# Property/Stamp Duty Problems



## gav (11 June 2009)

Hi, I know this is a shares forum but you only need to look at the property threads to know that there are quite a few people here experienced with property.

I was wondering if anyone had any tips/advice for my predicament...

I recently purchased my first PPOR.  I received the first home buyers grant of $14K from the federal govt.  I was also entitled to a $3K grant from my state govt (Victoria).  However, instead of getting the grant from my state govt I applied for stamp duty exemption as I have a Department of Veteran Affairs Health Care Card.

The list of the cards accepted are on the State Revenue Office's website listed here: http://www.sro.vic.gov.au/sro/SROWebSite.nsf/taxes_firsthome_concession.htm

My card is not the "gold card" listed, however it falls under the category of "Health Care Card (Centrelink or Veterans’ Affairs)".  I rang the State Revenue Office to confirm I was eligible.  I was told yes.  I printed out the form to fill in, yet the form only lists "gold card" and "health care card (centrelink)", it doesn't say Veterans Affairs for the health care card.  I rang them back speaking to a different person, and was told I was not eligible.  I was told by my mortgage broker to call again as I had received 2 different answers.  I called again (speaking to a 3rd person), this time I was told they weren't sure, but to fill out the form and try anyway, as the worst that could happen is that it is denied.

A few weeks before settlement I got a call from my mortgage broker stating it had been accepted.  As you can imagine I was very happy.  Settlement was 8 weeks ago and went fine and I moved into my home.

Then on Tuesday I received a call from my conveyencer stating that my application for Stamp Duty Exemption had been denied and I'd need to pay for it.  I didn't understand, as I had already been told by my Mortgage Broker that it had been approved.  I was also wondering why this was an issue now, and how settlement actually took place if there were a problem.

I rang the State Revenue Office and they told me they only accept the Department of Veteran Affairs Gold card, as listed on the application form.  However their website clearly states that it accepts my card too.  But they wouldn't listen.

I then called my Mortgage broker to find out why the hell I was told my Stamp Duty Exemption was approved if it hadn't been.  According to their notes, the CBA (my mortgage provider) told my Mortgage Broker that it had been approved.  They also have the name of the CBA person who told them this.  They called the CBA to find out what happened.  The CBA merely said it was a mistake on that persons behalf, and he should not have told my mortgage broker my exemption had been accepted.

The reason it took so long for anyone to realise this is because apparently it takes the State Revenue Office 6-12weeks to finalise Stamp Duty on properties.

I was told by my mortgage broker that because I'm not eligible for the stamp duty exemption, I would be entitled to the $3K grant from my state govt and a slight concession as the house is my PPOR.  However this still leaves me out of pocket close to $8K.  I asked my Mortgage Broker why I should have to pay when it was clearly the mistake of the CBA.  I was told they "empathize" with me, and that they highly doubted CBA would pay for the mistake, being such a "big bank".  

They even stated they would not go into bat for me against CBA.  It seems that my mortgage broker has received their commission and no longer gives a flying toss.  I paid my conveyencer almost $1K, yet seeing as they have received the money and attended settlement, they won't help either.  

I am now going to visit my mortgage broker and demand a print out of all my notes/files, and take it to CBA.  Then ask CBA to fix their mistake, because I sure as hell am not going to fork out $8K for their incompetence.

Everything I do financially is through CBA - I have streamline account, 2 savings accounts, credit card, house insurance, my commsec trading account, and of course my mortgage.  Would threatening to take all my business elsewhere act in my favour?  Or am I too small to matter?

Anyone that has any ideas/tips/advice, it would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.


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## kincella (11 June 2009)

just related topic....I have come across mainly banking sites recently...checking criteria before calling...only to find the information on the web is outdated...simple as that...no apologies etc from the bank staff...
ie that product is no longer available....or the criteria has changed

and on a refinace last week , I paid an extra 20 k off the loans...and settlement was not to take place before a certain data...to allow the 3 day clearance (even though it was cash)
so they froze the accounts the day before they were supposed to....and said the 20k was not cleared funds.....hogwash as again it was cash not a cheque....then they demanded another 20k on the day of settlement...
which I was not prepared to do..since they supposedly lost my earlier 20k...
so then it cost me another 600 for a new setlement date plus interest and other charges of about 400.....I believe this must happen regularly enough, seems to be in their interest to stuff up as they can then charge additional fees....bit like the banks hey....
so I am out of pocket another 1000 because of stuff ups....do you think anyone is going to refund it to me.....not likely
its a big mortgage clearance group that do a load of work for all the banks....
first they sent me another persons settlement paperwork...and then it just went downhill from there
I wasted about 12 hours past two weeks trying to sort out the mess....
the staff in the clearance place and the solicitors for the bank....seemed to be zombies just programmed to do very basic stuff....
oh and obviously no responsibility taken
time for this transaction to settle...exactly 3 months to the day.....unheard of in the past....kidding the banks are not doing massive business


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## awg (11 June 2009)

first, get a screen shot of the Stamp duty website that shows your card is eligible.

You may be able to fight the State Revenue office via the Admin appeals Review or similar.

Re the bank.

You have to negotiate!

have done this a few times, and I received some compensation.

beats nothing

very difficult to fight the banks legally, so dont p!iss them off

try to negotiate with the right person

consult with your solicitor if you have one.

if you dont, many will give you a free appraisal 

some you win, some you dont


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## Soft Dough (11 June 2009)

gav said:


> A few weeks before settlement I got a call from my mortgage broker stating it had been accepted.  As you can imagine I was very happy.  Settlement was 8 weeks ago and went fine and I moved into my home.
> 
> Then on Tuesday I received a call from my conveyencer stating that my application for Stamp Duty Exemption had been denied and I'd need to pay for it.  I didn't understand, as I had already been told by my Mortgage Broker that it had been approved.  I was also wondering why this was an issue now, and how settlement actually took place if there were a problem.




Well you take the letter you received from your "broker" and get it sorted out legally.

You did get it all in writing didn't you?

I guess you will get everything in writing from now on?

A hard learned lesson I bet.


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## happytown (11 June 2009)

don't have any experience with what you are going through, however, the following *may or may not be of use*

the screen shot as suggested by awg
a written record (of your own) of all the conversations, meetings, dealings you have had in this matter (if you don't have one, start writing one up)
written correspondence from all (or as many as possible) those involved in essence supporting the facts as you have laid out
you may not be able to get your 'file' from the mortgage broker, if you can, great
contact your local state member re the state revenue office website (and your reliance on it)
contact the ombudsman re the state revenue office website (and your reliance on it)
contact the financial services ombudsman re the cth bank (at the very least you can get a cba customer complaints contact - not a call centre or a ditz at your local branch (have done this once before, with the cba, personal service, you deal with one person and get their direct number, the outcome for me was 100% of what i sought))
contact your branch manager and as awg says negotiate

try the above, for in most cases the cost of a local call

cheers


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## gav (11 June 2009)

Thank-you for your responses so far.

I went to my mortgage broker and had them print the file of the details of CBA stating the stamp duty exemption had been approved.  However this isn't even an issue, because when I spoke to CBA, my case manager admitted the person made a mistake and it was never approved in the first place.  Yet they are still saying I have to fork out the extra money when they admit an employee of theirs made the mistake.

I told the case manager I would contact the banking/financial ombudsman and/or take my loan elsewhere, she didn't seem too phased.  However the person in charge of loans at my local branch wasn't happy about that and wants the issue resolved and made an appointment with me to see him next week (I don't know how he could fix this?).  Basically they can cough up the $8K for their mistake (which is only about 6 months worth of my mortgage's interest), or I take my loan elsewhere and they'll lose hundreds of thousands in interest.

I'm drafting a letter to my local state member about the State Revenue Office declining my exemption when my card is clearly on their website, and will also write to the banking/financial ombudsman.


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## Kez180 (11 June 2009)

gav said:


> Thank-you for your responses so far.
> 
> I went to my mortgage broker and had them print the file of the details of CBA stating the stamp duty exemption had been approved.  However this isn't even an issue, because when I spoke to CBA, my case manager admitted the person made a mistake and it was never approved in the first place.  Yet they are still saying I have to fork out the extra money when they admit an employee of theirs made the mistake.
> 
> ...




They will probably try and get you with a 'deferred establishment fee' Should be $700 with CBA

If you have a fixed interest loan they will smash you on the break costs...


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## ROE (11 June 2009)

Unless you have alot of money with the bank and I mean at least 500K to a Million in Cash. 
don't threaten them you wont get far, they just may ignore you all together and wont help you out.

also once the loan is sign you are up for break fees and that could be in the same order as
the amount you seek to get back so threat is not really a good option for you..

Threat is a bad way to start a negotiation when you have no bargaining power..
Look at North Korea ,people just ignore them...Nuclear or not the American can easily take them out with air strike...so they can shout as loud as they want...no one listen...

I say work something out with them and make them feel empathy toward you and they are more likely to help you than empty threat...


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## gav (11 June 2009)

Hi ROE,

I thought they may not care if I tried to take my business elsewhere as I am a reasonably small fish financially!

The fees incurred from breaking the loan contract would only be $1K.  However then there would be set up fees when I change to another lender, etc.  CBA have admitted to stuffing up, so perhaps I might try to negotiate that they pay for half.  Negotiating might work better than empty threats... and that way they'd only lose roughly 3 months worth of interest and I'd lose about 3 months worth of mortgage repayments...

I have sent a letter to my local state member of parliament to see if they will contact the State Revenue Office to help determine why my stamp duty application was exempt even though I hold a card that is clearly listed on their website.


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## robots (11 June 2009)

hello Gav,

can you clarify a couple of things:

you have a stamp duty bill for 8k from the State Revenue Office?

is the conveyancer asking you to pay this or has it been forwarded to you?

if the card is listed on the website but not "specifically" on the form then i would pursue the issue with SRO, forget CBA

i would be heading into the SRO with details and "discussing/resolving" the situation with management

hit the media next 3aw 

thankyou
associate professor robots


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## gav (11 June 2009)

Hi Robots,

My Stamp Duty bill will be just under $8K when you take into account I get a discount for it being a PPOR and I am entitled to $3K from the state govt as my stamp duty exemption application was not approved.  The State Revenue Office are pursuing these funds through CBA, my mortgage broker.

You are correct - my card is listed on the website, but not on the application form.  They are telling me the website was wrong 4 months ago when I applied for the exemption, yet it STILL says my card is accepted today...

Hopefully my local MP can help.  I spent the majority of my only day off this week trying to sort it out, so I'll have to wait until next week to go in to the SRO to discuss/attempt to resolve the issue.


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## marklar (11 June 2009)

gav said:


> Would threatening to take all my business elsewhere act in my favour?



Nope.  The big 4 don't care if they keep your business or not.

I read NAB the riot act after they lost my credit card IN A NAB BRANCH! and then had the hide to tell me I should be thankful they 
a) covered the cost of the initial 'special' courier delivery that they lost
b) covered the cost of re-ordering the replacement for the lost card and 'special' courier delivery that still took a week
and 
c) cancelled the original card which left me without a credit card for more than a week

I threatened to take my business elsewhere, they said they didn't care.  The 'we valued your business' bit on my final statement made me laugh.

m.


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## Stan 101 (11 June 2009)

I don't understand where the issue with CBA is. I can certainly understand your disappointment, though. Someone made a mistake, as humans are known to do. Why should the bank pay you $8k?

I take it you were set to purchase the property whether you received the stamp duty rebate or not. Did you simply assume you would be granted the fee?

I'm sure you will find that the web page has incorrect data; possibly just a typo or similar. As you were told, the paperwork clearly stated the prerequisites and you didn't qualify.

By all means call the revenue dept and discuss it. Also call your MP and discuss it. I don't like your chances, though.

Again I do feel for you, but rules are rules and I don't like your chances on this.



cheers,


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## Julia (11 June 2009)

Gav, the power balance between you and the bank is very unequal, so if I were you I wouldn't get into any sort of threatening behaviour.  It's unlikely to produce the result you're looking for and if you do close down all your accounts it becomes an administrative nightmare transferring everything.

I'd have a further discussion with them, in possession of the screenshot as previously suggested, and if this appears to be unproductive, then I'd just politely say that it appears you have no alternative than to contact the banking ombudsman.  Then do that.

Good luck.


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## gav (12 June 2009)

my reply in bold...



Stan 101 said:


> I don't understand where the issue with CBA is. I can certainly understand your disappointment, though. Someone made a mistake, as humans are known to do. Why should the bank pay you $8k?
> 
> *For arguments sake if I lost my job and I am unable to make my mortgage repayments, what will happen?  The bank will reposess my house.  It would be my mistake for not being able to service the mortgage, so therefore I'd suffer the consequences.  CBA have admitted to making a mistake in this situation yet refuse to compensate me in any way.
> 
> ...


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## Stan 101 (12 June 2009)

gav said:


> my reply in bold...
> "Another mistake, this time by the State Revenue Office. On what occasion is ANYBODY held accountable for their actions? CBA make a mistake, SRO make a mistake - yet it's me who's left with the $8K bill..."




You were always going to have that bill unless you were granted the exemption. You weren't grant the exemption, so you pay. It seems absurd to ask the bank for money in this instance.

The actual form you filled out clearly stated you were not eligible. I realise you asked question, but in the end it is the government process you need to look at and the form apparently stated you did not meet criteria. I've been screwed over by a bank in a similar way. I put it down to experience. 


Accountants have an "all care, no responsibility" clause when lodging tax returns. Would you expect to have the accountant pay the shortfall if they made a mistake lodging your tax return and instead of their estimate of a $1000 return, you in fact had an $8k bill?


As I said, I feel for you and you should request answers on why you were given incorrect information. But the matter is you were never given the correct info. It seems you were never entitled to the money (according to the official application) so it's end of story. Why would you be expecting it now?


cheers,


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## robots (12 June 2009)

hello,

just remember keep your "cards" close to your chest when discussing things with people ie. when you speak with SRO or CBA to try and resolve the issue

do you have a copy of the bill? or conveyancer has it? or mortgage broker has it?

thankyou
associate professor robots


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## gav (16 June 2009)

Just an update:

I received a call from the Commonwealth Loan Case Manager who is sorting this mess out.  She said I now have to pay over $9K for Stamp Duty, when I received in writing last week it would only be $8K.  I asked why the amount had gone up, and she said that the original amount was wrong.  She also said if I could not afford this, it would simply be added to my mortgage and I'd be required to pay interest on it.  I called my mortgage broker to find out what is going on, as I had it in writing that it was only for $8K.  They investigated the situation to find out.

Apparently the Commonwealth Loan Case Manager who I was on the phone to made a "keyboard error", and $8000 is the correct amount.  It seems a lot of people are making mistakes in the Commonwealth Bank these days.  So I requested an email and a formal letter from Commonwealth that lists the EXACT amount, so that this time there cannot be any errors.

I then got a call from a person at my local member of parliament's office, as I wrote to them about my Stamp Duty Card exemption being rejected when it is listed on the SRO website.  They are taking my letter to the State Treasurer on my behalf and asking for an explanation.  At this stage I am not anticipating anything will come of this, however I am grateful they are looking into this for me.


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## adobee (16 June 2009)

Okay I am not ultra familiar with Victoria but I dont understand why on earth CBA would be responsible for your stamp duty ?????? I cant even see how it has anything to do with them as to whether or not it is payable ??? How could they possible answere this as it is an OSR matter..

That being said is there some confusion between Stamp duty on the mortgage and stamp duty on the property... 

I expect CBA may have told the broker if your were exempt from stamp duty then you would not be liable for stamp duty on the mortage.. 

If initially you new you would have to pay stampy duty would you have proceeded with the purchase ? If YES.. then move on and dont waste you time.. If you are going to take it up with anyone take it up with OSR as there website has the error if anything... Since when does anyone get advice on duties from the CBA ? Unless it was a financial advisor I dont see how second hand information from the CBA can be taken about Stamp duty when they are not even the persons whom collect it ???


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