# Is Living in a Van Legal?



## Spanning Tree (20 September 2008)

I live in Melbourne, Australia and live in my parents' house. I'm 24 years old.

I believe house prices in Australia are overvalued and I don't want to buy a house because of fears of a house price correction. I also believe that debt is slavery and that a 30-year loan will add stress and ruin my life.

However, if my parents kick me out, where would I live? I have thought about buying a second-hand van (or a camper van) and sleeping in it. I could park it at shopping center car parks at night. To have showers and get exercise I can get gym membership and use the bathroom and exercise machines there. I can get a post office box for any letters. I can use my mobile phone.

My dad laughed when I told him this, telling me that this was illegal because I would be dodging land tax and council rates.

Is living in a van parked in a shopping center car park illegal? What law says I cannot do this? If it's illegal to be homeless, why aren't all the homeless in Melbourne in prison? 

While sleeping in the van, throughout the week I can move the van around from one shopping center to another to avoid suspicion. I can black out the back windows with a heavy tint.

Given that a house costs $400,000 and a second-hand Toyota Hiace costs $5,000, I foresee huge savings, which I will use to buy more shares. Right now I am thinking of buying shares in Woodside Petroleum.

If your camper van is comfortable enough I don't see why a house is necessary. Living in a van gives you the added benefit of flexibility in case you change jobs. I happen to believe that 90% of the value of houses exists because of marketing and cultural momentum that deludes everyone into thinking they need a home otherwise they are bums or trailer trash.

Is it illegal?


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## Smurf1976 (20 September 2008)

It's certainly not illegal to live in a van as such. 

But the shopping centre car park is private property and the owner has the right to decide who does and does not park there. Many wouldn't be too keen on a van staying there overnight and it's their land and their choice. Same with any other bit of land, including crown land.


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## Timmy (20 September 2008)

I think as long as you are not short selling shares from the van you should be fine.

(Sorry, no idea).


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## mobcat (20 September 2008)

Be preety cool for pulling chicks as well mate .......A bit like having a mobile work bench  LOL 

You would also save a quid on Taxis coming home from the clubs .......You could be onto something here ST i wonder if you can get a first Van owners grant


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## awg (20 September 2008)

lots of people live out of vehicles

shopping centres security would probly move u on if they notice

a blind eye is often turned by councils

backpackers use beachs etc

my opinion is it would be awfully ****ty tho

ever tried to sleep in a hot van?

or smelt a van with wet stuff from lots of rain

numerous other problems spring to mind

u would need to be desperate


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## mazzatelli1000 (20 September 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> I live in Melbourne, Australia and live in my parents' house. I'm 24 years old.
> 
> I believe house prices in Australia are overvalued and I don't want to buy a house because of fears of a house price correction. I also believe that debt is slavery and that a 30-year loan will add stress and ruin my life.
> 
> ...




Its not illegal, but a tough life to live. At least try and get a caravan, costs a bit more than your Toyota Hiace.


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## nioka (20 September 2008)

Most councils around Australia have pretty strict bylaws regarding this. Ask any grey nomad how much of a problem you can create for yourself living in a van and trying to park overnight. Shopping centers are definitely out as are national parks and highway stops. Even out back bush camping is getting controlled. Caravan parks are getting very expensive.

Living in the van is legal, parking it is legal but parking it and living in it is not in most places. Just count on having to shift two or three times a night.


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## CAB SAV (20 September 2008)

Spanning Tree, I think I know why your parents want to kick you out. So you can grow up. But if you feel the need to live in a van, go to America, you will have lot"s of comany.


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## mazzatelli1000 (20 September 2008)

Spanning Tree, I'm a bit younger than you and I also hate the fact that I do not want to have a loan that will tie me down. 

But you have to find other ways to further yourself than buy a van. Then again if you go through with it I might join you


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## Wysiwyg (20 September 2008)

This made me think there is no land free to set-up accomodation.Every piece of land in Australia is owned.Sheesh 250 years ago there was much free land.


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## jersey10 (20 September 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> I live in Melbourne, Australia and live in my parents' house. I'm 24 years old.
> 
> I believe house prices in Australia are overvalued and I don't want to buy a house because of fears of a house price correction. I also believe that debt is slavery and that a 30-year loan will add stress and ruin my life.
> 
> ...




you could rent.

you could probably get a decent room in share house close to the city for $150 / week


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## pepperoni (20 September 2008)

awg said:


> lots of people live out of vehicles
> 
> shopping centres security would probly move u on if they notice
> 
> ...




All that needs is a "hello" in the first line and its a robots post.


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## nunthewiser (20 September 2008)

my solution to the parking your van problem easy solved . just throw around a carton of empty stubbies around the back door , then explain to anyone trying to move u on that u are absolutely too toxic to drive and your just doing your responsible duty in staying there till u sober up . the worse that can happen is that they call the cops then hey presto at least u still got a bed for the night ..personally think u would be much better writing into the "abc" and asking for an opinion on " life support " as from reading a few of your threads i reckon you got an evil sense of humour ............ happy camping


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## Greg71 (20 September 2008)

I think it's a great idea. The best way is to just do it, then you'll know from experience and you won't go through life wondering.

Just park in a different street every night. No-one will care.

P.S. Let me know how it goes, maybe we could start a new craze. Your van is paid for in the first year, if your rent would have been $100 a week, except for rego.

I think if you had a job, your boss would let you park there overnight. You could use the shower at work. Get appliances from the auto store that run off your cigarette lighter. 

If you were to just park in the street, all you would need are curtains, which most vans have anyway. It looks normal. Who would even know you were in there?

"I missed every shot I never took" - Wayne Gretzky.


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## happytrader (21 September 2008)

nunthewiser said:


> my solution to the parking your van problem easy solved . just throw around a carton of empty stubbies around the back door , then explain to anyone trying to move u on that u are absolutely too toxic to drive and your just doing your responsible duty in staying there till u sober up . the worse that can happen is that they call the cops then hey presto at least u still got a bed for the night ..personally think u would be much better writing into the "abc" and asking for an opinion on " life support " as from reading a few of your threads i reckon you got an evil sense of humour ............ happy camping




If you really have been drinking and are over the limit and decide to sleep it off in your motor vehicle you can in fact be booked for drink driving if the keys are in your possession.

Cheers
Happytrader


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## Smurf1976 (21 September 2008)

happytrader said:


> If you really have been drinking and are over the limit and decide to sleep it off in your motor vehicle you can in fact be booked for drink driving if the keys are in your possession.
> 
> Cheers
> Happytrader



A completely ridiculous law in my opinion. Effectively punishing those who chose NOT to drive whilst still drunk. No doubt they'd be fined for sleeping on the street etc as an alternative too.


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## Macquack (21 September 2008)

mobcat said:


> You could be onto something here ST i wonder if you can get a *first Van owners grant*




You would need more than the first home buyers grant to buy some of the motor homes available. 

Here is a demonstrator model with a low 5000 km's for a bargain $699,000.
http://www.rvpoint.com.au/DesktopDefault.aspx?ItemID=2981131&TabID=204546


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## Mofra (21 September 2008)

happytrader said:


> If you really have been drinking and are over the limit and decide to sleep it off in your motor vehicle you can in fact be booked for drink driving if the keys are in your possession.
> 
> Cheers
> Happytrader



Doesn't this silly law only apply if you're sitting in the drivers seat?


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## Garpal Gumnut (21 September 2008)

As you would all be aware, living in a van, has challenged philsophers through the ages, From Socrates, through Confucius and on to Kant.

I enclose a short description of Schopenhauer's grappling with this mighty task.

It is useful to have the *"living in a van"* in its proper context before proceeding to discuss whether it is legal or not.

gg
_

Arthur Schopenhauer was a German philosopher, most famous for his work The World as Will and Representation. He is commonly known for having espoused a sort of philosophical pessimism that saw *life in a van* not as being essentially evil and futile, but rather, upon closer inspection, influenced by Eastern thought, he saw hope in aesthetics, sympathy for others and ascetic *living in a van* . His ideas profoundly influenced the fields of philosophy, psychology, and literature.
Schopenhauer's starting point was Kant's division of the universe into phenomenon and noumenon, claiming that the noumenon was Will and the most important since it is the inner content and the driving force of *living in a van*. (The noumenon was what Kant called the Ding an Sich, the "Thing in Itself", the reality that exists outside of, and the foundation of, *living in a van*.) For Schopenhauer, human will had ontological primacy over the intellect; in other words, desire is understood to be prior to thought, and, in a parallel sense, "will" is said to be prior to "being" and to be prior to "*living in a van*". ... In The World as Will and Idea, Schopenhauer posited that humans *living in a van*  in the realm of objects are *living in a van*  in the realm of desire, and thus are eternally tormented by that desire (his idea of the role of desire in *life in a van* is similar to that of Vedanta-Hinduism and Buddhism, Schopenhauer draws attention to these similarities himself. _


I am happy to discuss this in its own thread and trust I am not off topic.

gg


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## nunthewiser (21 September 2008)

Mofra said:


> Doesn't this silly law only apply if you're sitting in the drivers seat?




yeah m8 thats my understanding too, ive been woken up from the backseat without being arrested in the past ....... be a bit rude otherwise being busted for doing the right thing


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## robots (21 September 2008)

hello,

yeah man, all houses are 400k are they?

dont end up like all the scum around st kilda who buy these "backpacker" vans, crash in em and then dump them on the street

what the fools dont realise if they drove them down to the scrap metal man they would get about $400

thankyou
robots


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## overit (21 September 2008)

Have a go but I can tell you it is not easy or legal. I spent 4 years travelling and living in a tent/car. It was a few years ago and I tended to check into caravan parks most times. Now caravan parks cost more than renting a unit which is ridiculous, I wouldnt/couldnt do it again. 

Camping in the street is very hard. You will get hassled by the council if you look like you are sleeping there and will cop fines. You get very bored so you drive around alot wasting fuel and trying to entertain yourself. You waste money on takeaway food rather than cooking at home. You cant setup properly and get comfortable as you always have to look incognito. It is like playing a game alot of the time.

Overall it is not much cheaper than getting a room in a sharehouse. I roughed it because I wasnt staying in one place very long and every cent was a bonus. It certainly is an experience though.


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## Mooose (21 September 2008)

I live in a truck
Looks like work truck outside but inside very comfy. Park anywhere, even posh motels. Get free service. No hassles ;-)


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## gfresh (21 September 2008)

Haha, I do appreciate your wish to stick it to the man, and refusing the property cult, but boy, it's gonna not be too comfortable for you 

If you really wish to do it, move to the Goldcoast, nobody would notice this time of year  If you do actually carry through with your crazy plan, maybe you should make it a proper experience, travel around Australia, wherever you lay your head is your home. Pick up casual work along the way in whatever towns you visit to keep you going, you'll meet interesting people, horny backpackers , and explore our beautiful country in the best way possible.

I've known people who have done the same for a year or two in their earlier days, and they have some of the most interesting stories, and perspectives of people I know. 

Maybe as the world turns to recession, it's not a silly time to go about it. I always figured if the world turned to poop in the next few years, what are you really missing out on if you take a couple of years off to explore and roam? a few dollars? compared to many unique memories and experiences you may have, which are always priceless.


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## WaySolid (21 September 2008)

Find a house/unit target area for less than half of your cities median. (400k house!?! umm no) Invest some sweat equity in adding value and see where that takes you.


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## fimmwolf (21 September 2008)

Unless you could park the vehicle overnight on your parents private residence or at a local caravan park, you would probably get done for loitering.


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## Happy (21 September 2008)

Several times I saw camper van on side of the house with electric cable running from the house, so I assume somebody was living there and because it was for a long time must have been OK.

Thinking of that I assume you don't have to park in the street and dodge council workers or authorities. You could make private agreement with some owner, like your boss, mates from work, parents, elderly couple or little old lady.
(You could ask people around your parents house, because they know you, they will not fear you so much as they could if you are a complete stranger).

You could get permission to park on their property for little help like mowing, trips to shopping centre or help around the house or little cash, you could be lucky to get permission to hook up to power point.

You could even be treated there as extra security for frail people inside the house.

But word of warning, panel van is always too cold and too hot, camper van is well insulated so much better option, because you are talking longer term.

Good luck, and let us know how you go.


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## korrupt_1 (21 September 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> However, if my parents kick me out, where would I live?




Initially it sounds fun... but long term wise, it'll be painful.

I suggest you work something out with your parents so they don't kick you out...

Perhaps offer to extend the house so you have more room to be 'out of their hair'... or build a granny flat if you have the land and money for it... still be cheaper than taking out a $400K loan for a new property - either way, it'll add value to your parent's house.


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## OK2 (21 September 2008)

Mate what is wrong with you, get your priorities right. You need a VW Kombi not a Toyota Hiace as good as they are and then head for Nimbin. Now that's the life.


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## fordxbt (21 September 2008)

OK2 said:


> Mate what is wrong with you, get your priorities right. You need a VW Kombi not a Toyota Hiace as good as they are and then head for Nimbin. Now that's the life.




rofl
nimbin -> van will blend right in although you will get hassled for weed instead of loitering!


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## nunthewiser (21 September 2008)

sorry to break it to ya .. nimbins changed guys .... last visit a year ago made me want to high tail it out of there ... junkies galore , fighting, etc etc ....... the peacelovin dope peddlin drifters all seem to have shrunken into the shadows whilst the scum parades in the spotlight


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## Mooose (21 September 2008)

Combi suck. Over heat slow noisy small. Buy a landcruiser troopy cut roof off add fibreglass. Go anywhere. Very nice.


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## Spanning Tree (22 September 2008)

My parents don't seem to want to kick me out yet. I am just preparing just in case. There is a saying in the Russian KGB: "Those who sweat during peacetime bleed less during wartime." In the event of conflict with parents, unemployment, or many other problems, I would like to have a bed and a roof over my head (even if it's the roof of a Toyota Hiace) to fall back on. I am not deluded by the Real Estate Industrial Complex's propaganda that tricks everyone into thinking that they need a house. As far as I'm concerned, they are no different to the executives at De Beers who fooled many men into believing that they needed to buy a diamond for their wives. Like Warren Buffet I believe in buying assets at the right price.

I have been browsing Domain and have found some private parking spaces that I can buy outright with cash. For example, I can buy this parking space in St Kilda for $17,000.

Even if I pay stamp duty and council rates, since these two taxes are worked out based on percentages, I still don't have to pay as much as I would if I purchased a house.

The median house price in St Kilda is $695,000. This means I save a massive $678,000 simply by sleeping in a van. I will also live close to the CBD and have access to a beach if I want to cool down my body during the summer.

At $17,000 I'm sure just about any first-home buyer can afford it with maybe a year of savings. Buying a private parking space gets rid of the problem of police forcing you to get off public land as well as security guards forcing you to get off private shopping centers.

If property prices in Australia continue to increase, an enterprising property developer ought to buy some land, build a huge parking tower there, and then sell off each parking space for a cheap price for young people with vans.


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## Mooose (22 September 2008)

Spanning Tree said:


> My parents don't seem to want to kick me out yet. I am just preparing just in case. There is a saying in the Russian KGB: "Those who sweat during peacetime bleed less during wartime." In the event of conflict with parents, unemployment, or many other problems, I would like to have a bed and a roof over my head (even if it's the roof of a Toyota Hiace) to fall back on.
> 
> I have been browsing Domain and have found some private parking spaces that I can buy outright with cash. For example, I can buy this parking space in St Kilda for $17,000.
> 
> ...




Good idea. Why not just by a beach box at mentone or somewhere. Does the car park have power access?


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## Mooose (22 September 2008)

Actually there are some nice storage lockers also in melb


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## cuttlefish (22 September 2008)

I lived on a cul-de-sac and young bloke decided to live there for a while in his van.  At first he was a few hundred metres up the road and I didn't take much notice, but then one day he ended up right in front of our house - I think his van's battery had gone flat and he'd tried to jump start it down the hill.  Anyway - to cut a ramble short I told him he had to move.  He said yeah yeah but then he didn't move.  I think he also decided that he was my mate after I spoke to him.  I called the police quite a few times - but every time they came around he was out.  They said the van was registered so they couldn't move it yet and I think their hands were a bit tied as to whether they could move him on. (they were pretty useless actually).  

The bloke had a mobile phone, a skateboard and a job working for a builder - his boss would pick him up for work and drop him off.  Anyway I spoke to him again and told him he really had to go - he said he'd try to but hadn't been paid yet to buy a battery (I was tempted to offer to buy one for him but didn't). The next day he was still there, but the day after that he was gone. (he was only there a couple of weeks in total). This was a beach side suburb in Sydney.  So I guess on that basis if you're willing to get hassled a bit by annoyed residents and move about every few days or weeks you could probably do it.  

A few negatives to consider:

* security both of yourself and your gear
* where do you go for cr*p when the urge takes you.  (I think this bloke was using zip locked sandwhich bags and throwing them in a bin up the road - pretty humiliating way to go about your business in my opinion).
* the psychological impact of being treated like a bum - because the residents of the street will notice you as soon as you park there and will call the police pretty much straight away and treat you suspiciously etc.  If you park in a non-residential area then the security aspect could come into play a bit.   Probably ok for a week or two but after a few months you might find that it starts to affect your self esteem quite significantly.

I'd go looking for cheap share accomodation myself.


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## skyerin (10 July 2016)

cuttlefish said:


> I lived on a cul-de-sac and young bloke decided to live there for a while in his van.  At first he was a few hundred metres up the road and I didn't take much notice, but then one day he ended up right in front of our house - I think his van's battery had gone flat and he'd tried to jump start it down the hill.  Anyway - to cut a ramble short I told him he had to move.  He said yeah yeah but then he didn't move.  I think he also decided that he was my mate after I spoke to him.  I called the police quite a few times - but every time they came around he was out.  They said the van was registered so they couldn't move it yet and I think their hands were a bit tied as to whether they could move him on. (they were pretty useless actually).
> 
> The bloke had a mobile phone, a skateboard and a job working for a builder - his boss would pick him up for work and drop him off.  Anyway I spoke to him again and told him he really had to go - he said he'd try to but hadn't been paid yet to buy a battery (I was tempted to offer to buy one for him but didn't). The next day he was still there, but the day after that he was gone. (he was only there a couple of weeks in total). This was a beach side suburb in Sydney.  So I guess on that basis if you're willing to get hassled a bit by annoyed residents and move about every few days or weeks you could probably do it.
> 
> ...




"Telling someone they can't be sad because others have it worse is like saying that others can't be happy because others have it better"

Let people do what they need to do to be happy, mind your own business, and do what you need to do to make you happy.

M. Scott Peck, The People of the Lie: “(Evil) people use power to destroy the growth of others for the purpose of defending and preserving the integrity of their own sick selves. In short, it is scapegoating. They attack others instead of facing their own failures.”

"Mahatmas don't sweat the small stuff. They live in truth and love, because they know the destruction and pain that happens when you don't.

In the Bible’s book of Leviticus, there is a story about a ritual where there were two goats, one of which was “chosen” (and sacrificed) and the other, the scapegoat, which was banished to the desert. Who do you think was the lucky one?

So what is it, exactly, that scapegoats are escaping? The tyranny of lies and dysfunction, for one thing. Scapegoats don’t pretend everything’s okay when they know deep down it’s not. They’ve escaped from the need to please. They’ve escaped from the need to deny their own heart. They’ve escaped from one of the biggest fears hindering mankind ”” rejection. Scapegoats have already been there, done that, carried on (yawn.)  So they’ll try things others won’t, accomplish things others can’t ”” because others are hindered by fear. They have some hard-won wisdom and strength. Most of all, scapegoats are no longer in thrall to what M. Scott Peck calls âœThe Lie.”

-Help! I'm a Black Sheep


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