# The Five Commandments of Aussie Stock Forums



## Joe Blow

Managing Aussie Stock Forums is an extremely challenging task, made even more difficult by the strong growth ASF has experienced in recent times. Although we have a Code of Conduct it is still very difficult to get some members to abide by the site rules. This, slightly tongue-in-cheek list of commandments details the areas which create the most management problems for the moderators and myself.

If everyone abided by the following five commandments, ASF would become a more effective resource and a far more pleasant place for everyone to visit. There would also be far less work for the moderators and I to do, so please do everything you can to assist us in creating a friendly and constructive atmosphere here. Don't forget that the moderators are all volunteers who give their time to help maintain this community, so please always treat them with the appropriate respect... which leads me to the first commandment:


*1. Thou shalt treat other ASF members with respect.*

In short that means no insults, name calling or personal attacks. It also means do not deliberately provoke others. We will no longer be allowing inflammatory threads that are intended solely to provoke and divide the ASF community. If you are starting a thread on a controversial topic please ensure that you frame the discussion in a constructive way. A little pot stirring is fine, but any post that directly insults another ASF member or encourages hatred of or vilifies a particular group of people will be removed and an infraction will be issued.

Those who continually demonstrate that they are unable to treat others respectfully or who persist in provoking others will have their ASF account permanently suspended.


*2. Thou shalt not ramp.*

Ramping is the single largest problem ASF faces and it is the one we continue to struggle with on a daily basis. So exactly what is a "ramp" or "downramp"?

If you make an assertion in a post in a stock thread, it must be substantiated. It can be backed up with analysis, additional information or reasonable extrapolation. For example, if you make the claim that a company is undervalued, you must support that claim by presenting reasons for your point of view. Just saying that you believe it to be undervalued is not enough. 

The most common ramping related "sins" we encounter are:


Posting price targets or assigning arbitrary valuations with no accompanying analysis.
Posting unsourced rumours from other stock forums or blogs. Rumours from the mainstream broadcast or print media are allowed as long as the source is identified.
Posting information sourced from elsewhere without citing (or linking to) the original source material.
People claiming to have unnamed "contacts" who are supplying them with information not available to the market.
Posts with no meaningful content. If you are going to post in a stock thread, please ensure you have something of value to contribute.

Ramping is such an all pervasive problem that we require the assistance of all ASF members to assist us in keeping a lid on it. If you see a post that you believe to be a ramp (or downramp), please use the "Report a Post" feature to alert the moderators and me to it.

Some more detail on our ramping policy can be found here.


*3. Thou shalt not ask for, nor offer, specific financial advice.*

This means you are not permitted to ask others how to invest your funds, nor can anyone advise someone else how to invest theirs. You may not refer to a stock as a "buy" or a "sell" nor can you "recommend" a stock in any way.


*4. Thou shalt not spam your product, service or website.*

You are not permitted to post links to, or promote, your product, service or website in posts on the forums. However, you may put a simple link to it in your signature. No affiliate links, sales pitches or large font sizes please! Any links that the moderators or I feel is inappropriate will be promptly removed.

With the market looking bullish again the spammers, scammers and snake oil salesmen will be out in force attempting to spam their dodgy wares on ASF. Please report any spam posts as soon as you see them so we can stop these parasites in their tracks.


*5. Think before thou posteth!*

It is amazing how many people simply do not think before they post. Here are some things to consider before you click the "Submit" button.


If you are about to start a thread, have you done a search to see whether another active thread on the same topic already exists?
Are you starting your thread in the correct forum?
Is your post on topic?
Is the content of your post potentially defamatory or in violation of any law?
Have you proofread your post for spelling and/or grammatical errors?

Aussie Stock Forums is not Speaker's Corner in London's Hyde Park, it is an online community with rules that are designed to make it an enjoyable and useful place for everyone, irrespective of age, gender, investment experience, religion or political affiliation. While we encourage robust debate on almost any topic, I ask that people respect the limits I have outlined above. Please do not look for loopholes or to continually ride that fine line between what is acceptable and what isn't. Posting at ASF is not a right and we reserve the right to deny access to (or remove the posts of) those who demonstrate that they are incapable of respecting the website rules.

Any community, online or otherwise, is only as good as the sum of those who inhabit it, so please do your part to make ASF the positive and friendly place it is capable of being! 

If you have any further questions or would like additional clarification of any of the commandments listed above, feel free to post any questions in this thread and I will respond to them.


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## Joe Blow

Please do your best to avoid conflict with other ASF members. The moderators and I dislike getting caught in the middle of online brawls as we often become targets ourselves when we are forced to intervene. I have put together the following tips to help people avoid conflict with others.

*Some tips for avoiding conflict on ASF*

If you are engaged in a debate with another ASF member and it is becoming clear that you are unable to find any common ground, consider just agreeing to disagree rather than persist with a debate that is likely to end with an exchange of insults.

Tone and inflection is sometimes not so apparent in the written word. It is possible to misinterpret the tone or intention of a post very easily. If you are unsure what someone meant, it may be a good idea to send them a PM and ask them to clarify, rather than respond in an argumentative or confrontationalist manner.

If you find the posts of another ASF member  irritating to the point that it is affecting your enjoyment of the forums then consider putting that person on your ignore list.

When composing your posts, imagine that you are standing in front of the person you are addressing and only post what you would say to them in person. It is easy to be far more provocative and combative when you are posting anonymously from behind a keyboard in your home/workplace.

If you feel you are being provoked or goaded by another ASF member, don't take the bait! Simply ignore them or, if you feel you are being targeted by somone, report their posts.

Do not put words in the mouths of others! This is one of the surest ways to start a fight. If you are uncertain of someone's opinion on a particular issue or are confused by their stance then *ask them to clarify*.

If you find yourself getting angry at the opinions of others, consider avoiding threads on topics that tend to get you worked up. Online communities are supposed to be places that are enjoyable to visit. If you find yourself getting angry or frustrated, get up, walk away from the computer and go and do something else for a while. Do not let anger get the better of you!


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## Julia

Joe Blow said:


> Managing Aussie Stock Forums is an extremely challenging task, made even more difficult by the strong growth ASF has experienced in recent times. Although we have a Code of Conduct it is still very difficult to get some members to abide by the site rules. This, slightly tongue-in-cheek list of commandments details the areas which create the most management problems for the moderators and myself.
> 
> If everyone abided by the following five commandments, ASF would become a more effective resource and a far more pleasant place for everyone to visit. There would also be far less work for the moderators and I to do, so please do everything you can to assist us in creating a friendly and constructive atmosphere here. Don't forget that the moderators are all volunteers who give their time to help maintain this community, so please always treat them with the appropriate respect... which leads me to the first commandment:
> 
> 
> *1. Thou shalt treat other ASF members with respect.*
> 
> In short that means no insults, name calling or personal attacks. It also means do not deliberately provoke others. We will no longer be allowing inflammatory threads that are intended solely to provoke and divide the ASF community. If you are starting a thread on a controversial topic please ensure that you frame the discussion in a constructive way. A little pot stirring is fine, but any post that directly insults another ASF member or encourages hatred of or vilifies a particular group of people will be removed and an infraction will be issued.
> 
> Those who continually demonstrate that they are unable to treat others respectfully or who persist in provoking others will have their ASF account permanently suspended.
> 
> 
> *2. Thou shalt not ramp.*
> 
> Ramping is the single largest problem ASF faces and it is the one we continue to struggle with on a daily basis. So exactly what is a "ramp" or "downramp"?
> 
> If you make an assertion in a post in a stock thread, it must be substantiated. It can be backed up with analysis, additional information or reasonable extrapolation. For example, if you make the claim that a company is undervalued, you must support that claim by presenting reasons for your point of view. Just saying that you believe it to be undervalued is not enough.
> 
> The most common ramping related "sins" we encounter are:
> 
> 
> Posting price targets or assigning arbitrary valuations with no accompanying analysis.
> Posting unsourced rumours from other stock forums or blogs. Rumours from the mainstream broadcast or print media are allowed as long as the source is identified.
> Posting information sourced from elsewhere without citing (or linking to) the original source material.
> People claiming to have unnamed "contacts" who are supplying them with information not available to the market.
> Posts with no meaningful content. If you are going to post in a stock thread, please ensure you have something of value to contribute.
> 
> Ramping is such an all pervasive problem that we require the assistance of all ASF members to assist us in keeping a lid on it. If you see a post that you believe to be a ramp (or downramp), please use the "Report a Post" feature to alert the moderators and me to it.
> 
> Some more detail on our ramping policy can be found here.
> 
> 
> *3. Thou shalt not ask for, nor offer, specific financial advice.*
> 
> This means you are not permitted to ask others how to invest your funds, nor can anyone advise someone else how to invest theirs. You may not refer to a stock as a "buy" or a "sell" nor can you "recommend" a stock in any way.
> 
> 
> *4. Thou shalt not spam your product, service or website.*
> 
> You are not permitted to post links to, or promote, your product, service or website in posts on the forums. However, you may put a simple link to it in your signature. No affiliate links, sales pitches or large font sizes please! Any links that the moderators or I feel is inappropriate will be promptly removed.
> 
> With the market looking bullish again the spammers, scammers and snake oil salesmen will be out in force attempting to spam their dodgy wares on ASF. Please report any spam posts as soon as you see them so we can stop these parasites in their tracks.
> 
> 
> *5. Think before thou posteth!*
> 
> It is amazing how many people simply do not think before they post. Here are some things to consider before you click the "Submit" button.
> 
> 
> If you are about to start a thread, have you done a search to see whether another active thread on the same topic already exists?
> Are you starting your thread in the correct forum?
> Is your post on topic?
> Is the content of your post potentially defamatory or in violation of any law?
> Have you proofread your post for spelling and/or grammatical errors?
> 
> Aussie Stock Forums is not Speaker's Corner in London's Hyde Park, it is an online community with rules that are designed to make it an enjoyable and useful place for everyone, irrespective of age, gender, investment experience, religion or political affiliation. While we encourage robust debate on almost any topic, I ask that people respect the limits I have outlined above. Please do not look for loopholes or to continually ride that fine line between what is acceptable and what isn't. Posting at ASF is not a right and we reserve the right to deny access to (or remove the posts of) those who demonstrate that they are incapable of respecting the website rules.
> 
> Any community, online or otherwise, is only as good as the sum of those who inhabit it, so please do your part to make ASF the positive and friendly place it is capable of being!
> 
> If you have any further questions or would like additional clarification of any of the commandments listed above, feel free to post any questions in this thread and I will respond to them.






Joe Blow said:


> Please do your best to avoid conflict with other ASF members. The moderators and I dislike getting caught in the middle of online brawls as we often become targets ourselves when we are forced to intervene. I have put together the following tips to help people avoid conflict with others.
> 
> *Some tips for avoiding conflict on ASF*
> 
> If you are engaged in a debate with another ASF member and it is becoming clear that you are unable to find any common ground, consider just agreeing to disagree rather than persist with a debate that is likely to end with an exchange of insults.
> 
> Tone and inflection is sometimes not so apparent in the written word. It is possible to misinterpret the tone or intention of a post very easily. If you are unsure what someone meant, it may be a good idea to send them a PM and ask them to clarify, rather than respond in an argumentative or confrontationalist manner.
> 
> If you find the posts of another ASF member  irritating to the point that it is affecting your enjoyment of the forums then consider putting that person on your ignore list.
> 
> When composing your posts, imagine that you are standing in front of the person you are addressing and only post what you would say to them in person. It is easy to be far more provocative and combative when you are posting anonymously from behind a keyboard in your home/workplace.
> 
> If you feel you are being provoked or goaded by another ASF member, don't take the bait! Simply ignore them or, if you feel you are being targeted by somone, report their posts.
> 
> Do not put words in the mouths of others! This is one of the surest ways to start a fight. If you are uncertain of someone's opinion on a particular issue or are confused by their stance then *ask them to clarify*.
> 
> If you find yourself getting angry at the opinions of others, consider avoiding threads on topics that tend to get you worked up. Online communities are supposed to be places that are enjoyable to visit. If you find yourself getting angry or frustrated, get up, walk away from the computer and go and do something else for a while. Do not let anger get the better of you!




Joe, I've read the above two announcements with interest, and wonder if perhaps you've thought of moving these to the General Chat thread?
I rarely look at the Announcements Forum and suspect others might be the same.

Your Commandments seem pretty reasonable to me.  I'd be interested in what others think.

The topic of conflict on the forum is interesting.  Without some challenging of our entrenched views, exchanges become boring and we're not stimulated to think much.  But it's a fine line as to where these challenges become attacks, and as such can result in some quite heated spats.
I know from time to time I've found myself responding to what feels like an unreasonable attitude with more of the same, and so the aggressiveness is fuelled.  Ultimately, this serves none of us well.


It's not always easy to contradict someone, or challenge their view, in a respectful and objective way, but I guess this is something we all need to be aiming for.

Any comments from other members?


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## Wysiwyg

Julia said:


> Any comments from other members?




Just one from me Julia.  Do you think it would be better for anyone viewing a post if half the screen isn't filled with the previous post or posts quoted. Maybe a few lines to let the readers know who or what question is being responded to would be more practical. Above is an example of what I mean. What do you think? 

x W.


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## Julia

Really good point, Wysiwyg.  I agree, and I considered it in this instance.
But I was attempting to, um, 'repeat' Joe's announcement in the hope that some people might be prompted to respond.

At the other end of the scale, I find it a bit irritating when someone just posts a link with maybe a comment such as "this is interesting", but no clue as to what it's about.  A few words as to the content to enable the reader to decide whether they're sufficiently interested to want to follow the link would be useful.


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## Wysiwyg

> Is your post on topic?




I would hope a little common sense goes with this requirement. Obviously at times a discussion branches off briefly about something and it is totally impractical to start a new thread to simply exchange a few posts.


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## Wysiwyg

Julia said:


> At the other end of the scale, I find it a bit irritating when someone just posts a link with maybe a comment such as "this is interesting", but no clue as to what it's about.  A few words as to the content to enable the reader to decide whether they're sufficiently interested to want to follow the link would be useful.



Yes it is a bit silly to simply post a link or you tube without some explanation as to what it is about. I really don't waste download time and bytes on something I may not be interested in.


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## Bobby

How about posting infraction information , what does a 5 point one mean ?

Take Care .
Bobby.


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## nulla nulla

Julia said:


> Your Commandments seem pretty reasonable to me.  I'd be interested in what others think.
> 
> The topic of conflict on the forum is interesting.  Without some challenging of our entrenched views, exchanges become boring and we're not stimulated to think much.  But it's a fine line as to where these challenges become attacks, and as such can result in some quite heated spats.
> I know from time to time I've found myself responding to what feels like an unreasonable attitude with more of the same, and so the aggressiveness is fuelled.  Ultimately, this serves none of us well.
> 
> 
> It's not always easy to contradict someone, or challenge their view, in a respectful and objective way, but I guess this is something we all need to be aiming for.
> 
> Any comments from other members?




As a moderate poster I acknowledge the need for social guidelines to reduce the incidence of heated personal interaction, which more often than not deviates from the original theme of the thread. However I also feel there needs to be some recourse to posters sick of seeing threads hijacked by posters sprooking their "wisdom" which generally shows up as shallow when tested.  
I don't believe in "running to teacher" when someone is a bit pointed in their response. I'd like to think we are mature enough (and civil enough) to deal with any differences of perspective without it escalating to a level needing moderator intervention. 
I believe we need to be allowed to express our differences of opinion, without fear of rebuke (and forced holidays). After all, isn't this what starting threads is all about?


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## explod

Julia said:


> Joe, I've read the above two announcements with interest, and wonder if perhaps you've thought of moving these to the General Chat thread?
> I rarely look at the Announcements Forum and suspect others might be the same.
> 
> Your Commandments seem pretty reasonable to me.  I'd be interested in what others think.
> 
> The topic of conflict on the forum is interesting.  Without some challenging of our entrenched views, exchanges become boring and we're not stimulated to think much.  But it's a fine line as to where these challenges become attacks, and as such can result in some quite heated spats.
> I know from time to time I've found myself responding to what feels like an unreasonable attitude with more of the same, and so the aggressiveness is fuelled.  Ultimately, this serves none of us well.
> 
> 
> It's not always easy to contradict someone, or challenge their view, in a respectful and objective way, but I guess this is something we all need to be aiming for.
> 
> Any comments from other members?




Have also found the same problem on contradiction.   I have gradualled learned that you cant'  just better to focus on putting your own view when it is counter with well sourced support.  But of course the bit of Irish gets in the way sometimes.

As for the placement, I rarely look at the chat areas, so not sure.

cheers explod


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## prawn_86

Bobby said:


> How about posting infraction information , what does a 5 point one mean ?
> 
> Take Care .
> Bobby.




Im sure Joe will expand on it further, but essentially once you have racked up 20 infraction points you are sent on a holiday for a period of time, depending on the nature of the infractions (this is automated, not decided by the mods).

Hope that helps.


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## Mr J

nulla nulla said:
			
		

> However I also feel there needs to be some recourse to posters sick of seeing threads hijacked by posters sprooking their "wisdom" which generally shows up as shallow when tested.




Why not post your view? Just a guess, but some of these posters might appreciate feedback, and post for discussion, not ego.


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## nulla nulla

Mr J said:


> Why not post your view? Just a guess, but some of these posters might appreciate feedback, and post for discussion, not ego.




I believe if the post I made is read objectively, in its entirety, other posters would realise that I am responding to Julia's invitation to comment. 
I have expressed an opinion, including what i consider to be relative points, which is open for comment by other posters. 
At this point I can't make the "ego" connection but I'm happy to review my post and improve on it if I can. However, I will say that I don't wish too see this thread hijacked or demeaned by getting into a senseless point scoring argument with other posters.


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## Real1ty

Is ASF still a financial site? I would say not.

I believe it is really a site for general topics, chat, political, religious and conspiracy theories with a very small % of financial posts in relation to these topics.

ASF has changed so much since i first joined, it holds very little attraction to me any more because it is no longer what it was, a financial site, and a lot of the good posters are now gone.

I have voiced my concerns to you in the past Joe about the direction of ASF but i understand this is a business for you and the more members you get the better it is for you but with this comes the extra work.
The topics that these posters want to talk about are far more controversial and come with far stronger beliefs attached to them than what the majority of financial topics do, therefore creating more unacceptable posts and work for Mods.


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## Joe Blow

Wysiwyg said:


> I would hope a little common sense goes with this requirement. Obviously at times a discussion branches off briefly about something and it is totally impractical to start a new thread to simply exchange a few posts.




Yes, a few brief off topic posts are fine. I am really referring to those who deliberately hijack threads in an attempt to take them off topic.



Bobby said:


> How about posting infraction information , what does a 5 point one mean ?
> 
> Take Care .
> Bobby.




Most infraction points last for three months, at which point they expire. Anyone who accumulates 20 points in any three month period gets a three month suspension.

Here are some of the most common infractions, followed by the amount of demerit points in parentheses:

Defying 100 Character Minimum Rule (2)
No/Low Content Post in Stock Thread (2)
Minor Ramp/Downramp (4)
Offensive Language (4)
Deliberately Provoking Others (5)
Major Ramp/Downramp (7)
Personal Abuse of Other Member(s) (7)
Racism/Vilification (10)
Spamming (10)



Real1ty said:


> Is ASF still a financial site? I would say not.
> 
> I believe it is really a site for general topics, chat, political, religious and conspiracy theories with a very small % of financial posts in relation to these topics.
> 
> ASF has changed so much since i first joined, it holds very little attraction to me any more because it is no longer what it was, a financial site, and a lot of the good posters are now gone.
> 
> I have voiced my concerns to you in the past Joe about the direction of ASF but i understand this is a business for you and the more members you get the better it is for you but with this comes the extra work as the topics that these posters want to talk about are far more controversial and come with far stronger beliefs attached to them than what the majority of financial topics do, therefore creating more unacceptable posts and work for Mods.




I understand that the General Chat forum is not for everyone but personally I think it makes ASF a more rounded community. It has always been my intention to create an online community with a focus on the stock market and investment rather than just a "stock market forum". When the market closes (and indeed when it is still open) some people prefer to chat about other topics and I want to encourage that. I find forums with a very narrow focus a bit dry and lacking in character, but that's just a personal preference.

I would hope that those who do not wish to participate in the General Chat forum can do their best to ignore it. There is still plenty of financial and market related chat going on here! 

With regards to posters that have left, people always come and go on forums. Some leave for a while, some leave for good. However, the reasons for the departures are always many and varied. At the same time, there are new ASF members arriving every day, many of them with much to offer.


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## Real1ty

Joe you have either ignored or missed my point.

You have encouraged some of the issues you have raised and while ASF continues on its current path, they will get worse not better.

Surely you can see that posters that want to talk about politics, religion etc are going to produce more issues than those wanting to discuss financial matters.

You mention quality of posts but once again you contribute to the lack of quality.

The 100 character rule is a joke and leads to posters adding anything at the end of their posts to fulfil the 100 characters.

Anyway, the forum is yours to run as you see fit and i will leave the forum to you guys now as i have little interest in it's current form and most likely future direction.

Joe please cancel my account. If you need this in a PM please advise me and i will do so.

Thank you.


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## Joe Blow

Real1ty said:


> You have encouraged some of the issues you have raised and while ASF continues on its current path, they will get worse not better.




Yes, I have encouraged people to discuss almost anything they think is worthy of discussion. I think, by and large, the ASF community is mature enough to discuss a wide variety of topics, some of them controversial, in a constructive and respectful way.



Real1ty said:


> Surely you can see that posters that want to talk about politics, religion etc are going to produce more issues than those wanting to discuss financial matters.




Perhaps, but those who cannot conduct themselves in a reasonable way will find themselves eventually suspended from ASF. The point of this thread was to make people aware of what we are prepared to accept as reasonable behaviour and what we aren't.



Real1ty said:


> The 100 character rule is a joke and leads to posters adding anything at the end of their posts to fulfil the 100 characters.




The rule has actually proven to be very successful and as a result there are far fewer posts in stock threads with little or no worthwhile content. Posts that are padded out are promptly removed. I suspect that your problem with this rule is that you were constantly being pulled up for ignoring it.



Real1ty said:


> Anyway, the forum is yours to run as you see fit and i will leave the forum to you guys now as i have little interest in it's current form and most likely future direction.
> 
> Joe please cancel my account.




Fair enough. All the best with your future endeavours.


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## awg

Hi Joe,

          I have some questions about the infraction rule, if you dont mind.

Do mods normally notify the infractor if they are deemed to have incurred penalty?

warn the person if they are in danger of suspension?

Have been curious about this, especially as I notice "another" stock forum seems to suspend people with over-zealous regularity. ( think they have too many retired school teachers as mods)

I have had at least one post deleted due to 100 characters, and one removed from the joke thread, as it was too coarse ( I only know coarse jokes), but was not notified of any infraction ( i'm not complaining btw, just asking)

In the past, I have had my mind changed by hearing other people views, and I regard this as a good thing, as I was probably wrong in the first place.

ASF is especially useful in this respect with regard to opinions on various equities or strategies.

Also on things like climate change, their is a scarcity of understanding, some posters provide good links.

Get a laugh out of online spats, ASF is well behaved compared to other forums I have seen, fwiw think mods do a good job, wouldnt want to be one though


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## Joe Blow

awg said:


> Hi Joe,
> 
> I have some questions about the infraction rule, if you dont mind.
> 
> Do mods normally notify the infractor if they are deemed to have incurred penalty?
> 
> warn the person if they are in danger of suspension?
> 
> Have been curious about this, especially as I notice "another" stock forum seems to suspend people with over-zealous regularity. ( think they have too many retired school teachers as mods)




Hi awg,

A PM is automatically dispatched with each warning or infraction with a brief explanation of why it was issued.

We do not necessarily issue warnings to those who are close to a suspension, as this is difficult to keep track of. However, if you view your own profile you can see a list of infractions and warnings and a point total. This can only been seen by you and the moderators and I. It might be an idea to keep an eye on this if you think you might be getting close to the dreaded 20 points.

Hope that answers your questions.


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## awg

thanks joe, it does.

I didnt know that the profile contained that info, and as I have had no PMs or infractions, I am blemish free, even though my deleted joke was pretty vile
( but funny)


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## Bobby

What is ASFs ABN ( Australian Business Number ) ?  
Or legal entity name as registered with the Australian Business Register or Australian Tax Office .

Take Care 
Bobby.


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## Joe Blow

Bobby,

ASF is owned by Aussie Networks Pty. Ltd. 

This has been at the bottom of every page of ASF for years.


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## skc

Real1ty said:


> ASF has changed so much since i first joined, it holds very little attraction to me any more because it is no longer what it was, a financial site, and a lot of the good posters are now gone.




I also _feel _there is some truth in this  

Joe, in your response you seem to think this is not a problem. I agree there are still great financial information around... they just _feel _harder to come by. I was just wondering if some stats / data could prove otherwise. e.g. 

- Of the top 50 most replied / viewed posts in the last 3 months, how many of them are "general chat" vs financial related?

- Of the top posters (by that I mean quality not quantity), have you seen any change in their post activities? I assume yourself and the moderators have some ideas who the top posters are in terms of their value to ASF _as a financial forum_.

I understand this may not be easily compiled, but the potential crowding out effect could be real.


----------



## Joe Blow

skc said:


> I also _feel _there is some truth in this
> 
> Joe, in your response you seem to think this is not a problem. I agree there are still great financial information around... they just _feel _harder to come by. I was just wondering if some stats / data could prove otherwise. e.g.
> 
> - Of the top 50 most replied / viewed posts in the last 3 months, how many of them are "general chat" vs financial related?
> 
> - Of the top posters (by that I mean quality not quantity), have you seen any change in their post activities? I assume yourself and the moderators have some ideas who the top posters are in terms of their value to ASF _as a financial forum_.
> 
> I understand this may not be easily compiled, but the potential crowding out effect could be real.




ASF was *never* a stock market only site. It has always had a robust General Chat forum and I see this as adding to the site, not taking away from it.

I have never wanted this to be a forum where people only discussed stocks and financial/investment matters, even though this is clearly the focus of the site. The world continues to turn after the market closes and there are many other, more general topics worth discussing. Personally, I find forums with too narrow a focus to be a bit bland and boring.

It's easy to avoid the General Chat forum for those who do not wish to participate, but it will always be a big part of ASF because I think it makes it a far more interesting place. I encourage people to discuss stocks and investing/trading related topics but I also encourage people to also discuss matters of a more peripheral nature. There is, after all, much more to life than the market.

However, having said that, I am considering restricting posting in the General Chat forum to those who have been here for a while or who have a certain amount of posts under their belt. I'm still ironing out the details.

No one forum is going to satisfy everyone and I've always realised that. Some people will like the culture of ASF and others wont and ultimately that's up to everyone to decide for themselves.


----------



## Julia

Joe Blow said:


> However, having said that, I am considering restricting posting in the General Chat forum to those who have been here for a while or who have a certain amount of posts under their belt. I'm still ironing out the details.



Joe, obviously this is your forum and you should decide how it works.
But I have some reservations about restricting posting in the General Chat forum (or any other forum, for that matter) to any particular group of people.
This brings the sense of stratification into the forum, something which used to exist when the term e.g. 'Senior member' appeared with a person's nic.
Personally, I think it has been better since this was scrapped.

There could be lots of new members who have worthwhile opinions about most things.   I can't say I've noticed that newer people necessarily don't have interesting views, but you obviously have a reason for considering a change.


----------



## Joe Blow

Julia said:


> Joe, obviously this is your forum and you should decide how it works.
> But I have some reservations about restricting posting in the General Chat forum (or any other forum, for that matter) to any particular group of people.
> This brings the sense of stratification into the forum, something which used to exist when the term e.g. 'Senior member' appeared with a person's nic.
> Personally, I think it has been better since this was scrapped.
> 
> There could be lots of new members who have worthwhile opinions about most things.   I can't say I've noticed that newer people necessarily don't have interesting views, but you obviously have a reason for considering a change.




Hi Julia,

In the past we have occasionally had problems with people who have no interest in the stock market showing up with the sole intention of disrupting the General Chat forum. This is what motivated me to consider restricting posting in the General Chat forum to those who have demonstrated an interest in trading/investing. The post qualification would be a nominal amount and would not be difficult for those with a genuine interest in the stock market to reach fairly quickly.

Anyway, I am still open to suggestion and would be interested in the opinions of other ASF members on this proposed change.


----------



## Julia

Joe Blow said:


> Hi Julia,
> 
> In the past we have occasionally had problems with people who have no interest in the stock market showing up with the sole intention of disrupting the General Chat forum. This is what motivated me to consider restricting posting in the General Chat forum to those who have demonstrated an interest in trading/investing. The post qualification would be a nominal amount and would not be difficult for those with a genuine interest in the stock market to reach fairly quickly.
> 
> Anyway, I am still open to suggestion and would be interested in the opinions of other ASF members on this proposed change.



Thanks, Joe.
Yes, I figured that out later.  Sorry, should have thought it through further.
Agree.  A similar phenomenon exists on the Storm Financial thread.


----------



## drsmith

Joe Blow said:


> In the past we have occasionally had problems with people who have no interest in the stock market showing up with the sole intention of disrupting the General Chat forum. This is what motivated me to consider restricting posting in the General Chat forum to those who have demonstrated an interest in trading/investing. The post qualification would be a nominal amount and would not be difficult for those with a genuine interest in the stock market to reach fairly quickly.
> 
> Anyway, I am still open to suggestion and would be interested in the opinions of other ASF members on this proposed change.



Something like this would not be unique.

DTVforum for example has a minimum post count (essentially nominal) before new members can start threads.


----------



## Wysiwyg

drsmith said:


> Something like this would not be unique.
> 
> DTVforum for example has a minimum post count (essentially nominal) before new members can start threads.




That would most likely avoid duplicating threads while the person becomes orientated. Unless the poster duplicates on purpose thereafter to antagonise but I don't think anyone would.


----------



## explod

*Explosion MA (hons)*  (and I can verify that) reporting in.

Good topic folks, keep it rolling. Lovely fine day down here on the Peninsula, birds singing, bay is a flat cerelian blue mill pond; and can hear the polluting cars rolling down the Mooroduc Freeway, could not be better.

Dont' know where this will finish but agree wholehartedly that some form of easing in (and out) on a common sense basis is needed.

I will mull over.

Oh and sorry Joe, looks like I want that prize, running second last on the stock tipping.


----------



## Kremmen

Joe Blow said:


> The rule has actually proven to be very successful and as a result there are far fewer posts in stock threads with little or no worthwhile content. Posts that are padded out are promptly removed.




Said like a true politician. Avoiding stupid "me too" posts would only take a 10-character limit. Making it 100 characters is like cracking a nut with a sledgehammer. Yes, it works, but it's excessive and unnecessary.

There are many posts about stocks, such as reporting take-overs, announcements, etc, which can impart useful information to others and can be phrased in way under 100 characters. The limit just means that everyone phrases things sloppily and uses longer words. It simply encourages the opposite of good, clear writing.

Posts that are padded out are seldom removed and it would be almost impossible to do so. Someone might use a couple of 8-letter words instead of 3-letter words to get them over the limit, and policing that would take a huge amount of effort. Not only that, but if it were policed, a massive number of useful, informative posts would be deleted.


----------



## Joe Blow

Kremmen said:


> Yes, it works, but it's excessive and unnecessary.




Only to those unwilling to put in any effort.



Kremmen said:


> There are many posts about stocks, such as reporting take-overs, announcements, etc, which can impart useful information to others and can be phrased in way under 100 characters.




Nonsense. 100 characters is no more than one line of text. If you're reporting a take over or passing on an announcement how about adding a comment or two of your own and adding some value? 



Kremmen said:


> The limit just means that everyone phrases things sloppily and uses longer words. It simply encourages the opposite of good, clear writing.




I notice very little of this.



Kremmen said:


> Posts that are padded out are seldom removed and it would be almost impossible to do so.




Not true. Most are removed. You just have to know how to search for them.



Kremmen said:


> Not only that, but if it were policed, a massive number of useful, informative posts would be deleted.




I couldn't disagree more. I have never seen a post of less than 100 characters that couldn't have been improved with a minimal amount of effort. There is one reason for posts of less than 100 characters in stock threads: laziness.


----------



## drsmith

To me as an individual poster the 100 character limit does seem excessive. Useful information can be provided with less particularly when answering a simple question put by another poster.

At the same time though it's easier to contribute nothing of added value with fewer words so perhaps it's a compromise that has to be struck and from their viewpoint the mods have concluded that 100 characters represents the best overall compromise.


----------



## Wysiwyg

drsmith said:


> To me as an individual poster the 100 character limit does seem excessive. Useful information can be provided with less particularly when answering a simple question put by another poster.
> 
> At the same time though it's easier to contribute nothing of added value with fewer words so perhaps it's a compromise that has to be struck and from their viewpoint the mods have concluded that 100 characters represents the best overall compromise.




The way I see this rather insignificant issue is the rampers are disgruntled because they have been asked to apply an informative communication. This seems to stretch the acceptance level of a few that, by persona, are unwilling to comply.


----------



## Kremmen

Joe Blow said:


> Nonsense. 100 characters is no more than one line of text. If you're reporting a take over or passing on an announcement how about adding a comment or two of your own and adding some value?



What if I have no further value to add (that wouldn't be classified as ramping)? I haven't analysed any of it, I've just noticed something important that hasn't been commented on before. Perhaps I'm in a hurry. I post ... and the board tells me that I've failed to reach the 100-char limit. What do I do? Either pad it, or not post at all. The former is a waste of time, the latter means that some information just never appears here.

The really silly part is that it's just that much too big to be annoying. I would probably ever notice it if it were a 60 or 70 or maybe even 80 character limit. 100 is just long enough to be a pita, while providing nothing that a shorter limit wouldn't also achieve.


----------



## nulla nulla

It appears this thread is becomming bogged down on the merits of posts being a minimum of 100 characters, at the expense of the social guidelines raised in the 5 commandments.


----------



## nick2fish

Agree, and as my signature suggests sometimes a few words can convey a great deal


----------



## bunyip

If a post is removed for whatever reason, particularly if it's an offensive or insulting or disrespectful post, the offending person should at least be notified of the reasons for the removal and warned that they'll be skating on thin ice if they repeat their behaviour.


----------



## Wysiwyg

bunyip said:


> If a post is removed for whatever reason, particularly if it's an offensive or insulting or disrespectful post, the offending person should at least be notified of the reasons for the removal and warned that they'll be skating on thin ice if they repeat their behaviour.



From first hand experience I agree. (not this forum) It is very offensive, insulting and disrespectful to find one has been sin binned without warning, notification or most importantly the reason. For trumped up or trivial reason is injustice of the highest order.


----------



## nunthewiser

Agree .

After being binned from Commsec on numerous occasions without ANY reasons given whatsoever it is rather refreshing to be told what i am doing wrong here and given the chance to pull my head in when i get a lil carried away at times ....... At least here you are given fair warning before you get canned 

Re. being notified why posts are removed Bunyip ,  everytime my posts are removed i am given a reason why, i may not agree with them reasons but at least i know why.


----------



## kincella

"Robots Unlike Mofra I didnt expect you to grasp my comments. However I did expect you to understand yields and return on investments concepts, but I guess one should never assume."

the above was posted by Taltan, yesterday on the housing thread.....I find that *insulting *to Robots.....and other viewers.....readers.....

it seems to be fair game....on the housing thread, to insult and ridicule...and name call anyone with an opposing view.....robots and myself were singled out for this.....
I dont intend to return, until you stop the personal attacks.....
just to remind you of this rule.............

1. Thou shalt treat other ASF members with respect.

In short that means no insults, name calling or personal attacks. It also means do not deliberately provoke others. We will no longer be allowing inflammatory threads that are intended solely to provoke and divide the ASF community. If you are starting a thread on a controversial topic please ensure that you frame the discussion in a constructive way. A little pot stirring is fine, but any post that directly insults another ASF member or encourages hatred of or vilifies a particular group of people will be removed and an infraction will be issued.

Those who continually demonstrate that they are unable to treat others respectfully or who persist in provoking others will have their ASF account permanently suspended.


----------



## Joe Blow

kincella said:


> "Robots Unlike Mofra I didnt expect you to grasp my comments. However I did expect you to understand yields and return on investments concepts, but I guess one should never assume."
> 
> the above was posted by Taltan, yesterday on the housing thread.....I find that *insulting *to Robots.....and other viewers.....readers.....
> 
> it seems to be fair game....on the housing thread, to insult and ridicule...and name call anyone with an opposing view.....robots and myself were singled out for this.....
> I dont intend to return, until you stop the personal attacks.....
> just to remind you of this rule.............
> 
> 1. Thou shalt treat other ASF members with respect.
> 
> In short that means no insults, name calling or personal attacks. It also means do not deliberately provoke others. We will no longer be allowing inflammatory threads that are intended solely to provoke and divide the ASF community. If you are starting a thread on a controversial topic please ensure that you frame the discussion in a constructive way. A little pot stirring is fine, but any post that directly insults another ASF member or encourages hatred of or vilifies a particular group of people will be removed and an infraction will be issued.
> 
> Those who continually demonstrate that they are unable to treat others respectfully or who persist in provoking others will have their ASF account permanently suspended.




Robots gives as good as he gets, but you're right, those two property threads cause us more management headaches than any other threads on ASF and for that reason they have now been permanently closed.

Any attempt to open new threads on the same topic will result in the threads being deleted and the thread starter being permanently suspended from ASF.

Enough is enough.


----------



## DocK

Joe Blow said:


> Hi Julia,
> 
> In the past we have occasionally had problems with people who have no interest in the stock market showing up with the sole intention of disrupting the General Chat forum. This is what motivated me to consider restricting posting in the General Chat forum to those who have demonstrated an interest in trading/investing. The post qualification would be a nominal amount and would not be difficult for those with a genuine interest in the stock market to reach fairly quickly.
> 
> Anyway, I am still open to suggestion and would be interested in the opinions of other ASF members on this proposed change.



If I may suggest one aspect that could be considered?  To use myself as an example - I do have a great interest in the stock market, but very rarely post in the "serious" threads, but post mainly in the general section.  This is not due to lack of interest, but lack of knowledge.  I'm still in the learning stage and really enjoy reading and learning from threads about investing strategies, brokers, software etc - but I know I have very little or nothing of value to add and therefore do not post.  I benefit a great deal from the more serious side of ASF, but am not able to contribute (yet).  So far, I have been able to find the answers to most of my many questions through searching prior threads - although a couple of questions posted have been promptly and politely answered by regulars.  

On the other hand, I do like to be involved, and enjoy posting in the General Chat forum on topics that interest or amuse me - and feel as qualified as the next poster to air my opinion on non-investment matters.  Naturally, in my opinion it would be a shame if newbies like myself couldn't post at all until we had accrued a certain number of posts in the trading/investment threads.  I would have thought the more serious members would be more annoyed by people like me posting valueless content purely to boost my post count ?  After all, anyone who finds the general chat annoying can ignore that part of ASF entirely without any bother.


----------



## Mad Mel

Joe, something that I've seen used on other forums which are based on the same software is a 'Thanks' feature.   It allows people to display their agreement with a post or indicate that they feel it was valuable, without cluttering the forum with short messages.   As an example, I would 'Thank' DocK's message above, because it reflects my thoughts as well, so there's no point me reiterating it.  It could be an option to the 100 character limit.  Just something to consider.  Cheers.


----------



## explod

Joe Blow said:


> Robots gives as good as he gets, but you're right, those two property threads cause us more management headaches than any other threads on ASF and for that reason they have now been permanently closed.
> 
> Any attempt to open new threads on the same topic will result in the threads being deleted and the thread starter being permanently suspended from ASF.
> 
> Enough is enough.





This is a sorry state of affairs IMV Joe, and I perhaps now lament my own near rantings on these threads also.   A few weeks ago for example Robots and I p/m ed each other in the freindly aussie way, agreed to disagree and also continue to belt each other as we thought fit.

Although I supposoe ASF purports, by the word "*stock*", to be confined to that area of investing, a great deal of good exchange revolves around some much more unrelated and sometimes trivial content.

The are shades where property, as product, is part of the ASX which should clearly rule it in, but as a topic of conversation for investors, is hard to rule out also.

Perhaps the titles parts, *"to keep rising/falling for years'* may have been a key to the problem, as in fact no investment continues on an even trajectory and if you are in on the conversation you are most probably black or white.

Could we perhaps consider threads such as "The residential Property Market"  "The Investment Property Market", "Commercial Property" or
"The Best Ways to Invest in Property" etc.

cheers Explod


----------



## nunthewiser

RIP housing threads :behead:

Gunna miss Robots and roundabout discussions :hide:


----------



## satanoperca

explod said:


> The are shades where property, as product, is part of the ASX which should clearly rule it in, but as a topic of conversation for investors, is hard to rule out also.
> 
> Could we perhaps consider threads such as "The residential Property Market"  "The Investment Property Market", "Commercial Property" or
> "The Best Ways to Invest in Property" etc.
> 
> cheers Explod




Fully agree, while some of the posts were benign, alot contained good arguements supported by facts.

I for one found the threads interesting and constructive in gaining a better understanding of the property market.

It would be a shame that ASF does not have a single thread on property.

Please mods allow a single thread on residential property.

Cheers


----------



## Joe Blow

Unfortunately it all comes down to management.

When a thread requires no management it is of no concern to myself or the moderators. We have no interest in intervening in threads that are constructive and civil. But when a thread takes up an excessive amount of our time because of trolling and personal attacks and it ceases to serve any useful purpose, there is no point in allowing it to continue.

I will have a think about allowing another property thread but if it were to happen there would be a zero tolerance policy with regard to trolling and personal attacks, punishable by instant month long suspensions.

Ultimately the success or failure of any thread is in the hands of the thread participants. There are threads thousands of posts in length where the moderators and I have not had to intervene once and there has not been one single reported post. If the property threads were like that we would  have absolutely no problem with them, but sadly, that is not the case.


----------



## nunthewiser

I understand and respect the fact of it creating extra work for you and the moderators .. Thats fair enough if its come to the point where you guys cannot be bothered with it anymore ........Understandable even .

How about if I or any other of these posters here that will miss the banter puts there hand up to volunteer as the moderator for the 2 property threads only ? 

Sincere offer, i do understand it may not be practical or easy enough to organise but it is another option to keep a very active couple of threads still in motion .

NOT with banning powers but the ability to remove any offensive or attacking posts ?


----------



## satanoperca

Fair call Joe, it seems quite unreasonable for mods to have to monitor every posts and every thread.



Joe Blow said:


> I will have a think about allowing another property thread but if it were to happen there would be a zero tolerance policy with regard to trolling and personal attacks, punishable by instant *month long suspensions*.




If you do reach the conclusion that a general property thread is appropriate then it seems quite reasonable if you infringe the rules, then out to the dog box for one month to think about what you have done.

I will also miss Robots daily commentary and pick me up comments.

Cheers


----------



## Joe Blow

What some people don't seem to grasp about moderation is that it is all about the management of the ASF community, nothing more.

There are members who have been here for five years or more who have never received so much as a warning. Those who consistently obey the site rules and behave themselves will, in all likelihood, never hear from the moderators or myself.

There are no ulterior motives or axe grinding, all we are trying to do is make ASF an enjoyable and constructive place for everyone. People are judged solely by the content of their posts. There are no other considerations.

I will have a bit more of a think about property threads before making any decision.


----------



## cuttlefish

Joe just a thought - the house price rising thread is one of only several threads on the whole site that have had more than 7000 replies and over 200,000 views and provides a concentrated location for discussion of property prices.  Given those statistics, does it not also seem reasonable that it will also be one of the most active in terms of moderation.  

The volume of views and replies would make it the equivalent of multiple threads in terms of posting/viewing activity and thus also moderation work.

If I do a search on ASF for 'invest' and limit it to threads with over 7000 replies only three threads show up, the 'house prices to keep rising' thread being the third in the list. So it could be argued that the property thread is the third most popular thread on investment on the whole ASF site.


----------



## Joe Blow

cuttlefish said:


> Joe just a thought - the house price rising thread is one of only several threads on the whole site that have had more than 7000 replies and over 200,000 views and provides a concentrated location for discussion of property prices.  Given those statistics, does it not also seem reasonable that it will also be one of the most active in terms of moderation.
> 
> The volume of views and replies would make it the equivalent of multiple threads in terms of posting/viewing activity and thus also moderation work.
> 
> If I do a search on ASF for 'invest' and limit it to threads with over 7000 replies only three threads show up, the 'house prices to keep rising' thread being the third in the list. So it could be argued that the property thread is the third most popular thread on investment on the whole ASF site.




We're prepared to accept a reasonable amount of managment in the course of maintaining the ASF community but the property threads simply got out of control. There was far too much trolling and personal attacks by too high a percentage of thread participants. We did out best but would often find ourselves removing a dozen posts at a time that were off topic or otherwise over the line. Unfortunately, the threads developed a toxic culture all of their own that was unlikey to improve. The moderators and I often discussed shutting them down numerous times but let them go in the hope they would improve. Despite many interventions by us, they never did.

It is unfortunate that those who did not resort to trolling or personal attacks have been penalised by the thread closures and I do acknowledge that and personally I do find it disappointing. However, I am considering what can be done about it and whether or not a new thread can be started with a zero tolerance policy.


----------



## theasxgorilla

nunthewiser said:


> How about if I or any other of these posters here that will miss the banter puts there hand up to volunteer as the moderator for the 2 property threads only ?
> 
> Sincere offer, i do understand it may not be practical or easy enough to organise but it is another option to keep a very active couple of threads still in motion .




This is very kind offer Nun, thank you.  As Joe has mentioned the approach to property threads is currently being reviewed. Who knows what the future holds.  

In the meantime, if you think a situation calls for the attention of a moderator, please use the "report post" button.  The majority of posters have excellent judgement about what is reasonable.

Thanks again!


----------



## robots

hello,

good evening, hope all well

yes an interesting topic but life is forever changing and this is a new place in time now, 

perhaps me and Nun can share the moderation of any new thread,

we all part of something special, a bond which will continue on through our journey man 

thankyou
Doctor Robots


----------



## Bill M

Joe Blow said:


> It is unfortunate that those who did not resort to trolling or personal attacks have been penalised by the thread closures and I do acknowledge that and personally I do find it disappointing. However, I am considering what can be done about it and whether or not a new thread can be started with a zero tolerance policy.




I am very disappointed about the closure of the property threads. They were very informative and interesting to read. As someone who has never abused anyone and likes to put in a positive response to threads I am one of those who feels penalised unnecessarily. Why can't we just ban repeating offending posters like they do on other forums? Lets say someone starts abusing someone on the CBA or NAB threads should we close them down forever too? It just doesn't make sense but then again it isn't my website so I respect that and thank you for allowing me to participate in those threads that touch every Australian in one way or another.


----------



## MACCA350

Oh dear, the thought of Robots holding the trigger  the following movie scene comes to mind:

General Kimsey: If you're trying to make me feel better about this scenario, give it up.
Truman: To tell you the truth, I'm kind of encouraged. This guy Chick here was an Air Force commando for six years.
General Kimsey: We got robbery, assault, arrest, resisting arrest. We got a collection agent for the mob. Two of these guys have done serious time.
Truman: Look, they're the best at what they do.
General Kimsey: So am I. And I'm not so optimistic. We spend 250 billion dollars a year on defense. And here we are. The fate of the planet is in the hands of a bunch of retards I wouldn't trust with a potato gun. 



cheers


----------



## drsmith

Joe Blow said:


> It is unfortunate that those who did not resort to trolling or personal attacks have been penalised by the thread closures and I do acknowledge that and personally I do find it disappointing. However, I am considering what can be done about it and whether or not a new thread can be started with a zero tolerance policy.



A minimum character limit (100 ??, 1000 for posts starting with hello).


----------



## MACCA350

drsmith said:


> A minimum character limit (100 ??, 1000 for posts starting with hello).


----------



## MACCA350

So what's the verdict fella's?
We've got auction results coming tonight but no where to post them.........and it won't be the same without Robots and Kincella's gloating 

cheers


----------



## Joe Blow

MACCA350 said:


> So what's the verdict fella's?
> We've got auction results coming tonight but no where to post them.........and it won't be the same without Robots and Kincella's gloating
> 
> cheers




I've decided to allow another property thread but with a zero tolerance stance towards trolling and personal attacks. The thread will be started in the next couple of days and the first post will go into the expectations of behaviour in more detail.


----------



## Dowdy

Joe Blow said:


> I've decided to allow another property thread but with a zero tolerance stance towards trolling and personal attacks. The thread will be started in the next couple of days and the first post will go into the expectations of behaviour in more detail.




If there is going to be ZERO TOLERANCE towards TROLLING then you're going to have alot of reports from Robots posts. The mans' the definition of a troll - calling himself a doctor/ professor just for starters


----------



## sam76

if I may...

I don't even read the the thread in question so it may not be applicible but why don't you leave the current thread open (seems self-destructive having two) and just start banning/suspending people that cause a stir.

Tough love wins out every time over the 'trying to please everyone method'

look at HC.... not too many rampers on there now after the zero tolerance method came in.

ASF is too big to be a 'small community of like-minded people' and needs to be run accordingly. (IMHO)


No reason why it wouldn't work here..

not trying to step on toes, just putting forward an idea...


----------



## nunthewiser

Dowdy said:


> If there is going to be ZERO TOLERANCE towards TROLLING then you're going to have alot of reports from Robots posts. The mans' the definition of a troll - calling himself a doctor/ professor just for starters





Good grief......

And some people need to get a sense of humour.

If thats a definition of trolling and bannable because of it i think things are going to get rather quiet around here. 

Thankyou 

Police commisioner Nun.


----------



## nunthewiser

And personally no longer care what happens anymore ........... Abusive and attaking posts .. yeah ....do something ........... but geez giving a bit of a stir in a conversation .....how you going to police that? .......... Ban ppl that have a different sense of humour to others but are polite about it therefore infuriating the not so quick witted ?

Yep seems fair to me ....

Anyways have a niceday i must get back to saving the world . 

Asta la vista Baby


----------



## robots

hello,

good evening fellow brothers, great day 

the sun shining bright for us all as life rolls on man

looking forward to the new thread and hope to be able to assist others in the future about property, pure economics and socio-economic issues (a new area of research I have completed)

keep well

thankyou
doctor robots


----------



## GumbyLearner

nunthewiser said:


> Good grief......
> 
> And some people need to get a sense of humour.
> 
> If thats a definition of trolling and bannable because of it i think things are going to get rather quiet around here.
> 
> Thankyou
> 
> Police commisioner Nun.




I think nun is right, there's a fair smothering of comic mixed with the rampathon of most of Robots posts.

*Hello

It's a beautiful day here guys down in Metrosexual St.Kilda.

The sun is out and just got a bargain of freshly baked organic non-GMO vegan chick-pea bagels on discount at the local trust-fund kiddie wannabe trotsky enclave here in the heart of St.Kilda.  

Property prices still flying down here on the leveraged backs of the hard-working St.Kilda co-operative. 

Going home on the pushy to write my next dissertation on profiting from property in this booming suburb.

It's great to be alive. Let the party roll on. Things couldn't be better.

Your highest lord and liege 
Professor Emeritus Robots. *


----------



## drsmith

There are two XAO threads (analysis and banter) so the same could be done for property if it is deciced the latter can be tolerated within reason.


----------



## Julia

GumbyLearner said:


> I think nun is right, there's a fair smothering of comic mixed with the rampathon of most of Robots posts.
> 
> *Hello
> 
> It's a beautiful day here guys down in Metrosexual St.Kilda.
> 
> The sun is out and just got a bargain of freshly baked organic non-GMO vegan chick-pea bagels on discount at the local trust-fund kiddie wannabe trotsky enclave here in the heart of St.Kilda.
> 
> Property prices still flying down here on the leveraged backs of the hard-working St.Kilda co-operative.
> 
> Going home on the pushy to write my next dissertation on profiting from property in this booming suburb.
> 
> It's great to be alive. Let the party roll on. Things couldn't be better.
> 
> Your highest lord and liege
> Professor Emeritus Robots. *




I agree.   I can't see anything offensive about Robots' general silliness.
It's not an attack on anyone, and I wouldn't have thought it could seriously be considered ramping.


----------



## nulla nulla

nunthewiser said:


> Good grief......
> 
> And some people need to get a sense of humour.
> 
> If thats a definition of trolling and bannable because of it i think things are going to get rather quiet around here.
> 
> Thankyou
> 
> Police commisioner Nun.




Heaven help us. Do you get it? lol


----------



## nulla nulla

Joe Blow said:


> I've decided to allow another property thread but with a zero tolerance stance towards trolling and personal attacks. The thread will be started in the next couple of days and the first post will go into the expectations of behaviour in more detail.




I'm wonering if this tread hasn' become a "properly" thread by defalt??


----------



## Joe Blow

nulla nulla said:


> I'm wonering if this tread hasn' become a "properly" thread by defalt??




Hopefully not any more now that the new property thread has been started: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17967


----------



## Joe Blow

sam76 said:


> I don't even read the the thread in question so it may not be applicible but why don't you leave the current thread open (seems self-destructive having two) and just start banning/suspending people that cause a stir.




A new thread with a more neutral title will hopefully signal a new beginning in the quality of debate.



sam76 said:


> Tough love wins out every time over the 'trying to please everyone method'




This is very true. 

When you try and please everyone you end up pleasing nobody. I'd rather try and please those who contribute to the community in a polite, constructive way instead of the rampers and those bent on disrupting ASF.


----------



## Joe Blow

I would just like to remind everyone that insulting or making personal attacks on other forum members is not permitted here at ASF.

You are free to disagree with and challenge the views and opinions of others but you are not entitled to insult and attack them personally.

The moderators and I do not read every post on the forums, so there may be some offending posts that slip by us. Reporting posts that contain insults or personal attacks helps us to identify and remove them and assists in helping to keep ASF a pleasant, friendly community.

Thank you all for your co-operation.


----------



## Logique

So the market is quiet, and federal politics is everywhere, and we are all making General Chat posts. 

I recall some time back there was a furious argument about deleting General Chat - can't locate the thread it was all on.

A perfect storm for Joe and the mods you'd think? All the time vetting increasingly passionate political diatribes from all sides. The number of threads and posts is amazing. Let's not forget that sponsors sign on for stocks forum exposure, not to a political blog. What's your thinking on this Joe?


----------



## Joe Blow

Logique said:


> What's your thinking on this Joe?




I have no problem with political discussion (or any other discussion) in the General Chat forum, as long as it is conducted in a civil and respectful way.

However, having said that, it would be nice to see some more stock discussion. After all, ASF *is* a stock market forum. So please don't forget to post in stock threads and contribute some analysis or update everyone on any developments in the stocks that are on your watchlist.


----------



## Logique

ASF is pretty good on troller prevention  I think.

_'It just makes me happy when I can make someone angry' - A special investigation into the dark world of trolling _
_XXXX of Hobart Posted at 1:03 PM February 28, 2012 
I run an internet forum. We get trolled all the time. We ban them and report their username, email and IP address along with any other details to a global anti-trolling network. This renders them unable to register using the same details on tens of thousands of websites worldwide._

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...ng/story-e6frfro0-1226278282934#ixzz1niIi1Epz


----------



## explod

I used to like discussing gold and silver and the related stocks but found the anti gold banking lobby's continual criticism of views other than the keynsian establishment too much.

I notice a lot a suport (including my own)was given awhile back to tech/A when he was crticised.

I hold AYN, CCU and NST in full since last week as I can anticipate this type of market.  But who cares.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Logique said:


> http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...ng/story-e6frfro0-1226278282934#ixzz1niIi1Epz




LOL



> Psychiatrist Dr Tanveer Ahmed said ............
> 
> He said a sense of power was important to how people behaved online. "You're far more likely to be a troll if you’re a relative weakling elsewhere," he said.
> "The internet is kind of a Wizard of Oz type setting, where people can feel big, whereas in another social setting they can be, well, pissheads frankly."


----------



## Trembling Hand

explod said:


> I used to like discussing gold and silver and the related stocks but found the anti gold banking lobby's continual criticism of views other than the keynsian establishment too much.




Oh please.


----------



## explod

Trembling Hand said:


> Oh please.




Not enough info for a mad dumbhead


----------



## Logique

Not for one minute saying or implying that it's trolling, but must admit, it's a tough crowd in the gold price thread, very contentious in there.


----------



## ProverbialPaul

All sound good to me!


----------



## Joe Blow

Given that we have just begun a new year and many here at ASF may not have seen this thread, I think it's an appropriate time to remind everyone about expectations of behaviour and posting. I would ask that everyone please review the first post in this thread very carefully.

Specifically, I would like to remind everyone of the following:


Do not insult or personally attack others. Ever. Do not call people morons, idiots or any other derogatory names. It is inappropriate and *it is not acceptable*. 
Posts should discuss the content of other's posts, not the posters themselves.
Do not deliberately provoke others, bully them, or bait them. I have no problem with passionate, robust debate. On the contrary, I encourage it. But argue the point, don't deliberately wind others up in an attempt to disrupt or derail the discussion.
Posts in stock threads should discuss the stock, or the content of other's posts, and that's it. No off topic posts, no posts discussing other posters, and no posts with no content. If you are simply agreeing with someone please add something else of value to the discussion.
It is not acceptable to accuse others of ramping simply because they take a bullish view of a stock. If you believe they are wrong, then your attack should be on their analysis, not them personally. 
It is not acceptable to accuse others of downramping simply because they take a bearish view of a stock. If you believe they are wrong, then your attack should be on their analysis, not them personally. 
Those taking a bullish or bearish view on ANY stock *must* post some analysis or reasoning to support their view.

I would urge everyone to please report posts that are in violation of the above points, or the commandments as outlined in the first post in this thread. The mods or I may not necessarily agree with your assessment of a particular post, but all reported posts are looked at.

Your co-operation in helping to maintain the constructive atmosphere and quality of posting here at ASF is very much appreciated!


----------



## MrBurns

Could I copy this to another forum where all they do all day is abuse each other as an example of how it should be done  ? 

It might wake them up....perhaps not.


----------



## Joe Blow

MrBurns said:


> Could I copy this to another forum where all they do all day is abuse each other as an example of how it should be done  ?
> 
> It might wake them up....perhaps not.




Yes, feel free to copy it if you like. Just please don't link to ASF if it's a forum full of trolls and adults acting like children. I'd prefer that they stay there.


----------



## MrBurns

Joe Blow said:


> Yes, feel free to copy it if you like. Just please don't link to ASF if it's a forum full of trolls and adults acting like children. I'd prefer that they stay there.




They're exotic car owners and a fair sprinkling of hangers on, I'll think about it.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

MrBurns said:


> They're exotic car owners and a fair sprinkling of hangers on, I'll think about it.




Trabant or Arnage ?

Be careful of the company you keep Burnsie.

gg


----------



## MrBurns

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Trabant or Arnage ?
> 
> Be careful of the company you keep Burnsie.
> 
> gg




Ferrari etc, smart **** would be an understatement for many of them, I really don't know why I bother with it, I bought a Maserati once and went there for advice and have been stuck ever since.
I must break the habit.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut

A Maserati Burnsie, well there you go.

To return the thread to it's original intent.

From Joe Blow



> Given that we have just begun a new year and many here at ASF may not have seen this thread, I think it's an appropriate time to remind everyone about expectations of behaviour and posting. I would ask that everyone please review the first post in this thread very carefully.
> 
> Specifically, I would like to remind everyone of the following:
> 
> Do not insult or personally attack others. Ever. Do not call people morons, idiots or any other derogatory names. It is inappropriate and it is not acceptable.
> Posts should discuss the content of other's posts, not the posters themselves.
> Do not deliberately provoke others, bully them, or bait them. I have no problem with passionate, robust debate. On the contrary, I encourage it. But argue the point, don't deliberately wind others up in an attempt to disrupt or derail the discussion.
> Posts in stock threads should discuss the stock, or the content of other's posts, and that's it. No off topic posts, no posts discussing other posters, and no posts with no content. If you are simply agreeing with someone please add something else of value to the discussion.
> It is not acceptable to accuse others of ramping simply because they take a bullish view of a stock. If you believe they are wrong, then your attack should be on their analysis, not them personally.
> It is not acceptable to accuse others of downramping simply because they take a bearish view of a stock. If you believe they are wrong, then your attack should be on their analysis, not them personally.
> Those taking a bullish or bearish view on ANY stock must post some analysis or reasoning to support their view.
> 
> 
> I would urge everyone to please report posts that are in violation of the above points, or the commandments as outlined in the first post in this thread. The mods or I may not necessarily agree with your assessment of a particular post, but all reported posts are looked at.
> 
> Your co-operation in helping to maintain the constructive atmosphere and quality of posting here at ASF is very much appreciated!




gg


----------



## nysefloortrader

MrBurns said:


> Could I copy this to another forum where all they do all day is abuse each other as an example of how it should be done  ?
> 
> It might wake them up....perhaps not.




I think I know that one you are talking about. 

The thing I love about us aussies are we are passionate even us traders. 

The thing I hate is that passion can turn to bickering and hatred pretty fast, when tension run hot if you know what I mean.


----------



## Joe Blow

Recently I have been contacted by a number of ASF members who have noted an increasing amount of deliberate unpleasantness and nastiness directed at those with different political opinions or who advocate alternative trading or investment approaches. I should point out that as far as I can tell, those who adopt a deliberately antagonistic and confrontational posting style represent a very small percentage of the ASF membership, but their actions are disruptive, damage community cohesion, and may in some cases discourage others from contributing.

I have no objection to passionate, robust debate but I expect everyone to treat others with a basic level of respect, irrespective of their views and opinions. Let's not let ASF degenerate into pointless bickering, personal attacks, and rudeness. It *is* possible to disagree respectfully, and the end result is a much more civil and constructive discussion.

If you have some feedback to offer regarding this issue, please feel free to post it in this thread. I would be very disappointed to think that some ASF members are deliberately not posting because of the intimidatory posting styles of a very small minority. While I understand that occasionally people lose their temper and that some conflict is inevitable on an internet forum, I won't hesitate to come down hard on those who are routinely guilty of anti-social and deliberately rude and disruptive behaviour. It's not the kind of atmosphere I want here at ASF.


----------



## Joe Blow

Folks, please be nice to each other. Really. Most of the conflict and unpleasantness I come across in various threads always seems so unnecessary and in some cases it is so distressing that it causes people to leave ASF permanently. 

If you disagree with someone please don't attack or insult them, but present your argument or alternative view in a polite and respectful way. This leads to constructive discussion and debate, while aggression and personal attacks lead to nothing but off topic posts, derailed threads and acrimony. 

In the past we have lost some good members who contributed a lot of valuable content over this very issue, so please think very carefully before you post. If you feel angry and want to take a potshot at someone, have a break and go and do something relaxing for a while. The impulse to post a personal attack or insult is usually very fleeting and dissipates quickly.

I don't want to lose any more members because of this, nor do I want newcomers to be scared off when they are mocked for asking silly questions. Just please be nice to each other. It doesn't cost anything and makes ASF a much more pleasant place to visit.


----------



## piggybank

Joe Blow said:


> Folks, please be nice to each other. Really. Most of the conflict and unpleasantness I come across in various threads always seems so unnecessary and in some cases it is so distressing that it causes people to leave ASF permanently.
> 
> If you disagree with someone please don't attack or insult them, but present your argument or alternative view in a polite and respectful way. This leads to constructive discussion and debate, while aggression and personal attacks lead to nothing but off topic posts, derailed threads and acrimony.
> 
> In the past we have lost some good members who contributed a lot of valuable content over this very issue, so please think very carefully before you post. If you feel angry and want to take a potshot at someone, have a break and go and do something relaxing for a while. The impulse to post a personal attack or insult is usually very fleeting and dissipates quickly.
> 
> I don't want to lose any more members because of this, nor do I want newcomers to be scared off when they are mocked for asking silly questions. Just please be nice to each other. It doesn't cost anything and makes ASF a much more pleasant place to visit.




Hi Joe,

It's a pity that new members are not aware of this thread from the start!! I know it's a bit late for me as I have already stated in another thread this morning, that I have had enough of posting given the snide remarks other members (who haven't even met me) have made. Each to their own, but it is a shame that you are losing some good people including Country Lad who told me he was getting fed up with the antics of a small minority here. Thanks for your support in the short time I have been here, but it is a case here of the minority spoiling it for the vast majority.

Wishing you all the best for the future.

Regards
PB


----------



## Joe Blow

piggybank said:


> It's a pity that new members are not aware of this thread from the start!! I know it's a bit late for me as I have already stated in another thread this morning, that I have had enough of posting given the snide remarks other members (who haven't even met me) have made. Each to their own, but it is a shame that you are losing some good people including Country Lad who told me he was getting fed up with the antics of a small minority here. Thanks for your support in the short time I have been here, but it is a case here of the minority spoiling it for the vast majority.
> 
> Wishing you all the best for the future.




I'm sorry to hear of your decision piggybank. I think you contributed a lot to the ASF community and am sorry to see you go.

I think it's pretty much impossible to have a perfectly harmonious community when it's the size of ASF. On a forum of this size you always have a few recalcitrant individuals who are difficult to get along with or who are annoying in some way. Someone who one person may find annoying may be another's favourite poster. It's all relative, and extremely difficult to micromanage for that reason.

I like to think that the moderators and I are fairly vigilant when to comes to genuine trolls and troublemakers, but I can't guarantee you that you (or anyone else) will never be irritated or annoyed by some other ASF members. I think that's just part and parcel or being a member of a relatively large online community.

Anyway, I hope you will re-consider your decision and decide to participate again.


----------



## Bill M

Joe Blow said:


> I don't want to lose any more members because of this,* nor do I want newcomers to be scared off when they are mocked for asking silly questions*. Just please be nice to each other. It doesn't cost anything and makes ASF a much more pleasant place to visit.




This one gets on my goat a bit too. We were all new once, who cares if someone repeats a question again? I'd rather welcome them than give them a hard time about "how to use the search function". I don't know why some posters get their knickers in a knot over it, live and let live. If you don't like a thread then move on but don't bully the new people. Now back to the real estate thread to stir someone up.... only joking, ASF is the best investment forum in Australia.


----------



## Julia

Joe Blow said:


> I'm sorry to hear of your decision piggybank. I think you contributed a lot to the ASF community and am sorry to see you go.



+1.  Hope you might reconsider, piggybank, though I do understand your reaction to the sort of sanctimonious stuff you received today.



Bill M said:


> This one gets on my goat a bit too. We were all new once, who cares if someone repeats a question again? I'd rather welcome them than give them a hard time about "how to use the search function". I don't know why some posters get their knickers in a knot over it, live and let live. If you don't like a thread then move on but don't bully the new people.



+1.
How about 'don't bully anyone at any time over anything".

If you feel obliged to have a go at someone, stop for a moment and consider how your remarks might impact the person you're addressing.  The result will often be what we see here.


----------



## Ves

General chat has been particularly bad this week.

I can't be bothered trawling through it to find examples, but Joe if you care to look there's plenty of borderline and not so borderline racism in there.

Not really a great look for ASF.


----------



## MrBurns

Ves said:


> General chat has been particularly bad this week.
> 
> I can't be bothered trawling through it to find examples, but Joe if you care to look there's plenty of borderline and not so borderline racism in there.
> 
> Not really a great look for ASF.




Islam is not a race.


----------



## Joe Blow

Ves said:


> General chat has been particularly bad this week.
> 
> I can't be bothered trawling through it to find examples, but Joe if you care to look there's plenty of borderline and not so borderline racism in there.
> 
> Not really a great look for ASF.




It's always a tough call. There is definitely a real culture shift occurring in Australia and I think that shutting down people for expressing extreme, minority or unpopular views is always a difficult decision to make. I'm never sure what is worse, censorship or allowing views that some find offensive to be posted. I'd be interested in what the ASF community thinks about this issue. Where should the line be drawn?

I'm not OK with people advocating violence or deliberately promoting hateful ideologies... but some discussions are difficult to have and some issues are difficult to face. But do we have the discussions, or sweep them under the carpet?

I would prefer that people adopt a nuanced rather than a black and white approach to issues, but I can't insist upon it. ASF is a microcosm of Australia and there are those from all points on the political spectrum here. Some voices are moderate and some less so. But that is nothing more than a reflection of the wider community.

The big question is, at what point does something become unacceptable? I struggle with this idea and tend not to take a heavy handed approach unless things really get out of control.


----------



## MrBurns

I wouldn't do anything much, if you have filters to pick up swearing ok but people usually self regulate.

If you want to stop people getting angry over things like Paris and letting off steam I don't think the forum would be as interesting or as popular


----------



## McLovin

Joe Blow said:


> It's always a tough call. There is definitely a real culture shift occurring in Australia and I think that shutting down people for expressing extreme, minority or unpopular views is always a difficult decision to make. I'm never sure what is worse, censorship or allowing views that some find offensive to be posted. I'd be interested in what the ASF community thinks about this issue. Where should the line be drawn?
> 
> I'm not OK with people advocating violence or deliberately promoting hateful ideologies... but some discussions are difficult to have and some issues are difficult to face. But do we have the discussions, or sweep them under the carpet?
> 
> I would prefer that people adopt a nuanced rather than a black and white approach to issues, but I can't insist upon it. ASF is a microcosm of Australia and there are those from all points on the political spectrum here. Some voices are moderate and some less so. But that is nothing more than a reflection of the wider community.
> 
> The big question is, at what point does something become unacceptable? I struggle with this idea and tend not to take a heavy handed approach unless things really get out of control.




Joe

The reality is that many people don't want to be part of a website that is as openly xenophobic as much of the "chat" in general chat.  Posters in general chat are entitled to their views and you're entitled to give them a platform to air those views, but I think you need to accept that it puts many people off this forum; many people who actually add a lot to the _stock_ part of Aussie Stock Forums.

The quality of share/trading/investing discussion on this forum is very good, but it's a shame that some of more erudite posters are leaving/have left because of general chat.

It really comes down to whether this is a politics or stock forum.


----------



## MrBurns

McLovin said:


> Joe
> 
> The reality is that many people don't want to be part of a website that is as openly xenophobic as much of the "chat" in general chat.  Posters in general chat are entitled to their views and you're entitled to give them a platform to air those views, but I think you need to accept that it puts many people off this forum; many people who actually add a lot to the _stock_ part of Aussie Stock Forums.
> 
> The quality of share/trading/investing discussion on this forum is very good, but it's a shame that some of more erudite posters are leaving/have left because of general chat.
> 
> It really comes down to whether this is a politics or stock forum.




Leaving because of general chat ? 
You must be joking I'm on a few forums and this one would be regarded as high end .
Anyone offended by the general forum here is too precious.


----------



## Joe Blow

McLovin said:


> Joe
> 
> The reality is that many people don't want to be part of a website that is as openly xenophobic as much of the "chat" in general chat.  Posters in general chat are entitled to their views and you're entitled to give them a platform to air those views, but I think you need to accept that it puts many people off this forum; many people who actually add a lot to the _stock_ part of Aussie Stock Forums.
> 
> The quality of share/trading/investing discussion on this forum is very good, but it's a shame that some of more erudite posters are leaving/have left because of general chat.
> 
> It really comes down to whether this is a politics or stock forum.




I'll be honest, I don't want to lose anyone. But I also don't want to lose the robust debate here at ASF. I have been a member of forums that functioned as political echo chambers where only left wing or right wing views were acceptable and those who dissented were banned or ganged up on and "run out of town". Forums that take this approach are inherently uninteresting because there is no real debate, just people agreeing with each other and mindlessly bashing political opponents.

There are limits to what I am prepared to accept but perhaps those limits are not as strict as some would prefer. On a personal level, I am a political moderate and I have never sought to mould ASF politically. It is simply the sum of those who make this place their home. Some represent the far left or far right but most are more moderate. I would ask that people do not let a small number of extremist voices drown out the ocean of political moderates that exist here.

There are alternatives to leaving. Two things I can suggest are to add those whose views you find offensive to your ignore list, or just ignore the *General Chat* forum entirely. 

It goes without saying that I would like to see more stock related chat. I have done everything in my power to encourage it short of begging, and I have probably even done that once or twice in the past. To those who want more stock chat, please post more in those threads. I would love to see more of it as well.

ASF is a stock market forum with a robust and active *General Chat* forum. I'm not sure that will ever change. I would definitely like to see more nuanced and moderate views expressed in *General Chat* threads, but I have never been big on censorship, nor have I tended to rule with an iron fist. I allow most debate within reason, but I believe very firmly in the marketplace of ideas and feel that those who make the best arguments will win people over to their way of thinking. If you disagree with someone then present your own ideas. Debate and discuss by all means. That's why online communities like ASF exist in the first place.


----------



## galumay

I must admit to be a lot less involved than I used to be, the xenophobia, racism and general spitefulness of those who seem to have become increasingly shrill make it somewhere I would rather not be.

Personally I think it needs a stronger hand of moderation, but that seems like a path you dont want to take Joe, which is entirely your right.


----------



## So_Cynical

Ok so there has been a little Islamophobia on the forum over the last 12 months, also been an upswing of terror related content in the news and social media, 80% of the general 'chat' is provided by a half dozen or so members that have little to no input in the stock threads.

All par for the course.


----------



## Quant

Joe Blow said:


> Managing Aussie Stock Forums is an extremely challenging task, made even more difficult by the strong growth ASF has experienced in recent times. Although we have a Code of Conduct it is still very difficult to get some members to abide by the site rules. This, slightly tongue-in-cheek list of commandments details the areas which create the most management problems for the moderators and myself.
> 
> If everyone abided by the following five commandments, ASF would become a more effective resource and a far more pleasant place for everyone to visit. There would also be far less work for the moderators and I to do, so please do everything you can to assist us in creating a friendly and constructive atmosphere here. Don't forget that the moderators are all volunteers who give their time to help maintain this community, so please always treat them with the appropriate respect... which leads me to the first commandment:
> 
> 
> *1. Thou shalt treat other ASF members with respect.*
> 
> In short that means no insults, name calling or personal attacks. It also means do not deliberately provoke others. We will no longer be allowing inflammatory threads that are intended solely to provoke and divide the ASF community. If you are starting a thread on a controversial topic please ensure that you frame the discussion in a constructive way. A little pot stirring is fine, but any post that directly insults another ASF member or encourages hatred of or vilifies a particular group of people will be removed and an infraction will be issued.
> 
> Those who continually demonstrate that they are unable to treat others respectfully or who persist in provoking others will have their ASF account permanently suspended.
> 
> 
> *2. Thou shalt not ramp.*
> 
> Ramping is the single largest problem ASF faces and it is the one we continue to struggle with on a daily basis. So exactly what is a "ramp" or "downramp"?
> 
> If you make an assertion in a post in a stock thread, it must be substantiated. It can be backed up with analysis, additional information or reasonable extrapolation. For example, if you make the claim that a company is undervalued, you must support that claim by presenting reasons for your point of view. Just saying that you believe it to be undervalued is not enough.
> 
> The most common ramping related "sins" we encounter are:
> 
> 
> Posting price targets or assigning arbitrary valuations with no accompanying analysis.
> Posting unsourced rumours from other stock forums or blogs. Rumours from the mainstream broadcast or print media are allowed as long as the source is identified.
> Posting information sourced from elsewhere without citing (or linking to) the original source material.
> People claiming to have unnamed "contacts" who are supplying them with information not available to the market.
> Posts with no meaningful content. If you are going to post in a stock thread, please ensure you have something of value to contribute.
> 
> Ramping is such an all pervasive problem that we require the assistance of all ASF members to assist us in keeping a lid on it. If you see a post that you believe to be a ramp (or downramp), please use the "Report a Post" feature to alert the moderators and me to it.
> 
> Some more detail on our ramping policy can be found here.
> 
> 
> *3. Thou shalt not ask for, nor offer, specific financial advice.*
> 
> This means you are not permitted to ask others how to invest your funds, nor can anyone advise someone else how to invest theirs. You may not refer to a stock as a "buy" or a "sell" nor can you "recommend" a stock in any way.
> 
> 
> *4. Thou shalt not spam your product, service or website.*
> 
> You are not permitted to post links to, or promote, your product, service or website in posts on the forums. However, you may put a simple link to it in your signature. No affiliate links, sales pitches or large font sizes please! Any links that the moderators or I feel is inappropriate will be promptly removed.
> 
> With the market looking bullish again the spammers, scammers and snake oil salesmen will be out in force attempting to spam their dodgy wares on ASF. Please report any spam posts as soon as you see them so we can stop these parasites in their tracks.
> 
> 
> *5. Think before thou posteth!*
> 
> It is amazing how many people simply do not think before they post. Here are some things to consider before you click the "Submit" button.
> 
> 
> If you are about to start a thread, have you done a search to see whether another active thread on the same topic already exists?
> Are you starting your thread in the correct forum?
> Is your post on topic?
> Is the content of your post potentially defamatory or in violation of any law?
> Have you proofread your post for spelling and/or grammatical errors?
> 
> Aussie Stock Forums is not Speaker's Corner in London's Hyde Park, it is an online community with rules that are designed to make it an enjoyable and useful place for everyone, irrespective of age, gender, investment experience, religion or political affiliation. While we encourage robust debate on almost any topic, I ask that people respect the limits I have outlined above. Please do not look for loopholes or to continually ride that fine line between what is acceptable and what isn't. Posting at ASF is not a right and we reserve the right to deny access to (or remove the posts of) those who demonstrate that they are incapable of respecting the website rules.
> 
> Any community, online or otherwise, is only as good as the sum of those who inhabit it, so please do your part to make ASF the positive and friendly place it is capable of being!
> 
> If you have any further questions or would like additional clarification of any of the commandments listed above, feel free to post any questions in this thread and I will respond to them.





Can i suggest no nicknames of ALL CAPS , there is one atm and shouldnt annoy me but it does no end , please please make it go away  ... I am sure the guy who owns it is oblivious to it but it screams " I am a ^&%$tard "


----------



## Joe Blow

Hi Quant, unfortunately I can see no obvious way to prevent this. However, I will look into it further. On the bright side, user names in all caps are exceedingly rare. I think sometimes it is accidental and not corrected.

If there is anyone with a user name in all caps who would like it changed, please contact me via PM and I will sort it out.


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## PZ99

There's no escape. It's a CAPitalist society 

(_I'll get my coat_....)


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## Joe Blow

Joe Blow said:


> *1. Thou shalt treat other ASF members with respect.*
> 
> In short that means no insults, name calling or personal attacks. It also means do not deliberately provoke others. We will no longer be allowing inflammatory threads that are intended solely to provoke and divide the ASF community. If you are starting a thread on a controversial topic please ensure that you frame the discussion in a constructive way. A little pot stirring is fine, but any post that directly insults another ASF member or encourages hatred of or vilifies a particular group of people will be removed and an infraction will be issued.
> 
> Those who continually demonstrate that they are unable to treat others respectfully or who persist in provoking others will have their ASF account permanently suspended.




I just thought I'd take a moment to remind everyone of ASF's first commandment. I'm doing this because I have noticed that it is not being respected by some in a number of threads in the General Chat forum.

Do not call others stupid, insult them, or deliberately provoke them. It is not acceptable conduct here.

It is healthy to disagree with others. We all have differing views and beliefs, but calling people names or insulting them creates a toxic atmosphere that makes this community an unpleasant place to be.

I should add that this reminder does not apply to the vast majority here. Most ASF members do engage in respectful discussion and debate. But a few don't. If you are one of those few then I would respectfully request that you reconsider the way you relate to others in this community.

Thank you and please have a wonderful evening.


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## barney

Joe Blow said:


> *Do not call others stupid, insult them, or deliberately provoke them*. It is not acceptable conduct here.
> *
> It is healthy to disagree with others.* We all have differing views and beliefs,*
> 
> but calling people names or insulting them creates a toxic atmosphere* that makes this community an unpleasant place to be.




Old Thread but I note the "Nun" was involved

Treating others with respect seems perfectly logical, and should be mandatory in a civilized world you'd think

Hiding behind the anonymity of cyber space just so you can put crapola on someone does no one any good methinks.

On the flip side …. a little banter to stir the pot with the correct intent can be quite brilliant if approached in the correct fashion …..

Everything in life is about the correct balance …… For eg. I'm getting older, so my weight is increasing (for some reason which I accept is likely totally reasonable) ….  Balance!!

PS … Call me fat at your peril!!


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## Zaxon

Joe Blow said:


> Do not call others stupid, insult them, or deliberately provoke them. It is not acceptable conduct here.
> 
> It is healthy to disagree with others. We all have differing views and beliefs, but calling people names or insulting them creates a toxic atmosphere that makes this community an unpleasant place to be.



I agree. The general chat is quite toxic a lot of the time, and is the main reason I rarely go near it. I'm sure it's also very off putting for newcomers who are assessing whether they want to make ASF their home.  The only silver lining to general chat is that I've now acquired a lot of new names for my ignore list based on how certain people attack others.


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## Cam019

Joe Blow said:


> I'm doing this because I have noticed that it is not being respected by some in a number of threads in the General Chat forum.



The benefits of ignoring the general chat forum cannot be overstated. Bliss.


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## barney

Zaxon said:


> I agree. The general chat is quite toxic a lot of the time, and is the main reason I rarely go near it. I'm sure it's also very off putting for newcomers who are assessing whether they want to make ASF their home.  The only silver lining to general chat is that I've now acquired a lot of new names for my ignore list based on how certain people attack others.




Hi "Zax" ……. how good is ANO going by the way

I must confess I've never really noticed too much personal attacking going on …. but then again I probably don't read a high % of General threads  ……

I wonder if a Thread dedicated to "calling people out" if they show disrespect  …. and then giving them an opportunity to explain the reason for their disrespectfulness might shed a different perspective on their point of view??

A little friction on a Forum is often a great catalyst for some great discussion and should not be discounted perhaps ….just thinking out loud here …. thoughts?


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## Joe Blow

Zaxon said:


> I agree. The general chat is quite toxic a lot of the time, and is the main reason I rarely go near it. I'm sure it's also very off putting for newcomers who are assessing whether they want to make ASF their home.




Agreed. In recent times I have seriously considered shutting down the General Chat forum entirely. While I haven't gone down that road yet, I am still considering placing restrictions on it.

In any case, I would urge people to avoid the General Chat forum and post in threads in other forums. ASF is a stock market forum, so let's have more stock chat, trading chat, and investment chat. That's what this community should be all about. Not bickering endlessly about politics and religion.


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## kahuna1

_A little friction on a Forum is often a great catalyst for some great discussion and should not be discounted perhaps ….just thinking out loud here …. thoughts?_

A good point ... unless you get trolled 30 times as I did on one thread. Making a judgement on how someone is dealing with say denial the earth is round verses it being flat is, what it is. When 99% believe in one case and your say discussing how beautiful the ROUND earth is, and that's the title of the thread, when someone comes in time and time again professing its FLAT, the earth ... and your presented time and time again with, well ... rubbish* to get a rise* is a favorite game trolls play.

Its not an intellectual discussion ... or a non meeting of the minds, its a game most of the time. Others may be faith based beliefs, others, when we are talking about history and factual history of say where a currency or stock was 1 year ago, even that at times is food for trolls.

Not sure their is a solution and to agree to disagree is fine, but when its a deliberate as it is at times presentation of non factual stuff, to support their case, something written by say tobacco and its benifits from the 1960's or even Uranium in the recent times and most publications come from lobby groups, today's world is complex.

I spent some time on various issues and say in 2007 shared 25 years of research and background on Nuclear stuff. Only to get back as gospel the USA Nuclear Industry lobby group stuff as being factual or even close to it. No amount of reason, pictures, reports, would change the stream of non factual pro Uranium stuff.

Quite often, this is the case. We look at a stock. Where do we get our information from ? Brokers ? Or can you pull apart a financial report and compare it to others in the industry ? As we sadly know, or should, most brokers and economists are awful advisors. Their job is to make money.

In 2000 as the NASDAQ peaked and there were over 8,000 stocks I think ... there were a mere 5 sell recommendations. It peaked at 5,000 and lost 70% prior to coming back, but a lot went bust.

Difficult the balance between the two on any chat room. I started in the industry in 1983 and WHAT I don't know ... is more than I ever knew. What I thought I knew .... DECREASES as time goes on. Some things however, are clearer with experience the hard way.

When someone takes the time to troll you just for kicks and put the opposing opinion, not theirs, not their 30 hours pulling apart say a USA payroll number or GDP one, but a cut and paste of some media article which will disagree with your effort, after a while and ... it takes a while ..  even I get annoyed.

I am not selling anything, sharing something ... for free ... I don't need or want anything. But its makes someones day complete to do it not just to me, but I do take the time with pests, to follow what they do on not just one thread but over a site and they are doing it on every thread they are on.


Internet is I suppose like that. We get all types and I must be more tolerant !!

Sorry for the ramble, but not sure we can cure any of it. Whilst I must be more tolerant, being baited and trolled is another matter. Sorry but opinions are opinions ... facts are facts ... the world is actually round.

Cant say that about many things and when someone said things that made me sick and made my skin crawl after Auckland .... Yep I told them so !! Guilty as charged. I was not baiting them, I was not angry. Just disgusted.

I must be more tolerant !! And use the ignore. Even in some disgraceful deliberate wind ups, I learnt a lot and thanked them for it at end of the discussion. Even flat earthers one can learn what makes them tick if they are just not pure trolls trying to get a bite whilst appearing to be polite.

A casual look or glance at a topic that has become more heated ... and you likely miss the sneaky smiling windups going on frustrating those trying to debate on an intelligent level being bombarded with theories about how flat the earth is. OR some even more topical beliefs we all have about religion and race and gender.

Some topics ... outside stocks are relevant ... energy .. tax ... trade ... and so on. Battery technology or various forms of energy and so on. Sadly a lot of other things come into play with even ordinary stocks. Monetary and fiscal policy ... which brings politics and so on ... 

All too hard .... will try and play nice.


----------



## barney

_[/QUOTE] A good point ... *unless you get trolled 30 times* as I did on one thread.
Some topics ... outside stocks are relevant ... energy .. tax ... trade ... and so on. Battery technology or various forms of energy and so on. Sadly a lot of other things come into play with even ordinary stocks. Monetary and fiscal policy ... which brings politics and so on ..._

_All too hard .... will try and play nice.[/QUOTE]_

Sorry to hear that you have experienced that @kahuna1  …… For the record I don't think I have read your posts before …. but for what its worth, you sound very intelligent …. Given that, you may well treat me as a lesser individual (JK ….. I'm obviously smarter than everybody )

Seriously, I'd say disregard anyone who can't be at least "semi reasonable" even if they disagree with your point of view on even the most controversial topics ……  Its not hard to disagree on some stuff, but its also not hard to be respectful of someone's difference of opinion …

Not so seriously .... As an example … My wife thinks she is always right …..

Interestingly enough, I actually also think she is always right, but it is my duty as a husband to disagree with her at least 20% of the time lest she gets an overly righteous and super imposed ego about her superiority  …

So therefore, I am in the crap 20% of the time even though I am obviously a near perfect husband  My life is tough

I doubt whatever I just said has any real substance … but it is late and I am currently not trading Forex so should be in bed asleep!


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## kahuna1

_but for what its worth, you sound very intelligent …. Given that, you may well treat me as a lesser individual (JK ….. I'm obviously smarter than everybody )
_
Blushing, but sadly, the older that I get the dumber I know I am. 
Opinions or views and beliefs are one thing, how we arrive at them is another. Of course if someone is of the opinion via their logic and beliefs that the world was built in 7 days as some do, its impossible and in fact futile to go and try to convince them otherwise, I attempt to present a case, and leave it at that.

Often, its upsetting them, the presentation of a science based or logic based belief, and its against their core values and as such, again nothing to do with intelligence, of which I have little, to be of a differing opinion. Speaking as I tend to do of the future, and this I think is key for me, prediction of something its not possible to say with any certainty that you are correct.

With any prediction, stocks, markets, commodities or even more topical things like politics, the debate is about something, that may or may not occur in the future. People will either take it or leave it. Discussion and input are welcomed, well, most of the time. If as I have over many years taken the time to enter red hot debates over various things, with a view, often totally opposite of the current wisdom being touted. 

I do these things, NOT to get a raise, but having examined others views, on what at times appears to be a fanatical fan thread, and finding an examination of say accounts, assets and possibility of success to be zero, and likely the stock is a scam of fools gold, present the logic. Some classic stories over the years of even ASIC doing its job with say a few stocks I bothered to take it higher. One turned out was insider selling and the other, one person, on Hot copper with 6 nics spreading rubbish. Bother were shams and lost 95% of value. Others similar and for my rewards, death threats, abuse, phone calls, threats of litigation and so on. Such at times is life.

Admitting your wrong, taking a decision to STOP the pain despite your beliefs or values, is a personal journey. As a trader, investor all my life, the best decisions I often take are BEING wrong. Not dwelling on the loss, taking some wisdom from it, if needed and learning.

Speaking about a MACRO based, valuation based approach to most topics, one based upon what occurred in the past, what drives markets and stocks, and NOT following the crowd just for the sake of it, often seems idiotic. I ran and have run on and off a thread on other sites and here about cycles and its forever speaking about an OPINION, one based upon science and logic and valuation and past history. People either take it, or leave it. Sometimes its seemingly calling for impossible things. Amusing and often heated at the time when your late 2000 trying to hose down a red hot NASDQ or late 2007 into 2008 trying to explain why a markets going to fall 40%. It turned out at 56% fall ... 

History often teaches lessons in finance, and also life, which we forget, or are made to forget so someone can sell a stock that longer term is worthless and worth 10 cents and we buy it at $3-. Whilst not hoping to get a hard based valuation based approach as a filter to any stock .... so wrong ... it happens. Taking the loss ... at some set level is admitting your WRONG and moving on. You missed something, the directors lie to you, and in modern times, technology can make things like horse and buggy worthless seemingly over a few years with the invention of cars. In modern times its almost overnight or 12 months the value of something which was around for 50 years, overnight is worth half.

It is an interesting if not fascinating life I have enjoyed. Being right, or stubborn, or pigheaded, gets one no where. I listen and have been gifted by doing so, even to the most illogical of arguments. Non scientific fan based ones or religious ones, or people who just like arguing or the pure trolls who do so for pleasure.  In the end, you have taken all you can via intelligent discussion with others, and leave the flat earth trolls alone. Its not arrogance or needing to be right in saying this. If something has occurred 100 times previously, or a million times, and a person is arguing as often occurs, THIS time ... its going to be different. It sadly as Einstein said, insanity to do an experiment 100 times and expect a different result. 

If someone chooses to say argue against a mere chemical reaction governed by LAWS of science such as endothermic and exothermic reactions, as does occur ... I listen as to why of course. I point out that its been done 1000 times if not a billion times prior to this with the same result ... and your actually arguing it is wrong because this time it will be different, well, I try to be polite but when bombarded with this logic, it becomes tedious.

Strangely most things in finance are not new. They are driven by various forces. Sometimes its yep the human side and logic leaves the farm, often I might add with the assistance of stock promoters, sometimes driven by greed and stupidity. The underlying valuation effects however are constant and non negotiable and unwavering. A company makes a product at a cost of $100- and sells it for $90, no matter how good the product is and the stock going to a billion dollar valuation, the stock is WORTHLESS. As a group, interest rates, tax and various forms of both monetary and fiscal policy will always dictate valuation of ANYTHING. Again, something often forgotten in the zero percent world of interest rates. 
_
_
*Interestingly enough, I actually also think she is always right, but it is my duty as a husband to disagree with her at least 20% of the time lest she gets an overly righteous and super imposed ego about her superiority …

So therefore, I am in the crap 20% of the time even though I am obviously a near perfect husband My life is tough*


She MUST be obeyed !! I love it and women are a gift as is love. Sh is sadly superior as are all women to males and I suspect if we had more females running the world we would be far better off. 

I certainly am the last person to argue with a woman in full flow. Yes dear is the correct response and only correct one.


----------



## kahuna1

_but for what its worth, you sound very intelligent …. Given that, you may well treat me as a lesser individual (JK ….. I'm obviously smarter than everybody )
_
Blushing, but sadly, the older that I get the dumber I know I am. 
Opinions or views and beliefs are one thing, how we arrive at them is another. Of course if someone is of the opinion via their logic and beliefs that the world was built in 7 days as some do, its impossible and in fact futile to go and try to convince them otherwise, I attempt to present a case, and leave it at that.

Often, its upsetting them, the presentation of a science based or logic based belief, and its against their core values and as such, again nothing to do with intelligence, of which I have little, to be of a differing opinion. Speaking as I tend to do of the future, and this I think is key for me, prediction of something its not possible to say with any certainty that you are correct.

With any prediction, stocks, markets, commodities or even more topical things like politics, the debate is about something, that may or may not occur in the future. People will either take it or leave it. Discussion and input are welcomed, well, most of the time. If as I have over many years taken the time to enter red hot debates over various things, with a view, often totally opposite of the current wisdom being touted. 

I do these things, NOT to get a raise, but having examined others views, on what at times appears to be a fanatical fan thread, and finding an examination of say accounts, assets and possibility of success to be zero, and likely the stock is a scam of fools gold, present the logic. Some classic stories over the years of even ASIC doing its job with say a few stocks I bothered to take it higher. One turned out was insider selling and the other, one person, on Hot copper with 6 nics spreading rubbish. Bother were shams and lost 95% of value. Others similar and for my rewards, death threats, abuse, phone calls, threats of litigation and so on. Such at times is life.

Admitting your wrong, taking a decision to STOP the pain despite your beliefs or values, is a personal journey. As a trader, investor all my life, the best decisions I often take are BEING wrong. Not dwelling on the loss, taking some wisdom from it, if needed and learning.

Speaking about a MACRO based, valuation based approach to most topics, one based upon what occurred in the past, what drives markets and stocks, and NOT following the crowd just for the sake of it, often seems idiotic. I ran and have run on and off a thread on other sites and here about cycles and its forever speaking about an OPINION, one based upon science and logic and valuation and past history. People either take it, or leave it. Sometimes its seemingly calling for impossible things. Amusing and often heated at the time when your late 2000 trying to hose down a red hot NASDQ or late 2007 into 2008 trying to explain why a markets going to fall 40%. It turned out at 56% fall ... 

History often teaches lessons in finance, and also life, which we forget, or are made to forget so someone can sell a stock that longer term is worthless and worth 10 cents and we buy it at $3-. Whilst not hoping to get a hard based valuation based approach as a filter to any stock .... so wrong ... it happens. Taking the loss ... at some set level is admitting your WRONG and moving on. You missed something, the directors lie to you, and in modern times, technology can make things like horse and buggy worthless seemingly over a few years with the invention of cars. In modern times its almost overnight or 12 months the value of something which was around for 50 years, overnight is worth half.

It is an interesting if not fascinating life I have enjoyed. Being right, or stubborn, or pigheaded, gets one no where. I listen and have been gifted by doing so, even to the most illogical of arguments. Non scientific fan based ones or religious ones, or people who just like arguing or the pure trolls who do so for pleasure.  In the end, you have taken all you can via intelligent discussion with others, and leave the flat earth trolls alone. Its not arrogance or needing to be right in saying this. If something has occurred 100 times previously, or a million times, and a person is arguing as often occurs, THIS time ... its going to be different. It sadly as Einstein said, insanity to do an experiment 100 times and expect a different result. 

If someone chooses to say argue against a mere chemical reaction governed by LAWS of science such as endothermic and exothermic reactions, as does occur ... I listen as to why of course. I point out that its been done 1000 times if not a billion times prior to this with the same result ... and your actually arguing it is wrong because this time it will be different, well, I try to be polite but when bombarded with this logic, it becomes tedious.

Strangely most things in finance are not new. They are driven by various forces. Sometimes its yep the human side and logic leaves the farm, often I might add with the assistance of stock promoters, sometimes driven by greed and stupidity. The underlying valuation effects however are constant and non negotiable and unwavering. A company makes a product at a cost of $100- and sells it for $90, no matter how good the product is and the stock going to a billion dollar valuation, the stock is WORTHLESS. As a group, interest rates, tax and various forms of both monetary and fiscal policy will always dictate valuation of ANYTHING. Again, something often forgotten in the zero percent world of interest rates. 
_
_
*Interestingly enough, I actually also think she is always right, but it is my duty as a husband to disagree with her at least 20% of the time lest she gets an overly righteous and super imposed ego about her superiority …

So therefore, I am in the crap 20% of the time even though I am obviously a near perfect husband My life is tough*


She MUST be obeyed !! I love it and women are a gift as is love. Sh is sadly superior as are all women to males and I suspect if we had more females running the world we would be far better off. 

I certainly am the last person to argue with a woman in full flow. Yes dear is the correct response and only correct one.


----------



## galumay

Cam019 said:


> The benefits of ignoring the general chat forum cannot be overstated. Bliss.




+eleventy.


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## barney

kahuna1 said:


> the older that I get the dumber I know I am.
> 
> prediction of something its not possible to say with any certainty that you are correct.
> 
> the best decisions I often take are BEING wrong.   admitting your WRONG and moving on.
> 
> Being right, or stubborn, or pigheaded, gets one no where.
> 
> I listen and have been gifted by doing so, even to the most illogical of arguments.
> _
> _
> women are a gift as is love.  I suspect if we had more females running the world we would be far better off.




Thanks for the response …. I have posted a few excerpts from your post above for those who like to skim read

Pretty much agree with 90% of your assessments   

In a nutshell …. "Listen, learn, and take responsibility for our actions."  Cheers.


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## kahuna1

Yep,

Take ownership of your actions. Listen to others no matter how they may initially appear. Try and examine their position and how they arrived there. Beyond agreeing to disagree, becoming strident or trying to convince someone on the spot is a big waste of time. Even getting or changing others opinions is actually irrelevant, we are what we are. Sharing how and why you hold one view is to be shared as is the receipt of someone else's view. All the the last one up to a point where its .... a game on their part.

Have fun.


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## Smurf1976

Joe Blow said:


> Agreed. In recent times I have seriously considered shutting down the General Chat forum entirely. While I haven't gone down that road yet, I am still considering placing restrictions on it.
> 
> In any case, I would urge people to avoid the General Chat forum and post in threads in other forums. ASF is a stock market forum, so let's have more stock chat, trading chat, and investment chat. That's what this community should be all about. Not bickering endlessly about politics and religion.



Just my thoughts:

The first and foremost reason I visit this forum is for the "heads up" sort of posts relating to individual stocks. More analysis is always better but it doesn't overly bother me if it's lacking since it's still a "heads up" that something's going on and I should be taking a look at it myself.

Second is posts not relating to specific stocks but which have investment potential or implications for multiple companies are still of interest despite some of those being in the "General Chat" section. As examples I'll cite:

*Discussion about the taxation policies of the government or credible opposition parties (relevant to all investors).

*Issues with Boeing 737 aircraft (could turn out to be relevant to all airlines and is of relevance to anyone who invests in the US market and owns Boeing shares).

*The potential mass adoption of electric vehicles (affects pretty much every company involved with the automotive industry, the supply of conventional vehicle fuels, the entire electricity supply chain and has relevance to the producers of commodities used heavily in those vehicles - all up that's quite a number of ASX listed stocks including a few blue chips).

*Retail sales, shops closing etc (relevant to the companies involved, their direct competitors and if there's enough of them then it becomes relevant to shopping center owners, some of which are listed, and so on).

*House prices and general economics (directly and indirectly affects many stocks and of course owning property is itself an investment option, albeit not one that's the specific focus of this forum).

Cars, aviation, taxation, retail, houses - all "big" stuff really and it has an impact. It seems reasonable to me that they'd be topics here unless the aim is to turn ASF into a strict stock picking forum and that's it.

Third I'd put the "harmless" sort off topic stuff. Travel photos, someone has a new dog or went to a concert, whatever. Harmless in my view so long as it's a minor sideline to the main purpose of the forum. I've never seen any online forum that doesn't have a place where posts like that would be acceptable.

Fourth and the big one is politics and religion for the sake of politics and religion and which is discussing topics of no relevance to any ASX listed company or to investing in general.

That's where the problem is in my view and there are multiple reasons for that.

First, the very nature of discussion is based on "beliefs" and I think it's fair to say that concept is somewhat at odds with the purpose of the forum.

Second is the sheer volume of such discussion. If I'm looking for all the new posts on specific stocks then it's one thing to have some stuff about unsafe aircraft and taxation policies mixed in, there's a limited number of such subjects so as long as they're contained to a single thread on that topic they can't really crowd out the stock posts, but it's another thing entirely when literally the whole page comes up full of nothing other than multiple threads about politics and religion none of which are relevant to even one listed company.

Third is that such posts tend to be a magnet for rudeness and so on and that is a huge turn off.

Looking through the 12 most recent threads in General Chat, some observations:

1. Is Global Warming becoming unstoppable?

2. A perspective of Racism amd White Privilege in the US

3. Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

4. Electric cars?

5. Big Pharma and Ethics = Oxymoron?

6. Sell WA to China

7. Chinese influence in Australia

8. Useless Labor Party

9: 50% of managers could be psychopaths: research

10. Peter Dutton - The Great Pretender?

11. Boeing 737 Max: Death Aircraft

12. Thread: No more than 5 words per post and doesn't annoy others

Now I haven't read every post in all those but looking at the title and a brief look at content:

*4, 5, 6, 9 and 11 have at least some relevance to ASX listed stocks, investing or business. I don't see them as out of place on a stick market forum.

*12 is totally off topic but harmless (note I haven't read the whole thread).

*1, 3, 8, 10 = religion and politics. I've included climate change in that category since whilst I do see it as a problem, any investment potential mostly relates to things covered in other threads (eg electric cars or renewable energy) and the issue is mainstream political more than practically any other issue in recent years.

*2 & 7 project absolutely the wrong image in my view.

If ASF was my site then, for purely business reasons, I would not permit threads with those titles 2 & 7.

That is not a comment on the subject and in principle I support freedom of expression. From a purely business perspective though, society seems to have become far more conservative over the past ~20 years. It's not the 1980's "you have a right to free speech" world anymore, we're in an era now where the mere mention of some subjects provokes outrage and, from a business perspective, there's no reason for a stock market forum to go there. It's not going to gain even one new member but it will upset someone most likely. All loss, no gain.

The other political stuff I wouldn't ban but I do agree that it would be best for ASF's purpose and being focused if the number of threads were limited and at no time should become the dominant focus of the forum.

Fifth is the rudeness and so on.

A point I think everyone should remember is that we are all anonymous on this forum, with a few exceptions we do not know who each other personally in the offline world.

It's one thing to relate to your friends in the offline world in a certain way knowing how they perceive things and the relationship you have with them. It's very different when you're posting something that will be read by many, virtually all of whom know little about you. What's fine said face to face to someone you've known for 30 years can be taken very differently by someone else just reading it with no background knowledge.

Everyone should thus be polite and respectful at all times in my view. Regardless of the content of the post as such, once it turns to what looks to be rude then that's a massive turn off. Maybe there's some background that you actually know the other person you're responding to or whatever and they're fine with it but the other 99% of those reading only know what's in front of them.

Public communication 101 = speak to your audience. Whatever the audience walks away thinking you said, you're now stuck with that and if it's not the intended message then you, not them, is to blame for that. A point that someone drummed into me many years ago and which has served me well ever since.

I've never put anyone on "ignore" but there are a couple of posters to whom I give minimal credibility in practice yes and that applies to any post stocks or otherwise . Reason = repeated rudeness, trolling and so on casts them in a poor light.

There are people who are pedantic and argue the point for the sake of arguing and there are people who are pragmatic and who engage in the discussion in an effort to ascertain the facts or options. The latter are the ones who get things done in the real world.


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## kahuna1

Smurf1976 said:


> There are people who are pedantic and argue the point for the sake of arguing and there are people who are pragmatic and who engage in the discussion in an effort to ascertain the facts or options. The latter are the ones who get things done in the real world.




Great post ... better than my effort. As someone who made a mistake with one of the thread you mentioned, also one not there, joining in only to find quite extreme views posted. Whilst I did express my disgust at them, openly and in light of recent events in NZ, I do not and cannot take them back. I would agree, it should not have been on this site.

As to Climate change, for me, and I am a very big macro economics person, I doubt there is in the very long term any issue that will dominate our investment over the next 100 years more than impact of climate change. It is beyond any rational debate that its occurring, with 97% of scientists  in agreement and those who are not half are in the employ of the oil and coal industry. Again, not wishing to debate it ... your quote ..*There are people who are pedantic and argue the point for the sake of arguing ... *hit the nail upon the head.

The following are 200 plus scientific organizations that hold the position that Climate Change has been caused by human action: http://www.opr.ca.gov/facts/list-of-scientific-organizations.html

Its not complete and only about 200 ... but debate stopped a long time ago. When 50,000 scientists signed off on a paper at the IPCC and 200 Nobel prize winners in 2018 , and serious debate, and in this debating that the Great Barrier Reef is 25% of the size it was in 1985 is NOT possible, yet as you say ... its not a positive contribution to quote half baked rubbish. Then again, and I say this with respect, the world is NOT all that it seems. We have and not to be political but one must, a President of the USA who has denied it exists. I might add he has gone through and picked trade wars, tried open war, slashed humanitarian funding by the USA to less than 50% ... pulled out of the Untied nations efforts in 5 different areas ... and not to form debate or discussion, is quite openly racist and lies every 20 minutes.

The way I look at the world and have been quite accurate in the large MACRO global trends and able to see issues coming and where things top out, is by NOT looking just at the merits of a single company or industry but way way beyond that. The real drivers of the overall index and VALUATION of any asset are a long list of things. Number one is Interest rates, then Taxation and then GDP and Inflation and on an on this list goes into areas like policy and deficits and debts and so on.

Some things, and all things come at a cost. I will sound strange in saying this, but for now, USA is trading human life and welfare for gains in the stock market and money flowing to the top 1%. Again a can of worms, and how does one express that without triggering a lot of alarms in some ? USA with its baby boomers retiring has chosen, with a pathetic healthcare system, to NOT fund it. As such, companies now pay 21% tax,  and the tax of the USA unlike the rest pf the world is 30% of GPD verse our own at 38% of GDP when GST and super are included .... and near 40% of GDP for the EU. The cost of course with NO healthcare is life expectancy. Quite clearly shown in their numbers, but even they are NOT and deliberately not correct, again, a contention ... but telling me Hispanics and Latinos with 20% uninsured in the USA live 3 years loner than say Peru with a great healthcare system that is *free* and universal and one see's the doctor 4 times MORE in Peru than the USA, medication costs 25% of the USA and so on. The real life expectancy is even worse than the terrible state reported by USA right now.

Confronting and whilst I would not debate this issue, it would be stupid to do so, the world has and is not all that it appears when say a recent study in the USA via Kaiser followed 6.2 million cancer sufferers and 2 years latter 42% had gone bankrupt due to the idiotic corrupt prices they pay when sick, number one cause of bankruptcy ? is Medical bills. In fact, 80% of all old people end up with NO assets, BROKE and on Medicaid which is emergency free medical care which AT BEST .. is HALF the service or our Own Medicare. HALF.

All of this can of worms is mixed up with multinationals not paying tax HERE to the tune of 30 billion a year, likely 26 billion in 2019 thanks to some new laws, but the likes of Microsoft with Australian sales of 3.6 billion, ONLY booking 600 million here, not paying GST on 3 billion and  thats 300 million a year stolen let alone profits at 25% margin on 3.6 billion should mean 270 million TAX on 900 million profit earnt from sales here .... so 570 million stolen ,,, STOLEN from our economy by one company a year. Google makes Microsoft look HONEST. APPLE is even worse bu at least pays GST.

Again all relevant ,...

USA equities in short are on fire as they bring back 4 trillion in unpaid overseas profit, NOT just from Australia, the WORLD .... and its why their stocks rally rally rally. Its why ours and other nations DONT. Nations that care for their people .... and pay for universal healthcare ... one is operating with the overall welfare of all in mind ,,, paying around 40% of GDP in tax and the other ... USA ignores the pain of mainly non white 140 million or so and pays 30% of GDP in tax. I might add with a healthcare system costing RIGHT now DOUBLE and close to triple any other nation and at 20% of GDP it covers at best 70% verses say Canada's system or Mexico ... and if it went 100% cover at current costs, an absurd 30% of GDP on healthcare would be spent.

One is profiting via shortening human life and again not a debate ... the USA and its equities rule the global valuations and this current state of affairs transcends what one would normally call pure economics or share related matters. It is however .... WHAT dictates how we value stocks and all assets. Change is coming to the USA and whether in 2020 or 2024, universal healthcare will occur. Sadly likely with some serious disruption at a civil level let alone the economic impact of making drug makers, medical insurers and a lot of others in the USA worthless or worth 40% of current values.

Same on climate issues, whilst a very long thing, the IPCC is in agreement that 65cm MINIMUM sea rise by 2100, likely its 85 cm or more and USA right now Miami is sending 500 million on a system to pump water out of the city, much like New Orleans which is below sea level. Good luck to both.

In the meantime, don't fret. *SP 500 is about to break NEW HIGHS* and 2,920, I suspect goes as then the 3,000 target does ... and for me a perfect stopping place would be 3,150. All driven by, well things that have a cost, a cast that cannot go on, stealing tax off the rest of the world at 1-2% of GDP ... will stop and do so within 10 years and where would Apple be without a tax haven ? Or Google ...

Whilst this may seem broad, Joe knows who I am, which is irrelevant, but the very best managers, funds in the world, you will see this sort of very broad look at the world as  whole on risks. Let alone the not mentioned issue of wealth inequality in the USA which has the lower 80% of people with a mere 9% of wealth v 24% in 1980. It cannot go on. Australia at 30% for the middle class ... v 9% speaks as to WHY life here is not a debate whether I can afford to buy pills or go to the doctor. Australia is utopia. 

Sorry, digressed ... hope this helps Joe, and maybe others with their views and thoughts.

Thanks for hitting the proverbial nail on the head. Some just like to argue and be TROLLS is what I would say. Sadly, being human I do have boundaries and when someone says something disgusting, I tell them so. No apologies, just a lesson learnt not to go onto any religion based or topical thread. As to suffering fools and imbeciles ? I am one ... NUMBER one ... 

*There are people who are pedantic and argue the point for the sake of arguing *

One which I don't mind. A robust discussion is what gets the topic fully open and often we both LEARN from each other.

There is however a deliberate TROLL type ... one that in today's world of lobby groups paid for by industry which like say the Tobacco industry of old quoted for a long time SMOKING was good for you.
Even large institutions are NOW in the USA utterly unreliable and in this I mean MASSIVE ones and when someone quotes back an article from a lobby group that factually is absurd ... easily seen to be so ... and its done time and time again, sometimes in the past it has been a Public relations firm doing the posting, in some cases the MD of a company .... I kid you not ...

On this and some food for thought ... the IMF and the World bank ... both sadly needing 85% of votes to do anything ,... and the USA has 16% voting power ... hold massive sway. In their case, looking at life expectancy numbers they publish, even USA official ones at 78.6 years life average ...  on both they have the USA always at even official number PLUS 1-2 years .... so its 80 ... when the real number using EU or Australian methodology is likely 75 years, a SHOCKER .... but when you go to other nations ...  and last time I looked our OWN life expectancy was 82.6 or so years but according to UP to date numbers via these supposed sites ... was 81  for Australia and 80 for USA gap being 1 year.

Even via official SOURCE data one is 78.6 years verses 82.6 years ...*official gap 4 years* .... using identical methodology in measurement its 75 verses 82.6 years, ONE is rising .... one is falling like a stone but of course NOT being reported.  Real gap is 7.6 years UP ... 7.6 years since USA adopted drip down economics and bugger the poor.

Even tax collected, IMF says we collect 27% of GDP in tax ... when in fact its 38% ... they FORGOT to include GST ... and USA run its main old age super via Social Security and we run it VIA the tax office as well but its not allowed as we all know to be touched till age 67. One makes the USA non collection of tax look ok ...

On and on I could go with what now is reported as factual via official sources yet is NOT factual and easily seen as non factual. Again whilst seemingly outside the NORMAL discussion of stocks and shares. it is what WILL drive the overall valuation in the future.

Bottom line the USA will get universal healthcare sometime soon. The non taxing of the top 1% in the USA will stop as a result. Either that or the rest die age 65, which has implications as well. NON payment of tax overseas and even domestically to the tune of 21% corporate tax and GDP v TAX of  a mere 30% on GDP and ignore the suffering of the lower 80%. THis is not a thing that has a time frame that can go on for more than 5-10 years. The lack of assets and income in the lower 80% of USA, and again our stocks are somewhat driven via the USA index's .... cannot continue and taking 24% of wealth in the lower 80% in 1980, not a great number but a good one ... to 9% now in 2019 ... and it heading into the top 1% in the USA ...  bottom line there is NO more to give. The lower 80% have a mere 9% LEFT .... 

Australia is utopia and WE have no idea. Our wealth is fairly well spread and having a middle class with 30% of all assets* is as good as it gets !!* We get sick, we go to the doctor. We DON'T GO BROKE when we get sick ... we have a decent and HUMANE welfare system. USA has none of this and some trying to change it are labelled Socialists or Communists for wanting ... FREE or low cost healthcare and decent wages. So too massive amounts earning under $10- an hour when health insurance for the family costs $600- a month is the NORM for the lower 50%.

 A big intertwined MACRO bag of worms. Let alone the human aspects of this. Looking at the USA as someone who lived there for a long time, who loves the average American, things they do .... debates they have that SEEM to be about issues we have here, are none of the issues we face in our lovely nation.

Comparing one to the other, is hard, but investment wise, the direction of the USA and its markets is WHAT dictates world asset values to a great extent. We enter the end of the importance of the USA in all ways. EU is bigger and eventually will take a bigger role. Let alone China and then India and so on.

Basically, if one goes out .... all of it touches on many non investment type threads. If one is NOT aware of a polarization of politics in the USA, sadly one should be. Times they are a changing.

I have no idea how Joe deals with this ,,,, or at times heated discussions that get out of hand. I do understand  SOME who quote a 1960 tobacco industry paper on the benifits of smoking are being honest. Some just like to argue ...* SOME and its a deliberate trolling type, do it for kicks*. Removing say half of what I wrote on 15 various investment sites and scientific ones over the course of 25 years is what would occur with too much restraint, as to content. No religion ,,, is fine ... until .. race and religion and economics get mixed together as they are in the modern world.

Food for Joe to think upon, or not. I have no bright ideas, sadly I know how stupid I am in this brave new world. Funny thing is, its all occurred prior to this and a cycle occurs, yet again .... we are at one extreme in the case of USA and many other issues.


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## rederob

Smurf1976 said:


> First, the very nature of discussion is based on "beliefs" and I think it's fair to say that concept is somewhat at odds with the purpose of the forum.



So posting on a stock with views on its future price is other than belief?
Please enlighten me.


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## SirRumpole

Nice post Smurf.

I totally agree that there are a lot more things that affect the wider economy and the share market is a reactor to these things, not a determinant.

These inputs should be subjects for discussion imo, but if the site owner wants to concentrate narrowly on the effects of the inputs on the share market ie on share prices, then that's his call.

Some threads eg SSM, religion etc were probably over done, including by me but hopefully all the things that could be said on those topics have already been said so those threads will slow down.

Global warming is relevant imv, if it exists (and I believe it does) then it will have a major effect on the global economy. Insurance companies may well go out of business , but renewable energy, insulation and aircon  and waste recycling companies not to mention electric cars and batteries will benefit.

PS your analysis of the electricity market have been classics and not to be missed. They probably relate to the share prices of the elcos in the long term so they are relevant.


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## Ann

Smurf1976 said:


> Just my thoughts:
> 
> The first and foremost reason I visit this forum is for the "heads up" sort of posts relating to individual stocks. More analysis is always better but it doesn't overly bother me if it's lacking since it's still a "heads up" that something's going on and I should be taking a look at it myself.
> 
> Second is posts not relating to specific stocks but which have investment potential or implications for multiple companies are still of interest despite some of those being in the "General Chat" section. As examples I'll cite:
> 
> *Discussion about the taxation policies of the government or credible opposition parties (relevant to all investors).
> 
> *Issues with Boeing 737 aircraft (could turn out to be relevant to all airlines and is of relevance to anyone who invests in the US market and owns Boeing shares).
> 
> *The potential mass adoption of electric vehicles (affects pretty much every company involved with the automotive industry, the supply of conventional vehicle fuels, the entire electricity supply chain and has relevance to the producers of commodities used heavily in those vehicles - all up that's quite a number of ASX listed stocks including a few blue chips).
> 
> *Retail sales, shops closing etc (relevant to the companies involved, their direct competitors and if there's enough of them then it becomes relevant to shopping center owners, some of which are listed, and so on).
> 
> *House prices and general economics (directly and indirectly affects many stocks and of course owning property is itself an investment option, albeit not one that's the specific focus of this forum).
> 
> Cars, aviation, taxation, retail, houses - all "big" stuff really and it has an impact. It seems reasonable to me that they'd be topics here unless the aim is to turn ASF into a strict stock picking forum and that's it.
> 
> Third I'd put the "harmless" sort off topic stuff. Travel photos, someone has a new dog or went to a concert, whatever. Harmless in my view so long as it's a minor sideline to the main purpose of the forum. I've never seen any online forum that doesn't have a place where posts like that would be acceptable.
> 
> Fourth and the big one is politics and religion for the sake of politics and religion and which is discussing topics of no relevance to any ASX listed company or to investing in general.
> 
> That's where the problem is in my view and there are multiple reasons for that.
> 
> First, the very nature of discussion is based on "beliefs" and I think it's fair to say that concept is somewhat at odds with the purpose of the forum.
> 
> Second is the sheer volume of such discussion. If I'm looking for all the new posts on specific stocks then it's one thing to have some stuff about unsafe aircraft and taxation policies mixed in, there's a limited number of such subjects so as long as they're contained to a single thread on that topic they can't really crowd out the stock posts, but it's another thing entirely when literally the whole page comes up full of nothing other than multiple threads about politics and religion none of which are relevant to even one listed company.
> 
> Third is that such posts tend to be a magnet for rudeness and so on and that is a huge turn off.
> 
> Looking through the 12 most recent threads in General Chat, some observations:
> 
> 1. Is Global Warming becoming unstoppable?
> 
> 2. A perspective of Racism amd White Privilege in the US
> 
> 3. Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical
> 
> 4. Electric cars?
> 
> 5. Big Pharma and Ethics = Oxymoron?
> 
> 6. Sell WA to China
> 
> 7. Chinese influence in Australia
> 
> 8. Useless Labor Party
> 
> 9: 50% of managers could be psychopaths: research
> 
> 10. Peter Dutton - The Great Pretender?
> 
> 11. Boeing 737 Max: Death Aircraft
> 
> 12. Thread: No more than 5 words per post and doesn't annoy others
> 
> Now I haven't read every post in all those but looking at the title and a brief look at content:
> 
> *4, 5, 6, 9 and 11 have at least some relevance to ASX listed stocks, investing or business. I don't see them as out of place on a stick market forum.
> 
> *12 is totally off topic but harmless (note I haven't read the whole thread).
> 
> *1, 3, 8, 10 = religion and politics. I've included climate change in that category since whilst I do see it as a problem, any investment potential mostly relates to things covered in other threads (eg electric cars or renewable energy) and the issue is mainstream political more than practically any other issue in recent years.
> 
> *2 & 7 project absolutely the wrong image in my view.
> 
> If ASF was my site then, for purely business reasons, I would not permit threads with those titles 2 & 7.
> 
> That is not a comment on the subject and in principle I support freedom of expression. From a purely business perspective though, society seems to have become far more conservative over the past ~20 years. It's not the 1980's "you have a right to free speech" world anymore, we're in an era now where the mere mention of some subjects provokes outrage and, from a business perspective, there's no reason for a stock market forum to go there. It's not going to gain even one new member but it will upset someone most likely. All loss, no gain.
> 
> The other political stuff I wouldn't ban but I do agree that it would be best for ASF's purpose and being focused if the number of threads were limited and at no time should become the dominant focus of the forum.
> 
> Fifth is the rudeness and so on.
> 
> A point I think everyone should remember is that we are all anonymous on this forum, with a few exceptions we do not know who each other personally in the offline world.
> 
> It's one thing to relate to your friends in the offline world in a certain way knowing how they perceive things and the relationship you have with them. It's very different when you're posting something that will be read by many, virtually all of whom know little about you. What's fine said face to face to someone you've known for 30 years can be taken very differently by someone else just reading it with no background knowledge.
> 
> Everyone should thus be polite and respectful at all times in my view. Regardless of the content of the post as such, once it turns to what looks to be rude then that's a massive turn off. Maybe there's some background that you actually know the other person you're responding to or whatever and they're fine with it but the other 99% of those reading only know what's in front of them.
> 
> Public communication 101 = speak to your audience. Whatever the audience walks away thinking you said, you're now stuck with that and if it's not the intended message then you, not them, is to blame for that. A point that someone drummed into me many years ago and which has served me well ever since.
> 
> I've never put anyone on "ignore" but there are a couple of posters to whom I give minimal credibility in practice yes and that applies to any post stocks or otherwise . Reason = repeated rudeness, trolling and so on casts them in a poor light.
> 
> There are people who are pedantic and argue the point for the sake of arguing and there are people who are pragmatic and who engage in the discussion in an effort to ascertain the facts or options. The latter are the ones who get things done in the real world.




Superb analyses as always Smurf!

For many years I had no interest what-so-ever in General Chat. They were just headings that popped up and then disappeared. However when one looks closer there is so much in General Chat that relates directly to stocks as Smurf has said. I have broadened my horizons and now see how a flow one way or another will directly affect the stockmarket. Perhaps Joe could get an Ignore button for General Chat, in fact for all sections in the new update. Maybe the constant appearance of Commodities may annoy some people. I have a specific section I would love to put on Ignore, but never people.

I tend to be one of the main people being accused of stupidity and suffering from Dementia and a whole assortment of other derogatory comments from a very few. How do I feel about it? It really doesn't bother me particularly Joe. All through my life there have been people who have tried to intimidate me. I just keep going along on my merry way and these folk eventually fall to the wayside. I have found they tend to do themselves more harm than me with their derision.


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## PZ99

For those who want to ignore general chat...

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/posts/954940/


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## Ann

PZ99 said:


> For those who want to ignore general chat...
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/posts/954940/




Yay! Thank you PZ99. So if GC, Commodities or any sections annoy you flick 'em.


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## kahuna1

Ann,

You among other things have YOURSELF discussed your adult dyslexia aka Dementia, along with 26 years of chronic fatigue, along with spinal arthritis, along with depression. post natal depression and a host of other ailments. How your son born in 1984 or 1986 is some issue ....  Please try not to play the victim.

Having over the course of 10 plus years, endured your love of being the opposite and quoting what is always the opposing view on a lot of topics, its amusing when your presented with deliberate out of date tobacco industry studies or similar, time and time again, on thread after thread, you think its funny or relevant ?  Amusing till it occurs on 25 issues, stocks, markets or whatever and always ... same stuff same people same games.

Supposedly you do.

This is not a personal attack, its a pattern. Whether its the dyslexia or whatever, denying the very existence of say climate change on a thread about WHETHER it can be stopped, NOT whether its real. The thread is discussing what is a reality for 97% of the scientific community and that aside, going onto a thread, DENYING it exists when its ... a thread for BELIEVERS ... whether you think they are delusional or NOT ... going onto that thread and GOING its all fake ?

The current climate change  thread ... is it stoppable ... is a prime example. 

*Ann ... YOU ...* Time and time and time again, troll ... bait .... troll ... bait ... present views that are well ... rubbish and on and on it goes. the poor guys there your currently playing with, and I stopped accepting it was a sadistic game on your part, the poor guys one asked to get taken off ASF, the other two I suspect are close to it.

This is not an isolated incident but a pattern. Not being personal, but ... sadly honest having had to endure your rubbish for 10 years, on a whole list of topics ... I have tried to understand. Is it the non comprehension of English or words as you said yourself ? I don't know. I sadly suspect its more.

Of course, as time ticks away there are more and more of these things online. If you feel I am being rude pointing out your OWN stated medical conditions, I do not apologize. I have taken a lot of time to try and understand your views, quite obviously read I a lot of your posts, to try and understand the reasons WHY  you post this way.

I have PUT you on ignore and unfortunately when I take you off it, up sprouts .. well poor me yet again.

We all are different and me most of all. Imperfect in the extreme. I do however have boundaries as we all do. I  would prefer not to have pointed this out, but Joe ... is between a rock and hard place dealing with any and all of these issues.

I have no brilliant ideas so I shall crawl back into my hole and leave with this ...

TROLLS ...


----------



## Joe Blow

Great post Smurf. 



Smurf1976 said:


> The first and foremost reason I visit this forum is for the "heads up" sort of posts relating to individual stocks. More analysis is always better but it doesn't overly bother me if it's lacking since it's still a "heads up" that something's going on and I should be taking a look at it myself.




This is what ASF was originally created for. Not everyone is capable of in-depth analysis but we are all capable of posting news, announcements or other information relevant to a particular stock, industry or sector.

It's not hard to post in a stock thread with some useful or relevant information and it does help keep the focus of ASF where it needs to be.



Smurf1976 said:


> Third I'd put the "harmless" sort off topic stuff. Travel photos, someone has a new dog or went to a concert, whatever. Harmless in my view so long as it's a minor sideline to the main purpose of the forum. I've never seen any online forum that doesn't have a place where posts like that would be acceptable.




And this is what should be the purpose of an off-topic area such as the General Chat forum. It should be an adjunct to the main purpose of the forum, not the focus. Ideally it is a place where we can get away from the markets for a while in the evening or on the weekend and discuss topics that aren't so serious.

If General Chat has become the focus of a forum built around another specific area of interest then something has gone terribly wrong. And clearly it has here.



Smurf1976 said:


> Fourth and the big one is politics and religion for the sake of politics and religion and which is discussing topics of no relevance to any ASX listed company or to investing in general.
> 
> That's where the problem is in my view and there are multiple reasons for that.
> 
> First, the very nature of discussion is based on "beliefs" and I think it's fair to say that concept is somewhat at odds with the purpose of the forum.
> 
> Second is the sheer volume of such discussion. If I'm looking for all the new posts on specific stocks then it's one thing to have some stuff about unsafe aircraft and taxation policies mixed in, there's a limited number of such subjects so as long as they're contained to a single thread on that topic they can't really crowd out the stock posts, but it's another thing entirely when literally the whole page comes up full of nothing other than multiple threads about politics and religion none of which are relevant to even one listed company.
> 
> Third is that such posts tend to be a magnet for rudeness and so on and that is a huge turn off.




I'm not sure I can recall another time in my life where political discussion was so black and white and relentlessly dogmatic as it is now. For some reason, ideological purity and the denouncing of those with different views as enemies and apostates appears to be the norm these days. In the increasingly secular western world, I think that politics may be replacing religion as the primary unchangeable and unquestionable belief system. Politics now has its own prophets who pander to those of a particular political bent and who write books and hold rallies to cash in on the devotion of their followers. I won't mention any names but there any many of them.

But to address your third point, this is where the rudeness comes from. It comes from the perception of others who hold different political views as an enemy, rather than as someone who has simply come to different conclusions about the the way our society should be managed. Now, instead of serious debate and discussion, we have insults and bile spitting from ideological trenches and nothing useful or constructive is ever accomplished. It only serves to create an ugly, toxic atmosphere that permeates the whole community.

It is both unpleasant and regrettable.



Smurf1976 said:


> That is not a comment on the subject and in principle I support freedom of expression. From a purely business perspective though, society seems to have become far more conservative over the past ~20 years. It's not the 1980's "you have a right to free speech" world anymore, we're in an era now where the mere mention of some subjects provokes outrage and, from a business perspective, there's no reason for a stock market forum to go there. It's not going to gain even one new member but it will upset someone most likely. All loss, no gain.
> 
> The other political stuff I wouldn't ban but I do agree that it would be best for ASF's purpose and being focused if the number of threads were limited and at no time should become the dominant focus of the forum.




I support freedom of expression too, but clearly there are limits. It is true we have become far more conservative in recent times and it applies equally to both the left and the right. The level of outrage over things that wouldn't have caused people to think twice 30 years ago is at an all time high. Political correctness and oversensitivity is now all pervasive in our culture and it is something that I have found difficult to adapt to simply because I came from that 1980's "you have a right to free speech" world that you mentioned and my instinct tells me that most censorship is counterproductive and that there are very few topics that should be off-limits.

But times have changed and heavy handed moderation and censorship is now commonplace and not only accepted but expected. I still struggle with this.



Smurf1976 said:


> A point I think everyone should remember is that we are all anonymous on this forum, with a few exceptions we do not know who each other personally in the offline world.
> 
> It's one thing to relate to your friends in the offline world in a certain way knowing how they perceive things and the relationship you have with them. It's very different when you're posting something that will be read by many, virtually all of whom know little about you. What's fine said face to face to someone you've known for 30 years can be taken very differently by someone else just reading it with no background knowledge.
> 
> Everyone should thus be polite and respectful at all times in my view. Regardless of the content of the post as such, once it turns to what looks to be rude then that's a massive turn off. Maybe there's some background that you actually know the other person you're responding to or whatever and they're fine with it but the other 99% of those reading only know what's in front of them.




Yes, the rudeness and disrespect needs to stop. There is no need for it. If you cannot find any common ground with another participant in a discussion then cease all interaction. Put them on ignore if you can't stomach their posts. Take the high road and move on. Life's too short to be having pointless arguments with others on the internet.


----------



## nulla nulla

This is a clip that I lifted from a post on the aussiestockforum site many years ago. I find it helps me keep the internet (and internet users) in perspective.




Enjoy.


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## Smurf1976

Joe Blow said:


> I support freedom of expression too, but clearly there are limits. It is true we have become far more conservative in recent times and it applies equally to both the left and the right. The level of outrage over things that wouldn't have caused people to think twice 30 years ago is at an all time high. Political correctness and oversensitivity is now all pervasive in our culture and it is something that I have found difficult to adapt to simply because I came from that 1980's "you have a right to free speech" world that you mentioned and my instinct tells me that most censorship is counterproductive and that there are very few topics that should be off-limits.



Agreed with your comments.

Using a current example regarding the sacking of a rugby player for posting "offensive" comments online.

Whilst I strongly disagree with his comments as such, I do firmly consider that he has the right to make them noting that he's really only quoting sections of the Bible, a book which has wide acceptance in society.

Supporting "diversity" by its very nature means you accept those with views markedly different to your own. That's the very nature of diversity - some will have views directly opposite to your own, few will agree outright with you, and most will be somewhere between the two extremes.

I think society has reached a point where there's rather a lot of people saying they support "x" but far fewer willing to really support it in practice when it comes to the crunch and they realise what's really involved.

In the context of this forum I'll note that one thing's for sure. You, I and anyone else aren't going to learn anything simply by reading posts which tell us what we already know and agree with. Where we'll learn is by being exposed to new ideas and by taking the time to understand exactly what those with an opposing view are saying and how they reached that position. That applies to investing most certainly.


----------



## Smurf1976

rederob said:


> So posting on a stock with views on its future price is other than belief?
> Please enlighten me.



For clarity, I'm taking the word "belief" to mean a view that something is true or false which is not proven by factual evidence and which is not negotiable.

That's not quite the dictionary definition but it's reasonably close and is what I mean in this context.

Eg someone who "believes" in the existence of God and who is a Christian most likely hasn't sought to objectively prove this and, more to the point, is unlikely to undertake a periodic review to assess whether they should remain a Christian or should instead become a Muslim or atheist. Their belief in God and Christianity is fixed and not up for negotiation.

Those who are "rusted on" to voting for the same political party are much the same. Their position is fixed and not negotiable regardless of any factual argument.

In the context of investing, a more pragmatic approach based on analysis of available information is more appropriate and I consider that to be a very different thing when compared to a fixed non-negotiable belief.

If the facts change then that may well change someone's opinion of a situation but it won't generally change their beliefs which are fixed.

So that's what I actually mean (as distinct from any technical definitions of language etc).


----------



## barney

Smurf1976 said:


> *I firmly consider he has the right to make them *
> 
> *I think society has reached a point where there's rather a lot of people saying they support "x" but far fewer willing to really support it in practice when it comes to the crunch and they realise what's really involved.*
> 
> *Where we'll learn is by being exposed to new ideas*




More excellent points Smurf


----------



## rederob

Smurf1976 said:


> In the context of investing, a more pragmatic approach based on analysis of available information is more appropriate and I consider that to be a very different thing when compared to a fixed non-negotiable belief.



While the background to your belief is admirable (and I wholly agree with it in practice relating to investing), I am not sure everyone's "beliefs" in the other areas are necessarily "bolted on." 
I was christened, but am an igtheist.
I have no view on which political party is going to do a better job, so I choose the local candidate that I *believe *is most likely to represent the interests I wish to be progressed in coming years.  Swinging voters change governments!
Posting on a stock, imho, is not a superior "belief."  Despite thorough technical and fundamental analysis (and therefore a "justifiable belief"), any number of events can nullify the hard work.
So to this, next:


Smurf1976 said:


> Where we'll learn is by being exposed to new ideas and by taking the time to understand exactly what those with an opposing view are saying and how they reached that position.



And again I agree with your sentiment.
However, it can be applied across all your 12 threads, except #12 can be tricky for some.


----------



## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> Using a current example regarding the sacking of a rugby player for posting "offensive" comments online.
> 
> Whilst I strongly disagree with his comments as such, I do firmly consider that he has the right to make them noting that he's really only quoting sections of the Bible, a book which has wide acceptance in society.




Quite right. The sacking of Folau is just another example of the nanny state in action.

Why can't people just say "we disagree with what he says", and move on a quickly as possible ?


----------



## kahuna1

Smurf1976 said:


> For clarity, I'm taking the word "belief" to mean a view that something is true or false which is not proven by factual evidence and which is not negotiable.




Yep, I hear you, but part of the issue is WHAT IS FACTS ?

So many things in investments are quoted as facts, even values of companies. When and if you can pull apart the assumptions or methodology, say in the case of Dick Smith when it was floated, you find its a set of rubbish.

On other things, even all of history, sadly, we forget, or are not taught, or because its not in our background, we have no idea.

A lot, is in self interest, or for financial gain, is the presentation of non factual and not even close information. If I can sell you something worth $1- for $100- because I can produce a report that says its worth $200- ... this is how a lot of things operate.

The negotiability of FACTS and even scientific in nature, where it occurs the same way, every time, is sadly in these modern times, is even open for denial.

Drip down economist, or Regressive tax that has Bill Gates paying 12% on the income he declares, which is NOT much, but still Buffett on 50 million a year paying 15% and a person on 100k pays overall close to 35% tax in the USA. This ... has never worked, not once and not in over a million examples in the past 2,000 years. More so in modern times.

If you take, 5% MORE tax from someone who consumes 100% of their income, and give it to someone who only consumes 5% of their income, it, is stupidity on drugs. We don't have that here in Australia but the USA does. Examples of Indian Maharajahs and 2000 years of them, each with 40 years average taxing the poor, never led to greater overall prosperity. 

Some, would argue till their blue in the face, and do, what to a well qualified Macro Economist is simple common sense. Even here, there is a group, about 5% of the Economists that would argue the opposite. Again till they are blue in the face.

Its not about being right or wrong, its actually irrelevant. Its not about converting someone to your belief, or even up to a point ... for me, I have on occasion taken the time to try and hose down scam stocks and various things. Its not something I often do, because, even presenting factual, empirical, data on what is wrong, is sadly lost on fan bases.

I am not sure, even of one can try and get scientific for many in today's world. One can point out the argument and data presented back is out of date, incomplete, idiotic, wrong methodology and present that back, but in 99% of the cases I have tried, its akin to selling sand in the desert.

Fear and greed often drive investment prices. Fear and greed run at times economics, nations and policies. So too cruelty and lack of compassion at times.

Telling the truth, in investments is rare. A company has its product no one is buying, one never hears the MD going this is rubbish. That is not his function. Politics, its rare to hear someone say I got that wrong. More often we are sold fear of the bogey man. YK2 ? What happened with that ? I still sit here waiting for it. OR the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq ? the CIA and FBI convinced the world they had ? Pompeo is now Trumps secretary of State and head of the FBI back then Mueller just did a report on Trumps Russian involvement.

Amusing but true. The guy who with Oliver North sent guns to the Contra's selling oil for Iran, which the contras did horrible things to people with, and the president of that nation is in jail for now, the USA guy who was neck deep with Oliver North, is now the USA special envoy about Venezuela.

This is the leadership of the world. Investment side, well all those people who ripped off so many in the GFC, not one ... not a single one went to jail. Far from it, they were and have been rewarded for their efforts.

A strange strange world where, up is down, down is up, some of it has been going on since the dawn of time.

If I can convince you to buy the harbor bridge off me for 100 million .... and because I like you ... 20% discount ... only 80 million, I will.


OK MY LAST OFFER .... 70 million if you pay today!


----------



## basilio

Last few pages have been some of the best posts  I have read on ASF for a long time. 
Thoughtful, respectful, informative and constructive.
Good stuff.


----------



## basilio

kahuna1 said:


> Yep, I hear you, but part of the issue is WHAT IS FACTS ?
> 
> So many things in investments are quoted as facts, even values of companies. When and if you can pull apart the assumptions or methodology, say in the case of Dick Smith when it was floated, you find its a set of rubbish.
> 
> On other things, even all of history, sadly, we forget, or are not taught, or because its not in our background, we have no idea.
> 
> A lot, is in self interest, or for financial gain, is the presentation of non factual and not even close information. If I can sell you something worth $1- for $100- because I can produce a report that says its worth $200- ... this is how a lot of things operate.
> 
> The negotiability of FACTS and even scientific in nature, where it occurs the same way, every time, is sadly in these modern times, is even open for denial.
> 
> Drip down economist, or Regressive tax that has Bill Gates paying 12% on the income he declares, which is NOT much, but still Buffett on 50 million a year paying 15% and a person on 100k pays overall close to 35% tax in the USA. This ... has never worked, not once and not in over a million examples in the past 2,000 years. More so in modern times.
> 
> If you take, 5% MORE tax from someone who consumes 100% of their income, and give it to someone who only consumes 5% of their income, it, is stupidity on drugs. We don't have that here in Australia but the USA does. Examples of Indian Maharajahs and 2000 years of them, each with 40 years average taxing the poor, never led to greater overall prosperity.
> 
> Some, would argue till their blue in the face, and do, what to a well qualified Macro Economist is simple common sense. Even here, there is a group, about 5% of the Economists that would argue the opposite. Again till they are blue in the face.
> 
> Its not about being right or wrong, its actually irrelevant. Its not about converting someone to your belief, or even up to a point ... for me, I have on occasion taken the time to try and hose down scam stocks and various things. Its not something I often do, because, even presenting factual, empirical, data on what is wrong, is sadly lost on fan bases.
> 
> I am not sure, even of one can try and get scientific for many in today's world. One can point out the argument and data presented back is out of date, incomplete, idiotic, wrong methodology and present that back, but in 99% of the cases I have tried, its akin to selling sand in the desert.
> 
> Fear and greed often drive investment prices. Fear and greed run at times economics, nations and policies. So too cruelty and lack of compassion at times.
> 
> Telling the truth, in investments is rare. A company has its product no one is buying, one never hears the MD going this is rubbish. That is not his function. Politics, its rare to hear someone say I got that wrong. More often we are sold fear of the bogey man. YK2 ? What happened with that ? I still sit here waiting for it. OR the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq ? the CIA and FBI convinced the world they had ? Pompeo is now Trumps secretary of State and head of the FBI back then Mueller just did a report on Trumps Russian involvement.
> 
> Amusing but true. The guy who with Oliver North sent guns to the Contra's selling oil for Iran, which the contras did horrible things to people with, and the president of that nation is in jail for now, the USA guy who was neck deep with Oliver North, is now the USA special envoy about Venezuela.
> 
> This is the leadership of the world. Investment side, well all those people who ripped off so many in the GFC, not one ... not a single one went to jail. Far from it, they were and have been rewarded for their efforts.
> 
> A strange strange world where, up is down, down is up, some of it has been going on since the dawn of time.
> 
> If I can convince you to buy the harbor bridge off me for 100 million .... and because I like you ... 20% discount ... only 80 million, I will.
> 
> 
> OK MY LAST OFFER .... 70 million if you pay today!




Very, very good point Kahuna. In fact one of the most potent values in ASF is people offering clear information on the truth of particular investments when they have good, generally inside, information.

I agree with you that  much of what passes for investor information by Companies is self serving and often quite misleading or even deceitful.
The (potential) value of being in ASF is sharing insights that separate the wheat from the chaff and enable investors to avoid some of the most outrageous cons and find the companies with quality products *and competent quality management.*


----------



## barney

rederob said:


> *I am not sure everyone's "beliefs" in the other areas are necessarily "bolted on." *
> 
> *I have no view on which political party is going to do a better job, so I choose the local candidate that I believe is most likely  …. And again I agree with your sentiment.*




A lot of people do tend to get wrapped up in their own dogma no doubt … In my small circle of friends and family I have noticed getting older has seemed to make many of them a bit more "negotiable", myself included.   

I suspect a lot more people actually Vote with that same concept in mind … I certainly do

@Smurf1976 will no doubt clarify his own points, but I'm pretty sure you guys are actually on similar pages much of the time, even though you might be reading the book on different days


----------



## Ann

kahuna1 said:


> I have PUT you on ignore and unfortunately when I take you off it, up sprouts .. well poor me yet again.




Kahuna, if my posts distress you so much, then please leave me on Ignore. As they say, "if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee."

It is never my intention to upset anyone with anything I post. When I post here I am simply making a point about something as I see it. I hadn't noticed you on ASF before a couple of weeks ago so I can assure you there is no animosity from my side.


----------



## Ann

PZ99 said:


> For those who want to ignore general chat...
> 
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/posts/954940/




This is such awesome information, bless PZ99! I now see I can do a whole host of Ignoring which does not involve Ignoring people. Kahuna said he had me on Ignore, I had no idea he was Ignoring me so that means I can put threads on Ignore without people knowing. I would just hate to offend people or diminish their value by letting people know what I have put on Ignore. However I will  never Ignore a person. Brilliant!

Joe perhaps you could send a 'group' email letting people know they can Ignore stuff that irritates them. Perhaps a screen shot included in the email of where the Ignore buttons are. I have been around forever and had no idea. Peace Rocks!


----------



## barney

Ok … Playing Devil's advocate here for a change

If you are having issues with another punter/forum user … or a thread content in general …

Dare I say, that to put them/that/those/they on "Ignore" is an admission of defeat

For example .... If anyone has me on ignore … "I won" 


Please bare in mind that the above is only meant with "good intent"  … I think no one really needs to ignore anybody on an Internet Forum!

Seriously … In real life, you may actually find the person entertaining, or god forbid … attractive  … and forgive them a multitude of personal failings

For example (again) .... If my wife had met me on an Internet Forum  … I would not have a wife!! 

But now she thinks I'm a legend …… (that's what I tell my mates anyway!)

I'm sounding very old here … but … lighten up folks … life is short!!  …. 90% of the people I know in my "real life" who I disagree with, I really like


----------



## Ann

barney said:


> Dare I say, that to put them/that/those/they on "Ignore" is an admission of defeat
> 
> For example .... If anyone has me on ignore … "I won"




As I see it Barney it is not a win or lose thing. It is merely a discretionary decision as to what is the best input for your own interests. Is it psychologically beneficial for a more positive life or will it keep you in an anger state? One must look to one's own well being. Clearly I have upset one of the ASF members without meaning to. It would be in that person's best interest to put me on Ignore. Not win or lose, I would prefer they kept me on Ignore forever sooner than see them in distress.


----------



## kahuna1

Yep.

Well. it is sadly defeat I  admit. Sometimes, one finds as hard as one tries no common ground. A set of nothing in common and no value of any sort being given to a discussion.

It does happen, whilst I learn a lot as others, myself included present one side of the equation, and having honestly looked at the stuff that is cut and pasted, not their own thoughts, own research and why  the think the way they do, I sadly yep .... admit defeat.

At times, and having been voted the biggest looser on Hot copper in 2003 over one stock that is no longer around ... and bood off stage in front of 3,000 people at one conference in 2007 ... such is life.

As one wise person said here, and I agree, its not about being right .... or winning an argument ... or even getting people to agree.

For me, and I use some sites as a thinking out loud board, in many ways and on some sites its actually scientists reviewing or me reviewing them, a peer review. One agrees to disagree, you listen, accept it, at times change your position ... *and everyone gains*. Sadly, and it is common more ... on the internet that dogma ... or needing to be right ... and well just the plain windup that occurs.

Sadly, when I get trolled by some person with an apt name 30 times, I think its fair to say they will likely NEVER ever say or share something of value. Similar when I have had similar discussions with someone on 10 topics over 10 years, who is presenting theories based upon what "Mr Ed" the TV show said and how many times he stomped his hoof. 

Life is finite and being, well, patient as one can, and differing views, knowledge and beliefs and understanding of any topic is a great thing and to be shared. When, its .... not ... and repeatedly not, if I pass someone clearly mentally disturbed in the street rambling and speaking incoherently, whilst if can I will help, I will however, not stop, take notes or note on what they say and take action.

A polite way of saying, we are all different and having just learnt the hard way how very different some peoples views on religion and compassion are, I do have boundaries and if its ignoring someone who is and has a tendency to be racist and or homophobic or Islamophobic, my own boundary is a welcome IGNORE on this site. In life I will walk away or tell them ... in person. 

Am I declaring defeat ? Not listening to or being accepting of those who, well have a set of values that make me vomit in the case of the haters ? I just choose, I know wisely ... to use the ignore button. 
If someone has a logic base and uses cut and paste, even when presented with some very detailed responses ... and I learn a lot from them ... and then cuts and pastes again and again, rubbish, ignoring the responses, on one hand they stir up an ants nest, and knowledge flows freely, but extreme frustration ... or is it a game ... or beliefs driving the person ... trolling ? Or is it beliefs ? Or whatever ... 

Again, YEP I gladly declare defeat if that's what it is. I sadly have boundaries and I say with NO regret that I don't take the time to listen to someone ranting in the street.
*
I surrender ... IGNORE is bliss*. Not in anger, sometimes admittedly with racists and so on ... with disgust ... but it saves sanity. 


now the important stuff  ... I still have not received the $75 million for the sale of the Harbor Bridge in Sydney !!* We agreed !! *


----------



## Ann

kahuna1 said:


> now the important stuff ... I still have not received the $75 million for the sale of the Harbor Bridge in Sydney !!* We agreed !! *




Damn, what a bugger!


----------



## qldfrog

an answer which got stuck about what should be or not in a stock forum
I use ignore and feel better for it so if anyone got trapped in a spiral of obsessive internet fight, answer is easy here
But it is not always easy to split what is economically relevant or not
Smurf quoted the thread about chinese influence in australia as a "Bad" one
I see it as critically important and relevant, China has replaced Japan
Its nfluence is hitting every aspect of our economy and so life, education, land and property/business purchase, huawei boycott, etc etc
So that thread is in my view very relevant
As for the right to say and express any idea, the day where Assange is arrested is a day where all freedom lovers should cry, however your opinion of the man is;
so let's not add more censorship..self imposed or not we are really turning into the dreaded USSR from my younger age
Where are the greens and labour when we need them?
Well not arround as Ali France has told us, she can not live in her electorate, not good enough for her..Thanks say Qldfrog who is living there


----------



## barney

Seriously Guys/Gals …. The intent of my previous post has gone MIA ……. 

Both of you obviously have a lot of good input to … "input" …….. 

I really … truly … honestly .. do not understand how two intelligent people cannot sort out their differences on an Internet Forum …

You both have the opportunity to help ASF immensely if you sort this out ..... 

Please "Private Message" each other and talk about why and how you disagree  .... and then, how and why you should go about sorting it out …… or not

Did I mention life is short  …… 

Enough from me …. I may be a Grandfather but I'm not old enough to tell others how to behave


----------



## Ann

I like Smurf, he states his case succinctly and walks away.
I think I shall just follow a wise man's trail.


----------



## kahuna1

Its not about anger

Or differences ... It is basically what I said. In some instances, and say someone who saw fit to be anti Islamic on a thread about the NZ events, I was not angry, I was disgusted, and chose and have chosen to ignore them.

If in my ignorance, I miss what they say, so be it.

At some stage, and I can see you missing this, its not about pride, or winning an argument. I really will never meet you, of anyone else. I don't need to be right, and know I am wrong I am totally willing and open to accept that, and *hopefully its pointed out*. Its how we learn. However ... presented the same argument back time and again .. at some stage .... you go ok ... and move on.

I have chose that option thanks to the ignore. I agree totally and embrace life is too short .... and having a pointless circular argument is where sometimes things end.

You have NO values or common thinking points, so be it. Having spent a lot of time with scientific types and peer review, being presented with medieval beliefs or faith based, or political party ... or dogmas which ... from a science based factual evidenced based examination are incorrect, it is what it is.

If my putting someone on ignore, rather than biting, or getting frustrated in some ways is misbehaving, sadly with the utmost respect, we are all different.


----------



## Zaxon

I do read general chat sometimes.  It's like listening into the argument of the couple next door who are on their way to a divorce - a ready made soap opera.


----------



## qldfrog

As in life, and perhaps more on the internet, some people just release a platform, for example on global warming, as @Ann has demonstrated, there are instructions available on sites on how to spread the good word, and some people probably genuinely feel their duty to parrot.
You can not have a discussion there, similarly on politics, or any religion

Basically when beliefs are involved:
Facts are useless and discussions useless with the believers but luckily while more prone to flooding threads, they are not alone and many reasonable opinions exists

I found this especially true here on pure religion, GW, migration, islam and left -right political divide
But i disagree with you @barney as i believe *ignore* will still allow you to follow some threads which are unreadable otherwise..
And learn some facts,and share views
But i agree that if reading raw threads, with pages of cut and paste articles from propaganda./the guardian  .(why on earth not use a link),well, then yes it is unbearable and painful.
Learn to use *ignore*, life is too short. In any way the worst culprits in term of propaganda agenda spewing do not often contribute much in term of financial technical input
And anyone can  feel free to include me among the above!!!


----------



## rederob

qldfrog said:


> Basically when beliefs are involved:
> Facts are useless and discussions useless with the believers but luckily while more prone to flooding threads, they are not alone and many reasonable opinions exists



When *beliefs *are involved, treat them as mere beliefs.
The problem in most forums is that some posters cannot separate *facts *(in the epistemological sense) from beliefs. 
The bigger issue that I see in the *general* forums is that a number of consistent posters ignore evidence or refuse to accept it.  
I agree that some threads are littered with "flooded" information, ad nauseum. I personally seldom read them.  
I also place little store in *opinions*. "In my opinion Labor should win the federal election" is chaff, while the wheat is in the polling data which ask meaningful questions and use sophisticated statistical techniques to reduce the probability of a bad call.  That said, I like Sportsbet and similar because bookies actually use data a lot better because their money is on the line.


----------



## Knobby22

No, bookies money is not on the line. They run a book, change the odds depending on the money flow. They take a cut. It doesn't matter to them who gets up, and the favourite didn't get up in the US election for instance.

For the record Sportsbet is paying 1.19 for Labor victory, 4.5 for coalition. These odds will tighten over the next 4 weeks imo.


----------



## SirRumpole

Knobby22 said:


> No, bookies money is not on the line. They run a book, change the odds depending on the money flow. They take a cut. It doesn't matter to them who gets up, and the favourite didn't get up in the US election for instance.




Yes, the intrusion of the gambling industry into our lives has been insidious, and the odds are also "chaff", they change on the bookies whim.

Frankly the next 30 days or so will be wasted if people watch the election coverage. I find watching the grass grow more interesting.


----------



## Knobby22

I so agree. I vaguely remember Fraser's second term election and it wasn't like this (sorry for the thread drift).


----------



## barney

qldfrog said:


> Basically when beliefs are involved: Facts are useless  …




Yep 



qldfrog said:


> But i disagree with you @barney as i believe *ignore* will still allow you to follow some threads which are unreadable otherwise..




You can disagree with me "Frog"  ….. I still respect you   ……

I still think "ignore" is possibly an easier way out rather than "fronting" the issue in an adult way, although, if someone annoys someone else multiple times with little reciprocity then I can understand why they might choose to tell them to "go jump" 



qldfrog said:


> And anyone can  feel free to include me among the above!




LOL   … Who would possibly ignore a polite Frog


----------



## Smurf1976

A bit off topic but of some relevance to recent comments in this thread:

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...t/news-story/afb28be816890a6b9c30d67ca8a06859

To be clear - this Smurf most certainly isn't scared of ideas and so far as I'm aware nobody I'm friends with in the offline world is either but it seems to be becoming a thing.


----------



## qldfrog

Smurf1976 said:


> A bit off topic but of some relevance to recent comments in this thread:
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/technology/...t/news-story/afb28be816890a6b9c30d67ca8a06859
> 
> To be clear - this Smurf most certainly isn't scared of ideas and so far as I'm aware nobody I'm friends with in the offline world is either but it seems to be becoming a thing.



That is because Smurf you would not have any incline to be friend with the bleating sheeps vacuum headed who constitutes  these masses
But think about it, with tv influence down, education level abysmal, and easy overall life, the masses which used to be remotely guided by the medias are now in freespin following their own self created social media spin, with i am sure some wiser agent provocateur putting the seeds of carefully calculated schemes
There has never been i think in the history of the west where propaganda has been so powerful
A very dangerous time


----------



## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> A bit off topic but of some relevance to recent comments in this thread:
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/technology/...t/news-story/afb28be816890a6b9c30d67ca8a06859
> 
> To be clear - this Smurf most certainly isn't scared of ideas and so far as I'm aware nobody I'm friends with in the offline world is either but it seems to be becoming a thing.




The words of Evelyn Hall are getting lost in the PC tide of outrage and "how dare you say that" snowflakes.

Very disturbing.


----------



## cynic

SirRumpole said:


> The words of Evelyn Hall are getting lost in the PC tide of outrage and "how dare you say that" snowflakes.
> 
> Very disturbing.



How dare you say that!


----------



## kahuna1

Open hate, couched in free speech.

Oh how I love the world. I will follow the 5 commandments of the site and well ... ignore.

Since one of the people above was the one that trolled me 30 times, and another had such disgusting anti Islam tropes post NZ, And they are still disgusting me, am I being NON PC in expressing that ? That you still make me sick ?

For my troubles and another who expressed his distaste in this non PC world for expressing dismay and disgust ... he left the site. Trolled on every topic he chose to post upon by the innocent and free speech crowd. A coward is always a coward and the internet is perfect for them.

Bravo at your posts here !!

This from the president of the USA ... wow ... Linking  congress person with 9/11 ... because she is muslin ... it makes Katter and Pauline Hanson look tame.




I am so out of touch with the modern world and these values ... THANKFULLY


----------



## Smurf1976

Joe Blow said:


> If General Chat has become the focus of a forum built around another specific area of interest then something has gone terribly wrong. And clearly it has here.



I've been having some thoughts as to that one.

I'll make some more observations over the next few days to see if I'm on the right track or not with my thinking. 

Another post to follow.


----------



## rederob

Smurf1976 said:


> I've been having some thoughts as to that one.
> I'll make some more observations over the next few days to see if I'm on the right track or not with my thinking.
> Another post to follow.



So was I, smurf.
I read many of the stock and market related posts - some are really good.
The issue I see is that with the minimum of 10 daily emails I get via subscription, the amount of "other" information that is available is overwhelming.
On my quiet days I also scroll through the ASX daily releases (very very quickly) to see if anything is happening.
And when I get bored I read analyst reports.
So while ASF is a quick and easy catch up on those stocks/commodities etc which are market related, for me it's a chance to see what people are otherwise invested in.
10 or so years ago I did have a good charting platform that I could use to add graphics with commentary, but I don't have one any more.


----------



## Smurf1976

rederob said:


> So was I, smurf.
> I read many of the stock and market related posts - some are really good.
> The issue I see is that with the minimum of 10 daily emails I get via subscription, the amount of "other" information that is available is overwhelming.



I'll compile my thoughts and post something in a day or two (since it's 2:30am right now....) but we're not far apart there.

I've read literally every stock post on ASF for the past couple of months until a day or two ago and been taking notes. By that I mean not about whether to invest in those stocks, well that too, but thinking about what's posted, what's not, and so on.

There are some prolific posters to stock threads. You know who you are and I've read the lot.  

There is _massive_ knowledge on this forum which could broadly be divided into the three categories of T/A, fundamentals based on financials, and fundamentals as in the "nuts and bolts" of the company or industry.

Further comment to come at a more normal hour.


----------



## Ann

Smurf1976 said:


> Further comment to come at a more normal hour.




You know, since I found out you could 'Ignore' sections or threads on the forum it is awesome! I have put Chat on Ignore and only wander down there when I have time and then I look out for the posters and subjects of interest to me. In the meantime, I only get stuff that is relevant to the markets on the 'recent posts' section. _So _much better.


----------



## Dark Knight 2.0

kahuna1 said:


> Open hate, couched in free speech.
> 
> Oh how I love the world. I will follow the 5 commandments of the site and well ... ignore.
> 
> Since one of the people above was the one that trolled me 30 times, and another had such disgusting anti Islam tropes post NZ, And they are still disgusting me, am I being NON PC in expressing that ? That you still make me sick ?
> 
> For my troubles and another who expressed his distaste in this non PC world for expressing dismay and disgust ... he left the site. Trolled on every topic he chose to post upon by the innocent and free speech crowd. A coward is always a coward and the internet is perfect for them.
> 
> Bravo at your posts here !!
> 
> This from the president of the USA ... wow ... Linking  congress person with 9/11 ... because she is muslin ... it makes Katter and Pauline Hanson look tame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am so out of touch with the modern world and these values ... THANKFULLY





The forum doesn't deserve your wisdom, intelligence and good Heart  Kahuana.

I got warned for disagreeing with and questioning a certain persons motives in denying CC.


----------



## kahuna1

Hi Dark Knight ....

welcome back. I struggle with internet 2019.
I wish I had the stamina but alas, lack of logic, dogmas and sheer stupidity almost sent me away forever.

The motives of their denial, is for them their reality.
For some its mental issues. A game of trolling.
For others its stupidity.
For others its lack of ability to even accept they can be wrong.

It it is not that I am right, in fact often wrong.
I want to learn something if possible, correct a mistake if needed.
One set of eyes or one brain is much worse than the joint forces of many brains.

That is why one tries to contribute ... to learn .. to share ideas ... pick up what you have missed, don't know .... can't  possibly know .. but someone can point it out.

CC ... well .. it is what it is. Much like politics and religion its relegated to extremes and for most indifference. Sadly things are getting much worse far quicker. On the idiotic extremes, and yes I seem to be one extreme here, science end of things, no amount of logic or science or evidence will stop or even alter the denial side.

I suspect when the earth was believed to be flat would be a good analogy.
In the end, I asked the denial side what of the IPCC recommendations or findings they believed and there was silence. Chemical reactions, NOPE, ... none of it. Temperature change, ice loss, species loss all of it denied.

That sadly is way beyond logical or even human comprehension. I suppose, inside a delusion everything becomes real. Even denial of basic information or observed evidence.

Not calling someone an imbecile when denying science is something I am working on !!  When its irrefutable evidence and some nutjob questions even that, is where things lie in some cases.


----------



## kahuna1

Sdajii said:


> If you're on the left you can say what you want, you can lie, you can source information from wherever you want, you can exaggerate and misrepresent it, and you can do it with impunity. We constantly see this.




I think this is one of the most disturbing and illogical posts I have ever seen. If your NOT on their side, or on any side they take, your wrong. Some including you and myself took the time, which was wasted and always will be.

This is the world now. If for some, and a growing number, neither reasoning or presentation of facts is to be accepted, They are are,  as the sad person believes, and they truly believe that .. if any evidence falls outside their beliefs, it is manipulated or contorted to tell what is a fake narrative in their delusional worlds.

Trump, as we have seen 10,000 times, lies at will. Even if one removed half for being a maybe ... or exaggeration ... its the world we live in. Even when he calls the CEO Tim APPLE ... from Apple instead of Tim Cook ... he DENIES he even said it when there are 10 cameras with it on tape.

If I raise this, I am from the left ? Or right ? Whatever !!

I don't know how Joe or any internet provider or chat rooms deals with any of these issues. Ignore button may work, but their sheer fanatical belief in the illogical and ability to sprout pure rubbish is astounding.

Illhan Omar, New USA House Member  speaking about 6 year olds being bullied in a school said ... "they don't care about that" ...  in reference to 6 year olds born in 2012, about why Muslim kids are being attacked for 9.11 that occurred in 2001 and NO 6 year old, black white or whatever cares about  what occurred in 2001 as to why they are being bullied.... Trump in his wisdom ... quoted the line they DON'T care and 6 year olds don't care ... put it on his twitter and with a plane going into the world Trade center on 9/11 in 2001 and with Illahan Omars picture.

She had just had death threats and did Trumps actions help ? No ... of course not ... she just got more and more !! Did it make the media ? A House representative voted in via LANDSLIDE is being given daily death threats  ? NO of course not. NO media in the USA or very little.

Strange world led by, well ... a delusional leader who has no qualities to be admired. NONE. Meanwhile less and less get healthcare in the USA, even insulin is up 500% post 2000 .... Asama ... Ibuterol costs 1000% MORE than if did a few years ago ...

Meanwhile number of companies paying tax HALVED .... tax collected on profits fell from 17.65% to 7.3% as Medical care for the many crashed. Deficit hitting 1 trillion or 5% of GDP in 2019. War via economic means now in the open against 25 nations via tariffs and so on.  Threats against 50 out of 200 nations I might add. Open war in some and threats of violence against so so many  others.

Economics and stocks and investments cross the line at times between politics and various other issues.
They will and are directly and at times diabolically altered in value by their actions. Banning some product or tariffs on another, or taxes on another, can and do change any valuation overnight at times.

Fun times ... and its not improving.


----------



## Smurf1976

I've held off on making comment until now but for reasons that will be obvious I'm saying it now and I'll get to the point noting that the following is my view and not necessarily anyone else's.

The owner of this forum has made the point about the need to keep the focus primarily on topic and not on unrelated matters.

Looking through the off topic (General Chat) section well I can see some potential relevance to investment in topics such as cancer research, electric cars and dangerous buildings. Those things aren't company specific but if there's going to be radical change across an entire industry then many companies will be affected.

Next comes travel photos and so on. There's no investment potential but it's not really likely to upset anyone too much so long as it's a limited thing.

And then there's the one that has prompted my comments and that's religion. I just can't see any upside for ASF in having religious discussions but I can certainly see negatives in that apart from being a very long way off the forum's purpose, it's a sure fire way to offend someone once religion comes into it.

Obviously my comment has been prompted by discussion of a rugby player but it's not my intent to say that particular issue should be silenced, indeed doing so would make a mockery of it all given that freedom of expression is the basis of that discussion. I do however feel that _any_ debate about religion isn't really doing this forum any favours especially when it comes to attracting new members.

Dodgy buildings or $100 million machinery failures I can find some investment angle in (competitors, repair contractors, insurers, risk of same thing happening elsewhere etc lots of possibly affected companies there) but I really can't find anything relevant when it comes to arguing about the words in the Bible.

Just my


----------



## rederob

Smurf1976 said:


> And then there's the one that has prompted my comments and that's religion. I just can't see any upside for ASF in having religious discussions but I can certainly see negatives in that apart from being a very long way off the forum's purpose, it's a sure fire way to offend someone once religion comes into it.



Except it's really about the *LAW*. 
The usual culprits turn it into some ideological playground.  However it needs to be approached in terms of "how things work" and what rules apply.  The law is a playground for thinking rather than ideology.
If you rely on TA then there are systems you use that give clues as to how patterns develop and the subsequent trend likely to develop. Although the rules at play here are probabilistic, they are nevertheless the platform for your actions.  Given the many books and systems available to those using TA there is no right way to do it, rather, some will work better than others or for the way you use information.
The Folau case is really about him trying to show that his religion was a reason for his termination, because his employer has consistently stated it was not.  It's a bit like RA use the trend as its decision making platform, while Folau has found a brief shift in momentum against the trend, and prefers to trade that. 
Folau is attempting to create a new paradigm.  The questions you should be asking are about what would make his ideas work, rather than offering mere opinion/belief/hope.
Forums that do not challenge how we think or what we think are not really worth visiting, unless you simply want a platform for you many opinions.  For our own benefit, they should get us to reexamine why we do do things in a particular way when we are presented with evidence it does not work.


----------



## Dark Knight 2.0

The Investment forums allow people to serve their self interests, the general chat forums allow people to serve Society's interests (do good) hopefully.


----------



## PZ99

I made one comment in the Folau thread in question - now it's on my ignore list...

Pump and Dump


----------



## sptrawler

I'm a bit guilty, I can't walk away from a fight and I hate bullies.


----------



## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> but I really can't find anything relevant when it comes to arguing about the words in the Bible.




The general argument in the Folau thread has not been about the Bible or religion, but about people's rights to express their opinions about any subject they choose without retaliation from their employers.

I think you even summed up the situation pretty well in one of your previous posts.

As for the link with investing, well it's pretty tenuous for sure, but some are prepared to invest in freedom of speech by giving money to Folau to fight his case so maybe there is more to an investment than pure financial gain.


----------



## Smurf1976

SirRumpole said:


> The general argument in the Folau thread has not been about the Bible or religion, but about people's rights to express their opinions about any subject they choose without retaliation from their employers.




Agreed as such although the specific case involves the quoting of text from the Bible which the employer has deemed unacceptable.

Eg if he'd posted a page from a kids cartoon book or a bus timetable then I doubt they'd have sacked him for doing so. The detail of the content seems to form the basis of their objection and in that case they're taking issue with the content of the Bible.

My real point though is not about religion, Folau or freedom of expression but about this forum.

ASF is a valuable source of information and discussion on many things but I'm conscious of the fact that ultimately it's a privately owned and operated business which needs to be profitable.

If I, or more to the point someone new to the site, looks at the ASF home page and not one recent topic is a specific stock related post, and the dominant discussion is about a rugby player and his highly controversial sacking, then I don't think that's really helping ASF. That's the perspective from which my comment here is coming from.

On a stock market forum I can see definite relevance in discussing unsafe buildings, cancer research and broad industries such as automotive or energy and so on. Those threads aren't specific to any one company but there's definitely information there which may be of use to those with a fundamental approach to investing. There's plenty of builders and property companies, there's plenty in the health sector, there's listed car dealerships, there are listed energy companies and electricity futures are traded on the ASX and so on.

Politics has relevance to a point given it's intertwined with business and the economy.

The Folau case though, well if there's a need to focus ASF more toward its intended purpose then that subject seems like an all pain, no gain sort of thing really. Depending on your perspective it's either about religious content or at least involves it and of all subjects the one most likely to cause upset is debates about religion. It's not going to bring anyone to ASF but it may well turn some away.

My point is about ASF not the Folau case specifically although that's the current example. I've had the thought for a while and the Folau case, and seeing an entire page of topics with not one specific stock post and Folau at top, prompted me to comment. I make that comment as an observation noting that it's not my role to decide what is or isn't acceptable.


----------



## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> The Folau case though, well if there's a need to focus ASF more toward its intended purpose then that subject seems like an all pain, no gain sort of thing really. Depending on your perspective it's either about religious content or at least involves it and of all subjects the one most likely to cause upset is debates about religion.




I think you are generally correct as usual. The Folau case on this forum  seems to have run it's course now, but I think it just shows that it's difficult sometimes to stop arguing and let a view that you disagree with have the last word.

No more from me on this, unless....


----------



## rederob

Smurf1976 said:


> Depending on your perspective it's either about religious content or at least involves it and of all subjects the one most likely to cause upset is debates about religion.



 I have posted a lot on the Folau matter, and very little is about *religion*.
Most other posters cannot work that out!
The Folau thread is a really good opportunity to apply critical thinking skills, and appears mostly as an opportunity missed.


----------



## Joe Blow

The General Chat forum creates serious problems in two ways:

1. It dilutes the focus of this community which is, or should be, a stock market focused community.
2. It creates a toxic, unpleasant atmosphere as a result of the ideological bile spitting and general incivility between (some) forum members when it comes to topics concerning politics and religion.

There is a desperate need for change. I have made several appeals to the community to no noticeable effect which makes me think that diplomacy is not the answer. So now I am seriously considering closing the General Chat forum altogether.

The bottom line is this: ASF is not sustainable as a general chat forum. Unless it can get back on track, and the focus can be restored, it might soon be time to put the old girl out of her misery.


----------



## Gringotts Bank

Joe Blow said:


> The General Chat forum creates serious problems in two ways:
> 
> 1. It dilutes the focus of this community which is, or should be, a stock market focused community.
> 2. It creates a toxic, unpleasant atmosphere as a result of the ideological bile spitting and general incivility between (some) forum members when it comes to topics concerning politics and religion.
> 
> There is a desperate need for change. I have made several appeals to the community to no noticeable effect which makes me think that diplomacy is not the answer. So now I am seriously considering closing the General Chat forum altogether.
> 
> The bottom line is this: ASF is not sustainable as a general chat forum. Unless it can get back on track, and the focus can be restored, it might soon be time to put the old girl out of her misery.



I'd support that.  It would prevent me posting rubbish and useless chit-chat.  I only go into 'general' threads when I'm bored or in drawdown, so the quality of my posts tends to reflect that anyway.  Better I do something constructive.


----------



## SirRumpole

Joe Blow said:


> The General Chat forum creates serious problems in two ways:
> 
> 1. It dilutes the focus of this community which is, or should be, a stock market focused community.
> 2. It creates a toxic, unpleasant atmosphere as a result of the ideological bile spitting and general incivility between (some) forum members when it comes to topics concerning politics and religion.
> 
> There is a desperate need for change. I have made several appeals to the community to no noticeable effect which makes me think that diplomacy is not the answer. So now I am seriously considering closing the General Chat forum altogether.
> 
> The bottom line is this: ASF is not sustainable as a general chat forum. Unless it can get back on track, and the focus can be restored, it might soon be time to put the old girl out of her misery.




Why not just take GC off the Recent Posts list, so the only posts that appear there are stock ones ?


----------



## Zaxon

Joe Blow said:


> 1. It dilutes the focus of this community which is, or should be, a stock market focused community.
> 2. It creates a toxic, unpleasant atmosphere as a result of the ideological bile spitting and general incivility between (some) forum members when it comes to topics concerning politics and religion.



I'd agree with all that.  These are the exact reason why a number of us never go near general chat.

Plus, I've noticed there are a number of people who relentlessly post in general chat, who I never see post outside it.  So I always wonder what are they doing here in the first place?


Joe Blow said:


> So now I am seriously considering closing the General Chat forum altogether.



I don't have a problem with that.


----------



## Joe Blow

SirRumpole said:


> Why not just take GC off the Recent Posts list, so the only posts that appear there are stock ones ?




To be fair, that's worth a try. So I've gone ahead and removed General Chat from the Recent Posts widget. I've also removed General Chat from both "New Posts" and "Recent Posts" searches.

Now the only way you can find out what it happening in the General Chat forum is to go in there and have a look.


----------



## tech/a

What a great idea Joe!


----------



## Joe Blow

I'm starting to like it the more I think about it.

Now, if those who wanted to could add General Chat back to those features *on an individual basis* we might very well have a system that works for everyone.


----------



## SirRumpole

tech/a said:


> What a great idea Joe!




Yes, great idea Joe !


----------



## Joe Blow

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, great idea Joe !




Yes, I think we might be onto something and I'm a little more confident that a win-win solution may be able to be crafted here.

I've even flicked the switch back on so new threads can be started in General Chat again. 

I suspect this will be a custom coding job but I'm making some enquiries to see what is possible.


----------



## qldfrog

I also put the thread on ignore earlier this morning, but Joe, if I can add a different opinion,do not underestimate the importance of the general thread:
I hate facebook, am on wechat due to chinese work assignment and am so upset by the garbage we get from both ABC and news ltd that every morning I log here to look at market and shares related events but also look at various stocks unrelated threads: who died, what has just happened, etc etc;
we have a pool of people with higher than journos knowledge and i prefer my news feeds from these persons than following a propaganda stream.
If this disappears, I will probably log once a week, quickly give up with my stock system thread as I will soon feel unconnected and probably end up using ASF as a repository..a live encyclopedia...log search exit with no will to share or post.
I am not usually representative of any majority, so maybe no one else is feeling the same, but that is in all honesty, my view
The general thread builds the community, and I feel i belong on ASF as part of this sharing


----------



## Joe Blow

qldfrog said:


> I also put the thread on ignore earlier this morning, but Joe, if I can add a different opinion,do not underestimate the importance of the general thread:
> I hate facebook, am on wechat due to chinese work assignment and am so upset by the garbage we get from both ABC and news ltd that every morning I log here to look at market and shares related events but also look at various stocks unrelated threads: who died, what has just happened, etc etc;
> we have a pool of people with higher than journos knowledge and i prefer my news feeds from these persons than following a propaganda stream.
> If this disappears, I will probably log once a week, quickly give up with my stock system thread as I will soon feel unconnected and probably end up using ASF as a repository..a live encyclopedia...log search exit with no will to share or post.
> I am not usually representative of any majority, so maybe no one else is feeling the same, but that is in all honesty, my view
> The general thread builds the community, and I feel i belong on ASF as part of this sharing




There are very strong feelings on both sides of the General Chat fence. I have copped quite a few sprays and had quite a few people leave over the dominance of the General Chat forum at ASF.

The flack I have copped over it, mostly over my indecision or inaction, has been hard to take sometimes. The reason is because, as administrator, I strive to make decisions that please as many people as possible. No matter which way I turned this issue around in my head, I just couldn't figure out a way to make both sides happy. It seemed to be a problem that was impossible to solve. Yet people seemed to be getting angrier about it all the time. The combative and discourteous mood of the General Chat forum was spilling out into the rest of ASF and turning people off, especially newcomers. It was really starting to get me down and I'm sure people could sense my frustration.

But today I think we finally might be getting somewhere and a real, workable solution may actually be in sight. This proposed solution is:

1. Have the General Chat forum excluded from the Recent Posts widget and the "New Posts" and "Recent Posts" searches by default; but...
2. Have a setting in people's user preferences that allows them to enable General Chat in these areas just for them.

This way, most people don't see the General Chat threads unless they choose to by enabling that option. So it's a win-win situation for both sides. It seems to be a solution that will make both sides happy and will most likely reduce the amount of posts in General Chat as those who don't see the threads in their searches won't get drawn into them.


----------



## Smurf1976

I was coming up with a different solution but it seems that the one Joe and others have in mind is simpler and likely to be more effective so lets' go with that one. Seems like a good idea and I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work and bonus it's straightforward and simple. 

The one comment I'd make is that I do think the GC threads fall into two categories in that there's some in there which do have possible relevance to those looking to invest in certain industries or understand related issues whilst others are clearly off topic so far as investing is concerned.

Eg buildings cracking up or catching fire does have potential relevance to anyone considering investing in high rise apartments, builders, developers etc if they want to understand industry wide stuff beyond any individual company. Same with a few other things. Those approaching their investing from a technical perspective would likely see that stuff as a distraction but it's potentially useful to those looking at fundamentals.


----------



## qldfrog

Joe's solution is better as it has no need to determine where the limit is
Quick example and purposely on a hot topic
 electric cars
Cost wise /economically a no go vs ICE.but our cadmium copper  rare earths mining relies on expected growth there :critical for the asx

  The KEY reason: GW threat based on the assumption CO2 emissions are killing the planet
And that the population believes this

What if someone proves that this is not the cause..and many argue with science on their side, it is not?
And the GW thread is a very divisive one
So Joe: perfect solution
Well done


----------



## Smurf1976

qldfrog said:


> Quick example and purposely on a hot topic
> electric cars
> Cost wise /economically a no go vs ICE.but our cadmium copper  rare earths mining relies on expected growth there :critical for the asx



Good example yes and many other implications too given the many companies involved across automotive sales and maintenance, fuel, electricity, mining and so on all of which are affected one way or another by that technology change.


----------



## barney

Nothing to add here … but happy to endorse the many productive comments made


----------



## Ann

Now the next major question is....How do we get Joe elected as the next PM of Australia?

The one question I would ask of Joe...are you anti-nuclear power? 

(no I am not dead folks...busy in my garden and creating the perfect trading plan, which is pretty much the same thing! Be back soon-ish )


----------



## SirRumpole

Ann said:


> Now the next major question is....How do we get Joe elected as the next PM of Australia?




He wouldn't be any good.

He doesn't bullsh!t enough.


----------



## Ann

SirRumpole said:


> He wouldn't be any good.
> 
> He doesn't bullsh!t enough.



I am so over bullsh!t artists, this is why I am here. He thinks, he weighs and I believe he disassociates regardless of who has flung dollars at him. 

This is a great man. I love him....suck it up Joe, don't care if I embarrass you.

If I am 'influenced' by alcohol, feel free to delete/alter/change/fix up.... be ware if you get it wrong, I will wack you! Or perhaps I will ask you nicely to sort it. Bless Joe!


----------



## Joe Blow

Ann said:


> Now the next major question is....How do we get Joe elected as the next PM of Australia?
> 
> The one question I would ask of Joe...are you anti-nuclear power?
> 
> (no I am not dead folks...busy in my garden and creating the perfect trading plan, which is pretty much the same thing! Be back soon-ish )




Ann, I'd be a terrible politician. I can't lie with a straight face, nor am I any good at double talk or obfuscation. I also feel terrible when I let others down. To top it all off I have no desire for power, political or otherwise. I'd be an abject failure.

These days I mostly dream about five acres of fertile land and a little cottage so I could spend my days growing vegetables and listening to the birds and the sound of the wind whispering through the leaves on the trees. 

As for nuclear power, I prefer renewables. We have this huge ball of energy sitting only 150 million kilometres away that sends us all this sunlight for free. You'd think we'd be able to utilise it more for power generation than we currently are, especially given all the empty land we have in this country.


----------



## Ann

Joe Blow said:


> Ann, I'd be a terrible politician. I can't lie with a straight face, nor am I any good at double talk or obfuscation. I also feel terrible when I let others down. To top it all off I have no desire for power, political or otherwise. I'd be an abject failure.
> 
> These days I mostly dream about five acres of fertile land and a little cottage so I could spend my days growing vegetables and listening to the birds and the sound of the wind whispering through the leaves on the trees.
> 
> As for nuclear power, I prefer renewables. We have this huge ball of energy sitting only 150 million kilometres away that sends us all this sunlight for free. You'd think we'd be able to utilise it more for power generation than we currently are, especially given all the empty land we have in this country.



Man after my own heart!

If I was a decade or two younger I would propose!

Do what you do best, run an amazing community!

Joe, bless and keep. We need you.


----------



## SirRumpole

Joe Blow said:


> Ann, I'd be a terrible politician. I can't lie with a straight face, nor am I any good at double talk or obfuscation. I also feel terrible when I let others down. To top it all off I have no desire for power, political or otherwise. I'd be an abject failure.
> 
> These days I mostly dream about five acres of fertile land and a little cottage so I could spend my days growing vegetables and listening to the birds and the sound of the wind whispering through the leaves on the trees.
> 
> As for nuclear power, I prefer renewables. We have this huge ball of energy sitting only 150 million kilometres away that sends us all this sunlight for free. You'd think we'd be able to utilise it more for power generation than we currently are, especially given all the empty land we have in this country.




I think I love you too Joe.


----------



## Joe Blow

Thank you both for the kind words. 

Now my image as a Marlon Brando type tough guy is in ruins.


----------



## Ann

Joe Blow said:


> Thank you both for the kind words.
> 
> Now my image as a Marlon Brando type tough guy is in ruins.




No way, you are the Boss!


----------



## Ann

There are no moderators, just one Joe.

He is fair, sensible, reasonable, equitable and all the rest. But most of all, what he says is the bottom line.


----------



## Ann

Who is that whispering in your ear? Fcuk him off.


----------



## Zaxon

Joe Blow said:


> These days I mostly dream about five acres of fertile land and a little cottage so I could spend my days growing vegetables and listening to the birds and the sound of the wind whispering through the leaves on the trees.



That's sounds very nice. Until the people from General Chat find out where you live, and invite themselves over to your cottage to share their latest views on religion


----------



## Joe Blow

Zaxon said:


> That's sounds very nice. Until the people from General Chat find out where you live, and invite themselves over to your cottage to share their latest views on religion




Trust me, they won't find me. I'll cover my tracks well. Very well.

In any case, I'm less political today than I've ever been and I find dogmatic political bomb throwing to be tedious and boring. Can't stomach it. So if they do find me, I'll have to set the dogs on them.

What I want for ASF is the same thing I wanted on the day I started it: to have a constructive stock market focused community where people are courteous and civil to each other, help each other, share knowledge unselfishly and engage in discussion and debate with each other in a respectful way.

Is that too much to ask?


----------



## sptrawler

Jeez you guy's, I'm starting to tear up, with all this group hug stuff.
Ann put the bottle away, you are starting to make it sound, like a dating site.


----------



## Ann

sptrawler said:


> Jeez you guy's, I'm starting to tear up, with all this group hug stuff.
> Ann put the bottle away, you are starting to make it sound, like a dating site.



Nah, Literotica is my dating site of choice after a draught or two....if you are very good I will give you my Lit Name. I write erotic stories and haiku amongst other stuff!


----------



## Ann

Ann said:


> Nah, Literotica is my dating site of choice after a draught or two....if you are very good I will give you my Lit Name. I write erotic stories and haiku amongst other stuff!




Raw Silk


----------



## Smurf1976

Joe Blow said:


> Trust me, they won't find me. I'll cover my tracks well. Very well.



You can cover the track but thankfully that's not the only way.

Just follow the power line from the road and at the end will be the cottage.


----------



## sptrawler

Ann said:


> Nah, Literotica is my dating site of choice after a draught or two....if you are very good I will give you my Lit Name. I write erotic stories and haiku amongst other stuff!



I still haven't thanked you for posting up Disturbed "Sounds of Silence", I just have to keep replaying it, magic song thanks for the heads up. 
Just another of the great threads on ASF, that isn't stock related, that makes it the best online financial forum.


----------



## Ann

sptrawler said:


> I still haven't thanked you for posting up Disturbed "Sounds of Silence", I just have to keep replaying it, magic song thanks for the heads up.
> Just another of the great threads on ASF, that isn't stock related, that makes it the best online financial forum.



You just want some erotic haiku! Confess!


----------



## Smurf1976

Joe Blow said:


> In any case, I'm less political today than I've ever been and I find dogmatic political bomb throwing to be tedious and boring. Can't stomach it.



I'll make a bold prediction, and I'm being serious here, that the purely political stuff that comes up in General Chat will burn out of its own accord before too much longer and the focus will shift toward economic debate.

That's a serious prediction by the way not a sarcastic one.


----------



## Joe Blow

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll make a bold prediction, and I'm being serious here, that the purely political stuff that comes up in General Chat will burn out of its own accord before too much longer and the focus will shift toward economic debate.
> 
> That's a serious prediction by the way not a sarcastic one.




Let's hope so.


----------



## sptrawler

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll make a bold prediction, and I'm being serious here, that the purely political stuff that comes up in General Chat will burn out of its own accord before too much longer and the focus will shift toward economic debate.
> 
> That's a serious prediction by the way not a sarcastic one.



I tend to agree with you, there already seems to be a much more serene political climate, since the election. 
Hopefully politics can get off the front page of the papers, and the politicians can just get on with their jobs, and maybe the reporters will get back to theirs.


----------



## SirRumpole

sptrawler said:


> I tend to agree with you, there already seems to be a much more serene political climate, since the election.
> Hopefully politics can get off the front page of the papers, and the politicians can just get on with their jobs, and maybe the reporters will get back to theirs.




Not the way the media works these days.

Papers are past it and will probably be dead in 5 years. I have only bought one or two in the last 10 years.

"Reporters" have turned into "commentators" and have to keep churning out trivia every day in order to get paid. Quality journalism has been replaced by volume and a desperate rush to break a story before any one else gets to it.

There is little dissection of policy, just the quest for the ultimate "gotcha".

I can't really set it ending because gradually the serious media is being eaten up by the "entertainment" industry, eg the disappearance of Fairfax into Nine. It's all pretty sad really.


----------



## captain black

Joe Blow said:


> These days I mostly dream about five acres of fertile land and a little cottage so I could spend my days growing vegetables and listening to the birds and the sound of the wind whispering through the leaves on the trees.




If the opportunity comes up grab it with both hands @Joe Blow, it's a great lifestyle.

After years of wwoofing (wwoofing on a farm in the Grampians at the moment) and growing vegies on our 1/4 acre backyard we made the move a couple of years ago. We liked the idea of being part of a community of like-minded people so we ended up buying a share in a few hundred acre permaculture community, but having wwoofed on smaller farms I can see the appeal of just a few acres growing your own food.


----------



## Joe Blow

captain black said:


> If the opportunity comes up grab it with both hands @Joe Blow, it's a great lifestyle.
> 
> After years of wwoofing (wwoofing on a farm in the Grampians at the moment) and growing vegies on our 1/4 acre backyard we made the move a couple of years ago. We liked the idea of being part of a community of like-minded people so we ended up buying a share in a few hundred acre permaculture community, but having wwoofed on smaller farms I can see the appeal of just a few acres growing your own food.




Thanks Captain. It's more of a medium term plan at the moment as it takes some manouvering to get yourself out of the city and find the right location where you can make it all work somehow.

I'm determined to do it but it may take a number of years of planning and scheming before it becomes a reality. I have noticed that rural property takes a lot longer to shift than urban property and the prices are much more affordable, so it's just a matter of waiting for the right one to come up at the right price, and at the right time.


----------



## SirRumpole

Joe Blow said:


> Thanks Captain. It's more of a medium term plan at the moment as it takes some manouvering to get yourself out of the city and find the right location where you can make it all work somehow.
> 
> I'm determined to do it but it may take a number of years of planning and scheming before it becomes a reality. I have noticed that rural property takes a lot longer to shift than urban property and the prices are much more affordable, so it's just a matter of waiting for the right one to come up at the right price, and at the right time.




I made to move from the city to the country 20 years ago and never looked back.

You won't regret it, but the downside is that services are limited and it can be boring at times.

If that doesn't bother you and you enjoy peace and quiet then country life is the way to go.

Best of luck on your journey.


----------



## captain black

Joe Blow said:


> I'm determined to do it but it may take a number of years of planning and scheming before it becomes a reality.




My number 1 piece of advice is to make sure an outdoor pizza oven is top of the list in your initial building plans. People will come from miles around and help you do just about anything if there's a promise of home made, home grown, wood fired pizza at the end of the day


----------



## Zaxon

Joe Blow said:


> What I want for ASF is the same thing I wanted on the day I started it: to have a constructive stock market focused community where people are courteous and civil to each other, help each other, share knowledge unselfishly and engage in discussion and debate with each other in a respectful way.
> 
> Is that too much to ask?



I'm wondering if the answer to that lies in heavy moderation.  On another stock forum I use, moderators are highly active.  Name calling, flaming, baiting, off-topic messages are all moderated. In the system they use, the post stays, the content is removed, and a reason such as "removed for name calling" is inserted in place.  I think it has the advantage of shaming people, if they start getting visibly moderated messages left under their name.

On the other hand, a lot of people will demand free speech, and say that people are just "too sensitive".  But this is a private board with a specific purpose.  There's no right to free speech. Your stated objective is to clean up the board, keep it market focus, and keep people civil and courteous.  You could moderate all messages that don't serve those goals.  'X' number of moderated message in a month, your account gets suspended for a month etc.  Repeat offenders get their accounts locked.

Just mentioning this as an alternative, since I've seen this in action elsewhere.


----------



## Joe Blow

SirRumpole said:


> I made to move from the city to the country 20 years ago and never looked back.
> 
> You won't regret it, but the downside is that services are limited and it can be boring at times.
> 
> If that doesn't bother you and you enjoy peace and quiet then country life is the way to go.
> 
> Best of luck on your journey.




Thanks to the internet I don't think I've been bored since the 1990s. 

I'm looking for a change of pace, peace and quiet and a simpler, more relaxed way of life. I'm tired of the rat race, the pollution, the traffic and the noise of the city. My gut tells me it's time to change gears and focus on lifestyle.

I'm just about to crack the big five oh and am finding I am starting to want different things now.


----------



## SirRumpole

Joe Blow said:


> Thanks to the internet I don't think I've been bored since the 1990s.
> 
> I'm looking for a change of pace, peace and quiet and a simpler, more relaxed way of life. I'm tired of the rat race, the pollution, the traffic and the noise of the city. My gut tells me it's time to change gears and focus on lifestyle.
> 
> I'm just about to crack the big five oh and am finding I am starting to want different things now.




Yes, the very reasons I got out, plus I'm not a people person and having to put up with hordes of people every day was starting to wear.

You are right about the internet though, without it and the knowledge it brings life would be much less diverse.

And if you do move we can be comforted by the fact that you can maintain this site even in your peaceful repose.


----------



## PZ99

Hi @Zaxon

I can't speak for anyone else but turning ASF into a police state won't do us any good. Seen it happen on other forums where it's virtually impossible for a site owner to use heavy moderation without being accused of favoritism and/or blowing up the neighbourhood. Not fair to Joe to take on that kind of role and extra workload.

I seem to remember Joe saying he started this site to escape the above attributes on other sites.

I think hiding the general chat from the update tabs, as well as using the ignore function and reporting evil posts is the right mix for now


----------



## barney

Joe Blow said:


> *I'm just about to crack the big five oh*




Still a spring chicken


----------



## Joe Blow

Zaxon said:


> I'm wondering if the answer to that lies in heavy moderation.  On another stock forum I use, moderators are highly active.  Name calling, flaming, baiting, off-topic messages are all moderated. In the system they use, the post stays, the content is removed, and a reason such as "removed for name calling" is inserted in place.  I think it has the advantage of shaming people, if they start getting visibly moderated messages left under their name.
> 
> On the other hand, a lot of people will demand free speech, and say that people are just "too sensitive".  But this is a private board with a specific purpose.  There's no right to free speech. Your stated objective is to clean up the board, keep it market focus, and keep people civil and courteous.  You could moderate all messages that don't serve those goals.  'X' number of moderated message in a month, your account gets suspended for a month etc.  Repeat offenders get their accounts locked.
> 
> Just mentioning this as an alternative, since I've seen this in action elsewhere.




Outside of a handful of political and religious threads I don't think things are too bad here. In those threads there are a small minority of people who take extremely dogmatic positions and who allow emotion to get the better of them. I think that if threads on political and religious topics are to be permitted this is kind of inevitable.

I am personally opposed to online communities that are run like police states. People hate being micromanaged even though some expect others they don't like to be micromanaged. Australians push back against this pretty strongly and I think that the atmosphere here would be just as toxic, just in a different way. I suppose in the same way that real police states are toxic.

But the main reason why I would oppose heavy handed moderation is because people have the tools to ignore people, threads and entire forums. In those circumstances the onus shifts to the individual to control their own experience here at ASF and to ensure that discussions and people they find distasteful are filtered out.


----------



## jbocker

Joe Blow said:


> ...
> I'm just about to crack the big five oh and am finding I am starting to want different things now.



The fifties are good years. In a some cases people are in their peak earnings and the debts have diminished (including kids moved out). Leave has built up and weekends have a little more freedom...
ah oh.. 
sorry I must have dozed off....


----------



## SirRumpole

Joe Blow said:


> Outside of a handful of political and religious threads I don't think things are too bad here. In those threads there are a small minority of people who take extremely dogmatic positions and who allow emotion to get the better of them. I think that if threads on political and religious topics are to be permitted this is kind of inevitable.




Compared to other sites I've seen, this place is a church when it comes to "lively debate".

Things may get slightly warm sometimes but they usually settle down without moderator interference.

Plus the fact that expecting a moderator to read every post and decide what's in or out would be soul destroying for them.

I don't think I've ever seen a post here that I felt compelled to report. (Maybe people have reported me, I don't know). Most of us prefer to either ignore flaming/trolling or handle it ourselves.

Bottom line, things are fine as they are.


----------



## Joe Blow

SirRumpole said:


> Compared to other sites I've seen, this place is a church when it comes to "lively debate".
> 
> Things may get slightly warm sometimes but they usually settle down without moderator interference.
> 
> Plus the fact that expecting a moderator to read every post and decide what's in or out would be soul destroying for them.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen a post here that I felt compelled to report. Most of us prefer to either ignore flaming/trolling or handle it ourselves.
> 
> Bottom line, things are fine as they are.




There are no online communities that are drama free. Facebook is a haven for trolls and idiots and I think we compare pretty well.

What's wrong with ASF in my opinion is the balance. This is a stock market focused community and people need to respect that. If I have failed, it is in failing to maintain that focus and balance. Those who have no interest in financial markets and only want to post in religious and political threads should not be here.

Having a General Chat focus does this community great damage and I am still very torn about the best way to deal with it. I have said it before and I will say it again for emphasis, this community is not sustainable long term as a General Chat focused community. It will inevitably fail and disappear. So my message to those who only post in General Chat is this: please give back to this community by posting and contributing to threads in other forums. Help maintain the balance and respect ASF's primary focus and purpose.


----------



## sptrawler

jbocker said:


> The fifties are good years. In a some cases people are in their peak earnings and the debts have diminished (including kids moved out). Leave has built up and weekends have a little more freedom...
> ah oh..
> sorry I must have dozed off....



I found 50, was an age where I assessed where I was, and where I wanted to end up when I reached retirement. IMO it is the time that you can change the outcome, after 50 options and earnings potential diminish, financial recovery time disappears.


----------



## Dark Knight 2.0

Facebook has a forum function doesn't it - you can turn Facebook into a Forum?



Someone set up an ASF GC Facebook forum, link it back here in GC section.
I nominate @SirRumpole as Administrator


----------



## jbocker

Joe with respect for your search regarding the 5 commandments of the ASF. From my perspective this is one of my go-to sites of all things on the internet. I am not that big on shares and trade really only on gut feel analysis of the company news and rudimentary chart trends. A punter many would say. I enjoy it. I understand that I need to be careful but I cannot commit the time to be more knowledgeable on robust trading strategies.
I use this site to give me insights into stocks and for a history of opinion. People throw up some charts and comment on patterns, nearly all of which I don't understand but still fascinated.
General chat is an area that allows me to see general opinions on matters and news. I don't expect there needs to be much moderation on the whole site because in the main you must have and continue to do a very good job. As you mentioned there are enough tools readily available. 
General Chat : I can get a broad range of viewpoints and arguments from fairly level headed contributors, but there sometimes a flaring of passions. I don't like name calling and if I see it, gives me insight of the name caller. Joe, I would not like to see General Chat go but if it causes you too much work Joe I will certainly respect that decision.
So to readers many of you I admire you contributions (wont embarrass you by naming anyone) keep it coming, and thank you for allowing me a safe place to communicate and for tolerating what may be clumsiness and shallow contribution to the shares and stocks.


----------



## Joe Blow

jbocker said:


> General Chat : I can get a broad range of viewpoints and arguments from fairly level headed contributors, but there sometimes a flaring of passions. I don't like name calling and if I see it, gives me insight of the name caller. Joe, I would not like to see General Chat go but if it causes you too much work Joe I will certainly respect that decision.




There's a very good reason why General Chat is still here and that's because I think it rounds out a community and allows people to talk about off-topic stuff in their down time. It's no fun to be all business all the time. We all need to let our hair down and post up our travel photos, talk about our hobbies or about being a vegan or whatever. It's a good thing. We all need to change gears.

What's not a good thing is when General Chat takes over a community that is focused around a specialised area (for example the stock market). Then it dilutes the purpose and focus of that community. It also makes it difficult for that community to grow because people show up with an interest in the stock market and see that most of the discussion is about Jordan Petersen, Islam or some other controversial topic and they promptly turn around and walk away. That is the damage I referred to in one of my previous posts.

I have only ever wanted what is best for this community. That has been my sole agenda from the word go. I'm not here to push political barrows or mould the community in any way other than to try and make it a place that people want to be. The problem for me is that I tolerate a lot that other people wouldn't, especially in these extremely politically correct times. I'm far more interested in why people believe what they do then what they actually believe. Some people mistake that for endorsement. It's not. I can assure everyone that I disagree with most of what is posted in political and religious threads in General Chat, I just let it go because I lean more towards free speech than censorship. Which probably makes me the worst possible person to be doing this, but I started it so here I am. Don't get me wrong, posts are removed and people reprimanded and banned but probably less here than elsewhere.

But I realise now that in taking such a laissez faire approach to forum management I have made a grave miscalculation. I let General Chat run riot and I didn't keep it in check. ASF has always had a very popular General Chat forum, right from the beginning. But from 2004 until 2009 there was much more stock chat than general chat. The GFC kind of blasted a lot of punters out of the market and the stock chat started to slow. The problem is that the general chat didn't. To me it was still activity and that’s how I rationalised it. I thought that things would eventually turn around and the balance would return. It didn't and it still hasn't. There are a variety of reasons for that, the two big ones being the rise of ETFs and passive investing and the rise of other discussion platforms such as Facebook Groups. A lot of people have thrown their lot in with Zuckerberg and that has definitely had a big impact.

I'm going into far more detail than is probably necessary but context is important.

So we've never really gotten back on track since the GFC and General Chat slowly started to take over. It's easy to say, well do something about it, but restrictions are hard to implement and believe me I've considered them all. Most of them just aren't practicable. You can make rules saying you can't talk about this or that or you can only post so many posts in General Chat per day. None of it really works. HC tried to get rid of political discussion years ago and that failed also.

Some of you old timers may remember we used to have a rule that you needed to post at least 100 characters in posts in stock threads to try and encourage more content instead of useless posts about a stock being up another 1%. It was well intentioned but it never worked. People just padded out their short posts with "blah blah blah blah" or "............................................". So I pulled the plug on the rule when I upgraded the forum software at the end of 2010. One of the great myths about controlling people is that it's easy. It's not. People resist being forced to do anything. You just get the middle finger in return. So you either have to be a complete dictator or try persuasion. I'm not a dictator so persuasion was my only hope. Needless to say, that has failed too.

So that's a bit of an insight into what I'm up against. I've realised that the only real change has to come from the community itself. I can't force people to change, people must change of their own volition. It must be voluntary and because they want to do it. So I'm going to try again with some persuasion because it's the only weapon that still remains in my arsenal. I just don't have an iron fist.

The way back from where we are is to have more stock chat, more trading chat, more investing chat, and more economics chat than general chat. I don't want to sound like a broken record but it's the simple unvarnished truth. So if anyone would like to lend a hand, I'd really appreciate it. Other than that, please be nice to each other and help those that ask for it if you can. The world can be a pretty ugly place, it's nice to have an oasis that people can escape to where people are actually nice and kind to each other. There's no reason why ASF can't be that place. Just don't bring your anger, frustration or resentment with you when you log in. Leave that baggage at the door.

That’s about it.


----------



## sptrawler

That's a very interesting insight Joe, thanks for posting it, from my personal observations recently there appears to be more stock and technical chatter.
I think the steps you have taken, will work and explaining the fundamentals of the issue helps.
I'm with you regarding U.S politics, people should get involved with a U.S forum, if they are that interested.
I think also the domestic political scene has been chaotic, over recent years and has caused a lot of angst and discussion on ASF.
Hopefully you can give us a heads up periodically, on how the forum is travelling and if the desired changes are occurring.
The other problem I have is, I'm not on facebook, so without ASF i'll be in the same boat as jbocker


----------



## captain black

Great post Joe, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I've had an incredibly frustrating day today but it's been very cathartic being able to log in to ASF and read and post and take my mind off things. Thank you for keeping this place going as long as you have.



Joe Blow said:


> Just don't bring your anger, frustration or resentment with you when you log in. Leave that baggage at the door.




+1


----------



## tech/a

The way back Joe 
I think you’ve nailed it.


----------



## Joe Blow

Thanks guys. That post has been a long time coming but I've held back for some reason. Tonight I just decided to unload and feel better for having done so. 

I don't usually open up so much but with the million post mark just around the corner it feels like we're at a bit of a crossroads so I just thought I'd put it out there for others to ponder for a moment or two.


----------



## sptrawler

Joe Blow said:


> Thanks guys. That post has been a long time coming but I've held back for some reason. Tonight I just decided to unload and feel better for having done so.
> 
> I don't usually open up so much but with the million post mark just around the corner it feels like we're at a bit of a crossroads so I just thought I'd put it out there for others to ponder for a moment or two.



Julia would be smiling mate.


----------



## explod

I have gradually grown away from general chat as I have found it often very intimidating and I do not want to hit back into arguments anymore myself.   

Why can there not be a compete division, the investment on the leader page of the site with a notice/direction to the unrelated general chat.


----------



## Joe Blow

explod said:


> I have gradually grown away from general chat as I have found it often very intimidating and I do not want to hit back into arguments anymore myself.




The discussion in political and religious threads (and threads on global warming) reminds me of banging one's head against a brick wall. Unpleasant and something I can do without.



explod said:


> Why can there not be a compete division, the investment on the leader page of the site with a notice/direction to the unrelated general chat.




Changes are coming. I have plans for a software upgrade and new wesbite redesign after we get past one million posts. I will be starting a thread asking for suggestions and feedback soon.


----------



## SirRumpole

If the presence of GC was driving people away, then it's absence from the recent forum posts and the effort required to find GC should bring back those interested in stocks.

Personally I'm not interested in day to day stock trading so I have nothing to contribute there. I think individuals are being sucked in by high frequency traders that have instant access to price/volume data etc.

Long term value trading is where I should be I think, but maybe that's not as sexy as day trading and certainly doesn't generate as much interest on a forum like this as the owner would want.

Due to complaints about GC I'm going to *try* to limit my posts there to out of stock market hours.

Apart from the Folau thread (which I probably regret starting now) there are lots of interesting threads that bear on the financial markets in some way, the Electricity thread for one, electric cars etc but which don't fit into any other category but GC. It would be a pity if these disappeared.

Like it or not, international politics has direct relevance to financial markets. The US/China issue, Brexit etc affect us either directly or indirectly. Dismissing it as "just politics" is to ignore it's obvious relevance to our welfare. The same argument can be made about local politics, taxation policy etc. I don't see how this issue can be ignored either.


----------



## Joe Blow

SirRumpole said:


> If the presence of GC was driving people away, then it's absence from the recent forum posts and the effort required to find GC should bring back those interested in stocks.




I hope so.



SirRumpole said:


> Long term value trading is where I should be I think, but maybe that's not as sexy as day trading and certainly doesn't generate as much interest on a forum like this as the owner would want.




You may be surprised.



SirRumpole said:


> Due to complaints about GC I'm going to *try* to limit my posts there to out of stock market hours.




A good alternative to the General Chat forum is the Business, Investment and Economics forum. Lots of interesting threads in there on topics that verge on general but also have business or economic angles. The national and global economies are topics of vital importance that deserve robust discussion and debate.



SirRumpole said:


> Apart from the Folau thread (which I probably regret starting now) there are lots of interesting threads that bear on the financial markets in some way, the Electricity thread for one, electric cars etc but which don't fit into any other category but GC. It would be a pity if these disappeared.




There are many more in the Business, Investment and Economics forum.


----------



## HelloU

comment:
i nearly always look as a guest to see what "new posts" have been made ...... i never scroll down on the home page but just hit the big green button to see what is new ........ that means as a "casual looker" i am unaware that some recent posts even exist ........ and i do not understand how that is an advantage to the site for those posts to not even be visible in the list.


----------



## HelloU

HelloU said:


> comment:
> i nearly always look as a guest to see what "new posts" have been made ...... i never scroll down on the home page but just hit the big green button to see what is new ........ that means as a "casual looker" i am unaware that some recent posts even exist ........ and i do not understand how that is an advantage to the site for those posts to not even be visible in the list.



soz peeps,
that was meant to go into that other thread about forum changes as a comment for Joe .......
(i sorta wondered why the post did not show up there .... and just convinced myself that i did not actually post it - i gotta drink less - and that drink comment of course was to screw with greggles )
@Joe Blow


----------



## Joe Blow

HelloU said:


> that means as a "casual looker" i am unaware that some recent posts even exist ........ and i do not understand how that is an advantage to the site for those posts to not even be visible in the list.




ASF gets a lot of search engine traffic from people searching on Google for stock market related terms. Many may also be looking for a stock market discussion venue and are potential new members. To arrive here and be confronted with threads on Islam, Jordan Petersen and gay marriage probably turns a lot off.

If the General Chat threads are to remain it seems prudent to sweep them under the carpet so that newcomers only see stock market related content. After all, that's probably what they are looking for.


----------



## tech/a

Nailed it agin in my opinion Joe

Back to basics


----------



## HelloU

Joe Blow said:


> ASF gets a lot of search engine traffic from people searching on Google for stock market related terms. Many may also be looking for a stock market discussion venue and are potential new members. To arrive here and be confronted with threads on Islam, Jordan Petersen and gay marriage probably turns a lot off.
> 
> If the General Chat threads are to remain it seems prudent to sweep them under the carpet so that newcomers only see stock market related content. After all, that's probably what they are looking for.



only commented cos u said "re-design" and i thought how i did not even know till yesty that the tech chart thing, and another thread had been put into use again (due to how i do not scroll down the home page but just hit the green button as a guest) ... but then i also use 150% windows scale so i am not sure what that "cuts-off" the viewing window of the home page ...

(probably 2 too many probably in urs)


----------



## Joe Blow

HelloU said:


> only commented cos u said "re-design" and i thought how i did not even know till yesty that the tech chart thing had been put into use again




Sorry I misunderstood.

This is because tech/a's thread is in the private members forum and isn't visible to those who aren't registered and logged in. Tick the checkbox that says "Stay logged in" when you log in and you won't get logged out again until you log out manually. I only ever log out if there is a reason for it and that happens very rarely.


----------



## Zaxon

Joe Blow said:


> This is because tech/a's thread is in the private members forum and isn't visible to those who aren't registered and logged in.



You may have inadvertently provided a solution.  General Chat goes private, so not accessible to search engines.  Sign up as a member to access it.


----------



## jbocker

Zaxon said:


> You may have inadvertently provided a solution.  General Chat goes private, so not accessible to search engines.  Sign up as a member to access it.




I was just about to type the same thing. Great (quicker) thinking Zaxon. Maybe extend that to other sites that might be marginal. Joe can you just open up stock threads and other Finance threads that show up on Gooogle. Long time since I joined but new members given a check box list of what they want to turn on; General Chat can be off by default.


----------



## Joe Blow

Zaxon said:


> You may have inadvertently provided a solution.  General Chat goes private, so not accessible to search engines.  Sign up as a member to access it.




Unfortunately that would kill a lot of ASF's search engine traffic and page impressions. A little known fact is that we rank very well for search terms like "dead rat in wall cavity", "passionfruit problem" and "msg kills cats".

It might not be the most relevant traffic but does provide a lot of page impressions and surprisingly, clicks on ads.

It's a really tricky balance to get right, but I need to keep traffic levels up because page impressions equal revenue. Even if I had closed General Chat I would have left it open to search engines. There's some really useful information in some of the threads in there.


----------



## SirRumpole

Joe Blow said:


> Unfortunately that would kill a lot of ASF's search engine traffic and page impressions. A little known fact is that we rank very well for search terms like "dead rat in wall cavity", "passionfruit problem" and "msg kills cats".
> 
> It might not be the most relevant traffic but does provide a lot of page impressions and surprisingly, clicks on ads.




Haha what a hoot.

ASF came in second for "dead rat in wall cavity" search.

I wonder how it goes for "Horror: Lesbians assaulted by vampires in Martin Place".

See, I told you there is no such thing as bad publicity.


----------



## Joe Blow

SirRumpole said:


> Haha what a hoot.
> 
> ASF came in second for "dead rat in wall cavity" search.
> 
> I wonder how it goes for "Horror: Lesbians assaulted by vampires in Martin Place".
> 
> See, I told you there is no such thing as bad publicity.




The largest day of traffic in ASF's history was thanks to Pauline Hanson. I think we still rank fairly well for "Pauline Hanson nudes".


----------



## Joules MM1

Joe Blow said:


> The largest day of traffic in ASF's history was thanks to Pauline Hanson. I think we still rank fairly well for "Pauline Hanson nudes".




lol
fortunately the lonwinded bear market is all-but over and out the window goes the garbage

proactive positivity always becomes tangible in the middle of an upleg (as we see in this thread)

hello, xjo


----------



## jbocker

Joe Blow said:


> The largest day of traffic in ASF's history was thanks to Pauline Hanson. I think we still rank fairly well for "Pauline Hanson nudes".




There may have been a few of them searching for the above nude (shudder) and ended up on the ASF. May have found ASC and bought a shipload of shares.


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## Smurf1976

Thinking about all this, I think Joe’s solution is the right one but we can all help too.

In terms of the “why?” aspect of General Chat I think at least some of it comes down to this being one of the few places where you’ll find a group of intelligent and generally civil individuals. The knowledge, balance of views and general conduct on this forum leaves many others and the mainstream media for dead.

On the other hand it has something in common with a workplace. Ultimately we all (presumably) came here to make money. There might be exceptions hut not many are going to do a search for “stock market forum”, find ASF and sign up if they’re not intending to make a profit from investing. Likewise Joe is running a business not a charity.

As with any workplace, a bit of idle chatter can bring benefits via team building and so on but ultimately it’s not getting the work done and isn’t making money. There’s a limit to the volume of it beyond which it becomes a major problem.

So I suggest that in addition to the changes to the forum which Joe is looking after, the rest of us note that Monday marks the start of a new business week, a new month and a new financial year too. That seems like a perfect opportunity to make an effort at shifting the focus.

My personal view is that it’s politics and religion which are the problem with GC. There is after all a limit to how many travel photos, recipes and photos of their pet snail anyone can sensibly post so that sort of thing ought to be self limiting in volume. Plus nobody’s likely to be offended by it.

With the political threads I also think the missing detail is the investment implications. Next time there’s an election somewhere, surely the most obvious focus is what implications a win by party x has for our investments?


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## Zaxon

@Joe Blow, I've never seen you post about investing.  So I'm curious, is it that you feel you don't have something to contribute? Or is it a strategic decision to stay purely administrative and not join in with finance posts, even though you'd actually like to?


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## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> With the political threads I also think the missing detail is the investment implications. Next time there’s an election somewhere, surely the most obvious focus is what implications a win by party x has for our investments?




Indeed so. Sometimes the investment connections are a bit loose though.

eg the story that industry super funds want to invest in nuclear energy. Should we be concerned about this ? Does it threaten the security of members of those super funds ? Given the costs involved in nuclear energy, is this a wise investment ?

etc.


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## Joe Blow

Zaxon said:


> Or is it a strategic decision to stay purely administrative and not join in with finance posts, even though you'd actually like to.




This is the reason. I've only ever made a handful of posts here outside my role as administrator. Most of them are in the travel photos thread.

I chose my role when I started the forum. It makes sense to me that I keep it that way. I've participated on other forums as a regular member, but here I'm the administrator. I like to keep things simple and uncomplicated. If I mixed my roles it would cease to be that.


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## explod

The big silent issue here is climate change.   It is starting to effect business enormously and though few here, including our Captain do not want it discussed how can we stop it creeping in more and more.

There is a lot of good stuff on alternatives and perhaps if there was more acceptance of the reality we could turn it into the sites favour.


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## SirRumpole

explod said:


> The big silent issue here is climate change.   It is starting to effect business enormously and though few here, including our Captain do not want it discussed how can we stop it creeping in more and more.
> 
> There is a lot of good stuff on alternatives and perhaps if there was more acceptance of the reality we could turn it into the sites favour.




I agree with you plod, but it's getting a bit off topic for this thread. There are other threads for it, or you could start one about the investment implications of climate change.

Good to see you back btw.


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## explod

SirRumpole said:


> I agree with you plod, but it's getting a bit off topic for this thread. There are other threads for it, or you could start one about the investment implications of climate change.
> 
> Good to see you back btw.



I was thinking of this statement of Joe from yesterday when I wrote the above.:-

"The discussion in political and religious threads (and threads on global warming) reminds me of banging one's head against a brick wall. Unpleasant and something I can do without."

Unfortunately, maybe not here but I feel compelled that we must do something about it.


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## Smurf1976

explod said:


> I was thinking of this statement of Joe from yesterday when I wrote the above



A lot of these issues have common themes but those focused on any one issue tend to not see that.

Denial of science, obviously fake news from leaders, political conflict over trade, punishing those with dissenting views or who blow the whisle on wrongdoing and so on.

They all point to a world that’s becoming a much darker place in which to live but ultimately we’re not going to change that on ASF so may as well focus on something we can improve.


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## jbocker

SirRumpole said:


> I agree with you plod, but it's getting a bit off topic for this thread. There are other threads for it, or you could start one about the investment implications of climate change.
> ...



I guess the 'point of the argument' is the what makes it a suitable or not suitable ASF subject. As you have said _investment implications of climate change_ is a valid and worthwhile discussion. Having a to/fro argument about what we should(n't) be doing and melting this rising lowering that blah blah is far less relevant, becomes argumentative, divisive... maybe not a ASF topic. 
But how do you keep them separate. As soon as a slant is applied someone will argue against and it is off...topic.


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## Zaxon

jbocker said:


> melting this rising lowering that blah blah is far less relevant, becomes argumentative, divisive... maybe not a ASF topic.
> But how do you keep them separate.



Personally, I think a climate change topic on ASF should be: these are the stocks I own that are being affected by climate change, and the action they're taking.  I'm going to change how I allocate my capital, to take into account the change.  So show from an investing point of view, why climate change matters to you.

By contrast, if it is a philosophical discussion about climate change, that could take place on Facebook, or any generic forum.


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## basilio

Zaxon said:


> Personally, I think a climate change topic on ASF should be: these are the stocks I own that are being affected by climate change, and the action they're taking.  I'm going to change how I allocate my capital, to take into account the change.  So show from an investing point of view, why climate change matters to you.
> 
> By contrast, if it is a philosophical discussion about climate change, that could take place on Facebook, or any generic forum.




I suggest the issue around CC and its impact on the world is far bigger than just looking at individual stocks. In fact if we just reference some world leaders in money markets we would recognise  that the effects of business as usual operations will destroy our current systems within the life time of most people on this forum - let alone their children and grandchildren.

From an investment point of view there are big questions around

1) How do we deal with practices and industries that continue to pour Greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and deepen the crisis ?

2) How long can  our Insurance industry survive ever increasing disasters around floods, fire and extreme weather conditions ?

3)  At what point do rising sea levels have an undeniable impact on the viability of   coastal developments let along whole countries  ?

4)  At what point do rising temperatures make large areas of land including whole countries virtually uninhabitable ?
At this stage these aren't certainties.  But they are significant risks and business and investors  need to deal with risk management.  
So I agree with the premise that the effects of CC needs its own forum - but not one where the first impulse is to just rubbish the reality of what is happening. 

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nks-they-cannot-ignore-climate-change-dangers
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...hinking-greener-as-climate-change-hits-policy
http://fortune.com/2019/04/26/climate-change-central-banks/


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## SirRumpole

Good points bas.

Number 2 is a biggie in my opinion, insurance rates have skyrocketed and are well on the way to becoming unaffordable. 

It could be that the whole insurance industry is in peril, it should be  a major red flag for investors.


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## Dark Knight 2.0

At least once a day, sometimes more there's a post in the General Chat that is great comedy. Laughter is the best medicine boys and girls.


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## sptrawler

And here we go sliding off topic once again.lol


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## Smurf1976

On the climate issue my understanding is very much that it is a real issue but as a subject for debate it has a lot of difficulties.

First is that it takes on a very religious like nature and is framed around “belief” in the issue rather than any actual science. Almost always the question arises “do you believe in climate change?”.

People tend to have very strong views and critically, both sides argue that failing to adhere to their view will be met with drastic consequences.

Those attributes all have a lot in common with religion.

Israel Falou tells us that gays, drunks and indeed most of us are destined for some place called Hell. That’s standard religious stuff that’s been around forever.

Climate change advocates tell us that the coal industry is sending us all to hell and those on the other side warn of an economic hell.

If Hell was listed on the ASX then I’d be invested for sure. It’s a can’t lose business when there’s no competitor and it seems pretty much everyone’s going to be a customer.

Personally I’m an atheist and take a purely scientific approach to things like climate change with no “belief” involved. Hell is, in my view, a purely fictional place considerably less real than Mickey Mouse (since Disneyland most certainly does exist and Walt Disney was most certainly a real person) but there’s the trouble in all of this.

You might be able to get a classical music fan to accept heavy metal or electronic dance music as legitimate albeit not to their personal liking but there’s no chance of doing that when it comes to religion.

Real military wars get fought over this stuff so not a lot of chance we’re going to resolve it here.

May as well focus on making money out of it all then. It’s a stock market forum after all.

As for how to make that money, well it seems that there’s no Hell listed on the ASX so may have to look a bit deeper.


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## SirRumpole

Smurf1976 said:


> May as well focus on making money out of it all then. It’s a stock market forum after all.




Then I suggest investing in companies providing home insulation services, air conditioning and sunshades. 

CSR perhaps ?


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## Smurf1976

Is this the latest advertising Joe? 

Spotted today on a pole in SA:


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## Joe Blow

Smurf1976 said:


> Is this the latest advertising Joe?
> 
> Spotted today on a pole in SA:




Yeah, I've been doing a bit of guerilla marketing recently. I should have added the URL though.


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## Logique

The OP by Joe in 2004 is still relevant, I'm not sure I could improve on it.
Pretty sure I've breached Commandant 5 more than once :

_..*1. Thou shalt treat other ASF members with respect.
2. Thou shalt not ramp.
3. Thou shalt not ask for, nor offer, specific financial advice.
4. Thou shalt not spam your product, service or website.*_
*5. Think before thou posteth! *_..Joe Blow_


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## Joe Blow

Logique said:


> The OP by Joe in 2004 is still relevant, I'm not sure I could improve on it.
> Pretty sure I've breached Commandant 5 more than once :
> 
> _..*1. Thou shalt treat other ASF members with respect.
> 2. Thou shalt not ramp.
> 3. Thou shalt not ask for, nor offer, specific financial advice.
> 4. Thou shalt not spam your product, service or website.*_
> *5. Think before thou posteth! *_..Joe Blow_




I think most people have violated the fifth commandment at least once, myself included. But there is a reason the first commandment is first. It is the most important and determines the overall mood and atmosphere of ASF. There is no excuse for violating it, yet it is violated on an almost daily basis, usually in political threads.

Always treat others with respect, irrespective of whether you like or agree with them or their views. Respect and courtesy is the lynchpin of any successful online community.


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## Trav.

Joe Blow said:


> But there is a reason the first commandment is first. It is the most important and determines the overall mood and atmosphere of ASF. *There is no excuse for violating it*, yet it is violated on an almost daily basis




I dont normally buy into this type of issue but I believe that the site has let down @Ann as she was targeted by a few memebers and now she has not posted for a few months.

Regardless whether you agreed with the person or post or style I feel that all should be welcomed and that is why we have the ignore feature.


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## Joe Blow

Trav. said:


> I dont normally buy into this type of issue but I believe that the site has let down @Ann as she was targeted by a few memebers and now she has not posted for a few months.
> 
> Regardless whether you agreed with the person or post or style I feel that all should be welcomed and that is why we have the ignore feature.




Fair point Trav. It can sometimes be a fine line between criticism of someone's methodology or approach and bullying. I think the difference is in the way people conduct themselves. Nobody should be targeted and made to feel unwelcome under any circumstances. As you say, the ignore feature is there for a reason. People should use it rather than let others get under their skin.


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## tech/a

Joe Blow said:


> Fair point Trav. It can sometimes be a fine line between criticism of someone's methodology or approach and bullying. I think the difference is in the way people conduct themselves. Nobody should be targeted and made to feel unwelcome under any circumstances. As you say, the ignore feature is there for a reason. People should use it rather than let others get under their skin.




Ill put my hand up on this one.

Anne refused to simply show what she espoused.
Tech analysis gets a bum wrap all the time and
That's one reason why it does. *People with lots
of theory and no practical application.
*
Lots of babble about Money Flow Oscillators and
Moving Averages which are simply reflections on past
price action. You or I can come up with a myriad of
oscillators which simply reflect whats happened
What we all want to know is what is likely to happen
going forward and if it doesn't then what!

Take someone like Pete or Boggo.
Both are very clear in application.
Its not hard!


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