# Account Knocked back



## nev25 (25 July 2009)

I tried to open a CFD Trading Account 
And they wouldnt open it because I told them I didnt have any savings

What business is it them how much money I have or dont have


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## wonderrman (25 July 2009)

so how were you planning on trading with no money? i don't know if you realise this, but you NEED money to BUY cfds. 

wonder.


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## wayneL (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> I tried to open a CFD Trading Account
> And they wouldnt open it because I told them I didnt have any savings
> 
> What business is it them how much money I have or dont have




Because it is a leveraged account. With ordinary shares, you basically can't go past zero. With leveraged instruments such as futures and CFDs you can go way past zero. Example AMP a few years ago.

They need to be able to come back at you for losses and they prefer cash, as they have no use for your first born male child and/or your left testicle.

It's due diligence.


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## trainspotter (25 July 2009)

LOL @ WayneL for the teste and first born son jibe. Too late for me ... wife has got both already !! She is not a signatory on the cheque account though !!!


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## nev25 (25 July 2009)

wonderrman said:


> so how were you planning on trading with no money? i don't know if you realise this, but you NEED money to BUY cfds.
> 
> wonder.




Missing the point

Why do I need to prove I have savings

A plumbers doesn't ask to see your bank statements before he fixes your plumbing


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## wayneL (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Missing the point
> 
> Why do I need to prove I have savings
> 
> A plumbers doesn't ask to see your bank statements before he fixes your plumbing


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## springhill (25 July 2009)

wayneL said:


> Because it is a leveraged account. With ordinary shares, you basically can't go past zero. With leveraged instruments such as futures and CFDs you can go way past zero. Example AMP a few years ago.
> 
> They need to be able to come back at you for losses and they prefer cash, as they have no use for your first born male child and/or your left testicle.
> 
> It's due diligence.




Agreed, with the number of guys willing to 'give their left nut to root that' its a flooded market, so virtually worthless


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## springhill (25 July 2009)

wayneL said:


> Because it is a leveraged account. With ordinary shares, you basically can't go past zero. With leveraged instruments such as futures and CFDs you can go way past zero. Example AMP a few years ago.
> 
> They need to be able to come back at you for losses and they prefer cash, as they have no use for your first born male child and/or your left testicle.
> 
> It's due diligence.






nev25 said:


> Missing the point
> 
> Why do I need to prove I have savings
> 
> A plumbers doesn't ask to see your bank statements before he fixes your plumbing




Clear as mud?


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## Timmy (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Missing the point
> 
> Why do I need to prove I have savings
> 
> A plumbers doesn't ask to see your bank statements before he fixes your plumbing





When you open a CFD account you are basically lent money by the CFD firm to trade with, it is a similar idea to a line of credit.  Now, you don't necessarily *have *to trade with this money they will lend you, but you can if you want to.  If you trade with this money they lend you and you lose it, they need to be repaid the loan regardless, hence the firm wants to see some security (savings are one form of security) before lending you this money.


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## tech/a (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Missing the point
> 
> Why do I need to prove I have savings
> 
> A plumbers doesn't ask to see your bank statements before he fixes your plumbing






But a prudent plumber who was asked to do a job big enough would ask for credit references.
If you still went ahead--couldnt pay--chances are he'd have a caveat on your home eventually.
Are you in the habit of over stretching your non existant capital base?


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## knocker (25 July 2009)

**** happins hey bro. I'll go guarantor for you if you like.

regards

KNOCKER


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## Sir Burr (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> What business is it them how much money I have or dont have




I feel your pain.
Yesterday I applied online to have some software coding quoted by a programmer and his reply email asked for my contact details.

Why should I give him my private information


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## nev25 (25 July 2009)

Ok



wonderrman said:


> but you NEED money to BUY cfds.
> 
> 
> wonder.




But



Timmy said:


> When you open a CFD account you are basically lent money by the CFD firm to trade with,.


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## beamstas (25 July 2009)

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL


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## >Apocalypto< (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Missing the point
> 
> Why do I need to prove I have savings
> 
> A plumbers doesn't ask to see your bank statements before he fixes your plumbing




If you can't understand why they ask for this. I would say don't trade CFDs or trade any leveraged products.

The key concept here is *risk management....... *

some say that's a very important part of trading.....


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## Aussiest (25 July 2009)

Finally, someone who knows less than me.

LOL, LOL.

Are you serious nev25?

To cut a long story short, they will subsidize some of the value of the share for you, but you have to have the initial deposit. If the price of the share falls below that at which you bought it, the provider will either ask for more money from you or close down your position so that they can keep your deposit. Because you committed to buying those shares at $XX, the provider will ALWAYS get their deposit.


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## prawn_86 (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Ok
> But




So whats going to happen when you lose their money? Of course they will want it back, hence why they need to know that you can repay it if/when you do lose it.


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## trainspotter (25 July 2009)

*IF* And it's a big IF Nev25 you open this account (with no cash in the bank) and you trade and make a LOSS (heaven forbid) How do you intend to pay it back? 

Where does this leave the credit provider? Under the UCCC (Uniform Credit Control Contract) you have used these monies for business purposes and I think you would find they are entitled to compensation _*ie*_ THEIR MONEY BACK !! 

On the other hand under "Due diligence" (which has been stated previously) the credit provider did not ask you if you had capital to repay then they would be left with no recompense course of action.

Why did you not tell a LIE and advise them you had 10k in the kitty? Ohhhhh ... that's right ... you are honest. So logically as an honest person you would understand that NO ONE is going to lend credit with no capacity to repay. Go and buy a lotto ticket.


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## wonderrman (25 July 2009)

This man is very funny. obviously you do not have the mental capacity to be able to trade. if you can't get your head around the fact that you NEED sufficient capital (capital = savings = money) to be able to open an account.

go back in your cave and leave trading for another day i would think. 

w.


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## awg (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> I tried to open a CFD Trading Account
> And they wouldnt open it because I told them I didnt have any savings
> 
> What business is it them how much money I have or dont have





The previous answers made the point, but for a complete newbie, maybe not clear enough.

You HAVE to have YOUR cash in the account to meet the margin on any open trade.

If the amount of your cash falls below the margin, the provider will close out your positions, so they dont lose money.

BUT, sometimes, possibly, they cant close them quick enough, for your margin to cover the losses. ( under various scenarios..ie huge market crash)

This means you would owe them money, additional to what you put into the account.

You would be sent a legally enforceable bill

That is why they prefer to know you can afford to pay.

If you carefully read the PDS for the providers, this is explained.

An example..GFT expects you to stump up $3500 to open an account, but you can withdraw most of that, and trade smaller amounts.

Be aware that most new CFD users "blow" their account, which is why they are always chasing new customers!


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## trainspotter (25 July 2009)

Glad you cleared that up awg. Thanks mate. Appreciate it.


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## awg (25 July 2009)

No worries Trainspotter, any time cobber.

was not trying to be condescending

Waynes answer covered it, but all this talk of testicles, plumbing and newborns made my groin ache, and may have left Nev needing more specific detail.

Hey Nev...you can use your Mastercard to transfer the funds, if you have a sufficient credit limit, you will be able to find a provider to open an account.

They wont give a Rats backside, as the you will have to pay yr mastercard bill, not the provider.

IMO, this would be unwise, as I previously said, most CFD newbies fail, others can maybe provide more accurate stats, I have heard 60-90%.

Others may disagree, but IMO demo trading is a must for CFD, before risking your money.

I believe IG markets are quite properly strict in regards opening new accounts...is that who knocked you back?


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## nev25 (25 July 2009)

wonderrman said:


> This man is very funny. obviously you do not have the mental capacity to be able to trade. if you can't get your head around the fact that you NEED sufficient capital (capital = savings = money) to be able to open an account.
> 
> go back in your cave and leave trading for another day i would think.
> 
> w.




Thats what I like about this forum
Its full of D-Heads and Smart-Ar*e comments

Back to my post

I do have access to many thousands of dollars
But they are not savings

I have been trading shares (small time) for many years and still have shares but that is not savings.

My bet would be Donald Trump wont have any savings 
But he would have Investments And thats not savings

The Gent I spoke to on the phone (You are right awg re-IG markets)
said no has to be savings
Didn't ask Network Didnt ask assessable fund didn't ask credit  card  
ASKED SAVING IN BANK

So the master card thing wont work
I want to move into trading CFDs and IG Markets offer a 6 week course and I wanted to do it

But no saving no account 

Incidental the account in question has a compulsory stop loss
One would assume the sensible trader is going to calculate the worse case scenario and make sure he has the funds or access to the funds to cover it??


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## awg (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Thats what I like about this forum
> Its full of D-Heads and Smart-Ar*e comments
> 
> Back to my post
> ...




Just do a cash transfer from your Credit-card to your Bank account if you are that keen to get started.

However, I would not personally do that, due to high interest costs.

Equity loan of some sort would be much cheaper

I would not trade CFDs unless I had access to at least 2-3k cash minimum.

Also, unless the stop loss is a Guaranteed stop loss, means next to nothing.

Doesnt sound like you are a complete newbie.

I understand IG put in place the account restrictions for several reasons, including fiduciary duty, and also losses on small accounts


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## trainspotter (25 July 2009)

Hey ... I resemble that remark. Why didn't you just say so? Awg is onto something here and his (advice) is sound in it's approach. Unfortunatley the "cash" component is a prerequisite for opening a CFD account. Sorry to you if the attack was similar to seagulls on a chip. Nature of the beast I am afraid.


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## Timmy (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Thats what I like about this forum
> Its full of D-Heads and Smart-Ar*e comments
> 
> Back to my post
> ...




Talk to someone in charge there.  Tell 'em what you are trying to achieve.  They probably gunna want to see some cash at least, see if you can come up with a coupla K, keep 'em happy.  Gotta be around the bureaucratic stuff.


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## CapnBirdseye (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Incidental the account in question has a compulsory stop loss
> One would assume the sensible trader is going to calculate the worse case scenario and make sure he has the funds or access to the funds to cover it??




Lets say for instance you were long on some big American Bank overnight.  You have 5% stop, equating to say $2000 of your account - which is lets say $5000. 

All good yes.  Lets say that after trading the bank announces that they have lots of bad bad debt - just for instance.

Well the next day they open -30%.

Sounds like a $12,000 loss straight off.  Your account is now in deficit.  

This is where the CFD provider would like to know that you have enough cash on hand to cover this the next day.  Read the small print, I'm sure it's there.


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## cutz (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Thats what I like about this forum
> Its full of D-Heads and Smart-Ar*e comments
> 
> Back to my post
> ...




Nah that's not true, just gotta read between the lines,

Really it's a non issue, the CFD providers require proof that you've got savings,  what's the big deal,  if you have access to thousands why don't you draw down on your LOC or whatever it is and pop in the savings account, problem solved.

Mind you it's not something i'd recommend or would do personally so any beginner reading this don't do the above with the intent of trading CFDs ( or any other volatile derivative ), you're better off at Crown, at least you won't lose more than your initial stake.


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## Iggy_Pop (25 July 2009)

If you do not have the spare cash available, don't go there


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## NeuromanceR (25 July 2009)

trainspotter said:


> Go and buy a lotto ticket.




Indeed. Buy one for next weeks Powerball.
And if you win, say...$80 million...then you can open your CFD account.


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## springhill (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Thats what I like about this forum
> Its full of D-Heads and Smart-Ar*e comments




If you dont like it theres a place called HotCopper, go try your luck there


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## beamstas (25 July 2009)

LOL

Im a 20 year old uni student and they couldn't wait to give me an account. They called me 3-4 times just to check everything was fine and they were even prepared to show me how to place an order over the phone, just incase i didn't know how to actually get in the market.

Obviously something is not right if they'll give an account to a 20 year old uni student with no assets other than a 1992 ford falcon.


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## nev25 (25 July 2009)

beamstas said:


> LOL
> 
> Im a 20 year old uni student and they couldn't wait to give me an account. They called me 3-4 times just to check everything was fine and they were even prepared to show me how to place an order over the phone, just incase i didn't know how to actually get in the market.
> 
> Obviously something is not right if they'll give an account to a 20 year old uni student with no assets other than a 1992 ford falcon.




How much in savings did you tell them you have


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## beamstas (25 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> How much in savings did you tell them you have




Cant remember but it wasnt much.
I dont use them anymore, though.


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## jono1887 (25 July 2009)

beamstas said:


> LOL
> 
> Im a 20 year old uni student and they couldn't wait to give me an account. They called me 3-4 times just to check everything was fine and they were even prepared to show me how to place an order over the phone, just incase i didn't know how to actually get in the market.
> 
> Obviously something is not right if they'll give an account to a 20 year old uni student with no assets other than a 1992 ford falcon.




LOL, so who gave you this account?


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## Kryzz (25 July 2009)

I was knocked back for an account from IG markets bout a year ago, same situation as beamstas, reasoing, because i was a student, even though the savings i told i them "i had" , would have been more than enough for anyone to open an account.


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## beerwm (25 July 2009)

Kryzz said:


> I was knocked back for an account from IG markets bout a year ago, same situation as beamstas, reasoing, because i was a student, even though the savings i told i them "i had" , would have been more than enough for anyone to open an account.




how did they know you were a student..

did u apply online?


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## Kryzz (26 July 2009)

i think i put it in the 'occupation' field, yep was online.


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## ROE (26 July 2009)

nev25 said:


> Missing the point
> 
> Why do I need to prove I have savings
> 
> A plumbers doesn't ask to see your bank statements before he fixes your plumbing




When someone lend you money to play with highly leverage instruments, they want to know if they can get their money back..based on their analysis you cant pay back if you lose so they reject you simple as that. 

and a wise plumber probably wont fix your plumb at all if you got no cash in the bank 

They are in the business of making money not losing money


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## jet328 (26 July 2009)

Its very simple, like most companies CFD companies are there to make a profit. There is no point in them wasting time, money, resources, data feeds for someone with $100 life savings.
Secondly in my business experience, its the tiny customers (who think they are so important) that are usually by far the worst to deal with....


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## gordon2007 (26 July 2009)

springhill said:


> If you dont like it theres a place called HotCopper, go try your luck there




These type of statements truely crap me off. Sledging another web sight does not make this a better web sight. This web sight is NOT the be all of stock forums. There are many other good sights. With thta said, I do think this is one of the better places to post. 

I don't post on hopcopper either. However they must be doing something right because they've been around for quite some time and appear to be profitable. 

These types of statements does not make anyone here classier, a better trader or a better person. And it does make this a better sight.


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## beamstas (26 July 2009)

I put accountant in the occupation field, maybe that's why they gave me an account


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## marknz88 (26 July 2009)

I also opend an account with IG being a student and had no troubles, although initially they would only allow me to trade with a GSL account (im assuming because I was a student and only had what you would call minimal savings). Easy to get around that though, just apply for a 'trader' account online once they open it and it was fine.


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## beerwm (26 July 2009)

'self employed' is always a good occupation,

i really dont understand this thread though, how are you supposed to trade without any money?

-and why not just "bend" the truth.


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## gordon2007 (26 July 2009)

beerwm said:


> and why not just "bend" the truth.




I'm no legal expert, but I'm under the impression that falsifying loan requests forms and or requesting access to funds via false pretenses is a criminal offence?


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## nev25 (26 July 2009)

beerwm said:


> i really dont understand this thread though, how are you supposed to trade without any money?
> .




...



nev25 said:


> I do have access to many thousands of dollars
> But they are not savings
> 
> I have been trading shares (small time) for many years and still have shares but that is not savings.
> ...


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## weird (26 July 2009)

Never traded CFDs, but I would be amazed to see 100% margin provided with nothing backing it, and if going long, where is the interest being drawn from with no money in the account, also where do the losses come from ... if no money in your account ?

Most people trading are expected to lose. I take pride in being a very good loser, it is about being a manager of bad trades.

So they are basically saying put up or shut up ... it's their rules ... which sounds fair for all the other traders with them, so no individual or individuals blow up to their detriment ... I would actually be grateful that they have such requirements in place, if joining them.


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## jono1887 (27 July 2009)

weird said:


> I take pride in being a very good loser, it is about being a manager of bad trades.




LOL... I don't think many people take pride in their losses...


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## wayneL (27 July 2009)

jono1887 said:


> LOL... I don't think many people take pride in their losses...




Pride in being a good loser is very different to taking pride in losses.


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## GumbyLearner (27 July 2009)

Maybe the originator of this thread could apply for a NINJA loan in the US.


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## nunthewiser (27 July 2009)

jono1887 said:


> LOL... I don't think many people take pride in their losses...





i know i do . very proud of the fact i can walk away with a loss of my choosing

but hey if i never had a loss like so many others seem to portray i,d probably be proud of that too 

i think i will stick with reality and leave the 100% success traders to there wrist exercising stories


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## springhill (27 July 2009)

gordon2007 said:


> These type of statements truely crap me off. Sledging another web sight does not make this a better web sight. This web sight is NOT the be all of stock forums. There are many other good sights. With thta said, I do think this is one of the better places to post.
> 
> I don't post on hopcopper either. However they must be doing something right because they've been around for quite some time and appear to be profitable.
> 
> These types of statements does not make anyone here classier, a better trader or a better person. And it does make this a better sight.




If anything it was a compliment to HC  HE was the one sledging ASF, i merely suggested another sight where he might have more luck/less 'D-heads'
People who read between the lines incorrectly, or only see what they want to see truely crap me off


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## beamstas (27 July 2009)

gordon2007 said:


> These type of statements truely crap me off. Sledging another web sight does not make this a better web sight. This web sight is NOT the be all of stock forums. There are many other good sights. With thta said, I do think this is one of the better places to post.
> 
> I don't post on hopcopper either. However they must be doing something right because they've been around for quite some time and appear to be profitable.
> 
> These types of statements does not make anyone here classier, a better trader or a better person. And it does make this a better sight.




*Sight*
Definitions of sight on the Web:
an instance of visual perception; "the sight of his wife brought him back to reality"; "the train was an unexpected sight" 
www.wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

*Site*
Definitions of sight on the Web:
A single or collection of related Web pages.
www.datatronics.net/glossary_of_web_terms.htm


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## Timmy (27 July 2009)

beamstas said:


> *Sight*
> Definitions of sight on the Web:
> an instance of visual perception; "the sight of his wife brought him back to reality"; "the train was an unexpected sight"
> www.wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
> ...




thanks beamstas


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## beamstas (27 July 2009)

Timmy said:


> thanks beamstas




lmfao
i actually copied and pasted it too
must be a common mistake


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