# What can we learn from Anzac day?



## 2020hindsight (4 April 2007)

"The troops were intended to occupy Constantinople - after the Navy had wiped out any opposition"  

let's not forget that the Australian and New Zealand Armies that went to Anzac were 100% volunteers , and were admired whereever they went for their incredible mateship, courage, and humour.   The Brits were in awe of em.

Winnie screwed up.  The man of the Century for his efforts in WWII... - but at Anzac, he simply screwed up. 
http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/pages/history/letter.htm


> My dear Kitchener,
> I have now heard from Carden that he considers it will take him 14 days on which firing is practicable to enter the Sea of Marmora, counting from the 2nd of March. Of course bad weather would prolong, and a collapse of the Turkish resistance at the later forts would shorten this period. But it seems to me we ought now to fix a date for the military concentration so that the arrival of troops can be timed to fit in with the normal fruition of the naval operation.
> 
> The transports for the 30,000 troops from Egypt, less those already taken to Lemnos, will all have arrived at Alexandria between the 8th and the 15th, that is to say the troops could be landed at Bulair or, alternatively, if practicable, taken through the Straits to Constantinople about the 18th instant.
> ...



It reads like invites to an international  birthday party 


> http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/ It is hard to find a single battle or campaign that has had such a widespread significant social as well as military effect as that of the (relatively small) Gallipoli Campaign.
> If fact, it's social effects were more long lasting and greater than it's military ones.
> 
> It "pushed" Australian and New Zealand into a new found national pride, it was one of the markers of the end of "gun boat diplomacy" and it helped destroy the Ottoman & British Empires. It also helped create the "new" Turkey.





Timeline:-  http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/pages/history/timeline.htm


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## 2020hindsight (4 April 2007)

http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/


> Australia has only ever officially recognised (with a memorial on Anzac Avenue Canberra ACT) one enemy commander. It is Mustafa Kemal (Atatürk).  New Zealand did the same. Atatürk NZ. These are probably the only memorials in the world to an enemy commander.



Note that the Turks agreed to rename the cove Anzac Cove.


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## billhill (4 April 2007)

I think what ANZAC day tells me is that just as our forefathers made sacrifices to protect the soverignty and prosperity of this nation we should all be expected to do the same when the need arises. This nation is greater then any single person and we should kiss the ground everyday for the fortunate lives we live. In reality we really are the lucky country.

Lest we Forget


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## 2020hindsight (4 April 2007)

Bill, fantastic site this one - in keeping with your post, and also the Turkish (and Kiwi) points of view.  Some fantastic quotes, and done with real reverence - I doubt I've ever seen such a website  fantastic.


> Ambassador Okandan says: "There are hardly any wars which the past belligerent parties jointly commemorate. Gallipoli serves as a message of peace to the whole world." There, at least, is something to celebrate.


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## wayneL (4 April 2007)

This one always gets me...

"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives.. you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours.. You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears. Your sons are now living in our bosom and are in peace. Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well"
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk


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## 2020hindsight (5 April 2007)

I for one never realised the French were there (in significant numbers)  - certainly never realised more French were killed than Aussies    - excuse moi , mes amies francais (francais'?)  (if that's wrong blame the missus lol - I dont speak french)

Aussies  7594 killed (although Aust war memorial says 8709 killed)
Kiwis 2431 killed
Turkish 66,000 killed
British 43,000 killed
French 8,000 killed


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## constable (5 April 2007)

What can we learn from ANZAC day? .............we dont know how good we've got it.
I see my 2 year old and protect him like the most precious thing on earth, but i will never forget the sacrifices thousands of men and women made to make this the country that he is free to grow up in ....the lucky country.

Lest we forget.


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## 2020hindsight (5 April 2007)

wayneL said:


> This one always gets me...
> 
> "Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives.. you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours.. You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears. Your sons are now living in our bosom and are in peace. Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well"
> Mustafa Kemal Ataturk



thanks Wayne - I was trying to find that one


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## Sean K (5 April 2007)

Couple of photos I took at Gallipoli a few years ago here:

http://travellintrader.blogspot.com/

The one with the quote from Ataturk brought tears to my eyes. Hope you have all read it before.


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## Sean K (5 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> thanks Wayne - I was trying to find that one



You guys beat me to it. Well, this is where it actually is.


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## Stan 101 (5 April 2007)

I've learnt never to leave my Anzac biscuits in the same pantry as my Turkish delights at this time of year because you can be sure the English muffins won't be of any help if trouble breaks out..

But seriously, Anzac day is the only thing that pulls on my otherwise nonexistant, patriotic heart strings. Remembering as a child playing bugle during a dawn service at a local bowls club and seeing the weathered and time warn faces of experience reminisce on the good times and the bad. The ghosts of old friends still lingering beside them as they bring their early morning rum to their lips.  Those young men and women gave up their innocence, their dreams and futures for us; rightly or wrongly.

So what can we learn? There will always be selfless people in this world and there will always be selfish people in this world, I guess.
It probably fair to say that humans are not always humanitiarians, especially when it comes to greed.
Maybe we should all try to capture the emotions and thought processors of what our Anzacs have had to endure as they reconciled their helplessness, their hate, fear, and anger of the enemy into one of forgiveness and acceptance.

cheers,


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## bvbfan (5 April 2007)

I am more proud of ANZAC day than any other day is this country.

It may not mean much for me to say this but as a person who was born outside of Australia I feel this day is more important than Australia Day or any other day.

Oh and I do like the ANZAC day battle on the MCG too...go PIES ;P


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## Sean K (5 April 2007)

bvbfan said:


> Oh and I do like the ANZAC day battle on the MCG too...go PIES ;P



Go Dons!!! See you there BVB.


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## constable (5 April 2007)

kennas said:


> Go Dons!!! See you there BVB.




Essendon suck! But they always give me the fond memory of the pies whipping their butts in the first afl grandfinal.  
go pies!!



(sorry 2020 little off track)


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## greggy (5 April 2007)

For me, its a day of remembering the sacrifice of all the military personnel who have died fighting for this great nation and also for thanking those who've served us. Working for the Defence Department, I naturally attend the Dawn Service, watch the Parade and then have the odd drink at the pub.  Afternoon, off to the footy to see the Pies thrash the Bombers at the MCG.


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## Julia (5 April 2007)

Stan 101 said:


> I've learnt never to leave my Anzac biscuits in the same pantry as my Turkish delights at this time of year because you can be sure the English muffins won't be of any help if trouble breaks out..
> 
> But seriously, Anzac day is the only thing that pulls on my otherwise nonexistant, patriotic heart strings. Remembering as a child playing bugle during a dawn service at a local bowls club and seeing the weathered and time warn faces of experience reminisce on the good times and the bad. The ghosts of old friends still lingering beside them as they bring their early morning rum to their lips.  Those young men and women gave up their innocence, their dreams and futures for us; rightly or wrongly.
> 
> ...



Great post, Stan 101.

As a schoolgirl we didn't have Anzac Day as a school holiday.  Instead we went to school as usual and spent the day knitting socks/scarves etc for the returned soldiers.  The teachers participated in this, and spent the time talking about the war, the sacrifices made for us etc.  It was a lesson I never forgot and every Anzac Day remember sitting in those classrooms trying to make what was probably an unwearable item for the old soldiers.


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## 2020hindsight (5 April 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgq5J6aaZQ  last post

Herewith the Discovery channel version ,  - if poss watch the 5th in the series ( only 6.5 minutes) including the bit that corrects the movie "Gallipoli " about the attack at the Neck - the order was made by an Aussie, not a Pom, and he went on to become a Brig Gen.  
It also shows the entire objective was nonsensical - the view from the local mountain, Achi Baba, their objective for first day , - in fact never reached after 8 months (see first photo) - did not even cover the area of the Narrows (Dardanelles) that they were supposed to be able to fire on and control.  (second photo).  Third photo I believe (may be wrong) is Ataturk. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybc0WEhUW8U&mode=related&search=  Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 1 of 5 (10 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIPV7Haa7rU&mode=related&search= Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 2 of 5 (10 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvkEP5RozAE&mode=related&search=  Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 3 of 5 (10 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWbx4X68epw&mode=related&search=  Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 4 of 5 (10 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6J60dNJ1Lk&mode=related&search= *Battlefield Detectives - The Gallipoli Catastrophe 5 of 5*  (6.5 mins)

Conclusion is that no amount of courage or leadership could ever have achieved anything at Anzac.  PS Churchill resigned when they pulled out of Anzac 8 months (I think) after landing.

The last two photos match the footage talking about the Neck (as per the movie, Gallipoli) - 300 men lost in 15 mins = 1 per 3 seconds.


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## 2020hindsight (5 April 2007)

Here are some comments about Ataturk - and also a theory of how he was eventually beaten (see below, TE Lawrence involvement maybe?) ( Ataturk was otherwise known as Mustafa Kemal - lol he wanted to be called "Oz" after Gallipoli, but they gave him "Ataturk"....) 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._E._Lawrence


> With the passage of surname law on November 24, 1934, he asked to acquire the surname "Oz", but presented by the Turkish National Assembly with the surname "Atatürk" (meaning "Father Turk" or "Ancestor Turk"), hence Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.[1] He is revered by the people of Turkey as the Father of the Nation. .....
> 
> On 25 April 1915 (Anzac Cove), he met the enemy in the hills, held them, and retook the high ground. Largely owing to him and his command, the Australian and New Zealand forces were contained and the landing force failed to reach its objectives.[2] Mustafa Kemal said to his troops:  *I don’t order you to attack, I order you to die. In the time it takes us to die, other troops and commanders can come and take our places*.[2]....
> 
> Mustafa Kemal became the outstanding front-line commander and gained much respect from his former enemies for his chivalry in victory. The Mustafa Kemal Atatürk Memorial has an honoured place on ANZAC Parade in Canberra, Australia. Mustafa Kemal's commemorating speech on the loss of thousands of Turkish and Anzac soldiers in Gallipoli stays at Anzac Cove.



After Gallipoli Ataturk goes to Palestine - and is "beaten" (at least he runs out of indians who are prepared to take on the Arabs).  "We are like a cotton thread drawn across (the English) path" etc


> Sinai and Palestine Campaign, 1917
> Sinai and Palestine Campaign in 1918, which Mustafa Kemal was commanding 7th Army from Nablus.His command of the 2nd Army was cut short, as he was transferred to Sinai and Palestine Campaign. He was assigned to the 7th Army. After a short visit to the 7th Army HQ, he returned to Istanbul on October 7. He joined the crown prince Mehmed Vahdettin on a visit to Germany. During this trip he fell ill and stayed in Vienna for medical treatment.
> 
> He returned to Aleppo on August 28, 1918 and resumed the command of the 7th Army. His headquarters were in Nablus Palestine. He was under Liman von Sanders, whose group headquarters were in Nazareth. Mustafa Kemal studied Syria thoroughly once again and visited the front line. His conclusion was that Syria was in a pitiable state (the 1915-1917 period had left 500,000 Syrian casualties to famine.)[9] There was no Ottoman civil governor or commander. There was an abundance of English propaganda and English secret agents were everywhere. The people hated the government and looked forward to the arrival of the English as soon as possible. The enemy was stronger than his forces were in men and equipment. He said "We are like a cotton thread drawn across his path."[10]
> ...



Now here's that theory (of mine) ... that he ended up in Palestine, (no question) , and was beaten (arguably) by the likes of Lawrence of Arabia. (unproven that he even met Lawrence, but it seems to fit the jigsaw at first glance, IMO)...

So  if that is correct, then a man who is pretty much a lone ranger in white robes, whose only strength is the fact that he trusts Arabs / Palestinians / etc, and in turn is worshipped by them ... that this man wins in the end over the mighty Ataturk, when the combined Anzacs ,poms and French couldn't at Gallipopli ?    (just a theory)

PS as that discovery channel youtube concluded - it was as much the terrain as anything that beat the Anzacs at Gallipoli.  - No amount of courage or leadership could have won there .

PPS "T. E. Lawrence was the *second of five illegitimate sons *  ?? (lol) of Sir Thomas Robert Tighe Chapman, Bt., an Anglo-Irish landowner. Lawrence's mother had originally been hired to care for Chapman's four daughters by *his ex-wife, whom he left because she had a "religious madness" and made his life impossible*."
 - interesting origins there Lawrence  sounds like the classic dysfunctional family they have on the TV sitcoms, lol.


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## 2020hindsight (6 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Now here's that theory (of mine) ... that he ended up in Palestine, (no question) , and was beaten (arguably) by the likes of Lawrence of Arabia. .....
> a man who is pretty much a lone ranger in white robes, whose only strength is the fact that he trusts Arabs / Palestinians / etc, and in turn is worshipped by them ... that this man wins in the end over the mighty Ataturk, when (bullets failed)



I guess the point I was trying to make here was that, when it comes to the old quote WHAM BAM THANK YOU etc. ..

the WHAM (Winning the hearts and minds)
is more important than the BAM (bullets and missiles)   

PS Current trends in world wide "diplomatic leverage" seem to prefer 
THANKs  (They have a nuke koming soon).


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## noirua (6 April 2007)

I was going to write something, perhaps I thought it was wise, but then, if something is so terrible as this I suddenly feel numb and realise nothing really fits, tears fill my eyes and the screen looks blurred.


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## Lucky (6 April 2007)

Anzac Biscuits  	  E-mail
Written by Grandma Doffy   

Traditional Australian fare.


1 cup dessicated coconut
1 cup flour
1/2 cup butter
1 level teaspoon baking soda
2 cups rolled oats
1 cup sugar
2 tablespoons golden syrup
2 tablespoons boiling water

Mix dry ingredients, melt butter & syrup together in small saucepan. Dissolve soda in boiling water, add to dry ingredients. Cook until golden brown on 180c


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## 2020hindsight (7 April 2007)

Here's one encouraging peace and enjoyment of life.  Just some kid!!
what would she know ??!

I posted it before on the depression thread. 

http://www.wisdomquotes.com 
"The best remedy for those who are afraid, lonely or unhappy is to go outside, somewhere where they can be quiet, alone with the heavens, nature and God. Because only then does one feel that all is as it should be and that God wishes to see people happy, amidst the simple beauty of nature...."

If I tell you the author I think it will mean more.

Here are some clues ....
Only 13 years old in 1942 when the family went into hiding.    
wrote a diary which, apart from being translated in most languages,  also became an opera. 
"Described as the work of a mature and insightful mind.. " -  well not bad for 13 anyway.
Lived in Amsterdam , initials AF. 
I'm sure you've guessed, 

and the irony of that quote .. "the best remedy to being unhappy is to go outside" .....sheesh - as if she could do that.


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## Wysiwyg (7 April 2007)

We can be reminded that war is pain and suffering.Pain and suffering is what everyone will experience in their lives.

An individual or group inflicts pain and suffering on others and these actions are returned.So it is forever but war affects the most.


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## chops_a_must (7 April 2007)

Far from being a day of patriotism, to me it is a reminder of the effects of blind patriotism and unquestioning belief in an ideology.


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## 2020hindsight (7 April 2007)

Freberg VC of New Zealand - a 1 man landing - awarded DSO. 
There are many myths exposed on that (brilliant) digger's website.  http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/pages/history/myths-gallipoli.htm 
summary only :-

(Note,  I'm surprised at some of these comments myself, especially the fifth one  - don't shoot me - I'm just the messenger , just cutting and pasting folks.   Minimum of typos that way  .. not like the bloke who was told to run to HQ with the message "send reinforcements, we're going to advance" - and being a bit hard of hearing, he dutifully informed HQ "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance."   

lets start with this one which is NOT a myth....

"The landing was just the first day in an eight-month campaign that would claim almost 9000 (8000?) Australian lives. The long agony on the peninsula became the most common shared experience of Australian soldiers on Gallipoli. Men hung on through the months of siege warfare in the trenches and tunnels, continuously under fire, exposed to the harsh climate, subsisting on inadequate rations and weakened by disease. *From their experience emerged the Anzac legend – celebrating the bravery and sacrifice, endurance, resourcefulness, and humour in adversity of ordinary men – and a story worthy of telling accurately*."



> *Myth 1: The Anzac landing was heavily opposed *The blood-stained beach of Anzac Cove, Australian soldiers scrambling ashore under a hail of machine-gun fire, and bodies littering the shoreline. This has been the popular image of the Anzac landing for 90 years.
> 
> The reality was very different. *When the first wave of 1500 Australian troops landed on April 25, 1915, fewer than 200 Turkish soldiers defended the shore*. Two companies guarded the coast in scattered outposts. They had no continuous trench lines or entanglements and no machine-guns in the immediate area. The coastline was lightly defended to avoid heavy losses from naval gunfire. Three Turkish divisions were quartered inland to be rushed forward to meet any large invasion.





> *Myth 2: The Anzac troops were landed in the wrong place *
> The most persistent myth of the Gallipoli campaign is that the Anzacs were landed at the wrong place and that this led directly to the failure of their assault.
> 
> The Australians were intended to land on a 3000m front at “Z beach”, 1.6km north of Gaba Tepe. When the first troops were towed ashore in darkness, they found themselves landing almost 2km north of this spot.   ... is simply that the landing boats lost direction in the dark and, lacking familiar landmarks, veered northwards.
> ...





> *Myth 3: The Anzac commanders displayed superior ability to the British commanders .*
> Some British commanders on Gallipoli seemed to personify military incompetence, most notably General Sir Ian Hamilton, through his ineffectual command of the combined British armies; Lieutenant General Aylmer Hunter-Weston in his callous squandering of the 29th Division; and the doddering Lieutenant General Sir Frederick Stopford, who oversaw the debacle at Suvla.  *But criticism of British commanders has obscured poor command decisions and failures of command at all levels in the Australian force. Some were apparent from the first hours of the landing. *
> 
> Colonel Ewen Sinclair-MacLagan, who commanded the 3rd Australian Brigade, the first wave to land, made a crucial decision which thwarted the entire Anzac operation. ... unaccountably halted the advance of his main force on the Second Ridge, just 1km short of their objective. ........
> ...





> *Myth 4: The Australians overran their objectives *
> Many soldiers later believed they lost all chance of victory because, in their eagerness, they overran their objectives and pushed too far inland. Some senior officers even used this to explain the failure of the landing. The Australian units consisted largely of hastily prepared volunteers, trained and equipped for open warfare. Their enthusiasm, inexperience and their orders to advance at all costs drove many small groups to advance far from their main units. Several groups got further inland than any Australians would for the rest of the campaign, although they did not hold their positions beyond that first day. Some men reached Scrubby Knoll on Third Ridge – their initial objective. *Others climbed the slopes of Baby 700 and Battleship Hill but were either cut off or forced to pull back. The remains of some were still there in 1919 after the war. But these men were few in number*. By the 1930s the official historian had discovered most of their names. They were not representative of the Anzacs as a whole. No Australians went beyond the objective set for the landing force and comparatively few even reached it.





> *Myth 5: The Anzac soldiers displayed superior fighting spirit to the British soldiers *
> The bravery of the majority of Australian troops on the first day is unquestioned. A New Zealand soldier who witnessed the Australians on April 25 wrote that they displayed “no orders, no proper military ‘team work’, no instructions, just absolute heroism”.
> 
> But there had been doubts about the untested Anzacs. British Secretary of State for War, Lord Kitchener, considered them “good enough if all that is contemplated is a cruise around the Sea of Marmora”.
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (7 April 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Far from being a day of patriotism, to me it is a reminder of the effects of blind patriotism and unquestioning belief in an ideology.



chops I guess I have equally divided emotions on that score myself - Anzac day and any day 
I like to imagine to myself what the diggers would be telling us were they ghosts sitting on our shoulders - and I gotta feeling they would be telling us "beware of war folks, not all that it's made out to be by the pollies (who sit at home throughout)".


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## 2020hindsight (7 April 2007)

I guess you'd have to assume that prayers were offered up by both the Aussies and the Turks.  My suspicion is that the various Gods looked on and wondered where they had screwed up , that men would want to slaughter each other like this.  

As Napolean said long ago, (paraphrasing)  religion is excellent stuff for keeping the common people quiet - and presumably for filling the soldiers with an unrealistic optimism despite the odds.

http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/pages/history/landing-txt.htm
There's a vague reference here to Keith Murdoch, camparing him with Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett, but I don't quite understand that one. 

The beachhead looks pretty orderly - I think one of the first casualties was one of the Sappers (engineers) who were sent ashore in the very first boats to start drilling for water.  (water became a real problem of course). 


> Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett, the journalist-adventurer from Fleet Street who had more to do with exposing scandals at the Dardanelles than Australia's Keith Murdoch (Father of Rupert Murdoch of newspaper and cable TV fame ).
> He was always broke, lived above his means and sometimes forgot that he was supposed to be an observer rather than a participant.
> 
> Most of his gloomy predictions about the campaign came true.


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## 2020hindsight (7 April 2007)

Here's a photo I found on youtube .. 
modern warfare waged by kids ....

"How do you judge a small boy born in bedlam, and bought up with bullet and bomb,
and forced to take sides since his age four or five, with rebel or junta or com?
how different from sons who grabbed rusty old guns, and told to report to the Somme?
yet they were our heroes, (?) Aussies or Austrian, Prussian of Polish or Pom...?
...
Empathy mate, he's the victim of fate
Teach him guitar 'stead of military gait,
Half a chance gladly , he'd tone down the hate,
Gladly swap rifle for song ...  "etc


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## 2020hindsight (7 April 2007)

http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/pages/history/18_march.htm
Here's something I (yet again) wasn't aware of - and I share it for what it's worth.  There was a previous attempt to attack the Turks at the Dardanelles - Naval power only on 18 March 1915.  Apparently 
a) it was poorly led, and 
b) nevertheless, the Turks who fell are much more revered than those who fell to Anzac bullets .

Speaking of poorly led, one Admiral had a nervous breakdown just thinking about the attack!?


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## 2020hindsight (8 April 2007)

Maybe we refined our sense of humour ?


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## 2020hindsight (8 April 2007)

Maybe, "don't broadcast your punches (?)"...


> The Royal Navy made a half hearted attack on the forts in November 1914, instead of forcing the narrows and steaming into the Sea of Marmara. All this achieved was to alert the Turks to their vulnerability and they then laid mines and strengthened the defences so that when the Royal Navy tried again 3 months later it was much more dangerous.   The "Spirit of Nelson" was badly missing.



Maybe, "never promote a stupid man above a capable one on seniority alone" (mainly Britsh casualties at Suvla Bay it seems )


> The Suvla landing was to be made by the newly formed British IX Corps, initially comprising two brigades of the 10th (Irish) Division and the entire 11th (Northern) Division. Command of IX Corps was given to Lieutenant-General Sir Frederick Stopford. British military historian J.F.C. Fuller said of Stopford that he had "no conception of what generalship meant" and indeed he was appointed not on his experience (he had seen little combat and had never commanded men in battle) or his energy and enthusiasm (he was aged 61 and had retired in 1909) *but because of his position on the list of seniority*. Hamilton had requested either Lieutenant-General Julian Byng or Lieutenant-General Henry Rawlinson, both experienced Western Front corps commanders, but both were junior to Lieutenant-General Sir Bryan Mahon, commander of the 10th Division and so, by a process of elimination, Stopford was selected. ..... Despite facing light opposition, the landing at Suvla was mismanaged from the outset and quickly reached the same stalemate conditions that prevailed on the Anzac and Helles fronts. On 15 August, *after a week of indecision and inactivity*, the British commander at Suvla, Lieutenant-General *Sir Frederick Stopford was dismissed *
> ...
> The British senior officers were old, inexperienced, dismissive of casualties and did not trust each other. Hamilton was scared of Kitchener, Stopford was in his first ever combat command and out of his depth and Hunter-Weston was a murderous butcher of British troops *unrivalled until Haig gained control in France   *


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## 2020hindsight (8 April 2007)

Maybe ... have a plan ? (sheesh)
Monash - The Aussie Jew who won WWI 

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/monash.htm
Interesting to read about Sir John Monash - (some say he won WWI) :-
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Revie...004/11/25/1101219665809.html?from=moreStories (Monash: The outsider who won the war)


> Field Marshal Montgomery, the famous British army commander in the Second World War (a junior officer in the First World War), later wrote: "*I would name Sir John Monash as the best general on the western front in Europe*. "
> 
> "*The main thing is always to have a plan; if it is not the best plan, it is at least better than no plan at all*". Monash
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (8 April 2007)

speaking of kids in war, how cool was this kid (and tough - and obviously homesick)  - 
died of enteric (typhoid) fever), aged 14 y 9 m.


> enteric fever :- An acute, highly infectious disease caused by a bacillus (Salmonella typhi) transmitted chiefly by contaminated food or water and characterized by high fever, headache, coughing, intestinal hemorrhaging, and rose-colored spots on the skin



http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/young-anzac.htm


> Lone Pine (cemetery & memorial) is mostly for the 3,700 Australians and New Zealanders who, like Burton VC, have no known grave and the 1,200 who, like Shout VC, were buried at sea. Their names are on stone panels at the foot of the pylon.  Private James Martin is listed here. He was a farmhand from Victoria who left for Gallipoli on June 28 1915.
> 
> He spent some hours in the water after the Southland was torpedoed near Lemnos and reached Anzac on September 8.
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (9 April 2007)

a sense of proportion maybe.
in all 120,000 killed at Gallipoli -  horrible but compare Stalingrad in WWII, where the Russians probably lost more civilians than that, plus 1.7 to 2 million soldiers killed (both sides). 
Here is the statue to Mother Russia, "biggest monument in the world".   Note the acculades given to the people of Stalingrad by King George VI after the war.  
Interesting that there are a heap of sister cities around the world, including two in Germany.  Again you would have to assume that "time heals all wounds".  ... until the next time  



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamayev_Kurgan The battle saw a decisive Soviet victory over Axis forces on the Eastern front of World War II.
> 
> When forces of the German 6th Army launched their attack against the city centre of Stalingrad on 13 September 1942, Mamayev Kurgan (appearing in military maps as "Height 102.0") saw particularly fierce fighting between the German attackers and the defending soldiers of the Soviet 62nd Army. Control of the hill became vitally important, as it offered control over the city. To defend it, the Soviets had built strong defensive lines on the slopes of the hill, including trenches, barbed-wire and minefields. The Germans pushed forward against the hill, taking heavy casualties. When they finally captured the hill, they started firing on the city centre, as well as on the railway station Stalingrad-1 under the hill. They captured the railway station on 14 September.
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (9 April 2007)

next time we do our tipping competition, maybe we should spare a thought for folks in WW2 - remember that prevoius generations had to deal with statistics like this ... I have sorted them high to low percentage deaths per head of population   (2.5% of the entire population of the world killed, 62 - 72 million, estimates vary widely etc )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
Note East Timor is "right up there" (5th place with 11%; - ahead of Germany even; even ahead of Singapore;    
note also Aus well down the list  33rd at 0.58%).



> The total estimated human loss of life caused by World War II, irrespective of political alignment, was roughly 72 million people. The civilian toll was around 46 million, the military toll about 26 million. The Allies lost around 61 million people, and the Axis lost 11 million. (Note that some Axis countries switched sides and reentered the war on the side of the Allies; those nations are included in the Allied count, regardless of when the deaths occurred.) There was a disproportionate loss of life and property; some nations had a higher casualty rate than others, due to a number of factors including military tactics, crimes against humanity, economic preparedness and the level of technology.
> 
> Casualties by country
> The casualties of World War II were suffered disproportionately by the various participants. This is especially true regarding civilian casualties. The following chart gives data on the casualties suffered by each country, along with population information to show the relative impact of losses.


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 April 2007)

"He ain't heavy, he's my brother."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7HPqi5uVeo
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/ww2/pages-2aif-cmf/fuzzy-wuzzy.htm
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/ww2/pages-2aif-cmf/fuzzy-wuzzy2.htm 
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/ww2/pages-2aif-cmf/fuzzy-wuzzy3.htm 
(Note that there are photos on this website of people actually being stretcher-borne by the Fuzzy Wuzzys, but watermarked "do not copy" for some reason.  - you'll have to visit that website if you want to see them)


> 1942 was a terrible time when an invasion of Australia by the Japanese Imperial Forces looked almost inevitable.   Diggers were fighting and dying on lonely jungle tracks in almost impenetrable jungle in mountain ranges so high that it was very cold at night time.
> 
> *It was then that we found a new set of friends.   The men of the tribes of Papua and later of New Guinea flocked to help the Aussies.*
> 
> Some fought independently because the Japanese mistreated them, something that the civilian Australian Patrol Officers had never done. *Many were murdered by the Japanese. Naturally this built up a huge degree of loathing for the invaders.*  Some fought in organised Units and their story is told elsewhere on this website. However, they acted a bearers, mostly. They carried food and ammo forward and the wounded back. By so doing they created a legend. They were often praised as being as "gentle as a bush nurse".



one of two poems on that website 


> MOTHER' S REPLY - THE FUZZY WUZZY ANGELS OF PNG
> Poem posted on diggers website, anon.
> 
> We, the Mother's of Australia
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 April 2007)

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/ww2/pidgin/03.htm
Some pidgin on this site 



> IM I MAN BOLONG SINGSING TRU.
> He is a man fond of parties.




I wonder if they were cocktail parties , lol
and whether there was more **** than tail as usual 

This poem also on that website - author given (a sapper / engineer) Sapper H "Bert" Beros of the 7th Div, 2nd AIF


> THE "FUZZY WUZZY" ANGELS
> 
> Many a mother in Australia
> When the busy day is done
> ...



TAIM JAPAN I KUMAP (at the time Japan came) 
PLENTY POLISBOI I KOAIT LONG KANAKA (many police boys went into the bush (long kanaka)). 
GUT PELA PASIN. (Good fella, person to do this). 
NAU GUVMAN SIGAUT IM OL KAM PUTIM NUMBA GEN (Now the Government wants them all to come and put his number (badge) on again (go back to work)). 
YU KAM PAINIM MIPELA I NOGAT TROUBLE. (You can find me, I won't make trouble for you).
GUVMAN 1 TOK (The Government is part of your family)


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## 2020hindsight (10 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Some pidgin on this site



DOG E NOGOT GRASS OLESAME PISIN  dog doesn't have feathers like a pigeon

"Grass" = feathers in this case apparently 
I seem to recall that "FACE GRASS" = beard , and
"ASS GRASS" = pubic hair and nether regions


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 April 2007)

the concept of "a disastrous victory".

I hope I have most of this correct ( mainly from memory) 
If you read Churchill's "Second World War" (6 volumes) you will find he gives everyone concerned at Crete massive praise (Brits Kiwis, Aussies Greeks, local Crete partisans) - but the Kiwis in particular.   You start to understand why we (NZ and Aus) are so closely linked , and why , lol we fight cricket matches so vehemently in this corner of the world - we have fought side by side in far distant corners as well.  

When it comes to rugby, cricket etc, even the best of families have sibling punchups , lol - half the fun of being in a family 

The other thing about Crete and Greece (as  Churchill points out) , he was juggling many balls in the air - by going into Greece we were always on a hiding to nothing, but it helped win the world's attention (and the USA domestic attention) to "the cause".  Britain was shaming them into the war.   They were proving that they were prepared to take the fight to the Nazis - not just defend their island home.  Also the thousands killed in Crete took out the creme of the German parachutists, and they were never used again (at least never in anything like those numbers).    They also distracted Hitler from a quick assault on Russia , using up precious oil (as I recall).   Forgetting Gallipoli (WWI) for a minute, Churchill always had more than one reason for what he did in WW2, and you'd be hard pressed to find a better man for the job.  A genius of course. As he used to say "do what you can NOW, with what you've got".   (And reading more about Gallipoli, had the navy not piked out twice before calling in the army(Anzacs etc) - and had the army only been used to secure Constantinople - as Churchill originally intended, then maybe history would be kinder to him on that score - just a theory after reading some more on it researching for these posts ) 

Those volumes of Churchills make a brilliant read by the way - Churchill of course had access to memos and despatches that the rest of the world didn’t.  Plus he has such a magic way with words.   So when he said "history will be kind to me - I intent to write it" ,  he wasn't kidding! 

It must have been bludy difficult coming to terms with these slaughters (for the loved ones back home) , but as Churchill points out - quoting Duke Of Wellington -  it was such a close fought thing. (and reading between the lines in those volumes, stalling the Germans in Crete could well have made the Russian defence of Stalingrad viable, etc.)


> http://www.explorecrete.com/preveli/battle-of-crete.html Crete was the scene of the largest German Airborne operation of the war, and the first time in history that an island had been taken by airborne assault. Afterwards, Crete was dubbed the graveyard of the Fallschirmjager (German Parachutists); they suffered nearly 4000 killed and missing in the assault. It was also the first time the Germans had encountered stiff partisan activity, with women and even children getting involved in the battle......
> 
> Here the German paratroopers were opposed by New Zealanders who engaged them with small arms and heavy weapons fire from olive groves offering perfect camouflage for snipers and machine gun positions. The isolated German elements made little headway against the well-entrenched enemy forces....
> 
> Turning to Student, the Fuhrer said quietly: "Of course, General you know that after Crete we shall never do another Airborne operation. The parachute arm is one that relies entirely on surprise. That surprise factor has now exhausted itself...the day of the Paratroops is over".





> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Greece_during_World_War_II By June 1, the evacuation of Crete by the Allies was complete and the island was under German occupation. In light of the heavy casualties suffered by the elite 7th Flieger Division, Adolf Hitler forbade further airborne operations. General Kurt Student would dub Crete "the graveyard of the German paratroopers" and a* "disastrous victory."[/*quote]


----------



## 2020hindsight (10 April 2007)

Further to previous post - concerning the delay that Greece and Crete made to Hitler attacking Russia ...

and how brave were the Greeks to take on the Axis  - sheesh , they must've known they'd be cleaned up bigtime.   - and at the end of the day, more than 4% of Greeks were killed compared to only 0.6% of aussies (per head of polulation) - see previous tabulated post for that one). 


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Greece_during_World_War_II Military history of Greece during World War II
> 
> *Greece dealt the first victory for the allies by resisting initial attempts of Italian invasion and pushing Mussolini's forces back into Albania.[1] Hitler was reluctantly forced to send forces and delay the invasion of the Soviet Union by six weeks. This is considered the turning point of the war as the German invasion was disastrous as a result of the Russian winter*.[2] The Germans also met fierce resistance on the island of Crete as the paratroopers suffered almost 7,000 casualties.[3] These heavy losses eliminated the option of a massive airborne invasion of the Soviet Union and further expansion in the Mediterranean saving Malta, Gibraltar, Cyprus, and the Suez Canal from airborne invasion.



sorry if this is boring you - I find it fascinating , and wow , the information on wikipedia etc is phenomenal.    Please feel free to share any of your own theories etc of the wars - there are strangely enough positives in the way men behave in these otherwise tragic events.  

Weary Dunlop's story of the war for instance, what a read!!  the Aussies on the Burma Rail lost far far fewer than the Brits of course - and all due to Weary and his organisational skills which avoided a lot of the disease.  Then again, it was obviously indescribably horrific.


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 April 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpRuKyksxks  GOODNIGHT SAIGON  Billy Joel


> GOODNIGHT SAIGON  Billy Joel
> We met as soul mates   On parris island
> We left as inmates    From an asylum
> And we were sharp   As sharp as knives
> ...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYJN-_veJ80 I was only nineteen by redgum is a classic aussie war song


> I WAS ONLY NINETEEN
> Mum and Dad and Denny saw the passing out parade at Puckapunyal
> (1t was long march from cadets).
> The sixth battalion was the next to tour and It was me who drew the card.
> ...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbUOY0Rk1tA&mode=related&search=  The Green Fields Of France by Dropkick Murphys  
(beware this one has pretty gruesome  photos    )


----------



## 2020hindsight (11 April 2007)

I was only 19  (top song, so also billy joel's goodnight saigon imo)
I notice these clues to "understanding the lyrics "  - just in case anyone doesn't know what a VB is for instance 


> This song was written in the 70's, by a bloke called John Schuman and performed by him in a band called "Redgum". It became a national hit espcecially among Veterans almost imediately. It is still performed today whenever Vietnam Vets get together for a concert. Royalties from sales were donated to the Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia.
> Just a few things that may help you understand the lyrics better.
> Puckapunyal was a recruit training center and Cunungra is a Jungle Warfare training center. Shoalwater was a place that the Army used for Military excercises. The SLR was the personal weapon mostly used in Vietnam. Vung Tau & Nui Dat were Aussie bases in Vietnam. V.B. is Victorian Bitter a very popular Aussie beer. Anzac is the acronym for the Australian & New Zealand Army Corps


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## 2020hindsight (12 April 2007)

there are two sides to every story - 
or are there ???? (i.e. maybe just the same story in different languages) 
(suggest you only need 30 secs of each to get the ghist - she aint that good a singer - unless of course you are over 85 lol)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc9KHpi6hDc Marlene Dietrich "where have all the flowers gone"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPSmrb82ocM&mode=related&search= Marlene Dietrich : Sag Mir Wo Die Blumen Sind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYii6nxhvUk  PPM 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from previous quote 







> Pete Seegar : " way back in 1955, I came across three lines out of a famous book:-
> 
> "where are the flowers? the girls have plucked them
> where are the girls? they are all married
> ...


----------



## wayneL (12 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> I was only 19  (top song, so also billy joel's goodnight saigon imo)
> I notice these clues to "understanding the lyrics "  - just in case anyone doesn't know what a VB is for instance



One of my all time favourites. 

...and a very interesting thread.  Thanks.


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## 2020hindsight (12 April 2007)

wayneL said:


> One of my all time favourites.
> 
> ...and a very interesting thread.  Thanks.



wayne (whilst I suspect you were referring to red gum ,  - here's more on flowers ...)
here's PPM with Pete Seagar himself - including discussion of when he wrote this one   "the genesis of the song"  - he comes in about 3m 40s 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLe9pJSRas0


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## Sean K (12 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> I was only 19  (top song, so also billy joel's goodnight saigon imo)
> I notice these clues to "understanding the lyrics "  - just in case anyone doesn't know what a VB is for instance






> Puckapunyal was a recruit training center and Cunungra is a Jungle Warfare training center. Shoalwater was a place that the Army used for Military excercises. The SLR was the personal weapon mostly used in Vietnam. Vung Tau & Nui Dat were Aussie bases in Vietnam. V.B. is Victorian Bitter a very popular Aussie beer. Anzac is the acronym for the Australian & New Zealand Army Corps



Hate Pucka (too hard to dig in), Cunungra is OK cause the Gold Coast is down the road, Shoalwater Bay is ordinary unless you get time to go to GKI, the Steyr is more accurate than than the SLR, but the SLR is better for drill, VB? , and if you don't know what ANZAC stands for!  Please!

Thanks for the thread 2020.


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## wayneL (13 April 2007)

kennas said:


> Hate Pucka (too hard to dig in), Cunungra is OK cause the Gold Coast is down the road, Shoalwater Bay is ordinary unless you get time to go to GKI, the Steyr is more accurate than than the SLR, but the SLR is better for drill, VB? , *and if you don't know what ANZAC stands for!  Please!*
> 
> Thanks for the thread 2020.



I wonder how many young folk know what it means?  

...and I wonder how many understand why they fought (as we sit by and let government progressively strip it away)


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## 2020hindsight (13 April 2007)

wayneL said:


> I wonder how many young folk know what it means? ...and I wonder how many understand why they fought (as we sit by and let government progressively strip it away)



 - no argument from me wayne .

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15524/15524.txt
a few of CJ Dennis's poems ... written after WWI of course 
Interesting to compare the hero's reception that the WWI veterans received to the Vietnam boys.  


> THE BOYS OUT THERE
> ......
> It's that old stock; an', more than that,
> It's Bill an' Jim an' ev'ry son
> ...





> A SQUARE DEAL
> ......
> "I'm thinkin' things," sez Digger Smith.
> "I'm thinkin' big an' fine
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 April 2007)

If anyone is interested, the National Archives have opened up files from WWI - so you can research old rels who were there.

but be warned, a lot of people checking it out, (plus newspapers leading into Anzac Day) and might be better to check it our after that.  

http://naa12.naa.gov.au


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## 2020hindsight (13 April 2007)

I'm gonna bore you folks, and repost something from the poetry thread 


> Here's a few lines I scribbled about Bourke, an imaginary old digger, and an imaginary flood (been a long time since they had one of those). In reality its more about the spirit of the diggers that is dying with them. That attitude is probably not relevant today - but cripes I love those diggers.
> 
> WHEN DUTY MEETS FLOOD
> An order came through on the phone to young Jimmy,
> ...





> .....
> "Do you think us blokes Over There,
> When things was goin' strong,
> Was keepin' ledgers day be day
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (13 April 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eewXEOfuIsQ&mode=related&search= The Somme
 (compilation of video clips from the battle of the somme. It contains footage of British, Irish, Canadian and French troops from signing up, to the aftermath.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52J5_Es8O60&NR=1 The Battle of the Somme film


----------



## Wysiwyg (13 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eewXEOfuIsQ&mode=related&search= The Somme
> (compilation of video clips from the battle of the somme. It contains footage of British, Irish, Canadian and French troops from signing up, to the aftermath.)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52J5_Es8O60&NR=1 The Battle of the Somme film




You do very good at bringing home the  ANZAC story 2020h.Though the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps. came to name in ww1 it is from that moment on that a permanent `connection` has been formed with the "digger" and the defence of our friends and nation.My grand pa served from 1941-1945 in Australia and New Guinea  and achieved corporal status.There are many kin who are in similar situation and feel the sorrow of loss and the happiness of victory.`Tis something not to be glorified in my opinion but remembered for the committment of a young nation in defence of life.

Thankyou  2020.


----------



## 2020hindsight (14 April 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> There are many kin who are in similar situation and feel the sorrow of loss and the happiness of victory.`Tis something not to be glorified in my opinion but remembered for the committment of a young nation in defence of life.



thanks wysiwyg ...  the missus has several rels who were at Gallipoli...  researching them makes fascinating reading.   And more recent, I remember blokes coming back from 'Nam with the most incredible acne (seen to be believed).   Agent Orange was no joke.  As they say  these days, when you tour 'Nam, you try to visit the countryside, without visiting too much of the herbicide 

just playing with words here (thinking of Gallipoli, or maybe Flanders) ...  maybe ...

"tis something to be horrified , yet glorified as well
those friends that were dismembered, I'll remember 'fore they fell 
where victory and lunacy and courage raw and heart  
and manliness and madness were but half an inch apart. 

there's something to be honoured where your innards might rebel
when cannon fire and murder daily follow fall of shell
and faces blank in no man's land, look back towards their mates
who died out there some yesterday - and forecast future fates."  

(poor bugas)


----------



## Wysiwyg (14 April 2007)

Wysiwyg said:


> `Tis something not to be glorified in my opinion but remembered for the committment of a young nation in defence of life.
> Thankyou  2020.





My apologies...too late to edit and it will read as `young nations in defence of life`.


And to put a spin on a movie quote...`what we do in life need NOT echo through eternity`


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## 2020hindsight (14 April 2007)

WAR – DID I HEAR YOU RIGHT THERE SONNY?.

Did I hear you right there sonny, you were saying as we marched
where is Martin Place’s dunny? pass the parchment? you were parched?
sorry son I’m hard of hearing, its my eardrums  blown away,
into fear? or interfering?, in some war zone miles away.

Bloocher boots are great for marching don’t you think, or praps you don’t
hey they work ok on asphalt, -  when you get in mud they won't
padre's prayers to help anoint us so we'd face some foe annoyed,
boys were all we were back then, my boy, with crazed young hopes were buoyed. 

Mortified or mortar fired? canonised or blown apart?
bain of mankind , bayonets? have a heart or had a heart?
overhead heat seeking missiles ? missus back home seeking warm?
war the ugly side of humans ? peace the humane side of storm?

pass a round for Betsy here? naval guns or navel wound?
pass a round of Anzac beer? laughing mates or trigger tuned?
missile point or missed the point? nuclear future - no clear path?
Martha likes to sweep the joint? - who will sweep up "aftermath?" 

...........
Tis something to be horrified , yet glorified as well
those friends that were dismembered, I'll remember 'fore they fell
where victory and lunacy and courage raw and heart  
and manliness and madness were but half an inch apart. 

there's something to be honoured where your innards might rebel
when cannon fire and murder daily follow fall of shell
and faces blank in no man's land, look back towards their mates
who died out there some yesterday - and forecast future fates.

............
In the end my boy you ask yourself this little question here (while)
we share this Anzac medal called "a blood-oath promised beer"
this question's all important son, please try to understand...

is the aussie in the warzone? or the warzone in the man?


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2007)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1900752.htm Rare Gallipoli footage uncovered

Interesting that this is the same Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett that I found on the "diggers' website" , post #27 , who was so complimentary about Anzac soldiers    I was trying to find the film on the web , but no joy as yet , maybe after Anzac day I guess.


> The Australian War Memorial has found one minute of rare footage taken at Gallipoli in 1915.
> 
> The film features the only known pictures of Anzac Cove on the Gallipoli Peninsula, and British soldiers gathering at Suvla Bay.
> 
> ...




PS I guess I could have slipped another verse in back there, words of a hypothetical old digger (or recent young digger I guess).

was it all about the battlements, or what the battle meant?
were we simply sheep or cattle, (yet both hell and heaven sent  )
was it valid or invalid, now that invalids are left
or the stuff of folklore ballad, and the law of folk bereft.

In the end my boy you ask yourself this little question here 
(while) we share this Anzac medal called "a blood-oath promised beer"
this question's all important son, please try to understand...
is the aussie in the warzone? or the warzone in the man?


----------



## Sean K (18 April 2007)

You marching 2020?

I'll be amongst 4 Bde in Melbourne heading to the Shrine.


----------



## 2020hindsight (18 April 2007)

kennas said:


> You marching 2020?
> I'll be amongst 4 Bde in Melbourne heading to the Shrine.



I'm not, kennas - I never left Aus shores - just another nasho called up towards the end of the Vietnam days  
I try to get to the dawn service in Sydney. Good luck to you though.  

My dad was in Darwin during the war, (Air Force) - died 50 odd years ago from a melanoma - maybe I could line up with them 

PS The Last Post is good, but the bugle music I really like is the Retreat - full orchestral version.

PS Found this in case anyone's interested in orgins of the Anzac Dawn Service :-
http://www.anzacday.org.au/education/tff/dawn.html


> The ANZAC Day Dawn Service has become an integral part of commemorations on 25 April. However, credit for its origin is divided between the Reverend Arthur Ernest White of Albany, WA and Captain George Harrington of Toowoomba, Queensland.
> 
> Reverend White was a padre of the earliest ANZACs to leave Australia with the First AIF in November 1914. The convoy assembled at Albany’s King George Sound in WA and at 4 am on the morning of their departure, he conducted a service for all men. After the war, White gathered some 20 men at dawn on 25 April 1923 on Mt Clarence overlooking King George Sound and silently watched a wreath floating out to sea. He then quietly recited the words ‘As the sun rises and goeth down we will remember them’. All were deeply moved and the news of the ceremony soon spread. White is quoted as saying that ‘Albany was the last sight of land these ANZAC troops saw after leaving Australian shores and some of them never returned. We should hold a service (here) at the first light of dawn each ANZAC Day to commemorate them.’
> 
> ...




PS As I mentioned before , you want a heated debate over an Anzac beer, throw in that one about Bunyin's poem's actual words " Age shall not weary them nor the years contemn " 
i.e. "contemn" makes more sense - the years treat us all with contempt, we age, we grow old  

however, "condemn " strictly means to judge , and I don't think that anyone wants to judge the diggers harshly 

As I also said somewhere , "only a  pedant wowser would even argue about it - and who would wish wowserism on a digger on Anzac Day "


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jefmval4iB0&mode=related&search= Spitfire Ace.The Greatest Day 1 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwYf4_gZH2c&mode=related&search= Spitfire Ace.The Greatest Day 2 of 5

etc - Story of the Battle of Britain, including teaching a modern pilot how to fly a spitfire   maybe you need to have a bit of time to spare here - (10 mins each) ..."so much owed by so many to so few" as WC said.


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

oops Binyon
http://www.firstworldwar.com/poetsandprose/binyon.htm
http://www.anzacs.org/fallen.html



> Laurence Binyon (1869-1943), the poet and art critic, was born in Lancaster in 1869. He worked at the British Museum before going to war, having studied at Trinity College, Oxford where he won the Newdigate poetry prize. Whilst on the staff of the British Museum he developed an expertise in Chinese and Japanese art.
> 
> Aside from his best known poem For The Fallen (1914), most notably the fourth stanza which adorns numerous war memorials, Binyon published work on Botticelli and Blake among others. He returned to the British Museum following the war. His Collected Poems was published in 1931.




FOR THE FALLEN 
Laurence Binyon (1869-1943) 

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children, 
England mourns for her dead across the sea. 
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit, 
Fallen in the cause of the free. 

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal 
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres, 
There is music in the midst of desolation 
And a glory that shines upon our tears. 

They went with songs to the battle, they were young, 
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow. 
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted; 
They fell with their faces to the foe. 

*They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old: 
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn. 
At the going down of the sun and in the morning 
We will remember them*. 

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again; 
They sit no more at familiar tables of home; 
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time; 
They sleep beyond England's foam. 

But where our desires are and our hopes profound, 
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight, 
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known 
As the stars are known to the Night; 

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust, 
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain; 
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness, 
To the end, to the end, they remain.[/quote]


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> If anyone is interested, the National Archives have opened up files from WWI - so you can research old rels who were there.  but be warned, a lot of people checking it out, (plus newspapers leading into Anzac Day) and might be better to check it our after that.
> http://naa12.naa.gov.au



Further to previous post , here's more on that "Gift to the nation" 
http://www.naa.gov.au/the_collection/gift-to-the-nation.html


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

I just realise that, in the previous post, there is a photo of the horses used in WWI.  Here's another copy of a poem I found on the web on that topic - Aussie origins (Kym Eitel) - sad one folks - and surely a sad moment for the men who had to kill their horses because quarantine and expense prevented them from coming back to Aus.  



> REMEMBER THE HORSES TOO
> © Kym Eitel
> 
> The men who went to war for us, and died so far away,
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

http://www.diggerhistory2.info/
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-help/faq.htm#horses


> Did the horses of the Light Horse or the Boer War contingents come home?
> 
> Sadly, no. The estimated 25,000 horses sent overseas could not be returned to Australia for quarantine reasons. The ones left in South Africa could look forward to a reasonably normal life. In North Africa and Egypt many Light Horsemen (supposedly) shot their beloved horses to save them a terrible life. The ones that were left were often abused by the locals but an English noblewoman set up charity with the aim of protecting them that was relatively successful and lasted for many years.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

geek award given to the bloke responsible for (some of) the digger's website 

Also an example of some of the countless FAQ's listed on that site - in case you didn't know what a "Deep Thinker" was for instance (which I for one didn't) - later changed to "Fair Dinkum" because anyone who joined after the casualty lists came out etcetc   - really well set up site.

Lol, military jargon - "short arm inspection FAQ #32 
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-help/faq.htm#short


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## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

Uniforms of WWII (apparently the male model is the american bloke who presented the "geek" award mentioned in the previous post ) - lol - talk about the "universal soldier " 
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/all-forces.htm


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## 2020hindsight (19 April 2007)

And on the condemn / contemn question (incidentally allegedly a distinctly Australian phenomenon):-


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## 2020hindsight (20 April 2007)

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-poetry/0-poetry-cat-index.htm


> Grandpa, What Did You Do In The War? by Jeff Cook
> 
> I’d been mowing the lawn and pulling some weeds, and slipped inside for a breather
> I picked up the paper and turned on the news, not paying attention to either
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (21 April 2007)

Vietnam brief history... from a couple of websites . The map allegedly applies to the Tet Offensive.  
Casualties overall as listed below :-
After Vietnam (millions killed on each side), of course the majority were USA, with 58,209 killed
followed by South Korea (5000)
and many more Aus killed (512) than NZ (37).
also Thailand 350.
Note that UK wasn't there, and nor officially was Canada. ..  


> At the heart of the conflict was the desire of North Vietnam, which had defeated the French colonial administration of Vietnam in 1954, to unify the entire country under a single communist regime modeled after those of the Soviet Union and China. The South Vietnamese government, on the other hand, fought to preserve a Vietnam more closely aligned with the West. U.S. military advisers, present in small numbers throughout the 1950s, were introduced on a large scale beginning in 1961, and active combat units were introduced in 1965. By 1969 more than 500,000 U.S. military personnel were stationed in Vietnam. Meanwhile, the Soviet Union and China poured weapons, supplies, and advisers into the North, which in turn provided support, political direction, and regular combat troops for the campaign in the South. The costs and casualties of the growing war proved too much for the United States to bear, and U.S. combat units were withdrawn by 1973. In 1975 South Vietnam fell to a full-scale invasion by the North.
> 
> The human costs of the long conflict were harsh for all involved. Not until 1995 did Vietnam release its official estimate of war dead: *as many as 2 million civilians on both sides* and
> 
> ...





> In 1969, growing disenchantment with the war, as well as US attempts to reduce casualties and prepare for disengagement, led to the emphasis in operations changing to 'pacification' - the enhancement of the security of the populated areas of the RVN, combined with the upgrading of the effectiveness of RVN forces. Notwithstanding this commitment, 1ATF offensive operations in Phuoc Tuy ensured that by 1971 there were few incursions by VC and NVA major units.
> *Commencing in 1968, public opinion in both Australia and the United States began to turn against the war. Exacerbated by the propaganda disaster of the communists’ 1968 'Tet' Offensive, the combination of the unpopularity of conscription and the rising casualty rates, public opposition in both the US and Australia forced the political leaderships to announce the withdrawal of allied forces.* In November 1970, 8RAR was withdrawn and not replaced. 1ATF withdrew from Phuoc Tuy in November 1971, followed shortly after by 1ALSG. AATTV, having been gradually reduced in strength, concentrated in Phuoc Tuy Province with the departure of 1ATF, and continued training ARVN forces until the withdrawal of the last Australian elements in December 1972.
> *For the Australian Army, the withdrawal from Vietnam represented the end of 33 years of continuous operational duties, which had commenced with World War II, continued through the occupation of Japan, the Korean War, the Malayan Emergency and Indonesian Confrontation to the Second Indo-China War in Vietnam*.


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## 2020hindsight (21 April 2007)

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-poetry/other/svn.htm


> Wounded Heart
> A poem by John Lyle
> 
> Our soldiers true blue fought world wars one and two;
> ...


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## Sean K (22 April 2007)

Sorry, 20/20, did you serve in Vietnam?

I had a full day of parade rehearsals today at 4 CSSB, 4 Bde. The usual stuff. Turn up on 5s from about 5 ranks above me, to be dicked around at the Q store. And I'm a Major! LOL.

Anyway, after watching the SSO's embarrass themselves no end (read my Company) we had a nice piss up in the soldiers boozer tonight and it was OK. 

Looking forward to the dawn service and marching down to the shrine!


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## 2020hindsight (22 April 2007)

kennas said:


> did you serve in Vietnam?



answered back there mate   - nope, although like a fully brainwashed impressionable young bloke,  I asked almost pleaded to go - but Portsea blokes got preference. My only overseas experience was on Rottnest  

As for parade ground stuff-ups, we once trained - as cadets - for hours and bludy hourse on the (bitumen) parade ground to be "perfect" for some parade in front of some dignitary or other, forget who, you couldn't look sideways to see him anyway lol - and come the day, discovered that Vic Barracks was a grass parade ground, no sound, no guiding beat, and of course no band - and we "exhibited all the timing of bull in a CHINA SHOP" as the RSM's tonsils balled out to us later , lol. 

Rather than get side-tracked yet again,  I was just trying to express (back there) what I'm sure many Vietnam RSL members still feel really strongly about today - and will take those scars to their grave. 


> The price for this war will never be known;
> We all died a little;
> And still more each day;
> Betrayed by our country in this most dastardly way.
> ...



Gotta feeling those poems on the digger's thread are probably the best way to do it .  They provide some of the empathy that was totally lacking in the populatoin back home - no empathy or sympathy whatsoever - and not helped by the fact that, with time,  we, the nation, has been shown to be wrong to go there in the first place!!!  I mean, we are now the best of mates with the Vietnamese Dragon we so denigrated and maligned and vilified back then. 

Needless to say, -  had we REALLY believed in the cause, i.e. a LEGITIMATE call to arms  a la WWII - then does anyone doubt that , under THESE circumstances,  we would have won?  You can bet your bottom dollar we'd have won.

But it was all done with mirrors, and paranoia, and sold to us by the likes of LBJ (who took over the presidency, coincidentally, immediately after JFK refused to become  so embroiled in Vietnam - just one of the theories and coincidences around his death).

That last poem for instance, is a cry from the heart yes?  Not his fault that he was sent there etc - or that we lost - or that the history books had to be rewritten for once, no longer were we (USA/AUS) the victors,  crossing out the bits about domino theory ( that were proven to be lies anyway) !!!

Art is such a powerful medium to communicate these emotions.  

I went to two plays at Glen St Theatre about 12 or 18 months back, both based on war.
One concerned Aussie Nurses who were prisoners of war in Singapore (WWII)-  something similar to Vivian Bullwinkel including (topically in the current press) sexual exploitation.  Forget the name now, something about a tin flute, or tin whistle - where one lady “consented” to sex with the Japanese (blackmailed) to obtain medication for her seriously ill friend (who otherwise would die), and her friend never forgave her, such was the hatred of the prison administration. 


> http://www.womenaustralia.info/biogs/AWE0362b.htm
> Bullwinkel, Vivian (1915 - 2000)  AO, MBE, ARRC, ED, FNM, FRCNA
> Nurse and Health administrator
> Born: 18 December 1915  Kapunda, South Australia, Australia.  Died: 3 July 2000.
> ...



Another was about the legacy of Vietnam and its effects on 5 women, who “experience” the Vietnam war and its many and varied facets - title something like “sunglasses, bullets and bikinis”  (probably nothing like that, lol – best my memory can come up with).   But very powerful drama, and that I can’t forget.  – Many messages ranging from nurses who served  - to press ladies , to wives who had to deal with their husbands who returned to them as stranger -  to widows.  (you almost felt the more sorrow for the one whose husband came home than for the widow - sheesh, how bad a scar is that!)

Anyway here’s another of those poems, something in keeping with (just one of the messages of) that second mentioned play.


> Things You Didn't Do  (by unknown author) http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-poetry/other/svn.htm#things
> 
> Remember the day I borrowed your brand new car and dented it?
> I thought you'd kill me, but you didn't.
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (24 April 2007)

There was a fantastic musical legacy of course   Here's a couple to get the ball rolling ... 

Honky tonk.. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90wdzsTEFfM&mode=related&search= mike woollett at his honkytonk piano
kiss me goodnight sergeant major
its a long way to tip a rarie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYvrG7raZk8&NR=1 If you knew suzie ( Have A Party Medley)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykb-kCCLhrA&mode=related&search= maybe its becos Im a Londoner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Egihugiiw&mode=related&search= Make It A Party With Mike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3pkwiA5AHU&mode=related&search= lovely bunch of coconuts LIVE!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q6XxfzaWGk&mode=related&search= show me the way to home LIVE!!



> KISS ME GOODNIGHT, SERGEANT-MAJOR
> (Art Noell / Don Pelosi)  Arthur Askey - 1939
> Billy Cotton & His Band (vocal: Alan Breeze) - 1939
> Also recorded by: Vera Lynn; George Formby;
> ...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHbcGeIilss Royal Sisters, Elizabeth and Margaret  White Cliffs of Dover

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPFjToKuZQM (more recent) 


> And the band played Waltzing Mathilda
> In memoriam of thoses, anzacs, turks, frenchs who lost their lives in Gallipoli. The song "Waltzing Mathilda" is performed by the Pogues.
> 
> When I was a young man I carried my pack
> ...


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## kromey (24 April 2007)

How to make Anzac biscuits.


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## 2020hindsight (24 April 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wODhokKRUtI&mode=related&search= It's A Long Way to Tipperary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXsG2HlC5RI bless em all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihhvZeADJMQ On the Road to Gundagai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIva5JW5uqQ&mode=related&search= Vietnam War Montage - Goodnight Saigon

whilst this is strictly not a war song, still she was forced into prostitution during the war, and I guess represents the many civilians whose lives were "adversely" affected 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_QABS88nDc&mode=related&search= Edith Piaf - Non je ne regrette rien

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbUOY0Rk1tA 


> WILLIE McBRIDE
> And I can't help but wonder, now Willie McBride,
> Do all those who lie here know why they died?
> Did you really believe them when they told you "The Cause?"
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (24 April 2007)

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-poetry/ww1/ww1-a.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbUOY0Rk1tA 


> WILLY McBRIDE'S ANSWER
> 
> G'day, Eric, old mate, this is Willie McBride,
> I'm callin'  today from across the divide
> ...




no song available on youtube sadly - but here's the words at least  A BROWN SLOUCH HAT 


> There is a symbol, we love and adore it
> You see it daily wherever you go.
> Long years have passed since our fathers once wore it,
> What is the symbol that we should all know,
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (24 April 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ry9NjJJDoU lilli marlene (german)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W0QtiL8s8Y&mode=related&search= Marlene Dietrich ('72) - ditto (english)

Recent song ... likewise with two versions ( as posted back there)  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPSmrb82ocM&mode=related&search= Marlene Dietrich : Sag Mir Wo Die Blumen Sind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc9KHpi6hDc&mode=related&search= Marlene dietrich "where have all the flowers gone"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZtEBPq5-Ic Vera Lynn - I'm Yours Sincerely & We'll Meet Again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX0B38IgYK8&mode=related&search= ditto - complete with... "fireworks" 


> one of Great Britain's greatest singers, Vera Lynn.
> Vera Lynn (born Vera Margaret Welch in 1917) is a British singer whose career flourished during World War II, when she was nicknamed "The Forces' Sweetheart". She is best known for the popular songs "We'll Meet Again" and "The White Cliffs of Dover".



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Wwwb0VTPI&mode=related&search= this is the army Mr Jones, Second World War WWII WW2 Vera Lynn Songs


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## 2020hindsight (24 April 2007)

comedy ( since the war) :-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkz1ecxrQO4  'Allo 'Allo! Season1 Pilot (PART 1)
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query='allo+'allo (plenty more 


> René Artois, owner of a small café in the French village of Nouvion during WWII. René leads a simple life and is married to the tone-deaf Edith (who nevertheless loves to sing) and at the same time carrying on secret affairs with his two waitresses, Yvette and Maria. At the same time, René tries to maintain a good relationship with the occupying German officers,  etc




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_D7WtOHZd0&mode=related&search= Monty Python - Hitler in England  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6V2FU79ZS4 Dad's Army - The Deadly Attachment 3 (3-3) (a great episode )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyFNSKIgkFc Dad's Army
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dad's+army (heaps more)


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## 2020hindsight (25 April 2007)

medals and recognition

Aboriginals came home from WWII - and 
a) not only couldn't vote ( insult #1) , but
b) weren't even included in the census , i.e. mean they didnt even exist ! 

Many came home and were suitably rewarded with recognition (Weary Dunlop eventually became Aussie of the year, deserved everything he got of course  etc)

but say, "White Mouse" Nancy Wake was insulted by Aus by being ignored to the point where any recognition was an insult in itself  (yet she is one of the most decorated people of WWII - by USA, France - but not by Aus etc etc . 

She was born in NZ but moved to Aus at age of 2. 


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Wake
> Nancy Grace Augusta Wake, AC, GM (born August 30, 1912), was the Allies' most decorated servicewoman of World War II who fought alongside the maquis groups of the French Resistance.........(except by Aus - as at 2001 )
> 
> In the night of April 29-30 1944 Nancy Wake parachuted into Auvergne and became a liaison between London and the local maquis group. She coordinated resistance activity prior to Normandy Invasion and recruited more members. She also led attacks on German installations and local Gestapo HQ in Montluçon.
> ...



Here's an extract from Peter Fitzsimmons book "Nancy Wake" (attached).

LOL, while I'm at it, I'll quote from his Acknowledgements  ..  thanks editor etc etc uncle Tom Cobley and all...

"As to my wife , Lisa, I didn't marry her because when we met she was already recognised as one of this country's greatest editors, but in terms of our subsequent lives together, it certainly hasn't hurt 

He has also put out books about Kokoda, and Tobruk, (and probably others).
Sue Ebury put out "Weary" - great story.

 I wonder how many people know that Weary played Rugby (Union) - unusual for a Victorian, started playing in his 20's, played for the Wallabies 2 years later, and often played with a broken nose.  

He deseved to be Aussie of the Year for that alone.  (ps I wrote a poem about him in case anyone thinks I don't respect him - man was a giant )

Finally some humorous quotes overheard whilst watching the ABC TV coverage of the Sydney Anzac day march...(some Colonel  lol - funny dude)

"and here's the parachute regiment ... never could understand them - jumping out of perfectly good aeroplanes "   

"searchlight batteries, these days they use rechargeables I'm told" 

"and here's the carrier pigeon service, those birds were great for avoiding interception, unless of course by an eagle "    etc


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## 2020hindsight (28 April 2007)

The first computer - how we won the war..
(Anyone read "Ultra Secret" by Winterbotham ? - you read that, you'd have to conclude we would have lost WWII without Bletchley Park.  Heaps of good info on the web these days of course) 


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bletchley_Park
> Bletchley Park, also known as Station X, is an estate located in the town of Bletchley, now part of Milton Keynes, England. During World War II, Bletchley Park was the location of the United Kingdom's main codebreaking establishment. Codes and ciphers of several Axis countries were deciphered there, most famously the German Enigma. The high-level intelligence produced by Bletchley Park, codenamed Ultra, is frequently credited with aiding the Allied war effort and shortening the war,…..





> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra
> Some Germans had suspicions that all was not right with Enigma. Karl Dönitz received reports of "impossible" encounters between U-boats and enemy vessels which made him suspect some compromise of his communications. In one instance, three U-boats met at a tiny island in the Caribbean, and a British destroyer promptly showed up.
> In another case, the Germans became suspicious of Ultra when five ships from Naples headed for North Africa with essential supplies for Rommel's campaign were all mysteriously attacked and sunk by an Allied airforce. As there was no time to have the ships all spotted by the airforce beforehand and then sunk accordingly, the decision went directly to Churchill whether or not to act solely on Ultra intelligence. He gave the simple order "Sink them". Afterwards, a message was sent by the Allies to Naples congratulating a fictitious spy and informing him of his bonus. The Germans decrypted this message and believed it[1][2].
> *It is commonly claimed that the breaks into Naval Enigma resulted in the war being a year shorter, but given its effects on the Second Battle of the Atlantic alone, that might be an underestimate.*
> ...





> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCpQfc_y2Fk
> Colossus The World’s First Computer
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CAVmRVKh_8&mode=related&search=  The Colossus Codebreaking computer





> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crlr71JPLgk&mode=related&search= Enigma at Bletchley  - Audrey Wind talk at the Dover Society on her time in World War 2 at Bletchley and the Enigma machine
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnBsndE1IkA The Enigma machine
> 
> ...



After the war, not only did no one mention this computer for 29 years, but they destroyed the computer.  (just think, Bill Gaites and IBM were pipped to the post by a pom )


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## 2020hindsight (28 April 2007)

PS *Winterbotham :- "Let no one be fooled," Winterbotham admonishes in chapter 3, "by the spate of television films and propaganda which has made the war seem like some great triumphant epic. It was, in fact, a very narrow shave, and the reader may like to ponder [...] whether [...] we might have won [without] Ultra."*


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## noirua (28 April 2007)

Perhaps many have now learn't that blasting the enemy with Air Power is far better than sending in your troops to be crucified. However, it sometimes fails to work and we can see the greater sacrifice of the Anzacs in securing the eventual victory.


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## 2020hindsight (28 April 2007)

noirua said:


> Perhaps many have now learn't that blasting the enemy with Air Power is far better than sending in your troops to be crucified. However, it sometimes fails to work and we can see the greater sacrifice of the Anzacs in securing the eventual victory.



good point noirua - question is also, when it does work, is it for the short term solution only?

I mean, it's the difference between Anzac soldiers (and their close up faces) still being remembered in some French villages - and the bomber command being remembered for the firestorms in Dresden - as per Vonneguts account - he was one of 8 POW's there to survive as I recall  (although bomber command was acting under orders of course)  

As for recent bombing raids and US military attitudes, let's not even go there.  Hard to remember that the planes are there to let you have a democratic vote (and such other positives)  when you are being covered in broken bricks and rubble, and your family are being wiped out around you.


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## basilio (11 May 2018)

Thinking about "Patriotism" and "Fifth Columinists" .

Your  an Australian in World War 1 fighting against the Germans.  You discover that a wealthy, German Jew  has rapidly climbed the military ranks and is now in very senior position. He is also an amateur soldier who spent his pre war years playing in the Army Reserves.

What should we do about this wealthy German Jew infiltrating our armed forces when we are in a fight to the death against the dastardly Boche ?


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## SirRumpole (11 May 2018)

basilio said:


> Thinking about "Patriotism" and "Fifth Columinists" .
> 
> Your  an Australian in World War 1 fighting against the Germans.  You discover that a wealthy, German Jew  has rapidly climbed the military ranks and is now in very senior position. He is also an amateur soldier who spent his pre war years playing in the Army Reserves.
> 
> What should we do about this wealthy German Jew infiltrating our armed forces when we are in a fight to the death against the dastardly Boche ?




Is this purely hypothetical ?


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## basilio (11 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Is this purely hypothetical ?



No Rumpy. Not at all.


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## SirRumpole (11 May 2018)

basilio said:


> No Rumpy. Not at all.




I presume you are speaking of John Monash ?


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## basilio (11 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> I presume you are speaking of John Monash ?



Might be worth putting a couple of hours aside to watch Monash and me on Iview.
https://iview.abc.net.au/programs/monash-and-me/DO1600W001S00


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## SirRumpole (11 May 2018)

basilio said:


> Might be worth putting a couple of hours aside to watch Monash and me on Iview.
> https://iview.abc.net.au/programs/monash-and-me/DO1600W001S00




The Murdoch's were up to dirty tricks even then.


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## basilio (11 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The Murdoch's were up to dirty tricks even then.



True.  But not just them. I suppose however the reach that the Murdoch Press had meant that the poisonous attacks on Sir John Monash had plenty of scope for publication.

By the way if you look at the story on Monash and me you'll discover that there were plenty of patriotic Aussies who wanted to disbar from public life anyone who had any touch of the Boche. As we discovered in the doco most of them were, in fact, fighting on the Western Front.

At the end it was very sad to hear of the fate of Peter Gestes four German Great uncles who had fought for Australia.


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## Tisme (13 May 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The Murdoch's were up to dirty tricks even then.




Monash's reputation doesn't need to poisoned by dredging up racial prejudice. He was promoted throughout the war and rec'd the professional commendations the various nations saw fit. Having reservations about his alliances because of being a first son German Jew, while Australian troops are risking their lives fighting 100,000 German Jews at his command would raise some ire.


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## basilio (13 May 2018)

My respect for Sir John Monash increased exponitially when I saw his brilliance as a leader, military tactician and community leader after the war the doco.

The reference to the poisonous campaign carried out against him was about the role of so called patriotic Australians in trying to pull him down. If they had been successful, and they got very, very close, the Allies could not have won WW1 in the way they did. This  was almost totally  the result of Sir John Monashs  battle planning and implemenation strategies. Indeed they might never have "won" the war decisively.

Perhaps that outcome  could have spared us from WW2?


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