# Trump Derangement Syndrome



## wayneL (19 July 2018)

Looking forward to the confirming ripostes from the so deranged 



> Trump Derangement Syndrome
> Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) is a mental condition in which a person has been driven effectively insane due to their dislike of Donald Trump, to the point at which they will abandon all logic and reason.
> 
> Symptoms for this condition can be very diverse, ranging from hysterical outbursts to a complete mental break. TDS can also often result in the sufferer exhibiting violent, homicidal, or even genocidal desires.
> ...


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## Gringotts Bank (19 July 2018)

exacerbate to the point of exasperation maybe.


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## Darc Knight (19 July 2018)

One of the sad traits of our society is that someone can be thoroughly dishonest and predatorial, but if they spin and market themselves well a lot of that despicable past is forgotten and we embrace this person. This isn't good as it doesn't discourage people from being sociopathic, but may encourage the bad behaviour. To the informed, Trump is a person with a disgusting past who certainly should not be idolised. A lot of sad facts about Donald from those closest to him


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## PZ99 (19 July 2018)

LOL! Whoever wrote that article is obviously suffering a Derangement Syndrome themselves.

Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Look at the alternatives:


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## Darc Knight (19 July 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> DK, I can't watch the whole video.  What's so bad about him that's different to any other president?




Made a habit of not paying Contractors. Made a habit of breaking Laws in building his Empire. Make a habit of being a pathological Liar. Raped his ex Wife Ivana. Pretty much a sociopath. All backed up in the video by testimony and evidence.


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## basilio (19 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Made a habit of not paying Contractors. Made a habit of breaking Laws in building his Empire. Make a habit of being a pathological Liar. Raped his ex Wife Ivana. Pretty much a sociopath. All backed up in the video by testimony and evidence.




And this sociopath is President of the most powerful country on earth.


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## SirRumpole (19 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Made a habit of not paying Contractors. Made a habit of breaking Laws in building his Empire. Make a habit of being a pathological Liar. Raped his ex Wife Ivana. Pretty much a sociopath. All backed up in the video by testimony and evidence.




Won't release his tax returns which indicates a likelihood of criminal activity.


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## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2018)

wayneL said:


> Looking forward to the confirming ripostes from the so deranged




It has been said, and I am unable to find the quote from the 1920's that the USA is in it's temper, go-get attitude and lack of traditional diplomacy "Trump".

With all his warts and foibles. 

The Liberal Establishment in the US need to man up and accept the will of the people. Trump is a personification of America.

I detest snowflakes and paid apparatchiks of the Clinton Gang. 

gg


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## Darc Knight (19 July 2018)

Clive Palmer and Alan Bond have got less "form" than Donald Trump.
You'd want either of them to be PM?


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## wayneL (19 July 2018)

And yet,  the deranged would have embraced Hillary. A person with a fair list of "form".


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## bellenuit (19 July 2018)

wayneL said:


> And yet,  the deranged would have embraced Hillary. A person with a fair list of "form".




Allegations from right wing shock jocks and Fox News is not "form". She is no saint, but most of the allegations are unfounded or have already been investigated and found unproven or just minor misdemeanours.

Additionally, no matter how bad Clinton was or is, it does not change the fact that Trump is ignorant, a compulsive liar, morally bankrupt and willing to throw everyone and everything (including democracy itself) out the window to protect his own skin.


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## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2018)

Hillary and Bill have got huge form.

I met Bill as a student back in 72 and found him magnetic which made me wary.

I never met Hillary.

I would agree with wayneL.

Too much power.

Too much hubris. 

Too many cotton socked idiots following them.

gg


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## wayneL (19 July 2018)

Oh I see. That's really a interesting skew Bella 

Democracy itself?  How so?

And do you remember the DNC? I'll betcha Bernie does.


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## bellenuit (19 July 2018)

wayneL said:


> Democracy itself?  How so?




Russian agents have been indicted for trying to influence the last election and are reported (by the FBI) to be continuing their attacks on US democratic institutions. Trump, who is in a position to take action to punish those responsible, ignores those threats and is doing his best to undermine those agencies who are trying to investigate and prevent those actions. This is primarily to protect his own skin, because he is fully aware that the more that is uncovered about Russian involvement, the closer he and his cronies are to being seen as possibly complicit in the Russian actions or at best just compromised by whatever Russia holds over them.


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## wayneL (19 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Russian agents have been indicted for trying to influence the last election and are reported (by the FBI) to be continuing their attacks on US democratic institutions. Trump, who is in a position to take action to punish those responsible, ignores those threats and is doing his best to undermine those agencies who are trying to investigate and prevent those actions. This is primarily to protect his own skin, because he is fully aware that the more that is uncovered about Russian involvement, the closer he and his cronies are to being seen as possibly complicit in the Russian actions or at best just compromised by whatever Russia holds over them.



And whose version of reality is that?


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## bellenuit (19 July 2018)

wayneL said:


> And whose version of reality is that?




Certainly not that of those who after having more than a year to assess Trump would conclude that he is one smart cookie.


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## basilio (19 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Certainly not that of those who after having more than a year to assess Trump would conclude that he is one smart cookie.




Can I double like that ?


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## wayneL (19 July 2018)

basilio said:


> Can I double like that ?



Anything is possible in the TDS echo chamber bas


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## Tisme (20 July 2018)

Be interesting to see how many of the Trump knockers would come out intellectual and persuasive victors if locked in a room with him one one.... pretty sure most would weazel their way out of the opportunity.


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## PZ99 (20 July 2018)

I'll take him on anytime. I have the unfair advantage of distinguishing a spade from a joker


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## Darc Knight (20 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Be interesting to see how many of the Trump knockers would come out intellectual and persuasive victors if locked in a room with him one one.... pretty sure most would weazel their way out of the opportunity.




Correct! I would run a Mile. I've always said that. Trump is a highly intelligent predator who has fine tuned his Sociopathy to the point a lot of people who aren't aware of his past or the evolution of sucessful sociopaths can't see him for who he really is. He would make minced meat of most people as most successful sociopaths do. He is an apex predator.


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## wayneL (20 July 2018)




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## bellenuit (20 July 2018)

wayneL said:


>





It is only now that they have definitive proof. Proof, by the way, that was obtained while Trump and many in the GOP went out of their way to be as obstructionist as possible to the investigation, even to the extent of requesting the outing of sources.

But now that they have this proof, what does Trump do?  Blame the law enforcement agencies while he kisses Putin's derriere.


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## wayneL (20 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> It is only now that they have definitive proof. Proof, by the way, that was obtained while Trump and many in the GOP went out of their way to be as obstructionist as possible to the investigation, even to the extent of requesting the outing of sources.
> 
> But now that they have this proof, what does Trump do?  Blame the law enforcement agencies while he kisses Putin's derriere.



Can you cite this proof please


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## moXJO (20 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> It is only now that they have definitive proof. Proof, by the way, that was obtained while Trump and many in the GOP went out of their way to be as obstructionist as possible to the investigation, even to the extent of requesting the outing of sources.
> 
> But now that they have this proof, what does Trump do?  Blame the law enforcement agencies while he kisses Putin's derriere.



What proof?


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## TikoMike (20 July 2018)

Something fun for you all. Google "idiot" and click on the images tab. Not saying I agree with it though.


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## SirRumpole (20 July 2018)

TikoMike said:


> Something fun for you all. Google "idiot" and click on the images tab. Not saying I agree with it though.




He's quite prevalent isn't he ?


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## luutzu (20 July 2018)

wayneL said:


>





I think they're playing the "who's the Manchurian Candidate" angle rather than who's the guys and gals in charge one.

Funny the US is getting all upset and outraged when others interfere in elections. I guess it's bad when they do it. 

I mean, it's not a good thing, obviously... only rich American donors get to screw around with elections. But yea, Mick Dundee would shake his head over this one - you call that rigging elections and overthrowing a "legitimate" president? prfff... 

I heard from Paul Jay, US independent news guy, that the US under JFK rigged the Canadian election. Kicked out its PM because the peacenik doesn't want US nuclear weapons on Canadian soil. 

I was half listening but cheese man, JFK actually sent over advisors, fund the opposition party, invite them to the White House for photo ops with Nobel Prize winners etc.


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## bellenuit (20 July 2018)

wayneL said:


> Can you cite this proof please




Really. You aren't aware of the indictments last week. Or is it that you think that they must disclose their evidence to the public before you would believe it, something that the Russians would dearly like them to do as it will make them aware of US intelligence capabilities and their own deficiencies.


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## moXJO (20 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Really. You aren't aware of the indictments last week. Or is it that you think that they must disclose their evidence to the public before you would believe it, something that the Russians would dearly like them to do as it will make them aware of US intelligence capabilities and their own deficiencies.



Check your facts


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## IFocus (20 July 2018)

Nice to see others using the method of when you don't like the facts call it fake news or insinuate people who state the obvious of derangement.


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## notting (21 July 2018)

He seems to have a kind coherent strength then he gets kind lost in this birds nest of us against everybody.
Then gathers it back again, then it's back to ranting all over the place.
It's like he has different unresolved themes in his head that interfere with the main one. Yet he just keeps barging forward with this rather overwhelming confidence despite all the road kill in his wake.
It's really rather entertaining as he pulls the pants down of all the world leaders as he goes, then says how great his relationship really is with them.
Messy.


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## notting (21 July 2018)

It's clear these are just the kind of words that a 'very stable genius' would utter.
Gives you a sense of stability, confidence and you know that feeling of, 'it's all ok where in good hands.'







Of course this was just after he criticized the FED for raising rates
Surely it's not too hard to imagine what happens if he can't beat the house, before the debts are called in.
It's not like China can just stop buying treasuries and start selling them, is it?
It's not as if PUTIN HAS ALREADY DONE THAT!!

Markets are up however, i'm not sure if complacency is the right word any more.  It's more like the guy who's supposed to be pushing the sell button has died at his desk and nobody has noticed YET.
Oh look Lloyd Blankfein has taken this moment to resign.


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## luutzu (21 July 2018)

notting said:


> He seems to have a kind coherent strength then he gets kind lost in this birds nest of us against everybody.
> Then gathers it back again, then it's back to ranting all over the place.
> It's like he has different unresolved themes in his head that interfere with the main one. Yet he just keeps barging forward with this rather overwhelming confidence despite all the road kill in his wake.
> It's really rather entertaining as he pulls the pants down of all the world leaders as he goes, then says how great his relationship really is with them.
> Messy.




Reality is what you make of it my friend. 

Apparently all the EU leaders likes him,a lot. They all thank him after their meeting. 

One thing I like about Trump, and who knows why he does it.. maybe Putin has a few tapes and receipts... but Trump want to not make war with Russia.

Two countries having some 90% of the world's nukes... best that neither talk tough or push their military right up someone else's borders. Accidents can happen.


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## notting (21 July 2018)

Who needs nukes when you have a setup like that?!
There is only one correct answer to this question......
I always found it a little telling when Chaney and Rumsfeld repeated during the tenser moments, 'don't worry about the debt.' When questioned about the costs of going into Iraq!!!!

Meanwhile life goes on back at the Mansion - 







> *Trump ex-lawyer Michael Cohen secretly recorded Trump talking about payoff to Playboy model*


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## luutzu (21 July 2018)

notting said:


> Who needs nukes when you have a setup like that?!
> There is only one correct answer to this question......
> I always found it a little telling when Chaney and Rumsfeld repeated during the tenser moments, 'don't worry about the debt.' When questioned about the costs of going into Iraq!!!!




When it's some one else's kids that does the dying and fighting while you and your friends makes the profit... why let a few trillion dollars and a couple million lives stand in the way of all that freedom?


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## notting (21 July 2018)

The way it's going I think it's going to by quite a bit more than a few million.
Then there will be the 70 years of famines.


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## bellenuit (21 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> Check your facts




Now listen carefully to the first 20 seconds of this:


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## Darc Knight (21 July 2018)

^^^Watch the difference in body language of Trump and Putin from rhe 1.20 - 1.25 minute mark. Putin is like a kid in a candy store while Trump looks totally defeated. Why???


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## moXJO (21 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> It is only now that they have definitive proof. Proof, by the way, that was obtained while Trump and many in the GOP went out of their way to be as obstructionist as possible to the investigation, even to the extent of requesting the outing of sources.



What proof?


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## moXJO (21 July 2018)

IFocus said:


> Nice to see others using the method of when you don't like the facts call it fake news or insinuate people who state the obvious of derangement.



No post facts when accusing someone. Its that easy. 
If trump has been solidly linked then post it up. It may come down the track,  but right now we do not have proof.


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## IFocus (21 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> No post facts when accusing someone. Its that easy.
> If trump has been solidly linked then post it up. It may come down the track,  but right now we do not have proof.




Mo what is fact "would or wouldn't"?

Every time the criminal opens his mouth he lies that is a fact.

Defending that is derangement (in a nice way  )


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## wayneL (21 July 2018)

This thread really proves my thesis


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## Darc Knight (21 July 2018)

wayneL said:


> This thread really proves my thesis




What's your thesis? We should support Trump as an ally, but we should also be wary due to his past/nature.


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## moXJO (21 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> What's your thesis? We should support Trump as an ally, but we should also be wary due to his past/nature.



You don't fuel lies. Him being a sht person is one thing. But Russian collusion has not been proven. And the indictments had no bearing on trump as to now.


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## moXJO (21 July 2018)

IFocus said:


> Mo what is fact "would or wouldn't"?
> 
> Every time the criminal opens his mouth he lies that is a fact.
> 
> Defending that is derangement (in a nice way  )



I'm not defending him. I'm defending his right to not be smeared on made up evidence. There is a huge media bias against him and they are pushing half truths as facts. This fuels twitter/social media and those too lazy to investigate further. Then lies become "fact".


And I'm aware its not just the left.


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## Darc Knight (21 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> You don't fuel lies. Him being a sht person is one thing. But Russian collusion has not been proven. And the indictments had no bearing on trump as to now.




Wasn't there an email from Donald Jnr to "the Russians" feeling out a possible meeting, prior to the Election? Doesn't the FBI or someone have proof of data transfer between Trump Tower and The Kremlin prior to the Election?


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## luutzu (21 July 2018)

notting said:


> The way it's going I think it's going to by quite a bit more than a few million.
> Then there will be the 70 years of famines.




Unfortunately I think you're right there. Last estimates a few years ago put 2 million Iraqi dead from the war. Don't think they counted those dead due to failed infrastructure, contamination from weapons, terrorist blowbacks... famine. 

Heard that oil counts for 99% of Iraq's economy. But it only employs 1% of the population. 

Those who survive can now vote though. So it's all good.


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## bellenuit (21 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> _What proof?_




Actually Mo, you have lost the thread I think. You and Wayne had been asking for proof that Russia had interfered in the elections, because I had claimed that by taking no action and in fact trying his best to impeded the investigations he was damaging democracy.

_It is only now that they have definitive proof. Proof, by the way, that was obtained while Trump and many in the GOP went out of their way to be as obstructionist as possible to the investigation, even to the extent of requesting the outing of sources.

But now that they have this proof, what does Trump do? Blame the law enforcement agencies while he kisses Putin's derriere.
_
Your response to that post of mine was:_ What proof?_

So when I pointed to the indictments of Russian agents, you continued to demand proof, but now you are saying that the proof should be of Trump's collusion, something that has not yet been put on the table by Mueller and something that I did not say.

With regards to Russian involvement, the last video I posted has even Trump admitting Russian involvement, though very reluctantly.


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## moXJO (21 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Actually Mo, you have lost the thread I think. You and Wayne had been asking for proof that Russia had interfered in the elections, because I had claimed that by taking no action and in fact trying his best to impeded the investigations he was damaging democracy.
> 
> _It is only now that they have definitive proof. Proof, by the way, that was obtained while Trump and many in the GOP went out of their way to be as obstructionist as possible to the investigation, even to the extent of requesting the outing of sources.
> 
> ...



Apologies my mistake.


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## wayneL (21 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> What's your thesis? We should support Trump as an ally, but we should also be wary due to his past/nature.




Okay, look,  Trump is a bit of a dick.  I'm on record as saying this is America's  Berlusconi moment.  Lord knows that he had made mistakes and brings a completely different style to the Presidency .

But... He is no idiot and IMO probably had the the interests of the USA closer to his heart than the last presidency. 

My thesis ( in common with many others)  is that the categorisation of him by the left,  the hatred,  the smear... is psychopathological and way beyond the truth of the matter.  The left is doing far more damage,  is far more divisive, and closer to being genuinely treasonous than Trump will ever be. 

Wish I had more time to expand on that,  but plenty have done that already... if you look.


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## notting (21 July 2018)

I don't think there was any collusion and I believe Trump genuinely wants America to win, get better deals, not be fuc&ed by China 24hrs a day.
There is also no doubt that Putin put Trump in regardless.

People give themselves away in odd moments especially when stakes are high.  Like when Trump talked about  the Syrian babies being gassed, he cradled his arms and exclaimed 'babies' that was very real and shows he cares and isn't a psychopath. 
You'll never see the Chinese or Putin do that!

Also when Trump is sitting in some of his cabinet meetings he sits in a body language posture of 'self nurture' - he's 'hugging himself.'
Trump is in a lot of emotional pain. A LOT!!!


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## CanOz (21 July 2018)

Oh FFS GB, release notting!


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## notting (21 July 2018)

Watch from 2:15


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## luutzu (21 July 2018)

notting said:


> Watch from 2:15





Seems that if you're a bad guy doing murderous things, committing war crimes... it's bad if you're not on the friend list. If you're on the list, you're not so bad. 

Takes Saudi Arabia/UAE on Yemen. Bombing the crap out of the poorest country in the Middle East. Causing the world's largest outbreak of cholera, most of the population into a literal famine... 

Guess who supplies to weapons, the intel, the mid-air refuelling, the target selection?  

Or Israel... the "only democracy" in the Middle East just made it official to be an Apartheid state. They're literally codifying into law that the Jews is the master race in Israel. And just started bombing "hamas" in Gaza because, well, people should learn to keep quiet about being slowly poisoned to death in concentration camps. 

So yea, there are "worthy victims" and then there are terrorists, second class collateral damage. 

Nikki Haley is a two face lying psycho. She's so far up the establishment's azz she's either dazed and confused, or just plain bs'ting about how "outrageous" it is for the UN to dare report that half of her own country and its children are living in poverty. 

I obviously don't know what it's like, but it seem that when a person is up high enough on that power list, being surrounded by lines of brown nosing aids, the lobbyists, the bubbles, the personal stupidity and self-importance... they all turned into high functioning sociopath.


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## notting (21 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> I obviously don't know what it's like, but it seem that when a person is up high enough on that power list, being surrounded by lines of brown nosing aids, the lobbyists, the bubbles, the personal stupidity and self-importance... they all turned into high functioning sociopath.




It's the opposite when it comes the the US.  They come out emasculated. Nixen, Carter, Bush, Trump.
If you compare Trumps campaign posture and tone compaired to his current efforts the difference is palpable.  He's a shell of what he was!
All the huff and bluster has turned into a kind of confused miserable lost human being going through the motions!


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## IFocus (21 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> I'm not defending him. I'm defending his right to not be smeared on made up evidence. There is a huge media bias against him and they are pushing half truths as facts. This fuels twitter/social media and those too lazy to investigate further. Then lies become "fact".
> 
> 
> And I'm aware its not just the left.




To be fair Trump has attacked aggressively often in a derogatory manner any thing and anyone who has the temerity to point out any of his failings/untruths/alternative facts  or his immoral positions.

His attacks on the 4 estate is extreme by US standards none of which I would rate left wing.


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## moXJO (22 July 2018)

IFocus said:


> To be fair Trump has attacked aggressively often in a derogatory manner any thing and anyone who has the temerity to point out any of his failings/untruths/alternative facts  or his immoral positions.
> 
> His attacks on the 4 estate is extreme by US standards none of which I would rate left wing.



Its the divide in the population between left and right that will ruin it for years.

The left went spastic on G W bush in similar fashion.



He was the worst president, a nazi,  worse then hitler,  blah blah blah.
The world was ending according to the left and media.
Similar pattern on trump.


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## Country Lad (22 July 2018)

notting said:


> Also when Trump is sitting in some of his cabinet meetings he sits in a body language posture of 'self nurture' - he's 'hugging himself.'
> Trump is in a lot of emotional pain. A LOT!!!




I think you misinterpret the body language, this is commonly his position in face to face meetings, especially in cabinet meetings:

*Standard Arm-Cross Gesture*
Both arms are folded together across the chest as an attempt to ‘hide’ from an unfavourable situation. There are many arm-folding positions, but this book will discuss the three most common ones. The standard arm-cross gesture (Figure 70) is a universal gesture signifying the same defensive or negative attitude almost everywhere.


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## Logique (22 July 2018)

Trump is not a perfect human being, he has his flaws like anyone.

But at least he isn't Hillary. Or Bill. And that's what American voters thought too.  

The Democrats thought Hillary was going to win, they still haven't gotten over it.


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## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

notting said:


> Peoplegive themselves away in odd moments especially when stakes are high.  Like when Trump talked about  the Syrian babies being gassed, he cradled his arms and exclaimed 'babies' that was very real and shows he cares and isn't a psychopath.
> Also when Trump is sitting in some of his cabinet meetings he sits in a body language posture of 'self nurture' - he's 'hugging himself.'
> Trump is in a lot of emotional pain. A LOT!!!
> 
> View attachment 88477




I've pondered your post most of the Weekend. I wanted you to post a vid of the "arm craddle" while saying "babies" but the vid you posted doesn't show it. Even if it did, some people are experts at deceiving and manipulating, especially during a scripted speech like the one you describe. Look at Trump's ability to constantly lie without conscience, again and again. The line up of people prepared to speak out about his unethical and criminal activities in Business, even though Trump sues or threatens to at the drop of a hat. The Art of the Deal, the book Trump claims he wrote yet the co-author now admits Trump wrote nothing. The list is huge.


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## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

*FBI documents show Trump campaign aide Carter Page was 'collaborating' with Russia*

*http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-...carter-page-collaborated-with-russia/10023146*


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## cynic (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> *FBI documents show Trump campaign aide Carter Page was 'collaborating' with Russia*
> 
> *http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-...carter-page-collaborated-with-russia/10023146*



It may seem like hairsplitting, but the article isn't quite saying that.



> The documents released said "the FBI *believes* that the Russian Government's efforts are being *coordinated* with Page and perhaps other individuals associated with" Mr Trump's campaign.



(My bolds.)

There exists a significant distinction between "believe" and "show".


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## moXJO (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> *FBI documents show Trump campaign aide Carter Page was 'collaborating' with Russia*
> 
> *http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-...carter-page-collaborated-with-russia/10023146*




The documents show that in 2016 the FBI *believed* Mr Page was 'conspiring' with Russia
Democrat head Nancy Pelosi said the documents provide clear evidence of Russian coordination with a high-ranking Trump campaign official

Anyone have a link to the documents. "Believed" and "Proof" are poles apart. Just like WMD and Iraq.
Probabilities lean towards something going on.


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## Gringotts Bank (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Look at Trump's ability to constantly lie without conscience, again and again.




If you reckon all politicians aren't exactly the same, you're dreamin'.  It's just that Trump is less concerned with covering things up.

To a large extent, politics requires you lie in order to protect you image and ensure your survival.  So it attracts people who are willing to do that.


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## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

Gringotts Bank said:


> If you reckon all politicians aren't exactly the same, you're dreamin'.  It's just that Trump is less concerned with covering things up.
> 
> To a large extent, politics requires you lie in order to protect you image and ensure your survival.  So it attracts people who are willing to do that.




Might want to take that in context of the whole behaviour of Trump, as my post did suggest.


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## moXJO (22 July 2018)

Heres more info from a better article then the muck on abc.



> ASPEN, Colo. — The Justice Department on Saturday released a previously classified application to wiretap former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page, who was under suspicion by the FBI of being a Russian agent.
> 
> The government had monitored Page under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and the heavily redacted documents were made public after media organizations sued for their release under the Freedom of Information Act.
> 
> ...




https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...op-table-main_carterpage-830pm:homepage/story


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## explod (22 July 2018)

"Vladimir Putin made a bombshell claim during Monday's joint press conference with President Trump in Helsinki, Finland, when the Russian President said some $400 million in illegally earned profits was funneled to the Clinton campaign by associates of American-born British financier Bill Browder - at one time the largest foreign portfolio investors in Russia. The scheme involved members of the U.S. intelligence community, said Putin, who he said "accompanied and guided these transactions."

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...-agents-funneled-400-million-clinton-campaign

Smells right to me.


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## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

explod said:


> "Vladimir Putin made a bombshell claim during Monday's joint press conference with President Trump in Helsinki, Finland, when the Russian President said some $400 million in illegally earned profits was funneled to the Clinton campaign by associates of American-born British financier Bill Browder - at one time the largest foreign portfolio investors in Russia. The scheme involved members of the U.S. intelligence community, said Putin, who he said "accompanied and guided these transactions."
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...-agents-funneled-400-million-clinton-campaign
> 
> Smells right to me.




You don't think Trump and Putin had a ''you scratch my back and I'Il scratch yours" at that press conference?

Would they, or wouldn't they or would they or wouldn't they


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## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

This thread should be called "Trump fanboy derangement syndrome".


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## explod (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> You don't think Trump and Putin had a ''you scratch my back and I'Il scratch yours" at that press conference?
> 
> Would they, or wouldn't they or would they or wouldn't they



And what's wrong with any of that.

Shaking hands and doing deals is what makes good business.


----------



## Tisme (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> You don't think Trump and Putin had a ''you scratch my back and I'Il scratch yours" at that press conference?
> 
> Would they, or wouldn't they or would they or wouldn't they




Clinton also a Benedict Arnold? People have short memories:

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/17/...al-report-bailout-kremlin-us-pressed-imf.html


----------



## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

explod said:


> And what's wrong with any of that.
> 
> Shaking hands and doing deals is what makes good business.




Doing deals to say whatever suits. You probably should retract that by saying you meant to say something else


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> This thread should be called "Trump fanboy derangement syndrome".



*FBI documents show Trump campaign aide Carter Page was 'collaborating' with Russia.*

How about "Fantastic Half Truths".


----------



## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> *FBI documents show Trump campaign aide Carter Page was 'collaborating' with Russia.*
> 
> How about "Fantastic Half Truths".




Have a further read about Carter Page's meetings with the Russians.


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Have a further read about Carter Page's meetings with the Russians.




Read the FBI docs here they have a link to the pdf.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/us/politics/carter-page-fisa.html#click=https://t.co/SdFCV6Lyvb


----------



## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> Read the FBI docs here they have a link to the pdf.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/us/politics/carter-page-fisa.html#click=https://t.co/SdFCV6Lyvb




"It added Mr Page "has established relationships with Russian Government officials, including Russian intelligence officers."

Go to other websites and it details his numerous meetings.

What about Donald Jnr, eagerly trying to meet up with the Russians for dirt on Hillary Clinton.


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2018)

Source #1 was scratched.  
Carter denied any collusion. T
he fbi got the go ahead to tap from very little. 
From what I know there are more documents to come and the fbi is making heavily reductions on those.  So is it to cover up or protect ongoing investigation?

Do they actually have anything is the million dollar question.


----------



## explod (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> "It added Mr Page "has established relationships with Russian Government officials, including Russian intelligence officers."
> 
> Go to other websites and it details his numerous meetings.
> 
> What about Donald Jnr, eagerly trying to meet up with the Russians for dirt on Hillary Clinton.



Wouldn't be hard to find substance in the Clinton camp. It's hard to say who are the bigger crooks.

Have you read J Edgar Hoover, by Curt Gentry 1991 Dark Knight


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> "It added Mr Page "has established relationships with Russian Government officials, including Russian intelligence officers."
> 
> Go to other websites and it details his numerous meetings.
> 
> What about Donald Jnr, eagerly trying to meet up with the Russians for dirt on Hillary Clinton.



They were both in the energy sector. If it were collusion they would be in prison now. 
Meeting dodgy rich Russian that have ties to the government isn't exactly rare in that sector.


----------



## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

explod said:


> Wouldn't be hard to find substance in the Clinton camp. It's hard to say who are the bigger crooks.
> 
> Have you read J Edgar Hoover, by Curt Gentry 1991 Dark Knight




Sorry, too busy dealing with the Trump fan boy derangement syndrome going on.


----------



## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> They were both in the energy sector. If it were collusion they would be in prison now.
> Meeting dodgy rich Russian that have ties to the government isn't exactly rare in that sector.




OK, can I defer to you for future U.S. intelligence briefings, you seem at odds with the FBI.


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> OK, can I defer to you for future U.S. intelligence briefings, you seem at odds with the FBI.



Pretty sure you can just actually read and comprehend what was in the report.
You can right? 

MAGA


----------



## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> Pretty sure you can just actually read and comprehend what was in the report.
> You can right?
> 
> MAGA




Yes, and the FBI concluded " Mr Page has established relationships with Russian Government officials, including Russian intelligence officers."


Not sure what your MAGA means though.


----------



## explod (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Yes, and the FBI concluded " Mr Page has established relationships with Russian Government officials, including Russian intelligence officers."
> 
> 
> Not sure what your MAGA means though.



The FBI is a tool for the financial elite.

A bit wet behind the ears DK.


----------



## cynic (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Yes, and the FBI concluded " Mr Page has established relationships with Russian Government officials, including Russian intelligence officers."
> 
> 
> Not sure what your MAGA means though.



Surely international intergovernmental liaisons, are part and parcel of many roles at his level, aren't they?!!

It sounds like the FBI might be simply accusing him of doing his job!!


----------



## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

explod said:


> The FBI is a tool for the financial elite.




Lol
Trump fan boy derangement syndrome right there


----------



## Darc Knight (22 July 2018)

cynic said:


> Surely international intergovernmental liaisons, are part and parcel of many roles at his level, aren't they?!!
> 
> It sounds like the FBI might be simply accusing him of doing his job!!




He was a campaign member, not doing government business.
You blokes are just trolling.


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Yes, and the FBI concluded " Mr Page has established relationships with Russian Government officials, including Russian intelligence officers."
> 
> 
> Not sure what your MAGA means though.



This is an old report thats actually being used to question the fbi as to why they shadowed page. 
So why isn't he in jail now? 

The questioned him, he denied ( his actual explanation was blacked out) and the fbi let him go.  Does he still hold a government position?


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> He was a campaign member, not doing government business.



Huh?


----------



## cynic (22 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> He was a campaign member, not doing government business.
> You blokes are just trolling.



You seem to have taken more interest in this than myself, but from what I can discern from the linked articles, this looks suspiciously akin to a politically motivated exercise in mudslinging, rather than a sincerely expressed concern over purported espionage incident/s.

I would want to see clearer evidence of inappropriate conduct, before gravitating to the, dearly beloved, conclusion, that is being so eagerly promoted by the political opposition.


----------



## cynic (22 July 2018)

Speaking of the FBI and evidence of inappropriate conduct: 

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/12/politics/strzok-testimony-text-message/index.html


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2018)

How about Blumenthal,  cody shearer,  and the steele dossier and then fbi involvement. Lets ignore that side of the story.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2018)

This is a pretty standard tactic.

Pretend everyone else is crazy, apart from yourself.

Self delusion at it's best/worst.


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> This is a pretty standard tactic.
> 
> Pretend everyone else is crazy, apart from yourself.
> 
> Self delusion at it's best/worst.



Says the guy that rocks up with nothing.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> Says the guy that rocks up with nothing.




Nothing ?

Simple observation of Trump's almost daily backdowns, backflips, "I never said that", "I meant to say this", staff sackings or resignations and observations of his former staff... provides ample evidence of his  instability, incompetence and unfitness for office.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Nothing ?
> 
> Simple observation of Trump's almost daily backdowns, backflips, "I never said that", "I meant to say this", staff sackings or resignations and observations of his former staff... provides ample evidence of his  instability, incompetence and unfitness for office.



The question isnt "Is trump a dkhead liar" clearly he is.
The question is "Do we have enough proof to convict for collusion". Clearly we don't, yet.
We have plenty of biased media titles, opinions and possibilities. But nothing solid to string him. 
And there also seems to be a lot more to the story then people think.

So I don’t agree. Just because we have the worlds largest asshat as the leader of the free world. That doesn't mean everything shouldn't be fully investigated.


----------



## notting (23 July 2018)

Country Lad said:


> I think you misinterpret the body language, this is commonly his position in face to face meetings, especially in cabinet meetings:
> 
> *Standard Arm-Cross Gesture*
> Both arms are folded together across the chest as an attempt to ‘hide’ from an unfavourable situation. There are many arm-folding positions, but this book will discuss the three most common ones. The standard arm-cross gesture (Figure 70) is a universal gesture signifying the same defensive or negative attitude almost everywhere.
> ...



That's a standard cross armed one, commonly described as it is.
But the Trump one is definitely self nurturing.  It's not just defensive.
This example is amazing.  It speaks for itself.  But if you need further clarification the fact that he also then asked everyone if they are OK after the event just shows how freaked out he is and afraid of his own intelligence community.



If you don't think he is freaking out, ask yourself this question.  How many times in your life have you been sitt'n around in a meeting or at home and the lights fade out for a second or two.  What did you do?  Did you start asking your family members if they were OK??!!  Like seriously!  There's a lot of projection and self assurance in that, trying to pose as OK by asking others if they are OK! Like, yeah dude.  I think we can handle it!! Pe4rhaps he was expecting a SWAT team and an arrest!!

But in the end, like I have always said. they will get him on money laundering via Russia, not collusion.
And their starting to close in, I got this today!!


> Trump's businesses went bankrupt so many times in the 1990s that many legitimate banks wouldn’t lend to him anymore. He turned to Russian oligarchs -- Putin’s ruling clique -- to bankroll his projects, and launder their dirty money for them. This was, and continues to be, a huge part of his business. *He’s a Russian money launderer.*
> 
> _*"We don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia."*_
> Donald Trump JR, 2014


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Correct! I would run a Mile. I've always said that. Trump is a highly intelligent predator who has fine tuned his Sociopathy to the point a lot of people who aren't aware of his past or the evolution of sucessful sociopaths can't see him for who he really is. He would make minced meat of most people as most successful sociopaths do. He is an apex predator.



I’ve had significant dealings with someone who I perceive to have a very similar personality to Trump’s.

If I could summarise them and what they do in three words it would be “destroy all opposition” and one way or another that’s exactly what they’ve done no matter what the cost.

Suffice to say I see a lot of parallels between Trump as he appears via the media and someone I’ve dealt with in real life.

In saying that the smartest ones were those who realised quickly they could never win no matter what and acted accordingly. Those who were intelligent enough that logic says they should win ended up losing more than the rest in practice due to wasted time and effort.

Having seen similar behaviour first hand the whole thing scares me really.

However it ends it will be dramatic.


----------



## Darc Knight (23 July 2018)

I've struck this elsewhere. Some Trump "fan boys" just like to argue and deny and carry on. It's like there aren't any Flies around for them to pull the wings off so Trump detractors become their targets instead, and it, the trolling just goes on and on and on.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> I've struck this elsewhere. Some Trump "fan boys" just like to argue and deny and carry on. It's like there aren't any Flies around for them to pull the wings off so Trump detractors become their targets instead, and it, the trolling just goes on and on and on.



Funny how trump derangement brings out insults and little else. Wake me up when Trump is actually impeached for something.


----------



## Darc Knight (23 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> Funny how trump derangement brings out insults and little else. Wake me up when Trump is actually impeached for something.




Better make that a quick nap then


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

cynic said:


> Speaking of the FBI and evidence of inappropriate conduct:
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/12/politics/strzok-testimony-text-message/index.html




The final sentence of that article say it all.

It's those chattering class fools who feel dispossessed of their hitherto voices who are the real problem here; babies who have had their self righteous candies taken from them.


----------



## Darc Knight (23 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I’ve had significant dealings with someone who I perceive to have a very similar personality to Trump’s.
> 
> If I could summarise them and what they do in three words it would be “destroy all opposition” and one way or another that’s exactly what they’ve done no matter what the cost.
> 
> ...




Now this is wisdom!


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Now this is wisdom!




Wisdom is only bestowed on those who agree with ones own point of view.


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> Funny how trump derangement brings out insults and little else. Wake me up when Trump is actually impeached for something.




I wonder when the FBI became the goto man for permission of a president, or citizen to engage with someone else? Is the USA at war with Russia, coz I missed the declaration if that's the case.?


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> I wonder when the FBI became the goto man for permission of a president, or citizen to engage with someone else?



Ever since J Edgar Hoover was tarting it up.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Better make that a quick nap then



Can we at least wait for a credible candidate to emerge


----------



## Darc Knight (23 July 2018)

Mo's gonna hate me 



notting said:


> But in the end, like I have always said. they will get him on money laundering via Russia, not collusion.
> And their starting to close in, I got this today!!




You peaked my interest. Geez Donald Jnr has a habit of spilling the beans doesn't he. Found this

"_That so many of the transactions and behaviors of the Trump business empire and Michael Cohen’s empire appear to hew so closely to the well-known patterns and stages of money laundering deeply troubles Sharma."

https://www.wired.com/story/if-trump-is-laundering-russian-money-heres-how-it-works/amp_


----------



## Junior (23 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I’ve had significant dealings with someone who I perceive to have a very similar personality to Trump’s.
> 
> If I could summarise them and what they do in three words it would be “destroy all opposition” and one way or another that’s exactly what they’ve done no matter what the cost.
> 
> ...




I also have an experience with a Trump-like personality.

The narcissistic individual attracts many followers and fans, as they perceive him to be charismatic and strong.  The reality is that it will all blow up at some point, and there will be no winners, least of all his fans.

The best course of action is to stay away and enjoy your life, let others deal with the bullsh!t.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Mo's gonna hate me
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats a lot of assumptions  (could be plausible). But still not a lot to pin him with yet.  Given his dodgy business dealings, you can't rule it out.

The Magnitsky Act can grab any overseas loot if found to be from the  Russian human rights abusers (I wonder who decides if you are a Russian badie). So Russians do try to hide or wash their cash. I know Putin mentioned browder in the "swap". So Putin is obviously pssed about it. 

Still its all speculation. Whats solid at this time? 
Hillarys team engaged the Russians for a dirt file through associates. 
They got a suspect warrant.

Russian meddling and collusion with the Russians are two different things. We apparently have Russian meddling so far.
Russia blasts propaganda every election. But they don’t import 3 million hillbillies to swing a vote. 
The US does similar propaganda drives and a lot worse in their hacks.

It's actually a really interesting story that will eventually come to full light (hopefully).


----------



## Knobby22 (23 July 2018)

Junior said:


> I also have an experience with a Trump-like personality.
> 
> The narcissistic individual attracts many followers and fans, as they perceive him to be charismatic and strong.  The reality is that it will all blow up at some point, and there will be no winners, least of all his fans.
> 
> The best course of action is to stay away and enjoy your life, let others deal with the bullsh!t.



Examples: John Elliot. Don Argus.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Examples: John Elliot. Don Argus.




Clive Palmer definitely, Alan Bond, Rupert Murdoch.


----------



## basilio (23 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I’ve had significant dealings with someone who I perceive to have a very similar personality to Trump’s.
> 
> If I could summarise them and what they do in three words it would be “destroy all opposition” and one way or another that’s exactly what they’ve done no matter what the cost.
> 
> ...




Any of us who have had to deal with a sociopath like Donald Trump would readily understand and agree with these observations. 
The scary part is that this sociopath heads the most powerful country in the world. Like all socipaths he has no regard for conventions that don't suit him - hence refusing to table tax returns, conducting  international diplomacy via Twitter, lying through his teeth to the point that nothing he says can be taken as accurate without independent evidence.

Darc Night made a point about the Russian financial connections being the hold Putin has on Trump. These have been explored a number of times but when they are brought together in one package (with credible evidence) the dots are well joined. Check out this .

I would have like to just pinned a few paragraphs and given the link but that  I can't find the story as presented here on their wedbsite !  I have therefore posted the whole article.
 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dear friends,

It’s now shockingly clear that Donald Trump is Putin’s poodle.






But we need the world to understand why, before it’s too late…

Trump's businesses went bankrupt so many times in the 1990s that many legitimate banks wouldn’t lend to him anymore. He turned to Russian oligarchs -- Putin’s ruling clique -- to bankroll his projects, and launder their dirty money for them. This was, and continues to be, a huge part of his business. *He’s a Russian money launderer.*

_*"We don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia."*_ 
Donald Trump JR, 2014
This isn’t speculation or hyperbole. There's mountains of evidence. Trump’s former election campaign Chairman, Paul Manafort, has deep ties to Russian oligarchs, and is currently in jail awaiting trial on, among other charges, money laundering! 

Here are 5 more top facts everyone should know about Trump's long collusion with Russian organised criminals -- *forward this email and share it on Facebook* -- we all deserve to know the truth:


Share on Facebook


1 
	

		
			
		

		
	





Trump’s main financial backer for the Trump Tower Toronto was a Russian-Canadian billionaire who got the money by selling a massive steel mill in Ukraine for nearly a billion dollars. $100 million of that money was paid to a Kremlin-backed fixer, likely as a bribe to VERY high Russian officials. The Chairman of the Bank who financed the deal? Vladimir Putin.


2 
	

		
			
		

		
	





Trump bought his home in Palm Beach, Florida for $41 million. A few years later, with no real increase in the value -- he sold it for $95 million -- the most expensive home in America at the time! Why? A major Russian oligarch bought it -- we don’t know yet why he effectively ‘gave’ Trump $54 million. But it’s classic money laundering practice.


3 
	

		
			
		

		
	





Trump's real estate deals were often fuelled by Russian money, typically passed through shady shell companies. 77% of Trump Soho apartments were bought with cash by such mysterious companies. At least 13 people with links to Russian oligarchs or mobsters lived in Trump properties, including one of Russia's top mobsters. One even ran a high-stakes illegal gambling ring in the apartment right below Trump's!

_*"Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets"*_ 
Donald Trump JR, 2008

4 
	

		
			
		

		
	





Trump’s financial broker and “Senior Advisor” was a Russian convicted felon named Felix Sater, widely known as a mafia figure who once stabbed someone in the face with a broken margarita glass, requiring over 100 stitches. Sater helped set up shell companies, and arranged funding for Trump’s projects, including plans for Trump Tower Moscow. He’s also part of Putin’s inner circle. Here’s one email he wrote to Trump’s lawyer Michael Cohen in November, 2015:

_"Michael I arranged for Ivanka to sit in Putins private chair at his desk and office in the Kremlin. I will get Putin on this program and we will get Donald elected. We both know no one else knows how to pull this off without stupidity or greed getting in the way. I know how to play it and we will get this done. Buddy our boy can become President of the USA and we can engineer it. I will get all of Putins team to buy in on this, I will."_
New York Times, August 27, 2017

5 
	

		
			
		

		
	





Trump’s other main business is casinos -- which are classic money laundering vehicles. One of his casinos was 100 times found in violation of federal rules protecting against money laundering, and paid the largest fine ever levied against a casino for having “willfully violated” anti-money laundering rules. Trump has a legal obligation to do “due diligence” for all his businesses to prevent laundering. His senior executive’s comment on this was “Donald doesn’t do diligence”.


*The Big Picture*
*Putin* is a former KGB officer who has used chemical weapons, _assassinated_ people in other countries, _invaded_ the Ukraine, _occupied_ Crimea, _shot down_ the MH17 airliner with almost 300 passengers on board, aided a murderous regime in Syria, condoned the _beating and torture_ of gays, _stolen_ up to $200 billion from his own people, _hacked_ foreign elections and _launched_ what NATO calls the largest hybrid warfare campaign in history to undermine western liberal democracies. He is also widely believed to have ordered the _murder_ of Russian journalists and critics, and _bombed_ hundreds of Russian civilians to fake a terrorist attack and justify a war in Chechnya.

*Yet when asked at their press conference if Trump had any criticism of Putin, he had none, and ridiculed US law enforcement for investigating Russian attacks on US democracy! *
Why? Trump has been working for Putin's corrupt inner circle for almost 20 years. And it's that corrupt circle that promises to make him rich for the next 20 (he's refused, in violation of all ethics, to divest from his businesses as President).

Trump *may* be a Russian intelligence asset, he *may* have colluded with Putin to sabotage the US election. But what is clear is that *he is a corrupt Russian money launderer, in the pocket of a KGB dictator.* The whole world needs to know this, and rally together to prevent the damage this corrupt alliance threatens. Share this email with everyone…


Share on Facebook


With hope,

Ricken, Emma, Rewan, Joseph, Morgan, Spyro, Flora and the whole Avaaz team

*PS* -- scroll down for a TON of credible, trustworthy, fact-checked sources for everything in this email. Avaaz isn't one of those absurd troll publications that slings lies for profit -- we're a nonprofit, and every time we make an error anywhere, we publish the correction on our accuracy page, linked from the front of our website.

*PPS* -- if Trump the 'organized criminal money launderer' sounds like a stretch to you, consider it just the tip of the iceberg of Trump's known corruption:


His 'charitable foundation' is likely to be shut down for multiple examples of fraud.
Trump 'University' scammed legions of vulnerable people out of their money.
He had an affair with a pornstar and paid her to keep quiet -- she says she was also threatened with physical violence.
His ex-wife attested in court documents that he brutally raped her while tearing out her hair after he didn't like the hair replacement doctor she recommended.
He bragged, on tape, about sexually assaulting multiple women.
Hundreds of people hired by Trump say he simply decided not to pay them for their work -- including dishwashers, painters and waiters, some of whom were making minimum wage.
He has been sued, and forced to pay out settlements, over a hundred times.
Trump is not a devil -- he's a human being, and like all people he has positive qualities and legitimate views. But anyone who denies that he is deeply corrupt, isn't looking at the facts. To understand Trump, and protect our world from him, we need to understand his corruption.


*MORE INFORMATION *

Trump’s Russian Laundromat (The New Republic)
https://newrepublic.com/article/143...ses-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate 

Everything We Know About Russia and President Trump (Committee to Investigate Russia)
https://investigaterussia.org/timelines/everything-we-know-about-russia-and-president-trump 

Secret Money: How Trump Made Millions Selling Condos To Unknown Buyers (Buzzfeed News)
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...ney-how-trump-made-millions-selling-condos-to 

Trump’s Russian connections (Financial Times)
https://ig.ft.com/sites/trumps-russian-connections/ 

Dirty money: Trump and the Kazakh connection (Financial Times)
https://www.ft.com/content/33285dfa-9231-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923 

Trump's oldest son said a decade ago that a lot of the family's assets came from Russia (Business Insider)
http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-jr-said-money-pouring-in-from-russia-2018-2 

Sales of Trump properties suggestive of money-laundering - researcher (Reuters)
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-u...-of-money-laundering-researcher-idUKKBN1F8058 

Tower of secrets: the Russian money behind a Donald Trump skyscraper (Financial Times)
https://www.ft.com/trumptoronto

Trump Tower Toronto Was 'Investment Scheme And Conspiracy': Lawsuit (Huffington Post)
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/11/07/trump-tower-toronto-lawsuit_n_12849150.html?guccounter=1 

If Trump Is Laundering Russian Money, Here’s How It Works (Wired)
https://www.wired.com/story/if-trump-is-laundering-russian-money-heres-how-it-works/ 

Trump's casino was a money laundering concern shortly after it opened (CNN)
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-taj-mahal/index.html 

Donald Trump and the mansion that no one wanted. Then came a Russian fertilizer king (Miami Herald)
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article135187364.html 

Everything you want to know about Donald Trump's bankruptcies (CNN)
https://money.cnn.com/2015/08/31/news/companies/donald-trump-bankruptcy/

Canada's highest court upholds ruling that Donald Trump did mislead investors (The Independent)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...legal-case-against-us-president-a7623566.html 

Russian elite invested nearly $100 million in Trump buildings (Reuters)
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-trump-property/

Why did a Russian pay $95M to buy Trump’s Palm Beach mansion? (The Seattle Times)
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...ian-pay-95m-to-buy-trumps-palm-beach-mansion/ 

The Russia investigation and Donald Trump: a timeline from on-the-record sources (updated) (Politifact)
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-investigation-donald-trump-timeline-updated/ 

Here are 10 critics of Vladimir Putin who died violently or in suspicious ways (Washington Post)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...us-ways/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.8507f77dfcb1 

A Brief History of Attempted Russian Assassinations by Poison (Foreign Policy)
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/09/a-brief-history-of-attempted-russian-assassinations-by-poison/ 

International Criminal Court: Russia's Invasion Of Ukraine Is A 'Crime,' Not A Civil War (Forbes)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulro...aine-is-a-crime-not-a-civil-war/#1cf1ce247ddb 

Donald Trump’s Worst Deal: The President helped build a hotel in Azerbaijan that appears to be a corrupt operation engineered by oligarchs tied to Iran’s Revolutionary Guard (The New Yorker)
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-worst-deal

Trump’s Business of Corruption (The New Yorker)
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/21/trumps-business-of-corruption 

Trump lawyer 'paid by Ukraine' to arrange White House talks (BBC)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44215656 

After becoming President, Trump has sold millions in real estate in secret deals (Newsweek)
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-real-estate-secret-buyers-777276 

Just What Were Donald Trump's Ties to the Mob? (Politico)
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/donald-trump-2016-mob-organized-crime-213910 

Russian lawyer from infamous Trump Tower meeting admits to being an informant for the Kremlin: Report (CNBC)
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/27/ema...ween-trump-tower-russian-and-kremlin-nbc.html


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

basilio said:


> Any of us who have had to deal with a sociopath like Donald Trump would readily understand and agree with these observations.
> The scary part is that this sociopath heads the most powerful country in the world. Like all socipaths he has no regard for conventions that don't suit him - hence refusing to table tax returns, conducting  international diplomacy via Twitter, lying through his teeth to the point that nothing he says can be taken as accurate without independent evidence.
> 
> Darc Night made a point about the Russian financial connections being the hold Putin has on Trump. These have been explored a number of times but when they are brought together in one package (with credible evidence) the dots are well joined. Check out this .
> ...




All about as true as "Sec. of State Hillary Clinton's approval of a deal to transfer control of 20% of U.S. uranium deposits to a Russian company was a quid pro quo exchange for donations to the Clinton Foundation. "

You should post proofs instead of fake news and conspiracy theories


----------



## Darc Knight (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> All about as true as "Sec. of State Hillary Clinton's approval of a deal to transfer control of 20% of U.S. uranium deposits to a Russian company was a quid pro quo exchange for donations to the Clinton Foundation. "
> 
> You should post proofs instead of fake news and conspiracy theories




That all you got? Bas's post includes names, dates, convictions and exact transactions etc which have left an audit trail - all verifiable.

Hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. Trump fan boys will scream "fake news" just because they don't like the forecast


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> That all you got? Bas's post includes names, dates, convictions and exact transactions etc which have left an audit trail - all verifiable.
> 
> Hope it doesn't rain tomorrow. Trump fan boys will scream "fake news" just because they don't like the forecast




Some internet guy expresses his conspiracy pathology by cobbling together other people's individuality crisis pieces and that somehow equates to fact. The need to be part of conspiracy theories is a pathology of people who have a need to express their desire to be seen as individualistic even though they are stuck fast in the of no consequence queue.

This what we get. It starts as a trickle, of giving people the opportunity to speak rubbish without being caned for being stupid. Then all the Mr and Mrs Stupids get onboard and like spontaneous combustion they all have a sheeple voice, a sheeple audience and a need to vandalise society and character assassinate to keep the adrenaline and the faux intellectuals engaged. It's like a disease propogating its own efficacy. 

When these beige people who have no industry about them and who presumably work in govt or allied industry finally strangle the West with too much bureaucractic oversight , they will all crawl away to their natural beige habitats and grumble how we have lost that frontier, have a go spirit and entrepreneurial nous and resent the life sucking monster they created.


----------



## Darc Knight (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Some internet guy expresses his conspiracy pathology by cobbling together other people's individuality crisis pieces and that somehow equates to fact. The need to be part of conspiracy theories is a pathology of people who have a need to express their desire to be seen as individualistic even though they are stuck fast in the of no consequence queue.
> 
> This what we get. It starts as a trickle, of giving people the opportunity to speak rubbish without being caned for being stupid. Then all the Mr and Mrs Stupids get onboard and like spontaneous combustion they all have a sheeple voice, a sheeple audience and a need to vandalise society and character assassinate to keep the adrenaline and the faux intellectuals engaged. It's like a disease propogating its own efficacy.
> 
> When these beige people who have no industry about them and who presumably work in govt or allied industry finally strangle the West with too much bureaucractic oversight , they will all crawl away to their natural beige habitats and grumble how we have lost that frontier, have a go spirit and entrepreneurial nous and resent the life sucking monster they created.




Lol. Try again pls. Names, dates and substantial evidence may help your futile cause


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Lol. Try again pls. Names, dates and substantial evidence may help your futile cause





I'm not sure why you think you are in control of this? Your emoticon belies the transparent insecurity you feel about the subject and attempts to have everyone group hug in acceptance of fantasy stories concocted by political nobody enemies of a man who was elected to the most powerful position on the planet. There's no accolades for celebrating tall poppy syndromes and sickness.


----------



## Darc Knight (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'm not sure why you think you are in control of this? Your emoticon belies the transparent insecurity you feel about the subject and attempts to have everyone group hug in acceptance of fantasy stories concocted by political nobody enemies of a man who was elected to the most powerful position on the planet. There's no accolades for celebrating tall poppy syndromes and sickness.




Still not an evidence based rebuttal, just a personal attack.
Names, dates and other evidence will suffice! (no emoticon, just for you).


----------



## basilio (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> You should post proofs instead of fake news and conspiracy theories




Shirley you must be joking...!!

You get a history a mile long from investigations, trials, bankruptcy reports, investigative journalists across many media.... and it's all fake news and conspiracy theory.  

Crazeee....  The Don would be truly proud of you.


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Still not an evidence based rebuttal, just a personal attack.
> Names, dates and other evidence will suffice! (no emoticon, just for you).





That wasn't a personal attack, I think you're a decent type, but in so saying that it's not a good look sledging a world leader on the back of noise from a hostile public service, hostile lobbiest industry, hostile media, etc who all have their noses out of joint because Trump doesn't consult with them and conform to the established norms that had sent the USA down a slippery slope. 

He let everyone know during the election that he had little regard for the Capitol establishments and I think he sees himself as Mr Smith Goes to Washington.


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

basilio said:


> Shirley you must be joking...!!
> 
> You get a history a mile long from investigations, trials, bankruptcy reports, investigative journalists across many media.... and it's all fake news and conspiracy theory.
> 
> Crazeee....  The Don would be truly proud of you.




Any more hysterical chatter left in the tank?


----------



## Darc Knight (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> That wasn't a personal attack, I think you're a decent type, but in so saying that it's not a good look sledging a world leader on the back of noise from a hostile public service, hostile lobbiest industry, hostile media, etc who all have their noses out of joint because Trump doesn't consult with them and conform to the established norms that had sent the USA down a slippery slope.
> 
> He let everyone know during the election that he had little regard for the Capitol establishments and I think he sees himself as Mr Smith Goes to Washington.




Come on, let's stick to the topic. Theres enough evidence on Trump out there to make him accountable


----------



## Junior (23 July 2018)

Fake News and Snowflakes everywhere!


----------



## basilio (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Some internet guy expresses his conspiracy pathology by cobbling together other people's individuality crisis pieces and that somehow equates to fact. The need to be part of conspiracy theories is a pathology of people who have a need to express their desire to be seen as individualistic even though they are stuck fast in the of no consequence queue.
> 
> This what we get. It starts as a trickle, of giving people the opportunity to speak rubbish without being caned for being stupid. Then all the Mr and Mrs Stupids get onboard and like spontaneous combustion they all have a sheeple voice, a sheeple audience and a need to vandalise society and character assassinate to keep the adrenaline and the faux intellectuals engaged. It's like a disease propogating its own efficacy.
> 
> When these beige people who have no industry about them and who presumably work in govt or allied industry finally strangle the West with too much bureaucractic oversight , they will all crawl away to their natural beige habitats and grumble how we have lost that frontier, have a go spirit and entrepreneurial nous and resent the life sucking monster they created.




So this is the long story of "Its all Fake News.  He done NOTHING. They are all just losers and meanies"

No point being hysterical about such a response. But the questions it raises about your capacity to view reality Tisme.....


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

He was a NY developer, they were dodgy as fcuk. Business dealings with shady income sources is all you have left after bankruptcy. Its not new and its pretty common. 
How long did he spend in prison guys?

On another note this is funny if true.



> Someone *convicted* of multiple felonies whether he served his sentences or not is eligible to run for office, *be* elected, and serve his term. He *can* even serve from prison. ... A criminal *conviction* usually makes for some pretty good attack ads, so I doubt that a *convicted felon* could realistically *be* elected *President*.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

basilio said:


> So this is the long story of "Its all Fake News.  He done NOTHING. They are all just losers and meanies"
> 
> No point being hysterical about such a response. But the questions it raises about your capacity to view reality Tisme.....



Proof he rigged the election?  Thats the original argument. And thats where the left get hysterical and lose sight of reality.  I've no doubt he was dodgy.

If hillary is complicit,  or the dems/gop,  or Obama,  then let em all fall. I'd rather the rot on capital hill be exposed,  rather than covered up. 

You can biatch and moan about trump,  but he is bringing the whole lot down.  Even if it is on his own head.


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

basilio said:


> So this is the long story of "Its all Fake News.  He done NOTHING. They are all just losers and meanies"
> 
> No point being hysterical about such a response. But the questions it raises about your capacity to view reality Tisme.....





Blah blah blah. None of you lot can find anything to pin on Donald, because the only news source you can draw is subjective twaffle from news and social media.

Do you really think the FBI are going to listen to nutters on the internet to prove a guilt? They lack evidence and the burden of proof, otherwise they would have displayed the smoking gun by now, but that  doesn't stop the ill informed public knowing better than them.


----------



## Darc Knight (23 July 2018)




----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Blah blah blah. None of you lot can find anything to pin on Donald, because the only news source you can draw is subjective twaffle from news and social media.




We will see. If investigations find that Trump is dependent on Russia for his corporate finances then that introduces a pretty clear conflict of interest.

If they can't get him on that, then the system is broken.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

Alec Baldwin absolutely nailing trump?
I ain't that much of a fanboy.


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> We will see. If investigations find that Trump is dependent on Russia for his corporate finances then that introduces a pretty clear conflict of interest.
> 
> If they can't get him on that, then the system is broken.




Then he gets the rounds and he's sent packing, Then what... Mike Pence?

With Islam on the rise and rise, the US couldn't continue being the world police anymore, so someone had to stop the bleed and redefine the boundaries.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> With Islam on the rise and rise, the US couldn't continue being the world police anymore, so someone had to stop the bleed and redefine the boundaries.




You do that by cooperation with your country's friends, not by alliances with your nation's enemies for the sake of your own finances.


----------



## basilio (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Blah blah blah. None of you lot can find anything to pin on Donald, because the only news source you can draw is subjective twaffle from news and social media.
> 
> Do you really think the FBI are going to listen to nutters on the internet to prove a guilt? They lack evidence and the burden of proof, otherwise they would have displayed the smoking gun by now, but that  doesn't stop the ill informed public knowing better than them.




You really can make up a ton of dribble can't you Tisme?
Lets try something called facts for a change.

1)  Trump has a business/financial history that at the best is called "colourful" or as Moxjo  so neatly noted "a New York property developer- shady as fcuk".  The documentation of his  creative business practices, dodgy Trump university, sham financial  arrangements is on public record.  Your efforts at waving these away as Fake news is risible.

2) As a part of these well documented facts there is another thread which explores the financial relations Donald Trump has with Russian tycoons. The exceptionally generous purchases of property. The big business loans. The joint development deals.  Simply done as businessman these could just be sharp practice. *But when you are President of the US they represent a conflict of interest that up until now would have been completely unacceptable. See Rumpys point.*

3)  There is a third strand which is currently under investigation by the FBI.* Did the Russians actively assist Donald Trumps election and was this done with the knowledge and support of Trump and his team ? *This is an ongoing investigation which Donald Trump has attempted at every point to derail,  deride,  deny and abuse. There is an excellent summary of the public knowledge(to date) about this investigation on Wikipedia. When all the dots are joined together we can see where they lead. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> You do that by cooperation with your country's friends, not by alliances with your nation's enemies for the sake of your own finances.




The USA have never been in it for the good of the all. They profiteered off the misery of two world wars to make their fortunes and enjoy that largess through the fifties while everyone else lived off food stamps or welfare. When did we decide we should concern ourselves with the comfort of the US? 

Europe has managed to recover again, just like it has for millenia and the USA is less important because of it.


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

basilio said:


> You really can make up a ton of dribble can't you Tisme?
> Lets try something called facts for a change.
> 
> 1)  Trump has a business/financial history that at the best is called "colourful" or as Moxjo  so neatly noted "a New York property developer- shady as fcuk".  The documentation of his  creative business practices, dodgy Trump university, sham financial  arrangements is on public record.  Your efforts at waving these away as Fake news is risible.
> ...





1) your opinion nothing else
2) business dealings are not illegal and actually promoted by previous admins
3) under investigation is no proof of guilt and Wiki is not a peer reviewed source of information


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> When did we decide we should concern ourselves with the comfort of the US?




In an unstable world you need a stable US, and it's not that at the moment.


----------



## luutzu (23 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> In an unstable world you need a stable US, and it's not that at the moment.




The US is not there to keep the world stable. It's not their job to.

The world will be stable no matter who's in charge. It could be Putin's Russia, China, or if Hitler had won and surived, his Third Reich.

As long as there's a dominant power, most of the world will be at peace. Just those at peace happen to be part of the Pax. Those not in the Pax gets what weak and friendless countries get: a heavy dose of civilisation.

The reason there's so many wars at the moment is... among other things, the global hegemon is starting to lose its grip.

Or maybe not losing it, but the grips aren't as effective as it used to be.

So there are warlords and unrest all over the colonies. The master is too busy milking the resources to take home rather than tending to the coolies bare minimum needs.

Add to that a rising China who smash natives where they must, but are generally forced to be more diplomatic and magnanimous in countries where doing the same crap as the current boss aren't as effective.

"Empires wax and wane. States coalesces and fall asunder."


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Now this is wisdom!



I knew little about Trump prior to him being elected as US President.

He's some sort of businessman with a hotel tower carrying his name in Las Vegas which is notable as being the only one to apply for and be permanently refused a license to operate a casino and he was on a TV show. That's literally all I knew about him indeed I wouldn't have recognised him in a photo since I've never watched the TV show.

Since him becoming President, well all I can really say is I see an awful lot of similarities with something I witnessed first hand from another individual and the similarities are ongoing to this day. It's the same crap just in a different context but it's the same thing yes.

Those with the best social intelligence will already have gotten well out of his way very quickly.

Those with the best intellectual intelligence will be getting out of his way one by one and all wishing they'd done it sooner.

Those who dare express a different view and who haven't got out of the way will be removed one way or another.

What remains will be a group that dares not challenge the almighty leader. The ultimate in group think, enforced by fear, and an incredibly dangerous situation since nobody is infallible.

I would most definitely like to be proven wrong on this one. I hope I've misinterpreted and that Trump isn't what I think he is. If I am right however then I'll give you one prediction and that is that it will end dramatically.

The details are impossible to predict but years will be spent picking up the pieces.

As I said, I'm hoping to be proven wrong but I sure don't like what I'm seeing so far as the man's personality is concerned.


----------



## luutzu (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> 1) your opinion nothing else
> 2) business dealings are not illegal and actually promoted by previous admins
> 3) under investigation is no proof of guilt and Wiki is not a peer reviewed source of information




Correction: Wiki is a peer review source of info.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> The US is not there to keep the world stable. It's not their job to.




I disagree. As the country with the biggest collection of nukes and the biggest military in the world it acts as a constraint on the misuse of power by upstart totalitarian states who care little about individual rights etc that we take for granted.

If that power balance is upset, then nasty things will happen sooner or later.


----------



## luutzu (23 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I disagree. As the country with the biggest collection of nukes and the biggest military in the world it acts as a constraint on the misuse of power by upstart totalitarian states who care little about individual rights etc that we take for granted.
> 
> If that power balance is upset, then nasty things will happen sooner or later.




While it does act to constrain other country's misuse of force, it does not necessarily constrain its own misuse, or those of its friends and servants. 

Takes for example the French missions in north/west Africa.  Or Israel's genocide on the Palestinians. Or Saudi Arabia's on Yemen. Or the US diplomatic tools of sanctioning countries whose leaders they don't like. 

So yes, as long as a country do as they're told... peace be with them. If they don't... Iran, Venezuela, Libya, Syria etc. etc.

So your point being that, well... if an upstart were to challenge the status quo, things will be a whole lot worst. Wars will start all over again.

Maybe, maybe not. 

Competition might do the ... yea, alright, you're right on that one. 

We're so screwed.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> While it does act to constrain other country's misuse of force, it does not necessarily constrain its own misuse




A current non-military example is the US proposing to outlaw OPEC (the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries - basically the Arabs and a few others who meet periodically in Vienna) as an illegal cartel.

Now what on earth leads the US to think it has any right whatsoever to dictate to other countries how they do business?

If Saudi or the UAE or whoever wants to increase or reduce their production of oil then that's for them to decide not the US.

If the US thinks that's a good idea then they ought to be open to others doing the same. Eg they should have no problems if Australia informs the US that Australian gun laws will now apply throughout the US and likewise if somewhere like France decides that their labour laws now apply in the US. If it's good for the goose......

I seriously think that Trump is just going out of his way to upset anyone and everyone for the sake of upsetting them. Oddly that might just encourage peace since it puts pretty much everyone else in the same boat with a common problem.

Back to my seeing parallels with someone I've dealt with in real life, another common theme in both cases is the creation of chaos. In the case of Trump it seems that other world leaders have given up even pretending to know what's going on these days. Once the dust inevitably settles it will turn out that one or two knew all along what was going on and that the chaos was really just to divert attention and chew up the resources (time, money, lawyers, whatever) of those who might stand in the way.


----------



## Tisme (23 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> Correction: Wiki is a peer review source of info.




Yeah OK, in the absence of credentialed experts, it's peer reviewed.


----------



## luutzu (23 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Yeah OK, in the absence of credentialed experts, it's peer reviewed.




An intelligent reader does not need the author's credentials to know if their content is worth anything


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

> While Trump has expressed an affinity for Putin, no evidence of a direct monetary link between Trump and the Kremlin has been presented. The question raised by the ABC report was the possibility that Trump might use the office of president to benefit his own finances, while the blog posts asserted that Trump’s relationship with Russia had less to do with business than with cozying up to the Kremlin — a claim that was not made by the original source of the story.



This is from snopes. It should be clear that he was selling condos to the Russians at one stage. After the sanctions in 2014 (I think) the sanctions stopped the money coming in.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/russia-paid-donald-trump-millions-of-dollars/

Heres an article on Russian money sloping into the Clinton foundation and tony podesta



> Ever since Watergate, the mantra of all major corruption investigations has been to "follow the money." Well, Americans of all political stripes should be outraged by the fact that both Democrats and Republicans in Washington are up to their eyeballs in Kremlin cash. Russian money found its way into the pockets of not only Trump advisers like Paul Manafort and Rick Gates — who were recently indicted by special counsel Robert Mueller —but also Democratic power lobbyist Tony Podesta, Bill Clinton and the Clinton Foundation.
> 
> This should suggest to objective observers that Russia was using its money to influence both sides in order to advance the Kremlin's interests. And it means that any full and impartial investigation of Russia's efforts to influence our political process needs to follow the Russian money flowing into the coffers of the Clintons, their foundation and their top associates.
> 
> ...




https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.c...-investigation-russia-20171120-story,amp.html


The Clinton foundation has a lot of rumors mixed with facts. But the Clintons are political beasts. They hide it well.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I knew little about Trump prior to him being elected as US President.
> 
> He's some sort of businessman with a hotel tower carrying his name in Las Vegas which is notable as being the only one to apply for and be permanently refused a license to operate a casino and he was on a TV show. That's literally all I knew about him indeed I wouldn't have recognised him in a photo since I've never watched the TV show.
> 
> ...



Toxic personalities are great for burning it all down though. Trump is the endgame to a long line of political shtbags.


----------



## PZ99 (24 July 2018)

Grab 'em by the history book 

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/1.../?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter


----------



## Darc Knight (24 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I knew little about Trump prior to him being elected as US President.
> 
> He's some sort of businessman with a hotel tower carrying his name in Las Vegas which is notable as being the only one to apply for and be permanently refused a license to operate a casino and he was on a TV show. That's literally all I knew about him indeed I wouldn't have recognised him in a photo since I've never watched the TV show.
> 
> ...




Your experiences seem to reflect mine and others people's. Others would be well served to reflect on your words. Most people don't recognise a sociopath until it's to late and the damage is done.


----------



## Tisme (24 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> An intelligent reader does not need the author's credentials to know if their content is worth anything




Intelligent people don't use Wiki as proofs.


----------



## Tisme (24 July 2018)

PZ99 said:


> Grab 'em by the history book
> 
> http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/1.../?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter




Being an avid watcher since it started, family guy is a great vehicle for Seth McFarlane to employ innuendo as a way of revealing many industry secrets. Archer also drops a few hints now and then.

The way they mercilessly pisstakes his fellow Rhode Island friend friend James Wood, who encourages the skits is funny as.


----------



## Junior (24 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Intelligent people don't use Wiki as proofs.




What do you deem to be an acceptable source of factual information?  There have been links to a wide range of sources in this thread, and you have dismissed all of them, clearly because they don't paint Trump in a positive light.


----------



## Tisme (24 July 2018)

Junior said:


> What do you deem to be an acceptable source of factual information?  There have been links to a wide range of sources in this thread, and you have dismissed all of them, clearly because they don't paint Trump in a positive light.




I'm not going to get into an argument about wiki. You should know that wiki is editable, even by yourself and relies on others correcting your fictions. It is not a source you can use in, say a Uni thesis because is not a reliable, peer reviewed encyclopedia. The best it can be is a prompt to find out the facts.

If you can't find original author facts after seeing it on a wiki article you would have to ask yourself why that is. If you do find that article you have to then objectively breakdown the content to eliminate the subjective content and then find at least two other collaborative works to make a reliable conclusion on the supposed facts.

That is why I can easily dismiss the nonsense of posting opinion piece links thinking members are gullible enough to actually believe them. I know I don't expect people to blindly swallow links I post and in fact when they are about anything pro white male I'm reminded of that.


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2018)

Wiki is a general overview. Its not exactly fact checked. Even some of the "fact checked" sites are dubious. Even a lot of peer reviewed stuff is rubbish. Cigarette/oil companies, political biased hit pieces etc.


----------



## luutzu (24 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> A current non-military example is the US proposing to outlaw OPEC (the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries - basically the Arabs and a few others who meet periodically in Vienna) as an illegal cartel.
> 
> Now what on earth leads the US to think it has any right whatsoever to dictate to other countries how they do business?
> 
> ...




The road to freedom and greatness is a one-way street Smurf


----------



## luutzu (24 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Intelligent people don't use Wiki as proofs.




Yes they do. It's a lot more reliable than just about anything on the mainstream media.


----------



## Junior (24 July 2018)

It's funny how Trump fans yell about fake news and denounce a wide range of sources as being untrue, yet the only source they do believe in are words from the mouth of Donald Trump (proven serial liar) or posted on his Twitter feed.


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I knew little about Trump prior to him being elected as US President.
> 
> He's some sort of businessman with a hotel tower carrying his name in Las Vegas which is notable as being the only one to apply for and be permanently refused a license to operate a casino and he was on a TV show. That's literally all I knew about him indeed I wouldn't have recognised him in a photo since I've never watched the TV show.
> 
> ...



Regardless of the accuracy or otherwise of this post,  it could well describe any number of leaders and politicians od every political stripe. 

Symptomatic of Trump Derangement Syndrome, is the believe that Trump is somehow unique in this regard, withour any virtues,  and  with inferences that the alternative was somwhow less toxic. 

Notwithstanding Trump's many foibles,  his persona has been carefully crafted by the media,  a classic strawman.

If you want to bitch about fair dinkum toxicity,  look no further than the current iteration of the Democrats,  eg Maxine Waters, the gender agenda and race baiting  politics of the Marxists that have taken over that party and infected the once truly virtuous left.


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2018)

Junior said:


> It's funny how Trump fans yell about fake news and denounce a wide range of sources as being untrue, yet the only source they do believe in are words from the mouth of Donald Trump (proven serial liar) or posted on his Twitter feed.



I'm not sure anyone here has quoted him as factual?


----------



## notting (24 July 2018)

It's the gist of Trump that his base loves.
They don't care if he's a bloated bumbling lying corrupt fool.  That is the mistake the progressives have continued to make.  He's there to make America great , 'them feel good.' Then they feel like winners not China's, Muslim or transgender bitch's.  THIS IS AMERICA BOY!
Attacking Trump for his lack of progressive thought is kind of supporting his base.  They hate that cafe sippen, lefty, snowflake, faggot, talk. I'm John Wayne for God sake, Now go get me a Whisky while I eat this 5Kg peace of steak.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Most people don't recognise a sociopath until it's to late and the damage is done.



In the case I experienced personally, most of those affected initially thought the problem to be incompetence or lack of knowledge and put a great deal of effort into dealing with it on that basis. Surely this person wanted to get it right and just needed to be educated on the facts, right?

Long story short - the constant over the top drama, perceived as incompetence or just plain dumb, was in practice a very effective way of hiding the truth of what was really going on. So much resources were chewed up dealing with what seemed at face value to be the problem that everyone was in practice blind to what else was happening. 

It's like the magician on a stage. Look here, watch the hand, here's a puff of smoke and some lights, whatever. It's necessary so that you're not looking at what the magician or others are really doing at that moment in order to produce the "magic". Same concept although at least with a magician it's all just done for entertainment with everyone knowing that what they think they're seeing isn't a true reflection of reality.   

I make no claim to have worked out exactly what Trump is up to but his personality rings way too many alarm bells for me to not think there's something going on from which attention is being distracted. 

In principle I do like many of Trump's claimed thoughts and ideas, he's a desperately needed alternative to the virtually indistinguishable ideas of other supposed leaders. Trouble is, there's so much drama and distraction on a constant basis and so many readily apparent lies that I'm not silly enough to think that Trump's claims will in any way match reality.


----------



## Darc Knight (24 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> In the case I experienced personally, most of those affected initially thought the problem to be incompetence or lack of knowledge and put a great deal of effort into dealing with it on that basis. Surely this person wanted to get it right and just needed to be educated on the facts, right?
> 
> Long story short - the constant over the top drama, perceived as incompetence or just plain dumb, was in practice a very effective way of hiding the truth of what was really going on. So much resources were chewed up dealing with what seemed at face value to be the problem that everyone was in practice blind to what else was happening.
> 
> ...




Whether Trump is still a full on Sociopath I don't know. They say Sociopaths can't be cured, that only the fear of beimg caught or old age "mellows" their behaviour. With the eyes of the World on Trump, old age creeping up on him, and his desire to leave a legacy of being a great President, hopefully we are somewhat protected.
The Trump of the past appears to have been a fully fledged Sociopath, whose only ambition was to be the biggest Lion in the jungle at any cost - the cost being the victims left in his wake - like every other sociopath.


----------



## wayneL (25 July 2018)

Now look what the dirty little racist has done


----------



## Tisme (25 July 2018)

wayneL said:


> Now look what the dirty little racist has done




John seems to be one of those rare innate leaders. I can imagine he missed all the accolades due him at the time for two reasons: 1) non-com leadership heroes are an anathema to officers schools 2) he was a black man.

Master gunnery sergeant versus faceless men: President versus faceless men = two men with a common foe.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2018)

Must have been in cali.


----------



## HelloU (25 July 2018)

pretty sure that is a fake gun....just photoshopped into that picture.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> Must have been in cali.





So that's why they became extinct.

Neanderthal Trumps.


----------



## luutzu (25 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> Must have been in cali.





You do realised that his two sons actually hunt rhinos, elephants etc. right? 

Daddy just revoked the ban on importing such trophies back into the US so the two douche, among other douches, can feel like a real man having those hanging on their wall.

Apparently nothing shows off one's manhood like sitting far, very far, away shooting to kill. 

This is Sparta!-for pansies.


----------



## Darc Knight (25 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> You do realised that his two sons actually hunt rhinos, elephants etc. right?
> 
> Daddy just revoked the ban on importing such trophies back into the US so the two douche, among other douches, can feel like a real man having those hanging on their wall.
> 
> ...




Yep they, Beavis and Butthead (the two American Psychos) probably have some local natives paid less than minimum wage, stand between them and the Rhinos.


----------



## wayneL (25 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> You do realised that his two sons actually hunt rhinos, elephants etc. right?
> 
> Daddy just revoked the ban on importing such trophies back into the US so the two douche, among other douches, can feel like a real man having those hanging on their wall.
> 
> ...



For once I can agree with you.  Not cool.


----------



## Billionhero (25 July 2018)

wayneL said:


> Looking forward to the confirming ripostes from the so deranged



I want buy Cape Range ltd, these two weeks it raised 5 time to $1.1 , i think it can increse more times to $7. What do you think?


----------



## Joe Blow (25 July 2018)

Billionhero said:


> I want buy Cape Range ltd, these two weeks it raised 5 time to $1.1 , i think it can increse more times to $7. What do you think?




Hi Billionhero, you can find the Cape Range thread here. Just click through to the most recent posts to read the latest discussion.

Please note that if you think CAG can reach $7 and you want to convince others of that you will need to explain your reasons why in your post.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> You do realised that his two sons actually hunt rhinos, elephants etc. right?
> 
> Daddy just revoked the ban on importing such trophies back into the US so the two douche, among other douches, can feel like a real man having those hanging on their wall.
> 
> ...



Yeah I do and I'm against it. Buuut apparently the hunts they provide to rich douches goes back into a lot of conservative work and breeding programs. Its the poachers that are the biggest threat.
I knew a big game hunter that had killed everything. Wouldn't be surprised if he did a man hunt either. That was back in the early 90s. 
I never understood what people get out of it.

Anyway, I don't think they have shot any dinosaurs lately.


----------



## luutzu (25 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> Yeah I do and I'm against it. Buuut apparently the hunts they provide to rich douches goes back into a lot of conservative work and breeding programs. Its the poachers that are the biggest threat.
> I knew a big game hunter that had killed everything. Wouldn't be surprised if he did a man hunt either. That was back in the early 90s.
> I never understood what people get out of it.
> 
> Anyway, I don't think they have shot any dinosaurs lately.




I don't think those people are "liberals"... just Americans    Alright, that's racist... Americans who haven't seen Jurassic Park.

Yea, I heard about certain hunting being permitted to cull the population and raise much needed cash. I just don't see how anyone who'd care to conserve wildlife would go shoot one to hang up. I mean, the ones they "culled" aren't cane toads.


----------



## luutzu (25 July 2018)

wayneL said:


> For once I can agree with you.  Not cool.




Yin and Yang, Sifu.


----------



## moXJO (26 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> I don't think those people are "liberals"... just Americans    Alright, that's racist... Americans who haven't seen Jurassic Park.
> 
> Yea, I heard about certain hunting being permitted to cull the population and raise much needed cash. I just don't see how anyone who'd care to conserve wildlife would go shoot one to hang up. I mean, the ones they "culled" aren't cane toads.



Yeah I don't understand it.


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2018)

American isn't  a race Grasshopper


----------



## BlownAccount (26 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> A current non-military example is the US proposing to outlaw OPEC (the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries - basically the Arabs and a few others who meet periodically in Vienna) as an illegal cartel.
> 
> Now what on earth leads the US to think it has any right whatsoever to dictate to other countries how they do business?
> 
> ...




Could it not be argued that OPEC is colluding and fixing prices? Is this not against the rules. Considering fuel is important to the worlds economy is it not in every ones interests that those that control it do not fix prices? Seems reasonable to me. Look at the fines google has been hit with for anti competitive behaviour...


----------



## Tisme (26 July 2018)




----------



## Smurf1976 (26 July 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Could it not be argued that OPEC is colluding and fixing prices? Is this not against the rules.



They most certainly are colluding but that is not against the rules of the countries involved.

It is against US rules yes, but what the US fails to grasp is they have no proper jurisdiction anywhere other than in the US.

Just like the laws of Australia, Canada or France don't apply in the US, so too US laws don't apply in Iran, Indonesia or Venezuela. This is the bit Americans seem to have difficulty grasping - their laws do not apply to other countries.

My point is not about the price of oil but about the arrogance of the US in thinking they have the right to enforce their laws on others. If they just want to lower the price of oil then sensible discussions with the likes of Iran, Saudi etc aiming for greater cooperation with importing countries rather than threatening them with sanctions or legal action would seem more likely to succeed.

Given that Iraq, an OPEC member, doesn't even have a properly functioning power grid I'm sure they be open to the idea of US investment and technical assistance as part of a deal. Likewise, if Trump were really skilled, he might even be able to get the Saudi's to cooperate with Qatar instead of digging a trench to physically separate the two countries. That alone has the potential to put about another million barrels per day of oil on the market.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> My point is not about the price of oil but about the arrogance of the US in thinking they have the right to enforce their laws on others.




I also find it ironic that the most nuclear weapon protected country in the world can preach to others about the evils of nuclear weapons and that other countries don't have the right to protect their own citizens in the same way.


----------



## BlownAccount (26 July 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I also find it ironic that the most nuclear weapon protected country in the world can preach to others about the evils of nuclear weapons and that other countries don't have the right to protect their own citizens in the same way.




At least one could say they have shown great restraint with said weapons in the past. At the end of WW2 when Russia had the largest standing army the world has ever seen and was intent on keeping the ground they were on, the US showed restraint. They very well knew they were going to have to fight the Russians in the future and they didn't do what I have no doubt the Russians would have done. 
I don't understand how people continually underestimate the contribution the US has made for world stability. One would be prudent to see reality for what it is. Thankfully the great US has the biggest stick by far in this world. If I were Trump I would hoist a tax on everyone else. A peace tax. 10% of the combined worlds GDP. After all why should they have to shoulder the costs of keeping the peace with their money and blood. IMO anyone who truely believes the US is an issue needs to read some history. Perhaps they could move to China.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Thankfully the great US has the biggest stick by far in this world. If I were Trump I would hoist a tax on everyone else. A peace tax.




Speaking for Australia, we are one of the largest buyers of US defence equipment, so should we get a discount on that 10% ?

As I've said before, if the US pulls out of the international defence space then I think nuclear weapons will spread. Germany and Japan have the technology and Israel would certainly start producing more.


----------



## Junior (26 July 2018)

I love the insinuation of this thread.  If you don't support Trump you must be deranged.


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2018)

Junior said:


> I love the insinuation of this thread.  If you don't support Trump you must be deranged.



Oh for God's sake Junior.

It isn't,  the derangement is in the pathologically gross misrepresentation of the man.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 July 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> I don't understand how people continually underestimate the contribution the US has made for world stability.



The issue I see is that Trump is reversing much of what the US has done in the past.

Where previous US Presidents sought peace or at least a workable situation, Trump seems hell bent on starting conflict with everyone from the Middle East to Mexico.

It won't end well in my view. Sooner or later someone who matters is going to lose patience with the whole thing and implement some sort of response.

Trump wants a war and he's going to provoke pretty much everyone until he gets one.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 July 2018)

> Trump wants a war and he's going to provoke pretty much everyone until he gets one.




I don't necessarily agree with that.

It might be a case of go in hard, allow others to beat you back a bit and make them relieved that it isn't as bad as it could have been.

That's probably how he worked his business deals and he thinks it a universally valid tactic.


----------



## PZ99 (26 July 2018)

If the EU lowers industrial tariffs that's a win for Trump. I'll give him that one.


----------



## notting (26 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> You do realised that his two sons actually hunt rhinos, elephants etc. right?
> 
> Daddy just revoked the ban on importing such trophies back into the US so the two douche, among other douches, can feel like a real man having those hanging on their wall.
> 
> ...




Exactly! It's a sickening attempt to cheapen what his Beavis and Butthead do in their time off from raping sex slaves.


----------



## moXJO (26 July 2018)

Junior said:


> I love the insinuation of this thread.  If you don't support Trump you must be deranged.



It was similar in the dinosaur video. Its not that those people are stupid. Its as soon as the name "Trump" is uttered,  people ignore the context and focus on hating trump.
Even after that video the discussion here went to bagging Trumps sons (deservedly) rather than why people get so blinded.


----------



## moXJO (26 July 2018)

Trump doesn’t want a war. If anything he has avoided them as best he can. He plays hardball but thats about it.


----------



## overhang (26 July 2018)

I actually thought Trump derangement syndrome was a label given to his staunch supporters.

It seems his supporters resentment towards the liberals shields Trump of any critique (in their eyes) providing his governance is at odds with the left even if it is moving in the fascism direction.


----------



## Junior (26 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> It was similar in the dinosaur video. Its not that those people are stupid. Its as soon as the name "Trump" is uttered,  people ignore the context and focus on hating trump.




Most people don't like arrogance, big ego, or lies, and with Trump it's a relentless stream of those things.


----------



## moXJO (26 July 2018)

Junior said:


> Most people don't like arrogance, big ego, or lies, and with Trump it's a relentless stream of those things.



True but is he just an open book about it? 
Are all politicians basically trump but with a filter? 

We have had wars, double crosses, human rights abuses,  spying and all kinds of issues from previous smooth talking operators. Trump isn't cut from the entrenched political families and his roughness shows.


----------



## notting (26 July 2018)

If only we could get Mark Latham over the line as leader of One Nation.
It's just so entertaining.
And for once a politician is doing exactly what he was voted in to do, which in this case, was shake the baby....


----------



## luutzu (26 July 2018)

BlownAccount said:


> Could it not be argued that OPEC is colluding and fixing prices? Is this not against the rules. Considering fuel is important to the worlds economy is it not in every ones interests that those that control it do not fix prices? Seems reasonable to me. Look at the fines google has been hit with for anti competitive behaviour...




It's against certain country's rules, not OPEC members's national law. I think that was Smurf's point. That no country should dictate what other countries could or could not do.

And if the US or the EU do not like OPEC and its price fixing, that it's anti-competitive etc., then don't buy their oil. 

But Trump is only acting with all these talks about oil being too high, OPEC should do this and that. Well, maybe he doesn't know because he's Trump... but the US got OPEC by the ballz. 

They got a hold of it through Iraq and Saudi Arabia. And I'm sure I missed quite a few other members... judging by how many of them aren't sanctioned.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 July 2018)

luutzu said:


> It's against certain country's rules, not OPEC members's national law. I think that was Smurf's point. That no country should dictate what other countries could or could not do.
> 
> And if the US or the EU do not like OPEC and its price fixing, that it's anti-competitive etc., then don't buy their oil.



Yep that’s my point.

It goes further though and this is the issue I see with Trump and his irrational behaviour.

In 2016 he accused OPEC of selling oil too cheaply and putting US oil prodducers out of business.

OPEC has since raised the price of oil and now Trump’s threatening them that their price collusion is illegal.

Meanwhile Trump is also threatening sanctions on Iran, which exports about 3 million barrels of oil per day, the loss of which would do more to increase prices than anything OPEC has done in recent times.

If I were in charge of OPEC then I’d be scratching my head wondering what, exactly, Trump wants me to do?

Don’t fail to collude because that makes oil too cheap.

Don’t collude because he doesn’t like collusion.

So what do I do? 

The same basic problem of their being no “correct” answer to Trump’s demands seems to affect rather a lot of things and that’s the trouble really. 

Heads I win, tails you lose, either way you’re wrong seems to be the approach.


----------



## luutzu (26 July 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> Yep that’s my point.
> 
> It goes further though and this is the issue I see with Trump and his irrational behaviour.
> 
> ...




Yea I wouldn't want to be in Riyald working for Trump either.

First he told me to raise it, now he said it's too high... Is he being a politician now and a US president then. What should I do... and are those our drones or the American drones circling round my compound?

Yea, sanctioning Iran and Venezuela, taking their oil off the market. Then complain about prices being high.

But then they could break a multi-lateral nuclear peace agreement with Iran then turn around saying Iran doesn't want peace. With a straight, sombre, face too. So speaking out both their azzes is perfectly normal.

Oh yea, Reuters reports how (some organisation may or may not be related to) Trump's re-election campaign is ramping up orders for posters and banners in China before the tariffs goes live.

Money is money I supposed.

The new slogan is "Keep America Great".

Nice tagline... but America couldn't have been that bad if a Trump could turn it around to greatness in under four years though.


----------



## notting (27 July 2018)

*OOOPS                    Collusion*
Hard to duck this.....
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/27/cohen-claims-trump-knew-of-meeting-with-russia-before-it-happened.html

The sick details


----------



## moXJO (27 July 2018)

notting said:


> *OOOPS                    Collusion*
> Hard to duck this.....
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/27/coh...f-meeting-with-russia-before-it-happened.html
> 
> The sick details




If he recorded it- trumps ratfcuked.
He needs hard proof. As cohen is possibly on charges. And it will  look like he is looking for an easy plea deal with mueller. 
He had proof right?


----------



## Tisme (27 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> If he recorded it- trumps ratfcuked.
> He needs hard proof. As cohen is possibly on charges. And it will  look like he is looking for an easy plea deal with mueller.
> He had proof right?




Well the way I look at it is if the Russians are guilty of providing damming Clinton information, that information needs to be aired to the public and her immunity to prosecution repealed.


----------



## bellenuit (27 July 2018)

Tisme said:


> Well the way I look at it is if the Russians are guilty of providing damming Clinton information, that information needs to be aired to the public and her immunity to prosecution repealed.




What immunity to prosecution does she have?


----------



## Darc Knight (28 July 2018)

notting said:


> *OOOPS                    Collusion*
> Hard to duck this.....
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/27/coh...f-meeting-with-russia-before-it-happened.html
> 
> The sick details





Interesting to see how the deranged Trump fan boys explain this 

Trump is a pathological liar.


----------



## basilio (28 July 2018)

There  is neat little video that pulls together the inner Trump circle that was part of the Russian connections and are now either charged or under investigation.


----------



## IFocus (28 July 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Interesting to see how the deranged Trump fan boys explain this
> 
> Trump is a pathological liar.





You have it all wrong Hillary and Hussain the muslim would/were 10 million times.....badder so that makes Trump......errr OK.


----------



## notting (28 July 2018)

*I do like this much about Trump sticking it up  China’s arse* 
by make common cause with the European Union in its ongoing trade war with Washington. While having the most closed market among the major economies of the world, China has sought to present itself as the crusader for free trade and asked the EU to join it in its fight against Trump’s punishing tariffs which if fully implemented is acknowledged as leading to many Chinese companies going bankrupt.

Emerging from a meeting with the European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, Trump said the United States and Europe will work together to “address unfair trading practices,” including “forced technology transfer,” “theft of intellectual property” and “overcapacity”, reported finance.yahoo.com Jul 26. These are longstanding common grievances of the US and Europe towards China.

Neither man mentioned China, but that’s exactly who they were talking about, the report said.

The report noted that virtually all advanced nations had the same complaints about China: It forces foreign firms to turn over key technology as a condition of doing business in the country. It copies or steals trade secrets belonging to foreign firms. And it subsidizes giant companies that produce steel, aluminum and other commodities, allowing them to undercut foreign rivals on price, gobble up market share and drive foreign competition out of business.

While Europe has not been able to do much about it, Trump has tried to address those problems, mostly by slapping tariffs on Chinese imports and insisting that China reduce its trade surplus with the United States.

Most trade experts have been cited a saying that won’t work. But joining with allies and pressuring China together could work, they were said to add. And that is what Trump appears to have set out to do with his meeting with the European Commission president.


----------



## bellenuit (31 July 2018)

Trump's apologists here have been quick to point out, and they are correct, that there has been no proof of Trump collusion with Russia. But after Giuliana's appearance on CNN yesterday, it is quite apparent that there will be an admission of collusion shortly. Remember we have has this progression of admissions over the last year...

_There has been no communication during the campaign to any foreign entity during the campaign. It never happened._

Then

_Meetings yes, but no planned meetings._

Then

_There was a planned meeting, but it was about adoption_.

But always saying...

_But there was no collusion_ (repeated hundreds of times).

Now Giuliani is laying the groundwork and softening the GOP base for the next forced admission, which I am sure will be that there was collusion.

Giuliani is now saying: _I don't even know that is a crime, colluding about Russians

_


----------



## moXJO (31 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Trump's apologists here have been quick to point out, and they are correct, that there has been no proof of Trump collusion with Russia. But after Giuliana's appearance on CNN yesterday, it is quite apparent that there will be an admission of collusion shortly. Remember we have has this progression of admissions over the last year...
> 
> _There has been no communication during the campaign to any foreign entity during the campaign. It never happened._
> 
> ...




The dems will lynch trump on evidence.


----------



## bellenuit (31 July 2018)

moXJO said:


> The dems will lynch trump on evidence.




The GOP will protect him unless they no longer find him useful.


----------



## moXJO (31 July 2018)

bellenuit said:


> The GOP will protect him unless they no longer find him useful.



If they find evidence then he is gone. 
There won't be a lot they can do.


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Like they're already saying, what can they do? But Donald Jnr has tetified under oath that Trump didn't know of a meeting which Cohen may prove otherwise. Donald Jnr on perjury charges?
Then what else has Meuller uncovered? Might be a second investigation - money laundering???

and another half dozen ASF threads


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Like they're already saying, what can they do? But Donald Jnr has tetified under oath that Trump didn't know of a meeting which Cohen may prove otherwise. Donald Jnr on perjury charges?
> Then what else has Meuller uncovered? Might be a second investigation - money laundering???
> 
> and another half dozen ASF threads



Isn't Pence next in line? 
You think you heard whinging now. What till he struts his stuff.


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> If they find evidence then he is gone.
> There won't be a lot they can do.




If he's guilty of breaking the law he needs to be dealt with, if he isn't the witch hunt needs to stop. 

If the Ruskies are onside with Trump and he is given the heave ho, the next Dem president will be in all sorts of turmoil and the US with him/her.


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> If he's guilty of breaking the law he needs to be dealt with, if he isn't the witch hunt needs to stop.




Witch hunt lol. 
32 people charged for Federal Crimes, including Trump's former campaign manager, his campaign adviser,  and his National Security adviser has already pleaded guilty, 
13 Russian citizens and 3 Russian Companies charged.

You having trouble with your Trump fanboy derangement syndrome mate.


----------



## notting (1 August 2018)

Not to mention that now apparently - 
*Trump repeats Giuliani defense: 'Collusion is not a crime'*
So, I am a witch but what's wrong with that?


----------



## SirRumpole (1 August 2018)

notting said:


> Not to mention that now apparently -
> *Trump repeats Giuliani defense: 'Collusion is not a crime'*




Joseph McCarthy would be rolling in his grave.


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Hows Rudy Guilliani's fall from grace.
After 9/11 he was greatest (self proclaimed) Mayor ever, now he's the biggest liar and crocked Lawyer ever and seemingly proud of it.


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Witch hunt lol.
> 32 people charged for Federal Crimes, including Trump's former campaign manager, his campaign adviser,  and his National Security adviser has already pleaded guilty,
> 13 Russian citizens and 3 Russian Companies charged.
> 
> You having trouble with your Trump fanboy derangement syndrome mate.




I don't think I'm deranged, but if you feel the need to throw insults about to prove your theories you have lost your argument.

For the record I don't care. Hard to imagine, but I just don't care if Clinton is innocent, if Trump is guilty, that you think fact comprises of innuendo and conspiracies...I just don't care...honestly. I just saty with the facts and none of you guys acting like fish wives will change that.


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> I don't think I'm deranged, but if you feel the need to throw insults about to prove your theories you have lost your argument.
> 
> For the record I don't care. Hard to imagine, but I just don't care if Clinton is innocent, if Trump is guilty, that you think fact comprises of innuendo and conspiracies...I just don't care...honestly. I just saty with the facts and none of you guys acting like fish wives will change that.




God that made me laugh, every line almost, thanks!


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> God that made me laugh, every line almost, thanks!



 There you go, you realised something.

"So far, four former Trump campaign associates – Michael Flynn, Paul Manafort, Richard Gates and George Papadopoulos – have been charged, though none of the charges are directly related to any misconduct by the president's campaign."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/13/whos-been-charged-by-mueller-in-russia-probe-so-far.html


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> I don't think I'm deranged, but if you feel the need to throw insults about to prove your theories you have lost your argument.
> 
> For the record I don't care. Hard to imagine, but I just don't care if Clinton is innocent, if Trump is guilty, that you think fact comprises of innuendo and conspiracies...I just don't care...honestly. I just saty with the facts and none of you guys acting like fish wives will change that.




You gotta read this @basilio


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> You gotta read this @basilio




Really! You hanging out with ol' mate now hahaha. There's better ways to make friends than forming a denigration cult.


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> There you go, you realised something.
> 
> "So far, four former Trump campaign associates – Michael Flynn, Paul Manafort, Richard Gates and George Papadopoulos – have been charged, though none of the charges are directly related to any misconduct by the president's campaign."
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/13/whos-been-charged-by-mueller-in-russia-probe-so-far.html




How we going with the pit in the stomach?


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Really! You hanging out with ol' mate now hahaha. There's better ways to make friends than forming a denigration cult.




I just want others to share the tears of joy your posts are bringing me. Thanks Mate!


----------



## basilio (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> There you go, you realised something.
> 
> "So far, four former Trump campaign associates – Michael Flynn, Paul Manafort, Richard Gates and George Papadopoulos – have been charged, though none of the charges are directly related to any misconduct by the president's campaign."
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/13/whos-been-charged-by-mueller-in-russia-probe-so-far.html




The source for that information is... Fox News .

Yep one othe most even handed unbiased media sources in the universe.


----------



## notting (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> How we going with the pit in the stomach?



Are you writing your autobiography now?
Maybe Read some mainstream newspapers and watch some News and current affairs programs on TV to break you out of your little internet Putin bubble. He's terrified of Hillary and he's recruited you to help him feel safer. welcome to team -







And has gone to insane lengths to convince you....






See, she's a robot!


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Fess up Tis, you're a Comedian right!


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> I just want others to share the tears of joy your posts are bringing me. Thanks Mate!





No you don't. You actually think you are on to me in the superiority stakes ...but you ain't so you need net friends to bolster that fantasy ...I'm right aren't I...you know it's true ... it's game the outer circle kids always played when they couldn't be with the cool guys.


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

basilio said:


> The source for that information is... Fox News .
> 
> Yep one othe most even handed unbiased media sources in the universe.




Guardian anyone?


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

notting said:


> Are you writing your autobiography now?
> Maybe Read some mainstream newspapers and watch some News and current affairs programs on TV to break you out of your little internet Putin bubble. He's terrified of Hillary and he's recruited you to help him feel safer. welcome to team -
> 
> View attachment 88663
> ...





You too! The place is being over run with conspiracy drones


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Fess up Tis, you're a Comedian right!




You're dropping down the confidence ladder


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> No you don't. You actually think you are on to me in the superiority stakes ...but you ain't so you need net friends to bolster that fantasy ...I'm right aren't I...you know it's true ... it's game the outer circle kids always played when they couldn't be with the cool guys.




Too funny!


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Too funny!




I'm busy looking up wiki for a home remedy for mass hysteria guys. Hang in there ..if it's on wiki it's sure to be correct and you'll be feeling normal in no time.


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

I gotta go wash my Face. My eyes are all teary from laughing. Thanks Tis!


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> I gotta go wash my Face. My eyes are all teary from laughing. Thanks Tis!




 Hot flush from manopause, coz I know you ain't laughing, you're pissed off right?


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/07/...-us-attorneys-have-political-agenda-weissmann

"
Judge Jeanine Pirro reacted to the trial of former Trump adviser Paul Manafort, which is ongoing in federal court in Alexandria, Va.

Sean Hannity asked Pirro about Manafort's tax evasion and bank fraud case, in which he could spend the rest of his life in prison if convicted.

Hannity said gangster "Sammy the Bull" Gravano was offered a sweetheart deal by prosecutors to flip on John Gotti Sr., even though Gravano confessed he was involved in 19 murders.

"How often do they offer deals like this?" Hannity asked.

Pirro said that federal prosecutors often have a political agenda, and that they will often "determine whether or not they want to forgive someone" based on their own personal views.

"They're going after [Manafort] because they want to squeeze him" for damning information on President Trump, she said.

Hannity said a top prosecutor on Mueller's team, Andrew Weissmann, previously saw a major case overturned 9-0 by the Supreme Court, and also saw four finance executives he indicted get freed from prison after a year.

Hannity and Pirro also discussed the Manafort case with former New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik, who said that special counsel Robert Mueller "weaponized" the justice system."


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Hot flush from manopause, coz I know you ain't laughing, you're pissed off right?




Cmon Mate, what happened to Saint Tisme, you know the Man who never insults anyone but always gets insulted. The Man who always sticks to the facts. See post below



Tisme said:


> I don't think I'm deranged, but if you feel the need to throw insults about to prove your theories you have lost your argument.
> 
> For the record I don't care. Hard to imagine, but I just don't care if Clinton is innocent, if Trump is guilty, that you think fact comprises of innuendo and conspiracies...I just don't care...honestly. I just saty with the facts and none of you guys acting like fish wives will change that.


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Cmon Mate, what happened to Saint Tisme, you know the Man who never insults anyone but always gets insulted. The Man who always sticks to the facts. See post below




You had a crack and I gave you a couple of adrenalin geeups. It's no biggy really. 

You'd have to point to were I've insulted you. I'm guessing you haven't read the low grade gutter language your 'ol mate has aimed at me in the not so distant past? Did I care ....nope.

Facts? Well if you can fault me I'll be listening, but remember what the title and intent of the thread is.

If you think people have been imprisoned or found guilty because of election Trump malfeasance you should name them with details of the charges relating to the election so we can see what the press can't see... yet.


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> If you think people have been imprisoned or found guilty because of election Trump malfeasance you should name them with details of the charges relating to the election so we can see what the press can't see... yet.




32 Federal charges laid, including Trump's former campaign chairman, Trump' former campaign adviser and now his former Lawyer, who is willing to testify against Trump..


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

And his former national security advisor has pleaded guilty.


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> 32 Federal charges laid, including Trump's former campaign chairman, Trump' former campaign adviser and now his former Lawyer, who is willing to testify against Trump..




You're not providing the names and the actual charges that relate implicitly to Trump's guilt. Anyone can shake the trees for nuts and end up with leaves.

If Trump is indicted I'll share my popcorn, but until then we just gave another Tony Abbott hate session going on globally.


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> You're not providing the names and the actual charges that relate implicitly to Trump's guilt. Anyone can shake the trees for nuts and end up with leaves.
> 
> If Trump is indicted I'll share my popcorn, but until then we just gave another Tony Abbott hate session going on globally.




You peel the Onion layer by layer Saint Tis


----------



## Tisme (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> You peel the Onion layer by layer Saint Tis





Alright I'll do the homework myself... objectively and factually.


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Alright I'll do the homework myself... objectively and factually.




Mark Latham's site mightn't help mate.

Just Google 32 charges laid, including Trump's former national security advisor pleading guilty mkay!


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Mark Latham's site mightn't help mate.
> 
> Just Google 32 charges laid, including Trump's former national security advisor pleading guilty mkay!



Wasn't those charges from prior to when he even worked for trump?  No ones been done for charges relating to directly working for trump have they?


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Wasn't those charges from prior to when he even worked for trump?  No ones been done for charges relating to directly working for trump have they?




*Table of chargesEdit*
*Accused* *Date first charged* *Charge(s)* *Case status* *Jurisdiction* *Ind.
George Papadopoulos* October 3, 2017 1 count: false statements Pleaded guilty on October 5, 2017[353] D.D.C. [354]
*Rick Gates* October 27, 2017[A] 2 counts: conspiracy against the United States and false statements Pleaded guilty on February 23, 2018[356] D.D.C. [357]
February 22, 2018 18 counts: filing false tax returns(×5), failure to report foreign bank and financial accounts(×4), bank fraud conspiracy(×5), and bank fraud(×4) Charges dismissed without prejudice on February 27, 2018[358] E.D. Va. [359]
*Paul Manafort* October 27, 2017https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Counsel_investigation_(2017–present)#cite_note-362* 7 counts: conspiracy against the United States, conspiracyto launder money, unregistered agent of a foreign principal, false and misleading FARA statements, false statements, obstruction of justice, conspiracyto obstruct justice. Pleaded not guilty on June 15, 2018[361] D.D.C. [362]
February 22, 2018 23 counts: assisting in the preparation of false tax returns (×5), subscribing to false tax returns (×5), filing a false amended return, failure to report foreign bank and financial accounts(×3), bank fraud conspiracy(×5), and bank fraud(×4) Pleaded not guilty on March 8, 2018[363]
Trial to begin on July 31, 2018[364]

E.D. Va. [359]
Michael Flynn November 30, 2017 1 count: false statements Pleaded guilty on December 1, 2017[365] D.D.C. [366]
Richard Pinedo February 2, 2018 1 count: identity fraud Pleaded guilty on February 2, 2018[367] D.D.C. [368]
Alex van der Zwaan February 16, 2018 1 count: false statements Sentenced to 30 days in prison and a $20,000 fine on April 3, 2018[369] 
Deported to the Netherlands June 5, 2018.[370][371] D.D.C. [372]
Dzheykhun Aslanov February 16, 2018 8 counts: conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracyto commit wire fraudand bank fraud, and aggravated identity theft (×6) Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Anna Bogacheva February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Maria Bovda February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Robert Bovda February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Mikhail Burchik February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Mikhail Bystrov February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Concord Catering February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Concord Management and Consulting LLC February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Pleaded not guilty on May 9, 2018[374] D.D.C. [373]
Internet Research Agency LLC February 16, 2018 8 counts: conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracyto commit wire fraudand bank fraud, and aggravated identity theft (×6) Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Irina Kaverzina February 16, 2018 7 counts: conspiracy to defraud the United States, and aggravated identity theft (×6) Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Aleksandra Krylova February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Vadim Podkopaev February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Sergey Polozov February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Yevgeny Prigozhin February 16, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to defraud the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Gleb Vasilchenko February 16, 2018 8 counts: conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracyto commit wire fraudand bank fraud, aggravated identity theft (×6) Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Vladimir Venkov February 16, 2018 7 counts: conspiracy to defraud the United States, and aggravated identity theft (×6) Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [373]
Konstantin Kilimnik June 8, 2018 2 counts: obstruction of justiceand conspiracyto obstruct justice Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [362]
Viktor Netyksho July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Boris Antonov July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Dmitriy Badin July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Ivan Yermakov July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Aleksey Lukashev July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Sergey Morgachev July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Nikolay Kozachek July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Pavel Yershov July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Artem Malyshev July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Aleksandr Osadchuk July 13, 2018 11 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States (×2), aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Aleksey Potemkin July 13, 2018 10 counts: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, aggravated identity theft (×8), and conspiracyto launder money Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Anatoliy Kovalev July 13, 2018 1 count: conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States Outside US jurisdiction D.D.C. [375]
Notes

^ An 8-count indictment issued on October 27, 2017,[355] was
*


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2018)

Not what i asked.


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2018)

Are half of those russian hackers?


----------



## Darc Knight (1 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Are half of those russian hackers?




13 of 32


----------



## moXJO (1 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> 13 of 32



George pap was done on stuff from before trumps time.
And 13 of 32,  you want to count that again


----------



## Tisme (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Wasn't those charges from prior to when he even worked for trump?  No ones been done for charges relating to directly working for trump have they?




That's how I understand it.

Trying to extract confessions under threats and plea deals it seems. Would be a very brave person to rollover on the trumps and russians with false declarations.

I would hazard a guess not one of us would walk away with clean hands if put through that investigation process, even if we were 100% innocent.


----------



## Darc Knight (2 August 2018)

Some of the charges laid include making false testimony, witness tampering and conspiracy against the U.S. That's pretty disgraceful stuff.
And Donald Jnr will soon be charged if Cohen has tapes.


----------



## Tisme (2 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Some of the charges laid include making false testimony, witness tampering and conspiracy against the U.S. That's pretty disgraceful stuff.
> And Donald Jnr will soon be charged if Cohen has tapes.




That's what we need ...actual convictions relating to Donald Trump's actual involvement in election tampering or whatever the latest crime is supposed to be.


----------



## Darc Knight (2 August 2018)

The Investigation was about the perversion of democracy due to hacking - which has charged 13 Ruskies and 3 Russian companies. Trump, his Son, Son in law and his campaign associates have just been caught up in it due to their involvement.

An investigation into the destruction of democracy is a very worthy investigation.


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> An investigation into the destruction of democracy is a very worthy investigation.



Hillary literally ran a private server and deleted and destroyed computer equipment so agents couldn't recover details. We had fbi agents declaring they would "stop trump". And a dossier from a foreign spy that tapped Russian sources on the shoulder.
The truth about trump will come out. I'm not sure the truth about the rest of it will.


----------



## explod (2 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> The Investigation was about the perversion of democracy due to hacking - which has charged 13 Ruskies and 3 Russian companies. Trump, his Son, Son in law and his campaign associates have just been caught up in it due to their involvement.
> 
> An investigation into the destruction of democracy is a very worthy investigation.



I'm certainly not a Trump fan but it's just been normal lobbying, but the system does not want a Trump type so its been branded and bandied.

And what democracy, unless you have millions behind you one cannot even be a candidate.


----------



## Darc Knight (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> The truth about trump will come out. I'm not sure the truth about the rest of it will.




I'm surprised they've gotten this close to Trump. Generally, leaders like organised crime bosses make sure they are pulling the strings from a safe distance and layer of subordinates.


----------



## explod (2 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> I'm surprised they've gotten this close to Trump. Generally, leaders like organised crime bosses make sure they are pulling the strings from a safe distance and layer of subordinates.



I'm not, Trump does not fit the mould.  he's refused to go along with the FBI control system. I'm surprised he's still breathing.

A few years back I read "J Edgar Hoover" Gentry 1991.  Developed and led the FBI, controlled 7 Presidents and got rid of people.

The US democratic, yeh, just party.


----------



## Darc Knight (2 August 2018)

explod said:


> I'm certainly not a Trump fan




Don't sell yourself short lol.



explod said:


> I'm not, Trump does not fit the mould.  he's refused to go along with the FBI control system. I'm surprised he's still breathing.
> 
> A few years back I read "J Edgar Hoover" Gentry 1991.  Developed and led the FBI, controlled 7 Presidents and got rid of people.
> 
> The US democratic, yeh, just party.




Wow. The FBI assasinate a sitting President.
OK!


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> I'm surprised they've gotten this close to Trump. Generally, leaders like organised crime bosses make sure they are pulling the strings from a safe distance and layer of subordinates.



Like hillary did.
Trump is either being setup, or very naive/arrogant thinking he would get away with it. 
We then have guys like Tom steyer donating  $110million to impeach trump. That money is basically a propaganda fund and the fake twitter/ news are already pumping around.
You also have guys like Soros and the koch brothers funding groups. Even in australia we have guys funding the left for things like mma/boxing/kickboxing  training(I trained a few) on top of propaganda via social media. Its a very slick production.


----------



## Darc Knight (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Like hillary did.
> Trump is either being setup, or very naive/arrogant thinking he would get away with it.
> We then have guys like Tom steyer donating  $110million to impeach trump. That money is basically a propaganda fund and the fake twitter/ news are already pumping around.
> You also have guys like Soros and the koch brothers funding groups. Even in australia we have guys funding the left for things like mma/boxing/kickboxing  training(I trained a few) on top of propaganda via social media. Its a very slick production.




Wat?

Just because Hilary or Rolf Harris did something doesn't excuse Trump or anyone else from being accountable.
You're just arguing again.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Like hillary did.




Hillary isn't being investigated for election fraud.

Remember Trump saying he would put her away ? Why hasn't he done it ?


----------



## bellenuit (2 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Hillary isn't being investigated for election fraud.
> 
> Remember Trump saying he would put her away ? Why hasn't he done it ?




Quite simple Sir Rumpole. Because there is no evidence. It is interesting that many of those who excuse Trump on the basis he has not been prosecuted and dismiss everything that has been said against him on that basis, are willing to trot out the slanderous accusations against Hillary emanating from Fox News,  Infowars and the myriad of shock jocks, none of which is based on evidence that survives even the most rudimentary scrutiny.

Hillary has been investigated when there was credible evidence but found to not have committed a crime, just that she acted recklessly.


----------



## Darc Knight (2 August 2018)

Whoda thunk it, the deranged Trump fan boys are trolling. I'm shocked ....  not lol


----------



## Tisme (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Hillary literally ran a private server and deleted and destroyed computer equipment so agents couldn't recover details. We had fbi agents declaring they would "stop trump". And a dossier from a foreign spy that tapped Russian sources on the shoulder.
> The truth about trump will come out. I'm not sure the truth about the rest of it will.





Yes it's interesting on one hand that Hillary shielded herself from hacking by using her own account, but the 13 July indictment against the GRU (Russian Govt) and 12 individuals (Russian military officers = spies) is for trying to hack the DCCC and other Hillary Clinton staffers. They accused of releasing email contents under the guise of "DCLeaks" and "Guccifer 2.0" online to the public....obviously Hillary's private email was OK until she wiped it ... I wonder why she did that.

There is a question whether they successfully achieved a different outcome to the vote.


----------



## wayneL (2 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Whoda thunk it, the deranged Trump fan boys are trolling. I'm shocked ....  not lol



You just may have been hoist by your own petard there bruh.


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Quite simple Sir Rumpole. Because there is no evidence. It is interesting that many of those who excuse Trump on the basis he has not been prosecuted and dismiss everything that has been said against him on that basis, are willing to trot out the slanderous accusations against Hillary emanating from Fox News,  Infowars and the myriad of shock jocks, none of which is based on evidence that survives even the most rudimentary scrutiny.
> 
> Hillary has been investigated when there was credible evidence but found to not have committed a crime, just that she acted recklessly.



There was evidence. She ran a private server then destroyed evidence so fbi couldn't get to the emails.
She was found to be reckless which was at the very least a suspect finding.
I'd say that chapter isn't closed just yet.


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Whoda thunk it, the deranged Trump fan boys are trolling. I'm shocked ....  not lol



Hey dark anymore "evidence" to put up?


----------



## bellenuit (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> There was evidence. She ran a private server then destroyed evidence so fbi couldn't get to the emails.
> She was found to be reckless which was at the very least a suspect finding.
> I'd say that chapter isn't closed just yet.




Yes, that is what I said. When there was evidence she was investigated but found only to have acted recklessly.

But as to Trump's accusations, the reality is far from the truth.

Fact Check:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ubpoena-from-congress/?utm_term=.5515b7f02442


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, that is what I said. When there was evidence she was investigated but found only to have acted recklessly.
> 
> But as to Trump's accusations, the reality is far from the truth.
> 
> ...



Washington post....
You might as well have darc knight and sir rumpole run your facts.
Washington post has only recently gone back to best attempts at being neutral.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-smash-phone-hammer/


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Washington post....
> You might as well have darc knight and sir rumpole run your facts.
> Washington post has only recently gone back to best attempts at being neutral.
> 
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-smash-phone-hammer/



https://www.factcheck.org/2016/09/the-fbi-files-on-clintons-emails/

Bigger time line explanation.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> You might as well have darc knight and sir rumpole run your facts.




Or you.


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Or you.



Pretty sure I posted up details.
Hey rumpy maybe you could post some from the darc,  rumpole and bas well of knowledge.


----------



## bellenuit (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Washington post....
> You might as well have darc knight and sir rumpole run your facts.
> Washington post has only recently gone back to best attempts at being neutral.
> 
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-smash-phone-hammer/




You did read the link you posted, yes?

_On the question of transparency rather than security, none of this should let Clinton off the hook entirely. It’s still not clear whether her efforts to eliminate her data were motivated by the desire to conceal information as her critics imply or dedication to information security — or a bit of both. *But given that Clinton was relying on a handful of aides with limited resources to act as her entire IT infrastructure, it was the right idea from a security standpoint to attempt to destroy the devices rather than letting them sit exposed in a local Goodwill, says Jonathan Zdziarski, an iOS forensics expert and security researcher*. He says the FBI report “shows that [Clinton’s aides] were very serious about wanting to destroy the content, but very inexperienced with how to do it.”_

No crime there.


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2018)

bellenuit said:


> You did read the link you posted, yes?
> 
> _On the question of transparency rather than security, none of this should let Clinton off the hook entirely. It’s still not clear whether her efforts to eliminate her data were motivated by the desire to conceal information as her critics imply or dedication to information security — or a bit of both. *But given that Clinton was relying on a handful of aides with limited resources to act as her entire IT infrastructure, it was the right idea from a security standpoint to attempt to destroy the devices rather than letting them sit exposed in a local Goodwill, says Jonathan Zdziarski, an iOS forensics expert and security researcher*. He says the FBI report “shows that [Clinton’s aides] were very serious about wanting to destroy the content, but very inexperienced with how to do it.”_
> 
> No crime there.



Because it was destroyed. Its the subpoena dates and destruction dates that are murky. 



> The Clinton campaign previously had indicated that her personal emails were deleted _before_ Clinton received a congressional subpoena on March 4, 2015. But the FBI said her emails were deleted “between March 25-31, 2015” — three weeks _after_ the subpoena. The campaign now says it only learned when the emails were deleted from the FBI report.
> Clinton repeatedly had said “everybody in the government with whom I emailed knew that I was using a personal email.” But the FBI said “e-mails from Clinton … did not display her e-mail address,” and only 13 people directly emailed her.




There is plenty of suspect crap.
Comey got his dumb ass fired for a reason.


----------



## bellenuit (2 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Comey got his dumb ass fired for a reason.




Yes and we all know what that reason was.  Trump more or less admitted it to the Russian ambassador and staff when he talk about the Russian investigation been a problem that he had just resolved (or something like that).


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Yes and we all know what that reason was.  Trump more or less admitted it to the Russian ambassador and staff when he talk about the Russian investigation been a problem that he had just resolved (or something like that).



Yeah Rosenstein wanted comey gone and was respected by both sides before any of that gained traction. 
Dems wanted blood and the  peter strzok incident really made the fbi look bad.
Trump said that in an interview. Which was a dumb comment,  but no one knew it would blow up to the proportions it did.
He didn't seem to think it had any credibility at the time. Or that he had covered his tracks well enough.


----------



## Tisme (2 August 2018)

bellenuit said:


> Yes and we all know what that reason was.  Trump more or less admitted it to the Russian ambassador and staff when he talk about the Russian investigation been a problem that he had just resolved (or something like that).




what did he admit? The guy's like Clive Palmer and Tony Abbott, no one knows what he means when he blathers.


----------



## Darc Knight (3 August 2018)

Outta the Three Stooges, Mo was the angry one right?


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Outta the Three Stooges, Mo was the angry one right?



It took you that long to come up with that?  Weak.....
I expect a bit more effort from your trolling. Its like you don’t even care anymore.


----------



## Darc Knight (3 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> It took you that long to come up with that?  Weak.....
> I expect a bit more effort from your trolling. Its like you don’t even care anymore.




I can't compete with yours. I humbly bow to your superiority in the field.

The second amendment, your thoughts Mo.


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> The second amendment, your thoughts Mo.



I prefer mine with chips and salad. And by "salad" I mean bacon on steak.

2nd ammendment is the same as all freedom's. People are too stupid or greedy to handle it and wreck it for those that can.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 August 2018)

Reading about the Q followers, are they deranged or what?


----------



## Darc Knight (4 August 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Reading about the Q followers, are they deranged or what?




That's interesting. Throughout Trump's career he was known for making leaks to the media that served his purposes, whether those leaks were true or not. Remember at the start of Trump's Presidency there were leaks that actually helped his popularity - it was a classic Trump strategy.
Wonder if this "Q" is working out of Trump Tower or the Kremlin lol


----------



## moXJO (4 August 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Reading about the Q followers, are they deranged or what?



They have been around in australia for a while.


----------



## Tisme (4 August 2018)

Welcome comrades:

https://8ch.net/qresearch/welcome.html


----------



## basilio (4 August 2018)

Talking about a Deranged Trump. On the warpath inciting hatred at the "horrible,horendous people" who write " fake, fake disgusting news "about him.

Every other time we have heard leaders talk about "Enemies of the people" it hasn't ended well.

* 'Disgusting news': Donald Trump whips up crowd anger as he vilifies media *
President was campaigning for Senate candidate but continued his increasingly alarming verbal vendetta

Adam Gabbatt in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania

 @adamgabbatt 
Fri 3 Aug 2018 07.31 BST   First published on Fri 3 Aug 2018 03.13 BST

*Shares*
11k



'Fake, fake, disgusting news': Trump launches new broadside against media - video
Donald Trump ramped up his attack on the media on Thursday night, criticizing the press as “fake, fake, disgusting news” and describing journalists in attendance as “horrible, horrendous people”, despite UN experts warning earlier in the day that his actions were putting journalists at risk.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/aug/03/trump-whips-up-crowd-anger-as-he-vilifies-media


----------



## explod (4 August 2018)

And really, who of us really knows the inside of it all.

There is so much money on a world scale controlling us all for its own ends, that's making money, that we do not and cannot know.

Just become passive and party while you can.


----------



## wayneL (5 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Talking about a Deranged Trump. On the warpath inciting hatred at the "horrible,horendous people" who write " fake, fake disgusting news "about him.
> 
> Every other time we have heard leaders talk about "Enemies of the people" it hasn't ended well.
> 
> ...



Anyone who believes what the msm say word for a word is either, just exceedingly  stupid, or supports that agenda (therefore exceedingly stupid)


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Talking about a Deranged Trump. On the warpath inciting hatred at the "horrible,horendous people" who write " fake, fake disgusting news "about him.
> 
> Every other time we have heard leaders talk about "Enemies of the people" it hasn't ended well.
> 
> ...



Did you just quote channel 9?

Media needed a good blast. They often get the story wrong and print utter sht at times.
Trump deserves to be called out with factual articles. There is absolutely no need to make up stories, or put a biased slant on them. Just tell the facts. There is plenty of ammo.




> 1. Aug. 2016-Nov. 2016:
> 
> The New York Post published modeling photos of Trump’s wife Melania and reported they were taken in 1995. Various news outlets relied on that date to imply that Melania—an immigrant—had violated her visa status. But the media got the date wrong. Politico was among the news agencies that later issued a photo date correction.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tisme (5 August 2018)

wayneL said:


> Anyone who believes what the msm say word for a word is either, just exceedingly  stupid, or supports that agenda (therefore exceedingly stupid)




You can see the "disgusting" display here:


----------



## CanOz (5 August 2018)

Msm.....media bias chart


----------



## Darc Knight (5 August 2018)

Are the deranged Trump fan boys trying to control social media using the same tactics that Trump himself uses ie lie, deny, discredit etc.
Notice the mass hysteria when anyone says anything bad about Trump.

Wonder how many of them are Q nuts!


----------



## basilio (5 August 2018)

How xxxxing deranged is Donald Trump anyway ?  He gets up in his favourite place - a public rally where he can say how wonderful he is and decides to gaslight the whole xxxxing world by saying that he is fact was early when seeing the Queen on the Royal Visit when a few billion people watched as the Queen waited and waited and the Trump rolled up .

And then of course managed to meander his way in front of the Queen.

And yet this deranged creature pours xhit  on the Press for "fake news" when the facts are completely clear and public. Why not just see what actually happened instead of accepting this liars BS ?

And he in turn is believed by his sun struck followers. Just crazy..


----------



## basilio (5 August 2018)

But while we are talking about the Queen and protocol the clip from her entrance into the 2012 Olympic  Games was pretty cool.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2018)

CanOz said:


> View attachment 88730
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cnn could probably move further left.


Darc Knight said:


> Are the deranged Trump fan boys trying to control social media using the same tactics that Trump himself uses ie lie, deny, discredit etc.
> Notice the mass hysteria when anyone says anything bad about Trump.
> 
> Wonder how many of them are Q nuts!



No, just keeping leftists lies in check.
There is enough truthful stuff on trump to smear him with. You don't need to make stories up. Hence the "trump derangement". 
Its amusing how guys twist with so much hatred.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 August 2018)

CanOz said:


> Msm.....media bias chart



Interesting and would be interesting if there was a chart like that for Australia too.


----------



## Darc Knight (5 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> There is enough truthful stuff on trump to smear him with.




Come to the light side Mo!

I just can't wait for Donald Jnr to be charged with perjury, bet he's done a lot worse. Is it Cohen who claims Trump himself helped Donald Jnr make up the B.S. story that may get Jnr charged?


----------



## basilio (5 August 2018)

Found an exceptionally good analysis of Donald Trumps treatment of the Press.

The surprise ? Came from Fox News. Give it its due.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Come to the light side Mo!
> 
> I just can't wait for Donald Jnr to be charged with perjury, bet he's done a lot worse. Is it Cohen who claims Trump himself helped Donald Jnr make up the B.S. story that may get Jnr charged?




I'm a kiwi, we bang the sheep,  not get down on all fours and bleat like one.
I prefer to question supposed mainstream wisdom.



If dems swing either house then its goodbye Trumpy. They will subpoena his arse on what he had for breakfast and lump all family and associates as well. Imo you won't have to wait long.
Dems funding is about $440 million to Gop $200 something million. 
With funding like that in the midterms I don't see how they wouldn't win.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2018)

It wouldn't surprise me if investigations into his dependencies on Russian financiers for his businesses are going on right now.

Why else would he be so friendly to Putin and so much of an a.hole to allies ?

Follow the money and you usually find the truth.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if investigations into his dependencies on Russian financiers for his businesses are going on right now.
> 
> Why else would he be so friendly to Putin and so much of an a.hole to allies ?
> 
> Follow the money and you usually find the truth.



If Dems swing majority they can get all trumps tax records and lots of other juicy stuff. There will be a lot of sweating reps if the numbers don't look good.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Found an exceptionally good analysis of Donald Trumps treatment of the Press.
> 
> The surprise ? Came from Fox News. Give it its due.




Rip James Rosen


----------



## basilio (5 August 2018)

I reckon this Shep guy has some cojones.  Not to mention journalistic integrity. Check out this systematic takedown of Sean Hannity.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2018)

basilio said:


> I reckon this Shep guy has some cojones.  Not to mention journalistic integrity. Check out this systematic takedown of Sean Hannity.




I think he is gay as well. Gotta have stones to be on fox.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Found an exceptionally good analysis of Donald Trumps treatment of the Press.
> 
> The surprise ? Came from Fox News. Give it its due.




I disagree on a couple of points with this guy. Any reporter that prints articles that deal in lies is in fact an "enemy" of the people. Whether its state sponsored or biased reporting. And its been around for a while. A free press should report the facts. Not play games, or entrap people as their next headline.

People should be informed on the facts of a story. Not be led with half truths. And thats either side of the political spectrum.
A free press that is out of control should be called out. As soon as Trump mentioned "fake news" a lot of them pulled their heads in and tried to regain the integrity they lost over the years.

I've had a few in the family successfully sue the media for defamation. Large sums that the lawyers ended up with.
They are so far off with a lot of their stories that it should be classed as fiction.


----------



## basilio (5 August 2018)

You certainly conflate many issues there moXjo.

Can/does the  media cause many people heartbreak and distress with either bad reporting, malicious reporting or just sensationalist rubbish? Absolutely. And unfortunately the average Joe is ill equipped to deal with it.

But the issue of "fake news" and completely untrue political assissinations ? Truly it is the rabid right wing Press that has had a field day here.

How many years of fanning vicious rubbish about President Obamas legitimacy?
How many scores of vile lies constructed around the Clintons? The buried bodies ? The pedophiles ?
In the last election the constructed "fake news" was overwhelmingly against the Democrats. Or have you forgotten all that.

As for Donald Trump.  He has overwhelmed everyone with a relentless barrage of untruths since God-knows-when. It's not as if he started last year or in the last decade.  *ANY *look at his business dealings exposes a process of lying and abuse as a business tool.  He has just charged into the Presidency and taken his lying ways with him.

The details of his falsehood? Actually a number of organisations have kept a record.  It's not hard to find multiple lists with various degrees of detail. 

I suppose the latest one that I find a real mind bender is his  calling out of the Press for "Fake News" when they noted he was about 15 minutes late to see the Queen in England. Now this was all in public.  The Queen is waiting, waiting.. We can be absolutely certain that  everyone was given the right time to turn up... but Donald Trump was late.

Ok .  Xhit happens.  But now he thunders against the Press for saying he was late* by claiming that he was early and the Queen kept him waiting. *Millions and Millions of people were watching this recorded  event and we all know who turned up 15 minutes late. And yet this sociopath rails against the Press for "Fake news" because they didn't make up the right story to suit his worship. Like how crazy is this ?

In this instance I really wish the Palace and the British government would issue a formal clarification over the event and present it to the American ambassador to call out this rubbish. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ng-claims-in-497-days/?utm_term=.b9f350f1439a
https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/
https://www.newyorker.com/news/lett...mps-escalating-war-on-the-truth-is-on-purpose


----------



## basilio (5 August 2018)

Finally the facts  about Donald Trump and the Queen.

*Trump-Queen visit: Was the US president late?*
By Reality Check team BBC News


*Claim: *President Trump says he was not late for the Queen when they met in July. He says he was actually early.

*Reality Check verdict: *The president arrived and met the Queen on time, according to the official schedule. However, he didn't arrive 15 minutes early as he claims.

President Donald Trump at a rally in Pennsylvania denied that he was late for the Queen, calling the story "disgusting".

"So here was the story by the fake news: the president was 15 minutes late for the Queen - wrong," he said.

In fact, said the president, he was early.

"I was about 15 minutes early and I'm waiting with my wife and that's fine - hey, it's the Queen, right?"

So what actually happened?

Let's go back to 13 July for the president's visit to Windsor Castle.

From the live BBC television pictures on the day we can see that as the time approaches 17:00, the Queen is standing alone on the dais in the castle quadrangle.

Some journalists on Twitter pointed out that the Queen had been waiting there for some time and some said that she had even been checking her watch.
So had the Queen been kept waiting by the US president?

The answer is no - according to the official schedule. The president arrived almost exactly on time.

The TV pictures show that President Trump stepped out of the car at 17:01, and greets the Queen shortly afterwards (he was due to enter the quadrangle at 17:00).

So he was on time, but had he had to wait? Was he "15 minutes early", as he claimed?

From the TV footage we know President Trump's helicopter landed in the castle grounds at about 16:50, which was on schedule.

Let's assume it took President Trump and the First Lady five minutes to unstrap themselves from their seats, make their way down the steps and get into their car.

Then another five minutes to travel the approximately 500m from the landing site to the dais where the Queen was waiting (the vehicle can be seen travelling at walking speed - say about 4mph ).

That takes us to 17:00 - almost the exact time of the arrival of the presidential vehicle at the Queen's dais. So not enough time for 15 minutes of waiting time to have elapsed.

PS I was quite wrong in my previous post.. Donald Trump was not that late at all (but he certainly wasn't early..It looks like the Queen was early and Donald about 1 minute late.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2018)

basilio said:


> You certainly conflate many issues there moXjo.
> 
> Can/does the  media cause many people heartbreak and distress with either bad reporting, malicious reporting or just sensationalist rubbish? Absolutely. And unfortunately the average Joe is ill equipped to deal with it.
> 
> ...



I wasn't just calling out left news.


----------



## basilio (5 August 2018)

I have to reflect on the last two posts.

In the first instance it looked as if Donald Trump was late because the Queen was there, waiting and seemingly for "some time" .(I'm not sure if anyone can say how long she was in position)

The Donald Trump turns up and, from one perspective,he seems to have been late.

Now it seems clear that in fact he was on time after all.

So why did Donald Trump have to make up a story that he in fact was 15 minutes early and the Queen kept him waiting? What would have been wrong with just pointing out that he was on time, the Queen was a few minutes early and* he wished the Press had checked out the official timetable? *

On the big picture does this materially alter the other 4000 plus examples of Donald Trump just making up sxxx to suit himself? Hardly. After all he fabricated his "I was early" line when it clearly  was not the case.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2018)

basilio said:


> PS I was quite wrong in my previous post.. Donald Trump was not that late at all (but he certainly wasn't early..It looks like the Queen was early and Donald about 1 minute late.




Perfect example of where we are at.
" He was 15 mins late"
"Nah I was 15 mins early"

Truth as best we know.... He was about on time.


----------



## Tisme (6 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Finally the facts  about Donald Trump and the Queen.
> 
> *Trump-Queen visit: Was the US president late?*
> By Reality Check team BBC News
> ...






Good to see the big resources of BBC being employed for such important stuff.


----------



## Tisme (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Perfect example of where we are at.
> " He was 15 mins late"
> "Nah I was 15 mins early"
> 
> Truth as best we know.... He was about on time.




The helo would be locked in with air traffic control, by his own secretaries, etc. The story is lame and shows how boring tit people who follow and delight at this kind of rubbish have boring tit lives.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

basilio said:


> .As for Donald Trump.  He has overwhelmed everyone with a relentless barrage of untruths since God-knows-when. It's not as if he started last year or in the last decade.  *ANY *look at his business dealings exposes a process of lying and abuse as a business tool.  He has just charged into the Presidency and taken his lying ways with him.




That seems to some up Trump. He uses every trick in the book and is relentless about it. If he can't win he'll just try to wear you down. Most Sociopaths are like that.
I'd say Trump is still a Sociopath. Age hasn't mellowed him. Time will tell.


----------



## wayneL (6 August 2018)

Sociopaths aren't obviously sociopathic. They are more covert... 

...like Obama.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2018)

wayneL said:


> Sociopaths aren't obviously sociopathic. They are more covert...
> 
> ...like Obama.




Cheap shots again. Justify your allegation that Obama is a sociopath.


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Cheap shots again. Justify your allegation that Obama is a sociopath.



His drone bombing program. 
Attempts to get at Syria. 
Breaking international laws and basically invading Pakistan to get Osama. Then taking full credit for it.
He took luxury holidays at massive expense while the rest of the country were doing it tough. 
Lack of emotion.
Smooth operator.
Makes a great first impression.
Serial actor that could instantly switch off after speech.
Benghazi.
Pity party he threw when he couldn't get his way.
At the high end of US politics you would be all classed as something.

Trump wouldn't be classed as one. He rants and raves and shows too many range of emotions. Habitual liar, arrogant and possibly something else. But he doesn't really fit the bill. He is too much of a friken mess.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> His drone bombing program.




Precision attacks resulting in less casualties overall.

Has Trump stopped them ?


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Precision attacks resulting in less casualties overall.
> 
> Has Trump stopped them ?



Like bombing weddings..... precisely.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> .
> Trum wouldn't be classed as one. He rants and raves and shows too many range of emotions. Habitual liar, arrogant and possibly something else. But he doesn't really fit the bill. He is too much of a friken mess.




The constant breaking of laws while building his Business. The serial lying to promote his Business. The not paying Contractors. Raping his ex-wife. The Art of the Deal scam. His open vengefulness on anyone who crosses him. The list is long.
You really show your bias and lack of understanding at times.Do you admire Trump, seek to emulate him Mo?


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Like bombing weddings..... precisely.




So Obama personally ordered that did he ?

So George Bush is also a sociopath because he was responsible for this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-us-army-iraq-attack


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> The constant breaking of laws while building his Business. The serial lying to promote his Business. The not paying Contractors. Raping his ex-wife. The Art of the Deal scam. His open vengefulness on anyone who crosses him. The list is long.
> You really show your bias and lack of understanding at times.Do you admire Trump, seek to emulate him Mo?



No he is too emotional to be one. He never filters either.


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> So Obama personally ordered that did he ?
> 
> So George Bush is also a sociopath because he was responsible for this.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-us-army-iraq-attack



Id say they all are but truth is labels dont fit or are suit to fit. The only one I really thought was close was hillary. Especially after the Clinton affair and her attacks on "miss cuban". She did whatever it took to ladder climb.
Obama has more traits in common then trump.
Trump is more schizophrenic verbal diarrhea personified.
 Trump has attempted diplomatic avenues rather than drop bombs. I'm sorry but he doesn't fit the bill imo.
There are plenty of nutcase definitions that would fit better


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

No point trying to convince Trump fan boys, but for others:
_
"The DSM 5 is used to diagnose a sociopath by a psychologist/psychiatrist or other licensed mental health care professional. The criteria for the proper diagnosis of a sociopath is found in the criteria for antisocial personality disorder ...
The following criteria is listed in the DSM 5 for antisocial personality disorder:_

_Persistent patterns of disregard and violation of the rights of others, present since the age of 15 and consisting of at least three of the following resulting in hurting, mistreating, and/or stealing from someone:_
_Disrespect and failure to conform to lawful behavior resulting in repeated arrests._
_Persistent deceitfulness, using aliases, and lying to con others for personal gain._
_Impulsive and unable to plan._
_Easily irritated, aggressive and prone to repeated physical altercations and assaults._
_Reckless, disregarding the safety of others and one's self._
_Persistently irresponsible, inability to maintain consistent work behavior and/or honor financial obligations._
_Indifferent rationalization without remorse."_
https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/sociopathy/dsm-5-sociopath-diagnostic-definitions-and-symptoms/

Now, watch this, remember Trump is very litigious. You don't get dozens of people going on camera making such claims unless they knew they had proof


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2018)

> Trump has attempted diplomatic avenues rather than drop bombs. I'm sorry but he doesn't fit the bill imo.
> There are plenty of nutcase definitions that would fit better




I have to disagree. The number of people he has fired or have quit because they refuse to be yes-men indicates that Trump only listens to himself and has scant regards for the knowledge and skills of others who have been in government for much longer than him. The family split program was his idea and indicated lack of empathy for others, it was only reversed because Melania didn't like it.

He comes much closer to sociopath than most others in that position in recent memory.


----------



## Tisme (6 August 2018)

*Leaders Are More Likely To Be Sociopaths*

https://bigthink.com/videos/leaders-are-more-likely-to-be-sociopaths


----------



## Tisme (6 August 2018)

Jesus doesn't fair well in the pathic stakes:








https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/of-psychopaths-and-presidential-candidates/


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> *Leaders Are More Likely To Be Sociopaths*
> 
> https://bigthink.com/videos/leaders-are-more-likely-to-be-sociopaths




Haven't read the link but agree with the title. 


Trump has always had an attitude of being the biggest Lion in the jungle. He exhibits the same personality traits as some of the worst criminals I've unfortunately met.


----------



## wayneL (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Cheap shots again. Justify your allegation that Obama is a sociopath.



Yeah I was wrong,  he shows more psychopathic tendencies,  rather than sociopathic.


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Like bombing weddings..... precisely.




Or "signature" droning. You know, a few Arabs hanging around in the street looking to plan something up. Or a wedding where too many of them got together.


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Precision attacks resulting in less casualties overall.
> 
> Has Trump stopped them ?




It's against International Law to drone anyone in a foreign country. You can't do extra-judicial killing. That's a war crime.

Bush Jr. just lock and torture suspects. Obama is classier and doesn't like to "torture some folks"... so he drone them. No evidence. No mess. Well, big mess where it strikes, but a double tap should clear it up... 

He also sue and prosecute Whistle Blower more than any US president. So much for a Constitutional Scholar. What a douche. 

He hangs out with the likes of Branson etc., then go to South Africa, gave a speech about wealth inequality. How people are doing it tough. Yah, they might do better if you didn't spent all the money bailing out your Wall St friends and kick the poor out of their homes. Or increase 2 wars to 8.


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> So Obama personally ordered that did he ?
> 
> So George Bush is also a sociopath because he was responsible for this.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-us-army-iraq-attack




He signed off on it. He got a "kill list" and sign off on each drone strike every Tuesday.

Trump just doesn't bothered, he hand it over to the general to decide.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> Or "signature" droning. You know, a few Arabs hanging around in the street looking to plan something up. Or a wedding where too many of them got together.




We're talking bombing Terrorists, or suspected Terrorists right?


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

I don't respect Trump, but if he personally controlled a Drone to eliminate some Terrorists I'd say "good on ya Trump!". 
Some of you Trump fan boys are pretty biased.


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> We're talking bombing Terrorists, or suspected Terrorists right?




Or just an ordinary Arab minding his own business. 

You heard of a case where there's this Arab school teacher in a Pakistani village being surrounded by shorter Parkistani? 

A drone take him and everyone at that meeting.

Turns out he's not an Arab. Just a school teacher. Turns out those around him aren't shorter Pakistani or Afghani Taliban, but school children. 

Opps. It's a signature strike, what can you do. They look really bad being preached to by a tall Arab.



You can't just define someone a terrorist then sign off on taking him, and everyone near him, out. That's a war crime. Clear and simple.

And you can't have everyone liking you either. But that doesn't matter. As long as some one might one day pose a threat, they're taken out. 

Imagine if other countries were to do that. Or do it on our soil. Say China or Russia decided that certain citizens of ours poses a threat to their national security. Would we be cool with them dropping a couple on the person? 

How about Iran taking out Guiliani because the guy literally threaten regime change, political sabotage and marching into Tehran "soon". 

Guiliani isn't just some idiot. He's the appointed lawyer to the US president. His nonsense have some weight. 

But of course if you're the good guy, you get to do stuff and it's all good.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> He signed off on it. He got a "kill list" and sign off on each drone strike every Tuesday.
> 
> Trump just doesn't bothered, he hand it over to the general to decide.




OK, so Obama took personal responsibility. That's much less sociopathic than leaving it to someone else.


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, so Obama took personal responsibility. That's much less sociopathic than leaving it to someone else.




No it's not.

What responsibility did he take? Was he ever tried in the International Court? Did he ever have to answer to anyone?

That's not taking responsibility anymore than any "leader" giving a speech about any scandal. Yea, yea, we all know my underlings did those nasty stuff, but seeing how I'm the head honcho I "take full responsibility. It is my fault (I should have been better but you know who I meant right?)." 

OK. let's break for lunch and a wind surf.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2018)

Yet another Trump lie.

His son's meeting with Russians was first about "adoptions", now it's about getting dirt on Hilary.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-06/trump-admits-his-son-met-with-russians-in-2016/10076882


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> What responsibility did he take? Was he ever tried in the International Court? Did he ever have to answer to anyone?




There was a war on. People get killed in wars. Was Truman prosecuted over Hiroshima ?

If Obama personally ordered targets he must have known that they could be reviewed later. If Trump just says "do what you like boys, I'll deny all knowledge", that is just hypocrisy and psychopathy.


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> There was a war on. People get killed in wars. Was Truman prosecuted over Hiroshima ?
> 
> If Obama personally ordered targets he must have known that they could be reviewed later. If Trump just says "do what you like boys, I'll deny all knowledge", that is just hypocrisy and psychopathy.




Truman should have been tried. Those two nukes were totally unnecessary to win the war at that stage. Just ask any objective historian, they'll tell you.

Or in the word of Gore Vidal... Truman did it "to show off". Show off to Stalin and the godless commies who's the boss now. 

But those nukes, according to some (American) historian whose name I can't recall now... were simply doing what the US did on hundreds of missions over Japan before them. They just did it with 1 bomb instead of with a fleet of B52s and their fire bombs. 

Yes, a hundred or so cities just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki [?] were burnt to the ground, one or two per night, before the two big ones. 

We all know Imperial Japan were terrible, but come on man. They were on their knees, you don't need to destroy their plebs like that.


Back to Obama, the Nobel Peace winner...

A lot of the drone strikes are in countries the US have not declared war on. Places like Pakistan, which I thought was an ally. There's Yemen, all over Africa. I don't remember the US declaring war on any African countries, except maybe Libya when Hilary crackle about "we" come, we saw, he die. 

He signed off because he was a bit stupid. Not because he want to be accountable. 

Guess what happen to those who leaks info on war crimes under his watch? They get locked up for crime against the state. 

But he's getting a very nice presidential centre though. No, not a presidential library, that's for poor president. It's an entire Centre, complete with gentrified neighbours and office towers. And a couple gallery devoted to his poor single-parent childhood struggling to make ends meet... and definitely a vegie patch so kids can eat healthy. 

I actually don't mind the likes of Bush Jr. or Trump. They were brought up in wealth. They don't know any better, are just acting their class. 

For the likes of Billy Clinton and Barry... they're way worst if you ask me.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2018)

> For the likes of Billy Clinton and Barry... they're way worst if you ask me.




Class traitors ?

So your a Trump voter then ?


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> Truman should have been tried. Those two nukes were totally unnecessary to win the war at that stage. Just ask any objective historian, they'll tell you.
> 
> Or in the word of Gore Vidal... Truman did it "to show off". Show off to Stalin and the godless commies who's the boss now.
> 
> ...




The reason the Allies used the A Bomb during WW2 was because they had to invade Japan to stop them. Invading Japan was seen as being too horrific a battle, so they chose the A Bombs.

When Stalin was informed of the plan, his reaction was that he already knew what the Yanks had.

Very sad story, but if the Allies had to invade Japan, they would've faced every Japanese Man Woman and Child. Banzai and all that.


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> The reason the Allies used the A Bomb during WW2 was because they had to invade Japan to stop them. Invading Japan was seen as being too horrific a battle, so they chose the A Bombs.
> 
> When Stalin was informed of the plan, his reaction was that he already knew what the Yanks had.
> 
> Very sad story, but if the Allies had to invade Japan, they would've faced every Japanese Man Woman and Child. Banzai and all that.



Russia about to invade had nothing to do with it?


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Class traitors ?
> 
> So your a Trump voter then ?




I didn't realize you instantly had to vote trump for disliking the other two.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Russia about to invade had nothing to do with it?




Russia about to invade who, Japan?

No, the Siberian forces were moved to the Western front. That's what saved Russia from the Nazis.

Do you just post sheet to argue or something. It certainly looks rhat way.


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> No point trying to convince Trump fan boys, but for others:
> _
> "The DSM 5 is used to diagnose a sociopath by a psychologist/psychiatrist or other licensed mental health care professional. The criteria for the proper diagnosis of a sociopath is found in the criteria for antisocial personality disorder ...
> The following criteria is listed in the DSM 5 for antisocial personality disorder:_
> ...




Forum psychology. The greatest of all in antisocial personality disorder detection.
Personally I think Bill shorten has a booger eating disorder from the he ate that sausage sandwich. Time will tell.

Personally I think if trump started more wars he might be up to Obama's standard. Or if trump bumped heads with putin like Obama did.
But Trump’s making russian friends and North Korean ones. Just look at all the investigations into his new friends.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

You're more like Trump than you care to admit Mo.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

Russia, the U.S. and Britian were allies, they had many planning meetings. Russia knew what the Yanks had planned.

The relationship between Russia and the U.S. soured after the War.


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Russia about to invade who, Japan?
> 
> No, the Siberian forces were moved to the Western front. That's what saved Russia from the Nazis.
> 
> Do you just post sheet to argue or something. It certainly looks rhat way.



Russia never invaded Manchuria and Sakhalin ? 
Wait what? ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 August 2018)

It says rather a lot that the only argument in favour of Trump involves pointing out flaws in others rather than good points with Trump.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Russia never invaded Manchuria and Sakhalin ?
> Wait what? ?




Russia, the U.S. and Britian were all in on the planning. They had numerous meetings. Stalin knew.
No one wanted to invade Japan, they knew the cost.


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> good points with Trump.



You want to kick that one off smurf


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Russia, the U.S. and Britian were all in on the planning. They had numerous meetings. Stalin knew.
> No one wanted to invade Japan, they knew the cost.



So the plans on Hokkaido were all fiction? 
Tell me moreeeeeee!!!!!!!


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> So the plans on Hokkaido were all fiction?
> Tell me moreeeeeee!!!!!!!




You're trying to emulate Trump hey?
 Just reading Stalin's interpretator saying that Stalin said he hoped the Yanks would use the A Bomb, in respons to Truman telling him of the plan.


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> You're trying to emulate Trump hey?
> Just reading Stalin's interpretator saying that Stalin said he hoped the Yanks would use the A Bomb, in respons to Truman telling him of the plan.



I like how japan was shared among friends,  because you know they were all working together.


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> I like how japan was shared among friends,  because you know they were all working together.



Hows that russian army base in Japan going
I liked the friendly pie eating contests between east and west Germany after the war as well.


----------



## Tisme (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Russia about to invade who, Japan?
> 
> No, the Siberian forces were moved to the Western front. That's what saved Russia from the Nazis.
> 
> Do you just post sheet to argue or something. It certainly looks rhat way.




The Russians declaring war on Japan two days after Hiroshima, mortified the Japs, because they thought Russia would help negotiate a truce on their behalf. The second bomb nailed the surrender.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> I like how japan was shared among friends,  because you know they were all working together.




Still trolling are you Mo.

"Yalta, a seaside resort on Russia's Black Sea Crimean coast, was the scene of the second and last wartime conference between the 'Big Three' Allied war leaders, Winston Churchill, Franklin D Roosevelt and Joseph Stalin. It was held between 4 and 11 February 1945 and was designed to decide on the final strategy of the war against Germany and Japan and settle the post-war future of Europe."

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/how-...nd-stalin-planned-to-end-the-second-world-war


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

The bomb didn't stop the war.


Darc Knight said:


> Still trolling are you Mo.
> 
> "Yalta, a seaside resort on Russia's Black Sea Crimean coast, was the scene of the second and last wartime conference between the 'Big Three' Allied war leaders, Winston Churchill, Franklin D Roosevelt and Joseph Stalin. It was held between 4 and 11 February 1945 and was designed to decide on the final strategy of the war against Germany and Japan and settle the post-war future of Europe."
> 
> https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/how-...nd-stalin-planned-to-end-the-second-world-war



Um way to change the subject. Don't back away from your original comments.

It was all about land grabs in the end and the US negotiations won out before the Russians got to far in and got a share.

The bomb didn't stop the war. The Russians on the threat of a second front did. 
The bomb was the saving excuse for Japan.  "Did you see their awesome power despite 80% of our cities already being wiped out by conventional bombing"


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> The reason the Allies used the A Bomb during WW2 was because they had to invade Japan to stop them. Invading Japan was seen as being too horrific a battle, so they chose the A Bombs.
> 
> When Stalin was informed of the plan, his reaction was that he already knew what the Yanks had.
> 
> Very sad story, but if the Allies had to invade Japan, they would've faced every Japanese Man Woman and Child. Banzai and all that.




That's the version of history you write after you won the war. 

We've discussed here before. The actual reason behind it has nothing to do with taking over Japan, street by street.

I mean, they didn't even try to take it street by street before the bombs - i.e. they did fire bomb some 100 cities, killing some 100,000 civilians in each. So it's not like the A Bomb was the last best hope before GIs were sent in to clean up block by block.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> The bomb didn't stop the war.
> 
> Um way to change the subject. Don't back away from your original comments.
> 
> ...




You claimed Russia, the U.S. and Britian weren't working together.

Secondly, Japan unreservedly surendered after the second Bomb.

You're a troll, bit like Trump on Twitter. You admire him don't you.


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Class traitors ?
> 
> So your a Trump voter then ?




It's not "class traitors" or class warfare.

What is the purpose of governance? Particularly in a democracy? To help and serve the masses, yes?

For guys born with a few silver spoons up theirs, like Trump or Bush Jr.... They've always known wealth and see how great the country is if rich people like themselves rule. You know, being job creators etc.

That and they not knowing the suffering of the poor and downtrodden, they can be excused for not knowing or gives a damn about it. You can't expect too much of a person.

But for guys like Obama and Clinton. They grew up poor. From working, struggling family. They lived and experienced poverty; they got scholarships. I'm sure they also worked hard and are very smart. But if they have any brain at all they do appreciate the luck and the opportunity they were given. etc. etc.

For them to then get into power, into a position where with the stroke of a pen they could lift literally hundreds of millions out of poverty, give those greater opportunities. Did they do it? They don't give a damn.

It might be understandable if they just don't care for their history, where they came from. That's fine too.

But to then use that story as some sort of motivation for higher office. I'm doing this for my momma; I'm running to fight for the working class, the poor because I was one of them.... what total bs.

How Obama telling the world his mother was on her deathbed but are fighting the insurance company for health coverage blah blah. So of course he's going to fight for healthcare for all. Did he? Nope. Practically signed what the insurers gave him to sign. 

Of course it's disgusting what Trump is. But he can be forgiven the way you forgive a snake from biting you. It's what they do.

For people who see and experience first hand... then speak the liberal bs but act like thugs. Yea, that's a whole different kind of psychopathology.


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> The Russians declaring war on Japan two days after Hiroshima, mortified the Japs, because they thought Russia would help negotiate a truce on their behalf. The second bomb nailed the surrender.




No it didn't. 

It was Russia's declaration on Japan, and Stalin sending the red army back east, that forced Japan's generals to tell the emperor to surrender. 

Those Japanese generals are just as crazy as any other masters of mankind. They will sacrifice the last peasant just to hang on to power a little longer. And they have shown their willingness to do it by not surrendering after all those firebombing across their cities. 

So when Stalin declare that he also wants to march into Tokyo, the military smarten up real quick to surrender lest the commies hang all of them, particularly the Imperial Family. 

We all know what they did to the Tsars right? They'd do the same with Japan's Son of Heaven.

That and Japan will definitely be divvied up like Germany. It is better to keep your fallen empire in tact. Your emperor and his family might live... then one day down the track, you find excuse to rebuild and push the invaders out.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> No it didn't.
> 
> It was Russia's declaration on Japan, and Stalin sending the red army back east, that forced Japan's generals to tell the emperor to surrender.
> 
> ...




Wow. Think about it. Fear of a possible invasion or another A Bomb. Which would cause a surrender?
Japan would've welconed an invasion - die with honour. Can't fight an A Bomb though.


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> You claimed Russia, the U.S. and Britian weren't working together.
> 
> Secondly, Japan unreservedly surendered after the second Bomb.
> 
> You're a troll, bit like Trump on Twitter. You admire him don't you.



Quote where I said they were not fighting a common foe together. Brits didn't like yanks and yanks didn't like russians. Patton pretty much started the cold war by dissing the Russians.

Quote from Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki


> "If we miss (the chance) today, the Soviet Union will take not only Manchuria, Korea and Sakhalin, but also Hokkaido. We must end the war while we can deal with the United States."


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Wow. Think about it. Fear of a possible invasion or another A Bomb. Which would cause a surrender?
> Japan would've welconed an invasion - die with honour. Can't fight an A Bomb though.



80% of the cities were already bombed out. It would take the yanks weeks or months to invade. It would take Russians 10 days to reach the capital.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

"In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Wow. Think about it. Fear of a possible invasion or another A Bomb. Which would cause a surrender?
> Japan would've welconed an invasion - die with honour. Can't fight an A Bomb though.




The military higher ups doesn't care if cities inhabited by their peasants are bombed with whatever. They know it wouldn't land on their front lawn because if it did, there won't be anyone around to sign the peace treaty. 

So the US can bomb and destroy with whatever it is they want, the military does not care. 

They started to care when Stalin will join the party. Knowing the commies do not take kindly to kings and emperors; and will divvy up the country. 

A country being occupied today would have a chance to be liberated later - if it's unified.

If two foreign power control bits of it, it will cease to exist as a historical entity and become two separate state.

That and I'm pretty sure the merchants and bankers of Japan would rather their country fall to the capitalists than the communists. There's a better chance of not ending up in Siberia or the countryside farming and working for a living.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> The military higher ups doesn't care if cities inhabited by their peasants are bombed with whatever. They know it wouldn't land on their front lawn because if it did, there won't be anyone around to sign the peace treaty.
> 
> So the US can bomb and destroy with whatever it is they want, the military does not care.
> 
> ...




"In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> "In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki



Have a think why. 



> Put yourself in the shoes of the emperor. You’ve just led your country through a disastrous war. The economy is shattered. Eighty percent of your cities have been bombed and burned. The Army has been pummeled in a string of defeats. The Navy has been decimated and confined to port. Starvation is looming. The war, in short, has been a catastrophe and, worst of all, you’ve been lying to your people about how bad the situation really is. They will be shocked by news of surrender. So which would you rather do? Admit that you failed badly? Issue a statement that says that you miscalculated spectacularly, made repeated mistakes, and did enormous damage to the nation? Or would you rather blame the loss on an amazing scientific breakthrough that no one could have predicted? At a single stroke, blaming the loss of the war on the atomic bomb swept all the mistakes and misjudgments of the war under the rug. The Bomb was the perfect excuse for having lost the war. No need to apportion blame; no court of enquiry need be held. Japan’s leaders were able to claim they had done their best. So, at the most general level the Bomb served to deflect blame from Japan’s leaders.
> 
> But attributing Japan’s defeat to the Bomb also served three other specific political purposes. First, it helped to preserve the legitimacy of the emperor. If the war was lost not because of mistakes but because of the enemy’s unexpected miracle weapon, then the institution of the emperor might continue to find support within Japan.
> 
> ...


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2018)

Smoke and mirrors. The new info is coming from declassified documents from Russia and Japan.


----------



## Darc Knight (6 August 2018)

"In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki


----------



## luutzu (6 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> "In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki




Of course you'd say that if you're the Emperor. 

Why else would an emperor surrender if not to save his people and the country from ruin. Surrender out of fear?

Here, from a great doco "Fog of War".

Note how many cities were either half or almost completely destroyed before the two nukes.


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> "In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings, and did not explicitly mention the Soviets as a factor for surrender:"
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki




In the unlikely event that wiki is a reliable source, the compelling story in this issue is the Jap war records suggest it was the Soviets and Mongol Armies invading their Manchukao (Manchuria) state on the mainland per the Potsdam agreements.

My guess it was bomb invade bomb


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2018)

1980


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

How the hell did we go from discussing how awesome trump is, to Japan’s surrender to the US in ww2? 

Personally I blame Darc and his incessant trolling


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> No it didn't.
> 
> It was Russia's declaration on Japan, and Stalin sending the red army back east, that forced Japan's generals to tell the emperor to surrender.
> 
> ...




There's really good book written by Jap historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa who trolled through the event and records. He maintains it was the smack in the face by the Russians that put the icing on the capitulation.


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> How the hell did we go from discussing how awesome trump is, to Japan’s surrender to the US in ww2?
> 
> Personally I blame Darc and his incessant trolling




For consistency you should have thrown in a sarcastic flame for Darc,  Something like:

"You're a troll, bit like anti Trumpeters on Twitter."


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> "You're a troll, bit like anti Trumpeters on Twitter."



I think the important thing is that bas is finally quoting fox news as reference.


----------



## luutzu (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> I think the important thing is that bas is finally quoting fox news as reference.




You can always quote someone just for laughs though.


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> You can always quote someone just for laughs though.



I think bas is 100% more open minded,  factual and self editing in his recent posts. 
The divide between left and right narrowed the moment bas logged onto foxnews.com.
I think hugs are imminent!
Possibly followed by world peace if he quotes from Breitbart.


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> I think the important thing is that bas is finally quoting fox news as reference.


----------



## luutzu (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> How the hell did we go from discussing how awesome trump is, to Japan’s surrender to the US in ww2?
> 
> Personally I blame Darc and his incessant trolling




Too much time?

History possibly repeating itself? Tiny hands do like pushing big red buttons to feel big.


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> Too much time?
> 
> History possibly repeating itself? Tiny hands do like pushing big red buttons to feel big.





Its possible.

So far he always goes for the deal. Its always about the "deal" with trump. He bullies,  lies and barges his way towards one. So far he hasn't done too much damage via the military. 

Lets see what happens in NK and Iran. He needs to isolate China as they don't care about the sanctions and soak up Irans oil. 
He may quit if he loses either  house after midterms. Why would you stay and deal with that mess.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> How the hell did we go from discussing how awesome trump is, to Japan’s surrender to the US in ww2?
> 
> Personally I blame Darc and his incessant trolling




I think you admitted on another thread that you were a troll didn't you ?


----------



## SirRumpole (7 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> How Obama telling the world his mother was on her deathbed but are fighting the insurance company for health coverage blah blah. So of course he's going to fight for healthcare for all. Did he? Nope. Practically signed what the insurers gave him to sign.




He couldn't get Obamacare through Congress because the insurers reps ie the Republicans wouldn't vote for it. There are limits on even the Pres's power.


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you admitted on another thread that you were a troll didn't you ?



4chan 4 life.


----------



## Darc Knight (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> 4chan 4 life.




Lol. True colours showing again Mo.

@Joe Blow I saw this on another Forum. Two "Trump fan boys" would take delight in twisting and turning debates, basically trolling. Like they get pleasure in trying to torment. Anyway, a thriving Forum is now a ghost town. 100℅ true.


----------



## Joe Blow (7 August 2018)

Folks, no trolling please. Constructive debate and discussion only. Respect shown by all to all, irrespective of views or political positions. On topic discussion only and don't forget to be nice to others.

Thank you all for your co-operation.


----------



## Darc Knight (7 August 2018)

I'll  do you a deal Mo. Neither of us post much in the Stock threads, which is what pays  the Bills here. How about we both leave and let these Folks have a harmonious forum


----------



## SirRumpole (7 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> I'll  do you a deal Mo. Neither of us post much in the Stock threads, which is what pays  the Bills here. How about we both leave and let these Folks have a harmonious forum




Bas and Tisme harmonious ? 

Maybe that's a troll post itself.


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> I'll  do you a deal Mo. Neither of us post much in the Stock threads, which is what pays  the Bills here. How about we both leave and let these Folks have a harmonious forum



Pretty sure you and your mob have posted flat out wrong information and I've corrected it. Now you are pissy because you thought  you had it right but had it wrong and now you want to censor me.
Heres a thought don't spread fake news. I don't go after people that are having a thoughtful or sensible debate.
I rarely name call or respond to it. I will throw in digs though when under fire.
Post up bs in a thread and I'll start to pick until it unwinds.
Pretty simple.


----------



## Darc Knight (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Pretty sure you and your mob have posted flat out wrong information and I've corrected it. Now you are pissy because you thought  you had it right but had it wrong and now you want to censor me.
> Heres a thought don't spread fake news. I don't go after people that are having a thoughtful or sensible debate.
> I rarely name call or respond to it. I will throw in digs though when under fire.
> Post up bs in a thread and I'll start to pick until it unwinds.
> Pretty simple.




You're full of it. Its a certain type of person who becomes a Trump fan boy, I've seen it elsewhere. They just like to try to twist and troll, to try to torment or something, its like a cult, like that 4Chan forum you speak of. Like when Trump was encouraging his followers to attack the media.


----------



## Darc Knight (7 August 2018)

Maybe both of us should be banned Joe


----------



## Joe Blow (7 August 2018)

Darc Knight said:


> Maybe both of us should be banned Joe




I don't think that's necessary. If a thread isn't working out and no constructive discussion is happening, as sometimes happens, just back out of the thread quietly and find another one to participate in.


----------



## Darc Knight (7 August 2018)

OK. Good night all.


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you admitted on another thread that you were a troll didn't you ?





moXJO said:


> 4chan 4 life.





Darc Knight said:


> Lol. True colours showing again Mo.
> 
> @Joe Blow I saw this on another Forum. Two "Trump fan boys" would take delight in twisting and turning debates, basically trolling. Like they get pleasure in trying to torment. Anyway, a thriving Forum is now a ghost town. 100℅ true.





Darc Knight said:


> .
> 
> Do you just post sheet to argue or something. It certainly looks rhat way.





Darc Knight said:


> Still trolling are you Mo.
> 
> "





Darc Knight said:


> You're trying to emulate Trump hey?





Darc Knight said:


> You're more like Trump than you care to admit Mo.




Hey darc I took the other side of the argument. I don't care if you like trump or not. I  won't let people post up bullshet without checking it out. 

Yeah I've been trolling with facts, best at hand info, or the other point of view. I think the harshest thing I did to you was have a couple of digs and sarcastically call you a troll.  I don't troll and spam name calling, I don't post up lies, I don't quote dubious sources. And lefties don't like it.

But you waiting all day to blow up at me.... moxjo derangement at its finest.
Lighten up and breathe ffs. You're having a spit, on a thread titled "Trump derangement" because someone doesn't agree. 
The world will keep turning and next week this will all be a bitter memory of when moxjo got right up your nose.

God. Tisme has more right to be pissed at me then anyone.


----------



## luutzu (7 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> He couldn't get Obamacare through Congress because the insurers reps ie the Republicans wouldn't vote for it. There are limits on even the Pres's power.




No that's not true. As in it's true that there are limits to presidential power... BUT.

When Obama was first elected, the Yanks doesn't like the Republicans too much. So the Dems controlled both house. Obama has the support of the people, he could, if he had wanted to, do a whole lot for them.

But as an American professor said in a recent interview where he disect Obama's speech honoring Mandela, on the night of his inauguration Obama basically told his supporters that thanks, you can go home now, i'll take it from here.

Then he got a list from, literally, from Wall St bankers... of who should be assigned to what economic/treasury etc. posts. All of them, as Wikileak showed, were appointed as ordered.

With regard to Healthcare. Credit where it's due, Obama did first put the Healthcare for all [our version of Medicare] on the table. But almost immediately he withdrew it because the healthcare insurers told him he better not think about it. 

So what became ObamaCare is just one big insurance subsidies scheme. It does some good, such as not permitting refusal by insurers on "pre-existing" condition. But it still costs a heck of a lot of money, and a heck of a lot of subsidies. 

As it turn out, the insurers still find that they have to pay some of their clients, so that's not good. Hence Trump is now dismantling it, giving the Yanks more freedom and stuff.


So yea, while a president can't do everything, well... they're not supposed to because it is democratic with safeguards and all that. But on things that the plebs overwhelmingly want, such as gun control and healthcare... if Obama care for it, he'll find ways to get it done.

Two example, maybe three, that I know of where a president want to make massive social changes but can't because of powerful economic interests telling their congressman and senators to veto... They got it done by going round those barriers. 

There's Lincoln and freeing the slaves. It was not possible before the Civil War. Towards the end of the war, he doesn't really need to state that proclamation, but he did and sold it to his fellow White guys that it help with the war effort.

There's the two Roosevelts not staying bought. Telling union organisers to "make me" - i.e. protest in front of Capitol Hill, make it intense... then I'll tell the senators and distinguished gentlemen to better smarten up lest the US turn to a Germany or a Soviet Union. 

Anyway, Obama is just no good.


----------



## basilio (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> I think the important thing is that bas is finally quoting fox news as reference.




I thought the BIG deal was a Fox anchor reporter Set Smith  systematically rebutting the lies and BS of one of their chief opinion leaders. Very impressive piece of journalism made even better because it came from Fox. 

One interesting hypothetical of course is how an identical debunking by a reporter from another network would be treated.  Would it be just more "fake news" ? Would also be interesting to see how one eyed Fox viewers  felt about Seths analysis.  Hint "String him up!!"  Check out the comments on the video.


----------



## luutzu (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Its possible.
> 
> So far he always goes for the deal. Its always about the "deal" with trump. He bullies,  lies and barges his way towards one. So far he hasn't done too much damage via the military.
> 
> ...




At some $700B a year, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of bang for them bucks. 

They're getting ready to march into Tehran and Caracas though. That's going to be fun.  Jebus man, there's like 7 or 8 wars the US is in right now. Not counting the smaller operations all over Africa and S/America. 

Going to add two more. Then possibly in Asia to contain China?

That's how the Poms fell didn't they? Overstretched and taking on the world's rising power.


Saw an interview on the Real News with Paul Jay where he quoted Kissinger, that other Nobel Laureate, saying back in the 1970s that... if there's a smart guy at the US state department 20 years from now, they'll play Russia against China the way Henry is playing China to hold Russia down. 

I'm not quite sure how pushing Russia into the arms of China a good way of containing China. Like you said there, Iran's oil will now flow (mostly) to China; Russian oil and gas are already flowing East. 

Beijing is probably laughing their buts off right now.


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

basilio said:


> I thought the BIG deal was a Fox anchor reporter Set Smith  systematically rebutting the lies and BS of one of their chief opinion leaders. Very impressive piece of journalism made even better because it came from Fox.
> 
> One interesting hypothetical of course is how an identical debunking by a reporter from another network would be treated.  Would it be just more "fake news" ? Would also be interesting to see how one eyed Fox viewers  felt about Seths analysis.  Hint "String him up!!"  Check out the comments on the video.



Not sure why fox went all out to the alt right. I'm not sure the center is drifting anymore right either to pick up viewers.
I do like that reporter for the stands he takes and its needed.
Fox needs to drift a bit closer to center rather than run away from it. They need to drop the stories full of half truths  as well.


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> At some $700B a year, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of bang for them bucks.
> 
> They're getting ready to march into Tehran and Caracas though. That's going to be fun.  Jebus man, there's like 7 or 8 wars the US is in right now. Not counting the smaller operations all over Africa and S/America.
> 
> ...



More than likely they will try a people's revolution in Iran. Israel and Saudi Arabia are already firing it up. Sanction bomb and wait for discontent. 

The other concern is Turkey. You just don't know where you stand with them.

Obama dropped the ball with Russia and China. Trump is hamstrung at the moment and just as usless untill the collusion details come out. Its a situation that needs urgent sorting as well. Once china is out of the box kiss the US influence goodbye.


----------



## luutzu (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> More than likely they will try a people's revolution in Iran. Israel and Saudi Arabia are already firing it up. Sanction bomb and wait for discontent.
> 
> The other concern is Turkey. You just don't know where you stand with them.
> 
> Obama dropped the ball with Russia and China. Trump is hamstrung at the moment and just as usless untill the collusion details come out. Its a situation that needs urgent sorting as well. Once china is out of the box kiss the US influence goodbye.




Yea, the nuts in Israel and Saudi Arabia aren't going to let a chance like Trump going away without first lighting Tehran up. It'd be hard to imagine there'll be another US president even thinking about it. 

But it's nice to see the Jews and Arabs working together though. Destroying the region and all, but still, it shows that money and geopolitical advantage, and money, is thicker than what edition of the Bible one follows 

Heard from some smart guy, and I agree with his analysis (first in best dressed in my greyzone my friend)... he was saying that Obama got it right on China/Russia. That he, or his guys, are better strategist than Trump's warlords, when it come to containing China.

From memory, Putin was still somewhat chummy with Obama... helped him out after that Red Line on Assad where he threatens to send other people's kids boots into Syria if Assad uses chemical weapons. Putin intervened and convinced Assad to get rid of them. But then so much of getting rid of WMD and not being invaded. So maybe Putin was played.

Anyway, Obama did make peace with Iran. Wasn't pushing Russia too hard.. .well, exept Libya and the Ukraine. All that was so the US can withdraw some or most of its resources into Darwin to protect Australia 

Then there's that trade pact, TPP, to both make international corporation richer and keeping China out of it. 

Trump cleared those in a hurry. So now China have to try and beat the recent $300M upfront payment Pompeo offered tot he ASEAN to flip back to the good side. 

It's going to be pretty tough to win friends with that kind of cash man. $300M ain't what they used to be.

That crazy Duterte was saying how the Yanks told him to stand up to China. "with what?", he asked. You know they're building a few military bases right next to window right? They got a lot of people and a whole lot of cash and weapons they're itchy to do some live test with right? [he didn't say that last few bits, but pretty close ]


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> Yea, the nuts in Israel and Saudi Arabia aren't going to let a chance like Trump going away without first lighting Tehran up. It'd be hard to imagine there'll be another US president even thinking about it.
> 
> But it's nice to see the Jews and Arabs working together though. Destroying the region and all, but still, it shows that money and geopolitical advantage, and money, is thicker than what edition of the Bible one follows
> 
> ...



Putin and Obama hated one another I thought. Obama pivoting east for soft power might have worked. I don't think the military option would. 

I think renegotiating the world order from a position of strength. Then westernize/democracy  the hell out of them. I think we discussed it before that China won't stay contained for much longer. India is the other one rising.

I'm not sure I have faith in Trump at the negotiating table. The US shoots itself in the feet by constant internal conflict.

But the next decade Australia will have to decide if we are east or west. We should be strengthening ties in asia a lot more then we have been.


----------



## Tisme (7 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Bas and Tisme harmonious ?
> 
> Maybe that's a troll post itself.





He's been using bas as his foil during the whole troll campaign. The "hilarious" statements etc are classic troll methods to flame, then the icing on the cake is to complain to the admin about the mess created by the troll itself ...... not very sophisticated, lame really and now we all know for sure he's not bas' husband afterall.


----------



## luutzu (7 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Putin and Obama hated one another I thought. Obama pivoting east for soft power might have worked. I don't think the military option would.
> 
> I think renegotiating the world order from a position of strength. Then westernize/democracy  the hell out of them. I think we discussed it before that China won't stay contained for much longer. India is the other one rising.
> 
> ...




Heard that Putin said during the Obama/[that Bain Capital Mormon guy... Romney?] that he's vote for Obama.

But yea, I can't remember whether they started off as bff or not. But it didn't end on happy terms sometime after the US and NATO bombed Libya, then a "democratic" uprising in the Ukraine.

Yea, don't think it's possible to contain China. I mean, both sides have nukes so they'll, hopefully, not directly confront each other. So that leave a few well funded CIA ops in the Middle Kingdom lighting up that cry for freedom, democracy and a civil war or two.

If that happens... quite a few million Chinese will not live their natural life. Australia and most of the world's economy will be stuffed.

Would China just sit there and take it or will they open a few Facebook pages to get back at the US? 

The other alternative is to just let them alone. Watch their own imperial ambition pizzes every one of their neighbours off and then send over a few pallets of the good stuff to help things along.

Oh man, I just realised it might not be normal to talk war and peace like this... It's not psychotic if you're just "intellectualising" it right?

Anywa, soft power and foreign aid.

China probably have an upper hand on that one already. They managed to pull Pakistan their way right under the US's nose. All those hundreds of millions of aids from the US, the nuclear code to fend against India.

I guess droning them doesn't help the friendship. Building a few freight rail and highways and ports helps a lot.

------

Australia should do alright. One master is the same as another. And it's always good to know more than two language anyway.


----------



## basilio (7 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> He's been using bas as his foil during the whole troll campaign. The "hilarious" statements etc are classic troll methods to flame, then the icing on the cake is to complain to the admin about the mess created by the troll itself ...... not very sophisticated, lame really and now we all know for sure he's not bas' husband afterall.




Shirley your not serious!! Darc and I still good friends - thats all. Nothing else..

Unlike you and I  "12C" Tizzie.. we understand each other so well. All your little dark secrets. Those amazing stories you float ... but don't necessarily believe?  Your creative ways with pontification.

And of course who could be a more accomplished troller than Tizzie?  Let's be fair he is up there with the best.


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

basilio said:


> .
> 
> And of course who could be a more accomplished troller than Tizzie?  Let's be fair he is up there with the best.



But I'm the best right?


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> Heard that Putin said during the Obama/[that Bain Capital Mormon guy... Romney?] that he's vote for Obama.
> 
> But yea, I can't remember whether they started off as bff or not. But it didn't end on happy terms sometime after the US and NATO bombed Libya, then a "democratic" uprising in the Ukraine.
> 
> ...



I'm actually worried australia is screwed and due for an economic fall either way. Trump sanctions will eventually filter down the line and screw us. Petrol prices are already getting high (partly US dollar)but the Iran stuff will eventually bite us harder. And a drought so food will move up. No energy plan. The cards are stacking against us.


----------



## Tisme (8 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Shirley your not serious!! Darc and I still good friends - thats all. Nothing else..
> 
> Unlike you and I  "12C" Tizzie.. we understand each other so well. All your little dark secrets. Those amazing stories you float ... but don't necessarily believe?  Your creative ways with pontification.
> 
> And of course who could be a more accomplished troller than Tizzie?  Let's be fair he is up there with the best.




Listen lady, I am not going to apologise for living a full and worthwhile life, just because you decided somewhere in yours, to live a beige boring tit, safe puritanical existence.

You have to learn to own your own short comings instead of being part of the takedown brigade. Beginning by stopping the deliberate lying would be a good start for you.

Luv 12CTizzie


----------



## Tisme (8 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> But I'm the best right?




So ...it's come to that has it! All that pillow talk was for nought it seems.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> I'm actually worried australia is screwed and due for an economic fall either way. Trump sanctions will eventually filter down the line and screw us. Petrol prices are already getting high (partly US dollar)but the Iran stuff will eventually bite us harder. And a drought so food will move up. No energy plan. The cards are stacking against us.




Yes, I agree.

If Trump insists that people who trade with Iran won't trade with the US, then that's going to put a big hole in our wheat exports. Trumps arrogance has collateral damage yet again.


----------



## Tisme (8 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, I agree.
> 
> If Trump insists that people who trade with Iran won't trade with the US, then that's going to put a big hole in our wheat exports. Trumps arrogance has collateral damage yet again.




Not really knowing the answer, but I wonder how his edicts have benefitted or disadvantaged Oz sofar?


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Not really knowing the answer, but I wonder how his edicts have benefitted or disadvantaged Oz sofar?




I'd say sanctions to date mean we have sold a lot less to Iran than we otherwise could have, so our income has been reduced, but like you I wouldn't guess by how much.


----------



## Tisme (8 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I'd say sanctions to date mean we have sold a lot less to Iran than we otherwise could have, so our income has been reduced, but like you I wouldn't guess by how much.




My crystal ball suggests it's the usual riding on the sheep's back stuff from us = wheat, wool and animal cruelty (live sheep exports). Can't be much in the scheme of things.

I doubt we have anything else to offer given we don't really make anything except collectivist rules and nanny states.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> I doubt we have anything else to offer given we don't really make anything except collectivist rules and nanny states.




Have a look in the Energy thread.

If we can patent our method of hydrogen storage and transport, that could be our oilfields.


----------



## Tisme (8 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Have a look in the Energy thread.
> 
> If we can patent our method of hydrogen storage and transport, that could be our oilfields.





Yeah I read that when you posted it. Fingers crossed on that, but I think it will be sold off and any production done in another country ... that's how we do it here isn't it...e.g. develop solar cells and run off to mother country with the technology and knowhow or sell to overseas mob who will kill the idea for profit.


----------



## basilio (8 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Listen lady, I am not going to apologise for living a full and worthwhile life, just because you decided somewhere in yours, to live a beige boring tit, safe puritanical existence.
> 
> You have to learn to own your own short comings instead of being part of the takedown brigade. Beginning by stopping the deliberate lying would be a good start for you.
> 
> Luv 12CTizzie



Brilliant troll   Up there with the best of your work 12C Tizzie.  Delighted to see you havn't lost your stiletto.

Truly what we do without the blessed stories of your full and wonderful life and infinite capacity to justify whatever story you drop in our laps.


----------



## Skate (8 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Listen lady, I am not going to apologise for living a full and worthwhile life, just because you decided somewhere in yours, _*to live a beige boring tit, safe puritanical existence.*_
> 
> You have to learn to own your own short comings instead of being part of the takedown brigade. Beginning by stopping the deliberate lying would be a good start for you.
> 
> Luv 12CTizzie




*OFF TOPIC Observation*

*"to live a beige boring tit, safe puritanical existence".*

Tisme is very articulate when posting but this vernacular prompted a chuckle..

Skate.​


----------



## moXJO (8 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> So ...it's come to that has it! All that pillow talk was for nought it seems.



If a post of mine smells suss, Bas keeps a mile away.


----------



## moXJO (8 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Not really knowing the answer, but I wonder how his edicts have benefitted or disadvantaged Oz sofar?



I wonder how much we lost in the TPP?


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> If Trump insists that people who trade with Iran won't trade with the US, then that's going to put a big hole in our wheat exports. Trumps arrogance has collateral damage yet again.




Another one is oil. Iran exports about 3 million barrels per day and nobody, including Saudi Arabia, claims to have the capacity to replace that.

So if Iran stops exporting oil then the likely outcome is a price spike followed by a recession affecting most countries including Australia (noting that we're a big importer of oil not an exporter).

My thoughts on all this are that there are two possibilities and I'm neutral as to which is most likely:

1. Trump, or whoever else maybe pulling the strings, really is a fool and doesn't understand the consequences.

2. He knows exactly what the consequences are and expects to profit either financially or politically from it.

If pushed then I'd have a slight bias toward "personal profit" being the motivation for it all. Buy a heap of oil futures and short the shares of every listed airline in the world, impose sanctions on Iran and stop the flow of oil, there's an easy few $billion in profit. If not Trump personally then it's plausible that someone else of relevance is applying that sort of logic - personal profit and to hell with the broader consequences (which would be classic sociopath thinking). That said, I'll accept ignorance as a very plausible alternative explanation.


----------



## moXJO (8 August 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> That said, I'll accept ignorance as a very plausible alternative explanation.




I think he wasn't kidding when he said America first. And Australia will be worse off for it. He does not care one iota about our economic situation. 

I can't see anyone on our government either side with any vision either.


----------



## Tisme (8 August 2018)




----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> View attachment 88789




Geez, where did they get this stuff ?

According to the analysis below, Obama ADDED 11.3 million jobs during his Presidency.

http://time.com/money/4636761/jobs-barack-obama-presidency/

Of course, all figures can be juggled, but lets look at a few other sources as well.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 August 2018)

Thing is, those "numbers" are only economic ones.

We live in a society, we don't live in an economy, and voters will judge based on many things of which economics is just one.

That's a point often forgotten by the political "Right". Business and the economy is one of the acts but it most certainly isn't the whole show.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> We live in a society, we don't live in an economy, and voters will judge based on many things of which economics is just one.




Sure, unemployment may be low, but a job is a job even at $5 per hour according to some. Job quality is rarely measured and the raw figures cover a multitude of sins (like underemployment).


----------



## IFocus (8 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Geez, where did they get this stuff ?




Straight after the GFC Hussein the Muslim (not born in the USA) inherited those numbers.


----------



## Tisme (8 August 2018)

https://amd-ssl.cdn.turner.com/cnn/big/ads/2018/06/06/Ghana_15_Teaser_Campaign_1280x720.mp4


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> https://amd-ssl.cdn.turner.com/cnn/big/ads/2018/06/06/Ghana_15_Teaser_Campaign_1280x720.mp4




Nice.


----------



## basilio (8 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> If a post of mine smells suss, Bas keeps a mile away.




Oh No!! Completely forget to acknowledge your very special post about being the bestest troll there is.

Yes you are *very *good Mo.  But there is much stiff competition in these threads. Probably need to be a little more poisonous to be up there with the board leaders. (I do remember you ran a particularly viralent post some time ago which managed to tick all the boxes. But I think it was done with a smile...


----------



## moXJO (8 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Oh No!! Completely forget to acknowledge your very special post about being the bestest troll there is.
> 
> Yes you are *very *good Mo.  But there is much stiff competition in these threads. Probably need to be a little more poisonous to be up there with the board leaders. (I do remember you ran a particularly viralent post some time ago which managed to tick all the boxes. But I think it was done with a smile...



How dare you call me a troll. And only a suboptimal one at that.


----------



## luutzu (8 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure, unemployment may be low, but a job is a job even at $5 per hour according to some. Job quality is rarely measured and the raw figures cover a multitude of sins (like underemployment).




Wondering if having two or three jobs is considered 1 job or 3 in the stats.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> Wondering if having two or three jobs is considered 1 job or 3 in the stats.




Good point, but I think if you worked 1 hour a week you were considered "employed", so that counts as one job.

Another reason not to trust the raw data.


----------



## Sdajii (9 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> Wondering if having two or three jobs is considered 1 job or 3 in the stats.




It doesn't count the number of jobs. It counts the percentage of people with zero jobs. Someone with 3 jobs counts the same as someone with 1 job.

I'd be embarrassed to ask a question like this in the context of looking at unemployment figures. If out of 100 people 5 don't have jobs at all and are classed as unemployed, and 95 do have jobs and count as employed, it doesn't matter whether the 95 have 95 jobs between them or 950. In no system of calculating unemployment does that change anything.



SirRumpole said:


> Good point, but I think if you worked 1 hour a week you were considered "employed", so that counts as one job.
> 
> Another reason not to trust the raw data.




You're nicely displaying the title theme phenomenon. 

By all means, look into it as deeply as you like. Unemployment is down no matter how you look at it. You don't boost the economy and GDP and average wage and put tariffs on foreign goods encouraging local manufacturing causing more local manufacturing thus more local jobs, etc etc, without creating more jobs. It's not arguable in any sane sense, it's not marginal, it's big and it's clear and it's obvious and you're clearly suffering from TDS. Apparently it just hurts you to acknowledge that Trump is succeeding in something, and you'll twist things to whatever extent necessary to avoid seeing the reality you don't like. Absolutely classic TDS.

Incredible that TDS has people so desperate that even with such clear and extreme improvement to unemployment, they will try to pretend it doesn't exist, and accuse others of being the ones trying to play with the facts!


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2018)

Sdajii said:


> Incredible that TDS has people so desperate that even with such clear and extreme improvement to unemployment, they will try to pretend it doesn't exist, and accuse others of being the ones trying to play with the facts!




If you have never heard or don't understand the  phrase "lies, damn lies and statistics", then you are the one playing with "facts".


----------



## Tisme (9 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Nice.





Sorry about that. It was the teaser before the actual CNN video of the still I posted. The kitchen table it and acknowledge Obama inherited a s#it sandwich, but the net result (according to them) is that Trump has bragging rights.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Sorry about that. It was the teaser before the actual CNN video of the still I posted. The kitchen table it and acknowledge Obama inherited a s#it sandwich, but the net result (according to them) is that Trump has bragging rights.




Well, I suppose the question is are the results good luck or good management for both Obama and Trump ?

It also will be interesting to see how the US debt and deficit disaster develops and the result that this will have on service delivery and general community contentment. Maybe the midterms will provide some answer, but it's a bit early yet for the company tax cuts and tariff policy to have an effect.


----------



## Tisme (9 August 2018)

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/05/politics/donald-trump-approval-tweet/index.html


----------



## luutzu (9 August 2018)

Sdajii said:


> It doesn't count the number of jobs. It counts the percentage of people with zero jobs. Someone with 3 jobs counts the same as someone with 1 job.
> 
> I'd be embarrassed to ask a question like this in the context of looking at unemployment figures. If out of 100 people 5 don't have jobs at all and are classed as unemployed, and 95 do have jobs and count as employed, it doesn't matter whether the 95 have 95 jobs between them or 950. In no system of calculating unemployment does that change anything.
> 
> ...




A person is never embarrassed to ask stupid questions if they're intelligent, or confident that they are intelligent 

So unemployment figures over the years don't paint the same picture then?

Say an Average Joe was "employed" some decades a go in one job that afford a roof, food on the table, health insurance, a decent car, maybe a holiday now and then. 

Average Joe Jr. is also "employed"... in two jobs. Both of which he need to get to else "no soup for you."

I guess the lesson is to never look at one metric, but multiple of them to have any hope of understanding the world.


----------



## Tisme (9 August 2018)

Giving Warren the rounds of the table:
https://tinyurl.com/ychxblmo


----------



## Tisme (9 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> A person is never embarrassed to ask stupid questions if they're intelligent, or confident that they are intelligent
> 
> So unemployment figures over the years don't paint the same picture then?
> 
> ...




https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm







> *Who is counted as employed?*
> People are considered employed_* if they did any work at all for pay or profit *_during the survey reference week. This includes all part-time and temporary work, as well as regular full-time, year-round employment. Individuals also are counted as employed if they have a job at which they did not work during the survey week, whether they were paid or not, because they were:
> 
> 
> ...




So if you mowed the neighbors lawn once a week and got paid for it, you are employed even if you did bugger all for the rest of the time.

As I said, damn lies and statistics.


----------



## Tisme (9 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> So if you mowed the neighbors lawn once a week and got paid for it, you are employed even if you did bugger all for the rest of the time.
> 
> As I said, damn lies and statistics.




Perhaps, but it's the same goal post as Trumps predecessors used so as a comparison it's as useful as it can be.

Current stats:

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.toc.htm


----------



## luutzu (9 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Giving Warren the rounds of the table:
> https://tinyurl.com/ychxblmo




They just fired 40 staff at some financial market watchdog. Why would the financial market needs any watching when it's going so well?

Mnuchin is planning to help "mom and pop" private "pass-through" corporation being able to permanently benefit from tax cuts. That will cost the Treasury some $495B over ten years. He meant, save average mums and dads about half a trillion dollars.

Just adding the headline figures so far... there's the $1.5T tax cut; the planned $100B redefinition of what is a real capital gain... and now this small gift.

Wow Trump, you're supposed to drain the swamp, not the Treasury.

Who's going to pay for all these? Oh yea, "China", the EU, those dam Canadians and Mexicans. How will they pay you ask? By getting American consumers to pay more for foreign imports.

Oh wait, it's not completely drained. It's just shifted. All for me, nothing for you lazy no good peasants.

Get another job you bum.


----------



## Sdajii (11 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> If you have never heard or don't understand the  phrase "lies, damn lies and statistics", then you are the one playing with "facts".




I'm well familiar with the saying. It is easy to fool stupid people with cleverly represented statistics. That's what the saying means.

It is also a flimsy excuse for people like yourself to use when they want to avoid recognising even the simplest mathematical realities. Again, a lovely example of TDS.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 August 2018)

If this is true then yes, Trump most certainly is deranged and is a danger to humanity.

Nothing further can be said really other than that a boycott of US products in which this may end up would be very wise. If it's true that is (I can't verify it one way or the other).

https://archpaper.com/2018/08/epa-asbestos-manufacturing/

Asbestos is banned in:

Algeria, Czech Republic, Iceland, Malta, Serbia, Argentina, Denmark, Ireland, Mozambique, Australia, Egypt, Israel, Netherlands, Slovakia, Austria, Estonia, Italy, New Caledonia, Slovenia, Bahrain, Finland, Japan, Norway, South Africa, Belgium, France, Jordan, Oman, Spain, Brunei, Gabon, South Korea, Poland, Sweden, Bulgaria, Germany, Kuwait, Portugal, Switzerland, Chile, Greece, Latvia, Qatar, Turkey, Croatia, Honduras, Lithuania, Romania, United Kingdom, Cyprus, Hungary, Luxembourg, Saudi Arabia, Uruguay and others but not to worry king clown Trump thinks it's all a big conspiracy and it's perfectly safe.

Yeah right.....


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> If this is true then yes, Trump most certainly is deranged and is a danger to humanity.
> 
> Nothing further can be said really other than that a boycott of US products in which this may end up would be very wise. If it's true that is (I can't verify it one way or the other).
> 
> ...




Looks like it could be true.

http://digg.com/2018/epa-asbestos-trump

Russian connection again ?


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2018)

He'll probably want to bring back lead in petrol too.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> He'll probably want to bring back lead in petrol too.



And anything else that's going to take decades to fix.

As for the Russians, well this is all just getting too damn blatant isn't it?

At what point does someone join the dots and accept that the person seen heading into the bush carrying a drum of kerosene in one hand and a cigarette lighter in the other and the inferno which got going half an hour later and ultimately wiped out the town are almost certainly connected? 

Trump's getting just as blatant really. Poison your own people if it keeps someone in Russia happy. Incredible.


----------



## Tisme (13 August 2018)

I remember being on an excursion at the James Hardie factory in Welshpool and the enclosed place was a fog of cement and floaties. I was not surprised when workers started to be identified with lung failures. 

I'm not all that convinced that minor or sporadic exposure to fines from cutting fibro, nor removing linoleum, handling vinyl cladding, etc is as dangerous as made out to be.


----------



## IFocus (13 August 2018)

More "Derangement" from the fake news mob,

"But the differences from that era appear more profound to him. Bernstein explained: “This is worse than Watergate in the sense that the system worked in Watergate and it’s not apparent yet that the system is working in the current situation.* No president* has done anything like Trump to characterise the American press and its exercise of the first amendment as the enemy of the people, *a phrase associated with the greatest despots of the 20th century.*”"


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'm not all that convinced that minor or sporadic exposure to fines from cutting fibro, nor removing linoleum, handling vinyl cladding, etc is as dangerous as made out to be.



It’s a dose versus response thing. One exposure is very unlikely to kill you, a hundred is more likely, but there’s no “hard” limit and no known safe level.

Given that the danger is known and alternatives exist I see no reason to continue using the stuff. If there were  no alternatives then we’d have no choice but there alternatives which are good enough in practice so there’s just no need to use it.

Disclosures:

1. I know three people who have suffered ill health, one fatal, due to asbestos so there’s a personal aspect to the issue.

2. I have formal training in relation to it, have dealt with plenty of it, etc. I’m not living in fear of the stuff but everything I know on the subject tells me it’s a hazard the exposure to which should be minimised.

Just about everyone has had some exposure somewhere just through living but the less you get, the less likely you are to suffer consequences. Suffice to say I have some fairly firm thoughts as to where Trump can shove his asbestos.

The issue has for me been the deciding factor when it comes to Trump. Other actions could be rationalised or dismissed as trivial or purely ideological but this one is truly ridiculous and oh so wrong in so many ways. From the danger itself through to blatantly controlling the actions of government departments which ought to be beyond short term politics through to yet another case where Russia is involved. It is simply wrong in every possible way that this is occurring.


----------



## Tisme (14 August 2018)




----------



## Tisme (14 August 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> It’s a dose versus response thing. One exposure is very unlikely to kill you, a hundred is more likely, but there’s no “hard” limit and no known safe level.
> 
> Given that the danger is known and alternatives exist I see no reason to continue using the stuff. If there were  no alternatives then we’d have no choice but there alternatives which are good enough in practice so there’s just no need to use it.
> 
> ...




A refurb project in Brisbane has found asbestos in the mastic used to mate and seal aircond ductwork. Also the new "Tower of Power" executive building was found to have asbestos products. Cars from China had to be recalled because of asbestos products.

When you look at all the various products, it should be considered if the whole population has been exposed, or if it's more confined to overt exposure like super six fence panels, fibro boards, manufacture, welding gloves, etc.

short list:

Carpet underlay
Cement floors
Hot water pipes
Fences
Sheds
Under wall and floor tiles
Under vinyl or linoleum
Ceiling panels
Internal Walls
Eaves
Pipe insulation
Paint
Roof shingles
Brake shoes
Disc pads
Elevator brakes
Plaster patching compound
Imitation brick cladding
Fire proofing
Sound proofing
Insulation
Old ironing board covers


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> When you look at all the various products, it should be considered if the whole population has been exposed, or if it's more confined to overt exposure like super six fence panels, fibro boards, manufacture, welding gloves, etc.



The air monitoring I've seen leaves me 100% convinced that all people who have ever visited a city have been exposed. That's you, me, just about everyone. Reason = there's so much of the stuff around that the background level in the air in cities is measurable.

I'm not in fear and there's no rational reason for most people to be but in the context of Trump's actions it's just plain madness in my view. Just because there's some already out there, and many $ millions are being spent to deal with it, doesn't mean we should add more indeed the reverse is true.

By the same logic just because someone's 20kg overweight doesn't mean they should start eating pies and chips every day. Rather, they'd be wise to eat healthily and slow but surely get rid of the excess weight. Same with asbestos - stop putting it in, keep taking it out when works are done etc, and eventually we'll be rid of the hazard. In 2018 there's no necessary reason to be using asbestos in all but an extremely small number of applications in the chemical industry and so we shouldn't be using it. It doesn't need to be in building products that's for sure.

It just makes me angry to see such a truly ridiculous thing being done. Going back to using something we know beyond all doubt is seriously harmful.

By that logic we'll be back to having people smoking cigarettes inside office buildings by this time next year and we'll be back to chimneys belching clouds of fumes into the sky as well. May as well tell construction workers that hard hats and ear muffs won't be used anymore and remove vehicle safety standards while we're at it.

I see the appeal of retro things when it comes to architecture, books, films, music and so on but not when it comes to things like keeping people reasonably safe.


----------



## Junior (14 August 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> The air monitoring I've seen leaves me 100% convinced that all people who have ever visited a city have been exposed. That's you, me, just about everyone. Reason = there's so much of the stuff around that the background level in the air in cities is measurable.
> 
> I'm not in fear and there's no rational reason for most people to be but in the context of Trump's actions it's just plain madness in my view. Just because there's some already out there, and many $ millions are being spent to deal with it, doesn't mean we should add more indeed the reverse is true.
> 
> ...




Yeah but Fake News, and Trump twitter says so.


On a more serious note....I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis.


----------



## Tisme (14 August 2018)

It's the mob's fault ... I'm guessing this relates to Trump's building business:

_The backstory is in the president’s book. He wrote that efforts to regulate asbestos was part of a mob-led conspiracy: "I believe that the movement against asbestos was led by the mob, because it was often mob-related companies that would do the asbestos removal."_


----------



## moXJO (14 August 2018)

There are different grades of asbestos. The one they used as lagging around pipes and the roof insulation one were the worst. The ones in roof sheets are fine while its bonded. Its when it becomes friable, the dust runs to the gutters and someone then cleans the gutters out. I've  literally eaten the stuff and so did my old man.

 I've cut and eaten a fair amount of it. So far so good on chest xrays. Another 2 friends died from it. One was in the building game but he also did the lagging on pipes in England. The other use to cart asbestos away in skip bins.
Its a fantastic substance apart from the fact it will kill you.

As for trump,  the US never ban asbestos (only the friable stuff) and I think it can only be 1% of the weight. Now the replacements and other products seem to be bad as well. Things like silica and carbon nanotubes will give you mesothelioma.
Now the new rule:



> The EPA has proposed a framework that will allow for the approval for "new uses" of asbestos
> 
> This rule allows the government to evaluate asbestos use on a case by case basis. Unfortunately the new rule does not include the evaluation of exposure to asbestos in the air, ground or water.




Its too open to corruption imo. The legacy issues can be a disaster. Will have to try and find the criteria under which it would be allowed. That said it apparently is up against the rules already in place.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Its too open to corruption imo.



My reading of it is that they’re precluded from considering the effects of it being in the air and can only consider the effects of direct contact.

Thing is, direct contact with asbestos is perfectly safe and it’s having it in the air that may kill you.

So it’s a bit like saying bullets are completely safe since handling them causes no harm at all. Never mind that bit about being hit by one at high velocity.

Cigarettes also are very safe so long as you’re only touching it and don’t inhale the smoke.

Etc.


----------



## Junior (15 August 2018)

Vladimir Putin is globally recognised as a thug, murderer and enemy of the Western world, now all of a sudden Trump fans have decided he's an alright bloke....based on what?  Donald Trump's twitter feed?  Similar story with Jong-un.

His supporters have been successfully brainwashed.


----------



## ghotib (16 August 2018)

The formal EPA document - I think. The full discussion for asbestos starts at page 217.

https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/federal-register-notice-proposed-snur-asbestos

The effect seems to be to significantly narrow the scope of EPA reviews:



> EPA does not plan to evaluate emission pathways to ambient air from
> commercial and industrial stationary sources or associated inhalation exposure of the general
> population or terrestrial species




Could have been written by a James Hardie executive.


----------



## PZ99 (17 August 2018)

When a US breakfast consists of Egg, Nostalgia and Mea Culpa


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2018)

ghotib said:


> The formal EPA document - I think. The full discussion for asbestos starts at page 217.
> 
> https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/federal-register-notice-proposed-snur-asbestos
> 
> ...



Good find


----------



## basilio (17 August 2018)

ghotib said:


> The formal EPA document - I think. The full discussion for asbestos starts at page 217.
> 
> https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/federal-register-notice-proposed-snur-asbestos
> 
> ...




Unbelieveable.. Forget about rewriting history.  Now into rewriting science


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2018)

PZ99 said:


> When a US breakfast consists of Egg, Nostalgia and Mea Culpa




Possibly the greatest salt mine in history.
And the beginning of "Trump derangement".


----------



## basilio (17 August 2018)

Omarosa is making big waves. Not just the accusations which of course can be simply dismissed as lies (just like the 20 plus women who Donald Trump didn't abuse.) but the tapes that provide the evidence for the accusations.

This is pretty potent.
* Omarosa releases new tape of Trump campaign's 'hush money' offer *
Ex-White House aide says $15,000-a-month job offer from Trump’s daughter-in-law Lara was ‘an attempt to buy my silence’

Ben Jacobs in Washington

 @Bencjacobs 
Thu 16 Aug 2018 19.21 BST   Last modified on Thu 16 Aug 2018 19.47 BST

*Shares*
250




Omarosa Manigault Newman played clips of the call on MSNBC, which she says was recorded shortly after she was dismissed from the White House. Photograph: Andrew Harnik/AP
Omarosa Manigault Newman, the former White House aide, has released fresh audio recordings that she claims show she was offered “hush money” by Donald Trump’s re-election campaign.

...  In the call, Lara Trump, who has a senior role in Donald Trump’s re-election campaign, offers Manigault Newman a job that would pay $180,000 a year in exchange for occasionally attending meetings in New York and doing “speaking engagements”.

Lara Trump said in the phone conversation that *“it sounds a little, like, obviously, that there are some things you’ve got in the back pocket to pull out”. However, she noted that if Mangault Newman joined the campaign, everything she would say about Trump would have to be “positive”.*

Manigault Newman, a former Apprentice contestant who was once the most prominent African American in the Trump administration, told MSNBC she saw the offer as “an attempt to buy my silence, censor me and pay me off – $15,000 a month”.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Omarosa is making big waves. Not just the accusations which of course can be simply dismissed as lies (just like the 20 plus women who Donald Trump didn't abuse.) but the tapes that provide the evidence for the accusations.




Trump calling her "a dog" on Twitter was as low as you can get.

He's a true ar$ehole.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2018)

> (2) The significant new use is: Manufacturing (including importing) or processing for any of the following uses:
> 
> (i) Arc chutes;
> 
> ...



In a country that lets its people die from exposure to all kinds of chemicals,  I'm against a double down with asbestos.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Trump calling her "a dog" on Twitter was as low as you can get.
> 
> He's a true ar$ehole.



Didn't someone call her a black c#nt when she went to work for trump. And the media defended the name calling.


----------



## luutzu (17 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> In a country that lets its people die from exposure to all kinds of chemicals,  I'm against a double down with asbestos.




It's only bad if you breathe it in. So as long as you're in a well filtered limo, live by the seaside and away from any sort of construction or labour work... what's the harm?

You heard of cases where industrial-scale pig farming got creative with the waste and dead carcasses? 

They collect it into a big pond... let the sun does its work. But that's too slow so they started spraying it into the air. Stinking and polluting neighbours miles away. A few got sick... meh... people gotta eat right? What's breakfast without bacon [says, literally, a freaking US morning show host covering that story].

Greed is good.


----------



## PZ99 (17 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Didn't someone call her a black c#nt when she went to work for trump. And the media defended the name calling.



C'mon, that's nowhere near as bad as "dog"


----------



## basilio (17 August 2018)

Classy...


----------



## basilio (17 August 2018)

For the full story on Admiral McCraven request to Donald Trump check this out.

Be interesting to see the fallout here.
*Revoke my security clearance, too, Mr. President*






Navy Adm. William McRaven, right, and U.S. Marine Corps Gen. James Mattis in 2013. (Gary Cameron/Reuters)
By William H. McRaven
August 16 at 2:44 PM
_William H. McRaven, a retired Navy admiral, was commander of the U.S. Joint Special Operations Command from 2011 to 2014. He oversaw the 2011 Navy SEAL raid in Pakistan that killed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden._

Dear Mr. President:

Former CIA director John Brennan, whose security clearance you  revoked on Wednesday, is one of the finest public servants I have ever known. Few Americans have done more to protect this country than John. He is a man of unparalleled integrity, whose honesty and character have never been in question, except by those who don’t know him.

Therefore, I would consider it an honor if you would revoke my security clearance as well, so I can add my name to the list of men and women who have spoken up against your presidency.

Like most Americans, I had hoped that when you became president, you would rise to the occasion and become the leader this great nation needs.

A good leader tries to embody the best qualities of his or her organization. A good leader sets the example for others to follow. A good leader always puts the welfare of others before himself or herself.

Your leadership, however, has shown little of these qualities. Through your actions, you have embarrassed us in the eyes of our children, humiliated us on the world stage and, worst of all, divided us as a nation.

If you think for a moment that your McCarthy-era tactics will suppress the voices of criticism, you are sadly mistaken. The criticism will continue until you become the leader we prayed you would be.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...4d1703d2a7a_story.html?utm_term=.378f533bc80a


----------



## SirRumpole (17 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Didn't someone call her a black c#nt when she went to work for trump. And the media defended the name calling.




"Someone" is not the President of the USA.


----------



## luutzu (17 August 2018)

basilio said:


> For the full story on Admiral McCraven request to Donald Trump check this out.
> 
> Be interesting to see the fallout here.
> *Revoke my security clearance, too, Mr. President*
> ...





A couple more admin like Trump's and I can just see an American Julius Caesar or two crossing the Potomac to save the republic.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2018)

Great development, revokation of leftist security clearances to match the deplatforming of center left,  center,  center right, and right.

....balance


----------



## SirRumpole (17 August 2018)

wayneL said:


> Great development, revokation of leftist security clearances to match the deplatforming of center left,  center,  center right, and right.
> 
> ....balance




Nothing to do with pay-back or revenge at all, right ?


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Nothing to do with pay-back or revenge at all, right ?




Let's call it natural justice


----------



## IFocus (17 August 2018)

While the bait is thrown to the masses to argue over (nasty leftist/socialists/ists everywhere) the slave labour pay rate stays low (great for business) slave labour working conditions continue to fall but on the bright side the wealth continues to flow to the top 1% paid for by great big tax cuts all defended by true patriots and their culture........truly shocking god help when the next version Trump 2 turns up and doubles down again.

Seriously the left thing is just echo chamber rubbish fed to children

Supreme court ultra conservative even before Trump's appointments.

Majority of the US states are Republican

The House and Senate.....Republican

Democrats........Republican lite, let's face it these guys haven't represented their base for a very long time and Burnie would struggle to get a job in the Australian Labor party who are driven/dominated  by right wing labor movements.

No existing unions of any real size none fu(king zip

No organisation in the US or western world that has any power to make law that is truly lift wing.

US labour rates below poverty levels

Most of the laws currently passed in the US are driven by vested interests (none of which are left wing) not from the masses.

And then there is the defense of Trump..........


----------



## luutzu (17 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> While the bait is thrown to the masses to argue over (nasty leftist/socialists/ists everywhere) the slave labour pay rate stays low (great for business) slave labour working conditions continue to fall but on the bright side the wealth continues to flow to the top 1% paid for by great big tax cuts all defended by true patriots and their culture........truly shocking god help when the next version Trump 2 turns up and doubles down again.
> 
> Seriously the left thing is just echo chamber rubbish fed to children
> 
> ...




Just saw on RT that Sec of Treasury Mnuchin just wrote a directive declaring that the big banks are not, NOT, seriously not, in the financial transaction business. 

What the heck does a bank do if its business somehow does not involve financial transaction? Is it still a bank? Or only a bank when it benefits from the QE and bailout?

But apparently... the big US banks' business is something that qualifies it to receive the "pass-through" tax cuts that every average folk with a LLC or S-corp, whatever that is, is currently receiving. 

How much more tax cuts is that? About $2.5B or so. 

You can't really make these stuff up. It's so blatant now.


----------



## Tisme (17 August 2018)

wayneL said:


> Great development, revokation of leftist security clearances to match the deplatforming of center left,  center,  center right, and right.
> 
> ....balance




In Joh parlance ... he's feeding the chooks.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> While the bait is thrown to the masses to argue over (nasty leftist/socialists/ists everywhere) the slave labour pay rate stays low (great for business) slave labour working conditions continue to fall but on the bright side the wealth continues to flow to the top 1% paid for by great big tax cuts all defended by true patriots and their culture........truly shocking god help when the next version Trump 2 turns up and doubles down again.
> 
> Seriously the left thing is just echo chamber rubbish fed to children
> 
> ...



Big politics, big media, big business, big political biases- let it all burn Ifocus. Thats the beauty of Trump.


----------



## luutzu (17 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Big politics, big media, big business, big political biases- let it all burn Ifocus. Thats the beauty of Trump.




None of those are burnt though. They're more loaded, with cash, than ever.

It's just a reality tv show going global, and deadly.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2018)

luutzu said:


> None of those are burnt though. They're more loaded, with cash, than ever.
> 
> It's just a reality tv show going global, and deadly.



Its the people not the politics that you watch. Trump isn't a savior, hopefully he is the catalyst. 

Still a long road for this sht show to play out though. Democrats still have learnt nothing from the whole saga.


----------



## Tisme (17 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Its the people not the politics that you watch. Trump isn't a savior, hopefully he is the catalyst.
> 
> Still a long road for this sht show to play out though. Democrats still have learnt nothing from the whole saga.




There's now talk that Trump will be reelected, if he wants it and his successor may be even more nationalistically maniacal.


----------



## luutzu (17 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> Its the people not the politics that you watch. Trump isn't a savior, hopefully he is the catalyst.
> 
> Still a long road for this sht show to play out though. Democrats still have learnt nothing from the whole saga.




Why should they learn anything when "the country's already great" and it's all Russia's fault?

Yea, a long, long way to go.


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> There's now talk that Trump will be reelected, if he wants it and his successor may be even more nationalistically maniacal.



The meltdowns would be epic. I'd probably die from laughter.

I don't see it happening though. Too many billionaires funding the dems these midterms. If they get numbers (most likely), its game over in the long run.


----------



## Tisme (17 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> The meltdowns would be epic. I'd probably die from laughter.
> 
> I don't see it happening though. Too many billionaires funding the dems these midterms. If they get numbers (most likely), its game over in the long run.




Tim Pawlenty might tell you a different story.


----------



## IFocus (17 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> The meltdowns would be epic. I'd probably die from laughter.
> 
> I don't see it happening though. Too many billionaires funding the dems these midterms. If they get numbers (most likely), its game over in the long run.





Wont matter if the Dems get up......same mob paying for their election Republican lite.

And the left wing media FFS they are all business with no regard to politics.


----------



## bellenuit (22 August 2018)




----------



## bellenuit (22 August 2018)




----------



## IFocus (22 August 2018)

Bellenuit all very damming........pity its fake news


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> Bellenuit all very damming........pity its fake news



CNN is as close as you get.


----------



## Knobby22 (22 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> CNN is as close as you get.



Fox news
We report, you believe.


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2018)

Knobby22 said:


> Fox news
> We report, you believe.



Well I didn't want to slide that far down the scale. CNN is literally their polar opposite.


----------



## IFocus (22 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> CNN is as close as you get.




The 1st CNN bloke makes a good point if there are no change in the polls for Trump after this which I think in quite likely.


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2018)

As for cohen. Still not enough to take down trump imo.

 The supposed "impeachment" factor is that cohen was given money to pay off the side hussies with campaign funds. 
If trump payed it would have been fine.

 But because his lawyer did without reporting,  it is deemed as a violation.
Bit like how our politicians do it, get caught,  then pay it back without much repercussions.

I don't think they will sink him off this. Sure there is plenty of dirt still to come though.


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> The 1st CNN bloke makes a good point if there are no change in the polls for Trump after this which I think in quite likely.



Cuomo is possibly the worst hater of trump (do a search). Cnn is known for currently running an agenda. They are pushing the extremes on anything to do with trump and won't stop till he is kicked out.

They are exactly what the media shouldn't be doing.


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2018)

But don't worry y'all after November,  Trumps ass is grass. I reckon he might quit if they lose either house. Otherwise dems will impeach.

 I don't know how he handles the pressure. The opposition,  the law, his own side, the media and half the country are like rabid dogs on him. How long can someone seriously last like that.


----------



## cynic (22 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> Bellenuit all very damming........pity its fake news



Easily solved!!

All one needs to do is refer to a long standing reputable news service like this one:

http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/31349/donald-trump-born-in-kenya/


----------



## luutzu (22 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> But don't worry y'all after November,  Trumps ass is grass. I reckon he might quit if they lose either house. Otherwise dems will impeach.
> 
> I don't know how he handles the pressure. The opposition,  the law, his own side, the media and half the country are like rabid dogs on him. How long can someone seriously last like that.




A joke I heard goes something like this... it's a criminal offence to lie to the FBI. So Trump is never going to talk to the FBI.

As long as he managed to not sit down with them, he's going to be alright.


----------



## IFocus (23 August 2018)

A couple of good articles that explain TDS and why its about his supporters rather than his critics. I see comments all the time from his admirers and didn't understand but sort of do now.

Trump is a criminal 

*All Eyes on the Presidency*
A pair of high-profile convictions implicate Donald Trump—but also serve as a reminder that only some people pay the consequences for systemic corruption in America.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/trump-manafort-cohen-corruption/568111/


*Why Trump Supporters Believe He Is Not Corrupt*
What the president’s supporters fear most isn’t the corruption of American law, but the corruption of America’s traditional identity.


https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...trumps-supporters-think-of-corruption/568147/


----------



## moXJO (23 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> A couple of good articles that explain TDS and why its about his supporters rather than his critics. I see comments all the time from his admirers and didn't understand but sort of do now.
> 
> Trump is a criminal
> 
> ...



I think leftie reporters don't have a clue.
Look at Australia. We currently have two parties, both as hopeless as each other at getting anything done. 
Eventually we will get more and more disconnect until we long for our own Trump to just get something done.

Trump isn't trying to push it all around in a circle. Everyone knew beforehand what he was like. It didn't make a difference.
He was a middle finger to both parties over how the political system is being run. 

Democrats still haven't learnt the lesson either. They are literally blind to the fact that it needs to change.


----------



## basilio (23 August 2018)

_Democrats still haven't learnt the lesson either. They are literally blind to the fact that it needs to change. Moxjo_

For what ?  A totally corrupt, liar who uses the office of presdent to enrich his family ?

A scientific illiterate who denies the reality of CC and the consequences this will bring and instead is dismantlling every piece of legislation to attempt to deal with it ?

An environmental vandal who is destroying the capacityof the EPA to protect the air, water and land of the US?

Is the change they need ? Is this the change you support ?


----------



## moXJO (23 August 2018)

basilio said:


> _Democrats still haven't learnt the lesson either. They are literally blind to the fact that it needs to change. Moxjo_
> 
> For what ?  A totally corrupt, liar who uses the office of presdent to enrich his family ?
> 
> ...



Rolling wars, bombing innocents, identity politics,  interfering with foreign governments, media lies and political biases,  flooding in illegals to bolster their support base, globalization, foreign donations/support (bribes), bailouts, attacks on freedom, social media silencing, etc.

Clintons, Bushes, Obamas all made their money from their positions.

CC was politicized by the idiots on the left. And look what happened. Told to many exaggerations and now a whole lot of inaction. Same with identity politics and race. Just put down the facts as known and people can make an informed decision. There is no need to lie to change peoples minds.

You are exactly the same kind of blinded. I am not defending trump because I support his position in a lot of areas. Its the absolute lies that start to blow out of proportion to whats actually going on. 

I like the tears he produces as well. Funny stuff.


----------



## basilio (23 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> CC was politicized by the idiots on the left.




CC is about a scientific reality. The rapid increase in human caused GG increasing global temperatures.

There was a scientific  understanding and agreement on CC in the 1980's.  By the late '80s there was even broad political agreement on doing something about it. Even Margaret Thatcher was on board with recognising the problem and wanting to be part of the solution.

The politicization of CC happened in early 1990's when the fossil fuel industry decided to undermine the real science with lies, and lies and more lies. And they managed to convince the right wingers in the Republican Party that if they didn't swallow their lies and become fellow CC deniers the fossil fuel industry would pull the plug on political donations.

*So stop peddling that absolute rubbish about who politicized CC and stopped anything being done about a situation that is now totally out of control.*


----------



## wayneL (23 August 2018)

I wonder how  the science <cough> would look if there was no political mileage or interference... or financial advantage for researchers?


----------



## basilio (23 August 2018)

wayneL said:


> I wonder how  the science <cough> would look if there was no political mileage or interference... or financial advantage for researchers?




Have a look out the xxxking window Wayne and see what CC reality looks like.

*The research on the reality of CC happening as a result of GG emissions is over*. All the research now is how fast this is happening, what could be the consequences and what can we do to survive.

But don't worry mate.  Your favourite good 'ol boy is still busily destroying anyhthing with the word CC on it to pretend nothing is happening. He'll take care of you..


----------



## moXJO (23 August 2018)

basilio said:


> CC is about a scientific reality. The rapid increase in human caused GG increasing global temperatures.
> 
> There was a scientific  understanding and agreement on CC in the 1980's.  By the late '80s there was even broad political agreement on doing something about it. Even Margaret Thatcher was on board with recognising the problem and wanting to be part of the solution.
> 
> ...



New York underwater yet? 
Or any of those other bare faced lies with amended scientific backup. The tipping point was the lies and dodgy data.

You are absolutely delusional. If you think all those scare tactics to influence people into the feverish ideology of the left didn't lead to apathy once they were found out.

Climate nazi deniers or any other crap people were labeled with for asking questions. 
Trump supporters or anyone that defends him against some of the lies going around are nazis. Common theme occurring. 

I am very open minded when it comes to CC.
 I'm arguing the methods that turned the left into this hive minded attack squad.


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## wayneL (23 August 2018)

basilio said:


> Have a look out the xxxking window Wayne and see what CC reality looks like.
> 
> *The research on the reality of CC happening as a result of GG emissions is over*. All the research now is how fast this is happening, what could be the consequences and what can we do to survive.
> 
> But don't worry mate.  Your favourite good 'ol boy is still busily destroying anyhthing with the word CC on it to pretend nothing is happening. He'll take care of you..



I think I'm a bit older than you, rad. As such I think I looked out the window a few more times than you ever have.

Because of my fraternity I've looked outmore Windows at the countryside and  know more people that have farmed this land for many more decades than I've been alive, in fact as farmers, they have made it their business to look outside the window, take rainfall records and temperature records for up to 90 years.

They see it's dry at the moment, but they see wet times, hot times, cold times, and everything in between, bro.

They see a cycle, they see variations in the weather. But in a ratio of about 10 to one they do not see any overall climate change that is detectable by their own observation.

As I stated many times I think there is some level of detectable climate change but with all the caveat I have also outlined many times. The most sober and balanced of scientific opinion supports that


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## bellenuit (23 August 2018)

She takes her time getting to the point, but it looks like that Trump, and in particular his family, have serious trouble looming on a new front. The first 20 minutes or so are quite revealing. And in anticipation of the usual bleating of fake news, pretty much all of what she is reporting on is from court documents already out there.

I bet the kids are now wishing daddy didn't run for president.


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## SirRumpole (23 August 2018)

bellenuit said:


> She takes her time getting to the point, but it looks like that Trump, and in particular his family, have serious trouble looming on a new front. The first 20 minutes or so are quite revealing. And in anticipation of the usual bleating of fake news, pretty much all of what she is reporting on is from court documents already out there.
> 
> I bet the kids are now wishing daddy didn't run for president.





For those that don't have time to sit through a long video, can you give a summary ?


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## bellenuit (23 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> For those that don't have time to sit through a long video, can you give a summary ?




It concerns a subpoena made on Cohen in the last 24 hours by NY State that is in relation to criminal charges laid by the NY State Attorney General against Trump, Ivanka, his 2 sons and their charitable trust. Claims of money laundering, criminal activity etc. Apparently, a Cohen associate, known as the taxi king, has turned state informant and has been squealing to state prosecutors for the last month or so. Cohen, after receiving the subpoena, seemed more that enthusiastic to talk also. It may even reveal Cohen paid Russian hackers (that bit is speculation). However, being a state prosecution, Trump senior cannot pardon anyone that is convicted and there seems to be plenty of evidence building up to support conviction. Excuse any memory lapses I may have had. It is well with a listen.


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## IFocus (23 August 2018)

wayneL said:


> I think I'm a bit older than you, rad. As such I think I looked out the window a few more times than you ever have.
> 
> Because of my fraternity I've looked outmore Windows at the countryside and  know more people that have farmed this land for many more decades than I've been alive, in fact as farmers, they have made it their business to look outside the window, take rainfall records and temperature records for up to 90 years.
> 
> ...





I think I am a bit older than you .....

My family are farmers going back several generations in WA.......

Some of them farmed marginal country back in the day.

None of them question climate change........none of them.

Some used to breed  horses..........and shoe them Dad still had the forge and metal. 

The end game is not temperature, rainfall etc which will cause lost of live, wars etc but ocean acidification which is proven........science based evidence that's been tested just depends which generation wears it......won't be us who caused it.


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## sptrawler (23 August 2018)

Jeez you guys take all this pantomime seriously, don't you.

The only sensible post, made mention of feeding the chooks.


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## wayneL (23 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez you guys take all this pantomime seriously, don't you.
> 
> The only sensible post, made mention of feeding the chooks.



Actually Im interested to see if ifocus has a shop anvil for sale.


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## sptrawler (23 August 2018)

wayneL said:


> Actually Im interested to see if ifocus has a shop anvil for sale.



I'd say he does, it was probably cast in the midland workshops by the shop steward and delivered to Mandurah in the workshop truck.


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## Tisme (24 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I'd say he does, it was probably cast in the midland workshops by the shop steward and delivered to Mandurah in the workshop truck.




Actually chances would be it was someone here who would have organised that back in the 70's. Gladstone bags took a heavy hiding back in and preceding those years.

Wouldn't have been cast but he big forge hammers would have been busy on that project....probably hard chromed and french polished for a thorough job.


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## Tisme (24 August 2018)

Anyone joined the dots on all those who would hang Trump for telling fibs, but who, themselves, will roll out fantastic tales of climate change above and beyond the facts of science?


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## IFocus (24 August 2018)

wayneL said:


> Actually Im interested to see if ifocus has a shop anvil for sale.




Yeah it's on my bench but not for sale don't have a forge .............family heirloom along with the handmade ladder


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## Junior (24 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Anyone joined the dots on all those who would hang Trump for telling fibs, but who, themselves, will roll out fantastic tales of climate change above and beyond the facts of science?




This is seriously deranged.


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## cynic (24 August 2018)

Tisme said:


> Anyone joined the dots on all those who would hang Trump for telling fibs, but who, themselves, will roll out fantastic tales of climate change above and beyond the facts of science?



And here I was, trying so hard to pretend that I hadn't noticed that particular correlation.


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## Tisme (24 August 2018)

cynic said:


> And here I was, trying so hard to pretend that I hadn't noticed that particular correlation.




You are now in the deranged club LOL


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## wayneL (24 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> Yeah it's on my bench but not for sale don't have a forge .............family heirloom along with the handmade ladder



Bloody hard to come by and the new ones are shyte.


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## IFocus (24 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I'd say he does, it was probably cast in the midland workshops by the shop steward and delivered to Mandurah in the workshop truck.





Haha no it was my fathers anvil who was an out and out National/Joh/Liberal supporter I was the odd one out in the family we didn't discuss politics or unions for the sake of family harmony .

One of my ancestors was a union organiser Dad always said I was a throw back to him .


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## sptrawler (24 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> Haha no it was my fathers anvil who was an out and out National/Joh/Liberal supporter I was the odd one out in the family we didn't discuss politics or unions for the sake of family harmony .
> 
> One of my ancestors was a union organiser Dad always said I was a throw back to him .



My old man was the shop stewart at Dampier pellet plant in 1968, all our family arguments were about cricket, he backed England I backed Australia.


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## bellenuit (25 August 2018)

It seems David Pecker, Trump's closest ally, has flipped. Should be interesting.


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## IFocus (25 August 2018)

bellenuit said:


> It seems David Pecker, Trump's closest ally, has flipped. Should be interesting.





More fake news BS 

How's the hammering Crooked Hillary got and still claims of media bias against Trump.


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## bellenuit (25 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> More fake news BS
> 
> How's the hammering Crooked Hillary got and still claims of media bias against Trump.




What's fake news? And what does your second sentence mean?


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## IFocus (25 August 2018)

bellenuit said:


> What's fake news? And what does your second sentence mean?




When I say "fake news" its meant to be sarcasm as clearly its not.

2nd sentence is about the continued claim by Trump supporters that there is bias against Trump in the media. They cannot see Trumps and his mates brutal use of the media to spew out continuous lies about all and sundry who dare question his behavior or run against him. 

When you look at those articles about Hillary apparently written at the bequest of Trump his hypocrisy is stunning even by US political measures.


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## bellenuit (25 August 2018)

So many Republicans going to jail, who is going to be left to lock up Hillary....


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## moXJO (25 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> 2nd sentence is about the continued claim by Trump supporters that there is bias against Trump in the media. They cannot see Trumps and his mates brutal use of the media to spew out continuous lies about all and sundry who dare question his behavior or run against him.



You know that both can happen, right?


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## IFocus (25 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> You know that both can happen, right?




It is the case, however Trumps behavior is easily the nearest to an authoritarian regime of any US president in my living memory.


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## moXJO (25 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> It is the case, however Trumps behavior is easily the nearest to an authoritarian regime of any US president in my living memory.



And the media has crossed  over the line. Theres a difference to reporting the facts and leading the narrative. That is a lot more dangerous then one president.


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## Tisme (26 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> It is the case, however Trumps behavior is easily the nearest to an authoritarian regime of any US president in my living memory.




Authoritarian regimes don't let the fourth estate do what they are doing.


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## IFocus (26 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> And the media has crossed  over the line. Theres a difference to reporting the facts and leading the narrative. That is a lot more dangerous then one president.




You mean like Fox is doing in the US and recently here where media actually become players?.


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## moXJO (26 August 2018)

IFocus said:


> You mean like Fox is doing in the US and recently here where media actually become players?.



Yes, all of them print rubbish. Both sides  I don't quote fox for a reason.

 Every now and then you get good articles that really investigated the story. But generally you get propaganda or flat out lies.


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## basilio (16 September 2018)

* Bob Woodward: 'Too many people are emotionally unhinged about Trump' *
David Smith in New York  Donald Trump  
The journalist, who has now written about nine US presidents, discusses his new book, Fear, and how he believes the media should have responded to Trump

 @smithinamerica   Fri 14 Sep 2018 06.00 EDT   Last modified on Fri 14 Sep 2018 11.20 EDT  
*Shares* 5742 

It was, Bob Woodward recalls, “an almost Shakespearean moment”. He and a Washington Post colleague were interviewing Donald Trump in March 2016. They asked how Trump defines power. The then presidential candidate replied: “Real power is – I don’t even want to use the word – fear.”

Woodward recalls that it was like “Hamlet’s aside, turning to the audience to say: ‘This is what’s really going on, this is what it’s really about. I want it to be known but I don’t want it to be known.’ That great ambivalence of the politician speaking a dangerous truth.”

Two and a half years, one presidential election and hundreds of hours of interviews later, Trump’s telling choice of word – fear – was the natural choice of title for Woodward’s latest book, a singularly authoritative portrait of a White House teetering on the edge of a cliff. Whereas other accounts have offered soap opera, this is the presidency as Shakespearean tragedy.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/14/bob-woodward-interview-fear-trump-russia


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## bellenuit (16 September 2018)

The significance of Manafort flipping.....


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## Tisme (16 September 2018)

bellenuit said:


> The significance of Manafort flipping.....





It would be good if they would tell us what charges the plea was traded off for. 

Trump of course let it be known they were nought to to do with him and similarly nothing to do with the original Russian probe.


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## bellenuit (17 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> It would be good if they would tell us what charges the plea was traded off for.
> 
> Trump of course let it be known they were nought to to do with him and similarly nothing to do with the original Russian probe.




He would not have been given a plea bargain if it only related to what he has been found guilty of to date or in relation to what he is still to be tried on. Mueller has no interest in that. Mueller knows without doubt that Manafort has a lot more knowledge of other things that involve bigger fish. That is why this is a significant development.


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## Tisme (17 September 2018)

I'm not impressed that lawyers can trade off charges so that the lying perps can squeal with supposed truths. It hinges around the honesty of both prosecutors and impressed witnesses.

"Trump’s former campaign chair, was indicted on a total of 25 different counts by Mueller’s team, related mainly to his past work for Ukrainian politicians and his finances. He had two trials scheduled, and the first ended in a conviction on *eight counts of financial crimes*. To avert the second trial, Manafort struck a plea deal with Mueller in September 2018."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/mueller-indictments-grand-jury


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## bellenuit (17 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> I'm not impressed that lawyers can trade off charges so that the lying perps can squeal with supposed truths. It hinges around the honesty of both prosecutors and impressed witnesses.




It hinges on the integrity of the judicial system. A trial should eventually determine whether any insight obtained from Manafort is true or not. Anything discovered by Mueller, either through plea bargaining or simple investigation, still must stand up in court.


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## Tisme (17 September 2018)

bellenuit said:


> It hinges on the integrity of the judicial system. A trial should eventually determine whether any insight obtained from Manafort is true or not. Anything discovered by Mueller, either through plea bargaining or simple investigation, still must stand up in court.




Yes well there is a real reason why plea deals in Australia don't include rolling over on someone else, quid pro quo. They are only used here to secure a prosecution and to reduce costs & delays; both in the public interest.


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## Tisme (18 September 2018)




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## SirRumpole (18 September 2018)

Tisme said:


> View attachment 89366




I think your epithet could well be applied to the Donald.


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## Tisme (18 September 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I think your epithet could well be applied to the Donald.




 You can imagine the responses when that messianic pic appeared in a twatter feed the chooks post.


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## Darc Knight (18 September 2018)

I just assumed Tis was taking the pi$$.

Trump has a huge ego, symptomatic of his Sociopathy.


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## IFocus (18 September 2018)

It should finish with "to be caught out out and locked up"


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## Logique (17 July 2019)

The Four Horsewomen sure have it:


> *The Four Horsewomen of the American Apocalypse*
> 17th July 2019, Michael Copeman, Quadrant Online:
> https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2019/07/the-four-horsewomen-of-the-american-apocalypse/
> ...According to them, everything was wrong with America. It is a doomed society — only perhaps salvageable by mass unauthorised immigration from Mexico, Central America and parts further south and payment of perhaps a cool trillion dollars in reparations to anybody who had one or more ancestors who may have been slaves...


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## moXJO (17 July 2019)

Logique said:


> The Four Horsewomen sure have it:



These four idiots will be the face of the Democrats for 2020.
Trumps strategy will no doubt throw these four constantly in the spotlight. Apparently an antifa member that was shot dead trying to firebomb a ice detention center. Is being called a terrorist that was influenced by AOC. AOC failed to condemn so now thats the "massage". 
Omar had the al qaeda interview incident and tlaib support for Palestine.
Trump then twitters to set the story and the friendly media do the rest.

So the strategy is to push these four front and center as if they were the new face of the Democrats. Then paint them as traitors to their country.
Pelosi I think realized the damage they are doing. But at the same time is trapped using them to attack trump.

 In the long run this will just push people further to the extremes in either support or opposition. Dems and reps are both playing the game and those in the center must be feeling it.


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## Logique (6 February 2020)

It was quipped, "that's the Constitution she (Pelosi) is tearing up". The Dems are losing their minds


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## basilio (6 February 2020)

Logique said:


> It was quipped, "that's the Constitution she (Pelosi) is tearing up". The Dems are losing their minds
> 
> View attachment 100130



Well you certainly lost yours ages ago.  Perhaps you might find it if you huddle with the lost souls of the Democrats  milling together in anguish looking for signs of  sanity in the US


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 April 2020)

gg


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## Knobby22 (5 January 2023)

Trump makes violent comments about fellow Republicans and racist comments about Mitch McConnell's wife. Don't know how he gets away with such odius behaviour. I suppose his maga supporters have Trump Derangement Syndrome.














						'DEATH WISH'? What Trump and his wannabes did in one weekend should scare us all.
					

In the Republican Party of Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Greene, only those faithful to Trump’s MAGA movement are safe.



					www.usatoday.com


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## wayneL (5 January 2023)

Knobby22 said:


> Trump makes violent comments about fellow Republicans and racist comments about Mitch McConnell's wife. Don't know how he gets away with such odius behaviour. I suppose his maga supporters have Trump Derangement Syndrome.
> View attachment 151239
> 
> 
> ...



Hahahahahaha, odious behaviour omg hahahaha. 

You truly are not aware of the behaviour of the other side? The names Trump has been called? The lies he's been subjected to?


----------



## IFocus (5 January 2023)

Knobby22 said:


> Trump makes violent comments about fellow Republicans and racist comments about Mitch McConnell's wife. Don't know how he gets away with such odius behaviour. I suppose his maga supporters have Trump Derangement Syndrome.
> View attachment 151239
> 
> 
> ...




Yep long been the case.


----------



## The Triangle (5 January 2023)

Knobby22 said:


> Trump makes violent comments about fellow Republicans and racist comments about Mitch McConnell's wife. Don't know how he gets away with such odius behaviour. I suppose his maga supporters have Trump Derangement Syndrome.
> View attachment 151239
> 
> 
> ...



This is 3+ month old news.  There are probably 100 articles about this specific event critical of Trump. What do you mean by get away with?  What did he get away with?


----------



## Knobby22 (5 January 2023)

The Triangle said:


> This is 3+ month old news.  There are probably 100 articles about this specific event critical of Trump. What do you mean by get away with?  What did he get away with?



Threatening and abusing Republicans. His deranged followers don't mind.

Maybe the Republican members have had enough.
It's why Trump's man can't get up in the house. 
Mitch is now openly against him (from todays article) so maybe he won't be getting away with it any longer.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/01/04/biden-mcconnell-kentucky/


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## The Triangle (5 January 2023)

Knobby22 said:


> Threatening and abusing Republicans. His deranged followers don't mind.
> 
> Maybe the Republican members have had enough.
> It's why Trump's man can't get up in the house.
> ...



I really don't think it would make the top 100 list of Trumps most controversial comments.








						Donald Trump: 'It is my hair and it's an amazing thing'
					

The business magnate and TV personality shares his thoughts on success, politics, the royal family – and his hair




					www.theguardian.com
				



Ahh, some gold quotes from Trump from back in the day.  No consequences from this statement either.
_"Mad Alex has a death wish. He is trying to destroy Scotland, and England should stop subsidising the death of Scotland."_


----------



## Knobby22 (5 January 2023)

The Triangle said:


> I really don't think it would make the top 100 list of Trumps most controversial comments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



True. Probably not in the top 100.


----------



## basilio (5 January 2023)

Knobby22 said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/01/04/biden-mcconnell-kentucky/




That is a very insightful story on how Biden and Mcconnell  attempt to demonstrate their capacity to work together for the country.
Also highlights the need for the Republicians to  have a disciplined approach to their narrow margin in Congress if they are going to achieve any of their electoral goals in the next 2 years.


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## wayneL (5 January 2023)

Never a peep when the Dems do it.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 January 2023)

wayneL said:


>




Why does she say if we can't protect children we can't protect anyone? Video is so edited.


----------

