# Trading FTSE and other European Indexes



## pavilion103 (21 December 2011)

I'm curious as to who trades these.

With the attractive hours that the markets are open I'd assume many people would trade these?

Can I please get people's thoughts? Which are the best Indexes to trade? and more specifically do many people trade the FTSE?

What else do people trade in the evenings?

Also what are the standard costs per trade for these?


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## baby_swallow (21 December 2011)

pavilion103 said:


> I'm curious as to who trades these.
> 
> With the attractive hours that the markets are open I'd assume many people would trade these?
> 
> ...




Yes, a lot of people trade the European indices but maybe not a lot of Aussies do. 
The popular ones are the FTSE, DAX and FESX (or DJ EuroSTOXX 50).
DAX is a big contract while the FESX is like the emini version of DAX and its the most liquid. 
You can trade FTSE or FESX. These two usually move in-sync. But when SP mini (ES) opens, they usually march to the beat of ES  
I occasionally trade the FTSE before the ES opens.

Hope this will help...good luck


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## cynic (22 December 2011)

I've been trading the FTSE and the DAX (via OTC products) this year. The volatility of the DAX these past few months (!@#$ Euro uncertainty) has proven problematic to my preferred trading method, so my intention is to only trade the FTSE during the coming year.

As far as major sharemarket indices are concerned, the behaviour of the FTSE appears to be better suited to my preferred trading style/method. Hence my preference for trading this index.


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## tminus (22 December 2011)

baby_swallow said:


> DAX is a big contract while the FESX is like the emini version of DAX and its the most liquid.



Do you have a rough price on how much one contract costs at the moment, and what are the brokerage fees.

thanks


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## pavilion103 (22 December 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys,

I know it's too much to ask but would love an all inclusive thread discussion the international markets and even futures with the market open hours and rough costs and advantages of each. 

It is just so confusing for a new trader like me. I'll need to do A LOT of reading up now. 

A lot of it is still jargon to me and I have no idea what to get into beyond stocks!!! I guess an understanding will come with time and research.


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## pavilion103 (19 September 2012)

I just subscribed to the Futures data last night on IB. 

I'm curious as to how many contracts at a time people on here trade? 1 is enough for me at the moment while I get used to it.


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## Trembling Hand (19 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> I just subscribed to the Futures data last night on IB.
> 
> I'm curious as to how many contracts at a time people on here trade? 1 is enough for me at the moment while I get used to it.




Are you live?


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## pavilion103 (19 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Are you live?




I'm on the simulator on IB in real time. I'm planning on going live in 2 weeks, only trading 1 contract to begin with.


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## Trembling Hand (19 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> I'm planning on going live in 2 weeks,


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## pavilion103 (19 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


>




Is that not a good thing? 

I'm thinking it will help me understand price action.


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## Trembling Hand (19 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> Is that not a good thing?
> 
> I'm thinking it will help me understand price action.




It will help you understand negative expectancy. After all you have done learning how can you go live after 10 afternoons looking at a totally new market. You have no idea what to expect. 

I'm stunned!


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## pavilion103 (19 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> It will help you understand negative expectancy. After all you have done learning how can you go live after 10 afternoons looking at a totally new market. You have no idea what to expect.
> 
> I'm stunned!





I'm going to commence trading Aussie equities in a couple of weeks. I'm achieving some great results on the sim.


Do different markets behave completely differently? I was thinking that VSA would be applicable across the board? Maybe I am getting carried away after I made some good profit on the sim last night trading the FTSE futures.


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## Joules MM1 (20 September 2012)

dstm, ok

http://traderhabits.com/if-i-made-money-every-trade-i-would-be-broke/

*If you make money every trade you will eventually be broke.*
Written on September 12, 2012 by Eli Radke


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## pavilion103 (20 September 2012)

What time frames do people use?

Does anyone use multiple time frames to confirm signals?


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## Trembling Hand (20 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> What time frames do people use?
> 
> Does anyone use multiple time frames to confirm signals?




Surely you'd have this all sorted by now? i mean you are about to start risking money?


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## pavilion103 (20 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> Surely you'd have this all sorted by now? i mean you are about to start risking money?




I'm asking questions out of curiosity to see how others trade. Is it impossible to have a discussion on this forum?  

I'm sick of some of the crap on this site. I'm not a first time poster asking how to make a million dollars in one day. But rather someone who has diligently studied trading for a couple of years. I admitted that I don't know much about the futures markets, so I ask questions to see how others like to go about it. Of course I have my own idea on how I'd like to approach it. Obviously I'm interested to see how others do also. 

Trembling Hand, you are one of my favorite posters on here and I have gained great value from many of your insights. However, some of your responses to me on here are not worthy of the poster that you are.

I mentioned the other day I was going to try trading it. Thankfully you told me the FTSE futures is different to Aussie equities, so I'll spend some more time learning it. I've been nothing but humble and teachable. The last 3 nights I've made $165, $60 and $100 in an hour or so on the IB simulator. Instead of getting carried away and saying that I'm going to make thousands next week, I take your advice on board and will be more cautious and study the market before entering.  

All I want to do is learn and one day be a great trader. I don't care when that is. I've waited 2 years before even placing a single trade. I am in this for the long haul.


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## Trembling Hand (20 September 2012)

Mate prop traders spend 2-3 months simming trying EVERYTHING on futs 8 hours a day no matter how much stock trading they have done. When they have a few months profitable on sim they go live AFTER they have devolved their own method from patterns that make sense to them.

That would be a good way to start. From my observations those that are looking for confirmation from other about how they should trade are about to waste 2-3 years following other peoples tails.

Put up the following on your screens,

1 min, 5 min, 15 min, of the Z.

5 Min of DAX, ES, EUR and what ever else makes sense. Then just man up and trade what makes sense to you.

Don't ask a forum of 95% lossers about how you should follow them. Thats always been my thinking. For good sake but the $ figure out of your simming.

That just my not so humble opinion. 

Carry on.


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## tech/a (20 September 2012)

PAV 
With index futs start with support and resistance.
Look for fading very high volume and wide range bars for short
Timeframe counter trend trades.

Timing and decisive trading a must.


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## Joules MM1 (20 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> I just subscribed to the Futures data last night on IB.
> 
> I'm curious as to how many contracts at a time people on here trade? 1 is enough for me at the moment while I get used to it.




if a reply isnt out of the diplomatic corp it's because time is precious and in the game youre entering there's no wriggle room except the one you anticipate.....so, curt replies are to the point

......from the questions you ask need to sit with someone who can take you through trade set-ups.....pedestrian questions like how many contracts another trader trades is like boyscout v marine.....

you need a lot of screen time...dedicated hours and if youre in a rush you def need someone to sit with you....


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## CanOz (20 September 2012)

Pav, I think what everyone's getting at is if you spend the time at the screens you won't have questions, only lots of answers. We all trade trade differently and you need to answe your own questions as you develop your own system. You will start to see yourself if you need multiple time frames or not. If it works for you and helps you pull the trigger then go with it. 

I spent a year on sim because I kept changing and went through the beginners cycle all over again. Like you say, you've put in the hours learning to read a chart. Now your entering a smaller time frame, so give yourself the time to adjust and then you'll see patterns....repetitive behavior, not triangles or wedges but things that happen and repeat. 

I think you'll see it, you'll have that light bulb moment. Just give yourself the screen time you need to see the auction happen live.

CanOz

As an example of a pattern check this out....http://http://propextraining.com/?page_id=1754


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## pavilion103 (21 September 2012)

Thanks for the replies.

So it appears that this is a whole new game and screen time is the key. 

I think I will begin the learning process by devoting a couple of nights watching the FTSE futures, while I'm trading Aussie equities EOD. Hopefully in the months to come I will gain greater clarity and my questions will be answered.

It was better me coming on here, asking questions and getting a reality check, than assuming the market is the same as equities, keeping my mouth shut and losing thousands of dollars.


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## KurwaJegoMac (21 September 2012)

Do you wanna know the secret to success in trading? 

Read the passage at the link below. If it doesn't make sense, you're not ready. 

http://www.somerandom.com/the-jade-master


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## Trembling Hand (21 September 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> Read the passage at the link below. If it doesn't make sense, you're not ready.
> 
> http://www.somerandom.com/the-jade-master




I like it.


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## pavilion103 (22 September 2012)

KurwaJegoMac said:


> Do you wanna know the secret to success in trading?
> 
> Read the passage at the link below. If it doesn't make sense, you're not ready.
> 
> http://www.somerandom.com/the-jade-master




I enjoyed that. Most of my learning has been through trading the simulator and making mistakes and gaining an intuitive understanding. 


However, there are times for people to be cryptic and times for theoretical guidance. That can help speed up the learning process. 

I like the saying "A fool learns from (only) his own mistakes. A wise man from others' mistakes."


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## KurwaJegoMac (22 September 2012)

pavilion103 said:


> I enjoyed that. Most of my learning has been through trading the simulator and making mistakes and gaining an intuitive understanding.
> 
> 
> However, there are times for people to be cryptic and times for theoretical guidance. That can help speed up the learning process.
> ...




I'm glad you enjoyed it. 

I agree with you that there is a time for guidance. However what you were asking for were specific examples of others' trading practices after only having spent a few weeks staring at the sim.

You need to spend a lot longer understanding the fundamentals of your chosen markets and observing its' behaviour before going into trading practices.

For example do you know when are the most liquid times of the day for your market? When does volume dry up? Does it suffer from violent swings? What's the typical volatility at different times in the market? What other markets potentially influence yours? Etc etc.

Once you have a feel for the market after observing it, you'll probably be able to come up with your own methodolgy based on what you've observed. The next step is to practice/implement it. Once you've been trading it you can see what works and what doesnt - once you're at this point then i'd recommend asking for further advice about traders recommendations and personal trading styles for your chosen market. You can compare it against yours and incorporate what works for you.

Remember we all have different beliefs about the market and trade a multitude of different styles. If you attempt to start with seeking to emulate a technique of a poster on this board without understanding your market then you'll be setting yourself up for failure.

Hope that helps. We're not trying to be rude or dismissive - we're on here responding because we want to help and we encourage you to ask questions. Just understand that there's no substitute for screen time.


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## CanOz (22 September 2012)

Some excellent points KJM!

The Dax and FESX as an example have totally different personalities depending on the time of day...watch and you will see!

CanOz


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## pavilion103 (23 September 2012)

Thanks KJM and CanOz


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## KurwaJegoMac (24 September 2012)

You're welcome.


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## 5oclock (24 September 2012)

Pav is not the only one to have benefited from all of those good posts, thanks again all of you for taking the time to help.A forum is only as good as its posters,and once again ASF shines because of all of you guys!!


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## pavilion103 (23 May 2013)

I am seeking clarification. Below are two charts. These are of the FTSE Futures June 2013 contract. 

The first one is the chart from my computer - logged into IB. 
It has an upthrust yesterday followed by another down day today. 


The second one is the chart from my mobile - logged into IB
It has an up day yesterday and a down day today. 


Can anyone explain to me why there is a difference? I'm confused as to the two different charts both for the symbol "Z". Which is "correct:?


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## CanOz (23 May 2013)

Without even pulling up a chart I'm just guessing that one is RTH and one is ETH....i do know the markets sold off later...

Will check and let you know...

CanOz


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## tech/a (24 May 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> I am seeking clarification. Below are two charts. These are of the FTSE Futures June 2013 contract.
> 
> The first one is the chart from my computer - logged into IB.
> It has an upthrust yesterday followed by another down day today.
> ...




Thats the one Pav the LIFFE contract



Tradeguider code for 5 min chart


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## kid hustlr (24 May 2013)

99% sure it would have something to do with the timezones of each bar.

EDIT: just to calrify, my guess is on one chart is uses a different start and end time to the other chart, as such the bars print differently.


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## pavilion103 (24 May 2013)

kid hustlr said:


> 99% sure it would have something to do with the timezones of each bar.
> 
> EDIT: just to calrify, my guess is on one chart is uses a different start and end time to the other chart, as such the bars print differently.




This was my thought. It almost certainly has to be this.

Does anyone with IB know how this works? If not ill phone IB and ask them.


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## pavilion103 (24 May 2013)

CanOz said:


> Without even pulling up a chart I'm just guessing that one is RTH and one is ETH....i do know the markets sold off later...
> 
> Will check and let you know...
> 
> CanOz




Ok cool. 

If this is the case can you let me know which chart is ETH and which one is RTH?

Antything that can clarify the confusion would be great. Thanks.


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## kid hustlr (24 May 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> This was my thought. It almost certainly has to be this.
> 
> Does anyone with IB know how this works? If not ill phone IB and ask them.




I remember with the SPI it used to start at the night session (ie 5.10pm) and finish @ 4.30 the next day. It's probably different for each contract.

I'm unsure if you can 'adjust the settings' so to speak to have it start/end when you wish.


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## CanOz (24 May 2013)

It looks to me like your TWS chart has the data outside regular trading hours, so you must have that option checked in the charts settings, where as the TWS Mobile charts look to NOT have data outside regular trading hours. I've not used the charts on the mobile platform so can't comment on that adjustment.

CanOz


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## tech/a (24 May 2013)

kid hustlr said:


> I remember with the SPI it used to start at the night session (ie 5.10pm) and finish @ 4.30 the next day. It's probably different for each contract.
> 
> I'm unsure if you can 'adjust the settings' so to speak to have it start/end when you wish.




Found this 

1. Electronic Trading Hours (ETH) vs Regular Trading Hours (RTH) on electronically traded futures charts:

The session manager templates for managing the start and end times for different markets is an awesome addition. It just needs a little work on giving accurate ETH templates for the electronically traded futures markets like the e-mini S&P 500 (ES), Nasdaq (NQ), Dow (YM), Russell 2000 (TF) index instruments, US 30 Year Bonds (ZB), T-Notes (ZN) financials, as well as any other electronically traded grains or metals.

For example, the instrument default for the S&P 500 (ES) is currently the CME Globex Index Futures RTH template which starts at 8:00 am and ends at 3:15 pm central. The regular trading hours templates are nice to have, but the electronic futures contracts should really have electronic trading hours templates (ETH). I think the ETH hours are defined differently for each instrument depending on the exchange so they should be looked at individually. They aren't just 24 hours 12:00 am to 12:00 am either.

After looking at trading hours information for ES at the CME website I think the CME ES session hours should look like the following (big question mark):

Monday session opens on Sunday at 5:00 pm and closes on Monday at 3:15 pm central.
Tuesday session opens on Monday at 3:30 pm, and closes on Tuesday at 3:15 pm central, 
Wednesday session opens on Tuesday at 3:30 pm, and closes on Wednesday at 3:15 pm central, and so on. 
I've attached a graphic of a sample session template.

I (and possibly others) will want to see all the data available, not just the pit hours.

It would be great if you (or the data provider if they are responsible) could change the default session templates to electronic trading hours for the electronically traded contracts in the instrument manager.

I know editing the templates to get the full session would be over the head of many of my friends to whom I've recommended NinjaTrader. My main concern is for them. 

2. Day Bars not using template hours

Constructing daily bars from the minute bar data is also a great advantage to the new version when using Zenfire. Daily bars are very important for giving context. The only problem is that even after changing the session template in the data series window for the chart to electronic trading hours the OHLC of the bars on the daily time frame are still constructed using the daytime regular trading hours. The open, high, low, close should be built from the specified session hours if at all possible.

You can compare daily HLC to values for the current (March 2010) ES futures contract using ETH hours at this site: http://www.mypivots.com/dn/?symbol=250.

(I removed the Pivots indicator comment since no action is required, it was just an observation that it will work better when the day bar HLC is corrected.)


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## CanOz (24 May 2013)

this is the box that makes the difference with IB....


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## pavilion103 (24 May 2013)

Thanks guys ill have a look through these posts tonight at home.

Another question - what are some good futures indexes books that are worth reading? I've read "Futures Made Simple"
I'm thinking something in terms not of information but strategies for profiting from them. How they differ in movement from stocks etc.  Although I guess much if this understanding will come from watching the markets. 
Any good books would be a good educational supplement.


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## CanOz (24 May 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> Thanks guys ill have a look through these posts tonight at home.
> 
> Another question - what are some good futures indexes books that are worth reading? I've read "Futures Made Simple"
> I'm thinking something in terms not of information but strategies for profiting from them. How they differ in movement from stocks etc.  Although I guess much if this understanding will come from watching the markets.
> Any good books would be a good educational supplement.




What do you want to focus on, Traditional T/A, Market Profile, Order Flow, Systematic Trading?


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## -Bevo- (24 May 2013)

The difference in both those charts one looks like the z index the other z futures if
its not that try changing the time on your phone, I run android when I used to watch
US stocks at work late at night the chart would stop updating at midnight (end of day charts)
when I changed my phone time zone to new York it was fine.


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## CanOz (24 May 2013)

-Bevo- said:


> The difference in both those charts one looks like the z index the other z futures if
> its not that try changing the time on your phone, I run android when I used to watch
> US stocks at work late at night the chart would stop updating at midnight (end of day charts)
> when I changed my phone time zone to new York it was fine.




Yeah this is exactly what i thought at first, then i realized he had the same symbol, so i clued onto the ETH/RTH thing. The index tracks the cash which is RTH, the Z can track the extra hours or ETH...

CanOz


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## pavilion103 (4 June 2013)

CanOz said:


> What do you want to focus on, Traditional T/A, Market Profile, Order Flow, Systematic Trading?




Mainly practical trading strategies involving technical analysis. 

I'm starting to learn how these future indexes are different to stocks and there is a lot more emphasis on behavior around support and resistance.

Any good books or articles anyone has read?


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## CanOz (4 June 2013)

I'm a bit biased but i think you could do allot worse than gaining a good understanding of the auction market through Market Profile if you want to trade futures. At the very least you would be able to identify levels to pay attention to. Mind Over Markets by Jim Dalton....If you get through this, then Markets in Profile tie everything together nicely.

CanOz


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## pavilion103 (16 June 2013)

I'll check it out CanOz. 


I came across a good one also. I've got the Al Brooks collection: trends, ranges, reversals. I've had them sitting on my shelf for a little while. 

I began reading the Reversals book because this is most applicable to the way I have been trading the FTSE. I was glad to see that most of the charts used and examples are for futures indexes (E-mini S&P).

This looks like a little gold mine which was just sitting there on my shelf for some time.

It's a bit of a heavy read for me. Just over 70 pages in.


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## CanOz (16 June 2013)

Yeah, I really Al Brook's stuff too. I've seen a few of his webinars on YouTube. Very straight forward if you been technically inclined for a while. 

Guys like Radge, Brooks and Dalton are the type I find myself mentally nodding my head to, really resonates with me.

CanOz


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## tech/a (16 June 2013)

CanOz said:


> Yeah, I really Al Brook's stuff too. I've seen a few of his webinars on YouTube. Very straight forward if you been technically inclined for a while.
> 
> Guys like Radge, Brooks and Dalton are the type I find myself mentally nodding my head to, really resonates with me.
> 
> CanOz





Dalton very good.


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## CanOz (16 June 2013)

tech/a said:


> Dalton very good.




Yeah, I want to get to one of his seminars before he retires, just so I could say I've been....living legend.

CanOz


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## pavilion103 (16 June 2013)

I haven't come across his stuff. 

I just went on his website. 

Have you done any of his DVD courses?


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## tech/a (16 June 2013)

http://www.cmegroup.com/education/steidlmayer-volume-strips-video.html

Worth a look but you'll need 90 min


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## CanOz (17 June 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> I haven't come across his stuff.
> 
> I just went on his website.
> 
> Have you done any of his DVD courses?




No I'd done the CME stuff that Tech had suggested the read the two Dalton books, which I digested easier than steidlmayer...now I subscribe to Dalton's daily analysis, which I try and compare to my own. 

These Chicago style guys seemed to be able to articulate the auction market process really well.

CanOz


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