# Volume Spread Analysis (VSA)



## Smack (21 April 2013)

What software is proficient in analysing VSA for ASX equities?

I have read Tom Williams books on VSA and know that he sells the tradeguide Sw.

But, not interested in this Sw.

What code can i develop myself to interrogate vsa?

What indicators already exist that best represents vsa?

Smack


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## CanOz (21 April 2013)

Smack said:


> What software is proficient in analysing VSA for ASX equities?
> 
> I have read Tom Williams books on VSA and know that he sells the tradeguide Sw.
> 
> ...




Amibroker....


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## Smack (21 April 2013)

Thanks.

What is the best signal feed into this sw from an intraday or eod perspective?

What vsa techniques can be used on intraday timeframe?

What is the best intraday timeframe used for vsa on regular high range stocks like bhp?

Smack


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## CanOz (21 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Thanks.
> 
> What is the best signal feed into this sw from an intraday or eod perspective?
> 
> ...




If you want Intra-day data then eSignal works really well with Amibroker. If its equities though, you might want IB, no idea on eSignal with equities. 

I think there is a VSA for Amibroker code kicking around on the Amibroker sharing sites, Reckon Captain Black may know more though He's like busy moving house...

If i have some time here after dinner i'll having a little look around for you though...

CanOz


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## pavilion103 (21 April 2013)

Why not buy Tradeguider? I did, great decision.

I've found the other VSA codes to be less than satisfactory. 

It doesn't seem be to able to be coded easily.


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## CanOz (21 April 2013)

CanOz said:


> If you want Intra-day data then eSignal works really well with Amibroker. If its equities though, you might want IB, no idea on eSignal with equities.
> 
> I think there is a VSA for Amibroker code kicking around on the Amibroker sharing sites, Reckon Captain Black may know more though He's like busy moving house...
> 
> ...





*This guy* has coded a version of VSA....


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## CanOz (21 April 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> Why not buy Tradeguider? I did, great decision.
> 
> I've found the other VSA codes to be less than satisfactory.
> 
> It doesn't seem be to able to be coded easily.




I did too, worst money ever spent on software:frown:...support was non-existent. They shifted around the accounts on me and i ended up not being able to log in and confirm my subby to the app, it was rendered useless and they wouldn't fix it I had the RT version, about $1000 at the time. They're all marketing, no support.:bad:

Amibrokeris a far more flexible piece of kit at a better price.

CanOz


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## Smack (21 April 2013)

Thanks guys.

Sorry to hear of your tradeguide experience canoz.

Smack


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## Smack (21 April 2013)

Pavi
Io103.

What evidence can u provide that the other codes are not satisfactory?

Smack


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## captain black (22 April 2013)

CanOz said:


> I think there is a VSA for Amibroker code kicking around on the Amibroker sharing sites, Reckon Captain Black may know more though He's like busy moving house...
> CanOz




G'day CanOz, not quite in Tassie yet, still waiting to see where the NBN fibre gets rolled out to by September before making a decision on which town to move to 

"smack",As far as VSA for Amibroker goes the VSA yahoo group has all the code and documentation in the files section. You'll need to join the group to access the files section. There's plenty of copies floating around on the web as well and in various forums. 

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Amibroker-VSA/

There's no DLL's or hidden functions in the code so you're free to modify it as you wish. Karthik who wrote the code is a top bloke so if you find it useful then drop him a line 

There's also a port of Karthik's code for Ninjatrader. Haven't used it as I do all my stuff in Amibroker AFL and can't write Ninjatrader code but it's there if you decide to head down the Ninjatrader path. All software has it's good and bad points. Find what works for you and then get to know it inside out 

http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/forum/showthread.php?t=12908


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## captain black (22 April 2013)

Another option I just remembered is Todd Krueger is planning on bringing out some VSA software at some stage that may be worth a look at:

http://www.traderscode.com/software.html

His weekly video lessons are worth signing up to as well. You'll see the box on the left hand side to enter your name and email address. I use a specific email address for each site and haven't received any spam from Todd so it's safe to sign up to.


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## Smack (22 April 2013)

Thanks capt.

Lots of reading ahead...

Is vsa good to use on a 5 min timframe for intraday trading?

If not what timeframe is ideal for vsa for intraday trading?

Smack


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## captain black (22 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Is vsa good to use on a 5 min timframe for intraday trading?
> 
> If not what timeframe is ideal for vsa for intraday trading?




There's no definitive answer to what is the best time frame to use on what particular instrument. Only through back testing, walk forward testing and real time sim trading will you be able to work out what works for you and what doesn't. I don't mean to sound cryptic about it but there's really only one way to find out...


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## Smack (22 April 2013)

Thanks capt.

What sw and too
S do u use for this back testing, fprward walking, etc?

Smack


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## captain black (22 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Thanks capt.
> 
> What sw and too
> S do u use for this back testing, fprward walking, etc?
> ...




I use Amibroker for all my testing. Back testing and walf forward testing are built in. For real time sim trading I use Zeroline trader for the DOM (depth of market) and order placement. I believe Ninjatrader has all these functions built in as well although CanOz or someone else would know more about ninja than me.

http://www.zerolinetrader.com/index.htm


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## Smack (22 April 2013)

Thanks capt.

How does zeroline trader take into account the bids and asks that actually occurred for the period of time in question?

How does it accommodate this data?

Smackk


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## captain black (22 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Thanks capt.
> 
> How does zeroline trader take into account the bids and asks that actually occurred for the period of time in question?
> 
> ...




It's just a "plugin" for Interactive Brokers. The data feed comes directly from Interactive Brokers. ZLT doesn't store the data in a database like charting software, it's simply a tool to use for placing orders into Interactive Brokers Trader workstation.


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## Smack (22 April 2013)

Thanks capt.

Are u successful trading with vsa techniques?

Any tips/traps you can advise?

Smack


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## captain black (22 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Are u successful trading with vsa techniques?




Not sure if what I do fits into what the VSA purists would consider VSA but it works for me 



Smack said:


> Any tips/traps you can advise?




Only what I've written in a post above:

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26652&p=767925&viewfull=1#post767925

Find your place in the sun, don't let anyone tell you what is the right or wrong software or technique to use. Test everything and find your way. Learn how to code in whatever software code you end up choosing.


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## Smack (22 April 2013)

Thanks capt.

Good advice.

No doubt you have read me other current thread in this same sub forum.

Are you able to provide your opinions on my last post in that thread?

Smack


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## captain black (22 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Are you able to provide your opinions on my last post in that thread?




Not really, I think skyQuake has summed things up pretty well.


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## Smack (22 April 2013)

Thanks capt.

It is still not clear to me who is the "big money" that drove this market down?

Can you assist?

Smack


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## CanOz (22 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Thanks capt.
> 
> It is still not clear to me who is the "big money" that drove this market down?
> 
> ...




Smack, use your imagination...like SkyQuake says, it depends on the circumstances. Generally big money are those with deep enough pockets that can upset the inventory balance and affect the price. 

You don't need to know who it is to be profitable.

CanOZ


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## pavilion103 (22 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Pavi
> Io103.
> 
> What evidence can u provide that the other codes are not satisfactory?
> ...




No real evidence. Just a feel from when I used it. Give it a go, you might like it. There are just so many considerations to take into account when using VSA. I just wonder if sometimes the code can be a bit rigid. 

I don't even really take much notice of the Tradeguider signals. I used it a lot when I was first learning and found it to be great because of the descriptions and the signals that weren't obvious to me at first. But like any art, once you spend a lot of time studying it it starts to become a bit more instinctive and what wasn't obvious before is often processed subconcsiously.

See what works for you


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## Smack (22 April 2013)

Thanks guys.

Pav - what timefreame do u use for tradeguider sw?

You raised a good point about othrr codes being too rigid.  I may reconsider.
Smack


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## Lone Wolf (22 April 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> Why not buy Tradeguider?
> I've found the other VSA codes to be less than satisfactory.
> 
> It doesn't seem be to able to be coded easily.




Even TG themselves don't have a solid standard. I have Stand-alone EOD as well as the NinjaTrader add-in, they don't give the same signals.

See the attached comparison. Same database loaded into both. There are a few signals that appear on one but not the other. I highlighted one on the NT version that doesn't appear on EOD. The NT version considers it an up bar, despite the close being slightly lower than the open. Differences appear on most charts, ANZ was just the first one I clicked on.

There are also cases where they both give a signal, but give different reasons for it.

Did they code it differently or poorly? I don't know. I use it as a learning tool much like Pav mentioned. See the signal, read the description, try to understand the reasoning. The general principles may be valid, but even tradeguiders code isn't perfect.


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## Smack (22 April 2013)

Good one lone wolf.

Which sw do u prefer for vsa learning and why?

What eod source do u use?



Smack


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## Lone Wolf (23 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Good one lone wolf.
> 
> Which sw do u prefer for vsa learning and why?
> 
> What eod source do u use?




For EOD data I use Premium Data "Norgate Investor Services".

TradeGuider is the best for learning since you can click on each signal and get a detailed description of what you're looking for. But you need to pay for it. You said in your first post that you aren't interested in it.

I can't comment on the free code since I only used it very briefly.

You sound very focused on software. If you're looking for software that does the analysis for you and tells you when to buy and sell - To my knowledge no such software currently exists. There is software like TG or the free code for Amibroker that generates a signal under certain conditions, but you need experience to know what to do with that signal.

You need education and lots of time watching the markets trying to apply that education. Read about the principles in the books. Try to find examples on your charts. Captain Black took free code and incorporated it into his own style. There's more then one way to succeed if you put the time and effort in.

You said you've read Master the markets by Tom Williams. Gavin Holmes put out a book that was basically a description of all the signals which is good if you weren't going to use TG software. "Trading in the shadow of the smart money" I think it was.

The options given to you earlier in this thread are the only ones I know about.


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## Smack (23 April 2013)

Fantastic lone wolf.  Thanks.

Looks like i may well buy the tradeguide sw for the education aspect.

Smack


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## pavilion103 (23 April 2013)

One point that I was reminded of this morning that's wanted to mention is that the signals are not to be used as buy or sell signals. They are indicators of price action and make us think about what could likely happen in the future. 

Combine these signals with good VSA analysis. Look for other confluence to further support your analysis.

Do you have the Wyckoff book/course from I think the 1930's. I read this all the time as my primary learning tool.

As mentioned and was also mentioned above, Tradeguider is good for learning and has good indicator descriptions. Get your hands on that Gavin Holmes book too mentioned above.
BUT don't get too caught up on the software side of things. Study VSA and learn it so that you can even apply it to charts without VSA indicators.


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## Smack (23 April 2013)

Agreed.

Thanks pav!

Smack


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## Smack (23 April 2013)

What other indicators do u use to confirm vsa signals?

What timframe do u monitor during intraday trading?

Smack


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## pavilion103 (23 April 2013)

Look at where the signals are appearing. In relation to various support/resistance levels, retracement levels, background action, where is the stock in the broader trend, etc. 

I don't trade intraday. I use daily charts and weekly charts for further confirmation. 

I like to keep it as simple as possible.


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## Smack (23 April 2013)

Thanks pav

Smack


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## banco (23 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Thanks capt.
> 
> Lots of reading ahead...
> 
> ...




I know Tech uses it intraday but I've found it to be much more useful on a daily/weekly timeframe.  Intraday is tougher I think because volume levels are heavily influenced by time of day and it's hard to distinguish the "time of day" effect from the "underlying" volume.


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## mr. jeff (23 April 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> One point that I was reminded of this morning that's wanted to mention is that the signals are not to be used as buy or sell signals. They are indicators of price action and make us think about what could likely happen in the future.
> 
> Combine these signals with good VSA analysis. Look for other confluence to further support your analysis.
> 
> ...




AGREE

I am sure that software helps some people but the worst thing I did was pay good money for it then get data and start paying for that as well. The version I got was a prehistoric lump of a confusing program and whilst I could see the idea, reading the book was far far better and probably the best move I ever made in learning. 

When I had TG I started trying to use it to give me signals to trade from rather than printing a chart out and marking it up and making my own plan. Basically it gave me a chance to defer to someone else which did not work that well.

Everyone is different, but don't ever think a program is going to give you a special edge without a lot of development.


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## Smack (26 April 2013)

Thanks guys.

Mr.jeff - you refer to a prehistoric version of tg.  Is there a more current version in use now?

Banco - can you elaborate more on time of day heavily influencing volume.

Smack


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## Mistagear (26 April 2013)

pavilion103 said:


> One point that I was reminded of this morning that's wanted to mention is that the signals are not to be used as buy or sell signals. They are indicators of price action and make us think about what could likely happen in the future.
> 
> Combine these signals with good VSA analysis. Look for other confluence to further support your analysis.
> 
> ...




I also use Wyckoff as my primary. Have avoided using any VSA software and prefer the analysis should happen in my head because of understanding the volume and price relationship, not done by software.

As far as timeframes, on many Aus equities I personally find the lack of liquidity makes periods less than 10 minutes more difficult to read reliably whereas with US Index Futures I'm comfortable using 1min charts during the cash session. I often use both a time chart and a volume chart during the cash session for better vision on what the opposing forces are doing.


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## Smack (27 April 2013)

Mistagear said:


> I also use Wyckoff as my primary........ As far as timeframes, on many Aus equities I personally find the lack of liquidity makes periods less than 10 minutes more difficult to read reliably whereas with US Index Futures I'm comfortable using 1min charts during the cash session.




Thanks Mistagear.

Do you also use point and figure analysis charting if wyckoff is your primary?

In your opinion, what defines an acceptable amount of liquidity for you to trade in periods < 10 mins for Aus equities market ?

How do you measure this parameter of liquidity?

What is your opinion on using 5 min. periods?


Smack


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## banco (27 April 2013)

Smack said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Mr.jeff - you refer to a prehistoric version of tg.  Is there a more current version in use now?
> 
> ...




I mean that if you are looking at volume during the day nearly all instruments have high volume at certain times of the day.  If you look at say stocks the first and the last hour have the most volume so if you're looking to analyse intra-day volume you have to take that into account.


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## Smack (28 April 2013)

thank you.


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## Mistagear (10 May 2013)

Smack said:


> Thanks Mistagear.
> 
> Do you also use point and figure analysis charting if wyckoff is your primary?
> 
> ...




Smack,
sorry for the late reply, I visit here very infrequently.

Am less likely to use P&F than Volume/Bar/C'stick chart however, where I see P&F as an advantage, the P&F chart takes longer to reveal it's message. That can be quite useful at times to allow a situation to develop rather than jump in too early.

Liquidity... A judgement call rather than some mathematical measurement. Once you feel comfortable with your ability to read price and volume cause and effect, the time period to suit you becomes fairly obvious in that the story the chart is telling becomes difficult to read if you pick too short timeframe.
For Aus equities I hardly ever use a 5min chart, I personally feel many aggressive bots chase the various T/A indicators/divergences etc and take advantage of many traders by triggering entries/stops. I look at swings in intra-day sentiment and try to tailor my own trading to suit.
The difference for me in US Futures is in the depth of trading styles participating concurrently, this tends to result in a more pure form of price action, preventing the market from being skewed by any particular group or style. That allows you to use smaller timeframes for reading sentiment. (My preferred chart is a Volume Chart)
Everything I have said above should be taken in the context that every trader has to develop their own style and comfort zone, what suits one may not work for another and usually does not.
Hope you get something of use out of this post


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## mr. jeff (10 May 2013)

Smack said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Mr.jeff - you refer to a prehistoric version of tg.  Is there a more current version in use now?
> 
> ...




Looks to be the same version as is currently available.


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