# Bible Verse of the Day



## David123 (12 August 2008)

Hey All! When i can i would like to share a Bible Verse with you each Day...

So heres Todays!

JOHN 3:16 NIV

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


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## robots (12 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey All! When i can i would like to share a Bible Verse with you each Day...
> 
> So heres Todays!
> 
> ...




hello,

great stuff david, its wonderful people can have such open beliefs in this great country

thankyou
robots


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## nunthewiser (12 August 2008)

haleluiah and yes im a real nun


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## numbercruncher (12 August 2008)

[Rev 19:11] 



> And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


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## 2020hindsight (12 August 2008)

First reference to hotrods in the Bible 



> And Moses burned up the desert in his triumph


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## AussiePaul72 (12 August 2008)

Well done David! Keep it up .......

Its easy to get dis-heartened with the market but ultimately it doesn't really matter in the long run .... as material treasures here on earth aren't important! 

What is important is that each and every one of us have a Father that loves us so much that he sent his only son to die a physical death so that we may have eternal life. Thanks so much Dad


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## creditscore (12 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey All! When i can i would like to share a Bible Verse with you each Day...
> 
> So heres Todays!
> 
> ...




thanx for sharing this david...

i remember the song sang by a famous singer here in our country when pope john paul visited our country...

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, 
Jesus Christ our savior......."


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## 2020hindsight (12 August 2008)

Probably what GW Bush was reading before he attacked Iraq  :-



> Jeremiah > Chapter 46
> 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of
> vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword
> shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood:
> ...


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## nunthewiser (12 August 2008)

heres one for religeon...........http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html


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## Wysiwyg (12 August 2008)

Hello, i think it`s considerate to let people have their thread not trashed.There are other threads relating to religion that are open for discussion regarding beliefs.

Although it`s hard, please show some respect however hypocritical.

Thanks.


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## wayneL (12 August 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Hello, i think it`s considerate to let people have their thread not trashed.There are other threads relating to religion that are open for discussion regarding beliefs.
> 
> Although it`s hard, please show some respect however hypocritical.
> 
> Thanks.



Indeed.

You don't have to believe it, but you don't have to mock it either (it says negative things about your character... ergo, no surprises as to who turns up here to do so)

"Do unto others..." etc.


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## Trader Paul (13 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey All! When i can i would like to share a Bible Verse with you each Day...
> 
> So heres Todays!
> 
> ...




Nice work, David ... and here's one for today:

Matthew 3:16-17 NIV ... the Trinity lives:

Mt 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water.
At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God 
descending like a dove and lighting on him. 

Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said,
“This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”


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## nioka (13 August 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> heres one for religeon...........http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html




Heres, do you mean here is or here's. You also spell religion RELIGION not religeon. ( constructive criticism required on this thread please.)


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## nunthewiser (13 August 2008)

LOL how pedantic , have a noice day champ
i take it my link was not acceptable in a thread concerning religeon ?


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## Porper (13 August 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Although it`s hard, please show some respect however hypocritical.





I agree, not good to mock, but if people want to throw religion at us (ADVERTISING) then they should expect some flack.

The fact is religion is the main cause for hatred in the world, and the biggest cause of war ever.

Not to mention all the priests convicted, accused of molestation.

The bible is only a book after all.Absolutely no proof a God exists, and it highly probable there is no such thing.


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## Hatchy (13 August 2008)

nioka said:


> Heres, do you mean here is or here's. You also spell religion RELIGION not religeon. ( constructive criticism required on this thread please.)




Whilst I have a strong faith, I too, nioka, believe in proper spelling and grammar. 

Onwards and Upwards


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## rossw (13 August 2008)

From Gensis 10

9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; that is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD."


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## nunthewiser (13 August 2008)

yes , i apologise for my bad grammar and spelling mistakes for taking the focus of this thread, i do hope that ppl can move on from this and post some really great quotes instead , i will endeavour to better myself and type with prowess and righteousness and not let the big picture ever get in the way again , i sincerely thank you for clouding up the negativitive views posted here regarding the preach fest occuring and please use my grammar skills as a smokescreen anytime you wish .

regards a.nun


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## Hatchy (13 August 2008)

Porper said:


> I agree, not good to mock, but if people want to throw religion at us (ADVERTISING) then they should expect some flack.
> 
> The fact is religion is the main cause for hatred in the world, and the biggest cause of war ever.
> 
> ...





If religion didn't advertise - you would complain that it was exclusive! 

There's a lot more people without beliefs that murder, rape, molest - does that mean that I should argue that all people should believe in a God? 
People are the main cause of hatred in the world - Religion is just the vehicle people blame. 

I would like to point out that faith and belief is separate from 'religion'. 

Arguably the worlds largest war - WWII - was that due to religion? Why did the japanese fight, was that due to religion? Why did Hitler do what he did, was that due to religion or a deep seeded perversion of right and wrong? The current wars in Iraq - isn't that an islamist war? We're not taking verses from the Koran here. Russia V Georgia - the very much most recent conflict - is that to do with religion? The raging civil wars the world over, particularly africa, is that to do with religion? 

Throw wild accusations in a thread that is not meant to be anything other than encouragement to people that do believe the bible is more than a book and expect some flack to be thrown your way as well. Get a grip.


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## wayneL (13 August 2008)

Let's have a Tao Te Ching verse of the day instead.

Lao Tzu was just an old fart on a hill not trying to control anyone or prove anything:

_True words aren't beautiful,
Beautiful words aren't true.
Wise men don't need to prove a point,
Men who need to prove a point aren't wise._


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## Porper (13 August 2008)

Hatchy said:


> Get a grip.




Hatchy, thanks you have just proven a point.

You do not like it when  people point out  there is no such thing as "God" (whichever of the particular ones you are brain washed on).It rather puts your various factual points in perspective.
Hitler obviously loved the Jews then ?

Anyway you lot are quite good at drawing people into talking about religion to put your beliefs across, so I will let you get on with your "recruitment", unfortunately I won't be one of your disciples but I am sure you will con some on here.I won't be drawn to post on this thread again.


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## nunthewiser (13 August 2008)

im sorry porper but you have it all wrong m8 . this thread is all about correct grammar and flashing it around when the going gets tough , ps i am thinking of writing a book and recruiting members from forums across the nation based on my writings in said book , u intrested in helping and starting a commune ?


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## Sean K (13 August 2008)

wayneL said:


> Let's have a Tao Te Ching verse of the day instead.
> 
> Lao Tzu was just an old fart on a hill not trying to control anyone or prove anything:
> 
> ...



Amen. 

Why did we think this would go down this path.....


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## Julia (13 August 2008)

I'm not remotely interested in the Bible, but I don't know why we can't let people share their Bible verses if they are so inclined without feeling the need to challenge them in this thread.

As has already been pointed out there is a Religion thread where those of us who feel annoyed about religion can let fly.

A bit of the old cliche 'live and let live' isn't such a bad thing.


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## nomore4s (13 August 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> im sorry porper but you have it all wrong m8 . this thread is all about correct grammar and flashing it around when the going gets tough , ps i am thinking of writing a book and recruiting members from forums across the nation based on my writings in said book , u intrested in helping and starting a commune ?




lol, just make sure you use spell check, or maybe get nioka to proof read it:

Also agree with Julia.


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## nioka (13 August 2008)

nomore4s said:


> lol, just make sure you use spell check, or maybe get nioka to proof read it:.




Don't count on me for a spell check. Spelling is not one of my strong points. I used it as an example to ask for constructive and not destructive criticism on this thread.


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## pepperoni (13 August 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> heres one for religeon...........http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html




Moral to story: without god we were just another animal poking at its orifices ;-).

At least from that it looks like it got us off our asses ... even the muslim "jihad" means somethingmuch more like "get off your lazy ass and do something" than "kill whitey".

Anyway you want to make an omlet you gotta break a few eggs.


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## 2020hindsight (14 August 2008)

speaking of quotes from other religions,   and even of "jihad", I'm sure there are as many quotes from the Koran about "love" as there are of "vengeance".  Very similar to the Bible really.   My point back there (post #8) was that (imo) you have to beware of quoting (or taking) the Bible (or the Koran) literally.


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## David123 (14 August 2008)

Hey all! 
          The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.

Todays verse is Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Godbless


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## 2020hindsight (14 August 2008)

David et al 
you might enjoy this email I received from a Christian friend.  
concept of forgiveness etc.
Personally it makes too many references to the devil for my liking. 

PS As for the comparison of Koran and Bible, they both effectively share some or most of the Old Testament (as I understand it).   In the case of the Bible, the New Testament tones that down a bit, with less talk of violence etc. (yes ?) 

PS I don't expect I'll go to heaven.  Then again, lol, I don't expect I'll go to hell either  



> There was a little boy visiting his grandparents on their farm. He was given a slingshot to play with out in the woods. He practiced in the woods, but he could never hit the target. Getting a little discouraged, he headed back for dinner.
> 
> As he was walking back he saw Grandma's pet duck. Just out of impulse, he let the slingshot fly, hit the duck square in the head and killed it. He was shocked and grieved! In a panic, he hid the dead duck in the wood pile, only to see his sister watching!
> 
> ...


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## spooly74 (14 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.




Grow Up!

Does it give you pleasure to think that somebody, who for the unimaginable crime of not believing in your version of God should suffer eternally?

Eternity is just a concept ...eternal heaven or eternal both suck, as do you!


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## Wysiwyg (14 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.
> Godbless




Please stick to thread title.Nasty threats and barbs show you up  as a poor example of a human being human.

Thank you.


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## tcoates (14 August 2008)

Rather than hell and damnation, how about a couple of more user-friendly (?) verses...



All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.


John 6:37 


 Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.




Romans 15:7 

Tim (an Anglican)


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## wayneL (14 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.



This is where you Christians absolutely lose any goodwill. It's nonsense.

You broke the code implicit on this thread; you turned it from a "quote of the day" to "proselytism via fear". 

Therefore you can expect some strong opposition to your brainwashed doctrinal BS.


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## nunthewiser (14 August 2008)

FIRE AND BRIMSTONE RUN TO THE HILLS I TELLS YA RUN!!!!


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## wayneL (14 August 2008)

tcoates said:


> Rather than hell and damnation, how about a couple of more user-friendly (?) verses...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good show Tim,

This thread could be fun if folks stick to this sort of thing... positive stuff.


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## tcoates (14 August 2008)

Admit that he started this thread, but its a bit much to tar all Christians with the same brush?!?



wayneL said:


> This is where you Christians absolutely lose any goodwill. It's nonsense.
> 
> You broke the code implicit on this thread; you turned it from a "quote of the day" to "proselytism via fear".
> 
> Therefore you can expect some strong opposition to your brainwashed doctrinal BS.




Tim


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## wayneL (14 August 2008)

tcoates said:


> Admit that he started this thread, but its a bit much to tar all Christians with the same brush?!?
> 
> 
> 
> Tim



No it's not fair. Apologies.

Some of my best friends are Christians and are fine and sincere folks.

Cheers


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## Julia (14 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.



David, I have previously defended your right to have this thread, even though I have no interest in the Bible.  I believe strongly in the right of people to whatever beliefs they find helpful as long as they don't hurt others.

But you have lost my support with the above unpleasant admonition.

I very much dislike being threatened and I imagine some of your fellow Christians will be somewhat saddened that you are perpetuating the image of Christians as fear-mongering fundamentalists.


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## derty (14 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey All! When i can i would like to share a Bible Verse with you each Day...
> 
> So heres Todays!
> 
> ...






David123 said:


> Hey all!
> The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.



lol, when the original poster, under the guise of good will, leads off with a cranker like this, this thread is doomed.

Talk about clichÃ©.


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## Whiskers (15 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.




Not very 'Christian' language at all, David.

But you conclude with... 



> Godbless




What do you suppose Godbless means?

Unfortunately, much of above is taken literally as intolerance of non christians, but there is near to nothing in the bible that specifically teaches _tolerance_... but the following will surfice as todays verse.

*1 Corinthians *10:31-32   "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:"


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## Sean K (15 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.



Hahahaha, Nice work David. 

You've opened the flood gates now. 

Good luck.


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## noirua (15 August 2008)

I new it was alright to make money.  Or is it?:  http://www.scripturemenu.com/BibleVerseList.html?topicid=22

The blessing of the Lord makes Rich, and he adds no sorrow with it. Proverbs 10:22


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## YOUNG_TRADER (15 August 2008)

wayneL said:


> This is where you Christians absolutely lose any goodwill. It's nonsense.
> 
> You broke the code implicit on this thread; you turned it from a "quote of the day" to "proselytism via fear".
> 
> Therefore you can expect some strong opposition to your brainwashed doctrinal BS.




All Hail the king of the BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Sean K (15 August 2008)

God seems to have quite a few personaility faults, as I have read in the bible.

Let's start counting them down.

*Genocidal and Regretful God*:

Genesis: 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


And, I'm still not sure how the beasts, the fowls, and the creeping thing deserved to die, when it was the humans who had been very naughty. 

Oh well, might as well just kill everything, eh? Nice one.


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## tcoates (15 August 2008)

Kennas,

Please do not go down that road and it will (?) only serve into the hands of those you are arguing against - that is, looking for a written argument. And yes, that is a verse from the bible. But one could also ask the question about how much of Genesis is actual fact, but the meaning behind that verse is that sin affects everyone, and in that case the whole world. 

Would be fair to say that for every verse you find to show a "personality fault" one could be found to show the opposite. 

Tim

From 1 Corinthians

4 Love is patient and kind; 
it is not jealous or conceited or proud; 
5 love is not ill-mannered or selfish or irritable; 
love does not keep a record of wrongs; 
6 love is not happy with evil, but is happy with the truth. 
7 Love never gives up; and its faith, hope, and patience never fail.
8 Love is eternal.

and

Luke 6

31 "Do for other people everything you'd like them to do for you.


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## 2020hindsight (15 August 2008)

kennas said:


> And, I'm still not sure how the beasts, the fowls, and the creeping thing deserved to die,... .




pffft - 

you gotta smile.
(PS even the Christians have gotta smile surely )


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## Sean K (15 August 2008)

tcoates said:


> Kennas,
> 
> Please do not go down that road and it will (?) only serve into the hands of those you are arguing against - that is, looking for a written argument. And yes, that is a verse from the bible. But one could also ask the question about how much of Genesis is actual fact, but the meaning behind that verse is that sin affects everyone, and in that case the whole world.



Yes, you are probably right, I've been dragged into the gutter. 

Interesting comment about Genesis. You are saying some of Genesis is true? Or, it's all made up and just a parable or metaphor?


Let's hope that Deuteronomy isn't very factual, but I have pause that some of it is actually true.

"Next we headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his army attacked us at Edrei.  But the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land.  Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.'  So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all.  We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan.  These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates.  We also took many unwalled villages at the same time.  We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike.  But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns."   (Deuteronomy 3:1-7)


I'm not sure what message to take from that one....

But of course, this is the Old Testament, and not anything to do with Christianity and Jesus's loving and kindness. Lots of nice quotes in the New Testament. But is that a real story like The Old Testament, or is it too just metaphor and fairytale? Most modern people pick and choose from the Bible I suppose, and the stuff they don't agree with stays tucked away. Selective Christianity. Ah, a new religion perhaps! Lets just take all the good stuff out of the books dedicated to the Cults of Abraham and make a religion that suits us in this modern age of computers, and mobile telephones, and laws, and telescopes, and stuff. In an age when the earth is a globe and we go around the sun. I'm on it! 

Keep quoting all the nice stuff by the way, and just ignore the other bits you don't like.

I won't upset this thread anymore.


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## nomore4s (15 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all! The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.




lol, so if I don't believe in your God I will perish in eternal hell?

Surely the churchs have grown past this sort of crap to try to "convert" people. And if that's the way your God needs to lord over his people I don't want to have anything to do with him or his churchs. Your God sounds like a dictator to me, believe or suffer forever(akin to torture really).

Anyway as I don't believe in your God, I don't believe in your hell, so not really sure how it's meant to scare me into believing


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## tcoates (15 August 2008)

Kennas,

On the old testament see 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/298

"Liberal theologians generally have dismissed the historicity of miraculous events, considering them to be the mythological interpretations of natural incidents by two ancient communities: Israel and the early church. Such an approach suggests that the Bible expresses how its authors perceived events, but does not necessarily reflect how they actually happened
Not sure if you will follow the links presented here. And I should note that I am a mere lay person in an Anglican church, so by no means an authority, but..."

Matthew Henry (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Henry) wrote volumes on the bible, on the text in Deuteronomy you mention below) would be best if I refered to you

http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=de&chapter=003

(from that page " intimating that they ought to be encouraged by   their former victory to trust in God for another victory, for he is   God, and changeth not" and "Their conquering and possessing these countries was intended, not only   for the encouragement of Israel in the wars of Canaan, but for the   satisfaction of Moses before his death")

Tim


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## David123 (15 August 2008)

Hey all! 

Fear God Because -Romans 2:6 "He will judge everyone according to what they have done"!

Believe In God Because - Romans 3:22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

Godbless!


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## bunyip (15 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> The Verse from two days ago says it all! You either believe in God or you dont! If you choose not to well, you will perish in eternal hell!.
> 
> Todays verse is Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
> ...





_With regard to your 'perish in eternal hell quote'......_

You clearly have some growing up to do. In matters of religion and Christianity you exhibit all the symptoms of some poor brainwashed person whose lost the ability and desire to think for himself.
You're naive enough to believe that if it's written in the bible, then it must be true. 
You do little to enhance the image of Christians and Christianity.
You deserve plenty of  flak for what Wayne has correctly labelled 'your doctrinal BS.'


_Regarding your second quote about the grave........._

Really? So once we get to the grave, that's the end of the line eh? Well, I'm inclined to agree with you. But it kind of contradicts the much vaunted theory of eternal life that you Christians and your bible like to bandy around, doesn't it?
Still, I guess we shouldn't expect any less from the book that has almost made contradiction and hypocrisy into art forms.

For your next biblical quote, how about giving us one of the really impressive ones, such as 'If your son gets drunk you should take him outside the city gates and stone him to death'.
Or do you intend to just give us the nice quotes, with an odd scary one tossed in that's designed to intimidate us into submitting to your brainwashed Christian doctrine?


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## Hatchy (15 August 2008)

I have an idea!
Everyone abandon the I don't agree with Christians lines and all those on the other side abandon the 'you're all doomed' lines and lets just leave this thread as Bible verse of the day. 

No that's never going to work, no matter what because there's always people against people, and for some reason those with beliefs try to make those without feel bad instead of loved and vice versa. Interesting take on what Christianity is, but far far from it's intention... 

Those who have a bible, read numbers 1 and learn a lesson about conflict resolution. Maybe that could be the passage for the weekend? 

Have a good weekend. 

p.s.
The lesson is to take a time out before things run out of hand.


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## mobcat (15 August 2008)

All getting a bit out of hand really ......check this out quite interesting really suits me because i cant spell

fi yuo cna raed tihs, yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too 




Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can. 

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!


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## Whiskers (15 August 2008)

That's good mobcat. I heard that too... and I read your post just about as easily as if it was spelled properly.

But, what's that got to do with the Bible verse of the day? ... nah don't worry about that, this was more interesting. :


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## bunyip (16 August 2008)

Hatchy said:


> I have an idea!
> Everyone abandon the I don't agree with Christians lines and all those on the other side abandon the 'you're all doomed' lines and lets just leave this thread as Bible verse of the day.
> 
> No that's never going to work, no matter what because there's always people against people, and for some reason those with beliefs try to make those without feel bad instead of loved and vice versa. Interesting take on what Christianity is, but far far from it's intention...
> ...




Thing is, dire warnings, intimidation, threats, endorsement and promotion of murder and cruelty, and all sorts of other nasty stuff, are part and parcel of biblical quotes.
If someone is going to quote the bible, and he/she quotes it 'across the board' rather than just quoting the nicer parts, then invariably there will be some rather controversial quotes put forward that invoke disgust, anger and outrage from various people. And when people are disgusted, angered or outraged, we can't realistically expect them to keep quiet and not say or do anything about it.

Apart from that, the objective of public forums is to encourage discussion, debate, and comment on a wide range of issues. The Christian contingent among us should not expect to be able to just post their biblical quotes, without generating some discussion about those quotes. Nor should they be surprised if some of their more controversial quotes ruffle a few feathers.


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## tcoates (16 August 2008)

bunyip said:


> Apart from that, the objective of public forums is to encourage discussion, debate, and comment on a wide range of issues. The Christian contingent among us should not expect to be able to just post their biblical quotes, without generating some discussion about those quotes. Nor should they be surprised if some of their more controversial quotes ruffle a few feathers.




No problem with debate, but if a poster label the Bible as crap or BS or "any other term" without any real justification or explanation then it labels anyone else that might/does read the Bible either foolish or extreme. On the opposite side, a verse without explanation (for the controversial stuff at least) is equally foolish.

There are literally (?) hundreds of topics in the Bible from MURDER, to LUST to LOVE and GIVING and ADULTERY to name but few. But the text, quoted or otherwise, also needs to be understood in the context of when it was written.

A simple example, in the Bible doves were used as an offering (sacrific):

In Lev 1:14 "And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off its head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be drained out on the side of the altar."

This was a law in those days for these people (in the Old Testament). How many Christian priests practice the above in todays society? But (could be argued) as a historical (broadly speaking) record so give meaning to the text in the New Testament.

I cannot explain the bad in the World, the typical argument "how can this (war/flood/famine/etc.) happen in (insert place name here)?

In the end you fall into four categories:

a) treat what is written in the Bible literally.

b) believe in what you read, based on knowing when it was written, the context it was written in, and whether/how it applies today.

c) do not believe anything written in the Bible and impossible argue with/against.

d) somewhere between b) and c) and open to reasonable discussion.

Tim


----------



## bunyip (16 August 2008)

tcoates said:


> No problem with debate, but if a poster label the Bible as crap or BS or "any other term" without any real justification or explanation then it labels anyone else that might/does read the Bible either foolish or extreme. On the opposite side, a verse without explanation (for the controversial stuff at least) is equally foolish.
> 
> Tim




That's fair comment, Tim.
So it's hardly surprising that David123 is seen as foolish or extreme for telling us that we'll burn in hell if our views about God happen to be different to the Christian view.


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## Garpal Gumnut (16 August 2008)

Just in case you bible guys and gals implode there is a koran thread (moi) which will iron out any of the disbelieving doubts you might have.

gg


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## David123 (18 August 2008)

Hey All! How great is our God!

Philippians 4:13 (New Living Translation)


" For I can do everything through Christ, who gives me strength"

Godbless!


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 August 2008)

I mentioned Thoreau elsewhere (turns out David Thoreau was another Dead Sea Scroll academic) -  but I was really thinking of this lady :- Barbara Thiering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Thiering



> Barbara Thiering (born 1930) is an Australian writer. In books and journal articles she has attempted to challenge Christian orthodoxy, drawing on claimed new evidence that gives alternative answers to its supernatural beliefs. Her analysis has been rejected by many scholars in the field.
> 
> *From her speciality, the Dead Sea Scrolls, she has developed the argument that the miracles, including the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection, were not just legends as critical scholars hold, but were deliberately manufactured myths.*
> 
> ...




controversially received etc ...



> "Professor Barbara Thiering's reinterpretation of the New Testament, in which the married, divorced, and remarried Jesus, father of four, becomes the "Wicked Priest" of the Dead Sea Scrolls, has made no impact on learned opinion. Scroll scholars and New Testament experts alike have found the basis of the new theory, Thiering's use of the so-called "pesher technique", without substance."




still, you have to ask yourself why the DSS, discovered as they were in 1947, still haven't been (fully) translated and made available-in-full (?)

PS to be honest I was more interested in her theory (as I recall it from an ABC doco in 1990) of Judas being the man of action, (i.e. to take on the Romans where possible etc),  and Jesus putting forward the counter-argument that forgivenss lead to strength etc.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Dead+Sea+Scrolls+Thiering&search_type=&aq=-1&oq=


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## wayneL (19 August 2008)

There are a multitude of scholars with alternative theories on the life of Jesus. 

Each is interesting and well researched. All of those that don't make you smirk because logical fallacy, make a case for the humanity (i.e. non-divinity) of Jesus.

All great reads.

As an allegorical testament to actually impossibility knowing very much about the historical Jesus, read Bill Bryson's book on Shakespeare.

Enlightening in a parallel universe sort of way.


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## David123 (19 August 2008)

Hey all! 
Isaiah 55:7 (New Living Translation)




  Let the wicked change their ways
      and banish the very thought of doing wrong.
   Let them turn to the Lord that he may have mercy on them.
      Yes, turn to our God, for he will forgive generously.




Godbless!


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## David123 (20 August 2008)

Hey all! 

Matthew 7:7

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Godbless!


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## David123 (24 August 2008)

Hey all! 

Hope you all went to church!

Hebrews 11:6 (New Living Translation)

 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.


Thankyou Lord!

Godbless!


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## wayneL (24 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> 
> Hope you all went to church!





Going to church has very little to do with faith David.

...and only a God created in Man's image would be displeased with people not going there.

_On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: (the parable starts here) "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."_

That Samaritan never went to church.
_
Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise._

That criminal never went to any church.

_Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do_

I doubt those Roman soldiers did either.

In fact, I can't think of anywhere where it says you have to go to church. You should understand that the church in its current form was designed to control people.



> Godbless!




Anyone who sputters out the extraneous crap you have so far doesn't truly mean that. Think about it, your God would not be pleased.


----------



## wayneL (24 August 2008)

> 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
> 
> 33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.



That didn't quite work out, did it? Last time I looked is was Netenyahoo or someone like that.



> 28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.



They must be pretty old by now... or maybe that didn't quite come off either?



> 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;



Oops, a few folks have croaked trying that one.


----------



## wayneL (24 August 2008)

> 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
> 
> 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
> 
> Galatians 1:8-9




Clearly Saul had an ego problem. An angel will be accursed if it contradicts Saul of Tarsus? LOL

So much of the NT is based on this nutter.


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## wayneL (24 August 2008)

> 1 Corinthians 11:3-10 (King James Version)
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> Public Domain
> ...



Don't see too many hats in church .... or women with shaved heads!

LOL


----------



## nunthewiser (24 August 2008)

Dont look like you goin to heaven wayne


----------



## wayneL (24 August 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> Dont look like you goin to heaven wayne




I'm sure "nice" christian folk would gleefully consign my soul to hell.

By the way, it seem that only 144,000 virgin men make it anyway.



> Revelation 14
> 
> 1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having *his* Father's name written in their foreheads.
> 
> ...




All this being good and tithing and confessions and stuff is all futile once indulging in a bit of moonyah. Women shouldn't even bother by the looks of it.


----------



## nunthewiser (24 August 2008)

*wonders* if i profess myself to be a born again virgin would i qualify for them pearly gates ?


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## Julia (24 August 2008)

David, when I read this stuff you post, all these verses from the Bible, I can't help wondering what sort of everyday life you lead.   What do you do to actually demonstrate the love of the God you believe in?  How do you help your fellow human beings?

You may well be a model of the ideal citizen, or just possibly you may be too busy reading the Bible and telling the rest of us we are going to Hell because we don't go to Church.

You don't have to tell us, of course, but it would sure be interesting.


----------



## Duckman#72 (25 August 2008)

wayneL said:


> Going to church has very little to do with faith David.
> 
> In fact, I can't think of anywhere where it says you have to go to church. You should understand that the church in its current form was designed to control people.
> 
> Think about it, your God would not be pleased.




At the risk of standing in between a religious zealot and a bunch of atheists calling for blood...........your comment was quite bizarre Wayne. For someone that is usually so logical and knowledgable with their arguments I can't believe that it slipped out. 

For those following Christian religions, "going to Church" remains a central part of their "Faith". It is front and centre of all mainsteam Christian beliefs.

Unfortunately there is not a Book of Wayne that says...."And the Lord said to Wayne, tell all humankind to go to Church on Sunday, even during the Olympics".....but then again even if there was something as clear as this would you believe it?? That is the fundamental argument here - believers and non-believers. 

A comment was made earlier in the thread that the poster was happy to support a Bible Verse of the Day thread. However that view quickly changed. Reading between the lines, it seems people are only happy to support a "Non-Confrontational, Non-Offensive, Nice, Happy, Uplifting Bible Verse of Day" thread.

I am not a religious nut and believe everyone should be entitled to their own point of view but I also believe that Christians by the very nature of their faith are easy targets - their core values are openly on display. It is much harder to criticise Atheists for their behaviour as there are no structured common values.....except for the commonly trotted out, hand on my heart..."but I'm a nice person". 

You're a smart fellow Wayne - what do you get from constantly poking the stick at the religious dog (except your own amusement)?  

Duckman


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## Sean K (25 August 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> A comment was made earlier in the thread that the poster was happy to support a Bible Verse of the Day thread. However that view quickly changed. Reading between the lines, it seems people are only happy to support a "Non-Confrontational, Non-Offensive, Nice, Happy, Uplifting Bible Verse of Day" thread.
> 
> Duckman



Hi Duckman, 

I think we were all happy for it to be a nice fluffy quote of the day to make us all feel good, and provide some inspiration to maintain our outstanding ASF values and morals, but a line was crossed.

Telling people they would go to hell for not following what the Good Book tells us, and slyly ordering us all off to church, deserves full mobilisation of the Athiestic Battlestar ASF.....

I have held back from slapping up all the incredibly poor moral behaviour that the Cults of Abraham lay down as a path to heaven, but am now inclined to move to the gun line and drop a few rounds down range myself...

kennas

(Stanton for PM )


----------



## Duckman#72 (25 August 2008)

kennas said:


> (Stanton for PM )




No worries Kennas. He's a beauty isn't he!!! 

What are we arguing for? We are the same denomination.


----------



## noirua (25 August 2008)

It is a debatable point, in certain countries, as to whether there are more people who believe in God and have no religion, than there are people who believe in God and have a religion.

Perhaps there is a time now for many to join a new religion that has no churches nor any rules or regulations, no priests etc. That would then give them a chance to say to others that your religion just does not stand up, and I can believe in god without one.


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## tcoates (25 August 2008)

> What are we arguing for? We are the same denomination



Really? 

Surprised how many would know the difference between a 7th Day Adventist vs Catholic vs Mormon in their beliefs (in/from the Bible)

Tim

PS. And which faith is David123 from?


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## Sean K (25 August 2008)

tcoates said:


> Really?
> 
> Surprised how many would know the difference between a 7th Day Adventist vs Catholic vs Mormon in their beliefs (in/from the Bible)
> 
> ...



LOL. 

Common denomination wear red and black robes...


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## Julia (25 August 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> A comment was made earlier in the thread that the poster was happy to support a Bible Verse of the Day thread. However that view quickly changed. Reading between the lines, it seems people are only happy to support a "Non-Confrontational, Non-Offensive, Nice, Happy, Uplifting Bible Verse of Day" thread.
> 
> Duckman



Duckman, I think Kennas has answered this.   When Christians start making threatening noises that if we don't follow their beliefs we will come to a sticky end, it's difficult not to be irritated.   

I imagine your comment above was directed at me.   Yes, I did support those people who wanted to exchange what looked like being inspirational, encouraging Bible verses, because even non-Christians can quite enjoy some of that.  But that wasn't what was continued.

Btw, we're not all atheists if we don't follow a Christian religion and attend a church.   I, for example, am agnostic.  I have no idea whether there is a God or not and remain open minded on the subject.   I think most atheists are quick to acknowledge the hypocrisy which often exists amongst organised religion and it is this we object to.


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## tcoates (25 August 2008)

Kennas,

Think that if you knew which church David123 belonged to, you might also understand his background (whether you agree with it or not is not the point). 

You all take the view...

bible implies christian implies "same beliefs"

WHAT A BUNCH OF TWADDLE?

Tim


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## treefrog (25 August 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> For those following Christian religions, "going to Church" remains a central part of their "Faith". It is front and centre of all mainsteam Christian beliefs.



disagrees with the duck from personal experiencen my mother's side (scottish) of the fence they were very christian but very anti "bricks and mortar" type church based religions.

love your "balance" views wayne - can't help wondering what the religious zealot's thought process is when reading those - I presume one day the penny finally drops


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## bunyip (25 August 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> Dont look like you goin to heaven wayne




Course Wayne is going to heaven.....otherwise how will I ever handle all those sex crazed ex-virgins up there by myself, after the Muslim terrorists who own them have all dropped dead from exhaustion? 
I mean, 80 virgins per man would take a heavy toll on even the fittest bloke. Those Muslim terrorists believe their life on Earth will be short and glorious, and will be followed by an equally glorious life in heaven with their 80 virgins. But unless they learn how to pace themselves with all those ladies, their life in heaven might be even shorter than their Earthly life was.
But that's OK.....that's where Wayne and I step in and offer our services. 
Matter of fact we might even recruit David123 to give us a hand when he turns up in heaven.
What do you say David....are you a starter?


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## Duckman#72 (25 August 2008)

Julia said:


> Duckman, I think Kennas has answered this.   When Christians start making threatening noises that if we don't follow their beliefs we will come to a sticky end, it's difficult not to be irritated.
> 
> I imagine your comment above was directed at me.   Yes, I did support those people who wanted to exchange what looked like being inspirational, encouraging Bible verses, because even non-Christians can quite enjoy some of that.  But that wasn't what was continued.
> 
> Btw, we're not all atheists if we don't follow a Christian religion and attend a church.   I, for example, am agnostic.  I have no idea whether there is a God or not and remain open minded on the subject.   I think most atheists are quick to acknowledge the hypocrisy which often exists amongst organised religion and it is this we object to.




Hi Julia

My comments were more related to "the vibe" of the posts. Not you specifically. I really can understand your view. I'm just throwing my hat in the ring here because it seems it is David versus the rest. (Believe me I'm not sure that I want David "on my side": 

It just surprises me that as a "not very practising"  Catholic, I was not at all offended or upset by David's post. Yet as a "believer" shouldn't I have the most to fear? 

Those people who are atheists and agnostics seem to have taken great offence to the posts - yet they don't believe anyway!! 

Shouldn't it be water off a ducks back. Whether I am representative of the silent majority is open to argument - I believe in God, go to Church irregularly, don't preach to friends/strangers/family. What always surprises me is the passion and viciousness of the people both sides of me. Those hardcore religious supporters to the left of me and the Anti-Christers to the right.   

Each to their own. Let's not forget that the thread is not called "Inspiration Thoughts for the Day". I personally have only ever entered this thread to view the arguments. Seems like heaps of others have to. 

Here's a thought - maybe we should get back to entering into this thread if we are prepared to tolerate what is written in the Bible?  

Duckman


----------



## Sean K (25 August 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> Those people who are atheists and agnostics seem to have taken great offence to the posts - yet they don't believe anyway!!
> 
> Shouldn't it be water off a ducks back.



Yes duckman, can seem strange.

If I don't believe in Hell, then who cares if someone tells me I'm going there?

Well, to the athiest/non/not sure/ believer it's not a question of Hell, it's a question of good morals, values, and virtues.

When someone tells me I'm going to Hell, it infers that I am being a bad person. 

This is incredibly insulting.


----------



## tcoates (25 August 2008)

Between the various posts from David123 there seems to be a lot of *other stuff* that would appear to be illogical argument. Here are some other link I think readers should consider...

C.S.Lewis - Hell is not some medieval Dante Peak type thing

http://www.amazon.com/tag/atheism/f...orum=Fx3VDTKO61HE6U7&cdThread=Tx21OG743OVXH4C

On good people going to hell

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_good_people_go_to_hell

A couple of years old now (for your viewing), "Who wrote the bible..."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2061773048178434620

And

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible

I am not supporting David123 and his views, but I think the views from the opposite side are equally skewed.

Tim


----------



## Julia (25 August 2008)

kennas said:


> Yes duckman, can seem strange.
> 
> If I don't believe in Hell, then who cares if someone tells me I'm going there?
> 
> ...



Agreed.  There just always seems to be that implication that a sense of morality must derive from a belief in a God/practice of religion.


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 August 2008)

It starts with interfering in the life of somebody else.

Either verbally (telling people how it`s going to be, lying, abusive, derogatory, belittling words) or physically (stealing, hitting, etc. -- watch nightly news for more examples -- ) .
Then follows retaliation, fighting, revenge, punishment and the perpetuation of all we seek to avoid.

What is the moral of the story?



> When we live and let live, we don't need to criticize, judge, or condemn others. We have no need to control them or try and make them conform to our way of thinking. We let others live their own lives and we live ours.


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## jonojpsg (25 August 2008)

kennas said:


> Yes duckman, can seem strange.
> 
> If I don't believe in Hell, then who cares if someone tells me I'm going there?
> 
> ...




surely though kennas you can see that you going to hell has nothing to do with you being a bad person per se.  The basic theology is that because we (humans) chose to do our own thing rather than God's we are responsible for it.  God made that situation right by paying for all our sins with Jesus' death.

If we choose not to accept that payment then nothing else will.  Makes sense when you think about it - I mean God gave people plenty of chances to do the right thing but it just doesn't work that way because in the end we want to do our own thing.

I appreciate that you are probably a great guy and I like to think I'm pretty good too as do most if not all of us.  From a Christian perspective though that doesn't cut it.


----------



## jonojpsg (25 August 2008)

Julia said:


> Agreed.  There just always seems to be that implication that a sense of morality must derive from a belief in a God/practice of religion.




Oh and on this, the sense of morality that we have is used as part of the evidence that points to the existence of God (CS Lewis).  Doesn't mean you have to believe in God to have morals though because they are are innate part of us all.


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## rub92me (25 August 2008)

91 posts and counting, getting close to a new troll record. Amen.


----------



## 2020hindsight (25 August 2008)

I'm guessing that many middle aged "Atheists" become "Anglical Atheists" (or "Catholic Atheists") on their deathbeds. - dollar each way sorta thing.


----------



## Seneca60BC (25 August 2008)

Jesus said: "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.You will know them by their fruits."


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## wayneL (25 August 2008)

Duckman,

I've no need to repeat what Kennas and Julia have said in response to your post, they are spot on.

But for the record: I am not an atheist. I am not even an agnostic either. I like the Tao Te Ching in a philosophical sense, but I'm not a Taoist. My "belief" metamorphoses as I go along, according to what I experience and what I learn.

I have no problem with Christianity or Christians and will even go along to church if I am visiting with people who go (never under my own steam though).

I have friends from Atheism, Gnosticism, Agnosticism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and Taoism and I respect them all for their beliefs because they are very mature about them. We can all have discussions about the individual beliefs and philosophies and even debate about the "holes" in each others beliefs (sometimes hotly) without taking insult.

Why? Because there is an implicit trust that none of us will try to #### with others minds by using fear or guilt, that would be a breach of trust. Nobody ever says "You must be a (fill in religion here) otherwise your soul is doomed. Nobody thinks the other is going to hell. That would mean the end of friendships.

That is what has happened in this thread. There was a breach of that "implicit trust" by the attempt to use fear. Dave123 is not here to share Bible quotes, he is here to proselytize, and that is why people have become offended. 

If I've offended other Christians, I apologize, that was not my intention. There are many cool Christians on this board who I would hate to ever offend.



> your comment was quite bizarre Wayne. For someone that is usually so logical and knowledgable with their arguments I can't believe that it slipped out.
> 
> For those following Christian religions, "going to Church" remains a central part of their "Faith". It is front and centre of all mainsteam Christian beliefs.




Think of what Church is and what Bible passage(s) infers Church-going (without getting into arguments of authenticity):

1/ Matthew 18:20 - For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

2/ Generally, the Book of Acts.

These two infer two radically different scenarios.

In 1/, any group of two or more who meet for the purpose of support, prayer, teaching etc is a church. It can be in "a church", or it can be under a thorn tree on the Serengeti Plain. It wouldn't matter. This is why groups like the Quakers have no "church".

In 2/ however, and entirely different scenario evolves post crucifixion. What is described in Acts is a socialist commune... from each his ability and to each their need. No "private" wealth was allowed as Ananias and Sapphira discovered in Acts 5.

Under this model every church is now most certainly apostate... and I need not go into lengthy prognostications there, just read Acts.

As this post is getting lengthy, I'll leave you to decipher of the implications of each.


----------



## Julia (25 August 2008)

Duckman, because I respect and like you, I've been giving your post some more thought.

You've told us that you believe in God, go to church etc.  But what you haven't done is try to prosletyze to us with biblical quotations designed to make us quake in our agnostic or atheistic shoes in fear.  This is the difference between you and David 123.

I note that David 123 hasn'tso far responded to my question about what he does in ordinary daily living to demonstrate his goodness as a person.  He might even be a computer generated bible quoting non-person for all we know.

I think we need to remember that this is a public forum.   When we make a post we do it in the full knowledge that we are putting up our opinions with the understanding that other people may differ from the views we express and will therefore challenge us on what we have said.  Doesn't matter whether it's about Hell or BNB.   

I don't see any reason why biblical quotations, and the motives of people quoting them, should be any exception to this.

So if some ASF member decides to imply that I, and my co-agnostics/atheists will be consigned forever to the most fiery of Hells  because I don't repent of my multiple sins and smartly get myself into some building devoted to the worship of a God, then I will reserve the right always to challenge that.

All the best
Julia


----------



## Duckman#72 (25 August 2008)

Hi Wayne



wayneL said:


> Think of what Church is and what Bible passage(s) infers Church-going (without getting into arguments of authenticity):
> 
> 1/ Matthew 18:20 - For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.




Correct - and the place for such gatherings is usually referred to as ......"a Church". 

"I will make them joyful in my house of prayer. Their holocausts and their sufferings will be accepted on my alter, for my house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples" Is 56:7



WayneL said:


> In 1/, any group of two or more who meet for the purpose of support, prayer, teaching etc is a church. It can be in "a church", or it can be under a thorn tree on the Serengeti Plain. It wouldn't matter. This is why groups like the Quakers have no "church"




I totally agree with your interpretation Wayne. I was making the point that "going to Church" plays a central part to mainstream Christian faith regardless of whether it is St Paul's Cathedral or under a thorn tree in the Serengeti Plain.  The common link is that they are meeting a group for the purpose of prayer as you established above. 

(And one other thing - would people please not treat me as a religious crank just because I've quoted from the Bible. I know it is the fastest way to lose Forum Cred!!!)

Duckman


----------



## Julia (25 August 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> H
> (And one other thing - would people please not treat me as a religious crank just because I've quoted from the Bible. I know it is the fastest way to lose Forum Cred!!!)
> 
> Duckman



Ah Duckman, don't think you're in any danger of losing Forum cred yet!


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## nomore4s (25 August 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> I know it is the fastest way to lose Forum Cred!!!




Add in the fact your an Essendon nut as well and................

:


----------



## Duckman#72 (25 August 2008)

Julia said:


> Duckman, because I respect and like you, I've been giving your post some more thought.
> 
> You've told us that you believe in God, go to church etc.  But what you haven't done is try to prosletyze to us with biblical quotations designed to make us quake in our agnostic or atheistic shoes in fear.  This is the difference between you and David 123.
> 
> ...




Hi Julia

Look I completely agree about Bible-Bashing, fist-thumping religious nutjobs banging on about how only they have the answer to eternal life. David didn't treat members with any respect and deserves every criticism for that.    

I just believe that ASF needs decide whether to allow a thread titled "Bible Verse of the Day" or it doesn't. If it does allow it then, it needs to be prepared to allow it in its entirety. I don't believe that such a thread can be self-censored to determine what verse is acceptable and which one isn't. 

It is an attack on freedom of speech. I am getting so left-wing on this I'm scaring myself  Hey - why anyone would want to go on ASF and write about impending doom and fire and brimstone, I have no idea but I still stand up for those wanting to quote verse s from the Bible to be able to do so in a thread called..."Bible Verse of the Day", without censorship.  

We might have to agree to disagree. As always - I really enjoy talking with you Julia. I've said it before, you are such a caring soul on this ASF. All the best.

Duckman


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## Duckman#72 (25 August 2008)

nomore4s said:


> Add in the fact your an Essendon nut as well and................
> 
> :




Ha ha ha ....get to bed Nomores. That baby must be letting you have too much awake time!!!


----------



## wayneL (25 August 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> Hi Wayne
> 
> Correct - and the place for such gatherings is usually referred to as ......"a Church".
> 
> "I will make them joyful in my house of prayer. Their holocausts and their sufferings will be accepted on my alter, for my house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples" Is 56:7



Just to be a pedantic pain in the @rse :

Isaiah was written quite some time before the advent of Jesus, ergo, could not be referring to church. In fact it can only be referring to the Jewish Temple AKA Synagogue. In fact the etymological roots of "church" do not appear until around 300 AD. 

As a point of order the greek used by the NT writers that has been translated into English as "church" is "ekklesia". This word at that point of time was not used to describe a routine place of worship, but as a special assembly for the purposes of voting or making decisions and was used for secular purposes originally eg a political meeting.

Therefore ekklesia can be a Christian assembly, but equally can be an assembly of silversmiths as was the case in Acts 19:32,39,41 where ekklesia was correctly translated as "assembly". Equally it can be an assembly of tiddlywinks players.

This puts the modern hierarchial church at odds with scripture as there is no biblical basis for it. Therefore it can be argued that most modern churches are apostate (without even getting into the idolatry debate). 

A "real" Christian may therefore avoid "church" like the plague in favour of informal meetings of believers.

And of course we can go off at all sorts of tangents from here. 




Duckman#72 said:


> I totally agree with your interpretation Wayne. I was making the point that "going to Church" plays a central part to mainstream Christian faith regardless of whether it is St Paul's Cathedral or under a thorn tree in the Serengeti Plain.  The common link is that they are meeting a group for the purpose of prayer as you established above.
> 
> (And one other thing - would people please not treat me as a religious crank just because I've quoted from the Bible. I know it is the fastest way to lose Forum Cred!!!)
> 
> Duckman




So "going to church" is a misnomer, particularly if under a thorn tree.

(pedants rule, OK?)


----------



## wayneL (25 August 2008)

BTW

The Bible is just a bunch of stuff written by various people and collated into a book by a committee of men.

Cheers


----------



## Greg71 (25 August 2008)

Hi,

A bible discussion usually is the bait I need to get involved, so here goes.

The following is based on my current understanding, which may or may not be  100% accurate.

"Hell" is an English word used at the time of the King James translation (1611) of the bible. It meant "covered" or "the unseen" or something like that. Translators used it in various parts of the bible translation. Jesus didn't walk around saying "Hell" etc. 

In the bible, where the word "hell" is used, the original Greek or Hebrew text uses the word "grave" or refers to the city dump outside Jerusalem, which was set on fire occasionally to destroy the dead bodies and garbage.

When Jesus referred to "hell" in that context, and used the term "where the fire is not quenched" (most read it and straight away think, "oh, burning in flames forever, the fire never goes out..."). This is because the fire was not quenched in this place, it was left to burn itself out when it ran out of fuel (dead bodies etc). This is also the reference to "worms" and stuff in the scriptures. 

I found this stuff out at a site called "Bible-truths", which I find interesting and thanks to the author of the site was able to expand my understanding of the bible. It's at http://bible-truths.com . Interesting article on tithing there as well.

Although he shares a different view on baptism than I do, most of his stuff seems to make sense and seems pretty solid.

If I can quote one scripture, it's this. 

"Except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

It really doesn't get much simpler than that. Man has a carnal mind that cannot comprehend the things of God. It's our natural state until we receive the mind of Christ through baptism of the Holy Ghost. 

This is the baptism of the spirit Jesus spoke of. The born of the water is about being baptized in full submersion, as Jesus did, as every believer did in the bible.

Aiming to be informative and provide information only. Think Switzerland, with a heavy bias towards converting people to Christianity.

One thought. If God is a fair and just God (which he is according to the bible), then would he condemn a person who lived for, in most cases, less than a century, even the worst sinner, to be roasting and burning in red-hot (or white-hot) flames not for a term equal to his life (100 years) to "purge" him / her of sin, and not for 1000 years, 24/7, but for a million years, then another million years, then another.... forever, and ever, and ever, and...

Doesn't match the profile. Even in a courtroom, a mass murderer would never be sentenced to a flaming torture chamber of intense screaming pain forever and ever for his crimes of mass murder. Even the most just judge would never  do it if he were able.

If he were sentenced to ONE dose of burning, he'd die and the suffering would be over, the judgement would be done. But for him to be burnt, then his flesh to regenerate so it could be burnt off again, and again....

Would a God of love do that to his creation, to be burnt forever and ever for a life of less than 100 years? If God is just, how could "hell" as most people know it even exist?

Greg.


----------



## Duckman#72 (25 August 2008)

wayneL said:


> Just to be a pedantic pain in the @rse :
> 
> So "going to church" is a misnomer, particularly if under a thorn tree.
> 
> (pedants rule, OK?)




Pedants rule!!

It was you who mentioned that a meeting under a thorn tree was considered a church - not me.

Anyway - why is it ok for you to interpret that "the church" can be a meeting of two or three people as per Matthew 18:20, but not OK for me to interpret "the church" as a house of prayer as per Isaiah? As per everything religion interpretation is everything......including the apostate position of modern religion. 

Catch you later Wayne. Good talking to you.

Duckman


----------



## wayneL (25 August 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> Pedants rule!!
> 
> It was you who mentioned that a meeting under a thorn tree was considered a church - not me.
> 
> ...



Of course it's OK, it's just discussion and mental exercise.

But cannot interpretation change after discussion? 

I think it's great to debate over these things and a lot is learned by being logically "caught out". It causes one to think.

I can guarantee you that my ideas will be different in 10 years time as a result of such discussions.

The only thing detest is dogmatism. As that Paul nutter said to Timothy in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "*Test everything*".

Cheers have a good night.


----------



## David123 (31 August 2008)

Hey All! 

Sorry about not giving you a verse of the day lately, been so busy! 

Will Post When i can!

Ephesians 4:26-27

"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

Godbless!


----------



## bunyip (31 August 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey All!
> 
> Sorry about not giving you a verse of the day lately, been so busy!
> 
> ...




In that case David, I guess we'll just have to try and struggle through without your verse of the day whenever you don't have time to post it....it'll be tough, but we'll do the best we can!


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## Porper (31 August 2008)

bunyip said:


> In that case David, I guess we'll just have to try and struggle through without your verse of the day whenever you don't have time to post it....it'll be tough, but we'll do the best we can!




And I don't usually have a good laugh on a Sunday night.

Classic.


----------



## bunyip (1 September 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> 
> Fear God Because -Romans 2:6 "He will judge everyone according to what they have done"!
> 
> Godbless!




Really? Well at least judging people on their actions is better than judging them on whether they do or don't believe in him.

As to the 'fear God' bit....why should I? I've never done anything that would cause me to fear retribution from anyone.
I daresay most people are the same.


----------



## bunyip (1 September 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey All! How great is our God!




How great is our God? Depends on your perspective I suppose. 

The Jews can't have thought he was too great when he ignored their pleas for help and abandoned them, his own people, to the cruelty and persecution of the Nazis. 
Some Jews abandoned God from them on, because he had abandoned them. Understandable when you think about it.

God doesn't appear too great when he adopts a 'couldn't care less' attitude to the hardship, death and destruction caused by extreme weather events such as cyclones, droughts, floods etc, and disasters such as earthquakes and tsunamis that kill thousands of people. These events are 'acts of God', are they not? 

God doesn't appear too great when he stands idly by and watches hundreds of thousands of people die a torturous death from starvation in one of those African famines that we see so often on our news programmes.

Yes David, I don't doubt that God is great when seen though your eyes. Sure he's great if we attribute all the good things in the world to him, but absolve him from responsibility for the not so good. I mean, everyone is great if we only focus on their good points while ignoring their bad points. 

And that, David, is exactly what you and your kind are doing. You get so carried away with your 'God is great' routine, that you can't see the forest for the trees. 
You don't have the maturity to take a balanced and realistic viewpoint in relation to God. 
Or maybe it's just that you're scared of him coming down hard on you if you mention his faults as well as his good points. 
Or maybe you're just too starry-eyed and unrealistic to admit that he does have faults. 

I really don't know what causes you to think as you do in relation to God. I'm not even sure if you know yourself. 
But you're so far out of touch with reality that's it's a joke.


----------



## bunyip (1 September 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey all!
> 
> Matthew 7:7
> 
> ...




_*Ask and it will be given to you*_
Unfortunately David, it just doesn't work that way. Not even you could be naive enough to believe otherwise.

_*seek and you will find*_
Yes, there's a fair bit of truth in this.

_*knock and the door will be opened to you*_
Sometimes, and sometimes not. At least it's not as far off the money as your first ridiculous quote.


----------



## jonojpsg (1 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> _*Ask and it will be given to you*_
> Unfortunately David, it just doesn't work that way. Not even you could be naive enough to believe otherwise.
> 
> _*seek and you will find*_
> ...




Hey bunyip, how about you pull your head in if you can't respect someone's right to post a bible verse?


----------



## Julia (1 September 2008)

jonojpsg, ASF is a public forum.  A forum is a place for discussion.
Don't you think that anything any of us post on such a public forum is therefore up for discussion?

If I post on, say, the ANZ thread that "this stock is going to go up 10% tomorrow", I will pretty smartly be told to justify this claim, and rightly so.

So if someone posts a statement from the Bible with which some other member doesn't agree, they probably need to expect that it will be challenged.

Instead of being angry with Bunyip, why not engage with him in an intelligent discussion as to the merits or otherwise of both your points of view?


----------



## jonojpsg (1 September 2008)

Julia said:


> jonojpsg, ASF is a public forum.  A forum is a place for discussion.
> Don't you think that anything any of us post on such a public forum is therefore up for discussion?
> 
> If I post on, say, the ANZ thread that "this stock is going to go up 10% tomorrow", I will pretty smartly be told to justify this claim, and rightly so.
> ...




Hi Julia,
Nice reasoned post there, well done  I disagree with you though, as I am not angry with bunyip simply wanting him to lay off making statements that imply David is being "ridiculous" or "naive", or lumping him in with "you and your kind".


----------



## bunyip (1 September 2008)

jonojpsg said:


> Hey bunyip, how about you pull your head in if you can't respect someone's right to post a bible verse?





I'm very tempted to suggest that you follow your own advice and pull _*your *_head in. But I won't, because by doing so I'd be lowering myself to your level.  I've always believed that people of character should be capable of expressing their views without resorting to rudeness, abruptness, and the generally crude standard of communication that you've displayed.

I absolutely respect the right of David and anyone else to post a bible verse. Just as you should respect the right of myself and everyone else to be frank with David by telling him if we think he's being naive, threatening (_you'll all go __to hell if you don't believe in my god_), unrealistic, offensive, immature, starry-eyed or whatever.

This is a public forum with the objective of encouraging discussion on a wide range of issues. Such discussion will at different times take the form of debate, criticism, praise, endorsement, sometimes anger and disgust.
If that doesn't suit you then I suggest you stop frequenting public forums.


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## nunthewiser (1 September 2008)

well i dont care what any of youse say about these verses , im still trying to get my head around becoming a virgin so i can get into heaven !


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## Duckman#72 (1 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> This is a public forum with the objective of encouraging discussion on a wide range of issues. Such discussion will at different times take the form of debate, criticism, praise, endorsement, sometimes anger and disgust.




Well said Bunyip. 

Unfortunately some people get on here and their so called "discussion" only takes the form of derision, mockery, contempt and ridicule. Doesn't leave much room for the "encouragement of discussion". Hopefully a heap of ASF contributors will read your post.

Duckman


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## nunthewiser (1 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> In that case David, I guess we'll just have to try and struggle through without your verse of the day whenever you don't have time to post it....it'll be tough, but we'll do the best we can!




just thought i,d even it out , personally thinks that post sounds like mockery too me but hey what would i know im just a nun with a bad habit


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## bunyip (1 September 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> Well said Bunyip.
> 
> Unfortunately some people get on here and their so called "discussion" only takes the form of derision, mockery, contempt and ridicule. Doesn't leave much room for the "encouragement of discussion". Hopefully a heap of ASF contributors will read your post.
> 
> Duckman




Thanks Duckman

And might I say I admire the fact that you, a Christian, don't try to ram your Christian message down everyone's throat, as some of them try to do. Your views are always balanced and sensible, and your posts are always a pleasure to read. While I don't share your Christian beliefs, I nevertheless feel that you and I share similar values and we generally think along similar lines. 

For the record, I'm a former Christian myself. I was brought up in a Christian home, went to Sunday school and then in later life, church every week without fail. After leaving school I attended bible classes because I chose to do so. And I wasn't just a Sunday morning Christian either....I practised a Christian lifestyle every day of the week. In fact I pretty much still do, except that I no longer believe it was God who created the world, and I no longer swallow such Christian lines as......
* You only have to ask, and you will receive.
* You only have to place your trust in God, and everything will be fine.
* All the good things in the world are attributable to God, whereas the other things that are not so good, we don't mention God when we talk about them. 

And so on and so on. As someone who prides himself on possessing a reasonable level of intelligence and common sense, I just wasn't gullible enough to go on believing all that stuff.


----------



## noirua (2 September 2008)

It matters not whom you follow nor those who follow them. The path they lead you to, if it be true an honest, for all just men may then enter my Kingdom. In telling you this, many who would have you believe they lead you to me, do so, despite their burden and they may not enter, even though they have lead you to me.


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## bunyip (2 September 2008)

David123 said:


> Hey All!
> 
> Ephesians 4:26-27
> 
> ...





_*In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry*_
I completely agree with you and the bible on this one, David. It's good to see that the bible isn't all nonsense and that it does actually contain some excellent advice and guidelines.

_*and do not give the devil a foothold.*_
Not so keen on this one. It's highly likely that the devil owes his 'existence' to someone's very fertile imagination.


----------



## bunyip (2 September 2008)

jonojpsg said:


> Hi Julia,
> Nice reasoned post there, well done  I disagree with you though, as I am not angry with bunyip simply wanting him to lay off making statements that imply David is being "ridiculous" or "naive", or lumping him in with "you and your kind".




I stick by my view that 'Ask, and you will receive', is a ridiculous quote. And I stick by my belief that David is naive in the extreme if he believes it.

If it was simply a case of getting what you ask for, then the city near where I live would not be in dire straits with regard to water shortage. The dams that supply this city are down to 11% capacity and if this summer doesn't produce a decent wet season to replenish our dams, the city could well run out of water. 
Not that it affects me too much - I live on acreage 15 minutes from town and I have a very good bore with good quality drinking water, and also a thirty thousand litre rainwater tank that's never been below 70% capacity. No water shortage on my place.
But my point is simply this...... according to the 'ask and you will receive' belief, it should simply be a matter of asking God to top up our dams. Problem solved....he sends down the rain and a week or so later our dams are overflowing. Nice thought. Pity it's so far removed from reality....Christians have been holding 'prayers for rain' meetings in my city for years.

When I was 16 my grandfather, aged just over 60, was diagnosed with stomach cancer. He was a great bloke, a pillar of society, was involved in a number of community service organisations, was one of the elders and also was treasurer of his church, had been a devout Christian all his life, and not just on Sunday mornings either, he lived, breathed, and practised a Christian lifestyle every day. 
All his family were practising Christians, including me at the time. 
Now, according to the 'ask, and you will receive' quotation that David has given us from the bible, it should have been a simple matter to save my grandfather from his illness. All we had to do was to ask God to restore my grandfather to good health. 
We, his Christian family, prayed long and hard, imploring God to save my grandfather' life. Guess what happened. Nothing. My grandfather's illness progressed and, to the extreme anguish of his family, he died a slow and torturous death.

I could give you a hundred more examples that disprove the 'ask, and you will receive' claim. But no need.....I'm sure you get the point, and I'm sure you now have some understanding of why I regard this belief as ridiculous, and why I regard people as naive and unrealistic if they believe it.

As for your comment of me lumping David in with 'you and your kind'.......

There are different kinds of Christians. On one end of the scale we have people like Duckman, who practices his Christian faith in a quiet, unobtrusive manner. We don't see him trying to influence our thinking by constantly quoting us bible verses that we didn't ask for. We don't see him making silly claims such as 'ask, and you will receive'. What we see instead is mature and balanced thinking from Duckman, rather than foolish, blind acceptance of everything the bible says. 
I'd be extremely surprised if Duckman doesn't question, and disagree with, quite a bit of what the bible says.

On the other end of the scale we have a different kind of Christian...the  kind who apparently is naive enough to accept as gospel truth everything the bible says, whose thinking is not mature enough to question some of the claims in the bible, who tries, by subtle and sometimes not so subtle means, to influence the thinking of others, who resorts to telling people they'll go to hell if they don't believe in God.
This is the category that David and those like him come into. Hence my referring to David as 'you and your kind'.

For the record, I don't doubt that David is a pretty decent sort of a person.....the sort of bloke who helps people where he can, a person of good character, someone of honesty and integrity. It's just a pity that he can't bring some balance into his views on Christianity. 
I'll continue to challenge and criticise David's views when I don't agree with them, just as I'll tell him when I do agree with him.


----------



## Surly (2 September 2008)

Ask and you shall receive...

There has been a snippet of a comedians show running on the radio here that this discussion reminded me of "I wanted a bike and prayed for one. Then I realised god does not work that way so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness" 

cheers
Surly


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## nunthewiser (2 September 2008)

amen bruthha


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## Timmy (2 September 2008)

Nicely said bunyip.  Always valuable to bring a rational perspective to any thread.


----------



## James Austin (2 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> I stick by my view that 'Ask, and you will receive', is a ridiculous quote . . . .
> 
> If it was simply a case of getting what you ask for, . . . .




Bunyip,

Scanning the globe, and from my own experience, I suspect your God (and David's) is more intent on freeing one from desire, rather than fulfilling every desire; afterall, the place is a bit of a mess isnt it!

So perhaps God (for lack of a better word), is more intent on a striping away, a peeling back of the layers, a relinquishing. Rather than an "adding to", rather than an "ask and you shall recieve".

And personally, I prefer the "stripping away model" rather than the "accumulation model"; "nothing" has a infintely greater freedom than "something".


----------



## bunyip (2 September 2008)

James Austin said:


> Bunyip,
> 
> Scanning the globe, and from my own experience, I suspect your God (and David's) is more intent on freeing one from desire, rather than fulfilling every desire; afterall, the place is a bit of a mess isnt it!
> 
> ...




I don't have a god, James. I gave up on God a long time ago after he failed for more than 20 years to respond to any of my attempted communications with him. And when I saw irrefutable evidence that God (if he does exist) is far removed from the 'God of compassion and love' that he's touted to be.

But anyway, you've put forward an interesting perspective and I thank you for sharing your views.


----------



## Julia (2 September 2008)

James Austin said:


> Bunyip,
> 
> Scanning the globe, and from my own experience, I suspect your God (and David's) is more intent on freeing one from desire, rather than fulfilling every desire; afterall, the place is a bit of a mess isnt it!
> 
> ...




Interesting and thoughtful post, James.   Leaving God out of it, I like the idea of ceasing the endless process of acquiring more and more, much of it stuff we don't need.

On the Quotable Quotes thread I posted the following quote which I think can fit into this discussion quite well.



> It seemed to her that all of life was simply diminution and loss, the paring away by degrees of *what had seemed necessary,*the learning to do without.


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

I'm still trying to work out why I was called "lacking in character" because I quoted that one about " moses burning up the desert in his triumph".   I guess someone around here doesn't think much of Triumphs?  maybe I should have said    
" in his MG?" 

speaking of thin skinned ...  and stripping away etc - here's the onion principle (repost) 

http://www.positivepath.net/ideasCJ9.asp



> Emotional Layers - The Onion Principle
> By Chris Joscelyne
> Some people are like a raw egg. They have a hard outer exterior, but once their shell is cracked or broken by a stranger, a workmate, a friend, a family member, or by a romantic partner, they start to fall apart.
> 
> ...


----------



## Timmy (2 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> I'm still trying to work out why I was called "lacking in character" because I quoted that one about " moses burning up the desert in his triumph".




I must have missed that.
But I agree, shows a lack of character indeed.

Now if you had have said ON his Triumph ....


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

lol - hey now you're talking , Tim

God, Moses, Mad Max and Easy Rider all morphed together lol


----------



## Timmy (2 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> lol - hey now you're talking , Tim
> 
> God, Moses, Mad Max and Easy Rider all morphed together lol




LOL!


----------



## jonojpsg (2 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> I stick by my view that 'Ask, and you will receive', is a ridiculous quote. And I stick by my belief that David is naive in the extreme if he believes it.
> 
> If it was simply a case of getting what you ask for, then the city near where I live would not be in dire straits with regard to water shortage. The dams that supply this city are down to 11% capacity and if this summer doesn't produce a decent wet season to replenish our dams, the city could well run out of water.
> Not that it affects me too much - I live on acreage 15 minutes from town and I have a very good bore with good quality drinking water, and also a thirty thousand litre rainwater tank that's never been below 70% capacity. No water shortage on my place.
> ...




Don't want to rain on your parade bunyip, but while I'm sure there have been praying Christians in your city asking God to send rain, what about the rest of the heathens there who are thumbing their noses at God and saying there is no God so we'll just go about our business?

Can' argue with the story about your grandpa though, have seen many instances of physical healing not being forthcoming.  Doesn't mean God hasn't answered the prayer though, might mean his answer was no.  WHile that might make you conclude that therefore God cannot be wholly good, it is not a logical conclusion as God's reasons for answering no will not be revealed until...whenever.  It also doesn't disprove the "ask and you shall receive" verse when taken in context.

The bit about lumping David in with him and his kind still doesn't ring true to me.  David is not "making silly claims" when he quotes verses from the bible,  he is simply quoting verses from the bible.  If you DYOR you will find that the bible is the most comprehensively supported text from the ancient world and holds together extremely well in the face of literary and historical criticism. Your statement that mature thinking people cannot accept the bible as the truth is also offensive.  While I admit openly that I tend towards the aggressive and immature side of the tracks on occasions, I am also more than capable of mature and rational thought and I believe that the bible is the truth about God and us.  Simply because you don't doesn't give you the right to disparage someone who does.

Looking forward to more reasoned discussion


----------



## 2020hindsight (2 September 2008)

jonojpsg said:


> .....   Doesn't mean God hasn't answered the prayer though, might mean his answer was no .....



Can't argue with that one jono, lol.  

like the old Jew calling to Heaven asking "Lord please let me win the lottery " 
goes on for weeks, .. tears etc. 
eventually  God booms back "ok , ok,  but meet me half way !! - buy a flaming ticket! "


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## rub92me (2 September 2008)

Amazing, this thread is _still_ going...


> An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums.  A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion.  Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.


----------



## jonojpsg (2 September 2008)

rub92me said:


> Amazing, this thread is _still_ going...




LOL! Is David a secret forum troll who is sitting back rubbing his hands together in glee while bunyip and I go hammer and tongs at each other 

Ah, I'm always happy to jump in at the drop of a hat anyway


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2008)

Pat said:


> Something I found while researching the cosmological constant-
> Are we giving up because it's too complicated? or is there a creator?
> 
> This is a bit long but a good listen....
> ...




Here is something interesting posted by Pat in the Big-Bang thread.

FWIW, I think a lot of problems with God come from what I've described as "the dude in the sky" meme. We have difficulty imagining anything other than the style of God as proposed in the Bible, because that is what has been taught in our society.

Therefore, noting stark divergence from the Bible's God and reality, folks discard the notion of God (or insert alternative term of choice), rather than exploring the infinite possibilities of what (insert favourite term) might be, in favour of Atheism. 

Often because of the emotional and sometimes physical harm inflicted by the church, people resort to militant and proselytic(?) atheism.

I'll poke fun at the Bible with the best of Atheists, but I think it can be fun, enlightening, and even intellectually stimulating to have an open mind and consider the infinite number of things that "god" might be other than the biblical model.

I have numerous reasons for not being an atheist, which I won't go into, but an open mind can lead you on all sorts of interesting paths where science and imagination (for this is what we need to consider god) intertwine.

For instance, people are stuck with the notion that God must be a supernatural being, (or not at all). We expect supernatural phenomena to appear to "prove" God's existence. But what if God is entirely natural?

Just specu-thizing here folks, but an open mind is a fun thing.

And there is no reason why anyone cannot use biblical passages in a philosophical sense, even if an atheist, such as the way Bunyip has dissected the passage above. Use what is philosophically useful and discard the rest.


----------



## Julia (2 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> Often because of the emotional and sometimes physical harm inflicted by the church, people resort to militant and proselytic(?) atheism.



Yes, but not just outright harm, Wayne, also the irritating hypocrisy in so many cases.



> For instance, people are stuck with the notion that God must be a supernatural being, (or not at all). We expect supernatural phenomena to appear to "prove" God's existence. But what if God is entirely natural?



OK, this sounds interesting.  Could you expand on this notion a bit?


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2008)

Julia said:


> Yes, but not just outright harm, Wayne, also the irritating hypocrisy in so many cases.



Absolutely agreed.



Julia said:


> OK, this sounds interesting.  Could you expand on this notion a bit?



This is a tough one. As I tend to think in the abstract, sometimes I find it a little hard to put into words "exactly" what I'm thinking.

I was discussing this the other night with friends and totally failed to convey my meaning. Perhaps because I was eating, drinking and being merry to excess at the time. 

I'll try and write something about that later, but meanwhile, here is another persons thoughts with some similar lines of thought that I just googled. http://hereinthecaveofwonder.blogspot.com/2008/03/advocacy-for-natural-god.html

NB** It's tough finding stuff on the Internet as most try to draw a line back to the bible, which is what I don't want to do.


----------



## noirua (2 September 2008)

...and Moses set forth further into the promised land that his Father in heaven had promised him. Much he saw was desert and he needed to journey further and deeper in search for truth and enlightenment. On following each mountain path he eventually reached the end of his journey.The Lord said that those who set forth and travel far will find the place of enlightenment and a place with me at my side.  n...II(a)


----------



## Duckman#72 (2 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> And there is no reason why anyone cannot use biblical passages in a philosophical sense, even if an atheist, such as the way Bunyip has dissected the passage above. Use what is philosophically useful and discard the rest.




That makes me smile Wayne. The thought of atheists looking for philosophical direction, after discarding all religious connotations in passages found the "Bible Verse of the Day" thread. Surely there are easier ways for atheists to find answers to the meaning of life? 

Despite posters best intentions to create an open forum to rationally discuss opposing views it unfortunately won't happen here. Why? Because religion is such an abstract, personal and interpretative topic. You can't argue in a logical, rational manner about a subject matter that is so obtuse and nebulus.

You and I can argue about whether Dustin Fletcher was a better full back than Stephen Silvagni until the cows come home. We have statistics, video footage, player comments and physical profiles to back up our arguments. That same quality of evidence is not available when discussing religion. As Wayne says - people need "proof". 

If you take the religious context out of Bible Verses as Bunyip has done then they can seem unbelievably childish and simple. I disagree with you Wayne - the Bible was written in a religious context, so why would you want to read, interpret and comprehend the Bible away from its religious framework? You wouldn't read the Complete Mathematical Equations of Einstein for its literary value , nor would you read the Works of Shakespeare for it's historical accuracy. 

Religion is emotive - plain and simple. Davids posts appear to be driven by his need to promote Gods word at any expense. He is certainly not being objective with his reasoning and it is totally personal to him. Bunyip's story is a sad one. His rejection of religion is also based on his personal experiences which have left him bitter, hurt, betrayed and disbelieving. Both have opinions based on _highly personal_ beliefs. David will never see things like Bunyip and vice versa.

Wayne, don't be too quick to assume that "Christians" haven't asked the question..."In what form does God exist?". Just because there is a stereotypical view that people think of that dates back to our "Sunday School" days, doesn't mean that for many Christians we don't each have our own belief or understanding in what form God takes. For some that may me supernatural for some it might mean looking for a "living God" in each day.  

Just remember everyone that this is a Bible Verse thread!! Does every Bible quote have to bring into play the age old question "How do you know God even exists?" 

Duckman


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> That makes me smile Wayne. The thought of atheists looking for philosophical direction, after discarding all religious connotations in passages found the "Bible Verse of the Day" thread. Surely there are easier ways for atheists to find answers to the meaning of life?




Maybe so, but even the Skeptic's annotated bible recognized "good stuff" in between all the dross. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/good/nt_list.html It is also a fact that our society with all its laws and customs are based around Christo-Judaic tradition. We live largely by the philosophical constructs of the Bible (or the modern Church's interpretation thereof).

We celebrate Easter, Christmas, give charity etc. Even Dawkins admits to being a "cultural" Christian. We live in the Christian cultural tradition, even if increasingly not in the religious tradition. Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know.

But the fact remains that there are useful philosophies in the Bible. If a person's convictions dictate they definitely don't source them there, fine, but they're there.



Duckman#72 said:


> Despite posters best intentions to create an open forum to rationally discuss opposing views it unfortunately won't happen here. Why? Becasue religion is such an abstract, personal and interpretative topic. You can't argue in a logical, rational manner about a subject matter that is so obtuse and nebulus.



You can if open and stable. In my group of friends we do it all the time. But I suppose what you're saying is that not all here are open and stable... true. 

By the way, I'm not a Bible apologist, just ambivalent.


----------



## Duckman#72 (3 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> We celebrate Easter, Christmas, give charity etc. Even Dawkins admits to being a "cultural" Christian. We live in the Christian cultural tradition, even if increasingly not in the religious tradition. Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know.




Very interesting point Wayne. You say that "we live in the Christian cultural tradition". Are you implying that it is a conscious decision on each individuals behalf? Or by just agreeing with society's norms we become "Cultural Christians" by default? Or are we simply living under the remains of an increasingly irrelevant religious calendar?  

As for whether or not it is a good thing, depends in part to the importance you place on religion in the calendar. 

Duckman


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

If anyone is looking for quotes from the bible, these sites might help ..

http://www.rhymezone.com/g/holy/oldtestament
http://www.rhymezone.com/g/holy/newtestament

eg type in begat ... and you beget this ... 



> Genesis > Chapter 5
> 
> And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and *begat* a son in his
> own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth: 5:4 And
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (3 September 2008)

Adam lived 930 years
Seth lived 912 years
Enos lived 905 years
...

I bet Enos was pissed off he died so young.


----------



## bunyip (3 September 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> That makes me smile Wayne.
> 
> Bunyip's story is a sad one. His rejection of religion is also based on his personal experiences which have left him bitter, hurt, betrayed and disbelieving.
> 
> Duckman





Not really, Duckman. Disbelieving, yes, but I no longer feel hurt, bitter or betrayed....those feeling faded away when my belief in God faded away. I mean, you can't feel bitter or hurt or betrayed by something that you no longer believe in.

Anyway, at least there's one positive that's come out of this thread......it's cleared up the confusion about climate change. 
My view has always been that all these droughts we've been seeing are nothing more than a naturally occurring phenomenon within the overall climatic cycle. 
Some people thought greenhouse emissions were the culprit. 
Looks like we were all wrong....the droughts are caused by all those heathens who are thumbing their noses at God!


----------



## noirua (3 September 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> Very interesting point Wayne. You say that "we live in the Christian cultural tradition". Are you implying that it is a conscious decision on each individuals behalf? Or by just agreeing with society's norms we become "Cultural Christians" by default? Or are we simply living under the remains of an increasingly irrelevant religious calendar?
> 
> As for whether or not it is a good thing, depends in part to the importance you place on religion in the calendar.
> 
> Duckman



Hospitals used to put people down as "of a religion".  No religion, then you are "Protestant", by default. "Agnostic", not a religion, therefore, you are Protestant.


----------



## spooly74 (4 September 2008)

noirua said:


> Hospitals used to put people down as "of a religion". No religion, then you are "Protestant", by default. "Agnostic", not a religion, therefore, you are Protestant.




Can any theist describe the nature of their god? . . .

Agnosticism is part of an atheistic and theistic belief...imo.


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 September 2008)

noirua said:


> .., therefore, you are Protestant.



If you're calling me a Protestant,  ..
hey noi , I protest!


----------



## noirua (4 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> If you're calling me a Protestant,  ..
> hey noi , I protest!



I'm afraid that's the rules, you're a Protestant, and that's that. 
Also,  as an act of revenge, anyone protesting will be sent on an iron ship back to London.  All ships will leave from Botany Bay.


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 September 2008)

noirua said:


> I'm afraid that's the rules, you're a Protestant, and that's that.
> Also,  as an act of revenge, anyone protesting will be sent on an iron ship back to London.  All ships will leave from Botany Bay.



and for ten quid I bet lol .


----------



## noirua (4 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> and for ten quid I bet lol .



No chance, Rudd & Co can't afford it now, so you'll have to work your passage. All assets will be confiscated and used to give all those remaining lessons in Mandarin. The Union Jack is about to be removed from the flag and a red moon put in the corner.


----------



## 2020hindsight (4 September 2008)

noirua said:


> The Union Jack is about to be removed from the flag



about time - or at least shrink the thing.
I hear the religious right Americans are gonna find a place on their flag for the bible.


----------



## noirua (4 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> about time - or at least shrink the thing.
> I hear the religious right Americans are gonna find a place on their flag for the bible.



I'm not surprised.  Sales of flags should rocket.
I can feel a verse coming on.

..begat not the words of a bigoted pagan; but his son, Commodus who succeeded him showed favour to them out of regard for Marcia, the honoured Empress. The numbers of faithfull exceedingly increased, during this calm, and many of the first rank enlisted themselves of which number was Apollonius, a Roman Senator. A person brought to holy scripture, versed in philosophy. He shall be an apologist by and in the sanctity of his manners. Such be the force of good example he would draw away from reproach and be brought to enlightenment. n...(111)a


----------



## Spanning Tree (4 September 2008)

> We live largely by the philosophical constructs of the Bible (or the modern Church's interpretation thereof).
> 
> We celebrate Easter, Christmas, give charity etc.



Actually, neither Easter nor Christmas are mentioned in the Bible. The two celebrations are pagan celebrations and are anti-biblical.


----------



## Sean K (4 September 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> Actually, neither Easter nor Christmas are mentioned in the Bible. The two celebrations are pagan celebrations and are anti-biblical.



Nice one ST. 

Our dogmatic Christians will hold the line however, with their 'facts'. That been......ummmmm....oh, there are none. 

Ooooops.


----------



## motorway (4 September 2008)

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 

 And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 

 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath. 

 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."


----------



## wayneL (4 September 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> Actually, neither Easter nor Christmas are mentioned in the Bible. The two celebrations are pagan celebrations and are *anti-biblical*.



That's never worried anyone.


----------



## Spanning Tree (5 September 2008)

> > Actually, neither Easter nor Christmas are mentioned in the Bible. The two celebrations are pagan celebrations and are anti-biblical.
> 
> 
> 
> That's never worried anyone.



Easter and Christmas in fact are end-of-harvest celebrations. Both celebrations are not actually celebrations of Jesus's birth or death. Rather, they are celebrations of fertility. Ancient pagans used to engage in public orgies during Christmas and Easter. During these days it was okay for men to walk around and rape women on the streets. The Easter bunny represents high fertility because rabbits are known to breed a lot. The egg represents new life, yet another symbol of sex and orgies.


----------



## bunyip (6 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Adam lived 930 years
> Seth lived 912 years
> Enos lived 905 years
> ...
> ...




Adam lived 930 years eh? Impressive. Just goes to show that exercise is good for you and promotes longevity. Adam must have got plenty of exercise in building the ark, catching all those millions of pairs of every living creature on Earth, loading them on to his boat, gathering 6 weeks supply of food for them, feeding them every day, cleaning up after them, and generally keeping them in good health so they could repopulate the world with their respective species after the flood was over and Adam deposited them back on Terra Firma.

All this time I've been wondering why Adam, despite being an intrepid man of considerable fortitude, didn't drop dead from exhaustion, when in fact all that hard work had the opposite effect and he lived to the ripe old age of 930!

I'm just about to head off on my daily 1 hour walk. Except that after reading about Adam and his 930 year lifespan, I'm going to crank it up to 2 hours a day from now on. Maybe even 3 hours.


----------



## bunyip (6 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> Adam lived 930 years eh? Impressive. Just goes to show that exercise is good for you and promotes longevity. Adam must have got plenty of exercise in building the ark, catching all those millions of pairs of every living creature on Earth, loading them on to his boat, gathering 6 weeks supply of food for them, feeding them every day, cleaning up after them, and generally keeping them in good health so they could repopulate the world with their respective species after the flood was over and Adam deposited them back on Terra Firma.
> 
> All this time I've been wondering why Adam, despite being an intrepid man of considerable fortitude, didn't drop dead from exhaustion, when in fact all that hard work had the opposite effect and he lived to the ripe old age of 930!
> 
> I'm just about to head off on my daily 1 hour walk. Except that after reading about Adam and his 930 year lifespan, I'm going to crank it up to 2 hours a day from now on. Maybe even 3 hours.




Oops....I was thinking of Noah, not Adam. 
Wonder how long Noah lived then....did he replicate the example set by Adam, and live 900 years or so, or did he die of burnout after the ark campaign was over.

And I wonder what was the secret of Adam's longevity. Lots of exercise perhaps - he must have fathered lots of children in his 930 years - you don't get much rest when your kids have always got you out and about, doing something with them. 
Simple, healthy food maybe.......no McDonalds back in those days.
In any event, I don't think I want to live 900 years...I'll be happy with 100, and good health all the way through.


----------



## bunyip (11 September 2008)

Last weekend I went to a rock concert that featured some of the biggest rock 'n roll names from the sixties....Little Patti, Johnny Young, The Delltones, Normie Rowe, among others.
It was sensational....those performers have lost none of their ability.
One of the songs performed by Normie Rowe was 'It Ain't Necessarily So'. The words go something like this.....

_It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable 
To read in the bible
They ain't necessarily so

It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
The things that your preacher
Is likely to teach ya
They ain't necessarily so_

When Normie Rowe first released this song back in the sixties there was a storm of outrage from Christians who labelled the song 'blasphemy, disgusting', and called for it to be banned.
Although I was a practicing Christian at the time, I thought it was pretty damn weak, arrogant and  immature of Christians to attempt to deny someone the right to question their beliefs and their book.
Even today there are Christians who childishly get hot under the collar when anyone questions their views.


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 September 2008)

bunyip,  yep no doubt the Gershwin's had a few windows broken as well 


> ARTIST: George and Ira Gershwin
> TITLE: It Ain't Necessarily So
> (Porgy and Bess]
> 
> ...


----------



## bunyip (11 September 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> bunyip,  yep no doubt the Gershwin's had a few windows broken as well
> 
> Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
> Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
> ...




Geez I love that last bit!


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> Geez I love that last bit!




Yep , you wonder if 
a) they lived 900 odd years each,  or
b) that they went gar-gar and forgot what year it was, or
c) it just felt like 900 years 

by the way , here's the exact date of creation - to the day - if'n you're interested   

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=200761&highlight=monday#post200761

*23 Oct 4004 BC *!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher

ahhhh .... 4004 BC !!!  mmm - you know sonny ,  mmm you don't get days that that any more.... mmm apples,  mmm, figleafs,  a good gust of wind ,  mmm   - they were the days


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 September 2008)

> http://www.rhymezone.com/r/gwic.cgi?Word=begat&Path=holy/oldtestament/genesis/4//
> 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and
> said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
> 
> ...




Question then becomes,  who amongst us "knew" his/her wife/husband before they were married 

(the bloke next door reckons he doesn't know his to this day lol)

Then again my son reckons he knows hundreds of girls lol


----------



## Duckman#72 (12 September 2008)

"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones" Proverbs 17.22

Certainly does for me.

Duckman


----------



## bunyip (12 September 2008)

Duckman#72 said:


> "A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones" Proverbs 17.22
> 
> Certainly does for me.
> 
> Duckman




Duckman....I like that one a lot. The bible contains many words of wisdom. Now, if we could just take all the rubbish out of it and leave the good stuff, we'd have a great book.


----------



## dalek (12 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> Duckman....I like that one a lot. The bible contains many words of wisdom. Now, if we could just take all the rubbish out of it and leave the good stuff, we'd have a great book.




Maybe, but a very thin book.


----------



## noirua (18 September 2008)

Jesus Christ through the money lenders (Banks) out of the temple...and there shall be a wailing and a gnashing of teeth.
- in the Bible somewhere


----------



## a5e0i (18 September 2008)

Did Lao Tzu opt out of life or did he achieve something in his meditations? I like to think he achieved great things. For in waiting upon the Lord He whispers to us, unlocking the secrets to successful living.


----------



## bassmanpete (18 September 2008)

Jesus Christ through the money lenders (Banks) out of the temple​
Being the pedant that I am I can't let this through without comment - it should be threw, the past tense of throw.


----------



## wayneL (18 September 2008)

a5e0i said:


> Did Lao Tzu opt out of life or did he achieve something in his meditations? I like to think he achieved great things. For in waiting upon the Lord He whispers to us, unlocking the secrets to successful living.



I think Lao Tzu was a great observer. 

I don't think he was a hermit in a cave, otherwise how could he observe? He was well known enough to have followers right across China and well known enough for Confucius to come and visit him.

No way was he an opter outer.

But fame was not his game, balance was. This contrasts with Confucius who was more widely known.

Great? Yes. But probably not in the way the western mind thinks of greatness.


----------



## noirua (18 September 2008)

bassmanpete said:


> Jesus Christ through the money lenders (Banks) out of the temple​
> Being the pedant that I am I can't let this through without comment - it should be threw, the past tense of throw.



Should it not be "...past without comment".  As it has already gone through and therefore has past.:

Anyway, I shall look carefully at my through, throws and threw in future, thanks.


----------



## bunyip (21 September 2008)

A well known biblical quote is - 'The meek shall inherit the earth'.

I think most of us are well aware of how unrealistic that one is!


----------



## bunyip (26 September 2008)

_'If your son is a drunkard, you should take him outside the city gates and stone him to death'._

Geez, that one's a bit rugged! I would have been stoned to death a few times! Like most young blokes I got drunk with my mates on more than one occasion. Not that we ever did any harm to anyone or anything....bit different to today's drunks.
These days I hardly drink at all. 

But getting back to that biblical quote, it's typical of the hypocrisy and double standards that are common in the bible. 
On the one hand, one of the bible's commandments is 'Thou shall not kill'. On the other hand, it tells you to kill your son if he gets drunk.


----------



## Greg71 (26 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> _'If your son is a drunkard, you should take him outside the city gates and stone him to death'._
> 
> Geez, that one's a bit rugged! I would have been stoned to death a few times! Like most young blokes I got drunk with my mates on more than one occasion. Not that we ever did any harm to anyone or anything....bit different to today's drunks.
> These days I hardly drink at all.
> ...




Because you don't understand the bible, you are quick to call God a hypocrite.

The modern day equivalent of what you are calling hypocrisy is like calling the guy that flicks the switch on the electric chair a murderer.


----------



## bunyip (26 September 2008)

Greg71 said:


> Because you don't understand the bible, you are quick to call God a hypocrite.
> 
> The modern day equivalent of what you are calling hypocrisy is like calling the guy that flicks the switch on the electric chair a murderer.




Greg.....Can you show me where my post made mention of God?

Are you disagreeing that it's hypocritical for the bible to say 'Thou shall not kill', then a bit further into the book, to give a directive to kill your son if he gets drunk?
Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy in that? Yes or no, Greg. No airy fairy answers, no comparing to present day situations. Sure there's plenty of hypocrisy in today's world. But this is the bible we're discussing, not the world of today.
So I ask you again.....in view of the bible commanding us 'Thou shalt not kill, is it or is it not gross hypocrisy for it to then say 'Kill your drunkard son'? Yes or no?


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 September 2008)

Greg71 said:


> Because you don't understand the bible, you are quick to call God a hypocrite.



maybe some would call him a hypnotist first.


----------



## wayneL (26 September 2008)

Bear in mind also that the Bible was written by humans, the worst hypocrites in the world.


----------



## Greg71 (26 September 2008)

bunyip said:


> Greg.....Can you show me where my post made mention of God?
> 
> Are you disagreeing that it's hypocritical for the bible to say 'Thou shall not kill', then a bit further into the book, to give a directive to kill your son if he gets drunk?
> Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy in that? Yes or no, Greg. No airy fairy answers, no comparing to present day situations. Sure there's plenty of hypocrisy in today's world. But this is the bible we're discussing, not the world of today.
> So I ask you again.....in view of the bible commanding us 'Thou shalt not kill, is it or is it not gross hypocrisy for it to then say 'Kill your drunkard son'? Yes or no?




No.

To save waiting for your next post asking me to explain, I'll do it now.
You and I both know it is wrong to kill another person. It's "morally" wrong. Even before the nation of Israel existed, people knew it was wrong to kill. It's just the way it is in this universe, or if you will, God is/was always the same.

I'm assuming you're of non-christian belief, which is your choice. 

Unless you have read the bible completely and studied it whether it be from an official course of some kind or through reading material through bible scholars, it would be a stretch to expect you to have a detailed knowledge of it. Would that be a fair statement? I wouldn't expect you to know Elliot Wave analysis either unless you'd studied that. 

I'm no bible scholar, but I have some knowledge.

Here's how it works. You have the nation of Israel, a nation seperated from other nations by God, to show his mighty works etc. and to show that he is the living God, not a statue like the surrounding heathen nations worship, like the Egyptians and so on. 

They go through the slavery bit in Egypt, then the wilderness, then just before entering the promised land, God hands down the law through Moses (perhaps you've heard of the ten commandments?). Moses comes down from the mountain, "here's the law etc". 

A bit later, God causes Moses to write the "law of ordinances", containing some 600+ rulings and judgements. This written law, the law of Moses, included all of the ceremonial stuff like how to dismember a bullock or cow or whatever and sacrifice it on an altar in the temple, or tabernacle as it was then (a portable temple "tent"). These "ceremonial" laws were to atone for sins that may have been committed. You'd bring one of your animals, or a cake, depending on the sin and your financial position, and give it to the priest who would sacrifice a part of it and eat the rest as payment.

So, we have the ten commandments with "thou shalt not kill" and so on. Don't kill, don't steal, don't covet etc. This was known as the "moral" law. Effectively, it's all split into 3 parts, the moral, civil and ceremonial law. These 3 parts were all part of Israel's law as a nation.

The bible is a compilation of many books written by many different authors. The amazing part of it is that it doesn't contradict itself. If it seems to, it is because one of us feeble minded humans has interpreted it incorrectly.

The moral code says that an Israelite is not to kill another Israelite. Yet, the civil law says that if two people are caught in adultery they are to be stoned to death. Yet another apparent contradiction. 

I won't draw a parallel to make it easier for you if that is how you prefer it. The civil/ ceremonial law contained 600+ items. All of it combined was designed for how God wanted Israel as a nation to function. If someone did this, then this is the punishment. If they do that, then this is the punishment. It was their law. They didn't have a police force, so the people, as a God-fearing nation, just followed instructions and stoned the perpetrators to death. It was a way to keep the nation consecrated and holy unto God. Acceptable if you will.

The system of government that Israel had is known as a "theocracy", that is God as the head of state. He gave all the rulings in advance, to Moses, who wrote them down. It was God's law.

So, if you are saying that the bible contradicts itself and is full of hypocrisy, you are calling God a hypocrite (although perhaps ignorantly due to lack of exposure to certain information, until now) because he is the one that orchestrated the book to be written, and it is basically about him, unless you haven't realised that as well. Read it sometime, you'll find God mentioned throughout.

Both the ten commandments and the civil/ ceremonial laws for Israel came from God. If you are saying that there's hypocrisy in it because you think one verse that says don't kill contradicts another verse that says to kill, you are assigning the hypocrisy to God, because he is the one that made the laws up.

Don't worry, the Jews caused a perfect, innocent man to be crucified through the very same ignorance, so you're not alone.


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 September 2008)

Greg71 said:


> ... God hands down the law through Moses (perhaps you've heard of the ten commandments?). Moses comes down from the mountain, "here's the law etc".
> 
> A bit later, God causes Moses to write the "law of ordinances", containing some 600+ rulings and judgements. .. .




is that something like ... 
"Your honour, I'd like to refer you to that famous case "J. Christ Versus the Moneylenders Guild, 30AD" ...."

sorry, happy hour comment here Wayne. 

"Moneylenders Guild represented on that occasion by Chief Moneylender Turnbull"


----------



## Greg71 (26 September 2008)

Again,

1. *Ten Commandments* - the moral law, which you could use literally in today's world except for the sabbath one.

2. *The Civil Law* - If someone does this, this is the judgement etc.

3. *The Ceremonial Law* - If someone sins, this is how to atone for it (remit the sin)

When the bible characters refer to "the law", sometimes they mean the ten commandments (like in new testament epistles), sometimes they mean the civil/  ceremonial law. It's all "the law". 

The ten commandments told them how to behave, the rest of it expanded on that and told them what to do if they didn't. 

God bless.


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 September 2008)

Interpretation ?  as numbered as denominations.


----------



## Greg71 (26 September 2008)

Wysiwyg said:


> Interpretation ?  as numbered as denominations.




Exactly. 500+ denominations, all from one bible, yet the bible says, "one faith, one baptism".


----------



## Julia (26 September 2008)

Greg71 said:


> No.
> 
> To save waiting for your next post asking me to explain, I'll do it now.
> You and I both know it is wrong to kill another person. It's "morally" wrong. Even before the nation of Israel existed, people knew it was wrong to kill. It's just the way it is in this universe, or if you will, God is/was always the same.
> ...



Greg, I'm sure you feel you were explaining your apparently contradictory response to Bunyip's simple question clearly.  Perhaps I'm very stupid and lacking in comprehension but I'm now more confused than ever.

Just one question:  how do you know all this?   Isn't what you say just the regurgitation of someone's interpretation of the collection of stories from various human beings which constitutes the Bible?

I remember an instance some years ago when - in an attempt to aid me in my understanding of schizophrenia - a psychiatrist introduced me to one of the hospital's long term patients.  He was a good looking bloke in his late 30's, pleasant and well mannered, happy to talk.   Very articulate.   He spent half an hour describing how he was Christ, the Son of God, and all the reasons supporting this belief.   Had I been a creature from Mars, e.g. with no prior understanding of religion, the Bible and associated beliefs, I would have completely believed him.  

Some people will find this relevant to the topic.  Others won't.


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## bunyip (26 September 2008)

Greg.... For the record....I was raised as a Christian and I attended Sunday school and church every week from an early age. After leaving school I enrolled in bible study classes and studied the bible at some length. Although some of it is getting a bit hazy now, I still have a pretty reasonable knowledge of what the bible contains.

You're quoting all this biblical stuff as if it's proven fact. I suggest to you that there's no proof whatsoever of the existence of God. And if you think otherwise, then perhaps you can furnish us with your proof.
I think you're assuming a hell of a lot by saying 'God did this or God did that. What you've done is read something and then accept it as being true, however unlikely it may be.
You made me smile with your claim that the bible doesn't contradict itself, and if it seems to, it's because one of us feeble minded humans has interpreted it incorrectly. It's actually quite amusing that you make such a claim. Nevertheless, you are of course entitled to your views, which only go to prove that we don't all see things the same way.

The bible is held up by Christians as being a set of rules for decent living...a sort of road map, if you like, to guide us through the journey of life and to help us safely negotiate all the trials and tribulations and hiccups along the way.
And yet it glorifies and encourages various unsavoury behaviours, violence and murder among them. Great set of rules! Great road map....just what we need for clean and decent living!

Greg, you've gone to some trouble in giving us your views, and you've done so in a courteous manner. Also you've been quite honest with me in saying that you don't see any hypocrisy in what the bible says. I admit that instead of such a forthright answer, I was expecting that you'd beat around the bush without really answering the question.
Thanks for taking the time to post.


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## wayneL (26 September 2008)

I have this theory (hatched somewhere on this board) that the Manna that the Israelites were into was in fact, mushrooms; and perhaps some of them were hallucinogenic toadstools.

Would explain a lot... burning bushes etc.
I must admit to have seen burning bushes once on a trip to Bali.


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## Greg71 (26 September 2008)

Sorry if i get a bit "evangelistic". Maybe I'm operating on a lower level of thought. If my bank balance is a reflection of my intelligence, this may be the case. I think I need to start smoking pot or something.


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## Julia (26 September 2008)

Greg71 said:


> Sorry if i get a bit "evangelistic". Maybe I'm operating on a lower level of thought. If my bank balance is a reflection of my intelligence, this may be the case. I think I need to start smoking pot or something.



Greg, I don't think you were being evangelistic.  Seemed to me you were making your best effort to genuinely explain why you believe what you do.
It's just a really hard ask to expect those of us who don't accept the absolute veracity of the Bible to regard it in the same light as you do.

All the best
Julia


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## Greg71 (26 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> I have this theory (hatched somewhere on this board) that the Manna that the Israelites were into was in fact, mushrooms; and perhaps some of them were hallucinogenic toadstools.
> 
> Would explain a lot... burning bushes etc.
> I must admit to have seen burning bushes once on a trip to Bali.




Maybe they were magic mushies, but maybe getting them all on it was God's way of opening their consciousness to the realm of the spirit. Who knows. We can only theorize to a point, until we just either take it as happening as it says it did or going insane.

All I know is that one day I'll die. Like Lotto, you've got to have a ticket to have any chance of winning. Does that make sense? Lotto/ believe...


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## wayneL (26 September 2008)

Greg71 said:


> Maybe they were magic mushies, but maybe getting them all on it was God's way of opening their consciousness to the realm of the spirit. Who knows. We can only theorize to a point, until we just either take it as happening as it says it did or going insane.
> 
> All I know is that one day I'll die. Like Lotto, you've got to have a ticket to have any chance of winning. Does that make sense? Lotto/ believe...




Not an unreasonable theory. Many use ayahuasca and other hallucinogens explicitly for that purpose.


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## Sean K (26 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> Not an unreasonable theory. Many use ayahuasca and other hallucinogens explicitly for that purpose.



Yes, the plants are supposed to open you up to another reality. 

But even the Shamans may interpret the experiences you have with ayahuasca differently. One ayahuasca experience I had with a 'master', where I saw lots of cats interpreted this to mean my spirit had descended from the feline world. I told this to another and he said that I was simply seeing more deeply into the alternate reality in the Chavin tradition....whatever that means... (felines are very important to them)

Seems to be a lot of interpretation required in any mystical/religious experience.

I wouldn't be surprised if many 'religious' experiences have been hallucinations, or schitzophrenic experiences. This has been written about in a book called, 'Profits, Cults, and Madmen', (I think - forgot the authors names) by a couple of evolutionary phychiatrists. Interesting reading if you find a copy.


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## Greg71 (26 September 2008)

You know the movie "The Secret", there's this guy James Ray. He's the one that explains the big genie. He's big on shamans and all that, he's been made a member of various tribes and so on.

In an audio I downloaded from somewhere, he tells of an experience he had with one tribe, where they mix two plant extracts that gives a pretty wild experience. He thought he was literally going to die when he first did it. It's got something to do with the pineal gland, which is used only at birth and just before death. Was interesting listening. When he asked them how they knew which plants to use, they told him that the plants told them. Cool.


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 September 2008)

kennas said:


> Yes, the plants are supposed to open you up to another reality.
> 
> But even the Shamans may interpret the experiences you have with ayahuasca differently. One ayahuasca experience I had with a 'master', where I saw lots of cats interpreted this to mean my spirit had descended from the feline world. I told this to another and he said that I was simply seeing more deeply into the alternate reality in the Chavin tradition....whatever that means... (felines are very important to them)
> 
> ...




Be careful in South America mate.

The campesinos have a habit of taking godbothering fairly literally.

You should watch out for the three nail trick.

gg


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## dhukka (26 September 2008)

kennas said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if many 'religious' experiences have been hallucinations, or schitzophrenic experiences. This has been written about in a book called, 'Profits, Cults, and Madmen', (I think - forgot the authors names) by a couple of evolutionary phychiatrists. Interesting reading if you find a copy.




Another excellent book on this topic and probably one of the first was written in the early 19th century by William James called: *The Varieties of Religous Experience*. You can read it for free here.


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## bunyip (26 September 2008)

Greg71 said:


> Maybe they were magic mushies, but maybe getting them all on it was God's way of opening their consciousness to the realm of the spirit. Who knows. We can only theorize to a point, until we just either take it as happening as it says it did or going insane.
> 
> All I know is that one day I'll die. Like Lotto, you've got to have a ticket to have any chance of winning. Does that make sense? Lotto/ believe...




Greg, I have a problem with 'take it as happening as it says it did, or go insane.'.

I don't accept anything at face value. I used to do so as a kid, just like any kid does, but as I grew up and developed the ability to think for myself, I found myself increasingly questioning the claims that were being made about God. And the more I questioned the claims, the less they stacked up as having any proof, or even any probability. In day to day life I saw many examples of where the claims being made about God were simply not true.

People like myself, Julia, Wayne and others, as intelligent, thinking people, are just not prepared to accept claims that are highly improbable and have no proven basis of fact.
Look, I'd love to believe in God. I'd love to embrace the Christian view that we can have an invincible champion called God on our side. Someone who can help us face our worst enemies without fear, knowing that we'll always come out OK, someone who will never forsake us, someone who will always honour the 'ask, and you will receive' promise. Someone who will ensure that we have an absolutely wonderful life if we believe in him totally. If I had evidence that God exists and is everything Christians claim him to be, then believe me, I'd be his greatest fan. I mean, who wouldn't want a mate like that? I certainly would. We all would. It's a wonderful thought, so wonderful in fact, that many people grasp it in both hands and lock on to it so tightly that they start to imagine it's true. And when the evidence suggests otherwise, they simply shut out any realities they find unpalatable, and just go on believing what they want to believe.

Well sorry, but I can't be like that.


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## Sean K (27 September 2008)

dhukka said:


> Another excellent book on this topic and probably one of the first was written in the early 19th century by William James called: *The Varieties of Religous Experience*. You can read it for free here.



Cheers, will check it out.

Um, did I spell prophet as profit back there?  LOL Must be the Uruguayan air.

The author was Stevens and it's actually called Prophets Cults and Madness and is at Amazon here.


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## wayneL (27 September 2008)

kennas said:


> Cheers, will check it out.
> 
> Um, did I spell prophet as profit back there?  LOL Must be the Uruguayan air.
> 
> The author was Stevens and it's actually called Prophets Cults and Madness and is at Amazon here.




I here thay surve a descent stake doun their.


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## 2020hindsight (27 September 2008)

From The Book of Genesis..... of the Bible for Catlovers 


> Adam and Eve said, "Lord, when we were in the garden, you walked with us every day.  Now we do not see you any more.  We are lonesome here, and it is difficult for us to remember how much you love us."
> 
> God answered, "I will create a companion for you who will stay with you and who will be a reflection of my love for you, so that you will love me even when you cannot see me.  Regardless of how selfish or childish or unlovable you may be, this new companion will accept you as you are and will love you as I do, in spite of yourselves."
> 
> ...


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## Sean K (28 September 2008)

wayneL said:


> I here thay surve a descent stake doun their.



Yep, it's all thay surve. 

It's a signiphicant part of there kulture hear. Stake, stake and more stake.....

Makes ow Ozzie BBQ look pretty bluddy lame actually....


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## 2020hindsight (8 November 2008)

"West Wing" - Biblical Quotes


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## Garpal Gumnut (10 November 2008)

<< Matthew 24:28 >>
*
"Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/7718587.stm


Monks brawl at the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem

gg


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## orr (10 November 2008)

<< 09/11 andrew robb MP>>

"_Vengeance be the firing squad, say'th the Robb_"


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## numbercruncher (13 December 2008)

> "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." - Revelation 18


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## 2020hindsight (13 December 2008)

> " ... that ye be not partakers of her sins, ..." - Revelations



Well there sure have been some revelations over the years in that regard 
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HZmHC75FDqQ  "Ted Haggard Is Completely Heterosexual" by Roy Zimmerman

 Ted Haggard Is Completely Heterosexual" 

"an abomination ...  like cursing your parents, trimming your beard, eating pork etc "


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## noirua (13 December 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Well there sure have been some revelations over the years in that regard
> 
> "an abomination ...  like cursing your parents, trimming your beard, eating pork etc "



:topic That reminds me, Irish Pork exports have been banned because dodgy chemicals were found in Pork from certain farms. However, trimming your beard and cursing your parents are still allowed, the latter being punishable only with a penance.


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## Terry Dactil (5 January 2009)

I don't know why you lot are still arguing about the Christian religion.
It seems to be quite simple to understand.


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