# Electrical advice



## Julia (25 October 2005)

I seem to recall at least one electrician forum member who has in the past posted electrical advice, and would be grateful if that person or anyone else with the appropriate qualifications could give me some info on the following:

I intend to change the running of all the equipment asssociated with swimming pool from Tariff 11 (full rate) to Tariff 33 (about half the cost) and have been assured by my local electricity supplier (Ergon) that will only mean power will be unavailable between the hours of 5 p.m and 9pm which is fine for my purposes.  This adviser has told me to get an electrician to "put in a wire for a new meter" and tell the electrician its purpose.  Then get back to the supplier and they will install the meter and do the switch over.  Sounds very straightforward.

Phoned an electrician today who said I would have to get a whole new meter box (have looked at the existing one and there's plenty of room for a third meter) and the whole job would cost about $400.  Doesn't sound very realistic or reasonable to me and I suspect he could be playing on my ignorance.  The Ergon adviser indicated it would be a fairly simple matter to add a third meter in my existing meter box.

If anyone can give me some indication of how complicated or otherwise this job is and a rough idea of the cost, I'd be really grateful.

Julia


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## GreatPig (25 October 2005)

Julia,

I've studied electrical engineering, but don't know anything about that stuff sorry.

Perhaps try asking a few more electricians.

Cheers,
GP


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## Hanrahan (26 October 2005)

Are you sure you don't already have meter installed for your hot water?

I would do as GP suggests and get another quote, but even if you must spend the money it would be worth it. You could then run your air cons off it too. I think you'll find they don't switch off the T33 for the whole time nor every day.


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## sam76 (26 October 2005)

Julia, I think Smurf is your man for this question.


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## Smurf1976 (26 October 2005)

Happy to help...   

You refer to a third meter. I assume that you already have an off-peak hot water heater connected to the shorter hours (night only, the cheapest rate) off-peak tariff in addition to the standard light &  power meter?

Any chance you could send a photo of the box? PM me for my email address. Also, how old is the switchboard (probably the same age as the house unless the house is very old)?

In general it shouldn't be a big job though so I am very suspicious of the price quoted. But it's possibly valid hence the questions.

I'm at work now so will post some more detailed response tonight. Also the supplier, Ergon, am I correct in saying that is in Queensland?


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## canny (26 October 2005)

Julia, looks like Smurf is well on the job - but just to confirm that my pool was hard wired to the existing low tariff water meter without needing a 3rd meter.


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## Julia (26 October 2005)

Many thanks for helpful replies.

Yes, certainly I'd get more quotes, but just thought I might be able to access some reliable info before doing so in order to know whether I'm getting the stuff that goes "she's a woman, she'll have no idea how much it should cost" (which of course is true).

Smurf, I don't have a photograph- in fact only a fairly old camera which isn't working properly.  The switchboard is nearly 13 years old (age of house).
It has a lift-up metal lid hinged at the top and there are two meters already and plenty of space for a third.  One meter is for Tariff 11 which is full rate for ordinary power.  The other is for Tariff 31 which is overnight only for the hot water.  Tariff 31 wouldn't be OK for the pool as I don't want to run either the pool or the heat pump after dark.

Yes, Ergon is regional Queensland

The box looks as if it was designed to carry a third meter as that sort of space is vacant.  These are across the top of the board, and all the fuses (trip switches?) - sorry I don't know the language - are lined up across the bottom.  

When I had the pool heat pump installed a few months ago an extra one of these switches or whatever was installed and labelled accordingly.

What I want to be able to do is run the pool pump, filter, solar pump and heat pump on Tariff 33 which will about halve my pool running costs.  Using the heat pump during the winter months pushed my quarterly power bill up to over $500 so if I can shave a bit off that it will certainly be worth the initial outlay.

Do appreciate the help.

Julia


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## money tree (26 October 2005)

you can either:

- have the hot water meter (31) changed to 33, and add the pool to it. there will be a small increase in the hot water bill. no meterbox upgrade is required.

or

- run the pool on tarriff 31. unless the noise is too much at night. again no meterbox upgrade required.

$400 is CHEAP for a meterbox upgrade. Most charge $650 - $900. Its not just a case of adding a 3rd meter. There is also another ripple control receiver to fit in there.

either of these options will cost around $200 - $250. A new "tarriff 33" main switch is required along with 2 subordinate circuit breakers for pool and HW. Also some cabling is required. Then there is the nasty paperwork which adds about half an hour.

hanrahan, if you run your A/C off any other tarriff than 11 you will be heavily fined.


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## Smurf1976 (26 October 2005)

money tree said:
			
		

> hanrahan, if you run your A/C off any other tarriff than 11 you will be heavily fined.



*Warning: Long post only of interest if you want to save some money on electricity. You could save 50%+ though so might be interesting to someone.*   

Your electricity distributor can generally approve non-standard uses of tariffs. In Queensland you can certainly run clothes dryers, domestic freezers, dishwashers, swimming pools and the like on off-peak if you want to PROVIDED THAT there is no means of switching it over to the continuous supply when the off-peak is off. The appliance will need to be permanently wired in (not plugged in) to meet this requirement. To comply with the Wiring Rules this generally precludes the connection of anything "portable". 

It would be unusual to connect an A/C to an off-peak tariff but some distributors may approve it. The case would certainly be enhanced for approval if there was a technical basis such as a high thermal mass in the house which limits temperature fluctuations thus not requiring 24-hour supply to the A/C. You would have to ask the electricity distributor what its view is since it will vary enormously between states and even between distributors (note: distributor as opposed to retailer although retailers also have their own rules) in the same state.

In Victoria some distributors offer discount 24-hour supply for A/C used for heating during Winter with standard rates applying in Summer. This makes the installation of a reverse cycle unit for both heating and cooling very attractive rather than using gas heating. You can also connect a bathroom Tastic to this (but only if A/C is also connected).

In Tasmania A/C is actually quite common despite the minimal need for cooling since it is by far the cheapest form of heating (and heating can be a significant cost in Tas). Aurora Energy offers a discount year-round tariff (T42) commonly known as "HydroHeat" (a term with which the general public in Tas is very familiar) for any permanently connected electric heating system (doesn't have to be A/C) installed in the main living area provided that it meets some simple technical requirements. Other heaters (except Tastics) anywhere in the house can also be connected to this as long as the main living area is connected as can smaller (not off-peak) hot water heaters. Can also be used to boost solar hot water etc. This is a 24-Hour tariff priced between the standard rate and the off-peak rates.

Off-peak conditions vary somewhat around the country but briefly it's as follows. The night only rate is always the cheapest with the extended hours off-peak being priced somewhere between that and the 24-hour rate.

Qld - Two rates either "night only" or for about 18 hours per day (minimum time, it's generally longer).

NSW - Very similar to Queensland. 

Both NSW and Qld use remote switching via high frequency injection and as such the actual times will vary a little from day to day according to actual power demand. The other states use timers installed at the switchboard - these are not adjustable except by the electricity supplier and are not generally adjusted for daylight savings.

Vic - Night only for hot water but an afternoon boost is available for space heating only. Different rate depending on how long it is on for at night (6 or 8 hours) and some distributors / retailers also offer a 4 hour rate which is _very_ cheap for boosting solar hot water. Most modern hot water heaters will be fine on 6 hours so don't pay for 8 hours unnecessarily. To check, divide the element rating in Watts (eg 4800W which is 4.8kW) by the size of the water tank (eg 315 litres) and if the number you get is close to 15 (or higher) then 6 hours will be fine. Typically the tank would be either 250l/3600W, 315l/4800W or 400l/6000W which are all fine on 6 hours. If it's 315 litre / 3600W etc then you need the 8 hours.

Tas - Night only (9 to 11 hours which is relatively long) or with an afternoon boost at a higher rate (usually about 13 hours per day in total but if you ask nicely and have a sensible reason then they'll generally be reasonable and give a bit more time). Either rate can be applied to hot water (including solar boost and heat pump water heaters), _storage_ space heating or anything else that is approved. Not for A/C etc (use HydroHeat).

SA - Night only. Used mainly for hot water. Not sure how flexible they are about other uses.

WA - Has an off-peak tariff in the SWIS (South-West Interconnected System - Perth and greater surrounds) area for 6 hours (night only). Not sure about their attitude to non-water heating uses. 

All states - if you have a TOU (Time Of Use) meter where the rates vary according to the time of the day (including Pay As You Go meters in Tas) then you could have your own timer and set whatever times you want according to how much you're prepared to pay. If doing this with hot water etc. then remember that it will run flat out when first switched on so start at a very cheap period and if you want to extend the time then extend the end (when it will often have turned itself off via the thermostat anyway) rather than bringing forward the start.


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## money tree (26 October 2005)

interesting smurf

I have asked Energex a few times about running A/C on tariff 33 and always receive a stern "NO". They argue that cheaper electricity will encourage more people to crank up the A/C during a heatwave, leading to brownouts. But our electrical infrastructure up here is as bad as it gets, so other states may be more relaxed.

trivia: leaving your computer on costs 30c an hour (or 40c if you leave the monitor on as well)


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## Smurf1976 (26 October 2005)

Julia said:
			
		

> Many thanks for helpful replies.
> 
> Yes, certainly I'd get more quotes, but just thought I might be able to access some reliable info before doing so in order to know whether I'm getting the stuff that goes "she's a woman, she'll have no idea how much it should cost" (which of course is true).
> 
> ...



If it's only 13 years old then there shouldn't be too many problems as long as everything fits. That really is the key - fitting everything in place.

In addition to the extra meter you will also need an additional ripple control switch (the switch that turns the off-peak on and off. They have various different common names depending on location). Ergon supplies this but it needs to fit on the switchboard. It will be the same size as the one that you would already have for the hot water. (It's possible that this may be installed on the back of the board and not be readily visible - different distributors will have different rules about where it goes but in general it should be easily visible).

So, if the extra meter and off-peak control will fit then that solves that problem. The next one is the switch for the pool euipment itself. There may not be enough space to fit additional circuit breakers ("circuit breaker" is the proper term for what are commonly called "switches", "trip switches" and so on) in the existing switchboard module (the plastic which surrounds the circuit breakers). This can be overcome by either replacing it with a larger module or adding a separate smaller one just for the pool. Either approach is safe - the question is one of fitting it all in. Replacing the module will add more to the labour cost than adding a separate module. If it were me then I would just add the additional small module unless there is a compelling reason (space or aesthetics, for example) not to.

As I said, it's a matter of space. $400 is excessive if it's just a simple wiring change and rearranging a circuit breaker or two. They're charging double if that's all that is required. But if there's a problem with fitting in the meters (sounds like there isn't) or fitting additonal circuit breakers then it doesn't sound too bad. In fact it sounds too cheap to be replacing the whole switchboard so I doubt there's a problem with fitting the meters in. 

Assuming that the meters aren't the problem, there's no point even considering running the hot water on the extended hours off-peak (18+ hours per day) since there would be little to gain apart from higher power bills. But if the meters are the problem then it's worth doing the sums. Your hot water bill would go up about 50% though so only do this if there really is a problem with the 3 meter option.

I would be asking them and anyone else you get a quote from to explain to you WHAT they are going to do and WHY they are going to do it.

Going off topic a bit but whilst you are doing this it's a good time to check if an RCD (Residual Current Device - "Safety Switch" as most people call them) is installed. These are compulsory in new houses and in some circumstances are compulsory in existing installations too. This has nothing to do with the changeover too off-peak but if you are doing anything to the switchboard then you don't want to install something that's too small to fit RCD's in and have to replace it later. And if you refer to them as RCD's rather than "safety switches" then the electrician will think you know something about it which can always help. RCD's are easily identifiable as they will have a "test" button on the front which trips the power off when pressed. Next to that is the reset button which turns it back on.

RDS's are there to protect human life from electrocution. They are quite effective but you should NEVER test the unit by putting a fork in a power point etc (believe me, people do it!). Just press the test button instead - there should be an immediate click and the power goes out. Push the reset button and it comes straight back on. RCD's do little to protect property from fire however. Circuit breakers, on the other hand, are there to protect property (by preventing fires) but are not effective at preventing electrocution. All homes will (or at least should!!!) have circuit breakers (of fuses if it's an older building) but many don't have RCD's. It's much safer to have both. One RCD can protect everything on that meter although if you have the $ then a separate one for the lighting circuit can avoid being plunged into darkness because something went wrong with the toaster. But if $ are an issue then it's quite OK to have the same one for the lights and everything else. (Note that things like water heaters, ovens etc. aren't generally connected to RCD's. Firstly because they tend to be quite safe. Also because they can cause false tripping of the RCD even though they are not faulty.)


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## Smurf1976 (26 October 2005)

money tree said:
			
		

> interesting smurf
> 
> I have asked Energex a few times about running A/C on tariff 33 and always receive a stern "NO". They argue that cheaper electricity will encourage more people to crank up the A/C during a heatwave, leading to brownouts. But our electrical infrastructure up here is as bad as it gets, so other states may be more relaxed.



Interesting position but if that's their approach then unfortunately you're stuck with it. I suspect it would have something to do with the regulatory process about their capital investments. If they push up the peak demand then they are allowed to pass through higher costs to consumers so could actually be making a profit from it. Perverse but possibly true. Either that or they are pursuing an outright conservation policy of cutting use and therefore see higher prices as an advantage.

Technically it would be an electricity utility's dream come true to get big power guzzlers like A/C on a remote switched tariff. So their thinking is most likely financially motivated.


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## Julia (26 October 2005)

Smurf & Moneytree,

Thank you both for your help.

I was offered the option of running the air conditioners on Tariff 33 as well as the pool, but have rejected this as power supply on that tariff is supposedly unavailable between 5 pm and 9pm which is a time when I could want to use it.  I rarely use the aircon anyway - just occasionally overnights in summer, but probably no more than 10 nights a year.

Will check in the daylight tomorrow but think there is already an RCD installed.
I know that if I have two many appliances which are connected to the one circuit breaker on at the same time, just those appliances lose power which can be immediately restarted by switching back the switch on the circuit breaker in the power board.  Does that make sense?

So, I have gathered from your replies that $400 is in fact not unreasonable and in fact cheap if a new meter box is required (or alternatively an auxiliary one installed for just the pool), but about double appropriate cost if new meter box is not required and additional meter and ripple control can be added to existing switchboard?

Thanks again for the info and advice.

All the best
Julia


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## It's Snake Pliskin (27 October 2005)

You could dollar cost average your quotes and give them all some work to do based on an average price.


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## Julia (27 October 2005)

So far I've had one written quote ($800) and two phone estimates:  one for 
under $100 and the other for about $400!!!

Suppose the obvious thing to do is to get the two phone quoters to come out and look at the situation and give firm quote from there?

The $800 included such things as special additional timer device because the existing timer won't work its usual 24 hour cycle when the power supply is cut off for four hours per day.  This I'm told will be approx another $160, plus charge for installation.   Etc, etc, etc.......

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (28 October 2005)

It sounds like you are seriously being messed around for what ought to be a simple job.

I suggest that you ask them to guarantee, in writing, that:

1. The installation will function as intended. That is with the pool equipment on the extended hours off-peak and hot water remaining on night only off-peak and a timer to switch the pool equipment on and off. Make sure they understand that you do NOT want the pool equipment to run all the time that the off-peak supply is on and require a timer.

2. That the installation will comply with AS3000 (pronounced A. S. Three Thousand). Strictly speaking it's actually AS/NZS3000 (Aus / NZ) but the accepted industry terminology is AS3000.

AS3000 is effectively the law when it comes to electrical wiring work. This is also known as the "Wiring Rules". It is a legal requirement for any electrical installation to comply with this unless the electricity supplier or regulatory authority specifically requires or approves a variation.

3. Inform them that you will be getting 3 quotes. Do not state who the other quotes are from. If any quote seems unreasonable, ask for an explanation of the work to be done AND WHY.

As for the timer, I would be asking for an explanation of what is planned and why. For long term reliability any timer or other switching device used with  motors should have heavy duty contacts. Most hard wired timers will already have separate connections for the power supply to the timer itself (on 24 hours) and the power for the load being switched by the timer (connected to off-peak in your case). A plug in timer would not be suitable.

If you get a wide difference between quotes then I would be inclined to approach one in the middle and get a written guarantee on points 1+2.


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## visual (28 October 2005)

Hi All,
I realise that this is not about electrical problems,but I`m wondering if this has happened to anyone else.
About 7 years ago I bought a Maytag washing machine,supposedly so intelligent that it did`nt need a filter,you guessed it lint everywhere also even in the highest cycle clothes could be squessed by hand,had it changed twice finally got money back.Went to a more reliable retailer,seeing that filters were no longer being included as a necessity was adviced to go for a front loader,this time a Bendix highly recommended by the salesman,Yes I Know!!!!!!!!!!!changed twice,child lock stopped working after short time,noise equalled a boeing taking off,ripped shirts,and walked all over the washroom.Eventually the salesman organised a technician to come to my house in his presence,apparently on top of all that motor was banging on front panel and already dinted panel,tells me he hadn`t sold one of these in two years,yet highly recommended it to me,when I reminded him of it he just looked at me as if I wasnt there.Seeing that I needed a washing machine,and they were refusing my money back I opted for a Asko washing machine ,result two service calls ,and no fix to the noise and poor wash.Seeing that this was now my fifth machine I just put up with it ,guess what machine is now dead needs a new motor.These are all good reputable brands so what exactly is going on I ask,has the washing machine now become a disposable item as well.Can anyone beat that.Oh by the way at every turn I`ve been blamed for washing the wrong clothes !using the wrong soap(only use soap for front loaders)having the wrong type of water!putting the clothes in the wrong way!and the reputable retailer Harvey Norman of course.Final cost of machine 1600 dollars


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## Smurf1976 (28 October 2005)

visual said:
			
		

> Oh by the way at every turn I`ve been blamed for washing the wrong clothes !using the wrong soap(only use soap for front loaders)having the wrong type of water!putting the clothes in the wrong way!and the reputable retailer Harvey Norman of course.Final cost of machine 1600 dollars



None of these things are legitimate explanations for failure of the washing machine. Excuses...


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## Happy (28 October 2005)

Visual,

It almost sounds that you can have a washing machine but should not use it.


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## visual (28 October 2005)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> None of these things are legitimate explanations for failure of the washing machine. Excuses...




That's right, but apparently thats the name of the game, you are meant to get so disillusioned that in the end you give up.
However seeing that all these brands are priced above the 1000 dollars I certainly didnt and wont. But I would be interested if anyone else has had the same experience.


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## Milk Man (28 October 2005)

Youre gonna hate me.  
Bought a simpson 2 year ago for $600 and its a 6.5kg. Does get lint here and there but it goes like a dream and has a dial (not those new fangled screen doovers) so even I (22yr old male!) can work it no probs. If you can get one with a kirby motor I reckon that would be the pick. We have a fridge about 30yrs old and it still chills like brand new; frame will rust away to nothing before kirby motor wears out.
Good luck.


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## visual (8 November 2005)

Milk man,
Asko was just here looking at my washing machine,guess what! motor needs replacing,seals have been leaking for a while,hence the motor burning out and the timing module also gone!apparently they will be in touch to work out a compromise.The only compromise I will accept is the machine fixed under warranty,or else I will go out buy a lemon tree and stick the machine under it.Seeing that this is my fifth machine in seven years I should have a nice collection in my front garden in no time.


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## Happy (8 November 2005)

Visual,
Are you sure you hook it up to 240 Volts? (Only kidding  )


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## visual (8 November 2005)

Happy,
dont make fun of me
those morons at Harvey Norman already had a field day trying to tell me that not only I could be crazy(or am crazy)but maybe my house didnt suit their washing machine!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I see myself as a bit of a crusader for washing machine consumersLOL 
They take my money I want something in return a washing machine I can use for at least 10 years after all I had no problems operating my simpson for 13 years with absolutely no problems.


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## Knobby22 (8 November 2005)

Is it a digital model?
If so, you may have something in your house or street that is creating thumps (surges). Do you live near a factory or major substation?

I would install a surge divertor onto your switchboad.


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## Smurf1976 (8 November 2005)

Ok, let's see if we can sort this out.

I'll have some more questions but for now, what were the faults with each of the washing machines (or what were the symptoms if you don't know what the actual fault was)?

Are the washing machines in question top loading or front loading? 

Have they all been the same make and model or are different brands involved?

Once I know the answers to the above I'll have a couple of other questions to ask.


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## visual (8 November 2005)

smurf
3 brands 
both types
top loaders
excessive vibrations, linting, even on highest cycle things could be squeezed by hand.
front loaders, excessive vibrations,dont rinse properly even with minimal soap
safety features broke down after short time, shredding of clothes,
current motor burned out, mould in the drum, timing module dead, seals leaked hence motor burning out, leaked from top, front of machine rusted.


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## Julia (8 November 2005)

Just to divert back to my original question - no disrespect to problems with washing machines which sound ghastly - I eventually got three written quotes for changing pool equipment to Tariff 33.  Two were around $400 and one was $800!!!

Once again demonstrates the need to get several quotes.

Is it relevant that the two at about $400 were from older (?more experienced) chaps and the $800 one from someone much younger?

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (8 November 2005)

Julia said:
			
		

> Just to divert back to my original question - no disrespect to problems with washing machines which sound ghastly - I eventually got three written quotes for changing pool equipment to Tariff 33.  Two were around $400 and one was $800!!!
> 
> Once again demonstrates the need to get several quotes.
> 
> ...



Not having seen the specific switchboard it's hard to be certain but the $400 doesn't sound unreasonable and you ought to recover that in lower power bills in a reasonable period of time. This is especially so because the Queensland Government is about to change the charging method for the continuous supply (non off-peak) tariff which will have the effect of increasing costs for larger users. So off-peak makes a lot of sense.

As for the experience bit, the older ones are probably more conscious of the fact that you'll probably need an electrician for something at some point in the future so they hope to get future business by charging reasonably and maintaining a decent reputation. A lot of work in the electrical trades comes about through word of mouth recommendations too and if they have been around a while then they would be very aware of this. The younger one probably isn't thinking as long term.


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## Smurf1976 (9 November 2005)

visual said:
			
		

> smurf
> 3 brands
> both types
> top loaders
> ...



OK. A few questions... (appologies if you have already worked through these but I need to know the answers to try and work out what's going on here.)

1. I assume that you are connected to grid electricity (as opposed to generating your own in a remote area)?

2. Is the water from a town mains supply? If not, where is the water supplied from? (Yes this IS relevant but not for the reasons salespeople will tell you.)

3. Is the floor in the laundry stable and IS IT LEVEL?

4. What water temperature have you been using for the wash cycle?  

5. What sort of hot water heater does the house have? (Or have the machines been connected to cold water only?) Does it have a tank or is it a continuous flow (instantaneous) system? What energy source(s) heat the water - gas, electricity, wood, solar etc? Yes this question is relevant!

6. The timer module which failed. Was that an electonic one or was it electromechanical (dial that turns)?


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## visual (9 November 2005)

smurf,
floor is level,
timing module is dial,
mainly wash in cold water except under instructions from them when i did numerous hot washes to try and flush out the mould
connected to cold water machine heats up water,
and by the way as of this morning Asko still havent contacted me for the compromise so i`m assuming that seeing that the fault cant be pinned on me they are now going to ignore me!
grid electricity


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## money tree (9 November 2005)

get hold of a multimeter and check for undervoltage or overvoltage. either of these can cause parts to wear out fast. 240v is normal but if you had less than 230 or more than 250 be worried.

overvoltage is something only energex can fix.

undervoltage may be something originating at your pole (ie energex), or it could be due to the voltage drop from a long run of cable. Is it a long way from the laundry to the meterbox?

I would also suggest doing an 'on-load' volt test to see if the volt drop occurs when you use a lot of current.

if you cant get hold of a multimeter then get a sparky out to test.

I once got called out to a house that had a lot of globes 'exploding'. Did a test and found 255v. energex fixed it in the end.


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## Smurf1976 (9 November 2005)

visual said:
			
		

> smurf,
> floor is level,
> timing module is dial,
> mainly wash in cold water except under instructions from them when i did numerous hot washes to try and flush out the mould
> ...



Regarding the mould, rust and the timer failing I am wondering if your laundry is excessively humid? Where are you located - is it a high humidity region? Also, is the area close to the sea and/or subject to significant air pollution / dust? Is there a tumble dryer in the laundry and if so, is this externally vented or does it discharge hot air into the room? 

Rinsing. I assume that you are using detergent and not old-fashioned soap flakes and that the detergent is one recommended for front loaders? Also, is the water supply of good quality (OK to drink straight from the tap)? 

Depending on the actual machine and its operation, rinsing problems can be caused by lack of adequate water pressure and/or flow. Have you checked that the stop tap to the house is fully open and likewise is the tap in the laundry turned on fully? Turning the tap down to avoid water hammer is generally NOT a good idea and will cause rinsing problems unless you are sure that the machine doesn't use a spray rinse as part of the cycle. Get a proper anti-hammer device instead if water hammer is a big problem.

Ragarding the motor, damaged clothes etc. we need to check the voltage. Assuming that you don't have a proper meter to check with, we can do a reasonable test using an electric kettle. First though I need to know what the element rating of your kettle is and how much water it holds. The element rating should be stamped on the bottom and will say something like "240V 2400W" or "230V 2200W". Using a measured quantity of water that has been stored in the fridge (so we know roughly what temperature it is to start with) just time how long it takes to boil (actually boiling, not just hot). Post the results including power rating (both V and W that it says on the kettle base), quantity of water boiled and how long it took and I'll work out if the voltage is reasonable. Boil as much water as the kettle holds and try to be as accurate as possible with the timing.

I assume that you are not having unusual problems with other appliances?


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## visual (9 November 2005)

Guys,thanks for your feed back,
no to all your questions,
soap ,that for front loaders,
problems with other appliances ,no

Have had all components measured with multimeter,all measure correctly.

water tested by citywest(who found being called out amusing,apparently they get lots of these calls for exactly the reason I called them out for)

In the end my personal opinion is that these faults occur because of poor design and cheap manufacturing.

Since these problems raised it`s ugly head again ,i have once again being trawling the internet you would be amazed at how many people experience 
what i`m exsperiencing,so the only conclusion i can come up with is shoddy products.

And smurf regarding your questions surely had my problems being taken seriously by the manufacturer by now the problem would`ve being solved,instead all i`ve experienced is stonewalling and plain bad service.


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## money tree (9 November 2005)

mahahahaha

timing how long it takes to boil....

what you smokin smurf?

there are heaps of variables that could affect the result.

plastic kettle or metal? 

how long since last boil?

is the thermostat accurate to 100 degrees? (+/- 10% expected)

is the water measurement accurate?

room temperature?

the input water temperature? (fridge could be 2 - 8 degrees)

is the element accurate to 2400w? (+/- 10% expected)


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## Smurf1976 (9 November 2005)

visual said:
			
		

> In the end my personal opinion is that these faults occur because of poor design and cheap manufacturing.
> 
> Since these problems raised it`s ugly head again ,i have once again being trawling the internet you would be amazed at how many people experience
> what i`m exsperiencing,so the only conclusion i can come up with is shoddy products.
> ...



I think you've got a dud machine by the sounds of it. The wonders of globalisation and the race to the bottom with both price and quality.

And for those who heard about the Crown Casino fire. Yep! Yet another TV fire... How totally unsurprising.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 November 2005)

money tree said:
			
		

> mahahahaha
> 
> timing how long it takes to boil....
> 
> ...



1. Plastic versus metal. Assuming the kettle is full as I stated the thermal mass of the kettle itself is relatively minor.

2. How long since last boil. As I said, you start with cold water from the fridge so that's not an issue. Of course you empty all the water from the kettle before filling it and allow it to cool to room temperature.

3. Thermostat. I assume that you know how kettle thermostats work? With most designs unless the water boils and produces steam it will not switch off so there's no real risk of switching off at less than 100 degrees and you can't heat the water above 100 anyway otherwise it is a vapour and won't stay in the kettle. Not a relevant point.

4. Water measurement. You use a measuring jug to get an accurate reading. The measuring jug might be wrong but then so could any multimeter. Most homes have a reasonably accurate measuring jug in the kitchen. 

5. Room temperature. Assuming that the kettle boils fairly quickly there won't be much heat loss so it will only have a minor effect at the likely range of room temperatures. I was assuming it wouldn't be minus 10 degrees etc.

6. Input water temperature. If the fridge is above 5 degrees the milk will be going off in practice so that should be fairly obvious. The error in the voltage measurement would be about 2% on account of fridge temperature variation between just above zero and 5 degrees. 

7. Element. In practice the tolerance of mass produced water heating elements isn't that large. I've measured quite a few for various reasons and generally found them to be pretty close. Space heaters are another matter...

Overall the result ought to be accurate enough for this purpose. Any recent appliance should operate quite nicely on a 230 Volt supply which if you assume maximum voltage drops in the distrbution network, consumers mains and final sub-circuit means it can go as low as 195V. On the other hand anything up to 253V is perfectly acceptable as I'm sure you are aware. In fact some electricity distributors intentionally send out 253V or even 254V from distribution transformers. If you live next to one then that's what you'll get.

Now, if the kettle is rated at 240V 2400W then at 253V it ought to raise 2 litres of water from 4 degrees to 100 degrees in 5 minutes exactly. At 240V it ought to take 5 mins 33 sec. At 230V it should take 6 mins 3 sec. At 195V it should take 8 minutes 25 sec. 

Since no problems with light bulbs etc. were mentioned it strongly suggests that if there were any problem with voltage then it would be under voltage rather than over voltage. Now, if the kettle took more than 5 but less than 7 minutes to boil then allowing for the thermal mass of the kettle itself, heat loss to the room etc that would suggest that the voltage is somewhere in the order of 220-250V and at this level any recently built appliance shouldn't be experiencing problems. Much longer or any less and some investigation would be warranted.

I contend that my imporvised method is sufficiently accurate for the purpose given that I had assumed a more accurate method of measurement was not readily available. Obviously it's not perfect but it's at least as accurate as the speedo in you car and yet that is used for law enforcement.  

I'll conduct the experiment myself and post the results for both the kettle and measured voltage.


----------



## visual (9 November 2005)

ok,
I`ll keep you posted on end result


----------



## money tree (9 November 2005)

we use to have a plastic kettle. when it corroded, we bought a metal kettle with element underneath. we noticed the kettle was taking a lot longer to boil so I checked the elements, both were 2400w. I put it down to the fact the metal kettle absorbed a lot more ambient heat. Plus, the fact that the element was not in direct contact with the water meant that the element had to first heat the kettle.


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## Kauri (9 November 2005)

i have never had any trouble with my kettle ..         (see avatar)


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## Smurf1976 (9 November 2005)

money tree said:
			
		

> we use to have a plastic kettle. when it corroded, we bought a metal kettle with element underneath. we noticed the kettle was taking a lot longer to boil so I checked the elements, both were 2400w. I put it down to the fact the metal kettle absorbed a lot more ambient heat. Plus, the fact that the element was not in direct contact with the water meant that the element had to first heat the kettle.



Fair point about the element underneath the kettle taking longer to heat the water. I hadn't thought about that type until you mentioned it.  I was assuming that the kettle would have an immersion element. Results won't be accurate if it's underneath.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 November 2005)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> I contend that my imporvised method is sufficiently accurate for the purpose given that I had assumed a more accurate method of measurement was not readily available. Obviously it's not perfect but it's at least as accurate as the speedo in you car and yet that is used for law enforcement.
> 
> I'll conduct the experiment myself and post the results for both the kettle and measured voltage.



Done the test, results as follows.

Measured voltage (under load) 231.7 varied between 231.5 and 231.8 during test.

Boiled 1430mL in a plastic kettle with element rating 240V 2400W. The water was chilled in the fridge for about 2 hours and the kettle was at room temperature (23 degrees according to the thermometer). It took exactly 4 minutes 30 seconds from switch on to boil (switch off).

Doing the sums on that the voltage according to the kettle method is 224.8V versus 231.7 according to measurement. An accuracy of about 97% which is good enough for the purpose of determining if the voltage is sufficiently far from where it ought to be to cause appliance failure. 

Due to the thermal mass of the kettle, heat losses and resistance of the power cord the voltage calculated using the kettle method ought to be a little less than the actual voltage. This is in line with the results of the test.

Not perfect but near enough.


----------



## Hanrahan (10 November 2005)

I bought a Kleenmaid front loader abt 5yrs ago and while I'm happy with it's general operation the vibration is a big problem.

I suspect it is the vibration which breaks the door safety switches and I must be on my fifth by now. The service agent is a school mate of mine and tells me that it is made in one of the Central European Slovac countries and re-badged. Could be your Maytag and my Kleenmaid are from the same factory.

The last time this switch failed it was super expensive for me. I have an old home which desperately needs a new switchboard but instead of (the door switch) going open and simply not working it must have shorted. It didn't just blow the fuse though, it caused problems on the neutral link thus a "brown out" effect which blew the control boards on both split system air cons, the power supply on my new eMac, the monitor on my old PC, three radios, two surge protection power boards and some hi fi equipment.

Ergon was good. They came out with their lift-truck and two linies, replaced pole fuses and the feeder connectors before identifying my faulty board. For this I got a bill of less than $70. Good value, I thought. I found a contractor to come out at short notice who fixed things up (and agreed that I need a new power board) but could not get continuity to earth. We finally found the earth wire which should have been connected to the water pipe swinging in the breeze. Possibly disconnected 10yrs ago when I had the gal pipe replaced with copper. I asked the sparkie NOT to go into detail on just how dangerous that washer was on that morning.

The lesson is *Keep your switch board in good repair. * It's odd but we go out of our way to do safety checks on our cars but neglect the household power.


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## visual (10 November 2005)

Hanrahan,
could be,however if the technician wasnt you friend would you have held this people accountable? such as asking for a refund or replacement.
And by the way warranty service is done by the same people who service kleenmaid,so definetely you may have a point there.


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## Bargain Hunter (10 November 2005)

*Smurf & James Watt*

Smurf,

Totally private non-related question.  Did you used to work for James Watt at Revesby.

Did my time there back in the early 80's.   

Regards

Andrew


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## Smurf1976 (10 November 2005)

*Re: Smurf & James Watt*



			
				Bargain Hunter said:
			
		

> Smurf,
> 
> Totally private non-related question.  Did you used to work for James Watt at Revesby.
> 
> ...



Nope.    Bit too young at the time.


----------



## money tree (11 November 2005)

crikey, how many sparkies do we have here?

Im an EC by the way


----------



## Milk Man (11 November 2005)

money tree said:
			
		

> crikey, how many sparkies do we have here?
> 
> Im an EC by the way




I make electric fences does that count?


----------



## Happy (11 November 2005)

Definitely, if they are 240 Volt (or should I say between 230 and 250 ?).


----------



## visual (17 November 2005)

Update on the Asko washing machine,
Asko informs me that the motor has been replaced,the timing module also,thermostat,and a few other things .Althought all the big things they will replace for free out of the goodness of their hearts.They want me to bear some of the cost,some 200 hundred dollars.I refused to pay, so out come all the parts!
Can I remind you all dear forum readers this is my fifth washing machine in six yrs,this particular machine is approx.4 and a half yrs.old .Apparently I have a good case for the tribunal a place I`ve been avoiding because of the time it takes and so on. :swear: so off to the tribunal we go.


----------



## Yippyio (17 November 2005)

Hanrahan said:
			
		

> I bought a Kleenmaid front loader abt 5yrs ago and while I'm happy with it's general operation the vibration is a big problem.
> 
> I suspect it is the vibration which breaks the door safety switches and I must be on my fifth by now. The service agent is a school mate of mine and tells me that it is made in one of the Central European Slovac countries and re-badged. Could be your Maytag and my Kleenmaid are from the same factory.
> 
> ...




What did the new power board cost ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 November 2005)

visual said:
			
		

> Can I remind you all dear forum readers this is my fifth washing machine in six yrs,this particular machine is approx.4 and a half yrs.old .Apparently I have a good case for the tribunal a place I`ve been avoiding because of the time it takes and so on. :swear: so off to the tribunal we go.



6 years, 5 machines. But this one has lasted the past 4.5 years so that means you went through 4 machines in about 18 months???

Regarding the tribunal, which tribunal are we talking about? Small Claims?


----------



## visual (17 November 2005)

yep,and yep to the other question,but don`t get the idea that it was easy they actually drove me to distraction,and you know what the sales guy at Harvey Norman was still at it again,telling me that it was only a washing machine.ye and 1600 dollars was meant to get me something that i could use.

This from the same guy who sold me the Bendix ,a machine that according to him he hadnt sold to anyone else in two years!

Obviously so me coming moron.
according to consumer affairs I actually have a good case
for compensation
however what I really would like to achieve is these morons actually manufacturing machine that at least do what they are meant to do.


----------



## visual (22 November 2005)

Hi posters,
washing machine back home!
fixed at no cost ,now lets see how long that lasts.......  
Asko said motor needed replacing timing module ect...... but on receipt only two little thingies are shown, not the big items. Wonder why. Oh who cares... end of story.


----------



## visual (22 November 2005)

oh crap,curse Harvey Norman ,curse ASKO ,washing machine lasted 1 wash,second wash flooded the wash room,didnt do that before so hooray for Asko they are obviously great technicians.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 November 2005)

This is getting ridiculous.

What was the technician's name? Frank Spencer?  :  :   

(Oh how I pity anyone who actually has that name...)


----------



## visual (25 November 2005)

smurf,
guess what,took away w/m gave a loan one,
have a guess Smurf what happened next!
IT DID`NT WORK HAHAHAHAHA  
out they come again fix it,temporarily
so now we wait with abated breath
so would you believe this story if it was in book form.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 November 2005)

This has gone WAY beyond what's reasonable. All I can say is that I hope you have a very good sense of humor and can see the funny side of the loan machine not working. 

It's a real saga with your washing machine. I thought my lawnmower problems were bad enough but they are nothing compared to your washing machine.

Any chance that you can just get some money out of them any buy a different brand of washing machine? Would be a lot easier.

Personally, I decided long ago to fix faulty things myself even if they're under warranty and supposed to go to some approved service agent. I might have to pay for parts but at least I know the job's done properly.

Still not happy with my lawnmower though, it's seems to be getting worse at an alarming rate and it's only 2 years old. 2 bolts fell out today when moving the lawn and this caused the fuel tank to come off with the engine still running and had petrol squirting out all over the place. Other main problem is the plastic catcher which got a hole in it the first time I used it. Hit a gum nut and it went straight through the plastic and subsequent leaf and gum nut strikes have blown the back out so I had to do some repairs with a nice 15mm thick layer of bitumen. Makes it heavy but it's strong. Also uses a lot of fuel. The old mower did the front and back on about 1.25L of petrol (2-stroke). This one, well I used about 3 litres to mow the same area today so it's using a lot more.

Still nothing wrong with the mower compared to your washing machine though.


----------



## visual (25 November 2005)

Smurf,
unfortunately this has gone behind sense of humor,i think i`m close to a nervous break down.Just the idea of buying a new w/m actually stresses me out.In fact the last 3 days because of stress i have paid a heavy price .
But the dismissive attidute continues,so its no accident ,i think that definitely i was supposed to give up a long time ago.
As for fixing things ourselves ,unfortunately these have not been things that my husband couldve fixed himself.The things that he could he did,like the top of the machine ,it was leaking and he had to seal the top ,the timing module he changed a few components,he changed the brushes,however the motor was behind his capability so thats why,also the drum thats something he couldnt do.Anyway lets see what happens...
And my commiserations on your lawnmower


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## Julia (25 November 2005)

Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> This has gone WAY beyond what's reasonable. All I can say is that I hope you have a very good sense of humor and can see the funny side of the loan machine not working.
> 
> It's a real saga with your washing machine. I thought my lawnmower problems were bad enough but they are nothing compared to your washing machine.
> 
> ...




If you don't have a huge amount of lawn, have you considered an electric lawnmower?  I've used one for many years.  They are cheap, light to use and do a good job.  Even with a larger lawn, attaching an extension cord will work.
I've had two over nearly 20 years and neither needed anything done to them other than remoulding of the clips on the catcher.

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (25 November 2005)

I do hope that I haven't contributed to your stress Visual. I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit with the Frank Spencer comment.   

As for stress, avoid it as far as possible because it shortens your life. That's easy to say I know but it's not worth losing a few years off your life because of a dud washing machine.

I say that as someone who was lying on the front lawn laughing at the lawn mower this afternoon. Sure, I've got a problem because every damn screw, bolt and nut in the thing seems to be coming loose. But there's no point getting stressed so I just try and see the funny side of it. Crawling around on the front lawn looking for bits that have come off must look rather funny to passing traffic...

Not that I would be overly good at seeing the funny side in your case. It's gone way beyond a joke, but if you've already lost once with a washing machine then don't lose a second time with stress.


----------



## visual (26 November 2005)

oh God no!
I thought the actual Frank Spencer joke was funny,because that particular technician was actually english.He kept calling me dear.  

And believe me i know that stressing over a w/m is dumb but its just the ease with which they practice that bloody way of looking at you as if to say ,see theres  nothing wrong with the machine its you.
We actually had to show him the machine working ,which we had taped so we could send it to Asko in a file.Because he again didnt have enough time to listen and see the damn thing in action.


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## Julia (18 December 2005)

My 13 year old F & P washing machine has died.  In buying a new one, I'm anxious to avoid the sort of catastrophic drama Visual has gone through.
By the way, what's the current state of the drama, Visual?

I'd be really appreciative if forum members could say what brand of washing machine they have, how old it is, whether they would buy the same brand again, and what's positive or negative about it.  And also whether you prefer the computerised control panels (more to go wrong?) or the dial-up style.

Many thanks.

Julia


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## Julia (18 December 2005)

Visual:
I've just been looking round the internet trying to find more info on washing machines, and came across a report on
www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/washing-machine - reviews
which said that a class action on Maytag had produced an admission of the problems by the company and compensation was paid.  Don't know whether you are aware of this?
Interestingly, when I asked one of my neighbours what brand he had, he said Hoover but if he could afford to buy one he'd get Maytag "because they had a reputation of being virtually indestructible and functioned perfectly for much longer than any other brand"!!!

Julia


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## GreatPig (18 December 2005)

Julia,



			
				Julia said:
			
		

> I'd be really appreciative if forum members could say what brand of washing machine they have, how old it is, whether they would buy the same brand again, and what's positive or negative about it.  And also whether you prefer the computerised control panels (more to go wrong?) or the dial-up style.



Probably not much help, but I currently use an old heavy-duty Simpson and used to use a similar Whirlpool before that. In both cases they were old style, big, solid (nearly all metal), and reliable. Not at all water efficient, but with three kids at least we can get the washing done in reasonable time.

As for computerised control panels, I'd be wary of them myself. A friend used to have a dishwasher with one of those and apparently it was very unreliable. I think he said it got water or steam in it and was expensive to get fixed.

Perhaps spend a few dollars and buy the Choice report.

Cheers,
GP


----------



## visual (18 December 2005)

Julia,
still no word on the Asko,presumably they are still testing !
I have the loan machine which is working reasonably well.
Don`t buy the maytag,stay away from bendix,or Asko
Recently I had to buy a part for my fridge,the seal ,thank god,and the lady that I spoke with started telling me about all the complaints that they get re-new whitegoods,she advised  me  never spend more than hundred dollars per year.So say you have to buy a new washing machine dont spend more than 6oo hundred dollars because when you break it up per year thats all you should really exspect with the new stuff.She advised the Hoover or Simpson 
apparently the simpson is still made in Australia so parts and service are reasonable.should you need further advice I`ll keep my eye out on this forum.
By the way the lady giving this advice sells only spare parts hence all the complaints ,people get very annoyed about having to pay hundreds of dollars for spare parts for white goods that are barely out of warranty.She volunteered all this information because I asked if the seal did`nt stop the noise the fridge was making ,what else could it be!
She was on the phone for a good 20 minutes ,can you imagine how many people must complain!
And those bastards tried to tell me that I was the only one having these type of problems with my w/m.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 December 2005)

Julia said:
			
		

> My 13 year old F & P washing machine has died.  In buying a new one, I'm anxious to avoid the sort of catastrophic drama Visual has gone through.
> By the way, what's the current state of the drama, Visual?
> 
> I'd be really appreciative if forum members could say what brand of washing machine they have, how old it is, whether they would buy the same brand again, and what's positive or negative about it.  And also whether you prefer the computerised control panels (more to go wrong?) or the dial-up style.
> ...



I'll take a guess that your F&P machine developed a range of irritating faults where it essentially stopped dead and/or locked up the control panel during operation and either it died altogether or you just got sick of having to reset the machine half way through a load of washing. That's how they usually die anyway.

As for what I would buy, golden rule is don't spend too much because these days any washing machine is a bit of a gamble. 

I haven't heard of too many serious problems with the cheaper front loaders sold (at various times) under various different brands by what is now Electrolux. Westinghouse, Simpson and so on. BUT I don't spend my days fixing washing machines so it's possible that there are problems with these and that I just haven't heard about them.

Top loading Simpson machines are notorious for pump failures and general trouble. Hoover machines have long been known for inadequate spin performance which leaves the clothes rather wet although this may not be an issue depending on where you live. Poor spin drying wastes a lot of power if you have to use a tumble dryer though since it takes far longer to dry than if it had spun better.

F&P machines as I said the electronics fail with all sorts of annoying symptoms which can start irritatingly early and carry on for 5+ years before it finally dies.

Not sure about the rest but in general keep it simple in my opinion. A dial control is, in practice, less likely to fail than electronic IMO although in theory the reverse is true.


----------



## Knobby22 (19 December 2005)

I've got an LG machine.
All electronic, no centre agitator. Inexpensive.
More compact. I'm pretty happy with it.


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## Julia (19 December 2005)

Thanks for responses.

Smurf:  you are quite correct with your suggestion of what has happened.
The serviceperson said that because it was 13 years old he didn't have the "key" to the computerised electronics and thus had no idea how to adjust it.  This was about four months ago.  He did what appeared random prodding at most of the buttons, pronounced it unfixable, charged me many dollars, and left.  The machine then did function normally until the last week when it has been stopping mid-cycle again and beeping its unhappiness loudly.
My attempts to replicate the results of the serviceman's prodding of buttons have produced no result.  So, as you suggest, I can't stand it and will get a new one rather than stuff about restarting the cycle etc.

I'm interested in what you say about Simpson:  people I've spoken to have been happy with it - one person has one 16 years old and no faults at all.  And GP's seems to be OK.

Knobby:  I've looked at LG before but was put off by the salesman (who was probably getting a percentage from some other manufacturer) and remembering comments when the brand first came out that it was "cheap and nasty".  That was some time ago and their reputation seems to be different now.  Will have another look.

With thanks

Julia


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## visual (19 December 2005)

Julia, would anyone have any electronics knowledge in your social circle?
Because if the the fault is with the electronics it probably just needs a few components changed.(I`m assuming key means program,which means a chip)
Also have you considered the local repairer man,he would be cheaper to call out anyway and might have a spare chip from another machine,assuming that it would be a component

Just the idea of anyone buying a w/m sends a shiver down my spine.You however might be lucky,heres hoping.


----------



## bvbfan (19 December 2005)

LG is the old Goldstar brand

Amazing what some marketing can do to transform an image


----------



## Julia (19 December 2005)

visual said:
			
		

> Julia, would anyone have any electronics knowledge in your social circle?
> Because if the the fault is with the electronics it probably just needs a few components changed.(I`m assuming key means program,which means a chip)
> Also have you considered the local repairer man,he would be cheaper to call out anyway and might have a spare chip from another machine,assuming that it would be a component
> 
> Just the idea of anyone buying a w/m sends a shiver down my spine.You however might be lucky,heres hoping.




Hi Visual:

Problem is that the repairman (so called) didn't know he had done anything useful!  So calling him to repeat his apparent temporary cure would probably not achieve much.

I just hate it when I'm thinking I need to do
 some washing but am scared to approach the washing machine in case I come home and find it beeping at me and the clothes lying sopping , at which stage, after a few entirely unproductive curses and similarly unproductive stabs at various buttons, I have to haul it into the tub, wring by hand (less than effective) and then put on the clothesline still dripping.

So today, after phoning all the local repair firms to find out what they repair least, and then reading Choice reports at the library, I went to buy a new one, the choice having come down to F&P or Simpson within the price I was prepared to pay (given that I'm told not to expect any machine to last longer than 8 years), and also given I didn't want a front loader.  Ended up with the damn F&P again, based on its smaller external dimensions for small laundry, and much better spin action resulting in drier clothes.  Can only hope it will be OK.

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice - much appreciated.

Julia


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## visual (19 December 2005)

Julia,
I wish you all the luck in the world,be aware though that the faster the machine spins the more the clothes wear,for example towels will soon be threadbare due to the fast spin,so my advice is don`t keep it on the highest spin unless absolutely necessary.I`ve found that generally keeping the machine on 800 rpm gives you a fairly good spin good choice staying away from the front loader.
Also does the f&p have a filter? 
Anyway merry Christmas and hope the new year is fruitful for you and your family.


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## Smurf1976 (20 December 2005)

I'll be looking into the F&P control problem when I get time to see if it's fixable at reasonable cost.

Unfortunately it won't be until February / March next year as all my time now is taken up with work, nightclubs (not going to them but trying to resolve the residents versus clubs issue in a sensible way) and keeping my 13,300 Christmas lights running. Oh, and sleeping if I get the time...  : And then there's the forex trading and I was trying to get fit and do lots of exercise until the clubs issue blew up and cut my sleeping time in half...   

I do have some suspicions as to what the F&P problem is but will have to do some proper electronics work to prove it. I'll post details once I've sorted it out if I find an easy solution. I have a F&P machine that's slowly dying...


----------



## Julia (20 December 2005)

Visual 

Thank you  And Christmas wishes to you and yours also.  I sincerely hope 2006 brings you a year of trouble free washing machine - you will be so grateful!  Having to replace towels a bit more often (though they seem to last well) is for me a small price to pay for quickly dried washing.  It's a good point though.

Smurf:

One salesperson told me yesterday that a new control panel could be purchased for about $150 including labour if it fails again on this machine.
Does that sound right to you?  If so, and if the failure happened at about five or six years of age, then it would seem a reasonable thing to do.

Your lights sound beautiful.  Get the warring parties in the nightclub dispute to come and look at them instead of getting cross with one another.

Julia


----------



## money tree (20 December 2005)

interesting bvb

heres another one:

Panasonic was a merger between Transonic and Panavision.........Pana....sonic


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 December 2005)

Julia said:
			
		

> One salesperson told me yesterday that a new control panel could be purchased for about $150 including labour if it fails again on this machine.
> Does that sound right to you?  If so, and if the failure happened at about five or six years of age, then it would seem a reasonable thing to do.



Sounds about right in terms of the cost HOWEVER what they're doing is almost certainly replacing the entire circuit board which controls the machine. 

This is a bit like replacing the engine in a car because of some simple problem such as one spark plug failing which should only cost a few $ to fix. Replacing the entire engine gets the car going but it's a very expensive way to do it.

What I intend to do is find out what exactly goes wrong with the electronics and replace only the failed components. With a bit of luck this will be a $5 fix for anyone with a soldering iron (and most people would know someone) and a screwdriver. I'll post results in a couple of months hopefully.


----------



## visual (9 March 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Julia,
> still no word on the Asko,presumably they are still testing !




Just an update, machine picked up by asko sometime in dec 2005 still not back,
Asko now advising harvey norman not to talk to me anymore because they are handling it.Otherwise they`ll be liable, :swear: still struggling with loan machine, too small. Asko now means piece of crap as far as i`m concerned and Harvey Norman is  :swear:


----------



## Julia (9 March 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Just an update, machine picked up by asko sometime in dec 2005 still not back,
> Asko now advising harvey norman not to talk to me anymore because they are handling it.Otherwise they`ll be liable, :swear: still struggling with loan machine, too small. Asko now means piece of crap as far as i`m concerned and Harvey Norman is  :swear:




Visual:

That's just appalling.  Have you contacted Fair Trading to see if you have any recourse towards a refund so you can simply start again with what would hopefully be a better brand?  I'm very happy with my new F&P.

Really sorry you are having to continue putting up with this rubbish.

Julia


----------



## visual (9 March 2006)

Julia,
Just contacted them will be putting the whole saga in writing. Lets see how protected consumers are by the fair trading department.


----------



## visual (29 March 2006)

Consumer affairs,
contacted me apparently because machine is now out of warranty I have to take this matter to Vcat 
Asko still has my washing machine ,suppose their loan has now become my washing machine so I payed 1600 dollars for a second hand machine thats about 15 years old.
Asko sucks Harvey Norman are thieves and as consumers apparently we all need to have lawyers at our beck and call.


----------



## Julia (29 March 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Consumer affairs,
> contacted me apparently because machine is now out of warranty I have to take this matter to Vcat
> Asko still has my washing machine ,suppose their loan has now become my washing machine so I payed 1600 dollars for a second hand machine thats about 15 years old.
> Asko sucks Harvey Norman are thieves and as consumers apparently we all need to have lawyers at our beck and call.



Visual

Commiserations.  That is just awful.  What is Vcat?

Julia


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## Mumbank (29 March 2006)

I've had a F&P with computerised panel for 7 years now.  It died in the first 24 months so was covered by extended warranty included in because bought on DJs card.  Hasn't missed a beat since and have 3 sporting kids so it gets a workout.

My advice to anyone buying a w/m (or any electrical appliance really) is pay for the extended warranty - its worth it - a call out alone is now $100 easily plus $45 odd for 1st 1/2 hour!!!!


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## visual (29 March 2006)

vcat,is the small claims tribunal
which will mean paying a fee to see what can be done otherwise my only recourse seems to be legal advice which obviously will outstrip the cost of the machine.So much for consumer affairs  seems that because the machine is out of warranty they are now not in breach of the law and I have to go through this process to perhaps get my machine back.So all this time wasting has been done with the full knowledge that eventually they would be in the clear.However I will take this as far as I can.
Otherwise as I said the loan machine has turned into a very expensive second hand item.  ASKO as I said sucks and Harvey Norman will never again see one cent of my money for as long as I live.


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## visual (29 March 2006)

Mumbank said:
			
		

> I've had a F&P with computerised panel for 7 years now.  It died in the first 24 months so was covered by extended warranty included in because bought on DJs card.  Hasn't missed a beat since and have 3 sporting kids so it gets a workout.
> 
> My advice to anyone buying a w/m (or any electrical appliance really) is pay for the extended warranty - its worth it - a call out alone is now $100 easily plus $45 odd for 1st 1/2 hour!!!!





Mumbank,
the Asko came with 3 years warranty,which by the way the way they failed to inform me about,apparently the three years kicked in for machines bought after april 2000.Bought mine in May.Found this out from their website.When they tried to charge me for a service call and a faulty part,that in fact wasnt faulty at all.Agree with you however about the extended warranty,however in my wildest nightmare I never imagined that this situation could ever get to this stage ,previously had a simpson that never missed a beat in 14years so the extended warranty wouldnt been part of my plan based on that experience.I think the main problem is that ASKO is just a very unreliable company and Harvey Norman a good partner for them.


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## Mumbank (29 March 2006)

I definitely agree with you about Hardly Normal, I banned them long ago.  Sad though for you that Asko are so slack.  Good luck.


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## visual (29 March 2006)

Mumbank said:
			
		

> Hardly Normal.





Mumbank love it,I`m keeping it.Thanks  :


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## Prospector (29 March 2006)

Oh, after reading your saga I am going to give my 8 year old F&P a big hug so it keeps on working!  I have read on a few forums that Hardly Normal has appalling customer service  in all of its areas.


Julia, our pool has a timer setting that lets you program the time that you have the filter on.  I guess it is too late for you now but maybe next time?

In SA we can only use 'cheap power' (what an oxymoron) for our water heater!  Our electriticity bill is disgusting!


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## visual (29 March 2006)

Late this morning did what i`ve been threathening to do for a while,went into hardly normal ,with a loud voice announced that i wanted to speak to the manager about my w/m ,
about two minutes ago asko  phoned ,my machine is ready for delivery.
now will it work that is the question. :swear:


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## Mumbank (29 March 2006)

Well done Visual, you obviously didn't have that same wide eyed innocent look of your avatar!!!

Lets hope your w/m gives you many years of faithful service!!!


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## visual (29 March 2006)

Mumbank,you`re right ,I wore a red top ,ugly look and straight back.

And for the faithful service I very much doubt that i will get that,but through this discussion f/p seems to come up as being very reliable so next that will be my choice.so wish me luck.


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## Julia (29 March 2006)

Prospector said:
			
		

> Oh, after reading your saga I am going to give my 8 year old F&P a big hug so it keeps on working!  I have read on a few forums that Hardly Normal has appalling customer service  in all of its areas.
> 
> 
> Julia, our pool has a timer setting that lets you program the time that you have the filter on.  I guess it is too late for you now but maybe next time?
> ...




Hi Prospector

Yes, I have a pooltimer also.  It is connected to the odinary tariff to work as at present.  If the whole pool operation is moved onto  so called ultra cheap tariff then because there is no supply connected for about 4 hours per day it renders the timer useless.  Alternative appears to be buying another special pool timer at about another $400 to overcome the problem.  Adding this to electrician's fees, then Ergon changing the charges on all tariffs about two months after I began my enquiries, has resulted in my forgetting the whole idea.  Then when the electricity supply is thrown open to competition fairly soon who knows what tariffs will apply to what.  So I've just decided to pay the extra for running the heat pump during the winter (and in reverse in exceptionally hot weather to cool the water) .

Thanks for the suggestion.

Could you comment on the privatisation of the power supply in SA?
I gather it has been less than satisfactory from consumers' point of view?

Julia

Yes


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## Smurf1976 (29 March 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Hi Prospector
> 
> Yes, I have a pooltimer also.  It is connected to the odinary tariff to work as at present.  If the whole pool operation is moved onto  so called ultra cheap tariff then because there is no supply connected for about 4 hours per day it renders the timer useless.  Alternative appears to be buying another special pool timer at about another $400 to overcome the problem.  Adding this to electrician's fees, then Ergon changing the charges on all tariffs about two months after I began my enquiries, has resulted in my forgetting the whole idea.  Then when the electricity supply is thrown open to competition fairly soon who knows what tariffs will apply to what.  So I've just decided to pay the extra for running the heat pump during the winter (and in reverse in exceptionally hot weather to cool the water) .
> Yes



If it were me, then I would just rely on the internal rechargeable battery backup in the timer to keep it running when the power is off. Should last about 10 years before the battery dies. That said, I don't have any labour costs for electrical work so am a bit biased here...   

A possible solution for those in SA... 

This is going to look like a bit of a ramp, but since Aurora isn't a listed company (100% owned by the State of Tasmania) I shouldn't get in too much trouble.   For the record, I'm NOT employed by Aurora. *Please note that this is for household power only, not commercial customers* (though no problem if you just work from a home office as long as you are still classified as a residential electricity customer). For the technically minded, APAYG is for single phase power supply (which most homes have) only.

You CAN get cheaper electricity for EVERYTHING in the house, even the computer and fish tank (and everything else) if you switch to Aurora Pay As You Go (APAYG) instead of your conventional electricity retailer. Note that this is available in SA and Tas only at this stage.

Except for off-peak hot water, you will NOT have the supply interrupted to your appliances when it's more expensive (just use your own timer) so no costs for extra wiring etc and no need to get an electrician if it either plugs in (just use a plug-in timer) or already has a timer fitted.

The benefit is time of use pricing that applies to ALL your electricity consumption, not just hot water. Another benefit is that you NEVER get a power bill. The downside? At certain times the rate charged is higher than the conventional "flat" rate and you need to "pay as you go".

It works like this. Aurora arranges for the removal of your existing electricity meters and installs one APAYG meter in place of them. You are issued with a "smart" card, physically the size of a credit card. You then take the card to Aurora's outlets (various non-electricity retail stores eg newsagents) and hand over any amount (cash) you choose. This credit is transferred (in full) to the smart card. Then you put the card in the meter, the credit is transferred to the meter and you take the card back out. Simpler than it sounds as long as it's convenient for you to get to one of Aurora's APAYG outlets and it's not too hard to get to where your meters are. 

You can check how much credit you have at any time (displayed in $) just by looking at the screen on the meter and can "recharge" with any amount you like up to $100 and at any time. If you do run out of credit, the meter will switch the power off BUT it's programmed not to do this at inconvenient times such as weekends, middle of the night etc. And there's emergency credit (just push the button) if you need it (no interest or charges on the credit, it's just paid back when you recharge the card).

Your electricity will be EXACTLY the same with APAYG apart from the means of paying for it. Same power, same wires down the street etc.

You can find out more, what the actual rates are, where to recharge the card etc at www.apayg.com.au

There is a one-off $55 fee to install APAYG (covers everything, you DON'T have to get an electrician - Aurora will do this and your $55 covers everything). 

If you change your mind and want to go back to "conventional" electricity bills and charging then you can do so within 3 months free of charge (though you will not be refunded your $55 one-off fee). After 3 months, a $55 exit charge applies to pay for reinstalling conventional meters. That said, Aurora claims that well over 90% (about 98% from memory) stay permanently with the system.

Note that Aurora owns the meter and is responsible for keeping it working (so you don't pay if something goes wrong).

Would you actually save money? It depends on how much electricity you use, what you pay for it now, and most importantly WHEN you use it. If you have enough loads such as swimming pool pumps etc that you can shift to the cheaper times then you will save. It's cheaper at night and on weekends. Also it's cheaper in Winter than Summer.

APAYG is available in Tasmania (has been since 1995 and it's quite popular) and in SA only. Not available in the other states (so far). NOTE THAT DIFFERENT RATES APPLY TO TAS AND SA - make sure you are looking at the correct rates! And I strongly suggest you do your own calculations with reference to how much power you actually use (post questions on this thread if you don't know how...  )

www.apayg.com.au if you're in SA
www.auroraenergy.com.au is the Aurora home page (relevant for those in Tas wanting APAYG (click on "for home") or those elsewhere who just want to know more about the company).


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## Prospector (29 March 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Could you comment on the privatisation of the power supply in SA?
> I gather it has been less than satisfactory from consumers' point of view?
> 
> Julia





Sometimes it just gets too hard and you get so tired of   

I am not sure the privatisation is the real issue, but more that no-one wants to spend the money on the infrastructure to ensure that supplies are maintained - because that is never a short term voter issue!

And because the sell off was completed before the current Labor Government came to power, they use privatisation as the excuse for all evils!  Yet they continually ignore that they need to increase the staffing of the entity that services the power lines.  We had a major major blackout a few months ago, and when you rang the call centre, IF YOU GOT THRU, then the recorded message said that Batman (or similar person)  "had left the building" - much like the ending of Frasier.  And then the call terminated!  People were totally furious!  

During our recent heat wave (5 days of 40+ heat) people in the middle of Adelaide were left without power for 36 hours.  Can you imagine that - no refrigeration, shops without power etc etc!  And the only reason being that power installations had melted and there was not enough staff to make the repairs.

The Govt made a bid deal out of giving compensation cheques to some people who had suffered the power loss.  The next day people were ringing up and saying that they were waiting for their compensation cheques from six months earlier! :swear: 

So not only do we have very expensive power, it is also unreliable!  And Jack blames John who blames Robert who blames Jill..........and so we never actually fix the issue!

So, not happy Jan


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## Julia (29 March 2006)

visual said:
			
		

> Late this morning did what i`ve been threathening to do for a while,went into hardly normal ,with a loud voice announced that i wanted to speak to the manager about my w/m ,
> about two minutes ago asko  phoned ,my machine is ready for delivery.
> now will it work that is the question. :swear:




Well, what have we all learned from this?  Answer:  it doesn't pay to be polite, courteous, or patient.  You only got results, Visual, when you became threatening and even aggressive.  Sad, isn't it.

Before you all get too much in love with your F&P machines, my new F&P washing machine (less than 2 months old ) refused to complete the spin cycle a week ago.  It was slightly less than a full load, but I set it for a full load.  Eventually had to cart the dripping sheets out and put on the line, at which stage the remainder - towels etc - did spin normally.  I'll give it another go before I start squawking but if the same happens again, I won't be too backward in expressing my feelings.

Julia


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## Smurf1976 (30 March 2006)

SA power. (Be warned that this is a somewhat technical post. MW = Megawatt - 1 million Watts or enough to run about 7500 computers or 800 vacuum cleaners.   )

The fundamental problem in SA is twofold. One with distribution (the poles and wires), the other with generation.

With distribution the underlying problem is one of insufficient investment to provide adequate capacity in the network. SA power demand is VERY peaky with huge spikes when it's hot (fairly common in Adelaide...). Much of the system simply wasn't designed to cope with this and was in fact designed around a WINTER peak rather than a Summer one.

In short, it's not economic to upgrade the system under present regulatory rules. This partly relates to the separation of generation, transmission, distribution and retail. The distributor has no real incentive to keep the power on when they're not losing much from lost load - the generators and retailers are largely copping that. So competition is partly to blame here.

As a consumer, the only real thing you can do to influence this (apart from lobbying politicians) is to even out your power demand. Regardless of the actual rate you pay, switching off pool pumps etc. when it's very hot and running them at off-peak times will help the system technically. Another thing is to use MORE electricity at off-peak times. I don't mean blatant waste, but if everyone in SA used their air-conditioners for heating during Winter (believe it or not, air-conditioning is popular in Tas solely for use in Winter since it's a very cheap means of heating with many never turning it on during Summer) then that would help the economics of distribution (and it's actually more efficient than gas anyway from a technical perspective) since revenue to the distributor should increase without placing any real stress on the network. Either that funds upgrades or leads to lower unit prices for electricity via the regulatory process. And certainly don't be using continuous (non off-peak) electricity for hot water if you can avoid it for both technical and (yours as well as the distributor's) economic reasons.

Generation.

Fundamentally the SA industry has inbuilt high costs due to heavy reliance on gas. Competition has encouraged the building of HIGH cost generation plant (sorry economic theorists but it's not working...) rather than low cost plant. This is continuing to build in ongoing high costs for decades to come. Another problem is that the market (as opposed to central planning under the old ETSA) encourages the unnecessary running of high cost plant when lower cost plant could meet demand (off-peak times and days - most of the time). This both wastes resources (impacting the environment) and adds unnecessary costs.

What would I have done?

The Hallet and Pelican Point and Quarantine gas-fired plants and the Lonsdale diesel power station shouldn't have been built IMO. It would have made a LOT more sense to instead redevelop 3 (of 4) units at Torrens Island A power station into a combined-cycle gas turbine plant. This would have marginal operating costs around $20/MWh instead of about $30 for the Torrens Island plant as it is and around $50 for Hallet (Pelican Point has some low cost capacity but in the true spirit of competition (take note economists) it sits idle while higher cost plant is run. A true waste of gas and higher prices are the result.

I would also have looked very hard at converting Torrens Island B power station to dual fuel coal/gas firing. Despite the location (metropolitan Adelaide), I do believe that coal could be used acceptably there with proper emission controls. The site isn't perfect but it's not bad judging from what I've seen of it. Two (of 4) units at that plant are particularly suitable for coal conversion and indeed this was contemplated at the time of construction.

Doing this would have given SA a large source of cheap baseload electricity which it presently lacks. Costs would still be higher than the Eastern states, but by only a modest amount versus literally double at present.

So, you would have about 1780 MW of low cost plant at Torrens Island (around $20 / MWh marginal cost), one remaining 120 MW unit as is (around $30) with operation at full capacity of two of the B station units (only when demand is highest) to get the last 100 MW coming in at around $25. (For techical reasons the B station units would still use some gas to reach full capacity but this wouldn't be necessary more than 90% of the time).

Total plant capacity would be 2000 MW versus 1280 MW at present. Deduct the Quarantine, Pelican Point, Lonsdale and Hallet plants that I wouldn't have built and overall it's about the same capacity.

Add in the existing coal-fired plant at Port Augusta (Northern (520 MW) and Playford B (240 MW) power stations) and you would have a total installed low cost plant of 2540 MW versus about half that now. This would meet virtually all SA power demand except during the hottest weather. Under most conditions the plant would be competitive intermediate load generation with SA exporting cheap power to Victoria during a typical business day thus lowering prices there as well (with some impact in NSW and Tas (minimal in Qld) too).

The other thing that should (still could) happen is to change the status of the Murraylink Vic-SA interconnector to a regulated interconnector. At present it operates below capacity (forcing up SA prices) as a profit making venture. The change of status would involve the owner simply being paid a flat fee for their service (as with other transmission lines) and actual power flows no longer being restricted by the profit motive. The Directlink interconnector (Qld-NSW) has just undergone such a change.

This way virtually all power in SA would be supplied by either local low cost plant at higher fuel efficiency than at present (environment benefits) or imports from Victoria. The SA wholesale power price would then be similar to that elsewhere and you would have a system with genuinely viable long-term power plants rather than the present patchwork of outdated, inefficient plant using high cost fuels.

All this could have been done and would have fitted very nicely with the technically driven focus of state-owned suppliers. Unfortunately it doesn't fit with the profit motive of competing private owners who prefer to relocate seccond hand plant from overseas rather than commit to the long term supply of electricity. 

At the time of posting, wholesale electricity prices are about $29 in SA, $19 in Vic, $17 in NSW and $14 in Qld. SA power demand is 1423 MW with 536 MW being imported from Vic and the rest from local generation. Enough said really...

On a positive note, the high prices in SA have enabled Hydro Tasmania to commence operations in SA (they're also doing things in China, India and various other countries too) at a good profit. Nothing stopped the other states from doing much the same but they grabbed the quick cash of privatisation instead. Now it's pay, pay and pay again. But they haven't learnt and are going to repeat the mistakes with privatisation of the Snowy Hydro. Rather than selling it, IMO it would make more sense to increase the rainfall (there's a proven method for doing this which has been used in Tas for the past 40 years) and thus put more water in the Murray to help the environment whilst increasing clean power generation, thus leading to lower greenhouse gas emissions. That sounds too much like a good idea though...


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## visual (30 March 2006)

Julia said:
			
		

> Before you all get too much in love with your F&P machines, my new F&P washing machine (less than 2 months old ) refused to complete the spin cycle a week ago.  .
> 
> Julia





Oh Julia,
I wish you luck but dont let it go too long,obviously whatever these morons changed in the manufacturing process still hasnt been changed back,as I learned with Asko they know very well that once the machine goes out of waranty they are in the clear.It must be a lot cheaper  for them to stick to the kind of manufacturing that they are obviously sticking to.Whatever excuse they give you just ask for a replacement as this looks like the only way to force change.
By the way it was a smaller retailer who advised me to go in and make a fuss in the actual shop as the manufacturer would then be under pressure by the people who sell their products and would have to do something about it.
Of course a bigger retailer shouldnt need a screaming costumer to do that because they sell enough product to actually be the first to know about these problems due to the quantity that they sell ,unfortunately though as I said the price of manufacturing must be a hell of a lot less ,so they stick with it.
Which makes me think that there must be lots of people who just put up with this rubbish for them to continue in their merry way.
Best of luck.


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## bunyip (30 March 2006)

Money Tree

Does leaving your computer on really cost 30c an hour (or 40c if you leave the monitor on as well)?
And does this apply to laptops too?
Seems like a heck of a lot to me. 

Between my kids and myself we keep our two computers - a laptop and a desktop - running close to 24 hours a day. The kids rarely switch off the computer after completing homework or whatever, and its never really concerned me because I always believed that computers use very little power. 

Although my power bill is fairly hefty, (pool, air cons, bore etc), its not big enough to suggest that my computers chew up 30 to 40c an hour per unit in power costs. 

I'm really interested in finding out just how much it really does cost to run a computer. If its quite expensive then I could possibly save myself a heap of loot by being more dilligent in turning mine off when they're not in use.

Cheers
Bunyip


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## Happy (30 March 2006)

I thought that 200 W for computer would be most one can expect and that’s including 19” LCD monitor.

As to Laptop especially new ones that are designed to save on power, I would think  ¼ of the first one.

So both would consume 1KW per 4 hours, making it more like 30 to 50 cents a day  (24hours).


I thought that, but now not sure.


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## Smurf1976 (30 March 2006)

A computer with 17" monitor draws about 130 W.

Left running for a year it will use 1.14 MWh which will cost $110 - $300 depending on your power supply arrangements. Typically about $170.

If you have air-conditioning then you will need to add in the cost of the extra load placed on that from the computer being switched on. That would 30 to 50% to the overall computer energy use.

HOWEVER cost is absolutely a trivial issue here...

Monitors are a known fire hazard and a common cause of building fires. It never ceases to amaze me that people worry about relatively safe things like heaters being left on but then leave the genuinely hazardous monitor running.

And leaving a computer running for a year creates as much greenhouse gas pollution as driving a medium sized car about 4000 Km. To put that another way, if every house in Australia leaves one computer running 24/7 then that will take the entire output of a reasonably large coal-fired or nuclear power station or twice the output of the entire Snowy Hydro scheme. So, at the risk of being political, anyone who finds it too time consuming to wait for the computer to boot in the morning would be outright hipocritical (sp?) to complain about rising greenhouse gas emissions or the inevitable building of nuclear power stations in Australia.  

If you MUST leave the computer running then at least switch off the monitor when it's not needed. This applies equally to LCD and CRT monitors (that is, all computer monitors). The monitor is responsible for about 75% of the energy use. Laser printers on standby are big guzzlers too.

Personally, 30 seconds isn't that valuable to me anyway. Pretty unusual that I don't have something else to do while the computer boots up so I switch it off at night.


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## Happy (30 March 2006)

And with power saving little program in PC anyway one can have computer set up to do all the power saving moves itself.

My screen goes blank after 20 minutes and I am wandering if I shouldn’t set it on 10.
What worries me here, is the damage, power surge does to the screen itself on startup.

If it is anything as damaging as starting vacuum cleaner for example, then if you use computer it would be silly to damage it by constantly switching it on and off.

Does anybody have some comment on this little area?


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## bunyip (30 March 2006)

Well I'm mighty pleased to hear that PC's don't gurgle 40c worth of power every hour anyway!
I'll be turning mine off from now on when they're not in use.....wasn't aware of the fire hazard bit. 

Thanks for the info.

Bunyip


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## Smurf1976 (30 March 2006)

I'm happy to go into technical details if anyone really wants me to, but briefly I suggest the following based on both technical testing and field observations.

The bottom line is that consumer electronic devices have an intended lifespan of about 5 years from new to junk. This is lower for VCR's (about 4 years) and computers (about 3 years) and longer for non-washing machine whitegoods, built-in heaters, air-conditioners and stoves. For hot water heaters it is a question of maintenance - no maintenance and expect a burst cylinder anytime after 7 years.   

But if you want it to last longer then, if it is an electronic device with a switchmode power supply (computers, videos, some washing machines etc)then I strongly advise that you disconnect power to the device when it's not being used. A bit impractical for videos etc but it's usually not hard to turn the washing machine off at the power point when not in use. 

For *computer monitors and TV's*, in general don't switch it off for less than 30 minutes at a time and don't leave it on "standby". Frequent switching stresses everything whilst leaving it on standby tends to wear out the electronics and is how most monitor fires are believed to start. So if you're going to be away for half an hour then leave it on. Any longer than that and turn it off.

For *fridges and freezers*, keep it defrosted regularly if it's not frost free, keep the condenser clean (black pipes around the back in older models, often totally concealed in newer models and not requiring attention) and keep the door seals in good order. Be aware that the butter conditioner is in fact a heating element inside the fridge - enough said really, don't leave it on if you don't use it. 

Most *mains pressure hot water heaters * (those with a tank, eg Rheem and Dux brands) have a sacrificial anode fitted to minimise corrosion. This wears out and should be replaced every 5 years (10 years for some heavy duty models eg Rheem Optima). Fail to replace the anode and in due course corrosion starts and you end up with a failed cylinder and quite possibly a flood. But you will not be able to replace the anode if there is no space (nearly equal in height to the cylinder itself) above the cylinder as the anode is a long metal rod which will not bend. Put the tank where's it's accessible if installing a new one... Strictly speaking it's a job for a plumber but anyone with a spanner or socket set and reasonable strength can do the job. A new anode costs less than $50. Be careful to not damage the tank lining when replacing the anode and turn the water off first. You will also get longer life from your hot water cylinder if it has a pressure limiting valve (typically 500KPa which is still "mains" pressure reduced only slightly) on the inlet. It's also advisable to flush the cylinder occasionally as an amazing amount of sediment settles out of the water and collects at the bottom of the tank. This is quite corrosive.  

*Fisher and Paykel washing machines*. Turn the machine off at the plug when it's not being used otherwise the electronics run rather warm and this is likely to induce premature failure (a common complaint with these machines). This is not a safety issue as it's not _that_ hot but simply a case of the warm conditions drying out the capacitors over time thus leading to failure. And never open the lid when the machine is spinning at full speed as there is a design flaw in some models which results in excessive voltage reaching the electronics. This has been known to cause instant failure. If you must stop the machine during the spin cycle then change the spin speed to slow first as this will greatly reduce the risk. The problem is worst in those machines produced after Phase 4 (ie newer models). It's no issue as long as you don't open the lid when it's spinning.

I have investigated the "doing funny things all the time" problem which is the usual cause of failure of F&P machines. On the machine examined it was a simple matter of resoldering the control board, mostly in the vicinity of the electrolytic capacitors on the 335VDC (measured voltage) side. These are physically the two largest capacitors on the board. It was a Phase 2 (circa 1995) machine that was examined and it has run around 20 cycles flawlessly since resoldering. Caution: These machines generate internal voltages up to about 500 Volts DC under certain conditions. This can KILL you. Don't attempt repairs if you aren't absolutely confident that you can work safely on mains powered equipment. Note also that there is some surface mount components that required resoldering on at least some models (if you don't know what this means then you shouldn't be doing the job).

*Incandescent light bulbs * do NOT wear out more quickly due to frequent switching. I have done very extensive (work related) testing on this. A lamp constantly flashing will last about the same number of hours as one constantly on. The flashing one will have been "on" only half the time but the overall lifespan is the same. And you wouldn't be flashing the lights at home so in practice the bulbs will last longer if turned off. "Surge" current when the light is turned on is irrelevant in the context of your electricity bill. No more than the bulb uses in a second or so anyway. 

*Fluorescent lights * generally don't like being turned on an off. I suggest that you don't install them in places where they will be on for less than 20 minutes at a time. If you want far greater reliability and no flickering, especially if they are only used for short periods (eg bathrooms), then change the starters for electronic starters (simple DIY task, about $15 each (one starter per tube) from any electrical wholesaler, Thorn "Fluoropulse" is one such product). Be aware that these starters are NOT suitable for fittings with two 18 or 20 watt tubes but are suitable for other types including single 18 watt, single or double 36 (or 40) watt, single or double 85 (or 65) watt, circular tubes etc. And if you don't like the "white" light and prefer something that resembles the "yellow" light of an incansescent bulb then you need 830 type tubes ("warm white") rather than the 840 (cool white) that you probably have now. 840 are the type found in offices etc. 830 produces light similar to an ordinary bulb (still bright like an 840 but not as "white"). On the other hand if you want something close to natural daylight then you want an 860 tube (not good at home IMO - daylight is quite "blue" and "cold"). Try Bunnings, a lighting shop or an electrical wholesaler.


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## Happy (31 March 2006)

This is great stuff Smurf.

Would you care to go on?

There is also some information around about stand-by mode, being the biggest power consumer of this and next generation as probably one after that will have something not as power hungry.

Some stand-by power consumption is as high as 15W = about 1 kW in 67 hours and it translates to 130 kW a year about $20 a year.
Somebody might say this is not much I can afford that.
Multiply this by 5 devices per dwelling, multiply by 5,000,000 households + 5,000,000 offices in Australia only and add every other country, and it is a lot of power waisted, isn’t it?

Figure will be lower if device is used, as I believe that stand-by circuit is off when device is on, but this is only my guess.


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## visual (3 April 2006)

the asko  is back 
i`ve already done 3 loads of washing and it seems to be ok  the door feels a little different but as long as it locks   i`m going to put up with it who knows maybe they fixed that too!thats why it feels a little different,
much quiter and last rinse seems clean ,now i`m hoping that by writing this i have not jinxed myself.


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