# Sick of traders keeping prices low



## NewTrade (26 August 2011)

I know I've mentioned this before, but I am just sick and tired of this trade practice.

Every time the price goes up, some trader flicks off a parcel to bring the price back down. This automatic flicking is getting really annoying because it not only keeps the price down in the red, but is effecting the charts with an abnormal pattern. The parcels are always small - and the dishonesty is frustrating.

Watching some idiot sell into himself with small parcels to coerce others to sell into his bids is just plain annoying. It seems to stand out when dealing with small caps.


----------



## tech/a (26 August 2011)

Im afraid your dealing with something which isnt as Sinister as you "imagine"

*IF* there is serious demand for an instrument "Small Parcels" wont stop it belting up.

The stock you are trading are *NOT* in *DEMAND*.

Now calm down take a valium and the guys in the Black suits and Aviator sunnies will be around shortly.


----------



## NewTrade (26 August 2011)

tech/a said:


> Im afraid your dealing with something which isnt as Sinister as you "imagine"
> 
> *IF* there is serious demand for an instrument "Small Parcels" wont stop it belting up.
> 
> ...




The stock in question HAS DEMAND.

I am watching some fool sell into himself.

Throwing off everything that does not meet your benchmark of abnormality does not qualify you to give sarcastic remarsk insinuating that I am some sort of paranoid schitzophrenic - you are a rather insulting individual.


----------



## nomore4s (26 August 2011)

Yeah you're right, it is these "idiots" who are keeping the price in the red, couldn't possibly be any other factor.

And why is it dishonest? Last time I checked you were allowed to sell parcels of any size you wanted, without declaring it to the world.

Maybe instead of watching every single trade on a stock you just let the price action play out over a given number of days/weeks/months or whatever your time-frame is.

If someone is really trying to coerce people into sell maybe you should view it as a sign of strength and sit back and wait for the inevitable price rise, if of course that is really what is happening. 

And just lmao off at "is effecting the charts with an abnormal pattern" - what exactly is an abnormal chart pattern? In other words a chart that doesn't conform to your view of the stock.

It is a part of the market, get used to it. I love how people complain about stuff like this but it's okay when the same traders push the price through the roof.


----------



## skc (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> I know I've mentioned this before, but I am just sick and tired of this trade practice.
> 
> Every time the price goes up, some trader flicks off a parcel to bring the price back down. This automatic flicking is getting really annoying because it not only keeps the price down in the red, but is effecting the charts with an abnormal pattern. The parcels are always small - and the dishonesty is frustrating.
> 
> Watching some idiot sell into himself with small parcels to coerce others to sell into his bids is just plain annoying. It seems to stand out when dealing with small caps.




I agree completely. We should ban people selling small parcels as that is clearly dishonest. Honest people sell big parcels - a simple fact. 

While we are at it, if we simply ban selling all together prices cannot possibly fall. All investors will be rewarded and the market is a much more orderly place.

Don't you start asking how we can buy shares if no one is selling... that's just minor detail in the whole scheme of things.


----------



## NewTrade (26 August 2011)

skc said:


> I agree completely. We should ban people selling small parcels as that is clearly dishonest. Honest people sell big parcels - a simple fact.
> 
> While we are at it, if we simply ban selling all together prices cannot possibly fall. All investors will be rewarded and the market is a much more orderly place.
> 
> Don't you start asking how we can buy shares if no one is selling... that's just minor detail in the whole scheme of things.




But selling into yourself to keep the price low is fine I guess? 

The problem here is people are looking at parcel orders and replying with "Parcels orders are fine - you are nuts"... That is not the issue here. This person is cleary selling into himself.

What a bunch of cynics - don't bother replying if you are going to talk sarcastic crap.


----------



## skyQuake (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> But selling into yourself to keep the price low is fine I guess?
> 
> The problem here is people are looking at parcel orders and replying with "Parcels orders are fine - you are nuts"... That is not the issue here. This person is cleary selling into himself.
> 
> What a bunch of cynics - don't bother replying if you are going to talk sarcastic crap.




lol. How do you even know hes selling to himself? Are there no other bidders in the market? More likely someone else on the bid is getting small parcels of cheap stock.

Is he artistically keeping the price low or trying to get out without spooking the mkt?

What stock are you looking at?


----------



## skc (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> But selling into yourself to keep the price low is fine I guess?
> 
> The problem here is people are looking at parcel orders and replying with "Parcels orders are fine - you are nuts"... That is not the issue here. This person is cleary selling into himself.
> 
> What a bunch of cynics - don't bother replying if you are going to talk sarcastic crap.




Exactly how does one profit by selling to him/herself?

And why do you think people are giving you sarcastic crap?


----------



## MrMomentum (26 August 2011)

I've often wondered if it's a computer program that’s doing the selling when it is consistent instead of some guy hitting the sell button all day.


----------



## NewTrade (26 August 2011)

skc said:


> Exactly how does one profit by selling to him/herself?
> 
> And why do you think people are giving you sarcastic crap?




I always imagined that it is not for direct profit - merely coercing (un-informed) sellers to bail into his bid.

Throw a bid for 50,000 units at 54.5, price hits 55, throw a parcel into yourself for 54.5 of about 200 units (w/e jst needs to be small). Coerce some bloke to throw his holdings a half a cent cheaper. This only works if you are trying to obtain large amounts of holdings that would most likely exceed the ask volume of a price.

Perhaps there is certainty in the mind of that fellow that this share will jump, and he wants to obtain maximum profit in the end.


----------



## skc (26 August 2011)

MrMomentum said:


> I've often wondered if it's a computer program that’s doing the selling when it is consistent instead of some guy hitting the sell button all day.




Personally I don't trust computers doing it. That's why I hire a Monkey to do these small parcel selling for me.

You can hire them at www.hireatradingmonkey.com. The more experienced the higher the rate.


----------



## NewTrade (26 August 2011)

skc said:


> Personally I don't trust computers doing it. That's why I hire a Monkey to do these small parcel selling for me.
> 
> You can hire them at www.hireatradingmonkey.com. The more experienced the higher the rate.




I can't wait to eat that monkey! ..................................................................


----------



## satanoperca (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> but is effecting the charts with an abnormal pattern.




Learn to trade the abnormal pattern. 

Cheers


----------



## skc (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> I always imagined that it is not for direct profit - merely coercing (un-informed) sellers to bail into his bid.
> 
> Throw a bid for 50,000 units at 54.5, price hits 55, throw a parcel into yourself for 54.5 of about 200 units (w/e jst needs to be small). Coerce some bloke to throw his holdings a half a cent cheaper. This only works if you are trying to obtain large amounts of holdings that would most likely exceed the ask volume of a price.
> 
> Perhaps there is certainty in the mind of that fellow that this share will jump, and he wants to obtain maximum profit in the end.




OK. Go through the course of sales and calculate how many shares he is able to obtain at 54.5 vs how many shares he's sold. How many more shares has he got now compared to the start?


----------



## NewTrade (26 August 2011)

skc said:


> OK. Go through the course of sales and calculate how many shares he is able to obtain at 54.5 vs how many shares he's sold. How many more shares has he got now compared to the start?




I can't determine with certainty a solid number. All I see is numbers, not faces or handles. Any information I give you from this point on isn't solid, and can be argued against... So why bother...


----------



## skc (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> I can't determine with certainty a solid number. All I see is numbers, not faces or handles. Any information I give you from this point on isn't solid, and can be argued against... So why bother...




So you choose to stay with the suspicion that someone is selling into himself in order to profit, but you can't determine the fact based on the information available. Why?


----------



## NewTrade (26 August 2011)

skc said:


> So you choose to stay with the suspicion that someone is selling into himself in order to profit, but you can't determine the fact based on the information available. Why?




Because I don't think I am qualified to make such a solid distinction and am only able to speculate.

Watching new replenished bids put in, and small parcels being thrown into those bids in right after the price jumps a point is suspicious enough to warrent such a speculation.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (26 August 2011)

Don't enter stocks that get manipulated by bots.  I told you that the other day New.  Then you went and did it again.  Check course of sales and stop complaining.


----------



## skyQuake (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> Because I don't think I am qualified to make such a solid distinction and am only able to speculate.
> 
> Watching new replenished bids put in, and small parcels being thrown into those bids in right after the price jumps a point is suspicious enough to warrent such a speculation.




Prob just an algo with a 'sell over day instruction'


----------



## tech/a (26 August 2011)

> you are a rather insulting individual.




Compliment accepted. Nice to see my work recognized for what it is.

*SKC*
And I thought I had a strangle hold on ASF sarcasm.

Ill have to resort to Hyperbole
and Litotes


----------



## skc (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> Because I don't think I am qualified to make such a solid distinction and am only able to speculate.
> 
> Watching new replenished bids put in, and small parcels being thrown into those bids in right after the price jumps a point is suspicious enough to warrent such a speculation.




Fair enough. Since it is only speculation, what plans do you have to find ways to prove/dis-prove your speculation? 

Do you have an open mind that it could be just someone breaking up the sale of his large order?


----------



## tech/a (26 August 2011)

Why not *TRY IT YOURSELF*

Wont be long and youll see how successful it is!


----------



## NewTrade (26 August 2011)

Fair enough - thank you all for your comments.

Will smith - out.


----------



## skc (26 August 2011)

tech/a said:


> *SKC*
> And I thought I had a strangle hold on ASF sarcasm.
> 
> Ill have to resort to Hyperbole
> and Litotes




What can I say? You are the duck, I am the chicken. Who knows that common poultry can be so sacastic?


----------



## Tysonboss1 (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> I know I've mentioned this before, but I am just sick and tired of this trade practice.
> 
> Every time the price goes up, some trader flicks off a parcel to bring the price back down. This automatic flicking is getting really annoying because it not only keeps the price down in the red, but is effecting the charts with an abnormal pattern. The parcels are always small - and the dishonesty is frustrating.
> 
> Watching some idiot sell into himself with small parcels to coerce others to sell into his bids is just plain annoying. It seems to stand out when dealing with small caps.




Welcome to the markets, LOL.

Whats wrong with low prices, I hope they go lower.


----------



## joea (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> I know I've mentioned this before, but I am just sick and tired of this trade practice.
> 
> Every time the price goes up, some trader flicks off a parcel to bring the price back down. This automatic flicking is getting really annoying because it not only keeps the price down in the red, but is effecting the charts with an abnormal pattern. The parcels are always small - and the dishonesty is frustrating.
> 
> Watching some idiot sell into himself with small parcels to coerce others to sell into his bids is just plain annoying. It seems to stand out when dealing with small caps.




New Trade
Please do not take the rules I quote the wrong way.

Bill Gates gave a speech to high school class, about the things the children will not learn at school. They go by as a number of rules. I will put down the first two and then work out how to post the complete article.

Rule No.1 Life is not fair - get used to it.

Rule No.2 The world doesn't  care about your self-esteem.
             The world will expect you to accomplish something.
             Before you feel good about yourself.

My comment... if you worry about things that you cannot change, you will battle your whole life.
 Look at the positives.
You can spend your whole life trading how somebody told you to.
Or you can learn from the guys here, who attempt to help you.  
But they will not say how to do it, because they wan't you to make that choice.
joea


----------



## Assasin (26 August 2011)

Techa and SKC could make a great comedy double. They crack me up.

Thats a fair assesment Joea, I look forward to the other rules.


----------



## joea (26 August 2011)

Assasin said:


> Techa and SKC could make a great comedy double. They crack me up.
> 
> Thats a fair assesment Joea, I look forward to the other rules.




From joea


----------



## Assasin (26 August 2011)

Thanks Joea, am printing out and leaving it on teenage daughters pillow.:


----------



## Timmy (26 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> Every time the price goes up, some trader flicks off a parcel to bring the price back down.




Are you from the Fed?
C'mon ... this is Ben Bernanke, isn't it?


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 August 2011)

Not a game for the feint hearted. You need balls to enter the market and a sharp sword to slay the beast.


----------



## NewTrade (26 August 2011)

Timmy said:


> Are you from the Fed?
> C'mon ... this is Ben Bernanke, isn't it?




Who told you!?


----------



## joea (26 August 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> Not a game for the feint hearted. You need balls to enter the market and a sharp sword to slay the beast.




So you are saying females cannot trade?
you have forgot your etiquette! 
joea


----------



## bathuu (27 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> I know I've mentioned this before, but I am just sick and tired of this trade practice.
> 
> Every time the price goes up, some trader flicks off a parcel to bring the price back down. This automatic flicking is getting really annoying because it not only keeps the price down in the red, but is effecting the charts with an abnormal pattern. The parcels are always small - and the dishonesty is frustrating.
> 
> Watching some idiot sell into himself with small parcels to coerce others to sell into his bids is just plain annoying. It seems to stand out when dealing with small caps.




First of all, are you investor or trader? If you are investor you have to live with this price fluctuation. Judging from your username I guess you are the latter one. If you are frustrated by this price movement by small sellers /those yet strong enough to move price, how awesome huh?/, I think you don't get the whole idea of trading, even you should not even be trading, get something easy for your life, man. Trading is not for everyone, specially your are not mentally prepared to take any stress.


----------



## davede (27 August 2011)

Hi NewTrade,

Curious if this sort of behaviour you're describing falls under the category of market manipulation where someone acts "to create a false or misleading appearance regarding the market" for a particular security.[1] This would make their actions illegal and worth reporting to ASIC.

Perhaps I'm not reading into things right, but selling to oneself sounds like it creates a misleading appearance to me.

Where do you draw a distinction?



[1]ASIC


----------



## Struzball (27 August 2011)

I could sell my house to myself for $1.

But that wouldn't lower the value of the house, it wouldn't lower the value of my neighbors house.

$1 would just be a price paid for my house, not what it's worth.

If everything ever only cost what it's worth, there would be no such thing as stock trading because the price would be steady day in day out.  What you're looking at is not the value of the stock going up and down, it's just a price somebody paid.

If you believe he is genuinely selling to himself at a price lower than what it's worth, put in a big buy order at that lower price and snatch it up every time he tries to sell to himself.

I'd love to be able to buy up $1 houses that way, because I know they're worth more than that.


----------



## nomore4s (27 August 2011)

davede said:


> Perhaps I'm not reading into things right, but selling to oneself sounds like it creates a misleading appearance to me.




Newtrade has no idea whether anyone is selling to themselves. Newtrade has made an assumption based on nothing. Newtrade has had a whinge and then jumped to unfounded speculation because the price of the stock in question is not acting the way Newtrade wants it to.

There is nothing sinister or underhanded going on. My suggestion would be instead of watching every single price movement - let the trade play out.


----------



## davede (27 August 2011)

nomore4s said:


> Newtrade has no idea whether anyone is selling to themselves. Newtrade has made an assumption based on nothing. Newtrade has had a whinge and then jumped to unfounded speculation because the price of the stock in question is not acting the way Newtrade wants it to.
> 
> There is nothing sinister or underhanded going on. My suggestion would be instead of watching every single price movement - let the trade play out.




That makes more sense.

Couldn't remember the exact terminology for the type of market manipulation NewTrade is describing when I posted last time but now I remember - it would be a 'wash sale' I think.

A transaction between parties that doesn't involve a change in the beneficial ownership of a security.

Which would be illegal. Of course I don't believe this is what is happening either.


----------



## NewTrade (27 August 2011)

nomore4s said:


> Newtrade has no idea whether anyone is selling to themselves. Newtrade has made an assumption based on nothing. Newtrade has had a whinge and then jumped to unfounded speculation because the price of the stock in question is not acting the way Newtrade wants it to.
> 
> There is nothing sinister or underhanded going on. My suggestion would be instead of watching every single price movement - let the trade play out.




You'd think that - but I hardly think you can sit there and actually believe I have pulled this information out of my ass....

I watched the trading activity for two days and the consistancies between the parcels going into fresh bids that were always a half-point lower than the last traded price. The reason why I can't produce anything definitive, is because it is a futile effort. How can I determine with certainty the numbers originiated from the same source outside of speculation?

So jump off your horse - it is doing you no good.


----------



## G-Zilla (27 August 2011)

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15047&page=1

I mate, I understand your concern however this is the market in all its beauty. It may suck for us little guys who do not have the resources to play these games also but is not without the risks for the manipulator.

Good luck in your trading!




NewTrade said:


> You'd think that - but I hardly think you can sit there and actually believe I have pulled this information out of my ass....
> 
> I watched the trading activity for two days and the consistancies between the parcels going into fresh bids that were always a half-point lower than the last traded price. The reason why I can't produce anything definitive, is because it is a futile effort. How can I determine with certainty the numbers originiated from the same source outside of speculation?
> 
> So jump off your horse - it is doing you no good.


----------



## NewTrade (27 August 2011)

G-Zilla said:


> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15047&page=1
> 
> I mate, I understand your concern however this is the market in all its beauty. It may suck for us little guys who do not have the resources to play these games also but is not without the risks for the manipulator.
> 
> Good luck in your trading!




Ok, thanks for the post.


----------



## tech/a (27 August 2011)

Let's answer the question

Say you have larger than average holding in an illiquid stock.
One that if you wanted to lighten a position would see price plummet if you attempted to sell 500000 in one sale at market.Not a good idea particularly if it moves the price dramatically lower.
So you sell small parcels at x level.
No one notices your un winding a very big position.
Infact if thereis strength you can take advantage of any higher price.

*THE INTENTION ISN'T TO DROP PRICE*

It's the *EXACT* opposite.
Unwind a position at the best possible price!

Nanu Nanu!


----------



## NewTrade (27 August 2011)

tech/a said:


> Let's answer the question
> 
> Say you have larger than average holding in an illiquid stock.
> One that if you wanted to lighten a position would see price plummet if you attempted to sell 500000 in one sale at market.Not a good idea particularly if it moves the price dramatically lower.
> ...




Ahh, well that makes sense! 

My thought was that he was trying to accumulate holdings - bu your method makes sense.

Thanks for that - I guess it is just another strat to follow


----------



## tothemax6 (27 August 2011)

skc said:


> I agree completely. We should ban people selling small parcels as that is clearly dishonest. Honest people sell big parcels - a simple fact.
> 
> While we are at it, if we simply ban selling all together prices cannot possibly fall. All investors will be rewarded and the market is a much more orderly place.
> 
> Don't you start asking how we can buy shares if no one is selling... that's just minor detail in the whole scheme of things.



LOL, thanks for that skc.


----------



## barney (27 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> Ahh, well that makes sense!
> 
> My thought was that he was trying to accumulate holdings - bu your method makes sense.
> 
> Thanks for that - I guess it is just another strat to follow




Hi NT,   As tech has mentioned above, it could be a larger holder unwinding (therefore it would not be the same trader who is buying and selling)

Of course your initial assumption could also be true .... A large "accumulator" will often buy parcels of shares, then immediately have smaller parcels "botted" into the market to give the perception to the casual investor that the SP is not moving/stagnant.

With tech's example, we need to bear in mind it takes a long time to sell a few million shares at a few hundred shares per trade, so the botting in this case could go on for a long period.   

The hard part is working out which scenario is going on.  It sometimes helps if you put yourself in the position of the trader/traders who are either unloading or accumulating, and ask yourself what you would do at the current price levels

For example, if you were the accumulator, what would you do on down days?? Buy more or less (ie is the volume telling you anything) ....... Does the SP recover quickly on up days (volume is doing what again)  .......... is there a pattern to the price action?

If you were the large "unloader", would you sell more or less on down days 

*Of course, the overall market sentiment at the time may override what would be considered normal price behaviour.
*
Also, even if you are the accumulator ........ assuming you have a truckload of stock, you may still be happy to push the price down as far as possible to mop up all the sellers (future potential resistance on the way up), assuming of course you have correctly analysed the stock, and it will eventually scream up 

Large accumulators of any stock are more likely to be accumulating because they know something that you and I don't ..... (Oops, sorry, there is no such thing as insider trading .... disregard that comment

Bottom line is, there are no rules ..... price will go where it goes.  Looking at how the price action/volume behaves around previous support and resistance levels will give you the most reliable info to base a guess on!!

Sorry for the long winded ramble .....  Cheers.


----------



## NewTrade (27 August 2011)

No need to apologise I am loving the rational input.


----------



## barney (27 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> No need to apologise I am loving the rational input.




I joined the "Rational" party a few years back .... but I prefer not to discuss Politics:

Cheers


----------



## nomore4s (29 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> You'd think that - but I hardly think you can sit there and actually believe I have pulled this information out of my ass....
> 
> I watched the trading activity for two days and the consistancies between the parcels going into fresh bids that were always a half-point lower than the last traded price. The reason why I can't produce anything definitive, is because it is a futile effort. How can I determine with certainty the numbers originiated from the same source outside of speculation?
> 
> So jump off your horse - it is doing you no good.




But you have pulled this info out of your ass.

You have absolutely no idea whether someone is selling to themselves or not, you have jumped to a massive conclusion based on nothing. Price is not doing what you want it too so you are having a whinge about it.

There are plenty of other possible scenarios but you automatically jump to the conclusion someone is selling to themselves.


----------



## NewTrade (29 August 2011)

nomore4s said:


> But you have pulled this info out of your ass.
> 
> You have absolutely no idea whether someone is selling to themselves or not, you have jumped to a massive conclusion based on nothing. Price is not doing what you want it too so you are having a whinge about it.
> 
> There are plenty of other possible scenarios but you automatically jump to the conclusion someone is selling to themselves.




Thank you, Thank you! I bow to you! I bow to your brilliant powers of deduction! The entire forum rallies to your word, the heavens quiver at your very expressions. From whence does thou gather such power that God himself may shiver in his throne, that the renders the Devil into total envy?.......


----------



## nomore4s (29 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> No problem thank you very much come again....
> 
> So analysts of inconsistancies are doomed to fail because they rely on deduction, analysis but are attempting to uncover the "fact"?
> 
> Give me a break sunshine - you don't like the content of the thread, stop posting in it.




Uncovering what fact? There have been no facts posted in this thread, that is the problem. Analysing inconsistencies is fine but jumping to wild conclusions based on "watching the stock closely for 2 days" is not.

Your precious stock currently is up over 7% so does that mean someone is manipulating price upwards? No I didn't think so, you only tend to whinge and claim conspiracies when price doesn't move the way you want it too.


----------



## nomore4s (29 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> Thank you, Thank you! I bow to you! I bow to your brilliant powers of deduction! The entire forum rallies to your word, the heavens quiver at your very expressions. From whence does thou gather such power that God himself may shiver in his throne, that the renders the Devil into total envy?.......




Word of warning, don't push your luck.

You started this thread with a question, more of a whinge really and I'm free to post my views on it, you are now resorting to being a smart @rse because I'm not playing along with your views of the market.


----------



## NewTrade (29 August 2011)

nomore4s said:


> Uncovering what fact? There have been no facts posted in this thread, that is the problem. Analysing inconsistencies is fine but jumping to wild conclusions based on "watching the stock closely for 2 days" is not.
> 
> Your precious stock currently is up over 7% so does that mean someone is manipulating price upwards? No I didn't think so, you only tend to whinge and claim conspiracies when price doesn't move the way you want it too.




Sorry, what is up 7%? I never mentioned the stock.

Will you guide my soul to Valhalla oh great Valkyrie of the East?


----------



## nomore4s (29 August 2011)

NewTrade said:


> Sorry, what is up 7%? I never mentioned the stock.




You didn't have to


----------



## gav (29 August 2011)

nomore4s said:


> My suggestion would be instead of watching every single price movement - let the trade play out.




You are making the assumption that he actually has a trading plan...


----------



## Wysiwyg (29 August 2011)

gav said:


> You are making the assumption that he actually has a trading plan...



 Talking of trading plans, how are your Amibroker experiences going so far?


----------



## gav (8 September 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> Talking of trading plans, how are your Amibroker experiences going so far?




A bit slower than anticipated, but not to bad   I am doing uni part-time which has taken up a lot of my spare time.  However, one of my units is Introduction to Programming, which has really helped me 'understand' how to code in Amibroker.


----------

