# RIP Gough Whitlam



## noco (21 October 2014)

May dear Gough rest in peace.


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## SirRumpole (21 October 2014)

Politics is a lot less colourful since he left it.

A big heart, and a big intellect. If he had used one of those a bit more he may have lasted a lot longer as PM.

Still, I am glad I was around when he was, he put Australia on the map in global affairs and created many reforms which last today.

RIP.


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## Tisme (21 October 2014)

Yes

he was an iconic Australian who lead the country in a colourful time of change from colonial forelocks to self governance.

Trade with China, Vietnam pullout, land rights, racial discrimination laws, double dissolution, giving Joh the irates, ....


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## noco (21 October 2014)

He certainly made a name for himself but the Clemlani affair was his downfall.

He wanted to "BUY BACK THE FARM" with money borrowed from the Arabs and attempted to by pass parliament to obtain it without approval.....At the time he had a hostile senate and would have had no chance of success.


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## SirRumpole (21 October 2014)

noco said:


> He certainly made a name for himself but the Clemlani affair was his downfall.
> 
> He wanted to "BUY BACK THE FARM" with money borrowed from the Arabs and attempted to by pass parliament to obtain it without approval.....At the time he had a hostile senate and would have had no chance of success.




Rex Connor and Jim Cairns were his downfall. He failed to put them in their places when he should have. Perhaps his compassion towards his colleagues clouded his judgement.


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## noco (21 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Rex Connor and Jim Cairns were his downfall. He failed to put them in their places when he should have. Perhaps his compassion towards his colleagues clouded his judgement.




But with all due respect, all those decision would have gone through caucus and cabinet...


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## Tisme (21 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Rex Connor and Jim Cairns were his downfall. He failed to put them in their places when he should have. Perhaps his compassion towards his colleagues clouded his judgement.




Always the danger of too long in the wilderness = too many wrongs to be righted in too short a time frame, with too little resource.

Shame Rudd didn't learn from Gough's mistakes.

Noco, Gough and O'Connor were the caucus and cabinet


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## galumay (21 October 2014)

lets try and avoid the petty politics this time, one of australia's few true statesmen has passed away, a man that helped drag australia out of the past into the future. A truly great Australian who stood above those around him  - not just literally either.

I had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of times and spending a bit of time with him in a non public situation and he was just such a warm, generous, humble and funny man.

We are the lucky country to have had a man of his calibre as PM and it will be a long time before we see another I suspect.


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## pixel (21 October 2014)

galumay said:


> lets try and *avoid the petty politics this time*, one of australia's few true statesmen has passed away, a man that helped drag australia out of the past into the future. A truly great Australian who stood above those around him  - not just literally either.
> 
> I had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of times and spending a bit of time with him in a non public situation and he was just such a warm, generous, humble and funny man.
> 
> We are the lucky country to have had a man of his calibre as PM and *it will be a long time before we see another* I suspect.




Amen to that, galumay
... and I envy you over the private meeting. I arrived too late in this lucky country; had to rely on reports, records, and history lessons to work out what happened, how and why. However, when I finally could call Australia Home, I did observe that an ever increasing number of "Locals" displayed a very open, friendly, and "contemporary" attitude in everyday life. Both to new arrivals and new ideas. For some, it took a little longer than for others; which makes it ever more plausible that the turn-around coincided with Gough Whitlam's Prime Ministership.


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## noco (21 October 2014)

galumay said:


> lets try and avoid the petty politics this time, one of australia's few true statesmen has passed away, a man that helped drag australia out of the past into the future. A truly great Australian who stood above those around him  - not just literally either.
> 
> I had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of times and spending a bit of time with him in a non public situation and he was just such a warm, generous, humble and funny man.
> 
> We are the lucky country to have had a man of his calibre as PM and it will be a long time before we see another I suspect.




 Personally, he was certainly a likeable bloke.


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## SirRumpole (21 October 2014)

After the drab nothingness of the Coalition parties up until his government, he made this country an enjoyable and interesting place to live in, possibly for the first time in our history. I hope it won't be the last.


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## Macquack (21 October 2014)

A great man, a great visionary.

In the short space of less than three years, Gough Whitlam embarked on a massive legislative reform program including :-

 - *introduced Medibank* a universal national health scheme 
 - established *formal diplomatic relations with China*
 - assumed responsibility for tertiary education from the states and *abolished tertiary fees*
 - introduced a *supporting benefit for single-parent families*; 
 - *abolished the death penalty *for federal crimes
 - *reduced the voting age* to 18 years;
 - abolished the last vestiges of the* White Australia Policy*
 - *introduced language programs *for non-English speaking Australians; 
 - *mandated equal opportunities for women *in Federal Government employment; 
 - *abolished conscription*
 - established the* Order of Australia*
 - introduced the policy of *Self-determination for Indigenous Australians*;
 - *advocated land rights *for Indigenous Australians
 - established *Legal Aid* - increased funding for the arts
 - introduced the *Trade Practices Act*.
 - gave *independence to Papua New Guinea*.

 Just some of Gough Whitlam's acheivements.

R.I.P. Gough.


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## IFocus (21 October 2014)

As described in the press there will be a book mark in Australian history of an Australia before Gough Whitlam and an Australia changed forever after his time as PM for the better.

His government went for 3 short years and yet set Australia on a course followed by consecutive governments from both sides of the political fence.


RIP Gough


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## noco (21 October 2014)

I wonder who will replace Gough as the Patron of the Fabian Society.........I guess Bob Hawke would be under consideration no doubt.


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## luutzu (21 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> A great man, a great visionary.
> 
> In the short space of less than three years, Gough Whitlam embarked on a massive legislative reform program including :-
> 
> ...




That's an incredible record of achievements.


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## Garpal Gumnut (21 October 2014)

IFocus said:


> As described in the press there will be a book mark in Australian history of an Australia before Gough Whitlam and an Australia changed forever after his time as PM for the better.
> 
> His government went for 3 short years and yet set Australia on a course followed by consecutive governments from both sides of the political fence.
> 
> ...




I would agree, IFocus.

We are fortunate in Australia that we throw up giants every now and then in all spheres, and had EGW amongst us, as a giant, in politics.

Gough was singular and though not of my ilk, was understandable and made significant changes to Australia.

RIP and Vale a Great Australian. 

E.Gough Whitlam. 

gg


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## Purple XS2 (22 October 2014)

See ya, Gough.

Thanks for everything, including

B.A./LL.B. (Melb) 1976 / 83

Larry / Purple XS2


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## chiff (22 October 2014)

noco said:


> I wonder who will replace Gough as the Patron of the Fabian Society.........I guess Bob Hawke would be under consideration no doubt.




I remember Don Dunstan was a member of the Fabian society...a great reformer in SA.
Noco -in what way does this society oppose human rights,as you accused?I would have thought that the opposite was true.
Where do you get your information from?


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## pixel (22 October 2014)

On behalf of all self-respecting West Australians, I apologise unreservedly for our Premier's insensitive, ill-timed, ungracious remarks. History will be the Judge when it lists Great Australian Statesmen.


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## bunyip (22 October 2014)

Gough Whitlam was a visionary and a reformist, a decent human being and a loyal husband and family man who never lowered himself to the womanising, hard-drinking, foul-mouthed behavior that characterized another Labor PM a decade or so later.
But as WA Premier Colin Barnett pointed out, Whitlam wasn’t so great when you consider that he led an incompetent government. The Australian public was well aware of this, hence Whitlam’s landslide defeat in the 1975 federal election despite a substantial sympathy vote from people outraged at his sacking by Governor General John Kerr.

Love him or loathe him, ‘Comrade’ Whitlam won’t be forgotten in a hurry.


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## drsmith (22 October 2014)

The SMH today leads its online federal politics page today with a 12-article tribute.


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## Calliope (22 October 2014)

pixel said:


> On behalf of all self-respecting West Australians, I apologise unreservedly for our Premier's insensitive, ill-timed, ungracious remarks. *History will be the Judge* when it lists Great Australian Statesmen.




It's called historical revisionism.



> But sentimentality, and the overwhelming power of the Labor myth-making machine, should not blind us to the central fact of Whitlam: he was the worst prime minister in our history.
> 
> This is true in economic policy, foreign policy and processes of government. After three years in office, he lost the 1975 election by the greatest electoral landslide in Australian political history.
> 
> ...




Read more;
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...on-gough-whitlam/story-fnpxuhqd-1227097838305


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## noco (22 October 2014)

chiff said:


> I remember Don Dunstan was a member of the Fabian society...a great reformer in SA.
> Noco -in what way does this society oppose human rights,as you accused?I would have thought that the opposite was true.
> Where do you get your information from?




With all due respects to the late Gough Whitlam, this not the appropriate thread to answer your question and I therefore should direct you to the thread which will cover your question.....Communism : It is not dead and buried.

There are lots of links that you can refer to on that subject.


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## drsmith (22 October 2014)

Calliope said:


> It's called historical revisionism.
> 
> Read more;
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...on-gough-whitlam/story-fnpxuhqd-1227097838305



Gough Whitlam in 2PP terms led federal Labor to two of its worst three elections defeats since 1937.

Julia Gillard had the potential to do worse last year but as we all remember, Kevin Rudd was restored to the leadership in the lead up to the election to prevent that fate. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Australia


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## Tisme (22 October 2014)

pixel said:


> On behalf of all self-respecting West Australians, I apologise unreservedly for our Premier's insensitive, ill-timed, ungracious remarks. History will be the Judge when it lists Great Australian Statesmen.




I thought that was a low act too and just shows the depth of hate/spite that Paul Keating spoke about last night. 

Barnett is merely a premier of a state and should confine his comments to living people who can defend themselves and to people of his own calibre. I bet his mother schooled him basic politeness and never speak ill of or profit from the dead.


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## Tisme (22 October 2014)

Here's a take from an IPA article prior to the last election. The IPA is widely regarded as a LNP think tank:

_If Tony Abbott wants to leave a lasting impact - and secure his place in history - he needs to take his inspiration from Australia's most left-wing prime minister.

No prime minister changed Australia more than Gough Whitlam. The key is that he did it in less than three years. In a flurry of frantic activity, Whitlam established universal healthcare, effectively nationalised higher education with free tuition, and massively increased public sector salaries. He more than doubled the size of cabinet from 12 ministers to 27.

He enacted an ambitious cultural agenda that continues to shape Australia to this day. In just three years, Australia was given a new national anthem, ditched the British honours system, and abolished the death penalty and national service. He was the first Australian prime minister to visit communist China and he granted independence to Papua New Guinea. Whitlam also passed the Racial Discrimination Act. He introduced no-fault divorce.

Perhaps his most lasting legacy has been the increase in the size of government he bequeathed to Australia. When Whitlam took office in 1972, government spending as a percentage of GDP was just 19 per cent. When he left office it had soared to almost 24 per cent.

Virtually none of Whitlam's signature reforms were repealed by the Fraser government. The size of the federal government never fell back to what it was before Whitlam. Medicare remains. The Racial Discrimination Act - rightly described by the Liberal Senator Ivor Greenwood in 1975 as ‘repugnant to the rule of law and to freedom of speech' - remains.

It wasn't as if this was because they were uncontroversial. The Liberal opposition bitterly fought many of Whitlam's proposals. And it wasn't as if the Fraser government lacked a mandate or a majority to repeal them. After the 1975 election, in which he earned a 7.4 per cent two-party preferred swing, Fraser held 91 seats out of 127 in the House of Representatives and a Senate majority.

_


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## drsmith (22 October 2014)

What did Malcolm Fraser do in office other than say life wasn't meant to be easy ?

His latter years have shown his true political colours.



> Perhaps his most lasting legacy has been the increase in the size of government he bequeathed to Australia. When Whitlam took office in 1972, government spending as a percentage of GDP was just 19 per cent. When he left office it had soared to almost 24 per cent.



The crux of the problem with Gough. That has to be paid for.

Social reform is one thing but it has to be balanced against budget constraints. That's something neither Gough or the Labor party of today understands. 

The Hawke/Keating government though was better in that regard.


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## burglar (22 October 2014)

pixel said:


> On behalf of all self-respecting West Australians, I apologise unreservedly for our Premier's insensitive, ill-timed, ungracious remarks. History will be the Judge when it lists Great Australian Statesmen.




I concur!
Your Premier will not make that list.


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## chiff (22 October 2014)

noco said:


> With all due respects to the late Gough Whitlam, this not the appropriate thread to answer your question and I therefore should direct you to the thread which will cover your question.....Communism : It is not dead and buried.
> 
> There are lots of links that you can refer to on that subject.




You are dead right Noco....so why talk about the Fabians on this thread?


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## noco (22 October 2014)

chiff said:


> You are dead right Noco....so why talk about the Fabians on this thread?




Because Gough Whitlam was there patron for many years and now that he is deceased, a new patron will have to be appointed....the show must go on.

I asked a valid question and hoped I may have received some suggestions.

I suggested Bob Hawke......or maybe Julia Gillrad.

Who do you suggest or believe would be suited for the honour of being patron of the Fabian Society?


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## orr (22 October 2014)

In the dying months of the William McMahon administration a boat load of refugees appeared on board a Norwegian registered vessel off Xmas island ...
Doesn't bear thinking about does it....

I can't remember the latin expression Whitlam used, but in english translation it finished ...'_then we emerged and saw the stars'_ 

When will we see his like again. 
To his list of achievements may I add; on his 9th day in office he removed the sales tax on tampons.

See noco he even cared about people like you...


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## Calliope (22 October 2014)

The Adventures of Edward Gough Whitlam.



http://whitlamdismissal.com/1973/12...ibbon-adventures-of-edward-gough-whitlam.html


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## SirRumpole (22 October 2014)

noco said:


> Who do you suggest or believe would be suited for the honour of being patron of the Fabian Society?




I think you should do it yourself noco, as you obviously know more about Fabians than anyone else.


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## noco (22 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I think you should do it yourself noco, as you obviously know more about Fabians than anyone else.




I have already made a suggestion who should be the next patron of the Fabian Society now Gough is deceased.

Bob Hawke or Julia Gillrad ...they are both members of the Fabians and they would know more about the organization than I would.

Who do you suggest would make a good patron Rumpy?.....are you eligible?

I am not sure what qualifications are required to become the Patron of the Fabian Society.


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## SirRumpole (22 October 2014)

noco said:


> I have already made a suggestion who should be the next patron of the Fabian Society now Gough is deceased.
> 
> Bob Hawke or Julia Gillrad ...they are both members of the Fabians and they would know more about the organization than I would.
> 
> ...




It's just a pity you decided to sully a tribute to a great man with this Fabian nonsense.


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## noco (22 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> It's just a pity you decided to sully a tribute to a great man with this Fabian nonsense.




Why is it nonsense?

Gough was a dedicated Fabian...I can't see anything wrong with that......it is all in the interest of the Fabians and the Labor Party.

I really do want to know what happens now.

Why are you so upset about me talking about the Fabians?


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## burglar (22 October 2014)

orr said:


> ... To his list of achievements may I add; ...





As a railway man of some 25 years (1974 - 1999) I would like to add to his list.

He had wanted a national rail system.
When he found it was impossible to legislate, 
he offered monies to each System to join the Commonwealth Railways.
At the time it ran from Port Pirie!? SA to West Parkeston in WA and Alice Springs in NT.

Don Dunstan saw the wisdom and sold the South Australian Railways (excluding metro).
Tasmania sold their struggling system too.

The dream was killed in the nineties.


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## luutzu (22 October 2014)

noco said:


> Why is it nonsense?
> 
> Gough was a dedicated Fabian...I can't see anything wrong with that......it is all in the interest of the Fabians and the Labor Party.
> 
> ...




If Mr. Whitlam is a good man, one of our great leaders, one whose mere three years in office significantly transform our entire nation (for the better in my opinion).. and from the little I just read about his life and achievements he is that and more... If he is also a Fabian, doesn't that mean being a Fabian isn't such a bad thing?

Capitalism without socialist principles is a terrible thing.


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## luutzu (22 October 2014)

burglar said:


> As a railway man of some 25 years (1974 - 1999) I would like to add to his list.
> 
> He had wanted a national rail system.
> When he found it was impossible to legislate,
> ...




What did you do in the rail industry? I've made a few friends there.


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## pixel (22 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> If Mr. Whitlam is a good man, one of our great leaders, one whose mere three years in office significantly transform our entire nation (for the better in my opinion).. and from the little I just read about his life and achievements he is that and more...* If he is also a Fabian, doesn't that mean being a Fabian isn't such a bad thing?*
> 
> Capitalism without socialist principles is a terrible thing.




You got that absolutely right, luutzu

I'd change only one word in your last statement:
*Capitalism without social principles is a terrible thing.*

The Fabian label seems to be used by many as if it were a disgraceful thing; okay, the principles of social humanism, equality, and progressive ideas may not appeal to everybody. They are especially anathema to classists - my tag for people who claim superiority as a birthright based on ancestry, money, and school ties, rather than respect earned by personal effort and merit. 
However, when I Google "fabian society" and read specifically the Wiki on the Australian grouping, I find their aims match perfectly with Gough Whitlam's personal ideals:


> The Australian Fabians' Statement of Purpose states:[4]
> 
> Australian Fabians promote the common good and foster the advance of *social democracy* in Australia through *reasoned debate* by:
> 
> ...



Key words are highlighted by me.


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## luutzu (22 October 2014)

pixel said:


> You got that absolutely right, luutzu
> 
> I'd change only one word in your last statement:
> *Capitalism without social principles is a terrible thing.*
> ...




True. 

I might sign up one day, sounds like the kind of aims we all should strive for.

Another word that's been hijacked in Australia is "Liberal".


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## Knobby22 (23 October 2014)

A breath of fresh air was desparately needed and Gough gave us that but he made way too many mistakes.
In particular he caused massive inflation and high unemployment. 

He rushed the independance of New Guinea which still hurts them today.

Thatcher hadn't yet happened so you could understand he was in the English world view for economics at the time.

Bolt actually argues the case well (he must have had help).

Gough could have been great but he failed. We were lucky that Fraser kept the better changes.

Hawke was a far greater PM than Whitlam ever was.

Whitlam's government did many good things but ultimately failed.

I remember the shock of his sacking even though I was a young boy at the time.


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## bunyip (23 October 2014)

pixel said:


> On behalf of all self-respecting West Australians, I apologise unreservedly for our Premier's insensitive, ill-timed, ungracious remarks. History will be the Judge when it lists Great Australian Statesmen.



No need to apologize for Barnett, Pixel – he was just being forthright and truthful, nothing wrong with that. The passing of a public figure like Whitlam is no reason to focus only on his worthwhile achievements while ignoring his shortcomings and failures.
And believe me, Whitlam had plenty of failures and shortcomings. He was widely regarded as the most incompetent PM in Australia’s history - the woeful track record of his government supports this view.
Having said that, in the interests of being fair-minded I’ve given him credit where credit was due for some of the reforms he introduced. But let’s not condemn or criticize those who tell the other side of the Whitlam story as well.



Tisme said:


> I thought that was a low act too and just shows the depth of hate/spite that Paul Keating spoke about last night.
> 
> Barnett is merely a premier of a state and should confine his comments to living people who can defend themselves and to people of his own calibre. I bet his mother schooled him basic politeness and never speak ill of or profit from the dead.



Rubbish – it wasn't a low act for Colin Barnett to speak truthfully. I don’t go along with the view that we should shower only praise on someone when he dies. I say give both praise and criticism where they’re due. In my opinion Whitlam deserves both.


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## SirRumpole (23 October 2014)

bunyip said:


> Rubbish – it wasn't a low act for Colin Barnett to speak truthfully. I don’t go along with the view that we should shower only praise on someone when he dies. I say give both praise and criticism where they’re due. In my opinion Whitlam deserves both.




I noted on other forums that there was criticism from the Conservatives that some had dared to cast light on the failings of Margaret Thatcher after she died. As long as things are kept in perspective.

Of course Whitlam had his failings, few if any politicians are saints, but Whitlam certainly made many reforms that people have reason to be grateful for. Free university education for one. There are probably more than a few people on this forum that took advantage of that, and a few more who are grateful that Whitlam ended conscription and got us out of Vietnam.

Compared to Thatcher, Whitlam erred on the side of libertarianism and freedom, the arts and universal health care, and not the heel of government pressing on the ordinary citizen like Thatcher did.


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## Tisme (23 October 2014)

pixel said:


> .. They are especially anathema to classists - my tag for people who claim superiority as a birthright based on ancestry, money, and school ties, rather than respect earned by personal effort and merit.
> ...




There is that large portion of the population who should vote Labor for economic reasons, but give pledge to the LNP:- The Liberal Laborites. They presumably vote in allegiance to their moral code rather than self interest. 

Questioning someone's ambitions, morals and ethics is a useless exercise and the typical cynical hard Labor follower would presumably wonder why a pauper could be duped into thinking he is a prince. I don't think it's a wannabe condition, but a sub conscious desire. Menzies tapped into that mindset and played his followers well.

The poncey types you mentioned will always allow their moral compass to move further away from true north if it means status and wealth are less imperilled.


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## Tisme (23 October 2014)

bunyip said:


> Rubbish – it wasn't a low act for Colin Barnett to speak truthfully. I don’t go along with the view that we should shower only praise on someone when he dies. I say give both praise and criticism where they’re due. In my opinion Whitlam deserves both.




There is no law that says anyone must air opinions at the expense of others. Let's hope no one puts the post mortem boot in on anyone here and the consequential severe hurt it causes their family and friends. In death, praise costs nothing, silence costs nothing, but criticism stains both parties at the expense of decency.


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## Julia (23 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Whitlam ended conscription and got us out of Vietnam.



I wasn't living in Australia while Whitlam was PM.  Since his death I've read and heard conflicting statements about who was responsible for Australian troops being withdrawn from Vietnam.  Some say Whitlam and some McMahon.

Looking it up on the Australian War Memorial, it seems to indicate McMahon made the decision to start extracting the troops, but the last of them came back while Whitlam was PM.

Any comments on this?


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## SirRumpole (23 October 2014)

Julia said:


> I wasn't living in Australia while Whitlam was PM.  Since his death I've read and heard conflicting statements about who was responsible for Australian troops being withdrawn from Vietnam.  Some say Whitlam and some McMahon.
> 
> Looking it up on the Australian War Memorial, it seems to indicate McMahon made the decision to start extracting the troops, but the last of them came back while Whitlam was PM.
> 
> Any comments on this?




According to this,

https://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/vietnam/

You are correct. Perhaps I should have pointed more to the ending of conscription which was a decision by Whitlam.


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## burglar (23 October 2014)

luutzu said:


> What did you do in the rail industry? I've made a few friends there.




DCF's

Did I know Bluey Rogers?
Yes, everyone knows Bluey Rogers!


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## bunyip (23 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> There is no law that says anyone must air opinions at the expense of others.



True. And there’s no law that says you’re not allowed to be forthright and honest in your assessment of someone’s performance in public life, either, just because they've passed away. Whitlam didn’t hold back in giving Sir John Kerr a final serve upon his death.
There’s nothing wrong with giving both credit and criticism where both are warranted, as they were in Whitlam’s case.


Tisme said:


> In death, praise costs nothing, silence costs nothing, but criticism stains both parties at the expense of decency.



 Nobody stains themselves by being honest as long as any criticism they make is fair. Do we stain ourselves by criticizing Adolf Hitler or Suddam Hussein now that they’re dead? Of course we don’t.


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## bunyip (23 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> I noted on other forums that there was criticism from the Conservatives that some had dared to cast light on the failings of Margaret Thatcher after she died. As long as things are kept in perspective.




Yes, I thought the ‘_how dare you criticize Margaret Thatcher’_ attitude was a bit rich. Like anyone, Margie had both her faults and her virtues, and there was nothing wrong in analyzing both when she passed away, or for that matter while she was still alive.


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## IFocus (23 October 2014)

There has been some outstanding writing about Gough after his passing

If you are interested this is a really good read from those close to him

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...emembered-towering-legacy-australian-politics

Having lived through the dismissal David Marr's piece  is  on the money. I always have a laugh when Fraser is accused of being left wing. He was with out doubt the most ruthless right wing born to rule PM we will ever see far harder than Abbott.


And of course Gough Whitlam will always have his critics generally small people at the fringes his main opponents of the day have recognised his contribution to Australia. Also interesting hearing how humble and good company he was I never thought that would be the case. 

Whitlam's memory was demonised by conservatives to excuse his dismissal

The constitutional crisis of 1975 is a reminder of the lengths to which politicians on the right will go in the pursuit of power



> Scarcely any constitutional lawyers left alive applaud Sir John Kerr for what he did to the Labor prime minister on 11 November that year. Not all the plotters are dead. From time to time fresh details emerge of the outrages planned behind closed doors by Kerr and his circle. But the verdict of both the law and history has been savage: there was no justification for the sacking of Whitlam.
> 
> The many mistakes of his government were not for the governor general to correct. The electorate would do that in good time. But the opposition was impatient. A mighty panic was running in Australia. The fate of the nation was said to be at stake. The newspapers of all the proprietors were urging vice-regal intervention.




http://www.theguardian.com/australi...ised-by-conservatives-to-excuse-his-dismissal


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## Julia (23 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> According to this,
> 
> https://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/vietnam/
> 
> You are correct. Perhaps I should have pointed more to the ending of conscription which was a decision by Whitlam.



Thank you, Rumpole.  That was certainly my conclusion after reading several links to the question.

It seems history is so readily rewritten after the event with almost every account I've read about the late Mr Whitlam according him credit for the decision to bring Australian troops home.


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## noco (23 October 2014)

Julia said:


> Thank you, Rumpole.  That was certainly my conclusion after reading several links to the question.
> 
> It seems history is so readily rewritten after the event with almost every account I've read about the late Mr Whitlam according him credit for the decision to bring Australian troops home.





Here are more contradictions by Greg Sheridan over the ABC reporting. 


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/..._whitlams_achievements_miraculously_increase/


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## Logique (24 October 2014)

Plenty of hagiographies being written, but that's only to be expected.

In the popular press 'The Greatest Living Australian' - who is next?  It would sit comfortably with either John Howard or Bob Hawke, much to Paul Keating's chagrin. 

I think Whitlam's greatest achievements were:

i) universal health care 
ii) universal education
iii) eclipsing the unionist rump of old Labor

On the other side of the ledger:

i) not brilliant on East Timor, something his PM successors had to clean up
ii) not brilliant on fiscal management. As much as then GG John Kerr was demonized over the 1975 sacking, at that time a political circuit-breaker was very much needed.

Vale Gough Whitlam.


----------



## noco (24 October 2014)

Logique said:


> Plenty of hagiographies being written, but that's only to be expected.
> 
> In the popular press 'The Greatest Living Australian' - who is next?  It would sit comfortably with either John Howard or Bob Hawke, much to Paul Keating's chagrin.
> 
> ...




Gough was a good man in bringing in reforms but he forgot one thing, they all cost money....Something all Labor Governments never seem to understand.


----------



## Tisme (24 October 2014)

As one rusted on Liberal journo wrote of Oz before Whitlam: "a world of comfortable expectations and certainty built on an unquestioned authority"....which wasn't what he wanted for his family nor millions of others too.

I remember the beige, drone society which we are lucky was not conserved. The Sneddens of the world would have continued to parade us to the world as a backwater dependency of the British Empire, tugging on Uncle Sam's gun holster.


----------



## drsmith (24 October 2014)

IFocus said:


> I always have a laugh when Fraser is accused of being left wing. He was with out doubt the most ruthless right wing born to rule PM we will ever see far harder than Abbott.




Wikipedia,



> Fraser quickly dismantled some of the programs of the Labor government, such as the Ministry of the Media, and he made major changes to the universal health insurance system Medibank. *He initially maintained Whitlam's real level of tax and spending, but real per-person tax and spending soon began to increase.* He did manage to rein in inflation which had soared under Whitlam. His so-called "Razor Gang"[10] implemented stringent budget cuts across many areas of the Commonwealth Public Sector, including the ABC.




In other words, the point came where he had to manage Withlam's fiscal legacy.

My bolds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Fraser


----------



## Tisme (24 October 2014)

As Fraser states, the left ain't the left and the right ain't the same right anymore.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...his-friend-gough-whitlam-20141021-119a5d.html


----------



## Knobby22 (24 October 2014)

There's a good horse to back for Gough fans in the race before the Cox Plate.
The horse is called "It's Tyme"


----------



## bunyip (24 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> As one rusted on Liberal journo wrote of Oz before Whitlam: "a world of comfortable expectations and certainty built on an unquestioned authority"....which wasn't what he wanted for his family nor millions of others too.




And after experiencing the incompetent shemozzle that was the Whitlam government, chances are that like the overwhelming majority of Australians he decided that ‘Whitlamism’ wasn’t what he wanted either.


----------



## Macquack (24 October 2014)

bunyip said:


> And after experiencing the incompetent shemozzle that was the Whitlam government, chances are that like the overwhelming majority of Australians he decided that ‘Whitlamism’ wasn’t what he wanted either.




Funny how the "incompetent shemozzle that was the Whitlam government" set up Australia for what it is today.

 My father, a diehard labor man said of Gough Whitlam, the only thing he did wrong was he did too much to quickly.


----------



## noco (24 October 2014)

Macquack said:


> Funny how the "incompetent shemozzle that was the Whitlam government" set up Australia for what it is today.
> 
> My father, a diehard labor man said of Gough Whitlam, the only thing he did wrong was he did too much to quickly.




Yeah and he did not work out how he was going to pay for all his hare brain schemes except to borrow through the back door from that Arab Clemlani and that was his down fall.


----------



## drsmith (25 October 2014)

The Australian's Paul Kelly,



> The more important story, however, is that Labor drew the correct conclusions from Whitlam’s failures: that it must transform its culture to become the party of economic management superiority (Hayden’s mantra as leader); that it had to become a tougher, more competent party in office; that it must use its ties with unions and win the support of capital; that it should limit government benefits via means testing; that it should never again allow the conservative parties to use the Constitution to destroy a Labor government; and that its internal processes must strengthen the cabinet against the caucus…
> 
> The Hayden-Hawke-Keating generation with colleagues such as John Button, Peter Walsh and John Dawkins stuck by these changes. They had the brains and courage to grasp where Gough had gone wrong, announce the problems and fix them…
> 
> ...




http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...comments/labor_cheering_the_worst_of_whitlam/


----------



## noco (25 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> The Australian's Paul Kelly,
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...comments/labor_cheering_the_worst_of_whitlam/




This has been well known for years,  but it is a fact that the rusted on Labor supporters will never accept.

Even in the current Green/Labor opposition, it is riddled with dual members of the Fabian Society which is  front for communism also known as the Social Democrats.



WAS the Whitlam government of 1972 to 1975 a threat to Australian national security?

*Consider some of the bald facts. The Whitlam government nearly destroyed the Australian alliance with the US; it contained among its number dual members of the Labor Party and, secretly, the Communist Party; it earned the contempt of significant Asian leaders such as Lee Kuan Yew; it supported a communist victory in Vietnam, and betrayed and abandoned those Vietnamese who had worked for the Australian embassy and for Australian intelligence agencies during the Vietnam War;* it frequently, though without any factual basis, alleged political conspiracy on the part of Australia’s intelligence agencies; and in a bizarre episode completely unique in Australian history, it used the commonwealth police to conduct a raid on ASIO headquarters in search of damning information that did not exist.

And, worst of all, Gough Whitlam authorised a secret mission to get election funds for the ALP, to be paid into what was known as the leader’s slush fund, from the Iraqi Baath Socialist Party dictatorship in Baghdad, which was even then dominated by Saddam Hussein.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (25 October 2014)

noco said:


> This has been well known for years,  but it is a fact that the rusted on Labor supporters will never accept.
> 
> Even in the current Green/Labor opposition, it is riddled with dual members of the Fabian Society which is  front for communism also known as the Social Democrats.
> 
> ...




There is no doubt Whitlam was an Economic Muppet.

Had he won another 2 terms Australia would still be a basket case, paying off debt.

Australia in 1969-72 was an inward looking, incestuous nation. As were may other nations.

Whitlam was fortunate in that he had a good jingle "Its Time" and a good time in which to ride in to power. Hitler, Pol Pot, Thatcher, Howard and Obama did similar.

It has little to do do with policies, beliefs or capability.

I reckon he was a dunce.

gg


----------



## bunyip (27 October 2014)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> There is no doubt Whitlam was an Economic Muppet.
> 
> Had he won another 2 terms Australia would still be a basket case, paying off debt.
> 
> ...




I reckon Macquack’s dear ol’ Labor diehard dad would disagree with you there, GG!




Macquack said:


> My father, a diehard labor man said of Gough Whitlam, the only thing he did wrong was he did too much to quickly.




The Bolt Report yesterday gave a very good review of the Whitlam government, with former ALP politician Michael Costa describing it as ‘incompetent’ and ‘shambolic’, among other things. 
The ABC also copped a serve for their swooning and highly inaccurate praise of the Whitlam government.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 October 2014)

Good article by Ian Verander that argues the case that Gough wasn't as bad with the economy as established wisdom states. I think his record would have looked a lot worse though if he hadn't been sacked.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-27/verrender-think-whitlam-ruined-our-economy-think-again/5842866

Also, I didn't realise Gough gave us 4 weeks of leave. It was only 3 before him.


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2014)

noco said:


> Yeah and he did not work out how he was going to pay for all his hare brain schemes except to borrow through the back door from that Arab Clemlani and that was his down fall.




I know you like to high horse about Khemlani, but do you really know the story about why he was in Oz, how the Liberal Party were involved, how the spy agencies acted and for who, how much that was published was true?

If you do your homework, you may find your venerated party was not all that clean handed.

You may also like to have a look at how we paid contractors and suppliers for the Snowy Mountain scheme, the Harbour Bridge, The Kalgoorlie pipeline, et al and what where that money eventually ended up.


----------



## noco (27 October 2014)

Tisme said:


> I know you like to high horse about Khemlani, but do you really know the story about why he was in Oz, how the Liberal Party were involved, how the spy agencies acted and for who, how much that was published was true?
> 
> If you do your homework, you may find your venerated party was not all that clean handed.
> 
> You may also like to have a look at how we paid contractors and suppliers for the Snowy Mountain scheme, the Harbour Bridge, The Kalgoorlie pipeline, et al and what where that money eventually ended up.





Got some links to prove your point ?


----------



## noco (27 October 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> Good article by Ian Verander that argues the case that Gough wasn't as bad with the economy as established wisdom states. I think his record would have looked a lot worse though if he hadn't been sacked.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-27/verrender-think-whitlam-ruined-our-economy-think-again/5842866
> 
> Also, I didn't realise Gough gave us 4 weeks of leave. It was only 3 before him.




Gough and his communist dominated trade union comrades gave us a lot more than 4 weeks annual leave and now our industries are suffering today because of it.......all added to cost of manufacturing....is it any wonder so many have gone overseas....is it any wonder unemployment is rising.......but typical of the unions, they now expect the Government to subsidize industry with tax payers money.......it is all the fault of Abbott right?

Go and blame  those commie unions and tell them it is all their fault including that economic dunce, the late Gough Whitlam.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 October 2014)

noco said:


> Gough and his communist dominated trade union comrades gave us a lot more than 4 weeks annual leave and now our industries are suffering today because of it.......all added to cost of manufacturing....is it any wonder so many have gone overseas....is it any wonder unemployment is rising.......but typical of the unions, they now expect the Government to subsidize industry with tax payers money.......it is all the fault of Abbott right?
> 
> Go and blame  those commie unions and tell them it is all their fault including that economic dunce, the late Gough Whitlam.




Oh shame, four weeks annual leave, the horror, the horror.

At last we had a government that realised that people are more than just an economic input, and that they have a life that they want to enjoy.

And for all your bs about communism, it's the communists that enforce labor, do away with trade unions, and make people slaves to their ideology. Whitlam at least gave people some freedom and time to enjoy life, after the Liberal enforced corporate slavery which we now seem to be returning to.


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2014)

noco said:


> Got some links to prove your point ?




Well that would be my last source of proof, but I'm sure you will be able to piece together some information. Otherwise maybe someone in the know or even govt archives.

It makes no difference to me what people want to believe in this matter, but I think it should be predicated on all the facts at hand on the particular subject before vilifying Gough's character. 

You might like to read up on how two opposition front benchers, Bob Ellicott and one Mr John Howard rifled through Khemlani's documents (while unknown enforcers kept Khemlani subdued) and how the perverted information  amazingly became the domain of a  bloke named Wiley Francher who just happened to be a protected species under the then Qld Premier's police state fiefdom .... not that that premier was a laughing stock of the nation and later the subject of gravitas law breaking or anything.


----------



## luutzu (27 October 2014)

noco said:


> Gough and his communist dominated trade union comrades gave us a lot more than 4 weeks annual leave and now our industries are suffering today because of it.......all added to cost of manufacturing....is it any wonder so many have gone overseas....is it any wonder unemployment is rising.......but typical of the unions, they now expect the Government to subsidize industry with tax payers money.......it is all the fault of Abbott right?
> 
> Go and blame  those commie unions and tell them it is all their fault including that economic dunce, the late Gough Whitlam.


----------



## drsmith (27 October 2014)

What was the basis of university scholarships offered pre-Whitlam ?

Wikipedia is a bit thin on the detail.



> In 1940, the Curtin Labor Government saw a need for the country to increase the number of university graduates and for more civil and military research. To do this, it dramatically increased the number of scholarships it offered to enter university and allowed women to apply for these scholarships (they were previously exclusive to men). The Menzies Liberal Government also supported and extended the ability of ordinary Australians to attend university.
> 
> In the 1960s, the Menzies Government encouraged and funded the establishment of new universities to cater for increasing demand. These universities were built in outlying suburbs and offered special research scholarships to encourage students to undertake postgraduate research studies. Many of the universities that were established under this scheme are members of Innovative Research Universities Australia.
> 
> In 1967, the Government created a category of non-university tertiary institution (called College of Advanced Education (CAE)) that would be funded by the Commonwealth. These CAEs were easier to access and cheaper to attend than the traditional university, while delivering many university-equivalent Bachelor degrees.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_education_fees_in_Australia


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2014)

drsmith said:


> What was the basis of university scholarships offered pre-Whitlam ?
> 
> Wikipedia is a bit thin on the detail.
> 
> ...




I'm fairly sure University was free in WA pre Whitlam, but places were limited.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 October 2014)

I was told there was a scholarship program for about half the students based on merit.


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## Tisme (27 October 2014)

Knobby22 said:


> I was told there was a scholarship program for about half the students based on merit.




About 80% apparently. 

I know I was miffed when I decided to do another degree and it cost me HECs, even though I earned a decent quid.


----------



## Tisme (27 October 2014)

Interesting story indicating the conspiracy theories about CIA and their influence in Australian matters dating back to Harold Holt and Gough might have some merit afterall:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/World/WOR-01-231014.html


----------



## Knobby22 (28 October 2014)

"Gough was tough until he hit the rough.
Uncle Sam and John were quite enough."


----------



## noco (28 October 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh shame, four weeks annual leave, the horror, the horror.
> 
> At last we had a government that realised that people are more than just an economic input, and that they have a life that they want to enjoy.
> 
> And for all your bs about communism, it's the communists that enforce labor, do away with trade unions, and make people slaves to their ideology. Whitlam at least gave people some freedom and time to enjoy life, after the Liberal enforced corporate slavery which we now seem to be returning to.




We once managed on 2 weeks annual leave for years and nobody complained....we also worked 40 hours a week....we had no 17.5% leave loading.

As Labor states, "You have to get the balance right".........The problem with Labor is the balance is always weighted one way.

You can't continue to live in the 19th century when unions were very important to prevent unscrupulous employers exploiting workers........You cannot deny the fact that the unions in the 50's and 60's were dominated by communists whose very role was to disrupt the economy.

Today we have only about 15% of workers in unions, the same unions who have a 50% say in how the Labor Party functions.......And those same unions who are so corrupt that they think nothing of stealing the workers funds for their own pleasure.     so much for the modern union movement.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 October 2014)

Most western countries get 4 weeks legislated leave, Noco. I don't think many would get the 17.5% loading.
France has a system that leads to 9 weeks leave which is a bit ridiculous imo. That country is run by socialists at the moment and is not doing well.

Interestingly the USA has *0*, zero, nada leave legislated and it is up the employer to say what the employee can have. Some say 1 week! Some employers don't allow any leave!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statutory_minimum_employment_leave_by_country


----------



## orr (6 November 2014)

Noel  eulogy to Gough, Sydney Town Hall 5/11/2014. 

This speech does great justice to a better understanding......... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDIc45eOILE


----------



## Bill M (6 November 2014)

orr said:


> Noel  eulogy to Gough, Sydney Town Hall 5/11/2014.
> 
> This speech does great justice to a better understanding.........
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDIc45eOILE




Thanks for that link orr, it was a beautiful speech to a great man. I doubt I will ever see a politician do so much good for our country or people again in my lifetime, thanks again.


----------



## Logique (6 November 2014)

I thought the tv coverage of the state funeral was well done, and loved the music.

For the life of me, I can't figure out how Carbon Cate got a speaking gig, she just rambled on about her film 'Little Fish', and how she was the beneficiary of free tertiary education (1987 at Uni, then dropped out).

Cate and her husband have just bought a waterside home on the tidal Hawkesbury River (Tim Flannery, snap!).  Watch out for the rising sea level folks.


----------



## noco (6 November 2014)

Logique said:


> I thought the tv coverage of the state funeral was well done, and loved the music.
> 
> For the life of me, I can't figure out how Carbon Cate got a speaking gig, she just rambled on about her film 'Little Fish', and how she was the beneficiary of free tertiary education (1987 at Uni, then dropped out).
> 
> Cate and her husband have just bought a waterside home on the tidal Hawkesbury River (Tim Flannery, snap!).  Watch out for the rising sea level folks.




Logique, you have to see the funny side reference Carbon Cate and Flannery.


----------



## Tisme (6 November 2014)

orr said:


> Noel  eulogy to Gough, Sydney Town Hall 5/11/2014.
> 
> This speech does great justice to a better understanding.........
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDIc45eOILE




Inspiring


----------



## Calliope (6 November 2014)

Feel the love.


----------



## drsmith (6 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> Feel the love.



That cartoon would have been better with Abbott (curiously missing) and Howard either side of Fraser, Rudd hip bumping Julia Gillard off the edge of the bench while withdrawing the stake from his back and Hawke with the stake still in his back.


----------



## Julia (6 November 2014)

The booing at the appearance of Tony Abbott and John Howard was an appalling display of bad manners.

Now that the ABC has spent many days reveling in the glory days of Mr Whitlam, hopefully the endless replays of the memorial service will be done, along with the accompanying eulogising from ABC presenters.

Even Paul Bongiorno, very much Left inclined, said this morning he felt the booing was a very jarring note.
He was quickly contradicted by Fran Kelly.


----------



## pixel (6 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> Inspiring




Thanks Tisme, for sharing this recording. 
One of the best eulogies anyone could hope for. (Pity that "the Old Man" could no longer hear it.)
We'll have to wait a very long time for a matching one to be delivered. 
I can't see anyone in line among the current crop of politicians...


----------



## Julia (6 November 2014)

Let's hope some of those impressed by Noel Pearson's eulogy will start to take some notice of his many orations about what he regards as the scourge of welfare for indigenous people.


----------



## drsmith (7 November 2014)

Julia said:


> Now that the ABC has spent many days reveling in the glory days of Mr Whitlam, hopefully the endless replays of the memorial service will be done, along with the accompanying eulogising from ABC presenters.



I'm sure they'll do the same for John Howard when the time comes.


----------



## Tisme (7 November 2014)

drsmith said:


> I'm sure they'll do the same for John Howard when the time comes.




I think they probably will give him some cudos, but with all facets of life there are always those who standout as inspirational leaders who were there at the right time. Gough is one of those like it or not. Churchill was another bloke who botched plenty of things in his lifetime, but he is still an icon of his tenure. The corollary of course are those villans who have also found a place in history.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> I think they probably will give him some cudos, but with all facets of life there are always those who standout as inspirational leaders who were there at the right time. Gough is one of those like it or not. Churchill was another bloke who botched plenty of things in his lifetime, but he is still an icon of his tenure. The corollary of course are those villans who have also found a place in history.




I agree with your comments about Gough. He really only made one mistake (the Loans scandal), but it was a biggie that destroyed the accumulated electoral capital that he built up. Tragic really.

I would also put Hawke in the "inspirational" department, not as engaging or endearing as Whitlam but the right man for the time.


----------



## bunyip (7 November 2014)

Julia said:


> The booing at the appearance of Tony Abbott and John Howard was an appalling display of bad manners.
> Even Paul Bongiorno, very much Left inclined, said this morning he felt the booing was a very jarring note.




Indeed it was. If those buffoons wanted to boo anyone then Rudd and Gillard would have been deserving candidates.
But the fact is that you attend a funeral to pay your respects to the person who has passed on, not to air your animosity towards any of the other people attending.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 November 2014)

Julia said:


> The booing at the appearance of Tony Abbott and John Howard was an appalling display of bad manners.
> 
> Now that the ABC has spent many days reveling in the glory days of Mr Whitlam, hopefully the endless replays of the memorial service will be done, along with the accompanying eulogising from ABC presenters.
> 
> ...






bunyip said:


> Indeed it was. If those buffoons wanted to boo anyone then Rudd and Gillard would have been deserving candidates.
> But the fact is that you attend a funeral to pay your respects to the person who has passed on, not to air your animosity towards any of the other people attending.




I would agree. 

It took away from the celebration of the passing of a great man, whatever you may think of his policies. 

The booing reminded me of Kim Beazley Snr.'s comment on the membership of the ALP in 1970.



> When I joined the Labor Party, it contained the cream of the working class. But as I look about me now, all I see are the dregs of the middle class. When will you middle class perverts stop using the Labor Party as a cultural spittoon?




gg


----------



## Macquack (7 November 2014)

drsmith said:


> I'm sure they'll do the same for John Howard when the time comes.




On John Howard, what did he actually do for the betterment of Australia?

I can only think of his gun control policy implementation.

Of course, I forgot the "no way that GST will ever be part of our policy, never ever, its dead" tax reform.


----------



## noco (7 November 2014)

Macquack said:


> On John Howard, what did he actually do for the betterment of Australia?
> 
> I can only think of his gun control policy implementation.
> 
> Of course, I forgot the "no way that GST will ever be part of our policy, never ever, its dead" tax reform.




Gough was the king pin of the Fabian Society....he was their patron for many years.....a communist in the true sense.....played by the Fabian book and was very subtle in his methods of obtaining central control...he wanted to buy back the farm as he termed it.

Howard went to an election assuring voters there would be no GST in his first term....he went to the next election with the GST as part of his policy and received a mandate......You seem to make out he introduced the GST without a mandate......The Labor Party under Kim Beasley was going to repeal it, but it never happened because the Labor Party knew they would kill the goose that laid the golden egg......The Labor Party were more than happy to retain it.

Howard certainly did not throw money around like drunken Labor Party sailors.

Paul Keating wanted to introduce a GST when he was treasurer but Hawke did not have the gutz to back him in case he lost votes......And of course we will never forget Paul Keatings promise to reduce income tax.....that was L-A-W Law.

You also have a short memory of your Fabian comrade Gillard....you know....."There will be no carbon dioxide tax under a Government I lead".....Comrade Gillard certainly had no mandate on the carbon tax.


----------



## So_Cynical (7 November 2014)

Julia said:


> Let's hope some of those impressed by Noel Pearson's eulogy will start to take some notice of his many orations about what he regards as the scourge of welfare for indigenous people.




About 10 or 12 years ago i though Noel could be PM material, apparently he was approached but declined the offer to enter federal politics to concentrate on his people and local community.


----------



## Macquack (7 November 2014)

noco said:


> Gough was the king pin of the Fabian Society....he was their patron for many years.....a communist in the true sense.....played by the Fabian book and was very subtle in his methods of obtaining central control...he wanted to buy back the farm as he termed it.
> 
> Howard went to an election assuring voters there would be no GST in his first term....he went to the next election with the GST as part of his policy and received a mandate......You seem to make out he introduced the GST without a mandate......The Labor Party under Kim Beasley was going to repeal it, but it never happened because the Labor Party knew they would kill the goose that laid the golden egg......The Labor Party were more than happy to retain it.
> 
> ...




Noco, you are crutching at straws. Just tell us what little Johny *ACTUALLY DID FOR AUSTRALIA*.

Put up a list, a list with honours?


----------



## noco (7 November 2014)

Macquack said:


> Noco, you are crutching at straws. Just tell us what little Johny *ACTUALLY DID FOR AUSTRALIA*.
> 
> Put up a list, a list with honours?





Correct  me if I am wrong, but I think this thread is about "RIP Gough Whitlam"...John Howard is still alive.

You seemed to have strayed a bit ole mate.


----------



## IFocus (7 November 2014)

noco said:


> Gough was the king pin of the Fabian Society....he was their patron for many years.....a communist in the true sense.....L-A-W Law.




Gough fought off the communist elements in the party and had little time for the far left try reading up his early history in Labor


----------



## SirRumpole (7 November 2014)

IFocus said:


> Gough fought off the communist elements in the party and had little time for the far left try reading up his early history in Labor




And he didn't like the unions either.

Gough was educated upper/middle class, like most of the Labor leaders in recent years, Wran, Carr, Rudd, Gillard, not engine drivers like Chifley.


----------



## noco (7 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> And he didn't like the unions either.
> 
> Gough was educated upper/middle class, like most of the Labor leaders in recent years, Wran, Carr, Rudd, Gillard, not engine drivers like Chifley.





So why was he appointed patron of the Fabian Society?... he must have been a communist in disguise......Gillard was  Fabian but she was "honest" to confess she was a communist.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 November 2014)

noco said:


> So why was he appointed patron of the Fabian Society?... he must have been a communist in disguise......Gillard was  Fabian but she was "honest" to confess she was a communist.




It's amazing how a bit of wealth changes one's political opinions.

Gillard may have been a communist in her student days, but once a solicitor the idea of giving most of her hard earned to the government probably lost it's appeal.


----------



## Julia (7 November 2014)

So_Cynical said:


> About 10 or 12 years ago i though Noel could be PM material, apparently he was approached but declined the offer to enter federal politics to concentrate on his people and local community.



That sounds right.   However honourable he might be, however, and I believe he is absolutely, I'm not sure that he is widely enough known outside of his own community and people who have followed his philosophy over the years, to cut through in the vicious world of federal politics.  More's the pity.




noco said:


> So why was he appointed patron of the Fabian Society?... he must have been a communist in disguise......Gillard was  Fabian but she was "honest" to confess she was a communist.



Noco, is there any chance of your giving this Fabian stuff a bit of a rest?   Ms Gillard belonged to the Communist Party for a time in her radical youth, just as probably right leaning politicians belonged to the equivalent (whatever that might have been) on the other end of the political spectrum.

There is nothing inherently evil in the minds of most people about the Fabian Society.  It's just another left leaning think tank type organisation.


----------



## noco (7 November 2014)

Julia said:


> That sounds right.   However honourable he might be, however, and I believe he is absolutely, I'm not sure that he is widely enough known outside of his own community and people who have followed his philosophy over the years, to cut through in the vicious world of federal politics.  More's the pity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Julia, I make no apology if I am a bore to you but I will hammer this stuff  home as much and often as I can...I want as many people as possible to understand The Green/Labor party are wolves in sheep's clothing and I hope more and more people will realize how sneaky and subtle they go about things without the naive really knowing what they are up to.....There are lot of viewers on the ASF.......I hope I make them think twice about the Green/Labor socialist left wing Party...... 

I have posted the link Restore Australia again in case you missed it before. 


http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/

*The Fabianists believe in achieving their aims by stealth. They were opposed to the violent revolutions in Russia and China. Instead, they prefer to infiltrate into positions of power and then go about implementing their socialist agenda step by step. They operate so stealthily and operate so slowly, chipping away at the very fabric of society little by little, that most people don’t even notice they have lost their freedom until it is too late. At the same time, the Fabianists are extremely skilled at manipulating public opinion using emotive causes that sound so attractive that most people miss the sinister purpose behind them.*


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## noco (7 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> It's amazing how a bit of wealth changes one's political opinions.
> 
> Gillard may have been a communist in her student days, but once a solicitor the idea of giving most of her hard earned to the government probably lost it's appeal.




Gillard is still a member of the Fabian society....did you really expect her to continue under the communist banner while in the office of Prime Minister.....FFS give her credit...she was not that stupid.


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## IFocus (8 November 2014)

Julia said:


> The booing at the appearance of Tony Abbott and John Howard was an appalling display of bad manners.




I thought the same but it was a very emotional day to celebrate Gough's achievements which had a direct positive impact on many lives Blanchett and Noel Pearson pointing out there own. Abbott and Howard are the people who chose to tear down those achievement's for their own idealogical reasons not necessarily for the good of people in Australian.

Thats what has separated Gough from the pack he was never an ideologue but understood what was right and moved heaven and earth to make it happen.


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## SirRumpole (8 November 2014)

noco said:
			
		

> The Fabianists believe in achieving their aims by stealth. They were opposed to the violent revolutions in Russia and China. Instead, they prefer to infiltrate into positions of power and then go about implementing their socialist agenda step by step. They operate so stealthily and operate so slowly, chipping away at the very fabric of society little by little, that most people don’t even notice they have lost their freedom until it is too late. At the same time, the Fabianists are extremely skilled at manipulating public opinion using emotive causes that sound so attractive that most people miss the sinister purpose behind them.




You could replace "Fabians and socialists" with "IPA and Tea Party" and your quote would say the same thing.


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## IFocus (8 November 2014)

noco said:


> http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/
> 
> *The Fabianists believe in achieving their aims by stealth. They were opposed to the violent revolutions in Russia and China. Instead, they prefer to infiltrate into positions of power and then go about implementing their socialist agenda step by step. They operate so stealthily and operate so slowly, chipping away at the very fabric of society little by little, that most people don’t even notice they have lost their freedom until it is too late. At the same time, the Fabianists are extremely skilled at manipulating public opinion using emotive causes that sound so attractive that most people miss the sinister purpose behind them.*




Extreme propaganda, the media of hate always draws a crowd

BTW description fits Abbott to a tee.


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## noco (8 November 2014)

IFocus said:


> Extreme propaganda, the media of hate always draws a crowd
> 
> BTW description fits Abbott to a tee.




Hmmmmm...I can see I have hit a nerve with that sort of reply.


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## Calliope (8 November 2014)

noco said:


> Julia, I make no apology if I am a bore to you but I will hammer this stuff  home as much and often as I can




I suggest you take Julia's advice. It is not a good look when your friends find your Fabrian accusations boring, and the targets of your barbs deflect them so easily.

If What You’re Doing Isn’t Working, Try Something Else


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## noco (8 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> I suggest you take Julia's advice. It is not a good look when your friends find your Fabrian accusations boring, and the targets of your barbs deflect them so easily.
> 
> If What You’re Doing Isn’t Working, Try Something Else




Sorry Calliope, if I want anyone's advice I will ask for it.

I have lived many years through this political propaganda of indoctrination and persuasion and have seen the changes made to their  modus operandi and there is very little good from any of it....there is a set agenda to it all and I personally don't like it.


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## Julia (8 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> I suggest you take Julia's advice.




It wasn't advice.  Just a comment designed to suggest that I rarely read any of the posts as soon as the "F" word hits me again.


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## noco (8 November 2014)

Julia said:


> It wasn't advice.  Just a comment designed to suggest that I rarely read any of the posts as soon as the "F" word hits me again.




Julia, that is your prerogative whether you read my posts or not......personally I could not care less whether you do or don't.....you are just one in 2994 viewers...........If I caught the attention of one third of those viewers to be made aware of the sneaky way the Green/Labor left wing socialist operate, I would be more than happy.

The more one mentions it, the more many readers will realize what is going  with this "F" organization.

I have taken my lessons from the Global Warming alarmist....the more you mention it, the more chance one has of getting through.

If I had never mentioned the Fabians, thousands of people would never have been aware it even existed.


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## SirRumpole (8 November 2014)

noco said:


> If I had never mentioned the Fabians, thousands of people would never have been aware it even existed.




Oh, the horror of that ignorance.


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## noco (8 November 2014)

SirRumpole said:


> Oh, the horror of that ignorance.




?????????????????


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## nulla nulla (8 November 2014)

noco said:


> Julia, I make no apology if I am a bore to you but I will hammer this stuff  home as much and often as I can...I want as many people as possible to understand The Green/Labor party are wolves in sheep's clothing and I hope more and more people will realize how sneaky and subtle they go about things without the naive really knowing what they are up to.....There are lot of viewers on the ASF.......I hope I make them think twice about the Green/Labor socialist left wing Party......
> 
> I have posted the link Restore Australia again in case you missed it before.
> 
> ...




A bit like the republican "tea party" then?

RIP Gough, Vale Gough. If it wasn't for Gough I probably would have been killed in Vietnam. I and many others owe him so much.


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## Calliope (8 November 2014)

nulla nulla said:


> A bit like the republican "tea party" then?
> 
> RIP Gough, Vale Gough. If it wasn't for Gough I probably would have been killed in Vietnam. I and many others owe him so much.




It's sad to think that for all these years you have been labouring under a misapprehension. But  why let the truth get in the way of a heart-touching story. Teen-age nulla was never in any danger from the Viet Cong



> By the time the Labor Government was elected in December 1972 there were only about 120 Australian troops in Vietnam - as training officers with the Australian Army Training Team Vietnam (AATTV).
> 
> The decision to scale back Australia's combat contribution was made in 1970, and *all Australian combat troops had been returned to Australia well before December 1972*




http://www.anzacday.org.au/education/activities/vietnam/answer4.html


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## SirRumpole (8 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> It's sad to think that for all these years you have been labouring under a misapprehension. But  why let the truth get in the way of a heart-touching story. Teen-age nulla was never in any danger from the Viet Cong
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.anzacday.org.au/education/activities/vietnam/answer4.html




Whitlam ended conscription though, otherwise there may have been conscripts in Iraq and Afghanistan.


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## drsmith (9 November 2014)

Calliope said:


> Feel the love.
> 
> View attachment 60165



It almost happened,



> *(Some numbskull, having made the rookie error of supposing that former Labor prime ministers might enjoy sitting next to each other, nearly upset the event by plonking Julia Gillard next to Kevin Rudd.* A perilous move; Mr Rudd, already white-lipped at the large round of indifference he received from the crowd in comparison with the whooping and fainting that greeted Ms Gillard, might have stabbed her fatally with his Harvard tie pin had she been allowed within arm's length.  In the end, Ms Gillard sat next to Malcolm Fraser, which assuaged any fears Mr Fraser might have to sit next to an actual fellow Liberal, John Howard. Mr Howard in turn sat next to Bob Hawke, thus removing any possibility Mr Hawke should have to interact with his former colleague Paul Keating, and so on.)




http://www.smh.com.au/comment/all-q...in-defused-ahead-of-apec-20141107-11ik89.html

My bolds.


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## drsmith (9 November 2014)

Tisme said:


> I think they probably will give him some cudos, but with all facets of life there are always those who standout as inspirational leaders who were there at the right time. Gough is one of those like it or not. Churchill was another bloke who botched plenty of things in his lifetime, but he is still an icon of his tenure. The corollary of course are those villans who have also found a place in history.



Let's not get too carried away here. He's only an icon to the faithful.

As for comparison with Winston Churchill, he led his nation though (as he put it) their darkest hour. Gough Whitlam led his party to two crushing electoral defeats.


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## orr (9 November 2014)

drsmith said:


> Let's not get too carried away here.




_To make omlettes......_ first you must...???

Gough led Australia out of a 'dark age' ..... and Aborigonal australia out of a 'white' one.

to watch the tapped out tittering of the piss-ants here; Those that will never hold court to more than the dim and  addled few on a near by RSL  stool. And to know the soaring rhetoric  of Noel P will be acknowledged though time by citizens in there tens and hundreds of thousands who care to want to know enough to drag this country forward. And this will be remembered long after the vitriol and half though out blatherings of so many sycophantic media toadies, dissolved like K9 stool that it is, and a rich and better australia moves on,  nurtured by the institutions that Whitlams few short years initiated and strengthened. 
Because Whitlam and Pearson are our History ........ and this thread?... is the personals/opinion page of the 'Telegraph' at the bottom of the budgie cage,  guano, broken eggs and bolt.
The breakfast of Blinkered conservatism.


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## noco (9 November 2014)

orr said:


> _To make omlettes......_ first you must...???
> 
> Gough led Australia out of a 'dark age' ..... and Aborigonal australia out of a 'white' one.
> 
> ...




What a lot of twaddle...I stopped reading it half way through.


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## Macquack (9 November 2014)

orr said:


> _To make omlettes......_ first you must...???
> 
> Gough led Australia out of a 'dark age' ..... and Aborigonal australia out of a 'white' one.
> 
> ...




Bravo.


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## drsmith (9 November 2014)

noco said:


> What a lot of twaddle...I stopped reading it half way through.



I'm struggling to understand the connection between what I quoted, what I said and race in the Australian context.


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## Tisme (25 May 2016)

Quote of 194cm Gough



> 'I travel economy and I am a great man. I could travel economy for the rest of my life and I would still be a great man. But most of the people around this table' - and that was the cabinet - 'are pissants and they could travel first class for the rest of their life and they would still be pissants'.


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## luutzu (25 May 2016)

Tisme said:


> Quote of 194cm Gough




My thought exactly! That's why I always travel sardine class 

It's not that bad actually. And not sure why people always complaint about airline food - they're pretty good.


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## Tisme (7 April 2017)

Has much changed?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-27/verrender-think-whitlam-ruined-our-economy-think-again/5842866


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## noco (7 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> Has much changed?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-27/verrender-think-whitlam-ruined-our-economy-think-again/5842866



The late Gough Whitlam was the Fabian patron....Enough said.


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## Tisme (7 April 2017)

noco said:


> The late Gough Whitlam was the Fabian patron....Enough said.




I have a feeling his penchant for calling everyone "comrade" is a good indicator of his political persuasion... that and the fact he was a Labor PM.

The article was the substance, not the veneer.


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## SirRumpole (7 April 2017)

noco said:


> The late Gough Whitlam was the Fabian patron....Enough said.




A lot of people found that attractive which is why they voted for him.

Unfortunately he didn't keep enough control over Rex Connor and the loans scandal, that was his worst mistake but in other ways he achieved a lot.


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## noco (7 April 2017)

Tisme said:


> I have a feeling his penchant for calling everyone "comrade" is a good indicator of his political persuasion... that and the fact he was a Labor PM.
> 
> The article was the substance, not the veneer.




Gough new exactly what he was doing and was right behind Rex Conner......He was going to socialize the banks, mining agriculture, mining and manufacturing....He gave Rex a free rein to "BUY BACK THE FARM".

A true Fabian in every sense of the word.


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## SirRumpole (7 April 2017)

noco said:


> Gough new exactly what he was doing and was right behind Rex Conner......He was going to socialize the banks, mining agriculture, mining and manufacturing....He gave Rex a free rein to "BUY BACK THE FARM".
> 
> A true Fabian in every sense of the word.




And the LNP would have PRIVATISED MEDICARE !

Bl**dy vandals !


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## noco (7 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And the LNP would have PRIVATISED MEDICARE !
> 
> Bl**dy vandals !




Oh dear Rumpy, not that again!!!!!!!!!!!...You are desperate.......

OFF TOPIC into the bargain.


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## SirRumpole (7 April 2017)

noco said:


> Oh dear Rumpy, not that again!!!!!!!!!!!...You are desperate.......
> 
> OFF TOPIC into the bargain.




Not really. You attribute all sorts of supposed atrocities to Whitlam which never happened, but you can't take it in return.

Whitlam can't defend himself now, so I suggest you let him RIP.


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## noco (7 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Not really. You attribute all sorts of supposed atrocities to Whitlam which never happened, but you can't take it in return.
> 
> Whitlam can't defend himself now, so I suggest you let him RIP.




It happened alright and that is why he got the sack.......If you don't believe me, have a look at the history of Whitlam and the Labor Party....You are obviously behind the times.


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## SirRumpole (7 April 2017)

noco said:


> It happened alright and that is why he got the sack.......If you don't believe me, have a look at the history of Whitlam and the Labor Party....You are obviously behind the times.




What happened ? Socialised the Banks ? Nope. Socialised mining ? Nope. Socialised manufacturing ? Nope.

You are off your chair old chum.


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## noco (7 April 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What happened ? Socialised the Banks ? Nope. Socialised mining ? Nope. Socialised manufacturing ? Nope.
> 
> You are off your chair old chum.




He did not get the chance because Rex Connor failed in his attempt to get the money from Klemlani.....His intentions were very clear and that was to "BUY BACK THE FARM"....If that is not socialism, then I don't know what else you would call it....Communism.....Fabianism.


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## Joules MM1 (30 May 2020)

onya, Gough
...still kickin in the stands


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## explod (30 May 2020)

noco said:


> He did not get the chance because Rex Connor failed in his attempt to get the money from Klemlani.....His intentions were very clear and that was to "BUY BACK THE FARM"....If that is not socialism, then I don't know what else you would call it....Communism.....Fabianism.




Yep and it will return as the, Common People (communism) rise and they have to survive.

Whitlam thought of people not his own self. Medicare a brilliant one still stands. People in most countries suffer without aid.


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