# Join the Search for Flight MH370



## CanOz (12 March 2014)

Anyone can volunteer and join the search for flight MH370. Tomnod.com is using satelite imagery to scan the oceans surface around the area where the flight disappeared.

The site was so overwhelmed by traffic they had to shut down for a while....

www.tomnod.com


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> Anyone can volunteer and join the search for flight MH370. Tomnod.com is using satelite imagery to scan the oceans surface around the area where the flight disappeared.
> 
> The site was so overwhelmed by traffic they had to shut down for a while....
> 
> www.tomnod.com




That site is a complete waste of space.

It doesn't load.

I guess it has been overwhelmed.

My estimation is that MH370 is at 4.686779, 98.662106, given the information to hand.

gg


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

The site is working fine for me, through a VPN as well. You might want to clear you cache first.


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## Garpal Gumnut (12 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> The site is working fine for me, through a VPN as well. You might want to clear you cache first.




thanks.

I'll try that.

gg


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## spooly74 (12 March 2014)

Surely they'd have found it by now if it went down in the ocean. 

This scenario seems plausible given were now into day 5!
http://mh370lost.tumblr.com/?og=1

I remember something similar happening to a Greek Airline where everybody onboard lost consciousness shortly after take off because the pressurisation system was set to manual. It flew for hours and even entered a holding pattern on autopilot before fuel ran out.


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

spooly74 said:


> Surely they'd have found it by now if it went down in the ocean.
> 
> This scenario seems plausible given were now into day 5!
> http://mh370lost.tumblr.com/?og=1
> ...




Thats also how the golfer, Payne Stewart's jet crashed as well....from memory.


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## McLovin (12 March 2014)

It all seems very confused now. The initial search was in the Bay of Thailand, but now they've expanded it to include the Straits of Malacca. How could a jet fly straight back over Malaysia and not be seen on _any_, military or civil, radar?

It also seems unlikely that a plane could fly on autopilot until it ran out of fuel in that part of the world without being noticed.

There seems to be a new hypothesis coming out every hour. Probably better to just wait and see.


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

McLovin said:


> It all seems very confused now. The initial search was in the Bay of Thailand, but now they've expanded it to include the Straits of Malacca. How could a jet fly straight back over Malaysia and not be seen on _any_, military or civil, radar?
> 
> It also seems unlikely that a plane could fly on autopilot until it ran out of fuel in that part of the world without being noticed.
> 
> There seems to be a new hypothesis coming out every hour. Probably better to just wait and see.




Yeah agree, plus the fact that the Malaysian military can't decide if they said it turned around or they didn't say it turned around....and these guys are the military?


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## rumpole (12 March 2014)

This looks like a credible possibility

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26446060


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## McLovin (12 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> This looks like a credible possibility
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26446060




Except they're talking about a different flight.


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> This looks like a credible possibility
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26446060




Not sure how it relates to MH370 though Rumpole?


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## trainspotter (12 March 2014)

Anyone remember Oceanic Airlines Flight 815, TV Series LOST directed by JJ Abrams ? Amazing similarities here


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## rumpole (12 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> Not sure how it relates to MH370 though Rumpole?




Military exercises and failure to recognise civilian aircraft have been the cause of several aircraft being shot down, eg the USS Vincenze shooting down an Iranian civil airliner and Russia downing a Korean 747t . 

Has the question been asked if any country was undertaking military operations in the area ? If Malaysia or Vietnam by accident or design shot the aircraft down, they wouldn't be too keen to find it.


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Military exercises and failure to recognise civilian aircraft have been the cause of several aircraft being shot down, eg the USS Vincenze shooting down an Iranian civil airliner and Russia downing a Korean 747t .
> 
> Has the question been asked if any country was undertaking military operations in the area ? If Malaysia or Vietnam by accident or design shot the aircraft down, they wouldn't be too keen to find it.




ahh yeah ok. I couldn't see the relation with the DPRK specifically, because of the geographical differences but i see what you mean now. The US has stated that they detected no explosive events in that area at the time, an area that they said they has a good resolution of or something like that....

I tell you what, the decompression theory has some weight behind it in my view.


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## trainspotter (12 March 2014)

Read somewhere that the search is similar in size to trying to find a 5 cent piece on the MCG from 100 metres in the air !


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Read somewhere that the search is similar in size to trying to find a 5 cent piece on the MCG from 100 metres in the air !




I don't think thats quite accurate but you'd need a piece of debris aboit 1m x 1m to spot it, then you tag it. If you had several then it may be note-able if others see it and tag them as well. I can't see it being worse than being in a moving aircraft several hundred meters off the surface.


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## trainspotter (12 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> I don't think thats quite accurate but you'd need a piece of debris aboit 1m x 1m to spot it, then you tag it. If you had several then it may be note-able if others see it and tag them as well. I can't see it being worse than being in a moving aircraft several hundred meters off the surface.




Missed what I was trying to drive at ... see the following graphic for explanation.


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

Here is a screenshot with the scale on the bottom.


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## trainspotter (12 March 2014)

Aware of that ... been searching for hours on the damn thing !!


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

Ahh i see TS, but they don't mention that these days we have better "eyes"...

The concept of crowd sourcing this is great idea. They then use statistics to narrow down the possibilities. I don't even know where i'm searching, so they could have any number of eyes searching many many random blocks in many search areas. Once they get a number of hits in that area they start to look closer. In reality in makes more sense than using ships and aircraft, which is like looking for a needle in a haystack...


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Aware of that ... been searching for hours on the damn thing !!




ahh good on ya! Maybe they call it Tomnod because one's tends to nod off after a while


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## rumpole (12 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> Ahh i see TS, but they don't mention that these days we have better "eyes"...
> 
> The concept of crowd sourcing this is great idea. They then use statistics to narrow down the possibilities. I don't even know where i'm searching, so they could have any number of eyes searching many many random blocks in many search areas. Once they get a number of hits in that area they start to look closer. In reality in makes more sense than using ships and aircraft, which is like looking for a needle in a haystack...




They used the "crowd search" method to try and find an American pilot who crashed in the woods somewhere, and it was reckoned they got so many false leads it wasn't worth the trouble.


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> They used the "crowd search" method to try and find an American pilot who crashed in the woods somewhere, and it was reckoned they got so many false leads it wasn't worth the trouble.




Well i fly a fair bit Rumphole, so maybe it just makes me feel better


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## rumpole (12 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> Well i fly a fair bit Rumphole, so maybe it just makes me feel better




Glad to hear it CanAss


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## CanOz (12 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Glad to hear it CanAss



lol....i assure you that was not intentional...


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## rumpole (12 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> lol....i assure you that was not intentional...




Fair enough


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## Smurf1976 (12 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Read somewhere that the search is similar in size to trying to find a 5 cent piece on the MCG from 100 metres in the air !




To put it into perspective, the search area is apparently now equivalent to the entire land area of Victoria. Or you could say that it's a third the size of NSW or 4 times the size of Tas. However you put it, that's a huge area to be looking for bits of a plane and that's assuming that there's actually a plane to be found and that it's in the area they are looking for it.

The longer it takes to find, the harder it will be I'd think. Eg if there's a fuel leak then initially that will float on water (jet fuel floats, it doesn't mix with the water) but it also evaporates reasonably quickly so after a while there will be no oil slick even if there was one at some point. Also if there's small bits floating then waves etc will move them around on the water. And then there's the reported 1 month life of the batteries in the "black box" after which it stops transmitting its' location. So the longer it takes, the harder it's going to be to find it. 

One thing I'm thinking, is that to assist in any future searches it would be sensible to paint all planes in colours that contrast strongly with the natural environment. Colours that stand out against either a water or land background. Eg a bright yellow plane would be easier to spot amongst forest or in the water than a green or blue one. It might not have helped in this case, the plane seems to be mostly white anyway, but it would seem a logical thing to do in a broader sense to not allow any airline to paint their planes in colours that blend in with the natural environment. Same logic as road workers etc wearing bright coloured clothing to make them more visible.


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## sptrawler (12 March 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> To put it into perspective, the search area is apparently now equivalent to the entire land area of Victoria. Or you could say that it's a third the size of NSW or 4 times the size of Tas. However you put it, that's a huge area to be looking for bits of a plane and that's assuming that there's actually a plane to be found and that it's in the area they are looking for it.
> 
> The longer it takes to find, the harder it will be I'd think. Eg if there's a fuel leak then initially that will float on water (jet fuel floats, it doesn't mix with the water) but it also evaporates reasonably quickly so after a while there will be no oil slick even if there was one at some point. Also if there's small bits floating then waves etc will move them around on the water. And then there's the reported 1 month life of the batteries in the "black box" after which it stops transmitting its' location. So the longer it takes, the harder it's going to be to find it.
> 
> One thing I'm thinking, is that to assist in any future searches it would be sensible to paint all planes in colours that contrast strongly with the natural environment. Colours that stand out against either a water or land background. Eg a bright yellow plane would be easier to spot amongst forest or in the water than a green or blue one. It might not have helped in this case, the plane seems to be mostly white anyway, but it would seem a logical thing to do in a broader sense to not allow any airline to paint their planes in colours that blend in with the natural environment. Same logic as road workers etc wearing bright coloured clothing to make them more visible.




The problem I have with the report of it going down in the straits of Malacca, have you been there?

It is busier than Sydney Harbour, I would be very suprised if it went down in that area, without anyone seeing it.


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## trainspotter (13 March 2014)

Having sailed a yacht through the Strait of Malacca and the South China Sea I am perplexed as to how little they have actually found? The water is littered with all kinds of flotsam and jetsam ranging from semi submerged sea containers to frickin tennis balls that turn into sea snakes. Also the amount of vessels in the area that have not seen anything just goes to prove my thesis that there is no one on watch on the container ships as we were nearly run over on several occasions by ships with NO navigation lights.


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## VSntchr (13 March 2014)

Nice Pics TS, looks like a great time


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## trainspotter (13 March 2014)

VSntchr said:


> Nice Pics TS, looks like a great time




The only nice thing about that yacht delivery was getting off the damn thing in Bali. 

Latest news is they reckon a Chinese satellite has picked up a possible crash site and a NZ man on an oil rig has claimed he saw the plane on fire then disappearing ?

http://www.news.com.au/world/oil-ri...urst-into-flames/story-fndir2ev-1226853302184


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## drsmith (13 March 2014)

Chinese sat images of unidentified wreckage in the original search area and an unidentified aircraft confirmed by Malaysia flying westward away from where the commercial flight disappeared makes me wonder whether it was shot down.

There's also this,



> IN what could be the last chilling sighting of missing Flight MH370, an oil rig worker believes he spotted the Malaysia Airlines jetliner burst into flames on Saturday morning.




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/oi...urst-into-flames/story-fni0fiyv-1226853400785

Whether by terrorism or internal structural failure, it's looking increasingly like something went horribly wrong in flight over the South China Sea.


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## sptrawler (13 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> The only nice thing about that yacht delivery was getting off the damn thing in Bali.
> 
> Latest news is they reckon a Chinese satellite has picked up a possible crash site and a NZ man on an oil rig has claimed he saw the plane on fire then disappearing ?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/oil-ri...urst-into-flames/story-fndir2ev-1226853302184




That report does tend to reflect badly on the search organisers.

Jeez trainspotter, relocating yachts, not bad for a day job, lucky sod.


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## piggybank (13 March 2014)

spooly74 said:


> I remember something similar happening to a Greek Airline where everybody onboard lost consciousness shortly after take off because the pressurisation system was set to manual. It flew for hours and even entered a holding pattern on autopilot before fuel ran out.




Hi Spooly74 - I think this is the incident you were referring to:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522


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## piggybank (13 March 2014)

10 Other Mysterious Aviation Disasters:- http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26531675


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## piggybank (13 March 2014)

Q) Malaysia Airlines: How do you track a plane?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-26544554


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## rumpole (13 March 2014)

Oil rig worker says he spotted plane on fire

http://www.news.com.au/world/oil-ri...urst-into-flames/story-fndir2ev-1226853302184

Sorry, Dr Smith beat me to it


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## trainspotter (13 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> The only nice thing about that yacht delivery was getting off the damn thing in Bali.
> 
> Latest news is they reckon a Chinese satellite has picked up a possible crash site and a NZ man on an oil rig has claimed he saw the plane on fire then disappearing ?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/oil-ri...urst-into-flames/story-fndir2ev-1226853302184






rumpole said:


> Oil rig worker says he spotted plane on fire
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/oil-ri...urst-into-flames/story-fndir2ev-1226853302184
> 
> Sorry, Dr Smith beat me to it




*AHEM*


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## rumpole (13 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> *AHEM*




Apologies to trainspotter, firstest with the mostest


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## trainspotter (13 March 2014)

*This is getting murky !!!!!!!*



> The engines' onboard monitoring system is provided by their manufacturer, Rolls-Royce and it periodically sends bursts of data about engine health, operations and aircraft movements to facilities on the ground.
> 
> "We continue to monitor the situation and to offer Malaysia Airlines our support," a Rolls-Royce representative said Wednesday, declining further comment.
> 
> ...




http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282


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## bellenuit (13 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> *This is getting murky !!!!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282




Press Conference currently under way has denied that transmission of engine data continued for 4 hours after plane lost from radar.


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## rumpole (13 March 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Press Conference currently under way has denied that transmission of engine data continued for 4 hours after plane lost from radar.




Does one get a sense of general disorganisation and lack of a command chain in Malaysia ?

Or maybe a cover up ?


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## sptrawler (13 March 2014)

The obvious problem that stands out at this point, Malaysia obviously doesn't want anyone looking at their radar tracking ability.


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## rumpole (13 March 2014)

sptrawler said:


> The obvious problem that stands out at this point, Malaysia obviously doesn't want anyone looking at their radar tracking ability.




Nothing to see here, move along


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## Smurf1976 (13 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Does one get a sense of general disorganisation and lack of a command chain in Malaysia ?
> 
> Or maybe a cover up ?




I am not familiar with the area personally, having never been anywhere near it. But based on the various reports it seems that there are a lot of freight ships around, there are oil rigs with people working on them, there are fishing boats, at least a few pleasure boats etc, aircraft flying overhead and so on. And yet nobody has found anything in the water, and only one oil worker claims to have seen what he thinks *might* have been a plane on fire (or it could have just been something else?). Then there's the air and sea based search efforts with multiple countries involved. Meanwhile the US says they can detect explosions etc but that there hasn't been one so far as they can tell. 

All that leads me to see the whole thing as rather odd. 

Could it have simply plunged (as an intact, complete plane) into the ocean at full speed with the nose pointing straight down and completely disintegrated on impact? 

If the plane still had the engines running flat out and was pointing straight down (due to whatever cause) then what happens when it hits the water? I'd assume that it would simply disintegrate into a million pieces and that few if any parts would survive intact (and those that did survive may well sink), thus leaving nothing that's easy to find.

I don't know how plausible that is. But I do know that if you accidentally lose something over the side of a roughly 50 metre high structure and it falls under gravity onto the concrete at the bottom well then there isn't much left of the object afterward, it basically "blows up" on impact - what was solid is now lots of little bits. Been there, accidentally done that one many years ago (reportable workplace incident by the way). So I'm assuming that if you have an aircraft not just fall, but be actively propelled down by the engines at full speed, then nothing much would survive the impact once it hits the water. And the plunge from 35,000 feet would only take half a minute or so, an incredibly rapid descent, therefore may not be detected by anything or any alarms etc sent out in that time.

It sounds a bit extreme, but all the "conventional" crash (or successful landing somewhere) scenarios seem to be ruled out - not tracked on radar, no explosion, no mayday calls, can't find anything etc.


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## banco (13 March 2014)

sptrawler said:


> The obvious problem that stands out at this point, Malaysia obviously doesn't want anyone looking at their radar tracking ability.




I've no doubt that faced with choice of not finding the plane or revealing their radar specs etc. to China Malaysia would choose the former option in a heartbeat.


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## sptrawler (13 March 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> I am not familiar with the area personally, having never been anywhere near it. But based on the various reports it seems that there are a lot of freight ships around, there are oil rigs with people working on them, there are fishing boats, at least a few pleasure boats etc, aircraft flying overhead and so on. And yet nobody has found anything in the water, and only one oil worker claims to have seen what he thinks *might* have been a plane on fire (or it could have just been something else?). Then there's the air and sea based search efforts with multiple countries involved. Meanwhile the US says they can detect explosions etc but that there hasn't been one so far as they can tell.
> 
> All that leads me to see the whole thing as rather odd.
> 
> ...




One would have thought there would be a transmission, "Mayday, Mayday, we are in the $hit".

Even in a power station, one informs system control when there is an imminent loss of a unit.

I'm sure at the first indication of serious damage, a pilot would report the situation.

There was no distress call, apparently.


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## Julia (13 March 2014)

Few commentators seem to be prepared to put forward the possibility of a hijacking.  
Couldn't either a crew member or a passenger have demanded the aircraft change course, disabling the communications (I have no idea whether all communications can in fact be so disabled so as to leave no trace of the whereabouts of the aircraft), and then fly it to some disused, or especially prepared airstrip, where the passengers could either be held as hostages or executed, and the plane left for use at a later date in a capacity such as those flown into the World Trade Centre?

It sounds fanciful indeed.  But given the lack of any clues whatsoever, isn't it at least somewhat feasible?


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## sptrawler (13 March 2014)

Julia said:


> Few commentators seem to be prepared to put forward the possibility of a hijacking.
> Couldn't either a crew member or a passenger have demanded the aircraft change course, disabling the communications (I have no idea whether all communications can in fact be so disabled so as to leave no trace of the whereabouts of the aircraft), and then fly it to some disused, or especially prepared airstrip, where the passengers could either be held as hostages or executed, and the plane left for use at a later date in a capacity such as those flown into the World Trade Centre?
> 
> It sounds fanciful indeed.  But given the lack of any clues whatsoever, isn't it at least somewhat feasible?




The cockpit is locked, to force entry would give one of the crew time to put out a distress call.

Of course there may have been an opportunity to overpower the cabin crew, however a distress call doesn't take long and the crew are well versed on transmitting it.
The only people who could dissable it would be a pilot or co pilot, I would assume.
If they had flown to a remote location, one would assume, they would be making demands already.


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## drsmith (14 March 2014)

Forget yesterday's theory,



> Washington: Communications satellites picked up faint electronic pulses from Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 after it went missing on Saturday, but the signals gave no information about where the stray jet was heading and little else about its fate, two sources close to the investigation said on Thursday.
> 
> The "pings" indicated that the aircraft's maintenance troubleshooting systems were switched on and ready to communicate with satellites as needed. But no data links were opened because the companies involved had not subscribed to that level of service from the satellite operator, the sources said.
> 
> The system transmits such pings about once an hour, the sources said, but it remains unclear how many signals the plane sent after air traffic control lost track of it.




http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysi...ngs-from-jet-sources-says-20140314-hviig.html

ABC news also advised that Malaysia has advised that the items photographed by Chinese satellite are not the aircraft.

A difficulty with the slow decompression theory is that it requires multiple levels of equipment and/or human failure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522


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## sptrawler (14 March 2014)

It certainly doesn't overwelm you with confidence, if you were unfortunate enough to have a mid air incident in Malaysian air space.


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## McLovin (14 March 2014)

Julia said:


> Few commentators seem to be prepared to put forward the possibility of a hijacking.
> Couldn't either a crew member or a passenger have demanded the aircraft change course, disabling the communications (I have no idea whether all communications can in fact be so disabled so as to leave no trace of the whereabouts of the aircraft), and then fly it to some disused, or especially prepared airstrip, where the passengers could either be held as hostages or executed, and the plane left for use at a later date in a capacity such as those flown into the World Trade Centre?
> 
> It sounds fanciful indeed.  But given the lack of any clues whatsoever, isn't it at least somewhat feasible?




You can turn off the transponder (the transponder tells the ground radar what flight number it is and also it's altitude), but a 777 is not a stealth aircraft so it would still appear, albeit as unidentified, on radar.

That was why I was a bit surprised initially that it had turned around and flown back over Malaysia. Surely the Malaysian military would want to know what the unidentified aircraft flying straight over it was.

The idea of flying it to a remote landing strip is incredibly unlikely, basically only in Hollywood. These are big jets that require lots of space to land and then need lots of Jet A-1 fuel and even more runway to get off the ground again. Neither of those things are easy to procure. 

The Malaysians are doing a pretty poor job with this, IMO, but so is the 24 hour news cycle, that seems to be trying to find a new cause on the hour, every hour.


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## rumpole (14 March 2014)

The legal eagles have their claws out already

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-14/malaysia-airlines-face-compensation-claims/5321610


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## noco (14 March 2014)

It has been alleged that the plane flew on for another 4 or 5 hours....so who knows it could be sitting in a North Korean  hanger being spray painted.

If that should happen to be the case, God help the passengers on board....they would obviously become political prisoners for the rest of their lives.


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## rumpole (14 March 2014)

noco said:


> It has been alleged that the plane flew on for another 4 or 5 hours....so who knows it could be sitting in a North Korean  hanger being spray painted.
> 
> If that should happen to be the case, God help the passengers on board....they would obviously become political prisoners for the rest of their lives.




Yes, damn those commie B*stards.


OTOH , if the autopilot was on, and the pilots incapacitated or dead due due decompression bought about by a window or door blowing out, the plane could have kept flying to the limits of its fuel and crashed in a jungle somewhere. Funny radar somewhere didn't pick it up though.


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## drsmith (14 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> OTOH , if the autopilot was on, and the pilots incapacitated or dead due due decompression bought about by a window or door blowing out, the plane could have kept flying to the limits of its fuel and crashed in a jungle somewhere. Funny radar somewhere didn't pick it up though.



You're not the only one to consider rapid decompression while the plane continuing flight,

http://pickeringpost.com/story/mystery-flight-may-never-be-found/2936


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## sptrawler (14 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> You're not the only one to consider rapid decompression while the plane continuing flight,
> 
> http://pickeringpost.com/story/mystery-flight-may-never-be-found/2936




It is the most obvious conclusion at this time.

The reports of the plane continuing to fly, when comunications were lost,leans toward that conclusion.IMO


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## Bintang (15 March 2014)

sptrawler said:


> It is the most obvious conclusion at this time.
> 
> The reports of the plane continuing to fly, when comunications were lost,leans toward that conclusion.IMO




Not if the path plotted in this map is correct:
http://airinfo.org/2014/03/14/disparition-du-vol-mh370-la-zone-de-recherche-etendue-a-locean-indien/


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## drsmith (15 March 2014)

The articles are getting bigger but a definitive answer is still elusive,

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ma...s-military-radar/story-e6freuy9-1226854346724


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## Julia (15 March 2014)

From the above link:


> A third source familiar with the investigation told Reuters inquiries were focusing increasingly on the theory that someone who knew how to fly a plane deliberately diverted the flight, with 239 people on board, hundreds of kilometres off its intended course from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.
> 
> “What we can say is we are looking at sabotage, with hijack still on the cards,” said that source, a senior Malaysian police official.




Plus indications - now from London - that signals showing the plane was still in the air up to five hours after last contact.  So maybe not entirely fanciful to consider hijack after all.


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## rumpole (15 March 2014)

Julia said:


> From the above link:
> 
> 
> Plus indications - now from London - that signals showing the plane was still in the air up to five hours after last contact.  So maybe not entirely fanciful to consider hijack after all.




A suicide hijack ? Otherwise where did they land and why haven't they made any demands ?

Perhaps they flew around for a while and just ran out of fuel and crashed, but you would think that hijackers would make some sort of demands over the radio.


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## drsmith (15 March 2014)

> Kuala Lumpur: The latest evidence emerging from the United States suggests that missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 was set on a deliberate navigational route in the opposite direction to its scheduled flight path, swinging the focus of police investigations back to the pilots, crew and passengers.
> 
> Evidence suggests that somebody with flying experience set the Boeing plane's route manually or programmed its auto-pilot so that it flew hundreds of kilometres off course into the vast expanses of the Indian Ocean.
> 
> Key evidence also indicates a gap of some minutes between the time the plane's transponder stopped and a messaging system cut out, lessening the likelihood of a catastrophic mid-air explosion.




http://www.smh.com.au/world/plane-was-piloted-offcourse-in-last-hours-us-20140315-34tdz.html


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## rumpole (15 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/world/plane-was-piloted-offcourse-in-last-hours-us-20140315-34tdz.html




Pilots have deliberately crashed aircraft before, making it look accidental so the family could get insurance. 

The route shown makes sense if they didn't want the plane to be found easily.

No doubt the authorities are looking into the pilots background and personal histories.


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## Julia (15 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> A suicide hijack ? Otherwise where did they land and why haven't they made any demands ?
> 
> Perhaps they flew around for a while and just ran out of fuel and crashed, but you would think that hijackers would make some sort of demands over the radio.



Not if they had landed the plane somewhere with the intention of  eg filling it with massive amount of explosives and then at some later time using it in a suicide mission like those of September 11.

Before that awful event any suggestion that it could happen would equally have been dismissed as entirely fanciful.


----------



## rumpole (15 March 2014)

Julia said:


> Not if they had landed the plane somewhere with the intention of  eg filling it with massive amount of explosives and then at some later time using it in a suicide mission like those of September 11.
> 
> Before that awful event any suggestion that it could happen would equally have been dismissed as entirely fanciful.




I suppose that's possible , but there are not many places within the range of the aircraft from where it was last seen that have facilities for landing and refuelling such a large aircraft with secrecy.

Given the latest reports of its course, the only thing that makes sense to me at the moment is that they suffered a total loss of electronic systems, including navigation and radios, got lost and wandered around not knowing where they were until they ran out of fuel and crashed.

As they were flying at night it would be easy to lose their bearings.


----------



## drsmith (15 March 2014)

It would seem the Malaysian government is about to confirm the aircraft was hijacked.



> A Malaysian government official says investigators have concluded the missing Malaysia Airlines plane was hijacked, according press agency Associated Press.
> 
> Sky News reports the official said no motive has been established and it is not yet clear where the plane was taken, but he said hijacking was "conclusive".
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...tors-say-jet-was-hijacked-20140315-34tll.html



> INVESTIGATORS have concluded that one or more people with significant flying experience hijacked the missing Malaysia Airlines jet, switched off communication devices and steered it off-course, a Malaysian government official involved in the investigation said this afternoon.




http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...370-was-hijacked/story-fni6um3i-1226855315871


----------



## spooly74 (15 March 2014)

Hard to imagine what the families must be going through. 

Did it crash subsequent to the hijacking (why nobody's claimed it), or was the first part of this terror plot successful? (why nobody's claimed it) 

Either way, they'll have pissed off the Chinese.



drsmith said:


> It would seem the Malaysian government is about to confirm the aircraft was hijacked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 March 2014)

I think it's plausible that it may have been hijacked by someone who then flew the plane?

To my understanding, simply keeping the plane flying whilst it's already in the air is relatively straightforward. It's takeoff, landing, dealing with anything that goes wrong in the air and ending up at your intended destination in a safe and efficient manner which is the hard part that pilots spend a lot of time learning how to do. But just flying straight ahead is fairly simple to my understanding.

So I'm thinking that it's plausible that the plane was hijacked by someone with enough knowledge to keep it flying but who either couldn't, or didn't want to, land it. Therefore just keep flying until the fuel runs out.

In that case it could have been part of a plot that went wrong. Eg they intended to fly it into something in a 9/11 style attack (building, bridge, whatever) but messed that part up so just kept flying and crashed once the fuel ran out.


----------



## Julia (15 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> It would seem the Malaysian government is about to confirm the aircraft was hijacked.



More detail from the latest ABC news:


> Someone on board the missing Malaysia Airlines plane deliberately shut off its communications and tracking systems and flew it off course for nearly seven hours after it vanished, Malaysian prime minister Najib Razak said today.
> 
> Speaking at a press conference on Saturday, Mr Najib confirmed the plane's systems were gradually switched off and the plane was flown far to the west of its flight path before disappearing.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2014)

Julia said:


> More detail from the latest ABC news:




So it goes back to no distress call.


----------



## DB008 (15 March 2014)

Saw someone post this on Flyertalk (massive airline forum)



> I believe the plane was never meant to land. I am theorising that this will reveal itself as a suicide "test" flight for future ill-good. The "pilots" of the commandeered plane were testing its mechanics and abilities and sending this data back to some ground base....hence taking advantage of the full fuel range before finally crashing.





Anyways, where the plan could be;


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 March 2014)

So it could be anywhere in an area that's several times the size of Australia.

If it crashed on land then somebody will stumble across it someday no doubt. But if it's in the ocean then I'm thinking it may never be found, or at least not in a time that's of any real use or interest to anyone.


----------



## drsmith (15 March 2014)

DB008 said:


> Saw someone post this on Flyertalk (massive airline forum)
> 
> Anyways, where the plan could be;



I can reduce that search area slightly. It's not in my back yard. 

Within the circle, there are apparently two flight path options. One northwest from Malaysia towards Turkey and the other southwest over the Indian Ocean.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2014)

I would be absolutely amazed, if it went down unseen in the Andaman sea.


----------



## DB008 (15 March 2014)

DB008 said:


> Anyways, where the *plan* could be;




*plane - obvious typo


----------



## Calliope (15 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> I can reduce that search area slightly. It's not in my back yard.
> 
> Within the circle, there are apparently two flight path options. One northwest from Malaysia towards Turkey and the other southwest over the Indian Ocean.




That certainly narrows it down Doc, but with your experience of "Lost in Space" I expected more.


----------



## bellenuit (16 March 2014)

Just speculation on my behalf, but the intention may have been to land the plane intact and then refuel. Head towards something of strategic interest to the US say and then announce your intention to make a 9/11 style attack. The US would be forced to chose between letting the attack happen or shooting the plane down with the loss of all passengers, who are mostly Chinese. The latter action could set US - Chinese relations back years.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 March 2014)

Would I be correct in assuming that Australia has sufficient radar etc to be sure that it hasn't landed / crashed on land in Australia?

Whilst it seems an unlikely scenario, it's within the flight range of it according to the map posted earlier.


----------



## cogs (16 March 2014)

I would be curious to know what, if any information has been obtained from mobile phone usage, iPhone's 'find my phone feature' and triangulating call out's etc.

It is likely there were over 200 phones on this flight, which most likely should have been turned off, but it could be possible one or more could have been left on. 

Surely the authorities (whichever one pulls the most strings) has contacted all relatives to those on board and used the latest tech, to try and locate a phone? Someone knows something more than they will let on.

If this is not possible it leads to only a few conclusions in my mind:

They were all law abiding citizens on board who all switched their phones off, and something happened faster than it takes to turn on a phone. Explosion or similar, which means the wreckage should be found eventually.
Hijackers (or similar) gathered up all the phones and made sure they were destroyed, which means it was hijacked. Plane will surface somewhere, sometime, or has crashed into the ocean and will be found eventually.
Some other means of control of electronic devices was used. Where's the plane and passengers? Should be found eventually.
The flight is will the other 'unfound' flights from time gone by.

Whatever the case, we will only be fed what 'they' think we should know anyway.

Just my bit.


----------



## DB008 (16 March 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Just speculation on my behalf, but the intention may have been to land the plane intact and then refuel.




I don't know. 777-200 is a big jet.



> *How to steal a 777*
> 
> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/2014/03/an_mit_expert_o.html
> 
> ...




And to refuel?

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/777family/pf/pf_200product.page



> 45,220 U.S. gal (171,170 L)




Where do you get 171k L of Jet A1 fuel?


----------



## McLovin (16 March 2014)

DB008 said:


> I don't know. 777-200 is a big jet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Exactly. That's why the fly and store for use at a later date scenario isn't credible, imo. The actions of the crew look sinister, but they would also fit the profile of someone suffering from hypoxia.

If there's one thing this has done it's show just how outdated aircraft tracking is.


----------



## McLovin (16 March 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> Would I be correct in assuming that Australia has sufficient radar etc to be sure that it hasn't landed / crashed on land in Australia?




Yes. JORN can apparently see things in such detail that it would be aware of a Cessna taking off in Indonesia. It has an unofficial range as far as Singapore.


----------



## McLovin (16 March 2014)

Here's a map that shows the last ping from the aircraft, a fuel range and all airports by runway length...

http://i.imgur.com/Iwa6Ali.jpg

A 777 needs at least 5000ft.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 March 2014)

DB008 said:


> Where do you get 171k L of Jet A1 fuel?




If it was landed at a military base then it would all be pretty easy. Put a properly trained pilot on board as hijacker, hijack the plane, land it, put it in a hangar out of sight. And they already have access to the required fuel at such a location or could at least get hold of it.

But in that case we're saying that a national government has hijacked a plane, landed it, and kept both the plane and passengers who originate from numerous countries. Whilst not totally impossible, it seems an incredibly unlikely scenario.

If someone wants a plane for use in a later terrorist attack, and is doing so with the full support of a national government or at least its' military, then it would likely be easier to just get some money together and buy an old plane from an airline via a normal sale process that arouses no suspicion. That would be a lot easier than hijacking and having half the world out looking for it.

This all seems very unlikely to me.....


----------



## bellenuit (16 March 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> If it was landed at a military base then it would all be pretty easy. Put a properly trained pilot on board as hijacker, hijack the plane, land it, put it in a hangar out of sight. And they already have access to the required fuel at such a location or could at least get hold of it.
> 
> But in that case we're saying that a national government has hijacked a plane, landed it, and kept both the plane and passengers who originate from numerous countries. Whilst not totally impossible, it seems an incredibly unlikely scenario.
> 
> ...




I wasn't suggesting that the plan was to hide the plane or refuel at a hidden airfield.  I thought they may have planned to refuel it at any accessible airfield and then, with the extra range available, fly it to some target that is strategically important to the US or its allies. Disclosing the target an hour or so before reaching the target but declaring their plan is just to land nearby would put the US/Allies in the intolerable position of choosing between their people/resources (as it would be apparent that they would planning a 9/11 style attack and not land) or the Chinese passengers. The implications for US/Chinese relations would be enormous, should they shoot the plane down. 

What made me think along those lines was the apparent route westwards shown on the map in post #58. The second last turn put the plane on a direct NNE line to Phuket, which is capable of landing and refueling a 777. Phuket is also the source of the stolen passports, so they might have been planning on adding more people or something else at that location. There was obviously some change of plan or circumstance that caused them to again turn westwards before reaching Phuket.


----------



## Bintang (16 March 2014)

Apparently the Captain of MH370 Zahari Amad Shah was a political activist and die-hard supporter of the Malaysian opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim. If so he cannot have been happy about the recent jailing (for the second time) of Anwar Ibrahim on trumped up charges of sodomy.
This could have been a strong motive for Captain Shah to  'hijack' his own plane and would be highly, highly embarrassing to the Malaysian Government.
Perhaps behind the scenes 'demands' have already been made - such as for example - release Anwar Ibrahim.
The Malaysian authorities will not be in a hurry to make that sort of thing public.


----------



## rumpole (16 March 2014)

Bintang said:


> Apparently the Captain of MH370 Zahari Amad Shah was a political activist and die-hard supporter of the Malaysian opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim. If so he cannot have been happy about the recent jailing (for the second time) of Anwar Ibrahim on trumped up charges of sodomy.
> This could have been a strong motive for Captain Shah to  'hijack' his own plane and would be highly, highly embarrassing to the Malaysian Government.
> Perhaps behind the scenes 'demands' have already been made - such as for example - release Anwar Ibrahim.
> The Malaysian authorities will not be in a hurry to make that sort of thing public.




If the pilot did that, he would broadcast his demands to a wider audience than just Malaysia, and the question still remains "where in the world are they" ?


----------



## drsmith (16 March 2014)

cogs said:


> I would be curious to know what, if any information has been obtained from mobile phone usage, iPhone's 'find my phone feature' and triangulating call out's etc.
> 
> It is likely there were over 200 phones on this flight, which most likely should have been turned off, but it could be possible one or more could have been left on.
> 
> Surely the authorities (whichever one pulls the most strings) has contacted all relatives to those on board and used the latest tech, to try and locate a phone? Someone knows something more than they will let on.



I did see an article during the week saying that mobile phones of passengers could be rung and a ring tone obtained up to some hours after the flight disappeared from civilian radar, but not the next day.


----------



## Bintang (16 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> If the pilot did that, he would broadcast his demands to a wider audience than just Malaysia, and the question still remains "where in the world are they" ?




Possibly but I still have an inkling there might be a connection between the disappearance of MH370 and Anwar Ibrahim.
If Captain Shah is involved he would need support and co-operation from someone on the ground at whatever location he was taking the aircraft to and he would either need the co-operation of his co-pilot Fariq Hamid or else he would have to ‘disable’ the co-pilot.

Captain Shah has some interesting stuff on his facebook page. (He clearly doesn't like the 'establishment'). For example:




And the co-pilot's facebook page is interesting as well. It says that he works for Malaysia Airlines but lives in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.


----------



## rumpole (16 March 2014)

Bintang said:


> Possibly but I still have an inkling there might be a connection between the disappearance of MH370 and Anwar Ibrahim.
> If Captain Shah is involved he would need support and co-operation from someone on the ground at whatever location he was taking the aircraft to and he would either need the co-operation of his co-pilot Fariq Hamid or else he would have to ‘disable’ the co-pilot.
> 
> Captain Shah has some interesting stuff on his facebook page. (He clearly doesn't like the 'establishment'). For example:
> ...




I guess he's lucky he still has(had) a job after that.

Anyway, off to watch Air Crash Investigation; QF32 engine explosion, should be fascinating and thankfully no casualties.


----------



## drsmith (16 March 2014)

Bintang said:


> Possibly but I still have an inkling there might be a connection between the disappearance of MH370 and Anwar Ibrahim.



If that's the case, it won't do Anwar Ibrahim any favours.


----------



## Bintang (16 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> If that's the case, it won't do Anwar Ibrahim any favours.




Anwar Ibrahim has been 'out of favours' for a long time already.


----------



## DB008 (16 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> I can reduce that search area slightly. It's not in my back yard.
> 
> Within the circle, there are apparently two flight path options. One northwest from Malaysia towards Turkey and the other southwest over the Indian Ocean.




Check again Doc.



> *Ocean Off Perth Called Diverted Malaysian Plane's Most Likely Last Position*
> 
> The weeklong search for a missing passenger jet shifted toward the Indian Ocean as Malaysia’s prime minister agreed with investigators that the aircraft was intentionally diverted.
> 
> ...







> Satellite transmission data analyzed by U.S. investigators showed that the Malaysian Airline (MAS) System Bhd. jetliner’s most likely last-known position was in a zone about 1,000 miles (1,609 kilometers) west of Perth, Australia, said two people in the U.S. government who are familiar with the readings. Najib was told that is the most promising lead on locating the plane, one of the people said.





http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-15/malaysia-sets-new-search-zone-as-flight-deliberately-diverted.html


----------



## skc (17 March 2014)

There was either a hijacking or not a hijacking. It seems to me these are the most probable explanations under each scenario.

Hijacking...


Smurf1976 said:


> So I'm thinking that it's plausible that the plane was hijacked by someone with enough knowledge to keep it flying but who either couldn't, or didn't want to, land it. Therefore just keep flying until the fuel runs out.
> 
> In that case it could have been part of a plot that went wrong. Eg they intended to fly it into something in a 9/11 style attack (building, bridge, whatever) but messed that part up so just kept flying and crashed once the fuel ran out.




May be the Petronas twin towers? Not sure about motive but it will be consistent with the sharp U-turn made so close to leaving KL. If they wanted to not be tracked, they'd takeover the plane closer to the middle of the South China Sea and further away from populated radar areas.

I can't really accept the stealing a plane theory. It doesn't make sense to plan an attack with this being the first part... it's high risk and completely unnecessary. Unless there's someone really important on the plane who's the actual target.


No hijacking...

Some fault happened with the aircraft, incapacitating the crew and resulting in the plane flying in a path that by shear chance looks like it was trying to avoid radar. I haven't seen anything released yet that supports a "conclusive" view of hijacking... but it wouldn't surprise me that Malaysian governments will release more information in the future.



McLovin said:


> The actions of the crew look sinister, but they would also fit the profile of someone suffering from hypoxia.




Agree. It's hard to be conclusive about the intent of the pilot by looking at his flight path. It's like reading share price chart and concluding what the CEO of the company is thinking...



rumpole said:


> Given the latest reports of its course, the only thing that makes sense to me at the moment is that they suffered a total loss of electronic systems, including navigation and radios, got lost and wandered around not knowing where they were until they ran out of fuel and crashed.
> 
> As they were flying at night it would be easy to lose their bearings.




Without being knowledgable in aircraft or flying, surely they can still gain some bearing with simple methods like a compass, stars and moon (apparantly it was a clear sky), or lights from major ports and highways and coastlines and cities etc. If they had any control of the aircraft at all, they shouldn't be completely lost and be so far away. A ghost flight is possible but will require something happening to the crew in addition to just system failure.


----------



## rumpole (17 March 2014)

skc said:


> Without being knowledgable in aircraft or flying, surely they can still gain some bearing with simple methods like a compass, stars and moon (apparantly it was a clear sky), or lights from major ports and highways and coastlines and cities etc. If they had any control of the aircraft at all, they shouldn't be completely lost and be so far away. A ghost flight is possible but will require something happening to the crew in addition to just system failure.




One would hope so, but pilots rely on electronics a lot these days. How often do they actually practise manual navigation ? If all the electronic systems went down, they would have had a difficult enough job just keeping the plane in the air.


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2014)

It seems to keep going back to a pilot turning hijacker.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/world/a/22013958/last-words-from-jet-after-systems-shutdown/


----------



## drsmith (17 March 2014)

DB008 said:


> Check again Doc.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-15/malaysia-sets-new-search-zone-as-flight-deliberately-diverted.html



It would be a very high tide indeed if the Indian Ocean was to reach my back yard. 

I agree that a track to the southwest from Malaysia over the Indian Ocean could take it to the west of Perth.


----------



## drsmith (17 March 2014)

Terrain masking,

http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...under-radar-investigators-20140317-hvjlf.html


----------



## skc (17 March 2014)

sptrawler said:


> It seems to keep going back to a pilot turning hijacker.
> 
> http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/world/a/22013958/last-words-from-jet-after-systems-shutdown/




They couldn't even thell who's voice it was for those last words.

Can't they analyse the voices like they do on the crime shows? Filter out the static and here how many people are breathing in the cockpit at the time?


----------



## McLovin (17 March 2014)

DB008 said:


> Check again Doc.
> 
> Satellite transmission data analyzed by U.S. investigators showed that the Malaysian Airline (MAS) System Bhd. jetliner’s most likely last-known position was in a zone about 1,000 miles (1,609 kilometers) west of Perth, Australia, said two people in the U.S. government who are familiar with the readings. Najib was told that is the most promising lead on locating the plane, one of the people said.




I don't know how they reached that conclusion. The ping is sent to a geostationary satellite. The only information that can be garnered from the ping is the distance between the aircraft and the satellite. That's why there are arcs extending north and south (the two "corridors"). Essentially you could draw a huge circle around the Earth that could be a last location. Of course because the aircraft didn't have unlimited fuel they only had to draw a couple of arcs extending north and south. So, basically, it's no more likey to have gone south than to have gone north, based on the evidence at hand currently.


----------



## McLovin (17 March 2014)

It would be good if the media can get the story straight!

These stories were both on the front page of smh.com.au...



> But it is understood investigators say it is more likely the plane is in the northern corridor where there are unstable governments, mountainous terrain and extremist groups.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...vestigators-20140317-hvjlf.html#ixzz2wBJSEt4J



> The missing Malaysia Airlines passenger jet was more likely to have travelled along a southern course near Australia, and should have been picked up by Australia's Jindalee radar network if it did so, a leading surveillance analyst said.




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...ays-analyst-20140317-hvjjw.html#ixzz2wBJYN2Il


----------



## Calliope (17 March 2014)

McLovin said:


> It would be good if the media can get the story straight!
> 
> These stories were both on the front page of smh.com.au...






> The missing Malaysia Airlines passenger jet was more likely to have travelled along a southern course near Australia, and should have been picked up by Australia's Jindalee radar network if it did so, a leading surveillance analyst said



.

Obviously the two Iranian asylum seekers on board were heading for Christmas Island in an attempt to circumvent Abbott's "turn back the boats" policy. Let's hope it doesn't catch on.

Seriously folks, we should move on...nothing to see here!


----------



## CanOz (17 March 2014)

I think its getting seriously grim for the flight. Unless the aircraft has landed and the passengers disembarked, the hijackers waiting for for the opportune time for their 15 minutes of fame, then its pretty darn remote that it will be found.

Of course, now that *I've* said that, watch them find it...


----------



## explod (17 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> I think its getting seriously grim for the flight. Unless the aircraft has landed and the passengers disembarked, the hijackers waiting for for the opportune time for their 15 minutes of fame, then its pretty darn remote that it will be found.
> 
> Of course, now that *I've* said that, watch them find it...




Could be right canoz,

But 23,600 kilos of tender meat at say (supposed to,be like pork) and you have $190,000, throw in a coupla good engines, garage sale the luggage,

Could be a good weeks work but the whole thing probably blew to bits and authorities just do not want to admit sleeping at the wheel.


----------



## CanOz (17 March 2014)

explod said:


> But 23,600 kilos of tender meat at say (supposed to,be like pork) and you have $190,000,




sheeesh Explod, thats a bit rough init?


----------



## trainspotter (17 March 2014)

Ermmmmmmm explod ... have you taken your medication today?


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> One would hope so, but pilots rely on electronics a lot these days. How often do they actually practise manual navigation ? If all the electronic systems went down, they would have had a difficult enough job just keeping the plane in the air.




I don't know about large planes specifically, but in general once a new technology comes in then the skill to do it manually is gradually lost. Eg you probably don't know how to cook dinner on a wood burning stove whereas your great grandmother did it every day. Etc.  

That plus the new technology then enables us to build and do things that weren't previously possible at all. Is it even possible to fly a 777 without the electronics? Maybe it is but I would assume it's not as the electronics would be integral to everything.

Back to the missing plane, the more I hear about this whole incident, the less it sounds like an accident or structural / mechanical / electrical problem with the plane and the more it sounds like it was deliberate. The only thing that still seems doubtful to me is whether or not they could have landed somewhere reasonably safely (for whatever reason).


----------



## basilio (17 March 2014)

I think there is a  very reasonable chance this plane has landed  intact somewhere.

As the situation unfolds it seems more and more possible (IMO) that some very clever people may have managed to hijack the plane, turned off the navigation systems and  taken it "somewhere".

It seems it isn't a terrorist act of killing ( no one has put their hand  up) and it was deliberately  sidetracked.  If that is the case then one would think the perps would have had a plan to bring it down safely.  Otherwise what was the point ?

Now we can really let our imagination go...

1) International kidnapping with a  $500m price on the heads of the passengers ?
2) Something really special on the plane (person, information, luggage) that was really wanted by  "powers that be" 
3) A first attempt by secret service org to  prove they could  kidnap  aplane in flight ?
4) Alien abduction ????
5) Day 14 of the 2014 version of The Truman show ?


----------



## bellenuit (17 March 2014)

basilio said:


> I think there is a  very reasonable chance this plane has landed  intact




If this guy's calculations and observations are correct, then it would seem that the plane could have avoided detection and landed intact in one of the 'stans by closely tailing a Singapore Airways flight.


http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68


----------



## rumpole (17 March 2014)

basilio said:


> I think there is a  very reasonable chance this plane has landed  intact somewhere.
> 
> As the situation unfolds it seems more and more possible (IMO) that some very clever people may have managed to hijack the plane, turned off the navigation systems and  taken it "somewhere".
> 
> ...





Wouldn't surprise me if it was Mossad. 

They seem to be able to pull off some pretty neat stunts.


----------



## bellenuit (17 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if it was Mossad.
> 
> They seem to be able to pull off some pretty neat stunts.




I don't think they would want to get on the wrong side of China.


----------



## Julia (17 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> sheeesh Explod, thats a bit rough init?



+1.  Let's retain some element of sensitivity at this stage at least.  I can't imagine what the families of those on board will be going through.


----------



## CanOz (17 March 2014)

bellenuit said:


> If this guy's calculations and observations are correct, then it would seem that the plane could have avoided detection and landed intact in one of the 'stans by closely tailing a Singapore Airways flight.
> 
> 
> http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68




Interesting....


----------



## McLovin (17 March 2014)

Smurf1976 said:


> That plus the new technology then enables us to build and do things that weren't previously possible at all. Is it even possible to fly a 777 without the electronics? Maybe it is but I would assume it's not as the electronics would be integral to everything.




They do have backup analog instruments (altimeter, compass, speed, artificial horizon etc) so that they can still fly IFR. I think that might also include navigation radios so that VOR/ADF's can still be utilised.

Most pilots do actually fly manually when they can for the practice.


----------



## trainspotter (17 March 2014)

I am voting for 4) Alien abduction.

Bring on the probes IMO


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2014)

Could it have been the passengers thwarted a hijack situation?


----------



## Bintang (18 March 2014)

I have no idea how reliable the following is because it was posted on a different forum without any source  references  -  but it is intriguing:

_"No speculation here, these points are all a matter of public record. For anyone interested in all potential lines of inquiry:

Just days before the MH370 incident, Taiwan alerted China’s aviation authorities to a potential terrorist threat involving Beijing airport.
A known local organisation - Tanzim al-Qaeda Malaysia Group - has proven links to global jihadists, including Malaysian-born fighters on the ground in Syria.
The Jemaah Islamiah network (implicated in the Bali nightclub bombing 2002) includes at least one Malaysian with personal links to two of the 9/11 hijackers.
Convicted former Al Qaeda member Saajid Badat (part of failed trans-Atlantic flight shoe-bomb attack), stated in 2012 that a Malaysian Islamist Jihadist group were “plotting to hijack a passenger jet”.
Badat also said “the Malaysian plot was being masterminded by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the principal architect of 9/11”. 
Prof Anthony Glees, director of the University of Buckingham’s Centre for Security and Intelligence Studies, stated “there is evidence of a Malaysian terror cell with ambitions to carry out such an attack”._


----------



## prawn_86 (18 March 2014)

The only logical conclusion I can reach is that they flew through a wormhole into another dimension/universe.

It must be very hard for the relatives and family, all this media speculation tends to take away from the fact that there were hundreds of people on board


----------



## skc (18 March 2014)

Bintang said:


> I have no idea how reliable the following is because it was posted on a different forum without any source  references  -  but it is intriguing:
> 
> _"No speculation here, these points are all a matter of public record. For anyone interested in all potential lines of inquiry:
> 
> ...




Here's a bit more on this line of thought.



> Taiwan's spy chief revealed yesterday that the island's security officials had last week received a warning about possible terrorist attacks on the mainland.
> 
> National Security Bureau chief Tsai De-sheng told a legislative committee that the agency had passed on a warning of planned attacks on Beijing airport and the city's subway system to mainland authorities after receiving it on March 4.




http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/artic...st-attack-china-received-taiwan-days-malaysia


----------



## DB008 (18 March 2014)

*Pakistan, India, Taliban say know nothing about missing plane*



> Taliban - "We wish we had an opportunity to hijack such a plane," he told Reuters by telephone from the lawless North Waziristan region.




http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/us-malaysia-airlines-southasia-idUSBREA2G10320140317


----------



## skc (18 March 2014)

So the latest search area is along 2 sweeping "arc" corridors determined from the last ping with the SatCom. 

Apparently these pings occur roughly on an hourly basis. So there are probably 5 or 6 more pings transmitted before that last ping. So each of the ping should product two similar arcs as the last one. These earlier arcs will cover a much smaller area, due to less time lapse from the last known location and potentially, areas being ruled out due to overlapping of satellite coverage. 

Take this series of earlier, shorter arcs, and combined them with information from primary radar coverage, the investigators should be able to rule out even more places where the plane can't be. 

If I can think of this sitting at ahome, then surely the investigators are doing it to find out more. I hope there'd be an update within the next 24 hours on a dramatically narrowed down search zones.


----------



## rumpole (18 March 2014)

Pure speculation , but maybe the lack of observable wreckage may be due to the fact that it made a soft landing on water, remaining intact, and just sank to the bottom in one piece


----------



## drsmith (18 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Pure speculation , but maybe the lack of observable wreckage may be due to the fact that it made a soft landing on water, remaining intact, and just sank to the bottom in one piece



The lack of observable wreckage is a product of not knowing precisely where it came down. Over the Indian Ocean, this is made worse by the vastness of the search area and the potential for drift with often changing weather conditions and the time period since the flight was lost.

If someone flew it out over the middle of an ocean as a suicide flight, they're not going to be too worried about how many pieces the plane was in after it hit the water.


----------



## rumpole (18 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> The lack of observable wreckage is a product of not knowing precisely where it came down. Over the Indian Ocean, this is made worse by the vastness of the search area and the potential for drift with often changing weather conditions and the time period since the flight was lost.
> 
> If someone flew it out over the middle of an ocean as a suicide flight, they're not going to be too worried about how many pieces the plane was in after it hit the water.




It's still supposition that it was a "suicide flight". There have been so many false leads and red herrings that no one seems to know anything at all.


----------



## drsmith (18 March 2014)

If it went out over the Indian Ocean beyond the reach of land in terms of fuel, it wasn't going for a picnic.


----------



## rumpole (18 March 2014)

drsmith said:


> If it went out over the Indian Ocean beyond the reach of land in terms of fuel, it wasn't going for a picnic.




Now they are going to search 3200 km south west of Perth. No terrorist targets or landing strips out there.  
Unless they just got lost or went crackers there is not much reason to be there.


----------



## trainspotter (18 March 2014)

I think the plane that says "All right, good night" then communications / transponders shutdown then followed by erratic change in flight paths would suggest something untoward IMO. Climbing to 45,000 feet just after turning west, before dropping to about 23,000 feet seems a tad difficult to do without either the pilot or copilot saying "WTF are you doing man?" also would mean reprogramming the flight management system as well. I am sure some of the passengers/flight crew would be querying as to the sudden aerobatics of the plane? 

Someone with detailed knowledge of flight paths and operational systems of the plane as well as radar placement concludes that the pilot or copilot is the culprit my dear Watson. Or it could be these guys ...


----------



## CanOz (18 March 2014)

I hope to (someones) god I'm wrong, but i have a sneaking suspicion that the next time we see this aircraft it may be just before it slams into some landmark target of some crazy religious following!


----------



## drsmith (18 March 2014)

CanOz said:


> I hope to (someones) god I'm wrong, but i have a sneaking suspicion that the next time we see this aircraft it may be just before it slams into some landmark target of some crazy religious following!



One thing's for sure.

They'll be a reworking of the tracking large commercial airlines such as the ability of those in the cockpit to actively disable external tracking I would imagine.


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## trainspotter (18 March 2014)

> Hours before Flight MH370 left Kuala Lumpur, the pilot is said to have attended a controversial trial in which Ibrahim - who has been harassed and jailed on successive charges of homosexuality and sodomy - was jailed for five years.
> Police sources say Captain Shah was a political activist and fear that the court decision left him profoundly upset.




http://www.news.com.au/world/search...to-anwar-ibrahim/story-fndir2ev-1226857475087

Hmmmmmm ... political activist? Upset pilot? Flight simulator with 5 runways reachable by MH370? Getting warmer ... getting warmer peoples.


----------



## rumpole (18 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> http://www.news.com.au/world/search...to-anwar-ibrahim/story-fndir2ev-1226857475087
> 
> Hmmmmmm ... political activist? Upset pilot? Flight simulator with 5 runways reachable by MH370? Getting warmer ... getting warmer peoples.




So why did he just disappear instead of broadcasting his message to all and sundry over his radios ? 

Doesn't seem kosher that he would not even issue an explanation of why he was crashing the plane if that was his intention.


----------



## trainspotter (18 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> So why did he just disappear instead of broadcasting his message to all and sundry over his radios ?
> 
> Doesn't seem kosher that he would not even issue an explanation of why he was crashing the plane if that was his intention.




You didn't read my post or read the link now did you? _Flight simulator with 5 runways reachable by MH370?_

Also not really sure what goes through the mind of a deranged political activist pilot. Not in my pay scale to contemplate.


----------



## drsmith (18 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> http://www.news.com.au/world/search...to-anwar-ibrahim/story-fndir2ev-1226857475087
> 
> Hmmmmmm ... political activist? Upset pilot? Flight simulator with 5 runways reachable by MH370? Getting warmer ... getting warmer peoples.



The information in that article clears up one thing at least,



> Authorities in Kuala Lumpur revealed that the last words ”” “all right good night”, said to Malaysian air traffic control at 1.19am on March 8, were those of 27-year-old Fariq Abdul Hamid.
> 
> Until now it was not known who last spoke on the airwaves. Those words came after one of the plane’s communications system was shut down.
> 
> ...




More on the flight simulator,

http://english.astroawani.com/news/...nd-in-captain-zaharies-flight-simulator-32034


----------



## So_Cynical (18 March 2014)

I find it hard to buy into the suicide theories based on the simple fact that if your going to suicide and kill all aboard, why wait, why avoid radar and turn off the ACARS etc etc....wouldn't you just do it? assuming that one of the pilots has already killed the other to gain control of the aircraft.

So ruling out suicide leaves us with murder/hijack and theft of the aircraft for later use, as totally bizarre as that sounds...following the Singapore Airlines flight seems plausible if your stealing the plane and makes the rest of it (everything before the Straights of Malacca) make sense.

And that leads us to why steal a large passenger jet...hostages and or a big dirty nuke seems to be the obvious.


----------



## CanOz (18 March 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I find it hard to buy into the suicide theories based on the simple fact that if your going to suicide and kill all aboard, why wait, why avoid radar and turn off the ACARS etc etc....wouldn't you just do it? assuming that one of the pilots has already killed the other to gain control of the aircraft.
> 
> So ruling out suicide leaves us with murder/hijack and theft of the aircraft for later use, as totally bizarre as that sounds...following the Singapore Airlines flight seems plausible if your stealing the plane and makes the rest of it (everything before the Straights of Malacca) make sense.
> 
> And that leads us to why steal a large passenger jet...hostages or a big dirty nuke.




Yup, agree on that....


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 March 2014)

There is a simple explanation for what happened but I'm buggered if I know what it is.

gg


----------



## drsmith (18 March 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> There is a simple explanation for what happened but I'm buggered if I know what it is.
> 
> gg



You're not alone there.


----------



## Bintang (19 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> You didn't read my post or read the link now did you? _Flight simulator with 5 runways reachable by MH370?_



Mmmm ….I think a reality check is needed on that. The article you quoted says:

_“Meanwhile, *unconfirmed* reports in Malaysian media also say investigators probing the homemade flight simulator of Capt Zaharie Shah have found five runways from Indian Ocean airports programmed into it.
The Berita Harian Malay language paper quotes *unnamed sources* close to the investigation as saying that the airport runways were Male International Airport in the Maldives, Diego Garcia and three runways in India and Sri Lanka. The *source* is quoted as saying that all the runways programmed into the simulator are *1000* metres long.”
_
Notice the word “unconfirmed”
Even if confirmed, either the source or the reporter have made a factual error about all runways being 1000 meters. Who knows where the supposed airports in India might be but a simple check using Google Earth gave me the following runway lengths:

*Diego Garcia – 3590* meters (Does the USA know more than it is telling?)
*Male Maldives – 3000* meters (look at the surrounding infrastructure - surely it couldn’t land there without someone having seen it)
*Sri Lanka – 2170* meters (assuming it’s Jaffna airport – is there perhaps a Tamil Tiger connection? but unless a big hangar has been built recently where would the plane be now – see photo.

*Conclusion:* _ "the 5 airports programmed into the simulator"_ statement is just another red-herring from an unknown, unconfirmed, unreliable source.

Sri Lanka



Diego Garcia



Maldives


----------



## trainspotter (19 March 2014)

Ohhhhhh  Bintang ... well spotted !!


----------



## Bintang (19 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Ohhhhhh  Bintang ... well spotted !!




Makes one seriously wonder about the quality of journalism these days. Took me about 10 minute to get those pictures. You would think a reporter could do some basic checks before publishing. But then again maybe "un-named and unconfirmed" is code for  -  'the reporter just made the whole thing up'.


----------



## CanOz (20 March 2014)

Malaysia Airlines MH370: RAAF Orions en route to possible debris in Indian Ocean



> Australian search planes have been diverted to find two objects in the southern Indian Ocean "possibly related" to the search for the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.


----------



## drsmith (20 March 2014)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-20/abbott-says-possible-objects-found-mh370/5334314

AMSA press conference at 3:30pm EST.


----------



## bellenuit (23 March 2014)

This theory is something that occurred to me too. The captain and co-pilot were threatening to ditch the plane in the sea where no one could ever find it if the Malaysian opposition leader Ibrahim was not released. Malaysia thought they could call their bluff, but they went through with it. It would explain Malaysia's reticence in releasing facts about the flight and its flight path and in fact apparently sending the rescue ships on a wild goose chase in the South China Sea. 

The political embarrassment for Malaysia would be enormous if the failed negotiations became known.  They risked the lives of 230 odd Chinese citizens to prevent an innocent politician being released when everyone knows the sodomy charges were just trumped up. If the negotiations were captured on some voice recorder, the Malaysian government would do its best to hamper or delay any attempt at finding the lost plane so that the voice recorder could not be found or would likely be damaged if exposed to the elements for a considerable time.

http://sofrep.com/34084/alright-goodnight-malaysia-want-know-happened-flight-mh-370/


----------



## So_Cynical (23 March 2014)

bellenuit said:


> This theory is something that occurred to me too. The captain and co-pilot were threatening to ditch the plane in the sea where no one could ever find it if the Malaysian opposition leader Ibrahim was not released. Malaysia thought they could call their bluff, but they went through with it. It would explain Malaysia's reticence in releasing facts about the flight and its flight path and in fact apparently sending the rescue ships on a wild goose chase in the South China Sea.




Ok not bad, makes slightly more sense than straight out Southern Ocean suicide.


----------



## McLovin (23 March 2014)

bellenuit said:


> This theory is something that occurred to me too. The captain and co-pilot were threatening to ditch the plane in the sea where no one could ever find it if the Malaysian opposition leader Ibrahim was not released. Malaysia thought they could call their bluff, but they went through with it. It would explain Malaysia's reticence in releasing facts about the flight and its flight path and in fact apparently sending the rescue ships on a wild goose chase in the South China Sea.
> 
> The political embarrassment for Malaysia would be enormous if the failed negotiations became known.  They risked the lives of 230 odd Chinese citizens to prevent an innocent politician being released when everyone knows the sodomy charges were just trumped up. If the negotiations were captured on some voice recorder, the Malaysian government would do its best to hamper or delay any attempt at finding the lost plane so that the voice recorder could not be found or would likely be damaged if exposed to the elements for a considerable time.
> 
> http://sofrep.com/34084/alright-goodnight-malaysia-want-know-happened-flight-mh-370/




They have combed through the crews' lives and have found nothing. It seems pretty unlikely that someone who is pro-democracy would commit an act of terrorism that would kill 230 completely innocent people.

I still think crew incapacitation seems the most likely scenario.

I was speaking to a retired 777 captain a few days ago, he said the hijack/suicide scenario was media BS. Although he didn't really know what happened, he thought the most likely scenario was a fire possibly from the nosewheel brake. When that comes up it it sits right where all the avionics and radios are.


----------



## skc (25 March 2014)

skc said:


> If I can think of this sitting at ahome, then surely the investigators are doing it to find out more. I hope there'd be an update within the next 24 hours on a dramatically narrowed down search zones.






> Satellite data can help to refine the plane's location by extrapolating a rough location from the time it takes for the 'ping' to be picked up by a satellite.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-...unce-mh370-lost-southern-indian-ocean/5328552

Good old doppler effect. Who says high school physics is useless in real life? How does a global satellite company with teams of scientists not think of that much earlier? 

At least they now know they are looking in the correct hemisphere. It's still a difficult task to find it though.

Makes you wonder if they were there looking from 2 weeks earlier, whether they'd find more debris on the sea.


----------



## CanOz (25 March 2014)

McLovin said:


> I was speaking to a retired 777 captain a few days ago, he said the hijack/suicide scenario was media BS. Although he didn't really know what happened, he thought the most likely scenario was a fire possibly from the nosewheel brake. When that comes up it it sits right where all the avionics and radios are.




Yeah, i read something last week about a fire as a possible explanation and it seems the mostly explanation in my mind now, but if its found to be true i can only imagine how the passengers and crew must have felt, suffocating slowly like that. 

It seems there are still so many things that can wrong in an aircraft, so many new areas to apply good technology to save lives....


----------



## trainspotter (25 March 2014)

Not sure about the fire theory as the plane kept flying for 7 hours and 5100kms?

Just read there were 200kg of lithium ion batteries on board. Could be an ignition source ?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/46...T-over-lithium-mobile-phone-battery-FIRE-RISK


----------



## CanOz (25 March 2014)

The conspiracy theory regarding the flight being held for ransom until they released this opposition leader is gaining traction on We Chat (Chinese Twitter). There are many calling for strong action against Malaysia, starting with closing the airports to the airline. 

I wonder why they don't fuss about the thousands of coal miners that die every year....


----------



## rumpole (25 March 2014)

Considering the distance the plane flew, it's strange none of the passengers tried to text or call relatives, as far as we know. Which seems to indicate they were dead or incapacitated when the aircraft was flying. Unless there was a large group of hijackers, it would be difficult for one or two to control the whole passenger load.


----------



## trainspotter (25 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Considering the distance the plane flew, it's strange none of the passengers tried to text or call relatives, as far as we know. Which seems to indicate they were dead or incapacitated when the aircraft was flying. Unless there was a large group of hijackers, it would be difficult for one or two to control the whole passenger load.




Seeing how the flying time to Kuala Lumpur to Beijing is a little over 6 hours and the plane stayed in the air for over 7 hours +- a bit, the passengers and crew might not have known any different? "This is your captain speaking we are currently flying into some bad weather and we will need to fly around it." (after he has incapacitated or decapitated the co-pilot) Seeing how it was a night time flight *A LOT* of the passengers would have been asleep and more than likely none the wiser. Crew would not be suspicious as after the "flying around the bad weather" announcement the plane levels out to 30,000 feet and continues South instead of North. Pilot has now placed up sign on the screens saying "data not available for location" which is a common occurrence. The only thing that might be suss would be the crew not gaining access to the cockpit for a period of time. Pilot leaves cockpit for toilet break and places plane on auto pilot. Nobody would be suspicious until the plane is coming in for *crash* landing "This is your captain speaking, we are coming in for final approach. Crew prepare cabin for landing" *SPLASHDOWN*


----------



## bellenuit (25 March 2014)

I thought the Abbott government was handling the issue perfectly until the Minister for Defence, David Johnston, called a press conference at noon (WST) today and announced nothing of consequence. I had been following the issue on several channels and most were awaiting the conference with anticipation seeing it was called at short notice and was been given by a government minister. Where Abbott's pronouncements were short, respectful, sensitive and of sufficient import to require delivery by the PM, Johnston was just a distraction and appeared to me that he just wanted a photo op. 

The disappointment on some of the channels at his waste of time appearance was evident though unstated.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 March 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Seeing how it was a night time flight *A LOT* of the passengers would have been asleep and more than likely none the wiser.



I think it's fair to say that on any plane flight at night then unless you spot an obvious illuminated landmark out the window (eg a city etc) then the average person has no idea where they are at any given time. Most passengers don't have a window seat, most of those who do have window seats won't be looking out the window anyway, and of the few that are looking many won't be familiar with the route thus having no idea of what they ought to be looking at anyway.

Unless there's something really obvious that most will recognise as being wrong, eg flight from Melbourne to Perth ends up flying over Sydney, then nobody is likely to question the location of a plane unless they're already aware that there's a hijacking or similar going on.

So depending on the circumstances, it's possible that passengers had no idea there was a problem until the plane actually hit the water (or wherever it has crashed).


----------



## McLovin (26 March 2014)

rumpole said:


> Considering the distance the plane flew, it's strange none of the passengers tried to text or call relatives, as far as we know. Which seems to indicate they were dead or incapacitated when the aircraft was flying. Unless there was a large group of hijackers, it would be difficult for one or two to control the whole passenger load.




How do you call someone in the middle of the ocean?

I guess you could use those sat phones in the seat, if they were installed, but very likely that they weren't working if everything else wasn't.


----------



## CanOz (26 March 2014)

*What Really Concerns China About Flight 370?*



> 27 Mar 25, 2014 2:11 PM ET
> By William Pesek
> 
> Let's acknowledge what's obvious: The way Malaysia has handled the loss of Flight 370 has been pathetic. What's less obvious is China's role in this sorry spectacle.
> ...




The funny thing is, its getting this obvious to Westerners...


----------



## drsmith (28 March 2014)

Another twist,



> The search area for missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 has dramatically shifted, with efforts now to concentrate on a zone 1100 kilometres north-east of the previous location due to the “most credible lead” yet.
> 
> The new search area was calibrated after further analysis of radar data that indicated the aircraft was travelling faster than previously estimated, meaning it would have burnt fuel more quickly.



The time it was in the air I would have thought would have been fixed (to within the nearest hour) by the communication it was making to a satellite as reported earlier.

If the above though is correct, the aircraft would have been in the air for less time, perhaps significantly less with respect to travelling faster given the shorter overall distance travelled.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/miss...atic-shift-in-search-area-20140328-35nco.html


----------



## bellenuit (5 April 2014)

*Report: Chinese ship hears pulse signal in south Indian Ocean*

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/05/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 April 2014)

drsmith said:


> If the above though is correct, the aircraft would have been in the air for less time, perhaps significantly less with respect to travelling faster given the shorter overall distance travelled.




Over the years I've heard plenty of references to aircraft "dumping" fuel prior to an emergency landing, this being both to reduce weight and to minimise the extent of fire should the aircraft actually crash whilst attempting the unplanned landing. 

So I assume that there is some mechanism that the pilot can activate to "dump" fuel out of the plane's tanks whilst it's flying. That being so, if someone is going to intentionally crash a plane then the amount of fuel on board represents a maximum flying distance but certainly not a minimum. They could presumably just dump most of the fuel rather than burning it.

Jet fuel evaporates pretty easily so if the plane was still at high altitude at the time of dumping fuel then I doubt that there would be any trace of it at ground level since it wouldn't actually reach the ground as a liquid. 

Just a thought.


----------



## McLovin (11 April 2014)

AFR reporting black box has been located.


----------



## skc (11 April 2014)

McLovin said:


> AFR reporting black box has been located.






> Mr Abbott told reporters in Beijing on Friday that Australian authorities were
> confident they knew where the black box was, fuelling speculation the Joint Agency
> Coordination Centre (JACC) was poised to announce a breakthrough.
> But chief coordinator, retired Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, said an initial
> ...




Conflicting report from Angus Houston.

I wonder where these "possible signal" comes from? In the middle of the Indian ocen, thousands of km's from anywhere...


----------



## skc (11 April 2014)

I also don't understand how the Ping could have been heard from such vast distances apart... the different hits seem to be some 40km apart, while the earlier Chinese signals where 600km away. 

Again, if some of these signals are false, where the hell do they come from and how do we know that not all the signals are false?

May be there are other stuff down there creating the signal.

Anyone played the game X-Com series? Terror from the Deep anyone?!


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2014)

skc said:


> I also don't understand how the Ping could have been heard from such vast distances apart... the different hits seem to be some 40km apart, while the earlier Chinese signals where 600km away.
> 
> Again, if some of these signals are false, where the hell do they come from and how do we know that not all the signals are false?
> 
> ...




As I understand it, the signals are acoustic (sound) , not radio because radio doesn't work very well under water, at least not  at frequencies that are easy to generate. Similar acoustic noises are made by dolphins, which is why they require to pick up the signals in a defined area to rule out the sounds of dolphin passing through.


----------



## CanOz (11 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> As I understand it, the signals are acoustic (sound) , not radio because radio doesn't work very well under water, at least not  at frequencies that are easy to generate. Similar acoustic noises are made by dolphins, which is why they require to pick up the signals in a defined area to rule out the sounds of dolphin passing through.




err no they're a very specific frequency, unique in the ocean world. Didn't you get the memo?


----------



## skc (11 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> As I understand it, the signals are acoustic (sound) , not radio because radio doesn't work very well under water, at least not  at frequencies that are easy to generate. Similar acoustic noises are made by dolphins, which is why they require to pick up the signals in a defined area to rule out the sounds of dolphin passing through.




I read somewhere that the sound frequency of the blackbox was specifically chosen to be distinct from other natural sources. It would be quite an oversight if it's the same as dolphins.

I also remember reading that the blackbox sound has a range of ~7miles... or 11km give or take. Hence my question on how they could have picked up signals from so far apart.

P.S. Where did I say the signal was a radio frequency?


----------



## SirRumpole (11 April 2014)

CanOz said:


> err no they're a very specific frequency, unique in the ocean world. Didn't you get the memo?




Fair enough, I got my info from a science forum, obviously not a very good one.


----------



## CanOz (11 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Fair enough, I got my info from a science forum, obviously not a very good one.




Bloody forums hey Sir?

This is not where i read it the first time but its along the same lines...

Scientists: Search Crews Unlikely to Confuse Black Box 'Pings' With Whale Sounds



> Scientists who study marine mammals and their underwater noises told Mashable that it is “difficult to imagine” that Navy analysts, who have been trained to recognize marine sounds, would confuse the pinger sounds with biological sounds. Scientists pointed to the fact that there are major differences between the frequencies at which living species generate noises, as well as the duration and temporal pattern of their sound pulses, compared to those of the acoustic beacons attached to the black boxes.
> 
> Referring to the sound frequency, duration and pattern, Catherine Berchok, a marine acoustics specialist at the federal National Marine Mammal Laboratory in Seattle said she would “assume the aviation black box has a very unique combination of those three things.” At the same time, she says, “Each marine mammal has a particular way it uses these frequencies.”
> 
> ...


----------



## McLovin (11 April 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Fair enough, I got my info from a science forum, obviously not a very good one.




I tried to find the sound but couldn't. Anyway, I've heard one before and it sounds like a clock ticking at precise intervals of one second. It would be really hard to describe it sounding like a dolphin.

ETA: I found it! Here's a sample at 50 seconds of what it is they're trying to listen for...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okWdts65Vkg

It sounds very man-made.


----------



## bellenuit (11 April 2014)

skc said:


> I also remember reading that the blackbox sound has a range of ~7miles... or 11km give or take. Hence my question on how they could have picked up signals from so far apart.




I find the whole signal detection confusing. When they first detected the pings, why didn't they stop the boat? Also, as far as I understand, the detector they were trawling has a range of just a few kilometres (4km I think). If that is the case then why are they saying that detection of the pings has narrowed the search area down to (I think) 11,000 kilometres. Surely 16km would be more accurate. Unless the plane floated for a while, but the black box sank immediately (unlikely they would separate so easily), then surely the plane should be where the black box is, except for some floatable parts that may have drifted.


----------



## McLovin (11 April 2014)

bellenuit said:


> I find the whole signal detection confusing. When they first detected the pings, why didn't they stop the boat? Also, as far as I understand, the detector they were trawling has a range of just a few kilometres (4km I think). If that is the case then why are they saying that detection of the pings has narrowed the search area down to (I think) 11,000 kilometres. Surely 16km would be more accurate. Unless the plane floated for a while, but the black box sank immediately (unlikely they would separate so easily), then surely the plane should be where the black box is, except for some floatable parts that may have drifted.




The ping is not triangulated, it's just "OK it's getting stronger when we go this way. Also don't forget the sea bed where they are searching is not flat, it's quite mountainous. If the BB is located on a hill then as the ship passes over the top of the hill the signal will suddenly drop off. The ping will also reflect and refract as it bounces off the topography. The range the signal can be heard is affected by heaps of variables like the underwater conditions, the sensitivity of the hydrophones etc etc.

I didn't know this but the signal waveform is unique each aircraft, and Boeing will have on record the waveform. So they should be able to confirm its a match. I imagine they are already working on this.


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## skc (11 April 2014)

bellenuit said:


> I find the whole signal detection confusing. When they first detected the pings, why didn't they stop the boat? Also, as far as I understand, the detector they were trawling has a range of just a few kilometres (4km I think). If that is the case then why are they saying that detection of the pings has narrowed the search area down to (I think) 11,000 kilometres. Surely 16km would be more accurate. Unless the plane floated for a while, but the black box sank immediately (unlikely they would separate so easily), then surely the plane should be where the black box is, except for some floatable parts that may have drifted.




Around 4 minutes in, they explain how the sound can enter certain ocean channels and travel many hundreds of miles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqGqZzONv6g

Apparantly there have been cases of un-piloted "ghost" aircrafts landing in the ocean in tact after fuel ran out. Sorry don't have a link - but it was reported during wartimes and after the pilot and crew have ejected. This is a possible reason for no surface debris being spotted, even though they are clsoing in on the black box.


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## baby_swallow (23 April 2014)

http://www.emirates247.com/news/mis...-not-crashed-diego-garcia-2014-04-23-1.546548

It amazes me the no mainstream media ever mentioned the tiny island of Diego Garcia.
Google Earth this island and you will be amazed on what you'll see


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## So_Cynical (23 April 2014)

baby_swallow said:


> http://www.emirates247.com/news/mis...-not-crashed-diego-garcia-2014-04-23-1.546548
> 
> It amazes me the no mainstream media ever mentioned the tiny island of Diego Garcia.
> Google Earth this island and you will be amazed on what you'll see




Its an American Military base on a British island 600 odd clicks south of the Maldives, guessing 2000 clicks from the latest search area...so what?


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## bellenuit (23 April 2014)

Channel 9 reporting possible debris from plane washed up near Augusta on WA's SW coast. Photos being sent to investigators for further analysis.


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## Julia (23 April 2014)

baby_swallow said:


> http://www.emirates247.com/news/mis...-not-crashed-diego-garcia-2014-04-23-1.546548
> 
> It amazes me the no mainstream media ever mentioned the tiny island of Diego Garcia.
> Google Earth this island and you will be amazed on what you'll see






So_Cynical said:


> Its an American Military base on a British island 600 odd clicks south of the Maldives, guessing 2000 clicks from the latest search area...so what?



The theory that the aircraft landed there has been extensively covered on other forums.


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## drsmith (23 April 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Channel 9 reporting possible debris from plane washed up near Augusta on WA's SW coast. Photos being sent to investigators for further analysis.



There's a number of media reports on this now.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-...re-examined-for-links-to-flight-mh370/5407584

https://news.google.com/news?ncl=dE...a=X&ei=97NXU9rwGsijlQWd4oGgCQ&ved=0CDMQqgIwAA


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## noco (26 April 2014)

It is interesting to read some of the fact, myths and comments of what might or might not have happened.

There one comment which stated they had overlooked the northern corridor.....I made comment earlier of the possibility of that plane being hi-jacked and flown to North Korea....The North Koreans are pretty good at this kind of stuff when it comes to secrecy...there were some 180 Chinese on board and it would have been hard to identify the difference between these two Nationalities...there could possibly have been some North Koreans amongst them with false passports.



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/ma...-myths-explained/story-fniztvne-1226896206143


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## bellenuit (27 April 2014)

noco said:


> It is interesting to read some of the fact, myths and comments of what might or might not have happened.
> 
> There one comment which stated they had overlooked the northern corridor.....I made comment earlier of the possibility of that plane being hi-jacked and flown to North Korea....The North Koreans are pretty good at this kind of stuff when it comes to secrecy...there were some 180 Chinese on board and it would have been hard to identify the difference between these two Nationalities...there could possibly have been some North Koreans amongst them with false passports.
> 
> ...




China is their only ally of any significance. I think it would be unlikely that they would want to do anything that might cause a rift between them. 

I still like the theory that the pilot was in contact with Malaysian authorities and threatened to dump the plane in the most remote part of the ocean if they didn't drop charges against Ibrahim. Malaysia thought he was bluffing and now are too embarrassed to admit that they let it get out of hand and caused the deaths of 180 Chinese. Although not giving in to high jackers is normally seen as the correct action, in this case the world knows the sodomy charges against Ibrahim were just trumped up charges, so there would be no sympathy for the Malaysian government's steadfast rejection of the pilot's demands.

It would certainly account for Malaysia's obfuscation in the first few weeks following the plane going missing. The last thing they wanted was the black box and flight recorder data to be found which would reveal what actually went on.


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## noco (27 April 2014)

bellenuit said:


> China is their only ally of any significance. I think it would be unlikely that they would want to do anything that might cause a rift between them.
> 
> I still like the theory that the pilot was in contact with Malaysian authorities and threatened to dump the plane in the most remote part of the ocean if they didn't drop charges against Ibrahim. Malaysia thought he was bluffing and now are too embarrassed to admit that they let it get out of hand and caused the deaths of 180 Chinese. Although not giving in to high jackers is normally seen as the correct action, in this case the world knows the sodomy charges against Ibrahim were just trumped up charges, so there would be no sympathy for the Malaysian government's steadfast rejection of the pilot's demands.
> 
> It would certainly account for Malaysia's obfuscation in the first few weeks following the plane going missing. The last thing they wanted was the black box and flight recorder data to be found which would reveal what actually went on.




Yes ....that is another theory but that "RATBAG" of a president of North Korea would have no consideration for the 180 Chinese on board....he is ruthless in light of the fact that he put to death his own uncle and his family by 120 famished dogs whom had not been fed for three days.....North Korea is the most secretive of any nation in the world.


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## DB008 (27 April 2014)

It could never be found.

Air France took almost 2 years to find, and they had better location coordinates to begin with than MH370.

I'm also putting my neck out there by saying that 1 of the 2 pilots was in on it (older, senior pilot) did this on purpose.


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## Garpal Gumnut (27 April 2014)

The crash site of MH370 is more than likely known.

If the CIA can blow the bejaysus out of some smelly Al Qaida commander sitting in a Nissan Cedric in Waziristan, they sure as hell, must know of the approximate location of this aircraft.

gg


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## DB008 (27 April 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The crash site of MH370 is more than likely known.
> 
> If the CIA can blow the bejaysus out of some smelly Al Qaida commander sitting in a Nissan Cedric in Waziristan, they sure as hell, must know of the approximate location of this aircraft.
> 
> gg




Yes, the CIA/NSA or US Air-Force might have ( = more than likely) tracked the (all aircraft world-wide) aircraft (like they did with KA007 back in '83 and didn't come forward with critical information), doesn't mean that they will tell the Malaysian authorities.


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## DB008 (28 April 2014)

*Missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370: Malaysian prime minister admits lost plane WAS tracked by military radar*



> The Malaysian prime minister has finally confirmed reports that the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 was tracked by military radar, as he prepared to host US President Barack Obama in Kuala Lumpur seven weeks after the plane disappeared.
> 
> Najib Razak said a preliminary report into the incident would be made available to the public over the course of the coming week. It is expected to raise the issue of how Malaysia’s air force and surveillance networks failed to track the plane once it lost contact with civilian air traffic controllers.
> 
> ...




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-malaysian-prime-minister-admits-lost-plane-was-tracked-by-military-radar-9293254.html


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## skc (28 April 2014)

DB008 said:


> *Missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370: Malaysian prime minister admits lost plane WAS tracked by military radar*




These Malaysians are unbelievable! The damage to this country's reputation is a million times worse than the lost plane itself.


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## Garpal Gumnut (28 April 2014)

skc said:


> These Malaysians are unbelievable! The damage to this country's reputation is a million times worse than the lost plane itself.




As awful as it is to consider, one wonders whether or not someone in the region hasn't downed it with a Government controlled SAM. 

Secrecy breeds conspiracy theories. 

Mohatir Mo is a grade one nutter, and his attack on Boeing does Malaysia no favours. 

http://www.smh.com.au/world/former-...g-for-mh370-disappearance-20140427-zr0cz.html

gg


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## bellenuit (28 April 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Mohatir Mo is a grade one nutter, and his attack on Boeing does Malaysia no favours.




He also believes 9/11 was carried out by the US government.


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## noco (29 April 2014)

Could this be another false alarm?

A New York Pilot claims to have found the image that looks like an aircraft off the coast of Thailand.......Around the location of the last communication. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...nes-flight-mh370/story-fniztvng-1226899058918


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## skc (29 April 2014)

noco said:


> Could this be another false alarm?
> 
> A New York Pilot claims to have found the image that looks like an aircraft off the coast of Thailand.......Around the location of the last communication.
> 
> ...




google image "Missing plane found on moon".


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## McLovin (2 May 2014)

Cockpit recording...

http://media.smh.com.au/national/selections/good-night-malaysian-370-5393661.html


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## skc (30 July 2015)

May be...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ian-ocean-island/story-e6frg6so-1227462592242


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## DB008 (31 July 2015)

*MH370: Australian officials 'increasingly confident' Indian Ocean debris is from missing plane​*



> Australian search authorities say they are "increasingly confident" plane debris that washed up on a tiny Indian Ocean island is from missing flight MH370.
> 
> A two-metre-long piece of wreckage ”” believed to be a flaperon of a Boeing 777, the same model aircraft as MH370 ”” was found by people cleaning up a beach on La Reunion, a small island east of Madagascar, on Wednesday.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-31/mh370-australia-increasingly-confident-debris-from-missing-plane/6663264​
How long can the cockpit recorders stay intact for?
Would the sea water have eaten through the casing by now and destroyed the tapes?


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