# Attack in India



## Sean K (27 November 2008)

Well, been following this all day and I'm in a few minds.

1. How dare they attack Leopolds?

2. Is this really 'terrorism' or is it a local cultural fight?

3. I'm still bamboozelled how warriors think killing innocent people is a good thing. 

4. Fcuk I hope there's no Aussies in the fire.

5. This type of thing starts larger conflicts.

6. If 5 is possible, whose side will Russia and China take?

7. 6 scares me.

8. Or, is this just another Bali bombing, where we all say SHEET! and wait for a conclusion years later..


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## sinner (27 November 2008)

Hi kennas, 

I heard so far of 2 Aussies injured.

The pictures on BBC were horrendous, I saw one of the train station which was part of the attack you could clearly see long red blood trails on the floor where they had dragged off corpses.... 

Also, a close friend and his gf are currently in Mumbai, I hope they are ok.


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## glenn_r (27 November 2008)

MMM radio had a very eye opening telephone conversation at about 9.00am our time with Steve Smith an Aussie expat over there who was in Leopolds at 9.30pm local time when 2 young terrorists threw in 2 grenades and then starting shooting at the white people there, he was talking to MMM inside a cupboard at the rear of the Taj Mahal Hotel, typical Aussie comment was he wished he had a weapon as you could hear gunfire in the back ground.
His was asking the MMM newsroom for an overall situation report because he had no idea of WTF was going on.

Another gutless attack by cowards.


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## wabbit (27 November 2008)

... we'll let you know some of the answers to this soon as we fly into Delhi on Saturday for three days before going to Nepal.

We're going to be keeping our heads down and eyes open!


wabbit


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## Prospector (27 November 2008)

We are off to India in early January.  Chennai and through to Trivandrum.  I thought it was bad enough that my younger son is going to Thailand at the same time, then this morning India erupts.

The English cricket team are currently in India too.  And there are several South Australians caught up in the mess, along with Brooke Satchwell - remember her from TV?  She was in either the Taj or Oberoi, not sure which.

Apparently someone rang the radio this morning saying they were trapped in a broom closet;  hmm, you might ring the Australian High Commission, maybe the Police, but no, this person had the radio on their mobile speed dial   Ah Glenn, that is the one you are talking about.  Think it was legit?

Nepal - prepare for terrible smog, and poop, poop is everywhere.  Hubby was there in January last year and poop is one of his enduring memories.  He found that a Buff was the best thing to cover his mouth and nose, to avoid the cold, and the smell.


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## Sean K (27 November 2008)

Sends a shiver down your spine when you hear of these out of the blue attacks.

I've dined at Leopolds several times and stayed at the Taj. 

Just like people who had been at the bars in Bali that were blown up. 

These sorts of events hit industries and people you don't immediately think about too. This will hit tourism significantly in the short term in India, and on top of the financial crisis will smash tour companies in India. Just like it killed Bali. 

This is all adding up to a bigger event imo.


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## Prospector (27 November 2008)

Have you heard the reasoning behind the attacks?  They were after British and Americans specifically, so


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## Sean K (27 November 2008)

Prospector said:


> Have you heard the reasoning behind the attacks?  They were after British and Americans specifically, so



Yeah, surprised we were't added to the list. 

It's got to be a sub/splinter group trying to align themselves with Al Qaeda, or a direct mission. 

I think it's actually just an internal Indian Muslim v Hindu attack, but because it's targetting western people I have doubts.

Ultimately, I guess it's a bunch of poor unemployed kids who have been brainwashed by religion to commit an act that will take them to heaven.


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## sinner (27 November 2008)

Also, thanks to this news, the fact that Woolworths UK (employer of 25,000) went bankrupt today was completely overlooked.


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## Sean K (27 November 2008)

One thing that troubles me about these things is that the event is OVER!

Except for the movies (The Kingdom) this was THE event, and now we should relax.

The attack has occurred, and this is quite possibly the safest period of time you could now visit India.



Reminds me of 9/11 when we went on high alert and had 24 hr guards and had to close all the curtains during the day and stuff...

It's done!



(of course, now there will be a bigger attack. eeeeek)


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## Naked shorts (27 November 2008)

kennas said:


> 3. I'm still bamboozelled how warriors think killing innocent people is a good thing.




Please refer to this thread for an explanation

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11201


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## mr_delta (27 November 2008)

well, I am still not sure how the Muslim clergy can instill into the brains of the Muslim youth the unsubstantiated stuff like "doors of heaven will open for the jihadis and 72 virgins will welcome you into their arms if they kil the kafirs (non-believers)"...

and these youth cannot even see that this is a load of bollocks and they sign up for such suicide missions...

I think poverty, lack of education & mis-guidance by the Imams push the Muslim youth into such acts of cowardice...

I wish they all rot in hell if they think that this will open the doors of heaven....mongrels....


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## mayk (27 November 2008)

I agree with Kennas, something larger is brewing up. I think a financial and terror shock might result in the emergence of a stronger world government aka UN dominated by US. 


This gangland like slaying seem to have created more of a shock and siege like situation. It is not going to help India's tourism industry in the short term.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (27 November 2008)

Here is some sad news:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/queensland-students-shot-in-mumbai-attacks-20081127-6jka.html

That something larger has always be brewing. Read the books to find out.

Tha attacks on Christians in India in recent years is at the hands of Hindu extremists.


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## disarray (27 November 2008)

the religion of peace hard at work spreading the good word again i see


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## robert toms (27 November 2008)

I just heard Alexander Downer give a summation of what he believes has transpired.
This is part of a long-time Muslim extremist group's opposition to the Hindu -dominated Indian government.
These terrorist attacks have been going on for long before Bin Laden gained prominence.
This attack may not even be their most successful ...the attack on trains a few years ago was more devastating.
Downer seemed to think it was an on-going Indian problem...the Indians have had these problems long before 9/11.
I defer to Downer's knowledge of the Indian situation.
He also said that India has the second largest Muslim population,after Indonesia.


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## classer (27 November 2008)

robert toms said:


> I just heard Alexander Downer give a summation of what he believes has transpired.
> This is part of a long-time Muslim extremist group's opposition to the Hindu -dominated Indian government.
> These terrorist attacks have been going on for long before Bin Laden gained prominence.




lain Danielou (1907-1994) son of French aristocracy, author of numerous books on philosophy, religion, history and arts of India, in his book, Histoire de l' Inde writes:  

"From the time Muslims started arriving, around 632 AD, the history of India becomes a long, monotonous series of  murders, massacres, spoliations, and destructions. It is, as usual, in the name of 'a holy war' of their faith, of their sole God, that the barbarians have destroyed civilizations, wiped out entire races." Mahmoud Ghazni, continues Danielou, "was an early example of Muslim ruthlessness, burning in 1018 of the temples of Mathura, razing Kanauj to the ground and destroying the famous temple of Somnath, sacred to all Hindus. His successors were as ruthless as Ghazni: 103 temples in the holy city of Benaras were razed to the ground, its marvelous temples destroyed, its magnificent palaces wrecked." Indeed, the Muslim policy vis a vis India, concludes Danielou, seems to have been a conscious systematic destruction of everything that was beautiful, holy, refined."


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## Buddy (27 November 2008)

classer said:


> lain Danielou (1907-1994) son of French aristocracy, author of numerous books on philosophy, religion, history and arts of India, in his book, Histoire de l' Inde writes:
> 
> "From the time Muslims started arriving, around 632 AD, the history of India becomes a long, monotonous series of  murders, massacres, spoliations, and destructions. It is, as usual, in the name of 'a holy war' of their faith, of their sole God, that the barbarians have destroyed civilizations, wiped out entire races." Mahmoud Ghazni, continues Danielou, "was an early example of Muslim ruthlessness, burning in 1018 of the temples of Mathura, razing Kanauj to the ground and destroying the famous temple of Somnath, sacred to all Hindus. His successors were as ruthless as Ghazni: 103 temples in the holy city of Benaras were razed to the ground, its marvelous temples destroyed, its magnificent palaces wrecked." Indeed, the Muslim policy vis a vis India, concludes Danielou, seems to have been a conscious systematic destruction of everything that was beautiful, holy, refined."




What hope is there? Pakistan named one of its medium-range missiles in honour of him.


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## Smurf1976 (27 November 2008)

sinner said:


> Also, thanks to this news, the fact that Woolworths UK (employer of 25,000) went bankrupt today was completely overlooked.



Without meaning to trivialise the situation in any way, I note that (1) the markets decline and there's financial trouble (2) THEN the terrorist attacks occur. It's starting to become a pattern now - 9/11, Bali and now this one.

Maybe a coincidence, I really don't know. But I was thinking only a few days ago that with all the financial trouble terrorism wouldn't be far away. I wish I'd been wrong, but unfortunately not.


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## roland (27 November 2008)

*Weekly Jihad Report*

Nov 15 - Nov 21

Jihad Attacks: 38
Dead Bodies: 146
Critically Injured: 222


*Monthly Jihad Report*
October 2008

Jihad Attacks: 174
Countries: 16
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 832
Critically Injured: 1412


Source, http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/


I am in no way suggesting that I share their views, but the above site is certainly "in your face"


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## MRC & Co (27 November 2008)

Just heard one Aussie, 40 something year old man was killed.  Two injured, and 6 missing.  Perhaps taken hostage?

This is one case where I think torture is ok.  Sounds harsh, but these people are the scum of the world.  Powerless, weak, little souls and minds.


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## numbercruncher (27 November 2008)

Dont see many Muslim countries condeming this yet, pakistan has, maybe the rest are impartial ?

An Australian has been confirmed dead in the attack ..... 

India can pretty much say goodbye to her tourist Industry for many years, their markets got closed ..

Also an Aussie digger has just been killed in Afghanistan


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## Green08 (27 November 2008)

Those that are on a war path for any reason to killing an innocent bystander.

(This is going to cause a problem)

Execute them.  Sorry, but you have extremely little chance of changing their mind set. Why should any money be spent on their jailing. Capital punishment is a tippy toe subject.  

I'm going to get crucified

There are those that should be 'put down'.  If you’re religious based reading this then have a reality check.

I was having a long discussion today with a friend. I posed the question to him and (thankfully he thought about it) said it was extremely difficulty, he did not agree with murder, as do I.  

However, where does the line come in behavior, rehab, non-rehabilitation for those permanently chemically or psychologically altered?  When do we STOP and LOOK forward to the future generations and begin with Preventative solutions not Penal solutions, there will always be a monetary situation with looking after those I would deem lifelong altered dangerous individuals.  Personally with my tax I would assist those at the beginning of life cycle.  I have no interest in keeping alive perpetual murderers, rapist, pedophiles or others that are hell bent on harming others.

Half the problem is they know in most societies they go to jail.  They will probably not be killed.  Thus the deterrent to their actions is almost non- existant.

If you think I'm being harsh, have a good look at what some countries currently deem as extreme protective defense.  In these situations I would do the same.

If you're loaded with money and want to keep the penal system alive - I will listen,


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## MRC & Co (27 November 2008)

Green, trouble is, you cannot find them.  But I agree, if you could.

It's not like every Muslim is one of these fundamentalists.

Though, these guys are just lucky they are not around in previous eras.

Rome showed what it did to terrorists.  Wiped out much of the populations in the areas.


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## disarray (27 November 2008)

Jihad Watch is an excellent site managed by robert spencer which ...



> is dedicated to bringing public attention to the role that jihad theology and ideology plays in the modern world, and to correcting popular misconceptions about the role of jihad and religion in modern-day conflicts. We hope to alert people of good will to the true nature of the present global conflict.






> ROBERT SPENCER is the director of Jihad Watch, a program of the David Horowitz Freedom Center, and the author of eight books on Islam and jihad, including the New York Times bestsellers The Truth About Muhammad and The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades). Spencer is a weekly columnist for Human Events and FrontPage Magazine, and has led seminars on Islam and jihad for the United States Central Command, United States Army Command and General Staff College, the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, and the U.S. intelligence community.




Faith Freedom International is an interesting site written by ex-muslims that maintains a particularly aggressive debate against islamic teachings. the author has levelled a $50,000 challenge to islamic scholars to debate him on accusations that mohammed was a narcissist, misogynist, rapist, pedophile, lecher, torturer, mass murderer, cultist, assassin, terrorist and a  looter. it certainly appears that mohammed wasn't a turn the other cheek kinda guy.


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## Green08 (27 November 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> It's not like every Muslim is one of these fundamentalists.




Thank you for you comments however, I was waiting for this.............did you notice I said _individuals? _ I dd not mention any religion or most of the Christians should have gone up in smoke from the past!  Probably not enough wood then or now for any nutty individual from any where - regardless of faith/belief.


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## Bushman (27 November 2008)

Green08 said:


> Those that are on a war path for any reason to killing an innocent bystander.




What is your stance on 'collateral damage then?


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## 2020hindsight (27 November 2008)

disarray said:


> ... mohammed was a narcissist, misogynist, rapist, pedophile, lecher, torturer, mass murderer, cultist, assassin, terrorist and a looter. . it certainly appears that mohammed wasn't a turn the other cheek kinda guy.




jees disarray - that will only inflame things. sheesh.

Great interview on Kerry OBrien's 7.30 Report with the Singapore based Rohan Gunaratna.  One comment he makes is that India and Pakistan have been experiencing unprecedented cooperation against the common enemy AQ,  and this action in Mumbai could well be designed to destabilise that scenario.  

PS Here is a previous article on Rohan Gunaratna :-  
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/20/1058545648013.html


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## prawn_86 (27 November 2008)

MRC & Co said:


> Rome showed what it did to terrorists.  Wiped out much of the populations in the areas.




Thats worked for the US so far in Afghanistan and Iraq * 2 so far hasnt it...


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## Green08 (27 November 2008)

Bushman said:


> What is your stance on 'collateral damage then?




Thank you Bushman, my understanding is single individuals becoming a group should be treated individually should it be evident they acted similarly similtaniously.



> collateral - dictionary results
> 
> col⋅lat⋅er⋅al   /kəˈlÃ¦tərəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation  [kuh-lat-er-uhl] Show IPA Pronunciation
> 
> ...


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## Green08 (27 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Thats worked for the US so far in Afghanistan and Iraq * 2 so far hasnt it...




Trying to contain this to INDIVIDUALS not countries or particular groups.  I wonder if anyone on this continent is willing to make an honest viewpoint?


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## mayk (27 November 2008)

Collateral is the price society has to pay to get rid of bad guys at the cost of good guys. (* A commerical from good guys will be appropriate here )

Now who is good and bad is debatable....But this American simplicity of 'good' and 'bad' is adorable. Listen to any right wing-media nut and he will be preaching how good will prevail over bad/evil. America is always on the side of Good/God/Jessus/Mary/ (period).


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## 2020hindsight (27 November 2008)

mayk said:


> Collateral is the price society has to pay to get rid of bad guys at the cost of good guys. (* A commerical from good guys will be appropriate here )
> 
> Now who is good and bad is debatable....But this American simplicity of 'good' and 'bad' is adorable. Listen to any right wing-media nut and he will be preaching how good will prevail over bad/evil. America is always on the side of Good/God/Jessus/Mary/ (period).



Thanks mayk ... having thought about it for a few minutes, I agree with you ...
:iagree:

It ain't simple ...

And it's too easy to fall for the trap of being the manipulated party rather than the clever party in all this  .


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## Green08 (27 November 2008)

I'm an ANTHESTIST (just the beginning) - NONE BELIEVER IN ANYTHING (especially subjective media and close minded people - I can tell this is not a forum to make friends) BUT WHAT I SEE AND CREATE AROUND ME.

Gessh........ If I had one wish - my own planet!!! 

Should anyone find, one at a descend price, let me know (PM is fine) @ 200 Million Miles from Earth no living things unless I give an invitation!  The official advertising has commenced!

I can see that dinner has taken place.  Let us talk, dialogue can remedy many concerns.


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## 2020hindsight (27 November 2008)

Hey Green - that article on tonight's 7.30 Report looks into the possibility / probability that this is a Moslem extremist reaction to Hindu extremism   An element of truth? I know the Indian Govt would deny it , but maybe, where there's smoke there's fire ... 

As I have said a few times .. (pretty hackneyed) ...  All extremists should be shot


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## Green08 (27 November 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> As I have said a few times .. (pretty hackneyed) ...  All extremists should be shot




Ahhhhh yes and then we would be left with 5% of the population. 

Do you think we can officiate a nuttiness (fundimental for anything) scale for punishment?


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 November 2008)

Green08 said:


> Ahhhhh yes and then we would be left with 5% of the population.
> 
> Do you think we can officiate a nuttiness (fundimental for anything) scale for punishment?




Blame.

Blaming the majority for the nuttiness of the few seems to be a pervading argument of the left.

It will work itself out.

India is a vibrant democracy without the shackles of a well supped left.

China and Russia will applaud.

So will we.

gg


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## Green08 (27 November 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Blame.
> 
> Blaming the majority for the nuttiness of the few seems to be a pervading argument of the left.
> 
> ...




I had wondered where you had gone..good to see your appearance

You've got this magnet thing happening it appears, that any thing challenging your system of belief is LEFT.......are you completely right, is centered and a reasonable thought of no avail?

I have personal friends in Russia and China and hope for their own sake and  'vibrant democractical' position in the world they become equal.  (here come the questions)

Should anyone dominate over another NO. ahh the perfect world.  

GG I've missed your debate.


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 November 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Blame.
> 
> Blaming the majority for the nuttiness of the few seems to be a pervading argument of the left.
> 
> ...




Green, you Yanks of the left like to distract folk from the argument.

Argue 

gg


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## Green08 (27 November 2008)

Must say not only are we on climatic intrusion of temperature but space - so are copy and past of entire posts I understand you like to make a point.

Yes Yank, Yink, Yenk,  what ever appeases you.

Individuals should be dealt with.  I assume from your post that you have no opposition to the unfolding behavior in India?? If so? What would you do to quell it?


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 November 2008)

Green08 said:


> Must say not only are we on climatic intrusion of temperature but space - so are copy and past of entire posts I understand you like to make a point.
> 
> Yes Yank, Yink, Yenk,  what ever appeases you.
> 
> Individuals should be dealt with.  I assume from your post that you have no opposition to the unfolding behavior in India?? If so? What would you do to quell it?




You are unfolding mon Green.

Argue the point.

gg


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## MRC & Co (27 November 2008)

prawn_86 said:


> Thats worked for the US so far in Afghanistan and Iraq * 2 so far hasnt it...




Actually, I know a guy who works in Afghanistan as a lawyer, and he says it's nothing like the media reports.


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## Green08 (27 November 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> gg




Shall I 'copy' a famous QLD'er "please explain?"


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## disarray (27 November 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> jees disarray - that will only inflame things. sheesh.




well yeah, islam is highly sensitive to criticism, even comics can trigger riots and murder across the globe. filmmakers, authors, academics, comic artists, comedians, artists, politicians and media companies have all been killed / threatened / had a fatwah put out because of a perceived criticism of islam.

most people bow to pressure because of fear of death or political correctness, and all this does is encourage the islamists to keep on pushing. this constant accomodation and subversion of our own beliefs and structures to cater to the whims of a minority is all just part of the procedure to create dar al islam (the house of peace). anywhere not dar al islam is dar al harb (the house of war). any pieces falling into place yet?

muslim only days at the pool. exclusion from communal activities for muslims. acknowledgement and welfare benefits for polygamist marriages (for muslims only of course). when a muslim takes an oath on the koran it has to be wrapped in cloth and presented because the filthy kaffir can't be allowed to sully the holy book. it doesn't really matter though because taqiyyah allows muslims to lie to the infidels anyway.

so given the well documented nature of the prophet mohammed, and an unbroken history of war against all non-muslims, why are people so surprised when atrocities like this occur? again. and again. and again. what does it take for people to stand up and say "ENOUGH" and challenge the philosophy without apologists jumping up and down screaming about racism and islamophobia? there's a pattern there, people just don't want to acknowledge it because it will shatter the delicate charade of multicultural harmony. accommodation doesn't work against people who want to take over the world, but then the west doesn't learn from history very well.

a common defense is the "its only a tiny minority committing the attacks". thousands of them. all over the world. but its only a tiny minority. that's all well and good, and i respect an individuals right to believe in whatever they want, and live their lives how they want. but when a philosophy / political system / religion like islam openly preaches and practices objectionable behaviours like honour killings, death sentences for apostasy, homosexuality and adultery, and the relegation of women to chattel (with rights to beat, rape or divorce with words), then we are allowed to attack these beliefs the same we would attack anti-semitism (openly preached and practiced by muslims), especially when they are living in our society.

you gotta do it while you can though, the UN is looking at passing resolutions to make it illegal to criticise islam. because we all know criticism bad, tolerance good. even towards the intolerant and intolerable.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (28 November 2008)

> you gotta do it while you can though, the UN is looking at passing resolutions to make it illegal to criticise islam.




Now if this is true it is very disturbing. Not only is it an attack on free speech and the rights of the individual to converse in active healthy criticism, but it is a sellout on all other religions. 

Do you have a source for that dissaray?


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## sammy84 (28 November 2008)

I was waiting at the airport in Kuala Lumper on connection to go to India today. Then I heard about what happened. To make matters worse is that is was going to stay at the Oberoi. So I cancelled my flight and am now stuck in Kuala Lumper trying to work out what I amk going to do. I was meant to be travelling on from India and going to other places, now all my travel plans are in disaray. Still I should count myself lucky. What to do now..anyone have good recommendations for a lone traveller in Asia? Also, does anyone know If I will be able to claim the lost flights on travel insurance?

Sammy


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## It's Snake Pliskin (28 November 2008)

sammy84 said:


> I was waiting at the airport in Kuala Lumper on connection to go to India today. Then I heard about what happened. To make matters worse is that is was going to stay at the Oberoi. So I cancelled my flight and am now stuck in Kuala Lumper trying to work out what I amk going to do. I was meant to be travelling on from India and going to other places, now all my travel plans are in disaray. Still I should count myself lucky. What to do now..anyone have good recommendations for a lone traveller in Asia? Also, does anyone know If I will be able to claim the lost flights on travel insurance?
> 
> Sammy




Go to Singapore for a few days, then go up to Penang Island in Malaysia and then over to Thailand. I have travelled that area of the world a few times. In Singapore there is an active Indian population and the Indian quarter has a big Indian temple just like India, but I imagine it is cleaner. Why not go through to Cambodia, or over to Vietnam? You could also fly from KL over to Sabah or Sarawak and see the Borneo jungle. I have seen it and experienced the area which was well worth the visit. Get a Lonely Planet book and read up. 
Have fun.


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## disarray (28 November 2008)

from Jihad Watch



> Religious groups and free-speech advocates are banding together to fight a United Nations resolution they say is being used to spread Sharia law to the Western world and to intimidate anyone who criticizes Islam.
> The non-binding resolution on “Combating the Defamation of Religion” is intended to curtail speech that offends religion -- particularly Islam.
> 
> Pakistan and the Organization of the Islamic Conference introduced the measure to the U.N. Human Rights Council in 1999. It was amended to include religions other than Islam, and it has passed every year since.
> ...




from the UN (down the bottom of the page)



> Resolution on Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Forms of Intolerance, Follow-Up and Implementation of the Durban Declaration and Programme of Action
> 
> Resolution on Combating Defamation of Religions
> 
> ...




so stop trying to identify islam with terrorism, violence and human rights violations ok?? it's all just a big misunderstanding and the west has to be more tolerant of the violence it is subjected to in the name of islam.

for those that missed it ....



> ... emphasizes that the exercise of the right to freedom of expression carries with it special duties and responsibilities, and may therefore be subject to certain restrictions




and a big lol from the saudi contingent



> Saudi Arabia called for tolerance of all religions and called on the international community to respect Muslims and their feelings in accordance with all monotheistic religions




because the saudis are so tolerant of other religions themselves .....


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## Bobby (28 November 2008)

disarray said:


> well yeah, islam is highly sensitive to criticism, even comics can trigger riots and murder across the globe. filmmakers, authors, academics, comic artists, comedians, artists, politicians and media companies have all been killed / threatened / had a fatwah put out because of a perceived criticism of islam.
> 
> most people bow to pressure because of fear of death or political correctness, and all this does is encourage the islamists to keep on pushing. this constant accomodation and subversion of our own beliefs and structures to cater to the whims of a minority is all just part of the procedure to create dar al islam (the house of peace). anywhere not dar al islam is dar al harb (the house of war). any pieces falling into place yet?
> 
> ...




I support your post , just change that aviator 

Bob.


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## kitehigh (28 November 2008)

Some good posts there Disarray.  I to am tired of the western countries being so apologetic to this pathetic cult that they call Islam.  In fact all religions are just a cult really.
Islam is especially popular to the poor and uneducated as they are easily duped into believing the rubbish that comes out of these Mullahs mouths.

Now back to these ongoing attacks in Mumbai. 

These pathetic creatures even have the hide to call themselves Holy warriors.  Yeh takes a real lot of courage to shoot down innocent unarmed civilian!!  They are truly pathetic human beings.  If  you want to see real warriors you only have to look as far a our soldiers in Afghanistan.  On that note we should take a minute to remember another fine example of an Australian Soldier who was killed in Afghanistan fighting this scourge.   My condolences to his family.

I hope they manage to track everyone of these terrorist ,and first torture them to gather more intelligence on the rest of the terrorist network and than shoot them with bullets socked in pork blood.  Make sure they also denied a muslim burial.  They should also hunt down these immans preaching this hate and have them tortured and killed also.  I'm sorry but there is no rehabilitation for these types of people, they are behind normal help.


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## Sean K (28 November 2008)

Sh!te. 

*Fears for 26 Australians in Mumbai hotels*
Paola Totaro, London 
November 28, 2008 - 6:30AM 

Up to 26 Australians may be holed up in the two stricken hotels in Mumbai and cannot yet be accounted for, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Stephen Smith has confirmed.

Speaking at an emergency press conference at the Australian High Commission in London about 5am (AEDT) Mr Smith said he had spoken just minutes before to the Indian Minister for External Affairs, Mr Mukherjee, and had confirmed the death of one Australian and while he could not confirm the death of a second, he had "grave concerns".


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## Green08 (28 November 2008)

kitehigh said:


> Yeh takes a real lot of courage to shoot down innocent unarmed civilian!!  They are truly pathetic human beings.
> 
> They should also hunt down these immans preaching this hate and have them tortured and killed also.  I'm sorry but there is no rehabilitation for these types of people, they are beyond normal help.




I support Dissary and Kitehigh,

Terrorist and any individual who use that pathetic emotion to make a point - insecure.

Yes - all religions are a cult grouping together feeling stronger as a pack. Some just make it more obvious than others.  Demonizing any act or thought that doesn't fit into their mode of thinking.  Prehistoric thinking.

Should they pass that act on Combating Defamation of Religions - democracy out the window - Peer pressure. We are turning into a world of prissy humans. Pathetic.

George Calin had a great piece on God.  "He can manage the universe but he just can't manage money, he always needs more money".  Places were people go to find acceptance and forgiveness - basically throwing their responsibility out the window and we accept that!  

The only thing that will save you, look after you, be there for you, sort out your problems, give courage is YOU and you need to search in yourself to change.  It is all about responsibility.  Get that right and your empowerment is unlimited. 

Make your thinking clear and act appropriately.

Siting God for any action you are no better than your enemy.  Look at the USA  the “God be with our boys, God will bring them home  etc”.  Really? I though an airplane would bring them home.  Politics and Religion = recipe for disaster.  

I wonder in my life if a Prime Minister or President anywhere in the world could be elected with no belief system but Self Belief and Determination making choices according to situation.  If it means Capital Punishment then do it.


----------



## Pommiegranite (28 November 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> India can pretty much say goodbye to her tourist Industry for many years,




Will not happen.

India is too large and diverse for tourists not to go there. Its like saying the US could kiss tourism goodbye for many years after 9/11.

Also a good example would be Egypt after the massacre at the Valley of the Kings a few years back. Yes tourism slowed immediately afterwards, but then picked up. As humans we always end up thinking "if its going to happen its going to happen"...."or lightening doesn't strike twice in the same place".

That doesn't mean I would accept an all expenses paid holiday in Baghdad though!


----------



## Green08 (28 November 2008)

On CNN

33 hours 48 mins after

123 dead
327 injuried

Power cut to the area.

Should they be lucky enough to get the bastards alive - firing squad!


----------



## Buddy (28 November 2008)

Islam the religion, I am ambivalent about.
Islam the culture/way of life, it's pathetic. I will maintain my right to criticise it and condemn it as 6th century stuff. Should be thrown in the bin. Anyone who believes or follows this rubbish shows up and being manipulated by stupid power hungry old men.  I'll have none of this rubbish in Australia, and the Poms are just plain stupid for allowing it to get out of control in the U.K.. And OK, you can call me all the names under the sun, big deal. Them are the facts Jack.  



But back to the point...... This is obviously a meticulously planned precise attack. Whether it has direct government (officially sanctioned) support from Pakistan, I doubt.  But I suspect the funding and logistics support would have come from there, probably parts of the military. I would suggest that the over riding aim of this attack is to destabilise the relations between India and Pakistan, with the ultimate aim of getting Kasmir under some sort of Muslim/Pakistani/Taliban/whoever as long as it's not Indian, control. Shortly followed by the same with India. India really started turning to sh&% about 1000 years ago when Ghazni invaded it; this is just part of the effort to continue that invasion.

Time will tell as to how successful this is.


----------



## Sean K (28 November 2008)

Buddy said:


> But back to the point...... This is obviously a meticulously planned precise attack. Whether it has direct government (officially sanctioned) support from Pakistan, I doubt.  But I suspect the funding and logistics support would have come from there, probably parts of the military.



These people are NO DOUBT a product of the Madrasah's: encouraged, supported, financed, and in every way, an intergral part of Islamic culture, particularly Pakistan. 

They brainwash.
They teach fear.
They teach hate.

End result: fundamentalism and extremism.

Sort of like what Catholic Schools used to be like, but have had to adapt because they were losing clients....

And, sort of like the bible belt of the US of A....


----------



## numbercruncher (28 November 2008)

They now think the Islamofascists have killed 4 Aussies ...... and 20 unaccounted for


----------



## inrodwetrust (28 November 2008)

Make no mistake, this is the true intentions of the Islamofascists  -

Times of India - Turkish couple let off by terrorists for being Muslims



> All the hostages were asked to reveal their religion. When the Muezzinoglus said they were Muslims, their captors told them that they would not be harmed. The other three Caucasian women were removed from the room next day, and the terrorists informed the Muezzinoglus that they had been shot.




Were they Christians or Jews? It's a religious war... not terrorism.

When will the leaders of the West & the Media acknowledge that?

It will be interesting to see how much airplay this will get locally. I suspect not much.


----------



## Green08 (28 November 2008)

CNN a while back some terrorists have a Rabbi and his family hostage. Cowards!

Makes you question how they missed this one coming with all the drama about terrorist precautions.

It really could happen anywhere and probably will increase. 

Execute extreme fundamentalist as they're found anywhere I don't care how the faster the better.

One obvious element if people think this is a 'normal' recession or depression, I don't. They didn't have terrorists with the knowledge, training, access to high speed information transactions in the past.  Unless serious decisive action is taken the world will be an awful place in the future for our children.


----------



## Calliope (28 November 2008)

I hope the Indians don't make the same mistake as the Americans and take any of these terrorists alive. Terrorists in jail soon become the focal point of all the wooly minded civil  rights nutters that thrive in Western democracies. They want these people to be treated like other citizens. And when they get out of Guantanamo they are welcomed back home as heroes.

The Brits are the worst. They have soft laws against terrorists, and they probably have more pontential terrorists than any other Western country


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (28 November 2008)

During the Second World War democracies faced fascism and triumphed.

Islamofascism has had some temporary gains and in the process has had some of the weaker elements of democracy exculpate their crimes because of Islam's perceived marginalisation by the West over the past 700 years.

It is gratifying that many posters on this forum with previous woolly views on rights and responsibilities, now appear to support an assertive push to rid the world of these godbothering monsters. 

Let us hope that this change of heart towards these murderers continues and we can be rid of Islamofascism.  

gg


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (29 November 2008)

Calliope said:


> I hope the Indians don't make the same mistake as the Americans and take any of these terrorists alive. Terrorists in jail soon become the focal point of all the wooly minded civil  rights nutters that thrive in *Western democracies*. They want these people to be treated like other citizens. And when they get out of Guantanamo they are welcomed back home as heroes.
> 
> The Brits are the worst. They have soft laws against terrorists, and they probably have more pontential terrorists than any other Western country




Read this article on western appeasement. It makes me sick.

http://www.city-journal.org/printable.php?id=2567


----------



## privatename (29 November 2008)

The images are awful, the crowd shots show so many injured, they all have bandages on their heads.


The snipers were targetting the locals, they all had laser sights focused in between their eyes.


----------



## xyzedarteerf (29 November 2008)

i found this listing of the victims of this attack,
it list 3 aussies being deceased, am not sure of the accuracy of the list.
please note that the list contains names and surname of the victims.
Mumbai Help blog source.
Victims List


----------



## IFocus (29 November 2008)

disarray said:


> well yeah, islam is highly sensitive to criticism, even comics can trigger riots and murder across the globe. filmmakers, authors, academics, comic artists, comedians, artists, politicians and media companies have all been killed / threatened / had a fatwah put out because of a perceived criticism of islam.
> 
> most people bow to pressure because of fear of death or political correctness, and all this does is encourage the islamists to keep on pushing. this constant accomodation and subversion of our own beliefs and structures to cater to the whims of a minority is all just part of the procedure to create dar al islam (the house of peace). anywhere not dar al islam is dar al harb (the house of war). any pieces falling into place yet?
> 
> ...




Disarray your post's on these sort of subjects always resonate with me could not have put it better.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (29 November 2008)

The site below gives the most up to date information on what's happening at present in Mumbai in my opinion.

http://www.indianexpress.com/

gg


----------



## Miner (29 November 2008)

I was recovering from shocks while finding out our Indian operational personnel are unaffected. 

By God's blessings  my wife and little daughter are luckily safe while holidaying in India. 

What has happened in India by the terrorists are unthinkable, punishable, disgusting and sinnisterism notwithstanding there were many communal riots, war between Pakistan and India in 65, 71, and recently Kargil.

With some knowledge on the subcontinent IMO the recent incident is not a communal incident but a barbarian terrorist attack. It was probably to discredit India and bringing attention of Western countries by finding out people with British and American passport holders. 

Before we think that all Muslims in India are bad please consider few facts :

India had two Muslims as its Presidents.

Last President Dr Abdul Kalam was also the Head of India's Nuclear Innovation and has the knowledge of Indian defence secret than many HIndu Indians 

India had a woman Prime Minister and currently a lady President 

India has 145 Million Muslims co existing with Hindus, Christians (all kinds Catholics, Protestants, Anglicans, etc) , Buddhists, Jainis, Sikhs, Jews, Bahais (they have a temple right in the heart of Indian capital) and oters

India is the second largest Muslim country in the world. 

Indian Parliament has many Muslim Ministers, MPs, MLAs

Indian Parliament has 5% seats reserved for Christians to protect minorities.

So the terrorists are essentially sinister killers and have no faith on any religion. 

Thanks to South African Commandos who joined hands with Indian Commandos to rescue the hostages. US, UK and Israel intelligence already reached and working with Indian intelligence in rescue mission and counter terrorist attack - this is called international friendship. On the contrary our own government yet to send an emergency rescue team.  What a poor show by Rudd and his team considering four of our countrymen have died in Mumbai and many have detained. 

Pakistan has been trying to destablise India (obvious economic rivalry and political milage) and to detract the attention to India

Some stories published from Indian Newspaper will probably give some relevant news links

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081129/jsp/frontpage/story_10182168.jsp
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081129/jsp/frontpage/story_10181980.jsp
http://publication.samachar.com/top.../fullstory.php?id=14808276&hcategory=13709718
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...gence_aid_to_India/rssarticleshow/3770950.cms


----------



## Green08 (29 November 2008)

Agree Miner, these terrorists have selected an opportune time to attempt destabilization of India and her neighbors.  Indian elections are due soon.

There was an interview with a Canadian who escaped the Taj.  From what he witnessed they are indiscriminate in shooting.  He said if you looked foreign you were dead.  

Other terror specialist are saying 40 -80 involved with money transaction, organising equipment, transport etc. 

The back packs were laddened for along sit out. Taking the hotel with food - stragetic - could keep them going longer than expected. So we are distracted from other things they could be doing for the 'next surprise'.  Wasting resources media, money, tactical when they are planning 3 steps ahead.  Wake up and see how they work. 

As I mentioned how did the authorities or anyone not even have the slightest sense to this event? People become lax with time.

Have the terrorist out done all the high tech equipment we have again?  
Losing faith in the government is easy.  Unfortunately it is usually the people who make a stand, not the elected government (anywhere). 

I expect better protection for my vote and tax.  I expect them to know of any instability. Any hint of unwelcome acts on our soil and deal with it severely. Not botch it up performance style for the media.

Extremists are everywhere, it is not a matter of if but when.

You don't have to be paranoid, just be aware.  These nutters have honed basic instincts of survival, what have we done - go to the beach, shopping?  There are steps beyond boy scouts.  You can't expect to rival psychological evil with passive psychology.

Not all Muslims are dreadful eggs.  There are many Muslims who are great humans.


----------



## trillionaire#1 (29 November 2008)

seems to be all over now ,commandos now have the task of checking rooms for booby traps ,then investigators can try and piece this mess together.


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 November 2008)

trillionaire#1 said:


> seems to be all over now ,commandos now have the task of checking rooms for booby traps ,then investigators can try and piece this mess together.




wow= thanks trillionaire


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/29/2433321.htm
> Taj hotel siege ends, militants killed
> By South Asia correspondent Sally Sara and wires
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 November 2008)

Garrick Harvison freed 
I was so concerned that his giving away clues "on the 14th floor" etc - was unwise to put out there on the radio waves
You never know who'e listening. 

And his boss talking to him all night (whatever) to keep him awake earlier in the siege - great mates apparently 

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24723569-661,00.html


> AN Australian who spent 40 hours trapped in a hotel at the centre of Mumbai's day and night of terror has been freed, according to a friend.
> 
> Mr Harvison was rescued in an precision operation co-ordinated by his friend Gary Blom in Australia who was in contact with Australian Federal Police who were communicating with Indian crack commando teams inside the hotel.
> 
> ...


----------



## numbercruncher (29 November 2008)

I see they think a couple of these parasites could be poms ....




> Mumbai's chief minister Vilasrao Deshmukh said two "British-born Pakistanis" were among eight gunmen captured alive during bloody shoot-outs with soldiers.
> 
> The Daily Telegraph has also learnt that the terrorists monitored international reaction to the attacks on British newspaper websites and on Arabic websites popular in the north of England.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/3534784/Mumbai-attacks-Are-they-British.html


Its about time the English/British started getting their house in order !


----------



## 2020hindsight (29 November 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> I see they think a couple of these parasites could be poms ...



wow nc ...
If that's true ... 

Irrespective of what I might have posted elsewhere (Sharia Law thread) - you'd think that - at first glance anyway - that the Brits have done their fair share for the friendly absorption of immigrants from the Commonwealth.   And don't deserve this sort of payback 

PS One can only hope they've overstepped the mark - and public sympathies (hearts and minds etc ) move against them   - 

i.e If there really was a God, it would all backfire 



> One commando leader described how suspicions of a British link had been raised when investigators examined BlackBerry mobile phones seized from some of the captured Islamic extremists, which they had used to monitor the internet.
> 
> General Noble Thamburaj, head of India's southern command, told the Telegraph: "There was a lot of content from the English media, not just in London but the Urdu and Arabic sites that are very strong in the north of England.
> 
> ...


----------



## roland (29 November 2008)

I'm a little confused that with 15 armed "terrorists" they didn't inflict more damage.


----------



## trillionaire#1 (29 November 2008)

the death toll stands around 200,so a disgraceful  mass murder,
but yeah with automatic weapons and grenades it could have been even worse.


----------



## Miner (30 November 2008)

Latest news is all terrrorists who invaded the place excepting one has been killed.

Hope the alive one will feed data to Indian police about their origin and some clues to stop the next step of their plan.

37 Australians still missing, 5 Americans dead. at least 200 people dead.

Some clips of the videos including the commandos rescue plan in case you have not seen it

*http://broadband.indiatimes.com/*


----------



## trillionaire#1 (30 November 2008)

wow ,Miner are there still that many aussies missing
tensions are getting higher than normal between India and Pakistan now
just what an unstable world needs huh.


----------



## Sean K (30 November 2008)

The Muslims that did the London bombings in 2005 were Poms too weren't they?

I think you could say that if the Indian guys had UK citizenship it's because there's just so many Central Asian Muslims living in London. 


In regard to these guys just been criminals and it not been based on Islam, I may disagree to some extent. If they didn't have Islam as a vehicle, or psychological power base, these events would not have occurred. It's the same vehicle that Muhammad used to wage war through Mesopotamia. The same vehicle Moses used to take Canaan. The same vehicle the knights used for the Crusades, the same vehicle the Catholics/IRA of Northern Ireland used to wage terror against Britain, and the same vehicle that OSB, and the wannabes, are using to attack the West.

It's organised, centralised, doctinised, dogmatised, religion.


----------



## jeflin (30 November 2008)

It is shocking that extremists can just walk into a public place and start claiming innocent lives and destroy properties. 

For what!! Just to fight for a cause or let the world know of their ideals? What will happen if the same tragedy was played out on their family? 

True, inequality exists in our world, there are oppression and unfair rules set by dictators and capitalists to further enrich themselves. But terrorism is not the way to level the playing field.


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## Happy (1 December 2008)

jeflin said:


> It is shocking that extremists can just walk into a public place and start claiming innocent lives and destroy properties.
> 
> For what!! Just to fight for a cause or let the world know of their ideals?




Slightly off topic, but I would like to see more weapons strategically distributed through Australian community, to improve private citizens fighting chance in case something similar happens here.


----------



## Sean K (1 December 2008)

Happy said:


> Slightly off topic, but I would like to see more weapons strategically distributed through Australian community, to improve private citizens fighting chance in case something similar happens here.



I don't think we're there quite yet, but we do have a good civil defence network that most do not know about.

They actually teach a course at Emergency Management Australia in Mt Macedon, Victoria called Management of Civil Defence Operations, which I completed a number of years ago. 

It's not about Militia taking up arms, but more about how the civilian community can assist major disaster, including military attack. There are some other bizaar organisations out there (mainly rural QLD...lol) who are more into the civil defence by arms perspective. They are treated more like crazed radicals by our intelligence and policing community. However, if we were ever invaded, these types of people would be in the hills running a decent gorilla campaign I imagine. Actually, I think if Australia was ever really attacked and ocupied, that we would put up a pretty bloody good defence.


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## 2020hindsight (1 December 2008)

The captured terrorist is from Kaskmir I believe. 

According to an Indian friend, during the division of India & Pakistan, Kashmir was included in India apparently because the ruler of that state at that time was a Hindu (despite the fact that the majority of the population were Moslem).  Logically you could solve the problem by giving it to Pakistan. But the problem is that it has massive military significance ( commanding high ground etc). 

Meanwhile, Barack Obama is treating Kashmir as a "critical task" for his administration, ...   maybe appointing Bill Clinton to try to help sort it out -- (Bill once described Kashmir as "the most dangerous place in the world", "nuclear tinderbox") etc  


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24608689-25837,00.html



> Kashmir role on cards for Clinton
> Bruce Loudon, South Asia correspondent | November 06, 2008
> Article from:  The Australian
> 
> ...


----------



## Happy (1 December 2008)

kennas said:


> I don't think we're there quite yet, but we do have a good civil defence network that most do not know about.
> 
> They actually teach a course at Emergency Management Australia in Mt Macedon, Victoria called Management of Civil Defence Operations, which I completed a number of years ago.





I don’t know what legal rights citizens have in India in regards to carry weapons, but if 10 people can make so much for so long I hate to think what it would be like here.

If it were decided to hit 100 or 1000 targets simultaneously, where would defence network start?

Pity that all citizens can do is become sitting ducks in cabinets and under beds.


----------



## OK2 (1 December 2008)

Happy said:


> I don’t know what legal rights citizens have in India in regards to carry weapons, but if 10 people can make so much for so long I hate to think what it would be like here.
> 
> If it were decided to hit 100 or 1000 targets simultaneously, where would defence network start?
> 
> Pity that all citizens can do is become sitting ducks in cabinets and under beds.




Not exactly what happened in the King Street shooting. Do your home work.

There is a vastly greater chance of an armed civillian turning psycho and shooting people than there is of a terrorist attack. How many examples would you like? Port Arthur, Punt Road, ..............................................


----------



## Happy (1 December 2008)

OK2 said:


> Not exactly what happened in the King Street shooting. Do your home work.
> 
> There is a vastly greater chance of an armed civillian turning psycho and shooting people than there is of a terrorist attack. How many examples would you like? Port Arthur, Punt Road, ..............................................





Why nut cases have to affect my right to defend myself is beyond me, but they did already, you win. 
Bullet and explosion proof bunker might be the only sitting duck aide.

Don’t want to get off topic too much and luckily this way of argument wasn’t used in case of motor vehicle’s related deaths.


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## moXJO (1 December 2008)

OK2 said:


> There is a vastly greater chance of an armed civillian turning psycho and shooting people than there is of a terrorist attack. How many examples would you like? Port Arthur, Punt Road, ..............................................




Off topic but here is our very own conspiracy theory of Port Arthur. 

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/palies1.htm


----------



## Sean K (1 December 2008)

moXJO said:


> Off topic but here is our very own conspiracy theory of Port Arthur.
> 
> http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/palies1.htm



Are you just taking the piss, or really believe that?


----------



## moXJO (1 December 2008)

kennas said:


> Are you just taking the piss, or really believe that?




lol no I don't believe it. I just did a search on martin Bryant out of interest of what happened to him and all these types of cover-up sites came up. Funny how these things are molded into conspiracies. I was not expecting that when I looked up his name.

Apologies to anyone that had a direct link to Port Arthur.

Another example
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Australia/portarthur2.htm


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## Miner (1 December 2008)

Some people have no regret for their misdeed.

http://broadband.indiatimes.com/toishowvideo/3776751.cms

http://broadband.indiatimes.com/toishowvideo/3779362.cms
http://broadband.indiatimes.com/toishowvideo/3779965.cms

Here u go with the interview from the last lived terrorist among the killers in Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai


----------



## Happy (2 December 2008)

After every attack the world has another reaction to specific new threats.
What it’ll be this time?

So far we’ve had:
Metal detectors at the airports
Fluid quantity restrictions in personal luggage
Biometric photographs in passports
Marshals on flights

US have fingerprint-checking facility at the airports.

World has widely spread phone-tapping allowances.

Since in hotels in India, entry was made through water and staff access area, security will be beefed up there.

Maybe with CCTV cameras there will be more live supervision for faster reaction time, possibly some strategically placed remotely activated tassers, remotely activated armoured isolation doors.

Maybe there will be marshals every few floors at the hotel, maybe some staff will be allowed to carry weapons.

In parallel, better infiltration of harm motivated groups would be good too.


----------



## Green08 (3 December 2008)

> India Rules Out War, Asks Pakistan to Deport 20 Terror Suspects
> 
> India ruled out military retaliation against Pakistan after last week’s attacks in Mumbai and asked its neighbor to extradite 20 people suspected of involvement in terrorism, *including the alleged mastermind of the rampage*.
> 
> “No one is talking about military action,” Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee said in New Delhi yesterday. In a diplomatic protest note, India asked “for the handover of those persons who are settled in Pakistan and are fugitives as per Indian law,” he said.



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aj5a6zdMdxUE&refer=home

And the end result after many killed
Hundreds injuried 
Mass cost to infastructure
Ruined lives
Many other costs on various levels.........

NO WONDER TERRORISTS THINK THE WEST IS A JOKE!

EXECUTE THE BASTARDS 

LAWS NEED SOME FAST AND SERIOUS REVISION AS A DETERRENT


----------



## Calliope (3 December 2008)

Green08 said:


> LAWS NEED SOME FAST AND SERIOUS REVISION AS A DETERRENT




Ha. If these terrorists had picked London instead of Mumbai they would still be holed up in luxury hotels with negotiators trying to make deals with them for the release of hostages.  

The UK justice system is still agonising over the death of one Brazillian who was accidently shot be a policeman after the London train bombings. After years of investigations and enquiries the have just completed a seven weeks inquest. 

The message to the police is clear. If you accidently shoot a non-terrorist while trying to protect the public from terrorists, we will make your life a misery for years, even if you are lucky enough to to be cleared. In other words, to be on the safe side shoot nobody.


----------



## wayneL (3 December 2008)

Calliope said:


> Ha. If these terrorists had picked London instead of Mumbai they would still be holed up in luxury hotels with negotiators trying to make deals with them for the release of hostages.
> 
> The UK justice system is still agonising over the death of one Brazillian who was accidently shot be a policeman after the London train bombings. After years of investigations and enquiries the have just completed a seven weeks inquest.
> 
> The message to the police is clear. If you accidently shoot a non-terrorist while trying to protect the public from terrorists, we will make your life a misery for years, even if you are lucky enough to to be cleared. In other words, to be on the safe side shoot nobody.



Not as simple as that Calliope. 

The Menendez shooting was an absolute c0ck-up and was initially covered up with disinformation and outright lies. No way should that boy have been shot, there was NO imminent threat apparent.

Check your facts man!


----------



## Calliope (3 December 2008)

wayneL said:


> Check your facts man!




I'm not too sure what "facts" you are allluding to, but thanks for putting me on the right path. Your help in assisting careless posters if often unappreciated.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (3 December 2008)

Here is a good article on the attack:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24742400-20261,00.html
Source quote: 


> So I'm booking flights to Mumbai. I'm going to go get a beer at the Leopold, stroll over to the Taj for samosas at the Sea Lounge and watch a Bollywood movie at the Metro.


----------



## Aargh! (4 December 2008)

Hi All,
Just after some different opinions as I'm due to fly to Mumbai in a few hours and tossing up whether its a good idea or not. The plan was to spend a couple of nights in Mumbai then leg it down to party town Goa. I may still need to stay in Mumbai for one night due to flight availability. 
Cheers,


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 December 2008)

Aargh! said:


> Hi All,
> Just after some different opinions as I'm due to fly to Mumbai in a few hours and tossing up whether its a good idea or not. The plan was to spend a couple of nights in Mumbai then leg it down to party town Goa. I may still need to stay in Mumbai for one night due to flight availability.
> Cheers,




I can't give you advice, but I would go and enjoy what India has to offer. What are the chances of another attack int he same area? **** the islamists, go and have some beers and proudly hold up your bottles for the knobheads to see. And eat that nice curry and enjoy the women for their beauty. 

Safe travels!

I might just go to India next year too.


----------



## ColB (5 December 2008)

Originally posted by *Aargh*



> Hi All,
> Just after some different opinions as I'm due to fly to Mumbai in a few hours and tossing up whether its a good idea or not. The plan was to spend a couple of nights in Mumbai then leg it down to party town Goa. I may still need to stay in Mumbai for one night due to flight availability.
> Cheers,




*Indian airports on alert after Mumbai attacks: officials*
5 hours ago

NEW DELHI (AFP) ”” India put its airports on high alert Thursday following warnings of possible attacks using hijacked aircraft, officials said, a week after Islamist militants went on a killing spree in Mumbai.

The emergency measures were enacted as Defence Minister A.K. Antony ordered the armed forces to be on guard against "any terror strikes from the air."

All major airports -- including Bangalore, Chennai, Hyderabad, Kolkata, Mumbai and New Delhi -- were placed on high alert.

"This is based on a warning which has been received by the government," Air Chief Marshal Fali Major told reporters.

Officials cited intelligence "inputs" that militants may have sneaked into India to try and hijack civilian aircraft.

"We are now on a high state of alert," Arun Arora, spokesman of New Delhi's Indira Gandhi International Airport, told AFP.

The Bureau of Civil Aviation Security, which is in charge of airport safety, said additional paramilitary troops had been deployed to guard the country's busiest airports.

"We are also reinforcing security in smaller airports in cities such as Chandigarh and Guwahati," an official from the bureau said.

Hundreds of paramilitary troops were on duty at Chennai's international airport, where machine gun bunkers were set up at the entrance gates.

Indian Air Force sources said fighter jets were on stand-by across the country to prevent any 9/11-style attacks using hijacked airplanes.

"More aircraft have been sent to sectors where we were thin on the ground and so now we are adequately ready to respond to any militant attempt to use hijacked aircraft as flying missiles," a senior airforce official told AFP.

"Any unidentified aircraft will be challenged from the ground and from the air."

India is also likely to deploy batteries of anti-aircraft missiles in "high value areas," the official added.

Defence minister Antony, during an overnight meeting with military commanders, also pressed the navy and the coast guard to strengthen maritime security.

"There will be coordinated measures with the police in various states to intensify patrolling of our coastal waters," a ministry official added.

The 10 militants who attacked Mumbai reached the western Indian port city on a hijacked fishing trawler before using rubber speedboats to disembark at a small fishing dock, intelligence officials have said.

The Press Trust of India said an attack may be timed to coincide with the *December 6* anniversary of the destruction of the Babri mosque in northern India by Hindu extremists in 1992. 

Source:  www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5joIGwtwtmRDkkcFPPbITDRuMNK4Q

Probably safe on the way over Aargh but take care on the way back!!


----------



## wayneL (5 December 2008)

Calliope said:


> Ha. If these terrorists had picked London instead of Mumbai they would still be holed up in luxury hotels with negotiators trying to make deals with them for the release of hostages.
> 
> The UK justice system is still agonising over the death of one Brazillian who was accidently shot be a policeman after the London train bombings. After years of investigations and enquiries the have just completed a seven weeks inquest.
> 
> The message to the police is clear. If you accidently shoot a non-terrorist while trying to protect the public from terrorists, we will make your life a misery for years, even if you are lucky enough to to be cleared. In other words, to be on the safe side shoot nobody.






Calliope said:


> I'm not too sure what "facts" you are allluding to, but thanks for putting me on the right path. Your help in assisting careless posters if often unappreciated.




A man is followed by police for some time, observed getting on and off a bus, entering a train station and paying his fair with his oyster card, just like any normal person, runs to ensure he catches the train, and takes a seat.

He has no back pack or baggage of any kind, no clothing which could have hidden a bomb belt and is blissfully unaware he is being followed.

A group of other people with guns jump aboard the train and without any warning or identification of who they are, summarily execute an innocent man while he is sitting in his seat.

Those are the facts. That might be acceptable in Somalia or Columbia, but it is not acceptable in countries like the UK, Australia and other western countries.

It might have been a dreadful mistake, and I accept that it was in an atmosphere of heightened tensions, but it means that procedures are substandard and should be investigated in order to improve them.


----------



## doctorj (5 December 2008)

Calliope said:


> Ha. If these terrorists had picked London instead of Mumbai they would still be holed up in luxury hotels with negotiators trying to make deals with them for the release of hostages.



If it had of happened in London, within a couple of days they'd have known who they were, where they lived, how they planned it and if they ate out, what they had for breakfast that morning.

It's very easy to poke fun, but the UK and in particular London, spend a great deal of resources on safety and security and truth be told, they seem to do it quite well.

Managing these situations will always be tough.  The US learnt it during 9/11, London learnt it on 7/7 and Mumbai unfortunately learnt it recently.  Essentially, it's a fog of war in your own back yard without the clear lines of reporting, authority and responsibility you'd normally benefit from in a more regulation battlefield.


----------



## IFocus (5 December 2008)

doctorj said:


> If it had of happened in London, within a couple of days they'd have known who they were, where they lived, how they planned it and if they ate out, what they had for breakfast that morning.
> 
> It's very easy to poke fun, but the UK and in particular London, spend a great deal of resources on safety and security and truth be told, they seem to do it quite well.
> 
> Managing these situations will always be tough.  The US learnt it during 9/11, London learnt it on 7/7 and Mumbai unfortunately learnt it recently.  Essentially, it's a fog of war in your own back yard without the clear lines of reporting, authority and responsibility you'd normally benefit from in a more regulation battlefield.




Remember the police woman shot outside an embassy and the perpetrators took hostages. The Brits sent in the SAS....only survivor was covered up by the hostages themselves the Britts can be very hard nose when it comes to that sort of thing few nations have the experience and history of war and counter insurgency that England has.......century's. 

As for the guy shot on the train ......it was the ultimate Fu$kup


----------



## Prospector (5 December 2008)

ColB said:


> Hundreds of paramilitary troops were on duty at Chennai's international airport, where machine gun bunkers were set up at the entrance gates.
> 
> Indian Air Force sources said fighter jets were on stand-by across the country to prevent any 9/11-style attacks using hijacked airplanes.
> 
> Probably safe on the way over Aargh but take care on the way back!!




Oh great, we are off to Chennai in a month.  Maybe not.


----------



## Calliope (5 December 2008)

doctorj said:


> If it had of happened in London, within a couple of days they'd have known who they were, where they lived, how they planned it and if they ate out, what they had for breakfast that morning.
> 
> It's very easy to poke fun, but the UK and in particular London, spend a great deal of resources on safety and security and truth be told, they seem to do it quite well.




Ten years ago a 500lb carbomb killed 29  innocent people in the town of Omagh in Northern Ireland. This was the greatest single atrocity in the 30 years of the "troubles".

The terrorists (murderers) who committed this atrocity still havn't been brought to justice and probably never will.

And this is despite those in charge of  UK law enforcement knowing  who they are, where they live, how they planned it and probably what they had for breakfast.


----------



## IFocus (5 December 2008)

Calliope said:


> Ten years ago a 500lb carbomb killed 29  innocent people in the town of Omagh in Northern Ireland. This was the greatest single atrocity in the 30 years of the "troubles".
> 
> The terrorists (murderers) who committed this atrocity still havn't been brought to justice and probably never will.
> 
> And this is despite those in charge of  UK law enforcement knowing  who they are, where they live, how they planned it and probably what they had for breakfast.




You for got the bank robbery that payed for their retirement fund never solved


----------



## wayneL (5 December 2008)

Calliope said:


> And this is despite those in charge of  UK law enforcement knowing  who they are, where they live, how they planned it and probably what they had for breakfast.



Any way of substantiating this Calliope?


----------



## Illuminated one (5 December 2008)

Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008

A renowned Pakistani strategic defence analyst has described last week’s terrorist attacks in Mumbai as a “botched” false flag operation designed to imitate the 9/11 attacks on the United States.

Zaid Hamid, a security consultant who routinely appears on Pakistani television, told reporters of the News One channel that the attacks were state sponsored by Indian military intelligence and carried out by Hindu zionists aided by Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency.

Hamid contends that the motive is to shift attention away from India’s domestic terrorists, and to justify Western intervention in Pakistan.

“They look like Hindus. No Pakistani speaks the language they chatted in,” said Hamid , claiming that the attackers wore saffron Hindu Zionist wrist bands.

“The Americans executed the 9/11 attack perfectly.” Hamid continued. “They managed the media very well. The Indians tried to repeat the formula but goofed up. The idiots made a complete mess of it,” he argued.

Video of Hamid’s comments have been uploaded to youtube.

Hamid, who also hosts his own “Brasstacks” show on the News One channel, has long asserted that the U.S. wishes to eliminate Pakistan’s nuclear facilities which are seen as a direct threat to Israel’s sovereignty

Hamid also told viewers that during the first five minutes of the attack, three Indian counterterrorist officers were killed by authorities in order to halt their investigations of a terror network within India’s security agencies.

One of those men was India’s top antiterrorist officer Hemant Karkare, who was shot three times in the chest as he led his men at the Taj Mahal Palace.

Karkare was on the verge of uncovering the home-grown terror franchise of the Hindu extremists. He had also received death threats just hours before the attacks.

Karkare was investigating a bomb attack that killed at least six people near a mosque in the western city of Malegaon on September 29. In early November his Anti-Terror Squad arrested senior Military Intelligence officer Colonel Srikant Prasad Purohit on suspicion of involvement in the attack which was carried out by Hindu extremists.

Colonel Purohit was also under investigation for the 2007 Samjhauta Express bombings, which killed 68 people, mostly Pakistanis. Investigations into this will now likely be halted.

Analysts claim that the Mumbai bombings represent a desperate move on behalf of separatists within the Indian establishment who want to shift the country away from independence and into the new world order model.


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (5 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008
> 
> A renowned Pakistani strategic defence analyst has described last week’s terrorist attacks in Mumbai as a “botched” false flag operation designed to imitate the 9/11 attacks on the United States.
> 
> ...




Very hard to believe.

Conspiracy nuts diverting the attention and blame.


----------



## happytown (5 December 2008)

confucius say that man who post 







> very hard to believe



 confuse belief for understanding

confucius also say he is not last man on earth

cheers


----------



## Buddy (5 December 2008)

Dunno about belief and confucious but it's obvious that this guy goes on weekend trips to Afganistan to get the good stuff. On the other hand prattle like this to the paki islamofascists masses probably is a good little earner.


----------



## Calliope (5 December 2008)

wayneL said:


> Any way of substantiating this Calliope?




No, of course not, but if you doubt it, I refer you to the BBC Panorama special "Who Bombed Omagh?" in which the four prime suspects were named.


----------



## Illuminated one (5 December 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Very hard to believe.
> 
> Conspiracy nuts diverting the attention and blame.




So your saying that Arabs from a third world country with box cutters slipped past N.O.R.A.D, F.B.I, C.I.A, Interpol, N.S.A,MI6, The department of homeland security, F.A.A, and F-16 jets which were scrambled on the scene very fast, to execute the worlds greatest terrorist attack on American soil?

Or the fact that Mumbai which is the financial center of India, and is the most guarded Indian City, on the Day of the Mumbai attacks security was relaxed at the Taj hotel,

which was full of some of the worlds richest people that day, which they where attending business meetings etc 

So Terrorists just walked right in there unchallenged, stash their weapons, shot and killed 200 people before the Indian police, swat, military 'responded' to the scene?

And how convenient was it that they 'caught' one of the suspects alive after they had told police they were on a suicide mission?

Your obviously a very naive person!


----------



## coolcricket (5 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> So your saying that Arabs from a third world country with box cutters slipped past N.O.R.A.D, F.B.I, C.I.A, Interpol, N.S.A,MI6, The department of homeland security, F.A.A, and F-16 jets which were scrambled on the scene very fast, to execute the worlds greatest terrorist attack on American soil?




I think you are assuming the United States had in place similar security measures to that of today, which was not the case.... for example, The Department of Homeland Security did not even exist when the September 11 attacks occurred.


----------



## IFocus (5 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> So your saying that Arabs from a third world country with box cutters slipped past N.O.R.A.D, F.B.I, C.I.A, Interpol, N.S.A,MI6, The department of homeland security, F.A.A, and F-16 jets which were scrambled on the scene very fast, to execute the worlds greatest terrorist attack on American soil?




Sounds like the same mob that said some thing about there were WMD in Iraq



> Or the fact that Mumbai which is the financial center of India, and is the most guarded Indian City, on the Day of the Mumbai attacks security was relaxed at the Taj hotel,




Ah so you haven't been to Inida then....



> which was full of some of the worlds richest people that day, which they where attending business meetings etc




Big deal India is full of rich nationals millions of millionaires




> So Terrorists just walked right in there unchallenged, stash their weapons, shot and killed 200 people before the Indian police, swat, military 'responded' to the scene?




Yep saw it on the TV




> And how convenient was it that they 'caught' one of the suspects alive after they had told police they were on a suicide mission?




Guess he wasn't serious about the suicide bit




> Your obviously a very naive person!




And where exactly have you traveled and experienced the world for real....


----------



## Buddy (5 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> So your saying that Arabs from a third world country with box cutters slipped past N.O.R.A.D, F.B.I, C.I.A, Interpol, N.S.A,MI6, The department of homeland security, F.A.A, and F-16 jets which were scrambled on the scene very fast, to execute the worlds greatest terrorist attack on American soil?
> 
> Or the fact that Mumbai which is the financial center of India, and is the most guarded Indian City, on the Day of the Mumbai attacks security was relaxed at the Taj hotel,
> 
> ...




Uh, Oh! Here we go again. I was wondering how long it would take. Go to H.C. you'll get more joy there. If this thread is going to descend into conspiracy crap (be it 9/11, Bali, little green men, or whatever) then I for one, am outa here.


----------



## disarray (5 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Zaid Hamid, a security consultant who routinely appears on Pakistani television, told reporters of the News One channel that the attacks were state sponsored by Indian military intelligence and carried out by Hindu zionists aided by Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency.




fundamentalist islam has such a persecution complex it would be amusing if it wasn't so dangerous. the jews, the hindus, the christians, the buddhists, the athiests, they're all out to get them. its so bad there's even alliances between any and all of the above out to get them! hindu zionists omg!!!

i blame god.

p.s. loosen the tinfoil hat.


----------



## Illuminated one (5 December 2008)

IFocus said:


> Sounds like the same mob that said some thing about there were WMD in Iraq
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ive been around the world buddy, and lived in many places around the world...


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 December 2008)

Wreaks of bull-baiting some of these posts.


----------



## Illuminated one (5 December 2008)

disarray said:


> fundamentalist islam has such a persecution complex it would be amusing if it wasn't so dangerous. the jews, the hindus, the christians, the buddhists, the athiests, they're all out to get them. its so bad there's even alliances between any and all of the above out to get them! hindu zionists omg!!!
> 
> i blame god.
> 
> p.s. loosen the tinfoil hat.




Its not about the tinfoil hat, i am very open minded, but when you sift through the evidence and witnesses statements, you begin to wonder what happened, i know that every country has an agenda, whether it would be preemptive cause for war between the 2 nations, or cause Chaos in the heart of the financial sector of India, fear is the greatest form of control, but also there was a report saying that the Indian military a few years back killed 2000 Indian Muslims and this may have been pay back.


----------



## Buddy (5 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Ive been around the world buddy, and lived in many places around the world...




I didn't say that m8, IFocus did. I dont care where you've lived.


----------



## Illuminated one (5 December 2008)

Buddy said:


> I didn't say that m8, IFocus did. I dont care where you've lived.




I meant to say friend(buddy), not directed it to you.


----------



## inrodwetrust (5 December 2008)

> Your obviously a very naive person!




Illuminated one

Have you eve considered that you might be the patsy spreading this conspiratorial rubbish?


----------



## Illuminated one (5 December 2008)

inrodwetrust said:


> Illuminated one
> 
> Have you eve considered that you might be on the right path to justice?




Yes, i have, thanks for noticing.....


----------



## Joe Blow (5 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008
> 
> A renowned Pakistani strategic defence analyst has described last week’s terrorist attacks in Mumbai as a “botched” false flag operation designed to imitate the 9/11 attacks on the United States.
> 
> ...




Illuminated one,

Can you please provide a link to this article so others can evaluate the credibility of the source?

Also, please note our policy on copyright infringement: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10373

In future please only reproduce a small portion of the article accompanied by a link to the original source.


----------



## wayneL (5 December 2008)

Hindu Zionists???

Whatever next?


----------



## 2020hindsight (5 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> ...  i know that every country has an agenda, whether it would be preemptive cause for war between the 2 nations, or cause Chaos in the heart of the financial sector of India, fear is the greatest form of control, but also there was a report saying that the Indian military a few years back killed 2000 Indian Muslims and this may have been pay back.



Illuminated - you're getting the full treatment here m8 lol.
Sometimes this place doesn't like open mindedness  

I certainly heard the same theory that they were speaking in an Indian dialect.  No idea if it's true or not, but I'm not gonna pretend ( Like some here) that you're obviously wrong for opening the possibility. 

Hindu Extremists ? - sure heaps of em.  
Islamic Extremists ? - heaps of them too.  

Look forward to any further articles there IO


----------



## It's Snake Pliskin (6 December 2008)

> So your saying that Arabs from a third world country with box cutters slipped past N.O.R.A.D, F.B.I, C.I.A, Interpol, N.S.A,MI6, The department of homeland security, F.A.A, and F-16 jets which were scrambled on the scene very fast, to execute the worlds greatest terrorist attack on American soil?



It wasn't India? Everyone says it was in India, the recent attack.



> Or the fact that Mumbai which is the financial center of India, and is the most guarded Indian City, on the Day of the Mumbai attacks security was relaxed at the Taj hotel,



Ah, so it was India. Do you have accurate and on the ground evidence of this?


> which was full of some of the worlds richest people that day, which they where attending business meetings etc



It that not normal? A big hotel full of wealthy people seems normal to me.


> So Terrorists just walked right in there unchallenged, stash their weapons, shot and killed 200 people before the Indian police, swat, military 'responded' to the scene?



I don't know I wasn't there. Were you?


> And how convenient was it that they 'caught' one of the suspects alive after they had told police they were on a suicide mission?



So the others offered to give up their lives for their jobs?


> Your obviously a very naive person!



I guess so. But, I'm not gullibly taking what you say as FACT, so maybe I'm not. 

Keep us all posted.


----------



## kitehigh (6 December 2008)

I have lived in the middle east and central asia and I know how fond they are of conspiracy stories.  I find them amusing especially as those telling the story believe it with a lot of conviction.  Its very hard to get them to look at it from another angle or simply except the reality of the situation.  I think they like to believe these conspiracy's as they take the blame away from there own short comings.

As for one of the terrorist being captured alive after they had sworn to fight to the end.  Well there is nothing new here, the exact same thing happened with the attack on the Serena hotel in Kabul in January of this year.  One of the attackers blew himself up while the other one after killing a number of people lost his nerve and decided against blowing himself up.  

As for a massive conspiracy of 911, I can't see it, as it would have taken a lot of people to pull something like that off.  It would be impossible to keep everyone of those people quite, and it would have leaked by now.


----------



## Sean K (6 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> So your saying that Arabs from a third world country with box cutters slipped past N.O.R.A.D, F.B.I, C.I.A, Interpol, N.S.A,MI6, The department of homeland security, F.A.A, and F-16 jets which were scrambled on the scene very fast, to execute the worlds greatest terrorist attack on American soil?
> 
> Or the fact that Mumbai which is the financial center of India, and is the most guarded Indian City, on the Day of the Mumbai attacks security was relaxed at the Taj hotel,
> 
> ...



LOL 

Funny post.

Cheers.


----------



## Illuminated one (6 December 2008)

Ahhh come on guys, isn't it good to have 2 sides of a story, I'm just trying to provide an different view on these events, I'm not a conspiracy nut but examining both sides of the story is good for arguments sake,

I certainly do not know what happened that day, but the bottom line is that hopefully India and Pakistan do not go to war over this because their could be many more lives lost in the process.

These attacks should of not happened in the first place and 200 innocent lives should not have been lost, that is the tragic reality!


----------



## Sean K (6 December 2008)

It's great to have differing views on this forum, when either can be backed up by some logic and common sence. 

Cheers!

Again, funny posts....


----------



## Illuminated one (6 December 2008)

kennas said:


> It's great to have differing views on this forum, when either can be backed up by some logic and common sence.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Again, funny posts....




I just want to know, which part do you find funny?


----------



## Sean K (6 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> I just want to know, which part do you find funny?





For a start, ending a sentance with a ,

Or, nothing at all

starting a sentance with a w.

And, your raising some fantastical conspiracy theories with great foundation. 

And, I really like your approach to making an argument against some long time members here. Calling people naive on a public forum is great darts in my opinion.

I look forward to hearing that GWB and Al Gore conspired to hit Mumbai to create some type of conflict that would boost US arms sales and stop the ice melting. 

All the best!
kennas


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 December 2008)

Kennas, both you and I (open-mindedly - and qualified in my case) fell for the theory that some of them might be British -based - seems that's not the case. 

In this case it seems they are probably "Kashmir-based",  a "Kashmiri group" etc.  Now that could be disgruntled Indians could it not?  Most likely Moslems conceded, but who knows.   If they came through Pakistan, more likely still they were Moslems. 

But there's a lot at stake here not to keep an open mind till all the facts are in surely. 

http://www.acus.org/atlantic_update/mumbai-terrorism-likely-kashmir-based


> Mumbai Terrorism Likely Kashmir Based
> James Joyner | November 29, 2008
> American intelligence and counterterrorism officials said Friday that there was mounting evidence that a Pakistani militant group based in Kashmir, most likely Lashkar-e-Taiba, was responsible for this week’s deadly attacks in Mumbai. The officials cautioned that they had reached no firm conclusions about who was responsible for the attacks, or how they were planned and carried out. Nevertheless, they said that evidence gathered in the past two days pointed to a role for Lashkar-e-Taiba or possibly another group based in Kashmir, Jaish-e-Muhammad, which also has a track record of attacks against India.
> 
> ...





> Rumors of British ties are apparently false. Times of London:


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 December 2008)

:topic
Populations :-
Australia 21.5 mill
..
cities :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_by_population

Tokyo 32.5mill
Seoul  20.6 mill
Mexico City 20.5 mill
New York City 19.8 mill
*Mumbai (prev Bombay)  19.2 mill* (5th largest city in world)
Jakarta  18.9 mill
*Delhi 18.6 mill*
....
Karachi, Pakistan 12.6 mill 
..
*Kolkata (prev Calcutta) 7.8 mill*
...
Lahore, Pakistan 6.8 mill
...
*Chennai (prev Madras) 4.4 mill*
...
Sydney (prev Port Jackson) 4.3 mill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

India is the 2nd largest population 1.14 billion (after China with 1.33 billion) 
Pakistan is the 6th largest population 165 mill  (1/7 th the size of India) 

More Moslems in India than in Pakistan (or similar number at least)


----------



## Illuminated one (6 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> :topic
> Populations :-
> Australia 20.5 mill
> ..
> ...




At least you are open minded 2020, that shows that you are indeed an intelligent person...

People seem to not want to hear other sides of the story, that is why i threw the Naive comment before , not being aggressive or anything, because at the end of the day, the internet is not serious business, these attacks were.


----------



## 2020hindsight (6 December 2008)

Reuters yesterday :-
http://in.reuters.com/article/specialEvents2/idINIndia-36891820081205



> Indian media under fire for Mumbai attacks coverage
> Fri Dec 5, 2008 7:32pm
> By Rina Chandran
> 
> ...




" Pakistan has condemned the attacks and denied any state involvement, as well as vowing to help the Indian probe"
If Pakistan genuinely helps get to the bottom of this, - and there is tremendous international pressure to do so, then that could be a positive for the future surely.


----------



## Illuminated one (6 December 2008)

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...y-alert-of-Indian-airports--bombay-india.html

*A Pakistani militant group used an Indian operative as far back as 2007 to scout targets for the elaborate plot against India's financial capital, authorities have said. *

The discovery is a blow to Indian officials who have blamed the deadly attacks entirely on Pakistani extremists.

As investigators sought to unravel the attack on Mumbai, stepping up questioning of the lone captured gunman, airports across India were put on high alert amid fresh warnings that terrorists planned to hijack an aircraft.

Also Thursday, police said there were signs that some of the six victims of the attack on a Jewish center may have been tortured. "The victims were strangled," said Rakesh Maria, a senior Mumbai police official. "There were injuries noticed on the bodies that were not from firing."

Members of an Israeli rescue group which had a team in Mumbai said it was impossible to tell if the bodies had been abused, however, because no autopsies were conducted in accordance with Jewish tradition.

The surviving gunman, Ajmal Amir Kasab, 21, told interrogators he had been sent by the banned Pakistani militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba and identified two of the plot's masterminds, according to two Indian government officials familiar with the inquiry. Laskar, outlawed by Pakistan in 2002, has been deemed by the US to be a terrorist group with ties to al-Qaida.

Kasab told police that one of them, Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, Lashkar's operations chief, recruited him for the attack, and the assailants called another senior leader, Yusuf Muzammil, on a satellite phone after hijacking an Indian vessel en route to Mumbai.

The information sent investigators back to another reputed Lashkar operative, Faheem Ansari, who they hope could be key in pulling together different strands of the investigation.

Ansari, an Indian national, was arrested in February in north India carrying hand-drawn sketches of hotels, the train terminal and other sites that were later attacked in Mumbai, said Amitabh Yash, director of the Special Task Force of the Uttar Pradesh police.

During his interrogation, Ansari also named Muzammil as his handler in Pakistan, adding that he trained in a Lashkar camp in Muzaffarabad ”” the same area where Kasab said he was trained, a senior police officer involved in the investigation said.

Ansari "told us about a planned Lashkar attack on Bombay, on southern Bombay," said Mr Yash, referring to Mumbai by its previous name. "He gave us eight or nine specific locations where the attack would be carried out," he said, adding that Ansari had detailed sketches of the places and escape routes from the sites.

Ansari said he carried out the reconnaissance in the fall of 2007, and that it also included the U.S. consulate, the Bombay stock exchange and other Mumbai sites that were not attacked.

Ansari is now in Indian custody, according to Mr Yash.

The develoment comes after India triggered a massive security alert at its main airports after officials warned al-Qaeda was planning a 9/11 style attack using hijacked aircraft just days after the Mumbai atrocity.

Airports in New Delhi, Madras, Bangalore and Mumbai were put on "red alert" a week after 10 terrorists launched a devastating series of attacks on the commercial capital in which 171 people were killed.

The inclusion of Madras on the list threw renewed doubt on the England cricket team's winter tour, which had been due to resume in the city next week.

A decision on whether to return to India is due to be made after security experts report on security arrangements in the southern city.

Ram Gopal, Madras airport's general manager, said that special security measures, including the positioning of quick response unit, had been put in place. "This is due to certain intelligence inputs we have received," he said. "The entire perimeter of the airport will be guarded."

Defence Minister AK Antony ordered the mobilisation after intercepted emails and telephone calls indicated that Afghan and Pakistani terrorists had arrived in India with plans to hijack a civilian plane.

"A red alert has been sounded," said Digvijay Singh, commandant of Central Industrial Security Force, which protects key facilities "This is due to some intelligence inputs suggesting there will be attacks on the airport."

Fighter jets were placed on alert to protect the capital. The elite antiterrorist commando unit, the National Security Guard was placed on standby. Additional air marshals were placed on internal flights in "sensitive sectors." Armed plainclothes officers were posted outside the affected airports. Blockades were established at airports and bags of passengers were being checked for explosives.

"More aircraft have been sent to sectors where we were thin on the ground and so now we are adequately ready to respond to any militant attempt to use hijacked aircraft as flying missiles," an air force official said. "Any unidentified aircraft will be challenged from the ground and from the air."

Officials said that by modelling the attacks on the 2001 assault on America, al Qaeda hoped to gain a propaganda victory to coincide with Saturday's anniversary of the 1992 destruction of the 475-year-old Babri mosque in India's northeastern city of Ayodhya by Hindu extremists.

Under new guidelines from India's Civil Aviation Bureau, passengers have been advised to arrive up to four hours before flights to clear at least five rounds of security checks before boarding the aircraft.

India's vulnerability to further acts of Islamic terrorism was underlined yesterday by reports that the terrorists that attacked Mumbai last week had been equipped with mobile phone cards that had been bought in New Delhi and Calcutta in the last month.

India has blamed elements within Pakistan of carrying out the attacks. New Delhi has said the Kashmiri terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba, which operates from bases near Lahore, had planned and executed the attack.

But the organisational network behind the incident yesterday appeared to stretch far beyond Pakistan and was reliant on help from within India and its eastern neighbour, Bangladesh.

All the recovered cards were registered in the name of Hussain Ur Rehman, a resident of a district on the border with Bangladesh.

Dmitri Medvedev, Russia's president, declared the Kremlin was prepared to offer antiterrorist help to New Delhi as he prepared for a visit to India in which Moscow expects to secure valuable contracts to supply the Indian Navy. He said: "We are prepared for co-operation on all fronts with the aim of preventing such terrorist attacks, in the investigation of the recent terrorist attack and the creation of a global defence system against terrorism in the world."


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## Miner (6 December 2008)

It is most unfortunate and deplorable that whereas Mumbai murder has washed out so many people directly through loss of life, indirectly through loss of their bread earners, making people disable, loss of property (many Indian properties often under or uninsured excepting big properties like Taj Mahal and Oberoi Hotel themselves but the small operators who are subbies for those big players).

It is more deplorable to consider Pakistanis being outsiders of India alone would have done it without assistance from traitors within India. There is no doubt of Pakistan's involvement but there would be some assistant from Indians as well. It is all money which drives people forget about all patriotism. 

It is also deplorable to see the cunning competition from some countries to make solid business and finding entry in Indian economy in the name of providing anti terrorist assistance. Good intention of course on the face of it.

IMO Indian intelligence and home security could have stopped it (all in hindsight) if they would not have slept the warning they received only couple of months back and acted seriously. Mr Tata himself admitted the same as Hotel Taj did receive the warning but slept it away after Festival of Lights passed.

THe fact is HOme Minister of India, Chief Minister (same as our Premiers) of Mumbai (Maharastra) and Intelligence Chiefs resigned justified the slackness of Indians themselves but no life unfortunately will return. 

It is often strange why they always fully kill the prime witnesses and leave one only alive. Same happened in John F Kennedy assasin : Lee Oswald was killed by Jacki Rubey (?) so no one knew who actually masterminded it, Indira Gandhi was shot by her own body guard Beant Singh and he was shot leaving no trace who actually master minded the murder, Rajiv Gandhi's murderer was a suicide bomber, and same happened in Indian Attack.

All nine (?) terrorists were killed but the last one. He can make lot of stories and we all have to believe it. He has nothing to fear as already brain washed to kill and die. There could have been more truth coming out if at least the preventive actions of attack was done in the first place or some more terrorists would have been severely injured but not fully killed.


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## Illuminated one (6 December 2008)

Miner said:


> It is most unfortunate and deplorable that whereas Mumbai murder has washed out so many people directly through loss of life, indirectly through loss of their bread earners, making people disable, loss of property (many Indian properties often under or uninsured excepting big properties like Taj Mahal and Oberoi Hotel themselves but the small operators who are subbies for those big players).
> 
> It is more deplorable to consider Pakistanis being outsiders of India alone would have done it without assistance from traitors within India. There is no doubt of Pakistan's involvement but there would be some assistant from Indians as well. It is all money which drives people forget about all patriotism.
> 
> ...




Excellent post.


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## 2020hindsight (6 December 2008)

Miner said:


> ...  He can make lot of stories and we all have to believe it. He has nothing to fear as already brain washed to kill and die. There could have been more truth coming out if at least the preventive actions of attack was done in the first place or some more terrorists would have been severely injured but not fully killed.[/COLOR]



Miner 
I have been thinking the same thing.  I'm sure they'd have obtained 4 times the info (with four times the chance of its being authentic)  if there were two at least 

Not gonna suggest it was intentional though - but a shame that there's only one.

:topic  
As for Jack Ruby, "concerned citizen"  - lol - yeah right -  his phone bill in the month leading up to the assassination was phenomenal lol.


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## Miner (6 December 2008)

Illuminated one said:


> Blah blah blah blah blah,




*Come on Illuminated One.*

For God's sake behave like an illuminated one 

Why making  personal attack on any ASF member just because you have posted something and got few flacks and criticism. That is life and in the past in one of the posts I have been bruised and hurt. I chose not to make any direct remark to any one. 

After all your intention was to write something on the tragic attack in India and not to attack on ASF participants. Mumbai Indians and some of our Oz  folks  lost every thing in the tragedy where we are only exchanging in INternet. I feel myself lucky to be not there. 

Why then are we having hot exchanges between  ourselves. 

Let us get over and back to making some stock now considering financial capital of India has been hurt and getting over too.

For the record one of my very closest friends was lucky to be alive while trapped  in the Taj Hotel and sent an emal saying it was a miracle that he is still alive.  Another friend got hurt in panic stampede in the same hotel but by God's grace alive, 

So belive me my emotional feelings and concern are no less than many who have nothing lost in the tragedy and probably do not know if Mumbai is in east  or west  of India . 

But once again no personal attacks to any one please.


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## Miner (6 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> :topic
> Populations :-
> Australia 21.5 mill
> ..
> ...




Good posting 2020 hindsight

If I may add that India has 145 millions of Muslim which makes more than 10% population of its own. 

Regards


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## 2020hindsight (6 December 2008)

Miner said:


> ... If I may add that India has 145 millions of Muslim which makes more than 10% population of its own.



Miner,
Howdy - (I always thought there were more in India but .. ) Seems that there are almost equal numbers of Moslems in both countries ... 
13.5% of 1140 mill = 154 mill. 
75% Sunnis + 20% Shiites = 95% total x 165 mill = 157 mill

I found this post by a Hindu elsewhere basically saying the Moslems were supposed to go to Pakistan in 1946 lol)  ...


> "In 1946, 95% of the Moslems of India, expressed that they did not want to live, with the Kafir-Hindus of India, and insisted upon a separate home-land of their own ( called Pakistan ).  After coming into possession of their Damn-Pakistan, with what face can they now live & breathe in the Kafir-Land of India, without feeling the least bit of self-disgust, and self-degradation."




http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hHOgNSvxDc2XK3SB3iZf3lvX_bGw


> Fears of sectarian violence after Mumbai carnage
> 4 days ago
> 
> MUMBAI (AFP) — The Islamist militant attacks on Mumbai have led to fears that India could see a sectarian backlash as Hindu and Muslim groups exploit mutual suspicion for political and religious ends.
> ...


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## Miner (6 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Miner,
> Howdy - (I always thought there were more in India but .. ) Seems that there are almost equal numbers of Moslems in both countries ...
> 13.5% of 1140 mill = 154 mill.
> 75% Sunnis + 20% Shiites = 95% total x 165 mill = 157 mill
> ...




Hi 2020hindsight

Thanks for the update.

You were correct  on the number of Muslims in India. My data must be pretty old, I was lazy to do more research and with an allowance to have more than one  wives under the Muslim law the normal multiplier will be much higher than normal. 

Still the population of Muslim  is a large number in INdia to call India as a Hindus State by another standard.


I found some links googling the Net and it is still one year old (2007)  !

What the Census also does not count for the illegal Muslim  immigrants from Bangladesh filtering through the borders in the Eastern India. 

Data are often misleading

I noticed in Wikipedia they have published so many Muslim countries and just because India has larger Hindu population Wikipedia  have not counted them as a Muslim country even if the population of Muslims in India far larger than that of Nigeria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_Muslim_countries 

Some more links

http://www.cfr.org/publication/13659/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Muslim_population_of_India


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## 2020hindsight (6 December 2008)

Miner said:


> ... What the Census also does not count for the illegal Muslim  immigrants from Bangladesh filtering through the borders in the Eastern India.




mmm Refugees from environmentally threatened countries ...

Miner I'm gonna tempt your wrath here, but this is what the Brits are ultimately on about with the global warming debate ...   this boke (Rowley) was an adviser to Blair. 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=277569&highlight=Rowley#post277569

   Great Global Warming Swindle ABC Debates Part 6/9

"Nick Rowley, Climate Change Strategist - of UK gives a great summary...
balancing the risks of getting this wrong



> on the subject of observed global warming , if you look at the great bulk of the world's climate scientists, around 98% of them really accept that basic science, - that is as close to certain - almost - as you can get - in relation to science.
> 
> Yet there are uncertainties, essentially about the future - and a future prediction is always going to be uncertain - and that's why, when you look at the IPCC reports, you have scenarios - lower, middle, and upper scenarios - and for mine, I very much hope they are wrong .
> 
> ...




As Rowley says (from the Brit point  of view) ... 


> "essentially it's not the science, it's actually the policy responses to the magnitude of the risk. "




So even if UK stays pleasantly cool , thanks to changes in Gulf stream etc , there will be a problem from the environmental refugees of the future (remember Greymouth NS is the same latitude south as Portugal is north - obviously the gulf stream is a major factor - so matter what some around here would say  ) 
Remember that the sea level has risen 175mm (7") in100 years, and the rate is increasing.


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## 2020hindsight (6 December 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/06/2439710.htm?section=justin



> India arrests 2 linked to Mumbai bombings
> Posted 1 hour 24 minutes ago
> 
> Indian police say they have arrested two men who helped the Mumbai attackers get mobile phone cards they used to stay in touch during the three-day rampage.
> ...




lol - how about this one ...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/06/2439721.htm?section=justin


> Pakistan on high alert after President pranked
> Posted 28 minutes ago
> 
> Nuclear-armed Pakistan put its forces on high alert after a *hoax caller pretending to be India's foreign minister spoke to President Asif Ali Zardari in a threatening manner on November 28, two days after the attacks on Mumbai began*, Dawn newspaper reported.
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/06/2439697.htm?section=justin


> On Friday (local time), Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said India has been angered "as never before" by the attacks as his new home minister hinted at growing evidence of Pakistani involvement.
> 
> "We have told the world that the people of India have felt a sense of hurt and anger as never before due to the Mumbai terror strikes," Mr Singh said.
> 
> ...


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## wayneL (13 December 2008)

wayneL said:


> A man is followed by police for some time, observed getting on and off a bus, entering a train station and paying his fair with his oyster card, just like any normal person, runs to ensure he catches the train, and takes a seat.
> 
> He has no back pack or baggage of any kind, no clothing which could have hidden a bomb belt and is blissfully unaware he is being followed.
> 
> ...




As De Menezez was mentioned in this thread, an update on proceedings here:



> From Times Online
> December 12, 2008
> De Menezes jury record open verdict and rejects police version of shooting
> 
> ...


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## numbercruncher (14 December 2008)

> World can't live with terrorism
> What the Bulletin says
> 
> December 5th, 2008
> ...




http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/12/05/29091_editorial-news.html

May I suggest that Islamic countries dont give a  about the rest of the world and its high time that we De-coupled from them on a permanent basis ?

Once we break our oil addictions this will prove alot easier.....


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## Sean K (14 December 2008)

numbercruncher said:


> Once we break our oil addictions this will prove alot easier.....



Imagine what happens to the Arab world, and maybe Venezuela and Russia too, when we find an alternative.

They are toast.


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## Aargh! (14 December 2008)

I was in and out of Mumbai for the last fortnight which has certainly been an experience.

I stayed a stones throw from the Taj Palace Hotel in Calaba. The hotel is fenced off at the moment but there was no shortage of tourists taking happy snaps. Leopold's Cafe also reopened whilst I was there and I decided to show support by going there for a bite to eat. The first half hour was quite moving as I tried to grasp what happened there.

I ended up leaving after tourists were given walk through tours taking photos of the bullet holes, some posing next to them, and buying t-shirts. It's a real shame that people don't show respect and worse still profiteer from others suffering.


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## Sean K (15 December 2008)

Aargh! said:


> I ended up leaving after tourists were given walk through tours taking photos of the bullet holes, some posing next to them, and buying t-shirts. It's a real shame that people don't show respect and worse still profiteer from others suffering.



 Yes, saw this type of behaviour at Port Arthur also. WTF? 

They still selling Shantaram over the counter there?


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## It's Snake Pliskin (15 December 2008)

kennas said:


> Imagine what happens to the Arab world, and maybe Venezuela and Russia too, when we find an alternative.
> 
> They are toast.



Kennas,
They will have to start being innovative me thinks.


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## Sean K (15 December 2008)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Kennas,
> They will have to start being innovative me thinks.



Maybe tourism of the old oil pumps?

World sand sculpting events?

Oasis hunting?

Um, pilgramage races?

Magic carpet rides?


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## Aargh! (15 December 2008)

kennas said:


> Yes, saw this type of behaviour at Port Arthur also. WTF?
> 
> They still selling Shantaram over the counter there?




I read in a newspaper there they plan to keep the bullet holes as a reminder and refused they were profiteering. It's not what I saw with my eyes.

Shantaram?


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## noirua (6 May 2018)

*Indian police arrest 14 after girl is raped and killed*
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...-after-girl-is-raped-and-killed-36877109.html


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## SirRumpole (6 May 2018)

noirua said:


> *Indian police arrest 14 after girl is raped and killed*
> https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...-after-girl-is-raped-and-killed-36877109.html





Great culture.


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## noirua (6 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Great culture.




You summed it all up in two words. Some countries have lost the plot - India hasn't found it yet.


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