# The World according to Cartman



## Cartman (21 March 2009)

Due to much crapology being dished out on certain threads over the last few days (yes I have been guilty too) I thought a brief explanation of my world might put a few blocks in their right holes. I’ll try to be reasonably brief cause I don’t wanna bore folk too much.

Now that I have stated I have doubled an account in under 2 weeks I have suddenly been branded a self praising egotistical  SOB   ---

funnily enuff,  im none of those things ---- Am I glad about the results I posted --- u bet yr sweet marmalade I am ---- but I’ll tell u why ---

Firstly, I posted the results not to big note myself as people have perceived --- I posted them in response to I/Focus comment that picking tops and bottoms and trying to trade them is a’poor’ way to trade (in his opinion, and paraphrased by me) ---- my results tell ME that this is not true, cause that is all I do when I trade –try and pick short term tops and bottoms --- certainly not everyones cup of tea  (I just happen to like ‘instant’ tea) ---- I also posted the results in the E/W thread which was in hindsight not  a great idea  ----- 

I have no problem with folk utilizing E/W --- for me on short term FX charts, it just doesn’t seem to fit ---- I do find the ‘passion’ some people display  when anyone (that would be me) questions the validity of E/W pretty odd (maybe even disturbing ) but that is another debate in itself --- 

I actually asked what i thought were several genuine questions with regard to E/W on different threads. Apart from Oz who did make an attempt (thank u Oz), I was pretty much flamed and told I was speaking crap. Maybe I was maybe I wasn’t --- im actually a very humble person, but if someone wants to dish me up a crap sandwich, then im gona complain to the manager !! --- 



*How big is my Ego* ----- 

Haha ---- (that word went out of my dictionary many years ago)  ---

let me tell ya a story ------ 

A few years ago when I started trading ---- I turned over  well over a million dollars in my first six months for the princely Net return of  $26,000 ----- didn’t Comsec luv me !!

2 years later *I had to sell a house* (fortunately not the one I was living in) to pay off the debt I had created by over leveraging and getting burned on sky diving spec stocks ---- kinda funny eh!!

*Enter the Learning phase* --------

I stopped trading for a coupla years and went into ‘education’ mode ------ Smart move --- id recommend that !! ---

I estimate ive now probably done 2,500 hours of screen time mainly on FX, but more importantly --- Ive been religiously on a Sim for 5-6 (sometimes 10) hours a day for several months ---- achieving pretty much an 80% strike rate for a while now ---- 

TH points out the importance of practice ------ smart man that TH !! 


*Do I think im a good trader*??   ---- haha ----

Lets imagine this is the equivalent of Alcoholics Anonymous ----

(As I stand up and state) ------- I still consider myself to be a Sh#t trader --------- doubling one small account means nothing -----  I’d love to stand up in a couple of years and state that im still doubling accounts after a squillion trades --------- unfortunately that is unlikely --- not because of my trading (it has improved beyond belief ) --- more the problem I'll have standing up  !!  ---  lol ---- 

There are a lot of  good traders on this forum ---- Nick (who ive been at logger heads with for the last week) is a good trader ---- no question about that --- just a bit of a personality clash there  ---- (ill be surprised if he reads this far though  lol -- ) 

Frank D ------ a picture paints a thousand words --- 

So the point of this great babble that I have just bored everyone with is what ??? ---- How the hell should I know ------ Im just babbling ---------- 

Maybe if it helps someone to actually take the time to *“Learn”* to trade *“Before”* they lose their house ----------- then the post will have been worthwhile ---- 


Thank you linesmen thank you  ball boys ----


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## Sean K (21 March 2009)

Have you been drinking?


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## theasxgorilla (21 March 2009)

kennas said:


> Have you been drinking?




And if so, should he be???


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## drsmith (21 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> A few years ago when I started trading ---- I turned over  well over a million dollars in my first six months for the princely Net return of  $26,000 ----- didn’t Comsec luv me !!



When trying to pick the bottom in November last year I turned over $100000 for a profit of $30.12.


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## tech/a (21 March 2009)

Riveting


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## nunthewiser (21 March 2009)

drsmith said:


> When trying to pick the bottom in November last year I turned over $100000 for a profit of $30.12.




 all profits good m8


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## nunthewiser (21 March 2009)

kennas said:


> Have you been drinking?






theasxgorilla said:


> And if so, should he be???






tech/a said:


> Riveting





OH leave the bloke alone .......geez guys ...yas all picked on him for posting elswhere . SOME even suggested he start his own thread ........he done did that and now ya still picking on him 

more power to ya cartman ........but a slight suggestion ......... lay off the dexies bro 

have a great day and thanks for sharing some of that


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## beamstas (21 March 2009)

Cartman is a pretty cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything!

Brad


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## Bobby (21 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> ---- achieving pretty much an 80% strike rate for a while now ----
> 
> 
> *Do I think im a good trader*??   ---- haha ----
> ...




An 80%  strike makes you  the *Big Dog* :venus: 


You must be using the new Cartman Wave setup system !

Where do I send my chq  ?


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## MS+Tradesim (21 March 2009)

Hey Cartman, I appreciate your honesty and admire your intelligent persistence. You will succeed for the right reasons.


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## Largesse (21 March 2009)

beamstas said:


> Cartman is a pretty cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything!
> 
> Brad




gtfo&gb24chan


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## nunthewiser (21 March 2009)

Largesse said:


> gtfo&gb24chan




UH?


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## MRC & Co (21 March 2009)

Yes Cartman, it's funny on this forum that most will think your crazy if you try and pick bottoms and tops, but I am with you, it's probably the best thing to do if you know what your looking for.

As for Nick, I have seen a set-up where he fades the edge of a range, so he does infact do it himself to some extent if circumstances permit.

I used to read this forum and only try trend following methods due to all that posted, to mixed success and failure, then TH popped up his head and started talking about fading patterns, where you can set ultra tight stops, know if your right or wrong instantly and hence, leverage up your position, since then, I will never look back!  

Good to have others who go against the herd mentality here!  I enjoy your posts and completely 100% believe your results, sad people talk about the 'tall poppy syndrome' and here they are critisizing someone who has done the time, and has knowledge to impart that you won't read in a book becuase he actually trades so doesn't need to write BS cliches, or copy some traditional method or system.

Cartman, perhaps include your method in this thread?  And a better exaplanation of what you mean by 'cycles', and your definition of 'momentum', it sort of confuses me exactly what you mean when you talk about it.....


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## beamstas (21 March 2009)

Largesse said:


> gtfo&gb24chan




uhhhmm? 

I don't get you 

I guess you are trying to step on my toes, like you are to everyone else around here.

Brad


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## nunthewiser (21 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Good to have others who go against the herd mentality here!  I enjoy your posts and completely 100% believe your results, sad people talk about the 'tall poppy syndrome' and here they are critisizing someone who has done the time, and has knowledge to impart that you won't read in a book becuase he actually trades so doesn't need to write BS cliches, or copy some traditional method or system.
> 
> .




amen ! good post


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## Wysiwyg (21 March 2009)

There are a few points worth noting in your opening speech but mostly as you typed, babbling.And you have every right too. 

I don`t compare myself to anyone here because we all have different circumstances, goals and levels of experience.Lesser or greater, doesn`t matter.

And it is o.k. to self confirm ones achievements now and then.No need to be full of ourselves though.


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## Naked shorts (21 March 2009)

Largesse said:


> gtfo&gb24chan




attempted translation: Get the f**k out & "???" to fortune



MRC & Co said:


> Good to have others who go against the herd mentality here!  I enjoy your posts and completely 100% believe your results, sad people talk about the 'tall poppy syndrome' and here they are critisizing someone who has done the time, and has knowledge to impart that you won't read in a book becuase he actually trades so doesn't need to write BS cliches, or copy some traditional method or system.




Well said.


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## IFocus (21 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> Firstly, I posted the results not to big note myself as people have perceived --- I posted them in response to I/Focus comment that picking tops and bottoms and trying to trade them is a’poor’ way to trade (in his opinion, and paraphrased by me) ----




If I remember correctly one of the Market Wizards made a lot of money trading tops.


Good luck Cartman keep up the SIM work the challenge never ends


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## beerwm (21 March 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> attempted translation: Get the f**k out & "???" to fortune




Attempted translation 2: "Get the f**k out & 'go back to' 4chan"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4chan - maybe?


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## MRC & Co (21 March 2009)

IFocus said:


> Good luck Cartman keep up the SIM work the challenge never ends




I think his off the SIM now, and doing well live.

I would personally say, once your consistently profitable on the SIM, to flick it off and stay live unless you take a huge DD.

On that note, I bet Cartman makes more live trades, than 99.9% of people on this forum, perhaps something to think about!


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## tech/a (21 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> I think his off the SIM now, and doing well live.
> 
> I would personally say, once your consistently profitable on the SIM, to flick it off and stay live unless you take a huge DD.
> 
> On that note, I bet Cartman makes more live trades, than 99.9% of people on this forum, perhaps something to think about!








> I estimate ive now probably done 2,500 hours of screen time mainly on FX, but more importantly --- Ive been religiously on a Sim for 5-6 (sometimes 10) hours a day for several months ---- achieving pretty much an 80% strike rate for a while now ----




I'm not reading that?

Your pretty right with regard to those actually trading but would say its more likely that its those who consistantly trade year in year out.

I'm still rivetted and interested in the explainations you have asked for.


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## togs (21 March 2009)

beerwm said:


> Attempted translation 2: "Get the f**k out & 'go back to' 4chan"




Correct.


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## beamstas (21 March 2009)

i don't know what 4chan is but i got it off an email from a guy i work with

sorry ? 

Brad


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## MRC & Co (21 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> I'm not reading that?
> 
> Your pretty right with regard to those actually trading but would say its more likely that its those who consistantly trade year in year out.
> 
> I'm still rivetted and interested in the explainations you have asked for.




Your not reading what?

What's more likely it's those who trade consistently year in and year out?


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## tech/a (21 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Your not reading what?
> 
> What's more likely it's those who trade consistently year in and year out?




I think his off the SIM now, and doing well live.

*That.*

What's more likely it's those who trade consistently year in and year out?

*The 5%*


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## MRC & Co (21 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> Now that I have stated I have doubled an account in under 2 weeks I have suddenly been branded a self praising egotistical  SOB   ---




SIM $?

More likely than what tech, just more likely?


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## Bobby (21 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> I think his off the SIM now, and doing well live.
> 
> *That.*
> 
> ...




Think he may surprise you as he moves in that direction  

Most who follow  Guru's end up  in the 95% . :sheep:

Remember when you came tops in a  technical trading course years ago & then blew $20,000 trying your new skills trading  .
You quickly moved on from that Tech   

The rhythm of short term market movements is what Cartman trades !~


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## nunthewiser (21 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> Most who follow  Guru's end up  in the 95% . :sheep:





AMEN! to above statement..........cant all be in the lucky 5% regardless of how many paid subscriptions you follow ......forgive the following as it wont appear on any newsletters or guru subscriptions .probably not even in ASF .BUT has found after years of listening to ppl in chat /forums /seminars /reports on courses then watching trades..... the simple fact IS . YOU EITHER GOT IT OR YOU DONT!........ seen ppl spend fortunes on learning ..... still cant turn a OVERALL profit year in year out . all they do is feed the m,arket........... HAS MET and seen ppl that have NO guruism training and just have plenny screen time and OWN teachings for OWN self and OWN ideas on them thoughts .that continue to outperform and blow to bits ANY market statistics and expectations ....... 

dunno bout you guys but 5% is a small number when you add up the ppl out there 

which are you ?



i know where im at


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## nunthewiser (21 March 2009)

HEY Cartman ........... 


thanks for providing a thread that we can post in without gettin shood along by the more egotistaical and snootier posters ......

takes allsorts of ppl to trade these markets and its good to voice something without someone whinging that ya blocking up there airspace because apparently there thoughts are worth more than yours 


onya darl


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## Wysiwyg (21 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> AMEN! to above statement..........cant all be in the lucky 5%
> dunno bout you guys but 5% is a small number when you add up the ppl out there
> 
> which are you ?
> ...




Assuming you consider yourself in the `so called` 5% category, could you post some of your trading expertise so as this can be verified?
That is assuming you trade at all  .


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## nunthewiser (21 March 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> Assuming you consider yourself in the `so called` 5% category, could you post some of your trading expertise so as this can be verified?
> That is assuming you trade at all  .




my calls are in the forums with none of this hindsight bullsheet attached 

or you could always come into the chatroom during market hours

i am not a "chart" posting person .never tried , never learnt 

if you want broker statements i suppose you could come over and work out how to do it for me (as in putting on this screen), other than that ...... do i actually care what you think re my trading habits ?

like i said  you may care to look or just join us in REALTIME trading chat where hindsight plays no part 

again .... which are you ?


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## nunthewiser (21 March 2009)

Oh by the way wysiwyg


how about a few calls from you in real time / non hindsight ..... ?


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## Bobby (21 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> AMEN! to above statement..........cant all be in the lucky 5% regardless of how many paid subscriptions you follow ......forgive the following as it wont appear on any newsletters or guru subscriptions .probably not even in ASF .BUT has found after years of listening to ppl in chat /forums /seminars /reports on courses then watching trades..... the simple fact IS . YOU EITHER GOT IT OR YOU DONT!........ seen ppl spend fortunes on learning ..... still cant turn a OVERALL profit year in year out . all they do is feed the m,arket........... HAS MET and seen ppl that have NO guruism training and just have plenny screen time and OWN teachings for OWN self and OWN ideas on them thoughts .that continue to outperform and blow to bits ANY market statistics and expectations .......
> 
> dunno bout you guys but 5% is a small number when you add up the ppl out there
> 
> ...




Yep its a sad reality of what happens to the herd .

WHO would sell secrets of best  trading methods if they realy worked ??


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## Wysiwyg (21 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> Oh by the way wysiwyg
> 
> 
> how about a few calls from you in real time / non hindsight ..... ?




My last two analyses were on the USD/JPY and spot gold price.

Both preceded considerable moves.I occasionally try scalping  so I don`t often use 1 minute charts for price action analysis also darts is a low percentage game for me.

I`m also in the 95% category, have a nervous disorder, crippled by anxiety, numbed by fear and I`m afraid of the dark so am no competition against an elite trader.

Jab me next time I make a chart analysis and text presentation.


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## nunthewiser (21 March 2009)

Wysiwyg said:


> My last two analyses were on the USD/JPY and spot gold price.
> 
> Both preceded considerable moves.I occasionally try scalping  so I don`t often use 1 minute charts for price action analysis also darts is a low percentage game for me.
> 
> ...




never claimed to be an elite trader . i have my good years and bad.... BUT overall i am infront and at the point where i will continue to be so........ is that viewed as wrong because i care not for following guru,s ?

dont know what your gripe is with me but to be honest i dont really care either ..... 

is it because i slagged off following gurus? or paying to follow?

i do not get your last line ? 

keep on keeping on is all i got to say

have a niceday


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## Naked shorts (22 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> On that note, I bet Cartman makes more live trades, than 99.9% of people on this forum, perhaps something to think about!




Just because someone is trading live, doesn't mean they are better then someone who trades demo, imo, it is wrong to encourage/peer pressure people to trade live who really don't know what they are doing or aren't ready. 

You are only going to lose money trading a live account, working on, testing and attempting different enhancements on your system.

Stormin Normin is a perfect example, he traded demo, then went live, did well, then lost money (blew up two accounts), went back to trading a demo account because he finally understood what its all about, enhanced & refined his trading system to improve his expectancy (this took about a year for him), and now, he is laughing.


p.s. Yes, I am at the stage of improving my expectancy, and I am doing it on a demo account.


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## MRC & Co (22 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> seen ppl spend fortunes on learning ..... still cant turn a OVERALL profit year in year out . all they do is feed the m,arket........... HAS MET and seen ppl that have NO guruism training and just have plenny screen time and OWN teachings for OWN self and OWN ideas on them thoughts .that continue to outperform and blow to bits ANY market statistics and expectations .......




.........................................?  That must be impossible, nobody can do that, you have to learn triangle breakouts, Elliot Wave, perhaps even those famed retracement zones of that Fibo guy?    Seriously nun, what you say it completely, and utterly, the truth from all I have seen too.

Market goes up, market goes down.  You can interpret and create your own view of why and trade it based on any way you like, even develop your own system (aka Frank D), or you can try combine a heap of traditional analysis tools and find your own way to make them profitable, or you can simply jump from one method of analysis or system to another, always looking for that holy grail and simply have periods of success, but mostly just hand those hard earned $$$$ over to someone else.  

Naked, my point is only that, after being profitable on SIM, you MUST do it live which brings about a completely different set of problems (emotions), so in that aspect, they are FAR better.  Of course, if your doing SIM, making a packet, then go live and fail, you have to work out why and go back to SIM, but if your surviving live or even just loosing a little, then you should stay there and work on it in a complete and utter real-life environment.  I highly doubt most people here do many live trades a month, or even in a year.


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## Cartman (22 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> ........but a slight suggestion ......... lay off the dexies bro




 --- r u one of my neighbours Nun?



MS+Tradesim said:


> You will succeed for the right reasons.




i think just setting realistic short term goals is the key ----  my original goal was to stop losing bucket loads of money lol --- (done that)   ----  ive been lucky --- ive been able to sit in front of a computer for extended periods to learn ---- most people dont have that luxury ---- 



MRC & Co said:


> it's funny on this forum that most will think your crazy if you try and pick bottoms and tops, but I am with you, it's probably the best thing to do if you know what your looking for.




agree Mirc ----- first punters have to work out what time frame they like to trade in -------- short suits my situation ---- the pulse of the market is the momentum of the chart right at the coal face ---- its the only 'reliable' information to me ---- u gotta think in reverse sometimes  --  eg ----
if yr gona short the Eur ---- where is the safest place/lowest risk to get in ----  at the last high of course  --- doh!!  --- just dont short it until the momentum has shifted otherwise u'll get crucified!!




MRC & Co said:


> TH popped up his head and started talking about fading patterns, where you can set ultra tight stops, know if your right or wrong instantly and hence, leverage up your position, since then, I will never look back!




great training exercise to try on FX as well  ----- when there is an obvious trend up for eg ------  only allow yourself to take short trades (or opposite for longs) ---  punters will learn more about the instrument in one night than a week of trading breakout patterns ---- 

bludy TH !! ------ i wonder if folk realise just how good he actually is ---- 



MRC & Co said:


> Cartman, perhaps include your method in this thread?  And a better exaplanation of what you mean by 'cycles', and your definition of 'momentum', it sort of confuses me exactly what you mean when you talk about it.....




nothing clever about what i do Mirc ---- basic chart reading --- i just like to read off 1 second charts -----  charts in any time frame look the same ---  so i figure y not put the microscope on and get in close ---- eg if the 5 min is in an obvious up trend --- wait till the 1 minute hits a momentum low --- then buy the next higher low off the 1 sec  chart just as it turns --- simple as all crap in theory ---- if u can manage to get the momentum low of say an hourly to marry an entry with the shorter time frames chances are u'll get a very nice swing trade ---- 

Time relative to the range of any move is also often important to gauge whether the momentum is fake or not  ----- (Frank D is the man to explain Time) 

would post a bit more detail but got a few issues to deal with this week --- hopefully get a chance to continue in a few days



Bobby said:


> Remember when you came tops in a  technical trading course years ago & then blew $20,000 trying your new skills trading  .
> You quickly moved on from that Tech




losing brings out the true character in people for sure Bob --- winning can make u greedy or lazy ---- losing can make u hungry 



nunthewiser said:


> thanks for providing a thread that we can post in without gettin shood along by the more egotistaical and snootier posters ......
> 
> takes allsorts of ppl to trade these markets and its good to voice something without someone whinging that ya blocking up there airspace because apparently there thoughts are worth more than yours
> 
> onya darl




onya too Nun ---- egos can get in the way of epistemology eh!! 

thanks for the input all round lads ---- sorry if the first post was a bit crazy!!  ---- ya get that occasionally ---


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## BBand (22 March 2009)

There are some young guns contributing to this forum who are well worth listening to !, Cartman included.

They are like a breath of fresh air 

Keep up the good posting guys.

Tell us oldies how you see it, I've certainly refined my methodology (made it simpler) and have tried new tactics based on some of their postings. Thank you

Peter
PS I swing trade bottoms, well not exactly bottoms but the next bar, and find it very rewarding (great initial stop loss levels)


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## Bobby (23 March 2009)

Just interested to know how your style of trading went today Cartman ?


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## MRC & Co (23 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> Just interested to know how your style of trading went today Cartman ?




Sarcasm?


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## Bobby (23 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Sarcasm?




NO !


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## MRC & Co (23 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> NO !




Today was a running day on most indices, thought you may be joking about fading it, though no idea what happened on Cartmans instrument.


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## Bobby (23 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Today was a running day on most indices, thought you may be joking about fading it, though no idea what happened on Cartmans instrument.




Well I tried to fade it twice ( SPI ) just goes to show what thoughts we have  =


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## MRC & Co (23 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> Well I tried to fade it twice ( SPI ) just goes to show what thoughts we have  =




If you watched order flow, it was pretty obvious from that bottom there was a buyer in there, not to mention, Nikkei was going up in a straight line, then Hang Seng opened and POP!  Not a day to fade often IMO unless picking small tops but not worth the trouble on such a running day.

That being said, I also got done, trying to catch the move with too big size and too tight stops.  Should have lightened the load and let it ride.    All a learning curve.


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## Bobby (23 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> If you watched order flow, it was pretty obvious from that bottom there was a buyer in there, not to mention, Nikkei was going up in a straight line, then Hang Seng opened and POP!  Not a day to fade often IMO unless picking small tops but not worth the trouble on such a running day.
> 
> That being said, I also got done, trying to catch the move with too big size and too tight stops.  Should have lightened the load and let it ride.    All a learning curve.




Thought the up & up was a  play - local , did OK on the opening & then waited for what I though was a  turn around twice , ran no stops  until the pain hit .
Really was a surprise how it kept going   .
Will be taking a short again maybe tonight ?? just after the Dow opens ,3585 as I type .
Sorry you got hit when on size , always something to learn.


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## MRC & Co (23 March 2009)

Not sure what time the speech is tonight, but you may want to wait and see how the market reacts first.  Probably not a good idea to be fading spikes at times when fundamental news is coming out.


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## Bobby (23 March 2009)

Sorry for the delay, been eating .
Yes your right , will need to stay up .


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## Cartman (25 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> Just interested to know how your style of trading went today Cartman ?





g'day Bob ----- to be honest trading took a back seat for the last coupla days so sorry i missed yr post --- ive been attacked by knife wielding 'bandits' and had 'fat ladies' trying to sing to me ---lol ---   i told those 'fatties' that i didnt like their tune so im still here to tell the tale ---- cryptic?? --- yeah, but its my thread so i can say what i like cant i ??  ----- 

Mirc --- re the tight stops/heavy leverage/position size ---- still a work in progress for me too ---- its a fine line to get it right eh?? ----- 

ps if i say anything a bit crazy at the momento, disregard it as euphoria lol --- and no its not Dexies Nun ----  good to be back


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## Naked shorts (25 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> g'day Bob ----- to be honest trading took a back seat for the last coupla days so sorry i missed yr post --- ive been attacked by knife wielding 'bandits' and had 'fat ladies' trying to sing to me ---lol ---   i told those 'fatties' that i didnt like their tune so im still here to tell the tale ---- cryptic?? --- yeah, but its my thread so i can say what i like cant i ??  -----




Cryptic indeed, did you go to an investing seminar?
(a bunch of crooks trying to convert you to the ways of value investing)


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## Cartman (28 March 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> Cryptic indeed, did you go to an investing seminar?
> (a bunch of crooks trying to convert you to the ways of value investing)




 -- nothing as sinister as 'value investing' in my life NS --- but it was a good guess --- 

My view ------ (*NB* --- not directed at u NS -- just me babbling on in general again )

--- perhaps i have a warped sense of perspective on what is important ----- but money and wealth are basically a *superficial form of vanity* from where i sit !! -----  nothing wrong with making a few bucks but people get so wrapped up in trying to make a squillion dollars that they forget *WHY* they are trying to make a squillion dollars !!!! -------- 

gotta ask yourself why u do what u do in life ---- if u work that out yr possibly on the road to enlightenment --------- if u've never considered the bigger  picture (ie  the one *without U in it*) -- then the chances are u have not really experienced the meaning of life (thank u John Cleese)  ----- or u r simply a selfish b@stard who is way too wrapped up in yr own self importance (no body on ASF would fit that category   ----

my point is ???? ---- i have no point !! ---- but i continually look for answers to stuff that may appear mundane and unimportant   ---

the beauty of life is in the simple things -----    

To Kennas original question --- have i been drinking? ---- this time ---YES! 

To Gorilla's question --- Should i be? --- u will only know if u walk a mile in my shoes !! 


To Tech/a ---- if u happen to read this ---- yr quip re TH's comment that the current run will end at 11.45am  or 1PM monday --- ie --- *could he be more specific * ------ was *VERY* funny ----------- for a serious guy u are quite amusing    ----------- 

ps  i need a drink --- lol ------

pps Dont ya luv the weekend ---- no higher highs/lower lows --- fake breakouts/ false dips to worry about ---- !!!!   lol ----


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## >Apocalypto< (28 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> pps Dont ya luv the weekend ---- no higher highs/lower lows --- fake breakouts/ false dips to worry about ---- !!!!   lol ----




I hate weekends! I feel naked with out the FX markets open! I am serious I think I have a problem!


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## Cartman (28 March 2009)

>Apocalypto< said:


> I hate weekends! I feel naked with out the FX markets open! I am serious I think I have a problem!




haha --- only FX traders would understand  (verify please Stormer ??)  ----- 

i miss the higher highs and lower lows as well Apoc  ---- its like the world stops for 48 hours ------  -------- geez do i have to mow the lawns and  snip the edges !! ---- how bludy mundane is that ----- lol -----


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## Bobby (28 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> g'day Bob ----- to be honest trading took a back seat for the last coupla days so sorry i missed yr post --- ive been attacked by knife wielding 'bandits' and had 'fat ladies' trying to sing to me ---lol ---   i told those 'fatties' that i didnt like their tune so im still here to tell the tale ---- cryptic?? --- yeah, but its my thread so i can say what i like cant i ??  -----




 Hello Mate  Got it   , welcome to the club  ,  is it a Bias on direction ?

 I'm working on it with a 2 contract contradictory play , need to  survive the chop then add size when direction goes my way .
All discretionary & hard to verbalize for now , but stuff this business of closing out to see a reverse happen over & over again !!!


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## Cartman (28 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> Hello Mate  Got it   , welcome to the club  ,  is it a Bias on direction ?
> 
> I'm working on it with a 2 contract contradictory play , need to  survive the chop then add size when direction goes my way .
> All discretionary & hard to verbalize for now , but stuff this business of closing out to see a reverse happen over & over again !!!




haha ---- g'day Bob ---- funny thing is that even though my original crypticism (i made that word up --- but i do that !!) was not related to what u mention ---

i understand *EXACTLY*  what u speak of !!! --------- i do exactly the same thing ------- i mean if punters want to take a position on  a trend, and the trend turns 'false' --------- 

what is the problem with taking an opposing position at the same time as the original position instead of initiating a stop loss ------- thereby stabilizing the position until the true trend becomes evident again -------- just takes a bit longer to make the position profitable ------- 

position sizing is a very under rated criteria eh??  i know u know


----------



## Bobby (28 March 2009)

Thanks for confirming my mindset , I'm going to try and solve this chop crap & I now know you know what I'm talking about


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## beamstas (28 March 2009)

Sorry cartman, i think our relationship is over! Each time i read one of your posts i have to fully concentrate to read what it says!

Brad


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## Cartman (29 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> Thanks for confirming my mindset , I'm going to try and solve this chop crap & I now know you know what I'm talking about





i knew that !!




beamstas said:


> Sorry cartman, i think our relationship is over! Each time i read one of your posts i have to fully concentrate to read what it says!
> 
> Brad




u think u've got problems ---- how do u think i feel ---- i live with me !!

ps read my posts backwards -- they make more sense that way


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## Cartman (29 March 2009)

Dunno if we can get Techno or any of the other E/W boyz over here on the babble thread ---- but i am genuinely interested in having some constructive discussion in dissecting the E/W counts u guys are showing on BHP for example ---- 

coupla questions from me for a start ---

does anyone actually take entries on BHP based on E/W from an EOD chart?

wouldnt it be easier to simply trade BHP off S/R and trend lines?

i made the point on the E/W thread that it is a lagging indicator ( some didnt like that view  ----- and i asked if E/W's hone in a *lower time frame to make their entries* more specific?  ----- the response was i was basically talking rubbish ---- and no answer was forthcoming ----

not a challenge or a put down contest, but a fair dinkum discussion on entries/exits and *why* they would/were taken might be enlightening----- 

anyone interested? --- if not, no big deal  

ps any E/W's still holding BHP long?  if so, what is yr S/Loss position? -- has it been adjusted? --- and why? ---------- if u cashed the long in --- for what reason?  was the reason based on E/W ?


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## tech/a (29 March 2009)

*Cartman*



> Dunno if we can get Techno or any of the other E/W boyz over here on the babble thread ----




I'll use this thread to respond to this question in general terms (IE if asked by anyone else).
It takes up to an hr to mark up a chart and type up a response to most questions.
The agenda for most including yourself is to attempt to have the analysis fall flat on its face.
You have no intention of learning or indeed investigating this or any other methodology---you already know how to extract thousands from the market.
You and the likes of yourself arent prepared to put in the 10000 hrs and resent those that have.

You have to be *RIGHT*--you simply dont understand that this game is about HOW to handle being WRONG! As Radge once said it doesnt matter if your wrong only HOW LONG you remain WRONG.

Learn whatever you like but if you cant apply it profitably then your stuffed.
90% here ARE stuffed. They have *NO IDEA.*

You and people like you are the single most common reason Excellent posters dissappear into oblivion. *THEY CANT BE BOTHERED.*


----------



## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> *Cartman*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




GEEZUS!..get over yaself tech/a! unreal m8 ..... i have seen you prod GOOD posters here also . trembling hand ( he stomped off ) sir osisoliver ( he had to provide documentation ! plus quite a few other good posters  diisapear after your egotistical toxic attacks because they may not agree or have a different viewpoint 

so because some here question radge , other EW dribblers etc it makes us the reason for them not posting?? 

geez m8 i reckon you should check ya own nest b4 you start pooping in others 

have a great day


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## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> *Cartman*
> 
> 
> 
> ...






they cant be bothered discussing a two sided point and only want a one sided view ? they leave because here at ASF there is usually 2 views ? 

if they wanna be legends in there lunchboxes without a varying viewpoint why post on a public forum in the first place ?

geez m8 youve annoyed me now with that crock filled statement

bugga it im not a respected poster but i think i will stomp off also because you upset me


good grief


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## beamstas (29 March 2009)

Nun, anyone can find flaws in peoples posts and trading systems. The difference is 90% of the people here couldn't design one better than the one they are pissing all over.



> they cant be bothered discussing a two sided point and only want a one sided view ? they leave because here at ASF there is usually 2 views ?




No. They can't be bothered babysitting people... If people like radge have traded profitably for years with their style of trading why should they have to justify it? Doesn't it speak for itself? If people know better then why arn't they out there doing it rather than pissing on someone who has been there and done it already. 

Im not going to walk up to tiger when he gets down here to Aussie and say his golf swing sucks. 

Brad


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## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

beamstas said:


> No. They can't be bothered babysitting people... If people like radge have traded profitably for years with their style of trading why should they have to justify it? Doesn't it speak for itself? If people know better then why arn't they out there doing it rather than pissing on someone who has been there and done it already.
> 
> Im not going to walk up to tiger when he gets down here to Aussie and say his golf swing sucks.
> 
> Brad




But no ones actually peeed on radge from what ive seen , i have seen ppl ask questions , offer other anylasis and offer a different percieved outcome ... also mygoodself DID question if hindsight trading was to be listened to as i am NOT a subscriber and only believe what i see . i also noticed as soon as anything in radges thread was questioned or a different outcome was looked at that , a lot of his subscribers were quick to jump in and say how bad we was for apparently wreckin the thread ! ..... just on a side note MY CSL call was correct but that was still looked at disruption ? why is that ....

anyways this reply has got nothin to do with the point in hand with tech/a 

but have a niceday regardless


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## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

ok back to sulking......... with the rest apparently ..... no more questions regarding anything as it seems that its much nicer to all concernned when only one view offered


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## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

beamstas said:


> No. They can't be bothered babysitting people... If people like radge have traded profitably for years with their style of trading why should they have to justify it? Doesn't it speak for itself? If people know better then why arn't they out there doing it rather than pissing on someone who has been there and done it already.
> 
> 
> Brad




um may i suggesrt you read tech/a.s posts towards sirosisoliver before we continue this .. sir o presented stuff and had to justify it ...!! 

ok this getting nowhere and im obviously disrupting things again because i read EVERYONES posts NOT just the popular hip swinging bunch


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## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> ---
> 
> does anyone actually take entries on BHP based on E/W from an EOD chart?
> 
> ...





i trade BHP from percieved support/resistance lines .

i use these lines as when entering it can make for a nice low%loss on stoploss points , there is the exceptions as in false breaks(up and down ) but have found the majority of times that it can be a reliable low loss entrys 

happy to stop out if im wrong and regard stoploss as just another part of the job at hand

also i watch vols VERY closely around these areas as actual watching of the depth /sales games around these points can often give one a fairly clear message .

i am however not as succesful as others percieve to be here but thems my basic entry and exit points and why i choose them points rather than clear breakouts etc etc

i do use other indicators and scans etc etc but there for me and of no use to anyone else if one cannot accept that taking a loss is part of the game we play


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## tech/a (29 March 2009)

> um may i suggesrt you read tech/a.s posts towards sirosisoliver before we continue this .. sir o presented stuff and had to justify it ...!!




You bet.
I didnt believe the guy.
He wanted $500 to prove it.
I obliged.
He proved it.
I payed Joe $500 as agreed.

And the problem is?

More than happy to bugger off this site.
Its not what it used to be and fast becoming another HotCopper.
Just say the word mighty mouth.


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## Naked shorts (29 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> -----  nothing wrong with making a few bucks but people get so wrapped up in trying to make a squillion dollars that they forget *WHY* they are trying to make a squillion dollars !!!! --------




I used to think like that, then i meet some people who had a decent amount of money and I realized I had been brainwashed.


----------



## >Apocalypto< (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> You have to be *RIGHT*--you simply dont understand that this game is about HOW to handle being WRONG! As Radge once said it doesnt matter if your wrong only HOW LONG you remain WRONG.
> 
> Learn whatever you like but if you cant apply it profitably then your stuffed.




That people is one of the best paragraphs of information you can read in regards to becoming a consistent winner!

Learn to appreciate your trades no matter the outcome as equal with no bias!

Tech, fantastic post! Beginners take heed! 

One of the best steps I have ever made in my trading was to read 'Trading in the Zone' I have read it fives times now and above is one of the messages I got out of it.

Well done Tech!


----------



## Cartman (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> *
> The agenda for most including yourself is to attempt to have the analysis fall flat on its face.
> *



*

actually that is incorrect Tech ---- u'll note i have not 'bothered' the E/W thread as i said i would (apart from a little joke this morning which shouldnt have offended anyone) 

and btw, the analysis cannot fall flat on its face if its valid can it 

my questions above are genuine, but no one will answer them --- from what ive seen, u r one of the few who uses E/W the way it should be used ---- as a broad overview of the bigger picture which gives possible indications of how the market may play out over time ---- i can actually see some value in it that way  -------- my question is simply ---- can E/W be used exclusively for entries and exits or do real traders actually hone in to shorter time frames to trade? -------- my view until proven otherwise is that it would be a difficult methodology to trade independently of other 'indicators' ----- nothing sinister in my pov at all ---

if u or any other E/W 'admits' to using other indicators/methods etc (which i know u do anyway) ---- who cares ---- im not gona jump up and down and say nah nah ---- told u so !!

to be honest i cant understand why the die hard E/W's get so peeved off about people questioning the validity of the method ----- im not saying its not valid --- i just see it as being toted as far more important or useful than it really is ---- a lot of new traders can get tied up in knots with the complexities of a squillion wave counts etc etc ----- 





			=tech/a;414601]
You have no intention of learning or indeed investigating this or any other methodology---
You and the likes of yourself arent prepared to put in the 10000 hrs and resent those that have.


Click to expand...




i was actually very interested to see how my simple T/A entries/exits on the BHP chart would marry up to E/W entry/exits --- again nothing sinister in that

i dont resent anyone who takes the time to learn something in great detail -- to the contrary ---- i am simply questioning the 'practicality' of the method to the average Joe Bloggs

ps Joe Bloggs is a very good friend of mine and he says he doesnt have 10,000 hrs at his disposal --- can u recommend something simpler and less time consuming? *




tech/a said:


> ---you already know how to extract thousands from the market.




haha ---- i like to think my simple methods have validity as i continue to experiment and fine tune areas that im not happy with  ----- but if we consider the analogy that the market is a 'major highway' ---- ive spent more time off the beaten track and up one way dead end streets than probably 10 other punters combined ----- my real time experience should give me some concept of what is/isnt valuable i think  --

some folk are happy to pay 'gurus' for their advice, and follow like sheep, never really understanding what they are actually doing, just happy to pay the fees and make a few bucks ---- i've always preferred the 'Frank Sinatra" method -------- the results can either make or break u, but the road has much better scenery ---- and the pics u show yr kidz are way more interesting --



tech/a said:


> You have to be *RIGHT*--you simply dont understand that this game is about HOW to handle being WRONG! As Radge once said it doesnt matter if your wrong only HOW LONG you remain WRONG.
> [/B]




i understand all right ------ u r right about being wrong -------- being wrong is sometimes all right, but being right is never wrong ---- i just prefer to be right as often as possible  ----  

all jokes aside what u said is correct (apart from me not understanding --- that bit was incorrect !!)  



tech/a said:


> You and people like you are the single most common reason Excellent posters dissappear into oblivion. *THEY CANT BE BOTHERED.*




i wont take offence at that although i could ------- there may actually be the odd pearl in the oyster from 'idiot' posters like myself too Tech , ---- i think the average punter is fairly discerning in working out whether someone is totally full of crap or not --------  if i were posting while at the same time recruiting clients and selling books, u would tend to question my motives rather than herald my generosity i assume?  

ps did i mention my new books ---- 
*"Turn your Forex into Fivex"     and    "Don't Be Depressed By Lower Lows"  *

ps thank u for at least visiting the thread Tech ---- that in itself showed some character ---


pps ---- sorry about the *bold type* above folks  ---- dunno how it happened --- cant fix it --- u'll have to deal with it ---- lol ----


----------



## Cartman (29 March 2009)

Naked shorts said:


> I used to think like that, then i meet some people who had a decent amount of money and I realized I had been brainwashed.




point taken NS -----   to paraphrase and condense what i meant ---- a persons age, marital status, family/friends relationships, health etc etc  all come into the equation as to how important craploads of bucks are at that given point in yr life ------- my opinion as to the lesser importance of money is obviously tainted by my own personal circumstances --- therefore my opinion is biased --- and should be regarded as such --- therefore we are probably both correct for our own situation ----- great thing about life --- it aint black and white !! ---  cheers ----


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## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> *Cartman*
> 
> 
> 
> You and people like you are the single most common reason Excellent posters dissappear into oblivion. *THEY CANT BE BOTHERED.*






tech/a said:


> You bet.
> I didnt believe the guy.
> He wanted $500 to prove it.
> I obliged.
> ...




There is no problem actually ..... just wondering why its ok to question some posters sincerity/methods but not others tho 

glad it worked out to be a nice lil bonus to joe actually 

no one asked you to bugger off just proving a point that perhaps your point made earlier was rather hypocritical as you also have been known to be a little toxic to posters here also .

your input here is enjoyed and actually respected (by myself included). you provide valuable contributions and some bloody good advice at times actually

as far as me being called "mighty mouth " well i,ll just put that down to an emotional outburst and will not exchange personal attacks and namecalling with you 

i do suggest you scroll back from your original post to cartman and then MY post to you and maybe if you can stop that anger towards me and posters like me , you will be able to see i have a mighty valid point .

but hey i suspect you will just pick the bones out of the bits you like and ignore the whole point of my original post 

yet again i reiterate your are an asset to ASF in my view and would hate to see anyone go because they cannot deal with an opposing valid viewpoint , or go stomping off because they had an emotional  outburst

cheers


----------



## Cartman (29 March 2009)

beamstas said:


> ... If people like radge have traded profitably for years with their style of trading why should they have to justify it? Doesn't it speak for itself?




u r right Brad ---------- Nick has nothing to prove regarding his trading -- he *IS* a qualified trader ----  he has a product which punters perceive as valuable -- and he sells it ---- no problem with that ---- i personally dont pay for it -- thats my choice ---- just cause hes good at it doesnt mean we cant question whether he could be better though ---- 

im sure Tiger Woods doesnt tell his coach off for pointing out that his swing has developed a slight in to out bias which is causing an exaggerated fade ---- how many majors has Tiger Woods coach won I wonder ?? 





nunthewiser said:


> , a lot of his subscribers were quick to jump in and say how bad we was for apparently wreckin the thread ! ..... just on a side note MY CSL call was correct but that was still looked at disruption ? why is that ....




understand yr frustration Nun --------- yr view is welcome here


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## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> More than happy to bugger off this site.
> Its not what it used to be and fast becoming another HotCopper.
> Just say the word mighty mouth.




actually after reading how you feel about ASF lately as in regards to hotcopper 

IF you or anyone else here actually thinks MY opinions MY posts MY banter has turned ASF into a worse forum , please let me know as it would be wrong of me to hurt this fine forum because my opinions/views/comments are not welcomed

more than happy to stick in the chatroom and stay right away from the forums IF my presence is deemed to be lowering the tone/standard of ASF

cheers


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## tech/a (29 March 2009)

> but being right is never wrong ----




So you'd agree than that you cant go broke taking a profit?
If your taking a profit you must be right then?


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## Cartman (29 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> understand yr frustration *Nun --------- yr view is welcome here*






nunthewiser said:


> actually after reading how you feel about ASF lately as in regards to hotcopper
> 
> IF you or anyone else here actually thinks MY opinions MY posts MY banter has turned ASF into a worse forum , please let me know as it would be wrong of me to hurt this fine forum because my opinions/views/comments are not welcomed
> 
> ...




funny thing is Nun --- that posters like U (and Tech) are what makes this site interesting --- differences of opinion and friendly 'angry' banter is what makes a good Forum  ----- i'll be pretty peeved if either of u leave


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## tech/a (29 March 2009)

> rather hypocritical as you also have been known to be a little toxic to posters here also .




I will continue to be so.
I Dont believe everything which is written here. I'll question if I feel it needs questioning. Like this



> *So you'd agree than that you cant go broke taking a profit?
> If your taking a profit you must be right then? *


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## Cartman (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> I will continue to be so.
> I Dont believe everything which is written here. I'll question if I feel it needs questioning. Like this





Tech ---- id almost finished writing a response to that post --- when my computer decided to shut the crap down ----

im a slow typer so im pretty peeved about that  (15 minutes of typing !!) 

i will respond again ---- just give me time ---

geez i hate computers sometimes @#&&*&#@!@!#^((^%!!!   

crap etc etc ---- @#$#%&*$%@  

 ---- kind of funny just the same ---- gods of Karma punishing me for my contrary pov ---- lol ----


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## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> I will continue to be so.
> I Dont believe everything which is written here. I'll question if I feel it needs questioning. Like this






> So you'd agree than that you cant go broke taking a profit?
> If your taking a profit you must be right then?




i find that statement quoted a lil misleading actually as one can be right when taking a loss also just as long as that loss is taken when it was planned too and not left too fester . 

profits are all part of the trade , as with expected loss point 

LOL actually have heard of someone going broke "taking a profit" but thats in another business area but he forgot about money management and his profits just did not cover his outlays


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## tech/a (29 March 2009)

And so then If I was only right 30% of the time I couldnt be profitable then could I?


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## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> And so then If I was only right 30% of the time I couldnt be profitable then could I?




define right

if you mean 30% profitable trades and 70% disciplined managed stoploss trades then yes you can be profitable , it is all in how you manage the risk to your rewards ....

no point winning 70% small trades and letting the 30% of bad trades run a bigger loss that the other 70% gained


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## Cartman (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> So you'd agree than that you cant go broke taking a profit?
> If your taking a profit you must be right then?






ok --- ill condense cause I don’t wanna have to type a squillion words again!!!!

U *can* go broke taking a profit if the cumulative profit is exceeded by the cumulative loss – no rocket science there !

Taking a profit is *never wrong* !!! --- *absolutely* !!!! ----  it may be detrimental to yr bottom line due to lost potential --- but u can always re-enter the trade ---  and there will always be more trades in the future ---

The early part of a trade is the *most difficult* ---  and the area which separates traders who survive from those that go under  ---- ps – ive been under so I know what that feels like  ----  

*Position sizing* relative to the size of the punters bank is *paramount* to survival ---- fullstop 

Ps My first post had a lot more detail etc in it but the basic gist is still there ---


----------



## tech/a (29 March 2009)

So its not about being right after all.



> Position sizing relative to the size of the punters bank is paramount to survival ---- fullstop




Really?

How so.


----------



## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

and thankyou cartman


takes allsorts to make the world go round


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## MRC & Co (29 March 2009)

On that note of posters driving others away, where has WayneL gone?  He was a true master and an inspiration for the understanding of the entire spectrum of trading and all it's potential strategies and instruments.


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## Cartman (29 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> and thankyou cartman
> takes allsorts to make the world go round




yr welcome Nun ---- 





tech/a said:


> So its not about being right after all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




come on now Tech ---- surely u have more respect for me than that ----

being right !!!!  ------- silly games  ----- 



Over leverage relative to the punters capital base is possibly the greatest killer of any trading system ---- even if the system is sound in principal ----- robust systems may recover from a bad period ----- but if punters want to risk their whole capital base in a given time frame without any consideration to 'worst case scenarios', they are taking unnecessary risk ------ (the bank should be split into sections b4 trading commences  ---- and the division of those banks should be relative to the % W/L ratio that the system has inferred thru either backtesting or more preferably, forward testing ---  

all in my humble opinion of course -----


----------



## Cartman (29 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> On that note of posters driving others away, where has WayneL gone?  He was a true master and an inspiration for the understanding of the entire spectrum of trading and all it's potential strategies and instruments.





hi Mirc --- hope yr well ------ Wayne was/is as u say ----- "a goddamn marvel of modern science"   -------- (Jack Nicholson --- "Cuckoos Nest" ---- luv Jack!!)


----------



## tech/a (29 March 2009)

> Over leverage relative to the punters capital base is possibly the greatest killer of any trading system ---- even if the system is sound in principal




So I guess you'd agree then that 5 X Nett worth would be lunacy?

Yet 1000s do it when buying a home.
1000s do it when controlling Futures contracts.
Probably Millions do it when trading margin accounts.

Cartman
Those who understand how to effectively use Leverage and the power of Compounding are those who float to the top.

Not all succeed but show me a group of successful investors and I'm sure you'll find many who use both.

MRC
Another post jam packed with snippets of useful information.
A true asset to a site like this. I really am surprised you haven't made moderator status.
Perhaps Site Policeman of moral integrity would be more appropriate.


----------



## MRC & Co (29 March 2009)

Hope you are too Cartman.

On a quick note as this nonsense that the forums are degenerating keeps poking up it's ugly head, a few of my own thoughts:  When I started reading this forum years back, all I remember was talk of traditional T/A, H&S etc, breakouts, EW or looking at volume or backtesting.  This was about 99% of what was on offer and as such, this is where my journey began and these were the methods I read about and looked into to begin with, and still use fragments of them (T/A and volume to date).

I would say the variety has improved DRAMATICALLY, and the encouragment and inspiration of creating your own view of the world and as such, your own way to trade it, as seen through guys like Frank D (who has luckily for us, popped his head into more threads lately) and TH, have improved this forum 10 fold from all I had perused beforehand, which includes threads FAR before my time.  There is a true multitude of styles and methods here now on offer and for that, I think it is far better than any other forum I have come accross.  

I went to Elite Trader and looked at it, too much junk.  I found Traders Laboratory good, but little to no emphasis on DOM (something which itself moves the MAJORITY of global quantities, something to think about and would not be known if not for TH original persistance with it) and no heated debate to question and let members decide for themselves on each individual method.  HotCopper and the other sites, not even worth the site hit.

I too questioned EW at one point and whilst I believe you can make $$$ from it, I believe there are better methods out there which I continue to personally investigate and dedicate time towards.  Just like counting cards in blacjack using -1, 0 and +1 is profitable, but nowhere near (infact, close to 3x less profitable) if you can count cards to the exact numeral.  In essence, I believe you need as much detail as you can about your market, but at the same time, need to keep the application of that detail as simple as you can.


----------



## MRC & Co (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> MRC
> Another post jam packed with snippets of useful information.
> A true asset to a site like this. I really am surprised you haven't made moderator status.
> Perhaps Site Policeman of moral integrity would be more appropriate.




Tech, I would prefer not to be a moderator and do in no way envy Kennas for the work he has too do to try and balance things here, it means I would have to read through all your posts of useful junk that are espoused in books and youtube videos of things which HAVE to be followed, because the markets are black and white, there is right or wrong, and you are always right.  

Everything works yet everything doesn't, glad new members can decide for themselves as there is much more information available now.  A simple example, I would rather see a level being defended and refreshed in DOM, with a 1 tick stop placement, than use a number from a fibonacci sequence or analyse each candle of volume for some hidden message in a bottle.

But you have spent as much time as anyone studying DOM and laugh at those who analyse it, as according to you, it is useless and there is no edge in it, right?  Or have you changed your mind?  I'm still waiting for you to take over the SPI, perhaps while your at it, you can teach the Europeans how to trade Bund, Bobble, DAX, S&P?  

Here is one for you, why has DOM had so little air time on public forums?  Because most retail traders never had access to level 2 data, it was nearly ALL done through platforms like TT by professionals and before that, the guys with the biggest edge were the locals at the Open Outcry who had a far superior advantage from ex floor traders I speak too, ones who would have stood next to Radge in his day at the exchange.  Now, there are cheaper alternatives, which go as cheap and affordable to the retailer as IB or cheaper but still relatively expensive like GL.  

I for one, am GLAD AS HELL THAT THE AVERAGE RETAIL TRADER CAN SEE WHAT PROFESSIONALS DO NOW, LEVELLING THE PLAYING FIELD.  Perhaps you should really take a look if you are really trying to advance your trading. 

If taking a look at some DOM set-ups and how to incorporate this into your trading is useless in comparison to your EW algorithm from your standard retail provider or your analysis of every bar of volume, then someone else can decide that for themselves, taking into account which one moves the global volume and some of the names in the trading world who actually trade off DOM.  Guys who I could only ever aspire to being able to trade like, but at least I KNOW I am on the right path, the most important element IMVHO to taking your trading to it's maximum potential.


----------



## Cartman (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> So I guess you'd agree then that 5 X Nett worth would be lunacy?
> 
> Yet 1000s do it when buying a home.
> 1000s do it when controlling Futures contracts.
> Probably Millions do it when trading margin accounts.




u know as well as anyone Tech that its the risk relative to the N/W per trade that is important ---- leverage is a double edged sword ----- we all try and stay away from the sharp side   

buying a property is a different kettle of fish altogether   ------- everybody over leverages to buy property --- a) cause its percieved to be a safer investment and b) cause the downside even in a catastophic scenario is 'relatively" not that bad ---- some people who have been stung may argue against that point  !!  




tech/a said:


> Those who understand how to effectively use Leverage and the power of Compounding are those who float to the top.
> 
> Not all succeed but show me a group of successful investors and I'm sure you'll find many who use both.




no arguments from me on that !!


ps Mirc --- as always --- appreciate yr input (above posts) from someone who is actually at the coal face ------  good stuff ----


pps  irrespective of whether You or Tech or I or TH or anyone else agrees or not --- i agree that this forum has actually benefited from the differences of opinion displayed over recent times ------- and i both thank and applaud those willing to add their 2 bobs worth, right or wrong -- left or right ----- i consider myself a 'new chum' in the trading game, and i am happy to learn from anyone generous enuff to post their views ----


----------



## tech/a (29 March 2009)

MRc

I have no interest in Reading DOM.

I'm happy with my own trading results.
I dont wish to emulate even the most successful DOM traders.
There are some here who want to take your path and others who feel as I do.

For those I post.


----------



## BBand (29 March 2009)

Hi MRC & Co

Like your posts

Have a look at www.trade2win.com. This is a well run friendly forum with plenty of knowledgable contributers, right up your street.

hope your dream comes true


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## Boggo (29 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Its not what it used to be and fast becoming another HotCopper.




I directed a colleague to this site a few weeks ago, his comment after reading a few of the threads in question was along similiar lines... a pity really.



Cartman said:


> i agree that this forum has actually benefited from the differences of opinion displayed over recent times ------- and i both thank and applaud those willing to add their 2 bobs worth, right or wrong -- left or right ----- i consider myself a 'new chum' in the trading game, and i am happy to learn from anyone generous enuff to post their views ----




Maybe if you just shut up you might learn something, even learning diplomacy would be a start.

As a 'new chum' you have had an enormous effect on this board, unfortunately it has been to the detriment of a board that was second to none.

In the short time you have been here your negative smart **** condescending attitude seems to have brought out the worst in a few others who now think it acceptable to behave like fruit bats, ie. when you have had your fill then piss on what you can't eat so that it is spoiled for everyone else.

Disappointing shame really that it has been allowed to degenerate.


----------



## CanOz (29 March 2009)

When you guys stop exchanging blows, can we discuss what is the best recorded profitable trading plan with the worst win/loss rate?

Example, 30% or less W/L rate is pretty bad, but yet can still be profitable? I 've got data from Nick of 33% Wins and still profitable but what is the worst you have ever heard? Or it could be interpreted as the best too!

Cheers,


CanOz

PS, drop the crap guys, you are all really making fools of yourselves.


----------



## Cartman (29 March 2009)

Boggo said:


> I directed a colleague to this site a few weeks ago, his comment after reading a few of the threads in question was along similiar lines... a pity really.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nice to meet u too "Bog" (ive left the "go" off for obvious reasons ) ---- would u care to elaborate on how ive 
a) been a smart @rse
b) been condescending 
c) how ive brought the worst out in others

oh --- and just for the fun of it --- where any of my posts may in fact show less diplomacy than the post u just made !!!  ----- 

care to enlighten me "Bog" ------ ?? ------ 

ps if my post gets wiped and yours doesnt --- ill be p#ssed off


----------



## Cartman (29 March 2009)

CanOz said:


> When you guys stop exchanging blows, can we discuss what is the best recorded profitable trading plan with the worst win/loss rate?
> 
> Example, 30% or less W/L rate is pretty bad, but yet can still be profitable? I 've got data from Nick of 33% Wins and still profitable but what is the worst you have ever heard? Or it could be interpreted as the best too!
> 
> ...




no offence at u Can cause u r a top fella ----- there were no blows thrown on this thread at all til Bog stuck his bib in --------- 

please tell me where there was any problems on this thread till then??? ---- anyone???? -----   im all ears !!!!


----------



## MRC & Co (29 March 2009)

I'm not sure where the degeneration is?  A few questioned EW in that thread (including a GREAT trader such as Frank D), and this thread which if you don't want to read, you don't have to come in.  Though, EW has always been a contentious issue for some reason or other, so best to leave it alone, which I have well and truly done now.  

I see far more insight on this site now-days, far more push to be a maverick, guys like stormin in the FOREX area with a very unusual system, the pairs trading journal with a great, outside the box methodology, Frank D moving around the boards with some great things to think about, and TH even posting individual trades and DOM snapshots (all these 'magical' methods that I remember guys several months ago BEGGING to get their hands upon).  

Cartman is condescending, is that a joke?  

Nun, agree with what you have said.  

Thx BBand.  

Good luck in the trading all.


----------



## Cartman (29 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> I'm not sure where the degeneration is?  A few questioned EW in that thread (including a GREAT trader such as Frank D), and this thread which if you don't want to read, you don't have to come in.  Though, EW has always been a contentious issue for some reason or other, so best to leave it alone, which I have well and truly done now.
> 
> I see far more insight on this site now-days, far more push to be a maverick, guys like stormin in the FOREX area with a very unusual system, the pairs trading journal with a great, outside the box methodology, Frank D moving around the boards with some great things to think about, and TH even posting individual trades and DOM snapshots (all these 'magical' methods that I remember guys several months ago BEGGING to get their hands upon).
> 
> ...




well said Mirc ----

i think Bog took offence to the fact that i dared question Nick on the E/W thread ------ i have since stayed away from both those threads as a sign of respect --- as i said i would --- 

seriously Boggo ----- i really dont understand yr gripe with my personality ---- i question stuff --- nothing more nothing less ---- if u find my sense of humour irreverent i dont apologise for that cause that is my SOH --- if u think ive debased ASF to the point of retardation --- i'll happily leave if instructed by the Mods ----- (get the petition started !!)

people question motives and methodologies all the time ---- its called progress ---and it leads to learning, whether u see it that way or not ---

Tech was gracious enuff to post in here (with some reservation initially), and even though we may have not solved any particular issues (and even if we disagree), i think there was still some substance in the sum total of the posts ----

U obviously dont see it that way -- which is fine -- but fair dinkum --- to tell someone to p#iss on what they dont eat so they spoil it for everyone else is basically pretty petty stuff ----- 

considering im supposedly the smart @rse condescending one around here --- yr post is doing a fine job of following in my footsteps ---- i spose u'll blame me for your lack of decorum as well ---- after all someone else is always to blame, right !! --------

i trust that the Mods will not delete any of these posts cause there is nothing that shouldnt be noted here.



since Boggo is into Latin ---------- alenda lux ubi orta libertas


----------



## nunthewiser (29 March 2009)

ok totally OFF TOPIC here as gunna mention a stock 

now if anyone would be so kind as to post a ONE year chart on OGC, one  may get an insight into why this has caught my eye as a POSITION trade .. not a skim , not a scalp .

as one can see that it has formed a rather intresting long term pattern but the reason it has caught my eye and hit my prospective radar is because of where it currently sits , if one was to trade the way i often do this too can be a LOW%LOSS on stoploss point .. if the trade breaks south ........ one using other analisis may take the more conservative aproach and maybe wait until a confirmed break . but be warned i have seen many traders use this way ONLY to be stopped out as the stock has made a jump over breakpoint and then dip to retest the previous resistance .

each to there own , couldnt care less how anyone trades just dont tell me your way is the right way  when my way works for me just fine

oh yeah if one is following the volumes , one may note with intrest at how it looks around the PERCEIVED "cup and handle pattern forming ... again i dare say there is 58 different names for this pattern and use the one that makes you feel special 

This stock is on VERY close watch as a position entry shortly for me 


LOL im not one for explaining my trades or actions so this is kinda new to me , im a "watch this sucka" kinda guy and keep my thoughts on entrys / reasons/ strategys to myself as personally think that one should make up there own mind on what they look at in front of them

hope that was intelligeble to the more sophisticated and hip swinging traders out there

a nun


----------



## Cartman (30 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> ok totally OFF TOPIC here as gunna mention a stock
> 
> now if anyone would be so kind as to post a ONE year chart on OGC, one  may get an insight into why this has caught my eye as a POSITION trade .. not a skim , not a scalp .
> 
> ...




nothing is off topic on this thread Nun ---- go yr hardest ---


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

thanks for chart ...lot more pretty colours on your one compared to mine 

cheers


----------



## CanOz (30 March 2009)

Here you go Nun.

Nice triangle.

Cheers,


CanOz


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

thanks canoz


----------



## Bobby (30 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> please tell me where there was any problems on this thread till then??? ---- anyone???? -----   im all ears !!!!




I like this thread   , you have nothing to worry about Cartman .


----------



## Cartman (30 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> I like this thread   , you have nothing to worry about Cartman .




i hope yr right Bob ---- i dont want to be sent back to the Clinic !!


----------



## Bobby (30 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> i hope yr right Bob ---- i dont want to be sent back to the Clinic !!




 Don't worry you'll be fine after the operation


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

cmon now boys stop messing this thread up with all this off topic chit chat 

someone might complain soon


----------



## glenn_r (30 March 2009)

Boggo said:


> I directed a colleague to this site a few weeks ago, his comment after reading a few of the threads in question was along similiar lines... a pity really.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'll second that motion Boggo and add that I haven't seen one constructive post from these Galah's, just unsubstantiated BS.


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

glenn_r said:


> I'll second that motion Boggo and add that I haven't seen one constructive post from these Galah's, just unsubstantiated BS.





please define who you are calling "galahs" 

or is it everyone in this thread ?

if you would be so kind


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

glenn_r said:


> I'll second that motion Boggo and add that I haven't seen one constructive post from these Galah's, just unsubstantiated BS.




um ..... thanks for that constructive post


----------



## MRC & Co (30 March 2009)

glenn_r said:


> I'll second that motion Boggo and add that I haven't seen one constructive post from these Galah's, just unsubstantiated BS.




Did you read my posts?  Is what I said BS and unsubstantiated?  Maybe you should go do some research or try trade for yourself.  It's the follwers that pizz me off to no end and you are one of them!


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

Long Gold anyone ?


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

hahahahahah please note time of previous post  


if that wasnt constructive i dunno what is


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

ok seems it wasnt so constructive after all so far . but hey beats bein a galah anyday


----------



## CanOz (30 March 2009)

Global indices are selling off, must be time to set a few short trades for the US tonight hey?

Cheers,


CanOz


----------



## James Austin (30 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> . . . . I would rather see a level being defended and refreshed in DOM, with a 1 tick stop placement,





hello MRC,

i like your enthusiasm for what you do, a necessity for any who aspire high.

a question for you re DOM.

i used DOM when share trading with some success, but dont use it index trading.

how do you account for the all the volume not visible in the queue, such as at market orders yet to be executed? is this a largish portion of the volume, never reaching the DOM queue? does this unseen volume negatively influence your DOM strategies?

thanks
James.


----------



## Cartman (30 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Did you read my posts?  Is what I said BS and unsubstantiated?  Maybe you should go do some research or try trade for yourself.  It's the follwers that pizz me off to no end and you are one of them!





 Mirc --- to be fair --- i dont think Glenn was referring to u as part of the "Galah" tribe --- U my friend r highly regarded around here by all --- and if anyone does not regard u highly, more fool them !!!

i think his pretty p#ss poor attack was directed more at myself and Nun --- maybe poor old Bob has gotten himself wrapped up in a 'bad team' as well --- although i think Bob can handle himself just fine  --------- 

the nay sayers seem to be predominantly disgruntled E/W's from what i see !! ------- im almost over all the BS myself  --------- funny how my posts are seen as disruptive/hot copper like/ full of crap etc etc ----  i assume these people dont actually read what i write or give my opinion any consideration for content ????  ----- 

its called "narrow mindedness" --- do i care?? --- 

well actually i do !!!  --- cause i like to be good to people and help wherever i can (ask some of the poor punters on the Bris Connections thread !!) --- irrespective of the perception of the narrow minded,  i like to believe true sentiment shows through ----- 

if i am precieved as a sh#t kicker, then so be it ----- i sleep well at night --- (well actually i dont ---- but that is another story !!! ---  and not related to my relations with my fellow man, or people on this forum !!)

i just have a strange sense of humour --- and like to purvey that in my postings (as does Nun) --- those who dont understand our SOH are poorer for the lack of appreciation imo ----- if u dont like our SOH --- bad luck i guess ----- we probably dont like yr *lack of it*  -----  cheers Glenn and Boggo and any others who see fit to judge others on 'superficial' unimportant crap such as Elliott Wave theory ----- 

my advice to u guys -- have a good long hard look at what is driving yr life, and why u do what u do and judge others the way u do ---- life is short (and believe me i speak with experience in that regard !!) ----- the big picture is a *lot bigger than u or I *---- i like to think that people like Nun and i are actually adding a perspective to punters lives that they may have otherwise missed --- 

then again --- i may be just a dreamer, and my appreciation of the finer qualities of human nature may just be a total misconception on my behalf ------ 

in that sense, i accept the ridicule from u guys, cause u r products of yr own environment the same way i am -------- the only difference is --- i choose to 'explore' alternative views and perceptions ---------- i actually consider myself fortunate to be judged by u -- that means my pov *may* actually  be worth something --- (although i doubt u will ever concede that )

ps debate welcome on any/all of the above if u feel it of any value

if not --- no problem ---


----------



## Trembling Hand (30 March 2009)

James Austin said:


> how do you account for the all the volume not visible in the queue, such as at market orders yet to be executed? is this a largish portion of the volume, never reaching the DOM queue? does this unseen volume negatively influence your DOM strategies?
> 
> thanks
> James.




James its exactly Half the volume. but it not something that you use like,

There are 100 total bids and 200 total asks so its going lower. Its the flow and the refreshing that you look for. Its who's printing bar closes, who's defending levels who's doing icebergs etc etc etc.

Its not what is sitting in there.


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> Mirc --- to be fair --- i dont think Glenn was referring to u as part of the "Galah" tribe --- U my friend r highly regarded around here by all --- and if anyone does not regard u highly, more fool them !!!
> 
> i think his pretty p#ss poor attack was directed more at myself and Nun --- maybe poor old Bob has gotten himself wrapped up in a 'bad team' as well --- although i think Bob can handle himself just fine  ---------
> 
> --






WTF!!!! NO WAY !!!  he cant have directed that "galah" attack at me man! 

must have been you and tech/a i reckon ......... 

i think the bird flu musta got him


----------



## Cartman (30 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> WTF!!!! NO WAY !!!  he cant have directed that "galah" attack at me man!
> 
> must have been you and tech/a i reckon .........
> 
> i think the bird flu musta got him




 --- sorry Nun ----- i think u may be a perceived  'bad guy' as well ---- 

but i bet yr nice to yr kidz eh??!!


----------



## tech/a (30 March 2009)

> must have been you and tech/a i reckon .........




Nah

Clearly I'm a Duck.
I focus is clearly the only Galah and Rosella--well hes a Rosella.
Boggo's a---actually what is Boggo?


----------



## Bobby (30 March 2009)

Hay Cartman ,
Did real good today ! Took a short early  (SPI) , felt it would keep falling so ignored the smaller chop just let it go till 4pm. 
At the same time traded the trend down with a double layer play for the whole day as well HeHe  
Did also use the colour scheme of todays live market activity indices to keep confirming direction , RED !


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

tech/a said:


> Nah
> 
> Clearly I'm a Duck.
> I focus is clearly the only Galah and Rosella--well hes a Rosella.
> Boggo's a---actually what is Boggo?




LOL i refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may incriminate me 

 have a great evening


----------



## glenn_r (30 March 2009)

Well it looks like the Galah's have answered their own questions (geez your a predictable bunch), tally ho guys I'll be off now to trade a few more a,b,c's, y'all have fun together now, just don't drop the soap.


----------



## Cartman (30 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> Hay Cartman ,
> Did real good today ! Took a short early  (SPI) , felt it would keep falling so ignored the smaller chop just let it go till 4pm.
> At the same time traded the trend down with a double layer play for the whole day as well HeHe
> Did also use the colour scheme of todays live market activity indices to keep confirming direction , RED !




onya Bob ---- not bad for a 'Galah'


----------



## Cartman (30 March 2009)

glenn_r said:


> Well it looks like the Galah's have answered their own questions (geez your a predictable bunch), tally ho guys I'll be off now to trade a few more a,b,c's, y'all have fun together now, just don't drop the soap.




 -- u r a funny man Glenn ---- well actually yr not --- but dont let that stop u posting here --- everybodies welcome on this thread ---

i find it interesting that in the last two days, i have been accused of being a sm@rt ****, condescending, undiplomatic, by Boggo ---- not to mention causing the tone of ASF to be degenerated into a "worse than HotCopper" AND bringing the WORST out in other posters -------- and now Glenn is insinuating we "babble thread" guys are not only Galahs, but we r potentially gay as well -- (not that i have anything against gay people ---- i have good friends who r gay !!) ---- 

so i just wonder, *who* is actually degenerating the tone of this place ??? ------- 

and u guys who r espousing yr own high moral grounds,---  perhaps should have a closer look at who is actually doing this forum good and who is doing it a disservice ---------- 

for eg -- the worst i have done around here is 

1)question the validity of a trading method (that would be E/W) -------- and 
2) question the age of a poster who appeared much older than he stated ----

hardly grounds for ridicule i would have thought ---------- but u holier than thou guys can call people like me all the names under the sun AND then accuse me of denigrating the Forum ------ interesting isnt it 

debate still welcome ---- i can take it !!!


----------



## MRC & Co (30 March 2009)

James Austin said:


> hello MRC,
> 
> i like your enthusiasm for what you do, a necessity for any who aspire high.
> 
> ...




Hi James,

As TH states, what crosses the spread is one of the most important things (that is what is hit at market).  Sometimes it can be as obvious, as big volume being hit at market, say, the bids hitting the asks, as long as the asks are not refreshing (and even more preferable if they are stacking the asks but these are thinning as price approaches the tick (price) level before the size), then it's probably pretty obvious that there is a big buyer in there, and nobody to sell enough to soak up those buyers.  That I believe, is simply 'reading the tape'.

This will then show up in volume and price movement, but that is more static and lagging, in comparison with simply viewing the DOM which is as live and least lag as can be seen.

Add in, don't buy the top of a big green candle:  BUT wait for a pullback in the DOM (will be seen within the candle, but may not be seen once the candle is actually printed).

OR

Don't buy an extended run, wait for a pullback on the charts (simply trying to time getting on a HL etc).  While doing this, note trend structure, i.e. if the HL has intersected the previous HH, then the trend is probably weak, but you will notice many HLs will intersect the previous HH (or swing high, or pivot high, whichever you wish to call it), by a few ticks.  

Working out which is which is the hard part, but each allow a relatively tight stop and watching DOM movements, such as asks being pulled, or bids refreshing, may allow you a more certain entry.


----------



## Cartman (30 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Hi James,
> 
> As TH states, what crosses the spread is one of the most important things (that is what is hit at market).
> Add in, don't buy the top of a big green candle:  BUT wait for a pullback in the DOM (will be seen within the candle, but may not be seen once the candle is actually printed).
> ...




more excellent info Mirc ---- hope the nay sayers are taking note !!!


----------



## MRC & Co (30 March 2009)

OR 

You can fade an extended run, knowing it will have to form a HL at some point, some may even average at this point (this is where you have to know when news is out, you would not do this on an a rate announcement or GDP figure).  Others if they are right, will put profit targets in a region below at a previous HH and a cut and reverse near that.

OR

Wait for a big level to be defended, refreshed preferably, or some size to lean on, and put your order infront of it.  Even better if the market reaches an extended point.  Perhaps even in a region Franks system would point to a reversal to take place if the two show confluence?


----------



## nomore4s (30 March 2009)

lol, you blokes crack me up.

Cartman don't take this the wrong way but f#%k your posts are hard to read sometimes.


----------



## Bobby (30 March 2009)

Cartman said:


> onya Bob ---- not bad for a 'Galah'




Thanks ,
Yep I'm in a good mood tonight , as for who's a Galah its not us !

Like to see bogo apoligize to you , no need for that sort of rhetoric :nono:

Glen_r  your avatar suits you , an appropriate choice   :


----------



## MRC & Co (30 March 2009)

Just one quick note on DOM, it does not just mean what is in the depth of market (which is what is sounds).

It is watching level 2 data, which shows you orders being pulled (can be important if all of a sudden a big level being defended with big size, is pulled, first to notice and execute the break of that level will be the biggest winner), or orders being pulled as price approaches.  I.e.  the 2nd level of DOM volume thinning once the 1st level is nearly finished being chewed through, meaning all the depth in the 2nd to 5th levels are probably just spoofs and will not act as resistance.  Other times, big orders in a row will be real and act as resistance, but if the seller is big enough, they may just chrew through the size, which moves onto my next point:

It's watching what volume crosses the spread, or who is refreshing, or who is pulling an order and trying to get a *feel* for who is stronger.  

Little games are played, like the guy hitting the ask may just stop, and pull his orders from the bid, hoping the sellers come down to sell so he can get better fills, before he will start buying it up again.  

Many many little things like this, which then have to be added with things on the chart, as I alluded to in my earlier posts.  

TH may have more to add on this, I'm off, all the best with the trading to all us useless galahs and irritants to the great traders that grace us with their omnipotent presence


----------



## Cartman (30 March 2009)

nomore4s said:


> lol, you blokes crack me up.
> 
> Cartman don't take this the wrong way but f#%k your posts are hard to read sometimes.





 ----- thats cause i dont know what im talking about !!   lol ---- 

ps the only thing i take the wrong way is a one way street !! --- everything else i digest and respond as seems necessary 

would it help if i typed words in full instead of abbreviating ??  

ie your instead of yr --- are instead of r  ----   you instead of u etc ..??

im happy to do that if it would be better ??  (might take me a few more minutes per post though --- not  a great typist


----------



## CanOz (30 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Just one quick note on DOM, it does not just mean what is in the depth of market (which is what is sounds).
> 
> It is watching level 2 data, which shows you orders being pulled (can be important if all of a sudden a big level being defended with big size, is pulled, first to notice and execute the break of that level will be the biggest winner), or orders being pulled as price approaches.  I.e.  the 2nd level of DOM volume thinning once the 1st level is nearly finished being chewed through, meaning all the depth in the 2nd to 5th levels are probably just spoofs and will not act as resistance.  Other times, big orders in a row will be real and act as resistance, but if the seller is big enough, they may just chrew through the size, which moves onto my next point:
> 
> ...




Probably been said before somewhere Mr.C but if i wanted to start and watch the DOM (booktrader), is it best to watch this and a live 5 minute chart of the SPI at the same time and see how activity reacts to levels on the charts such as S&R from Pivots, congestion patterns etc.?

Cheers,


CanOz


----------



## nomore4s (30 March 2009)

no its not the abb, its more the format you use


----------



## Cartman (30 March 2009)

Bobby said:


> Thanks ,
> 
> Like to see bogo apoligize to you , no need for that sort of rhetoric :nono:




nah its fine --- i certainly dont expect anything like an apology from Boggo ---- no hard feelings from me ---- but if someone throws crap, you cant just lay back and lie in it can ya ---- ya gotta share it around 


hey Mirc --- more good stuff above ---thank you for the input ---- you have certainly raised the tone of this thread 


NM4's ---- format ?? what am i -- a hard drive!! lol --    i'll see what i can do to improve; point taken; cheers.


----------



## MRC & Co (30 March 2009)

CanOz said:


> Probably been said before somewhere Mr.C but if i wanted to start and watch the DOM (booktrader), is it best to watch this and a live 5 minute chart of the SPI at the same time and see how activity reacts to levels on the charts such as S&R from Pivots, congestion patterns etc.?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...




Absolutely, I believe TH watches DOM more at big levels, I watch DOM anytime regardless for order flow. 

S&R from any levels, a pivot, the previous daily high or low, a level on a 30 minute chart, a large round figure (the following chart shows a level on a 60 minute chart (as seen with the two false breaks of it which mean big subsequent moves) and a large round figure), this level being 800 on the S&P, which relates to your previous question, I would watch DOM around this level, look for the asks refreshing if we reach it, or some big orders coming in to quickly thump the price down if it tries to push up through it.


----------



## nunthewiser (30 March 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> Long Gold anyone ?






nunthewiser said:


> ok seems it wasnt so constructive after all so far . but hey beats bein a galah anyday




 Hi , i am nunthewiser and a chronic gambler ,

as one can see my call earlier was way off the mark re long gold ,But i have come to grips with my call and have matured as a trader .


----------



## MRC & Co (30 March 2009)

Were you watching DOM Can?

79850s on S&P may have been an iceberg or size........wasn't watching, but potentially an opportunity where you could have recognised a resistance in that instance through DOM without even having it on a chart yet.  Could have tested that level far more than the 5 times you get to see by watching a 5 minute chart or even a 1 minute chart for that matter.  Could have taken flicks off it with a 1 tick stop..........

Just one more way DOM can be useful and a way in which you can take advantage of little levels like that with tiny profit targets and tiny stops on a leveraged instrument.........

That's all my tips for now.  

GL.


----------



## Bobby (30 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Were you watching DOM Can?
> 
> 79850s on S&P may have been an iceberg or size........wasn't watching, but potentially an opportunity where you could have recognised a resistance in that instance through DOM without even having it on a chart yet.  Could have tested that level far more than the 5 times you get to see by watching a 5 minute chart or even a 1 minute chart for that matter.  Could have taken flicks off it with a 1 tick stop..........
> 
> ...




That was a very good post MRC , like your opinion on trading ( SPI ) by following what the  physical is doing  ?   Yep different time frame lag I know but always self correcting it seems for those of us that don't place stops ...


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## CanOz (31 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Were you watching DOM Can?
> 
> 79850s on S&P may have been an iceberg or size........wasn't watching, but potentially an opportunity where you could have recognised a resistance in that instance through DOM without even having it on a chart yet.  Could have tested that level far more than the 5 times you get to see by watching a 5 minute chart or even a 1 minute chart for that matter.  Could have taken flicks off it with a 1 tick stop..........
> 
> ...




Sorry mate, you lost me, i had a phone call when the S&P topped out and rolled out of that channel. Anyway, thanks for the posts Mr.C

CanOz


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## CanOz (31 March 2009)

That gap fill this morning looked like a good shorting opp, then a drive down through the "big" number and a test of the pivot, good place to exit? Maybe watch the DOM for some support and a drive up off the pivot? If there is a failure there then maybe a pivot break after lunch?

Cheers,


CanOz
Sorry for the thread high jack Cartmen.


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## BBand (31 March 2009)

Great thread guys!!

Good for the nonconformists, they can hopefully express an opinion and have less chance of being bullied just because they have different beliefs than the crowd, and can think for themselves

One of the main things that I have learned from you, and which I have applied successfully to my trading, is the importance of exiting a trade if there is no follow through from the entry, without having to wait for the stop loss to be hit

i.e. *The early part of a trade is the most dangerous.*

I am an EOD trader


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## Cartman (31 March 2009)

CanOz said:


> CanOz
> Sorry for the thread high jack Cart*men*.





Firstly, Cana,  there is only *One* of me !!  (i hear a few Hail Mary's from afar )  lol --- 

M8, we Gay, Galah Fruit Bat types are more than happy to have the likes of you around here posting whatever and whenever you like --- 

you will no doubt raise the tone of the thread several levels !!  It currently sits at minus eight;  i have a stop loss set at minus eleven, and will *take profits at break even *  



BBand said:


> Great thread guys!!
> 
> Good for the nonconformists, they can hopefully express an opinion and have less chance of being bullied just because they have different beliefs than the crowd, and can think for themselves




g'day BB. glad something positive has come out of all our babbling !!

Agree, all opinions have merit, and all differences of opinion that create constructive debate have merit ---- 

i had merit once but the Doc gave me some antibiotics; cleared it up in no time !!      Cheers


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## Trembling Hand (31 March 2009)

CanOz said:


> Sorry for the thread high jack *Cartmen*.




I think they were the name given to the men that came around early each morning dragging carts down the blue stone back alleys emptying the sh!it filled buckets from dunnies??

I could be mistaken


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## tech/a (31 March 2009)

> and will *take profits *at break even




Genius!!


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## Cartman (31 March 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> I think they were the name given to the men that came around early each morning dragging carts down the blue stone back alleys emptying the sh!it filled buckets from dunnies??
> 
> I could be mistaken




U know my family !!   




tech/a said:


> Genius!!




haha ---- well spotted Tech ----


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## Wysiwyg (31 March 2009)

Did they use mules in those days?


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## CanOz (31 March 2009)

Sorry Cartman, i actually noticed it too, and i did a lazy and said, stuff it....thats bad i know.

Great day with some screen time today, is there a better thread to learn about this scalping stuff? I'm still going through the nothing to something thread.

3600 got defended pretty good!

Cheers,


CanOz


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## MRC & Co (31 March 2009)

Bobby, I would follow cash, but don't give it too much weight, important cash levels and the price movement around those levels are key.  I personally find you get better keys through this, than through levels on the futures.

Can, I don't think there is much on the net on this scalping stuff (don't get confused with that either, just because you scalp, doesn't mean you can't run positions if you have conviction), I've searched multiple forums, but there isn't really much on it, probably due to the new nature of level 2 data to retailers for the first time and quick enough execution to actually react to that (IB).  TH posted a couple videos in the SPI thread about how size attracts size and one where you can clearly see a price level being defended (that was 3300 I believe).  

I reckon screentime is the key with it at first (still doing mine).  Just relating the DOM to levels on the chart and the actions and reactions.  DOM just provides a crystal clear breakdown of all the underlying moves actually happening on the chart.


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## Bobby (31 March 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Bobby, I would follow cash, but don't give it too much weight, important cash levels and the price movement around those levels are key.  I personally find you get better keys through this, than through levels on the futures.
> 
> .




Thanks MRC for the above  
The only thing that bugs me is that although I constantly watch the cash to confirm a trade setup ' I'm being beaten by 3 or 4 seconds as price moves away , its frustrating ..


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## It's Snake Pliskin (1 April 2009)

MRC & Co said:


> Bobby, I would follow cash, but don't give it too much weight, important cash levels and the price movement around those levels are key.  I personally find you get better keys through this, than through levels on the futures.
> 
> Can, I don't think there is much on the net on this scalping stuff (don't get confused with that either, just because you scalp, doesn't mean you can't run positions if you have conviction), I've searched multiple forums, but there isn't really much on it, probably due to the new nature of level 2 data to retailers for the first time and quick enough execution to actually react to that (IB).  TH posted a couple videos in the SPI thread about how size attracts size and one where you can clearly see a price level being defended (that was 3300 I believe).
> 
> I reckon screentime is the key with it at first (still doing mine).  Just relating the DOM to levels on the chart and the actions and reactions.  DOM just provides a crystal clear breakdown of all the underlying moves actually happening on the chart.




MRC,

I tend not to read every written word due to time impracticalities, but is the Condom (couldn't resist) an intraday way of trading or can it be a daily way? I know nothing of it and I may be inept in my daily approach but I will listen to what is displayed. 

Cheers.


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## Trembling Hand (1 April 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> MRC,
> 
> I tend not to read every written word due to time impracticalities, but is the Condom (couldn't resist) an intraday way of trading or can it be a daily way? I know nothing of it and I may be inept in my daily approach but I will listen to what is displayed.
> 
> Cheers.



Nope intra. very short term.


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## CanOz (1 April 2009)

TH, have you got a link to the vids you posted a while back, i searched last night with no luck...interesting threads about though.

Later when your not working is fine 

Cheers,


CanOz

PS, WTF was that that just went though!!


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## Trembling Hand (1 April 2009)

CanOz said:


> TH, have you got a link to the vids you posted a while back, i searched last night with no luck...interesting threads about though.
> 
> Later when your not working is fine
> 
> ...




From about here,

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=389646&postcount=2822

GM announcement was all that movements on futs & FX


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## It's Snake Pliskin (1 April 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Nope intra. very short term.




TH that was easy to read and understand. Thanks for the clarity. My study has been made easier and that I feel good about. 
Cheers..


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## MRC & Co (1 April 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> GM announcement was all that movements on futs & FX




Tankan, followed by that GM announcement, followed by a farkup and the statement being pulled.

Who said not to trade news?


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## nunthewiser (2 April 2009)

long gold? tight stop @ 92650


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## nunthewiser (2 April 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> long gold? tight stop @ 92650





LOL bleedin galah


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## GumbyLearner (2 April 2009)

Cartman can solve the financial crisis.

If not, 

**** off Cartman!


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## Cartman (2 April 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> LOL bleedin galah




i reckon u were a bit hard done by there Nun ---- looked like a fairly regular retrace with a double bottom at yr entry ---- shaped up ok then whammo --- thanks for showing up !!!!   Cant do much about those.




GumbyLearner said:


> Cartman can solve the financial crisis.
> 
> If not,
> 
> **** off Cartman!




U seem a little tense Gumby --- anything we can help u with?

ps i cant even solve the weekend crossword -- i go ok on the big words, but i have trouble with those four letter ones !!


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## nunthewiser (2 April 2009)

Cartman said:


> i reckon u were a bit hard done by there Nun ---- looked like a fairly regular retrace with a double bottom at yr entry ---- shaped up ok then whammo --- thanks for showing up !!!!   Cant do much about those.





ya get that ........... got revenge on the switch so alls well in funkytown 

looking at another quick long right now tho stop 91920area


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## nunthewiser (2 April 2009)

still in


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## GumbyLearner (2 April 2009)

Cartman said:


> i reckon u were a bit hard done by there Nun ---- looked like a fairly regular retrace with a double bottom at yr entry ---- shaped up ok then whammo --- thanks for showing up !!!!   Cant do much about those.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Cartman

Could you help me with something?

You are a blob and there is nothing wrong with that.

But :

I would like to know what your opinion is of industrial metals eg.copper,zinc,tin,silver,iron ore etc.. over the next 12 months.

Cheers for the thread man..

What's your opinion?


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## Cartman (2 April 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> Cartman
> 
> Could you help me with something?
> 
> ...




U want that from a technical or a fundamental point of view??


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## Cartman (2 April 2009)

GumbyLearner said:


> What's your opinion?




GL,  i assume you've gone to bed as most normal people should at this time of night ---- not sure why you would want my opinion on metals, let alone what they'll be doing 12 months from now. Geez i'll be happy to be here in 12 months!!

To be honest, i dont really care that much    i just follow squiggly lines on a chart ........ overly simplistic; yep, but i prefer it that way ---- 

my laymans opinion would be along the lines of. Considering we are sitting pretty close to 5 year  lows on most metals and we've been bouncing around those levels since late last year ... call me an optimist but i cant  see metal prices getting a whole lot worse. Governments dont like recessions to be too extended, and China isnt going on Holidays for ever so once the whole mess that the financial fat cats helped create gets half fixed, i think we'll actually see some improvement  ---- time frame (No idea) 

ps i dont think that analysis is gona save the world eh ? 

pps   Gold may be worth a punt on the dips  !!


ppps  Well done on the switch NUN !!


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## beamstas (2 April 2009)

Shorting metals cartman?



> call me an optimist but i cant see metal prices getting a whole lot worse.




Brad


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## Cartman (2 April 2009)

beamstas said:


> Shorting metals cartman?
> 
> 
> 
> Brad




nah ---- i'm long on  "heavy metal"


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## Cartman (19 April 2009)

Righteo ---- would appreciate some patience and input from you guys (girls are welcome too!! )

My original babble at the start of this thread brought me in contact with a cyber mate (who did a similar naughty thing to what I did a few years back),  and lost a squillion dollars mucking around with spec stocks while at the same time basically knowing bugga all about trading ---- His tale is fairly recent from what I gather ---- 

My quest is to *help this M8 if I can* ---- 

I have asked his permission to put his situation to the Forum, but have assured him that his anonymity will be a priority ---- I will contact him via PM for any questions he has relating to particular comments from members etc  ( if that is not an acceptable option, can mods please inform me of my legal protocols regarding giving “advice” via  PM’s) 

Enter you guys/gals --- Community effort required if possible ---- not just for this M8, but anyone who has suffered a similar situation.

Ps any “advice” I have or will give him is from a totally non specific/non financial perspective,  and broad outlook with respect to trading, but an emphasis on T/A in particular

For example ---- I am happy to give him my “bread and butter” trading setups if I think it will help ---- but my concern is that without proper grounding/training/study/whatever,  just showing someone chart patterns that work for me, may not be actually helpful to him due to our different psych/life/whatever  positions etc etc … 

The last thing I am is a  trading teacher  (although I have professionally “taught” other “things” in the past, but hopefully we can all come up with some useful information to help in his recovery stage ----   (ps   I’m not  a past school teacher, so no teacher bashing crap !!:horse 

*His current position*:

He works long hours (cause he lost a squillion dollars and has to)
He still wants to become a “proficient” trader  (make a few hunded $+  a week if possible)
He has little knowledge of T/A, but wants to learn
Has trouble “seeing” chart patterns but wants to learn
Is totally honest with himself about his stuffup (well done on that !)
Cant really afford a Mentor (not necessarily a bad thing imo)
Family life has suffered due to the stuffup
(probably lots more but its late at night and that’s enuff to start with ---- I need SOME sleep)

*What ive done/given him so far*:

Encouragement
Understanding (never known a good trader yet that didn’t have a “stuff up“ period !!)
Sympathy (on the family issue --- that is a crapper)

A couple of charts with various simple MA’s trying to initiate a sensory perception of what makes a “pattern” develop etc --- long way to go, but have to start simple

*What do I want from you guys:*

Simply put yourselves in the same position and offer helpful opinions (best not call it advice!!) as to how you would approach this situation from his point in time, so that he can “learn” how to turn it all around ---

As I say, I have offered much of my own experiences to him, but one persons experience is way too narrow a base to work from ---- 

Thank you gentlemen. I have no idea whether this will work/help, but if nothing else, I see it as an exercise of humanity which is generally far more rewarding than making a squillion dollars anytime ---

Cheers …Cart.

ps ---- start right at the basics please --- and *no judgmental stuff; no point in that*


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## tech/a (19 April 2009)

> as to how you would approach this situation from his point in time, so that he can “learn” how to turn it all around ---




Learn to trade.
That means to actually LEARN to trade.
Do the 10,000 hrs.
LEARN what it is that makes you succeed in trading.
Treat it like a degree or an apprenticeship.
Section it into subjects then do the hrs.

Then sit for the exam with a sim for a year or so.
No simple way just have to do it.

Gotta go I'm late for my "Brain surgery in 30 days" on line seminar.
They send me a certificate at the end you know!


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## nunthewiser (19 April 2009)

go buy him a big thick blank book and a pencil and tell him to trade with that until he can  look at his performance and learn from it , this only works if he dont try and kid himself and treats it like a serious trading position.


until such time it takes to find himself his own comfort zone/trading edge without bullsheeting to himself he would be better to continue working 


OR he could always sign up for my tipsheet and at least one of us will have a fat old time on the rest of his dosh


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## CanOz (19 April 2009)

Get him the audio version of Alexander Elder's Trading for a Living and tell him to listen to it over and over after he has a basic understanding of how to read charts etc.

There are many gem's in there and the fact that its audio means listening over and over is like a mentor in your ear all the time.

In the meantime, save up and pay off debt. Start trading some basic setups on paper to "get in" the markets.

Just a couple of things that i did after i lost a bunch.

Please give them my best Cartmen, we've all been there, he is not alone.

Cheers,


CanOz


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## Sean K (19 April 2009)

Tell your 'friend' to sign up and seek for himself.


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## beamstas (19 April 2009)

1) Do not let him loose with more money.. PAPER TRADE

2) Buy him a copy of Van Tharps book or Nick Radges book (or even better the seminar) Risk management is very important

3) Very important - Try and make him understand *WHY *he lost the money that he lost, no use trying to help him and then he does it all again. "The price went down and i thought it was going to go up" is *not *a valid reason as to why you lose money

Brad


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## Cartman (19 April 2009)

Just to clarify ----- He is already a member of ASF and he will no doubt be reading this thread -- i have only "met" him via contact thru PM's, so he is a friend who ive never met   (just like some of you guys  --- *"some"* being the operative word ...  lol....) 
His situation is unfortunate and struck a past chord  ---- offering some positive advice seems the least we can do ----- 

it was my suggestion to put the case to the forum cause i didnt want to bulldoze him with just my warped sense of trading   ----  plus being able to get advice from those around here without having to feel intimidated seemed a better alternative to me ---- if he decides its all a bit weird getting advice in the third person so to speak, ive told him to let me know and the mods can simply wipe the posts at his request 



CanOz said:


> Get him the audio version of Alexander Elder's Trading for a Living and tell him to listen to it over and over after he has a basic understanding of how to read charts etc.
> 
> There are many gem's in there and the fact that its audio means listening over and over is like a mentor in your ear all the time.
> 
> ...





Cana,  i think something along those lines is a great idea ---- he is looking for a foundation to base off at an affordable cost ---

All advice in the previous posts has been good and reinforces the kinds of stuff ive been mentioning to him --- Learn to trade by practicing in a low risk environment (paper/sim) --- no money down till its comfortable etc etc

Keep em coming please Gents ---- ie  important events/light bulb moments that changed your trading for the better; best advice you were ever given/ best book etc etc ----- anything that may be of benefit, no matter how insignificant it seems ---


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## Trembling Hand (19 April 2009)

Take a big break. A real big one.

*Spend what little spare time he has with the family and friends.*

Much damage is done on blow ups much like people who have suffered "other" types of trauma. Getting back on the horse is not the best answer when you are trying to come back from a blow up. Your brain has just been hard wired to perceiving the market as a threat rather than opportunity. 

Time and correct approach can fix this but not without finding balance in other parts of your life first. Family stuff needs to be centred first. money, markets and winning comes from the rest being right.


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## CanOz (19 April 2009)

TH, thats the best advice I've seen so far and i assumed he had taken a break. This is very true:



> Your brain has just been hard wired to perceiving the market as a threat rather than opportunity.




This is the element that makes you trade out of winners early when you've lost money and your in the recovery mode.

CanOz


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## johenmo (19 April 2009)

Lots of good advice.

From TH's post you can let him know there is *no hurry*, so he can watch Nick's Seminar DVD over and over again re money managment.

If you're not happy within, you won't be happy.

I'm no longer in a hurry.  Tks to listening/reading to things like the above.


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## MS+Tradesim (2 June 2009)

How is it in the cartman world these days?


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## nunthewiser (2 June 2009)

MS+Tradesim said:


> How is it in the cartman world these days?





i think he ran away with delta goodrem and helped spend the scuds last 50 bucks on a carton of crownies


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## Cartman (3 June 2009)

nunthewiser said:


> i think he ran away with delta goodrem and helped spend the scuds last 50 bucks on a carton of crownies




Actually i left her at the drive thru and just ran away with the crownies --- she wouldnt stop singing all the time; it was driving me crazy!!



MS+Tradesim said:


> How is it in the cartman world these days?





thank u for inquiring MS -- i have followed your religion thread with interest --- i have potentially strange views on that kind of stuff, but have declined to add my two bobs worth cause i only have one bob to spare ... and considering Bobs your uncle, i didnt think it fair to involve your relatives with my finances --- if you get where i've drifted 

my current quest is of a mathematical nature --- ie. What shape of the end of a line??

Assuming a point is circular ---- If a line is two points joined, that would make the end of a line circular in nature? Therefore if we measure a line from either the top or the bottom, it would be a slightly different length to measuring it from the centre ( at the outer most extremity of the circular end points) 

 ----  Follow up questions include ---- 

At what point (length) does a point become a line (when it changes shape from circular??) ..... 

At what thickness does a line become a shape??

As u can see MS, the world i live in is a troubled one !!   ---  hope ur well


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