# Basic trading using trendlines



## grah33 (16 January 2015)

i'm getting use to all this but would like some clarification .  say i'm interested in buying in some stock that is currently trending upward - eg cba. i draw the trendline , and it's still going up, but HOW DO I KNOW WHEN TO COME IN?  the price may not necessarily go down to the line and bounce off it in the near future.  

say i'm already in and the trendline is broken some time later on.  if i see volume and the price breaking lower than the trendline, is that the time to sell, or should i wait and see - a ranging time may occur which is followed by another up trend.  basically when would i sell and what volume effect would i be looking for.

i'm more intersted in using basic volume at this point rather than indicators, as i need to understand what kind of volume i'm looking for before i can understand what the  indicator is telling me.

 i've been looking for this answer but not found it yet. hoping to get a quick answer  and save some time.  hope my question doesn't bother anyone. thanks.


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## Gordon7 (18 January 2015)

Hi grah,

I'll give some of my own general guidelines and approach for you.

From experience trading off a trendline can be one of the most profitable and less demanding methods of trading stocks. Make it simple. You don't need to rely on volume and indicators for this in my opinion. Just visually check the stock is in an uptrend (refer to the surrounding price action). 

I would take a trade with a move or bounce off of the trendline. For me this can sometimes simply mean a move above the high of the day that the stock hit the trendline, or a break through a short term downsloping trendline produced as the stock retreated to the trendline (the gentler the better !). At this stage I am unlikely to have a price target nor do I need one.

If you want to look for an entry _within _the price action itself above the trendline then I would say look for any chart pattern that is valid in its own right. The only difference here is that the chart pattern happens to occur within the context of an uptrend. However, if your stop is to be based on the upsloping trendline then you need to ensure that your stop loss is not too far away, otherwise you might as well play the chart pattern in its own right. 

As a general rule I would place a stop loss on an end of day close below the trendline that is not immediately recovered the next trading day.

The break of an established trendline means for me that a change in trend is now likely and can lead to, just about anything. Perhaps it will be sideways wide ranging action (horrible to trade within until a pattern emerges) or it could mean an immediate move to the downside, or maybe it does trend higher still (but even then it can be in a different manner to the original uptrend.

If anyone finds anything I wrote above of interest I could provide practical examples when I have time.


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## Julia (18 January 2015)

Gordon, I'm always interested in any comments from people using trends, and thank you.


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## CanOz (18 January 2015)

Interesting discussion. I tend to use trend lines to provide context and while i would use them in pattern trading EOD futures and equities, i don't use them much when i intra-day trade....the reason for that is that i had developed (with the help of a coder) an auto trend-line trading system that ran on NinjaTrader. The system worked quite well in terms of identifying the intra-day trends, it was quite variable. It could not be profitable however as there was no 'edge'. I tested it for weeks on on all kinds of markets and while it had some great moments and it was a fascinating learning process, it was not a profitable method to trade on its own. 

That said, there are always lots of stops around trends lines, so sometimes its a bit self fulfilling and the resulting stop run can be the catalyst for a new trend....

Useful but not profitable on their own is my experience.

Cheers,


CanOz


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## Gordon7 (20 January 2015)

To help illustrate my method of trading trendlines, I thought I would want to do this in close to real time as possible because it’s too easy to do this in hindsight and find great looking clear cut examples. 
*
Please Note* – I may or may not trade any of the 4 following stocks I cover below. I consider all 4 stocks to be at least in an intermediate term uptrend. 

Who knows, all 4 candidates may never have their entries triggered or all 4 could be triggered and quickly fail. The stop loss however, in all cases is theoretically small. The 4 candidates are SGH, SHJ, TNE and VOC.

My charts and comments are as of end-of-day Monday. I may not be able to get all my analysis with charts up before the market opens or even today.

Before I will even place a trade I make an assessment of the current trading environment for the type of stocks I am interested in. These days because of the big divergence between the performance of Mining vs Industrials I base my decision on the XNJ (maybe one or two other indices) rather than the XJO. My focus here is on some Industrial stocks. I also place importance on a technical outlook for the US market.

My current outlook is Neutral, meaning I want better than average trading candidates.


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## Gordon7 (20 January 2015)

*SGH*

(Blueish circles are my past entry points according to my trading strategy).

My trendline is drawn from the October lows. 

Positives 
– Possible early entry into an ascending triangle. I don't consider the false break as a complete failure of this pattern yet in the context of its size. We will know soon enough !

Negatives 
-  The spacing between hits is too small indicating this could be a struggling and hence vulnerable trend (though this may still be an ascending triangle type pattern in development)   
– There was a false break to new highs. 
- The pullback off the highs has been too swift for my liking. In this case I would ideally want to see some short term consolidation before a move back upwards. 
– Heavy resistance around $6.50 and some minor at $6.30

My assessment – definitely wait until (if) price is able to move back towards $6.50 and then re-assess.


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## Gordon7 (20 January 2015)

*SHJ*

Positives 
– A longer term trendline with good spacing between hits. 
-  The last month has seen both a neat and gentle retreat allowing for a clear cut entry point based on the break of the down sloping short term broken trendline.

Negatives 
– Daily average $ value of trades is a bit too low some days for my liking. 

My assessment – a better than average candidate but may reduce trade size due to low daily volumes.


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## Gordon7 (20 January 2015)

*TNE*

I consider the false break in December of the trendline to be almost significant, also taking into account last week’s ‘crawl’ along it reconfirming it as remaining valid in my opinion.

Positives 
– A longer term trendline with good spacing between hits. 
-  The last month has seen a gentle retreat back to the trendline. The entry point is clear, though I would not enter before the possible resistance line at $3.10 is also broken. 

Negatives  
- Significantly, there have been 2 bubble-type impulsive moves in prior months which has lead to increased volatility (which is not a good sign).  
- Related to the previous point, this may be in the process of shaping up into a multi-month (hard to trade) sideways pattern. 

My assessment – Neutral on this one and with me wanting better than averages candidates would pass.


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## Gordon7 (20 January 2015)

*VOC*

Positives 
– Overall strong longer term uptrend with no indication of reversing any time soon.   
-  The last month has seen both a neat and gentle retreat allowing for a clear cut entry point based on the break of the broken looking trendline.

Negatives 
-  The spacing between hits is too small indicating this could be a struggling and hence vulnerable trend. 

My assessment – Whilst the spacing is a negative, the overall trend is strong and should it continue as such this would seem like a good entry point on the break above the broken trendline.


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## Julia (20 January 2015)

Gordon7 said:


> Before I will even place a trade I make an assessment of the current trading environment for the type of stocks I am interested in. These days because of the big divergence between the performance of Mining vs Industrials I base my decision on the XNJ (maybe one or two other indices) rather than the XJO. My focus here is on some Industrial stocks. I also place importance on a technical outlook for the US market.
> 
> My current outlook is Neutral, meaning I want better than average trading candidates.



Thanks, Gordon7.  

Could you expand at all on "an assessment of the current trading environment....." above in stock selection?

Do you take into consideration such as debt levels, yield, increasing year on year performance etc?

Any particular time frame?


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## susie19 (20 January 2015)

thanks for sharing Gordon...interesting to see other people's take on charts. and Grah, no dramas with questions - you gotta start somewhere. just know what you can afford to say goodbye to, in the learning process, and 'happy trading'.


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## pixel (20 January 2015)

grah33 said:


> i'm getting use to all this but would like some clarification .  say i'm interested in buying in some stock that is currently trending upward - eg cba. i draw the trendline , and it's still going up, but HOW DO I KNOW WHEN TO COME IN?  the price may not necessarily go down to the line and bounce off it in the near future.
> 
> say i'm already in and the trendline is broken some time later on.  if i see volume and the price breaking lower than the trendline, is that the time to sell, or should i wait and see - a ranging time may occur which is followed by another up trend.  basically when would i sell and what volume effect would i be looking for.
> 
> ...




Hi Grah;
you started an interesting question and already received a number of valuable answers.

In the interest of simplicity, would it be feasible to sell your holding once the rising trendline is broken?
In the event of a false break, you can always buy back in as soon as it becomes clear that this is indeed a "false break". It may cost you a pip and brokerage, but it reduces the risk of staying in a losing trade. Only you can gauge whether the stock(s) you trade are more likely to keep falling or to recover after a break.

Another consideration, one that I like to apply, is the use of channels:
I draw a trendline that runs parallel to the rising support line at a distance determined by interceding tops. When the price approaches the upper channel, I tend to take at least part profit - again on the basis that it's better to lock in profit at a likely turning High point. 

Nor do I stop at strictly linear channels, but prefer price-following "envelopes"; but that's outside the scope of your question, so let's keep it simple


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## tech/a (20 January 2015)

Gordon Have you had a look at volume at Trend line support/or break.
Have you noticed any helpful hints within patterns from the incorporation of volume and or range?


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## Gordon7 (21 January 2015)

Hi Julia,



Julia said:


> Could you expand at all on "an assessment of the current trading environment....." above in stock selection?




My assessment is based on the chart indices. Quite simply, I use a combination of tools such as the guppy multiple moving averages (with different ma values), an indicator or two, a 125 day exponential ma for the longer term time frame, trendlines etc... I do this mostly on the SPY for the US market, and the XJO, XNJ, XSO and from time to time other indices in our market - whatever I feel may be relevant.

I don't want or need to unnecessarily complicate this. I simply want want to be able to quickly assess if I consider the market backdrop to be bullish, bearish (and degree thereof) or neutral.  



Julia said:


> Do you take into consideration such as debt levels, yield, increasing year on year performance etc?
> 
> Any particular time frame?



My trades will basically last for days to weeks, months if I'm lucky enough to latch onto a good thing (though I have a habit of taking the money and run too often for my own good). 

I have used/studied fundamentals and subscribed to a number of fundamental services over the years. I could not find any meaningful correlation between share price movements and the fundamentals of a stock including broker concensus targets, that would provide an edge _for the sort of time frames_ I usually will hold a trade. In other words, I find no advantage in trading stocks with a good set up provided they have good fundamentals vs a good chart set up ignoring fundamentals. It's the time frame that is key here. 
For instance, I closed a trade on ACR on Monday with a net of 17% gain after holding it for just 3 days based purely on the chart pattern (okay, that is not so common these days). I have no idea of its fundamentals but I doubt they are great.

The stock Yield in itself is an interesting dynamic. A stock with a good yield and franking credits (more likely the larger caps and principally the major banks and Telstra) may have a run up in price in the 45 days (give or take) leading up to their ex-div date. Something to take into consideration but I take this even further. I also take into account any stock that is about to go ex-div with a good yield and may avoid a trade I otherwise would have made. There is a possibility of a sharp sell after going ex-div, well beyond the dividend amount. Perhaps it may not affect the overall trend but may negate an otherwise tradeable chart set up.

Hope the above answers your questions. It just represents my trading approach/philosophy to trading the market.


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## Gordon7 (21 January 2015)

tech/a said:


> Gordon Have you had a look at volume at Trend line support/or break.
> Have you noticed any helpful hints within patterns from the incorporation of volume and or range?




Hi tech/a,

I place little significance on volume. I rely heavily on the price action. I just don't find volume a significant factor at all in trading on the ASX. I know that's a controversial thing to say. I don't deny that for other markets volume may well play a significant role.

You or other traders may have found that edge with the ability to read volume in our market. Sorry to say I haven't.


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## tech/a (21 January 2015)

Gordon7 said:


> Hi tech/a,
> 
> I place little significance on volume. I rely heavily on the price action. I just don't find volume a significant factor at all in trading on the ASX. I know that's a controversial thing to say. I don't deny that for other markets volume may well play a significant role.
> 
> You or other traders may have found that edge with the ability to read volume in our market. Sorry to say I haven't.




Fair enough.
You certainly don't need volume to trade particularly charting as you do.
I think the thing is the ASX. Super liquid instruments you may find a little different.

But even so my experience with the ASX stocks when I traded them was----

I can ride a bike in one gear as well.
Or Play golf with only a 5 iron.

You must be a Guppy fan!


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## Gordon7 (21 January 2015)

tech/a said:


> You must be a Guppy fan!




Not as such. Just believe there is value in the use of mmas in context with my trading style.


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## Julia (21 January 2015)

Gordon7, thank you for comprehensive response - much appreciated.  From that I'm on a similar track but with a longer time frame and looking also for cash flow via yield.  

Hope you'll keep the posting up.


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## grah33 (21 January 2015)

still reflecting on all this... there is a lot to take in


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## burglar (21 January 2015)

grah33 said:


> still reflecting on all this... there is a lot to take in




Take what you learn and Dovetail it with what you know.
Take baby steps.

Don't be in a hurry to do your money.
The market will wait for you.


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## Gordon7 (22 January 2015)

Julia said:


> Gordon7, thank you for comprehensive response - much appreciated.  From that I'm on a similar track but with a longer time frame and looking also for cash flow via yield.
> 
> Hope you'll keep the posting up.



Thanks for your kind words, encouraged me to make a new post under the heading of 'Basing Stocks'. 

I actually feel I am getting a lot by contributing a lot of my thoughts here, as I have so much in my head. By putting them in writing it helps me to crystallize them and maybe even question or have further insight into my own methods. Always looking to evolve and adapt.


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## Newt (22 January 2015)

For those of us in the trend following school I'd suggest reading up on some O'Neil or Minervini.

I've tried for many years to use volume as a guide without success, but in recent months realised just how powerful weekly charts can be for reducing noise.  Volume seems much more useful to me underlining bull or bear moves on weekly.  Nothing wrong with watching daily for big moves,  but a longer timeframe is a great tool.

I'm a firm believer in watching for reductions in volatility as a stock comes back to the supporting trend line.  Some basic fundamental screens to ensure profitability (preferably improving) helps increase the chance of a longer term move versus short term speculative pushes.


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## grah33 (23 January 2015)

pixel said:


> Another consideration, one that I like to apply, is the use of channels:
> I draw a trendline that runs parallel to the rising support line at a distance determined by interceding tops. When the price approaches the upper channel, I tend to take at least part profit - again on the basis that it's better to lock in profit at a likely turning High point.





very helpful posts.  Gordon's approach seems like the best path for a begginer - find several uptrending stocks and trade them.  thx for your examples Gordon.  got me thinking alot.

when trading  price channel patterns , i take it that we are meant to WAIT for the price to go close to the boundaires and that is when we enter, and not in the middle somewhere. correct? it seems that is what i read (to avoid middle areas and wait), as the entry signals  on the edges more strongly predict price direction than when in the middle (could go up /down). but the problem is if the price action doesn't go to the edges for some time. so what then? 

and with the basic uptrend using basic trendline trading strategy, we don't have to aim to buy at the bottom boundary (can enter  above it if that is where it currently is, as price is likely to keep trending higher eventually). however  it is more ideal to get in off a lower limit bounce if you can  (future upward price action more predictable here).

maybe someone who is experienced can help me to reconcile both of these ideas (the righ approach) for each case so i'm clear on it.


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## Boggo (23 January 2015)

Newt said:


> ...
> I've tried for many years to use volume as a guide without success, *but in recent months realised just how powerful weekly charts can be for reducing noise*.  Volume seems much more useful to me underlining bull or bear moves on weekly.  Nothing wrong with watching daily for big moves,  but a longer timeframe is a great tool.




Took a while, was wondering when someone was going to look at the next time frame up to establish the larger degree trend.

Compare the chart below with that of the previously posted daily chart of TNE and you will see what Newt means.

[_Disc - I hold TNE_]

(click to expand)


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## pixel (23 January 2015)

grah33 said:


> very helpful posts.  Gordon's approach seems like the best path for a begginer - find several uptrending stocks and trade them.  thx for your examples Gordon.  got me thinking alot.
> 
> when trading  price channel patterns , i take it that we are meant to WAIT for the price to go close to the boundaires and that is when we enter, and not in the middle somewhere. correct? it seems that is what i read (to avoid middle areas and wait), as the entry signals  on the edges more strongly predict price direction than when in the middle (could go up /down). but the problem is if the price action doesn't go to the edges for some time. so what then?
> 
> ...




Hi Graham,
when I'm trading inside a channel, I do wait what happens at the bottom and top; when in doubt whether my lines are correct - e.g. it "looks like" the reversal falls a tick short, I switch to a more short-term chart, even down to a minute. That still gives me the chance to get in or out as close to the line as possible.

As to "if the price action doesn't go to the edges for some time. so what then? " - many traders maintain a time limit. If, after so many periods (days/weeks - depending on your planning horizon), simply sell and look elsewhere. That is a special case of "Plan B", one that always applies if a trade doesn't do what it's supposed to do. It's the same situation as we find ourselves in when we bought at the channel bottom, expecting a bounce, and that bounce doesn't happen, but selling continues lower. You'd simply take it on the chin and sell, right? Or you took profit at the upper channel, and the price keeps rising. Buy some back. Simple. Like any indicator or method, trendlines and channels are no Laws of Nature, but follow the Laws of Statistics. Applied properly over a number of trades, the odds favour the trader. But some trades will move against the odds - so be nimble and adjust your behaviour to changing reality.


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## pixel (24 January 2015)

a little more on 







> if the price action doesn't go to the edges for some time. so what then?



Assuming I'm not holding the stock in question, neither long nor short. The price continues to rise inside the channel or, in the case of a simple ascending trend, doesn't quite get down to the trendline.
What then? Graham asked.

In a case like that, I consider one of three possible reactions.

My original trendline/s may no longer apply. A tentative re-drawing of the old line/s, or a new line could do just the trick and show me a promising Low at which to buy in, if the stock continues to meet all my other criteria.
Another option, if the price continues to rise, I may decide it doesn't matter if I can't find a Low: Start buying a half position or even smaller, and top up as it continues to move. Google "Darvas Boxes" for some hints how to deal with rising stocks.
Of course, nobody is holding a gun to my head and forces me to do anything with a particular stock. If it doesn't fit my Trading Plan - in this example, the "basic trading using trendlines" - just stay away and look for a stock that does fit.
In order to help decide which option to choose, I look at what I call a stock's DNA. That means I look back over a stock's history to try and detect precedents. Has it traded in channels before? If so, is there a typical or "safe" length of time such a rally may have lasted? Or put Darvas Boxes on and ask the same question. I subscribe to decades of historic data, and I can spread a chart across two or three HD screens. Enough for even the most thorough in-depth study, should I need to. Or I can simply apply the proven old maxim "When in doubt, Stay out!"


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## Gordon7 (25 January 2015)

pixel said:


> [*]Of course, nobody is holding a gun to my head and forces me to do anything with a particular stock. If it doesn't fit my Trading Plan - in this example, the "basic trading using trendlines" - just stay away and look for a stock that does fit




Absolutely agree. No need to play favourites or have any bias toward any particular stocks. Each case on its own merits. 

Here is *HSO* which gave another clear entry signal this week under the method I have outlined below. The first entry was back in November and you would still be in the trade. 




This type of trading need not be unnecessarily overcomplicated. Sometimes we falsely think trading has to be complex if we are going to succeed. I am not under any delusion that even this type of trading has a decent failure rate. The objective is to go with the trend until it is no longer, and it may be that just a handful or less of these types of trades will be big winners in any given year and more than offset the losers and small winners you have along the way.


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## Newt (25 January 2015)

Thanks Gordon.  HSO hadn't come onto my radar.  Will have to check it out in a bit more detail.
And thanks Boggo for earlier comments.

The great thing about ASF is the reinforcement of good habits you're often exposed to.  You can read about techniques (e.g. higher timeframe charts) until the cows come home, but its not until the penny drops on how YOU can use it in your personal form of trading its any use.  In the meantime some mentoring on what others do keeps a continuous parade of options up for grabs.

Tech/A has posted explanations on how tight price action and vol at key points in these trending stocks can hint at loss of supply, which can set up the next upward surge.  Whether using a VSA approach or just watching ADX/OBV/ATR you may well be able to add additional criteria to your entries that slightly ups the % wins.


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## tech/a (25 January 2015)

Gordon.
What would constitute an exit signal for you?


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## Gordon7 (26 January 2015)

tech/a said:


> Gordon.
> What would constitute an exit signal for you?



Hi tech/a,

I'll answer this in the context of my trendline strategy.

Firstly, for a trendline based trade I do not have a target price in mind, nor does it make sense to have one. 

If the stock goes parabolic, or hits the upper channel, or generates and confirms something bearish well above the trendline, then I will use my discretion and likely exit the trade or half the trade. 

In terms of a trailing stop, in recent months I have completely changed my strategy. This came after visually pouring through chart after chart. I used to have an intra-day stop which _only served to suit me psychologically_ in terms of not wanting to give up profits or minimize any losses. This resulted in too many false exits - rather I should think in terms of risk vs reward (which includes the occasional big hit).
It became clear to me that a much better strategy would be to _exit a position if the price closes below my trailing stop_ (in this play the upsloping trendline) _and the next day does not go much below yesterday's close and also recovers above the trailing stop_. 
For example, if my trailing stop is $9.50 and price closes at $9.45, for the next day my initial auto exit would be placed at around $9.43 (a touch below yesterday's close). If price opens at say $9.45 which is the low but towards the end of the day is likely to close at say $9.48 then I will exit the trade. Above $9.50 and I remain in the trade.


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## Gordon7 (26 January 2015)

This is an example of a recent failed trendline based trade on *EGP* had it been taken, with the exit criteria I gave in my previous post. 

I would definitely say that the trendline is no longer valid or a consideration going forward.


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## tech/a (26 January 2015)

Thanks Gordon.

The first trade I presume was exited earlier and before the second trade?

I understand a parabolic exit.

I also understand your exiting if the trend is clearly broken.
The problem is with this type of method is that price will swing away from the mean (That's where the profit is)
Then move back towards the mean---taking a large portion of it back.

A re entry strategy is important I've found. And more importantly as you certainly know and have pointed out---is catching the majority of a move.

Often people miss out on the importance of utilization of funds.They aren't doing you much good as price is reverting to the mean!

Hence my question.
I've just marked up your chart with an alternate suggestion for exits and a suggestion for re entry.


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## Gordon7 (26 January 2015)

Thanks for your reply tech/a, and its always good to hear well considered alternate methods of trading. Something to ponder on....

For the first trade which I didn't elaborate on earlier (since it wasn't a trendline play) I would have set a target price in conjunction with a trailing stop. The target price as shown by the red line was $3.93 which by sheer coincidence coincides with your exit on the second trade. How I determine a target price is something I came up with on my own and perhaps best not elaborated upon here. 
If I had ignored the target my trailing stop exit would have taken me out at $3.74. My trailing stop is based on ATR. 

Let's say I had played this as a trendline bounce. As I stated below my exit would have been taken as price _hits the upper channel (or thereabouts), or generates and confirms something bearish well above the trendline, then I will use my discretion and likely exit the trade or half the trade._ Again, by coincidence, my target price is about the same price as when it hits the upper channel. 




I could be wrong but I believe my method of combining a target price, channel being reached etc with a trailing stop (exit on whichever comes first) somewhat addresses the issue of _price reverting to the mean_ though I never consciously looked at it in this way.

I don't necessarily look to re-enter a trade had I just been stopped out as I consider each potential trade on its own merits. Personally, I would not have taken a trade around the price level you marked as "A" as it doesn't quite fit a pattern I would normally be looking for, and particular patterns play a large part of my trading style.


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## tech/a (26 January 2015)

> and particular patterns play a large part of my trading style.




As they should.
Care to elaborate?


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## Gordon7 (27 January 2015)

tech/a said:


> As they should.
> Care to elaborate?



Ahhhh tech/a, you'll burn me out at this rate  I only ever intended to be a part-time contributor in this forum. 

I think a discussion on patterns belongs under its own heading and a few lines on my part won't do it justice. If you or anyone else want to kick the ball off, I'm only too happy to join in.


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## tech/a (27 January 2015)

Gordon7 said:


> Ahhhh tech/a, you'll burn me out at this rate  I only ever intended to be a part-time contributor in this forum.
> 
> I think a discussion on patterns belongs under its own heading and a few lines on my part won't do it justice. If you or anyone else want to kick the ball off, I'm only too happy to join in.





Sorry mate just churning topical interest.
I'll leave it to others.

When I get a contributor with plenty to add I 
Tend to get involved more.


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## Newt (27 January 2015)

I gather you guys have some history in the Reef forums.  Only saw your introductory post the other day Gordon.
You never know what the amateurs (like moi) will pick up when the pros start exchanging posts.  I'll put my popcorn away now.  Sigh.


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## piggybank (27 January 2015)

Newt said:


> I gather you guys have some history in the Reef forums.




I think it was more likely at Stock Central followed by TNO - Technical Network Organization. Both these sites were started by Austin Hui, who I heard had sold it (TNO) to someone else but it closed not long afterwards.


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## Gordon7 (28 January 2015)

Newt said:


> I gather you guys have some history in the Reef forums.  Only saw your introductory post the other day Gordon.




Guilty ! 



piggybank said:


> I think it was more likely at Stock Central followed by TNO - Technical Network Organization. Both these sites were started by Austin Hui, who I heard had sold it (TNO) to someone else but it closed not long afterwards.




and guilty again...


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