# And we are off - Aboriginal leaders say $1 billion 'not sorry enough'



## Aussie2Aussie (18 December 2007)

My Great, Great Uncle was stolen, can I have $50,000 for the emotional trauma that this caused me.



ABORIGINAL leaders have rallied behind a push for massive compensation for the Stolen Generations, but a former indigenous adviser to the Howard government has warned that the Rudd Government must not be dragged back into issues of "toxic symbolism".

While the Federal Government has attempted to sidestep the issue of compensation for the Stolen Generations, Aboriginal academics Boni Robertson and Gracelyn Smallwood yesterday upped the ante, saying it should be much higher than the $1 billion suggested by lawyer Michael Mansell.

Professor Robertson said $1billion was "really quite minimal" and "just a starting point", while Ms Smallwood said it would be "very generous to the Government" and should be double or triple that amount. 'Apology not enough' "It's very simple," Ms Smallwood told The Australian.

"You can't just apologise, you've got to mean it and the only way to prove that is through compensation. You can't reconcile without it."

As the Rudd Government moves towards a national apology, Wesley Aird, a member of the Howard government's hand-picked National Indigenous Council, warned Labor against being dragged back into "toxic symbolism", and said some Aboriginal leaders now seeking to re-engage with government had presided over "an era of hopelesseness".

"I don't believe anyone is going to have a better life just because the Government says sorry," Mr Aird said. Indigenous Affairs Minister Jenny Macklin met members of the NIC last week.

She said yesterday its role was "still being considered". At the meeting, Sue Gordon, who has chaired both the council and the Northern Territory intervention taskforce, urged the Government to make a broad apology to all of those affected by the removal of Aboriginal children - not just to the children who were removed.

"If there's going to be an apology, I didn't want sorry to me, I wanted it to my mother and my brother who saw me taken away and looked for me," Ms Gordon said.

"It's all those people who need to be part of it." She urged the Government to consult widely on the wording of the apology, but said it was important not to get "hung up onwords".

"Cruel" and "evil" Jackie Huggins, the former co-chair of Reconciliation Australia, said the word "sorry" was essential and the words "cruel" and "evil" - as used in a Canadian apology to indigenous children taken from their families - were appropriate.

Former prime minister Malcolm Fraser said an apology needed to recognise that the policy of child removal based on race was "disastrously wrong and terrible".

He said compensation needed to be discussed, but thought the priority should be in redressing the "gross and irresponsible massive underspending on health, housing and education".

Mr Fraser also took aim at dissident historian Keith Windschuttle, who maintains the Stolen Generations are a "fiction".

The former Liberal leader said that Territory ordinances and documents dating back to 1911 gave "total confirmation that it was a designed and deliberate act of policy". 

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22941961-5005941,00.html


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## surfingman (18 December 2007)

What a F'in joke this is......... They get their fair share maybe some work should be done like the rest of us.....

We shouldnt still be paying for what was done years ago....


I Need to say "SORRY" this really annoys me...


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## prawn_86 (18 December 2007)

All the following is my opinion only:

Compensatition is the exact reason why the Howard government did not apologise.

Lawyers will be loving it, and of course they will push for more, in order to get bigger comission. (Sorry to stereotype all those normal lawyers out there)

Is it an apology or the money that they want more?

Aboriginals already recieve a lot more help than other members of our society. IE - free education, paid to study at high school level etc etc

I feel sorry for those Aboriginals who are actually trying to get on with their lives and keep on having this dragged up before them.


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## Sean K (18 December 2007)

I was an Army Officer in Darwin involved with settling a compensation claim for the accidental shooting up of a sacred tree, near Tennant Creek. The Aboriginal council that was put together to discuss the compensation charged $XX per head just to turn up to the meeting. Some forgot to turn up and it took 3 meetings to settle the claim. Some who did not turn up demanded payment for their non attendance.

 Forget numbers, the fact there is a price on anything 'sacred' means that the stolen generation will be well compensated. 

I am not saying they do, or do not, deserve compensation, just that you can forget the notion that Aboriginals are not as litigious as the next American and will suck this for all it's worth.


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## Rafa (18 December 2007)

The scary thing is its the lawyers that are going to make a killing... if they do get compensation, i wonder how much will go into the lawyers pockets

The rest will probably go to the corrupt adminsitrative layer thats in charge of distribuiting the money... I wonder if the average aboriginal will see anything!

This whole compensation thing is a joke... as is this apology thing...

Yes, we are all sorry for what happened... but far out... native titles does exist now, and with the mining boom, there is enough oppurtunities break the cycle of poverty, if one wants too... (that goes for non aboriginals too)

Focus needs to be on aboriginal health, education, secutity and infrastructure.... (infact, the same applies for non aborignals too... we have too much govt in this country doing too many things)...

I might start a new thread on this in general...


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## ithatheekret (18 December 2007)

We are talking about children torn from the arms of their parents , do gooders did this .

So did the Nazis !


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## jonojpsg (18 December 2007)

Yeah come on people - Australia did actually legally belong to the Aboriginal people before the Brits invaded.  The recompense that has been made so far (if you compounded what they should have received back in 1788) is only part of the way back to being an even playing field IMO


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## prawn_86 (18 December 2007)

jonojpsg said:


> Yeah come on people - Australia did actually legally belong to the Aboriginal people before the Brits invaded.  The recompense that has been made so far (if you compounded what they should have received back in 1788) is only part of the way back to being an even playing field IMO




Lots of different countries belonged to lots of different people who never recieved compensation after they were "invaded".


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## Sean K (18 December 2007)

prawn_86 said:


> Lots of different countries belonged to lots of different people who never recieved compensation after they were "invaded".



Maybe the compensation has been made? 

They live longer, are more wealthy, and most significantly - have the  wheel.......... the list goes on................. like electricity....etc etc

What have Aborginals provided: hand prints on rocks, Michael Long, and..... 


Having taken an easy swipe at their failures, perhaps they were the height of 'our' existance and materialism is on the downward slope, like I am tending towards...


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## surfingman (18 December 2007)

jonojpsg said:


> Yeah come on people - Australia did actually legally belong to the Aboriginal people before the Brits invaded.  The recompense that has been made so far (if you compounded what they should have received back in 1788) is only part of the way back to being an even playing field IMO




Was there a law in Australia then? Maybe unwritten, The only reason there getting claims granted is the Brits didn't state they saw natives when first settled, therefore terra nullius (land of no owner or empty land). Therefore Brits law could be used, this was found later to be untrue and so some of the laws and titles reverts back to the natives, but not all (apparently).

Far worse actions have been made by Governments against there residents and millions of $ aren't paid out.

The stolen generation? Click here, some of things that go on in these aboriginal communities the children should be taken away.

I am not racist in any way, there needs to be some equality in this Country, we all have 2 feet and we need to start standing on them for ourselves, not sponging of the system.


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## nioka (18 December 2007)

jonojpsg said:


> Yeah come on people - Australia did actually legally belong to the Aboriginal people before the Brits invaded.  The recompense that has been made so far (if you compounded what they should have received back in 1788) is only part of the way back to being an even playing field IMO




 I didn't invade. I was born here. So was my mother and father. My grandmother was born here and so were my three children and so were my nine grandchildren. My grandfathers came out from England and earnt their place by settling in the bush and working hard to make ends meet. I'm sure they did their bit to make the country what it is today. I've got nothing to apologise for. Aboriginals have been compensated heaps in the last 20 years and any that aren't living with the same standards as I have should look in a mirror and see who is to blame. Some of the stolen ones were lucky and now have it a lot better rhan they otherwise would have had.


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## greggy (18 December 2007)

ithatheekret said:


> We are talking about children torn from the arms of their parents , do gooders did this .
> 
> So did the Nazis !



Please don't compare the plight of the Aboriginal people with the Nazis.  I know a number of people who suffered greatly during WW2 and survived the Holocaust.  
Aboriginal children taken away from their parents, often for no reason other than the fact that they were Aboriginal, is an absolute disgrace.  If a one off final settlement could be worked out without greedy lawyers getting involved, perhaps similar to the Tasmanian Government's approach (from memory they have set up a $5 million fund), then this might be the best solution for all. IMO a formal apology first needs to take place in the federal parliament. It seems that many in the opposition's ranks would also support such a move.  I reckon its about time we all move forward together as "one people".


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## chops_a_must (18 December 2007)

greggy said:


> Please don't compare the plight of the Aboriginal people with the Nazis.  I know a number of people who suffered greatly during WW2 and survived the Holocaust.



You do realise that Australia is one of the only places where genocide has been successfully completed on a large scale don't you? Comparison indeed...


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## stormbringer (18 December 2007)

The english came, saw and conquered. They are a conquered race and lets not forget this. Furthermore, many of the "stolen generation" were handed over to the authorities because the new born's were halfcast, which is not acceptable, and would been murdered more than likely. 
I spent 6 yrs in the territory, and saw alot of **** that you would not believe. They still behave like the rock apes that the english discovered here over 200 yrs ago, seriously, they have no idea on how too integtrate into a modern society, in fact, I'm pretty sure they don't want to. Just give them cash, and they're happy as pigs in ****, although the pigs are easier on the nose : )) They will only blow it anyway, buying cruiser's and pallet loads of VB. Give it 6 months, maybe a yr, and what they would have bought would be a total wreck. They don't give a **** about anything, let alone bettering themselves.
I'm not racist, I just don't like handouts going to those who aren't prepared to help themselves.


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## numbercruncher (18 December 2007)

Perhaps the bill should be sent to the British Government, leave us poor Aussies and those who identify as such alone 

And while we are at it, descendants of people Booted out of Britain for stealing an apple and forced into hard labor camps etc should tap their claims on as well ?


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## greggy (18 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> You do realise that Australia is one of the only places where genocide has been successfully completed on a large scale don't you? Comparison indeed...




I have indeed studied Aboriginal history, but in discussing the stolen generation I didn't think that comparisons with the Nazis was warranted.  In this thread we're largely referring to the stolen generation and my comments were in relation to that.  
The true extent of Aboriginal genocide will never be known. Agreed that nonetheless it was truly horrific...And that's why Chops A Must I participated in the National Sorry March.


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## chops_a_must (18 December 2007)

surfingman said:


> What a F'in joke this is......... They get their fair share maybe some work should be done like the rest of us.....
> 
> We shouldnt still be paying for what was done years ago....
> 
> ...




Unfortunately, when you make a mistake, you have to face up to the consequences. When the mistakes are institutionalised, then the costs for those mistakes carry on for generations, ala the catholic church, JHX and even Australian governments.

I think it would be wrong for the catholic church not to apologise to abuse victims, or for James Hardie to do the same to their asbestos victims. Why would it be different for the federal government then? I don't think people realise that it's not them personally that will be made to feel "guilty", but rather, it would be an acknowledgment that departments in the past did the wrong thing. I note yesterday that the sate WA government apologised to british orphans abused in foster care. I don't hear a massive outcry about that.

Most Australians would like to hear an apology from the Japanese government regarding treatment of POWs. How are the current generation responsible? Answer, they aren't. The problem being, is a lack of apology at an institutional level, is seen as a total lack of contrition, and is tied in with the total denial of the issue as a whole. This was pretty evident in reports tabled by the Howard junta, and comments from that absolute joke of a man, John Herron.

As far as I'm aware, stolen generation compensation claims have been tested in court already. And no, I don't think compo will help. Money would be far better spent in Aboriginal communities as a whole.

But unless we are prepared to compromise on really superficial things, what hope is there in dealing with the real problems?


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## surfingman (18 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Unfortunately, when you make a mistake, you have to face up to the consequences. When the mistakes are institutionalised, then the costs for those mistakes carry on for generations, ala the catholic church, JHX and even Australian governments.
> 
> I think it would be wrong for the catholic church not to apologise to abuse victims, or for James Hardie to do the same to their asbestos victims. Why would it be different for the federal government then? I don't think people realise that it's not them personally that will be made to feel "guilty", but rather, it would be an acknowledgment that departments in the past did the wrong thing. I note yesterday that the sate WA government apologised to british orphans abused in foster care. I don't hear a massive outcry about that.
> 
> ...




I hear your point, but how when do you say that's enough?

They have been making claims for land and $ for far too long, the majority of money goes to the bottle shop, and the community as a whole gets further problems. 

Give them an apology, I can assure you that won't be enough..... What's done is done, get on with running a country which has bigger issues on it's hands...


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## chops_a_must (18 December 2007)

surfingman said:


> I
> They have been making claims for land and $ for far too long



For what? 10 years as opposed to 210?


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## coolcricket (18 December 2007)

surfingman said:


> I hear your point, but how when do you say that's enough?
> 
> They have been making claims for land and $ for far too long, the majority of money goes to the bottle shop, and the community as a whole gets further problems.
> 
> Give them an apology, I can assure you that won't be enough..... What's done is done, get on with running a country which has bigger issues on it's hands...




I agree surfingman, move on, once an apology has been issued, they will seek compensation, piss it away on the grog, and then blame us, again.


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## moneymajix (18 December 2007)

*What about, "sorry", we invaded your country?*

What reparation do you get for that?

It would have to be more than a billion, wouldn't it?



Terra Nullius

In 1770 Captain James Cook landed in Botany Bay, home of the Eora people, and claimed possession of the East Coast of Australia for Britain under the doctrine of 'terra nullius'

According to the international law of Europe in the late 18th century, there were only three ways that Britain could take possession of another country:


1. If the country was uninhabited, Britain could claim and settle that country. In this case, it could claim ownership of the land.


2. If the country was already inhabited, Britain could ask for permission from the indigenous people to use some of their land. In this case, Britain could purchase land for its own use but it could not steal the land of the indigenous people.


3. If the country was inhabited, Britain could take over the country by invasion and conquest- in other words, defeat that country in war. However, even after winning a war, Britain would have to respect the rights of indigenous people.


*Strangely Britain did not follow any of these rules in Australia. Since there were already people living in Australia, Britain could not take possession by "settling" this country. However from the time of Captain Cook's arrival the British Government acted as if Australia were uninhabited. So, instead of admitting that it was invading land that belonged to Aboriginal people, Britain acted as it were settling an empty land. This is what is meant by the myth of terra nullius. *


Source

The myth of terra nullius NSW Board of Studies, 1995
Reproduced in the Sydney Morning Herald, 26 October 1996


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## 2020hindsight (18 December 2007)

Aussie2Aussie said:


> .. Former prime minister Malcolm Fraser said an apology needed to recognise that the policy of child removal based on race was "disastrously wrong and terrible".
> 
> He said compensation needed to be discussed, but thought the priority should be in redressing the "gross and irresponsible massive underspending on health, housing and education".
> 
> ...



I'd agree with Fraser.

PS this article on ABC is a few days old ... 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/13/2118056.htm


> *'Sorry' more important than compo to Stolen Generations:elder*   Posted Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:00pm AEDT
> 
> NAIDOC's joint Male Elder of the Year says an acknowledgment of injustice committed by the Federal Government is far more important than a compensation package for the Stolen Generations.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/12/2116257.htm


> *Compensation not part of saying sorry: Macklin*   Posted Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:33am AEDT
> Updated Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:32am AEDT
> 
> Federal Indigenous Affairs Minister Jenny Macklin says a compensation scheme for the Stolen Generations is not currently being considered as part of an official apology.
> ...


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## coolcricket (18 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> I'd agree with Fraser.
> 
> PS this article on ABC is a few days old ...
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/13/2118056.htm
> ...




While compensation may be secondary to the "Aboriginal elders", I bet that it is primary to the younger generations, the ones more akin to child and alcohol abuse.


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## disarray (18 December 2007)

yeah fine give them whatever they ask for and in return yank all the other aboriginal only welfare and policies. then 20 years down the track when they are still rotting away we'll get pangs of guilt and start paying for them again, but at least we won't have to go through this crap again and we can lecture them to our hearts content. p.s. i'm not sorry.


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## DB008 (18 December 2007)

I hate to say it, but l'm with Stormbringer on this one



> The english came, saw and conquered. They are a conquered race and lets not forget this. Furthermore, many of the "stolen generation" were handed over to the authorities because the new born's were halfcast, which is not acceptable, and would been murdered more than likely.
> I spent 6 yrs in the territory, and saw alot of **** that you would not believe. They still behave like the rock apes that the english discovered here over 200 yrs ago, seriously, they have no idea on how too integtrate into a modern society, in fact, I'm pretty sure they don't want to. Just give them cash, and they're happy as pigs in ****, although the pigs are easier on the nose : )) They will only blow it anyway, buying cruiser's and pallet loads of VB. Give it 6 months, maybe a yr, and what they would have bought would be a total wreck. They don't give a **** about anything, let alone bettering themselves.
> I'm not racist, I just don't like handouts going to those who aren't prepared to help themselves.




Unless you have seen it first hand, you have no idea what these people are like. You give them a house in the bush, they take everything outside and sleep under the stars anyways. The are different to us, good or bad we have to accept that.
I am not racist either. And I tolerate all kinds of race. BUT, giving them money is NOT going to solve anything. They will be back where they started 5 years from now.Compensation, well, the money will eventually flow back into the ecomony anyways. 

The whole world was build on nations conquering it, been going on for thousands of years.


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## hangseng (18 December 2007)

And people are surprised by this why? It was a given with Labour getting in, now be prepared to pay. Kennas your posts have it in one.

They have pursued this for no other reason than compensation, despite the constant "no we are not".

This does the Aboriginal cause no advancement and will cause nothing but a national rift all over again.

Healing? Absolute rubbish!

And before the bleeding hearts get started one of my best friends (I went to school and played footy with him until our 20's) is a full blood Noongya, he agrees with me.

Damn this makes my blood boil.


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## Buster (18 December 2007)

Ha Haa



ithatheekret said:


> We are talking about children torn from the arms of their parents , do gooders did this .
> 
> So did the Nazis !




Torn from the arms of the 'kiddie fiddler' communities you mean.. Maybe you're not aware of what has been revealed recently in NT.. Perhaps the 10 year old raped by 9 in Qld might be closer to home?  Do you really think that this hasn't been happening for many many years..  The Govt stepped in years ago and did what it thought (and what I still think) was the right thing and removed these kids for thier own protection.. and now we are supposed to apologise??  Get Real.

Unfortunately the Authorities of our time (now) are paralysed by the kerfuffle caused by the actions years ago (the so called 'stolen generation'), and are not removing the kids from the abusive environments that exist today. I certainly expect them to.. but they wont for fear of further 'stolen generations'.. 

I'll tip in 20 -  30 years we'll be asked for another apology, this time for not taking action, and leaving them in abusive situations (like the bullying compensation recently of 1 Mil).. of course you can't really mean it if you say sorry, you have to _REALLY _mean it and pay up..

Retch..

Buster


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## Buster (19 December 2007)

Choppa,



chops_a_must said:


> You do realise that Australia is one of the only places where genocide has been successfully completed on a large scale don't you? Comparison indeed...




Do a quick 'Google' of the word 'Genocide' mate.

I'm tipping you may find that your statement looks a little foolish in 'comparison'..  One of the only places??? Large scale?? Sheesh..

Regards,

Buster


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## numbercruncher (19 December 2007)

> Boredom, drugs blamed for sexual assault
> Boredom, overcrowded houses, drug use and pornography created the circumstances in which an 11-year-old boy was sexually assaulted by two adults and three juveniles at a remote Aboriginal community, a court heard.




http://au.news.yahoo.com/071218/2/15b00.html

Sure say sorry but omg spend the money "stealing" another generation for future generations sake plz. These communitys are just on an out of control spiral. How on earth could giving bored angry unemployed people money help ?


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## ithatheekret (19 December 2007)

Buster said:


> Ha Haa
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Your talking present , I was referring to past . And then .....  some do gooders would have been named recently in commissions such as the Mulligan enquiry if you want to get to the present .

But , where did the indigenous persons inclined to abuse young kiddies , pick up the habit ?
Where do the drugs and sniffing fuels , alcohol , etc., come from to push the isolated into such depravity ?

Who is it that sees such an advantage to do such things and how did they ever get so low on the human ladder ?

Out of sight out of mind and easy to abuse .

If the dead could talk , I'd be digging up a recently past MP and ringing it out of him . 

It's those like him we should be tarring with the same brush .

The fact remains this subject is an embarrassment for any government , the truth is it is happening in the cities too , and they are not aboriginals , just homeless and easy targets . They are regarded as inert !


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## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

Buster said:


> Choppa,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Tasmania.


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## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Tasmania.




The historical evidence relating to Tasmania can be arguged to incorrect, as Keith Windschuttle wrote in his book "The Fabrication of Aboriginal History".


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## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Keith Windschuttle



*snicker*


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## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

Regardless of whether it happened or not, sources that support the near extinction of Tasmanian Aboriginals, claim that the 5,000 Aboriginals in 1803, that were reduced to around 300 in 1833, died due to alcoholism and virulent diseases. It was therefore not a systematic, purposeful destruction of a people, aka, Genocide.


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## surfingman (19 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> For what? 10 years as opposed to 210?




10 years? I think you'll find Mabo v Queensland in 1992 was the turning point that opened the door for claims.

210 years? another great point there, what happened has happened a long time ago, whats done is done and money can't change history...


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## AndrewM123 (19 December 2007)

I wonder if that 9 y.o, girl wishes she had been "stolen "


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## 2020hindsight (19 December 2007)

hangseng said:


> 1. And people are surprised by this why? It was a given with Labour getting in, now be prepared to pay. Kennas your posts have it in one.
> 
> 2. They have pursued this for no other reason than compensation,  despite the constant "no we are not".
> 
> ...



you disappoint me hangseng

let's put it this way ..

suppose a court of law found they were entitled to compensation (stolen gen) - what would you say then ?

4. Healing? rubbish? whatever . 
so much mean spirited stuff being posted here
 - boil on.


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## surfingman (19 December 2007)

What about the 1000s or convicts that got sent to Port Arthur and were treating poorly and abused in slave labor leading to deaths? Can there relatives claim for millions of $ compo also, might make them feel better....


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## DB008 (19 December 2007)

1)
Give them the money then. It will be back in the economy within a few months. Don't sweat. I remember going to Tanami Gold Project (TAM) a few years ago for the offical opening. I think something like $20 Million was given over to the indigenous people for using their land. $20 MILLION!!!!! What do you think that they have done with that money.......probably nothing. Seriously, $20 Million for a small community. That's like winning the lotto. And l have to be honest here, almost all of the indigenous people that attended couldn't speak English either! I was very suprised when alot of them turned up from nowhere in the latest Toyota Landcruiser (Retail for between $70k to 100k)...where do they get the money for that l wondered to myself????

2)
There was a doco on SBS a few months ago relating to the indigenous people Tasmania. The doco said that once this compensation stuff came along, al of a sudden, people were claming to be 1/10 Aboriginal. and the worst part was, there were no records to prove otherwise. So the average person living next door started to claim. 

3) Don't compare them to the Nazis.....(please). That was a whole different level Chops.


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## websman (19 December 2007)

The Indians were in America, before Europeans invaded.  My Great Grandmother was a Cherokee Indian.  Should I get a large settlement as well?


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## stormbringer (19 December 2007)

To quote "ithatheekret"

"Where did the indigenous persons inclined to abuse young kiddies , pick up the habit ?
Where do the drugs and sniffing fuels , alcohol , etc., come from to push the isolated into such depravity ?

Who is it that sees such an advantage to do such things and how did they ever get so low on the human ladder ?

Out of sight out of mind and easy to abuse ."

Hmm, where do I start with this foolish comment???

1st. So, it was the white man who introduced sex crimes into black fella society, rofl, your an idiot, enough said : )
2nd. The white man did introduce all the good and the bad the world had to offer, but what does that have to do with the price of eggs??? We all have choices m8. I chose to belong to the greater society, but still enjoy both the good and the bad forms of entertainment to a degree.
3rd. "low on the human ladder", hello, they were using sticks to kill animals m8, didn't even have the wheel etc etc. I don't think of the indig as inferior, but you have to admit they are not the brightest sparks around, and before you quote great indig academics, they’d be mostly half cast, so are ineligible.
4th. We have educated them, housed them, given them every opportunity to mix with the greater society, better themselves and what do they choose to do with this greater knowledge...........jack ****. There are allways the exceptions, a minority.
Explain this to me, an indig woman walking along the street, squats, dumps her load, then carries on???? We say sorry and compensate, will it stop this from happening??? It's just so wrong m8, so wrong.


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## --B-- (19 December 2007)

The 'sorry' debate means nothing and wuill do nothing to help the aborignal people.

Any "apology" by the government (and therefore admission of responsibility / liability) will do nothing for the aboriginal people and will bring us no closer to 'reconciliation'..

aside from the obvious issue of "sorry" = "pay out billions in compensation", an apology for wrongdoings by past governments will only further strenghthen the victimhood mentality held by many aboriginal people.

the aboriginal people need to be encouraged to take responsibility for their own actions, removal of the dependence on welfare is key and simply saying sorry and throwing more money at them will do zero.


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## moxy (19 December 2007)

I wish this site would stay in the stocks arena. When all you right wing, Liberal lovers get off capital gains, things get very nasty. Reading the politics thread was a laugh, however this thread is pathetic.


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## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

moxy said:


> I wish this site would stay in the stocks arena. When all you right wing, Liberal lovers get off capital gains, things get very nasty. Reading the politics thread was a laugh, however *this thread is pathetic*.




Why even comment on this thread then. Just ignore it. It is in a seperate section to the Stock Market- "General Chat".


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## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Regardless of whether it happened or not, sources that support the near extinction of Tasmanian Aboriginals, claim that the 5,000 Aboriginals in 1803, that were reduced to around 300 in 1833, died due to alcoholism and virulent diseases. It was therefore not a systematic, purposeful destruction of a people, aka, Genocide.




Yeah, because they were lied to about being put on an island away from their land, mixed with other groups of people they had not been in contact with. Not purposeful my a*se. Just like the Warsaw ghetto was not purposeful hey? Not like the Nazis in this instance indeed...


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## --B-- (19 December 2007)

moxy said:


> I wish this site would stay in the stocks arena. When all you right wing, Liberal lovers get off capital gains, things get very nasty. Reading the politics thread was a laugh, however this thread is pathetic.




care to elaborate on your views moxy or you have nothing but pointless dribble to contribute?


----------



## dj_420 (19 December 2007)

disarray said:


> yeah fine give them whatever they ask for and in return yank all the other aboriginal only welfare and policies. then 20 years down the track when they are still rotting away we'll get pangs of guilt and start paying for them again, but at least we won't have to go through this crap again and we can lecture them to our hearts content. p.s. i'm not sorry.




I agree with this. I work in the Job Network and I can tell you Aboriginal's have to do very little to get their payments. They dont comply with rules that others have to, there is always another standard just for Aboriginals, and in general the ones I have dealt with are very rude, have chips on their shoulder etc etc.

I could go on and on about this, BUT I feel they are already duley compensated with their welfare payments. These payments already come out of the pockets of the taxpayers.


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## moxy (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Why even comment on this thread then. Just ignore it. It is in a seperate section to the Stock Market- "General Chat".






Yeh, "general chat".

Maybe these sites would be more appropriate for this type of general chat.

www.councilofconcervativecitzens.com

and not an Australian site but plenty of like minded souls, www.dixienet.com-the league of the South.


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## --B-- (19 December 2007)

dj_420 said:


> I agree with this. I work in the Job Network and I can tell you Aboriginal's have to do very little to get their payments. They dont comply with rules that others have to, there is always another standard just for Aboriginals, and in general the ones I have dealt with are very rude, have chips on their shoulder etc etc.




perfect demonstration of the victimhood mentality we have been encouraging through our own actions for many many years.


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## dj_420 (19 December 2007)

--B-- said:


> perfect demonstration of the victimhood mentality we have been encouraging through our own actions for many many years.




Well lets cut them off from welfare and see what happens. Welfare should be abolished anyway, does not work at all for intended purpose.


----------



## BBand (19 December 2007)

I've worked all my life to give my family a comfortable lifestyle (from a humble beginning), and never received or expected any handouts during my working life (now happily retired)

There were times when I've had to work away from home for extended periods - but I did it, because I was brought up to be responsible for my families welfare. I did what I had to do !!

Maybe our indiginous friends do not have the cultural background for them to fit into our society

They are mostly misfits, and that's a shame

Their leaders should show some leadership and encourage them to be responsible for their lives - giving handouts, in my opinion, is a total waste of money and will probably result in doing more harm than good !!

I wish they would get off their backsides and do something useful with their lives - like all the other contributers to our society

Its a cruel world, always has been and always will be - join the human race


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## --B-- (19 December 2007)

dj_420 said:


> Well lets cut them off from welfare and see what happens. Welfare should be abolished anyway, does not work at all for intended purpose.




i wholeheartedly agree.

welfare has its place for those who genuinely require assistance.

welfare for those who 'need' it simply due to their unwillingness to work and/or contribute to society is useless and does nothing to encourage self respect or responsibility.


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## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

moxy said:


> Yeh, "general chat".
> 
> Maybe these sites would be more appropriate for this type of general chat.
> 
> ...




Sigh, still no opinion from moxy. Chops, your comparison with the Nazi's is a bit outragous mate, as has been said by other members. I think it is also quite offensive to the ancestors of this great land, not to mention current day Aussies.


----------



## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> I think it is also quite offensive to the ancestors of this great land, not to mention current day Aussies.




I'm a current day Aussie. But it is true, unless you are in a group of historians who are apologists, that what I said was actually the case. Even H.G. Wells cites it in War of The Worlds in 1898. So this was hardly a debating point, even in the 19th century. Refusal to accept horrifying mistakes done in the past is perhaps why we are stuck now in this issue.


----------



## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> I'm a current day Aussie. But it is true, unless you are in a group of historians who are apologists, that what I said was actually the case. Even H.G. Wells cites it in War of The Worlds in 1898. So this was hardly a debating point, even in the 19th century. Refusal to accept horrifying mistakes done in the past is perhaps why we are stuck now in this issue.




Haha, mate, the First Fleeters and European Settlers made Australia and made this great land what it is, and comparing them to Hitler and the Nazi's is an insult.


----------



## ithatheekret (19 December 2007)

stormbringer said:


> To quote "ithatheekret"
> 
> "Where did the indigenous persons inclined to abuse young kiddies , pick up the habit ?
> Where do the drugs and sniffing fuels , alcohol , etc., come from to push the isolated into such depravity ?
> ...




Okay then I'm an idiot , just watch who it is they start prosecuting , your talking about the habits of an indigineous woman , fine okay, so she dumped on the side of the road . I don't see your point here . And of course only aboriginals do this  ............

There's a lot going on that the masses are not aware of . I only wish I could report it to you or the press could get the real news to print , but like me they are gagged !

Before you rant back , I can't because I am under the instruction of the crown to remain silent , in the form of a suppression order  .

But of course you would have to understand the sickness , the depraved are infested with first and the follow through in habits that are quite often taken up by victims .

Ask yourself why that happens ?

To many the answer is that it is simpler to label it idiopathic and hope it goes away .

Now they're the idiots .............


----------



## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Haha, mate, the First Fleeters and European Settlers made Australia and made this great land what it is, and comparing them to Hitler and the Nazi's is an insult.




Yeah, you're right. There is no comparison. The Germans failed at wiping out a race of people. Comparing our success and their failure, is just not on.


----------



## --B-- (19 December 2007)

ithatheekret said:


> There's a lot going on that the masses are not aware of . I only wish I could report it to you or the press could get the real news to print , but like me they are gagged !
> 
> Before you rant back , I can't because I am under the instruction of the crown to remain silent , in the form of a suppression order  .




lol. now this is hilarious.

check your phone isnt tapped because you never know then "they" are listening!!!


----------



## IFocus (19 December 2007)

Wow interesting thread

I spent 5 years or more living / working in northern WA getting to see various communities both town based / remote and pondered the Aboriginal issues at length and it tends to get in your face one way or another.

I worked with many part aboriginals who were seen as white by aboriginals and black by whites which was really interesting! 

I came to the conclusion there is simply no answer, no solution, nada, zip, nothing what you see now will always be for generations.

Their situation is not unique, look at many of the indigenous races around the world and the problems invariably are the same.

Alcohol, sugar, drugs lost of culture, identity etc.

I make the note that none of the contributors to this thread have any idea or concept (including myself) as to what that all means or what it would be like if it was us.

Like I said I think there are no answers and no the Tasmanian method was not a solution…… 

Focus


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## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Yeah, you're right. There is no comparison. The Germans failed at wiping out a race of people. Comparing our success and their failure, is just not on.






Well it seems you are hell bent on saying that the British early settlers were worse than the Nazi's.

---
It is estimated that Hitler and the Nazi's murded anywhere from between 15,000,000 - 30,000,000 men, women and children. He murdered the handicapped, the aged, the sick, homosexuals, not to mention Jews and Slavs.

*1,000,000* children (under 18) were murdered by the Nazi's------and you are trying to compare this with British settlers clashing with Aborigines???? You have serious problems.  

This is an extract from a Robert Payne biography of Hitler-


"Hitler told Himmler that it was not enough for the Jews simply to die; they must die in agony. What was the best way to prolong their agony? Himmler turned the problem over to his advisers, who concluded that a slow, agonizing death could be brought about by placing Jewish prisoners in freight cars in which the floors were coated with...quicklime...which produced excruciating burns. The advisers estimated that it would take four days for the prisoners to die, and for that whole time the freight cars could be left standing on some forgotten siding.... Finally it was decided that the freight cars should be used in addition to the extermination camps."


The british settlers were nothing like the Nazi's. 


The Aussie governement took 100,000 children from their home in an attempt to, in their eyes, re-educate them. I accept that this was a awful error by the government, but put it in perspective, *the Nazi's MURDERED 1,000,000 children.

*


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## numbercruncher (19 December 2007)

Thought Id google race and IQ and came up with this ...




> His conclusions are that the East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) have the highest mean IQ at 105. These are followed by the Europeans (IQ 100). Some way below these are the Inuit (Eskimos) (IQ 91), South East Asians (IQ 87), Native American Indians (IQ 87), Pacific Islanders (IQ 85), South Asians and North Africans  (IQ 84). Well below these come the sub-Saharan Africans  (IQ 67) followed by the Australian Aborigines (IQ 62). The least intelligent races are the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert together with the Pygmies of the Congo rain forests (IQ 54).




http://rlynn.co.uk/


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## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Well it seems you are hell bent on saying that the British early settlers were worse than the Nazi's.




Numbers are irrelevant when you are talking genocide. You can only kill how many are there.


----------



## disarray (19 December 2007)

IFocus said:


> Their situation is not unique, look at many of the indigenous races around the world and the problems invariably are the same.
> 
> Alcohol, sugar, drugs lost of culture, identity etc.
> 
> I make the note that none of the contributors to this thread have any idea or concept (including myself) as to what that all means or what it would be like if it was us.




adapt or die. i don't see why we keep trying to change that.


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## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

numbercruncher said:


> Thought Id google race and IQ and came up with this ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Give each of those groups an IQ test based on visual cognition and the results are a whole lot different...


----------



## justjohn (19 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Yeah, you're right. There is no comparison. The Germans failed at wiping out a race of people. Comparing our success and their failure, is just not on.




I suppose the jews were a more intelligent and motivated race of people to be wiped out completely agains far greater odds


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## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Numbers are irrelevant when you are talking genocide. You can only kill how many are there.




You're unbelievable mate, oh well, I give up, It was not genocide, but if you want to believe that it was, go ahead, luxury of democracy and freedom of speech, which of course the British brought with them.


----------



## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> You're unbelievable mate, oh well, I give up, It was not genocide, but if you want to believe that it was, go ahead, luxury of democracy and freedom of speech, which of course the British brought with them.




It is quite clear it was genocide. But this is the problem with nationalism, "my country right or wrong." Too much pride, ala the Japanese, to ever admit to extraordinary wrongdoings. There is never any advancement without self-critique.


----------



## ithatheekret (19 December 2007)

--B-- said:


> lol. now this is hilarious.
> 
> check your phone isnt tapped because you never know then "they" are listening!!!




MOOOOHAAHAAHAA

I'm on their side twit .

Today tonight , now that's scary .


----------



## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> It is quite clear it was genocide. But this is the problem with nationalism, "my country right or wrong." Too much pride, ala the Japanese, to ever admit to extraordinary wrongdoings. There is never any advancement without self-critique.





Most of them died via disease, alcoholism. Smallpox alone killed 50% of the Aboriginal population. That is not genocide, there was no intention to kill Aborigines. The Number of Aborigines shot by settlers is small when compared with disease. Genocide is the intentional murdering of people, ala Hitler and the Nazi's, not the British Settlers.


----------



## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Most of them died via disease, alcoholism. Smallpox alone killed 50% of the Aboriginal population. That is not genocide, there was no intention to kill Aborigines. The Number of Aborigines shot by settlers is small when compared with disease. Genocide is the intentional murdering of people, ala Hitler and the Nazi's, not the British Settlers.




According to one person.

It does not take into account their abandonment and disposal on Flinders Island. Nor does it take into account the policy of legal killing of Aboriginal Tasmanians, with the many hundreds of hunting expeditions out to get them. This wasn't isolated in Tasmania, but the worst of the consequences were.


----------



## Happy (19 December 2007)

> His conclusions are that the East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) have the highest mean IQ at 105. These are followed by the Europeans (IQ 100). Some way below these are the Inuit (Eskimos) (IQ 91), South East Asians (IQ 87), Native American Indians (IQ 87), Pacific Islanders (IQ 85), South Asians and North Africans (IQ 84). Well below these come the sub-Saharan Africans (IQ 67) followed by the Australian Aborigines (IQ 62). The least intelligent races are the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert together with the Pygmies of the Congo rain forests (IQ 54).






When you look at it from another angle, they were quite smart.
They thought up a scheme to get stolen, so they have multi digit payout and we fell for it.

I dread to think what would they come up with have they had 105 or more.


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## stormbringer (19 December 2007)

ithatheekret said:


> Okay then I'm an idiot , just watch who it is they start prosecuting , your talking about the habits of an indigineous woman , fine okay, so she dumped on the side of the road . I don't see your point here . And of course only aboriginals do this  ............
> 
> There's a lot going on that the masses are not aware of . I only wish I could report it to you or the press could get the real news to print , but like me they are gagged !
> 
> ...




Hmmm, sounds like the blame game again, my father assaulted me so now I have an excuse to do the same, pathetic m8. You should read up on the subject before your start down that road. BTW, it was an example on how they have no repect for the rest of society, it wasn't a single example, unfortunately I witnessed this on many occasions. It was not on the side of the road, on the footpath, in a township, population 25k+, is this acceptible in your book???  We have to pick up our dog **** for **** sake! You could really get me started by responding, I have mountains of examples of indig acting in such a way that would make the majority of australia, let alone the world, sick in the guts. I've got no problems with them living their lives the way they want to, as long as they stay in their communities. I don't need to see this, my kids don't need to see this, god forbid my mother ever get's to see this. Simply choice really, act in a way that is respectfull to the majority, and all will be good, otherwise don't even bother. They know what is right and wrong, and I'm talking about the laws of the land here, but while they carry that massive chip on their shoulder, they are allways going to justify their actions. Get over it, we've given you the tools, build yourselves a new life. I'd be the first to step up and give them a hand if they chose to better themselves, I just think it's a lost cause.
I have made several friends over the years that are indig, some that live with society, others on the boundries, so don't think I'm discussing this subject lightly m8, I do give a **** about the indig aussies, and maybe my first post was a little negative, funny how things you see change the way you think, but my point has allways been do they care enough about themselves to get of their arses and move on, whatever it takes, move on.


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## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> According to one person.
> 
> It does not take into account their abandonment and disposal on Flinders Island. Nor does it take into account the policy of legal killing of Aboriginal Tasmanians, with the many hundreds of hunting expeditions out to get them. This wasn't isolated in Tasmania, but the worst of the consequences were.





Actually, it is widely accepted that smallpox was responsible for killing the majority of aboriginals who died in your so called 'genocide'.



According to the Encarta Encyclopeadia-

Claims that smallpox killed *over 50%* of the Aboriginal population.

http://encarta.msn.com/media_701508643/Smallpox_Through_History.html



From an anti-colonialist website-

With the arrival of the Europeans, the Gadigal population was virtually wiped. In 1789 and 1790 a smallpox epidemic swept through the Aboriginal population around Sydney killing literally thousands of people. It is probable that anywhere between *50-90%* of all the Aborigines in the vicinity of Sydney died from this epidemic within the first three years of the European settlement.


Sorry to ruin your british settler bashing, but it wasn't genocide.


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## BBand (19 December 2007)

If we get down to the micro level, we have all probably at some time been unfairly treated, judged etc. did our employers say sorry or give us a couple of dollars to keep us happy?

NO WAY !!

We just had to move on with our lives
Aboriginals should stop wingeing and do the same

They should also learn to say THANK YOU to the hard working Aussies who pay for their welfore benefits - but don't hold your breath


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## ithatheekret (19 December 2007)

stormbringer said:


> Simply choice really, act in a way that is respectfull to the majority, and all will be good, otherwise don't even bother. They know what is right and wrong, and I'm talking about the laws of the land here, but while they carry that massive chip on their shoulder, they are allways going to justify their actions. Get over it, we've given you the tools, build yourselves a new life. I'd be the first to step up and give them a hand if they chose to better themselves, I just think it's a lost cause.
> I have made several friends over the years that are indig, some that live with society, others on the boundries, so don't think I'm discussing this subject lightly m8, I do give a **** about the indig aussies, and maybe my first post was a little negative, funny how things you see change the way you think, but my point has allways been do they care enough about themselves to get of their arses and move on, whatever it takes, move on.




They won't conform I agree , I've seen the housing that looks like a warzone after they are finished with it . Mind you , there was a place in France where the toilet was ripped out by the previous tenant ( Islamic I think ) , never quite understood that one either to be honest . Different yes .......

But previous attempts to get them to move have been useless too , they are digging in , so to speak , right when we want to dig up the ground . They have priority in hiring for nearly every major mining project and are one of the best road blocks than any mining policy government has ever enacted .
The saying you can take the horse to water ........ is not lost on me here .

The unspeakables go back nearly 50 years , the backlog is astounding , but so too is the attrition rate of those that are needed to be spoken too . The answer was to dump it in someones lap in each state , the only real action that can get close to deterence though is a $$ presence $$ .

On a personal note , I believe the only cure for the victims and investigators that have to wade through all of it , is time . 

Exactly as you phrased it , "get over it " , this is their only real positive course . There is a desperate need for people to look forward , but the horse saying comes back to haunt there. It's a tough one .

How do we get through to them at sufficient levels to make a positive change ? 

That will be a Nobel prize winning answer .

Now the monetary compensation would have to fall under the liabilities act , and from my reading of it , it says " get over it " .

It still doesn't excuse the acts perpetrated , the scale is staggering and whats more shocking is that it is deeper than anyone expected . The spread almost systematic . 

Forget the notions of my reactions to date you may have preconcluded on , the real amazement for me is that they now are pulling it all up from eons ago and its is a Government initiated program , after overly liberal allies from way back when . I could easily assume these targets have now lost all theirs friends , but that would call for an assumption , I do know solicitors and barristers will make a fortune .


----------



## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> From an anti-colonialist website-
> 
> With the arrival of the Europeans, the Gadigal population was virtually wiped. In 1789 and 1790 a smallpox epidemic swept through the Aboriginal population around Sydney killing literally thousands of people. It is probable that anywhere between *50-90%* of all the Aborigines in the vicinity of Sydney died from this epidemic within the first three years of the European settlement.
> 
> ...



Ummm... since when has Sydney been in Tasmania?


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## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> Ummm... since when has Sydney been in Tasmania?




That was from a Redfern Aboriginal related source, but honestly, Aboriginal immune systems in Sydney and Tasmania would not have been very different regarding smallpox. But thats okay, we have the Encarta encyclopeadia to back up the stat.


----------



## mark70920 (19 December 2007)

I'm a first generation Australian , my family had nothing to do with what has gone on before they came here. However as an Australian I feel pride in deeds of past Australians like the diggers in past wars , Bradmans super human effort with the bat, Victor Changs mastery of the scapel etc etc. Equally I feel shame in the policy of past Governments that allowed race to be a factor in the removal of children from their families. I have no issue with the Government of Australia apologising on my behalf for these shameful policies and the damge they caused. If we need to give them 4 billion,then just reduce the tax cuts from 31 billion down to 27 billion. I would willing give up my tax cut to sort this.
We need to resolve this out once and for all , so we can all move on.
When you become an Australian you embrace this country as a whole, it history good and bad. The main point here being the vast majority of Australians choose to become Australians or their ancestors did. The Indigeous people were forced to become Australians , they still need help to live in the modern world , which was forced down their throats 200 years ago by the founding Fathers of our nation.
You can say this had nothing to do with me , but you would be wrong ,if your Australian it does have something to do with you and as Australians we have a responsibility to these people.


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## chops_a_must (19 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> That was from a Redfern Aboriginal related source, but honestly, Aboriginal immune systems in Sydney and Tasmania would not have been very different regarding smallpox. But thats okay, we have the Encarta encyclopeadia to back up the stat.




Undoubtedly disease caused a lot of deaths in aboriginals, which was common around Australia. But that still begs the question about the Tasmanians: What killed the rest?

Here is the UN definition of genocide:

"Article 2 of the CPPCG defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Almost right down to a tee what they did in Tasmania. And just about any definition of genocide covers what went on there.

It is easy to see why a lot of aboriginal groups argue that aboriginal genocide was widespread throughout Australia. I wouldn't personally argue that, but under some definitions, they would have quite a valid argument.


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## coolcricket (19 December 2007)

Alright mate, I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Because we will just keep going back and forth. Both of us had some valid points though. Been nice debating. 

Merry Christmas chops. :xmastree


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## Buster (20 December 2007)

ithatheekret said:


> Your talking present , I was referring to past.




As am I.. Do you honestly think they went out and randomly took kids from the community??  Read between the lines mate, and if you have to, apply some of the more recent (reported) events to the years past.. Sadly it all becomes so 'normal' that it rarely rates a mention.. But I can assure you it's been happening for a long, long time..

Regards,

Buster


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## Buster (20 December 2007)

Hey Chops,



chops_a_must said:


> Tasmania.




Errr.. Yeah?? I'm sure most of us here are fully aware of what occurred there.. Are you seriously 'comparing' that to almost any other reported event  whilst maintaining 'one of the only places' and 'Large scale'..   

Like I said.. Sheesh..

Buster


----------



## stormbringer (20 December 2007)

ithatheekret said:


> They won't conform I agree , I've seen the housing that looks like a warzone after they are finished with it . Mind you , there was a place in France where the toilet was ripped out by the previous tenant ( Islamic I think ) , never quite understood that one either to be honest . Different yes .......
> 
> But previous attempts to get them to move have been useless too , they are digging in , so to speak , right when we want to dig up the ground . They have priority in hiring for nearly every major mining project and are one of the best road blocks than any mining policy government has ever enacted .
> The saying you can take the horse to water ........ is not lost on me here .
> ...




A good post m8. Let's hope this story has a good ending for all concerned : )


----------



## chops_a_must (20 December 2007)

Buster said:


> Hey Chops,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think the debate proved not everyone is fully aware...

And yes, I think for the time, it was large scale. It is in the order of the magnitude of the Spanish Inquisition, in a much shorter time frame. Not as large, obviously, as the Spanish conquests, but you could argue that definitive ethnic lines still exist in most areas of conquer, as opposed to none really existing with the Tasmanians.


----------



## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

mark70920 said:


> I'm a first generation Australian , my family had nothing to do with what has gone on before they came here. However as an Australian I feel pride in deeds of past Australians like the diggers in past wars , Bradmans super human effort with the bat, Victor Changs mastery of the scapel etc etc. Equally I feel shame in the policy of past Governments that allowed race to be a factor in the removal of children from their families. I have no issue with the Government of Australia apologising on my behalf for these shameful policies and the damge they caused. If we need to give them 4 billion,then just reduce the tax cuts from 31 billion down to 27 billion. I would willing give up my tax cut to sort this.
> We need to resolve this out once and for all , so we can all move on.
> When you become an Australian you embrace this country as a whole, it history good and bad. The main point here being the vast majority of Australians choose to become Australians or their ancestors did. The Indigeous people were forced to become Australians , they still need help to live in the modern world , which was forced down their throats 200 years ago by the founding Fathers of our nation.
> You can say this had nothing to do with me , but you would be wrong ,if your Australian it does have something to do with you and as Australians we have a responsibility to these people.



mark I'm pretty much in agreement with you ...
incidentally, my roots in Aus go back to the 1700's but irrelevant ..
the quantum of any payment ? - what the courts decide if applicable..
you could almost compare it to Bernie Banton and his fight for justice (imo)

PS I'm talking stolen generation btw (although the pollies apology will no doubt be broader than that) 
I'm guessing the courts wouldn't be interested in prior injustices - although massive and many of em on record.

Here's Keating's Redfern address ...  listen for the cheer when he mentions stolen generation.
  Paul Keating - The Redfern Address - Australian Labor Party


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## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

some background reading on the word sorry ... 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/08/2085733.htm


> Sorry, no apology: Howard
> Prime Minister John Howard has drawn a distinction between saying he is sorry about yesterday's interest rate rise and apologising for it.
> 
> Mr Howard and Treasurer Peter Costello have both said they are sorry for the financial problems it will cause...    etc




http://www.abc.net.au/message/news/stories/ms_news_2118056.htm
'Sorry' more important than compo to Stolen Generations: elder

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s2116012.htm
Govt begins steps towards Stolen Generations' apology

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2111834.htm
The year of the wedge  , Tom Calma
This one summaries some racism in Aus, culminating in the fiasco with Jackie Kelly and her gang. 


> So, as we look back, we see it was not a good year for our globally praised multiculturalism. As National Race Discrimination Commissioner however, I have hope.




There are other articles on ABC about Howard saying " he would have handled the Ab question differently (implying more humanely) if he had his time again" or words to that effect  - but who knows what he meant / he would redefine it the day after he said it anyway.


----------



## >Apocalypto< (20 December 2007)

At the end of the day,

White Europeans have destroyed so many cultures around the world , no amount of money or sorry will EVER right the wrong we have done.....


----------



## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

But we can try 
and incidentally, "stolen generation" was happening as late as 1969 -  Harold Holt (1908 - 1967) was already dead / abducted / living on a desert island with one of his mistresses  for about 2 years etc.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generation


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## Happy (20 December 2007)

> From ABC  20 Dec. 07
> INDIGENOUS BOY'S ASSAULT PROMPTS pr0n CRACKDOWN CALL
> 
> 
> ...






I this bit



> He says pornographic magazines started to come to the community in the mid-1990s.
> "A lot of the kids are now ... are starting to drift away from their responsibility to the cultural values that we have," he said.




we can probably see one little positive, boys moved on.


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## disarray (20 December 2007)

Trade_It said:


> At the end of the day,
> 
> White Europeans have destroyed so many cultures around the world , no amount of money or sorry will EVER right the wrong we have done.....




this is pathetic cultural self-flaggelation and i utterly reject this statement and your guilt ridden attitude.

oh those poor stone age cultures with life expectancies of 35 and institutionalised slavery, how terrible for the europeans to come along and introduce emancipation and democracy and social welfare and modern medicine and technology to these poor native peoples who lived fairytale existences communing with nature and living in peace with all the animals and tribes around them. its bullsh1t apologism and should be buried along with cultural relativism and political correctness.

human history is one of expansion, conquest and displacement, it is by no means limited to white europeans. ALL races, black, white and asian have at one time or another been responsible for atrocities against others as part and parcel of their own expansion. it like in america blacks jump up and down about how hard done by they were for slavery but no mention is made of the fact slavery still exists in africa, the middle east and some parts of asia, that black slaves were sold by black conquerers to arab muslim traders who shipped them across africa to the white customers, and just omit the fact that european civilisation is the first society EVER to abolish slavery and emancipate all the slaves. its all lefty bleeding heart bullsh1t and we don't have to say sorry for anything - in fact the world should be thanking western civilisation for little things like the renaissance, penicillin, air travel, the internet, vastly improved life expectancy and quality of life and multiculturalism (even though it screws the host culture).

the rest of you pussy apologists can bleed your heart all over the floor if it makes you feel better but it doesn't change the fact western civlisation is the best thing that has ever happened to humanity since we jumped out of the trees and started to eat meat. and before you counter with holocausts and world war anecdotes, they have led to the creation of the UN which is the first global meeting of leaders and facilitates the UNHCR and various other treaties and organisations who look after the most weak and vulnerable in the world. yeah those terrible terrible white people. you don't see declarations on human rights coming out of africa or china or saudi arabia do you?


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## --B-- (20 December 2007)

disarray said:


> this is pathetic cultural self-flaggelation and i utterly reject this statement and your guilt ridden attitude.
> 
> oh those poor stone age cultures with life expectancies of 35 and institutionalised slavery, how terrible for the europeans to come along and introduce emancipation and democracy and social welfare and modern medicine and technology to these poor native peoples who lived fairytale existences communing with nature and living in peace with all the animals and tribes around them. its bullsh1t apologism and should be buried along with cultural relativism and political correctness.
> 
> ...




100% agree.


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## nioka (20 December 2007)

--B-- said:


> 100% agree.



Me too


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## numbercruncher (20 December 2007)

nioka said:


> Me too





Me three


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## gavank (20 December 2007)

My ancestors were stolen from Ireland in 1829 and shipped out here as convicts.... I feel great emotional anguish and a feeling of displacement from the green fields of ireland .................which may  impact on my ability to complete my PhD in Chemical engineering.  OK lets settle the matter.... give me (University lecturer in Chemistry) and my son (Structural engineer) and daughter ( doctor), wife (university lecturer in education)  $1 million each,(discount for christmas) ,  and I will forget about the pain and suffering.

Cheers and merry christmas --- Ho Ho Ho
from a "stolen one"


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## Ageo (20 December 2007)

My mum forgot to teach me how to make home made pizzas, do i get a million dollars now?

Its a load of ****


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## IFocus (20 December 2007)

disarray said:


> this is pathetic cultural self-flaggelation and i utterly reject this statement and your guilt ridden attitude.
> 
> oh those poor stone age cultures with life expectancies of 35 and institutionalised slavery, how terrible for the europeans to come along and introduce emancipation and democracy and social welfare and modern medicine and technology to these poor native peoples who lived fairytale existences communing with nature and living in peace with all the animals and tribes around them. its bullsh1t apologism and should be buried along with cultural relativism and political correctness.
> 
> ...





Hi disarray

OK see your point but what’s the answer to the current situation with aboriginals?


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## Julia (20 December 2007)

Leaving aside the question of compensation  for a moment,  I'd like to ask those who feel the Aborigines are in the dysfunctional state they are because of white people what remedy you feel would be appropriate?
Is the payment of multiple millions suddenly going to stop violence and sexual abuse?


Next question:  it's clear that the sexual abuse of children is widespread in the communities.  You are emphatically against the removal of children apparently, so are you in these circumstances condoning the leaving of these abused children (and those with the potential to be abused) with the offending communities rather than removing them (?stealing them) so they may be placed into white foster care?

These are my concerns.  I don't care about the money one way or the other.
If it were to turn a dysfunctional people into human beings who genuinely wanted to uphold whatever valuable traditions may be left of their culture,
protect their women and children, and actually consider that making a contribution to our society in general might be more rewarding than living in the past, then I'm all for it.


----------



## nioka (20 December 2007)

IFocus said:


> what’s the answer to the current situation with aboriginals?



 Get a few more Ernie Dingos, Noel Pearsons and tell them to fix it themselves by joining the rest of us in the 21st century.


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## Rafa (20 December 2007)

numbercruncher said:


> Me three




Me four... 

Western society, (and Christian principles play a major role here) has done a few things wrong, but they have done a hell of a lot of things right...

And whilst there is room for improvement and acknowledgement of mistakes, there is nothing to apologise for. For those who have a blatant disdain for their own culture/religion of their ancestors, you really need to be be wary of what you wish for.... the alternatives ain't as pretty and idealistic as they are made out to be...

The simple life would have to be Australia in the 60's, 70's... now things are slightly less simple (thanks to peak oil), but no where near as difficult as the times when you were a slave to your ruler (and lets face it, most of us on this forum, ain't from any ruling class), had to fight fellow tribemens for food, etc, etc...

heck, we don't even have to capture and kill our animals, or know how to grow own crops, to eat... just need to go work, or surf the web and trade the asx.... how simple is that!!!


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## coolcricket (20 December 2007)

disarray said:


> this is pathetic cultural self-flaggelation and i utterly reject this statement and your guilt ridden attitude.
> 
> oh those poor stone age cultures with life expectancies of 35 and institutionalised slavery, how terrible for the europeans to come along and introduce emancipation and democracy and social welfare and modern medicine and technology to these poor native peoples who lived fairytale existences communing with nature and living in peace with all the animals and tribes around them. its bullsh1t apologism and should be buried along with cultural relativism and political correctness.
> 
> ...


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## coolcricket (20 December 2007)

Okay then, 5th, lol.


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## Rafa (20 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Okay then, 5th, lol.


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## IFocus (20 December 2007)

nioka said:


> Get a few more Ernie Dingos, Noel Pearsons and tell them to fix it themselves by joining the rest of us in the 21st century.




Nioka that would be great but in my own experience when it comes to the crunch they are seen as whites just like us unfortunately I don’t think any one knows how to achieve your outcome where you take an indigenous culture and integrate it I think its impossible and money wont help

Focus


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## disarray (20 December 2007)

IFocus said:


> OK see your point but what’s the answer to the current situation with aboriginals?




obviously no quick fix but it is currently mired in apologism, hand wringing, political correctness and other lefty socialist ideals which hamstring attempts to resolve the issue. if i were king of the world i would -

1. admit aborigines are different. maths, english and science isn't their thing, they are intellectually less developed than whites and asians in these areas which instantly puts them at a disadvantage in the education system. i think everyone agrees education is the most important avenue out for any people stuck in a rut.

2. testing indicates aborigines have amazing visual acuity, perception and visual based memory, so they need tailored education which takes advantage of these strengths and leads into more relevant career paths. land management, cultural studies of art, language and dance, native biology, sports and subjects that they feel are relevant to them should be taught as primary subjects.

3. remote communities go to hell because there is nothing to do, if the youth are engaged in learning their culture, the land and animals, playing sport etc. it re-establishes a link to the land which is central to their traditional lifestyle and offers an alternative to getting high on petrol and raping the nearest female.

4. maintain the intervention for as long as necessary to create stable communities where youth can learn these things without older people screwing everything up. get a generation or 2 through a stable, relevant education system and they can begin to maintain their own communities.

obviously its fraught with problems and issues, but at the crux of it all is finally putting to bed this ridiculous notion that all people are equal. we aren't all equal, we have different strengths and weaknesses, but as the dominant culture we are doing ourselves and others a great disservice by sticking absolutely everyone into the box that was tailored for us.

i should point out that tailored policy is for aborigines only so every minority group doesn't come along and start moaning about how they want special treatment. i feel we should go that extra mile to give the aborigines a hand up, but as for everyone else, accept the system (and change it within the reasonable boundaries) or piss off.

also sorry for coming on harsh trade_it, i do respect your opinion and your advice on some of the threads you have posted on, it has been much appreciated


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## numbercruncher (20 December 2007)

IFocus said:


> Nioka that would be great but in my own experience when it comes to the crunch they are seen as whites just like us unfortunately I don’t think any one knows how to achieve your outcome where you take an indigenous culture and integrate it I think its impossible and money wont help
> 
> Focus





Exactly, Just look at how that muppet Mundine has chastised that Aussie legend Freeman.


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## chops_a_must (20 December 2007)

Julia said:


> Leaving aside the question of compensation  for a moment,  I'd like to ask those who feel the Aborigines are in the dysfunctional state they are because of white people what remedy you feel would be appropriate?
> Is the payment of multiple millions suddenly going to stop violence and sexual abuse?




Not sure if this is directed at someone like me, but I'll answer it anyway.

I think they are only in the state they are in, partly because of whites. Obviously it varies from place to place, but I'd say areas like the WA wheatbelt are beyond repair because of the extensive reserve and mission system that was in place until the 70s. So yeah, anyone here voting before that time really is responsible for that sort of mistreatment. The destruction of the link between people and land inevitably leads to a position where there is no coming back.

And no, I think with the way aboriginal culture works, any sort of monetary payment will lead to even more massive problems IMO. You only have to look at what has happened to Jeff Farmer and Ashley Sampi here to see what goes on when money is involved.




Julia said:


> Next question:  it's clear that the sexual abuse of children is widespread in the communities.  You are emphatically against the removal of children apparently, so are you in these circumstances condoning the leaving of these abused children (and those with the potential to be abused) with the offending communities rather than removing them (?stealing them) so they may be placed into white foster care?



I'm not against removal of any children with justified cause.



Julia said:


> These are my concerns.  I don't care about the money one way or the other.
> If it were to turn a dysfunctional people into human beings who genuinely wanted to uphold whatever valuable traditions may be left of their culture,
> protect their women and children, and actually consider that making a contribution to our society in general might be more rewarding than living in the past, then I'm all for it.



It's not just about making a contribution to society as a whole, they need to understand it's about making a contribution to their _own_ society. I have a couple of farmers as clients who come and see me every so often. And they, and their neighbours, through generation of care, painstaking recording and documentation, know the local dialect very well. But, the locals no longer know it, don't speak it correctly, adopt the English pronunciation and refuse to relearn the actual proper way of speaking in their actual tongue. It's this sort of rubbish that needs to change, but if they have no real elders, it aint going to happen.

But there are areas in the Kimberley that I know of that have had incredible results with maintaining culture, and their links to the land. The problem is, finding elders of communities that are prepared to help in real ways. Unfortunately, they appear to be few and far between.



disarray said:


> if i were king of the world i would -
> 
> 1. admit aborigines are different. maths, english and science isn't their thing, they are intellectually less developed than whites and asians in these areas which instantly puts them at a disadvantage in the education system. i think everyone agrees education is the most important avenue out for any people stuck in a rut.
> 
> ...



Great points. You try bringing up aboriginal crime statistics in a sociology tute and see how long you last. It's crazy. Recognition of facts on all sides is a first step.

Clontarf would probably be a prime example of a program based on the points above. Keep them in school, being educated, under the guise and lure of something else. In 10-15 years time, these kids will see the enormous benefits. You just have to get a foothold. I've spoken about learning their culture briefly in the above. It's difficult to get people to learn something they don't want to.


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## ithatheekret (20 December 2007)

Rafa said:


> Me four...
> 
> Western society, (and Christian principles play a major role here) has done a few things wrong, but they have done a hell of a lot of things right...
> 
> ...




They provide a resource that is needed in our landscape , trackers , a dying breed . Watched one at work once , I was impressed and that's an understatement , because we were in an area where it was solid rock and old river pebbles , buggared if I know how he did it , but he was turning up pebbles and finding sweat droppings and just pointed and we went . And he found us a water hole the size of a kitchen basin , coming down from a rock face in trickles . Have you ever watched an indig stockman on a quarter horse ?
You'd swear they were born in the saddle .

But when it get's right down to it , they don't want to be assimulated into our culture , to be honest I have had a few blaring  remarks that go well beyond racisim , but it was them . Per capita I would admit that , that their behaviour has them at the high end compared to what is thrown at western culture and those within it that cop the flak .

I certainly hope I wasn't being labelled an apologist as per disarays post , whilst I agree with points clearly stated , there is an alternate retort there.

I've been dragged back , reluctantly and was quite happy in semi-retirement , but I have a motto on a wooden plaque , " all it takes for evil to prevail , is for a few good men to do nothing  " . 

I'm a capitalist , I know , but I would like everyone to have the good life I have , but I don't see Utopia on the horizon .
Look at the US military , they're in Iraq , tearing up the place to find nothing .
After the scale of the search conducted for WMDs , one would think they would have at least found the Garden of Eden . 

That would have made the oil sham that it was a more desirable  achievement and it could have given the world hope back.


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## nioka (20 December 2007)

Links to the land is an overworked excuse. How many white Australians with many generations of "links to the land" have had to give up that link in the last 40 years. Drought has forced off many, through debt. A lot because of progress overtaking them. eg The Snowy mountain graziers. Urban encroachment. The get bigger or get out attitude towards farming. Coal mining in the Hunter.
 A lot in my early days lost their land through a succession of death duties. 
 I lost a lot of the land I roamed around as a kid to National parks and Aboriginal land right claims as well as urban development.
 Can I have some of that compensation too.
 P.S. I left some grafitti, I mean rock art, behind too. And a midden of my left over oyster shells.


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## macca (20 December 2007)

How do we solve it ?

I have had a friend for 40 years, he is on the local land council.

His view is that he does not want his grandchildren and their kids to live like cavemen.

"We need to be part of todays world, it is no good living in the past, whitefellas move on all the time, we have to do that as well "

This land council is teaching the younger aborigines outdoor jobs mainly but also hospitality (mainly female), they seem to avoid the accountancy, clerical type thing but are having success.

They have fully qualified tradesmen coming from their local land council set up, brickies, plumbers, licensed truckies, earth moving equipment drivers, they have one fully licensed builder as the shining light, he is the son of my friend.

I think they are on the right path 

They would like to do more but, unfortunately, part of the council don't agree and believe they should just get more money and it all may end, very sad IMO.


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## numbercruncher (20 December 2007)

macca said:


> How do we solve it ?





To start with they can stop calling me Whitefella. I know thats one of the more polite terms they use for non-Indigenous Australians, but treating others how you expect to be treated yourself is always a good starting point.


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## --B-- (20 December 2007)

but theyre allowed because theyre the minority.

/sarcasm


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## chops_a_must (20 December 2007)

nioka said:


> Links to the land is an overworked excuse. How many white Australians with many generations of "links to the land" have had to give up that link in the last 40 years. Drought has forced off many, through debt. A lot because of progress overtaking them. eg The Snowy mountain graziers. Urban encroachment. The get bigger or get out attitude towards farming. Coal mining in the Hunter.
> A lot in my early days lost their land through a succession of death duties.
> I lost a lot of the land I roamed around as a kid to National parks and Aboriginal land right claims as well as urban development.
> Can I have some of that compensation too.
> P.S. I left some grafitti, I mean rock art, behind too. And a midden of my left over oyster shells.




And you still have farmers who haven't had a crop in nearly 10 years "living off the land". It doesn't matter what group of people it is, some humans are very reluctant to move from where they have grown up/ lived all of their lives. You have people in Michigan living there, even though it is totally dead. Same goes with South Australia and Tasmania. Living in a place that has nothing going for it, seems to appeal to humans on the whole, moreso than taking a chance and moving somewhere else. It's just not that easy or simple if all of your friends, family and support are in that one place.


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## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

can someone remind me please
a) when did the Abs get the vote, and
b) did any fight in our Army before that date. ?


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## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> can someone remind me please
> a) when did the Abs get the vote, and
> b) did any fight in our Army before that date. ?




http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/barani/themes/theme3.htm

voting .... try 1962 (except in State elections) 


> ..when compulsory voting was introduced in NSW in 1929, Aboriginal people were still excluded from voting under the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918. *In 1962, the Federal Government gave Aborigines the optional right to vote. State laws, however, still classified "natives" as "wards of the state" and as such they were denied the right to vote in State elections*.




Census ( even being counted as Australians) ..  try 1967


> When the six Australian colonies became a Federation in 1901, white Australia believed that the Aborigines were a dying race and the Constitution made only two references to them. Section 127 excluded Aborigines from the census (although heads of cattle were counted) and Section 51 (Part 26) gave power over Aborigines to the States rather than to the Federal Government. *This was the situation until the referendum of 1967 when an overwhelming majority of Australians voted to include Aborigines in the census of their own country*




war and stolen generation - 
some children were taken from mothers whilst the fathers were overseas serving in the armed forces 



> The NSW Aborigines Welfare Board controlled Aboriginal lives until the 1960s, pursuing policies that are now acknowledged as having contributed to the destruction of Aboriginal families and society by separating children from their parents. These children became known as ‘the stolen generations’ and are still searching for their families. They now number between 15,000 and 20,000 in NSW alone. During the First World War, some four to five hundred Aboriginal people enlisted in the armed forces. *During this time, the State government continued to remove Aboriginal children from their families, including youngsters whose fathers were serving overseas*.




lovely isn't it..
really something to be proud of..

next questions..
c) how would any of you blokes / ladies like it if your kids were taken forcibly from you?
d) would you feel that you were entitled to an apology at least?



> PS This extract from the Australian Constitution 1900 shows Section 127 before it was repealed in 1967 :-


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## BBand (20 December 2007)

If we gave them an apology and the money -----------

Then what ? (can be expected in the future)


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## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

BBand said:


> If we gave them an apology and the money -----------
> 
> Then what ? (can be expected in the future)




Justice might have been done - at least in part.
The Abs and those Aussies with a conscience (and/or empathy) might move on with some healing accomplished...

of course the rednecks will be bleating, but hopefully they are in the minority.


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## justjohn (20 December 2007)

Why don't we have a national I'm sorry day ,where we open our windows and shout as loud as we can ''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY:fu::cussing:


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## coolcricket (20 December 2007)

justjohn said:


> Why don't we have a national I'm sorry day ,where we open our windows and shout as loud as we can ''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY:fu::cussing:





I like it, I would be up for that. 
They would still want money to buy alcohol though.


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## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

justjohn said:


> Why don't we have a national I'm sorry day ,where we open our windows and shout as loud as we can ''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY:fu::cussing:




but jj, I notice you decline to answer the questions c) and d) 
 how would you feel if your kids were taken from you?

  Paul Keating - The Redfern Address - Australian Labor Party


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## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

And no doubt you'd happily yell at this blokes headstone ....



> ''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY



that your kid was stolen from you whilst you were on active service saving the likes of jj


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## disarray (20 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> c) how would any of you blokes / la...ow we should steal another bloody generation.


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## justjohn (20 December 2007)

20/20 my mother was made a ward of the state some 55years ago ,taken from her mother ,father(alcoholic) and 3 siblings never to be seen again .Had a chance to reunite with 1 brother through the Salvation Army but declined ,she had no choice as and 8year old ripped from her family but ajusted to life .Never grew up with a huge chip on her shoulder declaring she has been underprivlidged and the world owes her ,she just got off her fat arse (sorry mum)and worked 40years as a RN and still does to this day at the ripe old age of 63


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## IFocus (20 December 2007)

disarray said:


> obviously no quick fix but it is currently mired in apologism, hand wringing, political correctness and other lefty socialist ideals which hamstring attempts to resolve the issue. if i were king of the world i would -
> 
> 1. admit aborigines are different. maths, english and science isn't their thing, they are intellectually less developed than whites and asians in these areas which instantly puts them at a disadvantage in the education system. i think everyone agrees education is the most important avenue out for any people stuck in a rut.
> 
> ...




disarray you raised some good points (with some edge) thanks for taking the time


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## austek (20 December 2007)

Moving the children to safer more financially independant homes seemed at the time a responsible quick fix, but ignores the 'nomadic" nature of the aboriginal race and the closeness of family.  They will eventually be drawn back to their roots.

My thoughts are they need to determine among themselves what they want
a non financial non producing carefree life or a productive working life like the majority of Australians.

White Australians cannot or should not decide this for them.

The whole argument seems to revove around "What they want" how we can help them and more importantly how they can help themselves.


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## nioka (20 December 2007)

austek said:


> The whole argument seems to revove around "What they want" how we can help them and more importantly how they can help themselves.




The first thing they seem to want is a land cruiser then a tinnie and outboard motor, both of these use a considerable amount of fuel. Then a rifle for traditional hunting. Without thinking of grog of course. 
 If they expect these modern things then they must accept our culture of working for a living.


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## austek (20 December 2007)

I met a caravan park owner from mission beach in 1978, that told me Goff Whitlam gave the aborigines a tinny each up that way and after a few weeks his beachfront was littered with 15 abandoned tinnies, complete with life jackets and sparkling new outboard motors.....ran out of fuel


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## Happy (20 December 2007)

nioka said:


> The first thing they seem to want is a land cruiser then a tinnie and outboard motor, both of these use a considerable amount of fuel. Then a rifle for traditional hunting. Without thinking of grog of course.
> If they expect these modern things then they must accept our culture of working for a living.




Not to mention high quality medical care, high quality education facilities all in the outback, so they can continue their ancestor's culture.

??


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## justjohn (20 December 2007)

austek said:


> I met a caravan park owner from mission beach in 1978, that told me Goff Whitlam gave the aborigines a tinny each up that way and after a few weeks his beachfront was littered with 15 abandoned tinnies, complete with life jackets and sparkling new outboard motors.....ran out of fuel




Someone should have held there hand and explained the fuel was for the outboard motors and not for recreational use


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## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

justjohn said:


> 20/20 my mother was made a ward of the state some 55years ago ,taken from her mother ,father(alcoholic) and 3 siblings never to be seen again .Had a chance to reunite with 1 brother through the Salvation Army but declined ,she had no choice as and 8year old ripped from her family but ajusted to life .Never grew up with a huge chip on her shoulder declaring she has been underprivlidged and the world owes her, she just got off her fat arse (sorry mum)and worked 40years as a RN and still does to this day at the ripe old age of 63



OK  jj - sorry to hear your mum had a hard time - but her circumstances are different to (most, certainly many of) the stolen generation, agreed?

Had she ended up in a state home/jail (like the one in Hay?) she might be entitled to have a serious chip on her shoulder.   And some of the places the Abs ended up in were little better than Hay. 

I listened to an hour or two of a radio broadcast featuring the past inmates of Hay  (slightly off the topic except that it shows you how "angelic" the state run institutions were around the 60s and 70s). - and the church for that matter.  Rape was commonplace etc.  
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1862767.htm


> Former wards of state relive Hay experiences
> *Some of the Hay girls are taking legal action against the State Government over their treatment as wards of the state, but another Terry Welch, says she has moved on.*..........
> 
> "Although the policies and practices of the past may no longer exist, their impact can still live on. Thankfully social welfare practices have evolved. It's up to departments like ours to ensure that we continue to learn from the past," he said.
> ...




If these ladies are entitled to compensation, then they should get it, agreed?. 

Likewise if the Abs are entitled to compensation, they should get it yes?

To ACTIVELY argue against that (instead of letting justice and the recent election of a govt who wants to set the matter straight) is.... best comparison I can come up with would be a shareholder of JamesHardie voting against paying Bernie Banton any compensation.  

Why not 
a) let justice take its course, 
b) be thankful you weren't born Ab, now or (worse) back then; and 
c) don't be mean-spirited about it.  

And btw, (since I notice you say "don't blame me I voted Liberal",  had Libs got in , then within a few months Costello would have taken the reins, and as you probably know, he ALSO marched on the original 2000 "Sorry Day". 

PS My guess is that half of you blokes would also object to any compensation for the Hay girls . 

PS Reconcilitaion ... its a nice word.  Sorry will help most if not all of those affected .    

PS If you can't say "sorry" and mean it, then better not to say anything , eg your proposed alternative.  .....
''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY  :fu: 

:bad:


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## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

disarray said:


> hey 2020. no one is belittling aborigines contribution to the war, nor their right to be full and equal citizens of our society, but applying modern attitutes to past policies is pointless.
> 
> re the stolen generation - AT THAT TIME the government thought aborigines were going to die out, they saw the dire conditions that aborigines lived in in many places so they did what they thought best AT THAT TIME and took a lot of kids and moved them to what they thought was a better place. i would do this to many aboriginal kids now, and the stolen generation happened literally a lifetime ago.
> 
> now if the evil whitefella came and snatched kids from loving homes with good conditions ............. then yeah, we should apologise. but they didn't, they honestly thought they were doing the right thing. if you want to attack something like this you have to look at the intent.




yet again you skirt my question disarray...  

some of these kids were taken forcibly 
agaist  the wishes of them, their loving parents, 
and indeed ended up in totally unsavoury circumstances.  

EVEN if there was good intent - it wasn't followed through, and the OUTCOME was often unsatisfactory.   (OR do you know better that the Abs that went through this experience and are now vocalising their stories.) ?

I have already mentioned evidence of the practice occurring whilst the fathers were on active duty ....   any comment?

And let's say with a smidgeon of research, I could find stories of stolen generation kids that don't fit your fairy-tale-plot of   " Cinderella found in the dust, whisked away to live with a royal family in time to marry the handsome prince"...

let's suppose I find ONE example when this didn't happen ... 

and let's suppose that comes as news to you ( since you constantly ignore the possibility) 

then I would feel totally entitled to call you blokes who 
a) start a thread like this - with this title, and  
b) happily plug your theme that IRRESPECTIVE of whether they are entitled to compensation, YOU, in your magnanimous white supreme style, don't consider that they should get anything.  

.... an unsympathetic and backward section of the white community.  


The society that I champion wants justice for ALL.


----------



## macca (20 December 2007)

I guess the biggest problem is that no one really knows what reconciliation actually entails.

Every group or even individual will want something different.

What is now called sit down money was and is more than enough to live a good life on if you spend it wisely.

They don't really have any of what we consider normal expenses, no rent, no travelling to work, if they wish to lead a traditional lifestyle they don't even need food out west, as it is still available to them in most places.

An example would be in Arnhem land, want meat, jump in the Toyota, barrel through the bush till you see a wallaby / roo jump out and shoot it, easy, fresh meat.

Yet, when we are shown their chosen place of abode, we are expected to feel sorry for them. They WANT and CHOOSE to live there like that, we are applying our standards to them (again).

We have to stop judging them by our standards and accept that some of them do not want to join our world.


----------



## The Boss Hogg (20 December 2007)

execute the powers in charge at the time... this will send a strong enough message!!


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## 2020hindsight (20 December 2007)

The Boss Hogg said:


> execute the powers in charge at the time... this will send a strong enough message!!




sheesh the Pope better cancel his trip to Aus then


----------



## Julia (20 December 2007)

Julia said:


> Leaving aside the question of compensation  for a moment,  I'd like to ask those who feel the Aborigines are in the dysfunctional state they are because of white people what remedy you feel would be appropriate?
> Is the payment of multiple millions suddenly going to stop violence and sexual abuse?
> 
> 
> ...




Chops, thank you for responding to my above earlier post.  Rational answer.

2020:  could you consider a response to this please?  You clearly think compensation should be paid:  How do you think this will make the whole process of reconciliation better, i.e. how should it happen, who would actually get what money, how would it be determined, and how would we as taxpayers feel confident that it's not going to be spent on the aforementioned grog, 4 wheel drives, tinnies etc etc?
How would this monetary compensation ameliorate their plight in any direction?
Would there be conditions attached to how the funds were to be spent?

What would be your answer to "stealing" some of the current generation of children rather than leave then vulnerable to further sexual violence within their own communities?

As Disarray and others have said, the 'stolen generation' were not removed out of any sense of malevolence but in the genuine belief that their chances of a better life would be increased by so doing.  Imo we are doing the current generation of abused children a dreadful disservice by leaving them in the hands of abusers.

Whilst I respect your point of view, you do tend to be big on the emotive stuff and very light on the practicalities and outcomes.


----------



## coolcricket (20 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> sheesh the Pope better cancel his trip to Aus then





That would be very nice indeed, can you believe they are using Randwick for his get together. The Racing industry has already suffered enough without a whole lot of horny christians walking all over the track. 

Excuse my little rant.....carry on.


----------



## Julia (20 December 2007)

numbercruncher said:


> To start with they can stop calling me Whitefella. I know thats one of the more polite terms they use for non-Indigenous Australians, but treating others how you expect to be treated yourself is always a good starting point.



Agree absolutely.  I hate this expression.  I have never heard it said without a note of sarcasm.


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## Freeballinginawetsuit (21 December 2007)

*freeballinginawetsuit*



Julia said:


> Agree absolutely. I hate this expression. I have never heard it said without a note of sarcasm.




I've got no qualms being called 'whitefella' by an aboriginal!. Also in full support of a workable solution that betters the health/welfare of the indigenous population (especially the kids)........ at the 'whitefella's' expense.


----------



## coolcricket (21 December 2007)

Hmm, why can't we call them Blackfella's??


----------



## numbercruncher (21 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Hmm, why can't we call them Blackfella's??





Because that would make you a racist whitefella that just isnt sorry enough.


----------



## ithatheekret (21 December 2007)

Hey yeah ....... they all use to call me whitey , admittedly I couldn't remember half the names and referred to everyone as mate or mrs./mame and I took no offence , been called much worse than that 

But , there's a point in this debate . One country , one law and all that .


----------



## coolcricket (21 December 2007)

numbercruncher said:


> Because that would make you a racist whitefella that just isnt sorry enough.




Ah dear, oh well, it really doesn't bother me when someone calls me white. But its the opposite with Blacks. They get so offensive and call racism, in Australia and other politically correct countries anyway.

I lived in Fiji for 7 years, there are no problems there, call each other whites, blacks, nobody takes offence.


----------



## So_Cynical (21 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Ah dear, oh well, it really doesn't bother me when someone calls me white. But its the opposite with Blacks. They get so offensive and call racism, in Australia and other politically correct countries anyway.
> 
> I lived in Fiji for 7 years, there are no problems there, call each other whites, blacks, nobody takes offence.




Africans are the same...white people are white and blacks are black.

Its a non issue there, and makes the whole black and white thing so much easyer...


----------



## gimme some (21 December 2007)

This arguement that the people removing these children from thier families really believed they were doing the right thing, just doesn't wash.
Do you think Adolf Hitler would have done what he did if he didn't truly believe it was the right thing to do.


----------



## Freeballinginawetsuit (21 December 2007)

coolcricket said:


> Ah dear, oh well, it really doesn't bother me when someone calls me white. But its the opposite with Blacks. They get so offensive and call racism, in Australia and other politically correct countries anyway.
> .




Thats just dribble, you could always pick a minority whinge like that out of any ethnic group. 

An Aboriginal being called a Blackfella is probably one of the mildest hardships they have had to deal with in there lives.

I'd say a fair lump of youre politically correct chums would lose the fella and coin up cxxx!.


----------



## Julia (21 December 2007)

gimme some said:


> This arguement that the people removing these children from thier families really believed they were doing the right thing, just doesn't wash.
> Do you think Adolf Hitler would have done what he did if he didn't truly believe it was the right thing to do.




Not an appropriate comparison.

Hitler exterminated Jews because he regarded them as essentially vermin.
He wasn't trying to improve their outcomes!


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 December 2007)

Julia said:


> 2020:  could you consider a response to this please?  You clearly think compensation should be paid:  How do you think this will make the whole process of reconciliation better, i.e. how should it happen, who would actually get what money, how would it be determined, and how would we as taxpayers feel confident that it's not going to be spent on the aforementioned grog, 4 wheel drives, tinnies etc etc?
> How would this monetary compensation ameliorate their plight in any direction?
> Would there be conditions attached to how the funds were to be spent?
> 
> ...




Julia
The point of the sorry march was simply that - to START the healing process.

I would simply say that we are discussing the need to say "sorry".
I think it is something that must be done.
I think you will find that the Abs think it is something that must be done.
I think you will find several bureaucrats trying to work out the wording as we speak.


I think you are missing the point. 

As for the second third etc steps.  I have said numerous times that these people need a chance for gainful employment.   Whether this means that factories are set up nearby to them where no tax is applicable ( as per the red indians in USA) etc etc - options tobe discussed elsewhere.

But if you are saying that to say sorry is a hollow and /or meaningless emotional issue - I would counter that the point of all this is going over your head. 

Read some of the articles where abs insisit on the word sorry as an essential first step.  Listen to the Redfern address.    You might start to understand.


----------



## hangseng (21 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> you disappoint me hangseng
> 
> let's put it this way ..
> 
> ...




Unfortunately it is the Aboriginal representatives that have disappointed. They consistently stated this had nothing to do with compensation. What are they doing now.

If the court of law applied this consistently and also paid out for the convicts (some their biggest crime stealing a loaf of bread to  feed a family) and to the many children removed from families in Britain and Ireland post war and brought here then some form of parity may silence me.

I often wonder how the "stolen generation" people would have turned out were they not "stolen". If you honestly believe those poor children are better off living in the hunger and squaller they do with violent, sexually abusing drunken parents then I would be amased. If you have seen this then go into the Pilbara, Kalgoorlie and suburbs of Lockridge you will be disgusted with the way these people treat their own children.

I say do it again as some of them clearly do not give a damn for these poor kids.

Note I am tarring all with the same brush, as I said I have good long term Noogyar friends. They to are pissed off with the way these children are treated by their own.

But let's just pay out many more millions to a select group who have done nothing with the many millions they have already squandered publicly. Give these children support by all means but don't give anymore to people who just go and buy more booze and destroy their own families and culture.


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## Julia (21 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Julia
> The point of the sorry march was simply that - to START the healing process.
> 
> I would simply say that we are discussing the need to say "sorry".
> ...



My post didn't refer to saying sorry.   I haven't objected to that.
Nothing you have said here addresses my questions about compensation payments or sexual violence.


----------



## Happy (21 December 2007)

> From ABC 21 Dec. 07
> GOVT BACKS INDIGENOUS WELFARE QUARANTINE
> 
> The Federal Government has thrown its support behind a plan to quarantine the welfare payments of families in some Queensland Indigenous communities.
> ...




Not a word about looking for employment.

Suppose savings made on not smashed homes and reduced number of police deployment to violent incidents will be enough saving for taxpayers.


This alone shows how sorry we are already.


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 December 2007)

Julia said:


> My post didn't refer to saying sorry.   I haven't objected to that.
> Nothing you have said here addresses my questions about compensation payments or sexual violence.





julia thought for the day ...
suppose some kids were perfectly happy UNTIL they were stolen - 
 and only THEN did the abuse start?


----------



## justjohn (21 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> julia thought for the day ...
> suppose some kids were perfectly happy UNTIL they were stolen -
> and only THEN did the abuse start?




C'mon 20/20 we've had a good day today why did you have to dig this one up again. For christ sake I'm sorry:


----------



## Julia (21 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> julia thought for the day ...
> suppose some kids were perfectly happy UNTIL they were stolen -
> and only THEN did the abuse start?



OK I give up.
Clearly you are unable to respond to my questions.


----------



## nioka (21 December 2007)

justjohn said:


> C'mon 20/20 we've had a good day today why did you have to dig this one up again. For christ sake I'm sorry:



Me too. Sorry, sorry, sorry. End of the matter.


P.S. All claims for compensation to:

                                Santa
                                 C/- ??????
                                  Greenland (or Alaska or somewhere like that)


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## 2020hindsight (21 December 2007)

Julia and others ....
Since you (and disarray and others) always assume (obviously without the slightest hint of research) that things improved for these kids - here are some stats I found  in a very cursory search ...



> Children's experiences following their removal contributed to the effects of the removal upon them at the time and in later life. In this chapter we briefly survey the evidence to the Inquiry concerning those experiences which have had the most significant impacts on well-being and development.
> 
> Placement stability
> As the following table shows, a high proportion of children (based on the experiences of Inquiry witnesses) experienced multiple placements following their removal.
> ...





> One-quarter of the Inquiry witnesses spent the entire period from removal to release in a single children's home while only 14% spent that entire period with a single non-Indigenous family, whether fostered, adopted or both. Many children moved among institutions (27%) or from an institution(s) into a foster placement(s) or vice versa (27%).



Children's stories.... (this could go on for many many posts - I'll cover institutions in a second post) 



> So I went through foster homes, and I never stayed in one any longer than two months ... Then you'd be moved onto the next place and it went on and on and on. That's one of the main reasons I didn't finish primary school.
> Confidential evidence 316, Tasmania.





> The Inquiry was advised by the Australian Association of Infant Mental Health,  " While separation and loss may become commonplace for the child who experiences several foster placements, the multiplicity of separations does not make them any easier (submission 699 page 4). "



Totality of separation
.......   Many children were told they were unwanted, rejected or that their parents were dead.


> I remember this woman saying to me, `Your mother's dead, you've got no mother now. That's why you're here with us'. Then about two years after that my mother and my mother's sister all came to The Bungalow but they weren't allowed to visit us because they were black. They had to sneak around onto the hills. Each mother was picking out which they think was their children. And this other girl said, `Your mother up there'. And because they told me that she was dead, I said, `No, that's not my mother. I haven't got a black mother'.
> Confidential evidence 544, Northern Territory: woman removed to The Bungalow, Alice Springs, at 5 years in the 1930s; later spent time at Croker Island Mission.





> I was trying to come to grips with and believe the stories they were telling me about me being an orphan, about me having no family. In other words telling me just get up on your own two feet, no matter what your size ... and just face this big world ... and in other words you don't belong to anybody and nobody belongs to you so sink or swim. And they probably didn't believe I would swim.
> Confidential evidence 421, Western Australia..




Children were given the very strong impression their parents were worthless.


> *When I first met my mother - when I was 14 - she wasn't what they said she was. They made her sound like she was stupid, you know, they made her sound so bad. And when I saw her she was so beautiful. Mum said, `My baby's been crying' and she walked into the room and she stood there and I walked into my - I walked into my mother and we hugged and this hot, hot rush just from the tip of my toes up to my head filled every part of my body - so hot. That was my first feeling of love and it only could come from my mum. I was so happy and that was the last time I got to see her. When my mum passed away I went to her funeral, which is stupid because I'm allowed to go see her at her funeral but I couldn't have that when she requested me. They wouldn't let me have her.*
> Confidential evidence 139, Victoria: removed 1967; witness's mother died two years after their first and only meeting.


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 December 2007)

Julia
If you're ever in WA go to the museum 


> ........  An Aboriginal witness to the Inquiry in Perth who taught in the school at Moore River during the 1950s gave evidence that inmates were flogged *with a cat-o'-nine-tails (now held in the WA Museum)* (confidential evidence 681).




Here are some notes about the saintly white-run institutions
...
next post will cover some for the sexual abuse. 


> *I got told my Aboriginality when I got whipped and they'd say, `You Abo, you ******'. That was the only time I got told my Aboriginality.
> Confidential evidence 139, Victoria: removed 1967.*




*Institutional conditions
The living conditions in children's institutions were often very harsh.*



> And for them to say she [mother] neglected us! I was neglected when I was in this government joint down here. I didn't end up 15 days in a hospital bed [with bronchitis] when I was with me mum and dad.
> Confidential evidence 163, Victoria: woman removed at 9 years in the 1950s.



The physical infrastructure of missions, government institutions and children's homes was often very poor and resources were insufficient to improve them or to keep the children adequately clothed, fed and sheltered. WA's Chief Protector, A O Neville, later described the conditions at the Moore River Settlement in the 1920s (Neville had no control over the Settlement from 1920 until 1926, his jurisdiction being limited to the State's north during that period).




> Moore River Settlement had rapidly declined under a brutal indifference. Here `economy' had taken the form of ignoring maintenance and any improvement of buildings, reducing to a minimum the diet of `inmates' and doing away with the use of cutlery - the children in the compounds being forced to eat with their hands. The salaries of attendant and teachers had been reduced and anything that was not essential to the rudimentary education available was removed. Even toys, such as plasticine, were removed from the classroom. Unhappiness and the desperate anxiety to locate and rejoin family members led to a sharp increase in absconders and runaways. Punishment was harsh and arbitrary and the `inmates' feared the Police trackers who patrolled the settlement and hunted down escapees (quoted by Jacobs 1990 on page 123).
> Doris Pilkington described the conditions as `more like a concentration camp than a residential school for Aboriginal children' (Pilkington 1996 page 72).






> Young men and women constantly ran away (this was in breach of the Aborigines Act). *Not only were they separated from their families and relatives, but they were regimented and locked up like caged animals, locked in their dormitory after supper for the night. They were given severe punishments, including solitary confinements for minor misdeeds *(Choo 1989 page 46).




........  An Aboriginal witness to the Inquiry in Perth who taught in the school at Moore River during the 1950s gave evidence that inmates were flogged *with a cat-o'-nine-tails (now held in the WA Museum)* (confidential evidence 681).


Conditions in other children's institutions are also remembered as harsh. Melbourne law firm Phillips Fox summarised the experience reported by their clients.



> ... the consistent theme for post-removal memories is the lack of love, the strict, often cruel, treatment by adults, the constantly disparaging remarks about Aboriginality - and the fact that the child should be showing more gratitude for having been taken from all that - and of course, the terrible loneliness and longing to return to family and community. Some commented that `I thought I was in a nightmare'. `I couldn't work out what I'd done wrong to deserve this'. `It was like being in prison'. `It was very strict - you weren't allowed to do anything' (submission 20 page 6).
> There was no food, nothing. We was all huddled up in a room ... like a little puppy-dog ... on the floor ... Sometimes at night time we'd cry with hunger, no food ... We had to scrounge in the town dump, eating old bread, smashing tomato sauce bottles, licking them. Half of the time the food we got was from the rubbish dump.
> Confidential evidence 549, Northern Territory: man removed to Kahlin Compound at 3 years in the 1930s; subsequently placed at The Bungalow.






> It's a wonder we all survived with the food we got. For breakfast we got a bit of porridge with saccharine in it and a cup of tea. The porridge was always dry as a bone. Lunch was a plate of soup made out of bones, sheeps' heads and things like that, no vegetables. For dinner we had a slice of bread with jam and a cup of tea. After our dinner we were locked up in a dormitory for the night.
> WA woman who lived at Moore River Settlement from 1918 until 1939, quoted by Haebich 1982 on page 59.



Institutional regimes were typically very strictly regulated.



> Dormitory life was like living in hell. It was not a life. The only thing that sort of come out of it was how to work, how to be clean, you know and hygiene. That sort of thing. But we got a lot bashings.
> Confidential evidence 109, Queensland: woman removed at 5 years in 1948.
> Children's well-being was sometimes severely neglected.






> These are people telling you to be Christian and they treat you less than a bloody animal. One boy his leg was that gangrene we could smell him all down the dormitories before they finally got him treated properly.
> Confidential evidence, New South Wales: man removed to Kinchela Boys' Home in the 1960s.






> I remember the beatings and hidings [they] gave us and what I saw. I remember if you played up, especially on a Sunday, you got the cane. You play chasing, you had to drop your pants, lie across the bed and get 3-5 whacks. If you pissed the bed - another 3-5. I remember seeing, when I was about 7 or 9 - I think it was IM get pulled by the hair and her arm twisted behind her back and hit in the face ...
> Confidential evidence 251, South Australia: man removed to Colebrook at 2 years in the 1950s.





> I've seen girls naked, strapped to chairs and whipped. We've all been through the locking up period, locked in dark rooms. I had a problem of fainting when I was growing up and I got belted every time I fainted and this is belted, not just on the hands or nothing. *I've seen my sister dragged by the hair into those block rooms and belted because she's trying to protect me ... How could this be for my own good? Please tell me. *
> Confidential evidence 8, New South Wales: woman removed to Cootamundra Girls' Home in the 1940s.



In some cases administrators were admonished for their treatment of inmates or residents. Former WA Chief Protector, A O Neville, described in his 1947 book some of the treatments meted out by his staff at the Moore River Settlement.


> One Superintendent I had, because he suspected him of some moral lapse, tarred and feathered a native, and he did the job thoroughly, calling the staff to see the rare bird he had captured ... Another Manager I did appoint, an ex-Missionary, and a good man too, I had to dismiss for chaining girls to table legs ... Indeed, it was found necessary to provide by regulation for the abolition of `degrading' and injurious punishments and the practice of holding inmates up to ridicule, such as dressing them in old sacks or shaving girls' heads (Neville 1947 pages 112-113).




Verbal complaints and formal petitions were dismissed by one superintendent who told the commissioner, `the natives generally feel that they must always have some complaints when you visit them' (quoted by Haebich 1982 on page 59).


In 1927 Mrs Curry, a former employee at Cootamundra Girls' Home in NSW, alleged that girls had been `flogged, slashed with a cane etc etc 

In 1935 the NSW Aborigines Protection Board commissioned a report on the conduct of the manager of Kinchela Boys' Home following receipt of allegations of insobriety and ill-treatment of the boys. Upon consideration of the report late in that year, the Board determined to `strongly advise' the manager `to give up taking intoxicating liquor entirely' particularly when in the company of the boys and to inform him `that on no account must he tie a boy up to a fence or tree, or anything else of that nature, to inflict punishment on him, *that such instruments as lengths of hosepipe or a stockwhip must not be used in chastising a boy, that no dietary punishments shall be inflicted on any inmate in the Home'*. (NSW Aborigines Protection Board Minutes of Meetings, 4 December 1935).


*Almost 1 in every five (19%) Inquiry witnesses who spent time in an institution reported having been physically assaulted there.*


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 December 2007)

Sexual abuse
Children in every placement were vulnerable to sexual abuse and exploitation. The following table indicates the placements in which Inquiry witnesses for whom the information could be extracted report having experienced sexual assaults. It should be noted that witnesses were not asked whether they had had this experience and that there are many reasons, personal and procedural, for deciding against volunteering the information.


Sexual assaults reported by Inquiry witnesses
Placement   ....... Males  (reported)...  (not reported) ......  Females (reported) ... (not reported)


Institution ..... 10 (8.5%).....  (91.5%) ........... 19 (11.7%) ...... 144 (88.3%) 

Foster family .....    5 (10%) ......   45 (90%) .....   21 (29.6%) ....   50 (70.4%) 

Adoptive family ....   1 (4.8%) ....   20 (95.2%) .....   6 (27.3%) ....   16 (72.7%) 

Work   ... 0 ( - )    ....   19 (100%) ....    4 (10.5%) ....    34 (89.5%) 

Total ....    16 (7.7%) ....    192 (92.3%) ...    50 (17.0%) ...    244 (83.0%) 


Girls were more at risk than boys. For girls in particular the risk of sexual assault in a foster placement was far greater than in any other.


*Almost one in ten boys and just over one in ten girls allege they were sexually abused in a children's institution.*


*...... These were the things that were done ... It was seen to be the white man's way of lookin' after you. It never happened with an Aboriginal. 
Confidential evidence 340, Western Australia: man removed in the 1930s to Sister Kate's Orphanage.*




> I was being molested in the home by one of the staff there ... I didn't know what she was doing with me. I didn't know anything about sex or anything like that, we weren't told. I can remember a piece of wood shaped like a walking cane only on a smaller scale, like the candy striped lollipops they make today approximately 30cms long. She was telling me all about the time she was with my mother when she died and how my mother had told her how much she loved me. She also had a large bag of puffed wheat near the bed, because she knew how much I loved it. All this time she was inserting this cane into my vagina. I guess I was about 9 or 10. I know she did this to me many times over the years until she left the Home when I was about 14 years old.   .....  One night I hid under the bed. I held onto the bed and she pulled me out and flogged me with the strap. She is my biggest memory of that home.
> Confidential evidence 10, Queensland: NSW woman removed to Cootamundra Girls' Home in the 1940s.




etc etc 


Julia
yep - sure was a healthy system that stolen generation stuff..  

And You expect me to answer you on current abuse ...

and meanwhile you think you don't have to answer my question - 
e) Why were kids had been taken from loving families 
f) sometimes with the father in active service
g) only to be treated like that !!  

Then of course there was the church ....  



> When I was at Castledare I was badly interfered with by one of those brothers. I still know the room [in the church]. I was taken, selectively taken, and I was interfered with by one of those brothers. And if you didn't respond in a way, then you were hit, you were hit. I never told anyone that.
> Confidential evidence 679, Western Australia: man removed at birth in the 1940s.





One in ten boys and three in ten girls allege they were sexually abused in a foster placement or placements.




> I ran away because my foster father used to tamper with me and I'd just had enough. I went to the police but they didn't believe me. So she [foster mother] just thought I was a wild child and she put me in one of those hostels and none of them believed me - I was the liar.
> 
> So I've never talked about it to anyone. I don't go about telling lies, especially big lies like that.
> Confidential evidence 214, Victoria: woman removed at 7 years in the 1960s.





> I led a very lost, confused, sad, empty childhood, as my foster father molested me. He would masturbate in front of me, touch my private parts, and get me to touch his. I remember once having a bath with my clothes on `cause I was too scared to take them off. I was scared of the dark `cause my foster father would often come at night. I was scared to go to the outside toilet as he would often stop me on the way back from the toilet. So I would often wet the bed `cause I didn't want to get out of bed. I was scared to tell anyone `cause I once attempted to tell the local Priest at the Catholic church and he told me to say ten Hail Mary's for telling lies. So I thought this was how `normal' non-Aboriginal families were. I was taken to various doctors who diagnosed me as `uncontrollable' or `lacking in intelligence'.
> Confidential submission 788, New South Wales: woman removed at 3 years in 1946; experienced two foster placements and a number of institutional placements.



One in ten girls allege they were sexually abused in a work placement organised by the Protection Board or institution. Other exploitation was known and condemned, but not prevented. *By 1940 the NSW Board's record with respect to Aboriginal girls placed in service was well-known and even condemned in Parliament.*



> It has been known for years that these unfortunate people are exploited. Girls of 12, 14 and 15 years of age have been hired out to stations and have become pregnant. Young male aborigines who have been sent to stations receive no payment for their services ... Some are paid as little as sixpence a week pocket money and a small sum is retained on their behalf by the Board. In some instances they have difficulty later in recovering that amount from the Board (quoted in NSW Government submission page 41).




*In WA even the Chief Protector himself recognised the sufferings of many of the children he had placed `in service'.*

this just goes on and on ...
It reads like a bludy nightmare. 



.....


> One NSW employer pursued her servant's former employer with rape charges. `In 1940 she arranged for a state ward formerly in her charge to sue her [previous] employer for assault' (Read 1994 page 8). This servant, a Koori girl of only 16 at the time the allegations were made public, had been raped by her previous employer. This was confirmed by two subsequent medical examinations. Nevertheless, the Aborigines Protection Board officials to whom the matter was reported `accused the girl of being a "sexual maniac" who had lived with "dozens of men" ` (Hankins 1982 page 4.6.6). In 1941 this young woman was `committed to Parramatta Mental Hospital where she remained for 21 years until the authorities discharged her as having no reason to remain' (Read 1994 page 8). No charges were ever laid against her attacker.




etc etc 
sickening !
but sure - you people happily defend it 


.........  in your ignorance.


----------



## 2020hindsight (21 December 2007)

Those quotes / stories etc are from this website...  


Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission 

(just a fraction of what's written there) 
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/stolen/stolen18.html


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## Julia (22 December 2007)

2020, I don't need to read the mountains of quotes, thanks.  I have never disputed that horrific abuse occurred.  It also occurred to white children in institutions.

You don't seem to be able to comprehend my position on this so I will be very patient and try to explain once again.

1.  I am happy for the govt to say sorry.  Say anything they like that will stop the living in the past and allow us to move on to a more constructive future.

2.  I am also happy for compensation to be paid if that were to mean they decided in response to take responsibility for abusing their own children.
I am utterly fed up with the expectation that "the gummint'" needs to fix everything.  Individuals , all of us, need to take responsiblity for our own behaviour, and indigenous communities collectively need to stop wallowing in the blame game and do something about the grossly dysfunctional abuse which abounds.  I don't care, at this stage, what the cause is.

Many of us have been physically, sexually and emotionally abused as children, and/or as adults.  That does not give us licence to perpetuate the violence and fail to seek change.

3.  I am not happy for compensation to be paid if it is simply going to be spent on grog, four wheel drive vehicles, etc etc.  This is why I asked you how you thought any compensation should be paid and what it should be expected to achieve.

In other words, what outcomes do you expect saying "sorry" and/or paying compensation will achieve?
Very simple question.
I think it's now the fourth time I have asked it.
Too hard?


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 December 2007)

disarray said:


> now if the evil whitefella came and snatched kids from loving homes with good conditions with bad intentions then yeah, we should apologise. but they didn't, they honestly thought they were doing the right thing. if you want to attack something like this you have to look at the intent.
> 
> eg. the holocaust. intent? exterminate the jews. hmmm thats bad.
> eg2. the stolen generation. intent? try and civilise a people you think are a bunch of stone age savages with low life expectancy and zero prospects (not much has changed) so you can help them better themselves. hmmm thats not so bad.



See, to take kids away, and then ignore their plight, even put them in institutions and use cat-of-9-tails on em …. doesn’t quite sound like good intentions to me.  



disarray said:


> being all emotional and going on about stealing children doesn't really look at the big picture which is where things need to be viewed. anyway if some aboriginal communities were as bad then as they are now we should steal another bloody generation.



Those stats back there for the stolen kids are worse than current. 
So what’s the big picture disarray – going out and beating the snot out of em ?




			
				Julia said:
			
		

> 2020: could you consider a response to this please? You clearly think compensation should be paid: How do you think this will make the whole process of reconciliation better, i.e. how should it happen, who would actually get what money, how would it be determined, and how would we as taxpayers feel confident that it's not going to be spent on the aforementioned grog, 4 wheel drives, tinnies etc etc?
> How would this monetary compensation ameliorate their plight in any direction?
> Would there be conditions attached to how the funds were to be spent?




Julia –first step is to say sorry.  If the courts so deem it, then compensation as well.  There was a time when the majority of Australians wanted to say sorry.  Then of course Johnny Howard managed to pour acid all over it, and it ended in a racial mess. 

How will the money help – as if you or I have the right to tell them hw they spend their money . ! – buy a house! – send their kids to university ! whatever they like obviously. 



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> What would be your answer to "stealing" some of the current generation of children rather than leave then vulnerable to further sexual violence within their own communities?



Julia, since 30% of stolen girls in foster homes were sexually abused – )and the same in adoptive homes incidentally) - and by comparison, you can count the number of child sex abuse cases found in the latest intervention on the fingers of a leper’s hand – then your question doesn’t make sense does it !! ?? 

then of course there was the “boy in the suitcase” incident recently, where I think I argued police and/or DoCS should have intervened, don’t think you backed me up on that occasion- as I recall.  But I concede that’s another story



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> As Disarray and others have said, the 'stolen generation' were not removed out of any sense of malevolence but in the genuine belief that their chances of a better life would be increased by so doing. Imo we are doing the current generation of abused children a dreadful disservice by leaving them in the hands of abusers.
> 
> Whilst I respect your point of view, you do tend to be big on the emotive stuff and very light on the practicalities and outcomes.




Malevolence? – mmm,  cat of 9 tails has gotta be getting close .

Julia - try reading some of those quotes - but better still , go to that website - because there are many many more such stories.  

That is the evidence in all this.  

Your conjecture about how they were treated -  well to be honest , it's inaccurate.  

Since the basic tenet in your argument falls over , so does the rest of your argument.  so try to read some of those stories.  

This is not about speculating about how they'll spend their money - it's about righting a wrong.  

Some of those stories are recent.  I was 20 + years old when they were still being stolen and whipped in institutions.  Makes me sick.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/stolen/

What outcome will saying sorry achieve? - like I said, it will start to address the injustice - start to mend the racial mess we are in - recognise that these people were SERIOUSLY badly treated - and go partway to compensating the individuals involved.   

Sadly only a token gesture (whether or not it is "sorry", or "sorry plus compensation")


----------



## chops_a_must (22 December 2007)

Julia said:


> 3.  I am not happy for compensation to be paid if it is simply going to be spent on grog, four wheel drive vehicles, etc etc.  This is why I asked you how you thought any compensation should be paid and what it should be expected to achieve.



I think this issue is quite a beat up. Judges simply don't give compo out if there is any hint of alcoholism. In my personal experience, and of seeing a lot of other people's compensation claims (my clients), the most absurd things get trotted out, and are usually reasons for a reduction or non payment of compensation. In my case, one of the reasons they didn't want to pay up, was because I had been horse whipped by police at a war protest. F*ck knows what that has to do with someone going through a stop sign, and f*ck knows how they even found that out! All I was after was medical expenses.

To get any sort of compensation, judges will look at many things. If you have any drug or alcohol problems, you wont get anything. If you have a checkered employment history, it will reduce it significantly. If you can't prove you have attempted to get help for the problems complained about, or shown financial hardship for trying to access these things, you wont get anything. I doubt many of these people who want compensation will fit the criteria needed. But if they have, if they have a decent employment history, have sort help, don't have alcohol or drug problems, then I'd say most people here would be pretty compassionate towards that.

But I've said this previously. Compensation wont solve anything. Because no doubt, many will fail the criteria above, and wont get anything. And then of course you have the claims of a racist justice system etc etc. But yeah, even smokers will have compensation payments reduced. The level that some of these get down to is really crazy when you hear about them fairly regularly. And I think in previous cases, stolen generation compensation claims have been thrown out of court.


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 December 2007)

Julia (and Disarray etc)
your turn to answer a question or two ..
no ... I'll give you my answer...

c) how would any of you blokes / ladies like it if your kids were taken forcibly from you?
d) would you feel that you were entitled to an apology at least?

answer
c) I would feel that the people who did it were the most sinful bastards on the planet, irrespective of whether they were flashing a bible around .  I would lose all trust in Whitey and respect for his law.

(and I would possibly die within a few years of heartache - which is also what happened in many cases). 

d) you bet I would


----------



## jman2007 (22 December 2007)

They need to find self-respect before they start asking for an apology, or money for that matter.  Then maybe they will have greater respect from Australia as a whole.

We have tried to hire many local people i.e. aboriginals, at our main mining and exploration operations as part of building community relationships. A very small percentage proved to be reliable and hard working, but the majority had no work ethic, consistently even failed to show up for work and generally lasted a week or two before disappering.

I would have thought the mining boom to be an ideal opportunity for them to showcase to Australia that "Yes, we are hard workers, and we are prepared to make a something of ourselves and help our people". But no, they don't really seem to be interested.  I also find it interesting that many native titles suddenly "appear" overnight and conveniently happen to be adjacent to company mining leases....

Just my


----------



## jman2007 (22 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> Julia (and Disarray etc)
> your turn to answer a question or two ..
> no ... I'll give you my answer...
> 
> ...




20/20,

No-one is trying to say what happened wasn't wrong or terrible, of course it was.  I think the problem a lot of poeple have is that the current white generation seem to be being held repsonsible for the sins of the past. And no, I didn't vote for Howard in case you are wondering.  You eventually reach a point where you have to say enough is enough.

I have soo many friends back in NZ who give their right arm to have the opportunity I have been given to work in the mining industry, but when I see local aboriginal people just completely blowing this chance to help themselves and not even give a ****, it is really frustrating.

Giving them loads off money isn't going to do anything.  There have been funerals in the town we work out of, and the $150 pp they get for coming doesn't go towards travel costs incurred getting to the funeral or finding accommodation, it goes on grog mate.

I really want to see them become a proud and successful people, but they absolutely have to find themselves first, and above all start respecting themselves.


----------



## noirua (22 December 2007)

My Great, Great - & lots more - Grandfather was shipped from England in the year 284, by the Romans, and was torn to shreads by a lion in the Arena. 
As the Pope is now in Rome and head of the Vatican, I think he should take responsibility and send me 100 million euros in compensation. 

Great, Great, and many more, Uncle Fred was dispossessed of his land in Essex, England, by William the Conqueror in 1066.   This land went to one of his Generals and I want it back. 

...and seriously folks, my Great, Great, Great Grandfather was swindled by a partner, in the 1840's, and finished his days in Australia, thought to have been N.S.W.  My share of the money he took was about one twentieth of $500,000 and I think the Goverment should cough up.

Aboriginals do get royalties on mining rights all over Australia. Whether the figures are fair or not I've no way of knowing. So, to some degree pay back time is underway now and far into the future.


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 December 2007)

so noi - you imply you could care less about the plight of currently alive stolen generation, yes?

incidentally, my grandfather was born a breach birth out near Birdsville in the 1800's - only an Ab widwife - no white woman for 100's of kms.  Only had Ab kids to play with until his brother came along (and joined the group lol )   - 

sure jman - I've worked with em too in rural qld , and I fully realise that they can go AWOL - Ab walkabout without leave.  often to come back with a hangover and a $100 taxi fare to pay .     But having said all that, the majority were responsible the majority of the time, great sense of humour ,  and we can either give the next generation a chance to improve, or keep bleating about how useless they are (ignoring their mitigating circumstances) - and pretending we had nothing to do with their predicament.


----------



## jman2007 (22 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> so noi - you imply you could care less about the plight of currently alive stolen generation, yes?
> 
> incidentally, my grandfather was born a breach birth out near Birdsville in the 1800's - only an Ab widwife - no white woman for 100's of kms.  Only had Ab kids to play with until his brother came along (and joined the group lol )   -
> 
> sure jman - I've worked with em too in rural qld , and I fully realise that they can go AWOL - Ab walkabout without leave.  often to come back with a hangover and a $100 taxi fare to pay .     But having said all that, the majority were responsible the majority of the time, great sense of humour ,  and we can either give the next generation a chance to improve, or keep bleating about how useless they are (ignoring their mitigating circumstances) - and pretending we had nothing to do with their predicament.




20/20

All of my experiences with local indigenous communities has been in remote WA areas, I have heard people say that the eastern communities have a bit more respect for the authorites in general and a slightly better "reputation", I definitely believe you when you say that you had a good expereince with them in QLD, I just haven't seen evidence of that over here yet. Open to debate of course.


----------



## noirua (22 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> so noi - you imply you could care less about the plight of currently alive stolen generation, yes?




well 2020, I'm not sure it is quite like that. Most of America is really owned by the Indians, and Canada. 
Everyone in Australia has an equal right to justice and I accept, that is sadly lacking in some parts, as a sad rape case highlighted.
Help should, in my view, always be limited to giving people equal rights and opportunities. Giving bundles of cash stops anyone from having the will to work.


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 December 2007)

jman - 
maybe there's a moral in this story as well

My granpa was born less than 20 years after Burke & Wills died at the Dig tree, and just a coupla hundred kms up Coopers Ck from there - 

Burke the idiot refused to trust the Abs and paid the ultimate price,
Wills would have trusted them 
King lived with the Abs for weeks, learning their unique skills, and was finally rescued 

Incidentally also, I've recently been to both Pilbara and Townsville - on each occasion I saw many well dressed and close-knit Ab families - siblings spoiling babies of the family, cuddling them, taking them to see billboards, explaining   etc  all good, very wholesome at first impression anyway, showing promise imo.


----------



## ithatheekret (22 December 2007)

noirua said:


> Great, Great, and many more, Uncle Fred was dispossessed of his land in Essex, England, by William the Conqueror in 1066.   This land went to one of his Generals and I want it back.




Nice spot Essex , t'was born there . If it was your land , sorry , I thought it was a hand me down , but , you can't have it back , We've got the deed .

Even if you get Liz to ask nicely , you've got buckleys ...........

That's just the way it goes , time will heal the anguish , for any other problems , your'e on your own cobber . But hey ......  we still have a trunk full of IOU's from Phillip the Fairs administration and I don't think there's enough Euros to compensate for it ............... so diddlies there .


......... and that's basically how it goes and has done since Adam stuffed up .

Now if someone was to even attempt to square the books , they wouldn't know where to start and that's where we have found ourselves , ten foot from the starters line in a muddle .

The catalyst for the entire mess it will cause , will be the interpretation of the law , by whoever gets the job of overseeing the cleanup . They've got so many corners and loopholes in it , they'll need interpreters for the law alone .

Either that or we'll end up looking pretty medieval , cheap banana republic etc etc .


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 December 2007)

noirua said:


> well 2020, I'm not sure it is quite like that. Most of America is really owned by the Indians, and Canada.
> Everyone in Australia has an equal right to justice and I accept, that is sadly lacking in some parts, as a sad rape case highlighted.
> Help should, in my view, always be limited to giving people equal rights and opportunities. Giving bundles of cash stops anyone from having the will to work.




noi
yes, but lets start with sorry.

The only reason compensation is being discussed is that so many round here seem determined that the Abs should not get any $$. 

it's a long shot whether money will even change hands.   But if it does
a) we can ( or have to be able to)  afford it, and
b) we have no right to get in the way of justice being dispensed if it is due to these folk.


----------



## Driver (22 December 2007)

I have similar concerns that others above have mentioned.

What happened "back then" was wrong - in all of our opinion, right?

But rather than trying to imagine what it was like back then, or the intentions or motivations of the parties involved - we have a very obvious example of history repeating. We can understand "then" in the context of now...

IMHO, one of the reasons for the recent fed gov intervention in NT - was the elections. Let's put that aside though... Does any rational well meaning person think that the state of affairs (child/women abuse, rape etc) should be allowed to continue?

If not, what is the solution? From what I see, if the government intervenes too strongly, they get slammed for that - if children are removed from bad situations we hear the chant of "stolen". If the government does nothing, then the humanists complain that something should be done... So whatever happens, there will be criticism and unhappy people.

On one hand we are told that indigenous people want to police themselves as they can't live with "white" law... on the other hand we have indigenous people complaining they want intervention...

As someone born in Australia (who's parents emigrated here in the 70's from a country that was once subjugated by the British Empire), I think I'm a pretty decent person. Whilst I think a lot of bad was done, and I feel regret for what happened - I am not sorry. And it may seem lame, but I'm not sorry because I didn't do it.

Now, to have 20 million people arguing about that in the context of women & children being mistreated seems to be missing the point. As is the fact that there is a magical X amount of dollars that will improve the situation?

If your kids have been stolen - no amount of $ will make that better. Nor if you are a stolen child, will $ make your life magically better...

To me, it seems that compared to the indigenous people in other countries - aborigines, are finding it a huge struggle to integrate into our society. I know, the setting in NZ was quite different - given the treaty of Waitangi and all that. For whatever reason, the Maori have been able to integrate a lot more (not completely) into the society of NZ. Why can't that happen in Australia?

I think government handouts or monetary compensation are not necessarily a solution - it doesn't promote self reliance or independance. I think education is the main thing that needs to be addressed. And I think we need to promote integration into mainstream society... like it or loathe it (our mainstream society), it is what the majority of us exist within. Tradition and culture is important, but as the many ethnic groups in Australia show - you can have your culture, and function in society.


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## noirua (22 December 2007)

I remember watching a TV programme about Alexander the Great (Alexander 111rd of Macedon, Greece), and some people are still upset and feeling disadvantaged by what was done over 2,300 years ago.
Sure, he founded 70 cities and fought for many years without defeat. But many peoples suffered and are still affected to this day.
After listening to their case, I feel, even after all this time, they should be compensated.


----------



## jman2007 (22 December 2007)

Driver said:


> I have similar concerns that others above have mentioned.
> 
> What happened "back then" was wrong - in all of our opinion, right?
> 
> ...




Hey 20/20, 5000 posts, congrats mate!

Driver, I agree with almost everything you say, as a kiwi myself the situation with the subjugation and empowerment of the Maori culture was a little different.  There are also "remote" areas in NZ of poverty and very low employment amongst Maori, but I daresay if NZ shared the geographical vastness of Aust then we would probably have problems as well.

For some reason, the Maori culture seems to have been assimilated and embraced by the "European's" in NZ quite successfully.  Maori generally have a very strong political voice often disproportionate to their actual numbers.  NZ was also the first country in the world to give women the vote, so you could say we are progresive, although I don't really know how this came about.

I believe that indigenous statistics in the eastern states are a lot more positive than out here in the west, with significant numbers of aboriginals holding down a good job and owning their own home. Integration and education is the key, indigenous communities just have to be convinced as well, which is the hard part.


----------



## chops_a_must (22 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> My granpa was born less than 20 years after Burke & Wills died at the Dig tree, and just a coupla hundred kms up Coopers Ck from there -
> 
> Burke the idiot refused to trust the Abs and paid the ultimate price,
> Wills would have trusted them
> King lived with the Abs for weeks, learning their unique skills, and was finally rescued




It's interesting you bring that up. I'm among the closest living descendants of a guy named Ernest Giles, given he died without kids (Great Grandad's brother, or close to). You may have heard of him: first white man to travel from Adelaide to Perth via land not along the coast; first white man to see Uluru; named Mount Olga (subsequently called the Olgas), has a weather station named after him, his work led to the exploration of the Goldfields, named the Gibson Desert etc etc.

Anyway, he credited his survival purely to his aboriginal trackers, one in particular, who he treated very well apparently. That gratefulness has been in the family ever since. My pop for instance, who was a country school headmaster, would take my mum and her siblings out to the reserves (back in the days where this would have led to him being sacked and never being allowed to work anywhere again) to give them food, clean water, and to make sure the kids were coming to school/ checking up on the ones that didn't. So yeah, I don't have much time for older folk here who never had the courage to see these sorts of things for themselves, and claim not to have been responsible for anything. Because it was right there.

Just thought I'd write that little story up.


----------



## Julia (22 December 2007)

chops_a_must said:


> To get any sort of compensation, judges will look at many things. If you have any drug or alcohol problems, you wont get anything. If you have a checkered employment history, it will reduce it significantly. If you can't prove you have attempted to get help for the problems complained about, or shown financial hardship for trying to access these things, you wont get anything. I doubt many of these people who want compensation will fit the criteria needed. But if they have, if they have a decent employment history, have sort help, don't have alcohol or drug problems, then I'd say most people here would be pretty compassionate towards that.
> 
> But I've said this previously. Compensation wont solve anything. Because no doubt, many will fail the criteria above, and wont get anything. And then of course you have the claims of a racist justice system etc etc. But yeah, even smokers will have compensation payments reduced. The level that some of these get down to is really crazy when you hear about them fairly regularly. And I think in previous cases, stolen generation compensation claims have been thrown out of court.



Interesting, Chops.  Thanks for that insight.

Driver, your infrequent posts contribute clarity and logic - much appreciated.

Jman (you are in NZ I think?) I lived all my life in NZ and simply regarded the Maori people as New Zealanders.  No different from me.  Wonderful musical and many other talents.  All those I knew had a great work ethic and valued education.  I've been in Oz now for 15 years and friends in NZ tell me there is more racial tension these days.  Is this right?  Is it clear why?

2020, as others have said, no one is disputing past abuse.  I have repeatedly said it's fine with me to say sorry, or whatever you like.
Please stop behaving as if I have no understanding of what it is like.
I would have preferred not to say this on a public forum but I was myself repeatedly sexually abused by my own grandfather throughout my childhood.   I have dealt with it and moved on so please just leave it alone.


----------



## 2020hindsight (22 December 2007)

brave post Julia
I'll back off a bit
call it a Xmas gesture 
ava merry one


----------



## Julia (22 December 2007)

2020hindsight said:


> brave post Julia
> I'll back off a bit
> call it a Xmas gesture
> ava merry one



Thank you 2020.
Merry Christmas to you too.


----------



## 2020hindsight (8 January 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/08/2133801.htm?section=justin


> The Federal Government is preparing an apology, but has rejected renewed calls from Aboriginal leaders to compensate people who were forcibly removed from their families.


----------



## Gspot (8 January 2008)

I would love to see a comparison, between the stolen generation and the kids of same age, that stayed with their families. 
A good documentary....don't you think?


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 January 2008)

Gspot - here are some stats...  refer http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/stolen/stolen18.html

Which ones do you want to interview? the ones in institutions once? twice? 


> Placement stability
> As the following table shows, a high proportion of children (based on the experiences of Inquiry witnesses) experienced multiple placements following their removal.
> 
> 
> ...





> Sexual assaults reported by Inquiry witnesses
> Placement ....... Males (reported)... (not reported) ...... Females (reported) ... (not reported)
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## cordelia (9 January 2008)

mmmmm who will pay for any compensation...let me see....that's right...the hard working average aussie who gets taxed more the harder he works to fund stupid govt initiatives like this. I get annoyed that I have to pay huge amounts of CGT to support this kind of nonsense......people complain about paying too much tax then they support this drivell.....go figure


----------



## 2020hindsight (9 January 2008)

cordelia said:


> mmmmm who will pay for any compensation...let me see....that's right...the hard working average aussie who gets taxed more the harder he works to fund stupid govt initiatives like this. I get annoyed that I have to pay huge amounts of CGT to support this kind of nonsense......people complain about paying too much tax then they support this drivell.....go figure




Cordelia ... In case you missed it, I post this one again ...(back at post #178 for the link).  
BTW, what you call "drivell" I call justice - but that's not something we are gonna be able to change here now. (my guess)



> The Federal Government is preparing an apology, but has rejected renewed calls from Aboriginal leaders to compensate people who were forcibly removed from their families.


----------



## Julia (16 January 2008)

2020 and Chops:

I wonder if you happened to hear a talk by Noel Pearson on Radio National this evening from 6 - 7pm.  It was based on an essay of his of a few months ago.

It was an erudite and thoughtful talk which just might possibly give you both food for thought as to what is best for our indigenous people.

A search on the ABC website would probably bring it up, or failing that, contacting the ABC always brings a courteous and helpful response.

I'd be interested in your comments after you've read a transcript/podcast.


----------



## 2020hindsight (17 January 2008)

Julia said:


> 2020 and Chops:
> 
> I wonder if you happened to hear a talk by Noel Pearson on Radio National this evening from 6 - 7pm.  It was based on an essay of his of a few months ago.
> 
> ...




holy drinking permits batman 

Julia , it lasts for an hour - can you give us a few specifics maybe - and we can comment on them ?


----------



## Julia (17 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> holy drinking permits batman
> 
> Julia , it lasts for an hour - can you give us a few specifics maybe - and we can comment on them ?




No, to attempt to do so would be an injustice to Mr Pearson.
If you are as passionate as you suggest about the welfare of aboriginal people you will find time to hear or read for yourself what he had to say.


----------



## agro (17 January 2008)

i thought aboriginals were Australians too?

can't keep living off welfare payments


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## 2020hindsight (17 January 2008)

Julia said:


> No, to attempt to do so would be an injustice to Mr Pearson.
> If you are as passionate as you suggest about the welfare of aboriginal people you will find time to hear or read for yourself what he had to say.




Julia , you say a speech from a few months ago . Was this the speech? or similar?  Where I posted extracts, and you told me I shouldn’t lol. 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=167618&highlight=pearson#post167618
Here's an extract from one of his speeches ...
http://www.cyi.org.au/speeches.aspx
http://www.cyi.org.au/WEBSITE uploa...sury_Passive Welfare and service delivery.doc

Sure I admire him and his optimism.  Every right to be because where he is the Abs are doing better than other places. 
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171279&highlight=pearson#post171279

Always been against hand outs
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171444&highlight=pearson#post171444

Only trouble is, he has been criticized by John Daly recently (and I think rightly so)
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=227515&highlight=pearson#post227515

PS might try on the weekend or whatever - but I was disappointed that he didn;t say anything when "intervention" was spread to communities that didn't have any problems on file. - guess he was pleased that something - anything was being done.


----------



## Julia (17 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Julia , you say a speech from a few months ago . Was this the speech? or similar?  Where I posted extracts, and you told me I shouldn’t lol.
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=167618&highlight=pearson#post167618
> Here's an extract from one of his speeches ...
> ...




2020, after I made my earlier post I tried to phone Radio National to see if I could get a link.  Was connected to an answering machine.  In case they don't ring back I have sent an email. Will hope to get something from one of those sources and when I do will pass it on.  
Will have a look at your above links to see if the contents seem to be from the talk when I have more time, probably over the weekend.


----------



## 2020hindsight (26 January 2008)

http://www.abc.net.au/message/news/stories/ms_news_2143738.htm


> Stolen Generations claimants announced
> 
> The Tasmanian Premier Paul Lennon has announced 106 people will share in a $5 million scheme to compensate the state's Stolen Generations.
> 
> ...




THis from 7 years ago - the feds spending $11million defending the Govt on one case. .. 

http://www.abc.net.au/specials/lingiari/pg11.htm



> On last reckoning about $11 million had already been spent on one case. How much will be spent on 2000 cases, or whatever the number might be?




http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/lawrpt/stories/s163676.htm

Deep Listening....
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/allinthemind/stories/2007/2096863.htm


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## 2020hindsight (26 January 2008)

Incidentally, this is what some Abs can claim if they take on the system individually   $525K  ....... 

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/stolen-generation-payout/2007/08/01/1185647978562.html



> Stolen generation payout
> August 2, 2007
> 
> Page 1 of 3 | Single page
> ...




etc etc


> He awarded Mr Trevorrow $450,000 for injuries and losses suffered, and a further $75,000 in damages for his unlawful removal and false imprisonment.


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## noirua (26 January 2008)

Hi 2020, Although I'm not unhappy about people being compensated, I wonder whether a wider view of this should be seen. 

Some people were affected by acts by others in the past and quite terrible were some of these. However, many people have suffered through many wars fought by Australia and some lost a great number of members of their family. 

In the First World War some lost the whole of their younger generation.

A lot of families should perhaps be awarded tens of billions of Dollars for losses due to suffering of their families in the past.

Remember Australia Aboriginals but DON'T forget the rest of the people who make up Australia!


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## 2020hindsight (26 January 2008)

Well all I can say is hat's off to the Tasmanian Govt for this initiative. 

noi, Your references to war 

Put yourself in the position of an Ab soldier - getting shot at from the front - and being stabbed in the back by the govt and others back home stealing your kid


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## noirua (26 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> Well all I can say is hat's off to the Tasmanian Govt for this initiative.
> 
> noi, Your references to war
> 
> Put yourself in the position of an Ab soldier - getting shot at from the front - and being stabbed in the back by the govt and others back home stealing your kid




Indeed, indeed, how could I not sympathise. What about the lack of compensation for the 75 miners killed in 1921 in the Mount Mulligan Mining Disaster, Far North Queensland and the lack of help given at the time to their families:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Mulligan_mine_disaster

I happen to know, through a late Uncle, how a friend of his received no compensation after leg injuries in the disaster.  He later went to live with his sister in Ontario at his disgust of the Queensland Authorities and Australian Government.


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## 2020hindsight (26 January 2008)

noi
no question, if they were entitled to compensation, they should get it.

My wife went to work as a legal secretary as a youngster - found an old file on a shelf - brushed off the 4 year old dust - a compensation case - encouraged everyone to look into it rather than leave the poor bloke in limbo for another n years - walked the case through, chose the expert witnesses - and (long story short) won one of the biggest compo awards to that point in time. 

My Dad was in the Airforce in Darwin in WWII - had a melanoma - his doctor casually mentioned it to him soon after he came back - but NO warning to DO anything about it (sheesh) - about a year later (too late) it was removed - my mum asked the doctor to certify (for War Widow's pension) that he had seen it soon after his return from Darwin - he refused - obviously it would embarrass his professional reputation.    

Dad died, mum struggled on with 3 kids - no war widow's pension - meanwhile other widows whose husbands died of diseases fairly difficult to associate with wartime service (Leukemia etc) received said pension.  I could tell you how hard mum worked but I don't want to bore you. All old history.  

In summary you don't always get compensation - still, assuming you are entitled to it, you should have access to claim it at least.


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## bunyip (26 January 2008)

This whole 'sorry' business with regard to the stolen generation makes me sick.
The current generation of Australians should not feel obliged to apologise for actions taken by others before many of us were even born! We are NOT responsible for what happened back then.
Should today's Germans apologise for what the Nazis did? Of course not! They can't be held responsible for what happened long before their time.

Instead of harping on the emotional issues with regard to the so called 'stolen generation', let's be a little more broad-minded and consider the other aspects relevant to the situation.
The government of the time believed that aboriginal children were severely disadvantaged by being brought up in aboriginal communities. For the purpose of giving these children better prospects in life, the decision was made to remove some (not all) of them to a different environment where they'd be fed and clothed and given the sort of education, guidance, and life skills that would enable them to function normally in society. 
Nobody is denying the obvious distress to the children and their families. But in fairness to the decision makers of the time, we should understand that they were acting in what they believed to be the best long term interests of the children. These children were, afterall, half caste children who were part white - perhaps they belonged as much in white society as they did in black.

So what was the outcome of this policy of relocating aboriginal children to environments that were considered more suitable, at least by the white decision makers? 
Did the removal policy achieve its objectives, and if so, have those objectives proven to be worthwhile?
Or would those children have been better off if they'd stayed with their families and grown up in an aboriginal environment? You be the judge.
I've seen quite a few of the 'stolen' generation interviewed on TV now that they're adults. Most of them were well dressed and well spoken, had responsible jobs, and were making something of their lives.
How would they have fared if they'd been left in their communities with their families?
I'm one of a minority of Australians who have personally been out to those remote aboriginal communities to see first hand the environment in which they live and raise their children. There's no doubt in my mind that, with few exceptions,  the 'stolen' generation are better off than their full-blooded half brothers and sisters who were left in their aboriginal environment.

I can't think of a more thankless task than trying to formulate policies to help aboriginal people - those responsible for making these decisions are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Noel Pearson is held in high regard by many people, myself included, for his innovative thinking and conscientious efforts to help his own people. And yet he has his detractors, aboriginal people among them, and has received death threats on more than one occasion.
Former politician Mal Brough is a another courageous and innovative thinker who had the best interests of aboriginal people at heart. He put his political reputation on the line by introducing far-reaching measures aimed at improving the lives of aboriginal children. He received more criticism than favourable support, and was voted out of office at the last election.
Those who made the decisions in the 'stolen generation' issue were genuinely trying to help aboriginal people - but they've been ostracised ever since.

Over the years the situation has deteriorated alarmingly for children in aboriginal communities. These days they're increasingly subjected to violence and drunkenness and sexual abuse from their own people. The really sad part is that children raised in this type of environment are likely to adopt the same sort of unsavoury behaviour themselves in adult life.
Here's a point to ponder....
Would these children be better off in the long term if they were removed from their families and placed instead with foster families who'd give them education, guidance, and treat them with the love and respect and dignity that are essential for the normal development of children?
Or would their long term interests be better served by leaving them with their families in their present environment?

And now we have the situation that was entirely predictable....aboriginals want compensation for what they like to tell people was a grave injustice committed against them. 
Maybe it's them who should be be making financial reimbursement for costs incurred by those who gave aboriginal children the chance for better lives.


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## skint (26 January 2008)

Can someone please point out to me the difference between individuals seeking compensation from a company (James Hardie) knowingly endangering its workers, or a church (Catholic) knowingly turning a blind eye to children being sexually abused or a government (Australia) knowlingly kidnapping children? Further, could any of the many posters in the Pauline Hanson camp truly claim they would not seek redress if their children were taken from them or were a child taken from their parents? Turn it up! As usual, 20/20, you're a lonely voice of reason. Keep it up mate!
If you disenfranchise (Aborigines were counted as fauna until the late sixties), marginalise and kick a community in the teeth for a couple of hundred years, it is unreasonable to assume that the problems (substance abuse/dependence, domestic violence, crime etc..) that result will be fixed within a generation by telling them to "get a job". 
I think some posters would benefit from thinking a little further about how the situation developed (similar to indigenous peoples in many countries) rather than just the resultant symptoms.


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## skint (26 January 2008)

bunyip said:


> This whole 'sorry' business with regard to the stolen generation makes me sick.
> The current generation of Australians should not feel obliged to apologise for actions taken by others before many of us were even born! We are NOT responsible for what happened back then.
> Should today's Germans apologise for what the Nazis did? Of course not! They can't be held responsible for what happened long before their time.
> 
> ...




Talk about a rose-coloured glasses view of history. Manning Clark, eat your heart out! For example, many of the children were placed in orphanages and treated hideously. I had an aboriginal friend who was removed from here mother without consent. In her adoptive white family, she was repeatedly raped as a young girl and also physically abused. Was she better off? As a young bloke, I lived in the Territory and spent some time working as a jackeroo with many Aborigines. They were very much considered to be second class citizens. You don't fix a community by further dividing it.


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## numbercruncher (27 January 2008)

> Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says an apology to indigenous Australians will aim to "bridge the gap" with non-indigenous Australians rather than providing any compensation.
> 
> Mr Rudd said compensation did not need to be part of the reconciliation efforts.




http://au.news.yahoo.com/080127/2/15nf0.html


Good on yah Ruddmeister !


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## ithatheekret (27 January 2008)

He must have read the Liabilities Act over the last few weekends .

If he wants some good dunny reading , there's over 30,000 tax laws he could get upto date on . I'd suggest he did it one volume at a time though , or he wouldn't have room to flush .............


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## BIG BWACULL (27 January 2008)

Well they have enough money in the future fund to set up a past fund  To pay for any f%$k ups they encounter  ,  (call it an insurance policy if you like) After all there is 61.3 billion in there


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## 2020hindsight (27 January 2008)

skint said:


> Talk about a rose-coloured glasses view of history. Manning Clark, eat your heart out! For example, many of the children were placed in orphanages and treated hideously. I had an aboriginal friend who was removed from here mother without consent. In her adoptive white family, she was repeatedly raped as a young girl and also physically abused. Was she better off? As a young bloke, I lived in the Territory and spent some time working as a jackeroo with many Aborigines. They were very much considered to be second class citizens. You don't fix a community by further dividing it.



skint 
needless to say, I fully agree with you.

and bunyip 
I can't find much in your post that doesn't fly in the face of the facts. 

Like Julia and Disarray, you assume that the pre "Bringing them Home" spin is accurate, when it has been shown to be an absolute disgrace throughout the system. Massive percentages of institutionalisation, and sexual abuse etc (read a few of the posts back there). 

Hell, we've collectively got problems no question. That recent incident in Geralton was a real worry. (beach murder of cricketer etc) - I'm including the responsible Ab elders/leaders in that one when I said "we've got problems". 

Wouldn't it be great if we could sort out the past, get the sense of some sort of justice back on an even keel, and then eventually end up with a system that applies to all aussies.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/stolen/stolen18.html

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/


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## Julia (27 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> skint
> needless to say, I fully agree with you.
> 
> and bunyip
> ...




2020m I am really tired of you classifying my remarks on this subject with those of Disarray and now Bunyip.

All I have ever said is that I believe the actions of those of our forebears who removed Aboriginal children from their homes were well intentioned.
I have never proposed that the outcome was in any way successful.
You are in no position to know the thinking of those who decided children would have a better future away from their communities.

Incidentally, one of the comments Noel Pearson made in the address I mentioned earlier in this thread was that the now adults who were removed as children have by and large grown into responsible adults with a sound work ethic.

Let's just look at the troubled communities we have at present:
do you maintain that leaving little children with their drug addicted and alcoholic abusive families is preferable to removing them into responsible foster care?
(And please don't trot out all that stuff about abuse also happening in foster families.  Of course it does. But it is very rare, not commonplace as seems to be the case in the aboriginal communities where violence and abuse has become the norm.)


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## 2020hindsight (27 January 2008)

Julia said:


> Leaving aside the question of compensation  for a moment,  I'd like to ask those who feel the Aborigines are in the dysfunctional state they are because of white people what remedy you feel would be appropriate?
> Is the payment of multiple millions suddenly going to stop violence and sexual abuse?
> 
> 
> ...






> 2020: could you consider a response to this please? You clearly think compensation should be paid: How do you think this will make the whole process of reconciliation better, i.e. how should it happen, who would actually get what money, how would it be determined, and how would we as taxpayers feel confident that it's not going to be spent on the aforementioned grog, 4 wheel drives, tinnies etc etc?
> How would this monetary compensation ameliorate their plight in any direction?
> Would there be conditions attached to how the funds were to be spent?
> 
> ...




Julia
 Let's sort out the past ( which you seem to agree - I think (??) - was totally unjustified) 

THEN let's talk about the future.

PS Just admit that stealing kids is a no-no maybe?
then we (you and I ) will start to move this argument forward..... OK?
And by the way - you seem perfectly happy to overrule the Australian Courts - yet you refuse to read the evidence 
They were  forcibly stolen from perfectly happy 'families' in general.

and THEN the abuse started - OK?


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## skint (28 January 2008)

Julia said:


> All I have ever said is that I believe the actions of those of our forebears who removed Aboriginal children from their homes were well intentioned.
> I have never proposed that the outcome was in any way successful.
> You are in no position to know the thinking of those who decided children would have a better future away from their communities.




Your confusing the current debate with the issues currently being discussed in the media and also parliament. Children, up until the late sixties, were taken from their families based soley on their skin colour. The whiter they were, the greater their chances of "salvation". As I mentioned previously,when a national census was conducted during that time, the well-intentioned "forebears" you refer to classified Aborigines as fauna. That's right, subhuman animals. Australian governments at the time also unashamedly promoted white people as superior beings. In short, they were unambiguously and openly racist. 
By your line of reasoning, if some well-intentioned person kidnaps a child as they're wondering through Woollies because they believe they can give the child a better life (for say cultural or religous reasons), then they should get off without consequence. Good intentions based upon highly bigoted principles just don't cut it for mine. 
As Will Smith (I think), stated recently, "I'm sure Hitler got out of bed each morning in the firm belief he was doing the right and proper thing". Hardly in the same ballpark, but such an extreme example of someone with so-called "good intentions" illustrates the extent to which using the "we meant well" line as completely without credibility.


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## Julia (28 January 2008)

skint said:


> Your confusing the current debate with the issues currently being discussed in the media and also parliament. Children, up until the late sixties, were taken from their families based soley on their skin colour. The whiter they were, the greater their chances of "salvation". As I mentioned previously,when a national census was conducted during that time, the well-intentioned "forebears" you refer to classified Aborigines as fauna. That's right, subhuman animals. Australian governments at the time also unashamedly promoted white people as superior beings. In short, they were unambiguously and openly racist.
> By your line of reasoning, if some well-intentioned person kidnaps a child as they're wondering through Woollies because they believe they can give the child a better life (for say cultural or religous reasons), then they should get off without consequence. Good intentions based upon highly bigoted principles just don't cut it for mine.
> As Will Smith (I think), stated recently, "I'm sure Hitler got out of bed each morning in the firm belief he was doing the right and proper thing". Hardly in the same ballpark, but such an extreme example of someone with so-called "good intentions" illustrates the extent to which using the "we meant well" line as completely without credibility.




OK, Skint.  That's a perfectly reasonable point of view.  So what would you like to happen right now? How can all the mess be fixed?


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## 2020hindsight (28 January 2008)

Julia said:


> OK, Skint.  That's a perfectly reasonable point of view.  So what would you like to happen right now? How can all the mess be fixed?



thats a different thread Julia

the Tas Govt seems to disagree with you btw


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## Kauri (28 January 2008)

some of the last_ "nomads"_ in Australia were "_brought in"_ in the late 50's early 60's, in fact the last group to walk in from Lake Mackay area was in the early 80's (not the oft publicised Wiluna mob). Times were pretty hard around then for the true nomad, so most were glad to get the damper etc and ended up in camps.( the swollen bellies are actually caused by malnutririon!! particularly in the kids)..
 A lot of the kids were left in the missions to be cared for (fed) whilst the adults typically lived semi-nomadic lifestyle, returning to the mission outskirts for tucker.. now these kids are "_stolen generation"_ and will easily qualify for compensation. I have worked amonst and know a lot of the adults then and the kids/now young adults.
 Will they que up for compo... too right.. who amongst us wouldn't given half the chance..
 Will it help them/ improve thier life style... I would be very surprised...
 Who will ultimately gain... the people who truck up the dilapidated 4WD's kidnapped from the wreckers yard.. and sell them to the locals in the central western desert. ( Hi Joseph  ).. In a years time after the compo has been paid out the only signs of it will be the abandoned wrecks scattered across the desert.
 Bring it on....

 P.S.. if anyone is _remote_..ly interested the book about the last great roundup is about $30 
  The Lizard eaters
   Douglas Lockwood
    J.B BooksAustralia
      ISBN 1 8602 644 4  
 available if ordered through Dymocks..

Cheers
..........Kauri


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## 2020hindsight (28 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> thats a different thread Julia
> 
> the Tas Govt seems to disagree with you btw



I guess you could quote the old book.. 

Matthew  4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues,
and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of
sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Acts 4:22 For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of
healing was shewed.


(me quoting the bible ? - a first for everything) 
but I would have thought the concept of "healing" pretty easy to understand whether or not you were religious.

PS Jeremiah 14:19 .. why hast thou smitten us, and there is no healing for us? we looked for
peace, and there is no good; and for the time of healing, and behold
trouble!  

14:20 We acknowledge, O LORD, our wickedness, and the
iniquity of our fathers: for we have sinned against thee

20:20 and ye shall say sorry- 
 and surely as day follows night - 
with the possible exception of solar eclipses -
the healing shall follow
the exact extent of which, time will tell 
but, hey, for a glimmer of justice, 
it will be worth it - assuming we call ourselves "just" that is


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## skint (28 January 2008)

Julia said:


> OK, Skint.  That's a perfectly reasonable point of view.  So what would you like to happen right now? How can all the mess be fixed?




Bugger*d if I know. Whatever has been proposed or implemented in the past, from both sides of politics, hasn't worked. It seems that after years of poorly targeted funding, many are attracted towards quick-fix solutions such as sending in the cavalry. I can't see how that will produce generational change within the communities either.
Obviously a first step is to provide long-term basic infrastructure in housing, health and rehabilitation services, policing and education. Whilst I appreciate the difficulties faced in providing these services in remote communities, with more than their fair share of problems, it is also true that without the infrastructure, no meaningful progress will be made. 
As far as children in abusive environments (and this applies to black, white or brindle), perhaps it would be helpful to have these children placed in "safe houses" _within_ a community. An abusive environment is traumatic for any child, however suddenly isolating a child from anyone they've ever known is also not without consequence, especially as many don't speak English. If there's one thing to be learnt from history, if the communitiy is not involved, changes will be temporary and superficial.
Having just rabbited on, perhaps we're getting off the topic of the thread. This discussion probably belongs on a "Child abuse and magic wands in 2008" thread.


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## skint (28 January 2008)

The question of compensation is not what whether the money will do any good, but moreover it is whether a person is legally entitled to it.
For example,if 20/20 gets on "the sauce" and flies his hang-glider through my window, destroying my recently acquired Sydney Nolan (I wish) in the process, I'm entitled to sue for compensation. What I do with that money would be my business. I would be perfectly entitled to blow the whole shebang at the track if so chose. Doesn't alter the right to sue in the first place.
Fly safe 20/20!


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## Kauri (28 January 2008)

skint said:


> The question of compensation is not what whether the money will do any good, but moreover it is whether a person is legally entitled to it.
> For example,if 20/20 gets on "the sauce" and flies his hang-glider through my window, destroying my recently acquired Sydney Nolan (I wish) in the process, I'm entitled to sue for compensation. What I do with that money would be my business. I would be perfectly entitled to blow the whole shebang at the track if so chose. Doesn't alter the right to sue in the first place.
> Fly safe 20/20!




 Couldn't agree more... my rather obscure point was.. sorry I should have made it clearer  
  they get compo of say $100,000 ... and in a year, or less, it is gone.. (I have seen larger sums from "gate money" dissappear in less than a year.)
_You get compo of $100,000 from 21/20 for sticking his head through your Nolan..._

If you already recieved..
rent free housing
cost free housing maint regardless of cause of damage or cost
free power
free water and sewerage
free medical.. permanent on-site RN and twice weekly RFDS clinics, visiting paeditricians et al, free mobile dentistry via a fully equiped truck based visiting clinic
free community transport to footy games or whatever..
free roaming taxman from the tax dept to do your returns on your sit-down money (yes.. you actually get tax back on the communities dole version)
free... well free everything apart from fuel and food ( and since the community store is community owned and tax exempt all profits after running costs are returned to the community)..

  Well I would be a tad cynical if the bleeding hearts brigade cried out for more services and money because you were hard done by.. 
Cheers
..........Kauri


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## mvp6996 (28 January 2008)

We should do just give them a whole shx+ load of alcohol, dump them in the northern territory, say we're sorry and leave it at that. 

They fr3@k!n want "equal rights", which pretty much means privileged rights. They want what normal working people have without having to do sh!+ for it. For hundreds of years they've been getting money from the government, and their fr3@k!n standard of living has gone backwards. If they wanted to be equal, then they would get off their lazy asses and get proper jobs and pay taxes like every one else. 

I also say we shouldn't have to pay them anything. Imagine if the british had to pay all the people they colonised, they would be broke.

Any compensation should go to referendum and see how many people would support it.


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## skint (28 January 2008)

mvp6996 said:


> We should do just give them a whole shx+ load of alcohol, dump them in the northern territory, say we're sorry and leave it at that.
> 
> They fr3@k!n want "equal rights", which pretty much means privileged rights. They want what normal working people have without having to do sh!+ for it. For hundreds of years they've been getting money from the government, and their fr3@k!n standard of living has gone backwards. If they wanted to be equal, then they would get off their lazy asses and get proper jobs and pay taxes like every one else.
> 
> ...




History and deductive reasoning are not your strong suits, are they mpv?


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## 2020hindsight (28 January 2008)

skint said:


> ...flies his hang-glider through my window, destroying my recently acquired Sydney Nolan (I wish) in the process, I'm entitled to sue for compensation. ...Fly safe 20/20!



:topic  DRive safe you mean 
m8, lol I haven't flown for 20 years (kids mortgage etc) .. 
I have my eye on one under a house down the road - only crashed once   landed in the sea off Stanwell Park - fortunately he was a strong swimmer - and I can also get by in that regard lol. 

But if I do, I'll give you a call - and ask you to take your Sidney Nolans away from the window  - in fact, move house for the weekend lol.  

PS If you're interested, this is how hanggliding started - heavy Aussie involvement ... 

PS Thought for the day "What fraction of Americans believe wrestling is real and NASA is fake?"   


 hang gliding pioneers-   An interview with Francis Rogallo (NASA), John Dickenson (Aus) , and Bill Moyes (Aus) in 1988


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## Julia (28 January 2008)

skint said:


> Bugger*d if I know. Whatever has been proposed or implemented in the past, from both sides of politics, hasn't worked.




I appreciate your honesty and willingness to respond to the question, Skint.

I mentioned several pages back that I'd attempted to get a link to Noel Pearson's address on Radio National where he talked at length about what he feels should and should not happen.  No response from the ABC so far so I've now emailed the Cape York Institute to see if a transcript can be made available.

It was a frank and erudite discussion and the comments by Mr Pearson might really give particularly 2020 some food for thought.

As I suggested earlier, you could both if you wanted to, try to chase it up yourselves.


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## kerosam (28 January 2008)

why don't we start with the do-gooders? like the lawyers. let the parliament start a "Stolen Generation Compo Act" with clauses & conditions that limit these lawyers from sucking our tax payers money to pay to the aboriginals... maybe limiting their fees to a fix sum no matter what circumstances when they represent the aboriginals. upon completion of this Act, the senior elders & federal govt must sign to agree upon the clauses & conditions. If any future generation of aborginials or lawyers, wants further compo, then refer to this Act. then these people can blame their past representatives instead of squeezing the rest of australia for more.   

and we all know the issue with stolen generation is more political than anything else isn;t it?

heading off for my afternnon nap. :


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## 2020hindsight (28 January 2008)

lol - nice attempt at a bit of deflection Brendan - why not let the new team try doing something about the basics (much more than you did by the way) - AND say sorry.

Cartoon below entitled "Back to Basics" .  

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/28/2148042.htm



> Focus on basics instead of saying 'sorry': Nelson
> Posted 2 hours 46 minutes ago
> Updated 1 hour 59 minutes ago
> Federal Opposition leader Brendan Nelson says the Government should focus on the basics instead of considering an apology to Indigenous Australians.
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (28 January 2008)

....


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## 2020hindsight (28 January 2008)

some interesting reading about the recent intervention..

http://www2b.abc.net.au/tmb/Client/Message.aspx?b=70&m=17356&ps=20&dm=1&pd=3


> Miss Trust ( Uni Student)
> I know some of you support the Government’s intervention and perhaps you wonder why indigenous people sound cynical…but alas, indigenous people have the benefit of hindsight.
> 
> From invasion to attempted genocide, from dispossession to segregation, and from the forcible removal of children to cultural genocide, it is fair to say that the Australian authorities haven’t always been terribly concerned about the welfare of indigenous people…after all, some remote communities still live in appalling third world conditions!
> ...




Or this one by Mick Dodson.. 

http://webdiary.com.au/cms/?q=node/2165


> Mick Dodson: the truth under intervention spin
> Last night I attended a large gathering at Canberra's Helen Maxwell Gallery to hear the views of Mick Dodson on the Government's intervention in the Northern Territory. ACT Greens Senate candidate Kerrie Tucker was host. Dodson wasn't too hard on Labor; Rudd had little choice but to tick Howard's box or play into hands just itching to wedge Labor on race.  Still, Rudd's speech on the matter to Parliament gave him room to clean up the mess if he wins office.
> 
> Dodson said that just about every page of the 500 pages of legislation authorising the intervention breaks our obligations under international human rights treaties we've signed up to, particularly the Convention outlawing racial discrimination. Mal Brough (Longman) had admitted he hadn't read  the Sacred Children report which supposedly triggered the intervention, and it was a fair bet he hadn't bothered to read 'his' legislation' either. Indeed, it was probably read only by "those brave souls in the Senate who voted against it," he said, including the Greens.
> ...




This one really interesting as well... (but difficult to cut & paste - hence the brief jpeg extract) 
http://www.womenforwik.org/pdfs/SETTING_THE_AGENDA.pdf


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## Julia (28 January 2008)

skint said:


> The question of compensation is not what whether the money will do any good, but moreover it is whether a person is legally entitled to it.
> For example,if 20/20 gets on "the sauce" and flies his hang-glider through my window, destroying my recently acquired Sydney Nolan (I wish) in the process, I'm entitled to sue for compensation. What I do with that money would be my business. I would be perfectly entitled to blow the whole shebang at the track if so chose. Doesn't alter the right to sue in the first place.
> Fly safe 20/20!



Your analogy with 2020 flying his hang-glider through your window doesn't relate to the question of compensation for the Aborigines.
If he destroys (a) your window, and (b) your Sidney Nolan, then any subsequent action by you is between you and 2020.  Not the taxpayers of Australia.

So I absolutely do not agree that what happens to any compensation which might be paid is irrelevant.  Most Australians are going to be pretty damn unhappy about the thought that their tax dollars are funding more alcoholism, petrol sniffing, and drug addiction, and rightly so.
The current government has, imo, appropriately addressed the question of compensation, saying they believe it is preferable  and far more constructive to put additional funds into resources which will have some chance of redressing some of the huge problems presently existing in the communities.

They have, however, been noticeably silent on just how they propose to do this.

A further point:  I'm really not sure to what extent our above tax dollars should be spent in creating infrastructure in these remote communities.
Let's look at, say, the education of children of our farming families.
Do they expect schools to be established near their remote locations?
Of course not.  They accept without question the need to send their children to boarding school to obtain an education.  Why should it be different for aboriginal children.  I'd be very happy for my tax $ to be spent on subsidising travel and boarding school costs for them.

As long as a section of our population, some ASF members included, persist in ascribing to the Aboriginal population a victim mentality, they will accept and adopt that mentality.  This is simply not what they need to overcome their difficulties.


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## Garpal Gumnut (28 January 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> some interesting reading about the recent intervention..




Yes mate, but if you quote references containing the letters or words "abc" or "womenfor..." its not going to have any credibility with people who make their own minds up on issues like this.

There is such a lack of rigour on the truth, and on quality (Pirsig) in this debate, that many folk steer away from it. 

Poor poor bastards.
Poor children
Poor life
Poverty of leadership is one of the main problems


gg


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## baci (28 January 2008)

IFocus said:


> Hi disarray
> 
> OK see your point but what’s the answer to the current situation with aboriginals?




I agree with disarray.  How come the refugees from all the crap places want to go to the west if its so bad.  

On the aboriginal solution, give Noel Pearson a go and get rid of the aboriginal industry and hangers on!


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## 2020hindsight (29 January 2008)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Yes mate, but if you quote references containing the letters or words "abc" or "womenfor..." its not going to have any credibility with people who make their own minds up on issues like this.
> 
> There is such a lack of rigour on the truth, and on quality (Pirsig) in this debate, that many folk steer away from it.
> 
> ...



gg - if you're gonna label ALL abc as biassed, wow
you prefer ?? to abc?  kkk lol? 

to be honest that first link is just some uni student making some points - still they are in sync whith the third link which is based on Bennelong Society published reports.  - feel free to check out Bennolong reports etc - conservative think tank etc.

How about Al Jazerrah?  - lot of people out there refuse to believe anything in the western press any more "unless it's on Al Jazerrah, it has spin" sort of thing.  

Speaking of which, here's an Al Jazerrah (101 East) report on the INtervention - early days thereof - spread over two youtubes. It is extremely fair - only problem in my books is that things didn't pan out as they say here, and damn all child molestation cases/charges resulting therefrom etc (although the govt happily took away the land and preferred "paternally dictating to" instead of "working with" etc.  - and stealing cops from NSW and Qld Ab communities, just because the Fed and Territory govts had failed in NT!  As if we could afford to spare any.  For another day. 

Julia, you will enjoy the lady in the second youtube who is at the coalface. - skip the first one if you don't want to see responsible Abs complaining they are being ignored 

 101 East- Aboriginal child abuse controversy- 12Jul07-Part 1 

 101 East- Aboriginal child abuse controversy- 12Jul07 Part 2


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## sam76 (29 January 2008)

taken from news.com.au re: "Sorry"

Yet more populist drivel from Krudd. I almost fell off my chair laughing when I heard him say there will be no compensation. This should be the defining moment of his career in displaying his utter incompetence, ignorance and arrogance. Anyone believing that there will be no compensation is deluding themselves, and the lawyers are salivating at the prospect of class actions and suits. Maybe this is Krudds way of stimulating the economy. Sorry to you diehards, but Kevin07 has done nothing to impress, just espouse more hot air and rhetoric by repackaging already existing policy and claiming as his own. Now lets all see the applications before the high court after Mc Sorry day and then we can join the chorus "Kevin07, Recession08". 
Posted by: Blampa of Springfield 9:21am today 
Comment 48 of 48


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## skint (29 January 2008)

Julia said:


> 1) Your analogy with 2020 flying his hang-glider through your window doesn't relate to the question of compensation for the Aborigines.
> If he destroys (a) your window, and (b) your Sidney Nolan, then any subsequent action by you is between you and 2020.  Not the taxpayers of Australia.
> 
> 2) So I absolutely do not agree that what happens to any compensation which might be paid is irrelevant.  Most Australians are going to be pretty damn unhappy about the thought that their tax dollars are funding more alcoholism, petrol sniffing, and drug addiction, and rightly so.




1) The plaintiffs in this instance are indigenous people taken from their homes and families. The defendant is the current Australian government. The Australian government is the legally responsible party for current and past governmental failings and transgressions. These cases are no different to governments being accountable in many ways including, for example, gross negligence in Health. I'm sure you can think of a swag of cases whereby governments have been held to account. 
Having your kid taken away because of their skin colour (and skin colour alone) is not just negligent, its criminal. Its a sad day indeed when kidnapping is dismissed as 'policy of the day'. Try and imagine someone barging into your childhood home when you were young, and throwing you into the back of a vehicle, placing you in an institution, and more than likely never being able to see your family again. That may sound like emotive language, but that's pretty much how these events occured. I agree, the taxpayers in these situations are right to be aggrieved. The governments of the day acted appallingly, and now we're picking up the tab. Moral of the story? Be careful who you vote for.

2) Comments such as "Australians are going to be pretty damn unhappy about the thought that their tax dollars are (going to be: sic) funding more alcoholism, petrol sniffing, and drug addiction" are redneck, ill-informed and unproductive ravings. They assume , for a start, that Aborigines are an homogenous mob. Obviously, substance dependence is a large problem for indigenous people as a group. However, even if we inflate the figures to 50% dependence, that leaves an enormous number of people that have been tainted with your brush. I wonder how the problems started?


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## Julia (29 January 2008)

skint said:


> 1) The plaintiffs in this instance are indigenous people taken from their homes and families. The defendant is the current Australian government. The Australian government is the legally responsible party for current and past governmental failings and transgressions. These cases are no different to governments being accountable in many ways including, for example, gross negligence in Health. I'm sure you can think of a swag of cases whereby governments have been held to account.
> Having your kid taken away because of their skin colour (and skin colour alone) is not just negligent, its criminal. Its a sad day indeed when kidnapping is dismissed as 'policy of the day'. Try and imagine someone barging into your childhood home when you were young, and throwing you into the back of a vehicle, placing you in an institution, and more than likely never being able to see your family again. That may sound like emotive language, but that's pretty much how these events occured. I agree, the taxpayers in these situations are right to be aggrieved. The governments of the day acted appallingly, and now we're picking up the tab. Moral of the story? Be careful who you vote for.
> 
> 2) Comments such as "Australians are going to be pretty damn unhappy about the thought that their tax dollars are (going to be: sic) funding more alcoholism, petrol sniffing, and drug addiction" are redneck, ill-informed and unproductive ravings. They assume , for a start, that Aborigines are an homogenous mob. Obviously, substance dependence is a large problem for indigenous people as a group. However, even if we inflate the figures to 50% dependence, that leaves an enormous number of people that have been tainted with your brush. I wonder how the problems started?



You are being very selective in what you quote from what I have said.
If you are being unreasonably emotive in presenting your view, and I am over-generalising, then I guess we are about even, huh.
Don't see any point in persisting with this argument.  
I will just reiterate that I would be very unhappy to see cash payments being made.  I have, however, already said (which you chose to leave out) that I'd be very happy to subsidise costs for education, boarding school, travel etc.
Ditto for health care.

Skint, you should leave insults out of this.  Because you disagree with something I have said, you have no cause to describe me as rednecked.
I have not at any stage directed any personal insults towards you or anyone else on this forum with whom I have disagreed.   It's a poor debater who feels the need to attack the person rather than the argument.


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## bunyip (30 January 2008)

skint said:


> Talk about a rose-coloured glasses view of history. Manning Clark, eat your heart out! For example, many of the children were placed in orphanages and treated hideously. I had an aboriginal friend who was removed from here mother without consent. In her adoptive white family, she was repeatedly raped as a young girl and also physically abused. Was she better off? As a young bloke, I lived in the Territory and spent some time working as a jackeroo with many Aborigines. They were very much considered to be second class citizens. You don't fix a community by further dividing it.





I feel truly sorry for your aboriginal friend who was subjected to sexual and physical abuse at the hands of her adoptive white family.
But your question of "Was she better off"?, seems to suggest that she would have been spared this kind of treatment if she was left with her aboriginal family. Maybe she would have been, but then on the other hand, maybe not. Sexual assault, alcoholism,  substance addiction, violence etc wasn't as widely documented back then in aboriginal communities as it is now, but it existed, nevertheless.
In white society she received benefits she wouldn't have had if she'd stayed with her aboriginal community - education being one of those benefits. 
The same goes for the kids you mentioned who were mistreated in orphanages. Yes, orphanages of that era handed out some pretty harsh treatment to children, no question about it, most notorious among them being those run by Catholic nuns and priests. Floggings for the slightest misdemeanour, even sexual assault in some cases, and little if any traces of love and affection and understanding. Black or white, it didn't matter, if you were a kid in an orphanage back in those days then chances are that you did it hard.
But the kids in aboriginal communities did it hard too, and were and still are subject to all manner of hideous treatment. One of the differences between aboriginal community kids and orphanage kids is that the orphanage kids received healthcare and education, were clothed and fed properly, and were generally prepared for life in the broader community. The same can't be said for the kids in aboriginal communities.

As Julia has pointed out,  Noel Pearson, himself an aboriginal,  has stated that the now adults who were removed as children have by and large grown into responsible adults with a sound work ethic.

Skint, you've stated that "You don't fix a community by further dividing it." Well on that point at least, I agree with you. But was that the objective of the relocation policy, were they really trying to 'fix a community'? I don't believe so. As I see it they were just trying to get kids out of a situation that was considered unsatisfactory by the government, and place them in a different environment to hopefully give them better chances of leading worthwhile lives. The policy was never an attempt to tackle the underlying problems of these communities.
Right now in this country we have a similar policy in operation that removes kids from family environments that are considered by the authorities to be unsuitable for children. And where do the authorities place these kids? Why, they're placed with foster families and adoptive parents, just like many of those half caste kids back in the stolen generation days. Some would say that these kids are 'kidnapped', since they're removed from their families against their parents will in most cases, forcibly if necessary. 
Now, is this really such a bad thing, to take a child out of an unsatisfactory situation and place him or her in what is considered a better situation so that he or she has some reasonable chances of a decent upbringing. I don't hear any complaints about it from the general community.
Example......... A couple I know, unable to conceive a child of their own, adopted a baby boy from Ethiopia, and two years later, another boy, this time a white Australian. The little Australian boy was 18 months old when they adopted him, and had already been in hospital four times with broken bones as a result of violence from his parents, both of whom were alcoholics and junkies.
Only a lunatic would suggest that this child was 'kidnapped', that it was outrageous, wrong, immoral, to remove him from that abusive environment and place him instead with people who would look after him and care for him properly.
Did the removal of that little boy 'further divide' his family? Too right it did -  all of a sudden the family is broken up, the parents are childless, and they probably won't see their child again. Did the removal of that child fix the problems of that family? Not a chance.....nor was it intended to. The focus was, quite rightly, on the needs of the child, not on the problems of his family. Just as it was in the stolen generation issue.
Did the removal of that little boy, and his placement with his new family, fix his problems and give him a chance for a better life. Yes of course it did. And what will the end result be? Unknown at this stage, but quite likely the kid will turn out OK and will take his place as a productive and decent member of society, just as most of the stolen generation have turned out OK and have become responsible people.
What would the boys future have been if he'd been left with his violent, drunken, drug-soaked parents? Almost certainly, he'd have turned out the same way himself.
What would the future of those removed aboriginal children have been if they were left with their impoverished, uneducated, and in some cases violent and drunken communities. Almost certainly, they'd have turned out the same way themselves.
How would it go down these days if community services or whichever government department is responsible for looking after the best interests of children, were to step in and remove some of those children from aboriginal communities where problems are rife and kids are really suffering, and place them in foster care with carefully screened and selected foster families? Not necessarily white families either, they could be Indian or Chinese or pretty much any race as long as they were decent people who embraced Australian values. 
How do you think that would be received?
I'd suggest there would be public outcry. Yet, pretty much the same thing is happening throughout society wherever kids are getting beating, abused, raped, neglected etc, and the public embrace it as sensible policy, which I believe it is.


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## Julia (2 February 2008)

Here is one of Noel Pearson's comments about welfare.  These remarks can, imo, be equally applied to black and white in many instances.
..................................................................................................
When welfare is a curse
By Noel Pearson
The Age 23 April 2004

Centrelink is a major contributor to the drug problems of Aborigines.

Bob Collins, the co-ordinator appointed by the Rann Labor Government in South Australia to tackle the problems in the Anangu Pitjantjatjara Lands, has cut to the chase: automatic and unconditional welfare payments must end to encourage young indigenous people to seek work.

Rather than just alluding to problems of "welfare dependency", "boredom", "hopelessness" and so on, Collins says unconditional welfare payments are a problem "that's got to be addressed at the Commonwealth level". 

That is, we can't just all agree that passive welfare is a problem, we have to do something about it.

John Howard and Mark Latham: you know Collins is right. Your challenge is to decide how this piece of public policy is to be structured. 

We can keep talking about welfare reform, but the time for reform that will turn around the social disaster in remote Aboriginal communities is now.

We will not get on top of the serious problem of substance abuse without confronting the issue of unconditional payments to able-bodied people.

The measures taken by Peter Beattie in Queensland to limit the supply of alcohol are a necessary part of the solution. Beattie has had the courage to tackle the hard question that is within the state's policy domain. 

But if we don't tackle unconditional money supply, our progress will stall.

Money to purchase grog and drugs, and idle time to use them, are the key factors that must be confronted, in addition to supply. This is the Commonwealth's policy domain.

A host of counter-arguments will be immediately raised against Collins's bottom line, such as the lack of jobs in remote areas.

Yet in most remote communities there are scores of jobs manned by non-indigenous people, many of them not requiring particular expertise or expertise that could not be readily attained by local people.

How is it that we are unable to convert the more than $2 billion allocated by the Commonwealth to indigenous programmes into jobs performed by indigenous people?

The answer is that there is no firm bottom line in the welfare system that young indigenous people enter as they approach adulthood. As long as that system does not say "there is no alternative to work, education and training", all the youth programs and interventions will come to very little.

There needs to be both help and hassle.

At present the welfare system provides unconditional income support to young people once they leave school. It immediately provides an easy option to young people: you don't have to undertake further education or gain skills or work, because you will receive an income regardless. 

This path of least resistance becomes the road well-travelled. Young people have free money to purchase grog, cannabis and other substances. They soon become addicted. Thereafter the welfare system pays for their addiction.

A major contributor to the weekly drug habits of young Australians is Centrelink.

This may be an outrageous thing to say, but it is the truth.

If we want to ameliorate the tragic situation that Bob Collins is talking about in remote indigenous communities, then we have to end unconditional welfare payments.

The Federal Government has talked the talk on welfare reform, and a program was devised around "Community Participation Agreements", but nothing has emerged after four years. I do not know of one CPA being implemented in any community across the country.

The Commonwealth Department of Family and Community Services has given us strong support on the help side of income-support reform. It has worked with us, in partnership with the Westpac Bank, to implement Family Income Management facilities for families to budget their income.

But another reform on the hassle side of income support, which we in Cape York Peninsula have attempted to pursue, has gone nowhere. Too many of the "mutual obligation" and "shared responsibility" policies skirt around the real needs, and the mainstream bureaucracies end up putting off reform for another day.

Bob Collins's suggestions appear self-evident against the background of social collapse in central Australia. Unfortunately, indigenous welfare reform is hostage to the lack of progress in mainstream welfare reform.

But if Australia is truly empathetic to the waste and suffering of young indigenous people, and of those who love them, then we must take Bob Collins's plain advice as the starting point.

Noel Pearson is director of the Cape York Institute for Policy and Leadership, a joint initiative of Griffith University and regional organisations in Cape York Peninsula.


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## bunyip (2 February 2008)

Julia said:


> Here is one of Noel Pearson's comments about welfare.  These remarks can, imo, be equally applied to black and white in many instances.
> ..................................................................................................
> When welfare is a curse
> By Noel Pearson
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (2 February 2008)

Julia said:


> Here is one of Noel Pearson's comments about welfare.  These remarks can, imo, be equally applied to black and white in many instances.
> ..................................................................................................
> When welfare is a curse
> By Noel Pearson
> ...



Sure ,This speech is typical of almost all of his speeches as discussed previously.  Passive Welfare is a negative (hence get em jobs - not like Brough did recently taking away the few jobs they did have in some areas)

http://www.cyi.org.au/speeches.aspx

by the way , I doubt that Noel P would be quoting Bob Collins these days - since he died in controversial circumstances under a cloud of sexual abuse charges. 



> http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...ob-collins-dies/2007/09/21/1189881731099.html
> Former Northern Territory senator and federal Labor minister Bob Collins has died at the age of 61, just days before he was due to face court on child sex abuse charges.




btw also , this is one of tfhe few if not the only reference he makes to stolen generation in all those speeches...
http://www.cyi.org.au/speeches.aspx



> Dr Charles Perkins Memorial Oration
> ON THE HUMAN RIGHT TO MISERY, MASS INCARCERATION AND EARLY DEATH
> Noel Pearson, McLaurin Hall, The University of Sydney, 25 October 2001
> 
> When Aden Ridgeway was asked by the Sydney Morning Herald about the most important issues in what is commonly referred to as "reconciliation", he answered mandatory sentencing, deaths in custody and the stolen generation.  These are a correct identification of the end results of bad policy, but with respect, these are not the issues of the most strategic importance for handling our current disaster.  We must instead face passive welfare and substance abuse epidemics as the critical issues – because it is these problems which cause Aboriginal people to enter the criminal justice system and which produce even more damaged generations of Aboriginal people.  It is unfortunate that these end result issues become the predominant policy diversions and attract our quasiradical attentions and energies.




He's also happy to be controversial


> Hopevale Speech: Friday 12th May
> Signing of Agreement between Commonwealth Minister for Indigenous Affairs Mal Brough and Hopevale Community Council.
> 
> “Thank you very much to the traditional owners for welcoming us here.  I am in the controversy business, unfortunately.  It would be so much easier not to be in the controversy business.  I could only take on those things and say those things and only argue those things that people readily support, and I have done that in my time.  If I were here to say that Aboriginal people should be free from discrimination, we would all support that, there would be no controversy.  If I were here to say that Aboriginal people should have their land and be respected in relation to their land, there would be little controversy.  If I were here to say that Aboriginal people should recover the wages stolen from them by Government, there would be no controversy.  If I were here to say that Aboriginal people’s rights and entitlements should be respected by government, there’d be no argument.  I’d be a hero.  People would pat me on the back, and I’ve had many pats on the back for doing those very things.
> ...




But in summary I think he'd be happy if both Stolen Generation AND the Ab conditions were addressed. 

Also mentioned on Pearson’s website (Cape York Institute for Policy and Leadership)  is a school project:-  

I like those phrases / points :-
*"be driven by principle, remember that it is not who is right, but what is right" 
"Admit error quickly"
"Practice empathy"
"Be committed to your responsibilities"*

Sounds like we could all take his advice, blacks and whites, if you ask me.


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## 2020hindsight (2 February 2008)

btw , that powerpoint presentation ends with a photo of Tania Major with some of the kids  

Speaking of (young) Aussie of the Year. (2007) 

PS obviously this is atypical of the entire continent.

How about we tackle BOTH the conditions and some of the causes?  Even Noel Pearson (who may not necessarily answer for Abs in Redfern or NT or Bangerup or Pilbara etc ) might agree that it isn’t so silly to treat (one of the) causes as well as the symptoms.


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## Wysiwyg (26 December 2016)

First of all I'd like to say I love the true Aboriginal and would not harm them in any way but I am wondering about the "default" to Aboriginal by Caucasian mixes who then go on to claim invasion by Europeans. I want Aboriginal people to have the opportunity to move forward with the rest of the human beings on this planet. No one "owns" Australia, we live here and we want to live together with good people.


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