# Fighting speeding fines



## Timmy (30 August 2009)

Don't just cop parking and speeding fines, seems fighting them has a good success rate:

Motorists who appeal fines save millions:_
almost a third of all drivers who argued their case were proven correct._


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## freddy2 (30 August 2009)

Depends how much you value your time. Given the figures in the article the average fine is about $150, and 1 in 3 chance of success gives expected value of making an appeal $50. For most people it's irrational to appeal.


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## Happy (30 August 2009)

A lot of people complain about unfair fines, but when I drive just under speed limit there is virtually no car that would travel behind me and looks that maximum allowable speed is their minimum.

Most drive 5 to 15 km per hour above speed limit, hence $150 average speeding fines.

What I am saying: I think people do not realise that 10% speed limit grace doesn't apply any more and best solution to avoid fine would be to stay under the MAXIMUM SPEED LIMIT, I know hard.

Personally I think that Police is little bit desperate to issue fines as 5% to 10% error is logical, but if they don’t give an inch, what is the point in tinkering in danger area?


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## Timmy (30 August 2009)

freddy2 said:


> Depends how much you value your time. Given the figures in the article the average fine is about $150, and 1 in 3 chance of success gives expected value of making an appeal $50. For most people it's irrational to appeal.




Expected value of avoiding fine .... $50

Expected value of not losing demerit points ... $500 (?)

Joy of sticking it to the man .... priceless


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## knocker (30 August 2009)

Well I got done a few years back doing 60 in a thirty construction zone. The country hick cop was after money. And he asked me why I was speeding. I said I saw the 60 kmh sign, which was within distance and started to accelerate. Then he asked do you work. I said sure I work. 

In the end I told the Sergeant to go away and do something useful.:


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## cuttlefish (30 August 2009)

Timmy said:
			
		

> Expected value of not losing demerit points ... $500 (?)



I agree Timmy - its not the money its the points thats the problem.

I don't see how pulling people over for doing 5% over the speed limit is going to have any effect whatsoever on the road toll.


Also if traffic is flowing at speed limit+5% or speed limit+10% and one driver sits at speed limit-5% that driver is presenting a greater danger than the other drivers imo.   (which is also why I find the speed restrictions for learners and p-platers on highways quite ridiculous and dangerous for those drivers).

The only way to succesfully address the road toll is to build safer roads - dual carriage ways,  adequate distance and/or safety wires or barriers between traffic flowing in opposite directions, wider lanes,  improved road surfaces and camber/gradient, better signage,  better segregation of heavy and light vehicles, road side barriers to prevent vehicles leaving the road and hitting trees or going over embankments.

Add to that: safer cars, sensible and practical speed limits that allow drivers to use some discretion, better driver education, and law enforcement focused on removing dangerous drivers from the road, not on giving Joe and Martha a kick in the guts financially for taking the kids up the coast on a long weekend.


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## jono1887 (30 August 2009)

opportunity cost of your time... it would depend on  how valuable is your time..


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## wayneL (30 August 2009)

Guys,

If you really want to have fun with the authorities, there is arguably (VERY arguably) a big loophole in English common law, on which Oz law is based.

http://www.truthmovementaustralia.com.au/2009/01/liveinterview20091/

Also google "freeman on the land".

N.B. FYI only, I don't follow this course of action, but know people who do.


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## Sunder (30 August 2009)

Timmy said:


> Expected value of not losing demerit points ... $500 (?)




Be careful with this one, just because you get the fine revoked, doesn't mean the demerit points are also revoked. It can depend on why the fine was revoked. If it's a Section 10 for any reason (Offense proved, but no penalty applied), you still cop demerit points.


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## Aargh! (31 August 2009)

cuttlefish said:


> The only way to succesfully address the road toll is to build safer roads - dual carriage ways,  adequate distance and/or safety wires or barriers between traffic flowing in opposite directions, wider lanes,  improved road surfaces and camber/gradient, better signage,  better segregation of heavy and light vehicles, road side barriers to prevent vehicles leaving the road and hitting trees or going over embankments.




I once believed this was the solution as well cuttlefish but where I now live I've seen that this is not the simple solution it seems. The roads here are fantastic, wide lanes, dedicated truck lanes, not a single pot hole, side barriers, separation of opposing traffic, yet it's close to the highest road deaths per capita in the world.

The MOST important thing is driver training, education and law enforcement. Even if the roads were crap people would adjust to the conditions and drive accordingly. 

As for just going 5-10% over the limit... it's not ok. It doesn't mean it will take you 5-10% further to pull up. The velocity-acceleration relationship isn't linear but exponential.


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## Mr J (31 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Guys,
> 
> If you really want to have fun with the authorities, there is arguably (VERY arguably) a big loophole in English common law, on which Oz law is based.
> 
> http://www.truthmovementaustralia.com.au/2009/01/liveinterview20091/




I've been listening to this out of curiosity. The bit about not having jurisdiction is mind-blowing if true, and it would seem to be if he's wiggled his way out of court. If true, why isn't this far more wide-spread?

Anyway, I'm up to the bit "They say I was speeding, and I remember when the pirate came up to me; when the pirate tried to first board my vessel...".


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## RazzaDazzla (31 August 2009)

wayneL said:


> Guys,
> 
> If you really want to have fun with the authorities, there is arguably (VERY arguably) a big loophole in English common law, on which Oz law is based.
> 
> ...




This probably deserves it's own thread, anyway...

This is so bizarre! I came across a file called Esoteric Agenda last week via a comment on a mates Facebook page. I watched it out of curiosity and while I didn't agree with ALL of it, some of it did ring a few bells in my mind.

Then, this morning while eating my cornflakes I stumbled across this thread. I listened to the interview and I even found a copy of his book Classified (David Icke writing as Thomas Anderson).

I've had a flick through it... It's very similar to his interview but talks of a collapse of the world and the need for stockpiling of food for mid to late 2009.

I also looked at Wikipedia about David Icke; Colourful character... Particiuallry the part about Reptilian Humanoids.

Anyway, as I said, may be worth a thread on it's own.


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## awg (31 August 2009)

speeding fine = tax

at least in NSW, govt is broke

BTW, you can write to the Court, (instead of appearing in person, which is the waste of a whole day)..make sure your written submission is by registered mail

I got a big fine halved.

be aware , they can increase the penalty as well.

You need to base your submission on some good reasoning, obviously.

I dont think magistrates are an overly forgiving lot. ( I used to attend court as part of my job, the clients are mostly utter rabble)

I own very powerful cars, and used to drive fast, now I stick to the speed limit.... can go 0 to 60 as hard as you want though

I dont know what made me change, but now I concentrate all my efforts on driving safely


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## Happy (31 August 2009)

awg said:


> ...
> 
> I own very powerful cars, and used to drive fast, now I stick to the speed limit.... can go 0 to 60 as hard as you want though
> 
> *I dont know what made me change*, but now I concentrate all my efforts on driving safely






Sometimes close shave gives wake-up call, sometimes loss of loved ones but there are probably thousand other reasons.

It would be nice if you could pin down the cause; this could help to save countless lives.


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## ojm (31 August 2009)

awg said:


> I own very powerful cars, and used to drive fast, now I stick to the speed limit.... can go 0 to 60 as hard as you want though;




Pretty sure in Victoria if you do that they will impound your car for hooning even if you don't break the speed limit but accelerate too quickly..


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## Judd (31 August 2009)

Aargh! said:


> As for just going 5-10% over the limit... it's not ok. It doesn't mean it will take you 5-10% further to pull up. The velocity-acceleration relationship isn't linear but exponential.




Yep.  The old kinetic energy to potential law.  Double your speed, quadruple your breaking distance.

Have fun fooling around with this calculator (don't blame me for any results; I only used it, I didn't build it)

http://www.auburn.nsw.gov.au/inc/calc.htm

And this makes for an interesting read:

http://www.science.org.au/nova/058/058key.htm


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## GumbyLearner (31 August 2009)

This bloke tried and couldn't get away with it.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-94856360.html


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## Beej (31 August 2009)

Happy said:


> A lot of people complain about unfair fines, but when I drive just under speed limit there is virtually no car that would travel behind me and looks that maximum allowable speed is their minimum.
> 
> Most drive 5 to 15 km per hour above speed limit, hence $150 average speeding fines.
> 
> ...




How do you know the speedo in YUOR car is accurate? In my experience (checking cars with GPS and also involved with speedo calibration on dyno's etc in the past) most cars speedo's read 5-10% faster than the car is actually going at 100km/h. Especially so with Jap cars. So to someone with a calibrated speedo (or who knows what the error is), may be sailing past you while doing the actual speed limit when you are actually doing 10 km/h under and you don't realise it....

I have tested this theory many times by the way, driven through radar traps, past speed camera's etc at what I have worked out is the actual speed of my cars, even if the speedo says I am 10 over or whatever. Never got a ticket or seen the cops bat an eyelid when doing this.

PS: For those talking about braking distances and inverse square laws for kinetic energy/stopping distances etc, does that mean if I drive a sports car with superior braking/shorter stopping distances than the average car I should be allowed to drive at a faster speed, as it is just as "safe"???? 

Cheers,

Beej


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## Happy (31 August 2009)

Beej said:


> *How do you know the speedo in YUOR car is accurate? *In my experience (checking cars with GPS and also involved with speedo calibration on dyno's etc in the past) most cars speedo's read 5-10% faster than the car is actually going at 100km/h. Especially so with Jap cars. So to someone with a calibrated speedo (or who knows what the error is), may be sailing past you while doing the actual speed limit when you are actually doing 10 km/h under and you don't realise it....
> 
> ...
> 
> ...





Well, I have my car speeds tested often enough to take in account wearing tyres, but why bother arguing if you and I know how people drive.

As to your superior brakes, just make sure car behind you is far enough.


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## awg (31 August 2009)

Happy said:


> Sometimes close shave gives wake-up call, sometimes loss of loved ones but there are probably thousand other reasons.
> 
> It would be nice if you could pin down the cause; this could help to save countless lives.





I will have a go then.

1) Age

2) I work on vehicles for a hobby, this has given me a good understanding of dynamics of vehicle engineering & handling, in a way that average MV owners cannot know

3) There was one incident.... I was driving at the speed limit on the Pacific Hwy, (100kmph) it was raining, suddenly hit a large patch of oil, on a sweeping bend, in a front wheel drive car. Coming in the opposite direction was a Mack Semi.

If I had been going 5km faster, or had 1% less concentration or skill, I would have been dead meat.

This made me realise you can die thru no fault of your own.

The only protection against this fate is to develop superior defensive driving skills.

My sis-in-law has been hit 3 times by drivers running red lights

I dont proceed thru a green light till I have checked both directions first.

I maintain the maximum possible spacing from other vehicles

Use the vehicle in front to shield from head ons

there is so many things you can do to maximise defensive driving, too many to list


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## Charlie Whiskey (31 August 2009)

Beej said:


> PS: For those talking about braking distances and inverse square laws for kinetic energy/stopping distances etc, does that mean if I drive a sports car with superior braking/shorter stopping distances than the average car I should be allowed to drive at a faster speed, as it is just as "safe"????




No, unless you're a superior specimen of the human race and reacts faster than most.


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## Judd (31 August 2009)

Beej said:


> PS: For those talking about braking distances and inverse square laws for kinetic energy/stopping distances etc, does that mean if I drive a sports car with superior braking/shorter stopping distances than the average car I should be allowed to drive at a faster speed, as it is just as "safe"????
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Beej




The total stopping distance of a vehicle is made up of 4 components.

    * Human Perception Time
    * Human Reaction Time
    * Vehicle Reaction Time
    * Vehicle Braking Capability

in regard to the last, it depends on factors such as;

    * the type of braking system,
    * brake pad material,
    * brake alignment,
    * tyre pressures,
    * tyre tread and grip,
    * vehicle weight,
    * suspension system,
    * the co-efficient of friction of the road surface,
    * wind speed,
    * slope of road,
    * surface smoothness
    * the braking technique applied by the driver.

Source:  Safe Drive Training

So while you may be really, really good, others around you are probably not and there are more of us than there are of you.  Go crunch the numbers on that one.


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## awg (31 August 2009)

As a matter of interest, race cars do not have ABS

reason: total stopping distance of a vehicle is less without them ( in the hands of a skilled driver)


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## Mr J (1 September 2009)

Charlie Whiskey said:


> No, unless you're a superior specimen of the human race and reacts faster than most.




In terms of reaction time, most people are muppets with their mind somewhere else. The typically stated reaction time is 1.5 seconds, but if one is paying attention and prepared it should be about half a second. Easier said than done of course.


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## Judd (1 September 2009)

Getting slightly back on topic, the aspect which I have an issue with is being booked for speeding when overtaking a slower car on a two lane road.  Example, you're doing 100 kph and the car in from is doing 95 kph.

To my way of thinking, assuming the road ahead is clear, it is better to overtake the slower car at say 120-130 kph as there is less time, hence possible danger, hanging out on the right hand side of the road than if you maintained your overtaking speed at 100 kph.  Yet I have been booked for applying that concept.  Annoyed me no end.


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## Happy (1 September 2009)

awg said:


> I will have a go then.
> 
> 1) Age
> 
> ...





Looks that not only you have enough reasons, but also you can think and be sensible about skills-odds.

And knowledge that unknown circumstances can adversely affect my chance of survival is main reason the way I drive kind of scared, concentrated and sort of on back foot, which gives me margin of safety on everything including my maximum speed.


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## AlterEgo (1 September 2009)

awg said:


> As a matter of interest, race cars do not have ABS
> 
> reason: total stopping distance of a vehicle is less without them ( in the hands of a skilled driver)




Yep

And ABS performs even worse on gravel surfaces, which is why rally cars don’t use it.


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## awg (1 September 2009)

AlterEgo said:


> Yep
> 
> And ABS performs even worse on gravel surfaces, which is why rally cars don’t use it.




I will tell you were ABS is downright lethal

In 4WD off-roading, attempt to to climb a very steep hill, decide it is too steep, so need to reverse back down.

Guess what, ABS wont stop the vehicle running away on a loose surface.

stop by hitting tree

This is especially so if u dont have very low range gears/transfer case

electronic descent control on expensive ones probably good

I also laugh when I see rear torque arm suspension, those things would get wrecked in 5 minutes on rocky washed out tracks I have been on


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## awg (1 September 2009)

Judd said:


> Getting slightly back on topic, the aspect which I have an issue with is being booked for speeding when overtaking a slower car on a two lane road.  Example, you're doing 100 kph and the car in from is doing 95 kph.
> 
> To my way of thinking, assuming the road ahead is clear, it is better to overtake the slower car at say 120-130 kph as there is less time, hence possible danger, hanging out on the right hand side of the road than if you maintained your overtaking speed at 100 kph.  Yet I have been booked for applying that concept.  Annoyed me no end.





I totally agree, as part of my defensive driving strategy, I commence my overtaking maneuver from WELL behind the vehicle, ensure vehicle RPM is near max torque range, accelerate hard, and complete the maneuver in the minimum time, often hit 120-130km+

This is so much safer than bunching up behind the car and poking your nose out, as I have time to pull out.

going to the snow this weekend..the cops are sons-of-bitches on that road


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## tigerboi (21 November 2010)

*Re:I beat a 118kmh ticket*

I recently beat a 118kmh ticket in a heavy vehicle at toronto NSW on the f3 i was given some very handy inside information.it took me 10 months to win & toronto police are that upset they fitted me up with an offensive laguage charge upon leaving court.

I have a copy of the standard operating procedures & guidelines so if anyone is interested i will upload the info.it is in a pdf.

my advice is go straight to the rear of your vehicle so you are on the in car video & stay there,be polite & DO NOT ADMIT TO SPEEDING reserve your defence for the court as i did. 

if you do any long distance driving get yourself a uhf radio to hear the location of the HWP....tb

LIDAR standard operating procedures


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