# Nothing to something scalping system



## Trembling Hand

Thought I might post some ongoing results of a strategy I run on the SPI. Lots of comments this year about this market being too hard to make money in and TA not working anymore and FA blah blah blah.....but for me this is the best of times. It wasn’t that long ago the SPI would be having a big day if it had a 40 point range. Now that’s just about the average range for the first 10 minutes. I am finding more and more opportunities in this mess.

My trading is all scalping in the true sense. I have no targets but rather aim for entries on counter ticks to small patterns I see repeating in whatever instrument I trade, in this case it’s a SPI linked CFD and once in a trade will flip out of it on just about any tick against me until it’s a good 10 points or more in my favour then if I think it might be a runner I will trail a stop. But to be honest my head is so wired to flipping I’m more than happy to take 10 ticks and close the trade. Because this uses CFDs and you are down 2 points on any entry my initial stop is only a tick. Of course I have many trades that lose more than that but I don’t let a couple of bigger than expected losses upset me. I just keep plugging away.

The trades I am posting are from one of many strategies I trade. This one is called the *Nothing to something scalping system*. I do lots more volume in the Futs but I trade more CFDs on the open and close as a warm up. This stops me from blowing my daily stop on a couple of sh!tty big volume trades on the open. I will use much larger volume in the futs mainly because the CFD providers close me down too soon if I hit them with big volume and secondly I’m normally trading very small amounts of friend’s money with the CFDs. Which is what I am doing with this account. I will be ramping up the lot sizes almost daily so it’s will be interesting to watch what can be done as far as aggressive trading goes.

Just to be clear these results are from the first 10 to 20 min on the open and close each day. After the open I move on to trading just the SPI and HSI futs where I get really busy.

Also these are small but real money accounts not demo, I will send statements to some Mods to verify that I’m not full of BS.

The amounts in these accounts are tiny % of my total trading capital.

The point of the thread is to show what I believe mostly lacking in trading info. That is that you are better off being creative and developing your own approach rather than following “accepted wisdom” and trying to imitate a guru’s method.

So here are yesterdays and today’s results.


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## Trembling Hand

*Re: Nothing to something scalping system.*

1st of Oct


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## Trembling Hand

*Re: Nothing to something scalping system.*

2nd of Oct.

Today I dug a bit of a hole for myself when I got swept on a couple of bad trades. This is not that unusual and part of the reason why I start slow and build up lots sizes on my trades in the futs.


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## Timmy

*Re: Nothing to something scalping system.*



Trembling Hand said:


> Also these are small but real money accounts not demo, I will send statements to some Mods to verify that I’m not full of BS.




Just to add to this comment from TH - I have seen real money account statements. direct from the broker that verify TH's trading - no BS.  For those wanting to learn from a real trader, trading real money, this is going to be a very valuable thread.


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## BentRod

Great Thread TH.

What do you use to record all your trades to get stats? Excel?
Does it take long to input all trades after a trading day?


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## roland

Hey TH, how about a quick tutorial about getting into this system. I, like many others, are struggling with trading shares and battling just to keep our capital - let alone making a profit.


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## James Austin

TH

thanks for sharing
it is always good to see how others approach the market, 
there are a multitude of ways as u well know.

a hypothetical question for u,

lets say you are averaging 100 pnts a day, quite achievable no doubt, 
if you could gain this in just say, 8 or 10 trades, would you prefer it, 
or would you rather do 100 trades a day??

thanks
James

PS i dont have anything i'm trying to sell u, just interested


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## skyQuake

TH, what settings are you using on the stochastics to scalp? 

: jkjk

Are these scalps based on the ladder/tape or charts based? Also with CFD providers, its nice to have a 2tic spread when the underlying has a 4tic spread like today but is execution speed/filling an issue? 

Thanks


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## Trembling Hand

BentRod said:


> Great Thread TH.
> 
> What do you use to record all your trades to get stats? Excel?
> Does it take long to input all trades after a trading day?



 No time at all. just export the data then past it into an excel template.



roland said:


> Hey TH, how about a quick tutorial about getting into this system. I, like many others, are struggling with trading shares and battling just to keep our capital - let alone making a profit.



 Wax on, wax off.




James Austin said:


> TH
> a hypothetical question for u,
> 
> lets say you are averaging 100 pnts a day, quite achievable no doubt,
> if you could gain this in just say, 8 or 10 trades, would you prefer it,
> or would you rather do 100 trades a day??




The diff I find between my scalping and trying for intraday swing/position trades is that i have very few down days. You can probably take more ticks on certain days with longer term day trading but there is going to be days when more you end well in the red also. Unless you have a very high win/loss ratio. I mean I can lose 10 time in a row and still only be down 20 or so ticks. Looking for bigger moves you need bigger stops so a few losses in a row and you are going to be down a lot more. I think they probably even out in the long run. I will at a later date explain my thinking on this.



skyQuake said:


> TH, what settings are you using on the stochastics to scalp?



 Nah thats just 1 of 10 indicators I use. :

Mostly DOM with the odd glance at a 1 min chart.


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## BentRod

What is DOM ?

Also do you ever turn a scalp trade into a swing trade after an exceptional market move??


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## Trembling Hand

BentRod said:


> What is DOM ?
> 
> Also do you ever turn a scalp trade into a swing trade after an exceptional market move??




Depth Of Market. Also know as price ladder. see pic of Spi futs.

Yeah if it runs hard I will trail a stop if I think its got legs. But I'm more than likely to flip and reverse at any sec.


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## BentRod

Thanks mate


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## roland

Trembling Hand said:


> Wax on, wax off.




quite a dumbo response for a valid question, thanks - I used to respect your posts


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## nunthewiser

roland said:


> quite a dumbo response for a valid question, thanks - I used to respect your posts




The devil made him do it ............... intresting thread cheers


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## Trembling Hand

roland said:


> quite a dumbo response for a valid question, thanks - I used to respect your posts




Come on just playing didn't mean to offend :. But its the basis of what I think makes the diff.

You have to practise, practise and then practise some more. Its all about screen time, years off it.

I will run over how I go about this eventually but it will be of no use to just know what I do. You still have to do the time. I see this time and time again. People "learn" a TA method and are using it 2 weeks after discovery. To me thats all wrong.


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## chops_a_must

F me!

That's all I have to say.


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## barney

:cowboy:  Fastest trigger finger in the west   ...... amazing stuff!!


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## refined silver

TH, I respect what you do, and think you do what you do the right way. I've also noticed you are very aware and careful with risk management inside your system.

I don't want to hijack the thread away from what you are showing, but did just wanted to ask if you've considered risk coming from totally outside your system? 

Eg What if your broker goes broke, due to their own problems or a counterparty's? (If you have all your cash with your broker that is) 

Have you considered moving most of it somewhere 100% safe (eg Treasury bills in your name, not in the name of a custodian, and not pooled with the assets of other clients. (I won't bother mentioning gold!)) and only leaving in what you will need for a day or two trading?


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## Trembling Hand

refined silver I have it spread out enough that if a couple fall over I won't be lining up at the soup kitchen. I actually throw off a bit off cash each month and don't need a lot in my trading account to do what I do. So it gets moved out monthly. Especially since I have stopped trading things overnight. Whether where it goes is any safer 

If they all go down well then I will grab my new bike  and tent and go and live in Byron. Which is where I started about 8 years ago busted ar$e broke and living in a $20 tent in the bush  _Such is life_


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## rub92me

How on the planet of the apes do you manage to execute so many trades in such a short timeframe? It looks like you're doing 2-3 trades a minute. And you still manage to post on a forum. I get dizzy just looking at your stats.
It takes me about a minute to properly set up a bracket order and check it, not even considering the time it takes me to realise I have a good set up before that. Maybe I'm just a slow old dog.


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## Trembling Hand

I'm a big fan of doing rather than thinking!!  

I mean the world is full of thinkers and look at the mess we are in.


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## James Austin

Trembling Hand said:


> If they all go down well then I will grab my new bike  and tent and go and live in Byron. Which is where I started about 8 years ago busted ar$e broke and living in a $20 tent in the bush  _Such is life_




that sounds fantastic
as i sit here watching charts move around


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## tech/a

T/H Whats your turn around cost?


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## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> T/H Whats your turn around cost?




CFDs indexes have no brokerage just a spread that robs you.

So the costs are in the results.


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## tech/a

Trembling Hand said:


> CFDs indexes have no brokerage just a spread that robs you.
> 
> So the costs are in the results.




Your trading CFD indexes.

So based on the results posted above you trade once every few minutes using depth as your indicator for a daily average return of $250 to $400 is that right?


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## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> Your trading CFD indexes.
> 
> So based on the results posted above you trade once every few minutes using depth as your indicator for a daily average return of $250 to $400 is that right?




here we go 

I thought you would wait for some more result but I over estimated you!!

No tech. these results are for 20 odd mins of trading on the open and same on the close starting with a friends measly capital of $800. Which will be grown into $10,000 or more within a couple of weeks. 

In the mean time I will be going about my biz as usual, turning over many times the amount of this and taking many times this P in the real market :


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## tech/a

Thats around 1 trade every 30 seconds.
Amazing.


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## Bin57again

TH
You're trading way too frequently IMO. Surely you're system would work equally well on 10 trades a day and zap your energy less?

Bin


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## jersey10

Trembling Hand said:


> here we go
> 
> I thought you would wait for some more result but I over estimated you!!
> 
> No tech. these results are for 20 odd mins of trading on the open and same on the close starting with a friends measly capital of $800. Which will be grown into $10,000 or more within a couple of weeks.
> 
> In the mean time I will be going about my biz as usual, turning over many times the amount of this and taking many times this P in the real market :




I've got $800. Can i be your friend too?


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## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> Thats around 1 trade every 30 seconds.
> Amazing.




That's why I thought I would post the results. It may be of interest to some people. Even if its only to prove I'm an idiot.


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## barney

Trembling Hand said:


> That's why I thought I would post the results. It may be of interest to some people. Even if its only to prove I'm an idiot.





Haha ............ Smartest idiot I know


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## Trembling Hand

Bin57again said:


> TH
> You're trading way too frequently IMO. Surely you're system would work equally well on 10 trades a day and zap your energy less?
> 
> Bin




How can you trade too often if you have a positive expectancy system????

Could you explain that?

I mean if I have an expectancy of say 4 points per 10 trades(after cost). What will be the diff between 10 trades and 100 trades?? 36 points!!


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## Bin57again

Because ultimately you're human and therefore prone to (1) error and (2) gambling. (2) is the bigger problem. Many traders overtrade, become overly confident, bet the farm...and lose.
Most successful traders (even scalpers like Senters) keep their trades low.


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## disarray

rub92me said:


> How on the planet of the apes do you manage to execute so many trades in such a short timeframe?




he's trading off market depth so he's got a much wider information stream than we receive as chartists. through the chart we get price action as the end result of the buy / sell process, dom puts you a step closer to the inner working of the system. he's almost appears to be scalping people's intentions.

with dom aren't just watching the price as a result of buys and sells, you are watching the entire supply / demand range in action which lets you anticipate price action much more clearly because you are watching it unfold instead of watching it resolve.

and once again the real secret is screen time. this gets all metaphysical but imo you get a vibe for an instrument because as a chaotic system it keeps throwing up regular patterns, which we as humans can be programmed to pick up on. now many of us look for patterns in the charts, he looks for patterns in dom. he is trading in the guts of the machine while we are standing outside receiving the output (often from the rear end it seems).

all this is my assumption of course and i am happy to be schooled in this matter


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## Trembling Hand

Bin57again said:


> Because ultimately you're human and therefore prone to (1) error and (2) gambling. (2) is the bigger problem. Many traders overtrade, become overly confident, bet the farm...and lose.
> Most successful traders (even scalpers like Senters) keep their trades low.




Thats all just cliche rubbish. My frequency doesn't alter my expectancy.


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## Bin57again

Well that's ok then...


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## refined silver

Trembling Hand said:


> refined silver I have it spread out enough that if a couple fall over I won't be lining up at the soup kitchen. I actually throw off a bit off cash each month and don't need a lot in my trading account to do what I do. So it gets moved out monthly. Especially since I have stopped trading things overnight. Whether where it goes is any safer
> 
> If they all go down well then I will grab my new bike  and tent and go and live in Byron. Which is where I started about 8 years ago busted ar$e broke and living in a $20 tent in the bush  _Such is life_




Fair enough!! 

I remember busting a gut sprinting for $20 primes in 180km road races or 50km crits as a main source of income at one stage in life, you probably did too, but maybe thats how you got to Byron the first time!


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## Bin57again

Trembling
I missed that post. You've revealed your hand...jog on...


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## Trembling Hand

refined silver said:


> I remember busting a gut sprinting for $20 primes in 180km road races or 50km crits as a main source of income at one stage in life, you probably did too, but maybe thats how you got to Byron the first time!





Ha ha!! They were the days. I remember having to take sprints in road races or I didn't have petrol money to get home!!  And for some silly reason I miss them


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## tech/a

Having watched as much depth as anyone it soon becomes obvious that those who want to sell and those who wish to buy do so at market.
Many have looked and claim an edge trading depth.
Frankly I just cant see it and T/H your very slight expectancy seems to vindicate my observations.

Youve been doing this a while and seem to have a handle on it good luck to you.


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## Bronte

Thank you for sharing your trading TH
You are a very special person


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## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> Many have looked and claim an edge trading depth.
> Frankly I just cant see it



 Then its obviously not there if you carn't do it.

Did I ever say that looking at what is sitting in the order book was worth trading off???????????????

People who claim to trade off the DOM use it as incorrectly as they use TA. 



tech/a said:


> T/H your very slight expectancy seems to vindicate my observations.



 I would of thought you would wait for more than 2 days results to draw a conclusion.


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## MRC & Co

Good stuff TH.  

Tech, I think depth trading is more of hitting market on the HSI, which you have to trade completely differently to the SPI IMO.  It's more of a momentum market.  Sometimes in SPI you can actually see institutions load up a split second before they hit market, and with concentration, fast reactions and quick execution, you can actually frontrun them and load up yourself, or simply get on the start of the move if they begin sweeping the market.  I'm still trying to get a feel for what is happening in the book, but no doubt many use it.  

There are definately a lot of depth traders out there, infact practically 100% of scalpers worldwide use it for the vast majority of their trading from what I hear and see.

TH, on the trades that are 5 + tick losses, are they because they gapped over your stop (not sure if this can happen with CFD's) or because you felt they were going your way and gave a bit more room to move?


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## Trembling Hand

MRC & Co said:


> Sometimes in SPI you can actually see institutions load up a split second before they hit market, and with concentration, fast reactions and quick execution, you can actually frontrun them and load up yourself, or simply get on the start of the move if they begin sweeping the market.




Or you can take the other side and flip as soon as the market whips back after one of the big boys push the market to hard.



MRC & Co said:


> TH, on the trades that are 5 + tick losses, are they because they gapped over your stop (not sure if this can happen with CFD's) or because you felt they were going your way and gave a bit more room to move?




No they were just the result of being swept by funny buggers past my stop. happens a couple of times a day. I'm also using a different cfd provider that I'm not use to yet. had a couple of fat fingers when I got short but thought I was long!!


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## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> Or you can take the other side and flip as soon as the market whips back after one of the big boys push the market to hard.
> 
> No they were just the result of being swept by funny buggers past my stop. happens a couple of times a day.




Yeh, that too.  I think that happened Monday this week.  

Tell me about funny buggers today.  I have stopped trading for now, being flicked 5 ticks because of this damn spread!  It just withdraws way past your stop!  Wish I got guaranteed a 2 tick stop! 

Another thing I have found useful, is when you see an iceberg, fade once it gets a point or two past it, looks like many traders are squeezing those madmen who hit the iceberg.


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## chops_a_must

Why aren't you trading the actual SPI futures at the moment TH?


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## Trembling Hand

chops_a_must said:


> Why aren't you trading the actual SPI futures at the moment TH?




I am. More than the bucket shop. This is just a way to share the luv.


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## skyQuake

Trembling Hand said:


> Even if its only to prove I'm an idiot.




Publish an Idiot's guide to trading then... I'd buy that


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## chops_a_must

Trembling Hand said:


> I am. More than the bucket shop. This is just a way to share the luv.




Ah ok... so these are just results from the CFD index?


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## Trembling Hand

skyQuake said:


> Publish an Idiot's guide to trading then... I'd buy that




Shouldn't you be getting coffee for the real traders in you trading room. :


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## skyQuake

Trembling Hand said:


> Shouldn't you be getting coffee for the real traders in you trading room. :




Oh I got fired from that joint after all the good traders were inexplicably poisoned. Dunno what happened 

Haha actually all the SPI guys are gone for now - didn't like today's price action; cant say i blame them though. Hang seng had a nice open by rest of day and spi were crap.
Hope u had good pickings today.


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## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> Shouldn't you be getting coffee for the real traders in you trading room. :




ha ha ha, love the cheek! 

Skys making a MOTZA on the HSI!


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## Trembling Hand

MRC & Co said:


> ha ha ha, love the cheek!
> 
> Skys making a MOTZA on the HSI!




I gotta get my bit in before all you young guns start taking $$ off me in the SPI & HSI.


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## BentRod

> If they all go down well then I will grab my new bike  and tent and go and live in Byron. Which is where I started about 8 years ago busted ar$e broke and living in a $20 tent in the bush  Such is life




Love stories like this 

Did you know anything about trading back then?

How did you get started in trading?


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## korrupt_1

freak... :

I'm really intrigued at how you take a 5pt loss when the spread is 2 points already... that means that if your entry was off by just 3 points... you'll be out of the trade in no time...

At first glance it's just amazing that you can get around 50pts in the first and last 30mins of trading... but then when I think about it... it's really very achieveable... 25pts in the first and last 15 minutes of trading is really possible...

I'll second the opinion that doing 70 odd trades will require too much concentration and effort for me... I'd rather do 5-10 trades and spent alittle more time to try to catch a good trend... but each to his own i say.. 

Good work nethertheless... I still have a looooong way to go yet...


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## Broadway

Trembling Hand said:


> Did I ever say that looking at what is sitting in the order book was worth trading off???????????????
> 
> People who claim to trade off the DOM use it as incorrectly as they use TA.




So what in the DOM is useful? And how would you use it correctly?(without revealing setups.)

Is it movement and spread?

Or do you find the numerical values of some use?


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## Trembling Hand

BentRod said:


> Did you know anything about trading back then?
> 
> How did you get started in trading?



 I thought I did but the time it has taken to become profitable would suggest not.



Broadway said:


> So what in the DOM is useful? And how would you use it correctly?(without revealing setups.)
> 
> Is it movement and spread?
> 
> Or do you find the numerical values of some use?



 The only thing in the DOM that is of use is who is hitting the market and *when*. The run up today from 2:30 to 3:30 was a perfect example of someone printing the bars. People who think that a lot of sell orders sitting in the order book will cause the price to go down should notice that the opposite is more likely to happen. That 2:30 SPI run again perfect example there was at least twice as many offers than bids and we ran 50 points into it.


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## skyQuake

BentRod said:


> Love stories like this
> 
> Did you know anything about trading back then?
> 
> How did you get started in trading?




One day, a young lad came to me for help riding on his shiny new bike. Looking at his trading log, I took pity on him and taught the lost trader everything I knew.

:


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## Trembling Hand

Not a great day today. This is actually what a bad day looks like for me. And what I was talking about scalpers not having many down days because of the amount of trades. I actually had a run of 9 losses in a row. If you where trading 10 trades a day that would make for a pretty bad day. If you were a swing trader maybe a bad week. But I just keep putt putt putting away. Of course some one will say that they never have that many losses then they will tell you that they have a win/loss of 86%.

I doubled the lot size to a massive $10 per tick  today. Up 15.75 points. Still getting use to a diff broker.


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## Trembling Hand

So first week of the Nothing to something scalping system,

Starting capital $835

P & L 
Wed $370
Thur $240
Fri $158

Week ending Capital  = $1603

Taking bets on where this will end. $0 or 10 gorilla's withing a couple off weeks. Any takers??


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## BentRod

What odds you giving ??


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## Broadway

Trembling Hand said:


> So first week of the Nothing to something scalping system,
> 
> Starting capital $835
> 
> P & L
> Wed $370
> Thur $240
> Fri $158
> 
> Week ending Capital  = $1603
> 
> Taking bets on where this will end. $0 or 10 gorilla's withing a couple off weeks. Any takers??




If your're increasing contracts with capital base, then by next weekend.

The Dom seems like the tool the pros use to push the public around, to get contracts they need before the next move in price.

I find the spi DOM interesting around 10 am. It goes quiet at around 0959, as if the MM is waiting for a vital piece of info. Then at 10, I guess as bhp and parts of asia opens, it gets chaotic. This morning there was a '72' in the bid ladder, which lead to a run up. Other mornings a high number at 10am can be a trap, as the pros use it to gain contracts they need for a move the other way.

Figuring this stuff out is like playing chess against a grandmaster, except there's no chess rule book available.


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## skyQuake

No MM in SPI, also i can safely say that 72 lot was not a spoof.


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## finnsk

T/H did you start with SPI or with shares when ventured into the world of trading?
I find your way of trading intriguing(spelling??)


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## korrupt_1

Trembling Hand said:


> So first week of the Nothing to something scalping system,
> 
> Starting capital $835
> 
> P & L
> Wed $370
> Thur $240
> Fri $158
> 
> Week ending Capital  = $1603
> 
> Taking bets on where this will end. $0 or 10 gorilla's withing a couple off weeks. Any takers??





Averaging 50pts per day so far... betting with $5 contracts... average $250/day... or $1250/wk

at this rate, your 10 gorillas in 8 weeks... however, i think you'll be compounding a little, so i give you 5-7 weeks for your gorillas...

I think with your positive expectancy... there's no way in hell you'll end up with $0.... or I am a banana...


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## Wysiwyg

korrupt_1 said:


> freak... :
> 
> I'm really intrigued at how you take a 5pt loss when the spread is 2 points already... that means that if your entry was off by just 3 points... you'll be out of the trade in no time...




Exactly.Psychologically challenging to have the discipline and patients to do this.For mine it would be hard to have equal bullish and bearish bias.I tried swing trades (forex and stock indices)with lower trade frequency and started to exhibit delusions of grandeur coupled with depression and carpal tunnel syndrome.: 



> I'll second the opinion that doing 70 odd trades will require too much concentration and effort for me... I'd rather do 5-10 trades and spent alittle more time to try to catch a good trend... but each to his own i say..




Sleep well my friend.


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## RobinHood

> Taking bets on where this will end. $0 or 10 gorilla's withing a couple off weeks. Any takers??




10 gorillas if you don't get shutdown b4


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## BentRod

PS....They are Germans not Gorillas.

FFS    :


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## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> I gotta get my bit in before all you young guns start taking $$ off me in the SPI & HSI.




ha ha, hardly!  That wil be the day! 

Korrupt, thing is, with scalping, it is generally easier to tell what will happen the next few seconds.  So if it doesn't happen, why would you need anything wider than a 1-4 tick stop, unless you are trying to catch a huge momentum run where you should maybe widen your stop a bit so you don't get flicked out.  To get on these runs, you are going to have to go for a few, which will mean you will be stopped out on some, but when you get on them and load up, you will make up a STACK!  If you want to scalp, expect at least 40+ trades per day, and that is the very least.


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## lesm

Broadway said:


> So what in the DOM is useful? And how would you use it correctly?(without revealing setups.)
> 
> Is it movement and spread?
> 
> Or do you find the numerical values of some use?




Try googling 'video (trading) dom tape reading'.

James Lee (soultrader) has some videos on his site (traderslaboratory). There area range of videos on youtube and other trading sites, including other sources, which cover this.

No real rocket science, but as TH has mentioned previously requires time and effort (screen time) learning how to use and apply it effectively.


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## Trembling Hand

finnsk said:


> T/H did you start with SPI or with shares when ventured into the world of trading?
> I find your way of trading intriguing(spelling??)




Shares, warrants, options, FX..... tried the lot.

now 98% futs(or linked cfds). Best thing as far as cost per round trip and spread.


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## awg

Hi TH,
          A couple of questions, I'm sure that i am not the first.

A) If the systems you have developed are so profitable, what is the effect of larger position size on your expectancy?

B) If you are able to consistently generate such margins, why dont you take other people on as investors and charge 20% of the profit (for example)

I know that you cant set up your own hedge fund without a lot of hassle and paperwork, but as you have alluded to in the past, I believe you may have had some involvement with proprietry operations.

In the current situation, it would seem that your systems are more favourably aligned with profit making than most others. If what you show is correct ( and i have no reason to doubt that it is), then you are in a position to call the shots.

I suspect scalping is not so amenable to large position sizes, but i could be completely wrong.

good luck to you in your endeavours


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## Trembling Hand

awg said:


> A) If the systems you have developed are so profitable, what is the effect of larger position size on your expectancy?



 You will see as far as CFD providers go and volume, they will close this account down once I get over $50-$75 per tick. As far as the Futs my system is a little different. I scale in and scale out of trades, with the cfds its in or out. I have done this with up to $250 per tick but normally run at $75 to $125 per tick. The Spi handles this with ease and its one of the thinnest markets going. Take the same technique to the K200, DAX or the US futs and ..........



awg said:


> B) If you are able to consistently generate such margins, why dont you take other people on as investors and charge 20% of the profit (for example)



 20%  Try 60%!!!: 


awg said:


> I suspect scalping is not so amenable to large position sizes, but i could be completely wrong.



 Yes you are wrong . As MR C & C, Sky Quake will be able to explain. You take 100 points per day on 10 to 20 contracts it's in a league that is beyond what most can comprehend.

If I don't make a complete tosser of myself doing this I will come back and show the same with the futs.......... one day


----------



## el caballo

TH,

Why are you so definitive that they will shut the account down at that level of trading?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Because they always do. 

Some providers will not even let me open an account.


----------



## skyQuake

Trembling Hand said:


> Because they always do.
> 
> Some providers will not even let me open an account.




_"Don't ever come here to trade. We don't take your business Mr Livingston"_

Bucket shops


----------



## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> Yes you are wrong . As MR C & C, Sky Quake will be able to explain. You take 100 points per day on 10 to 20 contracts it's in a league that is beyond what most can comprehend.




Yes, and to think some can even move 70 lots in the big volume times on the SPI 

Now that is beyond my comprehension!  

But definatley, on big volatility days with size, you can take incredible amounts out of the SPI, just shaving off the edges of the 'paper' moves.


----------



## experttipps

hi TH
thanks for posting on your scalping system. i'm wearing L plates and practising with a trial CFD account and i will be watching this thread as your your system sounds kinda similar to what i want to do. 

Just to clarify - you are using a SPI futures CFD - not just an index CFD ?  and can you tell me which provider you use? I am using GFT but want to try others if they have a trial account. 

cheers 
ET


----------



## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> I scale in and scale out of trades, with the cfds its in or out.




Yeh, I found this is absolutely instrumental!

I have been only trading 1 contract, but scale into big moves upto 6 contracts (when I feel they are coming) and then scale out of it if it moves my way (instantly if it doesn't) and leave the last 1-2 to run it out should the momentum continue.  At least then you bank your profits already with the first few contracts.  Seems to suit me, cause I get jumpy and feel like banking profits early all the time, this way I can do that but also give it room to catch bigger moves which I find very hard psychologically to do with just 1 contract.


----------



## Trembling Hand

experttipps said:


> Just to clarify - you are using a SPI futures CFD - not just an index CFD ?  and can you tell me which provider you use? I am using GFT but want to try others if they have a trial account.



 Your index cfd is linked to the SPI not the XJO. It carn't be linked to the XJO index. One provider does run an algorithm on all the bids in the ASX200 for their quotes but you can't do it on the XJO.

I don't want to tell yet which provider I'm using for this account. It doesn't really matter. They are all the same.



MRC & Co said:


> Yeh, I found this is absolutely instrumental!



 Yeah your right. If you are trading 1 contract its very hard because as soon as you book the profit you then have to find another trade. With 3 or more you can take one quickly let the other go at 8-10 and trail a stop for the last one to get the odd really big winner.


----------



## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> With 3 or more you can take one quickly let the other go at 8-10 and trail a stop for the last one to get the odd really big winner.




Yeh, pretty much exactly how I've been doing it.  But I find most trades I am comfortable just booking profits for 1 contract, just trying to get out before a reaction (or cut and go short if I think the reaction will be big enough).  Then every so often, I will get a sudden feeling that something big is about to take place and then start loading up, many nothing moves and I get out.  Then there are the ones I am not on, which I will try and just let go.


----------



## steve2222

TH, might b hijacking the thread slightly, but ...

1/ what charting software and data feed do you use?

2/ what is your equipment set-up? PCs, laptops, screens etc


----------



## Trembling Hand

Ninja Trader feed with IBs data.

Equipment.
http://tremblinghandtrader.typepad.com/trembling_hand_trader/2007/12/present-time.html


----------



## steve2222

Trembling Hand said:


> Ninja Trader feed with IBs data.
> 
> Equipment.
> http://tremblinghandtrader.typepad.com/trembling_hand_trader/2007/12/present-time.html




TH, are you placing your FUT orders via NT or directly with IB?

Presume your CFD trading orders are done directly with the Australian CFD broker. If this is the case are you still using NT for your analysis eg DOM etc?


----------



## Trembling Hand

NT is great for execution on the US futs like es but not much chop for SPI and HSI because they only show 5 levels from the first bid/ask. That makes it not suited to thin order books like he SPI and definitely no good for HSI. They also don't have hot keys which I needed.

So unfortunately I have to execute using IB's Booktrader.


----------



## RobinHood

MRC & Co said:
			
		

> But definatley, on big volatility days with size, you can take incredible amounts out of the SPI, just shaving off the edges of the 'paper' moves.




what do you mean by shaving off the edges of moves made by paper?


as in catching the a meaty part of the trend, or scalping reactions/corrections?


----------



## Trembling Hand

I didn't trade the open with this account today because of the thin market but did have a little tickle the last hour. Not really a great day to trade with such a low volume market. Made me very flighty and flicked the odd winner a bit too soon but in any case still an up day.


----------



## tech/a

I think the key seen here T/H is consistency.
Chipping away a bit here and a bit there with the odd run.

I noticed the majority of the 155 points down happened to noon.
From then flatish in comparison.Do you find that huge volatility like we have now is better to trade than the 20 point days?

Do you find yourself trading more or less in these volatile times?
Is it harder to read?
Is it worth running a contract or so over a longer time frame separate to and in conjunction with your chipping away technique? (Obviously once in profit let it run just move a stop with it).

The point I'm making is that if you take out just the 6 trades at 4 pips or more then its a bad day.
As I pointed out before its the big wins that make this profitable. Just a thought of trying to have at least a few that run longer and give you that safety/profit factor.


----------



## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> I think the key seen here T/H is consistency.
> Chipping away a bit here and a bit there with the odd run.
> 
> I noticed the majority of the 155 points down happened to noon.
> From then flatish in comparison.Do you find that huge volatility like we have now is better to trade than the 20 point days?
> 
> Do you find yourself trading more or less in these volatile times?
> Is it harder to read?
> Is it worth running a contract or so over a longer time frame separate to and in conjunction with your chipping away technique? (Obviously once in profit let it run just move a stop with it).




Yeah Tech consistency is the key. I build profit through the day. As I build it I get more aggressive. If its not working I don't push it. The important think is not to lose money. Once I get some in the bank I trade differently. The last couple of days haven't been that great for this method. Today in spite of the large range day it was a crap day to trade as the volume was way down. When the big boys come out to play is the time to scalp. I'm thinking they may be back tomorrow. 

As already stated I do trade differently with the Futs. As I have a much bigger position I do trail a stop for the last couple of contracts. The other thing is many of the trades will be the same move/pattern/idea with a couple of entries. 



tech/a said:


> The point I'm making is that if you take out just the 6 trades at 4 pips or more then its a bad day.
> As I pointed out before its the big wins that make this profitable. Just a thought of trying to have at least a few that run longer and give you that safety/profit factor.



 The thing about that scatter chart is when I have a good day there will be a hell of a lot more above the 10 points mark. The last 4 days in spite of being positive actually haven't been that good. What you are looking at are bad days!!


----------



## tech/a

Fair enough.


----------



## skc

el caballo said:


> TH,
> 
> Why are you so definitive that they will shut the account down at that level of trading?






Trembling Hand said:


> Because they always do.




What does a provider say when it shuts you down? 

We regret to inform you that, due to your trading success, we are shutting your account. So long, sucker.


----------



## Trembling Hand

skc said:


> So long, sucker.






What they do is slow down the executions. You go from an auto execution to the manual desk. Makes it impossible to trade. You are trading against them.


----------



## MRC & Co

RobinHood said:


> what do you mean by shaving off the edges of moves made by paper?
> 
> 
> as in catching the a meaty part of the trend, or scalping reactions/corrections?




As in just jump on the start of the moves of the institutions.  They don't care about getting a few ticks worse price, so you just have to shave the edge off some of their profits.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Just a heads up Gents ya gonna want to have a check the results of this lata


----------



## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> Just a heads up Gents ya gonna want to have a check the results of this lata




LOL, you have some CFD trades on in that move?  I just had a 10 lot for some of it, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!  Best day so far!


----------



## Trembling Hand

Just another day in Paradise :bowser:

Have had a big futs position riding longs since the open so have been tapping away scalping the cfd account.


----------



## skyQuake

Great stuff!


----------



## MRC & Co

Trembling Hand said:


> Just another day in Paradise :bowser:
> 
> Have had a big futs position riding longs since the open so have been tapping away scalping the cfd account.




ha ha, I bet!  

Guess that was your daily lot being covered in that long down 5 min candle!    A lot of people getting out there I would think.


----------



## amy997

Hi TH

When you go long off the open on mornings like this morning do you use a stop initially or do you let the trades go into profit then apply a trailing stop later on?

If you use a stop how many points do you allow?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Ok so I'm posting these results with some reluctance. As I said all the results will be verified by a Mod so when the statements come through they will get them.

I need to explain my system a little bit before I continue so as to put todays action in context of how I trade. I have three basic rules to my system,

1. I never want to start the day having to get back more than 1% of my account from the previous days trading. NEVER.

2. I want a system that has few as possible down days.

3. I want to be very aggressive with my trading capital.

Now point 1 and 2 you would think would rule out point 3 but it doesn't have to. This is how I manage to stick to all 3 rules. 

Firstly point 2 as I have stated already becasue I trade so often eventually the stats of a positive expectancy, although slight, system works in my favour. I may be down at some points during the day but mostly it works in my favour.

Point 1 I have a daily stop of 1% of capital. If I lose that its over for the day. PERIOD. Now the down side of that is I can easily have 5 losers in a row at the start so I trade very very small to start with so as not to be taken out before the slight positive expectancy has a chance to work in my favour. As I build profit I increase lot size.

And as you will see this is where the aggressive use of capital comes into play.If I have 50 or more ticks in the bag I increase size then again at 100 and on and on. The end result is if I can keep it together I can have some really large days compared to my MAX Daily Risk. Works for me.


----------



## Trembling Hand

OK so here they are. Not a bad day for me. 

I traded this account just about all day. As I got a good position in my futs account and just trailed a stop all day long. Very Nice.

With this CFD account I went nuts today. As I said yesterday I was expecting a good high volume day and that's when this works well. So I started for the first 10 or so trades @ $20 a tick then went to $25 by lunch I was up 150 ticks so went to $50 a tick. Although went back to $25 over the interest rate announcement for 10 min.

I have included a chart without the two big wins to show the days trades better. If you were wondering they accounted for about 23% of today's profit.


----------



## korrupt_1

Bloody hell... good stuff...

can you trade for me? if you can turn around $10k... in a day... i'm happy to give you 90% commission!!!!!!


----------



## barney

Trembling Hand said:


> OK so here they are. Not a bad day for me.
> 
> I traded this account just about all day. As I got a good position in my futs account and just trailed a stop all day long. Very Nice.
> 
> With this CFD account I went nuts today. As I said yesterday I was expecting a good high volume day and that's when this works well. So I started for the first 10 or so trades @ $20 a tick then went to $25 by lunch I was up 150 ticks so went to $50 a tick. Although went back to $25 over the interest rate announcement for 10 min.
> 
> I have include a chart without the two big wins to show the days trades better. If you were wondering they accounted for about 23% of today's profit.




A recap of my reactions to these kinds of figures ............. 1)      and 2) ...................... 

We have Batman ...we have superman .... now we have "Scalperman" .... lol...      Amazing talent TH.


----------



## skyQuake

Great stuff! How many contracts did u catch the big move on?

Gave a bit back in the chop after 3, nice to see you did well out of that too.


----------



## el caballo

Ok, another book to be made here - at what level of cumulative profit will TH's account be shut down?


----------



## awg

Amazing stuff TH !

As you mentioned in your earlier posts, most organisations dont like to consistently lose money.

Casinos, for example disallow anyone who develops an edge, such as card counters, as soon as they become aware of them.

you seem to have developed an edge based on skill, which is allowing you to consistently beat the market.

are you expecting to have your account terminated?

if so, why not?  ( you are trading on spreads, not commissions?)

If i was a risk manager and found an account that was consistently taking profits off me, you would be politely advised to take your business elsewhere.
(that would be after i offered you a position)

yours in humble naivety


----------



## Trembling Hand

skyQuake said:


> Great stuff! How many contracts did u catch the big move on?
> 
> Gave a bit back in the chop after 3, nice to see you did well out of that too.




I was still hanging onto a couple since the cash open low.  

What a move hey!!


----------



## mazzatelli1000

Trembling Hand said:


> OK so here they are. Not a bad day for me.
> 
> I traded this account just about all day. As I got a good position in my futs account and just trailed a stop all day long. Very Nice.
> 
> With this CFD account I went nuts today. As I said yesterday I was expecting a good high volume day and that's when this works well. So I started for the first 10 or so trades @ $20 a tick then went to $25 by lunch I was up 150 ticks so went to $50 a tick. Although went back to $25 over the interest rate announcement for 10 min.
> 
> I have included a chart without the two big wins to show the days trades better. If you were wondering they accounted for about 23% of today's profit.




Hey TH, I'm sure you've made alot of dough and no doubt have dumped some of it into opther passive investments to keep you going, so a question I was wondering is why you're still in this game?

Is it a love of the markets? or not enough fast women yet? or too many fast women that you have to keep this up


----------



## RobinHood

guess you went over 10 gorillas TH 

to think that was only your friends CFD account!


----------



## Trembling Hand

mazzatelli1000 said:


> so a question I was wondering is why you're still in this game?
> 
> Is it a love of the markets? or not enough fast women yet? or too many fast women that you have to keep this up




I reckon I would do this if it was a computer game. I just like the challenge. 



And fast women.


----------



## tech/a

Just the sort of result youd expect on a day like today.
Great work.


----------



## Porper

Trembling Hand said:


> OK so here they are. Not a bad day for me.





I think you have the decimal point in the wrong place T/H.

Pretty hot stuff alright.

Where do I send my cheque for the "How to make a killing in day trading" course.


----------



## jersey10

I find this thread absolutely phenomenal.  How hard is it to become this effective at trading?
I know TH has said hours and hours of screen time and the hard yards.  Is that all it takes, years of trying and getting a feel for the market and the instrument you are trading?


----------



## tech/a

Happy with a nice little trade of mine today but UNLIKE T/H Im still open so it could go belly up tommorow.Its not a scalp but a discretionary trade.


----------



## Wysiwyg

jersey10 said:


> I find this thread absolutely phenomenal.  How hard is it to become this effective at trading?
> I know TH has said hours and hours of screen time and the hard yards.  Is that all it takes, years of trying and getting a feel for the market and the instrument you are trading?




Yes for sure.I now realise i`ve been holding my contracts for toooo long.Hanging in there for the 50 + point moves is a lower percentage play.Easily seen now by comparison. Thanks T.H.


----------



## peter2

Well done TH. 
An excellent example of cutting your losers asap. 
Your ave loss of 2.045 pts is incredible with a 2 point spread.

You have developed a rare and valuable skill. 
I think you should remind readers that you worked damn hard for a long time and must have had a lot of losing days getting your mind around this game.


----------



## alwaysLearning

Trembling Hand said:


> Ok so I'm posting these results with some reluctance. As I said all the results will be verified by a Mod so when the statements come through they will get them.
> 
> I need to explain my system a little bit before I continue so as to put todays action in context of how I trade. I have three basic rules to my system,
> 
> 1. I never want to start the day having to get back more than 1% of my account from the previous days trading. NEVER.
> 
> 2. I want a system that has few as possible down days.
> 
> 3. I want to be very aggressive with my trading capital.
> 
> Now point 1 and 2 you would think would rule out point 3 but it doesn't have to. This is how I manage to stick to all 3 rules.
> 
> Firstly point 2 as I have stated already becasue I trade so often eventually the stats of a positive expectancy, although slight, system works in my favour. I may be down at some points during the day but mostly it works in my favour.
> 
> Point 1 I have a daily stop of 1% of capital. If I lose that its over for the day. PERIOD. Now the down side of that is I can easily have 5 losers in a row at the start so I trade very very small to start with so as not to be taken out before the slight positive expectancy has a chance to work in my favour. As I build profit I increase lot size.
> 
> And as you will see this is where the aggressive use of capital comes into play.If I have 50 or more ticks in the bag I increase size then again at 100 and on and on. The end result is if I can keep it together I can have some really large days compared to my MAX Daily Risk. Works for me.




ahhh that's really good. I'm going to print this out. My MM has been really bad. This should give me something new to work on. Thanks


----------



## awg

jersey10 said:


> I find this thread absolutely phenomenal.  How hard is it to become this effective at trading?
> I know TH has said hours and hours of screen time and the hard yards.  Is that all it takes, years of trying and getting a feel for the market and the instrument you are trading?





i dont know anything about TH, but he must have absolutely exceptional aptitude for this niche.

some fellows play golf all the time, but they could never, ever make it as pros.

lots of fanatical guitar players out there (like me), but when i see Tommy Emmanuel i still feel like giving up

often repeated on ASF that only 3% of traders are winners.

i imagine the other scalpers ( a specific niche) are also trying to win, obviously many of them are losing.

I imagine TH probably has a fair bit more experience than the average scalper.

as I understand they are mainly young guys and the burnout rate is very high ( not to mention the blowout rate)


----------



## Trembling Hand

awg thanks for the kind words but nothing special about this little duck.

Just practise. The good thing about scalping is you get as much feedback from a weeks trading as most do in a life time. The secrets are to make the bets very small, no home runs needed. Then you have a chance to survive long enough to learn and as we all know there is a lot of mistakes to be made in this game. If you can learn while not doing any psychological damage or too much stress then you have a some sort of chance. I'm would never say its for everyone but if it suits me.


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

Amazing TH. I hope that one day I can be as consistent and great at trading as you are. Keep it up


----------



## alwaysLearning

Hey TH, do you look at common patterns like things such as 'head and shoulder' patterns and stuff like that as well as your own unique patterns that you file away in your folder?

Personally my main interest is focused on how the candles respond at certain levels of support and resistance. I also look at how quickly the candles pulsate up and down and I only buy/sell on 'pull backs'.

Do you use trend lines like channels etc.

Or to put it another way, how do you go about analysing the chart from a technical point of view? There are so many ways and you have written a lot of things in your posts that one can pick up on already but I'm just curious if there is one or two golden nuggets that you could share that is common to a lot of your trades?

Personally, I like channels. But I'm really keen to look at momentum or how quickly the candles move. I don't trade if there is nothing happening on the screen.--I just walk away.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Looking for traditional TA patterns in your instrument is completely the wrong way to go IMO. Whoever said they even occur often enough in your instrument and on your time frame?

Of course you use Support?Resistance/Higher Highs/Lower Lows and all the basics but I reckon you are better off just looking at your market and finding "its" patterns. Which you sound  like you do.

Thats what always gets me about TA. People use patterns that they don't even know their probabilities in the market they apply them to.


----------



## alwaysLearning

Trembling Hand said:


> Looking for traditional TA patterns in your instrument is completely the wrong way to go IMO. Whoever said they even occur often enough in your instrument and on your time frame?
> 
> Of course you use Support?Resistance/Higher Highs/Lower Lows and all the basics but I reckon you are better off just looking at your market and finding "its" patterns. Which you sound  like you do.
> 
> Thats what always gets me about TA. People use patterns that they don't even know their probabilities in the market they apply them to.




Yeah I see what you mean, and that's why I was curious to find out what you thought. Actually you're methods make a lot more sense to me about reading each market's personality.

Having said that, I guess it depends if you trade exclusively on patterns alone or how you integrate TA patterns into your trading rules. For example, it is widely known now I think that if you look at candle sticks in a purely mechanical way, they don't work. 

There were some tests done by swhagger and he basically says that the probability of using candle patterns exclusively are pretty poor. Thing is though that candles are so subjective. If you integrate some of the basic candle patterns as confirmation indicators or something that alerts you to look more closely at something on the chart, then I don't see any problem with them. 

Likewise with head and shoulder patterns. Head and shoulder patterns would be subjective if you use it along with other things as a kind of confirmation pattern. Having said all of that, I still think you are right about looking at the probability of certain patterns in your own market that you are trading and using it if it does have a high probability.

I'm still new but I find that I look for the basic things mostly such as the size of the real body of the candle, how many green candles there are compared to red candles, and then looking at the trend. Trying to see if the trend is within a channel. 

If it breaches the channel wall by x number of pips or breaches support/resistance OR psyche levels by x number of pips then for me, the market is trying to show me its hand in terms of the direction it wants to go. Sometimes I have terrible risk to reward ratios and that is what I'm trying to work on but surprisingly I at times have a very very good win record. (approx 70% or higher). Average loser can be a killer though but I try to terminate trades based on how quickly the market moves against me.

I know that I have MM problems and that's what I'm looking to improve on but it's a continual process of learning.

The biggest thing I've learned from you is that:
1. It is possible to make good money trading.
2. That the process of learning how to trade is to analyse charts and watch them in real time. Print them out and analyse them and write things down about why you made the trade and what went wrong or right.

Anyway, I hope I haven't rambled too much. This is a great thread and I like everyone else here appreciates your effort in helping others and sharing your trading experiences


----------



## brty

TH,

This is an excellent thread that you just turned to gold...



> Looking for traditional TA patterns in your instrument is completely the wrong way to go IMO. Whoever said they even occur often enough in your instrument and on your time frame?
> 
> Of course you use Support?Resistance/Higher Highs/Lower Lows and all the basics but I reckon you are better off just looking at your market and finding "its" patterns.




This is so often ignored by most. Recently I questioned a well known trader about just this point. The answer I got was about how someone else had shown the pattern worked x% of the time in another market in another time. To me that means "no idea".


You should probably start grabbing all the little gems you have written in the forum as the basis for a book at some stage in the future, as your knowledge/market wisdom is much better than many 'experts' that do write books.


brty


----------



## Trembling Hand

Ha!!

Looks like they aren't to keen for me to throw my coin in the bucket today.

Game over!!


----------



## chops_a_must

Lol!

Good work...


----------



## Trembling Hand

Thanks Brty. But I couldn't possible write a book. 30 seconds is a long time for me. How long would a book take


----------



## rub92me

Trembling Hand said:


> Ha!!
> 
> Looks like they aren't to keen for me to throw my coin in the bucket today.
> 
> Game over!!



You mean the provider stopped your account (as anticipated), or you've reached your maximum loss for the day?


----------



## Trembling Hand

rub92me said:


> You mean the provider stopped your account (as anticipated), or you've reached your maximum loss for the day?




I can't get a trade to execute. takes 20 -30 seconds after I hit the button.


----------



## rub92me

Trembling Hand said:


> I can't get a trade to execute. takes 20 -30 seconds after I hit the button.



I can see how that can be a bit of a handicap with an average hold time of 30 seconds


----------



## BBand

Hi TH,
Thank you for this exceptional educational thread.

I operate in timeframes a good bit longer than you and can only marvel at how you trade

How many monitors (screens) do you use?


----------



## mazzatelli1000

BBand said:


> Hi TH,
> Thank you for this exceptional educational thread.
> 
> I operate in timeframes a good bit longer than you and can only marvel at how you trade
> 
> How many monitors (screens) do you use?




He doesnt use any!!
Just waves a magic wand around

When I last looked at TH's blog, it had 4 screens...Im wondering what his electricity bill is


----------



## Trembling Hand

mazzatelli1000 said:


> He doesnt use any!!
> Just waves a magic wand around
> 
> When I last looked at TH's blog, it had 4 screens...Im wondering what his electricity bill is




Ha! If that was the case I would be waving my wand for another latte'.

You can look here. 

But to tell you the truth I spend 98% of the time looking at a 5 cm x 5cm square bit of screen. The rest is just for the odd glance.


----------



## RobinHood

hey TH 

on the link you just posted, left screen with bloomberg page on it.
Underneath that there is something that looks like a quote screen with dozens of instruments. What is that?


----------



## Trembling Hand

First one is world futs and currencies. Second one is ASX stuff. Mostly ASX20.


----------



## MRC & Co

ha ha, love how your equity curve takes off right at the time of the IR cut.

Most of these big moves appear to be how most professional scalpers make their real good coin.  The rest of the day is just taking ticks here and there for their 'bread and butter' so to speak.

To be honest though, anyone with quick execution, news and the balls to get on that move and load up, could have and really should have, made a killing.  No idea how some guys with the first two of those 3 ended up down for the day.........

That was literally a cash giveaway for scalpers.


----------



## RobinHood

Looks good TH.
I've never seen quotes look so compacted (maybe its just the photo). 

What software is it? It doesn't look like its part of TWS..


----------



## RobinHood

MRC & Co said:
			
		

> No idea how some guys with the first two of those 3 ended up down for the day.........




some of big dicks ended up down?


or trainees?


----------



## el caballo

TH,

Given the interruption to your account, I'd be interested to know the name of the CFD provider - do you mind providing it?

Thanks,
Greg


----------



## Trembling Hand

RobinHood said:


> Looks good TH.
> I've never seen quotes look so compacted (maybe its just the photo).
> 
> What software is it? It doesn't look like its part of TWS..



Its NT's Market Analyzer fed with IB data.



el caballo said:


> TH,
> 
> Given the interruption to your account, I'd be interested to know the name of the CFD provider - do you mind providing it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Greg




No. It wouldn't be fair to exclude the others. They all do it and have.


----------



## el caballo

TH,

Do you have empirical evidence that "they all do it?"  I assume here you mean only market making CFD brokers.  The DMA CFD broker that I use has allowed me to profit handsomely with no interruption to service.


----------



## Trembling Hand

el caballo said:


> TH,
> 
> Do you have empirical evidence that "they all do it?"  I assume here you mean only market making CFD brokers.  The DMA CFD broker that I use has allowed me to profit handsomely with no interruption to service.




So have you answered your own question??


----------



## el caballo

Well, actually, I answered only one part of my question (ie. the DMA aspect) - the other implicit component, that is whether non-DMA providers allow clients to be successful, remains unanswered.  I was hoping to hear of your empirical experiences along this line .... apart from the one outlined in this thread.


----------



## skyQuake

el caballo said:


> Well, actually, I answered only one part of my question (ie. the DMA aspect) - the other implicit component, that is whether non-DMA providers allow clients to be successful, remains unanswered.  I was hoping to hear of your empirical experiences along this line .... apart from the one outlined in this thread.




With equities, the CFD providers would generally play fair, DMA more so because they can just hedge your position on market (in theory), and they would want to keep you happy so you keep paying brokerage.
Trading artificial indices and stuff is a different matter as they cannot afford to hedge on market _every_ time someone places an order on mkt due to brokerage and liquidity issues. If you're position trading indices and taking 200pts with a 100pt stop, that would be very different to someone scalping 3 tics with a 1tic stop. You're just feeding on their coffers slow and surely... and bucket shops dont take too kindly to that!




On a side note, TH pity you missed out on the SPI today, some really great moves. Almost as good as the HSI, up 800, down 1000


----------



## prawn_86

This thread is a testament to the great forum and community Joe has put together here at ASF.

Having people like TH onboard can only increase the knowledge here, and we are lucky he is willing to show what he is capable of. It is also good to know that 'anyone' can do it, if they have the dedication...

*For all the doubters out there, I have seen the broker statements and i can confirm that all the trades are real, the $ values are real etc etc.*

Keep it up TH, hopefully one day i can be a quarter as succesfull as you are. And make sure you keep posting


----------



## jersey10

prawn_86 said:


> It is also good to know that 'anyone' can do it, if they have the dedication...




The popular cliche quote is "only 5% of traders are consistently profitable" or something similar.  Are you implying by your above comment that 95% of traders fail simply because they are not dedicated enough?


----------



## MRC & Co

jersey10 said:


> The popular cliche quote is "only 5% of traders are consistently profitable" or something similar.  Are you implying by your above comment that 95% of traders fail simply because they are not dedicated enough?




I would say most do, not sure about 95%.  But how dedicated is dedicated enough?  Some guys spend 15-20 years as loosers to break-even traders before they become consistently profitable.  Trying various markets and styles of trading.  TH put in his hard yards, he could have and would have become one of those 95% statistics if he didn't keep plugging away and that comes from pure passion.  Other than some logic and basic arithmetic, it seems to be the general requirement in this game.


----------



## lindsayf

*If I don't make a complete tosser of myself doing this I will come back and show the same with the futs.......... one day *

Please do!!  I would love to see that!


----------



## MRC & Co

Just to add to the thread, though scalping can be the most angering and frustrating style, the absolute beauty is you can actually see the flow.

A simple example is a downtrend, you get a quick and sudden rally (covering, squeezers etc), then the price just stops in the order book, now what is the probability of what will happen next?  Has the seller gone and a buyer all of a sudden entered?  This is what it looks like, but most likely, no chance.  When price stops (not even seen on the chart yet), this is where you try and enter the short.  Or you can wait for the asks to move back down and the bids start being pulled or thinning out and try and clip them before others do.  But with the second approach, you will probably have to have a slightly wider stop.  

Being able to see the flow of price action intraday, is the true magic of it IMHO.

Maybe this post should be in the order book (market depth) thread.  Ah well.


----------



## JTLP

BUMP...

TH...i'm going on holidays soon. Funds are low.

Please provide Account Number and BSB so I can wire $800 to you for a handsome return in time for my trip.

Sincerely,

JTLP


----------



## Ageo

Amazing thread, TH do you still scalp using CFD's? or have they shut you out from every provider????


----------



## Trembling Hand

Ageo said:


> Amazing thread, TH do you still scalp using CFD's? or have they shut you out from every provider????




I have completely given up on it for the following reasons,

1. SPI volatility has dried up.
2. CFD providers will not let you get any volume anymore. (So its a waste of time)
3. I'm concentrating on other Asian index futs where the size is close to unlimited  the swings are many and the scalping is worth the effort.


But I want to make this clear because I have been contacted by a few newbies. As the SPI stands now with low volatility and a low amount of intraday swings its not the index to scalp. Certainly not with CFDs.

And I would say that just about rules out any scalping with CFDs in any market. As spreads on all other instruments are just to wide to get over jobbing along all day.

DON"T DO IT.


----------



## Ageo

Trembling Hand said:


> I have completely given up on it for the following reasons,
> 
> 1. SPI volatility has dried up.
> 2. CFD providers will not let you get any volume anymore. (So its a waste of time)
> 3. I'm concentrating on other Asian index futs where the size is close to unlimited  the swings are many and the scalping is worth the effort.
> 
> 
> But I want to make this clear because I have been contacted by a few newbies. As the SPI stands now with low volatility and a low amount of intraday swings its not the index to scalp. Certainly not with CFDs.
> 
> And I would say that just about rules out any scalping with CFDs in any market. As spreads on all other instruments are just to wide to get over jobbing along all day.
> 
> DON"T DO IT.




I dont trade intraday so thats fine, if you have another daily blog of your trading i would gladly participate as i found this thread 1 of the most entertaining and educating. 

Cheers


----------



## mattswrxy

What technique's for trading do you use now?  
Thanks


----------



## Trembling Hand

mattswrxy said:


> What technique's for trading do you use now?
> Thanks




The same but just in the futs not bucket shops. Much cheaper, much more size available.


----------



## Ageo

Trembling Hand said:


> The same but just in the futs not bucket shops. Much cheaper, much more size available.




Care to list some trades? (for educational purposes)??


----------



## Trembling Hand

Ageo said:


> Care to list some trades? (for educational purposes)??




LOL how is this for educational?


----------



## beamstas

Trembling Hand said:


> LOL how is this for educational?




Holy cow you are giving ninja trader a fair workout


----------



## el caballo

Gold!


----------



## tech/a

Joke


----------



## beamstas

tech/a said:


> Joke




Yeah hes put up 1min bars and squashed the candles closer together

Still looks funny tho :


----------



## skyQuake

Lift yer game sonny and quit slacking off! :



Are you trading through ninjatrader? Hows the latency on that?


----------



## Trembling Hand

skyQuake said:


> Lift yer game sonny and quit slacking off! :



 Guess who hit their daily stop and when ?  



skyQuake said:


> Are you trading through ninjatrader? Hows the latency on that?




Terrible!! Its through IBs book trader (TWS), just stats and charting with NT.

You pretty much have to anticipate moves to get good fills. Sucks, Spent two weeks in Honkers trading and the diff was amazing. Made me start to look at real estate there. Days like the last 2 makes me think about it again. 



tech/a said:


> Joke



 that was only about 250 trades over 2 days. infact not even that for trades that had more than 1 contract. So each trade could have 6 markers on the chart.


----------



## Mr J

125 over two days is slow - I haven't even made a trade today . I'd prefer a hardcore hour over this nothingness. I keep checking to see whether my charts are on. First I dumped my against the trend trades (break-even), and lately just going with markets when they're moving. There's nothing. SPI is asleep as usual, STW is bouncing in ever decreasing ranges, the currencies are asleep; sadly I didn't have the MHI up, and I could use a bigger balance before trading the K200. k200 marching north, but I couldn't have justified getting on without a pullback to buy into.


----------



## dazers

Trembling Hand said:


> I have completely given up on it for the following reasons,
> 
> 1. SPI volatility has dried up.
> 2. CFD providers will not let you get any volume anymore. (So its a waste of time)
> 3. I'm concentrating on other Asian index futs where the size is close to unlimited  the swings are many and the scalping is worth the effort.
> 
> 
> But I want to make this clear because I have been contacted by a few newbies. As the SPI stands now with low volatility and a low amount of intraday swings its not the index to scalp. Certainly not with CFDs.
> 
> And I would say that just about rules out any scalping with CFDs in any market. As spreads on all other instruments are just to wide to get over jobbing along all day.
> 
> DON"T DO IT.




Fair enough then. But when volatility reurns,

Where would be the cheapest way of accessing DOM info for the SPI? Is there any info vendor or broker (aussie or not) that requires a low minimun opening balance that will provide this?


----------



## MRC & Co

Mr J said:


> 125 over two days is slow - I haven't even made a trade today . I'd prefer a hardcore hour over this nothingness. I keep checking to see whether my charts are on. First I dumped my against the trend trades (break-even), and lately just going with markets when they're moving. There's nothing. SPI is asleep as usual, STW is bouncing in ever decreasing ranges, the currencies are asleep; sadly I didn't have the MHI up, and I could use a bigger balance before trading the K200. k200 marching north, but I couldn't have justified getting on without a pullback to buy into.




I feel your pain brother.

I am changing timezones (don't like HSI, too choppy and at this point, don't have fast connection to KOSPI).  SPI close is even dead sometimes now, though when it's good, it's good, like today, easy money (assuming you purely DOM trade the close)!


----------



## beamstas

dazers said:


> Fair enough then. But when volatility reurns,
> 
> Where would be the cheapest way of accessing DOM info for the SPI? Is there any info vendor or broker (aussie or not) that requires a low minimun opening balance that will provide this?




If you are scalping the SPI off the DOM the last thing you should be worrying about is a minimum opening balance? Im pretty sure that'd be the last thing on most scalpers minds!


----------



## Mr J

MRC & Co said:


> I feel your pain brother.
> 
> I am changing timezones (don't like HSI, too choppy and at this point, don't have fast connection to KOSPI).  SPI close is even dead sometimes now, though when it's good, it's good, like today, easy money (assuming you purely DOM trade the close)!




No DOM trading for me . I would pay attention to it, but it would be like trying to learn French by standing on a street in Paris. I lost my strategy trading the SPI. I let many small profits turn into small losses while trying to catch the larger moves. I imagine this was overcompensating for a habit of not letting 'winners' run, and for the occasional SPI 2pt spread.


----------



## Aussiest

Mr J said:


> There's nothing. SPI is asleep as usual, k200 marching north, but I couldn't have justified getting on without a pullback to buy into.




Really? Going by IG Markets (don't know how reliable it is), the SPI has moved from 3780ish to 3870ish in two days. Reckon there might be a pullback soon, Wall St Cash is looking a bit down.


----------



## Mr J

Much of that was overnight, which isn't useful to me. The timescale I was watching also didn't seem to have nice pullbacks to get into. I've dumped that timescale now, it just wasn't productive enough. Back to my 30 sec to 10 minute trades (or more if I luck on to a good one).


----------



## Mr J

TH, what was your average tick/s per trade stat at the end of this sample?


----------



## Trembling Hand

Mr J said:


> TH, what was your average tick/s per trade stat at the end of this sample?




It was actually flat after brokerage for the two days. So about 1 tick + per trade per contract.  (rest of the month a _bit _better)

First day I got stopped out (and stacks of round trips so stacks of brokerage!!), second day was positive but only made up for the bad days losses and brokerage 

For June it looks to be pretty thin profit per trade per contract. Have now all but stopped trading the SPI and gone nearly 100% HSI this month. So still making some sh!tty mistakes, like the day i got stopped out which was the first bit of that chart. But still profitable for the month so i'll take that I guess to close out the fin year. And what a year .


----------



## Mr J

B/E after placing a couple hundred trades in a couple of days takes skill damn it!


----------



## Zak

Hi Trembling Hand, I have read this thread with great interest.  I was just wondering why you scalped using CFD providers instead of a direct futures account, where you do most of your trades.  What if any advantage do you get from the CFD accounts.  Does your system of scalping work on currency?

Thanks

Brad


----------



## Trembling Hand

Brad the reason I was using CFDs was because the accounts I was trading were not mine. I was helping some friends build up some capital. There is one big advantage with trading volume with CFDs in that you aren't actually effecting the market so there is no slippage. But really that 2 point spread is a disadvantage.

As for my "system" it will work with any trading instrument given enough volatility.


----------



## moXJO

Trembling Hand said:


> Brad the reason I was using CFDs was because the accounts I was trading were not mine. I was helping some friends build up some capital.
> 
> .




Hey TH I need a New Mitsubishi triton or Toyota hilux, but am to stingy to use my capital base. Can you turn my $1000 bucks into $50k too?


----------



## skc

Trembling Hand said:


> As for my "system" it will work with any trading instrument given enough volatility.




So you can do the same with forex? I thought you need to watch the DOM. 



moXJO said:


> Hey TH I need a New Mitsubishi triton or Toyota hilux, but am to stingy to use my capital base. Can you turn my $1000 bucks into $50k too?




Keep your day job and don't try to become a comedian.


----------



## Trembling Hand

skc said:


> So you can do the same with forex? I thought you need to watch the DOM.




You can watch an FX DOM, both futs & ECN.


----------



## moXJO

skc said:


> Keep your day job and don't try to become a comedian.




Whoa who said I was joking:frown:

TH do you mainly trade the index futures now (primarily the HSI). Or trade whatever has shown to have good volatility?
How tight are the stops you use?


----------



## Trembling Hand

moXJO said:


> TH do you mainly trade the index futures now (primarily the HSI). Or trade whatever has shown to have good volatility?
> How tight are the stops you use?




Yep 90% HSI or HHI. Stops depend on the type of trade and the market minute to minute. No point having a 7 tick stop on the open of the HSI where the average 1 minute range is 30 ticks but then its no good having a 20 tick stop during range bound midday market cause your avg winners are only going to be 20 ticks at best.


----------



## Zak

Thanks for your reply TH.  In your trading are you going both long and short regardless of the trend or do you stick to a particular trend long or short albeit that it might only last for 1 min, 5 min, 15 min or 1 hour etc.  If you do what time frames are you watching?  Thanks again.


----------



## keirdoubas

Firstly, thanks so much for providing insight into your Methods TH. 

Have you thought about scalping the DAX TH? its a two point spread on my CFD platform and my index of choice. I find it has plenty of volatility and just mirrors the S&P500 and Dow Jones generally. I like to trade it on an intraday momentum basis, around news and gauging market sentiment.

cheers :star:


----------



## Trembling Hand

CFDs served their purpose but they are really a disadvantage. Given the right account size you are ALWAYS better trading the futs. By a factor of many $1000s over a year.


----------



## georgey

Hi TH
New to this site and am a new CMC customer altho traded off and
on for years with warrants and stocks.
I only have $2000 to play with at present and wondered about yr
comment that futures are better as the Aus200 futures are a 3pt
spread compared to the index of 2c.
Thanks


----------



## Trembling Hand

georgey said:


> Hi TH
> New to this site and am a new CMC customer altho traded off and
> on for years with warrants and stocks.
> I only have $2000 to play with at present and wondered about yr
> comment that futures are better as the Aus200 futures are a 3pt
> spread compared to the index of 2c.
> Thanks




Mate for a start IMNSHO thats not enough to even bother opening an account with. 

As for futs you don't have enough to trade futs by about X10.

As for the CFD vs Futs on the Aus200 if the spread is 3  you are paying $150 cost to trade compared to $60 for the SPI (being $10 brokerage + $50 spread). Probably less if you know how to trade with the spread rather than crossing it.

CFDs are a joke!!


----------



## georgey

Thanks for comments TH
Paper scalp traded Dax other night with 1 contract, 7 shorts/4 buys
and had 10 wins - 1 loss for 32 euros profit. Got in on a good range
admittedly and could get into trouble when price keeps going, so need 
to plan on that scenario. But seeming possibilities to quietly grow
account and it's great not to worry about brokerage.
Dax, Aus and possibly S&P seem markets for small account, HSI and Japan
for later perhaps.
Cheers


----------



## Trembling Hand

georgey said:


> But seeming possibilities to quietly grow
> account and it's great not to worry about brokerage.




You are kidding yourself if you think you are not paying the MOST expensive brokerage going around.

But good luck.


----------



## RazzaDazzla

would love to see this thread continue...

I'm trying to get my head around what exactly scalping is. I know it's trading over extremley small time frames and holding trades for seconds or minutes at a time.

Is it a form of aribtrage? Or is it simply watching the DOM and buying/selling when you beleive the bulls/bears are in control? Then exiting once you've made a pip or three?

I've googled searched a bit; but it's hard to wade through the BS.


----------



## Timmy

Here are 2 links that will hopefully help you start to understand what scalping is, without the b/s.  It is not necessary to agree with everything written in these articles to get an initial handle on scalping, its all part of the rich tapestry.

This here thread (the one you are reading) is an excellent resource too, TremblingHand's posts are invaluable.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/trading/05/scalping.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalping_(trading)


----------



## Naked shorts

RazzaDazzla said:


> would love to see this thread continue...




Would love to see another ASFer start a very similar thread. I would but im not that good.. yet. When I am i will definitely start one. Guru status will be mine!


----------



## Naked shorts

Naked shorts said:


> Would love to see another ASFer start a very similar thread.




Anyone willing to step up to the plate?


----------



## Largesse

yeh i totez like sel n buy n sh*t


----------



## stockGURU

Largesse said:


> yeh i totez like sel n buy n sh*t




Too much egg nog? :


----------



## Naked shorts

Largesse said:


> yeh i totez like sel n buy n sh*t




omg r u ful srs?

i guess your still waiting for that big blow off top ey large? 

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=509179#post509179


----------



## ThingyMajiggy

Naked shorts said:


> Anyone willing to step up to the plate?




Who else trades like this around here? 

TH, would you been interested in posting some video of your trading? Just a thought


----------



## RazzaDazzla

Video would be very interesting.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Timmy said:


> This here thread (the one you are reading) is an excellent resource too, TremblingHand's posts are invaluable.



Question specifically to Moderator Tim. 
You have recommended this thread as an excellent resource in relation to scalping. I have looked through this thread objectively for any resourceful scalping information/techniques/strategies/systems and am wondering if you know where it is?  Was it front running sizeable bids/asks on a Depth of Market ladder? The links were informative. Thanks.


----------



## Trembling Hand

Wysiwyg said:


> Question specifically to Moderator Tim.
> You have recommended this thread as an excellent resource in relation to scalping. I have looked through this thread objectively for any resourceful scalping information/techniques/strategies/systems and am wondering if you know where it is?  *Was it front running sizeable bids/asks on a Depth of Market ladder?* The links were informative. Thanks.




Clearly *w*hat *y*ou *s*ee *i*s *w*hat *y*ou *w*ant.

How can you 'objectively ' read this thread and then post the opposite of what I have said in it. 

I guess you can lead a horse to water but.....................


sometimes you should just shoot it. 

:horse:


----------



## Wysiwyg

I really don't understand what you say. I try to make sense of your sentences but they are mostly riddles to me. That is, they don't make sense. I do a lot of reading and rarely encounter communication like it! Thus directing the question to Tim.


----------



## Wysiwyg

Okay. I like to learn, as a matter of fact it is an insatiable desire. Below are responses from the original poster in relation to probes about the system being employed. 


> Mostly DOM with the odd glance at a 1 min chart.



Okay so we learned the system used mostly a L2 Depth of Market. 


> Did I ever say that looking at what is sitting in the order book was worth trading off???????????????



Really don't understand this response. No suggestion was made that it was. So the bid/ask volume in the order book is irrelevant? 


> People who claim to trade off the DOM use it as incorrectly as they use TA.



Are there any people out there who trade off the market depth able to confirm they use it incorrectly? 


> The only thing in the DOM that is of use is who is hitting the market and when. The run up today from 2:30 to 3:30 was a perfect example of someone printing the bars. People who think that a lot of sell orders sitting in the order book will cause the price to go down should notice that the opposite is more likely to happen. That 2:30 SPI run again perfect example there was at least twice as many offers than bids and we ran 50 points into it.



Okay so maybe scalp against volume in the bid or ask.   


> Or you can take the other side and flip as soon as the market whips back after one of the big boys push the market to hard.



And finally I think this sentence is the nothing to something scalping strategy.


----------



## tech/a

*From what Ive seen it really is something from nothing.*

Or appears that way.

People Like T/H can be likened to Tennis players/Boxers (In my view).
Lets take the tennis analogy.
Various markets are Roger Federer,Rafael Nedal,John Mc Enroe and so on.

If we step up to play these guys/markets we will generally be flattened.
But if your a T/H you'll be a formidable opponent as you will have observed your opponent and youll be able to stay in the rally and win multiple points but also be able to pull out of the rally and lose very few points.

At the end of the day your aim is to have more points than your opposition.

To be able to pass this skill on in written form is nigh impossible,but for those who have ever Boxed/Played competitive sport or traded we should be able to at least have glimpses of what T/H and those like him sees more clearly than we do.

Now I maybe well off the mark and I'm sure T/H will correct me if I am.

Sometimes your in sync
Other times your not.
Sometimes your daily equity curve looks fantastic.
Somethimes you wall away from it.
But the continual Equity curve "should" be showing
"Income > Expenditure"


----------



## SmellyTerror

Half the reason I find TH so helpful is that he's not TOO helpful. You need to go and think hard about what he's said, play around a bit, not just frown and nod and stroke ya beard. : 

Make a list of the stuff he's said that makes no sense to you. Play around, research, practice, then come back and see if anything does make sense. A lot of it only does when you've screwed up first. 

Anyway, here's what I've deduced  that could help answer your questions (and which may be so wrong it's not even wrong):



Wysiwyg said:


> Really don't understand this response. No suggestion was made that it was. So the bid/ask volume in the order book is irrelevant?




The important thing about the book is how it changes. Think of the stuff sitting there as terrain, but the _movement_ as the battle. As I said once before, Little Big Horn was a factor in the battle, but it was the injuns that Custer needed to worry about.

What's coming into the book, and where? What's hitting straight into the bid? What's being renewed, over and over? Are those bids two points below the spread pulling up stakes and being put back on LOWER, or are they pulling up stakes to hit the ask?

A lot of the volume in the book is a mile away, will not get touched for a week, and has been sitting there for a month. Not terribly relevant.



> Are there any people out there who trade off the market depth able to confirm they use it incorrectly?




I can. I've had maybe 100 hours experience. I don't know squat, and a lot of my "sure things" blow up in my face. All I get is the occasional hint of a pattern, a little thrill to think ah-HA! I see you, you bastard, shot-gunning little pebbles into the waves.

And then I'm wrong and I lose all my money, but it's still fun.

...and it's even wrong to _completely_ ignore what's been in the book for days. That stuff, like a hill in a battle, can make a difference. It's a little "resistance point" that the TA folk can't even see. When that big blockade that's been sitting there, unseen by the chartists, suddenly melts away with a corresponding number of fills, it's action time! Because if there's some clear space (small orders) behind it, there's a real chance that people hitting at market are going to blast the price right to the other side of the open area, before everyone comes to their senses and it blasts right back again. Couple of seconds, half-a-dozen ticks each way. Good wage.

On smaller stocks with _just enough _volume, I can be a big-boy. You can see the ask drying up, but it's all because they're falling down into the bid. Now the bid is getting eaten up by more orders hitting it - no-one is even looking at a price above the gap. It's going down, right? But that leaves the area from the ask and up a couple of points bare naked. $50,000 (spread into a few randomly sized orders placed a few moments apart - thank you IB - and day-traded, so (depending on platform) only requiring $12.5k free in your account, right down to zero upfront required) can blast right through that bare spot, right through an old calcified blockade, knock down three more more price points after that, and suddenly everyone's stops are being triggered, half the guys lurking under the bid (and these guys, although looking for a better price, would not be buying if they didn't expect the price to be heading up) crap themselves thinking they're missing the boat and try to jump on, and the poor numtpies hitting the price at market just push it harder. A couple more price points are likely to go down. 

Then you can be the first to leap for the life-boats (crash your holdings down onto the bid for a few seconds, then drop what's left in at-market to clean up the book before people freak out and pull their orders or the rest of the herd wake up and stampede), and even go short if there's any volume left after you've escaped, given you're about the only one who knows why the price just spiked...

Now I don't actually do that anymore - it's too risky to try while I'm still so green, and you sure as hell can't sim it - but I'm certain big-boys do the same in bigger markets.

And the lesson: the book LOOKED like it was going to fall. It looked certain. The bid was being hit hard, the near asks were giving up and falling down into it. Volume was coming in straight into the bid, reducing the total on that side, and the ask was still strong.

*Three seconds later it had shot up 9 ticks.*

So along with all those "rules" you're trying to come up with is the ability to see opportunities for someone else to do something underhanded. "What I am seeing is *not* a falling book, it's a set-up for a sledge-hammer, because of the following signs...".

That's one trick. How many tricks are there? How will you learn them? Whenever things go the opposite way you think, you MUST go back and try to work out why. Because a global rule like "scalp against the volume" is not going to teach you what the other bastards are doing.

People are trying to take your money. Devious arseholes are doing everything they can to trick you into making the wrong decision. Coming to the game armed with "always do this" doesn't work on this time-scale. I guess that's what TH is trying to say, with one millionth of the words.

If you're not swearing at your opponents, then (IMO) you're not doing it right. This 'aint a church picnic. People are trying to take your money.



> Okay so maybe scalp against volume in the bid or ask.
> And finally I think this sentence is the nothing to something scalping strategy.




As above.

A lot of the orders on the book are "dead". Their owners aren't looking. They might have been there for a week - hell, the owners may acutally _be_ dead! : They sure as hell aren't reacting to anything today.

The more active people get scared of a gap though, right? So it's actually comforting for a lot of people to see a fast move _that's filled on good volume right the way up_. Less "coming to their senses" panic as above. So a steady rise is one that'll generally go further. It's also one that's easier to be on - you don't need to see it before it jumps (like the blue-sky hill I was talking about above) - other factors can suggest this will be a decent shift (people who've been faffing about well down the book giving up and hitting the ask, increase in filled volume without a decrease in the lines under the bid, etc), so you can get on early and hold on, with lots of volume all around you to keep you safe. Nothing more comforting that seeing a fat bid line following you up.

So, and happy to be corrected, there's a million things going on with this stuff, which is why it's never in books. Too hard to explain. Impossible to even seriously try unless you're happy to write epic f'ing sagas like this. Better off playing the game yourself to get better. Then come back, and the cryptic remarks will make more sense.

No-one ever got good at tennis by reading.

---
Having said that, if TH ever writes Part 3, I'd read it.
:


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## nomore4s

SmellyTerror said:


> No-one ever got good at tennis by reading.




This is the best bit of your post SmellyTerror.

Too many people in this game think they can read a few books or posts on forums and understand and then try to replicate what TH can do. That is never going to happen.

Only way to learn & improve in this game and that is - Deliberate practice in a real market (even if it is on sim),trying real strategies & methods in the situations that you will be employing real money with.

Too few are willing to do the hard work and learn how to implement their own strategies & make them successful.


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## tech/a

> No-one ever got good at tennis by reading.




Really---depends on what your reading.

Ill bet Nadal and Co spend months 
"Reading" opponents!

Its the one they havent had enough experience in reading thats the "Outlier threat."


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## SmellyTerror

Yeah, I shouldn't overstate it. _Study_ is a huge factor, and I wouldn't write so much if I thought there was nothing to be achieved.

...but then get stuck in. That's it. Everything makes more sense when you do. 

Read. 
Frown. 
Play. 
Get **** kicked. 
Re-read. 
Slap forehead. 
Repeat.


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## nunthewiser

nomore4s said:


> Too few are willing to do the hard work and learn how to implement their own strategies & make them successful.





BINGO!

Hence all the posts in various forums on the various get rich quick schemes/trading courses/magic boxes/ magic systems etc etc.

Everyone wants to be a superstar but dont wanna sweep the floors first .


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## Wysiwyg

Humourous yarn that Smelly, thanks. 



> So, and happy to be corrected, there's a million things going on with this stuff, which is why it's never in books. Too hard to explain. Impossible to even seriously try unless you're happy to write epic f'ing sagas like this. Better off playing the game yourself to get better. Then come back, and the cryptic remarks will make more sense.
> 
> *No-one ever got good at tennis by reading.*



Oh I think theory is an integral part of any learning of cerebral dominated activities. Not much physical activity required in trading apart from mouse clicking. :

As far as reading the market order book goes, knowledge and experience is necessary. I have seen quoted many many years. I would not attempt a DOM scalping approach until a simulated situation is proficiently *cover*ed. 
Excerpt from camron.business.systems.


> This section examines volume. How the market behaves in response to supply.
> Individual components comprise, the volume of contracts traded, market depth, and supply and demand. Two main characteristics are: Selling volume and Buying volume. *Market depth displays only* *the "sitting" component, whether it be buying or selling*. Further characteristics are opening (entry) volume and closing (exit) volume. Volume is the umbilical cord that joins supply and demand together. When participants are enthusiastic, the volume traded will determine price. If unenthusiastic, price will determine volume.



Smelly Terror typed ....


> So along with all those "rules" you're trying to come up with is the ability to see opportunities for someone else to do something underhanded. "What I am seeing is not a falling book, it's a set-up for a sledge-hammer, because of the following signs...".



One cannot see the iceberg orders nor know the dummy bid is so. *Dare I say scalping on DOM is an educated guess* with a tight stop and a let run if you guess right. This is not too dissimilar to different trading over longer time frames.


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## tech/a

> One cannot see the iceberg orders nor know the dummy bid is so. Dare I say scalping on DOM is an educated guess with a tight stop and a let run if you guess right.




Thats the way I see it.


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## Trembling Hand

Until you guys can trade 500 times and can achieve an average loss = to brokerage (ie virtually no adverse move) with guesses you Muppets are not worthy of my time.


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## SmellyTerror

I'm not sure how people read a long and convoluted set up for a large "contrary" but *predictible *movement and conclude it's a guess...

The sledgehammer I described above... happens. It's rare, but I've seen it and even DONE it. The set-up lasts a few seconds, and unless you're looking for it you'll think it's the opposite of what it actually is. You'll go short and wonder why you just got slammed up into your stops. And then you'll see it taking off and go long, just to be slammed back down to where you started.

But if you *see it coming *you can go for a ride on someone else's ticket. And there's no way to see it without watching the DOM.

I'm not sure how that's a guess.

Knowing one trick means there's got to be more. A lot more. So it's pattern recognition combined with rat-cunning. And you don't get either without a lot of screen time and a healthy desire to win this game by kicking people's ****. Not numbers. People.

IMO.


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## tech/a

Trembling Hand said:


> Until you guys can trade 500 times and can achieve an average loss = to brokerage (ie virtually no adverse move) with guesses you Muppets are not worthy of my time.




Can I use an educated guess or just a plain bogan variety pure guess.
By the way
Why would I want to just cover brokerage with 500 trades?


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## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> By the way
> Why would I want to just cover brokerage with 500 trades?




Tech when your* losses average no more than brokerage *come back and talk.

Until then I'm not going to waste my time arguing with the blind.


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## tech/a

You've improved then?


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## SmellyTerror

Wouldn't making a profit, where the brokerage is already in the spread, count as "making more than brokerage"?

If I make $240 on a "bad" day, I will not cry.

...could be very wrong, but I'm genuinely confused now.


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## sammy84

Trembling Hand said:


> Tech when your* losses average no more than brokerage *come back and talk.
> 
> Until then I'm not going to waste my time arguing with the blind.




What about when you winners make your losses seem insignificant......Minimal losses seems like a pretty poor way to measure one's success.


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## Trembling Hand

sammy84 said:


> ......Minimal losses seems like a pretty poor way to measure one's success.




Not true. The muppets claim that I have no edge. If its anything its simple trade management, that is really tight stops and trail them if I luck out with a winner.

I would like to see anyone who can enter approx 500 times and average close to no adverse move without a HUGE edge. Not just a stop. We aren't talking 2 ATR stops here we are talking less than a tick loss per trade that goes against you including spread/brokerage etc.

And then getting better than 50% winners and make a huge % return. But the muppets will not accept that nor comment on it because they have their agenda and it hurts them too much to even think let alone acknowledge.


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## tech/a

I gotta be missing something.


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## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> I gotta be missing something.




No as usual you're being selective. Over all the trades on this thread the average loss was 2.6 points.

the brokerage per trade is 2 points. 

So the average move against me on bad trades was 0.6 points. Less than the minimum tick. I'd like to see someone demonstrate that with guesses.


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## tech/a

Trembling Hand said:


> No as usual you're being selective. Over all the trades on this thread the average loss was 2.6 points.
> 
> the brokerage per trade is 2 points.
> 
> So the average move against me on bad trades was 0.6 points. Less than the minimum tick. I'd like to see someone demonstrate that with guesses.




Average was around 3 if you add all together and divide out.
Each trade isnt $25 each way?

Your average win is 3.66 its only trade frequency which gives you a profit--scalping. This is your edge.

Income exceeds expenditure.


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## Trembling Hand

tech/a said:


> Average was around 3 if you add all together and divide out.
> Each trade isnt $25 each way?
> 
> Your average win is 3.66 its only trade frequency which gives you a profit--scalping. This is your edge.
> 
> Income exceeds expenditure.




trade started @ $5 a tick, went up to $50 a tick on the last day.

Average loss expressed in points was 2.678 including brokerage. excluding brokerage it was 0.678 points.


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## sammy84

Trembling Hand said:


> Not true. The muppets claim that I have no edge. If its anything its simple trade management, that is really tight stops and trail them if I luck out with a winner.
> 
> I would like to see anyone who can enter approx 500 times and average close to no adverse move without a HUGE edge. Not just a stop. We aren't talking 2 ATR stops here we are talking less than a tick loss per trade that goes against you including spread/brokerage etc.
> 
> And then getting better than 50% winners and make a huge % return. But the muppets will not accept that nor comment on it because they have their agenda and it hurts them too much to even think let alone acknowledge.




Apples and oranges. That is your edge. Just pointing out that those who have larger losses than brokerage aren't necessarily bad traders either. 

BTW I am not discrediting your method whatsoever. My key development area is spending more time/practice focusing on how the market moves (in a variety of scenarios).


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## bullbear39

This should probably be a personal message to TH, but what the heck, someone else may benefit from me putting it out there.

TH, I don't mind saying that I have much to learn from you. I'm increasingly frustrated with my trading - think I'm onto a winning strategy, just to see it all slip away time and time again. I'm a very active trader by nature (like you) but my equity curve is on life support (again). Lately, everytime I go to the table I give money back. Whilst I haven't lost a fortune due to better risk management learnt from Nick R, my equity is still going south. 

As distasteful as the term is to me, I have to start considering the possibility that I might actually be a gambler - not a trader. I have given my best since 2004 trying to get ahead in trading. But it's really not working. So I'm starting to reach out to those who are actually making a living from trading (full timers only) for some real guidance, heck maybe even mentoring. 

What I've always tried to do is to have a three pronged trading strategy.
a) Short term (scalping) - for my daily bread/ pay the bills etc
b) Mid term for 3-6 months for some larger cash injections
c) Sleeper strategy. Very long term, wait and see approach with penny stocks/ IPO etc

You've obviously nailed the first point so some questions for you if you would be so kind.

1. What platform/broker do you use for your CFD scalping? I suspect its IB like a lot of others here. It won't change my world, just curious.

2. In your CFD scalping, what exactly do you target that gives you the 2 pip spread? Different brokers name the same instruments differently, as you know. So what exactly is it called in your platform? Or do you use a few?

3. How have you been going with this lately? This thread seems to have  gone a bit quiet.

Thanks in advance


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## Gringotts Bank

bullbear, you should be able to tell that TH dropped off in profitability big time around his last 3 posts.  His whole tone changed.  It's like reading tape.

Still one of the best threads on this forum, and I'm going to go over it with a fine toothed comb one day soon and start a new thread on it.


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## nomore4s

Gringotts Bank said:


> bullbear, you should be able to tell that TH dropped off in profitability big time around his last 3 posts.  His whole tone changed.  It's like reading tape.
> 
> Still one of the best threads on this forum, and I'm going to go over it with a fine toothed comb one day soon and start a new thread on it.




Gringotts,

This thread was done as an example of what is possible by a very good trader but to clear up some points.

TH doesn't normally trade CFD's - he trades the proper futures markets through a broker like IB. After the last day's profit he posted up as far as I know he did not trade that CFD account again because the CFD provider froze him out.

Quite a few people seem to have problems differentiating between a CFD provider and a broker like IB that provides access to the actual futures markets. TH was only trading that account on the side, not as part of his normal daily trading activities.

I can also assure you his profitability did not drop off around his last 3 posts, I do know that he was trading his normal account as per usual.


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## prawn_86

Also, when CFD providers start losing too much, they widen spreads on certain accounts, hence why no more could be made using this system on this account


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## nomore4s

prawn_86 said:


> Also, when CFD providers start losing too much, they widen spreads on certain accounts, hence why no more could be made using this system on this account




They also delay your orders getting through their system which means when scalping like this your orders do not go through and you get continual re-quotes or messages saying this price is no longer available.


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## skyQuake

nomore4s said:


> They also delay your orders getting through their system which means when scalping like this your orders do not go through and you get continual re-quotes or messages saying this price is no longer available.




Looks like you're with IG 

They used to be coool


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## nomore4s

skyQuake said:


> Looks like you're with IG
> 
> They used to be coool




lol, used to be, but never really trade CFD's anymore though.


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## amb005

Hey Trembling Hand, or anyone else who uses IB to trade SPI, how do you combat the order confirmation they do now? Not having single click dealing really kills scalping, I dont want to have to get TT and pay an extra grand a month to use their ladder, surely there is some way around this? any help would be much appreciated


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## cutz

amb005 said:


> Hey Trembling Hand, or anyone else who uses IB to trade SPI, how do you combat the order confirmation they do now? Not having single click dealing really kills scalping, I dont want to have to get TT and pay an extra grand a month to use their ladder, surely there is some way around this? any help would be much appreciated





I don't scalp because I only trade options, but try arming booktrader (look in the top rh side), then when then order confirmation comes up (after placing order) check the "do not display message again" box.


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## nielsend

cutz said:


> I don't scalp because I only trade options, but try arming booktrader (look in the top rh side), then when then order confirmation comes up (after placing order) check the "do not display message again" box.




IB no longer provide the 'Armed' tick box on the booktrader screen. When placing orders via Booktrader a popup appears asking you to confirm the order. There's no way to override this function, which is bad news for scalpers. For FX you can use the FX Trader screen for direct orders to market. There's also no point rolling back to a previous 'TWS' version, as they won't be supported for much longer.
I spoke to IB, their reply is that it's due to regulatory changes and therefore a legal issue. If I was still trading the SPI I'd be looking elsewhere!


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## Trembling Hand

nielsend said:


> I spoke to IB, their reply is that it's due to regulatory changes and therefore a legal issue. If I was still trading the SPI I'd be looking elsewhere!




Its not IBs fault. TT holds the patent for 1 click trading in the price ladder and are forcing every company to pay either 0.10 USD per side or don't use their patent.

Lucky IB got away with it for as long as they did.


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## nielsend

Trembling Hand said:


> Its not IBs fault. TT holds the patent for 1 click trading in the price ladder and are forcing every company to pay either 0.10 USD per side or don't use their patent.
> 
> Lucky IB got away with it for as long as they did.




Can you elaborate on who 'TT' is, thanks.


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## Trembling Hand

nielsend said:


> Can you elaborate on who 'TT' is, thanks.




http://www.tradingtechnologies.com/

they invented the price ladder.


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## ThingyMajiggy

nielsend said:


> Can you elaborate on who 'TT' is, thanks.




bah, TH beat me to it


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## avion

Using Booktrader hotkeys still executes 'one click'...

(...hope i do not regret for posting this.)


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## Trembling Hand

Trembling Hand said:


> I have completely given up on it for the following reasons,
> 
> 1. SPI volatility has dried up.
> 2. CFD providers will not let you get any volume anymore. (So its a waste of time)
> 3. I'm concentrating on other Asian index futs where the size is close to unlimited  the swings are many and the scalping is worth the effort.
> 
> 
> But I want to make this clear because I have been contacted by a few newbies. As the SPI stands now with low volatility and a low amount of intraday swings its not the index to scalp. Certainly not with CFDs.
> 
> And I would say that just about rules out any scalping with CFDs in any market. As spreads on all other instruments are just to wide to get over jobbing along all day.
> *
> DON"T DO IT.*




Just want to bumb this post from 3 years ago.


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## Steve C

Trembling Hand said:


> Just want to bumb this post from 3 years ago.




This is some really great stuff - trembling hand are you still using this system?


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## CanOz

Steve C said:


> This is some really great stuff - trembling hand are you still using this system?






> I have completely given up on it for the following reasons,
> 
> 1. SPI volatility has dried up.
> 2. CFD providers will not let you get any volume anymore. (So its a waste of time)
> 3. I'm concentrating on other Asian index futs where the size is close to unlimited the swings are many and the scalping is worth the effort.




CanOz


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## tech/a

Steve C said:


> This is some really great stuff - trembling hand are you still using this system?






Trembling Hand said:


> Just want to bumb this post from 3 years ago.




I'm definitely going to re think becoming an Educator.

If you've ever wondered how they sell $15000 systems
Here is why!!!


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## Steve C

tech/a said:


> I'm definitely going to re think becoming an Educator.
> 
> If you've ever wondered how they sell $15000 systems
> Here is why!!!




Apologies- I read the first two pages of the thread at work outlining great results and posted without reading the rest.... lesson learned.


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## CanOz

Steve C said:


> Apologies- I read the first two pages of the thread at work outlining great results and posted without reading the rest.... lesson learned.




Every now and then i re-read this thread as i understand more and more of what Trembling Hand was trying to do when he was trading with the Depth of Market.

Always a point or two that i missed in the 'riddles' that i now understand...love it.


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## grahamg

TH,

Are you still tearing up the HSI??

I am checking out daytime markets to switch to from Bund and Tnote scalping.  SPI looks hopeless though could just be cause I am used to watching the Bund ladder. 

I have heard that HSI is good value though I can't bring up a DOM of it through my broker. Do you have any suggestions?  

Cheers,

Graham


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## grahamg

Btw I am not necessarily talking about scalping in your sense in this thread. I usually take about 20 spins in the morning session of Eurex / US - holding for a minute to halfa on avg depending on if I'm getting pantsed or not.  Though I just read a Paul Rotter interview (who doesn't scalp anymore) who says that if you were going to scalp - scalp the Asian indices oddly enough.


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## CanOz

skype with me monday graham and i'll fill you in on the hhi and hsi...


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## grahamg

CanOz said:


> skype with me monday graham and i'll fill you in on the hhi and hsi...




Thanks CanOz  talk Monday.


----------

