# Guns



## Glen48 (29 March 2012)

I assume this has been mention before but wondering on the general feeling with gun owner ship.
In USA gun companies have stopped taking orders as they can't keep up with the demand, one company need to deliver 1 million ASAP.
 December was the biggest month for gun sale. 
Women owning guns has risen from 13 to 26% all must think bad times are coming.
Trouble is if others have a gun/s should you own one plus there are other way to kill or harm some one other than owning a gun.
 Will this increase pressure on the OZ public to try and arm themselves as the economy tanks.
 Is owning a gun good or bad.


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## rumpole (29 March 2012)

Glen48 said:


> Is owning a gun good or bad.




I own a gun but only because I live on the land and need to shoot vermin sometimes (those dang National Party pollies ).

The US is a crazy place. I saw a trailer for a show called "Sons of Guns" on pay TV. Some rednecks in the US will make you any gun you like to order. Assault machine guns or whatever. That's going too far. However there is a point of view that if law abiding citizens could own guns freely it might deter the thugs from breaking in to your house or mugging you on the street. I don't know about the licensing system in the US, you seem to be able to buy guns on the Internet. That many guns around can only lead to trouble.


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## MrBurns (29 March 2012)

A smile can get you a long way, a smile and a gun gets you a lot further.

John Howard was smart to get rid of them, though the bogan population has exploded as a result.


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## CanOz (29 March 2012)

I have a ton of respect for countries like Canada and Australia that have reasonable gun laws. If you hunt, you can own and use a gun within the law. 

The US is a basket case. You need to own a gun because every knucklehead owns a gun! 

In many parts of Canada and Australia we still leave our doors unlocked....well, Canada anyway....not sure how many do that in Australia now.

If you want toown a gun for hunting, fine. Pass a course and get a permit. 

CanOz


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## Starcraftmazter (29 March 2012)

I never understand Americans. What's the point of this record gun buying and owning so many guns if you are never going to revolt against the most corrupt regime in the history of mankind?

Americans


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## Miss Hale (29 March 2012)

I was totally opposed to them when I was living in the city but after a spell in the country I can see there are valid reasons for owning and using a gun. 



MrBurns said:


> A smile can get you a long way, a smile and a gun gets you a lot further.




That reminds me of a saying I read somewhere, 'An armed society is a polite society'


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## MrBurns (29 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I never understand Americans. What's the point of this record gun buying and owning so many guns if you are never going to revolt against the most corrupt regime in the history of mankind?
> Americans




Fair enough lets tell the Yanks to get lost, oh by the way North Korea is aiming their next missile in our direction, what's that ? Pleeeeease come and help us Uncle Sam ?


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## Bill M (29 March 2012)

I am against them too. Cops, farmers with licenses, gun collectors with licenses excepted.

I was just watching the news tonight of how a 17 year old black boy in the USA was shot and killed by a neighbourhood watch guy who thought he was suspicious as he was wearing a hoody. He was only coming home from the shops, did nothing wrong and he was killed for nothing, the Police have not yet charged the shooter. Keep them out of the hands of the general public.

Watch the video.


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## MrBurns (29 March 2012)

We have a lot to thank John Howard for in this regard, can you imagine what our streets would be like now if he hadn't acted ?


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## McLovin (29 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> We have a lot to thank John Howard for in this regard, can you imagine what our streets would be like now if he hadn't acted ?




Largely the same. The research suggests that the gun laws have not actually done much if anything, gun crime was in long run decline before the laws.

That being said, I don't see why anyone in a city needs a firearm (unless they're sporting shooters etc) and I don't see why anyone at all needs a hand gun.


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## MrBurns (29 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> Largely the same. The research suggests that the gun laws have not actually done much if anything, gun crime was in long run decline before the laws.
> 
> That being said, I don't see why anyone in a city needs a firearm (unless they're sporting shooters etc) and I don't see why anyone at all needs a hand gun.




The argument that crims would have guns anyway doesn't work, the mass killings in the US are perpetrated by the mentally ill, they wouldnt have guns under the laws we have.


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## McLovin (29 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> The argument that crims would have guns anyway doesn't work, the mass killings in the US are perpetrated by the mentally ill, they wouldnt have guns under the laws we have.




How does that change the fact that gun homicide was declining with or without the laws? You don't actually believe that the majority of gun homicides are related to mass killings do you? Most of it is black on black and gang related.

America's gun laws can't be compared to any other countries.


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## MrBurns (29 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> How does that change the fact that gun homicide was declining with or without the laws? You don't actually believe that the majority of gun homicides are related to mass killings do you?
> .




No just the infamous ones, but having guns out of the hands of the general population MUST mean less gun problems.


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## IFocus (29 March 2012)

Domestic violence with a gun is to me the worst situation.


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## McLovin (29 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> No just the infamous ones, but having guns out of the hands of the general population MUST mean less gun problems.




I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying though that with or without the current laws gun crime was never a serious problem in Australia and was falling. It's unlikely the streets would be any less unsafe.


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## MrBurns (29 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> It's unlikely the streets would be any less unsafe.




Knife crime which is rampant would be gun crime.


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## McLovin (29 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Knife crime *which is rampant* would be gun crime.






			
				use of knife in murder and attempted murder said:
			
		

> Murder	Attempted murder
> n	%	n	%
> 2001 	90 	28.9 	151 	33.0
> 2002 	72 	22.7 	142 	35.5
> ...






			
				use of knives in robbery said:
			
		

> Year	n	%
> 2001 	5,982 	22.5
> 2002 	4,051 	19.3
> 2003 	3,748 	19.0
> ...




http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/401-420/tandi417.aspx

It looks pretty static to me.


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## Glen48 (29 March 2012)

DALLAS (Reuters) - A 76-year-old Texas man was charged with murder for shooting his wife and two dogs after one of the animals pooped in the house.
Police arrested Michael Stephen Stolz after a five-hour standoff at the man's home in the Dallas suburb of Lewisville late Tuesday. He was charged with murder in the shooting death of his wife, Bernice Stolz, and remained in the Denton County Jail on Wednesday on a $250,000 bond.
Stolz told officers he shot his 49-year-old wife and the couple's two dogs after the German Shepherd mix defecated on the floor on Saturday, said Lewisville Police Capt. Kevin Deaver. He told officers that he shot the dog, then their other dog, a Rottweiler, then his wife, who was screaming because of the shootings of the dogs, Deaver said


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## MrBurns (29 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/401-420/tandi417.aspx
> 
> It looks pretty static to me.




There's a lot more knife crime on the streets.
Every punk here thinks he's a black rapper, if they had access to guns it would be mayhem.


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## McLovin (29 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> There's a lot more knife crime on the streets.
> Every punk here thinks he's a black rapper, if they had access to guns it would be mayhem.




You need to get out more.


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## MrBurns (29 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> You need to get out more.




I get out plenty thanks, the street culture now is much worse than it ever was, if they had guns they would use them no problem about that.


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## Bill M (29 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> I get out plenty thanks, the street culture now is much worse than it ever was, if they had guns they would use them no problem about that.




They are already using them in Western Sydney, nearly a shooting everyday. Mostly gangs and over drugs.


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## DB008 (29 March 2012)

Bill M said:


> They are already using them in Western Sydney, nearly a shooting everyday. Mostly gangs and over drugs.




l think these knucklehead drug dealers (the ones causing all the trouble in Western Sydney), if caught with an illegal gun/firearm, it should be mandatory sentencing.


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## Julia (29 March 2012)

Glen48 said:


> DALLAS (Reuters) - A 76-year-old Texas man was charged with murder for shooting his wife and two dogs after one of the animals pooped in the house.
> Police arrested Michael Stephen Stolz after a five-hour standoff at the man's home in the Dallas suburb of Lewisville late Tuesday. He was charged with murder in the shooting death of his wife, Bernice Stolz, and remained in the Denton County Jail on Wednesday on a $250,000 bond.
> Stolz told officers he shot his 49-year-old wife and the couple's two dogs after the German Shepherd mix defecated on the floor on Saturday, said Lewisville Police Capt. Kevin Deaver. He told officers that he shot the dog, then their other dog, a Rottweiler, then his wife, who was screaming because of the shootings of the dogs, Deaver said



This is a horrible story, but if the bloke hadn't had a gun he'd have found some other method of doing away with the dogs and his wife.  This was about a very unbalanced individual.  You could even say it was better that the three were killed quickly because he'd have despatched them anyway and probably by some more drawn out and ghastly means.

So mentally ill and socially maladjusted people will always create mayhem.  Perhaps the easy availability of guns in the US make it easier for them.
I'm glad we don't have the same free availability here.


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## Starcraftmazter (30 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Fair enough lets tell the Yanks to get lost, oh by the way North Korea is aiming their next missile in our direction, what's that ? Pleeeeease come and help us Uncle Sam ?




Yep, NK has nothing better to do but fire missiles at little old Australia on the other half of the globe.

Seriously, you make me lose faith in people when you exaggerate and over-sensationalise things even more than media does.


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## drsmith (30 March 2012)

I'm currently paying a flood levy.

I don't want to pay another gun levy.


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## MrBurns (30 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Yep, NK has nothing better to do but fire missiles at little old Australia on the other half of the globe.
> 
> Seriously, you make me lose faith in people when you exaggerate and over-sensationalise things even more than media does.




Oh sorry no problem, hang on , the other half of the globe would be very interesting to North Korea or anyone for that matter ref: WW11

Seriously, you make me lose faith in people when you trivialise things that are obviously of concern to Australia, but I guess you're just a lay back sort of guy


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## rumpole (30 March 2012)

> This is a horrible story, but if the bloke hadn't had a gun he'd have found some other method of doing away with the dogs and his wife.




Possibly, but having a gun made it a lot easier. It's more simple to pull a trigger than stab a dog or person to death if you could get attacked in return.


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## MrBurns (30 March 2012)

rumpole said:


> Possibly, but having a gun made it a lot easier. It's more simple to pull a trigger than stab a dog or person to death if you could get attacked in return.




Precisely and obvious to everyone except the gun lobby.


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## CanOz (30 March 2012)

rumpole said:


> Possibly, but having a gun made it a lot easier. It's more simple to pull a trigger than stab a dog or person to death if you could get attacked in return.



 good point....guns let one kill somewhat remotely.....almost as good as drones with guns!

CanOz


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## McLovin (30 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Yep, NK has nothing better to do but fire missiles at little old Australia on the other half of the globe.




Exactly. NK is not stupid. When the world ignores NK like a stroppy attention seeking child they'll make some outlandish claim. The chance of them wasting a missile on Australia is so remote it's not even worth thinking about. NK does what China tells it to do, because China ultimately controls NK. From the NK perspective, America and Japan are the source of all NK's woes.


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## MrBurns (30 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> Exactly. NK is not stupid. When the world ignores NK like a stroppy attention seeking child they'll make some outlandish claim. The chance of them wasting a missile on Australia is so remote it's not even worth thinking about. NK does what China tells it to do, because China ultimately controls NK. From the NK perspective, America and Japan are the source of all NK's woes.




Yeah what would they want with a very large island, plenty of resources and room to populate and a dumber than dumb political syatem that allows idiots to run it


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## ajjack (30 March 2012)

McLovin said:


> Exactly. NK is not stupid. When the world ignores NK like a stroppy attention seeking child they'll make some outlandish claim. The chance of them wasting a missile on Australia is so remote it's not even worth thinking about. NK does what China tells it to do, because China ultimately controls NK. From the NK perspective, America and Japan are the source of all NK's woes.




You forgot to include SK there.


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## Starcraftmazter (30 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Yeah what would they want with a very large island, plenty of resources and room to populate and a dumber than dumb political syatem that allows idiots to run it




You just can't be serious.

Also forgot to say that NK itself is extremely resource rich, they just can't do anything about it. Let alone invade a country on the other side of the world.


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## McLovin (30 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Yeah what would they want with a very large island, plenty of resources and room to populate and a dumber than dumb political syatem that allows idiots to run it




Yeah, NK can barely feed itself but they are going to project their "power" with a few Taepodongs, and no blue water navy 10,000 km's South. Good luck with that.


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## McLovin (30 March 2012)

ajjack said:


> You forgot to include SK there.




According to NK, SK is just the brainwashed brother. Japan and America are the bogeymen.


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## MrBurns (30 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> You just can't be serious.
> 
> Also forgot to say that NK itself is extremely resource rich, they just can't do anything about it. Let alone invade a country on the other side of the world.




Idiots with big sticks are dangerous, the USA might be the bogey man but we're an ally, without them we'd be history.


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## Starcraftmazter (30 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Idiots with big sticks are dangerous, the USA might be the bogey man but we're an ally, without them we'd be history.




That's precisely the sort of paranoia why people in USA have guns. A country of paranoid people.


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## MrBurns (30 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> That's precisely the sort of paranoia why people in USA have guns. A country of paranoid people.




Stick your head back in the sand and when we do need help one day call for the US from your hiding place. Not paranoia just a bit of reality try it some time.


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## Starcraftmazter (30 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Stick your head back in the sand and when we do need help one day call for the US from your hiding place. Not paranoia just a bit of reality try it some time.




We are in the middle of nowhere.

Switzerland has been in the middle of Europe, in the middle of countless wars and world wars. Remind me, how many times in the last 200 years has it ever been invaded?


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## MrBurns (30 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> We are in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> Switzerland has been in the middle of Europe, in the middle of countless wars and world wars. Remind me, how many times in the last 200 years has it ever been invaded?




Have you ever met a Swiss person ?
If we had put a colony of them into Darwin the Japanese woudn't have bothered us.


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

“Those who hammer their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not.” 
― Thomas Jefferson


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

“The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.” 
― Thomas Jefferson


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

“The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.” 
― Thomas Jefferson


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” 
― Thomas Jefferson, 


i think you should be getting the idea by now!


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## rumpole (30 March 2012)

bandicoot76 said:


> “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
> ― Thomas Jefferson,
> 
> 
> i think you should be getting the idea by now!




There are arguments on both sides. You have to try to limit the amount of guns in society otherwise you will have shoot outs in the streets. "The tyranny of government" is over the top in today's society and anyone preaching the need for armed rebellion is seriously mental. The answer is to limit ownership of weapons to those who need them for honest purposes, register all guns and make the ownership of unregistered weapons an offence carrying a mandatory gaol sentence. We have a reasonable system in this country now, no need to change.


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## Glen48 (30 March 2012)

As the economies of countries such as OZ get worse they will be a bigger need for guns selling at a high price therefore machine shops will look at making guns as a source of income.
Using BHP steel of course.

With modern CNC machine and computer aided programmes  it would not be to hard.

Here the Muslims make guns and sell as way to get fund.
 Rumour has it Japan didn't want to invade USA because they knew every one had 2 guns in each room and one in the back pocket.


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

rumpole said:


> There are arguments on both sides. You have to try to limit the amount of guns in society otherwise you will have shoot outs in the streets. "The tyranny of government" is over the top in today's society and anyone preaching the need for armed rebellion is seriously mental. The answer is to limit ownership of weapons to those who need them for honest purposes, register all guns and make the ownership of unregistered weapons an offence carrying a mandatory gaol sentence. We have a reasonable system in this country now, no need to change.




i'm sure german people said the same sort of things pre 1939, like
 "todays society is so safe no one needs to worry about things like freedom or liberty",
 "the govt loves & cares for us, we should trust it has our best interests at heart and not concern ourselves with  such things",
 "'tyranny' is an old fashioned fuddy-duddy word from the dark ages, stuff like that doesnt happen in this day and age" etc etc 

you should educate yourself by talking to the old german immigrants who were living under nazi'ism and eastern bloc/russian immigrants who were living under communism to learn how bad things were and how they didnt just get that way overnight... the totalitarian powers of their respective forms of govt were gradually eased in under the guise of such titles as 'public safety' and 'its for the common good'. 

i have alot of immigrant friends from this era who are very worried because they can see history repeating here, when they hear 'young' naive people who have no experience of such things cry "such things cant happen in todays society" ...the exact same catch-phrase that they had heard said so long ago!

“Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases.” 
― Thomas Jefferson

i suggest you research a little history, open your eyes to current world events and possibly even study a little 'jeffersonist philosophy' before making such comments!

  heres a good link to start you opn your way:http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/1673.Thomas_Jefferson


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

“Those who surrender freedom for security [safety] will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” 
― Thomas Jefferson


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

Glen48 said:


> .
> Rumour has it Japan didn't want to invade USA because they knew every one had 2 guns in each room and one in the back pocket.




its not a rumour its a documented fact mate! and its the same reason why noone messes with switzerland


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## rumpole (30 March 2012)

bandicoot76 said:


> its not a rumour its a documented fact mate! and its the same reason why noone messes with switzerland




OK , you've convinced me. Tomorrow we march on Campbell Newman. You with me brother ?


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## CanOz (30 March 2012)

Is this s serious argument......? Pleeeeease....if a government wanted to exterminate a mass a people in a hurry you think a few pistols, rifles and shotguns will defend?

A clever and truly evil government would use chemical and/or biological warfare at a minimum....

Good grief...

CanOz


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

rumpole said:


> OK , you've convinced me. Tomorrow we march on Campbell Newman. You with me brother ?




sarcasm is lowest form of wit.

 i'm not trying to convince you of anything, personally i dont give two hoots what you think or believe...

 but when you get up on your soap box on these forums sprouting off with things like "limiting firearm ownership will stop gunfights in the streets" and "in modern society government tyranny is nothing we should be concerned about" (not quotes but close enough) then dont be surprised if your called out on it. 

my position is: 'if you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns' 

...i dont really care how many guns there are in the community its way too late for that...face the facts the guns are already out there!!!,

 the crims have their illegal ones and always will while the legal firearm owners, sporting shooters etc are copping all the sh*t due to the criminals actions.  

its simple really... prohibition NEVER WORKS, whether its drugs, alcohol, tobacco, hemp or yes even guns.... it always comes down to supply and demand... whilever there is a demand for guns there will always be a means to supply that demand, be it illegal gun imports, guns stolen from legal owners or homemade guns & ammo manufactured in 'backyard' factories.

 the answer isnt banning them, IT IS MAKING THE PENALTIES FOR USING THEM FOR CRIME SO HARSH THAT NOONE WOULD DARE DO IT!

 well thats my opinion i have come to after researching the issue extensively anyhow!


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## MrBurns (30 March 2012)

bandicoot76 said:


> sarcasm is lowest form of wit.1




Bulldust but you must have a sense of humour to appreciate it.



> i'm not trying to convince you of anything, personally i dont give two hoots what you think or believe...




Then goes on and on to do just that



> well thats my opinion i have come to after researching the issue extensively anyhow!




At the pub no doubt


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## CanOz (30 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Bulldust but you must have a sense of humour to appreciate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




lol@ Mr Burns......good to see you haven't changed a bit Burnsy!


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## MrBurns (30 March 2012)

CanOz said:


> lol@ Mr Burns......good to see you haven't changed a bit Burnsy!




Like shooting fish in a barrell


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

CanOz said:


> Is this s serious argument......? Pleeeeease....if a government wanted to exterminate a mass a people in a hurry you think a few pistols, rifles and shotguns will defend?
> 
> A clever and truly evil government would use chemical and/or biological warfare at a minimum....
> 
> ...




it worked for the vietnamese against both the french & the US, and seems to be working ok for the afghani's as well, they kicked out the brittish, then the russians and now have bogged down the might of the US war-machine for the past ten years and bankrupted the US economy with guerilla warefare fighters armed with just "a few pistols, rifles etc"

not that i EVER want it to come to that situation here because i really dont, it would be horrific, but to deny the fact that it possibly could get to that point, however unlikely, is closing off the possibily of preparing yourself should that situation arise, 

"HOPE FOR THE BEST BUT PREPARE FOR THE WORST" is what i was taught growing up... yes i was a boyscout... no i wasnt molested.


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Bulldust but you must have a sense of humour to appreciate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




not worth a comment


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Like shooting fish in a barrell




i'd take the wisdom of a man like thomas jefferson over a sarcastic fool like you anyday, you and your cronies arent worth my time


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## Bill M (30 March 2012)

bandicoot76 said:


> *i'm sure german people said the same sort of things pre 1939*
> 
> *i have alot of immigrant friends from this era* who are very worried because they can see history repeating here, when they hear 'young' naive people who have no experience of such things cry "such things cant happen in todays society" ...the exact same catch-phrase that they had heard said so long ago!




So with all these "immigrant friends" that would make you 80 years old, is that about right?



> its simple really... prohibition NEVER WORKS,




It would have worked in my earlier POST # 8. Just to remind you, an unarmed 17 y/o black teenager was shot dead in the USA on suspicion by a white *ARMED* neighbourhood watch guy. If he wasn't armed he wouldn't have been able to shoot him. Just think about that murdered kids parents for a few lousy seconds.




> the answer isnt banning them




The answer is totally restricting them to those who really need them, Police, Defence Force Members, Farmers - Collectors - sporting shooters all with licenses and DEFINITELY no one with a criminal record of any sort.



> , IT IS MAKING THE PENALTIES FOR USING THEM FOR CRIME SO HARSH THAT NOONE WOULD DARE DO IT!




Totally agree.



> it worked for the vietnamese against both the french & the US, and seems to be working ok for the afghani's as well, they kicked out the brittish, then the russians and now have bogged down the might of the US war-machine for the past ten years and bankrupted the US economy with guerilla warefare fighters armed with just "a few pistols, rifles etc"
> 
> *not that i EVER want it to come to that situation here because i really dont, it would be horrific*, but to deny the fact that it possibly could get to that point, however unlikely, is closing off the possibily of preparing yourself should that situation arise,





That's what we have the Police Force for and should it get worse then the Defence Force is there to do that job. Or do you think they will not act in our interest?



> i'd take the wisdom of a man like thomas jefferson over a sarcastic fool like you anyday, you and your cronies arent worth my time




Jefferson is a dead American, Burnsy is a cool dude Aussie and well respected on ASF....... I go for Burnsy!


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## rumpole (30 March 2012)

> Jefferson is a dead American, Burnsy is a cool dude Aussie and well respected on ASF....... I go for Burnsy!




Burnsy for PM !!!


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## MrBurns (30 March 2012)

rumpole said:


> Burnsy for PM !!!




I humbly accept the nomination and would all donations please be passed by backhander in a brown paper bag in the time honored tradition.

Rumpy your planning permit has just been approved and Bill M of course you can put a 
3rd story on your block of flats don't give the parking requirements a second thought.


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## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

Bill M said:


> So with all these "immigrant friends" that would make you 80 years old, is that about right?:




i'm not 80 but my german friends are and have shared their experiences with me since i was a boy

i also have a dutch mate in his 80s who survived as an orphan on the docks of potsdam under nazi occupation who has shared his experiences with me on many occasions and even shown me the scars left on him from his ordeals in his quest just to survive

i have both serbian & croation friends in their 60s who have told me of their ordeals

a ukranian mate in his 70s who told me of his hardships under communism

so dont get all high and mighty trying to discredit my position in a sarcastic ad hominem attack....... the points you made in rest of your post i have covered before and couldnt be bothered repeating my position to an obviously uninterested audience.

lets just hope that the current good times (post WWII) last because you people would obviously be totally unprepared to face any hardship and would be the first ones to squeal 'help me, help me' should the sh*t ever hit the fan.


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## Bill M (30 March 2012)

bandicoot76 said:


> i'm not 80 but my german friends are and have shared their experiences with me since i was a boy
> 
> i also have a dutch mate in his 80s who survived as an orphan on the docks of potsdam under nazi occupation who has shared his experiences with me on many occasions and even shown me the scars left on him from his ordeals in his quest just to survive
> 
> ...




Ok, so you have friends who have experienced the horrors of war, persecution and communism, I feel for them too but we do live in Australia and we do not have these threats. Whether you like it or not this question must be answered. Do you not have faith in our Police forces or the Defence Forces to sort these problems should they arise?



> .... the points you made in rest of your post i have covered before and couldnt be bothered repeating my position to an obviously uninterested audience.




You haven't covered them here.



> lets just hope that the current good times (post WWII) last because you people would obviously be totally unprepared to face any hardship and would be the first ones to squeal 'help me, help me' should the sh*t ever hit the fan.




Where will the hardship come from and why do you think a fully complimented armed forces won't be able to deal with it?


----------



## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

you are obviously not really interested in my posts other than to rip the p*ss out of them and im not a masochist so i couldnt be bothered wasting my time on a pointless exercise... all the answers can be found by taking your own advice and really understsanding the quote that you have pasted at the bottom of your posts:

"There's one thing we have learnt from history, it's that we don't learn from history."

do some research and i might be tempted to have a proper discussion with you... but probly not, as from my experience it takes a major shock for people to actually consider that their own personal perspective may be biased or limited in scope


----------



## bandicoot76 (30 March 2012)

my last post on this thread:

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” 
― Thomas Jefferson


----------



## CanOz (30 March 2012)

bandicoot76 said:


> my last post on this thread:
> 
> “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”
> ― Thomas Jefferson




Good on ya coot! I may not agree with your views but I would defend to the death, your right to express them!

CanOz


----------



## Julia (30 March 2012)

> The answer is totally restricting them to those who really need them, Police, Defence Force Members, Farmers - Collectors - sporting shooters all with licenses and DEFINITELY no one with a criminal record of any sort.



Bill, do you seriously think people with a criminal record would be unable to lay their hands on firearms just because they cannot access them legally?  Surely you're not so naive?



> Jefferson is a dead American, Burnsy is a cool dude Aussie and well respected on ASF....... I go for Burnsy!



With no disrespect to Mr Burns, if you dismiss the wisdom of anyone who is no longer living you're making a huge mistake.  Much of Jefferson's advice is entirely applicable today imo.



bandicoot76 said:


> i'm not 80 but my german friends are and have shared their experiences with me since i was a boy
> 
> i also have a dutch mate in his 80s who survived as an orphan on the docks of potsdam under nazi occupation who has shared his experiences with me on many occasions and even shown me the scars left on him from his ordeals in his quest just to survive
> 
> ...



Yes, let's remember that e.g. the Baltic states, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia, were only liberated from Soviet oppression in 1991 when the Soviet Union fell apart.

Unless you have known people who lived under this sort of regime, I don't think it's possible for you to understand what they went through.

Imo Bandicoot is expressing a legitimate view, though perhaps a bit removed from the topic of carrying guns, and I find it a bit hard to see why his genuinely held and expressed remarks should be treated with such derision, sarcasm and scorn.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (30 March 2012)

Julia said:


> Much of Jefferson's advice is entirely applicable today imo.




You know, I couldn't agree more. Here are my favourites;



> If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.






> I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...


----------



## Glen48 (30 March 2012)

The main drawback with owning a gun is unless you are like Jesse James and have it in a holster so you have it with you there s not much point in owning the thing, if some one turns up at your door with a gun and you have to go get the key to unlock the safe/gun cabinet it could be all over for you and you could be all over walls and ceiling.
 Maybe that's why Yanks need to have one in every room and car.


----------



## bandicoot76 (31 March 2012)

Julia said:


> Imo Bandicoot is expressing a legitimate view, though perhaps a bit removed from the topic of carrying guns, and I find it a bit hard to see why his genuinely held and expressed remarks should be treated with such derision, sarcasm and scorn.




ok one last post since julia has posted a positive response....just to clarify my position:

from my perspective burns, bill & co have an irrational fear of an inanimate object.. the gun...   
whereas my position is that i feel i am rationally fearful of any person, or group of people, who are capable of using that said gun, or any other weapon, to carry out acts of violence against another person or group of people. be it an individual, group or even government who is responsible.

in a simpler way it boils down to the fact that i am unconcerned about a civilian having a rifle to shoot a rabbit for the pot, but i am concerned about a criminal with a machine-pistol, an over zealous cop with a taser or even a government who decides to enact martial law against its own citizens as a response to internal political protest or peaceful dissent!

bill & co's view is that a gun makes a criminal lethal, my view is that the criminal makes the gun lethal... not only the criminal but anyone psychotic enough to use it against a fellow human being without just cause. that includes govt employees!

you see the difference? bill, burns and co are labelling 90% of the community as being so unstable that they have the potential to become a criminal/psycho/safety threat should they ever even be allowed access to guns,  .... i'm saying that i dont care if 90% of the community have guns as long as the 10% of the community who are prepared to use them to harm others, such as criminals or people with psychiatric problems, are excluded from access to not only guns but ANY form of weaponry. thats where jails and asylums come into play.


the end!


----------



## AbrasiveCamel (31 March 2012)

Australian gun laws are disgusting. Heavily restrict people with a legitimate interest in gun ownership and do not a single thing to curb illegal firearms.

Although still restrictive New Zealand has a far superior model of gun control.


----------



## Bill M (31 March 2012)

Julia said:


> Bill, do you seriously think people with a criminal record would be unable to lay their hands on firearms just because they cannot access them legally?  Surely you're not so naive?




Of course not, criminals can obtain anything with complete disregard to the law. However making guns available legally to them just doesn't make sense.




> With no disrespect to Mr Burns, if you dismiss the wisdom of anyone who is no longer living you're making a huge mistake.  Much of Jefferson's advice is entirely applicable today imo.




Fair enough but I have no interest in anything he had to say.




> Yes, let's remember that e.g. the Baltic states, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia, were only liberated from Soviet oppression in 1991 when the Soviet Union fell apart.
> 
> *Unless you have known people who lived under this sort of regime, I don't think it's possible for you to understand what they went through.
> *




Yes I do people like this but we are talking about guns here and I know very well what they went through.


----------



## Bill M (31 March 2012)

bandicoot76 said:


> you see the difference? bill, burns and co are labelling 90% of the community as being so unstable that they have the potential to become a criminal/psycho/safety threat should they ever even be allowed access to guns,  .... i'm saying that i dont care if 90% of the community have guns as long as the 10% of the community who are prepared to use them to harm others, such as criminals or people with psychiatric problems, are excluded from access to not only guns but ANY form of weaponry. thats where jails and asylums come into play.




You are entitled to your view and I am entitled to mine. Letting the general public own guns is unnecessary and stupid. Just ask any Police Officer if they think it is a good idea to have the whole community armed. They would be totally against it and so am I. I can just imagine it, armed neighbourhood watch guys going around taking the law into there own hands just like the 17 year old boy that was shot coming home from the shops, no thank you. Post 8, click here.


----------



## MrBurns (31 March 2012)

bandicoot76 said:


> not worth a comment




But you did

If you think having guns will keep the peace you're crazy, why, if I had one I would have shot a dozen people by now myself


----------



## Glen48 (31 March 2012)

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/17136115/two-charged-in-connection-with-attempted-murder
 and then you get all the grey areas liike this which ties up court,. poliice, and other officials..


----------



## MrBurns (31 March 2012)

AND another thing, we aren't allowed to have fireworks these days and you think guns are ok ?


----------



## AbrasiveCamel (31 March 2012)

Bill M said:


> You are entitled to your view and I am entitled to mine. Letting the general public own guns is unnecessary and stupid.




Why should people be disallowed from owning and using guns responsibly?



> Just ask any Police Officer if they think it is a good idea to have the whole community armed. They would be totally against it and so am I.




Who cares what police think? They're job is to enforce law not make law or critically analyse it. I'm sure if paramedics had their way motorbikes would be outlawed.



> I can just imagine it, armed neighbourhood watch guys going around taking the law into there own hands just like the 17 year old boy that was shot coming home from the shops, no thank you. Post 8, click here.




So in other words you are imagining the US and not any number of other nations that have responsible gun ownership and low rates of gun and violent crime?


----------



## MrBurns (31 March 2012)

AbrasiveCamel said:


> Why should people be disallowed from owning and using guns responsibly?




You cant have dangerous dogs or fireworks, you cant even have the odd bomb lying around the house, so you cant have guns either, get over it.



> Who cares what police think? They're job is to enforce law not make law or critically analyse it. I'm sure if paramedics had their way motorbikes would be outlawed.




The police know plenty that you don't.



> So in other words you are imagining the US and not any number of other nations that have responsible gun ownership and low rates of gun and violent crime?




This is Australia we have a generation of angry drunks on our hands, they wont be allowed to have guns. Go buy a Play Station.


----------



## rumpole (31 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> If you think having guns will keep the peace you're crazy, why, if I had one I would have shot a dozen people by now myself




There are more than that in the Labor Cabinet Burnsy, you would need 2 at least


----------



## McLovin (31 March 2012)

Thomas Jefferson was a slave owning revolutionary. While I don't disagree with many of his ideas a lot of them are outdated. We don't live in colonial America, we are not trying to become independent of a country 3000 miles away, we live in cities not the country. I seriously doubt the framers of the US Constitution intended "a well maintained militia" to include inner-city black kids with hand guns running around shooting eachother.

I never would listen to anything the police say. On Thursday I saw a new item about them wanting to establish a DNA database of everybody. No thanks.


----------



## MrBurns (31 March 2012)

rumpole said:


> There are more than that in the Labor Cabinet Burnsy, you would need 2 at least




Nope I just use a feather duster on them


----------



## AbrasiveCamel (31 March 2012)

MrBurns said:


> You cant have dangerous dogs or fireworks, you cant even have the odd bomb lying around the house, so you cant have guns either, get over it.




A firearm is controllable. 'Dangerous' dogs and fireworks are less controllable.

You actually can have guns so I don't need to 'get over it'. What I need to get over - or work to change - is the absurdity of Australian gun control which again, for idiots such as yourself, does nothing to stop guns in the hands of criminals.



> The police know plenty that you don't.




Really? Maybe I'm a genius and an ex-police officer? What a ****ing idiot response. The fact is police are police. Not criminologists, sociologists, legislators, researchers etc. Their views on gun law are about as valid as paramedics views on car licenses.



> This is Australia we have a generation of angry drunks on our hands, they wont be allowed to have guns. Go buy a Play Station.




Nor should they be. Which says nothing about restricting the rights of sound individuals responsibly owning and using firearms. I've got a PS3 and a gun so I'll enjoy both.


----------



## Julia (31 March 2012)

Abrasive Camel, could you share with us why you want/need to have a gun?


----------



## MrBurns (31 March 2012)

AbrasiveCamel said:


> A firearm is controllable. 'Dangerous' dogs and fireworks are less controllable.
> 
> You actually can have guns so I don't need to 'get over it'. What I need to get over - or work to change - is the absurdity of Australian gun control which again, for idiots such as yourself, does nothing to stop guns in the hands of criminals.




You're a simpleton and prime  example of why gun laws should be tightened further.



> Really? Maybe I'm a genius and an ex-police officer? What a ****ing idiot response. The fact is police are police. Not criminologists, sociologists, legislators, researchers etc. Their views on gun law are about as valid as paramedics views on car licenses.




You're a simpleton and prime  example of why gun laws should be tightened further.



> Nor should they be. Which says nothing about restricting the rights of sound individuals responsibly owning and using firearms. I've got a PS3 and a gun so I'll enjoy both.




You're a simpleton and prime example of why gun laws should be tightened further.


----------



## disarray (1 April 2012)

MrBurns said:


> You cant have dangerous dogs or fireworks, you cant even have the odd bomb lying around the house, so you cant have guns either, get over it.
> 
> The police know plenty that you don't.
> 
> This is Australia we have a generation of angry drunks on our hands, they wont be allowed to have guns. Go buy a Play Station.




thanks mr burns for taking the time out of your busy schedule to tell us all how we should think and being such a protective and caring nanny. it is reassuring to know that as people's obligations of personal responsibility continue to be eroded through today's "everyone's a winner!" relativist zeitgeist, we have people like you in the government, the bureaucracy, and on internet forums to protect people from themselves and regulate everyone's thoughts, activities and perceptions. why go to all the trouble of expecting people to exercise sound judgement, common sense, personal responsibility, or even be held accountable for their actions when we can just coddle everyone and ban everything that could hurt our poor precious snowflakes?

guns? fireworks? dangerous dogs? cigarettes? alcohol? fatty foods? fast cars? gambling? ban them all. what a utopia it could be!

p.s. that was sarcasm and holier than thou social engineers like you burns are more dangerous to society than a million responsible, respectable gun owners, dog handlers or parents letting off some firecrackers in the backyard once a year.



			
				MrBurns said:
			
		

> You're a simpleton and prime example of why gun laws should be tightened further




way to be a douche


----------



## MrBurns (1 April 2012)

disarray said:


> thanks mr burns for taking the time out of your busy schedule to tell us all how we should think and being such a protective and caring nanny. it is reassuring to know that as people's obligations of personal responsibility continue to be eroded through today's "everyone's a winner!" relativist zeitgeist, we have people like you in the government, the bureaucracy, and on internet forums to protect people from themselves and regulate everyone's thoughts, activities and perceptions. why go to all the trouble of expecting people to exercise sound judgement, common sense, personal responsibility, or even be held accountable for their actions when we can just coddle everyone and ban everything that could hurt our poor precious snowflakes?
> 
> guns? fireworks? dangerous dogs? cigarettes? alcohol? fatty foods? fast cars? gambling? ban them all. what a utopia it could be!
> 
> p.s. that was sarcasm and holier than thou social engineers like you burns are more dangerous to society than a million responsible, respectable gun owners, dog handlers or parents letting off some firecrackers in the backyard once a year.




You see we need these laws to protect decent people from the likes of you.

You would have every ratbag in the country fully armed and ready to make history, you are a lightweight thinker at best


----------



## disarray (1 April 2012)

keep on ranting. your one dimensional thought process and unjustified sense of smug self-superiority demonstrate your intellectual mediocrity more than any internet forum bitch slapping i can deliver ever will.


----------



## MrBurns (1 April 2012)

disarray said:


> keep on ranting. your one dimensional thought process and unjustified smug sense of self-superiority demonstrate your intellectual mediocrity more than any internet forum bitch slapping i can deliver ever will.




A thread like this will attract nut cases such as yourself, odds on you have a pitt bull as well.

I like guns but if I wanted to own a handgun I'd join a gun club, why dont you do that or would the police check prevent it ?


----------



## disarray (1 April 2012)

MrBurns said:


> A thread like this will attract nut cases such as yourself, odds on you have a pitt bull as well.
> 
> I like guns but if I wanted to own a handgun I'd join a gun club, why dont you do that or would the police check prevent it ?




i own plenty of guns. police checks all passed fine thank you. i'm also a cat person.

watch out with those wild haymakers burnsy, you'll end up clobbering yourself one of these days.


----------



## MrBurns (1 April 2012)

disarray said:


> i own plenty of guns. police checks all passed fine thank you. i'm also a cat person.
> watch out with those wild haymakers burnsy, you'll end up clobbering yourself one of these days.




I'm a cat person too.
Those police checks are slack aren't they.
Don't shoot yourself in the foot now, with all your guns n' all


----------



## disarray (1 April 2012)

MrBurns said:


> Those police checks are slack aren't they




dunno. you tell me, you're apparently the one with the inside info.



			
				MrBurns said:
			
		

> Don't shoot yourself in the foot now, with all your guns n' all




no probs burnsy. i did my training course and practice responsible firearms handling so i'm pretty sure my foot will be ok. thanks for your concern though, i'm sure its genuine.


----------



## MrBurns (1 April 2012)

disarray said:


> dunno. you tell me, you're apparently the one with the inside info.
> no probs burnsy. i did my training course and practice responsible firearms handling so i'm pretty sure my foot will be ok. thanks for your concern though, i'm sure its genuine.




Where can you use those things ? 
Firing range ? 
A bit boring isn't it ?

I like the machinery of guns the oil etc bit like trains or cars.


----------



## Glen48 (1 April 2012)

First of I agree with Howard on Gun control that was about the only decent legislation introduced into Parliament in the last 40 yrs , however living over here were the locals are as Brain wash as USA  guns are seen as some form of phallic symbol and a lot of ex army hand guns and rifles are around left over from the wars.
 So my problems they have one so I need one but if some one came in shooting it would take me 5 minutes to get the thing making it useless to own.

There has been more people killed in USA than all the wars put together.
 The NRA controls the voters so there is no change of stopping it.


----------



## MrBurns (1 April 2012)

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms


----------



## Glen48 (1 April 2012)

I had to go to divorces to get OZ up near the top of a list.
 On corruption I was lead to believable New Guinea was almost at the top and I see the Philippines don't get a mention so wonder how accurate the list is.


----------



## disarray (1 April 2012)

bench rest range for target shooting. hunting for ferals and non-natives (see: food) on the property. trap shooting with the shotty (lots of fun). plinking with the air rifle. black powder for some 18th century boomstick noise.

a gun is a tool and can also be used for recreation. i agree firearms should be regulated, people should be educated, trained and cleared for ownership, and the firearms should be stored securely. people should be given responsibility and they should act accordingly. no one is advocating handing out handguns and assault rifles from the back of a truck to anyone who wants one.

the sporting shooters association of australia is very active in promoting shooting as a sport and consistently advocates safe storage, responsible use and sensible legislation regarding the use of firearms. HERE is the SSAA press release page where you can look up some facts and figures (rather than "feelings" and emotions) on gun use and land management in australia. for example -



			
				SSAA Press Release 24/8/2010 said:
			
		

> Claims that the majority of firearms used by criminals originate from private licensed citizens are plainly wrong and are not supported by independent research bodies, such as the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC).
> 
> In fact, AIC senior research analyst Samantha Bricknell has previously stated that many guns used in crime and traded to other criminals originate from the ‘grey market’, comprising firearms that were never registered or firearms that had been disabled but made operable again.
> 
> ...




personal responsibility. social obligation. common sense. accountability. freedom of opinion. concepts that seem to have fallen by the wayside in discussions on social issues.


----------



## Calliope (1 April 2012)

Julia said:


> Abrasive Camel, could you share with us why you want/need to have a gun?




A hand gun is useful if you need to make an urgent final exit.


----------



## MrBurns (1 April 2012)

Target shooting ok but I wouldnt shoot an animal.

The gun laws now allow you to do everything you want don't they ?

I'm not concerned with crims and guns they'll get them anyway and mostly shoot each other, it's guns in every home thats not on, people get unhinged all the time and it's best if there isnt a gun lying around.

Education cant fix that.


----------



## MrBurns (1 April 2012)

Calliope said:


> A hand gun is useful if you need to make an urgent final exit.




Yes but you might make that call too soon if you had a gun with you all the time.


----------



## DB008 (1 April 2012)

Glen48 said:


> There has been more people killed in USA than all the wars put together.




I think thats a little bit of a white lie Glen...


----------



## Glen48 (1 April 2012)

Sorry I should have said  USA wars meaning more killed in their own country than serving it.  
 A good show to watch called "Only in America "  there was peace vigil for John Lennon and some one was shot.


----------



## Tink (3 April 2012)

*Six dead as university gunman opens fire *
http://www.theage.com.au/world/six-dead-as-university-gunman-opens-fire-20120403-1w9b9.html

Seems to be alot in America, I wouldnt want us going down that road.


----------



## MrBurns (3 April 2012)

Tink said:


> *Six dead as university gunman opens fire *
> http://www.theage.com.au/world/six-dead-as-university-gunman-opens-fire-20120403-1w9b9.html
> Seems to be alot in America, I wouldnt want us going down that road.




That's right but the gun lovies will say it was an accident, it could have happened anywhere, blah blah , fact is a nut case just had to go down the local hardware store ands buy whatever he wanted to do what the voices were telling him.


----------



## Glen48 (9 April 2012)

I see a few  shootings over the w/end maybe the younger ones who grew up on a diet of Tour of Duty  X box etc have decide to move up a level.

http://vialls.homestead.com/portarthur.html and

http://www.whale.to/b/viallspam.html#MARTIN_BRYANT_-_THE_OTHER_STORY_


----------



## Tisme (31 August 2015)

Interesting experiment:

[video]https://video-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xpf1/v/t43.1792-2/11052628_904950219556802_2076527557_n.mp4?efg=eyJy  bHIiOjE1MDAsInJsYSI6MzY5NH0%3D&rl=1500&vabr=951&oh=497988bd4288a4c1beae1ef0dc371d78&oe=55E394AF[/video]


----------



## SirRumpole (8 September 2015)

Why do we need this gun ?



> Weakening gun laws amid controversial shotgun debate 'huge mistake, John Howard says
> By Francis Keany
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## drsmith (8 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Why do we need this gun ?



No.

John Howard is absolutely right on this.


----------



## Boggo (8 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> No.
> 
> John Howard is absolutely right on this.




BS The bit that has been missed by those who object and the melon head supporters such as our 14c a day ABC is that the law has changed significantly.
Lever action rifles have been around since the 30's !

Pre '96 you could walk into a police station and pick up a gun licence and then go into any gunshop and pick up a rifle and some ammo and off you go. The process can now take in excess of 6 months with no guarantee of the application being approved.

The point that is being missed is that it is the person holding the gun that is the issue, not the flamin gun.
There are more people killed on our roads in a day than there are by firearm in a year.

The people (in Australia) who give the media reason to create unwarranted fear and keyboard warrior sensationalism are the people who would never be able to get a firearm legally.
Those who respond to the media created fear are the likes of the Sydney Fox Rescue loonies. They would have a different view of foxes and firearms had they been brought up on a farm and seen foxes eating a live lambs as they are born.
Get out and see both sides of the equation, then comment.

I am glad though that we we do have strict laws here (on the individual), the US system is a basket case.


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

Boggo said:


> Get out and see both sides of the equation, then comment.



The only substantive argument in your post above is that of feral animal control.

Is though that specific firearm essential for the control of foxes ?


----------



## Boggo (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> The only substantive argument in your post above is that of feral animal control.




If you are disagreeing with this bit below then I think you are media dependant unfortunately. 



			
				Boggo said:
			
		

> Lever action rifles have been around since the 30's !
> 
> Pre '96 you could walk into a police station and pick up a gun licence and then go into any gunshop and pick up a rifle and some ammo and off you go. The process can now take in excess of 6 months with no guarantee of the application being approved.






drsmith said:


> ...
> 
> Is though that specific firearm essential for the control of foxes ?




Irrelevant in the hands of a licensed and responsible user.

Should we ban all V8's because a Hyundai Getz can get you to your destination in the same time if you comply with the speed limits etc ?
With a licensed and responsible user why is there an increased risk with the V8 ?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 September 2015)

Boggo said:


> If you are disagreeing with this bit below then I think you are media dependant unfortunately.




The question still is , why do we need it ?

What is the cost/benefit ratio ?


----------



## sydboy007 (9 September 2015)

Boggo said:


> If you are disagreeing with this bit below then I think you are media dependant unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If we increase our level of gun ownership to US levels, explain to me why the outcome would be different to the US experience


----------



## Tisme (9 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The question still is , why do we need it ?
> 
> What is the cost/benefit ratio ?




I'm glad you re iterated your question, if only for the pedant(s) who may have been too quick out of the gates.

One would assume it's for sport ... you know shooting passive animals that can't shoot back.

I used a shotgun with big **** shot for fence shooting roos, but who needs more than one tigger action if they know what they are doing?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 September 2015)

Tisme said:


> I'm glad you re iterated your question, if only for the pedant(s) who may have been too quick out of the gates.
> 
> One would assume it's for sport ... you know shooting passive animals that can't shoot back.
> 
> I used a shotgun with big **** shot for fence shooting roos, but who needs more than one tigger action if they know what they are doing?




Yep. For some guns are just an extension of a male anatomical part.



And this import license is being done on the whim of one man, uber liberationist David Lleyonjhelm who traded off support for some migration bill just so he can have a few jollies pretending to be a big man with a big gun.


----------



## sydboy007 (9 September 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep. For some guns are just an extension of a male anatomical part.
> 
> 
> 
> And this import license is being done on the whim of one man, uber liberationist David Lleyonjhelm who traded off support for some migration bill just so he can have a few jollies pretending to be a big man with a big gun.




Ah yes, tho deals that will never ever occur under a coalition Govt as promised by TA

Interview with Karl Stefanovic, Today Show, Nine Network - Friday, February 24, 2012

_There are no dodgy, done-in-the-dark deals under the Coalition._

Interview with David Speers and Kieran Gilbert, Sky News - February 24, 2012

_Kieran, that’s what our country needs. We don’t want another government depending upon dodgy deals. We don’t want another government dependent upon wayward independents. We don’t want another government where the faceless men are in charge. Now, I think we want to see a stable majority government that has made clear commitments to the Australian people; that keeps those commitments and gets on with the job._

Doorstop Interview, Sydney - February 25, 2012

_Well, it’s not about me, it is about our country. It’s about getting strong and stable government back into our country. The only way we can get strong and stable government is to ask the people to decide. *I think the people are sick and tired of having the prime ministership change on the basis of decisions by faceless men. I think the people are sick and tired of having the government decided by independents. Let’s get away from backroom deals. Let’s get away from deals done in the dark behind closed doors. That kind of thing gives us a fundamentally dishonest government.* Let’s give it to the people to decide because the people will make an honest choice._

Leader of the Opposition's Transcript - Press Conference, Melbourne - Friday, June 29, 2012

_We don’t do secret deals_

Lets not forget the deal done with the greens to remove the debt ceiling.


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

Boggo said:


> If you are disagreeing with this bit below then I think you are media dependant unfortunately.
> 
> Irrelevant in the hands of a licensed and responsible user.
> 
> ...



What are you saying in relation to the ABC media article linked in this thread ?

Are you saying that the ABC has misquoted or otherwise misrepresented John Howards' comments ?

More broadly, what specific objective would this particular firearm achieve that cannot be achieved with firearms already allowed ?


----------



## Boggo (9 September 2015)

drsmith said:


> More broadly, what specific objective would this particular firearm achieve that cannot be achieved with firearms already allowed ?




Example from a professional feral exterminator...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bckVelAbkLY


----------



## Tisme (9 September 2015)

Boggo said:


> Example from a professional feral exterminator...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bckVelAbkLY




Don't they use an Uzi and helicopter these days?


----------



## drsmith (9 September 2015)

Boggo said:


> Example from a professional feral exterminator...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bckVelAbkLY



Is he using the firearm in question ?


----------



## Tisme (15 February 2018)

Worth a revisit, given last nights events:


----------



## bellenuit (16 February 2018)




----------



## DB008 (16 February 2018)




----------



## BlownAccount (18 February 2018)

Guns are an inanimate object. Guns don't kill people, people do. One could cause the same outcome with 20 ltr fuel container and a box of matches in a crowded place. Some people are simply scared of everything...
A major catalyst for the often quoted numbers of gun deaths in the US is the governments failed reasoning in banning drugs. The war on drugs causes the issue. My view is if you cant keep drugs out of prison then why even try to keep them out of a country.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Guns are an inanimate object. Guns don't kill people, people do. One could cause the same outcome with 20 ltr fuel container and a box of matches in a crowded place. Some people are simply scared of everything...
> A major catalyst for the often quoted numbers of gun deaths in the US is the governments failed reasoning in banning drugs. The war on drugs causes the issue. My view is if you cant keep drugs out of prison then why even try to keep them out of a country.




Yeah, well, you can't drive anywhere in the US over 100 kmh. Why ? Because you might kill someone !

That shows the stupidity of the gun laws.


----------



## BlownAccount (18 February 2018)

I would say that a lot of bad behaviour is moderated due to the fact that ordinary people and not just criminals have guns in the US. Whilst we can have opinions on the issue of gun ownership it is essentially not our business, it is for the American citizen to decide. Some would say that the mechanisms within the consitution are restrictive and others would say they help preserve the freedoms in the US. We dont even have a bill of rights in Australia. We cant even protect our personhood or property with guns. I have been camped out in remote Australia and would enjoy the benifit of having a pistol on my belt.


----------



## moXJO (18 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> I would say that a lot of bad behaviour is moderated due to the fact that ordinary people and not just criminals have guns in the US. Whilst we can have opinions on the issue of gun ownership it is essentially not our business, it is for the American citizen to decide. Some would say that the mechanisms within the consitution are restrictive and others would say they help preserve the freedoms in the US. We dont even have a bill of rights in Australia. We cant even protect our personhood or property with guns. I have been camped out in remote Australia and would enjoy the benifit of having a pistol on my belt.



Mental health checks and background checks should be in place. I don't have a problem with guns. But people are idiots.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> I would say that a lot of bad behaviour is moderated due to the fact that ordinary people and not just criminals have guns in the US. Whilst we can have opinions on the issue of gun ownership it is essentially not our business, it is for the American citizen to decide. Some would say that the mechanisms within the consitution are restrictive and others would say they help preserve the freedoms in the US. We dont even have a bill of rights in Australia. We cant even protect our personhood or property with guns. I have been camped out in remote Australia and would enjoy the benifit of having a pistol on my belt.




I happen to own a gun. Being in a rural area, they are needed for pest control etc, but I spent most of my earlier life in Sydney where I never felt I needed one.

I think there are so many guns in the US now that ordinary people who would otherwise not have anything to do with guns now think that they need them to protect themselves against those who do have them.

The other issue of course is the type of guns that civilians are allowed to have. Military assault rifles and pistols are inappropriate weapons for civilians unless there are used and stored only at licensed shooting ranges.

As for the US Constitution, the Second Amendment says:

_"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. "
_
The US has a well regulated militia , it's called the US defence forces. I don't know why the Supreme Court decides that school shooters are a part of a well regulated militia.

But anyway you are right in that it's not our business, it's up to the American people to decide what's appropriate for them.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Guns are an inanimate object. Guns don't kill people, people do. One could cause the same outcome with 20 ltr fuel container and a box of matches in a crowded place.




Give me one use of a gun in an urban area which does not involve killing or threatening to kill a human.

I can give you plenty of sensible and reasonably safe uses for fuel and matches.


----------



## BlownAccount (18 February 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> Give me one use of a gun in an urban area which does not involve killing or threatening to kill a human.
> 
> I can give you plenty of sensible and reasonably safe uses for fuel and matches.



I believe urban areas in the US are somewhat dangerous places due to the government creating a multi billion dollar unregulated industry in the banning of drugs. Banned substances = organised crime who become well funded. Its a $500 billion industry in the US. Criminals have guns so a use for a gun in such urban places is have one if your own.

Technological advances will make much of the gun control debate redundant when we see a future in which anyone can 3d print any gun and ammo. 
Cheers


----------



## Tisme (19 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Guns are an inanimate object. Guns don't kill people, people do. One could cause the same outcome with 20 ltr fuel container and a box of matches in a crowded place. Some people are simply scared of everything...
> A major catalyst for the often quoted numbers of gun deaths in the US is the governments failed reasoning in banning drugs. The war on drugs causes the issue. My view is if you cant keep drugs out of prison then why even try to keep them out of a country.





You're joking ...right?

"guns don't kill people"  = inane denial of responsibility. Why not go further down the chain and say the trauma caused by the bullet, that was shot from the gun, that was made for profit, that was activated by a person with premeditated purpose of mind, etc ... killed people. 

"the war on drugs causes the issue" ...can you segue personal accountability and responsibility any further than that.

People like you should leave the Pontius Pilate routine back in 33AD and staring getting your conscience hands dirty instead of wiping them.


----------



## Boggo (19 February 2018)

Spoons make people fat !


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2018)

People like this don't deserve to have guns and should have their licenses and guns taken away.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...nvestigate-christensen-over-gun-photo/9459856


----------



## Tisme (19 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> People like this don't deserve to have guns and should have their licenses and guns taken away.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...nvestigate-christensen-over-gun-photo/9459856





Baby boomer innocuous humour leaking from the seventies into 47 years later social media offensive.

One would have to be pretty thin skinned as a pollie to not acknowledge a cliche when they see it.

 Of course Sarah is not averse to making soapboxes out of any vulgar self promotional opportunity, including the misery of a massacre:

"_George Christensen posted a vulgar picture of him holding a hand gun, and making what he says is a joke about shooting people, and frankly guns aren't a joke and particularly in the wake of the massacre in the US only last week with 17 people shot dead, including children," Senator Hanson-Young said._
_
_


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> One would have to be pretty thin skinned as a pollie to not acknowledge a cliche when they see it.




Of course, but it's the loonies not in Parliament that are the problem and supposed exemplars like Christensen shouldn't be dog whistling them.
.


----------



## Tisme (19 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course, but it's the loonies not in Parliament that are the problem and supposed exemplars like Christensen shouldn't be dog whistling them.
> .





Which is why she went straight into publicity mode: to get the widest audience possible, instead of just accepting George has a small following of like minded trolls who aren't likely to manifest a joke into a reality.


----------



## basilio (19 February 2018)

Always interesting to see someone like Tisme's sense of perspective when considering questions of "humour " about abusing green punks while pointing a gun at them.

So when thinking about what's "funny" on Georges comment how about changing the phrase to

"You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *filthy wogs ? *" or how about
"You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *mussie towelheads *?"  or what about
"You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky  *racist  dumb white xhit*? or
"You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *rabid unxuckable feminist*

Or in fact - actually anyone or any group.

It's not remotely funny. It's just the type of  screaming dog whistling  a creature little George Christenson uses to gee up  anyone else who is itching to kick a bit of green punk in whatever way they want to see it. It's basically waving a noose around and inviting your locals to a BBQ and necktie party

In fact, no surprise , Sarah Hansen Green copped some choice  comments as a consequence of Georges "joke". 

 View image on Twitter 


 




	

		
			
		

		
	
 Sarah Hanson-Young
	

		
			
		

		
	




*✔*  @sarahinthesen8 


Received this email tonight from George Christensen suporter. Classy.

 7:04 PM - Feb 18, 2018

 1,260 
 1,781 people are talking about this 
And not surprisingly the local environmentalists managed scores and scores of similar vile threats  when the dogs heard the whistle and call to arms.

Just poisonous.


----------



## bellenuit (19 February 2018)

Brilliant!

People Are Donating ‘Thoughts And Prayers’ To NRA-Backed Republicans’ Re-Election Campaigns


----------



## Tisme (19 February 2018)

basilio said:


> Always interesting to see someone like Tisme's sense of perspective when considering questions of "humour " about abusing green punks while pointing a gun at them.
> 
> .




You must have the panorama version of the pic. Wanna share?

as for the rest of your hyperbole = usual self serving fantasy stuff that only applies to Smurfland, Dinotopia and Melbourne Inner Suburbs.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...arch-is-greens-organiser-20170127-gu038y.html


----------



## basilio (19 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> as for the rest of your hyperbole = usual self serving fantasy stuff that only applies to Smurfland, Dinotopia and Melbourne Inner Suburbs.




So thats why Malcolm Turnball, Derryne Hinch and even Pauline Hansen think this is sick and tasteless and basically dog whistling. 
By the way which other variations of the "joke " are just as funny ? 

Just imagine the screams from Bolt and co if anyone else except some like George Christensen made such a "joke".


----------



## Tisme (19 February 2018)

basilio said:


> So thats why Malcolm Turnball, Derryne Hinch and even Pauline Hansen think this is sick and tasteless and basically dog whistling.
> By the way which other variations of the "joke " are just as funny ?
> 
> Just imagine the screams from Bolt and co if anyone else except some like George Christensen made such a "joke".





I'd see it for what it is and it ain't dog whistling, if anything it's very wysiwyg.... the guy just wants to pick an overt social media hurt with the sooky greens.

Best the Powerpuff girl sticks with what she knows ....... which isn't a lot.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'd see it for what it is and it ain't dog whistling, if anything it's very wysiwyg.... the guy just wants to pick an overt social media hurt with the sooky greens.
> 
> Best the Powerpuff girl sticks with what she knows ....... which isn't a lot.




Yeah well, we just  had murder in NSW of a government landcare worker by a deranged farmer , and this sort of stunt by Christensen could provoke more of that guns are the only answer type cr@p.


----------



## basilio (19 February 2018)

The Clint Eastwood black humour gag about "Are you feeling lucky punk" had it's place. It was about a vigilante cop toying with a single, known "baddie". 

One baddie, one dark vigilante cop.

When you replace the singular "punk" with a collective plural (green punks)  and take way the context of a single vigilante cop the black humour disappears and it becomes a call to arms to attack a collective group of people  - but in a fun way....

The Greens candidate Ben Pennings in the Bowen region has already had 100 plus threats in the past two months.  His house, his wife and children have been identified by anonoymous trolls. George's contribution was just another bucket of petrol on the fire.


----------



## Tisme (19 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah well, we just  had murder in NSW of a government landcare worker by a deranged farmer , and this sort of stunt by Christensen could provoke more of that guns are the only answer type cr@p.




So now we are going to get into the days when Abbott accused Rudd of murder? 

I don't/won't agree that we should modify our behaviours to cater to lowest common denominators. The test has always been the man on a Bondi Tram.


----------



## Tisme (19 February 2018)

basilio said:


> The Clint Eastwood black humour gag about "Are you feeling lucky punk" had it's place. It was about a vigilante cop toying with a single, known "baddie".
> 
> One baddie, one dark vigilante cop.
> 
> ...





You don't know that. It's sheer speculation based on some scheme your shrewd side has come up with. 

Should I stop swapping points of view with you...afterall it was you who made threats against me?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> So now we are going to get into the days when Abbott accused Rudd of murder?
> 
> I don't/won't agree that we should modify our behaviours to cater to lowest common denominators. The test has always been the man on a Bondi Tram.




I just don't see anything that can be achieved by doing this. I can think of a lot of stuff that Christensen would complain about if directed at him.


----------



## BlownAccount (19 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> You're joking ...right?
> 
> "guns don't kill people"  = inane denial of responsibility. Why not go further down the chain and say the trauma caused by the bullet, that was shot from the gun, that was made for profit, that was activated by a person with premeditated purpose of mind, etc ... killed people.
> 
> ...



Nope not joking. Denial of responsibility you say? I am the one stating that essentially all objects and substances can be used to kill, so people need to be held responsible for thier own actions. 99 % of people who own fire arms dont kill people. Owning a gun doesnt make one a murder. 
Whats so hard to understand about the prohibition on drug use creating a trillion dollar black industry responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousand of people. Just on the Mexican border in the last ten years there has been more than 60K deaths.


----------



## BlownAccount (19 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> So now we are going to get into the days when Abbott accused Rudd of murder?
> 
> I don't/won't agree that we should modify our behaviours to cater to lowest common denominators. The test has always been the man on a Bondi Tram.



I agree whole heartedly regarding not modifying our behaviours to cater to the lowest common denominators and yet you seem to be contridicting your earlier arguements.


----------



## moXJO (19 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Just on the Mexican border in the last ten years there has been more than 60K deaths.



60k!! Thats a lot.
what did they die from?


----------



## BlownAccount (20 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> 60k!! Thats a lot.
> what did they die from?




Trauma due to an unregulated trillion dollar industry where the participants use violence as an investment vehicle.


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Nope not joking. Denial of responsibility you say? I am the one stating that essentially all objects and substances can be used to kill, so people need to be held responsible for thier own actions. 99 % of people who own fire arms dont kill people. Owning a gun doesnt make one a murder.
> Whats so hard to understand about the prohibition on drug use creating a trillion dollar black industry responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousand of people. Just on the Mexican border in the last ten years there has been more than 60K deaths.




Well we agree that people are responsible for the reprehensible, not the tools of their misadventure ... unless of course you are a Green, then it's everyone else's fault.

Drugs...... can't come at legalising drugs after seeing what addiction has done to my family.


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I just don't see anything that can be achieved by doing this. I can think of a lot of stuff that Christensen would complain about if directed at him.




Christensen is a self propelling half wit. I'm guessing Young sees him as low hanging fruit to further her public profile.

He posts an obviously silly tweet and mentions only "green punks", but Young decides it's all about her and makes up yarns that so did the nutters out there and sent threats as a result.

 Bas gets on the bandwagon so he/she can prolong his/her hate for me, like I made the tweet or something.


----------



## Tisme (20 February 2018)

basilio said:


> The Greens candidate Ben Pennings in the Bowen region has already had 100 plus threats* in the past two months*.  His house, his wife and children have been identified by _anonoymous_ trolls. George's contribution was just another bucket of petrol on the fire.




So Pennings is a candidate out on the hustings, raising his profile in hostile political territory and he is being trolled on social media.  

Let's make the chain in it's entirety = Clint Eastwood acts as a character "Dirty" Harry Callahan, people spend money and watch the film, the film is a great success and a cliche is born "Do you feel lucky punk  etc"., every kid and many conversations from then on include "do you feel lucky punk"  and presumably not all of those using the phrase are dead by their own tongue.

It's obvious that the people responsible are those aiding and abetting the vulgarity, i.e. those who paid to see it.  The solution would have to be to ban the film series, censor what people can say , think and do and the world will return to the safe haven it was before 1971,


----------



## moXJO (20 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Trauma due to an unregulated trillion dollar industry where the participants use violence as an investment vehicle.



Top answer.


----------



## basilio (20 February 2018)

So which of these variations of Dirty Harry's line  "Do you feel lucky, punk " are humourous ?

"You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *filthy wogs ? *" or how about
"You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *mussie towelheads *?" or what about
"You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *racist dumb white xhit*? or
"You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *greenie punk ?*
"You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *rabid unxuckable feminist ?
"*You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *you uppity nigga ?*

Which groups singled out for such a humourous joke would feel a warm, happy glow ? And then of course if these comments were made on public forums what would  other people think about 
1) The groups being described
2) The people doing the describing.

From my perspective I see an overwhelming range of people recognising that what passes for a bit of black humour in Dirty Harry takes on a completly different tone when the target is not one  "baddie '  but a whole denigrated group who are lablled as "baddies" by the joke.

George Christensons "joke" was a shrill dog whistle that had totally predictable results in terms of unleashing a torrent of abuse on "greenies" or fellow travellers. I supose what concerns me the most is the total lack of empathy by Tisme for the effect this tag had on hundreds of people as well as the quality of public discourse.

*And this guy Represents the public in Parliament.* 

*You gotta ask yourself,   what the xuck ?*


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2018)

basilio said:


> From my perspective I see an overwhelming range of people recognising that what passes for a bit of black humour in Dirty Harry takes on a completly different tone when the target is not one "baddie ' but a whole denigrated group who are lablled as "baddies" by the joke.




Exactly. Although I don't always agree with the Greens I wouldn't characterise them as a group that deserves to be on the wrong side of a Magnum .44.


----------



## Macquack (20 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Guns are an inanimate object. Guns don't kill people, people do. One could cause the same outcome with 20 ltr fuel container and a box of matches in a crowded place. Some people are simply scared of everything...



You must be a member of the NRA with that nonsense.


----------



## bellenuit (20 February 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Guns are an inanimate object. Guns don't kill people, people do.




People with guns kill people. And they do it more efficiently than people without guns. 



> One could cause the same outcome with 20 ltr fuel container and a box of matches in a crowded place.




Yes. But it is much harder to conceal a 20 litre fuel container and would be quite difficult to get it into a school with our rising an alarm. A gun is much easier to conceal and an AR can do tremendous damage to those close and afar.


----------



## moXJO (20 February 2018)

basilio said:


> So which of these variations of Dirty Harry's line  "Do you feel lucky, punk " are humourous ?
> 
> "You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *filthy wogs ? *" or how about
> "You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *mussie towelheads *?" or what about
> ...



All of them but "greenie punk" are kinda humourous. Probably shouldn't have added "uppity filthy" etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> All of them but "greenie punk" are kinda humourous. Probably shouldn't have added "uppity filthy" etc.




How about "elitist, IPA ideologs, Christian Conservative"  punks ?


----------



## moXJO (21 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> How about "elitist, IPA ideologs, Christian Conservative"  punks ?



'Dip$hit rightie' probably would have covered it.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)

basilio said:


> So which of these variations of Dirty Harry's line  "Do you feel lucky, punk " are humourous ?
> 
> "You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *filthy wogs ? *" or how about
> "You gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky *mussie towelheads *?" or what about
> ...





You are deliberately omitting why George made the post. How about you tell us why that is? Why he used particularly, the word "punks".

Your movement is always very quick out of the blocks on farcebook, twatter, etc with hysteria, fabricated troll enemies, etc. The Greens are professionals at agitation and fake aggressors. I have even outed some of them (fake trolls) by baiting them.

I don't believe for a minute the email from the supposed deranged LNP supporter is anything, but designed to enhance Young's profile. There is just no logical way, out of the blue, she would get the (disgusting) email on the back of a generic George Farcebook post.

Young's own broadcast tweet conveniently omits the email address of the sender. Her post tweet was before her boss decided to make a federal case out of it.

Humour is a personal response. A joke doesn't have to be humourous and it doesn't have to appeal to others. 

In this instance George's post is too absurd not to be a joke, even soft c$4ks know it is, but they can't get out of the expected stoic indignation mode.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)

Bow and arrows threat?


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2018)

Malcolm who ?


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Malcolm who ?



 LOL

he's making another tilt along with an ex LNP pollie.

With Malcolm now turning Green, it should be interesting up here in the redneck boonies when the election comes around.... unless hipster latte can make bigger inroads in that time gap.


----------



## basilio (21 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> I don't believe for a minute the email from the supposed deranged LNP supporter is anything, but designed to enhance Young's profile. There is just no logical way, out of the blue, she would get the (disgusting) email on the back of a generic George Farcebook post.
> 
> Young's own broadcast tweet conveniently omits the email address of the sender. Her post tweet was before her boss decided to make a federal case out of it.




So... you reckon this email from the supposed LNP supporter was a set up job by the Greens. Just a  false flag operation.

Give us a break Tisme. All your doing is opening the door to your wilful blindness. Ironically, not posting the senders email address is protecting them from  being abused on line. The fact that the email arrived *before *Richard Di Natale denounced the "joke" highlights the effect the post was having on Georges supporters even before the issue was highlighted.

The fact is that George Christens extreme viewswill inevitably groom and attract similar ideas amongst his facebook supporters.  And frankly there are plenty of nasty people who need little encouragement to abuse the Greens.

You ask why did George post his call to arms ? It was about the Greens campaign to ensure the Adani Coal mine doesn't happen. 

When one examines the finances, the direct and indirect environmental costs and the future of coal as a fossil fuel the Adani proposal is disastrous. The troubling part is that George Christenson and many in teh LNP refuse to recognise that reality.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)

basilio said:


> So... you reckon this email from the supposed LNP supporter was a set up job by the Greens. Just a  false flag operation.
> 
> Give us a break Tisme. All your doing is opening the door to your wilful blindness. Ironically, not posting the senders email address is protecting them from  being abused on line. The fact that the email arrived *before *Richard Di Natale denounced the "joke" highlights the effect the post was having on Georges supporters even before the issue was highlighted.
> 
> ...




You didn't answer the question truthfully. Either that or you haven't done your homework as usual.

Of course the whole thing is staged. They took advantage of Barnaby's bombshell to put the knife in.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)

basilio said:


> The* fact is* that George Christens extreme viewswill inevitably groom and attract similar ideas amongst his facebook supporters.  And frankly there are plenty of nasty people who need little encouragement to abuse the Greens.
> 
> .




Really. Remember this fella Mark David Chapman

Let me give you a hint: the famous extreme incitement to violence cliche' "The Beatles are more popular than Jesus".

By corollary to your rules, John deserved it?


----------



## basilio (21 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> You didn't answer the question truthfully. Either that or you haven't done your homework as usual.
> 
> Of course the whole thing is staged. They took advantage of Barnaby's bombshell to put the knife in.




Your cracked Tisme. Totally, utterly, completely.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)

basilio said:


> Your cracked Tisme. Totally, utterly, completely.




See you can appreciate a joke if you let yourself indulge.


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)




----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)




----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)

http://www.betootaadvocate.com/advo...communist-era-ak47-christensen-death-threats/


----------



## basilio (21 February 2018)

*Di Natale Blows Dust Off Bob Brown’s Communist-Era AK47 After Christensen Death Threats *

Well congratulations TISME on locating the source of the Red Menace. !! Truly an outstanding piece of work by a *High* Distinction 301 troller.  We'll have to see if there's  a post graduation opening  for you in Moscows highly regarded information processing  industries.

Anyway I'll drop a line to Uncle Putin and see if we can't organise an Order of Putin medal for you

*(What colour would you like your medal ? It can come in Revolutionary Red, Death Black or Landlords Grey )*


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)

basilio said:


> *Di Natale Blows Dust Off Bob Brown’s Communist-Era AK47 After Christensen Death Threats *
> 
> Well congratulations TISME on locating the source of the Red Menace. !! Truly an outstanding piece of work by a *High* Distinction 301 troller.  We'll have to see if there's  a post graduation opening  for you in Moscows highly regarded information processing  industries.
> 
> ...





You want to tell everyone about the "Left Renewal" faction that Di Natale promoted?


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> You want to tell everyone about the "Left Renewal" faction that Di Natale promoted?




Did he promote it ? I thought he is trying to distance himself from it, starting with getting Lee Rhiannon thrown out.


http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...aiming-to-end-capitalism-20161222-gtghf9.html


----------



## Tisme (21 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Did he promote it ? I thought he is trying to distance himself from it, starting with getting Lee Rhiannon thrown out.
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...aiming-to-end-capitalism-20161222-gtghf9.html





No he was a force majeure at the outset and realised he was losing his power base, so he switched horses mid stream.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 February 2018)

The start of a movement perhaps ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-21/florida-shooting-us-gun-owner-destroys-his-rifle/9464708


----------



## Tisme (23 February 2018)

Problem solved = arm the teachers!

I'm guessing giving enough lip could be fatal to some unwanted students.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 February 2018)

Americans got pretty upset about the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks to the point that the whole world was hearing about it for years, indeed it still gets the occasional mention today.

The same number of Americans are killed using guns every 32 days.

Even worse, 3 times as many as died in the terrorist attacks are killed by smoking tobacco every _week.
_
Given all the fuss that was made about terrorists, logically there would be an all out effort to rid the US of guns and stamp out smoking once and for all as far greater dangers. They're backed by big business however and money talks....


----------



## basilio (23 February 2018)

Saw some excerpts from live telecast of  the Town Hall meeting in Florida which challenged the current gun laws in the US.  Powerful stuff.

*The Most Powerful Moments From the Extraordinary CNN Town Hall on Guns and the Parkland School Shooting*
By Elliot Hannon

 Feb 21, 201811:45 PM
Marjory Stoneman Douglas student Cameron Kasky (L) asks Senator Marco Rubio if he will continue to accept money from the NRA during a CNN town hall meeting, at the BB&T Center, in Sunrise, Florida, U.S. February 21, 2018.
REUTERS/Michael Laughlin/Pool
A week after the school shooting in Parkland, Florida, as the country continues to debate gun control, CNN held a town hall meeting with students and teachers from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. During the extraordinary two-hour event, members of the Parkland community asked questions on a range of gun control-related topics to Florida Sens. Bill Nelson and Marco Rubio, and Democratic Congressman Ted Deutch, who represents the district the school shooting took place in. National Rifle Association spokesperson Dana Loesch and Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel also answered questions in a separate Q&A session.

The interactions were often raw and searching as the students, teachers, and parents, still grieving from losing friends and classmates, asked the politicians why they were put in this situation in the first place and what they planned to do to prevent future school shootings. 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...townhall-on-the-parkland-school-shooting.html


----------



## basilio (23 February 2018)

Americas gun problem vs the rest of the world. Some excellent analysis of how all countries cope with access to guns  and stopping mass killing.

*I’ve covered gun violence for years. The solutions aren’t a big mystery.*
*America can prevent shootings. But it has to come to grips with the problem.*
By German Lopez@germanrlopezgerman.lopez@vox.com   Feb 21, 2018, 1:20pm EST
 Share   Tweet   Share 





	

		
			
		

		
	
  Jim Watson/AFP via Getty Images
It’s going to happen again. There will be another mass shooting in America.

It’s tragic to even write those words, but this is the clear pattern I’ve seen since I began covering mass shootings for Vox in 2014: A horrific tragedy happens. There are calls for action. Maybe something gets introduced in Congress. The debate goes back and forth for a bit. Then people move on — usually after less than a week or two. And so there’s eventually another shooting.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts


----------



## tech/a (23 February 2018)

More guns in schools

Great idea.
Then you'll have shoot outs with teachers and students.
All the while all the un armed kids will be caught in the cross fire.
Kids held as hostage as they walk around shooting anyone who
wont shoot in case they hit a kid.

Solution
More guns to the kids so they can protect themselves.

Anarchy at its best.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> Problem solved = arm the teachers!
> 
> I'm guessing giving enough lip could be fatal to some unwanted students.




For sure. Keeping the kids safe and having all homework handed in too.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

tech/a said:


> More guns in schools
> 
> Great idea.
> Then you'll have shoot outs with teachers and students.
> ...




Then the NRA figured that concealed weapons only carried 6 or 12 rounds. That can't compete with assault rifles. There should be an arms race where if you're a teacher you can get special editions.

Then each school with over 50% of teachers packing heat will get a special locker per room. No, not a safe room for the kids, safe for the guns.


----------



## tech/a (23 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Then the NRA figured that concealed weapons only carried 6 or 12 rounds. That can't compete with assault rifles. There should be an arms race where if you're a teacher you can get special editions.
> 
> Then each school with over 50% of teachers packing heat will get a special locker per room. No, not a safe room for the kids, safe for the guns.





So just hang on while I unlock my gun load it and shoot you!
These morons are leaders in the free world!
Be afraid very afraid!


----------



## basilio (23 February 2018)

tech/a said:


> So just hang on while I unlock my gun load it and shoot you!
> These morons are leaders in the free world!
> Be afraid very afraid!




It takes two functioning neurons and a millisecond to work out how dingbat stupid and counter productive it is trying to arm teachers in schools to stop these massacres.

And yet Donald Trump and the NRA are proposing these ideas. God help us.


----------



## Tisme (23 February 2018)

tech/a said:


> So just hang on while I unlock my gun load it and shoot you!
> These morons are leaders in the free world!
> Be afraid very afraid!




Makes teachers a bigger target


----------



## tech/a (23 February 2018)

basilio said:


> It takes two functioning neurons and a millisecond to work out how dingbat stupid and counter productive it is trying to arm teachers in schools to stop these massacres.
> 
> And yet Donald Trump and the NRA are proposing these ideas. God help us.






Tisme said:


> Makes teachers a bigger target




Yep.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

Whats people's solution (within reality)? 
Surely at minimum you would background/mental  check on assault rifles.

Goodluck banning them.
The bill of rights guarantees those rights of Americans. Not sure people will just roll over because some people are to stupid and abuse those rights.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> The bill of rights guarantees those rights of Americans.




It does, for the purposes of "*a well regulated militia".
*
What well regulated militia are these loonies a part of ?


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> It does, for the purposes of "*a well regulated militia".
> *
> What well regulated militia are these loonies a part of ?



Doesn't matter its a part of the constitution. You can biatch and moan about a ban,  but its never going to happen.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> It does, for the purposes of "*a well regulated militia".
> *
> What well regulated militia are these loonies a part of ?



Also quote all of it next time.



> A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


----------



## tech/a (23 February 2018)

Solutions.

Airport type screening
Auto Weapons Police ETC only.
Security Checks---If you break the law other than Misdemeanours
you forfeit the right to own a weapon.

For starters.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

There was an armed cop at the school that didn't engage the shooter either. Not sure if thats true or not.

Just to clear up what trump said.
Trump originally said that he wanted those with military backgrounds or highly trained teachers. Possibly making up only 20% of staff. Not all teachers.
The reasoning was that it takes emergency services 5-6min to get there and the shooter is usually done in 3min


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> Also quote all of it next time.




Just define what "arms" mean. Solved. Or put a new Amendment to the vote. 

Arms does not mean having access to weapons of war. Or should drones, hellfire missiles, nuclear weapons be accessible too seeing how those kind of weapons are what a militia would need to keep the country safe nowadays.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Just define what "arms" mean. Solved. Or put a new Amendment to the vote.
> 
> Arms does not mean having access to weapons of war. Or should drones, hellfire missiles, nuclear weapons be accessible too seeing how those kind of weapons are what a militia would need to keep the country safe nowadays.



Pretty sure it was already legally defined.
Weapons of mass destruction wouldn't be covered. 
It was supposed to protect you from government.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Just define what "arms" mean. Solved. Or put a new Amendment to the vote.
> 
> Arms does not mean having access to weapons of war. Or should drones, hellfire missiles, nuclear weapons be accessible too seeing how those kind of weapons are what a militia would need to keep the country safe nowadays.




Limit it to the Arms available when the 2nd amendment was written.

It would have hard for the Las Vegas shooter to get the number of hits he did with a musket


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Limit it to the Arms available when the 2nd amendment was written.
> 
> It would have hard for the Las Vegas shooter to get the number of hits he did with a musket




From George Mason long


> *Debate in Virginia Ratifying Convention*
> 
> 14 June 1788
> 
> ...


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> Pretty sure it was already legally defined.
> Weapons of mass destruction wouldn't be covered.
> It was supposed to protect you from government.




Definitely sure an average yank can't take on the US gov't with a few assault rifles. 

So if they're to go with the spirit of the Second Amendment, better upgrade the arms available to compete and have a chance against a potential tyrant in the White House.


----------



## Tink (23 February 2018)

Switzerland is the same, with a high rate of gun ownership.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> From George Mason long




That's a complete load of bull$hite.

If the army wants to attack the citizens they have drones, laser guided missiles, helicopter gunships, tanks and whatever else those taxpayer citizens have kindly provided. They could stand off in their bases and flatten the houses of the people without raising a sweat and no little redneck with his AR can do anything about it.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Definitely sure an average yank can't take on the US gov't with a few assault rifles.
> 
> So if they're to go with the spirit of the Second Amendment, better upgrade the arms available to compete and have a chance against a potential tyrant in the White House.



Plenty of people do argue that. They say they should have access as is their right under the 2nd amendment.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> That's a complete load of bull$hite.
> 
> If the army wants to attack the citizens they have drones, laser guided missiles, helicopter gunships, tanks and whatever else those taxpayer citizens have kindly provided. They could stand off in their bases and flatten the houses of the people without raising a sweat and no little redneck with his AR can do anything about it.



Again, argue with the 2nd amendment.
That was the reasoning behind the 2nd amendment at the time (you checked the date right?). 


Coming from our little regulated corner of the world,  freedom and rights can be a scary thing. And the truth is that total freedom probably looks more like anarchy.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> Plenty of people do argue that. They say they should have access as is their right under the 2nd amendment.




I'm just glad we don't have gun manufacturers in Australia. Else they'll be pushing for the same kind of freedom here too.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> That's a complete load of bull$hite.
> 
> If the army wants to attack the citizens they have drones, laser guided missiles, helicopter gunships, tanks and whatever else those taxpayer citizens have kindly provided. They could stand off in their bases and flatten the houses of the people without raising a sweat and no little redneck with his AR can do anything about it.



There are a lot of gun owners in the US. They would outnumber the army 100:1(made up stat,  too lazy to check) Vietnam did it. You could argue the Afghans did it as well


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> I'm just glad we don't have gun manufacturers in Australia. Else they'll be pushing for the same kind of freedom here too.



We had guns here before. We didn't have the gun culture though. Pretty sure we had AR15, SKS, uzis all for sale.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> We had guns here before. We didn't have the gun culture though. Pretty sure we had AR15, SKS, uzis all for sale.




Those weren't manufactured in Australia though, right? I mean if we have manufacturers of any scale here, they'll established a proper culture where each family would have one or a dozen. 

I think the US just want to keep their citizens on edge. There's the Muslims, the Mexicans, not the Canadians though but who knows... So better get yourself a gun... but then everyone around you could be carrying so you better too. 

Maybe they're not that many seeing how recent report show some cops carrying around fake toy guns to plan on people they shoot.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> From George Mason long




There is an old saying,

"Never bring an assault rifle to a drone fight"

--------
The argument about needing rifles to resist the government is bunk, 

1, you can just vote out the government.
2, the "standing army" can just revolt against the tyrannical government and use the governments own weapons against them.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Those weren't manufactured in Australia though, right? I mean if we have manufacturers of any scale here, they'll established a proper culture where each family would have one or a dozen.




we have Lithgow Arms in Lithgow NSW, I think they are the biggest rifle manufacturer in the southern hemisphere.

http://www.lithgowarms.com


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> we have Lithgow Arms in Lithgow NSW, I think they are the biggest rifle manufacturer in the southern hemisphere.
> 
> http://www.lithgowarms.com




prfff.. You call that an armed industry? 

This is an arms industry 

http://www.americanfirearms.org/manufacturers/


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> prfff.. You call that an armed industry?




No, I call it a rifle manufacturer.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2018)

Tink said:


> Switzerland is the same, with a high rate of gun ownership.




They don't have ammunition though.

Current and former Soldiers get to keep their rifles at home even after they have finished serving, However they do not hold ammunition, ammunition is stored at central locations controlled by the government.

So gun ownership is high, ammunition ownership is low.

Even Swiss citizens with private guns have regulations on quantities and types of ammunition they can purchase.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> No, I call it a rifle manufacturer.




Looks pretty cool. But they're hard to get right? 

btw, does our troops used Australian made rifles only or we buy them from the yanks?


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> They don't have ammunition though.
> 
> Current and former Soldiers get to keep their rifles at home even after they have finished serving, However they do not hold ammunition, ammunition is stored at central locations controlled by the government.
> 
> ...




That's a lot smarter than being able to pick up a few boxes from WalMart.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> Looks pretty cool. But they're hard to get right?
> 
> btw, does our troops used Australian made rifles only or we buy them from the yanks?




Lithgow Arms makes the EF88 assault rifle and the F89 light support weapon which are the main weapons used in the Army, but alot of the other weapons used in specialist roles are imported, mainly from the USA and Germany.

Like everything its a mix, we are both a buyer and seller of defence equipment.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> mainly from the USA and Germany.





What, not China ?


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> What, not China ?




Because we are on operations with the USA on a regular basis, so using their weapons means easy access to replacement parts and ammunition, that is why the SAS chose to use the M4 as the mainstay weapon rather than the F88 or EF88 that the rest of the Army use, because that way they can go into a country attached to a larger US force away from Aussie supply chain and rely on the USA supply chain.

The German weapons such as the Heckler and Kosh MP5 and the USP pistol etc, are used in very special roles by the special forces, the performance of the weapons is why they were chosen, and because on the nature of the operations they would be used in they don't require as much of a supply chain backing them.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 February 2018)

I know practically nothing about the military but a question for those who do.

If a war breaks out between the US and whoever, roughly what % of fighting will take place using soldiers on the ground carrying guns?


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I know practically nothing about the military but a question for those who do.
> 
> If a war breaks out between the US and whoever, roughly what % of fighting will take place using soldiers on the ground carrying guns?




I would say that depends on a lot of factors, and what priority each side puts on maintaining infrastructure. eg if there is little priority they will just blow the cr@p out of any building thought to contain the enemy, otherwise they may try street to street fighting if they want to preserve buildings and other infrastructure.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> There is an old saying,
> 
> "Never bring an assault rifle to a drone fight"
> 
> ...



Neither of those statements "bunk" anything. 

The Constitution is what the US is founded on. Right or wrong, thats what they operate with.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I would say that depends on a lot of factors, and what priority each side puts on maintaining infrastructure. eg if there is little priority they will just blow the cr@p out of any building thought to contain the enemy, otherwise they may try street to street fighting if they want to preserve buildings and other infrastructure.




I'm not in the Army though.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I know practically nothing about the military but a question for those who do.
> 
> If a war breaks out between the US and whoever, roughly what % of fighting will take place using soldiers on the ground carrying guns?



Air/sea strikes followed by Marines. Generally you need a lot of soldiers to clear a city.
I think they estimated that the United States would need 500,000 troops in Afghanistan to secure the whole of the country.


----------



## luutzu (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> Air/sea strikes followed by Marines. Generally you need a lot of soldiers to clear a city.
> I think they estimated that the United States would need 500,000 troops in Afghanistan to secure the whole of the country.




I'm no military expert and such ( I know, no kidding), but from just watching docos and lectures, seems the "new" (Western) ways of war since the "strategic blunder" that was Iraq and Afghanistan is to no longer occupy or pacify or liberate an entire country.

That just cost too many boots and them boots are needed everywhere nowadays.

What they tend to do now is use a heck of a lot of firepower from sea and air; let loose a few drones the keep the skies friendly and the ground soft... then simply send in a few boots to "protect" valuable assets. Assets like oil and gas pipelines, mines and friends of democracy.

For bigger ventures like Iraq where they already blundered into the quagmire, they no longer try to take control of cities or villages. They simply set up "green zones", put walls and troops on and around to protect it and selected valuable personnels and comrades inside.

Whatever and whoever outside of those green zones can have fun among themselves.

Then if a group or two of terrorist got too big that they'd take over a city or two of value, i.e. controls oil and access to other valuables. It's only then that the Marines, or special advisors with local friendlies, are sent out and with massive amount of shock and awe, flatten and pacify the place. e.g. Mosul.


These are strategies against relatively weak, no-hope sort of enemies. Things might be a bit different when it's up against serious foes and challengers who could actually fight back with proper air force, drones and Facebook postings 

Seems the US (and the International Community) are drawing up a list of leaders they deemed as "threats to democracy". Among them are Cambodia's Hun Sen and the Phillipines Duterte and the generals in Myannmar.

Not that I don't agree with the designation... just that those who made this list seems to also be too friendly towards the Chinese and not showing enough love for Western sense of freedom and democracy.

So in coming years, South East Asia might be like Syria over the past few years. Special advisors will be sent in to take out the tyrants. The comrades in Beijing will not like that so much as it messed with their plans and the map of Asia might very well be redrawn again.

With a few countries/proxies having a "civil war" each... there will probably be a whole lot of boots made in the US, ANZ, China, Japan, Korea, and the former colonies.

As some Lockheed Martin exec puts it a couple of years ago, SE Asia is a 'growth' area full of opportunities.


----------



## IFocus (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> Again, argue with the 2nd amendment.
> That was the reasoning behind the 2nd amendment at the time (you checked the date right?).




The right to bear arms is not specific.

There has been previous bans on assault weapons etc and there is nothing to prohibit strong regulation of weapons as some US states already do. 
BTW police deaths due to shooters is far less in the regulated US states.

Assault rifles were available when I was younger Queensland being the last state to prohibit ownership (I think).

As an aside there are around 180,000 fully auto functional assault rifles in the US that you can still buy 2nd hand for about $20K.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> The Constitution is what the US is founded on. Right or wrong, thats what they operate with.




Yeah, but you know you can change that right?  That’s why it has amendments


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I know practically nothing about the military but a question for those who do.
> 
> If a war breaks out between the US and whoever, roughly what % of fighting will take place using soldiers on the ground carrying guns?



It completely depends on the objective, and who the enemy is.

But in wars like Afganistan and Iraq, most of the important stuff is done with troops on the ground.

It’s not really considered ok to carpet bomb a town anymore, you have to basically go and kick the door in and get the bad guy without harming the kids sleeping in the next room.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> It completely depends on the objective, and who the enemy is.
> 
> But in wars like Afganistan and Iraq, most of the important stuff is done with troops on the ground.
> 
> It’s not really considered ok to carpet bomb a town anymore, you have to basically go and kick the door in and get the bad guy without harming the kids sleeping in the next room.




You sure that's not the Disney version?

No carpet bombing, just knock down one building... then another, then another. At least that's what the Israelis did on Gaza during its last "mowing the lawn". Well, they kinda give a gentle "knock" through the roof first then in 5 minutes the building comes down no matter who's in it.

Been shown a fair bit of Russian/Assad leveling of parts of Syria lately. No denying the footage from me... but it does raise the question of what does "our guys" shooting back, or leveling, look like. Pretty similar I'd bet. Got to go to RT to watch them though.

You reckon the only way for world peace is, as the NRA suggests, everybody have a nuke?


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah, but you know you can change that right?  That’s why it has amendments



33 proposed since 1788 with 27 ratified. Don't like the chances. I don't agree with thd amount of guns there. But the Constitution was drafted for a reason. And given their gun culture and the division and distrust,  I do not see assault rifles  being banned just yet. It's not easy to change.

Freedom and rights can be a horrible thing. Mainly  because people are inherently stupid.


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> You sure that's not the Disney version?
> 
> No carpet bombing, just knock down one building... then another, then another. At least that's what the Israelis did on Gaza during its last "mowing the lawn". Well, they kinda give a gentle "knock" through the roof first then in 5 minutes the building comes down no matter who's in it.
> 
> ...



Towns are softened up before they send the troops in. US just sends the Kurds in so US troops don't get shot.

It is extremely challenging taking cities though.


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2018)

IFocus said:


> The right to bear arms is not specific.
> 
> There has been previous bans on assault weapons etc and there is nothing to prohibit strong regulation of weapons as some US states already do.
> BTW police deaths due to shooters is far less in the regulated US states.
> ...



Pretty sure you can get AR15 in NZ.
Everyone talks about aussie gun ban. But I'm sure gun deaths in NZ have been falling over the last few decades.
I'm sure a guy had an AK47 and got caught and sentenced to home detention.
They have had mass shootings in the past but not for a long time.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> I do not see assault rifles  being banned just yet. It's not easy to change.
> 
> .




Ahhh, it already happened dude.

In 1994 a federal 10 year assault weapons ban was signed into law, Yes it expired in 2004, but it shows it can happen.

Also assault weapons are banned at the state level in certain states such as California.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> You sure that's not the Disney version?
> 
> No carpet bombing, just knock down one building... then another, then another. At least that's what the Israelis did on Gaza during its last "mowing the lawn". Well, they kinda give a gentle "knock" through the roof first then in 5 minutes the building comes down no matter who's in it.
> 
> ...



Lots of door to door operations happen, even on massive scale such as Fallujah.


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Ahhh, it already happened dude.
> 
> In 1994 a federal 10 year assault weapons ban was signed into law, Yes it expired in 2004, but it shows it can happen.
> 
> ...



They tried to renew that ban and introduce one with no sunset clause and it was sunk. From memory Bill Clinton put that in place. 
Automatic weapons were banned after a massacre 80s or 90s maybe? 

I'm saying in the current political climate it won't happen. Dems need control and numbers for it to happen and even then it won't happen easy.
The people don't trust the government. 
And they only ban the sale generally of any  new weapons sold.
And a lot of state bans get struck down in court.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> I'm saying in the current political climate it won't happen. Dems need control and numbers for it to happen and even then it won't happen easy.




Mid term elections coming up soon, lets see what happens then.


----------



## Tink (24 February 2018)

I am not for guns, but was just stating that they had similar views.

----------------------------

_GENEVA — The Swiss are armed to the teeth. 

Only the United States and Yemen have more guns per capita than this Alpine nation of 8.5 million people. 

But mass shootings are rare here unlike in the U.S. where the country is still reeling from its latest tragedy at a Florida high school that left 17 dead.

About 2 million guns are estimated to be in circulation in Switzerland, according to GunPolicy. org, which publishes international data on firearms. 

Though weapons are ubiquitous here and gun laws are relatively liberal, crime is low. In the past 10 years, guns were used in less than 120 homicides, government figures show. 

Switzerland hasn’t seen a mass shooting since 2001, when a gunman opened fire in the legislative body in the Canton of Zug, fatally shooting 14 people before killing himself. 

So, what is Switzerland doing differently?

Vigilance is one factor.

As an extra safety net, the government encourages professionals like mental health providers to report anyone they suspect of being dangerous, and has created a database listing all gun license refusals.

“We check it every time someone wants to purchase a firearm to make sure it doesn’t end up in wrong hands,” said Lulzana Musliu, a spokeswoman for the Federal Office of Police, which oversees the sale and licensing of guns.

For the U.S., 2017 was considered the deadliest year for mass shootings in more than a decade. The runner-up: 2016, which saw 188 people lost in such attacks.

The Florida shooting rampage has rekindled interest in legislation that allows a judge to order authorities to remove guns from a threatening person or prevent a gun sale if a police officer or relative makes the request.

At least five states in the U.S. have adopted the measures allowing for police to remove weapons or prevent gun sales, under what are often called "extreme risk protection orders." Legislation is pending in Congress urging states to adopt more of the provisions. President Trump and Florida Gov. Rick Scott have each said they will review gun restrictions in an effort to keep weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill.


In Switzerland, the government also banned immigrants from eight countries, including Algeria, Sri Lanka, Turkey and nations of ex-Yugoslavia from owning firearms. This rule stems from political conflicts and hostilities that simmer within these groups, posing “a serious threat” to the safety of our population, Musliu added.

Oversight and legal restrictions only go so far. What also keeps gun violence under control is the sense of responsibility deeply engrained in this safety-conscious society.

“The Swiss use their guns for target practice or hunting. Unlike Americans, they don’t arm themselves to protect their families or commit crime,” Martin Killias, criminology expert at Lausanne University told Geneva’s daily newspaper, Le Temps.

The Swiss Shooting Sports Association has about 3,000 clubs across the country, including a youth section where children as young as 12 learn to handle and shoot a gun safely. Last year, the Defense Ministry contributed about $860,000 for training, and the government donated 10,585 army assault rifles and 930,000 rounds of ammunition to gun clubs.

Swiss history of gun ownership 

Since World War II, soldiers serving in the Swiss military kept their weapons and ammunition at home. This gave rise to the famous “gun in every closet” phrase pro-gun lobbyists in the U.S. and elsewhere used to tout Switzerland’s liberal arms law. 

But that changed somewhat in 2007, a year after Swiss champion skier Corinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were shot by Corinne's estranged husband, who used his old military-issue rifle to commit the murder.

After that incident, the government ordered that ammunition for army weapons be left in arsenals, although the guns could still be kept at home.

Anti-gun activists argued that this rule was ineffective, because it didn’t apply to weapons owned by civilians — collectors, hunters and amateur marksmen. The mainstream consensus was that Swiss gun owners didn’t need any more restrictions because the existing laws regulating the sale and licensing of private guns were stringent enough. 

In 2011, 56% of voters rejected a referendum by leftist parties and church groups trying to ban military guns from private homes on the grounds that existing laws were strict enough._


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2018)

Tink said:


> So, what is Switzerland doing differently?




You didn't read VC's post that said that the Swiss government controls the distribution of ammunition ?


----------



## basilio (24 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> You didn't read VC's post that said that the Swiss government controls the distribution of ammunition ?




That point was made late in the article. But it is significant.


----------



## basilio (24 February 2018)

I keep thinking - "What  events would challege the political structures in the US to re examine the free availability of assault weapons ?"

There have been repeated massacres in malls, schools, nighclubs, churches, parades all types of public events.  I wonder however what impact  would such  events in business meetings, country clubs or "God Forbid" a place like Mar-a-Lago would create ?

Would incidents in these types of places have a different impact ?


----------



## SirRumpole (24 February 2018)

basilio said:


> Would incidents in these types of places have a different impact ?




If the murders of schoolchildren or innocent churchgoers (a big deal in religious USA) has no effect I think it's likely nothing will.

I think that a lot of people including politicians are scared to campaign against guns for for of attracting attention by the crazies, and a bullet or three at their next doorstop.

Even John Howard had to wear a flak jacket in rural areas when trying to get his gun laws through.


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2018)

They store the ammo as well according to a swiss mate. They also have fully automatic weapons available. 
The swiss teach children from a young age about conflict resolution and are very good with mental health care.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2018)

Tink said:


> I am not for guns, but was just stating that they had similar views.
> 
> ----------------------------
> 
> ...




The Swiss have much stronger regulations than the USA when it comes to private guns.

It’s only the military weapons that boost the numbers, and as I said these guns largely just collect dust, sitting in closets with no ammunition.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> They store the ammo as well according to a swiss mate. They also have fully automatic weapons available.
> The swiss teach children from a young age about conflict resolution and are very good with mental health care.



Nope, not since 2007, and the majority of guns are pretty much just souvenirs of people’s military service, it’s not the same gun culture based on fear that the USA have.


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Nope, not since 2007, and the majority of guns are pretty much just souvenirs of people’s military service, it’s not the same gun culture based on fear that the USA have.





Value Collector said:


> The Swiss have much stronger regulations than the USA when it comes to private guns.
> 
> It’s only the military weapons that boost the numbers, and as I said these guns largely just collect dust, sitting in closets with no ammunition.



These are both untrue. They are one of the biggest sporting shooter nations.
They have a huge shooting culture.
They can also buy their service weapon once they are done (once a permit is obtained).
Every man must join the militia or be taxed extra. They encourage shooting to keep their skills up.



> "Switzerland was at risk of being invaded by Germany during World War II but was spared, historians say, because every Swiss man was armed and trained to shoot," according to TIME.




So a few guys with guns against tanks planes and bombs huh.

I can buy the same gun as used in the massacre- in Switzerland and NZ probably in a lot of other countries as well. Gun crime is going down in most of these countries.

Americans problem is there are no checks and little regulation, plus a rampant Rambo culture. 

So good luck with attempted bans, in my opinion it will just be ignored.  The US needs to redefine the way it views firearms and start with regulation, early education and checks. There are too many guns in the system already.


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Nope, not since 2007, and the majority of guns are pretty much just souvenirs of people’s military service, it’s not the same gun culture based on fear that the USA have.



According to my mate they can keep ammo at home if they are guarding certain infrastructure.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> These are both untrue. They are one of the biggest sporting shooter nations.
> They have a huge shooting culture.
> They can also buy their service weapon once they are done (once a permit is obtained).
> Every man must join the militia or be taxed extra. They encourage shooting to keep their skills up.
> ...





As I said, totally different gun culture to the USA.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Lots of door to door operations happen, even on massive scale such as Fallujah.





That's probably the Clint Eastwood version there.

Chomsky called Fallujah the worst massacre since Vietnam. Saying that it's hailed as a great victory where general Petraeus became god and lord protector but the city was practically destroyed. Not sure but I think he might have compared it to the raid of the Mongols 800 years ago.

UN and Iraqi doctors report that cancer rate after the operation was higher than that of Hiroshima - high use of depleted uranium. Birth defects off the scale. etc. etc.

Then there's the returned vets physically or psychologically injured. Some US estimate put that cost in the trillions for just two wars alone. But then the US tend not to do much to take care of their returned vets so maybe that's somebody else's problem.

Pretty senseless. Could just hand the Iraqis half the financial costs so far and we'd all have peace, friends and oil we want from them. 

But then the cost of war are paid for by the taxpayers, the soldiers are mainly from poor families, and profits goes to the top soooo I guess it make a lot of sense.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> Towns are softened up before they send the troops in. US just sends the Kurds in so US troops don't get shot.
> 
> It is extremely challenging taking cities though.




Yea, I read that from Sun Tzu 

[The objective of military operation is victory, not fighting.
It is better to take an army whole than to destroy it;
Better to take a city whole than to destroy it.

Therefore, the greatest strategy is to win without fighting.
Next best is to attack where they cannot defend.
Worst is to attack walled cities.]

I definitely misquote him above. But he's so smart even I can't ruin his observation.


US post-WWII planners were quite ingenious. They managed to control and own practically the entire world without most anyone knowing about it. 

Not sure if the recent flare up across most of the world are the result of poorer quality strategists or declining economic power and influence, or a bit of both. 

But yea, you know your grip is losing when colonies are either in flame or not taking order as swiftly as they used to. 

Take South Korea. Trying to ask why certain defensive systems are imported into their country, for their own security. Grudgingly going along with war games while trying to talk peace and hold hands with their number one enemy... not putting enough troops and ships behind its obligation to enforce your sanctions that you're planning to send your own "coast guard" over.


----------



## luutzu (24 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> If the murders of schoolchildren or innocent churchgoers (a big deal in religious USA) has no effect I think it's likely nothing will.
> 
> I think that a lot of people including politicians are scared to campaign against guns for for of attracting attention by the crazies, and a bullet or three at their next doorstop.
> 
> Even John Howard had to wear a flak jacket in rural areas when trying to get his gun laws through.




If children or people of certain tax brackets are at the same risk of getting into one of these crazy massacre, things will change in a heartbeat. 

'til then, they beefed up on security and private body guards. The poorer ones live in gated community, gentrify the suburbs around those gates and have police circles them streets more frequent than not. 

These measures work in all third world countries so why not. Well, until maybe the Tesla map take them off course and away from the supercharger or something.


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> As I said, totally different gun culture to the USA.




Having a few state issues guns collecting dust in the cupboard until you go along once a year, collect your 50 state issued rounds, have a shoot then go home for another 12 months with an unloaded rifle is nothing like the USA culture


----------



## Value Collector (24 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> That's probably the Clint Eastwood version there.
> 
> Chomsky called Fallujah the worst massacre since Vietnam. Saying that it's hailed as a great victory where general Petraeus became god and lord protector but the city was practically destroyed. Not sure but I think he might have compared it to the raid of the Mongols 800 years ago.
> 
> ...



Very different from carpet bombing or dropping a nuke, and answers the question above about whether soldiers still fight in he ground


----------



## moXJO (25 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Having a few state issues guns collecting dust in the cupboard until you go along once a year, collect your 50 state issued rounds, have a shoot then go home for another 12 months with an unloaded rifle is nothing like the USA culture




Yeah we agree.The culture is different but the guns are the same. Access to ammo isn't that hard to get yet no massacres at schools in Switzerland. So yes its a cultural thing.

My issue is calling for bans won't work.
It has to be done in such a way that the public will accept it. Otherwise another decade rolls on. If they start education early enough now,  dribble in regulation then "Rambo culture" starts getting bred out.

The major difference with the swiss is that the can afford it. US has too many poor areas and low IQ mental cases. Don't let the crazies have guns. 

US is a massive shithole in reality. It was a real crumbling empire when I was there. Prisons are full, heaps of homeless. You wonder how long its going to last as top dog.


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## moXJO (25 February 2018)

luutzu said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It will be the rise of the asians and goodbye whitey from this neck of the woods imo. Give it a decade or two.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2018)

moXJO said:


> Yeah we agree.The culture is different but the guns are the same. Access to ammo isn't that hard to get yet no massacres at schools in Switzerland. So yes its a cultural thing.
> 
> My issue is calling for bans won't work.
> It has to be done in such a way that the public will accept it. Otherwise another decade rolls on. If they start education early enough now,  dribble in regulation then "Rambo culture" starts getting bred out.
> ...



I disagree bans would work, give “Rambo” a bolt action with a 6 round magazine and he is not going to kill as many people as he did in Las Vegas


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## moXJO (25 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I disagree bans would work, give “Rambo” a bolt action with a 6 round magazine and he is not going to kill as many people as he did in Las Vegas



It won't  because there are already so many guns in circulation. And how long will it be upheld. 
It ain't happening anytime soon without culture change first.


----------



## IFocus (25 February 2018)

The issue is run by a gun club, weaken the NRA (the kids could do this) and then you will have change.


----------



## basilio (25 February 2018)

Sarah Chadwick// #NEVERAGAIN *✔*  @sarahchad_ 


We should change the names of AR-15s to “Marco Rubio” because they are so easy to buy.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2018)

Some companies are cutting ties with the NRA.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-25/companies-abandon-nra-in-wake-of-florida-shooting/9482536


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## Junior (26 February 2018)

No quick fix....so many guns in circulation and pollies in fear of a voter backlash.

Stop selling automatic weapons and do stringent background checks on new purchases, that would be a start at least!


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## SirRumpole (26 February 2018)

Junior said:


> No quick fix....so many guns in circulation and pollies in fear of a voter backlash.
> 
> Stop selling automatic weapons and do stringent background checks on new purchases, that would be a start at least!




Does anyone know if you have to register guns in the US, or can you just go to a dealer and buy one over the counter ? Is there a database saying who owns what ? That would seem a pretty basic administrative requirement.


----------



## luutzu (26 February 2018)

Junior said:


> No quick fix....so many guns in circulation and pollies in fear of a voter backlash.
> 
> Stop selling automatic weapons and do stringent background checks on new purchases, that would be a start at least!




The gov't can buy it back. 

Survey show that 60% of Americans can't afford a $1,000 emergency. 

A lot of them wouldn't mind a buyback program I'd reckon.

But then where's the money in that. Some guy was saying that if 20% of American school teachers were to be armed... that's about $1B in sales. Kar ching!


----------



## moXJO (26 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Does anyone know if you have to register guns in the US, or can you just go to a dealer and buy one over the counter ? Is there a database saying who owns what ? That would seem a pretty basic administrative requirement.



Its the secondhand market thats the problem. Not sure if its been tightened up at all, but it was shockingly easy to buy guns through boot sales


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## Value Collector (26 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Does anyone know if you have to register guns in the US, or can you just go to a dealer and buy one over the counter ? Is there a database saying who owns what ? That would seem a pretty basic administrative requirement.





I am pretty sure most states don't have to register.

And, the NRA lobbyists have made it that the records that are kept are stored at the gun shops, not an offical government database.

What this video at the 6 minute mark to see how pathetic the record keeping is.


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## SirRumpole (26 February 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I am pretty sure most states don't have to register.
> 
> And, the NRA lobbyists have made it that the records that are kept are stored at the gun shops, not an offical government database.
> 
> What this video at the 6 minute mark to see how pathetic the record keeping is.





Thanks VC, pathetic it is indeed.


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## Tisme (26 February 2018)

Dirty Harry on 7mate ... do you feel lucky punk?


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## basilio (1 March 2018)

Lets give teachers guns in US schools and see what happens....

*Georgia teacher in custody after allegedly opening fire in classroom, police say*
By  Kathleen Joyce,   Elizabeth Zwirz   | Fox News

*Teacher allegedly fires gun in classroom, taken into custody*
Raw video: Police spokesperson Bruce Frazier updates media on incident at Dalton High School in Georgia where a teacher allegedly barricaded himself in a classroom before opening fire.

A teacher has been taken into custody after allegedly firing at least one shot inside a Georgia high school classroom Wednesday, police said. 

The Dalton Police Department identifed the teacher as Jesse Randall Davidson, 53, a social studies teacher who also does play-by-play announcements during the school's football games. He has been employed with the school since 2004.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/2...after-reports-shots-fired-at-high-school.html


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## moXJO (1 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Lets give teachers guns in US schools and see what happens....
> 
> *Georgia teacher in custody after allegedly opening fire in classroom, police say*
> By  Kathleen Joyce,   Elizabeth Zwirz   | Fox News
> ...



Sounds a bit staged. Social studies teacher,  cleared out classroom,  fires a shot out the window into the ground.


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## qldfrog (1 March 2018)

is it just me or is Trump not going to take the first measure toward more sanity? I know it is Trump so wrong and I am sure it is not enough..but could it not be more than what our dear obama did..aka nothing but words


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## Knobby22 (1 March 2018)

qldfrog said:


> is it just me or is Trump not going to take the first measure toward more sanity? I know it is Trump so wrong and I am sure it is not enough..but could it not be more than what our dear obama did..aka nothing but words



Trunp used to be for gun control before he was President. Secretly he still is, but the gun lobby is powerful!


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## qldfrog (1 March 2018)

yes but he has more chance to put reasonable measure in place than Obama (I am not talking australia style where bb gun ownership requires a range training..our gun control is only a model for cafe latte city leftists in my opinion)


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## Tisme (2 March 2018)

Has a genuine study been had on the deterrent value of guns in the USA?  

Places like New York and New Jersey have relatively low rates of gun deaths compared to say Texas


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## basilio (2 March 2018)

The reverence for guns in the US.

* Worshippers clutching AR-15 rifles hold blessing ceremony at US church – video *

Worshippers wearing crowns and clutching AR-15 rifles drank holy wine and exchanged or renewed wedding vows in a commitment ceremony at a Pennsylvania church, prompting a nearby school to cancel classes. Attendees gripped the guns, which they had been urged to bring unloaded to the church in the rural Pocono Mountains, about 100 miles (160 km) north of Philadelphia. A spokesman for the church, now headed by the Rev Hyung Jin Moon, said, 'Each of us is called to use the power of the "rod of iron" not to arm or oppress as has been done in satanic kingdoms of this world, but to protect God's children', citing the biblical Book of Revelation

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...les-hold-blessing-ceremony-at-us-church-video


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## SirRumpole (2 March 2018)

qldfrog said:


> * Worshippers clutching AR-15 rifles hold blessing ceremony at US church – video *




Words fail me.


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## luutzu (2 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Words fail me.




They did warned us that if the gays were allowed to be married, it could lead to anything and anyone getting married.


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## notting (2 March 2018)

It seems so insane but it can be explained with one simple statistic In 2017, about 42 percent of U.S. households had at least one gun in possession. 
then there are the unregistered guns which takes it up to an estimated 61%.
Some of the mass school shootings where done with handguns.
The only solution is to ban hand guns and semi automatics.
No one will get elected on that.
You will not find a US politician running on that or even suggesting the ban that is really needed.
It's not just the IRA.  
It's the culture.  It's America


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## qldfrog (2 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Words fail me.



note this was not my post!!!


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## SirRumpole (2 March 2018)

qldfrog said:


> note this was not my post!!!




Noted Mr Frog.


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## basilio (6 March 2018)

*Congratulations, awards and special mentions to the best Crisis Actors in 2018 School Massacres  division.*

*shootings  
Opinion
 Congratulations to the winners of this year's Crisis Actor Awards! 
First Dog on the Moon 

It takes a cast of thousands to enable any mass shooting to happen. No one ever wants to take credit but tonight we pay tribute to the best of the best

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...the-winners-of-this-years-crisis-actor-awards





*


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## Boggo (6 March 2018)

Irony !
Anti gun celebs, being protected by people with firearms while protesting the Constitutional right to own firearms while receiving awards for starring in movies where they portray characters using firearms.


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## CanOz (6 March 2018)

Well done boggo, pretty much sums up the basket case that is THE USA!


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## basilio (15 March 2018)

Some amazing stories coming out of US regarding guns

1) Students across US stage co-ordinated walkout to protest against gun violence. (Note at least one school group was threatened with "severe consequences" if they joined the protest)
* 'Enough': US students come together in spectacular walkout to end gun violence *

About 3,000 schools across America protest in coordinated riposte
Students step out of classrooms to spur action for change
Walkout Wednesday – live updates
Tom McCarthy and Adam Gabbatt in New York, Lois Beckett in Alexandria, Richard Luscombe in Parkland and Jamiles Lartey in Atlanta

Wed 14 Mar 2018 12.39 EDT   Last modified on Wed 14 Mar 2018 18.00 EDT


*Shares*
6506




Students from Fiorello H LaGuardia high school chant ‘no more violence’ on their walkout. Most demonstrations were planned to last 17 minutes, one for each of the Parkland victims. Photograph: Mike Segar/Reuters
Thousands of students poured out of classrooms in the US on Wednesday in an unprecedented expression of mourning and a demand for action to stem the country’s epidemic of gun violence.

In a stunning visual riposte to the public inertia that has followed mass shootings in the US, crowds of students at an estimated 3,000 schools across the country marched on running tracks, through parking lots and around building perimeters, carrying signs that read “Enough” and chanting, “Hey hey, ho ho, gun violence has got to go”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/14/walkout-students-gun-violence-parkland-florida

2) A teacher* trained in firearms use *accidentally fires a gun in aclassroom injuring 3 students.

* Teacher accidentally fires gun and injures three students in safety lesson *
Dennis Alexander suspended after pointing a gun at the ceiling in an attempt to make sure it was not loaded, when the weapon discharged

Guardian staff and agencies

Wed 14 Mar 2018 13.51 EDT   Last modified on Wed 14 Mar 2018 13.55 EDT


*Shares*
1945




Seaside high school is located near Monterey in northern California. Photograph: SHS
A teacher trained in weapons use has been suspended after accidentally firing his gun in a classroom in California, injuring three students.

Dennis Alexander was teaching a gun safety lesson for his administration of justice class at Seaside high school, near Monterey in northern California, on Tuesday.

The police say the teacher, who also serves as a reserve police officer, was pointing the gun at the ceiling in an attempt to make sure it was not loaded, when the weapon discharged.

Three students were injured by debris, including a 17-year-old whose father told local TV station KSBW that his son was hurt when bullet fragments lodged in his neck.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...fety-lesson-fires-injures-students-california


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## SirRumpole (15 March 2018)

Good on the kids. I hope someone listens to them.


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## basilio (15 March 2018)

The kids have balls. After the NRA decided to go ballistic on all the lying Press challenging the NRA views on gun control there was a powerful response.

*We have our own hourglass': Florida shooting survivor responds to NRA threats*

Students from the Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school have responded to the NRA's threats targeting critics of the gun lobby.

Updated Updated 7 March
By Natasha Christian

Parkland students behind the #NeverAgain movement, created by survivors in the aftermath of the Stoneman Douglas Shooting have responded to NRA spokeswoman Dana Loesch’s threats aimed at critics of the gun lobby.

The February 14 shooting left 17 dead and sparked strong criticism of the NRA and calls for tougher gun control in the US.

In a video for NRATV Ms Loesch fired off a warning to journalists, politicians and celebrities who had spoken out against the NRA in the shooting aftermath.

*“To every lying member of the media, to every Hollywood phony, to the role model athletes who use their free speech to alter and undermine what our flag represents. To the politicians who would rather watch America burn than lose one ounce of their personal power," she said.

“We’ve had enough of the lies, the sanctimony, the arrogance, the hatred, the pettiness, the fake news”.

Ms Loesch then flipped an hourglass and warned: “time’s up”.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/we-have...ida-shooting-survivor-responds-to-nra-threats*


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## moXJO (15 March 2018)

Kids can't vote. Who cares. 

See you after the next massacre.

Regards
NRA


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## basilio (15 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Kids can't vote. Who cares.
> 
> See you after the next massacre.
> 
> ...




And when do 17 year olds get a vote in the US ?  (Hint  very, very soon.)


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## moXJO (15 March 2018)

basilio said:


> And when do 17 year olds get a vote in the US ?  (Hint  very, very soon.)




See if there is any changes. I ain't holding my breath. But trump is anti guns,  so who knows what will happen.
He will be going against his base supporters though.


----------



## CanOz (15 March 2018)

At the end of the day the US is the most legitimately corrupt nation on the planet, the Dems and the Rebloods both are powerless to stop the NRA and similar lobby groups....that is true evil, to steal away freedom and democracy from the nation that led it in the first place....


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## luutzu (15 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> See if there is any changes. I ain't holding my breath. But trump is anti guns,  so who knows what will happen.
> He will be going against his base supporters though.




Which base? The one that supported and voted for him OR the one that own whoever is in the hot seat?

He seem serious about that stupid wall though. Great use of about $20Billion, give or take $10B. It's not like there aren't any city in the US with lead in the water; schools falling to bits; roads and bridges collapsing.


----------



## BlownAccount (20 March 2018)

CanOz said:


> At the end of the day the US is the most legitimately corrupt nation on the planet, the Dems and the Rebloods both are powerless to stop the NRA and similar lobby groups....that is true evil, to steal away freedom and democracy from the nation that led it in the first place....



Geeze....


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## CanOz (20 March 2018)

That’s the thing that bothers me the most about the NRA, it is more powerful than democracy...


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## SirRumpole (25 March 2018)

Gun reform gains momentum in the US.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...cross-us-to-urge-tighter-gun-controls/9584438


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## bellenuit (25 March 2018)

I came across this today on Twitter.


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## basilio (28 March 2018)

*Destroying teenagers who are demanding gun reform.*
No surprises here. 

* How rightwingers have attacked Parkland students with lies, hoaxes and smears *
As of this weekend, this group of idealistic young people have officially become the right’s leading hate figures

Jason Wilson

 @jason_a_w 
Mon 26 Mar 2018 15.54 EDT   Last modified on Tue 27 Mar 2018 13.58 EDT


*Shares*
48k




Emma Gonzalez, a shooting survivor from Parkland, Florida, cries as she addresses the ‘March for Our Lives’. Photograph: Jonathan Ernst/Reuters
No issue unites the American right more than their opposition to gun control. The spectacle of hundreds of thousands participating in the #marchforourlives, led by young people, was always going to draw a full-spectrum response.

And as of this weekend, this group of idealistic young people have officially become the right’s leading hate figures.

The first and most repugnant strategy was to directly attack high-profile campaigners, especially students David Hogg and Emma Gonzalez. 

Running short of reasoned arguments, many attempted to push conservative buttons with high impact visuals. *Alt-right social media company Gab was one of many that disseminated a doctored animation of Gonzalez in which she falsely appeared to be tearing up the US constitution. Cartoonist and Trump sycophant Ben Garrison depicted Hogg as an assault rifle, wielded by CNN, and loaded with Marxism. Breitbart re-published a round of tweets accusing Hogg of throwing a Nazi salute. *

On Front Page – an outlet led by David Horowitz, whose main stock in trade is virulent Islamophobia – Bruce Thornton decried Hogg’s “profanity laced tantrums” and reduced him and his fellow students to political “shock troops” being manipulated by a progressive “ideology of melodrama and moral exhibitionism”.

Alex Jones thought it wise to continue his dispute with Hogg over whether chemical additives in water really turn frogs gay. The website WND simply called him “Vile Hogg”. 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...d-hogg-attacks-rightwing-constitutions-hoaxes


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 March 2018)

*Reuters Top News*‏Verified account @*Reuters* 7h7 hours ago




Ex-Supreme Court justice urges Second Amendment repeal in U.S. gun rights debate https://reut.rs/2I5DaBB
"...In his article, Stevens described how the Supreme Court had curbed the Second Amendment’s reach during the 20th century and labeled the concern that prompted the amendment - that a national army might pose a threat to the separate states during the United States’ infant years - “a relic of the 18th century.”

The amendment’s text reads: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Stevens wrote that repealing the amendment “would eliminate the only legal rule that protects sellers of firearms in the United States — unlike every other market in the world.”

“It would make our schoolchildren safer than they have been since 2008 and honor the memories of the many, indeed far too many, victims of recent gun violence.”

Stevens, nominated to the court by Republican President Gerald Ford, had previously called for modifying the Second Amendment.

Changes to the Constitution can be proposed only with a two-thirds vote in the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called by two-thirds of the states, and must be ratified by three-fourths of the 50 states.

The overwhelming majority of amendments have not passed, and only one has been repealed. The 27th Amendment, which concerns lawmakers’ pay, is the most recent change to the constitution. It was ratified in 1992, although it was originally proposed in 1789."

(only 203 years!)


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## moXJO (28 March 2018)

basilio said:


> *Destroying teenagers who are demanding gun reform.*
> No surprises here.
> 
> * How rightwingers have attacked Parkland students with lies, hoaxes and smears *
> ...



Leftist trash.


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## basilio (28 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Leftist trash.




Rightist lies.  

Are you saying these pieces of shite websites didn't make up fake smears of the student leaders of the gun reform march Moxjo?  That in fact their lies are true ?

Or are you just saying that because they are called out for such calumnious shite it's automatically "leftist trash"?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 March 2018)

Interesting...


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-28/america-oldest-gunmaker-remington-files-for-bankruptcy/9595622

--


----------



## moXJO (28 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Rightist lies.
> 
> Are you saying these pieces of shite websites didn't make up fake smears of the student leaders of the gun reform march Moxjo?  That in fact their lies are true ?
> 
> Or are you just saying that because they are called out for such calumnious shite it's automatically "leftist trash"?



I'm saying it's a proactive article designed to inflame an already tinder dry situation. It's hate either side. And you are either, losing yourself in the sh1tstorm, or willingly to smear everyone on the right.

When you are standing up asking everyone to give up their rights as written in their constitution, then its probably a good idea not to throw in with the dumbsh1ts that have already cemented their position with meme hate.

Americans love their freedom and will defend it to the death. And right now the left and right hate one another. Goodluck finding common ground. 

There are millions of Americans willing to fight rather than give up their guns.
The narrative needs to focus on whats achievable and tighten up background checks on guns and make it harder for those suffering mental problems.

This idiot idea that all guns will be banned is a pipe dream.


----------



## CanOz (28 March 2018)

Actually the laws in the US would most likely already be tight enough to make a difference. However, the NRA makes it almost impossible to enforce the laws....

Ban the NRA!


----------



## basilio (28 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> The narrative needs to focus on whats achievable and tighten up background checks on guns and make it harder for those suffering mental problems.




Agree.  In fact that is what the students are trying to achieve. Check out the the reference below.

But who started this xhitstorm Moxjo ? The students are focusing on tightening up background checks, raising the legal age to buy weapons from 18 to 21! and better checks on the mental health of people who buy guns. That's it.

Until their 19 year ex schoolmate came into their school and hunted and killed their friends they were just ordinary nobodies. Now because they have decided to literally "March for their Lives" the right, alt right and far right media has  depicted them as  Nazis, marxists, stools, phonies and made up a score of other vitriolitic xshit. They never, *ever* looking at the issues of out of control gun ownership as a major contributing cause of the  massacres that occur like clockwork.

And then someone decides to defend these teenagers by pointing out this xshit - and this is seen as leftist trash inflaming  the situation!  Give us a break.

*March for Our Lives*
*"*
March for Our Lives was a student-led demonstration in support of tighter gun control that took place on March 24, 2018, in Washington, D.C., with over 800 sibling events throughout the United States and around the world.[3][4][5][6][7] Student organizers from Never Again MSD planned the march in collaboration with the nonprofit organization Everytown for Gun Safety.[8] The event followed the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, which was described by many media outlets as a possible tipping point for gun control legislation.[9][10][11]

Protesters urged for universal background checks on all gun sales, raising the federal age of gun ownership and possession to the age of 21,[12] closing of the gun show loophole, a restoration of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban, and a ban on the sale of high-capacity magazines in the United States.[13] Turnout was estimated to be between 1.2 to 2 million people in the United States,[14][15][16] making it one of the largest protests in American history.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_for_Our_Lives

*Response from some  media to the marchers.*

https://twitter.com/getongab 
 What actually happened  https://www.buzzfeed.com/talalansar...vivor?bftwnews&utm_term=.ijkWv9EVZ#.xk1zdgPlO
https://grrrgraphics.com/assault-weapon/
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/269703/teenagers-make-great-progressive-shock-troops-bruce-thornton


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2018)

There is a push to start banning guns altogether by a section of the left. And this is what is causing a push back. 

The NRA did not doctor photos. It was done by a small section of the "alt-right" who apparently are the new nazis. But everyone is a nazi now.

Bas you are reaching for sensationalist crap to drive an agenda when it isn't needed. No one here reached out and posted doctored photos.

Rightly, or wrongly, the NRA is defending freedoms it believes is every Americans right. When the government starts encroaching on those freedom's then their will always be a backlash.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Rightly, or wrongly, the NRA is defending freedoms it believes is every Americans right.




No they are like politicians defending their donors, the gun manufacturers.


----------



## Value Collector (29 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> Rightly, or wrongly, the NRA is defending freedoms it believes is every Americans right. When the government starts encroaching on those freedom's then their will always be a backlash.




As did the slave owners and traders.

Times change, society changes so can laws.


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> As did the slave owners and traders.
> 
> Times change, society changes so can laws.



That is possibly the dumbest stretch I have read.
I am not aware of a written constitutional right to own a slave. 
Individual freedom has nothing to do with slave owning. Or restricting the rights of others.


----------



## basilio (29 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> I am not aware of a written constitutional right to own a slave.
> Individual freedom has nothing to do with slave owning. Or restricting the rights of others.



Perhaps worth refreshing your history/politics  knowledge here Mojo.

The slave trade in the UK and US was worth milllions of pounds. The value of these slaves as property was incredibly high. The traders and owners took an exceptionally dim view to anyone interfering with their property rights.
http://abolition.e2bn.org/slavery_45.html


----------



## Value Collector (29 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> That is possibly the dumbest stretch I have read.
> I am not aware of a written constitutional right to own a slave.
> Individual freedom has nothing to do with slave owning. Or restricting the rights of others.




Are you saying that American's in the 1700's and the early 1800's didn't have the right to own slaves?

and the when those rights were threatened the slave owners didn't protest?

---------
In fact the American guns laws were partly put in place to allow the slave patrols to be armed.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/second-amendment-ratified-preserve-slavery/


----------



## basilio (29 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> ---------
> In fact the American guns laws were partly put in place to allow the slave patrols to be armed.
> 
> https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/second-amendment-ratified-preserve-slavery/




That is very illuminating.


----------



## Macquack (29 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> That is possibly the dumbest stretch I have read.
> I am not aware of a written constitutional right to own a slave.
> Individual freedom has nothing to do with slave owning. Or restricting the rights of others.



MoXJO, are you a gun owner?


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Are you saying that American's in the 1700's and the early 1800's didn't have the right to own slaves?
> 
> and the when those rights were threatened the slave owners didn't protest?
> 
> ...




This is bs. Fact check it first.


----------



## luutzu (29 March 2018)

basilio said:


> *Destroying teenagers who are demanding gun reform.*
> No surprises here.
> 
> * How rightwingers have attacked Parkland students with lies, hoaxes and smears *
> ...




And this...

*Rick Santorum: Students should learn CPR, not rally for "phony gun laws"*

These politicians should be worried. This might lead to a new generation of hippies and do-gooders wanting airy fairy stuff like not get shot at school, or on the streets, or by cops.


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2018)

basilio said:


> Perhaps worth refreshing your history/politics  knowledge here Mojo.
> 
> The slave trade in the UK and US was worth milllions of pounds. The value of these slaves as property was incredibly high. The traders and owners took an exceptionally dim view to anyone interfering with their property rights.
> http://abolition.e2bn.org/slavery_45.html



I didn't say slavery didn't exist ffs.

 But at no point was it in the Constitution about owning slaves. Trying to stretch it over to slavery is ridiculous. 
The Republicans were the ones to abolish slavery by the way.



Macquack said:


> MoXJO, are you a gun owner?



No. I don't subscribe to "boars and babes" either.


----------



## luutzu (29 March 2018)

moXJO said:


> I didn't say slavery didn't exist ffs.
> 
> But at no point was it in the Constitution about owning slaves. Trying to stretch it over to slavery is ridiculous.
> The Republicans were the ones to abolish slavery by the way.
> ...




Slavery weren't abolished. It was socialised. No, not the good (red) kind 

Serious. "Freed" slaves were soon imprisoned for loitering or looking at a White lady funny (or not at all)... 

Then the state/taxpayers pay for their imprisonment, feed and housed them... and put them out to work again for next to nothing. 

Still happening right now in the US. Prisoners in some state get paid $1 a day or something to go out and do work.


----------



## CanOz (30 March 2018)

There is no question that the NRA is not dealing with (in a manner to debate at least, the reduction of easy gun purchases) a reality of excessive gun related deaths! 

The NRA is a lobby group that has *ONE SINGLE OBJECTIVE *- the purchase of more guns, regardless of whatever mis-course of normal democratic channels this may involve!

*Death to the NRA and all lobby groups that operate in such an extreme manner so as to attempt the mis course of democratic processes, especially dialogue...and free speech.*

CanOz


----------



## Tisme (18 May 2018)

http://news.ntd.tv/2018/05/17/photo...aduate-carrying-ar-10-on-campus-goes-viral-2/


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2018)

Open carry gun laws only work for white people.

If you are white, cop approaches greets you politely, talks to you and then leaves.

If you black they draw their gun and threaten you.


----------



## Tisme (18 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Open carry gun laws only work for white people.
> 
> If you are white, cop approaches greets you politely, talks to you and then leaves.
> 
> If you black they draw their gun and threaten you.





The over arching problem is the guns in public domains. That and, by USofA race, blacks are sixteen times more likely arrested for robbery, seven times for homicide, etc


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> That and, by USofA race, blacks are sixteen times more likely arrested for robbery, seven times for homicide, etc




There is a lot of reasons behind such statistics, as you can see in the footage they are more likely to be arrested in general, even when doing nothing wrong.

Then you have the poverty side of things, which ever group of people are living in poverty they are more likely to be drawn to crime.

Whether that was Irish immigrants in London or Italians in New York, Poverty = crime.

And there is a whole host of studies that show it is much harder in the USA for a Black person to get out of poverty, Racism is very real, if you think its not, you are deluded.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> The over arching problem is the guns in public domains.




Damn stupid allowing anyone to walk around with a gun.

It's still the Wild West in some places apparently.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Damn stupid allowing anyone to walk around with a gun.
> 
> It's still the Wild West in some places apparently.




Yeah, it pretty much means people like the Las Vegas shooter, haven't committed a crime until they actually start shooting people, they are free to walk into a crowd of people and nothing can be done about it until the shooting starts.


----------



## Tisme (18 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> There is a lot of reasons behind such statistics, as you can see in the footage they are more likely to be arrested in general, even when doing nothing wrong.
> 
> Then you have the poverty side of things, which ever group of people are living in poverty they are more likely to be drawn to crime.
> 
> ...




So now I'm delusional for posting some facts? That's a long bow to draw.

I was brought up in poverty, I didn't resort to crime to satiate my desire to do well. And I didn't need people studying me, but I could have done with hand which I never got and never expected.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> So now I'm delusional for posting some facts? That's a long bow to draw.
> 
> .




No I said you are deluded if you think racism isn't real.


> I was brought up in poverty, I didn't resort to crime to satiate my desire to do well.




Did I say that everyone in poverty resorts to crime? no I didn't.

What I said is that communities with higher poverty levels experience higher lapses into crime.



> And I didn't need people studying me, but I could have done with hand which I never got and never expected




You did have a lot going in your favour, no doubt part of your success was achieved as a result of getting a fair go at some point, and people giving you a chance to succeed.

Simply being white and male has historically meant society gives you a better "suck at the sav" than blacks.

Again, if you honestly feel that none of the things that helped you or pulled others back was due to your race, I think you are deluded.

------------
Now I am not saying that all whites have it easy or its impossible for any blacks to succeed, just that there has been a lot racism built into our culture historically that has worked in favour of some and against others. 

Just the other day two black men had the police called on them for sitting in star bucks, Do you really think if they call the police on them for sitting in the store they will get fair treatment in a job interview?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Simply being white and male has historically meant society gives you a better "suck at the sav" than blacks.




As does being good looking and female vs ordinary girls or guys.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> No I said you are deluded if you think racism isn't real.




Some of it is self inflicted though.

There seems to be an "anti white" sentiment in some areas , especially in Australia. 

Some indigs don't trust the white man because of past events, stick to themselves and view white people's property as fair game.

I'm sure they are a minority, but that is racism too.


----------



## fiftyeight (18 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Open carry gun laws only work for white people.
> 
> If you are white, cop approaches greets you politely, talks to you and then leaves.
> 
> If you black they draw their gun and threaten you.





Whaaaaaat that is one brave black dude!!!!


----------



## moXJO (18 May 2018)

Wasn't one of the statistics that cops were 18.5 times more likely to be shot by blacks? 

And the murder rate for black on black violence in 2014, over 6000 blacks were murdered, more than all white and Hispanic homicide victims combined?


----------



## Darc Knight (18 May 2018)

If the majority of Americans had a black slave and there was a very strong group called the N.S.A. vigorously advocating the rights of Slave owners, slavery would probably still exist in the U.S.


----------



## moXJO (18 May 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> If the majority of Americans had a black slave and there was a very strong group called the N.S.A. vigorously advocating the rights of Slave owners, slavery would probably still exist in the U.S.



If US history didn't exist,  it might.


----------



## Darc Knight (18 May 2018)

God bless the NRA. Making Guns more easily available to unstable people since 1871.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> As does being good looking and female vs ordinary girls or guys.



 Of course, and I would claim anyone who says that doesn't happen is also deluded.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2018)

fiftyeight said:


> Whaaaaaat that is one brave black dude!!!!




Yeah, with the history of trigger happy cops it is very brave.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2018)

moXJO said:


> Wasn't one of the statistics that cops were 18.5 times more likely to be shot by blacks?
> 
> And the murder rate for black on black violence in 2014, over 6000 blacks were murdered, more than all white and Hispanic homicide victims combined?




So what conclusion are you drawing?

are you saying blacks are natural born criminals? or do you accept that certain societal problems including racism may contribute?

Statistics can be looked at in many ways, Cops are also 10 times more likely to shoot other people than be shot themselves.

USA cops are far to trigger happy, this is probably caused by there being to many guns floating around causing them to be paranoid.

Take a look at this Unarmed guy caring for his autistic patient get shot when his hands were up, I doubt it would have happened if he was white. studies have shown people (including cops) are more likely to be fearful of black people, this causes them to have all sorts of issues with police and employment that us white folks just don't have.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> USA cops are far to trigger happy, this is probably caused by there being to many guns floating around causing them to be paranoid.




That would be the case I think, but our cops are pretty trigger happy too, liking shooting dead people carrying knives instead of standing off and maybe shooting them in the leg or other non fatal places.


----------



## moXJO (18 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> So what conclusion are you drawing?
> 
> are you saying blacks are natural born criminals? or do you accept that certain societal problems including racism may contribute?
> 
> ...




If black people shoot more cops, then cops won't be taking any risks. I  wouldn’t for sht pay either. 
It's easy to snark about US cops but they deal with thousands of deadly situations a day. 

Of course theres racism.
There's also fear,  psychopaths, under trained, indifference and all the rest.

You don't know how people will react until they are in a dangerous situation. I've seen people freeze up,  make the dumbest of decisions or just go to water.

The black community has a lot of problems with "thug life" still being idolized. There's a reason cops are on edge.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> That would be the case I think, but our cops are pretty trigger happy too, liking shooting dead people carrying knives instead of standing off and maybe shooting them in the leg or other non fatal places.




To be fair, if some one actually charges you with a knife, you are not going to try and shoot them in the leg, or shoot it out of their hands, it’s not Hollywood.

When you actually need to shoot, you will shoot for what is called “center of seen mass”, 

I have no problem with lethal force when neeed, but I do have a problem with paranoid cops shooting unarmed people.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2018)

moXJO said:


> If black people shoot more cops, then cops won't be taking any risks. I  wouldn’t for sht pay either.
> It's easy to snark about US cops but they deal with thousands of deadly situations a day.
> 
> Of course theres racism.
> ...




So the guy in the video I posted deserved to be shot?

Can you honestly say you would have shot him?


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2018)

Man shot 8 times in the back by police officer,

This cop is currently serving a 20 year sentence for second degree murder.


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> The over arching problem is the guns in public domains. That and, by USofA race, blacks are sixteen times more likely arrested for robbery, seven times for homicide, etc




Arrested do not mean guilty though right?

Guilty might not mean fair and properly defended trial by their peers with no racist cops or ambitious prosecutors with good gut feelings.


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Man shot 8 times in the back by police officer,
> 
> This cop is currently serving a 20 year sentence for second degree murder.





If it weren't for that and another video, the cops would have gotten away with it.. 

They actually planted a gun on the body in another video.


----------



## noirua (19 May 2018)

*Belgian authorities admit two-year-old girl was shot after police chase*
https://www.theguardian.com/global-...two-year-old-girl-was-shot-after-police-chase


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2018)

Cop shoots unarmed man wearing headphones as he walked away unable to hear the cops instructions.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Cop shoots unarmed man wearing headphones as he walked away unable to hear the cops instructions.





So what happens to these coppers ? Do they end up in gaol ?

I wonder whether the Damont/Noor case was a "revenge" situation. " A lot of blacks get shot, so I'll take a white person to even it up".


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2018)

luutzu said:


> Arrested do not mean guilty though right?
> 
> .




Especially when in the USA it seems black guys might be arrested for just sitting in a Starbucks, even the other customers are shocked that the police came an arrested them when they had done nothing wrong.

The employee was uncomfortable and fearful assuming they were up to no good, so called the police, it is hard to imagine that two white guys would get treated so unfairly, or be assumed to present danger.


----------



## moXJO (19 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> So the guy in the video I posted deserved to be shot?
> 
> Can you honestly say you would have shot him?



What did the cop say when he was asked why he shot?
"I don't know"

Some people should not be in the police force or army. At least the army attempts to reprogram cadets and there is a chain of command. Still get terrible decisions though.

We don't know any background incidents that shaped these cops either. Were they affected by a violent incident prior that affected them going forward?

I've been involved in high level adrenaline/violent  situations and seen the weird reactions of all those involved. Not many can handle it,  others it affects over time. And a lot of terrible decisions get made.

There are roughly 11 million arrests in the US a year. I'm not into calling all police racist because of a few incidents a year. Some police are racist, incompetent, shouldn't be there, etc. But I don't feel its a majority number.

I don't like identity politics of "poor niggas" either. The issue is more complex than that.


----------



## Bill M (19 May 2018)

After seeing those last 2 videos I can only say, thank God I don't live in the USA. Those police over there are out of control, racist and trigger happy.

And another unarmed man shot.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2018)

moXJO said:


> Some people should not be in the police force or army.




Absolutely. We had some discussion before about psychopaths in the army, sometimes they can be an advantage, but there is no reason for them in the police forces. I wonder if police recruits have to undergo psychological tests, but even when they stuff up badly they are rarely dismissed or charged, just given an administrative rap over the knuckles.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2018)

And another school shooting. The average is one a week in the US.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-...in-texas-high-school-killing-up-to-10/9778594


----------



## moXJO (19 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely. We had some discussion before about psychopaths in the army, sometimes they can be an advantage, but there is no reason for them in the police forces. I wonder if police recruits have to undergo psychological tests, but even when they stuff up badly they are rarely dismissed or charged, just given an administrative rap over the knuckles.



Violent incidents over time change people as well. You can go in with the best intentions and end up with issues and bad judgment. There is a shelf life on how many high stress incidents you can deal with imo.


----------



## Tisme (19 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> No I said you are deluded if you think racism isn't real.
> 
> 
> Did I say that everyone in poverty resorts to crime? no I didn't.
> ...




When I'm in the US I quite often mix with blacks. They don't scare me, quite affable, but some of the olive skinned ones who persist on talking with a mangled Italian accent are a worry on occasions. 

Growing up in Perth my friends were all makes and models so I don't really carry a negative about them based on race.


----------



## Tisme (19 May 2018)

moXJO said:


> There's a reason cops are on edge.




Of course there is and the easy excuse is they are bigotted, but black coppers shoot black people too. Fear isn't just built on reputation, there's gotta be a lot of first hand experience among the police force.

More white people are shot and killed by police than blacks in the USofA, white people make up 62% of the population.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2018)

moXJO said:


> . I'm not into calling all police racist because of a few incidents a year. Some police are racist, incompetent, shouldn't be there, etc. But I don't feel its a majority number.
> 
> .




I am not saying that the racism is overt, eg I am not saying that these people are closet nazi's or ku klux klan members etc.

Its more about subconscious racism, a person can believe they aren't "Racist" as such, but still be affected subconsciously and make judgements based on race without realising it.

eg - being more likely to be feel threatened by a black person than a white person in the same situation, being more likely to think a black person is lying than a white person, this leads them to be stopped by police more regularly, and leads the police to act more aggressively in situations where a white guy would get the benefit of the doubt.

Obama talks about it here at the 2.45 mark.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2018)

Being White won't always protect you though.

A cop arrives at the scene of an accident between a truck and an SUV, as the SUV owner attempts to get out of his car holding his wallet, he fumbles with the door due to the car being parked on an incline.

The cop mistakes his wallet for a gun and shoots the unarmed airforce member twice.

Another side affect of cop paranoia from operating in a country with loose gun laws.


----------



## Tink (19 May 2018)

Message to the school shooters: past, present and future

https://jordanbpeterson.com/podcasts/40-message-to-the-school-shooters-past-present-and-future/


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2018)

Tink said:


> Message to the school shooters: past, present and future
> 
> https://jordanbpeterson.com/podcasts/40-message-to-the-school-shooters-past-present-and-future/




_"I regard the mass shootings as symptomatic of the nihilism and psychological confusion that so deeply characterizes our society at the current time."_

I think it's just the fact that the mentally ill can get hold of guns too easily.


----------



## McLovin (19 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> _"I regard the mass shootings as symptomatic of the nihilism and psychological confusion that so deeply characterizes our society at the current time."_
> 
> I think it's just the fact that the mentally ill can get hold of guns too easily.




LOL. Yeah I agree. Occam's Razor and all that. But, that won't play well with a sizeable portion of the US population who believe they have a right to own firearms. When the US Constitution was written,_ it only applied to the federal government_. States could legislate who was and who was not allowed firearms. The states were paranoid about tyranny (not unreasonably) and wanted to maintain their own militias in case the national government, with its standing army, went cray cray. That's the reason it's in there.


----------



## moXJO (19 May 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I am not saying that the racism is overt, eg I am not saying that these people are closet nazi's or ku klux klan members etc.
> 
> Its more about subconscious racism, a person can believe they aren't "Racist" as such, but still be affected subconsciously and make judgements based on race without realising it.
> 
> ...




I  understand your point of "don't judge all, on the few" but in dangerous situations people will risk assess.
How good their judgment is on said risk assessment is another thing altogether.

Police would be more prone to adverse risk assessment, as they are exposed to whichever group is over represented in arrests.


----------



## luutzu (19 May 2018)

moXJO said:


> What did the cop say when he was asked why he shot?
> "I don't know"
> 
> Some people should not be in the police force or army. At least the army attempts to reprogram cadets and there is a chain of command. Still get terrible decisions though.
> ...




Training could also play a role. 

Heard that just about every city in the US sent their senior officers to Israel for training. They come back and either implement the training programmes to their station or hire Israeli to come over and consult further.

Surveillance, crowd control, riot policing and other security methods are among Israel's major exports. 

How does Israel come to develop and test their programmes? On the Palestinians. Who are the Palestinians? Enemy combatants and and potential terrorists who's either planning to kill you or about to kill you. 

Not saying it's all the training and the Israeli's exports. But reports from a few major protests in the US showed that the police there don't really see protests as a civil rights afforded the citizens under the constitution etc., They see it as a thread, potential act of terrorism. 

That's why you (do not see reported) what the police did to protestors during that Dakota Access Pipeline/Water Protector. 

There's the cannelling, fencing in protestors they arrested in carpark basement. No toilet, no water. 
There's the annal probes, the strip search. 

Then there's the tear gas, spraying water cannon on them during the northern winter. 

There's the militarisation of their police force. Seem every officer there is part of a SWAT team geared up ready to take out terrorists rather than peaceful demonstrators exercising their rights. 

Add to that mix more than a fair number of psyschos and racists who get kicks out of beating up people.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2018)

Tisme said:


> Growing up in Perth my friends were all makes and models




Lucky you, all those friendly models.


----------



## noirua (20 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Damn stupid allowing anyone to walk around with a gun.
> 
> It's still the Wild West in some places apparently.




Yes indeed!

Heroes of the Wild West who survived in different ways with their guns:

General Custer - George Armstrong Custer -
*George Armstrong Custer* (December 5, 1839 – June 25, 1876) was a United States Army officer and cavalry commander in the American Civil War and the American Indian Wars. Raised in Michigan and Ohio, Custer was admitted to West Point in 1857, where he graduated last in his class in 1861. With the outbreak of the Civil War, Custer was called to serve with the Union Army.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer

Butch Cassidy - *Robert Leroy Parker* (April 13, 1866 – November 7, 1908), better known as *Butch Cassidy*,[1] was a notorious American train robber and bank robber, and the leader of a gang of criminal outlaws known as the "Wild Bunch" in the American Old West. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_Cassidy

Sundance Kid - *Harry Alonzo Longabaugh* (1867 – November 7, 1908), better known as the *Sundance Kid*, was an outlawand member of Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch in the American Old West. He likely met Butch Cassidy (real name Robert Leroy Parker) after Parker was released from prison around 1896. Together with the other members of "The Wild Bunch" gang, they performed the longest string of successful train and bank robberies in American history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundance_Kid

Annie Oakley - *Annie Oakley* (born *Phoebe Ann Mosey*; August 13, 1860 – November 3, 1926) was an American sharpshooter and exhibition shooter. Her "amazing talent"[1] first came to light at 15-years-old when she won a shooting match against traveling-show marksman Frank E. Butler, whom she later married. The couple joined _Buffalo Bill's Wild West_ show a few years later. Oakley became a renowned international star, performing before royalty and heads of state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Oakley

Geronimo - *Geronimo* (Mescalero-Chiricahua: Goyaałé [kòjàːɬɛ́] "the one who yawns"; June 16, 1829 – February 17, 1909) was a prominent leader and medicine man from the Bedonkohe band of the Chiricahua Apache tribe. From 1850 to 1886 Geronimo joined with members of three other Chiricahua Apache bands—the Tchihende, the Tsokanende and the Nednhi—to carry out numerous raids as well as resistance to US and Mexican military campaigns in the northern Mexico states of Chihuahua and Sonora, and in the southwestern American territories of New Mexico and Arizona. Geronimo's raids and related combat actions were a part of the prolonged period of the Apache–United States conflict, which started with American settlement in Apache lands following the end of the war with Mexico in 1848.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo

Wyatt Earp - *Wyatt Berry Stapp Earp* (March 19, 1848 – January 13, 1929) was an American Old West gambler, a deputy sheriff in Pima County, and deputy town marshal in Tombstone, Arizona Territory, who took part in the Gunfight at the O.K. Corral, during which lawmen killed three outlaw Cochise County Cowboys. He is often mistakenly regarded as the central figure in the shootout in Tombstone, although his brother Virgil was Tombstone city marshal and deputy U.S. marshal that day, and had far more experience as a sheriff, constable, marshal, and soldier in combat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyatt_Earp

Doc Holiday - *John Henry* "*Doc*" *Holliday* (August 14, 1851 – November 8, 1887) was an American gambler, gunfighter, and dentist, and a good friend of Wyatt Earp. He is best known for his role as a temporary deputy marshal in the events leading up to and following the Gunfight at the O.K. Corral.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Holliday

Sitting Bull - *Sitting Bull* (Lakota: _*Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake*_ [tˣaˈtˣə̃ka ˈi.jɔtakɛ] in Standard Lakota orthography,[2] also nicknamed _Húŋkešni_ [ˈhʊ̃kɛʃni] or "Slow";[3] c. 1831 – December 15, 1890) was a Hunkpapa Lakota leader who led his people during years of resistance to United States government policies. He was killed by Indian agency police on the Standing Rock Indian Reservation during an attempt to arrest him, at a time when authorities feared that he would join the Ghost Dance movement.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitting_Bull

The Ghost Dance Movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Dance

Jesse James - *Jesse Woodson James* (September 5, 1847 – April 3, 1882) was an American outlaw, bank and train robber, guerrilla, and leader of the James–Younger Gang. Raised in the "Little Dixie" area of western Missouri, James and his family maintained strong Southern sympathies. He and his brother Frank James joined pro-Confederateguerrillas known as "bushwhackers" operating in Missouri and Kansas during the American Civil War. As followers of William Quantrill and "Bloody Bill" Anderson, they were accused of participating in atrocities against Union soldiers and civilian abolitionists, including the Centralia Massacre in 1864.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_James


----------



## Value Collector (21 May 2018)

moXJO said:


> Police would be more prone to adverse risk assessment, as they are exposed to whichever group is over represented in arrests.




But studies show that certain groups are more prone to arrest because they are targeted more.

Take those guys arrested in Starbucks, that is quite a humiliating situation, some people would act up and resist in that situation whether they are white or black, if they had acted up, they might have been arrested for resisting or some bogus police assault charge and added to the statistics against blacks, if its mainly blacks getting this unwarranted police attention, then the statistics will be biased, because whites aren't being put in as many negative situations to draw out certain human behaviours.

of course if you target any group more, you will catch them committing more crimes not necessarily because they are committing more crimes than average, but because you are targeting them at an above average rate.

So stereotypes and statistics can feed on each other and give the wrong impression.


----------



## Tisme (21 May 2018)




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## Tisme (21 May 2018)




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## basilio (23 May 2018)

Tisme said:


>





You wouldn't want to a black guy with that attitude... you'd be dead with a gun in your hand and ice in your boot. Case closed.

______________________________

It could only happen in America
* Woman accidentally shot dead during Florida police academy exercise *
Mary Knowlton, 73, killed after being struck by live round as part of exercise meant to give guidance on how police approach real-world confrontations

Tom Kutsch

Wed 10 Aug 2016 13.46 BST   First published on Wed 10 Aug 2016 12.10 BST





	

		
			
		

		
	
Mary Knowlton was a student on a course for civilians at the Punta Gorda police academy. Photograph: Facebook
A 73-year old woman was killed during a police community seminar on Tuesday in Punta Gorda, Florida, during a routine training exercise.

Mary Knowlton was taking part in a police-hosted informational meeting by the Punta Gorda police academy, when she was fatally shot during an exercise that was supposed to simulate a hypothetical crisis situation.

The “shoot/don’t shoot” scenario – a demonstration that was part of a two-hourCitizens Police Academy event – is intended give guidance about how police determine when to use lethal force in a potentially deadly, real-world confrontation.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...t-dead-during-florida-police-academy-exercise


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## noirua (26 May 2018)

*Wounded Indiana teacher & apos; ran towards bullets&apos; as he stopped school shooter*
https://twosheeep.com/archives/1026239https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/26/wounded-indiana-teacher-ran-towards-bullets-stopped-school-shooter/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...r-ran-towards-bullets-stopped-school-shooter/


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## noirua (10 June 2018)




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## noirua (15 June 2018)

*Shujaat Bukhari* (died 14 June 2018, at the age of 53) was an Indian journalist and editor of Srinagar based _Rising Kashmir_ newspaper. He was killed by an unidentified gunmen[1].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shujaat_Bukhari


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## noirua (17 June 2018)




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## noirua (19 June 2018)

*
Jahseh Dwayne Onfroy* (January 23, 1998 – June 18, 2018),[6] known by his stage name *XXXTentacion*(/ˌɛksˌɛksˌɛksˌtɛntəsˈjɒn/),[7] was an American rapper, singer and songwriter.
Onfroy was shot and killed on June 18, 2018, in Deerfield Beach, Florida.[6]

Born and raised in Plantation, Florida, Onfroy spent most of his childhood in Lauderhill. He began writing music after being released from a youth correction center[8] and eventually released his first song on the audio distribution platform SoundCloud in June 2013, titled "News/Flock". He was a popular figure in SoundCloud rap, a trap scene that takes elements of lo-fi music and harsh 808s.[9][10][11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXXTentacion

*Rapper XXXTentacion killed in drive-by shooting*


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## noirua (21 June 2018)

*Travon Da Shawn Frank Smart* (January 13, 1997 – June 18, 2018),[1] better known by his stage name *Jimmy Wopo*, was an American rapper from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

On June 18, 2018, around 2:30 p.m., Wopo was found shot in the face in the Hill District neighborhood of Pittsburgh. The shooting was a drive-by and Wopo's vehicle was struck multiple times. Another person, who was in the car with Wopo, was also shot but survived and is in stable condition.[12] Wopo later died at a local hospital.[13] He was 21 years old. His death was just a few hours later, on the same day as the murder of Florida rapper XXXTentacion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wopo


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## noirua (29 June 2018)

AT LEAST FIVE PEOPLE WERE KILLED
At least five people were killed when a gunman started shooting in the newsroom of the Capital Gazette newspaper, according to multiple news reports.
http://www.legacy.com/news/celebrit...article/capital-gazette-shooting-victims-2018
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/us/capital-gazette-annapolis-shooting.html





	

		
			
		

		
	
Maryland police officers block the intersection near the building entrance, after multiple people were shot at the Capital Gazette newspaper office in Annapolis, Md., on Thursday.


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## Boggo (29 June 2018)

The loonie media will probably try to cane the NRA again, seems that the law abiding gun owners cop the flack every time there is a shooting.

Just out of interest, the NRA has about 6 million members and around 78% of them actually own a firearm.

Crimes committed by current members of the NRA are actually less than crimes committed by current members of the police force but those facts don't sell newspapers !


----------



## bellenuit (29 June 2018)

Boggo said:


> The loonie media will probably try to cane the NRA again, seems that the law abiding gun owners cop the flack every time there is a shooting.




Of all the US shootings that made headlines over the last few years, I have never heard one report blaming *law abiding *gun owners.

The blame has mainly been placed on the easy accessibility of guns particularly by those who are young, mentally unstable or terrorist orientated. The easy accessibility of guns can be laid squarely at the feet of the NRA, its lobbyists and those in congress who accept funding from them.


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## basilio (29 June 2018)

bellenuit said:


> The blame has mainly been placed on the easy accessibility of guns particularly by those who are young, mentally unstable or terrorist orientated. *The easy accessibility of guns can be laid squarely at the feet of the NRA, its lobbyists and those in congress who accept funding from them*.




Is this too difficult (or too easy.. ) to understand ?


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## Boggo (29 June 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Of all the US shootings that made headlines over the last few years, I have never heard one report blaming law *abiding gun* owners.
> 
> The blame has mainly been placed on the easy accessibility of guns particularly by those who are young, mentally unstable or terrorist orientated. The easy accessibility of guns can be laid squarely at the feet of the NRA, its lobbyists and those in congress who accept funding from them.




The NRA are trying to protect the right of legitimate licensed gun owners to own what they see fit, but yes, it is way too easy for anyone to get a gun over there.

The media and pollies respond to fear and misguided comments by the vocal loonie minority.

A recent example here was the Adler shotgun where they limited it from 8 shot to 5 shot to make it "safe".

As for the pollies, an example was John Howard wearing a vest standing up in front of shooters who can shoot a kangaroo in the head at 100 metres on a foggy night 

Worthwhile watching a program called "Dope" on Netflix. It's about the drug problem in America but really shows where the real gun problem is. In one example there are two 10 year old kids distributing drugs, one is carrying a pistol to protect the other !!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe they should make all guns illegal, it's working well for drugs


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## Junior (29 June 2018)

Pro-gun types can come up with all sorts of excuses, or manipulate statistics or whatnot to support their agenda, but to me the facts are very clear.  More guns = more homicides & more mass shootings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

USA:  5.35 intentional homicides per 100,000 inhabitants   (ranked higher than almost any other developed country)

Australia:   0.94 per 100,000


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## Boggo (29 June 2018)

Junior said:


> *Pro-gun types* can come up with all sorts of excuses, or manipulate statistics or whatnot to support their agenda, but to me the facts are very clear.  More guns = more homicides & more mass shootings.




Very generic statement. I guess I would be classed as a "pro-gun type" since I was 13 years old when I had to spend most nights in a field knocking off foxes before they got to the lambs.

Most of the vocal/keyboard loonies wouldn't have a friggin clue what happens or exists West of Katoomba.

Saw this comment recently, applies to a lot the shortsighted views of the vocal minority...

_I actually think the city/green folk have it worked out. They have created an environment that nothing wants to live in except themselves.
Anything that they class as a pest is exterminated and habitat removed to stop any further infestation.
In their own little micro climate they consume resources and produce very little. _
_Within this micro climate they also believe they have knowledge on everything outside of it but whats astonishing is they also want to have control over it too. _


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## Junior (29 June 2018)

A third of the world's guns are in the USA, and as a result, they have these mass shootings every week.  Often in schools.

I'm not saying confiscate all guns.  I'm saying make it difficult/impossible to get ahold of a gun unless you have a legitimate use or need for one, and background checks have been done.

It seems to have been very effective here in Australia.


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## Junior (29 June 2018)

Boggo said:


> Very generic statement. I guess I would be classed as a "pro-gun type" since I was 13 years old when I had to spend most nights in a field knocking off foxes before they got to the lambs.
> 
> Most of the vocal/keyboard loonies wouldn't have a friggin clue what happens or exists West of Katoomba.
> 
> ...




I don't think we're talking about farmers owning firearms.  There's an obvious practical use there, and that's not the issue.  

Someone with documented mental health problems, easily being able to very easily walk into a shop and purchase a gun, then going and mowing down a bunch of civilians is obviously not an acceptable state of affairs.


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## SirRumpole (29 June 2018)

Junior said:


> A third of the world's guns are in the USA, and as a result, they have these mass shootings every week.  Often in schools.
> 
> I'm not saying confiscate all guns.  I'm saying make it difficult/impossible to get ahold of a gun unless you have a legitimate use or need for one, and background checks have been done.
> 
> It seems to have been very effective here in Australia.




Plus the idea that if you have been convicted of any crime of violence or have made threats against anyone, or you have mental health issues, your licence is cancelled and your guns are confiscated.


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## Boggo (29 June 2018)

Junior said:


> *I'm not saying confiscate all guns.  I'm saying make it difficult/impossible to get ahold of a gun unless you have a legitimate use or need for one, and background checks have been done.*
> 
> It seems to have been very effective here in Australia.




Licensed and responsible gun owners would agree 100% with that statement. The "right" to just walk in off the street (as is the case in some US states) is just asking for trouble and when it goes wrong it affects the law abiding owners more than anyone.

In Australia the procedure is effective but some of the conditions/restrictions (eg Adler) is sometimes silly.

As someone else said, in Australia it is ok to protect paper money with a firearm but it is offensive and illegal for a female to carry an ounce of pepper spray for personal protection


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## moXJO (29 June 2018)

Junior said:


> Pro-gun types can come up with all sorts of excuses, or manipulate statistics or whatnot to support their agenda, but to me the facts are very clear.  More guns = more homicides & more mass shootings.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
> 
> ...



Venezuela didn't they take all the guns away? 
57.15 homicides  per 100k

US is number 81 on the list of homicides.


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## Junior (29 June 2018)

moXJO said:


> Venezuela didn't they take all the guns away?
> 57.15 homicides  per 100k
> 
> US is number 81 on the list of homicides.




Correct.  Significantly more homicides than any country in Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand and majority of Asia.

Going by those stats you are more than FIVE TIMES more likely to be murdered in the US than here in Aus.  They can do a lot better.


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## Boggo (29 June 2018)

A significant difference is who has access to firearms and as with most things education is a factor.

In Switzerland they have mandatory national service and one of the highest gun ownership in the world yet they have a very low rate of incidents.

Their law states "The right to acquire, possess and carry arms is guaranteed in the framework of this law"

Take the guns off the the streets and you won't reduce the criminal problem, take the criminals off the streets and you will reduce the gun problem !


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## moXJO (29 June 2018)

According to the Pew Research Center, almost two-thirds of America’s annual gun deaths are suicides. Since 1981, when the Centers for Disease Control began publishing data, gun suicides have outnumbered gun homicides. In 2010 alone, 19,392 Americans used guns to kill themselves.


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## Knobby22 (30 June 2018)

Boggo said:


> A significant difference is who has access to firearms and as with most things education is a factor.
> 
> In Switzerland they have mandatory national service and one of the highest gun ownership in the world yet they have a very low rate of incidents.
> 
> ...



Switzerland has free healthcare, a wealthy society, good safety net etc.
The USA now has no wage support, little healthcare support etc. This creates the problems. China now has a lower birthing death rate for mothers and babies than the USA. And China is not that good compared to us or Switzerland.


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## Tink (30 June 2018)

Healthcare in Switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland


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## Knobby22 (30 June 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Of all the US shootings that made headlines over the last few years, I have never heard one report blaming *law abiding *gun owners.
> 
> The blame has mainly been placed on the easy accessibility of guns particularly by those who are young, mentally unstable or terrorist orientated. The easy accessibility of guns can be laid squarely at the feet of the NRA, its lobbyists and those in congress who accept funding from them.



I have.
That guy, good law abiding Republican who shot up the music festival from a hotel.


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## noirua (3 July 2018)

*Philippine mayor on Duterte's 'narco-list' slain by 'sniper'*

*Antonio Halili was hit in the chest by a single shot fired from a distance, unleashing chaotic scenes during the weekly flag raising ceremony at the town hall in Tanauan, south of Manila.*

*Town police chief Renato Mercado told AFP the shot was fired from about 150 metres (490 feet) away.*

*Town police chief Renato Mercado told AFP the shot was fired from about 150 metres (490 feet) away.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/philippine-mayor-dutertes-narco-list-slain-sniper-075202490.html*


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## noirua (3 July 2018)

*New York state trooper, suicidal school principal shot dead*
https://www.yahoo.com/news/official-york-state-trooper-suspect-killed-151420580.html


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## noirua (4 July 2018)

*Second Philippine mayor shot dead in two days*
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/second-philippine-mayor-shot-dead-intl/index.html

Mayor Ferdinand Bote of the town of General Tinio in Nueva Ecija province was gunned down by a motorcycle-riding suspect in nearby Cabanatuan City on Tuesday afternoon, police told CNN Philippines.


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## noirua (7 July 2018)

*Jahvante Smart* (November 18, 1996 – June 30, 2018), better known by his stage name *Smoke Dawg*, was a Canadian rapper from Toronto, Ontario. He resided in the city's Regent Park neighbourhood and had Jamaican ancestry.[1] Smoke Dawg was a member of the group Halal Gang, which also included rappers SAFE, Puffy L'z, and Mo-G.[2] He was responsible for the popular remix of "Trap House" in 2015, featuring French Montana.[3] His collaborations extended overseas with a key icon in grime music, Skepta, and their song "Overseas".[4][5] Smoke Dawg was associated with the Toronto music collective Full Circle, which consists of the group Prime Boys (Jay Whiss, Donnie, Jimmy Prime) and Halal Gang.[6][7]During the months of February and March 2017, Smoke Dawg was on the Boy Meets World Tour with Drake.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_Dawg

*Rapper who worked with Drake killed in Toronto shooting*
https://pagesix.com/2018/07/02/rapper-who-worked-with-drake-killed-in-toronto-shooting/


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## SirRumpole (7 July 2018)

r@p is cr@p.


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## noirua (7 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> r@p is cr@p.



*3 REASONS WHY RAP IS THE BEST MUSIC OUT THERE*
https://rappingmanual.com/3-reasons-why-rap-is-the-best-music-out-there/
Rap is arguably one of the most creative art forms in music. We can combine powerful words and phrases, with intricate and complex rhyme schemes, all delivered in a melodic and rhythmic structure, which captivates the heart and soul of the listener. Having all those options and possibilities of being creative, rap artists get confused and often limit themselves, as to how they rap.


----------



## noirua (9 July 2018)

*Massive Protest Against Gun Violence Closes Chicago Highway*
https://www.yahoo.com/news/massive-protest-against-gun-violence-023002177.html


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## noirua (23 July 2018)

*Heart doctor for former President George H.W. Bush killed in bicycle drive-by shooting*
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/h...illed-in-bicycle-drive-by-shooting/ar-BBKSuFa

Dr. Mark Hausknecht and the shooter were both riding bikes on South Main Street, near Texas Children's Pavilion for Women, shortly before 9 a.m. local time, Executive Assistant Police Chief Troy Finner said at a news conference.


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## noirua (23 July 2018)

*Dad Of Brother And Sister Parkland Survivors Fatally Shot In Robbery*
https://www.yahoo.com/news/dad-brother-sister-parkland-survivors-040030149.html


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## noirua (7 August 2018)

*Chicago police appeal for help after more than 60 shot and 10 killed during weekend of gun violence*
The Independent•August 6, 2018
https://www.yahoo.com/news/chicago-police-appeal-help-more-141300092.html


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## noirua (15 August 2018)

*Prosecutors release video of harrowing roadside shootout that injured trooper*
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/d636f8...c9f43838/ss_prosecutors-release-video-of.html


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## noirua (1 October 2018)

*Mississippi city: Vigil for 2 officers killed in shootout*
https://www.yahoo.com/news/prayer-vigil-2-mississippi-officers-killed-shooting-181333478.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/early-morning-confrontation-leaves-2-133855520.html


----------



## noirua (6 October 2018)

*Suspect in shooting of 7 South Carolina officers charged with murder*
https://www.yahoo.com/news/suspect-shooting-7-south-carolina-182959953.html
http://www.startribune.com/the-latest-wounded-deputies-were-investigating-sex-assault/495154571/


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## SirRumpole (6 October 2018)

On the other side of the trigger...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-...ice-convicted-murder-laquan-mcdonald/10346276


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## noirua (7 October 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> On the other side of the trigger...
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-...ice-convicted-murder-laquan-mcdonald/10346276




I guess one shot wounding him and the officer would not have been charged. It's tough out there and it is a get in first every time to survive. If a person holds a knife in America near a police officer, or a gun, they should know they risk being shot.
Police pay isn't enough to take the slightest risk. Quite right for an American Police Officer to shoot and ask questions afterwards.


----------



## noirua (7 October 2018)

Anyway, those were the days - difficult to beat even these days.



*Roy Rogers* (born *Leonard Franklin Slye*, November 5, 1911 – July 6, 1998) was an American singer and actor. He was one of the most popular Western stars of his era. Known as the "King of the Cowboys",[1] he appeared in over 100 films and numerous radio and television episodes of _The Roy Rogers Show_. In many of his films and television episodes, he appeared with his wife, Dale Evans; his golden palomino, Trigger; and his German shepherd dog, Bullet. His show was broadcast on radio for nine years and then on television from 1951 through 1957. His productions usually featured a sidekick, often Pat Brady, Andy Devine, George "Gabby" Hayes, or Smiley Burnette.[2] In his later years, Rogers lent his name to the franchise chain of Roy Rogers Restaurants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Rogers

Actor, Singer. He was born Leonard Franklin Slye in Cincinnati, Ohio to a musical family. His father played guitar and his Kentucky-born mother was a singer. Leonard grew up in Duck Run, Ohio a little town near Portsmouth.
He quit high school after two years forced to work in a shoe factory to help support his family.
At nineteen, he moved to California and formed a band which became known as the Sons of The Pioneers. Soon, they were on the radio and with the songwriting of Bob Nolan a band member, they yodeled and sang their way to stardom.
Their recording "Tumbling Tumbleweeds" becoming a number one hit on the charts. Leonard began working as an extra at Republic Pictures.
Given the name "Roy Rogers" he teamed up with his horse Trigger, and made his first picture "Under Western Stars" while receiving a contract with Republic Pictures which lasted 13 years producing some 37 movies. During World War II, Roy became "The King of The Cowboys," while making numerous USO tours with his horse Trigger raising millions of dollars through the sale of War Bonds.
He began making movies with Dale Evans known as "The Queen of the West." which led to marriage and a partnership which lasted the rest of their lives.
With the onset of television, The Roy Rogers Show staring Roy, Dale and co-star Pat Brady, Trigger, Dale's horse Buttermilk and their dog Bullet aired on NBC lasting for seven years while the song penned by Dale, "Happy Trails" became a hit and the Rogers theme song.
His continued recordings produced another major hit with "Candy Kisses" and finally while Roy and Dale were running their museum in Victorville, California in late life another hit which put him back on the charts "Hold On Partner" from a special "Tribute" album he made at age 80. In 1988, he was elected to the Country Music Hall of Fame.
The couple remained favourites through their connection with Christian programs and the Roy Rogers Museum in Victorville. Roy Rogers died at the age of 86 in his home in at Apple Valley, California from heart failure.
A public service was held at the Church of the Valley with a western theme laced with frontier Army traditions.
With the singing of his western songs by the Sons of the Pioneers, his body was conveyed in a glass enclosed 1898 hearse drawn by a single Clydesdale to his final resting place while accompanied by an array of people dressed in old western style garb.
Dale joined him upon her death and even the animals who starred with the famous couple, Trigger who lived to be 33, Dales horse Buttermilk and even the dog Bullet were all mounted with places of honor in the Roy Rogers-Dale Evans Museum.
However: the stuffed animals as well as the museum, suffering from dwindling attendance, hit the trail and was moved from Victorville to Branson, Missouri in 2003.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 October 2018)

noirua said:


> I guess one shot wounding him and the officer would not have been charged. It's tough out there and it is a get in first every time to survive. If a person holds a knife in America near a police officer, or a gun, they should know they risk being shot.
> Police pay isn't enough to take the slightest risk. Quite right for an American Police Officer to shoot and ask questions afterwards.




Not according to the Court apparently.


----------



## noirua (21 October 2018)

*Police officer shot and killed while responding to report of suspicious vehicle near school*
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/police-of...uspicious-224503339--abc-news-topstories.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/georgia-police-officer-killed-suspect-loose-58637104


----------



## noirua (4 November 2018)

*Yoga shooter appeared to have made misogynistic videos*
https://www.yahoo.com/news/police-search-motive-florida-yoga-studio-slayings-122729464.html

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) -- A brooding military veteran and former teacher appeared to have made videos in which he railed at women and blacks, years before he fatally shot two women at a Florida yoga studio, wounded five other people and then killed himself.


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## noirua (12 May 2019)

*A thousand guns were found in an LA mansion. Then the mystery deepened*
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...e-mystery-deepened/ar-AABdqW5?ocid=spartandhp


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## noirua (16 October 2019)

Watching the Hawks: Fort Worth police kill black woman in her own home


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## noirua (3 November 2020)

Eddie Hassell shot dead aged 30


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## noirua (3 November 2020)

NY hunting licenses surge as COVID-19 pandemic has people seeking 'more ways to enjoy the outdoors': official
					

New York State has seen a surge in people seeking licenses for trapping and big-game hunting as they find new ways to spend their free time amid the novel coronavirus pandemic, officials said.




					www.foxnews.com


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## noirua (23 March 2021)

Gunman shoots and kills 10 people including a cop 'with an AR-15'
					

Ten people were killed Monday afternoon by a gunman who opened fire at a Colorado grocery store as video captured multiple victims lying wounded inside and outside the supermarket.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


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## noirua (23 March 2021)

One police officer killed and multiple others in a Supermarket in Boulder, Colorado.








						10 people killed, including a police officer, in shooting at Colorado supermarket, authorities say
					

A shooting at a Colorado supermarket killed 10 people Monday, including a police officer, and a suspect was in custody, authorities said.




					www.chicagotribune.com


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## The Triangle (25 March 2021)

8 people shot in Georgia with a normal 9mm gun.  Everyone claims a hate crime against asians (despite FBI saying there is no evidence of hate crime).... No one talks about gun control.

Yet 10 whites shot in denver and the MSM and politicians are back to demanding assault rifle bans and more gun control.  

Only when _whites_ get shot up in America does the gun control debate come back.  Assault rifles should be banned.  But if they do it wont make much of a difference.   These loons can still carry 4-5 semiautomatic hand guns.  

...And still no one cares about all the daily shootings in every major city. 

Nothing will come of these shootings.   Talk talk more talk and watered down bills that will do nothing.


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## basilio (13 April 2021)

You can't beat bad luck..
Police say officer who shot and killed unarmed Daunte Wright intended to fire Taser​Brooklyn Center police chief describes fatal shooting of Black man, 20, as result of ‘accidental discharge’ from handgun










						Police say officer who shot and killed unarmed Daunte Wright intended to fire Taser
					

Brooklyn Center police chief describes fatal shooting of Black man, 20, as result of ‘accidental discharge’ from handgun




					www.theguardian.com


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## noirua (14 July 2021)

Rapper shot up to 64 times as he walked out of Chicago jail
		

Londre Sylvester was fitted with equipment for electronic monitoring after being released from the Cook County jail in Chicago and was walking towards a vehicle when several shooters “exited two separate vehicles and all began to shoot in Sylvester’s direction, striking him numerous times,” according to police.

He was rushed to the hospital where he was pronounced dead. As many as 64 bullet wounds were found on his head and other body parts.


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## noirua (24 October 2021)

Ecuadorian sprinter who became national hero at London 2012 shot dead
		
Alex Quinonez, 32, reached the finals of the 200m nine years ago, finishing seventh as he competed in a field that included athletics legend *Usain Bolt*.
Quinonez is the second international athlete killed this month, after Kenyan distance runner *Agnes Tirop *was found stabbed to death at her home.
Earlier this month, the Ecuadorian president declared a 60-day state of emergency to tackle drug trafficking and other crimes in the country.


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## noirua (2 February 2022)

Footballer's model wife shot dead after being caught in crossfire
					

Cristina Vita Aranda is believed to have been caught up in the crossfire of a gunfight in a VIP area at the Jose Asuncion Flores Amphitheatre in Asuncion, Paraguay.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				



A man named as Marcos Ignacio Rojas Mora also died, with unconfirmed reports saying the intended target was a drug dealer identified locally as Ederson Salinas Benitez.

Four people aged between 23 and 40 were also shot and were being treated for their injuries in hospital today.

Ivan, who began his career with Paraguayan side Cerro Porteno before signing for the club's arch-rivals Club Olimpia in December 2014, is said to have suffered a panic attack but was uninjured.


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## noirua (28 February 2022)

Houston police footage captures dramatic shootout that wounded 3 officers
					

Footage released by Houston authorities captured the dramatic moments as officers engaged in a shootout with a carjacking suspect who allegedly wounded three of them in an hours-long chaotic scene.




					www.foxnews.com


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## noirua (1 March 2022)

California church shooting: Dad kills 3 kids, turns gun on himself, police say
					

At least five people are dead, including the suspected gunman, following a shooting at a church in Sacramento, California, on Monday, according to multiple reports.




					www.foxnews.com
				



The gunman killed his three kids before turning the gun on himself around 5 p.m. at an Arden-Arcade area church in Sacramento. Those killed were pronounced dead at the scene and authorities believe the incident was domestic violence-related. The fifth person who died was described as an adult.


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## noirua (11 April 2022)

Biden cracks down on 'ghost guns' with new rule to tackle gun violence
		

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Joe Biden will announce a new rule to rein in ghost guns and ban the manufacturing of such firearms on Monday as the administration faces growing pressure to crack down on gun deaths and violent crime in the United States.

Ghost guns are privately made firearms that are not marked with a serial number and are difficult for law enforcement to trace when used to commit a crime.

Biden and Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco will announce the final rule from the Department of Justice at an event at the White House on Monday. The final rule has been making its way through the federal regulation process for nearly a year and is likely to draw opposition and litigation from gun advocates in the coming weeks.


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## noirua (6 May 2022)

This might or might not be gun violence.








						Barreled body could be first of gruesome discoveries to come at Lake Mead as drought worsens
					

A gruesome discovery was made on the shores of Lake Mead over the weekend – a body stuffed inside a barrel. Officials said it could be the first of these types of discoveries as drought continues to reduce water levels in the reservoir.




					www.foxweather.com


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## noirua (9 June 2022)

House votes to set minimum age of 21 for buying semi-automatic weapons in response to spate of shootings
					

House lawmakers on Wednesday voted to raise the for buying semi-automatic weapons to 21 in response to shootings in Buffalo, New York and Uvalde, Texas.




					www.foxnews.com
				



The legislation passed 223-204, mostly along party lines. It has little chance of clearing the Senate as it pursues negotiations focused on improving mental health programs, bolstering school security and enhancing background checks.


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## The Triangle (9 June 2022)

noirua said:


> House votes to set minimum age of 21 for buying semi-automatic weapons in response to spate of shootings
> 
> 
> House lawmakers on Wednesday voted to raise the for buying semi-automatic weapons to 21 in response to shootings in Buffalo, New York and Uvalde, Texas.
> ...



That'll be as effective as the 21 year-old drinking age.  An 18 year-old with 2 handguns can still shoot up a lot of people.   They'll never pass effective gun control and we all know it.  

The only thing the Americans can do is try to make guns and ammo so expensive that only the rich can afford them (like they're doing with everything else)


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## moXJO (10 June 2022)

Considering the riots that happen there. Can't help but to think back to the rooftop Koreans.
Police abandoned those areas.

Good luck passing anything overly restrictive.


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## noirua (16 June 2022)

Attempted Reagan assassin John Hinckley fully released after 41 years
					

John Hinckley, the attempted assassin of President Donald Reagan, was unconditionally released on Wednesday, 41 years after his 1981 assassination attempt.




					www.foxnews.com


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## noirua (14 September 2022)

Car bomb explodes at Washington funeral, police search for suspect
					

Police in Auburn, Washington, are searching for a suspect who allegedly placed a bomb in a car during a funeral at Mountain View Cemetery on August 23.




					www.foxnews.com


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## noirua (3 November 2022)

Migos rapper Takeoff was fatally shot in Houston, police confirm


			https://twitter.com/i/events/1587398717283237888?s=20


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## noirua (Monday at 5:12 AM)

Moment customer shoots dead masked robber in Texas
					

The robber, believed to be in his 20s, entered Ranchito #4 Taqueria in southwest Houston wearing a black ski mask and gloves before ambushing 10 customers.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


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