# Beginner question for making quick money



## Assassin (9 July 2009)

Hi everyone,

Have just started looking into wealth creation after having recently got myself out of homelessness after a year and a half. I am looking to throw a bit of money towards share trading and I have just signed up for the ASX Sharemarket game and plan to use that until the end of the year to learn as much as I can about share trading while I save up some more money to invest for real in the market.

I currently have 2k and want to save another 2. When the time comes I will be more than happy to take big risks and try for quick profits with 2 and be willing to lose it if it happens, and be conservative with the other 2k and I'm wondering what is the best way to take big risks and make profits so I have a couple of questions. 

1. Should I be watching the stock market constantly throughout the day? If so how do I do that, is it just through the ASX site or do I need to download a special program? 
2. What are generally the best type of companies to watch where their prices go up and down a fair bit throughout the day?
3. What is the best way to find out company announcements before the news gets hold and everyone starts selling off or buying?
4. Any other tips for taking risks and making quick profits?

Thanks in advance for the help guys.


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## johnnyg (9 July 2009)




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## Trembling Hand (9 July 2009)

Assassin said:


> Thanks in advance for the help guys.




I'm not so sure you will be thanking anyone with the replies you are about to get. 

Shame though because at least it was easy to read


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## MS+Tradesim (9 July 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> I'm not so sure you will be thanking anyone with the replies you are about to get.




 opcorn:


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## wayneL (9 July 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> I'm not so sure you will be thanking anyone with the replies you are about to get.
> 
> Shame though because at least it was easy to read




Trembling Hand is spot on here, but congratulations for making a start from the lowest possible base - respect. But quick money equals high risk. How much will it hurt you to lose that 4k in short order?


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## Assassin (9 July 2009)

Well I am prepared to put half of it into high risk and be happy to lose it if it happens. I am hoping though that I do alright in the ASX game and learn enough to at least have some small chance of not losing it straight away.


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## Julia (9 July 2009)

Assassin, I'll leave it to others to respond to your requests for get rich quick stuff, but I wouldn't mind betting you will eventually get what you want, even if not quickly.

Anyone who can go from being homeless to having enough to make even a small investment is just a fantastic example imo.   It takes a lot of courage and determination to make such a leap.   

I wish you continued progress and every success.


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## treeman (9 July 2009)

I think beginner and quick money are the key words that stand out the most. There is no quick money especially if you are a beginner, sorry for being straight forward.


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## johnnyg (9 July 2009)

Trembling Hand - Do I remember correctly reading a while ago that you were once homeless living on a beach somewhere?

Sorry if I have you confused with someone else.


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## Trembling Hand (9 July 2009)

johnnyg said:


> Trembling Hand - Do I remember correctly reading a while ago that you were once homeless living on a beach somewhere?
> 
> Sorry if I have you confused with someone else.




Yep,


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## johnnyg (9 July 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> Yep,




You don't know what thread it was in do you? I've searched for awhile but couldn't find it. I'd love to read threw it again.

Cheers John.


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## Aussiest (9 July 2009)

Assassin said:


> 1. Should I be watching the stock market constantly throughout the day? If so how do I do that, is it just through the ASX site or do I need to download a special program?
> 2. What are generally the best type of companies to watch where their prices go up and down a fair bit throughout the day?
> 3. What is the best way to find out company announcements before the news gets hold and everyone starts selling off or buying?
> 4. Any other tips for taking risks and making quick profits?




Okay, first of all, i would definately save up the extra 2k if i were you.

1. Yes, you should be watching the market every day and constantly throughout the day if you want to gain an understanding of it. I would suggest that you open up a Commsec account (free) and log in every day and use their depth of market (DOM) data and charting. You will get real live price action there.

2. Volatility depends on the economic environment and what sort of "news" is out there. I find that the most volatile shares are the large caps, but some here may disagree with me. What you are looking for is shares that trade every day and frequently. This is known as liquidity. The reason that some traders go for high liquidity is so that their holdings are easy to buy and sell.

3. Not sure about company announcements as everyone is looking for an edge, but you can find out about the latest economic data (unemployment rates, consumer data etc.) from an online economic calender. The one that i use is www.dailyfx.com. 

4. There is no such thing as a quick profit, because if you made it quickly, with no background experience, you will likely whittle it away in the end. There is no such thing as an easy profit. You will need to study and study in order to make consistent, sustainable profits. 

My opinion. With 4k, you could open a CFD account with IG Markets and get to know the SPI. You will have to do your research into this, but basically it is the index of the top 200 shares in Australia. It will be far more profitable if you can do this properly with 4k. Basically, you start off with $5.00 point contracts (mini contracts). Do your own research.


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## Bolle (9 July 2009)

I can't really add much to the get-rich-quick advice, because I haven't managed it myself, and would be extremely wary of anyone that suggested it was possible. 

I do want to add, however, that the ASX game is a great way to start, and it does tend toward a trader attitude, given the short timeline (as opposed to a buy and hold attitude)... on the downside, it only allows you to trade the top 100 or so stocks.   As in, you won't find any of the mid-range or little penny shares in there; none of the younger and/or smaller companies, startups, that sort of thing.  No floats, IPOs or anything either.  Those 'little' companies are often (though not always) where the highest short/mid-term growth potential can be.


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## beamstas (9 July 2009)

Wow.. I don't know where to start
Well done on recently getting out of homelessness. 

Im going to start by saying please don't consider "gambling" your money for rent or food etc (if you are still in a bad situation). I don't know your situationn so it's not very fair of me to say that but be careful

There is no get rich quick.

_1. Should I be watching the stock market constantly throughout the day? If so how do I do that, is it just through the ASX site or do I need to download a special program?_

You can basically do whatever you want. If trading for a living you are your own boss. Decide whether you want to scalp or buy & Hold, or something in between. Ultimately this will dictate how long you spend in front of the screen
_
2. What are generally the best type of companies to watch where their prices go up and down a fair bit throughout the day?_

I think the flavour of the month is Bio Tech stocks, but basically any volatile stock can be day traded. Some of the bigger swingers are RIO, Suncorp and Maq bank.

_3. What is the best way to find out company announcements before the news gets hold and everyone starts selling off or buying?_

Bloomberg and other companies do a news feed. Though im not sure if this would help a new trader.. the market is irrational so trying to rationalise news and trade off it is hard.

_4. Any other tips for taking risks and making quick profits?_

Go to the casino and put it all on red 

If you really want to make a go of it, learn to trade Futures. Go read Trembling hands blog 38 times and his Nothing to Something (i think it's called that) thread, and then spend time on a sim getting a feel for trading. 

You said you are prepared to lose that 2k so don't chase me if you do 

The sharemarket isn't just an ATM, you have to work for your money. Sadly alot of people don't realise this 

Brad


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## nunthewiser (10 July 2009)

i like you 

you have a way with words 

you got 4k? 


come to chat 

watch this space


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## mazzatelli1000 (10 July 2009)

johnnyg said:


> Trembling Hand - Do I remember correctly reading a while ago that you were once homeless living on a beach somewhere?
> 
> Sorry if I have you confused with someone else.






Trembling Hand said:


> Yep,




Oh no, did you lose it all TH!!!
Posting as a new alias? jk


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## Trembling Hand (10 July 2009)

mazzatelli1000 said:


> Oh no, did you lose it all TH!!!
> Posting as a new alias? jk




Yep from hero to zero when I was 29. In fact not zero, way below zero. 

But I was lucky. I managed to come back after a year or two down and very out. Most never get to shake what put them there.

who is jk?


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## nomore4s (10 July 2009)

Trembling Hand said:


> who is jk?




I think he means joking.


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## mazzatelli1000 (10 July 2009)

Yeah I was joking that you blew up again and are now posting as Assasin

Didn't work to well


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## Trembling Hand (10 July 2009)

mazzatelli1000 said:


> Yeah I was joking that you blew up again and are now posting as Assasin
> 
> Didn't work to well




 Oh, me not so fast. Must be the stress of the draw-down I'm going through.


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## Trembling Hand (10 July 2009)

For the original poster. My advice would be to work on consolidating the new position you are in rather than trying to move away as fast as possible from where you have just left. Even as appealing as taking another step is sometimes you have to build the foundations up a little before you add another level.

If not you may find some of the problems that tripped you up to make you homeless are trigged as you move up the ladder. I'm not saying slow and steady. But consolidate and attack.


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## Assassin (10 July 2009)

Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I'll put the 4k out of my mind for the rest of the year and just concentrate on putting away as much money as I can and learn as much as possible from reading and asking questions on here and playing the ASX game and the re-evaluate at the beginning of next year.


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## Ashsaege (10 July 2009)

Assassin said:


> Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I'll put the 4k out of my mind for the rest of the year and just concentrate on putting away as much money as I can and learn as much as possible from reading and asking questions on here and playing the ASX game and the re-evaluate at the beginning of next year.




Sounds good! You should also download some demo trading accounts. GFT has a good one, but you will get some phone calls from their salesmen.


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## Mr J (10 July 2009)

wayneL said:


> Trembling Hand is spot on here, but congratulations for making a start from the lowest possible base - respect. *But quick money equals high risk.* How much will it hurt you to lose that 4k in short order?




Define "quick money". A high volume short-term trader can make quite a lot in a short time, without much capital. TH's nothing to something thread is a good example, although a little extreme.



			
				aussiest said:
			
		

> 1. Yes, you should be watching the market every day and constantly throughout the day if you want to gain an understanding of it.




Maybe to understand the finer details, but markets as a whole aren't hard to understand, and don't require constant attention.



			
				beamstas said:
			
		

> The sharemarket isn't just an ATM, you have to work for your money. Sadly alot of people don't realise this




I wouldn't go as far to say that it is work. It's like taking lollipops from kids, and watching to make sure you do it when their parents aren't around.



			
				assassin said:
			
		

> Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I'll put the 4k out of my mind for the rest of the year and just concentrate on putting away as much money as I can and learn as much as possible from reading and asking questions on here and playing the ASX game and the re-evaluate at the beginning of next year.




Good idea.


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## Sunder (10 July 2009)

My experience is that for the first year or two trading, you have better odds of counting a 6 card deck blackjack table at a casino - I'm serious about that.

Even if you've paper traded for a while before you use real money, emotions get in the way of proper discipline. It helped having my fiance constantly ask how the shares were going, and whether I had tripped any trading signals, and if I had, why hadn't I acted on them - or why I had acted without a trading signal.

Good luck.


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## nomore4s (10 July 2009)

Mr J said:


> Define "quick money". A high volume short-term trader can make quite a lot in a short time, without much capital. TH's nothing to something thread is a good example, although a little extreme.




An experienced trader maybe but I don't think the OP is anywhere near that stage yet, for the OP to try to trade like that would carry alot of risk I would've thought.

There would only be a very small % of traders that can do what TH can do even to a lesser degree - and to get to that stage requires plenty of hard work & time and probably blowing a few accounts in the process.




> I wouldn't go as far to say that it is work. It's like taking lollipops from kids, and watching to make sure you do it when their parents aren't around.





To get to any competent level in the market does require work & experience.


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## Aussiest (10 July 2009)

Mr J said:


> It's like taking lollipops from kids, and watching to make sure you do it when their parents aren't around.




Hmm Mr J. Lol. But, if you manage to get some lollips, don't forget to share them around with your friends here at ASF :


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## Mr J (10 July 2009)

I just don't think what I do is hard work. I know what I like, and if I see it I'll place the trade. There's not much thought going on, just pattern recognition. The hard work is probably changing personality to be suitable for trading (discipline, patience, emotional strength etc), but I took care of that well before I started trading.



> To get to any competent level in the market does require work & experience.




I may not meet your definition of competent, but I'm profitable, and it wasn't due to a great deal of work or experience. Maybe some methods require a lot of effort and experience, while others don't. Mine certainly doesn't, although experience will refine it.

I'm not suggesting that trading is easy for everyone, just that it is not necessarily hard work and doesn't necessarily require a large amount of time before one becomes profitable. Everyone seems to suggest it, and it just isn't true for all.



> But, if you manage to get some lollips, don't forget to share them around with your friends here at ASF




My lollipops are just following trends, planning to enter just after a retracement ends. That is my strategy, and it is that simple. It may not work for everyone, but for me it is a natural and simple method that takes little time or experience.


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## Aussiest (10 July 2009)

Hmm, i think the 'work' in trading comes from learning your money managment, that stop losses actually exist, and perhaps studying the interplay of economic data and human psychology (ie, what do people react to?). If trading short term, perhaps the announcements aren't as important, but i think there is a sort of practice of familiarity that needs to take place before one can trade competently. 

Eg, it is experience that would teach somebody to get out of a losing trade quickly. A less experienced trader might not have the gumshen to do this, hence blowing up their account sooner.

You probably developed a great deal of self control and emotional resilience during your card playing days Mr J. I think that these things need to be developed by a trader as well. Just my


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## Mr J (10 July 2009)

> You probably developed a great deal of self control and emotional resilience during your card playing days Mr J.




I won't deny it. My previous gambling activities have allowed me to slot into trading quite comfortably, but I still believe that trading itself can be quite simple. Having the discipline, patience, tolerance, responsibility etc is something else altogether. I needed quite a bit of experience to truly appreciate all of that, but possibly because I didn't have anyone to drill home the importance of these. It also doesn't change the fact that what I do is very simple :.


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## Krusty the Klown (10 July 2009)

Don't forget to read as many books on the subject as you can find, you don't have to follow the advice in all of them, but it should give you some perspective.


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## Aussiest (10 July 2009)

Mr J said:


> It also doesn't change the fact that what I do is very simple :.




But, wouldn't you say that you had to study / watch the market for a while to establish the sort of patterns you'd like to trade


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## Mr J (10 July 2009)

Aussiest said:


> But, wouldn't you say that you had to study / watch the market for a while to establish the sort of patterns you'd like to trade




Not really, because I used the same basic concepts in sportsbetting. I fell into that thinking in sportsbetting very quickly after I decided to stop using a service (a legit service) and started concentrating on only making my own bets. It never took any work on my part, I just thought it up and went along with it.


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## Assassin (10 July 2009)

So today I submitted an application and sent off the signed paperwork to open an account with CommSec. I'll use this mostly for the market tools and use it alongside the ASX game and get comfortable with it before using it when I invest my own money next year. 

Is there anything else I should organise before I start? I've been trying to look at the education classes on the ASX site but none of them are working which is frustrating me a little bit.

I don't know if I'm trying to make too much happen too quickly. But even though I'm a lot better off than I was, I'm still struggling to get my head around making the bigger things I need to sort out happen like starting a career and making some money to try and clear the debt I left when things crashed out a couple of years ago.

Did anyone here ever have like a mentor type of person to help you through share trading at the beginning? I had an idea today to submit something like an ad in the Fin Review newspaper to ask for someone to send me an email with advice from those who have built up some wealth and built successful careers, but I found out that the Fin Review doesn't have a classifieds type of thing so this idea is a difficult one to make happen. Is there anywhere someone can go to try and find something like this or even somewhere to just get advice?


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## alwaysLearning (11 July 2009)

Assassin said:


> Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I'll put the 4k out of my mind for the rest of the year and just concentrate on putting away as much money as I can and learn as much as possible from reading and asking questions on here and playing the ASX game and the re-evaluate at the beginning of next year.




Forget about the ASX game. You want to learn how to trade, then forex is one of the best ways to do it. The skills you get from here are transferable to the stock market.

The problem with the ASX game and other stock market related stuff is that you can't practice and see the market at an intra-day level in real time unless you have an account with a broker with a certain amount of money in there.

If you do what I'm suggesting then you can see how irrational the markets are and actually practice trading at an intra day level. You'll learn way faster. After you gain basic skills here, then you'll have a better idea if trading is what you really want to do.

https://fx2.oanda.com/mod_perl/register/register.pl

http://www.forexfactory.com/calendar.php

http://www.babypips.com/school/

Some quick advice: Do not open a live account and trade until you are profitable doing demo trading. Once you have doubled your demo account whilst risking a max of 1% per trade, then you can open a small tiny live account. 

Double your small live account while risking at a max of 1% per trade and then you are in a position to expand your live account a little.

So, I'm suggesting that you learn currency trading first because you have free access to demo accounts which are very accurate and provide you with free charting tools and indicators etc. You can learn how technical analysis works and be in a position to practice money management by using stop losses etc.

Note that technical analysis on its own is no holy grail. Money Management is the most important thing to learn about when it comes to trading in addition to developing an 'edge'.

Finally, don't blow your money trading. Seriously, if you stuff up, you can lose all your money in 'seconds'. I kid you not, 'seconds' if you don't know what you're doing.

Take your time and learn to trade properly. Trading I think is more about getting rich slowly rather than getting rich quick. Don't give up though because when you know what you are doing, $4k can turn into a hell of a lot over a few short years.


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## skyQuake (11 July 2009)

Disagree slightly, FX is a whole new game compared to stocks. Its on a completely different level. However it is MUCH faster than stocks, and you can learn a lot about _trading_ in a relatively shorter timeframe. 

Why not play the ASX game and trade forex demo?


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## alwaysLearning (11 July 2009)

skyQuake said:


> Disagree slightly, FX is a whole new game compared to stocks. Its on a completely different level. However it is MUCH faster than stocks, and you can learn a lot about _trading_ in a relatively shorter timeframe.
> 
> Why not play the ASX game and trade forex demo?




FX is a different beast to the stock market but the basic way to learn how to trade would be virtually identical. (except perhaps with the analysis of volume--unless you are trading currency futures, and the lack of DOM(depth of market)).

Agree though that you'll learn a lot, very very quickly if you trade currency.

The best thing is having excellent charting tools and real time quotes all for free in the demo account. I really believe that one has to see charts in realtime to know how trading works because when you look at end of day candle sticks and look only at static candle charts, you don't really see how price responds at particular levels in real time. 

It's amazing to watch price struggle at a major support or resistance level, and you can count how many times price tries to break a particular level, and fails. If it keeps failing then that tells you something. It's not that it gives you a guaranteed knowledge of the direction of price but it does give you a hint of what is more likely to happen in the immediate short term. Or if you watch in realtime as price blows through a daily central pivot point, it too tells you something. But with EOD data you don't get much of an appreciation of these things I think.

It is fine to use purely EOD data to trade I just think that a new person to trading should see how market moves even on a 1minute time frame or 5min time frame, and tick chart to see how irrational the market can be.

And yeah, he can do both stocks and trade forex demo at the same time if he has the time and wants to do that.

The other thing is that having some idea of how currency works can only be beneficial when he starts trading equities anyway. His analysis might look at a sector such as commodities/mining and correlations with the Dollar index, and that might be a signal to look out for something in a group of stocks.


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## Mr J (11 July 2009)

> but the basic way to learn how to trade would be virtually identical




I agree with this. Obviously different markets, but at the end of the day they're both still markets, and share a lot of characteristics.



> Take your time and learn to trade properly. Trading I think is more about getting rich slowly rather than getting rich quick. Don't give up though because when you know what you are doing, $4k can turn into a hell of a lot over a few short years.




Agree with this as well. Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. Be patient, responsible, and hang in there. Very few incomes out there can achieve the growth and scalability of trading.


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## wonderrman (11 July 2009)

Come back in a bull market and you might be able to do it. A lot harder when everything is going down or remaining in a 'neutral' stage like it is now. 

Depends on your personality I think, if you can remain completely unemotional and let your stops do the work I think it would be possible for someone to do reasonably well with only limited knowledge; in a bull market that is.

Starting with $4K is hard though as commission with Commsec will hurt you if you are only putting 500 - 1k in each position. You don't want to have to much risk by having $1 to $2K in one stock either. 

w.


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## Julia (11 July 2009)

Assassin said:


> I've been trying to look at the education classes on the ASX site but none of them are working which is frustrating me a little bit.



I've just had a look and they are working well.  Here is just one section that I accessed to check:
http://www.asx.com.au/products/pdf/getting_started_in_shares.pdf

Let us know if you're still having trouble.


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## feltonw (11 July 2009)

use you want to practice with fx, then dl a demo account with FXCM. live data and good tools. hours of good fun even though its not real money on the stake.


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## Assassin (13 July 2009)

Ok so I've read through tonnes of information and I've still got two questions (I apologise if these have been previously covered I must have just overlooked them)

1. How do you watch the stock market live? I can't seem to find any information on watching what stocks are doing what. I would like to be able to sit there with a list of stocks and watch them go up and down in real time.

2. When I put in a sell order for a share at a particular price, say the share has gone up 50c, does the sale happen immediately or do I actually have to wait for someone to buy it, in which time the price could drop again?


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## Trembling Hand (13 July 2009)

Assassin said:


> Ok so I've read through tonnes of information and I've still got two questions (I apologise if these have been previously covered I must have just overlooked them)
> 
> 1. How do you watch the stock market live? I can't seem to find any information on watching what stocks are doing what. I would like to be able to sit there with a list of stocks and watch them go up and down in real time.
> 
> 2. When I put in a sell order for a share at a particular price, say the share has gone up 50c, does the sale happen immediately or do I actually have to wait for someone to buy it, in which time the price could drop again?




There are 3 types of data available from various sources, mostly from your broker but also data providers.

1. End of day (EOD)  basically it will provide the open, close. highest, lowest prices and volume traded.

2. Delayed which is free from most brokers and websites like yahoo & MSN. Normally 20 minutes delayed.

3. Live. Which will just about always cost you a monthly subscription fee from your broker or data provider. For the ASX that can be from $40 up to $200 per month. This will be the actual live trade price plus various other info like orders that are sitting in the market.


As for placing order they will be sent straight through to the market (millisecs to seconds). It will be executed at the best price offered by other traders who have orders sitting in the market. This takes a little getting your head around. Maybe look at these vids to see orders taking place,

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312502&postcount=21


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## Aussiest (13 July 2009)

Be very careful alwayslearning, this guy has been homeless and needs to get himself on his feet. I agree with another poster, forex is a whole other game. I have never been profitable in forex, but have been in share trading. So, my advice to Assassin is:

Good on you for opening the Commsec account. You will be able to get live data from this. Just type in the stock code and you will see depth of market: the buyers and sellers for that particular share. You will see orders go in to the market in real time. Their charting is not that good, but it is a good place to start for 'live action'. Remember, it's one step at a time. 

Do not get carried away with the 'get rich quick' schemes that other posters here might advocate. You came here for share trading advice and i think you should stick with that. A lot of professionals say you should stick with 1 or 2 instruments and specialise in them. You have made a good start, do not detract from your path. Come back here when you are rich and buy us all a beer :


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## kam75 (14 July 2009)

Assassin said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Have just started looking into wealth creation after having recently got myself out of homelessness after a year and a half. I am looking to throw a bit of money towards share trading and I have just signed up for the ASX Sharemarket game and plan to use that until the end of the year to learn as much as I can about share trading while I save up some more money to invest for real in the market.
> 
> ...




Forget about making money.  You need to have a plan for not losing your own money first.  It does not matter what you trade, you got to have a set of rules. Try to save at least 5-10k and get educated before you start to play.  Why do I say this?  Well lets just say that there's plenty of people out there with 20 or 30 years of experience waiting for newbies like you to take money off.  Your first goal for at least the next few months after you write down your rules and test them on paper in the market should be CAPITAL PRESERVATION.  Thats CAPITAL PRESERVATION with a capital 'P'.  Focus on controling your losses and managing your money properly.


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