# Coronavirus vaccine news



## SirRumpole (20 August 2020)

I thought a separate thread for vaccine developments may be appropriate.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...ne-story-behind-australia-and-oxford/12575432


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## qldfrog (20 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought a separate thread for vaccine developments may be appropriate.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...ne-story-behind-australia-and-oxford/12575432



Yes, definitively and it could go on for years well past the covid19 crisis


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## wayneL (20 August 2020)

For the record, I am not an anti vaxxer.

And I am not against a mandatory vaccination program for truly deleterious viral/bacterial infections... Smallpox, TB, and whatnot.

And... If I thought a CV19 vaccination was demonstrably safe and proven to the effective, I might even be on board *voluntarily* for that.

But there has been discussions about any future CV vaccine being mandatory, or at least functionality mandatory.

On balance I am vehemently against such a notion, *especially* with the currently rushed program.

Just my thoughts, carry on chaps and chappesses.


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## sptrawler (20 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought a separate thread for vaccine developments may be appropriate.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...ne-story-behind-australia-and-oxford/12575432



Untill it gets high jacked and becomes another Trump thread.


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## Dona Ferentes (20 August 2020)

*What the immune response to the coronavirus says about the prospects for a vaccine *
Viral immunologists say that results so far have been predictable — here’s why that’s good news.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02400-7


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## SirRumpole (20 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> On balance I am vehemently against such a notion, *especially* with the currently rushed program.




I agree with you. As I am approaching the "risk" age, I would probably take it myself but I would have reservations about it being mandatory without a compensation scheme for those who have severe reactions. 

Morrison is now backing away from the mandatory solution.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-20/coronavirus-vaccine-mandatory-rules-anti-vaxxers/12575138


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## wayneL (20 August 2020)

Horace, I can't remember whether it was the cmo or his deputy has muted some measures which would make it functionally mandatory, ie, no travel, either interstate or international, no restaurants, no welfare payments and so on.

Which begs the question is how would they ascertain whether someone has had the vaccination or not. Additionally, someone who has already acquired immunity from being infected with the virus obviously do not need the vaccination, what then?

Are they going to put a tattoo on forehead, insert a chip, perhaps a branding (I can make them if anyone interested lol)?

This government's totalitarian wet dreams are seriously concerning in my opinion.


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## SirRumpole (20 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Horace, I can't remember whether it was the cmo or his deputy has muted some measures which would make it functionally mandatory, ie, no travel, either interstate or international, no restaurants, no welfare payments and so on.
> 
> Which begs the question is how would they ascertain whether someone has had the vaccination or not. Additionally, someone who has already acquired immunity from being infected with the virus obviously do not need the vaccination, what then?
> 
> ...




Good questions wayne.

I think there are a lot of thought bubbles going around at the moment in political/medical circles.

Presumably you would get some sort of certificate like a drivers license which you would carry around.

It will definitely get messy.


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## Dona Ferentes (20 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Presumably you would get some sort of certificate like a drivers license which you would carry around.
> .



that's a bit low tech. As long as each state issues its own, that will preserve the _status quo _of travel restrictions.


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## cynic (20 August 2020)

Alternatively, it might be simpler to employ the already tried and tested method of making, all unwelcome (i.e. non vaccinated) members of the populace, wear a yellow star!!


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## wayneL (20 August 2020)

I'm suspicious.

I would refer people to my hitherto ignored post - "Ihre Papiere, Bitte"


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## IFocus (20 August 2020)

Not aware of anyone saying any of the vaccines will be a silver bullet (other than politicians)  but would expect most to offer some protection and any released in Australia to be safe and have some level efficacy but not 100%.

Expect health professionals and politicians to be lining up for photo ops getting the shot as there will need to be wide acceptance of the vaccine and travel wont happen without one even between states in Australia I would think.

One point I do wonder about is when the virus causes the over reaction of the immune system that ends up killing the patient if a vaccine would protect against this happening.


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## macca (20 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Not aware of anyone saying any of the vaccines will be a silver bullet (other than politicians)  but would expect most to offer some protection and any released in Australia to be safe and have some level efficacy but not 100%.
> 
> One point I do wonder about is when the virus causes the over reaction of the immune system that ends up killing the patient if a vaccine would protect against this happening.




the big question is could a vaccine cause an over reaction ?

I have never had the flu, neither has my wife, for that reason we have never had the flu vaccine.

Of our friends, 5 get the flu vaccine every year, 4 out of 5 get sick each year about 10-14 days later, the other one doesn't.......... weird !!


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## IFocus (20 August 2020)

macca said:


> the big question is could a vaccine cause an over reaction ?
> 
> I have never had the flu, neither has my wife, for that reason we have never had the flu vaccine.
> 
> Of our friends, 5 get the flu vaccine every year, 4 out of 5 get sick each year about 10-14 days later, the other one doesn't.......... weird !!




Not aware of over reaction problems Macca.

My wife never gets the flu but I used to get it every year up to 2 or 3 times depending on how many strains around.

If I get the jab i don't get the flu, guess everyone is different.


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## Knobby22 (20 August 2020)

macca said:


> the big question is could a vaccine cause an over reaction ?
> 
> I have never had the flu, neither has my wife, for that reason we have never had the flu vaccine.
> 
> Of our friends, 5 get the flu vaccine every year, 4 out of 5 get sick each year about 10-14 days later, the other one doesn't.......... weird !!



One of my brothers used to work at a professional football club(AFL). All the staff were given free flu shots. One assistant coach refused it saying he never gets sick. 

He caught it and was so sick he couldn't work for 3 months. Lost his job and his football career. Club was quite angry with him.

I work with some guys most who don't  take the flu shot. 2 years ago it went through our office, I had had the flu shot so was unaffected as was the boss.

One of the guys who had never had a sick day in his life aged in his late 40s got so sick he ended up in a serious  condition in hospital, missed our Christmas lunch. 

Coronavirus is worse by about 10 times so if the testing is done properly I won't hesitate. I will be first in line.


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## cynic (21 August 2020)

It looks like those dependent upon welfare, won't have any say in the matter:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-20/coronavirus-vaccine-link-to-government-payments/12577618

Given the marked increase in the welfare dependency of the Australian populace, courtesy of covid19 lockdowns, this would be tantamount to a defacto mandation of the vaccine for the vast majority of Australians.


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## Smurf1976 (21 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Alternatively, it might be simpler to employ the already tried and tested method of making, all unwelcome (i.e. non vaccinated) members of the populace, wear a yellow star!!




Barcode.

Just stamp everyone's wrist with a barcode in the way nightclubs stamp wrists at the door. Use permanent ink. No Stamp No Entry. 

More seriously - putting aside the arguments for or against it being developed and whether vaccination is compulsory or not, does anyone have thoughts about companies which could benefit from this in any way?

I'm thinking if someone's licensed to produce it in Australia?

Or the possibility that there's some mass immunisation program - does that create demand for anything else that's likely to be supplied by listed companies?


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## qldfrog (21 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Barcode.
> 
> Just stamp everyone's wrist with a barcode in the way nightclubs stamp wrists at the door. Use permanent ink. No Stamp No Entry.
> 
> ...



My CSL bet has not gone bad so far.
They are the only one to my knowledge to have both scale and know-how to produce something to that scale.
As for the side beneficiaries, i do not see any monopolies so no raining money.
But interesting thought


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## qldfrog (21 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> so if the testing is done properly I won't hesitate



Nor would anyone sane enough and not antiwaxer
But i can not and probably never will, manage to believe our government..worse multiple governments after the amount of misinformation we have been subject to.
I fully agree with your view being covid is basically 10 times aka one order of magnitude the usual..real and serious, flu..4 times the worst years.10 times average
I have been getting the flu shots yearly
Except for the years when i was commuting with China which gave me constant exposure to the developing various strains and amazingly kept me often flu-ey but never really sick.
Being below 55, reasonably healthy, number wise, i i will
 not play lotto with my life and hope i i will not be forced


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## SirRumpole (21 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Barcode.
> 
> 
> Or the possibility that there's some mass immunisation program - does that create demand for anything else that's likely to be supplied by listed companies?




Does anyone make syringes in Australia ?

Are there any listed pharmacies ?


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## IFocus (21 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Nor would anyone sane enough and not antiwaxer
> But i can not and probably never will, manage to believe our government..worse multiple governments after the amount of misinformation we have been subject to.




Agree re the politics but its TGA and others that will sign off on any vaccine to be used outside of politics and I do know people in the system that are involved with these processes besides being well versed in the tech / safety aspects who do genuinely care about the outcomes.
TBH I think we will be in safe hands.


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## qldfrog (21 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Agree re the politics but its TGA and others that will sign off on any vaccine to be used outside of politics and I do know people in the system that are involved with these processes besides being well versed in the tech / safety aspects who do genuinely care about the outcomes.
> TBH I think we will be in safe hands.



I hope you are right, but i will not rush and really make sure i understand the concept used for this new vaccine


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## wayneL (21 August 2020)

You lot go first, I'm going to wait and see.

I've never had flu shots (mainly because I just can't be bothered), friends and acquaintances have had various reactions. Some have no reactions whatsoever but it seems roughly 1/3 have some sort of fluey type reaction with a couple, may as well having the flu itself.

Which reminds me, I'm really due a tetanus booster.


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## SirRumpole (21 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> You lot go first, I'm going to wait and see.
> 
> I've never had flu shots (mainly because I just can't be bothered), friends and acquaintances have had various reactions. Some have no reactions whatsoever but it seems roughly 1/3 have some sort of fluey type reaction with a couple, may as well having the flu itself.
> 
> Which reminds me, I'm really due a tetanus booster.




On a side issue (he says derailing his own thread ), is Hendra virus still an issue ? Any vaccinations for that ?


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## satanoperca (21 August 2020)

For those that love knowledge and information,

https://www.vaccines.gov/basics/typ...inant, polysaccharide, and conjugate vaccines


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## satanoperca (21 August 2020)

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/vaccines-list.html

Even more interesting, looking at the list, I wish I had have been vaccinated.

I am and have been a walking petri dish. 

Measles (x3), Mumps, Varicella (x2 = Chickenpox), Shingles, Influenza (just a few times), all things that I could have been immunized from but have managed to escape Tuberculosis and while often it would seem that I have Rabies, so far the frothing at the mouth only lasts a short time.


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## wayneL (21 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> On a side issue (he says derailing his own thread ), is Hendra virus still an issue ? Any vaccinations for that ?



There is a vax that's been around a few years now.

It has been highly controversial with a high percentage of negative reactions especially laminitis. In my job I often see mild laminitic reactions, not enough to ruin the horse, but visible.

There is actually a class action against Zoetis  regarding it


https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2...aunched-against-hendra-vaccine-makers/9572480


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## cynic (21 August 2020)

I am so terribly grateful, to all those Australians, eagerly awaiting the coming Covid 19 vaccine:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...bility-claims-in-most-countries-idUSKCN24V2EN

Please! By all means, jump ahead of me in the queue!! I shall be more than happy to move as far to the back of the queue, as the coming legislation allows.

Perhaps, if enough guinea humans perish ahead of me, the chanting of the "correlation is not causation" mantra, will provide sufficient cover, for those of us remaining, to effect a quiet escape.


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## Knobby22 (22 August 2020)

cynic said:


> I am so terribly grateful, to all those Australians, eagerly awaiting the coming Covid 19 vaccine:
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...bility-claims-in-most-countries-idUSKCN24V2EN
> 
> ...



Two points.

1. If you are providing the vaccine at cost, as Astrozenica say they will, you want to be free of litigation. Particularly if you are providing it to a country where litigation is a national sport. It is just a sensible business decision. 

It does not mean an event 5 years after taking the vaccine is likely. It is very likely that anti vaxxers will fund a case given a chance though.

2. Once the population has generally vaccinated, all restrictions will be removed and the virus will travel freely and do as it may.

If you are willing to catch it in preference to a vaccine so be it; but I would look at your particular situation as if you have any pre existing conditions or are over 45 you will be taking a gamble. As share investors we are meant to be good at weighing risk.

And if like Wayne you think you have already caught it, but didn't get tested, then it is likely you didn't get it. Most tests come back negative so I wouldn't hang my hat on that.


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## wayneL (22 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> And if like Wayne you think you have already caught it, but didn't get tested, then it is likely you didn't get it.



Just to be clear I don't "think" I've had it.

More like "I wonder if I had it".


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## cynic (22 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Two points.
> 
> 1. If you are providing the vaccine at cost, as Astrozenica say they will, you want to be free of litigation. Particularly if you are providing it to a country where litigation is a national sport. It is just a sensible business decision.
> 
> ...



Righto then! 

Let's wait, watch, and see what happens when all accountability for the outcomes of one's product is completely stripped away!!

You think it's a gamble to forgo a vaccine that has been hastily rushed through testing! Fine!! I am more than happy to allow you to go first!!
No,no! No need for false courtesy, please do take my place in the queue! Better yet, you can have mine also if you like, since you think it’s that good!!!

But please, hold off just a moment more, whilst I brush the dust off my Ouija board (in preparation for needing it for receipt of your progress report).


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## Knobby22 (22 August 2020)

I want it tested properly before I take it of course. And as a pretty successful share investor I would suggest that the Ouija board is not a good way to assess risk.


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## cynic (22 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I want it tested properly before I take it of course...



Careful Knobby. You are beginning to sound like an anti-vaxxer!

BTW, just so you know for future reference, Ouija boards are traditionally used as a medium for communication with the spirits of the recently deceased.


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## SyBoo (22 August 2020)

Some side effects and percentages from the China-dote phase 2 trails.

“Severe adverse events (most commonly fever but also induration, headache, fatigue, dyspnea, and myalgia/arthralgia) occurred in 9% given the high dose and only 1% given the low dose. No serious or life-threatening adverse effects occurred.
https://www.aafp.org/journals/afp/content/covid-briefs.html”

“Severe adverse reactions were reported by 24 (9%) participants in the 1×10¹¹ viral particles dose group and one (1%) participant in the 5×10¹⁰ viral particles dose group. No serious adverse reactions were documented.”
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31605-6/fulltext

Numbers needed to treat ratio (NNT) = ????
Side note: Phase 1 trails stated in March, that's early.
(but then villains always have an antidote ready, don't they)


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## SirRumpole (24 August 2020)

The vaccine and the religious Right.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...warns-pm-against-coronavirus-vaccine/12588578


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## Smurf1976 (24 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Let's wait, watch, and see what happens when all accountability for the outcomes of one's product is completely stripped away!!
> 
> You think it's a gamble to forgo a vaccine that has been hastily rushed through testing! Fine!! I am more than happy to allow you to go first!!




The vaccine may be rushed but COVID-19 wasn't tested for safety at all.

If the choice is rushed testing but no problems found versus no testing at all well then I'll take the rushed testing.

Testing of course is just testing. What's commonly overlooked when it's claimed that something has been "tested" is what were the results of those tests? Plenty of products etc will claim to be tested but rarely does it state the results of those tests.

Yep, fish oil's been tested for mercury - that's great but now much mercury is in it? Ahh, well we're not telling you that sir, we're only telling you that we tested it.  Sounds silly but it's very common in practice that things are tested but the results are kept secret.


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## cynic (24 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The vaccine may be rushed but COVID-19 wasn't tested for safety at all.
> 
> If the choice is rushed testing but no problems found versus no testing at all well then I'll take the rushed testing.
> 
> ...



What you say would make plenty of sense, provided that covid19 were to prove to be deadly enough to tilt the risk/reward ratio in favour of some desperate methods.

The problem is, based upon what I can discern from the reports, this virus is likely to prove less deadly than the adverse reactions that will likely ensue from forcing a relatively untested vaccine upon the general populace.

How many 60, 70,80, 90 and 100 year olds are being accepted for testing in the safety trials?
How many people undergoing chemotherapy are accepted for testing in these trials?
Etcetera.

Now look at the demographic of the people reportedly succumbing to this purportedly deadly virus!

I am sure you can see why this might, be yet another strking example, of mankind's propensity to meet with destiny, on the very path taken, for avoidance of same.


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## macca (24 August 2020)

cynic said:


> What you say would make plenty of sense, provided that covid19 were to prove to be deadly enough to tilt the risk/reward ratio in favour of some desperate methods.
> 
> The problem is, based upon what I can discern from the reports, this virus is likely to prove less deadly than the adverse reactions that will likely ensue from forcing a relatively untested vaccine upon the general populace.
> 
> ...




I would love to know what % of people who have died have had the flu shot, I believe it would be extremely high

It is possible that having the flu shot makes one susceptible to a worse case of Covid because the people that have died mostly live in places where the flu shot is encouraged or is mandated

I am disappointed that so little research is being done on the sick here in OZ, what was their Vitamin D level ? What treatment were they given ?

In today's paper there was a photo of some poor sick soul and they are flat on their back, overseas the research shows that people should be on their stomach so that their lungs have room to move.

Oz medical people are very blinkered in their outlook and suffer from the "big fish, small pond" syndrome, just because they may have clocked up the most years of practice does not mean they know everything.

I have crossed paths with two locally and their egos are huge, they get really snooty when I quote international research that proves them wrong.

With one bloke I printed stuff out from an internationally recognised expert who gives lectures at world seminars as the lead speaker and took it along the next time, probably threw it in the bin


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## IFocus (24 August 2020)

A CDC China study classed 80.9% of COVID-19 cases as _Mild_, with the balance of 19.1% classed as _Severe_ or _Critical_, compared to a complication rate of just 3.0% for the Asian Flu.


http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/en/article/id/e53946e2-c6c4-41e9-9a9b-fea8db1a8f51


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## Dona Ferentes (24 August 2020)

there's a report out the FDA:
*US allows emergency use of blood plasma treatment for coronavirus patients*


> FDA had already approved the use of plasma transfusions on coronavirus patients under certain conditions, like those who are gravely ill or taking part in clinical trials.
> It has now given the treatment "emergency use authorisation", rather than full approval, saying that early research suggests blood plasma can decrease mortality and improve patient health if it's administered within the first three days of being admitted to hospital. However, more trials are needed to prove its effectiveness.






> The agency said it concluded it was safe after reviewing the results of 20,000 patients who had received the treatment so far.






> The FDA said people under the age of 80 who were not on a respirator and received plasma containing high levels of antibodies had benefited the most from the treatment, with a 35% better survival rate a month after the treatment than those who had received plasma with a low level of antibodies.


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## satanoperca (24 August 2020)

macca said:


> I would love to know what % of people who have died have had the flu shot, I believe it would be extremely high
> 
> It is possible that having the flu shot makes one susceptible to a worse case of Covid because the people that have died mostly live in places where the flu shot is encouraged or is mandated
> 
> ...




Macca, lets take a depth breath, maybe practise some meditation, regular exercise outside in the sunshine, be conscious of the fuel we put in our bodies etc


Breathing - a part of practicing yoga, could not help the mind and body, all those yogies that are fit and healthy beyond their age must be taking pharma drugs
Meditation - could not possibly help or assist in strengthing the immune system and supporting well beingness.
Exercise in the sunshine - could get cancer, not help with Vitamin D
Food - could not possibly be a correlation between the fuel that we put in our bodies and mental health, better take some of those pharma drugs
It is point 4, that pisses me off the most about the medical fraternity, they have just worked out the correlation, who would have thought, eat crap, feel crap.

So here we are, trusting the so called experts again, and the sheepie follow.

So for those the trust govnuts, take the vaccine, but when I have the choice to choose when to end my life, I might consider that someone else can dictate what I do with my body.


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## Knobby22 (24 August 2020)

Come on guys. This the vaccine news thread. Not the anti vaxxers sheepie thread.


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## satanoperca (24 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Come on guys. This the vaccine news thread. Not the anti vaxxers sheepie thread.




Bring it back on topic but adding something to the discussion


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## SyBoo (26 August 2020)

Australian vaccine candidate sets international benchmark

“All the results today show that it's safe and likely to provide protection against both the virus infection and the symptoms of disease.”

https://www.afr.com/policy/health-a...-sets-international-benchmark-20200825-p55p7k

*Congrats to UQ.*


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## Knobby22 (26 August 2020)

SyBoo said:


> Australian vaccine candidate sets international benchmark
> 
> “All the results today show that it's safe and likely to provide protection against both the virus infection and the symptoms of disease.”
> 
> ...




Thanks SyBoo.

The tech is the best (they were developing a cure for the common cold before Covid was heard of) and I have been mentioning it for 6 months as the worlds best hope. I think this will be the vaccine of choice for effectiveness and safety.


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## spooly74 (9 September 2020)




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## Knobby22 (9 September 2020)

spooly74 said:


>



Showing you can't rush it and cut corners no matter what the political needs are.


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## sptrawler (9 September 2020)

Full write up.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...rt-of-vaccine-trial-setback?srnd=premium-asia


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## macca (9 September 2020)

As Bill Gates said in that interview linked on here, 100% side effects is acceptable

They wonder why people are getting suspicious.......................


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## IFocus (9 September 2020)

Not unusual believe it or not a trial my mate is on had some one die......mate is still kicking and is benefiting from the trial would likely be dead without it.

Comes back to determining cause.


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## Knobby22 (9 September 2020)

macca said:


> As Bill Gates said in that interview linked on here, 100% side effects is acceptable
> 
> They wonder why people are getting suspicious.......................



Isn't Trump is planning to release a not fully tested vaccine soon? (Pretty sure its this particular one).
And Putin has already ( a different vaccine. )

I actually think Astrozenica released this information deliberately to stop it being released by Trump too early as it will really hurt them if it has side effects or doesn't work. He is getting it made now.


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## macca (9 September 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Isn't Trump is planning to release a not fully tested vaccine soon? (Pretty sure its this particular one).
> And Putin has already ( a different vaccine. )
> 
> I actually think Astrozenica released this information deliberately to stop it being released by Trump too early as it will really hurt them if it has side effects or doesn't work. He is getting it made now.




I know I am not the only one but I am so sick of politics hijacking everything, I suppose the incessant demands for new News 24/7 means that the Media grab anything they can get.

The virus is not that deadly that we need to run the risk of starting a new pandemic of sick people by injecting untested vaccines into millions of people.

There is a strong protocol for testing vaccines and any new medicine and those rules are there for a reason, to start using a vaccine that has not been thoroughly tested is foolish.


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## sptrawler (10 September 2020)

macca said:


> I know I am not the only one but I am so sick of politics hijacking everything, I suppose the incessant demands for new News 24/7 means that the Media grab anything they can get.
> 
> The virus is not that deadly that we need to run the risk of starting a new pandemic of sick people by injecting untested vaccines into millions of people.
> 
> There is a strong protocol for testing vaccines and any new medicine and those rules are there for a reason, to start using a vaccine that has not been thoroughly tested is foolish.



Also I am sure no company would rush out a vaccine, that they weren't confident of, not only would the bad publicity be unwelcomed the legal cost associated would send them broke.


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## satanoperca (10 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Also I am sure no company would rush out a vaccine, that they weren't confident of, not only would the bad publicity be unwelcomed the legal cost associated would send them broke.




True and false, let me explain.
"not only would the bad publicity be unwelcomed the legal cost associated" TRUE
"nwelcomed the legal cost associated would send them broke." FALSE, not if they are indemnified by desperate govnuts.


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## sptrawler (10 September 2020)

satanoperca said:


> True and false, let me explain.
> "not only would the bad publicity be unwelcomed the legal cost associated" TRUE
> "nwelcomed the legal cost associated would send them broke." FALSE, not if they are indemnified by desperate govnuts.



If it could be proven that a government circumvented protocol and forced the early release of a faulty vaccine, they would be in some serious manure, watergate2
That would be easier to prove, than who released the virus in the first place.


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## SirRumpole (13 September 2020)

Oxford/AstraZenica resumes vaccine trial.









						'Good news' as Oxford vaccine trial resumes after voluntary halt over patient's side effects
					

Regulators give researchers the green light to continue a study that was suspended when a patient in the UK reportedly suffered a side-effect.




					www.abc.net.au


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## cutz (13 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Oxford/AstraZenica resumes vaccine trial.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Should see a good rally in CSL heading into this week's opex


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## cynic (24 September 2020)

If the facts, upon which this opinion piece has been based, are correct, then our society may, yet again, be meeting its destiny on the path taken for avoidance of same:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...vid-19-vaccine-trials-designed-succeed-start/


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## Knobby22 (25 September 2020)

cynic said:


> If the facts, upon which this opinion piece has been based, are correct, then our society may, yet again, be meeting its destiny on the path taken for avoidance of same:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...vid-19-vaccine-trials-designed-succeed-start/



Just because Trump might accept ridiculous trial data and push the vaccine giving Moderna and Pfizer huge profits by giving it to the USA population, it does not follow that our government would act so recklessly.

In fact many of the pharmaceutical companies (8)have signed a  memorandum between themselves that they will not allow the vaccine to be spread before proper testing. Astrozenica is one of those companies.


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## DB008 (25 September 2020)

Cross post as l didn't see this thread.

*Australia's just signed up for a shot at nine COVID-19 vaccines.

Here's what to expect*​

Australia's $123 million contribution to a global vaccine initiative, announced earlier this week, means the country would have access to a wider pool of COVID-19 vaccines, should they pass clinical trials.​​The agreement with the World Health Organisation-backed COVAX initiative currently covers nine vaccines, with another nine being considered. These are to be shared with other member countries, rich and poor, by the end of 2021.​​However, the agreement may only cover up to half the doses Australia needs, if each person needs two doses. So countries are still free to negotiate their own vaccine deals with individual manufacturers, as Australia has done.​​Here's what you need to know about the nine vaccines COVAX is currently backing, which are at various stages of development.​​These include pre-clinical animal testing and human clinical trials, which move through three phases. During the pandemic, some of these phases have been combined.​
*1. INO-4800 comes with a zap*​*2. Moderna's mRNA-1273 is in phase 3*​*3. Germany's CVnCoV may have one or two doses*​*4. TMV-083 uses a version of the measles vaccine*​*5. AZD1222, the Oxford vaccine*​*6. Modified flu vaccine delivered up the nose*​*7. NVX-CoV2373 was tested in Australia*​*8. SCB-2019 is another protein subunit vaccine*​*9. University of Queensland's 'molecular clamp' vaccine*​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...or-shot-at-nine-coronavirus-vaccines/12698082​


I would go Moderna RNA vaccine id given a choice, not sure if we will get a choice.


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## DB008 (25 September 2020)

*Moderna Wants to Transform the Body Into a Vaccine-Making Machine*​​The U.S. company and its German rival BioNTech plan to use RNA as a messenger inside cells to produce an immune reaction. The advance could upend vaccine development long after the pandemic.​​Almost every antiviral vaccine ever sold works in a similar way: A dead or weakened virus, or a piece of one, is introduced into a healthy person. The weakened virus stimulates the immune system to generate antibodies, protecting the person when the real pathogen threatens to infect them.​​Over the decades, this tried-and-true approach has vanquished polio, eradicated smallpox, and reined in chicken pox, measles, and mumps.​​But vaccine production has never been simple or fast. Many flu vaccines are still grown in chicken eggs. Newer approaches draw on genetic engineering to eliminate the need for whole viruses, but their viral proteins are still grown inside live cells.​​The coronavirus vaccines from Moderna Inc., in Cambridge, Mass., and its German rival BioNTech SE propose to immunize people in a radically different way: by harnessing human cells to become miniature vaccine factories in their own right. Instead of virus proteins, the vaccines contain genetic instructions that prompt the body to produce them. Those instructions are carried via messenger RNA, or mRNA.​​Moderna’s mRNA-1273 consists of a strand of mRNA that tells the body to produce the spike protein the coronavirus uses to latch onto human cells. The strand is like one side of a zipper; the “teeth” are a sequence of chemical letters that cells read to produce the 1,273 amino acids that make up the spike protein. If the vaccine works as intended, the body will start producing the proteins soon after injection, prompting the immune system to react and build up protective antibodies against them.​​The great advantages of mRNA vaccines are speed and flexibility. No finicky live cells or hard-to-handle viruses are needed, and the basic chemistry is straightforward. Moderna’s vaccine reached Phase I human trials on March 16, only 63 days after the company began developing it. And at 6:43 a.m. on July 27, the first volunteer in Moderna’s 30,000-person, final-stage efficacy trial in the U.S. received an injection. Less than 12 hours later, BioNTech and its partner, Pfizer Inc., said they, too, were beginning a late-stage trial, a study that will be conducted in the U.S., Brazil, and several other countries. They took advantage of mRNA’s rapid-response capability to create four slightly different vaccines, which they compared in initial trials before selecting the best one for large-scale testing.​​In Phase I trials, both the Moderna and BioNTech-Pfizer vaccines stimulated people’s immune systems to produce antibodies that neutralized the virus in lab experiments, a positive initial sign. “This is a relatively new platform, but it is looking quite good,” Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said after the results of Moderna’s Phase I trial, sponsored by NIAID, were published. “Neutralizing antibodies are the gold standard of protection.” Moderna, which has worked with NIAID for years, is receiving $955 million from the U.S. government to support its coronavirus trials.​​How well mRNA vaccines will actually prevent Covid-19 remains unknown. No vaccine based on messenger RNA has ever been approved for any disease, or even entered final-stage trials until now, so there’s little published human data to compare how mRNA stacks up against older technologies. And the vaccines have hardly been free of side effects: In Moderna’s Phase I trial, all 15 of the patients who received the median of three dose sizes reported at least one side effect, though none were severe. Three of the 15 patients at the highest dose had temporary severe reactions. That dosage won’t be tested further.​​Still, the accumulating data has some mRNA skeptics warming to the technology. “I don’t see the reason for focusing on mRNA vaccines. I don’t get that,” Peter Jay Hotez, dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, said in an interview in early June. “The old-fashioned vaccines may do a better job.” In late July he said his opinion had shifted based on encouraging monkey and human trial results. Moderna’s vaccine “is showing promise,” he said. “There is enough of a glimmer to warrant continuing its clinical development and progressing to larger clinical trials.”​


More on link below....

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-moderna-biontech-covid-shot/​


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## DB008 (25 September 2020)

*Chinese company says coronavirus vaccine ready by early 2021*​
BEIJING — A Chinese pharmaceutical company said Thursday the coronavirus vaccine it is developing should be ready by early 2021 for distribution worldwide, including the United States.​​Yin Weidong, the CEO of SinoVac, vowed to apply to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to sell CoronaVac in the United States if it passes its third and final round of testing in humans. Yin said he personally has been given the experimental vaccine.​​"At the very beginning, our strategy was designed for China and for Wuhan. Soon after that in June and July we adjusted our strategy, that is to face the world," Yin said, referring to the Chinese city were the virus first emerged.​​"Our goal is to provide the vaccine to the world including the U.S., EU and others," Yin said.​​Stringent regulations in the U.S., European Union, Japan and Australia have historically blocked the sale of Chinese vaccines. But Yin said that could change.​​SinoVac is developing one of China's top four vaccine candidates along with state-owned SinoPharm, which has two in development, and military-affiliated private firm CanSino.​​More than 24,000 people are currently participating in clinical trials of CoronaVac in Brazil, Turkey, and Indonesia, with additional trials scheduled for Bangladesh and possibly Chile, Yin said. SinoVac chose those countries because they all had serious outbreaks, large populations and limited research and development capacity, he said.​​SinoVac is also starting to test small doses of CoronaVac on children and the elderly in China after noticing rising numbers of cases globally among those two groups.​​Yin said the company would prioritize distribution of the vaccine to countries hosting human trials of CoronaVac.​​While the vaccine has not yet passed the phase 3 clinical trials, a globally accepted standard, SinoVac has already injected thousands of people in China under an emergency use provision.​​Yin said he was one of the first to receive the experimental vaccine months ago along with researchers after phase one and two of human trials showed no serious adverse effects. He said that self-injecting showed his support for CoronaVac.​

https://www.startribune.com/chinese-company-says-coronavirus-vaccine-ready-by-early-2021/572518911/
​


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## DB008 (26 September 2020)

*Why so many people are hopeful about an mRNA coronavirus vaccine*​

The whole world is watching — including investors and public health specialists — as more than 30 biotech and pharmaceutical companies race to develop a safe Covid-19 vaccine.​​But there’s a big question lingering over the process: How do we balance safety with speed?​​The process is moving quickly with several vaccine candidates entering late stage trials in a matter of months. Pfizer and biotech Moderna are two of the companies the White House has chosen to fast track through the FDA’s regulatory process. Both companies are attempting to use messenger RNA, or mRNA, to produce their vaccines, a technology that has never before received regulatory approval.​







https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/25/race-for-coronavirus-vaccine-mrna-moderna-pfizer.html


.​


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## satanoperca (30 September 2020)

Still, no vaccine, what a surprise, believers are like flat earthers, deny the science.


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## Knobby22 (30 September 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Still, no vaccine, what a surprise, believers are like flat earthers, deny the science.



You mean  Trump. He said just today it is weeks away. Don't think anyone else did, especially on this thread.


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## DB008 (13 October 2020)

*Johnson & Johnson pauses COVID-19 vaccine trial after participant experiences unexplained illness*​

Johnson & Johnson says it has temporarily paused its COVID-19 vaccine candidate clinical trials due to an unexplained illness in a study participant, delaying one of the highest-profile efforts to contain the global pandemic.​​The participant's illness is being reviewed and evaluated by an independent data and safety monitoring board as well as the company's clinical and safety physicians, the company said.​​J&J, which reports quarterly financial results on Tuesday, said that such pauses are normal in big trials, which can include tens of thousands of people. It said the "study pause" in giving doses of the vaccine candidate was different from a "regulatory hold" required by health authorities. The current case is a pause.​​However, J&J's move follows a similar one by AstraZeneca Plc. In September, AstraZeneca paused late-stage trials of its experimental coronavirus vaccine, developed with the University of Oxford, due to an unexplained illness in a UK study participant.​​While trials in the UK, Brazil, South Africa and India have resumed, the US trial is still on hold pending a regulatory review.​

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10...19-vaccine-trial-coronavirus-illness/12761752​


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## DB008 (13 October 2020)

*India's first coronavirus vaccine: Here is everything we know
about its development*​

The whole world is waiting eagerly for an effective vaccine to fight the coronavirus pandemic. It has not only claimed lives, but also impacted people, both physically and mentally. There are more than 170 vaccines in progress right now, but closer home we have our hopes pinned on India’s first vaccine called Covaxin.​​Under normal circumstances, researchers and scientists take years before formulating and releasing a vaccine, however, the global impact of COVID on humankind has pressed a ‘forward’ button on all vaccines, where it is safe to expect a vaccine in the next 4-5 months (within a span of 12-18 months).​​Covaxin, the vaccine candidate developed by Bharat Biotech in collaboration with Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) is in Phase 2 clinical trial in the country. And now the makers have sought approval from drug regulators to start the third phase clinical trial. As per reports, the Drugs Controller General of India (DGCI) has asked Bharat Biotech to submit "complete safety and immunogenicity data of the phase II trial" and some clarifications before proceeding for the next stage.​​The results of their animal-based trial of the vaccine were found to be favourable. "The vaccine candidate was found to generate robust immune responses. Thus, preventing infection and disease in the primates upon high amounts of exposure to live SARS-CoV-2 virus."​​The vaccine candidate has been tested in 12 hospitals across India, where volunteers between the ages of 18 and 55 participated in the trial. These volunteers had no co-morbidities. The places where the trial took place include Hyderabad, Delhi, Goa, Rohtak, Patna, Kancheepuram and Bhubaneswar, among other places.​

More on link below...

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...bout-its-development/articleshow/78613573.cms​


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## IFocus (13 October 2020)

Hopefully (long shot) one of the new tech vaccines works that would be a game changer.


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## moXJO (14 October 2020)

On the Russian vaccination
https://112.international/politics/...ccine-work-and-will-ukraine-buy-it-55544.html


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## DB008 (17 October 2020)

*Pfizer to seek vaccine approval in November*​

US drugmaker will seek go-ahead for emergency use after reaching 'safety milestone'​
WASHINGTON" The US pharmaceutical giant Pfizer expects to file for emergency use authorisation for its Covid-19 vaccine in late November, around two weeks after the Nov 3 US presidential election, it said on Friday.

The company said it hopes to move ahead with the vaccine after safety data is available in the third week of November, immediately lifting the company's shares two percent in the US.

"So let me be clear, assuming positive data, Pfizer will apply for Emergency Authorisation Use in the US soon after the safety milestone is achieved in the third week of November," the company's chairman and CEO Albert Bourla said in an open letter.

The announcement means the United States could have two vaccines ready by the end of the year, with the Massachussetts biotech firm Moderna aiming for Nov 25 to seek authorisation.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA), which authorises pharmaceuticals for distribution in the US, asked vaccine developers last week to spend two months monitoring for serious side effects after the second dose is given to trial participants.

The FDA will require the vaccine to prove effective and safe, while Pfizer will have to demonstrate it is capable of producing large-scale production. Pfizer is partnering with the German company BioNTech on the research.

Pfizer and Moderna, both with funding assistance from the US government, launched Phase 3 of their clinical trials at the end of July, and both have started production of doses. They aim to be in a position to deliver tens of millions of doses to the US by the end of the year.

Bourla said the Pfizer trial, involving 30,000 participants, might produce results on the vaccine's efficacy within the next two weeks.

"I've said before, we are operating at the speed of science. This means we may know whether or not our vaccine is effective by the end of October," he said.​

https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/2003415/pfizer-to-seek-vaccine-authorisation-in-november​


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## DB008 (19 October 2020)

*Johns Hopkins Researchers Identify Immune System Pathway That
May Stop COVID-19 Infection*








*Blocking Immune System Pathway May Stop COVID-19 Infection, Prevent Severe Organ Damage*​

While the world waits eagerly for a safe and effective vaccine to prevent infections from severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the virus behind the COVID-19 pandemic, researchers also are focusing on better understanding how SARS-CoV-2 attacks the body in the search for other means of stopping its devastating impact. The key to one possibility — blocking a protein that enables the virus to turn the immune system against healthy cells — has been identified in a recent study by a team of Johns Hopkins Medicine researchers.​​Based on their findings, the researchers believe that inhibiting the protein, known as factor D, also will curtail the potentially deadly inflammatory reactions that many patients have to the virus.​​Making the discovery even more exciting is that there may already be drugs in development and testing for other diseases that can do the required blocking.​​The study was published recently in the journal _Blood_.​​Scientists already know that spike proteins on the surface of the SARS-CoV-2 virus — making the pathogen look like the spiny ball from a medieval mace — are the means by which it attaches to cells targeted for infection. To do this, the spikes first grab hold of heparan sulfate, a large, complex sugar molecule found on the surface of cells in the lungs, blood vessels and smooth muscle making up most organs. Facilitated by its initial binding with heparan sulfate, SARS-CoV-2 then uses another cell-surface component, the protein known as angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), as its doorway into the attacked cell.​​The Johns Hopkins Medicine team discovered that when SARS-CoV-2 ties up heparan sulfate, it prevents factor H from using the sugar molecule to bind with cells. Factor H’s normal function is to regulate the chemical signals that trigger inflammation and keep the immune system from harming healthy cells. Without this protection, cells in the lungs, heart, kidneys and other organs can be destroyed by the defense mechanism nature intended to safeguard them.​​“Previous research has suggested that along with tying up heparan sulfate, SARS-CoV-2 activates a cascading series of biological reactions — what we call the alternative pathway of complement, or APC — that can lead to inflammation and cell destruction if misdirected by the immune system at healthy organs,” says study senior author Robert Brodsky, M.D., director of the hematology division at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. “The goal of our study was to discover how the virus activates this pathway and to find a way to inhibit it before the damage happens.”​​The APC is one of three chain reaction processes involving the splitting and combining of more than 20 different proteins — known as complement proteins — that usually gets activated when bacteria or viruses invade the body. The end product of this complement cascade, a structure called membrane attack complex (MAC), forms on the surface of the invader and causes its destruction, either by creating holes in bacterial membranes or disrupting a virus’ outer envelope. However, MACs also can arise on the membranes of healthy cells. Fortunately, humans have a number of complement proteins, including factor H, that regulate the APC, keep it in check and therefore, protect normal cells from damage by MACs.​​In a series of experiments, Brodsky and his colleagues used normal human blood serum and three subunits of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein to discover exactly how the virus activates the APC, hijacks the immune system and endangers normal cells. They discovered that two of the subunits, called S1 and S2, are the components that bind the virus to heparan sulfate — setting off the APC cascade and blocking factor H from connecting with the sugar — and in turn, disabling the complement regulation by which factor H deters a misdirected immune response.​​In turn, the researchers say, the resulting immune system response to chemicals released by the lysing of killed cells could be responsible for the organ damage and failures seen in severe cases of COVID-19.​​Most notably, Brodsky says, the research team found by blocking another complement protein, known as factor D, which works immediately upstream in the pathway from factor H, they were able to stop the destructive chain of events triggered by SARS-CoV-2.​

More on link below...

https://scitechdaily.com/johns-hopk...tem-pathway-that-may-stop-covid-19-infection/
​


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## DB008 (19 October 2020)

Further to post #70

*Coronavirus vaccine rolls off production line in Belgium*​
A coronavirus vaccine on track for the new year is rolling off the production line.​​Pfizer has manufactured hundreds of doses of the drug in Belgium.​​It comes as Astra Zeneca, the company behind the vaccine Australia is aligned with, says the jab could be available as soon as Christmas.​​However, Pfizer's CEO announced on Friday in the US, it cannot request emergency authorisation of its COVID-19 vaccine before the third week of November - and that's if everything goes well.​​Despite President Donald Trump's repeated promises of a vaccine before Election Day, scientists have been cautioning that it's unlikely data showing a leading shot actually works would come until November or December.​​Another leading US contender, Moderna Inc, previously announced the earliest it could seek authorization of its own vaccine would be November 25.​​Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla has long said it's possible testing might reveal by the end of October if his company's vaccine actually protects against the coronavirus.​​But in Friday's announcement, he made clear that effectiveness is only part of the equation.​​The vaccine also must be proven safe. And to qualify for an "emergency use authorization," any COVID-19 vaccine must track at least half the participants in large-scale studies for two months after their second dose, the time period in which side effects are likely to appear.​​Mr Bourla estimated Pfizer's 44,000-person study will reach that milestone in the third week of November.​​"We are operating at the speed of science," he wrote in a letter posted to the company's website.​​The vaccine made by Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech are among several leading candidates in final testing.​​Even if a vaccine emerges by year's end, only limited doses will be available right away.​​The US government is deciding who would be first in line, almost certainly health care workers, and estimates there may be enough for​widespread vaccinations in the spring.​


Coronavirus vaccine rolls off production line in Belgium​


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## cynic (19 October 2020)

Making haste whilst exercising an "abundance of caution" - as if anything could ever, possibly go wrong!

https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-update-october-14-6725217/


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## DB008 (21 October 2020)

*Moderna CEO reportedly expects coronavirus vaccine
interim results in November*​


*Key Points*​

Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel expects interim results from its Covid-19 vaccine trial in November, The Wall Street Journal reported.


Bancel also told the Journal the U.S Food and Drug Administration could give an emergency use authorization before the end of the year.


Moderna Chief Executive Officer Stéphane Bancel expects interim results from its Covid-19 vaccine trial in November and said the U.S government could give an emergency use nod in December, The Wall Street Journal reported on Monday.​​Speaking at the newspaper’s annual Tech Live conference, Bancel also said sufficient interim results from the study takes longer to get and that the government’s permission to use the vaccine may not come until next year.​​The first interim analysis of the vaccine’s efficacy will happen when 53 people in the entire study get symptomatic Covid-19, the report said.​​“That first analysis is likely to occur in November, but it’s hard to predict exactly which week because it depends on the cases, the number of people getting sick,” the report quoted Bancel as saying.​​Bancel had told Financial Times last month that Moderna would not be ready to apply for emergency use of its Covid-19 vaccine before Nov. 25 at the earliest.​​Bancel also highlighted that a ramping up of production is a challenge. “If one ingredient is missing, we cannot make the vaccine,” as per the Journal’s report.​​Moderna is on track to produce 20 million doses of its experimental vaccine by the end of the year, the company had said last month, adding that 25,296 participants had enrolled out of a planned 30,000 in its late-stage study.​​Drugmakers are racing to develop a Covid-19 vaccine, with more than 150 potential vaccines being developed and tested globally.​​Besides Moderna, Pfizer, and AstraZeneca, among others, are front-runners to develop the vaccine.​


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/20/mod...irus-vaccine-interim-results-in-november.html



.​


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## DB008 (21 October 2020)

*'**China's potential vaccines show no adverse reaction’*


*Health official says China has 13 vaccine candidates, 4 of them administered on ‘emergency basis’*​

China claimed on Tuesday that its experimental vaccines for protection against COVID-19 have shown “no adverse reaction."​​“So far, none of those who have received the ‘emergency use’ vaccine have shown severe adverse reactions," Zheng Zhongwei, a top official at China’s National Health Commission, was quoted as saying by the state-run Global Times newspaper.​​Pharma giants in many countries have resisted the idea of taking a shortcut in rolling out an antigen for the novel virus.​​China and Russia, however, have started vaccinating a select group of people with experimental shots, prompting a debate on risks of administering untested treatments on the public.​​Zheng said the country has 13 vaccine candidates entering clinical trials, including four in Phase III trials.​​“Sixty thousand volunteers have received four experimental vaccines... the difficulty now is in carrying out the trials as China's epidemic has been brought under control,” he said.​​The official added that the emergency use of vaccines in China is “in line with the relevant laws concerning drug and vaccine development, which goes through a rigorous scientific argumentation process and approval process."​​“Some Chinese who went abroad received their vaccinations voluntarily... so far, none of them have reported adverse side effects,” he said, adding that the price of Chinese COVID-19 vaccines “will certainly be within a scope that the public can accept."​​Earlier this month, China joined Covax, an international initiative to distribute COVID-19 vaccines to countries worldwide. Some 172 states except the US, Russia and a few others, are participating in the program led by the World Health Organization, the GAVI vaccine alliance, and the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations.​​More than 100 coronavirus vaccines are in development across the world to ease the global crisis.​​The disease has infected more than 40 million people and killed 1.1 million in 189 countries, according to the latest figures by US-based John Hopkins University.​


https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/chinas-potential-vaccines-show-no-adverse-reaction-/2012562


.​


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## Value Collector (21 October 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Are there any listed pharmacies ?




Brickworks Ltd.


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## DB008 (22 October 2020)

Wasn't sure which thread to put this in...


*60-second breath test to detect COVID-19*​

Breathonix Pte Ltd, a spin-off company from NUS, has developed an easy-to-use breath test to detect COVID-19 within a minute. This game-changing technology, which is believed to be the first in Asia, achieved more than 90 per cent accuracy in a Singapore-based pilot clinical trial that involved 180 patients.​​Breathonix was founded by two NUS graduates, Dr Jia Zhunan and Mr Du Fang, and is supported by the NUS Graduate Research Innovation Programme (GRIP), a scheme that encourages the University’s talented graduate students and research staff to establish and run high potential start-ups based on deep technologies.​​“Our breath test is easy to administer, and it does not require specially-trained staff or laboratory processing. Results are generated in real-time, making it an attractive solution for mass screening, especially in areas with high human traffic. We believe our breath analysis platform shows promise in changing the tides of this pandemic,” said Dr Jia, Chief Executive Officer of Breathonix.​

​



*Non-invasive, real-time diagnosis *​​Rapid identification of individuals who are COVID-19 positive is crucial for contact tracing and helps to reduce virus transmission. The current gold standard for COVID-19 screening involves a swab test, which may be uncomfortable, and diagnosis using polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests can take a few hours.​​The revolutionary breath analysis technology developed by Breathonix offers a fast and convenient solution to identify COVID-19 infection. It works by detecting Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) present in a person’s exhaled breath.​​Dr Jia explained, "VOCs are consistently produced by various biochemical reactions in human cells. Different diseases cause specific changes to the compounds, resulting in detectable changes in a person’s breath profile. As such, VOCs can be measured as markers for diseases like COVID-19.”​​The test is simple to administer. A person only needs to blow into a disposable mouthpiece connected to a high-precision breath sampler. The exhaled breath is collected and fed into a cutting-edge mass spectrometer for measurement. A machine learning software analyses the VOC profile and generates the result in less than a minute.​​“The disposable mouthpiece that our system uses has a one-way valve and a saliva trap, preventing inhalation and any saliva from entering the machine. This makes cross-contamination unlikely,” said Mr Du, Chief Operating Officer of Breathonix.​


More on link below...


https://news.nus.edu.sg/research/60-second-breath-test-detect-covid-19


.​


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## DB008 (22 October 2020)

*Covid-19: Point of care test reports 94% sensitivity and 100% specificity compared with laboratory test*​

A point of care covid-19 test—which the UK government plans to roll out across the country—can provide results in 90 minutes with 94% sensitivity and 100% specificity when compared with standard polymerase chain reaction (PCR) testing, according to a study from the manufacturers.1​​The study, published in _Lancet Microbe_, tested the CovidNudge real time PCR platform between 2 April and 18 May 2020 at three London hospitals, with 449 same day samples collected. Two swabs were taken per person, with the samples then being tested in parallel using the point of care test and the standard PCR test.​​Researchers have said that the test can quickly tell whether patients are infected. Currently, laboratory based PCR testing takes around four to six hours, and when transportation of clinical samples is factored in the turnaround time often exceeds 24 hours, which can result in “delays in diagnoses and inappropriate infection control precautions,” the authors said.​​The CovidNudge test does not require laboratory processing. Lead author of the study, Graham Cooke, stressed, however, that this test is not likely to be used for mass testing at events attended by thousands of people because the machine can only process one test at a time, with a maximum of 15 tests per machine each day.​​The UK government has placed an order for 5.8m of the testing kits, which it intends to roll out across the nation.2 The test was mentioned in the leaked Moonshot documents, revealed by _The BMJ_, as part of the government’s plan to test the whole population every week from early 2021.3​​The CovidNudge test involves a nasopharyngeal swab, which is inserted directly into a cartridge containing all reagents and components required for RT-PCR reactions.​​The study included complete clinical data paired with laboratory tests for 386 samples, of which, 67 tested positive on the CovidNudge point of care platform and 71 with standard laboratory RT-PCR. The overall sensitivity of the point of care test compared with laboratory based testing was 94% (95% confidence interval 86 to 98) with an overall specificity of 100% (99 to 100), reported researchers.​​One key feature of the test is the inclusion of human ribonuclease P control in the testing cartridge, which helps ensure that the sample is good enough to be tested. Speaking at the Science Media Centre briefing on the study, Cooke, professor of infectious diseases at Imperial College London, said, “We hear a lot about false negatives, a lot of these are actually because the test has not been taken well enough. This has a positive control on it so you can tell if someone has taken the test well enough.”​​He added, “We have run over 10 000 tests now in clinical practice and people are comfortable with using it. We think this is a useful part of the whole puzzle for diagnostics. This is well sited for clinical settings where you are trying to make a rapid decision for a patient.”​


More on link below...

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3682


.​


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## cynic (22 October 2020)

This certainly leaves one wondering :- What on Earth have they been putting in their placebos?!
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/oxford-...rst-death-reported-during-a-coronavirus-trial


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## DB008 (24 October 2020)

*US FDA approves use of Gilead's remdesivir for hospitalised
coronavirus patients*​
The US Food and Drug Administration has approved Gilead Sciences' antiviral drug remdesivir for treating patients hospitalised with COVID-19, making it the first and only drug approved for the disease in the United States.​​Remdesivir, given intravenously, was one of the drugs used to treat US President Donald Trump during his bout of COVID-19 in early October.​​The drug had been approved for emergency use in COVID-19 patients in early May, after a study led by the National Institutes of Health showed it reduced hospital stays by five days.​​However it has not been proven to significantly help moderately ill patients, and many doctors remain wary of using it in patients with less severe illness.​​The FDA's formal approval for the drug's widespread use on Thursday (local time) came just hours before the President's final debate with Democratic rival Joe Biden ahead of the November 3 presidential election.​​However, the World Health Organization (WHO) last week said its global trial of COVID-19 therapies found that remdesivir did not have a substantial effect on patients' length of hospital stay or chances of survival.​


More on link below...


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10...a-approval-for-hospitalised-covid-19/12806434


.​


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## DB008 (24 October 2020)

*Coronavirus: Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine 'behaves as desired', analysis finds*​
*Scientists at Bristol University used cutting edge technology to study the make-up of the inoculation.*​​​The COVID-19 vaccine being developed by Oxford University and AstraZeneca has been shown to work as planned by new analysis.​​A method to check the inoculation contains all the correct parts was developed by a team at Bristol University, providing greater evidence that the vaccine works.​​Even though the research has not yet been peer reviewed, it has been hailed as a "wonderful example of cross-disciplinary collaboration".​​The vaccine is currently undergoing Phase 3 clinical trials to further establish the safety of the treatment.​

More on link below...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ne-behaves-as-desired-analysis-finds-12111085


.​


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## Knobby22 (24 October 2020)

I have a bit of hope for the Astrozenica vaccine (previous post).

The Pfizer vaccine however probably doesn't work hence the rush to get it out before there are results and there is no way I will take it as a placebo. 
They were going to release it on election day as per Trumps wish but cooler heads have prevailed, I expect some senior Republicans decided the risk and long term damage to vaccines and the  GOP name could be long lasting.


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## cynic (24 October 2020)

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31604-4/fulltext

They're using a meningococcal vaccine as a placebo!!!


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## DB008 (26 October 2020)

*Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine could be available 'within weeks' and Ireland would be one of the first countries to get it*​

*The vaccine involves two doses and is being tested on 44,000 people aged 12 and upwards*​

The boss at the Irish branch of one of the world's biggest drug companies has raised hopes of a coronavirus vaccine "within weeks"​​Paul Reid, managing director of Pfizer Ireland, has told a national newspaper that his firm's experimental jab could be approved by the end of next month and Ireland could be among the first to receive a batch.​​Pfizer, who have a base in Cork, already has 100 million doses ready and is waiting for the green light from authorities in Europe and the US.​​Mr Reid told the Irish Independent the vaccine involves two doses and is being tested on 44,000 people aged 12 and upwards.​​He said: "We are accelerating through the clinical trial programme at breakneck speed.​​"We are seeing a speed of recruitment into the trials that we have never seen before. Already 40,000 have been recruited.​​"We have over 35,000 participants who received the second dose of the vaccine."​​A spokesperson for Pfizer Ireland told CorkBeo that submitting the vaccine for emergency use authorisation to the US Food and Drug Administration and the European Medicines Agency next month were major milestones.​​Mr Reid said: "We are going to have to demonstrate the quality and consistency of the vaccine.​​"We are trying to be as open as possible.​​"We are sharing any conclusive read-out data, whether positive or negative, within a few days after independent scientists see it.​"The positivity around the vaccine is predicated on good science so far."​


More on link below...


https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-could-19160124



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## DB008 (26 October 2020)

*The COVID-19 vaccine rollout presents a number of logistical challenges
not all countries will overcome*​

Finding a vaccine that protects us against coronavirus is the first challenge.​​The second challenge will be getting that jab — or jabs — widely available, across all corners of the world, to enable any return to pre-COVID normal.​​Vaccine technologies are intellectual property, meaning researchers need to undergo legal licensing procedures to pair up with a manufacturer.​​University of Queensland biotechnology professor Linda Lua said the COVID-19 vaccine was not exempt from that process.​​"The different vaccine technologies belong to the researchers," Professor Lua said.​​"[And] every vaccine will have a different arrangement depending on which country it started in."​​Given the global implications of COVID-19, some researchers are licensing their vaccine technologies to multiple manufacturers around the world so that the vaccine can be produced domestically to reduce transport time, cost and risk.​​All vaccines have to be transported through what is known as a "cold chain", where the vaccines remain refrigerated as they move through the different stages of shipping — from manufacturer to port, then to another country and to clinics.​​But many vaccines have special requirements for transport — some are extremely fragile and others have to stay in freezing temperatures — and in some of these cases, these require expensive equipment.​​Take the frontrunning vaccines being developed in the US by Moderna and Pfizer/ BioNTech — neither of which are part of the Australian Government's current vaccine plan as local manufacturer CSL does not have the technology to mass-produce either vaccine in Australia.​​Essentially, scientists from both teams are trying to genetically engineer a harmless version of COVID-19 that triggers the body's immune response — think of it like 3D-printing a synthetic model of the virus.​​The man-made RNA (which viruses have instead of DNA) is coated in a bubble of fat and then injected into the body.​​For the Moderna vaccine, the temperature must stay around -20C. For Pfizer's, it's more like -70C.​​Once thawed, Moderna's vaccine can then last for 14 days at normal fridge temperatures. For Pfizer's, it is five days.​​Pfizer says it has developed its own thermal shipping boxes that can hold up to 5,000 doses for up to 10 days, company senior director Brian Gleeson told a meeting at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).​​But it says the containers should not be opened more than twice a day or for more than one minute at a time — which, experts say, is not enough time to sort through 5,000 doses.​​The boxes need dry ice to keep cold — approximately 23 kilograms to be replenished within 24 hours after the box is first opened, and then five days after.​​This presents major challenges for rural and developing areas.​

More on link below...


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-25/the-logistics-of-lab-to-jab-covid-19-vaccine/12808914


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## DB008 (27 October 2020)

*Survey uncovers widespread belief in 'dangerous' Covid conspiracy theories*
​*False claims that pandemic is a hoax or was started deliberately are attracting adherents around world*​
​​Significant numbers of people around the world believe Covid-19 was created deliberately, has killed far fewer people than reported, or is a hoax and does not actually exist, according to a global survey.​​Along with belief in other conspiracy theories – such as that the world is run by a secret cabal – the YouGov-Cambridge Globalism Project, a survey of about 26,000 people in 25 countries designed in collaboration with the Guardian, found widespread and concerning scepticism about vaccine safety.​​Among the most widely believed Covid conspiracies is that the death rate of the virus, which according to the Johns Hopkins University tracker has so far killed nearly 1.1 million people worldwide, has been “deliberately and greatly exaggerated”. Nearly 60% of respondents in Nigeria said this was definitely or probably true, along with more than 40% in Greece, South Africa, Poland and Mexico. About 38% of Americans, 36% of Hungarians, 30% of Italians and 28% of Germans felt the same.​​There is evidence the coronavirus pandemic has prompted some people to say they trust experts more, but it has also triggered a wave of disinformation and fake news propagated by science deniers and conspiracy theorists that has spread virally on social networks.​​“Any scary event – a pandemic, a mass shooting – that denies people a sense of control will lead to a proliferation of conspiracy theories,” said Stephan Lewandowsky, a cognitive psychologist at the University of Bristol who is an expert on misinformation.​​“They give people a sense of psychological comfort: the feeling that they are not at the mercy of randomness. They’re dangerous at any time, but more so in a pandemic if they lead people to ignore official advice, or commit acts of vandalism or violence.”​​But conspiracy theories also thrived on “governments’ inability to have a clear message”, said Lewandowsky. “They are another reason why we all need clear, consistent, evidence-based policymaking that can be trusted.”​​Among other countries, roughly one in four French and one in five British and Spanish respondents believed the death rate of the virus had been exaggerated, while Australians, Swedes and Japanese were more likely to dismiss such a belief.​​Significant numbers also thought the virus had been “deliberately created and spread” by the Chinese or US government, while in Poland one in five people believed it was definitely or probably a complete myth, created by unidentified “powerful forces”. Roughly the same proportions in Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia said they agreed with that proposition, while in the US the figure reached 13%.​​The false claim that 5G mobile technology is to blame for the spread of Covid-19 also has plenty of adherents, according to the survey, which was conducted in July and August.​​More than a fifth of respondents in Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria and South Africa believed it was definitely or probably true that symptoms were “caused or enhanced by the direct, physical effects on the human body” of 5G.​​More than half of Nigerians, more than 40% of South Africans, Poles and Turks, more than 35% of Americans, Brazilians and Spaniards and between one in four and one in five French, British, Italian and German respondents believed it was definitely or probably true that Covid-19 had been deliberately created and spread by the Chinese government.​​Significant numbers also thought the US government was responsible for creating and spreading the virus: as many as 37% of respondents in Turkey, against one in five in Greece and Spain, 16% in Poland, 12% in France and just 5% in the UK. About 17% of American citizens said they believed it was definitely or probably true that their own government was to blame.​​The survey also tested belief levels in common non-Covid conspiracy theories, finding between 20% and 30% support in 10 countries – including South Africa, Brazil, Hungary and Poland – for the belief that manmade global heating was “a hoax invented to deceive”.​​Similar proportions thought the moon landings were faked, while between 20% and 30% of respondents in Spain, France, the US, Italy and Germany thought the US government “knowingly helped make the 9/11 terrorist attacks happen”. Between 20% and 44% of people in 17 countries believed or thought it likely that humans had made contact with aliens.​


More on link below...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ad-belief-dangerous-covid-conspiracy-theories



.​


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## DB008 (2 November 2020)

*Australia's COVID-19 vaccine rollout plan revealed:

Elderly, health workers to be treated first*​


Australia's Health Minister Greg Hunt has said that when a COVID-19 vaccine becomes available the elderly, health care professionals and aged care workers will be first in line to receive it.​​Addressing the media this morning, Mr Hunt said over time every single person who wishes to be vaccinated will be.​​"What we want to do is to give every Australian who seeks to be vaccinated, that capacity of the course of the coming twelve months," Mr Hunt said.​​The Health Minister the government is close to securing deals on the supply of two new vaccine candidates.​​Today Australia reported no new community cases of COVID-19, a figure not seen since June.​


https://www.9news.com.au/national/c...out-plan/09032e56-c7d6-43ec-8cfc-7e44f3b116e4



.​


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## DB008 (5 November 2020)

*Two more potential coronavirus vaccines secured for Australia,
Federal Government says*​


The Federal Government has signed another two agreements to give Australia access to potential COVID-19 vaccines early next year.​​Under the deals, Australia will get 40 million doses of the vaccine being developed by biotechnology company Novavax, and 10 million doses of the vaccine being produced by Pfizer and BioNTech.​​Both vaccine candidates are currently in stage three clinical trials, and supplies will begin arriving in Australia in early 2021 — if they are proven safe and effective.​​The new agreements mean Australia is in line to get access to 134 million doses of four different vaccines at a total cost of $3.2 billion.​​Prime Minister Scott Morrison said there were no guarantees the vaccines would pass trials, but his Government's strategy puts Australia at the front of the queue.​​"By securing multiple COVID-19 vaccines we are giving Australians the best shot at early access to a vaccine, should trials prove successful," Mr Morrison said.​​"We aren't putting all our eggs in one basket and we will continue to pursue further vaccines should our medical experts recommend them."​​Earlier this year, the Morrison Government signed a deal to get 33.8 million doses of the AstraZeneca/Oxford University vaccine and 51 million doses of the CSL/University of Queensland vaccine.​​Those vaccines would be manufactured domestically, however, under the new deals, doses of the Novavax and Pfizer vaccines would be made offshore in the United States, Czech Republic, Belgium and Germany.​​All four vaccines would likely require individuals to take two doses.​​*Health Minister Greg Hunt said Australia had invested in a range of vaccines including two protein vaccines, one mRNA, and a viral vector-type vaccine.*​


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11...ne-deals-50-million-doses-government/12849572​


*AstraZeneca/Oxford University vaccine*

The AstraZeneca Oxford COVID-19 vaccine (ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 and also known as AZD1222) now undergoing Phase III clinical trials, has already undergone rigorous testing to ensure the highest standards of quality and safety. Now a team at Bristol University has used recently developed techniques to further validate that the vaccine accurately follows the genetic instructions programmed into it by the Oxford team. This novel analysis provides even greater clarity and detail about how the vaccine successfully provokes a strong immune response.

The findings, led by scientists at the University of Bristol and published on the pre-print server ResearchSquare, represent the most in-depth analysis of any of the COVID-19 vaccine candidates, going significantly above and beyond any regulatory requirements anywhere in the world.

Work on the vaccine, developed by researchers at the University of Oxford’s Jenner Institute and Oxford Vaccine Group, began in January 2020. Now undergoing Phase III clinical trials by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca, the Bristol researchers’ focus was to assess how often and how accurately the vaccine is copying and using the genetic instructions provided by the Oxford team. These instructions detail how to make the spike protein from the coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2 that causes COVID-19.

The Oxford vaccine is made by taking a common cold virus (adenovirus) from chimpanzees and deleting about 20 per cent of the virus’s instructions. This means it is impossible for the vaccine to replicate or cause disease in humans, but it can still be produced in the laboratory under special conditions. By removing these genetic instructions there is space to add the instructions for the spike protein from SARS-CoV-2. Once inside a human cell the genetic instructions for the spike protein need to be ’photocopied’ many times – a process known as transcription. In any vaccine system, it is these ’photocopies’ that are directly used to make large amounts of the spike protein.

Once the spike protein is made, the immune system will react to it and this pre-trains the immune system to identify a real COVID-19 infection. So, when the person vaccinated is confronted with the SARS-CoV-2 virus their immune system is pre-trained and ready to attack it.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-10-2...-programmed-genetic-instructions-independent#


*CSL/University of Queensland vaccine*

Global biotech company CSL Limited will supply the Australian Government with 51 million doses of The University of Queensland’s COVID-19 vaccine candidate if it proves successful, under a heads of agreement announced today.

CSL expects the first tranche of doses to be available by mid-2021, with additional doses following in late 2021 and early 2022, if late stage clinical trials are successful.

The total number of vaccines ordered by the Government is based on a two dose per person regime.

CSL CEO and Managing Director Paul Perreault said CSL had invested significant resources in the rapid development and large-scale manufacture of the vaccine candidate - UQ-CSL V451.

https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/...ement-australian-government-uq-vaccine-supply


The University of Queensland (UQ) CSL COVID-19 vaccine candidate (V451) combines the adjuvant technology MF59 to improve immune response, reduce the amount of antigen needed for each vaccine, and enable more doses to be manufactured more rapidly.

The UQ-CSL V451 developed a rapid response “molecular clamp” vaccine platform, a transformative technology patented by UniQuest, UQ’s technology transfer company that enables rapid vaccine design and production against outbreak viral pathogens.

Enveloped viruses have proteins on their surface that drive the fusion of the virus and host cell membranes, a key process in infection. These proteins are also the major target of a protective immune response.

Although they are able to induce an immune response, they are inherently unstable and can change shape when expressed on their own. This means that the immune response induced does not efficiently recognize the protein on the virus surface and so does not provide protection from subsequent infection.

UQ-CSL V451 has overcome this problem by using its proprietary “molecular clamp” technology that locks the unstable, prefusion version of the surface proteins in a form that allows the immune system to respond more effectively.

https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/...ement-australian-government-uq-vaccine-supply


*Novavax vaccine*

GAITHERSBURG, Md., Sept. 24, 2020 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Novavax, Inc. (Nasdaq: NVAX), a late stage biotechnology company developing next-generation vaccines for serious infectious diseases, today announced that it has initiated its first Phase 3 study to evaluate the efficacy, safety and immunogenicity of NVX-CoV2373, Novavax’ COVID-19 vaccine candidate. The trial is being conducted in the United Kingdom (UK), in partnership with the UK Government’s Vaccines Taskforce, and is expected to enroll and immunize up to 10,000 individuals between 18-84 (inclusive) years of age, with and without relevant comorbidities, over the next four to six weeks.

NVX-CoV2373 is a stable, prefusion protein made using Novavax’ recombinant protein nanoparticle technology that includes Novavax’ proprietary MatrixM™ adjuvant. The vaccine has a favorable product profile that will allow handling in an unfrozen, liquid formulation that can be stored at 2°C to 8°C, allowing for distribution using standard vaccine channels.

NVXCoV2373 is a vaccine candidate engineered from the genetic sequence of SARSCoV2, the virus that causes COVID-19 disease. NVXCoV2373 was created using Novavax’ recombinant nanoparticle technology to generate antigen derived from the coronavirus spike (S) protein and contains Novavax’ patented saponin-based Matrix-M™ adjuvant to enhance the immune response and stimulate high levels of neutralizing antibodies. NVX-CoV2373 contains purified protein antigens and cannot replicate, nor can it cause COVID-19. In preclinical trials, NVXCoV2373 demonstrated indication of antibodies that block binding of spike protein to receptors targeted by the virus, a critical aspect for effective vaccine protection. In its the Phase 1 portion of its Phase 1/2 clinical trial, NVXCoV2373 was generally well-tolerated and elicited robust antibody responses numerically superior to that seen in human convalescent sera. NVX-CoV2373 is also being evaluated in two ongoing Phase 2 studies, which began in August; a Phase 2b trial in South Africa, and a Phase 1/2 continuation in the U.S. and Australia. Novavax has secured $2 billion in funding for its global coronavirus vaccine program, including up to $388 million in funding from the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI).

https://ir.novavax.com/news-release...hase-3-efficacy-trial-covid-19-vaccine-united


*Pfizer vaccine*

After extensive review of preclinical and clinical data from Phase 1/2 clinical trials, and in consultation with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration’s Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research (CBER) and other global regulators, Pfizer and BioNTech have chosen to advance their BNT162b2 vaccine candidate into the Phase 2/3 study, at a 30_ µg_ dose level in a 2 dose regimen. BNT162b2, which recently received U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Fast Track designation, encodes an optimized SARS-CoV-2 full length spike glycoprotein (S), which is the target of virus neutralizing antibodies.

“Our selection of the BNT162b2 vaccine candidate and its advancement into a Phase 2/3 study are the culmination of an extensive, collaborative and unprecedented R&D program involving Pfizer, BioNTech, clinical investigators, and study participants with a singular focus of developing a safe and effective COVID-19 RNA vaccine. The Phase 2/3 study protocol follows all the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) guidance on clinical trial design for COVID-19 vaccine studies,” said Kathrin U. Jansen, Ph.D., Senior Vice President and Head of Vaccine Research & Development, Pfizer. “The initiation of the Phase 2/3 trial is a major step forward in our progress toward providing a potential vaccine to help fight the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, and we look forward to generating additional data as the program progresses.”

“Today, we are starting our late-stage global study, which will include up to 30,000 participants. We selected BNT162b2 as our lead candidate for this Phase 2/3 trial upon diligent evaluation of the totality of the data generated so far. This decision reflects our primary goal to bring a well-tolerated, highly effective vaccine to the market as quickly as possible, while we will continue to evaluate our other vaccine candidates as part of a differentiated COVID-19 vaccine portfolio,” said Ugur Sahin, M.D., CEO and Co-Founder of BioNTech. “Many steps have been taken towards this important milestone and we would like to thank all those involved for their extraordinary commitment.”

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-r...biontech-choose-lead-mrna-vaccine-candidate-0


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## bellenuit (9 November 2020)

Pfizer has developed vaccine that it claims is 90% effective. Stock markets soaring.


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## Garpal Gumnut (9 November 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Pfizer has developed vaccine that it claims is 90% effective. Stock markets soaring.



I saw that. 

My doctor tells me that a vaccine that will be safe, effective in an individual and have sufficient uptake by the requisite percentage of the population is one if not two years distant. 

If it pushes the market higher it is a force for good imo. Otherwise it is what it is. 

gg


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## sptrawler (10 November 2020)

A good article by the BBC on the vaccine development tests happening.









						Covid: Bolsonaro hails suspension of Chinese vaccine trial
					

The head of the institute conducting the trials says there was a death but not caused by the vaccine.



					www.bbc.com


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## basilio (13 November 2020)

More detail on th*e* BioNTech/Pfizer *vaccine discovery.  *









						Scientist behind BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine says it can end pandemic
					

Exclusive: BioNTech’s CEO Uğur Şahin says he is confident vaccine can ‘bash the virus over the head’




					www.theguardian.com
				











						6 key questions about the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine
					

There are grounds for optimism but also several unknowns around this coronavirus vaccine




					www.theguardian.com


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## macca (13 November 2020)

Or we can just give everyone free Vitamin D which we Know works with no side effects


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## DB008 (17 November 2020)

*Moderna's trial data shows its COVID-19 vaccine nears 95 per cent efficacy*​

US drug manufacturer Moderna has released data that shows its experimental COVID-19 vaccine was 94.5 percent effective, based on interim data from a late-stage trial.​​Moderna's interim analysis was based on 95 infections among trial participants who received either a placebo or the vaccine. Its findings were not published in a peer-reviewed journal paper.​​Of those, only five infections occurred in those who received the vaccine, which is administered in two shots 28 days apart.​​This makes the company the second US manufacturer to report results that far exceed expectations, following Pfizer's announcement of promising vaccine test results last week.​​Both potential vaccines still need to pass more safety data and regulatory reviews.​​But Moderna expects to have enough safety data required for US authorisation in the next week or so and the company expects to file for emergency use authorisation (EUA) in the coming weeks.​

*How does it work?*​​A vaccine*'*s 'efficacy' doesn't measure how well it stops the SARS-CoV-2 virus entering a vaccinated person's body.​​Instead, it's a measure of stopping — or at least reducing the severity of — COVID-19.​​Unlike more traditional vaccines, which contain a weakened version of the actual virus or portions of it, both Moderna and Pfizer's vaccines are based on a new technology that involves taking genetic material from the virus and delivering it to healthy cells.​​Using messenger RNA (or mRNA), the vaccines carry instructions to the body to create the SARS-CoV-2 protein the vaccine is aiming to protect against.​​The idea is that the body detects the genetic material and new protein as foreign, and mounts an immune response — producing antibodies that learn to remember and fight the virus if the body encounters it again.​​One advantage of Moderna's vaccine is that it does not need ultra-cold storage like Pfizer's, making it easier to distribute.​​Moderna expects it to be stable at normal fridge temperatures of 2 to 8 degrees Celsius for 30 days and it can be stored for up to 6 months at -20C.​​Pfizer's vaccine must be shipped and stored at -70C, the sort of temperature typical of an Antarctic winter.​​"Having more than one source of an effective vaccine will increase the global supply and, with luck, help us all to get back to something like normal sometime in 2021," said Eleanor Riley, professor of immunology and infectious disease at the University of Edinburgh.​​
More on link below...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11...al-shows-almost-95-per-cent-efficacy/12889554
​As a side note, 3 family members in Europe caught COVID-19.
They all say it's slightly worse than the common cold/flu that goes around every year.
1 member has fully recovered after a 2 week period, the other 2 caught COVID-19 last week.
Ages are 20, 50, 67.


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## DB008 (20 November 2020)

*New breathalyzer from Texas A&M, Dallas company might detect
COVID-19 in a minute or less*
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/author/gwendolyn-wu/​
Texas A&M researchers and a Dallas artificial intelligence company are developing a rapid COVID-19 test that would use a breathalyzer, rather than a swab, and potentially make it safer to hold large gatherings.​​The testing device, housed in a kiosk that can fit in the back of an SUV, could be set up outside of large group settings such as schools, churches and corporate offices.​​People would step up to the device and, with a disposable straw, blow into a copper hole on the front of the kiosk.​​The system captures the user’s breath and analyzes it for compounds that a body generates when it’s fighting SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. Users would receive the results within a minute of the test through a mobile app.​​“It’s all about establishing a controlled environment where people can interact and have confidence about it,” said Rob Gorham, executive director of SecureAmerica Institute, a network of public institutions and private manufacturing and technology companies based at Texas A&M. “It can create more normalcy around establishing these trusted group settings, whether it be an airplane or a football stadium.”​​The device, called Worlds Protect, is a collaboration between Texas A&M researchers, who developed the hardware for the testing systems, and Worlds Inc., which developed the artificial intelligence software.​​Texas A&M invested $1 million in Worlds Protect’s development.​​Food and Drug Administration regulators still are evaluating the device for public use under an emergency use authorization before it heads into mass production. If approved, Worlds Inc. and SecureAmerica could begin manufacturing dozens of kiosks as soon as March.​​

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/bu...er-from-Texas-A-M-Dallas-company-15739079.php



.​


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## macca (28 November 2020)

Swedish experience sparks vaccine fears
					

As the world eagerly awaits the first doses of a coronavirus vaccine being rolled out, some in Sweden are watching with trepidation.




					www.news.com.au
				






<<More than 60 per cent heeded the call — the highest level in the world. But Chebbi and hundreds of others, primarily children and young adults under 30, were later diagnosed with narcolepsy as a side effect of the vaccine.

A link was eventually established to an adjuvant, or booster, in the Pandemrix vaccine which was intended to strengthen the immune response.

Narcolepsy is a chronic disorder of the nervous system that causes excessive and often uncontrollable drowsiness.

“I have sleep attacks all the time in all kinds of situations and at inappropriate times … In my food, at job interviews, at lectures, seminars, at university. I’ve fallen asleep at my workplace, I fall asleep on buses and everywhere,” Chebbi said.

“It has destroyed my life.

The Swedish Pharmaceutical Insurance has so far approved 440 of 702 narcolepsy claims linked to Pandemrix, paying out a total of 100 million kronor (A$15.7 million) in compensation.>>



On reading some of the weak criteria that constitutes a successful trial I think a similar problem may arise with any rushed Covid Vaccine


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## DB008 (29 November 2020)

*Covid vaccine will ‘probably’ be rolled out in second week of December, says CDC director*​
Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) director Robert Redfield has said that a Covid-19 vaccine could start being rolled out across the US next month.​​During an interview on Fox News’ _The Daily Briefing_ on Tuesday evening, Mr Redfield was asked by host Dana Perino about the development of potential coronavirus vaccines.​​“I think it's really important. First, it's, you know, exceptional that we have these vaccines. And it's very exciting.​​“And, again, it just reinforces why I want people to be vigilant because we're turning the corner now,” Mr Redfield told the host.​​“You don't want to be the last group to end up getting Covid, because the vaccine is going to begin to be rolled out probably by the end of the second week of December,” the CDC director added.​​Pharmaceutical companies Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca have all announced in recent weeks that their vaccine candidates had proved effective in preventing infection of Covid-19, though studies on the jabs have not yet been peer-reviewed.​​Pfizer, which developed its vaccine with German company BioNTech, applied for emergency approval for its candidate from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) last week, while Moderna is expected to do the same by the end of the month.​​An advisory committee for the FDA will meet on 10 December to discuss an emergency use authorisation for the Pfizer vaccine.​

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...eek-of-december-says-cdc-director/ar-BB1blTmL​


Why are we waiting until March 2021?



.​


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## Knobby22 (29 November 2020)

DB008 said:


> Why are we waiting until March 2021?
> .​




Logistics and despite the glossing over it in the USA testing isnt complete. Also there are other vaccine results coming. Why be forced to pay top dollar?

Some other countries are in a desperate position and can't wait.

On another point, the efficacy is really good which is great for us as it really won't matter if the anti vaxxers don't take it. 

I reckon we should all be vaccinated by June and by then the virus will return killing off some of the anti vaxxers and subsequently increasing the IQ of the population.


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## Knobby22 (29 November 2020)

Bit mean on the previous comment.

I actually want, at least in the USA, a sizeable proportion of antivaxxers. I am expecting 25% who will not take the vaccine and so will eventually catch the virus. They will then need the mesoblast treatment.

From what I have read, the Australian proportion of people likely to avoid vaccination is around 5-8%. Free country.


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## DB008 (29 November 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Bit mean on the previous comment.




Not really. Darwin selection in a free world.



Knobby22 said:


> I actually want, at least in the USA, a sizeable proportion of antivaxxers. I am expecting 25% who will not take the vaccine and so will eventually catch the virus. They will then need the mesoblast treatment.
> 
> From what I have read, the Australian proportion of people likely to avoid vaccination is around 5-8%. Free country.




Like l said previously, l have 3 family members (in laws), who have now had Covid-19 and they all say it's only slightly worse than the common cold/flu that goes around each year. So, not that bad.

Also, from talks at my workplace, in one instance, up to 90% of the work group would not take the Covid-19 vaccine. I think the Government will also put the onus on employers regarding taking the vaccine. Much like childcare/vaccine/benefits.


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## Knobby22 (29 November 2020)

DB008 said:


> Not really. Darwin selection in a free world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I agree. Only a small percentage get really sick but when you are talking millions of people then you need treatments.


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## macca (29 November 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, I agree. Only a small percentage get really sick but when you are talking millions of people then you need treatments.




Yes that is true but we are not seeing any figures for a comparison, how many people get the flu each year ?

How many people have had a cold, how many people have had other diseases.

I do agree that the Covid numbers are huge but they are inflated by the fact that Govts are paying for all the treatments.

The test that they use in USA is being used incorrectly, it is producing heaps of false positives which inflate the numbers. 

On the other hand, there will be heaps of people who have had Covid but are not counted because they did not get tested.

I would like to know the details of the poor unfortunates that have died, ages, previous health conditions, Vitamin D in blood, alcoholics, diabetics etc

Without these details the Govt can not make proper decisions (No DD) and the so called health officials either have not bothered to test people or are hiding the results.

I also know two people who have had Covid, they just stayed home for the required time, one felt like the flu but not too bad and the other just like a head cold.

No way should we be locking down for those people, do research then protect the vulnerable, the rest carry on


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## IFocus (29 November 2020)

I have said it before 2 in our street had it (early 40's) one 8 weeks 48 hrs in hospital the other 5 weeks couldn't function now 7 months later still feeling effects.


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## basilio (29 November 2020)

So clearly just inside the experience of posters on ASF the outcomes for COVID range from a dose of the flu to very serious short and long term problems.  Or death.

That confirms what the statistics are saying about roughly 85/90 % mildly affected 10-14% substantially affected 1-3% mortality. 

Sounds "reasonable"  until you work out what the overall figures are for 20 million people in Australia.


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## bellenuit (29 November 2020)

basilio said:


> So clearly just inside the experience of posters on ASF the outcomes for COVID range from a dose of the flu to very serious short and long term problems.




One issue is that there are two types of long term problems. Severe problems that manifest themselves within a short time  of catching COVID that have persisted for months on end. Then there are severe and even mild reactions that seemingly disappeared after a relatively short time, but may result in serious problems down the track that nobody is aware of yet. It could be years or decades before the latter start to materialise.


----------



## bellenuit (29 November 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Then there are severe and even mild reactions that seemingly disappeared after a relatively short time, but may result in serious problems down the track that nobody is aware of yet.




*They had coronavirus. Now they’re showing up at memory clinics with serious cognitive loss*

*








						They had coronavirus. Now they’re showing up at memory clinics with serious cognitive loss
					

A worrisome number of people recovering from coronavirus are experiencing significant cognitive impairment — the kind more typically seen in someone who is at risk for dementia.




					www.nj.com
				



*


----------



## macca (30 November 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *They had coronavirus. Now they’re showing up at memory clinics with serious cognitive loss*
> 
> *
> 
> ...




That is a worry, I wonder do they offer people who have had Covid any sort of after care.

When a person has the flu it takes a while to bounce back, should people who have had Covid be given longer treatment.  A longer course of the drug which helped them may be called for

Maybe they need to be advised on food choices, vitamin supplements, tonics etc

An example would be Vitamin C and D, both can be taken to good effect even when one already has the flu.

Some Docs in USA are giving IV Vitamin C for Covid treatment, people could take that at home for a few months.

If this was done with different supps or drugs and results recorded we could refine a protocol to help people fully recover after a bad case of Covid


----------



## IFocus (30 November 2020)

COVID reduces O2 in the body, that's all organs including the brain, then there is the long term damage to lungs.

The other issue that seems to get missed by those claiming its just flu is without hospital treatment from those brave souls on the front line (who tragically are over represented in the death rates) the death rate and longer term consequences would be exponentially higher.


----------



## bellenuit (30 November 2020)

IFocus said:


> The other issue that seems to get missed by those claiming its just flu is without hospital treatment from those brave souls on the front line (who tragically are over represented in the death rates) the death rate and longer term consequences would be exponentially higher.




Yes, many forget that unlike COVID people mostly just get over the flu with just some medication to relieve symptoms.


----------



## macca (30 November 2020)

I know some of you don't like Mercola but articles like this is why I read it, note that he is only quoting Doctors who are involved in the actual research.

He may suggest natural remedies but the interesting part to me is what the Docs are finding

*Endothelium Damage Found in Critically Ill COVID-19 Cases*

After noticing blackened fingers and toes — signs of what  appeared to be microvascular thrombosis, or tiny blood clots in small blood   vessels — in COVID-19 patients in advanced stages of the disease, physicians at  the Yale School of Medicine began running clotting tests on their patients.3
Levels of Von Willebrand factor (VWF), a clotting protein  released by endothelial cells, were found to be significantly elevated, which   suggested to hematologist Alfred Lee that damaged endothelial cells may be  releasing large quantities of VWF, leading to clots.4 This prompted the team to screen for additional markers of endothelial cell and  platelet activation in critically and noncritically ill COVID-19 patients.
The study, which was conducted in April 2020, included 68   hospitalized patients with COVID-19 and 13 asymptomatic controls. VWF antigen  was significantly elevated in COVID-19 patients admitted to the intensive care  unit (ICU) compared to non-ICU COVID-19 patients,5 as  was soluble platelet selectin (sP-selectin), which is sometimes used as a  biomarker for infection and mortality.6
Specifically, mean VWF was 565% among ICU patients and 278%  among non-ICU patients while soluble P-selectin was 15.9 ng/mL compared to 11.2  ng/mL.7 "Our  findings show that endotheliopathy is present in COVID-19 and is likely to be  associated with critical illness and death. Early identification of  endotheliopathy and strategies to mitigate its progression might improve  outcomes in COVID-19," the researchers concluded.8
Likely not coincidentally, endothelial dysfunction is also   associated with insulin resistance and plays a role in the vascular   complications of diabetes,9 as well as being involved in obesity and high  blood pressure,10 conditions that raise the risk of severe COVID19.
Even mild  obesity may raise the risk of COVID-19 severity — COVID-19 patients with mild  obesity had a 2.5 times greater risk of respiratory  failure and a five times greater risk of being admitted to an ICU compared  to nonobese patients. Those with a BMI of 35 and over were also 12 times more  likely to die from COVID-19.11
Another study  looking into the impact of coexisting health conditions like high blood  pressure, heart disease and diabetes on COVID-19 outcomes found they're linked  to "poorer clinical outcomes," such as admission to an intensive care unit,  a need for invasive ventilation or death.12
It's possible that the endothelial damage in all of these  conditions plays a role in worsening COVID-19 outcomes, but it's unclear which   comes first — endothelial damage or COVID-19.

*Endothelial Cells  Are the 'Main Target' of SARS-CoV-2*
Imperial College London cardiologist Thomas Lüscher told The   Scientist that the endothelium is the main target of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that  causes COVID-19.13 Under healthy conditions, blood cells can pass through the endothelium lining  blood vessels, but when exposed to viral infections and other inflammatory  agents, the endothelium becomes sticky and releases VWF.
The  end result is a cascade of clotting and inflammation, both characteristics of  severe COVID-19. According  to a case report published April 8, 2020, "A  hallmark of severe COVID-19 is coagulopathy, with 71.4% of patients who die of  COVID-19 meeting … criteria for disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC)  while only 0.6% of patients who survive meet these criteria."14
Writing in the European Heart Journal, Lüscher argues,  "COVID-19, particularly in the later complicated stages, represents an  endothelial disease,"15 which may help explain why multiple organ systems, including the lungs, heart,  brain, kidney and vasculature, may be affected.
An additional study by Canadian researchers, published in  Critical Care Explorations in September 2020, also revealed elevated VWF and   soluble P-selectin levels in COVID-19 patients, along with higher   glycocalyx-degradation products,16 a sign of damage to the glycocalyx, which envelops the endothelium.17 This can also be a sign of sepsis.  Taken together, the research suggests that therapies targeting the endothelium  may be useful for COVID-19, which is where enzymes come in.










						What Are the Major Side Effects Associated With mRNA Shots?
					

More and more people are speaking up and sharing the adverse effects they experienced after receiving the jab. Find out the latest developments here.




					articles.mercola.com


----------



## satanoperca (30 November 2020)

So where did this virus come from?


----------



## satanoperca (30 November 2020)

Understanding the origins is vitally important. Was it man-made or interfered with by humans or was it natural (from the environment that we exist in)?


----------



## macca (1 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Understanding the origins is vitally important. Was it man-made or interfered with by humans or was it natural (from the environment that we exist in)?




That is the billion dollar question, I suspect it was an experiment that accidentally escaped


----------



## satanoperca (1 December 2020)

macca said:


> That is the billion dollar question, I suspect it was an experiment that accidentally escaped



It is a MULTI billion $ ? Our govnuts and the world govnuts are to dumb to try and find the answer, except, spend, spend, spend.

Of course, it was an experiment that escaped, why do you think China is being an arse at the moment, as they know. But **** does happen and I don't think (well I hope they didn't) release this virus to get back at dumb arse Chump man shooting his mouth of to get likes on social media.

Mantra : Everything is technical, don't stay down the rabbit holes to long to find the solution to the problem(s).


----------



## grah33 (2 December 2020)

mRNA ... amazing ...


----------



## Knobby22 (3 December 2020)

Boris isn't mucking about, rolling out the vaccine. First in the world.

Pfizer, 94% effective in older people, 95% effective overall.

Also in other news from Australian research (Murdoch Institute), children are less susceptible to Covid due to better blood vessel health and higher levels of Vitamin D in the body.


----------



## wayneL (6 December 2020)




----------



## Knobby22 (6 December 2020)

wayneL said:


>




Disinformation again. Look it up.


----------



## wayneL (7 December 2020)

I did @Knobby22 and I'm not so sure. Sitting back and waiting for more and better information.

I've been going into hospital every night at the moment.... End of life stuff for my mum (and not said to garner any sympathy at all, I don't want sympathy but just to explain why I'm there and spending so much time).... And spending a lot of time with the staff.

Not one that I have spoken to years on board with the narrative and none either believe a vaccine is necessary or willing to take it. That was something, in spite of my research on everything about the plandemic, I did not expect. Last nights nurse was particularly illuminating on a number of levels.

Anyhooooo....


----------



## moXJO (7 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Disinformation again. Look it up.



Is it?


----------



## Knobby22 (7 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Is it?



Either look it up or join the herd, I don't care.


----------



## moXJO (7 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Either look it up or join the herd, I don't care.



I thought it was one of the potential side effects?

Reading the comments on that twitter, yes that is disinformation.


----------



## wayneL (7 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Either look it up or join the herd, I don't care.



I did look it up.

It seems to me there are genuine concerns and the only ones prepared to try to portray it as misinformation are the likes of Snopes, which itself is misinformation in many cases.

But as I say I'm prepared to wait for more and better information.

But you would forgive most of us for not wanting to be a part of this thing until we know for sure, wouldn't you think?

'Specially considering that this thing is nowhere near as deadly as the fear narrative is trying to portray. 

No way that I want to get covid but I do not fear getting it. As one with a functioning immune system I probably wouldn't even know that I've had it.

In fact there is a possibility that I already have.


----------



## moXJO (7 December 2020)

So is it a once a year type deal?


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> I did @Knobby22 and I'm not so sure. Sitting back and waiting for more and better information.
> 
> I've been going into hospital every night at the moment.... End of life stuff for my mum (and not said to garner any sympathy at all, I don't want sympathy but just to explain why I'm there and spending so much time).... And spending a lot of time with the staff.
> 
> ...




My wife is a retired nurse, of many years service and she isn't putting her hand up that's for sure.


----------



## macca (10 December 2020)

Suggesting that criminal charges should be laid against some in the medical professional for suppressing a known and proven cure. 

NO vaccine needed just use drugs that already in common usage

Professor Borody in Sydney said the same thing months ago

<<Pierre Kory, M.D.,  Associate Professor of Medicine at St. Luke’s Aurora Medical Center, delivers emotional  testimony during the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs  Committee hearing. "Here is the near "miraculous" solution to  COVID-19 that should resolve all the divisions. How can anyone (except those  who care only for profit) disagree," he says?


Ivermectin is a Food  and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved antiparasitic drug used to treat several  neglected tropical diseases, including onchocerciasis, helminthiases, and  scabies. It is also being evaluated for its potential to reduce malaria transmission  by killing mosquitoes that feed on treated humans and livestock. For these   indications, Ivermectin has been widely used and has demonstrated an excellent safety profile, according to the NIH.>>


----------



## wayneL (10 December 2020)

macca said:


> Suggesting that criminal charges should be laid against some in the medical professional for suppressing a known and proven cure.
> 
> NO vaccine needed just use drugs that already in common usage
> 
> ...




Trivia: We had a horse that was involved with the initial Oz Ivermectin trials through Murdoch university back in the 80s, to treat Onchocerciasis.

In true Australian fashion we had to reinvent the wheel even though Ivermectin had been approved in just about every other country on the planet.

Before then we were all smuggling it in from New Zealand.

in the large animal world ivermectin is  all over the place now, you can buy in any saddlery or feed shop.

So yeah I guess you could regard it as a safe medication.


----------



## cynic (11 December 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...e/news-story/049a0d3c401f5842600ee08e1414d998


----------



## SirRumpole (11 December 2020)

Trials of the University of Queensland vaccine have been abandoned.

Bad news for Australian researchers.









						Scientists pull the pin on UQ-CSL coronavirus vaccine due to false positive HIV results
					

Trials of a COVID-19 vaccine by the University of Queensland in partnership with CSL are abandoned after participants returned false positive HIV test results.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (11 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Trials of the University of Queensland vaccine have been abandoned.
> 
> Bad news for Australian researchers.
> 
> ...




Seems to me to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction to throw away all that research on the remote chance of a false HIV positive result.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Seems to me to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction to throw away all that research on the remote chance of a false HIV positive result.



The Prime Minister said the research will continue (though slowed).
It's a new approach using clamp technology and has other uses. They were only at phase 1 anyway, well behind the other vaccines.  
It  was another bow we would have should the main vaccines fail but as they succeeded and this vaccine needed re-engineering realistically it is at least another year if not more away. 
Interesting way to fail though -causing false positives for HIV testing!


----------



## Knobby22 (11 December 2020)

cynic said:


> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...e/news-story/049a0d3c401f5842600ee08e1414d998



 Hi Cynic

Dr Norman Swan has talked about the reason highly allergic people may react. The culprit is one of the stabilisers for the vaccine and it is in both of the USA vaccines and was not unexpected. The phase 3 testing specifically excluded highly allergic individuals.

 I saw it on the ABC news last night, I was hoping to find a link but no luck. If interested watch in iview last nights news or maybe you can have better luck?


----------



## IFocus (11 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Seems to me to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction to throw away all that research on the remote chance of a false HIV positive result.





The vaccine is / was likely OK and if you had to would likely still use, but thanks to anti-vaxers it couldn't proceed based solely on people accepting the false positive and being confident of its safety.

That's unfortunately the world we live in.


----------



## cynic (12 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Hi Cynic
> 
> Dr Norman Swan has talked about the reason highly allergic people may react. The culprit is one of the stabilisers for the vaccine and it is in both of the USA vaccines and was not unexpected. The phase 3 testing specifically excluded highly allergic individuals.
> 
> I saw it on the ABC news last night, I was hoping to find a link but no luck. If interested watch in iview last nights news or maybe you can have better luck?



Could this be the news item you saw?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12...e-reactions-to-uk-covid-vaccine/12972764?nw=0

It doesn’t really explain why the UK health regulator got caught unawares, resulting in an abrupt revision to the eligibility criteria!

Just more "after the fact" experts claiming to have known all along!


----------



## wayneL (12 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> The vaccine is / was likely OK and if you had to would likely still use, but thanks to anti-vaxers it couldn't proceed based solely on people accepting the false positive and being confident of its safety.
> 
> That's unfortunately the world we live in.



Here's how I'm looking at it.

In no way am I an anti vaxxer, I've had  every vaccination that many of us have had and absolutely happy to have had them: TB, Tetanus, Polio, Cholera, and a bunch of others that I can't even remember what they are.

I don't do flu vaccines because I don't see them as a good risk reward proposition.

Will I take a covid vaccine?

Again for me is a risk reward proposition. So most likely not in the foreseeable future. Neither will my wife.

I do have friends for whom it is a better risk-reward proposition, asthmatics lupus sufferers, elderly, obese and all that sort of thing.

If in time the damn thing proves to be safer than the disease for normal healthy people, assuming the disease is even still around by that stage, then I'll take it, but not before.

And that is how most people I know are looking at it.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Here's how I'm looking at it.
> 
> In no way am I an anti vaxxer, I've had  every vaccination that many of us have had and absolutely happy to have had them: TB, Tetanus, Polio, Cholera, and a bunch of others that I can't even remember what they are.
> 
> ...




Maybe people should give some thanks to the fact that our governments State and Federal have cooperated to put us in the position that we don't have to be used as guinea pigs for any vaccine.

Australia has a lot of things wrong with it but in this case, thumbs up to basically everyone in government and their advisers for getting (most) things right.


----------



## IFocus (12 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Here's how I'm looking at it.
> 
> In no way am I an anti vaxxer, I've had  every vaccination that many of us have had and absolutely happy to have had them: TB, Tetanus, Polio, Cholera, and a bunch of others that I can't even remember what they are.
> 
> ...





There is irony that those with no under lying conditions will be fine safety wise to take the vaccine same cohort who face lower risk from COVID.

The vaccine in the UK being run out now has been tested with a run on 20k to 30k people.

The risks as I understand it are those that has MS or an auto-immune disease  etc that generally are not part of the 20k-30k group that generally comes much, much later unfortunately they are also those at highest risk to COVID.

So if you immunise everyone else then effectively you protect those that are at highest risk who cannot not be.

Its a public service for those that are vulnerable for the rest of us to get the vaccine.

The allergy reaction is common to vaccines generally all be it in very small numbers, remains to be seen if that's the case with the UK roll out.

In regards to the Queensland Uni vaccine the issue was not the effecy or safety of the vaccine but public confidence and the impact of blood supplys


----------



## satanoperca (12 December 2020)

basilio said:


> *Trumps last quasi, totally ridiculous, legal throw of the dice has been dashed 9-0 in the Supreme Court.*
> 
> They threw out the Texas lawsuit which, somehow, wanted to persuade the Supreme Court to set aside the results from the 4 swing states and give them to Trump.   126 Republician  Reps supported the suit - even when it meant saying they were personally voted in by a "corrupt" system.
> 
> ...





IFocus said:


> There is irony that those with no under lying conditions will be fine safety wise to take the vaccine same cohort who face lower risk from COVID.
> 
> The vaccine in the UK being run out now has been tested with a run on 20k to 30k people.
> 
> ...



I found this interesting " The allergy reaction is common to vaccines generally all be it in very small numbers, remains to be seen if that's the case with the UK roll out. " 

How is that any different than the virus itself. If the vaccine is shown to harm 0.1% of those inoculated, what is the differernce?

The issue with the QLD vaccine was that it showed a positive negative to HIV, the reason is Covid has characteristics, RNA similar to HIV.


----------



## IFocus (12 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> I found this interesting " The allergy reaction is common to vaccines generally all be it in very small numbers, remains to be seen if that's the case with the UK roll out. "
> 
> How is that any different than the virus itself. If the vaccine is shown to harm 0.1% of those inoculated, what is the differernce?
> 
> The issue with the QLD vaccine was that it showed a positive negative to HIV, the reason is Covid has characteristics, RNA similar to HIV.





The reaction is much lower % and not deadly (so far), as for the HIV its actually the material used to help make the molecular clamp as a result some people create a HIV antibody which in its self is not an issue.

The problem is how do you separate false positives and identify real HIV positives for blood donors etc.


----------



## basilio (12 December 2020)

Very interesting story of the use of mega doses of Vitamin C to reverse sepis in a critically ill COVID patient. Happened in Melbourne.









						A COVID patient with sepsis was given a megadose of vitamin C. The change in him was 'remarkable'
					

A young Australian man who was critically ill with COVID-19 and suffering early stages of sepsis made a remarkable recovery after being given massive doses of vitamin C, according to his doctors.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (13 December 2020)

cynic said:


> Could this be the news item you saw?
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12...e-reactions-to-uk-covid-vaccine/12972764?nw=0
> 
> ...




Thanks, much appreciated.

Did you watch the video. He doesn't claim he knew all along he said that some experts warned of this and explained the likely culprit. Excellent analytical research as always from Dr Norman Swan.

Another interesting fact regarding vaccines, in the USA, the more uneducated you are and the more black you are the less likely you will take the vaccine, so for instance only 25% of the black population say they will take it even though statistically they are suffering more than the general population due to their preponderance of working in service jobs.

I am pretty confident the uptake in the USA will be less than 60% meaning the therapies I have invested in will make large profits over the next two years with approximately  2 to 3 times as many citizens catching the virus than so far has occurred.

Pretty sad that uneducated people become prey to the anti vaccine lobby but honestly it is their fault for believing in pseudo science though its probably other factors such as poor schooling and the USA  populace distrust of Government that is really to blame.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 December 2020)

basilio said:


> Very interesting story of the use of mega doses of Vitamin C to reverse sepis in a critically ill COVID patient. Happened in Melbourne.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




One case, scientifically invalid, the doctor is trying to get funding. One case doesn't mean anything and previous trials showed no gains in vitamin C therapy. 
I am disappointed in the ABC for falling for this like they were in A Current Affair.

There was a real study with many patients showing Vitamin D can provide some enhancement to fighting the virus but that is still early days


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Pretty sad that uneducated people become prey to the anti vaccine lobby but honestly it is their fault for believing in pseudo science.




I've got some pretty educated folks as clientele. Of those with a bachelor degree or above, only two will take the vaccine without waiting for more broad based results.

Notwithstanding that less (tertiary) educated are probably even less likely to take it, attaching a reluctance to take it, to ignorance, is bollox mate.

Waiting = gaining further information and education, rather than trusting a system that has never proven itself to be very trustworthy.


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> It will not go away  You can be sure that after the population is vaccinated the government will reopen the economy and the virus will travel like a normal cold. Everyone not vaccinated will catch it  . So as you say it is a risk reward judgement that you need to make  We know the death rates in the USA where they have lost nearly 0.1% of the population with maybe 10% of the population having caught it so the stat you quoted is incorrect .



Oh boy, there are many layers of the onion you need to peel there, bro.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> I've got some pretty educated folks as clientele. Of those with a bachelor degree or above, only two will take the vaccine without waiting for more broad based results.
> 
> Notwithstanding that less (tertiary) educated are probably even less likely to take it, attaching a reluctance to take it, to ignorance, is bollox mate.
> 
> Waiting = gaining further information and education, rather than trusting a system that has never proven itself to be very trustworthy.



We aren't in the desperate situation that the USA and GBR in so have the advantage of a huge trial. That said I have a number of family members who are in the medical fields who are very pro.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 December 2020)

Here's a link showing what I said regarding the population.









						The Americans least likely to take a COVID-19 vaccine are the ones being hit hardest by the virus
					

Black Americans are more susceptible to the virus because of the long-term impacts of structural racism. But they're also more likely to be sceptical of the measure heralded as the best chance of ending the virus.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## IFocus (13 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> We aren't in the desperate situation that the USA and GBR in so have the advantage of a huge trial. That said *I have a number of family members who are in the medical fields who are very pro.*




Same here.

And inside info from one of the trials is that the safety aspects for the normal population are very good and have been well tested.

As I said earlier the major issues are the out lying medical conditions not subjected to normal testing.

One where the vaccine wont work is those on immune suppressors, they wont respond to the vaccine longer term so wont get benefit its up to everyone else to get vaccinated so they are protected.


----------



## macca (13 December 2020)

basilio said:


> Very interesting story of the use of mega doses of Vitamin C to reverse sepis in a critically ill COVID patient. Happened in Melbourne.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good to see Bas but they have been doing this overseas for at least 6 months, they must have sent it out by snail mail.

Hopefully the medical profession in OZ will act like old fashioned Doctors and do some research, both on line and in lab, share their results and take on board results from OS.

Sitting around waiting for a vaccine is lazy and bordering on malpractice


----------



## DB008 (13 December 2020)

*AstraZeneca To Use Components of the Russian Sputnik V Vaccine*​
The British firm AstraZeneca has accepted a proposal from the Russian Direct Investment Fund (RDIF) and the N.F. Gamaleya Research Center said it and will begin clinical trials of its COVID-19 vaccine candidate in combination with the Sputnik V vaccine's adenoviral vector of the 26th serotype by the end of 2020. Among the leading vaccines against coronavirus at the moment, only Sputnik V has the technology of two different vectors.​​The scheme using two different adenoviral vectors for primary and secondary immunization, which is a unique and fundamental development of specialists from the N.N. N.F. Gamalea, allows you to avoid the immunity to the first vector, which forms after the first immunization, and thereby increase the effectiveness of the second injection and form long-term immunity.​​Kirill Dmitriev, CEO of the RDIF, commented in a press release: 'AstraZeneca's decision to conduct a study using one of the two vectors of the Sputnik V vaccine is an important step towards joining forces in the fight against the pandemic.​


https://www.coronavirustoday.com/2020/12/11/astrazeneca-use-components-russian-sputnik-v-vaccine



.​


----------



## wayneL (13 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> We aren't in the desperate situation that the USA and GBR in so have the advantage of a huge trial. That said I have a number of family members who are in the medical fields who are very pro.



I didn't say they weren't pro vax. They just aren't in a hurry to jump in.

And as I said elsewhere, risk v reward.


----------



## cynic (13 December 2020)

'Tis oft said that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

If the cat resists skinning, as cats are wont to do, simply sue it into bankruptcy!

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/sto...-against-vaccine-volunteer-1745598-2020-12-01


----------



## IFocus (14 December 2020)

Talking to a medical professor yesterday (fascinating) who works in a unrelated field but takes a keen interest in the COVID world.

His concern was the so called "Long COVID" and rattled off a heap of medical problems caused by COVID even though the patients hadn't had a severe case.

One comment was at least thanks to the US there will be plenty of research material to study with so many cases, I also asked about masks.

Got the look followed by the question,  "how many front line COVID health professionals do you see not using them?"


----------



## wayneL (14 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> Talking to a medical professor yesterday (fascinating) who works in a unrelated field but takes a keen interest in the COVID world.
> 
> His concern was the so called "Long COVID" and rattled off a heap of medical problems caused by COVID even though the patients hadn't had a severe case.
> 
> ...



Front line medical professionals know *how* to use them. 

Additionally the purpose have masks is protection against bacteria not necessarily viruses.

When a frontline medical professional uses them there are very precise and particular protocols. as I am often involved in veterinary surgeries. I see these procedures as it relates to animals which are even less stringent than with humans.

Do you think the average schmuck is using these protocols?

LMAO, not bloody likely.

most masks in use have probably been sitting at least part of the time in the console of the Kingswood, amidst the loose change, stale potato chips, and the general detritus that accumulates in the car of a typical person.... A rich, most, and unsterile environment for all sorts of pathogens to set up camp.

I would hazard a guess that in at least 80% of cases mask use is an absolute antithesis of what it is in use in frontline medical staff, and therefore, useless at best, and counterproductive at worst.


----------



## satanoperca (14 December 2020)

Wayne, 
If there was 30 people in a room, each one standing in the middle of a four square meter area.
5 of the people had Covid.
The room was enclosed, say a supermarket.
You had to spend 15minutes in the room, every 5 minutes everyone had to move.

Would you wear any face covering or go it like a trooper and wear none?


----------



## wayneL (14 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Wayne,
> If there was 30 people in a room, each one standing in the middle of a four square meter area.
> 5 of the people had Covid.
> The room was enclosed, say a supermarket.
> ...



I would read the disclaimer that is actually on the box of the masks, it is actually written on there that they provide no protection from viruses.

Additionally, your scenario is precisely what happens every flu season.

I go back, once again, to risk vs reward.

If you feel a mask protects you whether it's true or not, wear one, I really don't care. Unless forced I won't be.

And if forced then I will just withdraw my economic activity as much as possible.

Quite happy to stay home, put up the shutters and trade stocks, options and futures and f*** everyone else rather than tolerate all this bulshit.


----------



## IFocus (14 December 2020)

I have had to wear various types of masks including full face and SCBA for most of my working life, I have a reasonable level of knowledge in regards to what they can and cannot do.

You for what ever reason are not seeing why and what the advantages are / who benefits from populations wearing masks during a pandemic.

Front line COVID health professional's are not wearing masks for bacteria.

As Trump pollicised the wearing masks the numbers seem to speak for the selves a significant higher number of Federal Republicans have caught COVID than Democrat's (roughly 11 Democrats verses 27 Republicans)


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## satanoperca (14 December 2020)

You cannot make commons sense common with a redneck, it is their right not to understand common sense.


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## moXJO (14 December 2020)

You wearing glasses with those masks?

Everyone has to wear a mask to contain infection.

Masks only offer limited protection.
They are their to stop those that are infected from coughing droplets into the air. Your eyes are a weak point.

So you wear a mask to slow the spread. So long as you follow protocol.

Everyone should wear a mask if its going to work.

Front line workers were still getting sick even with all the ppe.

As much as everyone thinks they know, probably a good idea to brush up on the basics.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2020)

This isn't good news, a new strain, will that nullify the vaccine?








						'Terrible blow': Major city plunges back into lockdown as new Covid strain emerges
					

More than nine million people will now be subject to stringent restrictions heading into Christmas after a 'very sharp' rise in infections.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:

_Restrictions in London are to be ramped up to England’s highest tier of Covid-19 guidelines as daily cases in the UK topped 20,000 once again.

The government confirmed the decision on Monday (local time), citing increased infection rates that may be partly linked to a new variant of the coronavirus.

Health Secretary Matt Hancock said more than 1,000 cases of the new variant had been identified, mainly in southeastern England.

Although there was nothing to suggest the new strain was likely to cause more serious disease or that it would not respond to a vaccine, Mr Hancock said it could be contributing to higher infection rates_.


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## IFocus (15 December 2020)

OK gents masks don't work because Donald says so, glad we could finally work that one out.

Spirted defence BTW.


----------



## wayneL (15 December 2020)

Prince Leonard was a genius, a man well before his time.


----------



## wayneL (15 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> OK gents masks don't work because Donald says so, glad we could finally work that one out.
> 
> Spirted defence BTW.



We don't even have to listen to the prognostications of the God Emperor. We need only look at the data.

Let's take the United States for example, which is convenient because they have 50 different jurisdictions each with different approaches and the results of which are entered into the actual data.

At worst there is no difference between unmasked and masked States. But in actual fact the unmasked and relatively unlocked down states are doing better.

Data.

Read it and weep.


----------



## moXJO (15 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> OK gents masks don't work because Donald says so, glad we could finally work that one out.
> 
> Spirted defence BTW.



Check the updated medical studies. 
Or not. Keep wearing a mask without knowing the risks, no skin off my nose. But don't parrot bs information. 

Masks alone offer limited protection.


----------



## satanoperca (15 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Check the updated medical studies.
> Or not. Keep wearing a mask without knowing the risks, no skin off my nose. But don't parrot bs information.
> 
> Masks alone offer limited protection.



When asked to wear one, don't. 

Being a Victorian, and going into lockdown, I hated masks, but they served a purpose, and seem to have worked.

So MoXjo it is you who is the parrot, if you are going to have a stance, at least put the devil in the detail.


----------



## satanoperca (15 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> We don't even have to listen to the prognostications of the God Emperor. We need only look at the data.
> 
> Let's take the United States for example, which is convenient because they have 50 different jurisdictions each with different approaches and the results of which are entered into the actual data.
> 
> ...



Excuses, excuses, excuses, keep up the narrative of your god, but they are still excuses.

Or are 300,000 dead people wrong.

Or I am wrong and this virus which is killing USA citizens will "Just disappear"


----------



## wayneL (15 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Excuses, excuses, excuses, keep up the narrative of your god, but they are still excuses.
> 
> Or are 300,000 dead people wrong.
> 
> Or I am wrong and this virus which is killing USA citizens will "Just disappear"



Zzzzz...zzzz....zzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> When asked to wear one, don't.
> 
> Being a Victorian, and going into lockdown, I hated masks, but they served a purpose, and seem to have worked.
> 
> So MoXjo it is you who is the parrot, if you are going to have a stance, at least put the devil in the detail.



The stance is: everyone has to wear one for it to be of significance.

They do not provide complete protection. Air goes in the sides. If you exhale too much moisture, they clog when they get damp and the air comes through the sides.

You have to follow strict procedures. As an example: even front line workers were getting it, with full ppe.

You are in just as much danger being uneducated about the issue. 

Yes I can post a bunch of links.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> We don't even have to listen to the prognostications of the God Emperor. We need only look at the data.
> 
> Let's take the United States for example, which is convenient because they have 50 different jurisdictions each with different approaches and the results of which are entered into the actual data.
> 
> ...




Once again you cite no evidence.

Where is the data you are looking at ?


----------



## IFocus (16 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> The stance is: everyone has to wear one for it to be of significance.
> 
> They do not provide complete protection. Air goes in the sides. If you exhale too much moisture, they clog when they get damp and the air comes through the sides.
> 
> ...





Mo....please, please read up on masks types and uses, your understanding of the limits and advantages are at best pedestrian, seriously.

The defence / down playing BTW of Trump politicking many of the issues around COVID (masks being only one of many) lack of any form of leadership is an extortionary insight into the parallel world of Trump-ism. 

It really is at least for me a education.

Politics is one thing, but politicians using health issues really is next level.

This is the fuel / leading edge that gives rise to dictators /  authoritarianism IMHO. 

Certainly its tested the democratic institutions in the US and at state level regardless of political alliances people have stood up.

One light at the end of the tunnel looks like being the vaccine hopefully it wont lead to another out break of hostilities that stifles its effectiveness.


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> Mo....please, please read up on masks types and uses, your understanding of the limits and advantages are at best pedestrian, seriously.
> 
> The defence / down playing BTW of Trump politicking many of the issues around COVID (masks being only one of many) lack of any form of leadership is an extortionary insight into the parallel world of Trump-ism.
> 
> ...




What in bloody hell does my post have to do with Trump?

Its obvious people don't understand what masks limitations are here. Thats got nothing to do with Trump. Its about you lot talking out your arse on a subject that a lot of you don't seem to have the facts on. 

Putting on a mask is not a foolproof way to stop covid. In fact it can be just as dangerous for the uneducated. Its bloody reality.


----------



## macca (17 December 2020)

Imagine how frustrating it must be if you are a Doctor and have cured people of Covid by using Vitamin C, Ivermectin, Zinc and DoxyC AB and no one wants to know.

All cheap generic stuff available in every western country, all on PBS here in Oz instead we are injecting people with a rushed vaccine that "might work"

<<A health worker in Alaska suffered a serious allergic reaction after getting Pfizer-BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine and is now hospitalised but stable.

The _New York Times_ reported the person received their jab on Tuesday, and Pfizer confirmed it was working with local authorities to investigate the incident.
Two health workers in Britain had similar allergic reactions, causing the government there to tell people to avoid getting the shot if they had a history of severe allergies.
The US regulator issued an emergency approval with the warning that people who had known allergies to ingredients inside the vaccine should avoid it>>










						Health worker has serious reaction to vaccine in the US
					

A health worker in Alaska suffered a serious allergic reaction after getting Pfizer-BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine and is now hospitalised but stable.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (17 December 2020)

macca said:


> Imagine how frustrating it must be if you are a Doctor and have cured people of Covid by using Vitamin C, Ivermectin, Zinc and DoxyC AB and no one wants to know.
> 
> All cheap generic stuff available in every western country, all on PBS here in Oz instead we are injecting people with a rushed vaccine that "might work"
> 
> ...



One of our main problems in the West in fighting the Covid-19 virus and giving a vaccine is Democracy.

Another is a Free Press.

We really need a bit of authoritarianism and biff like the Chinese give to anyone of their citizens stepping out of line for the common good. 

gg


----------



## macca (17 December 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of our main problems in the West in fighting the Covid-19 virus and giving a vaccine is Democracy.
> 
> Another is a Free Press.
> 
> ...




Sorry GG,

But our press is far from free, the big online entities are censoring a lot of news that may weaken the case for a vaccine.

Professor Borody has been in contact with both federal and state governments for months with a proven, easy, cheap cure and no one wants to know about it.

In the USA there was Senate committee meeting where Doctors fully explained why and how the treatment worked, it has been  censored online a number of times

We have lost a Lot of our freedoms this past year.


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of our main problems in the West in fighting the Covid-19 virus and giving a vaccine is Democracy.
> 
> Another is a Free Press.
> 
> ...



I'll take the virus, thanks.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> I'll take the virus, thanks.



Rather a Black Knight approach. I'll take genomics. Mine over Covid-19.

gg


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2020)




----------



## Knobby22 (18 December 2020)

wayneL said:


>




People pass out all the time from injections, common as mud. That's why they make you sit down.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 December 2020)

wayneL said:


>




I will be getting the popcorn out when they give it to Rudd live on TV I believe at his request.

gg


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> People pass out all the time from injections, common as mud. That's why they make you sit down.



It happened 17mins after the injection. I thought it was during or just after.

Not a good look.


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> It happened 17mins after the injection. I thought it was during or just after.
> 
> Not a good look.




Yep I have seen people faint, but as Mo points out it is almost immediately.... The ones I know about anyway.


----------



## moXJO (19 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Yep I have seen people faint, but as Mo points out it is almost immediately.... The ones I know about anyway.



I'd say unfortunate for all those involved. Couldn't ask for worse optics. She was fine not long after and said something along the lines of "pain tolerance".


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 December 2020)

_"Nothing to see here. 

Move on and get yer vaccination. " ( copper takes out truncheon as walks towards person thumb surfing "vaccination" on mobile phone )._

I still reckon democracy and a free press are more dangerous to the West than any vaccination. 

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (19 December 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> _"Nothing to see here.
> 
> Move on and get yer vaccination. " ( copper takes out truncheon as walks towards person thumb surfing "vaccination" on mobile phone )._
> 
> ...




Democracy is the  worst form of government, apart from all the others.


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## DB008 (21 December 2020)

*Brazil's Bolsonaro mocks possible side effects of Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine*







.​


----------



## DB008 (22 December 2020)

​


----------



## moXJO (26 December 2020)

Anyone have data on the Chinese vaccine?


----------



## IFocus (27 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Anyone have data on the Chinese vaccine?





Haven't seen anything (DB008?) but Indonesian are going to use it expect to ignore Indo government data and look for inside information to get a sense of its efficacy.


----------



## DB008 (27 December 2020)

I think there are 5 Coronavirus vaccines in development in China.

I haven't really been up to date with what is going on with China to be honest.


*Sinovac is developing Coronavac*
CoronaVac is an inactivated vaccine. It has recently been shipped to Indonesia.  It’s manufactured by growing the COVID virus in laboratories and treating it with a chemical that inactivates it. The chemical locks the virus in a state where it’s unable to replicate, but its structure is maintained, allowing the body to recognise it as foreign and mount an immune response.
It’s also delivered with an adjuvant, an immune stimulant that’s given to improve the protective response. The phase 3 trials have recruited tens of thousands of participants to test vaccine efficacy and safety, and are taking place in Brazil, Indonesia and Turkey.


*Sinopharm* is developing 2 vaccines (the United Arab Emirates, a site of ongoing phase 3 trials, granted emergency use for one of Sinopharm’s vaccines in September, following testing in 31,000 participants).


*Cansino* - using a adenovirus to deliver a coronavirus protein. Phase 3 clinical trials, which began in August, are ongoing in countries including Saudi Arabia.


*Anhui Zhifei Longcom* has developed a protein subunit COVID-19 vaccine. Subunit vaccines use a purified piece of the virus, a protein, to trigger an immune response. It has recently started phase 3 clinical trials. There hasn’t yet been any announcement or published report of the results of phase 1 and 2 trials.


https://theconversation.com/chinas-...ork-and-where-are-they-up-to-in-trials-151589




*CoronaVac


Safety, tolerability, and immunogenicity of an inactivated SARS-CoV-2 vaccine in healthy adults aged 18–59 years: a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase 1/2 clinical trial*​

*Summary - November 17, 2020.


Background*

With the unprecedented morbidity and mortality associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, a vaccine against COVID-19 is urgently needed. We investigated CoronaVac (Sinovac Life Sciences, Beijing, China), an inactivated vaccine candidate against COVID-19, containing inactivated severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), for its safety, tolerability and immunogenicity.​

*Methods*

In this randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase 1/2 clinical trial, healthy adults aged 18–59 years were recruited from the community in Suining County of Jiangsu province, China. Adults with SARS-CoV-2 exposure or infection history, with axillary temperature above 37·0°C, or an allergic reaction to any vaccine component were excluded. The experimental vaccine for the phase 1 trial was manufactured using a cell factory process (CellSTACK Cell Culture Chamber 10, Corning, Wujiang, China), whereas those for the phase 2 trial were produced through a bioreactor process (ReadyToProcess WAVE 25, GE, Umea, Sweden). The phase 1 trial was done in a dose-escalating manner. At screening, participants were initially separated (1:1), with no specific randomisation, into two vaccination schedule cohorts, the days 0 and 14 vaccination cohort and the days 0 and 28 vaccination cohort, and within each cohort the first 36 participants were assigned to block 1 (low dose CoronaVac [3 μg per 0·5 mL of aluminium hydroxide diluent per dose) then another 36 were assigned to block 2 (high-dose Coronavc [6 μg per 0·5 mL of aluminium hydroxide diluent per dse]). Within each block, participants were randomly assigned (2:1), using block randomisation with a block size of six, to either two doses of CoronaVac or two doses of placebo. In the phase 2 trial, at screening, participants were initially separated (1:1), with no specific randomisation, into the days 0 and 14 vaccination cohort and the days 0 and 28 vaccination cohort, and participants were randomly assigned (2:2:1), using block randomisation with a block size of five, to receive two doses of either low-dose CoronaVac, high-dose CoronaVac, or placebo. Participants, investigators, and laboratory staff were masked to treatment allocation. The primary safety endpoint was adverse reactions within 28 days after injection in all participants who were given at least one dose of study drug (safety population). The primary immunogenic outcome was seroconversion rates of neutralising antibodies to live SARS-CoV-2 at day 14 after the last dose in the days 0 and 14 cohort, and at day 28 after the last dose in the days 0 and 28 cohort in participants who completed their allocated two-dose vaccination schedule (per-protocol population). This trial is registered with ClinicalTrials.gov, NCT04352608, and is closed to accrual.​​
*Findings*

Between April 16 and April 25, 2020, 144 participants were enrolled in the phase 1 trial, and between May 3 and May 5, 2020, 600 participants were enrolled in the phase 2 trial. 743 participants received at least one dose of investigational product (n=143 for phase 1 and n=600 for phase 2; safety population). In the phase 1 trial, the incidence of adverse reactions for the days 0 and 14 cohort was seven (29%) of 24 participants in the 3 ug group, nine (38%) of 24 in the 6 μg group, and two (8%) of 24 in the placebo group, and for the days 0 and 28 cohort was three (13%) of 24 in the 3 μg group, four (17%) of 24 in the 6 μg group, and three (13%) of 23 in the placebo group. The seroconversion of neutralising antibodies on day 14 after the days 0 and 14 vaccination schedule was seen in 11 (46%) of 24 participants in the 3 μg group, 12 (50%) of 24 in the 6 μg group, and none (0%) of 24 in the placebo group; whereas at day 28 after the days 0 and 28 vaccination schedule, seroconversion was seen in 20 (83%) of 24 in the 3 μg group, 19 (79%) of 24 in the 6 μg group, and one (4%) of 24 in the placebo group. In the phase 2 trial, the incidence of adverse reactions for the days 0 and 14 cohort was 40 (33%) of 120 participants in the 3 μg group, 42 (35%) of 120 in the 6 μg group, and 13 (22%) of 60 in the placebo group, and for the days 0 and 28 cohort was 23 (19%) of 120 in the 3 μg group, 23 (19%) of 120 in the 6 μg group, and 11 (18%) of 60 for the placebo group. Seroconversion of neutralising antibodies was seen for 109 (92%) of 118 participants in the 3 μg group, 117 (98%) of 119 in the 6 μg group, and two (3%) of 60 in the placebo group at day 14 after the days 0 and 14 schedule; whereas at day 28 after the days 0 and 28 schedule, seroconversion was seen in 114 (97%) of 117 in the 3 μg group, 118 (100%) of 118 in the 6 μg group, and none (0%) of 59 in the placebo group.​

*Interpretation*

Taking safety, immunogenicity, and production capacity into account, the 3 μg dose of CoronaVac is the suggested dose for efficacy assessment in future phase 3 trials.​

*Funding*

Chinese National Key Research and Development Program and Beijing Science and Technology Program.​

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30843-4/fulltext​


----------



## moXJO (27 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> Haven't seen anything (DB008?) but Indonesian are going to use it expect to ignore Indo government data and look for inside information to get a sense of its efficacy.



Getting rolled out through the middle East as well.


----------



## DB008 (27 December 2020)

Yeah, sounds like there have been a few people with side effects. But on the scale of things, it's probably less than 0.1% ?


----------



## DB008 (27 December 2020)

USA Statistics

I can't copy and paste the data from Bloomberg - please visit the site - very interactive.

Great vaccine tracker towards the bottom of the page too


*More Than 4.2 Million Shots

Given: Covid-19 Vaccine Tracker*​
*The U.S. has administered 1.94 million doses, according to the CDC*​
The biggest vaccination campaign in history has begun. More than 4.2 million doses in seven countries have been administered, according to data collected by Bloomberg. Delivering billions more will be one of the greatest logistical challenges ever undertaken.​​Vaccinations in the U.S. began Dec. 14 with health-care workers, and so far 1.94 million doses have been administered, according to a nationwide tally from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Bloomberg is also tracking doses at the state and territory level to give a picture of how the rollout is going nationwide..​
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/



.​


----------



## DB008 (28 December 2020)

Great read



*Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine: Bogus reports, accidental finds - the story of the jab*​

In the early hours of Saturday 11 January, Prof Teresa Lambe was woken up by the ping of her email. The information she had been waiting for had just arrived in her inbox: the genetic code for a new coronavirus, shared worldwide by scientists in China.​​She got to work straight away, still in her pyjamas, and was glued to her laptop for the next 48 hours. "My family didn't see me very much that weekend, but I think that set the tone for the rest of the year," she says.​​By Monday morning, she had it: the template for a new experimental coronavirus vaccine. The first death from the new virus was reported around the same time, but it was still a month before the disease it causes was named Covid-19.​​Lambe's team at Oxford University's Jenner Institute, led by Prof Sarah Gilbert, was always on the lookout for Disease X - the name given to the unknown infectious agent that could trigger the next pandemic. They had already used their experimental vaccine system against malaria and flu and, crucially, against another type of coronavirus, Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome (Mers). So they were confident it could work again.​
The checks did not fail, and after seven weeks they had enough doses of the vaccine to start the first trial. By this stage 10,000 volunteers had been recruited - all of them signing up within a matter of hours. Elisa Granato, a microbiologist, and Edward O'Neill, a cancer researcher, were the first two to receive Oxford's trial jab in April.

For Lambe, the vaccination of the first individuals was a monumental step. "I remember walking home from the lab and almost breaking down because we had a vaccine and got it into somebody's arm," she says.

The team waited 48 hours to check Granato and O'Neill had had no serious adverse reactions. With both doing well, they immunised a further six volunteers, and then gradually ramped up the numbers.

But only a few days later there were shocking reports on social media that the first volunteer, Granato, had died.

It wasn't true. I spoke to her that day, and she told me she had never felt better. I posted a bit of the interview online. It helped quash the story, but not completely. Bizarrely, there were suggestions the interview might be fake and she really needed to hold up that day's newspaper to the camera as "proof of life".

"It was very upsetting," says Gilbert. "A lot of work had to be done, for her sake as well as for the trial's sake, to make it clear that this was just fake news."

Disinformation spreads fast and has the potential to undo months of hard work. Green found it very stressful. "Oh God it's awful! To think how malicious that can be, how people are really spreading nasty things… that doesn't feel fair because my team were all doing their best," she says.

As the trial grew, it was clear that Oxford's small manufacturing facility would not be able to keep up with demand. The team decided to outsource some of the manufacturing to Italy. But when the first batch was ready, there was a snag - the Europe-wide lockdown meant there were no flights to airlift it from Rome.

"Eventually we chartered a plane to bring 500 doses of vaccine because it was the only way we could get it here in time," says Green.
This is a really important part of the story which ended up being highly significant months later.

The Italian manufacturers used a different technique to Oxford to check the concentration of the vaccine - effectively how many viral particles are floating in each dose. When the Oxford scientists used their method, it appeared that the Italian vaccine was double strength. What to do? 

Calls were made to the medical regulators. It was agreed that volunteers should be given a half measure of the vaccine, on the basis that it was likely to equate to something more like a regular dose. This was partly a safety issue - they preferred to give them too little rather than too much.

But after a week, the scientists became aware that something unusual was going on. The volunteers were getting none of the usual side-effects - such as sore arms or fever. About 1,300 volunteers had only received a half-dose of the vaccine, rather than a full one. The independent regulators said the trial should continue and that the half-dose group could remain in the study.

The Oxford team bristle at any suggestion that there was a mistake, error, call it what you will. Perhaps the most accurate characterisation is that the volunteers were inadvertently given a lower dose. In months to come, they would be the stellar group in terms of vaccine efficacy.

From the start, the team at Oxford had had the goal of creating a vaccine that could help the world. To do that they would need billions of doses - something only industry could provide.

In November, two other vaccine trials published their results. They were astonishing. First Pfizer-BioNTech, then a week later Moderna, announced its vaccines were about 95% effective. The team in Oxford were encouraged.

Until then there was uncertainty that any vaccine could work on Covid-19, says Lambe. "There are so many infectious diseases out there that we can't impact."

Finally, on 21 November, the independent data safety committee was ready to reveal the Oxford-AstraZeneca findings. But the results were surprising - and more complex than expected.

Whereas Pfizer and Moderna had one efficacy figure from one big trial each, the Oxford jab ended up with three numbers: 70% overall, with the two full doses giving 62% protection while the smaller group, who were given that initial half dose had the highest protection, had 90%. It was a result no-one had expected.

Crucially, no-one who got the vaccine was hospitalised or got seriously ill due to Covid. Whereas in the control group there were 10 serious cases and one death.

The fact that those who had unwittingly been given the initial half dose from Italy showed stronger protection is intriguing. It may be caused by the immune system being primed more gradually, but the scientists can't yet explain it. Also, all the volunteers in this group were under 55.
​
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55308216?utm_source=pocket-newtab-intl-en



.​


----------



## IFocus (28 December 2020)

Geezzass smaller dose given not because of a scientific strategy but because of circumstances forced on them.

Oh well how ever we get there 

Great to see the safety record held up.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (28 December 2020)

DB008 said:


> ​The fact that those who had unwittingly been given the initial half dose from Italy showed stronger protection is intriguing. It may be caused by the immune system being primed more gradually, but the scientists can't yet explain it. Also, all the volunteers in this group were under 55.​




Ask the virus. 

I must admit I am pessimistic about this vaccine. It is more for investors than any long term health outcome. Never before has a coronavirus vaccine been attempted, because the damn virus changes so quickly. It is Adaptation 101, the coronavirus.

I still await Covid-20 to be announced by the Chinese.

gg


​


----------



## DB008 (28 December 2020)

​​*Australian Government - Department of Health*​
​​​*Australia’s vaccine agreements*​
​​Australia has entered into 4 separate agreements for the supply of COVID-19 vaccines, if they are proved to be safe and effective.​​​​*University of Oxford/AstraZeneca*​​

Status​Type​Developer​Likely Doses*​Phase 3 clinical trials​Viral vector vaccine​AstraZeneca​2​
*Based on early trial results

​​*Novavax*​​
Status​Type​Developer​Likely Doses*​Phase 3 clinical trials​Protein vaccine​Novavax Inc.​2​
​​​*Pfizer/BioNTech*​​
Status​Type​Developer​Likely Doses*​Phase 3 clinical trials​mRNA-based vaccine​Pfizer/BioNTech​2​
​​​​*COVAX Facility*​​​The Australian Government has joined the COVAX Facility as part of a global effort to support rapid, fair and equitable access to COVID-19 vaccines. This participation enables us to purchase vaccine doses for Australia as they become available. Currently 188 countries around the world have entered into the COVAX Facility. The participation of countries like Australia means the facility can invest in a diverse portfolio of potential COVID-19 vaccines and support vaccine manufacturers. It is aiming to mobilise 2 billion doses for the world by the end of 2021, addressing the acute phase of the pandemic. COVAX is coordinated by Gavi with help from member countries, the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI), the World Health Organization, and UNICEF.​​​*Australia’s commitments to the COVAX Facility*​​The Australian Government has made 2 financial commitments to Gavi’s COVAX Facility for the supply of safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines:​​
An upfront payment of $123.2 million to allow the purchase of over 25,000,000 doses of COVID-19 vaccines for the Australian population. This would be sufficient for 50 percent of the population to receive a 2 dose regimen.
A further $80 million to support vaccine access for up to 94 lower-income countries through the Facility’s Advanced Market Commitment.
​*Doses for Australia*​​Before any vaccines will be made available, they must be approved for use in Australia. This includes the Therapeutic Goods Administration’s (TGA) rigorous assessment and approval processes for safety, quality and effectiveness. The TGA is actively monitoring COVID-19 vaccine development that is occurring both in Australia and around the world.​​Potential COVAX Facility vaccines The following 9 vaccine candidates are in various clinical trial stages and, if found successful, will be included in the COVAX Facility.​​​
Developer​Type​Status​AstraZeneca / University of Oxford​Viral vector vaccine​Phase 3 clinical trials​Novavax​Protein subunit vaccine​Phase 3 clinical trials​Moderna​mRNA based vaccine​Phase 3 clinical trials​CureVac​mRNA based vaccine​Phase 2 clinical trials​Sanofi / GSK​Protein subunit vaccine P​Phase 1/2 clinical trials​Inovio​DNA based vaccine Ph​Phase 1/2 clinical trials​Clover Biopharmaceuticals / GSK / Dynavax​Protein subunit vaccine​Phase 1 clinical trials​Institut Pasteur / Merck / Themis​Viral vector vaccine​Phase 1 clinical trials​University of Hong Kong​Viral vector vaccine​Preclinical​
​​*Supporting our region*​​Access to safe and effective vaccines will play a critical role in the economic recovery of our region from this pandemic. Supporting our regional neighbours to access doses will progress health outcomes, and help open up movement of people and goods. This will enable economic recovery and longer-term resilience of the Pacific and South East Asia.​​​​







						Australia’s vaccine agreements
					

Australia has entered into 4 separate agreements for the supply of COVID-19 vaccines, if they are proved to be safe and effective.




					www.health.gov.au
				


​​​.​


----------



## DB008 (4 January 2021)

*Moderna*


*The New England Journal of Medicine*




*Efficacy and Safety of the mRNA-1273 SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine*​

*Abstract*​​​*BACKGROUND*​​Vaccines are needed to prevent coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19) and to protect persons who are at high risk for complications. The mRNA-1273 vaccine is a lipid nanoparticle–encapsulated mRNA-based vaccine that encodes the prefusion stabilized full-length spike protein of the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the virus that causes Covid-19.​​​*METHODS*​​This phase 3 randomized, observer-blinded, placebo-controlled trial was conducted at 99 centers across the United States. Persons at high risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection or its complications were randomly assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive two intramuscular injections of mRNA-1273 (100 μg) or placebo 28 days apart. The primary end point was prevention of Covid-19 illness with onset at least 14 days after the second injection in participants who had not previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2.​​​*RESULTS*​​The trial enrolled 30,420 volunteers who were randomly assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive either vaccine or placebo (15,210 participants in each group). More than 96% of participants received both injections, and 2.2% had evidence (serologic, virologic, or both) of SARS-CoV-2 infection at baseline. Symptomatic Covid-19 illness was confirmed in 185 participants in the placebo group (56.5 per 1000 person-years; 95% confidence interval [CI], 48.7 to 65.3) and in 11 participants in the mRNA-1273 group (3.3 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 1.7 to 6.0); vaccine efficacy was 94.1% (95% CI, 89.3 to 96.8%; P<0.001). Efficacy was similar across key secondary analyses, including assessment 14 days after the first dose, analyses that included participants who had evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection at baseline, and analyses in participants 65 years of age or older. Severe Covid-19 occurred in 30 participants, with one fatality; all 30 were in the placebo group. Moderate, transient reactogenicity after vaccination occurred more frequently in the mRNA-1273 group. Serious adverse events were rare, and the incidence was similar in the two groups.​​​*CONCLUSIONS*​​The mRNA-1273 vaccine showed 94.1% efficacy at preventing Covid-19 illness, including severe disease. Aside from transient local and systemic reactions, no safety concerns were identified. (Funded by the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority and the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases; COVE ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04470427. opens in new tab.)​



https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2035389?query=featured_coronavirus



.​


----------



## cynic (8 January 2021)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...two-days-after-getting-pfizer-jab/ar-BB1csBhR


----------



## DB008 (16 January 2021)

Rubbish


*Sinovac: Brazil results show Chinese vaccine 50.4% effective*​
A coronavirus vaccine developed by China's Sinovac has been found to be 50.4% effective in Brazilian clinical trials, according to the latest results released by researchers.​​It shows the vaccine is significantly less effective than previous data suggested - barely over the 50% needed for regulatory approval.​​The Chinese vaccine is one of two that the Brazilian government has lined up.​​Brazil has been one of the countries worst affected by Covid-19.​​Sinovac, a Beijing-based biopharmaceutical company, is behind CoronaVac, an inactivated vaccine. It works by using killed viral particles to expose the body's immune system to the virus without risking a serious disease response.​
Several countries, including Indonesia, Turkey and Singapore, have placed orders for the vaccine.

Last week researchers at the Butantan Institute, which has been conducting the trials in Brazil, announced that the vaccine had a 78% efficacy against "mild-to-severe" Covid-19 cases.

But on Tuesday they revealed that calculations for this figure did not include data from a group of "very mild infections" among those who received the vaccine that did not require clinical assistance.

With the inclusion of this data, the efficacy rate is now 50.4%, said researchers.

But Butantan stressed that the vaccine is 78% effective in preventing mild cases that needed treatment and 100% effective in staving off moderate to serious cases.

The Sinovac trials have yielded different results across different countries.

Last month Turkish researchers said the Sinovac vaccine was 91.25% effective, while Indonesia, which rolled out its mass vaccination programme on Wednesday, said it was 65.3% effective. Both were interim results from late-stage trials.​
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-55642648



.​


----------



## cynic (17 January 2021)

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/jean_de_la_fontaine_107696

https://www.9news.com.au/national/p...e-deaths/5211cd3b-7e66-4207-82c3-866402106c08


----------



## noirua (3 February 2021)

Sputnik V vaccine has 91.6% efficacy against symptomatic Covid, Russian trial suggests
					

Preliminary findings based on analysis of data from more than 20,000 participants




					www.theguardian.com
				



The Sputnik V vaccine, which has been the subject of scepticism since Russia began using it last year before trials had ended, is 91.6% effective against symptomatic Covid according to data published in one of the world’s leading medical journals.


----------



## bellenuit (12 February 2021)

Interesting data from Israel. They started vaccinating the 60+ age group before the rest of the general population. Looks pretty convincing for the efficacy of the vaccine.


----------



## moXJO (12 February 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Interesting data from Israel. They started vaccinating the 60+ age group before the rest of the general population. Looks pretty convincing for the efficacy of the vaccine.
> 
> View attachment 119952



Looking forward to being able to travel again. Hopefully it all works.


----------



## satanoperca (12 February 2021)

China looks a better option than Victoria


----------



## DB008 (15 February 2021)

Headline should really read, "Vaccine developed by BioNtech, distributed by Pfizer".


Israeli study finds 94% drop in symptomatic COVID-19 cases with Pfizer vaccine​

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel’s largest healthcare provider on Sunday reported a 94% drop in symptomatic COVID-19 infections among 600,000 people who received two doses of the Pfizer’s vaccine in the country’s biggest study to date.​​Health maintenance organization (HMO) Clalit, which covers more than half of all Israelis, said the same group was also 92% less likely to develop severe illness from the virus.​​The comparison was against a group of the same size, with matching medical histories, who had not received the vaccine.​​“It shows unequivocally that Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine is extremely effective in the real world a week after the second dose, just as it was found to be in the clinical study,” said Ran Balicer, Clalit’s chief innovation officer.​​He added that the data indicates the Pfizer vaccine, which was developed in partnership with Germany’s BioNTech, is even more effective two weeks or more after the second shot.​
Researchers at the Weizmann Institute of Science, who have been tabulating national data, said on Sunday that a sharp decline in hospitalisation and serious illness identified earlier among the first age group to be vaccinated - aged 60 or older - was seen for the first time in those aged 55 and older.​​Hospitalisations and serious illness were still rising in younger groups who began vaccinations weeks later.​​Israel has been conducting a rapid vaccine rollout and its database offers insights into vaccine effectiveness and at what point countries might attain herd immunity.​


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...l-vaccine-idUSKBN2AE0Q2?utm_source=reddit.com



.​


----------



## Telamelo (21 February 2021)

*Prime Minister Scott Morrison will today be among the first Australians to be vaccinated with the Pfizer jab, not the AstraZeneca vaccine that most Australians will receive.
*
The efficacy of the AstraZeneca efficacy with a standard, two-dose schedule is only 62 per cent.

In comparison, the efficacy of Pfizer/BioNTech’s vaccine is 95 per cent, while interim results suggest the Novavax vaccine has an efficacy of 89 per cent.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewal...l-new-study-reportedly-shows/?sh=5f81e2a14913

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/should-australia-be-reconsidering-its-rollout-of-the-astrazeneca-vaccine


----------



## The Triangle (3 April 2021)

Seven deaths in UK among AstraZeneca vaccine recipients after blood clots
					

The UK medical regulator said Saturday that out of 30 people who suffered blood clots after receiving the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, seven have died.




					www.france24.com
				




We dont have covid issues in australia so why is the government rushing us to get jabbed with an inferior vaccine that is killing people when we could wait and get pfizer that is better and doesn't kill (yet)   

Blood clot already happened in qld.


----------



## cynic (4 April 2021)

I heard a funny thing about Pfizer on my way to the forum:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pfizer-health-concerns-idUSKBN28K2R6

These days it is hard to sort the facts from the fictions, leading me to wonder why there are no fact checked, fact checks, particularly considering how many of the published fact checks invariably favour fashionable narratives.
However, the aforelinked "fact check", did make some surprising (to myself at least) admissions, hence my reason for being willing to post it here.


----------



## grah33 (8 April 2021)

cynic said:


> It looks like those dependent upon welfare, won't have any say in the matter:
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-20/coronavirus-vaccine-link-to-government-payments/12577618
> 
> Given the marked increase in the welfare dependency of the Australian populace, courtesy of covid19 lockdowns, this would be tantamount to a defacto mandation of the vaccine for the vast majority of Australians.



i hope not.   I don't  trust those vaccines .  but i kind of predicted this might happen  

Musk seems to have a fair view: if you're not immunocompromised, u shouldn't have to take it.


----------



## grah33 (8 April 2021)

__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.noosanews.com.au


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## sptrawler (9 April 2021)

The Triangle said:


> Seven deaths in UK among AstraZeneca vaccine recipients after blood clots
> 
> 
> The UK medical regulator said Saturday that out of 30 people who suffered blood clots after receiving the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, seven have died.
> ...



Because the media is making a huge issue of the speed of the roll out, then when it becomes a cluster fluck, the media will make a huge issue of that.
It just is the way life is today, 90% of people believe what the media says and the media relies on that 90 % to keep believing them, or they go out of business.
By the way, I received an email from a distant relative in the U.K on the weekend, he said and I quote:
" We had our first jab about two months ago and should get our second vaccinations soon, but have not yet got a date. Over 30 million people in UK have had at least one jab".
He and his wife are in their early to mid 70's.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Because the media is making a huge issue of the speed of the roll out, then when it becomes a cluster fluck, the media will make a huge issue of that.
> It just is the way life is today, 90% of people believe what the media says and the media relies on that 90 % to keep believing them, or they go out of business.
> By the way, I received an email from a distant relative in the U.K on the weekend, he said and I quote:
> " We had our first jab about two months ago and should get our second vaccinations soon, but have not yet got a date. Over 30 million people in UK have had at least one jab".
> He and his wife are in their early to mid 70's.



The media just picks up on what is now obvious in that it *IS* a flustercluck.   Morrison could not organise a chook raffle .
We hardly have to worry about what the media say given the government's own data shows they have botched it.

Just up the road the backward nation of Nepal, with a few million more people than OZ, has already inoculated 1.7 million citizens.  If our pathetic media knew this they would make Morrison look even more incompetent.

The saddest feature of what is occurring is that apart from the fraught AstraZeneca vaccine, the IP owners of vaccines currently available are unwilling to release it under the WHO waiver program.  If you read the link you will appreciate their argument is beyond pathetic.  Operation Warp Speed as an example put massive government funding into vaccine development, as did many other governments.  The simple reality is that if a similar pandemic were ever to recur then no single company or nation could ever be relied to produce an effective vaccine, let alone in the quantity and timeliness necessary to beat it.

In terms of where the world today stands the so called "developed world" has seen around 85% of available vaccines used for its citizens, while the so called "undeveloped world" has been able to access *less than ONE percent*.

*The biggest concern*:  As we have learned, variants of covid are now having a devastating effect on some nations, and if the undeveloped world cannot get to herd immunity much quicker, then it's possible a future variant will *not *respond to present vaccines.  That would make the past year's vaccine efforts redundant, all because the west thinks that a profit motive can defeat a pandemic.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2021)

An international snapshot of vaccine rollouts:


----------



## IFocus (11 April 2021)

Media have nothing to do with current short fall of vacations or problems, Morrison has said we were at the front of the que with lots of options apparently that's some where behind more than a hundred other countries.

Big media presentations in front of lots of Australian flags spinning big expectations saying we are going great when we are not sum-up a no policy government.

 The slow roll out will cost us economically and possibly death rates heaven forbid a variant gets loose and that's not the variants currently circulating far worse are possible. 

Note the US and UK are scrambling to get the 1st round out so booster shots can be  then made available to fight variants which are now appearing. 

We wont be any where near that time line late 2022 or early 2023 is looking like open borders for Australia... maybe.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2021)

There isn't many Countries with as little cases as Australia, I know most of the people I know and have talked to in Perth/Mandurah area aren't worried, because there isn't any cases and they would rather the vaccine is sorted before they get it.
I know i'm not rushing in at the moment, or trying to push to the front of the queue. 
If i get a call up, I will pass my go, to one of you concerned people. 😂


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2021)

rederob said:


> An international snapshot of vaccine rollouts:
> 
> View attachment 122673



Maybe it could be put in context, as to the percentage, of their respective populations?  Looks like the U.K have done wellover 50% of their population, which is good, they had a pretty nasty outbreak there.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There isn't many Countries with as little cases as Australia, I know most of the people I know and have talked to in Perth/Mandurah area aren't worried, because there isn't any cases and they would rather the vaccine is sorted before they get it.
> I know i'm not rushing in at the moment, or trying to push to the front of the queue.
> If i get a call up, I will pass my go, to one of you concerned people. 😂



That somewhat misses the point.
For example international education previously contributed around $40B to the Australian economy and was responsible for well over 100k jobs.  And international tourism injected around $45B into our economy.  These sectors remain decimated.
Meanwhile piddling local covid outbreaks in Australia cause border closures that create havoc with the domestic travel industry and cost non essential businesses dearly due to lockdowns and venue restrictions.

This article in *The Australian* sums up Morrison's incompetence on the vaccine issue.  What is most telling is that despite CSL approaching the federal government in February last year they did nothing to facilitate vaccine manufacture until AstraZeneca approached CSL about production.  Morrison's assurances to us that we would be amongst the first in the world to receive vaccinations drifted into having a_ "front row seat_" (no doubt watching those nations ahead of us), to currently being squirrelled away in the vehicle's trailer. 

If anything sums up how poor Morrison's team has been, it has to be the recent rollout stoush with Gladys Berejiklian.  
Biden knew Trump stuffed up rollout arrangements by not properly involving states in the process.  But, to our collective misfortune, Morrison apparently knows better.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

The good news is one we don't need a rushed roll out, and two, by the time a second corona virus comes out of China we might have a modern state of the art manufacturing plant to handle our own vaccine manufacturing, rather than relying on the ability of overseas manufacturers to design and supply it.
As it is if Morrison had jumped at the AstraZeneca offer, you would be jumping all over him for that, in light of the questions surrounding it, so there is no win with Morrison from rusted on laborites like yourself, complaints are just something he will have to deal with from people always looking for something to go on about.
Fortunately for us our economy has bounced back well from the effects of the virus and people holidaying at home, they have been a boom to the outback, tourism operators supplying overseas holidays have struggled but the retail sector, DIY and home furnishing sectors have had a beano, so there are silver linings in even the most terrible of times.
You can always be a cup half empty guy @rederob rob, it will just depress you.








						Morrison government commits $1 billion over 12 years for new vaccine manufacturing supply
					

The federal government has concluded a $1 billion agreement for a new high-tech manufacturing facility in Melbourne which would produce pandemic influenza vaccines as well as antivenoms.




					theconversation.com
				












						Online sales drive JB Hi-Fi to bumper first half result
					

JB Hi-Fi's sales growth appears to have slowed in the second quarter but the company has still pulled off a good result.




					www.smh.com.au
				











						Home sprucing wave drives Harvey Norman to record result
					

Retailer Harvey Norman has achieved record financial results, more than doubling its first-half net profit, with chairman Gerry Harvey partly crediting the franchise’s success during the pandemic to spaciousness in stores and easy parking.




					www.news.com.au
				











						Nick Scali profit almost doubles during first half - Inside Retail
					

January 2021 was the largest month of written sales orders Nick Scali has ever seen.




					insideretail.com.au
				











						Bunnings owner Wesfarmers warns retail frenzy to ease
					

Bunnings and Kmart were the earnings machines behind Wesfarmers’ surge in half year net profit, while initial results from converted Target stores beat the parent company’s expectations, but the shopping frenzy appears to have peaked.




					www.news.com.au
				







__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.qt.com.au
				











						Forget overseas holidays, these people are saddling up to explore their backyard
					

Equine tourism operators in Western Australia's south-west say they have had to buy more horses to keep up with the booming demand.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						Riding high from tourism influx, the outback's poised for a bumper summer
					

Cashed-up city-dwellers have been flocking to the outback, and it's only expected to get busier when Queensland's border opens to Greater Sydney and Victoria on Tuesday.




					www.brisbanetimes.com.au
				











						Economic rebound to become a grind as normality returns
					

The Australian economy has roared back from the depths of the coronavirus recession, but new forecasts suggest it will now become a grind back to normality.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the last article:
_After suffering the largest quarterly fall in GDP since the 1930s in the March quarter last year, the Australian economy has posted the strongest back-to-back quarters of growth on record. Last week, the International Monetary Fund upgraded its forecasts for the Australian economy, saying it expected it to grow by 4.5 per cent through 2021_.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There isn't many Countries with as little cases as Australia, I know most of the people I know and have talked to in Perth/Mandurah area aren't worried, because there isn't any cases and they would rather the vaccine is sorted before they get it.
> I know i'm not rushing in at the moment, or trying to push to the front of the queue.
> If i get a call up, I will pass my go, to one of you concerned people. 😂



I'm not against vaccines per say, but rushing out one shows two things, one the amount of panic behind covid 19 and two the chances of a problem with the vaccine obviously is higher.








						Should I still turn up for my AstraZeneca appointment? Your questions answered
					

Should I proceed with my scheduled AstraZeneca vaccine? Should I have the second jab if I’ve already had the first? We answer some of the latest COVID-19 questions.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

Thankfully Morrison didn't roll out the vaccine quickly, it would appear now even the doctors are getting nervous about it.








						AstraZeneca jabs remain on hold in Victoria as Merlino calls for compulsory training for health workers
					

The Victorian government could pause administering the AstraZeneca vaccine to people aged under 50 for more than two weeks.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
_The Andrews government cancelled appointments for under 50s on Friday following Commonwealth advice that the risks associated with AstraZeneca jabs may outweigh the benefits.

Victoria also wants compulsory training for health staff to teach them about the AstraZeneca risks, and wants indemnity for GPs, before restarting vaccinations_.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The good news is one we don't need a rushed roll out, and two, by the time a second corona virus comes out of China we might have a modern state of the art manufacturing plant to handle our own vaccine manufacturing, rather than relying on the ability of overseas manufacturers to design and supply it.



Every week's delay in getting to herd immunity costs our economy around $5B, so the notion that it's ok to go slow is not well founded.
That's also ignoring our abysmal efforts on vaccine production and worse on coordinating the actual rollout.

WRT to vaccine production, India are global leaders, not China.
Elsewhere I posted on the gross failure at an international level to agree to a vaccine IP waiver that would enable countries with vaccine production capabilities to get cracking on vaccines doses to meet global needs.  The WHO are pushing for this to happen, but the west are preferring to refocus on an origins blame game.

@sptrawler - we have filled the cup with incompetents.  Australia should have done much better.  And internationally capitalism has failed much of the world by placing profits ahead of people.
Sometimes we deserve the governments we get, but this pandemic has shown us what the real cost can be when leaders are more interested in saving their own bacon than their citizens.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

rederob said:


> Every week's delay in getting to herd immunity costs our economy around $5B, so the notion that it's ok to go slow is not well founded.
> That's also ignoring our abysmal efforts on vaccine production and worse on coordinating the actual rollout.
> 
> WRT to vaccine production, India are global leaders, not China.
> ...



Well jump in and get your AstraZeneca straight away Rob. 

We always fill the cup with incompetents @rederob, that is why Governments in Australia get flipped so often, also why one side gets in office more often they probably have less incompetents on board as a general rule,


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not against vaccines per say, but rushing out one shows two things, one the amount of panic behind covid 19 and two the chances of a problem with the vaccine obviously is higher.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The chances of blood clots are so small that I'd still take it as it's a better alternative to catching covid.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The chances of blood clots are so small that I'd still take it as it's a better alternative to catching covid.



And if we had the same number of covid cases as most overseas Countries, I would agree, but as things are ATM I'm happy for a slow roll out.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> And if we had the same number of covid cases as most overseas Countries, I would agree, but as things are ATM I'm happy for a slow roll out.




Can't disagree there.

Let others sort the problems out.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Can't disagree there.
> 
> Let others sort the problems out.



Who knows, if people had to register online if they wanted the vaccine ASAP, the numbers might be such that the Government could keep up already. 😂


----------



## rederob (12 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well jump in and get your AstraZeneca straight away Rob.



My doctor reckons I might get a jab in 3-4 months, but his clinic is not set up for the rollout.  If they offer AZ then I will wait until a safer alternative is available.  AZ is more likely to harm healthy people than covid.

As to incompetent governments, I reckon Morrison deserves special recognition.  He's a litany of missteps, and this vaccine rollout shows what he is capable of stuffing up.  We were supposed to get the safest vaccines available because we were in no hurry - after being told we would be amongst the first - what a croc!


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

rederob said:


> My doctor reckons I might get a jab in 3-4 months, but his clinic is not set up for the rollout.  If they offer AZ then I will wait until a safer alternative is available.  AZ is more likely to harm healthy people than covid.



Well IMO, at least you are showing some common sense, but it might be fleeting. 😂



rederob said:


> As to incompetent governments, I reckon Morrison deserves special recognition.  He's a litany of missteps, and this vaccine rollout shows what he is capable of stuffing up.  We were supposed to get the safest vaccines available because we were in no hurry - after being told we would be amongst the first - what a croc!



Imagine if Morrison had the AstraZeneca already rolled out to half the population, you would be having a bigger field day than you are now,  he could give you the world and you still would bag him.
The good thing is I get a lot of laughs reading your posts, you must be a real hoot at a BBQ, jumping from why is the roll out so slow, to thank god it is slow I don't want the jab till later.
Everyone must be on suicide watch when they leave the BBQ. 😜


----------



## rederob (12 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Imagine if Morrison had the AstraZeneca already rolled out to half the population, you would be having a bigger field day than you are now,  he could give you the world and you still would bag him.



A fleet of pigs is flying past my window.
Imagine that.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

rederob said:


> A fleet of pigs is flying past my window.
> Imagine that.



I reckon anything could fly past your window Rob, christ knows what you take. 😂


----------



## Humid (12 April 2021)

Lucky its nearly summer lol


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

Apparently now issues are showing up with the Pfizer vaccine now, the media can start and rant about why we ordered another 20million doses of that. 








						South African variant can ‘break through’ Pfizer vaccine, Israeli study says
					

The coronavirus variant discovered in South Africa can “break through” Pfizer/BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine to some extent, a real-world data study in Israel found.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
*Jerusalem:*_ The coronavirus variant discovered in South Africa can “break through” Pfizer/BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine to some extent, a real-world data study in Israel found, though its prevalence in the country is low and the research has not been peer reviewed.

The study, released on Sunday (AEST), compared almost 400 people who had tested positive for COVID-19, 14 days or more after they received one or two doses of the vaccine, against the same number of unvaccinated patients with the disease. It matched age and gender, among other characteristics.
The South African variant, B.1.351, was found to make up about 1 per cent of all the COVID-19 cases across all the people studied, according to the study by Tel Aviv University and Israel’s largest healthcare provider, Clalit.
But among patients who had received two doses of the vaccine, the variant’s prevalence rate was eight times higher than those unvaccinated – 5.4 per cent versus 0.7 per cent.

This suggests the vaccine is less effective against the South African variant, compared with the original coronavirus and a variant first identified in Britain that has come to comprise nearly all COVID-19 cases in Israel, the researchers said.
“We found a disproportionately higher rate of the South African variant among people vaccinated with a second dose, compared to the unvaccinated group. This means that the South African variant is able, to some extent, to break through the vaccine’s protection,” said Tel Aviv University’s Adi Stern_.
_The researchers cautioned, though, that the study only had a small sample size of people infected with the South African variant because of its rarity in Israel.

They also said the research was not intended to deduce overall vaccine effectiveness against any variant, since it only looked at people who had already tested positive for COVID-19, not at overall infection rates_.

_Australia has turned to the Pfizer vaccine for people under 50 following concerns over blood clots caused by the AstraZeneca vaccine. On Friday the Australian government announced it has ordered 20 million additional doses from Pfizer, in addition to 20 million doses it had already ordered.

While the results of the study may cause concern, the low prevalence of the South African strain was encouraging, according to Stern.
“Even if the South African variant does break through the vaccine’s protection, it has not spread widely through the population,” said Stern, adding that the British variant may be “blocking” the spread of the South African strain_.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2021)

Good point raised in Paul Kelly's press conference.

The US has a national vaccine compensation scheme for people adversley affected by vaccines.

Why don't we have one ? 

If the number of cases of covid reaction is so small , it would cost hardly anything.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2021)

Vaccine diplomacy in action:


----------



## sileverback (12 April 2021)

Ironclad Certainty amidst Vaccination Chaos

Worried about the chaos in the vaccination to and fro.
Want to have certainty - somewhere , anywhere, something you can hang onto for sure.

The absolutely certainty is that whenever scummo opens his mouth on anything including vaccination plans, deadlines etc , you can bet that you will get a dump of prime bull****. Whenever he opens that hole
..the one in his face...
get ready to duck!
Don't get slimed.

Place that bet with Ladbrokes
But remember please , gamble responsibly!


----------



## grah33 (13 April 2021)

yeah  I don't  trust the vaccines.

It's doesn't seem necessary for the non-elderly , yet risky as not fully tested , so why would one take it ? and why do they want the non -elderly to take it?  Will they compel us (suspicious) soon?  And it looks like they may not work anyway.

We might be getting onto a course soon where we are getting vaccinated on a regular basis.  Unhealthy in the long term ... 

Musk seems to share similar views:









						Elon Musk took a swipe at Bill Gates and Microsoft Zune with an edited version of an anti-vaccination cartoon
					

Tesla CEO Elon Musk tweeted and deleted an illustration from cartoonist Ben Garrison, which took a potshot at the Microsoft cofounder and vaccines.




					www.businessinsider.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2021)

Interesting article on the state of play in China, with regard the vaccine.








						In a turnaround, China is starting to lose the COVID Cold War
					

The success of Beijing’s lockdown pushed the West into an existential crisis. Now, the success of Western vaccines brings questions about China’s rise.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
In an astonishing admission of weakness, China’s top disease control official has confirmed that the efficacy of the country’s COVID vaccines is low. With trials abroad suggesting that protection rates could be as poor as 50 per cent, the country’s regulator is now considering whether to mix jabs to boost their effectiveness.

This is a catastrophe for China.
The country is stuck in an unsustainable zero COVID trap, only able to maintain an upper hand over the virus by closing its borders to almost all foreigners and limiting domestic travel.

Beijing could be left behind within months, as rival countries reach herd immunity and reopen for global business. On this point, even the Chinese commentariat has been remarkably candid.

State epidemiologists have taken to the airwaves, warning that China’s vaccine rates are insufficient to reach herd immunity by the end of year, let alone the end of the summer.


----------



## rederob (13 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting article on the state of play in China, with regard the vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You need to stop believing everything you read!
I guarantee you that the statement you refer to does not exist.
China's vaccines are around 80% effective.  The chances are that many posting here do not know what that actually means, and that's due to a peculiarity with covid.  With covid you can be asymptomatic, so actually be carrying the disease and not know it.
Another confounding measure is "illness" itself.  With a flu vaccine you either get flu symptoms or you don't, but with a covid vaccine there are literally dozens of possible symptoms yet it's possible that none lead to a positive covid outcome.  Or, for that matter, the symptom may be so mild as to be unsure it's meaningful, eg. cough, headache or muscle ache.
Next is what happens if you do get ill.  From what I have seen published, Chinese vaccines have an extremely low rate of cases needing hospitalisation and none of the trials in multiple countries lead to deaths that were linked to covid.
So while the Chinese vaccines are not in the +90% efficacy range, they also do not have the deaths that are probable from the AZ vaccine.

And is the pot calling the kettle black?


sptrawler said:


> This is a catastrophe for China.* Australia*
> The country is stuck in an unsustainable zero COVID trap, only able to maintain an upper hand over the virus by closing its borders to almost all foreigners and limiting domestic travel.



By the way, Chinese domestic travel is virtually unrestricted: your phone app is the basis for determining if you are allowed to travel.  Moreover, thousands of Chinese are travelling to work on overseas projects if they have been vaccinated.


sptrawler said:


> Beijing *Australia *could be left behind within months, as rival countries reach herd immunity and reopen for global business. On this point, even the Chinese *Australian *commentariat has been remarkably candid.



Perhaps change "candid" (above) to *BRUTAL*.


----------



## Clansman (13 April 2021)

rederob said:


> You need to stop believing everything you read!
> I guarantee you that the statement you refer to does not exist.
> China's vaccines are around 80% effective.  The chances are that many posting here do not know what that actually means, and that's due to a peculiarity with covid.  With covid you can be asymptomatic, so actually be carrying the disease and not know it.
> Another confounding measure is "illness" itself.  With a flu vaccine you either get flu symptoms or you don't, but with a covid vaccine there are literally dozens of possible symptoms yet it's possible that none lead to a positive covid outcome.  Or, for that matter, the symptom may be so mild as to be unsure it's meaningful, eg. cough, headache or muscle ache.
> ...




Surprise surprise, the Chinese vaccine doesn't work.  Who would have thought?? Something from China that doesn't work?
What will they think of next? A submarine that sinks in the dock?   I almost forgot, they've already achieved that.


----------



## rederob (13 April 2021)

Clansman said:


> Surprise surprise, the Chinese vaccine doesn't work.  Who would have thought?? Something from China that doesn't work?
> What will they think of next? A submarine that sinks in the dock?   I almost forgot, they've already achieved that.



This forum has rules about trolling so please acquaint yourself with them.


----------



## Clansman (13 April 2021)

rederob said:


> This forum has rules about trolling so please acquaint yourself with them.




I believe it has rules about telling the truth. This isn't China you know.


----------



## wabullfrog (13 April 2021)

J&J vaccine is also having rare but serious blood clot cases.









						US calls for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccinations over blood clot concerns
					

The FDA and CDC announced Tuesday that they are calling for an immediate pause on the use of the single-dose Johnson & Johnson vaccine on Tuesday.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## SirRumpole (13 April 2021)

rederob said:


> You need to stop believing everything you read!
> I guarantee you that the statement you refer to does not exist.




So you are a mouthpiece for Chinese propaganda now rob ?

The statement was reported on Al Jazerera, usually a reliable source.









						Chinese vaccines’ effectiveness low, official admits
					

Efficacy of a coronavirus vaccine from Sinovac – one of main jabs – has been found to be as low as 50.4 percent.




					www.aljazeera.com
				




Of course China is going to refute that, like it stopped doctors from speaking out.

You seem to be taking China's side on everything.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So you are a mouthpiece for Chinese propaganda now rob ?
> 
> The statement was reported on Al Jazerera, usually a reliable source.



I rely on evidence @SirRumpole and most newspapers reported (many by syndication) an inference, *not what was actually said*. Furthermore the inference was then embellished by most media sources.  Or, as in @sptrawler's post, they just made additional stupid comments: you could have added dozens of other countries that have closed their borders to control covid, while over 100 nations - including Australia - will not reach herd immunity until some time in 2022 when global vaccine production reaches excess capacity and Covax has done its job.
Your source reminds of the evidence that led Australia to join the USA in a war against Iraq.  But read carefully and you will see that _*Al Jazeera*_ did *not *have "Chinese vaccines" in quotation marks because Dao Fu did not refer to them - I give them credit for that level of accuracy.


SirRumpole said:


> Of course China is going to refute that, like it stopped doctors from speaking out.



China has officially reiterated that the media has taken Dao Fu's comments out of context, which Dao himself explained.  As to doctors speaking out being silenced, you will find that in Australia if you are an employee then you cannot make statements which affect the organisation which employs you.  To this day I remain bound by Section 70 of the Crimes Act in relation to aspects of my work.


SirRumpole said:


> You seem to be taking China's side on everything.



I take time to check things as a rule, and also look for other motivations when things don't appear to stack up.
​


----------



## Clansman (14 April 2021)

rederob said:


> I rely on evidence @SirRumpole and most newspapers reported (many by syndication) an inference, *not what was actually said*. Furthermore the inference was then embellished by most media sources.  Or, as in @sptrawler's post, they just made additional stupid comments: you could have added dozens of other countries that have closed their borders to control covid, while over 100 nations - including Australia - will not reach herd immunity until some time in 2022 when global vaccine production reaches excess capacity and Covax has done its job.
> Your source reminds of the evidence that led Australia to join the USA in a war against Iraq.  But read carefully and you will see that _*Al Jazeera*_ did *not *have "Chinese vaccines" in quotation marks because Dao Fu did not refer to them - I give them credit for that level of accuracy.
> 
> China has officially reiterated that the media has taken Dao Fu's comments out of context, which Dao himself explained.  As to doctors speaking out being silenced, you will find that in Australia if you are an employee then you cannot make statements which affect the organisation which employs you.  To this day I remain bound by Section 70 of the Crimes Act in relation to aspects of my work.
> ...




You lost everybody at "I rely on evidence" and then again at "China has officially reiterated".  The final nail was hammered in at "I take time to check things as a rule".
After the antics of yesterday, it would seem time for you to stock of a failing method.
It will take time for you to get over" China has a superior aircraft carrier fleet  to the USA" LOL.

"I remain bound by Section 70 of the Crimes Act in relation to aspects of my work" is another poor attempt at name dropping and will go nowhere when it is offset by constant fabrication.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 April 2021)

rederob said:


> China has officially reiterated that the media has taken Dao Fu's comments out of context, which Dao himself explained. As to doctors speaking out being silenced, you will find that in Australia if you are an employee then* you cannot make statements which affect the organisation which employs you.* To this day I remain bound by Section 70 of the Crimes Act in relation to aspects of my work.




Sure and that covers up a multitude of sins doesn't it ?

The time honoured way to media manage errors and hide the truth.

Whistle blowers who spill the beans and tell the truth should be protected, and contracts of employment should not be allowed to conceal mismanagement or downright negligence.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure and that covers up a multitude of sins doesn't it ?
> 
> The time honoured way to media manage errors and hide the truth.
> 
> Whistle blowers who spill the beans and tell the truth should be protected, and contracts of employment should not be allowed to conceal mismanagement or downright negligence.



I am sure this topic has been discussed many times in other threads.

As to Dao Fu's comments, it seems to make sense that mixing vaccines - some which have high efficacy against the original virus but don't do so well against more infectious variants - is a better alternative than relying on just one product type.  I thought that might be more newsworthy than an out of context beat up!


----------



## cri123 (14 April 2021)

Is every age need vaccination?? Or there is any limit on age.

Or anyone knows the listed Hospitals or Health clinics for vaccination, Plz let me know


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2021)

Anthony Fauci, sums it up pretty well, this is going to take a long time to sort out.








						Anthony Fauci’s words of COVID warning for Australia
					

America’s top COVID adviser praised Australia’s response to the pandemic but warned that no country was safe until the virus was globally under control.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
America’s top COVID adviser says Australia cannot rely on vaccines and border controls to protect its population, warning no country is safe while the virus is allowed to spread beyond its borders.
There would be no freedom from the virus for Australia or any country that had successfully suppressed it within its own communities until the overwhelming majority of the world’s population was vaccinated against COVID-19 and its spread was controlled globally, US President Joe Biden’s chief medical adviser said via video conference from his home office.
“As long as there’s the dynamic of virus replication somewhere, there will always be the threat of the emergence of variants which could then come back,” said the long-time director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the US National Institute of Health.

“Even though most of the rest of the world is vaccinated, it can threaten the [countries] that [have] felt that they’ve controlled the virus, when they’re still quite vulnerable.
“If you want to maintain control you want to have control throughout the entire world.”
Dr Fauci’s comments follow a refusal by Australian Health Minister Greg Hunt to guarantee Australia’s borders will be open even if the entire country has been vaccinated against COVID-19.
The public health adviser to every US president since Ronald Reagan praised Australia’s response to the pandemic as among the best in the world thanks largely to a national cohesion that was in stark contrast to the splintered and politicised US attempts to control and eliminate the virus’ spread.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2021)

So much for the abundance of caution Morrison's team promised as the rollout failed to materialise as planned.
Some nations have banned AZ, but it's OK because not many will die, trust our health officials!
I won't be in any line offering AZ when there are clearly safer options.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 April 2021)

rederob said:


> So much for the abundance of caution Morrison's team promised as the rollout failed to materialise as planned.
> Some nations have banned AZ, but it's OK because not many will die, trust our health officials!
> I won't be in any line offering AZ when there are clearly safer options.




So what if reactions to Pfizer come to light ?

If so, the whole thing is stuffed.


----------



## Humid (15 April 2021)

rederob said:


> So much for the abundance of caution Morrison's team promised as the rollout failed to materialise as planned.
> Some nations have banned AZ, but it's OK because not many will die, trust our health officials!
> I won't be in any line offering AZ when there are clearly safer options.



But the rusted on Libs here will put on a Scammo spin and tell you hes saved us


----------



## sptrawler (15 April 2021)

Humid said:


> But the rusted on Libs here will put on a Scammo spin and tell you hes saved us



Maaaaaate , you can always go down and ask for a shot, apparently there aren't many queues in W.A. 😂


----------



## Humid (15 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Maaaaaate , you can always go down and ask for a shot, apparently there aren't many queues in W.A. 😂



Where?


----------



## rederob (15 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So what if reactions to Pfizer come to light ?
> 
> If so, the whole thing is stuffed.



There are many alternatives, and dozens of other candidates are in phase 3 trials.
The other relative unknown is efficacy against variants.
It may be that one or two of the 4 types of vaccines have a lower efficacy than the best to date, but remain relatively unaffected by variants.


----------



## sptrawler (15 April 2021)

Humid said:


> Where?



What you actually want a shot? the 48 year old lady who developed blood clots, died today.
I was joking, maybe Scomo did save you, who knows?
But I'm sure if you want to spend the money and sign a waiver, you could get one.
maybe the media, who are complaining about the slow roll out, could volunteer to head the queue for the shots.lol


----------



## Humid (15 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What you actually want a shot? the 48 year old lady who developed blood clots, died today.
> I was joking, maybe Scomo did save you, who knows?
> But I'm sure if you want to spend the money and sign a waiver, you could get one.
> maybe the media, who are complaining about the slow roll out, could volunteer to head the queue for the shots.lol



No where can I get this done
You sound like scummo all anouncement 
NO substance


----------



## Humid (15 April 2021)

Humid said:


> No where can I get this done
> You sound like scummo all anouncement
> NO substance



Are you Scotty from Mandurah?


----------



## sptrawler (15 April 2021)

Humid said:


> Are you Scotty from Mandurah?





Humid said:


> No where can I get this done
> You sound like scummo all anouncement
> NO substance



Mate I know English must be your second language, but if you want to find out where you can get a vaccine, or if you qualify for a vaccine use this site.
You really should try and improve your computer literacy, if you want to improve your work prospects.
I'm really busy looking after a 5 year old and a 10 year old, during school holidays, haven't you got an English speaking relative that could help you with this stuff. 🤪 
https://www.healthywa.wa.gov.au/COVID19vaccine


----------



## Humid (15 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Mate I know English must be your second language, but if you want to find out where you can get a vaccine, or if you qualify for a vaccine use this site.
> You really should try and improve your computer literacy, if you want to improve your work prospects.
> I'm really busy looking after a 5 year old and a 10 year old, during school holidays, haven't you got an English speaking relative that could help you with this stuff. 🤪
> https://www.healthywa.wa.gov.au/COVID19vaccine



So you just made it up?
You fit well with a 5&10 year old


----------



## macca (16 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So what if reactions to Pfizer come to light ?
> 
> If so, the whole thing is stuffed.




Pfizer is an synthetic mRNA, no one knows what will happen long term.

Short term seems OK after One shot, some folk are having problems with the Second shot because their immune system is heightened by the first shot.

There is concern in some circles that all auto immune diseases (with MS being one) may be accelerated by the injection being called a "vaccine"

Vitamin D is still the safest and still a secret, people dying in their thousands and still no publicity about things that have been proven to work in labs and trials

Hopefully one day the truth will out


----------



## rederob (16 April 2021)

macca said:


> Vitamin D is still the safest and still a secret, people dying in their thousands and still no publicity about things that have been proven to work in labs and trials.



Yet England has one of the world's highest death rates despite its Health officials recommending its use.
Bottom line is that there is no secret because there is no definitive evidence it is a defence against covid.   It's certainly important for other reasons if you are deficient in vitamin D, so if that's you, dose up.

Meanwhile the Danes are falling over themselves to keep AZ out:


----------



## sptrawler (16 April 2021)

macca said:


> Pfizer is an synthetic mRNA, no one knows what will happen long term.
> 
> Short term seems OK after One shot, some folk are having problems with the Second shot because their immune system is heightened by the first shot.
> 
> ...



There was a mention today, that the Pfizer vaccine may require a second shot and a booster every year.
Which goes back to what we talked about at the beginning of the outbreak, that it is difficult to have vaccine for a virus and it may end up  a flu jab that is tweaked every year.


----------



## moXJO (17 April 2021)

Not sure I want to be jabbing myself with this crap every year.


----------



## macca (17 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There was a mention today, that the Pfizer vaccine may require a second shot and a booster every year.
> Which goes back to what we talked about at the beginning of the outbreak, that it is difficult to have vaccine for a virus and it may end up  a flu jab that is tweaked every year.




Given the flu jab often does a rather poor job (2017? was about 10% effective I read somewhere back then) with average Flu vax success below 50% according to some sources

The other problem is that no vaccine claims to stop the catching or transmission of Covid so even if we vaccinate we are still going to have Covid everywhere/anywhere at any time.

Some virologists claim that a vaccine that does not kill the bug should not be used as it will give Covid the opportunity and in fact encourage it to mutate in a similar fashion to the bugs that ABs no longer work on

It does not auger well for the world, eventually, this thing may well reverse the population trend of the planet.


----------



## rederob (17 April 2021)

macca said:


> Some virologists claim that a vaccine that does not kill the bug should not be used as it will give Covid the opportunity and in fact encourage it to mutate in a similar fashion to the bugs that ABs no longer work on
> 
> It does not auger well for the world, eventually, this thing may well reverse the population trend of the planet.



Covid vaccines prevent serious illness and hospitalisation, and apart from what we have found with AZ, seldom leads to death. 
Same with flu vaccines.
So if covid vaccines mean that a typical illness will be mild then their job is done. 
World economies can open up and it will be business as usual.
The concept of herd immunity is also real.  More people less susceptible leads to little or no spread.
I can't see any problem with booster shots unless you are an ardent anti-vaxxer.


----------



## moXJO (17 April 2021)

rederob said:


> Covid vaccines prevent serious illness and hospitalisation, and apart from what we have found with AZ, seldom leads to death.
> Same with flu vaccines.
> So if covid vaccines mean that a typical illness will be mild then their job is done.
> World economies can open up and it will be business as usual.
> ...



Suppose we don't have much in the way of data for annual shots using the Mrna vaccines?


----------



## rederob (17 April 2021)

moXJO said:


> Suppose we don't have much in the way of data for annual shots using the Mrna vaccines?



Not sure how that is relevant.
That's just one of the 4 separate types of vaccines available.
Dozens of candidates are in stage 3 trials, some already in emergency use in country of origin.
This time next year we could have as many as 40 vaccines available, although vaccines already scaled to high output might knock some candidates out of contention.
Also, there is a chance vaccine types could be mixed so that variants are less damaging.
As it is, too much attention is paid to *highest efficacy vaccines *as providing covid vaccines work like flu shots then health systems won't be overrun and death rates would be back to "normal".


----------



## moXJO (17 April 2021)

rederob said:


> Not sure how that is relevant.




Blood clots are pretty relevant, is there increasing risk if annual jobs were to become a thing.

Which vaccine are you most comfortable with.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 April 2021)

rederob said:


> I can't see any problem with booster shots unless you are an ardent anti-vaxxer.



That would depend on the detail.

If it leaves people feeling ill and lying down for a day as per some reports then I can certainly see a reluctance to have it on the part of many.


----------



## rederob (18 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That would depend on the detail.
> 
> If it leaves people feeling ill and lying down for a day as per some reports then I can certainly see a reluctance to have it on the part of many.



I get that after a visit to the dentist.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 April 2021)

rederob said:


> I get that after a visit to the dentist.




So do I, especially when I get the bill.


----------



## rederob (18 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So do I, especially when I get the bill.



@SirRumpole - we need to get together with others and invest in a vaccine against tooth decay!


----------



## SirRumpole (18 April 2021)

rederob said:


> @SirRumpole - we need to get together with others and invest in a vaccine against tooth decay!




I thought that was called flouride, but maybe we need more booster shots in the water !


----------



## pozindustrial (18 April 2021)

Some people might like to consider this option. It is my first-aid kit and I never travel without it. For a few hundred dollars it will last me a lifetime.

As an alternative to a vaccine I have been using a Bob Beck designed micropulser for a few years with complete success against viruses. It is a clever design to put a research discovery into practice which found that a microcurrent of electricity on HIV infected blood samples disabled the virus. It works for any infectious disease because the pathogens are all of the same type of cell which are completely different to human cells (I am not medically trained, just read a lot about it).

Here is how I use it:
When I feel I am getting a virus because of increasingly feeling unwell during a day, increasing sneezing and finally my muscles and joints all become sore for no other reason I say to myself  "I think I am coming down with something". When I am sure I put on the micropulser for two hours, I do not wait until the next day because the virus will have taken a good hold and my body will have accumulated mucus and other things that will take a few days to clear up. I know all this from experience and observation, after 60+yrs you know stuff. So after the two hours most symptoms disappear and the next day I feel perfect again. That is the danger unfortunately because if I do not repeat the process for two hours for the next three days the virus will take hold again. I have done this perhaps six times in the last four years or so with 100% success and then watched others around me come down with the same virus. For several years before I purchased a Sota micropulser (silver pulser) I was using a 'zapper' from NZ with mixed success mainly because I did not know about repeating the process for a few days because I felt completely well.

Bob Beck gave the plans away to everyone personally, at lectures and over the internet and many people manufacture them for sale. He never sold anything or took money for it, he just wanted the world to know that they could take back their power when it came to healing.

This is Sota Instruments who knew Bob Beck and he endorsed their products. They are good quality. https://www.sota.com/default.aspx?page=Silver-Pulser I have this one and their magnetic pulser and their Bio Tuner.

Here is another made locally in Tarneit Vic with no currency difference or expensive overseas freight. http://www.k2australia.com.au/gallery/ZAPPERS/bob-beck-zappercolloidal-silver-generator/517349 My son has this one and it looks fine to me, there is another one that does not make silver water too, but I think making it is well worth the small extra.

This is Bob's biography in a few pages, an easy read so you can see the calibre of his intellect. https://www.bobbeck.com/pdfs/bob-beck-biography.pdf He was no crank.

This is a guide to using Bob's protocol and includes how he came across the research of a couple of doctors who discovered a microcurrent disabled a virus. https://www.bobbeck.com/pdfs/guide-to-using-the-beck-protocol.pdf

Here is a list of testimonials https://www.bobbeck.com/Testimonial_search.aspx. You can either scroll through the pages or use the search menu on the left of the page to be more specific. Bob Beck's site is not selling anything so I believe these are genuine people sharing their experiences.

Vaccines have proven to have caused injuries and the Vaccine Court in USA has paid out *4 billion dollars* when the highest payment is only $250,000 and you have to jump through hoops of fire to prove you were injured by a vaccine. That is $4B of court-proven injuries, not a conspiracy theory so I prefer the micropulser!


----------



## rederob (18 April 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Some people might like to consider this option. It is my first-aid kit and I never travel without it. For a few hundred dollars it will last me a lifetime.
> 
> As an alternative to a vaccine I have been using a Bob Beck designed micropulser for a few years with complete success against viruses. It is a clever design to put a research discovery into practice which found that a microcurrent of electricity on HIV infected blood samples disabled the virus. It works for any infectious disease because the pathogens are all of the same type of cell which are completely different to human cells (I am not medically trained, just read a lot about it).
> 
> ...



I have some snake oil for sale.


----------



## pozindustrial (18 April 2021)

rederob said:


> I have some snake oil for sale.



I am sorry if I came across as selling something, this is purely personal experience information relevant to the topic. I guess it is like trying to say the market is close to a crash when in reality it is going gangbusters. Hard to believe.


----------



## rederob (18 April 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> I am sorry if I came across as selling something, this is purely personal experience information relevant to the topic. I guess it is like trying to say the market is close to a crash when in reality it is going gangbusters. Hard to believe.



Not at all.
Electroporation might be fine for killing viruses on the surface of materials, but applying the same procedure to humans will kill them.


----------



## pozindustrial (18 April 2021)

You could be correct, but this does not cause electroporation. I am not going to debate or defend this further, not what the forum is about. Just thought some people might find an alternative interesting and helpful. I deliberately put in various links so that people can follow them, read lots more about the origins of the research and development and eventually have all their questions answered if they wanted to know more. That would be better than a forum claim/counterclaim chain of posts.


----------



## rederob (18 April 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> You could be correct, but this does not cause electroporation. I am not going to debate or defend this further, not what the forum is about. Just thought some people might find an alternative interesting and helpful. I deliberately put in various links so that people can follow them, read lots more about the origins of the research and development and eventually have all their questions answered if they wanted to know more. That would be better than a forum claim/counterclaim chain of posts.



It's always handy attaching medical *evidence* to support your claims.
If you feel better using your device, then good for you.  It's likely a placebo effect.
But what you originally posted is *absolutely *baseless.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 April 2021)

rederob said:


> I get that after a visit to the dentist.



Because of the dental work itself or when you see how much it cost?


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 April 2021)

Something I'm really not understanding about this whole vaccine rollout but hopefully someone can explain.

We seem to be using two vaccines in Australia, one made by Pfizer and the other by Astra Zeneca.

The AZ vaccine reportedly has a 63% effectiveness: https://www.who.int/news-room/featu...zeneca-covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know

The Pfizer vaccine is reported to be 95% effective: https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison.

The AZ vaccine comes with a small but not zero chance of blood clots, the occurrence of which has resulted in actual deaths. The Pfizer vaccine does not come with this problem.

So if one is 63% effectiveness with a small but not zero chance of really bad side effects, and the other is 95% effective without that risk, then why on earth is anyone using the less effective and more dangerous one?

What am I missing here? Shouldn't all focus be on the one that's more effective and safer?


----------



## rederob (19 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Something I'm really not understanding about this whole vaccine rollout but hopefully someone can explain.
> 
> We seem to be using two vaccines in Australia, one made by Pfizer and the other by Astra Zeneca.
> 
> ...



We have no deal with Pfizer to manufacture their vaccine.
So without AZ availability via CSL we are a vaccine rollout backwater.


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Something I'm really not understanding about this whole vaccine rollout but hopefully someone can explain.
> 
> We seem to be using two vaccines in Australia, one made by Pfizer and the other by Astra Zeneca.
> 
> ...











						Getting 40 million Pfizer doses to Australia 'won't be easy', experts warn
					

Given the advice that under-50s in Australia now receive the Pfizer vaccine over AstraZeneca, supply of the European jab has become even more important. But can we flick the switch and access more?




					www.abc.net.au
				




Which has led to this.









						Australian government considering helping local manufacture of mRNA Covid vaccines
					

Health minister says there would be ‘a significant period of scaling up’ to produce vaccines such as Pfizer en masse




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## IFocus (19 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Something I'm really not understanding about this whole vaccine rollout but hopefully someone can explain.
> 
> We seem to be using two vaccines in Australia, one made by Pfizer and the other by Astra Zeneca.
> 
> ...





Nothing, at the start of the COVID vaccine development Australian experts were crying out for the Government to fund mRNA production here in Australia.

 The governments response was it would take a year to setup, this was Feb 2020. 

Instead they went all in with AZ. 

I imagine this was based on advice heaven forbid if it wasn't at that time there had been no successful mRNA vaccine produced..

Problem now is we are in a very long line looking for supply from Pfizer.

Down the road our bigger problem will be possibly getting caught out with a population not vaccinated and a nasty variant breaking out.

The government know there is a train coming at them as the delay in opening international boarder will have major ramifications politically hence the jumping in behind the states.


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2021)

IFocus said:


> Nothing, at the start of the COVID vaccine development *Australian experts were crying out for the Government to fund mRNA production here in Australia.
> 
> The governments response was it would take a year to setup, this was Feb 2020.*
> 
> ...



Also from my understanding the AZ vaccine can be made here.
Another point is, the Astra Zeneca vaccine has been used widely in the U.K, EU and U.S.A, hasn't it?
Maybe due to the low incidence of the virus in Australia, many are reluctant to get it, especially after the media reports.

Interesting that the Australian experts were calling for the MRNA vaccine in February 2020, when there wasn't an MRNA vaccine back then, most unusual for Australian experts to go out on a limb like that.
I thought the first Pfizer vaccine was developed, to a point where it could be presented to regulators in November 2020, which is only 5 months ago.








						Covid vaccine: First 'milestone' vaccine offers 90% protection
					

The vaccine is a "significant step" forward for getting life back to normal, but challenges remain.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2021)

Canada still going with the Astra Zeneca vaccine.








						Canada records second rare blood clot linked to AstraZeneca vaccine but says benefits outweigh risks
					

As the country deals with a surging third wave of infections and hospitals in the country's most populous area come under threat of being overwhelmed, Canadian authorities announce plans to broaden the cohort who can receive AstraZeneca's vaccine.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Canada has reported a second case of rare blood clots linked to the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine in a week, but health authorities continue to recommend the use of the shot.

Based on the evidence available, Canada still maintains that the benefits of the AstraZeneca vaccine outweigh the potential risks, the statement said.

Canada health authorities "will continue to monitor the use of all COVID-19 vaccines closely and examine and assess any new safety concerns," the statement said.
Despite the emergence of the second linked case of blood clotting, Ontario will begin offering the AstraZeneca vaccine from Tuesday (local time) to people turning 40 or older this year, according to a government source.


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2021)

It wasn't long ago Chile was at the front of the pack with the vaccine rollout.


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/04/16/chile-coronavirus-china-sinovac-vaccine/
		


Now they are back in lockdown

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56731801

It proves this is going to be a long road to recovery IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2021)

Denmark stops the roll out of the AstraZeneca vaccine, the EU considering the same, sounds as if the public losing confidence.








						AstraZeneca vaccine: Denmark stops rollout completely
					

It is the first European country to fully withdraw the jab over possible links to rare blood clots.



					www.bbc.com
				



From the article:
*Denmark has ceased giving the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine amid concerns about rare cases of blood clots, the first European country to do so fully.*
_The move is expected to delay the country's vaccination programme by several weeks.
Drug watchdog the European Medicines Agency last week announced a possible link with clots but said the risk of dying of Covid-19 was much greater.
Several European countries had previously briefly suspended the jab.
Most have now resumed vaccinations with AstraZeneca, but often with limits to older age groups.
On Tuesday, the US, Canada and the European Union paused the Johnson & Johnson vaccine for similar reasons over clotting_.


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2021)

And we have the nerve to complain.  We really are the lucky country IMO.








						'We're helpless': Fears for country ‘running out of oxygen’
					

Critical medical supplies including oxygen are in desperately low supply as the giant nation battles a chronic Covid crisis.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:
_As India's coronavirus situation threatens to spiral out of control, overrun hospitals are scrambling to come up with something we usually take for granted: oxygen.

The country of 1.3 billion people added a record-high of 261,500 new cases on Sunday (local time), with one in six people who underwent a test returning a positive coronavirus result, authorities said. 

In India’s capital New Delhi the situation appears twice as dire as it recorded 25,500 cases in a 24-hour period, with about one in three people returning a positive result.


Less than 100 critical care beds were available in the city of more than 20 million people, Chief Minister Arvind Kejriwal said, as social media was flooded with people complaining about lack of beds, oxygen and drug_s.


----------



## bellenuit (19 April 2021)

I expect what will happen here is that there will be a low turnout to be vaccinated using the AstraZeneca vaccine as people are too complacent due to our extremely low infection numbers and will prefer to wait. But with Covid-19 out of control in many countries now, one way or another we are going to get a large outbreak later in the year. Then there will be mass panic and people will be begging for whatever vaccine they can get.

That's why I am getting my first AZ vaccine this Saturday.


----------



## Humid (20 April 2021)

3 doses, then 1 each year: why Pfizer, not AstraZeneca, is the best bet for the long haul
					

Our best long-term strategy is to rely on the mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna.




					theconversation.com
				




Would you hold off for this?


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2021)

Humid said:


> 3 doses, then 1 each year: why Pfizer, not AstraZeneca, is the best bet for the long haul
> 
> 
> Our best long-term strategy is to rely on the mRNA vaccines like Pfizer and Moderna.
> ...



Phizer is looking like the safest long term bet, but long term means different things to a 30 year old , than a 75 year old.
The other aspect is, I would have thought just because someone has the AZ shot this year, which covers the current virus, shouldn't preclude the same person having the Phizer MRNA vaccine next year when it becomes more available.


----------



## bellenuit (20 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Phizer is looking like the safest long term bet, but long term means different things to a 30 year old , than a 75 year old.
> The other aspect is, I would have thought just because someone has the AZ shot this year, which covers the current virus, shouldn't preclude the same person having the Phizer MRNA vaccine next year when it becomes more available.



My thinking too. From what I know, one can change to Pfizer for future injections (booster, not the 2nd injection) and hopefully it will be readily available at year end.

But there is no point in dying waiting for it, when there is a readily available but maybe not as effective vaccine available.

One thing I am not sure of and perhaps someone can enlighten me. The vaccines can not only prevent catching COVID-19, but also reduce the symptoms enormously if one does catch COVID-19. For example, many do not even require hospitalisation. Although AZ does not work against catching some strains of the virus, in the event that one does catch those strains, will it have the same mitigating effect on the symptoms?


----------



## pozindustrial (20 April 2021)

I was surprised to find that 'effectiveness' was only a reduction of symptoms after you got the virus. This came out in Nov 2020
COVID-19 Vaccine Trials ‘Designed to Succeed’​In September 2020, Haseltine criticized COVID-19 vaccine trials, including Pfizer’s, saying their protocols reveal that they’re “designed to prove their vaccines work, even if the measured effects are minimal.”13

He points out that prevention of infection is a critical endpoint in a normal vaccine trial, but prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for COVID-19 vaccines in development by Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca or Johnson & Johnson. According to Haseltine:14



> _“Any vaccine trial should include regular antigen testing every three days to test contagiousness to pick up early signs of infection and PCR testing once a week to confirm infection by SARS-CoV-2 test the ability of the vaccines to stave off infection. Prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for any of these vaccines._





> _In fact, their endpoints all require confirmed infections and all those they will include in the analysis for success, the only difference being the severity of symptoms between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Measuring differences amongst only those infected by SARS-CoV-2 underscores the implicit conclusion that the vaccines are not expected to prevent infection, only modify symptoms of those infected.”_



He also explains that while most people expect that a vaccine will prevent serious illness in the event they’re infected, “Three of the vaccine protocols — Moderna, Pfizer, and AstraZeneca — do not require that their vaccine prevent serious disease only that they prevent moderate symptoms which may be as mild as cough, or headache.”15


----------



## rederob (20 April 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> I was surprised to find that 'effectiveness' was only a reduction of symptoms after you got the virus. This came out in Nov 2020
> COVID-19 Vaccine Trials ‘Designed to Succeed’​In September 2020, Haseltine criticized COVID-19 vaccine trials, including Pfizer’s, saying their protocols reveal that they’re “designed to prove their vaccines work, even if the measured effects are minimal.”13
> 
> He points out that prevention of infection is a critical endpoint in a normal vaccine trial, but prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for COVID-19 vaccines in development by Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca or Johnson & Johnson. According to Haseltine:14
> ...



I explained some aspects of this earlier.
*Efficacy *is the scientific outcome from randomised control trials, almost always involving healthy people.
*Effectiveness *is the observational outcome from large group studies, ie. young, old, infirm etc..
A vaccine with very high efficacy may have a very undesirable side effect, eg AZ's blood clots, while lesser effective vaccines may have no cases of hospitalisation at all.
I would rather the latter.


----------



## IFocus (20 April 2021)

bellenuit said:


> My thinking too. From what I know, one can change to Pfizer for future injections (booster, not the 2nd injection) and hopefully it will be readily available at year end.
> 
> But there is no point in dying waiting for it, when there is a readily available but maybe not as effective vaccine available.
> 
> One thing I am not sure of and perhaps someone can enlighten me. The vaccines can not only prevent catching COVID-19, but also reduce the symptoms enormously if one does catch COVID-19. For example, many do not even require hospitalisation. Although AZ does not work against catching some strains of the virus, in the event that one does catch those strains, will it have the same mitigating effect on the symptoms?




Been wondering the same

"It is important to note that there were still no cases of hospitalization for severe Covid-19 or deaths observed in the study. Yet the authors did caution that the relatively young median age of participants (30 years) likely influenced the lack of severe Covid-19 cases."









						AstraZeneca Vaccine Fails To Protect Against The South African Variant, Says Study
					

Two doses of the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine were found to have only a 10.4% efficacy against mild-to-moderate infections caused by the B.1.351 South Africa variant, according to a phase 1b-2 clinical trial published on Tuesday in the New England Journal of Medicine.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Clansman (20 April 2021)

bellenuit said:


> My thinking too. From what I know, one can change to Pfizer for future injections (booster, not the 2nd injection) and hopefully it will be readily available at year end.
> 
> But there is no point in dying waiting for it, when there is a readily available but maybe not as effective vaccine available.
> 
> One thing I am not sure of and perhaps someone can enlighten me. The vaccines can not only prevent catching COVID-19, but also reduce the symptoms enormously if one does catch COVID-19. For example, many do not even require hospitalisation. Although AZ does not work against catching some strains of the virus, in the event that one does catch those strains, will it have the same mitigating effect on the symptoms?




When you get the vaccine, then you should go to India to test its efficacy.  That would seem like a decent road test for both whether it works and whether it reduces the symptoms.  I will be happy to pay for your ticket if you take my mother in law with you and do same.


----------



## IFocus (20 April 2021)

Issues with COVID if you get it

"
The team, comprising researchers from NTU, Agency for Science, Technology and Research's (A*STAR) Singapore Immunology Network (SIgN), and the National Centre of Infectious Diseases, Singapore (NCID), collected and analysed blood samples from 30 COVID-19 patients a month after they had recovered from the infection and were discharged from hospital. They found that all recovered COVID-19 patients had signs of blood vessel damage, possibly from a lingering immune response, which may trigger the formation of blood clots.

Their findings were published on 23 March in the peer-reviewed scientific journal _eLife_."









						NTU Singapore study investigates link between  COVID-19 and risk of blood clot formation
					

People who have recovered from COVID-19, especially those with pre-existing cardiovascular conditions, may be at risk of developing blood clots due to a lingering and overactive immune response, according to a study led by Nanyang Technological University, Singapore (NTU) scientists.



					www.eurekalert.org


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2021)

Personally living in W.A, I have decided to put travel plans on hold until 2023, so if possible I will hold off having the vaccine until it is time to travel.
Of course this could change if the incidence of cases in W.A increases and or the vaccine becomes compulsory.
I'm not anti vax, far from it, just a personal choice on this vaccine, if I lived on the East Coast my decision could be different.


----------



## pozindustrial (20 April 2021)

I believe being informed is as important for investing as it is for health decisions. Just as traders rely on information from graphs and investing resources before making decisions, people rely on public health information before they take a medical-related course of action. I do not like the fact that our media hardly ever give us available facts about vaccines. Anyone can look up VAERS information, but most people do not know it exists. Here is some info from it.

Data released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) on the number of injuries and deaths reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) following COVID vaccines revealed reports of blood clots and other related blood disorders associated with all three vaccines approved for Emergency Use Authorization in the U.S. — Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson (J&J). So far, only the J&J vaccine has been paused because of blood clot concerns.

VAERS is the primary mechanism for reporting adverse vaccine reactions in the U.S. Reports submitted to VAERS require further investigation before a causal relationship can be confirmed.

Every Friday, VAERS makes public all vaccine injury reports received through a specified date, usually about a week prior to the release date. Today’s data show that between Dec. 14, 2020 and April 8, a total of 68,347 total adverse events were reported to VAERS, including 2,602 deaths — an increase of 260 over the previous week — and 8,285 serious injuries, up 314 since last week.

Of the 2,602 deaths reported as of April 8, 27% occurred within 48 hours of vaccination, 19% occurred within 24 hours and 41% occurred in people who became ill within 48 hours of being vaccinated.

In the U.S., 174.9 million COVID vaccine doses had been administered as of April 8. This includes 79.6 million doses of Moderna’s vaccine, 90.3 million doses of Pfizer and 4.9 million doses of the J&J COVID vaccine.

This week’s VAERS data show:

19% of deaths were related to cardiac disorders.

55% of those who died were male, 43% were female and the remaining death reports did not include gender of the deceased.

The average age of those who died was 77 and the youngest death was an 18-year-old. There are a few reported deaths in children under 18, but these reports contained errors.

As of April 8, 408 pregnant women had reported adverse events related to COVID vaccines, including 114 reports of miscarriage or premature birth.

Of the 678 cases of Bell’s Palsy reported, 59% of cases were reported after Pfizer-BioNTech vaccinations, 38% following vaccination with the Moderna vaccine and 24 cases (4%) of Bell’s Palsy were reported with J&J.

There were 77 reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome with 55% of cases attributed to Pfizer, 40% to Moderna and 10% to J&J.

Just like the Tesla crash that killed two people yesterday these adverse reactions are 'very rare' and worth the risk because of the greater risk of the disease (or error-prone human-controlled vehicles) unless it happens to you!


----------



## rederob (20 April 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> I believe being informed is as important for investing as it is for health decisions. Just as traders rely on information from graphs and investing resources before making decisions, people rely on public health information before they take a medical-related course of action. I do not like the fact that our media hardly ever give us available facts about vaccines. Anyone can look up VAERS information, but most people do not know it exists. Here is some info from it.
> 
> Data released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) on the number of injuries and deaths reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) following COVID vaccines revealed reports of blood clots and other related blood disorders associated with all three vaccines approved for Emergency Use Authorization in the U.S. — Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson (J&J). So far, only the J&J vaccine has been paused because of blood clot concerns.
> 
> ...



The data shows the difference between *efficacy *- based on young,  healthy people in the main - and *observational effectiveness*.
Nobody seems in a hurry to pinpoint causal relationships.
Clots!


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Personally living in W.A, I have decided to put travel plans on hold until 2023, so if possible I will hold off having the vaccine until it is time to travel.
> Of course this could change if the incidence of cases in W.A increases and or the vaccine becomes compulsory.
> I'm not anti vax, far from it, just a personal choice on this vaccine, if I lived on the East Coast my decision could be different.



And to prove my point, this pops up on the ABC website.








						Just 100 of Australia's 6,000 residential disability centres have administered COVID vaccines, government told — as it happened
					

Despite being in the first phase of the nation's coronavirus vaccination rollout, an expert says there has only been a "trickle" of vaccines to residents of disability centres.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## pozindustrial (20 April 2021)

"..says Australia's vaccines are "100 per cent prevention against serious illness, hospitalisation and loss of life"." Complete BS. This is the problem we face.


----------



## IFocus (21 April 2021)

Actually a bit shocked that only 7%  have been vaccinated.


"Fewer than 7% of disability care residents have so far received a dose of Covid vaccine, leaving 25,000 residents unvaccinated despite being in the top priority group."










						Fewer than 7% of disability care residents in Australia have received Covid jab
					

Health department also reveals a reduction in the number of young people wanting to take the vaccine




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Humid (21 April 2021)

IFocus said:


> Actually a bit shocked that only 7%  have been vaccinated.
> 
> 
> "Fewer than 7% of disability care residents have so far received a dose of Covid vaccine, leaving 25,000 residents unvaccinated despite being in the top priority group."
> ...



They said would be all done by easter


----------



## grah33 (9 May 2021)

https://banned.video/watch?id=609238dcf609210fc6b0c516
		

Independent Scientist Attacked For Speaking Truth To COVID​(yet to watch this myself)


----------



## rederob (12 May 2021)

grah33 said:


> https://banned.video/watch?id=609238dcf609210fc6b0c516
> 
> 
> Independent Scientist Attacked For Speaking Truth To COVID​(yet to watch this myself)



Nutjobs are everywhere!

Here's how well Australia is tracking:





Pathetic!


----------



## rederob (13 May 2021)

Maybe there is a good case for looking at the Middle East for our next "travel bubble"?


----------



## Belli (16 May 2021)

I had the first shot of the AstraZeneca last Friday week.  Sore arm at the injection site for a couple of days but apart from that no other issue. Next shot in three months time.  I'm taking low dose (100mg) Asprin following surgery a while ago so that will mitigate potential blood clot issues.


----------



## rederob (16 May 2021)

The below chart differs from post #308 in that it is a "rollout" statistic so shows the pace of vaccinations on a 7-day average basis.
So let's see how we are comparing with some other nations on rollout:




Hardly a picture of success, but at least there is progress.  Just over 3 million doses administered in total so far, so unless things improve we are looking at late 2022 before herd immunity is achieved.


----------



## rederob (16 May 2021)

Belli said:


> I had the first shot of the AstraZeneca last Friday week.  Sore arm at the injection site for a couple of days but apart from that no other issue. Next shot in three months time.  I'm taking low dose (100mg) Asprin following surgery a while ago so that will mitigate potential blood clot issues.



Not meaning to rain on your parade @Belli since you were already taking medication, but this is what is on the government website:


----------



## Belli (16 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Not meaning to rain on your parade @Belli since you were already taking medication, but this is what is on the government website:





Thank you for the info @rederob.

I should have clarified my GP did mention that and also had a chat with the specialist (Vascular surgeon) about it.

Actually, I'm not the slightest bit concerned.  I have a greater likelihood of injury or death driving from here (Canberra) to Eden and back than I have of getting a blood clot from the vaccine.  Come to think of it I probably had a higher chance of death or becoming a quadriplegic as a result of the surgery or the general anesthetic when I underwent those procedures and did so without much worry despite being aware of the risks.  The couple of nights afterwards in ICU was not on my agenda however,


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2021)

It will be interesting to see if the U.K's very successful vaccination programme, is effective against the Indian strain. Who knows, maybe Morrison has called it right again, time will tell.









						UK Covid Live: 20,000 arrivals allowed from India despite warnings about new variant
					

At least 20,000 passengers travelling from India were allowed to enter Britain despite warnings about a new strain that had emerged there.  The rise of the new variant has caused tensions in Whitehall about whether the prime minister hesitated to put India on the red list because of plans to...




					au.news.yahoo.com
				












						Coronavirus fight takes worrying turn in UK
					

As the UK opens up and puts the worst of the pandemic behind it, a disturbing trend has dampened the optimistic mood.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:
As Britain opens up and puts the worst of the pandemic behind it, a disturbing trend has dampened the optimistic mood.

Cases of the Indian coronavirus variant have risen by 152 per cent in the UK in the space of a week.

New figures from Public Health England (PHE) revealed on Wednesday (local time) there were 1,313 confirmed cases involving the B.1.617.2 variant, which was first identified in India, and labelled as a variant of global concern this week by the World Health Organisation.

That's up 793 from 520 last week – demonstrating why some scientists and ministers in the UK are increasingly concerned about its spread within their own borders.


----------



## IFocus (17 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Who knows, maybe Morrison has called it right again, time will tell.




What! After Morison told all and sundry how good our quarantine system is  (ad nauseam) along with Hunt after state premiers saying hotels are not fit for purpose.

After Morrison calling for states to drop the lock downs and border closures.

Morrison then stops inbound from India... why? Because of our useless quarantine system due to fears of an out break.

Good example of how good the states quarantine systems are,  two states only use P2 masks in quarantine  the rest surgical masks WTF.

Morrison = BS.




)


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2021)

IFocus said:


> What! After Morison told all and sundry how good our quarantine system is  (ad nauseam) along with Hunt after state premiers saying hotels are not fit for purpose.
> 
> After Morrison calling for states to drop the lock downs and border closures.
> 
> ...



I was talking about the stop on Indian repatriations, most  countries are getting worried about it and I think most Australians will be pleased with the freeze.
The other Morrison call I was referring to, was in relation to the earlier post where there seems to be consensus now, that early intervention and investigations are required once an outbreak is detected.
The rest of the quarantine issues is just home and away soapy stuff, that most people don't give a ratz about IMO.
Time will tell. 
I do see that Albo is getting out and about, which is good news, getting his message across as early as possible is imperative IMO.


----------



## Belli (18 May 2021)

With the apparent brouhaha surrounding the repatriation of Australian residents from India - or elsewhere -  I just wonder about the logistics on it.  Assuming there is a large number from India alone, I wonder, if they were able to get back, where would you put a large number for quarantine, is there sufficient resources to manage it including health checks and the like?  That's apart from scheduling any repatriation flights.

I understand some health professionals have a view the exposure to the B.1.617 variant is inevitable and we should accept it is going to happen anyway. However, that is professional opinion and others have a different views.  In any event, they aren't the ones who have to actually make the decisions.  It is not a responsibility I would like to have to be honest.


----------



## IFocus (18 May 2021)

Belli said:


> With the apparent brouhaha surrounding the repatriation of Australian residents from India - or elsewhere -  I just wonder about the logistics on it.  Assuming there is a large number from India alone, I wonder, if they were able to get back, where would you put a large number for quarantine, is there sufficient resources to manage it including health checks and the like?  That's apart from scheduling any repatriation flights.
> 
> I understand some health professionals have a view the exposure to the B.1.617 variant is inevitable and we should accept it is going to happen anyway. However, that is professional opinion and others have a different views.  In any event, they aren't the ones who have to actually make the decisions.  It is not a responsibility I would like to have to be honest.




Even if we had proper quarantine hubs like Howard Springs out of 9000 I would imagine 10% or more maybe infectious which realistically our medical services wouldn't be able to cope with.

I suspect shutting down flights from India was more politics than anything else (given shutting state borders is very popular) the excuses came later when it back fired.

Having said that McGowan was calling for fights to stop after the last WA outbreak.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2021)

Belli said:


> With the apparent brouhaha surrounding the repatriation of Australian residents from India - or elsewhere -  I just wonder about the logistics on it.  Assuming there is a large number from India alone, I wonder, if they were able to get back, where would you put a large number for quarantine, is there sufficient resources to manage it including health checks and the like?  That's apart from scheduling any repatriation flights.
> 
> I understand some health professionals have a view the exposure to the B.1.617 variant is inevitable and we should accept it is going to happen anyway. However, that is professional opinion and others have a different views.  In any event, they aren't the ones who have to actually make the decisions.  It is not a responsibility I would like to have to be honest.



Well one just has to listen to todays response to the Virgin CEO, who said the borders should be opened even it it causes a few deaths.
It is o.k saying don't stop the flights, but if an outbreak does happen here and it gets out of control like Europe, the U.S, U.K and India, there is only one person who will be blamed.
As Ifocus said McGowan was quick to lock down the State and called for a reduction in repatriation flights, well he got a resounding round of applause from the W.A public.


----------



## grah33 (18 May 2021)

grah33 said:


> https://banned.video/watch?id=609238dcf609210fc6b0c516
> 
> 
> Independent Scientist Attacked For Speaking Truth To COVID​(yet to watch this myself)



this is the 2011 Phizer CEO  (or similar ) speaking.


from today's news looks like the narrative  is changing.  airports will be shut until 80% population vaccinated...  and what do we do with the other 15%  ??  

not looking good


----------



## rederob (19 May 2021)

grah33 said:


> this is the 2011 Phizer CEO  (or similar ) speaking.
> 
> 
> from today's news looks like the narrative  is changing.  airports will be shut until 80% population vaccinated...  and what do we do with the other 15%  ??
> ...



Why are you repeating a link which is bollocks?
And I have no idea what your point is about airports because it makes no sense.

Some basic facts:

vaccinations don't stop people getting infected by covid
vaccinated people who get symptoms are, on average, likely to be less infectious (less viral load) 
vaccinated people are very unlikely to require hospitalisation
Vaccinated travellers are extremely unlikely to impact on medical care facilities
A system of vaccine passports combined with rapid antigen testing immediately prior to boarding (and then PCR testing if RAT test was positive), combined with wearing masks would probably make travelling safer than being in a hotel quarantine facility for 14 days.


----------



## rederob (19 May 2021)

A quick snapshot of total vaccinations in selected countries shows that very few actually increase their daily rate:


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Some basic facts:
> 
> vaccinations don't stop people getting infected by covid
> vaccinated people who get symptoms are, on average, likely to be less infectious (less viral load)
> ...



It leaves me bemused why they actually call it a vaccine, it appears from what I read, that the AstraZeneca shot is designed to reduce the complications caused by the virus.


----------



## pozindustrial (19 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It leaves me bemused why they actually call it a vaccine, it appears from what I read, that the AstraZeneca shot is designed to reduce the complications caused by the virus.



Correct, they are gene therapy, not a vaccine, they do not stop you getting the virus, only reduce symptoms in most people, do not stop you transmitting it,  do not stop people dying from the virus but you can die from the jab, which is not what we are told by TV presenters. How can you be able to travel if vaccinated when you can still get it and infect everyone else on the plane?  People are being conned.


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Correct, they are gene therapy, not a vaccine, they do not stop you getting the virus, only reduce symptoms in most people, do not stop you transmitting it,  do not stop people dying from the virus but you can die from the jab, which is not what we are told by TV presenters. How can you be able to travel if vaccinated when you can still get it and infect everyone else on the plane?  People are being conned.



I think they are doing what they can with the available medication, probably why the Government isn't rushing to open the borders, but in turn that causes people not to rush and get a jab.
The only one that seems to give a vaccine style response appears to be the Pfizer mRNA shot, which currently has supply issues, I know the wife and I are hoping that it will become available to all.
But the longer the virus is kept in check, the more information is gained as to the effectiveness of all the so called vaccines, especially from places like the U.K, where accurate information will be correlated one would think.


----------



## Knobby22 (19 May 2021)

I got my first shot of AstraZeneca vaccine mid last week.

When I went to the bulk injection place in the Old Exhibition Building it was mainly filled with wealthy looking educated people wearing suits/fashion who like me left work for an hour and walked up there.
They mostly appeared to be mainly professional class.  Didn't see any tradie or retail types. Average age was closer to 50 than 65 though there was one elderly couple.

The woman I was following in line was a dead ringer of a 50 year old version of Sigourney Weaver! Hot as!

(Side effects were a bit of a headache and a bit tired the next day, I could feel my glands were a bit swollen and a desire to see a Sigourney Weaver movie)
Bring on opening up the economy!


----------



## rederob (19 May 2021)

@pozindustrial said "Correct, they are gene therapy, not a vaccine, they do not stop you getting the virus, only reduce symptoms in most people, ...."
They *are in FACT vaccines *that stimulate an antibody response.  Gene therapy has a completely different purpose.
Most vaccinated people will *not *experience any covid symptoms as the antibody response will be effective.
It is possible for vaccinated people to be asymptomatic carriers.  Indeed, this would be the biggest problem with a vaccine passport unless it was also accompanied by RAT or supplementary PCTR testing.
Your chances of dying from from a jab is less than 2 in a million.


sptrawler said:


> But the longer the virus is kept in check, the more information is gained as to the effectiveness of all the so called vaccines, especially from places like the U.K, where accurate information will be correlated one would think.



Only partly true as variants will become the norm, and over time the rates of effectiveness of every vaccine is likely to change, and they are more likely to be less efficacious.


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2021)

rederob said:


> They *are in FACT vaccines *that stimulate an antibody response.  Gene therapy has a completely different purpose.
> Most vaccinated people will *not *experience any covid symptoms as the antibody response will be effective.
> It is possible for vaccinated people to be asymptomatic carriers.  Indeed, this would be the biggest problem with a vaccine passport unless it was also accompanied by RAT or supplementary PCTR testing.
> Your chances of dying from from a jab is less than 2 in a million.
> ...



There you go, I thought the mRNA vaccines caused the body to build an immune system response, as it recognises the spike protein of any coronavirus.
Whereas the AstraZeneca was a form of flu jab specific to the Covid 19 strain, where a dose of 'dead' virus was injected so the body could recognise it and develop an antibody to fight it, but was specific to Covid-19 as that is the cell structure the body recognises.
Whether that same shot gives you protection from variants, is probably the question.

But I will defer to you Rob, as i know it is pointless saying any more. 









						How COVID-19 vaccines work
					

Find out how the COVID-19 vaccines work, how they are approved, how we decide how to use them, and where to go for credible information.




					www.health.gov.au
				



From the article:
Messenger RNA (mRNA)​mRNA vaccines use a genetic code called RNA to spark the production of the coronavirus’ specific spike protein. Once the mRNA enters the body’s cells, the cells use the instructions contained in the RNA to make the spike protein. Immune cells then recognise the spike protein as foreign and begin building an immune response against it. The RNA from the vaccine does not change or interact with our DNA in any way. 

Protein​Protein based vaccines use a non-infectious component of the coronavirus, usually the spike protein. This protein is found on the surface of the virus and is manufactured in a laboratory. When the vaccine enters the body, immune cells recognise the spike protein as foreign. Immune cells then recognise the spike protein as foreign and begin building an immune response against it.


----------



## pozindustrial (19 May 2021)

This scientist says that permanent DNA alteration which will be passed through future generations is entirely possible despite what the vaccine companies say. And if in a few months or years there are adverse effects (which could include death), this will be passed on too. It would be irreversible. Food for thought before you get the jab.









						Why I Won't Take the Johnson & Johnson Vaccine — a Scientist’s Perspective
					

Ken Biegeleisen, M.D., Ph.D., explains why he believes Johnson & Johnson cannot guarantee its COVID vaccine won’t alter your genetic code.




					childrenshealthdefense.org


----------



## pozindustrial (19 May 2021)

As of April 17 the reported (only a small percentage are reported) vaccine injuries were 330,218. Deaths from vaccines were 7,766. This is totally unacceptable, but why are we told it is OK? Would you like to be one of the permanently injured?









						EU Vaccine Injury Reporting System Shows More Than 330,000 Adverse Events Following COVID Vaccines
					

Health Impact News compiled the latest data on reports of COVID vaccine injuries and deaths in EU countries following vaccination with all four COVID vaccines approved in the EU for emergency use.




					childrenshealthdefense.org


----------



## rederob (19 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There you go, I thought the mRNA vaccines caused the body to build an immune system response, as it recognises the spike protein of any coronavirus.
> Whereas the AstraZeneca was a form of flu jab specific to the Covid 19 strain, where a dose of 'dead' virus was injected so the body could recognise it and develop an antibody to fight it, but was specific to Covid-19 as that is the cell structure the body recognises.
> Whether that same shot gives you protection from variants, is probably the question.
> 
> ...



We are talking about the same thing.
The *immune response* is principally an *antibody *response, although memory T cells not only support antibody production, they also can kill virus infected cells.
As genes are not altered by mRNA vaccines it cannot be regarded as "gene therapy".


----------



## Craton (19 May 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> *I got my first shot of AstraZeneca vaccine mid last week.*
> 
> When I went to the bulk injection place in the Old Exhibition Building it was mainly filled with wealthy looking educated people wearing suits/fashion who like me left work for an hour and walked up there.
> They mostly appeared to be mainly professional class.  Didn't see any tradie or retail types. Average age was closer to 50 than 65 though there was one elderly couple.
> ...



Yeah, already had my yearly flu jab so I've bit, or rather biting the bullet, get my AstraZenca shot on the 26th, next Wed.
Oh, and I'm all up for a Sigourney Weaver sci-fi heroine action flick too.


----------



## pozindustrial (19 May 2021)

Vaers is the USA reporting service for Covid vaccine injuries, the above post was for Europe. At April 1 the deaths from Covid vaccines was 2,342 and the injuries were 56,869.









						Latest VAERS Data Show Vaccine Injury Trends Continue, CDC Fails to Respond to The Defender’s Inquiries
					

VAERS data released today showed 56,869 reports of adverse events following COVID vaccines, including 2,342 deaths and 7,971 serious injuries between Dec. 14, 2020 and April 1, 2021.




					childrenshealthdefense.org
				




Most people in Australia are not told this information so they are led blindly to believe that the vaccines are safe and effective. They are neither. As an investor in stocks you like to have all the information and make decisions, you don't follow suggestions by news reporters, so why are you following TV presenters now? It is because you have found ways to discover other information about stocks, but not about vaccines.

This is the tip of the iceberg. Other questions are why effective drugs against Covid both for prevention and fast recovery like ivermectin, hydroxychloriquine and zinc which have been proven in many tests by doctors and hospitals have been banned when the drugs are safe, very effective, low cost and freely available? Why have governments denied access to these which would reduce deaths to near zero, protect frontline workers and dramatically reduce hospital stays?


----------



## basilio (19 May 2021)

Children's Health Defense.  The centre of anti vaccination in the US.​ 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Conspiracy theories (list)

Classifications

Traditional medicine

Diagnoses

*Children's Health Defense* is an American activist group mainly known for anti-vaccine activities. Much of the material put forth by the organization involves misinformation on vaccines.[1] It was founded and is chaired by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.[2] Established under the name World Mercury Project in 2016, it has been campaigning against various public health programs, such as vaccination and fluoridation of drinking water.[3] The group has been contributing to vaccine hesitancy in the United States, encouraging citizens and legislators to support anti-vaccine regulations and legislation.[4][5][6] Arguments against vaccination are contradicted by overwhelming scientific consensus about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines.[7][8][9][10] The group is a registered 501c3 nonprofit.[11]





__





						Children's Health Defense - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## basilio (19 May 2021)

As usual the anti vaccine agents  peddle misinformation.  









						CoronaCheck: No, vaccines have not been more dangerous in Israel than COVID-19
					

As more and more people continue to be vaccinated around the world, more misinformation continues to spread about vaccine safety.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## pozindustrial (19 May 2021)

basilio said:


> As usual the anti vaccine agents  peddle misinformation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People are free to believe whatever they wish.


----------



## rederob (20 May 2021)

basilio said:


> As usual the anti vaccine agents  peddle misinformation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@pozindustrial has a track record for peddling dubious claims. 
All emergency use vaccines have proved themselves effective, and are safe except to a fraction over one in  million.  With over a billion doses administered globally the evidence is somewhat overwhelming.
Those drugs *proven* *effective *are in use and his claims to the contrary just show how far the loonies go to peddle their nonsense. Meanwhile, treatments that have not shown promise, or have severe side effects, are still available but unlikely to be put to use for covid sufferers, especially where national health authorities advise against it. 
Finally, it's not a question of people believing what they want, it's about how ignorance of data shows many are worshipping false gods.


----------



## pozindustrial (20 May 2021)

basilio said:


> As usual the anti vaccine agents  peddle misinformation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The problem is that sites bringing us a range of information counter to govt info are systematically being censored and labeled‘misinformation’  while those critical sites do not offer counter arguments other than labeling them in a derogatory manner.
Drug cartels have far reaching tentacles, they use marketing and lobbyists at the highest levels to suppress information.
Reminds me of the expert scientific evidence given in courts claiming no adverse health affects from smoking. Also DDT, asbestos etc. All contrary to popular opinion until they were found out.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> The problem is that sites bringing us a range of information counter to govt info are systematically being censored and labeled‘misinformation’  while those critical sites do not offer counter arguments other than labeling them in a derogatory manner.
> Drug cartels have far reaching tentacles, they use marketing and lobbyists at the highest levels to suppress information.
> Reminds me of the expert scientific evidence given in courts claiming no adverse health affects from smoking. Also DDT, asbestos etc. All contrary to popular opinion until they were found out.



Both sides of the equation distribute information that suits them, usually with the passing of time the truth eventually appears, especially these days with the easy access to information and the ease of which that information can be shared.
I tend to think, because of the speed of which the 'vaccines' have been developed, all the data pertaining to the side effects will still be in the process of being gathered.
So at the moment I'm reluctant to have the jab, as time goes by a point will be reached where we all have to have the jab, until then i'll wing it.
Just my personal opinion.


----------



## rederob (20 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Both sides of the equation distribute information that suits them, usually with the passing of time the truth eventually appears, especially these days with the easy access to information and the ease of which that information can be shared.
> I tend to think, because of the speed of which the 'vaccines' have been developed, all the data pertaining to the side effects will still be in the process of being gathered.
> So at the moment I'm reluctant to have the jab, as time goes by a point will be reached where we all have to have the jab, until then i'll wing it.
> Just my personal opinion.



Governments use medical science to guide them, independent from other interests.
I personally think they have leaned too heavily on the medicos and could have done better with mitigation strategies, but overall a good outcome so far.
@pozindustrial could read from *The Lancet* or the *New England Journal of Medicine* for the best available information, but has not done that!   His points about smoking, asbestos and DDT were also incorrect as vested interests had *bought *lobbyists and scientists to dispute what was proven.  It's the climate change argument all over as some of the same actors are involved to this day!
With regard to side effects, we have some good evidence already, and that's why AZ has copped a caning as deadly side effects are not yet obvious from other vaccines.   Given the option I would personally prefer to take an inactivated vaccine "type" as they have been around for a long time and have low rates of very serious side effects.  
I am also in no hurry to be vaccinated as my overseas travel plans are over a year away and the longer I can safely put it off, the better.


----------



## Craton (20 May 2021)

FWIW.
As an aside. Oddly, when I had my yearly flu jab that night I ended up with a headache and a few days later my partner had the same after her yearly flu jab. Thinking back, I seem to remember having the same reaction last year. Anyways, I digress...

CV19
I have two close medical professional friends working at the local Base Hospital, both had the AZ vaccine as soon as it become available locally.
One is female and has had her immune system compromised due to chemo a couple of years ago and she is in her early fifties. She was very worried about the AZ as the chemo has affected her adversely, for example, she has a weak heart (dilated cardiomyopathy), is now lactose intolerant and is very susceptible to picking up a bugs like flu/cold and tummy bugs.

The other mate, a male, suffers from diabetes, will be 70 this year and is working 3 weeks on, 3 weeks off until his long service leave is used up and then will retire, again. Lucky bugger, lol! Although he did retire when he turned 65,  that only lasted six months before being accepted back into his old role.

Within 24 hours of the jab, both reported fever like chills and flu like symptoms which lasted about a day or so. Of course this is understandable as the body builds up the defense against Covid.

My mate was back at work within two days however, my female friend due to her heart issue (dizzy and fainting spells) ended up in ICU on the third night after the AZ jab. She was closely monitored and given treatment as necessary, O2 etc. She recovered and was back home after 48 hrs and back at work after a week.

So yes, she was obviously high risk but both have survived the initial first dose. Has their experience influenced my decision?
Not in any way. I was in the wait and see group  but as a pro-vaxxer,  I've done a complete 180 and said to hell with it, just get it over and done with.
If I don't make it that means my number's up. Plus side, I already have my affairs in order. I'll try to post up what, if any reaction I have to the AZ vaccine later next week.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2021)

Craton said:


> FWIW.
> As an aside. Oddly, when I had my yearly flu jab that night I ended up with a headache and a few days later my partner had the same after her yearly flu jab. Thinking back, I seem to remember having the same reaction last year. Anyways, I digress...
> 
> CV19
> ...



Great post Craton, real life examples are far better than copy and paste, or off the cuff remarks.
I also am no anti vaxxer, my mum who is 90 has had both jabs, without any issue, and the kids were all vaccinated in their childhood.
You just have to read my  post script below, to see where I'm coming from, allow for the worst, hope for the best, so I'll sit on my hands until I have to have it.
I'm not worried about the clotting, adverse reaction etc, I just think I'm not going anywhere and there is no rampant outbreak.
So why have the shot when they are no doubt monitoring it and tweaking it, like I said I will no doubt have to have it at some time, but it is like buying the first car in a production run, the recalls and improvements over the life of the model run are amazing.


----------



## Knobby22 (20 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Great post Craton, real life examples are far better than copy and paste, or off the cuff remarks.
> I also am no anti vaxxer, my mum who is 90 has had both jabs, without any issue, and the kids were all vaccinated in their childhood.
> You just have to read my  post script below, to see where I'm coming from, allow for the worst, hope for the best, so I'll sit on my hands until I have to have it.
> I'm not worried about the clotting, adverse reaction etc, I just think I'm not going anywhere and there is no rampant outbreak.
> So why have the shot when they are no doubt monitoring it and tweaking it, like I said I will no doubt have to have it at some time, but it is like buying the first car in a production run, the recalls and improvements over the life of the model run are amazing.



A lot of the population are waiting and knowing that the government plans to isolate us till after the election. They are likely to be safe.

It is a personal risk reward calculation.

If, however, the Indian virus does get loose then it will be difficult to stop as it is said to be more contagious than the UK virus. The desperate lines to get a vaccine will then start forming In earnest.

In a few months Europe, China, Singapore, Israel, USA will be operating open economies again and we will still be in danger.


----------



## pozindustrial (20 May 2021)

I don't like to keep defending so I wont comment on other posts and besides, seeing many sides is good, so I will clarify my personal concerns instead which is not necessarily anti-vaxx, it is pro good health solutions.
I still believe we are being conned, the government is being conned and our medical officers are being conned that a vaccine is the only answer to Covid safety.
Great doctors have attested to the excellent benefits of cheap, freely-available, generic drugs for both prevention and treatment of Covid, yet the government is pushing very unsafe (relatively) and poor supply of so-called vaccines of questionable performance, making people wait, causing many deaths.
The other treatments are very well documented with large case studies. Why is this happening? Who is pulling the strings? I don't like this deceit, the manipulation of wellness in favour of expensive solutions that produce very poor results. And the companies behind the vaccine solutions have complete absolution from any damages caused. That is a big worry, they should not have that power.
I would like our government leaders to do far more research before recommending a medical solution for all instead of bowing to international peer pressure without doing their own investigations.


----------



## rederob (20 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> I don't like to keep defending so I wont comment on other posts and besides, seeing many sides is good, so I will clarify my personal concerns instead which is not necessarily anti-vaxx, it is pro good health solutions.
> I still believe we are being conned, the government is being conned and our medical officers are being conned that a vaccine is the only answer to Covid safety.
> Great doctors have attested to the excellent benefits of cheap, freely-available, generic drugs for both prevention and treatment of Covid, yet the government is pushing very unsafe (relatively) and poor supply of so-called vaccines of questionable performance, making people wait, causing many deaths.
> The other treatments are very well documented with large case studies. Why is this happening? Who is pulling the strings? I don't like this deceit, the manipulation of wellness in favour of expensive solutions that produce very poor results. And the companies behind the vaccine solutions have complete absolution from any damages caused. That is a big worry, they should not have that power.
> I would like our government leaders to do far more research before recommending a medical solution for all instead of bowing to international peer pressure without doing their own investigations.



@pozindustrial - you actually need to offer something better than your opinion.
The world's best medical experts completely disagree with you.
The treatment you say have been freely available definitely did not make a dent in rampant covid outbreaks, and to this day has been no help. Whatever you are claiming, it's simply not backed up by medical science.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> A lot of the population are waiting and knowing that the government plans to isolate us till after the election. They are likely to be safe.
> 
> It is a personal risk reward calculation.
> 
> ...



Very true knobby and that is why I said it is a personal choice, not because Im anti vaxx.
I have always paid for private health insurance, I cant see why I cant chose which vaccine I want, if I want the Pfizer I should be able to access it.
Why is the only vaccine available for those over 50, the AstraZeneca, I know it is great, but if I pay extra for choice, why isnt there choice, isnt that discrimination?
I guess discrimination is only when it affects those that the media class as deserving.
Just my opinion.


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## macca (20 May 2021)

I find the insistence that it be one or the other rather odd, the drugs that have been proven to work against Covid can still be taken if vaccinated.

I have read that if a person gets sick with Covid they are given no treatment just oxygen to help with breathing.

If I get the flu and I go to hospital they will treat me, why not with Covid, seems like they don't want to acknowledge that symptoms can be eased with other meds.

From the very outset there was no concerted effort to find a treatment, it was all about waiting for the vaccine.

It was individual Doctors who wanted to save their own patients that came up with treatments that worked

I think this disregard for anything But the Vaccine is the main thing driving the conspiracy theory.

Just dreadful for the people that died in the meantime though


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2021)

macca said:


> I find the insistence that it be one or the other rather odd, the drugs that have been proven to work against Covid can still be taken if vaccinated.
> 
> I have read that if a person gets sick with Covid they are given no treatment just oxygen to help with breathing.
> 
> ...



Absolutely macca.
Now it is you will take this one if you're under 50 and take the other one if you are over 50, WTF if you are 50 and two months? Best of luck?
If the Pfizer has a better long term efficacy, just pour the AZ down the sink or give it to a Country that really needs it at the moment and wait for the Pfizer to be available, it isn't as though a$hit load of money hasn't already been thrown at this.


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## IFocus (20 May 2021)

Craton...I got the headache to, booked in for AZ next Thursday.


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## sptrawler (20 May 2021)

Let us know how it goes @IFocus , is that at a local provider?


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## pozindustrial (21 May 2021)

I am not against immunisation that has been proven safe and does the job. Most vaccines unfortunately do not come into that category.

For those who think a vaccine is the choice of doctors ...
Dr. Peter McCullough is in the top five most-published medical researchers in the US. He testified before a senate committee asking why patient treatment is being ignored in favour of a vaccine solution. 

There are many high-level doctors, researchers and scientists globally who have been asking the same question. They are ignored and most have been silenced. That really worries me. What is the difference here between what is happening to us via our governments and communist China? - Very little. My interest is in good health, my concern is in the commercialization of everyone's health and the censorship of any voice of reason against it.


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## Belli (21 May 2021)

He's a cardiologist.  Zero expertise in vaccines.


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## pozindustrial (21 May 2021)

Belli said:


> He's a cardiologist.  Zero expertise in vaccines.



Really? He is talking about treatment! Can’t understand why you take this level of attack instead of listening and learning more.


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## Belli (21 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Really? He is talking about treatment! Can’t understand why you take this level of attack instead of listening and learning more.




Considering my sources and contacts are those at a couple of universities I'm OK with dismissing a guest on Tucker Calrson.


----------



## rederob (21 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> I am not against immunisation that has been proven safe and does the job. Most vaccines unfortunately do not come into that category.
> 
> For those who think a vaccine is the choice of doctors ...
> Dr. Peter McCullough is in the top five most-published medical researchers in the US. He testified before a senate committee asking why patient treatment is being ignored in favour of a vaccine solution.
> ...




@pozindustrial again offers zero medical science evidence.  Carlson and Hannity on US Fox News have championed conspiracy theories and promoted pseudoscience for many years.
YouTube withdrew Dr McCulloch's upload because it was inconsistent with medical findings. 
When the medical centre where McCullough holds his position disagrees with what he promotes as a treatment for an area of medicine has have no expertise in then we have a problem!


macca said:


> From the very outset there was no concerted effort to find a treatment, it was all about waiting for the vaccine.



This is completely false.  Dozens of papers were published on possible treatment regimes in China within months of the Wuhan outbreak.
Meanwhile a March 2020 French paper proposed a potential cure using hydroxychloroquine, especially in combination with azithromycin.  There are now thousands of medical science papers available (Dr McCulloch actually suggests around 50000) on the issue of treating SARS-CoV-2.


----------



## rederob (21 May 2021)

Fixed - my proof reading does not exist .


rederob said:


> When the medical centre where McCullough holds his position disagrees with what he promotes as a treatment *for an area of medicine he has no expertise in* then we have a problem!


----------



## macca (21 May 2021)

rederob said:


> @pozindustrial again offers zero medical science evidence.  Carlson and Hannity on US Fox News have championed conspiracy theories and promoted pseudoscience for many years.
> YouTube withdrew Dr McCulloch's upload because it was inconsistent with medical findings.
> When the medical centre where McCullough holds his position disagrees with what he promotes as a treatment for an area of medicine has have no expertise in then we have a problem!
> 
> ...




There may be papers released but the medical profession in OZ sat back and ignored them, We will wait for the vaccine thank you !!

WHY ???? 

There are many studies proving that some very well proven drugs can be repurposed but here in OZ  they are simply not mentioned by the so called experts.

Vitamin D is not a magic bullet but it Does greatly improve the defences of the body against URTIs, why no recommendation to take Vit D

Lots of Royal Commissions get called for, maybe we need one into the lack of action by the medical profession on Covid


----------



## IFocus (21 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Let us know how it goes @IFocus , is that at a local provider?




Yes SP, Modern Medical at Halls Head have setup as vaccine clinic wife had her 1st AZ jab last Wednesday.


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## basilio (21 May 2021)

The hard wired insanity of true anti-vaxxers.😷









						Health authority 'disheartened' as hairdresser bans COVID-vaccinated clients
					

An anti-vax hairdresser in south-west Victoria is criticised after announcing on social media that she's banning customers who have received a COVID-19 vaccine.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (21 May 2021)

macca said:


> There may be papers released but the medical profession in OZ sat back and ignored them,



And your evidence for this is what?


macca said:


> There are many studies proving that some very well proven drugs can be repurposed but here in OZ  they are simply not mentioned by the so called experts.



Again, where is your evidence that this is not happening?
Do we keep taking your word for claims which are sometimes *totally *false?


----------



## pozindustrial (22 May 2021)

> As he reported the news that night, Kory expressed disgust with “the physician scientists in the ivory towers and public health agencies” who are “just not getting it.” It was up to doctors now to save lives as the scientists are “completely disconnected to how to treat this disease and what to do.”




That quote is from this article about doctors pleading with governments to use ivermectin to save lives. The scientists are the ones who have gone mad, and active censorship by governments, Google, Wikipedia and many others has labelled the doctors at the frontline and anyone else who tells us how things really are regarding Covid treatments as "Anti Vaxxers & Conspiracy Theorists" How can exposing what is really happening be a conspiracy? How can denying life-saving treatment to dying patients be considered good public health?

I say again, we are being conned.



			https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/The-Drug-that-Cracked-Covid-by-Michael-Capuzzo.pdf


----------



## rederob (22 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> That quote is from this article about doctors pleading with governments to use ivermectin to save lives. The scientists are the ones who have gone mad, and active censorship by governments, Google, Wikipedia and many others has labelled the doctors at the frontline and anyone else who tells us how things really are regarding Covid treatments as "Anti Vaxxers & Conspiracy Theorists" How can exposing what is really happening be a conspiracy? How can denying life-saving treatment to dying patients be considered good public health?
> 
> I say again, we are being conned.
> 
> ...



@pozindustrial did not tell you that these doctors are free to post their findings, and they have.  
Here's the reason their work is being discounted by some medical professionals for now and *NOT *censored.
The fact is that doctors continue to use proven effective treatments and Kory's group are able to practise what they believe works best.


----------



## cynic (22 May 2021)

No censorship of doctors offering alternative findings?!!
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...articles-related-to-vitamin-d-c-and-zinc.aspx


----------



## pozindustrial (22 May 2021)

Trouble with the internet is that posts contrary to powerful interests, despite being informative, can be easily found and dealt with. Google is broken, Wikipedia have reduced to censorship based on dubious 'fact checking' that is clearly lies. We used to rely on these for great information, but sadly no longer. Same for facebook and twitter. Far rights will be p*$$d off by twitter's censorship of Trump. We are heading towards communism under the guise of Western freedom.


----------



## rederob (22 May 2021)

cynic said:


> No censorship of doctors offering alternative findings?!!
> https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...articles-related-to-vitamin-d-c-and-zinc.aspx



Crackpot findings that have no scientific or medical merit are _de rigueur_ in the USA.  
Just as Trump was removed from Twitter, others peddling crap can suffer the same fate.  
Most social media platforms have well established protocols for removing content they deem in breach.  
Apart from that Mercola has been advised by competent authorities that it is *illegal *to make many of his claims.  *That's not censorship*.


----------



## pozindustrial (23 May 2021)

I am not saying people should not get vaccinated, but before you do you may want to compare the risks. 

This article gives the figures of how it compares to the flu shot. This is the type of analysis that is being censored instead of widely distributed so that people can be fully informed. Health authorities do not even attempt to debate this or counter it other than to apply a derogatory label to it. We are being given the mushroom treatment.









						What Should the Public Know When Getting the Jab?
					

More and more research is coming out regarding the potential effects of the jab. Find out the latest studies here.




					articles.mercola.com


----------



## rederob (23 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> I am not saying people should not get vaccinated, but before you do you may want to compare the risks.
> 
> This article gives the figures of how it compares to the flu shot. This is the type of analysis that is being censored instead of widely distributed so that people can be fully informed. Health authorities do not even attempt to debate this or counter it other than to apply a derogatory label to it. We are being given the mushroom treatment.
> 
> ...



@pozindustrial, before you use Fox News as a source it would be a good idea to understand what the word *causal* means.
Why?
Because if you receive a vaccine, and in the USA some 275 million doses have been administered, and you die some time afterwards your will be recorded on VAERS as a death after vaccination.  However, we find that *after a review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records * a causal relationship is only plausibly linked to a relatively small number of deaths due to blood clotting.
In other words we would normally expect around 4000 deaths in the 5 months to mid May 2021in a population of 275 irrespective of whether or not vaccinations were administered.
I suggest @pozindustrial get a lot better educated in this field as he continues to post misinformation.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 May 2021)

With F


pozindustrial said:


> I am not saying people should not get vaccinated, but before you do you may want to compare the risks.
> 
> This article gives the figures of how it compares to the flu shot. This is the type of analysis that is being censored instead of widely distributed so that people can be fully informed. Health authorities do not even attempt to debate this or counter it other than to apply a derogatory label to it. We are being given the mushroom treatment.
> 
> ...



With Fox news look at what they do rather than what they say.
Just about every one of them has been vaccinated. Sean Hennity when asked if he was vaccinated said its no ones business knowing whether he has or not.
Follow the actions!


----------



## grah33 (24 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Why are you repeating a link which is bollocks?
> And I have no idea what your point is about airports because it makes no sense.
> 
> Some basic facts:
> ...



i gotta do some research ,  but ... 

asymptomatic transmission (transmission with no symptoms) may in fact be just bull

and the over 50s use this vaccine, and under 50s this one ... also resembles bull


----------



## rederob (24 May 2021)

grah33 said:


> i gotta do some research ,  but ...
> 
> asymptomatic transmission (transmission with no symptoms) may in fact be just bull
> 
> and the over 50s use this vaccine, and under 50s this one ... also resembles bull



I agree that you "gotta do some research".


----------



## pozindustrial (24 May 2021)

> asymptomatic transmission (transmission with no symptoms) may in fact be just bull
> 
> and the over 50s use this vaccine, and under 50s this one ... also resembles bull




Correct, Bull. No such thing as asymptomatic transmission. Created to scare us into complying with whatever it is they want us to do. They cannot prove it so it is just made up. The vaccine should take years to test, but emergency powers have given them permission to bring it out early without the safety testing over time (while preventing access to drugs proven to work extremely well such as ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine). So to say one is better for over 50 etc. is just simply flying by the seat of their pants as the injured numbers pile up and provide them with statistics. This is insanity! So why are our medical advisors so incompetent? It is because the drug companies are so efficient with their marketing, their influence, their lobbying and their lies. Billions of dollars in fines paid out by the drug companies for illegal activities proves it, but people still think they are akin to God.


----------



## Knobby22 (24 May 2021)

If you live in Melbourne and are over 50 and haven't had your vaccine, all I can say is "feeling lucky....punk." 😉


----------



## IFocus (24 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Correct, Bull. No such thing as asymptomatic transmission. Created to scare us into complying with whatever it is they want us to do. They cannot prove it so it is just made up. The vaccine should take years to test, *but emergency powers have given them permission to bring it out early without the safety testing over time* (while preventing access to drugs proven to work extremely well such as ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine). So to say one is better for over 50 etc. is just simply flying by the seat of their pants as the injured numbers pile up and provide them with statistics. This is insanity! So why are our medical advisors so incompetent? It is because the drug companies are so efficient with their marketing, their influence, their lobbying and their lies. Billions of dollars in fines paid out by the drug companies for illegal activities proves it, but people still think they are akin to God.




The testing was actually quite reasonable given that the flu vaccine is tested on 10K or less COVID vacs on 30K or more of course now you are talking 10's of millions.

Hydroxychloroquine has been shown to be at best non effective and at worse harmful.


----------



## basilio (25 May 2021)




----------



## sptrawler (25 May 2021)

basilio said:


> View attachment 124847



I'm not an anti vaxxer, but people shouldn't make light of their concerns, there has been issues with drugs before and from appearances this vaccine seems to be rushed. Which it may have to be, who knows.
Time has moved on knowledge, testing and checks are much better now, but there are those who are worried, especially when the media plasters every bad experience into cyber space.








						What's happened to Thalidomide babies?
					

The so-called Thalidomide babies have hit 50 and many face rising bills to help them cope with increasing immobility.



					www.bbc.com
				











						Vaccine testing falsely equated with thalidomide development decades ago
					

CLAIM: “Rapid 8 month tested vaccine? Thalidomide was a RAPID APPROVED drug introduced in 1957, to address nausea and insomnia in pregnant women. It was marketed in 50 countries before being withdrawn in 1962 due to malformations in newborns...




					apnews.com


----------



## basilio (26 May 2021)

*Exactly* what we need to Victoria...

*  Victoria Renames Jabs ‘Piccolo’, ‘Almond Milk’ & ‘Three-Quarter Latte’ In Attempt To Increase Take-Up   * 





With vaccination rates lagging behind the rest of the world, the Victorian Government has begun offering a range of new vaccine options, including piccolo, soy-latte, double-espresso with the milk on the side and single-origin cold brew, in a desperate attempt to increase those coming in to get the jab.

“We had to do something to convince smug Victorians to take this ******* vaccine,” a spokesperson for the program said. “All the vaccines are the same – we just give them different names so people think they’re being different and individual.                                                                                                                 
“One guy came in and asked for a magic, and we said sure, if that makes you feel special, let’s call it a magic. And he sat down and got the vaccine straight away”.

The spokesperson said they were willing to take all sorts of orders. “You want a double shot single origin latte with the milk on the side? Righto, let’s call it that. And here’s a little carry tray for you to walk around with afterwards”.

Since the start of the program, demand has dramatically increased. “We’ve found that people have started lining up for it now, especially since we moved the mass vaccination centre to a shitty little hole in the wall down an alleyway”.

The Queensland Government will trial a similar program for Queenslanders, offering vaccines in watery mid-strength beer flavours.








						Victoria Renames Jabs ‘Piccolo’, ‘Almond Milk’ & ‘Three-Quarter Latte’ In Attempt To Increase Take-Up
					

Queensland will offer vaccines in watery mid-strength beer flavours.




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2021)

Sounds as though mRNA vaccines might be getting made here, the Government will no doubt be pushing hard.








						US vaccine maker Moderna pushes ahead with setting up shop in Australia
					

The US mRNA vaccine maker is getting the documents in place to set up an Australian business.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
US vaccine maker Moderna has filed documents with the corporate regulator to set up a local company after announcing plans last month to launch commercial operations in Australia.

The Nasdaq-listed biotech made the surprise announcement earlier this month that it would sell 25 million doses of its messenger-RNA coronavirus vaccine to Australia and said it was in talks with the government about local manufacturing opportunities.
Moderna told investors earlier this year it planned to set up operations in Australia at some point in 2021.

Documents filed with the Australian Securities and Investments Commission (ASIC) show this process has begun, with an application lodged by Moderna on May 14 to set up a company called Moderna Australia. According to the documents, its ultimate holding company would be the US business Moderna Inc.
The Moderna product is a two-shot vaccine, with doses administered 28 days apart. Like the Pfizer/BioNTech product it uses mRNA to instruct the body to fight the virus. It can be stored for six months at -20 degrees celcius, but at up to 30 days at normal refrigeration temperatures.

Australia has ordered 25 million Moderna doses, but only 10 million are expected in this calendar year with the balance arriving next year.

The company does not currently have any commercial presence in Australia.


----------



## Craton (27 May 2021)

Posted in the Private Members area my experience with the COVID-19 vaccination


----------



## rederob (28 May 2021)

What does a ramp up look like?




The above charts the 15 most populous nations plus Australia:
In the past month China has carried out over 317 million vaccinations and America 57 million in the same period.  
On 25 May China vaccinated 19.5 million citizens compared to less than 5 million a month earlier, whereas America went from to around 2 million to less than a million.  Australia increased its jab numbers by 50K over the same period, off a very low 30K base.


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

rederob said:


> What does a ramp up look like?
> 
> The above charts the 15 most populous nations plus Australia:
> In the past month China has carried out over 317 million vaccinations and America 57 million in the same period.
> On 25 May China vaccinated 19.5 million citizens compared to less than 5 million a month earlier, whereas America went from to around 2 million to less than a million.  Australia increased its jab numbers by 50K over the same period, off a very low 30K base.



I guess that is the difference between incentives, in the U.S they are offering free beer for people who have the vaccine, I wonder what China is offering.  
_








						Beer and donuts offered as incentive to get COVID jab
					






					www.9news.com.au
				



_


----------



## rederob (28 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I guess that is the difference between incentives, in the U.S they are offering free beer for people who have the vaccine, I wonder what China is offering.
> _
> 
> 
> ...



Australia offers a Liberal dose of clotting.

A better picture of where Australia sits is here:


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

Maybe China is making an offer, no one can refuse?


----------



## Humid (28 May 2021)

AstraZeneca Jab Renamed ‘Franking Credits’ To Encourage Take Up Amongst Elderly
					

"It's just the injection I needed!"




					www.theshovel.com.au
				




This will get sp motivated...


----------



## IFocus (29 May 2021)

This is pretty good...not as good as Humid's post BTW 

Its interesting if only showing a good example the spin run out instead of just sticking to realities of supply and distribution problems









						The short, confusing history of Australia’s shifting vaccination targets
					

Is Australia's slow vaccine rollout to blame for Victoria's latest lockdown? We've tracked more than a dozen targets, revisions and updates to the vaccine timetable.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (29 May 2021)

I take heart that the vaccination rates are increasing now and the Government is now sourcing the Moderna vaccine.


----------



## IFocus (29 May 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I take heart that the vaccination rates are increasing now and the Government is now sourcing the Moderna vaccine.





So do I Knobby, I suspect by and large the issues will now be hesitancy or rejection of AZ which I can understand.


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I take heart that the vaccination rates are increasing now and the Government is now sourcing the Moderna vaccine.



Also it sounds as though Moderna are going to build a plant here.


----------



## Miss Hale (30 May 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> If you live in Melbourne and are over 50 and haven't had your vaccine, all I can say is "feeling lucky....punk." 😉




Is that a threat?


----------



## Knobby22 (30 May 2021)

Miss Hale said:


> Is that a threat?



Its a joke! Read it again.


----------



## grah33 (30 May 2021)

why would u want to get vaccinated if you're young?


----------



## bellenuit (30 May 2021)

Because young people can catch the virus. And in some it has led to death and in others permanent disabilities. The risk of side effects from the vaccine is low in comparison to the risk of getting Covid and being debilitated by its side effects. It is a low cost precaution.


----------



## Belli (31 May 2021)

grah33 said:


> why would u want to get vaccinated if you're young?




It would seem the new variant (and there will be more) is more transmissible and the experience in some countries indicate the death rate for younger people is rising with newer variants.


----------



## sptrawler (31 May 2021)

This sounds promising, there may be an ability to mix and match vaccines.








						Can I get AstraZeneca now and Pfizer later?
					

While the TGA hasn't yet approved a mix and match vaccination schedule for Australia, some countries are already doing it. So how does mixing and matching work? Fiona Russell and John Hart explain.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
If one vaccine is less effective than another against a certain variant, mix and match schedules could ensure people who've already received one dose of a vaccine with lower effectiveness could get a booster with a vaccine that's more effective against the variant.

Some countries are already using mix and match vaccine schedules following changing recommendations regarding the AstraZeneca vaccine because of a very rare side effect of a blood clotting/bleeding condition.

Several countries in Europe are now advising younger people previously given this vaccine as a first dose should receive an alternative vaccine as their second dose, most commonly mRNA vaccines such as Pfizer's.

Germany, France, Sweden, Norway and Denmark are among those advising mixed vaccination schedules due to this reason.
Is it safe?​In a UK mix and match study published in the Lancet in May, 830 adults over 50 were randomised to get either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccines first, then the other vaccine later.

It found people who received mixed doses were more likely to develop mild to moderate symptoms including chills, fatigue, fever, headache, joint pain, malaise, muscle ache and pain at the injection site, compared to those on the standard non-mixed schedule.
Is it effective?​The Spanish study found people had a vastly higher antibody response 14 days after receiving the Pfizer booster.

These antibodies were able to recognise and inactivate the coronavirus in lab tests.

This response to the Pfizer boost seems to be stronger than the response after receiving two doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, according to earlier trial data. The immune response of getting Pfizer followed by AstraZeneca isn't known yet, but the UK will have results available soon.

There's no data yet on how effective mix and match schedules are in preventing COVID-19. But they're likely to work well as the immune response is similar, or even better, compared with studies using the same vaccine as the first and second dose. This indicates they will work well in preventing disease.
Might this be one way to help resolve Australia's slow rollout?​In Australia, we've seen many people wanting to "wait for Pfizer" and not have the AstraZeneca vaccine. This is despite the UK's recent real-world findings that, following two doses, both vaccines are similarly effective against the variants circulating in the UK.
The results from these mix and match studies support the possibility of vaccinating people who have received the first dose from AstraZeneca, with a different booster, if the need arises.

Further studies are underway to evaluate mix and match schedules with Moderna and Novavax vaccines, both of which Australia has supply deals with.
The current cases in Victoria are caused by the B.1.617.1 ("Indian") variant. Both vaccines are effective against the closely related B.1.617.2 variant (albeit a bit lower than against B.1.1.7) and we would expect similar effectiveness against B.1.617.1.

It's not clear what kind of evidence regulatory authorities, like Australia's TGA, would require for a mixed schedule to be approved for use.


----------



## IFocus (31 May 2021)

grah33 said:


> why would u want to get vaccinated if you're young?




Still a risk of requiring medical treatment but the issue is passing it onto the vulnerable and killing them.


----------



## macca (1 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> Still a risk of requiring medical treatment but the issue is passing it onto the vulnerable and killing them.




I am not trying to be argumentative, just cautious

The PM stated that even people that are vaccinated can still catch Covid and will still be contagious if they do catch it.

I have also read this on other sites

I am concerned that folk will get vaccinated and then ignore social distancing and other precautions and we will all be in lock down again


----------



## bellenuit (1 June 2021)

macca said:


> I am not trying to be argumentative, just cautious
> 
> The PM stated that even people that are vaccinated can still catch Covid and will still be contagious if they do catch it.
> 
> ...




That is true, but we know the results coming out of the UK, US and now Canada show that the rate of breakthrough infection is exceedingly low, less than 5% I think. This is even better than had been expected and in those three countries is based on a substantial number of vaccinations not just a lab sample.

I think almost everyone vaccinated is aware that there is a slight possibility that could get reinfected and reinfect others, even if they themselves are asymptomatic. They would have to be living in a vacuum not to be unaware of that, but there will always be a few. However, the fact that they have been vaccinated (assuming voluntarily) would suggest that they are aware of how dangerous COVID19 is and how easy it can spread. Of more concern are those who refuse to get vaccinated or are just too complacent about it. They, IMO, are the ones that do not understand the seriousness of COVID19 and are more likely not to observe basic precautions because of their belief  that it won't effect they themselves or will only cause mild symptoms. If they care little about protecting themselves from infection, they are likely to care less about protecting others.


----------



## IFocus (1 June 2021)

macca said:


> I am not trying to be argumentative, just cautious
> 
> The PM stated that even people that are vaccinated can still catch Covid and will still be contagious if they do catch it.
> 
> ...





No argument Macca completely agree and as Bellenuit discusses above the risk is greatly reduced not eliminated for those not vaccinated.

BTW my mother got her 1st jab today in her nursing home and it was Pfizer... SP if you are reading booked into nursing care now


----------



## rederob (2 June 2021)

An update on our state of play compared to a ragbag of other nations:







Mongolia is set to take the lead by next week as it's vaccinating at more than twice the rate of every other nation except China.  
On 31 May China jabbed over 22M citizens compared with America's 1.2M. 

As at 31 May just over 3% of our population had received both doses.


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2021)

rederob said:


> As at 31 May just over 3% of our population had received both doses.



By the way rederob, as you are so great at putting up graphs, how about putting up a graph to show by country, how many deaths Australia has had due to covis compared to those above?
Myself and my wife are both prepared to take the vaccine, but we would like to have the mRNA vaccine, whether it is better or worse doesn't come into it, we personally have more faith in the mRNA vaccine..
As per usual that faith, may well be misplaced. 🤣


----------



## rederob (3 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> By the way rederob, as you are so great at putting up graphs, how about putting up a graph to show by country, how many deaths Australia has had due to covis compared to those above?
> Myself and my wife are both prepared to take the vaccine, but we would like to have the mRNA vaccine, whether it is better or worse doesn't come into it, we personally have more faith in the mRNA vaccine..
> As per usual that faith, may well be misplaced. 🤣



That info can be found here.
Regarding vaccines, as you have pointed out it's early days in terms of known side effects.  mRNA vaccines clearly show good results in preventing development of symptoms.  However, where symptoms are occurring, they tend to be more severe and require hospitalisation. Inactivated vaccines are significantly less efficacious, but what little data is available suggests severe symptoms are uncommon, hospitalisations are rare and deaths negligible. They would require regular boosters just as flu shots do.  But we don't have them so its either Pf, AZ or Mod this year.
Anyway, as shown by the UK, Israel and even the USA, once high rates of vaccination penetration are achieved deaths reduce (none yesterday in the UK) and restrictive measures can be eased.  Perhaps that data will be picked up by our government and lead to an earlier opening of international travel than otherwise planned.


----------



## basilio (3 June 2021)

Just as everyone  in Victoria  is taking vaccination very seriously we discover what the Federal has been doing to provide supply.
Just not enough.









						‘Critical’ lack of Covid vaccine supply in Melbourne forcing GPs to turn people away
					

Undersupply so severe amid outbreak clinic forced to turn away residents of two care facilities




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (3 June 2021)

The Biden administration has moved very quickly to vaccinate around 50% of the population. Interesting to see how Joe Biden is making a huge public push to have a Month of Action that will see 70% of the population vaccinated before summer.

_Incentives for getting a shot, he said, include tax credits for employers and paid time off to get vaccines, free childcare for parents and caregivers to do so, and free beer and complimentary rides to and from vaccination appointments.

“It’s going to take everyone, the federal government to state governments, local, tribal and territorial governments, and private sector, and most importantly the American people, to get to the 70% mark,” he said.

“America is headed into the summer dramatically different from last year, a summer of freedom, a summer of joy, a summer of get togethers and celebrations, an all-American summer that this country deserves. You might even be invited to visit us at the White House in July to celebrate Independence together,” he added._









						Biden announces ‘month of action’ to get 70% of Americans vaccinated
					

President dangles promise of a ‘summer of freedom’ to reluctant Americans and lays out plan to achieve Fourth of July target




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## rederob (8 June 2021)

Australia still has a long way to go to match many countries with vaccine access:





However, it's a massive improvement over the past week.


----------



## rederob (9 June 2021)

*Herd immunity is often touted as +70% of the population.
As you can see from this chart of randomly selected nations, only one nation is close to that number:*




*Surprisingly New Zealand is well ahead of Australia.*


----------



## sptrawler (10 June 2021)

Pfizer vaccine to be cleared for use on children soon.








						Australia tipped to approve Pfizer vaccine for children this year
					

But Australian children and adolescents may not be asked to roll up their sleeves for many months after the expected approval.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## rederob (11 June 2021)

Another random selection of nations, this time for those who have been jabbed at least once.
This time notice how rapidly Canada has been vaccinating of late, and also Japan, albeit belatedly given they will soon be holding the olympics:




What is encouraging is that greater quantities of vaccines are now being produced and distributed, so the slow start for most countries usually increases rapidly.  An exception to this is for nations that simply cannot afford vaccines and have relied on irregular charitable donations or the Covax facility to date.


----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2021)

The Novavax appears to be getting good results against the variants of the virus, also the company is interested in building a production facility in Australia, similar to Moderna.








						Novavax COVID-19 shot shows 90 per cent efficacy, large study finds
					

The Australian government has ordered 51 million doses of Novavax’s product, which is easy to store and transport.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
Vaccine maker Novavax has said that its shot demonstrates high efficacy against COVID-19 and also protects against variants in a large, late-stage study in the US and Mexico.
Novavax’s study involved nearly 30,000 people aged 18 and over in the US and Mexico. Two-thirds received two doses of the vaccine, three weeks apart, and the rest got dummy shots.

There were 77 cases of COVID-19 — 14 in the group that got the vaccine and the rest were in volunteers who received placebo shots. None in the vaccine group had moderate or severe disease, compared to 14 in the placebo group.

The vaccine was efficacious against several variants, including the one first detected in the UK, which is dominant in the US, and in high-risk populations including the elderly and people with other health problems.

The study showed about 90 per cent efficacy overall, with preliminary data showing it was safe, the company said on Monday.
The Australian government has ordered 51 million doses of Novavax’s product. In May, the company outlined plans to make doses of its coronavirus vaccine in Australia after revealing it is searching for a manufacturing partner to produce its protein-based jab onshore.

The US company’s plans to explore setting up shop in Australia come one week after fellow US biotech Moderna said it was in talks with the federal government about local manufacturing opportunities.


----------



## Knobby22 (15 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The Novavax appears to be getting good results against the variants of the virus, also the company is interested in building a production facility in Australia, similar to Moderna.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hope we are smart and make them compete for a deal.


----------



## ghotib (15 June 2021)

For those who are interested in personal stories of vaccination, my husbank and I had our 2nd AstraZeneca jabs today. No issues beyond a slight ache at the jab site today; closest thing to a problem rom the 1st shot was a headache, which might have had nothing to do with the jab and went away without so much as a paracetamol tablet.  Very boring stories, but when it comes to matters medical, boring is good.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 June 2021)

ghotib said:


> For those who are interested in personal stories of vaccination, my husbank and I had our 2nd AstraZeneca jabs today. No issues beyond a slight ache at the jab site today; closest thing to a problem rom the 1st shot was a headache, which might have had nothing to do with the jab and went away without so much as a paracetamol tablet.  Very boring stories, but when it comes to matters medical, boring is good.




If it's not impertinent, may I ask how old you and your husband are ?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 June 2021)

Anti viral pills under developement.









						What if treating COVID was as simple as taking a pill? The US wants to make it happen
					

The United States is devoting $US3.2 billion ($4.2 billion) to speed development of antiviral pills to treat COVID-19 and other dangerous viruses that could turn into pandemics.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (18 June 2021)

I'm getting the pfizer vaccination next month second dose a month after that. Signed up on the app.


----------



## wayneL (18 June 2021)

I have no plans to have any of the vaccines until I am convinced they are safe...

Risk Vs reward - I see that my risk of actually contracting the virus is extremely low. Given my robust health, I doubt that if I contracted the virus that it would be a serious problem (and *may have already had it, dunno).

Long-term effects of any of these vaxes are unknown and... I've done my travelling, not interested in going anywhere from now on. In fact I would be quite happy to live as a hermit and shut this crazy world out altogether for a while. (Apart from the occasional sojourn to "The Woodie" when there are $6 pints of Guinness and all the local Irishmen and women turn up with their instruments).

I'm not saying I would never get vaxed, but for now, all you lot can go first.


----------



## macca (18 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Anti viral pills under developement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Many Doctors are adamant that we already have at least two treatments that work, no one seems to care, all rather weird.

No wonder conspiracy theories gain traction


----------



## Humid (18 June 2021)

The way its going with the Astra Vaccine it will be suitable for people 90+


----------



## Humid (18 June 2021)

wayneL said:


> I have no plans to have any of the vaccines until I am convinced they are safe...
> 
> Risk Vs reward - I see that my risk of actually contracting the virus is extremely low. Given my robust health, I doubt that if I contracted the virus that it would be a serious problem (and *may have already had it, dunno).
> 
> ...



Pretty fair comment welcome to WA wayneL
Rose and crown is a cool pub too


----------



## sptrawler (18 June 2021)

Humid said:


> The way its going with the Astra Vaccine it will be suitable for people 90+



It is obviously o.k for those who feel they really do need to get vaccinated, I have met quite a few, they are a bit scary when they ask "HAVE YOU BEEN VACCINATED"?, with piercing eyes.
I kind of avoid the question and change the subject, like say "oh by the way, which incontinence pad have you found the most effective", that normally throws them off their train of thought.🤣


----------



## sptrawler (18 June 2021)

I remember in the early days of the covid safe apps, I said people were scared of the 'Australia' card because of privacy concerns, yet the same people become the covid app police and say "have you checked in"?
Many said I was just being a dick, well now we see what i was talking about. 🤣

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06...law-change-after-police-access-data/100201340

OMG, Sp you nailed it, at last.🥳


----------



## wayneL (18 June 2021)

Humid said:


> Pretty fair comment welcome to WA wayneL
> Rose and crown is a cool pub too



Thanks Humid 

I like the Rose and Crown too. Top spot.


----------



## ghotib (18 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If it's not impertinent, may I ask how old you and your husband are ?



Early seventies, so we didn't give much thought to which vaccine. We also didn't think much about whether to get vaccinated at all, partly because our ages mean we're at high risk from the virus, but also because we wanted to do our bit for community immunity. 

We've been lucky in that the jab was offered and available locally and we went through the whole process early with barely a hiccup (worst problem was roadworks on the way to the 2nd jab). Obviously there are problems with the rollout and many people are worried and uncertain about vaccination,  but I thought it was worth posting our experience as a reminder that stuffups are not the only story.


----------



## sptrawler (19 June 2021)

wayneL said:


> Thanks Humid
> 
> I like the Rose and Crown too. Top spot.



# get a room. Lol


----------



## Humid (19 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I remember in the early days of the covid safe apps, I said people were scared of the 'Australia' card because of privacy concerns, yet the same people become the covid app police and say "have you checked in"?
> Many said I was just being a dick, well now we see what i was talking about. 🤣
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06...law-change-after-police-access-data/100201340
> ...



You could use one of your burner phones


----------



## Humid (19 June 2021)

Government's “appalling” error, rejects offer of 40 million Pfizer doses in July 2020 - Michael West Media
					

Australia was given options for as many Pfizer doses as needed to be delivered in January, yet government officials turned down the offer




					www.michaelwest.com.au
				



If they cant line the pockets of their mates the libs arnt interesed......Clot Morrison


----------



## moXJO (19 June 2021)

wayneL said:


> I have no plans to have any of the vaccines until I am convinced they are safe...
> 
> 
> I'm not saying I would never get vaxed, but for now, all you lot can go first.



I actually don't think I need it either. In fact I think I had covid previously.
And if  vaccination is a yearly thing, then I ain't likely to get it again.
My old man recently was vaccinated and seems fine.
Covid seems a bit overblown by the media to me.

 I can't afford any downtime which is the only reason I'll get it. If everyone else were to get sick I have to look after them all. So for me it's just preparation for a worse case.


----------



## moXJO (19 June 2021)

Humid said:


> .Clot Morrison


----------



## IFocus (19 June 2021)

I have had the 1st AZ and don't know what all the fuss is about, I think a good gauge as to its risk is the fact all our leading politicians have a an AZ jab too... oh hang on   .

I can understand people waiting for Pfizer


----------



## Knobby22 (19 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> I have had the 1st AZ and don't know what all the fuss is about, I think a good gauge as to its risk is the fact all our leading politicians have a an AZ jab too... oh hang on   .
> 
> I can understand people waiting for Pfizer



I can too understand people waiting for Pfizer too,but this Delta variant is likely to mean people may not get it in time,  at least on the east coast.
I predict Sydney will be in lockdown by Tuesday.


----------



## Humid (19 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> I have had the 1st AZ and don't know what all the fuss is about, I think a good gauge as to its risk is the fact all our leading politicians have a an AZ jab too... oh hang on   .
> 
> I can understand people waiting for Pfizer



Yeah I had a AZ jab a couple of weeks ago.....if I stop posting you will figure it out


----------



## Humid (19 June 2021)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/astra-zeneca-second-shots-stop-1.6069838
		


I trust the Canadians more than that Greghunt


----------



## sptrawler (19 June 2021)

My guess, is within a few weeks, the Pfizer vaccine will be an optional for all.


----------



## IFocus (20 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I can too understand people waiting for Pfizer too,but this Delta variant is likely to mean people may not get it in time,  at least on the east coast.
> I predict Sydney will be in lockdown by Tuesday.





Yes the east coast is a different situation I was speaking from the COVID utopia of WA   

There was speculation as to whether NSW would able to run the hot spot thing with the new variants I think you will be right re Sydney I would be running to the nearest vaccine clinic if I was east coast.

Hope all stay safe regardless what ever course is chosen.


----------



## sptrawler (20 June 2021)

Australian mRNA vaccine to be trailed.








						Australia's first local mRNA coronavirus vaccine trials will start 'within months'
					

Victoria's Acting Premier James Merlino announces $5 million of the government's $50 million pot of funds for battling coronavirus will be spent on a program at Monash University to produce mRNA vaccines.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (21 June 2021)

Australia's medical regulator does not expect key data from the country's third major Covid 19 vaccine  hopeful Novavax till September.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 June 2021)

Gladys targeting 40,000 tests a day.
If anyone can stop this without a lockdown it would be her. Truly impressive leader.


----------



## rederob (21 June 2021)

Below is an update on total numbers vaccinated, this time including several continents, plus high income countries.
Low income nations presently account for less than 1% of total vaccinations:





I suspect that what will happen over coming months is that more and more high income nations with relatively high vaccination rates will open up to each other.  Africa as a continent with many borders shared across low income nations is unlikely to get a look in until late 2022 unless a massive effort is made to rectify this imbalance.


----------



## sptrawler (21 June 2021)

Interesting read on the new vaccine developments.








						How this mRNA vaccine being developed in Australia differs from Pfizer
					

Australia's first locally designed and manufactured COVID-19 mRNA vaccine could be within sight, with the first candidate due to start Phase 1 clinical trials by around October or November.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article: a summary.
So what's been announced?​There are two linked, but separate, parts to the announcement.

Firstly, we've learnt about the progress being made on the development of a potential mRNA vaccine here in Australia.

It's been developed by Monash University researchers, who are partnering with the Doherty Institute to run trials looking at both the mRNA and a protein vaccine at the same time.

They are hoping to have Phase 1 clinical trial up and running by October or November, with around 150 trial participants.
How is this mRNA vaccine candidate different to Pfizer?​Professor Pouton said the vaccine under development was a "variant vaccine", modelled from the Beta strain, which was first detected in South Africa.

Existing vaccines have been modelled on the original version of the virus first detected in Wuhan.

Professor Pouton said the second key difference was that existing approved vaccines were what you might call "whole spike vaccines", which prompted the body to build antibodies for the whole spike of the virus.

"The problem with that is that you're sort of raising antibodies against other parts of the protein, which isn't necessarily a problem if the only vaccine is the only virus circulating is Wuhan [strain]," he said.
But variants that have emerged contain mutations at what's referred to as the "receptor-binding domain", which Professor Pouton said accounted for roughly 10 per cent of the overall mass of the coronavirus spike protein.

The new vaccine candidate is aimed at presenting solely the receptor-binding domain to the immune system.

"The advantage of that is that it should lead to neutralising antibodies which bind directly to the receptor-binding domain, which is what we're really trying to achieve with an antibody response," Professor Pouton said.
He said his team believed this approach was likely to produce a better kind of booster shot for future variants, which could be given to those already vaccinated against the original strain.

The team is also in the early stages of testing an mRNA vaccine candidate modelled on the Kappa variant.


----------



## Humid (22 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Gladys targeting 40,000 tests a day.
> If anyone can stop this without a lockdown it would be her. Truly impressive leader.







	

		
			
		

		
	
Easier with the media on your side


----------



## Knobby22 (22 June 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 126461
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Don't forget I predicted lockdown Tuesday (today)! Let's see.
If she doesn't she will be a mug.


----------



## macca (23 June 2021)

Info from Public Health England, the Govt website, data is from February 1st to June 7th 2021

Of 33,206 Delta variant cases admitted to the hospital, 19,573 were not vaccinated. Of those, 23 (or 0.1175%) died.

Of the 1,785 patients who had both vaccine doses 14 days or more before admission, 12 (or 0.6722%) died. This death rate is 5.72 times higher than that for unvaccinated patients.

Even after you have been vaccinated you still need to be careful


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2021)

Pfizer for all after October.








						AstraZeneca vaccine to be used from October only on request
					

The national rollout will rely on millions of doses of Pfizer to immunise the population against COVID-19, with most over-60s expected to be vaccinated before October.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Australia will likely not use the AstraZeneca vaccine after October except by request, with the national rollout to rely on Pfizer doses to immunise the nation against the coronavirus.


----------



## Humid (23 June 2021)

Oxford University explores anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as COVID-19 treatment
					

The University of Oxford said on Wednesday it was testing anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as a possible treatment for COVID-19, as part of a British government-backed study that aims to aid recoveries in non-hospital settings.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2021)

Humid said:


> Oxford University explores anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as COVID-19 treatment
> 
> 
> The University of Oxford said on Wednesday it was testing anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as a possible treatment for COVID-19, as part of a British government-backed study that aims to aid recoveries in non-hospital settings.
> ...



There are some clever people in the World, you just hope they know what they are doing. 🤣


----------



## Humid (23 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There are some clever people in the World, you just hope they know what they are doing. 🤣



No patent on ivermectin


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2021)

Humid said:


> No patent on ivermectin



It is certainly a creative idea and if proven effective, will take medicine to a whole new level.
But that is how medicine has evolved, through left field in innovation, something that no one has thought of.
When we we stop having these innovations, we are finished as a species.
I'm just pleased the 5% of people who are brainy, still manage to rise above the 45% of uni students, who shouldn't have been there in the first place. 😂


----------



## wayneL (24 June 2021)

Humid said:


> Oxford University explores anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as COVID-19 treatment
> 
> 
> The University of Oxford said on Wednesday it was testing anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as a possible treatment for COVID-19, as part of a British government-backed study that aims to aid recoveries in non-hospital settings.
> ...



The plot thickens...


----------



## ghotib (24 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It is certainly a creative idea and if proven effective, will take medicine to a whole new level.
> But that is how medicine has evolved, through left field in innovation, something that no one has thought of.
> When we we stop having these innovations, we are finished as a species.
> I'm just pleased the 5% of people who are brainy, still manage to rise above the 45% of uni students, who shouldn't have been there in the first place. 😂



I usually follow your thinking sp, but this time I'm lost. What is the new (presumably) creative idea? 

FWIW, I think an enormous proportion of human innovations are developed more than once and by more than one group of people. Who gets the credit for being first is a matter of chance.


----------



## macca (24 June 2021)

Humid said:


> Oxford University explores anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as COVID-19 treatment
> 
> 
> The University of Oxford said on Wednesday it was testing anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as a possible treatment for COVID-19, as part of a British government-backed study that aims to aid recoveries in non-hospital settings.
> ...




I wonder will it be a fair trial following the already proven successful protocol or will it be set up to fail the same as the Hydrox... one in the USA.

Doctors that have proved this drug works prescribed it immediately if Covid was suspected. They also prescribed Zinc supplements and DoxyC.... AntiBiotics.

Seems kind of weird that we did not just use this treatment instead of Vaccinations

I notice that Doc Fauci is advocating we vaccinate children now even though WHO say there is no need at present.

No wonder conspiracy theories gain traction in the USA


----------



## moXJO (24 June 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 126461
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let's be real though. Vic government would fck up organising flies on sht.
I heard there's another case in Victoria, time to lock down again.


----------



## rederob (24 June 2021)

macca said:


> I wonder will it be a fair trial following the already proven successful protocol or will it be set up to fail the same as the Hydrox... one in the USA.
> 
> Doctors that have proved this drug works prescribed it immediately if Covid was suspected. They also prescribed Zinc supplements and DoxyC.... AntiBiotics.
> 
> ...



Proven effective treatments are in wide use.  
Your claims about what doctors have proven need to be properly validated.  Furthermore, given vaccinations are proven to reduce symptoms and deaths it makes sense to implement known prevention measures rather than unknown cures.
Finally, your claim on WHO vaccination advice for children is different to what they state:
*Children and adolescents tend to have milder disease compared to adults, so unless they are part of a group at higher risk of severe COVID-19, it is less urgent to vaccinate them than older people, those with chronic health conditions and health workers.   *​


----------



## bellenuit (25 June 2021)

Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated​








						Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated
					

Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.




					apnews.com


----------



## Knobby22 (25 June 2021)

I'm banned from the other Covid thread so talking about Sydney situation here.

It is reminding me of the disastrous Melbourne lockdown last year:
Stage 1: everyone do a few things to slow the spread. (should have acted quicker)
Stage 2: we are locking down a few suburbs. (should have locked down Melbourne, big fines (Gladys is bringing in $1,000 fines))
Stage 3: Locking down the whole state for months. (How did that happen?)


----------



## Knobby22 (25 June 2021)

And this an interesting if not obvious headline.

Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated.​








						Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated
					

Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.




					apnews.com


----------



## IFocus (25 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> *I'm banned from the other Covid* thread so talking about Sydney situation here.
> 
> It is reminding me of the disastrous Melbourne lockdown last year:
> Stage 1: everyone do a few things to slow the spread. (should have acted quicker)
> ...





Why?


----------



## Knobby22 (25 June 2021)

I had an angry outburst when the Trump insurrection was occurring.
I was disgusted and didn't post for a few months and when I came back found I was banned from many threads.
Probably deserved it, they can't help it ,  Useful idiots.


----------



## IFocus (25 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I had an angry outburst when the Trump insurrection was occurring.
> I was disgusted and didn't post for a few months and when I came back found I was banned from many threads.
> Probably deserved it, they can't help it ,  Useful idiots.




Oh I think most of us had angry outbursts, surely you could plead "Victorian lockdown" as extenuating circumstances     

Still might have done you a favour nothing like a break, really good to see you back.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 June 2021)

The NSW government addressed reality. Lockdown. Let's keep our fingers crossed it is highly successful.


----------



## wayneL (26 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> The NSW government addressed reality. Lockdown. Let's keep our fingers crossed it is highly successful.



Successful at what? Damaging/destroying small business? Increasing mental illness and suicide, dividing society further?


----------



## Knobby22 (26 June 2021)

wayneL said:


> Successful at what? Damaging/destroying small business? Increasing mental illness and suicide, dividing society further?



Successful at quelling the virus quickly so its over as fast as possible.
She should have locked down on Tuesday or Wednesday so it would be over in a week. It could be 3 weeks now.
Too many still unvaccinaed at present.
It was interesting that there were quite a number of vaccinated people at that famous party. None of them caught this virus.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 June 2021)

If you want to blame someone then it should be that idiot limousine driver transporting pilots without be vaccinated.


----------



## grah33 (27 June 2021)

Inventor of mRNA vaccine technology  ... warns vaccines are dangerous (still checking it out)


----------



## bellenuit (27 June 2021)

But not nearly as dangerous as not taking vaccines during a pandemic. The stats prove it.


----------



## wayneL (27 June 2021)

bellenuit said:


> But not nearly as dangerous as not taking vaccines during a pandemic. The stats prove it.



The stats need time in regard to this. Your point may well prove to be true, but in the fullness of time, it may not.

Then there is the phenomenon of damn lies and statistics.

Happy for you lot to provide the true stats over time.


----------



## bellenuit (28 June 2021)

wayneL said:


> The stats need time in regard to this. Your point may well prove to be true, but in the fullness of time, it may not.




True, but unlikely to be different to any of the other vaccines that have been introduced in the last hundred years or so. They have overwhelmingly been successful at eliminating or greatly curtailing the diseases they were designed against while at the same time proving comparatively safe (never 100%). Their efficacy tends to increase over time as the viruses are better understood, while the risk of their use reduces.

There is very little reason to think that those COVID vaccines being produced (in the West) under proper supervision and mainly free of political interference will  be any different. Scientific advancement in virology is growing by leaps and bounds.


----------



## grah33 (29 June 2021)

Belli said:


> I had the first shot of the AstraZeneca last Friday week.  Sore arm at the injection site for a couple of days but apart from that no other issue. Next shot in three months time.  I'm taking low dose (100mg) Asprin following surgery a while ago so that will mitigate potential blood clot issues.



dk why people would get a second jab, when we're  not seeing the virus at all around us


----------



## grah33 (29 June 2021)

bellenuit said:


> But not nearly as dangerous as not taking vaccines during a pandemic. The stats prove it.



U reckon?  Some points from the mRNA inventor:
their technical databases aren't available to truly know so he can't say, but possibly not better off taking the vaccine is implied
vaccines are experimental
he stresses that younger people should definitely not be taking it



from that clip (but there is more) , it would seem detrimental .    he's also censored a fair bit

really don't know why some are eager for a second jab


----------



## grah33 (29 June 2021)

some Clive Palmer ... 



COVID-19 VACCINE – 210 deaths, 24,000 adverse reactions. When will they stop?​Men and Women of Australia,
I feel duty-bound to bring the following to your attention.
The Australian Government’s Therapeutic Goods Administration report confirms *210 deaths* and *24,000 adverse reactions after the COVID-19 vaccines.* There are over 5,000 deaths in the USA attributed to the Covid Vaccines including Pfizer.
While I support the use of vaccines that have approval for general use, I am very concerned by the use of this vaccine on the general population.
My understanding is that emergency use of a medicine is only authorised in the US if the person receiving the treatment is in immediate danger of dying. This is not the case with millions of Australians who are not ill. The simple fact is that *we don’t have one-year safety data, three-year safety data, or five-year safety data *for the use of the COVID-19 vaccine on humans or animals. *Over 50% of animals in the animal trials have died.*
I do not understand why it is that millions of Australians should be subject to a medical treatment that has not complied with normal practices.
There is no pandemic in Australia – only one person has died of COVID in 2021. The TGA and the government have spread misleading information designed to create fear in the population. TheCenter for Disease Control website in the United States confirms the following effects that their vaccine program has had using the same vaccines that the TGA has approved in Australia – over5,000 deaths, 3,900 disabled, 571 miscarriages, 1,500 Bell’s Palsy, and 1,900 heart attacks.
The Governments around Australia have done a great job in protecting all Australians from COVID-19 and for healthy Australians to receive such a treatment is, as I understand it, unprecedented.
I don’t understand why Australians need to rush or take risks with their lives.
And I don’t understand why the Australian Government has granted the pharmaceutical companies a complete indemnity should their COVID-19 vaccines cause illness or death. It would appear that these pharmaceutical companies lack confidence in their own products, which makes them ask for such an indemnity. No one will be successful in court if the government has indemnified the pharmaceutical companies.
We need to maintain the very high standards Australia has set for itself in the approvals of vaccines.
The COVID 19 Vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting COVID and it doesn’t stop you from passing it on. Does it serve any real purpose?

For the TGA report and more information go to: thetruthaboutcovidvaccines.com

God bless Australia, Clive Palmer


----------



## grah33 (29 June 2021)

phizer x VP:








						Former Pfizer VP answers Reuters 'fact checker': 'A pack of lies' - America's Frontline Doctors
					

Former Pfizer Vice President and Chief Science Officer Michael Yeadon today told America's Frontline Doctors (AFLDS) that a Reuters "fact checker" article calling his statements "misinformation" is "a mixture of straw men and sheer invention," saying the Reuters article was "well worth...




					americasfrontlinedoctors.org
				





(variants are political scariants, asymptotic nonsense,  other falsehood)


----------



## rederob (30 June 2021)

grah33 said:


> some Clive Palmer ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@grah33 should be rewarded for bringing us the truth.
I don't know if he ever will, as the dribble he has posted above deserves condemnation.
At least we know why some people refuse to accept and act on health advice from health professionals, and prefer instead to put the rest of the community in potential harm due to their wilful ignorance.


----------



## rederob (30 June 2021)

The below snapshot of rate of vaccine rollout rates across the world still sees Australia sitting below the global average:





This article exposes the litany of bungles and lost opportunity we suffer under our most inept PM in living memory.


----------



## grah33 (30 June 2021)

rederob said:


> @grah33 should be rewarded for bringing us the truth.
> I don't know if he ever will, as the dribble he has posted above deserves condemnation.
> At least we know why some people refuse to accept and act on health advice from health professionals, and prefer instead to put the rest of the community in potential harm due to their wilful ignorance.



i'm not talking about Americas frontline doctors  but the Phizer guy.  he's quoted not just by them but all over the place.
The x Phizer  VP and the inventor of mRNA technologies are health experts.

I'm surprised you have so much trust in these experimental vaccines.  A   "Mob rules" government may soon try to force it on us


----------



## Knobby22 (30 June 2021)

grah33 said:


> i'm not talking about Americas frontline doctors  but the Phizer guy.  he's quoted not just by them but all over the place.
> The x Phizer  VP and the inventor of mRNA technologies are health experts.
> 
> I'm surprised you have so much trust in these experimental vaccines.  A   "Mob rules" government may soon try to force it on us I am sure no one will force you to have.



You don't have to have it.
If you want to catch Covid and risk it, its your call. Because we will reopen the economy which is looking like June next year. Fortress Australia has to end. The sooner the better. No lockdowns anymore.

Firstly though, we know in that famous NSW party that all members caught it except the vaccinated ones.

Secondly, a warning.  A colleague at my work's Dads best friend caught covid and died of a stroke caused by a blood clot to the brain two weeks later a few days after leaving hospital. This is a known effect.

In his early 60s, fit, no health problems. Not even sure he appeared in the covid stats.  Its your call. But I don't want to hear you whinge on this site later saying you weren't warned should you find yourself paralysed on one side or with permanent lung damage.









						COVID-19 blood clots & stroke risk • HRI
					

There is mounting evidence COVID-19 causes abnormalities in blood clotting, which can cause heart attacks and stroke.




					www.hri.org.au
				











						Lifelong Lung Damage: A Serious COVID-19 Complication
					

Severe cases of COVID-19 can cause lasting damage to the lungs that may necessitate surgery or even organ transplants.




					www.healthline.com


----------



## basilio (30 June 2021)

Clive Palmers poisonous lies re the COVID vaccines  have been methodically demolished on a number of platforms.









						Debunking COVID-19 vaccine death claims promoted by Clive Palmer
					

Fact Check examines the claim that earned the Queensland businessman and politician a rebuke this week from the Therapeutic Goods Administration.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (30 June 2021)

Mike  Yeadon ex Pfizer VP,  is the pin up hero of Anti Vaxxers around the world.
And his stories on COVID are just slightly more sophisticated  than Clive Palmers outright dribble









						Debunked: Claims by an ex-Pfizer employee about Covid-19 and vaccines are false and misleading
					

Mike Yeadon is regularly cited by anti-lockdown groups.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2021)

It a bit of a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. 🤣
Everyone has an opinion, but only one gets to wear the outcome. When something goes wrong Scomo wears it, when Scomo makes an executive decision, the States tell him to sod off.
There are a lot of contradictions going on.
It will be really interesting, if they find out there are long term issues with nRNA vaccines as opposed to the AZ, that would put a cat among the pigeons IMO.










						PM facing states rebellion on AstraZeneca for under-40s
					

The Queensland and WA premiers speak out against advice issued by Prime Minister Scott Morrison, saying they do not believe the under-40s should be given the AstraZeneca vaccine.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk and WA Premier Mark McGowan have both spoken out against advice issued by Prime Minister Scott Morrison, saying they do not believe the under-40s should be given the AstraZeneca vaccine.









						Australia’s top medical body refuses to endorse PM’s announcement that under-40s can get AstraZeneca
					

Exclusive: AMA says Scott Morrison’s announcement about younger people getting AZ Covid jab goes against advice from vaccine safety body




					www.theguardian.com
				



From the article:
The president of the Australian Medical Association, Dr Omar Khorshid, says he does not endorse the prime minister’s announcement that anyone under 40 can receive the AstraZeneca vaccine from their GP, adding it took him by surprise.









						Covid-19: AstraZeneca vaccine is approved in EU with no upper age limit
					

The European Medicines Agency authorised Astra Zeneca’s SARS-CoV-2 vaccine for use in all adults aged over 18 on 29 January, just days after German newspapers suggested that the vaccine would be limited to adults aged under 65 because of poor efficacy in older people.  The EMA’s Committee for...




					www.bmj.com
				



From the article:
The European Medicines Agency authorised Astra Zeneca’s SARS-CoV-2 vaccine for use in all adults aged over 18 on 29 January, just days after German newspapers suggested that the vaccine would be limited to adults aged under 65 because of poor efficacy in older people.

The EMA’s Committee for Medicinal Products for Human Use announced that the AstraZeneca and Oxford University vaccine was safe and effective at preventing infection in people from 18 years of age, on the basis of data from four clinical trials conducted in the UK, Brazil, and South Africa. The two doses can be given between four and 12 weeks apart.

The vaccine’s safety was shown in all four studies, which included around 24 000 people, but the efficacy decision was based on results from only two of the trials. Results from two others were excluded because each had fewer than six cases of covid-19.


----------



## basilio (30 June 2021)

I have to say  I'm pretty horrified at the  argument of the Chief Health Officer in Queensland regarding the the Astra Zeneca vaccine for younger people.

_We always follow the advice of the chief health officer. We follow the medical advice and the medical advice is very clear … under 40s should be offered alternatives to AstraZenica vaccine.

In response to questions, Young said: “I do not want under 40s to get AstraZeneca”. (This is Chief Health Officer Dr Jeanette Young) 

“I don’t want an 18-year-old in Queensland dying from a clotting illness who, if they got Covid, probably wouldn’t die. We’ve had very few deaths due to Covid-19 in Australia in people under the age of 50, and wouldn’t it be terrible that our first 18- year-old in Queensland to who dies related to this pandemic died because of the vaccine.” _









						‘Corporate mates’: Queensland lashes exemptions for business travellers amid Covid outbreak
					

Commonwealth says international travel claim is a ‘smokescreen to hide the ineffectiveness’ of state quarantine system




					www.theguardian.com
				



My issues with the argument are :

1) The  blood clot risks associated with the Astra jab are real but very small. However there have been many deaths and serious illness suffered by younger people having COVID when the disease gets out of hand overseas. The fact that very few  younger people have died in Australia to date has no bearing on the effect of a mass outbreak which could easily happen if the Delta variant gets away.

2) The vaccination of many more people is a way to slow/limit the spread of COVID across the whole community. So effectively allowing hundreds of thousands of people to become vaccinated protects them* and many others as well.*

3) *The use of a hypothetical 18 year being the first to die in the pandemic as a result of a vaccine wantonly undermines public confidence in the need to be vaccinated if we are to protect the whole community*. Frankly I can see her words being echoed across every anti-vaxxer rag in the country. The medical community appreciates risks and risk management.  Every drug, every procedure, every intervention or non intervention carries risks. To reduce the question of using the Astra Zeneca vaccine to the possibility that a poor 18 year *might just possibly *become the first COVID victim to die and only because of the vaccine is unconscionable  and destroys the principle of risk management.

In a better situation I can understand why younger people should be getting the Pfizer jab.  But right now we have xxxx all Pfizer vaccines, a large supply of AstroZeneca and a grave risk of an out of control Delta fueled COVID outbreak. And this is an environment with an extremely low vaccinated population. 
*
I can only agree with Scott Morrison again. * AstraZeneca is not perfect. But it will protect hundreds of thousands of people who are otherwise at risk and if infected will spread the disease to any even riskier community.


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## grah33 (30 June 2021)

basilio said:


> Mike  Yeadon ex Pfizer VP,  is the pin up hero of Anti Vaxxers around the world.
> And his stories on COVID are just slightly more sophisticated  than Clive Palmers outright dribble
> 
> 
> ...




slightly more sophisticated?   he's a virology guy who knows way more.  

regs the debunking,  that's going back and forth.  check out the twitter page of the inventor of mRNA technology . he falsifies fact  checkers  who speak nonsense against him.


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## grah33 (30 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> You don't have to have it.
> If you want to catch Covid and risk it, its your call. Because we will reopen the economy which is looking like June next year. Fortress Australia has to end. The sooner the better. No lockdowns anymore.
> 
> Firstly though, we know in that famous NSW party that all members caught it except the vaccinated ones.
> ...





many reports of people getting it who have taken the vaccine.  vaccines don't work like this.

i have investigated 2 people overseas who got it. all recovered. no prob at all. one was just recently infected.

also, report of an old man who got the vaccine, and a little later, at the shopping centre here, he dropped to the ground . was terrible


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## grah33 (30 June 2021)

still learning, but apparently they had a global meeting a few months b4 the pandemic.  were rehearsing what they'd do (role play) , and now this has happened.  is it really a coincidence?  remember the 'weapons of mass destruction' lie.  might be the same thing here


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## sptrawler (30 June 2021)

basilio said:


> I have to say  I'm pretty horrified at the  argument of the Chief Health Officer in Queensland regarding the the Astra Zeneca vaccine for younger people.
> 
> _We always follow the advice of the chief health officer. We follow the medical advice and the medical advice is very clear … under 40s should be offered alternatives to AstraZenica vaccine.
> 
> ...



Spot on Bas, it isn't as though Morrison is saying younger people have to have it, he is just saying that if they want it and have a discussion with their doctor they can have it.
Which makes sense if there is a supply problem with the Pfizer vaccine, some people want to be vaccinated, it should be their choice.
Now we have NSW saying they can't have it, even if they want it, yet it will be Morrison who is blamed for the slow roll out.









						‘A personal choice’: NSW clinics will not give AstraZeneca to under-40s
					

This comes after Prime Minister Scott Morrison said anyone could receive AstraZeneca at a GP clinic despite vaccine advisory group ATAGI recommending Pfizer as the preferred shot for under-60s.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
NSW authorities have held firm on health advice regarding the COVID-19 vaccine, saying the state’s vaccine clinics will not administer AstraZeneca to under-40s.
Chief Health Officer Kerry Chant said on Wednesday that state-run clinics, including the mass vaccination centre at Sydney Olympic Park, would not change their protocol.


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## rederob (30 June 2021)

grah33 said:


> slightly more sophisticated?   he's a virology guy who knows way more.
> 
> regs the debunking,  that's going back and forth.  check out the twitter page of the inventor of mRNA technology . he falsifies fact  checkers  who speak nonsense against him.



If you want to claim something that has a basis in science then offer the evidence supporting it.
The available evidence suggests you are promoting nonsense.
Also, Yeadon is not a *virologist.*


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## IFocus (1 July 2021)

The medical advice is don't give AZ to those below 60, as people are not dying in Aus from COVID run away (yet) then the risk from AZ would out weigh the risk of getting COVID.

Problem is there is not enough Pfizer with the current out break and every state politician calling for more vaccinations. What does Morrison do to solve the problem? Dumps it into the GP's hands to vaccinate and take the heat when peoples keel over from blood clots.   

The UK has seen 10's thousands die of COVID with 49 deaths attributed to AZ clearly the risk of AZ is worth it.

Not saying don't vaccinate, but if I was under say 50 in Australia right now given 12 weeks between AZ shots I would be waiting for Pfizer same as Morrison had.

Note McGowan and his health minister in WA had AZ.


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## rederob (1 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on Bas, it isn't as though Morrison is saying younger people have to have it, he is just saying that if they want it and have a discussion with their doctor they can have it.
> Which makes sense if there is a supply problem with the Pfizer vaccine, some people want to be vaccinated, it should be their choice.
> Now we have NSW saying they can't have it, even if they want it, yet it will be Morrison who is blamed for the slow roll out.



*There is a good reason the health experts won't promote using a drug on young people that is known to cause blood clots and death:*





Armed with this data if I were a doctor I could not recommend a drug known to have a chance of causing death as a side effect when there *is *a current alternative that is *not *as problematic for young people.  
Moreover, if I were a young person and took all reasonable health measures then waiting a few more months for Pfizer or Moderna would not be a big deal.   As it is, we in Australia will need to actively maintain reasonable measures well into 2022 because we simply do not have enough vaccines.  Most of us have already had to wait a long time before either being able to get or becoming eligible for vaccination.
While true that increased rates of immunisation will progressively lead to lesser rates of hospitalisation, we in Australia have successfully stalled widescale spread on numerous occasions.  In that light there is considerable logic to health advice that proposes a slower rollout of a less deadly vaccine rather than *now *risking the life of young people to achieve conceptual herd immunity only marginally faster.


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## basilio (1 July 2021)

rederob said:


> *There is a good reason the health experts won't promote using a drug on young people that is known to cause blood clots and death:*
> View attachment 126871
> 
> Armed with this data if I were a doctor I could not recommend a drug known to have a chance of causing death as a side effect when there *is *a current alternative that is *not *as problematic for young people.
> ...




Redrob if all else was equal I would agree with your analysis.  But I think the current circumstances and the evidence from overseas experience with delta COVID should be incorporated in the picture.

The  aggressive way the new  delta COVID has spread overseas *undermines the validity of using last years  figures which were focused on people in aged care facilities as primary causalities.* That just isn't the case at the moment.

So if delta COVID gets away  many. many more younger people will get it, fall sick and pass it on. The death rate we can't be sure about but there will many very sick people and a significant number who end up with long COVID.  So the question of balancing  these poor outcomes with a small number of poor outcomes with vaccination via Astra Zectra becomes re weighted .

I also repeat the point that if more people are vaccinated there is better chance to reduce person to person transmission.

I believe there would many many people under 40 who would recognise the risk balance between getting an Astra Jab now that will offer protection against COVID vs waiting an indefinite time for what seems to be slightly safer alternative. Lets remember there are also other known health side effects with Pfizer.

If difficult situations the saying "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. " is worth remembering.

_Dr Blyth, who has been a member of ATAGI since 2009, was questioned about whether the risks associated with the AstraZeneca vaccine were overblown considering other common pharmaceuticals carry an even greater chance of blood clotting.

"Importantly, that is what people have to do every day — some people may choose to take that risk, other people may elect not to and wait for an alternative product," he said._



> _"These are always tricky decisions as far as an individual's risk, and people need to be aware of those numbers so they can make an informed decision for themselves."_



_*The decision to allow Australians under the age of 40 to elect to get the AstraZeneca vaccine has been welcomed by some members of the community, who feared they would have to wait many more months before getting access to a vaccine.*_

*AstraZeneca is produced in Australia, with hundreds of thousands of doses rolling off the production line at Melbourne's CSL plant each week.

Supplies of Pfizer remain tight, given all doses need to be imported from overseas.*









						Very few situations where under-40s should get AstraZeneca, ATAGI chair says
					

Despite Prime Minister Scott Morrison saying Australians under 40 are welcome to ask their GP about getting the AstraZeneca shot, the co-chair of the advisory body on vaccines says the number of "situations where that would be warranted … are quite small".




					www.abc.net.au
				












						Rare heart inflammation could be linked to mRNA vaccines, research shows
					

Rare cases of heart inflammation could be linked to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, according to new research, but medical experts say the risk of the conditions is still far lower than the risks of serious illness or death from contracting COVID-19.




					www.abc.net.au


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## moXJO (1 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Redrob if all else was equal I would agree with your analysis.  But I think the current circumstances and the evidence from overseas experience with delta COVID should be incorporated in the picture.
> 
> The  aggressive way the new  delta COVID has spread overseas *undermines the validity of using last years  figures which were focused on people in aged care facilities as primary causalities.* That just isn't the case at the moment.
> 
> ...



I agree.
It also means getting back to normal faster.
The mental health impacts on young people because of lockdowns is a concern. 
Then the cost savings to the economy.

 Either way we will be lucky to get out of this with zero deaths


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## rederob (1 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Redrob if all else was equal I would agree with your analysis.  But I think the current circumstances and the evidence from overseas experience with delta COVID should be incorporated in the picture.



I am strongly pro vaccination, but with properly balanced risk.
I won't link to it as it's not yet peer reviewed to my knowledge, but even Pfizer and Moderna are now being closely examined for side effects which are heart related, although I am not aware of attribution of subsequent deaths.  The point being, lots of things we voluntarily add to our bodies can cause harm (sugar being one of the very worst on mass consumption).
I don't doubt the delta strain of SARS-CoV-2 is highly infectious, but my personal view is that until we reach high rates of full vaccination we must maintain very strong counter measures to infection irrespective of anyone's vaccination status. 
If everything got bad here in a matter of weeks then the relatively small extra numbers of PM-proposed young people AZ vaccinations would not make a meaningful difference.  The full benefits of vaccination come after a second dose, and the proven science shows that waiting as many months as possible for that second dose generates the strongest antibody/t-cell response.
Currently the data shows Australia's vaccination rates as near the world average, which is rather pathetic given the number of advanced nations that have run at twice our rate for a considerable time.

I am not suggesting that people with "choice" as option should not be allowed to exercise that choice.  I am not offered that choice, however, as for me right now its AZ or nothing!  Which is fine, as even if I were younger I would not be in a hurry to take AZ based on available evidence.
What I am saying is right now I don't believe the circumstances warrant young people choosing AZ when the time delay to a safer option would be unlikely to materially affect the spread of the delta strain in the interim.


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## bellenuit (1 July 2021)

From another forum. I don't have the source, but I would think it is easily verifiable.

_Vaccinated health workers at West Hoxton birthday party didn't contract COVID-19, NSW Health reveals_​

_
The highly contagious Delta strain of COVID-19 infected everyone who attended a Sydney birthday party except for the six people who were vaccinated, the NSW Government said._
_Key points:_​
_Over 2,100,000 people in NSW have received a vaccination_
_The health workers at the West Hoxton party were fully vaccinated and did not contract the virus_
_The Premier declined introducing "incentives" for vaccinations, calling them "unfair"_
_The West Hoxton party — described as a "super spreader" event — has become one of the most significant transmission events in the NSW breakout with 24 of the 30 attendees, and many of their household contacts, all testing positive for COVID-19.
The virus would have had a near 100 per cent transmission rate were it not for six people who attended the party who had already received a jab.
"To emphasise just how important vaccinations are … not one of those 24 people were vaccinated," NSW Health Minister Brad Hazzard said on Monday.
"I can also advise that six health workers who attended the party, who were fully vaccinated, not one of those people has been infected."_


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## sptrawler (2 July 2021)

Apparently there is a greater chance of getting the clotting syndrome, from the contraceptive pill, but I guess everyone would be up in arms if they banned that.lol
Just another media and muppet road show.


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## grah33 (2 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Firstly though, we know in that famous NSW party that all members caught it except the vaccinated ones.



yet all were healthy in the end, i've been told

and today's TV news : person was vaccinated but still  got it


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## grah33 (2 July 2021)

Morrison's plan (today's news) : eventually only those vaccinated  will not have to endure lock downs.  seems to be going to script . we're losing our freedom.


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## wayneL (2 July 2021)

grah33 said:


> Morrison's plan (today's news) : eventually only those vaccinated  will not have to endure lock downs.  seems to be going to script . we're losing our freedom.



And "we" are letting it happen. I wish the complicit would wake the f*** up.


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## bellenuit (2 July 2021)

Yea. Soon they will not be allowed to smoke in our cars if there are kids there. What next? We must also fit our cars with brakes?

The people of India are really sympathetic to our plight.


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## wayneL (2 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Yea. Soon they will not be allowed to smoke in our cars if there are kids there. What next? We must also fit our cars with brakes?
> 
> The people of India are really sympathetic to our plight.



Yeah, actually, with the risk of driving we should not be doing that. Ban cars.

While we are at it:
Ban cigarettes altogether, alcohol, trans fats, sugar, risky sports, marriage(DV you see), war, all administration of medicines (medical misadventure you see), old age.

F0ck it, let's ban the leading cause of death... birth.

FFS


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## basilio (2 July 2021)

Don't worry.  The good folks of Bowral organic store   are turning  the tables and won't let the vaccinators get away with their perfidy.


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## wayneL (2 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Don't worry.  The good folks of Bowral organic store   are turning  the tables and won't let the vaccinators get away with their perfidy.
> 
> View attachment 126975



Yep, very professional policing there.


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## bellenuit (2 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Yeah, actually, with the risk of driving we should not be doing that. Ban cars.
> 
> While we are at it:
> Ban cigarettes altogether, alcohol, trans fats, sugar, risky sports, marriage(DV you see), war, all administration of medicines (medical misadventure you see), old age.
> ...



Should we ban smoking in cars when there are children in the car?


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## wayneL (2 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Should we ban smoking in cars when there are children in the car?



I'm not sure where I sit ideologically on that point, (and I think it is somewhat irrelevant to this thread) but I certainly think it would be irresponsible for an adult to smoke when there are children in the car.

And believe you me, I am a victim of it.

However if you are trying to draw some sort of parallel with mask mandates, you are so far off the mark that it's laughable. Please acquaint yourself with the available science with reference to the types of masks that are in common use.


----------



## rederob (2 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> I'm not sure where I sit ideologically on that point, (and I think it is somewhat irrelevant to this thread) but I certainly think it would be irresponsible for an adult to smoke when there are children in the car.



How is a health initiative irrelevant?
Mask mandates are implemented in most States/Territories under Health legislation.


wayneL said:


> However if you are trying to draw some sort of parallel with mask mandates, you are so far off the mark that it's laughable. Please acquaint yourself with the available science with reference to the types of masks that are in common use.



Here's some of the unequivocal science on masks:


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## bellenuit (2 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Please acquaint yourself with the available science with reference to the types of masks that are in common use.




The thing is there are several versions of the science and one tends to believe the version that aligns most with one's ideology.

Not being a scientist in that field myself, I will accept the opinions of the vast majority of experts in the field that are advising the governments, such as groups like the CDC. Why? Because they have been right on most other things related to virology, such as the effectiveness of vaccines in combating the many viruses and diseases that have been prevalent for the last few hundred years and are now almost entirely eradicated. 

On the other hand the "alternative" science versions seem to be the preserve of those who have been wrong on everything this last century. Not just the anti-vaxxers, but also many of the other conspiratorial nutcases who seem to embrace ideas such as a flat earth, chemtrails or some freakish religion. 

If someone, whether a genuine scientists or not, espouses some idea that goes against the mainstream science (not in itself a bad thing), somehow all of these groups immediately regurgitate that as right and the mainstream must be wrong, even though few have the expertise to make that evaluation. 

The best we as laymen can do is observe and see what makes sense. We have seen COVID infections fall in line with mask wearing and social distancing and falling dramatically with the introduction of the vaccines. Where mask wearing and social distancing guidelines have been relaxed too soon, there has been a reversal. That is good enough evidence for me.

Our governments have to make decisions based on the best advice they has been given (not that they always do). The vast majority, except for those before mentioned groups, believe that they are making the right decisions, notwithstanding their chaotic roll-out of AZ. When they impose restrictions on us that are based on the recommendations they have received, then I trust that they are acting in our best interests. When it comes to national health in the midst of the worst pandemic of the last century, then we cannot expect to have the right to act contrary to the restrictions imposed just because we have been influenced by some website or other that we are reading.

It's a minor inconvenience considering the gravity of the situation as experienced overseas by those who didn't act appropriately. But most of all, we all know these are temporary inconveniences that will be relaxed when the recommendations allow it. The constant whining of losing ones freedom is just a heap of bollocks.


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## wayneL (2 July 2021)

1/ Nonsense, there is no science that shows any more than very marginal efficacy of the five cent asks that the average sheeple wears. there is science showing the efficacy of different types of masks but also the science shows that in common usage the efficacy of such masks are rendered virtually useless unless the same protocols that surgeons use are employed.

2/ One need not be a scientist to be able to discern bull****, even if one doesn't need to be able to learn how to read scientific literature.

As I have outlined often on this forum, I have been an avid consumer of science in the fields of equine exercise physiology, equine nutrition and equine distal biomechanics.

At least 90% of the papers are pure bilge, absolute nonsense that are ludicrously easy to discredit.

I would hazard a guess that it is the same in most fields. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that that is how science operates, sorting the chaff from the chatter via scientific process, post peer review... falsification, reputation and whatnot.

The takeaway message is that most science is crap.

3/ Our best interests? at this stage of the game I'm not prepared to give our politicians the benefit of the doubt on this point. It's a complicated point which requires somewha of a treatise and I don't have the time or inclination to do that here and now.

However as a very anecdotal point and to return to the point of my post above, the police appear to be acting in the interests of those other than the general public IMNSVHO.... And once again I have some personal experience on that point which I am only prepared to divulge to anyone in person.

NB apologies for any autocorrect weirdness


----------



## Knobby22 (2 July 2021)

grah33 said:


> yet all were healthy in the end, i've been told
> 
> and today's TV news : person was vaccinated but still  got it



Out of less than 190 cases, two are in ICU. If you get vaccinated and still catch you get it milder. UK stats tell the story.


----------



## Knobby22 (2 July 2021)

Just a question? Any Sydney siders here? Are people taking the lockdown seriously? Community cases are going up, this lockdown doesn't look like ending soon.

Ps. Apologies wrong info previous post, 172 cases in NSW, three in ICU, none on ventilators.


----------



## Ferret (2 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Just a question? Any Sydney siders here? Are people taking the lockdown seriously? Community cases are going up, this lockdown doesn't look like ending soon.



Things had become very lax before this outbreak.  Mask wearing was not required and generally not done.  Checking in at venues was often ignored.

Both of these are being observed now, but it seems although people are to stay home except for food shopping, getting vaccinated, exercise etc, the roads are still busy and many people are still out and about.  Walking paths around my way are crazy busy.

The last few days around 50% of the people testing positive have been out and about in the community while infected.  I think we have some way to go before this outbreak is contained.


----------



## grah33 (3 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> And "we" are letting it happen. I wish the complicit would wake the f*** up.




Venting your anger like this won't help you.  Our left wing friends may find themselves ill-equipped to cope with any future distress later on, should it come.


----------



## rederob (3 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> 1/ Nonsense, there is no science that shows any more than very marginal efficacy of the five cent asks that the average sheeple wears. there is science showing the efficacy of different types of masks but also the science shows that in common usage the efficacy of such masks are rendered virtually useless unless the same protocols that surgeons use are employed.



Completely false claim - I included 2 examples at post #496


wayneL said:


> 2/ One need not be a scientist to be able to discern bull****, even if one doesn't need to be able to learn how to read scientific literature.



True - I showed a basic chart, and the links I referenced have more graphics to prove the point that most masks are effective.


wayneL said:


> The takeaway message is that most science is crap.



Your anecdote does not trump what science achieves for society.


wayneL said:


> 3/ Our best interests? at this stage of the game I'm not prepared to give our politicians the benefit of the doubt on this point. It's a complicated point which requires somewha of a treatise and I don't have the time or inclination to do that here and now.



You only needed to revisit the UK and American experiences to see what happened in first world countries with what were assessed as the 2 countries best equipped to combat a pandemic.  Again, real world experience suggests your opinions are not well founded.


wayneL said:


> However as a very anecdotal point and to return to the point of my post above, the police appear to be acting in the interests of those other than the general public IMNSVHO.... And once again I have some personal experience on that point which I am only prepared to divulge to anyone in person.



Another personal opinion from you that would run counter to the vast majority of our population who willingly comply with health orders.  I personally think the Bowral shop owners deserve utter contempt and exemplify the worst behaviours that take place when we *all *need to play our part.


----------



## Humid (3 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> I'm not sure where I sit ideologically on that point, (and I think it is somewhat irrelevant to this thread) but I certainly think it would be irresponsible for an adult to smoke when there are children in the car.
> 
> And believe you me, I am a victim of it.
> 
> However if you are trying to draw some sort of parallel with mask mandates, you are so far off the mark that it's laughable. Please acquaint yourself with the available science with reference to the types of masks that are in common use.



Its illegal in WA


----------



## Knobby22 (3 July 2021)

Ferret said:


> Things had become very lax before this outbreak.  Mask wearing was not required and generally not done.  Checking in at venues was often ignored.
> 
> Both of these are being observed now, but it seems although people are to stay home except for food shopping, getting vaccinated, exercise etc, the roads are still busy and many people are still out and about.  Walking paths around my way are crazy busy.
> 
> The last few days around 50% of the people testing positive have been out and about in the community while infected.  I think we have some way to go before this outbreak is contained.



Thanks Ferret.
As we have found in Melbourne it only takes one or two nuff nuffs to extend the lockdown by a week or two.

I honestly think they don't care about the small business owners. Just selfish.


----------



## Belli (3 July 2021)

I found the YouTube vids by Dr John Campbell and a number of his guests very informative.  He was a nurse educator (PhD hence the title doctor).  Not to everyone's taste apparently but that always seems to be the case.

Here is one vid with Dr Susan Oliver from UNSW.


----------



## moXJO (3 July 2021)

I'm hearing this delta version is basically the sniffles compared to the original. It's more contagious but less lethal.


----------



## bellenuit (4 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm hearing this delta version is basically the sniffles compared to the original. It's more contagious but less lethal.




That seems to be the consensus opinion. But that is something that wasn't originally known, but only came to light over time, as the outcome of infections were analysed. They had to err on the cautious side initially, so hopefully they will lighten up on restrictions with this knowledge.

One issue though is that if serious side effects are 1/3 of what was the case with the original, but it is 3 times more contagious, how should one react? My 1/3 and 3 figures are just hypothetical, but you get the drift.


----------



## Knobby22 (4 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm hearing this delta version is basically the sniffles compared to the original. It's more contagious but less lethal.



I haven't heard that about delta.

There's 5 people in ICU from less than 200 cases in NSW. And this is the version that killed those two Australian Indians in their 40s that went back to look after their sick parents in India.


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## IFocus (4 July 2021)

Does that meant more get Delta but the same over all number die?


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## moXJO (4 July 2021)

The strain is more contagious but it's apparently weakening in its ability to cause fatalities. Think SARS or some of the previous flu's going around. Not only that but we should be able to catch the weaker version and get better immunity rather than getting an experimental shot.

 Don't take it as gospel though as I only briefly skimmed past credentials.
This is not advise to skip the vaccination.


----------



## moXJO (4 July 2021)

From abc
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-02/delta-coronavirus-variant-symptoms-vaccines-spread/100255804

But with Delta, a headache is the most common symptom, followed by a sore throat, runny nose and fever.

"We have the first data from a study in the UK called ZOE where people self-report their symptoms," Professor Turville said.

"It has found those severe disease symptoms with a loss of smell and shortness of breath, those symptoms have become less common.

"Instead people have symptoms more like the common cold such as a runny nose, sore throat. Unvaccinated people tended to report having a fever.

"So this does look promising and it does look to track a lower severity with the Delta variant."


----------



## bellenuit (4 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Not only that but we should be able to catch the weaker version and get better immunity rather than getting an experimental shot.




There I disagree with you. Apart from the fact the shots aren't experimental (mainly Russian promoted fear mongering), what you are proposing would be greatly experimental. The Delta version may be a weaker, but more contagious version, but like how the original morphed into the Delta version and some other variants, the Delta version could morph into some far deadlier. And if this new variant morphed from the Delta variant is both deadlier and more contagious, then we are in real trouble, particularly if our current vaccines prove ineffective against it.

The likelyhood of a virus morphing into another strain is proportional to the number of people infected. So by letting the Delta variant run rampant we are creating the conditions that could very well cause a potentially catastrophic variant to emerge. That is a very risky experiment. Better to continue promoting vaccinations that stop existing variants transmitting.


----------



## moXJO (4 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> There I disagree with you. Apart from the fact the shots aren't experimental (mainly Russian promoted fear mongering), what you are proposing would be greatly experimental. The Delta version may be a weaker, but more contagious version, but like how the original morphed into the Delta version and some other variants, the Delta version could morph into some far deadlier. And if this new variant morphed from the Delta variant is both deadlier and more contagious, then we are in real trouble, particularly if our current vaccines prove ineffective against it.
> 
> The likelyhood of a virus morphing into another strain is proportional to the number of people infected. So by letting the Delta variant run rampant we are creating the conditions that could very well cause a potentially catastrophic variant to emerge. That is a very risky experiment. Better to continue promoting vaccinations that stop existing variants transmitting.



No the shots may not do anything to the newer strains as there was something to do with bypassing the immune response. Plus you still get the virus. If its going to morph it will be in 3rd world.

I probably could have chosen a better word. But honestly reading through some of this stuff leads me to believe they are unsure about a lot. The media is also on a bs bender.

From 60+ I would absolutely advise to get vaccinated though. I'm still getting vaccination end of  this month.


----------



## bellenuit (4 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> The likelyhood of a virus morphing into another strain is proportional to the number of people infected. So by letting the Delta variant run rampant we are creating the conditions that could very well cause a potentially catastrophic variant to emerge. That is a very risky experiment. Better to continue promoting vaccinations that stop existing variants transmitting.



Unvaccinated people are 'variant factories,' infectious diseases expert says​








						Unvaccinated people are 'variant factories,' infectious diseases expert says
					

Unvaccinated people do more than merely risk their own health. They're also a risk to everyone if they become infected with coronavirus, infectious disease specialists say.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## basilio (5 July 2021)

Grim snapshot of what is happening. The issue of unvaccinated people becoming "variant factories"  is well and truly on the table.









						Latest news from around the world | The Guardian
					

Latest World news news, comment and analysis from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SirRumpole (5 July 2021)

rederob said:


> I am strongly pro vaccination, but with properly balanced risk.
> I won't link to it as it's not yet peer reviewed to my knowledge, but even Pfizer and Moderna are now being closely examined for side effects which are heart related, although I am not aware of attribution of subsequent deaths.  The point being, lots of things we voluntarily add to our bodies can cause harm (sugar being one of the very worst on mass consumption).
> I don't doubt the delta strain of SARS-CoV-2 is highly infectious, but my personal view is that until we reach high rates of full vaccination we must maintain very strong counter measures to infection irrespective of anyone's vaccination status.
> If everything got bad here in a matter of weeks then the relatively small extra numbers of PM-proposed young people AZ vaccinations would not make a meaningful difference.  The full benefits of vaccination come after a second dose, and the proven science shows that waiting as many months as possible for that second dose generates the strongest antibody/t-cell response.
> ...




If the government chooses to tell people under 40 that its ok to take AZ after medical advice, and cover MD's for indemnity against legal cases, then it must start a compensation scheme for patients who are adversley affected by taking AZ.

MD's lives are not at risk, so why indemnify them and not compensate patients whose lives are adversely affected by a government sponsored vaccine ?

If the risks are so low it won't cost much money and will promote increased vaccination confidence.


----------



## moXJO (5 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Unvaccinated people are 'variant factories,' infectious diseases expert says​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cnn and guardian are trash factories. They often come up with vague points.But the gist is valid.

 However only one dose of vaccine can mutate the virus.

It will be rendered useless if virus mutates enough (it won't mutate here).

Then we have all the dodge vaccines in other countries probably making it worse. And possibly rendering current vaccines useless.
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

Priority vaccination of those 60+ or those already with health issues. As that seems to be the sector that will record fatalities.


But it would be nice to see the figures. If strains are indeed weakening. Sars, avian flu, pig flu, Mars all got weaker in lethality over time without mass vaccines. And they must have mutated lots over time.

I suppose the risk is a fast spreading highly deadly strain gaining traction.

I'm open to the vaccine and I trust the medical profession about as far as I can throw them. There must be huge money being made in this. I'd love to scratch around a few of these names and see who is funding who.

But for now for now the vaccine still makes sense:

Still stops you from severe hospitalisation.

Protects family to a degree.

Stops wasted downtime from being sick.

Can walk around like king sht and let people cough on you. Also knowing you can cough on other people and send them for a trip to hospital.

Can point at unvaccinated people like social lepers.

Can push in line saying "it's ok I'm vaccinated".

Can call police on unvaccinated neighbours.

Can help setup the unvaccinated government concentration camps in Vic, qld, wa at above award rates.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Can help setup the unvaccinated government concentration camps in Vic, qld, wa at above award rates.



 It would only be short term, just release the virus into the camp then after 3 weeks everyone who survived is free to go. 😉


----------



## rederob (5 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If the government chooses to tell people under 40 that its ok to take AZ after medical advice, and cover MD's for indemnity against legal cases, then it must start a compensation scheme for patients who are adversley affected by taking AZ.
> 
> MD's lives are not at risk, so why indemnify them and not compensate patients whose lives are adversely affected by a government sponsored vaccine ?
> 
> If the risks are so low it won't cost much money and will promote increased vaccination confidence.



Consider this:
Under 40's deaths from covid are extremely low.
Under 40s in high risk environments have Pfizer available.
The efficacy of both vaccines is similar after both doses.
AZ is most effective where the second dose is delayed as long as practicable.  Generally the minimum wait in Australia is 12 weeks for the second AZ dose.  AZ has a quantifiable health risk to young people that is greater than for Pfizer.
Pfizer can be re-dosed after 3 weeks (if supply is available!) so is clearly desirable for those in high risk categories, which logically should include those aged over 60.  Instead, we only have AZ as an option unless employed in a high risk occupation/environment.
Adverse reactions from AZ, while rare, are more likely amongst the young.
We don't have adequate supplies of either AZ or Pfizer to do much better in our vaccine rollout. 

Our vaccine rollout practices have been determined principally on *availability*, and then balanced with next best advice (which keeps changing).  
WRT to where we are *today*, I personally cannot see any national benefit in proposing that young people now rush to AZ.   We know that Pfizer and Moderna (28-day dose interval), and probably Novovax as well (with a second dose interval of 21 days) will be available in a quantity that will get our population double dosed within the same time or less than using AZ for younger age groups (ie, via substitution).


----------



## moXJO (5 July 2021)

I'm actually interested in how bad the symptoms from this strain is?



If it were to run riot obviously it would put more into critical just on the numbers game. But compared to the previous strain how does it compare symptom wise?


----------



## Knobby22 (5 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm actually interested in how bad the symptoms from this strain is?
> 
> 
> 
> If it were to run riot obviously it would put more into critical just on the numbers game. But compared to the previous strain how does it compare symptom wise?




We need to know the ages of the people in intensive care and if there are any pre-existing conditions.
4 in intensive care from 226 - about 2% seems pretty normal if it is a cross section of the population.

On average I would expect one of the four to die, but no one is on a ventilator yet so perhaps not. Very small sample

Peru is meant to be the most honest in keeping stats and also has pretty poor treatment unlike Australia and less testing so will miss many cases.



COUNTRYCONFIRMEDDEATHSCASE-FATALITYDEATHS/100K POP.Peru2,057,554192,6879.4%592.69





Australia30,7539103.0%3.59


United States33,713,870605,4931.8%184.47

Everyone knows the actual US deaths are actual about 1 million. Ours are higher due to the nursing home outbreak.









						Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## grah33 (5 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm hearing this delta version is basically the sniffles compared to the original. It's more contagious but less lethal.



really ?   might just be bull


----------



## macca (5 July 2021)

Over the past year virologists in the USA have suggested that as the current vaccines do not actually kill Covid they will allow it to mutate within an infected person.

It could quite possibly create a strain that is vaccine resistant, a bit like the over use of Antibiotics allowing new bugs to breed up.

I do agree with the previous posts that we really need to release as much data as possible, informed people usually err on the side of caution.

It is only in the UK and parts of Europe and some third world countries that are releasing accurate data.

I can't find any research in Australia about health deficiencies that heighten Covid effects, we need commentary on the positive and negative effects of exercise, blood conditions, drugs eg: do blood thinners make it worse, what about smokers, asthmatics, vitamins and mineral deficiencies etc etc

Here in OZ afaik no one is doing any actual research on sensible precautions that we as a populous can be taking.

I am quite amazed at the naivette and BS of people who think that Covid will disappear any time soon.

IMO it is just like the flu, it will come around on a regular basis every time it mutates into a new strain.

Funnily enough, the precautions that I find dramatically improve flu prevention also work for Covid (and the common cold) so it is  a matter of just keep doing it Macca and Mrs


----------



## wayneL (5 July 2021)

Hmm so the vaccinated are the real variant factories... That is equally plausible, but of course does not fit the narrative..

It could even be argued that we want more and more variants as the typical path is for reducing lethality as per @moXJO  comments earlier.

@macca totally on board with your point re sensible precautions, just like influenza.


----------



## bellenuit (5 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Hmm so the vaccinated are the real variant factories... That is equally plausible, but of course does not fit the narrative..




No, it's not equally plausible. Assuming a vaccinated person with COVID is equally likely to create a variant as an unvaccinated person is, but If the vaccines prevent 90%+ infections in the first place, then vaccinated people in total are only 10% likely to be the breeding ground for COVID varients. And that ignores the multiplier effect of vaccinated people that are not infected, not passing on the virus to others.


----------



## IFocus (5 July 2021)

I thought variants evolved more from people with compromised immune systems carrying a higher viral load hence higher probability of variants unlike vaccinated persons lower viral load should they become infectious.


----------



## wayneL (5 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> I thought variants evolved more from people with compromised immune systems carrying a higher viral load hence higher probability of variants unlike vaccinated persons lower viral load should they become infectious.



Rederob is googling and crafting his ad hominem as we speak 😉


----------



## moXJO (5 July 2021)

grah33 said:


> really ?   might just be bull



Need a larger dataset I suppose. Our numbers are bloody low though. And as I said above "the more cases the bigger the risk".


bellenuit said:


> No, it's not equally plausible. Assuming a vaccinated person with COVID is equally likely to create a variant as an unvaccinated person is, but If the vaccines prevent 90%+ infections in the first place, then vaccinated people in total are only 10% likely to be the breeding ground for COVID varients. And that ignores the multiplier effect of vaccinated people that are not infected, not passing on the virus to others.



This is correct. More people vaccinated means less people will get it, means less chance of mutations. 

However if countries are only one dosing or their vaccine is dodge then its a risk based on huge numbers. It won't mutate here imo. 

The bigger problem is that I suppose telling the truth of the matter allows anti-vaxxers ammunition. And as a whole I don't think Aussies are keen to jab sht in their bodies from the medical profession. No need to give the screeches any ammo if it's not sensibly used.


If you are 60 and even 55+ I'd go get vaccinated. If you are fit and healthy, I've had friends that got it worse because their immune system fought it for longer (no scientific evidence). It's still worth vaccinating at this point. Just from the point of being able to travel to other countries, those that are vaccinated are more likely to be rubber stamped.


----------



## moXJO (5 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> We need to know the ages of the people in intensive care and if there are any pre-existing conditions.
> 4 in intensive care from 226 - about 2% seems pretty normal if it is a cross section of the population.
> 
> On average I would expect one of the four to die, but no one is on a ventilator yet so perhaps not. Very small sample
> ...



I was expecting casualties as there were some 70+ yo infected. Who knows if any have prior conditions. But at this point NSW seems to be doing OK. 

I know the dipshts on Twitter have been hounding Bjiggles but the contact tracing has been doing a fantastic job so far to keep numbers this low. Everyone is pretty relaxed about it. But a week can make a world of difference.


----------



## wayneL (5 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Need a larger dataset I suppose. Our numbers are bloody low though. And as I said above "the more cases the bigger the risk".
> 
> This is correct. More people vaccinated means less people will get it, means less chance of mutations.
> 
> ...



Just a point @moXJO, the vast majority of the hesitant, aren't "antivaxxers"  in any sense of the term. The vast majority are pro vax and have smallpox, tetanus, polio, and whatever vaxes.

But like me, they want a long term data based risk versus reward scenario. That info is not available at this point, hence the hesitation.


----------



## Humid (5 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I was expecting casualties as there were some 70+ yo infected. Who knows if any have prior conditions. But at this point NSW seems to be doing OK.
> 
> I know the dipshts on Twitter have been hounding Bjiggles but the contact tracing has been doing a fantastic job so far to keep numbers this low. Everyone is pretty relaxed about it. But a week can make a world of difference.



So whats the concern the mortality of people or businesses you appear to be sitting on the fence with lockdowns


----------



## macca (5 July 2021)

I can't find any deaths from Covid in Oz this Year (local acquired cases) although they seem very reluctant to make this info easy to find, so I could be wrong, 

Meanwhile in the UK it seems they intend to "reopen" even if Delta continues to grow, if we apply that logic here then we should be full speed ahead without any lockdowns

<<Writing in _The Mail on Sunday_, newly appointed Health Secretary Sajid Javid outlined his mission to “restore our freedoms and learn to live with Covid-19”.

Mr Javid said the government had to “be honest with people about the fact that we cannot eliminate” the virus, and that “cases are going to rise significantly”.

“I know many people will be cautious about the easing of restrictions – that’s completely understandable,” he wrote.

“But no date we choose will ever come without risk, so we have to take a broad and balanced view. We are going to have to learn to accept the existence of covid and find ways to cope with it – just as we already do with flu.”>>


----------



## moXJO (6 July 2021)

Humid said:


> So whats the concern the mortality of people or businesses you appear to be sitting on the fence with lockdowns



No, media sensationalism. 
Are we locking down over strong flu like symptoms?
Mortality concerns of which group needs to be pumped full of vaccine to stop bloody lockdowns.

Not sitting on the fence with lockdowns. I want them to stop asap.


----------



## moXJO (6 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Just a point @moXJO, the vast majority of the hesitant, aren't "antivaxxers"  in any sense of the term. The vast majority are pro vax and have smallpox, tetanus, polio, and whatever vaxes.
> 
> But like me, they want a long term data based risk versus reward scenario. That info is not available at this point, hence the hesitation.



Yes I understand as I'm in the same boat. I don't particularly want to jam some rushed sht into my body. But this means I'm more susceptible to saying "no freaking way" if I read negative data that's been tweaked by anti vaxxers.
I'm aware of a few potential problems with the vaccine and recent studies done. If its a yearly thing then not particularly interested.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Not sitting on the fence with lockdowns. I want them to stop asap.




So does everyone.

However I'm going to trust the governments this time, because lockdowns are so politically poisonous that there is no advantage to imposing them unless it's necessary from a public health point of view.

Sometimes tough decisions have to be made.

 If you want lockdowns to stop, go and get vaccinated.


----------



## moXJO (6 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So does everyone.
> 
> However I'm going to trust the governments this time, because lockdowns are so politically poisonous that there is no advantage to imposing them unless it's necessary from a public health point of view.
> 
> ...



There is clearly a political divide as evident by Vic and nsw comments. Covid isn't going away for years and lockdowns simply won't be extended into the future. The fastest way out is vaccination. But it won't end the virus or the problems for some time yet.

Unvaccinated will also be at a disadvantage as shown by other countries:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-may-reimpose-covid-19-175021497.html

Some stats from above:

_*Vaccines have significantly decreased severe illness and deaths in Israel. Even with Delta spreading, the Pfizer vaccine has been 93% effective at preventing hospitalizations, the Health Ministry has reported.

But in preventing infections overall - including mild ones - the vaccine's efficacy has dropped from 94.3% between May 2 and June 5 to 64% from June 6 to July 3, according to the news site Ynet.
*_
*About 38% of Israel's population remains unvaccinated, according to The New York Times' tracker. Those people are vulnerable to severe illness and death as case counts rise. It's not yet clear whether vaccinated people with mild infections of the Delta variant can spread it to the unvaccinated.*


----------



## wayneL (6 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So does everyone.
> 
> However I'm going to trust the governments this time, because lockdowns are so politically poisonous that there is no advantage to imposing them unless it's necessary from a public health point of view.
> 
> ...



The government and pharmaceutical companies are two entities that would be last a my list of entities to trust, unless there is is sufficient evidence to the country.

Both are capable of tremendous good, but also tremendous evil; that has been shown time and time and time again over the decades.

In my little sphere of crazies and malcontents that is a huge opposition to these vaccines unless there has been normal due process.

Why?

The Hendra Vax.

This was similarly rushed through and what's not given due process. consequently the adverse reactions in horses have been numerous and deleterious... To the point that that was a massive class action against Zoetis (which until fairly recently was a subsidiary of Pfizer).

To my best understanding, the matter was apparently settled out of court with a non disclosure clause and to avoid any sort of liability I don't think I should comment on what I know about that outcome in public.

In my job I got to see many of these adverse reactions and examine the circumstances under which they occurred. Again I should probably leave it there to avoid any possible liability.

I believe they have eventually managed to largely ameliorate that issue, but not before a whole lot of stuff that happened.

That's all I ask for before I get any one of these vaxes. I want to know for sure that the risk vs reward is greater by taking the Vax than by taking my chances with potentially catching the virus (and though 60 next month I am in rude health and read my chances of death or any long-term consequences as virtually zero).

Dammit, I have a greater chance of been taken out by some mongrel horse.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> The government and pharmaceutical companies are two entities that would be last a my list of entities to trust, unless there is is sufficient evidence to the country.
> 
> Both are capable of tremendous good, but also tremendous evil; that has been shown time and time and time again over the decades.
> 
> ...




Fair enough, however I can see consequences for not being vaccinated in the future.

Inability to travel, maybe being locked out of certain establishments, excluded from certain jobs etc.

I know its potentially a violation of civil rights etc, but I'm pretty sure that's what will happen to some extent.


----------



## wayneL (6 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Fair enough, however I can see consequences for not being vaccinated in the future.
> 
> Inability to travel, maybe being locked out of certain establishments, excluded from certain jobs etc.
> 
> I know its potentially a violation of civil rights etc, but I'm pretty sure that's what will happen to some extent.



Perhaps, but in so doing we will be kissing our Western Liberal democracy goodbye

Decades ago we sent our finest to fight for this principle. Are we really prepared to give it away so cheaply?


----------



## grah33 (6 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Fair enough, however I can see consequences for not being vaccinated in the future.
> 
> Inability to travel, maybe being locked out of certain establishments, excluded from certain jobs etc.
> 
> I know its potentially a violation of civil rights etc, but I'm pretty sure that's what will happen to some extent.



They might be lying to us now, only to later on use coercion forcefully once  most of the country has been vaccinated.


----------



## bellenuit (6 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Decades ago we sent our finest to fight for this principle. Are we really prepared to give it away so cheaply?




I think our finest from decades ago would be shocked at the whinging today about the small sacrifices people are being asked to make for the common good, compared with what they were asked to do when they were called upon.


----------



## wayneL (6 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I think our finest from decades ago would be shocked at the whinging today about the small sacrifices people are being asked to make for the common good, compared with what they were asked to do when they were called upon.



Not the ones I know who are still alive. They are furious.


----------



## macca (6 July 2021)

Written by one of the lead inventors of mRNA vaccines........

*Robert W Malone, MD, MS1*


I provide this brief essay for the TrialSite community because you are involved or at least interested in human subject clinical research. By way of background, please understand that I am a vaccine specialist and advocate, as well as the original inventor of the mRNA vaccine (and DNA vaccine) core platform technology. But I also have extensive training in bioethics from the University of Maryland, Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, and Harvard Medical School, and advanced clinical development and regulatory affairs are core competencies for me.  









						Bioethics of Experimental COVID Vaccine Deployment under EUA: It’s time we stop and look at what’s going down.
					

Robert W Malone, MD, MS1 I provide this brief essay for the TrialSite community because you are involved or at least interested in human subject clinical



					trialsitenews.com


----------



## Humid (6 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Yes I understand as I'm in the same boat. I don't particularly want to jam some rushed sht into my body. But this means I'm more susceptible to saying "no freaking way" if I read negative data that's been tweaked by anti vaxxers.
> I'm aware of a few potential problems with the vaccine and recent studies done. If its a yearly thing then not particularly interested.



Wrong school mate








						‘An error’: health department says Sydney private school students given Pfizer vaccine by mistake
					

NSW Health agreed to vaccinate Indigenous boarders at St Joseph’s College but ‘through an error’ all year 12 boarders were inoculated




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Humid (6 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Perhaps, but in so doing we will be kissing our Western Liberal democracy goodbye
> 
> Decades ago we sent our finest to fight for this principle. Are we really prepared to give it away so cheaply?



Decades does that  include WMD?


----------



## Humid (6 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I think our finest from decades ago would be shocked at the whinging today about the small sacrifices people are being asked to make for the common good, compared with what they were asked to do when they were called upon.



You can ask them their rolling out the vaccines


----------



## Humid (6 July 2021)

On a war footing


----------



## wayneL (6 July 2021)

Humid said:


> Decades does that  include WMD?



While I dips me lid to the ADF personnel involved, I'm not sure the motive on the political level was the same. Maybe a discussion for another time


----------



## Humid (6 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> While I dips me lid to the ADF personnel involved, I'm not sure the motive on the political level was the same. Maybe a discussion for another time



Its always political......always


----------



## Humid (6 July 2021)

Just like the bloke on your screens in khaki today


----------



## wayneL (6 July 2021)

Humid said:


> Its always political......always



Yes of course. But the politics *may at times be more sincere (at least on one side of the equation) than others. No?


----------



## IFocus (6 July 2021)

We have gone ( Morrison) very American the big lectern, standing in front of flags and uniforms.

Complete tossers.


----------



## wayneL (6 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> We have gone ( Morrison) very American the big lectern, standing in front of flags and uniforms.
> 
> Complete tossers.



Probably more Pinochet than USA, FWIW


----------



## moXJO (7 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I think our finest from decades ago would be shocked at the whinging today about the small sacrifices people are being asked to make for the common good, compared with what they were asked to do when they were called upon.



Pretty sure a lot of them are whinging. "Good of the country" is damn well subjective.


----------



## grah33 (7 July 2021)

macca said:


> Written by one of the lead inventors of mRNA vaccines........
> 
> *Robert W Malone, MD, MS1*
> 
> ...



very techy  , but good for a browse.  one feels they have to warn/inform people.


----------



## bellenuit (7 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Pretty sure a lot of them are whinging. "Good of the country" is damn well subjective.




As what they went fighting for was also subjective. Many would not have accepted they were there to fight _the war to end all wars_ or whatever the mantra was for the war they were in, but they did it. Even though many today may not accept that being vaccinated and being limited due to social distancing and mask wearing may be for the good of he country, those measures are trivial compared to what those generations fo young people did.


----------



## IFocus (7 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Probably more Pinochet than USA, FWIW




Every time I see the US politicians doing this I think tin pot Latin dictators seen a few.

Went to Chile when Pinochet was in power, all through Latin America you could have political conversations except Chile no one and I mean no one would talk politics such was the danger.

Crossed from Chile into Peru with a couple of Chileans and a Peruvian in a "colectivo" not a word spoken on the Chilean side once we crossed the border you couldn't shut them up.

On a high light best over night bus ride ever, on board had two hostess's, played bingo, server dinner, watched a movie and then virtually tucked in for a sleep.   Cost $14 USD from Puerto Montt to Santiago.

Sorry for off topic.


----------



## moXJO (7 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> As what they went fighting for was also subjective. Many would not have accepted they were there to fight _the war to end all wars_ or whatever the mantra was for the war they were in, but they did it. Even though many today may not accept that being vaccinated and being limited due to social distancing and mask wearing may be for the good of he country, those measures are trivial compared to what those generations fo young people did.



Right now we have millions of small businesses doing it for "the good of the country". Foot traffic in many shopping centres is down 80% rents of $30000 plus a month and millions of employees.

Lockdowns are having real consequences so yeah whinging to ensure the governments are actually following science backed protocols is damn important.

Big thing I'm noticing is the affect on the younger kids mentality. 

As for wars, we damn well should be questioning governments.


----------



## moXJO (7 July 2021)

Anyway they had to crank the ventilators.



Get your oldies vaccinated or vaccinate if you are 60+. I'm reading that once we hit a certain number of vaccinated, the rest will be left to the wolves as we reopen.


----------



## Knobby22 (7 July 2021)

*Just want to point out this Delta variant is deadly. 2 now on ventilators. Eight patients in hospital under 35. And this is only from a small NSW breakout.*  (It looks to me that NSW are failing to contain it.)

_NSW Health confirmed that only 13 of the new cases were in isolation prior to their positive COVID-19 test result. 

Additionally, 18 of the locally acquired cases are linked to a known case, 11 are close contacts, and seven are household contacts of previously confirmed cases.

Chief health officer Kerry Chant said the myth of the virus only impacting the elderly was not true, with 14 out of the 37 hospitalised patients under the age of 55 and a further eight patients under the age of 35.

"It is a bit of a wake-up call to young people," she said.

"The Delta strain is not a mild disease. It can be mild in some but for many it can lead to hospitalisation and death."

There are currently two people in ICU on ventilators._









						NSW COVID-19 'wake-up call': lockdown extended, dozens of new infections and 37 in hospital
					

Greater Sydney's COVID-19 lockdown is extended until July 16, as the state records 27 new locally acquired infections and Premier Gladys Berejiklian warns more restrictions may be necessary.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Humid (7 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> *Just want to point out this Delta variant is deadly. 2 now on ventilators. Eight patients in hospital under 35. And this is only from a small NSW breakout.*  (It looks to me that NSW are failing to contain it.)
> 
> _NSW Health confirmed that only 13 of the new cases were in isolation prior to their positive COVID-19 test result.
> 
> ...



Wasn't yesterday on here.....Gold Standard


----------



## grah33 (7 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> *Just want to point out this Delta variant is deadly. 2 now on ventilators. Eight patients in hospital under 35. And this is only from a small NSW breakout.*  (It looks to me that NSW are failing to contain it.)
> 
> _NSW Health confirmed that only 13 of the new cases were in isolation prior to their positive COVID-19 test result.
> 
> ...



well, elsewhere i read that there were hardly any hospitalizations from delta in the UK

also, there might be a plausible theory out there that the vaccines wreck your immunity so you get sick from a harmless virus.  people such as the mRNA inventor might have alluded to this (got to check).


----------



## grah33 (7 July 2021)

macca said:


> Written by one of the lead inventors of mRNA vaccines........
> 
> *Robert W Malone, MD, MS1*
> 
> ...



thanks for sharing. content is alarming


----------



## moXJO (7 July 2021)

Humid said:


> Wasn't yesterday on here.....Gold Standard



It gave Zerafa an excuse to not fight Tszyu.
Oh no I might get the sniffles when I go to box Tszyu. Dan Andrews has seriously brain damaged all of Victoria.


----------



## Humid (7 July 2021)

He seems to have got inside your head....must be lockdowns


----------



## moXJO (7 July 2021)

Humid said:


> He seems to have got inside your head....must be lockdowns




Zerafa or Andrews. It's possibly the most Idiotic move ever in boxing.


----------



## Humid (8 July 2021)

Both


----------



## moXJO (8 July 2021)

Humid said:


> Both



You know if that's the case Scomo must have base operations in your head and his holiday home in your ass.


----------



## IFocus (8 July 2021)

Haven't seen it talked about on here after you get AZ there are follow up questions every so often asking about any issues. 

The data will exist some where if anyone is interested.


----------



## Humid (8 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> You know if that's the case Scomo must have base operations in your head and his holiday home in your ass.



You westies have had a tough day...


----------



## basilio (9 July 2021)

Getting people vaccinated. Make it easy. Make it interesting. Make it happen.









						Would you like Pfizer with that? Why convenience is key in getting people vaccinated, fast
					

Some countries are offering the jab at big attractions, others are offering COVID vaccines in fast food car parks, all in an effort to bring the vaccine to the people and make it as easy as possible to get.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (9 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Getting people vaccinated. Make it easy. Make it interesting. Make it happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Make Pfizer some money


----------



## basilio (9 July 2021)

Astro Zeneca is a very good vaccine.  We have a ton of it on hand. It is (much) cheaper than Pfizer .
We should be using it as far and as fast as possible.


----------



## sptrawler (9 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Astro Zeneca is a very good vaccine.  We have a ton of it on hand. It is (much) cheaper than Pfizer .
> We should be using it as far and as fast as possible.



The media has put AZ that much on the nose, even Scott from marketing, can't sell it.
That is one of the down sides, of public opinion, being driven by media sensationalism, it ends up with the plebs not believing anything.🤣


----------



## Knobby22 (9 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Don't forget I predicted lockdown Tuesday (today)! Let's see.
> If she doesn't she will be a mug.



Guess who is a mug.
And the lockdown still isn't strong enough. Go quickly go hard.
NSW will be in lockdown for months.
You think they would have learnt from Victoria's mistakes.


----------



## basilio (9 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Guess who is a mug.
> And the lockdown still isn't strong enough. Go quickly go hard.
> NSW will be in lockdown for months.
> You think they would have learnt from Victoria's mistakes.




I'm concerned. (and the rest..) This new strain is far more contagious than the earlier variants. Knocking it back into it's box seems a very formidable task given the number of people who have developed the illness and have been in the community.

Fast vaccination is the most effective response but unless the government manages to get AstoZeneca vaccine accepted by millions of people that doesn't seem possible for at least 3-4 months.

Back to thoughts and prayers...


----------



## rederob (10 July 2021)

*The data is telling us that less than 70% of the population with at least one dose is not close to herd immunity.*





*The UK and USA still have significant spread, with the USA having a daily positive count now higher than a month ago.  Meanwhile the UK, despite having a much higher proportion of their population vaccinated, has seen a progressive upward case count over the past 2 months.*





*Talk is now serious about the need for a third dose.*


----------



## Knobby22 (10 July 2021)

rederob said:


> *The data is telling us that less than 70% of the population with at least one dose is not close to herd immunity.*
> View attachment 127204
> 
> *The UK and USA still have significant spread, with the USA having a daily positive count now higher than a month ago.  Meanwhile the UK, despite having a much higher proportion of their population vaccinated, has seen a progressive upward case count over the past 2 months.*
> ...



With the characteristics of the virus and the effectiveness of the vaccine (which is pretty good), we  need still need upwards of 95% vaccinated from what I have read to achieve herd immunity and really we need it worldwide. the best figure I have seen is 87%.
Even assuming the virus doesn't mutate, then to achieve herd immunity is a pipe dream.

The best we can expect is a reduction in symptoms and improvements in survival as had occurred elsewhere.

We should just open up as soon as everyone has had the chance to be vaccinated for the good of all and let the unvaccinated take their chances.
I am hoping February as this is probably the earliest Morrison can call an election and he can call it a week before the poll.


----------



## moXJO (10 July 2021)

rederob said:


> *The data is telling us that less than 70% of the population with at least one dose is not close to herd immunity.*
> View attachment 127204
> 
> *The UK and USA still have significant spread, with the USA having a daily positive count now higher than a month ago.  Meanwhile the UK, despite having a much higher proportion of their population vaccinated, has seen a progressive upward case count over the past 2 months.*
> ...



Pfizer released a confusing statement about needing a third dose but currently you are protected with the initial 2 shots.
A big up trend in the numbers is through those still unvaccinated seemingly being clumped in certain areas. Poorer areas will probably mean uptick in deaths due to health/eating habits. 

As for Australia we seem to have three choices, one of those choices is on limited time. It's either: Lockdowns, Vaccination, deaths.

Lockdowns are not going to work for much longer as population has had jack of it and the economic/physiological  damage is to great. 

I think we will get a lot less vaccination resistance as people are over the inconvenience lockdown brings.

I think once everyone has had the chance to vaccinate the government will stop Lockdowns altogether. 

Obviously contact tracing has failed as a measure against the delta strain. Unfortunately people just stopped caring.


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2021)

Interesting article, on the vaccine developments.








						Pfizer, AZ and Moderna have dominated the globe. But Australia's 'next generation' COVID-19 vaccines offer something different
					

As mutant strains of the COVID-19 continue to appear, scientists and researchers are working feverishly behind the scenes to find the next vaccines. And Australia is part of the search.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (11 July 2021)

So what are the implications  of getting hit with two COVID strains at once ?









						Woman, 90, infected with Alpha and Beta Covid variants at the same time
					

Researchers warn ‘phenomenon is probably underestimated’ after the death of woman in Belgium




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (11 July 2021)

*Loved this take.*

*300,000 Additional Vaccines Accidentally Used To Vaccinate St Joseph Students 1,841 Times                *







In what has been described as an ‘administrative error’ the 300,000 additional doses of COVID-19 vaccines which were rushed to NSW this week to deal with the growing outbreak have been used to vaccinate 163 private school students 1,841 times each.

A spokesperson for NSW Health said it was an honest mistake.                                                                                

“Our intention was for the vaccines to only be used for vulnerable people within the community. But then the guy driving the vaccine truck took a wrong turn and stopped at St Joseph’s College for directions, and when he opened the door to get out, he accidentally knocked the latch on the back of the truck and the vaccines went flying into the arms of 163 boarding students who happened to be seated in a large room nearby. This same sequence of events happened 1,841 times in a row, which means the boys are now very well vaccinated but we don’t have any vaccines left. That’s life. It could happen to anybody really”.

*Some experts are concerned the extraordinarily large number of doses per boy may lead to health issues. But the school’s headmaster dismissed those concerns saying the students were well adapted to receiving much more than they needed.*

NSW Health Minister Brad Hazzard also dismissed concerns about the error, saying, “there was a mistake. So what? Move on”.

But *others within the Liberal Party say the situation is grossly unfair, pointing out that there were dozens of other private schools who had missed out as a result.*









						300,000 Additional Vaccines Accidentally Used To Vaccinate St Joseph Students 1,841 Times
					

"It was an honest mistake"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## moXJO (11 July 2021)

basilio said:


> *Loved this take.*
> 
> *300,000 Additional Vaccines Accidentally Used To Vaccinate St Joseph Students 1,841 Times                *
> 
> ...



Apparently there was a mix up in the order after a priest rang through mentioning he wanted pfizer so he could jab the students.

Too far?


----------



## Knobby22 (11 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Apparently there was a mix up in the order after a priest rang through mentioning he wanted pfizer so he could jab the students.
> 
> Too far?



Maybe expecting the Johnston & Johnston one?
(sorry)


----------



## basilio (11 July 2021)

Interesting insight into COVID vaccine politics today.  It seems that a senior Australian businessman asked Kevin Rudd to  encourage Pfizer to bring forward supplies of their vaccine.

Well documented story on the ABC News site.  Clever effective diplomacy. Instructive to read the letters, the way Rudd managed the situation and the effect of previous  Scomo negotiations   on  the Pfizer management.

Senior business figures turned to former PM Kevin Rudd to intervene in bringing forward Australia's Pfizer vaccine supply ​7.30
 / By Laura Tingle
Posted 57m ago57 minutes ago




 A network of senior businessmen contacted former prime minister Kevin Rudd and set up an introduction with Pfizer boss Albert Bourla. (
AAP: Mick Tsikas
)
Share

The bringing forward of millions of Pfizer vaccine doses last week followed a back channels intervention eight days earlier by a high-powered network which included a senior business figure despairing of the government's failure to secure enough vaccine supplies, and a former prime minister.









						Days before Scott Morrison announced earlier Pfizer vaccine supplies, Kevin Rudd met with the Pfizer chairman
					

Former prime minister Kevin Rudd contacted Pfizer chairman and chief executive Albert Bourla directly at the end of June to see if anything could be done to expedite the delivery of vaccines to Australia.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Interesting insight into COVID vaccine politics today.  It seems that a senior Australian businessman asked Kevin Rudd to  encourage Pfizer to bring forward supplies of their vaccine.
> 
> Well documented story on the ABC News site.  Clever effective diplomacy. Instructive to read the letters, the way Rudd managed the situation and the effect of previous  Scomo negotiations   on  the Pfizer management.
> 
> ...



Great news, I'm surprised Malcolm couldn't get into the photo shoot, the ABC must have been rushing to meet the deadline. 🤣


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

Has anyone that has had the vaccine experienced any heart problems, weight loss or had a check up after receiving second dose?


----------



## wayneL (12 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Interesting insight into COVID vaccine politics today.  It seems that a senior Australian businessman asked Kevin Rudd to  encourage Pfizer to bring forward supplies of their vaccine.
> 
> Well documented story on the ABC News site.  Clever effective diplomacy. Instructive to read the letters, the way Rudd managed the situation and the effect of previous  Scomo negotiations   on  the Pfizer management.
> 
> ...



FWIW


----------



## basilio (12 July 2021)

basilio said:


> I'm concerned. (and the rest..) This new strain is far more contagious than the earlier variants. Knocking it back into it's box seems a very formidable task given the number of people who have developed the illness and have been in the community.
> 
> Fast vaccination is the most effective response but unless the government manages to get AstoZeneca vaccine accepted by millions of people that doesn't seem possible for at least 3-4 months.
> 
> Back to thoughts and prayers...




The best vaccine is the one available now.

NSW Premier and Health officials have "re evaluated" the risks around  the AstroZeneca vaccine.  New story is do it now ASAP.

Big change to NSW Covid-19 vaccine rollout​NSW Health authorities have made a big change to their risk assessment of the AstraZeneca vaccine.

_.....But on Monday, as NSW recorded a mammoth 112 new community cases of Covid-19, Dr Chant said the Delta variant had changed everything.

“The AstraZeneca discussion, we have always felt best to have with a health professional that understands your clinical background and circumstances. Your GP fits that mould,” she said.

“...Under the current situation, because we actually have Covid and the Delta strain circulating, it then means that your individual risk of acquiring the strain is very much different than it would have been a month or so ago when the community risk would have been very low.”_









						Big change to AZ ‘risk situation’
					

The AstraZeneca vaccine will now be available to anyone over the age of 40 at mass vaccination hubs across New South Wales.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> FWIW




Yeah appears to be fake news but the propaganda is out now.


----------



## basilio (12 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Yeah appears to be fake news but the propaganda is out now.




Propaganda indeed.
Clearly there was no way ScoMo was going to allow any suggestion that he wasn't behind the bringing forward of Pfizer doses.

And Keven Rudd was at *absolute pains *to point out that the only way decisions would be made would be through formal government channels. So of course if/when there was any change in possible supply dates it had to be on a government to business basis. He was just smoozing.

And in any case we know how much of a stickler this government is on proper process and ensuring no undue influence on government purchases of business services/products.


----------



## IFocus (12 July 2021)

You know its a total cluster when business interests ask Rudd to help out... shezzas anyone watch Hunt?


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Propaganda indeed.
> Clearly there was no way ScoMo was going to allow any suggestion that he wasn't behind the bringing forward of Pfizer doses.
> 
> And Keven Rudd was at *absolute pains *to point out that the only way decisions would be made would be through formal government channels. So of course if/when there was any change in possible supply dates it had to be on a government to business basis. He was just smoozing.
> ...



I'm in no way defending scomo (who seems from an observers point of view gone missing the last few weeks).

But I trust Rudd as much as the Labor party do.
The story gave the feel that Rudd saved the day.


----------



## wayneL (12 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm in no way defending scomo (who seems from an observers point of view gone missing the last few weeks).
> 
> But I trust Rudd as much as the Labor party do.
> The story gave the feel that Rudd saved the day.



And it does appear that The luveees have swallowed the propaganda.

(And just to reiterate once more, I will not to be voting Liberal in the next election in the Reps or the Senate.... Or probably ever again, just in case anyone is under the misapprehension that I am any sort of rusted on Liberal voter)


----------



## SirRumpole (12 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Astro Zeneca is a very good vaccine.  We have a ton of it on hand. It is (much) cheaper than Pfizer .
> We should be using it as far and as fast as possible.




First shot on Thursday.


----------



## pozindustrial (12 July 2021)

"So, in a nutshell, while vaccine makers, health authorities, mainstream media, social media platforms like Facebook and public advertisements tell you the vaccine has undergone rigorous testing, has been “approved” and is safe and effective, none of those claims are true."
Quote from this article.








						The WHO and WEF Globalists Coordinate Their Global 'Reset'
					

Each year, the world's elite converge in Switzerland to discuss their plans for the rest of us. What are they coming up with this time?




					articles.mercola.com
				




Tread carefully with experimental drugs that have been heavily marketed by vested interests. A vaccine has never been the only answer but they will certainly bring incredible wealth to the companies that market them so that is how they are promoted. I do not believe the propaganda from governments and drug companies and I certainly do not believe the risks from a vaccine are worth it, especially knowing that they are not tested for long-term problems.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm in no way defending scomo (who seems from an observers point of view gone missing the last few weeks).
> 
> But I trust Rudd as much as the Labor party do.
> The story gave the feel that Rudd saved the day.



I'm surprised that Kev and Mal haven't applied to be on survivor, Big Brother, or I'm and idiot get me out of here.
IMO they are a perfect example, of people who appear to have entered politics, to use it as a venue for their theatrical aspirations.
Remember the entrance, "I'm Kevin, I'm here to help you", I mean really. 🤣 Then he increases the retirement age to 67 FFS, thanks very much for the help.
Then you get Malcolm in the middle, "when I leave politics, I won't be one of those wretched ghosts, that keep hanging around", well take your own council and leave.🤪
At least Julia went her own way and showed a bit of class.
Politics has become a game show, with the media setting the rules.
Rule number one, get a date for anything, when that date is past you have endless ammunition to attack with.


----------



## rederob (12 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> "So, in a nutshell, while vaccine makers, health authorities, mainstream media, social media platforms like Facebook and public advertisements tell you the vaccine has undergone rigorous testing, has been “approved” and is safe and effective, none of those claims are true."
> Quote from this article.
> 
> 
> ...



Yet another series of false claims peddled by @pozindustrial who quotes from the totally debunked mercola website.
Many vaccines have been approved and many more are in phase 3 trials.
While it is possible that the more experimental mRNA vaccines could give rise to side effects in year to come, the reality is that these platforms do not account for the majority of jabs delivered to date across the globe.  
It's no surprise that people who do not believe that vaccines are a solution to the pandemic are the same people that peddle discredited information.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2021)

basilio said:


> The best vaccine is the one available now.
> 
> NSW Premier and Health officials have "re evaluated" the risks around  the AstroZeneca vaccine.  New story is do it now ASAP.
> 
> ...



Further to your article Bas, as you say the AZ is becoming more acceptable as time moves on, one has to wonder why the very small percentage of bad reactions caused such a major public reaction.   Maybe it created good headlines?
Who says old vaccine technology is bad and new technology is good?









						ATAGI advice on AstraZeneca vaccine remains unchanged for under 60s
					

The expert panel advising on Australia's COVID-19 vaccine rollout does not changed its advice limiting AstraZeneca vaccines to people over 60.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
The ongoing debate about the AstraZeneca vaccine has been fuelled by the shot being linked to a small number of rare blood clotting cases, both in Australia and overseas.

A fortnight ago, Prime Minister Scott Morrison said all Australians could get the AstraZeneca vaccine if they consulted their GP.

It prompted heavy criticism from some state and territory leaders, who said it contradicted the official advice recommending younger people be vaccinated with the Pfizer shot.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Interesting insight into COVID vaccine politics today.  It seems that a senior Australian businessman asked Kevin Rudd to  encourage Pfizer to bring forward supplies of their vaccine.
> 
> Well documented story on the ABC News site.  Clever effective diplomacy. Instructive to read the letters, the way Rudd managed the situation and the effect of previous  Scomo negotiations   on  the Pfizer management.
> 
> ...



Here we go the ABC with a size 14 foot in its mouth as usual, jeez @basilio you have to look past the headlines, way too many are looking for a for something to hate. 🤣
As I said, all Kev gave us was an extra two years on our working lives, for an increase of $30 to the pension.
Morrison gave an increase of $50 to the dole and you criticise, sometimes you have to be objective, people are becoming tone deaf to the media for a reason.🤣
Also is there any wonder the ABC always finds itself in the $hit, when they don't substantiate a fairly aggressive article.
But like I said, it doesn't really matter, because it is only a game show to the media, get the headline and worry about the consequences later.
The ABC is becoming a dead man walking IMO. Actively trying to undermine the very people who pay your wages, isn't a good look. 🤣
Best the get ABC fact check onto it ASAP and give them a shovel, they could well become a regional broadcaster.
Which would be a tragedy.IMO










						Pfizer insists it only negotiates COVID vaccine supplies with the federal government
					

Pharmaceutical giant Pfizer insists supplies of COVID-19 vaccines were only negotiated with the federal government, despite former prime minister Kevin Rudd lobbying the company’s chairman.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
A letter obtained by the ABC revealed Mr Rudd wrote to Prime Minister Scott Morrison to inform him that he had talked with the global head of Pfizer and personally lobbied him to accelerate the deliveries.

Pfizer has released a statement saying all negotiations have been conducted exclusively with the federal government.

"Recent media reports suggesting that any third party or individual has had any role in contractual agreements reached between Pfizer and the Australian government are inaccurate," a Pfizer spokesperson said.

"The only two parties involved in these agreements are Pfizer and the Australian government. "


----------



## IFocus (12 July 2021)

"The only two parties involved in these agreements are Pfizer and the Australian government. "

Read it slowly SP, not that I am saying Rudd delivered but the fact he was asked to talk to Pfizer is extortionary but nothing to see here keep moving.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Here we go the ABC with a size 14 foot in its mouth as usual, jeez @basilio you have to look past the headlines, way too many are looking for a for something to hate. 🤣
> As I said, all Kev gave us was an extra two years on our working lives, for an increase of $30 to the pension.
> Morrison gave an increase of $50 to the dole and you criticise, sometimes you have to be objective, people are becoming tone deaf to the media for a reason.🤣
> Also is there any wonder the ABC always finds itself in the $hit, when they don't substantiate a fairly aggressive article.
> ...




A triumph of the totally irrelevant and therefore a sure thing for the media bloodhounds.

So what if Kev had a quiet word with some Pfizer execs, he can't negotiate on behalf of the government.

But the ABC chews on it like a dog with a bone.

More important things going on that they should be covering.


----------



## bellenuit (12 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> one has to wonder why the very small percentage of bad reactions caused such a major public reaction.




I think it was because the low infection level in Australia caused us to be complacent and many thought they could simply wait until the "best" became available, even if there wasn't a huge difference between them.


----------



## bellenuit (12 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> A triumph of the totally irrelevant and therefore a sure thing for the media bloodhounds.
> 
> So what if Kev had a quiet word with some Pfizer execs, he can't negotiate on behalf of the government.
> 
> ...




The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse: The ABC, The Guardian, Rudd and Turnbull. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if they colluded on this story to deny Morrison the credit for getting the vaccine schedule moved forward. I don't doubt that Rudd made a call, but to give him all the credit is stretching a long bow. And I don't think ScoMo has done a good job of the rollout, even acknowledging some of the early supply problems due to European pressure. But this all smells to me. This is the The ABC and The Guardian involved in activism rather than simply reporting.


----------



## orr (12 July 2021)

The $hit stiring Rudd has done on this is no better exemplified than by Greg Hunt's (please tell me his middle name is Byron ..GBH) sensitivity and Duttons clarion call to the back end of the bell curve. 
Where's the 'Cloth-eared Clori-Clown' Craig Kelly when his electorate need him least..

Why is it no one wants to talk to Schmo?... the Chineese... Pfizer... his ministers two doors down the hall about sacking & drunken sexual 'encounters' ... Attorney General the very christain porter; so much not to know... seems God might have gone quiet on the line as well.


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Here we go the ABC with a size 14 foot in its mouth as usual, jeez @basilio you have to look past the headlines, way too many are looking for a for something to hate. 🤣
> As I said, all Kev gave us was an extra two years on our working lives, for an increase of $30 to the pension.
> Morrison gave an increase of $50 to the dole and you criticise, sometimes you have to be objective, people are becoming tone deaf to the media for a reason.🤣
> Also is there any wonder the ABC always finds itself in the $hit, when they don't substantiate a fairly aggressive article.
> ...



$50 and robodebt,sports rorts,car park rorts,airport rorts and Im not in the business of envy....


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse: The ABC, The Guardian, Rudd and Turnbull. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if they colluded on this story to deny Morrison the credit for getting the vaccine schedule moved forward. I don't doubt that Rudd made a call, but to give him all the credit is stretching a long bow. And I don't think ScoMo has done a good job of the rollout, even acknowledging some of the early supply problems due to European pressure. But this all smells to me. This is the The ABC and The Guardian involved in activism rather than simply reporting.



And the letter?Its dated before the announcement


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)




----------



## bellenuit (12 July 2021)

Humid said:


> And the letter?Its dated before the announcement



So?

Any negotiations that the government did to bring forward the supplies would have been before their announcement.


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

Clutching at Rudd's straw boys...

Pfizer denies Kevin Rudd helped Australia gain earlier access to COVID-19 vaccines​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-12/pfizer-kevin-rudd-covid-19-vaccines-australia/100286370

Ruddy back at his best. If anyone knows how to take out a sitting PM, there's no one better.


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> So?
> 
> Any negotiations that the government did to bring forward the supplies would have been before their announcement.



9 days after the Rudd letter


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Clutching at Rudd's straw boys...
> 
> Pfizer denies Kevin Rudd helped Australia gain earlier access to COVID-19 vaccines​
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-12/pfizer-kevin-rudd-covid-19-vaccines-australia/100286370
> ...



Geez read the letter
Hows your superior contact tracers going


----------



## bellenuit (12 July 2021)

Humid said:


> 9 days after the Rudd letter




So?


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse: The ABC, The Guardian, Rudd and Turnbull. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if they colluded on this story to deny Morrison the credit for getting the vaccine schedule moved forward. I don't doubt that Rudd made a call, but to give him all the credit is stretching a long bow. And I don't think ScoMo has done a good job of the rollout, even acknowledging some of the early supply problems due to European pressure. But this all smells to me. This is the The ABC and The Guardian involved in activism rather than simply reporting.



Definitely blown up on social media. There seems to be an astroturf campaign against the current government. I don't really care, but there is definitely a noticeable whinge campaign based on some loose facts.


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

Humid said:


> Geez read the letter
> Hows your superior contact tracers going



How does the letter change anything. Everyone knows Rudd's a blowhard. Either way it inserts Rudd back in the limelight.

Contact tracers going well. I still haven't caught it yet.


----------



## basilio (12 July 2021)

Some creative diplomacy in Kevin Rudds letter  wasn't there ?

*Always spoke as a Private Citizen (*who had been PM not too long ago..) . Made nice noises about Pfizer and  perhaps supporting it's efforts to maximise the bucks they were making off the vaccine ( protect their intellectual  property)

He had spoken to Scomo before the meeting  to ensure accurate information about current plans and what lines not to cross.

He theorized about future additional contracts so just maybe Pfizer could find some extra doses in the next few weeks ? Nice little ploy ..

*He always  noted these were government to business decisions*.  It was just clever negotiations as a private citizen to try and get a couple of million doses a few months earlier.

I'm  sure he felt  quite smug with his summary letter to ScoMo.

Kevin was always the consummate  bureaucrat  and planner.  He made extensive lists and worked his staff into the ground to make things happen.  I suspect this capacity, his business connections and business  smarts was why he was approached by the  NSW business leader to make the contact and somehow make something happen.

In any case  3 months back he recognized the deep trouble the ScoMo government was in regarding vaccine supplies.  As usual he provided the analysis and the list of actions that needed to be done.

Australia’s vaccination rollout strategy has been an epic fail. Now Scott Morrison is trying to gaslight us​Kevin Rudd

The prime minister has displayed a breathtaking level of political complacency that borders on professional negligence




Scott Morrison (centre) with health minister Greg Hunt (right) and secretary of the department of health Brendan Murphy on Friday. ‘[Morrison’s] strategy, once again, is a political strategy. It has been to blame others – the states on delivery and the Europeans on supply,’ writes Kevin Rudd. Photograph: Mike Bowers/The Guardian
Mon 12 Apr 2021 03.30 AEST
Last modified on Mon 12 Apr 2021 12.42 AEST

Australians should be proud of their success in suppressing and eliminating coronavirus so far. This is largely due to the efforts of state governments – Labor and Liberal – in containing local outbreaks through a combination of mandatory quarantines, temporary lockdowns and effective contact tracing. And the Australian people themselves have played the biggest part by making this strategy of containment, and eventual elimination, work.

The same cannot be said of the federal government’s vaccination strategy where they have politically trumpeted their success. The daily reality of the vaccination rollout strategy reveals a litany of policy and administrative failures.




Read more
Thirteen months into the Covid-19 crisis, the states collectively get a strong B-plus on virus containment; whereas the federal government gets a D-minus on its vaccine rollout.

With the states constitutionally responsible for most of the public health response, Scott Morrison’s main role was: to secure in advance sufficient international and domestic vaccine supply; to do so from multiple vaccine developers to mitigate against the risks of individual vaccines failing; and to organise in advance a distribution strategy that would get the vaccine to the people as rapidly as possible.

On this core responsibility, Morrison has failed. His strategy, once again, is a political strategy. It has been to blame others – the states on delivery and the Europeans on supply.









						Australia’s vaccination rollout strategy has been an epic fail. Now Scott Morrison is trying to gaslight us | Kevin Rudd
					

The prime minister has displayed a breathtaking level of political complacency that borders on professional negligence




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> A triumph of the totally irrelevant and therefore a sure thing for the media bloodhounds.
> 
> So what if Kev had a quiet word with some Pfizer execs, he can't negotiate on behalf of the government.
> 
> ...



The problem is it doesn't just undermine the Government, it undermines Pfizer's contract process and integrity.
The ABC really should have checked with Pfizer before running the article, it could well have been a scam.
They just couldn't wait to drop the bucket of poo, poor form.


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)

So maybe Rudd can fix Scummos feud with China too


bellenuit said:


> So?


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

The problem was that AstraZeneca got lit up by concerns over the minuscule threat of clots. Meanwhile pfizer heart problems are ignored.
There's a constant negative feed in everything that Morrison has done. Very noticeable campaign.


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

Humid said:


> So maybe Rudd can fix Scummos feud with China too



Human centipede style with Xi you reckon?


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Human centipede style with Xi you reckon?



one for the team


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

Humid said:


> one for the team



I'd probably prefer that then scomo beating his chest like xenophobia warrior princess


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> The problem was that AstraZeneca got lit up by concerns over the minuscule threat of clots. Meanwhile pfizer heart problems are ignored.
> There's a constant negative feed in everything that Morrison has done. Very noticeable campaign.



Well list the positives


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

Humid said:


> Well list the positives



I'm not dead yet.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> "The only two parties involved in these agreements are Pfizer and the Australian government. "
> 
> Read it slowly SP, not that I am saying Rudd delivered but the fact he was asked to talk to Pfizer is extortionary but nothing to see here keep moving.



The fact is IFocus, the whole article could be BS, it would be pretty unprofessional and unethical for the head of Pfizer to circumvent due process, on the back of a call from an ex P.M of an insignificant country in the South Pacific.


----------



## moXJO (12 July 2021)

I'm not saying he isn't sht. Its noticeable how he disappears during crisis.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2021)

Humid said:


> $50 and robodebt,sports rorts,car park rorts,airport rorts and Im not in the business of envy....



Tell that to a 60 year old brickie, who has to do another 7 years to pension age. 🤣 
I don't think he will be sympathetic to you plea, i'm sure he doesn't think about car park rorts, airport rorts, sports rorts, the brickie just thinks my back is killing me and that ba$tard gave me two more years. 🤪


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Tell that to a 60 year old brickie, who has to do another 7 years to pension age. 🤣
> I don't think he will be sympathetic to you plea, i'm sure he doesn't think about car park rorts, airport rorts, sports rorts, the brickie just thinks my back is killing me and that ba$tard gave me two more years. 🤪



60 year old brickie was smart he wouldnt be eligible for a pension like me


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2021)

Humid said:


> 60 year old brickie was smart he wouldn't be eligible for a pension like me



That is exactly why labor has been losing, most workers aren't like you on $250k and don't live in the inner city.
But hey you keep ramping, unless they come up with policies that help 'normal' workers, you fifo bogans and the inner city elites won't get them over the line.


----------



## Humid (13 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is exactly why labor has been losing, most workers aren't like you on $250k and don't live in the inner city.
> But hey you keep ramping, unless they come up with policies that help 'normal' workers, you fifo bogans and the inner city elites won't get them over the line.



Aint on 250 and live semi rural but hey keep ramping me up I love it.
Normal workers these days can make good money if they want to live half their life in dongars
Anyway get on topic you flog


----------



## IFocus (13 July 2021)

Always nice to see at least one of our PM's on the job, anyone know where the current one is?


----------



## IFocus (13 July 2021)

How is the vaccines going any way?


Apparently we are at the front of the que.


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2021)

Humid said:


> So maybe Rudd can fix Scummos feud with China too



What, after his famous quote, "you have to watch the Chinese, or they will rat fluck you", or the other classic of abusing an RAAF flight attendant, because she didn't have his fairy bread sandwich, on the plane.
Oh yes, just the man to sort the problem out, he couldn't even sort his own parties feud, let alone Australia's. 🤣
Look at the Labor legends that walked after the Rudd/Gillard fiasco, Ferguson, Crean to name a couple.


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Always nice to see at least one of our PM's on the job, anyone know where the current one is?



Yes, probably trying to find a meth lab in Sydney, that can knock up doses of mRNA.😂


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> How is the vaccines going any way?
> 
> 
> Apparently we are at the front of the que.
> ...



And 90% of the population, still aren't putting their hand up for it, maybe marshal law would suit some? It would be exactly what the media are waiting for, then it would be instead of the Government not getting people vaccinated, to Government forces people to get vaccinated.
I wonder if everyone would then be cheering the Government? I bet China has nearly vaccinated everyone, so you want a leaf out of their book? There it isn't a case of oh I don't like this vaccine, to you will have what you are given, or else.


----------



## rederob (13 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> And 90% of the population, still aren't putting their hand up for it, maybe marshal law would suit some? It would be exactly what the media are waiting for, then it would be instead of the Government not getting people vaccinated, to Government forces people to get vaccinated.
> I wonder if everyone would then be cheering the Government? I bet China has nearly vaccinated everyone, so you want a leaf out of their book? There it isn't a case of oh I don't like this vaccine, to you will have what you are given, or else.



It really does not matter about how many hands are put up as we simply do not have an adequate vaccine supply at the moment.  I know @basilio is pumping AZ for all and sundry (note ATAGI advice yesterday remains for over 60s), but several of my under 40 year old relatives have been told they are in the queue for a first dose in October.  I expect the Pfizer advance could bring that date forward.
Our vaccination rate remains third world:





If I could travel to the third world for an inactivated vaccine I probably would.


----------



## bellenuit (13 July 2021)

Another example of opening up too soon. Unless herd immunity has been reached, vaccinations can't be relied on alone. 

Covid-19: Dutch PM Rutte 'sorry for easing restrictions too soon'​








						Covid-19: Dutch PM Rutte 'sorry for easing restrictions too soon'
					

Infection levels surged to their highest this year after most curbs were lifted three weeks ago.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## moXJO (13 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'd probably prefer that then scomo beating his chest like *xenophobia* warrior princess



Whoa that autocorrect was on point


----------



## IFocus (15 July 2021)

Just a reminder of the cluster ...

Government’s “appalling” error, rejects offer of 40 million Pfizer doses in July 2020​
“We could have had 40 million doses by the start of January and the same coverage rates of adults as seen in US, UK and Israel.”









						Government's “appalling” error, rejects offer of 40 million Pfizer doses in July 2020 - Michael West Media
					

Australia was given options for as many Pfizer doses as needed to be delivered in January, yet government officials turned down the offer




					www.michaelwest.com.au


----------



## Knobby22 (16 July 2021)

Some good news from our Prime Minister Scott Morrison.

"Some 175,000 vaccine doses were administered yesterday, that is a new record and it means in the space of just three days 500,000 doses of the vaccine had been administered across the country," Mr Morrison said.

"That means that already this month there have been just shy of 2 million vaccines, just shy of 2 million already in the month of July."

Maybe we can have everyone who wants to be fully vaccinated by the end of December and ready to open up?


----------



## rederob (17 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Some good news from our Prime Minister Scott Morrison.
> 
> "Some 175,000 vaccine doses were administered yesterday, that is a new record and it means in the space of just three days 500,000 doses of the vaccine had been administered across the country," Mr Morrison said.
> 
> ...



Agreed - good news.
But look where we stand with regard to vaccination rates in other countries:





Surely we can do as well as Canada which has been running over twice our rate from the outset.


----------



## bellenuit (17 July 2021)

U.S. COVID Deaths Are Rising Again. Experts Call It A 'Pandemic Of The Unvaccinated'​








						U.S. COVID Deaths Are Rising Again. Experts Call It A 'Pandemic Of The Unvaccinated'
					

Reversing a months-long downward trend, deaths from COVID-19 have begun rising steadily this week. More than 99% of the recent fatalities were among people who had not been vaccinated.




					www.npr.org
				




_"Unvaccinated Americans account for virtually all recent COVID-19 hospitalizations and deaths," said Jeff Zients, the White House COVID-19 response coordinator. "Each COVID-19 death is tragic, and those happening now are even more tragic because they are preventable."

More than 99% of recent deaths were among the unvaccinated, infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci said earlier this month on NBC's Meet the Press, while Walensky noted on Friday that unvaccinated people accounted for over 97% of hospitalizations._


----------



## Humid (19 July 2021)

Rudds shipment of Pfizer arrives today....
Waiting for scummo photo shoot


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2021)

Humid said:


> Rudds shipment of Pfizer arrives today....



His poor wife.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2021)

Humid said:


> Rudds shipment of Pfizer arrives today....
> Waiting for scummo photo shoot



Yes, now we will see the States ramp up the vaccination rate, all's well that ends well. 🤣


----------



## Knobby22 (19 July 2021)

I can't believe the twin brothers who were the removalists that spread Corona through Victoria went into isolation with their mother, now have had their mother die from it in her 50s!

Why didn't she go to hospital?
I think they really thought it was just a bad flu and everyone is overreacting. Completely reckless idiots.


----------



## wayneL (19 July 2021)

Watch to the end


----------



## wayneL (19 July 2021)

Interesting point:


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I can't believe the twin brothers who were the removalists that spread Corona through Victoria went into isolation with their mother, now have had their mother die from it in her 50s!
> 
> Why didn't she go to hospital?
> I think they really thought it was just a bad flu and everyone is overreacting. Completely reckless idiots.




I hope they get jail time.


----------



## Knobby22 (20 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Watch to the end




If you remember,  Trump was going to rush it out BEFORE the testing took place.

He got blocked by the drug companies involved who refused to do it.

Last point is a good one, would you take it if Trumps not taking it?

Once the testing did take place Trump was first in line to get the vaccine as was his right as President.

I'm disappointed you fell for this.
Quotes taken out of context aimed at the gullible. You know most of the deaths in the USA are from the unvaccinated, ordinary poorly educated people who fall for this crap while all the Fox staff(for instance), the wealthy and well connected have taken the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

It is getting personal for me. My cousin in Mildura who has health issues pulled out at the last minute from getting the Pfizer vaccine because she got convinced by the local cafe owner of all people that if she took it she would be monitored through the 5G network.


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> If you remember,  Trump was going to rush it out BEFORE the testing took place.
> 
> He got blocked by the drug companies involved who refused to do it.
> 
> ...



Look Knobby, if you are terrified of this virus as you clearly are, get vaccinated. If the risk reward (side effects Vs benefit) adds up, do it.

My point in posting the vid is not about the Vax itself, it is pointing out the politics surrounding it. 

For me it means digging deeper and like I have already said, I would take a Vax if the r/r added up for me. At this point however, I am trying to sort the facts from the politics and misinformation on both sides of the argument.

Incidentally, a have a lot of clients in the medical field. Many of them (though not all) are also hesitant for similar reasons, with some being a hard no.

Free choice bro.


----------



## rederob (20 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> If you remember,  Trump was going to rush it out BEFORE the testing took place.
> 
> He got blocked by the drug companies involved who refused to do it.
> 
> ...



Some people just don't get it @Knobby22, and idiots who tout the 5G conspiracy do serious damage to our education system!
Then you have the folk who ponder if anti-vaxxers are denied services shouldn't pay taxes.  Tell that the the parents of children who have died or were hospitalised because the anti-vaxxers kids gave them a deadly dose of disease at child care.  Les emotively, the logic is palpably poor in that the US experience is proof positive that anti-vaxxers are disproportionately impacting the health care system.  It is reminiscent of the argument about why smokers are heavily taxed.

The separate issue of risk reward ratio is an important consideration.  Given the death rate for people under 20 years of age, it's a line ball as to whether vaccination is safer than the disease.  However, it needs to be balanced by the propensity for those young people to spread the disease to their parents/grand parents, and if their other social interactions would exacerbate spread.  For older people it will depend on comorbidities, general health, and level of public contact, realising that the reward of vaccination increases at a greater rate with age.

It is intriguing that some people think vaccinations per se are political issues.  They are medical science issues.  The politicisation of vaccinations is an entirely different matter and has been a huge negative across the globe.  If anything in future is likely to again hamper pandemic responses it will be the incompetence of politicians, best demonstrated by most nearly everything Trump did in 2020.


----------



## moXJO (20 July 2021)

Vaccination doesn't stop you from spreading the virus though. I think it minimises the chances you may get it to then spread it. But you are still infectious. 

Seems the virus brings on a "I don't care" attitude as was noted in Israel that actually infected those that thought they were safe because of vaccination.

So there is lack of awareness in vaxxed and not vaxxed.


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2021)

On the plus side...


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2021)

LMAO


----------



## ghotib (20 July 2021)

Wayne's World, population 1 man + his reflection 

LMAO


----------



## bellenuit (20 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> LMAO





Perhaps they should include their brother attending primary school who can interject after the dumb*** says "but you can still get it" with "yes, you can still get it, but the likelihood of getting it is much lower, so you are less likely to be a spreader". What a moronic clip.


----------



## bellenuit (20 July 2021)

Kilmeade being Kilmeade.


----------



## Craton (20 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> If you remember,  Trump was going to rush it out BEFORE the testing took place.
> 
> He got blocked by the drug companies involved who refused to do it.
> 
> ...



Wow! That is not only disturbing to read but sad for your cousin.

(With tongue planted firmly in cheek)
Any chance of getting some hot stock tips from that cafe owner?
I mean, this person is obviously "...in the know."


----------



## macca (20 July 2021)

This sort of info should be in the MSM, everyone has the right to be informed of expert opinion which disagrees with the people selling the current vaccines.

He states that just because you are vaccinated does not mean you are bulletproof, he claims the current vaccines stop our natural immunity from working and the variant mutations will evade the vaccines

This means that vaccinated people are more likely to become seriously ill IF they get a new Covid variant.

He is most emphatic that the current Vaccines are a recipe for disaster and insists we need to create a different type of vaccine

 Geert Vanden Bossche, DMV, PhD,independent virologist and vaccine expert, formerly employed at GAVI and The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

To all authorities, scientists and experts around the world, to whom this concerns: the entire world population.I am all but an antivaxxer. As a scientist I do not usually appeal to any platform of this kind to make a stand on vaccine-related topics. As a dedicated virologist and vaccine expert I only make an exception when health authorities allow vaccines to be administered in ways that threaten public health, most certainly when scientific evidence is being ignored. The present extremely critical situation forces me to spread this emergency call. As the unprecedented extent of human interventon in the Covid-19-pandemic is now at risk of resulting in a global catastrophe without equal, this call cannot sound loudly and strongly enough.


----------



## bellenuit (20 July 2021)

macca said:


> This means that vaccinated people are more likely to become seriously ill IF they get a new Covid variant.




This flies in the face of the results back to date. It has been found that vaccinated people are also protected from the new variants as they spread in the community. The Delta variant is now the dominant variant in the US, yet the vaccinations people have been taking were developed against the original strain. So, according to your post, vaccinated people in the US should be more likely to be hospitalised and/or die that unvaccinated people when they get infected with the Delta virus. Yet the facts show the opposite. It is unvaccinated people that make up the majority of hospitalisations and deaths (97% or thereabouts)


----------



## macca (20 July 2021)

I agree that the data being released is showing that and for now it may be right, but given the manipulation that has been used in the past to create the desired data results I will wait and see.

I was actually referring to his opinion in the letter but as you know I am an advocate of continued vigilance, vaccinated or not.

My reading of the rather long letter leads me to think that the coming northern winter may see a repeat of the last one, let us hope not


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> results back *to date*.



This is why we need time to see longer term effects.

*If*, as proposed by some researchers that there could be deleterious effects later, it would be an unprecedented catastrophe.

...and we are *all* hoping that is not so.


----------



## bellenuit (20 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> This is why we need time to see longer term effects.




Yes, the long term effects are a great unknown, but that equally applies to vaccination vs no vaccination. 

We can really only go on current best information and vaccinating is overwhelmingly more favourable to not vaccinating in the short term and this has been borne out by results to date.


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> This is why we need time to see longer term effects.
> 
> *If*, as proposed by some researchers that there could be deleterious effects later, it would be an unprecedented catastrophe.
> 
> ...and we are *all* hoping that is not so.



That is the main reason I decided on the AZ rather than waiting for the Pfizer, from my understanding the AZ is developed on an fairly established protocol, whereas the Pfizer is new technology. I believe the AZ will have to be tweaked to be affective against new strains, whereas the Pfizer relies on the body tweaking itself, a little bit too futuristic for me ATM.
My reasoning may prove wrong, but I am trying to get a holiday in.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is the main reason I decided on the AZ rather than waiting for the Pfizer, from my understanding the AZ is developed on an fairly established protocol, whereas the Pfizer is new technology. I believe the AZ will have to be tweaked to be affective against new strains, whereas the Pfizer relies on the body tweaking itself, a little bit too futuristic for me ATM.
> My reasoning may prove wrong, but I am trying to get a holiday in.




I think this is one reason the gov't doesn't want to discuss vaccination compensation schemes like other countries have.

They don't want to take the risk that the vaccines may have long term side effects that they will be responsible for.

The way the vaccines have been rushed through leaves a lot of room for unknown side effects.


----------



## Humid (20 July 2021)

People have been eating chicken nuggets,hotdogs and salamis for years and are now worried about whats in a vaccine....


----------



## IFocus (20 July 2021)

Vaccine bypass has been talked about and is greatly feared due to catching out large populations but  what I have seen is that its the change in the virus that causes the vaccine not to work such as the current variants reducing current vaccines effectiveness. 

Knobby talked about some one not choosing Vax because of advice from a cafe.  

I have relatives who all have serious underlying conditions  surrounded by family who are medical professionals urging Vax and they have chosen to listen to some unqualified peanut on the web because he says it will affect their cells and its better to get the virus.

Beggars belief.


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2021)

Humid said:


> People have been eating chicken nuggets,hotdogs and salamis for years and are now worried about whats in a vaccine....



That is truer than people believe.
How many drugs are pumped into chooks, egg to bread in weeks.


----------



## moXJO (20 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> We can really only go on current best information and vaccinating is overwhelmingly more favourable to not vaccinating in the short term and this has been borne out by results to date.



This pretty much sums it up. At this stage it is better to vaccinate off the data we have. 
No idea on the long term.


----------



## basilio (21 July 2021)

This is the impact  of misinformation and lies around COVID .

_“I’m not accepting any vaccinated people due to reports of adverse reactions,” the host said. “It’s also transmitting to unvaccinated people and causing them to become unwell. I’m afraid it’s way too experimental at this stage and I need to protect my other guests. I’m so sorry for any inconvenience.”

This claim has been thoroughly debunked. Covid-19 vaccines do not “shed” because they do not contain a live element.









						Airbnb suspends Victorian host who rejected couple for receiving Covid vaccine
					

Host repeated false claim coronavirus vaccine ‘transmitting to unvaccinated people’




					www.theguardian.com
				



_


----------



## basilio (21 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> I have relatives who all have serious underlying conditions surrounded by family who are medical professionals urging Vax and they have chosen to listen to some unqualified peanut on the web because he says it will affect their cells and its better to get the virus.




Which is* exactly *the same situation as my family. 
But then the experience on ASF  also mirrors that situation.


----------



## IFocus (21 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Which is* exactly *the same situation as my family.
> But then the experience on ASF  also mirrors that situation.





What baffles me is they are highly educated well read yet act and make such an emotional decision, I measure that by how emotional they get about the issue when discussed rather than applying cold clinical logic.    

The world has become obsessed with conspiracy BS.


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2021)

Humid said:


> People have been eating chicken nuggets,hotdogs and salamis for years and are now worried about whats in a vaccine....



This is an excellent point.

I think it has been been convincingly shown that obesity and type 2 diabetes is one of the most important comorbidities in covid-19 hospitalisations and deaths. I think it is also been convincingly shown having adequate sunlight, vis-a-vis vitamin d (and zinc?) is also extremely important in being able to fight the disease.

IOW, getting healthy is super important in being able to survive... But just covid-19 but also just in general life.

But do we see any campaigns from the medical fascists imploring us to get healthy. 

Nope.

Such encouragement from the government towards the population would also have massive benefits irrespective of what is going on with the pandemic.

Yet, all I can hear are crickets.

This is the basis of my covid vaccination scepticism. Although I am 60 in a few days I am in rude health and extremely fit (even if I am a bit too fond of Guinness 😁). 

To belabour the point, I am not anti Vax in general and and certainly think that we should take steps to protect the vulnerable etc etc and nauseum.

However I did think that it is particularly important, in light of everything discussed above that the government could encourage the population to become more healthy, as hospitalisations and deaths are *almost exclusively among the unhealthy.


----------



## The Triangle (21 July 2021)

Humid said:


> People have been eating chicken nuggets,hotdogs and salamis for years and are now worried about whats in a vaccine....



Yeah...  And we now know after years of research that eating that junk is probably going to give us cancer and can _choose _not to eat it...


----------



## basilio (22 July 2021)

The Triangle said:


> Yeah...  And we now know after years of research that eating that junk is probably going to give us cancer and can _choose _not to eat it...




And if one person or a hundred or 1000 chose to eat badly and get cancer they fall off the perch.

*But if they don't vaccinate against COVID not only do they run the risk of  falling sick or dying but they also spread the disease. *

On top of that it's also clear that the more the COVID spreads the more rapid the mutations which make it more infectious and potentially beats a vaccine. 

There is always a balance between individual responsibility for health vs the overall public health aspects. This was the argument around smoking,  .05 driving legislation and  public health regulations stopping people from spreading infectious diseases either deliberately or unwittingly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I liked this approach to vaccination from a doctor in Alabama.

_Dr Cobia works at Grandview Medical Centre in Birmingham, Alabama, the state with the country’s lowest percentage of fully vaccinated people (33.7 per cent).

According to Alabama’s Department of Public Health, 94 per cent of the people hospitalised with covid there since April and 96 per cent of those who’ve died have been unvaccinated.

“I’m admitting young, healthy people to the hospital with very serious covid infections,” Dr Cobia wrote in a heartwrenching Facebook post this week.

“One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.

*“A few days later when I call time of death, I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honour their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same.

“They cry. And they tell me they didn’t know. They thought it was a hoax. They thought it was political. They thought because they had a certain blood type or a certain skin colour they wouldn’t get as sick. They thought it was ‘just the flu’.

“But they were wrong. And they wish they could go back. But they can’t. So they thank me and they go get the vaccine. And I go back to my office, write their death note, and say a small prayer that this loss will save more lives.”*_









						‘It’s too late’: US doctor’s confronting post
					

As the United States grapples with the surging Delta variant of Covid-19, medical experts across the country are desperately trying to convince hesitant Americans to get vaccinated.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## basilio (22 July 2021)




----------



## basilio (22 July 2021)




----------



## Knobby22 (22 July 2021)

I note Fox is now pro Vax. Sudden shift.


----------



## macca (22 July 2021)

People dying after the vaccine does not help "the narrative" does it, second one this week









						Man, 44, and woman, 48, die after AstraZeneca vaccine
					

Therapeutic Goods Administration says the 48-year-old suffered confirmed thrombocytopenia syndrome and died after receiving her first dose.




					au.yahoo.com


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2021)

basilio said:


> And if one person or a hundred or 1000 chose to eat badly and get cancer they fall off the perch.
> 
> *But if they don't vaccinate against COVID not only do they run the risk of  falling sick or dying but they also spread the disease. *
> 
> ...



But of course marketing is given a free pass in enabling companies to spread the disease of poor diet, alcohol, smoking... And even excess reliance on pharmaceuticals.

Approximately 450 people died in Australia today, as what happens every single day... The great proportion of which have died from heart disease cancer diabetes and what not... All largely preventable.

And yet we have all lost our sh¹t over 1 >80 year old dying purportedly from Covid.

Let's all get a sense of proportion shall we?


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2021)

Anybody surprised?


----------



## bellenuit (22 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I note Fox is now pro Vax. Sudden shift.



This might explain it. The Murdoch's are worried...


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I note Fox is now pro Vax. Sudden shift.



I thought they were pro vax because Trump actually got the thing off the ground. I haven't actually been following the left/right alternating positions.


----------



## bellenuit (22 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I thought they were pro vax because Trump actually got the thing off the ground. I haven't actually been following the left/right alternating positions.





The Pfizer vaccine was part funded by the German government. Pfizer was reluctant to take US funding because of the likelihood that the whole issue would be politicised. Trump's contribution was to urge a speedy search for a vaccine, which is pretty much what every government and every person (except for anti-vaxxers) in the world wanted.

His stance throughout all of 2020 was ambivalent, being pro-vaccine at times and anti-vaccine at other times. He wouldn't even admit (for a while at least) that he himself had been vaccinated. He is now discouraging vaccination, linking it to some Democrat plot or other.

Fox was equally as ambivalent, but had been up until a few weeks ago very anti-vax. Not so much saying that the vaccine is bad (although some anchors did go that far), but doing their damnest to discourage people from vaccinating, using all the silly arguments that we have been hearing from the most militant anti-vax crowd.

The people who got the COVID vaccine off the ground were the pharmaceutical companies who turned their resources to getting a vaccine developed often in collaboration with universities and government bodies like the CDC who assisted in the regulatory framework and officiating the testing (an organisation much attacked by the GOP).


----------



## Knobby22 (23 July 2021)

History repeats.

As Gladys has followed Dan's disaster, each action too small and too late,  she will soon have to take the final step which is a hard lockdown for 3 weeks.
I predict she will make the announcement mid/late next week if she is smart or a week later if she still hasn't grasped the reality.

Its will be the last gasp to stop the spread.

Curfew at 8pm or similar.
Big fines for holding private parties and to everyone at the party.

All stores except supermarkets and chemists closed,
Only way to get goods is by delivery or pick up from the store by pre ordering externally,


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> The Pfizer vaccine was part funded by the German government. Pfizer was reluctant to take US funding because of the likelihood that the whole issue would be politicised. Trump's contribution was to urge a speedy search for a vaccine, which is pretty much what every government and every person (except for anti-vaxxers) in the world wanted.
> 
> His stance throughout all of 2020 was ambivalent, being pro-vaccine at times and anti-vaccine at other times. He wouldn't even admit (for a while at least) that he himself had been vaccinated. He is now discouraging vaccination, linking it to some Democrat plot or other.
> 
> ...



Seems like parts of that are revisionism, but I'm in too lazy a mood to argue.
'Lockdown laziness' is the worst kind of laziness.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> History repeats.
> 
> As Gladys has followed Dan's disaster, each action too small and too late,  she will soon have to take the final step which is a hard lockdown for 3 weeks.
> I predict she will make the announcement mid/late next week if she is smart or a week later if she still hasn't grasped the reality.
> ...



I'm surprised the numbers haven't budged either way.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm surprised the numbers haven't budged either way.



Cases in the community when testing took place are going up as tracing isn't keeping up, its only a slow rise but NSW is losing the battle.
I note Gladys has pulled the national emergency card- she is thinking about a hard lockdown.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

More plot thickenin'


----------



## bellenuit (23 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> More plot thickenin'





If I read your chart correctly, there was an increase of about 85,000 serious  adverse events due to the vaccine, of which about 11,000 represented an increase in deaths. This compares to over 625,000 deaths due to COVID (assuming US only) and presumably a massive amount of serious adverse events (I don't have the data, but one would assume serious adverse events would be a large multiple of the number of deaths).

Things aren't looking too great for those who haven't taken the vaccine.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> More plot thickenin'



More like a totally misleading thick clot's posting because it does not  accurately reflect covid vaccine data.
Direct from VAERS as of 21 July:

*Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare*. More than 339 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 19, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,207 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. *Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. *A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines.
So covid deaths are * +4000 *fewer than in Smalley's table!
Moreover, for vaccinated people the death rate is less than 2 per 100000.  However, as noted above, the actual cause of death may have had nothing to do with receiving the vaccine.
The other high numbers are a natural extension of the data as it must be the case that as more people are vaccinated the number of reported adverse events attributable to vaccinated people will increase.  The maths underpinning this are explained here.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> If I read your chart correctly, there was an increase of about 85,000 serious  adverse events due to the vaccine, of which about 11,000 represented an increase in deaths. This compares to over 625,000 deaths due to COVID (assuming US only) and presumably a massive amount of serious adverse events (I don't have the data, but one would assume serious adverse events would be a large multiple of the number of deaths).
> 
> Things aren't looking too great for those who haven't taken the vaccine.



Well, only really if you're unfortunate enough to be crook already... Or lived a life eating sugar and trans fats to excess.

The rest of us have no need to worry.


----------



## bellenuit (23 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well, only really if you're unfortunate enough to be crook already... Or lived a life eating sugar and trans fats to excess.
> 
> The rest of us have no need to worry.




Have you data to back that up?


----------



## Belli (23 July 2021)

rederob said:


> More like a totally misleading thick clot's posting because it does not accurately reflect covid vaccine data.




Doing the rounds is some wacko in Australia doing similar misleading BS with the Department of Health snap shot data.


----------



## Belli (23 July 2021)

Took me a little bit with a web search but here is the search engine





__





						The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) Request
					






					wonder.cdc.gov
				




Note the heavy disclaimers part of which are:

"Healthcare providers, vaccine manufacturers, and the public can submit reports to VAERS. While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. *The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable.* *Most reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases*. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind."


----------



## divs4ever (23 July 2021)

state sponsored euthansia ( both the virus response and the vaccine roll-out )

i trust the science , it is the scientists i don't trust


----------



## divs4ever (23 July 2021)

so who puts out 'the accurate data'  .. and THAT is the problem 

 if they can't get mask guidance correct when do you start believing them


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Have you data to back that up?



Jesus man, it's everywhere. As I come across it again, I will post.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2021)

Belli said:


> Doing the rounds is some wacko in Australia doing similar misleading BS with the Department of Health snap shot data.



It's hard to make the maths simple but because about 70% of the adult population is fully vaccinated there is a very strong chance that their cohort will increasingly add to all the VAERS categories.  This must be the case because a 100% vaccination rate would account for every single adverse event.
If people do not understand how the numbers work then they will be conned.


----------



## Belli (23 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> so who puts out 'the accurate data'  .. and THAT is the problem
> 
> if they can't get mask guidance correct when do you start believing them




Well, use the keyboard to go and find out if you are as interested as all that.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

Belli said:


> Well, use the keyboard to go and find out if you are as interested as all that.



Hah! Pick your echo chamber dude!


----------



## Belli (23 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> state sponsored euthansia ( both the virus response and the vaccine roll-out )
> 
> i trust the science , it is the scientists i don't trust




OK if that is your view, here is a list of the members of the ATAGI.  Now you can write and say you believe they are an untrustworthy bunch. Their response,could be interesting.  If you do contact I feel it will turn out to be a Malcom Roberts v Brian Cox event which will be very entertaining.









						Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI)
					

The Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) advises the Minister for Health on the National Immunisation Program (NIP) and other immunisation issues.




					www.health.gov.au


----------



## IFocus (23 July 2021)

So can I get this right? COVID deaths are people who died with COVID and Vax deaths are people died because of the vax...

And its only the fat people who get ill all the rest are fakers... right?


----------



## rederob (23 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> So can I get this right? COVID deaths are people who died with COVID and Vax deaths are people died because of the vax...
> 
> And its only the fat people who get ill all the rest are fakers... right?



Vax deaths under US's VAERS data *can be from anything after they have been vaccinated*.
Fewer than 2 in each 100000 who die from covid have been vaccinated.


----------



## divs4ever (23 July 2021)

follow the money

 i started watching the virus as soon as the Chinese reacted in Wuhan

 for those that study Sun Tzu  you will know a quote

' all war is based on deception '

 so did the Chinese think they were attacked with a bio-weapon  ??

 i don't know for sure but they certainly acted like that

 and ever since that we have had deception and distortion from many sides

 and since 'science' has become a casualty of this war also  , you are going to have to work stuff out for yourselves


----------



## Belli (24 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> follow the money
> 
> i started watching the virus as soon as the Chinese reacted in Wuhan
> 
> ...




I don't expect you will watch this or, if you do, you will reject the conclusions as it will mean you would need to acknowledge your beliefs have no foundation.


----------



## Knobby22 (24 July 2021)

Big Pharma demagnitised her so their secret plan didn't get discovered. 








						Woman fails to prove the vaccine made her magnetic
					

CLEVELAND, Ohio (WOIO) - A woman who identified herself as a nurse practitioner student tried to defend an Ohio doctor’s unproven claim by p...




					tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

well i DID watch the video , and explore some theories not touched on in it 

 fact 1. the virus was ( officially) discovered in China  , in humans  and we now know  very few people get badly ill from it when they catch it ( or the PCR test is complete rubbish )  , now a Chinese claim is ORIGINALLY Wuhan had TWO different strains , one that was highly damaging and caused a much higher rate of death  , and the milder version that has spread around the world  , the Chinese CLAIM to have contained the very nasty type  , but IF it existed at all  , it is more likely  that it mostly killed itself off and was out-competed by the milder form 

a normally discredited journalist David Icke , claims 5G radiation  is a BIG factor in the severity of the virus  , that has been underesearched because most of the world WANTS 5G to run 'the internet  of things '  a bit like a 1930's scientist telling people petrol engine exhaust gases are dangerous , too many people invested in the tech to care 

 now given that Sars COV 2 has a very low death rate ( compared to PCR positive tests ) how long was it circulating in the public before the 'official' discovery  ??  i believe the death rate is well below 1 in 10,000 and 4 or 5  deaths a month in a city like Wuhan  would probably go unnoticed unless one of the victims was someone important ( a doctor's relative  , or a high-ranking official )

 IF the virus was released in China did it come from THAT government lab , China still has some hostile factions internally , and Taiwan is not devoid of talented people , if the virus had of 'escaped' the Chinese are more likely to disappear the responsible people OR publicly execute them as enemies of the state  , instead the doctor releasing the find met an untimely death

 so did the Chinese false flag it ?? ( not my first choice but not impossible ) several other nations have done that to their pepole , why not China 

 ANOTHER interesting quirk  , remember in the early days cats , tigers , lions, ferrets and minks were all catching the virus  , why aren't they catching it now , i am unaware of any animal vaccine  for the virus ( these animals could allegedly spread the virus last year  , but are not a concern currently .. and THAT would destroy the asymptomatic theory  , or old tom has already spread the virus for miles and nobody has noticed )

 so what we do know is there is more disinformation ( deliberate misdirection ) than accurate information  and it isn't just coming from one source ( say  , China )

 since that is the case we MUST assume war  (we just aren't sure who is attacking us )

 this assumption does NOT rule out a natural virus ( but i am on the man-altered bandwagon  , you only had to change 0.1% of an existing virus  .. that is what 'gain of function'  is all about  making the virus a little bit better in a bad way )  an enemy could easily hijack  a naturally occuring outbreak  for their own purposes


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Big Pharma demagnitised her so their secret plan didn't get discovered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 no fraud proven in the 2020 election proven yet either 

 MAYBE the magnetism goes away after 3 months and THAT is why you need boosters


----------



## Belli (24 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i DID watch the video




I could not be bothered copying the unsubstantiated drivel which followed but nevertheless thank you for confirming what I believed would be the result.


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

you're welcome


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> So can I get this right? COVID deaths are people who died with COVID and Vax deaths are people died because of the vax...
> 
> And its only the fat people who get ill all the rest are fakers... right?



IOW, how many fallacious arguments can I shoe-horn into two short paragraphs?


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

Belli said:


> I could not be bothered copying the unsubstantiated drivel which followed but nevertheless thank you for confirming what I believed would be the result.



That someone might no slavishly agree with you?


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

well i THINK i had it  late December 2019 ( in Brisbane )  , but there was no testing avalable then  i hadn't been to Wuhan ( ever ) wouldn't have a clue if i have been in contact with someone who went to Wuhan ( i have never checked everyones  passports )  , but PLENTY of Asians at the mall when i was Xmas shopping  and a friend  stayed over  ,  she was not so well but she came fron Canada  and was young and healthy 

 so by July 2020   someone other people worried they had it  so i got the PCR test  and months too late of course it tested negitive  probably even for the antigen test 

 now in my health condition you would have thought i would have rushed to hospital  , but while it was very unpleasant for two months  , i have been much worse at other times ( like the mid 1980's )

 following all the 'renegade ' doctors and scientists  i think what happened was the cocktail of medications i was already on  , was enough to push the needle my way (  the maximum-strength blood-thinners and inhaled steriods  should have helped according to discredits physicians )

 i should probably put more faith in my currents doctors  but the 'acceptable doctors'  took 62 years to discover i had major heart damage  , and the problem WASN'T in my mind 

 i think it is amusing now their fixation is trying to talk me into the vaccines  LOL after a year and a have of mixing with sick people

(  doctors surgeries , hospitals , chemists patholgy labs  X-ray clinics ) i have probably already been in contact with the virus ( i have a mask exemption )


----------



## rederob (24 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> fact 1. the virus was ( officially) discovered in China  , in humans  and we now know  very few people get badly ill from it when they catch it



About 2 cases in a 100 die, so that's not encouraging.  Worse, long covid variously affects upward of 10% of all cases and some people infected last year still have not recovered.   Death seems inconsistent with your claim.


divs4ever said:


> ...  now a Chinese claim is ORIGINALLY Wuhan had TWO different strains , one that was highly damaging and caused a much higher rate of death  , and the milder version that has spread around the world  ,



That's not true at all.


divs4ever said:


> now given that Sars COV 2 has a very low death rate ( compared to PCR positive tests )



About one chance in 50 of dying and greater than one chance in ten of suffering long term symptoms!


divs4ever said:


> i believe the death rate is well below 1 in 10,000 and 4 or 5  deaths a month in a city like Wuhan  would probably go unnoticed unless one of the victims was someone important ( a doctor's relative  , or a high-ranking official )



No, patients went into intensive care with a disease of unknown origin in December 2019, so it was never going to be missed.


divs4ever said:


> IF the virus was released in China did it come from THAT government lab , China still has some hostile factions internally , and Taiwan is not devoid of talented people , if the virus had of 'escaped' the Chinese are more likely to disappear the responsible people OR publicly execute them as enemies of the state  , instead the doctor releasing the find met an untimely death



Baseless conspiracy theory anyone?


divs4ever said:


> so what we do know is there is more disinformation ( deliberate misdirection ) than accurate information  and it isn't just coming from one source ( say  , China )



Absolute bunkum.  Your claims are based on what you do not know rather than what anyone looking would be able to find out for themselves.


divs4ever said:


> ... since that is the case we MUST assume war  (we just aren't sure who is attacking us )



Now you are getting laughable.


divs4ever said:


> ... this assumption does NOT rule out a natural virus ( but i am on the man-altered bandwagon  , you only had to change 0.1% of an existing virus  .. that is what 'gain of function'  is all about  making the virus a little bit better in a bad way )



Nope, you have zip knowledge of virology and what you have said is totally removed from reality.


divs4ever said:


> ... an enemy could easily hijack  a naturally occuring outbreak  for their own purposes



If they did, it would be MERS or Ebola and not a virus that had a low case fatality rate.


----------



## Belli (24 July 2021)

I do not expect others to agree with me.  Far from it.

A number of responses refuting evidence based scientific information are simply displaying denial psychology at work.


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> well i THINK i had it  late December 2019 ( in Brisbane )  , but there was no testing avalable then  i hadn't been to Wuhan ( ever ) wouldn't have a clue if i have been in contact with someone who went to Wuhan ( i have never checked everyones  passports )  , but PLENTY of Asians at the mall when i was Xmas shopping  and a friend  stayed over  ,  she was not so well but she came fron Canada  and was young and healthy
> 
> so by July 2020   someone other people worried they had it  so i got the PCR test  and months too late of course it tested negitive  probably even for the antigen test
> 
> ...



I think Mrs and I ***may*** have had it way back in early 2020. There's no way to prove that unless I go and get a swab shoved up my nostril, which I'm not so very keen on having done.

Lots of colleagues feel the same, especially overseas.


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

Belli said:


> I do not expect others to agree with me.  Far from it.
> 
> A number of responses refuting evidence based scientific information are simply displaying denial psychology at work.



Scientific information?

Scientists disagree on many of these issues. EG PCR tests, spike proteins in a whole bunch of other stuff as well.

I agree there is a whole host of denial psychology at work, but I don't think it all goes one way. If there is any cognitive bias which all of us must be careful of is our bias blind spot.


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

rederob said:


> About 2 cases in a 100 die, so that's not encouraging.  Worse, long covid variously affects upward of 10% of all cases and some people infected last year still have not recovered.   Death seems inconsistent with your claim.
> 
> That's not true at all.
> 
> ...



 well MERS kills to many too quickly  , so say you dispersed at in Brisbane  even our medical authourites  would work they have a problem  within a month ( took them at LEAST two months with this virus and they are STILL trying to get a grip )

 Ebola is REALLY nasty but highly visible ( well the victims are  )

 so the scare factor would be UP but maybe only for a short time 

 but look at this virus global trade totally disrupted  , economies smashed , huge financial resources diverted  from other projected  as a weapon it has worked very well 

 the world didn't stop for MERS , SARS or Ebola  and the deaths per thousand was MUCH higher   and we have had outbreaks of them  ,

 now were SARS , MERS and Ebola bio-weapons .. i don't remember anyone asking that question at the time 

 if you aren't looking you won't find much


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

and yes you are correct i do NOT hack into secret databases  , i do NOT monitor people's email accounts 

 you CAN find most of what i post and draw your own conclusions 

 UNLIKE the government i will not censor you 

 cheers


----------



## rederob (24 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> I think Mrs and I ***may*** have had it way back in early 2020. There's no way to prove that unless I go and get a swab shoved up my nostril, which I'm not so very keen on having done.
> 
> Lots of colleagues feel the same, especially overseas.



Antibodies would be in your blood, so a pinprick sample is all that would be needed.
And given blood samples from people in America back in December 2019 had CoV-SARS-2 antibodies the virus is likely to have been present there in November 2019 at latest.
I also know a lady who returned from holidays in Italy (in the region where covid ran riot in early 2020) who, on returning to Australia in late 2019, was laid up in intensive care for weeks (several months in hospital all up) with an illness her *doctors could not diagnose*.  At that time covid-19 was unknown in medicine, but all her symptoms were consistent with covid-19 and to this day she is sure she had it.


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Antibodies would be in your blood, so a pinprick sample is all that would be needed.
> And given blood samples from people in America back in December 2019 had CoV-SARS-2 antibodies the virus is likely to have been present there in November 2019 at latest.
> I also know a lady who returned from holidays in Italy (in the region where covid ran riot in early 2020) who, on returning to Australia in late 2019, was laid up in intensive care for weeks (several months in hospital all up) with an illness her *doctors could not diagnose*.  At that time covid-19 was unknown in medicine, but all her symptoms were consistent with covid-19 and to this day she is sure she had it.



and given the delay in a PCR test  taken outside of a hospital about the same time or quicker for the results  ( i am VERY surprised the antibody tests  weren't used more often )

 and i agree there were  some strange illnesses in the devoloped world  before December 2019  , so even if the virus came from the Chinese Lab  , when did it happen weeks before the virus was announced or months earlier


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> well MERS kills to many too quickly  , so say you dispersed at in Brisbane  even our medical authourites  would work they have a problem  within a month ( took them at LEAST two months with this virus and they are STILL trying to get a grip )
> 
> Ebola is REALLY nasty but highly visible ( well the victims are  )
> 
> ...



Sars-cov-2 it's most certainly a bioweapon but not in the sense of what most people understand. Our thinking of a bioweapon is something which will selectively take out, or disable the population of an opponent.

The weaponization here is not so much in the virus itself, it is in the propaganda surrounding it and therefore the government response.

The terror in the majority of the population is palpable (and I must add absolutely unjustified). They have managed to get each of us to treat each other as some sort of leper even going to the point of suggesting that we should not even talk to each other.

It has even managed to divide families, even marriages.

I'm lucky that both me and she who must be obeyed are on the same page, but I know several couples that are not and consequently there relationships are suffering.

Outside of my marriage, but within our extended family it is the same, there is tribalistic division. this voice exists of course I want political lines but it is always in the spirit of debate and good humour. Now it is along the lines of a more deeply divided scrimmage.

"They" and the the "virus" have done their job very well.

The weapon therefore, is psychological rather than biological (at this point anyway and watch this space) and in no place has this been better epitomised than here on ASF.


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

lifted from another site

Antibodies may start to fall six weeks after second coronavirus jab – study
https://au.yahoo.com/news/antibodies-may-start-fall-six-162549969.html
so you might think about being vaccinated about 4 months before you plan to die .. so the vaccine makers aren't embarrassed
https://topstocks.com.au/members/salvation/posts


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2021)

All is good, we have pre booked 85 million doses for the next two years, this problem with supply wont be an issue, as long as the doses are for the current variant.lol


----------



## divs4ever (24 July 2021)

i am willing to let folks have mine  

 i grew up in 'the measles party ' era 

 in that era local mums would  hear little Billy  had some bug and organise a party to A. cheer up the sick child  and B. let all the children be exposed while young with healthy immune systems .

 it wasn't until polio hit our area that the mums ditched the parties  , polio looked nasty and they didn't want their kids crippled 

 George Carlin  has a very rude sketch on cleanliness  and immune systems  which did show how poor people survived disease outbreaks ( most of the time )

 with those vaccines  that are ordered .. .. what is the use-by-date  .. apparently even vaccines have an expiry data


----------



## Knobby22 (25 July 2021)

NSW women in her 30s with no pre existing conditions has died from the new covid variant.
This will concentrate minds.


----------



## divs4ever (25 July 2021)

will there be an autopsy  ??

 that helps interested doctors a lot


----------



## Belli (25 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> will there be an autopsy  ??
> 
> that helps interested doctors a lot




In making that statement, you do know the actual post mortem process to be applied and why?  I doubt you do know.


----------



## divs4ever (25 July 2021)

i think so , my mother went through that  after her unexpectant  , but peaceful demise ,

 why for the young  lady  .. well this virus has a reputation  of injuring those with weakened immune systems 

 this lady  is asserted to be in reasonable health before  her death  , what has changed with her virus encounter 

 if a healthy young lady is at increased risk   , are very young babies at risk as well ??


----------



## Belli (25 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i think so , my mother went through that after her unexpectant , but peaceful demise ,
> 
> why for the young lady .. well this virus has a reputation of injuring those with weakened immune systems




Sigh*  Very sorry about your mother but you still didn't understand what I was referred to.  There are different post mortems.  A web search of NSW Health (as that is the State in which the lady died) will provide the information.

In regard to your second sentence *IF *you bothered to search the information you will discover the lady had no co-morbidity factors. But don't allow your bias to stand in the way of the facts.


----------



## divs4ever (25 July 2021)

that was years ago , after the autopsy  some causes were discovered that surprised both me and some of her close friends 

 yes i DID see no-comorbity  but if they don't look  they don't find stuff .. my doctors took over 60 years to notice i had a major heart problem 

 even if perfectly healthy  it might be wise to work out 'why her'   thousands of other healthy young people have recovered nicely without intensive care


----------



## divs4ever (25 July 2021)

i absolutely have a bias .. it is called SCIENCE  the exploraration and eternal search for knowledge ( not the consensus driven egoflation  we are seeing now )

sadly we see real scientists buried under a consensus narrative  by those how live on past-built reputations that MIGHT be ill-founded

  if we ( any real scientist  ) doesn't ask questions and explore anomalies  , we won't become any wiser


----------



## divs4ever (25 July 2021)

and even sadder is here we are a group of traders and investors  , ignoring oddities   when those strange events are our best chance to make a better  profit ( or avoid  a bad outcome )

 say this virus is suddenly more deadly to the 25-45 year old group  , how will that effect the local economy  , or have we totally given up on that ,   in our investing strategies ??


----------



## Belli (25 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i absolutely have a bias .. it is called SCIENCE the exploraration and eternal search for knowledge




A synopsis how science works.

Make a guess (an intelligent one not a random guess), compute the consequences of that guess and then test it against experiment.  If the guess is wrong, it is wrong and start again.  If not wrong, it will be the most highly probable event.  Science does not intend to prove what is  right. 

Going around websites is not science or knowledge.  It is not research.  It is a random collection of generally useless information. 

No further comments. Have fun.


----------



## divs4ever (25 July 2021)

i go around websites and THINK about what i read and hear  ,   and THEN find engineers interested in the topic to see how they crunch the data 

 if i didn't think .. i would be glued to the TV news , not here discussing topics and views 

 cheers


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2021)

NSW latest, 172 cases, only 19 in isolation. I said today was the day when Gladys would get real.
Honestly, if she doesn't soon there will be no end to this. Graph showing yesterdays figures below. Today would add another spike.
Before this she did an excellent job. Is her health advisor not up to scratch?


----------



## divs4ever (27 July 2021)

seems to be a wider agenda 

 some might  have noticed the approval to use the PCR test to detect Covid will be withdrawn at the end of this year in the US

07/21/2021: Lab Alert: Changes to CDC RT-PCR for SARS-CoV-2 Testing
https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/...-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> seems to be a wider agenda
> 
> some might  have noticed the approval to use the PCR test to detect Covid will be withdrawn at the end of this year in the US
> 
> ...



My read is that  the emergency authorization for this tests is withdrawn and the labs must now  use  the FDA proved and approved tests of which a wide range and choice has now been developed.
After all the emergency authorization was just that, while the tests were being developed.
That original test can't even tell the difference between variants. Pretty useless now.


----------



## divs4ever (27 July 2021)

there are some that questioned the accuracy  and usefulness  of the test by June 2020 ESPECIALLY when not combined with  blood tests 

 let's see what happens next year


----------



## basilio (27 July 2021)

Have to say I have been amazed and dismayed at the slowness of mass public vaccinations in Australia and many other countries. I suggest the example of Bhutan in vaccinating 85% of the whole population in a week is a salutary lesson that should be quickly learnt.

We can produce millions of doses of AZ locally. Why in gods name we can't  jab 85% of our population in 3-5months is a mystery when a country like Bhutan just does it..









						Bhutan’s rapid Covid vaccine rollout hailed as international success story
					

More than 85% of adults in the tiny Himalayan kingdom were given a second dose in just one week




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Have to say I have been amazed and dismayed at the slowness of mass public vaccinations in Australia and many other countries. I suggest the example of Bhutan in vaccinating 85% of the whole population in a week is a salutary lesson that should be quickly learnt.
> 
> We can produce millions of doses of AZ locally. Why in gods name we can't  jab 85% of our population in 3-5months is a mystery when a country like Bhutan just does it..
> 
> ...



Because a much larger minority of Australians have critical thinking skills and abilities to analyse data.

Those people don't want it bro.


----------



## moXJO (27 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> NSW latest, 172 cases, only 19 in isolation. I said today was the day when Gladys would get real.
> Honestly, if she doesn't soon there will be no end to this. Graph showing yesterdays figures below. Today would add another spike.
> Before this she did an excellent job. Is her health advisor not up to scratch?
> View attachment 127995



The latest advice from overseas is 'drop the zero cases policy'. So it might just be a vax race. Don't quote me on that.

We need to see how big of a spike we get from this rally. Good chance it ended up all over the state.


----------



## macca (27 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Have to say I have been amazed and dismayed at the slowness of mass public vaccinations in Australia and many other countries. I suggest the example of Bhutan in vaccinating 85% of the whole population in a week is a salutary lesson that should be quickly learnt.
> 
> We can produce millions of doses of AZ locally. Why in gods name we can't  jab 85% of our population in 3-5months is a mystery when a country like Bhutan just does it..
> 
> ...




Numbers like this might have something to do with it

*<<Public Health Scotland have revealed that 5,522 people have died within twenty-eight days of having a Covid-19 vaccine within the past 6 months* *in Scotland alone. *


Due to dozens of freedom of information requests being made, asking Public Health Scotland (PHS) to provide the current total number of deaths of any individual who has died within 28 days of having a Covid-19 vaccine, PHS decided the best way forward was to publish the information routinely and periodically within their Covid-19 statistical report.>>

and for comparison

A freedom of information request made on the 30th January asked the Scottish Government to reveal the total number of people who had died of Covid-19 since March 2020.


To which the Scottish Government responded on the 11th March 2021 with –


_“The answer to your question is 596 deaths involving COVID-19 has been registered where there was no pre-existing medical condition between March 2020 and January 2021 (including).”_















						5,522 people have died within 28 days of having a Covid-19 Vaccine in Scotland according to Public Health Scotland
					

Public Health Scotland have revealed that 5,522 people have died within twenty-eight days of having a Covid-19 vaccine within the past 6 months in Scotland alon




					dailyexpose.co.uk
				





As at the 18th of July, there have been a total of 10,268 deaths registered in Scotland where the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) was mentioned on the death certificate. In the latest week there were 47 deaths, an increase of 16 deaths from the previous week.
Obviously people are dying from the vaccine, sought of damned if you do and damned if you don't isn't it.

The other concern is that a number of people are suffering long "Covid side effects" from the Virus and from the vaccine, so same problem.

Not sure what will happen when the next variant happens, no one knows, that is the problem


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2021)

macca said:


> Numbers like this might have something to do with it
> 
> *<<Public Health Scotland have revealed that 5,522 people have died within twenty-eight days of having a Covid-19 vaccine within the past 6 months* *in Scotland alone. *
> 
> ...



Please read.

As expected, most COVID deaths in the UK are vaccinated.​This is a simple thought experiment. Imagine everyone is completely vaccinated with the COVID vaccine. This is good, but it can’t save every life. Some people infected with COVID still die. All these people are fully vaccinated — 100%. That does not mean that the vaccine is not effective in reducing death.

The risk of dying from COVID doubles about every 7 years of age. The difference between the ages of 35 and 70, 35, means that the risk of death for the two patients has increased five-fold, or 32-fold. Unvaccinated 70 years old You are 32 times more likely to die of COVID than unvaccinated 35 years old. This dramatic change in age-related risk profile means that even good vaccines do not lower the risk of mortality in the elderly below the risk of some young demographics.

PHE data Double vaccination suggests that the risk of hospitalization for the currently predominant delta mutant is reduced by approximately 96%. Even with the conservative assumption that vaccines are less effective in preventing death than hospitalization (in fact, vaccines are likely to be more effective in preventing death), this is a double vaccination. Unvaccinated people who have the same underlying risk profile for those who receive it.

However, the one-twentieth reduction in risk posed by the vaccine is not sufficient to offset the one-thirty-two increase in potential mortality risk at age 70 than at age 35. Given the same risk of infection, it is expected that 70-year-olds who have been double-vaccinated will die of COVID than 35-year-olds who have not been vaccinated. There is a caveat to that simple calculation. The risk of infection is not the same for all age groups. Currently, infectious diseases Youngest and best It is lower in the elderly.


Read the rest of the article to get the maths.








						As expected, most COVID deaths in the UK are vaccinated. - Florida News Times
					

Credit: CC0 public domain Recent reports show that vaccinated people die of COVID more than unvaccinated people. Report from UK Public Health Services (PHE). The report shows that 163 (63.4%) of the 257 people who died within 28 days of a positive COVID test between February 1 and June 21...




					floridanewstimes.com


----------



## rederob (27 July 2021)

macca said:


> Numbers like this might have something to do with it
> 
> *<<Public Health Scotland have revealed that 5,522 people have died within twenty-eight days of having a Covid-19 vaccine within the past 6 months* *in Scotland alone. *



How many died due to vaccination?
According to official data, it was 4 out of 3.2 million doses at end-May 2021.
Did another 5518 die in the past few months?


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2021)

Everyone should work out their odds.
I'm 56 and know mine. Do the maths.


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Everyone should work out their odds.
> I'm 56 and know mine. Do the maths.



Hah!

Nobody know the maths over the long term.

I'm 60 in a few days, *may have already had the damn thing, and judge my chances of deleterious effects of covid, beyond what I might expect from influenza, to be virtually zero.

(And I reserve the right to change my opinion, ***>>>accurate data<<<<*** forthcoming.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Hah!
> 
> Nobody know the maths over the long term.
> 
> ...



Still worth doing. You hope you have had it but maybe you should have got tested at the time.hey?


----------



## basilio (27 July 2021)

macca said:


> *<Public Health Scotland have revealed that 5,522 people have died within twenty-eight days of having a Covid-19 vaccine within the past 6 months* *in Scotland alone. *



Indeed they did !! Now let's expand on that figure so that we can understand the complete picture.

During the same 6 month period in Scotland :

1)   6189 people died within 28 days of drinking alcohol
2)   3451 people died within 28 days of being in a motor vehicle
3)   4789.5 people die within 28 days of having sex  (Wanking counts as halves..)
4)     899.8  people died with 28 days of reading The Big Expose

So when we add it all up we have  a total of 20,851.3  sex crazed,  vaccinated, alcoholic, car driving readers of The Big Expose who tragically passed away in Scotland in that  6 month period.  Truly, *TRULY  *dreadful.

But really it just goes to show how  brilliantly clever it is to torture some figures from "Official documents" to demonstrate  the dangers of vaccination/drinking alcohol/driving/having sex/reading The Big Expose.

And on the other side of the screen there are those thousands and thousands of people who just eat up these creative stories with careful, cautious, analytical but ultimately grudging acceptance that , you know,

         "these vaccines are  killers" " The Doctors, Big Parma and The Chinese are the dark forces " and of course  "COVID is not the enemy.                  We demand our Freedom!!"

*(Did anyone else notice the information added to the headline was just a grab bag of statements that in no way explained the  figure?)*


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Still worth doing.



If you want the experimental gene therapy, do it.

Your body, your choice.

My body, my choice.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> If you want the experimental gene therapy, do it.
> 
> Your body, your choice.
> 
> My body, my choice.



Exactly. Vaccines weird new tech.
Not gene therapy.


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Indeed they did !! Now let's expand on that figure so that we can understand the complete picture.
> 
> During the same 6 month period in Scotland :
> 
> ...



Why did you leave out covid?


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Exactly. Vaccines weird new tech.



So we agree?

Or do you support mandatory "vaccination" (which isn't actually a vaccination in the true sense)?


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> So we agree?
> 
> Or do you support mandatory "vaccination" (which isn't actually a vaccination in the true sense)?



No I don't. Should do the maths though. Especially with their loved ones.


----------



## basilio (27 July 2021)

While we are  discussing The Big Expose let's not forget the fearless leaders who mount the barricades to ensure the Voice of Freedom is never stilled.

Check out Kate Shemirani

Met police investigate anti-vaxxer’s speech amid fears for safety of medics​Police investigate comments by Kate Shemirani, who compared medical staff to Nazi war criminals

Coronavirus – latest updates
See all our coronavirus coverage





Kate Shemirani compared NHS staff to doctors in Nazi Germany.  Photograph: Mark Thomas/Rex/Shutterstock

Kevin Rawlinson
Mon 26 Jul 2021 20.04 AEST
First published on Mon 26 Jul 2021 19.51 AEST

Fears have been expressed for the safety of doctors, nurses and other healthcare staff after they were targeted by anti-vaccine activists.
Police are investigating comments made by Kate Shemirani, a former nurse who has been struck off for using her position to spread Covid misinformation, during the latest anti-lockdown rally at Trafalgar Square in central London on Saturday.

In a widely circulated public speech, she compared medical staff to Nazi war criminals, referred explicitly to their executions and demanded that people gather the names of doctors and nurses in the UK.









						Met police investigate anti-vaxxer’s speech amid fears for safety of medics
					

Police investigate comments by Kate Shemirani, who compared medical staff to Nazi war criminals




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Kate Shemirani - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> No I don't. Should do the maths though. Especially with their loved ones.



My sister in law has her masters in mathematics. She is not having the Vax for now (but like me has not discounted it at some point in the future).


----------



## Knobby22 (27 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> My sister in law has her masters in mathematics. She is not having the Vax for now (but like me has not discounted it at some point in the future).



One of my brothers in law (I have a big family) is right of Genghis Khan but as a partner in a major accounting firm managed to get Pfizer before most under 50s. They know maths also.


----------



## IFocus (27 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Have to say I have been amazed and dismayed at the slowness of mass public vaccinations in Australia and many other countries. I suggest the example of Bhutan in vaccinating 85% of the whole population in a week is a salutary lesson that should be quickly learnt.
> 
> We can produce millions of doses of AZ locally. Why in gods name we can't  jab 85% of our population in 3-5months is a mystery when a country like Bhutan just does it..
> 
> ...





Because we haven't had any serious out breaks, low death and hospitalization rates = false sense of security prevails.


----------



## wayneL (28 July 2021)

Innerestin'


----------



## rederob (28 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Innerestin'




If @wayneL lifted his block on my posts he would realise his post is based on a poor understanding of statistics.


----------



## bellenuit (28 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Innerestin'





To get this immunity you have to be infected with the virus in the first place and that is a huge risk to take. Taking the vaccine massively reduces your chances of getting infected and then either dying or requiring hospitalisation (we know this from the recently provided hospitalisation and death data from the US).

If you do take the vaccine and subsequently get infected, then in almost all cases the symptoms will be mild and deaths rare. But now that you are infected, you get the same "natural" immunity benefits your article talks about. Not taking the vaccine, for those who haven't been infected and subsequently recovered, increases your risk of infection and if infected your symptoms will in general be much more severe and the chance of death substantially higher.

At best the results, assuming to be true, are saying that if you have already been infected and have recovered, there is little benefit to THEN getting vaccinated. But that is not the situation that most people are in. They haven't yet been infected and thus haven't acquired natural immunity, so taking the vaccine is the best course of action for them to avoid hospitalisation and potential death.


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2021)

Interesting situation regarding vaccine supply.








						Number of unused AstraZeneca vaccines in Australia tops 3 million
					

The World Health Organisation says Australia should give unwanted vaccines to countries that could use them.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2021)

One positive from the NSW outbreak is vaccine hesitancy is falling, I guess people are getting really fed up with lockdowns.


			Vaccine hesitancy plummets over outbreaks


----------



## Humid (29 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> My sister in law has her masters in mathematics. She is not having the Vax for now (but like me has not discounted it at some point in the future).



The treasurer has honours in economics lol


----------



## moXJO (29 July 2021)

Got the first hit of Pfizer and waiting the 15mins after the shot.
Right now risk of dying from boredom is a concern.


----------



## Belli (29 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> One positive from the NSW outbreak is vaccine hesitancy is falling, I guess people are getting really fed up with lockdowns.
> 
> 
> Vaccine hesitancy plummets over outbreaks




Or, as one medical practitioner told me, watch fear reduce vaccine hesitancy.  Many calls to the surgery especially from over 60's who have been eligible for ages but too complacent to be vaccinated.


----------



## Belli (29 July 2021)

Humid said:


> The treasurer has honours in economics lol




And many of those in the background undertaking analysis on projections of infection rates unless the spread is contained have PhD's and eat data sets for breakfast.


----------



## moXJO (29 July 2021)

Still feel fine. Arm isn't sore (which I get a bit from vax) just feels a bit heavy in the shoulder.
Feel a little funny in the throat, light headedness. Will probably over think and create a few more symptoms.

So next shot is in 3 weeks. Asked the nurse about the eight weeks thing and she said the current official advice is 3-6 weeks. 

I think the risk of hospitals getting swamped here in nsw is becoming a concern. The problem is also that resources get taken away from other patients with illness that isn't as easily preventable.

I'm not against people not getting the vax as the only thing vax really does is lessen the chance of serious hospitalisation, reduce the chance of catching it. But I think governments will make it hard for the unvaccinated.


----------



## sptrawler (29 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> . But I think governments will make it hard for the unvaccinated.



I think that pretty well nails it, when there is plenty of vaccine available, the pressure will be applied.
When it isn't a national health crisis, I doubt it will be free, but you will need it to do some things.
It will be a bit like when the NWS gas came to Perth, it was free for the household to connect, years later it cost a fortune to reto connect to the main. The daughter moved into a group of units that hadn't connected and we investigated getting NG on, it was a ridiculous price so we didn't connect and they were all free standing individual villas.


----------



## Belli (29 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think that pretty well nails it, when there is plenty of vaccine available, the pressure will be applied.




Have a gander at what France, Italy and Greece are doing on that score.


----------



## wayneL (29 July 2021)

Humid said:


> The treasurer has honours in economics lol



The dismal science. Not named that without reason.

Honours indicates that he is holus bolus into Keynesian theory. So far Keynesianism had led us into the most dangerous economic period the world has ever seen and can be equated with putting sawdust into a ****ed gearbox so the buyer doesn't know it's ****ed.

Good luck with that.


----------



## IFocus (29 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> My sister in law has her masters in mathematics. She is not having the Vax for now (but like me has not discounted it at some point in the future).





My next door neighbour is a doctor, professor, pHD, long time medical researcher across a number on counties including the US... jumped for the vax as soon as he could get it...


----------



## wayneL (29 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> My next door neighbour is a doctor, professor, pHD, long time medical researcher across a number on counties including the US... jumped for the vax as soon as he could get it...



I have a few medicos as clients. As I've detailed before, it's about a 50/50 split, some have jumped straight on board, others are saying no freaking way.

Most, despite their scientific bbackground, have had visceral reactions one way or the other.

I'm trying to stay objective but it is difficult with all the bulshit around the place... From both sides.


----------



## moXJO (29 July 2021)

Update:
Tender with some pain at injection point.
Slept before.
Feel ok.


----------



## bellenuit (31 July 2021)

Some recent US data







Notwithstanding all the noise about breakthrough infections, the case for vaccination remains enormously strong: they show an 8-fold reduction in cases, and a 25-fold reduction in hospitalizations and deaths with vaccination.


----------



## IFocus (31 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Some recent US data
> 
> View attachment 128201
> 
> ...





Thanks Bellnuit really in your face stats


----------



## rederob (1 August 2021)

What does it mean to vaccinate, or
vacillate?
Here's the US experience:








and deaths...




Scientists’ models suggest that vaccination may have saved approximately 279,000 lives in the U.S. and prevented up to 1.25 million hospitalizations by the end of June 2021. Similarly, in England about 30,300 deaths, 46,300 hospitalizations and 8.15 million infections may have been prevented by COVID-19 vaccines. In Israel, the high vaccination rate is thought to have caused a 77% drop in cases and a 68% drop in hospitalizations from that nation’s pandemic peak.


----------



## sptrawler (1 August 2021)

This from the Sydney outbreak also seems to support your point @rederob 









						‘Do not wait’ for Pfizer: New data shows just 1 per cent of Delta cases fully vaccinated
					

New data reveals the huge impact of the AstraZeneca and Pfizer vaccines, with just 1 per cent of COVID cases in the Sydney outbreak among those who were fully vaccinated.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
The critical role that vaccines will play in propelling Australia out of the pandemic is underscored by new data from the federal Health Department that shows just one per cent of the 2702 people who have caught COVID-19 in Sydney’s Delta outbreak were fully vaccinated. Of the 15 people who were fully vaccinated but still caught COVID, none needed hospitalisation and none died.

Just 5 per cent of cases, or 141 people, caught COVID after having one jab, with the partially vaccinated accounting for 6 per cent of hospital cases, 4 per cent of ICU cases and 8 per cent of deaths.

A total of 2164 people, or 80 per cent of cases, were among the unvaccinated who also made up 87 per cent of hospital admissions, 91 per cent of ICU patients and 85 per cent of deaths.


----------



## rederob (1 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> This from the Sydney outbreak also seems to support your point @rederob
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We now have data from across the world involving hundreds of millions of vaccinated people.
Despite this there are people who latch onto tweets and other forms of misinformation to suggest vaccinations are neither safe nor as effective as they are proven to be.
The risk:reward considerations in times of pandemic so strongly support vaccination that it's a no contest.
That's not to diminish the fact that there are known side effects, and the potential for unknown side effects to appear in future years.
The individual consideration now boils down to fitting yourself into the risk matrix and deciding one way or the other.


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2021)

Israel needs booster shots as the vaccines wane after a while. 
The effectiveness drops fairly hard.

However it still protects against serious hospitalisation.

In a handful of people with the vaccination that caught covid they ended up with symptoms for up to 6 weeks. Study below, be aware its only a small sample. 

*Researchers studied 1,497 vaccinated health care workers at the Sheba Medical Center in Israel. Among them, only 39 got infected despite their inoculations.*
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072

Israel is probably the place to watch right now as their vaccination rate is high.


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2021)

rederob said:


> We now have data from across the world involving hundreds of millions of vaccinated people.
> Despite this there are people who latch onto tweets and other forms of misinformation to suggest vaccinations are neither safe nor as effective as they are proven to be.
> The risk:reward considerations in times of pandemic so strongly support vaccination that it's a no contest.
> That's not to diminish the fact that there are known side effects, and the potential for unknown side effects to appear in future years.
> The individual consideration now boils down to fitting yourself into the risk matrix and deciding one way or the other.



Do you have data on young people risk/reward regarding the vaccine?


----------



## rederob (1 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Do you have data on young people risk/reward regarding the vaccine?



Australia's covid vaccination program is only available for those over 16, so my comment was not aimed at the very young.
In terms of proper trials for younger ages, this is relevant.
Current discussion around vaccinating school aged is focused more on whether or not transmission is reduced rather than efficacy per se.  I think the jury is out.


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Australia's covid vaccination program is only available for those over 16, so my comment was not aimed at the very young.
> In terms of proper trials for younger ages, this is relevant.
> Current discussion around vaccinating school aged is focused more on whether or not transmission is reduced rather than efficacy per se.  I think the jury is out.



I've got  sons 18 and 15. Not convinced that it's the right move just yet.


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2021)

Update on my vaccination:
Shoulder hurts, feels like a dead arm. Painful to hold in certain positions.

Restless sleep with stupid dreams.

Developed a cough every now and then.


----------



## rederob (1 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> I've got  sons 18 and 15. Not convinced that it's the right move just yet.



US CDC shows young are affected and vaccinations reduce rates, but I could not find death data:





From what we know about AZ, it's not a vaccine I can see with a favourable risk:reward outcome for under 18s.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Update on my vaccination:
> Shoulder hurts, feels like a dead arm. Painful to hold in certain positions.
> 
> Restless sleep with stupid dreams.
> ...



All symptoms I had before my injection


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> All symptoms I had before my injection



Definitely inflammation in my shoulder.


----------



## bellenuit (1 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> All symptoms I had before my injection




My second AstraZenica was two weeks ago and I haven't experienced symptoms that concern me. There have been some, but like you, I had them infrequently in the past, so it is hard to say whether the AZ played a part.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Definitely inflammation in my shoulder.




Yes, my arm was a bit sore to touch but I also got pain in my other arm !

Don't know where that came from.


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2021)

Now every joint is aching.


----------



## basilio (1 August 2021)

This is how Bhutan managed to vaccinate 90% of it's population in a week. And they did it twice of course. 

Tiny Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan vaccinates 90% of its population, becoming a beacon of hope for a region struggling with Covid​
CNN) Bhutan has fully vaccinated 90% of its eligible adult population in a week with Covid-19 shots, a feat that has been described as a "success story" and a "beacon of hope" for other countries in the region, the UN Children's Fund (UNICEF) said Tuesday.

The tiny South Asian kingdom of 770,00 people is nestled in high in the Himalayas between India and China, and its high altitude, remote mountain villages, nomadic herders and extreme weather posed unique challenges to health workers delivering the vaccines safely across the country.

The rollout campaign of second doses, which began on July 20, involved months of preparation that included setting up cold chain storage facilities in difficult to reach health clinics, deploying a helicopter to deliver vaccines to the more remote locations, and an army of volunteers distributing the vaccines along mountain footpaths.

By Tuesday, about 480,000 people had been vaccinated out of an eligible population of 530,000 people, UNICEF's Bhutan representative Will Parks said from the capital Thimphu, adding that it was "arguably the fastest vaccination campaign to be executed during a pandemic.









						Tiny kingdom of Bhutan fully vaccinates 90% of its adult population
					

Bhutan has fully vaccinated 90% of its eligible adult population in a week with Covid-19 shots, a feat that has been described as a "success story" and a "beacon of hope" for other countries in the region, the UN Children's Fund (UNICEF) said Tuesday.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## basilio (2 August 2021)

Snapshot into the value of the vaccine.

‘A lottery who ends up in hospital’: Australian Covid survivors speak out​




Derek Young, 55, caught Covid in March 2020 and spent time in hospital with pneumonia. He continued to suffer from long-term symptoms that were recently significantly alleviated by getting vaccinated. Photograph: Carly Earl/The Guardian

From fully vaccinated people with no symptoms to those suffering from long Covid, Australians who caught the virus have a unanimous message: get the jab









						‘A lottery who ends up in hospital’: Australian Covid survivors speak out
					

From fully vaccinated people with no symptoms to those suffering from long Covid, Australians who caught the virus have a unanimous message: get the jab




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Humid (2 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Now every joint is aching.



Whats happening at street level in Gladistan?


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Snapshot into the value of the vaccine.
> 
> ‘A lottery who ends up in hospital’: Australian Covid survivors speak out​
> View attachment 128465
> ...



It is great to see the media is on board with the push for people to get vaccinated at last, I suppose they have already done the scare stories of getting a vaccine, so it is time to move on to the next phase.


----------



## Humid (2 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It is great to see the media is on board with the push for people to get vaccinated at last, I suppose they have already done the scare stories of getting a vaccine, so it is time to move on to the next phase.



Vaccinated with what?


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

Humid said:


> Vaccinated with what?



That is the question, everyone has to ask themselves, I chose AZ.  I'm a bit old school and take the tried method, until the new method has been in service for a while.
My guess is if the mRNA proves effective and to have minimal side effects, eventually the AZ style vaccination will disappear, technology is always changing, most times for the better.


----------



## Humid (2 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is the question, everyone has to ask themselves, I chose AZ.  I'm a bit old school and take the tried method, until the new method has been in service for a while.
> My guess is if the mRNA proves effective and to have minimal side effects, eventually the AZ style vaccination will disappear, technology is always changing, most times for the better.



Chose... lol thats all thats all thats on offer


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

Humid said:


> Chose... lol thats all thats all thats on offer



If you hang on,there is talk of a $1m lottery. 😂


----------



## Humid (2 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If you hang on,there is talk of a $1m lottery. 😂



I had mine when you were still in the prefered Pfizer queue the shot must have played with your memory....


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2021)

Humid said:


> Whats happening at street level in Gladistan?



Tradies back to work.

A lot of young people are really struggling. I'm worried about the long term damage to society from what isolation has done to kids.

Shops are all shut (eg kmart, harvey Norman, shopping centres) office works, bunnings still open.

Police questioning/booking everyone. 

Two tier businesses with some doing great (big stores are raking in the cash) while small businesses are smashed. Consumer choice is disappearing.

I get to sit on my arse more with "Its Covid lockdowns" excuse.


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2021)

Mild joint aches today. Surprisingly joint pain was worse in the opposite arm from injection point last night.

Pain behind the eyes.

I was expecting to get a rough 4-6 day run after vax similar to a mild flu cycle.
So far it's just been uncomfortable. Joint pain was the worst.


----------



## Humid (2 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Tradies back to work.
> 
> A lot of young people are really struggling. I'm worried about the long term damage to society from what isolation has done to kids.
> 
> ...



The feds will look aftre the big stores


----------



## Humid (2 August 2021)

Lachlan Murdoch’s Nova boosts earnings with $10.6m JobKeeper payment
					

Lachlan Murdoch’s privately owned radio group, Nova Entertainment, boosted its earnings last year while receiving $10.6 million worth of JobKeeper payments.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2021)

Humid said:


> The feds will look aftre the big stores



This is exactly what is going on.


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

Humid said:


> I had mine when you were still in the prefered Pfizer queue the shot must have played with your memory....



As you get older, you get more risk averse.


----------



## Knobby22 (4 August 2021)

Unvaccinated man in his 20s died today in Sydney from Covid while in quarantine.
Sounds like he should have been in hospital. Hey, he is young, he will be alright.
I feel sorry for the guy. Too young to be vaccinated.

An unvaccinated 80 year old woman died also.


----------



## sptrawler (4 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Unvaccinated man in his 20s died today in Sydney from Covid while in quarantine.
> Sounds like he should have been in hospital. Hey, he is young, he will be alright.
> I feel sorry for the guy. Too young to be vaccinated.
> 
> An unvaccinated 80 year old woman died also.



Yes, very sad, the blood clot headlines are certainly falling away.


----------



## wayneL (4 August 2021)

FWIW


----------



## Knobby22 (4 August 2021)

I'm keeping my eye on this as The Australian and ABC have a different take saying he was really suffering symptoms and he was a fitness freak.


----------



## sptrawler (4 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I'm keeping my eye on this as The Australian and ABC have a different take saying he was really suffering symptoms and he was a fitness freak.



The rhetoric certainly has rotated in the media, from you could die from the vaccine, to you could die if you don't have the vaccine. 
That is the benefit of owning the stage, you only have to promote the show, you want to promote.


----------



## Knobby22 (4 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The rhetoric certainly has rotated in the media, from you could die from the vaccine, to you could die if you don't have the vaccine.
> That is the benefit of owning the stage, you only have to promote the show, you want to promote.



The oldest guy at work who wears a Trump cap sometimes for a stir  has rotated from no way I am having a vaccine to I am only going to have Pfizor, to yesterday actually getting vaccinated with AZ and saying the government should be making people take it.
Surprised me.


----------



## IFocus (4 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The rhetoric certainly has rotated in the media, from you could die from the vaccine, to you could die if you don't have the vaccine.
> That is the benefit of owning the stage, you only have to promote the show, you want to promote.





The numbers on AZ vax problems hasn't changed any where in the media maybe a slight rise in Pfizer reported issues,


----------



## sptrawler (4 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> The numbers on AZ vax problems hasn't changed any where in the media maybe a slight rise in Pfizer reported issues,



Haven't heard of an Australian blood clot for a while, maybe they don't happen anymore? Or the incidences have reduced.
Only going off what is in the local Australian papers, SMH, AGE, Guardian, Telegraph, Australian  etc.  A while back there were clots reported almost daily. It might be because a lot have now been vaccinated, just an observation.
But there appears to now be much more focus on the chance of dying because of not having the vaccine, as opposed to the chance of getting a blood clot, due to having the vaccine.
I guess those that are hesitant, would be looking for positive reinforcement to get the vaccine, so good on the media for giving it to them. 👍 
It also must be hard to sell a paper, when your market is locked inside?


----------



## cynic (4 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Haven't heard of an Australian blood clot for a while, maybe they don't happen anymore? Or the incidences have reduced.
> Only going off what is in the local Australian papers, SMH, AGE, Guardian, Telegraph, Australian  etc.  A while back there were clots reported almost daily. It might be because a lot have now been vaccinated, just an observation.
> But there appears to now be much more focus on the chance of dying because of not having the vaccine, as opposed to the chance of getting a blood clot, due to having the vaccine.
> I guess those that are hesitant, would be looking for positive reinforcement to get the vaccine, so good on the media for giving it to them. 👍
> It also must be hard to sell a paper, when your market is locked inside?



Interesting you say that. 

Recently,one of my neighbours informed me that a mutual friend, following the death of one of her friends, from a blood clotting disorder, is now too frightened to have the AZ.

 I don't  know whether or not the reported statistics include the deceased on this occasion.

Suffice to say we (as in my friends and neighbour) share suspicions about the possibility that some events may be going unreported.


----------



## sptrawler (4 August 2021)

cynic said:


> Interesting you say that.
> 
> Recently,one of my neighbours informed me that a mutual friend, following the death of one of her friends, from a blood clotting disorder, is now too frightened to have the AZ.
> 
> ...



We will never know, but there is one thing for certain how the media present an issue, has a big bearing on how the public perceive it.
The problem that has persisted, is a lot of the public perceive death from a clot, far exceeds the chances of death from covid.
Really they should have been pushing, this isn't going away, in all probability everyone will either get the vaccine or eventually get covid or something along that narrative.
Would the ones who die from a dose of covid vaccine, die from a dose of actual covid? It will be quite a while before all the results are in and definitive answers are known IMO.
But the World can't go on from lockdown to lockdown indefinitely.
My guess is, there will be booster shots, for a few years to come.


----------



## Humid (4 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> The oldest guy at work who wears a Trump cap sometimes for a stir  has rotated from no way I am having a vaccine to I am only going to have Pfizor, to yesterday actually getting vaccinated with AZ and saying the government should be making people take it.
> Surprised me.





Knobby22 said:


> The oldest guy at work who wears a Trump cap sometimes for a stir  has rotated from no way I am having a vaccine to I am only going to have Pfizor, to yesterday actually getting vaccinated with AZ and saying the government should be making people take it.
> Surprised me.



You work with SP?


----------



## sptrawler (4 August 2021)

@Humid you got a stutter, or just repeat yourself? 🤣


----------



## Belli (5 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, very sad, the blood clot headlines are certainly falling away.




TGA safety report week ended 29 July advises of a total of 90 cases of TTS.  Although unfortunate it is a very, very small number in comparison to the number of doses.  As to the number of reported adverse events, I understand those have to be considered against vaccination anxiety (normal) and coincidence.  Usual lag time with this group on dosage data.









						COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 29-07-2021
					

Information about the TGA's safety monitoring of COVID-19 vaccines.




					www.tga.gov.au
				




For those interested, the Department of Health has data on doses administered by age and State.  To yesterday 12.8m doses.  So far 90 cases of TTS out of 12.8m for both vaccines.  Any chance that potential adverse event aspect has been overblown by some?









						Vaccination numbers and statistics
					

This page contains data about Australia's COVID-19 vaccine rollout. We update this page every day with the latest information.




					www.health.gov.au
				




AstraZeneca and Pfizer are not the only vaccines being evaluated either.









						COVID-19 vaccines undergoing evaluation
					

The TGA has received applications and is assessing preliminary data for three COVID-19 vaccines using the provisional pathway and rolling review procedures.




					www.tga.gov.au


----------



## Knobby22 (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> FWIW




Hi Wayne

Daily Mail story updated (from your twitter version).
He did not have a diagnosed heart condition and he did have symptoms. He also was also very fit and a soccer player.
Daily Mail have updated their news story with the cousin with names and details but he was not there. I would much rather hear it from the widow.

The cousin obviously doesn't want to believe that Covid was involved in the death and doesn't trust the diagnosis.
In truth we don't even know whether it was his heart that failed.
Other reports said he deteriorated overnight.

Honestly, his cousin comes across as a fool trying to justify his poor advise to the relatives. Maybe you should update the twitterati.









						Pictured: Newlywed, 27, who died in southwest Sydney from Covid
					

Ady Al-Askar, 27, from Liverpool in Sydney's south-west, had been 'feeling 90% fine' after being diagnosed with virus late last month.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2021)

Humid said:


> You work with SP?






Belli said:


> TGA safety report week ended 29 July advises of a total of 90 cases of TTS.  Although unfortunate it is a very, very small number in comparison to the number of doses.  As to the number of reported adverse events, I understand those have to be considered against vaccination anxiety (normal) and coincidence.  Usual lag time with this group on dosage data.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is great info Belli, as more accurate and factual information is correlated, those who are nervous about the vaccine will be more put at ease that the adverse effects are not as prolific as first indicated.
This Delta strain will certainly be accelerating the uptake of the vaccine, especially in those who expected the virus to fade and eventually disappear, now it is becoming obvious it is probably here to stay, they will now be deciding which vaccine they want.
The reality is starting to become obvious that, it is either the vaccine, or the virus, you pick.


----------



## wayneL (5 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Hi Wayne
> 
> Daily Mail story updated (from your twitter version).
> He did not have a diagnosed heart condition and he did have symptoms. He also was also very fit and a soccer player.
> ...



one of my very good friends died in almost the exact same circumstance last year, right down to the shower.

The only difference was that he didn't have covid.

Pinning this young man's death on covid definitively is drawing a very bloody longbow in my opinion and is being hyped up for the obvious propaganda effect.

Sudden heart failure is not all that uncommon really, even our friend Avi Yemeni nearly died last year the same way as well.

But it is very useful fear pr0n for the government and media.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> one of my very good friends died in almost the exact same circumstance last year, right down to the shower.
> 
> The only difference was that he didn't have covid.
> 
> ...



Long Bow? 
All reports say he seriously deteriorated with Covid symptoms overnight then he died.
Still whatever gives you comfort


----------



## wayneL (5 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Long Bow?
> All reports say he seriously deteriorated with Covid symptoms overnight then he died.
> Still whatever gives you comfort



Comfort?

Seriously man, the most comfortable thing would be to get the stupid injection, submit to the tyrannical Covid passport, eat, drink, and be merry.

At the moment that least comfortable thing I can even imagine is to stand up for the liberties that people like you are all too willing to give away because you are fearful.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Comfort?
> 
> Seriously man, the most comfortable thing would be to get the stupid injection, submit to the tyrannical Covid passport, eat, drink, and be merry.
> 
> At the moment that least comfortable thing I can even imagine is to stand up for the liberties that people like you are all too willing to give away because you are fearful.




Fear is rational when supported by evidence.


----------



## Belli (5 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is great info Belli, as more accurate and factual information is correlated, those who are nervous about the vaccine will be more put at ease that the adverse effects are not as prolific as first indicated.
> This Delta strain will certainly be accelerating the uptake of the vaccine, especially in those who expected the virus to fade and eventually disappear, now it is becoming obvious it is probably here to stay, they will now be deciding which vaccine they want.
> The reality is starting to become obvious that, it is either the vaccine, or the virus, you pick.




No problem.  Better to information from reliable sources which gather and assess clinical information from world wide institutions.  I'll forgive them if they have overlooked including that, um, well respected research house, the dailymail online.


----------



## wayneL (5 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Fear is rational when supported by evidence.



Rational?

Seriously, think about the risks all of us endure in everyday life. Risk amelioration is entirely rational, but if fear was rational none of us would get in a damned car, or a plane, or eat trans fats, or smoke, or drink too much.

Holy crap. I take a risk every time I get under a horse... Farriers die and get seriously injured, man. I'm happy to take those risks.

We ameliorate those risks by taking reasonable precautions. One or more of the vaccinations may turn out to be a reasonable precaution against covid.

But in a long-term nobody knows what the long term risk for any of the vaccines are. Therefore nobody is even in a position to be able to assess those risks.

in the meantime I'm quite confident that my risk from covid itself is minimal, and not worth giving away my freedom so cheaply for.


----------



## Humid (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Comfort?
> 
> Seriously man, the most comfortable thing would be to get the stupid injection, submit to the tyrannical Covid passport, eat, drink, and be merry.
> 
> At the moment that least comfortable thing I can even imagine is to stand up for the liberties that people like you are all too willing to give away because you are fearful.



People maintaining liberties in NSW is working a treat you had the option to move there


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Rational?
> 
> Seriously, think about the risks all of us endure in everyday life. Risk amelioration is entirely rational, but if fear was rational none of us would get in a damned car, or a plane, or eat trans fats, or smoke, or drink too much.
> 
> ...




Of course fear is rational because it motivates people or animals to avoid danger thus saving their lives.


----------



## rederob (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> In the meantime I'm quite confident that my risk from covid itself is minimal....



That's a baseless claim.
Different strains seem to be impacting people of varying age and fitness differently.
Moreover, you do not know if your cells are more or less receptive to covid than anyone else's.
Bravado does not trump nature.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Rational?
> 
> 
> in the meantime I'm quite confident that my risk from covid itself is minimal, and not worth giving away my freedom so cheaply for.



That is very true, most things that people can be vaccinated for are still around, it is just most are vaccinated, therefore those that aren't very seldom get it, hooping cough etc, occasionally like I think last year a child died of it but that is unusual these days.
In my situation, the wife and I do want to travel and we ain't getting any younger, as there in every likely hood will be some sort of vaccine passport, we just though WTF pick the old tried and true and get on with it.
I think the Govmnt's have realised how useful the log in app was, but eventually that will stop being used, so a passport is bound to come.


----------



## IFocus (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Holy crap. I take a risk every time I get under a horse... Farriers die and get seriously injured, man. I'm happy to take those risks.





I would have thought your work risk would have been 100's of times higher than the Vax risk so really don't understand your logic.

In terms of freedom that comes from high Vax rates not the other way around IMHO.


----------



## wayneL (5 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is very true, most things that people can be vaccinated for are still around, it is just most are vaccinated, therefore those that aren't very seldom get it, hooping cough etc, occasionally like I think last year a child died of it but that is unusual these days.
> In my situation, the wife and I do want to travel and we ain't getting any younger, as there in every likely hood will be some sort of vaccine passport, we just though WTF pick the old tried and true and get on with it.
> I think the Govmnt's have realised how useful the log in app was, but eventually that will stop being used, so a passport is bound to come.



I will never council anyone to not get the vax, it is their choice and I understand all the reasons why one would like to become vaccinated, if such consent is informed.

Godspeed.

My point here is that I don't believe I have enough information to give my consent for me in my and my family's best interest.

Additionally, I believe it is both unconstitutional and illegal by international law to try to force me to do so.

Also I find it morally reprehensible to create a two tier system, ipso facto a vaccine apartheid.

To be clear I think that countries have every right to demand any vaccinations they deem fit for travelers to their own country. However to have a vaccine passport to go to the grocery store or a God damned pub is a tyranny that has rarely ever been exceeded in the past... And does not bode for our liberties going forward.

As ever I reserve the right to change my mind, or not as the case may be, as information comes to hand.


----------



## wayneL (5 August 2021)

Humid said:


> People maintaining liberties in NSW is working a treat you had the option to move there



Not an argument. Try harder.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> I will never council anyone to not get the vax, it is their choice and I understand all the reasons why one would like to become vaccinated, if such consent is informed.
> 
> Godspeed.
> 
> ...



At the moment you have every right to do as you wish and I agree 100% with you, you should be allowed to decide, where it only affects you or your family.
As you are with wearing a seat belt or anyone else in the car, or wearing a helmet on a motorcycle, or on a bicycle, the land of the free. 🥳

There is one thing for sure Wayne, the authorities have gleaned much more information from this pandemic, than only that pertaining to the virus.
I don't believe for one minute any useful information or information technology that was found useful in the pandemic, wont be somehow incorporated into our everyday lives, the only question is when or how.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 August 2021)

Lockdown in Melbourne from 8pm tonight.


----------



## wayneL (5 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> At the moment you have every right to do as you wish and I agree 100% with you, you should be allowed to decide, where it only affects you or your family.
> As you are with wearing a seat belt or anyone else in the car, or wearing a helmet on a motorcycle, or on a bicycle, the land of the free. 🥳
> 
> There is one thing for sure Wayne, the authorities have gleaned much more information from this pandemic, than only that pertaining to the virus.
> I don't believe for one minute any useful information or information technology that was found useful in the pandemic, wont be somehow incorporated into our everyday lives, the only question is when or how.



1) A driving licence is not an absolute right but a privilege as is evidenced by us having to be licensed. There are technical aspects and abilities which must be learned.

However I would argue that going to the grocery store under normal circumstances is a right in a so-called *liberal* democracy.

What I don't understand are those who have been inoculated (supposedly} are so keen to enforce others to do so.

For instance I am inoculated against smallpox TB cholera tetanus and a bunch of other sh¹t that I can't remember...  And very happy to be so, I might add

Each of these had long-term data and FDA approval available before they were released to public. Fine, good risk reward ratio there.

Perhaps even at some point in the future, it may be acceptable for one or another covid vaccination to become more or less mandatory.

But not now.

Look, even gen-u-wine lunatic anti-vaxxers (smallpox, measles etcetera) are not excluded from society as is being proposed with this one.

Why?

I fully expect to be vindicated in my opinion that this is not about health at all, as has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Each of these had long-term data and FDA approval available before they were released to public. Fine, good risk reward ratio there.



That is what grudgingly made me decide on the AZ, after much reading and listening I'm still not convinced on the Phizer, it sounds great, it sounds ground breaking, it sounds new.


----------



## Belli (5 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is what grudgingly made me decide on the AZ, after much reading and listening I'm still not convinced on the Phizer, it sounds great, it sounds ground breaking, it sounds new.




mRNA technology is about 30 years new.  Took quite a bit of research and effort to get it to its current stage.


----------



## wayneL (5 August 2021)

Belli said:


> mRNA technology is about 30 years new.  Took quite a bit of research and effort to get it to its current stage.



How long has it been used on humans?


----------



## rederob (5 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is what grudgingly made me decide on the AZ, after much reading and listening I'm still not convinced on the Phizer, it sounds great, it sounds ground breaking, it sounds new.



As posted by @Belli, the effectiveness of mRNA vaccines was first proven over 30 years ago.
Some people think its a form of *gene therapy*, but it is definitely *not*.
An issue with mRNA vaccines is how the spike proteins affect other than their target such that severe adverse reactions occur. 
The mRNA package - a lipid nanoparticle - is broken down by the cell after it has been used, so the RNA from the vaccine does not persist in cells.  For this reason it is *likely *that we now know about as much as we could in regard to the range of adverse reactions. 

The conspiracy theorists remain armed with opinion and disinformation, when not otherwise understanding efforts in place for the common weal.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2021)

rederob said:


> The mRNA package - a lipid nanoparticle - is broken down by the cell after it has been used, so the RNA from the vaccine does not persist in cells.  For this reason it is *likely *that we now know about as much as we could in regard to the range of adverse reactions.



Which kind of sums up why I decided on AZ.
With the amount of people getting the mRNA vaccine ATM, there should be a wealth of knowledge learnt, in the next year or two.
No doubt it will replace Viral Vector vaccines, in the near future.









						The History of the mRNA Vaccines
					

No one woke up on a morning in December and decided that an mRNA vaccine was the way to go without any prior knowledge of the science and technology of mRNA vaccines. That knowledge goes back decades, and there have been many people working on this technology with many companies and governments...




					historyofvaccines.blog
				












						Understanding Viral Vector COVID-19 Vaccines
					

Learn more about viral vector vaccines, a type of vaccine likely to be approved for use for COVID-19 that work differently from the initially approved mRNA vaccines.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2021)

Maybe Dan Andrews let the cat out of the bag today, when he said we have a 7 day lockdown, or if it gets away, we have a lockdown until we are vaccinated.
Maybe that was meant to be until we are 70% vaccinated?


----------



## Belli (5 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Which kind of sums up why I decided on AZ.




I am happy to report I had the second dose of AZ yesterday morning.  No issues whatsoever including no sore arm.  So best of @sptrawler and hope you get the same outcome.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2021)

Belli said:


> I am happy to report I had the second dose of AZ yesterday morning.  No issues whatsoever including no sore arm.  So best of @sptrawler and hope you get the same outcome.



Ours are on 12 Oct, hopefully we can travel by then, just received a $1200 travel voucher from Jetstar, for the flight we are meant to catch in 3 hours.
Ffing magic they run an airline on taking cash for a flight and giving you a best of luck 18 month voucher, when you cant travel.
Maybe there is a business opportunity there for someone with a Cesna, sell flights and then give gift vouchers back to people.lol
That is the main reason I got vaccinated, Qantas are pushing for vaccine passports, sure as $hit if I dont get vaccinated, I may as well perforate that voucher and put it on the toilet roll.lol


----------



## IFocus (6 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Lockdown in Melbourne from 8pm tonight.





Sorry to hear that all the best to clear in the 7 days


----------



## wayneL (6 August 2021)

Just for a change of pace


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Just for a change of pace




Now that was funny, you really have to see the light side at times.


----------



## Knobby22 (7 August 2021)

How Delta is damaging younger people. 

Why Delta COVID-19 variant could put younger people at risk of deadly cardiac complications








						Australia's top heart doctor has been studying Delta — and has a warning for young people
					

The Delta COVID-19 variant could be putting young, healthy people at greater risk of fatal heart complications, according to the director of Australia's leading cardiac research centre.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (7 August 2021)




----------



## basilio (7 August 2021)

Alarm as US Covid cases above 100,000 a day for first time since February​
Seven-day hospital admissions average up 40% from last week





Mississippi health official says Delta surging ‘like a tsunami’
Healthcare workers at a vaccination event in Florida. About half of all new infections and hospitalizations in the past week were in seven southern states. Photograph: Chandan Khanna/AFP/Getty Images

Amanda Holpuch in New York and agencies

@holpuch
Sat 7 Aug 2021 05.08 AEST
First published on Sat 7 Aug 2021 02.46 AEST


Daily Covid-19 cases in the US moved above 100,000 a day for the first time since February, higher than the levels of last summer when vaccines were not available, and came as health officials sounded alarm over lagging rates of vaccination driving the surge of the infectious Delta variant.

The seven-day average of hospital admissions has also increased more than 40% from the week before, with health workers describing frustration and exhaustion as hospitals in Covid hotspots were again overwhelmed with patients, almost 20 months into the pandemic in the US.




Does the US have to wear masks again for the Delta variant of Covid?
Read more
*“As we look at our hospitalizations and as we look at our deaths, they are overwhelmingly unvaccinated people,” CDC director Rochelle Walensky said at a briefing on Thursday.









						Alarm as US Covid cases above 100,000 a day for first time since February
					

Seven-day hospital admissions average up 40% from week before as Mississippi health official says Delta surging ‘like a tsunami’




					www.theguardian.com
				



*


----------



## IFocus (7 August 2021)

basilio said:


> View attachment 128678





Thats on the money


----------



## Belli (7 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Thats on the money




And yet it is fascinating some on here propose they have more "knowledge" about Covid and vaccinations than the collective knowledge of the millions of researchers and clinicians in multiple institutions across the globe.

Um, yeah, right.


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Thats on the money



You are dead right, IMO there is a reason that 70% and 80% vaccination rates have been chosen, probably related to medical system capability in the worst case scenario


----------



## basilio (7 August 2021)

Can you believe this ? It seems many people do ... 

America’s Frontline Doctors attorney files lawsuit against U.S. government for 45,000 covid vaccine deaths​
07/21/2021 / By Ethan Huff








Ohio-based attorney Thomas Renz is suing the federal government for pushing “vaccines” for the Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19) that have reportedly caused at least 45,000 deaths so far.

At a recent conference in Anaheim, Calif., Renz announced that a whistleblower insider submitted a sworn declaration under oath attesting to the fact that the American military-industrial complex is trying to cover up massive death numbers from the jabs that are not being publicly reported.

“I’m filing papers in federal court today,” Renz told a cheering audience – you can _watch the clip below_.

“Jane Doe gave me some information, she’s an insider, she’s a whistleblower. We are submitting to federal court today, based on a sworn declaration, under threat of perjury this woman attested to this, and she is an expert. We know, based on what she’s said, that there have been at least 45,000 deaths from this vaccine.”









						America’s Frontline Doctors attorney files lawsuit against U.S. government for 45,000 covid vaccine deaths
					

Ohio-based attorney Thomas Renz is suing the federal government for pushing “vaccines” for the Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19) that have reportedly caused at least 45,000 deaths so far. At a recent conference in Anaheim, Calif., Renz announced that a whistleblower insider submitted a sworn...




					vaccinedeaths.com


----------



## basilio (7 August 2021)

Did 45K People Die Within 3 Days of Getting COVID Vaccine?
					

Allegations were said to have come from a “government insider.”




					www.snopes.com
				












						PolitiFact - No evidence of 45,000 deaths from COVID-19 vaccines
					

America’s Frontline Doctors, a group known for its false and misleading claims about the pandemic, first made headlines




					www.politifact.com


----------



## grah33 (7 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Can you believe this ? It seems many people do ...
> 
> America’s Frontline Doctors attorney files lawsuit against U.S. government for 45,000 covid vaccine deaths​
> 07/21/2021 / By Ethan Huff
> ...



Haven't read this , but it's not so hard to believe . You'll find many well known news sites out there with similar stuff.  And it makes  sense too.   And people who should be heard are getting censored.  Resembles totalitarian control.


----------



## basilio (8 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> Haven't read this , but it's not so hard to believe . You'll find many *well known news sites *out there with similar stuff.  And it makes  sense too.   And people who should be heard are getting censored.  Resembles totalitarian control.




I posted two separate analysis which demonstrated this was a lie.  I could have found even more.  They went through the figures carefully. Check them out.

This was a LIE. The fact that this lie has been repeated and repeated and repeated does not make it true.

The idea that it  somehow "makes sense" is nonsense.


----------



## Belli (8 August 2021)

basilio said:


> I posted two separate analysis which demonstrated this was a lie.  I could have found even more.  They went through the figures carefully. Check them out.
> 
> This was a LIE. The fact that this lie has been repeated and repeated and repeated does not make it true.
> 
> The idea that it  somehow "makes sense" is nonsense.




Wasn't a similar number quoted by a doctor who fronted the American Senate but it was discovered he took the headline number of deaths and failed to do an analysis what they actually died from, i.e a vaccination or as a result of other causes?  When a study was done the deaths were less than 500 I think which is normal with any vaccination.  Not that normal is good of course but all vaccines carry some risk albeit small.

Gees, people would really freak today if the original polio vaccine was on offer.


----------



## basilio (8 August 2021)

Belli said:


> Wasn't a similar number quoted by a doctor who fronted the American Senate but it was discovered he took the headline number of deaths and failed to do an analysis what they actually died from, i.e a vaccination or as a result of other causes?  When a study was done the deaths were less than 500 I think which is normal with any vaccination.  Not that normal is good of course but all vaccines carry some risk albeit small.
> 
> Gees, people would really freak today if the original polio vaccine was on offer.




Actually you should recheck the original story I quoted.   This is what was stated after my edit.

_Renz says the whistleblower has seen “inside the systems” where vaccine injuries and deaths are being reported that at least 45,000 people in the United States have died within three days after getting injected – and this is just one system that reports to the federal government._
_Realistically, more than half a million Americans are now dead because of covid vaccines_​_According to Renz, there are as many as 12 different systems that report vaccine-caused deaths and injuries to the government. This means that the true number of Chinese Virus injection deaths could be closer to 540,000 people.

“How many have really died?” Renz asked. “And why are they covering it up? These people are murdering people. This is complicity at a minimum. People need to be in jail.”_


----------



## rederob (8 August 2021)

Australia just caught up with the "average" share of vaccinations for the world:


----------



## rederob (8 August 2021)

On the plus side, our vaccination rate is continuing to increase:




But those Kiwis are ahead of us.
Interesting to see Japan really ramp up vaccinations during the Olympic Games.
USA hasn't reached herd immunity but has backed off significantly.


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2021)

Victorians aged between 18 to 39, will be able to have AstraZeneca from Monday.








						AstraZeneca offered to young Victorians at mass vaccination hubs as outbreak grows
					

Premier Daniel Andrews announces Victorians aged 18 to 39 will be able to access the AstraZeneca vaccine from selected mass vaccination hubs from Monday, as the state battles to bring its Delta outbreak under control.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Belli (8 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Actually you should recheck the original story I quoted. This is what was stated after my edit.




Ta.  I did read the relevant article and also re-read the limitations statement to the VAERS data on which the claims were based.

"Because VAERS allows anyone to report possible side effects from vaccines, it includes reports that might or might not be caused by vaccines. VAERS is *not* designed to identify cause and effect. VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. Some reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. Most reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind."


----------



## grah33 (8 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Can you believe this ? It seems many people do ...
> 
> America’s Frontline Doctors attorney files lawsuit against U.S. government for 45,000 covid vaccine deaths​
> 07/21/2021 / By Ethan Huff
> ...






basilio said:


> I posted two separate analysis which demonstrated this was a lie.  I could have found even more.  They went through the figures carefully. Check them out.
> 
> This was a LIE. The fact that this lie has been repeated and repeated and repeated does not make it true.
> 
> The idea that it  somehow "makes sense" is nonsense.



I still haven't read it, but you know Ivermectin etc. actually work.  That was a lie.


----------



## Belli (8 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> I still haven't read it, but you know Ivermectin etc. actually work.  That was a lie.




One small study of patients in Bangladesh which was published involving 72 patients.  I don't know if larger trials as recommended are being conducted.









						A five-day course of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 may reduce the duration of illness - PubMed
					

Ivermectin, a US Food and Drug Administration-approved anti-parasitic agent, was found to inhibit severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) replication in vitro. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial was conducted to determine the rapidity of viral clearance and...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## grah33 (8 August 2021)

Belli said:


> One small study of patients in Bangladesh which was published involving 72 patients.  I don't know if larger trials as recommended are being conducted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet other posters here have done the research for us.


----------



## grah33 (8 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Actually you should recheck the original story I quoted.   This is what was stated after my edit.
> 
> _Renz says the whistleblower has seen “inside the systems” where vaccine injuries and deaths are being reported that at least 45,000 people in the United States have died within three days after getting injected – and this is just one system that reports to the federal government._
> _Realistically, more than half a million Americans are now dead because of covid vaccines_​_According to Renz, there are as many as 12 different systems that report vaccine-caused deaths and injuries to the government. This means that the true number of Chinese Virus injection deaths could be closer to 540,000 people.
> ...



The Dengue vaccine ... example of how virus mutants can occur from vaccines and exterminate people.  Came across this recently, after a little browsing.  But you'll find this expressed by the inventor of mRNA vaccines, and all over the place by lots of reasonable people.   I don't trust these vaccines at all.


----------



## grah33 (8 August 2021)

The twitter Malone bit and virus mutants (scroll down the page) 





__





						Zerohedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


----------



## rederob (9 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> Yet other posters here have done the research for us.



Our doctors don't agree:
*"The most robust summary of the evidence for ivermectin in COVID-19, published in June, goes one step further. It found available evidence showed ivermectin didn’t work."*​


----------



## basilio (9 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Our doctors don't agree:
> *"The most robust summary of the evidence for ivermectin in COVID-19, published in June, goes one step further. It found available evidence showed ivermectin didn’t work."*​



The real killer of ivermectin as an effective treatment for COVID was the discovery that  the biggest  study "proving" its' effectiveness was proven to be fraudulent.









						Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns
					

The preprint endorsing ivermectin as a coronavirus therapy has been widely cited, but independent researchers find glaring discrepancies in the data




					www.theguardian.com
				




_The data also looked suspicious to Lawrence, with the raw data apparently contradicting the study protocol on several occasions.

“The authors claimed to have done the study only on 18-80 year olds, but at least three patients in the dataset were under 18,” Lawrence said.

“The authors claimed they conducted the study between the 8th of June and 20th of September 2020, however most of the patients who died were admitted into hospital and died before the 8th of June according to the raw data. The data was also terribly formatted, and includes one patient who left hospital on the non-existent date of 31/06/2020.”

There were other concerns.

“In their paper, the authors claim that four out of 100 patients died in their standard treatment group for mild and moderate Covid-19,” Lawrence said. “According to the original data, the number was 0, the same as the ivermectin treatment group. In their ivermectin treatment group for severe Covid-19, the authors claim two patients died, but the number in their raw data is four.”_


----------



## IFocus (9 August 2021)

There are current clinical trials some where for ivermectin hopefully put to bed one way or the other for timing, dose, efficacy.


----------



## bellenuit (9 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> There are current clinical trials some where for ivermectin hopefully put to bed one way or the other for timing, dose, efficacy.




I haven't really followed the ivermectin debate mainly as any cursory investigation of the claims usually led to finding several articles that cast doubt on the reports just like the article from Bas above.

But assuming it does prove an effective treatment after undergoing properly held tests, am I right in saying that ivermectin is touted only as a cure for COVID (relieves the symptoms)? Do they claim that it can prevent you getting COVID just like a vaccine and if one has COVID and one is treated with ivermectin, does it prevent one spreading the virus? If not, you would still need a vaccine to stop the virus spreading. The problem with a spreading virus is the risk of mutations that could end us up with a strain resistant to all current vaccines and so called treatments like ivermectin.


----------



## IFocus (9 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I haven't really followed the ivermectin debate mainly as any cursory investigation of the claims usually led to finding several articles that cast doubt on the reports just like the article from Bas above.
> 
> But assuming it does prove an effective treatment after undergoing properly held tests, am I right in saying that ivermectin is touted only as a cure for COVID (relieves the symptoms)? Do they claim that it can prevent you getting COVID just like a vaccine and if one has COVID and one is treated with ivermectin, does it prevent one spreading the virus? If not, you would still need a vaccine to stop the virus spreading. The problem with a spreading virus is the risk of mutations that could end us up with a strain resistant to all current vaccines and so called treatments like ivermectin.





I am largely the same research claims invariably questioned / withdrawn  or anecdotal evidence, then throw in the big pharma conspiracy's. 

There is some truth to lack of company's running research due to no profits involved  but this summary isn't bad.

"The initial lab studies into ivermectin’s effect on the coronavirus involved very high concentrations of the drug. These were many times higher than can be achieved in the body at doses recommended to treat parasites."

I think better treatments are going to be developed soon regardless.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 August 2021)

Yea, wouldn't want to be putting that stuff into your bloodstream lightly.


----------



## wayneL (9 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, wouldn't want to be putting that stuff into your bloodstream lightly.



The irony.

The thing is is that there is long-term data on the effects of Ivermectin in mammals. We had a horse who was involved with the original Ivermectin trials way back in the 80s. 

I realise that the effects of drugs are different in different species, but I understand that there is also some long-term data on the effects of ivermectin in humans.

As with everything, dosage is an important factor but it is my belief according to when I've read that safe levels of ivermectin have been determined.

For me the efficacy of ivermectin for treatment of covid is still unclear, but encouraging and worth following. However what we do have is long-term data, which we don't have with any of the covid injections.

And I hope I don't have to repeat once again, experiences of vaccinations without proper long-term trials. (Zoetis/Hendra anyone?)

And just to illustrate that I am not an actual anti-vaxxer I'm about to go in and have my tetanus booster this week... And extremely happy to do so


----------



## basilio (9 August 2021)

Rightwing radio host and anti-vaxxer dies of Covid​Dick Farrel was a vociferous critic of Dr Anthony Fauci and urged people not to get vaccinated





Johnson and Johnson Janssen Covid-19 vaccine. Photograph: Patrick T Fallon/AFP/Getty Images

Edward Helmore
Mon 9 Aug 2021 01.09 AEST
Last modified on Mon 9 Aug 2021 04.35 AEST


A rightwing TV and radio host who was a vociferous critic of Dr Anthony Fauci and who urged his listeners not to get vaccinated against Covid-19 has died after contracting the virus.

Dick Farrel, who had described Fauci as a “power-tripping lying freak” who conspired with “power trip libb loons”, had urged people not to get vaccinated as recently as June.

He reportedly changed his opinion about vaccines after falling ill and later being admitted to hospital before passing away on 4 August aged 65. “He texted me and told me to ‘Get it!’ He told me this virus is no joke and he said, “I wish I had gotten [the vaccine]!” close friend Amy Leigh Hair wrote on Facebook.









						Rightwing radio host and anti-vaxxer dies of Covid
					

Dick Farrel was a vociferous critic of Dr Anthony Fauci and urged people not to get vaccinated




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (9 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> The irony.
> 
> The thing is is that there is long-term data on the effects of Ivermectin in mammals. We had a horse who was involved with the original Ivermectin trials way back in the 80s.
> 
> ...



I know the irony.  Vaccines in humans have been around since 1905. All a vaccine does is prime the body to attack a virus. It is not a poison to kill parasites.
The latest vaccines have been tested on millions of people and there effects carefully noted to such an extent that we are able to know the side effect to 1 in 10 million case level.

This drug  - at the parasite level dose (not the much higher level for Covid) the side effects listed are:

Headache, dizziness, muscle pain, nausea, or diarrhea may occur. 

To reduce dizziness upon standing, get up slowly when rising from a sitting or lying position.

Remember that your doctor has prescribed this medication because he or she has judged that the benefit to you is greater than the risk of side effects.

Tell your doctor right away if any of these rare but very serious side effects occur: neck/back pain, swelling face/arms/hands/feet, chest pain, fast heartbeat, confusion, seizures, loss of consciousness.





__





						ivermectin oral: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD
					

Find patient medical information for ivermectin oral on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## Knobby22 (9 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Rightwing radio host and anti-vaxxer dies of Covid​Dick Farrel was a vociferous critic of Dr Anthony Fauci and urged people not to get vaccinated
> 
> View attachment 128775
> 
> ...



Yes its a test of intelligence vs tribal allegiance. He has likely convinced many others to make poor decisions that led to their death so let me dance on his grave.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 August 2021)

Moderna Vaccine approved in Australia. 1mil doses to arrive next month.
I think this is the best vaccine of the lot. This is going to be our booster shot next year so I am looking forward to getting it then.

Mr Skerrit said Moderna's results overseas had been encouraging.

"Even after six months it is proving to be 93 per cent efficacious against any infection, 98 per cent against severe disease and 100 per cent against death and that’s really exciting," Mr Skerrit said.









						Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine approved by medical regulator
					

Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine is approved by the regulator, making it the third to be officially added to Australia's vaccine arsenal when the first doses arrive next month.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (9 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Moderna Vaccine approved in Australia. 1mil doses to arrive next month.
> I think this is the best vaccine of the lot. This is going to be our booster shot next year so I am looking forward to getting it then.
> 
> Mr Skerrit said Moderna's results overseas had been encouraging.
> ...



Apparently 10 million doses pre booked, for delivery by year end.








						Moderna vaccine gets provisional approval in Australia
					

Australia’s medical regulator has provisionally approved Moderna’s coronavirus vaccine, paving the way for its use from September when one million doses are due to arrive.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
“We will have 10 million of the Moderna doses arriving before the end of this year,” Prime Minister Scott Morrison said on Monday afternoon in Canberra.
One million doses are due to arrive in September and will go to pharmacies across the country. Three million doses are expected to land each month in October, November and December.

It’s the fourth COVID-19 vaccine approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration so far during the pandemic, and the second vaccine approved using messenger RNA technology. Australia has ordered 25 million doses of the vaccine, with 15 million due to arrive from 2022.
The Moderna vaccine requires two doses, four weeks apart.

The vaccine has also received regulatory approval or emergency authorisation in Britain, Canada, the European Union, the United States, Switzerland and Singapore.

So far 13.7 million doses of the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines have been administered across the country. To date, 9.1 million people have received at least one dose, while almost 4.7 million are now fully immunised


----------



## wayneL (10 August 2021)

FYI


----------



## rederob (10 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> FYI




Given that VAERS already has US data for more than ten times the Israeli population its hardly a concern to medical science, true or otherwise.


----------



## IFocus (10 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> FYI






He has long COVID?

His claims disputed   

Not sure what his gig is but certainly not reliable.

As for Israel its likely true would you trust Netanyahu.


----------



## wayneL (10 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> He has long COVID?
> 
> His claims disputed
> 
> ...



[it's not about cytotoxicity, it's about the document regarding disclosure of adverse events.

The only question here is the veracity of the document... That's what I would like to find out.


----------



## bellenuit (10 August 2021)

Vaccine doubters’ strange fixation with Israel​


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/19/vaccine-skeptics-zero-israel-again-some-reason/


----------



## wayneL (10 August 2021)

Bombshell


----------



## Joules MM1 (10 August 2021)

this is worth a look for ardent followers

especially the heading:
Where each vaccine is being used​Oxford-AstraZeneca​181 COUNTRIES









						Tracking Coronavirus Vaccinations Around the World
					

More than 5.15 billion people worldwide have received a Covid-19 vaccine, equal to about 67.1 percent of the world population.



					www.nytimes.com
				



(paywall with complimentary view)


----------



## rederob (10 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Bombshell




I was going to take on each point, thinking there was something new here.
Most of the speaker's points have been many times debunked.
Here's an example of how ill informed this person is.  At 2:10 he talks about covid "having a breakout in the middle of the summer" but forgets that this is significantly occurring amongst the unvaccinated:





Trotting out tweets containing this drivel is a disservice to the ASF community.


----------



## moXJO (11 August 2021)

rederob said:


> I was going to take on each point, thinking there was something new here.
> Most of the speaker's points have been many times debunked.
> Here's an example of how ill informed this person is.  At 2:10 he talks about covid "having a breakout in the middle of the summer" but forgets that this is significantly occurring amongst the unvaccinated:
> View attachment 128818
> ...



Didn't he mention it was at Massachusetts (or wasn't I listening properly)?
Was he referring to this?
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm


----------



## rederob (11 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Didn't he mention it was at Massachusetts (or wasn't I listening properly)?
> Was he referring to this?
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm



I don't know what he relied on.
He starts by claiming bodies like the CDC don't believe in science, and then gets his facts wrong.
While it is true that no mask can prevent aerosol particles from being breathed, they have been worn in surgical settings for over a century because they are proven to be effective.
His claim that vaccines cause SARS-CoV-2 to become "*deranged*" is baseless.  Prior to vaccines this virus had already mutated millions of times, and will continue to mutate irrespective of vaccines now gaining traction. 
His claim that there is an animal reservoir is false (for now).  If there is one it has eluded tens of thousands animal samplings.  Importantly, international spread has been human to human, so it may indeed be possible to wipe it out via vaccination.  But, like eradicating smallpox, it happens over decades rather than years. His claims about vaccines are absolute bunkum, and that's proven, based on billions of doses administered to date.
He makes a claim about "antibody mediated viral enhancement" (never heard of it!) which he seems to confuse with ADE.  Whatever qualifications he has, he further compounds his misunderstanding of science by confusing the disease with the virus (@ 2:45).
@wayneL introduced the tweet as a "*bombshell*", but it's just another trainwreck from a community beguiled by pretense.


----------



## moXJO (11 August 2021)

Saw a good friends sister and brother in law and got to talking about vaccines. Neither are having it. I was surprised as she worked in health care.

Apparently hesitant as their friend had his legs chopped off due to clots. And another had died from it.

I never really factored in complications from clots. Though I'm sure it's small and I have heard that the virus has a high chance of complications.

Another thing. I got crazy inflammation after the shot. And I can still feel it around the body now. I've also had a noticeable strength decrease.
I was googling around about inflammation and happened to cross over this:


I'm mainly interested in the inflammation damage part of this video. Can someone debunk it?

I have two sons that are in the risk age group for inflammation of the heart.  I'm not getting them vaccinated because everyone thinks it's ok. I'll do it on risk assessment only. Luckily there are posters more knowledgeable on the subject here.

As you can tell I've had enough ongoing symptoms from the vax to cause me to second guess.


----------



## pozindustrial (11 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Saw a good friends sister and brother in law and got to talking about vaccines. Neither are having it. I was surprised as she worked in health care.
> 
> Apparently hesitant as their friend had his legs chopped off due to clots. And another had died from it.
> 
> ...




The basic story is the same everywhere as in the video above. Scientists alarmed at the push for an experimental vaccine to be given to everyone without known side effects and when these arise anyone who questions it is threatened by their employer or funder with loss of a job. Anyone who promotes treatment regimes that have proved to work is likewise threatened. Governments world wide listening to their chief medical officers who all have the same strange advice. 'Put all your eggs in one basket - a vaccine'.


----------



## rederob (11 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm mainly interested in the inflammation damage part of this video. Can someone debunk it?



Any help?


----------



## moXJO (11 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Any help?



I feel this is the textbook response from a lot of organisations. But it's understandable. Because I do wonder if enough study has been done to offer argument against it?

https://www.news-medical.net/amp/ne...-nanoparticle-component-in-mRNA-vaccines.aspx

This study here is more the direction that worries me:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.04.430128v1.full


----------



## moXJO (11 August 2021)

Here's what worries me about the medical profession. They can often pick the easiest route for themselves when it comes to care.

I think it's over a decade ago. Doctors told me they had to cut my fathers leg off due to a antibiotic resistant golden staff infection.
I knew that having the leg cut off would kill my father eventually anyway. He was against it. The doctors were pushing for it until I told them to politely "Fck off". 

Now wounds would open up in a day on his leg as big as your fist.  You could literally see down to the bone  I crammed as much study and used as much science based stuff and a few "crack pot methods" (eg. Packing wounds with  manuka honey) But between those and the antibiotics finally working we managed to get rid of it. 

Now perhaps none of those things worked, or one thing,  or a combination. But he kept the leg and is still walking around with no trouble.

The point is that 90% of doctors would have said take off the leg. Based on conventional wisdom. Very little really know best treatment. But they do (at least I feel) have a handle on risk management. The problem with that is casualties and disabilities are acceptable.


----------



## moXJO (11 August 2021)

I am not saying "Don't take the vaccine".
I think it's to big a risk for certain age groups. But I do wonder the side effects.

But the fact is more people would be dead without it or disabled. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be scrutinised with legitimate concerns.


----------



## pozindustrial (11 August 2021)

In my experience they only look at things from one direction and that is usually the one recommended by their association. The last time I had my cholesterol checked I was told I should be on statins. When I questioned this as an old fashioned approach I was told that was the recommended treatment. They cannot go outside their guidelines, they cannot even look, investigate or read about anything outside of those because it will ultimately be useless. Who recommends the guidelines - one guess, whoever benefits the most, ie drug companies. 

Cure is no longer on the agenda, keep em coming back by maintaining their condition with symptom-reducing drugs. Who is going to argue? The doctor does well with repeat business for life, the pharmacist does well for the same reason and the drug companies also. Patients fund them all. For surgeries the doctor will still be seeing the patient after the op for life because of one drug or another as a result, he keeps on good terms with the surgeon by recommending him/her, the surgeon does well with several visits and an operation, the private hospital does well with more patients going through and pharmacies do very well too. It is a great business plan as long as the patient pays. And don't forget insurance, if you cannot afford it you can get insurance on time payment and then the surgeon and every one else in line can charge more, as long as the patient can pay the correct fee level.

Unfortunately when the leg was cured they all missed out. That result is very bad for business and should not be encouraged so make sure the patient is told that the original diagnosis was not correct! None of them want that information getting out.


----------



## moXJO (11 August 2021)

Do not get me started on surgeons. Those guys are money machines.


----------



## pozindustrial (11 August 2021)

About 10 yrs ago an elderly person dear to me became a zombie, unable to eat, drink, move, or converse and completely paranoid. This story illustrates how medical doctors get caught up and cannot change and one reason why they all (except hospital frontliners) toe the line about vaccines so people who consult their local doctor will not get objective advice.

We rang the family doctor and he went through different scenarios, none of which seemed likely. Going through medications we saw she was taking benzodiazepines (valium, sleeping pills, anti-anxiety pills) and happened to look at the side effects. They were the closest to what we had seen over the previous month than anything else put forward. We had a consult with the doctor, then a psychiatrist and both said it could not be the sleeping pills. This was repeated by at least a dozen doctors at the various hospitals and care centres she went through. These days they warn everyone of their addictive nature, but not then.

At the time I had been in touch with an organisation that was government-funded and had been educating doctors about the evils of these medications and that after 3 weeks of use they begin to cause the symptoms of anxiety and sleeplessness that they are designed to overcome. They told me that doctors often walked out of meetings. After prescribing them for 20-30 years they could not admit there was a problem. So I would not expect an objective opinion from them about vaccines. You need to go elsewhere.


----------



## sptrawler (11 August 2021)

As we have said on here it has become a case of people either take a vaccine, or take the virus, as eventually everyone will get it.
 It becomes a personal choice.
The results coming out of the U.K seem to support that.








						AstraZeneca lead scientist says Delta makes mass testing pointless in UK
					

Sir Andrew Pollard told British MPs that Delta was so widespread, it made sense to only test and treat people with symptoms, rather than all their contacts.




					www.smh.com.au
				



The article:
*London:* The Delta variant of COVID-19 has wrecked any chance of herd immunity, according to the Oxford scientist who led the AstraZeneca vaccine team, as he called for an end to mass testing so Britain could start to live with the virus.

Scientists who addressed the UK’s all-party parliamentary group on coronavirus said it was time to accept that there is no way of stopping the virus spreading through the entire population, and monitoring people with mild symptoms was no longer helpful.

Professor Andrew Pollard, who led the Oxford vaccine team, said it was clear that the Delta variant can still infect people who have been vaccinated, which made herd immunity impossible to reach, even with the UK’s high uptake.
The Department of Health confirmed on Tuesday that more than three quarters of adults in britain have received both jabs and calculated that 60,000 deaths and 66,900 hospitalisations have been prevented by the vaccines.

Speaking to the all-party parliamentary group on coronavirus, Sir Andrew said: “Anyone who is still unvaccinated will, at some point, meet the virus.
“We don’t have anything that will stop transmission, so I think we are in a situation where herd immunity is not a possibility, and I suspect the virus will throw up a new variant that is even better at infecting vaccinated individuals.”
Analysis by Public Health England has shown that when vaccinated people catch the virus, they have a similar viral load to unvaccinated individuals, and may be as infectious.

Paul Hunter, a professor at the University of East Anglia and an expert in infectious diseases, told the committee: “The concept of herd immunity is unachievable because we know the infection will spread in unvaccinated populations and the latest data is suggesting that two doses is probably only 50 per cent protective against infection.
“We need to move away from reporting infections to actually reporting the number of people who are ill. Otherwise we are going to be frightening ourselves with very high numbers that don’t translate into disease burden.”
On Tuesday, Sajid Javid, the Health Secretary, confirmed that third dose booster shots would be given from next month. However, Pollard argued that Britain could be continually vaccinating the population for no real health benefit if mass testing continued.
Loading
“I think as we look at the adult population going forward, if we continue to chase community testing and are worried about those results, we’re going to end up in a situation where we’re constantly boosting to try and deal with something which is not manageable,” he said.
“It needs to be moving to clinically driven testing in which people are willing to get tested and treated and managed, rather than lots of community testing. If someone is unwell, they should be tested, but for their contacts, if they’re not unwell, then it makes sense for them to be in school and being educated.”

Dr Ruchi Sinha, consultant paediatrician at Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust, told MPs and peers that choosing not to vaccinate children would be unlikely to cause problems in the health service.
“What matters is the burden of patient hospitalisation and critical care and actually there hasn’t been as much with this Delta variant,” she said. “They tend to be the children who have got their comorbidities, obesity, or severe neurological problems and those children are already considered for vaccination. COVID-19 on its own in paediatrics is not the problem.


----------



## wayneL (12 August 2021)

Data


----------



## wayneL (12 August 2021)

More stuff to consider:









						MIT & Harvard Study Suggests mRNA Vaccine Might Permanently Alter DNA After All
					

Dr. Doug Corrigan via Science With Dr. Doug “The authors sought to answer how a PCR test is able to detect segments of viral RNA when the virus is presumably absent from a person’s body. They hypot…




					www.algora.com


----------



## rederob (12 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> More stuff to consider:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sadly @wayneL has a very long history of pushing pseudoscience, and this guy's rubbish has been doing the rounds in the antivaxxer space since last year.
Unless there is a fundamental change in biological knowledge, what is being claimed is impossible.  It has been explained by experts many times, and here's one example.
Unfortunately the best read is not free on the web, but Alan McHughen's book "DNA Demystified: Unraveling the Double Helix" also explains that mRNA cannot do what the twit in the linked post claims.
This video shows how mRNA vaccines work:


----------



## IFocus (12 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Sadly @wayneL has a very long history of pushing pseudoscience, and this guy's rubbish has been doing the rounds in the antivaxxer space since last year.
> Unless there is a fundamental change in biological knowledge, what is being claimed is impossible.  It has been explained by experts many times, and here's one example.
> Unfortunately the best read is not free on the web, but Alan McHughen's book "DNA Demystified: Unraveling the Double Helix" also explains that mRNA cannot do what the twit in the linked post claims.
> This video shows how mRNA vaccines work:






Had someone the other day tell me this


----------



## moXJO (12 August 2021)

My major concern isn't the vaccine itself but the carrier used. We simply don't have a lot of studies on the effects of lipid nanoparticles. Or lnp toxicity.

Yes it's regard as relatively safe with the studies we have but almost all literature states that "we need more studies into the effects".

I don't think the vaccine should be compulsory.


----------



## grah33 (12 August 2021)

Recently in the Spectator:








						Most Covid patients at Israeli hospital fully vaccinated? What does this mean for Australia? | The Spectator Australia
					

Israel has been held up as the “gold standard” of how to conduct the coronavirus vaccine rollout. It has seen approximately 70% of its population receive the jab. The Israelis have relied in the main…




					spectator.com.au
				




Basically, the vaccinated are now getting sick .  Top experts elsewhere say it resembles antibody enhancement  ie the vaccine makes you highly infectious.  We might see the same thing happen here.


----------



## Ferret (12 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> Recently in the Spectator:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not good news.


----------



## rederob (12 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> Recently in the Spectator:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This has been covered many times, yet resurfaces time and again.
If everyone is vaccinated who gets sick?
People who are vaccinated, of course.
They are called *breakthrough *cases.
In this study 2.6% were breakthroughs, and none were hospitalised.


grah33 said:


> Top experts elsewhere say it resembles antibody enhancement  ie the vaccine makes you highly infectious.



A false claim.
Where are these experts?


----------



## moXJO (12 August 2021)

rederob said:


> and none were hospitalised.



This is all that matters. 
Yes you may get sick. But you won't be getting some of the extreme symptoms covid can bring. You should also recover faster.


----------



## Belli (13 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> This is all that matters.
> Yes you may get sick. But you won't be getting some of the extreme symptoms covid can bring. You should also recover faster.




A study on breakthrough cases.  The conclusions are "the data reported from these states indicate that breakthrough cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are extremely rare events among those who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19."









						COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States
					

We reviewed the websites and other official state sources for all 50 states and D.C. to see which are providing data on COVID-19 breakthrough cases, hospitalizations and deaths, how regularly, and …




					www.kff.org


----------



## IFocus (13 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Where are these experts?





Written by a lawyer? 

Then the disclaimer?

No comparable data for numbers if unvaccinated.

Then ends with an argument against mandatory vax which is fine but doing the build up to that point using a dodgy scare piece then that would be a lawyer...no?

_Dr Rocco Loiacono is a Senior Lecturer at Curtin University Law School._ 

_*The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of Curtin University.*_


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> About 10 yrs ago an elderly person dear to me became a zombie, unable to eat, drink, move, or converse and completely paranoid. This story illustrates how medical doctors get caught up and cannot change and one reason why they all (except hospital frontliners) toe the line about vaccines so people who consult their local doctor will not get objective advice.
> 
> We rang the family doctor and he went through different scenarios, none of which seemed likely. Going through medications we saw she was taking benzodiazepines (valium, sleeping pills, anti-anxiety pills) and happened to look at the side effects. They were the closest to what we had seen over the previous month than anything else put forward. We had a consult with the doctor, then a psychiatrist and both said it could not be the sleeping pills. This was repeated by at least a dozen doctors at the various hospitals and care centres she went through. These days they warn everyone of their addictive nature, but not then.
> 
> At the time I had been in touch with an organisation that was government-funded and had been educating doctors about the evils of these medications and that after 3 weeks of use they begin to cause the symptoms of anxiety and sleeplessness that they are designed to overcome. They told me that doctors often walked out of meetings. After prescribing them for 20-30 years they could not admit there was a problem. So I would not expect an objective opinion from them about vaccines. You need to go elsewhere.




So what happened ?

Was she taken off the drugs and went back to normal ?


----------



## Belli (13 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of Curtin University.




It isn't an objective opinion piece either.  The closing sentence indicates an established bias.   That detracts from the arguments presented in the article.


----------



## moXJO (13 August 2021)

An article covering some of my concerns on LNP. I feel like it's purposely being neglected in the media.
https://medium.com/microbial-instin...nto-the-brain-what-to-make-of-it-42b1a98dae27

To tell you the truth I feel like AstraZeneca and its problems was a true bait and switch. Pfizer being touted by media as safer may not actually be the case. I suppose we are all long term test studies now. Unfortunately whatever we may develop (in terms of damage to the body) will be explained away.


----------



## rederob (13 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> An article covering some of my concerns on LNP. I feel like it's purposely being neglected in the media.
> https://medium.com/microbial-instin...nto-the-brain-what-to-make-of-it-42b1a98dae27
> 
> To tell you the truth I feel like AstraZeneca and its problems was a true bait and switch. Pfizer being touted by media as safer may not actually be the case. I suppose we are all long term test studies now. Unfortunately whatever we may develop (in terms of damage to the body) will be explained away.



Australia has not yet approved all the vaccines approved by the WHO.
Currently WHO has evaluated that the following vaccines against COVID-19 have met the necessary criteria for safety and efficacy:


AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine
Johnson and Johnson
Moderna
Pfizer/BionTech
Sinopharm
Sinovac
The last 2 vaccines are not as efficacious, but the are also *old school* so won't have the possible concerns raised in the linked article.


----------



## moXJO (13 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Australia has not yet approved all the vaccines approved by the WHO.
> Currently WHO has evaluated that the following vaccines against COVID-19 have met the necessary criteria for safety and efficacy:
> 
> 
> ...



I think AstraZeneca tech has been used in previous vacancies TB, Mars, malaria, Ebola?
AZ uses viral vector.

But yeah who would of thought the west would experiment on the general pop more than the Chinese government seemed prepared to do.


----------



## grah33 (13 August 2021)

spike circulates and makes people sick :


----------



## Knobby22 (13 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> I think AstraZeneca tech has been used in previous vacancies TB, Mars, malaria, Ebola?
> AZ uses viral vector.
> 
> But yeah who would of thought the west would experiment on the general pop more than the Chinese government seemed prepared to do.



But maybe the Chinese vaccines don't work that well.








						China says coexisting with COVID is a folly of the west. But they could be secretly worried about their vaccines
					

Rising nationalism and potential fears about the efficacy of Chinese vaccines mean Beijing may keep the world's most populated nation locked down for years. But with isolation comes risks.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (13 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> But maybe the Chinese vaccines don't work that well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The bottom line will be hospitalisations and deaths prevented.
How efficacious is Sinovac?​A large phase 3 trial in Brazil showed that two doses, administered at an interval of 14 days, had an efficacy of 51% against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection, 100% against severe COVID-19, and 100% against hospitalization starting 14 days after receiving the second dose.

Too much hype is presently about increasing case numbers where high vaccination rates prevail.  Digging deeper we find it's mostly bad maths and poor comprehension.  Imagine if had China vaccinated everyone and Delta led to a 2% breakthrough rate.  That would give a case count greater than Australia's total population!

A real world analysis of China's coronavac is here.


----------



## rederob (13 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> spike circulates and makes people sick :




It's a shame ASF does not have Facebook's policy on removing covid misinformation.
A large slab of Americans are being brainwashed by this rubbish and as a result the USA may never reach herd immunity.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 August 2021)

rederob said:


> The bottom line will be hospitalisations and deaths prevented.
> How efficacious is Sinovac?​A large phase 3 trial in Brazil showed that two doses, administered at an interval of 14 days, had an efficacy of 51% against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection, 100% against severe COVID-19, and 100% against hospitalization starting 14 days after receiving the second dose.
> 
> Too much hype is presently about increasing case numbers where high vaccination rates prevail.  Digging deeper we find it's mostly bad maths and poor comprehension.  Imagine if had China vaccinated everyone and Delta led to a 2% breakthrough rate.  That would give a case count greater than Australia's total population!
> ...



I never doubted that it worked. It is an approved vaccine. The real world figures though  are not quite as good. 
They could be worried about the effectiveness against the new variants. As you state if the breakthrough rate is not good with the variants say 4% then we are talking millions of people. 

That said,maybe China has other reasons for sealing the country off and using Covid as an excuse,  the reporter is jumping somewhat to conclusions.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 August 2021)

rederob said:


> It's a shame ASF does not have Facebook's policy on removing covid misinformation.
> A large slab of Americans are being brainwashed by this rubbish and as a result the USA may never reach herd immunity.



White coat summit! Great name. Hilarious. 
Looked them up and they also push Hydroxychloroquine. Hey it works in the adds, put on a white coat, sell the stuff.
And those suckers will pay to hear you talk.

One of the group details are below: She sounds like Dr Nick Riviera of Simpsons fame!! I love this stuff. Only in America.

Dr. Stella Immanuel is a Houston-based primary care physician and minister. In the video, she claimed that the coronavirus "has a cure."

"It is called hydroxychloroquine, zinc, and Zithromax," Immanuel said. "I know you people want to talk about a mask. Hello? You don’t need a mask. There is a cure."

We rated that False — and Immanuel has a track record of making unproven medical claims, such as believing in alien DNA.

Immanuel has a Texas medical license with specialties in pediatrics and emergency medicine. She says she has been practicing medicine in the United States or Canada for 24 years. She received her medical degree in *Nigeria.*

Immanuel operates a clinic in a strip mall next to her church, Firepower Ministries. In sermons published on YouTube and articles on the church’s now-defunct website, first unearthed by the Daily Beast, Immanuel makes several outlandish medical claims.

Among them: Medical problems like cysts are caused by sex with "spirit husbands" and "spirit wives," DNA from aliens is being used in medicine and scientists are developing vaccines to prevent people from being religious.









						PolitiFact - Who are the doctors in the viral hydroxychloroquine video?
					

Despite social media platforms’ efforts to remove it, millions of people have seen a viral video of doctors making




					www.politifact.com


----------



## moXJO (13 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> White coat summit! Great name. Hilarious.
> Looked them up and they also push Hydroxychloroquine. Hey it works in the adds, put on a white coat, sell the stuff.
> And those losers will pay to hear you talk.
> 
> ...



That video actually peaked my curiosity towards the method of delivery that these vaccines are using. And that was off the back of the amount of inflammation I personally had.

Majority of what you see on the net is rubbish. But that can be both sides.
Even statements like "masks don't work" is both true and false. Context is everything.

But then there is straight out ridiculous stuff like  'vaccines make you magnetic". And yes I did try. Freaked out a bunch of people when I realised I could balance it between my delt and brachii. 

Anyone that says the pfizer, moderna, AstraZeneca  vaccines are safe are wrong.
But the vaccines are a better risk % then catching covid. And that's all it is. It's safer then covid. But only for a small % of people who would actually get serious issues with covid. Unfortunately you don't really know if you fall in that %. So vax the lot is the play you get. And rightly so.

The mrna vax in my mind is a wildcard. We don't really know the % risk vs covid long term. But most likely still better then covid. But this crap hasn't had a lot of studies. Especially long-term. And I'm worried about it. Simply because of lack of information to make an informed choice.


----------



## macca (13 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> That video actually peaked my curiosity towards the method of delivery that these vaccines are using. And that was off the back of the amount of inflammation I personally had.
> 
> Majority of what you see on the net is rubbish. But that can be both sides.
> Even statements like "masks don't work" is both true and false. Context is everything.
> ...



I read that some female Media personalities were joking about their Pfizer Boob jobs and the fact that the swelling in their boobs was only temporary.

Seems rather odd to me that a vaccine for a virus has an effect on their glands.

I have 6 granddaughters, we simply do not know if we will see any great grandkids from any of them do we.

We still remember thalidamide babies , hope to hell that this is not like that


----------



## orr (13 August 2021)

The above post # 927 is an obsenity and should be taken down or edited by moderaters...(or leave as a testament to the ignorance of the author)
It comes from thinking aligned with witch burning and stoning heritics.
To compare the morning sickness therapy mentioned to the current covid  vaccines is embelmatic of a total unawreness of both.
Educate yourself (macca you moron) to what the above mentioned failed pregnancy paliative actually was. And why it has had a revival in another area of treatment. 
That this is presented by  a purveyor of unproven 'crack pot cures' is unsuprising. 
The damage that this type of insidious divel is able to perptectate can only be descired as criminal.

I seldom mention if at all my personal affiiations. One is proffesor of Pediatrics at a major Sydney teaching hospital.


----------



## wayneL (13 August 2021)

orr said:


> The above post # 927 is an obsenity and should be taken down or edited by moderaters...(or leave as a testament to the ignorance of the author)
> It comes from thinking aligned with witch burning and stoning heritics.
> To compare the morning sickness therapy mentioned to the current covid  vaccines is embelmatic of a total unawreness of both.
> Educate yourself (macca you moron) to what the above mentioned failed pregnancy paliative actually was. And why it has had a revival in another area of treatment.
> ...



I fail to see what you are so upset about.

The obvious parallel being drawn is the unknown long term effects of a drug, whether it be a morning sickness drug or a purportedly vaccination drug.

Obviously with any pharmaceutical, they are many unknown unknowns which can only be learnt in the fullness of time. We learnt this from the polio vaccination also.

That, I believe, was the overarching point.

I would add that the fact of effectively mandating  a pharmaceutical which only has emergency approval (or whatever the correct terminology is) is both profoundly stupid and absolutely totalitarian in nature.


----------



## orr (13 August 2021)

Ok.... #929
Put your name to the horrors of the above 'unmetionable therapy' compared to Covid vaccines.
and align yourself with how that is percieved through society and the effect that may have on those suffering facebook as oricle.
Forms of 'attenuated' virus inocuculation have been in use, in the 'West'  since the early 1700's in the the 'East' earlier... predates 'totalitiananism' by just a bit; Whatever be the relevance???. And have made since a better life for many billions.

Vaccinated populations don't suffer Polio. And we have moved a little since the 1950's at a technical level.

moderate #927...  the author's a dangerous fool.


----------



## macca (13 August 2021)

orr said:


> The above post # 927 is an obsenity and should be taken down or edited by moderaters...(or leave as a testament to the ignorance of the author)
> It comes from thinking aligned with witch burning and stoning heritics.
> To compare the morning sickness therapy mentioned to the current covid  vaccines is embelmatic of a total unawreness of both.
> Educate yourself (macca you moron) to what the above mentioned failed pregnancy paliative actually was. And why it has had a revival in another area of treatment.
> ...




Not quite sure what you are trying to say actually, are you a professor of pediatrics ?

Given your manner of speech on this and other posts I think your bedside manner would be abysmal.

If you wish to disagree with me then do so, but the personal insults you hurl at people that question any of the dogma that you espouse do get rather tiresome.

And just to address the above diatribe, it is quite simply impossible for a reasonable number of tests to have been done on pregnant women, obviously at least 9 months after the vaccine is needed.

I knew a person who suffered because of Thalidomide and it was no joke, trust me


----------



## Knobby22 (13 August 2021)

Don't worry, Macca.
Your Granddaughters will be OK.
It's not a drug. Drugs have many side effects, some unknown.
My glands in my neck and under my arms on the side of the injection went up when I had my vaccine. This is a natural response because that is where the lymph nodes are that help form the response to infection. It is a common reaction in vaccines, not unusual in the slightest. (Don't believe me, look it up).

It is a vaccine, just a way of helping the immune system. First invented 100 years ago.
There are things that go wrong sometimes, the immune system acting inappropriately such has occurred rarely with the Oxford University AstraZeneca vaccine but that same blood clot effect happens 10 fold by catching the virus in reality. This is because it is caused by an inappropriate response by the body's immune system to the virus.

There are a lot of scientists and medical people in many countries involved. Have some faith they know what they are doing.
If they thought there was any.... any possibility of such a horrific event do you think they would be quiet. They are people like you and me with children and grand children of their own. And they are located in many countries. The Germans who developed Pfizer, the English and Australians who developed the Oxford vaccine, the Americans in New Jersey who developed Moderna, there are other vaccine makers also.

Don't forget there was testing done before it was released and there has been testing and detailed studies since of participants for any side effects , and when these side effects have been found they have been published. This is over many millions of people.
You will find when you eventually take the vaccine that you get regular follow ups from the government asking about any effects.
All the doctors around the world are also looking for anything occurring.

There are people and foreign governments within the internet who love to scare and provide false facts for the gullible and paranoid.
My cousin was given a fake scientific paper. Beautifully written purported to be published in a medical journal  but a total fake.

I suggest you go listen to Dr Norman Swan and his interviews with medical professionals on his weekly show.
Go and look up the vaccines, read their own comments about efficacy, adverse effects. There are scientists looking for these, which is why the paper MoXjo showed us was so good about lipids. They are looking for rare events.

In the end there is no conspiracy between all the doctors, medical professionals, scientists and politicians. They are not evil and frankly a lot of them couldn't organise a fire in a match factory much less organize more than 500,000 conspirators to destroy mankind while not telling anyone as well as getting the Chinese and Russians on board.


----------



## grah33 (14 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> White coat summit! Great name. Hilarious.
> Looked them up and they also push Hydroxychloroquine. Hey it works in the adds, put on a white coat, sell the stuff.
> And those suckers will pay to hear you talk.
> 
> ...



Regardless of her unusual beliefs, there seem to be many out there (doctors) who  think it can be treated with drugs


----------



## Knobby22 (14 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> Regardless of her unusual beliefs, there seem to be many out there (doctors) who  think it can be treated with drugs



It can be treated (not cured)with drugs. They are trialling heaps of stuff. Some have mild effects and fix some aspects but the golden bullet hasn't been found so far.

If someone finds it they will become very wealthy. Hence all the cash being splashed. Mesoblast got some of it for their lung (cytotoxic storm) treatment.


----------



## Belli (14 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> It can be treated (not cured)with drugs. They are trialling heaps of stuff. Some have mild effects and fix some aspects but the golden bullet hasn't been found so far.



And that is what clinicians, and others involved in scientific research, do basically.  They want to know what works and what doesn't.  So they gather data, assesses it and reevaluate as new verifiable information comes to hand.  It is a very simple concept really although the process is complex.


----------



## bellenuit (14 August 2021)

Treating or curing with drugs will only be an answer if the disease can be caught quickly and eliminated. But so long as it has a chance to spread, it has a chance to mutate. This is always the big risk, because the mutation may not be treatable or curable with the drugs released so far. That is why vaccination is so important. With the current vaccines not seemingly as effective against the Delta strain as they were against the previous strains, the solution is not to dump vaccines, but to work harder to come up with newer vaccines or modifications to those out there that are more effective against Delta and any newer strain that emerges.

This is a battle that requires everything to be thrown at it that is known to have some success. Vaccines, cures/treatment and of course the humble masks, social distancing and hand washing when needed.


----------



## wayneL (14 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Treating or curing with drugs will only be an answer if the disease can be caught quickly and eliminated. But so long as it has a chance to spread, it has a chance to mutate. This is always the big risk, because the mutation may not be treatable or curable with the drugs released so far. That is why vaccination is so important. With the current vaccines not seemingly as effective against the Delta strain as they were against the previous strains, the solution is not to dump vaccines, but to work harder to come up with newer vaccines or modifications to those out there that are more effective against Delta and any newer strain that emerges.
> 
> This is a battle that requires everything to be thrown at it that is known to have some success. Vaccines, cures/treatment and of course the humble masks, social distancing and hand washing when needed.



The thing that I find objectionable in managing this disease is the number of erroneous assumptions that are taken as gospel.
The first order of priority is determining which things are true, which things are false, and which things are as yet undetermined.

In that way we can find an approach that is optimal.

As it stands at the moment, these things have not been determined and therefore, some of the approaches may be ineffective and also counterproductive.

As a case in point the dogma of lockdowns and forcing people to stay inside as much as possible. I think it is fairly evident that that is very little evidence of transmission in the outdoors. This indicates that lockdowns are counterproductive... And even on the level of getting enough sun and there for natural vitamin d.

Also the so-called health authorities are not advising the population on how to manage their overall health and lifestyle in order to minimise the deleterious effects of covid. Being overweight, smoking, excessive alcohol consumption, all evidently  add to the danger.

So why are our health thought is not counselling us to minimise risk by becoming healthier? I did they spelt nonsense which are negative for mental health like not talking to anybody?

There can only be two possible answers, either gross incompetence, or some other agenda.

It seems to be very well accepted that this disease will be with us indefinitely, and also that the injections are under performing to expectations.

Therefore I would think every effective strategy would be to encourage people to become healthier. This would not only ameliorate fidelity various effects of covert but also the deleterious effects of a whole host of other things like cardiovascular disease and such like.


----------



## rederob (14 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> As a case in point the dogma of lockdowns and forcing people to stay inside as much as possible. I think it is fairly evident that that is very little evidence of transmission in the outdoors. This indicates that lockdowns are counterproductive...



Lockdowns have been proven effective (ask the NSW Premier what happens when you delay them), and people are *not *forced to stay indoors.


wayneL said:


> Also the so-called health authorities are not advising the population on how to manage their overall health and lifestyle in order to minimise the deleterious effects of covid.



They are, but you won't look and seem not to be listening either.


wayneL said:


> There can only be two possible answers, either gross incompetence, or some other agenda.



Maybe that applies to people who don't look and listen!


wayneL said:


> It seems to be very well accepted that this disease will be with us indefinitely, and also that the injections are under performing to expectations.



The original SARS jut disappeared, so SARS-CoV-2 might, in time.  And your claim on vaccinations is simply incorrect:


----------



## bellenuit (14 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Also the so-called health authorities are not advising the population on how to manage their overall health and lifestyle in order to minimise the deleterious effects of covid. Being overweight, smoking, excessive alcohol consumption, all evidently  add to the danger.
> 
> So why are our health thought is not counselling us to minimise risk by becoming healthier?




Yes they do and the authorities have been advising the population for umpteen years regarding the dangers of these excesses. We have had anti-smoking campaigns, warnings of alcohol abuse, risks of heart disease from inappropriate and/or excessive food consumption and lack of exercise etc. Yes we know that a healthy lifestyle will boost your immune system and help prevent getting COVID and may mitigate its effects if one gets infected by COVID.

But we were hit by a fast spreading pandemic and it is simply wishful thinking to believe a campaign to promote better health would be the answer, particularly since such campaigns have only had partial success for years (more so against smoking, less so against obesity and excess alcohol consumption). The only *realistic* way to slow the spread of the virus was to develop a vaccine and vaccinate as many people as possible and to combine that with relatively easy anti-contagion measures such as hand washing, using masks and social distancing. This is the plan they took and has been fairly successful to date, though the Delta variant is proving more problematic. There is no way that a pandemic could be stopped by relying on substantial lifestyle changes. Such changes take place very slowly and would take decades to be effective. That's too slow for fighting a pandemic.

And the only way to ensure that the population moves in the right direction health wise would be to implement draconian measures to push them to be healthier. Perhaps banning fast foods, forcing participation in sports in schools, banning cigarettes completely and  increasing the cost of alcohol so that it becomes prohibitively expensive.

Could you imagine the outcry from people of your ilk who call forced mask wearing in certain locations a form of tyranny.


----------



## Belli (14 August 2021)

And a short lesson on the meaning of vaccine efficacy by two Professors of the University of Quebec.









						How effective are COVID-19 vaccines? Here's what the stats mean … and what they don't
					

Vaccine efficacy is usually expressed as a percentage, but what is it actually measuring? Statisticians explain what the numbers mean, and what they say about how well a vaccine can protect us.




					theconversation.com


----------



## wayneL (15 August 2021)

This is a really good discussion which FWIW, doesn't carry a particular narrative IMO.

Smart dude, this Eric Weinstein.


----------



## bellenuit (15 August 2021)

No, you can’t be ‘so healthy’ that you’re naturally immune to COVID​








						No, you can’t be ‘so healthy’ that you’re naturally immune to COVID
					

Tired of that one friend who keeps dm-ing you on Instagram about your 'immune system?' Show them this post.




					www.oregonlive.com


----------



## wayneL (15 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> No, you can’t be ‘so healthy’ that you’re naturally immune to COVID​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, that would be like saying you're naturally immune to a cold or flu.... doesn't happen. Personally haven't seen that claim.

However one can expect extra trouble from any virus if the immune system is not up to scratch, the corollary of which is, a healthy immune system will be able to defend against the virus more successfully.

People who argue for vitamin d and all the other strategies are arguing for a better immune defence against the disease if one catches it.

That is a whole 'nuther argument.

Hence I reckon that article is using an argumentative fallacy, similar to the fallacious argument that those who prefer to wait for better data are in fact anti-vaxxers. 

Subtle propaganda.


----------



## IFocus (15 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well, that would be like saying you're naturally immune to a cold or flu.... doesn't happen. Personally haven't seen that claim.
> 
> However one can expect extra trouble from any virus if the immune system is not up to scratch, the corollary of which is, a healthy immune system will be able to defend against the virus more successfully.
> 
> ...




FFS you do not know if you have an underling condition but COVID *will *find it for you repeat FFS you simply don't know.

How many examples from the States do you need of anti vaxers who get COVID and then realising it was a bad decision not to vax.

Its coming and you will almost certainly get COVID just like the rest of us why listen to fringe BS and outliers?.


----------



## wayneL (15 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> FFS you do not know if you have an underling condition but COVID *will *find it for you repeat FFS you simply don't know.
> 
> How many examples from the States do you need of anti vaxers who get COVID and then realising it was a bad decision not to vax.
> 
> Its coming and you will almost certainly get COVID just like the rest of us why listen to fringe BS and outliers?.



The outliers are the fatalities, being in the order of greater than 3 standard deviations.... FFS 

And so called "fringe bs" I listen to are along the lines of the vid I posted earlier, the interview with Eric Weinstein.

If that's fringe to you, then you are further left than Trotsky, Komrade.


----------



## IFocus (16 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> The outliers are the fatalities, being in the order of greater than 3 standard deviations.... FFS
> 
> And so called "fringe bs" I listen to are along the lines of the vid I posted earlier, the interview with Eric Weinstein.
> 
> If that's fringe to you, then you are further left than Trotsky, Komrade.





You are welcome to failed Twitter opinions complete with agendas that you keep posting buts its the last place for objective reasoning.


----------



## bellenuit (18 August 2021)

A grim warning from Israel: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta​




__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.sciencemag.org


----------



## wayneL (19 August 2021)

Grist for the mill


----------



## rederob (19 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Grist for the mill




Only if you cannot understand maths, don't care about who dies, and toss in data that not actually show what is suggested regarding vaccine deaths - *all* issues previously covered in this thread.


----------



## Knobby22 (19 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Grist for the mill




Definitely grist. According to his stats one in 200 die if they catch the virus if they are between 50 and 69 (not to mention long term effects).
I am glad not to have those odds now.

Just another pathetic anti vaxxer, I reckon the real Mick Jagger would give him a donk to the nose if they met up. I hope he is not a Stones fan.
The thing is Mick Jagger is  extremely intelligent unlike this wannabee who is a dullard.









						Mick Jagger hits out at anti-vaxxers: "You can't argue with these people"
					

Mick Jagger has opened up on his distrust of anti-vaccination activists and conspiracy theorists, after taking aim at them on his latest track.




					www.nme.com


----------



## wayneL (19 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Definitely grist. According to his stats one in 200 die if they catch the virus if they are between 50 and 69 (not to mention long term effects).
> I am glad not to have those odds now.
> 
> Just another pathetic anti vaxxer, I reckon the real Mick Jagger would give him a donk to the nose if they met up. I hope he is not a Stones fan.
> ...



Mike Jagger is a







Knobby22 said:


> Definitely grist. According to his stats one in 200 die if they catch the virus if they are between 50 and 69 (not to mention long term effects).
> I am glad not to have those odds now.
> 
> Just another pathetic anti vaxxer, I reckon the real Mick Jagger would give him a donk to the nose if they met up. I hope he is not a Stones fan.
> ...



Fun facts.

Mike Jagger had a chem degree, Mick Jagger is an elderly drug addled musician.

Those with PhDs are among the most vaccine-hesitant.

Ad hominem and using the term anti vaxxer makes you the dullard, Knobby.

If you want to disagree with this point try some data and facts rather than emotion.


----------



## Knobby22 (19 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Mike Jagger is a
> Fun facts.
> 
> Mike Jagger had a chem degree, Mick Jagger is an elderly drug addled musician.
> ...



He published the data himself and doesn't understand it. Just a dullard. 1 in 200 dead not to mention the other guff he showed. Honestly thick as two short planks.

The real Mick Jagger is a genius. He got into Uni but didn't finish it as he was too successful in every facet of his life.
The real Mick Jagger wouldn't clean his boots on this loser. Maybe you should listen to his new song or read that article I published.
Personally I would much prefer to listen to the real Mick Jagger.


----------



## rederob (19 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> If you want to disagree with this point try some data and facts rather than emotion.



Doctorates  (PhDs)  are not only are the *"narrowest" *of all professional qualifications, they generally only account for a little over 1% of a nation's total population and comprise a very small share those who hold degree and higher qualifications - eg. USA data below).




In the USA those holding the higher level and more rounded Masters qualification are the *least *hesitant of all educated groups, by a significant margin.
So the data is unequivocal in that the least vaccine hesitant are also those with higher levels of qualifications.
It's no surprise that people who post as @wayneL does will have an unusual view of what facts actually mean when presented in a proper context.


----------



## moXJO (19 August 2021)

Got the second dose of Pfizer today. Literally got over the inflammation that ended up in my knuckles yesterday... Yay.

The new covid facility was very well set-up.
So many nurses that I had one literally directing me where to go every 5 steps. This is probably an understatement. Looks like they are getting ready for high numbers.

Mentioned the inflammation and how long I've had it and they freaked a bit. Bit reluctant to give me another dose. But I honestly couldn't care at this point, just get it over with.
The mentioned to "see a gp". I have never had a decent answer from a gp. I can narrow the advice down already:
" Let's see what happens in a few days".

Today I was helping out some roof tilers (which is possibly the shittest job on earth). So that was fun.  God I hate friends, they have all asked for favours at the same time. 

Anyway the extreme activity seemed to lessen the side effects. Well at least so far. Everyone has told me the second shot is bad. Last time I went home and slept.


----------



## IFocus (19 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Got the second dose of Pfizer today. Literally got over the inflammation that ended up in my knuckles yesterday... Yay.
> 
> The new covid facility was very well set-up.
> So many nurses that I had one literally directing me where to go every 5 steps. This is probably an understatement. Looks like they are getting ready for high numbers.
> ...





I had the 2nd AZ today as well Mo no side effects so far no sore arm nada, keep an eye on the inflammation could well be some thing else.


----------



## Belli (20 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> I had the 2nd AZ today as well Mo no side effects so far no sore arm nada, keep an eye on the inflammation could well be some thing else.




Soon AZ will probably be no more.  Name change to Vaxzevria is in the pipeline_._ Guessing the bad vibes may have had something to do with it.  What to call it now?  Vax, VZ, RIA?


----------



## bellenuit (20 August 2021)

Belli said:


> Soon AZ will probably be no more.  Name change to Vaxzevria is in the pipeline_._ Guessing the bad vibes may have had something to do with it.  What to call it now?  Vax, VZ, RIA?



The name is changed to Vaxzevria. It is to bring it in line with the naming conventions in Canada and Europe. The issue wasn't the efficacy or risk factors of the vaccine, but things like border control and the introduction of vaccine passports of sorts, where those vaccinated using AstraZeneca were been classified as unvaccinated.


----------



## grah33 (20 August 2021)

The narrative seems to be changing on the news now.  At 80%  places open up , and even then we'll be locked down.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 August 2021)

Just saw on the news NSW recent vaccination rate is now similar to the record holders Denmark and Canada.
A good sign  for Australia as a whole as vaccination becomes more available.


----------



## grah33 (22 August 2021)

frightening ...


----------



## grah33 (22 August 2021)

Pat Cash explains his view (doesn't trust vaccines at all):








						I’m angry about COVID lies – tennis legend Pat Cash - LifeSite
					

'In our national anthem, in the first paragraph, it says, ‘We are young and free’ – we are not free any more. And that is absolutely clear. They are locking down. But... to think that we have a free society anywhere, for that matter, is questionable.'




					www.lifesitenews.com


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> I had the 2nd AZ today as well Mo no side effects so far no sore arm nada, keep an eye on the inflammation could well be some thing else.



Definitely the vax. Just got it a bit in my shoulders again today.
Completely anecdotal but sunshine and working hard seemed to let me bypass the worst of it.
This time it attacked my eyes. 

If I had my time over I would have got AZ. Safer without the lipid nanoparticles and protects you for longer than pfizer.


----------



## wayneL (22 August 2021)

Hmmm


----------



## sptrawler (22 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> I had the 2nd AZ today as well Mo no side effects so far no sore arm nada, keep an eye on the inflammation could well be some thing else.



The mother in law had here second jab of AZ, about a week ago, rang us yesterday she has pneumonia could be co incidental and she is 89?
A close friend (the garbo) had his first AZ jab last week, three days later sweats, aching joints and stomach cramps.
Myself absolutely no side effects, just one of life's legends, well that's what I told my mate. 🤣


----------



## grah33 (22 August 2021)

The thing that has changed is the likely cause of the problem ...
It's a principle in troubleshooting.  So yeah, if something new is happening to you, it's likely as a result of the vaccine.


----------



## grah33 (22 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Hmmm




I heard he really did sterilize many people in Africa through vaccination, and this wasn't reported in the  media (deliberately).  The answer to what the heck is really going on might just be a little simple guess, as often is the case.  We'll find out sooner or later, I suppose.


----------



## grah33 (22 August 2021)

ased November 4: “This proved right our worst fears; that this WHO campaign is not about eradicating neonatal tetanus but a well-coordinated forceful population control mass sterilization exercise using a proven fertility regulating vaccine. This evidence was presented to the Ministry of Health before the third round of immunization but was ignored.” (Source) Dr. Ngare brought up several points about the mass tetanus vaccination program in Kenya that caused the Catholic doctors to become suspicious: Dr. Ngare told LifeSiteNews that several things alerted doctors in the Church’s far-flung medical system of 54 hospitals, 83 health centers, and 17 medical and nursing schools to the possibility the anti-tetanus campaign was secretly an anti-fertility campaign. Why, they ask does it involve an unprecedented five shots (or “jabs” as they are known, in Kenya) over more than two years and why is it applied only to women of childbearing years, and why is it being conducted without the usual fanfare of government publicity? “Usually we give a series three shots over two to three years, we give it anyone who comes into the clinic with an open wound, men, women or children.” said Dr. Ngare. But it is the five vaccination regime that is most alarming. “The only time tetanus vaccine has been given in five doses is when it is used as a carrier in fertility regulating vaccines laced with the pregnancy hormone, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) developed by WHO in 1992.” (Source) UNICEF: A History of Taking Advantage of Disasters to Mass Vaccinate It should be noted that UNICEF and WHO distribute these vaccines for free and that there are financial incentives for the Kenyan government to participate in these programs. When funds from the UN are not enough to purchase yearly allotments of vaccines, an organization started and funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, GAVI, provides extra funding for many of these vaccination programs in poor countries. Also, there was no outbreak of tetanus in Kenya, only the perceived “threat” of tetanus due to local flood conditions. These local disasters are a common reason UNICEF goes into poorer countries with free vaccines to begin mass vaccination programs. (elsewhere says that they were lied to ...)


----------



## Knobby22 (22 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> distribute these vaccines for free  funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, GAVI, provides extra funding for many of these vaccination programs in poor countries. Also, there was no outbreak of tetanus ...)




Tetanus is in the environment generally so that is incorrect to start with but the whole article is a baseless conspiracy theory. 









						False: WHO created a tetanus shot that can attack pregnancy hormones.
					

Conspiracy theorists have said that WHO sponsored a tetanus vaccination program that sterilized women. The claim is baseless.




					www.logically.ai


----------



## basilio (22 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Tetanus is in the environment generally so that is incorrect to start with but the whole article is a baseless conspiracy theory.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That analysis is well worth reading to appreciate how projects can be twisted beyond recognition - and then believed. There is an even more comprehensive analysis of the situation.

Check it out.









						ANALYSIS: Why does an old, false claim about tetanus vaccine safety refuse to die?
					

An old rumour that a tetanus vaccine causing infertility in women is resurfacing, this time in West Africa. Vinayak Bhardwaj explains - as many others have over the last 20 years - why this claim is false and why it’s important to keep debunking it.




					africacheck.org


----------



## Knobby22 (22 August 2021)

Great post Bas.
I find it fascinating how conspiracy theories morph to suit the times. 
Like bring in modern figures as in this case.


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> My sister in law has her masters in mathematics. She is not having the Vax for now (but like me has not discounted it at some point in the future).



 and she isn't a ASF member  ??

 i thought she would be prime for a share portfolio ( maybe even   a HFT devotee )


----------



## wayneL (22 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> and she isn't a ASF member  ??
> 
> i thought she would be prime for a share portfolio ( maybe even   a HFT devotee )



Lurker.

But doesn't want to reduce her IQ points by getting into debates here. LOL


----------



## wayneL (22 August 2021)

I couldn't really figure out which thread to put this in, but this demonstrates how far down the road of the Idiocracy we have traveled.


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Lurker.
> 
> But doesn't want to reduce her IQ points by getting into debates here. LOL



 i was hoping she would boost the IQ here , give Doctor Bourse and others   some data-crunching discussions  and tips


----------



## grah33 (22 August 2021)

basilio said:


> That analysis is well worth reading to appreciate how projects can be twisted beyond recognition - and then believed. There is an even more comprehensive analysis of the situation.
> 
> Check it out.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't rely too much on fact checkers.  They do a lot of bull as well


----------



## bellenuit (23 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> I wouldn't rely too much on fact checkers.  They do a lot of bull as well



Did you even do a rudimentary check of that story before you posted it?


----------



## basilio (23 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> I wouldn't rely too much on fact checkers.  They do a lot of bull as well




Really  Grah ? Can you show us where fact checkers get it so wrong  please ? 
The whole point of fact checking sites is to look for evidence of statements.  So if you can produce examples where fact checking has been provably wrong I would be very interested.

By the way do you think that this particular instance is one where the fact checkers got it wrong ?


----------



## Belli (23 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> But doesn't want to reduce her IQ points by getting into debates here. LOL




That's a shame.  Would have been nice to see if a masters in maths could provide a similar analysis as a counterpoint to this





__





						Per-capita, per-state COVID-19 case plots, with projections
					





					chrisbillington.net
				








__





						Per-capita, per-country COVID-19 case plots, with projections
					





					chrisbillington.net


----------



## sptrawler (23 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Really  Grah ? Can you show us where fact checkers get it so wrong  please ?
> The whole point of fact checking sites is to look for evidence of statements.  So if you can produce examples where fact checking has been provably wrong I would be very interested.
> 
> By the way do you think that this particular instance is one where the fact checkers got it wrong ?



The fact checkers I have watched, depend a lot on the reporters leaning, whether they see the facts as (half true or mostly true) or (half false or mostly false).
It is very subjective in the shows I have seen, it would also depend on who selects the subject matter, or if the subject matter is decided by independent parties.
A fact checking show on the ABC, will be completely different from a fact checking show on a News Corp programme, even if it is fact checking the same subject.
That is why I take most of it with a grain of salt.


----------



## rederob (23 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The fact checkers I have watched, depend a lot on the reporters leaning, whether they see the facts as (half true or mostly true) or (half false or mostly false).
> It is very subjective in the shows I have seen, it would also depend on who selects the subject matter, or if the subject matter is decided by independent parties.
> A fact checking show on the ABC, will be completely different from a fact checking show on a News Corp programme, even if it is fact checking the same subject.
> That is why I take most of it with a grain of salt.



Why not provide examples?
A fact does not change.
A fact also lives in a context.
I don't know of any Australian news channels that are fact checkers.  The closest I know of is the ABC's *Media Watch* which is about media analysis rather than facts per se.   
@bellenuit legitimately asks what checking was carried out prior to posting.  It is undeniable that post #967 has been disproven many times, yet finds it way here to pervert the value of vaccinations.
On that topic there have been regular references to Israel's number of vaccinated people contracting covid, suggesting that vaccines are not actually effective.  But when you look at what underpins the data it conveys the exact opposite intent to that of the poster's.
On the subject of misinformation we could look at post #973.  A claim in that post suggests the American Association of Pediatrics has made  an odd "statement".  In fact, *the AAP made no such statement*.  It's a concoction from antivaxxers or other miscreants who mistook an article from bioethecists in the AAP's publication entitled *Pediatrics, *where concerns were raised about the use of "natural" in messaging on health.  Furthermore, they *never *suggested that "breastfeeding isn't natural".
It's an indictment of our society that people choose to deliberately or through sheer ignorance misrepresent important health concepts and put lives at risk.


----------



## sptrawler (23 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Why not provide examples?
> A fact does not change.
> A fact also lives in a context.
> I don't know of any Australian news channels that are fact checkers.  The closest I know of is the ABC's *Media Watch* which is about media analysis rather



Oh well here is the thoughts of two of the presenters of *Media Watch, *so maybe take it up with them I can't be bothered with your nonsense.
As I said, the ABC will depict the same issue completely differently to News Corp, you can waffle as much as you want, knock yourself out. 
The really funny part is you think other people are obsessive, when you would be the most obsessive person, I've ever communicated with. There isn't anything you wont harp on endlessly about, until you have bored the other person into submission.🤣








						Media Watch host calls for the ABC to burst out of its bubble to ensure its survival
					

The ABC’s future is dependent upon breaking out of its inner-city bubble and getting out into the suburbs, Media Watch host Paul Barry said last night.“We represent what we regard as common sense well-educated objective point of view and you know what? Maybe it’s not. Maybe you’ll agree with me...




					mumbrella.com.au
				



From the article:
The ABC’s future is dependent upon breaking out of its inner-city bubble and getting out into the suburbs, Media Watch host Paul Barry said last night.
Barry made the comments on Wednesday night in the inner-Sydney suburb of Glebe while interviewing his Media Watch predecessor Jonathon Holmes about Holmes’ book on the future of the ABC, About Aunty.
During the interview, Holmes warned Nine’s acquisition of Fairfax may result in further pressure on the ABC from News Corp and its conservative commentators.

“One of the scariest realities of Australian media right now is this – there were three gorillas – News, Fairfax and the ABC. We don’t really know what the consequence of nine taking over Fairfax will be down the track but if a consequence is that the major newspapers – The Age, The Sydney Morning Herald and The Australian Financial Review are even further defunded than they are now.

“You will effectively be left with with two gorillas – a right-wing News Corporation and left-wing ABC. That is extremely dangerous for Australia and extremely dangerous to the ABC. It’s desperately important that we’re not left… News Corp is always going to portray the ABC as being left and of course [this] will be true in comparison with News whatever you do.

“I don’t know what the answer to that is but it worries the heck out of me.”

Holmes repeated the long-asked question of where the ABC can find a “right-wing Philip Adams” to counter what many critics of the national broadcaster see as its ‘left-wing’ bias, something he partly put down to the demographics of the organisation’s staff.

“I think the sort of person that most ABC people think about when they make their programs are the sort of people [who] think roughly the same as they do and I think they think that’s somebody a little bit left of centre.

“They are talking to people like me and they are not talking to people who think differently to me.”

Faced with murmurs of dissent from the audience, many of whom were Friends of the ABC, Barry came to Holmes’ defence, saying: “The ABC is predominantly staffed with people like us, some younger than me and him, luckily.

“People who are generally urban, inner-city, well-educated and we have a take on life and our take on life differs from 20% of the population of 30 or 40 or 50% of the population, whatever it is.

“Those people are not generally well represented. We don’t go when we do Q&A, we don’t go to Bankstown often to bring in the Lebanese audience or all of the working-class audience.

“When when we do most of these programs we don’t have working-class commentators, we don’t have many Muslim commentators, we don’t have many right-wing nutty Catholic commentators. There’s a whole bunch of people whose voices are not represented.”


----------



## wayneL (23 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Oh well here is the thoughts of two of the presenters of *Media Watch, *so maybe take it up with them I can't be bothered with your nonsense.
> As I said, the ABC will depict the same issue completely differently to News Corp, you can waffle as much as you want, knock yourself out.
> The really funny part is you think other people are obsessive, when you would be the most obsessive person, I've ever communicated with. There isn't anything you wont harp on endlessly about, until you have bored the other person into submission.🤣
> 
> ...



Notice the only pejorative was reserved for Christians?

Not defending the Catholic church per se, but that ******** wouldn't dare say something like "nutty Islamist commentators"

Just an observation


----------



## sptrawler (23 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Notice the only pejorative was reserved for Christians?
> 
> Not defending the Catholic church per se, but that ******** wouldn't dare say something like "nutty Islamist commentators"
> 
> Just an observation



Yes I agree,  there would be hell to pay, the problem is they can't see how supercilious and arrogant they appear.
" urban, inner-city, well-educated and we have a take on life and our take on life differs from 20% of the population of 30 or 40 or 50% of the population, whatever it is."

Yet they present the "facts". FFS.
They present the "facts", they want to present and the omit the "facts", they don't want to present. As all the media outlets do.


----------



## rederob (23 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Oh well here is the thoughts of two of the presenters of *Media Watch, *so maybe take it up with them I can't be bothered with your nonsense.
> As I said, the ABC will depict the same issue completely differently to News Corp, you can waffle as much as you want, knock yourself out.
> The really funny part is you think other people are obsessive, when you would be the most obsessive person, I've ever communicated with. There isn't anything you wont harp on endlessly about, until you have bored the other person into submission.🤣
> 
> ...



You have wasted a lot of time confusing *opinions *with facts.
Do you have anything factual in relation to fact checking programs, as I am not aware of any?


----------



## sptrawler (23 August 2021)

rederob said:


> You have wasted a lot of time confusing *opinions *with facts.
> Do you have anything factual in relation to fact checking programs, as I am not aware of any?



You were the one that brought up *media watch, *not me I was just proving to you that they agree with my take on the issue.
You obviously are the one wasting a lot of time bringing up waffle as usual.
Now no doubt you are going to be take us down another waffle walk, re opinions.
It is only the opinion of the presenter, as to which facts are presented, tested or checked, therefore any media presentation is actually the opinion they wish to present, be that media watch or Bolt or any other fact checking presentation.
They base there shows, on the presentation, questioning and checking of "facts", or so they say, I say none of them give all the "facts" they give the "facts" that support their argument or belief, no matter where the "facts" come from.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

We are staring to see the media "facts" coming out as we speak.
This is the media's "facts", lets see what happens? Are these "facts" or just what the way this media wants to present as the "facts".
If indeed they are the facts, when will it ever be possible to return to normal?
What are they basing the "facts" on, apart from ANU experts, which in itself must mean it is absolutely accurate, because they always give the "facts".




__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.couriermail.com.au
				



From the article:
The Prime Minister’s plan to reopen the country at a 70-80 per cent vaccination rate and treat the Delta variant “like the flu” has been slammed as dangerous and reckless by some of the nation’s top health and economic researchers.
According to modelling from the Australian National University, if Scott Morrison’s current coronavirus plan proceeds, tens of thousands Australians will likely die and hundreds of thousands will likely develop cases of long Covid.

“We found substantial morbidity and mortality is likely to occur if the Australian government sticks to the national plan,” ANU economics professor and study co-author Quentin Grafton said.

*If Australia reopens with 70 per cent of Australians aged over 16 fully vaccinated, there could eventually be 6.9 million cases of Covid-19, 154,000 hospitalisations, and 29,000 fatalities, Professor Grafton said.*

“We simply can’t afford to do that, both in terms of lives and long-term illness from Covid,” he said.
And even if the PM waits until 80 per cent of the adult population are vaccinated to open up, thousands of lives will still be destroyed, according to the modelling.

*“Assuming 80 per cent vaccination coverage for only those over 16, as per the national plan, there could be approximately 25,000 fatalities and some 270,000 cases of long Covid,” Professor Grafton said.*
“The consequences of prematurely and fully relaxing public health measures to suppress Covid-19, even after vaccinating 80 per cent of adults, would likely be irreversible, and unacceptable to many Australians,” study co-author and University of Western Australia senior research officer Zoë Hyde echoed.

“It’s simply too dangerous to treat Covid-19 like the flu,” Dr Hyde said.


----------



## moXJO (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> They base there shows, on the presentation, questioning and checking of "facts", or so they say, I say none of them give all the "facts" they give the "facts" that support their argument or belief, no matter where the "facts" come from.



This right here. I've seen so many twists and turns from supposed fact checkers it's laughable. I'm  sure I posted a lengthy list before.


----------



## rederob (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Oh well here is the thoughts of two of the presenters of *Media Watch, *so maybe take it up with them I can't be bothered with your nonsense.



I said *Media Watch *presented media analysis rather than facts, so I have no idea what you watch that is actually *fact checking* as you earlier stated.
You then offered two print media articles that give modelling outcomes against different vaccination rates.
What's your point?
Models use real world data (aka "facts") about covid to derive *likely *consequences.
It is proven that vaccinations reduce illness, hospitalisation and death rates.
It is proven that mitigation measures reduce spread and can lead to local level elimination of covid.
What facts are "*subjective*" as you earlier claimed?


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The fact checkers I have watched, depend a lot on the reporters leaning, whether they see the facts as (half true or mostly true) or (half false or mostly false).
> It is very subjective in the shows I have seen, it would also depend on who selects the subject matter, or if the subject matter is decided by independent parties.
> *A fact checking show on the ABC, will be completely different from a fact checking show on a News Corp programme, even if it is fact checking the same subject.*
> That is why I take most of it with a grain of salt.



AS I have already said when Andrew Bolt or the 7.30 report or indeed media watch Q & A present a show, they refer to "facts" to support the position they are taking constantly.
If you are so prescriptive a person, that you can't accept that when say Andrew Bolt discredits the facts presented by an ABC presenter, he is fact checking their content as presented.
Then obviously unless the words fact check are inserted into the programme name, you wont see it as a case of fact checking, there is probably a name for that disorder.
Obsessive and pedantic springs to mind. 🤣

The above article I posted, is so we can return at a later date and fact check, the experts subjective analysis of their interpretation of the data. As presented by the media to obviously cause concern, despair, fear and angst against the Government.
It will be interesting to review the article and compare the actual outcomes with the presentation of likely outcomes based on "facts", by said experts.


----------



## rederob (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> AS I have already said when Andrew Bolt or the 7.30 report or indeed media watch Q & A present a show, they refer to "facts" to support the position they are taking constantly.
> If you are so prescriptive a person, that you can't accept that when say Andrew Bolt discredits the facts presented by an ABC presenter, he is fact checking their content as presented.
> Then obviously unless the words fact check are inserted into the programme name, you wont see it as a case of fact checking, there is probably a name for that disorder.
> Obsessive and pedantic springs to mind. 🤣



Bolt's program has nothing to do with fact *checking*!
You keep confusing opinion pieces with facts.
You made claims about fact checking being *subjective.
Where is an example?*


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

Jeez you are hard work, but most know that already.
O.K to keep it on thread, in regard covid vaccination, the "facts" were presented as the low vaccination rate was due to lack of vaccine, then as was proven when the supply was available, the "fact" was hesitancy was the main issue, not supply. We were producing AZ from the very early stages in Melbourne, but the media only presented the "fact" mRNA couldn't be sourced..
All the facts weren't presented by the media, only the fact that mRNA supply was an issue, there were many other "facts" available e.g AZ was available and people were hesitant to have it.
Even now when mRNA vaccine has been available for months, there are a large proportion of front line health worker who wont have it, causing the issue of mandatory vaccinations to be introduced.
You saying Bolts programme has nothing to do with "facts", is your opinion, there are a lot of people who no doubt think what he says is based on "facts", which is what I've being saying since the beginning the media is rubbish.
Your confusing a debate on the presentation of "facts" by the media, as a debate on the application of the English language, best you have that with the media IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

Wow from one of the Worlds slowest vaccination rates, to one of the Worlds fastest vaccination rates, shows what a dose of reality and fear can do. Yeh go Scomo. 🤣 








						NSW COVID-19 vaccination rate now among world's fastest
					

An ABC analysis shows NSW's COVID-19 vaccination rate has surged to rank among the fastest in the world, based on data from the past seven days.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez you are hard work, but most know that already.
> O.K to keep it on thread, in regard covid vaccination, the "facts" were presented as the low vaccination rate was due to lack of vaccine, then as was proven when the supply was available, the "fact" was hesitancy was the main issue, not supply.
> All the facts weren't presented by the media, only the fact that mRNA supply was an issue, there were many other "facts" available e.g AZ was available and people were hesitant to have it.
> Even now when mRNA vaccine has been available for months, there are a large proportion of front line health worker who wont have it, causing the issue of mandatory vaccinations to be introduced.



I might be hard work to you, but if you claim that facts are subjective - and you did - where are examples?
As it is the case that facts in logic are objective, so then a subjective fact would be an oxymoron.
Several posters on vaccine efficacy in this thread present consistently debunked, false and misleading information.
I and others have countered this with explanations and links to information showing their posts lack merit, and I personally regard such contributions as dangers to health if believed.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

rederob said:


> I might be hard work to you, *but if you claim that facts are subjective - and you did* - where are examples?
> As it is the case that facts in logic are objective, so then a subjective fact would be an oxymoron.
> Several posters on vaccine efficacy in this thread present consistently debunked, false and misleading information.
> I and others have countered this with explanations and links to information showing their posts lack merit, and I personally regard such contributions as dangers to health if believed.



I said facts as presented are subjective, due to the ability of the presenter to include or omit the facts, which don't agree with their opinion or can dilute the intended message .

That's a fact. 🤣


----------



## rederob (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Wow from one of the Worlds slowest vaccination rates, to one of the Worlds fastest vaccination rates, shows what a dose of reality and fear can do. Yeh go Scomo. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Scomo has been the problem, and the States have been the solution.





In Queensland the feds still control 70% of vaccine distribution.
Given the immediate success States have had in improving rates you might have thought the feds would have learned something by now, given we are almost 10 million doses below original target.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

How many deaths have we had? In short it is only those who are trying to gain political mileage that care, most who wanted a vaccination received one, as hesitancy was a major issue. That probably saved the Governments ar$e. 🤣


----------



## rederob (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> How many deaths have we had?



The proper metric is case fatality rate and we have had about 2 deaths from each 100 cases.


sptrawler said:


> In short it is only those who are trying to gain political mileage that care,



Your opinion, versus the fact that I care.


sptrawler said:


> most who wanted a vaccination received one,



Untrue, as I know 8 people who are still being advised that October is the earliest they will receive their vaccination, and that's just through everyday conversations.


sptrawler said:


> That probably saved the Governments ar$e. 🤣



What you really mean is Scomo's incompetence has cost lives.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> We are staring to see the media "facts" coming out as we speak.
> *This is the media's "facts", lets see what happens? Are these "facts" or just what the way this media wants to present as the "facts".*
> If indeed they are the facts, when will it ever be possible to return to normal?
> What are they basing the "facts" on, apart from ANU experts, which in itself must mean it is absolutely accurate, because they always give the "facts".
> ...






rederob said:


> I said *Media Watch *presented media analysis rather than facts, so I have no idea what you watch that is actually *fact checking* as you earlier stated.
> *You then offered two print media articles that give modelling outcomes against different vaccination rates.
> What's your point?
> Models use real world data (aka "facts") about covid to derive likely consequences*.
> ...



My point is as I said, the media is presenting "expert" data as "facts", when they are omitting where the data is derived from, is the data derived from overseas information, if so which country? Is their climate the same as ours? As that effects likely outcomes.
Is the general health of the population, where the data is obtained, from similar to ours?
There are a multitude of reference points that need to be compared to ours to derive likely consequences.
Will 70% and 80% vaccination rates be achieved before summer, or mid winter, that will have a bearing, on the "facts".
Or is the article a worst possible scenario? Derived by Professor Grafton, a professor of economics?









						Quentin Grafton
					






					researchprofiles.anu.edu.au
				




But let's be honest, don't let the truth get in the way of media "facts", or a good story. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

rederob said:


> The proper metric is case fatality rate and we have had about 2 deaths from each 100 cases.



So that is how many deaths?


rederob said:


> Your opinion, versus the fact that I care.



No need to get sulky


rederob said:


> Untrue, as I know 8 people who are still being advised that October is the earliest they will receive their vaccination, and that's just through everyday conversations.



Why were they so hesitant and only applied recently?


rederob said:


> What you really mean is Scomo's incompetence has cost lives.



Your opinion, many are still trying to get back to Australia and many have come to Australia, to ride out the virus, due to our excellent record.
The election is soon, it will show one way or another, it is of note that the "Australian" has had a 50% increase in circulation, maybe the ex Fairfax boys aren't getting the traction they think?


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

rederob said:


> What you really mean is Scomo's incompetence has cost lives.



Just to clear that up for you. 😂
As I said earlier the media will decide the election, as people are zoning out from the constant "white noise".









						Coalition gains on pandemic management as Morrison holds ground, Labor vote falls
					

Latest data from the Resolve Political Monitor shows the Coalition’s primary vote back to the level that won it the 2019 election.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Voters have swung to the Coalition and backed Prime Minister Scott Morrison on key personal measures, lifting the government’s primary vote from 38 to 40 per cent amid a debate about when to end lockdowns.

The government has gained ground among voters on its response to the pandemic and management of the economy, while Labor has seen its primary vote fall from 35 to 32 per cent.
The findings are part of a new survey that shows 46 per cent of voters prefer Mr Morrison as Prime Minister compared to 23 per cent who favour Labor leader Anthony Albanese, with another 31 per cent undecided and the results barely changed over the past month.
*The Resolve Political Monitor, conducted for The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age by research company Resolve Strategic*, finds the Coalition has recovered some support from voters on policy issues as the same time it increased its primary vote.

“This extends the Coalition’s primary vote lead to the highest in our 2021 tracking so far and equal to the 2019 election lead,” said Resolve director Jim Reed.
Support for the Greens was steady at 12 per cent while support for independent candidates rose from 7 to 10 per cent and Pauline Hanson’s One Nation fell from 4 to 2 per cent.


----------



## Knobby22 (24 August 2021)

Analyst Casey Briggs has had a fascinating discussion with the ABC that's worth watching. Sorry, no way to link but look under https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08...-conference-nsw-victoria-queensland/100400652 and scroll down.

If NSW gets to 50% vaccination in the western suburbs then, with the lockdown measures, we should see a downturn and thanks to the residents they are getting there quickly. Good on them. Today was looking better.

Also of interest in the interview was the States that doing well, Tazzy and Canberra. NSW is catching up. Victoria now lagging. SA next, Queensland next and WA by far the lowest as everyone is pretty safe there at present.

I am really with the Prime Minister that we open up completely at 80% and partially open at 70% vaccination.
I understand QLD and WA state Premiers being cautious due to the levels in NSW and keeping the border up and maybe they have a point, particularly if they are lagging in the vaccination rates.

Maybe at 70% we can have a relaxed lockdown where there are certain rules to prevent the spread, such as theatres open to the vaccinated.
At 80% it should be no rules whatsoever. I think it can be seen from the UK experience that once you have substantial vaccination, especially of the older population, then deaths become much less of an issue and are generally among the older (60+)anti-vaxers who in the main are for opening up anyway and seeing how it goes. About 1/3 of 20-30 year olds remain unvaccinated in the UK. Vaccination rates in older age groups are very high befitting the risk.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

Those early up takers, can get into some really new tech.




__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				



From the article:
A world-first trial on a possible “next-generation” Covid-19 vaccine will soon begin in Queensland, with scientists hoping they will be able to provide better protection against the virus.
The University of Sunshine Coast clinical trials of the virus-like particle vaccine produced by American company Icosavax will be the first in the world.

If effective, this type of vaccine could be used to treat new coronavirus strains as they emerge.
Unlike the vaccines used in Australia at the moment, this potential new type of vaccine contains no genetic material; rather the virus-like particles display multiple copies of the protective antigens in a manner that closely resembles the virus.
The study aims to assess the safety and ability of the VLP vaccine to generate good immune response in two groups – the first group who have never had Covid-19 nor received a Covid-19 vaccine, while the second group will be made up of participants who have been fully vaccinated.

The study, to be conducted at Sippy Downs and Morayfield locations, requires healthy participants aged between 18 and 69.


----------



## rederob (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> My point is as I said, the media is presenting "expert" data as "facts", when they are omitting where the data is derived from, is the data derived from overseas information, if so which country?



Expert data are facts - so it really does not matter who presents them.
I have no idea what else you mean because you have been consistently confused about opinions and facts,


sptrawler said:


> But let's be honest, don't let the truth get in the way of media "facts", or a good story.



Facts are always facts, and you just can't work that out


sptrawler said:


> Why were they so hesitant and only applied recently?



They applied in May and June and I know a few checked last week to see if there was any change.


sptrawler said:


> Your opinion, many are still trying to get back to Australia and many have come to Australia, to ride out the virus, due to our excellent record.



Given that Scomo has botched covid quarantine responsibilities - the view of many State Premiers - and failed to achieve stated rollout targets, it's most likely hospitalisations and deaths would be lower had a more competent person been in charge.   From the outset in 2020 there was a massive spat between the feds and NSW government followed by an inquiry into the release of cruise line passengers at Sydney who were suffering covid. 
Aged Care, which has always been a federal responsibility, contributes most deaths to date.
Scomo's track record with State Premiers has been a remarkable failure: yes, it's my opinion but widely shared:
"The vaccination rollout had a 57-40 dissatisfied rating (50-46 satisfied in late June, 53-43 satisfied in April)."


----------



## moXJO (24 August 2021)

Pfizer passed fda approval.
It has been rigorously tested and short term effects are now known.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

It is good to see Bill Shorten is supporting Morrisons call, on the 80% target, despite the expert suggesting 100' s of thousands will die.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Expert data are facts - so it really does not matter who presents them.
> I have no idea what else you mean because you have been consistently confused about opinions and facts,



Well that's it then, somewhere between 25,000 and 30,000 deaths coming up, according to the economist's facts.



rederob said:


> Facts are always facts, and you just can't work that out



I never said facts weren't facts, I said facts are included or omitted, to suit the presenters agenda.


rederob said:


> They applied in May and June and I know a few checked last week to see if there was any change.



Well my wife and I applied in July, at our local suburban doctors and received the vaccine a few days later. Obviously you now people who have difficulties. I can only go off personal experience, only one of my four children have had the vaccine, but that is due to personal choice.


rederob said:


> Given that Scomo has botched covid quarantine responsibilities - the view of many State Premiers - and failed to achieve stated rollout targets, it's most likely hospitalisations and deaths would be lower had a more competent person been in charge.   From the outset in 2020 there was a massive spat between the feds and NSW government followed by an inquiry into the release of cruise line passengers at Sydney who were suffering covid.
> Aged Care, which has always been a federal responsibility, contributes most deaths to date.
> Scomo's track record with State Premiers has been a remarkable failure: yes, it's my opinion but widely shared:
> "The vaccination rollout had a 57-40 dissatisfied rating (50-46 satisfied in late June, 53-43 satisfied in April)."



Well going by the "facts" as you see them, the death toll is going to spiral out of control soon.


----------



## IFocus (24 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Analyst Casey Briggs has had a fascinating discussion with the ABC that's worth watching. Sorry, no way to link but look under https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08...-conference-nsw-victoria-queensland/100400652 and scroll down.
> 
> If NSW gets to 50% vaccination in the western suburbs then, with the lockdown measures, we should see a downturn and thanks to the residents they are getting there quickly. Good on them. Today was looking better.
> 
> ...





Morrison is to a degree quoting dogma and being selective with the modelling in the end the state premiers will wear the COVID train should it all go pear shape as in the current situation in NSW. 

It will I suspect just come down to the hospitalization rates and I am not sure they have a real handle on what that looks like once you let COVID run through the population.

What will the variant be at the time, speed of infections through the population, what age groups remain un vaccinated, will it damage children more so (new variant s )what the numbers are for long COVID.

Resections will remain what they are who knows?


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Morrison is to a degree quoting dogma and being selective with the modelling in the end the state premiers will wear the COVID train should it all go pear shape as in the current situation in NSW.
> 
> It will I suspect just come down to the hospitalization rates and I am not sure they have a real handle on what that looks like once you let COVID run through the population.
> 
> ...



They could very well reverse the decision, if as you say another strain eventuates or numbers sky rocket, as McGowan says the States will have the final say.
Morrison is just worried about the monetary support, that the Feds have to stump up, when the States close down.
I don't think anything will be set in stone, the amount of money that has been thrown at this, would make it silly to undo it all now.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The Prime Minister’s plan to reopen the country at a 70-80 per cent vaccination rate and treat the Delta variant “like the flu” has been slammed as dangerous and reckless by some of the nation’s top health and economic researchers.
> According to modelling from the Australian National University, if Scott Morrison’s current coronavirus plan proceeds, tens of thousands Australians will likely die and hundreds of thousands will likely develop cases of long Covid.
> 
> “We found substantial morbidity and mortality is likely to occur if the Australian government sticks to the national plan,” ANU economics professor and study co-author Quentin Grafton said.
> ...




Well fortunately for us, in another paper, on the same day,  we have a group of different experts saying the "facts" support the 80% position.
Is there any wonder people are confused, there are more experts than you can poke a stick at, saying opposite things.
So many "facts", so much data, it does your head in.🤣









						‘Living with COVID’ could end up two very different ways
					

When we try to imagine what “living with COVID” will look like, we need to realise that there are two very different “living with COVID” worlds.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
A recent Grattan Institute report showed that, with more than 80 per cent of the whole population vaccinated, we could open up our borders and live with COVID without lockdowns.
(_Grattan modelling shows that once 80 per cent of the population is vaccinated – and 95 per cent of the most vulnerable, including the over-70s – Australia can safety begin to ‘live with COVID’.

At 80 per cent, COVID would be in the community but severe cases would be rare_.)

Living in this world would essentially involve a return to a pre-COVID life – stranded Australians could return, state borders would always be open, and vaccinated tourists and international students would be able to fly into Australia without quarantine.

In this world, even if the virus spread into the population, it would peter out naturally. The virus would still infect people, but the vaccine would protect them from hospitalisation and death.
This is a world of living with COVID safely.


----------



## IFocus (24 August 2021)

Norman Swan went through the numbers today, 80% vaccination rate that they are talking about isn't the whole population, its more like 60% (I think he said) leaving 40% unvaccinated (kids etc).

Given 50% infection rate among the vaccinated (Delta) but low hospitalisation rates however still infections' and passing it on that leaves unvaccinated totally exposed to disease.

I think this is where the argument starts as to what happens then?


----------



## moXJO (24 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Norman Swan went through the numbers today, 80% vaccination rate that they are talking about isn't the whole population, its more like 60% (I think he said) leaving 40% unvaccinated (kids etc).
> 
> Given 50% infection rate among the vaccinated (Delta) but low hospitalisation rates however still infections' and passing it on that leaves unvaccinated totally exposed to disease.
> 
> I think this is where the argument starts as to what happens then?



Kids have very low rates of hospitalisation and lower rates of death.  Not sure they need a jab at this stage.


----------



## Knobby22 (24 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Norman Swan went through the numbers today, 80% vaccination rate that they are talking about isn't the whole population, its more like 60% (I think he said) leaving 40% unvaccinated (kids etc).
> 
> Given 50% infection rate among the vaccinated (Delta) but low hospitalisation rates however still infections' and passing it on that leaves unvaccinated totally exposed to disease.
> 
> I think this is where the argument starts as to what happens then?



Yes, I think the plan at present is not to immunise (or count) below 15 years old at present. 
Truth is all we can achieve is offering some protection to those who want it and let the virus become endemic. We have to strike a balance. I think we need to see more information about who is getting sick.

At least we can take heart with what has happened in the UK.  I would like to see a 90% rate for those over 30 and maybe 75% for those between 15 and 30 before we opened up. Even kids though are getting quite sick now. Some are in hospital so if we get this wrong we will be overwhelmed.

We even have an infant in hospital in Victoria.









						Infant among COVID-19 cases hospitalised in Melbourne
					

Victorian health authorities have revealed almost one fifth of the active coronavirus cases in the state are aged under 10 and a baby is among the COVID-19 patients receiving care in hospital.




					www.skynews.com.au


----------



## rederob (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well fortunately for us, in another paper, on the same day,  we have a group of different experts saying the "facts" support the 80% position.
> Is there any wonder people are confused, there are more experts than you can poke a stick at, saying opposite things.
> So many "facts", so much data, it does your head in.🤣
> 
> ...



Models are not facts!
However, they are consistent with everything we know about herd immunity and have been reworked to account for targeted rollout strategies, treatment regimes (hospital capacity), infection rates (variants) and death rates.
The real world has examples of what's possible.
China controlled the virus after the initial outbreak and, through mass testing any outbreaks plus extensive use of technology, has been largely covid free since.  China's vaccination rate was modest until April 2021 before ramping up.
England fluffed initial mitigation but through its NHS managed by Sir Simon Stevens put in place an exemplary vaccination strategy which was also aided by low hesitancy.  And, like Israel which ran an early vaccination race, these nations have been returning to the new normal.
Australia is a bit like China except over 4 months behind.




Note that the above percentages are based on total population, so actually understate the share of those who are eligible for vaccination.
BTW, we could holiday in the Seychelles if our government let us travel.  So parts of the world that got in early with vaccines are now reaping the benefits.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> *And the only way to ensure that the population moves in the right direction health wise would be to implement draconian measures to push them to be healthier. Perhaps banning fast foods, forcing participation in sports in schools, banning cigarettes completely and  increasing the cost of alcohol so that it becomes prohibitively expensive.*
> 
> Could you imagine the outcry from people of your ilk who call forced mask wearing in certain locations a form of tyranny.




Sugar and fat taxes ?

I wouldn't call that 'draconian' , people still have a choice, only they pay more for bad choices.


----------



## IFocus (24 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, I think the plan at present is not to immunise (or count) below 15 years old at present.
> Truth is all we can achieve is offering some protection to those who want it and let the virus become endemic. We have to strike a balance. I think we need to see more information about who is getting sick.
> 
> At least we can take heart with what has happened in the UK.  I would like to see a 90% rate for those over 30 and maybe 75% for those between 15 and 30 before we opened up. Even kids though are getting quite sick now. Some are in hospital so if we get this wrong we will be overwhelmed.
> ...





It is going to be a difficult time for politicians all round, Federal Government wanting to stop the out going cash flow (lucky they passed those tax cuts) international boarder openings (when) and will the new quarantine facilities be big enough (no where near) and an election looming.

State Premiers, NT/ACT Ministers,  (this is where dead bodies hit the morgue) have to managed over taxed hospitals already in over flow and explain the new normal is restrictions and masks for ever.  

Note in the US it looking like millions may not work again due to long COVID.

All this and I know some one who stills says its just the flu and a massive power grab to tell us all what to do?


----------



## Knobby22 (25 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> It is going to be a difficult time for politicians all round, Federal Government wanting to stop the out going cash flow (lucky they passed those tax cuts) international boarder openings (when) and will the new quarantine facilities be big enough (no where near) and an election looming.
> 
> State Premiers, NT/ACT Ministers,  (this is where dead bodies hit the morgue) have to managed over taxed hospitals already in over flow and explain the new normal is restrictions and masks for ever.
> 
> ...




I am with you 
It isn't going to be easy for any politician.

It is upsetting that some people are so gullible, so easily led and willing to believe in nonsense.

Some will be led, like the sheep they are, to their death or suffer long covid for the rest of their lifetimes.

I take heart that 87% of Australians support lockdowns as  the only realistic response to the pandemic.

Most people have good critical faculties. 

I am tired of the lockdowns in Melbourne and my youngest is in his final year of school has missed much in sport, socials etc. 
Can't wait to get through this.


----------



## rederob (25 August 2021)

To help @sptrawler understand what modelling is about, I thought this might help.
First, Doherty Modelling is the basis as it has been endorsed by National Cabinet.
It's a 4 phase plan:




The modelling is based on specified assumptions and a wide range of scenarios, all having independent margins of error. 
Key to it is the starting point (onset), which is zero infections at day one, and a nominated percentage of the eligible population being vaccinated at that date, with vaccinations continuing thereafter in order to increase the population share.
Below are some charts that map out possible death outcomes:




It's impossible to derive a most probable number of deaths from this modelling as there are too many variables.  The most important of these is that we simply do not know how many will die *before* onset against any of the scenarios.
What the modelling makes clear is that without the mitigation strategies presently in place (particularly lockdowns) Delta has the potential wreak havoc.


----------



## IFocus (25 August 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I am tired of the lockdowns in Melbourne and my youngest is in his final year of school has missed much in sport, socials etc.
> Can't wait to get through this.




Over 200 hundred days of lock down and counting... cannot image how hard that is for the highly social Melbourianins, Malborne is far and away my favorited Australian city to hang out in, place just hums.

Hoping the young bloke goes OK at least he's not alone, must hard to keep him focused on the future.


----------



## sptrawler (25 August 2021)

rederob said:


> To help @sptrawler understand what modelling is about,
> *It's impossible to derive a most probable number of deaths from this modelling as there are too many variables*.  The most important of these is that we simply do not know how many will die *before* onset against any of the scenarios.
> What the modelling makes clear is that without the mitigation strategies presently in place (particularly lockdowns) Delta has the potential wreak havoc.



Which is what I alluded to in #998 below. When I was explaining why the article which predicted numbers of deaths, was just sensationalism by the media.  An extract below.

*If Australia reopens with 70 per cent of Australians aged over 16 fully vaccinated, there could eventually be 6.9 million cases of Covid-19, 154,000 hospitalisations, and 29,000 fatalities, Professor Grafton said.*

“We simply can’t afford to do that, both in terms of lives and long-term illness from Covid,” he said.
And even if the PM waits until 80 per cent of the adult population are vaccinated to open up, thousands of lives will still be destroyed, according to the modelling.

*“Assuming 80 per cent vaccination coverage for only those over 16, as per the national plan, there could be approximately 25,000 fatalities and some 270,000 cases of long Covid,” Professor Grafton said.*

To which I replied*"*


sptrawler said:


> My point is as I said, the media is presenting "expert" data as "facts", when they are omitting where the data is derived from, is the data derived from overseas information, if so which country? Is their climate the same as ours? As that effects likely outcomes.
> Is the general health of the population, where the data is obtained, from similar to ours?
> *There are a multitude of reference points that need to be compared to ours to derive likely consequences.*
> Will 70% and 80% vaccination rates be achieved before summer, or mid winter, that will have a bearing, on the "facts".
> ...



At last you agree.  I knew you would finally come round.
Modelling is based on assumptions derived from available data aka facts, as you said.
Quote:
Models use real world data (aka "facts") about covid to derive *likely *consequences.


----------



## wayneL (25 August 2021)

FYI


----------



## rederob (25 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> FYI




@wayneL's linked paper had zero relationship to ADE.
Relying on twitter for medical advice is a bit like visiting a farrier for a filling.


----------



## moXJO (25 August 2021)

https://www.researchgate.net/public...mediated_by_antibodies_against_spike_proteins


Was it meant to be based around this?


----------



## grah33 (25 August 2021)

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here we go! Get ready. <a href="https://t.co/wJRDVUTelK">https://t.co/wJRDVUTelK</a></p>&mdash; Robert W Malone, MD (@RWMaloneMD) <a href="">August 24, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Pfizer CEO says this because the science suggests that this is so. The problem with this untested strategy is that there is the potential to keep driving the virus to a more pathogenic and infectious state. <a href="https://t.co/JUj4VT1wMb">https://t.co/JUj4VT1wMb</a></p>&mdash; Robert W Malone, MD (@RWMaloneMD) <a href="">August 25, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Dr. Walensky let the Israel cat out of the bag:<br><br>&quot;reports from Israel suggest INCREASED RISK OF SEVERE DISEASE amongst those vaccinated early&quot;.<br><br>So wait... despite all the rhetoric about reduced severity/hospitalization, Israel data suggests otherwise?? <a href="https://t.co/JDSUjvXL76">pic.twitter.com/JDSUjvXL76</a></p>&mdash; Who? What? When? Where? (@Jimmy_Jeans) <a href="">August 23, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Antibody dependent enhancement though vaccine (worth consideration).  Virus can become more infectious.  Might be happening now in Sydney, then elsewhere.


----------



## rederob (26 August 2021)

grah33 said:


> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here we go! Get ready. <a href="https://t.co/wJRDVUTelK">https://t.co/wJRDVUTelK</a></p>&mdash; Robert W Malone, MD (@RWMaloneMD) <a href="">August 24, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Antivaxxers have no boundaries.
Robert Malone, MD. is a posterboy of pseudoscience renown for making and promoting dubious claims about covid.
Pseudoscience mixes a few scientific facts with totally discredited or non-existent claims to give a semblance of authority to gullible readers.
It's a fact that we do not know the long term effects of any covid vaccines, due to the very fact they have not been around long enough. 
The possibility that there are other side effects to those we already know about is exceptionally low given the billions of vaccinations that have been given subsequent to trials taking place over a year ago. 
@grah33's tweet about Pfizer CEO Albert Burla is misleading in that Burla says that Pfizer can develop a vaccine against any breakthrough variant within 95 days, as that's how good the mRNA platform is.
@grah33's last point confuses ADE with natural mutation, a ploy consistent with everything the antivaxxers do.


----------



## IFocus (26 August 2021)

Robert Malone has had COVID, now has long COVID and has had the Moderna vaccine all the while being bitter due to his being left out of recognition of who developed the mRNA research.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 August 2021)

Another 30 something has died at home in NSW today. (Second unvaccinated 30 year old to die at home)

Just a warning -if you are getting pretty sick, go to hospital, get oxygen. No point dying for no good reason. I am pretty sure those 30 somethings would have pulled through with proper treatment. This virus is nasty.


----------



## basilio (26 August 2021)

Saw this under comments on Fox news regarding the Pfizer vaccine. 
Thought provoking. IMO

20 Things I learned from the Pandemic 
1. Most people would rather be in the majority, than be right.

 2. At least 20% of the population has strong authoritarian tendencies, which will emerge under the right conditions. 

3. Fear of death is only rivalled by the fear of social disapproval. The latter could be stronger. 

4. Propaganda is just as effective in the modern day as it was 100 years ago. Access to limitless information has not made the average person any wiser. 

5. Anything and everything can and will be politicised by the media, government, and those who trust them. 

6. Many politicians and large corporations will gladly sacrifice human lives if it is conducive to their political and financial aspirations. 

7. Most people believe the government acts in the best interests of the people. Even many who are vocal critics of the government. 

8. Once they have made up their mind, most people would rather to commit to being wrong, than admit they were wrong. 

9. Humans can be trained and conditioned quickly and relatively easily to significantly alter their behaviours - for better or worse. 

10. When sufficiently frightened, most people will not only accept authoritarianism, but demand it. 

11. People who are dismissed as 'conspiracy theorists' are often well researched and simply ahead of the mainstream narrative. 

12. Most people value safety and security more than freedom and liberty, even if said 'safety' is merely an illusion. 

13. Hedonic adaptation occurs in both directions, and once inertia sets in, it is difficult to get people back to 'normal'.

14. A significant % of people thoroughly enjoy being subjugated. 

15. 'The Science' has evolved into a secular pseudo-religion for millions of people in the West. This religion has little to do with science itself.

16. Most people care more about looking like they are doing the right thing, rather than actually doing the right thing. 

17. Politics, the media, science, and the healthcare industries are all corrupt, to varying degrees. Scientists and doctors can be bought as easily as politicians. 

18. If you make people comfortable enough, they will not revolt. You can keep millions docile as you strip their rights, by giving them money, food, and entertainment. 

19. Modern people are overly complacent and lack vigilance when it comes to defending their own freedoms from government overreach.

20. It's easier to fool a person than to convince them that they have been fooled.


----------



## basilio (26 August 2021)

*    ‘Vaccine’ Spells ‘Satan’ When You Rearrange All The Letters And Replace Them With New Ones, Conspiracy Theorist Says  
* 





The evidence that vaccines are the work of the devil is right there in front of your eyes, an anti-vaxxer says, pointing out that the word ‘vaccine’ actually spells ‘Satan’ when you swap the ‘V’, ‘C’, ‘C’, ‘I’ and ‘E’ for an ‘S’, ‘T’ and ‘A’.

“Like everything in life, the truth is hiding in plain sight, but only if you’re prepared to look for it,” self-educated free thinker Ralph Degraves says.                                                                                  

“Replace the ‘V’ with an ‘S’, keep the ‘A’ right where it is, swap the two ‘Cs’ for a ‘T’, and the ‘I’ for an ‘A’. You don’t even have to move the ‘N’. And what do you get? ‘S. A. T. A. N. E’. Oh yeah, you have to remove that last ‘E’. What do you get? ‘SATAN’. Coincidence? I think not”.

He said once you started opening your eyes, the truth was everywhere. “You don’t believe Bill Gates is spreading COVID through 5G? It’s right there in front of you. His first initial ‘B’ is the second letter of the alphabet; Gates has three children. Two plus three equals five. ‘G’, obviously, stands for ‘Gates’. 5G: Bill Gates. Check mate”.









						‘Vaccine’ Spells ‘Satan’ When You Rearrange All The Letters And Replace Them With New Ones, Conspiracy Theorist Says
					

"Wake up! The truth is right in front of you"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## wayneL (26 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Saw this under comments on Fox news regarding the Pfizer vaccine.
> Thought provoking. IMO
> 
> 20 Things I learned from the Pandemic
> ...



FYI that was written by @Zubymusic. 

Smart guy, lives in the UK and is vehemently against lockdowns and Vax passports.


----------



## basilio (26 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> FYI that was written by @Zubymusic.
> 
> Smart guy, lives in the UK and is vehemently against lockdowns and Vax passports.




Sure.  That was  pretty clear.  

So ?  I thought he made a number of interesting points.  Didn't necessarily agree with them all. But in my mind he is certainly astute.


----------



## grah33 (26 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Antivaxxers have no boundaries.
> Robert Malone, MD. is a posterboy of pseudoscience renown for making and promoting dubious claims about covid.
> Pseudoscience mixes a few scientific facts with totally discredited or non-existent claims to give a semblance of authority to gullible readers.
> It's a fact that we do not know the long term effects of any covid vaccines, due to the very fact they have not been around long enough.
> ...



hmm ... indeed it might be misleading (tweet about Phizer CEO)


----------



## wayneL (26 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Sure.  That was  pretty clear.
> 
> So ?  I thought he made a number of interesting points.  Didn't necessarily agree with them all. But in my mind he is certainly astute.



Fair enough.

He is one of my favourite tw@tter accounts BTW... a very wise young man IMO, and that is a very good list for sure.


----------



## grah33 (27 August 2021)

basilio said:


> *    ‘Vaccine’ Spells ‘Satan’ When You Rearrange All The Letters And Replace Them With New Ones, Conspiracy Theorist Says
> *
> View attachment 129461
> 
> ...



his analyses might be far fetched, but the times sure do  resemble the Bible's prophecies.  like never before


----------



## grah33 (27 August 2021)

Regards ADE, we just don't know.  Some of the pros say it's probable, while others disagree.  But either way, with such data the vaccines don't seem to be passably working.


----------



## rederob (2 September 2021)

Despite the good turnouts in NSW, Australia as a whole remains a long way behind in the "not a race" to be vaccinated:


----------



## Belli (2 September 2021)

Oops.  Hope the fella fully recovers.



> NSW health authorities have issued a warning after a COVID-positive person turned up at a Western Sydney hospital ill after overdosing on an anti-parasitic medication and other supposed COVID-19 "cures" ordered online.
> 
> Western Sydney Local Health District said a person with COVID-19 presented to Westmead Hospital's emergency department vomiting and with diarrhoea.
> 
> The symptoms weren't as a result of the virus, but from an overdose of the drug Ivermectin and other medications sold online as "COVID cures".






> He said others had also turned up at the hospital recently needing treatment after taking a range of dangerous substances to treat COVID-19 including disinfectants, bleach and alcohols.












						Live: NSW Now: Nine fined for illegal gathering in Sydney's east, COVID patient overdoses on Ivermectin
					

MORNING BRIEFING: Police fear an illegal gathering at Malabar Headland could have resulted in COVID transmission and may be linked to a previous superspreading event in nearby Maroubra.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2021)

Vive la résistance





__





						Vaccine passports will make hesitant people ‘even more reluctant to get jabbed’
					

Imposing vaccine passports is likely to make hesitant people even more reluctant to get Covid jabs, research involving more than 16,000 people has found as Downing Street vowed to press ahead with the plan within a month.



					ground.news


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2021)

rederob said:


> Despite the good turnouts in NSW, Australia as a whole remains a long way behind in the "not a race" to be vaccinated:
> View attachment 129750



At least now, we have stopped pouring vaccine down the toilet, or giving it away because it was due to expire. The Delta outbreak in NSW and Vic has changed hesitancy into a stampede.
By the way, did you happen to notice how your chart has been skewed, the first half of the time base is 6 months, the second half is 3 months, how about putting up the same chart from June to August.
We used to call the graph you put up, a distorted graph, to reflect the look the author wants to achieve, what you posted shows a long slow uptake, when in actual fact we now have a very high per capita uptake.
Looking at the trajectory of the trend, we will soon overtake Europe and the U.S, who have flatlined considerably.
Let's be honest, NSW is now nearly at 70% first vaccination, which is a massive change from two months ago and as they are quite a large population base, it will have a dramatic effect on the graph.
Maybe on Oct 1, you could post the same graph, but starting from July1, rather than from January 1.


----------



## rederob (3 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> By the way, did you happen to notice how your chart has been skewed, the first half of the time base is 6 months, the second half is 3 months, how about putting up the same chart from June to August.
> We used to call the graph you put up, a distorted graph, to reflect the look the author wants to achieve, what you posted shows a long slow uptake, when in actual fact we now have a very high per capita uptake.



The chart is actually to scale and shows that we only passed the *world's* average dose number in mid August.
We are well behind most western nations, although could catch the USA in 4-5 weeks at respective jab rates, as America seems to have lost the plot.
If in 2022 Australia start to open to outbound international travel then large slabs of Europe, a fair bit of the Middle East, Canada, Singapore and China are so far looking likely candidates.  However, it would be good to know if we could agree on something like a vaccine passport that allowed us to return without having to foot an additional bill for hotel quarantine.  In that regard, National Cabinet meetings have been a dogs breakfast.


----------



## basilio (3 September 2021)

It's only  a little lame. Should be back in full flight any time soon...
....................................................................................................................
*Joe Rogan Back To Full Health   




*
Saying his mane had never looked glossier, podcaster Joe Rogan has told his listeners he’s made a full recovery from COVID-19, after taking a range of drugs, including ivermectin.

“I’ve been out for a run on the track this morning, put the saddle back on for the first time in a week. No worms, everything feels great,” he said.                                                                                

“A lot of people have been saying my podcasting days were over, that I should be put out to pasture. But I never listen to the haters. I’ve always been a chaff-bag-half-full kinda guy”.

He said the only remaining ailment was a sore throat. “It’s fair to say I’m a little horse”.








						Joe Rogan Back To Full Health
					

‘Neigh!’




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## noirua (8 September 2021)

How many double-jabbed people are dying from Covid?
					

The higher number of fully vaccinated people dying reflects the large majority of people in England who have now been jabbed.




					www.aol.co.uk


----------



## basilio (8 September 2021)

This story sums up why  the stories spread by the anti vaxxer groups should be treated with great care.

A Virologist gave an interview and then found his words had been re edited to completely misrepresent what he said.
And these messages were pumped out to millions of people under his name and status.

As a virologist I’m shocked my work has been hijacked by anti-vaxxers​David LV Bauer


A news interview I did was re-edited and misquoted by online conspiracy theorists. My advice is: get the vaccine

David LV Bauer is head of the RNA virus replication laboratory at the Francis Crick Institute in London






‘The videos seemed to be mutating and spreading, with new, more virulent variants catching on online.’ Photograph: Alamy Stock Photo
Tue 7 Sep 2021 09.00 BST
Last modified on Wed 8 Sep 2021 04.20 BST


As a virologist, I’ve spent the past year or more studying the novel coronavirus that has upended all our lives. Communicating our work to the public and speaking to the media is an important part of my job, and I’ve always tried to be clear and accurate about the science: I believe the available vaccines against Covid-19 are safe, and they are our best route back to a more normal way of living.

I’ve been concerned about the anti-vaccination movement since before the pandemic. But I never imagined that my own work could actually be part of their misinformation arsenal. So I was shocked to discover that a recent TV interview I did for ITV London News had been seized on by anti-vax and conspiracy activists and now has thousands of likes, shares and retweets across social media.

The original interview was about our research on the Pfizer vaccine, which found that the antibody levels it generates are not as good at neutralising the Delta variant than against the original Wuhan strain – a simple update on likely vaccine protection. But the widely shared versions of the video were often edited, or taken out of context, to make me out to be some sort of supervillain, or the unlikely hero of the anti-vax world.

In some videos, I’m shown playing the part of the brave dissenter inside the establishment, blowing the whistle against some imagined harm of the vaccine. In another, I’m introduced as the head of the “UK bioweapons programme”, being caught admitting that the Covid vaccine could somehow destroy your immune system.

Like the virus itself, the videos seemed to be mutating and spreading, with new, more virulent variants catching on online. One of the most widely viewed videos created a convoluted and conspiratorial narrative involving vaccines, alien DNA and abortion which was repeated over and over – and featured the same clip of me replayed over and over at various points.

Judging by the messages coming into my inbox, there are a lot of people taken in by this. I get tens of notifications a week (even three months later) from people still citing these videos as proof that vaccines don’t work.









						As a virologist I’m shocked my work has been hijacked by anti-vaxxers | David LV Bauer
					

A news interview I did was re-edited and misquoted by online conspiracy theorists. My advice is: get the vaccine, says David LV Bauer of the Francis Crick Institute




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (9 September 2021)

basilio said:


> This story sums up why  the stories spread by the anti vaxxer groups should be treated with great care.
> 
> A Virologist gave an interview and then found his words had been re edited to completely misrepresent what he said.
> And these messages were pumped out to millions of people under his name and status.
> ...



Ironic a media outlet voicing someone's concerns, that they are being misquoted, selective edited and being taken out of context, i mean only anti vaxxers do that.  🤣  🤣  🤣


----------



## basilio (9 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Ironic a media outlet voicing someone's concerns, that they are being misquoted, selective edited and being taken out of context, i mean only anti vaxxers do that.  🤣  🤣  🤣




Come on SP. Where are you going with this ?
That really anti vaxxers are no different to  The Age or The Guardian of BBC perhaps ?

Or perhaps you mean creatures like Andrew Bolt and pseudo news sites that create and spread these poisonous lies  ?









						Covid anti-vaxxers: 'Shut down fake news sites,' begs daughter
					

The woman says her parents have been fooled by conspiracy theories about Covid online.



					www.bbc.com
				




Having said that. YES there are plenty of examples of media trashing people with misquotations and selective editing. I'm just not sure using this example is doing anyone any favours - unless your an anti vaxxer.


----------



## rederob (9 September 2021)

The chart showing 7-day averages for jab rates see us a fair way behind cuz in NZ, but at least we are in the leading pack.
No doubt our Pommie mates who flew in extra doses of the good stuff for us last week will see the trend sustainable through September, but remember we are still not at the halfway mark needed to lift some restrictions.




Another 3 months at this rate gets us over National Cabinet's first hurdle.
(We are presently at 31% for fully vaccinated.)


----------



## wayneL (9 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Come on SP. Where are you going with this ?
> That really anti vaxxers are no different to  The Age or The Guardian of BBC perhaps ?
> 
> Or perhaps you mean creatures like Andrew Bolt and pseudo news sites that create and spread these poisonous lies  ?
> ...



LMAO

Comedy gold right there.

I seem to recall someone breathlessly posting reports of full hospitals of people overdosing on horse wormer...

... That's subsequently got completely debunked

FAKE NEWS.

Come on baz, you know, we know, and you know that we know; but you all lie through your teeth anyway.


----------



## sptrawler (9 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Come on SP. Where are you going with this ?
> That really anti vaxxers are no different to  The Age or The Guardian of BBC perhaps ?
> 
> Or perhaps you mean creatures like Andrew Bolt and pseudo news sites that create and spread these poisonous lies  ?
> ...



You don't have to look at fringe news Bas, for selective editing.
Last week on the SMH website, there was a headline that the PM's head of staff had stopped the parliamentary investigation into the Higgins rape allegations, that is all that could be read by the casual reader who hadn't subscribed.

On the ABC website, covering the very same headline it stated, the P.M's head of staff had stopped the parliamentary investigation into the Higgins rape allegations, due to a criminal investigation commencing which it could compromise.

Same headline, different editing, completely different innuendo IMO.


----------



## macca (10 September 2021)

Just reading Novovax Vaccine should be available this year in Oz.

Apparently, this is actually a vaccine using the same method they have been using to make HepB shots for decades.

If the restrictions continue then I would have this just to unlock my world

I will still keep all the bug killers in the pantry for when I get the rotten thing, eventually

<<The Novavax COVID-19 vaccine was created using recombinant nanoparticle technology which contains the full length SARS-CoV-2 spike protein and a Matrix-M1 adjuvant (an additional vaccine component that boosts the immune response).>>





__





						Novavax COVID-19 vaccine - The Melbourne Vaccine Education Centre (MVEC)
					

Name: NVX-CoV2373 (Novavax COVID-19 vaccine) Type: Protein vaccine (nanoparticle-based vaccine) Developer: Novavax Likely doses/timing: 2 doses (21 days apart) Doses




					mvec.mcri.edu.au
				




More reading on the vaccine, got me









						The mRNA Vaccines Are Extraordinary, but Novavax Is Even Better
					

Persistent hype around mRNA vaccine technology is now distracting us from other ways to end the pandemic.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## wayneL (10 September 2021)

As of this moment, I am identifying as a woman. It is now Ms wayneL from now on, bigots.


----------



## sptrawler (11 September 2021)

rederob said:


> The chart showing 7-day averages for jab rates see us a fair way behind cuz in NZ, but at least we are in the leading pack.
> No doubt our Pommie mates who flew in extra doses of the good stuff for us last week will see the trend sustainable through September, but remember we are still not at the halfway mark needed to lift some restrictions.
> View attachment 130069
> 
> ...



Do you want to take bets on that? 








						Covid-19 vaccine Australia rollout tracker: total number of people and per cent vaccinated, daily vaccine doses and rate of progress
					

How does Australia’s coronavirus vaccine rollout and schedule compare with other countries, and when will Australia reach 70% and 80% double dose vaccination? We bring together the latest numbers on the vaccination rate in Victoria, NSW, Queensland and other states, as well as stats, maps, live...




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## grah33 (12 September 2021)

macca said:


> Just reading Novovax Vaccine should be available this year in Oz.
> 
> Apparently, this is actually a vaccine using the same method they have been using to make HepB shots for decades.
> 
> ...




It seems that restrictions will continue, even at 80%.  If so, do the vaccines really work?


----------



## grah33 (12 September 2021)

noirua said:


> How many double-jabbed people are dying from Covid?
> 
> 
> The higher number of fully vaccinated people dying reflects the large majority of people in England who have now been jabbed.
> ...



Yeah this data is out there . Those jabbed are dying.  Also what the guy who discovered HIV said, about the death curves and vaccination curves correlating in time .  And the other top professionals.  We just don't know


----------



## wayneL (12 September 2021)

Well how do ya like them apples? Rules for thee and not for me.









						Members of Congress and their staff are exempt from Biden's vaccine mandate
					

The president's executive orders apply to employees of the executive branch and federal government contractors.



					www.newsweek.com


----------



## bellenuit (12 September 2021)

grah33 said:


> It seems that restrictions will continue, even at 80%.  If so, do the vaccines really work?




It must be really hard going through life not knowing the difference between something being 80%+ effective and 0% effective. Not knowing  that if having the vaccine reduces your chances of hospitalisation by 90% or more and reduces your chances of dying by a similar margin, that it might be because the vaccine is working. 

Why do you assume that if something is not perfect, that it is not working?


----------



## bellenuit (12 September 2021)

grah33 said:


> Yeah this data is out there . Those jabbed are dying.




It tells you why in the subheading. Didn't you read it or perhaps didn't understand it? Here is a statement that will confirm your belief that the vaccines are the problem.

If 100% of people are fully jabbed, but the vaccine is not 100% effective and allows some breakthrough cases that result in death, then 100% of those deaths will be of vaccinated people.

Now consider the opposite. If 0% are vaccinated, then 0% of deaths will be of vaccinated people. 

Now imaging as a country progresses between those two states, from 0% vaccinated to 100% vaccinated. What will happen?

*Death curves and vaccination curves start to correlate over time.* Not rocket science. Just basic math that seems utterly beyond you.


----------



## Belli (12 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> It must be really hard going through life not knowing the difference between something being 80%+ effective and 0% effective. Not knowing  that if having the vaccine reduces your chances of hospitalisation by 90% or more and reduces your chances of dying by a similar margin, that it might be because the vaccine is working.
> 
> Why do you assume that if something is not perfect, that it is not working?




Yes and it's disappointing the OP didn't even question 80% of what exactly.


----------



## bellenuit (12 September 2021)

A nurse's viral video of beeping ICU alarms persuaded unvaccinated people to get the shot​








						A nurse's viral video of beeping ICU alarms persuaded unvaccinated people to get the shot — take a look
					

Mae Rice's video went viral. In the comments, dozens of people said they got vaccinated thanks to her.




					www.insider.com


----------



## moXJO (12 September 2021)

I will say this to people. In my opinion the vaccination is worth it. My 19 yo son has taken the shot and I'll be looking closely to studies on teenagers as eventually it will come to getting my 15yo vaxxed. 

NSW will be opened and it will go through the population. Most will get the sniffles. But a percentage of those unfortunate enough will get sick. With a percentage  of those that will die. 

If I had my time again I wouldn't get pfizer though. But for others it was fine with no effects.

NSW has reached the point where deaths are now acceptable and the economy will take precedence. If you are in nsw get vaxxed.


----------



## grah33 (13 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> It must be really hard going through life not knowing the difference between something being 80%+ effective and 0% effective. Not knowing  that if having the vaccine reduces your chances of hospitalisation by 90% or more and reduces your chances of dying by a similar margin, that it might be because the vaccine is working.
> 
> Why do you assume that if something is not perfect, that it is not working?



I think you trust the numbers too much.  and it's 80% of population vaccinated.


----------



## grah33 (13 September 2021)

Belli said:


> Yes and it's disappointing the OP didn't even question 80% of what exactly.



i meant 80% of population being vaccinated. a quoted goal  . yet they will still shut down.  vaccine doesn't seem reliable.  they have already said boosters are necessary, as vaccine 'wanes'.  might just be bull my friend.


----------



## grah33 (13 September 2021)

in favor of natural immunity (some are)









						Fauci: No 'Firm Answer' on Why Americans Who Recovered From COVID-19 Should Get Vaccinated
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci, a top U.S. public health official, said that a new study regarding so-called natural immunity ...




					www.theepochtimes.com


----------



## bellenuit (13 September 2021)

grah33 said:


> vaccine doesn't seem reliable.




One of the most stupid comments I have heard to date. As I said above, you seem incapable of differentiating between something not been 100% effective and it being useless. So what if it wanes over time and you need booster shots. If they keep you out of hospital and alive then they are doing their job. The virus mutates, so it is going to be a constant battle to keep ahead of it.


----------



## bellenuit (13 September 2021)

grah33 said:


> in favor of natural immunity (some are)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Natural immunity is terrific if you don't die and end up with long term COVID acquiring it. But achieving natural immunity in a country without using a vaccine, will not just result in a lot of unnecessary deaths and severe illness of many of those infected by COVID, but the number of serious illnesses will completely overwhelm IC units preventing those with other serious non-COVID related illnesses being treated, possibly resulting in many unnecessary deaths of those also.

If a high percentage of the population is vaccinated, hospitals will be able to cope and at that point natural immunity for those unvaccinated may not be so disruptive. But just look at some of the US states where vaccination rates are still low, mainly in the south, and you can see their hospital systems are already at breaking point. I think it was Fauci who said a few days ago that doctors will soon be put in the unenviable  position of having to decide who to treat and who to let die. This is happening now. Vaccination rates are too low for natural immunity to be a mitigating factor on overstretched ICUs. Read up on it instead of wasting your time on anti-vax sites.


----------



## Belli (13 September 2021)

grah33 said:


> i meant 80% of population being vaccinated.




OK, that 80% which keeps on being mentioned is 80% of the *eligible *population i.e. those 16 yo and above who were then eligible to receive a vaccine.  That equates to less than 65% of the total population yet children are known to be effective spreaders of Covid.  Herd immunity is I understand when at least 80% and preferable 95% of the *total *population is vaccinated against a disease.


----------



## basilio (13 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well how do ya like them apples? Rules for thee and not for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When one reads the article it is about  the reality that members of Congress and their staff don't fall under Federal legislation for employees.


----------



## bellenuit (13 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> But just look at some of the US states where vaccination rates are still low, mainly in the south, and you can see their hospital systems are already at breaking point. I think it was Fauci who said a few days ago that doctors will soon be put in the unenviable position of having to decide who to treat and who to let die. This is happening now. Vaccination rates are too low for natural immunity to be a mitigating factor on overstretched ICUs.




Alabama heart patient dies after hospital contacts 43 ICUs in 3 states, family says​








						Alabama patient dies after hospital contacts 43 ICUs in 3 states, family says
					

“He would not want any other family to go through what his did,” his family said.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## wayneL (13 September 2021)

As a go around my rounds I am sing a few people who were previously not willing to be vaccinated having booked in to become vaccinated.

What chance their mind, was it the science? What's at the research that they have a good risk-reward proposition? Were they satisfied that they I'm not likely to have a severe reaction to The vaccines?

In every case,  it is none of these reasons. In every case is is because of the coercion. these people were frightened that they would not be able to run the businesses and participate in society if they weren't vaxed.

Of course there are still a sizeable number of both clients and friends who have a steely resolve...

We live in interesting times, friends. If I stop posting it's because I'm in the gulag.


----------



## basilio (13 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> We live in interesting times, friends. If I stop posting it's because I'm in the gulag.




Or perhaps  in ICU ?


----------



## wayneL (13 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Or perhaps  in ICU ?



LMAO, nup, well if I'm in the ICU it'll be because I wasn't wearing a mask and 16 Gestapo thugs felt the need to work me over.

That's how it goes today, friend.


----------



## basilio (13 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> LMAO, nup, well if I'm in the ICU it'll be because I wasn't wearing a mask and 16 Gestapo thugs felt the need to work me over.
> 
> That's how it goes today, friend.



And indeed it would take at least 16  * REALLY BIG* Gestapo  thugs to overpower you Wayne. 

Come off it.  Seriously ? Even in your dreams do you imagine little ol Wayne could be the target for a bunch of viscous drooling antifafas just looking for a Friday night kickathon ? 

It's a worry.


----------



## wayneL (13 September 2021)

basilio said:


> And indeed it would take at least 16  * REALLY BIG* Gestapo  thugs to overpower you Wayne.
> 
> Come off it.  Seriously ? Even in your dreams do you imagine little ol Wayne could be the target for a bunch of viscous drooling antifafas just looking for a Friday night kickathon ?
> 
> It's a worry.



Not antifa, Gestapo, uniformed thugs bro.

And for the record, already had two "incidents" ... Happy to detail via pm.


----------



## wayneL (13 September 2021)

basilio said:


> And indeed it would take at least 16  * REALLY BIG* Gestapo  thugs to overpower you Wayne.
> 
> Come off it.  Seriously ? Even in your dreams do you imagine little ol Wayne could be the target for a bunch of viscous drooling antifafas just looking for a Friday night kickathon ?
> 
> It's a worry.




BTW, if the mood takes them they will use 8 to 12 to take down a 55 kilo woman.

(See viral videos my brown shirted friend)


----------



## Knobby22 (14 September 2021)

Saw the WA government is to let over 60s get Pfizer now. That will happen Australia wide I suspect within months though I am quite happy in hindsight to have received the AZ after seeing the success in the UK. It's good though to get some of the older people over the line who are scared of AZ.

I think we are doing pretty good so far as a nation.
The anti vaxer lobby are dropping off brochures into our letterboxes and Craig Kelly is doing his worst. Nasty trolls are trying to damage celebrities/musicians  who publicly say vaccines are a good thing are losing.

I am really proud of us Australians. I am really hopeful we can get to 90% now, maybe by December and all the businesses can go back to normal.
The NSW cases are plateauing at the 1500 range showing the success of the vaccination rollout. Many now are getting their second shots.  I can see the end in sight.

An unvaccinated Victorian 20 year old died yesterday at home. Didn't go to the hospital despite being sick. Didn't get tested even. Dumb way to die. Just like the 39 year old last week. 

All my sons and daughters friends have now had the first dose except one whose Mum won't let him. Poor guy (17) is too scared to disobey her. She threatened to kick him out of the house if he did even though he is doing his HSC. Freedom advocates, pah, they are all closet fascists.


----------



## IFocus (14 September 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Saw the WA government is to let over 60s get Pfizer now. That will happen Australia wide I suspect within months though I am quite happy in hindsight to have received the AZ after seeing the success in the UK. It's good though to get some of the older people over the line who are scared of AZ.
> 
> I think we are doing pretty good so far as a nation.
> The anti vaxer lobby are dropping off brochures into our letterboxes and Craig Kelly is doing his worst. Nasty trolls are trying to damage celebrities/musicians  who publicly say vaccines are a good thing are losing.
> ...





Yeah thought it was an interesting move but really needs more supply plenty of under 60 having to wait until Oct for Pfizer 1st shot.


----------



## grah33 (14 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> As a go around my rounds I am sing a few people who were previously not willing to be vaccinated having booked in to become vaccinated.
> 
> What chance their mind, was it the science? What's at the research that they have a good risk-reward proposition? Were they satisfied that they I'm not likely to have a severe reaction to The vaccines?
> 
> ...



yeah same, 2 of my close acquaintances are now thinking of getting the jab.  and another one already has.


----------



## basilio (15 September 2021)

*                   Anti Vaxxer Shocked To Discover He Carries ‘Driving Passport’        * 








A Port Macquarie man who says a vaccine passport is a contravention of the 1948 United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, was astonished this morning to discover a ‘driving passport’ had been sitting in his wallet since 1996.

“I never signed up for this,” said Richard Mallison, 42, who took his driving test at the age of 17 and renewed his licence four years ago. Pulling the offending card from his wallet, a shocked Mr Mallison called friends to ask if they had seen anything like it before. “It’s got your photo on it, your address, your name. Everything! And I’ve had this thing on my person every day for over two decades”.                                                                                                           
Putting on his seatbelt and reversing out of his driveway, Mallison let out a panicked squeal as it dawned on him that the passport was legally required in order to access certain activities.

“Next thing you know you’ll need one of these things to get into a pub”.









						Anti Vaxxer Shocked To Discover He Carries ‘Driving Passport’
					

"Next thing you know you'll need one to get into a pub"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## basilio (16 September 2021)

The COVID karma bus is on the road.









						Mum regrets anti-vaccine stance
					

A four-year-old Texas girl has died of Covid-19 — which she likely contracted from her mum, a staunch anti-vaxxer, the grieving parent said.




					www.news.com.au
				












						Anti-vax ‘fanatic’ dies of Covid
					

US radio host Bob Enyart — a self-proclaimed “right-wing religious fanatic” who urged a boycott of Covid-19 vaccines — has died after contracting the coronavirus earlier this month while fighting mask and social distancing restrictions in court.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## wayneL (16 September 2021)

At least you're getting your propaganda from sources other the the gUaRdIaN now @basilio


----------



## basilio (16 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> At least you're getting your propaganda from sources other the the gUaRdIaN now @basilio




But clearly you don't believe it regardless of where it comes from .


----------



## wayneL (16 September 2021)

basilio said:


> But clearly you don't believe it regardless of where it comes from .



nEwS is just as bad as the gUaRdIaN, both tabloids.

Can you not remember all yours (and others) trashing of Murdoch?

I prefer more sober sources.


----------



## basilio (16 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> nEwS is just as bad as the gUaRdIaN, both tabloids.
> 
> Can you not remember all yours (and others) trashing of Murdoch?
> 
> I prefer more sober sources.



xxxx your "sober" sources.   I just can't ever recall anything you have used as a source on COVID that passed the smell test.

And trashing Murdoch ?  I certainly believe that a significant part of their publication particularly on CC is poisonous rubbish. Most of that comes from the commentators rather than the reporters.  

But that doesn't mean they can't and don't do some quality reporting.


----------



## wayneL (16 September 2021)

basilio said:


> xxxx your "sober" sources.   I just can't ever recall anything you have used as a source on COVID that passed the smell test.
> 
> And trashing Murdoch ?  I certainly believe that a significant part of their publication particularly on CC is poisonous rubbish. Most of that comes from the commentators rather than the reporters.
> 
> But that doesn't mean they can't and don't do some quality reporting.



This is comical, so you are saying #### sober sources like John Hopkins, et al?

You just admitted that you favour breathless alarmism over data statistics, and analysis LMAO!


----------



## divs4ever (16 September 2021)

too many conflicted interests these days , media reliant on advertisers , institutions reliant on donors and research grants 

 research carefully 

 Trump was correct to cut W.H.O. funding though  it is collecting heaps from elsewhere , and does NOT give value for money ( to most of the world )


----------



## wayneL (16 September 2021)

Stuffed if I know which thread this belongs in, but has his does deal with the treatment of Covid, so I suppose this is as good as any.

And just a heads up for @basilio too.(unless you don't think Quadrant is credible  )





__





						A Sad and Shameful Day for Australian Medicine – Quadrant Online
					






					quadrant.org.au


----------



## rederob (16 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Stuffed if I know which thread this belongs in, but has his does deal with the treatment of Covid, so I suppose this is as good as any.
> 
> And just a heads up for @basilio too.(unless you don't think Quadrant is credible  )
> 
> ...



Your linked article is nonsense.
First, there is no credible data showing Ivermectin "reduces mortality in the order of 60 per cent".
Second, there are a number of treatments in use, so to claim “Sorry, no treatment for COVID-19 is legally available" is an outright *lie*.
The so called evidence Clancy links to are his own articles.  Clancy is so poor at his craft he is still an advocate of hydroxychloroquine!
Not content, Clancy then goes in a conspiracy theory rant over Cochrane's meta analysis.
If Clancy thinks IVM is so good, he should get together with like minded peers and get a proper clinical trial underway and prove it.
The bottom line here is that at present we simply don't know enough about IVM to recommend it as a treatment for covid.


----------



## sptrawler (16 September 2021)

Well one would hope, that Victoria isn't throwing any pfizer vaccine, due to hesitancy. it all sounds good for the media, but if the very young aren't coming forward, it makes sense to use it. W.A, Queensland and S.A are.








						'Boomer entitlement': Victoria Premier refuses to offer Pfizer to over 60s
					

As Pfizer supplies ramp up, more states are offering the vaccine to over 60s amid the ongoing risk from the NSW outbreak. But Daniel Andrews said he won’t be doing the same. Find out why.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				












						‘Why do this?’: Anna’s vaccine call slammed
					

Annastacia Palaszczuk has been accused of “pushing young people to the back” by making the Pfizer vaccine available for Queenslanders aged over 60.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## Belli (17 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well one would hope, that Victoria isn't throwing any pfizer vaccine, due to hesitancy. it all sounds good for the media, but if the very young aren't coming forward, it makes sense to use it. W.A, Queensland and S.A are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Bloody cork sniffers.

My son, who is 30, got first dose of AZ from his doctor in May.  Just in case he met resistance he gathered info on the risk factors available from ATAGI statements as well as risks if he contracted Covid.  I suppose you could say he was well informed.  Feedback I got was although his Dr was a little surprised he agreed "Patient well aware of various risks" thing.

Zilch side effects and received 2nd dose in August.


----------



## sptrawler (17 September 2021)

Belli said:


> Bloody cork sniffers.
> 
> My son, who is 30, got first dose of AZ from his doctor in May.  Just in case he met resistance he gathered info on the risk factors available from ATAGI statements as well as risks if he contracted Covid.  I suppose you could say he was well informed.  Feedback I got was although his Dr was a little surprised he agreed "Patient well aware of various risks" thing.
> 
> Zilch side effects and received 2nd dose in August.



My youngest daughter who is 34, has also decided on the AZ over the pfizer, obviously not everyone is sold on mRNA. 
I think a lot of people, have just left getting the vaccine, until it became obvious you were going to have to have one, that time has obviously been brought forward with the Delta variant..


----------



## Belli (17 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> My youngest daughter who is 34, has also decided on the AZ over the pfizer, obviously not everyone is sold on mRNA.
> I think a lot of people, have just left getting the vaccine, until it became obvious you were going to have to have one, that time has obviously been brought forward with the Delta variant..




It was one aspect my son took into account.  However, he also reasoned after observing the progression of Delta in India, then UK, Europe, the USA and other countries as they couldn't contain it, it was going to hit Oz no matter what.  He reckoned it was a no brainer.


----------



## basilio (17 September 2021)

This  is so good . First Dog on the Moon has summed up the COVID vaccine passport brilliantly.









						Do you have your vaccine passport? And certificate of wokeness? | First Dog on the Moon
					

Seriously, it’s a good idea, but we’re worried about government misuse




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (19 September 2021)

Good video, answers a lot of questions for those with vaccine hesitancy:


----------



## moXJO (19 September 2021)

It should be noted that FDA  did not recommend booster shots of Pfizer at this stage. Only for some selected over 65s and at risk.


----------



## Knobby22 (20 September 2021)

The latest figures on getting the first dose are quite good.
Well north of 90% of the population have taken the first dose in the older age groups and the lagging group being 60 -64 year olds has nearly caught up with the 55-59 and 65-69 and older age groups. It is heartening.
The next group lagging a little is the 45-49 year olds who have been passed by the 40-44 year old cohort.


----------



## wayneL (20 September 2021)

Holy mother of God!


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2021)

This is the same as what I have been hearing from my clients who are medical staff.


----------



## rederob (21 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Holy mother of God!




Another twit from the twitterverse spouts his baseless claims, but @wayneL will latch onto these fools at every opportunity rather than use proven medical science.
Dr Cole, from the video, is proof that politicising covid is dangerous, as Idaho is amongst the worst performing US States at present.
@wayneL's next post is equally devoid of any useful information and is representative of the type of rubbish that a small portion of the community tap into because they are more likely to believe in conspiracies and pseudoscience than what is proven to be useful.


----------



## moXJO (21 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> This is the same as what I have been hearing from my clients who are medical staff.




This one is true of the mrna vax. It can cause inflammation (I got it) and is one of the possible side effects. I'm going in for a heart check up this week. Apparently it can also cause inflammation in the brain. I'm still having trouble with it in my hands. Unfortunately I didn't check till after. Another unsubstantiated  effect is women having late menstrual cycles. 

Plenty of studies done. But it "apparently" only affects a certain amount of people. Covid will do worse to the heart at a high %

Unfortunately a lot of misinformation that's making things worse. Some of the studies that antivax use were from pre 2018. They were on the tech not the vax and a lot of the problems were the dose rate of lipid nanoparticles and how they effected organs.

All of it is simply a % play. Covid comes out at a higher risk. Although I probably would have gone astraZ


----------



## moXJO (21 September 2021)

This is also why I advised against pfizer. Boosters were shot down in the US as unnecessary for now. 



I'm not sure if Moderna or astra  needed a booster as soon?

I know astra lasted. I won't be getting one unless I see proof it's needed


----------



## basilio (22 September 2021)

Not all vaccines have to be produced by huge multinational drug company. 
Seems that necessity has created some imaginative Mothers of Invention around the world.
It would be invaluable to see how effective and safe these vaccines prove.

Vaccines that grow on leaves and don't need needles: A look at COVID jabs you may not have heard of​By Erin Handley with wires
Posted 3h ago3 hours ago, updated 1h ago1 hours ago





 Many countries are developing home-grown vaccines against COVID-19.(
ABC: Graphics by Jarrod Fankhauser
)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article



You've heard of Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca, but what about Medigen and Zydus Cadila? 
Key points:​
India has approved the world's first DNA vaccine, a needle-free option
Canada-based Medicago is growing the vaccine on a plant closely related to tobacco 
Iran initially banned US vaccines and Taiwan rebuffed jabs from China
In the race to vaccinate the world and in the face of supply issues and sanctions, some countries have developed homegrown vaccines.

There are geopolitics and vaccine nationalism at play, but the pandemic has seen a flurry of vaccine development – from the first-ever DNA vaccine to one grown on leaves.

While a lot of these vaccines sound new, the science and technologies they're built on have been around for a long time.
As ANU virologist David Tscharke notes, vaccine development is a tough business – in the past, if a vaccine already existed for a disease it was difficult to break through with a new idea.

But the pandemic has blown the field wide open.
"Nobody knew who was going to be first, nobody knew if the first one would work," Professor Tscharke said.
"So there was an enormous push into all of these really interesting vaccine technologies."









						Iran banned US vaccines, Taiwan snubbed China's. Here's what they came up with instead
					

You've heard of Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca, but what about Medigen and Zydus Cadila?




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (23 September 2021)

With Moderna added to our arsenal, and Pfizer recently being rolled out at walk-in mass vaccination centres, our jab rate is curently the highest of all westernised nations:




Cuba is producing and rolling out its own vaccine and, as you can see, are in a race of their own to get their country fully vaccinated.  I expect Cuba to become one of the highest vaccinated nations before the year is out due to the nature of their medical system.


----------



## basilio (23 September 2021)

Caravan Park owners on the banks of the Murray announced they would soon be  requiring all patrons to be double vaxxed.
Took 15 seconds  after for their Facebook announcement to cop the wrath of  COVID denialists and anti- vaxxers.
















						Caravan park owners 'stunned' by torrent of abuse over their vaccination stance
					

On the banks of the Murray River, the owners of the Curlwaa Caravan Park are not backing down from their vaccination policy despite the trolling on social media.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Key points:​
The Curlwaa Caravan Park announced on Facebook it would only accept people fully vaccinated against COVID-19
The owner's father lives on the park site and is at a greater risk of serious illness from the virus
Feedback on social media for the park's vaccine policy has been fierce


----------



## basilio (26 September 2021)

Another view on life in Europe .  Looks fun and free !!









						'Like COVID never existed': Aussie expats share how other countries are getting back to normal
					

Mediterranean holidays, mask-free dance floors and a life that feels somewhat "normal". After emerging from long winter lockdowns, these Australian expats shed light on what "living with COVID" looks like and what it took to get there.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## grah33 (26 September 2021)

gotta catch up on these posts .  my new work at home  job required some intense  (out of hours ) training.
feel sorry for the tradies


----------



## wayneL (26 September 2021)

grah33 said:


> gotta catch up on these posts .  my new work at home  job required some intense  (out of hours ) training.
> feel sorry for the tradies



I think my trade, here in Perth, is an interestin case study. There is a critical shortage of my trade here... Especially with my skills, I can basically pick and choose who I want to work for. Nobody actually gives a crap, apart from in general conversation, what my vaccine status is (and I really don't give a crap what my clients is either).

And here is the thing thatt I am getting at: If anyone wants to get petty and pedantic about me being vaccinated or not, I will just wave goodbye, au revoir, auf wiedersehn, adios, ta ta, pip pip, and all that rot; never to cross their path again.... Their likelihood of replacing me... Buckley's chance, and they know it.

Even if because of a critical shortage that I have more power than usual in that regard, all trades have that power, if only their collective IQ was > moron status.

Tradies have the cookie, they just don't realise it.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 September 2021)

In NSW, Gladys passed a law that said if you are working in a nursing homes then you must be vaccinated.

This is fair as we all know that when you are elderly your immune system is weak and you expect the staff to be vaccinated for the flu and Covid.

A receptionist was sacked for refusing to be vaccinated. She went to Work Choices to appeal. She lost today. 

A win for the common good against the selfish.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 September 2021)

Monash and Melbourne Universities have ruled that all staff are to be vaccinated and students that are vaccinated only will be allowed to return.

Word is that there is a very tiny number of students that may not want to get vaccinated (expected to be less than 1%) and the Unis will probably offer them alternative  courses run remotely. Obviously this means though that in some cases their degrees cannot continue. Degrees like Medicine though are filled with educated students so there is not expected to be any withdrawals.

I expect other Unis around the country to follow their lead.


----------



## wayneL (28 September 2021)

I haven't been able to verify the bona fides of this yet, but this is doing the rounds of the interwebz at the moment.





__





						AFFIDAVIT OF LTC. THERESA LONG M.D. IN SUPPORT OF A MOTION FOR A PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION ORDER – Deep Capture
					





					www.deepcapture.com


----------



## rederob (29 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> I haven't been able to verify the bona fides of this yet, but this is doing the rounds of the interwebz at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's probably a real affidavit, but it's written by a person who has no competencies in immunology and is a joke from a medical perspective.
Like most material championed by fruitcakes who pander to conspiracies this one is full of the best ingredients:

It's in *Deep Capture* (born out of conspiracy theories - read about Patrick Byrne)
It makes silly and baseless claims, eg
@ #25 - polyethylene glycol (“PEG”) may well be close in molecular makeup to Propylene Glycol, a common ingredient in antifreeze, but it's analogous to saying we can put plastic in our fuel tank instead of petrol.
@ #26 - her opinion is debunked by medical experts
the idea @ #31 that natural immunity *after *infection gives immunity defeats the purpose of increasing immunity so one is *not infected* (truly stupid point)
her claim @ #32 that she is "_not aware of the Comirnaty available within the DOD_" is based wholly on the conspiracy theory that Pfizer's covid vaccine is *not* really Comirnaty!!!
@ #33 she relies on renown anti-vaxxer Bart Classen's totally  discredited work for many of her ideas.

Once again @wayneL shows his conspiracy theory links in the dribble he offers up.


----------



## wayneL (29 September 2021)

Interesting conversation today with a (now ex) client.

Backstory: I was brought in on this remedial case and nobody either has the capacity or the capability to take this person's case on.

Kind of out of the blue, the person medic comment about "irresponsible anti-vaxxers".

I asked her what's the definition of an anti vaxxer (see my posts on this topic elsewhere) is and why she thought such people irresponsible.

It was her opinion that the unvaccinated were a risk to the vaccinated... LMAO

As I was packing my tools up, halfway through the job, I explained my responsibilities as I see them, and that it is not the responsibility of people who are unvaccinated to protect the vaccinated but that is the job of the vaccination.

I've got quite enough money now to retire to the south-west and tell everybody to get f*****. I keep working because I enjoy it and also that there is a need for my services... Covid apartheid may just force me out of a game to the detriment of many people who need my services.

Mrs, who astonishingly does enjoy my company, is encouraging me to quit now and go and live our our dotage away from the frickin insanity, ride our nags, and be elderly ******* hippies down south somewhere.

This probably should have been in the economic effects of COVID thread, because even though I have only been here a short time the withdrawal of my services will have an economic affect... But it is the vaccine and the insanity surrounding which is the motivator.

I'm just going to see how many idiots I have to sack.


----------



## moXJO (29 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Interesting conversation today with a (now ex) client.
> 
> Backstory: I was brought in on this remedial case and nobody either has the capacity or the capability to take this person's case on.
> 
> ...



It was annoying when it was book burning and cancel culture. It's something else when it becomes 'coercion' and loss of body autonomy.
This blending of the facts so that the actual truth is so obscure (from either side) is ridiculous as well.


----------



## wayneL (30 September 2021)

Vax mandates by businesses, in the vast majority of cases not lawful... Thread:


----------



## macca (30 September 2021)

I found this USA Facebook page amazing, firstly because there are over 100,000 replies, mainly citing bad reactions to the vaccines.

I am also amazed that it is allowed to continue...............................

Edit: I posted a link, then clicked on it to check and now my wifes facebook account is suspended.

Facebook may be upset with me but I am more worried about my wife


----------



## wayneL (1 October 2021)

Medical whistleblowers









						AUSTRALIAN NURSES SPEAK OUT!
					

There is a new Anonymous whistleblowing channel for Nurses & Healthcare workers in Australia on Telegram. They share verified experiences from frontline workers who see firsthand the damage caused by COVID-19 vaccinations. These submissions have been vetted by a collective of health...




					www.notonthebeeb.co.uk


----------



## basilio (1 October 2021)

* Anti- vaccination movements*

Plenty of historical precedents for the current arguments over COVID vaccines. I found an excellent source on the topic.

History of Anti-vaccination Movements​ 
Health and medical scholars have described vaccination as one of the top ten achievements of public health in the 20th century.[1] Yet, opposition to vaccination has existed as long as vaccination itself[2] (indeed, the pre-vaccination practice of variolation came under criticism as well: see our timeline for details). Critics of vaccination have taken a variety of positions, including opposition to the smallpox vaccine in England and the United States in the mid to late 1800s, and the resulting anti-vaccination leagues; as well as more recent vaccination controversies such as those surrounding the safety and efficacy of the diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis (DTP) immunization, the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine, and the use of a mercury-containing preservative called thimerosal.
Smallpox and the Anti-vaccination Leagues in England​Widespread smallpox vaccination began in the early 1800s, following Edward Jenner’s cowpox experiments, in which he showed that he could protect a child from smallpox if he infected him or her with lymph from a cowpox blister. Jenner’s ideas were novel for his time, however, and they were met with immediate public criticism. The rationale for this criticism varied, and included sanitary, religious, scientific, and political objections.









						History of Anti-vaccination Movements | History of Vaccines
					

Health and medical scholars have described vaccination as one of the top ten achievements of public health in the 20th century.[1] Yet, opposition to vaccination has existed as long as vaccination itself[2] (indeed, the pre-vaccination…




					ftp.historyofvaccines.org


----------



## basilio (2 October 2021)

The “Natural Immunity Is Better Than Vaccine-acquired Immunity” Misconception​Some people argue that the immunity gained from surviving a natural infection provides better protection than that provided by vaccines. While it’s true that natural immunity _lasts_ longer in some cases than vaccine-induced immunity can, the risks of natural _infection _outweigh the risks of immunization for every recommended vaccine.

For example, wild measles infection causes encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) for one in 1,000 infected individuals, and, for every 1,000 reported measles cases, two individuals die. The combination MMR (measles, mumps, and rubella) vaccine, however, results in encephalitis or a severe allergic reaction only once in every _million_ vaccinated individuals, while preventing measles infection. The benefits of vaccine-acquired immunity extraordinarily outweigh the serious risks of natural infection, even in cases where boosters are required to maintain immunity.

Additionally, the Hib _(Haemophilus Influenzae_ type b) and tetanus vaccines actually provide more effective immunity than natural infection.









						Misconceptions about Vaccines | History of Vaccines
					

Many misconceptions about vaccines have persisted for decades because of a poor understanding of how vaccination works. Some of the most common vaccination-related misconceptions are addressed here.…




					ftp.historyofvaccines.org


----------



## Knobby22 (3 October 2021)

Some mornings I go for walks with a friend, one of the few things we can do in Melbourne.

He has a close friend who is a bit of a genius and now lives in the UK and is a virologist (and actually has had hand developing one of the vaccines).

He explained to my friend the difference between mRNA and AZ vaccines as an analogy in building terms so we mortals can understand.

Basically if you imagine we are house and on one side is an assailant, Delta.

When you take up AZ you are creating a single brick wall. When Delta attacks it mostly works but its only a single brick wall so sometimes it gets damaged and it gets you however the wall is easy to fix and so you are OK.

When you take mRNA you are creating a double brick wall. Really hard for the virus to break through but if it does you cannot fix the double brick wall as easily and may get quite sick.

AZ has been shown to be not as effective in preventing catching Delta variant however extremely effective in preventing hospitalisation. It also more effective long term. 

So personally I now think generally AZ is the way to go if you are over 50. mRNA under 50.


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2021)

rederob said:


> Despite the good turnouts in NSW, Australia as a whole remains a long way behind in the "not a race" to be vaccinated:
> View attachment 129750




I wonder how we are travelling one month on, from this post? Any chance of putting up a recent graph Rob?


----------



## rederob (6 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder how we are travelling one month on, from this post? Any chance of putting up a recent graph Rob?



*Below is a table of fully vaccinated - randomly chosen nations:*




	

		
			
		

		
	
Globally we rank around 50th at the moment, but are a bit further ahead with first doses.
Most European nations are ahead of us, a fair bit of the Middle East, plus a smattering of Asian and South American countries.
Given NSW just hit the 70% fully vaccinated (over 16s) and plans to further ease restrictions, I suspect other States will not want to be left far behind.  Today my locally pharmacy was for the first time offering jabs, and was chokka.  I reckon this would have been the case months ago had we had vaccine supply as vaccine hesitancy drops significantly as more people get jabbed.


----------



## Knobby22 (6 October 2021)

rederob said:


> *Below is a table of fully vaccinated - randomly chosen nations:*
> View attachment 131131
> 
> 
> ...



I thought Israel would be higher.


----------



## macca (6 October 2021)

A discussion on the Indian Bar Assoc taking on WHO over Ivermectin.

This supposedly dangerous drug has been used since 1975 and over 4 billion doses have been taken


----------



## rederob (6 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I thought Israel would be higher.



I think the table I use bases the percentage on total national population rather than over 16s, which could explain the lower level than we thought.


----------



## rederob (6 October 2021)

macca said:


> A discussion on the Indian Bar Assoc taking on WHO over Ivermectin.
> 
> This supposedly dangerous drug has been used since 1975 and over 4 billion doses have been taken




The law suit is a sick joke, pun intended.  
Moreover, the WHO is not a relevant entity in the matter as they have no authority to determine what any nation does.  The idiot lawyers need to read their Charter!
Ivermectin remains unproven.  Lots of links in ASF threads show the shoddy research used by ivermectin advocates.
Maybe one day there will be something definitive on ivermectin, but for now it's use on covid is not recommended and, for some people, can have serious consequences.


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I thought Israel would be higher.



Yes the original graph of vaccinations per 100 people was great, obviously it isn't so good for Australia now. 



			https://www.aussiestockforums.com/attachments/1630536059384-png.129750/


----------



## rederob (7 October 2021)

You can see from the table below why the USA is in trouble with covid infections, despite getting 3 vaccine candidates approved and having more supply available than needed for full coverage:






Hesitancy has slowed America's rate dramatically, and second dose rates have also tailed off.
Cuz across the ditch is ahead of us with total dose rates but behind with second doses.

I have a sneaking suspicion that while our States have inconsistent stances on a range of measures, the rivalries between them will work in our collective favour to get us to well over 80%.   Neither Victoria nor Queensland ever like to see NSW get ahead, while WA and SA had a traditional rivalry until the 1980's when Perth steamrolled Adelaide's population as the mining boom got into full swing.
Here's how the daily numbers swing across Australia:





And a few days later:


----------



## wayneL (8 October 2021)

FYI q&a under Oath in court:

Barrister: is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely to catch and spread the virus?

Christine McCartney: Yes

B: are vaccines dangerous at all to pregnant women although is planning to fall pregnant?

CM: Yes

B: is it true that The vaccines have never been studied for effectiveness and safety?

CM: Yes, they have never been fully studied.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Barrister: is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely to catch and spread the virus?
> 
> Christine McCartney: Yes




Probably because they are more likely to be breaking lockdowns thinking that they are immune. As we know vaccinations don't stop you getting or spreading the virus, they just reduce the symptoms.


----------



## rederob (8 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> FYI q&a under Oath in court:
> 
> Barrister: is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely to catch and spread the virus?
> 
> ...




You will note there is no source material confirming the info in @wayneL's post.
The simple reason for this is because it's *untrue*.
Yet another case of the misinformation @wayneL continues to peddle at ASF.


----------



## wayneL (8 October 2021)

Tw@tter on the money at last LMAO


----------



## sptrawler (8 October 2021)

It sounds as though vaccine uptake is taking off in all States, I guess the threats of exclusion to a lot of activities, is increasing enthusiasm.








						First dose COVID-19 vaccination rates remain slow in remote NT
					

New Australian government data shows first dose COVID-19 vaccination rates have shot past 90 per cent in Darwin's CBD and inner suburbs, but are still at a crawl in some remote parts of the Northern Territory.




					www.abc.net.au
				








__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				












						Vaccination Rates Soar-The Last 2021 News
					

The figures were released during the week by the Australian Government Department of Health at Outlining show the vaccination rates in each Local Government...




					hillstohawkesbury.com.au
				












						NSW hits 70 per cent vaccination target, bringing state closer to 'proper summer'
					

Premier Dominic Perrottet announces 70 per cent of people aged 16 and over are now fully vaccinated against COVID-19, describing it as "great news" that has brought NSW closer to a "proper summer".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## bellenuit (9 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> FYI q&a under Oath in court:
> 
> Barrister: is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely to catch and spread the virus?
> 
> ...





I haven't been able to find anything at all to support that court conversation. Do you have a link to the actual court case?

This Twitter guy Start Flame 11 11 hasn't provided any link whatsoever and he seems very suspicious. This is his Patreon page:



			https://www.patreon.com/join/StarFlame1111
		


Even in the video he warns off fact checking his statement. And all he does is hold a piece of paper in his hands that just has those statements you posted, but has no heading or anything that could lead one to identify what court case he is talking about . He even misspells Christine McCartney's first name. It is Kristine. No mention of who the barrister is at all, he just calls him _barrister_.

The fact that all three answers are complete nonsense and unsupported by any reliable authority makes me believe that this is just a hoax post. The fact that there is no way to fact check the statements and he goes out of his way to warn against fact checking adds to my suspiciousness.


----------



## sptrawler (9 October 2021)

Sounds like there is a hiccup, with the Moderna vaccine in Europe, apparently young people and heart inflammation.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 October 2021)

Fascinating article in today's Age about who is most likely to not take the vaccine.
As with Sydney, no. 1 is the poorly educated Western suburbs. No surprise there.

Second is the wealthy far left suburbs with Green members in Parliament.
It makes sense, big pharma was a lefty meme and they believe that because they only eat organic food and do yoga that they are protected. They can fall back on alternative therapies if they get sick. By the way, this is the area the mid 30s women died recently from covid at home without getting tested or getting any western treatment.

Another one in wealthy areas is educated men in non health related fields especially engineering and data! No offence to my own profession but I would think this is where a lot of crazies of different types come from.


----------



## wayneL (9 October 2021)

It's crazy to be follow data for a while to see if it is safe?

I think that is sensible.


----------



## IFocus (9 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Fascinating article in today's Age about who is most likely to not take the vaccine.
> As with Sydney, no. 1 is the poorly educated Western suburbs. No surprise there.
> 
> Second is the wealthy far left suburbs with Green members in Parliament.
> ...





ACT vax rates @ over 90% would be an interesting study.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> ACT vax rates @ over 90% would be an interesting study.



True.
I think ACT is beginning to be the place to be in Australia. From a sleepy town to maybe the best of all worlds if they can get a better public transport system and grow a bit larger. Especially if you love skiing and art.


----------



## Belli (9 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> ACT vax rates @ over 90% would be an interesting study.





Fully vaccinated is 69.3% as at 8 October and that percentage includes those aged 12 and over.  Information is available on the ACT health site.  The number of first doses isn't reported and that is intentional.

The ACT Chief Minister has made his aim very clear and that is to reach at least 95% fully vaccinated for those eligible.

I can see the direction of his thinking as the ACT is surrounded by NSW regions, many of which are still in a bit of trouble, and the flow of people between NSW and ACT is high.  That and the health system in Canberra is the focal point for many who live in NSW from places such as Bateman's Bay, Wagga, Cooma, etc.


----------



## Belli (9 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> True.
> I think ACT is beginning to be the place to be in Australia. From a sleepy town to maybe the best of all worlds if they can get a better public transport system and grow a bit larger. Especially if you love skiing and art.




You will require a Safe Haven visa and we'll think long and hard about granting you one.


----------



## bellenuit (9 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> FYI q&a under Oath in court:
> 
> Barrister: is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely to catch and spread the virus?
> 
> ...





Seems your post pointing to and regurgitation a Twitter post that is a blatant made up lie has been removed from Twitter. Good one WayneL. Who cares if anyone has been influenced to avoid vaccines by your actions.


----------



## wayneL (9 October 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Seems your post pointing to and regurgitation a Twitter post that is a blatant made up lie has been removed from Twitter. Good one WayneL. Who cares if anyone has been influenced to avoid vaccines by your actions.



It's still up on my twitter, and yes I want to know if it's fair dinkum too.

There are lots of blatant lies, bud. I will be disappointed if that is bulshit, but there are the ones overestimating it's effectiveness and safety. They are lies too.

I just want to find the truth and that is getting hidden with all the politics and nonsense.


----------



## rederob (9 October 2021)

*Survey data on hesitancy in Australia:*




*And in other nations:




Europe looking good as a travel destination from early 2022.
USA looking dodgy, but Canada's a fantastic country to visit instead.*


----------



## rederob (9 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> It's still up on my twitter, and yes I want to know if it's fair dinkum too.
> 
> There are lots of blatant lies, bud. I will be disappointed if that is bulshit, but there are the ones overestimating it's effectiveness and safety. They are lies too.
> 
> I just want to find the truth and that is getting hidden with all the politics and nonsense.



It's a load of bollocks.
It is only possible for more vaccinated people to get covid than unvaccinated when most of the population is vaccinated and breakthroughs occur in a greater number.  Australia is a long way from this level and all the daily reports from States continue to confirm that most cases are unvaccinated.
If @wayneL was interested in learning the truth it would take him a minute on the internet at most.  I find his postings to be regularly disingenuous.


----------



## bellenuit (9 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> and yes I want to know if it's fair dinkum too.




So you posted it even though you didn't know whether it was true or not, but neglected to say that it might be wrong. Yea, take no responsibility for spreading false and dangerous information.


----------



## wayneL (9 October 2021)

bellenuit said:


> So you posted it even though you didn't know whether it was true or not, but neglected to say that it might be wrong. Yea, take no responsibility for spreading false and dangerous information.



And yet, you don't see posts on the other side as dangerous... even as so many have serious reactions?

You see no responsibility in that?

Cult behaviour bro.


----------



## wayneL (9 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> And yet, you don't see posts on the other side as dangerous... even as so many have serious reactions?
> 
> You see no responsibility in that?
> 
> Cult behaviour bro.



And to be sure, these things are put up to be debated.

If disproved... That's a good thing, either way. Oxygen is the best disinfectant.

Suppression of debate is... Well, figure that out, bro.


----------



## bellenuit (9 October 2021)

This wasn't a post that was arguing a point that I may or may not disagree with. I have no issues with that. That is the whole purpose of these forums - to let people express their opinions.

This was a complete fabrication, supposedly of a court Q & A that just didn't happen and was put out there simply to mislead. If you weren't sure it was true, you could have indicated that.

Apparently it was shared multiple times on Twitter and they have deleted those shares that have been reported.


----------



## Belli (10 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like there is a hiccup, with the Moderna vaccine in Europe, apparently young people and heart inflammation.




Not really a drama as some media outlets try to portray.  Seems they haven't learnt from when overstating cases of very rare blood clots and the sad deaths associated with AstraZeneca.









						COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 07-10-2021
					

Information about the TGA's safety monitoring of COVID-19 vaccines.




					www.tga.gov.au
				




I don't bother with news media all that much when it comes to matters such as these.


----------



## grah33 (10 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> And to be sure, these things are put up to be debated.
> 
> If disproved... That's a good thing, either way. Oxygen is the best disinfectant.
> 
> Suppression of debate is... Well, figure that out, bro.





you're lucky to work for yourself as a tradie.  hopefully we can both avoid the needle.


need to research but apparently the guy who discovered Aids virus (well known) is on the same page as us.


people here seem to have a lot of confidence in the vaccine's effectiveness.

watching people around me lose their jobs...  I wonder what else is next .


----------



## Belli (11 October 2021)

grah33 said:


> need to research but apparently the guy who discovered Aids virus (well known) is on the same page as us.




Dear ol' Luc's claim about gene sequencing "proving" Covid was, um, man made overlooked that sequencing is common to other similar organisms and so his proof meant ..........absolutely nothing.  His assertion was debunked by others with expertise in the field.


----------



## wayneL (11 October 2021)

The clown world abideth.









						How to make gatherings safer
					

Now that lockdown is easing in New South Wales, residents are more likely to be in contact with others who are unvaccinated.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## wayneL (11 October 2021)

Informed consent...


----------



## basilio (11 October 2021)

Re the soldier /marine ? who would rather die before getting this "medical procedure" - COVID vaccine.

He's quite safe. No probs.  Just won't be a soldier any more.

The US army routinely vaccinates  it's soldiers against a wide range of diseases.. It is regarded as an essential form of protection  for the individual soldier and the whole corp.To date COVID has infected  238,000 soldiers with 46 deaths.

This is the procedure they are following.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/09/15/what-happens-soldiers-who-refuse-covid-vaccine.html


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/08/19/us-military-coronavirus-vaccination-is-akin-body-armor/
		


_But the near-eradication of many of these diseases within the United States, the nascent environmentalist movement and growing distrust in the U.S. government following the Vietnam War reinvigorated the anti-vaccination movement in United States, which dated back to the late 19th century. On the matter of civil liberties and informed consent, this movement found itself at odds with the Supreme Court, which had upheld vaccine requirements in 1905 in Jacobson v. Massachusetts. The court explained that “Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy. Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.” In sum, U.S. states and other government entities could compel vaccination for the public good, but states were free to develop their own laws individually.

In the 1980s, the military responded to this growing anti-vaccination movement by standardizing its vaccination schedule for inductees and opting to require further vaccinations based upon global deployments. Currently, as part of initial entry training, service members are mandated to receive chickenpox; hepatitis A; hepatitis B; seasonal influenza; mumps, measles and rubella; polio; diphtheria; tetanus; and pertussis vaccinations._


----------



## basilio (11 October 2021)

Why COVID-19 Vaccine Is Mandated for the Military
					

Vaccinations have been part of the U.S. military since the Revolutionary War. The COVID-19 vaccine will be mandated for the service next month.




					www.healthline.com


----------



## Knobby22 (20 October 2021)

Health Minister Greg Hunt said at his speech today that the ACT is 98.1% at least first dose vaccinated.
That is truly impressive.


----------



## macca (21 October 2021)

for those with some spare time a report to dig into

<<Immunology and virology 101 have taught us over a century that natural immunity confers protection against a respiratory virus’s outer coat proteins, and not just one, e.g. the SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein. There is even strong evidence for the persistence of antibodies. Even the CDC recognizes natural immunity for chicken-pox and measles, mumps, and rubella, but not for COVID-19. 


The vaccinated are showing viral loads (very high) similar to the unvaccinated (Acharya et al. and Riemersma et al.), and the vaccinated are as infectious. Riemersma et al. also report Wisconsin data that corroborate how the vaccinated individuals who get infected with the Delta variant can potentially (and are) transmit(ting) SARS-CoV-2 to others (potentially to the vaccinated and unvaccinated). >>









						150 Plus Research Studies Affirm Naturally Acquired Immunity to Covid-19: Documented, Linked, and Quoted ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

This follow-up chart is a list of 91 scientific studies and evidence on natural immunity to allow you to draw your own conclusions..




					brownstone.org


----------



## basilio (24 October 2021)

macca said:


> for those with some spare time a report to dig into
> 
> <<Immunology and virology 101 have taught us over a century that natural immunity confers protection against a respiratory virus’s outer coat proteins, and not just one, e.g. the SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein. There is even strong evidence for the persistence of antibodies. Even the CDC recognizes natural immunity for chicken-pox and measles, mumps, and rubella, but not for COVID-19.
> 
> ...



This newly minted body and it's contributors  are  committed  to ensuring that no future US Government ever takes away it's citizens precious freedom and personal rights by having a lockdown in the case of any future medical emergency.

Let nature takes it's course.









						About Brownstone Institute ⋆ Brownstone Institute
					

Brownstone celebrates democratic institutions, freedom as the path to progress, trustworthy public health, a vibrant culture, and economic prosperity




					brownstone.org
				











						Freedom from political mandates
					

Dr. Paul Elias Alexander wrote, “Twenty Steps to End the Madness,” in the Brownstone Institute last month. He began, “Lockdowns, school closures, mask mandates, and all of the Covid-19 pandemic




					www.leader-call.com


----------



## basilio (24 October 2021)

I was out walking with some friends this morning and heard two interesting pieces of news regarding vaccination.

1) A local restaurant is taking care to ensure all patrons are double vaxxed. However the Head Chef  is not vaxxed and has no intention of being jabbed.

2) The CEO of a major international company which has large  local operations has refused to be vaxxed. He has lost his position and been sent back home.


----------



## basilio (27 October 2021)

Equality before the law.









						'Untenable and totally impractical': Unvaccinated CEO of Victorian council resigns
					

The CEO of a north-west Victorian council has resigned after electing not to be vaccinated against COVID-19.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## bellenuit (29 October 2021)

Good news....

With holidays looming, scientists point to additional data showing value of vaccines​








						With holidays looming, scientists point to additional data showing value of vaccines against delta variant
					

Uncommon breakthrough cases resolve quicker, making people less contagious, new research shows.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## DB008 (31 October 2021)

Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccination Against Risk of Symptomatic Infection, Hospitalization, and Death Up to 9 Months: A Swedish Total-Population Cohort Study​


Abstract​Background: Whether vaccine effectiveness against Coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19) lasts longer than 6 months is unclear.

Methods: A retrospective cohort study was conducted using Swedish nationwide registries. The cohort comprised 842,974 pairs (N=1,684,958), including individuals vaccinated with 2 doses of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19, mRNA-1273, or BNT162b2, and matched unvaccinated individuals. Cases of symptomatic infection and severe Covid-19 (hospitalization or 30-day mortality after confirmed infection) were collected from 12 January to 4 October 2021.

Findings: Vaccine effectiveness of BNT162b2 against infection waned progressively from 92% (95% CI, 92-93, P<0·001) at day 15-30 to 47% (95% CI, 39-55, P<0·001) at day 121-180, and from day 211 and onwards no effectiveness could be detected (23%; 95% CI, -2-41, P=0·07). The effectiveness waned slightly slower for mRNA-1273, being estimated to 59% (95% CI, 18-79) from day 181 and onwards. In contrast, effectiveness of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 was generally lower and waned faster, with no effectiveness detected from day 121 and onwards (-19%, 95% CI, -97-28), whereas effectiveness from heterologous ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 / mRNA was maintained from 121 days and onwards (66%; 95% CI, 41-80). Overall, vaccine effectiveness was lower and waned faster among men and older individuals. For the outcome severe Covid-19, effectiveness waned from 89% (95% CI, 82-93, P<0·001) at day 15-30 to 42% (95% CI, -35-75, P=0·21) from day 181 and onwards, with sensitivity analyses showing notable waning among men, older frail individuals, and individuals with comorbidities.

Interpretation: Vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic Covid-19 infection wanes progressively over time across all subgroups, but at different rate according to type of vaccine, and faster for men and older frail individuals. The effectiveness against severe illness seems to remain high through 9 months, although not for men, older frail individuals, and individuals with comorbidities. This strengthens the evidence-based rationale for administration of a third booster dose.

Funding: None to declare.

Declaration of Interest: None to declare.

Ethical Approval: This study was approved by the Swedish Ethical Review Authority (number 495/2021)​
















https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410


.​


----------



## wayneL (4 November 2021)

Pretty much what I am hearing anecdotally in my circle of contacts.


----------



## moXJO (4 November 2021)

7000 apparently haven't got the shot 4000 stood down. Wtf do they know as eyewitnesses that we don't?


----------



## macca (5 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> 7000 apparently haven't got the shot 4000 stood down. Wtf do they know as eyewitnesses that we don't?





Very smelly isn't it


----------



## grah33 (7 November 2021)

news a few days ago reporting increased numbers in hospitals because people weren't fully vaccinated (only had one shot).  sounded like bull. and before that, reporting that sick people had no shots


----------



## basilio (7 November 2021)

It seems that NSW and Victoria are closing down their mass vaccination centres because they are getting so close to double vaxxing everyone.

Sure.  However all the medical advice to date is that every citizen will need a booster vax about 6 months after the the second jab. That time will  start in January 2022 (if not earlier).  Australia effectively needs to jab 20-22 million people over a three-four month period if we are going keep COVID protection  . This doesn't even take into account new variations .

This is around 6 Million jabs a month.  I sincerely hope some thought has been given to the logistics of this happening by osmosis so to speak. IMV the process of have mass vaxes in schools, community halls, Football clubs, Church centres offers a far quicker more community orientated  approach to what is a community issue.  An intense 3-4 program would reinforce widespread support for the program.  And I think it would be cheaper than 20 million plus individual medicare consultations.


----------



## grah33 (8 November 2021)

Nurse in video putting fwd her view: People going to hospital not because of Covid, but because of the vaccine. 









						South Australian Nurse Speaks Out | Reignite Democracy Australia
					

We found the Nurse’s name…Cathy Byrne




					www.reignitedemocracyaustralia.com.au


----------



## bellenuit (8 November 2021)

Yet nobody is going to hospital because of the vaccine in WA. Speaks for itself. Just because she is a nurse doesn't mean she isn't stupid. 

30 out of 38 persons in hospital are currently vaccinated. That is just short of 80%. But that is the national average for vaccinations, so for non covid related illnesses, that is what one should expect. If the illnesses were due to the vaccine, then the number in hospital should be greater than the national average of those vaccinated.


----------



## wayneL (11 November 2021)

The California governor is rumoured to have a severe vaccine injury, apparently hasn't been sighted for a couple weeks.


----------



## wayneL (11 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Yet nobody is going to hospital because of the vaccine in WA. Speaks for itself. Just because she is a nurse doesn't mean she isn't stupid.
> 
> 30 out of 38 persons in hospital are currently vaccinated. That is just short of 80%. But that is the national average for vaccinations, so for non covid related illnesses, that is what one should expect. If the illnesses were due to the vaccine, then the number in hospital should be greater than the national average of those vaccinated.



I know of at least two people who've been to hospital from vaccine injuries, one in ICU.

Somebody is lying


----------



## bellenuit (11 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> The California governor is rumoured to have a severe vaccine injury, apparently hasn't been sighted for a couple weeks.




Zero fact checking. That sums you up totally. Throw out some unsubstantiated innuendo and then pretend innocence that you are only searching for the truth, when you could have proved your own misinformation to be false within seconds as I have done.









						PolitiFact - Claim about Gavin Newsom’s reaction to a COVID-19 booster shot is conjecture
					

A tech millionaire is floating an unsubstantiated theory that California’s governor experienced a rare illness after rec




					www.politifact.com


----------



## wayneL (11 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Zero fact checking. That sums you up totally. Throw out some unsubstantiated innuendo and then pretend innocence that you are only searching for the truth, when you could have proved your own misinformation to be false within seconds as I have done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude, I specifically said it was a *rumour*

For your edification:

rumour
/ˈruːmə/
noun
a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth.
"they were investigating rumours of a massacre"

Similar:
gossip
hearsay
talk
tittle-tattle
the grapevine
the word on the street
goss
scuttlebutt
poop
tea
furphy
fame
piece of gossip
report
story
whisper
canard
speculation
information
word
news
on dit
buzz
bruit

Opposite:
hard facts

verb
be circulated as an unverified account.
"it's rumoured that he lives on a houseboat"

****

Now, the politifact article does indeed deny the rumour, but it at this stage is only that, a denial.

Bearing in mind that there have been a number of other high-profile vaccine injuries it is not unfair speculation, and also reiterating that I stated it it was a rumour....

And also, as for the last 4 years you and your  Trump deranged brethren have been spouting absolute bulshit as fact, you can take your disparaging comments about me and stick them up your puckered up @ss.

Capisce?


----------



## Humid (11 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Dude, I specifically said it was a *rumour*
> 
> For your edification:
> 
> ...



Throw in some Latin


----------



## Humid (11 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> I know of at least two people who've been to hospital from vaccine injuries, one in ICU.
> 
> Somebody is lying



was one of them two from Cali?


----------



## wayneL (11 November 2021)

Humid said:


> Throw in some Latin



Ascendo tuum... bruh!


----------



## cynic (11 November 2021)

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/gov-gavin-newsom-moderna-booster-vaccine 

No doubt, there will, before too long(if not already), be some "fact check"s, courtesy of the "oh so trustworthy!" MSM, assuring the general public that they've found "no evidence", of any relationship between, Governor Newsom's covid booster shot, and his subsequent absence from the public eye.


----------



## bellenuit (11 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Dude, I specifically said it was a *rumour*




What difference does that make? Do you post every rumour you hear, even when applying just a minuscule of investigation would tell you it is false? When it comes to covid vaccines, you do obviously, as you are willing to grasp at anything that might add credence to your anti-vaccination stance, even though you claim to be open minded. Just throw it out there and let others do the work to check its veracity. What do you care. Grah is exactly the same.

The article didn't just deny the rumour. It explained his absence. He was out and about during the period he was supposedly seriously ill. But who didn't give any evidence is those who put the rumour out there. They know that all they have to do is put out anything that is anti-vaccine without any supporting evidence and there  will be thousands of cretins willing to regurgitate the rumour further in the community.

You think labelling something a rumour obviates you from any responsibility regarding any consequences that might ensue? And borrowing Cynic's thesaurus to come up with alternative words doesn't impress.


----------



## cynic (11 November 2021)

I am at a loss for words! 

Maybe it's because somebody borrowed my thesaurus!!


----------



## wayneL (11 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> What difference does that make? Do you post every rumour you hear, even when applying just a minuscule of investigation would tell you it is false? When it comes to covid vaccines, you do obviously, as you are willing to grasp at anything that might add credence to your anti-vaccination stance, even though you claim to be open minded. Just throw it out there and let others do the work to check its veracity. What do you care. Grah is exactly the same.
> 
> The article didn't just deny the rumour. It explained his absence. He was out and about during the period he was supposedly seriously ill. But who didn't give any evidence is those who put the rumour out there. They know that all they have to do is put out anything that is anti-vaccine without any supporting evidence and there  will be thousands of cretins willing to regurgitate the rumour further in the community.
> 
> You think labelling something a rumour obviates you from any responsibility regarding any consequences that might ensue? And borrowing Cynic's thesaurus to come up with alternative words doesn't impress.



As both a point of order and also to illustrate how stupidly asinine (tautology intentional to intensify my point) your categorising me as anti-vaccination, alarm me to illustrate how freaking unintelligent you are (the redundancy again intentional).

I am not anti-vaccination. as I have put it out numerous times on this forum I have had the whole gamut of vaccinations... Tetanus, cholera, smallpox, TB, Yellow fever, etc.

in fact as I have detailed, once again on this forum, I have recently had a tetanus booster... A vaccination.

Once again as I have detailed on this forum I am not actually against a vaccinating against sars-cov-2.

if I thought such a vaccination was both effective and safe, then get me in farking line, bro and stick that sh¹t in my arm.

However I have developed a hypothesis about the current crop of vaccines which will evolve around a number of points.

1/ they are being used under emergency approval or whatever the hell its called. In other words there is no long-term safety and efficacy data to support full FDA/TGA approval.

2/ hey do not appear to operate like a normal vaccine. That do not seem to offer genuine immunity such as a tuberculosis or smallpox vaccine does. Therefore, I question whether these could be rightly termed as vaccines.

3/ That there are an enormous number of adverse effects and injuries from these injections is incontrovertible, whether or not the Newsom rumour is true or false.

4/ The risk/benefit ratio does not appear to be adequately quantified. I believe that the current injections *may indeed be a good risk/benefit proposition for the elderly, morbidly obese, and those with comorbidities. however I do not believe the risk/benefit ratio adds up for normal healthy people of young and middle age.

These can other factors are making me want to sit back and wait, either to be proven wrong or for a superior comma or indeed genuine vaccine to appear.

Science operates, at least in the latter part of the scientific process, to attempt to disprove one's hypothesis. Therefore excuse farking me for putting up issues for discussion, debate and allowing myself to disproved or verified.

Anything else, as we have seen with the climate change debate and indeed this vaccine debate is nothing more than a cultish following of the "approved" narrative.

Antivax??? Pfffft. Go straight to Hell, brownshirt.


----------



## wayneL (11 November 2021)

cynic said:


> I am at a loss for words!
> 
> Maybe it's because somebody borrowed my thesaurus!!



And what a low grade pathetic pejorative by the likes of this @bellanuit clown, Cynic.

It is really scraping the bottom of the barrel to criticize someone for using a vocabulary greater than 250 words (my sometimes dodgy grammar, notwithstanding)


----------



## IFocus (11 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Antivax??? Pfffft. Go straight to Hell, brownshirt.





Really uncalled for, you are against the vaccine, I believe your term is hoisted with your own petard or some thing.


----------



## wayneL (11 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> Really uncalled for, you are against the vaccine, I believe your term is hoisted with your own petard or some thing.



Read Bellanuit's posts, brownshirt.


----------



## bellenuit (11 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> I am not anti-vaccination.




If you were not against the Covid vaccine, one would expect you to now and again post something that shows a positive side to it. Yet all we get are constant negative posts, usually based on unfounded rumours that are easily proven false. The most recent being a prime example. You may protest all you like about being labeled a covid anti-vaxxer, but we are not stupid and can see a fake a mile away. It is interesting that those vaccine related posts from others on ASF that you click like to are usually from the known anti-vaxxers here, and they also happen to be the people who reciprocate to your posts. It is also not without coincidence that much of your material is from known anti-vaccine sites, not those that may show some intelligent scepticism to the vaccines, but those directed at the most gullible brain dead followers where they can preach their made up garbage without fear of being questioned or taken to task.

Your hypocrisy is obvious. Live with it.


----------



## cynic (12 November 2021)

Incidentally, it may interest some here to know, that vaccine sceptics are a lot harder to find these days.

Courtesy of the CDC's redefinition, of the word "vaccine", many former  sceptics, have been, "literally" transformed into daily self vaccinators,


----------



## moXJO (12 November 2021)

Anyone know much about the falsified data from one of pfizers subcontractors? 

As in: was it not really a big deal...


----------



## cynic (12 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Anyone know much about the falsified data from one of pfizers subcontractors?
> 
> As in: was it not really a big deal...



Oh really!?

As if the vassals of the sanctified prophet(eer) would be capable of such a despicably sacrilegious act!!


----------



## rederob (12 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> if I thought such a vaccination was both effective and safe, then get me in farking line, bro and stick that sh¹t in my arm.



You have a consistent theme of not believing in scientific evidence.


wayneL said:


> However I have developed a hypothesis about the current crop of vaccines which will evolve around a number of points.



No, you have a number of "excuses" that justify your baseless beliefs, as you are not proposing another explanation for the effectiveness of vaccines (which is what an hypothesis is about).


wayneL said:


> 1/ they are being used under emergency approval or whatever the hell its called. In other words there is no long-term safety and efficacy data to support full FDA/TGA approval.



Your first *excuse*.


wayneL said:


> 2/ hey do not appear to operate like a normal vaccine. That do not seem to offer genuine immunity such as a tuberculosis or smallpox vaccine does. Therefore, I question whether these could be rightly termed as vaccines.



They work the same as jabs for the flu which don't guarantee immunity but reduce severe outcomes.  So excuse #2 is just based on ignorance.


wayneL said:


> 3/ That there are an enormous number of adverse effects and injuries from these injections is incontrovertible, whether or not the Newsom rumour is true or false.



Very few are classified as *serious*, and given that we are well into the billions of total global vaccinations it is unlikely there is evidence that suggests otherwise.  Thus excuse #3 reflects an inability to use or understand data.


wayneL said:


> 4/ The risk/benefit ratio does not appear to be adequately quantified. I believe that the current injections *may indeed be a good risk/benefit proposition for the elderly, morbidly obese, and those with comorbidities. however I do not believe the risk/benefit ratio adds up for normal healthy people of young and middle age.



Excuse #4 also based on ignorance as ATAGI has that role and has made some unpopular recommendations affecting take up earlier in the year.  Here's an example from ATAGI that shows you just make up things:








wayneL said:


> These can other factors are making me want to sit back and wait, either to be proven wrong or for a superior comma or indeed genuine vaccine to appear.



Good, I don't have to debunk further ignorance!


wayneL said:


> Science operates, at least in the latter part of the scientific process, to attempt to disprove one's hypothesis. Therefore excuse farking me for putting up issues for discussion, debate and allowing myself to disproved or verified.



Science seeks explanations, but you seem to only have *excuses*.


wayneL said:


> Anything else, as we have seen with the climate change debate and indeed this vaccine debate is nothing more than a cultish following of the "approved" narrative.



This is your clinching excuse as *science is not a narrative*.  When people are unable to show their views are credible they disparage the basis of their ignorance.


----------



## rederob (12 November 2021)

cynic said:


> Incidentally, it may interest some here to know, that vaccine sceptics are a lot harder to find these days.
> 
> Courtesy of the CDC's redefinition, of the word "vaccine", many former  sceptics, have been, "literally" transformed into daily self vaccinators,



Saying something does not make it true.  I suspect from your many posts that you don't know what you are talking about, and will indulge in utter nonsense to insist you have made a valid statement.

The CDC’s definition changed from “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” to  “*a preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases*.”
A simple reason is that immunity in science cannot be 100% so the immune response to many vaccines cannot guarantee you will never be infected.  Accordingly, the CDC now states that vaccines provide "*protection*" as that is the role of an immune response.


----------



## cynic (12 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Saying something does not make it true.  I suspect from your many posts that you don't know what you are talking about, and will indulge in utter nonsense to insist you have made a valid statement.
> 
> The CDC’s definition changed from “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” to  “*a preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases*.”
> A simple reason is that immunity in science cannot be 100% so the immune response to many vaccines cannot guarantee you will never be infected.  Accordingly, the CDC now states that vaccines provide "*protection*" as that is the role of an immune response.



An even simpler reason is that a change needed to be made to encompass some newly designed products that would otherwise fail to satisfy the former "vaccine" definition!

Anyway, thankyou for taking the time to confirm this for me.


----------



## rederob (12 November 2021)

cynic said:


> An even simpler reason is that a change needed to be made to encompass some newly designed products that would otherwise fail to satisfy the former "vaccine" definition!
> 
> Anyway, thankyou for taking the time to confirm this for me.



Totally false.  You and @wayneL make up stuff on a regular basis without ever being able to show how it could be credible.  It's like watching a sideshow of clowns.


----------



## IFocus (12 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Read Bellanuit's posts, brownshirt.





Your continued aggression on the site calling posters brownshirt is akin to little boy school yard bully behaviour, really its a bad look at best but I don't see the point as it has no relevance.


----------



## cynic (12 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Totally false.  You and @wayneL make up stuff on a regular basis without ever being able to show how it could be credible.  It's like watching a sideshow of clowns.



Just because someone happens to view things from a different perspective to yourself, doesn't entitle you to make such accusations.

But I do, again, thank you for confirming the truth of what I posted.


----------



## rederob (12 November 2021)

cynic said:


> Just because someone happens to view things from a different perspective to yourself, doesn't entitle you to make such accusations.
> 
> But I do, again, thank you for confirming the truth of what I posted.



It's based on what the CDC said and did so it cannot be an "accusation".
You could at least try to find things out before making things up to suit yourself.
Then you console yourself by *lying *when you state that I confirm what you say when instead I stated the complete opposite.
How about some honesty if you cannot otherwise substantiate what you say.


----------



## cynic (12 November 2021)

rederob said:


> It's based on what the CDC said and did so it cannot be an "accusation".
> You could at least try to find things out before making things up to suit yourself.
> Then you console yourself by *lying *when you state that I confirm what you say when instead I stated the complete opposite.
> How about some honesty if you cannot otherwise substantiate what you say.



No! It was you (not the CDC) who levelled an accusation against myself and another!!


----------



## Humid (12 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> Your continued aggression on the site calling posters brownshirt is akin to little boy school yard bully behaviour, really its a bad look at best but I don't see the point as it has no relevance.




It dawned on me a while back
classic small mans syndrome.....I read his posts in a jockey voice


----------



## rederob (12 November 2021)

cynic said:


> No! It was you (not the CDC) who levelled an accusation against myself and another!!



You are proven incompetent. 
I clearly based my comments on *what the CDC said and did*, so it was definitely *not *my perspective, as you claimed.
I realise you do not understand this, but lying about what I said is not a good look.
You propensity for nonsense is puerile.


----------



## cynic (12 November 2021)

rederob said:


> You are proven incompetent.
> I clearly based my comments on *what the CDC said and did*, so it was definitely *not *my perspective, as you claimed.
> I realise you do not understand this, but lying about what I said is not a good look.
> You propensity for nonsense is puerile.



And you've done it again!!

The CDC has not accused me of anything!

I am doubtful that they are even aware of my existence.


----------



## rederob (12 November 2021)

cynic said:


> And you've done it again!!
> 
> The CDC has not accused me of anything!
> 
> I am doubtful that they are even aware of my existence.



You made successive statements which are *false*, based on what the CDC said and did.
The fact I pointed this out or @Joe Blow does not change your false comment.

Here's your first false claim claim:


cynic said:


> Courtesy of the CDC's redefinition, of the word "vaccine", many former sceptics, have been, "literally" transformed into daily self vaccinators,



The CDC's new definition effected no such *transformation*.

Here's your next false claim:


cynic said:


> An even simpler reason is that a change needed to be made to encompass some newly designed products that would otherwise fail to satisfy the former "vaccine" definition!



The new definition only changed to reflect that a vaccine will "*stimulate the body’s immune response" *and specifically *removed *the term "product" which you base your sense on. 

After this you reverted to type and lied.
All you needed to do was show that your comments were credible.  Instead you did what you do every time:


rederob said:


> I suspect from your many posts that you don't know what you are talking about, and will indulge in utter nonsense to insist you have made a valid statement.



Unless you post on topic, I won't be responding.


----------



## cynic (12 November 2021)

rederob said:


> You made successive statements which are *false*, based on what the CDC said and did.
> The fact I pointed this out or @Joe Blow does not change your false comment.
> 
> Here's your first false claim claim:
> ...



Oh rederob, dependable as ever ! You never fail to disappoint!!

https://technofog.substack.com/p/cdc-emails-our-definition-of-vaccine?justPublished=true

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21527855/

You'll have to forgive my delay in replying, I was a little too busy, self administering my oral "vaccination" (as per CDC's redefinition) against numerous infectious diseases, including COVID19!!!


----------



## rederob (12 November 2021)

cynic said:


> Oh rederob, dependable as ever ! You never fail to disappoint!!
> 
> https://technofog.substack.com/p/cdc-emails-our-definition-of-vaccine?justPublished=true
> 
> ...



Thank you.
Your link proves the points I made but none of yours.
Appreciated.


----------



## moXJO (12 November 2021)

Anyway...
Pfizer 3rd booster shots looking like they may only last 9-10 months. Yep Pfizer hit the jackpot.


----------



## IFocus (12 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Anyway...
> Pfizer 3rd booster shots looking like they may only last 9-10 months. Yep Pfizer hit the jackpot.





I'd be surprised if they lasted that long.


----------



## basilio (15 November 2021)

Austria is ordering a nation wide lockdown of unvaccinated people as COVID infections explode. The Far Right Freedom party in Austria has successfully undermined vaccination to the point that only 65% of people are jabbed.  So COVID is having a clear run.









						Austria brings back COVID-19 lockdown, this time for the unvaccinated
					

Austria is placing millions of people not fully vaccinated against the coronavirus in lockdown as of Monday to deal with a surge in infections to record levels and the growing strain on intensive-care units, the government said on Sunday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## sptrawler (19 November 2021)

AZ back in the news.








						AstraZeneca unveils antibody treatment, preventative shot for those who can’t get vaccinated
					

The company said its drug offered hope to those who can’t receive COVID-19 vaccines, such as cancer patients, organ transplant recipients and those with weak immune systems.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
*London: *AstraZeneca has unveiled a new antibody injection that it says works as both a COVID-19 preventative and treatment, and can be used on patients with severely weakened immune systems.

The monoclonal drug, AZD7442, is derived from antibodies or B cells from people who have recovered from COVID-19 and is fortified with synthetic or manufactured antibodies that last almost three times a long as human ones.
Because the treatment is antibody-based, it doesn’t involve the risk of inducing an anaphylactic reaction like vaccines can. The company said the treatment could be effective for up to 12 months and has not produced any adverse side effects in clinical trials.
AstraZeneca said it carried out two separate trials called PROVENT and TACKLE.

Results from PROVENT showed the antibody drug reduced the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 by 83 per cent.
PROVENT involved more than 5000 unvaccinated adults, almost half of them older than 60, and more than 75 per cent had significant comorbidities.

TACKLE involved around 900 adults who had developed a mild to moderate case of COVID-19 within seven days.
AstraZeneca said the drug reduced the risk of severe disease and death by 77 per cent, with just seven cases of severe disease and death arising in the group given the drug compared to the 18 cases that occurred in the group given a placebo.
Pascal Soriot, CEO of AstraZeneca, said the data showed the drug offered protection for six months and could last for 12 months, but the company needed a further six months of results to confirm this.

Professor Hugh Montgomery, from University College London, said the data was “very, very exciting” for those who could not get vaccinated because their bodies could not mount an antibody response to vaccines.

He said this included his sister, who is undergoing chemotherapy.

“As we’ve lifted our lockdown she’s become a prisoner in her house and I have many friends too, one who for 20 months has been unable to see her children who are at university because she cannot be protected by the vaccine,” he said.
He said the drug would give protection to a huge range of people including organ transplant recipients, cancer patients, those with auto-immune diseases, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis as well as those with incompetent immune systems.

“We are seeing those now hitting hospitals and intensive care units – increasing numbers of people who’ve been double vaccinated and even boosted who are ending up reaching intensive care,” he said.

“Now we have something we can offer you.”

He said it was also good news that the drug did not induce any adverse side effects.
“This is a very safe, highly effective treatment or intervention,” he said.

One drawback was that the drug was more complicated to make than AstraZeneca’s vaccine, which has been used worldwide although suffered serious confidence issues in many countries, including Australia, after it caused fatal blood clots in a very small number of recipients
AstraZeneca sold its vaccine at cost but company executive Iskra Reic said the antibody drug would be sold at an affordable price subject to approvals.

“We are looking at a commercial pricing strategy, but at the end of the day our premium objective is to ensure broad access,” she said.


----------



## basilio (22 November 2021)

A doctors view on unvaccinated people coming down with COVID,

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin​Anonymous

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had their jab

In hospital, Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated. The man in his 20s who had always watched what he ate, worked out in the gym, was too healthy to ever catch Covid badly. The 48-year-old who never got round to making the appointment.

The person in their 50s whose friend had side-effects. The woman who wanted to wait for more evidence. The young pregnant lady worried about the effect on her baby.

The 60-year-old, brought to hospital with oxygen saturations of 70% by the ambulance that he initially called for his partner, who had died by the time it arrived; both believed that the drug companies bribed the government to get the vaccine approved.

All severely ill with Covid. All unvaccinated and previously healthy. All completely avoidable.

Of course, there are people who have their vaccinations but still get sick. These people may be elderly or frail, or have underlying health problems. Those with illnesses affecting the immune system, particularly patients who have had chemotherapy for blood cancers, are especially vulnerable. Some unlucky healthy people will also end up on our general wards with Covid after being vaccinated, usually needing a modest amount of oxygen for a few days.

But the story is different on our intensive care unit. Here, the patient population consists of a few vulnerable people with severe underlying health problems and a majority of fit, healthy, younger people unvaccinated by choice. Watching the mix of patients coming in with Covid, it feels to me like hardly anybody has been vaccinated nowadays; of course, this is because the people that have been vaccinated are getting on with their lives at home. If everyone got vaccinated, hospitals would be under much less pressure; this is beyond debate. Your wait for your clinic appointment/operation/diagnostic test/A&E department would be shorter. Your ambulance would arrive sooner. Reports of the pressure on the NHS are not exaggerated, I promise you.









						ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin | Anonymous
					

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had jab, says an NHS consultant




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (22 November 2021)

One Nation leader Pauline Hansen introduced a bill to the Senate complaining about vaccine discrimination. 
Yep- the same politician who wanted autistic children taken out of classrooms, wants no immigration from Muslim countries,  was against same sex marriage is fighting for the rights of anti vaxxers. 

Jacqui Lambie blasted Pauline with both barrels reloaded and did it again. (Figuratively of course ..)
Powerful analysis and one reason why I think Jacqui Lambie is a down to earth  Independent politician well worth supporting in the Senate.









						Watch the full speech: Jacqui Lambie blasts Pauline Hanson’s vaccine discrimination bill – video
					

In ferocious speech, Lambie says people have a right to choose but not a right to put vulnerable people at risk




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wabullfrog (22 November 2021)

basilio said:


> Austria is ordering a nation wide lockdown of unvaccinated people as COVID infections explode. The Far Right Freedom party in Austria has successfully undermined vaccination to the point that only 65% of people are jabbed.  So COVID is having a clear run.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Have now gone a step further.









						Austria enters nationwide lockdown to fight soaring cases
					

Austria powers down public life as its fourth national COVID-19 lockdown begins, making it the first western European country to reimpose the drastic and unpopular measure this autumn in the face of surging coronavirus infections.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## DB008 (22 November 2021)

Great article on Covid-19 variants


Is Delta the last Covid ‘super variant’?​
Since it was first detected in India in December 2020, the Delta variant of Sars-CoV-2 has become so ubiquitous that it would be easy to assume that the once-rapid evolution of the virus has been replaced by a state of quiescence. According to the World Health Organization, 99.5% of all Covid-19 genomic sequences reported to public databases are now Delta.​​In recent weeks, concerns have emerged that the use of new antiviral pills, in particular Merck’s molnupiravir, could contribute to this by actively encouraging Sars-CoV-2 to evolve. Molnupiravir works by interfering with the virus’s ability to replicate, littering its genome with mutations until it can no longer reproduce. Some virologists have argued that if any of these viral mutants survive and spread to others, it could theoretically spur the rise of new variants. Others acknowledge that while this is worth monitoring, it is not enough of a concern to deny severely ill patients a potentially life saving drug.​
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/is-delta-the-last-covid-super-variant​
.


----------



## wayneL (23 November 2021)

Just following da science bruhs






						Abstract 10712: Mrna COVID Vaccines Dramatically Increase Endothelial Inflammatory Markers and ACS Risk as Measured by the PULS Cardiac Test: a Warning
					

Our group has been using the PLUS Cardiac Test (GD Biosciences, Inc, Irvine, CA) a clinically validated measurement of multiple protein biomarkers which generates a score predicting the 5 yr risk (pe



					www.ahajournals.org


----------



## basilio (25 November 2021)

Could only happen in Greece ?

Fake vaccination certificates​In an attempt to curtail the current spike, the conservative government led by PM Mitsotakis has imposed new, stricter measures, limiting access to cafes, restaurants, banks, and certain state services for those who are unvaccinated or do not have a negative coronavirus test.

But according to a story in To Vima, one of the country’s principal outlets, Greeks have been seeking a way to circumvent the measures, mostly by purchasing fake vaccination certificates. The investigation claims that more than 100,000 citizens bribed their way to a forged pass.

*The vaccine sceptics among them went even further. According to To Vima’s findings published in its Sunday edition, some have approached the doctors with a request to be jabbed with bacteriostatic water and offered up to 400 euros for the favour.

However, the doctors gave them the real vaccine instead.

The recipients of the jab they thought was fake only became suspicious once they started exhibiting side effects of proper vaccination, such as the common low-grade fever.

Now, they are in a double bind: although they can sue the doctors for malpractice, they would have to admit to committing bribery, the story claims.*









						How a fake jabs probe highlights Greece's deep vaccine scepticism
					

“This is a nation and a culture where doubt is sewn into everything, including the questioning of authority and science, in order to maintain the beliefs they already have.” #UncoveringEurope




					www.euronews.com


----------



## bellenuit (27 November 2021)

Vaccines reduce Covid transmission by 40%: WHO​








						Vaccines reduce Covid transmission by 40%: WHO
					

Covid vaccines reduce transmission of the dominant Delta variant by about 40 percent, the WHO said Wednesday, warning that people were falling into a false sense of security concerning jabs.




					www.france24.com


----------



## sptrawler (27 November 2021)

Only 60% of Western Australians are vaccinated, is the far right to blame?
And if not, why not? They should be, it is a golden opportunity.


----------



## finicky (27 November 2021)

I haven't taken it yet and have been hanging out for Novavax, definitely going to try to dodge mRNA forms anyway. Would prefer to opt for post infection anti-viral treatments: ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, monoclonal antibodies (whatever they are) and others that are coming online - but not in Australia so far of course, with our TGA.
Anyway I tend to trust experts more who stick their necks out and challenge the orthodox estabishment; the anti-heroes who stand in contrast to the vileness of the A.Fauci types. 
This guy has credibility for me and has increased my vaccine 'hesitancy'. Youtube will probably squash him, the video has already been flagged and I guess is being reviewed by experts who know we shouldn't be subjected to confusing commentary. Watch whike you can.


----------



## IFocus (27 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Only 60% of Western Australians are vaccinated, is the far right to blame?
> And if not, why not? They should be, it is a golden opportunity.


----------



## rederob (27 November 2021)

finicky said:


> I haven't taken it yet and have been hanging out for Novavax, definitely going to try to dodge mRNA forms anyway. Would prefer to opt for post infection anti-viral treatments: ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, monoclonal antibodies (whatever they are) and others that are coming online - but not in Australia so far of course, with our TGA.
> Anyway I tend to trust experts more who stick their necks out and challenge the orthodox estabishment; the anti-heroes who stand in contrast to the vileness of the A.Fauci types.
> This guy has credibility for me and has increased my vaccine 'hesitancy'. Youtube will probably squash him, the video has already been flagged and I guess is being reviewed by experts who know we shouldn't be subjected to confusing commentary. Watch whike you can.




This guy is a know nothing abuser of data.  From around the 8:30 point he quotes numbers of deaths for young people which are consistent with annual American death rates.  However he did not tell you, for example, that covid has lead to death rates among people aged 25-44 which were above normal for much of the year, as deaths among people this young are generally low.  After that he degenerated into utter nonsense as last year covid was the 3rd major cause of death, at a rate over 10 times greater than dying from gunshot:




There are actual experts in the many fields that this guy covered, and if you choose him over them then you are indicative of the many who trust social media to guide your life.
This ignoramus also forgets that well over 3B doses of vaccines jabs to date are *not *mRNA based.


----------



## sptrawler (27 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> View attachment 133467



That has certainly picked up recently, last time I checked we were in the low 50% fully vaccinated, the mandatory jab must have picked it up.


----------



## Belli (28 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That has certainly picked up recently, last time I checked we were in the low 50% fully vaccinated, the mandatory jab must have picked it up.




The patchiness of vaccination rates is an issue though.  Granted WA, as well as QLD, have logistic issues due to the large area involved but the health authorities would probably be concerned of low rates of vaccinations is certain areas.  The health facilities in many areas would be unlikely to cope should there be a large enough outbreak.  From what I have read WA has the lowest number of ICU beds per 100,000 people in Australia.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2021)

Belli said:


> The patchiness of vaccination rates is an issue though.  Granted WA, as well as QLD, have logistic issues due to the large area involved but the health authorities would probably be concerned of low rates of vaccinations is certain areas.  The health facilities in many areas would be unlikely to cope should there be a large enough outbreak.  From what I have read WA has the lowest number of ICU beds per 100,000 people in Australia.



That would probably be true, there was a large spend on hospitals in the last 10 years, but the population has increased rapidly also.


----------



## IFocus (28 November 2021)

Belli said:


> The patchiness of vaccination rates is an issue though.  Granted WA, as well as QLD, have logistic issues due to the large area involved but the health authorities would probably be concerned of low rates of vaccinations is certain areas.  The health facilities in many areas would be unlikely to cope should there be a large enough outbreak.  From what I have read WA has the lowest number of ICU beds per 100,000 people in Australia.






The indigenous  were spooked by misinformation from some religious group (that's the rumour) so massive catch-up in those communities is happening now hopefully they will get the rates up.

When NSW was in full swing with their out break you couldn't get Pfizer at most of the clinics here as supply was directed to NSW so that window was missed and hence now the delay.

The other factor is if you not needing to enter or leave WA you wouldn't know there was a pandemic happening life is completely normal except the local economy is going gang busters, has been for some time so some don't see the need for vax.

But it is coming (COVID) and we will all likely get it sooner of later.


----------



## Belli (28 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> But it is coming (COVID) and we will all likely get it sooner of later.




This gentleman is forthright in his views on that issue - amongst others matters.


----------



## grah33 (29 November 2021)

NT using military to put infectious and those in contact into camps . so much for human rights

My young friend with horrible injection side effects: chest pains left and right, and leg in terrible pain couldn't walk.  And his father took 3 weeks to recover . The mother doesn't want to take the vaccine


----------



## bellenuit (29 November 2021)

grah33 said:


> NT using military to put infectious and those in contact into camps . so much for human rights












						An Outback Conspiracy
					

Free Thought Lives




					quillette.com
				




_My young friend with horrible injection side effects: chest pains left and right, and leg in terrible pain couldn't walk._

Who has determined that these are side effects of the vaccine?


----------



## cynic (29 November 2021)

Covid seems to always be considered guilty until proven innocent, whereas the covid vaccines, are always considered innocent until proven guilty.

What an enlightened approach to health care!!


----------



## bellenuit (29 November 2021)

cynic said:


> Covid seems to always be considered guilty until proven innocent, whereas the covid vaccines, are always considered innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> What an enlightened approach to health care!!




If that is a response to my post, it is as inane as almost everything else you post.

There was no claim by me that Covid caused the side effects, nor any claim by me that the vaccine didn't cause them. Just a question as to who determined that the vaccine was the cause, as was asserted by Grah's friend. An enlightened approach to health care is to establish facts before making assertions or if assertions are made, to qualify them.

Nobody in the medical profession is saying that there are never side effects to taking the vaccine. Sometimes there are none (the experience of everyone I personally know who have taken the vaccine) and other times there will be mild to severe side effects.


----------



## cynic (29 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> If that is a response to my post, it is as inane as almost everything else you post.
> 
> There was no claim that Covid caused the side effects, nor any claim that the vaccine didn't cause them. Just a question as to who determined that the vaccine was the cause, as was asserted by Grah's friend. An enlightened approach to health care is to establish facts before making assertions or if assertions are made, to qualify them.



It is difficult not to notice the haste with which deaths, and hospitalisations, are declared as covid caused, whereas the hospitalisations, or deaths, of the recently vaccinated are somehow seen as coincidental, until such time as causation can be conclusively demonstrated.


----------



## Belli (30 November 2021)

cynic said:


> It is difficult not to notice the haste with which deaths, and hospitalisations, are declared as covid caused, whereas the hospitalisations, or deaths, of the recently vaccinated are somehow seen as coincidental, until such time as causation can be conclusively demonstrated.




This gives the hint as to the why regarding admissions with a diagnosis of Covid.









						COVID-19 testing
					

Learn about COVID-19 testing, including when to get tested, what test you should use and what to do if you test positive to COVID-19.




					www.healthdirect.gov.au
				




How is COVID-19 diagnosed?​
Your doctor (GP), or staff at a testing clinic or hospital emergency department will take swabs from the back of your nose and throat to diagnose your illness. This is called a PCR (polymerase chain reaction) test. Swabs and fluid are sent to public health laboratories for testing for COVID-19.

This is the protocol for determining causes of death in NSW which is similar to other jurisdictions.



			https://www1.health.nsw.gov.au/pds/ActivePDSDocuments/PD2021_029.pdf
		


No mysteries on the matter exist.

Forgot to mention that presently ICD-10 is used for classification.  A draft of ICD-11 recently issued by the WHO in the middle of this year is under consideration by the AIHW.









						International Classification of Diseases revision - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare
					

International Classification of Diseases revision page on the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare website




					www.aihw.gov.au
				




The objectives of the ICD revision process are to:

revise the ICD classification in line with scientific advances, to serve multiple purposes including *mortality and morbidity statistics* as well as clinical use in primary care, specialty care and research
continue to serve as an international standard in multiple languages and settings to allow for comparable data
link with computerised health information systems (directly use standard terminologies and other health informatics applications to be “electronic health application ready”).


----------



## rederob (30 November 2021)

cynic said:


> Covid seems to always be considered guilty until proven innocent, whereas the covid vaccines, are always considered innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> What an enlightened approach to health care!!



As @Belli points out, health care has nothing to do with how some people take delight in misinterpreting information and liking conspiracies.

The average person recognises that a disease is rarely beneficial, whereas vaccinations have been proven to reduce illness and death rates for over two centuries.  Perhaps one day you might develop an enlightened approach to posting so that ignorance does not rule.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2021)

rederob said:


> As @Belli points out, health care has nothing to do with how some people take delight in misinterpreting information and liking conspiracies.
> 
> The average person recognises that a disease is rarely beneficial, whereas vaccinations have been proven to reduce illness and death rates for over two centuries.  Perhaps one day you might develop an enlightened approach to posting so that ignorance does not rule.




I agree, but for the small number of people who have serious or fatal side effects there should be some sort of compensation scheme as in other countries, since the government is virtually mandating getting a vaccine if you want to keep your job or go about your daily business without restriction.


----------



## rederob (30 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I agree, but for the small number of people who have serious or fatal side effects there should be some sort of compensation scheme as in other countries, since the government is virtually mandating getting a vaccine if you want to keep your job or go about your daily business without restriction.



I absolutely agree.
But as others have pointed out, our federal government goes after the people who can least afford anything, while foregoing billions of dollars of overpayments via JobKeeper.  So why would they care if a few people suffer after vaccination?
Maybe Scomo wants the States to be responsible  given the heavy lifting they have carried in the absence of competent leadership at the federal level.


----------



## cynic (30 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I agree, but for the small number of people who have serious or fatal side effects there should be some sort of compensation scheme as in other countries, since the government is virtually mandating getting a vaccine if you want to keep your job or go about your daily business without restriction.



FTSE compensation (and the burden of proof required to demonstrate entitlement)!!

Simply let people make their own decisions, about which medicines they want, and leave them to accept the consequences of their choice.

No amount of financial compensation will reverse death or permanent disability.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 November 2021)

cynic said:


> Simply let people make their own decisions, about which medicines they want, and leave them to accept the consequences of their choice.




Well sometimes other people have to accept the consequences of foolish decisions, like family members who get the disease passed on by other family members.


----------



## wayneL (30 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Well sometimes other people have to accept the consequences of foolish decisions, like family members who get the disease passed on by other family members.



Like the flu?


----------



## cynic (30 November 2021)

I


SirRumpole said:


> Well sometimes other people have to accept the consequences of foolish decisions, like family members who get the disease passed on by other family members.



I presume that you're suggesting that one's personal decision, as to whether or not to partake of medical treatment, can sometimes be deemed as foolishly endangering others.

If so, given the topic of this thread, I would have to conclude that you don't actually believe in the efficacy of these covid vaccines!


----------



## Investoradam (30 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Well sometimes other people have to accept the consequences of foolish decisions, like family members who get the disease passed on by other family members.



Where has the common flu gone?
The sheet irony waking up with gastro from a curry your body disagrees with or being run down with the sniffles from a big weekend is considered covid now days!

the foolish decisions in being to accepting and stupid and taking the self moral high ground to people questioning where life is going!

remember it apparently came from a man eating a bat in wuhan and if we got one jab we would have out freedom back!

not some countries will be 5 jabs on, in lock downs, travel vaccines with heavy restrictions!
Information is Ching censored and people canceled for speaking out including doctors.

the left are a product of a dumbed down society. 
vladim Lenin called them “useful idiots”


----------



## rederob (30 November 2021)

cynic said:


> I presume that you're suggesting that one's personal decision, as to whether or not to partake of medical treatment, can sometimes be deemed as foolishly endangering others.



The proof is that family members across the world have spread covid amongst themselves, leading to to serious illness and occasional death.  How is a personal decision that can do this be regarded as "sensible" when a reasonable alternative is available? 


cynic said:


> If so, given the topic of this thread, I would have to conclude that you don't actually believe in the efficacy of these covid vaccines!



You clearly don't understand what *efficacy *means!


----------



## Belli (30 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Like the flu?




Depends on whether one is considered as having a worse outcome compared with the other.

"For most people, the flu resolves on its own. But sometimes, influenza and its complications can be deadly."









						Influenza (flu) - Symptoms and causes
					






					www.mayoclinic.org
				




"Common signs and symptoms that linger over time include:

Fatigue
Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing
Cough
Joint pain
Chest pain
Memory, concentration or sleep problems
Muscle pain or headache
Fast or pounding heartbeat
Loss of smell or taste
Depression or anxiety
Fever
Dizziness when you stand
Worsened symptoms after physical or mental activities.  
Organ damage caused by COVID-19​Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can also damage many other organs, including the heart, kidneys and the brain. Organ damage may lead to health complications that linger after COVID-19 illness. In some people, lasting health effects may include long-term breathing problems, heart complications, chronic kidney impairment, stroke and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis.

Some adults and children experience multisystem inflammatory syndrome after they have had COVID-19. In this condition, some organs and tissues become severely inflamed."









						COVID-19: Long-term effects
					

Learn about the possible long-term effects of COVID-19.




					www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## bellenuit (30 November 2021)

cynic said:


> If so, given the topic of this thread, I would have to conclude that you don't actually believe in the efficacy of these covid vaccines!




Or perhaps he is just one of those individuals with a modicum of intelligence that realises that when it comes to vaccine efficacy, it is not just two numbers, 0% and 100%, but all values in between. Such simple vaccine understanding that seems completely beyond you. And of course he may also be considerate of those who for various reasons, aren't allowed take the vaccine.


----------



## Belli (30 November 2021)

Belli said:


> This gentleman is forthright in his views on that issue - amongst others matters.




Remiss of me for not mentioning Dr John Campbell is not a medical practitioner.  He holds a PhD and was a nurse educator.

As can be seem from the link below, he does have some critics which include concerns over his approach and apparent support for treatment regimes which are contrary to those of the wider health research community.





__





						Dr John Campbell, the BBC, and Ivermectin
					

Dr John Campbell is a retired nurse who has built up a considerable Youtube following with his almost daily videos on the evolving coron...




					allangmiller.blogspot.com


----------



## cynic (30 November 2021)

rederob said:


> The proof is that family members across the world have spread covid amongst themselves, leading to to serious illness and occasional death.  How is a personal decision that can do this be regarded as "sensible" when a reasonable alternative is available?
> 
> You clearly don't understand what *efficacy *means!



Please stop blaming me for your personal shortcomings.


----------



## wayneL (30 November 2021)

Belli said:


> Depends on whether one is considered as having a worse outcome compared with the other.
> 
> "For most people, the flu resolves on its own. But sometimes, influenza and its complications can be deadly."
> 
> ...



Of the people that I know that have had Covid, none have had any severe symptoms at all. And as mentioned before,there is some chance that my wife and I may have even have had it (it seems that it is impossible to test for that here in WA however).

While mindful that I know far more people that have been injected than have actually had covid, I know 2 people get have been severely incapacitated, and quite a few that have had severe reactions with ongoing health implications.

Anecdotal of course but it seems that the most sensible categorisation of covid is as a medium flu.









						Covid versus the flu, revisited
					

The legitimacy of comparing covid-19 and "the flu" has been a heatedly debated topic during the current pandemic.




					swprs.org


----------



## Belli (30 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Of the people that I know that have had Covid, none have had any severe symptoms at all.




Local experience doesn't reflect a wider one.  I live in Canberra and don't know the 7 patients in hospital (5 in ICU) but the data is Covid has caused their admission and treatment requirements. Nor do I know the patients in other States who are in hospital due to Covid.









						Coronavirus (COVID-19) case numbers and statistics
					

This page provides updates about the current situation, latest case numbers and related information. It is updated every day by 9 pm AEST and reflects the previous 24 hours.




					www.health.gov.au
				













wayneL said:


> Anecdotal of course but it seems that the most sensible categorisation of covid is as a medium flu.





Feel free to contact John Hopkins to debate that issue.









						COVID-19 vs. the Flu
					






					www.hopkinsmedicine.org


----------



## basilio (30 November 2021)

There is now conservation about bringing  COVID vaccine booster shots in earlier than 6 months.
Basically  anytime now.

It can only help.









						A panel of leading Australian pandemic experts convened to discuss Omicron — here's what they said
					

A network of independent Australian experts established in the wake of the pandemic recommends bringing COVID-19 vaccine boosters forward four months in response to the Omicron variant.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (30 November 2021)

basilio said:


> There is now conservation about bringing  COVID vaccine booster shots in earlier than 6 months.
> Basically  anytime now.
> 
> It can only help.
> ...



Seems a bit stupid given that we don't know if vaccines will stop omicron. In one and a half to two weeks we should have a clearer picture.


----------



## wayneL (30 November 2021)

Belli said:


> Local experience doesn't reflect a wider one.  I live in Canberra and don't know the 7 patients in hospital (5 in ICU) but the data is Covid has caused their admission and treatment requirements. Nor do I know the patients in other States who are in hospital due to Covid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Superfluous post, road, seeing as I pretty much made those caveats by self.

I'm not personally qualified to debate John Hopkins on these matters, so defer others who mate respectfully have those discussions, such as the link I have posted and others.

Interestingly I do have in my client list those who are qualified to debate such matters. It's pretty evenly split.

That makes it hard for the likes of me and you, considering my neutrality and your obvious confirmation bias


----------



## basilio (30 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Seems a bit stupid given that we don't know if vaccines will stop omicron. In one and a half to two weeks we should have a clearer picture.




I think they are pretty sure it won't  necessarily stop infection.  I believe the value lies in reducing the effect of the illness.


----------



## moXJO (1 December 2021)

basilio said:


> I think they are pretty sure it won't  necessarily stop infection.  I believe the value lies in reducing the effect of the illness.



We don't even know that at this stage. By next week we should have a better idea.


----------



## rederob (1 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Covid versus the flu, revisited
> 
> 
> The legitimacy of comparing covid-19 and "the flu" has been a heatedly debated topic during the current pandemic.
> ...



Yet another link to pseudoscience .
SPR has no scientific credibility and the idea you proliferate about covid being somewhat comparable to the flu has no legitimacy in public health arenas.
We should not be surprised by this as your ideas relating to climate change seem to have been spawned from believing people who also have a track record of misrepresentation and manipulation.  
Science can rely on billions of individual data records to show that covid is orders of magnitude more severe than the flu, and does not need to seek anecdote from the antipodes.


----------



## cynic (1 December 2021)

In this disinformation age, I have found that direct experience, and other's accounts (despite being second, and sometimes third, hand) of same, far more dependable than the propaganda mediums our society has brainwashed us into reliance upon.


----------



## rederob (1 December 2021)

cynic said:


> In this disinformation age, I have found that direct experience, and other's accounts (despite being second, and sometimes third, hand) of same, far more dependable than the propaganda mediums our society has brainwashed us into reliance upon.



The late 20th century became the *information *age when analog moved to digital from the 1980s. 
If you prefer to believe that some anecdotal information is superior to billions of records then you belong to certain class of persons.  They feed from each other's anecdotes to create personal world views which defy reality, such as a flat earth, no holocaust or moon landing.  
There is this thing called "evidence" which rational people rely on to make decisions.  
So when you, and in this case I mean *YOU *@cynic, continue to fail to show what you claim is true, then it's due to not presenting what is necessary to be credible.


----------



## cynic (1 December 2021)

rederob said:


> The late 20th century became the *information *age when analog moved to digital from the 1980s.
> If you prefer to believe that some anecdotal information is superior to billions of records then you belong to certain class of persons.  They feed from each other's anecdotes to create personal world views which defy reality, such as a flat earth, no holocaust or moon landing.
> There is this thing called "evidence" which rational people rely on to make decisions.
> So when you, and in this case I mean *YOU *@cynic, continue to fail to show what you claim is true, then it's due to not presenting what is necessary to be credible.



Neither you, nor your favoured propagandists, have the right of dictatorship, over anyone's (other than your own), experience of reality!


----------



## rederob (1 December 2021)

cynic said:


> Neither you, nor your favoured propagandists, have the right of dictatorship, over anyone's (other than your own), experience of reality!



Medical science is not about *your experience of reality!*
You seldom post on topic and drift into this fantasy world of your making that you seem to need to drag others into.
The risk/reward benefits of vaccination are proven through tens of billions of vaccinations to date, including the billions since 2020 for covid.
If you have a different perspective you could at lest try to use credible evidence, rather than post irrelevances at ASF on such a frequent basis.


----------



## IFocus (1 December 2021)

cynic said:


> In this disinformation age, I have found that direct experience, and other's accounts (despite being second, and sometimes third, hand) of same, far more dependable than the propaganda mediums our society has brainwashed us into reliance upon.





Actually verified data has never been more publicly available, the issue I continually see is narrowed biased views being selective to suit their own closed world view the twitter world being a great example.


----------



## cynic (1 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Actually verified data has never been more publicly available, the issue I continually see is narrowed biased views being selective to suit their own closed world view the twitter world being a great example.



You call it "verified data". Please be aware that the integrity of the data depends heavily upon the integrity and competence of the collaters, custodians and reporters of same.

Please also be aware that I have been personally witness to a number of significant issues that have served to undermine the integrity of the aforereferenced processes. Hence my reason for intense scepticism!

I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, but invite those reading, to temporarily quarantine all that they think that they know, and take a fresh look at the "information" they're being fed.

Has the message been consistent ?

Does the data, when considered in totality, have any semblance of coherity?
================================================================
I might be being kept in the dark and treated like a mushroom, but, until such time, as I am witness to a clear reawakening to the importance of truth, will continue to refuse to eat the material I am being forcefully fed.

And if those eagerly volunteering for enlistment in that army of useful imbeciles, have a problem with that, all I can say is their ignorance, of the many lessons of human history, is their shortcoming, not mine!


----------



## wayneL (2 December 2021)

This is why we should be waiting. This is why there should be long term trials for any drug:


----------



## rederob (2 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> This is why we should be waiting. This is why there should be long term trials for any drug:




Another *tweet *that has zero evidence backing it.
Wonder why?
Well, that's because there is no real world data consistent with its claims.
The pseudoscience poster can't help himself!


----------



## basilio (2 December 2021)

There are natural consequences for refusing to believe COVID is* that* dangerous and/or that vaccines are unnecessary or the work of the devil/secret cabals/Bill Gates/whatever.

The challenge for the rest of us is seeing the  extra impact of these lies on top of the hundreds of thousands of deaths and illnesses already undermining our community, medical facilities and economy.









						Tennessee radio host who criticised vaccine efforts dies of Covid-19
					

Phil Valentine, 61, who sang ‘Vaxman’ Beatles parody, announced his diagnosis in July as he advised listeners to get vaccinated




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Rightwing radio host and anti-vaxxer dies of Covid
					

Dick Farrel was a vociferous critic of Dr Anthony Fauci and urged people not to get vaccinated




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Florida radio host who called himself ‘Mr Anti-Vax’ dies of Covid-19
					

Station and friends pay tribute to host Marc Bernier, who was hospitalized three weeks ago




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Defiant to the end, prominent anti-vaxx activist dies of COVID
					

In final post, Hai Shoulian rails against vaccination and virus restrictions, claims police tried to poison him: 'This is an attempt to wipe me out'




					www.timesofisrael.com
				











						Celebrity anti-vaxxers who died of COVID-19
					

Anti-vaxxers say they're 'free-thinkers', 'anti-Big Pharma, Big Media, anti-WHO/CDC'




					gulfnews.com


----------



## basilio (2 December 2021)

Russian has more than it's fair share of anti vaxxers/COVID Hoaxers.  A number of doctors who have to treat the thousands of COVID sick patients have called out the most prominent of these celebrities and politicians and asked that they visit the hospitals and see what is happening.

Russian doctors invite prominent anti-vaccine voices to visit COVID-19 hospitals​


        Comments    
             By *Euronews*               with *AFP*  •  Updated: 24/11/2021    





   A medic walks between patients with coronavirus at an ICU hospital in Volgograd.                              -                              Copyright        AP Photo/Alexandr Kulikov
Share

A group of prominent Russian doctors has invited anti-vaccine celebrities and politicians to visit hospitals treating COVID-19 patients.
Eleven leading doctors signed the open letter on Wednesday, calling on the public figures to see the effects of the virus firsthand.
The letter was addressed to a dozen of the loudest anti-vaccine voices that have spread doubts about coronavirus jabs on social media.

"We are all a bit busy at the moment and you can guess why," said Denis Protsenko, chief physician at Moscow's main hospital treating COVID-19 patients.
"But since many people are reading and listening to you, we will find time to arrange a tour of the 'red zones', intensive care and pathology departments for you."
"Maybe after that, you will change your mind and fewer people will die," the letter added.

COVID-19: 'The pandemic could be with us for many years,' WHO warns
Despite week-long 'holiday period', Russia reports record daily COVID-19 cases
Russia has registered more than 1,000 deaths from coronavirus each day for weeks, as well as record daily infections.

In total, the coronavirus task force has reported nearly 9.4 million confirmed infections and more than 267,000 COVID-19 deaths, by far the highest death toll in Europe. Some experts believe the true figure is even higher.

The spike has been blamed on low vaccination rates and lax public attitudes towards precautions. Just 37.2% of Russian adults are fully inoculated against the virus despite appeals from President Vladimir Putin.

The open letter by doctors -- *published by the state-run TASS agency* -- was addressed to celebrities who they say have fuelled vaccine hesitancy.
One of those addressed was TV personality Oskar Kutchera, who has 300,000 followers on Instagram and has openly questioned the effectiveness of the vaccines.

Others include actor Egor Beroev -- who compared vaccination certificates to the yellow stars that Jews were forced to wear in the Nazi era -- and rock star Konstantin Kintchev, who said he did not want to "live in a digital concentration camp".

Genyadny Zyuganov, the leader of Russia's Communist party that has organised protests against mandatory vaccinations, was also addressed in the letter.

COVID vaccine: Who in Europe is leading the race to herd immunity?
COVID boosters: Is the definition of 'fully vaccinated' about to change to 3 vaccine doses?
"We live in an age where the opinion of professionals in any industry can be easily dispelled by some famous person," Protsenko *said on Telegram*.
"Soon it will be two years since all my colleagues from different regions, doctors, nurses, have not left the red zone and are fighting for every patient," he added.
"It is a real war, we are losing more than a thousand people every day who have not prepared their bodies to face the deadly virus."
Protsenko added that the consequences of misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines were "scary".

"All of you who doubt the power of vaccination, argue about restrictive measures, and publicly mislead your supporters simply do not have the moral authority to ignore our open letter.

"I am sure that after visiting our red zones you will change your attitude and be on the side of medical common sense."
The Kremlin has welcomed the initiative and has labelled the signatories as "hero doctors".
"Let's hope that their authority will help at least some of these people to change their minds," said spokesperson Dmitry Peskov.









						Doctors invite anti-vaccine celebrities to visit Russia's COVID wards
					

"Since many people are reading and listening to you, we will find time to arrange a tour of the 'red zones'," the letter read.




					www.euronews.com


----------



## Investoradam (3 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Another *tweet *that has zero evidence backing it.
> Wonder why?
> Well, that's because there is no real world data consistent with its claims.
> The pseudoscience poster can't help himself!



then why are people censored or shut down when trying to bring debate or evidence to the conversation or these forced jabs?
remember 1 jab and you'll have freedom back
now they are peddling out a 5th jab and vaccination certificates, forcing people to have the jabs or loose there jobs or banned from going to the shops, events or pubs!

all from a man eating a bat in wuhan! and the useful idiots left (Vladimir Lenin terminology) politicians call any one a extreme right winger who questions this!

leftism is a product of how stupid a society has become


----------



## wayneL (3 December 2021)

It's interesting on a psychology level how @rederob feels the need to keep answering my posts and especially considering the language he uses.

Bear in mind that I have Mr rederob on ignore, so he must either log out to view my posts or have a little mole in here. Both prospects make me smirk to be honest.

I think we all know his ties to the extreme left wing of the Labor Party and connections to how they distribute propaganda.

The thing that I find interesting is that more and more, scientists are having the courage to come out from under the boot and verify much of the points that I have been making (which have in from such scientists in the first place of course).

This is evidenced by the leftist propaganda becoming even more shrill, especially from our dear friend, rederob.

I can think of much more pleasant places to live rent-free than the abyss that is rederobs mind, but it is what it is.


----------



## IFocus (5 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> *It's interesting on a psychology level* how @rederob feels the need to keep answering my posts and especially considering the language he uses.




Some self reflection may help perhaps?


----------



## wayneL (5 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Some self reflection may help perhaps?



We should *all self reflect.


----------



## rederob (5 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> It's interesting on a psychology level how @rederob feels the need to keep answering my posts and especially considering the language he uses.



I respond to a stream of nonsense posts from many at ASF.  @mullokintyre insistence that social media had no right to do what they did was the most recent example of baseless posts that are made, and he too decided to put me on ignore.   As the youth of today say, NMP.


wayneL said:


> I think we all know his ties to the extreme left wing of the Labor Party and connections to how they distribute propaganda.



I have never had a party affiliation so if that's what you think you are deluding yourself.


wayneL said:


> The thing that I find interesting is that more and more, scientists are having the courage to come out from under the boot and verify much of the points that I have been making (which have in from such scientists in the first place of course).



Oddly enough I can't find credible evidence to that effect.  On the other hand, the opposite has been true for as long as you have posted as ASF.
One of the most consistent themes of your postings has been personal invectives, as evidenced here, again.  Whatever your reason, it detracts from any and every case you have put.

On topic, your persistent use of tweets, anecdote and pseudoscience in this thread instead of medical science and hard data is curious in an age of overwhelmingly verifiable information.  Aside from that, your logic is typically missing so whatever credibility you accord your posts is like sunburn.


----------



## IFocus (6 December 2021)

A long but good read on vaccine hesitancy and its history, I was put off by it being on a Jewish site.










						Why Is There So Much Vaccine Hesitancy?
					

There has been an unprecedented amount of vaccine hesitancy for COVID vaccines. Learn what we can do to deal with this vaccine skepticism.




					www.tabletmag.com


----------



## macca (7 December 2021)

Pat Cash has his say about vaccine





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## Belli (8 December 2021)

macca said:


> Pat Cash has his say about vaccine




Wow!  I didn't know Pat Cash had gained qualifications as an immunologist.  Awesome.

I'll look forward to any paper he co-authors with this gentleman.









						Issue #86: Viruses, Vaccines and COVID-19: recruitment to the lymph nodes
					

This week in Setting it Straight Nobel Laureate Professor Peter Doherty looks at what is happening in the regional lymph nodes where the virus specific response to COVID-19 develops.




					www.doherty.edu.au


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Wow!  I didn't know Pat Cash had gained qualifications as an immunologist.  Awesome.
> 
> I'll look forward to any paper he co-authors with this gentleman.
> 
> ...



 Did you actually even watch that video? Pat had nothing to say except about his own personal experiences and makes no attempt to actually talk about immunology or virology or any of those other -ologies.

It was more of a lament that some such voices are being suppressed.


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2021)

*disability*, in relation to a person, means:



                     (c)  the presence in the body of organisms causing disease or illness; or

                     (d)  the presence in the body of organisms capable of causing disease or illness; or






__





						Disability Discrimination Act 1992
					





					www.legislation.gov.au
				




So this is in legislation. Let the lawsuits begin

But seriously, are businesses protected during a pandemic from the above? 

Does it apply to unvaccinated?


----------



## Belli (8 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Did you actually even watch that video? Pat had nothing to say except about his own personal experiences and makes no attempt to actually talk about immunology or virology or any of those other -ologies.




Why would I bother?  Did having a vaccine put him six feet under or not?



wayneL said:


> It was more of a lament that some such voices are being suppressed.




Obviously incorrect as it would seem the "lament" has been posted here for those who wish to view it otherwise it would not be available anywhere.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2021)

Perhaps a fate even worse than death


----------



## IFocus (8 December 2021)

_Virginia Nicholls_










						Mum who sparked vicious rumour Year 12 student died from Covid vaccine
					

St Pius X College student and champion swimmer Tom Van Dijk, 17, died at Sydney's Royal North Shore Hospital after suffering a cardiac arrest during a swim with his family on August 21.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> _Virginia Nicholls_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So Sarah is not suffering these symptoms then?


----------



## rederob (8 December 2021)

It's just like a  bad case of the ...


Flu?


----------



## IFocus (9 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> So Sarah is not suffering these symptoms then?





No idea what the situation is but I wouldn't take a Twitter post or Virginia Nichols word for what the issue is or the cause of, ever.


----------



## moXJO (10 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> So Sarah is not suffering these symptoms then?



It's possible. A small % of people will get side effects. Some will die from vaccines. 

Same can be said of panadol. You can get a condition where all the skin burns off you.  But low % chance to that risk ( or high if you weigh up that you are just stopping a headache or whatever).
Because of the billions of people being vaccinated we will see what seems like a lot of side effects. 

Long term though, no idea.
I think the way they work it is that you normally see negative effects in the first 2 months on average. After that the risk of something going wrong is (apparently) minuscule.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

Sounds like Moderna got the nod for the Tullamarine mRNA production facility.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...facture-mrna-vaccines-under-deal-with-moderna
From the article:
Australia may be manufacturing mRNA vaccines for Covid-19 and other diseases by 2024 under an in-principle agreement struck with pharmaceutical giant Moderna.

Scott Morrison will announce on Tuesday that under the deal a new sovereign vaccine manufacturing facility will be built in Victoria to produce pandemic and non-pandemic respiratory vaccines, including potential flu vaccines.

The long-term “strategic partnership” between the federal government, Victorian government and Moderna will allow 100m mRNA vaccines to be produced in Australia each year in a pandemic, starting in 2024 “pending regulatory and planning approval”.


----------



## moXJO (14 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like Moderna got the nod for the Tullamarine mRNA production facility.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/austral...facture-mrna-vaccines-under-deal-with-moderna
> From the article:
> ...



I wonder if this means "mandatory" yearly vaccines to keep it in use


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> I wonder if this means "mandatory" yearly vaccines to keep it in use



I think it is more about having a first world production facility, after spending 30 years closing them down and then the Government finding it had to try ebay to get vaccines when it needed them. 🤣


----------



## moXJO (14 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think it is more about having a first world production facility, after spending 30 years closing them down and then the Government finding it had to try ebay to get vaccines when it needed them. 🤣



I'm told that at the moment we have delays on some lifesaving medications. Probably a host of things we need to reinforce.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm told that at the moment we have delays on some lifesaving medications. Probably a host of things we need to reinforce.



Yes we will probably have to build a urea plant next door, now China has stopped sending that, so much for globalisation.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 December 2021)

Just heard on the news that 2 doses of Astra is virtually ineffective against Omicron.

Wonderful.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Just heard on the news that 2 doses of Astra is virtually ineffective against Omicron.
> 
> Wonderful.



Sounds like we need a new vaccine.
Lucky we didn't start paying people to have the vaccine, we would be on the third payment, another brain fart that luckily didn't get oxygen.


----------



## moXJO (14 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Just heard on the news that 2 doses of Astra is virtually ineffective against Omicron.
> 
> Wonderful.



I think it protects you from severity but not from catching it.


----------



## IFocus (14 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like Moderna got the nod for the Tullamarine mRNA production facility.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/austral...facture-mrna-vaccines-under-deal-with-moderna
> From the article:
> ...




Likely be ready just as COVID mutates itself out of existence, hopefully


----------



## macca (14 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Just heard on the news that 2 doses of Astra is virtually ineffective against Omicron.
> 
> Wonderful.



That night spot in Newcastle would be mainly young people who would have been Pfizer vaxed I assume.

Seems that is not very effective either with an infection rate of at least 30%, hopefully there are not many deaths.

Not really anything else the Govt can do except do both Vax and early support


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Likely be ready just as COVID mutates itself out of existence, hopefully



But hopefully before the next escapee.  🤣


----------



## rederob (17 December 2021)

The full explanation of this table is found here:





In simple terms it shows Moderna vaccines (aka mRNA-1273 = red dots) as most effective against Omicron.
Pfizer vaccines next best (dark blue dots), then AZ (purple) and Sinopharm (yellow).
J&J (light blue) and Sputnik (orange) appear to be useless.
Those not vaccinated but previously recovered from covid (tabled as "Convalescent) appear highly susceptible to Omicron.
Not shown is the better outcome for those who had covid then were later vaccinated.


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2021)

Great interview with Prof Nikolai Petrovsky about his Spikegen Vax (Covax19). On the face of it I think I would be far more willing to take this one, if/when approved.


----------



## bellenuit (18 December 2021)

Breakthrough infections generate ‘super immunity’ to COVID-19, study suggests​








						Breakthrough infections generate ‘super immunity’ to COVID-19, study suggests
					

COVID-19 vaccination provides a foundation of protection that’s enhanced by breakthrough infection; ‘the key is to get vaccinated.'




					news.ohsu.edu


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Breakthrough infections generate ‘super immunity’ to COVID-19, study suggests​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Listening to McCullough, any infection results in super immunity, vaxxed or not.


----------



## rederob (18 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Listening to McCullough, any infection results in super immunity, vaxxed or not.



If you read science you would know this is not true - see post #1284 above.
Little wonder you believe the nonsense you post here.


----------



## bellenuit (18 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Listening to McCullough, any infection results in super immunity, vaxxed or not.




There are 800,000 Americans that have achieved super immunity. but unfortunately it is of no use to them. There are millions more that are incapacitated or seriously injured for life, but at least they can claim to be super immune  Better to be vaxxed and protect against or mitigate the worst effects of Covid should it still get you, than to risk getting Covid first and suffering the potential consequences.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> There are 800,000 Americans that have achieved super immunity. but unfortunately it is of no use to them. There are millions more that are incapacitated or seriously injured for life, but at least they can claim to be super immune  Better to be vaxxed and protect against or mitigate the worst effects of Covid should it still get you, than to risk getting Covid first and suffering the potential consequences.



Omicron is the question.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> There are 800,000 Americans that have achieved super immunity. but unfortunately it is of no use to them. There are millions more that are incapacitated or seriously injured for life, but at least they can claim to be super immune  Better to be vaxxed and protect against or mitigate the worst effects of Covid should it still get you, than to risk getting Covid first and suffering the potential consequences.



That is, ignoring incapacitation from the injeckshun.

If unhealthy, the r/r probably lies with the needle... for now, let's see how that plays out long term.

If healthy, the r/r probably lies with being pureblood.


----------



## bellenuit (19 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> That is, ignoring incapacitation from the injeckshun.
> 
> If unhealthy, the r/r probably lies with the needle... for now, let's see how that plays out long term.
> 
> If healthy, the r/r probably lies with being pureblood.




Stop acting stupid. We know the mortality rate and probability of serious injury from the injection is substantially less than from covid. These facts are out there, but if you want to act the dumb idiot and pretend it is an issue, go for it. You just prove yourself to be as idiotic as some of those on the streets with their asinine placards. 

What is the incapacitation rate from the injection vs covid? Several orders of magnitude if you bother checking.

What are the long term issues with the injection vs from covid? What are the long term issues from previous vaccines vs the diseases they were designed to counteract? To date, always significantly less by orders of magnitude and there is no reason to expect covid vaccines to be different. Yeah, we won't know long term consequences of both until long term has come to pass. But there is nothing to date that suggests that vaccination is going to be worse than the disease itself and the regulatory standards applied to the public release of vaccines will ensure that remains the case.

I am sure you will search the internet for any obscure results that say otherwise and present them as more worthy of consideration than almost every other official result data that is available. It's really telling that to date you have not posted a single (maybe I missed one or two) statistical conclusion that vaccines are actually working, in both preventing infection and inhibiting its transmission, though there are hundreds out there. Is it because you can't find them, or is it because your ideology prevents you from posting anything that may suggest that your ideology is wrong.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Stop acting stupid. We know the mortality rate and probability of serious injury from the injection is substantially less than from covid. These facts are out there, but if you want to act the dumb idiot and pretend it is an issue, go for it. You just prove yourself to be as idiotic as some of those on the streets with their asinine placards.
> 
> What is the incapacitation rate from the injection vs covid? Several orders of magnitude if you bother checking.
> 
> ...



You stop acting stupid, Stupid.

Look at the age stratification of Covid vs injekshun injury/death... and I'm talking about the real figures. There is more nuance than you are prepared to see, for whatever stupid reason.


----------



## IFocus (19 December 2021)

Read a UK study that determined immune response from a COVID infection is determined by the viral load levels should the victim recover.

Of course due to natural selection not all recover fully.

Another mate of mine is 1/2 through  treatment for a autoimmune disease told once the WA border opens if he gets COVID (no matter what variant) its all over.


----------



## macca (19 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Read a UK study that determined immune response from a COVID infection is determined by the viral load levels should the victim recover.
> 
> Of course due to natural selection not all recover fully.
> 
> Another mate of mine is 1/2 through  treatment for a autoimmune disease told once the WA border opens if he gets COVID (no matter what variant) its all over.




Very worrying for those that really should be wrapped in cotton wool by the Govt. 

They need to be protected above all else, instead some of the older ones were locked up with positive Covid cases. 

Unbelievable really.....


----------



## rederob (21 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> You stop acting stupid, Stupid.
> 
> Look at the age stratification of Covid vs injekshun injury/death... and I'm talking about the real figures. There is more nuance than you are prepared to see, for whatever stupid reason.



If you are talking about real figures, then why not present them?
Here's a recent UK ONA update on the effectiveness of vaccinations:




The UK now has massive turnouts for booster shots, and in time these data will also be available to confirm the effectiveness of vaccinations.


----------



## IFocus (21 December 2021)

rederob said:


> If you are talking about real figures, then why not present them?
> Here's a recent UK ONA update on the effectiveness of vaccinations:
> View attachment 134589
> 
> The UK now has massive turnouts for booster shots, and in time these data will also be available to confirm the effectiveness of vaccinations.





Its a great site


----------



## moXJO (21 December 2021)

So I ended up with "Covid toe". Thought it was fungus or something and was wondering why nothing was working. Didn't know it was a thing.

All the other alleged side effects from the psychosomatic crowd:





__





						Drugs & Medications
					

Find 79 user ratings and reviews for Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine (PF)(EUA) Intramuscular on WebMD including side effects and drug interactions, medication effectiveness, ease of use and satisfaction




					www.webmd.com


----------



## macca (21 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> So I ended up with "Covid toe". Thought it was fungus or something and was wondering why nothing was working. Didn't know it was a thing.
> 
> All the other alleged side effects from the psychosomatic crowd:
> 
> ...




i can't remember, have you had Covid or had the vax ? I recall some photos on line of a person's ugly foot from Covid and the next post was a similar photo from someone blaming the Vax.

Perhaps the spike protein is to blame as both Covid and the Vax have that bit.


----------



## moXJO (21 December 2021)

macca said:


> i can't remember, have you had Covid or had the vax ? I recall some photos on line of a person's ugly foot from Covid and the next post was a similar photo from someone blaming the Vax.
> 
> Perhaps the spike protein is to blame as both Covid and the Vax have that bit.



From the vax. It happened a while back and just hung around for a few weeks. Apparently it's an immune response.
Can happen if you catch covid as well. 

I had a lot of reactions to the vaccine. But truth be told I'd of probably been one of those that died from covid.


----------



## basilio (22 December 2021)

Some potentially* great* news on the COVID protection front. A cheap easily acessible drug to stop the spread of the disease in all it's variants.

Melbourne researchers trial use of common blood-thinning drug heparin to combat COVID-19​By state political reporter Bridget Rollason
Posted 3h ago3 hours ago, updated 2h ago2 hours ago





 Don Campbell and Gary Anderson are optimistic about the preventative treatment for COVID-19.(ABC News: Bridget Rollason)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article



Melbourne researchers have turned one of the world's most-used drugs into a nasal spray which they hope could prevent COVID-19 transmission.
Key points:​
The nasal spray is expected to be effective against emerging COVID variants, including Omicron
The drug will be trialled in 340 Victorian households over the next six months
The spray does not require refrigeration and could be distributed widely









						Researchers think they've found a way to combat COVID-19 using a common blood thinner
					

A trial of a nasal spray as a preventative treatment for COVID-19 will run for six months in Victoria. If it's a success, the spray could be distributed across the world.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## macca (22 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Some potentially* great* news on the COVID protection front. A cheap easily acessible drug to stop the spread of the disease in all it's variants.
> 
> Melbourne researchers trial use of common blood-thinning drug heparin to combat COVID-19​By state political reporter Bridget Rollason
> Posted 3h ago3 hours ago, updated 2h ago2 hours ago
> ...




Funny how even though it is one of the "worlds most used drugs" it still requires trials, sort of like IVM and Hydrox.

Hopefully this one is not banned as well


----------



## wayneL (22 December 2021)

McCullough suggested nasal sprays. It makes sense to me. Like many bacteria and viruses, Cov-sars2 is not hard to kill if you can get direct contact and there are many agents that will do the job.

We have used a nasal spray agent for exposure to colds flu for many years...  But it has to be *early*, like a prophylactic, rather than a treatment once the disease takes hold.

FWIW


----------



## Belli (23 December 2021)

macca said:


> Funny how even though it is one of the "worlds most used drugs" it still requires trials




They would be totally negligent if they didn't undertake trials.


----------



## cynic (23 December 2021)

Belli said:


> They would be totally negligent if they didn't undertake trials.



Great to see that you're finally catching on!


----------



## macca (23 December 2021)

Belli said:


> They would be totally negligent if they didn't undertake trials.



In 2019 Fauci said it would take 10 years before an mRNA vaccine could be released safely after trials were completed.........................


----------



## Belli (23 December 2021)

cynic said:


> Great to see that you're finally catching on!




Yep, just like these dudes did with regard to studies of another proposed treatment medication for Covid.

"Dr Kyle Sheldrick, one of the group investigating the studies, said they had not found "a single clinical trial" claiming to show that ivermectin prevented Covid deaths that did not contain "either obvious signs of fabrication or errors so critical they invalidate the study".
Major problems included:

The same patient data being used multiple times for supposedly different people *(bad, naughty)*
Evidence that selection of patients for test groups was not random *(bad, naughty)*
Numbers unlikely to occur naturally *(Oops)*
Percentages calculated incorrectly *(damn maths)*
Local health bodies unaware of the studies."









						Ivermectin: How false science created a Covid 'miracle' drug
					

Thousands worldwide have taken ivermectin to fight Covid. But what's the evidence?



					www.bbc.com


----------



## cynic (23 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Yep, just like these dudes did with regard to studies of another proposed treatment medication for Covid.
> 
> "Dr Kyle Sheldrick, one of the group investigating the studies, said they had not found "a single clinical trial" claiming to show that ivermectin prevented Covid deaths that did not contain "either obvious signs of fabrication or errors so critical they invalidate the study".
> Major problems included:
> ...



So you found a study that you can condemn! Good for you!!

Would you care to apply the same standards when reviewing the studies supportive of mRNA based treatments for Covid19?

Better yet, would you care to share your thoughts, on Pfizer's new oral antiviral drug, and its perceived efficacy as a covid19 treatment?


----------



## Belli (23 December 2021)

One of the nice things of clinical trials is the publications.  And publishing is one of the strengths.  Every researcher with expertise in various fields will go through it thoroughly for errors and standards.  Should there be concerns, this can be the result.

*








						Table: Ivermectin Clinical Data | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines
					

Review clinical data on the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19.



					www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov
				



*


----------



## Belli (23 December 2021)

cynic said:


> So you found a study




Here is an earlier meta-analysis for you.









						Ivermectin for preventing and treating COVID-19
					






					www.cochrane.org


----------



## cynic (23 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Here is an earlier meta-analysis for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





cynic said:


> So you found a study that you can condemn! Good for you!!
> 
> Would you care to apply the same standards when reviewing the studies supportive of mRNA based treatments for Covid19?
> 
> Better yet, would you care to share your thoughts, on Pfizer's new oral antiviral drug, and its perceived efficacy as a covid19 treatment?



The notable absence, of answers to the questions posed, is very telling.

Could it be that you discerned the presence of a loaded question?!

I invite those harbouring doubts about the wisdom of including ivermectin within the covid19 treatment arsenal, to answer the question, recently posed, regarding Pfizer's new covid treatment.


----------



## Belli (23 December 2021)

cynic said:


> The notable absence, of answers to the questions posed, is very telling.





An afternoon or two reading for you.





__





						Covid-19 living Data
					





					covid-nma.com


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2021)

I haven't got any links but from some of the material I've read, Ivm is NOT effective as a stand alone medication for early treatment of covid-19. 

This is actually the same for hydroxychloroquine.

It seems to me a little bit disingenuous that these studies quoted have been tests for ivermectin as a standalone medication.

It is pretty well documented that ivermectin in conjunction with other drugs is more effective, so it must be considered as part of a cocktail of drugs rather than by itself.

This should not be surprising as even in my own humble trade when I am dealing with a dangerous animal that a cocktail of drugs is required for best effect. Acepromazine, xylazine, even butorphonal or detomodine, on their own, can get me injured or killed.

Yet a combination of these drugs "keeps me safe" 

This is not uncommon at all in medicine.


----------



## macca (23 December 2021)

Yes, like most seriously effective treatments there is a right way and right time to use them.

Deliberately using it in a different way than tested just feeds the conspiracy theory.

Quite simple really, let people use it as wanted, if it fails then people will stop the clamour BUT when it works they can kiss goodbye to all the Vax demand.

Some people may not be aware of this group of Doctors in the USA who have a range of protocols listed

<<About the I-MASK+ Protocol for COVID-19​
In October 2020, the FLCCC Alliance developed a preventive and early outpatient combination treatment protocol for COVID-19 called *I-MASK+. *It’s centered around *ivermectin*, a well-known, FDA-approved anti-parasite drug that has been used successfully for more than four decades to treat onchocerciasis “river blindness” and other parasitic diseases. It is one of the safest drugs known. It is on the WHO’s list of essential medicines, has been given 3.7 billion times around the globe, and has won the Nobel prize for its global and historic impacts in eradicating endemic parasitic infections in many parts of the world. Our medical discovery of a rapidly growing published medical evidence base, demonstrating ivermectin’s unique and highly potent ability to inhibit SARS-CoV-2 replication and to suppress inflammation, prompted our team to use ivermectin for prevention and treatment in all stages of COVID-19. Ivermectin is not yet FDA-approved for the treatment of COVID-19, but on Jan 14, 2021, the NIH changed their recommendation for the use of ivermectin in COVID-19 from “against” to “neutral”. (see our  press release).>>









						I-MASK+ Protocol - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
					

The MATH+ Hospital Treatment Protocol for Covid-19 is a physiologic-based combination treatment regimen created by leaders in critical care medicine.




					covid19criticalcare.com


----------



## rederob (23 December 2021)

macca said:


> Yes, like most seriously effective treatments there is a right way and right time to use them.
> 
> Deliberately using it in a different way than tested just feeds the conspiracy theory.
> 
> ...



Some people *ARE *aware.
Take their poor advice at your peril.
There are proven treatments available and in use.
Here's what the FDA say about ivermectin:
Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19​


----------



## rederob (24 December 2021)

cynic said:


> I invite those harbouring doubts about the wisdom of including ivermectin within the covid19 treatment arsenal, to answer the question, recently posed, regarding Pfizer's new covid treatment.



Where is your data on the efficacy of ivermectin that supports any purported "wisdom"?
Without it, what are you proposing as a basis for comparison?
Why do you habitually require answers from others when you actually offer nothing up front?

Here's what is *proven *about Pfizer's drug, (as distinct from "perceived" as you asked):

_Final data available from all high-risk patients enrolled in EPIC-HR study (n= 2,246) confirmed prior results of interim analysis showing PAXLOVID™ (nirmatrelvir [PF-07321332] tablets and ritonavir tablets) reduced risk of hospitalization or death by 89% (within three days of symptom onset) and 88% (within five days of symptom onset) compared to placebo; no deaths compared to placebo in non-hospitalized, high-risk adults with COVID-19_
_The above data have been shared with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as part of an ongoing rolling submission for Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)_
_Separately, interim analyses of an ongoing second study in standard-risk adults (EPIC-SR) showed a 70% reduction in hospitalization and no deaths in the treated population, compared to placebo, in the secondary endpoint; the novel primary endpoint of self-reported, sustained alleviation of all symptoms for four consecutive days, as compared to placebo, was not met. The study continues_
_An approximate 10-fold decrease in viral load at Day 5, relative to placebo, was observed in both EPIC-HR and EPIC-SR, indicating robust activity against SARS-CoV-2 and representing the strongest viral load reduction reported to date for a COVID-19 oral antiviral agent_
_Recent in vitro data confirm that nirmatrelvir is a potent inhibitor of the Omicron 3CL protease, which, combined with existing in vitro antiviral and protease inhibition data from other Variants of Concern (VoC) including Delta, indicates that PAXLOVID will retain robust antiviral activity against current VoCs as well as other coronaviruses_


----------



## cynic (24 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Where is your data on the efficacy of ivermectin that supports any purported "wisdom"?




Thanks rederob. You have just provided the proof that ivermectin works!!


rederob said:


> Without it, what are you proposing as a basis for comparison?
> Why do you habitually require answers from others when you actually offer nothing up front?
> 
> Here's what is *proven *about Pfizer's drug, (as distinct from "perceived" as you asked):
> ...



And the reason Pfizer's new drug works so well, just happens to be because, it primarily acts as a protease inhibitor!

Care to guess which other drug, acts primarily as a protease inhibitor?! (HINT: Its name  begins with "iver" and ends with "mectin")

Even someone such as yourself should be able to figure this one out!


----------



## rederob (24 December 2021)

cynic said:


> Thanks rederob. You have just provided the proof that ivermectin works!!



The opposite is true, and your habit of making false claims is tiresome.
The reason drugs are approved by competent authorities is because they meet the burden of evidence necessary for such approval, and I clearly linked at post #1315 that this has not occurred for ivermectin to date.


----------



## cynic (24 December 2021)

rederob said:


> The opposite is true, and your habit of making false claims is tiresome.
> The reason drugs are approved by competent authorities is because they meet the burden of evidence necessary for such approval, and I clearly linked at post #1315 that this has not occurred for ivermectin to date.



So which claim exactly, are you accusing me of falsifying?!!

Both drugs  are known to be effective at preventing viral replication because of their merits as protease inhibitors, and you caught yourself out by choosing to answer an obviously "loaded" question.


----------



## rederob (24 December 2021)

cynic said:


> So which claim exactly, are you accusing me of falsifying?!



You stated I "provided the proof that ivermectin works", which is *false *and was clearly elaborated in my reply.
HIV drugs prevent viral replication, and dozens of other drugs do as well.  While Pfizer has scientific proof of efficacy based on intended use, ivermectin cannot yet make a valid claim to that effect.
As I said earlier, you have no basis for comparison, so unless you stump up with something my conversation with you on this point is again over.


----------



## cynic (24 December 2021)

rederob said:


> You stated I "provided the proof that ivermectin works", which is *false *and was clearly elaborated in my reply.
> HIV drugs prevent viral replication, and dozens of other drugs do as well.  While Pfizer has scientific proof of efficacy based on intended use, ivermectin cannot yet make a valid claim to that effect.
> As I said earlier, you have no basis for comparison, so unless you stump up with something my conversation with you on this point is again over.



That's because you did indeed, albeit unwittingly, provide such proof!


----------



## basilio (24 December 2021)

*Surprise, surprise, surprise.*

A month after it  was clear it should have been announced Greg Hunt has brought bought the eligibility time for booster shots. 
So the next question is. How the hell are we going to jab 16 million people in January/February given our past performance.? 


_Atagi has been going through a “constant review process” of international evidence, *Greg Hunt* says. The cohort will more than double to 7.5 million people eligible for boosters from 4 January when the period is reduced:
_


>



_ 
It’s no surprise we will be bringing forward the eligibility for the booster dose to four months as of 4 January. The planning behind that is that will open up a new cohort. *Currently that means that we will go from about 3.2 million people who are eligible today to approximately 7.5 million who will be eligible as 4 January. That means that the cohort has expanded. It will be expanded again on the 31st of January to three months and that will take it out to 16 million Australians who will be eligible at that point in time *and as we have said all along, eligibility is the beginning of access, it doesn’t mean that somebody is overdue the very day they become eligible.

These dates have been set out of an abundance of caution to give Australians early continued protection and the advice we have is that the protection as it is is very strong against severe illness, but what we’ll see is a much stronger protection against transmission._


----------



## Belli (24 December 2021)

basilio said:


> How the hell are we going to jab 16 million people in January/February given our past performance.?




Get Australia Post to deliver DIY injecting kits.


----------



## basilio (24 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Get Australia Post to deliver DIY injecting kits.




Yeaah.   But would they ever arrive in time ??


----------



## Belli (24 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Yeaah.   But would they ever arrive in time ??




Good point.  Probably deliver to the same address but in a different State.

Have to admit I am over the claim by Governments about vaccination rates.  It's all based on *eligible *population which means a large swathe may remain unvaccinated and so vulnerable.  And saying 95% are vaccinated is somewhat misleading as that is overall and various regions may not be at that point.

Link to vaccination rates by LGA below.



			https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/12/covid-19-vaccination-local-government-area-lga-20-december-2021.xlsx


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2021)

If nasal spays prove effective, maybe crop dusters and aerial firefighting planes could be used.
If it has to be an injection, possibly enrol the assistance of the mormons and jehovas witnesses and do a door to door roll out?


----------



## moXJO (24 December 2021)

They should have just sent a box of tissues through the post.


Belli said:


> Good point.  Probably deliver to the same address but in a different State.
> 
> Have to admit I am over the claim by Governments about vaccination rates.  It's all based on *eligible *population which means a large swathe may remain unvaccinated and so vulnerable.  And saying 95% are vaccinated is somewhat misleading as that is overall and various regions may not be at that point.
> 
> ...



Putting a scare out like this is also misleading.
 Under a certain age the risks are minute.
Smells like political fckery when you semi expand.


----------



## moXJO (24 December 2021)

Nsw didn't seem to care that much. Noticed the pump on social media from the usual political bed wetters and now we are back to the covid doom cycle. Obviously you don't want hospitals filling up. But you also don't want to delay this past the summer. 

Hopefully enough cases to spread around and get to the endemic stage sooner.


----------



## rederob (24 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Nsw didn't seem to care that much. Noticed the pump on social media from the usual political bed wetters and now we are back to the covid doom cycle. Obviously you don't want hospitals filling up. But you also don't want to delay this past the summer.
> 
> Hopefully enough cases to spread around and get to the endemic stage sooner.



I was listening to business owners in Newcastle being interviewed today.  While Omicron may have had an effect on patronage, quite a number of businesses did not have enough staff to open because they were now in isolation/quarantine.  That pattern will spread across Australia in coming weeks.


----------



## moXJO (24 December 2021)

rederob said:


> I was listening to business owners in Newcastle being interviewed today.  While Omicron may have had an effect on patronage, quite a number of businesses did not have enough staff to open because they were now in isolation/quarantine.  That pattern will spread across Australia in coming weeks.



Shortage of stock, everyone already bought during lockdown and delivery has probably had a bigger effect. Most people I know are going back to work asap.


As much as it sucks, getting to the end stage of this with Omicron is probably where we want to be. 

This idea that we need to "absolutely not catch it" isn't right imo. 
Obviously we need to constantly keep checking data. But waves of flu is actually what primes your immune system. 

Omicron seems to be near enough to the 'goldilocks variant' we want. Let's see where nsw data leads us to over the next month.


----------



## basilio (24 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Shortage of stock, everyone already bought during lockdown and delivery has probably had a bigger effect. Most people I know are going back to work asap.
> 
> 
> As much as it sucks, getting to the end stage of this with Omicron is probably where we want to be.
> ...




Really ? Goldilocks variant ? Let it rip ?
It's already clear that the infectiousness of Omicron threatens to overun our health system. 1% serious problems with 1 million people is still way more than 5% serious with 50k . In any case there still isn't enough knowledge about how Omicron will turn out to justify such a view.

On top of that however is the reality of long COVID.  A significant number of people don't simply have a nasty flu and then get back to mormal. There are long term health problems that undermine their situation individually and society as a whole.


Don’t dismiss Omicron as ‘mild’. Take it from a Covid long-hauler​JD Davids


At least 10% of those who survive any Covid infection – whether asymptomatic or severe – will develop long Covid





Many people describe a ‘mild’ case of Covid as the most sick they have ever been in their lives. Photograph: Susana Vera/Reuters
Thu 23 Dec 2021 22.24 AEDT
Last modified on Fri 24 Dec 2021 15.57 AEDT

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/23/omicron-covid-19-long-hauler#comments
227
On Wednesday, the New York Times – and others – published what appeared to be good news. “Omicron infections seem to be milder, three research teams report” read the headline. Many readers must have been relieved to see this news, especially with cases sky-rocketing even as the holiday season is in full swing.

As someone living with post-viral conditions exacerbated by Long Covid, I read the story carefully. I noted the preliminary nature of the data from South Africa, Scotland and England, and the prediction that the greater infectiousness of Omicron would still likely land many people in hospitals already strained to capacity.

But despite these caveats, I felt little relief or reassurance after reading the article. It contained no mention at all of Long Covid. Not one. This is not a benign oversight; it’s a fundamental and dangerous misread of our global predicament and the future that awaits us.


This anti-Covid pill changes everything. So why won’t it be available for all?


Read more
We’ve still got a lot to learn about Covid-19, including this new variant. But one thing we know for certain is that “mild Covid” can be debilitating and lead to long-term or permanent disease and disability.

We now know that at least 10-30% of those who survive _any_ Covid infection (from asymptomatic or “mild”to severe) will go on to live with (and sometimes die from) long Covid – a long-term, lifelong, or even life-threatening or fatal, disabling chronic syndrome, the biological pathways of which are still largely unknown.









						Don’t dismiss Omicron as ‘mild’. Take it from a Covid long-hauler | JD Davids
					

At least 10% of those who survive any Covid infection – whether asymptomatic or severe – will develop long Covid




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## rederob (26 December 2021)

barney said:


> Why are the AR's so *exponentially high compared to all other vaccine rollouts in our history?*
> 
> I'm not pretending I know or have the answers, but I sure as hell don't like the numbers I am seeing in many aspects of this "pandemic".



I have moved my reply to @barney from @Craton's thread to here.
@Country Lad covered most of the relevant points I would have made, although I would have added post #816 as equally unhelpful and from the poisoned trough.  Medical data on adverse effects have been widely reported in MSM and I found your post cherrypicked snippets out of context with the real world.  On the other hand social media antivaxxers have constantly lied and misreported the data, almost universally failing the concept of *causation*.
With specific reference to your idea that "*AR's (are) so* *exponentially high compared to all other vaccine rollouts in our history,"  *what exactly is your basis for comparison?
Factors such as redness, soreness or swelling around the vaccination site can be recorded as *adverse* but they are not regarded as *serious*.
On the other hand, this recent independent study on adverse events concluded:
*"In this real-world cohort, serious COVID-19 vaccine adverse effects were rare, and overall adverse effects were similar to industry and government reports. This independent evaluation enabled the comparison of adverse effects between vaccine manufacturers, noting that adverse effects were more common with mRNA-1273 compared with BNT162b2."*​​Contrast the adverse events from vaccines against covid and in lay terms its a "no contest".  Somehow there are people in social media who would have us believe that the millions of unvaccinated who die from covid or suffer severe post infection events are better off than those who are vaccinated.  If you want to gamble with natural immunity from infection then the odds are extremely poor compared with infection after double vaxxing, so why anyone would advocate this pathway is a mystery.


----------



## sptrawler (26 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> They should have just sent a box of tissues through the post.
> 
> Putting a scare out like this is also misleading.
> Under a certain age the risks are minute.
> Smells like political fckery when you semi expand.






The Morrison government will be loving it, the media are being fed easy articles on the virus, so that suits the bone idle lot. 
Meanwhile the papers are full of virus hyperbole and all the negative press against the Government has disappeared and Albo is getting no airplay, win/win for Morrison.


----------



## barney (26 December 2021)

rederob said:


> although I would have added post #816 as equally unhelpful and from the poisoned trough.






rederob said:


> and I found your post cherrypicked snippets out of context with the real world.



Guilty as charged Red.    I admit I did cherry pick the data/news reports.

They were a couple of minutes from "the highwire" to try and make what I thought was a valid point. (The  whole show goes for 2 hours and I'm pretty sure many would simply not take the time)

I also stated that Del Bigtree is an anti-vax advocate, in an attempt to be transparent.

What was I actually trying to point out in those 2 vids?

*1)  * 2 months after the "vaccines" had been rolled out, virtually all MS media outlets were telling we the mass population that:

There had been *NO serious adverse reactions and NO deaths* caused by the shots.  The footage I showed was from various medical practitioners including Pfizer representatives.

*2)*  As of the other week, the first round of documents released after the* FOIA* request which was upheld by a US court showed:

*1223 Deaths in the first 2 months* of the vaccine roll out and a cumulative + 150,000 adverse reactions, and a large amount were serious.

So do we accept the above and sweep it under the carpet, or should we do some research into why MS media and Big Pharma find it necessary to *lie* to the general public, and only release important data if they are sued?

I accept that all the 1223 deaths may not have been caused by the vaccines, but given a large percentage of them occurred within *48 hours of receiving the shot*, the correlation/ causation argument appears to be standing on shaky ground in this instance.

Assuming we all accept the above data from Pfizer, it makes the publicly available database from the CDC (VAERS) look like a horror movie.

The below chart is the current accumulated deaths post vax and the scary part is the incredibly high % of those unfortunate people died within 24-48 hours

ps  And just to confirm to those unfamiliar with the data I am quoting, it has not been collected from some anti-vax site in an attempt to cause hysteria;  It is from both the Pfizer Company direct, and the *"Centre for Disease Control and Prevention"*  (CDC- US Government)


----------



## Belli (26 December 2021)

Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)
					

VAERS is a warning system used to monitor events after vaccination.




					www.cdc.gov
				




"VAERS reports alone generally cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. Some reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. VAERS reports often lack contextual information, such as total vaccinations given or information on unvaccinated groups for comparison. Most reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they may be subject to biases. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind."

May need to filter multiple reports of the same event.









						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov
				




*"Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare*. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. *Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. *More than 485 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through December 13, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 10,483 reports of death (0.0022%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA clinicians review reports of death to VAERS including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records."

"As of December 8, 2021, more than 16.9 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 57 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine and later developed TTS.

CDC has also identified nine deaths that have been caused by or were directly attributed to TTS following J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination."

There is more in the link provided.


----------



## rederob (26 December 2021)

barney said:


> *1)  * 2 months after the "vaccines" had been rolled out, virtually all MS media outlets were telling we the mass population that:
> 
> There had been *NO serious adverse reactions and NO deaths* caused by the shots.  The footage I showed was from various medical practitioners including Pfizer representatives.



Do you know what VAERS was showing then?  And we have moved on since 2020 given 2022 starts next week!


barney said:


> *2)*  As of the other week, the first round of documents released after the* FOIA* request which was upheld by a US court showed:
> 
> *1223 Deaths in the first 2 months* of the vaccine roll out and a cumulative + 150,000 adverse reactions, and a large amount were serious.



Again, what was causation showing?
The data on serious adverse events is unequivocal - *they are rare*


barney said:


> Assuming we all accept the above data from Pfizer, it makes the publicly available database from the CDC (VAERS) look like a horror movie.



You have not shown the number of deaths caused by vaccination, not that serious adverse events were other than *rare*.
Whereas  covid deaths and serious illness data are the exact opposite.


barney said:


> The below chart is the current accumulated deaths post vax and the scary part is the incredibly high % of those unfortunate people died within 24-48 hours



Again, you have presented *no causation evidence*.
Here's data from Janssen to 9 December 2021:




I could not find data on Pfizer deaths, but so far in Australia there appear to be none from tens of millions of vaccinations.
An AFP fact-check said clinical research indicates no link between the Pfizer vaccine and fatalities.



barney said:


> ps  And just to confirm to those unfamiliar with the data I am quoting, it has not been collected from some anti-vax site in an attempt to cause hysteria;  It is from both the Pfizer Company direct, and the *"Centre for Disease Control and Prevention"*  (CDC- US Government)



This is what the CDC say:
"*Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare*. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. *Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem."*​​(apologies to @Belli for overlap as I had this sitting as a draft for ages while trying to find reliable Pfizer death data)

The horror movie you mentioned relates to the millions of covid deaths principally amongst those unvaccinated, yet you seem to dwell on data that has not established causal linkages with vaccinations.

I don't understand what drives people to misrepresent data when so many nations have detailed information showing definitively that deaths due to covid vaccinations are rare.  Australia's example relating to Pfizer's safety could not be clearer.


----------



## Belli (26 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Australia's example relating to Pfizer's safety could not be clearer.




From TGA's Weekly Safety report of 23 December:






The likely rates per 100,000 doses are in Table 2 in the link below









						COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 23-12-2021
					

Information about the TGA's safety monitoring of COVID-19 vaccines.




					www.tga.gov.au


----------



## barney (26 December 2021)

@Belli   and @rederob 

There is likely little point in getting into an argument over the data above.  We have differing views on how to interpret the data.  That is Statistics 101 in a nutshell.  

With that in consideration, and call me weird, but I find it important to ask the question in regard to the data; Why over* 5,000 people* (out of a reported +20,000 deaths) have *died within 48 hours of being vaccinated*    Should that not raise questions?

I agree, the ratio of deaths to vaccine injections is theoretically small, although we may have trouble convincing the Parents who have lost their children within a day or two of being jabbed, of the mathematical insignificance of such percentages!

Death is the final frontier of course ..... The Adverse reactions across the board have been exponential 

For example, what about the increase in *Myocarditis* particularly in young Men/Pfizer since the vaccine roll out??  Fact/fiction/bad luck?

Again US *(CDC) data*  ... I'm just the messenger. Make your own judgement.


----------



## rederob (26 December 2021)

barney said:


> @Belli   and @rederob
> 
> There is likely little point in getting into an argument over the data above.  We have differing views on how to interpret the data.  That is Statistics 101 in a nutshell.



The data have been explained (not "interpreted") so are beyond debate.  You are choosing to believe things about the data which appear to be untrue.


barney said:


> With that in consideration, and call me weird, but I find it important to ask the question in regard to the data; Why over* 5,000 people* (out of a reported +20,000 deaths) have *died within 48 hours of being vaccinated*    Should that not raise questions?



No. The data has been explained and should be clear given that Australia's data on *causality *- which you continue to ignore - bears no resemblance. 


barney said:


> I agree, the ratio of deaths to vaccine injections is theoretically small,



No the data is *ACTUALLY *definitive - there is nothing "*theoretical" *about it.


barney said:


> ... although we may have trouble convincing the Parents who have lost their children within a day or two of being jabbed, of the mathematical insignificance of such percentages!



Given this has never yet occurred in Australia, you are clutching at straws. 
Why are you not using data on hospitalisations leading to deaths, which are well known?


barney said:


> Death is the final frontier of course ..... The Adverse reactions across the board have been exponential'



That's an unsubstantiated claim.  The important metric is severe illness that perpetuates or leads to death.  And in that regard we know death attributable to severe reactions from Pfizer in Australia is presently nil.

You can post as many charts and tables as you want that avoid what is relevant, as the bottom line is that vaccines are substantially safer than catching covid for every age group, and that deaths caused by vaccinations are rare.  Hiding these truths because you have not worked out where causation sits in data analysis is a disservice to those you speak to on these matters.


----------



## Belli (26 December 2021)

It is totally baffling, and somewhat bizarre, to imply an organisation such as the CDC with about 15,000 staff which includes computer scientists, statisticians, biologists and a host of other disciplines don't know how to count.


----------



## barney (27 December 2021)

All I'm doing is showing the numbers listed from the CDC USA data. Its not my data.

If you guys choose to take your data analysis from an exponentially smaller dataset (ie Australian data), which I agree looks better, fine.  

But statistics are generally more reliable when ALL the data is collated.  (ps Have a look at the Yellow Card data from the UK)

I actually hope you guys are right and I turn out to be 100% on the wrong track. I certainly don't want people getting sick from any vaccine.

Time will be the judge I guess.


----------



## Belli (27 December 2021)

Publicly available data set from the CDC.  First column "outcome", fifth column "Vaccine product."






						Rates of COVID-19 Cases or Deaths by Age Group and Vaccination Status | Data | Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
					






					data.cdc.gov
				



Don't jump to the conclusion it reports a vaccine was the cause of death.


----------



## rederob (27 December 2021)

barney said:


> All I'm doing is showing the numbers listed from the CDC USA data. Its not my data.



Seriously @barney?
I have presented data with *causality* and you have not.  If you don't understand the difference then your interpretation is deficient.


barney said:


> If you guys choose to take your data analysis from an exponentially smaller dataset (ie Australian data), which I agree looks better, fine.



Australian data is based on tens of millions of records and goes directly to causality, whereas your data does not.  If you believe that tens of millions of records is inadequate then you need to revisit your data analysis skills.  


barney said:


> Time will be the judge I guess.



No, the data is already clear and unequivocal.  The fact there are no deaths attributable to Pfizer vaccinations should tell you something!
You are doing your best to avoid the bleeding obvious by *not *focusing on key metrics.


----------



## Belli (27 December 2021)

barney said:


> If you guys choose to take your data analysis from an exponentially smaller dataset (ie Australian data), which *I agree looks better*, fine.




In the light of this:

"We continue to work with international regulators on this safety signal (referring to Comirnaty)"

We are closely monitoring the rates of myocarditis for all age groups and sex. While there are some fluctuations from week to week, especially in subgroups with small numbers of reports, rates of reporting of myocarditis in Australia are consistent with rates reported internationally."

the Australian data does not "look" better as claimed.

Above from TGA Covid-19 Weekly Safety report.  The link to it has already been posted if people wish to read it.

The data is consistent with other international data.  If it weren't and the indications were Comirnaty was not an appropriate vaccination everyone from The Garven to The Burnett would fronting up to hammer on TGA's door out at Symonston demanding it be withdrawn.


----------



## barney (27 December 2021)

rederob said:


> I have presented data with *causality* and you have not.  If you don't understand the difference then your interpretation is deficient.
> 
> The fact there are no deaths attributable to Pfizer vaccinations




@rederob    Thanks for the reply and I take your comments on board.

I'm neither a Scientist nor a Data analyst, so I totally accept I may be deficient in my interpretation of data.  I do try to be honest with regard to whatever I post however and have no false agenda.  

In saying that, I accept that I may be better served by simply posting an article or a video and ask for other's interpretation prior to discussion.


Therefore, rather than me making potentially incorrect statements about Pfizer stating Zero deaths have been caused by their vaccine,  


Can I ask,  If someone disagreed or thought they could disprove that same statement from Pfizer, how would/could they prove causation with regard to death post receiving a vaccine?  (genuine question/questions following.)


As a lay person, I would suspect that time elapsed to death post vaccine would be a possible "red flag" to follow up on? (24-48 hours?)

To prove or disprove from that point in time, would we likely/in fact require an autopsy??


Hypothetically, if an autopsy is not performed, does that mean that said death/deaths can immediately be rejected as vaccine related because causation cannot actually be proven?  

In the same vein, how can we prove/disprove causation with regard to serious adverse reactions?  Is it actually even possible?

Cheers.


----------



## Belli (28 December 2021)

barney said:


> To prove or disprove from that point in time, would we likely/in fact require an autopsy??




This may be of interest to you.  While it is from NSW Health, it is similar to other jurisdictions. 





__





						Human tissue - Frequently asked questions on post mortem examinations in NSW
					

Answers to frequently asked questions on post mortem (autopsy) and non-coronial post mortem.




					www.health.nsw.gov.au


----------



## rederob (28 December 2021)

barney said:


> As a lay person, I would suspect that time elapsed to death post vaccine would be a possible "red flag" to follow up on? (24-48 hours?)



There is no difference between a day and a fortnight if the vaccine didn't trigger a medical event.  The "red flags" you refer to are measurable events via medical diagnosis and @Belli tabled these for pericarditis and myocarditis in an earlier post.


barney said:


> To prove or disprove from that point in time, would we likely/in fact require an autopsy??



Not as a matter of course, as serious medical events are diagnosed and reported.  
Autopsies would occur if a coroner determined it necessary or if a party requested it.
I was not able to find evidence of deaths in Australia for Pfizer, so autopsies would not be performed.  The AZ deaths which were attributable to vaccination were from severe reactions that were closely followed by the TGA and picked up by the media.  As we know, the widespread reporting of adverse events relating to AZ vaccinations also contributed to vaccine hesitancy in the early days.


barney said:


> Hypothetically, if an autopsy is not performed, does that mean that said death/deaths can immediately be rejected as vaccine related because causation cannot actually be proven?



Unless an autopsy was deemed necessary the death would be recorded in the usual way and attributions made.  Are you thinking these data are being hidden?


barney said:


> In the same vein, how can we prove/disprove causation with regard to serious adverse reactions?  Is it actually even possible?



Health professional must report and manage adverse events.  These are followed through to a reported outcome.
It's up to you to believe or otherwise what doctors and the TGA report.
Similarly you can choose not to believe data relating to covid deaths and long-term illness.


----------



## Belli (28 December 2021)

Remiss of me but I should have added postmortems are not always as portrayed in many TV shows.  The results of toxicological analysis, most often on blood, can be used.  ICD coding is used for classification of cause of death.  I understand the 10th edition has been upgraded recently.


----------



## wayneL (29 December 2021)

More illumination:


----------



## barney (30 December 2021)

@rederob and @Belli 

Thanks for the above replies.  I confess I am still having trouble coming to terms with so many reported "post vaccine" deaths being reported as "non vaccine" related based on the opinion of the CDC which is based on whether Doctors deem it necessary to classify it that way etc etc.

I accept I am biased against the CDC and some other US Gov organizations who I believe may have an agenda to not admit the correct numbers. If that projects me as a conspiracy theorist at this point, I have to take that on the chin.  Leave it with me for the time being


----------



## rederob (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> I accept I am biased against the CDC and some other US Gov organizations who I believe may have an agenda to not admit the correct numbers. If that projects me as a conspiracy theorist at this point, I have to take that on the chin.  Leave it with me for the time being



You could take the easy path and trust Australia's system.
It might not be perfect, but there aren't as many geese flying around with conspiracy theories relating to our data.


----------



## wayneL (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> @rederob and @Belli
> 
> Thanks for the above replies.  I confess I am still having trouble coming to terms with so many reported "post vaccine" deaths being reported as "non vaccine" related based on the opinion of the CDC which is based on whether Doctors deem it necessary to classify it that way etc etc.
> 
> I accept I am biased against the CDC and some other US Gov organizations who I believe may have an agenda to not admit the correct numbers. If that projects me as a conspiracy theorist at this point, I have to take that on the chin.  Leave it with me for the time being



I see so many parallels with the hendra vaccine for horses. Ironically it is a vaccine that requires two jabs and originally six-monthly boosters... Now yearly.

The parallels I see is in the reluctance of veterinarians to report vaccine injuries. I have had clients whose horses had massive systemic reactions 72 hours post injection, yet veterinarians refusing to report as a vaccine reaction.

Likewise we farriers see the after effects of the vaccine, in the horses hooves in the shape of various grades of laminitis. Results can be temporary lameness, right up to catastrophic life ending and excruciating injury.

Yes in some instances correlation does not equal causation, but in about 75% of laminitis cases that I was dealing with in Queensland I was correctly predicting the timing of the most recent hendra virus needle.

Yet there is no acknowledgement from the veterinary community of this.

interestingly Zoetis, the manufacturer of the vaccine, was a subsidiary of Pfizer and has been the subject of a class action which was settled out of court.

.... And there is lots more to this story, which would take hours.


----------



## wayneL (30 December 2021)

The current clown world for those with short memories:


----------



## bellenuit (6 January 2022)

I don't really want to start a new thread for this so I am appending it here.

The general consensus is that cloth masks just don't cut it with Omicron and the favoured mask is the N95 standard. But every time I search Google for "best N95 mask Australia" I get overwhelmed with stuff that just makes me more confused than ever.

Has anyone researched this and is able to offer one or two brands that they would recommend, preferably from national retailers or trustworthy online sites?


----------



## wayneL (6 January 2022)

bellenuit said:


> I don't really want to start a new thread for this so I am appending it here.
> 
> The general consensus is that cloth masks just don't cut it with Omicron and the favoured mask is the N95 standard. But every time I search Google for "best N95 mask Australia" I get overwhelmed with stuff that just makes me more confused than ever.
> 
> Has anyone researched this and is able to offer one or two brands that they would recommend, preferably from national retailers or trustworthy online sites?



Ditto.

If I must be forced into wearing a mask, swearing and bitching about it, it might as well be a worthwhile exercise.

i.e. must have an efficacy of greater than 0%

Bonus points if it has some sort of anti-authoritarian slogan printed on it


----------



## Belli (6 January 2022)

bellenuit said:


> I don't really want to start a new thread for this so I am appending it here.
> 
> The general consensus is that cloth masks just don't cut it with Omicron and the favoured mask is the N95 standard. But every time I search Google for "best N95 mask Australia" I get overwhelmed with stuff that just makes me more confused than ever.
> 
> Has anyone researched this and is able to offer one or two brands that they would recommend, preferably from national retailers or trustworthy online sites?




@rederob has previously mentioned this site:









						AMD P 2 Respirator Nano-tech Mask, 4-layer (T4)-Ear loops
					

Looking to buy a safe P2 Respirator? AMD P2 Respirators are certified to Australia & NZ standard AS/NZS 1716:2012.




					www.aussiepharmadirect.com.au
				




There is also this, which if you buy three boxes or more, become slightly less expensive (5% discount.)





__





						FFP2 / P2 Respirator Face Mask | 100% Australian Made | Official Australian Stockist
					





					www.greenorganics.com.au


----------



## IFocus (6 January 2022)

bellenuit said:


> I don't really want to start a new thread for this so I am appending it here.
> 
> The general consensus is that cloth masks just don't cut it with Omicron and the favoured mask is the N95 standard. But every time I search Google for "best N95 mask Australia" I get overwhelmed with stuff that just makes me more confused than ever.
> 
> Has anyone researched this and is able to offer one or two brands that they would recommend, preferably from national retailers or trustworthy online sites?




Go with the one Belli / Rob posted, P2 are slightly better just make the mask fit well follow hygiene instructions when removing.


----------



## moXJO (6 January 2022)

bellenuit said:


> I don't really want to start a new thread for this so I am appending it here.
> 
> The general consensus is that cloth masks just don't cut it with Omicron and the favoured mask is the N95 standard. But every time I search Google for "best N95 mask Australia" I get overwhelmed with stuff that just makes me more confused than ever.
> 
> Has anyone researched this and is able to offer one or two brands that they would recommend, preferably from national retailers or trustworthy online sites?



Comfort look for that.

Disposable is best if you don't want to get infected from your mask.

Fit it properly.

Remove it properly.

Disposal and hand sanitise.

Don't touch your face.


----------



## Tisme (6 January 2022)

bellenuit said:


> I don't really want to start a new thread for this so I am appending it here.
> 
> The general consensus is that cloth masks just don't cut it with Omicron and the favoured mask is the N95 standard. But every time I search Google for "best N95 mask Australia" I get overwhelmed with stuff that just makes me more confused than ever.
> 
> Has anyone researched this and is able to offer one or two brands that they would recommend, preferably from national retailers or trustworthy online sites?



My workforce has been issued with the 3M brand for over ten years now. They are the ducksnuts.


----------



## bellenuit (6 January 2022)

Thanks all. I've placed an order for 50 of Aussie Pharma's AMD P2 Respirator Nano-tech Mask, 4-layer (T4)-Ear loops.


----------



## macca (6 January 2022)

Tisme said:


> My workforce has been issued with the 3M brand for over ten years now. They are the ducksnuts.




Oh good, a snack to eat while wearing my mask, must admit I have never tried them, I usually eat cashews


----------



## IFocus (6 January 2022)

bellenuit said:


> Thanks all. I've placed an order for 50 of Aussie Pharma's AMD P2 Respirator Nano-tech Mask, 4-layer (T4)-Ear loops.





I have as well, haven't really needed a proper mask here in WA been using what ever but will do soon having a beard is a net negative. 

Will report back when they arrive for a antidotally appraisal


----------



## macca (21 January 2022)

Mr Fauci talking at a conference in 2019 said

Here’s the transcript:

*Michael Specter:*_ Why don’t we blow the system up? I mean obviously, we can’t just turn off the spigot on the system. We have and then say, hey everyone in the world should get this new vaccine that we haven’t given to anyone yet. But there must be some way that we grow vaccines mostly in eggs the way we did in 1947._

*Fauci:* In order to make the transition from getting out of the tried-and-true egg growing which we know gives us results that can be beneficial, I mean we’ve done well with that. There must be something that has to be much better. You have to prove that this works and then you’ve got to go through all of the clinical trials: phase 1, phase 2, phase 3, and then show that this particular product is going to be good over a period of years. That alone, if it works perfectly, it’s going to take a decade.

*Bright:* There might be a need or even an urgent call for an entity of excitement out there that’s completely disruptive, that’s not beholden to bureaucratic strings and processes.

*Fauci:* So we really do have a problem of how the world perceives influenza and it’s going to be very difficult to change that unless you do it from within and save.. I don’t care what your perception is, we’re going to address the problem in a disruptive and in an iterative way because she does need both.

*Bright:* But it is not too crazy to think that an outbreak of novel avian virus could occur in China somewhere. We could get the RNA sequence from that.. to a number of regional centers if not local, if not even in your home at some point, and print those vaccines on a patch of self-administer.

Joining Fauci, Rick Bright, and Michael Specter at this event were: Margaret Hamburg, Foreign Secretary, National Academy of Medicine, Bruce Gellin, President, Global Immunization, Sabin Vaccine Institute, Casey Wright, CEO, FluLab.

In short, this panel discussion focused on what they perceived as the need for a universal flu vaccine, but they admitted that the old way of producing vaccines was not sufficient for their purposes, and that *they needed some kind of global event where many people were dying to be able to roll out a new mRNA vaccine to be tested on the public.*

They all agreed that the annual flu virus was not scary enough to create an event that would convince people to get a universal vaccine. And as we now know today, about 2 years after this event, that “terrifying virus” that was introduced was the COVID-19 Sars virus.

And so now we know why the flu just “disappeared” in the 2020-21 flu season. It was simply replaced by COVID-19, in a worldwide cleverly planned “pandemic” to roll out the world’s first universal mRNA vaccines.

This was always the goal, and previous efforts through various influenzas, AIDS, Ebola, and other “viruses” were all unsuccessful in leading to the development of a universal vaccine to inject into the entire world’s population.

Margaret Hamburg stated regarding getting a “Universal Vaccine” into the market: “It’s time to stop talking, and it’s time to act… I think it is also because we haven’t had a sense of urgency.”

Michael Specter asked: “Do we need lots of people to die for that sense of urgency to occur?”

Hamburg replied that: “There are already lots of people dying” from the flu each year.

Bruce Gellin stated that basically people just are not afraid enough of the term “the flu.”

There are so many things that are revealed about how Big Pharma and government health authorities think in this panel discussion. For example, they bemoan the fact that if they do too good of a job in public health, then they lose funding to develop products that fight viruses.

Michael Specter states: “It seems to me that one of the curses of the public health world is, if you guys do your job well, everyone goes along well and healthy.”

Hamburg: “And they cut your funding.”

Rick Bright complains that the yearly distribution of flu vaccines is inefficient in terms of collecting data, and in the process actually admits that some vaccines just don’t work well:

“We distribute 150 million doses of the seasonal (flu) vaccines every year, we don’t even know how many people are being vaccinated from the doses that are delivered to the people, which doses they got, and what the real outcome was, so that we can learn from that knowledge base on how to optimize or improve our vaccine. So there are opportunities that we have today…

I think if we uncloaked the poorest performing vaccines in the market place today, it might be very revealing to tell us which of the technologies we have, and allow us to go deeper into those technologies to determine why they are more effective. There are vaccines licenses today that are more effective. I think that we’re just afraid to admit the truth.”

The entire video can be viewed here: https://www.c-span.org/video/?465845-1/universal-flu-vaccine









						Explosive Video of Fauci, HHS in 2019 Plotting “Disruptive” New Outbreak in “China Somewhere” to “Blow the System Up” and Enforce Universal mRNA Vaccination - NewsRescue.com
					

The panelists in the clip discussed making a transition from the "egg growing" old method of making vaccines initiated in "1947" In clip, Fauci complained of having to "prove this thing works" due to the clinical study phases in traditional proof of new therapies which he said takes a decade...




					newsrescue.com


----------



## Humid (22 January 2022)

‘If I Die, I Die’: Meat Loaf Spurned COVID Rules Before Death
					

The singer said in a recent interview that he was getting tired of pandemic restrictions, complaining about “power-mad” flight attendants who make people wear masks.



					www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## Humid (22 January 2022)

Explains it pretty well









						The sweetheart deal that caused testing to collapse
					

A deal that allowed private pathology labs to claim government rebates up to 20 times for one procedure has contributed to the startling collapse of the testing system.




					www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Explains it pretty well
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rorting the great aussie passtime.


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2022)

Now that Novavax is approved for Australia, seriously doing my due diligence on that. I could get my sheeple eartag and go down to the pub, just to meet @Humid's "punters”.


----------



## Humid (22 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Now that Novavax is approved for Australia, seriously doing my due diligence on that. I could get my sheeple eartag and go down to the pub, just to meet @Humid's "punters”.



What has your Dr said


----------



## IFocus (22 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Now that Novavax is approved for Australia, seriously doing my due diligence on that. I could get my sheeple eartag and go down to the pub, just to meet @Humid's "punters”.





TBH if Novavax was around at the start I would likely have opted for it given the chance, on the surface adverse reactions record look quite good.


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2022)

Humid said:


> What has your Dr said
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who is that? Is that you?


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> TBH if Novavax was around at the start I would likely have opted for it given the chance, on the surface adverse reactions record look quite good.



I would actually love to support the Australian product Spikogen(sp?) If possible and if it stands up.

But there doesn't seem to be any sort of date when that might be approved as yet AFAIK


----------



## Humid (22 January 2022)

3 groups?








						Now that science has defanged Covid, it’s time to get on with our lives | Devi Sridhar
					

As with any other ineradicable disease, prevention and treatment can be integrated into society, says public health expert Devi Sridhar




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## grah33 (24 January 2022)

really starting to see the virus pass through now, around me, everywhere.   it's interesting to observe people's experiences

and heaps of people who are vaccinated are getting it too.  

seems that for most of us non-vaccinated, it's not that deadly, but a different thing , yes


----------



## grah33 (24 January 2022)

but yeah, i've seen this thing around me alright, and hearing  stories.  some people  just get tired for quite  a few days, and  it's a new thing for them.  others can get high temps for many days (not good), but that's just one person so far.  might be weaker people, or people with weaker immune systems that have to battle it out
and hearing stories of many people getting it who are vaccinated.


----------



## grah33 (24 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> TBH if Novavax was around at the start I would likely have opted for it given the chance, on the surface adverse reactions record look quite good.





IFocus said:


> TBH if Novavax was around at the start I would likely have opted for it given the chance, on the surface adverse reactions record look quite good.



i was taking care of an infected person and  had no issues at all.  for many people there isn't much of a point to getting vaccinated


----------



## macca (24 January 2022)

grah33 said:


> i was taking care of an infected person and  had no issues at all.  for many people there isn't much of a point to getting vaccinated



In my family two people in same house had it a few days apart, both said like a headcold, both triple vaxed

Only know of one not vaxed who has had it, young bloke tested "because his Mum made him" turned out to be positive, so he went surfing instead of working 

Otherwise, in shared accomm some got it some didn't but they did try to separate in the house.


----------



## Humid (27 January 2022)

Why you may not get COVID-19 even when those around you have it
					

How past exposure to other coronaviruses can stop people from catching COVID-19 even if they live with a positive case.




					www.aljazeera.com


----------



## IFocus (27 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> I have as well, haven't really needed a proper mask here in WA been using what ever but will do soon having a beard is a net negative.
> 
> Will report back when they arrive for a antidotally appraisal





Finally received masks, great fit against the face, very light, easily the most breathable P2 I have every used pretty much as advertised and I thought the price reasonable Ozzy made I recommend them


----------



## Investoradam (27 January 2022)

grah33 said:


> really starting to see the virus pass through now, around me, everywhere.   it's interesting to observe people's experiences
> 
> and heaps of people who are vaccinated are getting it too.
> 
> seems that for most of us non-vaccinated, it's not that deadly, but a different thing , yes



So how many jabs will it take for you to click that it’s about the money from big pharmaceutical?


----------



## bellenuit (28 January 2022)

COVID-19: Boosters increase protection against death from Omicron to 95% among over-50s - UKHSA
					

The agency says that the booster is offering "high levels of protection from hospitalisation and death in the most vulnerable members of our society".




					news.sky.com


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2022)

Could a patent free vaccine end covid ?









						There's a new vaccine, and it's cheap to make, free to reproduce and could bring the pandemic to a swift end
					

Researchers using a decades-old recipe unveil the first COVID vaccine to forego patents and allow drug makers around the world to reproduce it for free, a potential game changer for countries where vaccination rates are behind target.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## macca (24 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Could a patent free vaccine end covid ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The good news it is actually a vaccine rather than a treatment so we might be getting there.

It reads that it is the same type as Novovax so that would raise a question on patent but they both use a proven effective method that has been around for decades so any patent may have expired.


----------



## wayneL (2 March 2022)

First lot of Pfizer docs got dropped today... Surprised by the lack of comments... Or maybe not


----------



## moXJO (3 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> First lot of Pfizer docs got dropped today... Surprised by the lack of comments... Or maybe not



Waiting for the nerds to break it down. It's a boring read.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Waiting for the nerds to break it down. It's a boring read.



It's become a non event because most Australians have been double vaxxed, with avery large percentage of these also boosted.
Add that to Omicron not having much effect on the vaxxed, although still impacting those with comorbidities and high age, then the data has now become almost as meaningless as reporting on the flu.


----------



## wayneL (3 March 2022)

rederob said:


> It's become a non event because most Australians have been double vaxxed, with avery large percentage of these also boosted.
> Add that to Omicron not having much effect on the vaxxed, although still impacting those with comorbidities and high age, then the data has now become almost as meaningless as reporting on the flu.




Varying opinions on that. Moot point for me and Mrs, so just watching with interest in the fullness of time.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Varying opinions on that. Moot point for me and Mrs, so just watching with interest in the fullness of time.



Opinions without data to back them up are as useful as horseshoes without nails.


----------



## macca (3 March 2022)

sadly, the Omicron variant is giving people better immunity than the vaccines.............. Sadly?


----------



## wayneL (3 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Opinions without data to back them up are as useful as horseshoes without nails.



Never said the opinions were without data, as they were based on the data contained within the Pfizer documents. DYOR on that.

But for your information, with the help of cyanoacrylates, horseshoe nails are not strictly necessary. 

Data, bro.


----------



## moXJO (3 March 2022)

rederob said:


> It's become a non event because most Australians have been double vaxxed, with avery large percentage of these also boosted.
> Add that to Omicron not having much effect on the vaxxed, although still impacting those with comorbidities and high age, then the data has now become almost as meaningless as reporting on the flu.



This to. I don't really care as I am already vaxed. I didn't vax my 5 year olds and probably won't till I see more benefit.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Never said the opinions were without data, as they were based on the data contained within the Pfizer documents.



Your opinions typically lack data, and occasionally are not even opinions but uninformed tweets, a bit like @macca's above at post #1388.


wayneL said:


> But for your information, with the help of cyanoacrylates, horseshoe nails are not strictly necessary.



Horseshoes were only needed when humans found uses for them other than meat.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> This to. I don't really care as I am already vaxed. I didn't vax my 5 year olds and probably won't till I see more benefit.



While I am provaxxing, I am not convinced that MRNA type vaccines offer an adequate risk/reward outcome for young people, especially now with Omicron hospitalising comparatively few compared to Delta.  In your situation I would do the same.
Omicron also has a habit of breaking through vaccinations whereas it was less likely with earlier variants, so vaccinating the young no longer offers the prospect of reduced chance of infecting others.


----------



## wayneL (3 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Your opinions typically lack data, and occasionally are not even opinions but uninformed tweets, a bit like @macca's above at post #1388.
> 
> Horseshoes were only needed when humans found uses for them other than meat.



You freaking idiot, Red. I didn't even offer an opinion all I did was highlight that there was some documents dropped. Now take your ad hominem bull**** and p¹ss off 

Jesus!


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## rederob (3 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> You freaking idiot, Red. I didn't even offer an opinion all I did was highlight that there was some documents dropped. Now take your ad hominem bull**** and p¹ss off



You should read what you write and reflect on it:


wayneL said:


> Varying *opinions* on that. Moot point for me and Mrs, so just watching with interest in the fullness of time.



Anyway, I commented on the many posts of yours that have zero data, or are pretty much useless tweets.


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## moXJO (5 March 2022)

I'm hearing of some study that has shown that pfizer converts to DNA in the liver?

This is potentially serious if true and might trigger autoimmune diseases?

Is it disinformation or valid?


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## sptrawler (6 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> I'm hearing of some study that has shown that pfizer converts to DNA in the liver?
> 
> This is potentially serious if true and might trigger autoimmune diseases?



Oh christ don't say that, first the government was canned for using AZ and not getting mRNA quick enough, now if there is an ongoing problem with mRNA, the government will be in the $hit for getting it.
I only hope the media can tell me what to do, it is all so confusing, I guess I will have to watch the project to get some accurate information.


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## moXJO (6 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Oh christ don't say that, first the government was canned for using AZ and not getting mRNA quick enough, now if there is an ongoing problem with mRNA, the government will be in the $hit for getting it.
> I only hope the media can tell me what to do, it is all so confusing, I guess I will have to watch the project to get some accurate information.



I'm not sure of who, size or validity of the study. But I do think a majority of any effects will be passed off as long covid if there were any.


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## wayneL (9 March 2022)

Hmmm, the plot thickens


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## moXJO (10 March 2022)

Intracellular Reverse Transcription of Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 In Vitro in Human Liver Cell Line
					

Preclinical studies of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine BNT162b2, developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, showed reversible hepatic effects in animals that received the BNT162b2 injection. Furthermore, a recent study showed that SARS-CoV-2 RNA can be reverse-transcribed and integrated into the genome of human...




					www.mdpi.com
				




Liver trial


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## moXJO (10 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Intracellular Reverse Transcription of Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 In Vitro in Human Liver Cell Line
> 
> 
> Preclinical studies of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine BNT162b2, developed by Pfizer and BioNTech, showed reversible hepatic effects in animals that received the BNT162b2 injection. Furthermore, a recent study showed that SARS-CoV-2 RNA can be reverse-transcribed and integrated into the genome of human...
> ...



This laboratory study from Lund University, Sweden has generated excitement amongst the anti-vaxxers, who claim that the BNT162b2 (Moderna vaccine) can be reverse transcribed to DNA in a liver cell line known as Huh7.

The idea that vaccines can “permanently alter your DNA” is actually not new. It dates back to the time of the first smallpox vaccine in 1796.

Soon after its introduction, cows were caricatured growing from the human anatomy, suggesting that the human body had been altered by the vaccine. 

The Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines work by instructing our own cells to produce viral proteins, in this instance, spike proteins, which are then recognised by our immune system as foreign.

This in turn triggers the production of long-lasting antibodies, B and T cells that form a defence against any future infection by SARS-CoV-2. 

SARS-COV-2 is an RNA virus which does not have the means to produce a DNA transcript, nor can it integrate itself into a host’s genome.

Likewise, it is not biologically possible for the mRNA from the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines to be reverse transcribed into the human DNA.

Secondly, the vaccine mRNA and the human DNA reside in two different compartments of the cell. Our DNA stays in the nucleus, while the vaccine mRNA is only delivered by the nanoparticle into the cytoplasm, thus never entering the nucleus. There are no transporter molecules that can direct the mRNA into the nucleus.

Thirdly, the petri dish experiment used cancer cell lines (Huh7 was derived from a liver cancer) that behaves very differently from normal cell lines and are not representative of normal human cells.

The Huh7 cells used in this laboratory experiment produces an enzyme called the LINE-1 enzyme, which is a reverse transcriptase that converts mRNA into DNA.

Although normal human cells do contain the LINE-1 gene, it is not expressed. In other words, regular human cells do not produce the LINE-1 enzyme to perform the reverse transcription necessary to convert the RNA to DNA.

Furthermore, a laboratory study is not a clinical study, and cannot be extrapolated to make any conclusion about what would happen in a human body.

Fourthly, the Swedish investigators used abnormally high amounts of vaccine in their studies, which is non-physiological. They injected two micrograms for 200,000 cells, which is very excessive, when the physiological dose in the mRNA vaccine is 30 micrograms for the entire human body (30 trillion cells, or 30,000,000,000,000) 

Finally, a close analysis of the study shows that the investigators did not provide any evidence of genome integration as claimed. No test was undertaken to confirm integration into the cell DNA.

In fact, in concluding the study, the authors pointed out that their study does not show that the Pfizer vaccine integrates with the liver cell DNA, or alters it in any way.


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## moXJO (10 March 2022)

I don't know how correct either of the above are. Simply  counter points.


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## basilio (22 April 2022)

*Dealing with Omicron*

Covid- Omicron has finally visited our household.  My wife had a awful sore throat and dry cough a few days ago. First RAT test didn't show COVID. A couple of days later the two lines showed up.

I notified the relevant medical authorities as required. Same day we get a phone call wanting all the detailed information I had already filled on the site. It was fortunate I was able to do this becasue my wife couldn't talk properly and, unfortunately, the nurse on the other end of the phone had a difficult to understand accent.

But from then on everything became much better. My wife has age and issues with lowered immunity. So when the local health authorities reviewed the case we got another call from a very friendly doctor who took the  time to explain my wife should (strongly)  consider taking a  5 day course of Paxlovid  anti viral medication. Long story short there seems to be very active management of recorded COVID cases to enable close supervision and support for people who are ill at home.

The normal support is a daily check of how people are going  and making sure that if the situation gets out of hand people can scoot to the hospital before it gets too ugly. However in my wife's case, and I gather  any other people at higher risk, there is proactive advice and assistance to get the Paxlovid course. This is intended to knock the virus on its head before it can infect lungs ect. It needs to be taken within the first few days of infection so clearly speed is of the essence.

*We were advised, approved and obtained the drugs within 4 hours.  *A day later and there is already a noticeable improvement. Have to say I am very impressed with the Victorian Health Departments  practical, proactive approach to this issue. I hope our experience has been shared by other people who have fallen sick.

So far, by some miracle, I haven't fallen sick ! I havn't been isolating from my wife and  have essentially resigned myself to getting the bug. But maybe it don't like me ??


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## moXJO (22 April 2022)

basilio said:


> *Dealing with Omicron*
> 
> Covid- Omicron has finally visited our household.  My wife had a awful sore throat and dry cough a few days ago. First RAT test didn't show COVID. A couple of days later the two lines showed up.
> 
> ...



Hope you both recover quickly.


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## IFocus (23 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Hope you both recover quickly.





+ 1


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## wayneL (24 April 2022)

ADE, informed consent etc









						Informed consent disclosure to vaccine trial subjects of risk of COVID‐19 vaccines worsening clinical disease
					

Patient comprehension is a critical part of meeting medical ethics standards of informed consent in study designs. The aim of the study was to determine if sufficient literature exists to require clinicians to disclose the specific risk that COVID‐19 ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## basilio (24 April 2022)

basilio said:


> *Dealing with Omicron*
> 
> 
> So far, by some miracle, I haven't fallen sick ! I havn't been isolating from my wife and  have essentially resigned myself to getting the bug. But maybe it don't like me ??



I was kidding myself.  Felt lousy yesterday tested myself and  showed positive.  Let's see how it plays out. ce la vie


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## wayneL (24 April 2022)

Thread.... Lots of links to studies:


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## finicky (2 November 2022)




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## macca (8 November 2022)

We were chatting with some friends and they were keen to get another shot because of the new strains, I told them that the vax was based on a different strain but that didn't matter to them

I am still amazed by the sheeples acceptance of statements like this from our Chief Medical Officer, Paul Kelly. 

<<The XBB strain, which originated in Singapore, is reported to be resistant to vaccines and antibodies from previous infections and has been detected in NSW, Victoria and Western Australia.>>

and in the next breath he said

<<Australians are urged to make sure they are up to date with their vaccinations>>

You just told us that it doesn't bloody work mate 



			https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/closures/new-covid19-wave-to-hit-australia-as-cases-of-the-virus-rise/news-story/3449b47db22784e9a9298b52e78cac88


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## sptrawler (8 November 2022)

Just been on the Coral Princess for 28 days around Australia, there was a covid outbeak the wife and I didnt get it and we only had the Astra Zenica two shots last year.
The demegraphic on the ship was very elderly, but talking to those that came out of quaranite  the symptoms were only like a mild flu.
The cruise company were very good at limiting the spread and treated those that caught it very well, I was really impressed.


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## macca (8 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Just been on the Coral Princess for 28 days around Australia, there was a covid outbeak the wife and I didnt get it and we only had the Astra Zenica two shots last year.
> The demegraphic on the ship was very elderly, but talking to those that came out of quaranite  the symptoms were only like a mild flu.
> The cruise company were very good at limiting the spread and treated those that caught it very well, I was really impressed.



Thats good mate, it would have ruined your cruise  for sure.

Even the most optimistic figures show that any protection you may have had finshed long ago


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## sptrawler (8 November 2022)

macca said:


> Thats good mate, it would have ruined your cruise  for sure.
> 
> Even the most optimistic figures show that any protection you may have had finshed long ago



It was interesting, everyone had to show a negative self test before bording, but IMO that would have been easily fudged.
However when the ship required a negative test before being allowed to get off at a port of call, the cabin steward had to witness the result, this highlighted people who were asymptomatic.
Those who tested positive had to stay onboard and were confined to cabin, all meals were sent to the room for the isolation period, everyone else on board went on with life as normal
It was all dealt with very profesionally.


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## Knobby22 (15 December 2022)

Saw Novavax are conducting phase 2 trials to finish March next year.

If successful this vaccine will be a yearly one shot, like the flu.


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