# Are the Libs/Nats fit to govern?



## Garpal Gumnut (26 February 2012)

Without a doubt I feel the Lib/Nat Coalition are fit to govern.

Even without replacing the mayhem that passes for an ALP government, there are talented people by the dozen in the Opposition ranks in their own right ready to guide this great country in to the future.

Most of the Lib/Nat members of parliament have actually held jobs in other than union or public service sinecures.

It is time for the workers to lead the country.

gg


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## bellenuit (26 February 2012)

Yes


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## Calliope (26 February 2012)

Good thread GG..

Now is the opportunity for the balanced opinions of Cynic, Focus, Macquack and the usual suspects, after their failure to defend Labor in the other thread.


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## nulla nulla (26 February 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Without a doubt I feel the Lib/Nat Coalition are fit to govern.
> 
> Even without replacing the mayhem that passes for an ALP government, there are talented people by the dozen in the Opposition ranks in their own right ready to guide this great country in to the future.
> 
> ...




Humour is the best medicine. GG your posts are generally always good for a laugh.  . The build up of the libs/nat coalition like a newly converted bible basher then the punch line...

*"It is time for the workers to lead the party".*

Gotta love it.


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## joea (26 February 2012)

Hi.
If you put it into perspective, Rudd won in 2007 with basically no policy's, so they had a bit of a slow start.
In 2010, if Abbott would have won he would have had a bit of a battle to govern as well. 

At this point in time "politics" has become something we want to forget.
Abbott has "combined the party" , and taken the Liberal policy's and polished them with feed back from voters and business.
I believe they have about 5 to complete.

One would now think in 2012, his opportunity is not far away.
I believe that Abbott has developed over the last 3 years.
I note that he refers to his party as "We", and not I. This gets 10 out of 10 from me.

One would think he should be given the opportunity, to clean up the current mess that has developed in the last 12 months.
joea


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 February 2012)

Tony Abbott ‏ @TonyAbbottMHR Close
@wilsonb8 Let's not drag GG into it. The indeps gave us this govt. Now they should get rid of it

Tony Abbott is reading ASF.

Good on you Tony.

gg


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## Starcraftmazter (26 February 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Even without replacing the mayhem that passes for an ALP government, there are talented people by the dozen in the Opposition ranks in their own right ready to guide this great country in to the future.




If they were talented, they would not be politicians.



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Most of the Lib/Nat members of parliament have actually held jobs in other than union or public service sinecures.




So in other words, instead of having one set of vested interests (unions supporting workers), they have another set of vested interests (private businesses loyal to shareholders). That sounds just great.


Liberals are probably the least capable of leading the country. One only needs to look at the atrocities of the Howard government - the first home owners grant, the negative gearing, the ramping of the housing bubble and actively encouraging people to speculate on property. The bastardisation of public assets of a cost of tens of billions to the current government.

The mining boom was completely unmanaged, and we do not have a sovereign wealth fund.


What did we get out of it? An uncompetitive economy brought on by the requirement to service interest on massive mortgages used to pay for house swaps with other people. Massive social and economic problems. An overvalued currency. No productivity reform for the last decade.

Worst of all, Liberals established the welfare culture by giving people stupid baby bonuses for bringing ever more people into an overpopulated world and lots of other welfare handouts for the overly wealthy, opened the immigration floodgates to prop up the housing bubble further without any more land or infrastructure being available and oversaw the period of time in Australian history with the highest net immigration ever - *ever*.


What major infrastructure projects do they have to show for themselves? None.


Now look where the Liberals are....the guy in charge is without any policy substance, and has a massive multi-million dollar mortgage. Do I want these parasites who stole countless hundreds of billions of dollars from Aussies back in power?

No thanks.


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## Garpal Gumnut (26 February 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> So in other words, instead of having one set of vested interests (unions supporting workers), they have another set of vested interests (private businesses loyal to shareholders). That sounds just great.




You don't get it.

Unions do not represent Australian workers. They represent the Union and the ALP in that order.

gg


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## sptrawler (26 February 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Tony Abbott ‏ @TonyAbbottMHR Close
> @wilsonb8 Let's not drag GG into it. The indeps gave us this govt. Now they should get rid of it
> 
> Tony Abbott is reading ASF.
> ...




There has been a couple of things Tony has said that I read earlier on ASF. So you may be right GG.


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## dutchie (26 February 2012)

When the Lib/Nat coalition comes into power they will need to drop the over generous
Paid Parental Leave scheme.


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## Logique (26 February 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> You don't get it.
> Unions do not represent Australian workers. They represent the Union and the ALP in that order.
> gg



Correct. Also, union membership is in trouble. Of all Australian workers it was 18% membership and falling, in 2009. On hearsay, it's down to around 13% in 2012.


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## Starcraftmazter (26 February 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> You don't get it.
> 
> Unions do not represent Australian workers. They represent the Union and the ALP in that order.
> 
> gg




So you do not disagree that LNP is equally worthless in terms of only playing to vested interests.


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## tigerboi (26 February 2012)

yes fit alright,i voted for labor for one reason. work choices what a mistake.
blow my head off before i ever vote for those mongrels again.

by the way this isnt the labor party of the worker...theyre the dregs of the middle class.

they are not qualified to run this country which has been demonstrated many times..

re: how is a rock singer qualified to be the education minister?

thinking about running for the job of transport minister...


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## Knobby22 (26 February 2012)

My answer to the question is I hope so as they will be soon.

I don't like the front bench much though.

Unfortunately the best people in the last government Howard, Costello, Vanstone for instance have gone and the leftovers seem to have not shared the new positions with new talent.

I am not too impressed with Abbott, Bishop, Minchin and Pyne.
I'm sure their is talent in their ranks however and maybe Abbott will grow to be a good Prime Minister or someone will knock him off before the election. 

I don't think I am alone in thinking this as the dreadful polling of Abbott shows.


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## Julia (26 February 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> Unfortunately the best people in the last government Howard, Costello, Vanstone for instance have gone and the leftovers seem to have not shared the new positions with new talent.



Agree that the current bunch are less than impressive.



> I am not too impressed with Abbott, Bishop, Minchin and Pyne.



Nick Minchin retired a few months ago.  He was one of their greatest assets imo and they wasted him.


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## Eager (28 February 2012)

I guess the Noalition _might_ be fit to govern, but it would help their cause a great deal if they stopped focussing on Labor.


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## sails (28 February 2012)

Eager said:


> I guess the Noalition _might_ be fit to govern, but it would help their cause a great deal if they stopped focussing on Labor.





Oh that's so funny...

If labor stop drawing so much attention to themselves by staggering from one disaster to the next, let alone the verbal cannibalisation of each other on national TV for all to see, perhaps there could be something else to focus on.

And it's too early yet for the libs to bring out their policies for labor to copy cat.

At this stage, the clear circus act is labor and you really can't blame the libs for simply agreeing with the majority of voters that this country is being run by incompetent clowns who love their own power more than what might be good for the country.

What else do you want the libs to talk about?  Of course, you are hoping labor can fly under the radar with all their disasters, but that is absolutely delusional.


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## Eager (28 February 2012)

sails said:


> And it's too early yet for the libs to bring out their policies.



OK, I take that on face value. 

When should we expect coalition policies to begin being released? I'm talking real policies, not the already mentioned dismantling ones. Surely it would be better for the coalition, if they have a big-ticket item to call their own, to get the publc to warm to it sooner rather than later?


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## sails (28 February 2012)

Eager said:


> OK, I take that on face value.
> 
> When should we expect coalition policies to begin being released? I'm talking real policies, not the already mentioned dismantling ones. Surely it would be better for the coalition, if they have a big-ticket item to call their own, to get the publc to warm to it sooner rather than later?




Usually when an election is announced...

Surely you knew that?...lol


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## moXJO (28 February 2012)

Eager said:


> OK, I take that on face value.
> 
> When should we expect coalition policies to begin being released? I'm talking real policies, not the already mentioned dismantling ones. Surely it would be better for the coalition, if they have a big-ticket item to call their own, to get the publc to warm to it sooner rather than later?



 No its too soon and labor will simply 'me too' it. Did we forget the 2007 election with Rudds "me too" policy


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## Eager (28 February 2012)

sails said:


> Usually when an election is announced...
> 
> Surely you knew that?...lol



Smartarse. 

Since you couldn't give a genuine reply, I can only assume that the coalition are totally devoid of an inspirational, nation building, imagination capturing, vote attracting big ticket policy item - the type that does need to be put out there well in advance. Assuming they win the next election, it looks like they will be the same old do-nothing party. Just like the Howard era, when after 11 years of rule, it was still 1996.


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## Julia (28 February 2012)

Eager said:


> Smartarse.



Eager there's nothing 'smart' about that reply.  Opposition policies are never usually made clear in any detail until an election is called.


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## wayneL (28 February 2012)

Eager said:


> Smartarse.
> 
> Since you couldn't give a genuine reply, I can only assume that the coalition are totally devoid of an inspirational, nation building, imagination capturing, vote attracting big ticket policy item - the type that does need to be put out there well in advance. Assuming they win the next election, it looks like they will be the same old do-nothing party. Just like the Howard era, when after 11 years of rule, it was still 1996.




I don't like big policy changes or "big ideas" just for the sake of big ideas. 

Sometimes steady as she goes is the best policy.

Of course winding back the damage might just be first priority.

Big ideas = more laws, bigger gu'mint, more tax, more waste, less liberty etc.

I just want gu'mint to butt the ^$%$^ out!


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## sptrawler (28 February 2012)

Eager said:


> Smartarse.
> 
> Since you couldn't give a genuine reply, I can only assume that the coalition are totally devoid of an inspirational, nation building, imagination capturing, vote attracting big ticket policy item - the type that does need to be put out there well in advance. Assuming they win the next election, it looks like they will be the same old do-nothing party. Just like the Howard era, when after 11 years of rule, it was still 1996.




Actualy Eager, for once you are probably right. Howard, Cosello spent most of their time in office paying down labor debt.
The coalition will no doubt be paying down the debt these goons are running up.
It's o.k to have inspirational ideas, nation building plans, imagination capturing expenditure.
Would that be like Ireland the 'Tiger economy of Europe' 6 years ago.LOL
Europe is littered with Governments who spent with gusto, yes Greece, Italy, Spain.

It is all a bit like running your home budget, you can impress the neighbours and kids with your inspirational spending and big noteing yourself. It really only impresses the financially illiterate, eventually someone has to pay for it.
That's the boring bit that labor seem to have trouble coming to terms with, much more fun spending.
Have some pink batts, go get yourself a plasma, here is a pot of money scammers come get it, we've got lots off money were labor.LOL,LOL
OMG what have we done? Yep that's inspirational, jeez give me a break, how stupid do you think the electorate is?
If labor agreed with your thoughts they would jump at an election to roll out their legacy. LOOL,LOL What BS


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## wayneL (28 February 2012)

sptrawler said:


> It is all a bit like running your home budget, you can impress the neighbours and kids with your inspirational spending and big noteing yourself. It really only impresses the financially illiterate, eventually someone has to pay for it.
> That's the boring bit that labor seem to have trouble coming to terms with, much more fun spending.




What a great analogy... so true.

Mind you, Johnny and Pete were splashing the cash about a bit at the end there.


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## sptrawler (28 February 2012)

wayneL said:


> What a great analogy... so true.
> 
> Mind you, Johnny and Pete were splashing the cash about a bit at the end there.




Yes I remember Costello saying " We are in surplus, the budget is robust, therefore we are taking too much tax at this point in time". 
Then they reduced marginal rates, oh what fond memories.


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## Starcraftmazter (28 February 2012)

Honestly, NBN is the only production enabling infrastructure that has been committed to and built (partially built as of now unfortunately) by any government in many decades.

Any government which does not fully support it is not fit to govern a city council.

What is the LNP's vision of Australia's economic future? What do they plan to build to better enable us to produce and export products and services? Nada - that's what.


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## sptrawler (28 February 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> What is the LNP's vision of Australia's economic future? What do they plan to build to better enable us to produce and export products and services? Nada - that's what.




Well Ports and Railway lines spring to mind. 
I think the N.B.N thread has covered the issue that Oakeshott asked Conroy to provide details of new jobs the N.B.N would create.
We are still waiting for his answer.


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## drsmith (28 February 2012)

Eager said:


> Since you couldn't give a genuine reply, I can only assume that the coalition are totally devoid of an inspirational, nation building, imagination capturing, vote attracting big ticket policy item - the type that does need to be put out there well in advance. Assuming they win the next election, it looks like they will be the same old do-nothing party. Just like the Howard era, when after 11 years of rule, it was still 1996.



After 11 years of Coalition rule, we got substantial income tax cuts.

Under Labor's first term, we got more Coalition income tax cuts.

What have we had under Labor proper ?

Tax increases.

Labor will be slaughtered at the next election because the majority of voters don't trust this Labor government.

There will be no hope for the Government Julia Gillard leads and that is a promise the electorate will keep.


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## moXJO (29 February 2012)

Eager said:


> Assuming they win the next election, it looks like they will be the same old do-nothing party. Just like the Howard era, when after 11 years of rule, it was still 1996.




No they take care of things like IR reform, small business policy, productivity, not 'look at me' policies that waste a lot of money on grandstanding. Those little things help drive the country forward and carry business confidence. Labor has turned it back 20 years and it's now a warzone. Oh but stuff like that is to boring to be considered by labor voters


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## Starcraftmazter (29 February 2012)

sptrawler said:


> Well Ports and Railway lines spring to mind.




Ports and railways have been built for centuries - they are nothing new and nothing innovative. They also do not create long term jobs nor support real industries.

The only thing they will achieve is allow companies to steal more of our national treasures and haul them off to China. Using machinery and not even labour. How does that help our economy? It doesn't.




sptrawler said:


> I think the N.B.N thread has covered the issue that Oakeshott asked Conroy to provide details of new jobs the N.B.N would create.
> We are still waiting for his answer.




That's because it's a retarded question.

How many jobs has the PC created? How many jobs has the Internet created? These are all questions without any precise answer, though without a doubt it is "a hell of a lot".



drsmith said:


> After 11 years of Coalition rule, we got substantial income tax cuts.
> 
> Under Labor's first term, we got more Coalition income tax cuts.
> 
> ...




That has nothing to do with any party being in power and everything to do with the mining boom. Sheesh.



drsmith said:


> Labor will be slaughtered at the next election because the majority of voters don't trust this Labor government.
> 
> There will be no hope for the Government Julia Gillard leads and that is a promise the electorate will keep.




Anyone who trusts any government should probably be stripped of the power to vote.


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## sptrawler (29 February 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> How many jobs has the PC created? How many jobs has the Internet created? These are all questions without any precise answer, though without a doubt it is "a hell of a lot".




The other question is ,how many jobs have the above destroyed, without doubt more than they have created, otherwise the technology wouldn't be adopted in industry. Most industries have introduced technology to replace human activity.
The N.B.N may in fact destroy more jobs than it creates.

Rio Tinto, driverless trucks, driverless trains, driverless underground boggers. 
I am not saying technology shouldn't be adopted. However to say the net benefit is more jobs or even new jobs is deceptive and probably erroneous.
The jobs listed above will be replaced by g.p.s control systems, that will be produced overseas. The computer central control system will be made overseas, the 1000 or so jobs will be replaced by a dozen or so control room staff and a couple of service technicians.
Like I said I agree technology implentation is unavoidable. However to roll out the garbage that there will be an increase in jobs or a net benefit to anyone other than shareholders and an I.T company, is a flawed argument.


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## Starcraftmazter (29 February 2012)

sptrawler said:


> The other question is ,how many jobs have the above destroyed, without doubt more than they have created, otherwise the technology wouldn't be adopted in industry. Most industries have introduced technology to replace human activity.




I completely disagree. IT is one of the booming sectors of our economy. Not only will the NBN create jobs, but it will drastically boost the productivity of existing businesses.


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## sptrawler (29 February 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I completely disagree. IT is one of the booming sectors of our economy. Not only will the NBN create jobs, but it will drastically boost the productivity of existing businesses.




The IT industry is definately booming and productivity is improving, but we were talking about the 'net effect' on jobs.
Take for example a 1000MW 8 unit thermal coal fired power station, before distributive control sytems they employed approx 800 people.
Retrofit electrically operated devices and a D.C.S the number now 250, that includes the new 10 jobs in the IT section.
The output of the station is the same the fuel costs are the same. Big saving in loss of jobs.


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## Starcraftmazter (29 February 2012)

sptrawler said:


> The IT industry is definately booming and productivity is improving, but we were talking about the 'net effect' on jobs.
> Take for example a 1000MW 8 unit thermal coal fired power station, before distributive control sytems they employed approx 800 people.
> Retrofit electrically operated devices and a D.C.S the number now 250, that includes the new 10 jobs in the IT section.
> The output of the station is the same the fuel costs are the same. Big saving in loss of jobs.




Yes - that's called productivity growth, that's a very good thing. Fewer, higher skilled jobs will be needed in the future to drive the economy. We can bring our population down to 20mill and lower to improve environmental sustainability. Everyone will be far richer. Everyone wins.

The specific example you cite is also not relevant to the NBN.


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## Knobby22 (29 February 2012)

I want the NBN but I agree with SPtrawler.

The IT industry isn't even immune. You can get an Indian to design a website for 1/10the the cost of an Australian firm. Oakton OKN for instance have now set up a division in India. The NBN will speed the process losing Australian IT jobs, increasing volume but lowering margins.


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## Eager (29 February 2012)

Back to my 'big ideas' theme, opposed here by most.

Imagine life in Australia if the Snowy Mountains Scheme was never built. Surely the immense ongoing value of it given over the decades is plain to see? By contrast, is it conservative policy to not have any imagination? Do they consider Australia to be already fully developed?

There are still conservatives out there that harp back to what is regarded as the good ol' days of Menzies, and, more recently, Howard. While nostalgia is cute, such retrograde thinking cannot be allowed to stall the country. 

As a forward looking person, I'm just looking for something that that Libs can offer to inspire me. I won't hold my breath. I guess that is a reason why I don't like Abbott; he is not capable of looking any further than those that sit on the other side of the House to him. He is obviously very comfortable in opposition!


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## drsmith (29 February 2012)

Eager said:


> Imagine life in Australia if the Snowy Mountains Scheme was never built.



If the Greens were around then and had any say, it wouldn't have been built.


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## drsmith (29 February 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> That has nothing to do with any party being in power and everything to do with the mining boom. Sheesh.



We are currently having a mining boom and yet Labor and its partners in government, including the Greens are increasing taxes.



Starcraftmazter said:


> Anyone who trusts any government should probably be stripped of the power to vote.



Interesting that you see trust as a bar too high for our elected representatives.


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## Eager (29 February 2012)

drsmith said:


> If the Green were around then and had any say, it wouldn't have been built.



Possibly. But fergawsake, if the Libs were in power with a healthy majority, who gives a stuff what the Greens think? Why look for excuses as to why major projects can't be initiated? I guess that is how the Libs appease Green voters; by not building anything at all!

(it may surprise most that despite my Left leanings, I am essentially not a fan of the Greens)


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## drsmith (29 February 2012)

Eager said:


> Possibly. But fergawsake, if the Libs were in power with a healthy majority, who gives a stuff what the Greens think?



That's how the majority will see it at the next election.


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## sptrawler (29 February 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Yes - that's called productivity growth, that's a very good thing. Fewer, higher skilled jobs will be needed in the future to drive the economy. We can bring our population down to 20mill and lower to improve environmental sustainability. Everyone will be far richer. Everyone wins.
> 
> The specific example you cite is also not relevant to the NBN.




The problem is our population isn't going down and the fewer higher skilled workers will have to pay more to cover the increased burden on social welfare. Or our living standards will be reduced, I tend to think it will be the latter.

As you say the specific example is not relevant to the N.B.N YET!!!!!
As cloud storage becomes acceptable and more the norm a greater amount of our IT work can be outsourced offshore.
Don't think for one moment IT work won't race to the lowest cost. 
It wasn't long ago nobody trusted internet banking or buying products over the internet. It won't be long before business is offered virtual process systems instead of the capital expense of installing and maintaining their own.

That is why going headlong into debt to install infrastructure that is only required by the business sector, at the expense of infrastructure that will create 'real' jobs is IMO crazy.
Anyway we have been over this issue ad nauseum. Just hope labor hurry up and make the next stuff up to inject a bit of life to the forum.


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## Julia (29 February 2012)

Eager said:


> As a forward looking person, I'm just looking for something that that Libs can offer to inspire me. I won't hold my breath. I guess that is a reason why I don't like Abbott; he is not capable of looking any further than those that sit on the other side of the House to him. He is obviously very comfortable in opposition!



Eager, this is the reason, I think, why Abbott is still not popular amongst many voters.  He seems to have locked himself into an image of an effective opposition leader, but there the image stops.

I understand what you're saying about the 'big picture' thing, but if the Libs are elected their first and most urgent priority will be to unravel much of the nonsense brought about by Labor, not least of which will be dismantling the carbon tax and beginning the daunting task of getting the finances in order after all of Labor's waste.

Imo it's a particularly bad look for the Libs that they still have as policy this very expensive maternity leave scheme which is ridiculously generous, yet will not have the funds to apply to either a disability insurance or dental care scheme.
Totally wrong priority here and Mr Abbott is being pretty dismissive of public opinion if he doesn't make some changes in this respect.


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## moXJO (29 February 2012)

Julia said:


> Imo it's a particularly bad look for the Libs that they still have as policy this very expensive maternity leave scheme which is ridiculously generous, yet will not have the funds to apply to either a disability insurance or dental care scheme.
> Totally wrong priority here and Mr Abbott is being pretty dismissive of public opinion if he doesn't make some changes in this respect.




I agree, I would find it hard to vote for Abbott while the maternity leave scheme is there.


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## IFocus (29 February 2012)

drsmith said:


> After 11 years of Coalition rule, we got substantial income tax cuts.





Extraordinary from he who understands tax what you got from Howard / Costello was a structure budget black hole...................


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## IFocus (29 February 2012)

Eager said:


> As a forward looking person, I'm just looking for something that that Libs can offer to inspire me. I won't hold my breath. I guess that is a reason why I don't like Abbott; he is not capable of looking any further than those that sit on the other side of the House to him. He is obviously very comfortable in opposition!





Abbott is an effective tagger on a politically inept Labor party nothing more.

He and his front bench has shown they blow up when the blow torch goes on.

If Gillard can run the political conversation for a change then the pressure will go onto Abbott which historically he has not handled (politically).

Basically Abbott is looking at a drovers dog election and its his to lose.

Given Gillard has toughed out what would have to be one of the most difficult periods any political leader has come thought for some time I am starting to think Labor might get back into the game.

Still think Abbott will fall over the line by default rather than talent.


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 February 2012)

IFocus said:


> Abbott is an effective tagger on a politically inept Labor party nothing more.
> 
> He and his front bench has shown they blow up when the blow torch goes on.
> 
> ...




Tony will be one of our better PM's and will probably beat Howard's tenure if not Menzies.

He has a brain, and an understanding of people which the present incumbent and her predecessor do not possess.

gg


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## explod (29 February 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Tony will be one of our better PM's and will probably beat Howard's tenure if not Menzies.
> 
> He has a brain, and an understanding of people which the present incumbent and her predecessor do not possess.
> 
> gg




Yeah,     and a here here GG,

he fidgets, stutters and stammers on the cur ley's and looks slyly to the side as if for a place to run when cornered.

Great posture too, usually hunched and almost sort of cowering at times.

A great image for the lost Liberal Party in fact.


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## Knobby22 (29 February 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Tony will be one of our better PM's and will probably beat Howard's tenure if not Menzies.
> 
> He has a brain, and an understanding of people which the present incumbent and her predecessor do not possess.
> 
> gg




I actually almost agree except why does he always talk to the lowest common denominator. If he wants to appear Prime Ministerial then he stop talking to the public like we are all a bit dumb and trying a con on us and start treating us like we are intelligent too.  I know he is smart and he was a pretty good minister so I would like to see him argue a case intelligently rather than talk in a spin doctorish way like today with faceless men. Really explain where he is coming from. Whoever his advisors are they should learn from Labor, that spinning pisses people off.


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## tigerboi (29 February 2012)

IFocus said:


> I am starting to think Labor might get back into the game.




labor is done! stick a fork in them now

the public are not fools FACT: gillard is a liar & cannot be trusted.simple as.public dont trust her since she pulled a dog act carbon tax.

dont forget as well the public already decided they didnt want her last election by ripping down about  a 17 seat majority.

the public spoke then & tried to vote her out,next time they are going to absolutely trash labour...verdict: labor will lose 25 seats...tb 



http://wyndham-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/informal-votes-high-in-gillards-own-seat/


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## drsmith (29 February 2012)

IFocus said:


> Extraordinary from he who understands tax what you got from Howard / Costello was a structure budget black hole...................



If that's the case, Labor didn't seem to mind with its mee too approach to gaining office in 2007.


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## moXJO (1 March 2012)

IFocus said:


> Given Gillard has toughed out what would have to be one of the most difficult periods any political leader has come thought for some time I am starting to think Labor might get back into the game.
> 
> Still think Abbott will fall over the line by default rather than talent.




Lol creating your own mess then having to tough it out doesn't really qualify for bonus points. 
Now the solar hot water rebate has been dropped and mates have been caught after setting up there business for the green economy. Yep same old same old chalk up another industry that’s been blown up by labor.


Agree with the Abbott comment.


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## joea (1 March 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> I actually almost agree except why does he always talk to the lowest common denominator. If he wants to appear Prime Ministerial then he stop talking to the public like we are all a bit dumb and trying a con on us and start treating us like we are intelligent too.  I know he is smart and he was a pretty good minister so I would like to see him argue a case intelligently rather than talk in a spin doctorish way like today with faceless men. Really explain where he is coming from. Whoever his advisors are they should learn from Labor, that spinning pisses people off.




Knobby
Peta Credlin is one of his advisers. "The Boss".
he continues to refer to the faceless men because he is pointing out that Gillard is not making the decisions.
Gillard is making the "impulsive lies".

An example is attached.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ther-failed-test/story-e6frg75f-1226285544391

I would have thought that Gillard would have had her reshuffle organised before the ballot.
But Arbid has apparently thrown a spanner into the works. 

I reckon a lot of Labor Federal MP'S and faceless men are going to be hiding "behind the doors", on the 25th of March.
Labor was attempting to bring "stability" to Federal politics(after the ballot) to help them in the Qld state election.
The points Tony is making is... Gillard is a "serial liar", there will be no change.
The faceless men run Federal Labor.... there will be no change.
joea


----------



## Calliope (1 March 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> Whoever his advisors are they should learn from Labor, that spinning pisses people off.




The first thing I would advise him is to stop saying "look, look" and appearing flustered every time he is asked an awkward question.

If he doesn't like the question, he should take a lesson from Gillard and ignore the question and make a speech about "getting on with the job."


----------



## Starcraftmazter (1 March 2012)

Knobby22 said:


> I want the NBN but I agree with SPtrawler.
> 
> The IT industry isn't even immune. You can get an Indian to design a website for 1/10the the cost of an Australian firm. Oakton OKN for instance have now set up a division in India. The NBN will speed the process losing Australian IT jobs, increasing volume but lowering margins.




Website design is hardly a high-skill job. I am talking about engineering here...



drsmith said:


> We are currently having a mining boom and yet Labor and its partners in government, including the Greens are increasing taxes.




Actually no we are not. Not a boom in employment, not a boom in income, not a boom in anything. This "mining boom" has not delivered anything that the last one did. Even the RBA has completely backtracked on everything they said last year about how this mining boom was going to be big and cause lots of inflation and we all better make way for it 

Complete nonsense. And it looks to me like you pay zero attention.



drsmith said:


> Interesting that you see trust as a bar too high for our elected representatives.




The bar is not high, they are just too fat to leap over it.



sptrawler said:


> The problem is our population isn't going down and the fewer higher skilled workers will have to pay more to cover the increased burden on social welfare. Or our living standards will be reduced, I tend to think it will be the latter.




Yes, it is very bad - that's why I always say it's important to put a stop on immigration and institute a one child policy similar to China, as well as sending retirees to overseas asian aged care facilities if they cannot support themselves - as welfare money will run much further there.



sptrawler said:


> As cloud storage becomes acceptable and more the norm a greater amount of our IT work can be outsourced offshore.
> Don't think for one moment IT work won't race to the lowest cost.
> It wasn't long ago nobody trusted internet banking or buying products over the internet. It won't be long before business is offered virtual process systems instead of the capital expense of installing and maintaining their own.




I work in IT, and I have this to say;
1. "Cloud" technologies are nonsense, and they have no effect on outsourcing.
2. Outsourcing has been done for a long time, with very bad results.

In my experience and in my discussions with colleagues, every single project that gets outsourced to India ends up a disastrous mess and costs massive amounts of money. I would say there is currently a trend of reverse outsourcing as companies realise there is absolutely no substitute to having engineers (and I am talking about the high-skill high-pay jobs, not call centres) locally, as overall the costs are simply much higher to have them overseas.

I know of several cases where outsourcing (software and other IT) engineering work to India has led to losses of hundreds of millions specifically because they could not do what local engineers can. By the true force of the free market, those companies that outsource heavily will die, and those who employ locally will thrive. This is exactly what has happened to IBM which massively outsourced to India, and is now a shell of it's former self, losing countless business contracts to local companies.



sptrawler said:


> That is why going headlong into debt to install infrastructure that is only required by the business sector, at the expense of infrastructure that will create 'real' jobs is IMO crazy.




What infrastructure that will create "real jobs" do you propose? And the NBN WILL create jobs and support current businesses - I guarantee it. I work at a business that will benefit tremendously from the NBN, and I know there are many others like it. This business is not sending jobs to India, it is expanding and hiring more engineers in Australia. The best part is, we export our products to countries like India.

I appreciate you having opinions on this issue, but take it from someone who actually works in the industry and knows better than you, what effect it will have.


----------



## Eager (1 March 2012)

Julia said:


> Imo it's a particularly bad look for the Libs that they still have as policy this very expensive maternity leave scheme which is ridiculously generous, yet will not have the funds to apply to either a disability insurance or dental care scheme.
> Totally wrong priority here and Mr Abbott is being pretty dismissive of public opinion if he doesn't make some changes in this respect.



I think this 'me too' policy from Abbott is a simplistic, defensive ploy to retain the female vote.


----------



## wayneL (1 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I appreciate you having opinions on this issue, but take it from someone who actually works in the industry and knows better than you, what effect it will have.




How long have you been working in the industry?


----------



## IFocus (1 March 2012)

tigerboi said:


> dont forget as well the public already decided they didnt want her last election by ripping down about  a 17 seat majority.




If by all accounts Rudd hadn't leaked Labor would have had a majority government in hind sight it was a weak Abbott that failed to get into government and Labor (Rudd) did every thing possible to help.  

You would have to think Abbott fluffed the last election.



> the public spoke then & tried to vote her out,next time they are going to absolutely trash Labor...verdict: labor will lose 25 seats...tb




If Gillard fails to run the political conversation then Labor will be trashed no doubt.


----------



## wayneL (1 March 2012)

IFocus said:


> If by all accounts Rudd hadn't leaked Labor would have had a majority government in hind sight it was a weak Abbott that failed to get into government and Labor (Rudd) did every thing possible to help.
> 
> You would have to think Abbott fluffed the last election.




Nice piece of spin there IF. Do you do this for a living? :


----------



## JTLP (1 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Website design is hardly a high-skill job. I am talking about engineering here...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually no we are not. Not a boom in employment, not a boom in income, not a boom in anything. This "mining boom" has not delivered anything that the last one did. Even the RBA has completely backtracked on everything they said last year about how this mining boom was going to be big and cause lots of inflation and we all better make way for it




Mate you're either saying a lot of this stuff to get a rise or you have 2 left arms. We actually had very low employment rates according to the ABS figures but the uncertainity surrounding the Carbon Tax has managed to push a few people into unemployment territory. You'll retort with "companies have said it has no affect" but they'd probably get censured for saying it does so better to say "strategic review".

Mining has also delivered higher wages and income for the government - they've just blown it faster than it comes in.



Starcraftmazter said:


> The bar is not high, they are just too fat to leap over it.



The perks of politicans makes the job highly attractive to public service centred people who enjoy living off other peoples money. DrSmith has you on that one.




Starcraftmazter said:


> Yes, it is very bad - that's why I always say it's important to put a stop on immigration and institute a one child policy similar to China, as well as sending retirees to overseas asian aged care facilities if they cannot support themselves - as welfare money will run much further there.



Ummm ok? Although we have the Socialist Greens in power - a 1 child policy for a country with 22 million people and all that space isn't exactly the greatest one? And sending retirees overseas to Asia? LOL they built the land we are standing on today and after all their hard work you want to ship them off because you think they're a burden? 



Starcraftmazter said:


> I work in IT, and I have this to say;
> 1. "Cloud" technologies are nonsense, and they have no effect on outsourcing.
> 2. Outsourcing has been done for a long time, with very bad results.
> 
> In my experience and in my discussions with colleagues, every single project that gets outsourced to India ends up a disastrous mess and costs massive amounts of money. I would say there is currently a trend of reverse outsourcing as companies realise there is absolutely no substitute to having engineers (and I am talking about the high-skill high-pay jobs, not call centres) locally, as overall the costs are simply much higher to have them overseas.



You sound quite young (I am also quite young) and I think you will see that A LOT of outsourcing gets done with efficient results. Every single project is a dud? There may be a language barrier but skill is not - they'd be pretty much nailing outsourcing now to very good effect



Starcraftmazter said:


> What infrastructure that will create "real jobs" do you propose? And the NBN WILL create jobs and support current businesses - I guarantee it. I work at a business that will benefit tremendously from the NBN, and I know there are many others like it. This business is not sending jobs to India, it is expanding and hiring more engineers in Australia. The best part is, we export our products to countries like India.



Guarantee it? Any infrastructure project will create jobs - it's the longevity of the jobs once the project has finished that matters. Good to hear that you work in a business that will benefit greatly - probably why you are so pro NBN. I'm sure equally there are businesses and PEOPLE who do not want to blow $42B on speedier internet when more pressing matters are required?

How about fixing the state of the roads in capital cities and creating infrastructure that can support the growth? Or Metro's like in Europe for Melbourne and Sydney? How about funding for hospitals to lower the wait time in Public (which will only increase now). I can think of A LOT better uses for the $$$ than the NBN.



Starcraftmazter said:


> I appreciate you having opinions on this issue, but take it from someone who actually works in the industry and knows better than you, what effect it will have.




You sound a bit full of it here - "I can make out the words but don't want to hear you". People have very valid opinions - you may discover you're not always SPOT on the $$$.


----------



## Julia (1 March 2012)

JTLP said:


> Ummm ok? Although we have the Socialist Greens in power - a 1 child policy for a country with 22 million people and all that space isn't exactly the greatest one? And sending retirees overseas to Asia? LOL they built the land we are standing on today and after all their hard work you want to ship them off because you think they're a burden?



Star's comment here really is not deserving of any answer, JTLP.

Re the NBN creating new jobs, probably right.  Largely in the bureaucracy required to administer it.
A bit like Queensland Health (and probably other State health departments) where there are two third of the employees who are bureaucrats to one third actually delivering health care.
Fantastic!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (1 March 2012)

Basically we need workers back in government.

Sparkies, Engineers, Restaurant Owners, Storemen, Self employed people, as an example.

The ALP only offer Faceless Union and Organisational Representatives of the non-working class. 

If you do not vote LIB/CP you will have these apartchiks in power for another generation.

gg


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> What infrastructure that will create "real jobs" do you propose? And the NBN WILL create jobs and support current businesses - I guarantee it. I work at a business that will benefit tremendously from the NBN, and I know there are many others like it. This business is not sending jobs to India, it is expanding and hiring more engineers in Australia. The best part is, we export our products to countries like India.
> 
> I appreciate you having opinions on this issue, but take it from someone who actually works in the industry and knows better than you, what effect it will have.




Well I suppose I am talking about infrastructure that is required to support the rapid removal of our raw materials. Port facilities, better services in these country towns that are servicing this ridiculous fly in fly out mentality. 
The public transport system throughout Australia requires upgrading, it took over 100years to finish the Adelaide to Darwin rail line. These sort of jobs will be required to employ people layed off in manufacturing and retail. Not everyone can work in IT.

Unlike you, I don't see the output of our education system taking us to a world leading IT position.
If anything, from what I read, our educational standards are in decline and the sytem is in crisis. So maybe you work in an intellectual workplace buble, but a lot more live outside your IT bubble. They need jobs so they can pay taxes also.


----------



## Starcraftmazter (2 March 2012)

wayneL said:


> How long have you been working in the industry?




What relevance is that? I am talking about the situation at the present time, not at any point in time in history.




JTLP said:


> We actually had very low employment rates according to the ABS figures but the uncertainity surrounding the Carbon Tax has managed to push a few people into unemployment territory. You'll retort with "companies have said it has no affect" but they'd probably get censured for saying it does so better to say "strategic review".




Do you mean the IT industry? Don't forget the recession/depression Australia is entering when considering any job losses, do not blame outsourcing.



JTLP said:


> Ummm ok? Although we have the Socialist Greens in power - a 1 child policy for a country with 22 million people and all that space isn't exactly the greatest one?




It's nothing to do with socialism or any other type of government. The reality is, the planet is dangerously overpopulated. The natural resources we have available to us in Australia, we want to make sure last us for hundreds and hundreds of years. That is impossible unless we bring our population down and keep it there.

Most of Australia is desert and a lot of mountains - neither very good for building cities on. There is very very little flat coastal terrain for cities, and we shouldn't push it.



JTLP said:


> And sending retirees overseas to Asia? LOL they built the land we are standing on today and after all their hard work you want to ship them off because you think they're a burden?




They are a burden - that is a fact. In the next 40 years our dependency ratio will drop significantly, and something will have to be done. Sending them to Asia benefits them just as well as the rest of the country, because they will get a much better life there - one that the country cannot afford to give them back home.



JTLP said:


> You sound quite young (I am also quite young) and I think you will see that A LOT of outsourcing gets done with efficient results. Every single project is a dud? There may be a language barrier but skill is not - they'd be pretty much nailing outsourcing now to very good effect




In other industries maybe, in IT, the people designing something must be very close to the customer, otherwise it just won't work.



JTLP said:


> I'm sure equally there are businesses and PEOPLE who do not want to blow $42B on speedier internet when more pressing matters are required?






JTLP said:


> How about fixing the state of the roads in capital cities and creating infrastructure that can support the growth? Or Metro's like in Europe for Melbourne and Sydney? How about funding for hospitals to lower the wait time in Public (which will only increase now). I can think of A LOT better uses for the $$$ than the NBN.




State and local governments have the job of fronting the money for localised infrastructure - not federal. And yes they do a piss poor job - but one of the problems is the lack of planning that went into building our capitals. There is not exactly a lot of spare room for infrastructure.

Throwing money at the problem of healthcare and wait times will not fix it. We need to get rid of the parasitic public healthcare scheme - that will lower wait times.




Garpal Gumnut said:


> Basically we need workers back in government.
> 
> Sparkies, Engineers, Restaurant Owners, Storemen, Self employed people, as an example.
> 
> ...




One set of vested interests for another. LNP members are not sparkies, engineers, restaurant owners, storemen nor self employed people. They are lawyers, and they represent only what is worst in the world.



sptrawler said:


> Well I suppose I am talking about infrastructure that is required to support the rapid removal of our raw materials. Port facilities, better services in these country towns that are servicing this ridiculous fly in fly out mentality.
> The public transport system throughout Australia requires upgrading, it took over 100years to finish the Adelaide to Darwin rail line. These sort of jobs will be required to employ people layed off in manufacturing and retail. Not everyone can work in IT.




I agree on both counts. However given that Australia has had the worst internet in the developed world since internet was invented, and given that IT is a growth industry - especially in developed countries, I think it is well worth the investment.

I know not everyone can work in IT, but the NBN will support all people and all industries. The healthcare industry which is also going to experience a lot of growth (due to demographics) is going to get immense productivity boosts from the NBN.



sptrawler said:


> Unlike you, I don't see the output of our education system taking us to a world leading IT position.
> If anything, from what I read, our educational standards are in decline and the sytem is in crisis. So maybe you work in an intellectual workplace buble, but a lot more live outside your IT bubble. They need jobs so they can pay taxes also.




Given the increasing automation and mechanisation of no skill jobs, the only future Australia has as I see it, is as a very highly skilled country where most workers are engineers, scientists, doctors, etc. We must lower the proportion of unskilled and low skilled labour. Not everyone has to go in IT and I never said they do, but we must move away from low skill jobs, otherwise we will suffer greatly as an economy.


----------



## Calliope (2 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> They are a burden - that is a fact. In the next 40 years our dependency ratio will drop significantly, and something will have to be done. Sending them to Asia benefits them just as well as the rest of the country, because they will get a much better life there - one that the country cannot afford to give them back home.




What a brilliant idea. But why stop at old people? Why not send all people who are a burden on the taxpayer to Asia. We could empty our public hospitals, our jails, our schools for the disadvantaged, our detention centres, our refuges for the homeless  and get rid of dole bludgers and solve the aboriginal problem.


----------



## wayneL (2 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> What relevance is that? I am talking about the situation at the present time, not at any point in time in history.




Can't you just answer a direct question? I want to know for my own information.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> One set of vested interests for another. LNP members are not sparkies, engineers, restaurant owners, storemen nor self employed people. They are lawyers, and they represent only what is worst in the world.




Mate I don't know what planet you live on , but you are deluded.
Count the occupations of politicians in Canberra.
Check your local Lib or Nat branch and compare to the ALP branch
I have in my own family the following breakdown
Lib/Nat 50%
ALP 16%
Couldn't give a monkies 33%
You must live in some basket weaving area like Balmain to have such a skewed view of society.
There are more lawyers in the ALP than at a motor accident in George St. in Brisbane.

gg


----------



## Starcraftmazter (3 March 2012)

Calliope said:


> What a brilliant idea. But why stop at old people? Why not send all people who are a burden on the taxpayer to Asia. We could empty our public hospitals, our jails, our schools for the disadvantaged, our detention centres, our refuges for the homeless  and get rid of dole bludgers and solve the aboriginal problem.




I would agree with most of that, especially incarcerated and dole bludgers. But overall it can only be enforced if public money is involved - so it can't be applied to everything.



wayneL said:


> Can't you just answer a direct question? I want to know for my own information.




I can. Doesn't mean I have to.



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Check your local Lib or Nat branch and compare to the ALP branch




Same ****, different assholes.



Garpal Gumnut said:


> There are more lawyers in the ALP than at a motor accident in George St. in Brisbane.gg




Pretty much all politicians are lawyers - there's no difference between ALP and LNP in this regard.

If you look at the key LNP figures, Hockey, Bishop, etc - all are lawyers. Abbott is the worse as he is basically a News Ltd lapdog. Explains why his views are so retarded and extreme. What a joke.


----------



## wayneL (3 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I can. Doesn't mean I have to.




So in other words, not very long, less than a year is my guess.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (3 March 2012)

John Howards battlers and Nat farmers will stick with the Lib/Nats, while the ALP have the Green collar of doom around their necks.

And Lib/Nat workers and small self employed folk are better fit to govern, rather than crusties who only see the bad in the Australian way of life through an ALP prism.

gg


----------



## Eager (3 March 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> John Howards battlers and Nat farmers will stick with the Lib/Nats, while the ALP have the Green collar of doom around their necks.
> 
> And Lib/Nat workers and small self employed folk are better fit to govern, rather than crusties who only see the bad in the Australian way of life through an ALP prism.
> 
> gg



In my opinion it is always the coalition voting small self employed folk that rip the country off blind. How silly of the ALP to trust them to self-manage the pink batts scheme! 

Speaking of crusties, it seems that the great majority of the membership here focus solely on the bad in the Australian way of life.


----------



## Miss Hale (3 March 2012)

Eager said:


> In my opinion it is always the coalition voting small self employed folk that rip the country off blind. How silly of the ALP to trust them to self-manage the pink batts scheme!




Shows how poorly the scheme was set up if it was able to be rorted so easily. Like the set top box debacle, the BER, cash for clunkers... the list goes on. Governments of any persuasion are not good at these sort of schemes, bureaucracy alone makes them more expensive than they ought to be, let alone the additional cost of any rorting.


----------



## IFocus (3 March 2012)

Eager said:


> In my opinion it is always the coalition voting small self employed folk that rip the country off blind. How silly of the ALP to trust them to self-manage the pink batts scheme!





Ouch thats a wooden stake through the corrupt right wing, I see NSW LNP are under way running the big money all ready.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2012)

Eager said:


> In my opinion it is always the coalition voting small self employed folk that rip the country off blind. How silly of the ALP to trust them to self-manage the pink batts scheme!
> 
> Speaking of crusties, it seems that the great majority of the membership here focus solely on the bad in the Australian way of life.




I think you would get the shock of your life if you looked into the managing directors of the insulation and solar instalation companies.I know in W.A when the proverbial hit the fan the people mentioned in the papers were not from the right of politics.
I am sure IFocus would have read some of the names.

As for focusing on bad in the 'Australian way of life' christ knows where you are coming from with that statement. What is the connection between bad government and Australian way of life, other than a bad government will lead to worse living standard?


----------



## moXJO (3 March 2012)

Eager said:


> In my opinion it is always the coalition voting small self employed folk that rip the country off blind. How silly of the ALP to trust them to self-manage the pink batts scheme!
> 
> .




What an absolute dumb$hit thing to say, really outdone yourself this time. 
My mate that was on the electrician board went down to Canberra with a full report over the dangers of the pink batts scheme which was ignored. Garret was told from multiple sources that it would end badly, but oh no 
Something akin to standing on a street corner and throwing money at people is not a well run scheme. How about the greens loan mess there's another really well run scheme that wasted millions on a department that you couldn't even get a loan from while it was up and running

Labors complete lack of any type of control or structure to the batts scheme is what ended up in the mess it became. Every fly by nighter had their hand in the till and on top of that Labor then destroyed thousands of honest Insulation installer around the country in a matter of months. It was the worst run scheme I have ever seen. And we see that same destruction in the solar hot water scheme falling on its rear and taking out guys that set up for the green economy. 
The small self-employed in this country always get a head kicking every time labor is in power.
You want to see corrupt then take a walk down to your local labor supporting union. Or even some of the local state labor members. Want to see wasted money, take a look at the vast majority of labor policies.


----------



## Eager (3 March 2012)

sptrawler said:


> As for focusing on bad in the 'Australian way of life' christ knows where you are coming from with that statement. What is the connection between bad government and Australian way of life, other than a bad government will lead to worse living standard?



it was a direct response to Garpal's post. I was merely pointing out that the majority of the membership here do nothing but complain about how bad they perceive things to be.


----------



## Eager (3 March 2012)

moXJO said:


> What an absolute dumb$hit thing to say, really outdone yourself this time.
> My mate that was on the electrician board went down to Canberra with a full report over the dangers of the pink batts scheme which was ignored. Garret was told from multiple sources that it would end badly, but oh no
> Something akin to standing on a street corner and throwing money at people is not a well run scheme. How about the greens loan mess there's another really well run scheme that wasted millions on a department that you couldn't even get a loan from while it was up and running
> 
> ...



All you have done is confirm my beliefs; the gov't was wrong to trust the small business sector. As punishment it ended up costing Garrett, but because of his misplaced trust, that was probably fair enough. 

The small self employed in this country always seek gov't handouts. Maybe they should be focussing on their business models instead? They do not always get a head kicking from Labor either; new tax breaks have already come in, and the company tax rate is set to fall.


----------



## moXJO (3 March 2012)

Eager said:


> The small self employed in this country always seek gov't handouts. Maybe they should be focussing on their business models instead? They do not always get a head kicking from Labor either; new tax breaks have already come in, and the company tax rate is set to fall.




Lol no idea have you.


----------



## Julia (3 March 2012)

Eager said:


> I was merely pointing out that the majority of the membership here do nothing but complain about how bad they perceive things to be.



I don't suppose it would occur to you for a minute that things actually are bad?
No, of course not.

MoXJO:  +1 on your comments.
I had a bloke here to quote on the pink batts.  He told me with much jubilation how he had absolutely zilch experience in the product, was rapt that to qualify as an installer all he had to do was sit through a seminar for a few hours which required no testing as to how much attendees had comprehended, and whacko, he was a fully qualified installer, then allowed to *employ people who had not even had the meagre above training to go out and do the installations.*

He boasted that he'd never made such easy money in his life.

*****ing unbelievable!


----------



## Eager (4 March 2012)

Julia said:


> I don't suppose it would occur to you for a minute that things actually are bad?
> No, of course not.



 Please tell me where you would rather be, if not this country which is the envy of the world? I hear Greece is cheap at the moment, perhaps you would prefer life there?


Julia said:


> I had a bloke here to quote on the pink batts.



You never had pink batts before then?  Complaining of gov't waste, but personally throwing hundreds of dollars away per year in energy costs due to not having insulation, not to mention the waste of resources to drive your heater or cooler harder? Still complaining of gov't waste are you??? What about personal waste? 

People who live in glass houses etc...


----------



## Starcraftmazter (4 March 2012)

Eager said:


> I was merely pointing out that the majority of the membership here do nothing but complain about how bad they perceive things to be.




You know - I completely agree, it's a comedy of sorts the many people on this forum that bitch and moan about ALP. I wouldn't really mind it if they realised that the party is irrelevant and that any government will screw things up - but no, they seem to have this obsession that the ALP is always wrong and the LNP is always right. Kind of like extremists. I could be fooled into thinking this is the News Ltd headquarters and Gina Fathart is visiting.

I don't know what century LNP will get in power (they will arguably need to get rid of Abbott first...) - but once they do, I'm looking forward to pointing out how f'ed up LNP is at running the country and watching people cry and try hopelessly to defend them.


----------



## Calliope (4 March 2012)

Eager said:


> Please tell me where you would rather be, if not this country which is the envy of the world? I hear Greece is cheap at the moment, perhaps you would prefer life there?
> 
> You never had pink batts before then?  Complaining of gov't waste, but personally throwing hundreds of dollars away per year in energy costs due to not having insulation, not to mention the waste of resources to drive your heater or cooler harder? Still complaining of gov't waste are you??? What about personal waste?
> 
> People who live in glass houses etc...




You seem to have lost your way. All your posts on this thread are off topic.:topic  As a true believer in government waste and incompetence the best thread for you  is; 
*Is the ALP fit to govern?*


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (4 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> You know - I completely agree, it's a comedy of sorts the many people on this forum that bitch and moan about ALP. I wouldn't really mind it if they realised that the party is irrelevant and that any government will screw things up - but no, they seem to have this obsession that the ALP is always wrong and the LNP is always right. Kind of like extremists. I could be fooled into thinking this is the News Ltd headquarters and Gina Fathart is visiting.
> 
> I don't know what century LNP will get in power (they will arguably need to get rid of Abbott first...) - but once they do, I'm looking forward to pointing out how f'ed up LNP is at running the country and watching people cry and try hopelessly to defend them.




And that my friend SCM is your democratic right, and the great advantage of democratic processes.

Unfortunately the Greens/ALP have glass jaws and are too easily hurt. Probably because they now realise they have comprehensively stuffed up the legacy of the Howard years.

Harden up mate.

gg


----------



## ColB (4 March 2012)

Eager said:


> *Please tell me where you would rather be, if not this country which is the envy of the world?* I hear Greece is cheap at the moment, perhaps you would prefer life there?
> 
> You never had pink batts before then? *Complaining of gov't waste,* but personally throwing hundreds of dollars away per year in energy costs due to not having insulation, not to mention the waste of resources to drive your heater or cooler harder? Still complaining of gov't waste are you??? What about personal waste?
> 
> People who live in glass houses etc...




You're soooh right Eager, this is one of the best places to live in the world.  All the illegal immigrants sure know it with their motel accomodation, cash grants, free mobile phones, free health etc etc whilst an aussie in hardship trying to get some government assistance is run round and round in circles with the associated bureaucratic red tape and would not get half of what the boaties get.

As for the Pink Batts and the rorting, could you enlighten us as to how many contractors were charged for fraudulent activity as a result of the subsequent government enquiry into the rorts.  Thats right, NOT ONE folks!!

All this and more under the control of the most inept Labor Government in history and its begs the question who in there right mind who isn't deluded of course would vote for them..


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## Calliope (4 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> You know - I completely agree, it's a comedy of sorts the many people on this forum that bitch and moan about ALP...
> 
> ...I'm looking forward to pointing out how f'ed up LNP is at running the country and watching people cry and try hopelessly to defend them.




So you are looking forward to when you can bitch and moan yourself. You are now out of your closet.


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## Starcraftmazter (4 March 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Unfortunately the Greens/ALP have glass jaws and are too easily hurt. Probably because they now realise they have comprehensively stuffed up the legacy of the Howard years.




The legacy of the Howard years, let's see....a mining boom wasted, middle class welfare, the biggest housing bubble in the world.

No, that's all still happening - although now at least there is a minor tax on miners.



Garpal Gumnut said:


> Harden up mate.




I'm sick of all the right vs left wing I'm right you're wrong crap. How about some common sense.



Calliope said:


> So you are looking forward to when you can bitch and moan yourself. You are now out of your closet.




Not the bitching I'm looking forward to, but watching LNP supporters cry. There's always enough bitching to do anyway.


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## ColB (4 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> *The legacy of the Howard years, let's see....a mining boom wasted, middle class welfare, the biggest housing bubble in the world.*
> 
> No, that's all still happening - although now at least there is a minor tax on miners.
> 
> I'm sick of all the right vs left wing I'm right you're wrong crap. How about some common sense.




Legacy???  Is that really the best you can come up with?  The mining boom left us with a great surplus which your party squandered on free plasmas, pink bats, over priced school buildings etc etc.


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## Calliope (4 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I'm sick of all the right vs left wing I'm right you're wrong crap. How about some common sense...
> ...Not the bitching I'm looking forward to, but watching LNP supporters cry. There's always enough bitching to do anyway.




Your immaturity shows through. You will probably toughen up when you get a bit older and stop whining.


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## Starcraftmazter (4 March 2012)

ColB said:


> Legacy???  Is that really the best you can come up with?  The mining boom left us with a great surplus which your party squandered on free plasmas, pink bats, over priced school buildings etc etc.




What surplus? It's not the current account surplus - that's fore sure, the housing bubble has ensured we aren't allowed to have one!

Oh the budget surplus? The one delivered on the back of flogging off government assets and a commodity bubble?

Did you even pay attention during the GFC? How can Australia have a surplus if tax receipts go down, welfare entitlements go up and the commodity prices tank? It can't.

None of the things you allude to have anything to do with the party in government. The global credit bubble has burst - and that has significant financial repercussions for all countries, including - and especially Australia.

Now Abbott/LNP want to reign in public spending at a time of consumer deleveraging and cause a full blown recession because they don't understand anything about economics.

It is a joke to suggest _any_ party is capable of good economic governance.


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## Garpal Gumnut (4 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> I'm sick of all the right vs left wing I'm right you're wrong crap. How about some common sense.
> 
> Not the bitching I'm looking forward to, but watching LNP supporters cry. There's always enough bitching to do anyway.




Look in the mirror mate,

gg


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## moXJO (4 March 2012)

Eager said:


> Please tell me where you would rather be, if not this country which is the envy of the world? I hear Greece is cheap at the moment, perhaps you would prefer life there?
> 
> :




How do you think they got there


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## moXJO (4 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> How about some common sense.
> .




Yes lose the lefty mindset so you can get some:


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## Starcraftmazter (4 March 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Look in the mirror mate,




Unlike you I don't belong to any wing of politics. I know that's hard to see through your narrow vision 



moXJO said:


> Yes lose the lefty mindset so you can get some:




Shows your bias.


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## Julia (4 March 2012)

Eager said:


> Please tell me where you would rather be, if not this country which is the envy of the world? I hear Greece is cheap at the moment, perhaps you would prefer life there?
> 
> You never had pink batts before then?  Complaining of gov't waste, but personally throwing hundreds of dollars away per year in energy costs due to not having insulation, not to mention the waste of resources to drive your heater or cooler harder? Still complaining of gov't waste are you??? What about personal waste?
> 
> People who live in glass houses etc...



Completely off topic and irrelevant to the discussion.


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## moXJO (4 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Shows your bias.




Never said I wasn't


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## Calliope (4 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Unlike you I don't belong to any wing of politics. I know that's hard to see through your narrow vision.




Pull the other leg. The only members you attack on this forum are conservatives. This shows your bias. Your vision is quite narrow due to your immaturity.You sound like a Get Up supporter. They also claim to be independant.


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## nulla nulla (4 March 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> And that my friend SCM is your democratic right, and the great advantage of democratic processes.
> 
> Unfortunately the Greens/ALP have glass jaws and are too easily hurt. Probably because they now realise they have comprehensively stuffed up the legacy of the Howard years.
> 
> ...




Like a budgie that has learn't a new tune. One minute you are mates with everyone from Sussex st and the next minute you are extoling the virtues of J Howard. Gotta laugh.

Keep up the posts GG, you are a laugh a minute.


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## IFocus (4 March 2012)

Eager said:


> Please tell me where you would rather be, if not this country which is the envy of the world? I hear Greece is cheap at the moment, perhaps you would prefer life there?




like you points of relevance Eager unfortunately many here live in a parallel universe of sheer pain so please show compassion as only the left can


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## Eager (4 March 2012)

Calliope said:


> Your immaturity shows through. You will probably toughen up when you get a bit older and stop whining.



You know, I was lambasted for using the word 'whining' to describe the conservative zealots here not so long ago.

Apparently, according to some, it is a 'leftie' word, and it was summarily dismissed as having any place here.

Ohhhh, for some consistency!!!!!!


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## Eager (4 March 2012)

moXJO said:


> How do you think they got there



Not only did they get to receive the pension in their 50's, but, like most conservative rogues, the people didn't wanna paya da tax! So not many did!!!!

Seriously, I see your point. You are concerned that Australia is living beyond its means. You are worried that it will not be able to repay its debts, and the economy will collapse because there is a risk of foreclosure, or something.

In real terms, our debt is tiny, and our capacity to repay is solid. 

How is your personal debt:income ratio?


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## Logique (4 March 2012)

Eager said:


> Seriously, I see your point...In real terms, our debt is tiny, and our capacity to repay is solid...



Not trying to shut you down Eager, but ..listen to yourself.


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## Calliope (4 March 2012)

Eager said:


> Apparently, according to some, it is a 'leftie' word, and it was summarily dismissed as having any place here.




It's not a leftie word It is just something lefties do a lot of. You and Starry should toughen up.


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## wayneL (5 March 2012)

IFocus said:


> like you points of relevance Eager unfortunately many here live in a parallel universe of sheer pain so please show compassion as only the left can



Like Stalin, Pol Pot, the Kims of NK and the myriad of left wing tin pot regimes around the world that like to pile the bodies high? Like the left wing climate extremists that dream of blowing up and gaoling those who would rather look at all the science in balance?

Get real IF! 

Your Labor party is as about as compassionate as a loan shark.


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## Starcraftmazter (5 March 2012)

Calliope said:


> The only members you attack on this forum are conservatives.




Once again - your narrow field of view.


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## Calliope (5 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> Once again - your narrow field of view.




Your field of view is obscured by your prejudices.


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## sptrawler (5 March 2012)

Eager said:


> Not only did they get to receive the pension in their 50's, but, like most conservative rogues, the people didn't wanna paya da tax! So not many did!!!!
> 
> Seriously, I see your point. You are concerned that Australia is living beyond its means. You are worried that it will not be able to repay its debts, and the economy will collapse because there is a risk of foreclosure, or something.
> 
> In real terms, our debt is tiny, and our capacity to repay is solid.




If that were true the government would not be scrounging around trying to find ways to stop the slide and balance a budget.
Even they say that if the mining tax and carbon tax are not introduced, there is a huge budget shortfall ($70billion) is mentioned. Which would then take the deficit out to nearly $300billion, that's starting to get up a bit. 
That is due to spending beyond its means, is it not.
Also it is true our debt is tiny ($209 billion) . But it has been accumulated in a short amount of time( 4 years).
It's a bit like someone who earns $50,000 is spending $80,000 and says that's cool, I've only got a debt of $10,000.
The difference is the payg tax payer goes broke for irresponsible spending, the government stitches up the taxpayer.
But that's o.k they are called labor, so therefore they must be looking out for me, they told me so. 
Also they told me Tony is negative, because he doesn't agree with us.
Jeez talk about blind faith.

Don't get me wrong, I don't know if the libs will do any better. However I do know this government has certainly overstayed its welcome. LOL


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## wayneL (5 March 2012)

Eager said:


> The small self employed in this country always seek gov't handouts. Maybe they should be focussing on their business models instead?




Such a sweeping generalization!! 

Eager, do I sense a bit of covetous hostility towards those who get off their @ss, take a risk (often risking their homes) and start a small business?

BTW I have run small business in both Aus and NZ and have never received a blinking cent from gu'mint, never sought it, never wanted it.

Most I know are the same.


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## IFocus (5 March 2012)

wayneL said:


> Like Stalin, Pol Pot, the Kims of NK and the myriad of left wing tin pot regimes around the world that like to pile the bodies high? Like the left wing climate extremists that dream of blowing up and gaoling those who would rather look at all the science in balance?
> 
> Get real IF!
> 
> Your Labor party is as about as compassionate as a loan shark.




Smile........ despots using political labels to project power the only thing they were left of was sanity what sort of argument is that........you forgot the other side lets start with Hitler he liked to execute trade unionist etc how did that turn out?

As for science I think your lot have successfully politicized and poisoned the profession for generations to come some thing you can be proud off perhaps.

Always nice to get a bite


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## wayneL (5 March 2012)

IFocus said:


> Smile........ despots using political labels to project power the only thing they were left of was sanity what sort of argument is that........




Socialism must be implemented by the point of a gun and enforced with brutality. Always has always will.



> you forgot the other side lets start with Hitler he liked to execute trade unionist etc how did that turn out?




Irrelevant I don't make the absurd claim that one side is compassionate while the other isn't.



> As for science I think your lot have successfully politicized and poisoned the profession for generations to come some thing you can be proud off perhaps.




What is "my lot"?


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## moXJO (6 March 2012)

Eager said:


> How is your personal debt:income ratio?




I started saving more once labor got in so I'm fine. Considering the competition is all going out of business I'm not sweating it. Is your point that I'm doing it tough and don't have a valid opinion 
 Looking at the long game I see labor putting this country in the hole, unproductive and restrictive.


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## moXJO (6 March 2012)

IFocus said:


> As for science I think your lot have successfully politicized and poisoned the profession for generations to come some thing you can be proud off perhaps.




Really, I think damns being currently full and too much rain after being told the opposite would happen by a paid government official who was a supposed expert on the matter begs to differ.
Which side of government seems to want to push lies to get what they want again?


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## orr (6 March 2012)

wayneL said:


> Socialism must be implemented by the point of a gun and enforced with brutality. Always has always will.



'Sweeping statements'... You may or may not be able to view this interview with Pasi Sahlberg, Finland's Director of education.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3441913.htm

If you can't view this quick synopsis, you'll have to do a bit of research showing the irrefutable success of the long term project that is the Finish education system, and exposing the quote listed above as one of a nincompoop.


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## Calliope (6 March 2012)

Malcolm Turnbull said that he would be unhappy, however, if he left politics without making a difference. He said;



> *"Take Bob Carr; he was premier of NSW for 10 years and no one can remember anything he did. I cannot imagine anything worse than that, than having a public office and not doing something worthwhile.*




Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ples-choice-20120306-1uh18.html#ixzz1oJhhVYrr


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## explod (6 March 2012)

This thread ought to be closed down. 

With the type of brains trust support on this topic alone the Libs and Nats are gone and buried.


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## Garpal Gumnut (6 March 2012)

nulla nulla said:


> Like a budgie that has learn't a new tune. One minute you are mates with everyone from Sussex st and the next minute you are extoling the virtues of J Howard. Gotta laugh.
> 
> Keep up the posts GG, you are a laugh a minute.




Thanks nulla nulla,

You would be surprised how many in Sussex St. hate the Greens and Commos as much as the Lib/Nats do. 

If you want to see how close the ALP came to another Split recently have a look at ole "Swallowed a Lemon" Kim Carr at the swearing in of yet another new Gillard ministry.

Next we will have ole Lee Rhiannon singing a duet with poor ole Bob Carr in the Senate for the sake of the ALP/Green Unity ticket.

The Lib/Nats are a united, democratic, freedom loving coalition, who want every Australian to have an opportunity to advance themselves. They do not make claytons deals with old commos.

gg


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## Calliope (6 March 2012)

explod said:


> This thread ought to be closed down.




Spoken like a true Bob Brown supporter. If you don't like it - ban it.


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## explod (6 March 2012)

Calliope said:


> Spoken like a true Bob Brown supporter. If you don't like it - ban it.




Just trying to help you all economise on time and effort. 

Better projects elsewhere.


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## sptrawler (6 March 2012)

Starcraftmazter said:


> In my experience and in my discussions with colleagues, every single project that gets outsourced to India ends up a disastrous mess and costs massive amounts of money. I would say there is currently a trend of reverse outsourcing as companies realise there is absolutely no substitute to having engineers (and I am talking about the high-skill high-pay jobs, not call centres) locally, as overall the costs are simply much higher to have them overseas.
> 
> I know of several cases where outsourcing (software and other IT) engineering work to India has led to losses of hundreds of millions specifically because they could not do what local engineers can. By the true force of the free market, those companies that outsource heavily will die, and those who employ locally will thrive. This is exactly what has happened to IBM which massively outsourced to India, and is now a shell of it's former self, losing countless business contracts to local companies.



SCM best you send Westpac an email, they don't seem to agree with you.

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/business-it/westpac-axes-more-it-jobs-20120306-1uhbn.html


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## derty (7 March 2012)

Calliope said:


> Eager said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently, according to some, [_whining_] is a 'leftie' word, and it was summarily dismissed as having any place here.
> ...



That's gold. That is a great example of projection there Calliope. lol


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## nulla nulla (7 March 2012)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks nulla nulla,........
> 
> The Lib/Nats are a united, democratic, freedom loving coalition, who want every Australian to have an opportunity to advance themselves. They do not make claytons deals with old commos.
> 
> gg




LOL, true to form, keep the jokes rolling.


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## Starcraftmazter (7 March 2012)

sptrawler said:


> SCM best you send Westpac an email, they don't seem to agree with you.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/business-it/westpac-axes-more-it-jobs-20120306-1uhbn.html




The banks are hardly a bastion of quality control nor good business decisions. It is like them to look at the bottom line.

Remind me again, how many times last year have their backend systems failed?


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