# Show Saudi rape victim compassion: Clark



## Happy (23 November 2007)

> From AAP, 23 Nov. 07
> 
> SHOW SAUDI RAPE VICTIM COMPASSION: CLARK
> 
> ...





No wander that some in influential positions talked about uncovered meat.


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## 2020hindsight (23 November 2007)

Happy said:


> No wander that some in influential positions talked about uncovered meat.




Happy
I think we've moved on (in Australia at least) from those days 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7189&highlight=mufti


> "Extend [our] hand to you, you extend [your] hand to us.
> "Give us a fair go, we'll give you a fair go and that's what we want."




but as far as the injustice to the lady in that article is concerned - I couldn't agree more - Sharia law leaves "Draconian" in it's dust. 


> Under Saudi Arabia's strict interpretation of Islamic Sharia law, women are not allowed in public in the company of men other than relatives.


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## Flying Fish (23 November 2007)

You can not interfer with another countries culture. Leave it be.


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## Julia (23 November 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> You can not interfer with another countries culture. Leave it be.




I actually agree with Flying Fish here, despite how obnoxious and thoroughly uncivilised the Saudi law appears to us.

If George Bush hadn't decided it was God's Will (his God, that is) that the Middle East should have democracy (no mention of oil of course) we wouldn't be in the godawful mess we are today in that region.

I don't think we'd take too kindly to someone from Saudi Arabia telling us how we should run our country.

When Helen Clark has cleaned up some of the horrific child abuse in New Zealand, then she will be perhaps in a position to be telling other countries how to manage their citizens.


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## Wysiwyg (23 November 2007)

With thought for the woman victim, it shows us the differences in freedom around the world.Australian whitey history is short but we (Australians) certainly have one of the freest? societies on this planet.

Just shows that being born on a particular plot of land can make a lot of difference to life experiences.


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## Whiskers (23 November 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> You can not interfer with another countries culture. Leave it be.




I have to disagree there FF. 

Culture is just a behavioural pattern based on certain beliefs. Predjuice and racism are 'culture' on an individual level, domestic violence is a 'culture' on a family level and this is male choavinist, dictatorship culture in the quise of religion on a national scale. Just because they have done it for centuries doesn't make it right or tabo to change. 

This is all about power and control for the select few... so called royalty. These are the last pockets of male choavanistic dictators trying to maintain there control in an age where most of the world has developed to a higher level of civilisation. 

In the same way people often see rape as a sexual thing, instead of a power thing... the sex act is the effect of the power and control culture... this is the oppression of women in particular as an instrument of the ruling family's power and control. If the rest of the world chooses not to recognise their so called 'culture' eventually they will be forced to give it up just like apartheid in South Africa and equal rights for women and blacks in the west.

These days we have the United Nations and international conventions about human rights.


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## 2020hindsight (23 November 2007)

Whiskers said:


> If the rest of the world chooses not to recognise their so called 'culture' eventually they will be forced to give it up just like apartheid in South Africa and equal rights for women and blacks in the west.
> 
> These days we have the United Nations and international conventions about human rights.




UN also talking about the Hindu ritual of sati 


http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2006/061122_UNIFEM.doc.htm


> Violence against women knows no boundaries, it knows no territory, no wealth level and it really occurs everywhere, in every country in the world today,” said Ms. Heyzer, in response to a reporter’s question about violence against women in the United States.  While clarifying that UNIFEM’s mandate focuses on developing countries, Ms. Heyzer said the agency adhered to the standards and human rights norms of the United Nations as it looked at occurrences of gender-based violence around the world.
> 
> In response to a reporter’s question about why the Indian law making the Hindu ritual of sati illegal was not being enforced, Ms. Heyzer said monitoring and accountability systems were vital to making the best laws and policies work, especially at the local level.  *Sati is a ritual in which a woman immolates herself upon her husband’s death*.






			
				 Wysiwyg said:
			
		

> Just shows that being born on a particular plot of land can make a lot of difference to life experiences.



spot on - especially for the girls around here


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## numbercruncher (23 November 2007)

Julia said:


> When Helen Clark has cleaned up some of the horrific child abuse in New Zealand, then she will be perhaps in a position to be telling other countries how to manage their citizens.




Rather big difference thou Julia is that NZ child abuse isnt government sanctioned, where as whipping this rape victim is government sanctioned ....

Least Clark has the balls to speak out against this horror, all the other scardy cats (inconvieniently) addicted to Saudi oil could learn something.


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## Julia (24 November 2007)

numbercruncher said:


> Rather big difference thou Julia is that NZ child abuse isnt government sanctioned, where as whipping this rape victim is government sanctioned ....




Yes, you're right, Numbercruncher.  I guess I just feel more concerned for little children who are entirely defenceless than I do for adult women who as far as I know could live somewhere other than Saudi Arabia.


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## Happy (27 November 2007)

> From ABC, 27 Nov. 07
> 
> SAUDI FM CRITICISES RAPE LASH JUDGEMENT
> 
> ...




Hard to imagine, that they will have to change their law eventually.

Hope that meat preparation for consumption will not have to be done using barbaric slaughter, but this is another story.


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## Happy (29 November 2007)

> From ABC, 29 Nov. 07
> 
> SAUDI JUDGES INSULTED ME, GANG RAPE VICTIM SAYS
> 
> ...





In the shadow of this story I wander, how long does it take to start thinking like an Aussie, for all the people who come here and become permanent residents or citizens.

I also wander how many never change their way of thinking and behaving.


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## kitehigh (29 November 2007)

Julia said:


> Yes, you're right, Numbercruncher. I guess I just feel more concerned for little children who are entirely defenceless than I do for adult women who as far as I know could live somewhere other than Saudi Arabia.




You see Julia this is where you don't know.  Local woman in Saudi Arabia cannot just leave the country.  If she is married and she is travelling alone she must have written permission from her husband to conduct that travel.  If she isn't married than it is her father who can give her permission to travel.  Local woman have few rights and basically live and  die according to the males of the house that they live under.  So for them to just decide that they will leave Saudi and go live in another country is total fantasy.


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## 2020hindsight (29 November 2007)

Julia said:


> than I do for adult women who as far as I know could live somewhere other than Saudi Arabia.



mmm I also (totally) disagree Julia.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Without_My_Daughter
good movie this one...  



> plot :- After many years of marriage to an Iranian doctor named Moody (Alfred Molina), Betty (Sally Field) is convinced by him to visit his family in Tehran for the first time. Although she has a lot of trepidation about traveling to the Middle East, her fear of violence is overcome by sympathy for her husband, who misses his family. After Moody swears on the Koran that everything will be fine, Betty agrees to go. The happy couple set out with their young daughter, Mahtob, on a planned two week family vacation.
> 
> Immediately upon arrival, Betty is forced to wear the traditional black veil, and is nearly arrested for inadvertently exposing some of her hair. Contrary to everything Betty had previously been led to believe, her husband's family turn out to be fanatically devout and conservative Muslims, who are very unhappy with the prospect of an American in-law. Towards the end of their scheduled holiday, her husband reveals that he has been fired from his job in the United States and that he has decided the family will stay in Iran. Suddenly, she sees a completely different side of him. When she objects to staying, he beats her and takes her credit cards, money and identification. She soon realizes that she and her daughter had became prisoners in her sister-in-law's home. She manages to call her own mother in the U.S. who provides her with an Embassy contact, before her husband cuts off her access to the telephone.
> 
> ...


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## Julia (29 November 2007)

Well, I wonder how it is that several times in recent years I have heard both Saudi and Iranian women being interviewed on Radio National who have left their home countries to pursue an education in the USA.

I'm not contradicting what you are saying necessarily but should we therefore assume that the women I have heard have had the blessing of their "superior male"?


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## disarray (29 November 2007)

Flying Fish said:


> You can not interfer with another countries culture. Leave it be.




yeah you can, its called globalisation. saudi arabia wants access to western money and technology and systems so we get to call them out when they behave like psychos. 

only problem is we don't because we need their oil.


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## kitehigh (30 November 2007)

Julia said:


> Well, I wonder how it is that several times in recent years I have heard both Saudi and Iranian women being interviewed on Radio National who have left their home countries to pursue an education in the USA.
> 
> I'm not contradicting what you are saying necessarily but should we therefore assume that the women I have heard have had the blessing of their "superior male"?




I am guessing that most of these woman would have come from well off families and been fortunate enough to be allowed to study overseas.  Some of them probably have chosen to go against their family and remain overseas.

If you are interested in this topic you should read "Princess" .
http://www.amazon.com/Princess-Story-Behind-Saudi-Arabia/dp/0967673747

Its a good read and will give you a much better understanding of the situation for woman in Saudi. 
I lived and work in Saudi Arabia and continue to work in the middle east so I have some first hand experiance on the going ons in these countries.  Even in the UAE (which is suppose to be one of the more liberal muslim countries) a woman needs permission from her husband to work, get a drivers license etc.
My wife was not impressed to say the least, especially when they put down on her drivers license "Occupation = House wife".


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## YOUNG_TRADER (30 November 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> With thought for the woman victim, it shows us the differences in freedom around the world.Australian whitey history is short but we (Australians) certainly have one of the freest? societies on this planet.
> 
> Just shows that being born on a particular plot of land can make a lot of difference to life experiences.




LOL are you ****ing serious?

I'm no activist or humanitarian, hell I just read this thread because I've seen it for ages and never bothered,

But "Australian whitey history is short but we (Australians) certainly have one of the freest? societies on this planet." Tell that to the aborignies mate

Same goes for your "Just shows that being born on a particular plot of land can make a lot of difference to life experiences", I don't care where your born in Australia, if your aboriginal well I think most would admit your at a bit of a disadvantage


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## Wysiwyg (30 November 2007)

YOUNG_TRADER said:


> LOL are you ****ing serious?




Your bitterness toward Aboriginals is understandable and i hope you find a resolution to your problem.

If you have  unfair treatment cases toward Aboriginals then you should report them to the authorities.


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## YOUNG_TRADER (30 November 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> Your bitterness toward Aboriginals is understandable and i hope you find a resolution to your problem.
> 
> If you have  unfair treatment cases toward Aboriginals then you should report them to the authorities.




lol, you have completely misunderstood me,

I am not bitter towards the aboriginals, why on earth would I be?

You made a statement how free and blessed we are, I just pointed out that not all "AUSTRALIANS" have it as good as you say,

Also wtf does  







Wysiwyg said:


> Your bitterness toward Aboriginals is understandable



 mean? 



Wysiwyg said:


> If you have  unfair treatment cases toward Aboriginals then you should report them to the authorities.




Right better go report the Australian Govt then :


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## 2020hindsight (30 November 2007)

:topic  Speaking of Aus being free, or one of the free-est etc.
my mate Philippino was just saying that he and his wife both commented to each other that , despite all the rhetoric and namecalling - Aus is one of the few countries hey know where elections are peaceful.    Back home he says, they call an election, and you start counting murder victims from then to the election.   Heck even Italy, Spain etc, the polics tends to be really polarised etc .  
And then there's the corruption which is much harder to discover and uncover in many of these countries than here.   (not that we don't have any lol)

And of course Aussie women of all religions hopefully (?) have access to the police and/or courts and/or sensible law if they want to.   Apart from the police and DoCS being overloaded, of course.   

As for rape victims in Aus, I think (maybe someone can correct me) that women are being allowed to give evidence in camera in some cases, without having to face their attacker, to avoid the trauma of reliving the event etc.

btw, here's Kipling on the subject (written in a war setting)  - not suggesting he was writing about this case - and I'm not promoting capital punishment - just the penalty to the raper in this case was a bit more severe, and the relative penalty , raperr to rapee was a bit more dramatic than a factor of 2 or 4 ( whatever) in the case underdiscussion in Saudi.   

I understand incidentally that the men did score jail sentences ( I think I heard 2 or 3 years). 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=85547&highlight=kipling#post85547


> RAPED AND REVENGED  (an epitaph written in some wartime situation , who knows where)
> Rudyard Kipling
> 
> One used and butchered me: another spied
> ...


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## Sean K (30 November 2007)

This is one of the more ludicrous things I've heard religion do.



> *'Teddy' teacher jailed for 15 days in Sudan*
> Friday Nov 30 05:34 AEDT
> 
> A British teacher accused of insulting Muslims after her class called a teddy bear Mohammad was found guilty and jailed for 15 days, a defence lawyer said.
> ...



It's so rediculous, you just have to laugh. Except this person is actually going to a real jail, for allowing a Teddy to be named after the Schitzophrenic Mohammad.


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## 2020hindsight (30 November 2007)

howdy kennas - 
lol - I saw that - how ridiculous.  

Got a feeling after this she ain't gonna complain about the deportation 

No wonder comedians in these countries go broke. 
Plenty of material, just none of the locals can see the funny  side.


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## Julia (30 November 2007)

kitehigh said:


> I am guessing that most of these woman would have come from well off families and been fortunate enough to be allowed to study overseas.  Some of them probably have chosen to go against their family and remain overseas.
> 
> If you are interested in this topic you should read "Princess" .
> http://www.amazon.com/Princess-Story-Behind-Saudi-Arabia/dp/0967673747
> ...




Thanks for that, Kitehigh.  I appreciate your input.  What would happen, e.g. to a woman who never married (does that happen?) whose father died and who had no brothers?  To whom would she have to defer?

Does your wife have to observe the covering up rules which apply to the Muslim women?


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## numbercruncher (30 November 2007)

kennas said:


> This is one of the more ludicrous things I've heard religion do.
> 
> 
> It's so rediculous, you just have to laugh. Except this person is actually going to a real jail, for allowing a Teddy to be named after the Schitzophrenic Mohammad.




Yes it utter madness, I cant understand for the life of me why Westerners go vist such countries let alone choose to work in them.

If you starve these places of Western workers they will soon come begging and changing laws im sure ..


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## 2020hindsight (30 November 2007)

Julia said:


> What would happen, e.g. to a woman who never married (does that happen?) whose father died and who had no brothers?  To whom would she have to defer?



julia, there was a doco on Afghanistan recently - the same would apply of course for Iraq ......

A widow whose husband was killed by allied bombing (just going about his business) with several daughters - trying to etch out a living - spends all days crouched in the snow begging to passers-by for money for food 

face completely covered of course, (burqa), - they asked her to lift her face mask in the privacy of her own home, and she reluctantly agreed - revealing a face that life and society (and war) had treated very cruelly - 

She spends all day squatting at a corner in the snow because she doesn't have the strength to stand ...

you got the impression she wouldn't last another winter.  



> In some Islamic sub-cultures, women choose to wear the niqab, an all-encompassing garment intended to conceal every part of the body, sometimes including the eyes. Wearing a niqab (sometimes referred to as a burqa, although this term only technically applies to an Afghan all-in-one garment) is quite common in many countries in which Muslims make up the majority of the population. In most Muslim countries, such expressions of modesty are voluntary. In others, such as Afghanistan under the Taliban, they were enforced under the threat of severe physical punishment.[6]


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## 2020hindsight (30 November 2007)

AHHH wowo - at last !! - some sense !!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/27/2102505.htm



> Saudi FM criticises rape lash judgement
> Posted Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:01pm AEDT
> 
> Saudi Arabia's Foreign Minister has distanced his Government from a court's decision to sentence a rape victim to 200 lashes.
> ...




I particularly like the fqact that her husband was always on her side and defending her - that she was only trying to retrieve a photo from the "unrelated male" 


> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/29/2105281.htm
> Saudi judges insulted me, gang rape victim says
> Posted Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:48pm AEDT
> 
> ...


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## kitehigh (1 December 2007)

Julia said:


> Thanks for that, Kitehigh.  I appreciate your input.  What would happen, e.g. to a woman who never married (does that happen?) whose father died and who had no brothers?  To whom would she have to defer?
> 
> Does your wife have to observe the covering up rules which apply to the Muslim women?




Firstly to answer your first question.  The only reason normally that a woman wouldn't marry in Saudi, is if she had been raped and was now deemed to be spoiled.  Or suffered from some other handicap that made her non marriage material.  If she had no immediate male relatives because of death or some other reason, than she would generally be taken in by the extended family.  Arabs generally have quite large families and family bonds are one of their strongest traits.  

In response to your second question, my wife never travelled with me to Saudi as I was only there on a short assignment.  But if she did, than she would have been required to cover up.  Depends on where you go in Saudi determines how strict the dress code for foreigners is.  For example in Jeddah I saw foreign woman getting around with no head scarf, but wearing the black robe to cover their bodies.  Whereas in Riyadh which is the capital of Saudi they have a very strick dress code and enforce it.   So there you see no woman getting around without full covering.
Living in Dubai foreign woman are under no obligation to cover up, but my wife did start dressing more conservative after awhile as she wanted to avoid the stares and harassment from the males of all different races.  Dubai also has alot of prostitution and with alot of them coming from russia this provided other problems for my wife.  Because she has blonde hair and is quite attractive she would attract even more attention from males.  Thats the problem when you have some poorly educated guys thinking all western woman must be prostitutes.
On an interesting side note, I have never had a problem dealing with the local woman who work (in dubai local woman are allowed to work and drive cars) for the different govt organizations such as the telco and utilites companies, but my wife on the other hand copped no amount of grief from them.  I put it down to that they resent western woman to a certain extent, because they see local males hooking up with them and also taking them as brides, whereas a local woman is not allowed to marry a foreigner.  I did read that local woman were complaining about this to the rulers, and wanted the marriage restrictions lifted so that they could marry foreign muslim males.  Their argument was that there was not enough available local males to go round so they should be allowed to marry an outsider.


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## Whiskers (8 April 2010)

Another horrible story along the same lines.

It really lowers my opinion of people/country leaders who condone this sort of pracrtice on the basis of tradition and or culture.

Culture and tradition doesn't make it right... just sustained.

As for the women and fathers in particular who actually support such practice, I'd say there's a good chance they suffer from 'Stockholm Syndrome'.

Will the UN (or someone) ever be in a position to impose nations to abide by some basic human rights?


http://www.news.com.au/world/yemeni...fter-intercourse/story-e6frfkyi-1225851585843


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## bellenuit (8 April 2010)

Sorry of this is a bit off topic, but it is relevant to Islamic culture and its ability to integrate with western society.

The best that can be said about this guy is that he is at least honest about his intentions and his anathema for western society, even though he lives in the UK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne7z-_RXWeA


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## Client (9 April 2010)

I am not surprised that arabic countries still remain third world countries with these type of laws and customs...


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