I have, as yet, not discussed, is inappropriate, unjustified, and off topic. Aforementioned attribution, also happens to be entirely incorrect!!!

One wonders how it is, that the perennial claimant, to cognitive superiority, could possibly come to make such a careless mistake- namely
the bold expression of one's personal misperceptions of another's unstated views?

Perhaps you consider yourself, to hold superior expertise, to myself, when it comes to knowing my thoughts!!!


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## moXJO (20 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Do some anatomy:
> View attachment 140605
> 
> If you were right then his fingernails would be visible.
> ...



His hand was upright and the knuckles were not connecting. Palm is way to open with the lower open part in contact with the horse.

It was a shove. Otherwise the above photo of the fist (as an example) would have the horse head at the top of the photo connecting with the knuckles. It was a shove using the meaty part of the hand under the pinky finger.


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## rederob (20 April 2022)

cynic said:


> My comments here have been primarily centred around concern regarding the integrity(in this case lack thereof) of the published claims to the perpetration of a physically violent act against an animal!



You don't mean this irrelevance then?


cynic said:


> Possibly not quite the right thread for this posting, given that the content appears to closely align with reality, but, would anyone care to guess, the source of the underquoted statement/admission?
> "(Modelling can tell you anything you want - it all depends on the input)"




On topic, a moron struck a police horse with his closed fist, as per an abundance of evidence and a charge being laid by the State Prosecutor.
But in your world of apparent fairy tales that did not happen!


cynic said:


> Your baseless attribution, to myself, of sentiments, that I have, as yet, not discussed, is inappropriate, unjustified, and off topic. Aforementioned attribution, also happens to be entirely incorrect!!!



Put that into English.
I seldom find your comments to be sensible, and that was another example!


cynic said:


> One wonders how it is, that the perennial claimant, to cognitive superiority, could possibly come to make such a careless mistake- namely
> the bold expression of one's personal misperceptions of another's unstated views?
> Perhaps you consider yourself, to hold superior expertise, to myself, when it comes to knowing my thoughts!!!



Would you like me to buy Grammarly for you?


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## cynic (20 April 2022)

rederob said:


> On topic, a moron struck a police horse with his closed fist, as per an abundance of evidence and a charge being laid by the State Prosecutor.



If that were actually true, then it wouldn't be on topic in a "Fake news..." thread (such as this one).


rederob said:


> But in your world of apparent fairy tales that did not happen!



Not just my world!! Many happen to share my perspective on this (as is evidenced by multiple postings from various other thread participants, not to mention an abundance of people expressing similar views elsewhere etc.). Fortunately for yourself, I prefer to form my views based upon the actual evidence, rather than making the fashionable mistake, of misinterpreting widespread agreement, as substantive proof.


rederob said:


> Put that into English.
> I seldom find your comments to be sensible, and that was another example!



It is already in English. I do trust that someone, esteeming themselves so highly, would be capable of utilising dictionary assistance, upon encountering unfamiliar words.


rederob said:


> Would you like me to buy Grammarly for you?



That seems more akin to an intentional insult than a serious question. As such, it does not merit a response.


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## rederob (20 April 2022)

cynic said:


> If that were actually true, then it wouldn't be on topic in a "Fake news..." thread (such as this one).



The "fake news" are your claims, lol.  
This does not get funner.


cynic said:


> Not just my world!! Many happen to share my perspective on this (as is evidenced by multiple postings from various other thread participants, not to mention an abundance of people expressing similar views elsewhere etc.).



Yep, and how many Americans still think Trump won the 2020 Presidential election.  PT Barnum wrote this script. 


cynic said:


> Fortunately for yourself, I prefer to form my views based upon the actual evidence,



Oh, so please join @wayneL in defending the moron.  


cynic said:


> rather than making the fashionable mistake, of misinterpreting widespread agreement, as substantive proof.



No, I think the police know what they are doing and relied on what everyone else saw as well, except they were on the scene, one in fact riding the struck horse!


cynic said:


> It is already in English. I do trust that someone, esteeming themselves so highly, would be capable of utilising dictionary assistance, upon encountering unfamiliar words.



I actually write things that people can understand.
You disappear words into an incomprehensible gluttony of molasses.


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## wayneL (20 April 2022)

Rederob, as per usual, seeks to misrepresent the nuance of his opponent's position.

This is typical of the disingenuity(sic) and mendacity of the leftist position.

And just so that we are clear, yes I am calling you a f****** liar.


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## wayneL (20 April 2022)

Anyway, on to less tiresome topics:

I did miss the leaders debate tonight, media seems to be calling it a bit of a draw really.

Any opinions from those who actually watch it?


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## moXJO (20 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Anyway, on to less tiresome topics:
> 
> I did miss the leaders debate tonight, media seems to be calling it a bit of a draw really.
> 
> Any opinions from those who actually watch it?



Really? 
Damn I must be living in a bubble at the moment. Didn't even know. Or care.


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## rederob (21 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Rederob, as per usual, seeks to misrepresent the nuance of his opponent's position.



Striking a police horse at an unlawful protest where the moron refused to move on *has no "nuance"*.


wayneL said:


> This is typical of the disingenuity(sic) and mendacity of the leftist position.



You should look at your earlier post


wayneL said:


> I think it's high time that everybody stops categorising those on the absolute extremes, as representative of everybody on that side of the spectrum.



as your hypocrisy is nothing short of disingenuous.  Nicely followed by another example of yours below:


wayneL said:


> And just so that we are clear, yes I am calling you a f****** liar.



Need I say more!

So let's recap:
On 24 July you posted one of your many tweets suggesting this incident was *fake news*.
A follow-up comment of yours stated "Fake news (eg the horse punch) is du rigeur."
You eventually offered an MSM video clearly showing "Tobruk" was struck, but saying "it was the whimpiest punch ever recorded in the last 500 years."
I was implored to watch the video evidence, which is interesting as I had referenced it and showed the evidence police and State Prosecutors relied on to make the case.  As I am simply mirroring the claim of the State, based on the evidence we all have, my position is in fact the same as that of the officer riding Tobruk, who we can reasonably assume @wayneL would also call "f****** liar"

Yes, there were the typical unintelligible comments from @cynic, and suggestions it was not really a "punch."  But the earlier suggestion that it was a push preventing Mr Free Speech from being trampled is as bogus as fake news gets.  I showed an instance of a push in a similar circumstance and it clearly shows an open palm against the horse, which is the natural, instinctive defence against a horse you would fear trampling you.  Everything Mr Free Speech did was wrong and aggressive rather than defensive.

@wayneL would have us believe he knows more about the law than the State, yet offers no evidence to suggest this is credible.  And rather than argue the State's case against Mr Free Speech @wayneL reverts to type and plays the man, as they say in the vernacular.


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## moXJO (21 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Striking a police horse at an unlawful protest where the moron refused to move on *has no "nuance"*.
> 
> You should look at your earlier post
> 
> ...



I think it highlights Australias need for a bill of rights.
Leaving the house to protest was never really tested in court against the " reasonable excuse to leave the house" rule at the time.

But personally I think that democracy doesn't stop during a pandemic. Even though our rep democracy is a bit of a cartoonish joke. 

Protests in open air didn't seem to spread that much. 

Here's the guy with the so called "punch"
Notice that the arm isn't swung.
Knuckles don't connect as a normal punch would.
The slow speed of the arm movement suggests a push.
The horse was aimed at him and was trying to move him back.



Still photos completely change the context. Not to say he is/isn't wrong.

According to untested pandemic laws these people shouldn't have been there. Unless you think your right to protest was a reasonable excuse. I have noticed that the greenies are now getting slammed in nsw with protest laws. A slide in rights effects everyone.


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## DB008 (21 April 2022)

The media twists everything to please their puppet masters...






Your browser is not able to display this video.





.


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## moXJO (19 May 2022)

The guy that "punched a horse" had that charge dismissed in court.


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## wayneL (19 May 2022)

rederob said:


> Striking a police horse at an unlawful protest where the moron refused to move on *has no "nuance"*.
> 
> You should look at your earlier post
> 
> ...





Time always outs.


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## rederob (19 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Time always outs.



The Prosecution dropped the animal cruelty charges as *the moron pleaded guilty to breaching public health orders*.
So the contentious charges were never tested in court.


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## wayneL (19 May 2022)

rederob said:


> The Prosecution dropped the animal cruelty charges as *the moron pleaded guilty to breaching public health orders*.
> So the contentious charges were never tested in court.



And why do ya reckon that might be?


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