# Market Price or Set Limit Price



## ENP (2 September 2012)

When buying/selling stocks in amounts of >10k do you prefer to place orders at a set limit or at a market price?

There doesn't seem to be much information available regarding this as what are the benefits of either approach.


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## Julia (2 September 2012)

What do you think yourself, ENP?


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## Gringotts Bank (2 September 2012)

ENP said:


> When buying/selling stocks in amounts of >10k do you prefer to place orders at a set limit or at a market price?
> 
> There doesn't seem to be much information available regarding this as what are the benefits of either approach.




Depends on the stock and whether there's bot activity.

Say you're trading BHP.  Your 10K means nothing to anyone.  Know your buy price and set a limit order, or conditional order so that you don't get a partial fill.

Say you're trading SIR on 26/7/12.  Your 10K means nothing to anyone.  Limit order, or market if you're in a hurry, or conditional if you want to avoid partial fill.

Say you're trading AGI, where there's one dominant bot that decides where the price is going to sit every day, and it sees you (retail trader) sitting in line either as a bidder or seller.  The bot will sell it down if it sees your sell order appear near the top of the queue.  On the other hand, bots will bid it up, or worse take a tiny nibble of your bid then make the price run if they see your bid near the top of the queue.  They try to make you sell lower than you wanted or buy higher than you wanted.  Remember instos can own the *whole depth* of lightly traded stocks and they can see your order a mile off... it sits out like dog's balls.  We on the other hand have no idea of the broker codes and can't tell what's what. * DON'T let the bastards see your moves. *  Always market order this type of stock.
This is less important on days when there's high turnover or there's more than one bot active.


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## tech/a (2 September 2012)

Amazing
You believe this rubbish


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Say you're trading AGI, where there's bots all over it and they see you (retail trader) sitting in line either as a bidder or seller.  Bots will sell it down if they see your sell order appear near the top of the queue.  On the other hand, bots will bid it up, or worse take a tiny nibble of your bid then make the price run if they see your bid near the top of the queue.  They try to make you sell lower than you wanted or buy higher than you wanted.  Remember instos can own the *whole depth* of lightly traded stocks and they can see your order a mile off... it sits out like dog's balls.  We on the other hand have no idea of the broker codes and can't tell what's what.




With all due respect GB are you for real??

All that to move a $1m per day stock. Never going to happen. 



> We on the other hand have no idea of the broker codes and can't tell what's what.



No one can see the broker codes. The ASX stopped publishing which clearers hold the orders about 5 years ago.


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## Gringotts Bank (2 September 2012)

tech/a said:


> Amazing
> You believe this rubbish




Mate you trade 5K lots so you wouldn't have seen it in action.  Check out the course of sales on AGI.


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## Gringotts Bank (2 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> No one can see the broker codes. The ASX stopped publishing which clearers hold the orders about 5 years ago.




ok broker codes have gone - I got that wrong, but an insto can still own the large majority of a market depth.  It can also know if it's the only bot active (by looking at the orders going through) and it can therefore assume that any other order is retail, especially if it's around 5-10K.  In other words it can "see" retail traders.

Every time I have placed a limit order at the top of the buy or sell queue on that stock, some bot has jumped in front of me with a bunch of tiny orders, and the price moves a few ticks away from me.  Try it yourself.


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> It can also know if it's the only bot active (by looking at the orders going through) and it can therefore assume that any other order is retail, especially if it's around 5-10K.  In other words it can "see" retail traders.




You crack me up.    

Unreal!


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## Gringotts Bank (2 September 2012)

Trembling Hand said:


> You crack me up.
> 
> Unreal!




Anyone can see there's bots active on AGI.  That much is absolutely undeniable.

Now what... you're saying the bots are only ever programmed to get as close to VWAP as possible?

Programming a bot to manipulate retail traders would be easy.  You tell it "if you see a large order near the top of the queue, push the price away from it 2 ticks so long as you're buying/selling your own stock".


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## ENP (2 September 2012)

Julia said:


> What do you think yourself, ENP?




Well when ever I buy or sell stock, I like to do it immediately or at least within a period of a few minutes. I generally always use a set price limit prior to the market opening and match the lowest sell price or the highest buy price. 

Yes I may lose out on a few cents each way and may be able to get it cheaper, however I once did a set limit order a few cents lower, I was only able to buy 1/3 of the shares I wanted and they never came down to that level again so I had to spend the next few weeks wishing, but ended up closing my trade not to double on commission and bought the other 2/3 of them for about a 5% higher stock price. 

I prefer to make quick decisive decisions and buy or sell on a set order knowing I'll close out the deal at 10am when the market opens.


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## Trembling Hand (2 September 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Anyone can see there's bots active on AGI.  That much is absolutely undeniable.




Well I will. There is no way anyone will waste their time on a stock that has 1 mil turnover. Bloody hell mate thats just 7 futs contracts.


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## Julia (2 September 2012)

ENP said:


> Well when ever I buy or sell stock, I like to do it immediately or at least within a period of a few minutes. I generally always use a set price limit prior to the market opening and match the lowest sell price or the highest buy price.



OK, thanks for the reply.  How do you determine your price?
(I have the impression you are buying for the longer term but may have this wrong?)


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## ENP (3 September 2012)

Julia said:


> OK, thanks for the reply.  How do you determine your price?
> (I have the impression you are buying for the longer term but may have this wrong?)




I determine the price I want to buy the business for mainly by keeping it simple and looking at the P/E ratio, I don't want to complicate things with all these confusing angles to look at it. But mainly, I try to buy the very best businesses for 14.29 P/E or less and 2nd tier (but still very good) businesses for 12.5 P/E or less. This gives me a 7% yield for the best and 8% yield for the next tier down. 

Yes I hold for the mid/long term. I prefer long term, thinking in decades, but if there is something that comes to my attention about one of my stocks that means I am no longer happy to keep them then I have no problem selling and selling quickly.


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## Julia (3 September 2012)

ENP said:


> I determine the price I want to buy the business for mainly by keeping it simple and looking at the P/E ratio, I don't want to complicate things with all these confusing angles to look at it. But mainly, I try to buy the very best businesses for 14.29 P/E or less and 2nd tier (but still very good) businesses for 12.5 P/E or less. This gives me a 7% yield for the best and 8% yield for the next tier down.



Thank you for explaining.  So, even if a stock has been ranging over a few months between $1 and $2 e.g., you take no notice of price as an entry criteria?


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## Kee37 (5 September 2012)

Julia said:


> What do you think yourself, ENP?



Oh my...


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## Smurf1976 (5 September 2012)

Since my strategy usually identifies trading opportunities before a target price is reached, and I have a day job when the market is open, I do all my trading using limit prices.

The answer to the original question really depends on circumstances. A long term investor who also works during the day is very different to a short term trader who spends all day trading.


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## ENP (7 September 2012)

Julia said:


> So, even if a stock has been ranging over a few months between $1 and $2 e.g., you take no notice of price as an entry criteria?




How is entry price not related to the P/E ratio?


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## Smack (8 September 2012)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Depends on the stock and whether there's bot activity.
> 
> Say you're trading BHP.  Your 10K means nothing to anyone.  Know your buy price and set a limit order, or conditional order so that you don't get a partial fill.
> 
> ...




I can vouch for this.  My wife has been actively day trading for 1 year now and clearly sees this behaviour by the market makers almost every day.  We have changed our trading behaviour to accommodate this influence/manipulation and have done very well.  We also know that we upset their automated buying and selling with pleasure.  We trade with very large volumes at a time, and this wreaks havoc with their games.  We win most times........

BTW - what is 'bot'?

Smack


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