# Need advice please on ANZ



## mim168 (8 March 2008)

Hi, Newbie here, had a thought and want someone to clear things up. End of last year  got 950 shares of ANZ at about $29.50 (ouch)-$28,000.
Since the slide loss over $8000.
I was just lookign at Friday price of $20.26. If i sold all my shares I could buy back about 937 shares (loose 13 shares)-depending on price on Monda,if further fall or increase.

My bright idea-is it worth to sell as i have lost money i spent but technically i am still left with same amount of ANZ shares. Hoepfully it will go back up soon, or abandon ANZ altogether?? 
What do expert/more knowleadgable/more experience people think??

Any help would be great, or do i just need a holiday?
thanks in advance

Mimi


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## theasxgorilla (8 March 2008)

You 'got' the shares?  A gift you mean?  Or did you buy them of your own volition?  If so, why did you buy them?

Do you know why they have gone down?

ASX.G


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## mim168 (8 March 2008)

Bought the shares cause back then they were doing ok and was for investment.Think brought them Oct/Nov, before last div payout..

Shares gone down with all the other bank/finance problems at the moment..


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## tasmanian (8 March 2008)

You could always sell them then buy them straight back.

Resulting in a capital loss for this years tax return.Perfectly legal not sure for how long though but not much the tax office can do about it really.So that would be a $8000 capital loss off this years taxes.

Try to get something positive out of it.Thats one way to look at it.

good luck with it cheers


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## theasxgorilla (8 March 2008)

mim168 said:


> Bought the shares cause back then they were doing ok and was for investment.Think brought them Oct/Nov, before last div payout..




Yeah only OK.  They traded at $29 in Oct/Nov 05....despite some peaks and troughs IMO the stock traded sideways for 2 years.  If you were a holder at least you'd have been getting franked dividends.



mim168 said:


> Shares gone down with all the other bank/finance problems at the moment..




Maybe it is.  Maybe these 'other bank/finance problems' get worse.  Or Maybe ANZ goes sideways for another 2 years and you receive the dividends.  Or maybe it goes up again and you find yourself in the black.

Not very helpful I know.  The real question is, for each of the possible scenarios, what are you going to do?  These are decisions best made before you buy.  If you had answers to these questions before you bought, why look to change the plan now?

ASX.G


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## Prospector (8 March 2008)

tasmanian said:


> You could always sell them then buy them straight back.  Resulting in a capital loss for this years tax return.Perfectly legal not sure for how long though but not much the tax office can do about it really.




This isn't legal - ATO will not let you sell shares to maximise the loss, then buy back in again.  There has been no time limit specified, but you would need to wait before buying again.  Someone will find the ato link for this.


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## Trembling Hand (8 March 2008)

Prospector said:


> This isn't legal - ATO will not let you sell shares to maximise the loss, then buy back in again.  There has been no time limit specified, but you would need to wait before buying again.  Someone will find the ato link for this.




Correct its called a "wash sale''. Tried to find the ruling on ATO.gov.au but to big. bottom line. A wash sale is described as a sale and purchase of the same asset within a short period of time where the sale and purchase cancel each other out and there is little or no change in the economic exposure of the owner of the asset.

If you Google it you will get a run down.


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## stargazer (8 March 2008)

Hi all

My information is that it is legal  and has been done in the past.  It is really the reason for doing it that must not be for solely tax reasons.  There has been some media coverage recently on this very thing and the ATO are going to be on the lookout for it, so if you do it you will very likely draw the attention of the ATO. 

Cheers
SG


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## dutchie (8 March 2008)

Sell ANZ buy WBC or CBA etc etc


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## tasmanian (8 March 2008)

If you sold anz monday bought back tuesday do u think the ato is going to chase you up on it??

Talked to my accountant about this exact thing 2 days ago and he recommended me doing it to offset some of my capital gains as I made quite alot last year.He told me alot of his clients do it.There is no law against it atm but I have read the ato is looking into it.

I buy and sell shares in the same company all the time sometimes only hold for one or 2 days then buy back.Its called trading.There is nothing atm the ato can do about it.Dont have to believe me though ask a qualified financial adviser.

There is the 45 day rule on holding stocks for dividend the ato,s got that one covered but there is nothing stopping u selling your shares and then buying them back the next day.How are u to know if the price is going up or down once u sell and buy back.

I believe it is a sound method if you are into holding falling stocks.personally I dont believe in the hold long term approach.If I sell a stock its either taking profits or stop loss getting hit.If I was a long term holder thats exactly what I would be doing atm.some people must be sitting on some losses atm especially in the financials.

good luck whichever way you go.

cheers


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## tasmanian (8 March 2008)

dutchie said:


> Sell ANZ buy WBC or CBA etc etc




Dutchie thats a way to take any doubts out of it.


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## mayk (8 March 2008)

I was looking at big four stocks. They seem to be falling knives right now. We might see a dead cat bounce off ANZ and NAB etc on monday. Sell it then if you really want to.

Yes getting some benefit tax wise will be a wise move. Also, Technically speaking ANZ is in a downward trend for now. Untill uptrend is established stay clear of buying more of anz.


Fundamentally the dividend payoff of ANZ at current price of $20.00 is around 7%. It is a bargain between $15-20. Also important to note that ANZ has already put some of its profits to deal with sub-prime mess, and might be able to handle it better ( or worse no one  knows for sure...)


But from investment point of view, once this credit crunch will be over, ANZ share price will be in the vicinity of $45-50 in two to three years time. Study their expansion plans in developing countries( China/India Asia etc.) Also it is gaining more ground in Australia as well.

I donot hold ANZ.


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## tech/a (8 March 2008)

tasmanian said:


> Dutchie thats a way to take any doubts out of it.




Agree but the question remains do you buy back a bank?
Nothings a bargain.


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## tasmanian (8 March 2008)

tech/a said:


> Agree but the question remains do you buy back a bank?
> Nothings a bargain.




Good point I wouldnt be touching anyhting financial except shorting them which I am atm and wont be closing them for a while yet by the looks of it.

Cant understand people that are against shorting which I seem to read quite abit lately.People that are loosing money on there financial stocks crying "bloody hedge funds bloody shorters".

Thats obvisouly where to be making the money atm why fight it and not join it???Make money on the uptrend then make more on the downtrend.Makes perfectly good sense to me.

cheers


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## agro (8 March 2008)

my suggestion would be to stay away from the banking and financial services for the time being until the dust settles in America and switch to a solid resource company


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## wayneL (8 March 2008)

theasxgorilla said:


> Yeah only OK.  They traded at $29 in Oct/Nov 05....despite some peaks and troughs IMO the stock traded sideways for 2 years.  If you were a holder at least you'd have been getting franked dividends.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If the OPer had his/her heart set on owning this piece of doggy doodie, he/she could sell calls until there was reason to believe that a new uptrend is in place.


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## sam76 (8 March 2008)

Prospector said:


> This isn't legal - ATO will not let you sell shares to maximise the loss, then buy back in again.  There has been no time limit specified, but you would need to wait before buying again.  Someone will find the ato link for this.




There'a thread here - https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9866


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## mim168 (8 March 2008)

Thanks all for advice and comments. Still undecided. If I were to sell and not buy ANZ to declare capital loss, but also what stock to buy? $8000 is a lot to regain in the market now..really appreciate more views..I also think maybe the money would be better invested in another share. Who knows when the bank will turn the corner??


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## Joe Blow (8 March 2008)

Mim, ASF members are not allowed to advise you what stocks to buy (or sell for that matter). Only licensed financial advisors can offer you financial advice that is specific to your particular situation. ASIC is *very* clear on this.

So please, lets keep this discussion framed in very general terms.


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## mim168 (8 March 2008)

I know about that, I was just making a comment that $8000 is a lot to make when the shares are all going south . thanks


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## agro (8 March 2008)

mim168 said:


> I know about that, I was just making a comment that $8000 is a lot to make when the shares are all going south . thanks




its true the market is falling to its knees but the biggest percentage losers have come from the banking and financial services.

thats where i make my point about resource stocks as a safer alternative. Gold for example is heading towards 1000 with the likes of NCM, LGL both doing well from this, lets not forget iron ore, coal, oil, grain and other raw commodities


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## ben_ben26 (4 November 2008)

Hey Guys, couldnt find another ANZ thread so thought ill post here, I have just brought some shares in the ANZ Yesterday @$18.07 a share, brought $5000 worth = 275 shares.


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## jackson8 (4 November 2008)

ben_ben26 said:


> Hey Guys, couldnt find another ANZ thread so thought ill post here, I have just brought some shares in the ANZ Yesterday @$18.07 a share, brought $5000 worth = 275 shares.




what is it that you are actually asking


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## beamstas (5 November 2008)

ben_ben26 said:


> Hey Guys, couldnt find another ANZ thread so thought ill post here, I have just brought some shares in the ANZ Yesterday @$18.07 a share, brought $5000 worth = 275 shares.





3 days before the ex, nice
Enjoy the dividend


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## Prospector (5 November 2008)

beamstas said:


> 3 days before the ex, nice
> Enjoy the dividend



Except you can't claim the Imputation credit!


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## Julia (5 November 2008)

jackson8 said:


> what is it that you are actually asking



I was wondering the same thing.


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## beamstas (5 November 2008)

Prospector said:


> Except you can't claim the Imputation credit!




Probably isn't claiming over $5000 worth


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## cutz (7 November 2008)

I have been skimming through this thread and the subject of wash sales got me thinking. How the ATO view the following hypothetical situation, say I wrote a covered call, in the money, expecting a pullback on the underlying but unexpectedly a small rally occurs and assignment happens, because I never intended to sell the stock I buy it back.
On paper it looks like a wash sale but not in intent.

Any thoughts.

Cutz.


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## sails (7 November 2008)

cutz said:


> I have been skimming through this thread and the subject of wash sales got me thinking. How the ATO view the following hypothetical situation, say I wrote a covered call, in the money, expecting a pullback on the underlying but unexpectedly a small rally occurs and assignment happens, because I never intended to sell the stock I buy it back.
> On paper it looks like a wash sale but not in intent.
> 
> Any thoughts.
> ...




This is probably a question for your accountant or maybe even a phone call to the ATO.

Anyway, my uneducated shot at is that it most likely comes down to intent.  If one is regularly writing covered calls and it is part of the usual trading strategy, then hopefully the ATO would be OK with it.  The other thing is to have a trading strategy/plan written out which would support the fact that one is trading to make money from the sold calls.

I was trading covered calls some years ago now, however, as I have been on trader status with the ATO, capital gains were not applicable anyway - so the above is nothing more than a guess.  Hopefully someone else can help...


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