# Trading Pursuits



## moneydreamer

Anyone got any views on their courses or who have done a course?


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## white_rabit

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

Yeah, I went to one of their day trading seminars to learn about US options with a couple of mates.  I didn't have the capital to start up but my mates bought the  software and they are trading with a bit of success.  It was interesting but nothing extraordinary.


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## The Barbarian Investor

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

*Bump*

Anyone with any insights?


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## wayneL

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



			
				The Barbarian Investor said:
			
		

> *Bump*
> 
> Anyone with any insights?




Their salemanship is Grade A

Their information is Grade D


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## The Barbarian Investor

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

Thanks Wayne


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## Fugazi

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

I've just been lent one of their DVD sets, watched about the first  hour so far. Things that immediately spring to mind:

_Nothing_ is as easy as this guy is making out (so far anyway), where's the catch?

I have almost no experience trading shares yet, surely it's a bit of an ask that I'm supposed to walk away from my TV after a few hours with a workable/profitable understanding of derivatives of any kind.

Can I trust anything said by someone with that haircut.

The one statement that did catch my interest was this:
The best market to trade in Australia is the US market. You place your orders/stops while the market is closed, and you sleep while the market is open, therefore you are unlikely to be influenced by emotion/reaction.

That actually made sense to me, but is it practical?


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## ryoohki

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

Any feedback? PP deals with CFD's and its leverage? He has courses next weekend but is it worth 3.5k?


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## wayneL

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



ryoohki said:


> Any feedback? PP deals with CFD's and its leverage? He has courses next weekend *but is it worth 3.5k?*



Nope, unless you want to observe marketing and NLP etc at work, but 3.5k is too much when you can observe it in marketing various products every day.


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## Wysiwyg

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



wayneL said:


> Nope, unless you want to observe marketing and NLP etc at work, but 3.5k is too much when you can observe it in marketing various products every day.




wayneL,  NLP......Is that Neuro Linguistic Programming?


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## wayneL

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



Wysiwyg said:


> wayneL,  NLP......Is that Neuro Linguistic Programming?



Yep.


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## ryoohki

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

Anyone had good experiences with PP's cfd trading strategies?


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## wayneL

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

Some people make money playing roulette.


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## vinny

*Platinum Pursuits course - good or bad?*

Hi All,
I just wanted to know if anyone has attended the Platinum Pursuits 3 days course. Is it good vaule for $?


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## wayneL

*Re: Platinum Pursuits course - good or bad?*



vinny said:


> Hi All,
> I just wanted to know if anyone has attended the Platinum Pursuits 3 days course. Is it good vaule for $?



For what you pay, it is very poor value.

Buy "Options as a Strategic Investment" for ~$100. It will teach you far more than PP and let you see if options trading is for you.


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## Timmy

*Re: Platinum Pursuits course - good or bad?*



wayneL said:


> For what you pay, it is very poor value.
> 
> Buy "Options as a Strategic Investment" for ~$100. It will teach you far more than PP and let you see if options trading is for you.




It is easy to assess if it good value for money, request the trading results of the instructors and the graduates, the actual brokerage accounts, audited if possible.  

To save time just do what wayneL said. 

"The New Options Advantage: is also very good, bit old now but the principles don't change.


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## kam75

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

I've dealt with Platinum Pursuits and Daniel Kertcher about 4 years ago and bought his 'writing covered calls program'.  This course, and his other Option Trading Courses which I obtained later through a friend are just regurgitated material being re-packaged and sold for thousands of dollars to the unwary.

But the real dangers lie in the trading strategies he presents, all which proved to be bogus and lost us money.

For anyone out there, expecially the newbies, please, please be careful dealing with any company that promises to teach you how to make money in the stockmarket, for an upfront fee.  There are many others to stay away from that I wish I could name here.

My advice to anyone wanting to learn what it takes to succeed trading the stockmarket is to save your money for trading, and read a handful of books by reputable authors. You may want to start with Reminiscences of a Stock Operator, by Edwin Le Fevre, and How I made 2 Million Dollars in the Stockmarket by the master himself, Nicolas Darvas.

Alternatively, visit Google.com for sharesmadeeasy. A free trader's blog that may just show you what others charge 1000's of dollars for.


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## rexilla99

*Platinum Pursuits - Daniel Kertcher*

Hi,

I was wondering if any members have either been to one of his 3 day seminar on CFD's or even use his CFD strategy where he also has  Put option used as a capital protection?


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## evilslug

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

_Hi,

I was wondering if any members have either been to one of his 3 day seminar on CFD's or even use his CFD strategy where he also has Put option used as a capital protection? _

Yeah anyone got an opinion on this?


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## IFocus

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



evilslug said:


> _Hi,
> 
> I was wondering if any members have either been to one of his 3 day seminar on CFD's or even use his CFD strategy where he also has Put option used as a capital protection? _
> 
> Yeah anyone got an opinion on this?




My opinion is that the seminars are un-believably over priced and after completion you are very unlikely to make consistent profits in the market but you will how ever feel really good after completing the seminar.

Ideally if you want an education in markets find some one who has actually traded full time for 15 plus years

Also do a Google for DK of PP


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## agupta

*Platinum Pursuits*

G'Day Everyone,

I have recently registered for Platinum Pursuits 3 day seminar to learn Options/CFDs/Covered Calls etc. I have never traded shares in my life and was motivated to attend the course after 2 hour marketing seminar by Daniel Kertcher.

Has anybody in this forum attend this course and can share their experience. I have paid AUD 6,990 and it comes with 100% money back guarantee. Is it really worth it? 

I will really appreciate your response as the course starts tomorrow ie 8th Nov 2008.   

Thanks, Anshul


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## mazzatelli1000

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



agupta said:


> G'Day Everyone,
> 
> I have recently registered for Platinum Pursuits 3 day seminar to learn Options/CFDs/Covered Calls etc. I have never traded shares in my life and was motivated to attend the course after 2 hour marketing seminar by Daniel Kertcher.
> 
> Has anybody in this forum attend this course and can share their experience. I have paid AUD 6,990 and it comes with 100% money back guarantee. Is it really worth it?
> 
> I will really appreciate your response as the course starts tomorrow ie 8th Nov 2008.
> 
> Thanks, Anshul




Ask for your money back

The guy is a con. You could buy 3 - 4 books which would provide better content


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## agupta

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



mazzatelli1000 said:


> Ask for your money back
> 
> The guy is a con. You could buy 3 - 4 books which would provide better content




Have you done the course and had a bad experience implementing his strategies? 

Regards, Anshul


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## mazzatelli1000

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



agupta said:


> Have you done the course and had a bad experience implementing his strategies?
> 
> Regards, Anshul




Never done his course 

The returns he states are astronomical and difficult to MAINTAIN on a consistent basis 

if you have read earlier posts particularly of WayneL etc who have traded options for many years now, the general theme is that this course costs too much for what it offers.


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## kam75

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



mazzatelli1000 said:


> Ask for your money back
> 
> The guy is a con. You could buy 3 - 4 books which would provide better content




Indeed you would do much better studying a few books.  Stay away from the spruiker.


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## richAndre

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

I watched the platinum pursuits dvd and listened to daniel kertchers cfd with married puts for downside protection strategy. This strategy seems really great the way he explains it: you have great upside, with downside protection (from additional puts). On the DVD he uses a microsoft trade example. However, the problem is though, the cost of his puts with a 5 month expiration are only around 
5% of the share price, which to me seems rather cheap. Furthermore, the trade was done after an announcement in which the share price dropped substantially which means with the additional volatility the puts should be rather expensive.

So to me the put options should be much more expensive than what there are in the DVD example, which if they are, wouldn't make the strategy all that great because the break even point would be way to high.

Has anybody else watched the DVD and noticed this?

cheers

Andre


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## wayneL

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



richAndre said:


> I watched the platinum pursuits dvd and listened to daniel kertchers cfd with married puts for downside protection strategy. This strategy seems really great the way he explains it: you have great upside, with downside protection (from additional puts). On the DVD he uses a microsoft trade example. However, the problem is though, the cost of his puts with a 5 month expiration are only around
> 5% of the share price, which to me seems rather cheap. Furthermore, the trade was done after an announcement in which the share price dropped substantially which means with the additional volatility the puts should be rather expensive.
> 
> So to me the put options should be much more expensive than what there are in the DVD example, which if they are, wouldn't make the strategy all that great because the break even point would be way to high.
> 
> Has anybody else watched the DVD and noticed this?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Andre




Just noticed your post Andre. 

The CFD + married put idea really shows a lack of understanding of option synthetics. This is understandable from an option neophyte or perhaps an intermediate option trader, but this is unforgiveable from someone charging $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for a course.

Basically, the synthetic relationship is that long stock (or CFD derivative thereof) + put = long call of the same strike and expiry.

Therefore by buying a cfd and a put, you are incurring two sets of commissions and maintaining two separate account, when you only need one commission and one account.

eg 

Long BHP CFD + long $30 March put,

is the same as:

Long $30 Long Call

The only difference is how and when cost of carry is paid for... a minor consideration.

On the subject of Implied Volatility in the DVD, you are dead right to question, and be suspicious of his example, but without seeing the specifics, it's impossible to comment.


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## kam75

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



richAndre said:


> I watched the platinum pursuits dvd and listened to daniel kertchers cfd with married puts for downside protection strategy. This strategy seems really great the way he explains it: you have great upside, with downside protection (from additional puts). On the DVD he uses a microsoft trade example. However, the problem is though, the cost of his puts with a 5 month expiration are only around
> 5% of the share price, which to me seems rather cheap. Furthermore, the trade was done after an announcement in which the share price dropped substantially which means with the additional volatility the puts should be rather expensive.
> 
> So to me the put options should be much more expensive than what there are in the DVD example, which if they are, wouldn't make the strategy all that great because the break even point would be way to high.
> 
> Has anybody else watched the DVD and noticed this?
> 
> cheers
> 
> Andre




I've have all his courses on option trading and writing covered calls.  It's total, and I mean complete rubbish.  For newbies, its downright dangerous. His trading system for options is completely flawed.  It's funny to see how the guy contradicts himself a number of times throughout the DVDs, and at the end questions himself whether or not you really need to buy the long term protective Put.  You will find much more useful information if you buy ANY $39.95 book at Dymmocks.  
cheers


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## ausgate1

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

Guys, dont throw the baby out with the bath water, Ive been trading options since 1992 and have been to many seminars and read many books, most were crap and like most people I lost money, an embarrassing amount of money. I now average 5 - 8% profit per month selling covered calls on the US market. My advice is get educated in writing covered calls, open up a virtual a/c and do a few months of virtual trading before taking the plunge. If a seminar or DVD encourages you to trade and you lose your money then its a scam if you start developing a strategy that replaces your income in a couple of years then its a legend. I learned my strategy through trial and a lot of error.


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## mazzatelli1000

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



ausgate1 said:


> Guys, dont throw the baby out with the bath water, Ive been trading options since 1992 and have been to many seminars and read many books, most were crap and like most people I lost money, an embarrassing amount of money. I now average 5 - 8% profit per month selling covered calls on the US market. My advice is get educated in writing covered calls, open up a virtual a/c and do a few months of virtual trading before taking the plunge. If a seminar or DVD encourages you to trade and you lose your money then its a scam if you start developing a strategy that replaces your income in a couple of years then its a legend. I learned my strategy through trial and a lot of error.




Yes I see derivative trading desks around the world introducing PP to their staff. Hedge Funds should refer to this as an undiscovered gem


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## mazzatelli1000

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

Daniel Kertcher and questionable accreditation

Kertcher's mates and ASIC - Jamie Mcintyre and Bill Stacey

For any future viewers of this thread performing their due diligence


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## wayneL

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



mazzatelli1000 said:


> Daniel Kertcher and questionable accreditation
> 
> Kertcher's mates and ASIC - Jamie Mcintyre and Bill Stacey
> 
> For any future viewers of this thread performing their due diligence




Well you have to give our little ex-welder friend points for outright gall for his offering. Just for gall mind you, not for content. 

Unbelievable.


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## aussiebbs

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

I went to his seminor last night. He is a very smooth speaker, very encouraging. That's the only thing I learned from him. I didn't buy his course. I believe there is no short cut to make so much money. I bought a book from him. If he is that rich, he should give it to me instead. It is a shame to see so many people sign up his course after the seminor. A lot of them even don't know how to use computer properly. You can tell they got brain washed after his speech.


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## kam75

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



aussiebbs said:


> I went to his seminor last night.  I didn't buy his course.




You did well not to become involved with this spruiker.


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## foundation

*Platinum Pursuits*

Hi All,

Went recently to a 2 hour seminar run by Platinum Pursuits Daniel Kertcher outfit and and got talking to a guy there. He showed me some scary stuff about them because he was there with a gripe. He joined them a few years ago without much success after spending thousands on courses.

He showed me a copy of their Members Daily Report from the 8th June where they 'boast' getting a 12.62% return on their portfolio that they teach you compared to the S&P 500 return of 25.09% return, both since January 2009. So he was telling me why would you pay thousands of dollars to learn their 'protection' strategies and so on , where you could just buy the index and do better? And pay a lot less brokerage fees and time. What do others think - is this guy just a loser or is he right?

I then went to their website homepage, and because I know a bit about keywords on webpages and SEO stuff - If you go to their home page and select View..Source.. you see in the keyword tag one of them they quote is 'daniel kertcher scam'. Now usually a company wants traffic and spend lots of time picking the best keyword phrases to attract people to their site. So I am wondering why they would put that in - do they think a lot of people are searching in google for this keyword phrase? Maybe it tells me what they think of themselves - or am i just being paranoid?

Would apprecaiate anybody else's comments or experiences before I spend more time looking into them. They also changed their product range from Platinum Pursuits to, TradeAbility, and TradeAbility Pro, and tradingseminars.com.au. That also scares me why they change. What was wrong with their original name because it has been around for years hasn't it?

Anybody recommend anybody else I can get good education of derivatives trading.

Cheers
Margaret


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## DB008

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*



agupta said:


> G'Day Everyone,
> 
> I have recently registered for Platinum Pursuits 3 day seminar to learn Options/CFDs/Covered Calls etc.* I have never traded shares in my life* and was motivated to attend the course after 2 hour marketing seminar by Daniel Kertcher.
> 
> Has anybody in this forum attend this course and can share their experience. *I have paid AUD 6,990 and it comes with 100% money back guarantee. Is it really worth it? *
> 
> I will really appreciate your response as the course starts tomorrow ie 8th Nov 2008.
> 
> Thanks, Anshul




Are you crazy?!? Please read above posts! ADMIN, please close/shut down this thread. Obvious that trolls are coming in from "Ketcher" affiliates. $6990 for a course, WTF?!?  AMWAY advertising will be next.


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## jezzymoo

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

- Daniel is a GREAT salesman...

That is all.


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## Coach B

*Re: Platinum Pursuits*

I have heard him speak as well and he has his patter down pretty well.

There are a number of give aways as to the lack of depth of knowledge.

He is inconsistent in how his CFD program works. eg Early in the presentation he is proposing puts as the key risk management tool and then 20 ominutes later he is recommending guaranteed stop loss..WTF!

Then he says he trades purely on line and then he says when you are talking to your broker to place the trade? 

Also conveniently forgets to include any discussion about margin or margin calls....

Nice guy.....but.


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## Gillc10

*Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

Hi All,

My first post here and I'm writing to ask for advice on platinum pursuits.

My family has fallen hook line and sinker for this latest "wonder kid" get rich quick scheme, promising up a minimum of 5% per month return. 

I have read the reports on here and they have further confirmed my thinking that this strategy will not work in the long term and this Kertcher guys strategy is no where near as impressive as his sales ability. 

My numerous protests have been met with angry denial by my family who keep coming back to unimpressive figures like:

- In the last 6months they have made 120% annualised equivalent return!! 
- My friend has been following his strategy and has made 50 winning trades in the last 12 months!!

I have no love for a company that professes its strategy is brilliant because it worked over 6-12months in a market that has only gone up. 

PPs latest genius strategy i have been told involves some sort of leveraged covered calls strategy using guaranteed stop losses. Apparently ONLY PPs students have access to a broker who will allow the strategy.

Can anyone help explain to me:
- why this strategy or others arn't anywhere near as good as promised
- What the risks are (PP have my family convinced that these strategies guarantee BIG upside with 0 risk due to guaranteed stops.. this to me is inherently impossible)
- Any advice as to how to approach my family. They have worked for many years to achieve their very modest wealth and I don't want them squandering it on a strategy pushed by some fool with a stupid haircut. 

Please help! they are insisting I attend this course!


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## sinner

*Re: Family addicted to schemes / spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

Seriously, we don't mind helping out but don't you feel in the slightest bit rediculous asking to be spoonfed information which is literally on the same page with the same title?

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21516


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## skc

*Re: Family addicted to schemes / spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Gillc10 said:


> - Any advice as to how to approach my family. They have worked for many years to achieve their very modest wealth and I don't want them squandering it on a strategy pushed by some fool with a stupid haircut.




That is a tough one.

Aside from showing them the information on this site, probably the best is to hear from people who's lost money using the method. May be PM some of those who posted as unsatisfied customers?

Good luck.


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## Ruby

*Re: Family addicted to schemes / spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

Hi Gill,

You don't say who you mean by 'family', so I am assuming parents.

Would it help if you showed them some of the things that have been written on this forum about PP and other organisations like it?   There are many of them - they proliferate on the Gold Coast like wire coat hangers in the cupboard.  There *are *good courses taught by honest people, but you have to look for them and be very discerning.

Daniel Kertcher has been around for a long time - more than 10 years I think.   If his strategies are so good why does he not just use them himself and make millions of dollars that way?   It would be a lot less labour intensive for him!  The answer is, of course, that it is much more lucrative for him to sell his course to unsuspecting people desperate to make some quick and easy money.  I don't know how much his course costs, but it's not hard to do some rough calculations - 50 people in a room for a weekend @ $5,000 a head = $250,000.   Now that's good money!!!

I have been a trader for quite a few years.  I have also worked for financial services companies, so I have met a lot of people who trade.   Most of them lose money.  Many of them become trading course 'junkies' going from this course to that, because the next one holds the 'secret' to success.  The people who take their money don't care.

If your parents are absolutely determined to proceed, perhaps you could achieve more by changing your tactics.  Say you will support them - study the course material with them - and in return ask them to be a bit more circumspect and objective and to take their time and do a lot more research before they rush into investing further money.  Don't know - it might help if you appear to be 'for' them rather than 'against' them.


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## sails

*Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Gillc10 said:


> ...PPs latest genius strategy i have been told involves some sort of leveraged covered calls strategy using guaranteed stop losses. Apparently ONLY PPs students have access to a broker who will allow the strategy.




This is so typical of these types of courses.  The fact that they you need to have a "special" broker adds to the exclusiveness of this being something only known to a select group.  I don't know of too many brokers that would touch it, so there would have to be good commissions in it for the broker, I would imagine.

Search ASF for "covered calls" as this type of strategy has been discussed many times.  Whether stops are "guaranteed" by the use of CFDs or by the purchase of puts when using shares, the principles remain somewhat similar.

However, I suspect that it will be difficult to change your family's views until they start losing money.  The trap is that it is possible to make a little money using these types of covered call or naked put strategies, however, one loss can easily wipe out months of gains.  

I have heard it aptly descriped as "Eat like a bird, **** like an elephant"...

I speak from my own experience.  Went to a seminar and became excited with covered calls.  Had to use a "special" broker whom we found out later charged excessive "boutique" type of brokerage and fees.  Still, we were so inspired by the ability to earn exceptionally good money especially with the added bonus of margin lending...  And we met others who were doing this and one guy had sold all his rental properties and put the money into covered calls.  So we wasted no time in getting this up and running.

Although, the first sold call made a few cents of profit, the underlying shares took a spectatular dive and we were losing thousands each passing day.  Protective puts had been purchased, however they were about a 15% lower, so they really didn't do a lot to help. 

Needless to say, it was a valuable lesson. But if your family are hell bent on doing this, I doubt that you will be able to stop them.  Can only hope they don't lose too much when the losses will most likely catch up with them.



> Can anyone help explain to me:
> - why this strategy or others arn't anywhere near as good as promised
> - What the risks are (PP have my family convinced that these strategies guarantee BIG upside with 0 risk due to guaranteed stops.. this to me is inherently impossible)
> - Any advice as to how to approach my family. They have worked for many years to achieve their very modest wealth and I don't want them squandering it on a strategy pushed by some fool with a stupid haircut.
> 
> Please help! they are insisting I attend this course!




Premiums are usually quite small compared to losses that can strike quite quickly - that's one of the biggest issues.  One significant loss can wipe out months of gains rapidly.

There can't be zero risk with guaranteed stops.  I believe there is a purchase cost to them as the broker would most likely be using put options to hedge himself.  There will be loss on the guaranteed loss premium or the put premium from time decay.  The other larger area of loss is the distance between the guaranteed stop and the purchase price of the stock.

For example using a $10 stock.  Lets say you get 20c premium on a sold call slightly OTM.  You buy the stock at $10 and guaranteed stop is at $9.  There will be some cost to this guranteed stop.  But what if the market goes below $9 and stays below for some time.  Now you have a a $1 loss (plus cost of on going guaranteed stops which is now likely to be higher as the $9 or you make the decision to put the guaranteed stop lower as it should be cheaper to purchase.  Whichever way, the small premiums will have trouble repaying losses.

And don't forget that when purchasing CFDs, one is liable to pay interest for any trade held overnight.  These rates are usually a set some percentage points above the risk free rate.  It is another cost to consider.

And then if the market suddenly shoots back up after being down for a while, future profits are then often capped due to the sold call now being much lower.  I found it to be a total mugs game unless one could accurately predict market movements.

I have never used the strategy with CFDs but can't see that it would be much different than using shares and a margin loan.  I understand both products well.

Hope this helps - although it's just my 

PS: this thread may be useful: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21088
and it has a link to this article on ASIC warnings on CFDs: http://www.smh.com.au/business/beware-of-cfds-warns-asic-20101123-185nr.html


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## professor_frink

*Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Gillc10 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My first post here and I'm writing to ask for advice on platinum pursuits.
> 
> My family has fallen hook line and sinker for this latest "wonder kid" get rich quick scheme, promising up a minimum of 5% per month return.
> 
> I have read the reports on here and they have further confirmed my thinking that this strategy will not work in the long term and this Kertcher guys strategy is no where near as impressive as his sales ability.
> 
> My numerous protests have been met with angry denial by my family who keep coming back to unimpressive figures like:
> 
> - In the last 6months they have made 120% annualised equivalent return!!
> - My friend has been following his strategy and has made 50 winning trades in the last 12 months!!
> 
> I have no love for a company that professes its strategy is brilliant because it worked over 6-12months in a market that has only gone up.
> 
> PPs latest genius strategy i have been told involves some sort of leveraged covered calls strategy using guaranteed stop losses. Apparently ONLY PPs students have access to a broker who will allow the strategy.
> 
> Can anyone help explain to me:
> - why this strategy or others arn't anywhere near as good as promised
> - What the risks are (PP have my family convinced that these strategies guarantee BIG upside with 0 risk due to guaranteed stops.. this to me is inherently impossible)
> - Any advice as to how to approach my family. They have worked for many years to achieve their very modest wealth and I don't want them squandering it on a strategy pushed by some fool with a stupid haircut.
> 
> Please help! they are insisting I attend this course!




based on my limited experience with people I know who have signed up for schemes promising the world, there really isn't much you can do to bring them back to reality. Once someone's brain starts thinking only about how much money they'll make, then it's pretty well impossible to talk sense into them.

Best case IMO is they get easily discouraged when it turns out to be a lot of work for minimal reward and walk away before any real damage is done.

Try and refrain from the "I told you so" speech if it turns out to be a fizzer, it won't go over well with someone that has just lost a few thousand dollars.


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## nunthewiser

*Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

Send em my way 

Have i got a deal for them!


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## Agentm

*Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



nunthewiser said:


> Send em my way
> 
> Have i got a deal for them!




i agree

totally happy to get them better returns than platinum, i can give them gold plated returns.. and in a far shorter time frame..

i guarantee i can empty their accounts in a heartbeat..


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## skc

*Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



sails said:


> There can't be zero risk with guaranteed stops.  I believe there is a purchase cost to them as the broker would most likely be using put options to hedge himself.  There will be loss on the guaranteed loss premium or the put premium from time decay.  The other larger area of loss is the distance between the guaranteed stop and the purchase price of the stock.
> 
> For example using a $10 stock.  Lets say you get 20c premium on a sold call slightly OTM.  You buy the stock at $10 and guaranteed stop is at $9.  There will be some cost to this guranteed stop.  But what if the market goes below $9 and stays below for some time.  Now you have a a $1 loss (plus cost of on going guaranteed stops which is now likely to be higher as the $9 or you make the decision to put the guaranteed stop lower as it should be cheaper to purchase.  Whichever way, the small premiums will have trouble repaying losses.
> 
> And don't forget that when purchasing CFDs, one is liable to pay interest for any trade held overnight.  These rates are usually a set some percentage points above the risk free rate.  It is another cost to consider.
> 
> And then if the market suddenly shoots back up after being down for a while, future profits are then often capped due to the sold call now being much lower.  I found it to be a total mugs game unless one could accurately predict market movements.
> 
> I have never used the strategy with CFDs but can't see that it would be much different than using shares and a margin loan.  I understand both products well.
> 
> Hope this helps - although it's just my




Guaranteed stops if touched are executed and the position will be closed. So they are much worse than protective puts.



sails said:


> I have heard it aptly descriped as "Eat like a bird, **** like an elephant"...




"Picking up pennies in front of steam roller" is always a good one.
"Reverse lottery" is another good description.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



nunthewiser said:


> Send em my way
> 
> Have i got a deal for them!




Agree with nun mate.

Your family need a dream. And they have it.

When nun is finished can I have a few moments with them.

I have found a way to turn moist air in to water, purely by using a dinner plate.

I need some seed money to get it going.

ps

It also boils eggs.

gg


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## 1337trader

*Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

You can't stop em, they're hooked.

Do your VERY BEST to convince them to trade with a small account first. It will be hard, because selling calls seems like easy money, they will be tempted to do their whole account. When they lose big, hopefully they will learn and wake up from their fantasy.


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## matty77

*Re: Family addicted to scheme /spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

hey mate, I feel for you, I really do! 

A very close relative had been using one of these systems for about the last 2 years, I think in the end they lost about $25,000 in $ doing the trades, and spent the same amount on the seminars and stuff, so all up probably around $50k It took me 2 YEARS TO CONVINCE THEM to stop doing it, as someone else suggested you should offer to learn the system with them, then when it all starts to turn to crap make sure you push hard for them to get out! 

good luck, I know how frustrating it can be to see people piss away hard earned cash.


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## Gunslinger

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

I know little about the details of the strategy proposed by PP and others can comment on it far better than I but I would ask them how much they stand to lose in a single trade / day if it goes against them.
If possible illustrate to them by examples of current (today's) trades.
e.g. BHP lost $0.93 (1.97%) today. what would their situation have looked like if they'd been in that trade today?
If it's highly leveraged they would be looking at a lot larger loss.
Another question would be what are they paying in interest and how will that eat away at their profits if they're in a long running trade.

IMO, until you really know what you're doing, you should only invest what you can afford to lose.

HTH,
JB


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## matty77

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

You can suggest any logic you like but it wont work after being brain washed for a few hours (days) and hyped up about making money. Wait until they go to a seminar in Fiji, then you are in real trouble.


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## sails

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



skc said:


> ...
> "Picking up pennies in front of steam roller" is always a good one.
> "Reverse lottery" is another good description.




Yes, there are a few good descriptions around that show the stupidity of these systems in the long run....



Gunslinger said:


> ...IMO, until you really know what you're doing, you should only invest what you can afford to lose....




I'm not sure that the seminar "educators" would talk much about losses.  In my own experience with these types of seminars, they gloss over risk of mention of losses with a glib, "you've got your stop loss".  In real life it isn't quite that easy and so you go into it without a care in the world and very little understanding of the risks involved.  IMO, many of those taking on these types of trades probably have no idea how much they are risking and have a false security that they can't lose much.

Once I learned about options and the basics of reading risk graphs, it puts it all into a whole different perspective...


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## Garpal Gumnut

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

They may be interested in this, if they have anything left over to spend after their present foray in to limp lessons in getting poor quickly.


https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22025&p=617063#post617063

gg


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## Gillc10

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

Thanks a lot for the replies everyone.

I posted on this forum because I have seen some excellent commentary around certain strategies here. 

Its been a really tough time for me recently. I have put forward the below which has been met with angry denial

1. Have found many reports on the internet (forums) of unhappy PP customers who have lost money. 

Response: Well its usually the disgruntled ones that post on the internet.

2. If this guy was so good and could make 100% p/a guaranteed he would be the head of a multibillion dollar hedge fund and wouldn't be selling courses

Response: He's going to be big. XYZ broker have been wanting to do business with him for a long time and now finally have an agreement. Oh and all these people I've met through these courses have been making money some of who include finance professionals and other. 

3. It is impossible to have great upside with no downside risk 

Response: He has state of the art never been seen before risk management strategies!

4. I don't like this guy he seems like a con artist. I watched one of his 1hr online presentations where he uses Warren Buffet's quote "derivatives are weapons of mass destruction" and flips it saying Warren means there you can make BIG money off derivatives. I mean what the hell? the guy is either stupid or he's a sleazy snake oil salesman. I'm going with the latter.

Response: Oh thats just marketing spin. I get it I use the same if I am to sell something.

I'm banging my head against a wall here. But I can see how so many people would be taken in with the old "If I could teach you a way to retire trading options, only working 2 hours a week.. is that something you'd be interested in??" 

I'm worried that, with most things market related, it can take a few years before the deficiencies of a strategy can come to light. 

Problem is that I'm quite young (26) and I'm seen to them as inexperienced. I have the sense to know that this thing stinks gained from majoring in finance at university and working as a junior investment banker (M&A not trading), but I don't have the knowledge of options and trading to really dissect something and tear it apart. 
My family (yes parents) won't even listen to me until I attend the PP course. I was hoping to avoid this as I think even then they are too sold on the dream to listen.

So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out $4k and try to expose this thing for what it is. Hey I might even learn something. Hopefully I can come back and get some insight into my findings!


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## Gillc10

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> They may be interested in this, if they have anything left over to spend after their present foray in to limp lessons in getting poor quickly.
> 
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22025&p=617063#post617063
> 
> gg




HAHA sorry they have already done the whole Anthony Robbins thing! =(


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## Ruby

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Gillc10 said:


> Problem is that I'm quite young (26) and I'm seen to them as inexperienced. I have the sense to know that this thing stinks gained from majoring in finance at university and working as a junior investment banker (M&A not trading), but I don't have the knowledge of options and trading to really dissect something and tear it apart.
> My family (yes parents) won't even listen to me until I attend the PP course. I was hoping to avoid this as I think even then they are too sold on the dream to listen.
> 
> So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out $4k and try to expose this thing for what it is. Hey I might even learn something. Hopefully I can come back and get some insight into my findings!




Doing the course with them, as a last resort, might be a good idea.  It would give you more leverage with your parents at a later date if *you *know what *they *are talking about, and they cannot accuse *you *of not knowing what *you *are saying.

You could arm yourself with a lot of sticky questions to ask Kertcher, and it may even help you in your own career to know first hand what fraudulent crap is being peddled by these people and others like them.   

Once you have proof of what is going on you could even lodge a complaint with ASIC.   They will not move unless a complaint is made.

If you want to learn something about options beforehand, the ASX website has some good information - and it's free!   Good luck!


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## luke256

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Gillc10 said:


> So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out $4k and try to expose this thing for what it is. Hey I might even learn something. Hopefully I can come back and get some insight into my findings!




If your family insist you go to let them pay the 4k. If your family are going anyway wouldn't it be better if you used the 4k for a different course. That way you could read the materials from PP and they could learn form the course material you got.

I never understood why people go in groups to these courses and each individually pay a fee. It would be better for each person in the family to buy a different course and share the books and dvds between each other.


----------



## matty77

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

Like I said, no point in arguing the point with them, they are convinced and you cant change that.... go to the course, keep your eyes and ears open, that will give you a better understanding of how these fraudsters work - it really is quiet amazing how smooth the talk, and how hyped up they can get you, just dont get sucked in like your parents did. I share your frustration, ive seen it all before, and sometimes people just have to have a valuable lesson, lets hope it doesnt wipe them out!


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## builder2818

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

Kiss your inheritance good bye......platinum Pursuits and their brokers are going to get it before you do.

Do you have any brothers and sisters that can team up with you to put an end to this rubbish?


----------



## Ruby

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Gillc10 said:


> 2. If this guy was so good and could make 100% p/a guaranteed he would be the head of a multibillion dollar hedge fund and wouldn't be selling courses
> 
> Response: He's going to be big.* XYZ broker have been wanting to do business with him for a long time *and now finally have an agreement. Oh and all these people I've met through these courses have been making money some of who include finance professionals and other.




I wonder if your parents have the mistaken belief that all brokers are honest, and that somehow, because a broker is connected, it lends professional credibility to the scheme.   Tell them there are brokers who should be in jail for the way they fleece their clients - legally!  I have proof - proof of my own and proof provided me by other people.   The broker concerned is probably salivating at the thought of all the easy money he is about to make.


----------



## Gunslinger

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*

Did you read this?


sinner said:


> Seriously, we don't mind helping out but don't you feel in the slightest bit rediculous asking to be spoonfed information which is literally on the same page with the same title?
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21516




This I think is a very valuable thread as it explains very well the details of the strategy.
Get them to have a read of at least the OP's thoughts since he's gone through the actual course.
Given this, are they in a position to make decent money out of it and do they have the willpower to follow the rules effectively to make it successfull?

Also,


Gillc10 said:


> Thanks a lot for the replies everyone.
> ...So it looks like I'm going to have to fork out $4k and try to expose this thing for what it is. ...



I personally wouldnt bother as they already see you as being negative and would be expecting you to come out of it espousing the wonders and recanting your earlier doubts. When/if you don't, they'll just put it down as you going in with a closed and negative frame of mind just to prove them wrong.



Good luck either way.
JB


----------



## Gillc10

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Gunslinger said:


> Did you read this?
> 
> 
> This I think is a very valuable thread as it explains very well the details of the strategy.
> Get them to have a read of at least the OP's thoughts since he's gone through the actual course.
> Given this, are they in a position to make decent money out of it and do they have the willpower to follow the rules effectively to make it successfull?




Yes read this. Was good information. I am compiling a report for them with that information. Also trying to better present the risks of using covered calls. I'll get hold of the training materials to work out how their CFD covered call strategy works.

My honest opinion is they should not be trading derivatives. They are great people who have their own strengths.. but they can't seem to grasp the fundamentals derivative trading so they goto these courses because the presenters make things simple. 



Gunslinger said:


> I personally wouldnt bother as they already see you as being negative and would be expecting you to come out of it espousing the wonders and recanting your earlier doubts. When/if you don't, they'll just put it down as you going in with a closed and negative frame of mind just to prove them wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck either way.
> JB




I think your very right.. can definitely see them saying I'm not open minded.. They are already saying i'm too closed minded for dismissing this thing without going to the course


----------



## Gillc10

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Ruby said:


> Doing the course with them, as a last resort, might be a good idea.  It would give you more leverage with your parents at a later date if *you *know what *they *are talking about, and they cannot accuse *you *of not knowing what *you *are saying.
> 
> You could arm yourself with a lot of sticky questions to ask Kertcher, and it may even help you in your own career to know first hand what fraudulent crap is being peddled by these people and others like them.
> 
> Once you have proof of what is going on you could even lodge a complaint with ASIC.   They will not move unless a complaint is made.
> 
> If you want to learn something about options beforehand, the ASX website has some good information - and it's free!   Good luck!




Ruby, appreciate all the advice. Has given me a lot to think about! 

I can't see ASIC stepping in.. as long as they are qualified (my understanding is its not difficult at all to achieve this) and provide the necessary disclaimers (which as far as I can see they are) then its hard to say what they are doing is blatantly fraudulent.


----------



## Ruby

*Re: Family addicted to schemes/spruikers - This time Platinum Pursuits*



Gillc10 said:


> I can't see ASIC stepping in.. as long as they are qualified (my understanding is its not difficult at all to achieve this) and provide the necessary disclaimers (which as far as I can see they are) then its hard to say what they are doing is blatantly fraudulent.




You are correct, unfortunately.   ASIC is a bit of a paper tiger and these people - along with all their crooked friends on the GC - know it.   They just drive their Astin Martins and thumb their noses at us!


----------

