# Riding the ramps



## gordon2007 (11 January 2007)

I'm a fairly new poster here. What I find interesting though is the amount of baseless ramping (in between some very usefull and helpful posts) that is in a fair bit of threads on here.

But then I think to myself...is this a valid way to trade? Ride all the waves from ramps and quickly take your profits? When I say valid I mean...is that a strategy that people actually use and make a consistent profit from? 

It seems to me that it is a way for people with small capital to trade, risky but could be very profitable with a few good hits in a row? 

How many do this? I'd think that you could only trade so long successfully this way? Am I wrong? Would love to hear from someone who actually trades this way and find out what the nuances are, the pros and cons. Do people trade this way because of a lack of funds?  A lack of understanding? Is it a shortcut? Is it considered cheating? 

What's everyone's thoughts on this?


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## Bobby (12 January 2007)

gordon2007 said:
			
		

> I'm a fairly new poster here. What I find interesting though is the amount of baseless ramping (in between some very usefull and helpful posts) that is in a fair bit of threads on here.
> 
> But then I think to myself...is this a valid way to trade? Ride all the waves from ramps and quickly take your profits? When I say valid I mean...is that a strategy that people actually use and make a consistent profit from?
> 
> ...



Hello Gordon,

No mate its not like that, think about the volume & price that happens first, thats real.
Only dopes buy ramps   

Bob.


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## GreatPig (12 January 2007)

Typically the most heavily ramped stocks are the ones that are going nowhere or falling. After all, if a share is skyrocketing, why would you need to waste time ramping it?

GP


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## gordon2007 (12 January 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> Hello Gordon,
> 
> No mate its not like that, think about the volume & price that happens first, thats real.
> Only dopes buy ramps
> ...




I'm just not sure that is entirely correct. Let's say you're reading posts that are a blatant ramp from various different forums. Let's say you buy 20,000 shares of a .15 cent share and then sell it 30 minutes at .175. OK that's a $500 profit, minus your your fees and such. Say it's a actual profit of $400. after all your fees. Yes that's called day trading but it's different in that you're not using fundamental information. You're buying based on a herd mentality, essentially taking advantage of the herd.

Now $400 may not seem much to some, but to others it's a windfall. 

To me, I see it as a version of day trading, but just using all the wrong reasons to buy it.


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## dj_420 (12 January 2007)

GreatPig said:
			
		

> Typically the most heavily ramped stocks are the ones that are going nowhere or falling. After all, if a share is skyrocketing, why would you need to waste time ramping it?
> 
> GP




i agree with gp, if a stock is heading nowhere ppl will try to encourage movement by ramping, such as "buy now ann coming", "next paladin", "ive spoken to director buy now".

usually you can just buy into a good company on fundamentals and it will take care of itself.


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## bigt (12 January 2007)

...check what happened to YML after a the informative fundamental analysis by YT on ASF...not ramping, but information expressed on a forum that promted a very quick rise on low volume to the YML SP...some say this was driven purely by the ASF traders! Maybe not in its entireity, but I'm sure it pushed it up nicely. 

I'm also sure a well constructed ramp would have the potential to fool some inexperienced investors into similar action.


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## gordon2007 (12 January 2007)

Yes I agree people do that. But that's not my point at all.  My point is, with enough people ramping a share the price does indeed go up, if just for a day. Ultimately the sp will correct after a ramp. And yes people get burned buying on this basis. I'm not advocating it nor would I buy a share based on ramps. But people do. And people make a profit from it. 

My query is, are there people here who use ramps as their strategy? Because if you can get the timing done right then one can be profitable.


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## gordon2007 (12 January 2007)

Forgot a few more questions. 

And if buying on ramps is your strategy, what are the nuances of it. Take small profits and run? Instead of waiting for a big payday just keep taking small profits of 5-6 hundred and get out? What's the success rate of this? 

Again that won't be my style of trading but surely it is for some. I'm just curious what kind of person is attracted to this.


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## dj_420 (12 January 2007)

bigt said:
			
		

> ...check what happened to YML after a the informative fundamental analysis by YT on ASF...not ramping, but information expressed on a forum that promted a very quick rise on low volume to the YML SP...some say this was driven purely by the ASF traders! Maybe not in its entireity, but I'm sure it pushed it up nicely.
> 
> I'm also sure a well constructed ramp would have the potential to fool some inexperienced investors into similar action.



this was also caused by the fact that YML is such a thinly traded stock, second day after young traders posts sp ran from 17 to 24 cents, a few weeks later it ran from 20 cents to 33 cents then fell back just as quickly.

this is because it is so thinly traded a few big $ either way causes large price fluctuations. if the stock was more heavily traded then yt's posts may not have had such a great effect on sp.

in the instance of YML there is one seller of 1 million shares, he could not sell these shares without dramatically affecting sp. he could take out every buy order all the way down to 0 cents!

just look at avg volumes for YML until lately.


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## Sean K (12 January 2007)

Guys I'm not sure if this is the type of thread Joe would be happy with. 

Can you hold off on this until he gets out of bed and checks it. 

Cheers.


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## gordon2007 (12 January 2007)

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=110678&postcount=53

I was encouraged by a moderator to open a thread.


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## Joe Blow (12 January 2007)

Thread is okay with me... and particularly timely considering ASF will shortly be having a major crackdown on ramping and rampers.


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## gordon2007 (12 January 2007)

Joe Blow said:
			
		

> Thread is okay with me... and particularly timely considering ASF will shortly be having a major crackdown on ramping and rampers.





Really...can you post some links for that Joe? Would love to read up on it.


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## Joe Blow (12 January 2007)

gordon2007 said:
			
		

> Really...can you post some links for that Joe? Would love to read up on it.




ASF = Aussie Stock Forums.

Very soon the mods and I will be taking a particularly hardline stance against ramping. We will be deleting any post considered a ramp and suspending the accounts of those who cannot break the habit.


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## SevenFX (12 January 2007)

Joe Blow said:
			
		

> ASF = Aussie Stock Forums.
> 
> Very soon the mods and I will be taking a particularly hardline stance against ramping. We will be deleting any post considered a ramp and suspending the accounts of those who cannot break the habit.




Joe didn't you like the suggestion I made with reguards to ammending the post with a standard ramp removal stamp type of thing....????

This way other learn from it. otherwise there's just missing posts...so the next guy doesn't see or learn anything...

Cheers
SevenFX


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## nioka (12 January 2007)

YT's info on YML has been spot on. Today's announcement proves it. His info certainly influenced the market but that is what good info does. It is for this type of info that I follow this forum. I have done well with info gained here. Examples are AGM ( where there was suggestions of ramping ) ADI ( ditto), AOE, etc 
 Ramping ? People should do their own research.


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## Joe Blow (12 January 2007)

SevenFX said:
			
		

> This way other learn from it. otherwise there's just missing posts...so the next guy doesn't see or learn anything...




If there is something useful in the post, besides the ramp then that's a possibility. But if the post is simply a ramp it will be removed without notice.


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## SevenFX (12 January 2007)

Yes Agreed Joe, remove all the ramp content, and subsitute with RAMP STAMP (perhaps in RED) along with any valuable content..

And tis makes a great visual reminder for all to contain excitement, which over time this less will be required.

Just a royality free suggestion
SevenFX


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## gordon2007 (12 January 2007)

nioka said:
			
		

> YT's info on YML has been spot on. Today's announcement proves it. His info certainly influenced the market but that is what good info does. It is for this type of info that I follow this forum. I have done well with info gained here. Examples are AGM ( where there was suggestions of ramping ) ADI ( ditto), AOE, etc
> Ramping ? People should do their own research.




Nobody (well at least I haven't) had been saying YT ramps. If anyone has misunderstand my posts and thought I was inferring that than I do apologise. I only used the YML thread because someone had mentioned in one of the posts to stop the ramping in it. I'll find the post if anyone wants. 

I think a lot of this has been misunderstand. Let me try to clear it up. I was never saying anyone ramps. I've not accusing anyone of ramping. But it's a fact that ramps do happen and I wonder if people (not the people doing the ramping) use that as a rule to buy into a share and get out quickly. 

Meaning lets say I read a thread and feel that it's being baselessly ramped up, even though I haven't typed a word about it, would I buy it just based on assumption that it'll go up because someone else is ramping it and hoping to sell quickly thus  making a small profit.


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## theasxgorilla (12 January 2007)

gordon2007 said:
			
		

> But then I think to myself...is this a valid way to trade? Ride all the waves from ramps and quickly take your profits? When I say valid I mean...is that a strategy that people actually use and make a consistent profit from?




As this is not a ramp in an of itself but a contemplation of ramping it's probably okay to discuss, right?

Rene Rivkin is no longer with us, but those of us who remember his newsletter in it's earlier days will also most likely remember the trouble he got into when he was found selling shares with one hand that with the other he was recommending to his subscribers as a buy.

Even with the economy of scale that his subscriber base afforded him he could only ramp micro-cap shares.  Of course he only needed to ramp micro-cap shares as their low liquidity meant that he could move the market as he tried to exit.

I expect that if a ramp on ASF actually works then the share is either ultra-micro-cap or being ramped elsewhere and the ASF post is a re-iteration of this ramping.  If you want to ramp something bigger you've got to be a big brokerage house or have mainstream media connections, right?

Maybe other people's experience has been different to this?


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## doctorj (12 January 2007)

To drag it back on topic - are ramps tradable?  Look at NWE this morning...

Does the volume of posts on a company act as a leading indicator for a break out?  Do changes in the rate of posts do the same, or better?  Do people follow less reputable posters at the other forum, hoping they get on and off early enough?

What are your experiences?


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## gordon2007 (12 January 2007)

Well said doctor....these are the type of things I'm trying to figure out.


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## bigt (12 January 2007)

..it was me who initially mentioned YT's YML info. in this thread, not as an example of ramping, but as an example of how quickly a SP can move based on info. placed into forums such as these. In YT's case it was factual..tho my point was this type of information could also be non-factual ramping, by someone trying to influcence the SP...and those inexperience enough to not be able to read through the BS may jump in and set off a mini-SP rise.

Apologies if anyone thought I was insinuating YT's analysis as a ramp, not the case, and please keep up the excellent posts YT...I have been following your thoughtful insights for several months now and am extremely impressed, to say the least.


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## Kauri (12 January 2007)

A while ago whilst at an art exhibition opening I met a bloke who had imbibed rather freely of the complimentary red (as had I). He explained to me that he and a few of his mates searched for cheap speculative penny dreadfulls that were in a hot sector. Over a few days they bought up a position in the stock, then via a couple of (*reputable*) forums started pushing it. Punters check out the chart, see the gradual volume increase, and buy in, adding to the hype with their own posts and also the increased vol. Momentum traders and the _fear of missing out_ traders get on, with the inevitable surge in price and vol. Job done, on to the next. He even told me the share involved and I watched it all unfold. It happens and more often than you think. And he reckoned that it was getting easier as he had reached *Guru* status on the forums involved.
   Is it tradable.... yes.... but be aware of what is driving the price, if there is only hype treat it as a momentum trade. Don't be the one left holding the can at the end of the day.


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## watsonc (12 January 2007)

I have seen a particular person, whom of which I won't name, who has posted 3 identical messages on this forum and two others.

It was something along the lines of "YML will fly to $1.00, Buy, Buy, Buy!" "This will do exactly what GSE did!"

Shouldn't this be illegal or something?

Also I have noticed people copy and pasting Young Trader's research on on YML on other forums. A bit dodgy if you ask me.


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## watsonc (12 January 2007)

It's possible for someone to participate on 6 or 7 forums using a different name for each, and just talk s##t all day to ramp their stocks.
I've noticed most people use the same name for all the forums! Wouldn't it be better to have a different name for each forum - that way it would be harder to be detected as a blatant ramper.


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## Deadcat (12 January 2007)

Rampers are easy to spot.  There is no susbstance to their posts and declarations of buy buy buy.  I think it is great to have a forum like this to bring to your attention stocks that are performing, not performing etc and to have people speculate with their reasons explaining.  I ignore sales tactics used by blatant rampers and would definately not trade their stocks.


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## canny (12 January 2007)

watsonc - I am one who has reposted YT's post (YML) onto another forum, with his name used as the credit - not taking the credit myself.
I have done this because I thought it was exceptional research which could be appreciated and shared by others. The figures were accurate and reflect the future potential of the stock. Is that ramping or sharing information?

I still believe the price will come back up to reflect the future value.
Seems to have been some fear in the trading today imo.


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## YOUNG_TRADER (13 January 2007)

Hey all,


Just had a good read of this thread,

I don't mind people copying my research and posting on other threads (as I can't really stop them), so long as ASF members get the benefit of at least 1 week to diggest it before anyone else does.

*One thing I must stress though is I'm no guru*

And everytime I find a good undervalued story, ie recently it was YML and also NWE I hope people do their own research and analysis (most do) and form their own opinion, I would never want someone to go, hey that guy reckons this ones a goer buy buy buy.

I hope my contributions are useful.

Cheers all


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## constable (13 January 2007)

Kauri said:
			
		

> A while ago whilst at an art exhibition opening I met a bloke who had imbibed rather freely of the complimentary red (as had I). He explained to me that he and a few of his mates searched for cheap speculative penny dreadfulls that were in a hot sector. Over a few days they bought up a position in the stock, then via a couple of (*reputable*) forums started pushing it. Punters check out the chart, see the gradual volume increase, and buy in, adding to the hype with their own posts and also the increased vol. Momentum traders and the _fear of missing out_ traders get on, with the inevitable surge in price and vol. Job done, on to the next. He even told me the share involved and I watched it all unfold. It happens and more often than you think. And he reckoned that it was getting easier as he had reached *Guru* status on the forums involved.
> Is it tradable.... yes.... but be aware of what is driving the price, if there is only hype treat it as a momentum trade. Don't be the one left holding the can at the end of the day.



I wonder if this guy has bought into SOM !!!
Also i bet this is the same guy that buys into aex every 3-5 weeks ! 
Didnt get his numba by any chance ! lol


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## Kauri (15 January 2007)

constable said:
			
		

> I wonder if this guy has bought into SOM !!!
> Also i bet this is the same guy that buys into aex every 3-5 weeks !
> Didnt get his numba by any chance ! lol




constable,
Funny that. Around the traps (art shows) I hear that it is hard to find any mining minnows that have not *moved*, apparently the bio tech/health minnows are next. Of course this is hearsay only. DYOR, or should I say go to your own art exhibitions!!


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## kgee (15 January 2007)

Kauri said:
			
		

> A while ago whilst at an art exhibition opening I met a bloke who had imbibed rather freely of the complimentary red (as had I). He explained to me that he and a few of his mates searched for cheap speculative penny dreadfulls that were in a hot sector. Over a few days they bought up a position in the stock, then via a couple of (*reputable*) forums started pushing it. Punters check out the chart, see the gradual volume increase, and buy in, adding to the hype with their own posts and also the increased vol. Momentum traders and the _fear of missing out_ traders get on, with the inevitable surge in price and vol. Job done, on to the next. He even told me the share involved and I watched it all unfold. It happens and more often than you think. And he reckoned that it was getting easier as he had reached *Guru* status on the forums involved.
> Is it tradable.... yes.... but be aware of what is driving the price, if there is only hype treat it as a momentum trade. Don't be the one left holding the can at the end of the day.




Not a bad idea maybe a bunch of us could get together and do the same thing...I'm always up for making some $$$ and I'm not sure it's breaking any laws????  And I think it says in the bible "a fool and his money are easy parted" so maybe we'd be doing gods work 2?


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## canny (15 January 2007)

There was someone on a couple of forums about 3 years back doing it - his nicname initials were  s r.
Asked for people with large wallets - and I mean VERY large. Needed mega millions, and they said that can certainly alter the market quite easily.
Afraid I was nowhere near their money league and have to get there the hard way through research and running stock scans!!
Never mind!!


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## gordon2007 (15 January 2007)

I still haven't seen anyone actually admit they buy shares based on someone else ramping it. Perhaps it's not as prevalent as I thought, or just that people who do it aren't too keen to admit to it.


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## theasxgorilla (15 January 2007)

gordon2007 said:
			
		

> I still haven't seen anyone actually admit they buy shares based on someone else ramping it. Perhaps it's not as prevalent as I thought, or just that people who do it aren't too keen to admit to it.




As a rule I don't go into threads on forums about stocks that my own analysis has not lead me to in the first place.  It's the easiest way to avoid any influence that ramping might have.


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## Snakey (15 January 2007)

gordon2007 said:
			
		

> I still haven't seen anyone actually admit they buy shares based on someone else ramping it. Perhaps it's not as prevalent as I thought, or just that people who do it aren't too keen to admit to it.




Ok people I rode jms and made a very tidy profit ...then I saw it was recommended by Young Trader back in February last year. Nice work YT.
YT came up with another stock YML. Another jem YT and nice work again.
I kept an eye out for this new stock and sure enough as soon as YT recommended it ...it got a speeding ticket because the price raced up so 
quickly. I was not going to buy over priced stock so I left them to settle for a bit before my entry. Well I got carried away with other stocks but noticed it climb again. Anyway I made the purchace at .23 250k then YT's findings were posted on HotCopper and the price went to .33..I held knowing ann due shortly.  the price then dropped to .24 And I could not help myself and topped up at .25 50000. Then the ann came (not as good as I hoped for. Decided to take profit on ann because funds desperately needed else where. I had a tidy profit of $12500...So you can ride the wave of ramp but you must sell early to beat all the other holders(traders). Not an Ideal strategy but nice to have it under the belt for the occasion.
I do not consider YT a ramper...more so a respected analyst and the price moved on good analysis. But where theres movement theres money to be made. Thanks YT and canny. Cheques in the mail


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## mrWoodo (15 January 2007)

gordon2007 said:
			
		

> I still haven't seen anyone actually admit they buy shares based on someone else ramping it. Perhaps it's not as prevalent as I thought, or just that people who do it aren't too keen to admit to it.




OK, I'll put my hand up - EXT (you couldn't find a more ramped stock in the forums I reckon), CAZ and BMX were ones I bought - Pocketed very decent amts out of all three at the time. Now I wouldn't say it was my plan to buy them based on the ramping - More like I was a noob completely caught up in the fever pitched excitement  I look back and realised how lucky I was to get out of them unscathed. Then along came EDE - Wow did that teach me a lesson   

To answer the original q's : 

*Do people trade this way because of a lack of funds? *
_In my case funds are fine, I was just after crazy returns / shortcuts_

*A lack of understanding? *
_Definitely ! Being removed from any 'grapevine', for a while I thought the heavily ramped forums would be an alternative_

*Is it a shortcut?*
_In the long run, probably not - One mistake and you could be wiped out_

*Is it considered cheating? *
_More like dubious marketing - Insider trading would be cheating_

Now am busy developing a system (I'm a programmer), this will keep me out of trouble and avoid weakness


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## constable (15 January 2007)

Snakey said:
			
		

> But where theres movement theres money to be made.




Too right!
It doesnt matter to me why the stock is going up, as long as it is when your trading it purely on price action. 
Lets face it whether people intentially ramp or not they do alert us to some great stocks and can certainly snowball volumes. Ride the wave and get off.
At the end of the day you're in control no one else.
 Plus do we give rampers to much credit for affecting sp ?! hmmm possibly


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## canny (15 January 2007)

All good - with the critical bit being to remember to take profits!!!

No use sitting on big gains only to see them disappear down the gurgler.

I'm sure if we truly self analyse honestly, we've probably bought stocks without doing any specific research - sometimes it might be a 'ramp' and sometimes we trust the poster. You win some you lose some, but ultimately, it's always our own decision.

I have a tendency not to read posts unless I'm interested in that particular stock. Posts with back up are always more valuable than one liners.


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## gordon2007 (15 January 2007)

Ahhh finally some true answers. It's what I thought all along. Thanks. For some reason I just wanted confirmation and now I've got it.


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## Kauri (15 January 2007)

I have, and still do, trade in these possible ramp stocks. I run a nightly scan on sub 10c stocks looking for an average vol increase over a couple of weeks that doesn't move the SP too much. Once I have one I check through the usual suss forums to make sure there is not much chatter about it. One with some sort of ann coming up soon as well as the above is even better. See chart 1..
 Next step is I place it on an intraday alert for price and/or vol and also watch the suss forums for "*enthusiastic* " posts. If it starts lifting off on this sudden burst of usually unsubstantiated rumour/inside info type of posting I jump on. Am allways out the same day. sometimes it goes on, but the norm is 100%+ on the first day, and I am happy with that. See chart 2....
  P.S... Megamillions is no longer needed in the current climate, $500,000 spread over 1 month is by my observations more than enough, so long as it is large enough to show up as unusual. Nice return too...


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## spottygoose (15 January 2007)

canny said:
			
		

> watsonc - I am one who has reposted YT's post (YML) onto another forum, with his name used as the credit - not taking the credit myself.
> I have done this because I thought it was exceptional research which could be appreciated and shared by others. The figures were accurate and reflect the future potential of the stock. Is that ramping or sharing information?




With all due respect Canny the post you refer to was definately sharing information, however your next post:


"This has $1 written all over it - and I remember what happened when MMB said "we know nothing" - they released results 4 hours later and flew to a dollar!" 

may well have been the former..... I am not saying you ramped it but another poster in reply to your post then turned that into "it will be a dollar this time next week" and proceeded to post that on 3 or 4 forums where a bunch of others started the "get on board, I'm stocking up blah blah blah thing". 

I think the sad thing is with YML is that it started from a basis of great research and became a bit of a monster.


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## canny (15 January 2007)

Yep - the rolling stone, gathering moss!!

I suppose one thing leads to another and we get excited about the prospects - and then someone else gets MORE excited and so it goes on!

The YML figures that YT ran still seem to be perfectly legit and achievable - (70c as a very conservative value)so this is certainly a case where I really don't understand the fall back.

One thing I AM noticing, is that a lot of companies are putting out extremely 'boring' announcements. Figures are released with not the slightest attempt to let the layman understand what the heck it all means.
If they paid more attention to HOW they announce results, they might find more interest in their stock. I think the YML early figures probably fell into this category somewhat and a ho hum response came in form the market.

It's also a known fact htat we get the 'buy the rumour, sell the fact' scenario quite often. Again, too much enthusiasm cruelled this one.
I'll be interested to see if they can pull it back up with the next round of results!


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## YOUNG_TRADER (15 January 2007)

kgee said:
			
		

> Not a bad idea maybe a bunch of us could get together and do the same thing...I'm always up for making some $$$ and I'm not sure it's breaking any laws????  And I think it says in the bible "a fool and his money are easy parted" so maybe we'd be doing gods work 2?





ROFLMAO, especially at your justification, I can just picture

(Asic Tribunal) "Mr Kgee do you have any words to say in your defence for securities manipulation and fraud?"

(Kgee) "I was doing the lords bidding"


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