# Has the 100 year Jihad (war) begun ... ???



## DB008 (21 August 2014)

Mixed Religious Ideologies (Christianity vs Islam)

Tolerant vs Intolerant (Christianity vs Islam)

Terror attacks on the West (Madrid, New York, London, Bali) and Wars (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria) 

Beheadings of citizens of the West

Politicians don't want to address/talk about this issue because they will lose votes...


*Is this the start of the 100 year war?*


*We’ll fight radical Islam for 100 years, says ex-army head Peter Leahy*



> AUSTRALIA needs to prepare for an increasingly savage, 100-year war against radical Islam that will be fought on home soil as well as foreign lands, the former head of the army, Peter Leahy, has warned.
> 
> Professor Leahy, a leading defence and strategic analyst, told The Weekend Australian the country was ill-prepared for the high cost of fighting a war that would be paid in “blood and treasure” and would require pre-emptive as well as reactive action.
> 
> ...






> The government’s security package also includes a $630 million funding boost to intelligence agencies and police to help prevent domestic terrorist attacks.
> 
> Professor Leahy ”” a former lieutenant general who ran the army for six years, from 2002-2008 ”” said the threat of radical Islam would require action on several fronts, including a strengthening of controls against biological, chemical and nuclear attacks.
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/well-fight-radical-islam-for-100-years-says-exarmy-head-peter-leahy/story-e6frg8yo-1227018630297


_*What are your views?

Where do you stand?*_


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## So_Cynical (21 August 2014)

I gave this some thought the other day, the rise of radical Islam started in the late 1990's starting with the 1998 US embassy bombings in East Africa and obviously came to prominence with Sept 11 - so we are about 16 years into this..looking at other historical terrorist movements we can see that in general these have 20 or 30 year life spans.


 Red Brigades 70's and 80's
 IRA 70's 80's and 90's 
 Palestinian/Black September 70's 80's and 90's 

I know im generalising a bit here but hopefully we are about half way through this, once this generation of radicals are done with that should be about the end of it.


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## SirRumpole (21 August 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I gave this some thought the other day, the rise of radical Islam started in the late 1990's starting with the 1998 US embassy bombings in East Africa and obviously came to prominence with Sept 11 - so we are about 16 years into this..looking at other historical terrorist movements we can see that in general these have 20 or 30 year life spans.
> 
> 
> Red Brigades 70's and 80's
> ...




The Red Brigades, IRA and Black September were pipsqueaks compared to the power of Islam on a global basis.

I'm afraid that we are in for a much longer battle this time. I don't think we can win soon on a global front, but domestically we have to cut immigration from Islamic countries and not make the problem any worse here than it is now.


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## Julia (21 August 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I gave this some thought the other day, the rise of radical Islam started in the late 1990's starting with the 1998 US embassy bombings in East Africa and obviously came to prominence with Sept 11 - so we are about 16 years into this..looking at other historical terrorist movements we can see that in general these have 20 or 30 year life spans.
> 
> 
> Red Brigades 70's and 80's
> ...



That sounds very optimistic to me.  My interpretation of Peter Leahy's prediction was that the 100 years is just beginning.  As far as the actual 100 years is concerned, I expect he chose that term to draw attention, rather than any exact expectation of what will happen in terms of time.

I don't think it's possible to say at this stage what will happen.  The fanatical obsession of Islamic extremists seems to know no bounds, and any success they have seems to just reinforce their determination to create an Islamic world.

There seems to be a general expectation that it's up to the USA to 'do something about it'.
 Why?
Already, just from their air strikes to try to protect the persecuted Christians and other minorities, the repercussion of one of their innocent journalists being barbarically beheaded has happened.  There seems no reason to imagine more will not follow.

Why should the USA put their citizens in harm's way?   Why don't the ME nations opposed to ISIS (or whatever it's currently calling itself) consider they have some responsibility to maintain peace in their region?

I have more questions, and no answers.
Thanks for starting the thread DB.  It's most timely.


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## noco (21 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Mixed Religious Ideologies (Christianity vs Islam)
> 
> Tolerant vs Intolerant (Christianity vs Islam)
> 
> ...




Actually it started 1400 years ago and it has always failed to succeed.


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## Wysiwyg (21 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Why should the USA put their citizens in harm's way?   Why don't the ME nations opposed to ISIS (or whatever it's currently calling itself) consider they have some responsibility to maintain peace in their region?



My thoughts too. Why is not the Iraq National Army amassing their forces to destroy this, as Pres. U.S. said, "cancer". Laws of nature applies with these radicals.


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## gordon2007 (21 August 2014)

Julia said:


> I have more questions, and no answers...
> It's most timely.




How very apt.


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## dutchie (21 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The Red Brigades, IRA and Black September were pipsqueaks compared to the power of Islam on a global basis.
> 
> I'm afraid that we are in for a much longer battle this time. I don't think we can win soon on a global front, but domestically we have to cut immigration from Islamic countries and not make the problem any worse here than it is now.




I hope mainstream Australia realises this before its too late.

What is the point in bringing in more potential problems?  There's no upside for Australia.


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## luutzu (21 August 2014)

Wouldn't start until there's a "terror" clock and a "terror" scale to go with it.






There's a rising Dragon in our neighbourhood, hungry for resources and land; There's a restless Bear that used to challenge our Western powers for domination and is funding a rebellion to push back Western influence; Maybe a nuclear India with some 1 billion people no one seem to complain about beside bad IT help desk operators.

Maybe our closest ally has $14 trillion of debts and still fighting wars after wars; Maybe our own financial industry experts giving bad advice and wasting our billions of retirement savings, asking for more and more of it to play with; 

Maybe our leadership ought to be a bit smarter and more... democratic... and treat all people who call Australia home, who grow up in Australia, are raising their family in Australia and, presumably are like all the "Team Australia" Australians would want their children a prosperous and secure future in Australia as Australians... maybe instead of  running scare campaigns and marginalise these Australians and spending hundreds of millions to track its people, maybe doing that and we won't live with too high a risk of home grown terror.

Michael Scheuer, former CIA analyst and unit leader, was laughing when he said that the US, the most powerful military in the world, is now flying drones around Arab countries, killing its enemies one by one. It's hilarious.

You know, if Tibet were to fly its drones above Sydney and every now and then one of my people got blown up because Tibet doesn't like him... I'd probably wouldn't like Tibet that much, no matter how enlightened the Dalai Lama is.


Terrorism is a serious matter. So are potential wars and real invasion by a national force... We need real leadership and real statesman with real policies, not politicians running the country like they're running election campaigns and turning our people into bigots and idiots.


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## Calliope (21 August 2014)

dutchie said:


> I hope mainstream Australia realises this before its too late.
> 
> What is the point in bringing in more potential problems?  There's no upside for Australia.




As I said on another thread (Abbotts Counter Terrorism Measures) ...its too late already. Why bother with terrorist attacks when they can do it by manipulating the Labor party.



> I think it is fairly obvious that no half-arsed anti-terrorist proposals will stop the Islamic subjugation of Europe and eventually Australia. In fact they now control 15 Federal seats courtesy of Labor.


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## luutzu (21 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> As I said on another thread (Abbotts Counter Terrorism Measures) ...its too late already;




I can't speak for anyone, let alone any Muslims, but I feel sorry for you guys.

My family escaped oppression, escaped tyranny. Our parents worked very hard for our education, wanting us to be productive member of society.

Growing up, every once in a while when my parents could watch "Fast Forward", I always hear them say how lucky we are to be in Australia each time they see people can make fun of Bob Hawke and Paul Keating and not go to prison for it.

While there certainly are some who hate secular, non-religious democracies living in Australia... I'm willing to bet you that most people who escape dictators, escape religious fanaticism... we are the people who will stand up and defend Australia and its democratic values just as much if not more than you. 

We will do it because we have heard from our parents, because we have known from our own experiences what it is like to have an oppressive, a racist, a bigoted government and its institutions running a country.

Being racist and bigoted like this and you're already losing a war you claim to fight for, you already lost the values and moral fabric of a great society you're claiming to defend.


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## Calliope (22 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> .
> My family escaped oppression, escaped tyranny. Our parents worked very hard for our education, wanting us to be productive member of society.




From what country did they escape? How did they escape, and what was the oppression and tyranny they escaped from? I ask because I haven't got a clue as to what you are on about.:shake:


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## noco (22 August 2014)

noco said:


> Actually it started 1400 years ago and it has always failed to succeed.




SAD WORLD WE LIVE IN--BUT THE FACTS DON'T LIE
This is all factually (and historically) correct - and verifiable. 

In 732 AD the Muslim Army which was moving on Paris
was defeated and turned back at Tours, France, by Charles Martell.

In 1571 AD the Muslim Army/ Navy was defeated by the Italians and Austrians as they tried to cross
the Mediterranean to attack southern Europe in the Battle of Lapanto. 

In 1683 AD the Turkish Muslim Army, attacking Eastern Europe, was finally defeated in the Battle
of Vienna by German and Polish Christian Armies. 

...this crap has been going on for 1,400 years and half of these damn politicians don't even know it.                     

If these battles had not been won we might be speaking Arabic and Christianity could be non -
existent;  Judaism certainly would be...    And let us not forget that Hitler was an admirer of Islam and that the
Mufti of Jerusalem was Hitler's guest in Berlin and raised Bosnian Muslim SS Divisions: the 13th and
21st Waffen SS Divisions who killed Jews, Russians, Gypsies, and any other "subhumans". 

Reflecting, a lot of Americans have become so insulated from 
reality that they imagine that America can suffer defeat without any inconvenience to themselves.

Pause a moment, reflect back. These events are actual events from history.   They really happened!!! 
Do you remember? 

1. In 1968, Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male.

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim males.

3. In 1972 a Pan Am 747 was hijacked and eventually diverted to Cairo where a fuse was lit 
on final approach, it was blown up shortly after landing by Muslim males.

4. In 1973 a Pan Am 707 was destroyed in Rome, 
with 33 people killed, when it was attacked with grenades by Muslim males.

5. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim males.

6. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim males.

7. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim males.

8. In 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was 
murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim males.

9. In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue 
passengers was murdered by Muslim males.

10. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim males.

11. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim males.

12. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim males.

13. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade 
Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and 
crashed by the passengers.   Thousands of people were killed by Muslim males.

14. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim males.

15. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and beheaded by---you guessed it was a--- Muslim male.

16. In 2013, Boston Marathon Bombing 4 Innocent 
people including a child killed, 264 injured by Muslim males.

No, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?

So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport 
security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people.  So, ask yourself "Just how 
stupid are we???" 

Absolutely No Profiling! 

They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper 
identification, secret agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old, 
Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave 
Muslim Males, alone lest they be guilty of profiling. 

Ask yourself "Just how stupid are we?"

Have the American people completely lost their minds or just their Power of Reason???
As the writer of the award winning story 'Forrest Gump' so aptly put it, 'Stupid Is As Stupid Does'.


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## So_Cynical (22 August 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The Red Brigades, IRA and Black September were pipsqueaks compared to the power of Islam on a global basis.
> 
> I'm afraid that we are in for a much longer battle this time.




Size matters, however if we consider the global audience pull of radical Islam with the actual numbers on the ground and the carnage that has already been exacted on them, i think this (ISIS) could be the last hurrah.

The gulf war and Afghanistan was the first war fought against radical Islam and that war drew in fighters from all over the world, they fought and died by the 10's of thousands...now we have the second wave ISIS and they total what 3 or 4 thousand foreign fighters and maybe 10 or 15 thousand locals, trapped in northern Iraq and eastern Syria.

They haven't got a chance, and have very little to genuinely offer the disgruntled Muslim youth of the world.


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## overhang (22 August 2014)

I wasn't sure if I should put this doco in this thread or the religion is crazy thread as they're both applicable. 
Anyone interested in the uprising of the IS should take a look at this doco that consists of a film crew who traveled with IS recently.


A few key points. Non-Muslims have nothing to worry about as we can escape persecution by either converting to Islam or paying the IS a non-Muslim tax.....
You will see in the doco how religion is used as a tool to support their position, to recruit and drive their agenda, it's quite troubling how brainwashed these children are. 
In short I have no doubt this is a 100 year war, these extremists want world domination, they will convert moderate Muslims via fear and intimidation


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## Calliope (22 August 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> .now we have the second wave ISIS and they total what 3 or 4 thousand foreign fighters and maybe 10 or 15 thousand locals, trapped in northern Iraq and eastern Syria.
> 
> They haven't got a chance, and have very little to genuinely offer the disgruntled Muslim youth of the world.




In Mosul the government troops greatly outnumbered the ISIS terrorists, but they threw down their weapons and fled in panic. ISIS seized vast amounts of weaponry and billions in bullion from the banks. 

Why are the Muslim youth of the world disgruntled? Because they  can't all join ISIS and train to be Jihadists?



> At least one in four of the estimated 2,000 foreigners fighting for ISIS in Syria and Iraq is British - and half of those are already back in the UK, it has emerged today.
> Serious questions have been raised as to whether enough is being done to stem the flow of fighters after the Government revealed it has only seized 23 passports this year to prevent them travelling to the war zone.
> The Government says there are around 500 British among the fighters while a further 250 are thought to have already returned to the UK where the police and security services are attempting to watch them.
> *That means there are now almost three times as many British Muslims fighting for Islamic State than there are serving in the UK military, an MP has claimed.
> *




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...te-British-half-ALREADY-UK.html#ixzz3B4b2KHvd 




> Witnesses on the ground and Iraqi officials in Baghdad said insurgents belonging to the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria overwhelmed national security forces and took control of key ingredients for a jihadist statelet: a civilian airport, a military airport, a military division headquarters, a border crossing with Syria, a weapons depot, government offices, banks and television stations.




Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/06/10/229877/police-army-flee-as-isis-seizes.html#storylink=cpy


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## orr (22 August 2014)

It's a method that's been working so well up until now for the the US strategists. So I suppose it is not surprising to see the same techniques being used by a lot of the above posters,  'Drone' on Drone on I say team Australia. 
I wonder if there'll be any 'blow back' ???

Diversionary tactics... what diversionary tactics... quick look over there....Is that a Brandis I see or a Cardinal or an Abetz, with a with a back yard and some  wire coat hangers, no no no it's a budget emergency, Ahh no it's not, oh. Just a bloke with a lot brown paper bags; 
'Hold these for me for a minute will you please  Peta.  Thanks my darling'
.... Youth unemployment ???? it's alright my daughters got a nice scholarship and doesn't need to buy petrol, she gets the bus...


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## luutzu (22 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> From what country did they escape? How did they escape, and what was the oppression and tyranny they escaped from? I ask because I haven't got a clue as to what you are on about.:shake:




Vietnam. Escaped Communism by boat.

You might see China or Vietnam now and wonder what oppression... the current gov't would also ask the same thing too.

When we left, we were considered traitors to the "Motherland", there are instances of boats that managed to escaped the coast guards but Vnese fishing boats, civilian fishing boats, would chase them and tow them back and hand them over to the gov't.

If our boat were caught, our home would be confiscated, we'd be imprisoned for a couple of years though my father would served longer. 

My parents had sold everything we have to get us on that boat, the only thing they have left were literally that tiny house - to sell it would cause suspicion...

At sea, there are dangers from piracy, dead engines, starvation... we were the lucky ones who reached a refugee camp in only 3 days and four nights relatively unscathed. Just an onset of starvation and dehydration due to the drinking water tank being rusted and there's no water the last two days.

---
I've experienced some minor incident of racism growing up, but overall, Australia is a great country with good people. 

So to suggest that people who know what it's like to live under oppressive regimes like Communist VN, or who are lucky enough to escape poverty and religious persecution... to suggest that they would want to turn Australia into a country like the one they left behind is insane.

While I can't speak for any Arab-Australian, I'm sure most feel the same way about Australia as myself, my siblings and other migrant friends I know growing up.

I saw a lecture by Harvard Professor of political science - Stephen Walt - citing that surveys after surveys of public opinions, opinions of ordinary people in the Middle East... they are overwhelmingly favouring democratic, free and open society under the rule of law; that they like our Western values; they overwhelmingly hate their kings and dictators.

Walt said the survey shows that the people of the Middle East do not hate Americans or our freedom and democracy, they want the same thing for their own country. Just they do not like American policies imposed on them by America through propped up dictators and kings who are too friendly to Western powers, namely the US, and sold the people's resources from under them.

---

So to suggest that Arabs and Muslims are all radical extremists wanting to overthrow our values and turn Australia into an unstable, warring hell hole like most of the Middle East is... there are just no logical, no factual, no sensible basis for it.

They, like me, would rather put up with Bible bashing Abbott for another 2 years or so than try to supplant a rich and stable society to somehow put in power a Koran abusing idiot.

To suggest anyone would want that is just pure bigotry.

That's not to say there are no extremist radical, no home grown terrorists... you wouldn't find any Australians, Arabs or otherwise, supporting that kind of people.

But if we want to scare ourselves or let politicians do the scaring for us, why the heck not... what use is another billions or two to hospitals and schools and roads and bridges... let's build more databases and surveillance, let's tell those Arabs we're too smart to be fooled by their pretense to be human or Australians like the rest of us White and tan Aussies.


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## luutzu (22 August 2014)

noco said:


> SAD WORLD WE LIVE IN--BUT THE FACTS DON'T LIE
> This is all factually (and historically) correct - and verifiable.
> 
> In 732 AD the Muslim Army which was moving on Paris
> ...




I didn't know world history only has Muslims waging war of conquest.

Apparently they aren't very good considering that there's only 1 Muslims for 6 people or so in the world; and Arabic nor Islam is not the internation religion or language.

Man, those Han Chinese must've somehow conquered current-day China and divide itself into hundreds of ethnic minority groups; Those Vietnamese must've just taken the Mekong Delta and create a couple new languages to name those cities; The British colonies must all have been empty of inhabitants who now call themselves Indians and Aborigines and Irish and Scottish.

Don't know about American airport security, but two of of the last three times I left Australia, I was "randomly" picked out for a more thorough security checks like analysing my bag for explosives and asking in very slow English what country I am from and where... am.... i ... go... ing.


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## DB008 (22 August 2014)

I have posted this elsewhere, but would like to add this to the thread.


*ASIO 2012-2013 Report to Parliament*

http://www.asio.gov.au/img/files/ASIO-Report-to-Parliament-2012-13.pdf

Page 2, 3 and 4 are interesting.

Basically, there will be a Boston marathon bombing here one day, no matter what resources we throw at it, it can't be stopped.


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## IFocus (22 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> Vietnam. Escaped Communism by boat.
> 
> 
> .




I have had the great pleasure to have worked with a number of Vietnamese boat people and or their children over the years.

With out exception extraordinary people that embrace and bring much to Australia.

Your parents sound much the same


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## Macquack (22 August 2014)

Calliope said:


> As I said on another thread (Abbotts Counter Terrorism Measures) ...its too late already. *Why bother with terrorist attacks when they can do it by manipulating the Labor party*.




Think you can slip in that utter garbage contempt of the Labor party?

Why don't you just come out and say "the Labor party is a 'terrorist' organisation".

How low can you go Calliope?


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## SirRumpole (22 August 2014)

Macquack said:


> Think you can slip in that utter garbage contempt of the Labor party?
> 
> Why don't you just come out and say "the Labor party is a 'terrorist' organisation".
> 
> How low can you go Calliope.




Perhaps Calliope can detail exactly what legislation the Labor party passed in their term of government that benefitted the Muslim community over other groups ?


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## Joe Blow (22 August 2014)

Unfortunately, Calliope will be unable to respond to your queries until this time next month. He has been suspended for a month for trolling and insulting others.

I am actively cracking down on those who personally attack and insult others and who deliberately disrupt the ASF community. There are one or two others who I am currently watching very closely.


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## Julia (22 August 2014)

IFocus said:


> I have had the great pleasure to have worked with a number of Vietnamese boat people and or their children over the years.
> 
> With out exception extraordinary people that embrace and bring much to Australia.
> 
> Your parents sound much the same



Yes, +1.   The Vietnamese, as far as I've ever known, have made a positive contribution to Australia.  I can't recall any suggestion ever of them being vulnerable to anti-Australia radicalisation.


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## DeepState (22 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> I have posted this elsewhere, but would like to add this to the thread.
> 
> 
> *ASIO 2012-2013 Report to Parliament*
> ...




Interesting.  Self-radicalisation is a dominant theme. Both foreign born and locally born have caused harm.

Looking at expenditure.  The following is ASIO's Net Cost of Services:

2011: 378m
2012: 374m
2013: 385m

That's obviously for expenses spanning the full breadth of ASIO activity, not just (anti) terrorism activity.  They do not report by segment, so apportioning this is not possible without other info.  In any case the figure is relatively stable whilst government revenue has grown. If judged unreasonable, perhaps such expenditure should be considered in light of the size of the budget ($363.5bn est). The total expenditure on ASIO approximates that of the miscellaneous expenditure item "Development Support for the UN, Commonwealth and Other Organisations" ($369m in 2013/14). Further, as raised elsewhere, also be considered relative to private capex which was $158,480m for the year to Q1 2014.

Infringement of civil liberties is a fraught area.  But here we are.  Muslims represent 1.5% of Australia's population.  Most of whom are not radicals and significant contributors to the nation and even broader society.  Yet, if a bomb goes off, it will be harder to care about the difference between those who are not radicalised and those who are and bigotry will become widespread. 






...And bigotry is not isolated to the West by any means.  With outcomes in the Middle East pointing to near absolute condemnation of Jews, it is hard to justify separating the Jewish faith from Israel from their perspective. For them, there is no discernible difference whatever the merits of the argument:


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## SirRumpole (23 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Yes, +1.   The Vietnamese, as far as I've ever known, have made a positive contribution to Australia.  I can't recall any suggestion ever of them being vulnerable to anti-Australia radicalisation.




Most migrant groups have been beneficial to our nation because they haven't come here with the baggage of a medieval and repressive religion.


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## chiff (23 August 2014)

I certainly remember when Vietnamese were subject to demonization in Australia.Both during and after the Vietnamese conflict.Inhuman  and unfeeling people they were.
Through understanding comes appreciation.


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## SirRumpole (23 August 2014)

chiff said:


> I certainly remember when Vietnamese were subject to demonization in Australia.Both during and after the Vietnamese conflict.Inhuman  and unfeeling people they were.
> Through understanding comes appreciation.




Too often individuals are labelled with the attributes of their governments. If someone was "inhuman and unfeeling" like the Vietcong then they would have stayed in the country in which they were victorious, instead the people being suppressed fled elsewhere.

Maybe the same applies to current refugees as well...


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## luutzu (23 August 2014)

IFocus said:


> I have had the great pleasure to have worked with a number of Vietnamese boat people and or their children over the years.
> 
> With out exception extraordinary people that embrace and bring much to Australia.
> 
> Your parents sound much the same




Thanks for your help.

For migrants and refugees who were given a chance to start again through Australians generosity, and who were helped by people like yourself when we first arrive with literally nothing... Growing up poor and receiving such  kindness from strangers I think made just about all of us more generous and appreciative of the kind of society that made it possible for good people like yourself to help others, and I think set good examples of the kind of people we want to emulate and contributions we want to make when we're back on our feet. That's not to say that those who grew up privileged don't... 

I went to public schools and though only had one Egyptian as a friend compare to mostly Viet friends, I mingled with Arabs and Whites and Asians and never really ask whether we're different or not, we just look different but we're all alike - try to do weight, pop pimples before heading to school and try to get dates... try is a key word when you have to pop pimples but yea.

So all these new laws and concerns and focus on the Muslim community is very alien to my own experiences. 

Growing up, the only time our family went to a restaurant was the day we all passed our Australian Citizenship interviews. I remember mum was so happy she tries very hard to ignore the fact that we order a drink to go with our $5 bowl of Pho.

I'm pretty sure similar stories will be told by other ethnic minorities, Arabs, Muslims or otherwise.

To marginalise or disenfranchise any minority is not going to bring back the few who could be radicalised; to turn our country into a police state is not going to keep our country safer; to talk of a 100 year war against some 1 or 2 billion people... if that war is serious, it's not going to last 100 years.


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## DeepState (23 August 2014)

The article which kicked off this thread was about protecting Australia against the threat of radical Islam.  A threat which may take as long as 100 years to contain.

This is an excerpt from the original article quoting Peter Leahy:




For me, the following points were key: It is radicals that are the threat; it will not pass if we just wait and try not to provoke them any further; actions are aware of the possibility of inflaming local tensions; the solution must come from the Muslim world; and self-radicalization is a very big threat.

I don't know of a prior circumstance where a culture was regarded as sufficiently dangerous to warrant this level of concern in relation to terrorism.  Could there be something about Islamic beliefs or culture in terms of the use of terror which differs from other cultures which have endured somewhat similar hardships at the hands of US foreign policy?

Let's look at this:

Japan utilized suicide pilots in war as part of its military strategy.  It was forced into an unconditional surrender, had its religion altered following the restructure of its constitution.  It lost 3m lives in WWII, some of it via nuclear bombs dropped on primary civilian populations after the war was clearly decided.  Surely this would create enmity?

Is it ironic that 17% of the population of Hawaii is Japanese?  As at 2010, there were 760k Japanese living in the US.  Yet there is likely no material threat for issues that are still within living memory and could be used to radicalize another generation.

Vietnam saw substantive US involvement from many perspectives.  Approximately 1m Vietnamese lives were lost (the government claims something closer to 3m).  It is likely the dominant historical memory for the older generation who have every reason to despise the US for its part in the conflict.  Yet, there are 1.5m Vietnamese who live in the US, with 600k in California alone.  Despite this size of population on US soil, I am unaware of any credible terrorist threat arising from this population either.

France and Germany have had a long history of interstate warfare. They were on opposing sides in the Franco-Prussian War which saw Bonaparte face off against Bismark.  They were on opposing sides of the two Word Wars.  An enormous amount of hatred must be apparent.  Germany alone took losses of ~9% of its population. Plenty to impact nearly every family in some way.

Greece fought on the side of the allies in WWII and lost ~7% of its population.

Yet, just a few short years after the cessation of hostilities, the ECSC was formed which bound France and Germany (and others) into a customs union which was the forerunner to the EU.  As at 2004, freedom of movement was permitted between EU citizens.  Neither France or Germany are listed as high priorities for terrorist activities in terms of national origin.  In the post GFC period, Greece was bailed out and the largest portion of that came from Germany, in effect.

None of these situations which were outcomes that involved US foreign policy incursions have resulted in material terrorist threats.  Yet Al Qaeda (and its affiliates) is by far the most virulent terrorist organisation:




Al Qaeda is thought to have had its origins in the Soviet incursion into Afghanistan.  This was an incursion which met with strong condemnation from the West.  US President Jimmy Carter ordered an embargo and the US boycotted the Moscow Olympics.  These could not be seen to be against the interests of Al Qaeda at its formation.

Yet the values of Al Qaeda, which are closely aligned with the Wahhabis to the west despite operating separately, include violence against infidels and Muslims who are not sufficiently conservative/orthodox.  They also want US bases out of Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia was a British Protectorate following a deal made with Ibn Saud in the Treaty of Darin (1915).  This was not a forced imposition.  It brought stability between Saudi Arabia and the surround Middle Eastern areas under British protection also.  It defined national borders and provided clarity.  Had the British Protectorate not been in place, conflict would likely have erupted.

The US assumed the protectorate in defacto terms after the British capability to hold them was essentially exhausted after WWII.  Clearly there were strategic interests to mind when the details of an undisclosed agreement/understanding was made between Ibn Saud and Rooseveldt.  This deal was made directly with the leadership.  The discussion also included the state of Israel.

In an FBI documented inventory of terrorism on US soil between 1980 and 2005, three stand out as causing mass casualties:
26/2/93 International Islamic Extremist killed 6 and injured 1042 in NYC
19/4/95 Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 and injured 754 in Oaklahoma
11/9/01 Al Qaeda killed 2972 and injured ~12000 in NYC

There is clearly a Muslim element in the inventory.  Despite all of this, the US attitude towards Muslims is surprisingly moderate and generally improves with familiarity:







My Take:

I think that the political equivalent of Laissez Faire is entirely unrealistic.  Further, a retreat into a multi-polar configuration is destablising to world order and lays the ground for large scale violence.  This is visible through examination of history where wars in regions persist for generations until brought to heal by a strong power which, to some extent and by varying means, imposes order.

There is a virulent strain of radicalization that is housed within the Muslim faith that is not apparent in other circumstances which have more cause to hate the US and others.  However, when countries like Saudi Arabia have a population of Wahhabis that numbers 23%, the scale of the issue becomes apparent.  This is not a minor outlier.  The pool for (further) radicalization is rich.

The US, the west and moderate Muslims would have been a target for radicals no matter what recent history could be revised.  We can debate without conclusion whether the outcome would be better or worse for any given variation.  World events which seemed sensible at the time, favoured the Al Qaeda operatives at their inception, resulted in US bases on Saudi soil with the whole-hearted agreement of its King, who united the country, have led us here. What matters is what do we do from here.

Until a vaccine can be found for the virus of radical Islam, containment would seem a viable course of action.  Laying down of arms does not stop IS from pursuing victims.  There is no absolute, only trade-offs.  A vaccine does have side-effects as it seeks to produce a healthier outcome.  Sensibilities of the Muslim population are bound to be adversely affected by the actions which will become apparent in time.  A government cannot be seen to be doing nothing to a rising perceived threat which captures the public imagination.  Further, the Muslim population would be further marginalized if one of their own perpetrated a mass killing (any killing, particularly of a non Muslim, to be blunt).  Hence, any infringement on civil rights must be seen in this light.  We are all going to bear some of this burden with increased surveillance, for a start.  Some on this thread may have experienced what the US airports were like at Tom Bradley in the year after Sept 11.

The alternative of behaving as if we were in Utopia is not the answer either.  Radicals are searching out soft targets.  Hit an Australian target and just watch how things will change...not necessarily for the better.

In the meantime, I agree with the assessment that a Muslim sourced solution to the issue of radicalization may be the best hope for domestic security.  However, the task is made hard by the proportion of the Muslim population with very strong motivations which are contrary to tolerance relative to the same hoping to soothe these positions.  The task looks very difficult.  Ultimately, we need to find where the balance between radical Islam is versus other parts of the Muslim population who are prepared to balance it, shrink it and keep it contained.

The war Leahy discusses is as much about capturing the common desire for living with tolerance in a cosmopolitan setting as it is about espionage or selective intervention.  There is no realistic change that radical Islam will be eliminated.  The radicalism in the Muslim faith does not appear to be present in other identities who have endured as much sorrow at the hands of US and Western interests.  It could take the concerted efforts of the Australian security apparatus in alignment with moderate Muslims two generations to achieve.  Maybe three.  There, you have your 100 year war. Even then, vigilance will always be needed.  Some problems cannot be solved, only limited.


----------



## luutzu (25 August 2014)

Let me start with a personal experience...

In the mid 80s to 90s, Cabramatta was considered the "drug capital of Australia". Most of the drug problems are blamed on the Vietnamese community, I don't have the statistics, but the Vietnamese that live there also know there's a drug problem within its own community.... a lot yes, the worst in the country? Maybe, either way, it's bad.

You know what my parents and his friends who have young children did? They moved away from Cabramatta. They take their family away from potentially bad and criminal influences.

So why is it hard to imagine that Muslim parents won't try hard to teach and protect their children from such radical extremism within the minority of their community?

You can point to Islam if you want, I don't know. But I can't imagine that people go to Mosques, or to Church or Temples for political, war mongering, world domination purposes. I would imagine that most goes to places of worship to seek spiritual guidance and the like. 

And all religion, Christianity I'm certain, could also be use to justify world domination under Christ - there's the Missionaries in the 18th centuries, the lost sheeps... Growing up, a good Catholic friend of mine took me to Church for a few months, get me to join the Youth Groups and teach me about religion and how to be baptised etc. etc. He didn't do it out of malice, just thought it'd be good for me and others to believe in Christ.

-------

Could be that I'm naive, but I'm sure there are existing laws that permit ASIO and other intelligence/security agencies to go after potential threats from returned jihadists and potential homegrown terrorists and radicals.

No one is suggesting that we're all good and kind and all Australians of all races and cultures would just hold hands and sing around campfires. But to suggests that the war on terror would last 100 years because it take two or three generations to basically breed out radicalism in the Muslim communities is absurd. 

To do that, Australia and other Western democracies must barred all Muslim migrants from entering. The Muslims that are already in the country will slowly be taught to assimilate and join the A Team... haha

So unless you could do that to Muslims in Australia - erase Islam and inter marry Arabs or something... the war on terrorists will last as long as some Muslims see their holy land being soiled and Arab brothers being killed and our gov't is deep in it.

In any ethnic or religious community, in any population you care to choose, there's always some element of criminality, some element of racism and hatred against the state and authorities... It will do us more good to remember that basic fact and design our security policies and operations around that rather than single out one group or another.

With Abbott's chest thumping and rush to send Australian troops or Federal Police into Iraq or the Ukraine, yes, we're more likely to get hated for it by those countries and those people - Arabs or Russians alike.

I'm not sure if Australia would also be sanctioned by Russia if Abbott weren't so gung ho about MH17. I mean get angry, it is a great tragedy that some 37 of our Australians were killed like that... but realistically, I'm sure that Russia or even the Separatists who downed that plane did so by mistake, they didn't set out to shoot a passenger plane and they did not set out to murder Australians on that plane. That's not to excuse them, it's just as leader of a nation, you ought to calm down and approach act of war or murder more rationally.


-----
"If an enemy is forced to defend everywhere, he is weak everywhere"  says Sun Tzu. 

With the powerful Military Industrial Complex, the surveillance and security systems and service industries' increasing power, a gov't agency that maybe find it beneficial to its own job security and reach to theorised ever increasing domestic danger, with government run by politicians who would rather be safe than sorry for a terror act on its watch... we ought to be careful to not rush into judgment and give them a blank cheque to violate more of our civil liberties and erode more of whatever freedom we still have.

If we could just forget about those petty little things call civil liberties and the rights to free speech or worship for ourselves and our fellow citizens... If we focus too much on domestic security, try not to forget real and deadly serious external security threats.

If I'm China or Russia, I'd probably be funding ISIS and the likes... by focusing the citizens and the politicians on those horrible terrorists dressed in black, I as China will finish a few military bases in the South China Sea, a couple more Aircraft Carrier fleets... and by the time I annex the entire Sea where 1/3 of the world's trade must pass through, have bases and making new friends along the way... the once dominant world power is still stuck in the Middle East spending trillions more of money they do not have and have created an ever richer and more politically powerful domestic surveillance industry it cannot hope to cut billions of funding from...

That would be a real tragedy in all this politically convenient war on terror at home and abroad.


BUt I am optimistic that the real intelligent analysts and officers securing our national and domestic interests are more intelligent than a typical politician and know what to do with the funding they do get, by whatever pretext or rationale the PM gives the public.


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## DB008 (25 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> So why is it hard to imagine that Muslim parents won't try hard to teach and protect their children from such radical extremism within the minority of their community?




Because Islam is a religion - totally different to drugs.


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## Wysiwyg (25 August 2014)

That Vice News video gave me a much better understanding of the various reasons behind the movement. Sadly those children are being used to perpetuate the various causes. 

We are different in Australia. 

We don't think like those people. Religion is a choice and religion is passive. We are freer but we have had to fight to maintain our freedom too. We fought in defence of the greater freedom we have today. We were not cowards and we stood tall when required. We bear no grudge. We have no absolute hatred. We don't hate the countries that took many of our forebearers lives and bought pain and suffering to all. We remember that good triumphs over evil.


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## luutzu (25 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Because Islam is a religion - totally different to drugs.




So one to two billions people have been, is, continue to be, drinking the cool-aide of hatred and terror that is Islam?

If Islam is as bad, and if Muslims are as vengeful as you and some would have us believe, Australia, America and all Western countries would be a war zone right now. A real war zone, not a funny made up "war on terror" and homeland security surveillance.


But yea, you should sign up to go start a couple more Crusades if you want dude. Just don't get kill because if you do, our dear PM will just shrug and say "**** happens" like he had on another occasion.

All these little Napoleons sitting behind their desk deciding life and death on others...


----------



## Tisme (27 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> I have posted this elsewhere, but would like to add this to the thread.
> 
> 
> *ASIO 2012-2013 Report to Parliament*
> ...




What like the Sydney Hilton bombing, Russel Street bombing, et al?


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## DB008 (28 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> So one to two billions people have been, is, continue to be, drinking the cool-aide of hatred and terror that is Islam?
> 
> If Islam is as bad, and if Muslims are as vengeful as you and some would have us believe, Australia, America and all Western countries would be a war zone right now. A real war zone, not a funny made up "war on terror" and homeland security surveillance.
> 
> ...




Anyways, back in the real world...



> *Terrorists may lose Norwegian citizenship*
> 
> The government is considering withdrawing Norwegian citizenship from people taking part in terror activities and wars abroad.
> 
> ...


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## luutzu (28 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> Anyways, back in the real world...




Of course you ought to revoke citizenships of people who go and fought for a foreign army or terrorists.
But of course there are exceptions, some armies are more just than others.

In case you miss the point, saying that I'm not sure if an Australian fighting in the Israeli army would be questioned or considered a security threat once he get back to Australia. I can't imagine ASIO or the likes would ask them if they're still going to try and kill Arab-Australians at home or not.

So back to the real world... 

Our democracy is being sold to the Police Industrial Complex right under our noses... look at Ferguson and Thailand... pretty soon you can forget about civil protests or freedom of speech; Pretty soon, you'll need to prove your innocence else be held by Big Brother and have your doors kicked in due to some slight radical thoughts you may have.

But of course these laws and restrictions are intended only for Muslims and them terrorists, I mean Abbott is pushing these laws and give all us non-Muslims a wink that it really is intended for Muslims just he can't say it's for Muslims so he has to say it's for all Australians, wink wink... and we wink back.

welcome to realpolitik... 

we're about to give the green light to invasion of  our privacy, about to give up that pesky 'innocent until proven guilty' legal nonsense... that and a couple billions a year; that and further adventures in the Middle East - because the last time we were there for 10 years, it turn out really well...

But I suppose the Russian will just drink vodka; the Indians will be busy installing toilets in every home; the Chinese will just keep on making cheap knock offs; the largest Muslim country in the world right above us won't mind living as they do and will protect us from any invasion while we marginalise the Muslims at home and bomb Arab Muslims abroad... because you know, terrorists are evil and we will turn over every rock at home to find them and bomb every village for as long as it take... 

If only geo-political power in the world never changes.

Iraq III: the Iraq-Syrian Menace.

Go team!


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## DeepState (28 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> Of course you ought to revoke citizenships of people who go and fought for a foreign army or terrorists.
> But of course there are exceptions, some armies are more just than others.
> 
> In case you miss the point, saying that I'm not sure if an Australian fighting in the Israeli army would be questioned or considered a security threat once he get back to Australia. I can't imagine ASIO or the likes would ask them if they're still going to try and kill Arab-Australians at home or not.




Just wondering

1. How many unarmed Australians has an Israeli military soldier killed?  How many Australians have members of Islamic related terror organisations killed?

2. Would you rather stand unarmed in front of an armed Israeli officer in the dessert as an Australian citizen or would you prefer to stand in front of an IS operative in Iraq?

Are these answers the same?  And what would be your point of equal treatment for asymmetric risk?  Discrimination causing agitation to a group of people who are rampaging through Iraq and Syria who are quite capable of self-radicalizing? Ok.  Let's just back off and watch the region sink into Islamic Fundamentalism whose charters have a blanket article to wipe out infidels, now loaded with oil wealth?  Did I catch your drift?


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## luutzu (29 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> Just wondering
> 
> 1. How many unarmed Australians has an Israeli military soldier killed?  How many Australians have members of Islamic related terror organisations killed?
> 
> ...




You're missing the point. 

The point is, if you're an Australian, you ought not to be fighting, you ought not to join and fight and kill for a foreign army. Full stop.

That if you're an Australian, unless you're enlisted in the Australian Defense Force and then Captain Abbott send you overseas to fight his adventures, you ought not to do any fighting.. and those Australians that does it ought to be their loyalty and security credentials questioned.

To your false assumptions:

1. Depends... If unarmed Australians were in Gaza or the West Bank - doing charity work, work for the UN or just visiting relatives - you know the answer to that; 

Funny story... my wife told me she saw in an interview a kidnapped Australian journalist who said IS or other was going to kill him, saying that he's American; when he said no they say they'll kill him too because he's British... then when he said he's Australian they let him go.

2. I would love to stand in front of Israeli "officers", just i better not play soccer and better not be Arab-looking. We all know what happened to the four boys playing soccer on the beach in Gaza a month back, don't we.

----

Why we must go and defend Christendom against "pure evil" radicals who dare think they could take over the world...

I think more than a few comrades in Beijing and Moscow are rolling on the floor laughing at our modern-day Crusades. 

China/Russia: Yes you young Richard the Lionhearts, you should pivot back to the Middle East and bomb those... infidels?... those  terrorists... for God and country and justice and freedom and democracy; Here's a couple billions ISIS, here's a couple more trillions young Richy.


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## DeepState (29 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> 1. You're missing the point.
> 
> 2. The point is, if you're an Australian, you ought not to be fighting, you ought not to join and fight and kill for a foreign army. Full stop.
> 
> ...




1. Seems to be a lot of that going on.


2. The clipped quote from your response to DB008 included:_ In case you miss the point, saying that I'm not sure if an Australian fighting in the Israeli army would be questioned or considered a security threat once he get back to Australia. I can't imagine ASIO or the likes would ask them if they're still going to try and kill Arab-Australians at home or not._

You did not address this key point which you made and to which I was predominantly responding.  I made no remark on the rights to return after fighting in the war.  It was all about differentiating risk mitigation from Islamic Terror vs other risk sources (you nominated Israeli).


3. What "false" assumptions were made?  No assumptions were stated.  Alternatively, some may have been assumed by yourself.  Please outline them if so, rather than put words in my mouth.


4. The question was not about specific, selective, circumstances.  Your response appears to have, evasively, missed the point.  The question was about total deaths of Australians by Israeli military in comparison to Islamic terror.  What is your specific response to this specific question?  I am not asking for hypothetical scenarios of what could be if an Australian was in this or that situation that may or may not have occurred.  What actually did occur?


5. If this is not a joke, please supply references.  If it is a joke, why was this even added into a specific response related to the issue of death of Australians at the hands of Islamic terror?  


6. Once again, an evasive and unrepresentative exposition of the real threat to Australians.  How may Australians have been killed by Israeli defence personnel in comparison to Australian lives lost at the hands of Islamic terrorists?  In case this is unclear, both responses are numbers and do not require verbiage.


7. Let's say that the west backs out and IS takes over Iraq, Syria and spreads to create a caliphate across the Middle East and into North Africa.  Do you believe that everything will be peaceful in relations to the West?  What about the east?


8. Do you have actual statistics on the cost of targeted air strikes into Iraq?  Estimates, by the Centre for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, for the last 3 weeks are USD 100m.  If it goes for a year at this rate, that adds to $1.7bn.  What proportion of US GDP would this be over the same period?  I'm not sure that the Chinese or Russians would raise the smallest smirk at this, let alone rolling around laughing. Nor could it vaguely be considered as over-reach.  Or is it?  If so, how?


----------



## luutzu (29 August 2014)

DeepState said:


> 1. Seems to be a lot of that going on.




I know, tend to increase with age. Look it up. Bloomberg or Reuters might not do it though, probably try some psychological databases.




DeepState said:


> 2. The clipped quote from your response to DB008 included:_ In case you miss the point, saying that I'm not sure if an Australian fighting in the Israeli army would be questioned or considered a security threat once he get back to Australia. I can't imagine ASIO or the likes would ask them if they're still going to try and kill Arab-Australians at home or not._




First, the Australian Jihadists that's overseas right now, I am sure, goes to join ISIS to fight other Arabs or infidels OVERSEAS. If they want to kill Australians, leaving Australia and going to Iraq/Syria probably isn't the best place to be.

Second, I agree that those who join ISIS etc. are a security threat to Australia. I have never said otherwise.

So if them fighting with ISIS automatically make them a threat to us at home and we thereby automatically rescind their Australian citizenship - no trial, no court, no legal representation; Is it then a double standard to welcome home those Australians who fought in a different foreign army - say Israel or Pakistan. 

Apparently, some foreign armies are OK to join and kill; others not OK at all. Because some armies are evil while others are doing God's work, or something.





DeepState said:


> You did not address this key point which you made and to which I was predominantly responding.  I made no remark on the rights to return after fighting in the war.  It was all about differentiating risk mitigation from Islamic Terror vs other risk sources (you nominated Israeli).




Are there evidence, statistics, that Jihadists fighting overseas have come back and kill Australians at home or plan to commit terrorist act on the not-their-Homeland?

Are we certain, definitely certain, that those who join the IDF or other "good" armies will never continue their act of war on the homeland?

I'm optimistic so I'd like to think that Australian security agencies won't take your kind of risk mitigations.






DeepState said:


> 3. What "false" assumptions were made?  No assumptions were stated.  Alternatively, some may have been assumed by yourself.  Please outline them if so, rather than put words in my mouth.




It was pretty obvious what your assumption was - that the Israeli army won't kill unarmed Australian but ISIS and them terrorists will. 

I guess those 500 dead children, among them the four boys playing soccer on the beach in Gaza... those were either human shield or terrorists.

As replied: that it depends if that Australian is Arab looking or not. 




DeepState said:


> 4. The question was not about specific, selective, circumstances.  Your response appears to have, evasively, missed the point.  The question was about total deaths of Australians by Israeli military in comparison to Islamic terror.  What is your specific response to this specific question?  I am not asking for hypothetical scenarios of what could be if an Australian was in this or that situation that may or may not have occurred.  What actually did occur?




Since Israel has a tendency to only kill fenced-in, mostly unarmed "terrorists" in Gaza, and killing from the comfort of their jets, the answer to how many Australian they've directly killed is probably zero.

So your point being? That since Israel have not kill any Australians but Islamic terrorists have killed Australians [as they have in Bali], it is OK for Australian citizens to join the IDF to kill Arabs but not OK to join ISIS and friends to kill Arabs.

Good thing you didn't go to law school.




DeepState said:


> 5. If this is not a joke, please supply references.  If it is a joke, why was this even added into a specific response related to the issue of death of Australians at the hands of Islamic terror?



I'll ask and if have time search for reference. 
But let assume for a second that that's not true... it is OK that some soldier (friendly of course) can kill but not OK when other evil soldier kill? Point taken.





DeepState said:


> 6. Once again, an evasive and unrepresentative exposition of the real threat to Australians.  How may Australians have been killed by Israeli defence personnel in comparison to Australian lives lost at the hands of Islamic terrorists?  In case this is unclear, both responses are numbers and do not require verbiage.




When or where did I ever say the IDF seek out Australian?
Didn't I say, or imply at least, that it depends?

In a couple of years, maybe you should go and stand in front of the Israeli army in Gaza and see whether Hamas or the IDF take the first shot at you. I'd rather not stand in front of any guns, because as Captain Australia once remarked - seit happens.





DeepState said:


> 7. Let's say that the west backs out and IS takes over Iraq, Syria and spreads to create a caliphate across the Middle East and into North Africa.  Do you believe that everything will be peaceful in relations to the West?  What about the east?




How do you know it won't be peaceful? I'm not saying it will be, am saying I don't know.

You seem to think that since ISIS has on its charter or whatever that it will then take over the world.

I think killing people who might or might not kill you one day in the future... that would be considered war crimes by the international court of justice; that under International Law, preemptive wars would be considered illegal.

Yea, once ISIS take over the ME, it will then build nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers and cross the Indian Ocean, the Atlantic, then onto the Pacific and then the world is theirs. Much like the Mongolian hordes under Genghis Khan.




DeepState said:


> 8. Do you have actual statistics on the cost of targeted air strikes into Iraq?  Estimates, by the Centre for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, for the last 3 weeks are USD 100m.  If it goes for a year at this rate, that adds to $1.7bn.  What proportion of US GDP would this be over the same period?  I'm not sure that the Chinese or Russians would raise the smallest smirk at this, let alone rolling around laughing. Nor could it vaguely be considered as over-reach.  Or is it?  If so, how?




I thought I was pretty clear that you cannot hope to bomb ISIS away. That they are, right now, in Iraq and Syria... in an area bigger than Britain... that to think you could bomb them for any amount of time, under that 1.7Bn/pa projection of yours, they will surrender.

The French couldn't do it in IndoChina, the American couldn't in Vietnam for some 20 years; the Israelis couldn't for some 47 years... bombing couldn't bring peace in Iraq II... but Iraq 3 will be different?

What is that saying? That you can know when the war start but you cannot know when or how it will end?

I just heard Obama saying there's no strategy yet in Iraq/Syria.

Forget about Grand Strategy... there's yet to be a strategy here.

Possible that bombing alone won't do it? Possible that you start out bombing then at some time in the future boots will need to be back on the grounds in the Middle East to "keep the peace"? Is it possible that a few months' worth of bombings could lead to further escalations and ground invasion and before you know it, a decade's gone.

Heck, Afghanistan fell in two weeks; Iraq in 3... look how long we were there after "Mission Accomplished".

*The Cost of IRAQ to US: More than $US2 Trillion *

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/14/us-iraq-war-anniversary-idUSBRE92D0PG20130314


*Grand Strategy*
If we go back to the ME, we'll be fighting three(3) wars: 1/ Russian sanctions and potential escalations; 2/ War on terror at home; 3/ ISIS and potential quagmire.

I saw the headlines that the Russian sanctions against Australia will cost Australian farmers some $500 million this year?

The new data retention initiatives for the war on terror some $680 million budgeted?

The couple dollars for ISIS?

A few hundred millions here and few hundred millions there and pretty soon the rich might have to actually pay higher taxes.

---

China has already stake its claim to some 90% of the South China Sea - the seas some 1/3 of global trade goes through; it is building runways and creating bases on the few rocks there, right now.

Russia is accused of invading the Ukraine just this morning.

If you are either of these two powers and have a bit of brain; wouldn't you somehow like ISIS? Maybe even channel some weapons and intelligence so they could keep the US and its allies busy?

No? I guess only the US are devious enough to do that to the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s.


----------



## luutzu (29 August 2014)

My bad regarding the Australian and terrorist. Didn't hear correctly and thought the guy was kidnapped but turns out he was only a Journalist in Nigeria and said the same thing regarding his encounters with Boko Haram:

from Article:

"During the journey in North-eastern Nigeria, his life was threatened more than once, but his Australian passport saved him.

“When confronted by groups with an AK-47 in my face they'd say, ‘you are American, we have to kill you’,” Davis said.

“When you say, no I’m not American, they think you are British, and say you will still die, but when I said I’m Australian, they said that’s all right. I have no idea why but it’s certainly been helpful.”
The devout Christian managed to smuggle out of the country footage of a handful of schoolgirls who escaped from Boko Haram."


http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/australian-negotiator-politicians-funding-boko-haram/187570/


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## luutzu (29 August 2014)

To get things rolling....

the smell of white phosphorous would probably be a flame by another name, smells just as good, smells like... like victory.


----------



## DeepState (29 August 2014)

*Preamble:* The clipped quote from your response to DB008 included: “In case you miss the point, saying that I'm not sure if an Australian fighting in the Israeli army would be questioned or considered a security threat once he get back to Australia. I can't imagine ASIO or the likes would ask them if they're still going to try and kill Arab-Australians at home or not.”

*LuuTzu:* So if them fighting with ISIS automatically make them a threat to us at home and we thereby automatically rescind their Australian citizenship - no trial, no court, no legal representation; Is it then a double standard to welcome home those Australians who fought in a different foreign army - say Israel or Pakistan. 

Apparently, some foreign armies are OK to join and kill; others not OK at all. Because some armies are evil while others are doing God's work, or something.

*Response:* Or is it that some returned soldiers/militants present more of a threat to Australia than others?  If so, how is that unreasonable?  My original question was only about the return and questioning of inbound travelers to Australia.


*Preamble:* You did not address this key point which you made and to which I was predominantly responding. I made no remark on the rights to return after fighting in the war. It was all about differentiating risk mitigation from Islamic Terror vs other risk sources (you nominated Israeli).

*LuuTzu:*Are there evidence, statistics, that Jihadists fighting overseas have come back and kill Australians at home or plan to commit terrorist act on the not-their-Homeland?

Are we certain, definitely certain, that those who join the IDF or other "good" armies will never continue their act of war on the homeland?

I'm optimistic so I'd like to think that Australian security agencies won't take your kind of risk mitigations.

*Response: *What is the balance of risk?  Jihadists have killed Westerners, have a mandate to do so according to their doctrine, post hatred on social media.  The security agencies you are so optimistic about aren’t so optimistic about the terror threat.  They list it as one of the key risks to national security and the guy who penned the article which started all this off is part of it despite your disagreement of the likely span of an extended series of limited interventions, increased surveillance and other measures to reduce the risk to Australian citizens.


*Preamble:* What "false" assumptions were made? No assumptions were stated. Alternatively, some may have been assumed by yourself. Please outline them if so, rather than put words in my mouth.

*LuuTzu:* It was pretty obvious what your assumption was - that the Israeli army won't kill unarmed Australian but ISIS and them terrorists will. 

I guess those 500 dead children, among them the four boys playing soccer on the beach in Gaza... those were either human shield or terrorists.

As replied: that it depends if that Australian is Arab looking or not. 

*Response: *So, just to be clear.  If you look like an Arab in Australia, you are likely to be killed by an Israeli?  Whereas, if you are a terrorist Jihadist, you are less likely to kill anyone in Australia?  Is that right?


*Preamble:* The question was not about specific, selective, circumstances. Your response appears to have, evasively, missed the point. The question was about total deaths of Australians by Israeli military in comparison to Islamic terror. What is your specific response to this specific question? I am not asking for hypothetical scenarios of what could be if an Australian was in this or that situation that may or may not have occurred. What actually did occur?

*LuuTzu:* Since Israel has a tendency to only kill fenced-in, mostly unarmed "terrorists" in Gaza, and killing from the comfort of their jets, the answer to how many Australian they've directly killed is probably zero.

So your point being? That since Israel have not kill any Australians but Islamic terrorists have killed Australians [as they have in Bali], it is OK for Australian citizens to join the IDF to kill Arabs but not OK to join ISIS and friends to kill Arabs.

Good thing you didn't go to law school.

*Response: *I think you are attempting to be psychic again with my formal qualifications.  My point was, to repeat one more time, which group has shown themselves to be the greater threat to Australia? Which group has killed more Australians?  It wasn’t inviting a response of judgment about whether death by either group is somehow less grotesque.


*Preamble:*  If this is not a joke, please supply references. If it is a joke, why was this even added into a specific response related to the issue of death of Australians at the hands of Islamic terror? 

*LuuTzu:* I'll ask and if have time search for reference. 

*Response:* No probs on the oversight.


*Preamble:* Once again, an evasive and unrepresentative exposition of the real threat to Australians. How may Australians have been killed by Israeli defence personnel in comparison to Australian lives lost at the hands of Islamic terrorists? In case this is unclear, both responses are numbers and do not require verbiage.

*LuuTzu:* When or where did I ever say the IDF seek out Australian?

Didn't I say, or imply at least, that it depends?

In a couple of years, maybe you should go and stand in front of the Israeli army in Gaza and see whether Hamas or the IDF take the first shot at you. I'd rather not stand in front of any guns, because as Captain Australia once remarked - seit happens.

*Response:* You never said it.  I never implied you did say that an IDF would seek out an Australian target.  You must have missed my point or, perhaps, you are evading an inconvenient point.  You made various comments about scenarios where, had an Australian been present in Gaza on a beach playing soccer etc… This did not address the question.  The answer does not require a judgment call. It does not require you to say anything about IDF members seeking out Australians at all, which is why I do not need to assume anything. It requires two numbers.  Approximations will be fine.

In a couple of years, I would much more readily present myself at Army HQ of the IDF than Army HQ (or its equivalent) in Hamas, or IS, or Al Qaeda… .  How about you?  This was the actual question raised earlier, which you have again evaded. It is a simple either or question. How about actually answering it?  However, I’d rather not stand in front of any guns.  Wouldn’t that be the point of national security?  


*Preable:*  Let's say that the west backs out and IS takes over Iraq, Syria and spreads to create a caliphate across the Middle East and into North Africa. Do you believe that everything will be peaceful in relations to the West? What about the east?

*LuuTzu: *How do you know it won't be peaceful? I'm not saying it will be, am saying I don't know.

You seem to think that since ISIS has on its charter or whatever that it will then take over the world.

I think killing people who might or might not kill you one day in the future... that would be considered war crimes by the international court of justice; that under International Law, preemptive wars would be considered illegal.

Yea, once ISIS take over the ME, it will then build nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers and cross the Indian Ocean, the Atlantic, then onto the Pacific and then the world is theirs. Much like the Mongolian hordes under Genghis Khan.

*Response: *No right answer here.  It comes down to where the line is drawn for perceived threat to national lives and treasure.  So, how many lives or countries need to be lost to the advancement of IS before you think that intervention is appropriate, knowing we can never be sure of the counterfactual?


*Preamble:*  Do you have actual statistics on the cost of targeted air strikes into Iraq? Estimates, by the Centre for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, for the last 3 weeks are USD 100m. If it goes for a year at this rate, that adds to $1.7bn. What proportion of US GDP would this be over the same period? I'm not sure that the Chinese or Russians would raise the smallest smirk at this, let alone rolling around laughing. Nor could it vaguely be considered as over-reach. Or is it? If so, how?

*LuuTzu:* I thought I was pretty clear that you cannot hope to bomb ISIS away. That they are, right now, in Iraq and Syria... in an area bigger than Britain... that to think you could bomb them for any amount of time, under that 1.7Bn/pa projection of yours, they will surrender.

The French couldn't do it in IndoChina, the American couldn't in Vietnam for some 20 years; the Israelis couldn't for some 47 years... bombing couldn't bring peace in Iraq II... but Iraq 3 will be different?

What is that saying? That you can know when the war start but you cannot know when or how it will end?

*Response:*  There are no plans to return boots to the ground.  The bombing is to provide air cover to local troops on the ground. This has already been shown to be successful in evacuating Kurds in dire risk of being overrun.  Further, the ambition is not regime change or withstanding a separatist movement covering the size of Vietnam from afar.  The strategic objectives here are vastly different. They should not be raised as comparisons in genuine context.

*LuuTzu:*  I just heard Obama saying there's no strategy yet in Iraq/Syria.

Forget about Grand Strategy... there's yet to be a strategy here.

Possible that bombing alone won't do it? Possible that you start out bombing then at some time in the future boots will need to be back on the grounds in the Middle East to "keep the peace"? Is it possible that a few months' worth of bombings could lead to further escalations and ground invasion and before you know it, a decade's gone.

*Response:* As per your position on uncertainty, no-one can say for certain at this time.

*LuuTzu: * Heck, Afghanistan fell in two weeks; Iraq in 3... look how long we were there after "Mission Accomplished".

The Cost of IRAQ to US: More than $US2 Trillion 

Grand Strategy

If we go back to the ME, we'll be fighting three(3) wars: 1/ Russian sanctions and potential escalations; 2/ War on terror at home; 3/ ISIS and potential quagmire.

I saw the headlines that the Russian sanctions against Australia will cost Australian farmers some $500 million this year?

The new data retention initiatives for the war on terror some $680 million budgeted?

The couple dollars for ISIS?

A few hundred millions here and few hundred millions there and pretty soon the rich might have to actually pay higher taxes.

*Response: *There is a very big difference between toppling a government and rebuilding a nation.  Knocking a house down takes a couple of days.  Try building one.  Once again, the strategic objectives are different.  Neutralise IS.  No need to rebuild it.  No need for regime change.

Russian sanctions are hardly a war.  They are sanctions.  Troops and direct involvement in Ukraine is off the table…despite Australian lives lost in MH17. To count a domestic ‘War on Terror’ as war is akin to calling a ‘War on Obesity’ a war.  It’s about preventing conflict. That’s called defense.  We are not in a hot war with anyone as yet.

Barnaby Joyce has indicated that Australia exports more than $400m a year to Russia.  Russia has now stopped imports of these goods.  However, the government is not subsidising famers because alternative markets are expected to absorb the Russian quota.  In other words, the true impact on Australian farmers is no-where near $400m a year.

The recently announced increase in funding for counter-terrorism  will cost $600m, to be spent over the next four years.  Whilst this partly goes to fund new initiatives, part of it is to make up for reduced funding since 2009.  A sum of $150m a year, part of which is a catch up, is equivalent to a single miscellaneous item in the Federal Budget.

The impacts of what you effervescently describe as financially onerous are actually close to inconsequential on a national perspective. 

 ---

*LuuTzu:* China has already stake its claim to some 90% of the South China Sea - the seas some 1/3 of global trade goes through; it is building runways and creating bases on the few rocks there, right now.
 Russia is accused of invading the Ukraine just this morning.

If you are either of these two powers and have a bit of brain; wouldn't you somehow like ISIS? Maybe even channel some weapons and intelligence so they could keep the US and its allies busy?

No? I guess only the US are devious enough to do that to the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

*Response:* The rise of ISIS is actually a threat to Russia and China.  Russia has a significant Muslim population in which some would see the formation of a caliphate as a call to arms. Foreign fighters are usually disaffected young men (although there are a surprising number of women going along too).  Russia is full of disaffected young men.  It also had a conflict with Afghanistan…the home of Al Qaeda. A flow of fighters could readily seek to secure entry to Russia via Afghanistan…meanwhile Russia is engaged in conflict in Ukraine and a little stretched to handle two conflicts.

China has a province to the North West which is has to be contained.  This is the home of the Uighers, who are predominantly Sunni Muslims.  Pakistan supports Taliban and sheltered Osama Bin Laden.  Pakistan is on the border with China, sharing a common border with Afghanistan.

If they had a little bit of brains, they would be strengthening their borders against IS and not deliberately creating direct blow back on their own soil.  I suspect they are smart enough to understand the damaging prospects of the strategy you propose for them.

The US was in a Cold War with Russia when the Afghan incursion occurred.  It fought a proxy war.  The US did not share a common border with Afghanistan or Russia.  China and Russia share common borders with Al Qaeda zones.  I hope you can appreciate the difference in the Grand Strategy implications of these circumstances.


----------



## bellenuit (29 August 2014)

*UK terrorist threat level raised to 'severe', Theresa May says*

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28986271


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## luutzu (30 August 2014)

*RY Response:* Or is it that some returned soldiers/militants present more of a threat to Australia than others? If so, how is that unreasonable? My original question was only about the return and questioning of inbound travelers to Australia.

-- How do you know ISIS terrorists are more dangerous to Australians than IDF warriors?
Can it be a certainty that Australians fighting for ISIS is dangerous to Australian while those who fought for the IDF won't be a risk at all?

That must be the assumption when it's perfectly OK to automatically cancel passports from one group of soldiers and just ignore another group of nationals fighting for another foreign army.

I remember reading in the SMH that ASIO believe there are some 150 Australians are fighting with ISIS, and an estimated 100-200 or so Australians joining the IDF in the recent Gaza invasion/incursion/operation... That article said something about ASIO not keeping track of IDF's Team Australian warriors.

I hope that's not the case because to me, they're both equally disloyal to Australia, and they are both as dangerous.

You can say stuff like how many Australians did IDF kill vs how many did Islamic... wait, we're talking about ISIS and IDF... how many Australian has ISIS kill? I don't remember any... but convenient to lump them together to make a point if you want to.

Why equally dangerous? Why should the same standard be use to treat both home-grown but foreign fighters?

If a person decides to travel half the globe to take up arms and join a "just" war, knowing full well that in war people will be kill and they are going to be part of that killing.... If the enemy does not present a present danger to them and their family, their country, yet they are willing to go and join the killing... you would expect that a normal, sane, person would at least be informed about the conflict.

ISIS fighters are dangerous and "pure evil"... OK.

The Israeli army is not? The 4th most powerful army in the world fighting against a fenced-in, starved and relatively unarmed group is fighting for survival?

The country where the average income is some $US32,000 per year - a fairly rich country, almost as rich as Australia... with advanced weaponry and resources that comes with being rich and having friends... that rich country is fighting for survival against a "created" people who mostly live under $2 a day?

If a person who look at these and a couple more facts about the conflict, then decide he want to join the oppression and colonizer... that person is either brainwashed, insane or just a psychopath... either way, he is not normal and no one ought to rest easy with the fact that he joined the "good" army and is now back home.

------
*RY Response:* What is the balance of risk? Jihadists have killed Westerners, have a mandate to do so according to their doctrine, post hatred on social media. The security agencies you are so optimistic about aren’t so optimistic about the terror threat. They list it as one of the key risks to national security and the guy who penned the article which started all this off is part of it despite your disagreement of the likely span of an extended series of limited interventions, increased surveillance and other measures to reduce the risk to Australian citizens.

-- I thought that in war, it is "normal" to want to kill your enemies. If you enemies are White people or Catholics or Arabs, you tend to want to kill them whether it's written down or not.

Could be that I didn't read it carefully but that current head of ASIO did say that it is unfair to suggest that the new anti-terrorism laws are directed at Muslims only.

Why 100 years? Why not 200 or 1000 years? Get a bigger budget that way.
I've already answered this stupid assumption before.

I live in a dominantly Muslim community, near i think a large Mosque. I haven't heard any ASIO/AFP raids on terror for the past 10 years... I haven't heard any Australian-based terrorist plots foiled. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention but I don't know of one raid or one plot since Howard's "be alert, not alarm" campaign.


Ever heard of that 1 of the 36 Chinese military strategy: Remove fire from the cauldron.
The pot is boiling over, or so we're made to believe... and the master stroke is to get ready for a 100 year war, not lowering the heat.

Brilliant! Here's another billion or two per year young Jedi. 


------
*RY Response:* So, just to be clear. If you look like an Arab in Australia, you are likely to be killed by an Israeli? Whereas, if you are a terrorist Jihadist, you are less likely to kill anyone in Australia? Is that right?

-- When did I say that? Was referring to Australian standing in Gaza or Syria/Iraq during one of the "operations".

You seem pretty confident that one is safer than the other to be standing around... I'd rather not stand near or make any sudden movement near any of them... But wait, only one could return while the other is already assumed lethal - without trial or such nonsense.


---------
*RY Response:*  I think you are attempting to be psychic again with my formal qualifications. My point was, to repeat one more time, which group has shown themselves to be the greater threat to Australia? Which group has killed more Australians? It wasn’t inviting a response of judgment about whether death by either group is somehow less grotesque

-- Yea, all terrorists are the same.

Hamas = ISIS = [the Indonesian Jamai Islamia?] = Uighurs = Boka Haram = [other Arab bad guys].

So when are we going into Western China? Are we still fired up and ready for China president Xi's call?



-------
*RY Response:* You never said it. I never implied you did say that an IDF would seek out an Australian target. You must have missed my point or, perhaps, you are evading an inconvenient point. You made various comments about scenarios where, had an Australian been present in Gaza on a beach playing soccer etc… This did not address the question. The answer does not require a judgment call. It does not require you to say anything about IDF members seeking out Australians at all, which is why I do not need to assume anything. It requires two numbers. Approximations will be fine.

In a couple of years, I would much more readily present myself at Army HQ of the IDF than Army HQ (or its equivalent) in Hamas, or IS, or Al Qaeda… . How about you? This was the actual question raised earlier, which you have again evaded. It is a simple either or question. How about actually answering it? However, I’d rather not stand in front of any guns. Wouldn’t that be the point of national security? 

-- I wouldn't join either. I'm with Team Australia.

But if I'm a gun for hire, I wouldn't join Hamas at all because they can't pay me and I'd rather not fight with stick and stones; I will not join the IDF either - something about killing people then blame it on them make it ugly; or steal their land and oppress them then cry foul when they try to fight back; something is wrong when an army kill people then it went to trade shows to demonstrate the efficacy of its weapons to other armies by showing videos of dead Palestinians as proof... no amount of money could make me do what the IDF does, i assure you.

- RE: IDF vs ISIS and Australian kill ratio.... Zero on either side as far as I know. I wasn't evading, I've answered it and extend your point with "possible" assumptions and how such idiotic question make no difference. Unless, as I've said, you clump all Arab bad guys as terrorists, all Palestinians as ISIS and Boko Haram or Uighurs or Russians.

--------
*RY Response:* No right answer here. It comes down to where the line is drawn for perceived threat to national lives and treasure. So, how many lives or countries need to be lost to the advancement of IS before you think that intervention is appropriate, knowing we can never be sure of the counterfactual?

-- Why do we need to intervene in Iraq/Syria? We won't join China and their terrorists; I think we've forgotten about bringing those 200 girls back to their family a long time ago... so we don't like ISIS because they took control of areas near "our" oil fields.

So forget about how many lives or country lost before we, the good guys, intervene... It's oil, it's money.

So the answer of our intervention is whenever there's a strategy - as Obama said, there's no strategy yet. 

----------
Response: There are no plans to return boots to the ground. The bombing is to provide air cover to local troops on the ground. This has already been shown to be successful in evacuating Kurds in dire risk of being overrun. Further, the ambition is not regime change or withstanding a separatist movement covering the size of Vietnam from afar. The strategic objectives here are vastly different. They should not be raised as comparisons in genuine context.

-- Yea, we'll bomb them like we did in Libya a couple years back right?
Tell me, is Libya with us or still against us now?

If ISIS is such a threat to world civilisation that we have to bomb them, you think a year or two of bombing follow by drone surveillance and strikes will stop them? 

Maybe it's not true here, but bombing towns and villages, carrying drone strikes that could kill terrorists in front of civilians at any time... that tend not to win hearts and minds.

Ever ask how many more terrorists and radicals has been created around the Arab world during these years or drone strikes by the US in just about every country in the ME and Africa?

----------

Re Russia/Ukraine:

From memory, the Moscow-friendly Ukrainian president/gov't was overthrown by a popular protest/revolution; a more western-friendly gov't was... I wouldn't say installed... ok, elected who happen to be friendly to Europe/US;

Russia then annex Crimea - why I don't know... maybe they have this crazy idea that the US/EU play some part in overthrowing their client state;

Then EU/US sanction against Russia;

Then MH17 and Captain Australia wanted to send armed AFP officers into rebel-held Ukraine etc... then came Russian sanctions against US/EU/Australia;

Then now some 1000 Russian troops is reported invading the Ukraine, opening new fronts I heard.

You're good at projection and forecast... this is a case of tit for tat, not all t1ts or all tats now is it?

So OK, no war with Russia then... just a lost of $400 million in trade with them... but that's not a real lost because we can sell it elsewhere... haha... good one, it's no lost at all that we lost $400 million from trade with Russia since we can sell it to other countries - were we not able to sell to those other countries if it weren't for Russia?

---

You can get into the actual costs of this war on terror if you like, it's not free, and it's not for 1 or 2 years... it's for 100 if i remember right... See the big picture will you.

----------

Yea, ISIS would be a problem to Russia and China if you see all them Muslims as the same.

Wait, you do see them as all the same evil dudes wanting to take on not 2, but all powers of the world.

You really should try and get your money back from that post-grad course on foreign affairs or something.


If China or Russia were to help ISIS, how would that create blowback on them from ISIS?

If i'm China and go to ISIS and offer them money and arms, I tell them I'll support you if you keep the Americans busy and get their focus off of this pivot to Asia... I'd probably also attach to that a condition that the Uighurs are my problem, that China is a friend of ISIS and here's the money and the arms to prove it... 

Will ISIS like me or will try to harm me? 
If they harm me, it won't be until they're done with the US and other powers, by then the South and East China sea would probably be China's already.


I'm sure you know why Britain have to give up its ME empire and retreat after WW2 right? No money, going broke, no army big enough to secure these interests.

What is the US/Aus/EU doing now?

Waging wars in the ME; spending hundreds of millions if not billions per year countering homeland terrorism; waging trade wars with Russia - driving them to trade and enrich an emerging super power; pivoting to Asia to keep that superpower at bay yet have neither the money nor the focus to actually do anything substantive other than a few bases.

Mearsheimer have said that the US adventures in Iraq/Afghanistan has been its biggest blunder since WW2; ex-CIA Michael Scheuer advises the US to get out of the ME... but yea, this time it will be different... this time, we have 24/7 drones - the world's best terrorist-generating tools in the world, according to Chomsky.


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## Julia (30 August 2014)

luutzu, if you're not going to use the built in facility of the Quote Tags
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2737&highlight=Quote+Tags

Could you use italics, bold, or some other form of differentiation which marks your comments as distinct from those you are answering?

I gave up reading your post because it's too confusing who is supposed to have said what and who is now saying what in response.

Simply using the Multiquote and Reply with Quote tags where you can then insert your own remarks into those to which you're replying is a lot simpler for you and for any reader.


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## Julia (30 August 2014)

Recently we are hearing much about the government attempting to stop potential jihadists from leaving Australia to fight in Syria, Iraq et al. 
Then - if they do go - we promise to catch them on re-entry and lock them up.

Wouldn't it be better all round to just let them go, then use whatever mechanism necessary (?cancelling passport) to prevent them bringing their newly acquired skills back to Australia?

I don't understand why we would want to further foment their hatred for Australia by preventing them going off and getting themselves killed.  Their frustration would surely just exacerbate their determination to create harm here.


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## bellenuit (30 August 2014)

*Found The Islamic State Terror Laptop of Doom, Bubonic Plague, Weapons of Mass Destruction*

Buried in a Dell computer captured in Syria are lessons for making bubonic plague bombs and missives on using weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articl..._plague_weapons_of_mass_destruction_exclusive

_The documents found on the laptop of the Tunisian jihadist, meanwhile, leave no room for doubt about the group's deadly ambitions.

"Use small grenades with the virus, and throw them in closed areas like metros, soccer stadiums, or entertainment centers," the 19-page document on biological weapons advises. "Best to do it next to the air-conditioning. It also can be used during suicide operations."_


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## DB008 (31 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Recently we are hearing much about the government attempting to stop potential jihadists from leaving Australia to fight in Syria, Iraq et al.
> Then - if they do go - we promise to catch them on re-entry and lock them up.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better all round to just let them go, then use whatever mechanism necessary (?cancelling passport) to prevent them bringing their newly acquired skills back to Australia?
> ...




I agree 100%. It should be a one way ticket for these jihadists. Let them go, shut the door on them, don't come back.


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## SirRumpole (31 August 2014)

DB008 said:


> I agree 100%. It should be a one way ticket for these jihadists. Let them go, shut the door on them, don't come back.




Would be nice if it could be legally done. If a person was born here , he has Australian citizenship by birthright and it can't be revoked. I'm not sure you can legally prevent them returning to Australia. If they were fighting for the jihadists then they could be locked up, but for how long ?

 If citizenship was granted by application, there is a provision for removing it if it's not in the public interest that they remain a citizen. I suppose they then become stateless, but where do you send them to ? If the country of their birth won't accept them, what happens ?


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## DB008 (31 August 2014)

*Islamic State militants are gang-raping, selling hundreds of Yazidi women inside Iraqi prison: report*



> Women as young as 14-years-old are being held captive inside Mosul’s Badush prison. They're reportedly given a choice: Convert to the Islamic State’s extremist interpretation of Islam or face daily rape. Some of those who convert have been sold off to fighters for as low as $25.




http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/islamic-state-militants-gang-raping-selling-hundreds-women-report-article-1.1921553


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## luutzu (31 August 2014)

Julia said:


> luutzu, if you're not going to use the built in facility of the Quote Tags
> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2737&highlight=Quote+Tags
> 
> Could you use italics, bold, or some other form of differentiation which marks your comments as distinct from those you are answering?
> ...




Thanks, will go back soon and fix it up.


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## luutzu (31 August 2014)

Julia said:


> Recently we are hearing much about the government attempting to stop potential jihadists from leaving Australia to fight in Syria, Iraq et al.
> Then - if they do go - we promise to catch them on re-entry and lock them up.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better all round to just let them go, then use whatever mechanism necessary (?cancelling passport) to prevent them bringing their newly acquired skills back to Australia?
> ...




I think the answer is already in your last paragraph.

Pick them off the plane, get a few headlines; keep them back home and soon release them into our myst in case we the people thought all radicals are already off to Iraq/Syria; No complaint from the public or politicians for more manpower and resources when budget time come around; easier to make a case for war.

There's those Australian drug smugglers - the 9 something - that the AFP followed and knew about. Those nine were arrested in Bali/Indonesia during their transit home to Australia.

I heard someone accused the AFP of tipping the Indonesian off about those nine so they would be arrested overseas, saving the AFP and our tax dollars to have to deal with them when they get to Australia.

Those nine would have receive some years in prison in Aus. but were sentenced to life or death there - but it saved us money and time...

So there's a lot very smart people working in gov't and sometimes it appear like they do stupid things, and those things are really stupid if they are honest and are like us and thinking for the national interests or public safety. Sometimes it appear stupid but is a stroke of genius if you're in their shoes and have their agendas.


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## DeepState (31 August 2014)

luutzu said:


> 1. - RE: IDF vs ISIS and Australian kill ratio.... Zero on either side as far as I know. I wasn't evading, I've answered it and extend your point with "possible" assumptions and how such idiotic question make no difference. Unless, as I've said, you clump all Arab bad guys as terrorists, all Palestinians as ISIS and Boko Haram or Uighurs or Russians.
> 
> 
> 2. So OK, no war with Russia then... just a lost of $400 million in trade with them... but that's not a real lost because we can sell it elsewhere... haha... good one, it's no lost at all that we lost $400 million from trade with Russia since we can sell it to other countries - were we not able to sell to those other countries if it weren't for Russia?
> ...




Hi Luu,

Hope things are good.


1. The original question was:

_How many unarmed Australians has an Israeli military soldier killed? How many Australians have members of Islamic related terror organisations killed?_

Notice how the term 'Islamic terror related organisations' is in the question?  But you answered in relation to ISIS.  That's either an evasion, lack of comprehension of a simple question or missing the point yet again.  Either way, it's pretty idiotic. 



2. Hahahaha....errrr.  Are you still in the warranty period for your economics/commerce/finance degree? Hope you got the extended warranty, sometimes these things take a little whilst to show up as brightly as napalm in the morning.

This from The Australian, y'know, part of Team Australia. Go team!






The stuff has already been sold.  Basic supply and demand.  hahahahaha ahh hahaha.  That was free, but I enjoyed it.  Supply is plentiful and seemingly infinitely elastic.


3. If I need to get a refund on by IR qualifications then, I guess I should also get a refund for my subscription to the Wall Street Journal.  I believe you, with your extensive YouTube experience, ahead of a world top 10 newspaper.    




Here's another thing, this article got published as I was writing about the issue on this thread.  I'm psychic! Or maybe it was obvious to political scientists with a little more than half a brain engaged for one second.


Anyhow, please keep it coming.  This is fun.


----------



## luutzu (1 September 2014)

DeepState said:


> Hi Luu,
> 
> Hope things are good.
> 
> ...




I answered in relation to ISIS because we're talking about ISIS, and as an example of another foreign army, the IDF. But since you want to be literal about it, I'm sure I've said above that it will be zero from the IDF and all others killed in all the terrorists attack since (don't go quoting that line word for word and compare, but I'm pretty sure I've said something similar).

Let me ask you, if a misguided, bigoted Palestinian sympathiser, or a neo-Nazi using Palestinian deaths as an excuse... if they go and beat up or god forbid carry out act of terror because of what they see the IDF does to the people in Gaza... should the IDF and Israel be blame for that act?

In other words, if a blowback, and I am not justifying it, but if killings were done because of something the IDF does... are the IDF blameless?

If you use the same standard, the same line of reasoning as the Israeli has been using, then yea... Israel is to blame - you know, innocent men, women and children being bombed in the thousands and what did Israel say? Hamas started the war, we bomb them and there are collateral damages, all caused by Hamas.

One of the former head of Israel's Shin Bet - its CIA - have said in "The Gatekeepers" an obvious reality of war - that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. He was of course referring to whatever Palestinian terrorists was at the time he realised it.

So while it's convenient for politicians to group all non-state enemies as terrorists, and all terrorists are of course evil and set out to murder all of us... the politicians know better, they know they're lying, and maybe to some extend believe such lies are to their people's interests... we the people ought to know better... to go along with such nonsense is showing ignorant of history, ancient and modern, ignorant of political and military reality. [Yes, I just call you ignorant, ignoramus... but I think you know better and only saying these stuff to annoy me]




DeepState said:


> 2. Hahahaha....errrr.  Are you still in the warranty period for your economics/commerce/finance degree? Hope you got the extended warranty, sometimes these things take a little whilst to show up as brightly as napalm in the morning.
> 
> This from The Australian, y'know, part of Team Australia. Go team!
> 
> ...




hahaha... "The Australian" paper, same with the Wall Street Journal, are Team Murdoch, Team News Ltd... They're good for celebrity gossips and faux news.

Wow, selling to other market in a heartbeat, said a Coalition gov't senator, haha... From a Murdoch paper who is fair and balance, hahaha.

If this is true, what Joyce is saying, shouldn't it make the farmers wonder that if there's an open and ready and easy market beside Russia.. .why then aren't they aware of it, why aren't they already selling into these markets at the same time they sell to Russia; why wait until sanctions to start, in a heartbeat, go to China and elsewhere?

Ohhhh.. they got to sell at a lower price because the Chinese aren't stupid and know about the sanctions and will definitely bargain hard on persistable goods like meat and fruits.

I guess it's easy to set up contacts in China, easy and free to organise logistics... Not sure what compensation will they get from Abbott's heroic deeds.

But sure, sold at the same price, at the same costs... wait, cheaper transport cost since China is much closer than Russia... 

No compensation I hear from a gov't barely in the majority... 

Naaa... I think that micro and macro economic courses serve me pretty well.




DeepState said:


> 3. If I need to get a refund on by IR qualifications then, I guess I should also get a refund for my subscription to the Wall Street Journal.  I believe you, with your extensive YouTube experience, ahead of a world top 10 newspaper.
> 
> View attachment 59235
> 
> ...





Your faith in Uncle Rupert's empire is adorable. Maybe quote Bill O'Reilly and others from Faux News or News of the World or something next time (I think one of them went out of business following some hacking scandals).

Yea, ISIS will inspire and stir up more hatred among groups that were already inspired and already stirred up long before this thing call ISIS ever came about. Might as well say ISIS is a threat to the British Empire because it stir up activism among the American Colonies.

You're not psychic, you're just among the ill-informed who think all terrorist organisations are the same, with the same aim and the same objective - world domination for Allah or something.

Terrorists are the new Communists. Much like North Vietnam was communists and not a national liberation army forced to pick communist allies because Uncle Sam got a few business going on with the French Empire.

Don't know about Georgia and not much about the Caucuses and Russia, but I saw a documentary, again free on YouTube, that China is practically praying for more Uighurs terrorists... more reason to send their military to the region, more reasons to clamp it down, set up bases of operations to secure against terrorists and just happen to also be useful in securing the region's border with Kazakhstan... and it just happen that there's a big oil pipeline running from the Caspian, across Kazakhstan and enter China, delivering a more secure, alternative route/source of energy than the Indian Ocean through South China Seas - seas totally dominated by the Western powers/US.


----------



## DeepState (2 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> I answered in relation to ISIS because we're talking about ISIS, and as an example of another foreign army, the IDF. But since you want to be literal about it, I'm sure I've said above that it will be zero from the IDF and all others killed in all the terrorists attack since (don't go quoting that line word for word and compare, but I'm pretty sure I've said something similar).




I think you reasonably argue that we generally shouldn't profile people and narrowly box them into some label.  We are individuals and we generally like to be seen this way and interact or be judged, if need be, on our own personal merits.  If this is in the vicinity, I agree with you.

However, JI and ISIS are offshoots/relatives of Al Qaeda (even if there is now some internecine rivalry and distancing).  So, these groups, which have caused loss to the US and Australia are related.  Is that random correlation?  Is there a causative association?  Whilst you may attempt to defend a random association, I think that most reviewing this thread would find that highly improbable.  They are related.  This is why I think that total deaths at the hands of the Islamic terror organisations is more relevant than that based only on a relatively new organization in isolation.

These terrorist organisations have killed our citizens.  You nor I want to see anyone hurt in Australia or elsewhere in any way.  Terrorism is one way we may see casualties arise.  We need to prevent it if we can, balancing the sensitivities of the other matters to hand, like adversely impacting the views and feelings of the Muslim population who may feel alienated.  Yet, there is a balance which needs to be struck.  Doing nothing has resulted in harm.

It is judged that screening and surveillance together with intervention will reduce the likelihood of harm on a net basis.  Some people will be upset. Risks will increase in some areas, but be decreased in others.  If you have faith in our intelligence officers, then they should get this judgment roughly right. No-one will ever know.  There is never certainty, not of the type you seem to require for a situation so complex and fluid.






luutzu said:


> Let me ask you, if a misguided, bigoted Palestinian sympathiser, or a neo-Nazi using Palestinian deaths as an excuse... if they go and beat up or god forbid carry out act of terror because of what they see the IDF does to the people in Gaza... should the IDF and Israel be blame for that act?
> 
> In other words, if a blowback, and I am not justifying it, but if killings were done because of something the IDF does... are the IDF blameless?
> 
> ...




Yes, you have raised this perspective.  It is very reasonable.  What the IDF did seemed disproportionate.  They are encroaching on disputed territories and a weaker rival is being crushed with impunity.  Unsurprisingly, the oppressed fight an asymmetric war.  There is no right.  Both kill.  Both maim.  What we are seeing here is power, realism, neo-realism, at play.  Is that the same as saying I condone it?  Of course not.

Your perspective seems to be one of equal treatment for 'equal' crimes. IDF killed.  Hamas killed.  Why differentiate?  Very reasonable.  One person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

This is where I diverge.  Which group is the greater risk to Australia?  Islamic terrorist organisations have tangibly caused harm to Australian nationals.  The IDF has not and this is not a risk that is even vaguely mentioned in the ASIO reports.  Whilst both groups do heinous things in battle, only one group is judged to be likely to do so against Australian interests at home and abroad.

If you are a smoker and have diabetes, you will pay a much higher premium for life insurance.  This is discrimination.  However, it is based on data.  Naturally, any particular individual will have their own specific mortality, but we cannot get to that level, so we group it up using measures and correlations we know about.  

The same thing is happening here.  We cannot guard against everything.  We have to narrow the search to something which the security agencies can actually contend with.  The stats and judgments of our intelligence agencies point to Islamic terror.  That will inevitably group those who are a real risk with those who are not.






luutzu said:


> 1. hahaha... "The Australian" paper, same with the Wall Street Journal, are Team Murdoch, Team News Ltd... They're good for celebrity gossips and faux news.
> 
> Wow, selling to other market in a heartbeat, said a Coalition gov't senator, haha... From a Murdoch paper who is fair and balance, hahaha.
> 
> ...




1. I made a mistake.  My bad.  The clip I pulled from the Australian (a Newscorp company) was actually pulled from the Australian Financial Review (a Fairfax company).  Whoops.  Please don't tell me that Fairfax is a front for Newscorp.

Also the Financial Times (not a Newscorp company) says as follows:




By the way, what sells more newspapers?  Things which make things seem alarming "China spurs ISIS to slaughter US observers" or "China is scared of ISIS and wants to keep things quiet".  In your view, the stuff Murdoch is pumping out is designed to put him out of business.  Is he really that dumb?

Also, Barnaby Joyce's view on easily replaceable markets for Australian commodities was in a news release earlier this month.  Surely you don't think his editorial rights have also been trampled by Rupert?


2. I hope you took a couple of breaths as you typed that out.

On perishable goods...sure there is some beef on its way. That's $158m annual.  You don't have to kill an animal if there is no demand for the meat for a month.  At an extreme let's say 2 months of annual supply is on ships and rots.  A whopping $26m. Dairy is worth $72m in annual exports.  Same deal. $12 million.  This is harder to stop, but the annual exports of Australian dairy amounts to $1,970m. We are talking 4% of total Australian exports. It will find a home.

The other items are hides etc..they don't rot.  Grapes...you don't have to pick them straight away.

Australia's requirement to redirect is tiny on a world market.  If you somehow think that Australia is going to be subject to extortion for a minor redirection of supply, you must be working on some very aggressive assumptions. These do not include displacement of other goods or the fact that there is an auction available now between China and Indonesia, unless you think they collude. In case you are, I'll just write down here that the volume we are talking about redirecting is but a fraction of year to year fluctuations.  In other words, volume changes of this nature happen so routinely, it's not worth raising an eyebrow or risking hypoxia for. 

I'll refrain on further comment regarding your economics.


3. I actually could have sworn you regularly quoted from News of the World.  But it shut in 2011.  The Mirror perhaps?





luutzu said:


> Yea, ISIS will inspire and stir up more hatred among groups that were already inspired and already stirred up long before this thing call ISIS ever came about. Might as well say ISIS is a threat to the British Empire because it stir up activism among the American Colonies.




Well, the threat level for terrorism was just raised in the UK to its second highest level....so maybe the theory does hold.





luutzu said:


> 1. You're not psychic, you're just among the ill-informed who think all terrorist organisations are the same, with the same aim and the same objective - world domination for Allah or something.
> 
> Terrorists are the new Communists. Much like North Vietnam was communists and not a national liberation army forced to pick communist allies because Uncle Sam got a few business going on with the French Empire.
> 
> 2. Don't know about Georgia and not much about the Caucuses and Russia, but I saw a documentary, again free on YouTube, that China is practically praying for more Uighurs terrorists... more reason to send their military to the region, more reasons to clamp it down, set up bases of operations to secure against terrorists and just happen to also be useful in securing the region's border with Kazakhstan... and it just happen that there's a big oil pipeline running from the Caspian, across Kazakhstan and enter China, delivering a more secure, alternative route/source of energy than the Indian Ocean through South China Seas - seas totally dominated by the Western powers/US.




1. Once again, your psychic abilities fail you.  Look at the data. The correlation between prognostication and outcome are zero.  

Have you seen a long list of terrorist organisations that have been active in the US alone?  No-one here could suggest that environmental terrorists are on par with ISIS? Could they? Maybe I'm ill-informed.  I must make a note to watch more YouTube.

Also, on the world domination thing, this was from the welcoming speech from Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi as he reached out for global peace and reconciliation: 




No need to screen for this, I guess, with a decent sized army in motion now prepared to fight asymmetric wars. Nope.  Is there anything like this in the constitution of Israel, beyond being a Jewish state?


2. What stopped China from doing it anyway?  China is renown for human rights shortfalls.  It doesn't really hide them that much.  How many executions, suppression of the Falun Gong...they need context?  Really?

Further, that pipeline is owned by Chinese interests, pipes Russian oil...and China and Russia have massive energy contracts in place and share geopolitical imperatives against the West.  Geopol risk on that pipeline transnationally is low probability. Just look at the geography and military capabilities able to project there.  If any flare ups occur in Northwest China, just how many of the PLA do you think would be required to shut that down in a week?  Population 22m.  No need for context. Everyone understands the politics of energy.  That's ridiculous.


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 September 2014)

What exactly started this jihad movement? What is the reason for this primitive behaviour?


----------



## noco (2 September 2014)

Wysiwyg said:


> What exactly started this jihad movement? What is the reason for this primitive behaviour?




World domination...They want an Islamic world.....you have two choices, you become a Muslim or be eliminated.


----------



## Tisme (2 September 2014)

Wysiwyg said:


> What exactly started this jihad movement? What is the reason for this primitive behaviour?




It is the core signup activity that began with the forced enrolment of the Arabs when the Muslim religion was incorporated. It basically uses fear of punishment and death to recruit non believers and keep the flock in a state of servitude to the bosses of the organisation. 

The Arabs are the core tribe of Islam, whether they like it or not and are not entitled to ply their own skyfairy beliefs, while non Arab/non Muslim residents in an Islamic caliphate once paid Jaziya tribute or tax to enjoy the state's protection and by implication acceptance of their guest status:- Arabs pay a Zakat tax for community services.  Privateers, masquerading as Muslim warriors have brought the Jaziya back to finance their future fund trusts back home in the UK, USA, Oz etc which must be eye watering to the tax dept.  


So the reason for the primitive behaviour is obviously lust for power first, money second,  idle hands and the devil, cohesion of a brotherhood traumatised by religious bondage, social vandalism for vandalism's sake,  and whatever that section of the brain is that lusts for the thrill of the kill versus the mundane. I guess somewhere in the soup are those with a halo belief and hero purpose who really do believe in a book of scribble that appears suspiciously like a mashed version of another crowd control book authored by Abrahamic cousins two thousand years before .


----------



## SirRumpole (2 September 2014)

The religious jihad by IS in Iraq & Syria today is really little different to the nationalist jihad by Germany in 1939-45.

The desire to dominate others and be the "master race" can be motivated by many factors, ; greed, religion, nationalism and simple psychopathy.

While the portion of the human brain that wants power exists, people will find a way of exploiting it.


----------



## Wysiwyg (2 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> So the reason for the primitive behaviour is obviously lust for power first, money second,  idle hands and the devil, cohesion of a brotherhood traumatised by religious bondage, social vandalism for vandalism's sake,  and whatever that section of the brain is that lusts for the thrill of the kill versus the mundane. I guess somewhere in the soup are those with a halo belief and hero purpose who really do believe in a book of scribble that appears suspiciously like a mashed version of another crowd control book authored by Abrahamic cousins two thousand years before .



Worlds apart from modern societies. The nations united should never let the insane cause untold destruction on the civilised world again. Containment is the rational way for the moment. Their cowardice a formidable challenge.


----------



## pixel (2 September 2014)

Wysiwyg said:


> What exactly started this jihad movement? What is the reason for this primitive behaviour?




Lest we forget ...





Hansard, 14 May, 2003


----------



## luutzu (2 September 2014)

DeepState said:


> I think you reasonably argue that we generally shouldn't profile people and narrowly box them into some label.  We are individuals and we generally like to be seen this way and interact or be judged, if need be, on our own personal merits.  If this is in the vicinity, I agree with you.
> 
> However, JI and ISIS are offshoots/relatives of Al Qaeda (even if there is now some internecine rivalry and distancing).  So, these groups, which have caused loss to the US and Australia are related.  Is that random correlation?  Is there a causative association?  Whilst you may attempt to defend a random association, I think that most reviewing this thread would find that highly improbable.  They are related.  This is why I think that total deaths at the hands of the Islamic terror organisations is more relevant than that based only on a relatively new organization in isolation.
> 
> ...




How are various terrorist groups around the world, from the Uighurs in China; Al Qaeda in Afghanistan/Yemen etc.; ISIS in Iraq and Syria... all related or are offshoots of each other?

They may share the same religion, they may be sympathetic to each other's causes, but beyond that, I don't think there's any relationship beside what the established powers label them - terrorists.

You could be right that they are... I haven't read or know the details of each organisation to say otherwise; I just make certain assumptions based on dates they were established, their geography and the likes. 

That and if they are all related, I'd see China or India or Russia joining this new Coalition of the Willing against ISIS - I don't see that happening so maybe that mean they don't see the relation either; don't see the Western military helping China or Russia defeat this common enemy in their homeland.

When there are no coalition against a common enemy, the reason may be that the enemy is not a common one.





DeepState said:


> Yes, you have raised this perspective.  It is very reasonable.  What the IDF did seemed disproportionate.  They are encroaching on disputed territories and a weaker rival is being crushed with impunity.  Unsurprisingly, the oppressed fight an asymmetric war.  There is no right.  Both kill.  Both maim.  What we are seeing here is power, realism, neo-realism, at play.  Is that the same as saying I condone it?  Of course not.
> 
> Your perspective seems to be one of equal treatment for 'equal' crimes. IDF killed.  Hamas killed.  Why differentiate?  Very reasonable.  One person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.
> 
> ...




That's a very simplistic way of looking at citizens who go and wage war for a foreign army. 

Any Australian citizen who join a foreign army ought to be looked at upon their return to Australia.This is not just a question of fairness or a obligatory matter of look-see; it is a serious question of loyalty to our gov't and national security. 

Again, using the IDF as an example, it could be a national fighting for a Pakistani, or Indian or any other foreign state... To use a measure like kill ratio by Islamic terrorists or the IDF or Indian army against Australia is just wrong. And here is where I am optimistic that Australian security agents are more serious than they appear.

What motivate an Australian to go join a foreign army? Doing that ought to immediately raise the question of their loyalty. Just because that foreign army has not kill our nationals... should that person be deemed risk-free based on that fact alone?

What about industrial espionage? What about intelligence gathering for a foreign army/state?
What if, say, India and Pakistan wage a war... some Australian go and join the fight... return home and decided to continue that war and make it personal? 

These are not hypotheticals... again using Israel as an example because I can cite them as examples... Two former directors of AIPAC - a prominent pro-Israeli lobby in the US - have been indicted on suspicion of passing national intelligence/secrets to Israel. Don't think you can find closer allies than Israel/US, yet when one citizen is loyal to a foreign power, be that power an ally or not, national security demand we pay attention and not ignore. Something I am sure ASIO and similar agencies don't need me reminding.





DeepState said:


> 1. I made a mistake.  My bad.  The clip I pulled from the Australian (a Newscorp company) was actually pulled from the Australian Financial Review (a Fairfax company).  Whoops.  Please don't tell me that Fairfax is a front for Newscorp.
> 
> Also the Financial Times (not a Newscorp company) says as follows:
> 
> ...




Is Rupert that dumb... don't know, he did marry that Deng lady so I wouldn't put it pass him. 
And your two titles are nonsense.

I'm sure China say they're nervous and afraid of ISIS... whether they are in reality or not is a different matter.

I thought Joyce is part of the Coalition gov't, in the same camp as Abbott and the Liberals. He doesn't need Rupert to tell him how to defend the gov't.






DeepState said:


> 2. I hope you took a couple of breaths as you typed that out.
> 
> On perishable goods...sure there is some beef on its way. That's $158m annual.  You don't have to kill an animal if there is no demand for the meat for a month.  At an extreme let's say 2 months of annual supply is on ships and rots.  A whopping $26m. Dairy is worth $72m in annual exports.  Same deal. $12 million.  This is harder to stop, but the annual exports of Australian dairy amounts to $1,970m. We are talking 4% of total Australian exports. It will find a home.
> 
> ...




Yea, you best do a chart and show the insignificance of a loss of trade with Russia... That on the grand scheme of things, sanctions resulting in loss of exports worth some $400-$500 million is insignificant because supply and demand means "redirection" costs is not worth mentioning.

While you're on that Ivy tower, maybe also calculate the other insignificant loss from the new round of sanctions Abbott just imposed yesterday.

Tell the Aussie farmers who barely break even in a good year what a few millions or a few weeks worth of time to find new customers, and potentially losing established contracts and contacts in Russia mean. I'm sure they'll agree with your conclusion that it's a drop in the bucket of world trade.

You seem to have access to a lot of data but no information at all.
Start thinking a bit instead of looking at figures and statistical insignificance.
---

As a bonus, I recently read the headlines that with all these trade sanctions going on between Russia and the West, the one country that benefit most is China.

China get to finalised long delayed contracts with Russia, their ties are getting closer in terms of arms and trades; China get to buy things cheaper from the EU/Aus/US that were sold to Russia but now need a new market or established market in China but now greater supply - more supply means lower prices right?

I thought one of the smart thing to do to weaken a dangerous and growing giant is to not push another giant towards its friendship sphere, not to help its economy grow at a faster rate to our lost.






DeepState said:


> 3. I actually could have sworn you regularly quoted from News of the World.  But it shut in 2011.  The Mirror perhaps?
> 
> Well, the threat level for terrorism was just raised in the UK to its second highest level....so maybe the theory does hold.
> 
> ...




Your faith in established power, again, is adorable. 
I got this stock i'm selling, I recommend a buy on it... must be a good buy RY.
Oh, but I don't work for Moody's or the Wall Street Journal so nice try right?

Oh yes... a speech aiming to unite your terrorists why they're fighting and dying, to establish a coalition against the evil empires... that's pure evil wanting to take over the world.

Take over the world with what army? What navy? What air force? What satellite communication, command and control centres? hahaha... 

I want to make a hundred billion dollars too... don't think that's likely though. But we never know i suppose.

You do know what it mean to declare your country a Jewish state right? Look it up.





DeepState said:


> 2. What stopped China from doing it anyway?  China is renown for human rights shortfalls.  It doesn't really hide them that much.  How many executions, suppression of the Falun Gong...they need context?  Really?
> 
> Further, that pipeline is owned by Chinese interests, pipes Russian oil...and China and Russia have massive energy contracts in place and share geopolitical imperatives against the West.  Geopol risk on that pipeline transnationally is low probability. Just look at the geography and military capabilities able to project there.  If any flare ups occur in Northwest China, just how many of the PLA do you think would be required to shut that down in a week?  Population 22m.  No need for context. Everyone understands the politics of energy.  That's ridiculous.




Don't think China need the pretext to excuse itself to western powers... just need it to excuse further annexation and more brutal oppression of the Uighurs and their province... populating it with greater military presence, more and more Han Chinese.

It's impolite to steal and imprison people without cause.

Was referring to the pipeline from the Caspian Sea, through Kazakhstan and onto China completed in 2003 or 2005 and supplying China 15% of its oil needs... Not the recent $400 billion/pa deal with Russia thanks to Ukraine and sanctions. Don't think Russia own Kazakhstan.

---

In Summary... ISIS is like the Third Reich, a threat to both Western Powers, to China, to Russia and all other major powers... just only the Western Powers are joining the coalition while the others are too afraid to do anything.

ISIS is pure evil and we cannot stand idly by and watch preventable genocide, watch refugees not being given asylums... helping the weak, freeing the oppress is what we do, it's what define us as Americans and its deputies... 

I think there's a few million Palestinians asking why the world just sigh for their dead children and find it "unhelpful" that continued occupation and genocide is being committed against them; why some 3 km² of their land are being "procure" just now and no sanctions or outrage are heard by the same sensitive powers at all.

There's a few refugees at our doorsteps who's thinking they should've gone to Iraq instead of Australia for help.


----------



## DeepState (3 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> How are various terrorist groups around the world, from the Uighurs in China; Al Qaeda in Afghanistan/Yemen etc.; ISIS in Iraq and Syria... all related or are offshoots of each other?
> 
> They may share the same religion, they may be sympathetic to each other's causes, but beyond that, I don't think there's any relationship beside what the established powers label them - terrorists.
> 
> ...



ISIS was spawned from Al Qaeda. JI had operational links to Al Qaeda. Hence they are linked.  These are terrorist organisations. I made no claims in relation to direct linkages with other nations or peoples like the Uighurs that may also be Muslims. These share a common faith but are not terrorist organisations.  

On China and Russia not joining the coalition, it might also be that they are concerned that the battle might stretch in the launch of a new season of US sitcoms.  More realistically, they do not perceive a strong enough threat* from these organisations to warrant military support with a strategic rival at this point.  China and Russia have more than half a brain.  They can find the links between Al Qaeda, ISIS and JI on YouTube, or watched it spoken of on CNN. They can draw their relevant strategic conclusions based on this.

•	That is different to saying no threat whatsoever.



luutzu said:


> That's a very simplistic way of looking at citizens who go and wage war for a foreign army.
> 
> Any Australian citizen who join a foreign army ought to be looked at upon their return to Australia.This is not just a question of fairness or a obligatory matter of look-see; it is a serious question of loyalty to our gov't and national security.
> 
> ...



Oh. So it is less simplistic to treat all foreign fighters as the same except for their loyalty to the government (an established and idiotic government, according to you) and national security.  So, they fill in a new visa form on re-entry to Australia which says “Are you a terrorist returning from foreign battle and disloyal to our government and a threat to national security?” If they tick “No”, they go straight through to collecting their bags.   Bad guys will tick the “No”.  Bad and stupid guys will tick “Yes”.


If you do not believe in profiling for the purposes of identifying and differentiating risk, but rather on some magical or otherwise psychic assessment on loyalty and commitment to national security, you are going to need a stack more money than has been allocated to train psychics….who are actually accurate. 


Whoever said that every entrant was risk free?  If it were so, there is no need for customs and border security.  Do you understand that this is about differentiating between ordinary levels of risk and situations of high risk?  Your suggestions and position suggests no concept of this.  A four year old kid from the Singapore whose father did national service despite living in Australia for 10 years and is radicalized to believe that Singapore is the greatest nation on earth and Lee Kwan Yew walks on water is somewhat less risk than a 30 year old jihadist who held up a severed head in Syria.  But, you’d treat both identically at customs because both ticked the “No” box (the kid doing so in black crayon).   Both will be trailed by ASIO to check whether they are disloyal or a security threat requiring further assessment given they are not differentiated at customs?

I am curious as what you think ASIO and customs etc should be doing to protect Australia.  Can you elaborate?

Moving right along….

Espionage is real and pervasive. We do it and we get it done to us.  The security apparatus puts significant effort into defending Australia against this.  The customs and immigration group is also part of the front line in stopping ‘desk officers’ with a bag full of spy equipment from getting through. 

However, to my knowledge, hacker code and surveillance of signals does not actually get on a plane or boat and pass through customs.  This is not to say they are against the national interest.  They are just dealt with differently using techniques that are appropriate for this purpose.

How does the presence of espionage somehow reduce the need to protect against the entry of potential threats?  Does the presence of one set of risks obviate the need to reduce the threat from a different set of risks? Do deaths in Palestine somehow reduce the need to contain conflict in Eastern Ukraine?



luutzu said:


> Is Rupert that dumb... don't know, he did marry that Deng lady so I wouldn't put it pass him.
> And your two titles are nonsense.
> 
> I'm sure China say they're nervous and afraid of ISIS... whether they are in reality or not is a different matter.
> ...



Wendy did pretty well out of the settlement.  However, she punched the guy who was about to throw a pie at Rupert from reflex.  That says something.  My niece has play dates with their daughter and goes to the same school.  Apparently the fathers were very impressed with that and were all wondering if their wives would have put their bodies on the line if the situation were different. 

So, on newspapers as a source of data and information, you stuffed the following into the nonsense file: The Australian, The Australian Financial Review, The Wall Street Journal and The Financial Times.

I’m just wondering which sources of information you think are not nonsense?  I don’t want to spend time reading nonsense when I could be reading and/or watching the stuff that you do which is vastly more useful.

So you are happy to concede that China is at least publicly saying that it is nervous about ISIS, yet poo-poo the newspapers which say as much as liars and nonsense?  What kind of nonsense is this, exactly?

Joyce doesn’t need Rupert to speak for him.  But when a newspaper quotes what Joyce says, they are somehow nonsense according to you and undifferentiated from News of the World whose market and style are, shall we say, somewhat different to that of the Wall Street Journal?  That’s what happens when you don’t differentiate, by the way.  The News of the Word is a newspaper.  The Economist is a newspaper.  NOTW is bad, therefore Economist is bad.  Nonsense.



luutzu said:


> Yea, you best do a chart and show the insignificance of a loss of trade with Russia... That on the grand scheme of things, sanctions resulting in loss of exports worth some $400-$500 million is insignificant because supply and demand means "redirection" costs is not worth mentioning.
> 
> While you're on that Ivy tower, maybe also calculate the other insignificant loss from the new round of sanctions Abbott just imposed yesterday.
> 
> Tell the Aussie farmers who barely break even in a good year what a few millions or a few weeks worth of time to find new customers, and potentially losing established contracts and contacts in Russia mean. I'm sure they'll agree with your conclusion that it's a drop in the bucket of world trade.




Once again, more throw away arguments with no data.  This time about the far less concerning issue of costs than about the sudden loss of the total value of Russian exports on the basis that supply cannot find another home entirely (who is going to buy Russian destined exports when we no-longer sell to Russia, huh…total loss blah blah).  

The biggest M&A transaction in recent times involved the business combination of the Westfield entities.  This was an $18bn transaction.  The fees for corporate advisory were regarded as massive for this transaction.  It was 0.4% of the transaction value.  Supply contracts do not require a multi-lateral agreement on an FTA.

On redirection, the ‘cost’ of redirection on exports to a closer destination like China and Indonesia are rather smaller than for Russia.  Perhaps you might want to get some data on freight rates.  Given what matters is CIF, Australia could readily be able to export the same goods at a higher FOB price than what they received from Russia.

In any case, if you want to argue dismissively about massive losses in economic welfare from this, then do so with facts rather than hand waving if you actually want to be perceived as vaguely credible and not entertainment.   Pull out your text book, or fire up your YouTube, and check out what it means to have your perspective on supply/demand which implies near infinite inelasticity of demand and supply, compare that with the 2nd law of demand and…more importantly…find examples which actually support what you have been saying and which are actually relevant for this example.   They don’t exist, just like psychic powers.

I don’t sit in an ivy tower.  It would be too itchy. I’m curious.  What’s the allegory for Ivory Tower in relation to substantively watching YouTube for information and development of argument?

Given you can’t calculate the impact of sanctions, I’ll lend a hand.  The additional impact is worth about $250m.  Most of this relates to the goods and services for energy.  If you are going to argue that these are perishable or cannot find a home in the world of huge capex as energy resources are depleting and more development is taking place, please let me know and I will order popcorn.

The weapons part is negligible.  Other matters relate to selectively cutting off financing for the most part. I am unaware of a capital raising from a Russian firm in recent times.

On the farmers, yes, I’m sure they would agree on the drop in the bucket facts.  Please let me know if any starve to death.  I find it interesting how your arguments shift from national levels which might require higher tax for the rich etc. and, when found wanting, shift to the level of individual farmers. What next? The cost to grass because cattle is kept for a month more before being processed?



luutzu said:


> You seem to have access to a lot of data but no information at all.
> Start thinking a bit instead of looking at figures and statistical insignificance.




You seem to think without access to actual data beyond hype in isolation or from YouTube documentaries.  I think it is very telling that you would advise this course of action and it explains a great deal about the value of the propositions made.

Should I do as you suggest and just make stuff up without data?  I started to think.  On the upside, I could make stuff up with impunity and feel good about it because the no data standard of thought and debate is regarded as acceptable. Then I realized that this would produce jibber. Coffee is blue, it tastes like orange juice which was destined for Russia and prevents espionage from Israel. But it’s a free world, do as you wish if it works for you.



luutzu said:


> As a bonus, I recently read the headlines that with all these trade sanctions going on between Russia and the West, the one country that benefit most is China.
> 
> China get to finalised long delayed contracts with Russia, their ties are getting closer in terms of arms and trades; China get to buy things cheaper from the EU/Aus/US that were sold to Russia but now need a new market or established market in China but now greater supply - more supply means lower prices right?
> 
> I thought one of the smart thing to do to weaken a dangerous and growing giant is to not push another giant towards its friendship sphere, not to help its economy grow at a faster rate to our lost.




This stuff is proposed in an in-your-face manner and you regard yourself as learned in global politics? 

China does benefit.  No doubt about it at all. So there. You admit it. Hahahaha.  In your face RY. Nothing but net.

Trade-off: Do the lesser evil. The judgment is that the value of the benefit to China is a lesser threat than that from ISIS and Islamic terror.  How might the West react to the loss of influence in Middle East energy, do you think?  If it occurred, how much of a strategic advantage might China get given that Russia produces so much oil and China’s supply is relatively more secure?

Relevance: The Russian economy is smaller than Brazil’s.  What is the value of sanctions?  How much of that is redirected to China?  What is the value to China from the combination of displacing goods purchased at a potentially higher price or expanding demand as a result of these commodities becoming more readily available.  What is this value as a proportion of the total economic size of China?

If you should somehow believe that a cow will be sold to China for 1 cent, then all the best. Given China and Russia are good friends and all, might it be possible that sanctions are given a back channel via purchasing sanctioned goods through China and then funneling these back into Russia? At least in part?  A friend in need is a friend indeed?

What you think about ‘smart things’ is too simplistic and not smart.  The smart thing to do is to improve/defend your strategic position in net terms.  Not just looking at loss alone, without considering gain and all their interactions currently and through time. 



luutzu said:


> Your faith in established power, again, is adorable.
> I got this stock i'm selling, I recommend a buy on it... must be a good buy RY.
> Oh, but I don't work for Moody's or the Wall Street Journal so nice try right?




If you do this, you will be engaging in stock manipulation.  I would say that this is good-bye to LuuTzu.  You would be incarcerated in a prison established and funded by an established power, like the Australian Federal Government.  Moody’s would never hire you, assuming this even represents a change in the prior status.  You would have a lot of time to read the WSJ.

I’m sure your fellow inmates will find you adorable.

Nice try.  On your face.



luutzu said:


> Oh yes... a speech aiming to unite your terrorists why they're fighting and dying, to establish a coalition against the evil empires... that's pure evil wanting to take over the world.
> 
> Take over the world with what army? What navy? What air force? What satellite communication, command and control centres? hahaha...
> 
> I want to make a hundred billion dollars too... don't think that's likely though. But we never know i suppose.




Do you have the slightest notion of what an asymmetric war is? 

The chances of your making billions is effectively zero.  The chances of an asymmetric threat is essentially 100% and has already occurred.  

I know with complete certainty that this line of thought is bogus.



luutzu said:


> You do know what it mean to declare your country a Jewish state right? Look it up.




The question was whether Israel’s constitution had anything in it relating to taking over the world.  Does it?  Please post it if so.  Silence will be regarded as evasion.  So will a response that evades.



luutzu said:


> Don't think China need the pretext to excuse itself to western powers... just need it to excuse further annexation and more brutal oppression of the Uighurs and their province... populating it with greater military presence, more and more Han Chinese.
> 
> It's impolite to steal and imprison people without cause.



If China does not need to be concerned from Western powers, then whose signature is required to exert more control over Xinjiang. Tibet’s?

It is impolite to get your head chopped off and for this to be posted on YouTube too.




luutzu said:


> Was referring to the pipeline from the Caspian Sea, through Kazakhstan and onto China completed in 2003 or 2005 and supplying China 15% of its oil needs... Not the recent $400 billion/pa deal with Russia thanks to Ukraine and sanctions. Don't think Russia own Kazakhstan.




I was also referring to the same pipeline. 

That pipeline runs through Kazakhstan.  It pipes oil into China from the Caspian Sea.  It also funnels Russian oil.
You have argued that China would foment a civil uprising of some sort to push its forces deeper into Xinjiang in order to provide more security for this pipeline.  Something you picked up off YouTube.

On ownership, Russia does not own Kazakhstan.  However, it did not own Crimea either.

China and Russia share a border with Kazakhstan.  If Kazakhstan interrupts flow, it will be owned by Russia ‘in a heartbeat’.  China would be right there in the action as its energy needs are compromised by a few orders of magnitude greater than any benefit from Russian sanctions. If the Uighurs interrupt oil supply (which is the kind of risk you increase if you fund Islamic terrorist organisations when you have others who are sympathetic to this cause amongst your populace) they would experience a hail of pain. 



luutzu said:


> In Summary... ISIS is like the Third Reich, a threat to both Western Powers, to China, to Russia and all other major powers... just only the Western Powers are joining the coalition while the others are too afraid to do anything.
> 
> ISIS is pure evil and we cannot stand idly by and watch preventable genocide, watch refugees not being given asylums... helping the weak, freeing the oppress is what we do, it's what define us as Americans and its deputies...
> 
> ...




Agree wholeheartedly.  Keep the faith.  I really mean that.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Keep doing good, LT.

I may not agree with your arguments.  I do not question your heart.


----------



## DB008 (3 September 2014)

*Danish mosque declares support for Isis*



> An Aarhus mosque that has long been accused of radicalising young members has now come out in support of the militant jihadist organisation Islamic State.
> 
> A spokesman for the Aarhus mosque GrimhÃ¸jmoskeen has openly declared the mosque’s support of the terrorist organisation Islamic State, or Isis.
> 
> ...




http://www.thelocal.dk/20140902/danish-mosque-express-support-for-isis


----------



## DB008 (3 September 2014)

*Missing Libyan Jetliners Raise Fears of Suicide Airliner Attacks on 9/11*



> Islamist militias in Libya took control of nearly a dozen commercial jetliners last month, and western intelligence agencies recently issued a warning that the jets could be used in terrorist attacks across North Africa.
> 
> Intelligence reports of the stolen jetliners were distributed within the U.S. government over the past two weeks and included a warning that one or more of the aircraft could be used in an attack later this month on the date marking the anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks against New York and Washington, said U.S. officials familiar with the reports.
> 
> “There are a number of commercial airliners in Libya that are missing,” said one official. “We found out on September 11 what can happen with hijacked planes.”




http://freebeacon.com/national-security/missing-libyan-jetliners-raise-fears-of-suicide-airliner-attacks-on-911/


----------



## DB008 (3 September 2014)

*Steven Sotloff ‘beheaded’ by Islamic State according to new video*



> THE British executioner who killed US photographer James Foley is believed to have beheaded US journalist Steven Sotloff in a new video released by the Islamic State.
> 
> The video showed a masked militant with a strong London accent apparently beheading a second American journalist and threatening to kill a British captive next.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/steven-sotloff-beheaded-by-islamic-state-according-to-new-video/story-fnh81ifq-1227045741999


----------



## luutzu (4 September 2014)

DeepState said:


> ISIS was spawned from Al Qaeda. JI had operational links to Al Qaeda. Hence they are linked.  These are terrorist organisations. I made no claims in relation to direct linkages with other nations or peoples like the Uighurs that may also be Muslims. These share a common faith but are not terrorist organisations.
> 
> On China and Russia not joining the coalition, it might also be that they are concerned that the battle might stretch in the launch of a new season of US sitcoms.  More realistically, they do not perceive a strong enough threat* from these organisations to warrant military support with a strategic rival at this point.  China and Russia have more than half a brain.  They can find the links between Al Qaeda, ISIS and JI on YouTube, or watched it spoken of on CNN. They can draw their relevant strategic conclusions based on this.
> 
> •	That is different to saying no threat whatsoever.




What's the 'operational links' between JI and AQ? They share the same logistics? Bulk bill their expenses? Serious, I'd like to know.

I'll take your word that ISIS was spawned from AQ, you can define spawned as some Al Qaeda lieutenants either leave AQ and start ISIS or it's a management buyout and rebranding... either way, doesn't that make this so called 100 year war a bit silly?

If we managed to defeat ISIS, then what? No more terrorists? No spawning?

It might help to know why there are terrorists, why people are radicalised and want kill us. But truth is, while most Western civilians might not know - they just agree that terrorists are just pure evil religious nuts - the politicians and policy makers know very well why. But they nonetheless make calculated, 'strategic' decisions on cost-benefits of new or continuing with current policies... since costs rarely affect them, just affect the soldiers and their families, affect the taxpayers and innocent civilians who might get killed or terrorise at home... some warrior politicians are brave enough to turn on the heat and show real leadership; and real leadership, as we all know, are shown by force.

OK, Russia and China, each individually, see ISIS as a threat the same way we do [on a smaller scale]... For argument's sake, let say that that's true... it still mean China/Russia see ISIS as a greater threat to the US/NATO and western powers like Australia more than as a threat to them.

Based on that alone, if you're Russia and want to invade the Ukraine, or at least to create a new buffer state between NATO-allied Ukraine and yourself; if you're supporting a rebellion against the West... does it make more sense to see ISIS as trouble and either ignore or weaken them; or does it make more sense to try and strengthen them so they can bog your powerful enemies down,  at least a little, so your enemies' resources and efforts are not completely focus on you?

Make more sense to open up more fronts right? Then once your objectives in the Ukraine are accomplished, turn and deal with a lesser threat that is ISIS.

Same with China... with the US pivoting to Asia (from the ME)... does it help or harm China more to assist ISIS and force the US to Pivot back, if not completely then a little, back to the ME and also Eastern Europe... Wouldn't that help China's plans for the bases within its 'Nine-Dash Lines' and the oil/gas fields and strategic outposts there?

I can't prove that China or Russia is helping ISIS, so don't ask for proof. I just know what if i were them, that's what I'll be doing... And from a Tom Hanks movie and a documentary -Charlie Wilson's War - that's the kind of calculation that led the CIA to armed and train Bin Laden and his freedom fighters against the USSR (until of course they become Al Qaeda and turn evil)... same reason Rambo was also sent to Afghanistan in Part 3; same reason China and Russia funded the VietCong in Rambo Part 2. 

But I suppose ISIS can't be use as a proxy like other instances.





DeepState said:


> Oh. So it is less simplistic to treat all foreign fighters as the same except for their loyalty to the government (an established and idiotic government, according to you) and national security.  So, they fill in a new visa form on re-entry to Australia which says “Are you a terrorist returning from foreign battle and disloyal to our government and a threat to national security?” If they tick “No”, they go straight through to collecting their bags.   Bad guys will tick the “No”.  Bad and stupid guys will tick “Yes”.
> 
> If you do not believe in profiling for the purposes of identifying and differentiating risk, but rather on some magical or otherwise psychic assessment on loyalty and commitment to national security, you are going to need a stack more money than has been allocated to train psychics….who are actually accurate.
> 
> ...




Since when does loyalty to Australia mean loyalty to Abbott or Labor Party? I think democracy and its principle mean loyalty to Australia is loyalty to Australia, not to one party or another; that and critique of gov't policies does not equate to crimes against the state.

I do believe in profiling... just profile all citizens who went and fought for ANY foreign army. Your profiling seem to only apply to designated terrorists (Islamic terrorists) while others who fought for IDF and other foreign armies but who hasn't kill Australians are all good and ASIO and Australians can just forget about it.

Obviously the Australian Security and Intelligence Organisation should only focus on Jihadists threats while threats from other Australians who has shown to be loyal to another country... naaaa... they can't possibly be a security or intelligence threat to Australia.

And yes, obvious that those who admire Emperor Lee and his Dynasty are good... I mean if Lee tried, he could actually walk on water.





DeepState said:


> Moving right along….
> 
> Espionage is real and pervasive. We do it and we get it done to us.  The security apparatus puts significant effort into defending Australia against this.  The customs and immigration group is also part of the front line in stopping ‘desk officers’ with a bag full of spy equipment from getting through.
> 
> ...




Was referring to Palestine/Gaza with ISIS and Abbott's oration about preventable genocide and helping refugees.
But yea, I read the headline that we're now positioned as a "middle power" and to show how tough we are, we're going against the Russian Bear - directly. 

I thought Theodore Roosevelt advised to "talk quietly but carry a big stick"... Don't think our stick are as big as Russia's, yet we talk very loudly... But what does that peacenik Roosevelt the Elder know about strategy and national security.





DeepState said:


> Wendy did pretty well out of the settlement.  However, she punched the guy who was about to throw a pie at Rupert from reflex.  That says something.  My niece has play dates with their daughter and goes to the same school.  Apparently the fathers were very impressed with that and were all wondering if their wives would have put their bodies on the line if the situation were different.




Bodies on the line, hahaha... I think the guy only had one pie and he already used it. Pretty sure it was just cream, not like the pie was pastries with apple or cherry... if it's that, yea, that would be putting her life on the line... cream only... na.

It wasn't reflex... the human brain actually work pretty fast.

While we're gossiping, to then lead into Uncle Rupert's papers of course, as a young poor child in China, Wendy was sponsored by an American couple to the US... stay in their house, get fed and clothed, went to school... and take the husband. Woah! I guess that's one way to return kindness. How much more can a person give once they give themselves.

Then dumb the husband later after uni and a job for some executive; then on to HK when Uncle Rupert came to do business... he soon divorced his wife for our brave Wendy...   and I think Wendy was cheating on Rupert with Tony Blair... 

Point is, a person is pretty stupid to marry someone with that kind of moral integrity and ruthless ambition. 




DeepState said:


> So, on newspapers as a source of data and information, you stuffed the following into the nonsense file: The Australian, The Australian Financial Review, The Wall Street Journal and The Financial Times.
> 
> I’m just wondering which sources of information you think are not nonsense?  I don’t want to spend time reading nonsense when I could be reading and/or watching the stuff that you do which is vastly more useful.
> 
> ...




The mainstream papers you quoted are good if I want to know the stock price or the weather or a verbatim talking point from the gov't and its spokesman; or maybe the classifieds if eBay shuts down, or maybe what Coles has on special... beyond that it's good for lining by dog's food bowl and maybe the wish to appear sophisticated.

In other words, papers ought to be read for what happen, not WHY it happen.
You quoted Joyce as though what he say is unbiased facts when a little bit of thinking will make one wonder.





DeepState said:


> Once again, more throw away arguments with no data.  This time about the far less concerning issue of costs than about the sudden loss of the total value of Russian exports on the basis that supply cannot find another home entirely (who is going to buy Russian destined exports when we no-longer sell to Russia, huh…total loss blah blah).
> 
> The biggest M&A transaction in recent times involved the business combination of the Westfield entities.  This was an $18bn transaction.  The fees for corporate advisory were regarded as massive for this transaction.  It was 0.4% of the transaction value.  Supply contracts do not require a multi-lateral agreement on an FTA.
> 
> ...




Hahahaha... Not sure why Russia would put sanctions against Australia when doing so doesn't hurt Australia at all. Those silly Ruskies.

Not sure why those silly Aussie farmers would trade with Russia when there's a closer and better market in Asia and elsewhere but Russia.  Yea, I guess they all sell these on eBay and it's just a matter of changing the forwarding address.

You got your databases, look for examples. I think you gotta wait a while for the ABS to get their data together... opinions from interested politicians don't count as data.






DeepState said:


> I don’t sit in an ivy tower.  It would be too itchy. I’m curious.  What’s the allegory for Ivory Tower in relation to substantively watching YouTube for information and development of argument?
> 
> Given you can’t calculate the impact of sanctions, I’ll lend a hand.  The additional impact is worth about $250m.  Most of this relates to the goods and services for energy.  If you are going to argue that these are perishable or cannot find a home in the world of huge capex as energy resources are depleting and more development is taking place, please let me know and I will order popcorn.
> 
> ...




Just curious, what do you think I watch on youtube? Just opinions from some guy's lounge or study? Maybe I watch debates, maybe even lectures from actual universities given by actual professors and experts... Guess those can't compare to newspapers who wouldn't dare question the power that be lest they get sue and bring to court or lose sponsorship and advertising dollars.

But OK, impact of sanctions are negligible.

How do you not see the potential of gov't compensation, OK, "assistance", to the affected farmers and businesses? From memory, every time there's a drought or a flood, there's a new levy to assist the farmers. 

But I'm sure sanctions are just the cost of business; much like losing votes is the cost of policies that lost your constituents no money at all.





DeepState said:


> You seem to think without access to actual data beyond hype in isolation or from YouTube documentaries.  I think it is very telling that you would advise this course of action and it explains a great deal about the value of the propositions made.
> 
> Should I do as you suggest and just make stuff up without data?  I started to think.  On the upside, I could make stuff up with impunity and feel good about it because the no data standard of thought and debate is regarded as acceptable. Then I realized that this would produce jibber. Coffee is blue, it tastes like orange juice which was destined for Russia and prevents espionage from Israel. But it’s a free world, do as you wish if it works for you.
> 
> ...




hahaha... I think what jibberish I've been saying is considered critical thinking; citing historical examples is considered learning from history; 

Yea, you can cite data and measure the exact costs or look at the schedules and see how many days behind or ahead the Chinese bases in South China Sea is... When it come to discussions about strategic interests and national security, I'd rather talk "big picture" nonsense to exact mathematical cost-benefit analysis.

Though I think you'd be ahead if you argue that Australia joining the sanction and economic war non-war with Russia could foreseeably be to our interests because without Russian gas/oil to Europe, more Australian gas/oil projects could get investment from Europe; our agricultural exports could lose a few hundred millions but we could easily made up for that in increased energy/mining exports and investments... by how many cubic metres or tonnage, who knows... but substantial...

That kind of argument is more beneficial than this idiotic data driven, opinion pieces you're suggesting.
Just so you know, I do build databases and appreciate the value of data-based decision making... just I also know when they are useful and when they are useless... especially when it regards an unpredictable future with infinite factors and influences.




DeepState said:


> If you do this, you will be engaging in stock manipulation.  I would say that this is good-bye to LuuTzu.  You would be incarcerated in a prison established and funded by an established power, like the Australian Federal Government.  Moody’s would never hire you, assuming this even represents a change in the prior status.  You would have a lot of time to read the WSJ.
> 
> I’m sure your fellow inmates will find you adorable.
> 
> Nice try.  On your face.



How does gain/loss analysis led to stock manipulation?

I wouldn't be anywhere near... whatever street the Australian Wall Street is... or be anywhere near the masters of the universe to ever be able to manipulate any stock or accuse of insider trading... But thanks for the concern. Though I have one of those face people rather not mess around with, especially when I make my war face... urrgggg, URRGGGGHHH... haha, i mean, Mu ah ah ah ah





DeepState said:


> Do you have the slightest notion of what an asymmetric war is?
> 
> The chances of your making billions is effectively zero.  The chances of an asymmetric threat is essentially 100% and has already occurred.
> 
> I know with complete certainty that this line of thought is bogus.




Asymmetric war... gotta look that up on wikipedia.... yea, now I know.
It's like the French Legionnaires against the terrorists led by Ho Chi Minh; Like the US against the Communists of Ho Chi Minh... the kind of war where the weaker armies does not line themselves up to be blown to pieces but dig tunnels and hide among the people right? 

The kind of war where the more villages you bomb, the more hearts and minds you won over right?

Yea, I think France and the US won that kind of war... I guess if only it had gone on for 100 years the US might have won; though the French did fought it for about 100 years and decided to make a "strategic retreat" after Dien Bien Phu.

Not sure if Mao's Red Army and its long march vs Chiang Kai Shek's American-backed army was another instance of asymmetric war.


It's amazing that you think ISIS pose 100% threat to Australia, yet satisfied that bombing and army friendlies from the air is good enough. I don't think we take that kind of 100% threat seriously enough. 

And come on... the future won't end, yet... so there's a chance I can make billions (US dollars)... never know. 





DeepState said:


> The question was whether Israel’s constitution had anything in it relating to taking over the world.  Does it?  Please post it if so.  Silence will be regarded as evasion.  So will a response that evades.




hahaha... where in the US constitution does it say the US seek to dominate the world? 
Name me one State that has that in its constitution.

Yet... yet the US has some 900 military bases/stations around the world; yet its CIA and apparatus overthrow unfriendly gov't all over the world and put in place dictators it bought and control.

China, Vietnam call itself the "people's" gov't, the people this and that, the party is for the people... Yet... I guess depends on what people some people happen to be to gain benefits from the people's government.

I haven't read Israel's constitution but assume that like all countries in the world, it just doesn't write down its actual foreign policies on it. I think i've answered your adorable understanding of state policies and international relations - that it have to be written down, in the constitution no less.

Now, name me one terrorist organisation, one without established geographical borders, without an effective and organised army, without an air force or a navy... name one instance of such organisation being able to conquer or subjugate the "civilised world" - it doesn't need to have this written on its constitution or charter.

I'm pretty sure Genghis Khan united the various Mongolian tribes and established the Mongolian state on the steppes before his expansion and conquest of China and the Middle East and Russia. 

If ISIS is the new Mongolian empire to be, we better send in the troops and not be lazy about fighting for our existence.

But of course it's smarter to kick sand and shrapnels in their face then prepare for blowbacks everywhere at home.
Wasting billions now and a couple dollars over the next 100 years while serious and lethal threats from nuclear-armed, properly organised and state sanction armies at our door steps are thought to be trading partners rather than real potential rivals. 

I don't think you can make these stuff up when you write a comic story about wars and generals.





DeepState said:


> If China does not need to be concerned from Western powers, then whose signature is required to exert more control over Xinjiang. Tibet’s?
> 
> It is impolite to get your head chopped off and for this to be posted on YouTube too.




You think Abbott or Obama speak of humanity and liberating refugees for China or Russia's consumption? It's to make its people, its own citizens, feel a bit better about their gov't blowing up other human being. It's so they can don't question too much about spending billions on war and foreign "aid" when their school and bridges are collapsing. 

Same with China, I imagine.






DeepState said:


> I was also referring to the same pipeline.
> 
> That pipeline runs through Kazakhstan.  It pipes oil into China from the Caspian Sea.  It also funnels Russian oil.
> You have argued that China would foment a civil uprising of some sort to push its forces deeper into Xinjiang in order to provide more security for this pipeline.  Something you picked up off YouTube.
> ...




Don't know, If i'm China I would go on TV and all media and say ISIS is wrong is bad is evil is a terrorist organisation... but then hope it ties my bigger aversary down while I get on with, one, do what I plan to do while the focus is off of me; two, do what I want to do and wage war on Islamic terror like the trend the western powers are taking on... win win I'd say.


----------



## DB008 (7 September 2014)

Wow, this in Germany.....when will the "Aussie Sharia Law Patrols Start" ???



> *'Sharia controlled zone' in Germany: Group of young Muslims patrolling city streets*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DB008 (8 September 2014)

*British IS fighters 'want to return to UK' after regretting joining jihad in Syria*



> British jihadi fighters have contacted a London university to say they regret travelling to Syria and Iraq to join Islamist fundamentalists.
> 
> Professor Peter Neumann  of King’s College said his department has been in contact with a number of British jihadists who want to come back to the UK but fear being jailed.
> 
> ...


----------



## DB008 (8 September 2014)

*Hate for sale as Muslim flag adopted by jihadists goes to auction at Sydney mosque*



> PREMIER Mike Baird said the Islamic State flag could be banned across NSW.
> 
> His stance follows footage of one of the flags, which is linked to the barbaric terrorist organisation, being auctioned in front of families and young children in Sydney.
> 
> ...


----------



## Julia (8 September 2014)

DB008 said:


> British jihadi fighters have contacted a London university to say they regret travelling to Syria and Iraq to join Islamist fundamentalists.



Well, isn't that nice.  And presumably the Brits will welcome them back, forgiving their being misguided for a little while, so that they can feel free to commit some atrocity on home ground.


----------



## noco (9 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Well, isn't that nice.  And presumably the Brits will welcome them back, forgiving their being misguided for a little while, so that they can feel free to commit some atrocity on home ground.




Perhaps my post #2796  on ASF thread "re : Asylum Immigrants - Green Light" would have been more fitting on this thread.


----------



## chiff (10 September 2014)

Went in and out of kuala Lumpur airport last week-had to do fingerprint recognition on the way in and outTwo index fingers on a screen for recording.Three barrier checks on the way out ,and when through the last one a body pat down.Gently Bentley of course.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Well, isn't that nice.  And presumably the Brits will welcome them back, forgiving their being misguided for a little while, so that they can feel free to commit some atrocity on home ground.




Perhaps, but on the other hand, a lot of intelligence can be obtained from them if they really are disillusioned.


----------



## DB008 (10 September 2014)

*ASIO boss David Irvine warns threat level may rise*



> ASIO boss David Irvine is "very seriously" considering raising the nation's terrorism alert level to "high", meaning that an attack is deemed likely.
> 
> The outgoing spy boss said on Tuesday night that the numbers of Australians involved with extremist groups and the influence of the conflicts in Iraq and Syria meant that the threat was continuing to grow.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/asio-boss-david-irvine-warns-threat-level-may-rise-20140909-10emmh.html#ixzz3CtgYAjJl


----------



## DB008 (12 September 2014)

*Aussie terror alert level raised by ASIO today*

http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/Securityandyourcommunity/Pages/NationalTerrorismPublicAlertSystem.aspx


----------



## DB008 (13 September 2014)

*Pro-ISIS leaflets target London shoppers*



> Brochures urging Muslims to leave Britain and join the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) group were and handed out to Oxford Street shoppers in central London, The Daily Mail reported Wednesday.
> 
> The newspaper said men, who stood in front of posters declaring “the dawn of a new era has begun,” were handing out pro-ISIS brochures.
> 
> ...






*Germany officially bans terror group Isis*



> Germany on Friday officially banned Islamic terror group Isis from any activities in the country, warning that the jihadists, who have captured swathes of Iraq and Syria, also posed a threat to Europe.Germany on Friday officially banned Islamic terror group Isis from any activities in the country, warning that the jihadists, who have captured swathes of Iraq and Syria, also posed a threat to Europe.
> 
> Defence minister Thomas de MaziÃ¨re announced the ban on flying Isis flags, wearing Isis symbols and all Isis activities at a press conference on Friday morning.
> 
> ...





*British Female Jihadists 'Are Running Brothels Full Of Captured Sex Slaves For Islamic State Militants'*



> British female jihadists are running 'brothels' where thousands of Iraqi women are being forced to work after being captured by Islamic State militants, it has been reported.
> 
> Shocking new details have emerged after it was revealed young British girls are behind an ultra-religious all female militia in Raqqa that is brutally punishing "un-Islamic behaviour" in the area, according to the Sunday Telegraph.
> 
> ...


----------



## DB008 (14 September 2014)

*Islamic State (ISIS) video claims to show beheading of British prisoner, threatens America’s allies*



> WORLD leaders have reacted with outrage to a new video from the Islamic State showing the beheading of British aid worker David Haines.
> 
> British Prime Minister David Cameron released a statement condemning the slaying as “an act of pure evil.”
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/world/islamic-state-isis-video-claims-to-show-beheading-of-british-prisoner-threatens-americas-allies/story-fndir2ev-1227057904652


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## DB008 (14 September 2014)

More beheadings to come...

*As many as 20 Westerners are being held hostage by ISIS: report*



> The jihadis who cut off the head of American photographer James Foley are imprisoning up to 20 Westerners, including journalist Steven Sotloff, who has been threatened with decapitation by the same man who killed Foley.
> 
> The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria is holding several aid workers hostage after kidnapping them in Syria. Believed to be among that group are Vanessa Marzullo, 21, and Greta Ramelli, 20, both from Italy, The Telegraph of Britain reported.
> 
> The International Committee of the Red Cross says three of its workers were kidnapped in October and are being held by the terrorists.




http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/20-westerners-held-hostage-article-1.1913480


----------



## Julia (14 September 2014)

Aid workers!   No further evidence is required as to the lack of any moral principle by this terrorist organisation.
They could not be further demeaning their own cause if they tried.


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## noco (15 September 2014)

Terrorism in the making on our home soil......head quarters in West Sydney.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...rocket-launchers/story-fnii5s41-1227058405350


----------



## Julia (15 September 2014)

It seems to me very disingenous of George Brandis to suggest that Australia's becoming actively involved in Iraq and potentially Syria will not increase the risk of attacks here.

I actually agreed with Christine Milne's suggestion that - in participating in such involvement - we are succumbing to the goading of ISIS with their internet beheadings etc.

But at the same time, the government has a sound point in believing we need to play our part in attempting to stop the spread of this fanatical behaviour.

Seems like a no win situation whatever Australia were to do.   
Any thoughts from others?


----------



## noco (15 September 2014)

Julia said:


> It seems to me very disingenous of George Brandis to suggest that Australia's becoming actively involved in Iraq and potentially Syria will not increase the risk of attacks here.
> 
> I actually agreed with Christine Milne's suggestion that - in participating in such involvement - we are succumbing to the goading of ISIS with their internet beheadings etc.
> 
> ...





Well Christine Milne would say that because of her ideology......she is against Israel for a start.

She was more than happy to let the flow of Muslims in Australia and I always said that if there were 1 in a 100 of those who were terrorist, that would one too many and by gee we are seeing it now.

It is better to counter ISIL on foreign grounds than to wait for them to get too bigger foot hold in Australia.
This barbaric lot must be stopped or curtailed at all costs and it is good to see so many Arab states joining in the coalition.


----------



## DB008 (18 September 2014)

Crisis Averted

*Anti-terror operation in Sydney and Brisbane 'thwarted' beheading plot*



> Police say a large-scale anti-terrorism raid in Sydney this morning has foiled a plot to "commit violent acts" in Australia, including a plan to behead a member of the public.
> 
> More than 800 officers launched the raids as part of Operation Appleby in suburbs across Sydney's west and north-west, with a further 70 police involved in raids on properties in Brisbane's south.
> 
> Police said 15 people had been detained in Sydney as part of the operation between NSW officers, the Australian Federal Police and ASIO.





Religion of Peace hey?


----------



## Julia (18 September 2014)

DB, might be good to also post the above on the "Religion is Crazy" thread where there is some (very limited) discussion of this.


----------



## noco (19 September 2014)

Those sleeping logs among the moderate "peaceful" Muslims are coming to life...their feathers have been ruffled with the latest round up of terror suspects in Brisbane and Sydney and the remnants are gathering to fight back....The Muslim leader is already demanding that all Muslims in Australia should stand together and demonstrate their dislike for the events of yesterday.....If there are some radicals still on the lose out there, they won't need a second invitation to carry out an attack on Parliament house or some MP.

I say round them all up and ship them back to where they came from....if we don't take some action now it will be too late...Gillard will be laughing her head off after allowing 50,000 to enter 2008/2013...her modus operandi was to create dissension and division in our community. 

I have been harping on this for the past couple of years now, Islam want world domination and they will do it with fear, intimidation and hate for Christians and infidels. 

Call me a bigot...call me what you like....all I can say is I am sick and tired of Islam...full stop.




https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/25052738/parliament-terror-attack-fears/


----------



## Tisme (19 September 2014)

I'm guessing all those xenophobic wannabe lairds in the cheap seats still cling to the glory days of the last LNP govt and their tribal elder's words, ‘I certainly don’t want people of that type in Australia’  ala John Howard. 

Apparently under Abbott's watch the number of Muslim arrivals will begin to increase from 400k to 700k by 2030. Should we be asking ourselves why the Abbott govt is increasing the intake? 

It's obvious from the following data that the major terrorist nest threatening our fair shores is in a little place in the Pacific called Australia ... damn you Australia.


The following lists the countries of origin of Muslim people in Australia:
*Australia: 36%*
Lebanon: 10%
Turkey: 8.5%
Bosnia-Herzegovina: 4.0%
Afghanistan: 3.5%
Pakistan: 3.2%
Indonesia: 2.9%
Iraq: 2.8%
Bangladesh: 2.7%
Iran: 2.3%
Fiji: 2.0%




2012–13 offshore visa grants by top ten countries of birth Countries Number of visas granted 
Iraq 4064 
Afghanistan 2431 
Myanmar/Burma 2352 
Bhutan 1023 
Congo (DRC) 489 
Iran 471 
Somalia 396 
Sudan 319 
Eritrea 185 
Ethiopia 182 
Other 603 
Total 12 515


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## noco (19 September 2014)

Abbott has a dilemma on his hands.......He wants to be hard on radical Muslims but soft on the "moderate peaceful" Muslims....I believe he would very much like the "moderate peaceful" Muslims to condemn the radicals who are intent on spreading fear in out community, but it is not happening....Instead they are organizing protest rallies and threats of terror on Parliament House and MPs.

The Muslims community should be given the ultimatum.

Are you with us or against in our way of life?.....if you are with us then accept our way of life....if you are against us then go back to where Islam is practiced in your home country,

Are you prepared to accept our laws and government constitution or do you want your own Sharia law?...If you accept out laws of the land, then join us.....if you want Sharia law then go back to your home country and practice there. 

I am tired of Islam in the way they are upsetting our country and the rest of the world.....I am sick and tired of hearing about the cost to the taxpayer of trying to combat radical Muslims here and overseas....I mean what was the cost to engage 600 police to round up 15 radical Muslims......what is the cost to the nation on taxpayers money being spent on humanitarian aid in Iraq alone....Costs we really cannot afford.

Do we see countries like Russia, China, Japan, Indonesia, India or any of the South American countries becoming involved. 



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...7061904484?sv=e6191c83c21453559738d8671893b36


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## orr (19 September 2014)

noco said:


> ...I mean what was the cost to engage 600 police to round up 15 radical Muslims......




'Nothing like a Short  victorious war to stem the tide of revolution' so said Vyacheslav von Plehve, the Russian Minister for the Interior with regard the Russo-Japanese War.

So what cost?  Priceless........... as long as the war goes well.


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## Tisme (19 September 2014)

noco said:


> I...I mean what was the cost to engage 600 police to round up 15 radical Muslims......what is the cost to the nation




I would put that @ A-B=C

where A = revenue from traffic fines and B = 0

so we win twice!!!; the bad guys get a hiding and Joe public gets a retrieve from travelling oppression.

Of course the cops get paid no matter what they are engaged in.


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## Craton (19 September 2014)

You know, I wonder what would happen if the whole world suddenly become what the extremists demanded of it. Who would they blow up, kill, main and torture then?

Yeah, yeah, silly question I know. The answer is simple. The draconian measures would become even more extreme to the point that even the slightest indiscretion would result in death. That's where the problem lies, the extremists don't know where, when or how to stop. It's a self perpetuating frenzy and as far as I'm concerned one that the world has no room for.

I must say I'm appalled that our Muslim brothers and sisters say very little against ISIL and the like. If they do, our media is not covering it. Or is it the case of if our cousins do speak out, they will simply be seen as siding with the West and hence, become targets as well. Whatever, more needs to be heard and done from our Muslim cousins in denouncing such extremism.

We all know the 100 year Jihad started a long, long time ago and while the extremists have no tolerance for the Infidels, it will rage on forever more. The best we can do is to contain any outbreak and at any cost because the alternative is not an alternative at all.


----------



## Tisme (19 September 2014)

Craton said:


> I must say I'm appalled that our Muslim brothers and sisters say very little against ISIL and the like. If they do, our media is not covering it. Or is it the case of if our cousins do speak out, they will simply be seen as siding with the West and hence, become targets as well. Whatever, more needs to be heard and done from our Muslim cousins in denouncing such extremism.




I think that indicates why their origins are always commanded by brutal dictators. The argument would be that the majority are pigeons because they do not practice hate and malice and with any tribe a few will exploit that for gain. 

I don't think taking sides comes into it, the inner conflict is to reconcile a primitive pervasive religious doctrine while living in a society of plenty that has a stubborn aversion to the church interfering with governance of law and order and freedoms of association. The laws of Islam are quite well structured, they just don't have an independent judiciary, backed up by a parliament and ultimately the defence forces, to handle the judgements.


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## noco (19 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> I would put that @ A-B=C
> 
> where A = revenue from traffic fines and B = 0
> 
> ...




I think it should be A - M = P

Where A = Australia
M = Muslim
P = Peace


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## Craton (19 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> I think that indicates why their origins are always commanded by brutal dictators. The argument would be that the majority are pigeons because they do not practice hate and malice and with any tribe a few will exploit that for gain.
> 
> I don't think taking sides comes into it, the inner conflict is to reconcile a primitive pervasive religious doctrine while living in a society of plenty that has a stubborn aversion to the church interfering with governance of law and order and freedoms of association. The laws of Islam are quite well structured, they just don't have an independent judiciary, backed up by a parliament and ultimately the defence forces, to handle the judgements.




Thanks for the comments coz if I remember correctly, you have some insight into this.

I also don't think it comes to taking sides (us v them) per se but more so calling out the injustice/barbarism of the extremists. If Islam is well structured then surely the extremists can't hide behind the dogma even without "an independent judiciary, backed up by a parliament and ultimately the defence forces, to handle the judgements"?


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## noco (19 September 2014)

So 200 Muslims demonstrate on the streets in protest of the police raids and the ultimate arrests.

It is pretty obvious those 200 condone terrorism.....the sleeping logs are awake. 


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-unjust-policing/story-fnihslxi-1227062988666


----------



## Craton (19 September 2014)

noco said:


> So 200 Muslims demonstrate on the streets in protest of the police raids and the ultimate arrests.
> 
> It is pretty obvious those 200 condone terrorism.....the sleeping logs are awake.
> 
> ...




Nothing new there noco.
Even within Oz we have our own Greens leader protesting we shouldn't be doing this and that in regards to the ISIL threat.


----------



## Chris45 (19 September 2014)

An interesting interview with terrorism expert Sidney Jones, Director of the Institute for Policy Analysis of Conflict last night on Lateline:   http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2014/s4090677.htm

Apparently what is motivating ISIS/ISIL/whatever, is the Islamic version of Armageddon.

_TONY JONES: Now what is driving the move to jihadists to go to Syria? What's the philosophy behind it, if you take my meaning?

SIDNEY JONES: I think there are a couple of different things. In the beginning, in late 2013, it was a sense that this was the place where there had been various prophecies that the final battle between good and evil would be fought, so that was a critical driver. There was also a sense that this was an area where more Muslims were being massacred than any other part of the world, so it was a humanitarian obligation to go to Syria. But then, as ISIS began to develop and began to talk about the caliphate, that actually gave a real resonance in Indonesia about the restoration of a Muslim government that everybody had hoped and dreamed of, and the victories in June in Iraq gave it a momentum that this wasn't just talk about a caliphate, they were actually controlling territory and resources. So all of those factors have combined to make Syria a real attraction.

TONY JONES: Now these prophecies you mentioned before, prophecies by Mohammed, about what would happen in Sham, which is, I guess in today's terms, Greater Syria, are kind of end-of-time prophecies and they do sort of fit into the kind of death cult aspect of Islamic State as well, don't they?

SIDNEY JONES: Well it's certainly a notion that the Islamic version of Armageddon will take place there at a time when the Islamic Antichrist will appear and it will be the forces of Islam versus evil fighting for final victory and Islam will be victorious. So, I think it's not just for Indonesians, it's for many Muslims in many different parts of the world that Sham, or Greater Syria, has that kind of appeal.

TONY JONES: Now your report also mentions a book, The Two-Arm Strategy, which I guess is an English translation, which has become a runaway bestseller in Indonesia among extremists, among jihadis in particular. What is this book? What is it purporting?

SIDNEY JONES: Well, I think the reason this book became so popular is because it suggested that there would first be a period of dictators, then there would be an overthrow of those dictators that would proceed the - this final battle. So the Arab Spring fit into these prophecies and the two-arm strategies was effectively about taking advantage of the overthrow of the dictators to establish the caliphate._


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## SirRumpole (19 September 2014)

> that actually gave a real resonance in Indonesia about the restoration of a Muslim government that everybody had hoped and dreamed of,




Who is "everbody" in this context ? Everybody in Indonesia ?

I doubt it. I think most Indonesians are happy with their relatively secular democracy without the likes of ISIL coming in.


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## Chris45 (19 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I think most Indonesians are happy with their relatively secular democracy without the likes of ISIL coming in.




_All that is necessary for the triumph of evil_ (ie ISIL) _is that good men_ (ie secular muslims) _do nothing._

They take to the streets in droves over cartoons, arrests, etc. but are very quiet over the actions of the murderous extremists. Now it's starting to make sense why.


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## noco (19 September 2014)

Chris45 said:


> _All that is necessary for the triumph of evil_ (ie ISIL) _is that good men_ (ie secular muslims) _do nothing._
> 
> They take to the streets in droves over cartoons, arrests, etc. but are very quiet over the actions of the murderous extremists. Now it's starting to make sense why.




*INTIMIDATION AND FEAR.*

The "peaceful moderates" are frighten to speak out and condemn the radicals and street demonstrations for fear of their lives.


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## Chris45 (19 September 2014)

noco said:


> *INTIMIDATION AND FEAR.*
> 
> The "peaceful moderates" are frighten to speak out and condemn the radicals and street demonstrations for fear of their lives.




Yep! Intimidation and fear of the murderous extremists who believe that the Arab Spring signals that the prophecies of their Mohammed are coming true, and so their Islamic Antichrist will soon appear in this Islamic version of Armageddon and lead them to victory over the evil infidels (that's the rest of us) so they can rule the world, or what's left of it, and create their vision of paradise on Earth, Taliban style.

I bet even the "peaceful moderates" believe this, which is another reason why they don't speak out.

And we're being forced by our stupid socialists to sit back and allow them to migrate/seek refuge here, because we're a "compassionate and tolerant multicultural society". They're out-reproducing us by a factor of 4 or 5 and their numbers are growing rapidly.

If the crazy extremists get their hands on nuclear weapons, ... God help us!!!


----------



## dutchie (20 September 2014)

University of NSW strategic expert Alan Dupont:


_I think that for some time most of our elites have failed to understand what we are confronting. This is not some terrorist group attempting what terrorists usually try to do. *This is part of a global struggle between the forces of fundamentalism and the forces of tolerance and cosmopolitanism.* It is a contest of ideas. It is a generational struggle like the Cold War. *This conflict is only going to get worse.* We will be fighting this for another 20 years. 
_

(my bolds)


Our first weapon, as a minimum,  to fight this war is to stop all muslim immigration, starting today.


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## noco (20 September 2014)

dutchie said:


> University of NSW strategic expert Alan Dupont:
> 
> 
> _I think that for some time most of our elites have failed to understand what we are confronting. This is not some terrorist group attempting what terrorists usually try to do. *This is part of a global struggle between the forces of fundamentalism and the forces of tolerance and cosmopolitanism.* It is a contest of ideas. It is a generational struggle like the Cold War. *This conflict is only going to get worse.* We will be fighting this for another 20 years.
> ...




+1...I fully agree....Rudd/.Gillard let in 50,000 in just 5 years.

We now have 500,000 living in Australia and in my mind that is 500,000 too many.

Most of them came here legally or were born here  and we were good enough to give them freedom of the country, but unfortunately we did not spell out what we expected of them......we expected them  to assimilate and not congregate in their own communities......we expected to abide by our laws and not their own Sharia law.

I have been saying for a long time, moderate Muslims are controllable in small but once they increase their numbers you will see them starting to show some muscle......accusing us of not upholding their rights and if we speak out against their behavior, we are racists and bigots....their demonstration this week is living proof of what is to come.

They have been infiltrating into the Western World for years and their sole aim is for world domination and they will do it with intimidation and fear and that is plain to see by all....They give Christians and infidels two choices, convert to Islam or be killed.

It will happen one day, kill or be killed.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...als-police-claim/story-fnihsrf2-1227064642900


----------



## Craton (20 September 2014)

noco said:


> +1...I fully agree....Rudd/.Gillard let in 50,000 in just 5 years.
> 
> We now have 500,000 living in Australia and in my mind that is 500,000 too many.
> 
> ...




Unfortunately I saw this happening when living in Sydney between '81/91. Living in Belmore just around the corner from Lakemba Police Station and when walking down the main drag of Lakemba; seeing the burqa and the suspicious eyes of the males, me and my family felt very uncomfortable. I tried to dismiss the feeling but I've come to learn to trust my gut instinct. Events since then have proved I had cause to feel unnerved and uneasy.

Seeing mosques being built I thought, OK, OK, freedom of religion and all. Our governing bodies must know what their doing. Surely?

When our law makers recognized the Church of Scientology as a religion I realized my error and made me think otherwise. Hence, I totally agree that our authorities have not taken the threat to our way of life from Islam seriously enough in the beginning. Now that they have, I hope it isn't too late because the only alternative is to kill, or be killed.

Perhaps I'm a little biased but as a first generation Aussie, I'm am very patriotic. I love this sunburnt land and any threat to our lucky country is a threat to me, my family, my friends and my way of life so any threat, I take very, very seriously indeed. Yes, to the point where I'd put my life on the line!

FWIW and speaking of a 100yr war. The Battle of Broken Hill approaches the century of the only act of hostility on Australian soil during WWI.

Extract from here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Broken_Hill



> The Battle of Broken Hill was a fatal incident which took place near Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia on 1 January 1915. Two men shot dead four people and wounded seven more, before being killed by police and military officers. While the attack was politically and religiously inspired, as declared by the perpetrators in notes, the men were not members of any sanctioned armed force and the attacks were criminal. The two men were later identified as being Moslems from the British colony of India, modern day Pakistan (some sources incorrectly identify them as Turkish).
> 
> The assailants
> The attackers were both former camel-drivers working at Broken Hill. They were Badsha Mahommed Gool (born c. 1874[3]), an ice-cream vendor, and Mullah Abdullah (born c. 1854[4]), a local imam and halal butcher.
> ...


----------



## noco (20 September 2014)

How the Arabs have tried to destroy Israel since 1946 and are continuing to this day.



Explained simply and impartially 

 This issue bought to light at last. And worth sending on!

http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html#.U9egVdq9KSP

This is the problem indeed!
The problem is within the Muslim faith.
Islam is a religion of HATE, not peace.
Their notion of peace translates to our notion of subjugation or submission by force.

THIS is why the middle-east peace process never gets anywhere.
We must NEVER trust Islam.
We must never cease loving muslims out of their faith.
If we attack hatefully or respond weakly (politically correct) this fulfils their religions view of us,
and encourages them to hate and attack us.
We need to be strong in love and the rule of our moral law. 
(They don’t have moral law anything like ours.  No 10 Commandments, no beatitudes, no “do to others as you would have them do to you.”)


----------



## luutzu (20 September 2014)

Now that we're all thoroughly scared, music please....




I think with the exception of Battlefield:LA, we all lost these wars.


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## luutzu (20 September 2014)

noco said:


> How the Arabs have tried to destroy Israel since 1946 and are continuing to this day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Come on Noco, Islam considers Moses and Jesus Christ as prophets... Muhammad is just the last of God's Prophet.
A lecture I heard said that Muhammad and the Koran greatly admire Moses and Christ, it just doesn't believe Christ to be the son of God nor Moses... whatever Moses was to Judaism.

All three religions worship the exact same God. 

It's hard to be that different when you worship the same deity, originate from the same region.

So why do you and others see these three major religions as so different? Politics, money, power... not the religion itself.


----------



## luutzu (20 September 2014)

Craton said:


> Unfortunately I saw this happening when living in Sydney between '81/91. Living in Belmore just around the corner from Lakemba Police Station and when walking down the main drag of Lakemba; seeing the burqa and the suspicious eyes of the males, me and my family felt very uncomfortable. I tried to dismiss the feeling but I've come to learn to trust my gut instinct. Events since then have proved I had cause to feel unnerved and uneasy.
> 
> Seeing mosques being built I thought, OK, OK, freedom of religion and all. Our governing bodies must know what their doing. Surely?
> 
> ...




Genuine leadership, the kind of leadership that care for its subjects well being... that kind of leadership does not in any way frighten its subject. It would go about silently its duty to protect its people, making sure they do not know about the threats that keep them up at night.

What did Franklin Roosevelt say to the American people after Pearl Harbour? We can be harm at any time? All you need to harm Americans is a knife and an American?

He tell them that "the only thing to fear is fear itself" right?

But I guess good politicians know what people are thinking and simply say and do things the people would say and do anyway... that's what good "leadership" is.


----------



## Wysiwyg (21 September 2014)

Interesting reading about the Muslim conquests of 7th century which is now being attempted  in the modern world.


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## noco (21 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> Come on Noco, Islam considers Moses and Jesus Christ as prophets... Muhammad is just the last of God's Prophet.
> A lecture I heard said that Muhammad and the Koran greatly admire Moses and Christ, it just doesn't believe Christ to be the son of God nor Moses... whatever Moses was to Judaism.
> 
> All three religions worship the exact same God.
> ...





One has the radical interpretation of killing. beheading, torture. intimidation and fear if you are not prepared to convert.....This one is not religion but political with the ultimate aim of world domination......they use religion as a front.

I do not know the other two religions you refer to but I am sure any sane person with any common sense would not place them in the same category as Islam.


----------



## luutzu (21 September 2014)

noco said:


> One has the radical interpretation of killing. beheading, torture. intimidation and fear if you are not prepared to convert.....This one is not religion but political with the ultimate aim of world domination......they use religion as a front.
> 
> I do not know the other two religions you refer to but I am sure any sane person with any common sense would not place them in the same category as Islam.




I reckon i'm quite sane. But point is, it's just a fact that Islam, Judaism, Christianity all worship the exact same God. They just call Him by different name - in their own language. So it's Allah, It's God, or Jehovah [?]... all the same God.

There's a separate thread to discuss religion... let's talk about this new wave of anti terror and a century war on the Jihadis.

We're already losing this war. 

Unless we, the West, are willing to nuke and wipe out some 1.4 Billion Muslims... that or get out of the Middle East, this war is not going to end and the American Empire and its allies will collapse or disintegrate long before that war is ever going to end.

All empires throughout history collapse because it goes bankrupt... either through its inability to collect taxes, something the US is finding harder and harder to do since Reagan some 30 years ago... or find its military overstretched and cannot find the money to finance its outposts and armed forces.

We are doing what Bin Laden had planned and prayed we would do... so while it feels good to kick down doors and invade countries and bomb the bad guys to feel safe, we ought to pick our battles, know our limits. 

One of the smartest thing the Roman emperor Augustus did was to draw the boundaries of the Roman Empire. He lost 3 Roman legions to a Germanic tribe/s in a couple of battles... with some 20 or 25 more legions around the empire, he surely could bring hell to avenge them but instead chose to draw up the empire's boundaries and extend it no further.

The IS, with its horrific beheading of Westerners, is practically begging us to come on over. And we're too happy to oblige.

Bin Laden's 9/11 terror attack literally picks a fight and lure us into the Middle East with open wars of invasion... 14 years, some 5 Trillion US dollars, millions of civilian deaths and countless destructions on their land, thousands of our own families losing loved ones... then the drone strikes that brought 24/7 terror to just about every Arabs in just about every Arab countries... are we going to win this war? We certainly are not winning hearts and minds.

We ought to reconsider whether the gains from oil, the strategic geopolitical objectives of us staying in the ME... whether doing so is still to our national interests in the long term. Our leadership seem to think it is... maybe they're right... just I'm not so sure the we can afford the treasure to pay for it, afford that and have reserves to confront potential nuclear-powered, organised and fully militarised nation-states literally in our neighbourhood.

As rich and as powerful as we are, the West is in relative decline since the end of WW2. India is getting richer, so is China, Japan has long ago recovered from its destruction in WW2, Russia is still a major world power, Brazil is also growing rich and powerful, most South American countries are slowly rising and no longer under US/Western control... all of them have people who need to be fed and energy to warm their homes and power their cars.

We, the West, spent some $5 trillions, officially, on two wars; spending hundreds of billions to secure our ports and planes; spending hundreds of millions per year increasing security presence and show of force on our own home soil... these few billions add up to real money. 

Does it make us safer from the declared enemy like ISIS and Arab terrorists? 

So believe in the BS from our politicians about us and them, about them hating us because of our freedom and way of life.... do so if you want. Just be mindful of the consequences to both our own liberty and our national survival when a couple of of giants starts to flex its nuclear, aircraft carrier invasion fleet muscle.

With the current climate in Australia, imagine how hard it is for a Muslim youth to find a job now. Then imagine the hyped up, geared up police and security officers "randomly" asking them questions or check their bags every time they're on a train or walk near a public icon... and one day, one of these youth will snap, our police will snap back with guns loaded, then watch how right and righteous some of the politicians will react and watch how safe we are made to feel with militarised officers on every corner.


----------



## Craton (21 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> He tell them that "the only thing to fear is fear itself" right?




Yes, the only thing to fear is fear itself.

Generally that applies to fear of the unknown however, knowing one's life and way of life is at risk and threatened from irrational, ruthless, cold hearted, murderous ideologists that refuse point blank to compromise and that they would rather die than live in peace, what of that then?

No I don't fear these extremists, I feel sorry for the grief they cause, I'm aghast that there appears to be no solution that is peaceful so, the only alternative is conflict. To me that is not a religion, not even a political stand point but rather it is no better than a particularly nasty, narrow minded death wish cult.

Sorry, I don't see a lot being done to allay fears from the followers of Islam. Why?

They are the one's that live in constant fear, fear from within that's why. Yeah, real great way to exist and exist is all they are doing as living by a doctrine that rules by fear, intimidation and disdain for all others, is not living.


----------



## Craton (21 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> I reckon i'm quite sane. But point is, it's just a fact that Islam, Judaism, Christianity all worship the exact same God. They just call Him by different name - in their own language. So it's Allah, It's God, or Jehovah [?]... all the same God.
> 
> There's a separate thread to discuss religion... let's talk about this new wave of anti terror and a century war on the Jihadis.
> 
> ...




Interesting points there. By whichever way, us Infidels must be wiped out, isn't that the IS want?


----------



## DB008 (21 September 2014)

What are we doing?


*Canadian government begins invalidating passports of citizens who have left to join extremist groups*




> The government has begun invalidating the passports of Canadians who have left to join extremist groups in Syria and Iraq, Citizenship and Immigration Minister Chris Alexander revealed in an interview on Friday.
> 
> The minister told the National Post his department had also revoked the passports of several Canadians who had not yet left the country but who had intended to travel to the volatile region to enlist as foreign fighters.
> 
> ...





http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09/20/canadian-government-revoking-passports-of-citizens-trying-to-join-extremist-groups/


----------



## luutzu (21 September 2014)

Craton said:


> Yes, the only thing to fear is fear itself.
> 
> Generally that applies to fear of the unknown however, knowing one's life and way of life is at risk and threatened from irrational, ruthless, cold hearted, murderous ideologists that refuse point blank to compromise and that they would rather die than live in peace, what of that then?
> 
> ...




I'm saying that from history, if ever there is something real to fear, good leaders hide that fear from its people and quietly get the security issue done. Just like FDR's speech to strengthened and calm a frightened nation.

The only reason to ring alarm bells and risk alerts is when you want to scare the heck out of your people so they wouldn't object or question what you want to do.

Here you have the PM telling the people that we should get on with our lives as normal, but oh yea, our risk level is now HIGH; all it take to commit a terror act is a knife, an iphone and a victim; just a lone wolf... knock down 25 doors at gun point, made 19 arrests [?] but releasing 18 [?]; then salute the troops and wish them godspeed as they fight for freedom, justice and Team Australia against the Muslims.

It's insane that a religion with some 1.4 billion followers, worshipping the same God as you do, now need to explain themselves that they are not criminals, that their religion is peaceful.

I think there's some 800 years of legal precedents regarding presumed innocent until proven guilty... but that Magna Carta... just a piece of paper for those rich landlords and barons and the rights of men like them right?

So I've read that Muslim leaders are trying to ally fears among some Australians... It's shameful that they have to do that because there is something wrong with ourselves and our political leadership when innocent people have to try to convince its own citizens and gov't of its innocence and peaceful intent. I don't think you would find it fair to have to defend your faith or prove you're just as normal as the next White guy - with bills to pay and family to feed and life to live.

How our leadership is conducting its foreign policies is what the ancient Greeks call Hubris - outrageous arrogance.

We seem to think that there are no other threats and we can spend and defend and own, literally, the entire world. That our resources and treasure are limitless... it's not; that we could borrow or print more money and deficits doesn't matter.

How much does the new generation fighter jet costs us? $350 million, each... right? How much does a smart bomb costs? I heard some ten years ago a Tomahawk missile costs $500,000, each; How much does the increased police presence, the extra security measures costs? It's not just a little inconvenience on us right?

I think this is the first time in the history of the world that an alliance of some 26 States, most of whom are the superpower of its days, join together to fight a stateless enemy of some 10 to 30 thousand soldiers/terrorists.

I suppose that if I'm so rich and so powerful, so beloved and believe the world is so benevolent, I'd join these adventures for God and Corporations too.


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## Wysiwyg (21 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> *The only reason to ring alarm bells and risk alerts is when you want to scare the heck out of your people* so they wouldn't object or question what you want to do.



Your common theme is :- there is an underlying reason or motive for any action taken. This thinking (as in the above sentence) is delusional. We Australians appreciate the positive work done by the authorities to protect the citizens of Australia. The government has cracked down on motorcycle riding gangs because of organised crime. Obviously not every biker is a criminal and it is disappointing the good apples have to suffer the consequences.        



> Here you have the PM telling the people that we should get on with our lives as normal, but oh yea, our risk level is now HIGH; all it take to commit a terror act is a knife, an iphone and a victim;



 That comment is to encourage people to be vigilante. The whole exercise is to control the risk. Anger is evident from the followers and when people are angry they are capable of doing irrational acts.







> just a lone wolf... knock down 25 doors at gun point, made 19 arrests [?] but releasing 18 [?]; then salute the troops and wish them godspeed as they fight for freedom, justice and Team Australia against the Muslims.



Knock down every door that has communication with the terrorist wing of Islam. No Mr. Nice Guy required with this mob. The Aussie defence force will be freeing hundreds of thousands of innocent people (see refugees) in this campaign. A campaign which has the free worlds support and participation.


> It's insane that a religion with some 1.4 billion followers, worshipping the same God as you do, now need to explain themselves that they are not criminals, that their religion is peaceful.



God worship is in the minority in Australian society and is by choice. The wing of Islam that is not peaceful is the issue and they will be weeded out of our society.


> So I've read that Muslim leaders are trying to ally fears among some Australians... It's shameful that they have to do that because there is something wrong with ourselves and our political leadership when innocent people have to try to convince its own citizens and gov't of its innocence and peaceful intent.



There is no shame in allaying any perceived fear. The good guys could also do some house cleaning and weed out the radicals. This would do much toward winning faith back in the communities.


> How much does the new generation fighter jet costs us? $350 million, each... right? How much does a smart bomb costs? I heard some ten years ago a Tomahawk missile costs $500,000, each; How much does the increased police presence, the extra security measures costs? It's not just a little inconvenience on us right?



It was only last century that Australia and the rest of the freer world that were capable, defended our shores with huge personal and financial cost. Inconvenient? Only for the Japs of that time. 


> I think this is the first time in the history of the world that an alliance of some 26 States, most of whom are the superpower of its days, join together to fight a stateless enemy of some 10 to 30 thousand soldiers/terrorists.



Overwhelming condemnation, support and participation. 


> I suppose that if I'm so rich and so powerful, so beloved and believe the world is so benevolent, I'd join these adventures for God and Corporations too.



Let the Islamic state terrorists continue you reckon?

Finally and most directly. If one does not wish to live a peace orientated life in Australia then there are planes leaving daily to other countries. Get on one and don't come back.


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## luutzu (21 September 2014)

Wysiwyg said:


> Your common theme is :- there is an underlying reason or motive for any action taken. This thinking (as in the above sentence) is delusional. We Australians appreciate the positive work done by the authorities to protect the citizens of Australia. The government has cracked down on motorcycle riding gangs because of organised crime. Obviously not every biker is a criminal and it is disappointing the good apples have to suffer the consequences.
> 
> That comment is to encourage people to be vigilante. The whole exercise is to control the risk. Anger is evident from the followers and when people are angry they are capable of doing irrational acts.Knock down every door that has communication with the terrorist wing of Islam. No Mr. Nice Guy required with this mob. The Aussie defence force will be freeing hundreds of thousands of innocent people (see refugees) in this campaign. A campaign which has the free worlds support and participation.
> God worship is in the minority in Australian society and is by choice. The wing of Islam that is not peaceful is the issue and they will be weeded out of our society.
> ...





Trust me, I'm all for protecting Australia. 

Tell me how does the public terror alert system help protect Australia? What does the gov't expect ordinary Australians to do when the system is High or Extreme? Be vigilant? Flood 000s with calls of suspicious looking people? I'm pretty sure all Australians at all times would call authorities when they see something suspicious.

Be alert? How? Start forming neighbourhood watch and put 000 on speed dial as we stay up late and record any strange car plates on our street? Or report some guy's doodling and got him kicked off the plane?

What good are our security agencies and what good are those databases and wiretaps when the public is needed to help out and inform on their neighbours. 

I'm just glad Australians are not the gun carrying type... and next time i borrow my dad's van, i'll be sure to not cover any valuables or tools with any blanket or anything. 

Try to imagine the consequences when you wound up the public like this, or increasing more "vigilant" in police officers with deadly weapons; add to that the racism and bigotry against an entire community of mostly "good apples"... imagine the possible consequences will you.

What would happen if an overworked, under-trained, fully armed security patrol officer meet an unemployed, discriminated, one-random-search-too-many Muslim kid who decided to scream and swear at said officer. It'll be a riot, literally.


-----
You think this mission against ISIL is to save refugees? There's more than a few thousand refugees we're locking up right now... i think it's cheaper to free those ones here then to travel to the ME and freeing those other ones. And I am delusional.

It's politics, there's always motives, note plural, involved.

I would even give it to Abbott that he truly believe what he's doing is to our long term national interests, to our security.

As responsible citizens, we ought to wonder a little if these laws and speeches does what it is supposed to do - keeping us safe, keeping us free.

If not, you got to wonder, like real adults do, that being politicians with a limited term in office and long years in retirement... could it be possible that being friendly to big businesses that would lead to cushy consultancy, directorship, hefty speaking fees and book deals... that that potential might cloud some elected representatives' judgment.

We're living in a democracy... it's pretty much the only system that allow that kind of questioning... make the most of it.



----
There's no shame in the people explaining themselves... the shame is on us. 
Imagine what nice people we are if we force our neighbours to explain why they're peaceful and good like us for no  other reason than them being Muslims... wait, we are doing that, and we're not listening to the bs about peaceful faith and Allah right.

---

What happen to the British and French empires after WW2? The Sun did set on it right?
Britain either lost or can no longer defend its vast empire.
Egypt, the Middle East, India/Pakistan/Afghanistan, Burma, Malaysia, Singapore, and Australia and the Pacific were pretty much given up to protect themselves.

Why did Britain lost so many of its colonies? Because it decided to set them free?
World War 1 was one war too many; WW2 was another great war started a decade too early for Britain's planners and if it weren't for Hitler's arrogance, most of Europe and the world would be speaking German since.

So chest thumping and kick down doors all we like, just make sure we don't do it and lose our freedom then potentially our sovereignty in the process. 

The Sun will always set, just sometime it take longer due to daylight saving.

-----
Former CIA analyst Michael Scheuer said in one of his interview/lectures: Let them kill each other if that's what they want to do.

We ought to recognise our limits, the limits of our military and resources.

The US alone have spent $5 trillion and all but one year in this new century fighting terror.
The withdrawal from Iraq led to ISIS, and now we're back... this time extending into Syria.

As Scheuer said, in a couple of years the US will be leaving Afghanistan... I don't think the Taliban and other terrorists will just sign up to the electoral lists and start voting.


In 1997, under Clinton, China was "testing" its missiles in the Taiwan Strait... though it did privately warn the US it is only testing the US decided to send in its Aircraft carrier (the George Washington) and have another battle group ready nearby.

China blinked and back off.

Get stuck in the ME for another 5 or 10 years fighting evil terrorists abroad and defend the homeland with eternal vigilance and see if China would easily blink next time around.



Anyway, have spent my allocated quota... better get back to working harder so my tax dollars could keep me safe but my family and yours will have to fork out further co-contribution to see a doctor; get use to road congestions and run down public schools our kids go to.


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## orr (22 September 2014)

Could be just a coincedence of course; 


"Two Chinese warships have docked at Iran’s principal naval port for the first time in history."

As reported in the Nytimes today. 
Just in for a bit of R&R?

The 'Tony Speacial', for lunch down, in the mess today and bigger mess tomorrow. 'Kurd Sandwich' 
Followed for brekky tomorrow 'Gulf of Tonkin Re-hash'.......

High Terror Alert Game stats so far;

Australians Murdered By Fanatics..............................     0
Australian Women Murdered by their Partners..............    3.2


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## Sir Osisofliver (22 September 2014)

I'm seeing a lot of comments along the lines of "why don't moderates speak out?" without anybody actually finding out if they are...which doesn't seem to be a particularly balanced view of the topic. There are moderate voices that are deploring what is happening in regards to ISIL. There's a couple of examples I can think of off the top of my head that have been in the news a few times...

#Notinmyname

Dr Jamal Rifi - Grand Mufti of Australia

Mohamed Elomar's own Dad 

A quick google of the topic brings up plenty of examples from all over the world of moderate Muslims condemning the actions of ISIL. I'm concerned over the apparent bias I'm seeing in the thread. I work closely with an Iranian Muslim guy...he's one of the nicest guys I know, so I get concerned when I see comments that brand *all* Muslims with the "they are all extremists" brush. Seems short-sighted. People are just people.

Cheers

Sir O


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## Tisme (22 September 2014)

Craton said:


> If Islam is well structured then surely the extremists can't hide behind the dogma even without "an independent judiciary, backed up by a parliament and ultimately the defence forces, to handle the judgements"?




Well they can and they do because they break the laws. 

I was reading the drivel that is the Courier Mail this morning and the editor (I think he was germinated and raised from a seed packet of Yates "Grand LNP" ) decided to wax lyrical about how we are tolerant society, predicated on a history of freedom, fair go, classlessness, mateship, work ethic and apparently we are an Anglo-Irish tradition at that.

I don't know what history books they taught at Christopher Dore's school, but I'm pretty sure Ray Martin's reinventions of the great Aussie bloke wasn't compulsory reading.

Australia as I was lessoned was at best struggle street for much of it's history, with landed gentrified squattocracies (the bedrock of the Libs) running workers ragged while they headed to the ocean for the summer breezes. The Irish were trouble makers at best and plagued the mining fields with their not so funny shenanigans. As late as the 20th century the Lawsons, Bango Patersons, CJ Dennis', etc were still at it with the bush versus city versus hand to mouth poverty. 

The truth is that Australia has always had big government involvement because we had a big place with only a few people to develop it. The running gang battles, the ethnic tensions with and expulsion of Chinese, Kanakas, etc, the  inequity of the genders, the aborigines, the blue collars, the living hell hostels for migrants etc seem to be conveniently ignored when it comes to fabricating a myth to engender some kind of fantastical society of "fair go".

It wasn't niceness that caused Governor Philip and the succeeding Govs to share equitably the food store with covs and cons alike, but survival of the colony; however he is the "fair go" origin bloke IMO that planted the seed in between flogging people for not behaving. Macquarie was another fella who seemed to have had his ruling class epaulettes tarnished in favour of nation building with his notion of best man for the job attitude.

It's the govt who decided to square things up for the working class after the capitalists had hijacked our birth rights for profits, by introducing world firsts like arbitration commissions, basic wages, fair days pay for a fair day's pay. etc. 

All we ever asked for was that anyone who came here didn't scab on his work mates, learned English, absorbed the racial taunts without protest, assimilated into our part of the British Isles, had a healthy distrust of any politician who made the mistake of thinking he was one of us and you just didn't sh!+ the mob. Barracking for the right team also didn't hurt. If we were all going to be marooned on a desert island with aggressive neighbours to the north we had to get on and be seen to be fair while trying to shake down fools with money and means.

That's Tisme's eye of the past. Maybe things weren't so candy canes and fairy floss before Al Grassby, but no matter how we look at the past the all pervasive smell from Govt is all over our psyche and it's govt that needs to show mature leadership, not playing new jet setting kid on the UN block to whip up international ferment for war. 

We don't need Chris Dore's romantic notions of a matey nation built on the sweat of blokes (sans women and natives) who did it for a fair go and obsequious devotion to LNP neo nationalism; the obvious paper thin corollary being that the narks on the outer promising to cause mayhem because their feelings have been hurt cum insulted, should understand we (Rupert Murdoch) are merely humouring them for now, but tread carefully.  

That these new mice that now roar with swords, practice a ubiquitous slavishness to a book of words written by empire building bloodlusting blokes who hadn't conceived of human cultural evolution, industrial revolutions, knowledge flourishes and that smarts is not the preserve of those with rat cunning, speaks heaps about how people will opt for a lazy way out everytime their comfort zones are threatened...and as usual there's no better way of copping out than to blame others, look for a green light in a religious book of sky fairies and omnipotents written by millennia dead bludgers. It breaks the boredom of the same thing day in day out; putting on a uniform and going to war for some cause, whatever cause in the name of an invisible delinquent landlord who hasn't had the good sense to fence in his sheep from spoiling the crop ..... and that's just the Catholics !


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## SirRumpole (22 September 2014)

Funny how we haven't heard anything from Israel about this ISIL business.

You would have thought they would be one of the first in, considering how important the US is to them in terms of arms and money.


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## luutzu (22 September 2014)

orr said:


> Could be just a coincedence of course;
> 
> 
> "Two Chinese warships have docked at Iran’s principal naval port for the first time in history."
> ...




China is setting up permanent bases in the South China Sea, claiming some 90% of that blue water with gas reserves estimated to be able to supply its current need for 100 years, with 10% or so of the world's fisheries and through which 1/3 of the world's trade passes.

It is funding oppositions in Burma, its one time friend who recently join our side; Trying to make nice with India, and making nice with Vietnam after its recent oil rig fumble; It's been hard at work in Africa securing oils and mineral resources... when its second aircraft carrier battle group is ready by 2017... 

It's going to be an interesting century.


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## luutzu (22 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny how we haven't heard anything from Israel about this ISIL business.
> 
> You would have thought they would be one of the first in, considering how important the US is to them in terms of arms and money.




Israel is one of those friends you help but can't really use.

To be fair, I heard from Stephen Walt that if Israel join any alliance the US try to form with Arab states, the Arabs would get out and will not join.

That and the latest incursion into Gaza costs it $50 million per day, or $2.5 billion for 50 days. Add to that the impact on its agricultural industry, its tourism industry, the Boycott Divest Sanction movement gaining traction against its goods... its economy isn't doing too good.

Funny thing is they expect Gaza to be a quick win, like it always was... just in and out in 5 or 10 days. They didn't expect the tunnels and the resistance.


Our PM is making it out like we're going in, drop a few bombs and a few humanitarian packets and be home before Christmas.

Obama just upset Assad, aim to bomb his country and arm its rebels. Why would Syrian rebels fighting against Assad want to fight ISIS for the West? You would imagine that they're smart enough to keep ISIS the goose that get you aid and funding from a superpower, not help kill the golden goose and be left to your own devices own the job's done.


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## DB008 (22 September 2014)

*Islamic State urges Muslims to kill Australian ‘unbelievers’*



> AUSTRALIA has received a direct threat from Islamic State fighters in a chilling new video recording, which the government believes is genuine.
> 
> The 42-minute propaganda video, which has been circulated on social media, urges Muslims to launch attacks on civilians in a number of countries including France, Australia and Canada, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation News reported.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/national/islamic-state-urges-muslims-to-kill-australian-unbelievers/story-fncynjr2-1227066847053


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## Macquack (22 September 2014)

noco said:


> The Muslims community should be given the ultimatum.
> 
> Are you with us or against in our way of life?.....if you are with us then accept our way of life....if you are against us then go back to where Islam is practiced in your home country,




What about the Commos, Noco, what about the Commos?

Have you given up on your quest to rid Australia of the Reds under the Bed?

Is Muslim bashing your new flavour of the month?

At least make up your mind who you hate the most.


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## Julia (22 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> Our PM is making it out like we're going in, drop a few bombs and a few humanitarian packets and be home before Christmas.



That is your interpretation, given your entrenched political stance.
I took no such message from what he has said.  Actually, entirely to the contrary.  By criticising Abbott and the government you are saying our intelligence services are mistaken/entirely worthless/choose your own expression.
I suppose in such a free country as Australia you have the right to make such an assertion.

Make the most of it.


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## banco (22 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny how we haven't heard anything from Israel about this ISIL business.
> 
> You would have thought they would be one of the first in, considering how important the US is to them in terms of arms and money.




If you knew anything about the middle east you'd know that the last thing the US would want in the world would be Israel openly taking military action against ISIS alongside US.


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## luutzu (22 September 2014)

Julia said:


> That is your interpretation, given your entrenched political stance.
> I took no such message from what he has said.  Actually, entirely to the contrary.  By criticising Abbott and the government you are saying our intelligence services are mistaken/entirely worthless/choose your own expression.
> I suppose in such a free country as Australia you have the right to make such an assertion.
> 
> Make the most of it.




I don't think I have a political stance, if by that you mean Labor or Liberal or Greens... I'm just sceptical.

A few weeks ago, Abbott said there won't be boots on the grounds; last week he send off 600 special forces [?] with a few F-16s. So OK, I'm wrong that he won't expect them to be home before Christmas.

With regards to the raids... I have no opinions worth anything there. Though it's a bit of a coincidence that it happen just before the military send off and within the news cycle of debates on bills to increase our intelligence and AFP powers and funding.

I just heard on ABC's Q&A that the agencies have been on to this group since May this year. That since an attack is imminent, they have to act. Coincidentals or politically convenient as it might appear, safety first.

So I make no judgment about our security agencies, I don't know the facts and trust that they are doing the right thing. Though I wouldn't put politics above anyone's decisions, especially when it's not harmful to help a gov't who's trying to give you more power and more money.

With regard to my criticism of the gov't. It's with this drive to war, this fear-mongering and this idiotic Terror Alert system. Have nothing to do with ASIO or what they interpret or know.

The agencies should tell the gov't the risks and their assessments... the gov't does not need to scare the public with it. Unless the gov't is asking us to enlist and go to the front line, what use is it to the people to know that at any time, any place, they could be kidnap and murder? Telling ordinary people to be alert make none of us any safer, and less safe for the non-terrorist Muslim-Australians.

The US, under Obama, had removed Bush's Terror Alert. I'm pretty sure the NSA and CIA etc. are working just as hard and brief the gov't on important security issues/threats without the public needing to know about the levels.


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## luutzu (23 September 2014)

DB008 said:


> *Islamic State urges Muslims to kill Australian ‘unbelievers’*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/islamic-state-urges-muslims-to-kill-australian-unbelievers/story-fncynjr2-1227066847053




I'm not trying to make light of that threat or any threat by terrorists, but you know who's winning the war when only   a few words from one side make the other side arms themselves to the teeth, looking at tossing away some unimportant liberties like not being locked up without charge; and have one neighbour turn against another.

I think the retired Soviet comrades are kicking themselves that they got into the arms race, the space race, the nuclear race... and ended up broke where all they needed was a couple millions, a few dozen terrorists, a lot of chatters and the West would just slowly go broke covering every inch of their territories.


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## bellenuit (23 September 2014)

I only saw parts of Q&A tonight, but was shocked by the naivety of some of the panellists in regards to the origins of and reasons for the coming into being of ISIS and other such organisations.

This is a talk by Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Yale last week. The Muslim Students Association protested her presence and the Yale Atheists, Humanists, and Agnostics, who organised the forum (Clash of Civilizations: Islam and the West), initially withdrew her invitation but following protests from many other atheists and others re-invited her.

In the talk she gives a great insight into why Islam is what it is today (it wasn't always that way) and explains a lot about the reasons for what is happening today in the Middle East.

Her talk starts about the 10 minute mark.


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## Tisme (23 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> I don't think I have a political stance, if by that you mean Labor or Liberal or Greens... I'm just sceptical.
> 
> A few weeks ago, Abbott said there won't be boots on the grounds; last week he send off 600 special forces [?] with a few F-16s. So OK, I'm wrong that he won't expect them to be home before Christmas.
> 
> .




Takes a lot of support sappers and logistical staff to man the planes, manipulate the drones and back up each SAS advisor.

History would suggest the announcements of deployment are probably after the initial expeditionary crew have landed and set up a defensive ...which makes sense. I would suggest we have been on the ground for some time and a Xmas return is rather ambitious, given the next election is still 2 years out, which gives Julie plenty of time to insult and apologise to plenty more world leaders (which according to News Corp is a winner with the women voters of Oz).


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## Tisme (23 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> , looking at tossing away some unimportant liberties like not being locked up without charge; and have one neighbour turn against another.




I think you will find it's new LNP policy to restrain the rights of citizens, because their homework says we equate behavioural boundaries with safety. Law and Order is always the bellwether agenda for political parties, coupled with the far right attitudes of the Libs that means licences to do anything, fines for being impudent and VLAD style legislations.

We aren't the same country we were 40 years ago and we are socially poorer for it, IMO. Back then a man could count on bikini clad girls wandering the city malls, but now we are distracted by burlap wearing, wannabe Bedouin women chattels too ashamed to show themselves for fear of drawing attention to themselves and their possessive husband's ire. And we Anglo/Celtic/Norman/Nordic/Franco/Italiano/Germanic/Greco/Slavic/Russo/Oriental/etc Australians whose ancestors were put through the rigours of the Aussie new migrants assimilation grinder are too polite to make comment in case we make them feel uncomfortable ...FMD !!!


----------



## Craton (23 September 2014)

Sir Osisofliver said:


> I'm seeing a lot of comments along the lines of "why don't moderates speak out?" without anybody actually finding out if they are...which doesn't seem to be a particularly balanced view of the topic. There are moderate voices that are deploring what is happening in regards to ISIL. There's a couple of examples I can think of off the top of my head that have been in the news a few times...
> 
> #Notinmyname
> 
> ...




Good points Sir O.
I certainly don't consider all Muslins to be extremists. Biased from my point of view because I didn't see, hear much in the media from the Muslim community speaking up against the ISIL movement until the end of last week. Not that I'm glued to the media...

Now, must say, I do think the media has played into feeding the frenzy helping to whip up support for deployment of our armed forces. Clearly a far more balanced approach by our media is needed and hopefully, that is now occuring.


----------



## Craton (23 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> Well they can and they do because they break the laws.
> 
> <snip /> ..... and that's just the Catholics !




Wow, that's a fantastic diatribe, got that off your chest now? 

This, however, put a smile on my dial...



> We aren't the same country we were 40 years ago and we are socially poorer for it, IMO. Back then a man could count on bikini clad girls wandering the city malls, but now we are distracted by burlap wearing, wannabe Bedouin women chattels too ashamed to show themselves for fear of drawing attention to themselves and their possessive husband's ire. And we Anglo/Celtic/Norman/Nordic/Franco/Italiano/Germanic/Greco/Slavic/Russo/Oriental/etc Australians whose ancestors were put through the rigours of the Aussie new migrants assimilation grinder are too polite to make comment in case we make them feel uncomfortable ...FMD !!!




Thing is, ISIL doesn't make me laugh...


----------



## noco (23 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny how we haven't heard anything from Israel about this ISIL business.
> 
> You would have thought they would be one of the first in, considering how important the US is to them in terms of arms and money.




Israel is too busy coping with ISIL"s brother Hamas.


----------



## noco (23 September 2014)

Macquack said:


> What about the Commos, Noco, what about the Commos?
> 
> Have you given up on your quest to rid Australia of the Reds under the Bed?
> 
> ...




Some women give birth to natural comedians and some bear 'would be comedians'.

On a more serious note, communism is perhaps the lesser of two evils although they have the same intentions of world domination......Modern Communism in Australia today now execute their business in a more subtle way as did the self confessed communist Julia Gillard did in her short term which was plain to see by all.....a total disaster......Communism now go under the shadow of the Green/Labor party left wing socialist who practice democratic socialism with the support of the remaining content of the unions.....They just nibble their way without the naive really knowing what is going on......however, we must be thankful for the fact that modern communism have in recent times not used intimidation and fear......but when it is all boiled down communism has failed in the past and will fail again.

I probably do not need to comment on Islam as there has been enough in the media for you to see for yourself....Islam is very mixed up political society at the moment as much they really don't know who they are....on the one hand we have Islamic moderates living in Australia who condemn the radicals who in turn do not take any notice of the moderates......then we have in the middle East 3 or 4 different Islamic groups fighting amongst themselves like one big happy family who cannot agree who is right and who is wrong so they talk to each other with guns......

So at this stage I guess we have to get our priorities in order to deal with the worst of a bad bunch.

So Macquack, how do you see it all or should we just transfer your post the ASF joke thread?


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> I think you will find it's new LNP policy to restrain the rights of citizens, because their homework says we equate behavioural boundaries with safety. Law and Order is always the bellwether agenda for political parties, coupled with the far right attitudes of the Libs that means licences to do anything, fines for being impudent and VLAD style legislations.
> 
> We aren't the same country we were 40 years ago and we are socially poorer for it, IMO. Back then a man could count on bikini clad girls wandering the city malls, but now we are distracted by burlap wearing, wannabe Bedouin women chattels too ashamed to show themselves for fear of drawing attention to themselves and their possessive husband's ire. And we Anglo/Celtic/Norman/Nordic/Franco/Italiano/Germanic/Greco/Slavic/Russo/Oriental/etc Australians whose ancestors were put through the rigours of the Aussie new migrants assimilation grinder are too polite to make comment in case we make them feel uncomfortable ...FMD !!!




Good writing. Took me a few times to read to understand, but that's just me.

Was out driving my son and on the corner of Haldon St, Lakemba parked a police van. I saw some pamphlets on the table and a young officer was answering questions to a lady, saying hello to a young Muslim man as he went by. I think the cop peaked inside my car as I stopped at the lights in front of him.

While I think that police van is just there as community outreach of some sort, I'm not sure how that looks to young Arab youths, and am pretty sure it could be turn and misinterpreted by people who want to convince and misguide others.

Increased police presence is a sign that the community is not safe - hence they are there to keep us safe. That put people on edge, put officers on edge... and soon, either some accident or misfires happen or people will just be complacent. Both of which will not be good for our safety or our freedom. Imagine getting all these false alarms.. it's just normal that after a while, you start to kind of put down your guard or ignore it.

A quote from Abbott's security speech to Parliament:



> Regrettably, for some time to come, the delicate balance between freedom and security may have to shift.
> 
> There may be more restrictions on some so that there can be more protections for others.
> 
> Creating new offences that are harder to beat on a technicality may be a small price to pay for saving lives and for maintaining the social fabric of an open, free and multicultural nation.




I guess restrictions on "some" mean some other people, not us so it's OK. And I thought the law is all about technicality.

It's a very slippery slope we're on. When is it too early to lock people up without much evidence to charge them? 
A Pre-Crime Unit is a good plot line in Minority Report, not very healthy for a free and open society.

How long will "some (body else)" among us will have to take a few restriction and detention without charge for the team? For some time to come? Like this 100 years war on terror?


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

noco said:


> Some women give birth to natural comedians and some bear 'would be comedians'.
> 
> On a more serious note, communism is perhaps the lesser of two evils although they have the same intentions of world domination......Modern Communism in Australia today now execute their business in a more subtle way as did the self confessed communist Julia Gillard did in her short term which was plain to see by all.....a total disaster......Communism now go under the shadow of the Green/Labor party left wing socialist who practice democratic socialism with the support of the remaining content of the unions.....They just nibble their way without the naive really knowing what is going on......however, we must be thankful for the fact that modern communism have in recent times not used intimidation and fear......but when it is all boiled down communism has failed in the past and will fail again.
> 
> ...




Macquack is pretty funny, and right on about you too Noco. You just proved that yourself.

I shouldn't laugh because you're my senior, but you got to admit it's pretty funny.


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> Takes a lot of support sappers and logistical staff to man the planes, manipulate the drones and back up each SAS advisor.
> 
> History would suggest the announcements of deployment are probably after the initial expeditionary crew have landed and set up a defensive ...which makes sense. I would suggest we have been on the ground for some time and a Xmas return is rather ambitious, given the next election is still 2 years out, which gives Julie plenty of time to insult and apologise to plenty more world leaders (which according to News Corp is a winner with the women voters of Oz).




True, didn't look at the logistics... was assuming Uncle Sam would provide those.

There's a recent Newsweek article saying how Obama might be able to keep his promise of no boots on the ground - that there will be shoes, shoes of mercenaries like Black Waters... so technically no boots. But they don't come cheap, nor do they want to end things quickly.

From memory, wars are only popular at the start, and only remain popular if it ends quickly. Don't think this will work out well for Abbott's career as PM.


----------



## Tisme (23 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> True, didn't look at the logistics... was assuming Uncle Sam would provide those.
> 
> .




I think our drones, for instance are Israeli, which might prove alien to the US and the planes have proprietary ADF routines too.


----------



## Julia (23 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> Increased police presence is a sign that the community is not safe - hence they are there to keep us safe. That put people on edge, put officers on edge... and soon, either some accident or misfires happen or people will just be complacent. Both of which will not be good for our safety or our freedom.



Could you then describe how you think the government should be handling the current situation?  You'd prefer they do nothing, just dismiss the threats as hyped up nonsense?

I don't think anyone has any appetite for involvement in any of this stuff.   But I can imagine the outrage if (or probably more accurately, when) an attack does occur, and the screams would be "what on earth were our intelligence agencies and our government doing while this was being planned?"!


----------



## Tisme (23 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Could you then describe how you think the government should be handling the current situation?  "!




I think they should be keeping their powder dry. 

Tony and his crew have been so long in the wilderness, what with Howard virtually running a one man show and then six years of Punch and Judy, it's not wonder they are itchy scratchy and spoiling for a fight..... 16 years of being nothing more than indolent and spiteful floral children in the attic has to take its toll on young minds. 

In the old days coppers would employ a rubber hose or telephone book, rather than bother with trifles. We need those virtual tools to lay down some discipline amongst those who would harm us.


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

bellenuit said:


> I only saw parts of Q&A tonight, but was shocked by the naivety of some of the panellists in regards to the origins of and reasons for the coming into being of ISIS and other such organisations.
> 
> This is a talk by Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Yale last week. The Muslim Students Association protested her presence and the Yale Atheists, Humanists, and Agnostics, who organised the forum (Clash of Civilizations: Islam and the West), initially withdrew her invitation but following protests from many other atheists and others re-invited her.
> 
> ...





This lady is no scholar, no historian. She's a bit of an bigot actually. With all due respect.

What she's describing from her own experience is what happen when you mix state policy with religion, when you interpret the Koran or the Bible or the Old Testament literally and make it your state's policies. 

We tend to forget that our Western societies, with its great advances in medicine, the sciences, the equality of gender, laws against discriminations, against domestic abuse etc. etc.... all of this is possible only because we separate the Religion from the State.

But we tend to think that our Western society is so great because our God is more noble.
No religion allows you to criticise their God or Deity. We in the West are only allowed to because our secular law permit it.

Darwin have to think twice, three times and put away his thesis on the Origin of Species - evolution - for about a decade until another scholar told him that he had also come to the same conclusion and knowing that Darwin had gotten there first, so if Darwin does not want to publish those findings the guy will publish his.

When you have a leader that is raised up with the Bible, or who found God on his way to power... you get Bush Jr. and illegalisation of Stem Cell research, defunding of family planning, or Crusades or Team Australia.

---

She has no understanding of history and no understanding of current affairs. 

Her reasons for Islam being a violent religion is the Sword on Saudi Arabia's flag; that "there is no God but God and Muhammad is his Prophet"; The Arabs/Muslims are still fighting and causing terror even though other former colonies, like Vietnam, like South Korea, are no longer causing terrorists act... 

Come on... When Moses put down the chisel and bring those tablets down from Mt. Sinai [?], I think the first commandment is that thou shall not put another God before me, I am a jealous God etc. etc.; And Muhammad, like Moses, is what Machiavelli called armed Prophets - that you better be armed and have armies when you claim to hear or represents God... the last guy that claim that and unarmed got himself crucified.

With regards to the ME or Muslim countries in Africa no longer being a colony or no resistance fighters but just terrorists who follow Islam... There's countless documentaries and I've heard it a few times from Chomsky's lectures saying otherwise.

That after WW2, Churchill's Britain and France pretty much divided their possessions in North Africa and the ME to their own interests; Roosevelt make a brief stop to Arabia and met with bin Saud [?] - the Saudi in Saudi Arabia I'm guessing - and assured him the US will help him with his problems;

So when the ME was divided into its current states today, there were no regards by Churchill or Western interests to divide it among ethnic regions; just whatever is more convenient and beneficial... then propping up of kings and dictators to rule over a divided country needing Western arms and advice to keep the peace... and oil is also good.

So you have Churchill asking Eisenhower to intervene in Iran because its democratically elected president thought that maybe BP ought to pay more for the oil, then came the coup and the Shah of Iran rule for some 20 years before the revolution that put in power the current regime.

I'm not excusing terrorism or act of violence and murder, but to blame it on religion or ethnic inferiority and such is not smart for us in the long run. That if you go to war, at least know who your enemies are and why they're fighting so you can win and not involve in possibly perpetual wars and lost focus.

I agree that we ought to do what is to our national interests, cruel and violent as it might be. I think we would all rather we don't, but that's the way of the world; and obviously not allow violent to be committed against us and our interests... But the policies since WW2 that all great powers like ours have been conducting around the world... I'm not so sure it is to our long term interests in this changing world.

We might want to rethink it.

We are living in the nuclear age and we are nuclear armed - or at least Australia could borrow a couple from Uncle Sam or the Britannia if push come to shove... so the old policies of weakening rivals and balancing power, of exploitation and colonisation through corporations and dictators... that kind of policies, i don't think, serves our interests. Definitely does not serve the unfortunate people subjected to it.

Since nukes will, to a good degree, protect us from invasion by another state... it is better that we enrich ourselves and expand our influence through trade and through policies that also enrich the country and the people whose resources we need. To prop up dictators, help him suppress his people and give us favourable deals to the country's resources sounds good on paper, had proved to work very well since Columbus discovered the Americas... I don't think it work as well now as it does then.

Broadly speaking, the $5 trillion dollars the US spent to control those two countries in the ME... it devastated their entire country, it hasn't made the US/Aus safer or richer... and for us to make a profit, more than $5 trillion must be extracted from unfavourable deals with whoever we preferred and protected... doing so will definitely mean resistance, terrorism there and possibly here in our country.

So real leadership is needed, not this childish clash of civilisation, they hate us for our freedom and our girls wearing bikinis and going to school; this they hate us even though we try to build for them a shiny city on the hill; we try to bring peace and civilisation to them and they just believe in God too much to appreciate it.

Do that and we'll just keep fighting and keep losing and won't know why.


----------



## bellenuit (23 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> Her reasons for Islam being a violent religion is the Sword on Saudi Arabia's flag; that "there is no God but God and Muhammad is his Prophet"; The Arabs/Muslims are still fighting and causing terror even though other former colonies, like Vietnam, like South Korea, are no longer causing terrorists act...




What a ridiculous conclusion. None of these were her reasons for the violence of Islam. They were just examples she gave of the contradictions between what we see is happening and the claim of Islam that it is the religion of peace.

She regards one of the main reasons that many Islamic communities, which previously were tolerant and all inclusive, have changed so drastically is due to what she called the "preacher teachers" that have taken over the mosques and schools in many Islamic and Western countries and preached intolerance of not only  other religions, but of those within their own Islamic faith that do not strictly adhere to a literal interpretation of the Quran and the Hadith. And this is obvious for all of us to see. Why are ordinary Australians, Brits and French joining groups like ISIS. It is because of the indoctrination they receive in their local mosques that teaches them nothing but hate. And we can see this in their demonstrations with even children holding placards demanding the beheading of those who insult the prophet or Islam. You can look up YouTube and you will find hundreds of videos of speeches given in mosques and schools that are promoting a level of intolerance and hate that is almost beyond belief.



> This lady is no scholar, no historian. She's a bit of an bigot actually.




Two claims that she addressed adequately at the beginning of her speech and claims that are always thrown at her by the conservative Muslims. It is interesting that you should mouth the same thing. Please give examples of her bigotry?



> What she's describing from her own experience is what happen when you mix state policy with religion, when you interpret the Koran or the Bible or the Old Testament literally and make it your state's policies.




At least you understood that, but it is not just confined to Islamic states. The atrocities also happen in secular western states to this very day. For example, FGM in Britain and even here in Australia where young girls are brought on "special" holidays overseas where it can be done legally.



> We tend to forget that our Western societies, with its great advances in medicine, the sciences, the equality of gender, laws against discriminations, against domestic abuse etc. etc.... all of this is possible only because we separate the Religion from the State.




Most who post on these forums realise that and if you listened to her talk you would also see that she is advocating that.



> I'm not excusing terrorism or act of violence and murder,




You have been from the first few posts I noticed from you on the Gaza conflict.



> ... but to blame it on religion




Get your head out of the sand. The genocide that ISIS is committing against fellow muslims is directly because of their religious beliefs. 



> ... or ethnic inferiority and such is not smart for us in the long run.




Who put the blame on ethic inferiority?

You need to open your mind and read somebody else other than Chomsky. When these terrorist groups tell you day in day out that what they are doing is in pursuit of their religion, when there are passages in their holy books that can be interpreted to justify what they are doing, when they call for the death by whatever means possible of all non-believers which include men, women and children, then at some stage something must twig in your brain that might make you realise that they might know a bit more about their motivations than Chomsky does.


----------



## noco (23 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> Macquack is pretty funny, and right on about you too Noco. You just proved that yourself.
> 
> I shouldn't laugh because you're my senior, but you got to admit it's pretty funny.




Why not laugh?....Laughter is the best medicine.

It is not strange to me because I have come across so many naive people who are able to see through a key hole with both eyes and that is because they are so narrow minded in being able to accept the truth.

The truth sometimes hurts and when it does, it brings out laughter in some people  in an attempt to belittle the credibility of the another person.

Do get the drift?


----------



## Chris45 (23 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> We are living in the nuclear age and we are nuclear armed - or at least Australia could borrow a couple from Uncle Sam or the Britannia if push come to shove... so the old policies of weakening rivals and balancing power, of exploitation and colonisation through corporations and dictators... that kind of policies, i don't think, serves our interests. Definitely does not serve the unfortunate people subjected to it.
> 
> Since nukes will, to a good degree, protect us from invasion by another state... it is better that we enrich ourselves and expand our influence through trade and through policies that also enrich the country and the people whose resources we need. To prop up dictators, help him suppress his people and give us favourable deals to the country's resources sounds good on paper, had proved to work very well since Columbus discovered the Americas... I don't think it work as well now as it does then.




If you think nuclear missiles would ever be used to protect us from invasion by another state, you might enjoy this:


----------



## banco (23 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> So you have Churchill asking Eisenhower to intervene in Iran because its democratically elected president thought that maybe BP ought to pay more for the oil, then came the coup and the Shah of Iran rule for some 20 years before the revolution that put in power the current regime.




Speaking of Churchill this Churchill quote remains bang on:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! 
Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia
in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many
countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods
of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the 
Prophet rule or live.  A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and 
refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity.  The fact that in Mohammedan 
law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as
a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the
faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.  


Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion 
paralyzes the social development of those who follow it.  No stronger retrograde
force exists in the world.  Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant 
and proselytizing faith.  It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising 
fearless warriors at every step, and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the 
strong arms of science, the science against which it (Islam) has vainly struggled, 
the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”


----------



## Julia (23 September 2014)

banco said:


> Speaking of Churchill this Churchill quote remains bang on:



Agree, banco.  Thank you.  Churchill's eloquence remains unequalled.



Tisme said:


> I think they should be keeping their powder dry.
> 
> Tony and his crew have been so long in the wilderness, what with Howard virtually running a one man show and then six years of Punch and Judy, it's not wonder they are itchy scratchy and spoiling for a fight..... 16 years of being nothing more than indolent and spiteful floral children in the attic has to take its toll on young minds.
> 
> In the old days coppers would employ a rubber hose or telephone book, rather than bother with trifles. We need those virtual tools to lay down some discipline amongst those who would harm us.



I have no wish to be argumentative, but the above seems like a non-answer to me.  Not that you are under any obligation to respond to my question, of course.

What does 'keeping their powder dry" mean?   What would you determine this to translate into actual action or inaction?


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Could you then describe how you think the government should be handling the current situation?  You'd prefer they do nothing, just dismiss the threats as hyped up nonsense?
> 
> I don't think anyone has any appetite for involvement in any of this stuff.   But I can imagine the outrage if (or probably more accurately, when) an attack does occur, and the screams would be "what on earth were our intelligence agencies and our government doing while this was being planned?"!




The intelligence and security/AFP do what they think, when they think, is needed. I don't know any better and not pretending to.

I'm just critical of Abbott and this terror alert and politicising of these threats and these raids. So I'm not saying it's hyped up, saying it has been politicised by our gov't.

That if the PM was sensible, have no political motive, just wanting to keep us all safe, all calm... when ASIO or others come to brief him of these threats and these planned raids... is there a need for him to raise a public alarm bell? What can the public do about it?

Maybe he thought raising the alarm will rattle the snakes, as the Chinese say, and cause them to call each other up and say, Ahmed, do you think they're onto to us bro? Let's cancel it for now... or let's get on with it quickly before we get caught... 

But think a bit harder and maybe the alarm bells do more harm than good. 

It's hindsight now but an interior decorator got pulled off the plane; some suspicious people were picked up near the Lucas Heights nuclear something; four Arab footy fans got pulled out because their phones looks funny or something... it might get worst before we get complacent about it.

So a sensible leader, on hearing these threats, will let the experts do what they do.. and after the raids, the biggest in our nation... calm the nation, tell us that our safety and our way of life are in good hands; that the bad guys has and will be caught etc.

It is just too convenient the timing of the raids and the send offs and the new laws. 

I just hope the AFP leadership didn't politicise and jump the gun on this operation that netted one criminal. The operation had been since May, i heard from the Q&A panel... I'm guessing that when our agencies are on to people for that long, every one of them are being monitored and watch and wiretap... to raid them and managed to only charge one seems immature to me. But that's just me.

---

The sad thing is, as Chomsky replied when asked about security and war... is that yours, mine, our security play very little in the grand strategy of our leadership. Our safety are what these generals and young Napoleons considered acceptable collateral damage, acceptable blowback in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not excusing terrorism and terrorists, my safety is also at stake here... but when our gov't declare war on the enemy, sending fighter jets to "degrade and defeat" them... what do they expect the enemy to do, or want to do, to us? Just sit around digging tunnels?

Like that Israeli Defense Minister I heard from an interview... the guy is said to have thought that attacking Iran is not a problem... that Israel and the US can definitely take out Iran and Israel would only suffer around 500 civilian casualties, and he can live with that loss. Like that general, I'm sure the generals in Canberra have thought about collateral damage and its probabilities... and in their infinite wisdom, decide it's worth the price fighting ISIS.

Nothing wrong with that, that's just statecraft and war planning... Well, at least our security is beefed up.


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

banco said:


> Speaking of Churchill this Churchill quote remains bang on:
> 
> "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
> Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia
> ...




I like Churchill in general. I think he's a very smart man, a very capable leader... he's also very wise, funny and an imperialist racist who literally dream of empires and the good old days of Rome and Britain ruling the world.

You should quote what he said of Gandhi - a half-naked charlatan parading as peaceful civil leader trying to take the Crown Jewel away from the British Empire.

He's right on Gandhi I think. But he's in his racist imperialist mode with that quote on Islam.

Christianity sheltered science says the man who know history but forgot about the burning of witches; the flat-world civilisation; the banning of "dangerous" books by the Holy Father; the Immaculate conception of Christ...

The non-militant, non-proselytizing faith says the man who head the Colonial Empire that literally the sun never set upon because its subject tend to either clear or convert the native savages on literally every continent (beside Antarctica).

so he's a bit bias and selective here... But I too would be if my direct ancestor was the great Duke of Marlborough and my language and culture dominates the world.


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

Chris45 said:


> If you think nuclear missiles would ever be used to protect us from invasion by another state, you might enjoy this:





What the guy said is in line with what I'm saying... That with nuclear deterrence, wars between great powers -  like WW1, WW2, the Napoleonic wars etc... that kind of war for survival is very unlikely nowadays. Not impossible, but unlikely, or less likely.

So what the major powers like the US, the West/NATO, Aus [?], China, Russia, India etc... what these major powers would likely do is to exert their sphere of influence, or protect that sphere, onto surrounding, smaller, weaker states.

Since WW2, the US and the Soviets have been doing that through coup and friendly dictators.. fighting proxy wars to defend or gain influence. Be that stopping the domino of Communism in Korea or Vietnam and SE Asia; the ME and Eastern Europe... 

I'm no foreign policy expert but maybe we ought to rethink that kind of strategy. As Churchill said, you can't get richer by making the other guy poorer. Though he was referring to Communism... was thinking that perhaps the same can apply to international relations. 

I'm not saying nation building, though that is not a bad idea as long as we don't build it like we do Iraq and others... but there could be a case to make that helping dictators in resourced-rich countries so we can get cheaper gas or invade their airspace or land at will, that might no longer be as profitable as it used to.

A bit like smoking... the gov't didn't do much about it because the taxes are good and not many smokers are dying yet. When there's just too many sick Australian smokers that the tax revenue just can't really cover... change in policy. That or cut medicare and universal healthcare and i don't think the gov't will care so much.

Anyway, good comedy.


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

noco said:


> Why not laugh?....Laughter is the best medicine.
> 
> It is not strange to me because I have come across so many naive people who are able to see through a key hole with both eyes and that is because they are so narrow minded in being able to accept the truth.
> 
> ...




It's wrong to laugh at people not younger than me.

Don't get angry too much, might get ulcers. Try a kebab... though stay away from their snack pack... eat that and you will really believe they try to kill us through cholesterol.


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

bellenuit said:


> What a ridiculous conclusion. None of these were her reasons for the violence of Islam. They were just examples she gave of the contradictions between what we see is happening and the claim of Islam that it is the religion of peace.
> 
> She regards one of the main reasons that many Islamic communities, which previously were tolerant and all inclusive, have changed so drastically is due to what she called the "preacher teachers" that have taken over the mosques and schools in many Islamic and Western countries and preached intolerance of not only  other religions, but of those within their own Islamic faith that do not strictly adhere to a literal interpretation of the Quran and the Hadith. And this is obvious for all of us to see. Why are ordinary Australians, Brits and French joining groups like ISIS. It is because of the indoctrination they receive in their local mosques that teaches them nothing but hate. And we can see this in their demonstrations with even children holding placards demanding the beheading of those who insult the prophet or Islam. You can look up YouTube and you will find hundreds of videos of speeches given in mosques and schools that are promoting a level of intolerance and hate that is almost beyond belief.
> 
> ...




I have never excuse terrorism or violence - hence I was critical of Israel. haha

Careful what you say please, I've painted some 5 coats on my front doors and don't like it being kicked in. haha.

Look, I'm not saying what she suffered is right or justifiable... it's terrible. And I'm not saying what Islam or any idiotic religious practices are right.

I make fun, though i tend not to anymore, of all religions. You know, Muhammad went to the desert or the oasis and there hear God spoke to him and wrote down the words of God in the Koran... the Arab leaders at the time didn't believe it but thought how could a 40 something  year old illiterate trader with no education write something so beautiful like the language in the Koran, so it must be true... To me, Muhammad was just dehydrated or he taught himself to write and read, taught himself warfare and military arts that he conquered the ME.

I wouldn't say that to a Muslim the same as I wouldn't make fun of Christ and his miracles and birth to a Christian. 
I got a friend who got really insulted seeing Jurassic Park because dinosaurs are obviously fictional, God didn't create them at all. I didn't argue with him.

If i were to say what I think about Christianity to my mother or parents in law, or to my grand mother... she will beat the heck out of me, and my own mother too for raising me like that... So you know, don't make fun of people's faith. You can do it among non-believers, not as fun though but safety first.

So if ISIS is killing a lot of Muslims, is it Islam that is murderous or is it ISIS that is murderous?

I don't just watch or listen to Chomsky, though he's a very smart man. Smarter than I thought he was when I was young and thought he's just a liberal leftist peacenik.

I think I've answered your questions with the previous post...


----------



## luutzu (23 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> I think our drones, for instance are Israeli, which might prove alien to the US and the planes have proprietary ADF routines too.




I thought Israel also supply the US drones. But yea, don't think the US would find any weapon alien to it though, haha.

With the US Marine basing in Darwin, do we pay them to base there or do they pay us? This jump into war from Abbott makes me wonder.

Whatever happen to the good old days of playing deputy sheriff like in Vietnam and when McNamara recounts the US allies, Australia wasn't even mentioned.


----------



## noco (24 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> It's wrong to laugh at people not younger than me.
> 
> Don't get angry too much, might get ulcers. Try a kebab... though stay away from their snack pack... eat that and you will really believe they try to kill us through cholesterol.




Forget about your kebabs and snack packs, perhaps in 30 or so years you may have no choice but to eat Halal food if action is not taken now against these radical SISL idiots.....you might also be given 2 choices, join Islam or die.


http://www.halalchoices.com.au/what_is_halal.html


----------



## orr (24 September 2014)

Julia said:


> Could you then describe how you think the government should be handling the current situation?  You'd prefer they do nothing, just dismiss the threats as hyped up nonsense?
> 
> I don't think anyone has any appetite for involvement in any of this stuff.   But I can imagine the outrage if (or probably more accurately, when) an attack does occur, and the screams would be "what on earth were our intelligence agencies and our government doing while this was being planned?"!








I hope your thinking aligned to the above when Howard 'frog marched' the australian public off to Iraq on _hyped up nonsense_.
Abbott has plenty of reasons to 'blow hard' on this issue and Blowing hard isn't the way to best _handle the current situation! _for our national interest, but it certainly is for his. 

View attachment 59534


                   certainly the majority had no _appetite for any of this stuff_ in the very recent past.

Jonny didn't listen and neither will Cpt Hubris of Team australia..... Remind me, when was the last time a Labor government daubed the kaki to dig them selves out of their own political stupidity. 
nothing but Rancid gutless bullies.............
If it's the case that some injuries occur what of your freedoms would you happy to suspend?

I'll take the risk and keep what freedoms I have, and would like to have the one that Edward Snowden saw abused disregarded in his constitution.......... Only with great caution should you take to _embarrassing_ the powerful..... 'embarrassed' utterly utterly unbelievable


----------



## drsmith (24 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> *Christianity sheltered science* says the man who know history but forgot about the burning of witches; the flat-world civilisation; the banning of "dangerous" books by the Holy Father; the Immaculate conception of Christ...
> 
> The non-militant, non-proselytizing faith says the man who head the Colonial Empire that literally the sun never set upon because its subject tend to either clear or convert the native savages on literally every continent (beside Antarctica).
> 
> so he's a bit bias and selective here... But I too would be if my direct ancestor was the great Duke of Marlborough and my language and culture dominates the world.



The statement of Churchill's as quoted above was that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, not the other way around.

My bolds.


----------



## sptrawler (24 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> .
> 
> With the US Marine Whatever happen to the good old days of playing deputy sheriff like in Vietnam and when McNamara recounts the US allies, Australia wasn't even mentioned.




What happened to the good old days, when the only real religion in Australia was football and cricket?

When I arrived in Australia, as an eight year old from the U.K, I was amazed at the lack of hatred between catholics and protestants.

It was brilliant, religion wasn't even a topic of converstation between kids.

It's a shame our newer arrivals ,can't lift off the shackles of their previous life and become Aussies.


----------



## McLovin (24 September 2014)

sptrawler said:


> What happened to the good old days, when the only real religion in Australia was football and cricket?
> 
> When I arrived in Australia, as an eight year old from the U.K, I was amazed at the lack of hatred between catholics and protestants.
> 
> ...




I guess it depends when you were born. My grandfather turned down an AK and an OBE at different times in his life because of his experience with sectarianism growing up as an Irish Catholic in Sydney in the 20s and 30s. It receded after the War, although I'm not sure why.


----------



## luutzu (24 September 2014)

drsmith said:


> The statement of Churchill's as quoted above was that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, not the other way around.
> 
> My bolds.




opps. Thanks.

That statement is still false though. Science does not shelter any religion, not even Scientology.


----------



## drsmith (24 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> opps. Thanks.
> 
> That statement is still false though. Science does not shelter any religion, not even Scientology.



I don't know if its what Churchill meant but perhaps science has protected Christianity from itself.


----------



## DB008 (24 September 2014)

What an idiot.

Trying to stab a Vic Police Officer and a AFP officer.

*Teen terror suspect shot dead in Melbourne after stabbing two police officers*



> THE teen terror suspect who was gunned down by police in Melbourne was “angry” his passport had been taken from him and had just broken up with his girlfriend.
> 
> Numan Haider, 18, was shot by police after he stabbed two officers outside Endeavour Hills police station last night. It’s believed Haider may have been planning to behead police and post footage of the gruesome act online.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/national/teen-terror-suspect-shot-dead-in-melbourne-after-stabbing-two-police-officers/story-fncynjr2-1227068524947

Normal Society 1 / Brainwashed Islamic Idiot 0


----------



## noco (25 September 2014)

noco said:


> Forget about your kebabs and snack packs, perhaps in 30 or so years you may have no choice but to eat Halal food if action is not taken now against these radical SISL idiots.....you might also be given 2 choices, join Islam or die.
> 
> 
> http://www.halalchoices.com.au/what_is_halal.html




Just imagine an Australian Islamic state.

*Pubs goooonnne
Night clubs gooooonne
Breweries goooonnne
Vineyards goooonne
Gold Coast meter maids goooonnne*
*Pork pies goooonne*
*Ladies of leisure gooonne*
*Kings Cross Sydney gooonne*

What a dull life it would be if we can't drink, smoke and knock around with bad women.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2014)

noco said:


> Just imagine an Australian Islamic state.
> 
> *Pubs goooonnne
> Night clubs gooooonne
> ...




Maybe you couldn't even criticise Fabians.

Your life would be over


----------



## noco (25 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe you couldn't even criticise Fabians.
> 
> Your life would be over




Hmmmmm....so what has the Fabians got to do with this tread?

As I said before the Fabians are the lessor of two evils and while the Fabians are not in Government they cannot do the damage we all know about what happened from 2007 to 2013......one disaster after another.....Rudd/Gillard/ Rudd.......as one poster commented just recently, he misses the entertainment from the 3 ring circus with Rudd the clown and Gillard the ring master.


----------



## Julia (25 September 2014)

We seem to have so quickly adjusted our expectations that only scant mention in the media occurs when a French tourist is beheaded in Algeria, his assassins kindly explaining that his death is in retaliation for the French bombing.

The assertion that the media is hyping things up doesn't seem to apply here, neither is there any comment on this forum.  It will do wonders for tourism.


----------



## Knobby22 (25 September 2014)

Julia said:


> We seem to have so quickly adjusted our expectations that only scant mention in the media occurs when a French tourist is beheaded in Algeria, his assassins kindly explaining that his death is in retaliation for the French bombing.
> 
> The assertion that the media is hyping things up doesn't seem to apply here, neither is there any comment on this forum.  It will do wonders for tourism.




Short attention spans, they will have to do something worse soon to stay on the front page.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2014)

Julia said:


> We seem to have so quickly adjusted our expectations that only scant mention in the media occurs when a French tourist is beheaded in Algeria, his assassins kindly explaining that his death is in retaliation for the French bombing.
> 
> The assertion that the media is hyping things up doesn't seem to apply here, neither is there any comment on this forum.  It will do wonders for tourism.




I really wonder whether gross publicisation of beheadings is just playing into the shock and horror trap that the madmen want us to fall into. 

We can't take back what happened, but neither do we have to give these people the oxygen they need to spread their terror.


----------



## dutchie (25 September 2014)

Uniformed Australian Defence Force member allegedly attacked by men of middle eastern appearance in western Sydney


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...n-western-sydney/story-fni0cx12-1227070513974


----------



## dutchie (25 September 2014)

dutchie said:


> Uniformed Australian Defence Force member allegedly attacked by men of middle eastern appearance in western Sydney
> 
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...n-western-sydney/story-fni0cx12-1227070513974




All Defence personnel ordered not to wear uniforms off base.


----------



## noco (25 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I really wonder whether gross publicisation of beheadings is just playing into the shock and horror trap that the madmen want us to fall into.
> 
> We can't take back what happened, but neither do we have to give these people the oxygen they need to spread their terror.





I am sure you are right but how do you stop the media around the world from publishing this stuff.

It is all about headlines to sell papers and the radicals exploit it to the fullest to spread their intimation and fear as well as costing the Western World heaps of money to counter them.

Not only do they want world domination but they are also weakening our economy by us having to spend so much money chasing them around the world....these radicals live and fight on the smell of an oily rag where as the Western World go in multimillion dollar equipment.


----------



## luutzu (26 September 2014)

noco said:


> Just imagine an Australian Islamic state.
> 
> *Pubs goooonnne
> Night clubs gooooonne
> ...




But you could have multiple wives and a harem of concubines if you like. OK, one wife is more than enough, haha.

But see noco, how could those idiots go anywhere and win anyone over when they're such party poopers.

On a serious note, you should try their al Wafa [?] Charcoal Chickens. Crispy charcoal chicken in warm Lebanese bread with thick layer of hummus, dipped in creamy garlic sauce, with chips on the side. Chips on the side! Those infidels! Then wash it down with a couple litre of cool water, throughout the day... haha... it's pretty good.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 September 2014)

dutchie said:


> All Defence personnel ordered not to wear uniforms off base.




A pretty  sorry state of affairs when soldiers can't wear uniforms in public without fear of being attacked.

Maybe a few armed squadrons of them marching through Bankstown might make some of the thugs think twice.


----------



## dutchie (26 September 2014)

Defence personnel assault allegation withdrawn 

http://www.news.com.au/national/def...gation-withdrawn/story-fncynjr2-1227071375493


----------



## noco (26 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> A pretty  sorry state of affairs when soldiers can't wear uniforms in public without fear of being attacked.
> 
> Maybe a few armed squadrons of them marching through Bankstown might make some of the thugs think twice.




It is called *intimidation and fear.
*

This is the way these radicals operate.....they do not want our citizens to live a normal way of life....they seek to disrupt us as much as possible.

I have a message for the so called moderates who say they do not condone this type of behavior.... you become the Muslim 'policemen' and blow the whistle on those who you suspect of being a radical......you are on the ground around them......you are the ones who pray with these radicals......you are the ones who could obtain the inside information......you are the ones who could bring these radicals to account and let us live a normal way of life........if you are not prepared to assist, then be prepared to accept those hot headed Australians with a bee in their bonnet who will seek retaliation....BTW, I am not one of them.

The moderate Muslims should be a part of 'TEAM AUSTRALIA' and work with us to continue the safe way of life we have always known.


----------



## orr (26 September 2014)

dutchie said:


> Defence personnel assault allegation withdrawn
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/def...gation-withdrawn/story-fncynjr2-1227071375493




This is a public mischief that beggars belief; Under the circumstances akin to shouting fire in crowded theatre.. You only have to see the effect on the _'less balanced'_ in this thread to imagine the consequences on the broader intemperate elements and _'under equipped'_ in society.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 September 2014)

orr said:


> This is a public mischief that beggars belief; Under the circumstances akin to shouting fire in crowded theatre.. You only have to see the effect on the _'less balanced'_ in this thread to imagine the consequences on the broader intemperate elements and _'under equipped'_ in society.




The story gives no reason why the complaint was withdrawn.

Was it false in the first place or just dropped in order not to "offend" anyone ?

I suppose we may never know.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (26 September 2014)

I have tried not to reply to this thread, but failed, so here goes.

Firstly I believe all godbotherers and all gods to be muppets, set to frighten those who are prone to fright. 

So from Allah to Yahweh, Diana to Dionysius, Baal to Belzibub, bugger off the lot of you. 

Next we have godbotherers. 

So from Islamists to Christians, Protestants to Pharisees, bugger off.

All gods and godbotherers, go to dust. There is no heaven, nor hell. There is life and death, nothing else. 

Whether the 100 year Jihad has begun or not, is immaterial. 

It is all to do with hate, and war, and killing of the "other".

It is dressed up as religious by buffed Islamist men, with big pects, beards and small balls. 

gg

ps  why do Islamists write wtf after the name of Allah? 

gg


----------



## noco (26 September 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have tried not to reply to this thread, but failed, so here goes.
> 
> Firstly I believe all godbotherers and all gods to be muppets, set to frighten those who are prone to fright.
> 
> ...




GG, that took a lot of gutz to express your thoughts on the current situation.

Take some comfort in it all because I am sure you will have at least 12,000,000 supporters around Australia who would be thinking the same thing.


----------



## DB008 (26 September 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> ps  why do Islamists write wtf after the name of Allah?




pbuh? Peace be upon him

Someone a while ago was cracking joke along the lines of..."Peanut Butter....", you get the idea.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 September 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I have tried not to reply to this thread, but failed, so here goes.
> 
> Firstly I believe all godbotherers and all gods to be muppets, set to frighten those who are prone to fright.
> 
> ...





I'm coming around to your way of thinking on this gg


----------



## Chris45 (26 September 2014)

GG, I take it your attempt to revisit your religion failed? 

The Islamic eschatology is interesting. Plenty of signs there to get them excited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_eschatology

I read that what's motivating the ISIS/ISIL fanatics is the belief that they're fighting the battle of Armageddon because they think the Arab Spring is one of the end-time signs predicted by their Qur'an.

Another sign was the birth of a "cyclops baby" a few years ago.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-use-picture-cyclops-baby-recruit-fighters-apocalyptic-battle-1465323

They believe that they will be victorious over us infidels and will rule the world and establish their Taliban style paradise throughout.

I think we're in for a long war against these muslim morons.


----------



## noco (26 September 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm coming around to your way of thinking on this gg




Rumpy, it is so good to see us both signing the same song for a change.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 September 2014)

noco said:


> Rumpy, it is so good to see us both signing the same song for a change.




Yes noco, the sooner people escape from the slavery of their religions the better off they and the rest of us will be.


----------



## noco (27 September 2014)

Muslims: Can a Good One Be A Good American or Canadian?



This is very interesting and we all need to read it from start to
finish. And send it on to everyone.

Maybe this is why our American Muslims are so quiet and not speaking
out about any atrocities.

Can a good Muslim be a good American? This question was forwarded to a
friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:



Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon god of Arabia .



Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah
except Islam. (Quran,2:256)(Koran)


scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of
Islam and the Quran.



Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he
turns in prayer five times a day.



Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make
friends with Christians or Jews.



Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual
leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America,
the great Satan.



Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four Women and
beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him. (Quran 4:34 )



Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American
Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes
the Bible to be corrupt.



Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not
allow freedom of religion and expression.
Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either
dictatorial or autocratic.



Spiritually - no. Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The
Christian's God is loving and kind,
while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever
called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names.


Therefore, after much study and deliberation... Perhaps we should be
very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot
be both 'good' Muslims and 'good' Americans. Call it what you wish
it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who
understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.
The religious war is bigger than we know or understand!

Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.

SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
THE MARINES WANT THIS TO ROLL ALL OVER THE U.S.


----------



## luutzu (27 September 2014)

noco said:


> Muslims: Can a Good One Be A Good American or Canadian?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





American Soldier stands up against racism:


If any of what's said up there is true, how then do you explain the vast majority of law-abiding Muslims who survives and thrive, or at least making a normal living, in the West all these decades, if not centuries.

But don't let reality stand in the way of a good theory.


----------



## noco (27 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> American Soldier stands up against racism:
> 
> 
> If any of what's said up there is true, how then do you explain the vast majority of law-abiding Muslims who survives and thrive, or at least making a normal living, in the West all these decades, if not centuries.
> ...





They are sleeping logs and will awake when told to do so at the right time.


----------



## luutzu (28 September 2014)

noco said:


> They are sleeping logs and will awake when told to do so at the right time.




Life's too short to hate some one quarter of mankind noco.

Imagine walking down the street, OK, not your street necessarily, but walking around and hate or be suspicious of every fourth person you meet. 

OK OK, I suspect everyone, but that's because they're human.


----------



## noco (28 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> Life's too short to hate some one quarter of mankind noco.
> 
> Imagine walking down the street, OK, not your street necessarily, but walking around and hate or be suspicious of every fourth person you meet.
> 
> OK OK, I suspect everyone, but that's because they're human.





Excuse me, where did I mention the word "HATE".


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (28 September 2014)

noco said:


> Rumpy, it is so good to see us both signing the same song for a change.




As the youtube of the gallant US Soldier demonstrates, most of us just want an easy life and live to allow others to live and let live.

Townsville as a garrison city is a target for these numpty terrorists, and has it's share of extremists from both right and left.

Small in number, thankfully, the majority however are suspicious of Islamism and value the freedoms that traditional Australia has delivered to present generations. 

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out, but I can tell you, Townsville will not change it's allegiance to all that is good, fair and right in Australia.  

gg


----------



## luutzu (28 September 2014)

noco said:


> Excuse me, where did I mention the word "HATE".




OK, maybe "hate" was too strong a word. Distrust?


----------



## noco (28 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> OK, maybe "hate" was too strong a word. Distrust?




And can you blame anyone for not trusting them?


----------



## luutzu (28 September 2014)

noco said:


> And can you blame anyone for not trusting them?




So why can't they be trusted? They're all terrorists?

Do I really need to tell you what people are just... people? There's criminals, idiots, thieves and liars... there's good and learned, hardworking and lazy people in every culture, in every age group, in every religion.

If you read some history, it will become clear very quickly that no religion, no country, no race... no civilisations ever have a monopoly on good or evil, oppressor or the oppressed. But if you want those idiot politicians to tell you otherwise then that's cool. I just think life's too short to just indiscriminately distrust an entire people. Heck, they're not even the same people.


----------



## noco (29 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> So why can't they be trusted? They're all terrorists?
> 
> Do I really need to tell you what people are just... people? There's criminals, idiots, thieves and liars... there's good and learned, hardworking and lazy people in every culture, in every age group, in every religion.
> 
> If you read some history, it will become clear very quickly that no religion, no country, no race... no civilisations ever have a monopoly on good or evil, oppressor or the oppressed. But if you want those idiot politicians to tell you otherwise then that's cool. I just think life's too short to just indiscriminately distrust an entire people. Heck, they're not even the same people.




What a wonderful world it would be without religion, politics and the media.....the three evils of the world as we know it today.......left right left right left right and then you see many with two left feet and a brain the size of a pea.


----------



## Tisme (29 September 2014)

noco said:


> They are sleeping logs and will awake when told to do so at the right time.






"My father taught me many things here ”” he taught me in this room. He taught me ”” keep your friends close but your enemies closer." Michael Corleone

The USA reckons they have patent on that pearl, but I have feeling the Muslims knew it long before Michael did.

I'm wondering how Sun Tzu and Machiavelli would view the efforts and strategies being employed ?


----------



## luutzu (29 September 2014)

noco said:


> What a wonderful world it would be without religion, politics and the media.....the three evils of the world as we know it today.......left right left right left right and then you see many with two left feet and a brain the size of a pea.




Not that i'm ever very good at it but it's hard to pick up sarcasm so I'll just take it at face value.

The Media we cant live without... i mean, without it I wouldn't have known that George Clooney was having a wedding in Venice, wouldn't have known how such a chubby dorky kid could grow up and be a movie star and throw a four day wedding bash... that and there's ebola killing a lot of (poor) people.

Politics we need to have. Just with politics come the Lords of Man who wouldn't be contend with getting roads build and rubbish collected on time; so politics comes great men and great men must project great power, and no greater power can be shown than the ability to kill people, destroy towns and cities and call it peace.

Religion I don't think we could ever get rid of. It's either some God in the sky or his representative on Earth, or the Flag or one deity or another. The Communists outlaw religion and made themselves the new gods.


----------



## luutzu (29 September 2014)

Tisme said:


> "My father taught me many things here ”” he taught me in this room. He taught me ”” keep your friends close but your enemies closer." Michael Corleone
> 
> The USA reckons they have patent on that pearl, but I have feeling the Muslims knew it long before Michael did.
> 
> I'm wondering how Sun Tzu and Machiavelli would view the efforts and strategies being employed ?




There's this scene in Disney's Hercule where Hercule chop off this monster's head, and with each one he chopped two grows out... So Hercule keeps on chopping and chopping and more and more heads keep showing up attacking him. 

Lucky for Herc, his trainer shouts: Will you stop with the head chopping thing!


----------



## Craton (29 September 2014)

I like what GG posted starting with: 







> I have tried not to reply to this thread, but failed, so here goes.




An observation/question as Islam is portrayed so negatively.

We live in a dynamic and ever changing world. I don't think that with the vast accumulation of knowledge and with the social change the world has gone through since the Christian/Islam scriptures were written, that these "bibles" would have the same relevance to us now without some adjustments.

Christianity has accepted this fact and has changed/is changing  (E.G. allowing women into the clergy) as acknowledgement that our time is vastly different from the days of the Old and New Testaments.

Thus I ask, has Islam adopted to the ever changing dynamics of the modern, interconnected world or does Islam steadfastly refuse to change with the times?


----------



## luutzu (29 September 2014)

Craton said:


> I like what GG posted starting with:
> 
> An observation/question as Islam is portrayed so negatively.
> 
> ...




Religion, by definition, does not, could not, change with the time - it's the words of God, and unless God comes back to Earth and tell another Prophet or Christ returns and said otherwise, it is as written.

What could change is the attitudes of its practitioners/followers. Most are selective in what they get out of the religion. Some kinda ignore the "help the poor", "it is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of the needle than for a money changer to enter the kingdom of heaven" [?]... and some use it to unite their soldiers and wage Jihad and Crusades.

If you use the same measure as most does nowadays and see Islam as violent because of the terrorists - waging war, hating women and what not... use that measure on Christianity or any religion, and you'll see how insane all religion is, how violent and repressive all of them are, still is.

I mean, the English-speaking people are not just English from England now right? It's the world language pretty much. English and Spanish being spoken in places that are not England or Spain... that didn't happen because the natives find these two language pleasing and superior to theirs.

We don't go to the ME to spend blood and trillions building a democracy there do we? A lot of towns and cities could do with a couple billions or trillions. I could do with a couple million that costs each tomahawk missile.

If we think it's tough right now in Australia, what with having to call in the bomb squad and putting terminals in lock down because some guy forgot his bag or too busy with an iPad... imagine living in one of the Arab countries and seeing terrorists (and some civilians) being blown up from the sky every now and then. You'd probably think differently about Western democracy and enlightened Christian values.

----
In our Western democracies... Women didn't get to vote until some 80 or 100 years ago. Before that they were, literally, the property of their father or their husband.

So all these talk of Christianity being enlightened now, more progressive... it's all rubbish fed and believe by Christians. All the advances and liberties in Christian societies are so because it manages to separate Church from State. Even with that separation, "the gays" still have problems being seen as equal citizens with equal rights.


Don't know, we ought to be a bit nervous with deciders who actually believe in some invisible God... whether they call that dude God or Allah or Yahweh.


----------



## luutzu (30 September 2014)

John Oliver on Drone Strikes - We've turned clear blue skies into a terrifying, imminent death from above.

Towards the end, there's this 13 year old Pakistani kid whose grandmother was killed in a strike said he prefer dark cloudy skies, that during such time, he can be at ease for a while because he know drones can't fly or see in that weather - I think he's probably wrong about that soon.


----------



## Craton (30 September 2014)

luutzu said:


> Religion, by definition, does not, could not, change with the time - it's the words of God, and unless God comes back to Earth and tell another Prophet or Christ returns and said otherwise, it is as written.



Thanks for the reply luutzu. 
Of course, how could I forget the term, "...it is written".



> What could change is the attitudes of its practitioners/followers. Most are selective in what they get out of the religion. Some kinda ignore the "help the poor", "it is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of the needle than for a money changer to enter the kingdom of heaven" [?]... and some use it to unite their soldiers and wage Jihad and Crusades.
> 
> If you use the same measure as most does nowadays and see Islam as violent because of the terrorists - waging war, hating women and what not... use that measure on Christianity or any religion, and you'll see how insane all religion is, how violent and repressive all of them are, still is.
> 
> I mean, the English-speaking people are not just English from England now right? It's the world language pretty much. English and Spanish being spoken in places that are not England or Spain... that didn't happen because the natives find these two language pleasing and superior to theirs.




Yeah, a lot of wrong has been and is still being done in the name of religion. I was thinking that the Buddhists weren't included but then remembered the Tibetan monks and the Chinese. I also cringe at what the West has done when I look down the annals of history. From the Crusades, the New World to our very own indigenous tribes.

Just an aside. I thought it was a toss up between English and French as the world language?



> We don't go to the ME to spend blood and trillions building a democracy there do we? A lot of towns and cities could do with a couple billions or trillions. I could do with a couple million that costs each tomahawk missile.




Ditto


> If we think it's tough right now in Australia, what with having to call in the bomb squad and putting terminals in lock down because some guy forgot his bag or too busy with an iPad... imagine living in one of the Arab countries and seeing terrorists (and some civilians) being blown up from the sky every now and then. You'd probably think differently about Western democracy and enlightened Christian values.




Both sides very much likes the us and them attitude, propagated and nurtured.



> ----
> In our Western democracies... Women didn't get to vote until some 80 or 100 years ago. Before that they were, literally, the property of their father or their husband.
> 
> So all these talk of Christianity being enlightened now, more progressive... it's all rubbish fed and believe by Christians. All the advances and liberties in Christian societies are so because it manages to separate Church from State. Even with that separation, "the gays" still have problems being seen as equal citizens with equal rights.




Christianity being enlightened?
Not until the Pope allows access to the archives in the Vatican!

Now don't get me wrong, I certainly don't think we of the West are perfect but at least with the separation of Church from State and over time, came the freedoms we have and to express our views which are allowed to exist without fear of a beheading.







> Don't know, we ought to be a bit nervous with deciders who actually believe in some invisible God... whether they call that dude God or Allah or Yahweh.





To me, the idea of an invisible God seems too far removed from the world of today compared to yesteryear. Religion means little to me as I rebelled against my Catholic upbringing a long time ago however, because of these brain washed morons, religion still impacts on me like the god bothers that knock on my door. Worse, the fanatical extremists of Islam.

So there lies the issue, the clash of religion against people, not people against people. Although, more and more it's drones against people. That being so, there will never be peace!


----------



## Value Collector (30 September 2014)

> Religion, by definition, does not, could not, change with the time - it's the words of God, and unless God comes back to Earth and tell another Prophet or Christ returns and said otherwise, it is as written




Even a new prophet wouldn't change religion, it would just cause a new religion to spring up.

Eg, Jesus coming didn't change the Jewish, Muhammad coming didn't change the Catholics, and Josesh smith didn't change the muslims, catholics or jews.

prophets are always around, the current religions just reject them, then they start a new splinter group, hence the 10's of thousands of religions.


----------



## bellenuit (30 September 2014)

*Schoolgirl jihadis: the female Islamists leaving home to join Isis fighters*

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-islamists-leaving-home-join-isis-iraq-syria


----------



## Value Collector (1 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> John Oliver on Drone Strikes - We've turned clear blue skies into a terrifying, imminent death from above.
> 
> Towards the end, there's this 13 year old Pakistani kid whose grandmother was killed in a strike said he prefer dark cloudy skies, that during such time, he can be at ease for a while because he know drones can't fly or see in that weather - I think he's probably wrong about that soon.





Why would you have to know the name of the person before you authorise a drone strike, they get hung up the "they don't know who it was" statement, you don't need to stop and check someones ID, finger prints and next of kin to recognise them as a combatant.


----------



## luutzu (1 October 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Why would you have to know the name of the person before you authorise a drone strike, they get hung up the "they don't know who it was" statement, you don't need to stop and check someones ID, finger prints and next of kin to recognise them as a combatant.




I always assume that drone strikes are only use when we have intel on the ground, that the intel calls up and say start your drones, the bad guy is there and in that car and good to kill. 

For all I know that's how drone strikes are carried out. But from Oliver's take, doesn't sound like that's how it is.
That drones are flown 24/7 and we see what look suspicious and guess that that's the bad guy/s and kill.

There's a recent article from a former Drone pilot/controller - from Salon.com, directed from HuffingtonPost. Not sure of its authenticity since the author is anonymous, but he claims that his team of 100 drone pilots, based in the US, flew these drones 24/7, in 12 hour shifts and on some days, see nothing and some day see devastating damages and death.

That 10 of his teammates have been caught drink driving, two committed suicide, and marital and family issues... the pressure to decide life and death from a black/white, grainy monitor screen... it can't be easy on the conscience.


----------



## luutzu (1 October 2014)

Value Collector said:


> prophets are always around, the current religions just reject them, then they start a new splinter group, hence the 10's of thousands of religions.




True. Stand corrected.

New prophets tend to rise from its critics, from those who know too much about too many religion and thought they could do one better 

One might even stop collecting under valued stocks and start collecting lost souls. haha

There's Lincoln who made speeches pointing out the flaws and insanity in the Bible in his younger years, then when running for politics and his opponent made too much of an issue of him being Godless... change his tune and became America's most religious president.


----------



## luutzu (1 October 2014)

Craton said:


> Thanks for the reply luutzu.
> Of course, how could I forget the term, "...it is written".
> 
> 
> ...




I think for most people who follow it, religion is a positive thing. But yea, problem with being religious is at some point, some in power will abuse it and take you and your country to war over it, or make decisions that god might like but the modern world shouldn't.

You've raised interesting points... Will try to discuss it when I can think straight.


----------



## Value Collector (1 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> I always assume that drone strikes are only use when we have intel on the ground, that the intel calls up and say start your drones, the bad guy is there and in that car and good to kill.
> 
> For all I know that's how drone strikes are carried out. But from Oliver's take, doesn't sound like that's how it is.
> That drones are flown 24/7 and we see what look suspicious and guess that that's the bad guy/s and kill.
> ...




Drones are used for all sorts of missions, it's amazing at the number of applications they have in the modern theatre of operations, troops on the ground can request drone support to take a fly over video of a route they have to patrol prior to the mission, so they have an idea of the routes vuneralable points etc and can plan for them.

Drones can conduct routine patrols along main transport routes looking for people planting road side bombs, or laying in ambush etc, 

Take aerial photogaraphy of villages and compounds prior to our troops raiding or patroling through.

Troops can request drone support during a contact, so drones can be an eye in the sky providing information about enemy and civilians movements that the troops on the ground can't see.

If needed the drones can provide information and  limited fire support into contacts when helicopter support is unavailable.

Drones are also used in all sorts of special operations and surveilance missions. but just like a helicopter, they will be opportunistic and attack targets that present them selves.

eg, If an armed drone is tasked to make a video of a route fly over for an upcoming patrol and happens to catch some one laying a roadside bomb they will probably attack them.



> That 10 of his teammates have been caught drink driving, two committed suicide, and marital and family issues... the pressure to decide life and death from a black/white, grainy monitor screen... it can't be easy on the conscience




Yes, it could be a very high pressure job sometimes, and you don't have to be on the ground to suffer PTSD. PTSD is a fact of life for all sorts of groups involved in high pressure situations, whether they be troops on the ground or helicoter and drone pilots and crews.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 October 2014)

> Drones are used for all sorts of missions, it's amazing at the number of applications they have in the modern theatre of operations,




Indeed yes, they provide a lot of video at football matches.

A few of them to take out some Hawthorn players last week would have been good.


----------



## dutchie (1 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> A few of them to take out some Hawthorn players last week would have been good.




LOL


----------



## Calliope (1 October 2014)

> Then there are the Greens. Adam Bandt just couldn’t help himself in Canberra yesterday as raids occurred in his electorate. He simultaneously demanded a briefing and rushed to offer a diagnosis of the problem and blame the government ”” even while police were still at locations collecting evidence. Mr Bandt referred to high unemployment and cuts to programs, suggesting we ask why people were “feeling disengaged and disconnected” from society. “I’m very, very worried that, at a rate of knots under this government, we’re going in the opposite direction and that is only going to fuel division and disaffection



,
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...tremists-funding/story-e6frg71x-1227075757887


----------



## luutzu (1 October 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Drones are used for all sorts of missions, it's amazing at the number of applications they have in the modern theatre of operations, troops on the ground can request drone support to take a fly over video of a route they have to patrol prior to the mission, so they have an idea of the routes vuneralable points etc and can plan for them.
> 
> Drones can conduct routine patrols along main transport routes looking for people planting road side bombs, or laying in ambush etc,
> 
> ...




Oh yea, I've heard of various types and sizes of drones, for various purposes. Was referring to those Predator Drones, those attack ones carrying Hellfire missiles or something.

I thought those were mission specific whereas the surveillance ones are 24/7. But that might not be the case... where Predator Drones are also 24/7.

Whatever is the case, to the people in those countries, it's all the same. That we, the West, does not respect their sovereign borders and wages war on them at will, war that in most cases hasn't been declared on their country at all.

Reminds me of that scene in "Dr Strangelove" where the US fly a dozen or so B52s around and above the USSR, carrying nukes and will unload whenever the order came.

While the current drone programme is not Mutually Assured Destruction, it's still pretty insane to me. A few foreign policy experts I've watched said drones are the most effective terrorist-creating machine ever used by the US. The idea that we are able to watch, follow and kill any enemy, anywhere, in any country (besides the big guys)... that might sound like a good idea, probably up there with the ultimates in power projection... but I don't know.

It might be better that if we have to offend a country's sovereignty, their airspace and kill bad guys on their territories... drone strikes is not exactly a surgical, silent way to do bad things to bad people (and a few collateral damages) - for good reasons or otherwise, disrepecting people's armed forces and security forces... maybe do it for big targets like bin Laden, or to prevent clear and present danger. Do otherwise might not be effective, and we can forget about morality or international law.


----------



## DB008 (4 October 2014)

*Islamic State beheads British aid worker Alan Henning in new video*



> AN internet video released on Friday purports to show an Islamic State fanatic beheading British hostage Alan Henning and threatening yet another American captive, the fourth such killing carried out by the extremist group now targeted in US-led air strikes.
> 
> The video mirrored other beheading videos shot by the Islamic State group, which now holds territory along the border of Syria and Iraq. It ended with an Islamic State fighter threatening a man they identified as an American, Peter Kassig, who, like Henning, was a volunteer in an aid convoy.





http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/islamic-state-beheads-british-aid-worker-alan-henning-in-new-video/story-fnh81ifq-1227079715916


----------



## noco (5 October 2014)

I could not stop listening to Brigitte Gabriel about radical Islam in Lebanon who is now an American citizen.

She it explains so well what is happening in the Western World and I sure hope the Americans sit up and take notice before it is too late.

She talks about the infiltration of the Western World and how the children in America are being brain washed particularly in the universities.

She talks about how the Muslims have dominated the Christians in Lebanon.

This is a must listen from beginning to end. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFO1AtjoUoo&noredirect=1

And this is what they are saying about Obama.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VC4ea24_mQ


----------



## noco (6 October 2014)

Where is Ed Kusek during the past weeks with all this Islamic radical disturbance?

Ed Kusek the Muslim LABOR MP who took his oath on the Koran when he was sworn into parliament.

Ed Kusek is very conspicuous by his absence......not one word of criticism on his Muslim radical brotherhood.


----------



## DB008 (6 October 2014)

noco said:


> I could not stop listening to Brigitte Gabriel about radical Islam in Lebanon who is now an American citizen.
> 
> She it explains so well what is happening in the Western World and I sure hope the Americans sit up and take notice before it is too late.
> 
> ...




Brigitte Gabriel - Put her on Q & A.....


----------



## DB008 (6 October 2014)

Front Page "The Independent" - UK


----------



## noco (6 October 2014)

DB008 said:


> Brigitte Gabriel - Put her on Q & A.....




Could you imagine Tony Jones inviting her on Q & A ?

Pigs might fly too!!!!


----------



## noco (6 October 2014)

This explains the reason why Israel must retain the occupation of the West Bank.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hZ6SlSqq0


----------



## So_Cynical (6 October 2014)

noco said:


> This explains the reason why Israel must retain the occupation of the West Bank.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hZ6SlSqq0




That video Explains the Military and Defence reasons why Israel must retain the occupation of the West Bank.

A political solution that supports a Palestinian state with fair borders, compensation and mutual respect with result in Israel not being in a state of war, therefore not needing to think defensively...Israel must embrace the inevitable.


----------



## noco (6 October 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> That video Explains the Military and Defence reasons why Israel must retain the occupation of the West Bank.
> 
> A political solution that supports a Palestinian state with fair borders, compensation and mutual respect with result in Israel not being in a state of war, therefore not needing to think defensively...Israel must embrace the inevitable.




And what is the inevitable?

Did you listen to the whole of that U-Tube, if you didn't, then I suggest you do.


----------



## luutzu (7 October 2014)

noco said:


> This explains the reason why Israel must retain the occupation of the West Bank.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hZ6SlSqq0




Dam. 
I don't think the West Bank or Gaza is enough. 
I think Israel must also control Jordan, Syria, Lebanon... must also control Iran, the entire Middle East... then must also control Europe, control Russia, control Africa, India... then the entire world for it to be safe.

What world does these video makers live in.

But let say the premise is true - that Israel must control the West Bank's air, land, roads, borders... must control and force the Palestinians there to be unarmed, without a defense force.. that all these must be done in order to keep Israel safe.

If that's true, why then does Israel keep expanding its settlements into the West Bank? Why bring more and more of its people into and closer to the other Arab terrorist states?


----------



## Macquack (7 October 2014)

noco said:


> This explains the reason why Israel must retain the occupation of the West Bank.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hZ6SlSqq0




Noco, you must be jewish???


----------



## noco (7 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> Noco, you must be jewish???




And how did you work that out Macquack?

You are way off the mark.

Perhaps I could say you are a Muslim being anti Jewish.


----------



## noco (7 October 2014)

I think some of you fellows should listen to that U-Tube again.

It was a UN resolution 242 after the 1967 6 day war with the Arabs that allowed Israel to occupy the West Bank, the Golan heights and the Gaza strip.

The Palestinians told Israel if Israel hand back the Gaza strip, they would guarantee peace...of course Hamas did not recognize that agreement nor did they accept the UN resolution 242.

So please listen again and you might learn something about the truth.


----------



## Macquack (7 October 2014)

noco said:


> I think some of you fellows should listen to that U-Tube again.
> 
> It was a UN resolution 242 after the 1967 6 day war with the Arabs that allowed Israel to occupy the West Bank, the Golan heights and the Gaza strip.
> 
> ...




"*Jews have been expelled from 109 Nations" *(and more...) 



Can't blame the muslems for all of that history.


----------



## noco (7 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> "*Jews have been expelled from 109 Nations" *(and more...)
> 
> 
> 
> Can't blame the muslems for all of this history.





Wow Macquack, you are desperate......Now those same countries are faced with the same problem but this time it is Islam.


----------



## Macquack (7 October 2014)

noco said:


> Wow Macquack, you are desperate......Now those same countries are faced with the same problem but this time it is Islam.




Noco, the "jews" are not the "chosen people". They are just pedalers of propaganda.


----------



## luutzu (7 October 2014)

noco said:


> I think some of you fellows should listen to that U-Tube again.
> 
> It was a UN resolution 242 after the 1967 6 day war with the Arabs that allowed Israel to occupy the West Bank, the Golan heights and the Gaza strip.
> 
> ...




From memory, the 1967 war got Israel, i.e. expand Israel's territories, to what it is today - excluding the West Bank and Gaza. This mean Israel then, based on that 1967 Green Line, would legally own some 80% of historic Palestine.

The entire world, even the US, agrees that that 1967 border is where Israel ought to be... I think the UN made an exception to the general rule that no nation is to take new territories from war. Israel did expand and thus committed war crime - but the world let it slide.


Not happy with 80% of what was Palestine, Israel, citing historic, biblical, security etc. reasons, keeps expanding new settlements, further and further into the West Bank - taking the best land, controlling all water resources; segregating the West bank into cantons where normal travel, visits or business among Palestinians within the West Bank an almost impossible thing to do - check points, dirt roads or a couple highly congested roads with checkpoints for Palestinians while Israelis have their motor ways and speed past these sub-human miseries.

After the 51 day war this August, it further increase its settlements by 3000m2[?] - its largest since 1967 I think - again in the West Bank. The spoils of war I guess.

Next, it'll be war with Iran. Though I think Iran just had an official visit from China and two of its warships.. maybe Iran's nuclear problem will be fixed soon and war just might not be necessary.


----------



## luutzu (7 October 2014)

noco said:


> Wow Macquack, you are desperate......Now those same countries are faced with the same problem but this time it is Islam.




So the Jewish are, were, as terrorising terrorists as the Muslims?


----------



## luutzu (7 October 2014)

War against ISIS costs US $1.1B since June
http://www.ibtimes.com/war-isis-iraq-syria-has-cost-us-11b-june-pentagon-1700256

Saw on some news show estimates for "moderate" airstrikes alone would cost US some $200-$300 million *per month*; Last year or in 2011, war in Iraq costs US $106 Billion.

Man, do they just print money and that's it?


----------



## noco (8 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> So the Jewish are, were, as terrorising terrorists as the Muslims?




Hardly.....how can you brand the current Israeli regime as terrorists.... .you are just making things up and twisting things to suit your own argument.

It is obvious you and Macquack are anti Jews and pro Muslim and you are in favor of ISIS killing and beheading innocent people....Shame on you


----------



## luutzu (8 October 2014)

noco said:


> Hardly.....how can you brand the current Israeli regime as terrorists.... .you are just making things up and twisting things to suit your own argument.
> 
> It is obvious you and Macquack are anti Jews and pro Muslim and you are in favor of ISIS killing and beheading innocent people....Shame on you




Come on noco, don't say stuff like that in this climate. Took me a while to get my kid to sleep, helicopter raids would waste all that effort. haha

Macquack use Jefferson as his icon... Jefferson!...  we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal.

Anyway, I think we shouldn't group all Arabs as one entity with one interest... same as you shouldn't group Jewish people with Israel and its policies.


----------



## DeepState (8 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> War against ISIS costs US $1.1B since June
> http://www.ibtimes.com/war-isis-iraq-syria-has-cost-us-11b-june-pentagon-1700256
> 
> Saw on some news show estimates for "moderate" airstrikes alone would cost US some $200-$300 million *per month*; Last year or in 2011, war in Iraq costs US $106 Billion.
> ...




Apparently not.  

What does $300m *per month *translate to as a proportion of the defence budget? Here's a clue: quite a bit less than 1%.

What would that make the expense relative to the size of the Federal Reserve's balance sheet? Quite a bit less than the above.  

Quite-a bit-less squared. QUABL-Squared.  A new kind of financial scare-mongering derivative.


----------



## noco (8 October 2014)

I'll bet he will be blocked by the Green/Labor coalition.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...bott_wants_powers_to_ban_preachers_of_terror/

*The Islamic State’s campaign of jihadist terror is “blessed”?  “Noble”? And Muslims here should decide how to react to our campaign to defeat the “most potent uprising in the Muslim world”?

So I understand Tony Abbott’s concern:

    TONY ABBOTT has pledged to “red-card” hate preachers from entering Australia, but has admitted his government can’t yet ban the radical group Hizb ut-Tahrir…

    “We’ve looked at banning them, but we were advised under exisiting law we can’t do it,” he told 2GB Radio.

    But Mr Abbott said a change to the law, that he hopes comes into force by the end of the year, will make it an offence to also promote terrorism, “not just to engage in terrorism”.

    “Then I suppose we have to have another look at Hizb ut-Tahrir to see whether they fall under the definition of promoting terrorism. *


----------



## Macquack (8 October 2014)

noco said:


> Hardly.....*how can you brand the current Israeli regime as terrorists*.... .you are just making things up and twisting things to suit your own argument.




Israel bombing UN run schools and hospitals in Gaza was a terrorist act. 



noco said:


> It is obvious you and Macquack are anti Jews and pro Muslim and you are *in favor of ISIS killing and beheading innocent people....Shame on you*




Want to take that one back, Noco?


----------



## noco (8 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> Israel bombing UN run schools and hospitals in Gaza was a terrorist act.
> 
> 
> 
> Want to take that one back, Noco?




Don't you read or listen to the news Macquack?

Only the naive would swallow the talk about Israel bombing UN run schools and hospitals.....Hamas were firing their rockets into Israel under the cover of UN schools and hospitals.....Israel gave the civilians plenty of warning to get away from those rocket launchers before bombing them....yes some civilians were in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

What was Israel supposed to do?...let Hamas continue unabated...

I am sure you know all about the Hamas terrorist modus operandi....if you don't, well you must be very naive or ignorant.

I never hear you talk about the thousands of Christians and infidels that have been murdered in northern Iraq and Syria by Isis.


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

DeepState said:


> Apparently not.
> 
> What does $300m *per month *translate to as a proportion of the defence budget? Here's a clue: quite a bit less than 1%.
> 
> ...






I also heard a while back that the US entire military budget is somewhere around $550 Billion. That works out to less than 4 or 5% of its GDP? Something the discussion panel all agreed was "not excessive", affordable. 

Affordable, probably... for how long, maybe forever if need be I suppose.

But I'm from the school of thought that says one would rather not spend money unnecessarily, even if it can be afforded. Kinda like saving for a rainy day, pay off debts, maybe help a few charities or a friend or two in need.

Financial scare-mongering... OK.

For Australia's contribution, our PM guess it'll be around $500 million a year?

Not sure how many GP visits the proposed $7-copayment could be waived for the poor and the seniors; How many university places or scholarships could that pay for? How many computer lab, libraries, football programmes... roads, infrastructures?

But then what good are these good things if we're conquered by pure evil cultists on pick up trucks crossing deserts and oceans right?


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

noco said:


> I'll bet he will be blocked by the Green/Labor coalition.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...bott_wants_powers_to_ban_preachers_of_terror/
> 
> ...




I think the delicate balance between freedom and security will definitely have to be shift.

Having said that, I heard some of the clips from ABC's 7.30 report by those Hizb ut-Tahrir... that kind of speech is unacceptable and they should be investigated. I mean, bombs goes off in Australia is because the Muslims are angry? You just don't do or say things like that, no matter how angry you are... what a moron.


----------



## DeepState (9 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> For Australia's contribution, our PM guess it'll be around $500 million a year?
> 
> Not sure how many GP visits the proposed $7-copayment could be waived for the poor and the seniors; How many university places or scholarships could that pay for? How many computer lab, libraries, football programmes... roads, infrastructures?
> 
> But then what good are these good things if we're conquered by pure evil cultists on pick up trucks crossing deserts and oceans right?




Yet another whinge.  Why don't you actually get the data before sprouting off some more of this stuff? You've got to think on a bigger scale than that and you know it.  When/if you make the attempt, why not try guiding it with concrete facts rather than emotive throwaways.


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

noco said:


> Don't you read or listen to the news Macquack?
> 
> Only the naive would swallow the talk about Israel bombing UN run schools and hospitals.....Hamas were firing their rockets into Israel under the cover of UN schools and hospitals.....Israel gave the civilians plenty of warning to get away from those rocket launchers before bombing them....yes some civilians were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
> 
> ...




Noco, you're really misinformed about Israel and Palestine/Hamas.

No one is saying Hamas never committed war crimes, or that it is nice and good... But man, if you put the crimes committed by Israel and Hamas on a scale, there's just no comparison... But take it that a crime's a crime, it's just really psychotic of Israel to do what it does, to the Palestinians as well as to its own people.


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

DeepState said:


> Yet another whinge.  Why don't you actually get the data before sprouting off some more of this stuff? You've got to think on a bigger scale than that and you know it.  When/if you make the attempt, why not try guiding it with concrete facts rather than emotive throwaways.




I'm thinking both big and small. It's always better that way.

Let's think big. 

$500 million estimated cost per year; promised to not raise tax for it... hmmm... print more money, reduce the value of the dollar, war is paid and export increased, budget balanced.

$680 million increased homeland intelligence/security measures against potential blowbacks... a few major contracts for a few Aussie oil companies; some discount on the F-35s; closer military ties and trade relations with US in case the 2 billion [?] people up north get some ideas.

Seriously though, what's the big picture with ISIS and the ME?

---

I read a bit of history and from what little I know, empires collapse because it over-extend itselves. 

WW1 wasn't enough for the French or the British empires, but after WW2 they both became the US's little brothers - the alternative would have been catastrophic, would have seen both ceased to exists.

Ming's Middle Kingdom collapsed because it wages one war too many against barbarians, can't collect its taxes, fight domestic rebellions and ended up with the little kingdom of Manchuria literally just walk in and establish its new dynasty... That last Dynasty got arrogant, corrupt and have its land divided among the Western Barbarians, its people sick and slaughtered and subjugated. 

There is no manifest destiny... The rich can become poor, the poor get dominated.

To wage war without serious debates; to cut spending at home but sending arms and troops afar fighting unknown enemies, with unclear strategies and false objectives... Truly, as Sun Tzu said, "only those acquainted with the evil of war can appreciate the most beneficial way of conducting it."


----------



## noco (9 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> Noco, you're really misinformed about Israel and Palestine/Hamas.
> 
> No one is saying Hamas never committed war crimes, or that it is nice and good... But man, if you put the crimes committed by Israel and Hamas on a scale, there's just no comparison... But take it that a crime's a crime, it's just really psychotic of Israel to do what it does, to the Palestinians as well as to its own people.




OFGS rap it up buddy......the Palestinians are good Christian people infiltrated by the Islamic group Hamas who are intent as with other Islamic countries are in destroying Israel..... Originally it was Arafat (PLO) who set out to convert the Palestinians  to Islam.

If someone came to you and punched your lights out because you would not do as they wanted you to do, would you just stand there and turn the other cheek or would fight back as in an eye for an eye.

The Arabs tried so hard to wipe the Israelis off the map in 1967 and and failed miserably and in 6 days the Arabs got all they had asked for and serves them right.

Hamas are the ones who always provoke Israel by firing rockets in the shadow of UN schools and hospitals.....they know damn well when Israel attempts to knock out those rocket launchers it will  cause some civilian casualties, they will get world wide attention....yes those bad Israelis are killing innocent women and children.


----------



## noco (9 October 2014)

I watched the interview between Emma Alberici and Wassim Doureihi......what a radical "RATBAG"....do we really have to tolerate this type of citizen in our country?

He was all over Abbott as the bad guy....no mention of Shorten.

If he does not like our government or our way of peaceful life, then to hell with him....go and live in what ever Islamic country of his choice....we do not need his brainwashing or indoctrination.

I don't care if he was born here or not, he is not worthy of being an Australian.

He would not answer the questions whether he was sympathetic to ISIL with their barbaric killings and beheadings of Christians and infidels...he would not condemn them so one has  only one alternative to believe he is one of them......He would also not condemn the recruiting of Islamic Australians who volunteer to fight for the ISIL.  



http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2014/s4103227.htm


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

noco said:


> OFGS rap it up buddy......the Palestinians are good Christian people infiltrated by the Islamic group Hamas who are intent as with other Islamic countries are in destroying Israel..... Originally it was Arafat (PLO) who set out to convert the Palestinians  to Islam.
> 
> If someone came to you and punched your lights out because you would not do as they wanted you to do, would you just stand there and turn the other cheek or would fight back as in an eye for an eye.
> 
> ...




You're wrong about the 1967 war. I've said it before, I've watch a couple lectures by Miko Peled, whose father was one of the commanding generals in that way. Peled said his father, based on the released war room discussions leading up to that war... his father advised attacking Egypt because Egypt is not ready, won't be ready for at least another year.

Anyway, like most people, I don't think you like to hear facts contrary to your belief system... so yea, OK... It's just obvious that the Arabs are all the one and the same, and they all love their Palestinian brothers... that Arabs, unlike us the good guys, does nothing all day but dream of Israel's destruction. And the Palestinians, being loathsome, lazy liars, don't tend to their farm or dream of higher education or a family... instead, they just go out and get a few stones and throw at a benevolent, God-fearing, democratic Jewish state with big guns and powerful friends... those Palestinians just want to pick fights all day.

OK then... let's bomb Iran.


----------



## Calliope (9 October 2014)

Probably the most exensive bombs we have ever delivered. What a fiasco...now that we are there, we can't find any targets. It won't be long now before Shorten sees political opportunity in withdrawing his support for this expensive side show, and poor old Tony will be left like a shag on a rock. Meanwhile back in Europe (and Australia) Islamisation is proceeding right on target.



> RAAF Super Hornet drops *two* bombs on Iraq terrorist target




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...terrorist-target/story-fnpdbcmu-1227084650071


----------



## DeepState (9 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> I'm thinking both big and small. It's always better that way.
> 
> Let's think big.




Sure thing, let's.




luutzu said:


> $500 million estimated cost per year; promised to not raise tax for it... hmmm... print more money, reduce the value of the dollar, war is paid and export increased, budget balanced.
> 
> $680 million increased homeland intelligence/security measures against potential blowbacks... a few major contracts for a few Aussie oil companies; some discount on the F-35s; closer military ties and trade relations with US in case the 2 billion [?] people up north get some ideas.
> 
> Seriously though, what's the big picture with ISIS and the ME?




Who's printing? Gov Stevens just spoke.  No mention of printing.  Do you know how they will finance this? Do you know what the impact on the dollar would actually be from the combination?  Get some data.  Once again, way off planatation.  Once again, more financial sacre-mongering in the absence of data.

Why an additional $680m?  How much of it was a catch-up?  In any case, wasn't it you that was spinning like a top about China getting some rumbles in their tummy with all that trade moving through the South China Sea and rising to exert power etc.?  Which side of the argument will you play tomorrow with that development?

What's the big picture?  You've been expressing strong and largely immovable opinion on this issue all over the place.  Surely you, of anyone, must know.  




luutzu said:


> I read a bit of history and from what little I know, empires collapse because it over-extend itselves.
> 
> WW1 wasn't enough for the French or the British empires, but after WW2 they both became the US's little brothers - the alternative would have been catastrophic, would have seen both ceased to exists.
> 
> ...




Can you provide a list of countries/peoples that were annihilated because they had no effective fighting force in the face of marauders please?  Just for balance, you know. 

On manifest destiny, I agree. Only change is constant.

Who exactly is over-extending here?  And before you round on financial scare-mongering about US deficits and printing money yet gain, try to think big picture.  It's not even close.

Further, your representation about little brothers is off kilter in the specifics as protrayed, but should inform some of the other points that actually are pertinent.

You actually get to vote.  If you feel more motivated about the issue, you can write op-eds to every non-Murdoch newspaper that just doesn't report facts so readers can do their own thinking, but also offers analysis too.  They can analyse your analysis.  You can buy advertising time.  You can write to your local member.  You can distribute leaflets.  You can door-knock and start a grass-roots movement.  You can set-up a YouTube channel. You can organize a rally.  Public debate is up to you - a member of the public.  You have never been more empowered to do so.

What is the objective? In which case, what is the false objective? Is war by the numbers the right way to establish clear strategy?  What if things change or you discover new things along the way?  What does strategy look like then? How does the evolution of strategy appear to an ASF participant then?  Unclear, perhaps? Would it be better if they laid out a Mission Statement, Vision Statement and a list of tasks and delegations using SMART and a SWOT analysis to the public? Is that what you actually expect?

In relation to your Sun Tzu quote, is the US unfamiliar with war in Iraq having spent over $106bn in one year alone (source: LZ)?  What about Australia sending in SAS yet again.  Not familiar enough for you?  I guess they'll get the chance to become even more familiar.


----------



## Tisme (9 October 2014)

This has caused some conversation on Facebook also. I'm not sure if it pro Muslim, anti Muslim or just for the sake of it:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/relax-this-isnt-a-real-daily-mail-front-page-and-muslim-spid#48386pu


----------



## SirRumpole (9 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> This has caused some conversation on Facebook also. I'm not sure if it pro Muslim, anti Muslim or just for the sake of it:
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/relax-this-isnt-a-real-daily-mail-front-page-and-muslim-spid#48386pu




I thought that sort of thing went out with "News of the World"

Someone must have watched the last episode of Dr Who.


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

DeepState said:


> Sure thing, let's.
> 
> Who's printing? Gov Stevens just spoke.  No mention of printing.  Do you know how they will finance this? Do you know what the impact on the dollar would actually be from the combination?  Get some data.  Once again, way off planatation.  Once again, more financial sacre-mongering in the absence of data.
> 
> ...




Not sure how those thinkers and strategists of old think or strategise without spreadsheets, databases and of course, data.

Call that $680 million what you like, a catch-up, a repayment, a loan, a grant, a modernisation initiative... whatever it is, it's an additional spending requirement we'll have to find ways to pay for.

It's insane that somehow, new spending our gov't is trying to figure out how to pay for is not new... it's a catch up. Does the "fact" that we (Labor, of course) have been slacking on national security mean the catch-ups is not new money? OK then.

I've been quite consistent with my arguments regarding serious threats to national security - China being one, other major, nuclear powered states like Russia, India... possibly the others.

You seriously think a bunch of idiots on pick up trucks, as our Captain call them, is a threat to our national survival, could threaten our national interests and influence?

They do pose an indirect threat.. that is IF we keep going to war against these invisible targets, cutting off their heads and watch more heads rises among them... spending our blood and treasure and lost focus, lost economic power to finance necessary wars (if and when it does arrive).

But as I have also said, in a nuclear powered world where we can probably borrow a couple, the chances of another state attacking us is almost zero. That does not mean it is zero... but say it is. 

So what's the danger?
First, a few hundred millions here, a few hundred catch-up millions there and, as some US Senator once said, adds up to real money.

Let's take a detailed look shall we... an average Australian earns what? $50, 000 p.a. before tax. At that rate, over their 45 years of labour they makes $2.25 million, say $2 million after tax.

Estimate cost to Australia is $500 million a year if we just bomb?
How many lifetime's of labour is that we've just wasted? 250?

I saw some news report that averages the US latest request for more missiles against ISIS... each works out to be about $1.6 million. Add to that the operating costs of the jets, the satellites, command/control.

And oh, collateral damages, people being blown up, cities and houses destroyed... but those costs are other people's problem right?


Let's get some data... I don't subcribe to databases so hope this free one will do:

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-airstrikes-syria-against-isis-may-cost-much-10-billion-1694475



> U.S. forces conducted on Wednesday a second day of bombing against ISIS targets in Syria, in an operation that President Barack Obama expects to last more than three years -- and which may cost as much as $10 billion a year, according to estimates compiled by Foreign Affairs magazine. While the U.S. has recruited allies in the operation, including Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates, which are hitting targets on the ground while other partners in the coalition offer support, it will still meet a substantial chunk of the cost.
> 
> If anything underlines how high that cost will be, it’s the combat debut of the F-22 Raptor, which costs $68,000 per hour to operate. That does not include the price of its vast array of weapons, such as Sidewinder missiles and small-diameter bombs, coming in at $600,000 and $250,000 each, respectively.


----------



## Tisme (9 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> Noco, the "jews" are not the "chosen people". They are just pedalers of propaganda.




And of course there are Jews and then there are Jews. The real Jews were rounded up by Nebuchadnezzar and resettled in Caucasus Mountains where they later dispersed into Europe to become part of or gave rise to the Anglo races whichever historian you want to believe. Then there are the convert Khazar Jews (13th tribe) who popped up around the same time as Muslims and they are the ones we see mainly in charge and in media and look mysteriously similar to Slavs and Arabs.

So the "real" Jews would probably object to being included in the propaganda. They would tell you their traits are blonde, red or light brown hair, blue green or blue eyes and fair skin. Sounds vaguely familiar.....


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

Before Think Big, grand strategy stuff...

at $500 million a year, at average wage of $50,000 a year... that's equivalent of 10,000 average jobs gone.

Are we safer? Will there be spoils of war? Will the cheap gas, the tax that might one day trickle down from the military and the police industrial complexes able to cover that?

Now that fighter jets, and who would have thought this, couldn't find easy targets... what are we to do? Give up? Kill innocent civilians? No! We must send in our heroes, our best and brightest, and fight house to house, block to block until we destroy and conquer... wait, that title is taken by some video game.. .until we degrade and ultimately destroy the little evil empire wannabe. 

Maybe save grand strategy for another day, til then... let have a listen to this 5-star general, Supreme Allied Commander-Europe, US president and probably a man familiar with war and history... let hear what he have to say, what emotional string he pulls to warn against the danger of this so call "unwanted" influence on our liberty, our civil society.


----------



## noco (9 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> You're wrong about the 1967 war. I've said it before, I've watch a couple lectures by Miko Peled, whose father was one of the commanding generals in that way. Peled said his father, based on the released war room discussions leading up to that war... his father advised attacking Egypt because Egypt is not ready, won't be ready for at least another year.
> 
> Anyway, like most people, I don't think you like to hear facts contrary to your belief system... so yea, OK... It's just obvious that the Arabs are all the one and the same, and they all love their Palestinian brothers... that Arabs, unlike us the good guys, does nothing all day but dream of Israel's destruction. And the Palestinians, being loathsome, lazy liars, don't tend to their farm or dream of higher education or a family... instead, they just go out and get a few stones and throw at a benevolent, God-fearing, democratic Jewish state with big guns and powerful friends... those Palestinians just want to pick fights all day.
> 
> OK then... let's bomb Iran.




Perhaps if you watch this video of the 1967 6 day war you may just perceive a different aspect of it all.

Egypt was ready to attack Israel in June 1967 with an almighty force aided by Syria and Jordan.

The Israelis were a jump ahead of the Egyptian plan and decided to kill or be killed......The Israelis wiped out the Egyptian air force in the first 3 hours.

Now listen intently to the rest...hope you go to the end of it irrespective of the fact that you  may not enjoy it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZYBUdzJuqI&feature=em-hot-vrecs


----------



## McLovin (9 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> This has caused some conversation on Facebook also. I'm not sure if it pro Muslim, anti Muslim or just for the sake of it:
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/relax-this-isnt-a-real-daily-mail-front-page-and-muslim-spid#48386pu




It's just a parody of the Daily Mail/Fail/Heil.

It's not like it's anything new for the DM.




I have to say I used to enjoy when I lived in the UK seeing just how ridiculous the headlines could be.

There's even a song...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI&app=desktop


----------



## DeepState (9 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> Not sure how those thinkers and strategists of old think or strategise without spreadsheets, databases and of course, data.




Sun Tzu said: "if you want to fight, proceed directly onto ground you have no familiarity with and engage an enemy whose capabilities you have no idea of."  Naturally this strategy led to him becoming widely quoted.




luutzu said:


> Call that $680 million what you like, a catch-up, a repayment, a loan, a grant, a modernisation initiative... whatever it is, it's an additional spending requirement we'll have to find ways to pay for.
> 
> It's insane that somehow, new spending our gov't is trying to figure out how to pay for is not new... it's a catch up. Does the "fact" that we (Labor, of course) have been slacking on national security mean the catch-ups is not new money? OK then.




Go find out how it is funded.  Alternatively, given you have so much faith in our security apparatus, please tell me why they don't deserve the funding to return to 'normal' levels.  Do you have more trust in them if they are underfunded?




luutzu said:


> I've been quite consistent with my arguments regarding serious threats to national security - China being one, other major, nuclear powered states like Russia, India... possibly the others.




....which is exactly why we need to increase our national security efforts.  




luutzu said:


> 1. You seriously think a bunch of idiots on pick up trucks, as our Captain call them, is a threat to our national survival, could threaten our national interests and influence?
> 
> 2. They do pose an indirect threat.. that is IF we keep going to war against these invisible targets, cutting off their heads and watch more heads rises among them... spending our blood and treasure and lost focus, lost economic power to finance necessary wars (if and when it does arrive).
> 
> ...




1. For all your big thinking, on pick-up trucks...sigh. 

2. Can't be sure. Did the guys in Bali who lit firecrackers that took a few lives have a Boeing 737, nuclear weapons, yada yada?  Let's spend some of the ASIO money and invite their leaders to an offsite and have a dialog about our differences. Maybe that will help?  

Question. Do we bow our heads at them as is the Japanese custom for greeting?

3. You need to look up how an asymmetric war is fought...yet again.  You seem to imagine that war is fought like a weird version of von Clausewitz. Or a copy of Bonnepart. That was 19th century.  That's crayon war. Grab an HDTV.  Actually watch it.




luutzu said:


> First, a few hundred millions here, a few hundred catch-up millions there and, as some US Senator once said, adds up to real money.




Ever consider the revenue side?  




luutzu said:


> Let's take a detailed look shall we... an average Australian earns what? $50, 000 p.a. before tax. At that rate, over their 45 years of labour they makes $2.25 million, say $2 million after tax.
> 
> Estimate cost to Australia is $500 million a year if we just bomb?
> How many lifetime's of labour is that we've just wasted? 250?




...Ever considered the revenue side (yet again)?  Or the even larger picture that is non-monetary?




luutzu said:


> Let's get some data... I don't subcribe to databases so hope this free one will do:





You get what you pay for I guess.  It's not even a database.  

Turns out I have a subscription.  Golly gosh.  Guess what, that's the alarmingly high figure....of the sort you repeatedly shake around when using budgets to justify anything in these contexts.  In any case, do the math or at least admit you don't when making strong statements. If you did, you would find nothing in here changes the thrust of the prior statements. Back in the can for that one.  Failing that, I'll just say that it is the case.  You know I use data and have it for this response.


----------



## DeepState (9 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> Before Think Big, grand strategy stuff...
> 
> at $500 million a year, at average wage of $50,000 a year... that's equivalent of 10,000 average jobs gone.
> 
> ...





So....are you saying the US Military Industrial Complex created IS as a black flag operation in order to create demand for all the special interest groups who supply inputs to the creation and deployment of arms?  They sure have incentive given the withdrawal of ground forces and on ongoing squeeze of sequestration.

Motive (tick)
Opportunity (tick)
Means (tick)

It must be.  Spooky, huh?


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

DeepState said:


> So....are you saying the US Military Industrial Complex created IS as a black flag operation in order to create demand for all the special interest groups who supply inputs to the creation and deployment of arms?  They sure have incentive given the withdrawal of ground forces and on ongoing squeeze of sequestration.
> 
> Motive (tick)
> Opportunity (tick)
> ...




I think it was the president of the United States, also the Supreme Commander fighting the greatest threat to Western (non-Germanic kind) powers in the last century... he was the guy with this crazy idea of the Military Industrial Complex and warn against its undue influence. I think in that same speech he also made the point of how many schools, hospitals, roads etc. etc. each jets, each aircraft carrier replaces... what a peacenik. Right?

You know what's scary?

That our news media, the so call fifth estate, fourth pillar of democracy... at least from what I saw of news in the US anyway... they drag out these former generals and military commanders, getting their expert advice on these threats and it's bomb bomb and war war war... I saw a piece of investigative journalism, on youtube, that some of these generals now works for defense contractors, directors and consultants to private military companies... I guess their expertise and views can never be bought right?


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

DeepState said:


> Sun Tzu said: "if you want to fight, proceed directly onto ground you have no familiarity with and engage an enemy whose capabilities you have no idea of."  Naturally this strategy led to him becoming widely quoted.




He's widely quoted because he's one of the few generals who actually understand the entire costs and benefits of war - not just strategies, tactics and war mongering.

He was referring to a strategy where the soldiers are forced to fight - to lead them into "death ground", deep into enemy territories so that they will unite as one, have no escape, and so when faced with death they will find life. And no, he's famous for saying that to guarantee victory, to win every battle, one must know oneself and know the enemy... to know the enemy but not oneself, to know one self but not know the enemy and victory is 50/50.

To go further, this implies that warfare, like any competition or relationship, involves two parties. Strategies and tactics must revolve and change according to circumstances and people... therefore, one cannot make calculations without first knowing one's own abilities, one cannot make plans without knowing the enemy and how they would react.

The death ground discussion follow his advice on the economics, the costs, of war - that price inflation will occur with war; that the army ought to live off the enemy, for every one picu of an enemy's grain equal 20 of our own - the costs of transportation etc.; that long campaigns will decrease the state's treasury, leading to higher taxation, higher taxation will stress the thousand families... hence, the objective of war is victory, not lengthy battle; hence, there has never been an example of a State having benefited from prolonged warfare.

What did our Defence Minister say a week ago? Don't know the cost, let's kinda wait and see how it goes...

Sun Tzu said, those who fight first then seek calculations are bloody idiots.

You and a few Master of War in Canberra got some extra reading to do.




DeepState said:


> Go find out how it is funded.  Alternatively, given you have so much faith in our security apparatus, please tell me why they don't deserve the funding to return to 'normal' levels.  Do you have more trust in them if they are underfunded?
> 
> ....which is exactly why we need to increase our national security efforts.




How much of the new fundings, wait... the old new funding, goes to recruiting new agents and how much goes to new data centres and NSA-type data retention and analytics?

Maybe the revenue side can come from starting a small unit within ASIO giving people URLs and their browsers bookmarks lost from upgrades.

I heard from Chomsky or Greenwald in one of their lectures that since the NSA metadata retention programme, the US only managed to capture 1, ONE, terrorists - a Somali in the US caught sending some $12,000 to a known terrorist in Somali through Western Union or something.

But that can't be right?






DeepState said:


> 1. For all your big thinking, on pick-up trucks...sigh.
> 
> 2. Can't be sure. Did the guys in Bali who lit firecrackers that took a few lives have a Boeing 737, nuclear weapons, yada yada?  Let's spend some of the ASIO money and invite their leaders to an offsite and have a dialog about our differences. Maybe that will help?
> 
> Question. Do we bow our heads at them as is the Japanese custom for greeting?




Yea, people who wage war against us are evil men, doing evil deeds... and our policies, which apparently began only in 2003 with the invasion of Iraq as our PM said in a speech to Parliament... we're all just loving freedom and bikini-clad babes and they just hate us and our way of life.

I thought you love 50 shades of Grey... haha







DeepState said:


> 3. You need to look up how an asymmetric war is fought...yet again.  You seem to imagine that war is fought like a weird version of von Clausewitz. Or a copy of Bonnepart. That was 19th century.  That's crayon war. Grab an HDTV.  Actually watch it.
> 
> Ever consider the revenue side?
> 
> ...




Ever thought it is us who's fighting the last war?
We're sending fighter jets and thought we're somehow going to win this thing. We barely got out of Iraq after some 10 years, some $2.5 Trillion real US dollars, some billions training and arming the Iraqis... didn't do us much good... but somehow, this time around, it's going to work with a few more bombs, a few more advisors and a couple more countries and rebel forces... voila. 

OK... costs not detailed enough or too high?
Why not give us your estimates? The last one you quote a while back was... $1.5 billion for the entire year?
That liberal paper I just googled put estimate at $10 billion a year, with Obama guessing it'll take 3 years... $30 billion, or 20 times higher than original estimate.

But of course strategies and estimates must revise and adapt to changing circumstances right? Art of War and what not.


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

noco said:


> Perhaps if you watch this video of the 1967 6 day war you may just perceive a different aspect of it all.
> 
> Egypt was ready to attack Israel in June 1967 with an almighty force aided by Syria and Jordan.
> 
> ...




The Miko Peled I spoke about.
There's his formal lectures but this video gets to the myth of the 1967 war.


----------



## Macquack (9 October 2014)

noco said:


> *Only the naive would swallow the talk about Israel bombing UN run schools and hospitals*.....Hamas were firing their rockets into Israel under the cover of UN schools and hospitals.....Israel gave the civilians plenty of warning to get away from those rocket launchers before bombing them....yes some civilians were in the wrong place at the wrong time.




You must be ****ing joking, right?

Lets just move that hospital full of patients and doctors and nurses into a safe place, like a school. 

If you were in that hospital you would not be so complementary of the Israeli "Defence" Forces.

Terrorist act, no ****ing excuses.


----------



## noco (9 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> You must be ****ing joking, right?
> 
> Lets just move that hospital full of patients and doctors and nurses into a safe place, like a school.
> 
> ...




I am not joking...it was reported many times in the media and TV.

You obviously don't read newspapers or watch TV.

I think have buried you head in the sand for too long.


----------



## noco (9 October 2014)

This is a  U-Tube the Palestinians want removed and no wonder why.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU9CauJP4Pg


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

noco said:


> This is a  U-Tube the Palestinians want removed and no wonder why.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU9CauJP4Pg




No wonder they want it removed. The video pretty much say the Palestinians does not exists - no mention of "Palestine" in the Koran. I think they were called "Philistine" back then. Anyway, I'd be pretty upset if some idiots tries to wash me and my people off of history, off of the land of my ancestors.


what else... Jerusalem is not their Holy site because they turn their head to Mecca and hence their butt to the Mount on the Rock as they pray, they picnic and play soccer outside on its courtyard - so no Holy site!
I think Israel's Shin Bet and all Muslims around the world beg to differ. But what do they know about what's Holy to their faith.

Yea man, could I use that same reasoning and take my neighbour's car? I mean, the dude wash it with green shampoo and dry it with cheap chamois when we all know blue shampoo works best and you have to air dry it with your breath. That's what I would do with his car, he didn't do it, so it obviously is not his car.

What else... King David. I heard from Miko Peled too that historians have found no evidence of King David ever existed.

Seriously, aren't you all from the same God, the same father - Adam and his rib? Aren't you all directly from Sem, the son of Noah after the flood?

If we're serious about using the Bible as a source of truth and history, shouldn't we at least not be selective and pick the parts that serve our purpose? Asking for too much?


----------



## luutzu (9 October 2014)

noco said:


> I am not joking...it was reported many times in the media and TV.
> 
> You obviously don't read newspapers or watch TV.
> 
> I think have buried you head in the sand for too long.




There's your problem right there noco - getting info from the newspapers and TV.


----------



## noco (10 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> There's your problem right there noco - getting info from the newspapers and TV.





I don't think Miko Peled is all that he is cracked up to be according to the link below.

Miko Peled is a Green lefty, a peace activist, a human rights preacher, a pro Islamic and stretches the truth when ever he can.  

He bashes Israel when ever he can and not once does he condemn the Muslim radical Hamas group for the problems that exist in Palestine.

If he is as good as he makes out to be why doesn't he talk to ISIS and be the peace maker in Iraq and Syria?



http://findalismonkeyinthemiddle.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/miko-peled-at-uc-irvine.html


----------



## chiff (10 October 2014)

Heard on the BBC the other night that unemployed young men from Kosovo and Albania are being lured to join IS with a daily payment of 60 Euros.From countries with unemployment rates of around fifty percent for young men.


----------



## chiff (10 October 2014)

I see that you often quote the Australian newspaper Noco.What do you think of the writings of Greg Sheridan regarding Israel and the Middle East?


----------



## Value Collector (10 October 2014)

On the topic of jihad and religious conflict, one of the scariest things is that the religious among us long for the end of the world, ISIS and the like have long said "We love death more than you love life"

It's quite sickening really.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 October 2014)

Value Collector said:


> On the topic of jihad and religious conflict, one of the scariest things is that the religious among us long for the end of the world, ISIS and the like have long said "We love death more than you love life"
> 
> It's quite sickening really.





i had some Jehova's witnesses call on me the other day. They are fairly nice people and I usually have a chat to see where they are coming from . This time it was about a "world government", led of course by "their" God. I asked if all the Muslims would convert and their answer was that God would smite them down if they didn't. Not much difference to the Muslims, only the Muslims have to do God's dirty work for them as their God doesn't appear capable of doing it himself.

Funny how "religions of peace" always seem obsessed with acts of violence.


----------



## luutzu (10 October 2014)

noco said:


> I don't think Miko Peled is all that he is cracked up to be according to the link below.
> 
> Miko Peled is a Green lefty, a peace activist, a human rights preacher, a pro Islamic and stretches the truth when ever he can.
> 
> ...




Miko Peled probably have more love for Israel in one of his finger nails than you or I thought about it in our entire lifetime.

His father was literally one of the founders of Israel man. The father join the IDF when there weren't even a thing call the IDF, he rises up the ranks and lead its soldiers to wars. Miko himself joined the IDF, rose to the rank of Colonel I think... he said he never question or think much about Israel's policies until his niece was killed in one of the terrorist attacks, in a cafe/restaurant in Tel Aviv.

That he only slowly look into this because his sister, the mother of that niece, when asked by the Israeli press who she blames and how Israel can revenge the death... the mother, who went to school with Bibi the Great, his childhood friend... she said she blame Israel for its policies, for being so brutal and cruel towards the Palestinians that it drove one of them to strap explosives to themselves.

You don't have to agree with her conclusions, but that's what she believe. And this led Peled to research and rethink. He said it took him two years to come around to the facts, that he couldn't believe the things he heard or read, the stuff Palestinians living in the US tells him.

Anyway, what he said I've also heard from other sources... Strange how just about all the sources I've listened to, both pro and critical of Israel, most are Jewish themselves. But then there's a lot of self-hating Jews and anti-Semite out there, right?

ISIS does not equal Hamas or Palestine. Iran doesn't equal Hamas or ISIS either.

Israel is going to bomb Iran one day, you watch. That drum of war has been sounded since at least 2012, repeated again a few weeks ago by Bibi at the UN, at the White House, at his US media circus. All it need is an acceptable pretext and a friendlier US president.


----------



## luutzu (10 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> i had some Jehova's witnesses call on me the other day. They are fairly nice people and I usually have a chat to see where they are coming from . This time it was about a "world government", led of course by "their" God. I asked if all the Muslims would convert and their answer was that God would smite them down if they didn't. Not much difference to the Muslims, only the Muslims have to do God's dirty work for them as their God doesn't appear capable of doing it himself.
> 
> Funny how "religions of peace" always seem obsessed with acts of violence.




These religious nuts are insane, all of them.

One of the largest supporters of Israel are the Evangelicals Christians from the US/Canada. They support and donate to Israel because it is only when the Jews control all of Palestine that Christ will return. Upon his second coming, all will die, Armageddon and all that... 

So they support Israel so that the world will end and along with it all the Jews, except for a few who turn to Christ in time. The Jews doesn't believe that nonsense in the New Testament so say thanks and took the money anyway.


----------



## noco (10 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> These religious nuts are insane, all of them.
> 
> One of the largest supporters of Israel are the Evangelicals Christians from the US/Canada. They support and donate to Israel because it is only when the Jews control all of Palestine that Christ will return. Upon his second coming, all will die, Armageddon and all that...
> 
> So they support Israel so that the world will end and along with it all the Jews, except for a few who turn to Christ in time. The Jews doesn't believe that nonsense in the New Testament so say thanks and took the money anyway.





Dream on my friend....it ain't gonna happen.


----------



## noco (10 October 2014)

As was predicted some years ago, the infiltration of the Western World by Muslims is gaining momentum and the UK and Europe are regretting they allowed it to happen.

The Green/Labor left wing socialist allowed 50,000 to flood into Australia between 2008 and 2013 and they are starting to show their muscle here also.

We must be thankful we now have an adult government who has stopped the flow.

Australia could still become another UK and Europe if steps are not taken to control the radicals who are already in Australia whether they were born here or not.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...middle_easts_wars_into_the_streets_of_europe/


----------



## Macquack (10 October 2014)

noco said:


> I am not joking...it was reported many times in the media and TV.
> 
> You obviously don't read newspapers or watch TV.
> 
> I think have buried you head in the sand for too long.




The Palestinians are just the Israeli’s “*punching bag*”.

Every now and then for a little bit of “*military war games*” practice and a big bit of *"ego"* exercise, the Israeli Defence Forces lead by that scumbag Netanyahu, let the Palestinians "HAVE IT BIG TIME" (in a Israeli-occupied territory for Christ sake!)

So “bloody” predictable.

The Israelis are not as clever as you think Noco.


----------



## DB008 (10 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> These religious nuts are insane, all of them.
> 
> One of the largest supporters of Israel are the Evangelicals Christians from the US/Canada. They support and donate to Israel because it is only when the Jews control all of Palestine that Christ will return. Upon his second coming, all will die, Armageddon and all that...
> 
> So they support Israel so that the world will end and along with it all the Jews, except for a few who turn to Christ in time. The Jews doesn't believe that nonsense in the New Testament so say thanks and took the money anyway.













> According to Pew Research, Evangelical support for Jews is very high. However the feeling is not mutual. While 69% of white evangelicals say they have a favorable view of Jews, only 34% of Jews say they have a favorable view of Evangelicals.


----------



## noco (10 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> The Palestinians are just the Israeli’s “*punching bag*”.
> 
> Every now and then for a little bit of “*military war games*” practice and a big bit of *"ego"* exercise, the Israeli Defence Forces lead by that scumbag Netanyahu, let the Palestinians "HAVE IT BIG TIME" (in a Israeli-occupied territory for Christ sake!)
> 
> ...




Well, I"ll be blowed......you could have fooled me.


----------



## Macquack (10 October 2014)

noco said:


> *Dream on my friend*....it ain't gonna happen.




What luutzu said, is actually happening.

So what is your actual position on religion, Noco,  for clarity?


----------



## DB008 (10 October 2014)

noco said:


> As was predicted some years ago, the infiltration of the Western World by Muslims is gaining momentum and the UK and Europe are regretting they allowed it to happen.
> 
> The Green/Labor left wing socialist allowed 50,000 to flood into Australia between 2008 and 2013 and they are starting to show their muscle here also.
> 
> ...





Hamburg this week

*Pro-ISIS radicals with machetes, knives attack Kurds in Hamburg, Germany*


----------



## noco (10 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> What luutzu said, is actually happening.
> 
> So what is your actual position on religion, Noco,  for clarity?




That is for me to know and for you to find out......I am certainly not one of you old boy.


----------



## Value Collector (11 October 2014)

DB008 said:


> View attachment 59783




Why are there two separate categories for atheist and agnostic? 

Makes me think the people who put it together didn't know the meaning of those words.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Why are there two separate categories for atheist and agnostic?
> 
> Makes me think the people who put it together didn't know the meaning of those words.




There is a difference between atheists and agnostics. Atheists don't believe there is a God, ie they have made up their mind. Agnostics believe there MAY be a God but the evidence hasn't been found. You can't lump the two together. One has a closed mind, the other has an open mind.


----------



## Tink (11 October 2014)

Agree, Rumpole, that is how I see it also. 

We have had this conversation in here before, but yet, they keep moving the posts.

You either believe, you don't believe, or you are not sure.


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

And so endeth the first lesson.......the second lesson will be after one of these idiots beheads one of our innocent Australians or blows up a rail station or a sports center.......they are starting to show their muscle now as their numbers are increasing.......they will soon give us two choices.......either become a Muslim or be eliminated.

This Galah and his 50 disciples should either be deported or if they were born here they should be locked up.

Please Tony Abbott, don't wait for some disaster to happen.....please don't wait for them to disrupt our way of life.....intervene now before it is too late.....  



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-order-is-coming/story-fnii5s41-1227086878686


----------



## Macquack (11 October 2014)

noco said:


> That is for me to know and for you to find out......I am certainly not one of you old boy.




I will look up what religion *Andrew Bolt *is and that will give me the answer.


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> I will look up what religion *Andrew Bolt *is and that will give me the answer.




Don't waste your time Macquack.....you are using the wrong bait.


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

How cold blooded those barbaric radical Muslims are.......to shoot a young girl in the head for standing up to her rites for an education.

They are so sick in the head....and to think we have many here in Australia who would not  hesitate to do the same thing.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ailash-satyarthi/story-fnihsmjt-1227086892533


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

I believe freedom of speech should be tolerated to a point and at that point we should not allow speech full of threats, intimidation, fear and hate to our citizens and our way of life.

Our generous freedom of speech is being exploited by Muslim radicals who insight war on our home turf if they do not get their own way and this is where the line should be drawn.  


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1412995072985


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2014)

noco said:


> I believe freedom of speech should be tolerated to a point and at that point we should not allow speech full of threats, intimidation, fear and hate to our citizens and our way of life.
> 
> Our generous freedom of speech is being exploited by Muslim radicals who insight war on our home turf if they do not get their own way and this is where the line should be drawn.
> 
> ...




The correct word is* incite*

*Insight* is wisdom, knowledge of a deeper meaning


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The correct word is* incite*
> 
> *Insight* is wisdom, knowledge of a deeper meaning




Thanks for that correction Rumpy.

When I was a boy I always had trouble with my alphabet.......I would say L M N O P Q S T....I was always slipping on my r'se.


----------



## luutzu (11 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a difference between atheists and agnostics. Atheists don't believe there is a God, ie they have made up their mind. Agnostics believe there MAY be a God but the evidence hasn't been found. You can't lump the two together. One has a closed mind, the other has an open mind.




Agnostics don't believe in God, they're just being polite about it.

Like having a friend who have statues of his god/s everywhere... it's rude to say you don't believe these things... more polite to say you haven't yet been fortunate enough to see the light.


----------



## luutzu (11 October 2014)

noco said:


> And so endeth the first lesson.......the second lesson will be after one of these idiots beheads one of our innocent Australians or blows up a rail station or a sports center.......they are starting to show their muscle now as their numbers are increasing.......they will soon give us two choices.......either become a Muslim or be eliminated.
> 
> This Galah and his 50 disciples should either be deported or if they were born here they should be locked up.
> 
> ...




noco... they will not do that. They will soon, if not already, run for public office. And those Muslims whose parents or grandparents were born here, they might even start to join ASIO or ASIS... or god forbid, run one of those agencies... then we're all screwed.

Should go and watch "the Americans" TV series and see how the red commies did it; or the Manchurian Candidate.


----------



## Julia (11 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> Agnostics don't believe in God, they're just being polite about it.



No.   I'm agnostic.  I'm not an atheist.  I simply do not know whether any sort of god exists, don't really care either way, but have no basis for declaring that there is no god.

Agnosticism seems the only stance that makes any sense to me, given that no proof exists for either absolute belief or non-belief of any god.

So perhaps don't make declarations on behalf of other people, luutzu.


----------



## luutzu (11 October 2014)

noco said:


> I believe freedom of speech should be tolerated to a point and at that point we should not allow speech full of threats, intimidation, fear and hate to our citizens and our way of life.
> 
> Our generous freedom of speech is being exploited by Muslim radicals who insight war on our home turf if they do not get their own way and this is where the line should be drawn.
> 
> ...




I don't know... freedom of speech is pretty important in a democracy. I'm pretty sure there has always been laws against telling someone to go and commit crimes or terrorist act - classified as an 'accomplice' [?].

I heard our Foreign Minister saying she want more power to be able to suspend passports of suspects where intelligence assessment hasn't yet reach that "threshold"... so while "evidence" is being gathered to prove the obvious crime or intent to commit the crime that would enable her to suspend people's freedom to travel, she should be able to suspend it anyway until the evidence is gathered to then prove it need suspending... haha

I thought politicians know the law and the Constitution... or at least know the foundation of our democracy.


----------



## luutzu (11 October 2014)

Julia said:


> No.   I'm agnostic.  I'm not an atheist.  I simply do not know whether any sort of god exists, don't really care either way, but have no basis for declaring that there is no god.
> 
> Agnosticism seems the only stance that makes any sense to me, given that no proof exists for either absolute belief or non-belief of any god.
> 
> So perhaps don't make declarations on behalf of other people, luutzu.




Yea I know, was trying to be funny.


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> noco... they will not do that. They will soon, if not already, run for public office. And those Muslims whose parents or grandparents were born here, they might even start to join ASIO or ASIS... or god forbid, run one of those agencies... then we're all screwed.
> 
> Should go and watch "the Americans" TV series and see how the red commies did it; or the Manchurian Candidate.




We already have a Muslim MP in the federal Labor Party.......When he was sworn in by the Governor General he took the oath with one hand on the Koran....We certainly do not need anymore thank you.

His name is Ed Kusek and his silence on these latest Islamic demonstrations is deafening......Not one word from him.


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> I don't know... freedom of speech is pretty important in a democracy. I'm pretty sure there has always been laws against telling someone to go and commit crimes or terrorist act - classified as an 'accomplice' [?].
> 
> I heard our Foreign Minister saying she want more power to be able to suspend passports of suspects where intelligence assessment hasn't yet reach that "threshold"... so while "evidence" is being gathered to prove the obvious crime or intent to commit the crime that would enable her to suspend people's freedom to travel, she should be able to suspend it anyway until the evidence is gathered to then prove it need suspending... haha
> 
> I thought politicians know the law and the Constitution... or at least know the foundation of our democracy.




Yes they know the law and the constitution, but the current law does not allow them to ban this particularly Islamic organization and that is why there is legislation before parliament now.

They have been banned in some countries including Canada to the best of my knowledge.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2014)

noco said:


> We already have a Muslim MP in the federal Labor Party.......When he was sworn in by the Governor General he took the oath with one hand on the Koran....We certainly do not need anymore thank you.
> 
> His name is Ed Kusek and his silence on these latest Islamic demonstrations is deafening......Not one word from him.




Are you accusing Ed Kusic of supporting terrorism ? Why does he personally have to denounce the actions of ISIS ? His party leader has already done that.

While you are at it, lets get rid of this lot as well, they'll have us declaring war on Palestine.



> Jews sworn into Australian parliament
> 
> 
> Two Jewish lawmakers were sworn into Australia’s new parliament wearing kippahs and taking their oath on the Hebrew Bible.
> ...


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Are you accusing Ed Kusic of supporting terrorism ? Why does he personally have to denounce the actions of ISIS ? His party leader has already done that.
> 
> While you are at it, lets get rid of this lot as well, they'll have us declaring war on Palestine.




Ed Kusic certainly did not condemn them, so there for, for all we know he may condone......it would be nice of him to clarify his position...he is either for them or against their radicalization.

His party leader is not a Muslim while he is......His party leader is a Fabian.

How can you compare the Jewish bible to the Koran?......they are light years apart........do you hear the Jews running around the Globe shouting " become a Jew or will eliminate you".....do the Jews stone their women to death or behead anyone who disagrees with them?...of course they don't.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2014)

noco said:


> Ed Kusic certainly did not condemn them, so there for, for all we know he may condone......it would be nice of him to clarify his position...he is either for them or against their radicalization.
> 
> His party leader is not a Muslim while he is......His party leader is a Fabian.
> 
> How can you compare the Jewish bible to the Koran?......they are light years apart........do you hear the Jews running around the Globe shouting " become a Jew or will eliminate you".....do the Jews stone their women to death or behead anyone who disagrees with them?...of course they don't.




Have you actually heard Ed Kusic advocating terrorism ? Every Muslim does not have to denounce every act of terror. I think you would have done well in the McCarthy days in the US.

Has Frydenburg denounced the killing of Palestinians by Israel lately ? No ? Obviously he must support them in that case.


----------



## Macquack (11 October 2014)

What is your solution to this perceived threat to you, Noco?

I think I know the answer. It is the same plan as implemented by Hitler, except you would be rounding up all the muslims instead of the jews for collective punishment.

You are allowed your opinion.


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> What is your solution to this perceived threat to you, Noco?
> 
> I think I know the answer. It is the same plan as implemented by Hitler, except you would be rounding up all the muslims instead of the jews for collective punishment.
> 
> You are allowed your opinion.




 MY OH MY Macquack you are getting desperate aren't you?

If you know the answer, why are you asking me?


----------



## orr (11 October 2014)

From John Birmingham in Fairfax Today

       "I guess it's a lucky thing the raids only turned up a plastic sword then. What if those 800 cops had found a toy light sabre? The headlines would have screamed "ISIS develops terrifying Stars Wars capability". The SAS might have been despatched to Tatooine."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/call-that-a-sword-this-is-a-joke-20141009-113kgy.html#ixzz3FpDMz3Lr

And the stench of the budget still lingers, more fierce and flavoursome than Arthur Sinodinous's undies at an ICAC inquiry. Where to now for Credlin? ............ I'm off to get a copy of George du Maurier's 'Trilby' to find out.....


----------



## Macquack (11 October 2014)

noco said:


> MY OH MY Macquack you are getting desperate aren't you?
> 
> If you know the answer, why are you asking me?




Because you won't come out and spit it right out.

You bang on and on about evil muslims, and you probably have never met one in the flesh in your entire life, living in Townsville?

My take is this is just another beat up. 

Let sleeping dogs lie and only punish people for committing crimes in your own country.

Vietnam was a **** up, Iraq was a **** up and now this.

And I forgot about Afghanistan.


----------



## Joe Blow (11 October 2014)

This thread is about jihad and the issues surrounding it, not about those participating in the discussion.

Discuss the topic please, not each other.


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

Joe Blow said:


> This thread is about jihad and the issues surrounding it, not about those participating in the discussion.
> 
> Discuss the topic please, not each other.




Yes Joe, I agree......I think it would be wise for some of us to ignore the megalomania that takes place on the ASF.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2014)

noco said:


> Yes Joe, I agree......I think it would be wise for some of us to ignore the megalomania that takes place on the ASF.




As well as the making of unsubstantiated allegations and innuendo against certain members of minority groups.


----------



## noco (11 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> As well as the making of unsubstantiated allegations and innuendo against certain members of minority groups.




Joe has just addressed this but you appear to be ignoring his advice.


----------



## orr (13 October 2014)

The unresolved ghost of the Hilton Bombing still hanging............ And the zealots within ASIO appear to be of considerably more concern to our National  fabric than they ort to be

http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/10/09/plastic-sword-the-least-of-asios-bungles-in-terror-raid/

They can be relied upon to look in the wrong place for the wrong things... You'll remember this one Noco... Whilst busy in the 70's looking for the 'Pinko Menace' , The uba fascist Croat's were busy plotting to blow up Sydney's Water Supply completely un surveilled...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Croatian_Six


Keep an ear out for those bumps in the night children..............


----------



## DB008 (13 October 2014)

*ISIS magazine Dabiq calls for ‘lone wolf’ attacks on Australians as Kobane battle continues*



> THE Islamic State jihadist group is again urging its followers to carry out “lone wolf” attacks against Australians and citizens of other “crusader nations” that are supporting the military mission in Iraq.
> 
> In the latest edition of its English-language magazine, Dabiq, a statement from the IS calls on supporters to attack “infidels”, according to Australian media reports.






> “At this point of the crusade against the Islamic State, it is very important that attacks take place in every country that has entered into the alliance against the Islamic State, especially the US, UK, France, Australia and Germany,” it states.




http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/isis-magazine-dabiq-calls-for-lone-wolf-attacks-on-australians-as-kobane-battle-continues/story-fnh81ifq-1227088588629


----------



## tech/a (13 October 2014)

Question

USA / UK / AUS 
have spent billions training Iraqi military
Supplying them weapons.

How is it that a militant group can just walk all over it?


----------



## IFocus (13 October 2014)

tech/a said:


> Question
> 
> USA / UK / AUS
> have spent billions training Iraqi military
> ...





Answer Suni vers Shia


----------



## luutzu (13 October 2014)

tech/a said:


> Question
> 
> USA / UK / AUS
> have spent billions training Iraqi military
> ...




Good question.

From one of Chomsky's off-handed remarks, he said what we've done in Iraq 2 has not been nation-building as claimed. That the US and its allies simply set up a Green Zone around certain sections of Baghdad, fence that up, protect those perimeters... that and protect the oil pipelines and other important assets. The rest of the country or the city itself can pretty much go to hell - well, goes to the Iraqi gov't, a Shiite gov't not friendly and inclusive of the Sunni population.

I don't know how true that is, but doesn't sound far-fetch to me. 

With the Iraqi army... read somewhere that the numbers are inflated by senior officers so they can collect extra pay. Don't know what the real number of soldiers are.


----------



## Tisme (14 October 2014)

There was an excellent piece by Des Houghton in the paper the other day. If you can find it online, the article began with:

_THERE is an extraordinary petition circulating in England calling on Downing Street to ban the burqa. I say extraordinary because it was drawn up and circulated by Muslims who believe the Islamic veil is a symbol of female oppression. _


----------



## noco (15 October 2014)

Those Australian radicals who promote violence in our community should leave the country now.......we don't like you or need you in Australia..

So bugger off!!!!!!!


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|section|homepage|homepage&itmt=1413325152855


----------



## Tisme (15 October 2014)

noco said:


> Those Australian radicals who promote violence in our community should leave the country now.......we don't like you or need you in Australia..
> 
> So bugger off!!!!!!!




I'm wondering what the litmus test would be to promotion of violence. Some would argue that the feeling of exclusion and isolation can be enough to engender violence in ethnic minorities, thus the self appointed oracles like Bolt are inflaming tensions. It could be argued we are becoming too soft and not able to negotiate around hate preachers who have the ear of media barons.

How do we measure treachery/treason/sedition/traitors to the national interest these days? Do journalists have more scope than they did in the red menace 1950's or less? Are journalists more interested in whipping up division via sensationalism and fear, than caring about the national cohesion; do they really care; afterall, singularly, they are merely one out of 22 million people with an opinion that often doesn't fit the facts.

Obviously the LNP doesn't trust the journalist fraternity to act in the national interest, thus the new legislation.

Cronulla was a picnic compared to what Muslims are doing to Muslims in their spiritual homelands. It frightening to think how brutal they can be encouraged to be and what the rest of us may have to contend with, especially since we have been socially engineered to be passives since Vietnam.


----------



## Tisme (15 October 2014)

Seditious Intention[edit]

Section 24 defined a seditious intention as [a]n intention to effect any of the following purposes:
(a) to bring the Sovereign into hatred or contempt;(d) to excite disaffection against the Government or Constitution of the Commonwealth or against either House of the Parliament of the Commonwealth;(f) to excite Her Majesty's subjects to attempt to procure the alteration, otherwise than by lawful means, of any matter in the Commonwealth established by law of the Commonwealth; or(g) *to promote feelings of ill-will and hostility between different classes of Her Majesty's subjects so as to endanger the peace, order or good government of the Commonwealth;*

Apparently we are a class society.


----------



## Calliope (15 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> Are journalists more interested in whipping up division via sensationalism and fear, than caring about the national cohesion; do they really care; afterall, singularly, they are *merely one out of 22 million people with an opinion that often doesn't fit the facts*.






> opinion
> [uh-pin-yuh n]
> noun
> 1.a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
> ...




Ah...the irony. You, of all people, should know that opinions and facts are entirely different things.


----------



## Tisme (15 October 2014)

Calliope said:


> Ah...the irony. You, of all people, should know that opinions and facts are entirely different things.





  Didn't we have that argument on another forum?


----------



## Calliope (15 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> Didn't we have that argument on another forum?




No. I am not a contributor to any other forum.


----------



## Craton (15 October 2014)

orr said:


> The unresolved ghost of the Hilton Bombing still hanging............ And the zealots within ASIO appear to be of considerably more concern to our National  fabric than they ort to be
> 
> http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/10/09/plastic-sword-the-least-of-asios-bungles-in-terror-raid/
> 
> ...




Reminds of the ubiquitous graffiti scrawled all over Sydney around that time period..."Police verbals equals lies"

Nothing like a good scrape goat to appease eh!


----------



## noco (15 October 2014)

Oh dear, with great respect for Tony Abbott, why can't we have an Australian Prime Minister like Monsieur Fillon?

Maybe Abbott is hamstrung by our stupid laws.


This is well said!  At last a Prime Minister with guts.

The rest of the world could take a lesson from him.

Hats off to Monsieur Fillon!!!


*Prime Minister of France


For once, a French politician has the courage to say out loud
what the French think and sometimes cry out about.

Interesting approach?
Learning to live in peace and harmony ?

Muslims who want to live under the law of the 'Islamic Sharia'
have recently been told to leave France in order to guard against
possible terrorist attacks, the government has targeted radicals.

Apparently, the Prime Minister, Francois Fillon has angered
some French Muslims in stating:

THOSE IMMIGRANTS, WHO ARE NOT FRENCH MUST ADAPT.

Take it or leave it, I am tired of this nation worrying about
whether we are offending some individual or their culture.
Our culture has developed with struggles and victories by millions
of men and women who have sought freedom. 

Our official language is French, not Spanish, or Lebanese, or Arabic, 
or Chinese, or Japanese, or any other language. 
Therefore, if you want to be part of our society, learn the language! 
Most French people believe in God. This is not some Christian obligation, 
influence by the rightists or political pressure, but it is a fact, because men
and women founded this nation on Christian principles, and this is clearly documented.

It is then appropriate to display this on the walls of our schools? ? 
if God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world 
as your home, because God is part of our culture. 

We will accept your beliefs without question. 
All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in peaceful harmony with us. 
This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, AND OUR LIFESTYLE. 

And we offer you the opportunity to enjoy all this. 
But if you're tired of our flag, our commitment, our Christian beliefs, or our lifestyle, 
I strongly encourage you to take advantage of another great French freedom,
THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
If you are not happy here then LEAVE. 
We did not force you to come here. 
You asked to be here. 
So accept the country YOU chose. 

(Perhaps if we circulate this email to the world's citizens 
we may find a way to stand up and spread the same truths) 

...Well said Mr. Fillon!!!!!

*


----------



## Macquack (15 October 2014)

Calliope said:


> No. I am not a contributor to any other forum.




It is a wonder, with all that free time you had in the "sin bin".

Joe should give you a ASF Loyalty Card.


----------



## bellenuit (15 October 2014)

noco said:


> Oh dear, with great respect for Tony Abbott, why can't we have an Australian Prime Minister like Monsieur Fillon?
> 
> Maybe Abbott is hamstrung by our stupid laws.
> 
> ...




Noco, do you ever check anything?

That has been going the rounds for some time and has even been attributed to Julia Gillard

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/likeitorleaveit.asp

When you get this sort of stuff, simply copy a complete sentence from it and paste it into Google. You will quickly find if it is genuine or one of the myriad of hoaxes circulating the web


----------



## pixel (15 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> It is a wonder, with all that free time you had in the "sin bin".
> 
> Joe should give you a ASF Loyalty Card.




Macquack,
can you please refrain from personal comments like that. As Joe put it some time ago:


> This thread is about jihad and the issues surrounding it, not about those participating in the discussion.
> Discuss the topic please, not each other.


----------



## noco (15 October 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Noco, do you ever check anything?
> 
> That has been going the rounds for some time and has even been attributed to Julia Gillard
> 
> ...




Perhaps you should do some checking yourself on "SNOPES"........They have been exposed for not telling the truths.


http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/internet/a/snopes_exposed.htm

Rumor example:
Email text contributed by Elliott F., Oct. 20, 2008:

    Subject: Snopes under fire

    PLEASE READ!!!!!!! VERY IMPORTANT----- SNOPES EXPOSED:

    Snopes under fire

    I have suspected some problems with Snopes for some time now, but I have only caught them in half-truths. If there is any subjectivity they do an immediate full left rudder.

    Truth or fiction.com <http://truthorfiction.com/> is the better source for verification, in my opinion.

*I have recently discovered that Snopes.com is owned by a flaming liberal and this man is in the tank for Obama. There are many things they have listed on their site as a hoax and yet you can go to Youtube yourself and find the video of Obama actually saying these things. So you see, you cannot and should not trust Snopes.com.... ever for anything that remotely resembles truth! I don't even trust them to tell me if email chains are hoaxes anymore.*

*Because snopes.com is all about rumors, it was only a matter of time before rumors began to circulate about it and its operators, such as the following:
Snopes receives funding from an undisclosed source. The source is undisclosed because Snopes refuses to disclose that source. The Democratic Alliance, a funding channel for uber-Leftist (Marxist) Billionaires (George Soros etc.), direct funds to an "Internet Propaganda Arm" pushing these views. The Democratic Alliance has been reported to instruct Fundees to not disclose their funding source.*

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/info/aboutus.asp#L5cgZVLCZzzYtZKP.99

I also did like you said and this what came up.......maybe you will now believe it.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1362369180


----------



## bellenuit (15 October 2014)

noco said:


> Perhaps you should do some checking yourself on "SNOPES"........They have been exposed for not telling the truths.




Actually, the Urban Legends link is an expose of the so-called expose of Snopes and proves that it too is a hoax. Did you even read it?

Since you used Urban Legends to dismiss the Snopes article, this is their assessment if the same alleged statements.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/government/a/Australian-Prime-Minister-Muslim-Immigrants.htm

Another source

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/gillard-muslims-leave.shtml



> I also did like you said and this what came up.......maybe you will now believe it.
> 
> http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1362369180




Your link seems to date those statement around Feb/March 2013. 

Urban Legends has Gillard saying it in 2010 and Rudd in 2009 and says various other versions of it have been circulating since 2005. And of course, you can always get it straight from the horse's mouth....

_Je dÃ©nonce un "hoax" dÃ©testable relayÃ© sur le net
Depuis quelques semaines, la toile relaye des propos inacceptables sur les musulmans qui me sont attribuÃ©s et qui se propagent sous forme de courrier Ã©lectronique repris par plusieurs blogs. Je vous confirme qu'il s'agit d'un "hoax", en franÃ§ais un canular, dÃ©testable, en  l'occurrence une fausse dÃ©claration. Ce courrier circule en rÃ©alitÃ© dans le monde entier depuis plus d'un an et a dÃ©jÃ  attribuÃ© ces propos Ã  plusieurs dirigeants ou chefs de gouvernement  Ã©trangers. J'invite les internautes qui seraient susceptibles de croiser ce canular Ã  le dÃ©noncer. Le web ne doit pas Ãªtre l'espace  des mensonges et de la haine raciste. Ceux qui me connaissent savent que de tels propos sont aux antipodes de ce que je suis, de ce que je pense, de tout  mon engagement politique rÃ©publicain e humaniste.

FranÃ§ois Fillon
_

http://www.blog-fillon.com/article-30932130.html


----------



## noco (16 October 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Actually, the Urban Legends link is an expose of the so-called expose of Snopes and proves that it too is a hoax. Did you even read it?
> 
> Since you used Urban Legends to dismiss the Snopes article, this is their assessment if the same alleged statements.
> 
> ...





I guess it is a case of who is telling the truth and what ever you want to believe.

I believe you now realize what Fillon stated is true but you have trouble in admitting it .....I know what I believe so there is no point in you coming back to me to try and prove I am wrong.....end of discussion.
You will get no more engagement from me on this matter....the subject is now closed so best we move on.


----------



## Julia (16 October 2014)

pixel said:


> Macquack,
> can you please refrain from personal comments like that.



+1.
Contributes nothing constructive.


----------



## noco (16 October 2014)

What is the hell is this one time great country of ours coming to?

Has it come to this stage where we are afraid to fly our National flag in case we offend a few Islamic radicals?

You know I hate harping on it but this exactly what Gillard planned by opening the flood gates to 50,000 Muslims..

She wanted to create dissension and division in the Australian community and now she got what she created.

Call me a racist..call me a bigot.....I don't care.

If these goons cannot accept our way of life and integrate with us, then bugger off.

If they want Sharia law then go back to where you came from....we will never accept it here.

We have one law here...it is called Australian law.......abide by it.



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...st-and-offensive/story-fnihsr9v-1227091729748


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2014)

noco said:


> What is the hell is this one time great country of ours coming to?




I'm not sure of your age Noco, but I remember a time when Australia was radically different to today. 

In the early part of my life racism didn't get a mention (it was unspoken), Tshirts with anything remotely lurid or insulting might result in a police having a word, but certainly some disapproving stares from the moral majority, we spoke with a different accent compared with the once comedic strine that seems to have eaten into our pronunciation over a generation or two and you could and would land in court for the most trivial offences to public decency and the rules.

We have moved away from a polite society to one that predicates it's current identity on a misnomered past.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> I'm not sure of your age Noco, but I remember a time when Australia was radically different to today.
> 
> In the early part of my life racism didn't get a mention (it was unspoken), Tshirts with anything remotely lurid or insulting might result in a police having a word, but certainly some disapproving stares from the moral majority, we spoke with a different accent compared with the once comedic strine that seems to have eaten into our pronunciation over a generation or two and you could and would land in court for the most trivial offences to public decency and the rules.
> 
> We have moved away from a polite society to one that predicates it's current identity on a misnomered past.





I'd rather bodgies than bogans.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I'd rather bodgies than bogans.




I often get rather confused about the origin of the word "bogan" being attributed to Kylie Mole or whoever, when I distinctly remember going through the phase of wearing black DBs, stove pipes, flanel shirt, jumper wrapped around waste, etc  and collectively we were called bogs or bogans...way before the Comedy Company show... might have been a name that came late to Victoria.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> I often get rather confused about the origin of the word "bogan" being attributed to Kylie Mole or whoever, when I distinctly remember going through the phase of wearing black DBs, stove pipes, flanel shirt, jumper wrapped around waste, etc  and collectively we were called bogs or bogans...way before the Comedy Company show... might have been a name that came late to Victoria.




I always assumed that the name derived from the bogan moths, stupid creatures that ran around in swarms annoying people and then self destructed in flames like teenagers in their cars.


----------



## noco (17 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> I'm not sure of your age Noco, but I remember a time when Australia was radically different to today.
> 
> In the early part of my life racism didn't get a mention (it was unspoken), Tshirts with anything remotely lurid or insulting might result in a police having a word, but certainly some disapproving stares from the moral majority, we spoke with a different accent compared with the once comedic strine that seems to have eaten into our pronunciation over a generation or two and you could and would land in court for the most trivial offences to public decency and the rules.
> 
> We have moved away from a polite society to one that predicates it's current identity on a misnomered past.





This maybe a bit off the beaten track of this thread, but I can tell you, having received my OBE some years ago, I have lived through what you have indicated and a lot more before.

There has been a small minority of Muslims living in Australia for many years with the odd mosque located in various parts of Australia and there were never any problems....It is only since Gillard opened the flood gates to the illegal entry of some 50,000 Muslims has the trouble began purely because of the build up in numbers they are now starting to show their muscle......They were never happy in their own country so they come to a happy Country like Australia to make us unhappy.....And now we are expected to bow to their demands.

I have said it on this Forum for some years now that the Islamic movement want world domination just like so many other organizations before them have tried and failed....They have done it  by infiltration into the Western world.

Perhaps with a little diversion from the theme of this thread, one of our biggest threats in the 1950's and 60's was communism where they infiltrated the union movement in order to destroy our economy......They did it with demands for higher wages, annual holidays from 2 to 4 weeks, 17.5% leave loading, outlandish penalty rates, shorter working weeks, strikes like you have never known before....and with all those added costs to our manufacturing industries we are suffering today....Very little is now manufactured in Australia thanks to the communist dominated unions.......unfortunately, communism still exists in the unions and the Labor party today.

So there you have it.....there have always been times when we have radical organizations wanting to disrupt our way of life.......wanting to change our way of life and wanting to force their ideology on our citizens.

So our current threat is Islam with communism taking a back seat for now.


----------



## noco (17 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I always assumed that the name derived from the bogan moths, stupid creatures that ran around in swarms annoying people and then self destructed in flames like teenagers in their cars.




Totally off the theme of this thread but in reply.

The word 'BOGAN" does not exist in the Oxford dictionary and may have been derived by some bogus individual with spurious intent to discredit another.......the word "ASSUME" can also make  AN ASS OUT OF YOU AND ME.......

Assume.....taken to be true when it may not be.

There was no 'bogan' moth but there was a bogong dark colored moth that was eaten by Aboriginals.


----------



## overhang (17 October 2014)

noco said:


> You know I hate harping on it but this exactly what Gillard planned by opening the flood gates to 50,000 Muslims..
> 
> She wanted to create dissension and division in the Australian community and now she got what she created.




This is just extremism right here, its radical on the extreme scale.  It is absolutely irrational to suggest Gillard had an agenda to lapse the immigration policy and let in 50k Muslims as to cause division in the Australian community (it was Rudd that dismantled the policy anyway).  There is no possible logical reason for this, opening the flood gates was always going to be political suicide to have such a failing immigration policy.  It's obvious that he didn't think that the policy change would have that effect (you cant really means test an immigration policy).  How many of those 50k become Australian citizens btw?  If you're going to suggest some radical thing like it was to win the Muslim vote then no, they would go after the 4-5% green vote before that.

Don't get me wrong Muslims intolerance of other cultures is a substantial risk to the future of our country which may be possible from the left wing political correct brigade but you are way off the mark on this one.


----------



## Tisme (17 October 2014)

overhang said:


> This is just extremism right here, its radical on the extreme scale.  It is absolutely irrational to suggest Gillard had an agenda to lapse the immigration policy and let in 50k Muslims as to cause division in the Australian community (it was Rudd that dismantled the policy anyway).




How do we know how many Muslims have come? I found the following appendix B interesting:


http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...entary_Library/pubs/BN/2012-2013/BoatArrivals


----------



## overhang (17 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> How do we know how many Muslims have come? I found the following appendix B interesting:
> 
> 
> http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...entary_Library/pubs/BN/2012-2013/BoatArrivals




You clearly haven't read enough Andrew Bolt blogs.  They're all Muslims and they're all ISIS (and paid up union members), Gillard invited them here to disrupt the country in attempt to convert it to a Fabian society.


----------



## noco (17 October 2014)

overhang said:


> This is just extremism right here, its radical on the extreme scale.  It is absolutely irrational to suggest Gillard had an agenda to lapse the immigration policy and let in 50k Muslims as to cause division in the Australian community (it was Rudd that dismantled the policy anyway).  There is no possible logical reason for this, opening the flood gates was always going to be political suicide to have such a failing immigration policy.  It's obvious that he didn't think that the policy change would have that effect (you cant really means test an immigration policy).  How many of those 50k become Australian citizens btw?  If you're going to suggest some radical thing like it was to win the Muslim vote then no, they would go after the 4-5% green vote before that.
> 
> Don't get me wrong Muslims intolerance of other cultures is a substantial risk to the future of our country which may be possible from the left wing political correct brigade but you are way off the mark on this one.





I have posted this before but am happy to do it again just for you.

http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/

*They have opened the doors to illegal invaders who are bringing in a religion that goes totally against our way of life. They are using Islam to create divisions in our society and turn citizen against citizen. At the same time, they have neglected our own needy; our aged and veterans, the  very citizens who have contributed so much to our country and who should now be enjoying the fruits of their labour. Instead, they are living on the brink of poverty.*


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2014)

noco said:


> I have posted this before but am happy to do it again just for you.
> 
> http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/
> 
> *They have opened the doors to illegal invaders who are bringing in a religion that goes totally against our way of life. They are using Islam to create divisions in our society and turn citizen against citizen. At the same time, they have neglected our own needy; our aged and veterans, the  very citizens who have contributed so much to our country and who should now be enjoying the fruits of their labour. Instead, they are living on the brink of poverty.*




If you continue to read those Raving Right wing nutsoid rags you will become a bitter and twisted person (totally unlike what you are now ). Gillard is gone so I don't understand your preoccupation with her. 

Labor is not a Left wing party these days, it's just that your lot are so far to the Right that a centre party like Labor looks like commos to you.

And who is neglecting our aged and veterans ? A Medicare co-payment that will hit the sick and elderly, a miserly pay offer for the armed forces, changes to pension indexation that will cost pensioners money, making the elderly work longer for retirement benefits, all instituted by the people you support. Please don't peddle hypocrisy in forums where there are intelligent people who can see through some of the trash you link to.


----------



## noco (17 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> If you continue to read those Raving Right wing nutsoid rags you will become a bitter and twisted person (totally unlike what you are now ). Gillard is gone so I don't understand your preoccupation with her.
> 
> Labor is not a Left wing party these days, it's just that your lot are so far to the Right that a centre party like Labor looks like commos to you.
> 
> And who is neglecting our aged and veterans ? A Medicare co-payment that will hit the sick and elderly, a miserly pay offer for the armed forces, changes to pension indexation that will cost pensioners money, making the elderly work longer for retirement benefits, all instituted by the people you support. Please don't peddle hypocrisy in forums where there are intelligent people who can see through some of the trash you link to.




Your post is off topic.

Well, what do you expect? ....Do you expect the current Government to go on borrowing a $100,000,000  each day as did Labor for future generations to pay back.......If the Fabians had not wasted so much of tax payers money in 2007 to 2013 we would not be in the mess we are today.......Savings have to be made so please don't try to hide the facts............you know as well as every body else, the honey pot is empty.......Please don't blame the GFC......The liberals could have done twice as much with half the money wasted by Labor.

The truth always hurts and that is why you revert to insults.....you are a hypocrite after accusing me of insults.............you don't seem to take any notice of the moderator or are you trying to be one yourself?


----------



## SirRumpole (17 October 2014)

noco said:


> Your post is off topic.
> 
> Well, what do you expect? ....Do you expect the current Government to go on borrowing a $100,000,000  each day as did Labor for future generations to pay back.......If the Fabians had not wasted so much of tax payers money in 2007 to 2013 we would not be in the mess we are today.......Savings have to be made so please don't try to hide the facts............you know as well as every body else, the honey pot is empty.......Please don't blame the GFC......The liberals could have done twice as much with half the money wasted by Labor.
> 
> The truth always hurts and that is why you revert to insults.....you are a hypocrite after accusing me of insults.............you don't seem to take any notice of the moderator or are you trying to be one yourself?




Pointing out hypocrisy with evidence is not insults, it's the truth.

Yes, savings must be made, so why introduce an expensive paid parental leave plan ?

Anyway, you are correct, this subject is off topic on this thread.


----------



## noco (17 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Pointing out hypocrisy with evidence is not insults, it's the truth.
> 
> Yes, savings must be made, so why introduce an expensive paid parental leave plan ?
> 
> Anyway, you are correct, this subject is off topic on this thread.




If you continue to read those Raving Right wing nutsoid rags* you will become a bitter and twisted person (totally unlike what you are now ). Gillard is gone so I don't understand your preoccupation with her. 
*
So you do not consider the high lights an insult..."a bitter and twisted person (totally unlike you are now".)...you certainly have a queer way of thinking.

Once again you are off topic of this thread....What has the PPl got to do with the "100 year Jihard"?


----------



## overhang (17 October 2014)

noco said:


> I have posted this before but am happy to do it again just for you.
> 
> http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/
> 
> *They have opened the doors to illegal invaders who are bringing in a religion that goes totally against our way of life. They are using Islam to create divisions in our society and turn citizen against citizen. At the same time, they have neglected our own needy; our aged and veterans, the  very citizens who have contributed so much to our country and who should now be enjoying the fruits of their labour. Instead, they are living on the brink of poverty.*




I can't believe I actually took the time to read that rubbish, the scary part is I can really imagine you nodding your head in agreement to every unsubstantiated point made.  This is just as extreme as the same terrorists this thread is about however the end objective isn't so I'm in no way asserting these views are harmful but certainly extreme.

But your link in know way proves your radical point that Gillard (who didn't alter the policy)  wanted to create dissension and division in the Australian community.  It's interesting because most people even when they are opposed to an opposite political view can accept that the opposites are trying to do what's for the greater good of the country but normally disagree on how they go about it.  But here you are claiming she was actually trying to ruin the country.


----------



## noco (18 October 2014)

overhang said:


> I can't believe I actually took the time to read that rubbish, the scary part is I can really imagine you nodding your head in agreement to every unsubstantiated point made.  This is just as extreme as the same terrorists this thread is about however the end objective isn't so I'm in no way asserting these views are harmful but certainly extreme.
> 
> But your link in know way proves your radical point that Gillard (who didn't alter the policy)  wanted to create dissension and division in the Australian community.  It's interesting because most people even when they are opposed to an opposite political view can accept that the opposites are trying to do what's for the greater good of the country but normally disagree on how they go about it.  But here you are claiming she was actually trying to ruin the country.




Rubbish ha!!!!.......well you cannot deny the fact there were demonstrations in the streets of Sydney yesterday.....Australians protesting about the Islamic activities......Muslims protesting about Australia .if that is not division in the community I don't know what you would call it.....I happened to see it on one of the TV channels and will try and obtain a link for you.

http://www.news.com.au/national/mus...ba-who-were-they/story-fncynjr2-1227064573689

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-...-mosque-development-on-sunshine-coast/5757964


----------



## DB008 (18 October 2014)

*Al-Qaeda wants Muslims to join Islamic State*



> TERROR group Al-Qaeda has called on Muslims worldwide to join Islamic State in their quest to create a caliphate as the militants continue to be beaten back in both Syria and Iraq.
> 
> For the second day, Iraq and Kurd forces backed by Coalition air strikes and on-the- ground US and UK military advisers successfully fought battles on multiple fronts halting the militants’ momentum.
> 
> In Tikrit, north of Baghdad Iraqi forces backed by their air force destroyed six ISIS armoured personnel carriers and an unknown number of militants while fierce battles also raged about Ramadi in the country’s north west where a curfew has now been imposed.




http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/alqaeda-wants-muslims-to-join-islamic-state/story-fnh81ifq-1227094687177


----------



## noco (18 October 2014)

overhang said:


> I can't believe I actually took the time to read that rubbish, the scary part is I can really imagine you nodding your head in agreement to every unsubstantiated point made.  This is just as extreme as the same terrorists this thread is about however the end objective isn't so I'm in no way asserting these views are harmful but certainly extreme.
> 
> But your link in know way proves your radical point that Gillard (who didn't alter the policy)  wanted to create dissension and division in the Australian community.  It's interesting because most people even when they are opposed to an opposite political view can accept that the opposites are trying to do what's for the greater good of the country but normally disagree on how they go about it.  But here you are claiming she was actually trying to ruin the country.




So can you tell me why Rudd/Gillard let so many illegals into Australia via people smugglers from 2008 to 2013?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2014)

noco said:


> So can you tell me why Rudd/Gillard let so many illegals into Australia via people smugglers from 2008 to 2013?




A misplaced sense of humanitarianism ?

Surely not even you would suggest any Australian government would actively support or encourage terrorism ? That seems to be the thrust of your argument, or have I misunderstood you ?


----------



## noco (18 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> A misplaced sense of humanitarianism ?
> 
> Surely not even you would suggest any Australian government would actively support or encourage terrorism ? That seems to be the thrust of your argument, or have I misunderstood you ?




I don't know about your misunderstanding, but the question was not directed to you....Are you Overhung or underhung.

The question was quite explicit as far as I am concerned.

If 1 in a 100 out of those 50,000 were terrorists then that was one too many.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2014)

noco said:


> I don't know about your misunderstanding, but the question was not directed to you.
> 
> The question was quite explicit as far as I am concerned.




Sorry, I didn't realise you were having a personal conversation.

Perhaps you should use PM if you don't want interlopers intruding into your personal space.


----------



## noco (18 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry, I didn't realise you were having a personal conversation.
> 
> Perhaps you should use PM if you don't want interlopers intruding into your personal space.




That's OK....I did not mean you did not have a right of reply, but you certainly did not understand the question.

The question was.......why did Rudd/Gillard open the borders to allow 50,000 illegals to enter Australia via people smugglers. 2008 to 2013.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2014)

noco said:


> That's OK....I did not mean you did not have a right of reply, but you certainly did not understand the question.
> 
> The question was.......why did Rudd/Gillard open the borders to allow 50,000 illegals to enter Australia via people smugglers. 2008 to 2013.




I provided an answer. I'm interested to hear  why you think they did it.


----------



## noco (19 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> A misplaced sense of humanitarianism ?
> 
> Surely not even you would suggest any Australian government would actively support or encourage terrorism ? That seems to be the thrust of your argument, or have I misunderstood you ?




Rumpy, that was not an answer...you merely skirted around the question.

I have already given you the answer (my post 342) as to why Rudd/Gillard allowed the flood of 50,000 illegals into Australia but you won't accept the answer because you just do not believe how the Fabian Society works with their subtle approach to Democratic Socialism as they call it, but is really Communism....If you don't believe what I am trying to explain to you, then I suggest you go to Google and type in Fabian Society.....I am sure you will learn a lot for yourself....It will also tell you who are the past and present Fabian members...starting at the top Gough Whitlam is still their patron......the shadow treasurer Chris Bowen and Jenny Macklin are members.


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## SirRumpole (19 October 2014)

noco said:


> Rumpy, that was not an answer...you merely skirted around the question.
> 
> I have already given you the answer as to why Rudd/Gillard allowed the flood of 50,000 illegals into Australia but you won't accept the answer because you just do not believe how the Fabian Society works with their subtle approach to Democratic Socialism as they call it, but is really Communism....If you don't believe what I am trying to explain to you, then I suggest you go to Google and type in Fabian Society.....I am sure you will learn a lot for yourself....It will also tell you who are the past and present Fabian members...starting at the top Gough Whitlam is still their patron......the shadow treasurer Chris Bowen and Jenny Macklin are members.




I don't really see the link between refugees and Communism. I thought your main problem with refugees was that they are Muslims. The link between Muslims and Communists escapes me. Are you really saying all those refugees were Commies in disguise and would be used as some sort of underground in a new Communist uprising ?


----------



## noco (19 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't really see the link between refugees and Communism. I thought your main problem with refugees was that they are Muslims. The link between Muslims and Communists escapes me. Are you really saying all those refugees were Commies in disguise and would be used as some sort of underground in a new Communist uprising ?




No Rumpy, I am not saying there is a link between Muslims and Communism, they are your words.

It would not have mattered whether they were Muslims or Communists or some other race or religion......What Gillard did was to create dissension and division in the community as has been proven.......she wanted the average Australian up in arms about the social security that was provided for the so called refugees..........$11 billion was used up over her reign and it is still costing the Aussie tax payer dearly and will do for some time to come.

Gillard wanted discontent in the community not only with refugees but with our industries, mining, agriculture, Carbon tax and the mining tax.....All these things add up to the burden of additional costs which in turn sends business into insolvency or overseas......loss of industry and loss of jobs.....There modus operandi was to nationalize industry, mining, agriculture and the banks and they were doing it in a very subtle way with out many people knowing.

Sorry to be a bit off this thread but the refugee problem is all a part of the link to what the Fabians are up to.

No doubt in your usual manner you will attack my Character...go for your life.....it will not worry me one bit.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2014)

noco said:


> No Rumpy, I am not saying there is a link between Muslims and Communism, they are your words.
> 
> It would not have mattered whether they were Muslims or Communists or some other race or religion......What Gillard did was to create dissension and division in the community as has been proven.......she wanted the average Australian up in arms about the social security that was provided for the so called refugees..........$11 billion was used up over her reign and it is still costing the Aussie tax payer dearly and will do for some time to come.
> 
> ...




I'm not going to attack your character , just your reasoning.

OK , so you are saying Labor wanted to nationalise mining, industry and banking.

I think they certainly wanted a better return out of the minerals that we as a country own, but that's hardly nationalisation. Nationalisation is taking OWNERSHIP of industries by compulsorally  acquiring shares. 

There was never any attempt to take ownership of banks, so any plans Labor had in this area must have been very subtle. As for industries like the car industry, if taxpayer money was shovelled into them, then there SHOULD have been government ownership, but there never was. Again, so much for nationalisation.

Any you still haven't pointed out any links at all between refugees and this so-called non existent nationalisation, so as far as I can see there is no evidence at all to back up what you are trying to insinuate about Gillard.


----------



## overhang (19 October 2014)

noco said:


> So can you tell me why Rudd/Gillard let so many illegals into Australia via people smugglers from 2008 to 2013?




Well Rudd believed they could have a more humane immigration policy and still control the borders, obviously this policy failed and was a major contributing factor to the demise of the Labor government.  Considering the political suicide of failing to control the borders it's a lot more plausible than your theory Gillard intended to open the borders to create division in society.

So a couple of questions for you then, how many of the 50k were Muslims?  How many of those went on to become Australian citizens?


----------



## luutzu (19 October 2014)

overhang said:


> Well Rudd believed they could have a more humane immigration policy and still control the borders, obviously this policy failed and was a major contributing factor to the demise of the Labor government.  Considering the political suicide of failing to control the borders it's a lot more plausible than your theory Gillard intended to open the borders to create division in society.
> 
> So a couple of questions for you then, how many of the 50k were Muslims?  How many of those went on to become Australian citizens?




Am pretty sure wanting to tax the miners and carbon taxing industries play a bigger part than refugees.


----------



## overhang (19 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> Am pretty sure wanting to tax the miners and carbon taxing industries play a bigger part than refugees.




Agree on the carbon tax but not the mining tax.  News corp ran a very vocal campaign about the influx of boats, it become a major political topic amongst the public.  Why do you think that the 'stop the boats' catch phrase was so prominent during the election campaign by Abbott?


----------



## luutzu (19 October 2014)

There's an interesting docu giving some context into the current ISIS problem and Iraq 3: Operation Inherent Resolve - *PBS Frontline: Losing Iraq*. 



It might just be more of a civil war than a death cult wanting world domination.


----------



## luutzu (19 October 2014)

overhang said:


> Agree on the carbon tax but not the mining tax.  News corp ran a very vocal campaign about the influx of boats, it become a major political topic amongst the public.  Why do you think that the 'stop the boats' catch phrase was so prominent during the election campaign by Abbott?




Yea, but people don't really decide, industry do


----------



## DB008 (20 October 2014)

*Britain may use mediaeval treason law to tackle Islamist fighters*




> LONDON, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Britain may use a mediaeval law dating to 1351 to charge citizens with treason if they go to fight with Islamic State insurgents in Iraq and Syria, Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said.
> 
> Prime Minister David Cameron has warned that Islamic State, whose fighters have seized large areas of Syria and Iraq, pose a grave threat to Britain while police and intelligence officers say they have seen a rise in potentially deadly plots.
> 
> ...





http://www.trust.org/item/20141017111739-zabde/


----------



## darkhorse70 (23 October 2014)

Unfortunately my cousin was converted by his fellow friends to islam. Actually we are the same age and were in the same year at school. You cannot argue or win any debate with these people. 

You state facts. They state the koran says this or that. These people do not care about this life. For them the "after life" is all that matters. There mission is to take over the whole god damn world.

My whole nation was slaughtered by muslims at the very turn of the 20th century just because we were christians. Actually it was the first genocide of the 20th century which is still being denied.

As I told my cousin, if your aim is to create an islamic state of any kind (which most muslims want, discretely ofcourse)meaning that others cant have the freedom of choice, be accepted for their opinions (muslim=opression) then that person is the enemy.

There is a man at my dads work. His brother was murdered for preaching Christianity overseas by muslims. Who the f does that.


----------



## darkhorse70 (23 October 2014)

Disclaimer* I dont care what religion you are. If your way of living doesnt compromise freedom of speech/opinion etc then we are all good.


----------



## noco (24 October 2014)

It is high time we did the same thing here.......Muslims either accept our way of life or go back to where they came from......we do not need their customs or Sharia law....they have to abide by our laws.

MAYOR REFUSES TO REMOVE PORK FROM SCHOOL CANTEEN- MENU - EXPLAINS  WHY

Muslim parents demanded the abolition of pork in all the school canteens of Ath in  Belgium .

Marc Duvivier the mayor of Ath, has refused, and the town clerk sent a note to all parents to explain why.

“Muslims must understand that they have to adapt to  Belgium , its customs, its traditions, its way of life, because that's where they chose to immigrate.

They must understand that they have to integrate and learn to live in Belgium .

They must understand that it is for them to change their lifestyle, not the Belgians who so generously welcomed them.

They must understand that the Athois are neither racist nor xenophobic,  they accepted many immigrants before Muslims (whereas the reverse is true that Muslims do not accept non-Muslim foreigners on their soil) except as temporary workers in the oil fields and in construction.

That no more than other nations, the Belgians are not willing to give up their identity, their culture.

And if  Belgium is a land of welcome, it's not Marc Duvivier that welcomes foreigners, but the Belgian people as a whole.

Finally, they must understand that in  Belgium with its Judeo-Christian roots, Christmas trees, churches and religious festivals, religion must remain in the private domain. The  municipality of  Ath was right to refuse any concessions to Islam and Sharia.

For Muslims that disagree with secularism and do not feel comfortable in Belgium , there are 57 beautiful Muslim countries in the world, most of them under-populated and ready to receive them with open halal arms in accordance with Shariah.

If you left your country for  Belgium , and not for other Muslim countries, it is because you have considered that life is better in  Belgium than elsewhere.

Ask yourself the question, just once, “Why is it better here in  Belgium than where you come from?”

A canteen with pork is part of the answer.


----------



## Tisme (24 October 2014)

Good to see the wannabe head loppin', kid Fayez is back in school after his dad went to Syria and dragged him back home. Imagine the great adventure he can tell his muslim cohorts at East Hills Boys High School. Those whacky teenagers... you gotta laugh at their antics!!!


----------



## darkhorse70 (24 October 2014)

Most of the problem lies with the children. We all need to live for a great cause or one worth dedicating oursepves to.

Now when you are a failure at school, or dont have a big passion worth pursuing then I think thats when these kids get lured into being a hero and being praised etc etc by god/others etc.

If they were satisfied individuals with what they had then this stuff wouldnt be an issue.


----------



## bellenuit (24 October 2014)

noco said:


> It is high time we did the same thing here.......Muslims either accept our way of life or go back to where they came from......we do not need their customs or Sharia law....they have to abide by our laws.
> 
> MAYOR REFUSES TO REMOVE PORK FROM SCHOOL CANTEEN- MENU - EXPLAINS  WHY




Here we go again.......

_*Outline*
Circulating message features a strident letter supposedly sent to parents by Marc Duvivier, the mayor of the Belgium municipality of Ath, explaining why he refused to give in to demands from local Muslims to remove pork from school canteen menus.

*Brief Analysis*
The claims in the message are untrue. It is a hoax that first began circulating in 2013. No such letter was ever sent to parents. And Mayor Marc Duvivier has stated that the municipality never received any demands or requests to ban pork from canteens and the issue was never even discussed. Sharing this hoax will do nothing other than foster bigotry and hatred against Muslim members of the community.
_

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/hoax-belgium-mayor-refuses-remove-pork-school-canteen.shtml

Also:

http://snopes.com/politics/religion/belgiumpork.asp


----------



## DB008 (24 October 2014)

Sorry, a bit late on this one...



> *Attack on Ottawa: PM Harper cites terrorist motive*
> 
> The attack on Parliament Hill’s Centre Block and the National War Memorial has left one Canadian soldier and one male suspect dead.
> 
> During an address to the nation, Prime Minster Stephen Harper said the incident in Ottawa was a 'terrorist' act. Mr. Harper also indicated that it remains unclear whether the man shot dead on Parliament Hill Wednesday acted alone.




http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/breaking-news-oct-22/article21217602/?click=sf_globe#dashboard/follows/


----------



## luutzu (24 October 2014)

darkhorse70 said:


> Most of the problem lies with the children. We all need to live for a great cause or one worth dedicating oursepves to.
> 
> Now when you are a failure at school, or dont have a big passion worth pursuing then I think thats when these kids get lured into being a hero and being praised etc etc by god/others etc.
> 
> If they were satisfied individuals with what they had then this stuff wouldnt be an issue.




I think that's very true. Youth is the age where we all want to do something "great", full of dreams and idealism and when there are no opportunities to direct those rebellious drive and ambition, no proper guidance from family... people could be taken advantage of and be persuaded to do others' bidding. Some volunteer for the UN and World Vision, others goes on Crusades and Jihads.


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## luutzu (24 October 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Here we go again.......
> 
> _*Outline*
> Circulating message features a strident letter supposedly sent to parents by Marc Duvivier, the mayor of the Belgium municipality of Ath, explaining why he refused to give in to demands from local Muslims to remove pork from school canteen menus.
> ...




Noco, maybe time to unsubscribe to these newsletters? Quite unreliable.

To the point, I don't have the stats or the surveys but from the people I know who immigrated to Australia, they generally consider Australia a land of the White Australians - that it is your country, your land and we will play by your rules. I don't know anyone who's upset by that fact... it's just facts... and they tend to be grateful that you allow them refuge, that you welcome them as one of your own.

I think immigrants are more than happy that the law allows them to continue practising their religion and cultural beliefs... none, OK, most, don't set out to overthrow the gov't or the cultural norms here.

So if your comments are directed at the immigrants, there's no need for it. If it directs at the children of those immigrants... that's unnecessary and wrong. Unnecessary because humans generally will just adapt to the cultural norms of their society, act and behave like those they grow up around; Unnecessary because for the few that don't assimilate at all and demand the majority to follow their moral and religious beliefs... well our laws and our people will tell them where to go and what to do there.

That demand to adapt or leave is really wrong because who are you to tell the people that were born and grew up here to act like you - the "real" Australian? All societies are diverse and constantly evolving... anyway...


----------



## noco (2 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> Noco, maybe time to unsubscribe to these newsletters? Quite unreliable.
> 
> To the point, I don't have the stats or the surveys but from the people I know who immigrated to Australia, they generally consider Australia a land of the White Australians - that it is your country, your land and we will play by your rules. I don't know anyone who's upset by that fact... it's just facts... and they tend to be grateful that you allow them refuge, that you welcome them as one of your own.
> 
> ...




So how would you and me have to act if we migrated to a Muslim country?...would would be able to practice Christianity or live the life of an infidel without the fear of having our throats cut?...would we be able to send all our kids to school including females?......Would my wife or daughter be allowed to wear a bikini on the beach in a Muslim Country?
Would we be disallowed  to eat pork because we like it?
I don't think you and I would last to long....you maybe if you are a Muslim.

This war against Islam has been going on for 1400 years and they have been beaten off every time....they will not succeed with world domination......to hell with them.

*NO apologies to make to anyone who is offended by this – especially in light of the terrorist attack on our Parliament this very morning.  Today, we the people of Canada have hopefully lost a good deal of our innocence about evil in the world and how we MUST deal with it.  The following is not only timely but entirely appropriate given the FACTS!  Facts are such stubborn things.



:


  This is all factually (and historically) correct - and verifiable.
If you even go back further..
.. In 732 AD the Muslim Army which was moving on Paris was defeated and turned back at Tours, France, by Charles Martell.
…in 1571 AD the Muslim Army/Navy was defeated by the Italians and Austrians as they tried to cross the Mediterranean to attack Southern Europe in the Battle of Lapanto.
....in 1683 AD the Turkish Muslim Army, attacking Eastern Europe, was finally defeated in the Battle of Vienna by German and Polish Christian Armies.
....this has been going on for 1,400 years and half of these politicians don't even know it !!!
…if these battles had not been won we might be speaking Arabic and Christianity could be non - existent;
Judaism certainly would be... And let us not forget that Hitler was an admirer of Islam and that the Mufti of Jerusalem was Hitler's guest in Berlin and raised Bosnian Muslim SS Divisions: the 13th and 21st Waffen SS Divisions who killed Jews, Russians, Gypsies, and any other "subhuman's".
Reflecting A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality that they imagine that America can suffer defeat without any inconvenience to them selves.
........Pause a moment, reflect back. These events are actual events from history. They really happened!!!
Do you remember?
1. In 1968, Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male.
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim males.
3. In 1972 a Pan Am 747 was hijacked and eventually diverted to Cairo where a fuse was lit on final approach, it was blown up shortly after landing by Muslim males
4. In 1973 a Pan Am 707 was destroyed in Rome, with 33 people killed, when it was attacked with grenades by Muslim males.
5. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim males.
6. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim males.
7. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim males.
8. In 1985, the Cruise Ship Achilles Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim males.
9. In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim males.
10. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim males.
11. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim males.
12. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim males.
13. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim males.
14. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim males.
15. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and beheaded by---you guessed it was a--- Muslim male.
16. In 2013, Boston Marathon Bombing 4 Innocent people including a child killed, 264 injured by Muslim males.
No, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?
So, to ensure we Americans and Canadians never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. So, ask yourself"Just how stupid are we???"
Absolutely No Profiling!
They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old, Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males,alone lest they be guilty of profiling. Ask yourself "Just how stupid are we?"
Have the American  and Canadian people completely lost their Minds, or just their Power of Reason???
Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Aldreds and other stupid attorneys along with Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense, feel ashamed of themselves -- if they have any such sense.
As the writer of the award winning story 'Forrest Gump' so aptly put it, 'Stupid Is As Stupid Does'.
Each opportunity that you have to send this to a friend or media outlet...
Do It! OR SIT BACK, JUST KEEP GRIPING, AND DO-NOTHING.



*


----------



## luutzu (2 November 2014)

noco said:


> So how would you and me have to act if we migrated to a Muslim country?...would would be able to practice Christianity or live the life of an infidel without the fear of having our throats cut?...would we be able to send all our kids to school including females?......Would my wife or daughter be allowed to wear a bikini on the beach in a Muslim Country?
> Would we be disallowed  to eat pork because we like it?
> I don't think you and I would last to long....you maybe if you are a Muslim.
> 
> ...




I saw lots of Arab girls going to school where I live, saw them at it when I was going to school. I don't think banning girls from going to school has anything to do with being Arabs or Muslim. I'm sure girls are going to school in Muslim countries like Pakistan or Malaysia, even Iran if I saw it right. 

Yea, you have idiots running countries, like the Taliban used to in Afghanistan... but that's taking an extreme, ultra religious and cultural interpretation of Islam or something. I mean, there are certain Jewish religious people whose practices of some form of Judaism that doesn't permit them to sit next to women, even on a plane.

Ever heard of Yin and Yang? That Chinese Taoist religion with that black/white fish-like symbol in a circle? Well, from that Aussie movie "Two Hands", the narrator explains that just like that Taoist symbol, there is some goodness in what is evil, some evil in what is generally good. 

That there is some black in white, some white in black. BUt in looking at Islam and the Arabs, you focus on the bad things and magnify that as though that's all they are when in fact it could just be a small part of it or some idiots' interpretation of it. 

That list is factual (as far as I can tell), but it's a bit selective isn't it ?

You tried that kebab yet? Have ones from a proper restaurant where they actually BBQ real meat. It's quite something.


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## herzy (2 November 2014)

noco said:


> So how would you and me have to act if we migrated to a Muslim country?...would would be able to practice Christianity or live the life of an infidel without the fear of having our throats cut?...would we be able to send all our kids to school including females?......Would my wife or daughter be allowed to wear a bikini on the beach in a Muslim Country?
> Would we be disallowed  to eat pork because we like it?
> I don't think you and I would last to long....you maybe if you are a Muslim.
> 
> ...




Muslims make up about a third of the world's population mate. I'm sure we can find a list of 16 atrocities that were committed by Christians (and Hindus, Buddhists and atheists). 

To answer your questions: 
- no idea about immigration rights, sorry
- yes, you're allowed to practice Christianity in many Muslim countries (and 'live the life of an infidel')
- yes, females go to school in Muslim countries
- yes, your wife and daughter are allowed to wear bikinis in Muslim countries
- yes, you can eat pork in Muslim countries. 

Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia (and Bali), Brunei - all (Muslim) countries where you would have absolutely no problems doing any of those things. 

Not sure what your point is.


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## DB008 (8 November 2014)

*Four men arrested for allegedly plotting a terror attack to kill Queen*

Religion of peace.....


*Four men arrested for allegedly plotting a terror attack to kill Queen Elizabeth*



> A SUSPECTED plot to kill the Queen at a Royal British Legion event ahead of Remembrance Day at the Royal Albert Hall has been foiled by police.
> 
> British tabloid The Sun reports four Islamic terror suspects are thought to have been planning a knife attack on Her Majesty, 88.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/world/four-men-arrested-for-allegedly-plotting-a-terror-attack-to-kill-queen-elizabeth/story-fndir2ev-1227116658248


----------



## DB008 (16 November 2014)

*British jihadists who fight with ISIS will be barred from returning home (for 2 years) under new anti-terror laws*



> British jihadists who fight for ISIS in Syria and Iraq are to be barred from returning home for at least two years to prevent terror attacks.
> 
> It is one of a series of new anti-terror laws being unveiled by David Cameron Friday, including powers to strip teenage jihadists of their passports and to bar airlines from landing in the U.K. if they fail to provide passenger information.
> 
> ...





http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/11/14/british-jihadists-who-fight-with-isis-will-be-barred-from-returning-home-under-new-anti-terror-laws/


----------



## DB008 (17 November 2014)

*Abdul-Rahman Kassig: US hostage 'killed by IS'*



> A video posted online claims to show that Islamic State militants have killed the captured US aid worker Abdul-Rahman Kassig.
> 
> The video shows a masked man standing over a severed head which he says is that of Mr Kassig.
> 
> ...




http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30073602


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## Wysiwyg (17 November 2014)

herzy said:


> Muslims make up about a third of the world's population mate. I'm sure we can find a list of 16 atrocities that were committed by Christians (and Hindus, Buddhists and atheists).



The IRA were terrorists awhile back too using a similar brand of extremism. 

What flamed this business at present is the invasion of Iraq. There was no need to go into Iraq when the preferred method, and I notice practiced with North Korea who do have nukes, is sanctions and international isolation. From the brash youth to the dumb-asses in high places, the consequences of their actions are rarely considered.


----------



## Calliope (17 November 2014)

I wonder how many of these sick monsters are Aussie boys? 


> IT was the text message from the latest recruits to Islamic State that broke a mother’s heart: “Arrived in Syria. We will see you in paradise.”
> 
> The mother of the four western Sydney men believed to have joined the 70-odd Australians fighting for the terrorist organisation received the message on Friday, a day before her sons were due to return from a “free holiday” they had won to Thailand.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/mums-jihad-fears-confirmed-by-text/story-e6frg6n6-1227124992378







An image grab taken from a propaganda video released on Sunday by Al-Furqan Media allegedly shows members of the Islamic State jihadist group preparing the simultaneous beheadings of at least 15 men described as Syrian military personnel. In the highly choreographed sequence, jihadists march the prisoners by a wooden box of long military knives, each taking one as they pass, before forcing their victims to kneel in a line and decapitating them.


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## Craton (17 November 2014)

Dumber and dumber, or should that be blubber and blubber? One things for sure, they are ALL stupid psychos :bad:



> TWO of the four Sydney brothers recruited to the Islamic State terrorist group have been revealed to be “obese” and “unfit”, and are unlikely to be allowed to fight.




Link: http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw...to-islamic-state/story-fnj3rq0y-1227125370841


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## DB008 (19 November 2014)

*Al Qaeda confidant turned CIA informant Morten Storm says Australian jihadists should be banned from coming home*



> A former Danish bikie who became an Al Qaeda jihadist and then turned CIA informant has warned Australia to stop home-grown terrorists from returning home.
> 
> "This is a war. These people have declared war against us. We are in a war… I think we should not allow them to come back," Morten Storm told 7.30.
> 
> ...




More on link below...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-17/jihadist-turned-cia-informant-morten-storm-warns-against-radica/5897434


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## Calliope (20 November 2014)

Craton said:


> Dumber and dumber, or should that be blubber and blubber? One things for sure, they are ALL stupid psychos :bad:






> TWO of the four Sydney brothers recruited to the Islamic State terrorist group have been revealed to be “obese” and “unfit”, and are unlikely to be allowed to fight.




I suppose they can still be used for chopping heads off.


----------



## Calliope (23 November 2014)

Why Australia holds the record for the export of more Jihadists per capita than any other Western country.



> An estimated 250 Australians have flown to the Middle East to wage jihad. Yet Indonesia, a Muslim country with 10-times our population, has produced 60. We have more IS recruits than the US.
> 
> Visiting terrorism expert Aaron Zelin, from the Washington Institute, suggests the US is a less fertile recruiting ground because its Muslim population may be better integrated than in Australia and Europe, due to the fact its original migrants tended to be better educated than ours.
> 
> ...



. (my bolds)

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...l_makes_work_for_our_idle_welfare_recipients/


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## SirRumpole (23 November 2014)

> But he also suggests that generous welfare in Australia and Europe may hold a clue.




Yes, the sooner we realise we are actually financing people to sit around and be radicalised, the sooner we should do something about it.

More work for the dole, less familiy tax benefits that fund the seemingly endless children that some people have, and more waiting time for immigrants to receive family tax benefits (at the moment there is no waiting time) will ensure that people who come here from other parts are willing to work to get ahead, not live off the rest of us.


----------



## luutzu (23 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> Why Australia holds the record for the export of more Jihadists per capita than any other Western country.
> 
> . (my bolds)
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...l_makes_work_for_our_idle_welfare_recipients/




Yea, "Cut welfare! Stop terrorism!"
Have to say that that's a new one. 

I've heard of Welfare Queens rocking up to their Centrelink in limousines to collect food stamps and welfare cheques.. but Jihadists?


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## Wysiwyg (23 November 2014)

> But he also suggests that generous welfare in Australia and Europe may hold a clue.



A check whether the 250 mercenaries that went to join the rest of the rotting corpses had jobs would prove this assertion true or false.


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## Calliope (23 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> I've heard of Welfare Queens rocking up to their Centrelink in limousines to collect food stamps and welfare cheques.. but Jihadists?




Muslim families typically have four or more children, while other Australians have one or two. So they can do do very nicely on family benefits without working, They don't have to rock up to Certrelink. The money goes straight into their bank accounts.

Just to put you on the right track...you have placed your rocking Welfare Queens in the wrong country. We don't have food stamps here, but if you rock up to Centrelink for a handout, they will have a list  printed out of the local charities that can help you out with food/household goods/furniture etc.


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## luutzu (23 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> Muslim families typically have four or more children, while other Australians have one or two. So they can do do very nicely on family benefits without working, They don't have to rock up to Certrelink. The money goes straight into their bank accounts.
> 
> Just to put you on the right track...you have placed your rocking Welfare Queens in the wrong country. We don't have food stamps here, but if you rock up to Centrelink for a handout, they will have a list  printed out of the local charities that can help you out with food/household goods/furniture etc.




I did say "their Centrelink" - i.e. their welfare office; their version of Centrelink.

Does food and clothing and tuitions and other costs benefit from economy of scales too? I understand that you can hand down clothes, share toys... but people in general eat the same amount of food or use the same amount of water to drink or shower regardless of how many other people are in the family. 


Must be nice to not think twice about what others are saying, but then why think when what they're saying is what you already believe.

Let say all Jihadists are welfare dependent, what's yours and that "expert's" solution? Cut welfare? Let the needy Australians starve or get a real job in case some of them are turning radicals and saving it up to go and wage war? If yes, will you suggest we turn it back on after ISIS is defeated? Or will there be new enemies by then that welfare might also be funding?

I once read this American banking CEO - who was getting some $20 or $60 million in pay per year... this guy who earns at least $9K an hour, per hour $9,000!  somehow said that people who lives off welfare are having it too good; that the minimum wage of $8 an hour is too high... that these benefits will make them lazy and not driven and will ruin the American economy.

I guess instead of letting food fire their belly, we ought to let starvation fire their ambition to get on in life... Tough love and all. Don't think that same dude have any issue with the $800 billion or so banking bailout though.


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## Calliope (23 November 2014)

I don't know what you are so worked up about luutzu. It was only a suggestion as to why Australia contributes so many young Jihadists to the IS cause. Perhaps you know a better reason, or maybe have inside knowledge, or even have a suggestion, as to why they hate us and love the IS. I'd love to hear it.

Their parents purportedly came here to escape the type of persecution the young Jihadists are now supporting. Why? You obviously know the answer.


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## luutzu (24 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> I don't know what you are so worked up about luutzu. It was only a suggestion as to why Australia contributes so many young Jihadists to the IS cause. Perhaps you know a better reason, or maybe have inside knowledge, or even have a suggestion, as to why they hate us and love the IS. I'd love to hear it.
> 
> Their parents purportedly came here to escape the type of persecution the young Jihadists are now supporting. Why? You obviously know the answer.




I wasn't worked up, was watching CollegeHumor on Youtube for all you know.

You know, you shouldn't callously make or believe such sweeping generalisation about groups of people like that. At the risk of being dramatic about it, it's that kind of "only a suggestion" that leads to intolerance, persecution and even death to way too many people then and since - remember Nazi Germany/Europe?

I've talked elsewhere about possible reasons why anyone, Jihadist or otherwise, would want to join armies... and you don't need insider knowledge, just a bit of brain.

First of all, if they hate us so much, it does not make sense that they would try to escape from us to wage war thousands of miles away from us. Maybe they really hate us, we're their number one enemy, so they... they fly to IS, be on our terror list, let instructions and weapons, then hopefully come back here unnoticed to then do us harm.

I'm not making light of terrorism or its threats... but those who just on top of their head make idiotic assumptions and point fingers at every thing remotely related or look like a terrorist might be doing more harm - both to counter-terrorism efforts as well as our society and its values.

Second, it is perfectly plausible that there are less US Jihadist and radicals going to join ISIS appear so because they  prefer to stay back and plan attacks there. I hope that's not true, but it is more plausible than this so call "expert"'s suggestion that by the stats, US have less radicals and less terrorists because less welfare and more educated migrants.


Are you a parent? Would you imagine ever persuading your kids to go off and fight and die? Why would any other parents do that? Because they're Muslim and Islam preaches hate?

If Britain or the US is at war, would you send your kids over? You might be sympathetic to the cause, might share a common hatred of your "brothers" enemies, but it's quite unlikely that you would pack your kids bag and tell them to go die for some idiots cause.

Anyway, back to Badman's on YouTube.


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## Calliope (24 November 2014)

luutzu, none of your rationale for these young radical Jihadists is as plausible as "expert" Aaron Zelin's suggestion, as to why we export more of them to the IS than the US.



> You know, you shouldn't callously make or believe such sweeping generalisation about groups of people like that. At the risk of being dramatic about it, it's that kind of "only a suggestion" that leads to intolerance, persecution and even death to way too many people then and since - remember Nazi Germany/Europe?




WOW...to think a *suggestion* could lead to a holocaust!!! Perhaps we need a *"Suggestion Police"* like the Gestapo or the KGB.


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## luutzu (25 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> luutzu, none of your rationale for these young radical Jihadists is as plausible as "expert" Aaron Zelin's suggestion, as to why we export more of them to the IS than the US.
> 
> WOW...to think a *suggestion* could lead to a holocaust!!! Perhaps we need a *"Suggestion Police"* like the Gestapo or the KGB.




So expert Zelin's "suggestion" is that a generous welfare system that are mainly abused by the "poor" and the "sick" and the "elderly" are also responsible for radicalising evil terrorists?

How do you hear that and not laugh?

Got to give it to those terrorists ey? They're so evil and so hell bend on destroying infidels but are so patient and law-abiding that instead of... I don't know... sell drugs or commit property crimes or break and enter or car jacking or something to get money in a hurry.. instead wait for some $300 a fortnight welfare pay and save up.

Wait... they commit crimes and cheat welfare. Got you.

-----

Out of curiosity... are all the people your colour good and kind to you? Would you trust all of them and invite them to your homes if you just met off the street?

What's with these mistrust of Muslims? Might help you against terrorists but might also make you complacent about potential bad guys with the same skin colour as you.

I've met and work with a few Muslims... some are real bastards. But then some Asians are also bastards too, so are some White folks I know. So maybe bastardry has little to do with skin colour or ethnicity... might be useful to know that.


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## Calliope (25 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> So expert Zelin's "suggestion" is that a generous welfare system that are mainly abused by the "poor" and the "sick" and the "elderly" are also responsible for radicalising evil terrorists?




Not at all. That is just you putting your usual spin on ideas you can't cope with..


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## luutzu (25 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> Not at all. That is just you putting your usual spin on ideas you can't cope with..




Didn't you quote him saying this:


Calliope said:


> But he also suggests that generous welfare in Australia and Europe may hold a clue.
> 
> “In the US, people have to work hard to get ahead,” he says. In other words, they’re too busy earning a living to waste time getting radicalised as a way of putting meaning into purposeless lives.
> 
> As the old saying goes, the devil makes work for idle hands




In other words.... generous welfare in Australia and Europe may hold a clue to there being more terrorists... in other words, welfare hold a clue to growing, enabling, funding terrorism.

I saw some documentaries about Nazi Germany... among the reasons that most German are either complacent or complicit in first putting innocent people into ghettos, then concentration camps then gas chambers was them listening and not thinking when some idiot spout on about the this and that about an entire group of people... that they're obviously this and that because of how they dress, because their nose is this shape, because their hair is that colour... That their religion teaches them this and that and how they will come out in the night and creep up to children's bed and blah blah blah...

Just suggestions you know...


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## Calliope (25 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> ... and blah blah blah...




You got that right.


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## gordon2007 (25 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> I saw some documentaries




Yes, we know, you saw a doco...on youtube.

Do you actually have any personal thoughts yourself? It appears to me you watch one youtube video, then click on the next video that is suggested based on the relevance of the one you're watching. This is a repetitive behaviour of yours. You watch video after video, regurgitate it back here via posts until your monthly gigabyte allowance is used up and then you disappear for a few days.


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## luutzu (25 November 2014)

gordon2007 said:


> Yes, we know, you saw a doco...on youtube.
> 
> Do you actually have any personal thoughts yourself? It appears to me you watch one youtube video, then click on the next video that is suggested based on the relevance of the one you're watching. This is a repetitive behaviour of yours. You watch video after video, regurgitate it back here via posts until your monthly gigabyte allowance is used up and then you disappear for a few days.




Na, those Nazi Germany doco I saw from DVDs, before such thing as YouTube... and I'm now on Optus Unlimited cable, so no monthly cap. Awesome.

I thought that watching historical documentary (or reading) teaches a person something, from such facts people learn and think and form their "personal thoughts". Or you'd rather I make up history?

When I quote experts' opinion and findings... call that regurgitation if you want, but I just think it's part of learning and being honest about where you get your facts from. So the facts I regurgitated I obvious agrees with, it makes sense to me... is it more important that facts are accurate or it's more important that it's my original thoughts? My personal opinions?


Calliope doesn't seem to trust or like the Muslims very much... Calliope thinks all Arabs are terrorists or radicals or just plain bad somehow... Calliope is on the side of Israel in its occupation of Palestine.

So Calliope would think, and this is my originality right here, would think that it is wrong that the Jewish people were murdered in their millions for no other reason than some group of people think that Jews are bad this and horrible that, that Jews ruin the country and the economy, are inferior because they don't look white or have blonde hair and blue eyes... Calliope would find it absolutely terrible that anyone would make that kind of racist, bigoted generalisation against innocent people; would find it criminal that those people then lock and murder en masse millions of innocent people just because of that idiotic generalisation...  YET

Yet he's perfectly fine himself thinking and acting the same way against another group of people - just instead of generalising against the Jews he's here generalising against the Arabs and the Muslims.

I saw a quote by George Orwell, yes on YouTube and from OzzyMan Reviews, about "double think" - the ability to hold two contradictory views at once and find them both acceptable. 


maybe I should learn from attending fancy schools and paying for special guess speakers, that's more real than some silly lecture or documentary.


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## Calliope (25 November 2014)

gordon2007 said:


> Yes, we know, you saw a doco...on youtube.
> 
> Do you actually have any personal thoughts yourself? It appears to me you watch one youtube video, then click on the next video that is suggested based on the relevance of the one you're watching. This is a repetitive behaviour of yours. You watch video after video, regurgitate it back here via posts until your monthly gigabyte allowance is used up and then you disappear for a few days.




luutzu is obviously trolling, and his comments about me are nasty, offensive and racist. And all this because I posted Miranda Divine's thoughts, not my thoughts, on why Australia holds the record for the export of more Jihadists per capita than any other Western country.:dunno:


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## luutzu (25 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> luutzu is obviously trolling, and his comments about me are nasty, offensive and racist. And all this because I posted Miranda Divine's thoughts, not my thoughts, on why Australia holds the record for the export of more Jihadists per capita than any other Western country.:dunno:




Wikipedia: *Troll*
"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

Weren't you banned from this site for a month doing just that?

From that doco, I think it was VHS then, as part of their indoctrination effort, school teachers literally show pictures of Jewish people and point out the "defects" to their students. Pointing to different features and contrast it against the Aryan super race, show how certain "Jewish" traits and features mean this and that nasty stuff.

How is that different from the rubbish you posted and links you paste about the Arabs and Muslims?

It's perfectly understandable, to a lot of people too I'd imagine, that if a person is concern or don't know or misunderstood or misinformed about another group's religion or cultural practices... and based on that misunderstanding feel upset or think badly of them... that's what discourses is for - to maybe clarify things. 

Your line of discourse seems to be posting pictures of terrorists doing nasty stuff and with a wink and a nudge saying stuff like, oh yea they're Muslims and follow Islam... I'm just saying, just suggesting.

btw, if I'm not on here for days or hours, it could be that I am either visiting existing clients' sites and offices or meeting potential ones... or just hanging out with my family... definitely not off so I could watch YouTube and then come back to talk about it - I tend to only watch YouTube and docos while doing work - multitasking and all that.


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## Calliope (26 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> Wikipedia: *Troll*
> "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."




QED.


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## luutzu (26 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> QED.




Fancy Latin. Pretty sure you're supposed to put # before QED to say you've proved it. 
Though saying you've proved it doesn't actually mean that you have indeed prove it.

Anyway


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## Calliope (26 November 2014)

luutzu said:


> .
> Though saying you've proved it doesn't actually mean that you have indeed prove it.




You're right. It was you who proved it.


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## luutzu (26 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> You're right. It was you who proved it.




That was actually quite funny.

Not true but you know, pretty funny.


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## dutchie (26 November 2014)

From Tim Blairs' blog

Tim Blair – Tuesday, November 25, 2014 (2:22am) 

"Chatting at the SCG on Sunday with a senior cricket identity who mentioned that ground organisers face a dilemma over this summer’s England-Afghanistan World Cup match. Who should get the home team dressing rooms? England has apparently never been granted that honour. Might this be the first time?

I argued in favour of Afghanistan. Of the two represented nations, it has fewer Islamic fundamentalists."



(Funny and scary at the same time)


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## noco (26 November 2014)

What is going on with ISIL?

Very little news lately....is the war over already?


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## SirRumpole (26 November 2014)

noco said:


> What is going on with ISIL?
> 
> Very little news lately....is the war over already?




The media seem to have lost interest.

Although apparently we got a few of them yesterday.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...rike-kills-100-islamic-state-fighters/5917426


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## noco (26 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> The media seem to have lost interest.
> 
> Although apparently we got a few of them yesterday.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-...rike-kills-100-islamic-state-fighters/5917426




And this one from the Australian.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...134861579?sv=c4d4bc80b0b917e9a8244ea34da27096


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## Calliope (26 November 2014)

noco said:


> What is going on with ISIL?
> 
> Very little news lately....is the war over already?




Not quite. But we are past the tipping point. It is a war we are not going to win.

THE AUSTRALIAN NOVEMBER 26, 2014 12:00AM

*Islamic State’s evil spreads*


> THE slaughter of 28 bus passengers by Islamic extremists in Kenya on Saturday showed the extent to which the depravity of Islamic State is spreading beyond the Middle East, especially in Africa. The passengers’ “sin” when confronted by al-Shabab militants from neighbouring Somalia was an inability to recite the Shahada, a basic tenet of Islam that declares there is only one true God and Mohammed is his prophet. At about the same time, Boko Haram extremists in oil-rich Nigeria, which like Kenya is a major Western ally, were executing 48 fishermen, slitting the throats of some and tying the hands and legs of others before throwing them into Lake Chad.
> 
> Al-Shabab has been fighting since 2006 to take over ramshackle Somalia as a fundamentalist Islamic nation. With links to the global Somali diaspora, the group was associated with the 2009 terrorist plot against the Holsworthy Army Barracks in Sydney. That plot was thwarted by Australian security forces through Operation Neath. Boko Haram has killed more than 15,000 civilians since it began its insurgency in Nigeria, Africa’s biggest economy, in 2009. It already controls more than two dozen towns.* Last year, al-Shabab attacked the Westgate shopping centre in Nairobi, killing 67 people and injuring 200. Al-Shabab and Boko Haram have pledged support for Islamic State’s so-called caliphate, adopting its sinister black flag as their standard. They are increasingly aping Islamic State’s atrocities in a drive to launch a full-scale religious war in the heart of Africa. Christian churches have been razed and schoolgirls kidnapped. African governments, with limited resources, are doing what they can. But they need international support.*
> 
> *Farther afield, Islamic State has pledged direct support for the Ansar Beit al-Maqdis jihadists battling Egyptian forces in Sinai, where Cairo has declared a state of emergency. In nuclear-armed Pakistan, even Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s stronghold city of Lahore has been festooned with Islamic State banners. As Pakistan’s respected newspaper Dawn has warned, “Miss the warning signs now or fail to deny it space in Pakistan and it may not be long before IS becomes the mother of all militant problems.â*


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## Macquack (26 November 2014)

noco said:


> What is going on with ISIL?
> 
> Very little news lately....is the war over already?




ISIL, ISIS, Islamic State or what ever you want to call these evil splintered groups, have adopted the *biggest weapon *against us mere infidels:- the use of "*YOUTUBE*".


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## DB008 (27 November 2014)

noco said:


> What is going on with ISIL?
> 
> Very little news lately....is the war over already?




*Iraqi warplanes kill ISIS commander of Heet and 22 of his aides*



> Al-Anbar (IraqiNews.com) On Wednesday, the president of al-Baghdadi Council Malollah al-Abidi announced, that the ISIS military leader of Heet district and 22 of his key aides have been killed in an air strike yesterday.
> 
> Al-Abidi stated for IraqiNews, “In the late hours of yesterday, Iraqi warplanes conducted an air strike against ISIS ranks, destroying 5 armored vehicles in an area located  70 km west of Ramadi. The air strike also resulted in killing the ISIS military leader of Heet, known as Sannan Moteb alongside 22 of his key aides.”
> 
> http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/iraqi-warplanes-kill-isis-commander-heet-22-aides/






*ISIS executes female parliamentary candidates in Mosul*



> ERBIL, Kurdistan Region””The Islamic State (ISIS) executed two former female candidates for the Iraqi parliament in the Faisalya area in central Mosul on Tuesday, a top Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) official in the area said.
> 
> “ISIS gunmen executed two former female candidates in Mosul after the Sharia Court issued death sentence on them,” said Saad Mamuzin the head of the KDP's Mosul branch.
> 
> ...


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## noco (27 November 2014)

Macquack said:


> ISIL, ISIS, Islamic State or what ever you want to call these evil splintered groups, have adopted the *biggest weapon *against us mere infidels:- the use of "*YOUTUBE*".




I know where I would like to stick that U-Tube followed by a litre of gasoline.


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## noco (28 November 2014)

"Twenty years from now"




THIS SHALL COME TO PASS






"20 years from now, I will be in Heaven --bye"....This was written by a woman born in Egypt as a Muslim.. Make sure you read the paragraph  (in red) towards the end.


Joys of Muslim Women
By Nonie Darwish

In the Muslim faith a Muslim man can marry a child as young as 1 year old and have sexual intimacy with this child. Consummating the marriage by 9.



The dowry is given to the family in exchange for the woman (who becomes his slave) and for the purchase of the private parts of the woman, to use her as a toy.



Even though a woman is abused she can not obtain a divorce.

To prove rape, the woman must have (4) male witnesses.



Often after a woman has been raped, she is returned to her family and the family must return the dowry. The family has the right to execute her (an honor killing) to restore the honor of the family. Husbands can beat their wives 'at will' and he does not have to say why he has beaten her.



The husband is permitted to have (4 wives) and a temporary wife for an hour (prostitute) at his discretion.



The Shariah Muslim law controls the private as well as the public life of the woman.



In the Western World ( Canada , Australia , United States and Britain ) Muslim men are starting to demand Shariah Law so the wife can not obtain a divorce and he can have full and complete control of her. It is amazing and alarming how many of our sisters and daughters attending American, Canadian,  and British Universities are now marrying Muslim men and submitting themselves and their children unsuspectingly to the Shariah law.



By passing this on, enlightened Canadian, Australians, American and British women may avoid becoming a slave under Shariah Law.



Ripping the West in Two.

Author and lecturer Nonie Darwish says the goal of radical Islamists is to impose Shariah law on the world, ripping Western law and liberty in two.



She recently authored the book, Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law. Darwish was born in Cairo and spent her childhood in Egypt and Gaza before immigrating to America in 1978, when she was eight years old. Her father died while leading covert attacks on Israel . He was a high-ranking Egyptian military officer stationed with his family in Gaza ......



When he died, he was considered a "shahid," a martyr for jihad. His posthumous status earned Nonie and her family an elevated position in Muslim society..



But Darwish developed a skeptical eye at an early age. She questioned her own Muslim culture and upbringing.. She converted to Christianity after hearing a Christian preacher on television.


In her latest book, Darwish warns about creeping shariah law - what it is, what it means, and how it is manifested in Islamic countries.



For the West, she says radical Islamists are working to impose sharia on the world. If that happens, Western civilization will be destroyed. Westerners generally assume all religions encourage a respect for the dignity of each individual.. Islamic law (Sharia) teaches that non-Muslims should be subjugated or killed in this world.



Peace and prosperity for one's children is not as important as assuring that Islamic law rules everywhere in the Middle East and eventually in the world.



While Westerners tend to think that all religions encourage some form of the golden rule, Shariah teaches two systems of ethics - one for Muslims and another for non-Muslims. Building on tribal practices of the seventh century, Shariah encourages the side of humanity that wants to take from and subjugate others..



While Westerners tend to think in terms of religious people developing a personal understanding of and relationship with God, Shariah advocates executing people who ask difficult questions that could be interpreted as criticism



It's hard to imagine, that in this day and age, Islamic scholars agree that those who criticize Islam or choose to stop being Muslim should be executed. Sadly, while talk of an Islamic reformation is common and even assumed by many in the West, such murmurings in the Middle East are silenced through intimidation.



While Westerners are accustomed to an increase in religious tolerance over time, Darwish explains how petro dollars are being used to grow an extremely intolerant form of political Islam in her native Egypt and elsewhere.



(In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters inCanada, Australia , the U.S. And Britain To elect the heads of Government by themselves! Rest assured they will do so... You can look at how they have taken over several towns in the USA .. Dearborn Mich. Is one and there are others....) ( Britain has several cities now totally controlled by Muslims)



I think everyone in Canada , Australia , the U.S. And Great Britain Should be required to read this, but with the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it on!



It is too bad that so many are disillusioned with life and Christianity to accept Muslims as peaceful.. Some may be but they have an army that is willing to shed blood in the name of Islam.. The peaceful support the warriors with their finances and own kind of patriotism to their religion.While Canada, Australia, the U.S.A. and Britain are getting rid of Christianity from all public sites and erasing God from the lives of children the Muslims are planning a great jihad on North America,Australia and Britain ..........



This is your chance to make a difference...! Pass it on to your email list or at least those you think will listen..



Some of those I'm sending it to WILL NOT!    Put your head back under the covers AND DO NOTHING! 








--


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## SirRumpole (28 November 2014)

noco said:
			
		

> Some of those I'm sending it to WILL NOT! Put your head back under the covers AND DO NOTHING!




Would you mind posting a link to the stuff you post, or is it all just your opinion ?


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## luutzu (28 November 2014)

Noco,

How exactly will the Muslims impose their Sharia law on us?

I scanned through these essays you linked and the authors seem to think Western societies are timid little bunnies just waiting to be skinned or something.

From memory, Western countries have no serious challenge to its laws or culture, no challenge to its survival for the last 500 years - when it was really just an upstart. Now? Trust me, threats to Western countries' survival won't be from the Arabs.

The only challenge to Western/Christian civilisation were only among themselves. You got the Spanish under Phillippe 2 of Spain against Elizabethan England; Napoleon vs England; Nazi Germany vs England; the godless USSR vs USA/West... Even Imperial Japan was considered a light weight during WW2 where the US considered the real threat to be Germany.

During all those, shall we call "civil wars" among the Western brothers, a major part of Mughal India became a puppet of one English company, India and eventually the entire African continent, the Middle East and most of Asia-Pacific became colonies of Western powers... even the Son of Heaven in China was no match.

As you can see, Western culture, like all other cultures, are no timid little bunnies; not then and not now when we have control of the seas, the land, the air and the space above it.

If you want a good scary story, try watching American Horror Story - the first series freaked me out.


----------



## noco (28 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Would you mind posting a link to the stuff you post, or is it all just your opinion ?




Rumpy, that was not my opinion but the writings of Nonie Darwish who is an authority on Islam....If you check that post again you will see her name as the author.

Nonie was a Muslim for 30 years and then converted to Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonie_Darwish

http://nonie-darwish.blogspot.com.au/


*Very few people in the West know what is going on inside the Muslim world and what it portends for them. The fact is that through the dominant media, such as CNN, Americans are subjected to much of the same misinformation with regard to Islam that I grew up with inside the Muslim world. The result is that Americans are in the dark attempting to formulate their strategy of how to defend themselves against the threat of terror, domestic jihad and Sharia. While Americans get ridiculed for being “Islamophobes,” the Muslim world itself is undergoing a huge and painful awakening.*


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## SirRumpole (28 November 2014)

noco said:
			
		

> Rumpy, that was not my opinion but the writings of Nonie Darwish who is an authority on Islam....If you check that post again you will see her name as the author.




Apologies, I read it too fast.


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## noco (28 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Apologies, I read it too fast.




No worries.

As a point of interest and whilst we all know Islam has been operating for 1400 years without much success, I believe the Islamic movement has developed a new strategy with their rapid infiltration of the Western World.....NB. I know Joe does not like me using the word infiltration but I do not know any other word to describe what Islam is doing.

They also have a plan to rapidly increase their birth rate when established in the Western World which is far in excess of our birth rate...It is these new arrivals which will be the worry in 20 years time after being brainwashed with Koran 5 time per day in their own schools.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 November 2014)

noco said:


> No worries.
> 
> As a point of interest and whilst we all know Islam has been operating for 1400 years without much success, I believe the Islamic movement has developed a new strategy with their rapid infiltration of the Western World.....NB. I know Joe does not like me using the word infiltration but I do not know any other word to describe what Islam is doing.
> 
> They also have a plan to rapidly increase their birth rate when established in the Western World which is far in excess of our birth rate...It is these new arrivals which will be the worry in 20 years time after being brainwashed with Koran 5 time per day in their own schools.




Another reason we should cut back on family tax benefits . If people can't afford to pay for their own children, that's their problem.


----------



## noco (28 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Another reason we should cut back on family tax benefits . If people can't afford to pay for their own children, that's their problem.





Yes you are right.....but the Muslim community know all the tricks with our welfare system and will exploit it to the limit.


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2014)

noco said:


> No worries.
> 
> As a point of interest and whilst we all know Islam has been operating for 1400 years without much success, I believe the Islamic movement has developed a new strategy with their rapid infiltration of the Western World.....NB. I know Joe does not like me using the word infiltration but I do not know any other word to describe what Islam is doing.
> 
> They also have a plan to rapidly increase their birth rate when established in the Western World which is far in excess of our birth rate...It is these new arrivals which will be the worry in 20 years time after being brainwashed with Koran 5 time per day in their own schools.




Some of them might even work hard, not be on welfare (to avoid suspicion), became rich and send their many children to private schools where the kids might fall in love and marry rich, privileged and influential infidels' kids. The Muslim parents must hold back their prejudices - they're thinking long term here - and allow this "marriage" so that one day half-Muslim, half-Arab (but all-terrorist) kids will control the world! 

We better watch out for that George Clooney and his kids.

Oh, and since most Muslims don't work hard and welfare, while luxurious, might not enable the kids to climb the social ladder... they will tell their children to marry other working-class infidel's children, have mixed kids (but deep down these kids are Muslim) and then one day, one or many more of these so call Australians may rise in the world and... and just like Obama, will rule the world!

mu ah ah ah ah...


Don't worry noco, one day some idiot kid will make fun of some of my beliefs too.


----------



## DB008 (13 December 2014)

The father is an idiot!



> *‘You let my girl fly off to die’: Jihadi Amira Karroum’s father blames Australian Government for daughter’s death*
> 
> THE grieving father of a slain jihadi woman says he believes the federal government “sacrificed” his daughter to reach terrorist recruiters.
> 
> ...


----------



## DB008 (13 December 2014)

*ISIS releases horrifying sex slave pamphlet, justifies child rape*



> The Islamic State militant group has released a guide to the capture, punishment and rape of female non-believers. It outlines how to use them as their sex slaves and also justifies child rape.
> 
> The guide appears in the form of questions and answers about how to capture and subjugate woman of other beliefs.
> 
> ...




http://rt.com/news/213615-isis-sex-slave-children/


----------



## SirRumpole (14 December 2014)

Has anyone elsse noticed how the media has dropped like a hot potato virtually all reporting of the fighting against IS, how it's going, who's winning, what the causalties are etc ?

Has the media been gagged somehow by the government ? Should this happen ?

It's not as if Australia is under direct threat. We have a right to know how our money is spent and what value we are getting from our assets.


----------



## noco (14 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Has anyone elsse noticed how the media has dropped like a hot potato virtually all reporting of the fighting against IS, how it's going, who's winning, what the causalties are etc ?
> 
> Has the media been gagged somehow by the government ? Should this happen ?
> 
> It's not as if Australia is under direct threat. We have a right to know how our money is spent and what value we are getting from our assets.




Yes Rumpy I was thinking the same thing...very little news if any.

I doubt whether the Government would have any chance of gagging the ABC, the Age, the red  rag Guardian or GET UP.......That lot don't seem to have anything to pin on Abbott or is it because Abbott received bipartisan support from Billy the kid?


----------



## CanOz (14 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Has anyone elsse noticed how the media has dropped like a hot potato virtually all reporting of the fighting against IS, how it's going, who's winning, what the causalties are etc ?
> 
> Has the media been gagged somehow by the government ? Should this happen ?
> 
> It's not as if Australia is under direct threat. We have a right to know how our money is spent and what value we are getting from our assets.




It's not just news on the Islamic State, what happened to Ebola? 

The media and specifically the news, is just entertainment. If it's not getting ratings it gets a back seat to the next big thing....


----------



## bellenuit (14 December 2014)

CanOz said:


> It's not just news on the Islamic State, what happened to Ebola?
> 
> The media and specifically the news, is just entertainment. If it's not getting ratings it gets a back seat to the next big thing....




+1. Yes, that's the reason, nothing conspiratorial.


----------



## luutzu (14 December 2014)

We'll all hear more about ISIS and other dangers and threat to survival around new budget time 

Can't really spend another $500M or so on foreign adventures without masked lunatics heading our way now can we?

In the meantime, let's find out who will take whom to the Oscars; who will wear what and if Prince William's second child is a boy or a girl and if a girl what her name will be...

Bread and circuses. The Romans knew that way back when.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 December 2014)

CanOz said:


> It's not just news on the Islamic State, what happened to Ebola?
> 
> The media and specifically the news, is just entertainment. If it's not getting ratings it gets a back seat to the next big thing....




You expect that from the commercial media, but it looks like the ABC is going the same way.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 December 2014)

> Why not "Bluddy Military!" ?
> If our Gov'mint hadn't been so eager to deploy planes and personnel to Syria, this war may never have come to Sydney. Or if it had, they could now deploy our soldiers to deal with local Jihadists much more cheaply: by public transport.




That's just giving in to the bad guys.

if IS is allowed to spread and get control of arms, oil, cities, gold etc they could form a terrorist state of unparalleled power. They have to be stopped or things like what is happening in Martin Place will get more common, not less.


----------



## Tisme (15 December 2014)

Be interesting to see if the blokes at Martin Place are Australian second gens or imports.


----------



## Wysiwyg (15 December 2014)

Vision shows a man carrying a large back pack in the cafe. Extremely serious situation.


----------



## DB008 (15 December 2014)

A police/military sniper should take him out


----------



## pixel (15 December 2014)

DB008 said:


> A police/military sniper should take him out




easily, but ... what's in his backpack? 
Would you suggest the same if your wife or parents had gone in for a hot chocolate?


----------



## Tisme (15 December 2014)

I hope it's not in connection with Mohamed Karroum's emotive action against the govt.


----------



## Calliope (15 December 2014)

Charles Sturt University counter-terrorism expert, Associate Professor Nick O’Brien


> "Once we have a situation when we have Australians being recruited and travelling to the Middle East to fight for ISIS, inevitably something is going to happen here and unfortunately it looks like it has. The world media will now be watching Sydney and what Australia does. It will be extremely worrying for everyday Australians and is likely to prompt a discussion about raising the security threat level. This will paralyse the Sydney central business district, it could go on for days, the Police will be there assessing how they can deal with the problem. The first step will be negotiation and then something harder and they’ll even be thinking of handing it over to the military.” - Professor Nick O’Brien, Head of CSU’s Australian Graduate School of Policing and Security


----------



## trainspotter (15 December 2014)

DB008 said:


> A police/military sniper should take him out




Get Craig Harrison on the job ... *bang* ... silence ... human stain. Interesting to note it is right next door to the RBA? Anyone got a conspiracy theory on this?


----------



## Value Collector (15 December 2014)

DB008 said:


> A police/military sniper should take him out




Very hard to make that call when you don't know for sure there is only one Tango in the building, also he has hostages against the windows.

They will drag on the negotiations into the night, and they will raid the building in the earlier hours of the morning if it is not settled peacefully before then, unless they have to do an emergency action because he goes nuts or the hostages fight back.


----------



## pixel (15 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Very hard to make that call when you don't know for sure there is only one Tango in the building, also he has hostages against the windows.
> 
> They will drag on the negotiations into the night, and they will raid the building in the earlier hours of the morning if it is not settled peacefully before then, unless they have to do an emergency action because he goes nuts or the hostages fight back.




+1
... and they still don't know what's in his backpack either. Can you imagine the outcry if it's the equivalent of a suicide vest that's set off when they take him out? As long as he hasn't pulled the trigger, there's hope for the hostages' lives. Let him get tired?


----------



## Value Collector (15 December 2014)

pixel said:


> ... and they still don't know what's in his backpack either.




Yes, that is a worry, the Bag could have a device that is command detonated or even a tilt switch to trigger the device when he falls over if he gets shot, or it might just hold his teddy bear, who knows.


----------



## luutzu (15 December 2014)

pixel said:


> +1
> ... and they still don't know what's in his backpack either. Can you imagine the outcry if it's the equivalent of a suicide vest that's set off when they take him out? As long as he hasn't pulled the trigger, there's hope for the hostages' lives. Let him get tired?




dam.

The bright side of this, if there is one, is at least they're isolated and we have well trained and well equipped professionals dealing with it. That and I think it's very hard to acquire arms and explosives in Australia so hopefully it will end with no innocents being harmed.


----------



## DB008 (15 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> ...and I think it's very hard to acquire arms and explosives in Australia so hopefully it will end with no innocents being harmed.




If you are a honest person.

To get weapons on the black market is relatively easy.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 December 2014)

ABC news 24 has been running this story all day.

Talk about giving this nitwit the publicity he wants.

Tell us when its over, there must be other things happening.
.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> ABC news 24 has been running this story all day.
> 
> Talk about giving this nitwit the publicity he wants.
> 
> ...




It wasn't long ago that you guys were blaming Abbott for ramping when he said this could happen


----------



## SirRumpole (15 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> It wasn't long ago that you guys were blaming Abbott for ramping when he said this could happen




My post contained no criticism of Abbott, only of the media.


----------



## Value Collector (15 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> dam.
> 
> That and I think it's very hard to acquire arms and explosives in Australia so hopefully it will end with no innocents being harmed.




Well he already has the arms (shotgun), and explosives can be made relatively easily, the hardest part about building a reliable explosive device is sourcing or making a reliable detonator, let's hope if he does have a device that the detonator is rubbish, and it fails to fire.


----------



## banco (15 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> My post contained no criticism of Abbott, only of the media.




They are a news agency and this is biggest news story in sydney for awhile. You are being rather precious...


----------



## SirRumpole (15 December 2014)

banco said:


> They are a news agency and this is biggest news story in sydney for awhile. You are being rather precious...




Bugger all has happened in this story all day

They should treat it like a rainy day at the cricket and cross back when something happens.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> My post contained no criticism of Abbott, only of the media.




I'm talking about a few months ago when Abbott mentioned the domestic threat. You guys were all over him for crapping on for political milage.
When I get home to the computer I will refresh your memory.lol


----------



## luutzu (15 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> I'm talking about a few months ago when Abbott mentioned the domestic threat. You guys were all over him for crapping on for political milage.
> When I get home to the computer I will refresh your memory.lol




Of course Abbott used the raids and ISIS threats for political gains. No one was saying the threat is fake or made-up, we don't know and we trust ASIO/AFP and security professionals to know. 

But when your people see the biggest terrorism raid in its country, as its leader it is not wise to then go on TV and say stuff like terrorism is easy, all a person need is a knife, an iphone and a victim - that's not how you calm people.


----------



## luutzu (15 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Well he already has the arms (shotgun), and explosives can be made relatively easily, the hardest part about building a reliable explosive device is sourcing or making a reliable detonator, let's hope if he does have a device that the detonator is rubbish, and it fails to fire.




Let's hope he's incompetent. The 5 victims who managed to escaped might be a good sign that he is. 

I'm just glad Australia have tough gun-control.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> Of course Abbott used the raids and ISIS threats for political gains. No one was saying the threat is fake or made-up, we don't know and we trust ASIO/AFP and security professionals to know.
> 
> But when your people see the biggest terrorism raid in its country, as its leader it is not wise to then go on TV and say stuff like terrorism is easy, all a person need is a knife, an iphone and a victim - that's not how you calm people.




It was about enacting stricter asio and federal police protocols.
Sure seemed to worry some


----------



## luutzu (15 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> It was about enacting stricter asio and federal police protocols.
> Sure seemed to worry some




Rights to privacy and presumed innocent until proven guilty aside, it worries me because metadata retention slows down my internet 

But good thing I managed to get a speed maximiser package - for free... so maybe all is well.

Jokes aside, I hope this terrorism/hostage crisis ends well.


----------



## Value Collector (16 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> They will drag on the negotiations into the night, and they will raid the building in the earlier hours of the morning.




Its over, just as I suspected, an early morning raid has ended the drama, at just after 2am this morning.


----------



## Value Collector (16 December 2014)

Damn, reports are now saying that two people have died, one is probably the gun man, and the other an innocent hostage.


----------



## sydboy007 (16 December 2014)

I'd like the media taken to task over their perpetual coverage.

You'd think Sydney had been invaded and turned into an Islamic state.  Every station had blanket coverage through the day and night.  They just kept on repeating the days events.

Why do we need to give these idiots more media coverage?  It's like we've decided to help with their PR. 

Ray Hadley and his stupid comments through the day didn't help either.  There was so much mythinformation being generated.


----------



## sydboy007 (16 December 2014)

sptrawler said:


> It was about enacting stricter asio and federal police protocols.
> Sure seemed to worry some




Exactly what protocols were they trying to enact, and how would those protocols have helped to prevent this tragedy from occurring?

ASIO and the AFP have some pretty draconian laws behind them already.  Perpetual preventative detention without trial, without even being able to hear the evidence being used to hold you.

If the reports are correct and this guy went out on his own, then there's really not much one could do to stop him.  It would be like trying to stop any murdered acting alone.  No amount of surveillance powers would help.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 December 2014)

> Iranian cleric Man Haron Monis is the man police believe is behind the siege at the Lindt Chocolat Cafe in Sydney's Martin Place.
> 
> Monis,* who was granted political asylum in Australia*, is currently on bail for a string of violent offences, including being an accessory to the murder of his ex-wife.
> 
> ...




Isn't it about time we deported some of these lunatics before they did any damage ?

And why was he given political asylum in the first place ?

Just crazy.


----------



## Hodgie (16 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Isn't it about time we deported some of these lunatics before they did any damage ?
> 
> And why was he given political asylum in the first place ?
> 
> Just crazy.




The judicial system will cop some heat after allowing this man out on bail.


----------



## Tisme (16 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> And why was he given political asylum in the first place ?




Because we have a western arrogance that runs deep in our colonial culture that we possess the keys to civility, law and order. Old occidental and oriental cultures, that have been compromised by barbarism don't have the superior skills we do.

Meanwhile we have a post pubescent attorney general in Qld who just legislated for youth to be incarcerated with the scum of adult society, name and shame them and basically marginalise them. And the excuse is that a 7% drop from applying existing laws therefore means more laws will result in a greater drop.....we can apparently legislate our way out of criminality, just like they did back in the days of convicts and Oliver Twist.... progressive or what!


----------



## noco (16 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Isn't it about time we deported some of these lunatics before they did any damage ?
> 
> And why was he given political asylum in the first place ?
> 
> Just crazy.




We can thank comrade Gillard for allowing him into the country via Indonesia with the aid of the people smugglers.

Of course it was so easy  under Gillard to get political asylum.

I said on many occasions, if their was one in a 1000 of the 50,000 Gillard and her comrades let into the country who were Islamic extremist, it would be one too many.

Now two innocent victims are dead along side the 1200 plus who lost their lives at sea.....Gillard must be very proud of herself.

Yes Rumpy, I agree, those Muslims who inherit criminal convictions should be deported...There is probably some 200 or more out there who do not deserve to be in this country of ours.


----------



## Tisme (16 December 2014)

noco said:


> We can thank comrade Gillard for allowing him into the country




John Howard actually ...how does that feel Noco?


----------



## noco (16 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> John Howard actually ...how does that feel Noco?




Sorry, you are wrong...It has been stated on different channels this morning that he entered the country 3 years ago.

Correction and my apology.....you are right...he entered into Australia in 1996.....the media obviously got it wrong.

I think Howard become Prime Minister in 1998....I will have to do some more checking as who was in Government in 1996.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-named-as-gunman/story-fnihslxi-1227157492618


----------



## Bill M (16 December 2014)

noco said:


> I think Howard become Prime Minister in 1998....I will have to do some more checking as who was in Government in 1996.




Nope you are wrong, Howard came into power in March 1996. I wouldn't blame him or Keating directly for letting this person in.

---
John Winston Howard, OM, AC, (born 26 July 1939) was the 25th Prime Minister of Australia, from 11 March 1996 to 3 December 2007. He is the second-longest serving Australian Prime Minister

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Howard
---


----------



## noco (16 December 2014)

Bill M said:


> Nope you are wrong, Howard came into power in March 1996. I wouldn't blame him or Keating directly for letting this person in.
> 
> ---
> John Winston Howard, OM, AC, (born 26 July 1939) was the 25th Prime Minister of Australia, from 11 March 1996 to 3 December 2007. He is the second-longest serving Australian Prime Minister
> ...





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Australia


----------



## pixel (16 December 2014)

noco said:


> We can thank comrade Gillard for allowing him into the country via Indonesia with the aid of the people smugglers.
> 
> Of course it was so easy  under Gillard to get political asylum.
> 
> ...




Why not start a few years sooner. Remember the "Coalition of the Willing"? Willing to bomb the crap out of an  entire country just to depose one man? And all on the back of a WMD lie...

PS: I see some others picked up on it too.


----------



## trainspotter (16 December 2014)

Who cares when he entered the country under what dictatorship (read prime ministership) SERIOUSLY ??? He was out on bail as an accessory to murder where he and his partner stabbed his ex wife then burned her body (according to the media frenzy) 



> Man Haron Monis, a self-styled sheikh shot dead by police in the early hours of Tuesday morning, was before the courts on two separate and serious matters: more than 40 sexual assault charges involving seven alleged victims; and as an accessory to the murder of his former wife.




http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-si...-and-accessory-to-murder-20141215-127u1e.html

pixel you might want to read this:-



> The Invasion of Kuwait, also known as the Iraq–Kuwait War, was a major conflict between the Ba'athist Iraq and the State of Kuwait, which resulted in the seven-month long Iraqi occupation of Kuwait, and subsequently led to direct military intervention by U.S.-led forces in the Gulf War, and the setting alight by Iraq of 600 Kuwaiti oil wells.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait


----------



## pixel (16 December 2014)

trainspotter said:


> pixel you might want to read this:-
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait




No need to, TS;
I was caught in the middle of it: I happened to be in Amman at the time.
That would've been the time to deal with Hussein for good; GB Senior bungled the "Desert Storm" badly.
But to wait 12 years and then try to finish the job was plain lunacy.
History repeats itself because nobody ever learns from history. If GWB had failed to notice, John Winston Howard should've been aware of how NOT to deal with a dictator. Sudetenland and Chamberlain's "Peace for our Time" happened a year before he was born. Only one year's delay ended in six years of misery and carnage....


----------



## trainspotter (16 December 2014)

pixel said:


> No need to, TS;
> I was caught in the middle of it: I happened to be in Amman at the time.
> That would've been the time to deal with Hussein for good; GB Senior bungled the "Desert Storm" badly.
> But to wait 12 years and then try to finish the job was plain lunacy.
> History repeats itself because nobody ever learns from history. If GWB had failed to notice, John Winston Howard should've been aware of how NOT to deal with a dictator. Sudetenland and Chamberlain's "Peace for our Time" happened a year before he was born. Only one year's delay ended in six years of misery and carnage....





I think GB Senior was feeling the global pressure NOT to topple Saddam at the time. From memory it was Saudia Arabia who threatened oil sanctions against the U.S. ?? Or was it Iran and they were worried at the time they had nuclear capabilities?


----------



## Calliope (16 December 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Who cares when he entered the country under what dictatorship (read prime ministership) SERIOUSLY ??? He was out on bail as an accessory to murder where he and his partner stabbed his ex wife then burned her body (according to the media frenzy)




You are right. It is not relevant how he came to be here and why.The facts are, Muslim jihadist crazies are already here and in  large numbers.

These scenes of bearded, black flag waving thugs is ample evidence of that. I imagine the police would have photographic evidence of each participator. Each one has the potential and craziness to repeat what happened yesterday.


----------



## sails (16 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> You are right. It is not relevant how he came to be here and why.The facts are, Muslim jihadist crazies are already here and in  large numbers.
> 
> These scenes of bearded, black flag waving thugs is ample evidence of that. I imagine the police would have photographic evidence of each participator. Each one has the potential and craziness to repeat what happened yesterday.





Isn't this the same man as shown on the cover of that video and about halfway through the video?  The picture below is the gunman as per the link below and we are told he was a "lone wolf".  Seemed very much part of it all if it is him.






http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...elegraph/comments/sydney_siege_police_charge/


----------



## Tisme (16 December 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Who cares when he entered the country under what dictatorship (read prime ministership) SERIOUSLY ??? He was out on bail as an accessory to murder where he and his partner stabbed his ex wife then burned her body (according to the media frenzy)




yes I was going to reply that the people who let him stay are the ones that are culpable.

Good call Trainspotter


----------



## trainspotter (16 December 2014)

sails said:


> Isn't this the same man as shown on the cover of that video and about halfway through the video?  The picture below is the gunman as per the link below and we are told he was a "lone wolf".  Seemed very much part of it all if it is him.




Yes it is sails !! My concern is now the media will pontificate over this "radical" event which basically is not much to do about Islam and the hegemony of the Western civilisation but more of a one off event of a very marginalised man under the guise of the black flag. 

And the hand wringing has begun:-



> IRAN says it discussed the mental state of Sydney gunman Man Haron Monis with Australian officials several times before this week's deadly cafe siege.
> THE 50-year-old Iranian refugee and two of his hostages died at the end of a 16-hour siege in a cafe in Sydney's CBD before dawn on Tuesday.
> *Iranian foreign ministry spokeswoman Marziyeh Afkham said Iranian and Australian authorities were well aware of the man's condition.*
> "The psychological conditions of the person who took refuge in Australia two decades ago had been discussed several times with the Australian officials," she said.
> "The situation of the hostage taker had been completely clear to the Australian related officials."




http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...ut-sydney-gunman/story-e6frfku9-1227158513006


----------



## Calliope (16 December 2014)

sails said:


> Isn't this the same man as shown on the cover of that video and about halfway through the video?  The picture below is the gunman as per the link below and we are told he was a "lone wolf".  Seemed very much part of it all if it is him.
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...elegraph/comments/sydney_siege_police_charge/




The police and ASIO attempt to cover up their failure to monitor this guy by dismissing him as a "lone wolf nutter". But surely these are the most dangerous. The video shows hundreds of them, and they all know that they can achieve martyrdom and enter paradise by killing infidels. They are all "nutters'". The Muslim community say "oh he is not one of us he was crazy".

Our protective services are powerlees to prevent further murderous attacks by "nutters", unless they lift their game and get tough.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> The police and ASIO attempt to cover up their failure to monitor this guy by dismissing him as a "lone wolf nutter". But surely these are the most dangerous. The video shows hundreds of them, and they all know that they can achieve martyrdom and enter paradise by killing infidels. They are all "nutters'". The Muslim community say "oh he is not one of us he was crazy".
> 
> Our protective services are powerlees to prevent further murderous attacks by "nutters", unless they lift their game and get tough.




It would seem the German population are getting nervous about the passive takeover.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/patriot...ering-support-in-germany-20141216-128105.html


----------



## IFocus (16 December 2014)

How would the new laws jailing Jurno's have stopped this from happening the guy wasn't even on a watch list


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2014)

IFocus said:


> How would the new laws jailing Jurno's have stopped this from happening the guy wasn't even on a watch list




Was he a jurno? I heard Abbott ask why he wasn't on the watch list.


----------



## basilio (16 December 2014)

We have a host of new laws to protect us from terrorists. And then seemingly from nowhere a "lone wolf" jumps out with a bizarre and tragic outcome.

Not quite.  Apparently Man Haron Monis was a well known crackpot in the Iranian community. In fact he was considered so delusional and dangerous that the President of the Iranian community contacted the Federal Police directly with his concerns.

So the question is "How effective is our security system in actually checking people out ?"



> "The guy was a total outcast," said Australian Iranian man Yavar Tayebi. "No one in our community, none of the Iranian Shiites, wanted a bar of him."
> 
> "You take one look and think, he is an idiot," said Sheik Mousselmani, President of the Supreme Islamic Shia Council of Australia, who warned Federal Police about Monis in 2008. "Nothing about him added up."




http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nsw...ed-deluded-and-dangerous-20141216-128j42.html


----------



## dutchie (17 December 2014)

Ironic ..but sad

Channel 7 news reported that the terrorist (my definition) had been on the disability pension for 10 years.

They then went to a promo for their "Cash Cow.."

Channel 7 is a little cash cow the real cash cow is Australia. No wonder illegals want to come to Australia - cash for nothing for the rest of your life.


----------



## dutchie (17 December 2014)

The two victims are Australian heroes. They sacrificed their lives to save others.


----------



## Tisme (17 December 2014)

I wonder how the public will react when the "Muslim Community" gives our murdering mate a send off to paradise? 

I also wonder if our secular authorities will ritually wash and release his body to relative in a rush to meet the sectarian wishes of his religious leaders.

Just thinking about how we seem too scared to insult a minority, but make the majority wear a greater insult these days.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> I wonder how the public will react when the "Muslim Community" gives our murdering mate a send off to paradise?
> 
> I also wonder if our secular authorities will ritually wash and release his body to relative in a rush to meet the sectarian wishes of his religious leaders.
> 
> Just thinking about how we seem too scared to insult a minority, but make the majority wear a greater insult these days.




Just part of being an inclusive, tolerant and multi-cultural society


I don't think being outspoken about the surge in the Muslim population is going to achieve anything much except increase division in the community.

What we need is for the people in government to slow down the immigration rate, be more selective about where we get the immigrants that we do take, and cut down on welfare benefits which are an attraction for people from certain parts of the world.

Our 'murdering mate' was apparently on a disability pension for 10 years. How many more like him ?

The above adjustments to improve security can be done quietly and without attracting much outrage from the minority. Much better than generating more division.


----------



## Calliope (17 December 2014)

SLIPPED THROUGH THE CRACKS???These are not cracks...it is an open door with a welcome mat.

Govt admits gunman slipped through cracks. His girlfriend Droudis, who has been charged with the murder of Nonis' ex-wife has also slipped betwewn the cracks so far and is as free as the breeze. Surely her bail can be revoked with the knowledge that her accessory was just a murderous thug. How much has *her* legal aid cost us so far? Apparently if you are a Muslim on welfare you can get unlimited legal aid.



> After fleeing Iran, Monis settled in western Sydney and married Noleen Hayson Pal. It is believed the pair had two children. At some point he started calling himself Sheik Haron, although it is believed he had no religious training and Shia religious leaders publicly called on him to stop using the title.
> 
> ...*It is not known when Droudis came into Monis’s life, but we do know how Pal, his wife, left it — she was killed. In April 21 last year, firefighters were called to a fire in an apartment block in Werrington and found her dead in a stairwell. She had been stabbed numerous times.*
> 
> ...




http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...tent-to-murderer/story-fnqxbywy-1227158732612


----------



## Tisme (17 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> is going to achieve anything much except increase division in the community.
> 
> What we need is for the people in government to slow down the immigration rate, be more selective about where we get the immigrants that we do take ..




The primary problem with being selective is who is determining what our nation wants? The public service who make these evaluations is well stocked with first gen migrants, we are supposedly a multicultural society so no dominant ethos, we have remnants of the old Oz guard channelling Arthur Calwellian times, we have a high majority catholic parliament, ....

just what is it that we Australians want and do we really want to become the monolithic Anglican colony, intolerant of anyone born outside Australia we once were?

It's not so long ago we gave the Poms billyoh for not assimilating and going on incessantly about "back home", we gave the greeks a hard time, the Italians, the Yugoslavs etc, but they had one thing in common ... they were hard workers, embraced the wider community, became patriots and didn't complain.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> It's not so long ago we gave the Poms billyoh for not assimilating and going on incessantly about "back home", we gave the greeks a hard time, the Italians, the Yugoslavs etc, but they had one thing in common ... they were hard workers, embraced the wider community, became patriots and didn't complain.




Indeed yes, but I think you will find that the groups you specified in general don't have a medieval ideology that stuffs their brains and interferes with their hard working and patriotic characteristics.


----------



## trainspotter (17 December 2014)

And the hand wringing has gone all the way to the top:-



> TONY Abbott has declared *he wants to know why *Sydney hostage-taker Man Haron Monis, who he describes as a “madman”, wasn’t being monitored.
> After visiting Sydney for briefings and to lay a floral tribute, the Prime Minister this morning admitted the “system did not adequately deal with this individual.”
> Mr Abbott said it was a “very good question” why Monis was allowed on the street, having had a serious criminal past as well as being on bail at the time.




http://www.news.com.au/national/ton...-wasnt-monitored/story-fncynjr2-1227158943800


----------



## FxTrader (17 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Indeed yes, but I think you will find that the groups you specified in general don't have a medieval ideology that stuffs their brains and interferes with their hard working and patriotic characteristics.



Just to be clear, the "ideology" in question is Islamic religious beliefs and claims.  Using the term medieval to describe the actions and beliefs of Islamic savages is a misnomer intending yet again be an apologist for religious tradition.  

Now that the Taliban have slaughtered hundreds of children in Pakistan perhaps you should consider abandoning your totally bankrupt view that religion is basically good and useful but the believers themselves are evil or mentally ill and just misinterpreting the faith or using it as an excuse to act like savages.  

The majority of these duped morons sincerely BELIEVE they will inherit heaven by their actions and are quite sanctimonious in declaring so.  It's time for civilized society to comprehend the true nature of the threat that fundamentalist religion poses to our way of life and stop pretending that religion is basically good for us (if not for the many millions who want to impose theocracy on the rest.)


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2014)

FxTrader said:


> Just to be clear, the "ideology" in question is Islamic religious beliefs and claims.  Using the term medieval to describe the actions and beliefs of Islamic savages is a misnomer intending yet again be an apologist for religious tradition.




Your problem is that you think religions are all the same. Anyone who thinks like the Taliban does are mentally ill, I don't believe that people who go to church on Sunday and volunteer to help those less fortunate than themselves pose any danger to society.


So just shove your "one size fits all" mentality and be prepared to use a bit of rational thinking instead of a continuous diatribe against all religion and all religious people.  That sort of thinking is irrational and stupid.


----------



## pavilion103 (17 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Your problem is that you think religions are all the same. Anyone who thinks like the Taliban does are mentally ill, I don't believe that people who go to church on Sunday and volunteer to help those less fortunate than themselves pose any danger to society.  So just shove your "one size fits all" mentality and be prepared to use a bit of rational thinking instead of a continuous diatribe against all religion and all religious people.  That sort of thinking is irrational and stupid.




It's his standard straw man argument.


----------



## Value Collector (17 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't believe that people who go to church on Sunday and volunteer to help those less fortunate than themselves pose any danger to society.
> 
> 
> .




No, you only seem to have a problem with those that attend mosques, you seem fine with churches. :

Look, the reality of the situation is, taking any religion on faith can lead to bad things happening. Muslim styled extremism is just one factor, plenty of Charitable Christians have been lead into doing ugly things by their faith also, a short conversation with some of those church goers here will prove that.


----------



## FxTrader (17 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Your problem is that you think religions are all the same.



No, I have never asserted this and something you have concocted out of thin air to deliberately misrepresent my statements here, a totally baseless and self-serving claim.  Rather I have clearly stated on more than one occasion that some forms of religious mythology are more overtly dangerous to society than others.  This thread is specifically discussing the Islamic tradition, the fundamentalist version of which is the most virulent and poisonous form of religious mythology yet invented.



> Anyone who thinks like the Taliban does are mentally ill, I don't believe that people who go to church on Sunday and volunteer to help those less fortunate than themselves pose any danger to society.



It suits your apologetic mental framework to assert that all Taliban are mentally ill but it's quite obviously a false proposition.  They are primarily brainwashed religious drones who are motivated by religious fervour to carry out acts of incredible violence while believing they are doing something worth dying for.  You seem incapable of comprehending this and you are not alone.

As for good Samaritans doing good things for others in the name of a religion, it's quite ridiculous to suggest that I have ever implied they are a "danger to society".  Fundamentalist religion however is quite harmful to society, the evidence for which is pervasive.



> So just shove your "one size fits all" mentality and be prepared to use a bit of rational thinking instead of a continuous diatribe against all religion and all religious people.  That sort of thinking is irrational and stupid.



Yet another ridiculous straw man argument and beat-up intended to discredit a misrepresentation of what I have said here to make a useless point and self-inflate your ego.  You deliberately ignore and misrepresent what I have said here to grandstand, that's not just irrational it's dishonest and you know it.  If you can't debate this topic with honesty and a modicum of integrity then why not bow out instead of making foolish, emotive statements and petty insults.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2014)

> Rather I have clearly stated on more than one occasion that some forms of religious mythology are more overtly dangerous to society than others. This thread is specifically discussing the Islamic tradition, the fundamentalist version of which is the most virulent and poisonous form of religious mythology yet invented.




I agree with that statement, however if you go to the Old Testament you will find passages just as violent and coercive as the Koran. 

Generally the Christian religion has come out of the Middle Ages and adapted to the modern day. I would argue that Islam has gone backwards. Islam used to be a culture, with great works of art and respect for other religions and races which the Crusaders did their best to destroy by imposing their will on the "heathens".

Now we have networks of Islamic terrorists actively working to destroy the West. Some may argue whether the true motivation is religion or just power and greed.

 I have always said that the prime motivation of Islamists is tribalism, the same way that criminal gangs are tribal. You either belong to my gang or you are the enemy. This is demonstrated in the hatred by Shi'ites for Sunnis and vice versa. The same motivation occured in Nazism and in the religious right mentality of George W. Bush "you are either for us or against us". Religion has something to do with it, but it's their teddy bear that the Islamists  hang onto. Hitler's teddy bear was hatred for the Jews, and Aryan supremacy.

Hitler had to be defeated by a global alliance. So will Islamic terrorism. IS are a threat to other Islamic countries just as they are to the West. Just because IS are Muslims doesn't mean they whole Islamic world is on their side. If people believe that Hitler was a Christian, what religions were the countries that defeated him ?


----------



## Value Collector (17 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> IS are a threat to other Islamic countries just as they are to the West. Just because IS are Muslims doesn't mean they whole Islamic world is on their side. If people believe that Hitler was a Christian, what religions were the countries that defeated him ?




No one is saying the whole Muslim world agrees with their terrorist acts, but most Muslims would agree with a lot of the things that have lead To the I.S's fundamental views.

Eg, that the Qur'an is the infallible word of a god, 

If you are going to have a billion people believing the Qur'an is the word of a god, a certain percentage will take every word literally, the fact the a majority don't hold the extreme views of the minority, in no way means the moderate views are innocent, the moderate majority support the concepts that lead to the extremism.

And the moderates can not do a thing to stop extremism, because any debate between moderates and extremists would start with the basis that their texts are 100% true and faith is a pathway to truth.


----------



## basilio (17 December 2014)

So this is clearly a very complex discussion with a number of layers.

I suggest that the  growth of Islamic fundamentalism and associated terrorism activity is a response to how Middle Eastern countries have been treated/used/abused by the West. Short story as I have seen it.

In the 19th Century there was still the remains of the Ottoman empire. This stretched from Turkey to Central Europe and into the Middle East. Check out wikipedia for a excellent discussion on how the Ottoman empire was  systematically dismembered over the years.

World War 1 saw the effective end of the Ottoman empire with the British, French. Italian and US governments effectively taking control of the old empire. This was centered around colonialism, control of the Suez Canal and most importantly control of Middle Easter oil reserves.

Between WW1 and WW2 the British controlled Palestine, Iraq, Egypt and strategic areas around Seuz Canal. At this stage there was also a strong push by Jews to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine. 

After WW2 the push for a Jewish state become politically irresistible.  Israel was established in 1948 and represented a challenge to the then resident Palestinian population. The Jews made it clear this was now their home and effectively drove out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. These are the refugees now in Gaza, West Bank Lebanon etc

Since 1948 Israel has steadily expanded its borders through a series of successful wars. After each war it has effectively annexed conquered land and settled its citizens.  To achieve this outcome the original residents have lost their homes and property.  This has always happened with the political support of the US.  So for 60 years Arabs (Muslims) have seen their homes and lives systematically taken by Israel with the support of the US.

*They clearly were not happy with this this..*

In 1953 the US and UK governments engineered the coup that overthrew the democratically elected Iran Government and installed the Shah of Iran. In one move the British and US governments retained effective control of the huge oil reserves and had "their own man" in power. 

I could  go on about Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc but the main point is that the West had taken control of the Middle East and over time more and more Muslims came to the view that if they wanted control over their own country they would have to fight for it.

In 2014 I suggest that fighting to have control over their own country has morphed for some groups into a pathological hatred for all things Western. It's worth checking out the references to get an idea of what has happened  to these countries  that has radicalized many people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_evolution_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th-century_history_of_Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/19/cia-admits-role-1953-iranian-coup
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php


----------



## Tisme (17 December 2014)

The trouble with the arguments in this thread today is they are so loaded down with caveats there isn't much desire to read them. There also appears to be a deliberate contrary attitude prevailing, almost like a hate vibe.

Once again I find myself coming to the aid of my long time QANDA compatriot and let it be known that SirR is a confessed theist and has never promoted organised religion, but the contrary. 

There can be no denying that individuals are responsible for their actions (our laws are predicated on that), more dangerously if they flock, which is a pretty sensible empirical observation IMO ....although that could be skewed if News Corp figured in the equation.

The Peloponnesian War was an early nasty conflict based on wealth, resentment, power, tribalism and empire building ... it seems to have shifted shores frequently, but it still wages.


----------



## Calliope (17 December 2014)

basilio said:


> I suggest that the  growth of Islamic fundamentalism and associated terrorism activity is a response to how Middle Eastern countries have been treated/used/abused by the West



.
Thanks for the history lesson. Now of course the boot is on the other foot. Welfare countries like Europe and Australia, for decades now, have been the subject of an insidious invasion of Islamists like flies to a honeypot. Having found the conditions to their liking, they are breeding like flies. It's only a matter of a few decades before they will supplant us.

It is inevitable. Your worries about Israel will soon be resolved...they can't continue to exist in a cesspool of hatred. If the Iranian bomb doesn't take them out, then the ever expanding Islamist Caliphate will.


----------



## noco (17 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Just part of being an inclusive, tolerant and multi-cultural society
> 
> 
> I don't think being outspoken about the surge in the Muslim population is going to achieve anything much *except increase division in the community.
> ...




Division in the community is exactly what Gillard set out to do by opening the flood gates to the people smugglers.


----------



## basilio (17 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> .
> Thanks for the history lesson. Now of course the boot is on the other foot. Welfare countries like Europe and Australia, for decades now, have been the subject of an insidious invasion of Islamists like flies to a honeypot. Having found the conditions to their liking, they are breeding like flies. It's only a matter of a few decades before they will supplant us.
> 
> It is inevitable. Your worries about Israel will soon be resolved...they can't continue to exist in a cesspool of hatred. If the Iranian bomb doesn't take them out, then the ever expanding Islamist Caliphate will.




Glad you liked the history lesson.  I assume you avidly read all the references....and maybe learnt something ?

Congratulations also on your comment.  You certainly have taken out the prize for packing in the most vitriolic comments in the least possible words.  Der Fueher would be proud of you..


----------



## trainspotter (17 December 2014)

Meanwhile back at the ranch 141 students/teachers were massacred in Pakistan by the Taliban and it does not rate a mention on here?

http://www.news.com.au/world/taliba...n-revenge-attack/story-fndir2ev-1227158815682



> Shahrukh Khan, 16, said he and his classmates ducked below their desks when four gunmen burst into their room.
> “I saw a pair of big black boots coming towards me. This guy was probably hunting for students hiding beneath the benches,” Khan told AFP from the trauma ward of the city’s Lady Reading Hospital.
> Khan decided to play dead after being shot in both legs, stuffing his tie into his mouth to stifle his screams.
> “The man with big boots kept on looking for students and pumping bullets into their bodies. I lay as still as I could and closed my eyes, waiting to get shot again,” he said.




Yep ... killing in the name of ....


----------



## SirRumpole (17 December 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Meanwhile back at the ranch 141 students/teachers were massacred in Pakistan by the Taliban and it does not rate a mention on here?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/taliba...n-revenge-attack/story-fndir2ev-1227158815682
> 
> ...




 I heard a Taliban spokesman say that the attack was in reprisal for attacks on Taliban strongholds.

Whatever the reason, it was disgusting.


----------



## Calliope (17 December 2014)

basilio said:


> Glad you liked the history lesson.  I assume you avidly read all the references....and maybe learnt something ?
> 
> Congratulations also on your comment.  You certainly have taken out the prize for packing in the most vitriolic comments in the least possible words.  Der Fueher would be proud of you..




Sorry Bas. Actually I only read it as far as the second paragraph when I could see what direction you were heading in. I'm afraid your little bit of "Der Fuhrer" vitriol does not work. Hitler cosied up to the Islamists as fellow Jew haters. So you see that most likely Der Fuhrer would be proud of you.



> Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab World refers to political and military links between Germany and Arab nationalists during the era of Nazi Germany (1933–1945). The relationship between the Nazi movement and leadership and the Arab world encompassed contempt, propaganda, collaboration and in some instances emulation. Cooperative relationships were founded on shared hostilities toward common enemies, such as British and French imperialism, colonialism, and Zionism.



 Wikipaedia


----------



## Macquack (17 December 2014)

noco said:


> Division in the community is exactly what Gillard set out to do by opening the flood gates to the people smugglers.




Noco, you get away with the most outrageous, unfounded and illogical statements I have ever read.

You should be a "shock jock", if you are not one already?

How do you propose that Julia Gillard's plan would protect her own overly generous pension and gold card, being an infidel, an atheist and a woman as well???


----------



## basilio (17 December 2014)

It doesn't take much for you to miss the point does it Calliope? 

My "Der Fuehrer" reference  to your comment was *with regard to the formidable capacity of the German propaganda machine *not their political bent.

And by the way exactly where did you get the idea I was a Jew hater ? I can't recall doing anything except stating a clearly factual account of how the Israeli state was born and the steady expansion of Israel over the last 60 years at the cost of the Arab neighbors they occupy. And that was in the context of offering part of an explanation for why most Muslims would be xissed off with The West and Israel

Don't verbal me thank you.  Not nice at all....:frown:


----------



## dutchie (17 December 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Meanwhile back at the ranch 141 students/teachers were massacred in Pakistan by the Taliban and it does not rate a mention on here?




See the *Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?*  thread.


----------



## basilio (17 December 2014)

On a far more positive note I think the widespread adoption of people of the "I'll walk with you" hashtag to support the Muslim community is incredibly human.

The siege and deaths at Martin place are horrific.  But allowing our society , as a consequence of the actions of one crazy person, to treat all Muslims as dangerous or evil is infinitely far more destructive of our souls and our psyche. Malcolm Turnball has made the point very clearly. The support offered through the  "I'll walk with you" tag backs this up.



> *Sydney siege aftermath: #illridewithyou shows the healing power of the hashtag*
> 
> Date
> December 17, 2014 - 6:00PM
> ...




http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nsw...ing-power-of-the-hashtag-20141217-1294i2.html



> *A determined love': Malcolm Turnbull calls for Australians to stay united following Martin Place tragedy*
> 
> Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has made an impassioned plea for Australians not to be "corrupted by hatred" following the Lindt cafe siege.
> 
> An emotional Mr Turnbull was speaking after a memorial service held at Sydney's St Mary's Cathedral on Tuesday afternoon to pay tribute to the siege victims.



http://www.canberratimes.com.au/fed...ing-martin-place-tragedy-20141216-128fhn.html


----------



## trainspotter (17 December 2014)

basilio said:


> On a far more positive note I think the widespread adoption of people of the "I'll walk with you" hashtag to support the Muslim community is incredibly human.
> 
> The siege and deaths at Martin place are horrific.  But allowing our society , as a consequence of the actions of one crazy person, to treat all Muslims as dangerous or evil is infinitely far more destructive of our souls and our psyche. Malcolm Turnball has made the point very clearly. The support offered through the  "I'll walk with you" tag backs this up.
> 
> ...




Healing has begun ... 



> "It is hard to feel hope when you feel helpless. #illridewithyou is a small act, *but might be important for someone one day*," Ms Kum told Fairfax Media.




http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/martin-place-siege-illridewithyou-hashtag-goes-viral-20141216-127rm1.html


----------



## noco (17 December 2014)

Macquack said:


> Noco, you get away with the most outrageous, unfounded and illogical statements I have ever read.
> 
> You should be a "shock jock", if you are not one already?
> 
> How do you propose that Julia Gillard's plan would protect her own overly generous pension and gold card, being an infidel, an atheist and a woman as well???




Most outrageous?????......unfounded?????......illogical statement??????

Macquack, I will post this link for the 4th time ...please read it in full.

I don't know where you were on the other 3 posts...maybe you were smoking something unusual at the time.

http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/


*They have opened the doors to illegal invaders who are bringing in a religion that goes totally against our way of life. They are using Islam to create divisions in our society and turn citizen against citizen. At the same time, they have neglected our own needy; our aged and veterans, the  very citizens who have contributed so much to our country and who should now be enjoying the fruits of their labour. Instead, they are living on the brink of poverty.*


----------



## Calliope (17 December 2014)

basilio said:


> On a far more positive note I think the widespread adoption of people of the "I'll walk with you" hashtag to support the Muslim community is incredibly human.




Also incredible feel-good nonsense. The incredible thing has been that there has been no backlash against the Muslim community, in spite of extreme provocation.


----------



## basilio (17 December 2014)

> \ Quote Originally Posted by basilio View Post
> 
> 
> > On a far more positive note I think the widespread adoption of people of the "I'll walk with you" hashtag to support the Muslim community is incredibly human.
> ...




Well Calliope you clearly need *to get right out there* and make sure all good true Aussies understand* just how vile and dangerous  *those psychopathic Muslims are.  Perhaps they should all be tattooed and have an injected tracing chip  so that we can be absolutely sure exactly WHO they are and WHERE they are ?

Perhaps they should be moved into special areas (for their own protection of course ..) . Alice Springs maybe ?  Back of Bourke perhaps.

Your mates at Restore Australia would no doubt help you start up an appropriate petition. Perhaps Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones as well?

 ________________________________________________________________

Honestly Calliope when I read your drivel I'm reminded of the infamous quote 
"Kill them all and let God sort them out"

http://www.thisdayinquotes.com/2011/07/kill-them-all-and-let-god-sort-them-out.html


----------



## Calliope (18 December 2014)

basilio said:


> Well Calliope you clearly need *to get right out there* and make sure all good true Aussies understand* just how vile and dangerous  *those psychopathic Muslims are.  Perhaps they should all be tattooed and have an injected tracing chip  so that we can be absolutely sure exactly WHO they are and WHERE they are ?
> 
> Perhaps they should be moved into special areas (for their own protection of course ..) . Alice Springs maybe ?  Back of Bourke perhaps.
> 
> ...




Well, what bought that hissy-fit on? I suppose it is your disappointment that there has been no backlash against the Muslim community.

Actually I am immune to your provocatory language, Bas.


----------



## Tisme (18 December 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Meanwhile back at the ranch 141 students/teachers were massacred in Pakistan by the Taliban and it does not rate a mention on here?
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/taliba...n-revenge-attack/story-fndir2ev-1227158815682
> 
> ...




Often wonder is events like Passover were a common place method of warfare, blaming the hand of God for the evil men do to women's children.


----------



## basilio (18 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> Well, what bought that hissy-fit on? I suppose it is your disappointment that there has been no backlash against the Muslim community.
> 
> Actually I am immune to your provocatory language, Bas.




*Excellent Calliope !! *I am so delighted that you can smile and realise I was just being satirical.

In this great land of ours there is absolutely no way anyone, especially true patriots lRestore Australia and One Nation would dream of suggesting such UnAustralian actions.

I'm certain you and Noco would be in the frontline, arm in arm,  protesting furiously.


----------



## Tisme (18 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> . The incredible thing has been that there has been no backlash against the Muslim community, in spite of extreme provocation.




That in itself is a worry....too quiet


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> That in itself is a worry....too quiet




I'm starting to have grave doubts about the willingness and ability of the media to cover issues that are considered to controversial by the political hierarchy.

The war against IS and Ebola have disappeared from the news broadcasts, Joe Hockey's giant backdown on tax avoidance went generally un-reported, the asylum seeker issue gets little coverage any more, so I think there is reason to believe that our media is no longer independent and investigative, but compliant, self serving and indolent.

Or is it just the silly season and no one gives a stuff because all the journos are on holiday ?


----------



## pixel (18 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> That in itself is a worry....too quiet




... or it shows that Australians, in the main, are intelligent enough to see through extremist rhetoric and scaremongering. Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

*#illridewithyou: Queensland MP George Christensen criticises 'pathetic' social media campaign after Sydney siege*

Is this guy a pill or what ?

Fact is Muslims have been attacked on public transport, public concern for them reduces a sense of isolation which is a provoker of retaliation.

We can both protect peaceful Muslims and attack radical militants at the same time, it's not a one or the other situation.



> North Queensland MP George Christensen has stood by his comments on social media that the "pathetic left-wing" #illridewithyou campaign portrays Australians as racists who will attack Muslims.
> 
> The hashtag, which began trending worldwide on Twitter on Monday, was created to counter a potential anti-Muslim backlash over the Sydney siege.
> 
> ...


----------



## basilio (18 December 2014)

pixel said:


> ... or it shows that Australians, in the main, are intelligent enough to see through extremist rhetoric and scaremongering. Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?




Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?

Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?

Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?

Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?

Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?

Which ever way you look at it it doesn't make sense.  But whoever said that people make sense ?


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> That in itself is a worry....too quiet






pixel said:


> ... or it shows that Australians, in the main, are intelligent enough to see through extremist rhetoric and scaremongering. Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?




Penn Jillette, said it best, and it goes along with what I have been saying on the various religion forums here.



> The enemy is not Muslims, Muslims are people.
> The enemy is not people, People are good.
> The enemy is not Islam, The enemy is not god, there is no god.
> 
> The enemy is faith, Love and respect all people, hate and destroy all faith.




to me it's peoples ability to abandon critical thinking in favour of blind faith that leads to terrible things, if they had more doubt in their mind, I don't think they would be confident enough to do the terrible things.

Doubt, scepticism and critical thinking are vitally important, and the faithful throw those things away.


----------



## Calliope (18 December 2014)

basilio said:


> Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?




No rational Australian would of course....not even if the atrocity was committed in the name of Allah... which it was. We are a very tolerant people.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Value Collector said:
			
		

> The enemy is faith, Love and respect all people, hate and destroy all faith.




What atrocious cr@p.

Advocating hatred of anything, including other peoples faith, sincerely held and innocuously followed is contemptuous of peoples rights to hold what views they so desire if they don't interfere with the rights of others to do the same.

Promoting such garbage violates your often expressed support for freedom of religion and shows you in a somewhat hypocritical light.

Penn Gillette should stick to magic, he's obviously no philosopher.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Advocating hatred of anything, including other peoples faith, sincerely held and innocuously followed is contemptuous of peoples rights to hold what views they so desire if they don't interfere with the rights of others to do the same.
> 
> Promoting such garbage violates your often expressed support for freedom of religion and shows you in a somewhat hypocritical light.




I have always supported religious freedom, But I don't support the concept of taking things on faith, or believing your private thoughts are some how the words of gods. I can support your right to have a religion while also hating the idea that your taking things on faith instead of evidence.

Offcourse you can hate something, don't you hate the concept of abusing children, don't you hate violence against women.

He isn't saying hate people.



> Penn Jillette should stick to magic




Magicians are some of the best debunkers out there, they know all the tricks the charlatans use to fool people. A large part of The Penn and Teller magic show is dedicated to debunking the tricks the hucksters use to fool innocent people and try to get the audience to be more sceptical rather than accept things blindly.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> I have always supported religious freedom, But I don't support the concept of taking things on faith, or believing your private thoughts are some how the words of gods. I can support your right to have a religion while also hating the idea that your taking things on faith instead of evidence.
> 
> .




I think religion helps keep people in check, whether you or I want to believe it or not. The threat of eternal damnation for being evil and reward in the afterlife for being good is a fairly powerful force. It depends on how the religions want to play their sacred books. Of course some of them take the extremist route which is not good.

The alternative is for atheists to go around telling people that no matter how good or bad they are in their lives they won't be rewarded or punished for their deeds, except by the civil authorities, and if you have a smart lawyer maybe not even then. Atheists find it a lot harder to preach morality because they can't really find a justification for it. Why should you be good to other people ? At the end of your days it doesn't matter if you do or don't according to atheists.

Taking things on evidence is a smart way to live a mortal life, but a lot of people don't like to believe that mortality is all there is and once they are dead there is nothing else. That is why atheism is an essentially unsatisfying philosophy to many people.

 While religion may be declining due to abuses by the Catholic church and Islamic extremism, people will always be hoping that there is a life after death and religions that cater to this belief will always have a foot in the door of a lot of peoples lives.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> . The threat of eternal damnation for being evil and reward in the afterlife for being good is a fairly powerful force.




It is a powerful force, it keeps the charlatans bank accounts over flowing, it keeps the divides in society firm, and it keeps otherwise good people doing terrible things.

I mean the people that flew the planes into the world trade centres were probably decent people wanting to do what was right, unfortunately they were convinced on faith that killing the infidels was the right thing to do.

You want to keep people in check, but once you have told them their faith is a pathway to truth, and the holy text are infallible, you have no way to keep them in check.  



> It depends on how the religions want to play their sacred books. Of course some of them take the extremist route which is not good.




And you will never be able to stop that through religious debate.  Only doubt and scepticism can stop extremism.



> Atheists find it a lot harder to preach morality because they can't really find a justification for it. Why should you be good to other people ?




That's not true at all, morality predates religions, the reasons to be moral are secular reasons, in fact you need to have pre existing morality before you read the religious texts, otherwise how do you judge which parts to ignore and which to believe.

Any Christian that can rationalise away and ignore the immoral parts of the bible, but cherry pick the moral teachings is showing that their moral code is not based on those texts. 



> Taking things on evidence is a smart way to live a mortal life, but a lot of people don't like to believe that mortality is all there is and once they are dead there is nothing else. That is why atheism is an essentially unsatisfying philosophy to many people.




Believing this life is merely a temporary inconvenience on the way to your immortal future can lead you to not embrace this life to its full extent.   



> While religion may be declining due to abuses by the Catholic church and Islamic extremism, people will always be hoping that there is a life after death and religions that cater to this belief will always have a foot in the door of a lot of peoples lives




Yes, there will always be con men willing to take advantage of the gullible, whether that be people doing psychic readings for those who have lost loved ones or telling people that are afraid of death that they are not really going to die. But I would rather help people over come their grief or fear with reality rather than feed them to the hucksters.


----------



## Calliope (18 December 2014)

"Ride with you" in perspective.


----------



## trainspotter (18 December 2014)

GOLD !


----------



## So_Cynical (18 December 2014)

Monis was a nutter who just happened to be a Muslim, nothing to do with Islamic terrorism.


----------



## Tisme (18 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Monis was a nutter who just happened to be a Muslim, nothing to do with Islamic terrorism.




How do you know that?


----------



## dutchie (18 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Monis was a nutter who just happened to be a Muslim, nothing to do with Islamic terrorism.




ostrichitis


----------



## Hodgie (18 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Monis was a nutter who just happened to be a Muslim, nothing to do with Islamic terrorism.




Both his actions and words were consistent with that of an Islamic terrorist. Unless we have information to the contrary why would we think anything differently.

Just because he was not acting on behalf in an organized team of terrorist within Australia does not mean that he was not an Islamic terrorist. The Islamic state have encouraged Muslims worldwide to commit acts of terrorism on their own without great planning or organisation against Westernised countries, this can be achieved through a single person such as this man actions.


----------



## Tisme (18 December 2014)

Hodgie said:


> Just because he was not acting on behalf in an organized team of terrorist within Australia does not mean that he was not an Islamic terrorist. .




All good intentions, but once again, same question how do you know that?


----------



## Julia (18 December 2014)

basilio said:


> On a far more positive note I think the widespread adoption of people of the "I'll walk with you" hashtag to support the Muslim community is incredibly human.



Really?   
I'm reminded of a conversation a couple of days ago with someone who, responding to my being appalled at two innocent Australians losing their lives, shrugged and said "s**t happens: "  Then he said, "what made me really sad was hearing that a muslim woman on a train removed her hijab".
Could we start to get a sense of proportion here?   He is, btw, a dedicated Christian who believes in God, life after death and other such fantasy.



pixel said:


> ... or it shows that Australians, in the main, are intelligent enough to see through extremist rhetoric and scaremongering. Who in their right mind would blame a young girl wearing a scarf for the atrocity of a madman who happened to also pray in a mosque?



+1.   



SirRumpole said:


> I think religion helps keep people in check, whether you or I want to believe it or not. The threat of eternal damnation for being evil and reward in the afterlife for being good is a fairly powerful force.



It might be for you presumably because you believe in it.  For those of us who decline such beliefs it has no such power.
And the lack of such fairytales does not render us devoid of reasonable moral fortitude. 

It's a defining characteristic of religious followers to assume that because they believe something, it applies to others.  It simply doesn't.



> The alternative is for atheists to go around telling people that no matter how good or bad they are in their lives they won't be rewarded or punished for their deeds, except by the civil authorities, and if you have a smart lawyer maybe not even then. Atheists find it a lot harder to preach morality because they can't really find a justification for it. Why should you be good to other people ? At the end of your days it doesn't matter if you do or don't according to atheists.



I've not observed any atheists or agnostics 'going around telling people" anything in particular.  Unless foolish enough to be drawn into a discussion such as this on an internet forum, I've never known atheists to even discuss religion.  It's irrelevant in their lives, contrary to the propensity of believers in religion to want to prosletyze.



> Taking things on evidence is a smart way to live a mortal life, but a lot of people don't like to believe that mortality is all there is and once they are dead there is nothing else. That is why atheism is an essentially unsatisfying philosophy to many people.



Atheists are realists.   Makes it more likely they will make more effort to contribute what they can in the one life we do have.



> .... people will always be hoping that there is a life after death



As above.  Speak for yourself.  Sensible people will not nurture any such imaginings.




Tisme said:


> How do you know that?



Yes, indeed, how?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Julia said:
			
		

> It (religion) might be for you presumably because you believe in it. For those of us who decline such beliefs it has no such power.




No I don't. I've said that many times. But a lot of people do.

I believe in an afterlife, not any religion's idea of what that is.



> I've not observed any atheists or agnostics 'going around telling people" anything in particular.




Your powers of observation are sadly lacking.



> As above. Speak for yourself. Sensible people will not nurture any such imaginings.




Sensible people don't believe what either religion or atheism preach as neither has proved their case.



> I've never known atheists to even discuss religion.




You must be joking. Look at all the posts of VC and FxTrader on this forum.

It's obviously vitally important to them that everyone believes what they think is "the truth", whether they can prove it or not. They are no different to the religious preachers.


----------



## Hodgie (18 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> All good intentions, but once again, same question how do you know that?




Sorry how do I know what? 

If you mean how do I know he was an Islamic terrorist, I guess that I don't know that for certain but his actions and words lead me to believe he was, so until more information becomes available to support a contrary view that is what he was in my eyes.

The point I was trying to make is that people try to blame actions such as the Sydney siege on things other than these religious beliefs, but when the man himself made comments to the media that it is an act of terror from the Islamic State and in the past has harassed the families of dead Australian troops for killing Muslim solders it appears to me that everything he is doing is motivated by his beliefs. He may have also been a nutter which pushed his beliefs to the extreme but his beliefs are what caused him to carry out these acts.


----------



## Tisme (18 December 2014)

Hodgie said:


> Sorry how do I know what?
> 
> .




That he wasn't acting on behalf in an organized team of terrorist within Australia?


----------



## Hodgie (18 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> That he wasn't acting on behalf in an organized team of terrorist within Australia?




Good question, short answer is I don't know what his affiliations are. 

However, to put the comment into context, I wrote it in response to the previous comment made "Monis was a nutter who just happened to be a Muslim, nothing to do with Islamic terrorism."

The point here is that even if he was not part of a terrorist organisation within Australia he could still be acting on behalf of the Islamic state on his own volition and therefore be classified as an Islamic terrorist.

If he is (or should I say was) part of an Islamic terrorist organisation residing within Australia then there is no argument, he most certainly would be classified as an Islamic terrorist.

It was a presumption made on my behalf but the fact of affiliation does not take away from the primary point I was making in terms of his terrorist actions and belief system.


----------



## noco (18 December 2014)

Hodgie said:


> Good question, short answer is I don't know what his affiliations are.
> 
> However, to put the comment into context, I wrote it in response to the previous comment made "Monis was a nutter who just happened to be a Muslim, nothing to do with Islamic terrorism."
> 
> ...




If he was not a terrorist and was acting as a lone wolf nutter, why did he get his hostages to hold up an IS flag to the window of the cafe?
He was a terrorist alright and good riddens to him.


----------



## Hodgie (18 December 2014)

noco said:


> If he was not a terrorist and was acting as a lone wolf nutter, why did he get his hostages to hold up an IS flag to the window of the cafe?
> He was a terrorist alright and good riddens to him.




You may have misinterpreted my previous comments. I completely agree with what you have just said.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> No I don't. I've said that many times. But a lot of people do.
> 
> I believe in an afterlife, not any religion's idea of what that is.
> 
> ...




You have developed your own private religion, you have said before you not only believe in an after life, but also think your actions in this life affect your next life.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> You have developed your own private religion, you have said before you not only believe in an after life, but also think your actions in this life affect your next life.




If I think that, why should it concern you ?

I'm not telling you how to live your life.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Sensible people don't believe what either religion or atheism preach as neither has proved their case.
> 
> 
> 
> .




Atheism doesn't preach anything, it has no doctrines or dogma.

You can't "believe in" atheism, you are either an atheist or your not. You either believe a god or gods exist, or you don't, if you don't believe in gods your an atheist, thats all it is, there is nothing to preach.

Atheism has no case to prove, Atheism is the default position, it's up to a theist to prove his position to me before I can move from the default position of non belief to a position of belief.

I didn't choose to be an atheist, I was born one, I am only an atheist because no one has ever been able to prove any gods exist, once they can,  I would cease being an atheist, I wouldn't have a choice in the matter.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> If I think that, why should it concern you ?
> 
> I'm not telling you how to live your life.




I am not attacking you for your beliefs, you have the right to hold them, I was just pointing out that you do have a religion, because in the response to Julia you said you don't, but you do.

As I said, I am just clarifying a single point.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> I am not attacking you for your beliefs, you have the right to hold them, I was just pointing out that you do have a religion, because in the response to Julia you said you don't, but you do.
> 
> As I said, I am just clarifying a single point.




You have a wide definition of religion. I'd say I have more of a belief system, like the belief that there is no God as you have.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> You have a wide definition of religion. I'd say I have more of a belief system, like the belief that there is no God as you have.




Its not that wide, you clearly fit the first part perfectly.

1, the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.


2, a particular system of faith and worship.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Its not that wide, you clearly fit the first part perfectly.
> 
> 1, the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
> 
> ...




Despite your semantic contrivances, if my belief system is a religion, it's a pretty innocuous one. If you replaced all other religions with mine, would you say the world would be a better place ?

I make no claims that I can talk to God, or that I know what He wants. I won't ask anyone to come to my church or give me any money, just to live their lives as though they will get some reward or punishment in future lives and leave it to their conscience to determine their actions.

It may not be your idea of heaven on earth, but its better than what we've got.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Despite your semantic contrivances, if my belief system is a religion, it's a pretty innocuous one. If you replaced all other religions with mine, would you say the world would be a better place ?
> 
> I make no claims that I can talk to God, or that I know what He wants. I won't ask anyone to come to my church or give me any money, just to live their lives as though they will get some reward or punishment in future lives and leave it to their conscience to determine their actions.
> 
> It may not be your idea of heaven on earth, but its better than what we've got.




I have answered this for you before, yes In general I prefer deists over theists any day.

Your private form of deism does seem rather benign, ofcourse I would rather you base your beliefs on evidence, but I am not going to come to your house with a gun for choosing to believe what you do. however, both you and I could find our selves in the gallows in certain parts of the world for not accepting the authority of various theocratic systems.


----------



## trainspotter (18 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> I have answered this for you before, yes In general I prefer deists over theists any day.




I prefer it when the carpet matches the curtains myself.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Value Collector said:
			
		

> however, both you and I could find our selves in the gallows in certain parts of the world for not accepting the authority of various theocratic systems.




Or be shot for not knowing quotes from a holy book.

Oh yes I'm well aware of the dangers of extremism but imo we should be condeming the bad parts of religion, not the whole lot.

 I think it's easier to make religious people see that their doctrine has some flaws that they can modify for the modern world (like not keeping slaves), than it is to convince them to throw it away in its entirety. 

I've mentioned before that religion is a social club to a lot of people. Why try and talk people out of going to their club and enjoying themselves if it keeps them from hanging around in pubs getting drunk and assaulting people ? 

I'm more worried about the increasing boganisation of our society by the constant drip of alcohol and gambling promotions than I am about people congregating in churches and singing hymns. There are a lot worse things that they could be doing and I see no need to villify them for that.


----------



## Calliope (18 December 2014)

trainspotter said:


> I prefer it when the carpet matches the curtains myself.




I can't imagine what deists and theists have to do with this thread, but i suppose that VC and SR love to argue over trivia. I seem to recall that they argued for days on the merits or otherwise of halal labelling.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> I can't imagine what deists and theists have to do with this thread, but i suppose that VC and SR love to argue over trivia. I seem to recall that they argued for days on the merits or otherwise of halal labelling.




Keeps us off the streets


----------



## So_Cynical (18 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> How do you know that?






Hodgie said:


> Both his actions and words were consistent with that of an Islamic terrorist. Unless we have information to the contrary why would we think anything differently.
> 
> Just because he was not acting on behalf in an organized team of terrorist within Australia does not mean that he was not an Islamic terrorist. The Islamic state have encouraged Muslims worldwide to commit acts of terrorism on their own without great planning or organisation against Westernised countries, this can be achieved through a single person such as this man actions.




I don't think someone acting on their  own can genuinely be called a terrorist, he didn't even have an IS flag, a bomb or decent weapon...what he did have was a proven criminal history and clear signs of delusion and mental illness.

This whole thing is a bit of a beat up...the guy is a nut pure and simple.

---------------

True news sums up my view pretty well.
~
[video=youtube_share;aZ8ZYAvWTxo]http://youtu.be/aZ8ZYAvWTxo[/video]


----------



## Calliope (18 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> This whole thing is a bit of a beat up...the guy is a nut pure and simple.




I don't think he is a pure and simple nut. He was an Islamic jihadist nut. I know that you, like many posters, are desperately trying to to separate his terrorism from the Islamic faith. Why? It's a futile exercise. What happened to your cynicism? Has it been replaced by naivety?


----------



## DB008 (18 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I don't think someone acting on their  own can genuinely be called a terrorist, he didn't even have an IS flag, a bomb or decent weapon...what he did have was a proven criminal history and clear signs of delusion and mental illness.
> 
> This whole thing is a bit of a beat up...the guy is a nut pure and simple.







> *Flag being held by Lindt Chocolat Cafe hostages is not an Islamic State flag*
> 
> The flag shown being held by hostages against the window of Lindt Chocolat Cafe is not an Islamic State flag, but is an Islamic flag that has been co-opted by jihadist groups.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/national/flag-being-held-by-lindt-chocolat-cafe-hostages-is-not-an-islamic-state-flag-20141215-1279s0.html


----------



## DB008 (18 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> I don't think he is a pure and simple nut. He was an Islamic jihadist nut. I know that you, like many posters, are desperately trying to to separate his terrorism from the Islamic faith. Why? It's a futile exercise. What happened to your cynicism? Has it been replaced by naivety?




Why?

Because, for some reason in our modern society, we are not allowed to call a spade a spade.

If you do, you are a bigot or a racist.

It's a simple as that.


----------



## bellenuit (18 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I don't think someone acting on their  own can genuinely be called a terrorist, he didn't even have an IS flag, a bomb or decent weapon...what he did have was a proven criminal history and clear signs of delusion and mental illness.




Didn't he request an IS flag? Also, his weapon was decent enough to kill 2 people and would possibly have killed more had the police not stormed the building.

You don't need to even have a weapon to terrorise. People can be terrorised by what you might be assumed to have when they don't know. Also, didn't those who brought down the plane over Pennsylvania (?) just have box cutters, as did the others who flew into the Pentagon and Twin Towers.

I think we are back to what has been stated here many times. The extremists tell you what their motivations and intentions are, but we (usually the left) simply do not want to know. Anything and everything is assumed, but not what they say.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> I don't think he is a pure and simple nut. He was an Islamic jihadist nut. I know that you, like many posters, are desperately trying to to separate his terrorism from the Islamic faith. Why? It's a futile exercise. What happened to your cynicism? Has it been replaced by naivety?




He was clearly influenced by Islamist dogma, so in that sense he was an Islamic terrorist. Fortunately he wasn't particularly clever or organised so he wasn't very effective. A number of hostages escaped so clearly he didn't have a cohesive plan and it seemed he acted alone. 

The situation he generated could have been worse, but it was bad enough for those who were killed.

The disturbing and unanswered question is "how many more like him" ?


----------



## Julia (18 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I don't think someone acting on their  own can genuinely be called a terrorist,



Why on earth not?
Is there some specific number whereby individuals acting out of religious fanaticism can be described as terrorists in your definition???



> he didn't even have an IS flag, a bomb or decent weapon...what he did have was a proven criminal history and clear signs of delusion and mental illness.
> 
> This whole thing is a bit of a beat up...the guy is a nut pure and simple.



So now you're a psychiatrist, what's more, able to diagnose mental illness in someone you've never met and know almost nothing about.

There have been numerous interviews, mostly on ABC Radio with psychiatrists and psychologists testifying to the hostage taker being entirely unlikely to have been afflicted by any form of mental illness.

Rather that - like most terrorists - he was driven by his fanatical obsession with his version of Islam.


----------



## So_Cynical (18 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Didn't he request an IS flag? Also, his weapon was decent enough to kill 2 people and would possibly have killed more had the police not stormed the building.




Killed 2 people hey, how do you know?


----------



## IFocus (18 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Didn't he request an IS flag? Also, his weapon was decent enough to kill 2 people and would possibly have killed more had the police not stormed the building.
> 
> .




He was an Iranian Shia

The nut case IS mob are super extreme Sunni

Sunnis would even spit on his dead body even if he was a suicide bomber.

Sounds like he just totally lost the plot.

BTW nut case white men in Australia by far and away have have killed more people that Islam jihadist will ever do.

White men committing domestic violence slaughter will kill more people / children of our own than jihadist will ever do in Australia

Most of you will not even blink as these news items cross the TV screens each night.


----------



## noco (18 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> He was clearly influenced by Islamist dogma, so in that sense he was an Islamic terrorist. Fortunately he wasn't particularly clever or organised so he wasn't very effective. A number of hostages escaped so clearly he didn't have a cohesive plan and it seemed he acted alone.
> 
> The situation he generated could have been worse, but it was bad enough for those who were killed.
> 
> The disturbing and unanswered question is "how many more like him" ?




When those 600 odd AFP made that raid some months ago, there were at least 200 Muslims protestors in the streets and you can bet your boots the AFP would have them well photographed.

I thought at the time it was a good ploy  by the AFP to drag them out of the wood work and it worked so well.....they received the desired affect......I did make a comment when it happened.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

Julia said:


> Rather that - like most terrorists - he was driven by his fanatical obsession with his version of Islam.




I wonder what the borderline between mentally ill or just bad is ?

If someone is so affected by ideology that they don't understand that what they are doing is evil because they truly believe they are doing God's will, are they mentally ill ?

Richard Dawkins thinks that having a religion is akin to mental illness, so surely all terrorists are insane according to him and should be treated in mental hospitals not prisons.

If they then discard that ideology and realise they have done wrong, are they then cured ?


----------



## luutzu (18 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> I don't think someone acting on their  own can genuinely be called a terrorist, he didn't even have an IS flag, a bomb or decent weapon...what he did have was a proven criminal history and clear signs of delusion and mental illness.
> 
> This whole thing is a bit of a beat up...the guy is a nut pure and simple.
> 
> ...





Scary how a guy in a bathrobe, talking from his bedroom makes more sense than most professionals in the media.

There's an SMH article the day after the tragedy where the journalist there was saying how on the streets near the scene, people are calm and the police and security people know what they're doing... but the further away from the scene, the more freaked out politicians and most media commentators are.

It's a bit wrong that when we people see something like this, not sure what it is exactly, not sure what to make of it so we turn to our leadership and the media for information and thoughts... but when we turn to them they go "BOOO! If you're not scared, you should be!"


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2014)

noco said:


> When those 600 odd AFP made that raid some months ago, there were at least 200 Muslims protestors in the streets and you can bet your boots the AFP would have them well photographed.
> 
> I thought at the time it was a good ploy  by the AFP to drag them out of the wood work and it worked so well.....they received the desired affect......I did make a comment when it happened.




Sure a good idea, but with all those beards can they tell one from the other ?


----------



## bellenuit (18 December 2014)

IFocus said:


> He was an Iranian Shia
> 
> The nut case IS mob are super extreme Sunni




_Monis apparently converted to Sunni Islam only recently, perhaps because you can't really claim to love IS when you're a Shiite and they're trying to exterminate you._

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/sydne...l-sheikh-only-to-himself-20141216-128h9x.html


----------



## luutzu (18 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> I don't think he is a pure and simple nut. He was an Islamic jihadist nut. I know that you, like many posters, are desperately trying to to separate his terrorism from the Islamic faith. Why? It's a futile exercise. What happened to your cynicism? Has it been replaced by naivety?




Did you get this heated when Martin Bryant and Port Arthur happen?

The dude is White. Should we blame his "Whiteness" and by association, all White people?

He was Tasmanian. Should we barred all Tasmanians from the mainland?

He, according to Wikipedia, was assessed to be mentally ill, low IQ... what should we do with low-IQ, mentally ill people?

But that's different right?


----------



## noco (18 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure a good idea, but with all those beards can they tell one from the other ?




According the link there were some 400 protestors not 200 as I mentioned before.

But I don't think Muslims have mustaches for some reason, only the beard.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...|heading|homepage|homepage&itmt=1418906224047


----------



## Calliope (19 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Killed 2 people hey, how do you know?




So_Gullible.


----------



## So_Cynical (19 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> So_Gullible.




Fair chance the cops killed one of them, Coroners report will  tell all...you guys are the Gullible.


----------



## bellenuit (19 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Fair chance the cops killed one of them, Coroners report will  tell all...you guys are the Gullible.




Even if that turns out to be the case, it was he who created the situation where such an event was likely to happen. Lay blame where blame is due.


----------



## bellenuit (19 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> Did you get this heated when Martin Bryant and Port Arthur happen?
> 
> The dude is White. Should we blame his "Whiteness" and by association, all White people?
> 
> ...




What a silly argument. Being white or Tasmanian are not something one has a choice about, but adopting an extreme ideology is. No one is blaming all muslims for this, but the Islamic doctrine includes dogma that justifies horrific acts against others. Those who chose to cherry pick the doctrine and act on the vilest part of the doctrine are culpable for their actions.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> What a silly argument. Being white or Tasmanian are not something one has a choice about, but adopting an extreme ideology is. No one is blaming all muslims for this, but the Islamic doctrine includes dogma that justifies horrific acts against others. Those who chose to cherry pick the doctrine and act on the vilest part of the doctrine are culpable for their actions.




So he did this in the name of Islam?

What if someone were to do some crazy, criminal acts... and said they do it in your name. Or they know you and did it after meeting you... Should we blame you?

Anyway...


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2014)

Since when do you have to be a member of ISIS, to be an Islamic terrorist? There are many brands of Islamic terrorists, and yes it is possible to be a solo terrorist.

And the guys flag wasn't a fake flag, it had a genuine Islamic slogan on it, it just wasn't an Isis flag.


----------



## bellenuit (19 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> So he did this in the name of Islam?
> 
> What if someone were to do some crazy, criminal acts... and said they do it in your name. Or they know you and did it after meeting you... Should we blame you?
> 
> Anyway...




Again a silly argument. If I had been advocating others to do crazy criminal acts, then yes, I and he would be culpable if he did it in my name. But when that is not the case and there is nothing that I have ever said that should cause him to undertake such acts, then why would I be culpable?

But Islam is a doctrine, as you well know, that contains many passages demanding of its followers to commit the most vile and heinous acts on others; apostates, non-believers, followers of other faiths, homosexuals, adulterers etc. You are totally aware of these doctrines, as they have been brought to your attention many times in this and other threads. So if a follower of Islam commits such heinous acts in the name of Islam, then he and those who advocate following the extreme parts of that doctrine, as well as the author of that doctrine, whoever that may be, are culpable.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Since when do you have to be a member of ISIS, to be an Islamic terrorist? There are many brands of Islamic terrorists, and yes it is possible to be a solo terrorist.
> 
> And the guys flag wasn't a fake flag, it had a genuine Islamic slogan on it, it just wasn't an Isis flag.




You don't have to. But if it's Islam or politics that drove him to do this, he'd done it back when he wrote those nasty letters to families of our servicemen.

So I'm not saying that his religion or politics has nothing to do with it, but maybe other factors play a bigger role here. Fact that he's a sociopath, has a deep and wide criminal background, that his High Court challenge failed, he's cornered... Then maybe he's too weak to take himself out so decided to go out some sort of hero. Who knows.

We seem to ignore these and focus on the fact that he's a Muslim, hates Western foreign policies and so he's waging Jihad.


If a Muslim jaywalk or litter or do something stupid and criminal, are we going to blame the Koran and Islam?

I, and I am sure most of us, don't attribute the good and bad things we do to our religion or our ethnicity... most of us would blame or praise our deeds on ourselves (or our parents depends on our moods), but we seem to have no issue blaming others' actions on their race or their religion.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2014)

bellenuit said:


> Again a silly argument. If I had been advocating others to do crazy criminal acts, then yes, I and he would be culpable if he did it in my name. But when that is not the case and there is nothing that I have ever said that should cause him to undertake such acts, then why would I be culpable?
> 
> But Islam is a doctrine, as you well know, that contains many passages demanding of its followers to commit the most vile and heinous acts on others; apostates, non-believers, followers of other faiths, homosexuals, adulterers etc. You are totally aware of these doctrines, as they have been brought to your attention many times in this and other threads. So if a follower of Islam commits such heinous acts in the name of Islam, then he and those who advocate following the extreme parts of that doctrine, as well as the author of that doctrine, whoever that may be, are culpable.




Islam is a religion, and like all religion there's a bunch of nonsense, a bunch of violent and idiotic superstition in there. And like all religion and religious texts, there are also good moral teachings in there as well.

You make it out like Islam is the only religion that advocate the worship of one true god; or the only religion that preaches and used and abused to wage wars and establish political doctrines and states.

Weren't the Crusades a series of Holy Wars? How did all of Europe and most of the world convert to Christianity? Through songs and dance over Christmas?


----------



## bellenuit (19 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> Islam is a religion, and like all religion there's a bunch of nonsense, a bunch of violent and idiotic superstition in there. And like all religion and religious texts, there are also good moral teachings in there as well.




I never claimed otherwise.



> You make it out like Islam is the only religion that advocate the worship of one true god; or the only religion that preaches and used and abused to wage wars and establish political doctrines and states.




No I don't. Read my posts. I am just as critical of Christianity.



> Weren't the Crusades a series of Holy Wars? How did all of Europe and most of the world convert to Christianity?




Yes they were. They were, in many cases, converted through heinous acts of violence made upon them.



> Through songs and dance over Christmas?




Perhaps some of the Kumbaya folk were converted this way.


----------



## Tisme (19 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Killed 2 people hey, how do you know?




We don't. Not withstanding the inaccuracy of the press in their excitement to get paper's out. this is a take from SMH:



In those final seconds, they killed Monis. But the barrister Katrina Dawson – mother of three, and Julie Taylor's coffee companion – was also killed in the firefight. Police believe it was Monis's bullet that killed her.

Injured in those final violent seconds were Marcia Mikhael, shot in the leg, the 75-year-old woman, shot in the shoulder, a 52-year-old woman who was shot in the foot, and a 39-year-old policeman whose face was sprayed with pellets

The only reference to shotgun spray is to a copper's face. I have to wonder how Monis managed to get off shotgun attempts and bullets at the same time.


----------



## Calliope (19 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> Fair chance the cops killed one of them, Coroners report will  tell all...you guys are the Gullible.




You say the whole thing was just a "beat-up". Others on this thread are saying similar things...but only out of ignorance. That doesn't apply in your case, you are not stupid. I suspect you are deliberately trolling.


----------



## Tisme (19 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> Islam is a religion




 more of a moralistic cop out lifestyle, hiding behind words written for subjugation of troublesome tribes and women in general,  IMO.


----------



## Calliope (19 December 2014)

It's mind-boggling. Why are our protection agencies so incredibly incompetent.?



> Man Haron Monis: The 10 fatal failures that led to a horrific day
> 
> Had one of the failings been overturned, the terrorist attack which rocked a nation to the core might have been prevented.
> 
> ...




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...l&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=17300093


----------



## SirRumpole (19 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> It's mind-boggling. Why are our protection agencies so incredibly incompetent.?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...l&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=17300093




FAILED

If he didn't have a gun licence, where did he get his gun ?


----------



## overhang (19 December 2014)

When you consider the actual definition of a terrorist attack then this technically is a terrorist attack regardless if he was a lone wolf or somewhat insane.  In truth he seems like the sort of loose cannon that was capable of something similar regardless of doctrine but no doubt Islam added fuel to the fire for this man.  I'd prefer the media portrayed this man as a nut job rather than a terrorist, I feel if you give the crazy label then other potential copycat lone wolfs may be deterred that such a crime is simply labeled as a lunatic rather than someone on a Islamic crusade that they can look up to.

I do find it interesting though how quickly and willing the media were to label this as terrorism but yet when we were made aware that the Norwegian attacks weren't by a Muslim but actually by a right wing christian the terrorist label was dropped by the media even though that fitted the perfect definition of a terrorist attack.


----------



## Tisme (19 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> FAILED
> 
> If he didn't have a gun licence, where did he get his gun ?




I think Bill Shorten smells a rat and why he is asking for open reporting on the inquiry. I too wonder how the AFP could have a manually inputted licence in their database for this bloke. If he was Mossad I could understand it.


----------



## Hodgie (19 December 2014)

overhang said:


> I do find it interesting though how quickly and willing the media were to label this as terrorism but yet when we were made aware that the Norwegian attacks weren't by a Muslim but actually by a right wing christian the terrorist label was dropped by the media even though that fitted the perfect definition of a terrorist attack.




It could be perhaps because Christianity in general does not set out to destroy our way off life, it is more a part of our westernised community whereas these extremists in Islamic State clearly have opposing views and would eradicate us all given the opportunity.

Plus it's the media.... they will spin a story whichever way to get more public interest.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 December 2014)

Tisme said:


> I think Bill Shorten smells a rat and why he is asking for open reporting on the inquiry. I too wonder how the AFP could have a manually inputted licence in their database for this bloke. If he was Mossad I could understand it.




Rats in the ranks perhaps ?


----------



## overhang (19 December 2014)

Hodgie said:


> It could be perhaps because Christianity in general does not set out to destroy our way off life, it is more a part of our westernised community whereas these extremists in Islamic State clearly have opposing views and would eradicate us all given the opportunity.
> 
> Plus it's the media.... they will spin a story whichever way to get more public interest.




Well like other religions the bible sets out for world domination but we're just lucky enough that Western society in general has progressed past this through education and now the majority of Christians follow the new testament and not the old testament that would by doctrine have carried out stonings and have people burned at the stake.


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2014)

luutzu said:


> Islam is a religion, and like all religion there's a bunch of nonsense, a bunch of violent and idiotic superstition in there.




Agreed, that's why a lot of us atheists are against the idea of taking these things on faith, because regardless of what people say in favour of moderate religion, a certain percentage will take it literally and become extremists, you can't get rid of extremism without out debunking the whole concept.



> And like all religion and religious texts, there are also good moral teachings in there as well




You have to have pre-existing morality to be able to know which parts to avoid and which parts are the good moral teaching.

But, is there any good aspects of religion that can not be achieved in other ways? 

If you can't think of any good aspects of religion that can't be mirrored in secular ways, why would you promote the religious method when you know it has a lot of nasty side effects.


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> FAILED
> 
> If he didn't have a gun licence, where did he get his gun ?




Didn't he have a pump action shot gun?

They are illegal even with a license aren't they?

Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 December 2014)

Value Collector said:
			
		

> you can't get rid of extremism without out debunking the whole concept.




And how do you propose to do that ?

The essential concept of any religion is that there is a God, that its more powerful than anyone on earth, and has rules that it expects followed.

If you can't disprove the existence of God, then how can you debunk the concept of religion ?


----------



## basilio (19 December 2014)

Another perspective on Muslim terrorism Well worth a read and in particular for the last few paragraphs on suicide bombers.


> * Pakistan attack reveals the truth about terrorism: it kills more poor Muslims than rich westerners
> Ben Doherty
> 
> In 2013, 12 people died in terrorist attacks in the west compared with 22,000 in non-western countries. How can poor Muslims escape the scourge of Islamist extremism?*
> ...




http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-kills-more-poor-muslims-than-rich-westerners


----------



## Hodgie (19 December 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> And how do you propose to do that ?
> 
> The essential concept of any religion is that there is a God, that its more powerful than anyone on earth, and has rules that it expects followed.
> 
> If you can't disprove the existence of God, then how can you debunk the concept of religion ?




It's not an easy question to answer and there is no easy solution.

You won't convert the world over as it stands today, all you can do is look to the future. It's something that could only be changed over a long period of time.

I don't have any statistics to back this up but my guess would be that if you compared current society to society hundreds of years ago I would imagine that the population as a percentage continues to decrease in terms of religious vs non religious. Being that the nonreligious become more prevalent. 

This would be highly correlated with advances of science and being able to explain the previously inexplicable.

In the end, we made god up so we take him (or her) away.


----------



## So_Cynical (19 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Didn't he have a pump action shot gun?
> 
> They are illegal even with a license aren't they?
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong.




Legal with a magazine capacity of 5 rounds.


----------



## tech/a (19 December 2014)

Hodgie said:


> It's not an easy question to answer and there is no easy solution.
> 
> You won't convert the world over as it stands today, all you can do is look to the future. It's something that could only be changed over a long period of time.
> 
> ...




Even in the face of blinding evidence there is no god --- there will always be religion.
They will always be right and any other solution to where we come from---including a billions to 1 fluke----will be incorrect---they will oppose this in some cases with their own death.

And we are the most intelligent of species on the planet!


----------



## pavilion103 (19 December 2014)

I wouldn't put my trust in a one in a billion fluke any more than I would a one in a billion trade.

I'm not aware of any evidence that there is no god.

I'm not aware of any evidence that it is possible for there to be an eternal self sustaining universe.


----------



## Calliope (19 December 2014)

tech/a said:


> Even in the face of blinding evidence there is no god --- there will always be religion.
> They will always be right and any other solution to where we come from---including a billions to 1 fluke----will be incorrect---they will oppose this in some cases with their own death.
> 
> And we are the most intelligent of species on the planet!




Religion is a crutch. Those above a certain intellectual capacity don't need this crutch. Which bring us back to poor stupid Monis. Without Islamism as a crutch he would have been just another dole bludger. Islamism buoyed him up with a magnificent crutch. He was given a one-way ticket to Paradise and its 72 dark-eyed virgins. All he had to do to earn it, was to martyr himself by killing infidels. Some say he only killed one, but one will suffice.


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2014)

pavilion103 said:


> I'm not aware of any evidence that there is no god.




Ideas asserted without with out evidence can be dismissed without evidence, the burden of proof is on you to prove your god exists, not us to disprove it.


----------



## trainspotter (19 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Ideas asserted without with out evidence can be dismissed without evidence, the burden of proof is on you to prove your god exists, not us to disprove it.




Yes there is a God.


----------



## So_Cynical (19 December 2014)

pavilion103 said:


> I wouldn't put my trust in a one in a billion fluke any more than I would a one in a billion trade.




You put your money in a trade, trust is something else...costs me nothing to be an Atheist, costs you nothing not to be.



pavilion103 said:


> I'm not aware of any evidence that there is no god.




WOW - i would of thought that 300 years of scientific endeavours and discoverys would count for something.



pavilion103 said:


> I'm not aware of any evidence that it is possible for there to be an *eternal self sustaining universe*.




Watched a TV show the other night on a newish theory, there is evidence that the laws governing our known universe are not as absolute as once thought, opening up the universe to new possibility's about endless expansion and dimensions...a self sustaining universe that never ends.

All science based, no gods required.


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2014)

trainspotter said:


> Yes there is a God.




Wouldn't a god have got them to add that to their currency from the start, instead of waiting till the cold war as propaganda against the "godless" Russians.

Scotlands national animal is a unicorn, so I wouldn't trust government slogans, motto's or emblems, lol


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> You put your money in a trade, trust is something else...costs me nothing to be an Atheist, costs you nothing not to be.
> 
> 
> 
> .




Being a religious theist can come at a pretty high cost, all those wasted Sundays for a start, and imagine having to abandon you child because a slight variation in the dna code made them gay, which was unacceptable to your dogma.


----------



## trainspotter (19 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Wouldn't a god have got them to add that to their currency from the start, instead of waiting till the cold war as propaganda against the "godless" Russians.
> 
> Scotlands national animal is a unicorn, so I wouldn't trust government slogans, motto's or emblems, lol




Money is God me old chum. And if you don't think so then I would like to see you live without it. (silverchair reference)


----------



## SirRumpole (19 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Being a religious theist can come at a pretty high cost, all those wasted Sundays for a start, and imagine having to abandon you child because a slight variation in the dna code made them gay, which was unacceptable to your dogma.




I wonder how religions are going to resolve this issue. 

They all have made a complete hash of it so far.

I think Anwar Ibrahim would agree, and he's not even gay.


----------



## luutzu (19 December 2014)

Value Collector said:


> Agreed, that's why a lot of us atheists are against the idea of taking these things on faith, because regardless of what people say in favour of moderate religion, a certain percentage will take it literally and become extremists, you can't get rid of extremism without out debunking the whole concept.
> 
> You have to have pre-existing morality to be able to know which parts to avoid and which parts are the good moral teaching.
> 
> ...





I think religion were never really promoted for moral purposes, it's all done for political reasons from up top.

For the masses though, maybe they go along with it because, at first, they have to, then later generations it's just what they were brought up to do and all those around them are doing it.

I think most people never really sit down and question their religion or read the holy texts. Most would be too busy to think about such "obvious truth" that there is a god  - they might just think that there must be a god or else why does so many people believe in it etc. And maybe in believing in a god, they may find some comfort in time of personal loss and sorrow.

I've been to Church a few times and all I remember was the father telling a couple of feel good stories - that I can't hear properly, lots of kneeling and singing, lots of yawning then we all shook our neighbours hand. 

So maybe for most people that attend church, mosque, temples... that's also all they do. Then there are some who actually read the fine prints and go search for Noah's Ark (in Turkey apparently). 

So I think you're right that people are generally good despite being religious... they, say, pick up and remember the golden rule or the good Samaritan and ignore the others... but then, yea, all these they could read and learn from practically every philosopher or stories around the world. Then there are those who know of the golden rule but reasoned the other person doesn't mind as much as they would.


----------



## basilio (20 December 2014)

The President of a Patriotic Australian group is behind bars.  Worth seeing just what he has done as a "patriot" and consider is this the type of person we want in Australia. (But we can't deport him can we ??)



> *"Patriots" president locked up in NSW
> *
> Date
> December 19, 2014 - 11:30PM
> ...




http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/patriots-president-locked-up-in-nsw-20141219-12b14j.html


----------



## Calliope (20 December 2014)

basilio said:


> The President of a Patriotic Australian group is behind bars.  Worth seeing just what he has done as a "patriot" and consider is this the type of person we want in Australia. (But we can't deport him can we ??)




I hope they throw  the book at him...but of course they won't. His crimes are insignificant compared to those of Monis, who was allowed to walk free. But you never know...apparently he spat at a Muslim. I know you can spit at a policeman and get away with it...but at a Muslim???


----------



## overhang (22 December 2014)

Calliope said:


> I know you can spit at a policeman and get away with it...but at a Muslim???




How do you know this Calliope?  The last I checked spitting on a police officer is actually considered 'serious assault of police'.


----------



## overhang (22 December 2014)

I spotted this comment on a news article about the Pakistan school terrorist attack.




> Pakistani here.
> 
> It doesnt matter how many Taliban the Army kills it encounters or hangs in our jails. Yes it is important to take the fight to the Taliban, but it seems nobody in our government has understood yet that the root of terrorism is *islamic extremism*!
> 
> ...



My bold.  What hope does a country like Pakistan have of controlling this when even in a secular country like Australia we still have an issue with controlling Islamic extremism when Muslims only make up 2% of the population.


----------



## bellenuit (22 December 2014)

*France Dijon: Driver targets city pedestrians*

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europ...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central


----------



## DB008 (19 January 2015)

In light of the Paris shootings....




> *MI5 warns of copycat terror attacks*
> 
> London: Andrew Parker, the director-general of Britain's Security Service, MI5, warned that the threat of a "mass casualty attack" was growing and that intelligence pointed to the existence of specific plots.
> 
> ...


----------



## DB008 (20 January 2015)

Seem familiar?



> *ISIS Gives Japan 72 Hours to Save Hostages*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bunyip (21 January 2015)

More fool us if we ignore this warning and think the problem will just go away.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/justice-jeanine/index.html#/v/3982602485001


----------



## DB008 (21 January 2015)

Foreign Fighters in Iraq and Syria - Where do they come from?

http://www.rferl.org/contentinfographics/foreign-fighters-syria-iraq-is-isis-isil-infographic/26584940.html


----------



## basilio (22 January 2015)

Interesting  historical perspective on the causes and solutions to current terrorist attacks


> *The War with Radical Islam*
> 
> NEW YORK – French Prime Minister Manuel Valls was not speaking metaphorically when he said that France is at war with radical Islam. There is, indeed, a full-fledged war underway, and the heinous terrorist attacks in Paris were part of it. Yet, like most wars, this one is about more than religion, fanaticism, and ideology. It is also about geopolitics, and its ultimate solution lies in geopolitics as well.
> 
> ...




http://www.project-syndicate.org/co...itary-intervention-by-jeffrey-d-sachs-2015-01


----------



## basilio (22 January 2015)

Oops  Duplicate post


----------



## DB008 (25 January 2015)

*Report: Islamic State executes Japanese hostage*



> According to intelligence group, radical jihadists force one of two hostages to report his countryman's execution.
> 
> Twitter accounts linked to the Islamic State group shared a video on Saturday showing Kenji Goto Jogo – one of two Japanese nationals taken hostage by the Islamist radicals – announcing that his fellow countryman was executed, according to the intelligence group SITE.
> 
> ...




http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4618617,00.html


----------



## SirRumpole (25 January 2015)

Here is a fellow who puts his life where his mouth is.

Is he deluded or just incredibly brave ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-...nionist-leaves-to-fight-islamic-state/6045204


----------



## Bintang (25 January 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Is he deluded or just incredibly brave ?




Probably both.   His odds aren’t very good.  
Kurds:  *1*
ISIS: *90* 

Absolutely brilliant logic from the ABC:  _"He was able to leave the country because he was not on a watch list"_

PS: would be fantastic if all other Labor politicians in the country followed his example.


----------



## DB008 (27 January 2015)

*The Islamic State (Full Length)*







> The Islamic State, a hardline Sunni jihadist group that formerly had ties to al Qaeda, has conquered large swathes of Iraq and Syria. Previously known as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), the group has announced its intention to reestablish the caliphate and has declared its leader, the shadowy Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, as the caliph.
> 
> The lightning advances the Islamic State made across Syria and Iraq in June shocked the world. But it's not just the group's military victories that have garnered attention ”” it's also the pace with which its members have begun to carve out a viable state.
> 
> ...


----------



## DB008 (1 February 2015)

*Islamic State releases video claiming to behead Japanese hostage Kenji Goto*




> THE Islamic State claims to have beheaded Japanese hostage Kenji Goto in a sickening new progaganda video, ending days of negotiations by diplomats to save the man.
> 
> The video, released on militant websites and highlighted by militant sympathizers on social media sites, bore the symbol of the Islamic State group’s al-Furqan media arm.
> It was also posted on YouTube but was taken down around an hour later.
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/world/islamic-state-releases-video-claiming-to-behead-japanese-hostage-kenji-goto/story-fndir2ev-1227203841336


----------



## DB008 (4 February 2015)

*Barbarians Burn Pilot Alive: ISIS Will Never Release A Living Prisoner*



> ISIS released a video showing a Jordanian pilot being burned alive””and the murder may have happened weeks before they tried to ransom him for a would-be suicide bomber.
> 
> The so-called Islamic State has released a video of a man, almost certainly Jordanian pilot Muadh al Kasasbeh, being burned alive in a cage. Jordanian officials are saying that despite cynical efforts by the group widely known as ISIS to bargain for the man’s life in recent negotiations, he probably was killed as early as January 3. His F-16 had crashed and he was captured in ISIS-controlled territory in Syria on December 24.
> 
> Jordan vowed an "earth-shattering" response, and hours after the video was released the government said it executed two prisoners: Sajida al Rishawi, a female would-be al Qaeda suicide bomber, and Ziad al Karbouli, also reported to have been an al Qaeda operative. Last week, Jordan had said it would release al Rishawi, who was on death row pending an appeal, in exchange for the pilot, but wanted proof he was still alive. Unconfirmed reports had been circulating for some time that he might already have been killed.




http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/isis-burns-jordanian-pilot-alive.html


----------



## DB008 (11 February 2015)

2 arrested for plot do public beheading. I'll post link tonight.

Islam, religion of peace hey?


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2015)

DB008 said:


> 2 arrested for plot do public beheading. I'll post link tonight.
> 
> Islam, religion of peace hey?




It seems as though Martin Place is somewhere to steer clear of.


----------



## DB008 (11 February 2015)

sptrawler said:


> It seems as though Martin Place is somewhere to steer clear of.




It's beginning to sound like it SP.

The religion of peace strikes again!


*Two men charged over imminent terror plot*



> Two men have been charged with planning to undertake a terrorist attack and will appear in a Sydney court.
> 
> The 24-year-old man and 25-year-old man, both from Fairfield, were charged with undertaking acts in preparation and planning for a terrorist attack, after police conducted anti-terror raids overnight.
> 
> ...




http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2015/02/11/two-arrested-in-sydney-on-beheading-plot.html


----------



## dutchie (12 February 2015)

DB008 said:


> *Two men charged over imminent terror plot*




Australian taxpayer was funding their plotting.



Psst,  nothing to do with Islam


----------



## dutchie (16 February 2015)

Prime minister Tony Abbott has taken to YouTube to claim that Australians are being taken “for mugs” by some immigrants, flagging a crackdown in the name of national security to remove “the benefit of the doubt”.

“There’s been the benefit of the doubt at our borders, the benefit of the doubt for residency, the benefit of the doubt for citizenship and the benefit of the doubt at Centrelink,” he said in the YouTube address.

“It’s clear to me, that for too long, we have given those who might be a threat to our country the benefit of the doubt.

“We are a free and fair nation. But that doesn’t mean we should let bad people play us for mugs, and all too often they have: *Well, that’s going to stop*.”

(my bolds)


About bloody time.


http://www.businessinsider.com.au/t...nger-be-given-the-benefit-of-the-doubt-2015-2


----------



## Bintang (16 February 2015)

dutchie said:


> “We are a free and fair nation. But that doesn’t mean we should let bad people play us for mugs, and all too often they have: *Well, that’s going to stop*.”
> About bloody time.




I hope he gets his finger out and gets on with it tout de suite. We don't want to end up like Sweden


----------



## DB008 (16 February 2015)

Animals


*The Islamic State spread the beheading of 21 Egyptian hostages in Libya*



> The terrorists of the Islamic State (ISIS, for its acronym in English) released today a video showing the beheading of about 21 men, who identified as Egyptian Coptic Christians (Orthodox Christians) captured in Libya .
> 
> In the recording released by internet, looks at least ten men, with orange dress, kneeling with his hands cuffed behind his back , beheaded by his kidnappers, dressed in black. According to jihadist forums, a total of 21 hostages.




http://www.infobae.com/2015/02/15/1627000-el-estado-islamico-difundio-la-decapitacion-21-rehenes-egipcios-libia


----------



## DB008 (1 March 2015)

*Letter threat to behead Jacqui Lambie*​


> POLICE are investigating a poison pen letter claiming that terrorists plan to behead Tasmanian senator Jacqui Lambie unless she helps introduce Sharia law in Australia.
> 
> The letter warns that “you are the enemy of Islamic State, therefore, I will take the honour in beheading you”.
> 
> ...




http://www.themercury.com.au/news/politics/letter-threat-to-behead-jacqui-lambie/story-fnpp9w4j-1227243118114​


----------



## DB008 (7 March 2015)

*Kill Dutch Jihadis So They Can’t Return Home, Says PM’s Party​*


> Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte courted controversy in a TV debate last night by saying it would be better if jihadis who leave to fight in Syria died there rather than return to the country. But today a spokesperson for his party went even further, saying that it would be better for the Dutch armed forces, who are participating the the fight against ISIS, to kill their fellow citizens rather than allow them to return home where they might commit acts of terror.
> 
> Speaking at a televised leaders’ debate, Rutte, who leads the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) drew criticism from his opponents for saying he agreed with the statement that it would be better if jihadis died in Syria instead of coming home.
> 
> Rutte defended his position, saying that those who go to Syria to fight know what they are getting into. “The only aim is to kill as many people as possible”, he said.





http://www.newsweek.com/better-jihadis-die-abroad-come-home-says-dutch-pm-311922​


----------



## DB008 (8 March 2015)

*Nigeria's Boko Haram pledges allegiance to Islamic State*​


> Nigerian militant group Boko Haram has pledged allegiance to Islamic State (IS), according to an audio statement.
> 
> The message, which has not been verified, was posted on Boko Haram's Twitter account and is believed to be by the group's leader, Abubakar Shekau.
> 
> ...




http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-31784538​


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2015)

DB008 said:


> *Nigeria's Boko Haram pledges allegiance to Islamic State*
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-31784538​





I think you're a bit behind on your readings.

There's also this Vlad the KGB Putin and his Russian hordes.


----------



## DB008 (9 March 2015)

luutzu said:


> I think you're a bit behind on your readings.



How so?




> There's also this Vlad the KGB Putin and his Russian hordes.



Go on...


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2015)

DB008 said:


> How so?
> 
> 
> 
> Go on...




Just in case you're behind the curve on our list of evil doers. 

Not sure how true it is but I heard discussions between Thomas Hartman [?] and Prof. Stephen Cohen that Obama recently said the three greatest threat to peace right now are "ISIS, RT..." and something else (not global warming or Ebola).

RT being some Russian funded cable news channel popping up all over the world. You already know ISIS.

So Putin and those Ruskies are about to get a lot more evil very soon.


----------



## DB008 (9 March 2015)

Maybe this lady is onto the right stuff?


----------



## Bintang (9 March 2015)

DB008 said:


> Maybe this lady is onto the right stuff?




Yep, she is 100% correct and for that reason will be 100% ignored.

_“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell_


----------



## DB008 (12 March 2015)

*ISIS sympathizer arrested after plotting to bomb U.S. consulate in Toronto: CBSA*​



> TORONTO ”” After landing at Toronto’s Pearson airport on April 3, 2013, Jahanzeb Malik told the border officer who questioned him he had been teaching in Libya. He told the Canadian Security Intelligence Service the same story.
> 
> But they apparently didn’t buy it because the RCMP’s national security unit in Toronto soon launched an undercover investigation that found he had been up to something far more sinister in the North African desert: attending a training camp.
> 
> ...






http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2015/03/11/isis-sympathizer-arrested-after-plotting-to-bomb-u-s-consulate-in-toronto-cbsa​


----------



## DB008 (12 March 2015)

*Australia's teen ISIS fighter leaves manifesto and reportedly blows himself up​*


> A young Australian Islamic State fighter, Jake Bilardi, has been identified by ISIS as having died in a coordinated suicide bombing attack in the Iraqi city of Ramadi on Wednesday.
> 
> In the capital of Iraq's embattled Anbar province, 13 suicide car bombs exploded almost simultaneously, according to the Associated Press. At least 10 people were killed and 30 wounded in the attack. ISIS said in an online statement that it used foreign fighters from Australia, Belgium, Syria and Uzbekistan to undertake the attack.
> 
> ...





http://mashable.com/2015/03/11/teen-australia-isis-fighter-suicide-bomb/​


----------



## DB008 (13 March 2015)

*Jewish leaders demand Islamic Hizb ut-Tahrir teacher be sued for anti-Semitic hate speech*​



> Sydney Jewish leaders are demanding the head of controversial Islamic group  Hizb ut-Tahrir be prosecuted under anti-discrimination laws for inciting hatred against Jewish people in a fiery speech last year.
> 
> Vic Alhadeff, chief executive of the NSW Jewish Board of Deputies, wrote to the NSW Anti-Discrimination Board on Monday, urging them to take legal action against radical Islamic leader Ismail al-Wahwah.
> 
> ...





http://www.smh.com.au/national/jewish-leaders-demand-islamic-hizb-uttahrir-teacher-be-sued-for-antisemitic-hate-speech-20150309-13zam8.html​


----------



## orr (18 March 2015)

DB008 said:


> *Australia's teen ISIS fighter leaves manifesto and reportedly blows himself up​*
> 
> 
> 
> http://mashable.com/2015/03/11/teen-australia-isis-fighter-suicide-bomb/​





The attached is a thoughtful 'conversation' to an article penned by 'M Devine in the 'Tele'(which I haven't read) on the motivations to radicalism.....to wit. Belgium population( vastly christian) 406; ISIS recruits 350 : Indonesia, all Mohammedans, population 250,000,000 (thats )million; ISIS recruits 70(thats like the yearly death toll from stubbed toes). ????????...
_....for those who wish to be a little more thoughtful, I spose'_

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lardi-was-radicalised-by-the-banality-of-life


----------



## DB008 (22 March 2015)

*Islamic State calls on backers to kill 100 U.S. military personnel*​



> (Reuters) - Islamic State has posted online what it says are the names, U.S. addresses and photos of 100 American military service members, and called upon its "brothers residing in America" to kill them.
> 
> The Pentagon said after the information was posted on the Internet that it was investigating the matter. "I can't confirm the validity of the information, but we are looking into it," a U.S. defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said on Saturday.
> 
> "We always encourage our personnel to exercise appropriate OPSEC (operations security) and force protection procedures," the official added.





http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/21/us-mideast-crisis-threat-idUSKBN0MH0QQ20150321?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews​


----------



## DB008 (22 March 2015)

*100 Throat-Slit Corpses Left By Boko Haram​*
*In what appears to be an execution site for the Islamist group, the partially mummified bodies were found beneath a bridge.*​


> Up to 100 bodies, many with their throats slit, have been found in a mass grave on the edge of a town in northeast Nigeria after it was freed from Boko Haram militants.
> 
> Soldiers from Chad and Niger who have liberated Damasak from the Islamist group said they discovered the bodies under a bridge on one of the main roads leading out of the town.
> 
> ...




http://news.sky.com/story/1449522/100-throat-slit-corpses-left-by-boko-haram​


----------



## DB008 (18 April 2015)

Shocking...



> *Five arrested in anti-terror raids across Melbourne​*
> FIVE men are in custody after police launched counter-terrorist raids across Melbourne in the early hours of this morning.
> 
> Seven search warrants and around 200 police officers were involved in the raids.
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/five-arrested-in-anti-terror-raids-across-melbourne/story-fnj4aog3-1227309142287​


----------



## noco (19 April 2015)

As I have stated on many occasions, we are now seeing the results of the stupidity of Rudd/Gillard for allowing 50,000 illegal immigrants in open borders, the majority of them MUSLIMS....

The number of terrorist who entered Australia in this method is unknown.

Is it any wonder we are seeing Australians starting to revolt against Islam and it can only get worse.

Gillard, the worst Fabian Prime Minister this country has ever seen has caused untold damage to our community through  her and Rudd's wreckless decision to open our borders.  


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...n_politicians_imported_this_terrorist_threat/


----------



## DB008 (20 April 2015)

*The Terror Strategist: Secret Files Reveal the Structure of Islamic State​*



> An Iraqi officer planned Islamic State's takeover in Syria and SPIEGEL has been given exclusive access to his papers. They portray an organization that, while seemingly driven by religious fanaticism, is actually coldly calculating.
> 
> 
> Until now, much of the information about IS has come from fighters who had defected and data sets from the IS internal administration seized in Baghdad. But none of this offered an explanation for the group's meteoric rise to prominence, before air strikes in the late summer of 2014 put a stop to its triumphal march.
> ...




http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/islamic-state-files-show-structure-of-islamist-terror-group-a-1029274.html​


----------



## Tisme (20 April 2015)

noco said:


> As I have stated on many occasions, we are now seeing the results of the stupidity of Rudd/Gillard for allowing 50,000 illegal immigrants in open borders, the majority of them MUSLIMS....




You should know by now that the majority must giveway to minority groups interests in Australia. Your attacks on the reproduction and nurse maids of terrorists is abhorrent to our new Australia where we teach anarchists a lesson by giving them sanctuary, money and a springboard to Nirvana with open gates for youth out of the country to conflict zones where they can thrill kill people as payback for being treated so poorly as a minority group here in multicultural ghetto Oz.


----------



## DB008 (1 May 2015)

Boston Bomb terror plot thwarted in Germany



> *Terror suspect in Hessen: The bomb Fund, the cycling race and the track search​*
> 
> Halil D. and his wife were planning a terror attack, possibly on the cycling classic in Frankfurt on May 1 - which go from investigators. The race was canceled and issued arrest warrant against the couple. Here is an overview to the status of investigations.
> 
> ...




http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/radrennen-in-hessen-ueberblick-zu-terrorermittlungen-gegen-halil-d-a-1031621.html​


----------



## DB008 (4 May 2015)

More from the 'Religion of Peace'.

Saw someone write this for a correct headline; "A contest for cartoon depictions of some guy named Mohammad, the inventor or Islam, in a Dallas suburb was put on lockdown Sunday night..."




> *2 suspects dead after gunfire outside Muhammad cartoon exhibit​​*
> GARLAND, Texas — Two suspects were killed after they opened fire Sunday in a parking lot outside a provocative contest for cartoon depictions of the Prophet Muhammad, authorities said.
> 
> Garland's city government issued a statement saying that as a Muhammad Art Exhibit event was coming to a close at the Curtis Culwell Center, "two males drove up to the front of the building in a car'' and started shooting at a security officer.
> ...




http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/03/at-least-2-shot-outside-muhammad-art-exhibit-in-texas/26849897/


----------



## DB008 (6 May 2015)

DB008 said:


> *2 suspects dead after gunfire outside Muhammad cartoon exhibit​*
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/03/at-least-2-shot-outside-muhammad-art-exhibit-in-texas/26849897/​






*Islamic State claims responsibility for attack at Texas anti-Muslim exhibition​*



> ISLAMIC State has taken responsibility for an attack outside an anti-Muslim event in Texas over the weekend, but the White House says it’s “too early” to link the terror group to the crime.
> 
> The suspected gunmen, Elton Simpson, 31, and Nadir Soofi, 34, wounded a security guard before being shot dead by police at an event showcasing cartoons mocking the Prophet Mohammed.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/islamic-state-claims-responsibility-for-attack-at-texas-anti-muslim-exhibition/story-fnh81jut-1227337888202​http://www.news.com.au/world/north-...uslim-exhibition/story-fnh81jut-1227337888202


----------



## DB008 (9 May 2015)

*High-level counter-terrorism operation under way in Melbourne's northern suburbs​*


> Improvised explosive devices have been found at a house in Melbourne's outer north after a high-level counter-terrorism raid on Friday afternoon.
> 
> The police bomb squad removed the devices from the Greenvale house and took them to a nearby reserve, before conducting a controlled detonation.
> 
> ...




http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/highlevel-counterterrorism-operation-under-way-in-melbournes-northern-suburbs-20150508-ggxcaw.html​


----------



## Tisme (10 May 2015)

DB008 said:


> *High-level counter-terrorism operation under way in Melbourne's northern suburbs​*




I have the solution: give the perps a one way ticket to Bali, pack some drugs in a bag for them and get the AFP to ring up the other end.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 May 2015)

Tisme said:


> I have the solution: give the perps a one way ticket to Bali, pack some drugs in a bag for them and get the AFP to ring up the other end.




Great idea


----------



## DB008 (15 May 2015)

*The US Consulate in Melbourne warns terror attack in Australia is ‘likely’​*



> THE US Consulate in Melbourne has warned it’s citizens in Victoria and around the country to be on high alert, declaring a terror attack on Australian soil was “likely”.
> 
> It’s the first time this century that the consulate has issued such a warning, and said it reflected the heightened security level of the Australian government.
> 
> ...





http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/the-us-consulate-in-melbourne-warns-terror-attack-in-australia-is-likely/story-fns0kb1g-1227355968136?from=public_rss​


----------



## MrBurns (15 May 2015)

DB008 said:


> *The US Consulate in Melbourne warns terror attack in Australia is ‘likely’​*http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/the-us-consulate-in-melbourne-warns-terror-attack-in-australia-is-likely/story-fns0kb1g-1227355968136?from=public_rss​




I'd say it's very likely, there are a lot of kids who are bored and see no future and this appeals.

What they should be told is if they fight for ISIS they wont be on the front line and get any "glory" unless they speak the language and have battle experience.

They'll be used as canon fodder.


----------



## luutzu (15 May 2015)

DB008 said:


> *The US Consulate in Melbourne warns terror attack in Australia is ‘likely’​*
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/the-us-consulate-in-melbourne-warns-terror-attack-in-australia-is-likely/story-fns0kb1g-1227355968136?from=public_rss​





Is that why the B-2 bomber is being, not being, sent here?

The average yank probably goes - ah man, they got killer spiders, rattlesnakes, stingrays, sharks, crocs... all over the place... now they got terrorists roaming around in the mix too?


----------



## DB008 (24 June 2015)

*ISIS unveils horrible new ways to murder in new execution video​*


> THEY’VE burned prisoners alive, tossed gay men from towers, beheaded journalists and stoned women to death, filming each excruciating death and sharing the footage with the world.
> 
> If you’re thinking it’s been a while between snuff movies it’s because the terror group has been racking its collective psychopathic brain trying to come up with new ways to re-sensitise us to horror.
> 
> Last night, the Ninevah branch of Islamic State released a seven-minute video in which they murdered 16 people in three terrible new ways: immolation by rocket launcher, drowning while locked in a cage and decapitation via a daisy chain of explosive-studded necklaces.





http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/isis-unveils-horrible-new-ways-to-murder-in-new-execution-video/story-fnh81ifq-1227413305601​


----------



## DB008 (26 June 2015)

*Beheading And Explosion At French Factory​*


> Attackers carrying Islamist flags ram a car into gas canisters at the building, setting off an explosion.
> 
> A man has been decapitated by attackers brandishing Islamist flags at a French factory near Grenoble.
> 
> ...




http://news.sky.com/story/1508786/beheading-and-explosion-at-french-factory​


----------



## Wysiwyg (26 June 2015)

The suicide boys are active again. The U.S. have a serious issue with Hillary's emails and Tonald Drump running for next Pres. so no time to worry about silly suicide scum. Another reality snap coming up. They still can't work out why their presence, influence and interference in the world is so hated.


----------



## chiff (27 June 2015)

little reported is what is happening in Yemen.The US is supporting the Saudis in attacks on one side in the historical sectarian conflict in Yemen.Supporting the Saudi interference logistically and making its own drone attacks.The US has paid compensation to at least four western civilians killed by drone strikes.The locals ,of course,get nothing -but misery.    The Saudis,probably one of the biggest dog countries in the world, must have real influence with the US.
How to win friends and influence people.


----------



## DB008 (28 June 2015)

*Attack on hotels in Tunisia kills dozens​*


> MORE chilling images have emerged of the Islamic State gunman, who heartlessly laughed as he murdered at least 38 sunbathing tourists in Tunisia.
> 
> Aby Yahya al-Qayrawani ”” the jihadi name for 23-year-old Seifeddine Rezgui, was seen walking down the beach with his Kalashnikov, a weapon which had been concealed inside a beach umbrella, before he opened fire.
> 
> He was walking away from the attack with a grenade in his other hand.






> Britain said that at least 15 of its citizens were killed in Friday’s gun assault in the popular resort of Port el Kantaoui and that the number “may well rise”.






http://www.news.com.au/world/attack-on-hotels-in-tunisia-kills-dozens/story-fndir2ev-1227417128300​


----------



## DB008 (22 August 2015)

*France train shooting: Americans who overpowered gunman 
'heroes'​*



> Three American men are being hailed as heroes for overpowering a heavily-armed gunman on a train in northern France.
> 
> The incident happened on the high-speed Thalys service near Arras, and the attacker was arrested at Arras station.
> 
> ...





http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34023361​


----------



## DB008 (14 September 2015)

*Al Qaeda chief urges lone wolf attacks, militant unity*​



> Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahri called on young Muslim men in the United States and other Western countries to carry out attacks inside there and urged greater unity between militants.
> 
> "I call on all Muslims who can harm the countries of the crusader coalition not to hesitate. We must now focus on moving the war to the heart of the homes and cities of the crusader West and specifically America," he said in an audio recording posted online on Sunday, referring to nations making up the Western-led coalition in Iraq and Syria.
> 
> ...





http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/09/13/uk-mideast-zawahri-idUKKCN0RD0EK20150913​


----------



## luutzu (14 September 2015)

DB008 said:


> *Al Qaeda chief urges lone wolf attacks, militant unity*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What were you expecting him to say? 
Study hard brothers, find a nice girl, marry her and have many children and raise them well?


----------



## DB008 (19 September 2015)

*Islamic extremist shot dead in Berlin after stabbing police officer*​



> An Islamic extremist has been killed by police in the German capital of Berlin after he stabbed an officer in an apparent terror attack.
> 
> The 41-year-old Iraqi citizen, identified only as Rafik Y, was shot dead by police after they responded to calls of a man wielding a knife.
> 
> ...




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/berlin-terrorist-attack-police-stabbed-islamic-extremist-10506370.html​


----------



## qldfrog (20 September 2015)

Can not be:
no, no no she was a 5y old syrian orphan refugee , with a PHD in engineering, killed by a racist white policeman...
I know I watch the news..
Better laught than cry; at least, the policewoman should be able to make it and he will not


----------



## noco (30 September 2015)

The 100 year Jihad war began 1400 years ago and is still going on.

*Subject: ARE WE THE STUPID ONES?


Food for Thought
The war started in the 7th century and lasted through the 17th. 
I would contend it never stopped but historically the facts
below are correct.  This is why I choke when I hear someone
say we will defeat or contain these Islamic terrorists in a few
years or even 30 years as recently stated by Leon Panetta.


If the latest batch of murders, beheadings, and killing of
innocent Christians has shocked you, maybe you should
read this compilation of historical facts about the hatred
of Muslims.

 WE, THE STUPID
This is all factually (and historically) correct - and verifiable:
In 732 AD the Muslim Army which was moving on Paris
was defeated and turned back at Tours, France, by Charles
Martell. In 1571 AD the Muslim Army/ Navy was defeated
by the Italians and Austrians as they tried to cross the
Mediterranean to attack southern Europe in the Battle of
Lapanto.

 In 1683 AD the Turkish Muslim Army, attacking Eastern
Europe, was finally defeated in the Battle of Vienna by
German and Polish Christian Armies.


...this crap has been going on for 1,400 years and half of
the politicians don't even know it.


If these battles had not been won we might be speaking
Arabic and Christianity could be non-existent; Judaism
certainly would be... And let us not forget that Hitler was
an admirer of Islam and that the Mufti of Jerusalem was
Hitler's guest in Berlin and raised Bosnian Muslim SS
Divisions: the 13th and 21st Waffen SS Divisions who
killed Jews, Russians, Gypsies, and any other "subhumans".
Reflecting:
A lot of Canadian & Americans have become so insulated
from reality that they imagine that America can suffer defeat
without any inconvenience to themselves.
Pause a moment, reflect back. These events are actual events
from history. They really happened!  Do you remember?
1. In 1968, Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male.
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped
     and massacred by Muslim males.
3. In 1972 a Pan Am 747 was hijacked and eventually diverted
     to Cairo where a fuse was lit on final approach. It was blown
      up shortly after landing by Muslim males.
4. In 1973 a Pan Am 707 was destroyed in Rome, with 33
    people killed, when it was attacked with grenades by Muslim males.

5. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim males.
6. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in
    Lebanon by Muslim males.
7. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by
     Muslim males.
8. In 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70
     year old American passenger was murdered and thrown
     overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim males.
9. In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US
     Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by
     Muslim males.

 10. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim males.

 11. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time
       by Muslim males.
12. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were
       bombed by Muslim males.
13. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used
       as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of 
       the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and
       the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.
       Thousands of people were killed by Muslim males.
14. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan
      against Muslim males.
15. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and beheaded
      by---you guessed it was a Muslim male. 
      (Plus two other American journalists were just beheaded)

 16. In 2013, Boston Marathon Bombing 4 Innocent people
       including a child killed, 264 injured by Muslim males.
        In 2014 Canada was attacked  in QuÃ©bec and Ottawa...

 No, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?

 So, to ensure we Canadian & Americans never offend anyone,
particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners
will no longer be allowed to profile certain people.
                   So, ask yourself "Just how stupid are we???"
Absolutely No Profiling!
They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women,
little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret
agents who are members of the President's security detail,
85-year old, Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of
Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave
Muslim Males, alone lest they be guilty of profiling.
Ask yourself "Just how stupid are we?"
Have the Canadian & American people completely lost
their minds or just their Power of Reason???


Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the
Gloria Alreds and other stupid attorneys, along with
Federal Justices, that want to thwart common sense,
feel ashamed of themselves -- if they have any such sense.
As the writer of the award winning story 'Forrest Gump' s
or aptly put it, 'Stupid Is As Stupid Does'.
Each opportunity that you have to send this to a friend or
media outlet... Do It! OR SIT BACK, JUST KEEP GRIPING,
AND DO NOTHING.










*


----------



## luutzu (1 October 2015)

Russia just launched airstrikes in Syria. The Taliban just retake a city in Afghanistan. Nothing is happening in Yemen.

Is this still Jihad or the new cold war?


----------



## Tisme (1 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Russia just launched airstrikes in Syria. The Taliban just retake a city in Afghanistan. Nothing is happening in Yemen.
> 
> Is this still Jihad or the new cold war?




Yeah have been listening to the drivel of journos over the last few days taking cracks at Obama for not put troops on ground, which is what the USSR was going to do and now we find out the USSR has no intention of putting boots on ground.


----------



## DB008 (3 October 2015)

*Parramatta gunman identified: Teen fired multiple shots outside police HQ on Charles St​*


> Police believe Sydney shooting is ‘linked to terrorism’
> Gunman was 15-year-old Farad Jabar Khalil Mohammad of Iraqi-Kurdish background, from Iran
> He visited a mosque ahead of the shooting
> Victim has been identified as Curtis Cheng
> Australians urged to go about their day normally




http://www.news.com.au/national/cri...hq-on-charles-st/story-fns0kb1g-1227554824011​


----------



## noco (4 October 2015)

Thought this was interesting that some people are starting to wake up to the numbers threat.  I think this is called “ self preservation”?? 




*The first countries to ban Islam: See how the world is  acting fast on the threat posed by Islam. 

Cuba rejects plans for first mosque.

The African nation of Angola has officially become the first country to ban Islam.

Record number of Muslims deported from Norway at last as a way of fighting crime.

Japan is the only nation that does not give citizenship to Muslims.

In Germany alone in the last year there were 81 attacks targeting mosques.

Austrian police arrested 13 men targeting suspected jihad recruiters.

A Chinese court sends 22 Muslim Imams to jail for 5 to 16 years for Spreading hatred.  China has executed eight Jihadists; China campaigns against Separatism (ie disallowing islamists to have their own separate state). Muslim prayers banned in government  buildings and schools in Xinjiang (Western China).

British Home Secretary prepares to introduce 'Anti-social Behaviour Order' for extremists and strip dual nationals of their Citizenship.

Czech Republic doesn't want Islam in their country.

Alabama - A new controversial amendment that will ban the recognition of "foreign laws which would include sharia law".

The Polish Defense League issues a warning to Muslims.   16 States Have All  Introduced Legislation to Ban Shariah Law.

Some Muslims in Northern Ireland have announced plans to leave the Country to avoid anti-Islamic violence. The announcement comes after an attack on Muslims in the city of Belfast, when crazed rioters were provoked.

North Carolina Bans Islamic "Sharia Law" in the State.

Dutch MP calls for removal of all mosques in Netherlands. Member of Dutch Parliament:  "We want to clean Netherlands of  Islam".  Dutch MP Machiel De Graaf spoke on behalf of the Party for Freedom when he said, "All mosques in the Netherlands should be shut down.  Without Islam, The Netherlands would be a wonderful country." 

Please share this e-mail if you think it is worth it. 
*


----------



## noco (4 October 2015)

We have Australian citizens and we have a defence force......We have Muslims in Australia and we have the Muslim army of radicals 

Do we really need a an Islamic school here to teach the radicals to kill homosexuals, apostates ( those who renounce their former belief)...I note no mention was made of Christians and infidels but you can bet your boots they would secretly be included. 

There is trouble with a Capital T" on the way in Australia and it is time to clamp down on the preachers of violence...What do we do?.....What for another disaster to happen when more innocent people get killed.

I would not be surprised to see a group of anti Muslims taking things into their own hands.

Read the comments attached this link.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...554797893?sv=f029b354cb480bd290f94d0f8b09c4eb

*In Islamic theology, the purpose of da’wah is to invite Muslims and non-Muslims to understand the worship of Allah.

Indian “televangelist” Dr Naik has been banned from countries including Britain, Canada and parts of India for his rhetorical support for terrorist leader Osama bin Laden.

He has recommended capital punishment for homosexuals and apostates and has been quoted saying “every Muslim should be a terrorist” and asserting men’s “rights” to beat their wives, as long as they do it lightly, so as not to leave a mark.

Sheik Deedat, who died in 2005, was a South African Muslim missionary of Indian descent whose books have been banned from sale in France since 1994 for being “violently anti-Western, anti-Semitic and inciting to racial hate.”

His da’wah centre was heavily financed by the bin Laden family and Deedat praised Osama bin Laden after meeting him.

Deakin corporate communications director Sarah Dolan yesterday said there were no clear grounds to cancel the event at the last minute.

“Nevertheless, we will closely watch how the group represent and conduct themselves,” she said.

“As a university we are committed to the fair and open *exchange of ideas, but we draw the line not just at anyone promoting or justifying violent extremism but also at any malicious expression of exclusivism intended to encourage people to view others in a way that is disrespectful or hateful.”*


----------



## DB008 (5 October 2015)

After what happened in Parramatta - have a look at what is happening in Melbourne.

*Melbourne university hosts extremist Muslim group in the wake of Sydney shooting​*


> AN EXTREMIST Muslim group held a conference at a Melbourne university over the weekend as the country reels from the shooting of a NSW police worker by a radicalised teenager.
> 
> Just a day after Friday’s fatal shooting, a controversial conference organised by fundamentalist Islamic group, the Islamic Research and Educational Academy, was held at Deakin University, The Australian reports.
> 
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/melbourne-university-hosts-extremist-muslim-group-in-the-wake-of-sydney-shooting/story-fnj3rq0y-1227556601428​
Hold on.

Banned in Britain, Canada and parts of India ? ? ? And then we let this idiot in to hold a conference? What is going on? ASIO asleep at the wheel?


----------



## Tink (5 October 2015)

I posted that here, just to show what a pack of hypocrites they are....
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/f...=30244&page=17&p=885605&viewfull=1#post885605

The ruling elites and their student councils of political correctness.
When they stop a Christian coming in because the femanazis don't want him, but are happy to allow radical muslims in for their conferences........

Free speech, only on their terms.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 October 2015)

DB008 said:


> After what happened in Parramatta - have a look at what is happening in Melbourne.
> 
> *Melbourne university hosts extremist Muslim group in the wake of Sydney shooting​*
> 
> ...




Absolute lunacy letting that person in.

Someone at that University should be sacked.


----------



## noco (5 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolute lunacy letting that person in.
> 
> Someone at that University should be sacked.




I am have a suspicion that University guy is a Fabian......The universities are full of them in an effort to brain wash those naive students.


----------



## dutchie (5 October 2015)

They wonder where a 15 year old would get a gun .....

From a political party of course.


----------



## noco (5 October 2015)

Is Malcolm Turnbull playing with fire with his association with the UN on Human Rights?

Jennifer Oriel has presented some facts about the UN which I have personally been suspicious about and  have mentioned on previous occasions on the ASF....The UN want World government and are embracing Islam and communism together ......Bank-Ki-Moon is regarded as a GREENIE who is very far to the left as can be......This man even defended the lies told by our Human Rights Commisioner Gillian Triggs.......

Where is the UN Human Rights while such killings are being carried out by those barbarians from ISIS......I watched Four Corners tonight whereby there is a secret group risking their lives to save women and  girls as young as of 9 years of age from ISIS.....The stories they told were unbelievable......One young girl of no more than 16 was Gang raped up to 16 times in one day.

Where is the UN Human Rights?....They are turning a blind to it......They are as useless as a toothless tiger and Tunrbull seems to be going along with them.

I am beginning to wonder whether the right decision was made to dump Abbott.





http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...th-with-ideology/story-e6frg6zo-1227556738266

*In his first month as Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull’s most decisive actions have been in cultural and international relations. His government has signed Australia up to the UN’s 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development, announced a bid for membership of the Security Council and declared candidacy for a seat on the Human Rights Council.

The multilateral moves have taken a nation accustomed to Tony Abbott’s more hawkish foreign policy by surprise. While the renewal of soft power relations with the UN may be viewed favourably, Australia’s new era of cosmopolitanism should be tempered by political realism.

Even ardent advocates of the classical liberal ideals that inspired the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are beginning to recognise there is something rotten in the heart of the UN. Since the turn of the century, it has been beset by corruption and a culture of profligacy which would likely elicit strong criticism were the organisation a private enterprise. But it is the emerging culture of dishonesty at the UN which poses the greatest threat to its legitimacy as an independent and trustworthy arbiter of human rights and justice worldwide.

Dishonesty and double standards mark the rise of the UN in the realm of 21st-century human rights. In Australia, Europe, Canada and the US, human rights commissions have undermined evidentiary standards by supplanting empirical truth with emotionalism, campaigned against border integrity, criticised national security policy, engaged in judicial activism and sought to censor freethinkers. They have been unrelenting in the pursuit of a neo-Marxist social agenda that respects neither parliamentary process nor the views of citizens who pay their wages.

The most pressing problem with UN human rights advocates, however, is their use of dishonesty to achieve political ends. When *attorney-general George Brandis rightly criticised Australian Hu*man Rights Commission president Gillian Triggs for fibbing about the presence of armed guards at immigrant processing centres, he was accused of violating her human rights.

Rather than correcting Triggs’s misrepresentation of the truth, the UN defended it.

Michel Forst, the UN special rapporteur on human rights defenders, asked the government to explain its actions while condemning its alleged violation of Triggs’s rights. The violation of truth was not raised as a matter of vital interest. While that may offend our moral sensibilities, it is consistent with UN values.

The UN has created a new value system where the truth is subordinated to human rights activism. For example, in the report Human Rights Defenders, it states that the “critical test” of a human rights defender is not to be correct — to base their case on objective and validated truth — but to pursue rights. Human rights have been transformed into a master ideology that transcends truth.

As history has shown, the supersession of objective truth with political ideology produces big lies. The big lie of the modern age is that secure-border policy produces more harm to humankind than it prevents. The UN is a powerful purveyor of the lie that effectively protects people-smugglers and frequently proves lethal to their human cargo.

In the organisation’s latest attack on Australia’s highly successful secure-border policy, UN migrant rights rapporteur Francois Crepeau whipped up a media storm on the false claim he was denied adequate access to immigration centres.

The leftist media reported Crepeau’s hysterical claims as though they constituted fact. Nowhere was his history of criticising conservative government policy reported. His recent attack describing defence of the continuous historical tradition of British culture as “bull****” went unremarked. No one questioned his ability to conduct an impartial investigation into Australia’s immigration processing centres given he is one of only eight council members of the Global Detention Project, an activist group highly critical of such centres.

The Turnbull government passed its first test on border security by refusing to submit to Crepeau’s fantastical claims. But it faces an uphill battle to convince the electorate that deeper engagement with the UN is in the national interest and will produce return on inv*estment.


----------



## Tisme (7 October 2015)

noco said:


> I am beginning to wonder whether the right decision was made to dump Abbott.




I seem to recall you were never a fan on Malcolm, preferring Scott Morrison instead?

I'm also guessing you aren't a fan of importing 'those" kind of brainwashed ghetto people?


----------



## Tisme (7 October 2015)

dutchie said:


> They wonder where a 15 year old would get a gun .....




Shorten/Rudd/Gillard/Flannery/Triggs/Credlin


----------



## noco (7 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> I seem to recall you were never a fan on Malcolm, preferring Scott Morrison instead?
> 
> I'm also guessing you aren't a fan of importing 'those" kind of brainwashed ghetto people?




And I am still no fan of Tutnbull, although there are lot out there who are and including the ABC for some reason..


----------



## Tisme (7 October 2015)

noco said:


> And I am still no fan of Tutnbull, although there are lot out there who are and including the ABC for some reason..




Maybe Turnbull will surprise both of us and we end up giving him some +ve cudos.

I want to see this govt give up the fear tactics /class division and encourage get up and go Australia 1980/90s


----------



## Tisme (7 October 2015)

Alf Garnett would feel vindicated:



London woman charged after alleged #killallwhitemen tweet


----------



## SirRumpole (7 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Alf Garnett would feel vindicated:
> 
> 
> 
> London woman charged after alleged #killallwhitemen tweet




She needs to be chained to a post through her nose ring.


----------



## DB008 (7 October 2015)

*Five men arrested in terror raids across Sydney following Parramatta shooting​*



> SYDNEY extremists are believed to have recruited the teenage gunman to carry out Friday’s attack because they believed they were under too much surveillance to do it themselves.
> 
> According to Fairfax media, schoolboy Farhad Jabar, 15, met with several men at Parramatta mosque hours before he shot and killed police accountant Curtis Cheng.
> 
> ...





http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/five-men-arrested-in-terror-raids-across-sydney-following-parramatta-shooting/story-fns0kb1g-1227559808363​
Cancel citizenships and deport. Time to harden up and get scum like this out of our country.


----------



## luutzu (8 October 2015)

DB008 said:


> *Five men arrested in terror raids across Sydney following Parramatta shooting​*
> http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/five-men-arrested-in-terror-raids-across-sydney-following-parramatta-shooting/story-fns0kb1g-1227559808363​
> Cancel citizenships and deport. Time to harden up and get scum like this out of our country.




When other criminals and scums get caught, charged, found guilty... do we also deport them all or only the Muslim ones? Or just the ethnic ones? Or do we just assume anyone whom the authority want to talk to is automatically guilty?

Calm down before you pop a vain man. Or before you go psycho and other real Australians will have to deport you too.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

NSW school prayer audit completed amid concerns of extremist Islamic preaching



> An audit of prayer groups in New South Wales' public schools has now been completed and its results are being considered by the State Government, amid concerns of extremist Islamic preaching.
> 
> Premier Mike Baird announced the audit in July after it was reported that a student at Epping Boys High in Sydney may have preached extremist interpretations of Islam during lunchtime prayer sessions.
> 
> ...



More at

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-08/audit-of-prayer-groups-in-nsw-schools-completed/6836042

Looks like the Brits are getting serious about this too:

British prime minister David Cameron vows to shut down Islamic schools that teach hate



> British prime minister David Cameron says he will introduce inspections for Islamic schools and will shut down those that teach hate.
> 
> In a speech to the Conservative Party annual conference in Manchester, Mr Cameron vowed to keep Britain safe by targeting Islamic State terrorists in Syria and cracking down on religious schools that radicalise students.
> 
> ...




More at
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-08/cameron-vows-to-shut-down-schools-that-teach-hate/6835830


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## Tisme (8 October 2015)

1. Defund Islamic schools = simple = starve the nurseries = force them out of the 7th century into the light
2. Lock up adults for participating in child bride activities, parents, community leaders, 
3. lock up any of them that wilfully disobey the laws that conflict with their religion
4. enforce welfare rules = no demonstrable intention to do real work no money for indolence
5. hit 'em up with sedition charges 
6. etc


all the stuff us baby boomers and silent gens were scared of happening if we tried to be a lone wolf or pack.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> 1. Defund Islamic schools = simple = starve the nurseries = force them out of the 7th century into the light
> 2. Lock up adults for participating in child bride activities, parents, community leaders,
> 3. lock up any of them that wilfully disobey the laws that conflict with their religion
> 4. enforce welfare rules = no demonstrable intention to do real work no money for indolence
> ...




Re no 4.

Most Muslims have a lot of children so they can live on child welfare payments and Family Tax benefits.

I have a problem helping to fund other people's children, Muslim or not.

Maybe fund the first two, after that they are on their own.


----------



## sinner (8 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> 1. Defund Islamic schools = simple = starve the nurseries = force them out of the 7th century into the light




Too bad that our friends the Saudis are the ones who fund the most extreme Islamic schools all over the world.

Maybe we should point that finger? Oh wait, sorry, we are in bed with them so they get a free pass to keep funding Wahhabism globally.



> 2. Lock up adults for participating in child bride activities, parents, community leaders,




Best start with the Indians, Pakistanis and other Asian cultures which do this, considering the volume delta.



> 3. lock up any of them that wilfully disobey the laws that conflict with their religion




Um...so lock up people who disobey the law? Don't we already? Somebody (aside from the rich) getting a free pass that I missed?



> 4. enforce welfare rules = no demonstrable intention to do real work no money for indolence




We already do this.



> 5. hit 'em up with sedition charges




Sedition laws passed post 9/11 by the Howard Government and supported by the states (after an initial period of surprising nondumbassery on the part of the states) already allow charges of sedition to be brought up under extremely vague and broad conditions that have been criticised by every law expert with two brain cells to rub together.



> Most Muslims have a lot of children so they can live on child welfare payments and Family Tax benefits.




I guess this kind of idiotic racism is to be expected in a thread titled "Has the 100 year Jihad begun"


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> I guess this kind of idiotic racism is to be expected in a thread titled "Has the 100 year Jihad begun"




Islam is not a race, idiot.


----------



## sinner (8 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Islam is not a race, idiot.




oh wow you completely skewered me with that brilliant thinking.

wait, wait, anti-Islam bigotry is actually racism, I forgot.

Google "islam is not a race" to catch up on the numerous thorough debunkings of your idiotic racism.

You're not fooling anyone, when you say Muslim we all know you mean any Arab and not Indonesian Muslim or Chinese Muslim or Iranian Muslim or Nigerian Muslim.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> You're not fooling anyone, when you say Muslim we all know you mean any Arab and not Indonesian Muslim or Chinese Muslim or Iranian Muslim or Nigerian Muslim.




So you are a mind reader now are you ?

I mean anyone who is deluded by this poisonous ideology wherever they come from.


----------



## sinner (8 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> So you are a mind reader now are you ?
> 
> I mean anyone who is deluded by this poisonous ideology wherever they come from.




hah so you're stating (with a straight face) that people of different races, sects and tribes are all consistently having kids to rort welfare? Sunni, Shia alike?

Got a bar of evidence to back up this "claim"?

Won't hold my breath.


----------



## qldfrog (8 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Don't know about American airport security, but two of of the last three times I left Australia, I was "randomly" picked out for a more thorough security checks like analysing my bag for explosives and asking in very slow English what country I am from and where... am.... i ... go... ing.



Sorry to top you out of your pole position Luutzu but as a white, glass wearing  40y male, I used to be tested for drug/explosive at every check point in Oz airport I was going thru
something like 8 times out of 10 or something like this
last week was most recent;
They must guess I was not born in Oz.....
If I were muslim or non white male I would raise a discrimination fuss!!
actually, this is maybe why I am checked so often, because I will not raise a fuss
and for info, the only time I triggered something was when back from a mine (explosive traces)!!!
I am also a non drug user


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## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Sorry to top you out of your pole position Luutzu but as a white, glass wearing  40y male, I used to be tested for drug/explosive at every check point in Oz airport I was going thru
> something like 8 times out of 10 or something like this
> last week was most recent;
> They must guess I was not born in Oz.....
> ...




I travel very rarely but I was pulled out at Tullamarine at random for one of those body detector checks.

It was a pretty slow day and probably the lady had to make her quota.


----------



## Knobby22 (8 October 2015)

I've been pulled up twice at Adelaide this year. Never been stopped before.

I am fair skinned, brown hair, freckles, bit like a grown up Sonny Hammond from Skippy.
Maybe they are trying to not racially profile there.


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## Gringotts Bank (8 October 2015)

It's interesting watching security guys check queues of people at airports. 

I remember observing an instance where they were doing random checks along the queue.  They stopped a young family who were blonde haired, wealthy and pleasant looking.  Seriously... would you bother?  Ever?    Hilarious.

Meanwhile they decided *not *to random check the dark skinned, young guy with a beard.  They were so concerned about being politically correct that they decided to investigate the zero-risk possibility and leave the higher risk possibility unchecked.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> I remember observing an instance where they were doing random checks along the queue.  They stopped a young family who were blonde haired, wealthy and pleasant looking.  Seriously... would you bother?  Ever?    Hilarious.




Hey, where is your paranoia ? That blond, white skinned stuff is just a front. A few wigs, a coat of UV cream and the terrorists are in !


----------



## Gringotts Bank (8 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Hey, where is your paranoia ? That blond, white skinned stuff is just a front. A few wigs, a coat of UV cream and the terrorists are in !




Terrorists can be white, but they won't be wealthy, good-looking and have happy, well-behaved young kids.  There's not even a remote possibility.  

It made me wonder how they do the training.  For example, I'd suggest bypassing any group of people talking amongst themselves.  Suspects are not going to be chatty and open.  They are going to be running through possible scenarios in their head, so anyone with an absent-minded expression would by high on the list of people to check.  Lack of smiling when checking in luggage would also make me investigate.  Terrorists don't smile... basic stuff.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Lack of smiling when checking in luggage would also make me investigate.  Terrorists don't smile... basic stuff.




Good thoughts there.

Crack a few Muhammed jokes and see who laughs and who doesn't...


----------



## Tisme (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> Too bad that our friends the Saudis are the ones who fund the most extreme Islamic schools all over the world.
> 
> Maybe we should point that finger? Oh wait, sorry, we are in bed with them so they get a free pass to keep funding Wahhabism globally.
> 
> ...




I'm guessing that was one of those pipe, slippers, rose coloured glasses and superior intellect type replies   You lost my admiration of your adroit perspicacity when you resorted to underhanded abuse at Rumpole's input..... reminiscent of schoolyard mud slinging

My post still stands based on the lack of application of points mentioned; there's a difference between gunna and doin'.


----------



## Tisme (8 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Sorry to top you out of your pole position Luutzu but as a white, glass wearing  40y male, I used to be tested for drug/explosive at every check point in Oz airport I was going thru
> something like 8 times out of 10 or something like this
> last week was most recent;
> They must guess I was not born in Oz.....
> ...




Yep it's a competition between my (real) blond haired, blue eyed daughter and me to see who gets pinged with the rod.

In the USA they parade my name on the screen above the departure gate, which means they are checking through the database to see if I'm going to do bad things.

I'm thinking of getting some Roman sandals, a thobe and dishdash so they will leave me alone.


----------



## Tisme (8 October 2015)

Stage 1:

http://articles.economictimes.india...et-china-national-tourism-administration-cnta



> China has made a strong bid to tap the USD 600 billion Muslim tourism market by showcasing the rich culture of its Muslim minorities in two provinces, including the restive Xinjiang.





Stage 2:

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2013/...muslims-for-allegedly-spreading-jihad-online/



> The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, home to Uyghur Muslims, has punished 256 people for spreading online rumors that jeopardized social stability, and arrested another 139 for “spreading religious extremism, including jihad.”




Stage 3:

http://shoebat.com/2014/06/27/chine...ic-violence-take-13-muslim-jihadists-execute/



> China executed 13 people today for “terrorist attacks” in the far western region of Xinjiang, state media said, while a further three were sentenced to death for staging a lethal attack in Tiananmen Square in Beijing.


----------



## sinner (8 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> My post still stands based on the lack of application of points mentioned; there's a difference between gunna and doin'.




Evidence please! You claim lack of application, 

You want to defund the Islamic schools but who actually funds them? Rich Wahhabist Saudis, Qataris, Emiratis, by and large. Our supposed friends in the Arab world. They would be defunded in a second if we had our priorities straight. Instead we appoint them to run the UN Human Rights Council.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...n-secret-deal-over-human-rights-council-place

Is there *any* evidence that we don't prosecute men who marry off their children? I mean how do you even know about this aside from state prosecutions that make the news? The last set of idiots I heard about this all got done. The father, the supposed husband and the idiotic Imam. 

Busted bein' a moron http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ducting-child-marriage-cops-article-1.1610185

Take a look at this to see the extent of child marriage in our country, yet you only seem concerned about the Muslims who do this, instead of being keen to tackle proportionally to volume by country. There's a word for that kind of mentality, that word is bigot.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...rried-every-year/story-fnet09y4-1226987689946

We prosecute all people who disobey any law, it really doesn't matter if it conflicts with your religion or not! I challenge any claim to the contrary to please put up some supporting evidence. 

Actually, it'd be good if you could start by simply giving an example of a law which supposedly conflicts with Islam (you know, that umbrella term for many disparate sects and tribes that is not actually the demonic-cult-for-brown-people you're making it out to be), my guess is that anything you find would also conflict with the Talmud or Pentateuch. That's the funny thing about the Koran, if you've read the Bible or Talmud, a bunch of bits are pretty familiar. 

You also claim that Centrelink funds the indolent without providing a single shred of evidence. One has to wonder if you have ever been to Centrelink, certainly amongst those I know unlucky enough to be unemployed it was not a walk amongst the roses to get a cent, regardless of their previous economic contribution.

Finally you seem to imply that there is no application of the sedition law...even though as I stated it is broad and vague, easily used by any law enforcement or intelligence agency that has cause to do so. Here's a summary so you can catch up on what those laws entail.

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/human-rights-guide-australias-counter-terrorism-laws#3_5

It seems obvious to me that if there was even a speck of seditious activity, those acting so would be nailed to the wall. Perhaps what you think is seditious is not, not even under Howard era laws passed under the grips of the feverish fear of a decade ago?



> there's a difference between gunna and doin'.




When are ya gunna provide some evidence for yer claims.



> reminiscent of schoolyard mud slinging




I stand by my claim and challenge for anyone to deconstruct it: the claim that "most Muslims" are having lots of kids to rort welfare is nothing short of idiotic racism.

As for your comments on the Uighurs, try a read of this to get some on the ground context

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2014/s4097689.htm

which was preceded by this

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ndent-program-on-uighurs-20140930-10nx6q.html


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

> It seems obvious to me that if there was even a speck of seditious activity, those acting so would be nailed to the wall. Perhaps what you think is seditious is not, not even under Howard era laws passed under the grips of the feverish fear of a decade ago?




It's not that obvious to me.

Charge one Imam and risk riots on the streets ?

A brave government would charge a hate preacher but I'm not sure that we have a government that brave.

What happened to the 15 year old kid that was preaching jihad at school ? Who was teaching him and were they charged ?


----------



## sinner (8 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not that obvious to me.
> 
> Charge one Imam and risk riots on the streets ?
> 
> A brave government would charge a hate preacher but I'm not sure that we have a government that brave.




Sorry Rumpy! Still waiting on evidence from your previous claim before we get to this one.



> What happened to the 15 year old kid that was preaching jihad at school ? Who was teaching him and were they charged ?




Are you talking about the kid in the article that you pasted above? The one where a single report of "preaching jihad at lunchtime" triggered a statewide audit of prayer groups at every single school?


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> Are you talking about the kid in the article that you pasted above? The one where a single report of "preaching jihad at lunchtime" triggered a statewide audit of prayer groups at every single school?




Do you have a problem with an audit ?


----------



## sinner (8 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you have a problem with an audit ?




The point is that you're claiming we can't prosecute haters, meanwhile in reality allegations of a single instance of hate speech have triggered a statewide audit. Hardly meshes with the picture you attempt to paint. And if there was an argument to be made about proportionate response one wonders which side of proportionate a statewide audit is...

Feel free to provide some evidence for your claim that most Muslims have lots of kids to rort welfare anytime though.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

sinner said:


> Feel free to provide some evidence for your claim that most Muslims have lots of kids to rort welfare anytime though.




My actual statement was this



			
				rumpole said:
			
		

> Most Muslims have a lot of children so they *can* live on child welfare payments and Family Tax benefits.




Note I didn't say that they *do* have a lot of children in order to live on benefits.

Most religious types have a lot of children due to their commandments of "go forth and multiply" , including Catholics and Jews, the point I'm making is that the rest of us subsidise this indulgence.

With a deficit of 40bn pa something has to go, and I reckon family tax benefits should be on the list as having children is a choice compared to other things like disability and getting old.


----------



## sinner (8 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Charge one Imam and risk riots on the streets ?




Pictures of NSW Police in 2012 Hyde Park cowering in terror over the prospect of a riot. Oops wait, no this is the photo of them kicking the **** out of a tiny handful of poor, uneducated young males.





Hmm..."poor, uneducated young males" ...that rings a bell...Cronulla..something...Redfern something...







It's almost as if being a marginalised youth with no opportunity has something to do with riots in Sydney, and nothing to do with religion at all! But who knows what to make of photographic historical evidence, it's probably all Islams fault.


----------



## sinner (8 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Note I didn't say that they *do* have a lot of children in order to live on benefits.




That is exactly what you said, actually.

Nice attempt to weasel out on semantics though! I also like your use of bold highlight to make the weasel attempt more prominent.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 October 2015)

Anti-Islam activist Geert Wilders' Australian visa 'granted'




> Controversial Dutch politician Geert Wilders claims to have had his Australian visa granted, meaning he will be able to travel to Perth in just over a week to launch an Australian anti-Islam party.
> 
> The founders of the Australian Liberty Alliance had feared the far-right politician may be unable to attend the launch due to visa delays, but it appears his visa has now been approved.
> 
> ...




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-...geert-wilders-australian-visa-granted/6839230


----------



## luutzu (8 October 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Sorry to top you out of your pole position Luutzu but as a white, glass wearing  40y male, I used to be tested for drug/explosive at every check point in Oz airport I was going thru
> something like 8 times out of 10 or something like this
> last week was most recent;
> They must guess I was not born in Oz.....
> ...




Maybe you got a French accent? 
Who could trust a Frenchy? haha

It's fine, I didn't raise any fuss. Racial profiling or any profiling is fine at airports. I don't look Asian anyway. Have been told I look Indian or Indonesian... I reckon I look more like Pierce Brosnan but then you know.


----------



## luutzu (8 October 2015)

Knobby22 said:


> I've been pulled up twice at Adelaide this year. Never been stopped before.
> 
> I am fair skinned, brown hair, freckles, bit like a grown up Sonny Hammond from Skippy.
> Maybe they are trying to not racially profile there.




Must be the car you're driving? Sporty, all souped up?

I was pulled over three times over the years where I knew it wasn't random.

Once I was pulled over on the way home. The cop said they saw me doing a big loop to somewhere and now back, where was I going? Was going to the video shop and hiring some new ones. What's in that plastic bag on your seat there? A kebab. 

All through the questioning my bloody put both hands at the top of the steering and make no sudden movement. Not with one cop next to me and the other standing on the other side.

Another time I was on one lane, an uncovered cop car on the other. At the green it sped up, speeding in a 50K zone, I was behind then it suddenly breaks, then breaks again so I overtook it. Got pulled over, then waited some 20 minutes as they check my license, then got fined for "overtaking on the inside"... yea, apparently it's dangerous for overtake on the inside lane.

Another time it wasn't racial... I drove my brother's sport car and ran the yellow. Couldn't stop at that yellow. Got pulled over, half hour of checking, then got fined $550.

An Asian friend of mine was out late near his home. Got picked up and they did a full internal search because he was out late. The dude was in year 11 and beside the baggy pants that was the fashion back then, trust me, not the drug pusher man.


I'm sure all Muslim/Arab parents cannot rest easy whenever their kids are out nowadays. The the random crazy White women on public transports is probably a good day until they get home.


----------



## Tisme (9 October 2015)

sinner said:


> Evidence please! You claim lack of application,
> 
> You want to defund the Islamic schools but who actually funds them? Rich Wahhabist Saudis, Qataris, Emiratis, by and large. Our supposed friends in the Arab world. They would be defunded in a second if we had our priorities straight. Instead we appoint them to run the UN Human Rights Council.
> 
> ...





You know and we know you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. 

WE the "Australian" people should not be funding nurseries for primitives that we stupidly imported. We should be applying the full weight of the law, regardless of black deep south americans, Saudi Arabia and wot not.... but I don't see any evidence of this happening and if it is we are being deprived of that news.

WE make special laws to take on arse4ole bike clubs and ping anyone with a motorbike riding in pairs, but we haven't got the nads to take, head on, a bunch of trouble makers to task. Instead we sneak around raiding houses after events and we talk about some separate community as if it has it's own autonomy and special compassion rules.

You got weeds in the lawn you can either mow them in, get rid of them or sacrifice the whole lawn for a new one (or better still a no maintenance Greek Lawn).

What's next, Arab-Australians, Chinese-Australians, Anglo-Australians ... it's just pure racism in play


----------



## SirRumpole (9 October 2015)

Parramatta shooting: 'If you don't like Australia, leave', Muslim leader to tell worshippers



> The chairman of a Sydney mosque is expected to tell worshippers that "if you don't like Australia, leave" during his first sermon since a teenage extremist who attended the mosque shot dead a man outside NSW Police headquarters.
> 
> Parramatta Mosque chairman Neil El-Kadomi has told Sydney newspapers he will deliver the message during his sermon at Friday prayers this morning.
> 
> ...




Good on him for saying that, it comes down to whether the hard liners will listen.


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## Tisme (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Parramatta shooting: 'If you don't like Australia, leave', Muslim leader to tell worshippers
> 
> 
> 
> *Good on him for saying that, it comes down to whether the hard liners will listen*.




Yeah but if a non muslim said it, he/she would be a slack jawed, rednecked, homophobic, Anglophile, racist, misogynistic bigot. 

Why are the press so wedded to the idea that Muslims should have their own community and own leaders and the demands by them for social vigilantism?


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## qldfrog (9 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Maybe you got a French accent? .



Suave charm even without speaking?
Officer was probably jaelous when man or envious when a lady 
Anyway, as you see : the look = check has weird consequences
Cheers


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## SirRumpole (9 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yeah but if a non muslim said it, he/she would be a slack jawed, rednecked, homophobic, Anglophile, racist, misogynistic bigot.
> 
> Why are the press so wedded to the idea that Muslims should have their own community and own leaders and the demands by them for social vigilantism?




That is the effect of religion, the weak minded being led by their witchdoctors.


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## noco (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> That is the effect of religion, the weak minded being led by their witchdoctors.




Yes, and the Fabians are bit like the religion mentioned, the weak minded being lead by their masters in the UN..


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## SirRumpole (9 October 2015)

noco said:


> Yes, and the Fabians are bit like the religion mentioned, the weak minded being lead by their masters in the UN..




...
:topic


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## noco (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> ...
> :topic




Not really......The UN, communism and Islam are all tied in together like one big happy family.


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## SirRumpole (9 October 2015)

noco said:


> Not really......The UN, communism and Islam are all tied in together like one big happy family.




Yessiree, all in it in one big world conspiracy.


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## noco (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yessiree, all in it in one big world conspiracy.




Rumpy, you have finally seen the light of day......The UN along with Islam and Communism want World domination with World Government....Ban-Ki-Moon is an out and out GREENIE and is as far left as he can go....extreme left.:badass::badass:


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## SirRumpole (9 October 2015)

noco said:


> Rumpy, you have finally seen the light of day......The UN along with Islam and Communism want World domination with World Government....Ban-Ki-Moon is an out and out GREENIE and is as far left as he can go....extreme left.:badass::badass:




Yeah well I suppose we will just let corporations solve all our problems, like the people who cheat emissions tests and try to give us lung cancer.


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## noco (9 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah well I suppose we will just let corporations solve all our problems, like the people who cheat emissions tests and try to give us lung cancer.




:topic


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## Wysiwyg (13 October 2015)

Does anyone think the extremist faction of this religious organisation are quietly accepted yet publicly denounced by the moderate believers? For the greater cause.  

Where Christianity differs is the hard core 'accept the scripture (and us) or perish in hell' approach. Jehovas Witnesses are the few remaining that try to convert by direct contact. One can say politely 'not interested thanks' and there will be no forced dogma, persecution or labeling of non believer. They are peaceful.

Ultimately, one could believe anything. Churn the words, add emotion, add pain and persecution, add justification,  add finance, add places to churn the belief, add control over others and there you have it. But is the belief real like  trees, water or sunlight?


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## noco (13 October 2015)

A must watch.....How the Muslims are taking over the world.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/6-3X5hIFXYU


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## luutzu (13 October 2015)

noco said:


> A must watch.....How the Muslims are taking over the world.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/embed/6-3X5hIFXYU




So they plan to take over the world by... by having more children? Sometime people just want a larger family, or maybe because their religion does not permit abortion or contraception.

If birth rate is the problem, what's the solution? Kill more Muslims? All non-Muslims to have more kids? Or build a couple really large concentration camps outback somewhere?


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## SirRumpole (14 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> If birth rate is the problem, what's the solution? Kill more Muslims? All non-Muslims to have more kids? Or build a couple really large concentration camps outback somewhere?




Cut family tax benefits ?


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## noco (14 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Cut family tax benefits ?




Good thinking Rumpy...I agree with you 100%......Make the bludgers think twice about relying on our generous welfare system.


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## Tisme (14 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Cut family tax benefits ?




Was it Howard/Costello who wanted more babies and paid large to those who heeded the call?


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## SirRumpole (14 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Was it Howard/Costello who wanted more babies and paid large to those who heeded the call?




Yes it was, and now FTB's are the second biggest welfare expense after pensions.

Probably un-affordable now the mining boom is over.


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## luutzu (14 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Cut family tax benefits ?




Haven't look at the stats but pretty sure they would have had as many kids as they would either way - religious teaching and plan for world domination and all that. Dam Catholics, and Muslims 

Seriously though, we all know the only number that counts end in dollars. There are six Walton kids, together they own over half of WalMart or around $160 Billion in asset; that's as much wealth about as some 30% of those in the lower American bracket... Definitely sure those six do not have the same say as any six other Americans.


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## noco (18 October 2015)

Is Barrack Obama a secret Muslim intent on extinguishing the Jews?

Read this to the end.
\

*Here is an explanation of the difference between the terms ISIS and ISIL.

I have been suspicious of the term ISIL to which the administration stubbornly clings.

ISIS = Islamic State of Iraq and Syria.  Iraq is to the east of Jordan (shaped like the hatchet) and Syria is to the north.

ISIL = Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Iraq is still to the east of Jordan, and “the Levant” is a term that comes from “the rising (of the sun, i.e., to the east)” - and is basically the land along the Mediterranean - that includes Lebanon, Israel, and those countries along there.

By saying ISIL, you “negate” Israel as its own country and lump it in with the rest of the countries along the Mediterranean - and Israel sort of disappears (loses its sovereignty) and becomes part of “the Levant ” - which is therefore part of ISIL.

If you've wondered, as I have, why all government agencies and especially BHO calls it ISIL and even spells it out every time it’s used, instead of ISIS as the rest of the world here's the answer.

Decoding Obama’s speech reveals some startling revelations.

In one press conference after another, when referring to the Muslim terror super-group ISIS, United States President Barack Obama will use the term ISIL, instead of their former name ISIS, or current name Islamic State.

Have you ever wondered about that?  Here is the difference:

What makes up the near exact center of the Muslim Levant ?  Israel. 
ISIL stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant.

Now, to us Westerners we don't really make much of a distinction, do we? 
No, honestly from our perspective it’s all about the same.  But how would a Muslim living in the Middle East view it?
  Just what is the Levant anyway? Let’s take a look.
  The geographical term LEVANT refers to amulti-nation region in the Middle East.  It’s a land bridge between Turkey to the north and Egypt to the south.
  If you look on a map, however, in the near exact middle of the nations that comprise the Levant, guess what you see? Come on, guess!
  It’s Israel.
  ****When Barack Obama refers over and over to the Islamic State as ISIL, he is sending a message to Muslims all over the Middle East, that he personally does not recognize Israel as a sovereign nation, but as territory belonging to the Islamic State.

Now you know why Obama says that he has no plan, no goal, and no stated aim for dealing with ISIS.  But he does have a plan, and it’s a really nasty, diabolical one.  Obama’s plan is to drag his feet for as long as he can, doing only the bare minimum that Congress forces him to do.  His plan to buy ISIL as much time as possible to make as many gains as they can.

Listen as Obama and his press secretary and the spokesperson for the State Department and his Joint Chiefs of Staff painstakingly spells out the letters I-S-I-L so there is no doubt in your mind.

And it’s working.

The Islamic State has garnered millions of dollars, a vast cache of weapons, and in their latest foray have captured Syrian fighter jets and now 12 commercial passenger planes.  With each passing day that Obama fulfills his stated aim of doing nothing, the Islamic State grows by leaps and bounds. The ultimate goal, of course, has not changed and will never change.
  The ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel.
  Now you know a little bit more about why Obama chooses his words so carefully.
  "A Jew who votes for Obama is like a chicken who votes for Col. Sanders."

God Bless and have a great day.





*
AUTHOR UNKNOWN.


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## noco (18 October 2015)

These people behind the building of a mosque in Bendigo may well be extremist.....Muslims who have been refused visas in other countries.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...o_are_these_people_behind_the_bendigo_mosque/

*The proposal by Australian Islamic Mission to build a $3 million mosque in rural Bendigo has already attracted an unsavoury crowd of protesters.

But that may not be the worst of it. Some of the people associated with AIM are so extreme they have been denied visas to the US and the UK.

For AIM’s 2014 and 2015 conferences the leading speaker is Dr. Anas Al-Tikriti, founder of the Cordoba Foundation, UK.

In August 2009, the Cordoba Foundation sponsored an event with Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki, a senior recruiter for Al-Qaeda who was killed in a drone strike in 2011.

Al-Awlaki… preached to three of the 9/11 hijackers, corresponded with Nidal Malik Hasan before the Army psychiatrist went on a shooting rampage in Fort Hood, and was linked to Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who tried to blow up a US airliner....

Another speaker at the AIM 2014 conference was Yvonne Ridley, an activist with the UK Respect party. Ridley called the Chechen architect of the Beslan school massacre “a ma*rtyr"…

Now read more........


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## Wysiwyg (18 October 2015)

I think most of us see the anti mosque protests as un-Australian because the Australian way is to give everyone a fair go. Hard to give this mob a fair go considering what is happening in the name of this religious belief.


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> I think most of us see the anti mosque protests as un-Australian because the Australian way is to give everyone a fair go. Hard to give this mob a fair go considering what is happening in the name of this religious belief.




You don't think we have already given them enough of a fair go? Do we hang around for a few more generations scared we will blown up, shot, etc while being progressively legislated out of the right to air a bigotted opinion against religious barbarians?

We know what's going to happen based on the mass Irish migration to Oz, when they fled from cultural repression and brought their skyfairies, nuns, politics and backward ways here ....  them and their Vatican masters have moved on from the union roots and taken over the political scene under the charade of party politics and divide.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> We know what's going to happen based on the mass Irish migration to Oz, when they fled from cultural repression and brought their skyfairies, nuns, politics and backward ways here ....  them and their Vatican masters have moved on from the union roots and taken over the political scene under the charade of party politics and divide.




The Oirish play a fair game of rugby though.


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The Oirish play a fair game of rugby though.




Aw, sure look it. Jaysis, they did quare well 'til they got the bejebus knocked outta 'em last night.


----------



## luutzu (19 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> You don't think we have already given them enough of a fair go? Do we hang around for a few more generations scared we will blown up, shot, etc while being progressively legislated out of the right to air a bigotted opinion against religious barbarians?
> 
> We know what's going to happen based on the mass Irish migration to Oz, when they fled from cultural repression and brought their skyfairies, nuns, politics and backward ways here ....  them and their Vatican masters have moved on from the union roots and taken over the political scene under the charade of party politics and divide.




Do you often have to explain your jokes and insults? Then find you're the only one who think it's funny, and even funnier than you thought it was because of how clever you have to be to come up with such nuance, take it both ways nugget like that? haha


----------



## Tisme (19 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> Do you often have to explain your jokes and insults? Then find you're the only one who think it's funny, and even funnier than you thought it was because of how clever you have to be to come up with such nuance, take it both ways nugget like that? haha




Nope ....  but hey, if insulting me makes you feel good go for it (water + duck + back)  You know that disappearing Oz culture others talk about?


----------



## luutzu (19 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Nope ....  but hey, if insulting me makes you feel good go for it (water + duck + back)  You know that disappearing Oz culture others talk about?




I'm not that talented, or sadistic... my insults are quite obvious and consists of four letter words 

It's the jokes that people often find insulting for some reason.


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## Tisme (20 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> I'm not that talented, or sadistic... my insults are quite obvious and consists of four letter words
> 
> It's the jokes that people often find insulting for some reason.




Nobody likes arsenic laced truths when it offends their own ill thought out opinions. I think it is my civic duty to expose the futility of thinking one is wiser than my own omnipotence.


----------



## qldfrog (20 October 2015)

make your own mind:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/exanu-woman-jacky-sutton-feared-is-would-target-her-20151019-gkd4ze.html
The plague is relentless


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## luutzu (20 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Nobody likes arsenic laced truths when it offends their own ill thought out opinions. I think it is my civic duty to expose the futility of thinking one is wiser than my own omnipotence.




You know I was trying to compliment you right? I thought that post up there was quite clever.


----------



## Tisme (20 October 2015)

luutzu said:


> You know I was trying to compliment you right? I thought that post up there was quite clever.




Yeah, I'm playing to the audience   eventually someone whom I've offended will bite (hopefully the database has enough capacity) 

P.S. Catholics and Oirish are fair game coz they are in my bloodlines too ....... we all have dark family secrets


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## luutzu (22 October 2015)

Tisme said:


> Yeah, I'm playing to the audience   eventually someone whom I've offended will bite (hopefully the database has enough capacity)
> 
> P.S. Catholics and Oirish are fair game coz they are in my bloodlines too ....... we all have dark family secrets




Give yourself some credit. Your fair game goes way beyond those two groups


----------



## DB008 (24 October 2015)

*Islamists 'recruiting' at Norway asylum centres​*



> Radical Muslims have been trying to recruit at reception centres for recently arrived refugees, Norwegian Police Security Service (PST) warns.
> 
> "We have seen signs that extreme Islamists have approached the reception centres and asylum seekers. They have been there to get contacts. Aside from that, it's difficult to say what their specific purpose is," JÃ¸rn Presterudstuen from PST told Norwegian news agency NTB.
> 
> ...





http://www.thelocal.no/20151023/islamists-recruiting-at-norway-asylum-centres​


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## Wysiwyg (14 November 2015)

MrBurns said:


> This is a game changer for me.
> 
> Islam is not a peaceful religion.
> 
> How many have to die before Govts do something ?



The enemy is the human sources of these attacks, not a religion. It appears religion is the front and a source of radicals but the humans encouraging and committing these attacks are the enemy. An enemy with hatred and a death wish to enact revenge.


----------



## dutchie (14 November 2015)

Waiting for "Je Suis Bataclan"

How many Je Suis' will there be before Europe (and the rest of the world) wake up.


----------



## MrBurns (14 November 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> The enemy is the human sources of these attacks, not a religion. It appears religion is the front and a source of radicals but the humans encouraging and committing these attacks are the enemy. An enemy with hatred and a death wish to enact revenge.




I beg to differ.

Islam doesn't tolerate Western values, they say they do but the hard liners, and there's plenty of them, hate the west.


----------



## Pager (14 November 2015)

dutchie said:


> Waiting for "Je Suis Bataclan"
> 
> How many Je Suis' will there be before Europe (and the rest of the world) wake up.




Exactly, and we will have the political leaders coming out with some very strong words, lots of back slapping in unity and then?????

But what I don’t understand is this campaign of Air strikes against ISIS, seems since they began, Islamic state have actually occupied and got more control over MORE land in Syria and Iraq? So the west has the ability to track down an individual in this jihad John and get him with a drone strike? But totally incapable of stopping ISIS from continuing to capture more of Iraq and Syria despite ongoing air strikes that were meant to stop them?

WTF is going on here, ISIS, a few pick up trucks and AK47,s Verses the cream of the worlds air forces


----------



## Tink (16 November 2015)

This is very sad to hear for Paris, Europe, and Western Civilisation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

We have friends that have not long come back from Europe, and they said, you could see the fighter jets flying over.

With all the security in place, and supposedly they have one of the best in the world, going by the reports, I cannot understand how 6 to 7 sites, all pre-meditated, were not picked up.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-...nse-has-to-change-after-paris-attacks/6941808

This was on one of the morning shows that day
https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/30095375/dr-keith-suter-questions-why-is-targeted-paris/#page1


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## Tisme (16 November 2015)

Pager said:


> WTF is going on here, ISIS, a few pick up trucks and AK47,s Verses the cream of the worlds air forces




Rather simple really; they demonstrate how they are willing to inflict savagery on their own, then hold cities hostage as ransom against outside interference. No one in the west wants to be labelled as killing civilians, no one in Russia wants their large investments in Syria compromised so nothing happens.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Rather simple really; they demonstrate how they are willing to inflict savagery on their own, then hold cities hostage as ransom against outside interference. No one in the west wants to be labelled as killing civilians, no one in Russia wants their large investments in Syria compromised so nothing happens.




The underlying question is how and where do they get their weapons and ammunition ?

There aren't all that many manufacturers around apart from the US, Russia and China but of course all those people want the money and they don't care who they sell the guns and bullets to.

Maybe there should be a 'war' against arms dealers, it may make the world a safer place if we blow all of them up.


----------



## qldfrog (16 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The underlying question is how and where do they get their weapons and ammunition ?
> 
> There aren't all that many manufacturers around apart from the US, Russia and China but of course all those people want the money and they don't care who they sell the guns and bullets to.
> 
> Maybe there should be a 'war' against arms dealers, it may make the world a safer place if we blow all of them up.




less than a months ago, The US was rearming the missles used by the Saudis in Yemen, and qatar was buying planes or navy boat do not remember which, so for the weapans and ammunitions not a big deal when the west is selling this type of equipment to the very one who support IS and want their destruction.
Remember also the shipment of ammunitions sent by the current turk government to IS; a few turk journalists died as a result of reporting it
As long as the west does not understand that IS represents a sizeable share of the muslim world/belief, we loose and will loose


----------



## noco (16 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The underlying question is how and where do they get their weapons and ammunition ?
> 
> There aren't all that many manufacturers around apart from the US, Russia and China but of course all those people want the money and they don't care who they sell the guns and bullets to.
> 
> Maybe there should be a 'war' against arms dealers, it may make the world a safer place if we blow all of them up.




I would say North Korea and Iran may be the culprits in supplying arms to these Islamic radicals.

I do believe this latest French attack will bring more countries into the conflict with more troops on the ground to defeat IS. ...Air strikes seem to be having little affect on IS advances....I would like to see IS stir up the dragon to the north...now that could be an interesting one. 

The UN is a toothless corrupt tiger and if the UN cannot take some action to combine all nations into doing some sleuth work into the source of supply of arms, then the Western World should by-pass the UN and take up their own combined effort to defeat terrorism....There is something drastically wrong with the UN and its leader Ban-Ki-Moon.


----------



## dutchie (16 November 2015)

The West and Islam  <==>  Oil and water


----------



## Tisme (16 November 2015)

> In the aftermath of the attacks on Paris, the French President, FranÃ§ois Hollande, said terrorists strikes were an “act of war” on France, “organised and planned from the outside”.
> 
> He said the attackers wanted “to scare us and fill us with dread”, but warned France’s retribution would be swift and unflinching.
> 
> “We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless. Because when terrorists are capable of committing such atrocities they must be certain that they are facing a determined France, a united France, a France that is together and does not let itself be moved, even if today we express infinite sorrow.”




https://www.facebook.com/armeefrancaise/videos/934108686634857/


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## Wysiwyg (16 November 2015)

It is heartening to hear the free world leaders unite as we the free world people do wish.


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## dutchie (16 November 2015)

Why am I not surprised.


Merciless ISIS gunmen even butchered fans in WHEELCHAIRS: New details emerge of the horrific slaughter in the Bataclan concert hall

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...all-without-second-thought.html#ixzz3rdUlHr00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## CanOz (16 November 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> It is heartening to hear the free world leaders unite as we the free world people do wish.




 'عدو عدوي هو صديقي'


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## Gringotts Bank (16 November 2015)

CanOz said:


> 'عدو عدوي هو صديقي'




Your typewriter is busted mate.


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## CanOz (16 November 2015)

Gringotts Bank said:


> Your typewriter is busted mate.




My enemies enemy is my friend...........


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## dutchie (21 November 2015)

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil,

but by those who watch and do nothing" - Albert Einstein


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## noco (21 November 2015)

The Western World has never been in a situation as they now face.......With the threat of terrorism and dwindling economics of income, expenditure and the almighty welfare system nobody wants to give up.

Greg Sheridan sums it up very well.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...617545125?sv=78ab13d45b438014720d6cce07338a0c

*The Grand Mufti in Australia should not be demonised for his foolish comments in response to the Paris attacks. He is not remotely a supporter of justifier of terrorism. But when he nominates causes of the terror attacks as “racism, Islamophobia, curtailing freedoms through securitisation, duplicitous foreign policies and military intervention”, he validates the paranoid and exaggerated sense of Muslim grievance on which the extremists thrive.*

*At the same time there is well-documented crisis of governance across the Western world. No Western nation can balance its expenditures with its revenues. All are caught up in an entitlements *crisis. Health and welfare spending are ballooning, so are unsustainable deficits. The prestige of democracy is under severe attack. For most of the Cold War, millions of people in the Third World, and in communist societies, yearned to live in nations governed as well as those of the West. It is a hard argument to make to a young banker or IT worker in Shanghai now that they would be better off if their government had the resolve and technical skill of Greece or Spain.

Put this all together and it’s not quite yet a full-blown crisis of a civilisation. But there’s a great deal of trouble ahead.*


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## luutzu (21 November 2015)

noco said:


> The Western World has never been in a situation as they now face.......With the threat of terrorism and dwindling economics of income, expenditure and the almighty welfare system nobody wants to give up.
> 
> Greg Sheridan sums it up very well.
> 
> ...




".. the paranoid and exaggerated sense of Muslim grievance"   

Beside ISIS and Assad, how many foreign armies are in, over, and otherwise shoot at Syria?
How about Libya? Egypt? Yemen? The Gulf states? Iraq; Afganistan; Parkistan... Western boots and drones are all over the region so to say it's paranoia or exaggerated sense of being taken over is a bit of a nonsense.

We in Australia got our flag waving when the Chinese buy, buy, too much of our milk and farm and houses; ports and other infrastructure... Our gov't still decide what to sell or not to sell to them and we, and Uncle Sam, are worried about a takeover.

So when the Muslims kind of not see us as liberators, maybe they have some good reasons... particularly when we prop up dictators and tyrants, sell arms to them so they can keep the peace and sell us the oil... maybe they aren't being paranoid. Especially when they see smashed buildings, bomb craters and constant shootings and other things billions of dollars of hardware does to the place.

Whatever our good intentions are in Afghanistan and Iraq, our involvement there cost some 2 million Iraqi lives, displaced a few more millions, set up the growth of ISIS, putting 100 million Muslim youth in a world where there is no future, no job, no hope... where they either join some gov't military or join the terrorists or if they still have some money buy their way out of their country.

So this talk about them being angry and murderous against us for no reason, you got to be living under a rock to believe that.

----

Regarding welfare ruining economies and countries... 

We really should be more critical of our gov't. That's what is expected of a democratic polity, it's not sympathies for the enemies, it's not disloyalty to the country when you question its gov't... that kind of talk beyond to North Korea and other states we don't particularly think have a good record on human rights and freedom and stuff.

If you listen to smarter people who study these stuff, they will tell you that the lessons of Vietnam for politicians and the political and business elite is that people are too powerful when they unite and demand stuff... and you can't shoot them or lock them up for peaceful protests.

So what to do?

Set up "think tanks", spread your message across all campuses and media... telling the people how great business and politicians are. 

Then you make policies that weaken the people. Higher cost of education so the little idealistic graduate don't have spare time and no debt to be asking questions and organising protests. They owe a lot of money and if they lose their job, or brought to court and charged with some small violation when they protests - it's fired and move back home to the garrage with the old folks. 

The rest of the working people, you make them poorer, less job security... in being poorer people will be less generous; in feeling insecure about their own economic situation they will start to question the "generosity" shown to other poor but lazy bums, and why refugees are getting free rides.

Then you buy off the media and the journalists.

No more investigative journos nosing around the shredded documents; if they want access to info and high profile interviews, play nice, ask the right questions and get that promotion that will pay off that loan and that beach house. No more images of the nasties that we do, only the nasties that our official enemies does...


It's pretty amazing


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> ".. the paranoid and exaggerated sense of Muslim grievance"




On the subject of arms you are absolutely right. Too many small arms flooding the Middle East, Africa and elsewhere.

What are these weapons and who is selling them ? A lot seem to be AK-47's (Kalishnikov) a Russian weapon, so unless the US is a sub agent for Russia I would not totally blame the US  for the weaponisation of the world.

As for killing civilians, you have another point, but given that ISIS hide in the civilian population like the Vietcong did it seems there is little alternative apart from trying to target the terrorists as precisely as possible.

It seems that the civilians are going to be killed either way but getting as many terrorists as possible first will cut down civilian casualties in the long run.


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## luutzu (21 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> On the subject of arms you are absolutely right. Too many small arms flooding the Middle East, Africa and elsewhere.
> 
> What are these weapons and who is selling them ? A lot seem to be AK-47's (Kalishnikov) a Russian weapon, so unless the US is a sub agent for Russia I would not totally blame the US  for the weaponisation of the world.
> 
> ...




US, France, Israeli, Russian, and heard China is also involved. It's a literal live testing of their systems. 

Heard in one of the interviews some expert was saying how after Gaddafi fell, the Mail (I think) he was working with or was controlling knew where Libyan arms were kept and as Libya was being bombarded those terrorists rush in and truck the arms back to their bases.

The allied then struck those guys and all those arms they got from Gaddafi were spread all over Africa and into ISIS. Much like how ISIS took crap load of weapons and humvees from the fleeing Iraqi army a couple years back, weapons we and the Russian and the Chinese supply to "our" "moderate" rebels/terrorists change hands. Often not at all to friendly hands.

But yea, in the end all arms dealers make a lot of money and a lot of people pay the price.

---

Heard from a few interviews that ISIS is not just the crazy religious nutjobs we see and hear about. A lot of them, a majority of them, were former Iraqi military generals and commanders who couldn't find work when the US took over and fired all Baath party members. They're not religious and are carving the region into new territories to control. In fact, they've controlled and function as a state in most areas in Iraq and Syria - that is, they tax, they provide jobs and policing and infrastructure etc. So ISIS might not be just some terrorists organisation but an actual state in the process of drawing up its borders.

As with the VC in Vietnam... bombing the population to get the bad guys will not win you hearts and mind. From stories I heard and stuff I read about how the VC operates... they can kill people and win the entire village over, the US and the South can't do it.

So the VC would move into a village, talk to the village elders and if he refuse to cooperate they shoot him dead. They then tell the people that foreigners and its puppets are taking over the Motherland.. and if you stand up to argue or think about it you disappear too. Soon pretty much all people who weren't convinced become convinced. 

It didn't help that many in the South were also corrupt and the Americans use chemical and napalm and carpet bomb the dam place to heck. 

So unless our aim in the region is to forced Russia and other states to support their proxy and go bankrupt, that and testing new weapons and destroy the entire place... we're not going to win this war. Why? Because we can go home and they're already at home.

As to bankruptcy... Saudi Arabia aren't doing so well with the halving of oil and its wars in Yemen etc., we in the West spend hundreds of millions there and about the same here at home on metadata, anti-terrorism efforts, arming our domestic security forces... and the enemy can just sit and wait while we burn cash every day.

This is how you win battles but lose the war... and on top of it, China and India is rising; South American states are pushing American influence and join powers like China and India. 

The only way to stop this madness is the people. But if we buy into this good versus evil, Islam is bad and us Democracy good... things will go on as they are, will get worst, and a lot of innocent Muslims will die and some of us will also be collateral damages. The crazies from both side don't see human lives and suffering, all they see is their grand strategy of remaking the world or owning it.


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> The only way to stop this madness is the people. But if we buy into this good versus evil, Islam is bad and us Democracy good... things will go on as they are, will get worst, and a lot of innocent Muslims will die and some of us will also be collateral damages. The crazies from both side don't see human lives and suffering, all they see is their grand strategy of remaking the world or owning it.




Yes a lot of innocent Muslims will die, just like a lot of innocent Britons and others did in WW2. 

I have a feeling that now that ISIS made the stupid blunder of attacking a Russian airliner that the Russians won't stop until ISIS is all dead, regardless of whether there will be anything left worth governing.

Just shows how crazy ISIS is, as crazy as Hitler when he attacked Russia. If he didn't do that he may well have won WW2.


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## DB008 (21 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes a lot of innocent Muslims will die, just like a lot of innocent Britons and others did in WW2.
> 
> I have a feeling that now that ISIS made the stupid blunder of attacking a Russian airliner that the Russians won't stop until ISIS is all dead, regardless of whether there will be anything left worth governing.
> 
> Just shows how crazy ISIS is, as crazy as Hitler when he attacked Russia. If he didn't do that he may well have won WW2.




Sir Rumpy, take luutzu with a handful of salt.....

Anyways...

The problem is, there is a holy book called the Quran (a man made fantasy tale, much like the Bible).

In that book, there is concise, explicit violent (+ sexual) text to harm others (among other stuff). This fantasy book was transcribed some ~1500 years ago to someone from a man called Mohammed (Mohammed was illiterate and 40 years of age when this happened), who got his revelation from an angel called Gabriel....

Do something like that nowadays and you'd be locked up in the nut house, but because it's religion, it's a'ok....

Question Mohammad - death
Criticize Mohammad - death
Draw Mohammad - death
...you get the picture...

Think l'm kidding...



> *Saudi court sentences poet to death for renouncing Islam​*
> A Palestinian poet and leading member of Saudi Arabia’s nascent contemporary art scene has been sentenced to death for renouncing Islam.
> 
> A Saudi court on Tuesday ordered the execution of Ashraf Fayadh, who has curated art shows in Jeddah and at the Venice Biennale. The poet, who said he did not have legal representation, was given 30 days to appeal against the ruling.
> ...


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## Tisme (21 November 2015)

Just think how happy we would all be now, if Diana and Dodi had wed. A real East meets West romance


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## trainspotter (21 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Just think how happy we would all be now, if Diana and Dodi had wed. A real East meets West romance




Now that IS funny


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## DB008 (21 November 2015)

trainspotter said:


> Now that IS funny




+1

That ISIS funny. The English would never let an Arab into their Royal bloodline...


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## qldfrog (21 November 2015)

it is funny, well actually sad,  how Luutzu managed to play again his story of:
these poor muslims (or should I say refugees? I am confused) are killing the infidels as they have seen their country bombed out by the US/russia/you name itt;
after an attack in Mali, he managed to put the blame on the west  getting rid of kadhafi;
Unique!!!!
sadly, the attackers were most probably Nigerians led who have never been bombed by any western country, but that should not stop a good story, so let's make one.
Just in case the obvious was too easy to see?


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

DB008 said:


> +1
> 
> That ISIS funny. The English would never let an Arab into their Royal bloodline...




The Arab wouldn't be in the Royal bloodlines. Diana had done her job by then and if she had married Fayed she would have been completely ignored by the rest of the Royals, and any children she may have had by Fayed would have had no claim on the throne.


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## trainspotter (21 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The Arab wouldn't be in the Royal bloodlines. Diana had done her job by then and if she had married Fayed she would have been completely ignored by the rest of the Royals, and any children she may have had by Fayed would have had no claim on the throne.




Have you not heard of Bukes peerage? It was a pun. And it was taken as a pun. A witticism if you will.


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## luutzu (21 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes a lot of innocent Muslims will die, just like a lot of innocent Britons and others did in WW2.
> 
> I have a feeling that now that ISIS made the stupid blunder of attacking a Russian airliner that the Russians won't stop until ISIS is all dead, regardless of whether there will be anything left worth governing.
> 
> Just shows how crazy ISIS is, as crazy as Hitler when he attacked Russia. If he didn't do that he may well have won WW2.




Let's hope ISIS disappear real quick. But the problem with all these is once ISIS is gone, another group will pop up. Just like how Al Qaeda was mostly gone, then some other groups then came ISIS. 

Heard this journalist on Democracy Now saying how the attack on Paris and the Russian plane in Egypt and other Hotel/Tourist destination... these are following some book one of them wrote on strategy to take. So these attacks are of course to cause terror, kill innocent people but they're not random... they aim at causing maximum economic losses as well as terror. 

That and as sptrawler said before... it also hope for us to turn against the Muslim refugees, and turn against the Muslim community within our own country. When Muslim youth are being harrassed by the police, face prejudice, see little hope of employment etc... it makes recruiting them easier.


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## SirRumpole (21 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> That and as sptrawler said before... it also hope for us to turn against the Muslim refugees, and turn against the Muslim community within our own country. When Muslim youth are being harrassed by the police, face prejudice, see little hope of employment etc... it makes recruiting them easier.




Spot on there. I suspect most of the refugees will be Christians as they are most likely to be persecuted by ISIS.


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## luutzu (21 November 2015)

qldfrog said:


> it is funny, well actually sad,  how Luutzu managed to play again his story of:
> these poor muslims (or should I say refugees? I am confused) are killing the infidels as they have seen their country bombed out by the US/russia/you name itt;
> after an attack in Mali, he managed to put the blame on the west  getting rid of kadhafi;
> Unique!!!!
> ...




Honestly I don't know where Mali is. I assume it's near Libya.

I don't make these stuff up. I can find the link to that interview if you like.

And I didn't blame the latest attack in Mali on the West, I didn't read into it. What I said was that when Gadafi was being bombed, his weapons cache was taken by some terrorist group in Mali; that group was then being chased/bombed by Western powers and the weapons they got dispersed with it.

There's a report by Turse last week showing how US has a bunch of bases in Africa, and through drones or with partners were involved in some 600 operations last year. That's the first I heard of it, but anyway.


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## luutzu (21 November 2015)

qldfrog said:


> it is funny, well actually sad,  how Luutzu managed to play again his story of:
> these poor muslims (or should I say refugees? I am confused) are killing the infidels as they have seen their country bombed out by the US/russia/you name itt;
> after an attack in Mali, he managed to put the blame on the west  getting rid of kadhafi;
> Unique!!!!
> ...




Nick Turse said it.


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## qldfrog (22 November 2015)

Thanks Luutzu, I was pulling my hair out when the west starting toppling Khadafi:
 a conspiracy theory would easily see that as a way for the US to eliminate Europe as a major world player: with the "refugees" now allowed to travel from Africa to Europe unchallenged, no better way to win an economic/power war unless the refugees are an economic chance with diversity, etc the road to nirvana: you should watch/read the rubbish european news can play

but believe me, this area has not waited  the Lybian collapse to have weapons like the ones needed in such raids:
you have an AK 47 to go herding your sheep there;
a jet being down by a missile in the coming months could indeed be linked to the fall, but not such attack.

Mali is mostly a desert saharian country with no border with Lybia, more on the west side 700lm or so  with no sea access, nordering Niger which itself is under an islamic insurection.Not much for Mali except a big migrant population which send back money to the family from mainly France.

We are in a war, and sadly many see it that way among radical islamist, not so many in the west;
And the war is NOT IS/daesh, al qaeda or whatever will be next, it is a belief war similar to the ideology  war of the 50's but much cruder and with as much propaganda (on both side I agree).

Funny how Paris attacks and their 400 victims is blamed on IS whereas I am not aware of any attacker being non european born, from muslim emigration background indeed, but born and bred in Europe.
Not a nice thing to say as this wipes out both the argument ofdrone bombing, etc but also should face politician with the complete failure of emigration, education and integration policies.The result in my opinion (and I am not the owner of truth there) of a welfare and victimisation ,mindset with rampant unemployment .Policies resulting from both right/left sides of politics, at leat in countries I am knowledgeable aka France/Belgium and to a lesser extent Germany/UK


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## qldfrog (22 November 2015)

for those interested in the role of Saudia Arabia in the current Jihad:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0


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## MrBurns (23 November 2015)

I never thought I'd laugh at a tragedy - 

Suicide Bomb Trainer in Iraq Accidentally Blows Up His Class

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/w...tor-accidentally-kills-iraqi-pupils.html?_r=0


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## noco (23 November 2015)

MrBurns said:


> I never thought I'd laugh at a tragedy -
> 
> Suicide Bomb Trainer in Iraq Accidentally Blows Up His Class
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/w...tor-accidentally-kills-iraqi-pupils.html?_r=0




That's not funny...that is hilarious..


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## SirRumpole (23 November 2015)

Tragic...


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## qldfrog (23 November 2015)

has anyone any feedback on the link:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html?_r=0


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## SirRumpole (23 November 2015)

qldfrog said:


> has anyone any feedback on the link:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html?_r=0




I'm not going to bother reading it because it's obviously true, as anyone who remembers "Death of a Princess" (not Diana) will know.

The Saudis are one of the most repressive regimes in the world, along with South Korea and Iran. They do a lot of business though and that's why people hold their noses and take their money.


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## DB008 (23 November 2015)

*Third Paris stadium suicide bomber identified as refugee who came via Greece – report​*


> The third suicide bomber who blew himself up outside of Paris’ Stade de France stadium last week has been identified by BBC as a man who arrived at the Greek island of Leros together with another attacker called Ahmad al Mohammad.




https://www.rt.com/news/323049-third-bomber-paris-stadium/​


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## luutzu (23 November 2015)

qldfrog said:


> has anyone any feedback on the link:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html?_r=0




I do 

The article itself is pretty pedestrian. Somewhat xenophobic with the usual Islamic culture being bad and horrible, just like Daesh/ISIS and other terrorists. In terms of geopolitics and history, the author hasn't a clue... or some clue but it's a childish belief that politicians say what they mean and mean what they say.. .and shock horror the US isn't being honest in it fights against ISIS yet it shake hands with the Saudis. I mean... maybe I should be paid writing these stuff.

Sure, Saudi Arabia is not a progressive state; Sure its Sheikhs and Princes and all the Royals are nasty... that's what happen when you have absolute power and a lot of cash and no one can challenge you.

Same with Saddam, the Taliban, Gaddafi and all the other authoritarian regimes - they are all nasty, not open to anything progressive, freedom of speech is what they say only. It's what Lord Acton once observed: absolute power corrupts absolutely.

So the article going on about how bad the Saudi is, how they're as nasty as ISIS is and only difference is the Saudis has made it, has established its State. Of course that's the case. Then the author got a bit surprised that the US/West shake hands with the Saudis but want to fight ISIS...

I'm no authority on the Saudis or ISIS or the ME, just watch a bit of docos and interviews so here am just repeating what all those hours comes to teach me.

After WW2, the US took control of colonies the British and French empires could no longer afford to control or are too important for the US to leave in the hand of anyone else.

So French and British territories in the ME and Africa were carved up, maps redrawn... France was left with most of North West Africa but the British ME was taken over by Uncle Sam with certain parts given to British interests as a minority shareholder. So Iran, the Gulf States, Iraq etc.... the Brits got some share in it with the US but... BUT Saudi Arabia belong entirely to the US.

Roosevelt told Churchill so... don't mess with Saudi Arabia, it's ours. Why? Not for the fisheries or the pearl. Oil.

So when management changed hands, the US kept the British strategy of having an Arab Fascade with the al Sauds as the tyrants doing all their crazy Islamic stuff, parading as though they actually own the place etc... as long as Joint Ventures and military bases and control of the black gold are in the hand of uncle sam, all is sweet.

The same tactics, with a few slight variations are done throughout the ME and Africa by all the major powers (mainly US, France, Britain) with the Soviets doing its parts to ruin the plans in Africa and the Stans countries.

So all the de-colonisation effort, the pro-democracy and secular movements in all these Arab states rose up after WW2, they were quickly quashed. CIA and special ops boots were on the ground but Arab shoes were doing the kicking. So dictators were supported and propped up, parliamentary democracies like Iran were tolerated until its president decided he ought to demand higher tax on his country's oil, he was overthrown and the Shah was put back into power [interesting to note that the Shah's father was deposed and the parliament was set up, but that didn't worked out so the dumbest, weakest son was put in and it worked until the Islamic revolution in 1979 [?]]...

So across the ME and the world... when socially progressive leaders can't be convinced to see the errors of their ways, can't be bought off... they get replaced by someone else who can. When the ones that replaced them are getting too comfortable with their place in the world and doesn't like to listen and do things like wanting to trade with China or Russia or float their oil on a different exchange under a different currency (Libya, Iraq)... their country got liberated from them. 

So even I know this stuff, now... and for some columnist to be surprised.. well he can't be a serious expert on the subject. I mean, there is nothing schizophrenic about what the West is doing in terms of fighting terrorism and getting in bed with the Saudis and other dictators. It's just what you do as imperial powers.

----------

So you set up puppets, let them build their Churches or Temples and a few palaces and stadiums or whatever... as long as they contract your corporations to do the building, all is sweet. Then when they aren't planning stupid useless stuff like skating ring in a desert they can sign off on oil deals at "reasonable" prices, and with those profits you tell them to buy billions and billions of weapons your other corporations also have. That's how you take everything.

So for the author to talk about ISIS and terrorism as fighting a culture when they should be fighting the patrons of those culture and Islamic teachings... what? seriously?

Heard that saudi arabia funded a large portion of what then became ISIS, and yes, also heard their Wahabi schools and religious leaders they funded churn out a lot of unfriendly terrorists. But it's done with US knowledge and permission... whether the US missed the true reason for these funding or not, that's beyond my little head. 

Who knows, maybe the US thought those groups were moderate and could counter the others in Iraq and elsewhere; maybe the Saudi went along with that vision but really plan to get rid of its master through these terrorists... history will tell. 

In terms of him claiming that ISIS parents are Saudi Arabia and the invasion of Iraq [US/UK's fault then?], and that it's cultural and killing terrorists will just make new ones because they all read the same book... what the?

Yea, people tend not to like liberators putting boots on their ancestral land and setting up their Constitution and have "elections" that divides this sect and that sect. Also, people don't like to be fired and have no hope of ever finding work to feed their family... and when they're generals and military officers and soldiers of the previous regime, they tend to put up a fight for "liberation". Then on top of that, why do you fire all public servants who know how to operate power stations and sewage systems, or who teaches?


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## luutzu (23 November 2015)

DB008 said:


> *Third Paris stadium suicide bomber identified as refugee who came via Greece – report​*
> 
> 
> https://www.rt.com/news/323049-third-bomber-paris-stadium/​


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## bellenuit (23 November 2015)

I'm very disappointed to hear Malcolm Turnbull describe the Paris attackers as "godless ISIL murderers".

Whether one is religious or not and if religious whether one agrees with their version of Islam or not, describing them as godless is simply moronic and since Turnbull is by no means a moron, one can only attribute the comment to political correctness gone mad. Failure to even recognise the primary motivation of ISIL bodes ill for any attempt to defeat them, either militarily or philosophically.


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## SirRumpole (23 November 2015)

bellenuit said:


> I'm very disappointed to hear Malcolm Turnbull describe the Paris attackers as "godless ISIL murderers".
> 
> Whether one is religious or not and if religious whether one agrees with their version of Islam or not, describing them as godless is simply moronic and since Turnbull is by no means a moron, one can only attribute the comment to political correctness gone mad. Failure to even recognise the primary motivation of ISIL bodes ill for any attempt to defeat them, either militarily or philosophically.




Maybe Turnbull has the naive belief that God is good, ISIS are not, therefore ISIS is Godless.

Depends on how you view God, or not as the case may be.


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## luutzu (23 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm not going to bother reading it because it's obviously true, as anyone who remembers "Death of a Princess" (not Diana) will know.
> 
> The Saudis are one of the most repressive regimes in the world, along with South Korea and Iran. They do a lot of business though and that's why people hold their noses and take their money.




I think you mean North Korea - the other third spoke in the axis of evil. You welcome 

The overseas Viets don't much like the South Korean though... a lot of them goes to Vietnam, pay a couple thousand dollars to those match-making services who then pay a couple hundred dollars to some poor Vnese young adult girls to be "married". 

Got the girl over then kept them as a maid, not a wife. And there are stories of sexual abuses by the entire male member of the family. There are a lot of sick people in the world.

Then there are Viet girls who married seemingly nice Viet boys or older widower, then systematically set out to cheat, find younger target... divorced, get half his stuff and bring the family over.

Then there are capitalists. 

I think God might exists but ran away scared of what He had created. Better disown these little homicidal monkies before the other Gods found out.


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## qldfrog (23 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm not going to bother reading it because it's obviously true, as anyone who remembers "Death of a Princess" (not Diana) will know.
> 
> The Saudis are one of the most repressive regimes in the world, along with South Korea and Iran. They do a lot of business though and that's why people hold their noses and take their money.



It is more/also on the way they are spreading their radical version in the west and why the Islam of the past has been replaced by a medieval deranged view of the world;
I see so many papers or opinion blaming IS, palestinian conflict, bombing in afghanistan, irak and soon syria as the reason of the extremism, yet rhe reason is so simple and obvious;
When I say Islam is to blame, I am torched down.
It is , that version of islam is, the trouble is that it is spreading like a wildfire and is no more a minority view.The petro dollars can buy the masses

The west should not bomb IS to stop the integrists, they should bomb Riad (not that it would solve much in either case);
The only positive with that story is that I believe sooner or later, these fanatics will actually turn against their masters, the corrupt leaders of S.A, Qatar etc


----------



## luutzu (23 November 2015)

qldfrog said:


> It is more/also on the way they are spreading their radical version in the west and why the Islam of the past has been replaced by a medieval deranged view of the world;
> I see so many papers or opinion blaming IS, palestinian conflict, bombing in afghanistan, irak and soon syria as the reason of the extremism, yet rhe reason is so simple and obvious;
> When I say Islam is to blame, I am torched down.
> It is , that version of islam is, the trouble is that it is spreading like a wildfire and is no more a minority view.The petro dollars can buy the masses
> ...




If you believe Islam is to blame, just like if you believe anything else or want to argue any other point of view, you will have to make a convincing case to support it.

If Radical Islam, as opposed to normal Islam, is to blame... First, what is "radical" Islam? Extreme rightwing crazy religious Islam? What percentage of Muslims are radicals? How come they all seem to be radical in places where there are power vacuums and/or foreigners on their land and/or when they're being bombed?

If Islam is to blame, why aren't all Muslims terrorists?

If a Muslim is too "extreme" regarding his/her devotion to Islam... ie. too religious... Why aren't Islamic scholars violent and terrorists?


I think, given what happen in Paris and France this year, that you are searching for answers. These kind of journey will take time and will be easier for outsiders... but yea, it's not going to be easy, particularly if you read the opinion pieces or news coverage from our sold out Fourth Estate. The alternative views may prove hard to swallow... and somewhere in between you may have a mental breakdown before any conclusion is reached.

As journalist Greenwall (Snowden case) said, the first to blame for Paris is of course ISIS... there is no justification for killing people. So there's no issue there. Once you pass that, then ask why did they do it? What drive people to commit mass murder, blew themselves up?

Islam? Can't be because not all Muslims do that kind of stuff. So Islam and what else? Stupid things young people just do?


As other smarter people have said... religion is simply a tool to unite the various different people into a tribe, into a single people. Once you get people to read the same book, follow the same rituals... they become one, or at least are easier to be convinced that they are one and share the same interests.

So Islam did the unifying for these terrorists... Did Islam then tell them to go murder the French? Or threaten Americans? Or murder the Russian tourists?


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## Wysiwyg (24 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> If Islam is to blame, why aren't all Muslims terrorists?



An American pitbull and a chihuahua are both dogs and one is more likely to attack than the other but we don't consider all dogs dangerous.


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## luutzu (24 November 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> An American pitbull and a chihuahua are both dogs and one is more likely to attack than the other but we don't consider all dogs dangerous.




That could be taken in so many ways... So is the American Pittbull the terrorists or the Eagle? haha

To paraphrase Han Fei Tzu: animals, dogs and beasts; when threatened and cornered will claw and bite back. How then will not Man?


Again, don't take these arm chair discussions as excuse for terrorism or violence. They are merely to try to get us to see if there are reasons or causes other than the official narratives, or reasons beyond our own prejudices and misinformation. Again, with all the reasonable justifications in the world, no violence is ever justifiable.

It's understandable that political leaders all act surprised and innocent - they're all psychotic and will sell their mother if it get them another term in office; that and some of them may very well be clueless... But we somewhat sane people shouldn't make sweeping comments as though history only begin when things happen to us.


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## Wysiwyg (24 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> But we somewhat sane people shouldn't make sweeping comments as though history only begin when things happen to us.



To defend any behavior, review of history will provide a justification/reason/excuse for what happens in present time. Killing civilians because ...... killing terrorists because ......

Terrorist versus the world. No pity for the under dog.


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## Tisme (24 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> .. First, what is "radical" Islam?




Islam


----------



## luutzu (24 November 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> To defend any behavior, review of history will provide a justification/reason/excuse for what happens in present time. Killing civilians because ...... killing terrorists because ......
> 
> Terrorist versus the world. No pity for the under dog.




We can't solve any problems without knowing what are the possible causes.

If we just assume that terrorism is a Muslim/Islam thing... are we going to either convert or kill all those Muslims? Is that the final solution?

That seem to be the solution we're going for since at least 2001. Look at what happen.

In Iraq alone some 2 to 3 million people got killed. That's the entire population of Sydney, got wiped off the map. Millions more go to refugee camps. Most of the fertile land are probably gone for a few decades. 

But that's their problem for being terrorists right?

What about us? We're fine with it?


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## SirRumpole (24 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Islam




It's a bit more complex than that.

Jordan is an Arab state but seems to get along with Christians and Muslims in the Parliament, and it's also progressive and liberal.

If all the Arab countries in the ME were like Jordan there would be a lot less trouble.


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## Tisme (24 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a bit more complex than that.
> 
> Jordan is an Arab state but seems to get along with Christians and Muslims in the Parliament, and it's also progressive and liberal.
> 
> If all the Arab countries in the ME were like Jordan there would be a lot less trouble.




Well then they aren't Islamic then are they.


Let me expand on that : my daughter hooked up with a heart surgeon who just happened to be one of those many Jordanian males royals, an affliction that seems to beset every Porsche owning Jordanite male when overseas. He insisted he was not full on Islamic, which is an oxymoron, then proceeded to stealthily treat mine as a secondary to the rules of seasonal abstinence, prayer and other primitive rules as dictated by a load of scribble, supposedly trumpeted to some war monger back in the days of leprechauns, smirfs and fairies.

Thank Christ she realised what was happening and gave him and his manipulations the flick.

It's like being a Roman Catholic...you either are or you are not.

You go to Israel, Jordan, any of those original seven tribes of Canaan countries, then expect to finagled out of your money and comfort zones, all under the watchful eye of the Yahweh and his cloak of invisibility . IMO.


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## SirRumpole (24 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Well then they aren't Islamic then are they.
> 
> .




At least they seem o have an education system that recognises the value of heart surgeons instead of simply relying on Allah for a cure.

Even so, better keep that ticker of yours in good order.


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## Wysiwyg (24 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> We can't solve any problems without knowing what are the possible causes.



That is true but immediate temporary control is to hunt, kill or incarcerate perpetrators and their accomplices for the criminal activity as every civilised country does. Grievances should be pursued in a civilised manner.    



> If we just assume that terrorism is a Muslim/Islam thing... are we going to either convert or kill all those Muslims? Is that the final solution?



To me it is obvious the extremist movement is using the Islam religion as a front for recruitment. The final solution is not infringing on other people or countries. History tells us that infringing on others is a human trait with a goal of control or the satisfaction of vengeance.



> In Iraq alone some 2 to 3 million people got killed. That's the entire population of Sydney, got wiped off the map. Millions more go to refugee camps. Most of the fertile land are probably gone for a few decades.
> 
> But that's their problem for being terrorists right?
> 
> What about us? We're fine with it?




Dictators, especially those warmongering, bring much grief to their own people. George Bush should be indicted for the invasion. Tough sanctions a better choice.


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## luutzu (24 November 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> That is true but immediate temporary control is to hunt, kill or incarcerate perpetrators and their accomplices for the criminal activity as every civilised country does. Grievances should be pursued in a civilised manner.




I agree. Yes please. Find them and lock them up. Keep us safe.



> To me it is obvious the extremist movement is using the Islam religion as a front for recruitment. The final solution is not infringing on other people or countries. History tells us that infringing on others is a human trait with a goal of control or the satisfaction of vengeance.




Heard David Cameron is calling for more UK bombing of Syria. Haven't they, we?, been doing that? The solution is not more bombs, David. 

So we're fighting terrorists at home, spending god knows how much per year... and abroad keep on creating more terrorists because that's how you win wars... and who's paying for all these with their blood and treasure? Not them or their pals.

I mean, China's Ming and Qing dynasties fell because they can't tax their rich and royals, and spend whatever they can tax fighting internal rebellions/terrorists. So while they're too busy going broke and hunting down terrorists, the Manchurian barbarians just walk into the capital and take over; then came the Western barbarians a couple centuries later with a few ships and a few cannons (and loads of opium) and just carve up the middle kingdom. 





> Dictators, especially those warmongering, bring much grief to their own people. George Bush should be indicted for the invasion. Tough sanctions a better choice.




The only people sanctions harm are the civilians. Sanction only make dictators more powerful. Look at that fat Kim in North Korea. In Iraq, sanctions Bush the Elder put in place and continued under Bill Clinton caused an estimated 100,000 dead Iraqi children - all from malnutrition and lack of medicine.


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## Wysiwyg (24 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> The only people sanctions harm are the civilians. Sanction only make dictators more powerful. Look at that fat Kim in North Korea. In Iraq, sanctions Bush the Elder put in place and continued under Bill Clinton caused an estimated 100,000 dead Iraqi children - all from malnutrition and lack of medicine.



So (pause) turn a blind eye?


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## luutzu (24 November 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> So (pause) turn a blind eye?




Sometime turning blind eyes yet you get to save lives (or not cause death) might be a good thing.


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## Wysiwyg (24 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> Sometime turning blind eyes yet you get to save lives (or not cause death) might be a good thing.



Maybe the horror of the German and Japanese wars last century has instilled a desire for the (relatively) sane world to step in before death and destruction becomes massive. 

Anyway, I'm batting for the (relatively) sane, civilised freer world.


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## luutzu (24 November 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> Maybe the horror of the German and Japanese wars last century has instilled a desire for the (relatively) sane world to step in before death and destruction becomes massive.
> 
> Anyway, I'm batting for the (relatively) sane, civilised freer world.




Aren't we all?

People who criticises do so to correct and thus preserve our society, maybe bringing it towards that ideal image of itself. Those who want to bring it down abuse their position, manipulate the masses so they can go on destroying the world, and eventually our own. 

As for the terrorists.. they beg and pray that we keep doing what we do - that's why they're doing it. It benefits them in terms of recruitment, benefits them in sending us broke, benefit them in making us out to be rogue states in the eyes of the world where we aren't singing our own song and dance.

I mean, besides the innocent lives lost and the pain it cause their loved ones, the Paris attack costs the French at least few hundred millions dollars. First they got to fight back, then hunt down the mastermind and support network, then beef up their security... then there'd be a lot of holiday plans being cancelled or go elsewhere. 

Then being an allied, the US, UK, Australia etc. will have to beef up securities, warn its citizens of their holiday travels. Not good for business, or holiday cheers. 

What does the bombs we drop on Syria do anyway? Besides making us feel good about doing something. The ISIS leaderships are probably deep down some tunnels... it's only the few errand boys and loads of civilians we'd be hitting. Those are readily replaced by people seeing their loved ones, seeing their country being blown to bits.

I don't know what our strategy is, but definitely sure it's not to win the war nor the battles nor hearts and mind.

----
Yea, the lessons of WW2 seems to be, to all politicians, that we ought to fight and pre-emptive strike them before they strike us... else WW2 and all the death will follow.

That's the official narrative, and it's wrong.

First, it's a war crime to start war, to pre-empt and take the first strike. Second, it's a war crime to intentionally kill or harm civilian targets.

But let's admit reality exists and in reality, as Tacitus observed way back then, that the mighty do as they please while the weak submit as they must... Let's take that and see how all these benefit us citizens.

The lesson of WW2 regarding first-strike or appeasement... First, Chamberlain and the UK never appease. They weren't like... oh Adolf, you scroundrel, please be nice or else... I'm warning you Adolf, be nice or else, I mean it!

The UK have to appease, have to sit by and watch Hitler and the Nazi build up its military, take over a few weaker European states... all because they have no choice but to appease. Until it is too late.


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## Tisme (24 November 2015)

Who's buying the oil from ISIS?


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## SirRumpole (24 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Who's buying the oil from ISIS?




A very good question. When you find out, let us know.



Here is one view:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-and-Isil-is-new-target-for-EU-sanctions.html


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## qldfrog (24 November 2015)

oil from Daesch is sold via Turkey, This country has also been providing weapons to IS;
Turkey is a NATO country so, with Turkey and the Saudis as allies, IS is not going to die quickly!!!


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## luutzu (24 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Who's buying the oil from ISIS?




Heard oil isn't their only, nor their main, source of revenue now. 

This ISIS expert estimate that their monthly expenses is about $80M a month. So oil alone won't cover it. What they do is tax everything in territories they control or influence. According to this guy, ISIS is an actual state in that it has its own money, provide public services, tax its terrorities and all trades within it. 

Reminds me of what the VC did in South VN long before they took over. They have their tax collectors going around to all mid-size and big businesses asking for taxation... business people know better to pay up or else.


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## SirRumpole (24 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> Heard oil isn't their only, nor their main, source of revenue now.
> 
> This ISIS expert estimate that their monthly expenses is about $80M a month. So oil alone won't cover it. What they do is tax everything in territories they control or influence. According to this guy, ISIS is an actual state in that it has its own money, provide public services, tax its terrorities and all trades within it.
> 
> Reminds me of what the VC did in South VN long before they took over. They have their tax collectors going around to all mid-size and big businesses asking for taxation... business people know better to pay up or else.




They probably have links with the Taliban in Afghanistan who control a large slice of the worlds heroin production.


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## SirRumpole (24 November 2015)

The escalation continues. Turkey shoots down Russian fighter.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-24/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syrian-border/6970776


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## luutzu (24 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> They probably have links with the Taliban in Afghanistan who control a large slice of the worlds heroin production.




Oh yea, you're right. fark. Heard the US has been in talk with the Taliban to bring them into gov't... maybe they weren't so evil after all?

Maybe we ought to give the military an Xbox or you could build them a game SirRumpole. Each side get to duke it out on the consoles and whoever win the game win the territory in real life. That way there's something left to gain, and a lot of people don't have to die for it.


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## luutzu (24 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> The escalation continues. Turkey shoots down Russian fighter.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-24/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syrian-border/6970776




Seriously... we might wake up one day and the world's gone.


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## Wysiwyg (24 November 2015)

qldfrog said:


> Saudis as allies



Listened to the Saudi Arabia Foreign Minister and he has an Irish like accent.  Also says that Assad will go.


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## qldfrog (25 November 2015)

Wysiwyg said:


> Listened to the Saudi Arabia Foreign Minister and he has an Irish like accent.  Also says that Assad will go.



That is why they and Turkey are allied to IS:
in their dream world, sunnis rule, kurds and infidels are wiped out, and Iran is next on the list;
For a long time the US was playing their game with Iran the Evil supported by bad Russia
At last, the west now realises that this is not so black and white and that if you want to sip a red wine on a terrace in Paris while reading charlie hebdo without being blown to pieces, you are much better off with the other side.
No angel either but a far lesser evil
Not sure the cold war heritage in the US pentagon got that yet: they are often one war behind. Danger ahead.
During that time, the west is expected to take millions of so called refugees while the gulf states keep importing asian slave manpower to build their ski fields in the desert.All is good in the best of the world


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## qldfrog (25 November 2015)

Syria is now a major producer of Captagon: an amph like drug used by terrorists and fighter.google it if interested but it is funding this war too


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## Tisme (25 November 2015)

qldfrog said:


> That is why they and Turkey are allied to IS:
> in their dream world, sunnis rule, kurds and infidels are wiped out, and Iran is next on the list;
> For a long time the US was playing their game with Iran the Evil supported by bad Russia
> At last, the west now realises that this is not so black and white and that if you want to sip a red wine on a terrace in Paris while reading charlie hebdo without being blown to pieces, you are much better off with the other side.
> ...




I think the west has proved time and time again to be ahead of the pack when it comes to assessing threats and opportunities. It just can't help being the vulnerable Athenians 

It even knew WW1 and WW2 were coming and the ends justified the means. I wouldn't be surprised if a WW3 isn't in the works already, with only the combatants and theatres to be worked out. 

The west is a Lernaean Hydra because it's built on Christian Democracy, which itself firmly roots in the inadvertent plagiarisms of middle eastern ancient scriptures and beliefs of powerful the nation states that subjugated the Jews: 

.the old testament is like a almanac of Zoroastrianism,  Perisan Zarathustra, Canaanite religions, Book of the Dead, Gilgamesh, etc.; 

.while the new testament has a good serving of cultural Assyrian, Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Persian/Roman Mithraic Mysteries, Buddha and Zarathustra, etc.

There's just too much great civilisations DNA in the west self belief systems to not portend threats and act them out to its short term detriment.

Maybe the plan is to convert the relocated Islamists to the Modern Christian ethics of 'who gives a toss about skyfairies'? 

Deep eh


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## luutzu (25 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> I think the west has proved time and time again to be ahead of the pack when it comes to assessing threats and opportunities. It just can't help being the vulnerable Athenians
> 
> It even knew WW1 and WW2 were coming and the ends justified the means. I wouldn't be surprised if a WW3 isn't in the works already, with only the combatants and theatres to be worked out.
> 
> ...





That's deep. I understand maybe 10% of it


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## Tisme (25 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> That's deep. I understand maybe 10% of it




Then you think like a westerner ...congratulations.


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## Wysiwyg (25 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> But we somewhat sane people shouldn't make sweeping comments as though history only begin when things happen to us.



That's right. How far do we want to look back? The common denominator in all life forms is survival. Introduce words (thinking) and the survival implant becomes distorted.


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## luutzu (26 November 2015)

Tisme said:


> Then you think like a westerner ...congratulations.




Just re read it a couple times. Now understand 15%, haha. 

Na it's actually quite deep.

That's how you insult people and still make friends with them ey?


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## SirRumpole (26 November 2015)

Any comments on this ?

Regrettably for the person concerned I think his comrades would probably have doubts as to whether he would start firing on them, and so he should not be in a combat position imo.

Australian Muslim soldier 'labelled a security risk', says he was told he would never be promoted

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-26/australian-muslim-soldier-branded-security-risk/6963698


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## Wysiwyg (26 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Any comments on this ?



The analogy - looks like a duck, walks like a duck, must be a duck - is how these people are viewing a follower of Islam. The Islamic State Jihad has raised much doubt and mistrust of Islam followers worldwide. Not knowing which one is batting for the other side.


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## luutzu (26 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Any comments on this ?
> 
> Regrettably for the person concerned I think his comrades would probably have doubts as to whether he would start firing on them, and so he should not be in a combat position imo.
> 
> ...




Maybe his superior did say that to him and the fellow soldiers... well some can be a bit... a bit too Australian, haha. But I doubt it's some agenda the military would have against Muslim in their ranks. They might promote a Muslim just to serve the propaganda side of things.

Saw that in the US, there's a 2 or 3 star general they got who's an Arab/ME... I think he's a Muslim too. In that based on a true story Bravo Dark Thirty [?] about the hunt for bin Laden... one of the top CIA guy was a Muslim convert so yea.

But I'd probably be asking myself what the heck am I doing blowing up people and things I can hardly see, not sure who they are and whether they're the bad guy or just look like the shadow of the bad guy. That, rather than suing people for judging and hating me when they don't even know me all that well.


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## Tisme (27 November 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Any comments on this ?
> 
> Regrettably for the person concerned I think his comrades would probably have doubts as to whether he would start firing on them, and so he should not be in a combat position imo.
> 
> ...




Trust me...I'm a :

politician;
car salesman;
Muslim;

as if it wouldn't be hard enough, as a male soldier trying to kill and survive, but minding your P&Qs around gays, women, coloureds and then have to watch your back from a nutter who is just as likely to slit your throat or blow up the platoon.

Looking at the pic, he's even taken up with the islamic uniform of the taliban.


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## Tisme (27 November 2015)

> "Followers of Allah are the sweetest people in the world. They don’t carry knives. They don’t tote weapons.”




http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news...-Muhammad-Ali-Convicted-of-Draft-Evasion.html

Same bloke who divorced his wife because she wouldn't bend to his will and dress in Muslima wear, declared white people were his enemy, called black people n*****s, and gave Michael Parkinson the irrits.


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## noco (30 November 2015)

This U-Tube scared the $hit out of me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6UsInBa2Rg


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## Wysiwyg (30 November 2015)

noco said:


> This U-Tube scared the $hit out of me.



The best outcome is for this chaotic period to dissolve and we all live within the laws of Australia. A continued push by certain factions to enforce their religious agenda will derail the peaceful transition to better understanding and respect of a culture quite different to ours.


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## luutzu (30 November 2015)

noco said:


> This U-Tube scared the $hit out of me.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6UsInBa2Rg




Ey, Turnbull watched the same doco I watched. 


Here's a video to help you sleep better noco. Just maybe don't watch the entire movie - didn't end well from memory.


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## noco (30 November 2015)

luutzu said:


> Ey, Turnbull watched the same doco I watched.
> 
> 
> Here's a video to help you sleep better noco. Just maybe don't watch the entire movie - didn't end well from memory.





What is the relevance to the thread and the post?......You have lost me.


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## luutzu (1 December 2015)

noco said:


> What is the relevance to the thread and the post?......You have lost me.




Sending in the cavalry and all that.


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## Tisme (1 December 2015)

noco said:


> This U-Tube scared the $hit out of me.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6UsInBa2Rg




Doesn't scare me, but I still want to know why we have treason laws and won't use them.....anyone think eugenics is out of the question?


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## Tisme (2 December 2015)

A little bit of hindsight that seems to have been ignored with latest round of propaganda that Muslims protect America first.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2009/ss_military0876_11_10.asp


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## bellenuit (6 December 2015)

Great insight by Simi Rahman (US pediatrician, once a "moderate" Muslim) as to why young Muslims in the West are so easily tempted by radical Islam.

_Every Muslim humanist is asking themselves a question I first asked myself in September 2001.
How do you tell a radical Muslim from a moderate peace loving one?
And here is my train of thought.
The 9/11 hijackers reminded me of boys I had gone to school with in Dubai in the 80s and 90s. They were the same age, background, and modern enough to have listened to 80s pop and chased girls. Meaning that just like most young people in the Muslim world, we weren't that religious.
So, I thought, maybe I could locate the differences between them and me, and at some point I would identify a breakaway point. Something they would do that I never would. And it took me a while to realize this, and now with the California shootings, it has reaffirmed for me, that indeed, when it comes to being able to tell a moderate from a radical in Islam, you can't.
You really can't tell until the moment before they pull the trigger, who is moderate and who is jihadi. Tashfeen has broken our moderate backbone, by revealing that she lived among us, unnoticed, normal, experiencing motherhood, enveloped in our secure community and yet, had radicalized.
And that's the problem, that there are many others like her with exactly the same beliefs, who may not have been ignited yet by a radical cleric, but if the opportunity presented itself, they would follow. They're like a dormant stick of dynamite, waiting for the fuse to be lit. The TNT is already in there.
What's it made of? Not the 5 pillars, belief, charity, prayer, fasting and pilgrimage. Not the sayings of the prophet as to how to lead a good and just life. Not the celebration of Eid ul Fitr.
It possibly glimmers through in the fealty that Allah demands during the Eid ul Adha, when Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son as a sign of his superior faith is commemorated in a sacrifice and celebration very much like the American Thanksgiving, with family and food. But without the football. And oh yes, the fratricide.
It is there in the silence one must maintain during prayer, brooking no interruptions, because it would make the prayer invalid. It is there in the severity of the hijab when it is followed to a tee. Not a hair can show. It is there in the forced separation of men and women at social gatherings.
It is present in every act that is performed that excludes us from the mainstream. It is present in the very concept of Us and Them. Because the only way we remain Us is to reject Them. The only way to be an exemplary Us is to reject westernization at every turn. Halal only is a sham, constructed out of this notion of meat that has been cut a certain way. It's the same meat. And yet there is a magical difference that people will attest to in all seriousness.
I went deep into the Midwest, wore a hijab for a year and lived there for 8 years. In that time, I attended ISNA gatherings, met w educated, professional people like myself who were also asking the same questions. They were looking to their faith for answers. And sure, there were efforts made to modernize Islam, but they were only superficial. We couldn't do it. We couldn't do it because there is a logical dilemma at the core of Islam. And that is, that the Quran is the last word of God, that it is perfect and unchangeable. And to even suggest such a thing is blasphemy and apostasy.
And so, to understand the moderate mind, you have to envision it on a continuum from radical to middle, but the closer you get to liberal, there is a wall. It creeps up on you, in the condemnation of homosexuality, in the unequal treatment and subjugation of women, but it's there. Beyond that wall that they are afraid to look over, for fear of eternal hell fire and damnation, is where the answer lies though. So being a Muslim moderate these days is like running a race with a ball and chain attached to your feet. A handicap. Unless you can imagine what the world beyond that wall looks like, you can't really navigate it. If you're so terrified of blasphemy that you refuse to look over, you're forever stuck. Right here. And behind you is the jihadi horde, laying claim to real Islam, practicing it to perfection, as it is laid out in the Quran. A veritable rock and a hard place. I feel your pain. I've been there. And it was untenable.
I read, discussed, debated alongside many good Muslim young people from all over the world, in Internet forums, trying to argue our way to a solution, much like we are doing on social media right now. I knew I rejected the homophobia, I knew I rejected the subjugation of women. And it all remained a theory until I saw it in practice. In the drawing rooms of the Midwestern professional moderate Muslim. There was the discussion of whether the verse that allows a man to strike his wife instead actually means, he should strike her with a feather. As a doctor, I am a humanist first, and so the blatant homophobia was irrational, dangerous and something I stopped tolerating politely. I attended presentations at the mosque of videos from the Palestinian Territories, played to rouse the outrage of the gathered congregation.
And that's when the absurdity started to really hit home. What in the world were we doing? We were training our children to kowtow without questioning an authority that we believed would keep them safe from evil western ways. And so the community's children went to Sunday school, wore hijab, prayed and fasted. They were enveloped in a Muslim identity that was unlike any that I had experienced before. I was raised in a Muslim country in the Middle East and religion was something we kept in its place, somewhere after school, soccer and cartoons. Here was a more distilled, pure and, most dangerously, a context-free Islam. There were no grandmothers here to sagely tell us which parts of the Quran to turn a blind eye to. There were no older cousins here who skipped Friday prayers and goofed off with their friends instead. Oh no. This was Islam simmered in a sauce of Midwestern sincerity, and boiled down to its dark, concentrated core. This was dangerous.
As my children grew older, I grew more afraid. I had tolerated their father's insistence on sending them to Sunday school, where mostly they played and learned a few surahs. But as they grew older I knew it would change. A sincerity would creep in to their gaze, teenage rebellion would find just cause in judging your less religious parents as wanting and inferior. Bad Muslims. How many teenagers have started to wear hijab before their own mothers? I've lost count. Mothers who found themselves in this dilemma would choose to join their child on this journey. They would cover too, and as such offered a layer of protection from the ideology by offering perspective.
I worried though, about the Internet, about radical recruiters posing as friends, finding willing and malleable clay in our unformed children. For we would keep them unformed. We would shield them from western influences in order to protect them, only to create a rift that could be exploited as an entry point. We would in essence be leaving our children vulnerable to radicalization.
And that is exactly what has been happening. The young girls from Europe and the US who have traveled to Syria to join ISIS, have done so because they're looking for what all teenagers are looking for, a sense of identity, to differentiate themselves from their parents and find a separate identity, the thrill of rebellion, adventure. They can't date, drink or dance, so they might as well Daesh.
This thought is what drove me to scale that wall. I dropped prayer, stopped feeling guilty for not praying. I drank alcohol, in moderation like most people do in the west, and I didn't instantly turn into an alcoholic. I dropped the need to cover to my ankles and wrists, and wore regular clothes. Bacon. I mean, seriously, it's bacon, I don't have to explain how good it was. I turned to look back at the wall from the other side, and it was...a relief. I relief to lose that fear of apostasy. To realize there was no such thing, it was purely in my mind. The ideas that had worn a groove in my mind, the guilt, the anxiety, the self flagellation for being a bad Muslim, all were gone.
And now, looking in the rear view mirror, I cannot recall what that felt like. I can't recall what believing used to feel like, because it's not as if there's an absence. It's not like I miss it. No, in its place has come a more robust understanding of humanity, philosophy, history, human nature and yes, even of religion.
A realization that the future is everything. There is no heaven or hell. Or rather, we no longer need a heaven and a hell to curb us into moral behavior. We have evolved. We know more of the universe, too much to be afraid of it anymore. We know more of this earth, and we know that every human being is made of exactly the same material. There is no Us, no Them. There is only We. We need to move on. We need to break free. We need to scale the wall so we can push back against the forces that seek to snatch our children's minds and bodies. We need to protect them, we need to inhabit our own intelligence instead of surrender it in the service of an archaic structure of beliefs that make absolutely no sense to follow in this day and age.
We have to break the chains in our own minds in order to do any of this. And it is scary. Especially when you've believed your whole life in the concept of blasphemy. Especially when you know that to openly come out and reject these beliefs would be to risk alienation, to be ostracized and maligned, rejected and alone. And in many cases, dangerous to your own person.
So maybe that is where we should start. By encouraging Muslims to create safe spaces to challenge the logical fallacies and inconsistencies, not between translation to translation, but between Islam and the modern world.
Peter Janecki, who created a machine that converts sewage into clean drinkable water and energy, noted in his TEDMED talk recently that he had to zoom out and look at it not as a garbage problem, but as an energy problem. He had to make the problem bigger in order to come up with a solution.
And I think it's the same with islam. We have to make the problem bigger. Instead of minimizing, we need to blow it up big and examine it and let go of this idea that a sacred text is unchangeable. Or unquestionable. We have to look at it instead as a humanism problem. Is Islam, in the way it is practiced and preached, humanistic enough? In that does it respect the personhood of a human being enough, and if it doesn't, then what can we do about it.
We have to make it ok to walk away. We have to come out of this closet and into the light. Because none of us are safe anymore. And none of the old bandages will hold much longer before it becomes a full on carnage that we only have ourselves to blame for._


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## MrBurns (6 December 2015)

^^^^^That is really excellent^^^^^, our politicians should read it.

Many thanks for posting bellenuit .......


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## noco (6 December 2015)

MrBurns said:


> ^^^^^That is really excellent^^^^^, our politicians should read it.
> 
> Many thanks for posting bellenuit .......




Yes, It is a great article......It is something I have been saying for many years now on this Forum and that is the children are being brainwashed every day in their Islamic schools.

And as this lady states, a moderate Muslim is like a sleeping log until it is aroused....Full of TNT just waiting for the fuse to be set.


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## DB008 (6 December 2015)

*BREAKING: Man With Machete Shouts “This Is For Syria” And Slashes Londoner’s Throat​*


> A machete-wielding man has slashed a man’s throat at a station in London as he shouted “this is for Syria”, reports claim.
> 
> A man was stabbed in the ticket hall at Leytonstone station this evening by another man who witnesses say shouted “This is for Syria” as he slashed his throat. Police said they used a taser on the suspect as he threatened others with a knife.
> 
> ...





http://katm.co.uk/index.php/breaking-man-with-machete-shouts-this-is-for-syria-and-stabs-londoner/​


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## Wysiwyg (6 December 2015)

I notice the Planned Parenthood "mass murder" got shuffled aside by the Islamic terrorist "mass murder". France attack triggered what had been prepared for? There are others in waiting? The act of terrorism is the far greater fear.

That knife attacker in London was surely tipped over the edge by the Poms voting yea on joining the air strikes in Syria. Thankfully he didn't have access to a gun.


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## noco (6 December 2015)

Here is more evidence of brainwashing among all Muslim people.

Maybe there could be an uprising in the Islamic world for a majority of moderates to say enough is enough.


https://www.youtube.com/embed/6-3X5hIFXYU

MUSLIM WOMAN TELLS THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM.......Log on to that site when this U-Tube is finished.


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## Wysiwyg (7 December 2015)

"Propagating islam peacefully" in Great Britain. From the 8 minute mark.

[video]youtu.be/JyOAhn7KYCo[/video]


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## Tisme (7 December 2015)

> How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
> 
> A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
> 
> Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.




Winston Churchill 116 years ago


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## Tisme (7 December 2015)

I think there has to be a change in the way we hand over our community to subsets. It may well be appeasement and public service protocol, but I don't think it is healthy for any "community" to be given individual treatment ... we are told that migrants aren't selected on the basis of creed, but that tin ear seems to evaporate once the muslims set up their poverty ghettos which be become exclusion zones.


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## SirRumpole (7 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> I think there has to be a change in the way we hand over our community to subsets. It may well be appeasement and public service protocol, but I don't think it is healthy for any "community" to be given individual treatment ... we are told that migrants aren't selected on the basis of creed, but that tin ear seems to evaporate once the muslims set up their poverty ghettos which be become exclusion zones.




Yes, very true.

Once police can't go into places like Bankstown as they once couldn't go into Redfern then it's time to start taking a different tack, like some planning actions that would reduce the ghetto quality; eg refusing planning submissions for mosques and putting up police stations instead.


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## luutzu (7 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> Winston Churchill 116 years ago




Churchill was too smart to say, and believe, stuff like that. Churchill the Politician, yea.


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## luutzu (7 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> I think there has to be a change in the way we hand over our community to subsets. It may well be appeasement and public service protocol, but I don't think it is healthy for any "community" to be given individual treatment ... we are told that migrants aren't selected on the basis of creed, but that tin ear seems to evaporate once the muslims set up their poverty ghettos which be become exclusion zones.




If people, say White people, get nervous and don't want to go into ethnic ghettos... who's to blame there?


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## SirRumpole (7 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> If people, say White people, get nervous and don't want to go into ethnic ghettos... who's to blame there?




In a free country anyone should be able to go into public areas in any part of the country without fear of being attacked, and it's up to the police to defend that right.


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## luutzu (7 December 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> In a free country anyone should be able to go into public areas in any part of the country without fear of being attacked, and it's up to the police to defend that right.




Yes, True. But you're assuming that non-Muslims or non-XEthnic visitor would be attacked when they step into XEthnic "area". That's absurd.

I walk and shop and bank in Lakemba, I haven't been attacked. And I'm not exactly the natives here right?

That's not to say there are no crime or all people are law-abiding... You can't say that of any place in any country. But to think ethnic people etch out their own niche and the police or other groups can't come in... reading the wrong papers me think.


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## Tisme (7 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> Yes, True. But you're assuming that non-Muslims or non-XEthnic visitor would be attacked when they step into XEthnic "area". That's absurd.
> 
> I walk and shop and bank in Lakemba, I haven't been attacked. And I'm not exactly the natives here right?
> 
> That's not to say there are no crime or all people are law-abiding... You can't say that of any place in any country. But to think ethnic people etch out their own niche and the police or other groups can't come in... reading the wrong papers me think.




You look like an Indonesian or are you white?

It's only a matter of time before Lakemba will become too hot to risk one's life. We are not isolated from what has happened in Europe.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/armed-gangs-on-rampage/2005/12/12/1134236005902.html

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...multiculturalism/story-fn59niix-1226031793805

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/hundreds-gather-at-proislam-rally-in-lakemba-20150123-12x931.html


With Arab Muslims it's everyone else's problem and they are pure of heart.


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## luutzu (7 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> You look like an Indonesian or are you white?
> 
> It's only a matter of time before Lakemba will become too hot to risk one's life. We are not isolated from what has happened in Europe.
> 
> ...




There are actually some White people in the area too. Some of them doesn't seem to mind doing the same things - shopping, walking down the street - as other non Natives or the Native does in the area.

We talk as though there are no gangs and hooligans or organised crimes or terrorists in White or non-Muslim community.

Anyway, we good they bad.


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## Tisme (7 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> T
> 
> Anyway, we good they bad.





And you are demonstrably a good person


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## luutzu (7 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> And you are demonstrably a good person




That would depend on whom you ask and whether they think I'm part of their "us" or their "them" right?

Should we all be blamed or honoured for what our country or for what other people who look like us do, whether they declare it's in our name or not?


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## SirRumpole (7 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> Should we all be blamed or honoured for what our country or for what other people who look like us do, whether they declare it's in our name or not?




It's a matter of how you sort the good from the bad.

You can wait until someone goes on a killing rampage or you can take some preventative action, collect intelligence, and don't let the potential enemy get too strong or too numerous.


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## Tisme (7 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> That would depend on whom you ask and whether they think I'm part of their "us" or their "them" right?
> 
> Should we all be blamed or honoured for what our country or for what other people who look like us do, whether they declare it's in our name or not?




We're a nation, so we collectively share the spit and spoils. That's why separatists like Muslims grate on our psyche: we are by and large a good nation with good citizenry. 

Many of my friends don't agree with my arguments, but they are still friends. If they turned up at the door selling Islam, Amway or any of those other highly disagreeable products I would probably make myself absent for a time, to give them time to come to their senses. I would suggest you must be of good character to put up with the ratbag element here, which of cause includes everyone except me, myself and I.


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## DB008 (7 December 2015)

*Saudi must stop financing fundamentalist mosques abroad: Merkel's deputy​*




> BERLIN: German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel on Sunday said Saudi Arabia must stop financing fundamentalist mosques abroad which are accused of breeding extremism.
> 
> “From Saudi Arabia, Wahhabi mosques are financed throughout the world,” said Gabriel.“In Germany many extremists considered dangerous persons emerge from these communities,” he told the newspaper Bild am Sonntag.
> 
> ...




http://tribune.com.pk/story/1004949/saudi-must-stop-financing-fundamentalist-mosques-abroad-merkels-deputy/​


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## DB008 (7 December 2015)

More on Saudi...


*Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It​*



> Black Daesh, white Daesh. The former slits throats, kills, stones, cuts off hands, destroys humanity’s common heritage and despises archaeology, women and non-Muslims. The latter is better dressed and neater but does the same things. The Islamic State; Saudi Arabia. In its struggle against terrorism, the West wages war on one, but shakes hands with the other. This is a mechanism of denial, and denial has a price: preserving the famous strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia at the risk of forgetting that the kingdom also relies on an alliance with a religious clergy that produces, legitimizes, spreads, preaches and defends Wahhabism, the ultra-puritanical form of Islam that Daesh feeds on.
> 
> Wahhabism, a messianic radicalism that arose in the 18th century, hopes to restore a fantasized caliphate centered on a desert, a sacred book, and two holy sites, Mecca and Medina. Born in massacre and blood, it manifests itself in a surreal relationship with women, a prohibition against non-Muslims treading on sacred territory, and ferocious religious laws. That translates into an obsessive hatred of imagery and representation and therefore art, but also of the body, nakedness and freedom. Saudi Arabia is a Daesh that has made it.
> 
> The West’s denial regarding Saudi Arabia is striking: It salutes the theocracy as its ally but pretends not to notice that it is the world’s chief ideological sponsor of Islamist culture. The younger generations of radicals in the so-called Arab world were not born jihadists. They were suckled in the bosom of Fatwa Valley, a kind of Islamist Vatican with a vast industry that produces theologians, religious laws, books, and aggressive editorial policies and media campaigns




More on link below...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html​


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## DB008 (7 December 2015)

*WikiLeaks cables portray Saudi Arabia as a cash machine for terrorists​*



> Saudi Arabia is the world's largest source of funds for Islamist militant groups such as the Afghan Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba – but the Saudi government is reluctant to stem the flow of money, according to Hillary Clinton.
> 
> "More needs to be done since Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaida, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups," says a secret December 2009 paper signed by the US secretary of state. Her memo urged US diplomats to redouble their efforts to stop Gulf money reaching extremists in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
> 
> ...




More on link below...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-saudi-terrorist-funding​


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## luutzu (7 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> We're a nation, so we collectively share the spit and spoils. That's why separatists like Muslims grate on our psyche: we are by and large a good nation with good citizenry.
> 
> Many of my friends don't agree with my arguments, but they are still friends. If they turned up at the door selling Islam, Amway or any of those other highly disagreeable products I would probably make myself absent for a time, to give them time to come to their senses. I would suggest you must be of good character to put up with the ratbag element here, which of cause includes everyone except me, myself and I.




Aren't all Man brothers? It's quite literal in a Biblical sense isn't it?

Australia is a great country with good people. Even its racists are patriotic for the right reasons. So what's not to like?

I mean, some might have too much anger and weren't brought up right, but the vast majority of what we'd call a racist or anti-Islam/Muslim... xenophobic I guess... they "dislike" others for the right reasons - just they got their facts wrong. Can't fault people for that.

If a person believe that Islam is the root of evil, a death cult; If they believe Islam followers are therefore terrorists out to destroy the world, subjugate women, intolerant towards others, are funding terrorists with their Halal, hates democracy etc.... well those are good reasons to hate something. IF the facts proves true.

If they dislike refugees or welfare recipients thinking refugees are here to one day cause terrorism or otherwise just leech off the country's generosity; or that all welfare recipients are parasites and cheats and draining the national treasury... Those are good reasons, and good people would dislike such things.

IF the reasons are genuine; if they honestly dislike refugees and welfare for such reason... what is to hate about such people?

So we try to bring them the facts, make the case. And if they listen and think about it... if it makes sense to them, minds might change.. the heart would have already been in the right place.

----

What I don't like are those psychotic, amoral "statesman" who willingly work with and do deals with tyrants and dictators and terrorists.. all as long as it serve their interests. Then turn around and give liberal speeches about morality and freedom and stuff.

And I don't like them farkers who put their people, and the world, in danger... Then when danger and death hits home, use those death to further their own political objectives.

Then those well spoken, well paid, well dressed and well titled prostitutes who know better but sell out their own conscience for a few silver coins - and in the process selling out their country and their people.

Anyway...


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## luutzu (7 December 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> It's a matter of how you sort the good from the bad.
> 
> You can wait until someone goes on a killing rampage or you can take some preventative action, collect intelligence, and don't let the potential enemy get too strong or too numerous.




There are no Pre-Crime Unit so yea, we'd have to wait until a crime has taken place or is in the process of taking place to find the perpetrator guilty and execute them or something. 

Or we can build concentration camps; or use drones and blow up people we think are terrorists then define terrorist are someone who also say bad stuff about us and who we think is an imminent danger to our safety then define "imminent" as "maybe, one day, in the future some day" they'd do something, maybe...

One will create a few unhappy people and break all kind of constitutional argle bargle, maybe push aside a few treasured value and sense of justice; the others is to keep doing what we do and blame them for being so sensitive about us sending our troops overseas liberating their people and maybe a relative or two of theirs.

---

I'm guessing there are profilers and agents we got all over the usual suspects and their friends place. But no matter how much metadata you collect or spies you got out there... we can't be successful and caught all of them all of the time.

Maybe 15 years so far isn't that clear; but then if we count British imperialism in the ME it'd be some 200 years... maybe one ought to conclude that if the aim is to win, more bombs and deadlier police and higher security won't win us this war.

We're definitely not going to lose to the terrorists, and not to any ME countries. BUt this war might break national unity; drain a lot of money towards "securing" everything around and inside our borders and give our masters of war unlimited power and resource to go offshore and take the fights to them enemies everywhere there somewhere.

With these, we might not have enough to educate the kids properly; they might become xenophobic idiots hating and fearing each other; and abroad not making too many friends with the countries we operates in; and to put the cherry on top, tick off a nuclear power, driving it into the arms of another nuclear power - but one that's been growing, resting and making friends all over the place with real money.


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## qldfrog (8 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> I'm guessing there are profilers and agents we got all over the usual suspects and their friends place. But no matter how much metadata you collect or spies you got out there... we can't be successful and caught all of them all of the time.
> 
> Maybe 15 years so far isn't that clear; but then if we count British imperialism in the ME it'd be some 200 years... maybe one ought to conclude that if the aim is to win, more bombs and deadlier police and higher security won't win us this war.
> 
> ...



All good reason not to accept the seed of future problem in a country which is economically going fast against a wall, this way we will be able to send people to uni so that theyu can discuss good leftist theory, and live in lalaland.
something which worries me today Luutzu:
based on your dedication to portrait any muslim as a saint and refugees as the future of Australia (how lucky these Germans must feel):
I am worried by and I quote your use of:"So *we *try to bring them the facts, make the case. And if they listen and think about it... if it makes sense to them, minds might change.. "
"*WE*" that would explain a lot: why be an individual free spirit and use logical and cartesian thinking when you can follow a party, an organisation or just an employer...We???? aka the Saudis? the Islam council ? The "green"?
We? The fews blessed by the light? I would be disappointed but that would explain your dedication


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## Tisme (8 December 2015)

Ruskies Isis and Turkey:






Another Vietnam?


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## Tisme (8 December 2015)

Hmmmm


http://www.australianlibertyalliance.org.au/


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## luutzu (8 December 2015)

qldfrog said:


> All good reason not to accept the seed of future problem in a country which is economically going fast against a wall, this way we will be able to send people to uni so that theyu can discuss good leftist theory, and live in lalaland.
> something which worries me today Luutzu:
> based on your dedication to portrait any muslim as a saint and refugees as the future of Australia (how lucky these Germans must feel):
> I am worried by and I quote your use of:"So *we *try to bring them the facts, make the case. And if they listen and think about it... if it makes sense to them, minds might change.. "
> ...




It's Leftist dreaming in lalaland that make Western democracies what it was, and somewhat still is.
You're not going to tell me the Capitalists voluntarily went ahead with such nonsense as prohibiting child labour, work safety, equal rights, voting for women and the Coloured people; or want to provide social security/welfare so the poor can have a chance, or those citizens in dire strait won't spiral down towards homelessness.

Look at what happen when the NeoCons and their market is king, invisible hand economics take over some 40 years ago. Every man for himself; the rich got rich because they're talented and work hard; the poor got poor because they're lazy and stay poor because they take drugs... not at all because their wages were freezed or declined even though their productivity goes up; not because public funding were cut; or that both parents need to work a couple jobs each to make ends meet... 

When everything that's worth selling the gov't sells. Smart move selling monopolies and infrastructure all citizens depends on. 

---

I never said all Muslims are saints, or all Muslims or all any group are one way or another. 

I never said refugees are the future of any country. I said that from the little I do read into it, it has been shown that refugees, after an average of some 10 to 20 years, make a positive contribution to the country that took them in. Before those tangible, measurable benefits kicks in, they benefit by doing jobs most citizens don't want to do, getting paid at rates people don't want to be paid at.

And yes, Germany is benefiting from their recent refugee intake. I saw an interview where an economist said Germany still have a manufacturing base, its population is aging and new refugees and low wages are a welcoming economic boost. Countries like the US, and I guess Australia, have less of any manufacturing so their generosity towards refugees are a lot less.

It's a bit much to blame refugees for our economic woes when we see big corporations paying practically nothing on their profits. 

And why would refugees more likely than any other group to become terrorists? Because they're Muslims? They just escaped from war and terrorists, who in their right mind would then risk or throw all the potentials, the peace and security their family had just been given and commit terrorism?

I use "we" because using "I" would be presumptuous. That and I don't do anything but sit on my behind all day; that and all these stuff I write I learn from other much smarter people than myself. So it's more honest to use "we" rather than I. But no, I don't belong to any political party, not even the Greens.


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## qldfrog (8 December 2015)

how can this love of refugees (not to say illegal immigrants) be compatible with the anticapitalist view is beyond me and a sign of profund ignorance of the reality..
Wild capitalism is the only winner of uncontrolled borders.
Last week end elections in France are showing to the left what the real grassroot struggling class feel and is subjected by migration AND mate's capitalism.
Voters for the far right are not your typical liberals members and the far right there is the main party for youngest voters.
Of course this party policies are rubbish, there is no way back for Europe but still better than the corrupt duopoly in place and that party has a clear position on migration.
Better dying fighting than enslaved


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## luutzu (8 December 2015)

qldfrog said:


> how can this love of refugees (not to say illegal immigrants) be compatible with the anticapitalist view is beyond me and a sign of profund ignorance of the reality..
> Wild capitalism is the only winner of uncontrolled borders.
> Last week end elections in France are showing to the left what the real grassroot struggling class feel and is subjected by migration AND mate's capitalism.
> Voters for the far right are not your typical liberals members and the far right there is the main party for youngest voters.
> ...




Who's proposing wild uncontrolled borders? Not me. 

Refugees are vetted. Process takes up to two years. They have to be found to be genuine refugees, and we should all know those tests aren't "just tell us you're scared of the bombs over your head" kind of evidence right?

We shouldn't talk about us being humane, us being liberators, us being good people... when we tell those seeking refuge to shove off and go back to where they came from because we can't be asked to check their stories, can't take the chance that one day they might turn out to be bad people or terrorists.

Should we talk about us being liberal, us caring for one another, us being united as a people... then wouldn't mind if welfare are cut, social services to the needy among us cut... all just in case those "parasites" abuse it, and if not parasites, then they ought to know it's every man for himself.

There's a little party in Germany during the 1930s and 40s that think the same way. And they got their chance at power to carry out many of those policies too. Jews? Look at their funny nose and blah blah. Disabled people? Mental handicap people? Gays? Well they didn't want their great society to be eating away by such parasites and obviously evil people did they?


----------



## dutchie (16 December 2015)

Clover Moore (Mayoress of Sydney City) shows how out of touch she is.... 

Sydney siege ‘wasn’t terrorist event’, Lord Mayor Clover Moore says

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...lover-moore-says/story-fni0xqrc-1227645786544


----------



## Tisme (16 December 2015)

dutchie said:


> Clover Moore (Mayoress of Sydney City) shows how out of touch she is....
> 
> Sydney siege ‘wasn’t terrorist event’, Lord Mayor Clover Moore says
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...lover-moore-says/story-fni0xqrc-1227645786544




Not good form to offend our guests, it's just not cricket. I'm sure if we were seeking refuge in ISISland and drawing on their social services, building churches and wearing our national uniform, they too would be reluctant to label us because of the barbaric and devious actions of one, two, a few hundred expats?


----------



## DB008 (19 December 2015)

*Germany shuts down mosque over ‘ISIS sponsoring & recruiting’​*


> German authorities have raided and shut down a mosque in Stuttgart on grounds of promoting violence and raising money for terrorist organizations such as Islamic State militants. Authorities said that some of its parishioners traveled to fight for IS to Syria.
> 
> Police raided a mosque and cultural center called the Islamic Educational and Cultural Center Mesdschid Sahabe (MSM) in the southwestern city of Stuttgart on Thursday. Computers, data storage devices, smartphones, documents were seized, while the center was closed, said Reinhold Gall, the interior minister of Baden-Wurttemberg state.
> 
> ...





https://www.rt.com/news/326342-germany-shuts-isis-mosque/​


----------



## Tisme (22 December 2015)

Why bother coming to Australia if it's not up to scratch?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lia-railed-against-West-s-corrupt-values.html


----------



## SirRumpole (22 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> Why bother coming to Australia if it's not up to scratch?
> 
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lia-railed-against-West-s-corrupt-values.html




Oh dear. Why did we let him in ?


----------



## Tisme (22 December 2015)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh dear. Why did we let him in ?




Why do we allow him to stay?


----------



## SirRumpole (22 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> Why do we allow him to stay?




Political correctness, fear of repercussions (terrorism, the Muslim vote). 

Once it gets that far, the situation is out of control.


----------



## DB008 (23 December 2015)

*Two arrested in Sydney counter-terrorism raids, Woolloomooloo naval base among locations discussed​*



> Two men have been arrested in counter-terrorism raids in Sydney after police thwarted what they say were plots to attack locations including a naval base and police headquarters.
> 
> *Abdullah Salihy*, 24, was arrested at Memorial Avenue in Merrylands and *Mohammad Alamouie*, 20, was arrested in Bankstown.
> 
> ...





http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/two-arrested-as-part-of-operation-appleby/7049918​

Is anyone surprised of the names?


----------



## Tisme (23 December 2015)

DB008 said:


> *Two arrested in Sydney counter-terrorism raids, Woolloomooloo naval base among locations discussed​*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah Serbian extraction beak dealing with Muslims ... that can't be good for the terrorists.


----------



## DB008 (24 December 2015)

Well, looks like Germany (and much of Europe), is in the poo-poo.


I think in 10 - 20 years time, Germany won't be the country that we see it as today.



*Germany manhunt for 12 people who entered country on same stolen passports as Paris attackers​*


> A manhunt has been launched in Germany for 12 people who used fake Syrian passports to enter the country and then disappeared, according to a report in a German tabloid.
> 
> The documentation is believed to have been taken by ISIS when they captured the Syrian city of Raqqa in 2013 and supplied to migrants by the same source as those used by two of the Paris attackers, the Bild newspaper claimed.
> 
> ...





http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-manhunt-for-12-people-who-entered-country-on-same-stolen-passports-as-paris-attackers-a6783846.html​


----------



## noco (26 December 2015)

Well worth a read.

*Subject: Fwd: FW: A German's view----Interesting
A German's view,


Please take a moment of your time and read this article.  A German's
View on Islam - worth reading. This is by  far the best explanation of
the  Muslim terrorist situation I have  ever read. His
references to past history are accurate and clear.  Not long, easy to
understand, and well worth the read.
The author  of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and
well-respected  psychiatrist.


A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to orld War II, owned
a number of large industries and
estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer
he gave an  guide our attitude toward fanaticism.  'Very few people
were
true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and
many  more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought
the Nazis were  bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let
it all happen. Then,
before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the  end of
the world had come.’  ‘My family lost everything. I ended up in a
concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.


‘We are told again and again by 'experts'
and 'talking heads' that Islam is a religion of peace and that the
vast majority  of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this
unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is
meaningless fluff meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow
diminish  the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the
name of  Islam.’


‘The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at
this  moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is  the
fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the
fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups
throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire  continent in an
Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead,  murder, or honour-kill.
It is the fanatics who take over mosque  after mosque. It is the
fanatics who zealously spread the stoning  and hanging of rape victims
and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who  teach their young to kill and
to become suicide bombers.’


The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent
majority,' is cowed and extraneous.  Communist Russia was comprised of
Russians who just wanted to live  in peace, yet the Russian Communists
were responsible for the  murder of about 20 million people. The
peaceful majority were  irrelevant. China's huge
population was peaceful as well, but  Chinese Communists managed to kill a
staggering 70 million people.’


‘The average Japanese individual prior to World War II  was not a
warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered  its way
across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included  the
systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed  by
sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda, which
collapsed
into butchery? Could it not be said that the majority of  Rwandans
were 'peace loving'?


‘History lessons are often  incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all
our powers of reason, we often miss the most  basic and uncomplicated
of points: peace-loving Muslims have been  made irrelevant by their
silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become  our
enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from  Germany,
they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own  them, and the
end of their world will have begun.’


‘Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs,
Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many
others have died because the peaceful majority  did not
speak up until it was too late.’


‘Now Islamic prayers have been  introduced in Toronto and other public
schools in Ontario, and, yes,
in  Ottawa too,  while
,
the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?).  The
Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country  until
the  fanatics move in.’


‘In Australia, and indeed in many countries around the world, many of
the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them.
Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and
at other food items in your local supermarket.  Food on aircraft
have the halal emblem just to appease the  privileged minority who are
now rapidly expanding within the  nation's shores.’


‘In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate  and there are
now dozens of "no-go" zones within major
cities  across the country that the police force dare not  intrude
upon.  Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in
those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.’


‘As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay  attention to the only
group that counts - the fanatics who
threaten  our way of life.’


Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious , is contributing
to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.


Extend yourself a bit and send  this on. Let us hope that thousands
world-wide read this, think about it, and send it  on before it's too
late, and we are silenced because we were silent!!!
*


----------



## basilio (26 December 2015)

Noco do you ever,* ever* choose to check the credibility of the stuff you post on these forums? 

Again the post you just put up allegedly coming from *"Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and
well-respected psychiatrist."* is a complete B/S .  The smallest check of the net would have discovered that. 

OK so some dark nasty person tried to dress up  an anti Islamic story with a serious sounding originator.  However if anyone is interested in a breakdown of the story check out another view.

Cheers




> The Honeymoon is Over
> 
> Blog Archive
> 
> ...




http://honeymoonover.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/viral-claptrap-germans-view-on-islam.html


----------



## noco (26 December 2015)

basilio said:


> Noco do you ever,* ever* choose to check the credibility of the stuff you post on these forums?
> 
> Again the post you just put up allegedly coming from *"Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and
> well-respected psychiatrist."* is a complete B/S .  The smallest check of the net would have discovered that.
> ...




I read your link to the 'HONEY MOON IS OVER" and there does not seem to be a character who is prepared to put his name to it....It also appears to go back to December 2009....A lot can change in the world in 6 years.

I refer you to my high lights....So do  you personally disagree of what has been written irrespective of the fact that it may have been written by Paul Merek.


Here follows the original viral email:

Subject: A German's View on Islam.

*Whatever this writer's credentials might or might not be, what is written here is the way it is. No-one can afford to remain silent.*

Subject: A German's View on Islam

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read. The author of this email is purported to be Dr. Emanuel Tanay, a well known and well respected psychiatrist.

I could find no affirmation nor denial of the validity of the letter in Snopes.com.


----------



## basilio (26 December 2015)

Noco the post you offered as an explanation of the current situation with Islam is simplistic and incendiary. In a nutshell it says that Islam is now a fanatic dominated institution which is on the march around the world to destroy and dominate our way of life -  *unless we stop them first.*

*It's a call to arms Noco. *A call to hate, to  totally  distrust and to destroy everything to do with the Islamic religion because it is allegedly now in the hands of fanatics.

It's calling for a Christian Crusade.  Do you want to see the outcomes of the last 6 Crusades ? Not pretty.

I could go into detail of the numerous lies and mis statements throughout the story. But the core is fear, hate and starting a war to cleanse the earth of Islam before they do it to us. 

It's a poisonous dangerous lie.


----------



## wayneL (26 December 2015)

basilio said:


> Noco the post you offered as an explanation of the current situation with Islam is simplistic and incendiary. In a nutshell it says that Islam is now a fanatic dominated institution which is on the march around the world to destroy and dominate our way of life -  *unless we stop them first.*
> 
> *It's a call to arms Noco. *A call to hate, to  totally  distrust and to destroy everything to do with the Islamic religion because it is allegedly now in the hands of fanatics.
> 
> ...




So Islam is "the religion of peace", full of goodwill and peace to all men, spreading love and kindness wherever they go?

I don't think that's quite accurate either basilio. Let's not be deluded by leftist naÃ¯vetÃ©. Islam, to a greater or lesser extent, is presenting a problem. It's partly our own doing on several fronts, but Islam is not all about fairy floss and angel dust mate. Elements of Islam are indeed controlled by extremists. Stuffed if I know how that escaped your notice... our the Guardian's.


----------



## basilio (26 December 2015)

Did I ever say Islam was ever about fairy floss or angel dust ?  Yes we have a serious problem with religious fanatics.  ISIS is well up there as a major problem. My point is *NOT *confabulating  a virulent group of people with  every person who is a Muslim. 

Go that way and we are starting a world wide religious war.  In fact this is* exactly* what ISIS is trying to achieve. To turn all Muslimis into defenders of ISIS because the rest of the world hates and fears all Muslims.


----------



## wayneL (26 December 2015)

basilio said:


> Did I ever say Islam was ever about fairy floss or angel dust ?  Yes we have a serious problem with religious fanatics.  ISIS is well up there as a major problem. My point is *NOT *confabulating  a virulent group of people with  every person who is a Muslim.
> 
> Go that way and we are starting a world wide religious war.  In fact this is* exactly* what ISIS is trying to achieve. To turn all Muslimis into defenders of ISIS because the rest of the world hates and fears all Muslims.




They will be successful in that endeavour until purportedly moderate Muslims renounce the actions of ISIS and other fanatics, separating themselves ideologically. There is some motion on this, but not enough yet.

Ergo, the article is not far off the mark.


----------



## noco (26 December 2015)

wayneL said:


> They will be successful in that endeavour until purportedly moderate Muslims renounce the actions of ISIS and other fanatics, separating themselves ideologically. There is some motion on this, but not enough yet.
> 
> Ergo, the article is not far off the mark.




I think basilio is getting carried away with himself in trying to discredit the author whether it be Paul; Meker or that other guy....The fact of the matter is the article irrespective of the source is factual and it is an indication the Islamic radicals will be defeated over time.

Some people are very naive and dense.......They will not always accept the facts as they are.

For basilio trying to discredit me is incidental and is just another attempt of character assassination....It does not work basilio.


----------



## luutzu (26 December 2015)

wayneL said:


> So Islam is "the religion of peace", full of goodwill and peace to all men, spreading love and kindness wherever they go?
> 
> I don't think that's quite accurate either basilio. Let's not be deluded by leftist naÃ¯vetÃ©. Islam, to a greater or lesser extent, is presenting a problem. It's partly our own doing on several fronts, but Islam is not all about fairy floss and angel dust mate. Elements of Islam are indeed controlled by extremists. Stuffed if I know how that escaped your notice... our the Guardian's.




So all these terrorism stuff... if we take Islam out of the equation, will the same group of people commit terrorism in whatever name they then call it?

If they would, then what does Islam got to do with it?

I think we'd all be pretty upset if the Chinese or the Israelis or the Yanks or the Poms talk about replacing our leadership then send jets over our skies and bombing the bad guys on our soil, forcing us to flee to bloody New Zealand or Tasmania, haha...

The only people that get to change our leaders and force policies on us are Uncle Rupert and his empire, the Packers and the backdoor dealings in Canberra. Aside from those, no one else can tell us who our Captain is and what's good for us. Alright?


Anyway, just as we shouldn't justify crimes and violence perpetrated on us... we shouldn't justify violence we perpetrate on others.

To say that whatever azz our boots kick or our missiles shreds is acceptable because we're the good guys... well that's not much of an argument since they don't think they're the bad guys either.


----------



## orr (26 December 2015)

noco said:


> Well worth a read            *.???*
> 
> 
> It is the
> ...




Considering Abbott's and the Christian rights fall from influence we can be assured that we as a society are  on the path from intolerence and toward social cohesion, this being an anathema  it seems to fanatics of all stripes; a big step in the right direction. 

Surely Tony could give George Pell to aid the aims of justice a double back from rome on his bicycle to avoid air travel health terrors ? Tony seems so quiet on the Institutional Child Abuse RC issue... and Cory ... and Eric...

Are oysters halal??? they're certainly not kosher ... goat prices are up but you can tell from reading the above here, that they haven't got any smarter.
I mean;
_‘The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at
this moment in history._........from the 4th paragraph...
 Really do they??? Care to name them and the groups they _rule _ so we can get a percentage of influence noco? or any of your fellow xenoph(... oops) travellers.

I was in a Lebanese bakery yesterday, Xmas day, arfternoon. I'll have to admit I felt terribly unthreatened by the experience even with the halal sticker on the window.  Mmmm .... what would I rather give my children ?? An unpunished violent sexual rape by the clergy.  Or a spinich and cheese triangle.


----------



## noco (27 December 2015)

orr said:


> Considering Abbott's and the Christian rights fall from influence we can be assured that we as a society are  on the path from intolerence and toward social cohesion, this being an anathema  it seems to fanatics of all stripes; a big step in the right direction.
> 
> Surely Tony could give George Pell to aid the aims of justice a double back from rome on his bicycle to avoid air travel health terrors ? Tony seems so quiet on the Institutional Child Abuse RC issue... and Cory ... and Eric...
> 
> ...




Some of you people just don't get it do you?

The Islamic movement want World domination whether they are moderates  or radicals......The Islamic movement brainwash the kids in Muslims schools in Australia with the Koran 5 times a day.....That is, if you are a Christian or an infidel you must be eliminated......The Islamic movement want Sharia law through out the World ...Now I ask you the kids of today will be radicals tomorrow.......The radicals are the Islamic army in small and large cells scattered around the world and the West have been stupid enough to allow the flood of Muslim refugees to enter....They don't assimilate and they breed like rabbits.
Western Sydney has become a ghetto for Muslims and it will come a time when you won't be able to enter their community...They will have their Sharia law just as they have done in some UK towns...Even the the police daren't enter these areas.

The West needs to wake up before it is too late.


----------



## MrBurns (27 December 2015)

noco is right Muslims have an agenda to dominate wherever they live.


----------



## wayneL (27 December 2015)

orr said:


> Considering Abbott's and the Christian rights fall from influence we can be assured that we as a society are  on the path from intolerence and toward social cohesion, this being an anathema  it seems to fanatics of all stripes; a big step in the right direction.
> 
> Surely Tony could give George Pell to aid the aims of justice a double back from rome on his bicycle to avoid air travel health terrors ? Tony seems so quiet on the Institutional Child Abuse RC issue... and Cory ... and Eric...
> 
> ...




Typical of the left to present such a biased false dichotomy. Really Orr, that's a ludicrous fallacy.

Muslims, in fact any group, once they reach a critical mass in numbers will agitate for change to their cultural biases. The question is, do we, a notionally Christian society want that change. Mate,I don't mind baklava and kebabs, but you can stick Sharia law where the sun don't shine. 

I like our society and I t think we have a right to choose the extent of any outside influences.

You might disingenuously invoke sesquipedalian tags you don't quite know the true meaning of, such as xenophobia, but that just a straw man.

Xenophobia is not a true problem in this country


----------



## explod (27 December 2015)

wayneL said:


> Typical of the left to present such a biased false dichotomy. Really Orr, that's a ludicrous fallacy.
> 
> Muslims, in fact any group, once they reach a critical mass in numbers will agitate for change to their cultural biases. The question is, do we, a notionally Christian society want that change. Mate,I don't mind baklava and kebabs, but you can stick Sharia law where the sun don't shine.
> 
> ...




Arrh well,  hope you had a good one Wayne. 

Anyhow things looking up for the Seppo's. In the paper today,  "US arms deal up by $13 billion"... over the last 12 months even as the global weapons market remained flat.   And we find emerging slips that a lot of this equipment is filtering into the so called enemies. The Jihad. 

So not much changes,  as old man Rothchild' s bank financed both sides of conflicts we continue to move on with the control of the sheeple under the icon of the medicine mans crucifix,  media manipulation and have a great day sucked in by the cricket against the kids.


----------



## basilio (27 December 2015)

Yeh must be right. Can't be too careful about non believers. Never know what might happen. 

Why don't we just jump straight to the  old fashioned Red Indian solution ? Kill em all and let God sort out the goodies from the baddies........


----------



## basilio (27 December 2015)

While we are contemplating how we deal with the 23.4% of the worlds human beings who have a different religion it could be worth seeing how life is under ISIS and how some people (Muslims in fact)  have responded.



> 'You will stay here until you die': one woman's rescue from Isis
> 
> *When a Syrian family in southern Turkey heard a young Yazidi woman crying after she was captured by Isis, they spent months plotting to free her – then risked everything in the attempt*
> 
> ...



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/26/arezu-yazidi-woman-rescued-isis-neighbours-raqqa


----------



## wayneL (27 December 2015)

basilio said:


> Yeh must be right. Can't be too careful about non believers. Never know what might happen.
> 
> Why don't we just jump straight to the  old fashioned Red Indian solution ? Kill em all and let God sort out the goodies from the baddies........




Such purulent thinking, so interesting that one so eager to take offense at trifles, would so casually say something so utterly offensive. So typical of the obnoxious double standard of the left.

I don't recall anyone suggesting genocide (apart from you of course basilio). Who would make the kebabs then dammit?

The fact is, limiting or vetting who we admit to our society has nothing to do with red Indians (a term they consider offensive btw. So be offended and demand an apology from yourself Mr PC). It is about preserving those parts of our culture we want to keep while enriching it via moderate infusions from elsewhere. Wholesale immigration Does not achieve that


----------



## basilio (27 December 2015)

wayneL said:


> Such purulent thinking, so interesting that one so eager to take offense at trifles, would so casually say something so utterly offensive. So typical of the obnoxious double standard of the left.
> 
> I don't recall anyone suggesting genocide (apart from you of course basilio). Who would make the kebabs then dammit?
> 
> The fact is, limiting or vetting who we admit to our society has nothing to do with red Indians (a term they consider offensive btw. So be offended and demand an apology from yourself Mr PC). It is about preserving those parts of our culture we want to keep while enriching it via moderate infusions from elsewhere. Wholesale immigration Does not achieve that




Clearly, CLEARLY,  *MOST MOST CLEARLY *I should have put in some type of eye roll or similar notation to suggest that the proposal of eliminating 23% of the worlds population was akin to Daniel Defoes solution to the Irish problem.

The reference to the Redskins was again historical (perhaps hysterical ??) and requoting the famed Indian fighters of the day.  But you all realised that didn't you ? You are far too intelligent and well read to be sucked in by such flagrant obnoxious stupidity arn't you ? 

I am unimpressed with the whole  discussion of a 100 year Jhid.  Sounds far too close to  the Crusades to be comfortable. And when Noco and co come out with poisonous dribble totally directed to attacking all Muslims and hastening the start of a Jihad/Crusade I just have to skip to the clearly obvious end game.

The alternative to an unholy war based on a generalised us/them  argument is NOT attacking all Muslims on the basis of their religion. Can we stick to tackling the particular nasties rather than trying to make enemies of a quarter of the worlds people ?




> "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" is a saying often attributed to General Phil Sheridan. In January of 1869, General Sheridan was in camp at Fort Cobb in Indian Territory (now Oklahoma) shortly after George Custer's fight with Black-Kettle's Cheyennes. Turtle Dove, or Toch-a-way, who was a chief of Comanches, trying to impress the General, struck himself in the breast and said "Me, Toch-a-way; me good Indian". The General smiled and answered "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead."
> 
> Phillip Sheridan repeatedly denied ever making such a statement, but several eye witnesses agree that he said it. Sheridan was well known as a bigot and Indian hater, and few that knew him doubted his agreement with the statement. In any case, the statement attributed to Sheridan evolved into the more generalize and powerful proverbial form "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." and became synonymous with the Indian policy of most of the military at that time. This opinion lingered on, and another infamous, Indian fighter made the following incredible remarks at a speech in January of 1886 in New York: "I suppose I should be ashamed to say that I take the Western view of the Indian. I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth." These words were spoken by Theodore Roosevelt less than 15 years before he became President of the United States.




http://everything2.com/title/The+only+good+Indian+is+a+dead+Indian


----------



## wayneL (28 December 2015)

basilio said:


> Clearly, CLEARLY,  *MOST MOST CLEARLY *I should have put in some type of eye roll or similar notation to suggest that the proposal of eliminating 23% of the worlds population was akin to Daniel Defoes solution to the Irish problem.




Oh come on basilio! What you were doing is equating the filtering and limiting of immigrants, to their genocide, the implication that that's what we really want. An argumentative fallacy common with lefties and Guardianistas, taught by the moonbat et al.



> The reference to the Redskins was again historical (perhaps hysterical ??) and requoting the famed Indian fighters of the day.  But you all realised that didn't you ? You are far too intelligent and well read to be sucked in by such flagrant obnoxious stupidity arn't you ?




But you don't see the double standard and obnoxious hypocrisy of your poisonous political extreme, do you? If anyone else dare mention those words formerly used to denote various races, even in a historical context, you and your buddies are jumping up and down like bandicoots in faux outrage, inflaming the minorities concerned and demanding apologies.



> I am unimpressed with the whole  discussion of a 100 year Jhid.  Sounds far too close to  the Crusades to be comfortable. And when Noco and co come out with poisonous dribble totally directed to attacking all Muslims and hastening the start of a Jihad/Crusade I just have to skip to the clearly obvious end game.




I don't imagine too many people would give a crap what you are impressed, or unimpressed with. The fact remains that a Jihad is in place against the West, whether justified or not, and that has nothing to do with any goddam crusade! I am continuously astonished by how you conflate arguments, to bludgeon them into fitting your ideology.

Jihad <> Crusade. Get it?



> The alternative to an unholy war based on a generalised us/them  argument is NOT attacking all Muslims on the basis of their religion. Can we stick to tackling the particular nasties rather than trying to make enemies of a quarter of the worlds people ?




Basilio when so many condone Jihad via their silence, vis a vis unwillingness to condemn the violence of the Jihadists, the whole community, bar a few individuals, remain suspect. That is the pragmatic truth.


----------



## basilio (28 December 2015)

Go for it folks.  You want a war.  Just keep accusing a quarter of the worlds population of being in the thrall of fanatics who want to rule the world in their image. 

That of course is completely different to how the US behaves isn't it ? Democrat, rational, fair, liberal,  and they never blast the bejesus out of people *"they think might be threat at sometime in the future*". Pre emptive warfare I believe it is called.

__________________________________________________


I just finished watching Elizabeth with Geoffry Rush, Cate Blanchett.  Great story and it got me thinking about Queen Elizaebths response to the Catholic/Protestant war in the 1500's.

On the one hand the Spanish and the Catholic Church were very strong on eliminating heresy.  If you didn't believe in the One True Faith you were looking a being the main attraction  at the next open air BBQ.

Elizabeth on the other hand decided that discretion was the better part of valour and a lot more peaceful. She passed the Uniformity Act which established a common English payer book. However she did not attempt to  pry into the conscience of her citizens. If you were trying to overthrow the Queen you went for the high jump  but she did not attempt to attack Catholics for their private, personal beliefs.

Far more wholesome I thought.


----------



## Tom32 (28 December 2015)

wayneL said:


> Basilio when so many condone Jihad via their silence, vis a vis unwillingness to condemn the violence of the Jihadists, the whole community, bar a few individuals, remain suspect. That is the pragmatic truth.




I cannot claim to know many Muslims but of the few I know when the siege was on in Sydney they appeared to be more concerned than I was. One went further than condemning it and was even very angered.

I am not sure what more they could really do in condemning it?

I can only assume most Muslims are similar. Frankly the majority of Muslims have a lot more to loose than we do if the Muslim extremists end up doing something serious in Australia.


----------



## Tisme (28 December 2015)

basilio said:


> Go for it folks.  You want a war.  Just keep accusing a quarter of the worlds population of being in the thrall of fanatics who want to rule the world in their image.
> 
> That of course is completely different to how the US behaves isn't it ? Democrat, rational, fair, liberal,  and they never blast the bejesus out of people *"they think might be threat at sometime in the future*". Pre emptive warfare I believe it is called.
> 
> _.




I suspect the USA, GB and Israel are absent at the moment while they build their respective arsenals in readiness. I also suspect it won't only be the ISIS dudes who get the treatment, but other pests who think they still have the clout they did in the cold war.

There's not much of an image mod to imagine Slim Pickens replaced by Donald Trump ... they look the same to the casual eye.


----------



## wayneL (28 December 2015)

Ffs basilio. Is it possible for you to intellectually venture beyond the narrow blinkered binary world in which you live?

Regarding with suspicion does not mean - yeah let's nuke the bastids, then we'll invade and bayonet their charred corpses and driver wooden stakes through their hearts.

It means - let's see some evidence that the greater number of you are not in thrall to extremists. Some have done so explicitly, but not many. It means, we want to trust you but need you to show trustworthiness.

Just like in the climate debate where you see all except those who agree with your extreme Apocalyptic view as deniers.

For Goodness sake man, try debating with some maturity!


----------



## explod (28 December 2015)

wayneL said:


> Ffs basilio. Is it possible for you to intellectually venture beyond the narrow blinkered binary world in which you live?
> 
> Regarding with suspicion does not mean - yeah let's nuke the bastids, then we'll invade and bayonet their charred corpses and driver wooden stakes through their hearts.
> 
> ...




It is becoming clear that you are dealing more with opposing views and personalities that the subjects at hand ole Pal. 

Time for you take a more objective view. 

On topic,  a large percentage of the community here at Thomastown are Muslims.   I find them to be kind,  moderate in views and very willing to chat.   It is clear that Western Governments love to push the buttons of differences and create fear.  Also young people love seeking attention and what better way than exalt towards extremism.  And on that point,  continued war,  isolation and lack of opportunities,  as the west has exposed them to by military presence to protect the  US petrodollar is the prime cause. 

Interesting on tellie xmas day,  channell 24 just swung from the Christian celebrations to the Isis wars back and forth all day. 

Next week the tennis starts where competitors from all over the world come together in harmony.  So clear that the money lobby(mostly oil and arms)  runs the show. 

So calm down and disect the issues.


----------



## luutzu (29 December 2015)

wayneL said:


> Ffs basilio. Is it possible for you to intellectually venture beyond the narrow blinkered binary world in which you live?
> 
> Regarding with suspicion does not mean - yeah let's nuke the bastids, then we'll invade and bayonet their charred corpses and driver wooden stakes through their hearts.
> 
> ...




Sifu,

While it is the apex of wisdom to trust no man, particularly one with a funny name and pray to a different god. Such wisdom are not applicable to our system of law and justice, where the onus of proof lies not with the suspect but with the accuser/prosecutor/exterminator.

I think Basilio was just skipping a few steps ahead of the argument - that is, if we believe Islam and Muslim is the cause and problem of all these terrorism. That if a Muslim is extremely devout, chances are he's a violent radical and only an opportunity away from an Allah Akbar with a boom... what are we to conclude once we believe that?

While you may see that as simply them needing to take it easy on the Islam stuff... others who believe Islam as violent and muderous and who aren't so kind will just wipe them clean and send them to their Allah.


----------



## luutzu (29 December 2015)

Tisme said:


> I suspect the USA, GB and Israel are absent at the moment while they build their respective arsenals in readiness. I also suspect it won't only be the ISIS dudes who get the treatment, but other pests who think they still have the clout they did in the cold war.
> 
> There's not much of an image mod to imagine Slim Pickens replaced by Donald Trump ... they look the same to the casual eye.
> 
> ...




I thought them three are in the thick of it?

Does weapons have an expiry date?


----------



## Tisme (30 December 2015)

luutzu said:


> I thought them three are in the thick of it?
> 
> Does weapons have an expiry date?




Instructors.

It takes time to amass enough resource and logistics to arm and feed an extreme prejudice counter force


----------



## orr (30 December 2015)

basilio said:


> Daniel Defoes solution to the Irish problem.




I might stand corrected here and would be happy to be on something I don't know about Defoe; But if the 'solution' suggested is the essay titled 'A modest proposal' that I believe was presented to the British parliament at one point, which suggested the rearing and fattening of infant Irish papists _for table_ of those able to afford such a delicacy; well that was written by Jonathan Swift. And it should be noted that it wasn't at first recognised as satire by the majority of the Tory side of the house and for a brief time stood a chance of passing as a bill. Proving if nothing else the cloth ears of conservatives have changed little in three hundred years.

I don't know enough about Defoe to know of explicit references to the Irish in 'The generous projector'

Leaving the very much avoided child abuse catastrophe to one side temporarily(such uncomfortable talk, so testing to the sensibilities ...._' pass me the salts Maud I feel I'm a'cometh down with the vapours_') , I'm yet to be convinced that; 'the fanatics rule Islam' other than in the fevered minds of some on both sides of the divide.

Please keep in mind my veiws on Islam are best expressed by Christopher Hitchins


----------



## SirRumpole (4 January 2016)

Is there a new Middle East war brewing ?

Iran v Iraq killed a million +, this one looks definitely one for us to stay out of.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-04/saudi-arabia-severs-ties-with-iran/7065624


----------



## noco (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Is there a new Middle East war brewing ?
> 
> Iran v Iraq killed a million +, this one looks definitely one for us to stay out of.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-04/saudi-arabia-severs-ties-with-iran/7065624




The Yanks and the Aussies should never have been involved in the first place......They should have stayed in their own backyards 20 years ago....You don't see any involvement of the Chinese or the Japanese in the middle east. 

It is all about Muslims fighting Muslims.....let them cut each others throats metaphorically  speaking.

As Tony Abbott said about Syria, it is baddies fighting baddies

The USA tried to force democracy on the middle east and democracy just does not work.....They only know one thing and that is dictatorship.......They should have left Bin Laden, Colonel Gadaffi and Hussein in charge of their appropriate countries.


----------



## Tisme (4 January 2016)

noco said:


> The Yanks and the Aussies should never have been involved in the first place......They should have stayed in their own backyards 20 years ago....You don't see any involvement of the Chinese or the Japanese in the middle east.
> 
> It is all about Muslims fighting Muslims.....let them cut each others throats metaphorically  speaking.
> 
> ...




The oil wars were bad enough, but I  can only imagine how things will get when there no need for so much oil. Being the USA's deputy sheriff makes it hard for us to buck our obligations to save the world.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 January 2016)

noco said:


> The USA tried to force democracy on the middle east and democracy just does not work.....They only know one thing and that is dictatorship.......They should have left Bin Laden, Colonel Gadaffi and Hussein in charge of their appropriate countries.




It would also if if the US, Russia and China were not as greedy for the money from arms sales to the tinpot dictators and didn't sell them any weapons.


----------



## luutzu (4 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> It would also if if the US, Russia and China were not as greedy for the money from arms sales to the tinpot dictators and didn't sell them any weapons.




you miss out France, Germany, Israel... and Australia - selling the iron ore for the steel [?] 

What harm could freedom fighting cause when you have a team of secret service around you, and you and friends also get to make so much money. And when it cause insecurity at home... you get a bigger budget to keep the people safe. Maybe a pay rise too since it's extra work you're taking on too.


----------



## noco (5 January 2016)

There are no words to add to this,  but Churchill saw it coming.  Read his ending comment.

 IRAN  1970


IRAN  2012


 AFGHANISTAN


 EGYPT (Cairo University) 1959


 EGYPT (Cairo University) 2012


 NETHERLANDS (Amsterdam) 1980


 NETHERLANDS (Amsterdam) 2012


And some people still do not see a reason to worry!
Winston Churchill 1899. "Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."



This is amazing.  Even more amazing is that this hasn't been published long before now.

CHURCHILL ON ISLAM  Unbelievable, but the speech below was written in 1899.

The attached short speech from Winston Churchill, was delivered by him in 1899 when he was a young soldier and journalist.  It probably sets out the current views of many, but expresses in the wonderful Churchillian turn of phrase and use of the English language, of which he was a past master.  

Sir Winston Churchill was, without doubt, one of the greatest men of the late 19th and 20th centuries.  He was a brave young soldier, a brilliant journalist, an extraordinary politician and statesman, a great war leader and British Prime Minister, to whom the Western world must be forever in his debt.

He was a prophet in his own time.  He died on 24th January 1965, at the grand old age of 90 and, after a lifetime of service to his country, was accorded a State funeral.

HERE IS THE SPEECH
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!  Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. 

The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture,sluggish methods of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.  A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity.

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinctionof slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.  Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.

Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith.  It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition, Vol II, pages 248-250 London)

Churchill saw it coming.


----------



## luutzu (5 January 2016)

noco said:


> There are no words to add to this,  but Churchill saw it coming.  Read his ending comment.
> 
> IRAN  1970
> 
> ...




So in 1899 our great leader and aristocrat was how old? 24 years old?

Going by the words of a 24 year old English aristocrat on the merits of another race's worth is really scraping it noco.

Not that age equal wisdom.. We've been through this before... When young Churchill was speaking about Muslim's women having no rights in 1899, English and American women couldn't vote or do much beside staying at home and breed. They couldn't for another 20 to 30 years - before that the Western culture and law assume a woman is to do what her father or her husband tells her to do.

Seriously, by the time this new cold war and the ongoing wars of liberation and not oil is over - the entire ME will be a complete dust bowl. One with little or no water; drained oil and gas for any state revenue and the hundreds of millions of people there will either stay and starve to death or flee North towards Europe seeking refuge.


You know how the Native Americans were wiped out? Beside the smallpox and the cowboys and Indians back and forth? It's sealed by killing all the Buffalos.

What's the Arab states buffalos? Oil.


----------



## DB008 (15 January 2016)

*Islamic State takes credit for shootings and suicide bombings in Jakarta​*


> The Islamic State group on Thursday claimed responsibility for deadly shootings and suicide bombings that have rocked the Indonesian capital.
> 
> In a statement published online, the jihadist group said that a number of bombs “detonated at the same time as attacks from four soldiers of the caliphate… with light weapons and suicide belts.”
> 
> ...




http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/islamic-state-takes-credit-for-shootings-and-suicide-bombings-in-jakarta/​


----------



## noco (18 January 2016)

The Czech President, Milos Zeman, calls the illegal immigrants into Europe as an invasion...I referred to it on several occasions over the past 6 or 7 years as infiltration.......It has been an organized plot to take over Europe and the rest of the world.

Thanks to Tony Abbott for putting and end to the disastrous Australian Labor Party policy of open borders.......If it had been allowed to continue, we could have found ourselves in the same situation now being experienced in Europe.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/3...ys-muslims-impossible-to-integrate-in-europe/

*Prague (AFP) - Czech President Milos Zeman, known for his fiery anti-migrant rhetoric, said on Sunday it was "practically impossible" to integrate the Muslim community into European society.

"The experience of Western European countries which have ghettos and excluded localities shows that the integration of the Muslim community is practically impossible," Zeman said in a televised interview.

"Let them have their culture in their countries and not take it to Europe, otherwise it will end up like Cologne," he added, referring to the mass New Year's Eve assaults on women in Germany and elsewhere.

"Integration is possible with cultures that are similar, and the similarities may vary," pointing out that the Vietnamese and Ukrainian communities had been able to integrate into Czech society.

Zeman, a 71-year-old leftwinger and the first-ever directly elected president of the Czech Republic, has repeatedly spoken out against the surge of migrant and refugee arrivals in Europe.

Earlier this month, Zeman claimed the influx was masterminded by Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, saying the Islamist group was using money from several states to finance it in a bid to "gradually control Europe".

Late last year, Zeman called the surge in refugee numbers "an organised invasion", urging young men from Iraq and Syria to "take up arms" against the Islamic State (IS) group instead of running away.*


----------



## luutzu (18 January 2016)

noco said:


> The Czech President, Milos Zeman, calls the illegal immigrants into Europe as an invasion...I referred to it on several occasions over the past 6 or 7 years as infiltration.......It has been an organized plot to take over Europe and the rest of the world.
> 
> Thanks to Tony Abbott for putting and end to the disastrous Australian Labor Party policy of open borders.......If it had been allowed to continue, we could have found ourselves in the same situation now being experienced in Europe.
> 
> ...




Sorry to disappoint you noco but this is what "modern" warefare and invasion looks like:

*REPORT: 62 people have the same wealth as the poorest half of the world*
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/report-62-people-have-the-same-wealth-as-the-poorest-half-of-the-world-2016-1



> A recent report by Oxfam, An Economy for the 1%, has found that in 2015, just 62 individuals had the same wealth as 3.6 billion people.
> 
> The wealth of these 62 people has risen by 44% in the five years since 2010, at an increase of $542 billion, to $1.76 trillion. Meanwhile, the wealth of the bottom half fell by just over a trillion dollars in the same period -– a drop of 41%.
> 
> ...





---
See, you get friendly politicians who know ecnomics to lower interest rates to zero or even below zero. 
That mean it costs the big guys almost nothing to "borrow" people's money and buy stuff and pay for that political influence.

Those savers and small little plebs who put savings into banks instead of under the mattress saw their cash being used and they got jack for it. Well, they will have their company taken over and their job made redundant.

As they say, it's always the quiet one.


----------



## noco (18 January 2016)

luutzu said:


> Sorry to disappoint you noco but this is what "modern" warefare and invasion looks like:
> 
> *REPORT: 62 people have the same wealth as the poorest half of the world*
> http://www.businessinsider.com.au/report-62-people-have-the-same-wealth-as-the-poorest-half-of-the-world-2016-1
> ...




What has all your  BS got to do with the Muslim Invasion into Europe?:topic


----------



## luutzu (18 January 2016)

noco said:


> What has all your  BS got to do with the Muslim Invasion into Europe?:topic




So 62 richest people in the world owns the same wealth as the lower 50% of people in the world.

These 62 saw their wealth increased by 44% since 2010; over the same period the same 50% poor buggers lost around $1 trillion dollars of wealth.

Some of them poors managed to "invade" Europe in hope of getting some back through welfare is what I'm also saying.

Point is noco, you're fixated on invaders and welfare cheats and illegal immigrants ruining Europe and your country soon - sooner if it weren't for captain Abbott... 

Yet you're ignoring the quiet invaders who raided the country's savers accounts - and did it legally too.
Then with that money, they buy privatised assets and then make it efficient so we could all enjoy the fruit of their labour. 


Anyway... there's war and terrorist attack almost daily in that region... and we're hating them for trying to get the heck out of the place.


----------



## Tisme (18 January 2016)

noco said:


> Zeman, a 71-year-old leftwinger and the first-ever directly elected president of the Czech Republic, has repeatedly spoken out against the surge of migrant and refugee arrivals in Europe.
> 
> [/B]




This can't be...lefties are the anathema of national pride aren't they? 

I wonder if it is all possible for people to have opinions that aren't pigeon holed by lazy journalists into one of two polarised groups.


----------



## Tisme (21 January 2016)

This 2500 rounds per minute (metal storm can produce 1000000 rounds per minute)


----------



## luutzu (21 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> This 2500 rounds per minute (metal storm can produce 1000000 rounds per minute)





Unless the bad guys all lined up, not much use for it. So either 2500 rounds for one or a couple of bad guys or all of it missed the target. Guess they sell the gun cheap but the bullets dear.


----------



## DB008 (24 January 2016)

UK is stuffed, we aren't far behind...



*The Jihadist Next Door​*

​


----------



## DB008 (27 January 2016)

Sweden, what happened to you?


*Refugee centre worker stabbed to death by migrant in Sweden​*


> Stockholm (AFP) - A young asylum seeker on Monday allegedly stabbed to death an employee at a refugee centre in Sweden as police demanded more resources to stem rising violence linked to the migrant crisis.
> 
> Police spokesman Thomas Fuxborg said the assailant was a young man residing at a centre for youngsters aged between 14 and 17 in Molndal near Gothenburg on Sweden's west coast.
> 
> ...




http://news.yahoo.com/migrant-fatally-stabs-swedish-refugee-centre-worker-police-151706582.html​


----------



## SirRumpole (28 January 2016)

DB008 said:


> Sweden, what happened to you?
> 
> 
> *Refugee centre worker stabbed to death by migrant in Sweden​*
> ...




They will never get rid of them.

They're stuffed.


----------



## DB008 (28 January 2016)

Glimmer of hope....

*EU migrant crisis: Sweden may reject 80,000 asylum claims​*


> Sweden may reject the asylum applications of up to 80,000 migrants and should prepare to deport them, the interior minister says.
> 
> Anders Ygeman said charter aircraft would be used to deport the migrants but it would take several years.
> 
> ...




http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35425735​


----------



## luutzu (28 January 2016)

DB008 said:


> Glimmer of hope....
> 
> *EU migrant crisis: Sweden may reject 80,000 asylum claims​*
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35425735​





Not sure why they don't all stay home in Syria.












Refugee camps in Jordan. Was a desert in 2011, now it's what? 4km by 3km tent city?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-10/inside-zaatari-one-of-worlds-largest-refugee-camps/5506792




Those are the luckier ones. 

This boy not so lucky trying to illegally enter Lebanon from Syria.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4316751.ece


Might want to make inform opinions. Just saying.


----------



## Tisme (29 January 2016)

luutzu said:


> Not sure why they don't all stay home in Syria.




Like the poms did in London/England during and after the blitz? Might be a factor of the right stuff, right customs, right beliefs?


----------



## SirRumpole (29 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> Like the poms did in London/England during and after the blitz? Might be a factor of the right stuff, right customs, right beliefs?




And the Brits weren't being bombed by their own government.


----------



## luutzu (29 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> Like the poms did in London/England during and after the blitz? Might be a factor of the right stuff, right customs, right beliefs?




Character... or maybe being on an island surrounded by seas that's now blockaded mean there's no place to go...

Why are the Irish here is Australia (and other places), not staying around during the Potato Famine? Why are you being part of the empire? I thought Ireland was only freed from the poms not too long ago - a decade?

The Blitz lasted 57 days? During which time the children were sent to the farm, Royalties to their country estates, politicians their bunkers and everyone else will have to make do with shelters everytime the alarm goes on right?

A few more days and England would have collapsed. And that's with dumb bombs, a handful of dive bombers... not the new hardware all the countries of the world (it seem) are using in Syria since 2011 isn't it - for 5 years now?

But let's not go down that path and call those who risk everything to bring their family to safety people of poor character while we rich a holes enjoy our crickets and looking for any excuse to tell them desperate people to scram.


----------



## luutzu (29 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> And the Brits weren't being bombed by their own government.




There weren't any civil war in England, ever? I thought civil wars does happen in just about all countries throughout just about all of recorded history.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 January 2016)

luutzu said:


> There weren't any civil war in England, ever? I thought civil wars does happen in just about all countries throughout just about all of recorded history.




We were talking about WWII.not ancient history. Anyway , historically, the Brits seemed to stick together and fight back rather than run away.


----------



## luutzu (29 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> We were talking about WWII.not ancient history. Anyway , historically, the Brits seemed to stick together and fight back rather than run away.




You can't pick a point in time that favour your argument.

During WW2, England couldn't run away. It's an island. That and the Nazi have their blitzkrieg - the kind of rapid war that allow them to take over most of Europe in a matter of months. Took France in 3 weeks if I remember right.

It probably boggles British planners mind that Hitler could invade England so quickly. Being surrounded and shocked, they have to put up a fight. And if we remember, mother England pretty much abandon all her children to the barbarians while she save herself from the Nazi: Burma, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia and its colonies...

We shouldn't be in a rush to judge people. IF we're in their shoes, what would we do? Would we join the tyrant, or join the terrorists? Would we join at all when our siblings are all dead and only our parents are alive and need our care; would we join the warriors while our children starve? Are we going to stand there with slingshots while the enemy carpet bomb the entire city?


----------



## SirRumpole (29 January 2016)

luutzu said:


> You can't pick a point in time that favour your argument.




I'm actually agreeing with you that the Syrians have more reasons to run away that the Brits.


----------



## noco (29 January 2016)

And thanks to Gillard and Rudd, we now have  plenty of jihadists here in Australia...And those who did sneak in via Indonesia have recruited second and third generation Muslims.

Thanks to Tony Abbott, the bad policy laid down by Rudd/Gillard/Rudd was put to rest.


----------



## Tisme (29 January 2016)

noco said:


> And thanks to Gillard and Rudd, we now have  plenty of jihadists here in Australia...And those who did sneak in via Indonesia have recruited second and third generation Muslims.
> 
> Thanks to Tony Abbott, the bad policy laid down by Rudd/Gillard/Rudd was put to rest.




You want to study the numbers who are coming in via the migration route Noco?


----------



## noco (29 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> You want to study the numbers who are coming in via the migration route Noco?




Do you have some details or a link to what you claim?

I assume you are referring to jihadists.


----------



## Tisme (29 January 2016)

luutzu said:


> Character... or maybe being on an island surrounded by seas that's now blockaded mean there's no place to go...




Yeah they could catch a boat to USA 



luutzu said:


> Why are the Irish here is Australia (and other places), not staying around during the Potato Famine? Why are you being part of the empire? I thought Ireland was only freed from the poms not too long ago - a decade?



 They weren't leaving because of war, they left because of hunger, and traditionally (like the Scots) Celts are historically a wandering race who like to think they have a monopoly on the spiritual and drink. 1919 for formal independence...... still a pagan 3rd world country within a sea of industrial might.



luutzu said:


> The Blitz lasted 57 days? During which time the children were sent to the farm, Royalties to their country estates, politicians their bunkers and everyone else will have to make do with shelters everytime the alarm goes on right?




London is only now reaching the level of population when the Blitz was on (8.6 m) ... that's a lot of country estates and bunkers that never existed to fulfill your argument luutzu.



luutzu said:


> A few more days and England would have collapsed. And that's with dumb bombs, a handful of dive bombers... not the new hardware all the countries of the world (it seem) are using in Syria since 2011 isn't it - for 5 years now?




Revisionist historians, everyone knows the poms were incapable of retreat back in those days; their dna was 500 years of conquering and fighting the good fights.Anything that kills, kills doesn't matter the means and London was a tinderbox of wood floors and timber trusses.



luutzu said:


> But let's not go down that path and call those who risk everything to bring their family to safety people of poor character while we rich a holes enjoy our crickets and looking for any excuse to tell them desperate people to scram.




The path was that the UK didn't allow it's rule of law be easily given away to vandals of civilisation and they were prepared to be stubborn in the face of an oppressive enemy.

The burden, post war, on us dinky di Aussies having to accommodate the whinging Poms has taken its toll, but we soldier on regardless.


----------



## qldfrog (29 January 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> And the Brits weren't being bombed by their own government.



you make you choice fight with IS or any of the glorious freedom fighters supported by the west and its "allies" or you fight with Assad";
in which case your family is in Damascus and you are fighting to protect them and some basic freedom, maybe not democracy but more or less freedom otherwise.
In any case, if you have only so much of pride and courage..as a male between 18 and 40 you are fighting in Syria.
or are these traits linked only to the depraved western culture?
anyway


----------



## luutzu (29 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> Yeah they could catch a boat to USA



Those who could afford a ticket would have been on a boat out; those who stay are too poor or have too much to gain and have a boat waiting for them if it all goes to heck.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing the English or any people's bravery or otherwise. Just saying that we can't judge people as either brave or cowardly if they do one thing rather than another during war time. We, at least me anyway, can't imagine what it'd be like.





Tisme said:


> They weren't leaving because of war, they left because of hunger, and traditionally (like the Scots) Celts are historically a wandering race who like to think they have a monopoly on the spiritual and drink. 1919 for formal independence...... still a pagan 3rd world country within a sea of industrial might.




War causes, among other things, famine too. 
If the chess game in Syria and the ME are ones where the masses could just go about their normal daily lives and come home in one piece; or have a home to come back to and water and power to drink and cook a meal... most wouldn't have left either.




Tisme said:


> London is only now reaching the level of population when the Blitz was on (8.6 m) ... that's a lot of country estates and bunkers that never existed to fulfill your argument luutzu.




What? I thought shelters were also the tunnels and London's Tube too.
No need to be heroic and stand your ground when bombers are shooting and bombing overhead.



Tisme said:


> Revisionist historians, everyone knows the poms were incapable of retreat back in those days; their dna was 500 years of conquering and fighting the good fights.Anything that kills, kills doesn't matter the means and London was a tinderbox of wood floors and timber trusses.



Don't think that DNA only exists in English blood though. All race and culture could point to certain time in their "glorious" history when they butchered and colonised other races and countries. Some more than most of course.



Tisme said:


> The path was that the UK didn't allow it's rule of law be easily given away to vandals of civilisation and they were prepared to be stubborn in the face of an oppressive enemy.



That may be true. But the Yanks were already drawing up plans for a world where Nazi Germany rule the entirety of Europe and they themselves will have to be satisfy with the Western Hemisphere.

Nazi Germany was one group of barbarians, the other was Stalin's Soviet Union. I guess high standard of human rights and freedom and stuff didn't matter all that much then?




Tisme said:


> The burden, post war, on us dinky di Aussies having to accommodate the whinging Poms has taken its toll, but we soldier on regardless.




One ought not to speak of one's masters that way


----------



## luutzu (29 January 2016)

qldfrog said:


> you make you choice fight with IS or any of the glorious freedom fighters supported by the west and its "allies" or you fight with Assad";
> in which case your family is in Damascus and you are fighting to protect them and some basic freedom, maybe not democracy but more or less freedom otherwise.
> In any case, if you have only so much of pride and courage..as a male between 18 and 40 you are fighting in Syria.
> or are these traits linked only to the depraved western culture?
> anyway




War is not glorious or bravery. That kind of talk are all propaganda. And maybe it show the measure of a person to not buy into that kind of nonsense. Any idiot can pick up a gun and go shoot at something.

Maybe it takes more courage to know that the world expects you to be "manly" and go kill somebody and shoot something; but you instead take on the burden of that shame so that you could stay alive to provide safety and food to your family. Maybe it is brave to know that a "real man" do not beg, but you do it, that you would throw all you know and leave all the people you grew up with and go to a foreign land, work at whatever job you can find so that your children will have a brighter future. 

I don't know about you, but I admire such people more than these empty talks of bravery and courage by killing people or be kill yourself. 

Takes more kahuny to burden what others call weak and shameful so that your family can be safe than it is to talk big and act brave and wanting to "wipe" cities and countries off the map just to show how courageous you are and should be elected president or warmongers in chief.


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## qldfrog (30 January 2016)

"War is not glorious or bravery."
Definitively not, it is horror

"Any idiot can pick up a gun and go shoot at something."

but most idiots run away when they realise what war is.

"I don't know about you, but I admire such people more than these empty talks of bravery and courage by killing people or be kill yourself."

I am sad to read this Luutzu, even if not born here, I would fight for the right to live in Australia and protect my family /home here, and yes die for it.
If you can not understand this, you are just a floating self, ready to move on and parasite any place where the grass will be greener. So what if the taxes increases, the RE is too high or low, you move to NZ, US or wherever?

Your family can not be safe if you flee, the Jews leant it in a terrible way in WWII, 
it seems the lessons have not been learnt by many when facing the new plague

if you are Syrian and flee, what about uyour uncle, your grandmother, the old aunt?And what about the land, you do not have any attachment to your land?
You do not give a **** because you, and MAYBE your wife and kids are OK?

When a war is over and you have lost, then it is useless to go to slaughter for the sake of it, but right now, the future of Syria/Irak are in the hands of its people (yea yea we can talk about bad evil US etc) 
but overall : the choice is theirs and sorry to offend you there, but this is treason to run when you have the choice to fight for the right (in your eyes) cause.
IS would not be where it is now with a bit more spine from the local inhabitants.
Anyway, happy not to have to fight by your side (and happy not to have to fight at all indeed)


----------



## basilio (30 January 2016)

Qld Frog  I think that is a pretty mean post you have made attacking Luutzu thoughts on war and family. 

The fighting in Syria is very complex. Who is killing who and for what purpose isn't easily answered. 

*But the devastation that is being caused to millions of people and their communities are the results and the  facts on the ground.* 

Trying to create something better for your family elsewhere instead of being bombed or starved to death is having a go.


----------



## basilio (30 January 2016)

xxx


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## luutzu (30 January 2016)

qldfrog said:


> "War is not glorious or bravery."
> Definitively not, it is horror
> 
> "Any idiot can pick up a gun and go shoot at something."
> ...




Tell you what. When the barbarians are literally at the gates, I'll stand and fight. 

Until that happen, all the Masters of War in Canberra and elsewhere can go themselves, or can send their own kids if they like, and fly overseas to fight for freedom and liberty and all that bull.

I'm not going to die, or raise my kids so they'd go and kill or get kill, just so some idiot with a Napoleonic complex decided some other kids half the world away is a "thread" to civilisation and world peace and should be blown to pieces. Then if my kids, and my neighbours kids die, those same idiots do their speeches and photo ops and look all sad and gloomy as they drove away under security details to a light lunch.

Maybe that's cowardly and I'm just a parasite. But ey, if people want to start a war, go fight it themselves. Don't send my kids to fight for their "courage" and freedom-loving talks.


---

The Jewish people who stayed, or forced to return to Nazi Germany because other people in other countries don't care for Jews thought the Jews ought to return and fight the Nazi... well we all know what happen to most of those Jews don't we?

The Muslims, I would argue, are the Jews of today. Some who love Jewish people and cry over their murder now think nothing of sending another wave of refugees back to where they came from.

And a reality check for you. Do you know what was done after the mass murder of those Jewish people in all those concentration camps?

Their death were used by other religious nuts to justify the same murder and killings - but being done more slowly (because it'd be too messed up to do it in the same way as the Nazi did); and being done to another group of barbarians - the Palestinians.

Then on the death of those Jewish people, a handful of other Jewish people go to the Swiss banks and demand payment and compensation for stolen money that were in the accounts of those now dead Jewish people.

Yes, apparently people can all afford Swiss accounts and have billions in it, but they couldn't afford a ticket out of Nazi Germany.

Then guess what happen to those billions of dollars the Swiss banks cough up? Maybe 1% goes to the survivors, the rest goes to who the heck knows.

So yea, if people want to stand on others corpses to look all high and mighty, they better send their own children and not mine.

--------------

Yea, Bush Jr. and Dick Cheney... were all safely at home while other Americans go to war. Then when they rule and can send other people's kids to war... yay... "bring it on"; "no WMD, opps" and a few billion ka-chings to them and their friends.

What did Abbott say when he heard of the death of an Australian soldier in Afganishtan? "Shiet happens doesn't it".

You want to die for these idiots' master plans, go right ahead.


----------



## Tisme (30 January 2016)

luutzu said:


> Tell you what. When the barbarians are literally at the gates, I'll stand and fight.
> 
> .




I think they are are knocking on it as we argue the toss luutzu. I would suggest this is what qldfrog is trying to point out ... not us as the invaders, but the huge wave of primitive culture that is on the march.

Appeasement has has a long history of failure when it comes to barbarians at the gate.

We seem to be content to reinvent the Sack of Rome in our own western backyards.


----------



## qldfrog (31 January 2016)

basilio said:


> Qld Frog  I think that is a pretty mean post you have made attacking Luutzu thoughts on war and family.
> 
> The fighting in Syria is very complex. Who is killing who and for what purpose isn't easily answered.
> 
> ...



Apologies, this is a very sensitive subject, I have the feeling that a WWII event nowadays would result with a nazi victory with no fight and I personnally see the situation today as as bad.Please accept my apologies Luutzu for the personnal attack.I had to cool down a day before even coming back here.I will abstain to comment on these subject, my view is clear.I will stick to the economics/technical threads.there is no way i can even understand Luutzu nor can he understand me.


----------



## basilio (31 January 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Apologies, this is a very sensitive subject, I have the feeling that a WWII event nowadays would result with a nazi victory with no fight and I personnally see the situation today as as bad.Please accept my apologies Luutzu for the personnal attack.I had to cool down a day before even coming back here.I will abstain to comment on these subject, my view is clear.I will stick to the economics/technical threads.there is no way i can even understand Luutzu nor can he understand me.




Thanks.  Nice one Qld frog  

Maybe it's worth seeing some different sides to a story. I was talking to some new acquaintances with quite different  backgrounds recently and discovered some really startling new information on the Syrian war that had me rethinking furiously. Makes me very cautious about simple/simplistic answers.

Cheers


----------



## wayneL (31 January 2016)

My missus has just returned from a trip to Europe. The people she spoke to had two basic concerns.

1/ That their magnanimity had been abused.

2/ That they feared an exponential trend of ideology towards neo-naziism.

They felt for the people who wanted to come and be good productive citizens, but were alarmed at the number of villains that come as well. It is negatively impacting their lives, culture and feelings of safety, from BOTH aspects mentioned above.

As I see it there is only one way this will all finish and it's going to be very mucky.


----------



## luutzu (31 January 2016)

Tisme said:


> I think they are are knocking on it as we argue the toss luutzu. I would suggest this is what qldfrog is trying to point out ... not us as the invaders, but the huge wave of primitive culture that is on the march.
> 
> Appeasement has has a long history of failure when it comes to barbarians at the gate.
> 
> We seem to be content to reinvent the Sack of Rome in our own western backyards.




I thought invading armies would first flatten our cities and soften the landings before sending in the tanks and boots to shoot and round up the natives.

I wouldn't call a culture high and mighty if it kick those seeking refuge back to where they came from. If we do these kind of stuff, won't be needing them and their Islam to ruin the place. It's already been done for them.


----------



## luutzu (31 January 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Apologies, this is a very sensitive subject, I have the feeling that a WWII event nowadays would result with a nazi victory with no fight and I personnally see the situation today as as bad.Please accept my apologies Luutzu for the personnal attack.I had to cool down a day before even coming back here.I will abstain to comment on these subject, my view is clear.I will stick to the economics/technical threads.there is no way i can even understand Luutzu nor can he understand me.




I didn't take it personally qldfrog. It's understandable given the terror attacks in Paris so no hard feelings. 

There certainly are lessons to be drawn from WW2. Just some time, either through our own propagandas or mis-reading of history and current event, we drew the wrong conclusions and the wrong lessons from it.

The way I see it, the only lessons our political leaders tells us to learn about WW2 is that "we wouldn't let it happen again"... that we won't appease; that we will fight them there so another Hitler won't invade us here - so let's go kill all of them, just in case.

That's the wrong lesson. It's also misleading.

I'm sure I've said it before... Chamberlain and his gov't did not "appease" Hitler. They weren't just sitting there and watch Hitler do whatever he want because the British gov't want peace and not war.

The British "appease", and France fell very quickly, because WW1 nearly bankrupted them. Because keeping a worldwide empire with colonies and subjects stretches its resources and military might to the point that when a Hitler rises and a humiliated people now find new opportunities to rearm to reclaim their glory through conquest - no major power could do anything about it but sit by and "appease".

Look who's being kept busy fighting savages and barbarians again? We are. 
Look at what former imperial powers are rearming and setting up for peacekeeping again.

To me, if we are to defend Australia and its way of life... there is no need to go fight, kill or die to do it. We could achieve independence and peace by first defending our values - freedom of religion, liberty, equality before the law, democracy, helping those in need etc.; Two, we protect Australia by not creating new enemies - going halfway around the world to help blow up people's houses does not make for winning friends; Three, we protect Australia by keeping our blood united and our treasury full. 

These idiot politicians who talk tough have no clue as to what keep a country safe and secure. I mean, US Senator Ted Cruz talks about carpet bombing Syria if he's president. WTF? ISIS just line up and watch themselves being bombed?


----------



## wayneL (1 February 2016)

wayneL said:


> My missus has just returned from a trip to Europe. The people she spoke to had two basic concerns.
> 
> 1/ That their magnanimity had been abused.
> 
> ...




eg

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...n/news-story/9aa82bffc92b15fa7ac27029c9475221

This it's only what has been reported. This has been kicking off all over Europe without being reported on.


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## Tisme (8 February 2016)

It must be a fluke that the Muslim North of Nigeria is the poor cousin to educated Christian South Nigeria, but that doesn't stop some in the north trying to etch out and even more extreme version of the ropes that bind:

Prophets of peace:


http://en.starafrica.com/news/borno-villages-suffer-latest-boko-haram-atrocities.html


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## SirRumpole (11 February 2016)

Another mess that Islamic idiots have started and we are now expected to fix.

How are we expected to get children out of Syria when we can't go in there ourselves ?

Islamic State fighter Khaled Sharrouf's wife, Tara Nettleton, dies in Syria

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-11/islamic-state-fighter-khaled-sharrouf's-wife-tara-dies/7158340


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## Tisme (11 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Another mess that Islamic idiots have started and we are now expected to fix.
> 
> How are we expected to get children out of Syria when we can't go in there ourselves ?
> 
> ...




Is that one of the kids who was holding a head or was that a photoshop jobbie?


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## SirRumpole (11 February 2016)

Tisme said:


> Is that one of the kids who was holding a head or was that a photoshop jobbie?




One of these kids was pictured holding a severed head I believe.


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## SirRumpole (11 February 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> One of these kids was pictured holding a severed head I believe.




A few unanswered questions here:



> Ms Nettleton married Sharrouf when she was 15 and followed her husband, a convicted terrorist, to Syria in 2014, taking their children.




How did this happen when the legal age for marriage in Australia is 18 ?

Same with Nettleton's daughter who married Mahomed Elomar at 13 and had a baby at 14.

Disgusting creatures.


----------



## DB008 (22 March 2016)

The religion of peace strikes again...

*‘Several dead’ as Brussels rocked by multiple explosions​*



> THE heart of the European capital Brussels has been rocked by multiple bomb explosions at its international airport and its underground metro train line close to the European Commission headquarters.
> 
> Although reports of casulaties vary, it appears at least 13 people were killed at the airport and another 10 at the metro station. More than 30 people have been reported injured.
> 
> ...





http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/two-explosions-rock-brussels-airport/news-story/ce3efc0a74046f11b02ebd9bdd91e200









https://twitter.com/Exen/status/712180329533075456​


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## Tisme (22 March 2016)

DB008 said:


> The religion of peace strikes again...




Aren't we supposed to ignore the terror in order to dis-empower the low life scum that they are? Go about our daily business deliriously oblivious to the danger posed by keeping our heads in a cloud.


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## dutchie (22 March 2016)

Trump is right - stop all Islamic immigration.


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## Tisme (22 March 2016)

I just had a look at how the world leaders are going to solve the situation:





> WORLD LEADERS RALLY
> Leaders have united in a show of solidarity after the attack. Belgian Prime Minister Charles Michel tweeted that the Federal Government is “monitoring the situation closely” and “absolute priority goes to the victims and to the assistance at the airport.
> UK Prime Minister David Cameron tweeted his condolences, as did Australian leader Malcolm Turnbull.
> European Union president Donald Tusk said he was appalled by the bombings in the city where the EU is based.
> ...




If that doesn't end the carnage nothing will .... strong stuff ...... Margaret Thatcher would be proud.


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## sptrawler (22 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> I just had a look at how the world leaders are going to solve the situation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The U.K ballot on whether to stay in the E.U will be interesting, imo it will show how much intergration there has been.


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## Tisme (23 March 2016)

Retribution has been swift: The Eiffel Tower, Brandenburg Gate and the Trevi Fountain have been lit up in the colours of Brussel's flag !! That's gotta strike fear in the hearts of the bad guys, that and the onslaught of reporting by Sunrise and Today.

Meanwhile there is a woman in Melbourne yesterday, who has been daylight abducted and sexually assaulted by a gang of men......  first gen negroid gangs violently running amock in Melbourne....... in NSW a gang of youth who have been extorting money to be sent off to the cause ... and our PM telling us this morning we are sweet from violence, except for the real problem = unions and construction EBAs.... it's all Bill Shorten' and Clive Palmer's fault of course.


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## Tisme (23 March 2016)

Terrorists playing into the hands of Donald Trump's election chances ... which is probably what they want 

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/22/politics/donald-trump-brussels-2016-reaction/index.html


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## Logique (23 March 2016)

Je suis Bruxelles.


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## SirRumpole (23 March 2016)

Just reflecting about the degree of media coverage given to bombs in Brussels vs those in say Turkey where more than 200 people have been killed in a few months.

Moral myopia or does it serve them right ?


----------



## basilio (23 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Just reflecting about the degree of media coverage given to bombs in Brussels vs those in say Turkey where more than 200 people have been killed in a few months.
> 
> Moral myopia or does it serve them right ?




Good point.. Somehow our media doesn't get that het up aboutthe even larger atrocities in non- western countries.  Same assailant, same goals. 

"Touch one, touch all"


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Just reflecting about the degree of media coverage given to bombs in Brussels vs those in say Turkey where more than 200 people have been killed in a few months.
> 
> Moral myopia or does it serve them right ?



I think the connection to the French attacks last year and the discovery of a terrorist network in Brussels which is still active does spark disbelief. Turkey is bordering the war in Syria which makes it a participant by proximity so some spill over is a given there regarding the news worthiness.

Wiki.


> Turkey, whose relations with Syria had been friendly over the previous decade, condemned its President Bashar Assad over the violent crackdown on protests in 2011 and requested his departure from office. Actually, after 1999 when Bashar Assad's father Hafez al-Assad expelled Kurdish leader Abdullah Ã–calan, the relationship between Syria and Turkey warmed.[12] In the beginning of the conflict Turkey trained defectors of the Syrian Army on its territory, and in July 2011, a group of them announced the birth of the Free Syrian Army, under the supervision of Turkish military intelligence


----------



## bellenuit (23 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> Just reflecting about the degree of media coverage given to bombs in Brussels vs those in say Turkey where more than 200 people have been killed in a few months.
> 
> Moral myopia or does it serve them right ?




Not myopia but more a reflection of the frequency of such events and the fact that we empathise more with people that we find similar culturally or closer geographically. We don't report people being killed in a car crash in Nairobi, but would likely report on the same in Australia. Even though you might pause briefly when reading the Australian story and skimp over it, if the accident were in your neighbourhood you would more likely read it in full. Although mass shootings in the US are still reported in detail, I think people in most other Western nations now barely bother reading about them as they are par for the course over there. Bombings in Turkey did get some attention, more than a bombing in Iraq would, but less that the Belgian bombings for these reasons.

I am sure if you were to read any Turkish language newspaper targeted to Australian Turks, they would devote a lot more space to the Turkish related bombings that to those in Brussels.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Not myopia but more a reflection of the frequency of such events and the fact that we empathise more with people that we find similar culturally or closer geographically. We don't report people being killed in a car crash in Nairobi, but would likely report on the same in Australia. Even though you might pause briefly when reading the Australian story and skimp over it, if the accident were in your neighbourhood you would more likely read it in full. Although mass shootings in the US are still reported in detail, I think people in most other Western nations now barely bother reading about them as they are par for the course over there. Bombings in Turkey did get some attention, more than a bombing in Iraq would, but less that the Belgian bombings for these reasons.
> 
> I am sure if you were to read any Turkish language newspaper targeted to Australian Turks, they would devote a lot more space to the Turkish related bombings that to those in Brussels.




...


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## luutzu (23 March 2016)

bellenuit said:


> Not myopia but more a reflection of the frequency of such events and the fact that we empathise more with people that we find similar culturally or closer geographically. We don't report people being killed in a car crash in Nairobi, but would likely report on the same in Australia. Even though you might pause briefly when reading the Australian story and skimp over it, if the accident were in your neighbourhood you would more likely read it in full. Although mass shootings in the US are still reported in detail, I think people in most other Western nations now barely bother reading about them as they are par for the course over there. Bombings in Turkey did get some attention, more than a bombing in Iraq would, but less that the Belgian bombings for these reasons.
> 
> I am sure if you were to read any Turkish language newspaper targeted to Australian Turks, they would devote a lot more space to the Turkish related bombings that to those in Brussels.




That's generally true. But with these terrorism and wars, politics also play a big role.

Turkey is a Western ally. So terrorism on its soil are shown but its retaliation or aggression are not shown.

Not much is shown about Yemen. Maybe the Saudi did most of the damage and they're bad friends of ours? Same with Ukraine... I think the war is still going on there. Or Libya... Clinton was going to use that as a case for her great strategic regime change (as opposed to Bush Jr's "strategic blunder" in Iraq)... now of course it's a bloody mess so no news coverage and no one's taking the blame except for West and East Libyans and their evil religion or something.

Or take Syria and the destruction on it. Not much was shown about towns being flatten before Russia decided to come on over and also fight IS. The headlines I've seen are always about the destruction Russia and Assad brought but nothing about, I guess, the more moderate freedom fighters we're backing.


Anyway, it's always innocent people who pay the price for the bravery of those in power.

Maybe 15 years of something doesn't work mean we ought to try some other means than endless wars for security at home.


----------



## noco (23 March 2016)

Is this what we might expect in Australia one day soon?

*How many new churches and synagogues have you seen being built these days?……JUST IN FLORIDA

 Read to the end…...

This is incredible!!!  I think you had better read it all below……
However, we just sit back and let it happen right under our noses.

Mosque Name                                                      Address  City                       State     Zip           Contact

Al-Iman Mosque                        500 Se  9th St .                    Belle Glade           FL 33430    561-996-6411
Masjid Al-Hidaya                        320 Charley E. Johns St .      Blountstown        FL 32424
Islamic  Center of  Boca Raton      3100 NW 5th Ave.                  Boca Raton           FL 33431    561-395-7221
Alhuda Islamic Center
Florida Islamic Educational Center   831 E. Palmetto Park Rd. BocaRaton     FL   33432     561-361-7033
American Islamic Center of  Florida    807 N. Federal Hwy      Boca Raton     FL 33432     561-900-4330
Assalam Center of  Boca Raton         1499 NW 4th Ave.          Boca Raton            FL 33432    561-391-8285
Bonita Springs Islamic Center       25221 Bernwood Dr. Unit 8   Bonita Springs   FL 34135    239-821-3969
Al-Amin Center of Florida               8101 South Military Trail        Boynton Beach     FL 33436    551-859-2296
Islamic Center of  Brandon               613 E. Morgan St .                Brandon              FL 33510    321-243-0693
Albanian Islamic Cultural Center     225 N. Fort Harrison Ave.    Clearwater       FL 33755
Bosnian Muslim Association           120 N. Main Ave.                   Clearwater         FL 33765    727-466-6215
Islamic Center of Clermont            15128 Lost  Lake Rd.                Clermont           FL 34711    407-267-8320
Islamic Center of South  Lake County 1208 Bowman St. Sunnyside Plaza  Clermont     FL 34711
Nur Ul Islam Masjid
Nur Ul Islam of  South Florida           10600 SW  59th St .           Cooper City       FL    33328     954-434-3855
Islamic Center of Daytona               347 S. Keach St .           Daytona Beach       FL   32114     386-252-3501
Masjid Al-Hakim
Islamic Society of Central Florida    1350 Gilpin  Ct.                 Deltona                 FL 32725    386-860-9663
Masjid Al Salam                             1218 New York Ave.           Dunedin                  FL 34698     727-733-5090
Dar-E-Panjetan  Center                     5541 N. State Rd. 7          Fort Lauderdale       FL  33319     954-328-3841
Musallah Assultan Salahuddin
Association of Islamic Charitable Projects     2820 Griffin Rd.     Fort Lauderdale        FL   33312     954-986-1373
Masjid Al Iman                             2542 Franklin Park Dr. Nw      Fort Lauderdale     FL 33311    954-581-6295
Islamic Center of Broward                 8658 Nw 44th St .               Fort Lauderdale      FL 33351     954-741-4214
Islamic Center for Peace                 2056 Linhart Ave.                  Fort Myers            FL  33901     239-671-1761
Masjid Ibrahim
Islamic  Center of SW  Florida             3337 Broadway St            Fort Myers             FL   33901     239-939-0292
Center for Islamic Culture Awareness   2371 Crawford St .           Fort Myers             FL 33901    941-332-7833
Islamic Center of  Fort Pierce         1104  West Midway Rd            Fort Pierce            FL 34982    772-465-9200
Islamic Center of  Fort Walton Beach    6-A Hollywood Blvd. Sw     Fort Walton Beach   FL 32548  850-664-0373
Masjid Tawhid                                 1557 Nw 5th St .                  Ft. Lauderdale        FL   33311
Islamic  Center of  Muslim Friends
Muslim Friends of  Florida                 2181 N.  Bridge  Plaza          Ft.  Pierce             FL 34950    772-462-0242
Hoda  Center                                 5220 SW  13th St.                  Gainesville             FL   32608   352-377-8080
Islamic Center of  Gainesville         1010 W. University Ave            Gainesville             FL  32601    352-372-1980
Islamic Jaffaria Association             10554 Nw 132Nd St .            Hialeah Gardens    FL  33018   305-557-6835
Islamic Movement of  Florida             3201 Nw 74th Ave.               Hollywood               FL 33024   954-894-9110
Masjid Al-Muttaqeen                    1010 Sw 196 Ave.                 Hollywood               FL 33029
Masjid Ul Mumineen                    12850 Sw 268 St.                  Homestead             FL 33032    305-246-5814
Islamic Community of Bosniak         2131 Art Museum Dr .          Jacksonville            FL 32207    904-683-8427
Masjid Al-Ansar         9801 Old Baymeadows Rd. Bldg 2  Apt. 17    Jacksonville       FL 32256    904-997-9487
Masjid Al-Salaam                         1625 N Pearl St .                    Jacksonville            FL 32206    904-359-0980
Islamic Center of Ne  Florida         2333 St. Johns Bluff Rd.  S      Jacksonville            FL 32211    904-646-3462
Jacksonville Masjid of Al-Islam      2242 Commonwealth Ave         Jacksonville           FL 32209    904-387-6910
Masjid Al-Maalik                             800 Emma St .                    Key West               FL 33040    305-295-8350
Masjid Al Noor
Al Bir Islamic Association           3496 Polynesian Isle Blvd         Kissimmee             FL   34746     407-879-0807
Masjid Taqwa
Islamic Center of Osceola County   2417 N. Central Ave.             Kissimmee           FL   34741    407-944-4353
Masjid Assunah                             1535 Pleasant Hill Rd.            Kissimmee           FL 34746   407-935-0337
Jaffaria Islamic Center                     1500 Old Vineland Rd.          Kissimmee           FL 34746
Masjid Al-Bir
Al-Bir Islamic Association              4870 Old Tampa Hwy             Kissimmee           FL  34758     407-879-0807
Masjid Darul Uloom
Islamic  Center of  Kissimmee            2350 Old  Vineland Rd           Kissimmee          FL   34746     407-390-1100
Masjid Aysha
Islamic  Center of  Lakeland                1161 Blossom Cir S             Lakeland              FL   33805     863-686-4713
Masjid Al-Hamza
Clearwater  Dawah  Center           560  Clearwater  Largo Rd. N         Largo                   FL   33770    727-585-9737
Leesburg Islamic Center                 2201 Montclair St .                   Leesburg            FL 34748    352-255-4708
Masjid Jamaat Al-Mumineen         3222 Holiday Springs Blvd           Margate           FL 33063    954-575-3872
Islamic Society of Brevard County      550 East Florida Ave.            Melbourne           FL 32901    321-984-4129
Masjid Al-Furqan
Islamic  Center of  Central Brevard        190 Grant Rd.                    Merritt Island      FL 32953
Masjid Al-Ansar                 5245 Nw 7th Ave                           Miami              FL     33127           305-757-8741
Nigerian Islamic Society             2410 Nw 93Rd St .                 Miami              FL       33147
American Muslim Assoc of  North America     183 Ne  166th St.      Miami         FL   33162           305-945-0414
Ershad  Center                     6669 SW  59Th Place                         Miami          FL   33025         305-661-2822
Masjid Al-Fayza                    36 NE  3Rd Ave.                              Miami        FL    33132        305-358-1268
Masjid An-Nour                    11699 SW  147th Ave.                       Miami        FL    33196        305-408-0400
Masjid Al-Ihsaan                    10180 SW  168th St .                      Miami          FL    33157        305-259-0042
Masjid Ibrahim                         6301 NW 6th Ave.                          Miami          FL   33150
Shamsuddin Masjid And Library  365 NE  167th St.                  Miami    FL   33162      786-428-0005
Masjid Miami
Muslim Communities Assoc of  South Florida    7350 NW 3Rd St         Miami        FL      33126     305-261-7622
Ummah of Miami             7904 West Dr. Unit 6                           Miami Beach        FL 3 33141
Masjid Al-Hijrah
Caribbean-American Islamic Association      6128 SW  27th St .           Miramar          FL    33023
Islamic  Center of  Naples             2520 Davel Blvd. 2Nd Fl. Unit  E        Naples           FL 34104    239-732-7136
Islamic Center of New Port Richey     4715 Grand Blvd                 New Port  Richey  FL   34652   727-834-9200
Isalmic Center of  Palm Beach         101 Castlewood Dr .             North Palm Beach  FL 33408    561-630-6899
Masjid Darul-Islam of  Ocala         6915 Sr 40                          Ocala                FL   34482      352-873-9959
Masjidu Tazkiah
Foundation of Lights                 120 Floral St.                         Ocoee               FL 34761      407-592-5457
Miami Gardens Masjid
Muslim Communities Association of  S. Florida   4305 Nw 183Rd St.  Opa  Locka    FL   33055   305-624-5555
Islamic Center of  Orange Park    116  Foxridge Rd.              Orange Park            FL     32065
Masjid Al-Quddus
Islamic Society of Central  Florida     312 S. Paramore Ave         Orlando              FL   32807
Jama Masjid
Islamic  Center of Orlando                11543 Ruby  Lake Rd.         Orlando              FL    32836     407-238-2700
Masjid Al-Rahim
Islamic Society of  Central Florida     4962 Old Winter Garden Rd.   Orlando  FL      32811     407-523-7882
Masjid Malik
Islamic Society of Central Florida    2018 Rouse Rd.                 Orlando      FL  32817        407-277-0133
Islamic Education Center of  Florida     2221 Harrell Rd.                Orlando      FL    32817       407-325-3647
Masjid Al-Rahman
Islamic Society of  Central Florida     1089 N. Goldenrod Road     Orlando       FL    32807       407-273-7750
Masjid Al-HaqIslamic Society of  Central Florida    545 W. Central Blvd.  Orlando  FL    32801     407-835-9600
Masjid Al-Aziz
Islamic Society of  Central Florida     9501 Satellite Blvd. Suite 110  Orlando  FL              32837
Bay  County Islamic Society         3312 Token Rd.                      Panama City     FL    32405   850-785-8085
Darul Uloom Masjid                     7050 Pines Blvd                     Pembroke Pines     FL   33024  954-963-9514
Al-Islam  Dawah  Center   1550  W. Barrancas Ave.       Pensacola      FL 32504                 850-435-7238
Islamic  Center of  Northwest Florida     3445 E. Johnson Ave.        Pensacola           FL 32514
American Islamic Center        7400 62Nd Terrace  North         Pinellas Park           FL 33781     727-520-6615
Bosnian Islamic Center               4255 73Rd Ave.  N               Pinellas Park           FL  33781
Masjid Ebad Ar-Rahman
Islamic Society of Pinellas             9400 67th St. N              Pinellas Park            FL   33782     727-546-3162
Musala Asalam Islamic
Center of  South Florida  507 NE  6th St .       Pompano Beach     FL      33030   954-946-2723
Islamic Community of SW  Florida    25148 Harborview Rd.   Port Charlotte     FL33980             941-625-8855
Masjid Al-Salam
Islamic Society of  Central Florida      2917 S. Orlando Dr .    Sanford  FL              32773
Husseini Islamic Center  5211 Hester Ave.                 Sanford  FL              32773
Islamic Society of  Sarasota &  Bradenton   4350 N. Lockwood Ridge Rd.     Sarasota FL  34234    941-351-3393
Masjid Al-Jabbar
Islamic Society of  Central Florida     5186 Shumacher Rd.  Sebring     FL     33872     386-860-9663
Islamic Center of Hernando County  6307 Barclay Ave.       Spring Hill         FL  34609
Islamic  Center of  St. Augustine   1760 Sr-207          St.  Augustine        FL32084    904-826-1991
Masjid Al-Muminin 3762 18th Ave.  South         St. Petersburg         FL 33707        727-327-8483
Masjid Al Sunnah
Islamic Society of  St. Petersburg             2401 6th St. S            St. Petersburg     FL  33705
Stuart Masjid                            2981 Se  Dominica Terrace            Stuart            FL 34997
Islamic Foundation of  South Florida     5457 Nw 108th Ave.               Sunrise          FL  33351    954-741-8130
Masjid Al Nahal                             115 Bragg Dr .

ALL OF A SUDDEN.
MESSAGE FROM A CONCERNED CITIZEN:

"Has everyone lost their ability to see what is happening in the USA? Think America! Before Obama, there was virtually no visible presence of Islam in America.

All of a sudden, Islam is taught in schools. All of a sudden, we must allow prayer rugs everywhere and allow for Islamic prayer in schools and businesses.

All of a sudden, we must stop serving pork in public places and institutions.

All of a sudden, we are inundated with law suits by Muslims who are offended by America. (For God's sake, they are IN America)

All of a sudden, we must allow burkas to be worn everywhere even though you have no idea who is covered up under them.

All of a sudden,Muslim training compounds are popping up throughout the USA.

All of a sudden, Muslims are suing employers for being expected to do their jobs.

All of a sudden, all of our aircraft carriers are recalled for maintenance by Obama rendering the Atlantic unsupported.

All of a sudden, our troops are withdrawn from the middle east.

All of a sudden, there is no money for American poor, disabled veterans, jobless Americans, hungry Americans, or displaced Americans, but there is endless money for Obama's refugee programs.

All of a sudden, Obama fills the Federal Government with Muslims in key positions.

All of a sudden, there is an ammunition shortage in the USA.

All of a sudden, Americans are threatened by the Federal government for complaining about Muslims.

All of a sudden, the most important thing for Obama to do is disarm American Citizens.


Now, why is it so important for Obama to disarm America? Why? Because a disarmed country is ripe for takeover by the Muslim Army that Obama has imported into the United States.

Nikita Krueschev, the Russian Dictator who visited the USA in the 1950s said the USA could never be occupied by any army because of it's citizen Army.

Obama knows this fact and is doing everything within his power to disarm our Citizen Army.

If Obama can't do it legally, he will abuse his power and take every gun from Americans because he knows he must do that to turn the USA over to Islam.

Be wary and watchful. Obama's actions speak far beyond his words. Obama won't even say the words "Islamic Terrorist", WHY?"..






*


----------



## qldfrog (23 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> Maybe 15 years of something doesn't work mean we ought to try some other means than endless wars for security at home.



or maybe
"Maybe 40 years of migration that doesn't work mean we ought to stop for security at home"
or send the european natives to the US as refugees as it will soon be easier in number.
.
We will not be surprised if the bombers are born and bred in Europe and have never been targeted by  any middle east warfare

I somewhat doubt the terrorists are German descendants vengefull of Dresden carpet bombing, 
Tokyo kids  remembering Hiroshima 
or serbians bombed in their hospitals by NATO just a few years ago when the US was supporting the Kosovar muslim fanatics (the only good russian is a dead one still being the motto of the US it seems)
So no the ME is not the only reason and probably not even relevant
But when you do not name your ennemy, how can you  combat it?

US commanders could not make the difference between Russians and Serbians as they use the same alphabet, and 
the idiotic attitude persists in Syria while the bombs explode in Paris/Bruxelle..and more to come..
People are afraid of Donald Trump but the US foreign policy since the Bush years and this includes Obama has been a pinnacle  of stupidity and tunnel vision.
Right now, when the Saudis, propaganda masters of the most backward and braindead form of islam, need more rockets to bomb the sh$t out of Yemmenis  the US will provide them straight from the US own stocks.
Behind each of these terrorists isthe shadow of our "good friends" : Saudis, Turkey shipping weapons to IS, Qatar, etc etc
With West allies like that , who needs ennemies...And who needs pretext like Syria, or any of these wonderful Arab spring places...


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## luutzu (23 March 2016)

qldfrog said:


> or maybe
> "Maybe 40 years of migration that doesn't work mean we ought to stop for security at home"
> or send the european natives to the US as refugees as it will soon be easier in number.
> .
> ...




Just in case, don't take what I say as in any way justifying terrorism or violence, from them or from us or from anyone. These act of murder are horrific and I hope them and their cells and members all get caught and all our streets and all people are safe.

Despite the propaganda and warwomgering that all Masters of Man tend to not mind too much, there is no justification for violence or illegal stuff when legal means of protest and activism are open if enough people care for it.

Now let's answer your concerns.

Yes, descendants of Hiroshima, Dresden, London and all those cities that were burnt or flatten during WW2 do not hold grudges and join terrorists. Why? It's not because they're more civilised or more forgiving while the Muslims are this and that...

It's because those wars and those crimes and the aggression have ceased, ceased decades ago.

People in general move on, get a job and feed their family. Young, disillusioned kids turn to drug, crimes, gangs and other callings... 

If we keep supporting endless wars, be it wars of liberation or wars to civilise Arabs from their religion or otherwise... we're just giving reasons for disillusioned or maybe just criminal/insane leaning people to take up and murder people to this or that cause.

You get more upset than usual when Paris and the French people were attacked and murdered. Why should not Arab or ME people not also get upset when the country of their ancestors are flatten and those victims who flee are treated and talked about as though they're animals or barbarians.

I'm sure most Arabs and Muslims all over the world do not like what is being done to people similar to them in the ME... but most are not violent and try to shrug it off. Then there are some, for whatever reason, thought not to shrug it off and join whatever group that give their life meanings etc. etc.

---

So we can either explain all these terrorism against us on our soil as just them nasty Muslims and evil Islam teaching followers to kill innocent people, if we want to feel better about the world.

Want to solve or at least try to understand the causes so that we might have or vote for or demand sensible solution... Then start to try and understand the root and the real causes. 

This war on terror... we're all paying for it. Both with innocent lives on our side, and tens of millions of dead and destroyed innocent lives on their sides and of course countless terrorists and a few dictators.

If we think that's the way to do it... alright. Just don't be too surprised when China claim and armed the entire SE Asia and we and our allies can't do much about any demand they care to make because fighting countless wars on three continents, one sub-continent, and also at home, never was feasible - not even for Rome or Britannia. And Rome and Britain didn't have to deal domestic terrorism at their height.

---

So leave the "they hate us because they're evil and envious" stuff to the politicians. We the people can and should think a bit. Maybe then we can stop all these wars and gung-ho speeches about genocide and superiority of Western values and democracy we don't even have.

May saves our own lives, definitely save their innocent lives. And most definitely save us hundreds of millions of dollars on cyber and territorial securities and billions of hardware to fight enemies that tend to only grow because blowing up people's places tend to not make them like us.

We could use a few of those bucks on roads and schools and hospitals... all after tax cuts to corporations and job creators of course.


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## DB008 (23 March 2016)

dutchie said:


> Trump is right - stop all Islamic immigration.




Hmm......

​


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## Macquack (23 March 2016)

noco said:


> Is this what we might expect in Australia one day soon?
> 
> *
> All of a sudden, the most important thing for Obama to do is disarm American Citizens.
> ...




Do you honestly believe this rubbish?

Must repeat to myself," Noco is good entertainment value, Noco is good entertainment value."


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## sptrawler (23 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> Retribution has been swift: The Eiffel Tower, Brandenburg Gate and the Trevi Fountain have been lit up in the colours of Brussel's flag !! That's gotta strike fear in the hearts of the bad guys, that and the onslaught of reporting by Sunrise and Today.
> 
> Meanwhile there is a woman in Melbourne yesterday, who has been daylight abducted and sexually assaulted by a gang of men......  first gen negroid gangs violently running amock in Melbourne....... in NSW a gang of youth who have been extorting money to be sent off to the cause ... and our PM telling us this morning we are sweet from violence, except for the real problem = unions and construction EBAs.... it's all Bill Shorten' and Clive Palmer's fault of course.




That's a pretty sad post, Tisme.
Maybe you could post up the pre Federal Labor Government term in office, African gang violence, in Melbourne.
Then we can see if Bill is in some way reponsible, for the labor period of mass immigration, from all and sundry. 
To support your post.
There seems to be a massive increase in machette based violence, since Labors open borders policy.IMO


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## Wysiwyg (23 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> *So leave the "they hate us because they're evil and envious" stuff to the politicians.* We the people can and should think a bit. Maybe then we can stop all these wars and gung-ho speeches about genocide and superiority of Western values and democracy we don't even have.



Human beings killing other human beings may never be thought out of existence. It has always been and may always be. Good killings and bad killings or the eternal battle between (perceived) good and evil is what we are. Dominance, control, fear, persecution, suppression and pure hate is well and truly part of the human psyche. Can (perceived) evil be taught out of mind or is there a glitch that perpetuates it eternally? Look at the (thought orientated) behaviour of KimJung Un! As an individual his liberty would be taken from him for such behaviour but in 'power' as he is, he will let fellow countrymen suffer for him.

Human mind, the ability to create good and the ability to create evil, has always been. :frown:, , :1zhelp:, , , .


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## Tisme (24 March 2016)

qldfrog said:


> or maybe
> 
> .
> We will not be surprised if the bombers are born and bred in Europe and have never been targeted by  any middle east warfare
> ...




Seems your crystal ball is working well there


----------



## qldfrog (24 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> Seems your crystal ball is working well there




Just that Luutzu believes truely that the middle east mess is involved in a way in the aspirations of these born and bred in Europe guys to blow everything up.
The rosy picture portrayed by the left generally but not only, genuinely does not want to consider that religion IS the factor.
The fact that the muslims terrorists are from arab background is just  the result of european policies of the past.
With the same radical training, indonesian or black africa origins would results in the same outcomes with no need for permanent conflict to inflame the dim wits.
Islam is not bad but the fanatical version spread amoung billions by the Saudis (salafism) is the equivalent of the rabid Christian in the US.Religion is the problem, and it can only worsen the more we import the fanatical view via unwanted migration (I wanted to use illegal but in Europe law does not mean anything anymore) and/or tacid support of the "evangelists" already there.Aim is clearly world domination: except for south america?, i believe they are on their way worldwide.
So yes migration is key in that regard and especially muslim one.
Are people "bad' because they are muslims? of course not but a blanket policy is the best way for a society as a whole to preserve itself.
Immunisation is good for society but may be bad for a few individuals, so any decent government should apply it for the common good;
Selective migration is the same.
Europe failed and is a done deal, wait for the current wave offsprings to get in their 20s and news will not be as mild.

This is before even considering any economic/social structure and  ecological  impact of migration, and the effect on countries of origin as well as "hosting/invaded" ones .Anyway have all a nice easter.


----------



## Tisme (24 March 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Just that Luutzu believes truely that the middle east mess is involved in a way in the aspirations of these born and bred in Europe guys to blow everything up.
> .................




Luutzu is so thankful for the sanctuary of Australia and freedom of expression his family were denied, that he is telecasting that experience and gratitude onto others who have the highly undesirable experience of unmitigating fear, barbarism, war and all round deprivation. 

I don't blame him, but although the 90's started the myth about Australian being a compassionate soft heart place, our tradition is really intolerance of newbs coming to our dirt patch and sh!*ting the mob ... it's an initiation most of our family trees have had to endure, ethnicity, religion, w4nkers... they all come in for stick.


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## SirRumpole (24 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> Luutzu is so thankful for the sanctuary of Australia and freedom of expression his family were denied, that he is telecasting that experience and gratitude onto others who have the highly undesirable experience of unmitigating fear, barbarism, war and all round deprivation.
> 
> I don't blame him, but although the 90's started the myth about Australian being a compassionate soft heart place, our tradition is really intolerance of newbs coming to our dirt patch and sh!*ting the mob ... it's an initiation most of our family trees have had to endure, ethnicity, religion, w4nkers... they all come in for stick.




There are more reasons to cut down on immigration than terrorism, although that is a good one.

Jobs are disappearing due to technology and foreign competition, so who is going to pay all these 'consumers' to consume ?


----------



## qldfrog (24 March 2016)

Tisme said:


> Luutzu is so thankful for the sanctuary of Australia and freedom of expression his family were denied, that he is telecasting that experience and gratitude onto others who have the highly undesirable experience of unmitigating fear, barbarism, war and all round deprivation.
> 
> I don't blame him, but although the 90's started the myth about Australian being a compassionate soft heart place, our tradition is really intolerance of newbs coming to our dirt patch and sh!*ting the mob ... it's an initiation most of our family trees have had to endure, ethnicity, religion, w4nkers... they all come in for stick.



True,
i am a migrant myself and I believe Luutzu as you say (but he is symptomatic of a whole part of western society) compares the wave of migration he/his family came with to the one we see with ME/Pakistan/Bangladesh moves and has a kind of "we are the same, we have been" there misplaced solidarity;
I believe this view is sadly sincere and the shock will be big the day these persons realise how wrong they were.
They believe my (and others similar) attitude is the same as the underlying racism he has had to face I am sure in Australia. Even as white skinned  european, as soon as i start speaking, I sometimes find undertones not so pleasant.
But it could not be so far from the truth: economic/ecology discarded, I enjoy multicultural society and would favor migration.Europe is a giant multicultural microcosm.But I first want to save the country i now call home and belong.
Anyway, the positive of these deaths is that it may save some more lives here and I believe in the US.
30 deaths is nothing as opposed to the number of lives destroyed in a normal year in Fance or Belgium by the result of previous unchecked migrations: the rapes, the bashing, kniffing and mugging, the livehoods destroyed, etc etc But that is never in the news....


----------



## luutzu (24 March 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Just that Luutzu believes truely that the middle east mess is involved in a way in the aspirations of these born and bred in Europe guys to blow everything up.
> The rosy picture portrayed by the left generally but not only, genuinely does not want to consider that religion IS the factor.
> The fact that the muslims terrorists are from arab background is just  the result of european policies of the past.
> With the same radical training, indonesian or black africa origins would results in the same outcomes with no need for permanent conflict to inflame the dim wits.
> ...




I take it your fever is gone.

I don't see your position as out of racism, maybe prejudice. But prejudice is not bad, it's just misinformation. And we all cannot know or care to know about all things.

So let's assume for a second that my position is not out of some left wing idiotic ideal, but out of considered judgment. That even though we might disagree, we both want Australia to be great (not that it ever were not great) and free and safe...

So there are two main approach to that vision for a great Australia. Which one is practical, moral and effective...

First, I don't agree that "some people" have to be sacrificed if that's what it takes.

When people, particularly leaders, talk about sacrifices... I don't take it seriously unless they're the one doing the sacrificing. 

So to send other people's children off to war and that's a sacrifice the leadership is willing to make... that's messed up. Or crack a few of their heads if that's the sacrifice it takes... can't, shouldn't, do things like that.

Second, to preserve our way of life, our society and value... is NOT to blanket a group of people; or be "tough" and hard on all of them - just in case.


We don't need to go back any length of time, or imagine and philosophize, to know the kind of policy you believe in, and most gov't and politicians tend to want... it results in both insecurity, economic decline, moral decay, racism, barbarism on both the national and the personal level.

Look at Israel.

They've been purifying their land off Arabs/Palestinians. Been waging war almost constantly against terrorism. Making "sacrifices" so that their people can live in a paradise among the jungle, as they like to believe... Look what the result has been to both their country and their children.


----------



## luutzu (24 March 2016)

SirRumpole said:


> There are more reasons to cut down on immigration than terrorism, although that is a good one.
> 
> Jobs are disappearing due to technology and foreign competition, so who is going to pay all these 'consumers' to consume ?




They pay for themselves. They'll work, do low pay dirty work.. and all have yet to know how to use high-priced accountants to not pay tax so it'd be OK.


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## SirRumpole (24 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> They pay for themselves. They'll work, do low pay dirty work.. and all have yet to know how to use high-priced accountants to not pay tax so it'd be OK.




That's the way it used to be with Italians, Vietnamese migrants. They did work hard. But it's increasing clear that a lot of recent migrants have found the benefits of our social security system beats having to work for a living, or else they run successful illegal enterprises.


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## wayneL (24 March 2016)

I wonder what Belgian for Neville Chamberlain is?


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## qldfrog (24 March 2016)

*
Which one is practical, moral and effective...*
Why should it be moral?

*First, I don't agree that "some people" have to be sacrificed if that's what it takes.*
and definitively a point where we differ.But nothing new.


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## luutzu (24 March 2016)

wayneL said:


> I wonder what Belgian for Neville Chamberlain is?




Appeasement in Arabic: ترضية

Have said it before, England and Chamberlain didn't appease Hitler because England got all dovey and don't like another chance to expand its empire. They appease because they have no other choice.

Big massive dominions and colonies all over the globe full of savages and barbarians to keep an eye on. Just finished a deadly expensive war with actual nations who has the hardware to be of some match; a tired, weary, impoverished population with a lot less abled young bodies to take on the fight... So Chamberlain have to appease and pray Hitler won't want world domination after he take out a few European neighbours.

What's China doing right now?

And what are we in the West doing to stop them? China! be noice.

China is practically claiming two entire oceans, upsetting some half dozen countries. And our big brother is in no position to even convince those unhappy Asians to join together with Western values to oppose China's claim to these strategic and resource rich seas.

Why?

Maybe because the Asian tigers aren't convinced that the US and the West could check China when push come to shove. It'd be a lonely and harsh world to join an alliance and your little self are the only one coming to the battlefield.

Why would they believe that?

We're at war with bloody Russia; just getting busy all over Africa; then of course the entire Middle East... then on top of all these costly, big expensive mayhem... the domestic economies aren't doing well, infrastructure are crumbling, the population are pretty much not happy, can't tax corporations or rich people - and that doesn't include the Muslims and their terrorism.


So you want to see appeasement, don't need to look that far back to Chamberlain.


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## wayneL (24 March 2016)

That wasn't my question, but thanks for the answer. Agreed.


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## luutzu (24 March 2016)

qldfrog said:


> *
> Which one is practical, moral and effective...*
> Why should it be moral?
> 
> ...




We should be moral because Jesus and God, as opposed to Allah, taught us to be moral. Western values right?

That and maybe being moral you attract good honest people to your cause. Sometime it's also the right thing to do.

Yea well, some find it sensible to make sacrifices at other people's lives and expense; some don't.


----------



## qldfrog (24 March 2016)

luutzu said:


> We should be moral because Jesus and God, as opposed to Allah, taught us to be moral. Western values right?
> 
> That and maybe being moral you attract good honest people to your cause. Sometime it's also the right thing to do.
> 
> Yea well, some find it sensible to make sacrifices at other people's lives and expense; some don't.



Aa a government, it is your duty to "sacrifices other people's lives" to save the people who elected you and pay you ; This is not "moral" but this is your duty. 
Doing otherwise is treason to use a strong word but nevertheless appropriate for the european leaders who let/have let the invasion go unchecked.
But that was too good for their re election chances and big corporate friends, ensuring ongoing unemployment, passive and poor neuterised masses brainwashed from early schooling to daily media feed.
They will probably follow the trend, turn their coats and sacrifice some poor (muslim) buggers to the vindict while having grand "Islam is not in cause" walk hand in hand with the local "community" leader just off his plane from Ryiad.And let another millions or two of customers and welfare recipients in.


----------



## luutzu (24 March 2016)

qldfrog said:


> Aa a government, it is your duty to "sacrifices other people's lives" to save the people who elected you and pay you ; This is not "moral" but this is your duty.
> Doing otherwise is treason to use a strong word but nevertheless appropriate for the european leaders who let/have let the invasion go unchecked.
> But that was too good for their re election chances and big corporate friends, ensuring ongoing unemployment, passive and poor neuterised masses brainwashed from early schooling to daily media feed.
> They will probably follow the trend, turn their coats and sacrifice some poor (muslim) buggers to the vindict while having grand "Islam is not in cause" walk hand in hand with the local "community" leader just off his plane from Ryiad.And let another millions or two of customers and welfare recipients in.




No one's arguing that criminals and public enemies shouldn't be locked up and punished. I'm not arguing we let terrorists roam the streets or shouldn't bring them to justice. 

So crimes ought to be punished. If punishment is what we and our politicians meant by sacrifices on the criminals' part, then of course... criminals need to be punished.

But that is totally different from blanketed annihilation of all people who look and sound like the current enemy of the state.

It's that kind of talk that permit "our" leader or leader wanna-be to talk of genocide and committing war crimes and literal crimes against humanity for "our security", or the "security" of our "friends".

Watch Hillary Clinton and practically all the Republican presidential candidate... They all talk about peace and security in the same breath as nuking Iran and carpet bomb Syria, Iraq and all them countries. 

It's a bit messed up that not too many of us civilised folks hears that and not goes wtf. 

---

Anyway... the war on terror has gone on, officially anyway, for 15 years right? Are we safer or should we get really serious about it because overthrowing a few dictators and starting fire to an entire region just aren't serious enough.

Again, should learn from Israel. Watch that interview above.

Gideon Levy is an Israeli journalist who actually walk the streets of Israel and Palestine and is sickened by what he witnessed over the 3 decades there.

Some of his observations:

- A lot of those Israelis are psychologically insane (referring to their rabid hatred for the Palestinians);
- Israeli youths are getting more and more ignorant. They know nothing about nothing. (you got to dumb down the population to get them to do ethnic cleansing);
- Nothing DBS or any movement could do to harm Israel more than Israel's own crimes and policies.

Anyway, the West is rich and can do a lot of things. Insecurity, decline and ruins or not won't be the fault of other people.


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## Bill M (25 March 2016)

This video came to me by email today. It is a must watch as to what is happening in Europe. The good, the bad and the ugly.


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## luutzu (26 March 2016)

Bill M said:


> This video came to me by email today. It is a must watch as to what is happening in Europe. The good, the bad and the ugly.





Looks to me the "good" bits are made to show how naive and silly it is to be good.


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## DB008 (15 July 2016)

Bastille Day - 70+ dead. Method; run a truck into the crowd.

Religion of Peace ™


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## DB008 (23 July 2016)

*Munich shooting: at least eight dead as police treat attack as terrorism and hunt for three gunmen​*


> Munich police are hunting for a possible three gunmen who they believe have carried out an attack at a shopping centre and McDonalds restaurant.
> 
> On Twitter, the local forces said shootings had taken place at Hanauer street, which is the location of both the Olympia shopping center and the adjoining McDonalds.
> 
> ...




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/22/shots-fired-at-munich-shopping-centre/​
Religion of Peace ™


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## moXJO (23 July 2016)

DB008 said:


> *Munich shooting: at least eight dead as police treat attack as terrorism and hunt for three gunmen​*
> 
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/22/shots-fired-at-munich-shopping-centre/​
> Religion of Peace ™




Have they confirmed it yet?
There were talks of it being a breivik supporter.


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## qldfrog (23 July 2016)

moXJO said:


> Have they confirmed it yet?
> There were talks of it being a breivik supporter.




Tongue in cheek I hope..but still 9 deads from what I have last heard and the scumbags have not been liquidated yet


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## basilio (24 July 2016)

Can we get it right about the Munich massacre in McDonalds ?

*This has nothing to do with Muslim terrorists. * The kid was just a psycho who decided to kill a number of fellow students who he said were bullying him. 


> *
> Munich shooting: Facebook trap of the McDonald's murderer Ali David Sonboly*
> July 24 2016 - 9:33AM
> 
> ...




http://www.watoday.com.au/world/mun...lds-murderer-ali-sonboly-20160723-gqcfep.html


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## noco (24 July 2016)

basilio said:


> Can we get it right about the Munich massacre in McDonalds ?
> 
> *This has nothing to do with Muslim terrorists. * The kid was just a psycho who decided to kill a number of fellow students who he said were bullying him.
> 
> ...




:band:band

Geez Bas, I have never seen you so happy that it was not a radical Muslim.


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## luutzu (24 July 2016)

noco said:


> :band:band
> 
> Geez Bas, I have never seen you so happy that it was not a radical Muslim.




Not happy. Relieved. 

Aren't we all relieved? There are calls for liquidation and some kind of solution already right?

If it's a Arab who frequent a Mosque... wooo man... there are solutions for that kind of terror. But since it's some crazy mental case, what can we do - that's life, there are psychos around and it's not like the gov't can wage war or fund mental health crisis; or fund education and job programs so that family aren't broken and kids aren't depressed and isolated without hope... Islam and Muslims - there's a solution for that; domestic crises... what can ya do.


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## DB008 (25 July 2016)

Another attack in Germany. Is that 4 within a week now?


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## qldfrog (25 July 2016)

noco said:


> :band:band
> 
> Geez Bas, I have never seen you so happy that it was not a radical Muslim.



Don't even count on that, check facts in a week.Merkel is just having a last ditch at trying to save her skin


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## DB008 (27 July 2016)

Another day, another terrorist attack in France.

Hostages taken in a church in France. Priest's throat slashed, 2 attackers shot dead by police. ISIS claim credit.

Crazy


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## DB008 (27 July 2016)

DB008 said:


> Another day, another terrorist attack in France.
> 
> Hostages taken in a church in France. Priest's throat slashed, 2 attackers shot dead by police. ISIS claim credit.
> 
> Crazy




*RIP​*

​


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## DB008 (12 August 2016)

*German intelligence warns of IS ‘hit squads’ among refugees​*



> German intelligence services have evidence that “hit squads” from the Islamic State terror group have infiltrated the country disguised as refugees, the deputy head of Bavaria’s spy agency told the BBC Thursday.
> 
> “We have to accept that we have hit squads and sleeper cells in Germany,” Manfred Hauser, the vice president of the Bavaria region’s intelligence gathering agency, BayLfV, told the Today program.
> 
> ...





http://www.politico.eu/article/german-intelligence-warns-of-is-hit-squads-among-refugees/​


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## luutzu (14 August 2016)

*
Fractured Lands: How the Arab World Came Apart*

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/08/11/magazine/isis-middle-east-arab-spring-fractured-lands.html?_r=0



> This is a story unlike any we have previously published. It is much longer than the typical New York Times Magazine feature story; in print, it occupies an entire issue. The product of some 18 months of reporting, it tells the story of the catastrophe that has fractured the Arab world since the invasion of Iraq 13 years ago, leading to the rise of ISIS and the global refugee crisis. The geography of this catastrophe is broad and its causes are many, but its consequences ”” war and uncertainty throughout the world ”” are familiar to us all. Scott Anderson’s story gives the reader a visceral sense of how it all unfolded, through the eyes of six characters in Egypt, Libya, Syria, Iraq and Iraqi Kurdistan. Accompanying Anderson’s text are 10 portfolios by the photographer Paolo Pellegrin, drawn from his extensive travels across the region over the last 14 years, as well as a landmark virtual-reality experience that embeds the viewer with the Iraqi fighting forces during the battle to retake Falluja.
> 
> It is unprecedented for us to focus so much energy and attention on a single story, and to ask our readers to do the same. We would not do so were we not convinced that what follows is one of the most clear-eyed, powerful and human explanations of what has gone wrong in this region that you will ever read.
> 
> – JAKE SILVERSTEIN, EDITOR IN CHIEF


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## DB008 (14 August 2016)

*New Sharia Police Patrol Forming In Hamburg​*


> Islamic State and “Sharia Police” stickers have been seen on vehicles in Hamburg, and some fear that extremists may try and harass residents. However, police and security services have denied these reports.
> At least one witness has came forward claiming that she has seen Islamic State logos and sharia police slogans on a car in Hamburg. According to the woman, she saw a car at a traffic light populated by three women wearing the Islamic full-face veil, the hood of the car was described as having a large logo on it with a blue border which read: “Sharia Police”.
> 
> Now some fear that the so-called sharia patrols that harassed the residents of Wuppertal in 2014 could be returning to German streets, reports Die Welt.
> ...





http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/12/new-sharia-police-patrol-forming-hamburg/​


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## DB008 (14 August 2016)

Germany heading down this road...


​


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## Tisme (15 August 2016)

Got this in my emails today....it's gotta be real 



> PLEASE.  IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO FORWARD THIS TO ANYONE, AT LEAST READ THE LAST SENTENCE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## basilio (15 August 2016)

Nice one Tisme.  This story is 7 years old and, as usual, just creative bunkum.

Doesn't stop it being repeatedly circulated and poison ing the well.
Snopes did it's normal analysis of the story

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/flight297.asp


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## CanOz (15 August 2016)

basilio said:


> Nice one Tisme.  This story is 7 years old and, as usual, just creative bunkum.
> 
> Doesn't stop it being repeatedly circulated and poison ing the well.
> Snopes did it's normal analysis of the story
> ...




Can't use Snopes Bas, noco single handily debunked Snope


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## Tisme (15 August 2016)

CanOz said:


> Can't use Snopes Bas, noco single handily debunked Snope





That line gave me a real belly laugh ... thanks for that


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## DB008 (18 August 2017)

*Barcelona and Cambrils attacks: Police name suspected van driver after five terrorists shot dead - latest news*​

*Second terror attack in Spain at coastal resort of Cambrils*
*Five terrorists shot dead by police after ramming civilians*
*Attack comes after 13 people killed in van attack in Barcelona*
*Police name teenager they are hunting as suspected driver*
*Investigators fear terror cell had planned gas canister attack*
*Who are the victims? Three-year-old reported among dead*
*Who are the suspects in the Spanish terror attacks?*
*Everything we know about first attack on Spain in 13 years*

Five terrorists wearing fake suicide belts have been shot dead by police after ramming civilians with a car in a Spanish seaside town in a second vehicle attack, as police named a man being hunted as the suspected Barcelona van driver.

Seven people, including a police officer, were injured in Cambrils - hours after a rampaging van driver left 13 people dead and more than 100 wounded around 70 miles away in Barcelona.

Police have named the suspected Barcelona van driver they are hunting as 18-year-old Moussa Oukabir. He is the brother of Driss Oukabir, a 28-year-old Moroccan who is alleged to have rented the vehicle.

Investigators revealed that a 12-strong terror cell thought to have been behind the two Spanish attacks is believed to have been planning an atrocity with gas canisters.

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant has claimed responsibility for the attack, the deadliest on Spanish soil since more than 190 people died in the Madrid train bombs in 2004. Stay with us for the latest updates.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/barcelona-terror-attack-cambrils-las-ramblas-latest/​


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## Tisme (30 December 2017)

Macquack said:


> "*Jews have been expelled from 109 Nations" *(and more...)
> 
> 
> 
> Can't blame the muslems for all of that history.






RACIST!


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## DB008 (2 September 2018)

*Amsterdam stabbing suspect who injured two Americans had 'terrorist' motive, officials say*​
An Afghan man shot by police at Amsterdam's central station on Friday after stabbing two American tourists had a "terrorist" motive, city officials say.

The suspect, who was identified as a 19-year-old Afghan with a German residence permit, was questioned on Saturday in hospital where he was being treated for gunshot wounds to his lower body.

German police searched the man's house at the request of their Dutch colleagues and seized several data carriers, the authorities said.

The suspect, who is being held in solitary confinement, will be brought before a judge on Monday to decide whether he should remain in custody.

The two people injured in the incident were American citizens, the US ambassador to the Netherlands said in a statement on Saturday.

Ambassador Pete Hoekstra said the pair were tourists visiting the city.

They remained in hospital with serious injuries, local police said.

Earlier this week, Dutch police arrested a 26-year-old man suspected of threatening to attack far-right politician Geert Wilders over his plan to hold a contest of cartoons depicting Islam's Prophet Mohammad.

Wilders cancelled the contest citing security risks, as thousands of people in Pakistan marched in protest of his plan, while the Taliban in Afghanistan called for attacks on Dutch troops serving in the country.

The National Coordinator for Counter-terrorism and Security Policy said the national threat level in the Netherlands was unchanged at "substantial", or one notch below the highest.

Since attacks by Islamist radicals in France, Belgium, Britain and Germany, the Netherlands has been considered a target, because it supports US-led military operations against Islamic State in the Middle East.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-...t-had-terrorist-motive-officials-say/10191890​


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## DB008 (10 September 2018)

*Paris knife attack: Seven injured, four seriously*​Seven people have been injured, four seriously, in an attack by a man wielding a knife and an iron bar in the French capital, Paris, police say.

The attack took place just before 23:00 (21:00 GMT) on the banks of a canal in Paris's 19th district.

People playing a game of pétanque nearby threw balls at the attacker to try to stop him.

The man, said to be Afghan, was later arrested. The incident is currently not being treated as a terrorist attack.

The man initially stabbed two men and a woman near the MK2 cinema on the quai de Loire, along the Ourcq canal, reports say.

Eyewitness Youssef Najah, 28, said he was walking beside the canal when he saw a man running and holding a knife about 25-30cm (10-11 inches) long.

"There were around 20 people chasing him. They started throwing pétanque balls at him," he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45468082​


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## DB008 (24 March 2019)

Hmm...  

*German police arrest 10 people on suspicion of planning Islamist attack*​

Police in Germany have arrested 10 people on suspicion of planning an Islamist attack.​
The arrests were made after some 200 police officers carried out raids in the states of Hesse and Rhineland-Palatinate.​
The men had plotted to "kill as many 'non-believers' as possible" using a vehicle and guns, prosecutors said.​
A 21-year-old man from Offenbach, near Frankfurt, and two 31-year-old brothers from Wiesbaden are the main suspects.​
"They had already made contact with different arms dealers, rented a large vehicle and collected financial assets to use for the purchase of guns and the execution of the planned murders," a spokeswoman for the prosecutor's office said.​
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47677657​


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## DB008 (25 April 2019)

Well, 2019 isn't looking good so far

*Christchurch Shooting - March*​
The Christchurch mosque shootings were two consecutive terrorist attacks at mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, during Friday Prayer on 15 March 2019. The attacks began at the Al Noor Mosque in the suburb of Riccarton at 1:40 pm and continued at the Linwood Islamic Centre at about 1:55 pm. The gunman live-streamed the first attack on Facebook Live.​
The attacks killed 50 people and injured 50 others. A 28-year-old Australian man, described in media reports as a white supremacist and part of the alt-right, was arrested and charged with murder. The attacks have been linked to an increase in white supremacism and alt-right extremism globally observed since the mid-2010s. Politicians and world leaders condemned the attacks, and Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern described it as "one of New Zealand's darkest days." The government has established a royal commission of inquiry into its security agencies in the wake of the attacks, which are the deadliest mass shootings in modern New Zealand history.​
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchurch_mosque_shootings​

*Sri Lanka Easter bombings - April*​
The 2019 Sri Lanka Easter bombings were a series of coordinated terrorist attacks that occurred on 21 April 2019, Easter Sunday, when three Christian churches across Sri Lanka and three luxury hotels in the commercial capital Colombo were targeted in a series of suicide bombings. Later that day, there were smaller explosions at a housing complex in Dematagoda and a guest house in Dehiwala. At least 359 people were killed, including at least 39 foreign nationals and three police officers, and at least 500 were injured.​
The church bombings were carried out during Easter services in Negombo, Batticaloa and Colombo; the hotels bombed were the Shangri-La, Cinnamon Grand, Kingsbury and Tropical Inn. A minor explosion was also recorded in Savoy Cinema, Colombo during the raids conducted by police officers on 24 April 2019.​
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Sri_Lanka_Easter_bombings*​


And today - ANZAC Day 2019


*Suspected Islamic State member arrested over alleged plan to attack Gallipoli dawn service*​
Turkish authorities say they have arrested a suspected Islamic State member they believe was planning to attack the Anzac commemorations at Gallipoli attended by hundreds of Australians and New Zealanders.

The suspect, a 26-year-old Syrian national, was detained in Tekirdag, a north-western province close to the Gallipoli peninsula, a local police spokesman told Reuters.

Turkish security sources told the ABC that the planned attack on Gallipoli was in retaliation for the Christchurch mosque attacks.
Turkish media (Aydınlık) say person in custody over alleged plan to attack Anzac service in Gallipoli “was caught after some lS members were caught in Osmaniye city - his phone number was found on their phones and he was tracked“ @1NewsNZ - they say this is his photo

Authorities evacuated the memorial site and searched for bombs or other threats, but found nothing. Hundreds of Australians and New Zealanders are expected to attend services there later today.

Turkey banned its own citizens from attending the Anzac Day dawn service due to security concerns.

The suspect was identified in Turkish media simply as "A H", but the name Abdulkerim H later emerged, along with a blurred passport photo.

The IS suspect was arrested at 7:00am on Wednesday, and the arrest was connected to earlier arrests of IS suspects in the past 10 days.

Four Syrian suspects were arrested on April 16, including an alleged IS emir, or team leader. One other suspect was arrested on April 18.​https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04...ate-member-planning-gallipoli-attack/11045126​


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## DB008 (1 December 2019)

*London Bridge: attacker had been jailed for al-Qaida*
*inspired bomb plot*​
A man and a woman were killed in a terror attack in London carried out by an Islamist extremist who had been jailed for an al-Qaida inspired bomb plot and was recently released on licence.

Scotland Yard are investigating how 28-year-old Usman Khan was able to launch the attack in London Bridge on Friday, despite being known to the authorities and fitted with an electronic tag to monitor his movements. He was allowed out a year ago after serving time for his part in a plot to blow up the London Stock Exchange.

In the early hours of Saturday, officers confirmed earlier reports that Khan began his attack inside Fishmongers’ Hall, near the north end of the bridge, during a University of Cambridge-organised conference on rehabilitating offenders. Officers believe he acted alone.

“The circumstances, as we currently understand them, are that the attacker attended an event earlier on Friday afternoon at Fishmongers’ Hall called ‘Learning Together’. We believe that the attack began inside before he left the building and proceeded onto London Bridge, where he was detained and subsequently confronted and shot by armed officers,” said the Met police assistant commissioner, Neil Basu.

The two people who died have not yet been named. A man and two women were also injured. The casualties were taken to the Royal London hospital in Whitechapel, one of the capital’s four designated major trauma centres. NHS England said on Friday night that one of the three injured was critical but stable, a second was stable and a third had suffered less serious injuries.​
[URL]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2019/nov/29/how-the-london-bridge-terror-attack-unfolded-video-report[/URL]​


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## DB008 (5 December 2019)

*AFP arrest alleged Sydney Islamic State recruiter over radicalisation of teenagers*​
Federal police have arrested a 21-year-old Sydney man they allege was an Islamic State (IS) recruiter who tried to radicalise teenagers into carrying out politically motivated violence.

The Australian Federal Police (AFP) said the Riverwood man is expected to be charged with several terrorism offences, which carried a potential life sentence if he was to be found guilty.

AFP Assistant Commissioner Ian McCartney said the Australian-born man was connected to other individuals who have been charged with terrorism offences, but would not disclose who they were.

He said the man "created and posted increasingly extremist material on social media, including supporting martyrdom".

The AFP said the man also downloaded a "document on basic weapons and tactics", which included how to use knives and other blunt instruments during a terrorist attack.

"It will be further alleged he actively attempted to influence teenagers to adopt and act upon his extremist views," Assistant Commissioner McCartney said.

"It was fair to say there was a continuum of radicalisation … to the point of encouraging politically-motivated violence."

Police said the man was using several different social media platforms to indoctrinate young people between 17 and 18 years old.

While police have warrants to search two properties in Sydney's south-west, the Assistant Commissioner said there was no attack, imminent threat or further arrests planned.

The arrest of the Sydney man comes days after two people were killed during a knife attack on London Bridge.

While the terror incident in the UK was concerning to AFP investigators, particularly around how intense media coverage could influence other extremists, the arrest was not connected.

"We decided to act early because we needed to, we were concerned … our number one priority was the safety of the people in NSW," the Assistant Commissioner said.

The AFP admitted it had taken advantage of digital surveillance powers granted to it by the Federal Government in this case.

"We were able to use this legislation in terms of getting behind the veil of encryption and that was a key aspect leading to this action today," Assistant Commissioner McCartney said.

He did not elaborate on this point further.​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12...ter-arrested-over-terrorism-offences/11765520​


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