# Trainee prop trading options, prep, credibility in Australia - Outsider Research



## OmegaTrader (30 August 2016)

I am starting this thread to put my outsider research on the prop firms in Australia.My main focus is on trainee options and credibility.

I found that when  looking at this path that information is fragmented in all different places, there is different opinions, self interest and sometimes just bs hyperbole online.

Any insiders or past experiences would be good.

I will hopefully have some of my own experiences to reflect on in the future. 

I will attach information soon and let it speak for its self. I will strive to be impartial and also post some links/access to preparation materials that others have suggested online. 


watch this space

cheers 

Omega


----------



## mjim (31 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> I am starting this thread to put my outsider research on the prop firms in Australia.My main focus is on trainee options and credibility.
> 
> I found that when  looking at this path that information is fragmented in all different places, there is different opinions, self interest and sometimes just bs hyperbole online.
> 
> ...




Hi
I am also interested in same subject
I only heard of Genesis and Propex
and sure there are very high end one/ Bank owned  where you need to be top in maths / be young etc and other
other scale some outfits pretending as prop but the real business model is 100 pays $300-500 TEST fee and hope 99 fail 
Is there a middle ground? where mature people can have a chance with some capital of own
In US for pairs trading I heard about Bright Trading ( but they want series 7 exam + being Non US 100 K deposit as compared to 50 K for local)


----------



## jmg86 (31 August 2016)

Your better off viewing the Prop shop programs as a trial with the promise of funding than training.  Beyond some basic market fundamentals and lessons on how to use cqg and TT your not going to be taught anything earth shattering.  

The real benefit comes from the consistent screen time your forced to go through and thus hopefully develop some view of how markets trade.  If you show some promise, you will go beyond whats available for your average retail trader very quickly.  If not, you at least have 200+ hours of considered screen time to frame your own trading around so you can try again down the track.


----------



## OmegaTrader (31 August 2016)

mjim said:


> Hi
> I am also interested in same subject
> I only heard of Genesis and Propex
> and sure there are very high end one/ Bank owned  where you need to be top in maths / be young etc and other
> ...






jmg86 said:


> Your better off viewing the Prop shop programs as a trial with the promise of funding than training.  Beyond some basic market fundamentals and lessons on how to use cqg and TT your not going to be taught anything earth shattering.
> 
> The real benefit comes from the consistent screen time your forced to go through and thus hopefully develop some view of how markets trade.  If you show some promise, you will go beyond whats available for your average retail trader very quickly.  If not, you at least have 200+ hours of considered screen time to frame your own trading around so you can try again down the track.




mjim thankyou for your interest.

jmg thank you for your opinion

Do you have any experience or information in prop trading that you could share in terms of options credible operators and preparation?

Have you applied for prop programs? etc


----------



## mjim (31 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> mjim thankyou for your interest.
> 
> jmg thank you for your opinion
> 
> ...




In AUS have heard of Genesis and Propex
Other "so called" prop firms ( the dodgy model) market themselves sin AUS but probably will be shut down by ASIC


----------



## OmegaTrader (31 August 2016)

mjim said:


> In AUS have heard of Genesis and Propex
> Other "so called" prop firms ( the dodgy model) market themselves sin AUS but probably will be shut down by ASIC







I will attach the information and let the chips fall where they may.

Make your own opinion.

Be warned I will attach a lot of information :bazooka:


----------



## cynic (31 August 2016)

mjim said:


> In AUS have heard of Genesis and Propex
> Other "so called" prop firms ( the dodgy model) market themselves sin AUS but probably will be shut down by ASIC




You are most certainly correct about dodgy offerings pretending to be prop shops, but I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for ASIC to do anything about it.

I had a lengthy email exchange with one such provider.

I was offered an opportunity to do their proprietary trading course provided, I pay a hefty (5 figure) tuition fee.

I politely asked if they would allow me to do their course and then reimburse themselves from the commissions I earn after commencing proprietary trading with their funds. My, oh my! The ensuing excuses were lamer than a legless millipede!

I then raised my concerns about having witnessed a misrepresentation, by one of their agents, of the risks associated with the trading of leveraged financial instruments. What ensued was an almost week long exchange of email correspondence ending with a reluctant acknowledgment of error accompanied with yet another lame (and also misleading) excuse offered as justification.

The disturbing thing about this firm, is that, years later, they're still operational and making a fortune selling educational material that is misleading to the point of being financially dangerous.


----------



## OmegaTrader (31 August 2016)

I will start with Propex:

below is initial research more to come:



*Cursory information*


This is what their current website says:

Propex Derivatives is a renowned and well-established proprietary trading firm with offices in Sydney, the Gold Coast and Singapore. At Propex, we specialise in providing capital for established traders as well as training and funding junior traders. With a supportive culture and successful track record of growth, today we focus on futures, foreign exchange, equities and commodities. 

I have found that Propex has an online presence.

Their website:  https://propex.com.au/

A seek advertisement https://www.seek.com.au/job/31719546 




View attachment Trainee Proprietary Traders - Sydney Job in Sydney - SEEK.pdf



*List of employees*

Below is a list of employees available freely on linkedin - that work for Propex.

I have found 33

This will give readers an idea of the company, management and also some junior members mention the strategies that they use and the skills that are valued.

View attachment Propex_Linkedin_employees.zip



Interesting to see that some former trainee traders from Aliom (now is Genesis) have moved to Propex.

Note: some work in Singapore, some in NSW e.t.c

Post more tomorrow 

....


----------



## OmegaTrader (31 August 2016)

cynic said:


> You are most certainly correct about dodgy offerings pretending to be prop shops, but I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for ASIC to do anything about it.
> 
> I had a lengthy email exchange with one such provider.
> 
> ...




Thanks Cynic for your honest opinion and experience.

This is why I started this thread, to give realistic advice and information in one thread. So whoever reads this thread will save googling on all different sites.

Can you please detail the company name and details for other members, otherwise if you are reluctant for fear of repercussions

I will research it online if you give me the company name.....

thanks


----------



## cynic (31 August 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Thanks Cynic for your honest opinion and experience.
> 
> This is why I started this thread, to give realistic advice and information in one thread. So whoever reads this thread will save googling on all different sites.
> 
> ...




My preference is not to explicitly disclose the name they currently operate under(they changed it in recent years) for fear of attracting another lawsuit to this forum. I have, of course, retained all of my email correspondence as a precautionary measure. 

Suffice to say that they originated in the UK and their "educational" services are predominantly focussed on the forex market.


----------



## OmegaTrader (1 September 2016)

cynic said:


> My preference is not to explicitly disclose the name they currently operate under(they changed it in recent years) for fear of attracting another lawsuit to this forum. I have, of course, retained all of my email correspondence as a precautionary measure.
> 
> Suffice to say that they originated in the UK and their "educational" services are predominantly focussed on the forex market.




I understand 

I think I know who this is. Won't push it.

It's a shame we can't tell the truth in 2016, almost anonymously on a forum...

hmmm....


Anyway people can tell the $5000 schemes are mainly bs.

I will focus more on the trainee and general research side etc 

Thanks anyway


----------



## banco (1 September 2016)

Tom Dante (former prop trader at Futex) has a series of webinars for sale (proceeds go to charity and there's a link to a third party website where you can actually see they've gone to charity). If you got all 30+ of them you'd probably be up for close to $1000 AUD but he has a swing trading module and a day trading module so you could just focus on what interests you.


----------



## OmegaTrader (1 September 2016)

Website of Propex

https://propex.com.au/

or pdf for offline a bit heavy on the download- sorry



View attachment Propex Website - Copy.zip

View attachment Propex Website - Copy - Copy.zip

View attachment Propex Website - Copy - Copy - Copy.zip



Interesting readiness quiz - multi choice questions.

Nice novelty

I purposely tried to fail it the answer was 

_You got 0 of 14 possible points.
Not bad. Why not try some exercise to stimulate that brain and try again?_

hahaah

will try to download answer pool later

tried for real got 10/14

not that good ... better than nothing

_You got 10 of 14 possible points.
Congratulations! You may have the brainpower needed to be a Propex trader. Why not apply now for our comprehensive traininng program in Sydney, Gold Coast or Singapore?_

tomorrow will post some information about the background of head honchos and company info etc


----------



## CanOz (1 September 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> Website of Propex
> 
> https://propex.com.au/
> 
> ...




Propex helped create one of Asia's most successful bond traders. This guy recently picked up a whopping 7 figures in one day trading the Aussies. He's pretty famous in real trader circles and quite often responsible for moving the market in the bonds.....that could be you one day Omega!


----------



## RowanC (2 September 2016)

In terms of the training both of these firms provide they are based around the work of Guy Bower.

Guy was the head of training at Propex for a number of years and now I believe works with what is now Genesis on their training program.

He's very legit a good guy, and has his own website/training program also.

I haven't used his trading courses site as such but in terms of content it would be very similar to what you would get at a prop for obvious reasons.

http://guybower.com

But just to add to this, I think the value of being at a prop shop is the pure screen time that you get and also the ability to casually chat to other traders. It's about being in a successful environment.


----------



## CanOz (2 September 2016)

RowanC said:


> In terms of the training both of these firms provide they are based around the work of Guy Bower.
> 
> Guy was the head of training at Propex for a number of years and now I believe works with what is now Genesis on their training program.
> 
> ...




I agree totally about Guy. He's a solid dude and he's been good to me, he helped me get an interview with Genesis. I did a few of his courses as well, the site is good value I reckon.


----------



## OmegaTrader (2 September 2016)

CanOz said:


> Propex helped create one of Asia's most successful bond traders. This guy recently picked up a whopping 7 figures in one day trading the Aussies. He's pretty famous in real trader circles and quite often responsible for moving the market in the bonds.....that could be you one day Omega!








Canoz you gotta stop this ahaha






RowanC said:


> In terms of the training both of these firms provide they are based around the work of Guy Bower.
> 
> Guy was the head of training at Propex for a number of years and now I believe works with what is now Genesis on their training program.
> 
> ...






CanOz said:


> I agree totally about Guy. He's a solid dude and he's been good to me, he helped me get an interview with Genesis. I did a few of his courses as well, the site is good value I reckon.




Yeah Rowan that is why I try to apply eventually+ guy bowers resources will come up later in the resources/prep I will attach


----------



## OmegaTrader (2 September 2016)

*History/headhonchos/ Company info*

Max Whitby is the founding owner and managing director according to Propex website


Attached in as article with a bit about him.

View attachment Max_Whitby.pdf


by  nswroa  (NSW racehorse owners)..... 2 Dec 09 14:56 

Interesting a bit.

Do trainees get to ride his horse lol... that sounds really wrong haha

He set up LQUAY - a futures broker---- in 1991 and sold it in 2005 according to the article.


Lets see what Asic says

A cursory search for  Lquay and also for Propex


View attachment LQuay Company Search.zip

View attachment Propex Company Search.zip





Asic says they exist, that helps 


PROPEX DERIVATIVES PTY LTD

is the company name listed on the website


Curious ownership structure and how many times the name has changed

Now is	PROPEX 24 PTY LTD

was:

PROPEX HOLDINGS PTY LTD, PROPEX SECURITIES PTY LTD, A.C.N. 009 199 553 PTY LIMITED, L QUAY FUTURES BROKERS PTY. LIMITED, BRINCKLEY PTY. LTD.

PROPEX SINGAPORE PTY LTD is there too.

Why incorporate in Australia???

I wonder if Propex mortgages or finance are related?? Maybe not.


Tomorrow some aspects of the trainee program, forums opinions  and resources to try and prepare.

Then look at Aliom...


----------



## OmegaTrader (5 September 2016)

*Aspects of trainee program*

Basically the website outline the program

https://propex.com.au/trainee-traders 


First you apply online 

https://propex.com.au/trainee-traders/apply-now

If you get trough then a week of learning followed by
two more weeks of online training

Then two weeks of sim trading.

Then interview

Then

 In-house training continues for another six to eight weeks before you move into a live trading account. 

Then you die      haha

Here is a good summary I found online although it is a bit older but still similar I think

View attachment Trainee Trader FAQ.pdf





*Forum opinions*

These are always mixed



Obviously look on aussiestock forums

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11946
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11988


Other forums I won't post here just google that.

Glassdoor not enough info some ok reviews 






*Resources and preparation*

 is longer than I thought so another post....


----------



## OmegaTrader (6 September 2016)

* Preparation*

I have asked some questions on the forums 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31363

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11988&page=25

Basically the advice is 

Practice mental maths

Have a demo/ micro account CQG and TT trader are mentioned

Practice spread trading mainly on interest rate securities

General job advice, how to interview, interests, interest in trading,  experience/s etc etc 

The other advice is on the Propex website.

Read the guide

Demo again

and look at CME, ASX and SGX resources.

* Resources* This is quite limited sorry 


Guy Bower Website and youtube



spread training  

taken from the mentioned forums

http://rajenkapadia.wix.com/tradingthespread

A book by Stephen Aikin called Trading STIR Futures:....

NO BS day trading  and Jigsaw trading seem to be loosely related to Guy Bower

google haha

that is all I have for the moment.


----------



## OmegaTrader (7 September 2016)

*Cursory information*

Genesis is a merger of Eprop and former Aliom .

eProp Trading was formed as a merger of Epoch PTG and Epoch Academy

Epoch is more of a quant style while Aliom is more discretionary * only my opinion

From the website

Our role is to train, develop and support traders. For established traders we offer state of the art infrastructure and compelling commercial partnerships. For aspiring and novice traders, our brand new, world-class trainee trader program, the Genesis Trading Academy has been designed to select, develop and grow a new generation of traders for Genesis.


Seek advertisements

View attachment 68015


View attachment 68016



*List of employees*

Attached is a list of employees/former employees when searching the name epoch, Aliom and genesis etc etc......

View attachment 68017

View attachment 68018

View attachment 68019

View attachment 68020


----------



## OmegaTrader (7 September 2016)

View attachment Employees Epoch and Genesis (2).zip
View attachment Employees Epoch and Genesis - Copy.zip
View attachment Employees Epoch and Genesis - Copy - Copy.zip
View attachment Employees Epoch and Genesis - Copy - Copy - Copy.zip
View attachment Trainee Proprietary Traders - Sydney Job in Sydney - SEEK.pdf


----------



## OmegaTrader (7 September 2016)

View attachment attachment.pdf


----------



## Gringotts Bank (8 September 2016)

Slightly off topic; this looks a lot easier option than prop trading.

https://www.quora.com/What-does-a-typical-day-at-a-hedge-fund-look-like

A bit of reading stuff on the web and a bit of price monitoring.  Wonder what they get paid for that?  Unreal.


----------



## skc (8 September 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Slightly off topic; this looks a lot easier option than prop trading.
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-does-a-typical-day-at-a-hedge-fund-look-like
> 
> A bit of reading stuff on the web and a bit of price monitoring.  Wonder what they get paid for that?  Unreal.




Thanks for the link... interesting insights into the industry.

Obviously the descriptions don't contain all the details... tasks like updating financial models, looking for interesting ideas, calling industry to triangulate assumptions etc may sound simple, but you can do a good job or a bad job at it.

It's a bit like saying a typical trader's day is nothing more than... turn the computer on, check some overnight prices, analyse some charts, reading some news, get some ideas, click buy/sell and watch the positions. 

Sounds easy!?


----------



## CanOz (8 September 2016)

Interesting article . Just can't kick the shower at night habit though....lol


----------



## Gringotts Bank (8 September 2016)

skc said:


> ...but you can do a good job *or* a bad job at it.




... both for 7 figures, I assume.  

The luxury of having a huge institution behind you.  Although maybe the pressures are commensurate with that.


----------



## OmegaTrader (8 September 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Slightly off topic; this looks a lot easier option than prop trading.
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-does-a-typical-day-at-a-hedge-fund-look-like
> 
> A bit of reading stuff on the web and a bit of price monitoring.  Wonder what they get paid for that?  Unreal.






Gringotts Bank said:


> ... both for 7 figures, I assume.
> 
> The luxury of having a huge institution behind you.  Although maybe the pressures are commensurate with that.




Interesting to see how everyone gives a different answer or says it depends

I have no experience in these matter- just my opinion 

 I would suppose that getting into a hedge fund/ asset management would be more corporate based position, networking etc etc and take a lot of years before you had any decision making opportunities unlike retail trading or prop.  Also much more incentives to play the man rather than the game, that is advertising,relationships with investors+banks etc , high fees relative to alpha achieved....


----------



## OmegaTrader (8 September 2016)

*Genesis website
*

http://www.genesistrading.com.au/

I notice that application is more in depth now including more questions esp I noticed the questions on programming

http://www.genesistrading.com.au/apply-now/

wow this is a lot more than Aliom's form

too much idk??

*Preparation*

I am going out a limb here and say that the preparation would be similar for trainees at Propex and Genesis. 

I mean Guy Bower is now running the Genesis training so...


StarBeta I will do next, traders from Propex now work for Starbeta, curious they all left around the same time.

 However their program doesn't have as much detail.

http://starbeta.com.au/apply/

I think preparing is more than just practising mental maths and really is a topic itself maybe for another forum.


*Forums*

All quote form an  old forum form topstocks sorry ASF 

old Aliom now Genesis


"_1. Aliom Trainee Trader Interview

I have been accepted into the their first training course starts in Oct. I spoke to a friend's brother about Aliom who helped set up CMC markets. He knows the guys who set up Aliom and uses them as for broking services and reckons after Optiver they are the next best trading firm - despite the fact they are not market makers.

The CEO is Justin Richmond and head of trading is Hayden Mackellar - search for Aliom LinkedIn and you can see all the employees that work there. Aliom has been around for about 5 years.

The course is free. You are paid no salary. There are eliminations throughout the training course in weeks 2,4 and 6 make it to the end of week 6 you get a spot trading their capital. As for fees and commission they will be deducted from your trading account along with incurred losses - as soon as you start making a profit naturally this debit balance slowly turns positive (IF you start profiting). It is a partnership with Aliom therefore you have a job today but may not have one next week if you lose a bunch of money.

As for the group interview:

The test they put you through are pretty standard:

45 numerical questions i.e. 45.89 - 56.97

Non-verbal questions i.e. patterns

Brain-teaser type questions i.e. How many times do the clock hands over lap in 24hrs?

You have 15 minutes to do all the sections

The second part of the interview is getting up and giving your educational history, the riskiest thing you have done, trading experience, sporting achievements and 'something unusual about yourself'

They bring you back into the offices for a one on one interview. Some behavioural questions and thats about it - mention that you probably won't earn a profit for about 12 months so you need to be able to live without any income for that period.

That's about it."_


----------



## skc (8 September 2016)

Gringotts Bank said:


> ... both for 7 figures, I assume.
> 
> The luxury of having a huge institution behind you.  Although maybe the pressures are commensurate with that.




7 figures? What currency? Or how many decimal points? I doubt they pay that much for junior analysts. And there will be huge difference between the good and the bad ones. The good ones will have shown enough to run their own fund in 3-4 years, the bad ones won't last through probation.



OmegaTrader said:


> I would suppose that getting into a hedge fund/ asset management would be more corporate based position, networking etc etc and take a lot of years before you had any decision making opportunities unlike retail trading or prop.




Depends... there is a whole range of different size and style of institutions. Some are huge while others might just be a team of half dozen people managing a few hundred $m. 



OmegaTrader said:


> Also much more incentives to play the man rather than the game, that is advertising,relationships with investors+banks etc , high fees relative to alpha achieved....




Yes and no but I wouldn't assume that to be the case. If you are sharp enough you will come through, even if you are the most awkward person in the world.


----------



## OmegaTrader (8 September 2016)

skc said:


> 7 figures? What currency? Or how many decimal points? I doubt they pay that much for junior analysts. And there will be huge difference between the good and the bad ones. The good ones will have shown enough to run their own fund in 3-4 years, the bad ones won't last through probation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





no offence SKC

Any question can be answered with depends and semantics games.

What should I buy for dinner? depends        allergies, preferences, budget......

What stock should I buy? depends         age, risk tolerance,passive or active....



The reason why our species is still alive is because of heuristic rule of thumb not philosophy.


I was generalising....




What I meant is this

*In general* 

1*) There is more incentive for agency issues with funds than prop or retail trading.*

How many funds % actually beat the market?
Will I leave my retail super fund because they are not beating the market/ alpha?
Do most investors in these funds even know what alpha is ?
Will a fund be brought to it's knees like a prop or retail trader?


*In general*

2) *Junior employees at funds would not be involved in making decisions for several years and still be constrained a lot more unlike props and retail.*













*A diversion:*

Therefore if you are not making the decisions you are not a trader. So it is like any corporate workplace.
You get a salary, you deal with more office politics. You are a analyst or a number cruncher for years not a trader.



I would love that position initially, I take anything I can get....

 but by that logic what is the point of even pursing trading I might as well just not even consider what I like and take a job that can make decent money+conditions and do that my whole life because of path dependencies and money.

I don't want to sit on the sidelines forever recommending this and that, researching this and that, dealing with clients this and that, dealing with committees this and that.

I want to make the decisions, of course within reasonable limitations.


*I want to play the game not the man*

That is why I am researching props not corporate jobs.


----------



## OmegaTrader (14 September 2016)

I notice that Star Beta has some traders from Propex.

So I will explore StarBeta.

This is the only other prop now there is 3
 which I have found that  met my criteria, of offering free trainee options and not being a quant based role.

Several traders left Propex in April 2015 to start/join StarBeta.

It seems to be run by Don Di Vincenzo and Mark Zagora.

They both used to work at Propex:

Mark Zagora, Partner at Propex
- Professional trader for 17~ years
- Worked both in Europe and Australia on proprietary trading
- Plays an active role in mentoring and training traders

Don DiVincenzo, Head of Trader Development at Propex
-etc etc

Interesting, a book by mike Bellafiore mentions Mark Zagora, is that the same person idk??? Probably


The greatest reward for starting SMB and then SMBU are the friendships with sharing
traders and educators. Buss Bower, ........ *Mark Zagora*

So they look similar to Propex and Genesis.


Their trainee program is quite limited on information mostly blah blah self promotion

_Trainees are taught to develop their own style within this framework and to develop strategies which they are continually improving and adapting to the changing market conditions.
Since we don’t sell training courses like some other proprietary trading firms our focus is on getting you profitable as quickly as possible._

Essentially you just apply, very simple form.

I would guess that t would bear some similarities to Propex and Genesis.

Good to see competition.

Don't know if it will help me hahahah 

Below is an attachment of some of the employees on linkedin.

View attachment Employee STARBETA.zip


Look at bit more into it later.....

Maybe research some quants and the educator props dare I say pseudo props


----------



## mjim (14 September 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> I notice that Star Beta has some traders from Propex.
> 
> So I will explore StarBeta.
> 
> ...




I was about to post an inquiry on Star Beta... so did you get selected? what do they trade?


----------



## minwa (14 September 2016)

Interesting..never heard of them.

Thanks Omega for the research.


----------



## OmegaTrader (14 September 2016)

mjim said:


> I was about to post an inquiry on Star Beta... so did you get selected? what do they trade?




I am not in Sydney haha

Have not applied to any props yet 


It is a relatively new prop  you can go on their website for some info+ contact details, a bit basic

It does not look as in depth. But on the other hand run by former head trader/partners of Propex.

I would expect more on the same style as Propex *MY OPINION ONLY

Good luck


----------



## hedgedhog (18 December 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> I notice that Star Beta has some traders from Propex.
> 
> So I will explore StarBeta.
> 
> ...




Very weird to see myself in that attachment 

If you have any general questions about Star Beta or prop trading in Sydney in general, happy to answer them in the thread.


----------



## OmegaTrader (18 December 2016)

hedgedhog said:


> Very weird to see myself in that attachment
> 
> If you have any general questions about Star Beta or prop trading in Sydney in general, happy to answer them in the thread.




haha nice

The tentacles of the beast are wide and deep :badsmile:

Every and then it opens a door and allows you to peek inside....

Before crushing you again

:eek3:


1) A realistic overview of the prospects, pay split, working conditions, What you are actually doing, What to watch out for etc etc

2) How to prepare for being a prop trader, skills to practice, resources, etc

3) Who are you and or how are you involved??

4) Can you get me into a prop for 30 silver coins 

5) History of star beta, Propex, aliom how they are all related etc etc

6) Alternatives to Prop

7) anything else I have missed

8) All of your financial passwords and pins 

You should't have offered to answer 

You offered a hand, now I will take an arm 

haha

cheers 

Omega


----------



## CanOz (18 December 2016)

You asking who mark zagora is on a prop trading thread....sort of like asking who Sydney Crosby is on an ice hockey thread....


----------



## OmegaTrader (19 December 2016)

CanOz said:


> You asking who mark zagora is on a prop trading thread....sort of like asking who Sydney Crosby is on an ice hockey thread....




Ahh....

1) I am a beginner and sill learning and so are a lot of other newbies

2) *How do you know that is Mark Zagora* and not some kid in their parents metaphorical basement


 I don't know who Sydney Crossby is along with 99% of all Australians

haha

That is why I am here trying to learn.....


----------



## CanOz (19 December 2016)

I don't know that it's him either....but I have a mate that knows him...I'll find a way to identify him.


----------



## OmegaTrader (19 December 2016)

CanOz said:


> I don't know that it's him either....but I have a mate that knows him...I'll find a way to identify him.




If it a big shot or not

Nevertheless any insights into the prop world from the inside would be helpful.

For newbies and someone who has not taken the leap over the fence yet....


cheers


----------



## skc (19 December 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> 2) *How do you know that is Mark Zagora* and not some kid in their parents metaphorical basement




I don't think the poster "hedgedhog" is Mark Zagora. He said his name is in the attachment you sent earlier... so he/she is one of the 12 linked in profiles you sent.


----------



## OmegaTrader (19 December 2016)

CanOz said:


> You asking who mark zagora is on a prop trading thread....sort of like asking who Sydney Crosby is on an ice hockey thread....






skc said:


> I don't think the poster "hedgedhog" is Mark Zagora. He said his name is in the attachment you sent earlier... so he/she is one of the 12 linked in profiles you sent.




I thought Canoz was implying that the respondent was Mark Zagora

My mistake sorry..

Any information from employees is useful especially for a fence sitter like me

ahha


----------



## CanOz (19 December 2016)

So hedgehog....where were you trading from last month?

Nah, my mistake. When I saw the bold I thought hedgehog was saying that he was zagora....my bad. Gotha quit browsing ASF on my phone.


----------



## hedgedhog (19 December 2016)

CanOz said:


> So hedgehog....where were you trading from last month?




In my little office in Sydney unfortunately


----------



## CanOz (19 December 2016)

hedgedhog said:


> In my little office in Sydney unfortunately




No worries. At least you're living the dream, although I've heard that making a quid trading stirs is tough now without automation, your thoughts?


----------



## hedgedhog (19 December 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> 1) A realistic overview of the prospects, pay split, working conditions, What you are actually doing, What to watch out for etc etc




You get started off on firm strategies which are more forgiving, lower capital required to get started etc. First 1-2 months you're on the simulator alternating days between drills and trading the strategies you will be when you first go live. Each week you'll also be given back-testing work to do, you're basically given massive hints on what to look at for the strategy in order to gain edge. 

Split at pretty much all the firms starts at 50/50, increasing as you hit tiers, progression required to hit tiers is definitely reasonable. 

Work conditions all depends on you, but don't expect to trade the hours you want, strategies may only work during certain hours. 

I trade bond and equity futures as do most of the firms, Propex has an AUS equities division and not sure about Aliom/Genesis (more on that later).



OmegaTrader said:


> 2) How to prepare for being a prop trader, skills to practice, resources, etc




Resources - your typical psychology books are probably most relevant definitely over all the strategy books. You now have a real-life mentor there who can guide you first-hand to what works and what doesn't. Discipline and emotional control is more on you. Have some decent back-testing skills, proficiency in excel is a must for progression and having some sort of coding (Python, C++, Java) that you can work on will be very useful.



OmegaTrader said:


> 3) Who are you and or how are you involved??




One of the more junior traders, I've been here for almost 2 years. Most of the others as you already know, were original traders from Propex who moved over. 



OmegaTrader said:


> 4) Can you get me into a prop for 30 silver coins




Haha, but seriously I've seen your betting thread and it feels like we have many of the same interests. I personally went from trading sport cards to creating a few betting models to prop after I left university. 



OmegaTrader said:


> 5) History of star beta, Propex, aliom how they are all related etc etc




Mark and Don moved from Propex to set up SB, a lot of the senior traders under their wing at Propex moved with them. Aliom and Epoch I believe, combined to set up Genesis. Speaking of Aliom and Epoch, I suggest you take them off any list if you are pursuing prop. They have outdated strategies for newbies and the turnover rate is very high, so my guess is that they make money off your brokerage credits etc. on b/e strategies and then see you on your way. I've also heard Epoch spread losses throughout the office when one of their more senior traders/teams get murdered. That's obviously of the original two firms, I haven't heard anything about this new partnership.

My personal experience with Aliom is being offered a junior trader position, only to be told 2 days before start that the program would not go ahead until 3 months later because of "technical difficulties". Safe so say I believe I dodged a massive bullet and don't know who to thank for it. 



OmegaTrader said:


> 6) Alternatives to Prop




Market making firms (Optiver, ICM, Eclipse) are still trading firms just less freedom and more stability. I wouldn't advise against them at all. Though they are more systematic which I think you mentioned you wanted to avoid. 

Right now, I feel you are at a massive disadvantage if you start your journey trading without being at a reputable prop but there is a whole forum here with successful traders. However, the infrastructure here definitely accelerated my learning and growth in all aspects of trading. 



OmegaTrader said:


> 7) anything else I have missed




Be prepared to work long hours, and not necessarily ones you want to work for at least a year. Be committed, in my brief time I've seen trainees quit/get fired because: 1. hours are too long 2. they didn't want to do backtesting homework on the weekend 

The prospects are definitely there, you are surrounded by a whole office of people who have made it, a few who are still in the process of making it but the money they make daily/monthly/yearly consistently is very real.  



OmegaTrader said:


> 8) All of your financial passwords and pins




markzagora
moneyisking666?!?!?!

Probably missed a lot of things, feel free to follow up.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (19 December 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> I thought Canoz was implying that the respondent was Mark Zagora
> 
> My mistake sorry..
> 
> ...





I'm just going to tell you what I thought of my trainee stint at Propex a few years ago. Guy was the "trainer", who I found personally to be fairly useless as a trainer, you get sat in front of a screen and told to basically figure it out, apart from the obvious "drills" you can find online(cut and reverse etc.) which are pretty standard. But no actual idea generation or work put into helping you get ideas etc. plus he only kinda half-arsed traded himself, which wasn't very encouraging. 

Now, onto Mark, he was considered a God-like figure when I was there, he was by far the biggest trader and had his own special little office. He apparently used to do the training for the new guys before Guy, pretty much all of his trainees were still there killing it, and pretty much all of Guy's weren't. So I'll just let that sit there. Don't get me wrong, Guy was an awesome guy and super friendly, but we just didn't get much out of him as far as helping us develop as trader. Mark was the one you'd hear all the stories about, like making 130k in about 30 seconds one Christmas or NYE. But he only talked to us occasionally as he was trading most of the time. He was real big on spreading, especially the SPI/ES, that was his thing. The entire time I was there he was building a massive position on that spread that seemed to never go in his favour, so who knows if it never did and that's why he stopped and started his own prop shop. 

As far as Don goes, he was an actual trader there when I was there, but stopped because he wasn't profitable any more and decided to become a trainer instead, which didn't turn me on too much, I really would rather learn from someone who is actually trading and killing it, not someone who can no longer do so they teach. 

They were also very strong on making you trade what they want you to trade, maybe because of kick-backs from the commissions they get or some deal they've lined up behind the scenes, so they were very much trying to make us trade our local crap(SPI, Bonds) and encouraging the whole spreading thing. There was maybe 3 guys there that we knew of(may have been more, people weren't very talkative) that were actually doing any good, the rest were so-so, mostly talking about how much easier it was back in 05. 

There was a guy who also worked at Propex, who ran the Singapore and also the newly formed(back then) Gold Coast office(I think), can't remember his name, who came to Sydney once when I was there, he was also strongly into spreading and he gave us an hour speech and it was incredible, but then he had to go back obviously and that was that. I decided to email him and ask him more questions but was told by Guy to "stop hassling" him and ask Guy instead. Tried that. 

Matt was the boss back then, I think his name was Matt. He was great, quite open to ideas and fairly relaxed in letting us have more size and so on, good guy  Dunno if he's still running the show there. I think Max was the older guy that actually owns it, he was like the old grumpy man but he was funny, he's right into horses and horse racing, you'd hear his phone going off in his office because it was this loud horse neighing, sounded hilarious. 

Overall it was a pretty awesome experience, great environment and access to markets etc. but personally I felt the "training" could have been much better, and I kind of turn off when the "trainer" isn't an active trader who's killing it or can't do it anymore so he's training instead. I'm not a fan of that. You also have to be careful about where they get their kickbacks and what they want you to trade, I don't know what happened with Mark, if his massive spread failed and it all turned to **** so he started his own prop shop, which is a more stable income and the model works a treat, or if it all worked out and he made an even bigger killing and started it that way and is still killing it. But I like knowing about how whoever is training you, became to be the trainer, or why and if they're still trading and so on, but all this might not bother you at all. Again, this is just all my opinion of which I'm entitled to. 

If I had my time again there, I'd probably force myself to "pester" the other guys who were doing something right and try and get one of them to mentor me somehow so I wouldn't waste as much time going down dead-end streets etc. 

Overall I did like it and unfortunate that it didn't work out, and part of that was also my fault no doubt, but I did feel it could have been much better in the training side of things, seeing as we are "trainees". Like classes once or twice a week about generating ideas, a weekly review one on one on how your trading is going, where you need work, what it's all about and stop doing that because you're wasting your time etc. etc. stuff like that would have been awesome. 

But obviously all the personnel has changed now so it could all be very different. I'm just sharing my experience in the little group I was in. Hope it all works out for you and good luck!


----------



## hedgedhog (19 December 2016)

CanOz said:


> No worries. At least you're living the dream, although I've heard that making a quid trading stirs is tough now without automation, your thoughts?




The market this year was definitely the toughest in a long time but I feel like it was a product of this low-yield expectant environment that the Fed had created. Post-Trump markets have opened up a lot as the tight market-making scalpers on all the bid-offers got flushed out. I don't trade any of the STIRs per-se so this is more just a comment on the bond market in general.


----------



## minwa (19 December 2016)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> I'm just going to tell you what I thought of my trainee stint at Propex a few years ago. Guy was the "trainer", who I found personally to be fairly useless as a trainer, you get sat in front of a screen and told to basically figure it out, apart from the obvious "drills" you can find online(cut and reverse etc.) which are pretty standard. But no actual idea generation or work put into helping you get ideas etc. plus he only kinda half-arsed traded himself, which wasn't very encouraging.







Dosn't sound like the right person to be a head trainer.


----------



## skc (19 December 2016)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> Guy was the "trainer", who I found personally to be fairly useless as a trainer, you get sat in front of a screen and told to basically figure it out, apart from the obvious "drills" you can find online(cut and reverse etc.) which are pretty standard. But no actual idea generation or work put into helping you get ideas etc. plus he only kinda half-arsed traded himself, which wasn't very encouraging.




I have never had much interaction with Guy so my comments are general in nature... but I think the skills involved in training and trading are very different. So someone who doesn't trade, or didn't "make it" big time trading doesn't automatically make him/her a poor trainer. I can't tell you (without googling) who's the coach for Tiger Woods, Pete Sampras or Mike Tyson... but I bet you none of them were as successful in their respective sports as their students. Yet, there's little doubt that these coaches / trainers played a positive role in these elite athletes' careers.

I do think that "idea generation" is not something you can easily teach and is probably one of the key factor that differentiate successful traders from developing traders. 



ThingyMajiggy said:


> He was real big on spreading, especially the SPI/ES, that was his thing. The entire time I was there he was building a massive position on that spread that seemed to never go in his favour, so who knows if it never did and that's why he stopped and started his own prop shop.




I heard the same story from an unverified source... but I guess for him to be able to start his own shop he must have done alright for some time.



ThingyMajiggy said:


> As far as Don goes, he was an actual trader there when I was there, but stopped because he wasn't profitable any more and decided to become a trainer instead, which didn't turn me on too much, I really would rather learn from someone who is actually trading and killing it, not someone who can no longer do so they teach.




See above... Trading takes a lot of focus and training also demands a lot of time and effort. In Propex equities there's a great trainer now who's also a serious and successful trader. I don't know how he does it... he could be holding 20 positions while looking over half a dozen trainees and at the same time chatting in 3 windows. It's rare to get someone like that. 

In a few years (when my family life gets less busy) I would consider possibly getting into some trainer role. Although I am not 100% sure whether I would be any good or not... and I know that if training gets in the way of my trading, I would most certainly prioritise my own trades.



ThingyMajiggy said:


> Matt was the boss back then, I think his name was Matt. He was great, quite open to ideas and fairly relaxed in letting us have more size and so on, good guy  Dunno if he's still running the show there. I think Max was the older guy that actually owns it, he was like the old grumpy man but he was funny, he's right into horses and horse racing, you'd hear his phone going off in his office because it was this loud horse neighing, sounded hilarious.




Same crew still there.



ThingyMajiggy said:


> Overall I did like it and unfortunate that it didn't work out, and part of that was also my fault no doubt, but I did feel it could have been much better in the training side of things, seeing as we are "trainees". Like classes once or twice a week about generating ideas, a weekly review one on one on how your trading is going, where you need work, what it's all about and stop doing that because you're wasting your time etc. etc. stuff like that would have been awesome.




These are solid suggestions.


----------



## minwa (19 December 2016)

skc said:


> So someone who doesn't trade, or didn't "make it" big time trading doesn't automatically make him/her a poor trainer. I can't tell you (without googling) who's the coach for Tiger Woods, Pete Sampras or Mike Tyson... but I bet you none of them were as successful in their respective sports as their students. Yet, there's little doubt that these coaches / trainers played a positive role in these elite athletes' careers.




But the difference there is those people are at the top level in terms of technical skill who are looking more for the psychological training. I'm sure their first coach who taught them how to swing was someone who has "done it". 

Trainees are expected to know nothing going in..I could see him being a second coach who adds extra dimensions but main coach ? Sorry, don't like those odds..


----------



## CanOz (19 December 2016)

minwa said:


> But the difference there is those people are at the top level in terms of technical skill who are looking more for the psychological training. I'm sure their first coach who taught them how to swing was someone who has "done it".
> 
> Trainees are expected to know nothing going in..I could see him being a second coach who adds extra dimensions but main coach ? Sorry, don't like those odds..




Bottom line here too is that the Australian firms, IMO, don't have a great reputation of being firms that grow traders...

Grow bottom lines...maybe

That might be changing but that's the word I've got.


----------



## minwa (20 December 2016)

CanOz said:


> Bottom line here too is that the Australian firms, IMO, don't have a great reputation of being firms that grow traders...
> 
> Grow bottom lines...maybe
> 
> That might be changing but that's the word I've got.




True, leads back to Sam's point of being forced to trade a small allowance of "local crap" because of rebates.


----------



## OmegaTrader (20 December 2016)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> I'm just going to tell you what I thought of my trainee stint at Propex a few years ago. Guy was the "trainer", who I found personally to be fairly useless as a trainer, you get sat in front of a screen and told to basically figure it out, apart from the obvious "drills" you can find online(cut and reverse etc.) which are pretty standard. But no actual idea generation or work put into helping you get ideas etc. plus he only kinda half-arsed traded himself, which wasn't very encouraging.






minwa said:


> View attachment 69138
> 
> 
> Dosn't sound like the right person to be a head trainer.






minwa said:


> But the difference there is those people are at the top level in terms of technical skill who are looking more for the psychological training. I'm sure their first coach who taught them how to swing was someone who has "done it".
> 
> Trainees are expected to know nothing going in..I could see him being a second coach who adds extra dimensions but main coach ? Sorry, don't like those odds..




To start off:

Wow the brutality of it ...

Although I don't expect anything less.

Better to take the red pill then to live in blissful ignorance.. I think... I Hope....




hedgedhog said:


> You get started off on firm strategies which are more forgiving, lower capital required to get started etc. First 1-2 months you're on the simulator alternating days between drills and trading the strategies you will be when you first go live. Each week you'll also be given back-testing work to do, you're basically given massive hints on what to look at for the strategy in order to gain edge.
> 
> Split at pretty much all the firms starts at 50/50, increasing as you hit tiers, progression required to hit tiers is definitely reasonable.
> 
> ...




 I feel like a person who has been eating only bread and water and has been  been given a meal and remembers what chicken tastes like.

very nice!

Thanks everyone and (especially mark zagora alias trainee haha)for your honest opinions and being so open to help.


1) What is the application process for applying at StarBeta, What are they looking for, How far ahead to they expect a trainee to be etc ... 

Knowledge of financial markets, experience, what are the xfactors etc

2) More information on the firms strategies and strategies that you use
If you can.

Are you trading mainly spreads as well ...  directional.... your own ideas etc

And if you want to trading capital

3) Drilling down into preparation and applying for Star Beta or any prop..

Any more information on this is always welcome :bowdown:

A) Have some decent back testing skills
B)Proficiency in excel
C)Coding is useful
D) Proof of Discipline and emotional control


*I don't how you prepare for this..

E) Work hard, odd hours and weekend homework*





hedgedhog said:


> Haha, but seriously I've seen your betting thread and it feels like we have many of the same interests. I personally went from trading sport cards to creating a few betting models to prop after I left university.




Haha

I lost 5/7 bets on NFL today and they were almost all favourites

Plus I have lost 4/5 of the last NBA picks

Please just be variance, oh man it hurts my pride

The irony if I lost the challenge

Anyway that is the brakes...

Thanks again

Omega


----------



## hedgedhog (20 December 2016)

minwa said:


> True, leads back to Sam's point of being forced to trade a small allowance of "local crap" because of rebates.




Probably a biased view but the strategies which use this so-called "local crap" are very much profitable if you do the back-testing so while they may also be introductory strategies with rebates in mind, this is definitely not the crux.


----------



## hedgedhog (20 December 2016)

OmegaTrader said:


> 1) What is the application process for applying at StarBeta, What are they looking for, How far ahead to they expect a trainee to be etc ...
> 
> Knowledge of financial markets, experience, what are the xfactors etc




Application --> interview --> simulation --> live

Until now, there is no expectation on trainees to have any experience trading but an entrepreneurial mind is appreciated. Obviously I have no idea if this selection process will change in the future.  



OmegaTrader said:


> 2) More information on the firms strategies and strategies that you use
> If you can.
> 
> Are you trading mainly spreads as well ...  directional.... your own ideas etc
> ...




Traditionally a firm built on spreading strategies but I have seen quants come in recently and get capital for their own strategies - this is obviously contingent on them already being experienced/profitable at other prop firms or in their own trading. 

Personally got started off in bond spreads, have a few outright strategies but they are in no way my bread-and-butter. In the past few months I have gone live on a couple of equity futures spreads and have a couple more that I want to start running by the end of January. I would say that unless you have existing outright strategies, Star Beta won't be the best firm for you if you are hell-bent on only trading outrights. 

With mentoring you will get to talk a lot more with Mark Zagora than it seems like you were able to in the past and the majority of your mentoring will be with him by the end of your first year.  



OmegaTrader said:


> 3) Drilling down into preparation and applying for Star Beta or any prop..
> 
> Any more information on this is always welcome :bowdown:
> 
> ...




I believe these skills will get you past the screening stage and most importantly help you drastically once you do get started. Back-testing is key as most of the guys here can probably agree on. What is the point of being given ideas if you cannot test and confirm them yourself - you could give anyone the best strategy in the world but as soon as he goes through a period of drawdown he will start second-guessing it. 

Excel - for general backtesting; with spreads it is all about how far something moves, is it directional or mean reverting, what can you expect on average, where are the problem days, are there problem times in a normal day you should avoid taking a position. All this can be done in excel with the data that you get. Similar concepts apply to outright strategies. What you don't want, is to need to test something, work out all your ideas and then having to learn how to test it before you can test it. Every day you spend in the market live with less than 100% conviction in your strategy is a day wasted. 

Being about to use something like Python is the next step when you want to analyse something like tick-data that is more intensive and complex. But it can also make everything else just so much faster than if you were using Excel and being more flexible with your parameters. Personally though I feel the finance industry is in general more wanting of these skills and if I could do uni all over again I'd do something like Commerce/Computer Science.

D is hard if you're not already involved with the market in some way. I'd say if you are consistently recording your sport bets, not over-betting after a drawdown, you're somewhat on your way there. It's more just something you need to be aware of before you begin and then put into practice after you start. I've walked into Mark's office before and he's told me to wait up as he jots something down in his trade journal. Emotional control is something you just have to work on, you can't REALLY prepare but I guess a book like Trading in the Zone will help somewhat.

E is more just about commitment. You can't really teach or learn commitment, trading is either what you really want to do or you're just here because you're thinking about the lifestyle that being successful can offer you but you haven't really thought about all the long hours people put in before they get to that successful stage. If you're not there to put in the hours, you will lag behind others on the simulator, you will start going live a bit later, you won't know your market as well as others leading to poorer performance ---> slower size progression ---> ultimately not making enough that you can justify being there or the firm can justify having you around or you are just envious of others who you started with but they are now at least a few months ahead of where you are. 

Again, just typed this up, feel free to want clarification on points.


----------



## OmegaTrader (20 December 2016)

hedgedhog said:


> Application --> interview --> simulation --> live
> 
> Until now, there is no expectation on trainees to have any experience trading but an entrepreneurial mind is appreciated. Obviously I have no idea if this selection process will change in the future.
> 
> ...





I don't know what to say now the chicken tastes like veal haha 

Thanks 



hedgedhog said:


> ...having to learn how to test it before you can test it.





well worded haha

Obviously this is a great skill to have...

Of course there is a plethora of resources online about this.







hedgedhog said:


> Being about to use something like Python is the next step...





I am not a natural Quant and in the beginning tried to avoid this  alot.
My usage of excel is best described as messy...
But getting there.

My attempts at coding 

It is a learning process...

Ah

This is the inexplicable truth like trying to avoid taxes,

It will get you in the end

It is just the reality of the modern financial paradigm..



hedgedhog said:


> I've walked into Mark's office before and he's told me to wait up as he jots something down in his trade journal






+1 need to start an *actual* trade journal




hedgedhog said:


> I would say that unless you have existing outright strategies, Star Beta won't be the best firm for you if you are hell-bent on only trading outrights.




I think in the mainstream spreading is not that common and so takes some adjustment.

You hardly ever hear anyone raving about spreading...

Suggestions on brokers, acess etc to get retail exposure to spread trade..



hedgedhog said:


> Again, just typed this up, feel free to want clarification on points.






At the end of the day I want to have some things in place before trying at prop.


Practice back testing
Improve in Excel and Learn coding
Actual trading journal
Learn/ practice about spreading
Practice idea generation
Learn/improve knowledge of derivatives esp Quant side



Failing this well.....
Retail route 

then death




*I could go on asking more specifics but I think part of being entrepreneurial is to go out and just do it.*

That is something I am working on as well.

I won't push my luck with too much pestering...

You can add any other points/issues/tips if you like.


Thanks again

Omega


----------



## minwa (20 December 2016)

hedgedhog said:


> Probably a biased view but the strategies which use this so-called "local crap" are very much profitable if you do the back-testing so while they may also be introductory strategies with rebates in mind, this is definitely not the crux.




I got the impression that it was when I talked to Aliom (back when it was standalone). They liked my results at first, until I told them I traded on the CME and they lost all interest  . Anyway glad now considering the problems you have said about them

Thanks for your posts,  they're great.


----------



## hedgedhog (20 December 2016)

minwa said:


> I got the impression that it was when I talked to Aliom (back when it was standalone). They liked my results at first, until I told them I traded on the CME and they lost all interest  . Anyway glad now considering the problems you have said about them
> 
> Thanks for your posts,  they're great.




I didn't want to be explicit, in case someone here worked there,  but there is a clear difference between Aliom/Epoch/Genesis and Star Beta/Propex. As you have figured out the first group are very much focused on these rebates, they have a very high churn rate and low-edge strategies. Aliom even had a brokerage office on their trade floor


----------



## undercurrent (11 January 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> I am starting this thread to put my outsider research on the prop firms in Australia.My main focus is on trainee options and credibility.
> 
> I found that when  looking at this path that information is fragmented in all different places, there is different opinions, self interest and sometimes just bs hyperbole online.
> 
> ...




Before you even start researching Prop firms, understand your motivations for going the Prop Trading route.
Many folks have vague assumptions about Prop Trading.
They end up being disappointed when they face the reality after few months in the firm.


----------



## OmegaTrader (11 January 2017)

undercurrent said:


> Before you even start researching Prop firms, understand your motivations for going the Prop Trading route.
> Many folks have vague assumptions about Prop Trading.
> They end up being disappointed when they face the reality after few months in the firm.




Could you please elaborate on you comments....
Do you work for a prop ? etc


----------



## undercurrent (12 January 2017)

My background is irrelevant. This is the internet after all...  
So lets come to the point...
Why do you 'really' want to get into a prop shop and not trade your own trading account ?


----------



## Mr J (12 January 2017)

hedgedhog said:


> I didn't want to be explicit, in case someone here worked there,  but there is a clear difference between Aliom/Epoch/Genesis and Star Beta/Propex. As you have figured out the first group are *very much focused on these rebates, they have a very high churn rate and low-edge strategies.* Aliom even had a brokerage office on their trade floor




That difference is debatable.


----------



## CanOz (12 January 2017)

Mr.j is back....wow....everyone coming back to check out the new ASF? Welcome back MrJ


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 January 2017)

undercurrent said:


> My background is irrelevant. This is the internet after all...
> So lets come to the point...
> Why do you 'really' want to get into a prop shop and not trade your own trading account ?




I think this is already implied in previous posts,

However explicitly

1) To expedite the learning curve ( I am still an amateur/learning)
2) To  share in monetary capital  ( I have limited capital)
3) To share in externalities          (ideas and resources etc)     
4) The perception of social legitimacy     (Pops up in the back of the mind every now and then )       

In exchange for time, energy effort and a pound of flesh...

Now tell me who are you who who ...

haha


----------



## biggestBSD (13 January 2017)

Hi everyone, I'm new here but I've traded prop for about 5 years at several firms (still currently trade) and would like to give you my thoughts and opinions:

- ALL firms (except Phoenix) conduct trainee programs due to the availability of the ASX new trader rebate. It is in their interest to recruit new trainees every 3 months or so as the firm gets refunded the entire exchange fee ($0.99) for the first 20000 lots executed by the new trader within a year. Most firms will stop trainees out at -10k in their accounts so at worst the firm is break even or small up after the rebate. I have seen spreadsheets where a particular firm projected that trainees will not make any money and instead relied on the recruitment of 7-10 people every 3 months for the 20k worth of rebate. You do the math.

- The failure rate of these trainee programs is EXTREMELY high (>90%). Now you may think, oh but I'm different I'll definitely make it as I work harder than everyone else, I've got a particular edge etc etc. *Wrong.* The odds are not in your favour, especially given the fact that some of the trainers at particular firms are completely incompetent and offer no real winning strategies whatsoever. Most people quit after 2 years or so as they cannot make any money, just check out Linkedin profiles.

- If you do manage to make it past the trainee stage, firms then make money off brokerage and volume rebate.

- I will add that at Star Beta that there is more focus on profit split rather than volume as described above, and they are definitely more loose with their trading parameters (can confirm, am punter). For example, you will hear stories that so and so made 200k in a day - what you won't hear is that they risked 400k to do it and the large downsides that were incurred when the market didn't come back. Nor will you hear about when no one at any firm has made any money for months (which was the case for 2016, the toughest on record).

- Trading is not glamorous, it is a hard, tiresome slog where you are competing against people that are smarter than you, faster than you and have more information than you. If you can't afford to lose, *do not trade*. If you need to pay rent, have a mortgage, bills etc, *do not trade*. If you need to make money, *do not trade*. The likelihood of succeeding as a new trader, especially in the current market conditions is infinitely small. The fact is that these training programs are designed to sell you a dream that you'll get rich, when in all likelihood you'll get chewed up and spat out by the market.


----------



## Mr J (13 January 2017)

Lol brutal.



CanOz said:


> Welcome back MrJ




Thanks mate, been a while!


----------



## OmegaTrader (13 January 2017)

biggestBSD said:


> Hi everyone, I'm new here but I've traded prop for about 5 years at several firms (still currently trade) and would like to give you my thoughts and opinions:
> 
> - ALL firms (except Phoenix) conduct trainee programs due to the availability of the ASX new trader rebate. It is in their interest to recruit new trainees every 3 months or so as the firm gets refunded the entire exchange fee ($0.99) for the first 20000 lots executed by the new trader within a year. Most firms will stop trainees out at -10k in their accounts so at worst the firm is break even or small up after the rebate. I have seen spreadsheets where a particular firm projected that trainees will not make any money and instead relied on the recruitment of 7-10 people every 3 months for the 20k worth of rebate. You do the math.
> 
> ...




Thank you very much for your feedback.
So would you say that it is a waste of time to enter these programs?
Given the opinions you have expressed


----------



## biggestBSD (13 January 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Thank you very much for your feedback.
> So would you say that it is a waste of time to enter these programs?
> Given the opinions you have expressed




If you go in wanting to learn new things about the market and approach it from an education perspective, then give it a go.

But given current market conditions I find it hard to see how new traders would make money given that experienced folk are struggling.

It's probably already been recommended but check out NO BS Day Trading, he makes some excellent points in his FAQ on his website

http://www.nobsdaytrading.com/free-info/for-inexperienced-traders/


----------



## OmegaTrader (13 January 2017)

biggestBSD said:


> If you go in wanting to learn new things about the market and approach it from an education perspective, then give it a go.
> 
> But given current market conditions I find it hard to see how new traders would make money given that experienced folk are struggling.




So it is learning in exchange for earning the firm rebates.
Would that be right?


----------



## skc (13 January 2017)

biggestBSD said:


> Hi everyone, I'm new here but I've traded prop for about 5 years at several firms (still currently trade) and would like to give you my thoughts and opinions:




Awesome handle!!



biggestBSD said:


> - ALL firms (except Phoenix) conduct trainee programs due to the availability of the ASX new trader rebate.




Interesting... never heard of this before.



biggestBSD said:


> - I will add that at Star Beta that there is more focus on profit split rather than volume as described above, and they are definitely more loose with their trading parameters (can confirm, am punter).




I can vouch that Propex's equity training is nothing like what you've described. At there they have 
- A trainer who genuinely cares and is one of the best traders around.
- A long term commitment to support the trainees - some has been around 12-18 months.
- A higher success rate - a cohort of 5 traders who started 3 years ago, 4 of them are still around. While I don't know their individual P&L, I have little doubt they have at a minimum achieved survivability and competency.



biggestBSD said:


> The fact is that these training programs are designed to sell you a dream that you'll get rich, when in all likelihood you'll get chewed up and spat out by the market.




Reality bites.


----------



## biggestBSD (13 January 2017)

skc said:


> I can vouch that Propex's equity training is nothing like what you've described. At there they have
> - A trainer who genuinely cares and is one of the best traders around.
> - A long term commitment to support the trainees - some has been around 12-18 months.
> - A higher success rate - a cohort of 5 traders who started 3 years ago, 4 of them are still around. While I don't know their individual P&L, I have little doubt they have at a minimum achieved survivability and competency.




That is fantastic to hear!!!!! It is a stark comparison to my experience with (and anecdotes of) various futures training programs  Maybe you could try that one OmegaTrader.

Skc, you may not have heard of it as (I'm assuming) you're in equities and it's for ASX 24 contracts, so I've included the link for the ASX brochure

https://asxonline.com/content/dam/asxonline/public/documents/schedule-of-fees/asx_047354.pdf


----------



## Mr J (13 January 2017)

Omega, the best education is a ton of screen time. That said, starting at a prop firm gives some major learning advantages. One is you'll start trading from ladders (which most retail traders don't), and this is pretty eye opening at first. Another being surrounded by like-minded individuals. It gives other significant advantages that Trembling Hand pointed out years ago (far more size than you can get funding yourself, no drawdown to you personal account etc).

Can't speak of any of the current training programs.


----------



## OmegaTrader (13 January 2017)

biggestBSD said:


> That is fantastic to hear!!!!! It is a stark comparison to my experience with (and anecdotes of) various futures training programs  Maybe you could try that one OmegaTrader.
> 
> Skc, you may not have heard of it as (I'm assuming) you're in equities and it's for ASX 24 contracts, so I've included the link for the ASX brochure
> 
> https://asxonline.com/content/dam/asxonline/public/documents/schedule-of-fees/asx_047354.pdf



Maybe I should set up my own firm and trade rebates??? 
hahah




Also what is 







> experienced folk are struggling.




What is struggling in terms of number for experienced folk? etc


----------



## minwa (13 January 2017)

biggestBSD said:


> Nor will you hear about when no one at any firm has made any money for months (which was the case for 2016, the toughest on record).
> 
> The likelihood of succeeding as a new trader, especially in the current market conditions is infinitely small.




Nice post !

Is it because everyone trades spreads and that's been tough ?


----------



## biggestBSD (13 January 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Maybe I should set up my own firm and trade rebates???
> hahah
> 
> 
> ...




hahaha why not if you've got a spare few mil for margin 

i know a few guys quit cos it just got to the point where they weren't making anything at all, but don't know any specific numbers like how much they were making beforehand sorry.


----------



## OmegaTrader (13 January 2017)

biggestBSD said:


> hahaha why not if you've got a spare few mil for margin
> 
> i know a few guys quit cos it just got to the point where they weren't making anything at all, but don't know any specific numbers like how much they were making beforehand sorry.




plus application fees+ setup costs+ stress costs.

but it is guaranteed.....

ahaha

Probably get better return in other places though

thanks for all of the info and your help.

I think Skc has a deal with  propex in qld???

The equities one, not the bond one IDK

just speculating..


----------



## biggestBSD (13 January 2017)

minwa said:


> Nice post !
> 
> Is it because everyone trades spreads and that's been tough ?




I think hedgedhog said it perfectly earlier in the thread when he mentioned the low interest rate environment, it meant the market locked up massively, less opportunities etc etc


----------



## minwa (13 January 2017)

biggestBSD said:


> I think hedgedhog said it perfectly earlier in the thread when he mentioned the low interest rate environment, it meant the market locked up massively, less opportunities etc etc




That's sad how prop is mostly structured. Directional traders would've/should've had a great year.


----------



## biggestBSD (13 January 2017)

minwa said:


> Directional traders would've/should've had a great year.




Assuming they picked the right direction


----------



## Mr J (13 January 2017)

minwa said:


> That's sad how prop is mostly structured. Directional traders would've/should've had a great year.




Bit hard if the markets are 'locked up massively', as has been reported above.


----------



## skc (13 January 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> I think Skc has a deal with  propex in qld???




I am not sure what you mean by "have a deal" with Propex in QLD.

I trade equities with Propex and I interact (via chat mostly) with the other traders and trainees daily. So I see who's around, whether someone's been making sound calls etc. 
But I am not directly involved with the training beyond that.


----------



## OmegaTrader (13 January 2017)

skc said:


> I am not sure what you mean by "have a deal" with Propex in QLD.
> 
> I trade equities with Propex and I interact (via chat mostly) with the other traders and trainees daily. So I see who's around, whether someone's been making sound calls etc.
> But I am not directly involved with the training beyond that.




lol speculation

Qld does equities
you do equities
you trade with propex.

assume QLd
or involvement with qld equity branch 

So you work for propex in a defacto way. etc


----------



## undercurrent (13 January 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> 1) To expedite the learning curve ( I am still an amateur/learning)




This is a valid reason but expedition of learning curve is a function of hours (aka screen time). It can be done at home without paying desk fees/expensive platform fees/profit splits etc. by putting the same number of hours as most folks do @ Prop firms.
So what is stopping you???



> 2) To  share in monetary capital  ( I have limited capital)




You will be trading the smallest possible size for 6 months to a year in a Prop firm till you show any consistency in profits. This is where 90% of the folks quit or are asked to quit.

As someone pointed out earlier, why do you think this won't be you?



> 3) To share in externalities          (ideas and resources etc)




You are basically competing with everyone trading the same products and similar strategy.
Why do you think someone will share their hard earned lunch with you?
On the contrary, many find that it can get hostile at times, especially early on.
You will start to truly exchange ideas when you are already doing well (become the 10% who made it) and have something offer to the senior folks.



> 4) The perception of social legitimacy     (Pops up in the back of the mind every now and then )




A 'Trader' by its very definition is a social rebel who has kicked the security of a paycheck.
... doesn't give a damn about 'social legitimacy'
... doesn't have to prove it to anyone.
... don't care what others think about what they wear, eat, drive

A true story about an indie trader who made > $25 million last year was asked to pick a place for a dinner meetup. That trader promptly choose a regular $20 kinda place...



> Now tell me who are you who who ...




Just another trader who wants to help...


----------



## OmegaTrader (14 January 2017)

undercurrent said:


> This is a valid reason but expedition of learning curve is a function of hours (aka screen time). It can be done at home without paying desk fees/expensive platform fees/profit splits etc. by putting the same number of hours as most folks do @ Prop firms.
> So what is stopping you???
> 
> 
> ...





Good depth of posting..

Thank you for that insight.

You should see what I wear and look

 hahaha

Actually probably not


So what does one do now?


Learn to fish..


----------



## undercurrent (14 January 2017)

> You should see what I wear and look




So you already have your 'signature' style in place 
Well done! 



OmegaTrader said:


> So what does one do now?
> 
> Learn to fish..




Don't get me wrong. 

For all you know, you can be the next 'super star' prop trader.

I just wanted to aid in bringing clarity and objectivity to your decision making since there is so much confusion and hype about the Prop trading industry.

There are good and legit Prop Trading firms out there...others have already shared their experience.

The more important thing is to find what 'fits' you since what is good for one trader may not be good for the other.

E.g. 

A college grad with almost zero knowledge of trading lands a gig at a prop firm and is passionate about trading (or so they would like to believe) probably can get accelerated learning about trading even if they last only 6 months. But they need to be realistic that their chances of making it are very slim and are still willing to spend their time and effort for no $$$$. 

or 

An Experienced Trader who needs reliable and cutting-edge infrastructure with ultra-low commissions for their strategy to be viable can probably look for a Prop Firm which caters to such traders.

Bottom line is....

Know what you 'really' need to take your trading to the next level and whether that means going the Prop Shop route.

Then work your way from there... 

Good luck!


----------



## skyQuake (14 January 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Also what is
> 
> What is struggling in terms of number for experienced folk? etc




Making less than last year 

Desk fees/data/software really adds up. $50-100k a year is average for equities, less for futs. 
Worst part is you work out the sums at the end of the year and the split goes:

broker>prop split>desk fee>software>ato>better half>you


----------



## skc (15 January 2017)

skyQuake said:


> Making less than last year
> 
> Desk fees/data/software really adds up. $50-100k a year is average for equities, less for futs.
> Worst part is you work out the sums at the end of the year and the split goes:
> ...




Just to finish the chain.


----------



## Mr J (16 January 2017)

skyQuake said:


> broker>prop split>desk fee>software>ato>better half>you




Trade futures, stay single, and move to Sgp/HK


----------



## jjopd2001 (8 February 2017)

Hi All, just a quick question if I may.
If one wants to join a prop firm like Starbeta or Genesis, as a experienced trader, what would be the typical resume look like? say, 3~6 month of profitable P&L, win ratio over XX, etc..


----------



## Trembling Hand (8 February 2017)

jjopd2001 said:


> Hi All, just a quick question if I may.
> If one wants to join a prop firm like Starbeta or Genesis, as a experienced trader, what would be the typical resume look like? say, 3~6 month of profitable P&L, win ratio over XX, etc..



What are you trading and how first? It has to fit with the firm. No point taking a approach to them that they are not set up for or comfortable with.

Metrics as far as win rate, % return etc mean little to prop firms. They are mostly interested in how much you are going to draw down each day for the size they give you.


----------



## Wysiwyg (8 February 2017)

Makes me wonder why they look for discretionary traders. Maybe profitable trades aren't repeatable for automation.


----------



## Trembling Hand (8 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Makes me wonder why they look for discretionary traders. Maybe profitable trades aren't repeatable for automation.



Huh? What do you mean?


----------



## Wysiwyg (9 February 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> Huh? What do you mean?



Well I think if any system is able to be automated it would have been done by these companies. Why pay for a human when a machine could (supposedly) do better. Better especially compared to the trader newbies with little experience.


----------



## Quant (9 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Well I think if any system is able to be automated it would have been done by these companies. Why pay for a human when a machine could (supposedly) do better. Better especially compared to the trader newbies with little experience.



i think consistent discretionary traders are systematic by nature which opens it up to algo trading but this intuitive thinking algo is beyond the average trader/ prop shops paygrade  , investment banks sure  ...


----------



## Trembling Hand (9 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Well I think if any system is able to be automated it would have been done by these companies. Why pay for a human when a machine could (supposedly) do better. Better especially compared to the trader newbies with little experience.



Couple of things

1. They are low risk. 20 newbies have the combined $ risk of 1 established trader. So if all the newbies blow out and 1 established trader has a good month then no money lost. Cheap way to find the diamond in the rough. (in effect 10 blow out, 7 are BE, 2 show promise and one is a winner which when you add in exchange rebates that is a win overall)

2 Its more likely to spread your edge. You have 30 good traders trading the same product. All punting away doing something different. How many systems can you run intraday on the same product at the same time? Sooner or later if you have only a few systems you are the market with the size we are talking. And the automation of the one guy jobbing away on a 10 - 20 lot doesn't work on a 200 to 500 lot!!

3. Funnily the large clearers that prop uses will not allow automation onto their systems with the margin model prop uses!! Up to at least last year anyway. Crazy hey??!!

4. With a system the risk model (position sizing, when its on or off etc) is designed before its started. Not so with prop. You can really size up by many times when the opportunity presents itself. Its possible to job away month in month out then get a runner and just add and add and add...... make many months worth in 1 trade because you are X bigger. In the long run that leads to some serious out performance.

5. And its what they do. Don't underestimate tradition.


----------



## Wysiwyg (9 February 2017)

Mate that is the most well thought out reply you have ever given me. A post "like" has been duly awarded. Thank you.


----------



## Trembling Hand (9 February 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Mate that is the most well thought out reply you have ever given me. A post "like" has been duly awarded. Thank you.



We can all surprise from time to time I guess..


----------



## Mr J (20 February 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> You have 30 good traders trading the same product. All punting away doing something different. How many systems can you run intraday on the same product at the same time?




Those 30 traders trading the same product aren't all doing something different - they'll very often have heavily correlated positions. I wouldn't be running all these systems on the same product. I don't need to focus as intensely on any one market as when discretionary trading, so trading more markets is logical.

As for your question Wysiwyg, algos are gaining ground at prop shops. I'd argue that they're supplementary and not a replacement for the entirety of discretionary trading.


----------



## PPC NO 1 (1 March 2017)

Hi hedgedhog
I have 2 questions for you.
1. Is it still possible for us to have a night shift job (e.g. a cleaner or night shift data entry) while we are still learning to become a prop trader? 
2. What is the working condition like after the first year? I searched this info on the internet and I found different answers. There were people that said it was a stressful working environment and they were expected to work very long hours. On the other end, there were people that said the working hours were flexible. They were basically their own boss. What mattered was whether they made profit.
Thank you, hedgedhog.


----------



## Mr J (13 March 2017)

Not hedgehog but qualified to answer:

1. If you're putting in the effort, you probably won't have the energy to do another job during the week. I remember a TH quote years back, that they're looking for people that are willing to devote their life to trading for at least a couple years - it's 100% true because that is what is required. Those that survived have put in huge screen time, and not because they were forced to. Anyone that complains about the hours would be best off doing something else.

2. I'd say the lifestyle is more flexible. The hours may or may not be. You might go through a good run where you'd working less hours because everything is going smoothly. Then you'll hit a bump and have to work your butt off to get back on top of things. You can't expect the hours to lessen. What you can expect - if you do well - is being able to take time off, go on a holiday etc whenever you want.


----------



## hedgedhog (4 April 2017)

PPC NO 1 said:


> Hi hedgedhog
> I have 2 questions for you.
> 1. Is it still possible for us to have a night shift job (e.g. a cleaner or night shift data entry) while we are still learning to become a prop trader?
> 2. What is the working condition like after the first year? I searched this info on the internet and I found different answers. There were people that said it was a stressful working environment and they were expected to work very long hours. On the other end, there were people that said the working hours were flexible. They were basically their own boss. What mattered was whether they made profit.
> Thank you, hedgedhog.




1. No, Mr J put it well. Prop trading requires full dedication which is why at the interview you will always be asked if you can make it through the first year without pay. 

2. Working hours are flexible but fixed at the same time. It's very difficult for you to maintain an edge in the market if you miss trades that your strategy should be taking. A strategy's profit is not infinite, edge is constantly disappearing and reappearing and your equity curve could look drastically different if you decide to take the wrong day/week off. So picking and choosing days to take off is not beneficial to yourself but in saying that it is possible to pick and choose certain days that you know will not be very active for your strategies or the market in general. You don't have to be in front of the screens from 9-5, you can be there 11-5 some days and know it won't affect your long-term return too much, but too much of that and again, you will lose your edge in reading the market etc.


----------



## OmegaTrader (1 May 2017)

*Proprietary Traders - New and Experienced*
*Cygnet Proprietary Trading, Western Australia's first and only proprietary trading firm, is looking to recruit new and experienced traders for its newly opened office in Perth.*




Something that has just popped up recently in my searches. Anyone have any info to add?


On one side it is new -alot of the sites look too simple and my spidey sense were tingling but they seem to tingle at anything ...


Digging further the name storm trading as well as AG trading and south africa. Then a tingle from deep in my brain went SMB capital visits south africa and professional athletes employed at props.


I wish my brain would actually focus on important things instead of tingling all the time...



http://www.smbtraining.com/blog/an-excerpt-from-theplaybook-south-africa

https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaun-rudman-23286345/

https://www.seek.com.au/job/3334120...b80a6ed27e5e7adc7dee12103105-4211058&ref=beta


https://www.cygnettrading.com.au/
https://twitter.com/cygnettrading
https://www.facebook.com/CygnetProprietaryTrading
http://au.mycompanydetails.com/company/cygnet-proprietary-trading-pty-ltd/617654958
https://axiafutures.com/


??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_Rudman


----------



## The Bear (1 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> *Proprietary Traders - New and Experienced*
> *Cygnet Proprietary Trading, Western Australia's first and only proprietary trading firm, is looking to recruit new and experienced traders for its newly opened office in Perth.*
> 
> 
> ...



Never heard of Cygnet but from the website looks like it is part of Axia Futures.

Axia Futures was started by Alex Haywood from Futex in the UK....They employ alot of South African's as Alex is from there too. Brannigan Barrett is another one.

They trade the same way as Futex did....Prominently European Futures like the Bund etc and is based around Market/Volume Profile and the Price Ladder. But a few guys their do trade major economic events, the ES, Crude and swing trade some spot FX.

Will be interesting to see how it pans out.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 May 2017)

I know the guy who has set it up and he is looking to fill a gap that the other guys are struggling to do...

Ex propex and aliom. Lots of experience in futs and training. 

Looks to be well backed and smart enough to make it work. Certainly nothing else like it over there.


----------



## skc (1 May 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> I know the guy who has set it up and he is looking to fill a gap that the other guys are struggling to do...
> 
> Ex propex and aliom. Lots of experience in futs and training.
> 
> Looks to be well backed and smart enough to make it work. Certainly nothing else like it over there.




I don't know why they they didn't include the founder's name/profile on the website?

A quick glance at the website tells me nothing... could do with more information given they are recruiting.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 May 2017)

Give them time. I have a small idea how much work it would take to setup and its not insignificant. I guess ya cannot get everything perfect from the third day.


----------



## OmegaTrader (1 May 2017)

I was thinking of applying I will prob fail anyway so nothing lost. At least I will be off the procrastinating armchair for a while.


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> I was thinking of applying I will prob fail anyway so nothing lost. At least I will be off the procrastinating armchair for a while.



Are you in Perth?


----------



## OmegaTrader (1 May 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> Are you in Perth?



Yes in Wa.


----------



## OmegaTrader (1 May 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> Are you in Perth?



What is your advice ?

lol just give up and die...


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Yes in Wa.



Ok cool. Probably better to approach it with an attitude of positivity rather than filling in time.


----------



## skc (1 May 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> Give them time. I have a small idea how much work it would take to setup and its not insignificant. I guess ya cannot get everything perfect from the third day.




3 days, really?! Good on them. A leadership team profile would help recruiting and should offer decent return/effort ratio so hopefully they get it sorted soon.

Now I wonder if anyone would start a prop shop in Brisbane...


----------



## OmegaTrader (1 May 2017)

skc said:


> 3 days, really?! Good on them. A leadership team profile would help recruiting and should offer decent return/effort ratio so hopefully they get it sorted soon.
> 
> Now I wonder if anyone would start a prop shop in Brisbane...



I will!


----------



## OmegaTrader (3 May 2017)

Lol there email inbox got spammed big time. Caveat emptor I suppose putting it on seek every man and his dog applies for anything






Hi

Thank you very much for your application to Cygnet Proprietary Trading.

We HATE when you send out a job application and just hear nothing back! We are trying to do better for you so our aim is to personally contact everyone who applies. Either via phone or for an in-person interview. Please be patient with us. We have received a LOT of interest for the position. But we will be in touch.

In the meantime, here is some reading you can do to help yourself understand the role better.

"One Good Trade" by Mike Bellafiore
Anything by Brett Steenbarger - http://traderfeed.blogspot.com.au/

Please make sure you follow us on all forms of social media (see below), and sign up to our distribution list on our website, www.cygnettrading.com.au .

We look forward to helping you on your trading journey

The team @ Cygnet Trading

https://twitter.com/cygnettrading
https://www.facebook.com/CygnetProprietaryTrading/

----------
This email was sent by SEEK Ltd (SEEK) on behalf of an Advertiser. SEEK and the Advertiser are independent contracting parties, and SEEK does not act as agent or partner of the Advertiser. SEEK in no way endorses any action taken by the advertiser under, or in relation to, the relevant advertisement the subject of your application. Further, the Advertiser is wholly responsible for the contents of this email and  SEEK does not endorse, and accepts no responsibility or liability for any content, information or image contained in this email. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately.


----------



## Trembling Hand (3 May 2017)

skc said:


> 3 days, really?! Good on them.



Arrr no! I just meant its very early days. Lots to do and figure out so not surprising that there's more to do.


----------



## The Bear (5 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> I was thinking of applying I will prob fail anyway so nothing lost. At least I will be off the procrastinating armchair for a while.



@OmegaTrader here's one of the guys from Cygnet on CWT
https://chatwithtraders.com/ep-123-darren-reed/


----------



## OmegaTrader (5 May 2017)

The Bear said:


> @OmegaTrader here's one of the guys from Cygnet on CWT
> https://chatwithtraders.com/ep-123-darren-reed/




Yep

I have yet to listen but I will.

I am 100 times more cynical that most people and I am not affiliated in any way.

But they seem genuine. Alot lot lot of people applied and only 3-4 people will get a place. 

Amazing that they are actually making an effort to reach out to people then giving the standard BS that alot companies give you.

Still setting up etc


Only time can tell that though if it all works out and continues on the same track.


----------



## Trembling Hand (5 May 2017)

Gezz Omega. You have a prop setting up right on your doorstep which being in WA is a massive bit of luck and you seem about as keen as someone who is about to get root canal work!! From my reading as far as standing out and getting the 1 in 500 position you're lacking any sort of enthusiasm. Weighed up against the rest how do you think that will slide?


----------



## skc (5 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Amazing that they are actually making an effort to reach out to people then giving the standard BS that alot companies give you.
> 
> Still setting up etc




If I wanted to get into prop trading, I would call them up and offer my service for free to help help them set up. Depending on what skills I have, I could help them put website together, take photos, choose IT equipment, connect phones, shift boxes, assemble office furniture, buy coffee and tea etc etc. 

See if I can find the opportunity to build some rapport, show my passion for trading etc... I think that might give me a better chance than getting picked out of hundreds of applicants, especially if I have nothing particularly outstanding to offer on the trading front.


----------



## CanOz (6 May 2017)

WA is a great time zone for Europe. My bet is these guys will be more directional than spreads and they'll  be Europe and US product focused, sounds like a different model to the usual Australian model of bums on seats for rebates....


----------



## OmegaTrader (6 May 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> Gezz Omega. You have a prop setting up right on your doorstep which being in WA is a massive bit of luck and you seem about as keen as someone who is about to get root canal work!! From my reading as far as standing out and getting the 1 in 500 position you're lacking any sort of enthusiasm. Weighed up against the rest how do you think that will slide?





Where have I lacked enthusiasm? You have a bias against me and misinterpret my posts and cynical jokes )


 I have already applied straight away. I was probably one of the first to actually interview.  I am not a genius or incredible in anyway. I am just being realistic and not BS myself and others. I am at a point in my life where commitments will not stop from putting in the hours and lack of income. When I say armchair I mean metaphorical as in armchair investor/commentator and getting off the sidelines. NOT Armchair as in something to do just to pass the time.

3-4 out of 500 odd as you say is not a good probability but I still put in 100%. I know in soccer all the time the guy is faster than me, so I stand back a bit to compensate - if I match him the whole game I will be dead by half time. 

I felt being honest is better than I am all passionate and alpha male etc. I thought that would be see through.







skc said:


> If I wanted to get into prop trading, I would call them up and offer my service for free to help help them set up. Depending on what skills I have, I could help them put website together, take photos, choose IT equipment, connect phones, shift boxes, assemble office furniture, buy coffee and tea etc etc.
> 
> See if I can find the opportunity to build some rapport, show my passion for trading etc... I think that might give me a better chance than getting picked out of hundreds of applicants, especially if I have nothing particularly outstanding to offer on the trading front.





I thought about that but then I thought it would backfire, like when someone serving you says hi how are you or have a good one. But you can tell they are not genuine. But then again it works for some people.



CanOz said:


> WA is a great time zone for Europe. My bet is these guys will be more directional than spreads and they'll  be Europe and US product focused, sounds like a different model to the usual Australian model of bums on seats for rebates....




The focus will be on Eurex/in Europe, time frame WA would be 2pm-11pm. Then people would branch out from there, that is the plan I heard.


----------



## rb250660 (6 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> ...sounds like a different model to the usual Australian model of bums on seats for rebates....




I thought this is how these places operate. If you're break even or better you're perfect for the job. Ther traders interests and the prop shops interests are very different.


----------



## CanOz (7 May 2017)

rb250660 said:


> I thought this is how these places operate. If you're break even or better you're perfect for the job. Ther traders interests and the prop shops interests are very different.




My point being the job of being a liquidity provider was taking precedence over developing traders with strategies to generate superior returns....indeed rewarding better for some shops.


----------



## Trembling Hand (7 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Where have I lacked enthusiasm? You have a bias against me and misinterpret my posts and cynical



Ok cool. Have you listen to that chat with traders pod cast?


----------



## joselopezde (8 May 2017)

Do you know any prop firm that pays a salary to its trainees?


----------



## CanOz (8 May 2017)

joselopezde said:


> Do you know any prop firm that pays a salary to its trainees?




Unheard of, take up a weekend job.


----------



## Rocket130713 (9 May 2017)

CanOz said:


> Unheard of, take up a weekend job.




Hello, does anyone know who "Star Beta" prop trading firm use as their "clearing firm" for futures trades?  Which clearing firm does Star Beta clear through?  I know that Propex and Genesis both clear through ABN Amro bank.  Does Star Beta also "clear through" ABN Amro bank, for futures trading?  Thanks in advance.  Would really appreciate any help on this question.  Kind regards, Rocket


----------



## CanOz (9 May 2017)

Also ABN


----------



## OmegaTrader (10 May 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> Ok cool. Have you listen to that chat with traders pod cast?




Yeah a couple of times. It has just cemented what I have stated. Really really honest. Really applicable to Australia. Really good.

+ Made train rides alot better.

Verbatim Darren reed: "I have just recorded an interview with chat with traders it is a really good resource about traders talking honestly. Look at it etc"

With other interviews ... then looks like a big resource. I have never even heard of it before. Actually once I think.


Again  I  think to myself do I regret not being more aggressive/alpha. One side yes, one side better to be honest and not get tripped up.

This is the only chance bar going over east or track record later on.

I normally don't mind dental work. The dentist gives me plenty of anaesthetic and I have a good sleep.

Unlike others in the family who refuse it. 

ahaha







joselopezde said:


> Do you know any prop firm that pays a salary to its trainees?





CanOz said:


> Unheard of, take up a weekend job.




lol hahaha

This is what  will be doing to fund future trading loses


----------



## Trembling Hand (11 May 2017)

Omega even if ya don't get a go first time there are other ways in. I imagine after the initial rush there is still plenty of ways to impress. If you get an interview find out what they want to see you do and then do it, stay in contact and have another shot 6 months on.


----------



## fiftyeight (11 May 2017)

How did I miss this???

Writing my "Stand out from the crowd" application now


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 May 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> Omega even if ya don't get a go first time there are other ways in. I imagine after the initial rush there is still plenty of ways to impress. If you get an interview find out what they want to see you do and then do it, stay in contact and have another shot 6 months on.




Yeah 

I think that is the way it will go.

I already had interview. I don't think I got it.

From what I heard-for the training program, they prefer someone who hasn't traded, has no responsibility, can sustain not working for 1-2 years at least and is of competitive nature.

I don't know how many people will work 2pm-11pm. Even in the best case scenario, For a year or so and not have an income. Then another year until profit split becomes economical. At Least. 


I think a lot of people just apply without actually thinking about the actual job they are applying for.


----------



## Quant (12 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Yeah
> 
> I think that is the way it will go.
> 
> ...




Seriously who would want this position ?


----------



## minwa (12 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> I don't know how many people will *work* 2pm-11pm. Even in the best case scenario, For a year or so and not have an income. Then another year until profit split becomes economical. At Least.
> 
> I think a lot of people just apply without actually thinking about the *actual job* they are applying for.




Wrong mentality. Learning how to trade is not work or job.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (12 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> I don't know how many people will work 2pm-11pm. Even in the best case scenario, For a year or so and not have an income. Then another year until profit split becomes economical. At Least.






Quant said:


> Seriously who would want this position ?




I'm a little surprised by these comments, if you really wanted to trade futures as a professional, you would jump at this chance. I'm basically on night shift so I can trade those hours on purpose, it's all I'm working towards. For the benefits of being in a pretty decent new prop environment(going by how it sounds on his CWT interview and what he wants to achieve) and have them backing you, their guidance and their training, there's nothing better in the trading world.

You either want it or you don't. To achieve anything you want to achieve you have to go through the **** first, as if they're going to pay a trainee prop guy when he's literally not doing anything for the firm, you get paid when you start making them money. You're not doing them a service by sitting there using their resources, you're costing them money to begin with so it makes sense you don't get paid while training.


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 May 2017)

minwa said:


> Wrong mentality. Learning how to trade is not work or job.



What mentality that is the truth.
For people who have commitments they have to be realistic. Dad I'm hungry... Sorry Kids you cant eat because trading is different.

Alot of people would be put off by that aspect and that is exactly what they would think, I am not saying that is my mindset.



Quant said:


> Seriously who would want this position ?






> someone who hasn't traded, has no responsibility, can sustain not working for 1-2 years at least and is of competitive nature.




You go to uni for 3 years and pay around $30,000. HEX debt -one of the only non bankrupt-able debts. WTF is that worth . FA. Everyone has a degree now but it is socially acceptable.

Of course you have to make sure that if you commit the prop is  not just flogging courses or taking advantage of people.

1) How long would it take for a retail trader to be consistently profitable
2)How is it different to what a retail trader would have to do anyway, learning curve will be shorter 99% of the time
3) The capital conundrum. You need money to make money. I have money why work, just retire and take it easy, I don't have money, then trading is not economically viable, might as well work a stable job


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 May 2017)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> I'm a little surprised by these comments, if you really wanted to trade futures as a professional, you would jump at this chance. I'm basically on night shift so I can trade those hours on purpose, it's all I'm working towards. For the benefits of being in a pretty decent new prop environment(going by how it sounds on his CWT interview and what he wants to achieve) and have them backing you, their guidance and their training, there's nothing better in the trading world.
> 
> You either want it or you don't. To achieve anything you want to achieve you have to go through the **** first, as if they're going to pay a trainee prop guy when he's literally not doing anything for the firm, you get paid when you start making them money. You're not doing them a service by sitting there using their resources, you're costing them money to begin with so it makes sense you don't get paid while training.






Quant said:


> Seriously who would want this position ?




Please *Don't* lump me in with other people and *distort* *my words.*

I reiterate, *THAT IS NOT MY OPINION
*
I am simply presenting what people with commitments would prob think.

I am not one of those people.


----------



## Quant (12 May 2017)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> I'm a little surprised by these comments, if you really wanted to trade futures as a professional, you would jump at this chance



Well survival comes to mind as a con , roof and food isn't free , and the fact they want non traders so the chances of making a return in the short term are remote .

"" From what I heard-for the training program, they prefer someone who hasn't traded, has no responsibility, can sustain not working for 1-2 years at least and is of competitive nature. ""

I don't know the details but I'm assuming the account you start trading will be so small it may as well be demo , id suggest these guys are risking very little to start with and you the " applicant " risks most , I don't see the appeal myself but we are all different . I see prop shops as churn and burn , its all good if you make it but the alternative is'nt very appealling to me . I suppose if you are broke and are in low paying employment its an option . I'd love to know the stats on success% and returns over x periods . My assumptions may well be way of base and I might be the naïve one here . But anyway it's just an opinion and worth what it cost


----------



## Quant (12 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Please *Don't* lump me in with other people and *distort* *my words.*
> 
> I reiterate, *THAT IS NOT MY OPINION
> *
> ...





Ease up I just quoted your words , no distortion whatsoever , I asked a valid question given the facts you produced . Who can sustain not working for 1-2 years  , no-one I know who might be interested in becoming a " pro " trader  . Ive paid my dues and I know whats involved , I'm no newbie  .


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 May 2017)

Quant said:


> Ease up I just quoted your words , no distortion whatsoever , I asked a valid question given the facts you produced . Who can sustain not working for 1-2 years  , no-one I know who might be interested in becoming a " pro " trader  . Ive paid my dues and I know whats involved , I'm no newbie  .




I was *NOT *replying to *Quant*

I was replying ThingyMajiggy and  *minwa.
*
People should read the entire post before commenting on what my opinion is.

I have been misconstrued four times in this thread already.


They say I have the wrong attitude and then quote you. (*Quant)*

My grasp of the english language can not be that bad or can it? 

WTF


----------



## Quant (12 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> I was *NOT *replying to *Quant*
> 
> I was replying ThingyMajiggy and  *minwa.
> *
> ...




My mistake but you did quote me just prior


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 May 2017)

Quant said:


> My mistake but you did quote me just prior




Sorry for my part in this. The quote had you in it. But I was not replying to your post.

Apparently to some people you represent me )


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (12 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Please *Don't* lump me in with other people and *distort* *my words.*
> 
> I reiterate, *THAT IS NOT MY OPINION
> *
> ...




My apologies, I assumed you were representing yourself when you post on forums, not others.


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 May 2017)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> My apologies, I assumed you were representing yourself when you post on forums, not others.




Please read the entire post and context otherwise everyone just gets confused.

thanks


----------



## Trembling Hand (12 May 2017)

Quant said:


> I don't know the details but I'm assuming the account you start trading will be so small it may as well be demo .



Nah you are way off there. The size is usually around 1-5 full futures contracts. Very few would get to that size taking the normal cfd retail bleed route.



Quant said:


> I see prop shops as churn and burn , its all good if you make it but the alternative is'nt very appealling to me . I suppose if you are broke and are in low paying employment its an option . I'd love to know the stats on success% and returns over x periods .



I wonder how many years the trader who does make it via the retail path wastes? I'm betting it's a lot more expensive than earning nothing for 6 months to a year while having your nose pointed in the right direction every day.

From what I have seen out of an intake of 10 - 15, one guy hits the ground running right from the start making some money reasonable quickly, one or two more show promise and are around breakeven in the first year and then take off after that. 5 or more will be cut after the first few months then the rest are a slow bleed til they drop or are cut. I think it's reasonable odds give no dollar risk. Of course depends on a heap of things not least the market conditions which at the moment are pretty tough.


----------



## Quant (12 May 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nah you are way off there. The size is usually around 1-5 full futures contracts. Very few would get to that size taking the normal cfd retail bleed route.




Ok that's a little surprising



> I wonder how many years the trader who does make it via the retail path wastes? I'm betting it's a lot more expensive than earning nothing for 6 months to a year while having your nose pointed in the right direction every day.




Well I know I took a a few years to get it right and then I got shattered by GFC so I def know the road , although it took me a couple years to get serious about it . Honestly in my experience I doubt more than 5% retail make the grade long term , its a hard slog no doubt but I don't really think the success rate of prop traders will be multiples better , I suppose it varies on the shop and their objectives , the selection process might help weed out the no hopers thus improving the strike rate . As you suggest it depends on market conditions/phase as to how easy it will be , I know I hit my straps 05 to 07 and in hindsite it was the ideal time . 08/09 brought me back to earth quick smart and made me re-evaluate my methods bigtime after I got over the emotional scars that catastrophic losses bring . Today I see that as the best thing that ever happened to me tradingwise although I wouldn't have said that in 2010 when I was gunshy and reluctant to hold a position for long at all . Learning to trade is a tough gig either way id suggest and the chances of success relatively low . The quality of the guy teaching at a prop shop obv a big part of it as well and at least the guy here is well credentialed although I do wonder why the prop shop route .

Would seem there is no easy answer


----------



## skc (13 May 2017)

Quant said:


> . Who can sustain not working for 1-2 years  , no-one I know who might be interested in becoming a " pro " trader .




You might be surprised... on the equities desk every now and then there are people with very solid financial industry experience joining as newbie prop traders. They may not have traded prop equities before, but they could have been a broker, credit guy in investment bank, risk guy in a hedge fund or trader for a commercial bank etc. Some of them have made enough in the past so they can afford to earn no income for a year or two whilst sending 2 kids through private school. 

So there.... now you know indirectly someone who can sustain not working for 1-2 years and is interested in becoming a pro trader. Not all of them become successful traders, mind you. The mentality of "eat what you hunt" is very different for someone who's used to earning a salary.


----------



## Mirus3000 (13 May 2017)

Prop firms make money in  a "Training program" and other near-market things (books) now.  But not by the trading =))


----------



## CanOz (13 May 2017)

In order to maintain steady cashflow, almost all successful prop shops are marketing their training programs now. They recognize that in times of low volatility, its the only way to ride it out.... tighten up the risk controls and sell education. If they can create a brand around it, it can be a viable part of a smart business plan.

I don't believe it is unreasonable to start a proprietary trading business. As long as you have a good basis for training, enough capital for risk (margin) and expenses, a couple of good partners, some vol....it should work. I have a mate that's willing to throw in 50k, no questions asked and hes a prop trader...

If anyone else is interested in doing something here in Brisbane, PM me.

sorry to hijack your thread OT...


----------



## OmegaTrader (13 May 2017)

Mirus3000 said:


> Prop firms make money in  a "Training program" and other near-market things (books) now.  But not by the trading =))





Could you please outline you experience in the matter or any props you have dealt with.
Thanks



CanOz said:


> In order to maintain steady cashflow, almost all successful prop shops are marketing their training programs now. They recognize that in times of low volatility, its the only way to ride it out.... tighten up the risk controls and sell education. If they can create a brand around it, it can be a viable part of a smart business plan.
> 
> I don't believe it is unreasonable to start a proprietary trading business. As long as you have a good basis for training, enough capital for risk (margin) and expenses, a couple of good partners, some vol....it should work. I have a mate that's willing to throw in 50k, no questions asked and hes a prop trader...
> 
> ...




How much equity will $15 buy in your firm ahahah 

Lol I already hijacked the thread by ranting. It is hard not to get in the ranting brawl especially when provoked by pseudo anonymous people.

I can understand the sentiment of buyer beware, I have come across a lot of those get rich quick by trading courses.

I suppose in reality  (as is most of the time) it is somewhere in between, commercial gain and being genuine.




From my recollection 
Verbatim with Darren.

*Darren *Do you have any questions?
*Me*  There is a certain sense of cynicism out there about props and that they are just trying to sell courses.
*Darren *We have a certain sense of cynicism with people coming to us... It is not just like we go right here bro here you go here is your login... we actually have people come out at the trading desk with us. Day in day out .The high price point is to make sure that people are genuine..

*Me* To stop the time wasters
*Darren* Yeah the time wasters and people who say they have a passion and really don't. We put alot of our own time and effort into it. We don't make any money by trading guys in the trainee program.We want to make sure they are committed to it. etc etc


----------



## Mirus3000 (13 May 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> Could you please outline you experience in the matter or any props you have dealt with.
> Thanks



I had worked for russian prop named Alor . We traded USA and Russian markets(stocks, futures). Sinse the volatility on world marked have droped  under floor It became too hard to make money on market. Now props make money on their courses and extra fee for commission  ,"The Best infrastructure " , a mentor
and so forth.
But In the real world, these things are useless.


----------



## Mirus3000 (13 May 2017)

If you want to make own prop you can see here https://www.daytradetheworld.com


----------



## OmegaTrader (1 June 2017)

Just putting it out there.


 I recall verbatim. We will get back to you in mid may. Also referring to a previous post of the job-mail sent to candidates.



> Thank you very much for your application to Cygnet Proprietary Trading.
> 
> We HATE when you send out a job application and just hear nothing back! We are trying to do better for you so our aim is to personally contact everyone who applies. Either via phone or for an in-person interview. Please be patient with us. We have received a LOT of interest for the position. But we will be in touch.




The job is no longer online.
https://www.seek.com.au/job/33341205



> This job is no longer advertised
> Expired jobs remain on SEEK for 90 days after last advertised, or until they are removed by the advertiser.




Just wondering options on potential actions I can take given the context.

1) Wait and sit on my hands
2) Reach out -The way/If I should do this?
3) Re apply later.

Given that the trainees route it is preferable for no trading experience. I am trying to work out the play to make from here...

I hope this an indication of anything


----------



## CanOz (1 June 2017)

Reach out, pester the crap out of them until you're in....nothing beats persistence!


----------



## Trembling Hand (1 June 2017)

Why wouldn't you have already made personal contact? It's clear as day from that chat with traders podcast that Darren openly invited contact. 

Even without that info bloody hell! if ya want the position go get it. You surely don't think being anything but aggressive will get you highly sort job with very few position? Hell any decent job now days. 

We are in the age of BS and relationships. A resume will never cut it now. It aint 1980....


----------



## CanOz (1 June 2017)

Exactly, contact him. I spoke to him on Skype for 40 minutes on Monday.


----------



## Indoril (2 June 2017)

Mirus3000 said:


> If you want to make own prop you can see here https://www.daytradetheworld.com




This company seems interesting but it also seems to good to be true. Do you have any experience with them? There doesn't seem to be a lot of information outside of their own website and I don't really want to give them my details for a free brochure.


----------



## Mirus3000 (2 June 2017)

The firm is the former Swift Trade .
I saw the office of their partner in Moscow.
I think they have a partners in Australia or Singapore. You can ask them to visit partner offices


----------



## Tigs21 (3 June 2017)

Any insight on cygnet?
Do they trade Aussie interest rate futures like the Sydney prop shops but prefer the euro session?
Axia futures must help with the training but you wouldn't have to pay anything I would hope.. am going to get in touch with them next week just hoping they're legit


----------



## OmegaTrader (3 June 2017)

Tigs21 said:


> Any insight on cygnet?
> Do they trade Aussie interest rate futures like the Sydney prop shops but prefer the euro session?
> Axia futures must help with the training but you wouldn't have to pay anything I would hope.. am going to get in touch with them next week just hoping they're legit




I don't remember in particular if it was index or interest rates or directional or spreads. Sorry. Don't want to give the wrong info. Eurex in the beginning and what you gravitate towards later on is your choice is all I remember.

They seem legit in my limited opinion. There is three ways to get in.

1) Trainee program
2) Established trader looking to plugin in to resources and capital.
3) Pay to be part of the program

If you apply as a trainee,Eurex and free training . But that does mean you will  work your arse off  in terms of effort and time. 2pm-11pm, no pay until you go live could take a while etc etc. 

Imagine the economic cost of that? But as a retail trader you are prob doing that anyway with your small capital/ hourly rate relative to working+ learning curve.

If you listen to the chat with traders podcast, that will help alot to get an insight into the philosophy.

Most of that info is online etc

good luck mate


----------



## OmegaTrader (6 June 2017)

I wonder how many of these were sent out 
hahaha

Thank you very much for coming into the interview at Cygnet Trading. Unfortunately, at this time, we are unable to find a spot for you in our in-house Careers program. 

We were overwhelmed with applications and can only take a limited amount of applicants.

We encourage you to go to our website (www.cygnettrading.com.au) and sign up to our distribution list. You will then be up to speed with our latest training offerings, news, and any future recruitment.

gg


----------



## OmegaTrader (15 June 2017)

A recent email doing the rounds.

Join Our Team

We currently have space for ONE self-funded trader to join our team via our TradeDesk programme.

Be part of a professional trading environment. This opportunity would suit a trader who has some experience, has their own funds but feels they need an environment where they can develop their trading, grow their skills and be part of a community of traders. 

Please contact us for rates and more info.


darren@cygnettrading.com.au


----------



## CanOz (15 June 2017)

And what are you doing to pester the crap out of him?


----------



## Bearjangles (21 June 2017)

First time poster. It's cool to see so many people still interested in trading as a career on this thread.

I was part of the first trainee group at Propex in 2007, joining straight out of uni. Mark Zagora did the training and those were the days where we still got paid 1000 stipend every month to train (long gone now!) 

Anyway, I am still in the business and don't mind giving advice to aspiring traders. This can include the reputation of each shop, people who run it, group success rate, etc. Let me know if you have any questions!


----------



## CanOz (21 June 2017)

Hey bear, do you still trade prop or on your own?


----------



## Triathlete (22 June 2017)

Bearjangles said:


> First time poster. It's cool to see so many people still interested in trading as a career on this thread.
> 
> I was part of the first trainee group at Propex in 2007, joining straight out of uni. Mark Zagora did the training and those were the days where we still got paid 1000 stipend every month to train (long gone now!)
> 
> Anyway, I am still in the business and don't mind giving advice to aspiring traders. This can include the reputation of each shop, people who run it, group success rate, etc. Let me know if you have any questions!



Hi Bearjangles,
                         Maybe just go ahead and give us your thoughts and experience about the whole process and what you went through including successes, disappointments, how long it took you and others on average to become successful...any good years or bad years...markets you traded that were easier to trade or not... etc ...etc
I am sure we will be all interested to hear your story.


----------



## Bearjangles (22 June 2017)

CanOz said:


> Hey bear, do you still trade prop or on your own?



Hi CanOz,
Still prop and always have been. Not backing myself has helped me to deal with the pressure alot.


----------



## Bearjangles (22 June 2017)

Triathlete said:


> Hi Bearjangles,
> Maybe just go ahead and give us your thoughts and experience about the whole process and what you went through including successes, disappointments, how long it took you and others on average to become successful...any good years or bad years...markets you traded that were easier to trade or not... etc ...etc
> I am sure we will be all interested to hear your story.




Successes: Trading in the GFC was good for most of the trainees. Most of us focused on index derivatives and the guys who did the best were swing traders. Scalpers did well too since there was enough to go around. After that there was still pockets of volatility like the multiple instances of EU crisis, Japanese earthquake and US government shutdown/downgrade, which I liked.
Disappointments: Not quick enough to adapt at the turn of the new decade. It was clear the markets were moving more efficiently with algos swamping the market. The prices I used to be able to take just weren't there anymore.. I relied on my perceived "edge" in my core product for too long and I saw it slip away over time.
Time: I was lucky to have other very good traders in the first few groups at Propex and we competed in a friendly, constructive way. On top of a friendly trading environment, it took me 2 months to be profitable.
Markets: As I mentioned earlier, most of us were in index outrights. There was an immense amount of money in fixed interest as well but it was perceived to be too boring by the trainees back then. The trading business since then has gone towards FI and spreads, which I guess is natural if you look at the pre-open depth in SPI (ughhh)
Extra: I know I said I can talk about the nuances of different shops in my original post but I no longer think it's a good idea.. I don't want to play favourites in this thread but I am sure one would ultimately be interpreted as the "best choice". I have respect for all the shops out there that devote the time and capital to help new traders make a career out of something as difficult as trading, because I was a recipient of such opportunity. What does grind my gears is when I think about firms charging trainees to learn. I disagree with the business model and think it is wrong to take advantage of wide-eyed grads and midlife crisis professionals.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (22 June 2017)

Bearjangles said:


> Successes: Trading in the GFC was good for most of the trainees. Most of us focused on index derivatives and the guys who did the best were swing traders. Scalpers did well too since there was enough to go around. After that there was still pockets of volatility like the multiple instances of EU crisis, Japanese earthquake and US government shutdown/downgrade, which I liked.
> Disappointments: Not quick enough to adapt at the turn of the new decade. It was clear the markets were moving more efficiently with algos swamping the market. The prices I used to be able to take just weren't there anymore.. I relied on my perceived "edge" in my core product for too long and I saw it slip away over time.
> Time: I was lucky to have other very good traders in the first few groups at Propex and we competed in a friendly, constructive way. On top of a friendly trading environment, it took me 2 months to be profitable.
> Markets: As I mentioned earlier, most of us were in index outrights. There was an immense amount of money in fixed interest as well but it was perceived to be too boring by the trainees back then. The trading business since then has gone towards FI and spreads, which I guess is natural if you look at the pre-open depth in SPI (ughhh)
> Extra: I know I said I can talk about the nuances of different shops in my original post but I no longer think it's a good idea.. I don't want to play favourites in this thread but I am sure one would ultimately be interpreted as the "best choice". I have respect for all the shops out there that devote the time and capital to help new traders make a career out of something as difficult as trading, because I was a recipient of such opportunity. What does grind my gears is when I think about firms charging trainees to learn. I disagree with the business model and think it is wrong to take advantage of wide-eyed grads and midlife crisis professionals.





What's profitability like among prop guys in the last 2-3 years? Are guys still killing it or is everyone just getting by?


----------



## Bearjangles (22 June 2017)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> What's profitability like among prop guys in the last 2-3 years? Are guys still killing it or is everyone just getting by?



Depending on how you trade. Spreaders who have big balls have done very well in last 3 years where scalpers not so much. People who specialise in multiple markets generally have done better


----------



## Tigs21 (27 June 2017)

Hey Bear,
Nice of you to offer your input.
Could you share some insight into your trading style and how it has changed over the years.


----------



## Bearjangles (27 June 2017)

Tigs21 said:


> Hey Bear,
> Nice of you to offer your input.
> Could you share some insight into your trading style and how it has changed over the years.



Hi Tigs,

I am happy to share my style up until 4 years ago or so. I started off as a tick scalper, with focus on visual price action. I was ok with economic figures but never good with technicals. My strength was interacting with the market to suss out pressure points. My favourite trade was definitely the counter-trade, where I was convicted to call the top/bottom for a few ticks. Most people would argue against the poor risk-profile of that but it worked for me.

I also followed alot of overseas markets like nikkei, minis and hangseng. We used to get influenced alot by those markets but you had to pick the right day for it. For example, news of chinese bank default is in the air so you want closely watch A or H-shares and go with the momentum when something pops, or when japanese earthquake was in play watch yen and nikkei. You get the drift.

As scalping got harder I got into more markets and traded more swing, averaging entry prices around a level I am comfortable with. There were big wins and losses, which I was not used to. My incompatibility with my own swings made me explore algos on TT and I have been doing that since!


----------



## Tigs21 (27 June 2017)

Bearjangles said:


> Hi Tigs,
> 
> I am happy to share my style up until 4 years ago or so. I started off as a tick scalper, with focus on visual price action. I was ok with economic figures but never good with technicals. My strength was interacting with the market to suss out pressure points. My favourite trade was definitely the counter-trade, where I was convicted to call the top/bottom for a few ticks. Most people would argue against the poor risk-profile of that but it worked for me.
> 
> ...





The reoccurring theme to me appears to be that scalping is done and dusted. I've never actually seen a proper explanation though.. Is it because algos  make order flow choppy and therefore harder to read? 

With your experience what would you suggest a newbie to start learning? I would assume you need some knowledge before attempting anything related to algos.


----------



## Bearjangles (28 June 2017)

Tigs21 said:


> The reoccurring theme to me appears to be that scalping is done and dusted. I've never actually seen a proper explanation though.. Is it because algos  make order flow choppy and therefore harder to read?
> 
> With your experience what would you suggest a newbie to start learning? I would assume you need some knowledge before attempting anything related to algos.



Hi Tigs,

Scalping is no way to earn a living at the moment. The people who can still do it are old-timers who have spent years in front of the screen so you are not going to get a leg up from them unless you are really good! Yes the algos flood the book and execute faster than humans can react so... I will give an example: say your favourite setup is buying the SPI when minis move 2 ticks and nikkei moves 1 tick with it. Your fastest reaction speed to recognise everything and click the appropriate size is let's say 0.4second, but a hitting algo can collect the signal and execute within 0.1second. You have no setup anymore and if you try to go to market at the next price that is the algo's exit price.

If you are interested in learning about algos, start off with a trading thesis and keep it simple, like the example above. Verbalize it and make it a rigid rule, then plug it into a simple engine somewhere (I am not familiar with retail platforms) and see how it goes. You don't have to make money with it but monitoring your own trade and trying to improve it will give you enough motivation to explore it further.

Learn spreads and try to get into Starbeta. They have a great reputation in the market and that's because Mark/Don have never done anyone wrong. Once you make it you are free to get the best deal for yourself but SB is the real deal for newbies.


----------



## Tigs21 (28 June 2017)

Bearjangles said:


> Hi Tigs,
> 
> Scalping is no way to earn a living at the moment. The people who can still do it are old-timers who have spent years in front of the screen so you are not going to get a leg up from them unless you are really good! Yes the algos flood the book and execute faster than humans can react so... I will give an example: say your favourite setup is buying the SPI when minis move 2 ticks and nikkei moves 1 tick with it. Your fastest reaction speed to recognise everything and click the appropriate size is let's say 0.4second, but a hitting algo can collect the signal and execute within 0.1second. You have no setup anymore and if you try to go to market at the next price that is the algo's exit price.
> 
> ...





Thanks Bear, very helpful


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (28 June 2017)

Bearjangles said:


> Learn spreads and try to get into Starbeta. They have a great reputation in the market and that's because Mark/Don have never done anyone wrong. Once you make it you are free to get the best deal for yourself but SB is the real deal for newbies.




I thought Don became a trainer because he couldn't trade anymore, was struggling to turn a profit. Not something I would want to hear from my trainer.


----------



## Bearjangles (28 June 2017)

ThingyMajiggy said:


> I thought Don became a trainer because he couldn't trade anymore, was struggling to turn a profit. Not something I would want to hear from my trainer.



I know Don to be both a great trader and trainer. We all have our reasons to evolve if we want to survive, whether trading more products or be flexible with style, or rolling our skills into something we can do even better. Most of us do a combination of them.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (28 June 2017)

I suppose training is a good way to gain new ideas from the fresh minds as well, if you're struggling to come up with a profit. A win for both parties.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy (29 June 2017)

Bearjangles said:


> As scalping got harder I got into more markets and traded more swing, averaging entry prices around a level I am comfortable with. There were big wins and losses, which I was not used to. My incompatibility with my own swings made me explore algos on TT and I have been doing that since!




You using ADL to do that? You have co-location or trading our local stuff? You doing any manual trading anymore or all algo setups?


----------



## OmegaTrader (8 July 2017)

Tigs21 said:


> Any insight on cygnet?
> Do they trade Aussie interest rate futures like the Sydney prop shops but prefer the euro session?
> Axia futures must help with the training but you wouldn't have to pay anything I would hope.. am going to get in touch with them next week just hoping they're legit






Bearjangles said:


> I know Don to be both a great trader and trainer. We all have our reasons to evolve if we want to survive, whether trading more products or be flexible with style, or rolling our skills into something we can do even better. Most of us do a combination of them.



1)
Tigs how did you go with cgynet?

2) Thank you Bear for your contribution. There is alot of detail there.

I have a couple of more questions for you
Do you have any association with star beta at the moment?
Can you provide more about how you operate at the moment at your current position in your prop shop?
Do you think that algo domination is inevitable 

Cheers omega


----------



## Tigs21 (9 July 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> 1)
> Tigs how did you go with cgynet?
> 
> 2) Thank you Bear for your contribution. There is alot of detail there.
> ...




I had a quick meet and greet, waiting for the next round of interviews. Will you be applying again in the next intake? Pretty small office isn't it, not necessarily a bad thing but just means there's limited positions


----------



## OmegaTrader (9 July 2017)

CAVEAT:

I AM NOT GIVING ANYBODY ADVICE OR STATING WHO/WHAT IS GOOD BAD OR INDIFFERENT.

IT IS JUST MY OPINION OF WHAT I HAVE SEEN SO FAR AND TRYING TO PROVIDE AN IMPARTIAL INSIGHT.

Realistically the options are limited in Perth and Australia.
There is only a handful in Australia and one that just started in Perth  haha

Some things stand out to me as positive, the feedback from other sources, chat with traders etc etc.
The freedom to branch out into other strategies not just rebate/spreads etc

Other things stand out as negative, the online media seemed quite rudimentary.
The ad seemed reminiscent of these get rich trading courses, 'don't miss out, Apply now' etc etc
Sales of courses/education etc

I don't want to be to negative and often do read too much into things.

The whole setup seemed ad hoc even the chat/interview seemed very ad hoc. One the one hand that could be good given what the prop environment represents in terms of making independent decisions/ being entrepreneurial, as well as the difficulties faced in being profitable etc but on the other hand  too much of a blase attitude comes across as laissez faire/as you please and can ring alarm bells.


The office space was a postage stamp. Yet I recall from that if all went well that the plan if successful was to expand etc.

I don't know if you have seen that street or go into the city but practically the whole street/commercial properties are for lease or sale.

I remember you asking about a trading groups in perth, both meetup groups I referred to have subsequently died a slow death. More will pop up and probably suffer the same fate. I hope this doesn't go the same way......
I mean it is different to a meetup but you know.


Stepping back from what I have seen, I thinking that the options are very limited anyway so getting a free education for your time and effort is still providing tremendous value if you are in a stage of your life to be able to commit.

In terms of my own journey, I feel that if I reapply the result will be the same. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

You know the conundrum - we don't want anyone who knows how to trade but that meets our criteria for training. In fact it is better if you know nothing about trading.

I need to focus on saving a reasonable amount for trading relevant to my own personal situation and going from there. I have made a rule that I will not do anything else or be distracted until I have done that and started to be actually serious in spending time meaningfully and trading with a meaningful amount.

If  I have done that by then I will reapply in some form.

Cheers Omega


----------



## CanOz (9 July 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> You know the conundrum - *we don't want anyone who knows how to trade* but that meets our criteria for training. In fact it is better if you know nothing about trading.




Is this really true? If you submit your broker statements, are you sure they'll not give you risk capital to trade if you have a successful track record as demonstrated in your broker statements...??


----------



## OmegaTrader (9 July 2017)

CanOz said:


> Is this really true? If you submit your broker statements, are you sure they'll not give you risk capital to trade if you have a successful track record as demonstrated in your broker statements...??




This is for the trainee option, a track record is a different scenario.


I have been told that it is better for a trainee to have not traded because they could start to internalise mistakes/ develop their own style etc .





OmegaTrader said:


> They seem legit in my limited opinion. There is three ways to get in.
> 
> 1) Trainee program
> 2) Established trader looking to plugin in to resources and capital.
> 3) Pay to be part of the program


----------



## CanOz (9 July 2017)

Thanks for clarifying that. Knowing how to trade and having tried to trade before are obviously a couple of different things....i totally understand their view. They know what works....


----------



## Trembling Hand (10 July 2017)

I've spent more effort and time trying to get into a nightclub than some of you young bucks have spent on trying to get into prop.

LOL I am now officially old.


----------



## skc (10 July 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> In terms of my own journey, I feel that if I reapply the result will be the same. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.




I am pretty sure the quote is "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing *over and over *and expecting different results." 

No body is going to define you insane if you try again after failing the first time!



Trembling Hand said:


> I've spent more effort and time trying to get into a nightclub than some of you young bucks have spent on trying to get into prop.




Recent advances in big data quants have revealed lots of secrets about getting into night clubs. What time of the day, the expression you should wear when you greet the bouncer, your apparent age, BMI, body odour index and many others...


----------



## Bearjangles (10 July 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> 1)
> Tigs how did you go with cgynet?
> 
> 2) Thank you Bear for your contribution. There is alot of detail there.
> ...



Hi Omega,

No association with Starbeta. I just know them well and like them. They have done something quite unique out there and I respect that.
Unfortunately I can't say much how I operate now, other than that I am still in prop.
No I think there will always be click/discretionary trading. There are very few all-encompassing algos so there will always be manual opportunities in the market.

I read your posts and can see you are still keen to get into the space. Good luck to you!


----------



## OmegaTrader (10 July 2017)

Trembling Hand said:


> I've spent more effort and time trying to get into a nightclub than some of you young bucks have spent on trying to get into prop.
> 
> LOL I am now officially old.




I am happy to swap roles with you 
Except for the age part.




skc said:


> I am pretty sure the quote is "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing *over and over *and expecting different results."
> 
> No body is going to define you insane if you try again after failing the first time!
> 
> ...





Yeah a bit dramatic, but nothing has changed since the last time. 

I find facial hair helps ahahah
lol



Bearjangles said:


> Hi Omega,
> 
> No association with Starbeta. I just know them well and like them. They have done something quite unique out there and I respect that.
> Unfortunately I can't say much how I operate now, other than that I am still in prop.
> ...




Thanks for that and all of your contributions.

Anything else you have to add would be of  benefit to anyone reading this thread

cheers


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 July 2017)

*A recent email*





> *Cygnet Trading Remote Trader Mentoring*






> *Cygnet Proprietary Trading <trading@cygnettrading.com.au>*
> 
> When we started Cygnet one of our key goals was to service traders in areas where they felt they had been neglected in the past. To give access to a professional trading environment, prop trading skills, mentoring and know-how in a way that was unparalleled and unprecedented.
> 
> ...


----------



## Quant (12 July 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> *A recent email*



The cynic in me says this was probably major part of the business plan the entire time .


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 July 2017)

Quant said:


> The cynic in me says this was probably major part of the business plan the entire time .




I am not getting involved in this one 


I am just presenting the information as it lies.

If it is noise or an indicator is for each person to decide for themselves.


----------



## Quant (12 July 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> I am not getting involved in this one
> 
> 
> I am just presenting the information as it lies.
> ...



LOL then why post it  ... whats the term  , " bait and hook "


----------



## OmegaTrader (12 July 2017)

Quant said:


> LOL then why post it  ... whats the term  , " bait and hook "




haha 
got ya lol

Just don't want a pointless fight to start, that seems to happen every 2nd post- metaphorically. 
Just trying to be impartial so others can look at the info and not be influenced by any of my implicit biases. So others can see a bit more of the bigger picture.

So if they are in the entry level position it is easier to see both sides.


----------



## skc (13 July 2017)

OmegaTrader said:


> haha
> got ya lol




Thanks for posting that. It's interesting to say the least. This part is hilarious.



> The initial fee is $495 AUD per month. We sucked this number totally out if the air. The fee may go up on subsequent intakes (if we have them), it may go down. As we said, this is an experiment for us as well based on feedback from other traders. We just don't know yet.




FWIW, the concept is OK from an aspiring trader's perspective. And if the content is good the fee is nothing. Obviously being a totally new service, it could be great or it could suck.

However, from the perspective of the trader who would be your mentor... no fking way! You can't pay me 20x that amount to babysit new traders plus their emotional problems. It will just get in the way of their own trading.



Quant said:


> The cynic in me says this was probably major part of the business plan the entire time .




$495 per month for an initial intake of 5 people = <$30k per year. If it's a business plan it's not overly ambitious, is it? 

My guess is that it is not a bad way to get some prospective traders. You charge them something to make sure they are not total time wasters. You get to see how they trade in quite detail without risking your own capital. And if you see great potential tell them there's 10x the limit available in your shop if they join up.

Whether too many people will sign up... I don't know.


----------



## Quant (13 July 2017)

skc said:


> $495 per month for an initial intake of 5 people = <$30k per year. If it's a business plan it's not overly ambitious, is it?



Once again the cynic in me sees MAX 5 as a way of getting signs ups fast for FOMO . Down the track potentially(due to overwhelming applications we have decided to expand our intake )

How many times have you seen the limited numbers , sign up now blurb or miss out that repeats months/years on end  . Bit like the rugsamillion discounts  

They may be legit , I am not convinced and neither should you be .

500 applications to become prop , if 20% sign up for mentoring that's a decent lick and virtually no risk , find a gem in the pile of gravel and take em on . Rock solid


----------



## Bearjangles (13 July 2017)

Far out... that's just free money isn't it. A 30min conversation per week.

I'm happy to offer a 40min package at the same price


----------



## Trembling Hand (13 July 2017)

Quant said:


> 500 applications to become prop , if 20% sign up for mentoring that's a decent lick and virtually no risk , find a gem in the pile of gravel and take em on . Rock solid



That is the prop model. To be fair I reckon it's worth a try from them to have a go at a different approach. Which is what they have said they wanted to do from the start. Traditionally the prop model is some vague interview process and then a promise of riches while you sit on a desk for 6-12 months earning absolutely nothing. For the 9 out of 10 in an intake that means racking up bro rebates for the firm and nothing for yourself but poverty points and a wasted year to put on your CV until you pull yourself out of the game, which is hard cuz you have just committed 1 year of your life. Or you blow out one night on an NFP release cuz you have been trading for 22 hours straight 4 nights in a row and made - $312.50 so go in full clip and hold while it gaps over your drop dead stop and does a 2 std div move against you. 

If you don't 'make it' thats a hell of a bigger cost than a few thoudy $$.


----------



## OmegaTrader (26 July 2017)

Hi again.

I thought I would add a bit more to this thread.

The automated job emails recently sent me this ad.



Trainee Proprietary Traders - Sydney

***Early August Intake***

Trading is more than just a job, it's a lifestyle. If you're looking for a cushy 9 to 5 then trading is definitely not for you.  If you want to be your own boss and run your own business in one of the most exciting industries on the planet, then read on.

To be a successful trader you need the right qualities: PASSION; SELF-DISCIPLINE; A GOOD HEAD FOR NUMBERS; COMPETITIVE SPIRIT; MENTAL STRENGTH; DETERMINATION; AND ENTREPRENEURIAL FLAIR.   Our best traders have all these qualities in spades.  

Genesis is a proprietary trading company.  Our traders work for themselves utilising our funding, state-of-the-art infrastructure, mentorship and support.

We want to grow our trader base with the best talent out there. So, our brand new program, the Genesis Trading Academy has been designed to take individuals on a journey from zero knowledge to live trading in just a few weeks.  

Our two part program starts with 4 weeks online where you get a taste of trading, starting with the basics and quickly moving on to more advanced concepts.  If you do well in Part 1, we'll invite you to our dedicated trading lab in Sydney for Part 2.  This six week intensive program is aimed at honing the skills you learned in Part 1 and using them to specialise in particular markets and strategies.

_NB: To complete Part 1 of the program you will need access to a private PC with Windows based software._

During the program we cover everything you need to kick-start your trading career. If you are successful, you may be offered a trading deal with Genesis.  We will back you financially and give you all the mentoring and support you need.

The program is hard and not for the faint-hearted.  It will require long hours, dedication and hard work.  We will totally immerse you in the world of trading and give you a world-class foundation on which to build your trading business.  

Remuneration is by way of a very competitive profit split arrangement.

We're looking for trainee traders for our Sydney trading floor so don't delay, places are limited!

*As part of the application process, you will be required to first complete an online form via our website, followed by a short, introductory online course and quiz. You can access this via the following link:*

*http://genesistrader.com.au/join-genesis-trading/*

*It is designed to give you a taste of our computer training program, and as usual, there is no cost.*

***Early August Intake***

*Right to live and work*

You must have the* right to live and work *in this location to apply for this job.

Be careful - Don't provide your bank or credit card details when applying for jobs. If you see something suspicious report this job ad.


----------



## OmegaTrader (26 July 2017)

Just a observation, no read into anything.
I have noticed that websites of props have tended ot get more slick, if that makes sense.
I don't know if that is purposeful or just a natural evolution of dealing mistakes+dealing with idiots.
Or maybe just the expeinece of the trainers like guy bower etc etc 
anyway

Just a couple quotes I thought interesting from the genesis website.

http://www.genesistrading.com.au/faq/ and the rest

*Operating hours.*
Dealing Room:
24hours

Office:
Monday-Friday. 9am-5pm

_* No visits without an appointment._


)

And this one

I'M A LAZY SOD. CAN I DO THIS?
No.

haahahah

Also a couple more

I LOVE FX. CAN I JUST TRADE THAT?
If you happen to be the best FX trader in the world, then you don’t need us. If your results to date aren’t fantastic, consider giving this a try. We trade futures for some very good reasons – and all of that is in the training.

WHAT ABOUT EXPERIENCED TRADERS?
Yes we take on experienced traders – and they do not need to do the training. Our definition of ‘experienced’ is one that has traded futures, particularly interest rates on a very active level. Other markets do not really qualify. If you need to discuss this, just contact us.


----------



## OmegaTrader (26 July 2017)

I like the idea of the online course, where the process is

quiz>online course 1 month> trainee 6weeks>

If successful then capital


> Part 1: The short online program above will qualify you to join our Online Training Program.
> Part 2: The Online Training Program runs for about 4 weeks. There is theory and trading exercises. It moves fast and packs a lot in. You need to do well at this to then join us in-house. You are helped and mentored along the way.
> Part 3: There is more training in-house where we look at more complex strategies and techniques. The early few weeks are on a trading simulator. Do well at this and we fund you as a professional trader.




It kind of reminds me when I was at ikea. They worked out, hey we can make people take their own dishes to the conveyor belt and save on labour. The same intellect used in tax planning hahah

Kind of like the mountain to Mohammed etc



> Part 1 – Online
> This initial part of the program runs online for four weeks and begins with the basics of trading, progressing quickly to more advanced concepts.
> 
> The training involves a mixture of simulated trading, online seminars, research projects and assessments. You will have access to a training specialist to guide and advise you along the way.
> ...




I am at the quiz stage and hope to do the online training program if accepted. The intake says august so idk if it is to late but anyway.

Cheers omega


----------



## sommi (5 October 2017)

CAUTION!!​*BECAREFUL ABOUT THE WEIGHT YOU PLACE ON ANYBODY'S OPINION IN THIS THREAD*

I have read this entire thread and these are shark infested waters. 

I know exactly who some of these dog c*nts are and EXACTLY where they are coming from, which firm they went to, and their incentives right now.

*I have had my personal material and trading strategies stolen and handed out to other kids around me to copy and make money. Do not follow the advice of any guru or trainer or anyone in this thread. 

Ask yourself this question before you suck off anyone in this thread, DO THEY HAVE ANY RECENT PERFORMANCE RESULTS TO VIEW?? CAN YOU SEE THEM??? 

You will find, EVERY SINGLE TIME, the answer is NO. 

Don't give these f*ckwits any of your money and don't give them your time. Look at the picture I have attached, there are 31 inbox pages of people who have been lead down the wrong path by personal people mentioned in the thread (and worse). 

This is a game of sharks and the schools of fish are not coming back in the same numbers they used to.*

My next post will answer some juicy questions and make some general comments


----------



## sommi (5 October 2017)

*Prop Model in Australia (Futures Trading)*

We were 10 years behind America's prop model. They stopped the 'bucket shop' style of ASX-rebate hiring a long, long time ago. It took a big downturn in 2006-2007 (the FED had to dramatically cut rates in 2007 and then it was game over for low-tier STIR and Bond strategies).

The way most shops in America run now appears to be like a "trading group". There is a lot more I.T. and Stats guys (quants), and you go into a firm and most likely get put with a group to start your research and work on strategies off basic models. Coding knowledge is required etc. A lot of the work seems to be back-testing, modelling, and more back-testing.

Of course, with more quants and filthy hands in the pie, it now has to get split more ways.

In Australia, the firms mentioned (StarBeta & Propex are the only ones I would call a trading firm) would probably gravitate towards this... eventually.

*Scalping in these markets *




The VIX is really low but this didn't stop profits from coming in back then. This is because simple strategies have been mined out with algorithms. Just like every business cycle has a vicious turn, prop trading is no different. When I started (just over 6 years ago), one of the most common strategies I saw was to sell the 3-yr bond when Aussie dollar went up 20-30 ticks with-in 5 minutes. This strategy worked like 80% of the time, no joke. It was that simple. And now you need to be a lot more wise with how you construct the trade.





The absolute value of interest rates are also so low that a 10% change in interest rates is only 15bp, where-as many years ago it would be 30-45 bp. So by this metric, the pie is now 50-65% smaller, and everyone is years wiser.

*Win-rates as a trainee
*
I can confirm from this thread, it's just like losing your virginity for the first time, the hole is lower than you think.

Win rate so far has been 0 to 1% for the past few years (nothing new).

You'll always hear it was easier back then... and it's always going to be. Game evolves, people adapt. The problem is that trainees are trying their hearts out *but don't know what they have to do to win*. I'll get to this later.

*Bankroll trading
*
I can confirm that most people surviving are indeed bankroll traders. This is a new concept to most trainees because it's conveniently never shared. Most people who can afford to sit back and trade small size, are indeed 'profitable' but by virtue of the nature of their bankroll.

*The hard part is getting the bankroll*. Most stories in this thread are people who came in at a generous time, worked hard and had great skill. There are many people who also did not make it and were crushed.

By virtue of (the lack of) fundamental repricing of Australia's Bonds and Equities, you'll find that most people are taking the other side of order flow and withstanding the heat. This is because they keep their risk profile at an acceptable level. And they are never really sweating because they came from tougher, more volatile times.

Myself as an example, just because I had a $165,000 month (from one strategy) doesn't mean I think it's worth having a PNL of -$100,000 in todays conditions in a certain market. However it's very easy to forecast people doing INSANELY great (it's a human psychology thing).

So if I am swinging a max heat of -$5,000 to -$10,000, sure it sucks but it's not the end of the world. But I am lucky because I can afford to do this. I can multiple this out by 5 markets but... that's literally working 5 times harder for 1/3rd of a month from the 'easier times'. 

There are other people with larger bankrolls who keep their size small. And those that don't keep their risk under control... tick-tock...

*What is a trainee to do?*

*Trainees are not taught the right questions to ask. *Your first question should be what I asked, "what the f*ck do I need to do to WIN?"

If you get told "hard work" then ignore that fraud and ask someone else.

*What a trainee needs to do to win;*

*1. Be taught a very simple basic framework of a market (example, Australian Yield Curve from Bills to 3yrs to 10yrs)*

*2. Be taught how to self-educate and research indicators and play around with settings to manipulate charts*

*3. Be told to research. How to research, and what to look for*

*4. Never click the button based on "gut feel" or "just having a go, mate"*

Unfortunately, the catch is... who is going to teach you a basic framework and for what reason? Find my posts on elitetrader, I go through the framework for free.

*Higher win-rates are the key to success - even if you have to take tail risk *
What I've found is that Outright trading usually takes on a win-rate of 30% up to 70%. If you can do spreads, and take wider profiles (averaging), you can bump your win rates to *75%-85%* (some months even *90%*). 

If you were given $500 stop as a Trainee, you should try to make $50 a day. With a $2,000 starting stop, I stopped when I was up $200-300 (scalping bonds). Also, I would stick to a 2 or 3 bullet system of trading. Start using 1-clip or 0.5-clip, and average slow. Remember what I said about the win rate...

It's up to you to do go through the charts and do research on what expected large range is. If you know how far it can go in the past year, then you now have informational edge over the next guy who is just trading his own system and "having a go".

*More markets*

I've been saying this for 1.5 years now and it's still true; the trend is... *the guys surviving (without blowing) are relying on higher probability/lower frequency trades.*

The difference between now and many years ago is that its simply not enough to just trade one market and know it back to front. 

If you can use the same 'language' to price other products, or other spreads, then you can create a war station of trades that can be taken when they appear. I don't use any algorithms, but I need them there now. They are very easy to beat because they're all playing the same game.

I've given you guys enough teet to suck on for now, so ask any questions 

*Final note
*
I currently back 2 traders from my own account. One is live already and is profitable from day 1. The other is ready to go live and will be profitable from the first month.

They learn everything off me and we trade together every day. They follow my instructions. It would be inhumane to expect someone to come in and create or innovate trading strategies in the lowest volatility since 1965.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any other way.


----------



## History Repeats (5 October 2017)

you on your own now or still with propex sommi?


----------



## sommi (5 October 2017)

History Repeats said:


> you on your own now or still with propex sommi?



Still there. But with some bankroll and doing all my research/strategy development at home, so I could be anywhere really.


----------



## History Repeats (5 October 2017)

sommi said:


> Still there. But with some bankroll and doing all my research/strategy development at home, so I could be anywhere really.




yeah i'm researching/learning spreading on the side, although Bone kinda style on Eurodollars. Enjoyed your thread on et.


----------



## OmegaTrader (5 October 2017)

sommi said:


> *Prop Model in Australia (Futures Trading)*
> 
> We were 10 years behind America's prop model. They stopped the 'bucket shop' style of ASX-rebate hiring a long, long time ago. It took a big downturn in 2006-2007 (the FED had to dramatically cut rates in 2007 and then it was game over for low-tier STIR and Bond strategies).
> 
> ...




I don't have anything to add except 

thank you


----------



## OmegaTrader (17 October 2017)

Something that popped up in the inbox.

Apparently those seek ads cost a bit,more of a public profile.

The interview process will involve a one month trial on a simulator trading cryptocurrency futures.

interesting

*Trainee Proprietary Trader*
Star Beta is Australia's most innovative proprietary trading firm led by a young and dynamic team. Our founders have trained and mentored hundreds of traders and have had unparalleled success in converting trainees into highly profitable traders in a relatively short space of time.

At Star Beta we believe in nurturing young talent. We do this by combining tried and tested training techniques with cutting edge technology. We also break from tradition by allowing new starters to develop their own systemised and automated trading strategies from the outset.

Our focus is on getting you profitable as quickly as possible. We do this by sharing our knowledge and helping you devise both outright and relative value strategies that you completely understand and believe in from the start.

The interview process will involve a one month trial on a simulator trading cryptocurrency futures. Those who show natural trading ability and genuine motivation will be invited in for an interview.

No professional trading experience is necessary however candidates must be able to demonstrate a passion for the financial markets and an entrepreneurial spirit. If this sounds like you please visit our website www.starbeta.com.au and apply through our New Talent page. 


https://www.seek.com.au/job/34651092


----------



## mjim (21 January 2018)

OmegaTrader said:


> Something that popped up in the inbox.
> 
> Apparently those seek ads cost a bit,more of a public profile.
> 
> ...



"..No professional trading experience is necessary" so what is involved in getting selected? Have own strategy? back real records? software skills? Education in Fin markets?  any clues?


----------



## OmegaTrader (21 January 2018)

mjim said:


> "..No professional trading experience is necessary" so what is involved in getting selected? Have own strategy? back real records? software skills? Education in Fin markets?  any clues?




I think this is for a trainee role/path not an experienced trader. The best thing would to go to the horses mouth. I know sometimes an unmoulded trainee can be seen as better.


Obviously the  spread trading is the main modus operandi of these discretionary prop shops. A bit ahead of the curve with the crypto's training/exposure etc. 

I am seeing alot of these bitcoin trader wanted ads even on seek. I wonder how long these pure cyrpto based firms last if/when  the bubble implodes.

I remember  a quote somewhere saying so you're an expert on crypto, yeah i have traded for 6-12 months.. you know

kind of crazy isn't it


----------



## CanOz (22 January 2018)

Apparently the prop shops are getting into this big, and they're making a killing like the old days! See my post in the crypto thread....


----------



## mjim (22 January 2018)

CanOz said:


> Apparently the prop shops are getting into this big, and they're making a killing like the old days! See my post in the crypto thread....



so if they have the secret sauce / edge why do they need manual traders? can't they just hire software people , automate the strategy and move on ! specially since the business model is not based on selling  training! .. I cant fathom this


----------



## OmegaTrader (23 February 2018)

TradeDesk spots are open!

We have had good success with our in-house TradeDesk program, where we offer infrastructure/hosting services for traders of all types looking for a professional trading environment.

For $699.95 a month (inc GST) you will be provided with 24/7 access to our offices in West Perth. A dedicated desk, PC, screen setup, dedicated fibre line with backup, squawk services, and most importantly an environment where you are around traders around the clock.

Trading is NOT easy. Trading is NOT a quick way to make bank. Trading is very competitive and extremely difficult. But it is easier in a TEAM environment.


The competitive non-pro trader, sitting at home in their underpants, on their own, making $$ IS A MYTH!


Do you want to be a statistic? Do you want to waste TIME, the most vital commodity you have?

Prop firm traders dont know more than the Average Joe. They just have a highly competitive environment where the rising tide lifts all the boats.



If interested please send an enquiry to trading@cygnettrading.com.au


----------



## minwa (23 February 2018)

_*"The competitive non-pro trader, sitting at home in their underpants, on their own, making $$ IS A MYTH!"*
_
That's odd. I know more successful home traders than prop traders.


----------



## Modest (25 February 2018)

Churn and burn


----------



## OmegaTrader (25 February 2018)

Modest said:


> Churn and burn




Just for jokes...

*Burn and Churn*
To make more trades on a discretionary account in order to inflate commissions, rather than client profits. That is,burning and churning occurs when a broker makes unnecessary trades on an account for his/her own profit, rather than the client's. Burning and churning is illegal.

https://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/burn+and+churn


hahahha

oh incentives


----------



## hedgedhog (27 February 2018)

mjim said:


> so if they have the secret sauce / edge why do they need manual traders? can't they just hire software people , automate the strategy and move on ! specially since the business model is not based on selling  training! .. I cant fathom this




They are doing both. Both quants and manual traders on it. The market is inefficient enough right now to take a huge number of junior traders who do nothing more than look at charts all day so they want to squeeze every last dollar out of the market.


----------



## OmegaTrader (1 September 2018)

Has anyone heard of these guys?
https://www.stfcap.com


Part time Trader/Trader Internship
STF Capital - Sydney NSW
Apply Now
Save this job
Part-time, Contract, Internship
Requirement:
Minimum bachelor degree with backgrounds in Finance, Mathematics, Statistics, Engineering or Computer
Science
Interested in financial markets, self-motivated, hardworking and passionate
High level of tenacity and the ability to solve problems effectively
Able to work individually or as a part of the team
No strict requirement on experience, training will be provided
Proven track record if apply as an experienced trader
Reward:
Highly attractive base salary plus bonus
Extensive experience in financial market
Certificate for the internship experience
Job Types: Part-time, Internship, Contract
Salary: $5,000.00 to $50,000.00 /year
Education:
Bachelor Degree (Required)
Language:
Mandarin (Preferred)


----------



## OmegaTrader (19 September 2018)

FOREX TRADERS

Cygnet Trading is now able to accept applications from Forex Traders!

If you're a consistently profitable forex trader and feel that some extra funding and guidance is all you need to take your trading to the next level, then contact us now to find out if we're able to help.

Please send your enquiry to trading@cygnettrading.com.au


----------



## scholesy (16 December 2018)

Must watch:


----------

