# Psychology - Personal Development



## pavilion103 (19 February 2011)

I am curious to see how many traders in here read a lot of personal development books/attend seminars. 

I am new to trading and have probably read about 10 or so trading books. I do feel that I know myself fairly well and have read around 30-40 personal development books. Do people think this is a big help from the psychology point of view? Obviously nothing can prepare someone for the live markets but I'm curious to see who else has read a lot of these types of books and if they believe it has given them a better understanding of themselves and psychology. 

Thanks,
Matt


----------



## Wysiwyg (19 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

You have/are walking a similar path to me. Have plenty of 'personal growth' books from East and West. Had many moments of enlightenment but found 'knowing' made no difference to the world. Humanity is a complete contradiction of 'life' and human life on this planet is an abomination. What more to do but go through this experience from birth to death, postulating some reason, as millions have done before.


----------



## Market Depth (19 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

Good trading decision. Bad trading decision. That's it.


----------



## pavilion103 (19 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Wysiwyg said:


> You have/are walking a similar path to me. Have plenty of 'personal growth' books from East and West. Had many moments of enlightenment but found 'knowing' made no difference to the world. Humanity is a complete contradiction of 'life' and human life on this planet is an abomination. What more to do but go through this experience from birth to death, postulating some reason, as millions have done before.




It's amazing how little as humans we know. There has been so much growth in my life but the fact that we can be so slow to learn can be frustrating. An enlightened experience of complete paradigm shift would be nice. I do enjoy the journey though and would rather be seeking than not seeking. I'm going to the Tony Robbins seminar in Sydney in 2 weeks. Looking forward to the fire walk. 

The one thing I have learnt is to live my passions. I am 25 years old, I enjoy my work, but I cannot stand the thought of a 9-5 job for many more years. It is at the stage where I am willing to do whatever it takes. This is my goal, please tell me if you think it is reasonable. 

I have a 3 year plan. 
I am currently spending 15 hours a week working on trade (reading, forum, trading live simulators with a few different systems, learning Amibroker etc...)
I am in this for the long run and have set a goal to be able to become a full time trader by New Year 2014. 
I have a property under contract which will free up some cash. I haven't started trading yet and will not until I test my systems further. 
So, over the next 3 years I intend to spend close to 2,500 hours working on this (15 per week x 52 x 3). Live in the market, testing systems, reading etc...
Then look to leave work and become a full time profitable trader making $100,000+ per year.


----------



## Market Depth (20 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

How much do you plan on investing in your trading business (Starting Capital) to earn 100k/year?


----------



## Wysiwyg (20 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



pavilion103 said:


> It's amazing how little as humans we know. There has been so much growth in my life but the fact that we can be so slow to learn can be frustrating. An enlightened experience of complete paradigm shift would be nice. I do enjoy the journey though and would rather be seeking than not seeking. I'm going to the Tony Robbins seminar in Sydney in 2 weeks. Looking forward to the fire walk.




Got Unlimited Power and have walked the glowing coals but not with Robbins. You could build on the seminar experience to really get focused on your goals. Do you have support with your endeavors. What about other activities such as sport/healthy eating, relaxation, social gatherings (minus the saboteurs), a sound appreciation and respect for nature, adequate sleep. 
What about work with accessing Alpha state on cue, releasing negative influences (people or environment) from your life and importantly, giving of yourself either monetarily or practically to help the genuine folk. 

It doesn't come naturally for most but can be learned and it is a life time of learning. 

I find the taking part of trading and buying into companies that strip the environment bare a conscience issue but there aren't many human beings not participating indirectly anyway.


----------



## tech/a (20 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Market Depth said:


> How much do you plan on investing in your trading business (Starting Capital) to earn 100k/year?




I would suggest min $300k and $600K would make it far easier.
Though you could leverage (Sensibly) the $300k.

As for psychology and personal development---35 yrs of self employed---2 near bankruptcies---and now a sizable company to run---all the guidance/education Ill ever need.


----------



## pavilion103 (20 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Market Depth said:


> How much do you plan on investing in your trading business (Starting Capital) to earn 100k/year?




Probably a couple of hundred thousand. Although I am leveraging my positions and still leaving my risk size as 1-2% of capital. I'm assuming with leverage I wouldn't need as much of my own money as I did without leverage?


----------



## IFocus (20 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



> pavilion103;613061]It's amazing how little as humans we know. There has been so much growth in my life but the fact that we can be so slow to learn can be frustrating. An enlightened experience of complete paradigm shift would be nice. I do enjoy the journey though and would rather be seeking than not seeking. I'm going to the Tony Robbins seminar in Sydney in 2 weeks. Looking forward to the fire walk.




Great thing to do but wont make you a better trader



> The one thing I have learnt is to live my passions. I am 25 years old, I enjoy my work, but I cannot stand the thought of a 9-5 job for many more years. It is at the stage where I am willing to do whatever it takes. This is my goal, please tell me if you think it is reasonable.




Great thinking start now




> I have a 3 year plan.
> I am currently spending 15 hours a week working on trade (reading, forum, trading live simulators with a few different systems, learning Amibroker etc...)
> I am in this for the long run and have set a goal to be able to become a full time trader by New Year 2014.
> I have a property under contract which will free up some cash. I haven't started trading yet and will not until I test my systems further.
> ...




10,000 hrs is the standard for becoming an expert

My advice is read all the books and some for your own growth as for trading testing is the holy grail pretty much every thing else is total BS. Simple is best.

Through testing you can develop correct behavior / decision making processes. Most miss this very simple thing hence most fail.

After testing comes SIM / paper trade your ideas to death again its about  correct behavior / decision making processes.

If you are really lucky at this stage trading starts to become boring.

Then commit money to the market.

BTW like your plan, good luck, it will be the hardest thing you will ever do but the journey will be worth it.


----------



## pavilion103 (20 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

It's very exciting to start on this journey. If there is one thing I am not afraid of it's hard work. I struggle to talk to my friends about trading because they keep asking when I am going to start with real money. People in general don't understand that you can't get something for nothing. That is why most people have nothing. I am a very patient person and would rather commit everything I've got for 3-5 years to get the end result then try to get a quick fix solution. 

One good piece of advice on here is for me to focus on testing, simulation etc.... I think I can cut back on the reading a bit now and focus on this a lot more. IF I get spare time then I can continue to do more and more reading.


----------



## Julia (20 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



pavilion103 said:


> It's very exciting to start on this journey.
> 
> One good piece of advice on here is for me to focus on testing, simulation etc.... I think I can cut back on the reading a bit now and focus on this a lot more. IF I get spare time then I can continue to do more and more reading.




When do you plan to put some real money into the real market?


----------



## pavilion103 (21 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Julia said:


> When do you plan to put some real money into the real market?




When I am consistently making profits on paper trades/simulator otherwise I am gambling


----------



## tech/a (21 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



pavilion103 said:


> When I am consistently making profits on paper trades/simulator otherwise I am gambling




In general terms your best advised to do that.
However if you know WHY your method will be profitable because you know what your EDGE is then you dont need to sim or systems test.

I cant systems test my Discretionary methods.
I know my edge and I know why it will be profitable---so trade them.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (21 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

Apparently, the World's top traders don't fear loss.  That's their defining characteristic.  I didn't come up with this idea, but my experience so far seems to validate it.

Fear of loss is a natural function of the ego.  So any process that gets me beyond my ego should help me to have less fear.  Less fear should then translate to more presence of mind.  Having more presence of mind should allow me to see the market _as it is,_ rather than how I want or fear it might be.  Seeing the market as it is should translate to a sense of ease in correctly reading the market's moods.  

I like to watch poker on TV sometimes.  Good clues there I think.  The guy that wins always seems to have the greatest presence.  

There's quite a glaring paradox in trading, and that is that if you're playing purely to make money, you're less likely to win!  If you're playing simply because you enjoy the dynamics of the game (ie. you're not attached to outcome), then you're more likely to win!

edit:  Finding useful tidbits in personal development books is like panning for gold.  You have to sift through an awful lot of junk to find what you want.  And even then it might be fool's gold.


----------



## pavilion103 (21 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Gringotts Bank said:


> Apparently, the World's top traders don't fear loss.  That's their defining characteristic.  I didn't come up with this idea, but my experience so far seems to validate it.
> 
> Fear of loss is a natural function of the ego.  So any process that gets me beyond my ego should help me to have less fear.  Less fear should then translate to more presence of mind.  Having more presence of mind should allow me to see the market _as it is,_ rather than how I want or fear it might be.  Seeing the market as it is should translate to a sense of ease in correctly reading the market's moods.
> 
> ...




Interesting you mention poker. Around 5 or so years ago I got into it and absolutely loved it. I played in cheap online multi tournaments and won 7 or 8 tournaments ranging between 200 and 2,000 entrants. I see many similarities in trading and it is the love of the game that interests me.


----------



## professor_frink (21 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

Hi Matt,

whilst there is nothing wrong with personal development, personally I'd be focusing more on learning about trading first, rather than personal development.

First thing I'd do is to set up a journal so that you can record everything you learn as you go. Then testing everything you can think of, I agree with IFocus, it's the closest thing to the holy grail of trading.

In regards to the psychological aspect of trading, go and get Brett Steenbarger's books, and read his blog: http://www.traderfeed.blogspot.com/(it's no longer updated, but is a great resource). If you want information on bettering yourself as a trader, get that information from a psychologist who trades and coaches traders. More useful than a Tony Robbins seminar IMO


----------



## ChaoSI (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

I'm only a new trader, but psychology is my field so one of the few threads i have knowledge to bring to bear on 

I disagree with the need for personal development books and tools etc.
The category in itself is ironic. 
you go to someone else for your own personal development, that's like the misconception that you go to a psychologist or a life coach to find out how to live your own life. The 'consultant' is ecstatic! it's just like those what is it ... you guys call it a ..."black box" ? or something people? basically those who give out seminars selling their "AWESOME CANNOT LOSE" systems. Few of you here would believe or buy into that stuff and that's something external to your self. 
My friend told me to go read some book about cheese? "where's my cheese" or something....cheesey cool like that and i read through and i never realised that people needed to read this drivel.

I've always been quite an introspective person, i think about weird things in a great many perspectives and then i see these 'life consultants' with their bells and whistles.
and i wonder...  the human mind is one of the most adaptive and flexible things on the planet. Is there anything that the guy is spouting that you couldn't have come up with yourself? 

Imo a large part of 'personal development' is knowing yourself. Not just your roles and what you do and the superficial reason why you do stuff, but i mean REALLY know yourself, be brave enough to dig into those really dark corners of your mind.
Challenge every thought you have, the minute you say "oh it's this, always is" is the minute you close your mind to alternatives and be poorer for it. This especially applies in trading because of emotional control, when you see a stock and get all excited, you should ask.. why you are being excited? it's just a line on a graph no?

i'm going to finish up cos otherwise i'll be writing an essay. 

here's a thought i had the other day though.

People change ideas and thoughts everyday, we are shaped by the world as much as we shape it....

so why does religion persist in largely the same form.. and why can't a person believe 2 religions in the same way we have a general belief and have exceptions to this?
Isn't our mind capable of holding more than one belief at a time? Of course it can so why this seeming monogamy with a religion (including atheism)?


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> psychology is my field
> 
> Is there anything that the guy is spouting that you couldn't have come up with yourself?
> 
> ...




Just wondering if you know about ingrained patterns, habits, repetition, strong beliefs, idiosyncrasies and the like. 

One could take a psychological sledgehammer to them and never break through. Look around at how many have the basic cigarette smoking pattern. People want to change but they don't know how so seek guidance from others that have walked the path. Louise Hay and Wayne Dyer for example have plenty of ideological gems amongst their literature.  

I also agree that the personal development field has shonks exploiting the human frailty when seeking guidance on their personal life journey. Another human trait.

Bang for buck see  Anthony Robbins, wholesome reading with practical application see Wayne Dyer.

Just my opinion of course.


----------



## ChaoSI (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Wysiwyg said:


> Just wondering if you know about ingrained patterns, habits, repetition, strong beliefs, idiosyncrasies and the like.
> 
> One could take a psychological sledgehammer to them and never break through. Look around at how many have the basic cigarette smoking pattern. People want to change but they don't know how so seek guidance from others that have walked the path.
> 
> Just my opinion of course.




oh i like a good opinion  leads to good discussion 
okay for the first lot, habits and repetition... though really you could argue the first 3 things are pretty much the same thing.. 
i'm guessing you're referring to subclinical categories of these things> as opposed to like anxiety driven OCD or addictive behaviours?

habits: basically set patterns of behaviour or thought patterns derived from constant execution they basically end up as scripts for things basically come from repetition (seeing as it can't be a 'habit' if you only do it once)
on the harmless side:
1/ first dinner dates (a/ pick girl up b/ take her to restaurant c/ order food and wine d/ talk etc etc etc / guy pays for dinner after a small to and fro (depending on the girl)
2/ people who always smoke when they drink. --> not so good. (when you wanna quit)
a lot of these habits have a trigger, and this trigger sparks a sequence of thoughts in your head about the actions that you should take. By controlling your environment you can help yourself to break these patterns (known as stimulus control) or you could use the same environment and begin training a new set of behaviours with the aim that the new associations will over-ride the old ones (conditioning. but the old behaviours never go away)

as for the smoking thing: i saw my 92 year old grandmother who had started smoking at 15, who went through at least a carton of Marlborough 20's a week stop.
overnight.... why u say? cos her dentist said that her dentures won't be able to hack the nicotine. So she said "oh... okay i'll stop smoking then"
hahaha so yeah  i'm a bit biased there.
However she's exceptional. With addictive behaviours you're talking about a rewiring of the brain in response to the constant intake of a drug basically. However this can also be influenced by the environment if you always smoke at X place and you pass it everyday, every time you do your brain will actually 'prepare' for the drug intake by (can't remember the jargon here) creating compensatory shift in the brain. Which can result in a sudden craving. (argh that's a horrid explanation i know, i can clarify if you want but i'll have to double check my notes to remember how they explained it)

idiosyncracies: i know what this is, but what types of things are you referring to exactly?

strong beliefs: strong beliefs usually come about when we don't challenge the way we think, humans have a 'confirmation bias' as soon as they come up with a theory, and all evidence to the contrary is then dismissed as "the exception" (when in reality it could be the other way around)

a lesson i've learnt recently is to make sure you're seeing what is ACTUALLY there not what you THINK is there. ( i work in welfare so misinterpreting something can mean really bad news and serious consequences for a family)
Just be aware that few people see what is there, only what they THINK is there.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

I practice a 'cessation' type of meditation (aka, concentration, absorption, samatha).  I do it on my own.  

I also examine my beliefs are the most core level I'm capable of.  This is essential in order to get 'access' levels of concentration for samatha.  If there's any guilt or esteem problems (which everyone has to some degree), then that will put a halt to things before you've even started.  

I'm not into 'isms' of any sort, so I'm not a buddhist.  However if you look into  religious *practices *(as opposed to doctrine, fanfare and hoo-haa), you might see that the core practice common to all is a quietening of the inner dialogue.


----------



## ChaoSI (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Gringotts Bank said:


> I practice a 'cessation' type of meditation (aka, concentration, absorption, samatha).  I do it on my own.
> 
> ... you might see that the core practice common to all is a quietening of the inner dialogue.



 i heard that meditation gives some quite good results for people =) (goes to look up what samatha is..... oooh) so is the idea of the meditation so calm everything down to allow you to bring your conscious attention onto issues that might actually lie in your subconscious? (i've found that i can never do it properly.... i always end up falling asleep during meditation... good sleep tho )

I also find it interesting that some people look for quiet in the 'soul' or unification of the voices inside.

call me crazy :.. but i find the presence of numerous voices inside invaluable when contemplating a problem, it is literally like having 30 perspectives roaming around in your head


anybody else notice that i have waaaaay too much free time at work?


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

I find it hard too.  Thinking seems to be so tied up with who we think we are.  I didn't realize that until recently.  Sudden cessation of thought can actually be quite a shock to someone accustomed to doing a lot of thinking.  It can feel very foreign, like you shouldn't even be attempting it. 

I found relaxing the body first can help a little bit.  Also trying lots of different methods, because some will suit my natural disposition better than others.


----------



## ChaoSI (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Gringotts Bank said:


> I find it hard too.  Thinking seems to be so tied up with who we think we are.  I didn't realize that until recently.  Sudden cessation of thought can actually be quite a shock to someone accustomed to doing a lot of thinking.  It can feel very foreign, like you shouldn't even be attempting it.
> 
> I found relaxing the body first can help a little bit.  Also trying lots of different methods, because some will suit my natural disposition better than others.




well if you consider that the brain is constantly active. to actually think about nothing goes completely against the grain of what the brain's there for. it's like using an Iron to freeze water...

now that i THINK about it. you ever get those times when your eyes loose focus and you stare off into space and 'space out' ? I mean you're pretty much thinking about nothing during those periods of time yet your eyes are open. 

so the idea of what you do is to stop thinking and empty your mind?


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

Yeah mate I was presenting an idea (different from your quotes I posted) that human is a predominantly repetitive creature as is most of nature, based upon survival. The alarm goes off and the work script is practiced daily to get the money to get the food, clothing and shelter. Survival is a bit more sophisticated in most parts of the world nowadays obviously because we have the ability to improve (from a subjective point of view of course) on what has been before. 


> a lot of these habits have a trigger, and this trigger sparks a sequence of thoughts in your head about the actions that you should take.



 Could it be postulated all living organism moments are responses to triggers? 


> though really you could argue the first 3 things are pretty much the same thing..  i'm guessing you're referring to subclinical categories of these things> as opposed to like anxiety driven OCD or addictive behaviours?



Yes mate they are all alike. I am not familiar with clinical examples.


ChaoSI said:


> Just be aware that few people see what is there, only what they THINK is there.



Oh you mean reality via agreement.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> now that i THINK about it. you ever get those times when your eyes loose focus and you stare off into space and 'space out' ? I mean you're pretty much thinking about nothing during those periods of time yet your eyes are open.
> 
> so the idea of what you do is to stop thinking and empty your mind?




I think spacing out is a bit different actually.  To me, spacing out (say in front of the tv) feels like I'm disconnecting from everything, similar to if I've had a few quick drinks - it feels sort of pleasant but still separate to everything.  Concentration practice feels like I become absorbed into the object of my attention.  Subjectively, that's a much nicer and more natural feeling than 5 scotches.


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> so the idea of what you do is to stop thinking and empty your mind?



 I wonder if any studies have been done on what the self-talk is like with undesirable people. Is it loud, aggressive and nonsensical or placid, calm and calculated. I suggest negative (for want of a better word) thoughts can be replaced with positive (again) thoughts.


----------



## ChaoSI (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Wysiwyg said:


> Could it be postulated all living organism moments are responses to triggers?
> 
> Oh you mean reality via agreement.




it could indeed!
it's the big question isn't it? is everything deterministic or are we free willed? is it destiny or a free for all? 
there's physiological evidence that our DNA is altered on a constant basis in order to respond to the environment. (epigenetics it's called)
but i'm of the opinion that while there may be a destiny of sorts it's not entirely concrete it's a fluid, and adaptable thing based on the decisions you make =) (lol basically i'm sitting on the fence for this argument )

and yeah of course if everybody thinks it's right then it MUST be right..... right?
i mean.... everybody believed the world is flat... and it IS!!!.... wait... isn't it?




Gringotts Bank said:


> I think spacing out is a bit different actually.  To me, spacing out (say in front of the tv) feels like I'm disconnecting from everything, similar to if I've had a few quick drinks - it feels sort of pleasant but still separate to everything.  Concentration practice feels like I become absorbed into the object of my attention.  Subjectively, that's a much nicer and more natural feeling than 5 scotches.




hahahaha yeah you're right, it is more of a disconnection/dissociation feeling and not thinking about anything. but wow... being able to bring the whole mind onto a single problem.... pretty insane stuff Oo


----------



## ChaoSI (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Wysiwyg said:


> I wonder if any studies have been done on what the self-talk is like with undesirable people. Is it loud, aggressive and nonsensical or placid, calm and calculated. I suggest negative (for want of a better word) thoughts can be replaced with positive (again) thoughts.




lol what's "undesirable people"


----------



## Gringotts Bank (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

chaos, I found this little excerpt which might shed some more light upon "spacing out versus absorption" topic.

taken from: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/jhananumbers.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time.

After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaÃ±Ã±i-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation. 

In both these states of wrong concentration, the limited range of awareness was what made them wrong. If whole areas of your awareness are blocked off, how can you gain all-around insight? And as I've noticed in years since, people adept at blotting out large areas of awareness through powerful one-pointedness also tend to be psychologically adept at dissociation and denial. This is why Ajaan Fuang, following Ajaan Lee, taught a form of breath meditation that aimed at an all-around awareness of the breath energy throughout the body, playing with it to gain a sense of ease, and then calming it so that it wouldn't interfere with a clear vision of the subtle movements of the mind. This all-around awareness helped to eliminate the blind spots where ignorance likes to lurk.

An ideal state of concentration for giving rise to insight is one that you can analyze in terms of stress and the absence of stress even while you're in it. Once your mind was firmly established in a state of concentration, Ajaan Fuang would recommend "lifting" it from its object, but not so far that the concentration was destroyed. From that perspective, you could evaluate what levels of stress were still present in the concentration and let them go. In the initial stages, this usually involved evaluating how you were relating to the breath, and detecting more subtle levels of breath energy in the body that would provide a basis for deeper levels of stillness. Once the breath was perfectly still, and the sense of the body started dissolving into a formless mist, this process would involve detecting the perceptions of "space," "knowing," "oneness," etc., that would appear in place of the body and could be peeled away like the layers of an onion in the mind. In either case, the basic pattern was the same: detecting the level of perception or mental fabrication that was causing the unnecessary stress, and dropping it for a more subtle level of perception or fabrication until there was nothing left to drop. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds like trance/hypnotic state might be an extension of the 'spaced out' mode of being.  Anyway, there seems to be a difference.


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> i
> but i'm of the opinion that while there may be a destiny of sorts it's not entirely concrete it's a fluid, and adaptable thing based on the decisions you make =) (lol basically i'm sitting on the fence for this argument )




It is observed and experienced that control of our own thoughts/actions and even greater control, that of other people, does determine an outcome. Group control through dictatorship as in the Middle East is a glaring example. Democratic Government control being permissive control where the majority choose who will govern them. 

Many a feud begins when an individual or group tries to control another or group without consent (see life rights). Then there is subtle control as in encouragement, persuasion or stealth. Pet hate the last few.


----------



## ChaoSI (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

GB thanks fo r the link.. interesting read =)


 wysi: hate encouragement??ah but a lot of life is trying to convince or persuade others no?
partners, workmates, friends? it's a constant changing dance with the lead *supposedly* changing....

anybody else think we just hijacked this thread?


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> wysi: hate encouragement??



 Encouragement to buy something or encouragement to invest time, money and emotion, yes. 

Encouragement to achieve goals and be a righteous person, no.


----------



## ChaoSI (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Wysiwyg said:


> Encouragement to buy something or encouragement to invest time, money and emotion, yes.
> 
> Encouragement to achieve goals and be a righteous person, no.




aaaah the first i would classify as persuasion  
or marketing....
or advertising....


----------



## pavilion103 (25 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> I'm only a new trader, but psychology is my field so one of the few threads i have knowledge to bring to bear on
> 
> I disagree with the need for personal development books and tools etc.
> The category in itself is ironic.
> ...




For some reason this struck me. Religions contradict one another. It is not possible to believe 2 at the same time. Atheism believes that there is no God. Hindus believe there are many God's. Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. Buddhism doesn't acknowledge either way if there is a God or not. You can only have one belief system in this regard. Now you may be an Agnostic and acknowledge that there could be a God. Every one of these beliefs is different. 

Also with personal development I think the key isn't the idea itself, but the way the idea makes YOU think. The idea in itself is useless. What you do with the idea, how you interpret it and how it applies to you it what brings results or no results.


----------



## ChaoSI (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



pavilion103 said:


> For some reason this struck me. Religions contradict one another. It is not possible to believe 2 at the same time. Atheism believes that there is no God. Hindus believe there are many God's. Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. Buddhism doesn't acknowledge either way if there is a God or not. You can only have one belief system in this regard. Now you may be an Agnostic and acknowledge that there could be a God. Every one of these beliefs is different.
> 
> Also with personal development I think the key isn't the idea itself, but the way the idea makes YOU think. The idea in itself is useless. What you do with the idea, how you interpret it and how it applies to you it what brings results or no results.




ah see i'm not saying that you adhere to two different schools of religion. I'm saying that without evidence to confirm particularly one or the other, say a miracle actually occurred (totally contrary and inexplicable by science) would that confirm the existence of Catholicism's god or Jesus as the son of God? Islam's Allah? or Jeudaism's? Or for Buddhism's idea of an intent to the universe? OR of an option unthought of as yet? Maybe it's NOT a god that created the miracle maybe it's a giant organism that somehow did it 
It's not that one is 'right' because in the absence of specific evidence it is purely a matter of faith, the idea here is that ANY one, or combination of several could be true.
Acceptance of possibilty is what I'm suggesting and a human mind is capable of accepting possibility already as is evident by the fact that they accept something like religion in the first place! =)

LOVING this discussion


----------



## AlterEgo (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> It's not that one is 'right' because in the absence of specific evidence it is purely a matter of faith, the idea here is that ANY one, or combination of several could be true.
> Acceptance of possibilty is what I'm suggesting and a human mind is capable of accepting possibility already as is evident by the fact that they accept something like religion in the first place! =)




This is something that has always puzzled me. People can't seem to accept that any other religion other than their own could possibly be true. For someone to accept this possibility, they'd also have to accept the possibility that their own religion may be untrue, and this is something that I feel goes against human nature - they can't accept the possibility that they may be wrong.

This isn't just with religion, but with all aspects of life. People tend to think that their own opinion is always the correct one, often fiercely defending their view even if presented with evidence to the contrary. You see this in the stock market too - they can't believe their stock pick was wrong and continue holding as the stock keeps falling. The market has proven them wrong, but they can't accept that. They look for any reasons that support their own view, disregarding all other views. This is a very dangerous attitude to have in trading. If you can't quickly accept that you're wrong and get out, you're going to get very badly burnt.


----------



## ChaoSI (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



AlterEgo said:


> This is something that has always puzzled me. People can't seem to accept that any other religion other than their own could possibly be true. For someone to accept this possibility, they'd also have to accept the possibility that their own religion may be untrue, and this is something that I feel goes against human nature - they can't accept the possibility that they may be wrong.




Good point, Question for you 
if one is true do the others have to be false? (atheism excepted)



AlterEgo said:


> This isn't just with religion, but with all aspects of life. People tend to think that their own opinion is always the correct one, often fiercely defending their view even if presented with evidence to the contrary. You see this in the stock market too - they can't believe their stock pick was wrong and continue holding as the stock keeps falling. The market has proven them wrong, but they can't accept that. They look for any reasons that support their own view, disregarding all other views. This is a very dangerous attitude to have in trading. If you can't quickly accept that you're wrong and get out, you're going to get very badly burnt.




confirmation bias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


----------



## AlterEgo (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> Good point, Question for you
> if one is true do the others have to be false? (atheism excepted)




In general, yes, I think so. However, having said that, there are many similarities between some religions, so some parts could still be regarded as true while other parts may have to be regarded as false.



ChaoSI said:


> confirmation bias:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias




Yes, so any unexplained 'miracle' that happens they accept as proof that their god exists, but they don't see any disaster that happens as proof that their god doesn't exist (ie. if their god was 'good' he wouldn't have allowed it to happen).


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



AlterEgo said:


> This isn't just with religion, but with all aspects of life. People tend to think that their own opinion is always the correct one, often fiercely defending their view even if presented with evidence to the contrary.



Even with sensory realities such as ice and fire, people have different opinions. I assume this is because of varying sensory sensitivity and experience or just plain old dumb belief. Highly unlikely two minds will have the same recordings.


----------



## ChaoSI (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



Wysiwyg said:


> Even with sensory realities such as ice and fire, people have different opinions. I assume this is because of varying sensory sensitivity and experience or just plain old dumb belief. Highly unlikely two minds will have the same recordings.




because ultimately what we experience is purely unique and what is 'seen' and 'heard' is actually just stimulus that is interpreted by the brain. So, because with either stimulus we have to convert it from what is actually there (say, em waves for light and mechanical waves for sound) into an electrical signal which is then processed....

and the "realities" are just the consensus of their experience but just cos everybody else feels that way doesn't necessarily mean that it is right 



AlterEgo said:


> In general, yes, I think so. However, having said that, there are many similarities between some religions, so some parts could still be regarded as true while other parts may have to be regarded as false.




but yeah so what i mean is, without the actual 'miracle do-er' coming out of hiding and saying "i'm the god of catholicism and this was my miracle" there's no way to be sure WHICH religious figure pulled it off.


----------



## pavilion103 (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> because ultimately what we experience is purely unique and what is 'seen' and 'heard' is actually just stimulus that is interpreted by the brain. So, because with either stimulus we have to convert it from what is actually there (say, em waves for light and mechanical waves for sound) into an electrical signal which is then processed....
> 
> and the "realities" are just the consensus of their experience but just cos everybody else feels that way doesn't necessarily mean that it is right
> 
> ...




Any belief is going to be based on faith be it religion or aethism. 

The question is to ask, which is the most reliable. What does the most evidence point towards. Like with anything in life it is wise to have an opinion based on fact but at the end of the day there is also faith of course. Just like you or I have faith eating at a restaurant. We don't know who the chef is or if he has poisoned the food, but we consider the facts: Is the restuarant reputable, have friends gone there and had a good experience etc...

Which is most reliable based on historical/legal evidence. With the case of religion (any of the religions) is cannot be proven scientifically because that would you require taking it in a lab and testing it in the present moment. No historical event can be tested scientifically. You can't prove scientifically that Napoleon, Socrates or any religious figure existed. You need to test is by historical/legal evidence. You cannot test history in a scientific manner. So you ask is the Koran reliable as a historical document, is the Bible reliable as a historical document etc....

Then ask yourself, based on the documents, evidence, accounts, motives (like in a court case) which evidence stands up the best. We apply this standard to everything else in history so it makes sense. For anyone to say God exists because he did this miracle 3 weeks ago, or he doens't exist because he caused a flood is ridiculous.


----------



## ChaoSI (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



pavilion103 said:


> Any belief is going to be based on faith be it religion or aethism.
> 
> The question is to ask, which is the most reliable. What does the most evidence point towards. Like with anything in life it is wise to have an opinion based on fact but at the end of the day there is also faith of course. Just like you or I have faith eating at a restaurant. We don't know who the chef is or if he has poisoned the food, but we consider the facts: Is the restuarant reputable, have friends gone there and had a good experience etc...
> 
> ...




See i'm talking about religion as a belief that doesn't allow for multiple beliefs, if you believe one you cannot believe the other yeah ? so you can't really be a Christian Muslim for instance because if believed in their entirety they contradict, however, taking the common elements out of both, in that they both believe in a god (just to make things simple) and A god did a miracle, there's no way in being sure 'which' god did it?

say with your restaurant example. you've eaten and HUGE numbers of reputable restuarants and you have a surprise dish prepared from a restaurant and it is incredible, completely mindblowing, and you get told that it is from a reputable restuarant and immediately you think "oh it must be THAT restaurant" one which is within your knowledge and quite possibly you'll start thinking of confirmatory evidence. But there's nothing there to suggest that the dish came from any of the restaurants that you've visited, could be one that you hadn't even heard of (or gotten to eating at). But we don't think that do we? 
(bit of a weird example )

as for the miracle thing my dad argued that you could tell which god it was based on where it happened? Which countered saying that if a god existed and he is indeed all powerful, then couldn't they will a miracle to occur ANYWHERE in the world? Although we intuitively think "well they'd make it happen where the believers are... right?" but on the flipside maybe the intention was to put it in a place where NON believers were with a purpose of enlightenment?
but there's no way of actually knowing based on the evidence of that moment.
This is what is there: A miracle occurred which totally defies any explanation.
What some people may see: GOD EXISTS!! SEE!! My religion was right! God EXISTS!!

but that's not what is there is it? just what people want to see...


----------



## pavilion103 (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> See i'm talking about religion as a belief that doesn't allow for multiple beliefs, if you believe one you cannot believe the other yeah ? so you can't really be a Christian Muslim for instance because if believed in their entirety they contradict, however, taking the common elements out of both, in that they both believe in a god (just to make things simple) and A god did a miracle, there's no way in being sure 'which' god did it?
> 
> say with your restaurant example. you've eaten and HUGE numbers of reputable restuarants and you have a surprise dish prepared from a restaurant and it is incredible, completely mindblowing, and you get told that it is from a reputable restuarant and immediately you think "oh it must be THAT restaurant" one which is within your knowledge and quite possibly you'll start thinking of confirmatory evidence. But there's nothing there to suggest that the dish came from any of the restaurants that you've visited, could be one that you hadn't even heard of (or gotten to eating at). But we don't think that do we?
> (bit of a weird example )
> ...




There is certainly a bias towards one's beliefs for sure and we will tend to confirm that by circumstances. If we are looking for blue cars and we will see more blue cars. 

Like I said, miracles aren't the way to prove the existance of a God. The historical reliablility of the religious books people believe in are the way to prove which book is most reliable and thus which "God." (if any)


----------



## tech/a (26 February 2011)

*Re: Trading Psychology - Personal Development*

*Trading Psychology*

The easiest way to gain control of you psychology I find is

*(1)* Trade within your capital limits. (Dont trade 20X leverage if you only have a $5k account). learn the correct way to leverage.

*(2)* Have a blue print of expected outcomes from rigorous testing which you can compare your trading.

*(3)* Learn to position size correctly.

*(4)* Learn to place stops correctly.

My testing has shown stops of less than 5% of price have the highest rate of failure regardless of method of placement
Stops of 8-12% of price seem to be the sweet spot regardless of method of placement.
Stops of 15% and greater are least likely to be hit* BUT* trade frequency decreases as does trade profitability as we find ourselves stuck in trades which are *NEITHER* in profit nor stopped out!


----------



## professor_frink (26 February 2011)

I've moved this thread over to general chat and modified the thread title slightly considering it's not really about trading anymore.

Cheers


----------



## tech/a (26 February 2011)

professor_frink said:


> I've moved this thread over to general chat and modified the thread title slightly considering it's not really about trading anymore.
> 
> Cheers




I tried.


----------



## Joules MM1 (4 October 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2012/sep/25/how-brain-filters-bad-news

*How the brain filters bad news*

excerpt



> ...the volunteers were given the same negative cues – cancer, robbery, missing a flight and so on – and had to estimate again the chance that each event would happen to them at some point. The scientists then analysed the answers to see how people's views shifted after they had been given accurate information.
> 
> The results were enlightening.......


----------



## Wysiwyg (9 June 2016)

*Re: Personal Development*



ChaoSI said:


> I disagree with the need for personal development books and tools etc.



How would anyone know how to better their lives or wrestle back control if not through learning (what they want) from those who have walked the path already? How many people are having their strings pulled or being manipulated unbeknownst to themselves? Are our thoughts our own or are they thoughts projected onto us from others? 
Daily, someone is trying to push us one way or another for their own personal jolly's, to gain financial advantage, to gain favour or for psychological leverage to break an individual down.


----------



## Quant (11 June 2016)

Tradingwise psychology becomes a moot point if you develop statistically robust, empirically proven rules based systems with binary style decision making processes . Thinking is pre-done so no pesky emotions involved like discretionary styles . Stronger confidence is inbuilt as there is a tangible probability ( compared to discretionary ) . Using systems correctly forces you to face realities and correct misconceptions ( if you measure it you can improve it )   Positive expectancy is the realm of systems traders for a competent systems trader with negative expectancy will cease to trade ....

the confidence of a systems trader is based upon a definable statistical advantage ( Edge ) not a tony robbins style  " you can do it , just believe "


----------



## tech/a (11 June 2016)

Quant said:


> Tradingwise psychology becomes a moot point if you develop statistically robust, empirically proven rules based systems with binary style decision making processes . Thinking is pre-done so no pesky emotions involved like discretionary styles . Stronger confidence is inbuilt as there is a tangible probability ( compared to discretionary ) . Using systems correctly forces you to face realities and correct misconceptions ( if you measure it you can improve it )   Positive expectancy is the realm of systems traders for a competent systems trader with negative expectancy will cease to trade ....
> 
> the confidence of a systems trader is based upon a definable statistical advantage ( Edge ) not a tony robbins style  " you can do it , just believe "




Cant agree more.
The Fundamental truth right here.


----------



## Wysiwyg (3 November 2016)

I identify myself as a mostly self actualising person. Certainly not having all the qualities listed below. Have a block with -  

*Order: lawfulness, rightness, perfectly arranged* --- human disorder is everywhere and seems a normal part of existence. 
*Aliveness: process, not-deadness, spontaneity, self-regulation, full-functioning* --- feel suppressed by other people. Their want to take from me against my will. Interfering in my life like wanting to take control / determine outcomes    

Abraham Maslow ---

*Qualities of self-actualizing people*

He realized that all the individuals he studied had similar personality traits. All were "reality centered," able to differentiate what was fraudulent from what was genuine. They were also "problem centered," meaning that they treated life's difficulties as problems that demanded solutions. These individuals also were comfortable being alone and had healthy personal relationships. They had only a few close friends and family rather than a large number of shallow relationships.[34]

Self-actualizing people tend to focus on problems outside themselves; have a clear sense of what is true and what is false; are spontaneous and creative; and are not bound too strictly by social conventions.

Maslow noticed that self-actualized individuals had a better insight of reality, deeply accepted themselves, others and the world, and also had faced many problems and were known to be impulsive people. These self-actualized individuals were very independent and private when it came to their environment and culture, especially their very own individual development on "potentialities and inner resources".[35]

According to Maslow, self-actualizing people share the following qualities:


Truth: honest, reality, beauty, pure, clean and unadulterated completeness
    Goodness: rightness, desirability, uprightness, benevolence, honesty
    Beauty: rightness, form, aliveness, simplicity, richness, wholeness, perfection, completion,
    Wholeness: unity, integration, tendency to oneness, interconnectedness, simplicity, organization, structure, 
order, not dissociated, synergy
Dichotomy: transcendence: acceptance, resolution, integration, polarities, opposites, contradictions
    Aliveness: process, not-deadness, spontaneity, self-regulation, full-functioning
    Unique: idiosyncrasy, individuality, non comparability, novelty
    Perfection: nothing superfluous, nothing lacking, everything in its right place, just-rightness, suitability, justice
    Necessity: inevitability: it must be just that way, not changed in any slightest way
    Completion: ending, justice, fulfillment
    Justice: fairness, suitability, disinterestedness, non partiality,
    Order: lawfulness, rightness, perfectly arranged
    Simplicity: nakedness, abstract, essential skeletal, bluntness
    Richness: differentiation, complexity, intricacy, totality
    Effortlessness: ease; lack of strain, striving, or difficulty
    Playfulness: fun, joy, amusement
    Self-sufficiency: autonomy, independence, self-determining.


----------



## tech/a (3 November 2016)

Me----I'm a duck.


----------



## PharmBBs (2 December 2016)

I'm really into Carl Jung. I find archetypes to be a very useful construct for dealing with challenging new situations and just for a confidence boost. 

As for trading and psychology, I don't buy into the whole "you must be completely unemotional/stoic when trading". I actually find that some (but not necessarily all) people who believe in that MO act very irrationally. My dad comes to mind actually. He always pretended to be unemotive, logical and stoic, and he certainly appeared that way but at the end of the day he was just repressing, hiding the emotions from himself and his investment decisions were very emotional. So instead of pretending to be logical, I try to channel that emotion productively. Like if I'm riding a high on the stock rollercoaster, I will channel that optimistic impulsive energy into doing a lot of research on the companies I feel super keen on. As opposed to buying impulsively. Take this with a grain of salt though, I haven't done a lot of trading on account of being a former broke uni student (I have done trading but it's always been small amounts and I have played a fair bit of the ASX stockmarket game if that counts for anything though lol). 

@WYSIWYG
I like Maslow's heirarchy of needs. It's a good go to for me if I'm feeling down and I don't know why. I can and have used the heirarchy to troubleshoot my emotions if I feel a bit off. 

Some of you have also brought up religion... I identify as agnostic and a nihilist. I don't really know if there is a god or not. I do however feel inclined to believe that there is no inherent objective meaning to anything. Some people find this belief disturbing but I think that if you can confront the abyss/void and accept it, it can be quite liberating.


----------

