# Paying for Information and Education



## patn (24 June 2009)

Hello to all. Im a novice when it comes to trading and not sure where to start or what to look at. I have looked at some companies that will sell you a program, trading platform and access to their live trade calls for Commodities, Currency and Eminis and the returns seem great if you want to believe it. I have no problem with paying for education or information as long as it is effective. Has anyone brought from these companies, is it a good thing for the novice or should they be avoided. Thanks


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## esolano (24 June 2009)

Just looking into this as well. Anyone know a decent online subscription service that provides reliable information and with good track record?


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## prawn_86 (24 June 2009)

Think about this. If a company or someone could consistently profit from the market, why would they need to sell you their 'packages'? Most online brokers provide a news service which will show valuations of companies etc. (this doesnt mean they are correct though)

Depending on the type of investing/trading you are after, there are subscription services which give advice and insights of their opinions, but avoid paying big dollars for 'black box systems' as they are virtually always a scam.


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## Timmy (24 June 2009)

Good questions and there is plenty around the forum addressing them.

Have a browse through the Beginners Lounge, Trading/Investing Resources, Trading Strategies/Systems to start with and you will see many discussions of the various resources, both free and paid, available.

Take very careful note of what prawn has said too - avoid the scams.


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## esolano (24 June 2009)

Thanks guys. Appreciate the advice.
I'm more a part-time trader if there is such a thing.


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## patn (24 June 2009)

Thanks for the reply's. I have asked my Finance Adviser the same question, if it's all so great what are you still sitting across the table from me for. I thought these companies may be a good place to get started in trading quickly and hopefully not burn your money straight off the bat.


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## wonderrman (24 June 2009)

Don't use programs their a waste of money. Use the money to buy books and read about what great traders have done and how they did it. Keep your system simple as complexity breeds confusion. Be prepared to lose your first wad of cash, because  you probably will. Paper trade, but remember that it is a lot different when you have *real* money on the line. Save up before your first start as well, trying to trade anything less then $15K when your a beginner in a bear market is a killer as commission will eat you alive. Read these forums as there are many many pages of answers to your questions.

wonder.


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## Mr J (24 June 2009)

In my opinion, it's beneficial for a trader to figure it out for themselves. Most of these services are probably rubbish, and following others' trades is a crutch at best. Best to play around with paper money, finding something that suits you. Then apply it to real trading and refine it. I wouldn't bother listening to a financial advisor unless they had proven themselves, but in that case they would unlikely still be a financial advisor! Of course, this is just my opinion, and it may be as worthless as the typical FA or internet forum "trader" .



> Save up before your first start as well, trying to trade anything less then $15K when your a beginner in a bear market is a killer as commission will eat you alive. Read these forums as there are many many pages of answers to your questions.




No they won't. Deposit 12k at IB, remove 7k and then day trade the SPI for one contract. Or, 10k with overnight positions.


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## dutchie (24 June 2009)

Hi patn & esolano

The answer to your questions and more can be found in this forum.

You just need to search.

Cheers
dutchie


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## Krusty the Klown (24 June 2009)

The old saying is "If it seems too good to be true, it usually is....." especially anything that is advertised.


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## esolano (24 June 2009)

so i guess it all comes down to doing your own research and trusting your own instincts.


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## prawn_86 (24 June 2009)

esolano said:


> and trusting your own instincts.




Once you have a fair idea that those instincts are likely to be correct, and you have appropriate money management in place.


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## johenmo (24 June 2009)

Search for books here - I recommend Van Tharp Financial Freedom, Adaptive Analysis.  If you want to do yr own charting Louise Bedford Charting Secrets is a good start.

The answers are here in some form but not easy to find.  Be wary of spending money on a programme.

Find a mentor or someone to bounce ideas off.  If they are learning but are ahead then that can be handy as you can discuss ideas.

Look at the chartist (i subscribe) there are some free items there.  It's worth it to me for education.  HAs a free 2 week trial I believe.


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## GumbyLearner (24 June 2009)

If you are looking for consistent yields. Read The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham. Understanding the stock is the most important thing according to him.


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## Julia (24 June 2009)

Have you read the Education section of the ASX website, www.asx.com.au?
It's free, explains in clear terms how the market works and gives an introduction to shares, derivatives, technical and fundamental analysis etc.

Then if you decide you're interested in a technical approach, the book I found most useful was Stan Weinstein's "Secrets for Profiting in Bull and Bear Markets".

But do the ASX info first.


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## tech/a (25 June 2009)

prawn_86 said:


> Think about this. If a company or someone could consistently profit from the market, why would they need to sell you their 'packages'? Most online brokers provide a news service which will show valuations of companies etc. (this doesn't mean they are correct though)




This is a comment that is often seen.
I think there are reasons "Why" they NEED to sell their packages.
*(1) Its very good Business.* Many years ago I went to a Guppy seminar in Adelaide---which isn't renowned as the business mecca of Australia.It was $149/head. There were 200 jammed into this room and another 200 for the next 2 nights. Some quick maths and that's $75k in 3 nights + all the trailing goods on offer which were snapped up. Then off to Melbourne-- with bigger crowds.

*(2) Provides excellent very low risk cash flow.*
So if you really can trade what a great low risk way of gaining more capital--whether you need it or not.

*(3) Gives the educators a life*
Face to face contact with people,satisfaction in what your doing.
Profitable trading is boring--this can help arrest some of the boredom.
Personal satisfaction of building a business.


*Don't get me wrong there are people who cant build businesses Nor trade Nor Educate.*

*THEN*
There is the topic often discussed of cost of education.
If you really think about the cost of setting someone up in a serious training course,the amount of work could vary greatly.The cost could well run into the $1000/s,if your talking software and or time---say a 6 mth course.
Teasers can be $100s as seen above.

It really boils down to buyer beware.
My gauge has always been in most things---word of mouth.
If there is lots of positive feed back then that's where I'll look.
We do the same in our company and people search us out!


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## Sean K (25 June 2009)

tech/a said:


> This is a comment that is often seen.
> I think there are reasons "Why" they NEED to sell their packages.
> *(1) Its very good Business.* Many years ago I went to a Guppy seminar in Adelaide---which isn't renowned as the business mecca of Australia.It was $149/head. There were 200 jammed into this room and another 200 for the next 2 nights. Some quick maths and that's $75k in 3 nights + all the trailing goods on offer which were snapped up. Then off to Melbourne-- with bigger crowds.
> 
> ...



Tech, I think the only good reason you're presented there is (3) that it gives a trader a life outside of a computer screen. Otherwise, if their trading plan / black box / education is so good, they obviously don't need 1 and 2. 

The other reason could be that they are a genuinely altruistic beast.

However, I don't believe altruism exists. 

So, it must just be to get a life. 

As far as eduation goes, try all the low cost approaches first to get a basic knowledge before committing to big money courses.


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## tech/a (25 June 2009)

Kenna's

They dont have to *NEED* to

I dont NEED to trade but I do.
I dont NEED to work but I do.
I dont NEED to ride 30k to work then 30K back but I do.

There are lots of things we dont NEED to do
but we do them.
Why not.

On my bike!


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## Sean K (25 June 2009)

tech/a said:


> Kenna's
> 
> They dont have to *NEED* to
> 
> ...



We NEED to do everything Tech. 

I'm just coming from a different philosophical position. 

You're on your bike for a reason I guess. ie, you NEED to get on your bike. You can think up a reason.

Or, I'm a lunatic.

As usual.


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## Trembling Hand (25 June 2009)

tech/a said:


> *THEN*
> There is the topic often discussed of cost of education.




It is funny how the cost of the course has little relationship to the quality of the material thou 

But correlated to the BS in the marketing.


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## beamstas (25 June 2009)

Some people are just talented at teaching/coaching

Look at golf, afl, sports like that

Example; Sheedy, was a pretty good player but boy was he a great coach.

It takes something special to be a good trader 
If takes something special to be a good educator

Some people are gifted with both qualities, why not use them both?? I don't see why there is the mentality of "Those that can do, and those that can't teach", because some people actually can do both!


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## Sean K (25 June 2009)

beamstas said:


> Some people are gifted with both qualities, why not use them both?? I don't see why there is the mentality of "Those that can do, and those that can't teach", because some people actually can do both!



Yes, I totally agree. 

You could 'do' and 'coach' at the same time. There are still a lot of Captain-Coaches out there, and it only disappeared from VFL level a few years ago, but it has disappeared. Could we see it again? 

The disparity I'm seeing in this discussion is between traders who teach, and people who could trade who have decided to teach.

The origin of this thread seems to be about a black-box-magic-trading 30 min a day system, or like it, and the presenter is the guru who should be trading!

Or, they have people trading their system for them..

The original post was:



> Hello to all. Im a novice when it comes to trading and not sure where to start or what to look at. I have looked at some companies that will sell you a program, trading platform and access to their live trade calls for Commodities, Currency and Eminis and the returns seem great if you want to believe it. I have no problem with paying for education or information as long as it is effective. Has anyone brought from these companies, is it a good thing for the novice or should they be avoided. Thanks




Maybe we're off topic a tad.


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## tech/a (25 June 2009)

Kennas

Your right.
There is a deep seated need for everything.
Even if you dont "Need" to do it.
I need to Ride because I love it and there isnt a phone.
The missus cant catch me and no one knows where I am.

T/H.
Whats good value and from whom?
My idea/yours Kenna's and others will all look at the same thing and express a vastly different view.


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## It's Snake Pliskin (26 June 2009)

tech/a said:


> Kennas
> 
> *Your* right.
> There is a deep seated need for everything.
> ...




Tech,
It is *you're* as in *you are*......

You don't need to ride.  You CHOOSE to ride to satisfy *your* need. 

You need to ride *your* bike because the car is at the garage. And always look to your left and your right.

Kennas,

Rich people should give back to society even if they make people pay for it at times. 

I support capitalism and see nothing wrong with people educating for profit, but only if they have the capacity to do so and are not scamming.

Communism and socialism suck and bring about poverty.  

Cheers..


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## Mr J (26 June 2009)

It's Snake Pliskin said:


> Rich people should give back to society even if they make people pay for it at times.
> 
> I support capitalism and see nothing wrong with people educating for profit, but only if they have the capacity to do so and are not scamming.
> 
> Communism and socialism suck and bring about poverty.




Why should the rich give back? They owe as much to the general public as a lion does to a gazelle. I also find it interesting that you suggest the rich should give back, while criticising socialism.

Communism and socialism suck? The systems don't suck at all, the significant examples have been extremely poor implementations of these systems. They've worked fine at family and small community level for thousands of years.


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## ozbecool (26 June 2009)

I agree with all those above who say that:
- educate yourself first - there are plenty of books
- be very careful with subscribing
As for books: there are many different approaches to trading (speculative, trend followers, value investors, chartists and the mixes of those). You have to find out first what is your own psychological profile, how much time you are prepared to spend, what is your time frame (short, medium or long term), your risk tolerance, why you want those 'yet to be earned' profits from trades, can you wait when trend goes against you, etc etc - a lot of things to consider BEFORE you start trading - this is why I think you should get a few books, read them and then you would know that you are past the point that 90% people who buy/sell shares don't actually do. When YOU read books and then pick stocks for BUY it is your decision, otherwise you just follow somebody else and often you might not know WHY are you buying a particular stock

I personally thing that a good starting point are (there are many good books, but for beginners - do not start reading too complex material):
- "EXPLODING THE MYTHS - What your broker doesn't know or won't tell you" by Frank Watkins (2003 and 2008 editions), ~ $AUD 35
- "INVESTORS GUIDE to selecting shares that perform", by R.Koch, rev 4, 2007
- "The Australian Stockmarket: A Guide for Players, Planners ...", by R.Bennetts, 8th ed, 2006, I think ~ $AUD 20
NOTE:  may be there are newer editions, I do not know 

Subscriptions might be good but only do that if other people (whom you trust) tell you that it worked for them. Otherwise do not pay any money for those $1k+ per year sites (There is one that I know - they want ~ $5.4k per 3 years; what they say sounds OK (eg. money back guarantee) but the problem is that nobody I know heard about them and I was not able to find any FEEDBACK on the internet.

There are services like eg. RIV..N REPORTS that are purely advice based (SELL/BUY recommendations; cost around $600-$800 / yr), but I tried them some time ago and their performance was not better than my picks. But services like that might be helpful as the FIRST SIEVE of what you might CONSIDER to buy.


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## beamstas (26 June 2009)

kennas said:


> Yes, I totally agree.
> 
> You could 'do' and 'coach' at the same time. There are still a lot of Captain-Coaches out there, and it only disappeared from VFL level a few years ago, but it has disappeared. Could we see it again?




I'd sure like to
The likes of Buckley, would have been a great player/coach.

His speech to those Vic Country kids at half time was bloody amazing, he sure knows the game and imo he could have led collingwood quite well.

Lets see if he ends up at the roos.


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## ozbecool (26 June 2009)

*Paying for Information and Education - mistakes*

May be this would be a valuable lesson for some ...
~ 12 years ago I entered Australian sharemarket as a novice and I paid dearly for my 'naked' approach : I DID NOT EDUCATE myself at all. All I saw was the price of the stock. I read a little bit about the company, invested way too much money in ONE company (I diversified but not deep enough) and ... that company ... did not go bust, but now is worth ~ 15% of my initial investment 12 years ago !!! So I made MOST of the beginners mistakes at the same time - you might say that the way I entered the market destined me for a failure. 

But the ROOT of my mistakes was that I did not read at least a few books (to get different perspectives) that would explain basic available strategies and most common 'traders' mistakes. 

Now 12 years later and some books read (~ five cover to cover and a few more focused on particular issues) : I trade with profit - I do not use any subscription and this way I invest those 'yet to be subscription fee' money in stocks and multiply them - slowly at times but multiply. I do not use any sophisticated program - I just found the mix of approaches (from literature) that suits me and I follow them RIGOROUSLY. Of course strategy keeps evolving - new information from the net articles and books helps to improve the system that I use.


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## tech/a (26 June 2009)

*Re: Paying for Information and Education - mistakes*



ozbecool said:


> May be this would be a valuable lesson for some ...
> ~ 12 years ago I entered Australian sharemarket as a novice and I paid dearly for my 'naked' approach : I DID NOT EDUCATE myself at all. All I saw was the price of the stock. I read a little bit about the company, invested way too much money in ONE company (I diversified but not deep enough) and ... that company ... did not go bust, but now is worth ~ 15% of my initial investment 12 years ago !!! So I made MOST of the beginners mistakes at the same time - you might say that the way I entered the market destined me for a failure.




Holding your loss destined you to failure.



> But the ROOT of my mistakes was that I did not read at least a few books (to get different perspectives) that would explain basic available strategies and most common 'traders' mistakes.





No the root of your mistake was holding your loss.


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## ozbecool (26 June 2009)

*Re: Paying for Information and Education - mistakes*



tech/a said:


> Holding your loss destined you to failure.
> 
> 
> 
> No the root of your mistake was holding your loss.





_No : the root was the lack of education, holding to the stock was the consequence of the original mistake_


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## tech/a (26 June 2009)

*Re: Paying for Information and Education - mistakes*



ozbecool said:


> _No : the root was the lack of education, holding to the stock was the consequence of the original mistake_




Oh
Education taught you??

I'll guess.
Not to hold your losses!


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## motorway (26 June 2009)

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

Do I want medical treatment that matches my Psyche ?
done by someone how ever unqualified !!

Do I need to only traverse  bridges engineered the same ?

Do I want to fly in a plane that feels good ?..

The last thing anyone needs is something to match their
Psycholgical profile..  The sick would get sicker

What they need is something THAT WORKS

THAT IS REAL...


What works WORKS
Everything else is feel good illusion...

motorway


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## McGoldrick (26 June 2009)

I have been day trading shares for about 18 months now and after a shakey
start I am now doing OK. I find it easier to be profitable in todays markets than when it was bull, bull, bull.  I want to trade options. Can any one recommend a
good beginners book. 
                                   McGold


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## It's Snake Pliskin (27 June 2009)

Mr J said:


> I also find it interesting that you suggest the rich should give back, while criticising socialism.



Thank you.


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## Timmy (27 June 2009)

McGoldrick said:


> I have been day trading shares for about 18 months now and after a shakey
> start I am now doing OK. I find it easier to be profitable in todays markets than when it was bull, bull, bull.  I want to trade options. Can any one recommend a
> good beginners book.
> McGold




McG - have a look around this forum here for the threads about options from WayneL and Sails.  This should get you started really well and you should be able to find good reference to option texts in them.


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## Timmy (27 June 2009)

motorway said:


> Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
> 
> Do I want medical treatment that matches my Psyche ?
> done by someone how ever unqualified !!
> ...




I think I might get this chiselled into my wall, fantastic.


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## wayneL (27 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> It is funny how the cost of the course has little relationship to the quality of the material thou
> 
> But correlated to the BS in the marketing.



Hahahahah!

Sooooooooooo true!

I would add that people "almost" deserve it. Tell them the truth about trading and they don't want to know at any price. Tell them something completely unrealistic like the secret to making a million dollars by 3:00PM and they'll flock to you and pay thousands. 



It's Snake Pliskin said:


> T
> Communism and socialism suck and bring about poverty.
> 
> Cheers..




Yes indeed.



Mr J said:


> Communism and socialism suck? The systems don't suck at all, the significant examples have been extremely poor implementations of these systems. They've worked fine at family and small community level for thousands of years.




That's because you can get away with absolute authoritarianism in family groups and small communities. A modern liberal democratic nation is entirely another matter. 



motorway said:


> Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
> 
> Do I want medical treatment that matches my Psyche ?
> done by someone how ever unqualified !!
> ...




That's true, but there several approaches that work and several timeframes that people trade in. A persons's psychology will dictate which approach they gravitate to.


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## tech/a (27 June 2009)

McGoldrick said:


> I have been day trading shares for about 18 months now and after a shakey
> start I am now doing OK. I find it easier to be profitable in todays markets than when it was bull, bull, bull.  I want to trade options. Can any one recommend a
> good beginners book.
> McGold




The New Options Advantage 
Caplan
ISBN1-55738-863-6



wayneL said:


> Hahahahah!
> 
> Sooooooooooo true!
> 
> I would add that people "almost" deserve it. Tell them the truth about trading and they don't want to know at any price. Tell them something completely unrealistic like the secret to making a million dollars by 3:00PM and they'll flock to you and pay thousands.




You dont have that venue address do you?




> That's true, but there several approaches that work and several timeframes that people trade in. A persons's psychology will dictate which approach they gravitate to.




Surely the Market *should* dictate approach/timeframe!


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## Mr J (27 June 2009)

wayneL said:


> Hahahahah!
> That's because you can get away with absolute authoritarianism in family groups and small communities. A modern liberal democratic nation is entirely another matter.




There's nothing that says a communist or socialist system can't be modern, liberal and democratic. Communism and socialism are both meant to promote an egalitarian society, not to install a dictator and ruling class. What would a proper socialist system look like? Take the wealth of society and distribute it evenly ('evenly' can be defined multiple ways - it's not necessarily an equal share).


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## wayneL (27 June 2009)

Mr J said:


> There's nothing that says a communist or socialist system can't be modern, liberal and democratic. Communism and socialism are both meant to promote an egalitarian society, not to install a dictator and ruling class. What would a proper socialist system look like? Take the wealth of society and distribute it evenly ('evenly' can be defined multiple ways - it's not necessarily an equal share).



It all sounds nice until the realization that redistribution of wealth involves taking money earned by one person and giving it to another who hasn't, all under threat of violence and/or incarceration.


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## wayneL (27 June 2009)

tech/a said:


> Surely the Market *should* dictate approach/timeframe!




What I mean is that some people are into day trading, some into longer term trend trading, some into market neutral strategies.

All can work well. A persons psychology probably means they might be better at one of these than the others.

eg daytrading - some can't make it work, others spectacularly successful. What's the difference?

It has to be an individuals emotional attributes and challenges.


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## Trembling Hand (27 June 2009)

McGoldrick said:


> I have been day trading shares for about 18 months now and after a shakey
> start I am now doing OK. I want to trade options. Can any one recommend a
> good beginners book.



 I don't see how day trading options is possible on the ASX. Spreads way to big. Movements way to small. Transactions way to few.

Why are you looking at oppies if day trading  look at CFDs, Futs or FX for leverage.


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## wayneL (27 June 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> I don't see how day trading options is possible on the ASX. Spreads way to big. Movements way to small. Transactions way to few.




That's very true. But it doesn't stop one particular clown flogging a course for *~$20,000* that reckons you can. 

I won't publicize him by providing a link


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## Frank D (27 June 2009)

wayneL said:


> All can work well. A persons psychology probably means they might be better at one of these than the others.
> 
> eg daytrading - some can't make it work, others spectacularly successful. What's the difference?
> 
> It has to be an individuals emotional attributes and challenges.




I totally agree, and more so with a persons own limitiations.

Limitations can be; psychology, no proven method, or a number of 
reasons that could simply be based on a person's screen time.

If someone works during the day then they won’t have the luxury to
 trade minor intra-day indictors during the day, so they would focus on
 higher timeframes.

I trade US markets, but I don’t sit in front of the screen trading it. Most 
of my trades are limit entries, but I still focus on day trades or hold
 positions into the next.

This has nothing to do with the market, it has to do with my own
 limitations, which is my current timezone and love of sleep.

*However, the market (Trend/support/resistance) does often provide the 
set-ups which can dictate and should dictate a person's approach...*

Which in my case is heavily influenced by the movement of Price within Timeframes (Trends/Support/ & resistance) Entry-HOLD or FOLD.


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## Mr J (27 June 2009)

WayneL said:
			
		

> It all sounds nice until the realization that redistribution of wealth involves taking money earned by one person and giving it to another who hasn't, all under threat of violence and/or incarceration.




Of course. It's a tough shift to make, which is why it must be forceful or extremely gradual. Those who have wealth and power naturally do not want to give it up. It's a problem in any system.


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## wayneL (27 June 2009)

Mr J said:


> Of course. It's a tough shift to make, which is why it must be forceful or extremely gradual. Those who have wealth and power naturally do not want to give it up. It's a problem in any system.




Which leads to the Achilles Heal of Socialism - Why would the producers be productive only to have the results taken from them.

The producers either leave or become less productive. The non productive, while being the recipients of this "largesse" have no motivation to become producers. The economy as a whole produces less and less, increasing and crystallizing poverty.

But we are getting off topic here. If you want to continue this line of discussion, we should open a new thread.


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## motorway (27 June 2009)

> From each according to his ability, to each according to his need




Do you want to be a slave or a free person ?

This is how a slave owner treats his slaves

He determines ability and need

and a whip to make it so...

Capitalism is the same..
Only it is as Free People that each can decide
ability and need.... And trade with these with like minded other  free people.

The minute Someone decides for you = Tyranny and slavery.

Can you hear the southern Slave owners on those cotton plantations

Justifying the STATUS QUO  becaue they knew best , and what was need and ability.

Anyone asks you to sacrifice for the greater good----RUN
esp if they hold a whip...

motorway


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## ozbecool (13 July 2009)

wayneL said:


> It all sounds nice until the realization that redistribution of wealth involves taking money earned by one person and giving it to another who hasn't, all under threat of violence and/or incarceration.




Hey guys - please keep your posts to the topic "Paying for Information and Education". All this socialism etc stuff does not belong to this threat


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## Timmy (13 July 2009)

And pink writing does?


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## Tradesurfer (15 July 2009)

As others have said, read some books first. Jack Schwager's Market Wizards Series. John Murphy's technical analysis of the financial markets etc etc

Beware of any service that claims 40,000% returns and the like.

Ask for free trials. While I do coaching myself I have no problem with people doing a free session to see what its all about. Those with nothing to hide shouldn't either.

Now do understand that individuals have spent money and effort in producing materials and they do have value, but as was said in another post, beware of the "middle aged people having the time of their life trading in front of a computer commercials" which I thought was pretty funny.

But seriously, getting some education on your own will help you understand what you need to work on and subsequently what you might want to pay for.

Good luck as its a great endeavor to undertake and your going to experience a steep learning curve which is great!!

cheers

Derek


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