# India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme



## Calliope (29 December 2012)

Two years GG started a thread on racism in India. Far more worrying is the treatment of unaccompanied women by male louts in a country where rape complaints are not taken seriously.



> AN Indian woman whose gang-rape on a bus in New Delhi sparked widespread street protests has died in Singapore after suffering severe organ failure.
> 
> Authorities in India have been preparing for the possibility her death could ignite more protests after riot police were deployed on the capital's streets in the wake of the attack amid mounting anger at the daily dangers women face.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...elhi-rape-victim/story-e6frg6so-1226544962045


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## CanOz (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*

For life of me i can't fathom what was going on in the heads of the perpetrators....:bad:

Where in their upbringing was it deemed acceptable to treat human beings this way?:frown:

Is this a religious thing? A class issue? 

CanOz


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## DB008 (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*

Crazy....





> Painted women protesting, not students: Abhijit Mukherjee
> 
> While many in India may see the protests in Delhi a sign of protest against the treatment of women in the country, President Pranab Mukherjee‘s son and MP Abhijeet Mukherjee claimed that the women participating in the protests were “pretty women who were dented and painted”.
> 
> ...




and another case....



> A 17-year-old Indian girl who was allegedly gang-raped killed herself after police pressured her to drop the case *and marry one of her attackers*, police and a relative said on Thursday.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/1030759/gang-rape-in-india-teen-victim-kills-herself


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## finnsk (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*

Remember what happened a few years ago with the Indian students here i Australia and all the political issues there was and protests in India, I think it puts it into perspective when you can treat your fellow country men/women like this whiteout being prosecuted


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*

I was quite surprised some years ago when India accused Australia of racism. 

This latest atrocity against a young woman, now dead, and her friend, affirms my belief that India has a long, long way to go to be within cooee of our advanced culture.

In India, you are judged by the lightness of your skin, your wealth, and your ability to shame, beat, work to death or rape and maim those weaker than you.

It is a chauvinistic culture and the Indian ambassador in Australia should hang his or her head in shame and apologise on behalf of his nation for this latest atrocity against women.

What a pack of tossers.

gg


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## Julia (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*

Remember the government's campaign against Tony Abbott, accusing him of misogyny?

How dare Gillard so misuse the word.

The unspeakable crime against this young woman gives the face to the reality of entrenched misogyny.

Along with, of course, India's exaggerated  class and caste system, the role of women in which is quite unimaginable to  us here.


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



Julia said:


> Remember the government's campaign against Tony Abbott, accusing him of misogyny?
> 
> How dare Gillard so misuse the word.
> 
> ...




+1

gg


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## jancha (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*

Long live Philogyny!!


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## pixel (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> I was quite surprised some years ago when India accused Australia of racism.




I don't believe this woman's mistreatment can justify self-righteous chest-beating.
Her rape and murder by a pack of thugs does not make Australia any more or less racist.

As to "tossers" and male chauvinists, they too exist in every society, including our own. India, with around 50-times our population, is entitled to 50-times as many. And if you consider that a stupid comparison, I agree it is. Just as stupid as comparing degrees of racism in countries with different histories.

Remember, before we condemn Indians as barbaric or backward: British rulers had ample opportunity to educate the population, teach them respect for their fellow men *and women*, and lead them out of the ancient Caste thinking. However, the British Class-orientation - think school ties, gentry vs servants - is quite a close relative to Indian castes. I would even contend that members of the Brahman caste have far more compassion for their lower-ranked compatriots than many members of the British "Landed Gentry" have for their poor. Ever read Dickens? Some may have tried to promote public education, but most pandered to the Nabobs and Rajahs; bribing them to keep the peasants uneducated and willing serfs. Mankind has still a long way to go to achieve real Humanity. Viewed on that scale, most countries are running neck-and-neck,


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



pixel said:


> I don't believe this woman's mistreatment can justify self-righteous chest-beating.
> Her rape and murder by a pack of thugs does not make Australia any more or less racist.
> 
> As to "tossers" and male chauvinists, they too exist in every society, including our own. India, with around 50-times our population, is entitled to 50-times as many. And if you consider that a stupid comparison, I agree it is. Just as stupid as comparing degrees of racism in countries with different histories.
> ...




It is a racist and misogynist culture, with little or no hope for movement or social improvement through hard work, skill or intelligence.

They deserve to have the media colonoscope beam shine deep in to their culture.

And they had the hide to accuse Australia of racism.

The Ambassador needs to be called in by Carr, to account for this unfortunate girl's torture and murder, as it is a not infrequent occurrence.

gg


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## Calliope (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



pixel said:


> I don't believe this woman's mistreatment can justify self-righteous chest-beating.
> Her rape and murder by a pack of thugs does not make Australia any more or less racist.




What a strange conclusion to reach.



> However, the British Class-orientation - think school ties, gentry vs servants - is quite a close relative to Indian castes. I would even contend that members of the Brahman caste have far more compassion for their lower-ranked compatriots than many members of the British "Landed Gentry" have for their poor



.  
A rape victim in Britain, whether rich or poor, would receive much more compassionate treatment and justice than a rape victim in India.



> Ever read Dickens?




 Has he written any good books *lately*?

P.S. I think you would be reasonably safe to walk around in your mini-skirt, unaccompanied, in Britain.



> The emergence of women in public "is accompanied by growing threats to their safety and security in states and  regions of our country." the prime minister said on Thursday. "We must reflect on this problem, which occurs in all states and regions




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/let-us-...-be-in-vain-20121229-2c064.html#ixzz2GQFUwnXn


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## pixel (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



Calliope said:


> What a strange conclusion to reach.
> 
> A rape victim in Britain, whether rich or poor, would receive much more compassionate treatment and justice than a rape victim in India.
> 
> P.S. I think you would be reasonably safe to walk around in your mini-skirt, unaccompanied, in Britain.




I am not excusing the rapists; I was criticizing the hypocrisy that GG's comments displayed. When Indian students are attacked in Australia, the resulting outrage was justified in both countries. Some have accused Australia as a racist country, which, if taken on the basis of a few attacks, is a dumb generalisation. But tarring an entire country and diverse culture with the same brush of generalisation, on the base of an individual incident, is equally objectionable. 
I know many Indians, who are working hard to improve the lives of their families and communities. On a statistical average, India may have a little further to go, but neither Australia nor Britain are "there yet".

As to the mini skirt, I personally would probably be safe, albeit looking ridiculous. But I wouldn't risk sending my 16yo granddaughter in a mini outfit through a dark alley in Richmond Parramatta, or Northbridge. No amount of compassion or judicial sympathy would compensate her for the likely consequences.


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## Calliope (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



pixel said:


> . Some have accused Australia as a racist country, which, if taken on the basis of a few attacks, is a dumb generalisation. But tarring an entire country and diverse culture with the same brush of generalisation,* on the base of an individual incident,* is equally objectionable.




"An individual incident".  The vast majority of crimes against women in India is rape. Your generalisations are objectionable.:bad:



> Rape in India has been described by Radha Kumar as one of India's most common crimes against women. In the 1980s, women's rights groups lobbied for marital rape to be declared unlawful, as until 1983, the criminal law (amendment) act stated that "sexual intercourse by a man with his own wife, the wife not being under fifteen years of age is not rape". Marital rape is now illegal in India but is still widespread. Official sources show that rape cases in India have doubled between 1990 and 2008.



 (Wikipedia)


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## So_Cynical (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*

Lets face it, India and the Sub continent in general is not a great place to be a woman, there are equality laws its just that the bulk of society ignore these laws and simply go on with life as normal as has been done for century's.

Female infanticide and female foeticide is still going on and will do for decades to come, widows cannot remarry and brides are expected to be virgins, sons get sent abroad to study while daughters stay home and get married....culture is a funny thing.


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*

India is a very poor country, whose elites are only interested in their own self preservation and progeny.

The lighter your skin colour and the richer you are, the better you fare.

The Indian Ambassador needs to be called to account for this lack of protection of this young couple.

Bob Carr needs to call the Ambassador in and sort him or her out, particularly after the slanders in recent times against against Australia.

A particularly good film I once saw illustrating the travails of the underclass in Indian is Bandit Queen : An overview of Phoolan Devi's life, a brave "untouchable", subjected to rape by her "betters". She won out in the end.

gg


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## pixel (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



So_Cynical said:


> Lets face it, India and the Sub continent in general is not a great place to be a woman, there are equality laws its just that the bulk of society ignore these laws and simply go on with life as normal as has been done for century's.
> 
> Female infanticide and female foeticide is still going on and will do for decades to come, widows cannot remarry and brides are expected to be virgins, sons get sent abroad to study while daughters stay home and get married....culture is a funny thing.




On all those issues we can agree, S_C;
It's a prehistoric mindset that persisted for thousands of years and is therefore hard to shake. 
Until recently, Western societies had the same patriarchal, paternalistic, patronising attitude. Just check the Ten Commandments - both in the OT and the not-so-old Charlton Heston movie.
Australia may be ahead of some countries by a few decades, maybe a century and a half? But that little advantage is no reason to be smug and pretend indignation when the shoe happens to be on the other foot.

GG, I wasn't aware that an Australian girl had been raped and murdered; if so, and only then, would Australian representatives have cause to cite the Indian ambassador and formally protest. As far as I know, no foreign diplomat has ever protested over rape, dispossession, and murder of Australian Indigenous people.

End of rant.


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## Calliope (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



pixel said:


> .
> Until recently, Western societies had the same patriarchal, paternalistic, patronising attitude. Just check the Ten Commandments - both in the OT and the not-so-old Charlton Heston movie.
> End of rant.




First of all you use Dickens to justify your excuses for Indian "culture" and now you use the Ten Commandments. Perhaps you should drag your thinking back to the 21st century.

You agree with So Cynical who thinks Indian culture "is a funny thing"

A culture which excuses or turns a blind eye to rape is an evil thing. *Not funny at all.*


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2012)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



Calliope said:


> First of all you use Dickens to justify your excuses for Indian "culture" and now you use the Ten Commandments. Perhaps you should drag your thinking back to the 21st century.
> 
> You agree with So Cynical who thinks Indian culture "is a funny thing"
> 
> A culture which excuses or turns a blind eye to rape is an evil thing. *Not funny at all.*




Agree totally.

Only problem is that these six neanderthals who abused and killed this poor lass, represent a groupthink in Indian society.

They are a sick mob.

Let us hope they can change and learn from this.

I have Indian mates who left because of this type of crap, or because they were too poor or too dark.

gg


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## banco (29 December 2012)

Least India has some redeeming qualities unlike Pakistan.


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2012)

banco said:


> Least India has some redeeming qualities unlike Pakistan.




And they are?

gg


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## banco (29 December 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> And they are?
> 
> gg




They've been a relatively successful democracy since independence, for a third world country they are not too bad with regards to civil rights and pockets of their economy (mainly the tech part) are looking pretty promising.


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2012)

Bob Carr's most recent comment on the Commonwealth, which includes India on his Thoughtlines blog.



> DECEMBER 20, 2012
> tags: Commonwealth Charter, Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM), democracy, human rights, Michael Kirby, rule of law
> Acting Prime Minister Wayne Swan and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Senator Bob Carr, today welcomed the adoption by Commonwealth leaders of the Charter for the Commonwealth, a key achievement for Australia during its term as Chair-in-Office of the Commonwealth (October 2011 to November 2013).
> 
> ...




I wonder how the poor girl's family who was raped and killed would feel about this 'eminent " Australian's comment on governance in India.

He needs to post an addendum. It may get him a weak wet handshake in New Delhi, but it is peculiarly insensitive in the week in which she was attacked.

Some do live in Qantas First Class too much.

gg

gg


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## Calliope (29 December 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> And they are?
> 
> gg




I suppose banco would say they are a democracy. A democracy designed to accommodate their "funny" culture.



> *In a democracy, government needs to connect with people*
> Published: Saturday, Dec 29, 2012, 10:26 IST
> By Ravi M Khanna | Agency: IANS
> 
> ...



 (my bolds)
Read more;
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_in-a-democracy-government-needs-to-connect-with-people_1782976


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## banco (29 December 2012)

As I said for a third world democracy they are not too bad.  If people had rushed into the streets in China (GG's favourite Asian country since Queensland's economy rides on its back)  like they did in India they would have got a lot more than water cannons and sticks.


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2012)

banco said:


> As I said for a third world democracy they are not too bad.  If people had rushed into the streets in China (GG's favourite Asian country since Queensland's economy rides on its back)  like they did in India they would have got a lot more than water cannons and sticks.




See my recent post on China

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9746&page=8&p=743409&viewfull=1#post743409

India is a similar "slave culture"

gg


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## Julia (29 December 2012)

pixel said:


> I don't believe this woman's mistreatment can justify self-righteous chest-beating.
> Her rape and murder by a pack of thugs does not make Australia any more or less racist.



What is the connection?  I can't see any.



> Remember, before we condemn Indians as barbaric or backward: British rulers had ample opportunity to educate the population, teach them respect for their fellow men *and women*, and lead them out of the ancient Caste thinking.



Pixel, you grasp at every opportunity to express how much you despise the British, to the point where one would have to wonder about some personal/historical grudge against them as a race.
I expect the British rule in India did indeed achieve much, despite your reluctance to concede this.



> However, the British Class-orientation - think school ties, gentry vs servants - is quite a close relative to Indian castes. I would even contend that members of the Brahman caste have far more compassion for their lower-ranked compatriots than many members of the British "Landed Gentry" have for their poor.



I don't think too many would agree with your contention here.



> Ever read Dickens?



Dickens???  We're now in the 21st century, aren't we?  


> Some may have tried to promote public education, but most pandered to the Nabobs and Rajahs; bribing them to keep the peasants uneducated and willing serfs. Mankind has still a long way to go to achieve real Humanity. Viewed on that scale, most countries are running neck-and-neck,



What?  That's truly an unreasonable statement, pixel, much as I dislike disagreeing with you.



Calliope said:


> A rape victim in Britain, whether rich or poor, would receive much more compassionate treatment and justice than a rape victim in India.



Perhaps let's not leap to judgement too soon.  There has been a huge outcry over this hideous event, in India and internationally.  The Indian police have announced that several people will be charged with murder.
Let's give them a chance to deliver justice.



banco said:


> They've been a relatively successful democracy since independence, for a third world country they are not too bad with regards to civil rights and pockets of their economy (mainly the tech part) are looking pretty promising.



Good Lord, banco, what sort of rose coloured glasses are you looking through?


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## Calliope (29 December 2012)

banco said:


> As I said for a third world democracy they are not too bad.  If people had rushed into the streets in China (GG's favourite Asian country since Queensland's economy rides on its back)  like they did in India they would have got a lot more than water cannons and sticks.




China does not pretend to be a democracy. Any country which treats its women as second class citizens is  hardly democratic. On their attitude to rape they are not dissimilar to China.


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## pixel (30 December 2012)

Julia said:


> Pixel, you grasp at every opportunity to express how much you despise the British, to the point where one would have to wonder about some personal/historical grudge against them as a race.
> I expect the British rule in India did indeed achieve much, despite your reluctance to concede this.




Julia,
one probably has to take a look "from the outside" in order to recognise light and shade more clearly.
I have been brought up in a school system that imparted the view that all humans have the same value, dignity, rights - and especially the right to be treated with respect. That general tenor was specifically "prescribed" by, among other Allies, the British and Americans, as a purpose-built curriculum for our education system. It has very much penetrated my thinking, and I am immensely appreciative of the humanistic education afforded to me. History has taught me how easy it is for one population group to feel superior to another.

Unfortunately, that education has also taught me to recognise with little difficulty bias based on race, gender, nationality, skin colour ... Unfortunately, I am then undiplomatic enough to raise a mirror and hold it in front of anyone who decries the splinter in the neighbour's eye while ignoring the log in their own. (Apologies if I didn't quite match the King James translation.)

True, we are living in the 21st century; but in order to assess the present, it is not only my opinion that one has to know the history that got us to where we are. As Heinlein put it, _a generation that ignores its history has no past -- and no future_. Therefore, when I refer to Dickens (and the 10 commandments), I do so because I believe they are relevant to understanding many of current attitudes of the "Ruling Class". Even today, much of politicians' rhetoric about equality, rights, tolerance is just that: rhetoric. When it comes to implementing all those lofty ideals, one quickly realises that Humanism is still mostly a varnish, reality airbrushed for publication in glossy magazines.

Claiming moral superiority of Australian thugs over Indian thugs - which I interpreted GG's initial comments as implying - is IMHO hypocritical. Our primary demons may not rape as many pretty girls, but little altar boys and wards of state won't care much about the difference.


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## bellenuit (30 December 2012)

pixel said:


> Unfortunately, I am then undiplomatic enough to raise a mirror and hold it in front of anyone who decries the splinter in the neighbour's eye while ignoring the log in their own.




Pixel. I couldn't disagree with you more.

Not only do Western Democracies (say those in Europe, Australia and the USA) NOT ignore the "log" in their own eyes, but they traumatise themselves over it, they chastise themselves over it and they go overboard to rectify it.

There are exceptions. But take Australia as an example. We take in boat people who have arrived in our shores by means that are illegal (though disputable under international law) . What do we do? We feed them, clothe them, give them facilities (e.g. internet) way beyond what they often have had in their own countries. We give them free legal avenues to challenge their denial of refugee status if that ends up being the case. If they had arrived in anything but a Western Democracy (with a few exceptions like Syrian refugees in Turkey), they would have been at best consigned to overflowing tents in some arid wasteland and given just subsistence means to survive.

I am so sick of people criticising our Western Civilisation and equating what we offer the world to what comes from everyone else.  

OK there are some racists in our society. There is as you say "bias based on race, gender, nationality, skin colour". Some skinheads will threaten or attack some Koreans in a train. A barman may not allow an Aborigine in his pub for no other reason than the man looks Aborigine. But how can you compare that to Christian neighbourhoods in Pakistan being burned to the ground because someone decreed that some burned pages of the Koran, maliciously placed in a mentally challenged teenage girl's satchel, were meant as an affront to Allah. How about a minibus in India with some Australian adults and children being attacked and burned killing all inside just because they were preaching Christianity.  

And for the skinheads, they will be prosecuted if found and convicted. The barman will also be prosecuted and heavily fined, even though the previous year he was heavily fined for serving drinks to Aborigines whom he allowed to drink more than they could take and ended up causing some crime in the area.

When you compare the Australian thugs to those in India, you might find that the end result of investigations into the crimes committed were that most were actually committed by Indian nationals. The baby who was found dead after going missing was apparently accidentally badly injured by an Indian friend of the family who panicked and drove and left the baby on the verge of a roadside outside Melbourne. The Indian man who was apparently set on fire beside his car following a racist attack, turned out to be an accidental self ignition when he attempting to set the car on fire for insurance purposes. Another Indian man knifed in what was also regarded as a racist attack, was subsequently found to have been knifed by an Indian friend. There were a few other incidents but I can't remember the detail. The only one that turned out to be blameable on a non-Indian Australian was an opportunistic attack on a fast food employee. There were a few minor racists incidents that were not attributable to Indians themselves, but they were no different to what one gets in any modern society. I thing what grates in the minds of all Australians following the eventual discovery of what happened in each of these cases, was the fact that the final verdicts went almost unreported in the Indian press, whereas the initial reports blaming "racist" Australia caused riots in the streets there.


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## Calliope (30 December 2012)

bellenuit said:


> Pixel. I couldn't disagree with you more.




Pixel is obviously trolling. No rational person could espouse the nonsense that she (he?) has posted here.


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## Calliope (30 December 2012)

Julia said:


> Perhaps let's not leap to judgement too soon.  There has been a huge outcry over this hideous event, in India and internationally.




If you mean judgement on India's rape culture...it has already been made.



> The target of the protesters’ anger seems to be India’s archaic sexual violence laws and a culture of impunity for offenders, with even authorities demonstrating a blase attitude toward rape. In the wake of the Dec. 16 incident, officials have been criticized for belittling rape victims, and the son of India’s president apologized after calling the protesters “highly dented and painted” women, who go “from discos to demonstrations,” the AP reported.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-rape-name-and-shame-database-could-backfire/


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## pixel (30 December 2012)

bellenuit said:


> Pixel. I couldn't disagree with you more.
> 
> Not only do Western Democracies (say those in Europe, Australia and the USA) NOT ignore the "log" in their own eyes, but they traumatise themselves over it, they chastise themselves over it and they go overboard to rectify it.




Hi Bellenuit;
thanks for underpinning your opinion with examples. Very valid examples, I hasten to add.
In any other context, I would agree with you, and if you read my comments on topics like illegal immigrants, live animal export, or crazy religion, you will find plenty of evidence.

What I find so objectionable in the context of this thread is the way some people took the opportunity to condemn another country. Hence my opening statement here:


> I don't believe this woman's mistreatment can justify self-righteous chest-beating.
> Her rape and murder by a pack of thugs does not make Australia any more or less racist.



My subsequent replies, especially to Julia, provide examples of bias in segments of Australian and, more so, British society. Apologies if that took the focus off-topic. 

btw, Julia, I do not "despise *the British*" if meant as a generalisation of "the British *people*". I don't judge a person for his or her beliefs and attitudes either. There is usually a reason in their history that explains, without excusing, what they think and do. However, I do hold some beliefs and attitudes dearer than others. Which is which will often depend on the context and available options, but two attitudes that consistently rank very low on my scale are smug self-righteousness and arguing by generalisation.

As to the log, I used the quote with the same purposeful exaggeration as the utterer of the original did. It does not imply a comparison of actual "cultures". I'd rather live in a reasonably "safe", preferably "affluent" suburb in a Westernised country than in Gaza City or near a Christian church in Islamabad. But that would only take us further off-topic, so I better leave it till a more suitable thread comes along.


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## burglar (30 December 2012)

pixel said:


> ... so I better leave it till a more suitable thread comes along.




Hi pixel,

I get where you're at!
Got it first time around!!:
I don't know why you felt the need to explain it over and over!

Glad to see you didn't rise to the hackneyed "she /(he)" trolling/counter-trolling mechanism!



But I don't much care. 

What happens on the other side of the Indian Ocean is out of my control.


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## Calliope (30 December 2012)

burglar said:


> But I don't much care.
> 
> What happens on the other side of the Indian Ocean is out of my control.




Unfortunately, unlike you, I can't  turn off caring with the press of a button just because something is outside my control. This obviously means you "don't much care" about practically everything.

I suppose in future you will post opinions only on those things you control.


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## burglar (30 December 2012)

Calliope said:


> ... This obviously means you "don't much care" about practically everything ...




Pretty much!


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## Julia (30 December 2012)

Calliope said:


> If you mean judgement on India's rape culture...it has already been made.



No.  I meant the fact that the offenders have been charged with murder.  We are yet to see the outcome.


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## burglar (30 December 2012)

Calliope said:


> ...I suppose in future you will post opinions only on those things you control.




Sounds like the missus. 
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, ... 
Just don't voice it in earshot!


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## Julia (30 December 2012)

pixel said:


> Julia,
> one probably has to take a look "from the outside" in order to recognise light and shade more clearly.
> I have been brought up in a school system that imparted the view that all humans have the same value, dignity, rights - and especially the right to be treated with respect. That general tenor was specifically "prescribed" by, among other Allies, the British and Americans, as a purpose-built curriculum for our education system. It has very much penetrated my thinking, and I am immensely appreciative of the humanistic education afforded to me. History has taught me how easy it is for one population group to feel superior to another.
> 
> Unfortunately, that education has also taught me to recognise with little difficulty bias based on race, gender, nationality, skin colour ... Unfortunately, I am then undiplomatic enough to raise a mirror and hold it in front of anyone who decries the splinter in the neighbour's eye while ignoring the log in their own. (Apologies if I didn't quite match the King James translation.)



A large number of words here, pixel, but I don't see anything that suggests your education was any different from that which most of us received, i.e. that all humans have equal value etc.  Nothing you say gives me any greater insight into your repeated quite vicious criticisms of all that's British across various threads.
However, it's your right to hold and express such dislike, even if it allows that such a loathing belies what you say you believe in.


bellenuit said:


> Pixel. I couldn't disagree with you more.
> 
> Not only do Western Democracies (say those in Europe, Australia and the USA) NOT ignore the "log" in their own eyes, but they traumatise themselves over it, they chastise themselves over it and they go overboard to rectify it.



Agree.  The level of self-flagellation especially by the Left in Western democracies is flourishing, nurtured by the groups of citizens who pride themselves on being sorry for someone.  Think, just as one example, the refugee advocates in this country who apparently couldn't care less about disadvantaged Australians, but who advocate living standards and privileges for people arriving here outside of UNHCR channels not offered to many of our own.
Think, also, of a similar group of people who are determined to resist efforts to encourage aborigines to take charge of their own lives, preferring always to regard them as perpetual victims.



> There are exceptions. But take Australia as an example. We take in boat people who have arrived in our shores by means that are illegal (though disputable under international law) . What do we do? We feed them, clothe them, give them facilities (e.g. internet) way beyond what they often have had in their own countries. We give them free legal avenues to challenge their denial of refugee status if that ends up being the case. If they had arrived in anything but a Western Democracy (with a few exceptions like Syrian refugees in Turkey), they would have been at best consigned to overflowing tents in some arid wasteland and given just subsistence means to survive.
> 
> I am so sick of people criticising our Western Civilisation and equating what we offer the world to what comes from everyone else.



+1 x 100.



> When you compare the Australian thugs to those in India, you might find that the end result of investigations into the crimes committed were that most were actually committed by Indian nationals. The baby who was found dead after going missing was apparently accidentally badly injured by an Indian friend of the family who panicked and drove and left the baby on the verge of a roadside outside Melbourne. The Indian man who was apparently set on fire beside his car following a racist attack, turned out to be an accidental self ignition when he attempting to set the car on fire for insurance purposes. Another Indian man knifed in what was also regarded as a racist attack, was subsequently found to have been knifed by an Indian friend. There were a few other incidents but I can't remember the detail. The only one that turned out to be blameable on a non-Indian Australian was an opportunistic attack on a fast food employee. There were a few minor racists incidents that were not attributable to Indians themselves, but they were no different to what one gets in any modern society. I thing what grates in the minds of all Australians following the eventual discovery of what happened in each of these cases, was the fact that the final verdicts went almost unreported in the Indian press, whereas the initial reports blaming "racist" Australia caused riots in the streets there.



Perhaps these final verdicts were also under reported within Australia.  I remember all the headlines and extensive articles about the "violence against Indians" at the time, but I'm quite unaware of the outcomes you describe above.  
Again, it's testimony to the national trait of "it's all our fault" which is mostly just rubbish imo.



pixel said:


> I don't judge a person for his or her beliefs and attitudes either. There is usually a reason in their history that explains, without excusing, what they think and do.



Sure.  And this is what I was suggesting with respect to your own views about the British.  You are, however, absolutely entitled to privacy in that context.



> However, I do hold some beliefs and attitudes dearer than others. Which is which will often depend on the context and available options, but two attitudes that consistently rank very low on my scale are smug self-righteousness and arguing by generalisation.



I agree, but acknowledge it's almost impossible to avoid a sense of generalisation when discussing, e.g. the entrenched attitudes of male Indians toward women.  Ditto, of course, many other countries.

I appreciate the discussion.  Good to know we can express differing views without incurring insults in return.


----------



## Macquack (30 December 2012)

Calliope said:


> Unfortunately, unlike you, *I can't  turn off caring with the press of a button *just because something is outside my control.




Cry me a river, Calliope has a heart.


----------



## Calliope (30 December 2012)

Macquack said:


> Cry me a river, Calliope has a heart.




Thanks for the acknowledgment Macquack, It's the first kind words I have had from you, despite the sarcasm. Happy New Year.


----------



## Macquack (30 December 2012)

Calliope said:


> Thanks for the acknowledgment Macquack, It's the first kind words I have had from you, despite the sarcasm. Happy New Year.




Damn, now you are being nice. It is not supposed to be like this, must be the festive season.

Happy New Year to you and look forward to locking horns in 2013.


----------



## Miss Hale (1 January 2013)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



CanOz said:


> For life of me i can't fathom what was going on in the heads of the perpetrators....:bad:
> 
> Where in their upbringing was it deemed acceptable to treat human beings this way?:frown:
> 
> ...




This was/is my reaction too.  If this was an isolated incident you would say that the perpetrators were mentally ill but if this is widespread as it seems it may be well then I can't begin to comprehend this


----------



## pixel (1 January 2013)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



Miss Hale said:


> This was/is my reaction too.  If this was an isolated incident you would say that the perpetrators were mentally ill but if this is widespread as it seems it may be well then I can't begin to comprehend this




There are precedents that may help us understand: Google "Behavioral sink" or check it on Wiki.
Calhoun's experiments with population overcrowding led to these observations, taken from -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink:



> Among the males the behavior disturbances ranged from* sexual deviation to cannibalism *and from frenetic overactivity to a pathological withdrawal from which individuals would emerge to eat, drink and move about only when other members of the community were asleep. The social organization of the animals showed equal disruption.
> [...] In the experiments in which the behavioral sink developed, infant mortality ran as high as 96 percent among the most disoriented groups in the population.



(highlights by me)


----------



## pixel (1 January 2013)

more detail at http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Escap...periments+of+John+B.+Calhoun+&...-a0197666893
*"Escaping the Laboratory: the rodent experiments of John B. Calhoun & their cultural influence."*


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (1 January 2013)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



CanOz said:


> For life of me i can't fathom what was going on in the heads of the perpetrators....:bad:
> 
> Where in their upbringing was it deemed acceptable to treat human beings this way?:frown:
> 
> ...




It's all of the above mate.

Indian society is a pretty sick one, quick to judge, and held together by class, racism, religion and misogyny.

The above four are all entwined, but the caste system is the glue that keeps the society sick.












The most fortunate person is a high caste Brahman male, they usually are encouraged by their mums to marry Indians with a whiter colour, as black is frowned upon, and more prevalent amongst the Untouchables.

Thus the success of Sonia Gandhi, an Italian imported in to the Gandhi ruling family.

Wealth goes from bottom to top on the pyramid. 

Blackness and disadvantage from top to bottom.

Worst off are Untouchable females who happen to have been born very black.

It's a very crook society.

They also, as in most aberrant society thrive on blame, each other within castes, other castes or in the case of the unfortunate murdered girl the fact that she was out at night.

If they can't blame each other for imagined ills, they pick on perceived slights from other countries, as they did some years ago with Australia.

gg


----------



## Calliope (6 January 2013)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Indian society is a pretty sick one, quick to judge, and held together by class, racism, religion and misogyny.




Indeed it is a sick country where being accused of rape or sexual violence does not interfere with the accused pursuing a political career.



> As thousands of people gathered in the cold at Delhi's national memorial to Mohandas (Mahatma) Gandhi to call for tough new laws to protect women, Chief Justice Altamas Kabir said he had agreed to consider a petition asking the Supreme Court to suspend politicians from national and state parliaments if they faced charges of sexual violence.
> 
> About 260 men accused of such crimes have been permitted to stand in Indian elections over the past five years - including more than 30 charged with rape.
> 
> Six serving members of India's state legislatures are facing rape prosecutions and two national MPs are facing charges of other sexual crimes against women, according to Jagdeep Chhokar, of the Association for Democratic Reforms, which tracks the criminal records of political candidates.




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...n-gang-rape-case/story-fnb64oi6-1226547317007


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (6 January 2013)

The Indian Ambassador should be called in by Bob Carr to explain his country's attitude towards women.

gg


----------



## DB008 (7 January 2013)

BBC - The rapes that India forgot
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20907755

Uttar Pradesh: Girl set on fire for resisting eve-teasing dies


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The Indian Ambassador should be called in by Bob Carr to explain his country's attitude towards women.
> 
> gg






DB008 said:


> BBC - The rapes that India forgot
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20907755
> 
> Uttar Pradesh: Girl set on fire for resisting eve-teasing dies




And this mob of pissants tried to lecture Australia on racism.

Bob Carr needs to call in the Indian Ambassador to explain his country's attitude to women.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (7 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> And this mob of pissants tried to lecture Australia on racism.
> 
> Bob Carr needs to call in the Indian Ambassador to explain his country's attitude to women.
> 
> gg




Yes absolutely he should.......


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> And this mob of pissants tried to lecture Australia on racism.
> 
> Bob Carr needs to call in the Indian Ambassador to explain his country's attitude to women.
> 
> gg






MrBurns said:


> Yes absolutely he should.......




Especially since his boss, Ms.Gillard goes on about misogyny so much, without understanding the word.

This Indian atrocity is fair dinkum misogyny.

Bob needs to get off his **** and call the Ambassador in, if his government cares so much about misogyny.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (7 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Especially since his boss, Ms.Gillard goes on about misogyny so much, without understanding the word.
> 
> This Indian atrocity is fair dinkum misogyny.
> 
> ...




I don't expect anything from Gillard, she's now busy trying to look concerned for the cameras over in Tasmania.
She's on TV that often that we can hardly get through a news story without her droning boganese voice ruining it.


----------



## Some Dude (7 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Especially since his boss, Ms.Gillard goes on about misogyny so much, without understanding the word.
> 
> This Indian atrocity is fair dinkum misogyny.
> 
> Bob needs to get off his **** and call the Ambassador in, if his government cares so much about misogyny.




Given your appreciation for their plight, maybe you could get involved also?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 January 2013)

MrBurns said:


> I don't expect anything from Gillard, she's now busy trying to look concerned for the cameras over in Tasmania.
> She's on TV that often that we can hardly get through a news story without her droning boganese voice ruining it.




Now Burnsie,

That is a bit harsh. Whitlam is reported by the Sydney Morning Herald as having flown " In and out of Darwin in a Day" after the cyclone in 1975.

I think she is correct to be on the ground, directing operations.

What political capital is made out of it is down to her Pommie Head Honcho John McTernan, who kept the ******** Tony Blair in power long past his use by date.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (7 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Now Burnsie,
> 
> That is a bit harsh.
> 
> gg




I'm afraid my dislike for Gillard has escalated into a full blown loathing, I must try not to let it creep into my posts.
Fact is now that I've woken up to her modus operandi I can see self interest as the motivation behind everything she does.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 January 2013)

MrBurns said:


> I'm afraid my dislike for Gillard has escalated into a full blown loathing, I must try not to let it creep into my posts.
> Fact is now that I've woken up to her modus operandi I can see self interest as the motivation behind everything she does.




Her chief of staff a Pom called McTernan is calling the shots.

He kept Blair in power.

And believe it or not he may just do it with Gillard.

He is Machiavelli 101.

gg


----------



## MrBurns (7 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Her chief of staff a Pom called McTernan is calling the shots.
> 
> He kept Blair in power.
> 
> ...




Well if he does it will serve them right as they'll have to fix their own mess.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 January 2013)

MrBurns said:


> Well if he does it will serve them right as they'll have to fix their own mess.




No mate, we will.

Fight the Pom.

Fight McTernan

Fight Machiavelli.

Let Gillard and the other no hopers get their Parliamentary pensions with Slipper and Thomson.

A small price to pay for Democracy and Freedom.

And let the Pom McTernan find his own ****ing way home.

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 January 2013)

This glorified godbotherer had this to say.

From the Times of India.



> NEW DELHI: Spiritual guru Asaram Bapu has landed himself in a controversy over his remark that the December 16 Delhi gang-rape victim is as guilty as those responsible for the barbaric sexual assault on her.
> 
> "Only 5-6 people are not the culprits. The victim is as guilty as her rapists... She should have called the culprits brothers and begged before them to stop... This could have saved her dignity and life. Can one hand clap? I don't think so," Media reports quoted Asaram Bapu, as saying.
> 
> According to media reports, the self-proclaimed godman further said that he is against harsher punishments for the accused as the law could be misutilised.




Bob Carr needs to call in the Indian Ambassador to make him account for this Misogyny.

No woman is safe in India if this is how a top Cleric dictates.

Avoid India as a travel destination.

gg


----------



## Calliope (8 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Bob Carr needs to call in the Indian Ambassador to make him account for this Misogyny.




What's all this about Bob Carr? The Ambassador would laugh at him. He is probably as big a joke in India as he is here.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (8 January 2013)

Calliope said:


> What's all this about Bob Carr? The Ambassador would laugh at him. He is probably as big a joke in India as he is here.




Game set and match Calliope.

gg


----------



## sydboy007 (10 January 2013)

They just keep on digging

The lawyer representing three of the men charged with the gang rape and murder of a medical student aboard a moving bus in New Delhi has blamed the victims for the assault, saying he has never heard of a "respected lady" being raped in India.

Next they'll be talking about "legitimate rape"

Me thinks a blunt rusty knife and chopping block are what's needed to sort this out


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 January 2013)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



Calliope said:


> Indeed it is a sick country where being accused of rape or sexual violence does not interfere with the accused pursuing a political career.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...n-gang-rape-case/story-fnb64oi6-1226547317007




Indeed Calliope,

India is a sick nation.

One wonders if these monsters had been from a higher class, whether they would have been ever arrested, and the families of the victims paid for silence.

Not a good look for India.

gg


----------



## DB008 (10 January 2013)

Lowest of the lows....



> *Lawyer in India gang-rape case says victims to blame
> *
> 
> An Indian lawyer defending three of the men charged with rape and murder in connection with a brutal attack on a 23-year-old woman on a New Delhi bus says the victims are to blame for what happened.
> ...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 January 2013)

DB008 said:


> Lowest of the lows....




+1

Sick bastards.

One wonders whether the money we gain from teaching them, is worth having this ethic walking about our streets.

gg


----------



## aarbee (10 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> +1
> 
> Sick bastards.
> 
> ...




GG,
I have enjoyed reading many of your posts on this forum and had a mental picture of you which is very different from what is emerging from these threads which portray a very immature, limited and parochial thinking. For your sake, I hope it is only limited to this one point agenda.

I had earlier written a lengthy post in reply to one of your earlier posts tarring every one coming out of a nation with the same brush based on your experience of a brief glimpse through a very narrow peephole. I deleted it before posting it when I was reminded of the adage "Never argue with an idiot for he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience".  Even though I have hitherto mostly restricted my contribution in this forum to matters relating to trading and yet might regret posting this, yet feel compelled to do it.

I imagine that you are still seriously smarting from that Indian news media's branding of Australians as racists. I can understand why. I am of Indian origin. During our last visit to India in 2010, I had spent a considerable amount of time rubbishing the prevailing news hysteria to the numerous family, friends and strangers that I met. A vast majority of Indians hold Australians in very high regard but were caught up in that hysteria whipped up by the media. Most of them were very confused on the issue as there was a serious dissonance in their image of an Aussie and that being painted by news reports. 

There is racism in every country of the world. I know, having spent 20 years going all over the world on Merchant ships. So it is with Australia (ask the young student working as a waiter or driving a taxi). Does that make Australia racist. Certainly not. Not more than any other nation and perhaps among the most tolerant. In the nearly decade and a half I have called Australia home, I have travelled (business related and holidays) to the various parts of Australia; perhaps more than what 90% of Australians would have visited including some places that most people don't even know exist. In all my travels, I have not felt discriminated against. In some remote parts of Queensland I have been treated differently because I came from a big city (Melbourne or Sydney are targets for that treatment) and not because I am a different colour. 

This is not to say, that there would not be others who had been in this country, say as students who have had different experience. They could see it in a different light and report accordingly. There are historical reasons for Indians' sensitivity to racism. The media in India is still maturing and catch on to such news and sensationalise it and milk it for all its worth. The story then takes a life of its own. We all know how it goes. So it happened in this case. 

Our government could certainly have done a better job in dealing with the matter and waited too long till the hysteria had settled in. 

What has happened in Delhi recently is appalling and there is no shortage of voices being raised against it. I can't think of too many developing countries which have a democracy (albeit a creaky, rickety one) like India where still there is a scope for people's voice to be heard. 

But to paint every individual from a nation of a billion people of diverse religions, cultures, languages (yes languages, not just dialects) and ethnic backgrounds with the same brush is not a very mature thing to do. 

I hope that bee in your bonnet would take some rest.

Back to trading,

Cheers


----------



## basilio (10 January 2013)

Well written aarbee. 

Certainly the rape and aftermath in Delhi is a disgrace but as you point out tarring an entire nation on the basis of one horrific event is just dumb.  After all  in that context how would we view the USA after seeing a string of killings in schools, malls ect.? But unfortunately it seems too easy to be simplistic and not see bigger pictures.

It is not easy to have a balanced discussion on many ASF forums. Perhaps your right to stick to discussions on share trading.

Cheers


----------



## Julia (10 January 2013)

basilio said:


> It is not easy to have a balanced discussion on many ASF forums.



Lack of balance, when you hold less than objective views, simply means that not enough people agree with you.


> Perhaps your(sic) right to stick to discussions on share trading.



On the contrary.  I'd hope for more similarly articulate contributions from aarbee, whose comments are a good example of balance imo.


----------



## basilio (10 January 2013)

> On the contrary. I'd hope for more similarly articulate contributions from aarbee, whose comments are a good example of balance imo.  Julia




Totally agree Julia. I'm just not sure how his balanced views will be treated in most forums.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (10 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> +1
> 
> Sick bastards.
> 
> ...






aarbee said:


> GG,
> I have enjoyed reading many of your posts on this forum and had a mental picture of you which is very different from what is emerging from these threads which portray a very immature, limited and parochial thinking. For your sake, I hope it is only limited to this one point agenda.
> 
> I had earlier written a lengthy post in reply to one of your earlier posts tarring every one coming out of a nation with the same brush based on your experience of a brief glimpse through a very narrow peephole. I deleted it before posting it when I was reminded of the adage "Never argue with an idiot for he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience".  Even though I have hitherto mostly restricted my contribution in this forum to matters relating to trading and yet might regret posting this, yet feel compelled to do it.
> ...




Thanks aarbee, for pulling me up.

My comment was uncalled for, I regret it, and apologise.

I learnt much from your post aarbee, about myself.

Thanks.

gg


----------



## aarbee (10 January 2013)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks aarbee, for pulling me up.
> 
> My comment was uncalled for, I regret it, and apologise.
> 
> ...




You're welcome.

Cheers


----------



## Julia (10 January 2013)

Group hug, all?


----------



## pixel (10 January 2013)

aarbee said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> Cheers




Thank you aarbee for a brilliant post.
After trying to express the same ideas - albeit with a little more venom - and being attacked for it, I had decided to leave certain topics (and posters) alone. Glad I returned and spotted your considered post.

It seems strange at first that we "new Aussies" from non-British origins have to point out the discrepancy between the Hoganesque another-shrimp-on-the-barbie egalitarian image and increasing British-style Upper Class attitudes. Both attitudes are part of Australian reality, as are many more attitudes from racism to saving the planet - and anything in between. 

As to India, I know a great number of Indians, and my experience with them are no different to my experience with Americans, Chinese, Dutch, Germans, or Australians: With some, I "connect" and have struck a friendship; others I'm glad I don't have to see again; and every shade in between. It is easy to generalise and condemn an entire group, race, people, ... to the negative view that a single specimen of theirs may have caused me to adopt.

But it is wrong! And the more different experiences I had, the more inclined I am to argue against such generalisation. I may not always succeed in getting the message across, but *it's the attitudes I object to, not the individuals who have adopted them.*

Special praise goes also to you, GG, for showing character and acknowledging aarbee. You, too, made me glad I did return to this topic once more and got the opportunity to correct my opinion of you.

Cheers to you both,
Pixel.


----------



## DB008 (14 January 2013)

*India police arrest 6 in new bus gang rape*



> Police said they arrested six men on Saturday in another gang rape of a bus passenger in India, four weeks after a deadly attack on a student on a moving bus in the capital outraged Indians and led to calls for tougher rape laws.




http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/13/india-bus-rape.html


----------



## dutchie (14 January 2013)

DB008 said:


> *India police arrest 6 in new bus gang rape*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/13/india-bus-rape.html




Another disgusting event.

The rape statistics (and that's only the reported ones) (see the video underneath the photo in the above link) are shocking.

India must address this issue quickly and strongly.


----------



## Calliope (9 February 2013)

dutchie said:


> Another disgusting event.
> 
> The rape statistics (and that's only the reported ones) (see the video underneath the photo in the above link) are shocking.
> 
> India must address this issue quickly and strongly.




The Indian Police are the real problem.



> Yet the harrowing tale of police ineptitude in the aftermath of the December 16 gang rape, told by a 28-year-old software engineer who was dumped naked and bleeding alongside his female friend on a Delhi road, shows how far Indian policing must come.
> 
> The man gave closed-door testimony this week in a Delhi fast-track court.






> "We kept shouting at the police; 'please give us some clothes' but they were busy deciding which police station our case should be registered at," he told Zee News.
> 
> "The policemen didn't help us because my friend was bleeding profusely and they were probably worried about their clothes."
> 
> ...



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...d-by-delhi-rapes/story-e6frg6so-1226573867540


----------



## OiOiOifromIndia (26 February 2013)

*Re: India - Male Chauvinism Reigns Supreme.*



Garpal Gumnut said:


> I was quite surprised some years ago when India accused Australia of racism.
> 
> This latest atrocity against a young woman, now dead, and her friend, affirms my belief that India has a long, long way to go to be within cooee of our advanced culture.
> 
> ...




Just my two Australian cents!

I do agree that large swathes of India are filled with backward, misogynistic people. Believe me, I'm filled with the same amount of repulsion and loathing for such people as you are, but there's precise little I can do to challenge their old-fashioned values as they are deeply ingrained in this paternalistic Indian society. 

Culturally, Hindu India is not very different from Muslim-Arabs, Pakistanis, Afghans or other Islamic societies that our Hindutva militants so proudly despise. There are slight differences though like alcohol consumption and free mixing of sexes is accepted. Once I went to Dubai where I stopped an Islamic Burqa-wearing Emirati lady for some mindless conversation (and some casual flirting); nothing really happened she was pleased to enjoy my company but my local friends advised me not to approach these stranger Emirati women again, they only spell trouble. *People actually get jailed there for kissing*. Indian/Pakistani men in Middle-East have learned to stay away from local women as the Arabs are damn insecure people.   

Scratch under the surface of Dubai, all its modernity, skyscrapers, wealth and luxuries, and you have the same medieval brutality mindset you find in other Arab lands. And Dubai is supposed to be the most liberal and tolerant place in the entire Middle-East. In India, people have the freedom to flirt, hold hands and kiss in public and a lot more. *I do believe that's a very important freedom we enjoy here quite comparable to Western societies and East Asian cultures*. 

However, India is also a land of contradictions where on the other hand you will hear news of honour killings, in this regard it's similar to the medieval brutality mindset found in Bedouin Arab cultures. 

Many women in India are still forced to be housewives as their husbands and in-laws are insecure; a virtuous woman is not supposed to have other male friends etc. Trapped in an arranged marriage and in the name of upholding Indian traditions, many are unable to live fulfilling lives.

However a decent minority of women in India are empowered, mostly living in big cities. Here they have much more freedom, jobs, good careers and are treated equals to their male counterparts. Misogyny is unacceptable where I was born and raised, Bombay. Not a single friend or acquintance that I know of is chauvinistic - we have girls in our group who get treated as one of the members. 

Bombay is indeed filled with people who have very progressive and liberal values. Girls can wear skimpy clothing and noone bats and eyelid. In fact the further South you go in India, women become more empowered. Northern India can be complete opposite, it's a culture dominated by aggression and machismo. In places like Delhi (where this rape occurred), women can't walk alone after 7 PM in night. Down South in Bombay, Chennai or Bangalore, it's really the complete opposite. 

One more observation, the fact that many Indian men stare and leer at women is still a drawback but I heard the same machismo mindset prevails in some Western countries as well: e.g. Italy, Greece, Spain, Turkey. One of my girl-friends went for her honeymoon in these countries and she says she was constantly ogled by local men, and followed - even though her husband was with her. She said the feeling was similar to that what she would experience in North India, Delhi etc. where males take undue liberties with females.


----------



## DB008 (17 March 2013)

*MP: Seven unidentified men gangrape Swiss woman, case registered
*
India, Updated Mar 16, 2013 at 12:05pm IST




> Bhopal: A Swiss woman was allegedly gangraped by seven men in the Datia district in Madhya Pradesh. The woman was cycling along with her husband from Orchha in MP to Agra in Uttar Pradesh.
> 
> The couple was camping near Jhadia village when seven men allegedly looted them and raped the woman. A case has been registered against seven unidentified people in Datia Civil Lines police station in Madhya Pradesh.
> 
> Reports say the woman's husband was also beaten up. The men also stole the couple's laptop and fled the scene.




http://ibnlive.in.com/news/mp-seven-unidentified-men-gangrape-swiss-woman-case-registered/379110-3.html


==Additional Links==

BBC Link

France 24 Link


----------



## DB008 (18 March 2013)

Shocking...Get this...



> *Six men arrested over gang-rape of Swiss tourist in India: woman must share blame for attack, say police*
> 
> Six held after Swiss woman is assaulted – but inspector says she should never have been camping in the area
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (18 March 2013)

The obvious first reaction to anyone holding a woman even partly to blame for being raped is outrage for most of us.

But, if a country - and a particular area - is well known for its disrespect toward women and, further, known for the authorities being less than enthusiastic about pursuing the perpetrators of rape and violence toward women, is it really sensible to camp in such an isolated place?   


> Neerja Ahlawat, sociologist and deputy director of the women’s studies centre at Maharshi Dayanand University in Haryana said: “This is typical of all the cases that take place in India. The police don’t want to take responsibility. Indian women are not safe, in small towns, villages or the big cities, partly because the police are not assuming responsibility for keeping women safe. They blame the dark, the clothes a woman wears, everything but their shirking of their duties.”
> 
> The Chambal valley region, where the rape took place, is renowned in India for being lawless and a refuge for some of its most infamous dacoits, or bandits. Criminals who seek refuge in this barren region of ravines and scrubland can often evade capture for years. Local reports last night suggested that five of the suspects had confessed to raping the woman, but Inspector Budholiya said they had not admitted to being involved.
> 
> ...




No, rape cannot ever be justified, but on just a common sense basis, why would you take such a risk?
If you know a river is full of crocs, surely you're not going to jump in on the idealistic premise that the crocs should leave you alone.


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## Tisme (30 December 2017)

Macquack said:


> Cry me a river, Calliope has a heart.





Racist! Need I continue?


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## luutzu (30 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> Racist! Need I continue?




Soooo... you're telling Macquack you're not a racist? Were offended to be thought such? That you hold no supremacist view of yourself based on your blood and skin colour? That anyone who thinks a person's race or religion automatically make them superior or otherwise more "civilised" is an idiot?

Other members might be suprised to hear that from you McGee


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## basilio (30 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Soooo... you're telling Macquack you're not a racist? Were offended to be thought such? That you hold no supremacist view of yourself based on your blood and skin colour? That anyone who thinks a person's race or religion automatically make them superior or otherwise more "civilised" is an idiot?
> 
> Other members might be suprised to hear that from you McGee




Surprise, surprise, surprise..


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## SirRumpole (30 December 2017)

> That anyone who thinks a person's race or religion automatically make them superior or otherwise more "civilised" is an idiot?




People who tend to rely on a God, spirits or external forces to provide their needs are more likely to be technologically and scientifically retarded in comparison to those who have enquiring minds and take nothing for granted. That doesn't make them anatomically inferior, it's their belief systems that are holding them back.


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## luutzu (30 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> People who tend to rely on a God, spirits or external forces to provide their needs are more likely to be technologically and scientifically retarded in comparison to those who have enquiring minds and take nothing for granted. That doesn't make them anatomically inferior, it's their belief systems that are holding them back.




Belief systems *and *military occupation/colonisation.

Look at any poor and impoverished country in the world today. The thing they all have in common is not their religion or their skin colour. It's European colonialism, then Japanese/Soviet, then American "free trade".

Take the Philippines or Indonesia in the 70s, 80s and 90s... Their dictator sign contracts on the country's behalf to the tune of billions of dollars - billions back when that was real money. Pocket some of it, the rest goes to US multinationals... 

Were those debt forgiven? Nope. Were they "odious debt", i.e. debt signed on by dictators for themselves and not on behalf of their country? Yes... but debt is debt and so pay up, or else! 

That's not blaming Western civilisation, that's just pointing out facts that great men of destiny do enslave people to enrich themselves. Then fellow Westerners have to pay taxes for such liberation and also dig into their own pocket to sponsor children left from the effort.


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## Tisme (31 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Soooo... you're telling Macquack you're not a racist? Were offended to be thought such? That you hold no supremacist view of yourself based on your blood and skin colour? That anyone who thinks a person's race or religion automatically make them superior or otherwise more "civilised" is an idiot?
> 
> Other members might be suprised to hear that from you McGee





Hey, I'm just pointing out a hater hypocrite who uses his own endemic racism as a means to discredit others he disagrees with on totally unrelated matters. I'm not ashamed of my gene pool and I certainly don't expect denial racists to understand irony, tongue in cheek and apparently other difficult concepts, especially if their genome has a missing link, through not fault but their ancestors. 

You know this because you promote and apologise for the Chinese all the time. We get Bas and VC who enjoy the Anglo "fair and fairness" and "Western Modernity" freedom of speech to argue the toss for anything that isn't root austral/anglo western, all the time. Apparently those betrayals of our culture are quite permissible.

Surprise, surprise, surprise Bas


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## basilio (31 December 2017)

Ah Tisme the old "I was just ironical, tongue in cheek actually" line. But of course "I'm not a racist, it was just a joke  and how dare you suggest otherwise."

That must be your favourite really.  After each particularly revolting comment on women ( Clemintine Ford in particular )  Muslims, blacks whatever you trot out that piece of specious drivel with unrelenting fervour.

You are a good learner however.  In fact that particular "*I'm ironical, thats a joke!*" line is number x in the Daily Stormer's guide book for good racist banter and how to suck in the punters.

*This Is The Daily Stormer's Playbook*
*A leaked style guide reveals they’re Nazis about grammar (and about Jews).*
14/12/2017 8:00 AM AEDT | *Updated* 14/12/2017 11:19 AM AEDT
8.7 K

  Ashley Feinberg  Senior Reporter, HuffPost
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/daily-stormer-nazi-style-guide_us_5a2ece19e4b0ce3b344492f2





	

		
			
		

		
	
 HuffPost Illustration/Getty
Back in September, Vox Day, a Gamergate holdover who has assumed the position of racist alt-right figurehead, published a handful of brief excerpts from what he described as the “Andrew Anglin” style guide. For the blissfully unaware, Anglin is a neo-Nazi troll and propagandist who runs The Daily Stormer, one of the more prominent sites of the white supremacist web. The passages selected by Vox Day in his blog post suggested that Anglin is persnickety about detail and presentation ― except on the subject of the Jews, who are to be blamed “for everything.”

HuffPost has acquired the 17-page document in its entirety, as well as transcripts from an IRC channel where the document was shared in an effort to recruit new writers. It’s more than a style guide for writing internet-friendly neo-Nazi prose; it’s a playbook for the alt-right.

The style guide, according to Vox Day, was a set of directives for whoever might be writing under Anglin’s name, the idea being that Anglin’s army of ghostwriters need to maintain some sense of consistent style. But the guide appears to be for all of the site’s writers, many of whom write under their own names (or at least their own pseudonyms).

......
They also take pains to try and not turn off any readers who might be just starting to flirt with white supremacy. Again, this manifests itself in a concerted effort to mix the vicious and the mundane, which mainstream outlets have also accomplished, though entirely by accident.






As for what those racial slurs should be, Anglin is happy to clarify.






Women, of course, get their own set of epithets.


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## basilio (31 December 2017)

A few more eyeopeners from the Daily Stormer writer guide.

The constant line-toeing and the deliberate muddying of intentions and meaning can have a dizzying effect, especially for media outlets that aren’t used to grappling with such bad actors. Anglin knows this, and he is doing everything in his power to exploit it.






Remember this style guide the next time an alt-righter says something so hammily outrageous that you begin to doubt its sincerity. This is _by design_. The Daily Stormer and other groups like it want you to be unsure if you should take them seriously. Andrew Anglin wants you to think he’s just a troll, that he’s spouting incendiary crap for no other reason than to get a rise out of you. Remember that the irony and the coy misdirection are all in service of tricking people into following him on his path toward a white supremacist state. *This is what he believes.*


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## Tisme (31 December 2017)

basilio said:


> Ah Tisme the old "I was just ironical, tongue in cheek actually" line. But of course "I'm not a racist, it was just a joke  and how dare you suggest otherwise."
> 
> yadda yadda yadda




Have I not established I am not ashamed of my gene pool?

My guess you have no real connection to Australian lineage, anti Anglo and have an agenda to make sure it loses an identity you could never aspire to? Truth or dare right there.

Of course I bait you and the other idealogues who are ashamed of our national past. What patriot with gonads wouldn't. 

It isn't me that hands out the personal insults, it's the immature sheeple victims who think they can with impunity, but then go sissy sulk when they get a serve.


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## basilio (31 December 2017)

Tiseme what you  have established over many, many posts is that your posting style of "ironical," overblown white race supremacy is a text book copy of the Daily Stormers guide to promoting and normalising racism on  public forums.

Now that could be totally co-incidental.   Many people can arrive at similar strategy independently.  But I reckon if it looks like a duck, squawks like a duck, and walks like a duck - it's going to be duck for dinner.


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## luutzu (31 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> Have I not established I am not ashamed of my gene pool?
> 
> My guess you have no real connection to Australian lineage, anti Anglo and have an agenda to make sure it loses an identity you could never aspire to? Truth or dare right there.
> 
> ...




Why should any person, White or otherwise, be ashamed of their heritage, gene pool?

A person can still be proud of their heritage and at the same time not excuse or condone barbaric actions committed by people of the same race long ago. 

The crimes or achievements of others are theirs... takes a certain kind of character to recognise the good and the bad, praise the former and criticise the latter.

Hard to excuse certain crimes. No one expects the current generation to take the blame for it... just maybe not excuse or dust it over as though it's a necessary evil and "they all did it".

Kinda like some historian commenting on Columbus... yea, sure, he personally enslave a few hundred thousand natives; sure his arrival lead to the death of some 24 million Native Americans... BUT he's a great sailor though. 

It's that kind of bs that led Bush Jr. to proudly say that history will be kinder to him. He might be right about that but he shouldn't be. 

To be criticial and blame such people is not to be ashamed of one's gene pool... it's so that a warmongering ahole can't lie his nation into war, can't destroy an entire country or two or three, then just shrugs it to liberal idiots not knowing what great and patriotic men must do.

In short, a person can be critical of war crimes and act of terror without being unpatriotic or shameful of their country. 

To see the country doing wrong but excuse it because "our people did it".. .that's either psychotic or sycophantic mistaken for patriotism.


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## basilio (31 December 2017)

Tisme said:


> Have I not established I am not ashamed of my gene pool?
> 
> My guess you have no real connection to Australian lineage, anti Anglo and have an agenda to make sure it loses an identity you could never aspire to?




There is no problem with being proud of ones heritage.  It's when being "proud" of ones heritage turns into blind support of everything your country has done. It's when "white pride"  then denigrates every other culture as inferior "just not as good"  " in fact,  pretty well sub-human".

It reminds me of the Cronulla riots egged on by the lies of the shock jocks and ending up with druken Aussies wrapping themselves in Australian flags as they found and flogged any Lebanese they could lay their hands on.

Being proud of your culture doesn't have to make you blind, stupid or nasty.


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## Tisme (1 January 2018)

basilio said:


> Tiseme what you  have established over many, many posts is that your posting style of "ironical," overblown white race supremacy is a text book copy of the Daily Stormers guide to promoting and normalising racism on  public forums.
> 
> Now that could be totally co-incidental.   Many people can arrive at similar strategy independently.  But I reckon if it looks like a duck, squawks like a duck, and walks like a duck - it's going to be duck for dinner.




Not owning up to your roots eh? Kinda weakens your arguments for anti everything Australia was.

Never said I was into white supremacy. There are two distinct issues ... white skinned people are not allowed to express their obvious appearance incase it offends offwhites (you are a perfect example of jumping onto that anti white prejudice just by trying to use racism as a weapon), two Anglo culture is a 4000 year old learned lesson of continuous evolution, of many colours.


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## Tisme (1 January 2018)

basilio said:


> There is no problem with being proud of ones heritage.  It's when being "proud" of ones heritage turns into blind support of everything your country has done. It's when "white pride"  then denigrates every other culture as inferior "just not as good"  " in fact,  pretty well sub-human".
> 
> It reminds me of the Cronulla riots egged on by the lies of the shock jocks and ending up with druken Aussies wrapping themselves in Australian flags as they found and flogged any Lebanese they could lay their hands on.
> 
> Being proud of your culture doesn't have to make you blind, stupid or nasty.




I think if we had a bona fide supremacist on this forum I'd be giving him/her jip.

You can't go around loading up people's opinions with your own preconceptions, fears and grievances, unless you are totally closed to the idea that you have room for improvement. Actually you can, but you are really just arguing with you own bogeyman personified by a convenient avatar of Alalfa from Little Rascals.

You shutdown the opportunity of a worthwhile conversation when you use bellicose arguments predicated on hyperbole..... it's like trying to say something to someone yelling chants while holding a protest placard .... nothing gets through because of all the din.


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## Macquack (2 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> Racist! Need I continue?



Yes, as I have no idea what you are talking about.

Just a couple of quick questions, Tisme.

1. When you go down the pub/pubs that you frequent, do you take your trusty thesaurus with you for conversation?

2. If not, do you carry a stash of dictionaries to hand out to all your buddies?


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## Tisme (2 January 2018)

Macquack said:


> Yes, as I have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> Just a couple of quick questions, Tisme.
> 
> ...





So I am supposed to entertain a monosyllabic troll who has poor comprehension, is illiterate and denigrates educated people.

Instead of venting at me for your lack of english skills, perhaps you should be seeking out your school teachers and ask them why you rec'd second rate training or remedial classes for slow learners. 

I think Dick and Dora is still in publication, which should give you a good entry level into English Lit.


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## Macquack (2 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> So I am supposed to entertain a monosyllabic troll who has poor comprehension, is illiterate and denigrates educated people.
> 
> Instead of venting at me for your lack of english skills, perhaps you should be seeking out your school teachers and ask them why you rec'd second rate training or remedial classes for slow learners.
> 
> I think Dick and Dora is still in publication, which should give you a good entry level into English Lit.



Have I hit a nerve there?

You have not answered my question, Crypto King.


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## Tisme (3 January 2018)

Macquack said:


> Have I hit a nerve there?
> 
> You have not answered my question, Crypto King.





No I don't get excitables about haters.... they are already in their own kind of hell, so no need for me to stoke the fire. In nutshell you have already shown you enjoy the gutter while I'm more penthouse.


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