# Property investment issues



## VeryGreen (8 April 2013)

Hello everyone!

I don't want to re-kindle the old property vs shares fire so please, no "you should have stayed away from property" posts. I'm actually just wanting to share an experience I am going through and if anyone has any ideas on avenu's I should explore then perhaps they could point me in the right direction.

Basically, I have a house I live in and an investment property. It's helping me reduce my taxable income and as a result I am paying off my living quarters faster. I'm 32 years old and if I keep on my current path I will have it paid off before 40 so I am quite pleased with that.

So since 2008 I have had a nice lady in the house, with 3 kids. The situation has been mutially benificial and we have both been happy since then. I have not increased the rent at all, and I don't do rental inspections. Rather, I just pop in when there is a maintanence request or what ever. She keeps the place really well and the gardens actually look better now than when she first moved in.

Just recently in the last 10 months or so, its become painfully obvious that the neighboring house is owned by the housing department. We know this because they have moved in a nice family who have anounced their arival on the street by doing burn outs down the road, driving through a neighbors manicured front garden and fence, throwing beer bottles over the fence into my yard, lighting a fire on the boundry fence that required the fire brigade, shouting and fighting constantly, parties to all hours on week days, trying to gain access to the property while my tenant was home, intimidating her at her front door, and the last and final straw for my tenant.... telling her they were going to get a knife and cut up her pups (refering to her children). Being a single mother of 3, she has no way of defending herself and has made the decision not to sign the next lease. 

She is leaving on Saturday.

So various complaints have been made by my tenant, myself, and the neighbors regading these incidents but in each case the housing department backs the tenants. Claiming that none of these are substantiated claims. Furthermore, my tenant spoke to the supervisor above the case worker who turned around and said "there is no way in the world we are moving these people out". I've emailed the housing department and offered to go into some form of mediation with their tenant and the case worker at both of their conviniences but have not had a reply.

I am not sure where this leaves me, but I'm going to be out of pocket now. I won't be able to get as much rent as I could get for this property and the value of the house has been servearly impacted.

So for anyone thinking of buying an investment property, jump on RPDATA and view the sales history of each house around your potential investment. Make sure that the housing department is not listed as the owner. As a matter of fact, I would check all of the houses in the street. They have the power to cost you a lot of money with one bad decision.


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## Klogg (8 April 2013)

@VeryGreen - if you can't beat em, join em...

See if the Office of Housing (area within the Dept of Human Services) is interested in leasing out your place too. They generally pay a little under market rate, but will replace all areas of the house that are damaged AND replace any kitchens/bathrooms every 7 years, regardless of their state.

I know you weren't really looking for suggestions, but I couldn't help myself... :


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## VeryGreen (8 April 2013)

Klogg said:


> @VeryGreen - if you can't beat em, join em...
> 
> See if the Office of Housing (area within the Dept of Human Services) is interested in leasing out your place too. They generally pay a little under market rate, but will replace all areas of the house that are damaged AND replace any kitchens/bathrooms every 7 years, regardless of their state.
> 
> I know you weren't really looking for suggestions, but I couldn't help myself... :




Its not a bad suggestion 

I might enquire about it. I've already harrassed them quite a bit over the property. It might be the easiest way for them to get me to shut up


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## skc (8 April 2013)

That's shocking to hear and thanks for sharing. There are risks to the property game that one doesn't necessarily think about.

One suggestion is to move in their yourself for a couple of weeks and try to record these anti-social behaviour (while minding your own saftey of course). That way at least the housing department can no long use "unsubstantiated claims" as an excuse.

I also like Klogg's idea but I think you might rather not have the house trashed.


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## McLovin (8 April 2013)

skc said:


> That's shocking to hear and thanks for sharing. There are risks to the property game that one doesn't necessarily think about.




If I'm to  believe _A Current Affair_ the only thing more dangerous than boat people stealing jobs and gypsies doing shoddy asphalting on pensioner's driveways are "tenants from hell".


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## sptrawler (8 April 2013)

Check out if you local security company has any suggestions.


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## qldfrog (9 April 2013)

sptrawler said:


> Check out if you local security company has any suggestions.



you mean the ones with the leather jackets with skuls logos and big motorbikes?
just asking, not suggesting, of cause...


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## Izabarack (9 April 2013)

qldfrog said:


> you mean the ones with the leather jackets with skuls logos and big motorbikes?
> ...



Aren't they living next door already?


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## VeryGreen (9 April 2013)

Izabarack said:


> Aren't they living next door already?




All I can say is this.

I'm 32 years old and have a duel trade under my belt. Electrical and instrumentation. Currently I am in a role which I beat 5 engineers for. There were 6 engineers and the job went to one, but he knocked it back to go work in the mines. I still beat 5 though which I am very proude of as I am not university educated. However, I've made it my thing to study electrical control systems and I was able to impress in my interview. It was the first interview I have ever had where they throw technical questions at you, and even P&ID drawings with errors. 

I've got over 10 years mining and heavy industrial experience and have worked bloody hard to get where I am. Part of that 10 years was a 4 year apprenticeship. I've got 5 year and 10 year plans in place but as I tell my wife, they are dynamic and moving targets which I never expect to get to because as life roles on I change my goals. They just give me an aim and a direction.

I am also decendant from Gija (Kija) people of the east kimberly with marage ties to Bardi of broome area. I am a proud person who has always tried to take the negative comments about my people and use them to fuel my internal fire which has allowed me to take leaps and bounds in my chosen field. I've been out of my time for just over 2 years and in that time I've managed to gain respect as an electrical/instrumentation/control guru. I remember being told as an apprentice that perhaps I should think about becoming a fitter as the electrical trade has a lot of maths and engineering aspects that I might struggle with. This comment was followed by "We're just concerned that you'll do 2 years and then find its too hard for you and quit. We're just trying to help". Some might see that as a harmless comment, others will recognise the racial undertones of that one. I had only just met these guys... That fuel was enough to keep the fire burning for 4 years. I studied hard and was not only runner up BHP apprentice of the year 2 years in a row, I was also runner up challanger tafe apprentice of the year. I became the go to man and can think of many occasions where tradesmen with 20+ years experience have been working in a group to get something going, only to have the 3rd year apprentice point out what the issue was (after letting them fault find for half a shift).

So what does this have to do with my disruptive neighbours? 

Some of my people lose control of that internal fire. Sometimes it consumes them and everything else in its path.


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## ftw129 (9 April 2013)

Klogg said:


> @VeryGreen - if you can't beat em, join em...
> 
> See if the Office of Housing (area within the Dept of Human Services) is interested in leasing out your place too. They generally pay a little under market rate, but will replace all areas of the house that are damaged AND replace any kitchens/bathrooms every 7 years, regardless of their state.
> 
> I know you weren't really looking for suggestions, but I couldn't help myself... :




VeryGreen,

I took a long time last night thinking about your situation, in the hope of being able to come up with a helpful suggestion for you as I can't imagine how frustrating this must be. I truly feel for you mate.

Apart from the suggestion above, which has a few implications in itself, all I can imagine I would do is to seek some good legal advice. 

I hope that helps and I wish you the best of luck with the outcome. Keep us posted so that others can learn from this aweful situation should it happen to them


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## VeryGreen (9 April 2013)

ftw129 said:


> VeryGreen,
> 
> I took a long time last night thinking about your situation, in the hope of being able to come up with a helpful suggestion for you as I can't imagine how frustrating this must be. I truly feel for you mate.
> 
> ...




Thanks ftw!

I apreaciate the suggestion as well. After reading that post I was straight onto the housing departments web site to see if I could find anything about how to apply to rent your house out to them. It also got me thinking, what other organisations would want houses? Best I could come up with was the immergration department. I think they run a programe where those that have been granted stay in Australia are put into a temporary house and helped for a bit until they get use to the Aussie way. All I could find though was some village they had created that was suburb like... but it was still a form of detention. I was hoping to find some kind of half way house arangement.

I might even contact the lady I was lodging complaints with and ask her if she wants to rent my house, this time though I will mean it... I did ask her out of sarcasm if she wanted to move into it when my tennant vacated, probably didnt help the cause.

_***Edited grammar error... I wont make a habbit of it though or I'll be here 24/7_


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## againsthegrain (9 April 2013)

VeryGreen said:


> Thanks ftw!
> 
> I apreaciate the suggestion as well. After reading that post I was straight onto the housing departments web site to see if I could find anything about how to apply to rent your house out to them. It also got me thinking, what other organisations would want houses? Best I could come up with was the immergration department. I think they run a programe where those that have been granted stay in Australia are put into a temporary house and helped for a bit until they get use to the Aussie way. All I could find though was some village they had created that was suburb like... but it was still a form of detention. I was hoping to find some kind of half way house arangement.
> 
> ...





Time to sell and buy the neighbours a slab on inspection day to keep things nice


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## VeryGreen (9 April 2013)

againsthegrain said:


> Time to sell and buy the neighbours a slab on inspection day to keep things nice




I don't think adding fuel to the fire would be wise. It might all be gone by 10am.


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## cutz (9 April 2013)

Unfortunately VGreen no easy solutions here mate, you probably don't want to sell for obvious reasons so you are left with no other choice but to find a new tenant, or perhaps even moving in yourself and renting out the joint you're currently living in, obviously this will affect CGT  arrangements in the event of a sale and whatever gearing arrangements you now have in place, best to get professional advice.

BTW. What are P&ID drawings ?


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## CanOz (9 April 2013)

P&ID = Piping and Instrumentation Drawings


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## cutz (9 April 2013)

CanOz said:


> P&ID = Piping and Instrumentation Drawings




Gotcha CanOz, 

I know drawings but never heard of that acronym.


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## CanOz (9 April 2013)

If you can program, as i assume Green can, you're worth your weight in gold.


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## FlyingFox (10 April 2013)

CanOz said:


> If you can program, as i assume Green can, you're worth your weight in gold.




General computer programming? Why is that?


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## VeryGreen (10 April 2013)

cutz said:


> Unfortunately VGreen no easy solutions here mate, you probably don't want to sell for obvious reasons so you are left with no other choice but to find a new tenant, or perhaps even moving in yourself and renting out the joint you're currently living in, obviously this will affect CGT  arrangements in the event of a sale and whatever gearing arrangements you now have in place, best to get professional advice.
> 
> BTW. What are P&ID drawings ?




Yeah, the place I live in is a bit of a hole. It's 50+ years old and there is white ant damage in the floor boards. Roof leaks... holes in the roof. The other place is a gem. I kind of figured it was a good idea to stay in the hole, rent out the other one.

This place... I had plans to knock it down and build a huge place to live in. I invisioned staying here for quite some time. Plans change though. The block is 905sqm and is subdividable into two. I've heard of some rumours about them rezoning it again but not sure if that would allow me a 3rd one... would be pretty bloody small units. Doing the math, with what I owe currently and my repayments, if I was to cut into 3 and build units at $190k each (expensive units) I would only need rent of $300pw to cover all repayments including what I currently owe. I figure I can build for way less than 190 and get a bit more than $300 but I was trying to give myself somewhere between worse case, and about right.

Sorry for bringing property investing into a shares forum.  I really am here to learn about shares, wanting to diversify myself a little. Maybe if I can split into two or three I can sell one and use money to invest in shares once I know a little bit about it.

The block is nicely located, >$20 cab fair to the airport. about 10 houses down the street and across the road is a brand new shopping center with a nice tavern, butcher, coles, hair dressers, news agency, bendigo bank, chicken treat, maccas, bottlo, TAB, post office yada yada yada. I think some new units in this local would be easy to fill.

P&ID = Piping and instrument diagram. Sometimes PID is used in terms of Proportional Intergral and Derivitive and is represented in a diagram too to show control loops etc.


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## VeryGreen (10 April 2013)

haha I had a reply half typed then went had a shower etc...

I finished it off and pressed post and you guys already had it covered.

Not real programing. Just PLC's Scada RTU's etc. Anyone with half a brain can teach themselves that. Real programming though, I have respect for those guys. I've never had enought time to sit down and learn anything substantial like C. Although I am wanting to teach myself asm at some point, just to program pic controllers for a few side projects I've got in mind.


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## FlyingFox (10 April 2013)

VeryGreen said:


> Not real programing. Just PLC's Scada RTU's etc. Anyone with half a brain can teach themselves that. Real programming though, I have respect for those guys. I've never had enought time to sit down and learn anything substantial like C. Although I am wanting to teach myself asm at some point, just to program pic controllers for a few side projects I've got in mind.




Fair enough. don't know what Scada is. Real programming...that depends on who you ask lol. C is good if you plan to do real time or micro controller stuff. Otherwise C++. 

you can program pic's with C. might be worth the effort so you don't need to learn different asm's.


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## VeryGreen (10 April 2013)

Yeah I did see that, about programing them in c.

I figure though if its simple things I want to do I couldnt go wrong with asm, but like you said different versions. I think I read the pic's differ a fair bit from the avr's. Something about not having to pop data on/off the stack to manipulate it with the avr's. I forget and am probably way off.

I just managed to score some really good microcontroller books off the graduate engineers at work and they start off with asm so thought for me it would be a good starting point.

More complex things its probably easier to follow what your doing with a slightly higher level language.


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## Julia (10 April 2013)

Very Green, would it be worth trying mediation - usually offered at no cost to either party via your local Justice Department?  There is a very high success rate when both parties are prepared to attend, but attendance is voluntary.  

If you contact your local Dispute Resolution Service with a description of the problem, they will follow through from there.  Best of luck.  It's a horrible situation.


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## CanOz (10 April 2013)

FlyingFox said:


> Fair enough. don't know what Scada is. Real programming...that depends on who you ask lol. C is good if you plan to do real time or micro controller stuff. Otherwise C++.
> 
> you can program pic's with C. might be worth the effort so you don't need to learn different asm's.




Actually i was referring to PLC & SCADA. There might be plenty of self taught programmers, or even trained programmers...but a good programmer is able to develop the logic LOGICALLY. Trust me, as someone that has commissioned three or four process lines with guys from all over the globe, there is a big difference. Some guys have a natural talent for this. 

They can virtually name their price in manufacturing circles.

Hope your one of them VG, i always envied those guys!

CanOz


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## VeryGreen (10 April 2013)

Julia said:


> Very Green, would it be worth trying mediation - usually offered at no cost to either party via your local Justice Department?  There is a very high success rate when both parties are prepared to attend, but attendance is voluntary.
> 
> If you contact your local Dispute Resolution Service with a description of the problem, they will follow through from there.  Best of luck.  It's a horrible situation.




Hi Julia!

Thanks for dropping in with that good bit of advice. Its funny you should mention that becaue I offered to enter mediation with the tenant and the housing department at a neutral place (their office I sugested). It was almost a week with out a reply and I sent them a follow up email saying that my tenant will be vacating on Saturday and where does this leave me? I also highlighted the fact that I had not heard back from them regarding mediation.

I just got home from work and recieved and had an email in my inbox.



> "Please accept my apologies in relation to the delay in response, I have been looking into your request for mediation. Mediation has been offered to the tenants of ** ***** Rd, and ** ******* Rd ************. However the tenant is under no obligation to accept, all parties including your tenants will have to be in agreement.  Once the tenants at the above address have advised the Department of their decision to participate or not the Department will advise you and provide updated information. "




I replied to the lady I have been speaking to, informing her that I will offer mediation to my tenant as well but I am pretty sure the responce will be an emphatic NO. She has already made the decision not to resign the lease and will be out by Saturday lunch. I also included a query relating to Klogg's suggestion. I asked if she knew if there was any application process to lease my property to the housing department or the immergration department.

As I have been doing with every email I send or respond to, I CC'ed in the minister for housing. Not that he has had anything to say about it, but at least its a record of complaints incase I need them in the future.

---------------------------------
It has also been pointed out to me via a private message that I may have come across as a little defensive with regards to my post about being Aboriginal and the things I have been trying to acheive in life etc. By no means did I mean it to sound that way. I was just sensing the opening for some cheap comical gags regarding housing department tenants and was just trying to politely make it known to everyone that I am infact Aboriginal and just like any other race on the planet we have those that swim with the current and those that swim against it. My apologies if it sounded like I was insinuating racial prejudice via my comments. It was actually just me rambling on, and on, and on.. and we ended up at my passion which is control systems. 

I just want to thank everyone for their kind words of wisdom and support while I work my way through this issue and I will definately keep you all posted on the outcome. With any luck someone in my same position will surf past oneday when this thread is dead and burried and the advice given may help them come to a solution.

Cheers!

_***Edit*** I don't know if I mentioned... The situation is the house next door which is a corner block. The house behind that one is also occupied by housing department tenants. Two different families that get on so famously they kicked over the dividing fence so they could just wonder between houses  That is why there are two addresses mentioned in the email from the housing department._


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## Julia (10 April 2013)

VeryGreen said:


> Hi Julia!
> 
> Thanks for dropping in with that good bit of advice. Its funny you should mention that becaue I offered to enter mediation with the tenant and the housing department at a neutral place (their office I sugested). It was almost a week with out a reply and I sent them a follow up email saying that my tenant will be vacating on Saturday and where does this leave me? I also highlighted the fact that I had not heard back from them regarding mediation.
> 
> I just got home from work and recieved and had an email in my inbox.



Glad to know it's something you'd already thought of.  A long shot, however, given all the circumstances, I guess.
---------------------------------


> It has also been pointed out to me via a private message that I may have come across as a little defensive with regards to my post about being Aboriginal and the things I have been trying to acheive in life etc. By no means did I mean it to sound that way. I was just sensing the opening for some cheap comical gags regarding housing department tenants and was just trying to politely make it known to everyone that I am infact Aboriginal and just like any other race on the planet we have those that swim with the current and those that swim against it. My apologies if it sounded like I was insinuating racial prejudice via my comments. It was actually just me rambling on, and on, and on.. and we ended up at my passion which is control systems.



FWIW you came across to me as anything but defensive, rather absolutely sensible and reasonable.
I just really feel for you in such a crappy situation where all the power always seems to rest with the tenant, regardless of their behaviour.
Best of luck.


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