# Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion



## DB008 (30 January 2020)

*Corona Virus in China (and rest of world)*​
*Human Coronavirus Types
*
Coronaviruses are named for the crown-like spikes on their surface. There are four main sub-groupings of coronaviruses, known as alpha, beta, gamma, and delta.

Human coronaviruses were first identified in the mid-1960s. The seven coronaviruses that can infect people are:

*Common human coronaviruses*

229E (alpha coronavirus)
NL63 (alpha coronavirus)
OC43 (beta coronavirus)
HKU1 (beta coronavirus)
*Other human coronaviruses*

MERS-CoV (the beta coronavirus that causes Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, or MERS)
SARS-CoV (the beta coronavirus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS)
2019 Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)

People around the world commonly get infected with human coronaviruses 229E, NL63, OC43, and HKU1.


Sometimes coronaviruses that infect animals can evolve and make people sick and become a new human coronavirus. Three recent examples of this are 2019-nCoV, SARS-CoV, and MERS-CoV.​
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/index.html​
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html​*
29th Jan 2020 update (30th Jan AEDT)*

24 hour period (Depends on where you get the numbers from, there can be wide ranging discrepancies).

Deaths
106 -> 132 (24.5% increase)

Confirmed Cases
4515 -> 5974 (32% increase)

As we are dealing with China (CCR), l would add a zero (at a minimum) onto those numbers because the CCR lie to save face.

Reposts that Corona Virus has made its way to Xinjiang where they are holding 1 million Uighur Muslims in labour camps.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...-camps-2020-1?utm_source=reddit.com&r=US&IR=T


​


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## DB008 (30 January 2020)

China is building a 1000 bed hospital very quickly (supposed to be 10 days)

Live link construction. Credit where credit is due, China is moving very fast on this, so that is a positive.

​


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## Dona Ferentes (30 January 2020)

The WHO's latest situation report put the number of global cases of coronavirus at 6065 - with more than 98 per cent of cases in China.

According to the WHO's January 29 data, there were 5997 confirmed cases in China, 9239 suspected, 1239 deemed as severe with 132 deaths. Reuters put the death toll at 133. Elsewhere, there were 68 confirmed cases in 15 countries


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## DB008 (30 January 2020)

*Coronavirus: Death toll rises as virus spreads to*
*every Chinese region*​
The death toll from the coronavirus outbreak has risen to 170, and a confirmed case in Tibet means it has reached every region in mainland China.

Chinese health authorities said there were 7,711 confirmed cases in the country as of 29 January.

Infections have also spread to at least 15 other countries.

The World Health Organization (WHO) will meet on Thursday to again consider whether the virus constitutes a global health emergency.

"In the last few days the progress of the virus, especially in some countries, especially human-to-human transmission, worries us," WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said on Wednesday.

He named Germany, Vietnam and Japan, where there have been cases of people catching the virus from others who have been to China.

"Although the numbers outside China are still relatively small, they hold the potential for a much larger outbreak," the WHO chief said.

More people have now been infected in China than during the Sars outbreak in the early 2000s, but the death toll remains far lower. Sars, also a coronavirus, caused acute respiratory illness.​

More on link below...

https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/cyz0z8w0ydwt/coronavirus-outbreak​


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## DB008 (31 January 2020)

*Statement on the second meeting of the International Health Regulations (2005) Emergency Committee regarding the outbreak of novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV)*​Representatives of the Ministry of Health of the People’s Republic of China reported on the current situation and the public health measures being taken. There are now 7711 confirmed and 12167 suspected cases throughout the country. Of the confirmed cases, 1370 are severe and 170 people have died. 124 people have recovered and been discharged from hospital.

The WHO Secretariat provided an overview of the situation in other countries. There are now 82 cases in 18 countries. Of these, only 7 had no history of travel in China. There has been human-to-human transmission in 3 countries outside China. One of these cases is severe and there have been no deaths.

At its first meeting, the Committee expressed divergent views on whether this event constitutes a PHEIC or not. At that time, the advice was that the event did not constitute a PHEIC, but the Committee members agreed on the urgency of the situation and suggested that the Committee should continue its meeting on the next day, when it reached the same conclusion. 

This second meeting takes place in view of significant increases in numbers of cases and additional countries reporting confirmed cases.​
https://www.who.int/news-room/detai...the-outbreak-of-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)​


*Rough Timeline of Some Key Events
*​*Date* *2019-nCoV*

Dec 1 Earliest known patient with symptom onset
Dec 24 Collection of genomic sequence based on atypical pneumonia
Dec 31 WHO notified
Jan 1 Seafood market is closed + decontaminated
Jan 8 Novel coronavirus identified
Jan 10 Dr. Zhang (Shanghai) releases genome, first fatality
Jan 13 1st exported case in Thailand
Jan 19 First diagnostic test
Jan 20 Human-Human transmission confirmed
Jan 23 CEPI funding of vaccine development, quarantine begins
Jan 28 Australia is 1st to grow virus outside China
Present/Onwards animal modeling, identification of reservoir, pathogenesis, pathophysiology etc

*Insights*

It shares a crucial protein with SARS. Existing compounds are already being tested in China for treatment


Use of masks alone is insufficient to prevent infection. It can worsen problems if people believe all you need is a mask. Other hygiene measures are needed: wash hands, sneeze/coughing into a disposable tissue, maintain distance of >1 meter WHO Website


Incubation period for the first 425 patients was 5.2 days. R0 differs by study. If R0 > 1, the epidemic will increase. We aim to reduce this number to < 1. R0 = 2.2 so on average, each patient will infect 2.2 other people


Of the first 425 patients: 240 (56%) were male. No cases for children under age 15. 84 cases for ages 15-44. 179 cases between ages 45-64. 162 cases for age 65 and over. Incubation period for the first 425 patients was 5.2 days. Nearly half of cases occurred people over age 60. It's possible that children _are_ infected but show milder symptoms. In the coming weeks, once developed, a seroprevalence study (where we test your blood serum) will give us a much better idea.


What we're monitoring is whether exportation of cases in other countries can sustain transmission. This is crucial leading up to a pandemic. Circulation within the community is bad news. It's why surveillance, isolation, and why close contacts are being monitored.


*Useful Websites
*​
WHO Coronavirus
WHO Situation Reports
China CDC
CDC USA
Health Canada
Centers for Disease Prevention and Control (EU)
Australia Department of Health
Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy


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## DB008 (31 January 2020)

Johns Hopkins Live Tracker

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6​


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## DB008 (2 February 2020)

*Coronavirus: first death outside China recorded*
*as total fatalities pass 300*​
*Man from Wuhan has died in a Philippines hospital, says WHO, as Xi Jinping orders 1,400 more medical workers into Wuhan*​
The Philippines has reported the first death from the coronavirus outside China, adding to fears about the spread of the virus as more countries imposed travel restrictions.

The outbreak of the respiratory illness has killed 304 people in China since it was first detected in the central city of Wuhan late last year. Across China, there were 2,590 new confirmed infections on Saturday, bringing the total to 14,380, China’s National Health Commission said on Sunday. A study published on Saturday by scientists from the University of Hong Kong found that the virus may have infected as many as 75,815 people in Wuhan.

The virus, which has been declared a global public health emergency, has caused at least 100 infections in more than 20 countries, with Britain, Russia and Sweden confirming their first infections over the weekend. Japan has recorded 20 cases, including those involving human-to-human transmission, while the US on Sunday reported its eighth case.

Japan on Saturday confirmed an additional three cases among evacuees from Wuhan, including one, a man in his 40s, who initially tested negative, the health ministry said.

The fatality in the Philippines is a 44-year-old Chinese man from Wuhan who died in a hospital in Manila. He appears to have been infected before his arrival in the Philippines​
https://www.theguardian.com/global-...g-kong-health-workers-to-strike-china-border-​


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## DB008 (3 February 2020)

Reports on social media, people in Wuhan that they are running out of body bags, interesting considering the official death toll is around ~300+

This guy also has some interesting points.

https://chown.io/files/china/cremcount.mp4


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## sptrawler (3 February 2020)

Early reports suggest the virus may be spread anal/ oral, as the virus has been found in the victims stools, hand washing will be imperative in avoiding the virus if the theory is proven correct. Stay safe people.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/pol...tists-identify-possible-new-mode-transmission
From the article:
The results have echoed similar findings elsewhere, including in Wuhan, 
the epicentre of the virus outbreak
, and the United States, with some scientists saying the research shows it was possible the virus was transmitted via human excrement.


Researchers at Shi Zhengli’s Laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which is administered by the Chinese Academy of Sciences, found nucleic acids in stool samples and anal swabs from a group of coronavirus pneumonia patients in the city, according to a report from state news agency Xinhua.


The scientists concluded that the virus could be transmitted “to a certain degree” via facecal-oral transmission


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## Value Collector (3 February 2020)




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## IFocus (3 February 2020)

The numbers coming out of China don't represent the exponential nature of a endemic so hate to think what the real rates are.


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## DB008 (5 February 2020)

IFocus - add a zero onto what China says their numbers are. They are trying to 'save face'.

Wed 5th Jan - from the Johns Hopkins tracker

Total confirmed - 20, 704
Total deaths - 427
Total recovered - 727


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## qldfrog (5 February 2020)

Politics is never far.
Their ABC headlines is now about how bad christmas island resort is...we even have a picture of a cockroach..see how bad it is..as we have to remember how bad our illegal immigrants are treated....
And then how racist we are with the China travel ban.
Seriously?
A very worrying fact is that there is no travel bans in place in Cambodia Vietnam Laos etc.a lot of Chinese tourists there and a population which will be hit hard when infected
I also wonder about the massive but recent Chinese presence in Africa and its implication health wise


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## Knobby22 (5 February 2020)

Listening to radio, some Christmas Island visitors complained about conditions including a dead coacroach. They are getting quarantine for free. Normally we expect a small contribution towards air fares etc.

Did find article about some Chinese students saying we are racist for stopping flights to Australia. 

I am sure it's only a few who whinge.


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## qldfrog (5 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Listening to radio, some Christmas Island visitors complained about conditions including a dead coacroach. They are getting quarantine for free. Normally we expect a small contribution towards air fares etc.
> 
> Did find article about some Chinese students saying we are racist for stopping flights to Australia.
> 
> I am sure it's only a few who whinge.



Indeed if you read further, most are happy to be back where they have a chance if they fall sick, but the ABC headlines have to push an agenda.
In a time like this, it is pretty disgraceful imho.
Good on the gov to bring these guys back, it is a nightmare to try to leave china now for expats.so lucky i am not stuck there..
This virus issue will be a marathon, anyone thinking it will be over soon is dreaming in my view.
Time will tell, today could be another great opportunity to short the market


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## wayneL (6 February 2020)

Yikes


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## DB008 (7 February 2020)

Friday 7th Feb 2020 AM AEST

Total Confirmed 28,353
Total Deaths 565
Total Recovered 1,382

Some biotech companies are claiming to have a cure within the next month or so....


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## satanoperca (7 February 2020)

DB008 said:


> Friday 7th Feb 2020 AM AEST
> 
> Total Confirmed 28,353
> Total Deaths 565
> ...



The more realistic 
Total Confirmed 283,530
Total Deaths 5650
Total Recovered 13,820

That is why they are running out of body bags


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## IFocus (7 February 2020)

I wonder how long you can lock a country down for?


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## fergee (7 February 2020)

IFocus said:


> I wonder how long you can lock a country down for?



Depends how much food you've got.


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## sptrawler (9 February 2020)

In most western countries from memory, you couldnt stop people with HIV donating blood, luckily the coronavirus isnt a big problem here. YET.
Because there is no way, you will be able to stop people doing what they like here, infected or not infected IMO.


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## noirua (9 February 2020)




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## qldfrog (9 February 2020)

noirua said:


>



Add 5 in France, not Chinese tourists


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## fergee (9 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Because there is no way, you will be able to stop people doing what they like here, infected or not infected IMO.



Martial law could be declared if it was deemed serious enough. I dont think it would get to that point and if it did it would be to late and a shtf scenario.


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## qldfrog (10 February 2020)

A bad development: has been confirmed airborne
People on wechat fretting about ventilation, air circulation
You can get it entering a room a contaminated person was in a few minutes ago.
It is a bastard virus...
And i think now China has no choice but start reopening a bit:
Shops are empty!
Food supplies, etc


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## Dona Ferentes (10 February 2020)

*Key diagnostic test might be missing many virus cases*

*Liu Denghui, Huang Shulun and Matthew Walsh*

Feb 9, 2020 — 6.55pm

_Beijing_ | China’s ability to control the rapidly spreading coronavirus epidemic is under further strain amid fears that a key test used to confirm new cases is failing to catch large numbers of people with the disease.
Problems with so-called nucleic acid tests (NATs) widely used to identify the presence of the previously unknown pneumonia-causing virus make it likely that many infections are going uncounted even as the number of confirmed cases continues to spiral.

Authorities are still struggling to ascertain the true extent of the epidemic. In Hubei, the province at the epicentre of the outbreak, reports of overwhelmed hospitals, scarce medical supplies, and overly stringent diagnostic criteria have complicated efforts to determine the scope of the disease.

Health officials have recommended cheap, abundant, and generally accurate NATs as one of two main methods to confirm the presence of the coronavirus in humans. The technique involves collecting samples from patients and testing them for specific kinds of molecules that appear in the genetic material of the new coronavirus. If those molecules are present in the sample, the patient is isolated for treatment.

But there is growing concern that those NATs are producing large numbers of false negatives. In an interview last week with state broadcaster CCTV, Wang Chen, an expert in critical diseases and director of the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences, said one characteristic of the virus was that “not all of those infected by it return positive NATs”.

“Even patients who definitely have the disease only come back positive 30 per cent to 50 per cent of the time,” Dr Wang said. “Testing throat swabs [from potentially infected people] also returns a lot of false negatives.”
Tests like NATs are especially important in people that may have contracted the virus but have not yet shown symptoms. Emerging trends in local infections mean that many such patients may have been sent home by hospitals after their NATs came back negative, doctors told _Caixin_.

“At the moment, more and more cases in Wuhan are flaring up collectively in family groups, and the majority are of the concealed onset type,” said Zhang Xiaochun, a deputy director of the medical imaging department at Zhongnan Hospital of Wuhan University, one of the institutions at the centre of the outbreak.

“They may have undergone one or even several NATs and shown no clinical symptoms, but keeping them under observation at home is bound to spread the disease further.”

A doctor in the imaging department of another major Wuhan hospital, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told _Caixin_ said that previously some patients whose CT scans clearly showed signs of viral infection but whose NATs tested negative were “released” back into their communities due to a shortage of hospital berths.

NATs are by nature an imperfect mechanism for determining the presence of a given organism. For instance, because the genetic material they test for usually only exists in tiny amounts, many NATs include a step called amplification, which makes many copies of it. A shortcoming of amplification is that it also copies any contaminating DNA in the sample, potentially causing misleading results.

“All experienced doctors know that NATs contain flaws,” the doctor told _Caixin_.

Aside from NATs, health officials have also recommended the use of gene sequencing to confirm coronavirus infections.

But that method has its own problems. Although gene sequencing is comparatively accurate, it is also expensive, and not all affected hospitals have the necessary facilities. Additionally, at the start of the outbreak, many hospitals had to gain permission from higher authorities to conduct such tests, a rule that has since been relaxed.

Experts have previously called for the inclusion of CT scanning as a key basis for diagnosing coronavirus infections, as well as rapid hospital admission and isolation.

In response to calls from medical professionals on the frontlines of the epidemic, the NHC on Tuesday relaxed the clinical criteria for reporting suspected coronavirus cases, with extra leeway granted to people in Hubei.

_(Originally published in Caixin)_


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## sptrawler (10 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> A bad development: has been confirmed airborne
> People on wechat fretting about ventilation, air circulation
> You can get it entering a room a contaminated person was in a few minutes ago.
> It is a bastard virus...
> ...



Are you sure they mean it lingers in the air, or do they mean that if someone sneezes, the droplet lands on something and the virus stays alive?
That is usually the case as a sneeze ect is heavier than air and the droplets fall quite quickly to a surface, therefore breathing it in a room where someone has left is unusual.
Here is an explanation from CNN:
Coronaviruses "primarily spread through close contact with another individual, in particular through coughing and sneezing on somebody else who is within a range of about 3 to 6 feet from that person," said Dr. Kathy Lofy, a state health officer for Washington, where the patient with confirmed coronavirus has been hospitalized.

If an infected person sneezes or coughs onto a surface — a countertop, for example — and another person touches that surface and then rubs his or her eyes or nose, for example, the latter may get sick.

It's still unclear, however, how long the virus particles for this new coronavirus can live on surfaces.

What's more, it's unknown at what point a person with the virus becomes contagious. Health care workers are operating under the assumption that the incubation period for the illness is about 14 days, meaning that it takes roughly that amount of time for symptoms to show up after a person is infected. Scientists still do not know whether a person is infectious during the incubation period.

Infectious disease experts are hoping to glean insight into the new virus from another well-known coronavirus, the SARS virus. That coronavirus caused widespread global disease during its outbreak from 2002 to 2003.

"While we do not know all of the mechanisms of spread of the epidemic so far, there is likely spread by droplets and contaminated surfaces, and possible airborne [spread], similar to SARS," Dr. Mark Denison, a virologist at the Vanderbilt University Medical Center, said. Denison has been studying coronaviruses for more than three decades.

All of this makes proper hand-washing critical to help stop the spread of the germs. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends washing hands with soap and water before eating, after using the bathroom, and after blowing your nose, coughing or sneezing, and before and after caring for a sick friend or a family member.

The most effective way to clean hands is to wet them with clean water, then apply soap and scrub for at least 20 seconds, before rinsing and drying with a clean towel.

Hand sanitizers with at least 60 percent alcohol content may also be used, but the CDC warns they are not effective against all germs.


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## qldfrog (10 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Are you sure they mean it lingers in the air, or do they mean that if someone sneezes, the droplet lands on something and the virus stays alive?
> That is usually the case as a sneeze ect is heavier than air and the droplets fall quite quickly to a surface, therefore breathing it in a room where someone has left is unusual.
> Here is an explanation from CNN:
> Coronaviruses "primarily spread through close contact with another individual, in particular through coughing and sneezing on somebody else who is within a range of about 3 to 6 feet from that person," said Dr. Kathy Lofy, a state health officer for Washington, where the patient with confirmed coronavirus has been hospitalized.
> ...



Sadly no, a Shanghai health official has confirmed it and it is all over the news is China today: the virus can infect you airborne:
a contaminated person breathes, the virus attaches itself to air droplets, is carried around and reinfects another person breathing the air, you will get a WHO release in the coming days/hours.It is NOT good;
I try to find an English release of the news


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## qldfrog (10 February 2020)

here it is:
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/china-confirms-coronavirus-is-airborne/ar-BBZOXg2
Keep calm, buy the dip ROL


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## sptrawler (10 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Sadly no, a Shanghai health official has confirmed it and it is all over the news is China today: the virus can infect you airborne:
> a contaminated person breathes, the virus attaches itself to air droplets, is carried around and reinfects another person breathing the air, you will get a WHO release in the coming days/hours.It is NOT good;
> I try to find an English release of the news



Jeez that is bad news.


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## qldfrog (10 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Jeez that is bad news.



Indeed, and I can tell you it is attracting a strong reaction in China.Can only hope it is not true.Will have to wait a few days for WHO reactions


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## sptrawler (10 February 2020)

Total infected on the Diamond Princess reaches 130.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...princess-new-cases-japan-cruise-ship/11951058


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## Smurf1976 (10 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Did find article about some Chinese students saying we are racist for stopping flights to Australia.




Thing is, Chinese people are free to criticise the Australian government and will face no repercussions from doing so.

On the other hand, if they were to publicly (via the media etc) criticise their own government.......


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## satanoperca (10 February 2020)

Let me put this simple using just pure logic.
1. Chinese govnuts will never be truthful, they need to manage 1,300,000,000 peoples emtions and expectation. Truth hurts
2. The CCP have taken extrodionary measure to control this virus? Why?
3. I think they know more about this virus but dont want to come clean due to saving face. Dumb arse approach. The truth always reveals itself, just takes time.

So let me paint a simple and viable scenario. 
The ccp constructed a p4 med lab fir the public purpose of researching infectious diseases.
Part of this facility wasvto research diseases that could be weaponise.
Not necessarily to create weapons but maybe to defend against other countries creating biological weapons. More than feasible.
So ib researching said weapons, one gets out.
Know the ccp realise this, it was a fuckup. So they go into quick defense, locking diwn 50,000,000 people. 

Why?
The international economic implication to their country could be massive, setting them back decades in development. 

Lose of face to their own people and the rest of the world.

So while i believe is the case abd this virus over time will have a higher death rate than the common flu.

I have to wonder how many other countries are developing biological weapons that if released by purpose or accident could wipe out humans.

So if i was the ccp, come clean, set a president to stop weaponising viruses


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## sptrawler (10 February 2020)

Aussie ingenuity comes to the fore on the Diamond Princess, they had a case of wine delivered by a drone.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-drone-delivers-wine-couple-princess-diamond-013255074.html


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## qldfrog (10 February 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Let me put this simple using just pure logic.
> 1. Chinese govnuts will never be truthful, they need to manage 1,300,000,000 peoples emtions and expectation. Truth hurts
> 2. The CCP have taken extrodionary measure to control this virus? Why?
> 3. I think they know more about this virus but dont want to come clean due to saving face. Dumb arse approach. The truth always reveals itself, just takes time.
> ...



My thoughts exactly:
Virus is an escapee: genetic sequence point to SARS virus plus 2 HIV bits..CRISP...
Once released accidentally, the CCP is informed and deploy extraordinary measures as it is aware of the potency.
These obviously are not successful.
To be honest, a lost cause from the start
Now, it is out so no point pointing finger
If they could admit the lab origin, we could prepare for higher genetic mutations than a wild virus
And we could have a better idea of the infected/sick/dead ratio.
These are not great news and the impact starts being felt.it will ripple down the stock market. The low AUD vs USD is not a mystery


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## DB008 (11 February 2020)

Tuesday - 11th Feb 2020 AM Update

Total confirmed - 40,645
Total Died - 910
Total Recovered - 3,578

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


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## sptrawler (11 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> My thoughts exactly:
> Virus is an escapee: genetic sequence point to SARS virus plus 2 HIV bits..CRISP...
> Once released accidentally, the CCP is informed and deploy extraordinary measures as it is aware of the potency.
> These obviously are not successful.
> ...



It doesn't at this stage appear to have a very high mortality rate, for a man made super virus, but the infection rate is very startling.
Mortality rate appears to be 1% and seems to be those with an underlying respiratory problem.


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## Logique (11 February 2020)

Early days I suppose. Almost all of the mortalities so far seem to have been in China





	

		
			
		

		
	
 E


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## qldfrog (11 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It doesn't at this stage appear to have a very high mortality rate, for a man made super virus, but the infection rate is very startling.
> Mortality rate appears to be 1% and seems to be those with an underlying respiratory problem.



I would not rely too much on the story about underlying condition etc.the GP and health workers dying daily there are neither elderly nor frail.
But yes it is not a death sentence, the real issue is and remain an unknown
How many in hospital and how many deaths per infected..
And china has not given us reliable figures there
The cruise boat situation is interesting for that .
That will determine if hospital system collapses as in Wuhan or not


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## IFocus (11 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> That will determine if hospital system collapses as in Wuhan or not




Good point if the contagion gets out of hand to a point to overwhelm the systems to care for those infected then the mortality rates may well rise.

The numbers coming out of China in no way reflects reality which is quite worrying.


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## sptrawler (11 February 2020)

A good article on the virus and expected outcomes.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...-in-australia-the-different-diseases/11950358


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## Dona Ferentes (11 February 2020)

a semi sensible ABC article (written in their annoying style)
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...-in-australia-the-different-diseases/11950358

I hope it can shed some light for people to get an understanding:







> the question remains: with thousands of Australians dying every year from influenza, and no coronavirus deaths reported in Australia, why are we still so worried about it?





> "We all have very little immunity with coronavirus, which means it will run through a population. The virus has all the tools to spread wildly."





> In Australia, patients would be isolated in a single room and with their own toilet, which would not be the case in China where hospitals and medical professionals had been swamped.
> 
> Dr Mackay said his understanding was about 20-25 per cent of coronavirus cases in China were considered severe. He said in the hundreds of cases outside China, the severity was "mild to very mild", and there were more resources put into treating the affected patients.


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## DB008 (12 February 2020)

Wednesday - 12th Feb 2020 AM Update

Total confirmed - 43,144
Total Died - 1,018
Total Recovered - 4,347


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## Dona Ferentes (12 February 2020)

The World Health Organisation has admitted a vaccine for the coronavirus won’t be ready for 18 months, as it renames the disease *Covid-19*.

As the death toll in China climbed to over 1,000, and confirmed cases more than 42,000 worldwide, WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said it would take time to develop an effective vaccine.

”The development of vaccines and therapeutic is one important part of the research agenda but it’s only one part. They will take time to develop,” said Mr Tedros.


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## Kachina (12 February 2020)

This is really serious with the flu season approaching here at home, is got me wondering how they are going to market a general flu vaccine with this Corona virus floating around!. It really bothers me that both Labor and Liberal politicians are going on about Chinese racism and people not going to their resteraunts which is a concern but this is Australia "not China" and they should be more focused on how to protect us. In reality here at home all the polices are concerned with is how to protect their on going money supply generated by Chinese wealth down under, not surprising seeing they have sold us out like many similar western country's years ago!. Scomo should really look at more travel restrictions right now, the Corona virus could easily get into Australia via the back door from Bali. I won't be going to a Chinese resteraunt Scomo or on a Quantas plane anytime soon!.


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## qldfrog (12 February 2020)

From the WHO chief yesterday
"If the world doesn't want to wake up and consider this enemy virus as public enemy number 1, I don't think we will learn from our lessons."
And this is now the COVID-19
Maybe need to rename the thread


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## Dona Ferentes (13 February 2020)

*China's Hubei province reports 242 new coronavirus deaths and 14,840 new cases*

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...e-reports-242-new-coronavirus-deaths/11961602


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## IFocus (13 February 2020)

Anyone going to Bali?

1.7 mil Chinese visit every year the Indos are terrible at covering up bad news


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## sptrawler (13 February 2020)

IFocus said:


> Anyone going to Bali?
> 
> 1.7 mil Chinese visit every year the Indos are terrible at covering up bad news



My sister is over there, I will ask her when she gets back, or if she gets back.


----------



## DB008 (14 February 2020)

DB008 said:


> Wednesday - 12th Feb 2020 AM Update
> 
> Total confirmed - 43,144
> Total Died - 1,018
> Total Recovered - 4,347




WHO arrives in China and more real numbers start to come out. Shows how the Chinese were lying all along, there might even be some more towns which have been trying to cover up the real toll.

Friday 14th Feb
Total confirmed - 60,363
Total Died - 1,370
Total Recovered - 6,293

If the title can be changed to COVID-19 l'm more than happy for Joe to change it.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (14 February 2020)

DB008 said:


> WHO arrives in China and more real numbers start to come out.



New Hubei governor moving in. Out with the old and you get a new set of numbers (no diff to CEO change here, really) .


----------



## IFocus (14 February 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> New Hubei governor moving in. Out with the old and you get a new set of numbers (no diff to CEO change here, really) .




The cover up started from Beijing so I expect the old governor to be found guilty of corruption wheeled out the back and shot


----------



## bellenuit (15 February 2020)

A Chinese tourist in France has died, becoming the first person to die from the novel coronavirus in Europe. Follow live updates https://cnn.it/2HpjSJ1


----------



## bellenuit (16 February 2020)

*Coronavirus Live Updates: After Hundreds Leave Cruise Ship, American Passenger Tests Positive  *

*https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/16/...show&region=TOP_BANNER&context=storyline_menu*


----------



## bellenuit (16 February 2020)

I think calling it COVID-19 so that people stop referring to it as the Wuhan Virus or the Chinese Corona Virus was a mistake. They should have called it COVID-11 instead, or in Roman Numerals COVID-XI.

*Xi Jinping was aware of the deadly coronavirus much earlier than believed, a new speech reveals*

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/...s/news-story/ed27370709c906b77bb7ae00e2b38ed8


----------



## Knobby22 (16 February 2020)

I was going to mention we all at work went to a Chinese dumpling restaurant on Friday for lunch.
Only half full.
No Chinese eating there.


----------



## macca (16 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I was going to mention we all at work went to a Chinese dumpling restaurant on Friday for lunch.
> Only half full.
> No Chinese eating there.




The newspapers are suggesting people stop being "racist" and return to their local chinese takeaway, I also noticed that there were no Chinese people there in the photo


----------



## qldfrog (16 February 2020)

When your feed news is not ABC but your wechat familly friends and colleagues in China, you have a pretty good understanding of the issue and WTF would you risk it going to any restaurant, chinese or not.
This is only racist for the ABC, now racism wise, i wonder what will happen in the muslim concentration camps, imagine once it starts there....


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

This article shows how resilient people are.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...ying-to-combat-coronavirus-isolation/11966744


----------



## Dona Ferentes (17 February 2020)

Around 7-8% of the world's population is self-isolating, at present.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Around 7-8% of the world's population is self-isolating, at present.



It's pretty amazing stuff, it will be interesting to see if they can contain it, very good for testing isolation procedures currently in place.
It will also be a very good wake up call for cruise lines, they do have a fairly rigorous cleaning regime, but it will definitely give some info for changes that may or may not be required. Possibly to air distribution, filtration and cleaning procedures, it will certainly be testing the crew on the Diamond Princess.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...onavirus-lockdown-as-americans-leave/11970872
From the article:
"_We don't actually know the full extent of disease, the spectrum of disease — how much is mild, how much is severe," she said.

"We've never seen an animal coronavirus cross into humans and then spread.

"We've had two other events of coronaviruses going from animals into humans, but not spreading further.

"I think that we need to know what the animal host is, because these kinds of things can happen again_."


----------



## IFocus (17 February 2020)

Would the cruise ships be sharing the aircond though all the cabins?


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

IFocus said:


> Would the cruise ships be sharing the aircond though all the cabins?



I would guess it's a chilled water system, where the air is circulated and then a return air is caught in a common area, then recirculated.
It would be better for those with a balcony, at least they could leave their door open.
https://heinenhopman.com/en/cruise-...ise-ship-air-conditioning/absorption-chiller/


----------



## macca (17 February 2020)

IFocus said:


> Would the cruise ships be sharing the aircond though all the cabins?




They claimed not so in a news article on the weekend, all cabins have fresh air they say.

I suppose they suck fresh air into a large vent, push it down into the cabins with a completely separate exit vent which expels the stale air outside.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

macca said:


> They claimed not so in a news article on the weekend, all cabins have fresh air they say.
> 
> I suppose they suck fresh air into a large vent, push it down into the cabins with a completely separate exit vent which expels the stale air outside.



It would be interesting to know exactly, because there is always a lot of suction when you try to open an external door, it feels like a seal.


----------



## DB008 (18 February 2020)

Tuesday 18th Feb

Total confirmed - 71,902
Total Died - 1,775
Total Recovered - 11,396


----------



## DB008 (18 February 2020)

Coronavirus Epidemic Update 19: Treatment and Medication Clinical Trials


​


----------



## Tink (18 February 2020)

All notices regarding the virus in government buildings and websites.

If you have booked the Grand Prix or any travel prior, you are insured.


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2020)

An article that reinforces what we have been saying, since the outbreak of the virus, PEOPLE DON"T WASH THEIR HANDS.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the...o-don-t-wash-their-hands-20200217-p541lp.html
From the article:
_Many nasty bugs, including many serious respiratory infections, are shed in the stool of infected people. The germs get onto the toilet seat, and then onto the hands of anyone else who touches the seat.


If that person touches their mouth before washing their hands, the bugs can enter their body and cause disease.

SARS may have spread through this route. COVID-19, the novel coronavirus that has infected more than 70,000 people around the world, is closely related to SARS and probably spreads in a similar manner, experts say.

That makes washing your hands after using the toilet essential. Nurses and doctors who treated SARS patients were less likely to catch the disease if they washed their hands regularly, studies suggest.

Unfortunately, many healthcare workers are not great at washing their hands either. Hand-washing compliance dropped from 94 per cent at one major Sydney hospital to just 30 per centwhen human auditors stopped monitoring people’s behaviour_.
But don't overdo handwashing. Experts recommend soap and water instead of harsh antibacterials.
Your hands are home to a community of healthy bacteria, which depend on the skin's natural oils to survive.
*When you wash your hands with soap and water, viruses and bacteria that do not belong on the skin get washed away. But healthy bacteria are capable of hanging on and surviving*.
Overusing harsh antibacterial soaps may kill those healthy bugs, creating more room for unhealthy bugs to take hold.


This has become a BIG issue, when nursing was taught in hospitals, it was hammered into the nurses to continually wash their hands.
Now with the advent of cheap disposable gloves and a training being done remote from the workplace, it probably has become less re-enforced, well I know it has.
Also as the article says, the antibacterial lotions are not as good as soap and water, people aren't correctly informed of this, the article is very well put together.IMO (or I should say, in the wife's opinion)


----------



## Dona Ferentes (20 February 2020)

The cruise ship is turning out to be a giant Petri dish

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20200219_42/


----------



## Tink (20 February 2020)

Australia is expected to extend its China travel ban for another week amid ongoing fears over the spread of the coronavirus, locking out hundreds of thousands of students and tourists from entering the country.

The move, which will be debated by cabinet's national security committee on Thursday or Friday, is set to compound the economic impact of the virus and frustrate the Chinese government as it looks to bring the fall-out from the virus under control.

The extension is expected to last another week from Saturday, taking the time of the travel ban out to a month and preventing all non-Australian residents travelling from China from entering the country until February 29.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...vel-ban-for-another-week-20200219-p542bo.html


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2020)

At least the Government didn't give in and let people come straight back to the Country. If it gets into here, we will all have to go bush, probably move in with Rumpy or Macca.


----------



## macca (20 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> At least the Government didn't give in and let people come straight back to the Country. If it gets into here, we will all have to go bush, probably move in with Rumpy or Macca.




No good coming here SP, I live near a tourist hot spot that has up to 500 Asian tourist a Day visit and all the staff steering the boats etc are all local Aussies.

Maybe we need to be wearing masks when we go to the shopping centre here


----------



## bluekelah (20 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It's pretty amazing stuff, it will be interesting to see if they can contain it, very good for testing isolation procedures currently in place.
> It will also be a very good wake up call for cruise lines, they do have a fairly rigorous cleaning regime, but it will definitely give some info for changes that may or may not be required. Possibly to air distribution, filtration and cleaning procedures, it will certainly be testing the crew on the Diamond Princess.
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...onavirus-lockdown-as-americans-leave/11970872
> From the article:
> ...




They will be unable to contain it as it spreads like flu. Historically quarantine procedures dont work for flu so no reason why it would work for COVID19. Might slow down the spread though.


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2020)

bluekelah said:


> They will be unable to contain it as it spreads like flu. Historically quarantine procedures dont work for flu so no reason why it would work for COVID19. Might slow down the spread though.



All good practise for when it is really needed, 1% fatality rate isnt pandemic stuff, but the contageous rate is high.
So all good practice.
Using phone excuse errors.lol


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2020)

bluekelah said:


> They will be unable to contain it as it spreads like flu. Historically quarantine procedures dont work for flu so no reason why it would work for COVID19. Might slow down the spread though.



By the way, how does flu spread?


----------



## qldfrog (21 February 2020)

We are in a delaying tactic allowing the refinement of treatment and a vaccine within a year and a half.don't think more can be done.
 i expect to have it or its mutated version within 2 y.
 will it become seasonal as the "common" flu or will it just spread over the world and die?
I noticed that qantas is reaching highs whereas all airlines are offering killing deals... literally?


----------



## Dona Ferentes (21 February 2020)

a _Global Times_ report ... said a central Beijing hospital reported 36 new cases.

The report said those infected at Fuxing Hospital in Xicheng district were eight medical workers, nine cleaning staff and 19 patients along with their families, leading many to fear a potential explosion in infection numbers in the capital.


----------



## macca (21 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> By the way, how does flu spread?




Much the same way as COVID19, air, touch or deep tongue kissing 

Every February I buy a bottle of Blackmores Vit D 1000 x 200 capsules, take one a day, works better than a flu jab but can still have jab if I wish.

Eat oranges etc for Vit C or take a Vit C supp.

Been doing it for 10 years and I have not had a cold or flu since, why did I start? used to have the sniffles for months each winter


----------



## fergee (21 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> We are in a delaying tactic allowing the refinement of treatment and a vaccine within a year and a half.don't think more can be done.
> i expect to have it or its mutated version within 2 y.
> will it become seasonal as the "common" flu or will it just spread over the world and die?
> I noticed that qantas is reaching highs whereas all airlines are offering killing deals... literally?




I have noticed the price of flights I monitor from Japan to NZ/Aus have dropped 10-15% since this started getting media attention.


----------



## fergee (21 February 2020)

bluekelah said:


> They will be unable to contain it as it spreads like flu. Historically quarantine procedures dont work for flu so no reason why it would work for COVID19. Might slow down the spread though.




We can see this happening in Japan right now. It doesn't help when the authorities are totally incompetent either. Big numbers will be printed in Japan very soon they have dropped ball in a big way letting passengers off the cruise ship to early and failing to use proper procedure whilst onboard said ship. I have heard reports of guys in Haz-suites eating rice balls whilst on board.

The FX markets are pricing it in also. USDJPY has had a very strong break out to the upside. This was caused by the over reliance on the supply chain with china which has now been disrupted. I suspect it is also because of the exponential rate the virus is spreading here and the toll it will take on the economy in the near to medium term. Japans economy, which is on the verge of recession anyway, will be a major casualty of this "pandemic".


----------



## qldfrog (22 February 2020)

Social reaction to fear with mob attack against virus refugees


----------



## qldfrog (22 February 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...d/news-story/9b4ddb9a2ab9f5a354a032a0d3213637
If confirmed  , it is worrying as recovered patients might potentially remain contagious?


----------



## qldfrog (22 February 2020)

And serious outbreaks in Italy Iran and South Korea
https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-i...res-after-covid-19-cases-quadruple/a-52467865
To be honest, i think that's it, all above recent cases above not between Chinese people...


----------



## qldfrog (22 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Social reaction to fear with mob attack against virus refugees



 link failed
Attacks against quarantine buses in Ukraine.google


----------



## fergee (22 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> link failed
> Attacks against quarantine buses in Ukraine.google



I saw that, those poor people, its bloody insanity!


----------



## basilio (23 February 2020)

This isn't good news...

*Fears coronavirus quarantine regime is compromised as 27 day incubation period detected in man in China's Hubei Province*

*Key points:*

Chinese authorities say a 70-year-old man in China's Hubei Province was infected with coronavirus but did not show symptoms for 27 days
The Australian Department of Health says they are watching overseas developments closely and their emergency response plans are flexible and scalable
A second patient has died of the infection in Italy, as an outbreak spread in the north of the country

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-22/27-day-incubation-period-coronavirus-china-covid-19/11991604


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 February 2020)

basilio said:


> This isn't good news...
> 
> *Fears coronavirus quarantine regime is compromised as 27 day incubation period detected in man in China's Hubei Province*
> 
> ...



If this isn't an outlier, or erroneous assessment, then the whole model of control is out the window.


----------



## qldfrog (23 February 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> If this isn't an outlier, or erroneous assessment, then the whole model of control is out the window.



And even as an outliner, we would then be selecting these trends as a result of the quarantines.
But i think genuinely as much as possible has been done, now we can see it spreading thru pilgrims.. Islam/Christian imagine the spread on theJerusalem wall or in Mecca
Luckily it seems confirmed as relatively benign for most so will give an economic shock and a surge in death for a year or 2 but not a civilization ending pandemic.just hoping few of my loved ones inc myself will be among the casualties


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> And even as an outliner..



most observed incubation data was 2-14 days. If it can lurk undetected for longer, then the sheer mathematics of contact might render existing measures ineffective


qldfrog said:


> But i think genuinely as much as possible has been done...



According to the manual. But like generals, fighting the last war?


qldfrog said:


> .. it seems confirmed as relatively benign for most so will give an economic shock and a surge in death for a year or 2 but not a civilization ending pandemic...



...seems to be taking out the older ones and those with pre-existing compromised systems (often the same cohort). But the fear is if it manifests in young and healthy and of reproductive age. then the demographics get skewed.

Actually, "rapid respiratory failure because your lungs being unable to transport enough oxygen to the rest of your body" isn't a bad way to go (IMHO).


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2020)

If it gets into Africa, there could be problems, HIV is still pretty rampant there from what I've read.


----------



## againsthegrain (23 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If it gets into Africa, there could be problems, HIV is still pretty rampant there from what I've read.



I
If you look at it from a unbiased and unemotional view
it is like a body cleansing itself of weak and diseased cells to create new healthy ones.  We keep banging on overpopulation and how we can't sustain it and nature might just have presented a way through the lottery of life to curb our problem


----------



## macca (23 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If it gets into Africa, there could be problems, HIV is still pretty rampant there from what I've read.




Not just Africa, any country that does not have good medical services is a potential bomb.

India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, North Korea, Mongolia, Siberia and most of Africa are potential epidemic locations.

Rural China could also lose millions of people, their are just sooo many people in China the numbers could be horrific.

A terrible thing that could either become like the common cold or could kill millions of people who are malnourished or lacking medical help


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2020)

macca said:


> Not just Africa, any country that does not have good medical services is a potential bomb.
> 
> India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, North Korea, Mongolia, Siberia and most of Africa are potential epidemic locations.
> 
> ...



As you say, there are plenty of places where it will wreak havoc.


----------



## basilio (23 February 2020)

And what makes the US or UK or Australia so special we could avoid or handle an epidemic ? 
How many additional serious  illnesses cases could our hospital system handle before  it cracked up ?  Hundreds ? Thousands ?   Consider a city like Melbourne/Sydney with 50,000 infections of which  10,000 require hospitalization.  Do you seriously think we can handle it ? 

What will happen in the US where  single medical incident is enough to bankrupt more than half the population ? Perhaps people who come down with a severe case of coronavirus  will be taken straight to a special mortuary because sure as hell they won't be seen in a hospital

South Korea looks awfully like China about a month ago.


----------



## macca (23 February 2020)

basilio said:


> And what makes the US or UK or Australia so special we could avoid or handle an epidemic ?
> How many additional serious  illnesses cases could our hospital system handle before  it cracked up ?  Hundreds ? Thousands ?   Consider a city like Melbourne/Sydney with 50,000 infections of which  10,000 require hospitalization.  Do you seriously think we can handle it ?
> 
> What will happen in the US where  single medical incident is enough to bankrupt more than half the population ? Perhaps people who come down with a severe case of coronavirus  will be taken straight to a special mortuary because sure as hell they won't be seen in a hospital
> ...




Agreed, Oz has had so little experience in this situation.

We do have an advantage in that most people are well fed if they choose to be. Plenty of healthy food available at ridiculously cheap prices when compared with other countries.

I do not know what they treat it with, I read that it is common cold related so we have a problem because we cannot cure that.

Perhaps 2 pills and go to bed will be the recommendation


----------



## qldfrog (23 February 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/...b/news-story/0bc7c4f52892eb2e51e788b8e2e45c07
Further confirmation the virus is a lab escapee as i mentioned a while back


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 February 2020)

The good news is that according to the statistics, almost a third of those infected have now recovered. 78,823 infected and 23,380 recovered.

The bad news is there have now been 602 cases in South Korea, 135 in Japan and it seems now 22 in Australia. The number of cases outside China is now escalating it seems:

More than 100 each in South Korea and Japan.

50 - 99 each in Singapore, Italy, Hong Kong

10 - 49 each in Thailand, USA, Iran, Taiwan, Australia, Malaysia, Germany, Vietnam, United Arab Emirates, France, Macau

1 - 9 cases each in Canada, UK, Philippines, India, Russia, Spain, Lebanon, Nepal, Cambodia, Israel, Belgium, Finland, Sweden, Egypt, Sri Lanka

Total outside China is now 1887.

Concerning is that looking at that list, well there's quite a few places which either have a huge population themselves, are major tourist destinations or major transit points. So the possibility of further rapid spread would seem at least plausible.


----------



## basilio (24 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The good news is that according to the statistics, almost a third of those infected have now recovered. 78,823 infected and 23,380 recovered.
> 
> The bad news is there have now been 602 cases in South Korea, 135 in Japan and it seems now 22 in Australia. The number of cases outside China is now escalating it seems:
> 
> ...




On Jan 23rd a month ago  China had recognised  615 cases. Where is it now?








https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2020)

Wow


----------



## basilio (24 February 2020)

They have certainly got the stop and check system down to a fine art.

Makes one wonder how other countries will attempt to  control the spread of the virus.
...................................................
Just realised from the tweet that this is in fact a training video. Explains possibility how it has been released.  Doesn't change the reality of what is done/intended to be done.


----------



## IFocus (24 February 2020)

Pretty concerning what the expectations are / could be if that's the training and preparation perhaps the virus is a lot more severe than what the punters are being told.

I hear the government here are issuing wet lettuce to immigration offices for the arrival of Chinese students


----------



## bellenuit (24 February 2020)

Good analysis from a UK based guy who seems to know what he is talking about.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 February 2020)

I see that Italy now has 230 cases, this time yesterday it was less than half that, and that South Korea is now at 833.

I'm aware that the information is readily available so I'm just posting it here for easy reference days or weeks from now to track the increase.

China = 77,150
South Korea = 833
Italy = 230
Japan = 154
Singapore = 89
Hong Kong = 79
Iran = 61
Thailand = 35
USA = 35
Taiwan = 30
Australia = 22
Malaysia = 22
Germany = 16
United Arab Emirates = 16
UK = 13
France = 12
Macau = 10
Canada = 9
Philippines = 3
India = 3
Russia = 2
Spain = 2
Lebanon = 1
Nepal = 1
Cambodia = 1
Israel = 1
Belgium = 1
Finland = 1
Sweden = 1
Egypt = 1
Sri Lanka = 1


----------



## Dona Ferentes (25 February 2020)

*Comorbidity* is a word we will probably hear a lot more of, if this is not contained and the scenarios of transmission and quarantine breakdown come to pass.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (25 February 2020)

the numbers at top of page (a very narrow and unscientific poll) are changing, with much more of a tilt towards WWE scenario

*Will the "Corona Virus" turn into a worldwide epidemic or fizzle out*


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2020)

I think the real problem begins, if it gets a hold in Africa, imagine if it mutates with some of the horrible diseases there. The transmission skills of this thing, with the fatality ability of some really nasty disease, doesn't bear thinking about IMO.


----------



## qldfrog (25 February 2020)

I have been unable twice to properly add the link to the pdf papers highlighting the sars/hiv sequences in the coronavirus so I try to download and attach the pdf..but it is too big
I just put it on a google drive:

tell me if you have trouble to access
It has been widthdrawn yet I am to reada single clear reason why except the obvious....;
this is what I base my "conspiracy" theory about it being an escapee from the unique Chinese lab (in Wuhan !!) working on such nasties.
Make your own mind but you are NOT supposed to agree with that, it is well known it is coming from the snakes sorry, the bats sorry, the pangolin sorry....
Then it is up to: what was it designed (if designed) for  and what is its mutability if man made, I expect more unstability so more trouble to design a vaccine


----------



## basilio (25 February 2020)

Good find QFrog.. 

I don't know enough to appreciate the nuances.  It would be interesting for someone with the appropriate understandings to evaluate the paper.


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2020)

Fujifilm shares jump on news Japan may use their drug to treat coronavirus.
https://www.thestar.com.my/news/reg...ti-flu-drug-avigan-to-treat-covid-19-patients


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2020)

The ABC has a how to guide, for corona virus.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...-happens-when-a-pandemic-is-declared/11998540


----------



## joeno (25 February 2020)

Sigh. People really can't talk about anything with the word "China" without talking absolute unadulterated lying slandering sh**. Yeah yeah. They lied there's actually 100s of millions dead in China already. Also Muslims are getting roasted as we speak as bats aren't tasty enough.

You really expect despite the racism, unfair accusations, absolute unequal treatment of China / Chinese people / "the government", gaslighting that you'll receive a "better attitude" in the future? You treat kindness and heavy attempts to contain the virus from the rest of the world with disdain. All you are doing is setting precedent that in the future the Chinese will act with *actual* impudence and aggression towards the west.

And don't bother calling me some government puppet / paid shill just because i have a different opinion. I'll admit it, they are paying me millions to argue with people on aussiestockforums.


----------



## banco (25 February 2020)

Always funny when Chinese in the west tell us how hard done by China is and what a great country it is while they would rather die than liver there.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (25 February 2020)

banco said:


> Always funny.



Han chauvinism.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (25 February 2020)

Gotta luv the ABC
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020...-happens-when-a-pandemic-is-declared/11998540
saying "don't panic" but casually drops this:


> ... preparation, not panic, is what's needed now.
> "We need to think about whether you have enough medication and *essential foods such as canned foods, some pasta or food that can give us fibre, carbohydrate and protein for two weeks*, if things were to interrupt the supply chain of food," Professor Mackay says.


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Gotta luv the ABC
> https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020...-happens-when-a-pandemic-is-declared/11998540
> saying "don't panic" but casually drops this:



Obviously a 5 minutes of fame moment. IMO
Doesn't macca's source all their meat here, we should be fine, just need uber eats to pick it up if you are house bound.


----------



## fergee (26 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I see that Italy now has 230 cases, this time yesterday it was less than half that, and that South Korea is now at 833.
> 
> I'm aware that the information is readily available so I'm just posting it here for easy reference days or weeks from now to track the increase.
> 
> ...




Iran is the country from that list that really sticks out for me.

Is there a lot of tourism, students or business travel between Iran and China?

also the exponential growth in Italy is interesting its a country who statistics I would trust more than most on that list.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 February 2020)

joeno said:


> Sigh. People really can't talk about anything with the word "China" without talking absolute unadulterated lying slandering sh**.



The discussion is about a virus.

The virus started, and has thus far primarily been an issue in, China.

Would anyone be saying things much differently if it was in Austria, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Hungary, India or anywhere else?

It's simply an observed reality that China has what appears to be a crisis going on. No government locks down entire cities and suspends a significant portion of their national economy for the sake of it after all and the same observation would apply if it were happening anywhere from Qatar to Chile.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 February 2020)

fergee said:


> Iran is the country from that list that really sticks out for me.
> 
> Is there a lot of tourism, students or business travel between Iran and China?




I don't know about Iran - China travel but of other places in the Middle East, Doha (Qatar) and Dubai (UAE) are both key transit airports and stopovers for passengers flying to and from UK / Europe with UAE having 13 cases thus far which does ring some alarm bells as to potential spread.


----------



## DB008 (26 February 2020)

Wednesday 26th Feb update

Total confirmed - 80,407
Total deaths - 2,708
Total recovered - 27, 878

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6​


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## basilio (26 February 2020)

I think it is very strange that Indonesia has so far reported no inciduence of the Covid-19 virus.
Doesn't quite add up.. Check this out

*Why are there no reported cases of coronavirus in Indonesia?*
Experts say there could be undetected coronavirus cases in Indonesia, a claim that has angered officials in Jakarta.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/02/reported-cases-coronavirus-indonesia-200218112232304.html


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## IFocus (26 February 2020)

basilio said:


> I think it is very strange that Indonesia has so far reported no inciduence of the Covid-19 virus.
> Doesn't quite add up.. Check this out
> 
> *Why are there no reported cases of coronavirus in Indonesia?*
> ...




On the surfing scene over there plenty of guys believing they have had it.


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## IFocus (26 February 2020)

Anyone seen what the treatment is for the virus?

I haven't seen much.

Did read how your own immune system is part of the problem in causing death.

As it looks like its going to affect us all at some level maybe a discussion on treatment / care every chance the health services will get overwhelmed.


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## bluekelah (27 February 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Good analysis from a UK based guy who seems to know what he is talking about.





He is my favourite youtuber right now. Dr. Campbell is a nurse by profession but does mostly training and teaching now. Knows what he is talking about.


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## bluekelah (27 February 2020)

IFocus said:


> Anyone seen what the treatment is for the virus?
> 
> I haven't seen much.
> 
> ...




The mild cases is just like a common cold or flu, i get cough and fever couple days your are well again.
Severe cases ~15-20% will need oxygen supplementation to breath and maybe 2-3% will need artificial breathing respirator machines or they are dead.


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

Catching more than once would suck. Apparently the antibodies you produce don't last long


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

Two stories from survivors. 
Ones immune system didn't fight it off. The other suffered only flu symptoms.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...id19-survivors-on-fighting-the-virus-12459198


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

Some practical tips for when it hits:

China is currently burning money as they think it could be contaminated with covid 19.
So don't touch your face after handling money.

It's in sht so public toilets are best stayed away from.

Careful cleaning your phone but be aware that it's going from hand to face. Clean your hands.


> Chemicals found in household cleaners and even soap can damage the screen on your device.
> 
> Disinfectants wear down screens' "oleophobic coating," which is designed to keep them fingerprint- and moisture-free, according to Apple's website. For that reason, Apple says you should avoid cleaning products and abrasive materials that could affect the coating and make your iPhone more vulnerable to scratches. Similarly, Samsung suggests that Galaxy users avoid using Windex or window cleaners with "strong chemicals" on screens




Cleaning with common household products can make a difference, according to the research, which also found that human coronaviruses "can be efficiently inactivated by surface disinfection procedures with 62-71% ethanol, 0.5% hydrogen peroxide or 0.1% sodium hypochlorite" or bleach within one minute.

I think n95 or p2 masks help protect against the virus. I'll check in store later. Pretty sure you can pick up a pack in Bunnings.

Basic hygiene wash hands, don't touch nose, mouth and face.


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## sptrawler (27 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Some practical tips for when it hits:
> 
> China is currently burning money as they think it could be contaminated with covid 19.
> So don't touch your face after handling money.
> ...



That moXJO is exactly right, it can't be reinforced enough, there is a much,much,much greater chance of catching it hand to mouth/nose/eyes, than inhaling airborne virus.
People just have poor personal hygiene, it is the perfect time for everyone to start good hand washing practices, use the trolley wipes at the supermarket, wash as soon as you get in the house,before touching food and all the other normal stuff as moXJO said.
It could be the difference between life and death, I kid you not.


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

I've been weight training for a month and a bit. Family got the flu and laid out, my symptoms were extremely mild. Barely noticed it. 
Generally when I'm in training my immune system seems very strong past the first 2 weeks.

Good idea to give your body the best chance before it hits Australia.


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

Good time to have enough cash to last 2 months minimum. 

Worth getting walk around hand sanitizer and keep cupboards stocked in a month or two time.
Best be reasonably prepared without going all out in a panic just yet. As news filters in, adjust tinfoil hat from there. But you don't want to be the one panic rushing the stores.

Still plenty of time to prep before it hits imo. And it may not be as bad as its made out anyway.


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## fergee (27 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Good time to have enough cash to last 2 months minimum.
> 
> Worth getting walk around hand sanitizer and keep cupboards stocked in a month or two time.
> Best be reasonably prepared without going all out in a panic just yet. As news filters in, adjust tinfoil hat from there. But you don't want to be the one panic rushing the stores.
> ...




Better to be safe than sorry.

Stocking up on vitamins and basic meds, cough syrup, ibuprofen etc.

Also video games, board games, books, netflix subscription etc to be able to kill 
time if stuck inside for more than a few days.


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## Dona Ferentes (27 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Some practical tips for when it hits:
> So don't touch your face after handling money.
> public toilets are best stayed away from.
> 
> ...



Also don't shake hands.

The WHO says the virus is transmitted by droplets, and only lives on surfaces for short periods, perhaps 30 minutes. Other health groups have questioned that, suggesting it can live much longer on surfaces. If you are concerned, wipe down surfaces you are going to touch on aeroplanes or other public spaces, such as hotel rooms.

Paper surgical masks are effective at keeping you from spreading disease if you are sick, but not effective at blocking you from ingesting virus. For that, health experts recommend an N95 respirator — a heavy-duty mask.

_- Johns Hopkins_


----------



## bluekelah (27 February 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Also don't shake hands.
> 
> The WHO says the virus is transmitted by droplets, and only lives on surfaces for short periods, perhaps 30 minutes. Other health groups have questioned that, suggesting it can live much longer on surfaces. If you are concerned, wipe down surfaces you are going to touch on aeroplanes or other public spaces, such as hotel rooms.
> 
> ...



WHO trying to downplay things. This virus like flu spreads via aerosol as well and highly probably oral faecal route as well. Has been published in medical literature already. So prep ur masks and supplies. Bunnings have run out of 'n95 mask types from 3M  though, gotta get it on eBay at double prices now.


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

They are still selling n95 masks in most ohs safety stores.  Pack of 12 is about $48. P2 masks should suffice/equivalent  (with carbon filters) the p2.5 filters out even more. Ok for walking around crowds/ or  light contact, not sure it it will do much if you have to care for a family member. Not an expert in the area though.
 Full face masks are in the hundreds.
Sperm suits are about $10 And are also selling out fast. They apparently can't get more stock for a bit.

Hand sanitizer is sold out in a lot of chemists. People were buying 10 each when I went to look.

Masks are selling fast


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

Lol already hit the headlines let the panic buying begin...

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...n/news-story/5c281d75c72afff8370996c77a95f7e0


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## bluekelah (27 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> They are still selling n95 masks in most ohs safety stores.  Pack of 12 is about $48. P2 masks should suffice/equivalent  (with carbon filters) the p2.5 filters out even more. Ok for walking around crowds/ or  light contact, not sure it it will do much if you have to care for a family member. Not an expert in the area though.
> Full face masks are in the hundreds.
> Sperm suits are about $10 And are also selling out fast. They apparently can't get more stock for a bit.
> 
> ...




hand sanitizer is easy to make at home. Just 2:1 ration of methylated spirits to hand gel. U can get methylated spirits at BigW for $5 a liter.


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

*Does hand sanitiser prevent the spread of coronavirus?*
Yes. Alcohol-based hand sanitisers are not only effective at preventing the transmission of coronavirus, but the transmission of viral infections in general. According to Public Health Canada, they need to have around 60 or 70 per cent alcohol content, which is the case for most over-the counter hand sanitisers.

I'm seeing a bit of mixed info on hand sanitizer. Some people posting it doesn't work. 
It does.


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

bluekelah said:


> hand sanitizer is easy to make at home. Just 2:1 ration of methylated spirits to hand gel. U can get methylated spirits at BigW for $5 a liter.



That's good to know.


----------



## UMike (27 February 2020)

DB008 said:


> Wednesday 26th Feb update
> 
> Total confirmed - 80,407
> Total deaths - 2,708
> ...



That's a stat I don't here of often....... Total recovered.


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## fergee (27 February 2020)

I think we just need more time till we all hear "total recovered" some more. This is so new I think we are in the dark a bit until some more time passes and more data can be gathered to get better stats coming into the light. I have a feeling there are a lot of unreported cases where people just get a "mild cold" or recover on there own so they don't get added to the infected population. 

As a percentage of the population being studied I think people who die from the virus will be far more accuratley represented than those who actually have had the virus then recover.


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## moXJO (27 February 2020)

fergee said:


> I think we just need more time till we all hear "total recovered" some more. This is so new I think we are in the dark a bit until some more time passes and more data can be gathered to get better stats coming into the light. I have a feeling there are a lot of unreported cases where people just get a "mild cold" or recover on there own so they don't get added to the infected population.
> 
> As a percentage of the population being studied I think people who die from the virus will be far more accuratley represented than those who actually have had the virus then recover.



Media is really hamming it up now. Most people just get flu like symptoms. Lucky for us we will get to see the effects play out in other countries that reach a saturation point. Can then decided if we need to panic.


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## Smurf1976 (27 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Media is really hamming it up now. Most people just get flu like symptoms. Lucky for us we will get to see the effects play out in other countries that reach a saturation point. Can then decided if we need to panic.




Agreed in a medical sense.

In terms of financial markets and shortages of goods etc though well it seems akin to someone screaming "fire" in a crowded cinema or other such place. It's somewhat irrelevant whether or not there's actually a fire - if everyone's rushing to the exits then the biggest risk to you is being trampled to death not being burnt in the non-existent fire.


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2020)

The risk relationship is interesting.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/
From the article:
*COVID-19 Fatality Rate by AGE:*
*Death Rate = (number of deaths / number of cases) = probability of dying if infected by the virus (%). This probability differs depending on the age group. The percentage shown below does NOT represent in any way the share of deaths by age group. Rather, it represents, for a person in a given age group, the risk of dying if infected with COVID-19.

AGE
DEATH RATE*
80+ years old
14.8%
70-79 years old
8.0%
60-69 years old
3.6%
50-59 years old
1.3%
40-49 years old
0.4%
30-39 years old
0.2%
20-29 years old
0.2%
10-19 years old
0.2%
0-9 years old
no fatalities


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## sptrawler (28 February 2020)

fergee said:


> I think we just need more time till we all hear "total recovered" some more. This is so new I think we are in the dark a bit until some more time passes and more data can be gathered to get better stats coming into the light. I have a feeling there are a lot of unreported cases where people just get a "mild cold" or recover on there own so they don't get added to the infected population.
> 
> As a percentage of the population being studied I think people who die from the virus will be far more accuratley represented than those who actually have had the virus then recover.



Don't be complacent, a vaccine will arrive, so don't get it in the first place IMO


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## Knobby22 (28 February 2020)

Personally I  am terrified.
My Mum, my parents in law, my eldest sister who is a severe asthmatic,  my family, myself also an asthmatic.

We are lucky we are in Australia and so am more likely to control this and if we get it, decent medical care. Thankfully Morrison appears to have learnt from the bushfires.

Also, we are most likely to get the vaccine as the University of Queensland with CSL are the most advanced in developing one.
It is only a possibility though, No vaccine has ever been developed for the common cold.

In the Ukraine some tourists came in a bus and the locals attacked them throwing rocks. If the virus spread in that country, poorest in Europe, and in a war with Russia, the citizens could expect little medical help.

There is still some hope, the biggest in my view that the virus will attenuate as it spreads

All in all   I think a lot of us are struggling with the full reality of the situation.


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## qldfrog (28 February 2020)

bluekelah said:


> hand sanitizer is easy to make at home. Just 2:1 ration of methylated spirits to hand gel. U can get methylated spirits at BigW for $5 a liter.



I was wondering if methanol was the right alcool used in these.good tip, it makes sense, did not want to waste even cheap vodka


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## qldfrog (28 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> There is still some hope, the biggest in my view that the virus will attenuate as it spreads



That is wishful thinking it could very well get the other way, natural selection will remove strains which are very lethal but we are far from there.plenty of room to be much nastiér so you roll the dice.the Iranian strain is actually a worry as either more deadly .or the virus is already widespread.talk about cardiac effects there.
So much unknown.but plenty of reasons to be genuinely scared for anyone above 70 or weak relatives or loved one.Coupled with overextended stock markets and bubble economics, this could be the black swan with no fed can fight



Knobby22 said:


> All in all I think a lot of us are struggling with the full reality of the situation.


----------



## Humid (28 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The risk relationship is interesting.
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/
> From the article:
> *COVID-19 Fatality Rate by AGE:*
> ...




I hope Tinhat isn’t behind this


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## basilio (28 February 2020)

A more measured approach to how people should be dealing the risk of the Corona Virus.
IMV well balanced
 
* Explainer: how worried should I be about coronavirus in Australia? *
Despite the lack of cases, people are still concerned about coronavirus in Australia. Here’s what you need to know
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ed-should-i-be-about-coronavirus-in-australia


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## basilio (28 February 2020)

So the Government announces a planned response to the threat of a Covid-19 epidemic in Oz.
How well equipped is our current system to implement such a response ?
Well worth checking out what we would probably know instinctively. And don't imagine the private health system offers any substantial resources.

* Australian doctors warn of overwhelmed public health system in event of coronavirus pandemic *
Health experts say Australia’s hospitals are already operating at capacity and there is no room for coronavirus surge

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ealth-system-in-event-of-coronavirus-pandemic


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## macca (28 February 2020)

Food for thought..................

*<<50 TONS OF VITAMIN C TO WUHAN
China Using Vitamin C Against COVID*
*by Andrew W. Saul, Editor-in-Chief
Orthomolecular Medicine News Service*
(OMNS February 23, 2020) We can all agree that 50 tons of vitamin C pretty much qualifies as a megadose. We can also likely agree that trucking 50 tons of vitamin C, straight into Wuhan, full in the face of the COVID-19 epidemic, qualifies as news.

The news media are not reporting this, or any other, significantly positive megavitamin news.>>

DSM is a major manufacturer or bulk vitamins based in China, they shipped 50 tons of Vit C to Wuhan

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v16n13.shtml

meanwhile in the USA

<<Indeed, the World Health Organization (WHO) has, literally, met with Google and Facebook and other media giants to stop the spread of what they declare to be wrong information. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/02/14/facebook-google-amazon-met-with-who-to-talk-coronavirus-misinformation.html?__twitter_impression=true>>

but in China

Ironically, Facebook, blocking any significant users' sharing of the news of approved vitamin therapy research, is itself blocked in China by the Chinese government. As for the internet, yes, China has it. And yes, it is censored. But, significantly, the Chinese government has not blocked this real news on how intravenous vitamin C will save lives in the COVID-19 epidemic. Here is the protocol as published in Chinese: http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v16n11-chi.shtml

Now, where is that big pharma thread..............

we do not have a vaccine and cannot have a vaccine for many months if ever, in China they are testing mega doses of Vit C to ease the symptoms while people recover.

As Vit C is a known to be safe to use by most people, surely it is worth a try. Why is the news of China's current use of it labelled as fake news in USA by the WHO

Does make me wonder..........


----------



## bellenuit (28 February 2020)

basilio said:


> So the Government announces a planned response to the threat of a Covid-19 epidemic in Oz.
> How well equipped is our current system to implement such a response ?
> Well worth checking out what we would probably know instinctively. And don't imagine the private health system offers any substantial resources.
> 
> ...




Hospitals always are working to full capacity. By declaring the pandemic, I believe it gives the government certain powers that will be needed in case of a surge in infections. Initially it will allow them to requisition supplies that may be needed and they can identify resources that may need to be dedicated to containing the spread, such as declaring certain floors in hospitals for COVID-19 patients only.

I don't thinks any health system in the world would have the spare capacity sitting around to cater for a widespread pandemic such as what this may turn out to be.


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## SirRumpole (28 February 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Hospitals always are working to full capacity. By declaring the pandemic, I believe it gives the government certain powers that will be needed in case of a surge in infections. Initially it will allow them to requisition supplies that may be needed and they can identify resources that may need to be dedicated to containing the spread, such as declaring certain floors in hospitals for COVID-19 patients only.
> 
> I don't thinks any health system in the world would have the spare capacity sitting around to cater for a widespread pandemic such as what this may turn out to be.




I wonder if those powers include taking over private hospitals, cancelling non urgent surgeries there and moving COVID  patients in.


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## fergee (28 February 2020)

macca said:


> Food for thought..................
> 
> *<<50 TONS OF VITAMIN C TO WUHAN*
> *China Using Vitamin C Against COVID*
> ...




How much longer will the WHO be around for after the corna-virus blows over? 

May be a case of WHO?


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## sptrawler (28 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder if those powers include taking over private hospitals, cancelling non urgent surgeries there and moving COVID  patients in.



With something like this, I would say, that is a certainty.


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## Smurf1976 (28 February 2020)

Updating this post from early Tuesday morning, so a bit under 4 days ago, with the latest figures (in brackets)

China = 77,150 (83,704)
*South Korea = 833 (2,337)
Italy = 230 (655)*
Japan = 154 (226)
Singapore = 89 (93)
Hong Kong = 79 (94)
*Iran = 61 (270)*
Thailand = 35 (41)
USA = 35 (60)
Taiwan = 30 (34)
Australia = 22 (23)
Malaysia = 22 (23)
*Germany = 16 (48)*
United Arab Emirates = 16 (19)
UK = 13 (? figures seem to have gone missing)
*France = 12 (38)*
Macau = 10 (10)
Canada = 9 (14)
Philippines = 3 (3)
India = 3 (3)
Russia = 2 (2)
*Spain = 2 (25)*
Lebanon = 1 (2)
Nepal = 1 (1)
Cambodia = 1 (1)
Israel = 1 (3)
Belgium = 1 (1)
Finland = 1 (2)
Sweden = 1 (7)
Egypt = 1 (1)
Sri Lanka = 1 (1)

I've highlighted those which have seen more than a 100% increase to a total which exceeds 10 cases.

South Korea, Italy and Iran have received some attention in the media but there's a very rapid increase underway in France and Germany too, both having tripled in the period of less than 4 days. With caution I'll mention Spain there too although that was starting from a very low base.

There's also plenty more countries which now have at least one case, and many which I haven't highlighted but which have nonetheless seen an increase. Of particular note among those with no reported cases 4 days ago are:

Kuwait (43)
Bahrain (33)
Vietnam (16)
Switzerland (8)
Iraq (7)
Oman (4)

They've all gone from nothing to several cases quite quickly and there seems to be a cluster of cases emerging in the Middle East quite broadly with multiple countries reporting significant numbers and a rapid increase. 

Something I'm not aware of but others may know - do people living in the Middle East commonly travel to neighbouring countries? I've only been there as a tourist so don't know but if so then it would explain why it seems to be breaking out in multiple countries there. 

I'm no doctor but at this point I think it's far too widespread to contain by means of restricting movement unless we do something truly drastic and by that I mean basically a curfew on the entire population in force 24/7. Other than something like that, it's hard to see how it can be stopped now given that most people live somewhere reasonably close to a location where there's at least one reported case.


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## Smurf1976 (29 February 2020)

Thinking about this some more, I think those who are prepping (as they call it) might actually be the smart ones.

I'll pose a question: Who here expects to get some sort of cold, flu etc over the course of 2020?

Probably most people would think they've got at least a reasonable chance of that under normal circumstances.

Now I'll pose another question: Supposing that you have a cold, ordinary common flu or whatever, would you right at this moment feel comfortable walking into any shop? Or would you feel that there's substantial social pressure to self-isolate? Even if it's just a common cold, others seeing that you're ill don't know that and will have "corona virus" running through their mind as they avoid you.

The idea that the majority of the population are going to spend a week or two isolated at some point, with effectively zero notice, doesn't seem too far fetched. Even if it's just a cold, you're not really going to be at all comfortable going anywhere in public right now indeed it's entirely foreseeable that entering a public place whilst showing symptoms of illness is deemed illegal here in Australia.

Having a fortnight's worth of food and other essentials in the house would seem a wise precaution.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Updating this post from early Tuesday morning, so a bit under 4 days ago, with the latest figures (in brackets)
> 
> *Iran = 61 (270)*




A few hours later and the Iran figure is now officially 388.

To the extent the virus is rapidly increasing, that's where it seems to be happening at present.


----------



## bluekelah (29 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I was wondering if methanol was the right alcool used in these.good tip, it makes sense, did not want to waste even cheap vodka



yes denatured alcohol is listed as an ingredient in hand sanitiser from coles/woolies. Denatured alcohol and methylated spirits are the same thing as ethanol. 

U can also use isopropyl (rubbing alcohol)  which is used in more expensive hand sanitizers but its much pricier


----------



## bluekelah (29 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> A few hours later and the Iran figure is now officially 388.
> 
> To the extent the virus is rapidly increasing, that's where it seems to be happening at present.



28 deaths and their Vice president and 4 MPs plus health minister has COVID19 now. and 8 deaths in just one hospital night shift in Kamkar Hospital in Tehran.


----------



## DB008 (29 February 2020)

*Vaccine against coronavirus: Israeli research lab claims breakthrough*​
As research labs across the world rush to develop vaccine against coronavirus, that the World Health Organization has “pandemic potential” and Israel research institute has claimed a breakthrough, according to the Israeli website Grapevine, which focuses on innovation in Israel.

Grapevine reported that the Migal Research Institute, based in northern Israel, held a press conference on Thursday to reveal that they have developed a coronavirus vaccine.

The findings are a culmination of four years multi-disciplinary research funded by Israel’s Ministry of Science and Technology in cooperation with Israel’s Ministry of Agriculture.

MIGAL has achieved the scientific breakthrough that will lead to the rapid creation of a vaccine against coronavirus, it claimed.
This possibility was identified as a by-product of MIGAL’s development of a vaccine against IBV (Infectious Bronchitis Virus), a disease affecting poultry, whose effectiveness has been proven in pre-clinical trials carried out at the Veterinary Institute.

MIGAL has now made required genetic adjustments to adapt the vaccine to COVID-19, the human strain of coronavirus, and is working to achieve the safety approvals that will enable in-vivo testing, enable the initiation of production of a vaccine to counter the coronavirus epidemic currently spreading throughout the world, which so far has claimed 2,666 lives.​

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/lif...Israeli-research-lab-claims-breakthrough.html​


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## DB008 (29 February 2020)

Saturday 29th Feb AM update​
https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6​
Total Confirmed - 83,867
Total Deaths - 2,867
Total Recovered - 36,686

Iran and Italy have certainly become hot spots.

Total Confirmed
Italy - 655
Iran - 388


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## qldfrog (29 February 2020)

Homeland France is seing more and more cases and just start taking this seriously


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## Knobby22 (29 February 2020)

Yes, I am very happy with our Prime Minister who has been proactive on this issue.
He has learnt from the bushfires.

Also I have a friend in Japan who is a schoolteacher. Married a local girl. He said that all the schools are now being shut down for two weeks.


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## moXJO (29 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, I am very happy with our Prime Minister who has been proactive on this issue.
> He has learnt from the bushfires.



Personally I hope the libs catch COVID with a side order of diarrhea.


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## fergee (29 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, I am very happy with our Prime Minister who has been proactive on this issue.
> He has learnt from the bushfires.
> 
> Also I have a friend in Japan who is a schoolteacher. Married a local girl. He said that all the schools are now being shut down for two weeks.



YEP I can confirm this. But kindygartens still open and all teachers still need to turn up to school regardless if pupils are there.

Just got back from the super market here ( Marunaka ) no toilet paper, no basic head ache and cold medicine, no hand sanitzer, no masks....good thing they had beer and sausages though!


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## sptrawler (29 February 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, I am very happy with our Prime Minister who has been proactive on this issue.
> .



I'm just glad he ignored the media, screaming at him to throw stimulus money, for the last two years.
It would be a real mess now, if we were already committed to a half ar$ed stimulus package, when we will probably need heaps of stimulus soon.
IMO we are very lucky the media don't run the country, despite their efforts.


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## basilio (29 February 2020)

Very interesting story of Corona Virus infection and recovery from a person in Wuhan.
Check out the sophisticated medical interventions the guy received. I wonder how well other countries will replicate this level of medical attention ?

*To hell and back’: my three weeks suffering from coronavirus *
Tiger Ye, 21, lives in Wuhan and started showing symptoms in mid-January. Here he tells the story of his illness and recovery
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ack-my-three-weeks-suffering-from-coronavirus


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## basilio (29 February 2020)

Iran death toll allegedly much higher.

*Coronavirus: Iran's deaths at least 210, hospital sources say*


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## Dona Ferentes (29 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Personally I hope the libs catch COVID with a side order of diarrhea.



And I've found a foolproof way of getting rich. ... _Buy you for what you're worth and sell you for what you think you're worth._


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## frugal.rock (29 February 2020)

fergee said:


> Just got back from the super market here ( Marunaka ) no toilet paper, no basic head ache and cold medicine, no hand sanitzer, no masks....good thing they had beer and sausages though!



Bangers and beer, the virus should leave you alone! Oi,oi,oi.
No Date Roll eh, hahaha.
The necessities of modern life amuse me. 

F.Rock


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## bellenuit (29 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> when we will probably need heaps of stimulus soon.




This will be a difficult one. Unlike the GFC, you can't simply throw money at the economy. If businesses are not working at full capacity because their supply sources in China are not producing the requisite parts, then stimulating the economy with lower interest rates or handouts to individuals is not going to do anything for these businesses. It is a supply side issue outside our control. Equally our export industries may have reduced demand because their customer base is in lockdown in China or Korea. Again, the issue is probably not solvable here.

Whatever stimulus is offered will have to be well thought through and precisely targeted.

Kevin Rudd's call for a broad stimulus package shows a lack of appreciation for the differences between now and when he was leader.


----------



## noirua (29 February 2020)

On the coronavirus. If it hits anywhere else, except China, there is no chance of doing as well as they have. Imagine setting up a two thousand bed hospital in two weeks. Being dragged in off the streets when your temperature is high and hooked round the neck and set upon. Or locking down Brisbane or Melbourne and not letting anyone out.

The virus will mutate at some stage and it's known a high dose of the virus will kill otherwise young and fit persons. Having it once does not mean a person can not be infected again. Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus

Coronaviruses are a group of viruses that cause diseases in mammals and birds. In humans, coronaviruses cause respiratory tract infections that are typically mild, such as the common cold, though rarer forms such as SARS, MERS and COVID-19 can be lethal. Symptoms vary in other species: in chickens, they cause an upper respiratory tract disease, while in cows and pigs they cause diarrhea. There are yet to be vaccines or antiviral drugs to prevent or treat human coronavirus infections.

The major reason that viruses evolve faster than say, mosquitoes or snakes or bed bugs, is because they multiply faster than other organisms. And that means every new individual is an opportunity for new mutations as they make a copy of their genetic material.

Other fast mutators include coronaviruses like MERS, Covid-19 and SARS. Influenza viruses are fairly fast mutators, although that varies from strain to strain. That's one reason why flu vaccines are often only effective for a short while.

A vaccine for the coronavirus Covid-19 will not be available until early 2021.


----------



## moXJO (29 February 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> And I've found a foolproof way of getting rich. ... _Buy you for what you're worth and sell you for what you think you're worth._



Pfft should have just priced my ego. More $ by the #.


----------



## sptrawler (29 February 2020)

noirua said:


> On the coronavirus. If it hits anywhere else, except China, there is no chance of doing as well as they have. Imagine setting up a two thousand bed hospital in two weeks. Being dragged in off the streets when your temperature is high and hooked round the neck and set upon. Or locking down Brisbane or Melbourne and not letting anyone out.
> 
> The virus will mutate at some stage and it's known a high dose of the virus will kill otherwise young and fit persons. Having it once does not mean a person can not be infected again. Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus
> 
> ...



Wait untill it comes out of Africa.


----------



## qldfrog (1 March 2020)

First death in the USA.i would not be surprised if, as Italy, it is already spreading there in hiding


----------



## Knobby22 (1 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> First death in the USA.i would not be surprised if, as Italy, it is already spreading there in hiding



The USA has been unprepared due to cutbacks and is therefore likely to have the virus loose in the population undetected. South Korea had massive testing which is why they are more in control.

 I saw that USA independent labs are now encouraged to develop test kits as the government is caught short.

Also Fox News (the gov propaganda unit) is now saying in headlines that the disease isn't that scary which is sign that they think the fight may be lost.


----------



## bluekelah (1 March 2020)

fergee said:


> YEP I can confirm this. But kindygartens still open and all teachers still need to turn up to school regardless if pupils are there.
> 
> Just got back from the super market here ( Marunaka ) no toilet paper, no basic head ache and cold medicine, no hand sanitzer, no masks....good thing they had beer and sausages though!




thanks for your feedback on the ground. If you need masks you can still get some good ones(3M P2/N95 with valves) for double price on Ebay AU delivered. I suspect those will be gone and prices up once coronavirus hits it big time here.


----------



## qldfrog (1 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> thanks for your feedback on the ground. If you need masks you can still get some good ones(3M P2/N95 with valves) for double price on Ebay AU delivered. I suspect those will be gone and prices up once coronavirus hits it big time here.



I ordered 2 sets from ebay 1rs5 surgical set at pre crisis price delivered within week all good
2nd set  n95 plus cartridges ordered had tracking allocated and did not arrive.got money back.i suspect seller took it back and resell higher price.
This was more than a month ago
You can still order but i doubt you will receive anything..maybe after the crisis is over


----------



## bluekelah (1 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> First death in the USA.i would not be surprised if, as Italy, it is already spreading there in hiding




For sure its gone community wide now, That first death was unknown origin in a care facility with other residents and staff sick with no way of testing them immediately yet. CDC there is already sending out test kits countrywide now but i doubt they can catch it in time.


----------



## basilio (2 March 2020)

Update on ABC news about coroina virus.

Looks like China might be controlling the spread. South Korea through the roof. Iran going off. Many other countries with  reported  infections.

Nothing in Indonesia yet ??

*Coronavirus update: Three more cases diagnosed in Australia as Iran's death toll rises and the Louvre is closed*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-02/coronavirus-updates-live/12015240


----------



## wayneL (2 March 2020)

My client this morning has a sister in epidemiology. Her and her colleagues think it will probably end up a pandemic similar to Spanish Flu. FWIW


----------



## Logique (2 March 2020)

A sense of perspective as Mr Tagliaferro says - there are up to 650,000 annual deaths from the flu.  This isn't the Black Plague or Smallpox, nor anything like it. Soon enough there will be a vaccine.

Source:
https://www.morningstar.com.au/
Anton Tagliaferro, investment director at Investors Mutual Limited, on Friday detailed how the correction _is affecting IML's portfolios.
...In times like these, Tagliaferro says there are a few things to bear in mind:
The correction is happening at a time when many *sharemarkets around the world had reached record highs* on investor optimism of continued world growth, with many stocks arguably in over-valued territory.

While the coronavirus is being taken very seriously by government authorities, so far the virus has led to around 3,000 deaths. To keep this in perspective, it is worth noting a 2017 World Health Organisation study attributed between *300,000 *and *650,000 deaths* per annum from the *annual influenza *virus..._


----------



## qldfrog (2 March 2020)

So an extra 600,000 deaths per year after vaccine in 1 year or 2, how many before in your optimistic view?
Just very basic assumptions, no rocket sciences then how old and fit are you?your loved ones
Make your own opinion after


----------



## moXJO (2 March 2020)

Logique said:


> A sense of perspective as Mr Tagliaferro says - there are up to 650,000 annual deaths from the flu.  This isn't the Black Plague or Smallpox, nor anything like it. Soon enough there will be a vaccine.
> 
> Source:
> https://www.morningstar.com.au/
> ...



If it's contained in time, it will fizzle and everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about. Authorities here seem a bit complacent. A few cases here where they didn't quarantine anyone and let them keep working after being exposed. 

I'm still undecided on the public health overall.
Initially I thought it was low risk. Now it's watch and adjust.

Economy on the other hand will take a beating either way.


----------



## wayneL (2 March 2020)

Logique said:


> A sense of perspective as Mr Tagliaferro says - there are up to 650,000 annual deaths from the flu.  This isn't the Black Plague or Smallpox, nor anything like it. Soon enough there will be a vaccine.
> 
> Source:
> https://www.morningstar.com.au/
> ...



The thing is influenza is basically endemic and has a kill rate of about 0.1%, COVID19 is only at the beginning and had a kill rate of 2-3%.

If it can be contained we're all good, that remains to be seen.

Personally I am less concerned than most, but watching closely, like all of us.


----------



## moXJO (2 March 2020)

I'm still of the opinion of get fit and get finances  in order....


----------



## wayneL (2 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> I'm still of the opinion of get fit and get finances  in order....



And a couple of pallets of beans?


----------



## basilio (2 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> The thing is influenza is basically endemic and has a kill rate of about 0.1%, COVID19 is only at the beginning and had a kill rate of 2-3%




That is the criticial point isn't it  ? A new disease with no immunity or vaccine that could spread as far as flu but kills 20 to 30 times as many people and to date  causes serious  hospitalising illness to around 20% of those who  catch it. 

We have seen what has happened to China and they have thrown absolutely everything they have to control its spread and  treat the sufferers. This is not a hypothetical situation.


----------



## satanoperca (2 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> The thing is influenza is basically endemic and has a kill rate of about 0.1%




This is an accurate figure determine after a long time duration.



wayneL said:


> COVID19 is only at the beginning and had a kill rate of 2-3%.



This is an immature figure and could be highly inaccurate, with only 2 months of data.
My personal take is this :
The death rate in China is significantly higher than what has been reported say by a factor of x5.
However, I think the infection rate is significantly higher in China by a factor of at least x10.

So until we have more time and more accurate data, know one, know the real figures, I am guessing sub <2%. With the vast majority of deaths coming from people >70 years old.


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> And a couple of pallets of beans?



The face mask will be usefull, with that many beans.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (2 March 2020)

Logique said:


> A sense of perspective as Mr Tagliaferro says - there are up to 650,000 annual deaths from the flu.  This isn't the Black Plague or Smallpox, nor anything like it. Soon enough there will be a vaccine.
> 
> Source:
> https://www.morningstar.com.au/
> ...



Fund managers have to say that. Douglass at Magellan, and many others are coming out with risk unaware crap. If they sell, then buying back is a nightmare, because they have to Time The Market twice. And they can't do it even once. Different story dropping a few thousand and offloading multiple millions.

If the virus gets hold, 2% death rate is *half a million* in this country. With only 4000 ICU beds in the country, a lot of people are going to be without grandparents.


----------



## wayneL (2 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> This is an accurate figure determine after a long time duration.
> 
> 
> This is an immature figure and could be highly inaccurate, with only 2 months of data.
> ...



That's a good point and will need some time to tease that out.


----------



## basilio (2 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> That's a good point and will need some time to tease that out.




Maybe... Maybe not.  Perhaps 80,000 infections and treatments is a reasonable indicator until we reach a few million.  In the circumstances I would take current information as the guidelines until proven way wrong.

Of more concern is the fact that the treatment to date seems to have been as good if not better than most countries in the world and certainly better than most third world countries and what is available to most US citizens with little insurance.


----------



## wayneL (2 March 2020)

basilio said:


> Maybe... Maybe not.  Perhaps 80,000 infections and treatments is a reasonable indicator until we reach a few million.  In the circumstances I would take current information as the guidelines until proven way wrong.
> 
> Of more concern is the fact that the treatment to date seems to have been as good if not better than most countries in the world and certainly better than most third world countries and what is available to most US citizens with little insurance.



It's early days and we are in the realm of chaos theory, as far as where this develops. 80000 may be the tip of the iceberg at the moment, and there are jurisdictions which are not as thorough as our own.

The humanitarian aspect aside, as investors all we can really do is keep monitoring the information as it comes to light. 

I have certain expectations where this may go but they could be absolutely wrong, so keeping an ear to the ground and hope everyone here does not succumb


----------



## moXJO (2 March 2020)

Crazy stuff...

https://www.news.com.au/travel/trav...d/news-story/bea212b73787a3691f3ed59f789134cc


----------



## qldfrog (2 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> I'm still of the opinion of get fit and get finances  in order....



Words of wisdom


----------



## Logique (2 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> This is an accurate figure determine after a long time duration.
> This is an immature figure and could be highly inaccurate, with only 2 months of data.
> My personal take is this :
> The death rate in China is significantly higher than what has been reported say by a factor of x5.
> ...



Indeed Satanoperca, I think that's a fair guesstimate.  As you imply, the mortality rate in the First World has been much less than in the Third World, i.e. comparison of China & Iran Vs Australia & US/UK.  

Influenza can carry away 78 year olds too - with great respect to that Aussie gent and his family this month.


----------



## Logique (2 March 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Fund managers have to say that. Douglass at Magellan, and many others are coming out with risk unaware crap. If they sell, then buying back is a nightmare, because they have to Time The Market twice. And they can't do it even once. Different story dropping a few thousand and offloading multiple millions.
> If the virus gets hold, 2% death rate is *half a million* in this country. With only 4000 ICU beds in the country, a lot of people are going to be without grandparents.



Cheers Dona. I hope desperately for sub 2% mortality in Aus, and I believe our hospitals and health workers are well up to it. But if along the way, it makes a few fund managers squirm, that's alright by me.

Anyway a chance the market goes up tomorrow Tues. An AUD  rate cut would help, and it's possible


----------



## qldfrog (2 March 2020)

Logique said:


> Indeed Satanoperca, I think that's a fair guesstimate.  As you imply, the mortality rate in the First World has been much less than in the Third World, i.e. comparison of China & Iran Vs Australia & US/UK.
> 
> Influenza can carry away 78 year olds too - with great respect to that Aussie gent and his family this month.



China third world? Just hope you will have as efficient a system as China with what? 400 icu beds per capital city in Australia and quite a few seniors?
Do not be number 401 :-(


----------



## Logique (2 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> China third world? Just hope you will have as efficient a system as China with what? 400 icu beds per capital city in Australia and quite a few seniors?
> Do not be number 401 :-(



Fair point on the national economy Qldrog - but their mass health system and open reporting, not so sure


----------



## qldfrog (2 March 2020)

Logique said:


> mass health system



 not bad at all and not that inefficient..rough but dual medecine in place plus a lot of mass health systems.readu for number more than us, no top room tv privacy etc but i would not compare them and us as low and high standard
Agree about transparency: 0


----------



## satanoperca (3 March 2020)

Some perspective.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/life-expectancy-death/deaths-in-australia/contents/age-at-death
In 2017, there were 160,909 deaths registered in Australia. The majority of deaths in Australia, like other developed countries, occur among older people. Sixty-six per cent of deaths registered in Australia in 2017 were among people aged 75 or over (60% for males and 73% for females).

So doing some quick maths (160k*0.66)/365= 289 Australians age 75 > die each day in Australia.

Seems like the virus has some catching up to do against other causes of death for the elderly.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2020)

An article explaining projected peak period for infection in W.A.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ak-set-to-peak-in-august-doctors-say/12018720

_The latest Health Department modelling indicated there would be a higher risk of coronavirus spreading through WA by late April or mid-May, while August was forecast to be the most dangerous period_.

The anticipation is kicking in.


----------



## qldfrog (3 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Some perspective.
> https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/life-expectancy-death/deaths-in-australia/contents/age-at-death
> In 2017, there were 160,909 deaths registered in Australia. The majority of deaths in Australia, like other developed countries, occur among older people. Sixty-six per cent of deaths registered in Australia in 2017 were among people aged 75 or over (60% for males and 73% for females).
> 
> ...



do not worry it is coming probably not for you as you have a pretty good opinion on what needs to happen to females over 75...men are often already dead by then


----------



## bellenuit (3 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Some perspective.
> https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/life-expectancy-death/deaths-in-australia/contents/age-at-death
> In 2017, there were 160,909 deaths registered in Australia. The majority of deaths in Australia, like other developed countries, occur among older people. Sixty-six per cent of deaths registered in Australia in 2017 were among people aged 75 or over (60% for males and 73% for females).
> 
> ...




I am sure that if one had the statistics on the Spanish Flu from just a few months after it originated, we would see comparatively low figures too. I don't think you can compare a virus that is in the initial phases of spreading with rates from other established causes. 

I heard on some news channel yesterday day that COVID-19 infections are increasing by 20% per day outside China. That means the rate of infections are almost doubling every 3 days and if continued unabated, they would increase by one thousandfold per month. Further extrapolating, that is a millionfold increase in under a year.

I am not saying that COVID-19 will continue at that rate. But certainly there is no room for complacency by just looking at current mortality rates.


----------



## satanoperca (3 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I am sure that if one had the statistics on the Spanish Flu from just a few months after it originated, we would see comparatively low figures too. I don't think you can compare a virus that is in the initial phases of spreading with rates from other established causes.
> 
> I heard on some news channel yesterday day that COVID-19 infections are increasing by 20% per day outside China. That means the rate of infections are almost doubling every 3 days and if continued unabated, they would increase by one thousandfold per month. Further extrapolating, that is a millionfold increase in under a year.
> 
> I am not saying that COVID-19 will continue at that rate. But certainly there is no room for complacency by just looking at current mortality rates.




Yes you can, if total deaths per day in Australia are 440 approx, then until we see at least 20 deaths a day from this virus alone, there is nothing to be concerned about = 7300 pa from COVID-19, or a 5% increase in the current natural mortality rate.

I will say, this is being totally overblown, if the scientist came out and said this virus was engineered, then I would start to get concerned.


----------



## qldfrog (3 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Yes you can, if total deaths per day in Australia are 440 approx, then until we see at least 20 deaths a day from this virus alone, there is nothing to be concerned about = 7300 pa from COVID-19, or a 5% increase in the current natural mortality rate.
> 
> I will say, this is being totally overblown, if the scientist came out and said this virus was engineered, then I would start to get concerned.



Last point just inform yourself about wuhan and its level 4 lab, then look at the sars plus hiv sequences present in the new virus.
Or the fact you can get reinfected...
And the consequences of that last point.but true if you are 20 or 30 and hate your family, no need to worry


----------



## bellenuit (3 March 2020)




----------



## qldfrog (3 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


>




I am not an anti Trump for everything but this is completely nuts, a bit like the indonesian government saying it was protected by God....
Actually if the virus is really sensitive to heat, Indonesia warm and not AC environment could be saved......
then you remember Singapore figures...not exactly Greenland climate ;-)


----------



## basilio (3 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Yes you can, if total deaths per day in Australia are 440 approx, then until we see at least 20 deaths a day from this virus alone, there is nothing to be concerned about = 7300 pa from COVID-19, or a 5% increase in the current natural mortality rate.
> 
> I will say, this is being totally overblown, if the scientist came out and said this virus was engineered, then I would start to get concerned.




Since mid Jan, only 7 weeks ago, the virus has  paralyzed the most populous country on earth and essentially undermined the worlds industrial powerhouse.

Sth. Korea and Japan are now about 4 weeks behind China. God knows what is happening in Iran, Italy and now US.  On the evidence I don't think the concern about this virus is overblown.  I suspect the final problem will be more economic than death related.
___________________
The picture of  Pence and co praying their way out of this situation ? I fear that really is all they can do.  The Trump administration has gutted the capacity of the CDC to effectively respond and they have appointed a person with almost no capacity to use the resources left effectively or show the leadership that will be required.

And the situation is  deteriorating  exponentially


----------



## moXJO (3 March 2020)

Panic has hit the US.
https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=#costco&src=typed_query&fbclid=IwAR0AapQXj2HVge5DxIixON7JVu1QXKmDqo2El9iDXkv5GpKsITfKmOnlmE8





Now I understand the toilet paper shortage.


----------



## UMike (3 March 2020)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...on-boosted-amid-coronavirus-concerns/12020230

I don't get this one???

I own a business so we have stoked up on Chinese imported dry goods but?????


----------



## moXJO (3 March 2020)

UMike said:


> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...on-boosted-amid-coronavirus-concerns/12020230
> 
> I don't get this one???
> 
> I own a business so we have stoked up on Chinese imported dry goods but?????



Can you imagine the conversations in the toilet paper factory. They must have got blindsided.

The way it's going I won't be wiping my arse for weeks.

Did you have a run on any items?


----------



## grah33 (3 March 2020)

Things aren't looking too good.  Some fear in people I've met already.

History is full of plaque killers, unfortunately,  e.g. Spanish Flu 1918, 50 - 100 million people .  Initially it too had a low mortality rate.


----------



## noirua (3 March 2020)

Professor William Keevil, professor of environmental healthcare at the University of Southampton, said: "Our published human coronavirus work showed these viruses can survive three to four days on common touch surfaces such as plastics, ceramics, glass and stainless steel."

[Some say it survives two hours. Why then spray the streets?]

The Virus That Learns
Https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2013/02/27/the-virus-that-learns/

27 Feb 2013 - When a virus invades these bacteria, they capture fragments of its DNA and insert them into their CRISPR genes. ... In order to turn a virus's genes into new virus proteins, a microbe must first make a copy of the gene in a molecule called RNA. CRISPR genes can produce RNA molecules with a matching sequence.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2020)

noirua said:


> Professor William Keevil, professor of environmental healthcare at the University of Southampton, said: "Our published human coronavirus work showed these viruses can survive three to four days on common touch surfaces such as plastics, ceramics, glass and stainless steel."
> 
> [Some say it survives two hours. Why then spray the streets?]
> 
> ...



The big problem could be, if it mutates with something horrible, in Africa IMO.


----------



## bellenuit (3 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Panic has hit the US.
> https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=#costco&src=typed_query&fbclid=IwAR0AapQXj2HVge5DxIixON7JVu1QXKmDqo2El9iDXkv5GpKsITfKmOnlmE8
> 
> 
> ...





Maybe Newspapers should be published on soft paper until things are back to normal. As kids newspapers were often used as toilet paper.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2020)

This can't be repeated enough, but it is the most important thing.

*“It’s also important to keep your hands away from your face,”* said Dr. Vaishampayan. *“Respiratory viruses don’t infect through your skin, they infect through your mucous membranes: the eyes, nose and mouth.*


----------



## Dona Ferentes (4 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> ...Now I understand the toilet paper shortage.



so worried about the virus, he's gonna get sh1tfaced?


----------



## wayneL (4 March 2020)

Thread: There could amount to a massive underreporting, in the US as least.


----------



## moXJO (4 March 2020)

It's hit NSW. Authorities are scrambling to catch up but too late already. Those that had it have been in the community for too long.
I thought it would take a few more weeks to get to this moment. But well done authorities, surprised me again with incompetence.


----------



## IFocus (4 March 2020)

Caught up with an old friend yesterday after shaking hands he told me he had just come back from Thailand through Singapore 4 days ago............thanks mate


----------



## chiff (4 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> Thread: There could amount to a massive underreporting, in the US as least.




Without health cover people may be reluctant to report their symptoms?


----------



## basilio (4 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> Thread: There could amount to a massive underreporting, in the US as least.





Check out that tweet.  Unfortunately says it all in terms of a woeful  medical response.  
They are under prepared and the CDC preparations  were rolled back by the current administration .


----------



## Knobby22 (4 March 2020)

I am also sure all the dead aren't being counted. Damn 3rd world nation.


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2020)

At last an interesting informative article on the virus.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/why...ng-sick-from-coronavirus-20200302-p545x8.html


----------



## basilio (4 March 2020)

_"Your health is as safe as that of the worst-insured, worst-cared-for person in your society."

It's a sobering thought but, as the number of countries affected by coronavirus grows, and mounting anxieties over a prospective pandemic spill over, the role of a social safety net — or lack thereof — has become increasingly pronounced.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...are-system-australia-vulnerabilities/12016140_


----------



## grah33 (4 March 2020)

With the Spanish Flue there was an unusual spike in infections in the preceding summer.  Interestingly enough the same thing happened here this summer.  I noticed many people ill at Coles, which seemed strange to me.  And the media reported an unexpected spike in infections this summer.  I wonder if it's correlated in some way.


----------



## moXJO (4 March 2020)

Australia can't handle  Saturday night in the emergency department. Our hospitals won't cope.


----------



## grah33 (4 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> It's hit NSW. Authorities are scrambling to catch up but too late already. Those that had it have been in the community for too long.
> I thought it would take a few more weeks to get to this moment. But well done authorities, surprised me again with incompetence.



argh, that's too bad


----------



## moXJO (4 March 2020)

Putting it on wash hands before.

Taking it off: wash hands, then wash hands after you have taken it off. The front of the mask is basically a virus pit.

If they get wet they are no good either(some are rated).


----------



## moXJO (4 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> argh, that's too bad



Already in the local uni. One of the students was just rushed off. Officials need to keep up or it will run out of control. I have  zero faith in Aussies ability to give a sht though


----------



## moXJO (4 March 2020)

A coronavirus-infected man in Tasmania was told to self-isolate at home when he became ill, but instead he went shopping in Woolies without a mask.


----------



## grah33 (4 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> A coronavirus-infected man in Tasmania was told to self-isolate at home when he became ill, but instead he went shopping in Woolies without a mask.



yep, I thought this kind of thing would happen.


----------



## grah33 (4 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Putting it on wash hands before.
> 
> Taking it off: wash hands, then wash hands after you have taken it off. The front of the mask is basically a virus pit.
> 
> If they get wet they are no good either(some are rated).




are there different types of masks?  which one should we get?


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> A coronavirus-infected man in Tasmania was told to self-isolate at home when he became ill, but instead he went shopping in Woolies without a mask.




Not wanting to be paranoid but I think it's reasonable to say that we're already at the point where if your health is compromised by existing conditions then you'd be wise to self-isolate in order to minimise your chances of catching this virus.

If you go into any crowded place then it's already at the point where you can't sensibly be confident you're not going to be infected. As the days go by, that chance of infection is rapidly escalating.


----------



## basilio (4 March 2020)

This story illustrates how dangerously misinformed and unprepared the US health system is.
Terrifying actually.
The same country that the lying buffoon of a crooked president boasted a few days ago was the most prepared country in the world.

* Washington state residents frustrated over obstacles to get coronavirus tests *
Residents report misinformation and difficulties getting tested as state faces evolving outbreak
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/03/coronavirus-washington-state-deaths-testing


----------



## moXJO (4 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> are there different types of masks?  which one should we get?



Over here it's p2 masks or higher. 
If you don't know how to use the mask or it has air leaks it's pretty pointless. 
You should also know how to wash your hands properly.

*Which 4 Hand Sanitizers Were Tested and were able to Kill SARS Viral Particles?
*

*Sterillium Rub 80% Ethanol*
*Sterillium Gel 85% Ethanol*
*Sterillium Virugard 95% Ethanol*
*Sterillium based on 45% Isopropanol, 30%n-propanol and 0.2% mecetronium etilsulphate. – no longer made.*
*Study 2

In 2006, there was yet another study (link) which tested 70% Ethanol…and that study concluded that 70% Ethanol did kill and render SARS Coronavirus particles below detectable levels.*

70% or above. Make sure you check.

Most people will more then likely get the virus. We just all don't want it at the same time.


----------



## moXJO (4 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> are there different types of masks?  which one should we get?



They are also all sold out


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> 70% or above. Make sure you check.



For those not aware, simple methylated spirits is 95% ethanol and kills viruses.

Every hardware store and most supermarkets sell it. Brand is irrelevant - it's just a simple chemical so they'll all be the same.

In case anyone's wondering what the other 5% is - ethanol naturally absorbs a fixed amount of water from the air and that's most of it plus a tiny amount of Bitrex to discourage anyone from drinking the stuff. 100% ethanol is difficult for that reason - it can be made but have to keep air away from it otherwise it ends up at 95% but thankfully that's more than good enough for the purpose so not a problem as such.


----------



## basilio (4 March 2020)

Bit of fun,  good info .. with a bite..


----------



## macca (4 March 2020)

macca said:


> Food for thought..................
> 
> *<<50 TONS OF VITAMIN C TO WUHAN*
> *China Using Vitamin C Against COVID*
> ...




Following on from this post more details from China and treatments tried over there

An official statement from Xi'an Jiaotong University Second Hospital (2) reads:

_"On the afternoon of February 20, 2020, another 4 patients with severe new coronaviral pneumonia recovered from the C10 West Ward of Tongji Hospital. In the past 8 patients have been discharged from hospital. . . [H]igh-dose vitamin C achieved good results in clinical applications. We believe that for patients with severe neonatal pneumonia and critically ill patients, vitamin C treatment should be initiated as soon as possible after admission. . .[E]arly application of large doses of vitamin C can have a strong antioxidant effect, reduce inflammatory responses, and improve endothelial function. . . Numerous studies have shown that the dose of vitamin C has a lot to do with the effect of treatment. . . [H]gh-dose vitamin C can not only improve antiviral levels, but more importantly, can prevent and treat acute lung injury (ALI) and acute respiratory distress (ARDS)."_

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v16n16.shtml

Interesting to see if China will make an official statement on this, obviously it is a state run hospital and they took a very dim view of another doctor who spoke out of turn somewhere else.

These people are still researching and releasing results, I suppose the big difference is their news is positive and the other one was negative.

Unfortunately the other chap died.


----------



## qldfrog (4 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This can't be repeated enough, but it is the most important thing.
> 
> *“It’s also important to keep your hands away from your face,”* said Dr. Vaishampayan. *“Respiratory viruses don’t infect through your skin, they infect through your mucous membranes: the eyes, nose and mouth.*



which why I hate all these "DO NOT PANIC" telling us; do not wear mask, it is not useful bla bla bla:
if you have a mask, you do not touch your nose/mouth even if the mask itself is not preventing contaminated air etc..A SIMPLE DUST MASK CAN HELP HERE
And wearing glasses, there is no way I could do a hand to mucous with a mask..real issue is there are no masks available so we need to save them for critical..aka surgeons and sick people, but yes it is useful
as always, it just kills/ saves 1% so do not bother...unless you happen to be that 1pc..someone is always the 1pc not statistically significant but bloody important if you are the one...


----------



## qldfrog (4 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> are there different types of masks?  which one should we get?



surgical or N95 to filter the air and not let virus go thru but read my view about wearing a mask...as a physical barrier preventing the hand to nose/mouth/eye 
Remember as well in China, everyone is also wearing glasses...sunnies at least to try to avoid air to eye contamination


----------



## Knobby22 (5 March 2020)

Human to dog transmission!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/experts-confirm-human-animal-spread-coronavirus/


----------



## basilio (5 March 2020)

*Medicine shortage fears as India limits exports amid spreading coronavirus outbreak*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...tage-spreads-as-india-limits-exports/12026762


----------



## moXJO (5 March 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Human to dog transmission!
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/experts-confirm-human-animal-spread-coronavirus/



I heard a guy talking about this and his thoughts were that the dog may have picked up airborne or surface particles rather then caught the disease. Or the owner let the dog lick their mouth and nose. Rather like if we coughed on an apple and the apple would then test positive.


----------



## Logique (5 March 2020)

The local supermarkets will be an infectious minefield for the elderly this winter.


----------



## sptrawler (5 March 2020)

Logique said:


> The local supermarkets will be an infectious minefield for the elderly this winter.



There will probably be a rush on wheelchairs, if that gets out.


----------



## moXJO (5 March 2020)

Was just getting lunch at a takeaway. Someone coughed in line and it looked like everyone was prepared to bolt out of there.


----------



## grah33 (5 March 2020)

i just saw the whole isle empty of toilet paper and other paper.  then they replenished and i picked up  4 bags (the limit).  People were looking at me .  It was embarrassing .

I'm guessing we're gonna see more and  more infections get reported now.


(also, thanks for the tips everyone)


----------



## sptrawler (5 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> i just saw the whole isle empty of toilet paper and other paper.  then they replenished and i picked up  4 bags (the limit).  People were looking at me .  It was embarrassing .
> 
> I'm guessing we're gonna see more and  more infections get reported now.
> 
> ...



I've told the grandkids 4 sheets only, so do a risk analysis, before taking the swipe.


----------



## UMike (5 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Can you imagine the conversations in the toilet paper factory. They must have got blindsided.
> 
> The way it's going I won't be wiping my arse for weeks.
> 
> Did you have a run on any items?



I run a Viet/Thai restaurant in a Western area so to a large degree we are unaffected turnover wise.
Just worried about the supply side.

btw Yesterday was a full contact AFL Training for (sweaty) over 35s. No fears of exchanging bodily fluids there.
Amazing the different reactions to this issue.


----------



## qldfrog (5 March 2020)

UMike said:


> I run a Viet/Thai restaurant in a Western area so to a large degree we are unaffected turnover wise.
> Just worried about the supply side.
> 
> btw Yesterday was a full contact AFL Training for (sweaty) over 35s. No fears of exchanging bodily fluids there.
> Amazing the different reactions to this issue.



In Australians mond it is still a Chinese/foreigner's issue
As said orobably 1 month or so ago, just wait till it is Steve or John dying and it will change the mindset from getting stuff before the bloody wog empty  the supermarket
 to 
**** i or my family might die,


----------



## bellenuit (5 March 2020)

I don't know the source of this information, but it is worrying. Only the first 60 seconds is relevant as it seems to have being overlaid on some other unrelated video.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 March 2020)

Looking specifically at the Australian situation:

NT = 1 case (existing)
Tas = 1 case (existing)
WA = 2 cases (1 existing, 1 dead)
SA = 5 cases (3 existing, 2 recovered)
Vic = 10 cases (6 existing, 4 recovered)
Qld = 11 cases (10 existing, 1 recovered)
NSW = 22 cases (17 existing, 4 recovered, 1 dead)

Looking at the trend, we're starting to see the rapid increase that other countries have experienced. Especially so in NSW.


----------



## qldfrog (5 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Looking specifically at the Australian situation:
> 
> NT = 1 case (existing)
> Tas = 1 case (existing)
> ...



13 in Qld just1h ago...it will be hard to keep this updated....


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 March 2020)

Just went to a supermarket and mentioned the great toilet paper panic whilst at the checkout.

Apparently they received a delivery at 5:30pm and the shelves were stocked. Stripped bare by 8:30pm same day.

Amazing.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Just went to a supermarket and mentioned the great toilet paper panic whilst at the checkout.
> 
> Apparently they received a delivery at 5:30pm and the shelves were stocked. Stripped bare by 8:30pm same day.
> 
> Amazing.




There will have to be rationing of such items if this keeps up, it's just ridiculous.


----------



## bluekelah (5 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> There will have to be rationing of such items if this keeps up, it's just ridiculous.



its supposed to be four per person now, but thats not gonna stop the shitty mobs. Good thing i prepped a month ago when it first appeared locally when everyone else was still in the coronavirus=flu mode and nothing to worry about.

Attitudes slowly changing but a little too late. Well not too late if Scomo is willing to do what Singapore has done (major travel hub with almost 6m population but only 2 to 4 new cases each day and zero deaths so far despite 100+ cases) Strict quarantine facilities each state and contact tracing and enforcement of home quarantine. Thats what we need to slow it down and continue to function until a permanent solution can be found. Rather than half assed effort and praying for the best. Once the virus is allowed to spread uncontrolled its too late. We have almost ten countries with more than a hundred cases just this fortnight. Its already a pandemic, W.H.O just doesnt want to admit it yet.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> There will have to be rationing of such items if this keeps up, it's just ridiculous.




When I mentioned it to the lady at the checkout she said there were people waiting in the store for the delivery to arrive. She also said tissues and paper towels are selling in abnormally large volume.

It has also been on the news about police arresting someone in Tamworth due to a fight in a shop relating to toilet paper. The person arrested was a customer apparently.

Incredible really.


----------



## moXJO (6 March 2020)

I might try coughing and sputtering when I'm in a long queue. I wonder if I could clear the entrance to woolies this way before the doors open.


----------



## bellenuit (6 March 2020)

Walked into Farmer Jacks Subiaco today and there were about 80 or so packs of  toilet paper on offer. No queues to get them. Plenty of Detol hand sanitiser available.


----------



## IFocus (6 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Walked into Farmer Jacks Subiaco today and there were about 80 or so packs of  toilet paper on offer. No queues to get them. Plenty of Detol hand sanitiser available.





Most the shops in Mandurah cleaned out


----------



## qldfrog (6 March 2020)

To explain why the WHO is NOT declaring a pandemic
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...4bc326-5cb3-11ea-b014-4fafa866bb81_story.html
WHO gambled with bonds conditionned on no pandemic declaration
Nearly USD 500 millions of investors funds go in smoke if they do
And we are not talking mum and dad investors
If they can hold to June 20, ...
Money.. rotten to the core


----------



## basilio (6 March 2020)

*Dow tumbles 1,000 points again, because stocks can't figure out coronavirus*
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/05/investing/dow-stock-market-today/index.html


----------



## Logique (6 March 2020)

Went shopping at my local Aldi today - not a single sheet of toilet paper, completely cleaned out. 

I'm old enough to remember newspaper sheets on a piece of string. There might be some compulsory nostalgia coming up, although the wholesale suppliers say don't be silly, it's just a fear-based stampede


----------



## Humid (6 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Walked into Farmer Jacks Subiaco today and there were about 80 or so packs of  toilet paper on offer. No queues to get them. Plenty of Detol hand sanitiser available.



Subiaco would be full of bidets if the price of parking is any example


----------



## Logique (6 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> To explain why the WHO is NOT declaring a pandemic
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...4bc326-5cb3-11ea-b014-4fafa866bb81_story.html
> *WHO gambled with bonds* conditionned on no pandemic declaration
> Nearly USD 500 millions of investors funds go in smoke if they do
> ...



Very worrying Qldfrog, it's as if ..hold the bad news until July


----------



## grah33 (6 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I don't know the source of this information, but it is worrying. Only the first 60 seconds is relevant as it seems to have being overlaid on some other unrelated video.




Yeah, it's really terrible,  yet the Who site shows a slower progression


----------



## Dona Ferentes (6 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> To explain why the WHO is NOT declaring a pandemic
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...4bc326-5cb3-11ea-b014-4fafa866bb81_story.html
> WHO gambled with bonds conditioned on no pandemic declaration



Google _*Pandemic Bonds*_ .... now there's an exercise in financial convolution, likely to be of no use to intended beneficiaries



> Pandemic bonds sound like a curious financial concept — but they were brought in by the World Bank in 2017 to help developing economies. Against the odds, the coronavirus outbreak may see investors lose money on them...



https://www.dw.com/en/investors-fle...-coronavirus-set-to-trigger-payout/a-52539926


----------



## satanoperca (6 March 2020)

Please people, before you all go off on some stupid tangent about WHO bonds, do some research as to why they issue them and what they are trying to achieve.

Facts : The issues some high interest rate bonds 6-7%, with those sort of returns there is some risk "YES". So those that buy should understand this.

Why do they issue bonds?
Because there is a deep seated requirement to screw everyone over "NO".

In case of an outbreak of a virus, WHO needs to be able to deploy capital fast in countries all around the world, with having to go through the red tape of the prospective govnuts.

So where do hey get this capital from? F----k me dead, they use financial instruments called BONDS.

So what would you prefer, than when a virus breaks out in a country, WHO can do nothing as they have no money or issue bonds.

 "Google _*Pandemic Bonds*_ .... now there's an exercise in financial convolution, likely to be of no use to intended beneficiari", in a load yielding world, 6% returns so good. So your comment is of no value.

My apologies if I come across as aggressive, but over time I have grown old and get tired of people making comment without having a true understandings of the workings of how humanity works.


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Please people, before you all go off on some stupid tangent about WHO bonds, do some research as to why they issue them and what they are trying to achieve.




The issue isn't with the bonds as such but with the reluctance to state the obvious and use the word "pandemic" when that's clearly what is occurring.


----------



## satanoperca (6 March 2020)

In addition :
I think as I have stated before, this is well and truly overblown and the figures are at best very blurry.

Total infection rate is at least x10 higher, why, the data set is based on people who are tested, those people are generally showing acute symptoms. So the vast majority of people who have been infected never come into the data set, just like the flu each year. How many of you get the flu, and how many of you know that you have been officially recorded as having the flu? Basically <5%.

So, it stand to reason that the mortality rate is <1%.


----------



## satanoperca (6 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The issue isn't with the bonds as such but with the reluctance to state the obvious and use the word "pandemic" when that's clearly what is occurring.




What is the definition of a pandemic?
Just grab this so might not be correct, but is a start :
"Pandemics are large-scale outbreaks of infectious disease that can greatly increase morbidity and mortality over a wide geographic area and cause significant economic, social, and political disruption."

So lets break this down :
*Large Scale outbreak* - define, is it a % of the population in a country or countries? 
*morbidity* - the condition of being diseased. I would say 75% of the population carry some sort of disease, so meaningless.
*mortality *- the state of being subject to death. A bit more serious, an increase from what base, how do we measure this, is it a simple equation or a more complex one. ie if it greatly effects those over > 75 should we be concerned, over the age of >90 again, should we be concerned.
*cause significant economic, social, and political disruption *- this is the easy one, dumb arse people not finding the facts and figures, cannot be easily qualified.

So every year by the above definition we have several pandemics, the various versions of the flu.

Is this a pandemic, NO


----------



## qldfrog (6 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Please people, before you all go off on some stupid tangent about WHO bonds, do some research as to why they issue them and what they are trying to achieve.
> 
> Facts : The issues some high interest rate bonds 6-7%, with those sort of returns there is some risk "YES". So those that buy should understand this.
> 
> ...



I have nothing against the Bonds but a lot against the fact that the incentive for Big Players NOT to declare a pandemic is so high 0.5billion
..and that WHO is following its marching order and delaying a declaration as a result
Waky waky before getting angry, READ the posts


----------



## qldfrog (6 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> What is the definition of a pandemic?
> Just grab this so might not be correct, but is a start :
> "Pandemics are large-scale outbreaks of infectious disease that can greatly increase morbidity and mortality over a wide geographic area and cause significant economic, social, and political disruption."
> 
> ...



Sorry but who cares about your definition , there is a WHO one, feel unlighted and look for it
Over time I have grown old and get tired of people making comment without having any clue.


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> "Pandemics are large-scale outbreaks of infectious disease that can greatly increase morbidity and mortality over a wide geographic area and cause significant economic, social, and political disruption."




The current situation ticks most of those boxes with the only arguable one being what constitutes "greatly" in the context of increasing mortality.

3383 reported deaths thus far - is that enough or not? It's bigger than any recent transport accident for example so as a single incident it's getting up there.

For the rest though, well it's widespread geographically, it's definitely causing significant disruption and so on.

It's not a pandemic in the same way that a ute is not a car but it's rather close.


----------



## wayneL (6 March 2020)

Thread: FYI


----------



## bluekelah (6 March 2020)

Logique said:


> Went shopping at my local Aldi today - not a single sheet of toilet paper, completely cleaned out.
> 
> I'm old enough to remember newspaper sheets on a piece of string. There might be some compulsory nostalgia coming up, although the wholesale suppliers say don't be silly, it's just a fear-based stampede



until they run out of trees coz the lumberjacks are all home coughing with a fever


----------



## satanoperca (6 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Sorry but who cares about your definition , there is a WHO one, feel unlighted and look for it
> Over time I have grown old and get tired of people making comment without having any clue.




Wow, a frog does always show it colours.

No clue, seems that a frog knows better. Please enlighten, I am also old, but not naive.

Maybe the frog is old, hasn't look after oneself, exercised, eaten well or appreciated those around the pond with love and has issues with understanding that life does not go on forever. 

Surely the frog who has access to a computer can buy a mask to safe guard his/hers detorating age against the virus that is no different to the many other viruses that we me humans have to live with.

But do please engage in a conversion other than, have no clue, so pre school


----------



## satanoperca (6 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> 3383 reported deaths thus far - is that enough or not?



While 3383 deaths is not to be dis respected, it does not define a timeline, this is a share forum and time is important, so no 50,000 deaths is not important if over a time period of month and constituents a world population of 5,300,000. It is normal attrition.

This is life, we all have to die at some time, whether it be from a virus, prostate cancer, cancer, heart failure, sh--it the human physical body breaking down etc ....

The things is can you or anyone on this forum accept death?


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> The things is can you or anyone on this forum accept death?



Of course I accept that I will someday die. Everyone knows that from a fairly young age and most people have at least some plans in place for the inevitable.

Just as I accept that everything I own will ultimately be consumed, sold to someone else, recycled or dumped in landfill. Ultimately that's going to happen to every single thing be it something I consider valuable or something purely utilitarian.

The issue here though is about excess deaths. People passing away at a time and under circumstances where they would not normally be expected to die. Most people will find that difficult to accept and not unreasonably so.

Same as most people would object if their accounts go to zero suddenly. Sure, ultimately that's going to happen but there's a difference between someone spending or donating the money of their own accord versus having it stolen.

Looking at the situation right now, the number infected globally has officially passed 100,000 and this is disrupting and in some cases outright preventing the normal operation of everything from education to exhibitions to the tourism industry to the stock market to supermarkets. It is by no means a small impact.

That said, I do agree with those pointing out that the death rate isn't really 3.4%. A more accurate statement would be to say that the death rate is 3.4% among those who develop symptoms serious enough to seek medical attention.

Also I agree that it's not going to be the end of all life on earth and so on. We will go on.

Reality though is that this is going to be one of those events that is still discussed years and even decades after it's over. Add it to the list along with the GFC, September 11 2001, Chernobyl, the shooting of JFK, both World Wars, the Great Depression and so on. Hopefully it's not as bad as some of those but it's one of those things that people not yet born will be at least somewhat aware of having occurred by the time they're an adult.

There's also the personal factor. How many old people would there be right now who are aware of this and thinking that's it, they're going to die? It's going to be stuffing up their mental health etc beyond belief.


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's also the personal factor. How many old people would there be right now who are aware of this and thinking that's it, they're going to die? It's going to be stuffing up their mental health etc beyond belief.



I think that is the worst part of this.


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think that is the worst part of this.



There's one in my own family and we had "the" discussion a few hours ago.

They seriously think there's a chance they'll soon be dead and based on all I can find out about this, their chance of death would be significant if they were to contract the disease (versus living a few more years otherwise). They tick the boxes so far as risk factors are concerned yes.

The whole thing's going to be stressing a lot of people out. Worries about their own health or that of family or friends if they're in an at risk group. Worries among casual workers about losing income and can't pay the bills. Businesses struggling. Etc. 

There's not too many for whom there won't be at least some concern about something even if it does bring opportunity via investment once we near a bottom. Need to be alive to do that.....


----------



## qldfrog (7 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> That said, I do agree with those pointing out that the death rate isn't really 3.4%. A more accurate statement would be to say that the death rate is 3.4% among those who develop symptoms serious enough to seek medical attention.
> 
> Also I agree that it's not going to be the end of all life on earth and so on. We will go on.



Fully agree.
But I think there is a bit of *complacency happening with the belief that only old people die of it*
And the idea behind is:
they die of this but would die of something anyway..
I fall victim of this attitude too and am not really fearing the virus as a death potential

What is old? at 20, any 40y person is an old fart..
In my mind old people is 75 or more, maybe sick .
The gov reports usually say elderly suffering of condition etc DO NOT PANIC
Problem is I do not have any real figure:
have you seen a graph showing death by age? and better *requiring time in ICU?*
First death in France outside tourist  was a french teacher 60y old. among first US affecteds was a 50y old.
The guy who died in China after leaving the hospital as cleared and got a relapse was from memory 28 or 38,
the dead doctor famous for raising the alarm was in his 40s?
Anecdotally, this does not fit with the "only old people die".

How many of the seriously sick requiring hospital stay are actually below 75?
Or is this data kept hidden to restrict panic?
_Only old people die_
is different from _only old people in ICU die_, especially if /when ICU beds are at capacity
28y old on respirator: survives
75y old on respirator: dies
28y old on a bed in the corridor of a collapsing health service?
would be interested to hear from any related report


----------



## IFocus (7 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> While 3383 deaths is not to be dis respected, it does not define a timeline, this is a share forum and time is important, so no 50,000 deaths is not important if over a time period of month and constituents a world population of 5,300,000. It is normal attrition.
> 
> This is life, we all have to die at some time, whether it be from a virus, prostate cancer, cancer, heart failure, sh--it the human physical body breaking down etc ....
> 
> The things is can you or anyone on this forum accept death?




I understand your point but Corona is not business as usual, 20% require hospital care 5% require ICU pick any numbers you like but Australia is not setup to treat those numbers in the time span of a contagion which this will be.

Those numbers will displace normal day to day emergency care and the knock on effect will likely increase the fatality rate of other preventable conditions.

Of course it will be all far more serious if containment can't slow the infection rate.

Its a big deal.


----------



## satanoperca (7 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> I understand your point but Corona is not business as usual, 20% require hospital care 5% require ICU pick any numbers you like but Australia is not setup to treat those numbers in the time span of a contagion which this will be.
> 
> Those numbers will displace normal day to day emergency care and the knock on effect will likely increase the fatality rate of other preventable conditions.
> 
> ...




Where are you getting these figures from?

20% require hospitalization? Sounds like a bit number, just after some evidence.


----------



## satanoperca (7 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> That said, I do agree with those pointing out that the death rate isn't really 3.4%. A more accurate statement would be to say that the death rate is 3.4% among those who develop symptoms serious enough to seek medical attention.



This is a correct statement, unfortunately, people are stupid and will only read 3.4% of people will die.


----------



## IFocus (7 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Where are you getting these figures from?
> 
> 20% require hospitalization? Sounds like a bit number, just after some evidence.




Those numbers have been out there for some time and its been taken very seriously by Australia's medical fraternity, the death rate isn't the only problem but as I aid before pick any number you like its still a very serious problem well beyond previous flu epidemics. 

Worth reading up on the Italian outbreak


https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...a723a2-5c9e-11ea-ac50-18701e14e06d_story.html


----------



## moXJO (7 March 2020)

The problem is they need to force oxygen down your lungs. Only so many beds and spots. You may also need to be knocked out to breathe properly. People will die if the numbers get too high because care will be unavailable.
We can't even stock toilet paper rfs.

I'm still unsure of how bad the illness is because it's hard to find info on exactly what is going on. 
I think satanop  numbers are correct at this point. That can all change if mismanaged of course. But numbers should be a lot worse in China, Iran, Italy if this thing were as bad as the scare campaign. 

Time will tell though.


----------



## basilio (7 March 2020)

Situation in Melbourne could get serious. Interestingly Toorak is  largely populated with older very wealthy people. 

*Melbourne GP clinic closed after doctor tests positive for coronavirus*
Updated 27 minutes ago





* Photo:* The Toorak Clinic has been temporarily closed in the wake of the GP testing positive. (Google Maps) 
A doctor who recently returned from the US and since treated dozens of patients has become Victoria's 11th confirmed coronavirus case, health authorities have said.

State Health Minister Jenny Mikakos said the GP was confirmed to have the virus last night, six days after returning from overseas, and was now recovering at home.

The doctor, from the Toorak Clinic in Malvern Road, consulted about 70 patients between March 2 and yesterday, Ms Mikakos said.

He also treated two patients at a nursing home in Malvern during that time. 
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-07/coronavirus-infects-melbourne-doctor/12023438


----------



## Dona Ferentes (7 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> on the Italian outbreak
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...a723a2-5c9e-11ea-ac50-18701e14e06d_story.html



Yes indeed. Good read


> "“The lesson is that you have to intervene very, very fast and in a very tough manner,” . “Otherwise, you’ll have a high burden of disease that will jeopardize the health system. We cannot compromise.”


----------



## basilio (7 March 2020)

Some thoughts on the GP in Toorak who has fallen ill with the Coronavirus.

He treated 70 patients.  They were, by definition, already ill.  Client profile from the area would be largely older woman in their 60-80's. At a minimum he would have taken blood pressure, temperature and possibly done respiratory checks - tap the back and chest. These are all close action activities.

70 clients over 5 days is only 14 a day. That suggests relatively long consultations 20 min  plus.
This doesn't include other staff at the clinic - ie other doctors, office admin.
The doctor himself is in his 70's.

The two patients he saw in the nursing home would have been even more fragile with some current additional  illness or general deterioration. Depending on when he saw them they would have been attended by a number of staff for various activities.  If they were still walking they would also be having meals with a regular table of people.

All of the patients would have either gone home to families or friends or possibly had family visit them. Husbands, children, visitors, home help etc

*Every one of these direct and indirect contacts  should be in isolation for 14 days*.  I'd be surprised if the final number was less than 500 people.  The nursing home alone would be a real concern.

I would be amazed if, somehow, no one else has  picked up the virus.


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I think there is a bit of *complacency happening with the belief that only old people die of it*



The figures I’ve seen are to the effect that under age 40 the risk is not zero but it’s about 0.2% of those diagnosed.

From 40 onwards it goes up with pre-existing medical conditions being a major factor.

Now the thing about someone having an existing medical issue is that under normal circumstances someone can live literally decades with that.

I’m no doctor but that’s what I’ve read from sources which seemed reasonable but obviously I can’t confirm it.

At a personal level well I know two people who I have major concerns about if they were to get this since both fit the characteristics of those reported to be ending up dead due to this. Both would be expecting to live a few more years under normal circumstances. One is immediate family.

It’s much the same as if someone dies due to being shot or falling off a building under construction. Arguments that we’re all dead eventually anyway don’t cut it at least in developed countries.

It also concerns me where this could end up politically given the origins of it. It’s the sort of thing which could stir up sentiment and trigger something worse than the virus itself.


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 March 2020)

basilio said:


> The nursing home alone would be a real concern.



The very nature of nursing homes is that if one person gets it then fair chance they all get it.

A building full of people all of whom are in relatively poor health, with plety of people coming and going from outside and they’re nowhere even remotely close to a hospital in terms of disinfecting things and so on.


----------



## wayneL (7 March 2020)

Holy snapping @ssholes, Margaret!

This is starting to happen all over. Can people just get a grip!


----------



## greggles (7 March 2020)

The world is laughing at us and we deserve it. We must look like the greatest bunch of hysterical idiots, completely devoid of reason and fighting over toilet paper.

What has happened to this country?


----------



## Dona Ferentes (7 March 2020)

As with the Italian situation, small towns where the demographics are skewed to older people, the younger ones having left for the bigger towns/ cities, I fear for some of the sea/ tree change communities. And this is exacerbated by the relative paucity of health services, what with many being specialist-free and hospitals on a general ward level only.


----------



## qldfrog (7 March 2020)

greggles said:


> The world is laughing at us and we deserve it. We must look like the greatest bunch of hysterical idiots, completely devoid of reason and fighting over toilet paper.
> 
> What has happened to this country?



Do not worry human nature only, at its worst
 same happenning in the uk, wait till the tally increase for behaviour in Europe or US.
I suspect the TP issue started due to our strong chinese presence, they have families telling them of real situation in China..and want to make dure foes not happen to them , or reap $ as some did there


----------



## IFocus (7 March 2020)

greggles said:


> The world is laughing at us and we deserve it. We must look like the greatest bunch of hysterical idiots, completely devoid of reason and fighting over toilet paper.
> 
> What has happened to this country?




Yep look at the government voted in.....sorry couldn't resist.

Interestly it wasn't the government that instigated the corona response but Australia's chef medical officer who has some power to trigger the actions required.

I wonder if the containment works and we sail through this OK coming out the other side the story will be how unnecessary the aggressive containment was?


----------



## qldfrog (7 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Those numbers have been out there for some time and its been taken very seriously by Australia's medical fraternity, the death rate isn't the only problem but as I aid before pick any number you like its still a very serious problem well beyond previous flu epidemics.
> 
> Worth reading up on the Italian outbreak
> 
> ...



Very good article indeed
And i quote
The 38-year-old Italian who was the first to test positive in the Lombardy region, and who remains in intensive care, had not traveled abroad, and doctors initially sent him home from the hospital.
So at 38 he is not dead but still in icu 2 weeks later..
I do not know how long it will take for some people to get it
No it is not just another flu
And the options ahead are from
 very bad to catastrophic
Anyway, let's have a bit of Darwin selection for once.


----------



## satanoperca (7 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> And the options ahead are from
> very bad to catastrophic




*So now I know who has been buying all the TP.*

Can you please provide some statistical representation of very bad to catastropic and stop being an alarmist.

I will give you a hand :
Catastrophic : 100 % infection rate 5% mortality rate across all age demographics
Very Bad : 100% infection rate, 5% mortality rate for those 50-60, 10% for those above 60 years of age.

Why do humans believe they can control nature?


----------



## cutz (7 March 2020)

greggles said:


> The world is laughing at us and we deserve it. We must look like the greatest bunch of hysterical idiots, completely devoid of reason and fighting over toilet paper.
> 
> What has happened to this country?




Disgusting.

Morons reselling Quilton paper on Ebay at inflated prices !!!! 

Are there laws governing this sort of behaviour, took screenshots to report but I suspect it's a lost cause.


----------



## macca (7 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> The problem is they need to force oxygen down your lungs. Only so many beds and spots. You may also need to be knocked out to breathe properly. People will die if the numbers get too high because care will be unavailable.
> We can't even stock toilet paper rfs.
> 
> I'm still unsure of how bad the illness is because it's hard to find info on exactly what is going on.
> ...




I find your first line very interesting, my wife is a chronic asthmatic, to the extent that we carry a nebuliser with us all the time.

I wonder have they tried a nebuliser on those who are sick ..................


----------



## moXJO (7 March 2020)

macca said:


> I find your first line very interesting, my wife is a chronic asthmatic, to the extent that we carry a nebuliser with us all the time.
> 
> I wonder have they tried a nebuliser on those who are sick ..................



Here's a better description then anything I could type.


Excellent channel.


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> I will give you a hand :
> Catastrophic : 100 % infection rate 5% mortality rate across all age demographics
> Very Bad : 100% infection rate, 5% mortality rate for those 50-60, 10% for those above 60 years of age.



Governments and most large organisations already have established procedures for classifying risk and actual occurrences.

Using the ones I'm familiar with, the impact of this virus already meets the definition of "Critical" in terms of what has already occurred. The only level above "Critical" is "Catastrophic".

All governments have something like that already drawn up and so do many large businesses. If someone's dead then it's immediately in the highest or second highest category that's a given.


----------



## satanoperca (8 March 2020)

Thanks Smurf, 

I am aware the govnuts and large companies have such procedures and plans in place for possible events that we are currently in.

My question is, does anyone know what the govnuts are both state and federally. If they allow the media to run with this, the situation economically is going to be a whole lot worse than potentially the virus itself.

Maybe the reason for people panicking, is that cannot see it, so are fearful, similar to how the church(s) worked with god, who cannot be seen and bought fee among he masses centuries ago.


----------



## basilio (8 March 2020)

basilio said:


> Situation in Melbourne could get serious. Interestingly Toorak is  largely populated with older very wealthy people.
> 
> *Melbourne GP clinic closed after doctor tests positive for coronavirus*
> Updated 27 minutes ago
> ...




It's tough isn't it ? The doctor at the centre of this issue believes he is owed an apology for being trashed by the Health Minister. 

I can readily see his point.  This a rapidly changing landscape. I think this was the first instance of a person coming from the US  spreading the virus. And a week ago the US was just  hearing about the *first US person to person i*nfection.  Why would one come back from the US with a sniffle and think I have picked up the virus? 

_4:17 PM / February 27, 2020 
*California officials trying to trace new coronavirus patient's contacts*


California officials revealed only minimal details Thursday about what is believed to be the first case of community transmission of coronavirus in the U.S., meaning the patient was probably infected by someone in the general population. "We know that there were a number of days that she was in her community and that she then did begin accessing care," state Health and Human Services Secretary Dr. Mark Ghaly told reporters.

The female patient is in isolation at UC Davis Medical Center in Sacramento, and health officials are trying to trace her contacts. "Step by step, we look at where they've been and who they might have been in direct communication with," said Dr. Sonia Angell, the state's public health officer.

This is the 15th case to originate in the U.S. The other 14 cases involved either people who traveled to China or who had close contact with an infected patient._
https://www.cbsnews.com/live-update...ll-infections-latest-news-updates-2020-02-27/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...higgins-hits-back-at-health-minister/12036910


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 March 2020)

This makes me angry: https://www.themercury.com.au/news/...o/news-story/19cb24117687f745c8bd3058058fa8bb

It's a total disregard for the health of a large number of other people to be told to self-isolate and then not simply go out in public but to work in a restaurant that's part of a large hotel and to go out partying is just ridiculous. 

There is however a good list of the symptoms associated with this disease further down the article with fever and dry cough the most common but plenty of others.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 March 2020)

Comparing now to 25th of February, just 12 days ago:

Italy = 230 infections then (now 5883)
Iran = 61 (now 6566)
Germany = 16 (now 939)
France = 12 (now 949)
Spain = 2 (now 589)

I'll now point out that Australia's present total of 70 is more than Iran had less than two weeks ago.

If we simply replicated France or Germany, both of which are developed countries with plenty of hospitals and money etc, then two weeks from now we'll be circa 5000 and at that point we've got zero chance of coping.


----------



## wayneL (9 March 2020)

Thread: Really interesting on how soap kills viruses


----------



## basilio (9 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Comparing now to 25th of February, just 12 days ago:
> 
> Italy = 230 infections then (now 5883)
> Iran = 61 (now 6566)
> ...





Maybe... perhaps not ?  I suppose the critical question is how widespread were the infections in the community before the first ones were actually identified ? If for example there are actually 300 people infected but only a couple properly identified then we are all toast. (Or if the initial figures are dodgy)  It is then on the march.  If the virus has been contained to those who have been identified as bringing it in and we have kept a close eye on their family and contacts maybe... we won't go in the  current direction.

I will be very interested to see the outcome of the Dr Higgins doctor situation.  He saw 70 people in close contact plus patients in a nursing home.

But I wouldn't want to bet against the trend.


----------



## Tink (9 March 2020)

We will be in Austria in a month.

Just looking at smart travel

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/europe/austria


----------



## basilio (9 March 2020)

Life in quarantine.
Obviously no fun *but the infection rate is plummeting.  *Do we just bite the bullet if we have to?*

Coronavirus quarantine is no fun, but isolation in China's epicentre is becoming desperate
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ntine-in-beijing-no-fun-bill-birtles/12032244

*


----------



## basilio (9 March 2020)

This is disturbing.  Apparently someone else on the flight that Dr Chris Higgins took from the US has come down with the virus.

Implications.
1) He was infected by Dr Higgins
2) *Or* he infected Dr Higgins
3) And/or  other people  on the plane could also be infected or indeed the carrier.

Also suggests further infections are likely from Dr Higgins attention to clients.  Not good news at all.

*Victoria's official coronavirus COVID-19 tally rises to 15 after three new cases confirmed*

Health Minister Jenny Mikakos said one of the latest cases was a man in his 50s, who was on the same flight from the US as Toorak GP Chris Higgins, who was diagnosed with the virus on Friday.
She said it was not clear whether the man had contracted the virus on the plane or afterwards.
He developed mild symptoms the day after the flight landed on February 29 and is recovering at home in self-isolation.
Before his diagnosis, the man visited Wine by Sam in Seymour on March 3, between 12:30pm and 3:30pm.
On March 5, he attended a private film screening at Cinema Nova in Carlton from 7:30pm to 10:30pm.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-09/victoria-records-new-coronavirus-covid-19-cases/12038048


----------



## Value Collector (9 March 2020)

basilio said:


> Maybe... perhaps not ?  I suppose the critical question is how widespread were the infections in the community before the first ones were actually identified ? If for example there are actually 300 people infected but only a couple properly identified then we are all toast. (Or if the initial figures are dodgy)  It is then on the march.  If the virus has been contained to those who have been identified as bringing it in and we have kept a close eye on their family and contacts maybe... we won't go in the  current direction.
> 
> I will be very interested to see the outcome of the Dr Higgins doctor situation.  He saw 70 people in close contact plus patients in a nursing home.
> 
> But I wouldn't want to bet against the trend.




I expect in each country that gets the virus, the number of cases will steadily rise for two - three weeks, after the initial case is discovered, then the number of total cases will begin to drop as the original ones recover or die, and the infection rate drops due to additional precautions are taken.


----------



## bellenuit (9 March 2020)

Tink said:


> We will be in Austria in a month.




You are brave. I personally wouldn't take the risk of travelling abroad at the moment. Hope it all goes well.


----------



## basilio (9 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I expect in each country that gets the virus, the number of cases will steadily rise for two - three weeks, after the initial case is discovered, then the number of total cases will begin to drop as the original ones recover or die, and the infection rate drops due to additional precautions are taken.




Not quite what I meant VC. I  was posing the question as to the *accuracy* of initial estimates of infected people.  If for example the government announces they have found 3 infections but in fact they have missed 300 other people with the virus than  the genie is out of the bottle.

On the other hand if the first statement is  very close to the mark then there may still be a chance of closing down widespread circulation of the virus.


----------



## MrChow (9 March 2020)

If you took the numbers from China and Korea and explained them it would sound exactly like ValueCollector's summary.

XAO hit -19.2% today and think it's not a bad level don't see much downside until there's follow through in real life.


----------



## Value Collector (9 March 2020)

basilio said:


> Not quite what I meant VC. I  was posing the question as to the *accuracy* of initial estimates of infected people.  If for example the government announces they have found 3 infections but in fact they have missed 300 other people with the virus than  the genie is out of the bottle.
> 
> On the other hand if the first statement is  very close to the mark then there may still be a chance of closing down widespread circulation of the virus.




I would expect if they have found 3 people with the virus, then their is multiple others carrying it in the incubation stage, that’s just a given.

hence why I said after the initial positive diagnosis the number should continue to rise for 2 weeks or so.

Eg, even if the whole country was immediately put on lockdown, and the infection rate was brought to zero, you should still expect to the total number of daily positive cases to keep growing for a while, before it plateaus, and then collapses.


----------



## basilio (9 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I would expect if they have found 3 people with the virus, then their is multiple others carrying it in the incubation stage, that’s just a given.
> 
> hence why I said after the initial positive diagnosis the number should continue to rise for 2 weeks or so.
> 
> Eg, even if the whole country was immediately put on lockdown, and the infection rate was brought to zero, you should still expect to the total number of daily positive cases to keep growing for a while, before it plateaus, and then collapses.



Fair enough.  I suppose the question is still how many people are at various stages of infection.
Also worth recognising that many people will only have a mild dose and not turn up as affected.- but they could still be passing on stronger infections to others.
All a challenge.


----------



## Value Collector (9 March 2020)

basilio said:


> Also worth recognising that many people will only have a mild dose and not turn up as affected.- but they could still be passing on stronger infections to others.
> .




Yes, for sure there is people That go  unreported, but if you think about it that means the virus is actually less dangerous than The numbers suggest.

Eg. If it only exists in the reported cases then it death rate looks high at 5% or so.

but if 50% of the cases go unreported and the host recovers without treatment, then the death rate drops to 2.5%.

mean while heart disease is still killing an Australian every 12 minutes, and we are all still smashing saturated fats and cholesterol into our veins without a second thought.

Corona Virus is bad, but it’s nothing to panic about, just take standard precautions and soldier on everything is going to be fine.


----------



## MrChow (9 March 2020)

I'm predicting the next 3 months will have positive returns.

So June XAO higher than 5822.

Based on Coronavirus peaking and subsiding without too much damage, positive outlook for Q3 GDP to bounce back and avoid a Recession and no systematic shocks to the Financial System from spillage of current risk factors.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 March 2020)

I'm predicting the opposite. Another big drop to come in a couple of weeks.
A worldwide banking crisis with some European banks going broke, many US banks going broke and Westpac and NAB in trouble on top of massive unemployment.


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I'm predicting the opposite. Another big drop to come in a couple of weeks.
> A worldwide banking crisis with some European banks going broke, many US banks going broke and Westpac and NAB in trouble on top of massive unemployment.



That is a big call Knobby.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> That is a big call Knobby.



I thought Mr Chows call was big.


----------



## bluekelah (9 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yes, for sure there is people That go  unreported, but if you think about it that means the virus is actually less dangerous than The numbers suggest.
> 
> Eg. If it only exists in the reported cases then it death rate looks high at 5% or so.
> 
> ...




2.5% is still pretty high mate. We have roughly 25million+pop. lets say 10million get it. thats 250,000 deaths we are looking at vs a cuppla hundred from seasonal flu every year. And if you compare to heart disease, 12 per minute means 43,800 deaths a year from heart disease. Which means COVID 19 could be killing someone every cuppla minuutes in the coming year assuming only 10 million get infected. If it goes through 100% of population that would be one death per minute.


You gotta be drinking the koolaid if you think thats nothing to panic about...


----------



## bluekelah (9 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> That is a big call Knobby.



I'd be making the same call. We might even move back to gold standard with fiat currencies becoming not even worth the paper they are printed on.


----------



## bluekelah (9 March 2020)

MrChow said:


> I'm predicting the next 3 months will have positive returns.
> 
> So June XAO higher than 5822.
> 
> Based on Coronavirus peaking and subsiding without too much damage, positive outlook for Q3 GDP to bounce back and avoid a Recession and no systematic shocks to the Financial System from spillage of current risk factors.



If you knew more about this virus, you would then know that its not going away anytime soon. 

Countries are looking at either economic mayhem with lock downs, or health system mayhem without lock downs. And once you lower your guard like whats happening in China restarting factories etc, the virus will just have a resurgence and you are back to lockdown quarantine again. Just wait for it and see how it spreads in Guangdong province china where big manufacturers are like the foxconn factory making iphones.


----------



## Value Collector (9 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> 2.5% is still pretty high mate. We have roughly 25million+pop. lets say 10million get it. thats 250,000 deaths we are looking at vs a cuppla hundred from seasonal flu every year. You gotta be drinking the koolaid if you think thats nothing to panic about...




10,000,000???? total global infections only are a little over 100k at the moment, that’s 1% of that number, if you think Australia is going to hit 10,000,000 infections you’re crazy.

but either way, my point was simply that 2.5% is better than 5%, maybe reread my post.

Any way in the mean time 43,000 Australians will die of heart disease this year, dwarfing anything likely to come from corona virus, but that’s just business as usual, I guess nothing to see here, even though one of the reasons people are dying of corona virus is because of pre existing conditions such heart disease.


----------



## Value Collector (9 March 2020)

MrChow said:


> I'm predicting the next 3 months will have positive returns.
> 
> So June XAO higher than 5822.
> 
> Based on Coronavirus peaking and subsiding without too much damage, positive outlook for Q3 GDP to bounce back and avoid a Recession and no systematic shocks to the Financial System from spillage of current risk factors.




I think you are right.


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I thought Mr Chows call was big.



His was fairly general, yours was quite specific, which IMO is more courageous.
I tend to lean toward Mr Chows prognosis though.
The difference I think will eventuate is, the virus will resurface a few times untill immunity in the population increases, it may be an annual event for a while untill a vacine is found.


----------



## MrChow (9 March 2020)

FTSE opened -11% down, wowee.

Recovered about half of that this hour.


----------



## Value Collector (9 March 2020)

Just to compare corona to some other nasty stuff, Ebola has a death rate up to 90%.


----------



## satanoperca (9 March 2020)

Well there is always a positive from a negative, reduced global population should reduce global warming in the short term.

You cannot stop nature from fighting back and humans are the virus of planet earth.


----------



## bluekelah (9 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> 10,000,000???? total global infections only are a little over 100k at the moment, that’s 1% of that number, if you think Australia is going to hit 10,000,000 infections you’re crazy.
> 
> but either way, my point was simply that 2.5% is better than 5%, maybe reread my post.
> 
> Any way in the mean time 43,000 Australians will die of heart disease this year, dwarfing anything likely to come from corona virus, but that’s just business as usual, I guess nothing to see here, even though one of the reasons people are dying of corona virus is because of pre existing conditions such heart disease.




experts put the eventual disease prevalence anywhere from 30% to 70%. It might even be 100% eventually given this is a novel virus non of us have immunity to unlike flu viruses where we might have had it in previous seasons or had flu shots.

As i said, lets give this virus a few months to run through our population of 25million and see whether we get 10million cases eventually.

The only reason COvid19 hasnt even reached one million cases is because of effective draconian lockdown efforts in china. THey have 1.25billion people, and if it got out of control it wouldnt just be millions of cases but tens of millions of cases.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 March 2020)

So far as there's this debate about the death rate, how many infected and so on I think the big problem is nobody knows for certain.

It's not like, say, the Boeing 737 MAX problem. In that case there's a known number of aircraft and it's known who owns them with the only question being how long they're on the ground.

Or something like, say, if the Saudi's had stopped selling oil completely rather than doing the opposite. In that case it would be a known problem with volume and just a question of how long.

This virus has the difficulty that the volume is unknown and so is the duration. That's the difficult bit - both key aspects are unknowns. The markets would cope far better if either the volume of impact or its duration were known but since neither are that's a real problem.


----------



## Humid (10 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> experts put the eventual disease prevalence anywhere from 30% to 70%. It might even be 100% eventually given this is a novel virus non of us have immunity to unlike flu viruses where we might have had it in previous seasons or had flu shots.
> 
> As i said, lets give this virus a few months to run through our population of 25million and see whether we get 10million cases eventually.
> 
> The only reason COvid19 hasnt even reached one million cases is because of effective draconian lockdown efforts in china. THey have 1.25billion people, and if it got out of control it wouldnt just be millions of cases but tens of millions of cases.




Experts would of told me to dump my shares two weeks ago and buy dunny roll

Who do you believe?
The distrust of government doesn’t help
Strange days indeed


----------



## bluekelah (10 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Experts would of told me to dump my shares two weeks ago and buy dunny roll
> 
> Who do you believe?
> The distrust of government doesn’t help
> Strange days indeed



That would make me an expert, i was already stocking up supplies a month ago and moving my portfolio into gold and cash position of 70% to 30%stocks


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Experts would of told me to dump my shares two weeks ago and buy dunny roll




It perhaps summarises the situation rather well by saying that if any bona fide financial advisor had said exactly that then they'd likely have been removed from their duties without delay, the only question in the boss' mind being whether to sack them or call a psychiatrist.

The idea would have seemed so ludicrous as to be completely unbelievable and yet it would have been precisely correct. 

There's a lesson in that somewhere.


----------



## DB008 (10 March 2020)

Tuesday 10th March

Total infected - 113,575
Total Deaths - 3,995
Total recovered - 62, 949

Highest infections outside of China - Italy with 9,172

Australia is 131 infected with 3 deaths


----------



## DB008 (10 March 2020)

John Travolta was hospitalized for suspected COVID-19, but doctors now confirm that it was only Saturday Night Fever, and they assure everyone that he is Staying Alive.


----------



## wayneL (10 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> It perhaps summarises the situation rather well by saying that if any bona fide financial advisor had said exactly that then they'd likely have been removed from their duties without delay, the only question in the boss' mind being whether to sack them or call a psychiatrist.
> 
> The idea would have seemed so ludicrous as to be completely unbelievable and yet it would have been precisely correct.
> 
> There's a lesson in that somewhere.



Yes indeed, that's why people get crap advice and why mutual funds underperform. What you have in the mainstream financial community is hive mind where nobody step out if the orthodoxy.


----------



## Humid (10 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> That would make me an expert, i was already stocking up supplies a month ago and moving my portfolio into gold and cash position of 70% to 30%stocks




Can you let me know when to buy then?


----------



## basilio (10 March 2020)

A constructive view of dealing with the Corona virus in  China. 

 Print  Email  Facebook  Twitter  More
*I've spent one month in lockdown in China because of coronavirus. This is what I've learnt*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-10/spending-a-month-in-lockdown-in-beijing-coronavirus/12032942


----------



## basilio (10 March 2020)

Nice one. Interesting to see if any other execs follow suit - even partially.

_To help cut costs, Qantas’s chief executive *Alan Joyce* – Australia’s highest paid executive who took home nearly AUD$24m (about £12m) in 2018 – will take no salary this financial year._
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...te-latest-news#block-5e66c5a38f085f0b8d94542f


----------



## MrChow (10 March 2020)

XAO just opened -200 points down @ 5601.

-23.1% fall from peak.

Looks like heading into the green now though.

Only a recession would justify taking this further to -30% so think there's not alot of downside until worst case scenario actually happens.

EG. GFC wasn't -30% until Lehman collapsed and Dot Com wasn't -30% until 9/11. 

(Caveat: I really hope Trump didn't do a presser with Coronavirus)


----------



## wayneL (10 March 2020)

MrChow said:


> XAO just opened -200 points down @ 5601.
> 
> -23.1% fall from peak.
> 
> ...



The buy dips, bargain hunter crowd.

Are stocks a bargain now?

I posit they have just gone from ludicrously expensive to extremely expensive.

Of course the big question is, will stocks go to fantastically expensive beyond belief, or back to some sort of value?

I packed away my crystal ball somewhere and I can't find the damn thing, so I have no idea.


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2020)

indeed and the less profit the higher the PE....


----------



## wayneL (10 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> indeed and the less profit the higher the PE....



^^^^indeed!

How the feck do we even calculate value at this point?


----------



## bluekelah (10 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Can you let me know when to buy then?



i will let you know right now. U can buy in when the Aords index is down 30% that would signal a true crash which you can then slowly put in 10% of your cash position. U can never pick the bottom, the best is to buy when stocks are dirt cheap and no one else is buying. good to monitor daily trade volumes too, it will go quiet once every one has done selling, shorts are done covering and no one is interested in stocks any more, either too afraid to invest or out chasing other assets like property or gold.


----------



## bluekelah (10 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> ^^^^indeed!
> 
> How the feck do we even calculate value at this point?




net asset value per share. and then apply a discount for non cash items.

if looking at the market as a whole, u can use market cap of stocks / GDP ratio. This is one indicator Warren buffet uses as a macro gauge. If this is a real crisis type crash, stocks will start looking cheap when that ratio goes below 100%

https://www.gurufocus.com/global-market-valuation.php?country=AUS


----------



## IFocus (10 March 2020)

Something I have been meaning to write about and that's the federal government's stimulus package or their response.
So for SP feelings I mention it here

Arguments aside whether stimulus is the way to go or not.

Given its a market mover worthy of a discussion.

Listening to the language i hear a lot of political dog whistling about controlling the money, targeted, not over spending or wasting money etc this is all political which is concerning its not aggressive posture.

Lets not talk about the wasted billions pork barrelling marginal seats or the $2bill for bush fires that doesn't exist then there is the problems getting loans to business affect by bush fires.
This is corrupt behavior or terrible deployment or lack of ability to enact policy remember this is a policy free government they have enacted very little.

I get the feeling Morrison thinks he is 1/2 smart in regards to stimulus my gut feel is they will under spend sacrifice much of the work force and low income households and screw it up........i genuinely hope I am wrong.


----------



## IFocus (10 March 2020)

Further to the above a reminder of Ken Henrys simulus was house holds to support retail who at the time were the biggest employers.

Much has been said after how mining saved the day, a reminder mining shed 13% to 19% plus of its workforce luckily it wasn't a major employer at the time. 

Mining came to the fore long after the storm past and was a major contributor in the recovery.


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> I get the feeling Morrison thinks he is 1/2 smart in regards to stimulus my gut feel is they will under spend sacrifice much of the work force and low income households and screw it up........i genuinely hope I am wrong.



Good to see you having one each way.
I hope the stimulus works, I'm sure most others do also and I will be the first to criticise the Government if it is crap.


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Further to the above a reminder of Ken Henrys simulus was house holds to support retail who at the time were the biggest employers.
> 
> Much has been said after how mining saved the day, a reminder mining shed 13% to 19% plus of its workforce luckily it wasn't a major employer at the time.
> 
> Mining came to the fore long after the storm past and was a major contributor in the recovery.



Fortunately most of Australia don't wear glasses. Anyway history is history, it was what is was and it will be remembered fondly by some not so by others.
We will see if the same applies to this round of batts, halls and plasma's.


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Further to the above a reminder of Ken Henrys simulus was house holds to support retail who at the time were the biggest employers.
> 
> Much has been said after how mining saved the day, a reminder mining shed 13% to 19% plus of its workforce luckily it wasn't a major employer at the time.
> 
> Mining came to the fore long after the storm past and was a major contributor in the recovery.



I was employed in mining at the time and I do not remember much job being shed at all:
past the first month or so of general panic, prices went up and boom carried on, the real crisis happened in Qld much later with lower coal price etc
The AUD fell and AUD coal price per tonne was lower than the peak but even in 2009 was basically at current level...aka very high considering it was 11y ago...





So yes, Australia or qld at least was saved by the Chinese stimulus


----------



## IFocus (10 March 2020)

“In the first six months of 2009, in the immediate aftermath of the shock waves occasioned by the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the Australian mining industry shed 15.2 per cent of its employees. Had every industry in Australia behaved in the same way, our unemployment rate would have increased from 4.6 per cent to 19 per cent in six months. Mining investment collapsed; mining output collapsed. So the Australian mining industry had quite a deep recession while the Australian economy did not have a recession.” (Page E17.)

https://www.tai.org.au/content/did-mining-boom-save-australia-gfc-check-facts


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2020)

Jeez IFocus, the Australian Institute  any further left and they would fall over IMO.
Now for a more thorough explanation from the RBA.
https://www.rba.gov.au/education/resources/explainers/the-global-financial-crisis.html
From the article:
*Australia and the GFC*
*Relatively strong economic performance*
_Australia did not experience a large economic downturn or a financial crisis during the GFC. However, the pace of economic growth did slow significantly, the unemployment rate rose sharply and there was a period of heightened uncertainty. The relatively strong performance of the Australian economy and financial system during the GFC, compared with other countries, reflected a range of factors, including:
_

*Australian banks had very small exposures to the US housing market and US banks, partly because domestic lending was very profitable.*
*Subprime and other high-risk loans were only a small share of lending in Australia, partly because of the historical focus on lending standards by the Australian banking regulator (the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority (APRA)).*
*Australia's economy was buoyed by large resource exports to China, whose economy rebounded quickly after the initial GFC shock (mainly due to expansionary fiscal policy).*
*Also a large policy response*
_Despite the Australian financial system being in a much better position before the GFC, given the magnitude of the shock to the global economy and to confidence more broadly, there was also a large policy response in Australia to ensure that the economy did not suffer a major downturn. In particular, the Reserve Bank lowered the cash rate significantly, and the Australian Government undertook expansionary fiscal policy and provided guarantees on deposits at and bonds issued by Australian banks.

Following the crisis, APRA implemented the stronger global banking regulations in Australia. Together, APRA and the financial market and corporate regulator, the Australian Securities and Investments Commission, have also strengthened lending standards to make the financial and private sectors more resilient._

Big Kev just couldn't miss an opportunity and we have been recovering from it ever since.


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2020)

It looks like you can earn some money, if you get infected with corona virus.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...don-pay-volunteers-3-500-develop-vaccine.html
From the article:
*Get PAID to have coronavirus: Scientists in London will pay volunteers £3,500 to be infected in experiments to develop a vaccine for the deadly virus*

*Scientists based in Whitechapel will recruit 24 members of the public*
*The study will test if a jab developed by Hvivo will successfully fight COVID-19*
*Participants will be injected with two weaker strains of the coronavirus*
*Some 20 vaccines are in development and the UK government will fund £46m*
*Volunteers could be paid £3,500 to be infected with the coronavirus as scientists race to find a vaccine.*
*The testing is part of a $2bn global effort to find a vaccine for coronavirus, as Europe has experienced a huge surge in cases in the past two weeks. *


----------



## bluekelah (10 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It looks like you can earn some money, if you get infected with corona virus.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...don-pay-volunteers-3-500-develop-vaccine.html
> From the article:
> ...




Wow is direct human testing allowed without testing on animals first?


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> Wow is direct human testing allowed without testing on animals first?



It must be, if the Government is worried enough, or else preliminary testing has already been carried out.


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> “In the first six months of 2009, in the immediate aftermath of the shock waves occasioned by the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the Australian mining industry shed 15.2 per cent of its employees. Had every industry in Australia behaved in the same way, our unemployment rate would have increased from 4.6 per cent to 19 per cent in six months. Mining investment collapsed; mining output collapsed. So the Australian mining industry had quite a deep recession while the Australian economy did not have a recession.” (Page E17.)
> 
> https://www.tai.org.au/content/did-mining-boom-save-australia-gfc-check-facts



ah well must be true if they say it, was just working at BHP at the time and must have been living the dream


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I was employed in mining at the time and I do not remember much job being shed at all:
> past the first month or so of general panic, prices went up and boom carried on, the real crisis happened in Qld much later with lower coal price etc
> The AUD fell and AUD coal price per tonne was lower than the peak but even in 2009 was basically at current level...aka very high considering it was 11y ago...
> View attachment 101176
> ...







production increasing until 2010..so no reduction in production here
Anyway, sure tai knows better


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> View attachment 101178
> 
> production increasing until 2010..so no reduction in production here
> Anyway, sure tai knows better



To close the debate:




we even increased the overall mineral production by more than 5% from 2009 to 2010: Australia has been saved by Chine in the GFC.
Now what about for this crisis?.


----------



## Humid (10 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> ah well must be true if they say it, was just working at BHP at the time and must have been living the dream




Contractors were thinned out pretty quickly in WA and all non essentials not staff


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Contractors were thinned out pretty quickly in WA and all non essentials not staff



Unfortunately whenever a company sees a cloud on the horizon, the contractors get laid off, even if a storm isn't coming.
That's one of the reasons contractors usually get paid pretty well.


----------



## IFocus (10 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Contractors were thinned out pretty quickly in WA and all non essentials not staff




I remember it was carnage in WA.

What people get mixed up about is the mining boom which certainly helped but employees were dumped had that been retail then the GFC would have been a very different out come for Australia.


----------



## satanoperca (10 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> experts put the eventual disease prevalence anywhere from 30% to 70%. It might even be 100% eventually given this is a novel virus non of us have immunity to unlike flu viruses where we might have had it in previous seasons or had flu shots.
> 
> As i said, lets give this virus a few months to run through our population of 25million and see whether we get 10million cases eventually.
> 
> The only reason COvid19 hasnt even reached one million cases is because of effective draconian lockdown efforts in china. THey have 1.25billion people, and if it got out of control it wouldnt just be millions of cases but tens of millions of cases.




This is the sort of crap that is adding to the problem.

"experts put the eventual disease prevalence anywhere from 30% to 70%." Who are the expects and what does these % mean. Just more bull--it

Again, just crap with no meaning.
"25million and see whether we get 10million cases eventually.". It can effect 100% of the population, that is 25M people, if all they get is a headache for 24 hours who cares.

"The only reason COvid19 hasnt even reached one million cases is because of effective draconian lockdown efforts in china."
Well we could say that about the ASX not getting to 10,000. More meaningless statements, could of, would of, might be, maybe, if the aliens come down we could see....bla bla bla.

"THey have 1.25billion people," Well you got one thing correct.

But lets play your next crap statement: 
"it wouldnt just be millions of cases but tens of millions of cases." so can we say 30M people infected out of 1.3B, 2.3% of the population and out of them so will die.

Global warming has a chance.

So Bluey, can anything to add to a constructive conversation on the real impact of this situation other than 2 dollar journalism.


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2020)

Anyway, during the gfc, mining output continued to rise, China stimulus bumped us up, and local incentives plus plunging in debt ensured most kept their jobs and RE kept running
Not as easy to bump an economy in lockdown.no point giving money if shops and restaurant are closed.this is more survival than stimulus money, and we might need it.


----------



## basilio (11 March 2020)

The corona virus is out of control in Italy.  The government has effectively put the place in quarantine.
To understand the breadth of that decision and then consider the impact on  the economy check out the story below.

I came across a very interesting Chinese blog site from Beijing. They have been under a similar regime for around 6 weeks now. 21 million people effectively locked down. The result has been a successful reduction of the corona virus but n fact there have been no more than 400 cases to cases. Italy has over 7000 and multiplying.

If this gets away in Australia  we will also have the choice of similar closure of almost all sporting, cultural and social activities or taking a punt of dealing with teh effects of an unstopped nation wide infection with around around a 1-2% fatality rate.  

* Don't travel, don't socialise, stay inside: Italy's coronavirus lockdown rules *
Country’s prime minister has put the nation of 60 million people under special quarantine measures
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t-socialise-italys-coronavirus-lockdown-rules

https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2020/01/22/coronavirus-count-in-beijing


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2020)

basilio said:


> The corona virus is out of control in Italy.  The government has effectively put the place in quarantine.
> To understand the breadth of that decision and then consider the impact on  the economy check out the story below.
> 
> I came across a very interesting Chinese blog site from Beijing. They have been under a similar regime for around 6 weeks now. 21 million people effectively locked down. The result has been a successful reduction of the corona virus but n fact there have been no more than 400 cases to cases. Italy has over 7000 and multiplying.
> ...



Bas you should write a book, how to prepare for armageddon, you certainly know how to research.


----------



## basilio (11 March 2020)

Numbers infected with corona virus in Europe

The latest from the European centre for disease prevention and control is that 14,890 cases have been reported in the EU/EEA and the UK: Italy (9,172), France (1,412), Spain (1,204), Germany (1,139), Netherlands (321), United Kingdom (321), Sweden (248), Belgium (239), Norway (192), Austria (131), Denmark (113), Greece (84), Iceland (65), Czech Republic (40), Finland (40), Portugal (39), Ireland (21), Poland (17), Romania (17), Slovenia (16), Croatia (12), Estonia (10), Hungary (9), Latvia (6), Luxembourg (5), Slovakia (5), Bulgaria (4), Malta (4), Cyprus (2), Liechtenstein (1) and Lithuania (1).

As of 10 March, 532 deaths have been reported in the EU/EEA and the UK: Italy (464), France (30), Spain (28), United Kingdom (5), Netherlands (3) and Germany (2).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...cases-usa-america-australia-live-news-updates


----------



## basilio (11 March 2020)

If you check out The Guardian blog you will see that practically all of Europe is closing down public spaces  to slow the spread of the virus.

Not much chance to spend money I think.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...cases-usa-america-australia-live-news-updates


----------



## Value Collector (11 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> The buy dips, bargain hunter crowd.
> 
> Are stocks a bargain now?
> 
> .




Yes, especially FMG.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 March 2020)

195 countries in the world and 115 of them now have at least one infection.

Current Australian situation:

NT = 1 case (active)
Tas = 2 (both active)
WA = 6 (5 active, 1 death)
SA = 7 (5 active, 2 recovered)
Qld = 18 (10 active, 8 recovered)
Vic = 18 (11 active, 7 recovered)
NSW = 55 (49 active, 4 recovered)

NSW in particular is going up pretty steadily now.

For other countries of significance:
China = 80,757
Italy = 9172
Iran = 8042
South Korea = 7513
Spain = 1646
France = 1412
Germany = 1281
US = 761
Japan = 530
Netherlands = 382
Switzerland = 374
Sweden = 325
UK = 321
Belgium = 267
Norway = 227
Singapore = 160
Austria = 157
Hong Kong = 118
Malaysia = 117
Denmark = 113
Bahrain = 109

New Zealand has 5 cases

Reason I've posted is really just to create a set of data with a time stamp since what's online elsewhere seems to only be current, there doesn't seem to be a means to look back at least not on the sites I'm aware of. 

It is not my intention to cause unnecessary alarm etc.


----------



## wayneL (11 March 2020)

The situation in Italy 
*****
Jason Van Schoor
From a well respected friend and intensivist/A&E consultant who is currently in northern Italy:
1/ ‘I feel the pressure to give you a quick personal update about what is happening in Italy, and also give some quick direct advice about what you should do.
2/ First, Lumbardy is the most developed region in Italy and it has a extraordinary good healthcare, I have worked in Italy, UK and Aus and don’t make the mistake to think that what is happening is happening in a 3rd world country.
3/ The current situation is difficult to imagine and numbers do not explain things at all. Our hospitals are overwhelmed by Covid-19, they are running 200% capacity
4/ We’ve stopped all routine, all ORs have been converted to ITUs and they are now diverting or not treating all other emergencies like trauma or strokes. There are hundreds of pts with severe resp failure and many of them do not have access to anything above a reservoir mask.
5/ Patients above 65 or younger with comorbidities are not even assessed by ITU, I am not saying not tubed, I’m saying not assessed and no ITU staff attends when they arrest. Staff are working as much as they can but they are starting to get sick and are emotionally overwhelmed.
6/ My friends call me in tears because they see people dying in front of them and they con only offer some oxygen. Ortho and pathologists are being given a leaflet and sent to see patients on NIV. PLEASE STOP, READ THIS AGAIN AND THINK.
7/ We have seen the same pattern in different areas a week apart, and there is no reason that in a few weeks it won’t be the same everywhere, this is the pattern:
8/ 1)A few positive cases, first mild measures, people are told to avoid ED but still hang out in groups, everyone says not to panick
2)Some moderate resp failures and a few severe ones that need tube, but regular access to ED is significantly reduced so everything looks great
9/ 3)Tons of patients with moderate resp failure, that overtime deteriorate to saturate ICUs first, then NIVs, then CPAP hoods, then even O2.
4)Staff gets sick so it gets difficult to cover for shifts, mortality spikes also from all other causes that can’t be treated properly.
10/ Everything about how to treat them is online but the only things that will make a difference are: do not be afraid of massively strict measures to keep people safe,
11/ if governments won’t do this at least keep your family safe, your loved ones with history of cancer or diabetes or any transplant will not be tubed if they need it even if they are young. By safe I mean YOU do not attend them and YOU decide who does and YOU teach them how to.
12/ Another typical attitude is read and listen to people saying things like this and think “that’s bad dude” and then go out for dinner because you think you’ll be safe.
13/ We have seen it, you won’t be if you don’t take it seriously. I really hope it won’t be as bad as here but prepare
.   [/QUOTE]


----------



## qldfrog (11 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> The situation in Italy
> *****
> Jason Van Schoor
> From a well respected friend and intensivist/A&E consultant who is currently in northern Italy:
> ...



[/QUOTE]
If true,
This is the worst case scenario
Collapse of the health system.explaining the death toll


----------



## basilio (11 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> The situation in Italy
> *****
> Jason Van Schoor
> From a well respected friend and intensivist/A&E consultant who is currently in northern Italy:
> ...



[/QUOTE]
Saw that report and thought xxxxx. But it does reflect what will happen if this gets out of hand. What was worth repeating was
_
2/ First, Lumbardy is the most developed region in Italy and it has a extraordinary good healthcare, I have worked in Italy, UK and Aus and don’t make the mistake to think that what is happening is happening in a 3rd world country._


----------



## moXJO (11 March 2020)

I think that confirms that it's worse then I initially thought. 
 Italy has a 27 day lockdown. The idea is that it should blow through maximum incubation period.
Our idiot government is talking 14 days and trying to reduce it to 7. I don't think we are prepared. 
Our hospital was full yesterday. ER was packed with no precautions. Everyone coughing on everyone.

 Apparently our UV index is helping keep the virus at bay. But winter is coming, so I'd repeat:

Get fit, even if it's daily walks that push your lungs.

Your cupboards should be full. But watching Italy, I'd be prone to start stockpiling enough to last out a month.

Ability to pay bills for a minimum of three months.

Reduce exposure to crowds if you have loved ones with reduced immune systems. 

Keep up the hygiene.

I've been watching Italy as a guide. The virus is already well established in Sydney. A time to be careful not complacent.

For most it's just flu. But it's the 'madness of crowds' that makes me worry.


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> The situation in Italy
> *****
> Jason Van Schoor
> From a well respected friend and intensivist/A&E consultant who is currently in northern Italy:
> ...



[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately Australia isn't China, people wont be locked down, so this is very well the outcome here. As the person says, take it seriously, it is very serious.


----------



## bellenuit (11 March 2020)

*U.S. Coronavirus Cases Surpass 1,000: Full Map*

*https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html
*
In case the above is behind a firewall to you, here is one of the charts. It is showing exponential growth, but this may be due to the fact that testing is way too slow. In other words, many of these that compromise new cases may have had the virus for several weeks and are only being recognised now following testing. But that in itself is not comforting.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (11 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *U.S. Coronavirus Cases Surpass 1,000: Full Map*
> 
> View attachment 101201





> Schools, houses of worship and large gathering places will be shuttered for two weeks in a "containment area" in the city of New Rochelle, in New York's Westchester County. Governor Mario Cuomo said the National Guard troops would help clean surfaces and deliver food in the area, which has a 1.6-kilometre radius around a point near a synagogue



Yesterday's numbers : New Rochelle is at the centre of an outbreak of 108 cases in Westchester County, out of 173 in New York state.

Note calling in the *National Guard * is a NY State action. Feds asleep at wheel?


----------



## cynic (11 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> ...
> NSW = 55 (49 active, 4 recovered)...



Was this a typo, or were you just testing to see who's paying attention?


----------



## UMike (11 March 2020)

cynic said:


> Was this a typo, or were you just testing to see who's paying attention?



LOL.
The other "typo" is America only having 761 case when most of the people that caught it are having come back from the US.


----------



## Joules MM1 (11 March 2020)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...r-of-passing-it-on-weighs-heavy-idUSKBN20X23S

coronavirus-can-be-mild-say-patients


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 March 2020)

cynic said:


> Was this a typo, or were you just testing to see who's paying attention?



A typo in that I omitted the two deaths.

Correct figure for NSW is:
Confirmed infections = 55 of which 49 are active, 4 recovered, 2 deaths.

Original source of the data I've quoted is this site: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


----------



## moXJO (11 March 2020)

Joules MM1 said:


> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...r-of-passing-it-on-weighs-heavy-idUSKBN20X23S
> 
> coronavirus-can-be-mild-say-patients



For the majority of us, it won't do anything.
I think the panic, or inability to treat patients due to numbers is the problem. Just the numbers is probably why the death rate jumps so high. Not enough beds or equipment to treat everyone.

For most of us it won't affect us in a negative way, health wise.

I'm thinking the inconvenience of a crowd panic and any lockdown will be more of a problem.
Not being able to wipe our arses  will possibly be the only memory for most.


----------



## Value Collector (11 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> The situation in Italy
> *****
> Jason Van Schoor
> From a well respected friend and intensivist/A&E consultant who is currently in northern Italy:
> ...



[/QUOTE]

do you personally know the author of that?

Because it kinda sounds like the random emails that circulate round my grandmothers email lists.


----------



## moXJO (11 March 2020)

I've been constantly trying to figure out if this will be that bad.
If you work at a hospital then it will look like the end of the world. But for the tradie, accountant, shelf stacker?
The most you can do is sensibly prepare. 

I suppose if I trawl through some social media I might get a better picture.


----------



## MrChow (11 March 2020)

We'll see what quarantine does in Italy.

If new cases reduce dramatically within the next 1-2 weeks like Korea and China did, that should give the world more confidence.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (11 March 2020)

> do you personally know the author of that?
> 
> Because it kinda sounds like the random emails that circulate round my grandmothers email lists.



Is he Dutch? (authentic, good but poor English).

Only thing that will be meaningful is we might get realistic reporting. Eventually. The Chinese central control was stifling.


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2020)

do you personally know the author of that?

Because it kinda sounds like the random emails that circulate round my grandmothers email lists.[/QUOTE]

As to the accuracy of the account, who knows, but the response from Italy seems to have gone from concerned to push the 'big red button'.
So either their resources are stretched, or they are expecting them to be so.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> do you personally know the author of that?
> 
> Because it kinda sounds like the random emails that circulate round my grandmothers email lists.




As to the accuracy of the account, who knows, but the response from Italy seems to have gone from concerned to push the 'big red button'.
So either their resources are stretched, or they are expecting them to be so.[/QUOTE]

Better safe than sorry maybe ?

I hope they've tested all the Ferrari engineers, drivers and hangers on who came for the GP. (Gran Prix that is).


----------



## grah33 (11 March 2020)

2 day lock down isn't really a lock down at all. the virus will just move through.   maybe they should have cut off the whole continent.  an island during the 1918 flu  was spared in this manner.


----------



## moXJO (11 March 2020)

Interesting graphic:


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> 2 day lock down isn't really a lock down at all. the virus will just move through.   maybe they should have cut off the whole continent.  an island during the 1918 flu  was spared in this manner.



It would probably already have been here, before China let the cat out of the bag.


----------



## qldfrog (11 March 2020)

Was listening to the aboriginal radio a few minutes ago and had a thought
Our Aboriginal communities are going to be slaughtered: they have a high percentage of diabetes and bad health: smoke, alcohol drug and bad food habits.
Overall if what we read about risk factors is true, the poorer the more at risk, irrespective of the health facilities in place


----------



## satanoperca (11 March 2020)

You could say the law of nature is the strong survive and the weak perish. So has it been since the drawn of time.

Simply. Nothing has changed in 10000 years with exception to people cant face reality.


----------



## moXJO (11 March 2020)

It's all cool apparently it will vanish as quickly as it appeared.


----------



## IFocus (11 March 2020)

This is American but pretty good

"My job is not to scare you out of your wits, it's to scare you into your wits."


----------



## wayneL (11 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> do you personally know the author of that?
> 
> Because it kinda sounds like the random emails that circulate round my grandmothers email lists.




Here is the original tweet, judge for yourself.


----------



## Value Collector (11 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> Here is the original tweet, judge for yourself.





I don’t know the guy who tweeted it? And the author isn’t named from what I can see.

i have no doubt the situation in Italy is serious, but that account just stinks of a random viral email that gets spread around.

maybe it’s a language thing?


----------



## Value Collector (11 March 2020)

An interesting point to note, is that although the virus has spread geographically, there is about 10,500 less infected people today than there was about a month ago when the number of active cases peaked at over 58,000.

We are seeing active cases trend up again as it has spread outside of China, but it it probable that the the active cases will peak again as these new countries precautions begin to take effect and we may see active cases down trending again shortly.


----------



## moXJO (12 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t know the guy who tweeted it? And the author isn’t named from what I can see.
> 
> i have no doubt the situation in Italy is serious, but that account just stinks of a random viral email that gets spread around.
> 
> maybe it’s a language thing?




Article suggests similar:
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/fortune.com/2020/03/10/coronavirus-italy-cases-hospitals/amp/


https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5e68186cc5b60557280d28dd/amp


----------



## basilio (12 March 2020)

*Public profile - Jason Van Schoor | HealthManagement.org*
healthmanagement.org › viewProfile › Jason_Van Schoor
_Jason Van Schoor_. Please log into your account to view faculty contact details. Positions. Clinical Fellow Registrar in Intensive Care Critical Care Unit, University ...

Real doctor. Not a fake.


IFocus said:


> This is American but pretty good
> 
> ................................................................................
> "My job is not to scare you out of your wits, it's to scare you into your wits."
> ...


----------



## basilio (12 March 2020)

I think Victoria is about to make a very big mistake.

* Australian Grand Prix: three F1 team members placed in isolation over coronavirus fears *

One McLaren and two Haas team members tested
Decision to go ahead with race comes under fire
Coronavirus – latest updates
Three Formula One team members have been placed into isolation amid concerns they may have contracted the coronavirus, as the decision to go ahead with the Australian Grand Prix comes under renewed fire. One member from McLaren and two from the Haas teams were evaluated at the circuit’s isolation unit, established by F1, after showing fever symptoms at the track.

The team members have been tested for the virus and placed under self-isolation at their hotels. There will be significant concern if their tests return positive as they have been mixing in the paddock while carrying the virus, potentially seriously escalating the threat of the coronavirus preventing the grand prix taking place.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...rs-placed-in-isolation-over-coronavirus-fears


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2020)

basilio said:


> *Public profile - Jason Van Schoor | HealthManagement.org*
> healthmanagement.org › viewProfile › Jason_Van Schoor
> _Jason Van Schoor_. Please log into your account to view faculty contact details. Positions. Clinical Fellow Registrar in Intensive Care Critical Care Unit, University ...
> 
> Real doctor. Not a fake.



Jason Van Schoor isn’t the author of that post, he is the guy that cut and pasted it, the original source isn’t named.

As I said I have no doubt the situation is pretty hectic in Italy, just the wording and layout of the document seems so fake, as I said it might just be language differences.


----------



## basilio (12 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Jason Van Schoor isn’t the author of that post, he is the guy that cut and pasted it, the original source isn’t named.
> 
> As I said I have no doubt the situation is pretty hectic in Italy, just the wording and layout of the document seems so fake, as I said it might just be language differences.




Your right.  It seems as if this is the original source.

*'Overwhelmed' Italian hospitals are running at '200 ... - Daily Mail*
www.dailymail.co.uk › news › article-8095835 › Overwhelmed-Italia...
1 day ago - The medic's comments were published in a Twitter thread by UK-based friend _Jason van_ ..*. Mr van Schoor said he was passing on a message from a ... Dr Massimo Galli, head of infectious disease at Milan's Sacco hospital.
*
Also if you listen to the interview IFocus found there is a very similar commentary about the situation in Milan hospitals.

Dr Galli is reported widely about the Corona Crisis in Italy
*https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/03/italy-elderly-population-coronavirus-risk-covid-19*


----------



## bluekelah (12 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> The situation in Italy
> *****
> Jason Van Schoor
> From a well respected friend and intensivist/A&E consultant who is currently in northern Italy:
> ...



[/QUOTE]
Yup sounds like ground zero in Wuhan just a month ago. Still too many people here think "its just a bad flu" we need to move from reactivity to proactivity.

oh yeah and make sure you wear a mask out , especially if you are in Sydney or Melbs, the virus has started gaining a foothold there and chances of catching it in public are now much higher.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> An interesting point to note, is that although the virus has spread geographically, there is about 10,500 less infected people today than there was about a month ago when the number of active cases peaked at over 58,000.
> 
> We are seeing active cases trend up again as it has spread outside of China, but it it probable that the the active cases will peak again as these new countries precautions begin to take effect and we may see active cases down trending again shortly.



South Korea took it seriously and has essentially beaten the disease. Italy, not as much but now is doing its best.

Unfortunately the USA let it run for 6 weeks without testing, due to pandemic section of government being effectively shut down 2 years ago and the subsequent inability to conduct extensive testing. 

Now they have finally developed a test we will see a massive outbreak has already occurred. Look at all the Aussies coming back from the USA testing positive lately.

Also the way their economy works with part time workers and no sick leave, no way of feeding the family if a worker stops because they are a bit sick and the poor health system, I can't see it being controlled easily. 

The  USA will be the problem this month.


----------



## wayneL (12 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Jason Van Schoor isn’t the author of that post, he is the guy that cut and pasted it, the original source isn’t named.
> 
> As I said I have no doubt the situation is pretty hectic in Italy, just the wording and layout of the document seems so fake, as I said it might just be language differences.



Maybe language, maybe the constraints of Twitter, but the details check out, VC.

It's right to be skeptical about these messages, but if something is fair dinkum, it doesn't serve any purpose trying to diminish it.

FWIW


----------



## noirua (12 March 2020)

Tiziana plans to administer TZLS-501 using a proprietary formulation technology. Tests have already shown that the treatment rapidly depletes circulating levels of IL-6 in the blood.  An excessive production of IL-6 is regarded as a key driver of chronic inflammation and is believed to be associated with severe lung damage observed with COVID-19 infections and acute respiratory illness.

Dr. Kunwar Shailubhai, CEO & CSO of Tiziana Life Sciences said; "We are excited to move forward with our clinical development plan to expedite evaluation in patients as soon as possible."

Tiziana, a biotechnology company focused on innovative therapeutics for inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, is expediting development of TZLS-501, with Novimmune, SA, a Swiss biotechnology company with whom it entered into a world-wide license for composition-of-matter in 2017.

LONDON, March 11, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- Nasdaq and AIM listed Tiziana Life Sciences plc (Nasdaq: TLSA) (AIM: TILS) has today announced that its TZLS-501 treatment could be a potential treatment for patients infected with coronavirus (COVID-19) who are at risk of respiratory failure.
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/N...ciences-Developing-TZLS-501-as-a-Pot/81963821


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> South Korea took it seriously and has essentially beaten the disease. Italy, not as much but now is doing its best.
> 
> Unfortunately the USA let it run for 6 weeks without testing, due to pandemic section of government being effectively shut down 2 years ago and the subsequent inability to conduct extensive testing.
> 
> ...




An important sign of good progress is when the daily number of new cases in a country peaks and begins to down trend, shortly after that the daily number of deaths peaks and begins to down trend.

China and South Korea have both passed peak new cases and peak deaths.

Iran daily new cases has peaked.

Italy looks like it may have hit its peak new cases, which is a good sign, but we have to wait and see if the drop in new daily cases becomes a trend.

Usa is still trending up, although total cases is very much lower Than Italy and China.


----------



## basilio (12 March 2020)

As usual The Guardian is carrying a wide range of stories about the spread and consequences of the corona virus. I'll highlight a few that might sum up the current state of affairs.

 1) This virus can be stopped with determination, resources, skill an some brute strength.

* Research finds huge impact of interventions on spread of Covid-19 *
Study suggests number of cases could have been cut by 66% if China had acted a week earlier

The rapid spread of coronavirus around the world could have been substantially curtailed if the broad swath of measures China brought in to control the outbreak were introduced just weeks earlier, researchers say.

Sophisticated modelling of the outbreak suggests that China had 114,325 cases by the end of February 2020, a figure that would have been 67 times higher without interventions such as early detection, isolation of the infected, and travel restrictions.

But if the interventions could have been brought in a week earlier, 66% fewer people would have been infected, the analysis found. The same measures brought in three weeks earlier could have reduced cases by 95%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...impact-of-interventions-on-spread-of-covid-19


----------



## basilio (12 March 2020)

2) Some Asian countries are getting on top of the spread using teh tools outlined. Note that Singapore keeps an absolute eagle eye on infected people but also  pays them to say isolated.

*Mass testing, alerts and big fines: the strategies used in Asia to slow coronavirus *

From Singapore to South Korea, countries across Asia have been mobilising for weeks in an attempt to contain the spread of the coronavirus. Some have had successes, combining mass-testing, technology and social distancing to stem the tide of infections. But uncertainty over the virus’s future course means the region is not out of the woods yet.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...e-strategies-used-in-asia-to-slow-coronavirus


----------



## basilio (12 March 2020)

3)  The super rich are activating their Get out of Jail cards.
 
* Super-rich jet off to disaster bunkers amid coronavirus outbreak *
‘Self isolate’ for some of world’s richest means Covid-19 tests abroad, personal medics and subterranean hideouts

Like hundreds of thousands of people across the world, the super-rich are preparing to self-isolate in the face of an escalation in the coronavirus crisis. But their plans extend far beyond stocking up on hand sanitiser and TV boxsets.

The world’s richest people are chartering private jets to set off for holiday homes or specially prepared disaster bunkers in countries that, so far, appear to have avoided the worst of the Covid-19 outbreak.

Many are understood to be taking personal doctors or nurses on their flights to treat them and their families in the event that they become infected. The wealthy are also besieging doctors in private clinics in Harley Street, London, and across the world, demanding private coronavirus tests.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...g-worried-wealthy-jet-off-to-disaster-bunkers


----------



## basilio (12 March 2020)

4)  The US is way off the mark in terms of even getting to first base to control the epidemic

*Worst still to come in US coronavirus outbreak: Expert*
Concerns mount about US ability to contain the virus as the WHO declares it a pandemic. 
The coronavirus situation in the United States is "going to get worse", Dr Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told politicians in Washington DC on Wednesday, saying the virus is killing people at a higher rate than that of the flu. 

"It is 10 times more lethal than the seasonal flu," Fauci told the House Oversight and Reform Committee. 
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/worst-coronavirus-outbreak-expert-200311161912421.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...p-trump-cdc-new-york-california-a9390581.html 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/11/us-coronavirus-death-toll-states-total-cases


----------



## basilio (12 March 2020)

5) The consequences of the virus overrunning badly at risk communities will be horrific. While this scenario tales place a long way away in the outback (very convenient thank you)  there is no reason to think it  won't happen in places with excellent health systems. 

Check out the second story and note the impact of children in spreading the disease. Then consider all the grandparents who support their children by baby sitting for them.

*Mayhem looms just around the corner': diary from the frontline of the coronavirus health crisis *
Anonymous
We don’t have enough staff or resources, and our remoteness means that help can’t easily be brought in. And who would want to come anyway?

I am a doctor in a small, remote hospital with a predominantly Aboriginal patient load. My colleagues and I know we are facing an unprecedented disaster when Covid-19 takes hold in our area, as it seems it must inevitably do.'

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...he-frontline-of-the-coronavirus-health-crisis

*'Healthcare on brink of collapsing': Doctors share stories from inside the Italy coronavirus quarantine*

I'm just back from Italy and "enjoying" my first day of self-isolation.

Getting a real picture of how bad the situation is, especially in Lombardy and the north, has been really difficult for TV news because movement is so restricted, access to the overwhelmed hospitals impossible and the danger of infection so great.

But it's really important people understand just how bad things are, not least because it is where we may be headed.

So I will continue to write here about conversations, emails or recordings with those who are still under quarantine in Italy.

Some will be Britons who have stayed on, some Italians, some doctors. I start with a voice recording of two Milanese doctors speaking on WhatsApp about the situation at their hospitals.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-11/italy-doctors-coronavirus-covid-19-quarantine-milan-health/


----------



## Tink (12 March 2020)

Thanks @bellenuit

Our trip was booked prior to the travel restrictions.

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/europe/austria


----------



## qldfrog (12 March 2020)

basilio said:


> 5) The consequences of the virus overrunning badly at risk communities will be horrific. While this scenario tales place a long way away in the outback (very convenient thank you)  there is no reason to think it  won't happen in places with excellent health systems.
> 
> Check out the second story and note the impact of children in spreading the disease. Then consider all the grandparents who support their children by baby sitting for them.
> 
> ...



If not on your ignore list, i actually raised that issue yesterday, it will be a slaughter in aboriginal communities with disastrous effects as you pointed on the kids with the loss of the ones holding these somewhat
The aunties and uncles
And even in suburban environment


----------



## basilio (12 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> If not on your ignore list, i actually raised that issue yesterday, it will be a slaughter in aboriginal communities with disastrous effects as you pointed on the kids with the loss of the ones holding these somewhat
> The aunties and uncles
> And even in suburban environment




You did Qfrog and I noticed it. The article expanded on that issue. And while some people might see it as an indigenous problem I agree that this will spread through all cities.

And your not on my ignore list (which in fact doesn't exist) 
Cheers


----------



## grah33 (12 March 2020)

a little while more  and i guess i'll have to stop having my daily cappuccinos

i'm guessing some of you are buying Gold because of this?


----------



## Dona Ferentes (12 March 2020)

basilio said:


> 5) The consequences of the virus overrunning badly at risk communities will be horrific.
> 
> *Mayhem looms just around the corner': diary from the frontline of the coronavirus health crisis *
> 
> *'Healthcare on brink of collapsing': Doctors share stories from inside the Italy coronavirus quarantine*



Comorbidity is a bitch


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2020)

Italy is obviously becoming the 'test bed' for the response to the virus, unfortunately they don't seem to be getting ahead of the curve, it seems to me, the idea that the virus is mainly coming in from outside the Country is seriously flawed. Because it has been going on in China for so long, one would think it is well and truly embedded in most Countries, a lot is going to be learned from this IMO.
The Countries with small numbers of cases, must be trying to work out when is the best time in the process, to put the Country in full lockdown.
So I guess I had better go on the hunt for toilet paper.
On a side note, bought a couple of respirators from Bunnings yesterday, you never know you may require something if you have to go out for supplies in a lockdown situation. Anybody else got any ideas that might help if there is a lockdown, like Italy?
Might be a good time to swap ideas, better to have something and not need it, than need it and not have it.
Just my musings


----------



## qldfrog (12 March 2020)

I am amazed you could find mask in bunnings, none available in the last 3 weeks here


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I am amazed you could find mask in bunnings, none available in the last 3 weeks here



Our local Bunnings is one of the few small ones left, so only the locals use it.


----------



## greggles (12 March 2020)

Tom Hanks and wife Rita Wilson infected with coronavirus while in Australia.


----------



## bluekelah (12 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> a little while more  and i guess i'll have to stop having my daily cappuccinos
> 
> i'm guessing some of you are buying Gold because of this?



Food gold facemasks


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t know the guy who tweeted it? And the author isn’t named from what I can see.
> 
> *i have no doubt the situation in Italy is serious, but that account just stinks of a random viral email that gets spread around*.
> 
> maybe it’s a language thing?



This is starting to add a bit of credibility to the story WayneL posted.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...to-save-younger-patients-20200312-p5499t.html
From the article:
_Amsterdam: Italian doctors say the coronavirus pandemic may mean patients over a certain age could be banned from intensive care units and left to die to give others a better chance of survival.
The advice – distributed by the Italian College of Anaesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care amid a rapidly escalating outbreak in Europe – warns of the difficult moral and ethical decisions facing doctors and nurses as COVID-19 spreads and overwhelms public hospitals_.

_The outbreak has overwhelmed hospitals in the country's hard-hit north, where the majority of cases are. Nearly 6000 people are in hospital and a further 1028 in intensive care_.

_The United Kingdom is expected to shortly announce it will abandon its 'containment' strategy in favour of a 'delay' strategy designed to push the peak of the crisis towards summer when the National Health System can better cope with a deluge of patients_.

This is getting serious, people should be really take care to stay away from closed gatherings and I noticed in Coles a lot of people are using the wipes on the trolley's.
On a lighter note at Woolies while waiting for the wife, I saw a guy walking out the in with a trolley full to the gunnels, a security guard chased and grabbed the trolley the guy just kept walking.
By the way I don't think it will be a case of, if we get quarantined, I think it will be a case of when.
Just my opinion.


----------



## bluekelah (12 March 2020)

*'Hospitals are overwhelmed': Italian doctors describe the struggle of fighting the coronavirus outbreak*

https://www.thelocal.it/20200311/ho...struggle-of-fighting-the-coronavirus-outbreak


----------



## Dona Ferentes (12 March 2020)

I keep hearing, especially from fund manager delusionists, comparisons with the flu.

Get real people.


> According to a review article published in BMC Medicine, the R0 value of the 1918 pandemic was estimated to be between 1.4 and 2.8. But when the swine flu, or H1N1 virus, came back in 2009, its R0 value was between 1.4 and 1.6, report researchers in the journal Science. The existence of vaccines and antiviral drugs made the 2009 outbreak much less deadly




Early estimates for Covid-19 out of China are R0 of at least 2.0.

Also death rate is an order of magnitude higher than for flu. AT LEAST. ...say 2% plus or minus, versus 0.05-0.1%

No vaccine, also.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 March 2020)

Yes, it annoys  me greatly. 
No anti viral treatments either.


----------



## bluekelah (12 March 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, it annoys  me greatly.
> No anti viral treatments either.




Well there are a couple antiviral drugs under testing on humans in china and those biotech firms share price are holding up well in this stock crash.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2020/03/03/2003731982
[Favilavir is the second anti-viral drug after remdesivir that Taiwan has synthesized to combat the novel coronavirus, which originated in the Chinese city of Wuhan.

Remdesivir, which has shown some efficacy in treating the coronavirus, was approved by the Chinese National Medical Products Administration last month. ]

IMHO Remdesivir will definitely help against COVID19 depending on stage of the disease in the patient. Problem is proper testing and then making enough and supplying the world in time.

Considering buying some Gilead stock for a punt.
https://fortune.com/2020/03/10/gilead-coronavirus-treatment-remdesivir-being-used-washington-cdc/


----------



## satanoperca (12 March 2020)

Has anyone on this site ever contracted a deadly virus, spent 3 months in ICU, recovered, only to face the same situation again?

You are all blowing this out of proportion.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (12 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Has anyone on this site ever contracted a deadly virus, spent 3 months in ICU, recovered, only to face the same situation again?
> 
> You are all blowing this out of proportion.



um. No you are distorting and so flawed

3 months. Ha. when was the first case in Australia?
Its a virus. for some its deadly (2%)


----------



## Klogg (12 March 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> um. No you are distorting and so flawed
> 
> 3 months. Ha. when was the first case in Australia?
> Its a virus. for some its deadly (2%)




Elon Musk is right. A huge number of people have not been tested as they're asymptomatic (the denominator in your calculation).
I would hazard a guess the real death rate is much closer to South Korea's numbers (~0.7%), possibly lower.


----------



## satanoperca (12 March 2020)

Really smart arse, read the question, nothing about distorting, or flawed.
Nothing relating to the current virus, again read the question.
Has anyone ever contracted a deadly virus leaving you in ICU for 3months?
Try google Encephalitis and meningitis.

Just another keyboard warrior.


----------



## satanoperca (12 March 2020)

Klogg said:


> Elon Musk is right. A huge number of people have not been tested as they're asymptomatic (the denominator in your calculation).
> I would hazard a guess the real death rate is much closer to South Korea's numbers (~0.7%), possibly lower.



This is exactly what I have been saying all along.
Infection rate is possibly x100 what is reported and death rate is x10, but the mortality rate is <1%. So what, people still eat fatty foods, eat sugar, do not exercise, drink and smoke. We do not strip shelves of tp over these things.


----------



## wayneL (12 March 2020)

Ruh roh!


----------



## bellenuit (12 March 2020)

Klogg said:


> Elon Musk is right. A huge number of people have not been tested as they're asymptomatic (the denominator in your calculation).
> I would hazard a guess the real death rate is much closer to South Korea's numbers (~0.7%), possibly lower.




Countering that, a lot of people who have died without being tested may have had their deaths attributed to other causes, such as influenza, and are not being counted as COVID-19 deaths. I think it will be a while before a reliable ratio can be worked out.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 March 2020)

What the world's most powerful man doesn't know about diseases.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/03/07/flu-trump-grandfather-death-coronavirus/


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Has anyone on this site ever contracted a deadly virus, spent 3 months in ICU, recovered, only to face the same situation again?




Personally no.

I do however have a family member who would otherwise be expected to live a few more years who'd be at extreme high risk should they contract this virus.

I also have no reason to think that China decided to trash their economy for a bit of fun and that everyone from the BBC to the Federal Reserve have just gone along with it fully aware that it's all a big hoax.

When conservative governments are ramping up welfare and CEO's are cutting their own pay, when oil loses half its value, when we see developed countries like Italy struggling to cope and so on well then it all looks rather real yes.


----------



## greggles (13 March 2020)

Latest global coronavirus infection statistics.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 March 2020)

For all the fuss about the Grand Prix, McLaren have pulled out due to a team member testing positive:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/51849163


----------



## PZ99 (13 March 2020)

From what I've heard they've cancelled the entire event.

Not sure about the V8's though.


----------



## qldfrog (13 March 2020)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-france-macron-covid-19-schools-a9398516.html
Took them a long time to wake up.
Why are our uni and school still open?


----------



## dutchie (13 March 2020)

Australia needs to close down TODAY.


----------



## basilio (13 March 2020)

EXCELLENT explainer on how Covid 19 affects people.

* Coronavirus: what happens to people's lungs when they get Covid-19? *
Respiratory physician John Wilson explains the range of Covid-19 impacts, from no symptoms to severe illness featuring pneumonia
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ppens-to-peoples-lungs-when-they-get-covid-19


----------



## Klogg (13 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Countering that, a lot of people who have died without being tested may have had their deaths attributed to other causes, such as influenza, and are not being counted as COVID-19 deaths. I think it will be a while before a reliable ratio can be worked out.




Source?
I've heard the opposite to be true.


----------



## basilio (13 March 2020)

This is scary.  One wonders how well Centrelink follows reality as distinct from protocol

*Sydney family trapped in Wuhan amid coronavirus lockdown sees their Centrelink payments cut*
A Sydney family trapped in China for almost two months due to a coronavirus lockdown says they are struggling to afford food after Centrelink cut off their welfare payments.
Key points:

The family were caught in the Wuhan lockdown after visiting the children's sick grandmother
They weren't able to get a medical certificate that Centrelink requested as they couldn't leave their apartment
Some Centrelink payments can be automatically suspended after 28 days overseas
 
Joanne Bao and her three teenage daughters flew to Wuhan in January to spend time with the girls' sick grandmother during their school holidays.

The city was placed into lockdown soon after and, while the family tried to evacuate on the final flight to Christmas Island, they were turned back at a military checkpoint.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-13/centrelink-cuts-payments-to-family-trapped-in-wuhan/12048808


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2020)

Peter Dutton tests positive for corona virus.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (13 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-france-macron-covid-19-schools-a9398516.html
> Took them a long time to wake up.
> Why are our uni and school still open?



ANU seriously thinking about closing


----------



## basilio (13 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Peter Dutton tests positive for corona virus.



Saw the list of people Peter Dutton has visited recently as part of his official duties. Scary.  A lot of  significant people who could either have infected him or have been infected.

_Earlier on Friday, Mr Morrison met with state and territory leaders to assess Australia's response to the spread of coronavirus.  On Monday, he opened a new Moreton Bay campus for the University of the Sunshine Coast, alongside Education Minister Dan Tehan and former defence chief Angus Houston.

Mr Dutton met with United States Attorney-General William Barr and US President Donald Trump's daughter Ivanka while in Washington DC last week.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-13/peter-dutton-diagnosed-with-coronavirus/12055104_


----------



## Knobby22 (13 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Peter Dutton tests positive for corona virus.



And he was recently at a cabinet meeting.


----------



## DB008 (13 March 2020)

https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/covid-19-coronavirus-infographic-datapack/​


----------



## IFocus (13 March 2020)




----------



## DB008 (13 March 2020)

You can trust China as much as North Korea


----------



## DB008 (13 March 2020)

*Canada's First Coronavirus Vaccine Made In*
*Saskatchewan Is Now In Testing Stages*​
While the world is making monumental changes in the face of the COVID-19 pandemic, a vaccine is being worked on in Canada. And now, a Saskatchewan coronavirus vaccine is officially in the testing stages. Although there is still a long road ahead for human use, officials are working hard as more grant money comes in. 

Back in January 2020, it was announced that the University of Saskatchewan received permission from the Public Health Agency of Canada to start working on a vaccine for COVID-19. 

Since then, researchers have been accepting grants to help the process along. 

While it could take up to a year to complete, CJWW has confirmed with the University of Saskatchewan’s Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization-International Vaccine Centre that the vaccine is now being tested on animals.

As of now, there is no timeline as to when it could be ready for human use. 

Volker Gerdts, CEO and Director of VIDO-InterVac, told CJWW that everything learned from the first SARS outbreak gives the researchers an idea of what the vaccine will have to look like.​

https://www.narcity.com/news/ca/sk/...-in-saskatchewan-is-now-in-the-testing-stages​


----------



## qldfrog (13 March 2020)

As per my previous link a while back about this virus being made of sars plus hiv, let's pray it will react to sars like vaccine as the last vaccine trial for hiv has been cancelled just a few months ago...40y later, that's still a virus wo vaccine and killing millions per year


----------



## basilio (13 March 2020)

Interesting observation in The Guardian from a business journalist.

_After stocks experienced the worst sell of since Black Monday over 3 decades ago, there is a sense that the market has more than priced in the negative impact that coronavirus headwinds could bring. *Let’s not forget that China has recorded the lowest level of infections with just 8 new confirmed cases. This proves that with containment measures such as lock down, strict quarantine and travel restriction it is possible for a country to rebound and relatively quickly. China has sent a specialist team to Italy to help get control over the outbreak. There is light at the end of the coronavirus tunnel, which in Europe and US we are just entering. *


However, the chart is not quite so convincing. Any stronger starts that we have seen this week have not been sustained into the afternoons so there is plenty of caution on trading floors this morning.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ronavirus-oil-fed-central-banks-business-live_


----------



## moXJO (13 March 2020)

Do not believe anything China says. 

http://chinamediaproject.org/2020/02/27/a-fairytale-ending/

Seeing reports they are hiding a lot of new infections


----------



## dutchie (14 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> View attachment 101335



We are an island.
If we close our borders NOW we will minimise the effect of the Chinese virus.


----------



## IFocus (14 March 2020)

dutchie said:


> We are an island.
> If we close our borders NOW we will minimise the effect of the Chinese virus.




Agree, but not sure how long you can do that for seems people inbound from the US are a major problem.

Chart shows acting in front of the curve gives good or better results act later and its a disaster.

Only found out today the virus is from bats.

Also pointed out to me that its the behavior of healthy people that will determine the spread.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (14 March 2020)

dutchie said:


> We are an island.



can't refuse citizens right of return


----------



## Joe Blow (14 March 2020)

Crazy scenes out there in supermarkets today. Shelves stripped bare, people looking confused, some getting a little testy. There is definitely tension in the air. You can see it in people's faces.

I'd recommend avoiding these places unless you absolutely have to go. So many people in such close quarters is a good way to spread this virus.


----------



## grah33 (14 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> hand sanitizer is easy to make at home. Just 2:1 ration of methylated spirits to hand gel. U can get methylated spirits at BigW for $5 a liter.



can i just do 2:1 with water instead, and put it in a little bottle?

i take it meth is same as isopropyl?


----------



## grah33 (14 March 2020)

Joe Blow said:


> Crazy scenes out there in supermarkets today. Shelves stripped bare, people looking confused, some getting a little testy. There is definitely tension in the air. You can see it in people's faces.
> 
> I'd recommend avoiding these places unless you absolutely have to go. So many people in such close quarters is a good way to spread this virus.



good advice.

but, i might just chance it for a cappuccino ... will stop very soon though


----------



## bellenuit (14 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> good advice.
> 
> but, i might just chance it for a cappuccino ... will stop very soon though




Same here. I sit outside now and keep away from others. I usually go for a coffee to also read the daily papers the cafe offers. Shared papers too will become a health hazard. Much as I like the physical paper, it might be worth taking out an online subscription to my favourites, at least for the next few months.


----------



## dutchie (14 March 2020)

Hope this proves to be correct....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-say-vaccine-deadly-coronavirus-roll-yet.html


----------



## dutchie (14 March 2020)

In the meantime.
Absolutely avoid/minimise contact with other people.
Wash your hands properly, as often as required. 
especially after touching public items - money, handrails, buttons, food (packages), chairs, public transport, shopping trolleys/baskets, etc etc etc
Avoid eating with hands. 
Do not put hands on face at all, unless absolutely necessary.
Be over the top with care rather than blase.
Help and take extra care with the elderly.


----------



## Miss Hale (14 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> hand sanitizer is easy to make at home. Just 2:1 ration of methylated spirits to hand gel. U can get methylated spirits at BigW for $5 a liter.




And... metho sold out when I was at the supermarket this morning 

This is getting beyond ridiculous. Every time the govt announces more measures the panic buying starts again.


----------



## Knobby22 (14 March 2020)

dutchie said:


> Hope this proves to be correct....
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-say-vaccine-deadly-coronavirus-roll-yet.html



They've started animal testing a few weeks ago, working on it for over a year. Rushing it now with the help of CSL. Only real hope of getting a vaccine worldwide.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (14 March 2020)

New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has announced all travellers except those from Pacific nations will be required to self-isolate for 14 days upon arrival in the country.

That includes New Zealand citizens and comes into effect from 10.00pm AEDT on Sunday.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (14 March 2020)

South Korea seems to be coping quite well, in that they are getting on top of it


> The linchpin of South Korea’s response has been a testing programme that has screened more people per capita for the virus than any other country by far. By carrying out up to 15,000 tests per day, health officials have been able to screen some 250,000 people – about one in every 200 South Koreans – since January.





> To encourage participation, testing is free for anyone referred by a doctor or displaying symptoms after recent contact with a confirmed case or travel to China. For anyone simply concerned about the risk of infection, the cost is a relatively affordable 160,000 won (US$135). Testing is available at hundreds of clinics, as well as some 50 drive-through testing stations that took their inspiration from past counterterrorism drills and can screen suspected patients in minutes.



https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/heal...oreas-coronavirus-response-opposite-china-and


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> i take it meth is same as isopropyl?




Methylated spirits is just over 95% ethanol with the rest being water and a minor amount of bittering agent to discourage anyone from drinking it.

It needs to be 70%+ concentration to kill viruses on contact.

Isopropyl alcohol is completely different. I suppose it would kill viruses but no idea what strength you'd need so no comment there.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 March 2020)

Miss Hale said:


> metho sold out when I was at the supermarket this morning




Try any hardware shop and it will be somewhere near the paint section.


----------



## grah33 (14 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Same here. I sit outside now and keep away from others. I usually go for a coffee to also read the daily papers the cafe offers. Shared papers too will become a health hazard. Much as I like the physical paper, it might be worth taking out an online subscription to my favourites, at least for the next few months.



the cafe attendants as well though, and whatever they're spreading.  it would be a potential hotspot i suppose, and the toilets.  I REALLY loved my daily caps.  might get a cheap machine


----------



## grah33 (14 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Methylated spirits is just over 95% ethanol with the rest being water and a minor amount of bittering agent to discourage anyone from drinking it.
> 
> It needs to be 70%+ concentration to kill viruses on contact.
> 
> Isopropyl alcohol is completely different. I suppose it would kill viruses but no idea what strength you'd need so no comment there.




just mix it with water then, at that ratio, in a little bottle?  and apply it on my hands ? but does it last for a day, or much longer?


----------



## grah33 (14 March 2020)

got this tip online that it's good to gargle salt and water (we've all heard this).  might experiment with doing that often.  and carry 2 thermos with both that and warm liquid.   just assume i'll get it and i'm working on killing it often a few times a day.  


the usual stuff too - keep the throat moist by sipping warm liquid often.  that way you swallow the virus.  you want to stop it in it's tracks before it travels down the wind pipe and then into the lung.

had a normal cold now for a little over 2 weeks.  just a little coughing now.  but it is lingering on me.  never had a fever though.  probably delayed it by staying out in the cold and doing stuff.


----------



## dutchie (14 March 2020)

dutchie said:


> We are an island.
> If we close our borders NOW we will minimise the effect of the Chinese virus.



The cost, both personally and financially, increases as we delay the shutdown.


----------



## qldfrog (14 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> can i just do 2:1 with water instead, and put it in a little bottle?
> 
> i take it meth is same as isopropyl?



I think soap is added to balance dryness and evaporation.i would bet any shampoo, glycerine, etc would do in anycase, it will kill the virus, after, may not be best hand cream but...


----------



## MrChow (14 March 2020)

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...logical-research-institute-develope-1.8665074

Scientists at Israel’s Institute for Biological Research are expected to announce in the coming days that they have completed development of a vaccine for the new coronavirus COVID-19.


----------



## MrChow (14 March 2020)

dutchie said:


> We are an island.
> If we close our borders NOW we will minimise the effect of the Chinese virus.
> .




Dutton breaching our borders with a foreign virus, should send him to Christmas Island.


----------



## qldfrog (14 March 2020)

MrChow said:


> https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...logical-research-institute-develope-1.8665074
> 
> Scientists at Israel’s Institute for Biological Research are expected to announce in the coming days that they have completed development of a vaccine for the new coronavirus COVID-19.



I am looking forward to it, the market will boom, plenty of shorting opportunities die to irrational exuberance.
I genuinely wish it will but needed tests will take months and months and if there is no proper testing well we might see the damages in a couple of years ...


----------



## Miss Hale (14 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Try any hardware shop and it will be somewhere near the paint section.




Yes, I've bought it there before but I suspect that it will all be gone from there too.


----------



## Klogg (14 March 2020)

MrChow said:


> https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...logical-research-institute-develope-1.8665074
> 
> Scientists at Israel’s Institute for Biological Research are expected to announce in the coming days that they have completed development of a vaccine for the new coronavirus COVID-19.



Creating a vaccine isn't the problem. Going through clinical trials, getting FDA approval and producing en masse is what takes the time.


----------



## orr (14 March 2020)

Miss Hale said:


> Yes, I've bought it there before but I suspect that it will all be gone from there too.




Make your own ; Few days of fementing up a 44 of some sour mash, into the gin rig and whammo...
What doesn't everybody have one?

'40lbs'o yeast and some copper line' 
'everybody knew's they was make'n moonshine'
'CopperHead rowwwww'  boomm ..boomm ..boomm....''

Every thing Dutton has touched has to be disinfected... 
who would have thought.. ?
just mentioning anything  about him makes me feel unclean.


----------



## bluekelah (14 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Methylated spirits is just over 95% ethanol with the rest being water and a minor amount of bittering agent to discourage anyone from drinking it.
> 
> It needs to be 70%+ concentration to kill viruses on contact.
> 
> Isopropyl alcohol is completely different. I suppose it would kill viruses but no idea what strength you'd need so no comment there.




yep I know that. 2:1 will be about 66% alcohol which is pretty good too, just have to rub a bit more and a few seconds longer to get the same effect. Plus 2:1 is easy to measure up in cups. If you wanna go 70% just add half a cup more should do the trick.

Isopropyl alcohol is the same story, 70% is the effective proportion. Manufaturers use Metho in the cheap shelf sanitisers. Hospital grade ones they use isopropyl as it more expensive and leave no residue.


----------



## noirua (14 March 2020)

FORALUMAB and MILCICLIB
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/N...s-Filed-Pursuant-to-Rule-424b5-424b5/81988890


----------



## IFocus (14 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> can i just do 2:1 with water instead, and put it in a little bottle?
> 
> i take it meth is same as isopropyl?




Yes and yes.

The meth 2 to 1 mix with water is whats used in abattoirs I have been told the water is as important as the methylated spirits in the mix.


----------



## noirua (14 March 2020)

Clinical studies conducted by doctors in China, the company noted, suggest that anti-IL-6R MAbs may be used to treat COVID-19 patients who have lung damage and elevated IL-6 levels. Tiziana’s anti-IL-6R MAb binds the membrane-bound and soluble forms of IL-6R, depleting IL-6 levels in the blood. Excessive IL-6 is believed to drive chronic inflammation and is thought to be associated with the severe lung damage observed with COVID-19 infections.
https://www.bioworld.com/articles/433708-covid-19-drug-development-continues-to-surge


----------



## bellenuit (14 March 2020)

Klogg said:


> Creating a vaccine isn't the problem. Going through clinical trials, getting FDA approval and producing en masse is what takes the time.




China may not be the first with a vaccine that works, but I think they will be the first to the market with one that works. They will likely skip the trials that take place with animals etc and test directly with humans, probably on prisoners. If there are no serious side effects, then it will be released to the general population. Whether governments of other countries then chose to use it or not will depend on how serious a problem they have with COVID-19.


----------



## noirua (14 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Yes and yes.
> 
> The meth 2 to 1 mix with water is whats used in abattoirs I have been told the water is as important as the methylated spirits in the mix.



*Methylated spirits* ("*metho*") is a mixture of ethyl *alcohol* (95%) and methyl *alcohol* (5%). The methyl *alcohol* is poisonous and is added to prevent the *methylated spirits* being used as cheap drinking *alcohol*.


----------



## noirua (14 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Yes and yes.
> 
> The meth 2 to 1 mix with water is whats used in abattoirs I have been told the water is as important as the methylated spirits in the mix.



Department of Health, WA
https://healthywa.wa.gov.au/Articles/S_T/Swimming-pools-and-spas


----------



## bluekelah (14 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> China may not be the first with a vaccine that works, but I think they will be the first to the market with one that works. They will likely skip the trials that take place with animals etc and test directly with humans, probably on prisoners. If there are no serious side effects, then it will be released to the general population. Whether governments of other countries then chose to use it or not will depend on how serious a problem they have with COVID-19.



That's where common folk think of vaccines too simply.

There is a testing phase on humans where you have to test on healthy people then get them infected to see if it works. And another phase you have to test on sick people and see if it works. 

both phases take time and even in china its gonna take half year at least. A few months countries in Europe dont have.

thats assuming they can find a vaccine. Its been so many years since SARS and MERS and still no vaccine for either.


----------



## grah33 (15 March 2020)

u think this virus is man-made , or natural?


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> just mix it with water then, at that ratio, in a little bottle? and apply it on my hands ? but does it last for a day, or much longer?




I'm no expert but everything I've read and heard on this says:

Best is just ordinary soap and water. Wash the virus off your hands and down the drain. Normal soap, even the cheapest, is highly effective just be sure to rinse it off thoroughly.

If washing your hands as such is not an option then a solution of 70%+ ethanol will kill the virus. Doesn't matter what the other 30% is and it doesn't matter if the ethanol content is higher than 70%, so long as it's at least that high. Anything lower might kill it eventually but not immediately.

Either is only effective there and then. Once you touch anything contaminated, you need to repeat the above. There is no lasting effect.


----------



## bluekelah (15 March 2020)

Running out of test kits, just like USA test kit debacle. Just get some from China!! https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6141569587001


----------



## Joe90 (15 March 2020)

My sister (retired senior nurse) just sent this link.
https://www.healthyfood.com/advice/coronavirus-how-to-make-your-own-hand-sanitiser


----------



## Tink (15 March 2020)

Coronavirus (COVID-19)
COVID-19
Latest update

13 March 2020:
We now advise all Australians to reconsider your need for overseas travel at this time.

Regardless of your destination, age or health, if your overseas travel is not essential, consider carefully whether now is the right time.

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/news-and-updates/coronavirus-covid-19


----------



## dutchie (15 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> u think this virus is man-made , or natural?



Everything the Chinese do is planned.


----------



## qldfrog (15 March 2020)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...on-essential-locations-over-covid-19/12057378
Basically starting Italian style lock down
Story is government wanted to wait post elections.coming weeks but numbers jumping too quickly


----------



## dutchie (15 March 2020)

We should be moving faster with a lock down.


----------



## IFocus (15 March 2020)

noirua said:


> Department of Health, WA
> https://healthywa.wa.gov.au/Articles/S_T/Swimming-pools-and-spas




Hi Noirua missed the connection are you suggesting chlorine?


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2020)

First time in recent history, not one article on climate change, on the SMH webpage.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (15 March 2020)

Posted in "economic Co-vi" thread. (thanks _Basilio_)  Needs to be understood by all

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/myth-busters


----------



## moXJO (15 March 2020)

I think I have coronavirus. If not, I'm going to try and catch it and do some cheap travelling (after I  get better). Sure some locals may throw stones, or I might get locked down but it's super cheap.


----------



## dutchie (15 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> I think I have coronavirus. If not, I'm going to try and catch it and do some cheap travelling (after I  get better). Sure some locals may throw stones, or I might get locked down but it's super cheap.



I take it that you have run out of toilet paper.


----------



## bellenuit (15 March 2020)

Tink said:


> Coronavirus (COVID-19)
> COVID-19
> Latest update
> 
> ...




That might be enough for you to get a full refund from your travel insurance, assuming that is what you want. A complete ban rather than an advisory would have been better, but as far as I can recall an official travel advisory is enough to get a refund.


----------



## IFocus (15 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> I think I have coronavirus. If not, I'm going to try and catch it and do some cheap travelling (after I  get better). Sure some locals may throw stones, or I might get locked down but it's super cheap.




This was my thinking spend the season surfing empty Indonesian breaks..........told the wife (Minister for War) and next thing I am in lock down


----------



## IFocus (15 March 2020)

Tink said:


> Coronavirus (COVID-19)
> COVID-19
> Latest update
> 
> ...




Are you still going Tink?


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 March 2020)

Remember that we all need to wash our hands


----------



## Dona Ferentes (15 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> This was my thinking spend the season surfing empty Indonesian breaks..........told the wife (Minister for War) and next thing I am in lock down




yeah .. she's smart
https://www.9news.com.au/national/c...us-fears/edf053e2-47c4-4d05-954a-2db01cea07be


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2020)

It sounds as though Britain is going the way of herd immunity, as opposed to trying to control the spread, IMO there is a lot of merit in the plan if a vaccine is a long way off.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...g-the-coronavirus-spread-20200315-p54a5h.html
Fortunately Australia and New Zealand, are probably two of the few Countries that may be able to eradicate the virus, by control measures.
Just my opinion.


----------



## MrChow (16 March 2020)

Cute! I have a tabby cat but she doesn't like water.

Everyone should just stay home and look after their pets for a few weeks.


----------



## basilio (16 March 2020)

Excellent overview  of what has happened with the COVID 19 virus to date.  
In particular note the fact that China has  controlled this  virus with its stringent isolation practices.

Also check out the analysis of financial support given in GC and the realisation we will need to do much, much more to protect citizens and industry from going under.

*Health and wealth — where we've gone wrong on coronavirus*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...where-weve-gone-wrong-on-coronavirus/12058254


----------



## Tink (16 March 2020)

With many events being cancelled in Melbourne.

The Grand Prix, Robbie Williams to name a few.

Many are cancelling or postponing.

We have postponed our trip.


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2020)

Early in the thread, it was mentioned that Governments will take the opportunity to trail ideas, that wouldn't be possible during normal times.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/mid...op-spread-of-coronavirus-20200316-p54afn.html
From the article:
_In his address, Netanyahu acknowledged the technology had never been used on civilians. But he said the unprecedented health threat posed by the virus justified its use.

"They are not minor measures. They entail a certain degree of violation of the privacy of those same people, who we will check to see whom they came into contact with while sick and what preceded that. This is an effective tool for locating the virus," Netanyahu said_.


----------



## bluekelah (16 March 2020)

Please watch his channel guys. He explains everything about COVID19 in his videos and what we should do. No nonsense fellow from UK. He is a retired ED nurse educator with PhD. Daily updates and he has info coming in from doctors all over the world


----------



## basilio (16 March 2020)

This is a thorough, excellent analysis of the process of developing, testing and producing a safe effective vaccine for the Covid 19 virus.  It isn't simple. It can and has  gone badly wrong in the past. If it isn't done carefully a bad vaccine could cause immeasurably more harm.

*When will a coronavirus vaccine be ready? *
Human trials will begin in April – but even if they go well, there are many barriers before global immunisation is feasible

Even at their most effective – and draconian – containment strategies have only slowed the spread of the respiratory disease Covid-19. With the World Health Organization finally declaring a pandemic, all eyes have turned to the prospect of a vaccine, because only a vaccine can prevent people from getting sick.

About 35 companies and academic institutions are racing to create such a vaccine, at least four of which already have candidates they have been testing in animals. The first of these – produced by Boston-based biotech firm Moderna – will enter human trials in April.

This unprecedented speed is thanks in large part to early Chinese efforts to sequence the genetic material of Sars-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19. China shared that sequence in early January, allowing research groups around the world to grow the live virus and study how it invades human cells and makes people sick.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ine-be-ready-human-trials-global-immunisation


----------



## IFocus (16 March 2020)

Note Moderna have never got a vaccine  to market

"The question is complicated by the newness of the science at play. The technology that has allowed Moderna to craft an experimental vaccine so fast has not yielded a single immunization that’s made it to market so far"

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/11...s-vaccine-trial-without-usual-animal-testing/


----------



## Knobby22 (16 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Note Moderna have never got a vaccine  to market
> 
> "The question is complicated by the newness of the science at play. The technology that has allowed Moderna to craft an experimental vaccine so fast has not yielded a single immunization that’s made it to market so far"
> 
> https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/11...s-vaccine-trial-without-usual-animal-testing/




Yea, the only real hope is the Uni of Queensland. CSL have got involved with them to help.
https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/2020/01/race-develop-coronavirus-vaccine


----------



## macca (16 March 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, the only real hope is the Uni of Queensland. CSL have got involved with them to help.
> https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/2020/01/race-develop-coronavirus-vaccine




Maybe you can use this as a checklist, I do not know the writer but the sender is a sensible person. It does agree with previous statements that cold weather suits it, maybe we should all move to Darwin for a few months

<<Very important info on Corona Virus. (not a joke)

An Italian doctor who worked at Shenzhen Hospital in China was appointed by the Chinese government to participate in the hive study group of Wuhan or Corona-Virus pneumonia. He wrote a very interesting article, which is summarised below:

- If a person has a runny nose and has phlegm, he is not infected with the Corona virus, because pneumonia gives a dry cough without a runny nose. This is the easiest way to locate it.
On the other hand it is good to know that the Wuhan virus or corona virus is not heat resistant and dies at a temperature of 26 to 27 degrees. Therefore, drink plenty of hot water such as tea and herbs. It's not a cure, but it's good for the body. Drinking hot water is effective for killing all viruses. Try not to drink cold or frozen fluids. Expose yourself to the sun if it's winter.

- The virus is quite large (the cell has a diameter of about 400-500 nm), so any normal mask (not only the mask 3M & N95) can filter it. However, when an infected person sneezes in front of you, it will spread about 3 meters before falling to the ground. That is, it hovers in the air.

- When the virus falls on a metal surface, it will live for at least 12 hours. So remember that if you come into contact with any metal surface, wash your hands thoroughly with soap.

- The virus can remain active in tissues for 6-12 hours. Regular laundry detergent kills the virus. Winter clothes that do not need daily washing should be placed in the sun to kill the virus.

Information about symptoms of pneumonia caused by corona virus:

- First it will infect the throat, then you will feel a dry sore throat that will last 3 to 4 days.

- Then the virus will merge with the nasal fluid, enter the trachea and enter the lungs causing Wuhan's pneumonia. This process will take 5 to 6 days.

- A condition of pneumonia, high fever and breathing difficulties will follow. Nasal congestion is not like normal nasal congestion. You'll feel like you're drowning in the water. It is important to seek medical attention immediately if you have this feeling.

On prevention:
- The most common way to get infected is not to touch things in a public place such as railings, door handles, handles on the bus, etc., so you should often wash your hands. The virus can only live on your hands for 5-10 minutes, but many things can happen in these 5-10 minutes, such as rubbing your eyes, touching your mouth or face, etc.

- It is recommended to gargling with Betadine gargle to eliminate or minimize germs while still in the throat (before moving on to the lungs).
Maybe the new corona virus shows no signs of infection for many days, so how do you know if someone gets infected? The latest information is that the incubation period may be up to 28 days before the symptoms of the crown appear.
By the time a person has a fever/cough and goes to the hospital, the lungs can be 50% in fibrosis and maybe it is too late.
Taiwan's experts give us a simple self-control that we can do every morning:

Take a deep breath and hold your breath for more than 10 seconds. If you do it without coughing, without suffocation or a bad sensation, etc., it is proof that there is no fibrosis in the lungs, a basic indication that there is no infection.
At critical moments, please look at a fresh air environment every morning.

We must all ensure that our mouth and throat are wet, NEVER dry. Drink minimal water every 15 minutes. WHY??? Because even if the virus enters your mouth ... drinking water or other liquids will transport it through the esophagus to the stomach.
There, stomach acids will kill the virus. If you do not drink enough water regularly the virus can enter the trachea and enter the lungs. And that's going to be very dangerous.

PLEASE SHARE THIS WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS!!>>


----------



## basilio (16 March 2020)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...commends-proactive-national-lockdown/12057956


----------



## basilio (16 March 2020)

macca said:


> Maybe you can use this as a checklist, I do not know the writer but the sender is a sensible person. It does agree with previous statements that cold weather suits it, maybe we should all move to Darwin for a few months
> 
> <<Very important info on Corona Virus. (not a joke)
> 
> ...



That is a really interesting list Macca and I agree it "sounds plausible"

Trouble is - they aren't legit.  Just another piece of misinformation perhaps sent with good intent.
Please check this out

*A viral list of dubious coronavirus tips claims to be from Stanford — it isn’t*
The tips are full of misinformation
https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/12/21177262/coronavirus-tip-fake-list-stanford-hoax-covid-19


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2020)

Victoria beefing up police response to ignoring isolation directives.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...ce-get-new-arrest-powers-20200316-p54ao2.html
From the article:
_Ms Neville said the powers allowed Victoria Police to "detain or arrest people who are non-compliant". Those who suspect people in the community of breaching self-isolation orders can call the Police Assistance Line on 131 444.

"My message is we don't want Victoria Police in a position where they’re out there knocking on doors ... arresting people," Ms Neville said. "If we need to, though, the powers exist_."


----------



## bluekelah (17 March 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, the only real hope is the Uni of Queensland. CSL have got involved with them to help.
> https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/2020/01/race-develop-coronavirus-vaccine




Last i heard Uni of Queensland had to shutdown their campus for cleaning due to third case of COVID19... The irony...


----------



## MrChow (17 March 2020)

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/health...slowing-in-italys-worst-hit-region-governor-2

Quarantine strategies seem to be effective when implemented well.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> Last i heard Uni of Queensland had to shutdown their campus for cleaning due to third case of COVID19... The irony...



The unis in general haven't done themselves any favours in all this.

Some exceptions of course but it's not a good look when a university isn't seen as a leader on an issue like this.


----------



## qldfrog (17 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The unis in general haven't done themselves any favours in all this.
> 
> Some exceptions of course but it's not a good look when a university isn't seen as a leader on an issue like this.



They are only interested in O/S students fees aka racket.
My son is at UQ and has tried to minimise presence there but indeed, overall information and decision was lacking:
Most of the relevant info coming from students self manage FB pages with a good week delay before official action.
Now uni closed for a week presumely to allow online only  restart next week..
I just read an article where a Brisbane researcher was saying he had a cure: hiv drug and malaria drug
And was asking for money for test funding
Nearly look like a scam, both medecines already used in China.
We do not need to test existing drugs , known overseas as effective just to give an official aussie stamp of approval.we use them and get the stats from results now.
There is an inability to act in urgency when needed  I'm afraid in the west.
Not running like headless chooks, but running


----------



## cynic (17 March 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...l/news-story/93e7656da0cff4fc4d2c5e51706accb5


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2020)

basilio said:


> That is a really interesting list Macca and I agree it "sounds plausible"
> 
> Trouble is - they aren't legit.  Just another piece of misinformation perhaps sent with good intent.
> Please check this out
> ...



A U.S company commences human testing of vaccine.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/nor...ate-starts-human-testing-20200317-p54as4.html:
From the article:
_Washington: A potential COVID-19 vaccine moved into human testing, a record pace for a virus scientists didn't know existed a few months ago.

The first participant received the test vaccine on Monday. The trial began in the Seattle area, which became the epicentre of the US outbreak, with 42 of the 69 deaths in the nation.

Scientists at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases developed the experimental vaccine in collaboration with biotechnology company Moderna Inc.
This first trial is just an initial step, and an actual vaccine is still a year to 18 months away, Fauci has been careful to clarify.

Phase I trials mark the first time an experimental vaccine gets introduced into the human body, and they are small studies to assess whether the vaccine is safe and whether it evokes an immune response.


It's the larger phase II and phase III trials that generate enough data to show whether a vaccine works and is safe enough to warrant approval by the Food and Drug Administration_.


----------



## Logique (17 March 2020)

Big wrap to IGA, Coles and Woolies for instituting the pensioners/seniors only shopping hour.

I do think they were all a bit slow off the mark with purchase limits, which should have been placed on toilet paper purchases especially, weeks ago


----------



## basilio (17 March 2020)

Overview of the spread of the virus worldwide since January.
The way it is going Europe will overtake China within a week.

*Coronavirus map: how Covid-19 is spreading across the world*
Confirmed cases of Covid-19 have spanned the globe, and now exceed 170,000. Travel bans and closed borders have been put in place in an attempt to curtail the spread
https://www.theguardian.com/world/n...ap-how-covid-19-is-spreading-across-the-world


----------



## MrChow (17 March 2020)

Swine Flu vaccine was available in October after the outbreak started in April and saved the US and Europe from the 2nd wave peaking again in flu season. 

Not sure how they got it done so quick if this will take 12-18 months?


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 March 2020)

MrChow said:


> Swine Flu vaccine was available in October after the outbreak started in April and saved the US and Europe from the 2nd wave peaking again in flu season.
> 
> Not sure how they got it done so quick if this will take 12-18 months?




Just a random thought but swine flu, or pig flu, also occurs in pigs doesn't it?

Does that mean they could have tested the vaccine on pigs and sped things up?

Just a thought, I could be completely wrong.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (17 March 2020)

Logique said:


> Big wrap to IGA, Coles and Woolies for instituting the pensioners/seniors only shopping hour.
> 
> I do think they were all a bit slow off the mark with purchase limits, which should have been placed on toilet paper purchases especially, weeks ago



Coles said they were taking on 5000 extra staff.

My wish (and even these will be spread pretty thinly)
- 1000 to repack shelves
- 2000 to clean and wipe continuously
- 2000 as security.

And Woolies closing 8pm all stores, so they can get stuff on the shelves overnight


----------



## Humid (17 March 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Coles said they were taking on 5000 extra staff.
> 
> My wish (and even these will be spread pretty thinly)
> - 1000 to repack shelves
> ...




All casuals 
No holidays 
No sickies
No penalty rates but jobs are jobs these days,Coles and Woolies must be creaming it


----------



## Dona Ferentes (17 March 2020)

does this look familiar? Log scale would be better
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...w-covid-19-is-spreading-in-australia/12060704


----------



## macca (17 March 2020)

basilio said:


> That is a really interesting list Macca and I agree it "sounds plausible"
> 
> Trouble is - they aren't legit.  Just another piece of misinformation perhaps sent with good intent.
> Please check this out
> ...




Drat...................but I really do think that a bit of positive news from those who have recovered will settle the hysteria down a lot.

Maybe some enterprising journo could interview a few and cream the ratings


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2020)

New Zealand arrests tourists who fail to self isolate.
https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/c...nz-arrests-foreigners-for-not-self-isolating/


----------



## moXJO (17 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> New Zealand arrests tourists who fail to self isolate.
> https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/c...nz-arrests-foreigners-for-not-self-isolating/



Say goodbye to tourism.


----------



## moXJO (17 March 2020)

A lot of chatter that we may be going into lockdown soon.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> A lot of chatter that we may be going into lockdown soon.




My observation is that it's definitely happening, the only question being whether or not it's officially declared.

Travel is becoming increasingly difficult with international borders closed, air services being drastically cut and a requirement for isolation upon arrival. Only reason anyone's going to travel at this point is to get home or to visit someone on their death bed - the idea of recreational or business travel is now completely dead internationally and even domestically is increasingly being shunned.

Workers are increasingly being sent home if not essential to be physically present.

Goods available to purchase are becoming more limited and for most people so is money to purchase anything with. The opening hours of stores are also in some cases reducing.

Most forms of paid entertainment outside the home are now cancelled and it seems virtually certain that what's left will also soon be cancelled. Many unpaid activities are also cancelled.

So it's somewhat of a technicality as to being locked down since the effect is substantially the same regardless. Apart from walking the streets or buying essentials, there's increasingly nothing for anyone to do outside their home anyway.


----------



## Joules MM1 (18 March 2020)




----------



## Smurf1976 (18 March 2020)

For those wanting to understand how any lock down would work, this one that's actually being done in the US is perhaps a reasonable guide given it's a developed Western country and so on:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ace-california-coronavirus-bay-area-explained



> Residents “may leave to provide or receive certain essential services or engage in certain essential activities and work for essential business or government services”.






> The order also allows for outdoor exercise, “provided that the individuals comply with social distancing requirements”.




So basically if you work in something deemed essential then you can go to work. You can go to shops to buy essential items and you can go for a walk. That's about it. 

This is turning into a nightmare really........


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> For those wanting to understand how any lock down would work, this one that's actually being done in the US is perhaps a reasonable guide given it's a developed Western country and so on:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ace-california-coronavirus-bay-area-explained
> 
> ...




It will be a nightmare for a while, but hopefully people will realise how dependent we are  on other countries for some supplies like masks , gown, gloves and food. Noticed how much of our food is imported from either China or NZ via China , and how many of our food businesses are foreign owned ?

Maybe someone in power will give a thought to these things and do something about it.


----------



## Humid (18 March 2020)

I just flew back from Port Hedland and no doubt soon we will find out how essential we are.
Remote mines without a town are 100% fifo with large camps with smorgasbord crib lunches
Good luck with it no going through there at a fast rate
The camp I just left blokes are whining about washing their hands before entering the mess
Serious bogan country
Yes I fit in


----------



## Dona Ferentes (18 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> A lot of chatter that we may be going into lockdown soon.



First the national closures, then the state boundaries? as this is where enforceability is in hands of Police. Will there be a use for the army? Maybe in logistics and supplies.
Many businesses in the service field have been back-testing systems involving working from home.Many ASX listed entities have made announcements about this. Large organisations that have robust IT can achieve remote operations success (though I do ascribe efficiencies to "water cooler" informality). The announcement from SuperLoop SLC yesterday is enlightening, both how they did it but also for gearing up for anticipated demand of their services.

Canada has stopped childcare, except for health worker and essential services personnel. 
Europe is shutting down, just talking to a Czech tradie - he says we are weeks behind what's happening there.


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2020)

Schools apparently are deciding for next week. It's the school holidays in 2 weeks or something I thought. And that seems like a better time to lock down. We have to make it to there without the infection rate going up to much.


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2020)

Woolworths you suck. My son was in there this morning and said shelves were empty. However the local Italian supermarket is constantly stocked. Meat/chicken, fruit and veg, pasta, flour the lot, all day. They have thousands of people pumping through and they keep it fully stocked.

Empty shelves make people panic more. So get your sht together woolies and Coles. This whole thing started with toilet paper. If you can't do the basics something is seriously wrong. I'm starting to wonder if they are doing it on purpose to keep stock turning.

They have had weeks to sort the logistics out by now. I'm seeing others doing it better.


----------



## joeno (18 March 2020)

Tosser Trump doesn't give much confidence with his daily childish rambles about how China is to blame. Threats against China if they do not supplying medicals. Generally being ungrateful duplicitous fools while depending on Chinese help.

I cant remember USA helping when the virus was mainly in Wuhan. Can you guys?

I also remember people here gloating and laughing at China and proudly announcing how they didn't deserve any help. How are we all feeling now?

The US far right regime under Trump - truly a threat to world peace and an embarrassment to human species for what I assume all of history at this point.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2020)

The Prime Minister said "we will have to take these measures for at least 6 months, but it might be less" .


----------



## basilio (18 March 2020)

macca said:


> Drat...................but I really do think that a bit of positive news from those who have recovered will settle the hysteria down a lot.
> 
> Maybe some enterprising journo could interview a few and cream the ratings




Not quite the same thing but The Guardian has created a section called The Good Place on its website.
Curates  what people can do at home under isolation to make it work better. Practical tips.  Constructive news.

There is no doubt we will become a far more online community in the next few months. Trick will be to keep it positive and constructive vs nasty vacuous  BS.

PS Did you know that Fox News has done a 180 and declared COVID 19 is a menace and people have to take isolation and social distancing dead seriously.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/series/the-good-place


*We have a responsibility': Fox News declares coronavirus a crisis in abrupt U-turn *
Hosts encourage viewers to practice social distancing after weeks of downplaying the pandemic as an attack on the president
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/mar/17/fox-news-coronavirus-outbreak-trump


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The Prime Minister said "we will have to take these measures for at least 6 months, but it might be less" .



I suppose no one knows how long it will take for the virus to either infect everyone, or infect enough to cause herd immunisation, 6 months seems like a reasonable time to have a definitive answer.
One would think the Prime Minister, is working on information given to him by medical specialists, his expertise in this subject might not be needed as much as it was in bushfire fighting.
At least the P.M isn't being called racist, for quarantining people anymore, as he was when sending the first group to Christmas Island. Ah the media, what a wonderfull organisation. 
First they jump onboard that it is an over reaction, then they say we aren't locking down soon enough, so many experts are wasted working in the media.
What a waste of time and money, having a chief medical officer running the show, we could save a fortune by letting the media run it.


----------



## Joules MM1 (18 March 2020)

https://twitter.com/i/moments/1239986395923374080

* Myth-busting the coronavirus *
Coronavirus 5 hours ago
As the outbreak of COVID-19 continues and countries and communities go to extreme lengths to mitigate its spread, it's important to distinguish fact from fiction. Here, some common misconceptions are addressed to give you valuable information on the virus.


----------



## Logique (18 March 2020)

Just I little levity:





_https://babylonbee.com/news/americans-sigh-in-relief-as-news-finally-not-all-about-trump
U.S.- The long national nightmare of every single day being dominated by news about Donald Trump has finally come to an end, as the top news story for the past week has been about a pandemic threatening lives and the economy.
“This is such a nice change of pace,” said Dwayne Hughes, an electrician..
..The news coverage of the coronavirus has taken a turn for the worse, though, as constant news reports of Trump’s reaction to coronavirus have begun to spread and could infect all news coverage by the end of the week._


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2020)

Earlier in the thread, we mentioned it could get really scary, if it gets a hold in Africa.
Well it looks as though Africa is well aware of the risks.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/worl...highly-vulnerable/ar-BB11jZVY?ocid=spartandhp


----------



## satanoperca (18 March 2020)

Going to get a lot worse, once into Africa and South America, then it will be unstoppable.


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Going to get a lot worse, once into Africa and South America, then it will be unstoppable.



Absolutely, christ knows what it will morph into, over there.


----------



## macca (18 March 2020)

I think it is time to face the facts that this not something that we can stop anytime soon.

Today I went out to lunch, the restaurant has removed half of its tables so that there is space between each one. In a place that seats 500 there was 10 people instead of the usual 100 for lunch.

This is a medium size club with a number of lounges, bars, games room and restaurants, the new limit of 100 people (including staff) is poorly thought out.

A small club with one main room and 100 people is a lot more risky than a large club with 50 in 4 different rooms,

The ban should be something like, you may have 40% of your pax limit in each separated area of the club/pub

It is pointless sending Australia bankrupt, we should be isolating all people who are aged, chronically ill or in a weakened state of health.

The rest should be allowed to go to work and earn a living, research has shown that many people have no spare cash, living from week to week.

SMEs are the largest employers and most of those cannot possibly afford to pay people with no production or cash flow.

In an effort to flatten the bell curve of infection we suspend things for one month then allow "normal" life to resume.

We can do it soon or we can do it in 3 months after everyone is broke, same result, we eventually get herd immunity like for the flu.


----------



## grah33 (18 March 2020)

u guys certain meth spirits is okay for sanitizing your hands?  some places online think it's bad (dangerous to health), others good. the sanitizer i got only has ethanol in it

and these sanitizer concoctions...  i couldn't be bothered with making a gel. i just want to put water and the disinfectant together.  no time for extra stuff now.  let me know what you think.

advice please...


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> u guys certain meth spirits is okay for sanitizing your hands?  some places online think it's bad (dangerous to health), others good. the sanitizer i got only has ethanol in it
> 
> and these sanitizer concoctions...  i couldn't be bothered with making a gel. i just want to put water and the disinfectant together.  no time for extra stuff now.  let me know what you think.
> 
> advice please...



From WHO


https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3LqdHVbwiOnhqDfFXgi174


----------



## grah33 (18 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> From WHO
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3LqdHVbwiOnhqDfFXgi174




who can be bothered learning about chemistry , and asking the Coles people for hydrogen peroxide. 

could do with something really simple.  but i dk about the meth spirits, even if that says ethanol 96%.  not feeling confident using it


----------



## MrChow (18 March 2020)

The more I look at the data the more convinced I am to back the effect of seasonality.

I don't believe there has ever been more flu deaths in the U.S and Europe between April-September than the following October-March.

In their ordinary flu season (October-March) there is up to a hundreds times multiplier so it's not close.

Then the virus epidemics in 1918, 1957, 1968 all peaked in October-December while 2009 was approaching a new peak in October to only be stopped by a vaccine.

So Coronavirus would have to do something never done before: cause more flu deaths out of flu season than in flu season (without vaccine intervention).

Yet that seems to be the consensus guidence and narrative at the moment.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> u guys certain meth spirits is okay for sanitizing your hands? some places online think it's bad (dangerous to health), others good. the sanitizer i got only has ethanol in it



Methylated spirits is greater than 95% ethanol, a tiny amount of Bitrex or other bittering agent and the rest is water.

Only reason for the water is that ethanol naturally absorbs a set % of water from the air and dilutes itself to 95%. 

To make 100% pure can be done but is costly and it won’t stay at 100% unless kept away from air. 95% is thus far more practical, cheaper and good enough.

All alcohol is of course not good for you but it’s less bad than spreading a virus.

Best option where available though is always soap and water - warm water if possible.


----------



## moXJO (18 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> who can be bothered learning about chemistry , and asking the Coles people for hydrogen peroxide.
> 
> could do with something really simple.  but i dk about the meth spirits, even if that says ethanol 96%.  not feeling confident using it



You can buy hydrogen peroxide out of most chemists. Can use it as a mouthwash at 3% from memory.

Just get rubbing alcohol and use that.


----------



## grah33 (18 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> You can buy hydrogen peroxide out of most chemists. Can use it as a mouthwash at 3% from memory.
> 
> Just get rubbing alcohol and use that.



rubbing alcohol as in isocol (which is isopropy alcohol).  it's getting expensive online though.

might leave the meth spirits for times when i really need sanitizer


----------



## wayneL (19 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> rubbing alcohol as in isocol (which is isopropy alcohol).  it's getting expensive online though.
> 
> might leave the meth spirits for times when i really need sanitizer



Ordinary soap is most effective against viruses, more so than alcohol. Apparently because virus construct themselves using lipids. Soap destroys that structure. (I posted a link to the science somewhere but I can't remember where)


----------



## basilio (19 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> Ordinary soap is most effective against viruses, more so than alcohol. Apparently because virus construct themselves using lipids. Soap destroys that structure. (I posted a link to the science somewhere but I can't remember where)




Your quite right about soap and water being the most effective against the virus. The point about a good sanitiser is that it can be easily used  at stores, shops, into /out of a hospital where its impractical to wash up.
It is easy to make up with alcohol and some glycerine to relieve the drying effects of the alcohol.


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> rubbing alcohol as in isocol (which is isopropy alcohol).  it's getting expensive online though.
> 
> might leave the meth spirits for times when i really need sanitizer



Another article
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...h/amp31265105/coronavirus-diy-hand-sanitizer/


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2020)

Hand washing is the best


----------



## grah33 (19 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> Ordinary soap is most effective against viruses, more so than alcohol. Apparently because virus construct themselves using lipids. Soap destroys that structure. (I posted a link to the science somewhere but I can't remember where)



I prefer using soap as well.  Thing is, we need sanitizer for when we're out and about, and even at home too from time to time (it's helpful).  It's like portable soap.


----------



## grah33 (19 March 2020)

TV guy reckons we get it from touching things.  we shouldn't be touching things if you don't have to.  i'm trying to use the INSIDE of my shirt to e.g.turn off lights, open door knobs etc ...


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> TV guy reckons we get it from touching things.  we shouldn't be touching things if you don't have to.  i'm trying to use the INSIDE of my shirt to e.g.turn off lights, open door knobs etc ...



I've been doing that for years, since I started going to pubs.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 March 2020)

On the subject of touching things, I've always wondered why the doors to enter a public toilet open inward not outward?

The should in my view be designed to be pushed open, eg with your foot, after washing hands rather than having to grab a filthy handle that's been touched by countless others who didn't wash their hands. 

An easy change to make.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> On the subject of touching things, I've always wondered why the doors to enter a public toilet open inward not outward?
> 
> The should in my view be designed to be pushed open, eg with your foot, after washing hands rather than having to grab a filthy handle that's been touched by countless others who didn't wash their hands.
> 
> An easy change to make.




One view on this interesting topic. 

https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/why-do-most-bathroom-doors-open-inwards.html


I remember I heard some time ago that it also had something to do with fires. If a fire starts in a bathroom, you don't want people opening doors into the main building and spreading the fire. If you happen to be in the bathroom at the time, tough luck.


----------



## JJADV (19 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Woolworths you suck. My son was in there this morning and said shelves were empty.




You realise there are laws that prevent the trucks delivering during the day, right? I believe these are now being relaxed so deliveries can happen all day.. Your local Italian place doesn't have these restrictions.. 

Please research before posting..


----------



## moXJO (19 March 2020)

JJADV said:


> You realise there are laws that prevent the trucks delivering during the day, right? I believe these are now being relaxed so deliveries can happen all day.. Your local Italian place doesn't have these restrictions..
> 
> Please research before posting..



They use semi's, it's not a corner store. It's as large as a Coles.
Sorry but woolies had weeks to prep.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> They use semi's, it's not a corner store. It's as large as a Coles.
> Sorry but woolies had weeks to prep.



In some areas at least councils do effectively limit the volume of stock Woolworths can put through any given store. 

Only x number of trucks allowed and only at specific times and it means no additional deliveries basically, they can't ramp up as not allowed.

Doesn't happen everywhere, so no excuse in many places, but in some it's an issue.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 March 2020)

Lockdown within Australia looks to be starting - Tasmania now requires arrivals, that is domestic travelers including residents of Tasmania returning home, to isolate for 14 days:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...remier-announces-border-restrictions/12069764

I expect we'll see the same with other states very soon. NT, WA and SA first would be my guess.


----------



## IFocus (19 March 2020)

https://www.ft.com/content/a26fbf7e-48f8-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441


----------



## IFocus (19 March 2020)

World count

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries


----------



## IFocus (19 March 2020)

Australia is way below the testing rates require for surveillance to determine who is infected and I mean everyone who is infected..

When you know who is infected then you have control over the correct or appropriate actions to take to control further infections.

This has been the consistent actions of those counties than have held their numbers down or regained some semblance of control (Korea) Australia on the other hand seems to be running more on modeling of numbers rather than a concerted effort of getting the real numbers.

I hope it's not a cost issue............hmmm


----------



## IFocus (19 March 2020)

More numbers world wide.

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Australia is way below the testing rates require for surveillance to determine who is infected and I mean everyone who is infected..
> 
> When you know who is infected then you have control over the correct or appropriate actions to take to control further infections.
> 
> ...



Think I've read they can't get the test gear.


----------



## Humid (19 March 2020)

Hopefully marginal seats don't get better treatment.....them coloured maps frighten me


----------



## IFocus (19 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Think I've read they can't get the test gear.




Yes thats whats being said same for US but I wonder how Korea are testing 7 times the rate of the US and similar to here?


----------



## IFocus (19 March 2020)

Ah here we go Korea had a plan....

"Korean officials enacted a key reform, allowing the government to give near-instantaneous approval to testing systems in an emergency. Within weeks of the current outbreak in Wuhan, China, four Korean companies had manufactured tests from a World Health Organization recipe and, as a result, the country quickly had a system that could assess 10,000 people a day."

https://www.propublica.org/article/...-testing-while-the-us-fell-dangerously-behind


----------



## Humid (19 March 2020)

If all this loss of life and financial carnage was caused by a wet market in Wuhan, hopefully they change their ways


----------



## Logique (19 March 2020)

From Bloomberg. Light at the end of the tunnel. 
*
Chinese Vaccine Approved for Human Testing at Virus Epicenter*
_March 18, 2020
Bloomberg News_: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...approved-for-human-testing-at-virus-epicenter
_...The vaccine, co-developed by the Hong Kong-listed company and China’s Academy of Military Medical Sciences, will undergo clinical trials in Wuhan, CanSino Biologics said in a statement to the Hong Kong Stock Exchange on Wednesday..._


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Yes thats whats being said same for US but I wonder how Korea are testing 7 times the rate of the US and similar to here?



They can probably manufacture the test gear, I think the U.S and Aust get most of it from China.
Trump is going to have plenty of ammunition, to make the multi nationals bring manufacturing back to the U.S, when this is over.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/b...-in-propaganda-offensive-20200319-p54blj.html
_Overnight, Trump, drawing on wartime powers, ordered the production of needed medical supplies in the US. Beijing even has views on that: suggesting the global medical supply chains should not be moved from China_.


----------



## macca (19 March 2020)

Perhaps it is all a conspiracy by Big Pharma to sell us Another vaccine ..................

Watch your back and hoard your toilet paper, use it to write a will if necessary but remember which bit is your will


----------



## Humid (19 March 2020)

Might be hard to distinguish you think


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2020)

So, why isn't the corona virus a Leftist conspiracy like climate change ?

Well, maybe it is.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...avirus/video/edfd4dca3f0b8f1a823cdcdf72a4a08d


----------



## bellenuit (19 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> One view on this interesting topic.
> 
> https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/why-do-most-bathroom-doors-open-inwards.html
> 
> ...




One positive about opening inwards is that if you are sitting doing your business and the door comes off it’s catch, you can usually keep it closed by pushing against it with your feet. But if it opens outwards...


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2020)

China is getting back to Business, hitting a milestone today of no new local daily cases.


----------



## macca (19 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> One positive about opening inwards is that if you are sitting doing your business and the door comes off it’s catch, you can usually keep it closed by pushing against it with your feet. But if it opens outwards...




it would depend if at home or in public, say a pub, and the entry door to the Mens is an outie then anyone walking past could be whacked in the face as we exit.

But if a cubicle within the Mens then an innie would mean we could block it with our feet, only danger would be if it was a stretch to reach the door while sitting on the throne.

One could topple from ones throne with unfinished business outstanding


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> China is getting back to Business, hitting a milestone today of no new local daily cases.




As long as they are not telling porkies...

It seems hard to believe that in a country with such a dense population that they stopped it so fast.

Maybe, maybe not...


----------



## macca (19 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> As long as they are not telling porkies...
> 
> It seems hard to believe that in a country with such a dense population that they stopped it so fast.
> 
> Maybe, maybe not...




It will be around forever now that it is out there, like SARS, that still bobs up in places (so I read somewhere)

I think they know they can't stop it so "lets all get back to work and make money" and they live with it like all the other bugs in China.......... SARS, MERS, Swine Fever etc


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> As long as they are not telling porkies...
> 
> It seems hard to believe that in a country with such a dense population that they stopped it so fast.
> 
> Maybe, maybe not...




Once you can stop or slow transmission from person to person, it is only natural that the active cases drop super fast.

I mean in a few weeks everyone that has it today will either be recovered or dead, so it can’t hang around if it isn’t able to move to new hosts.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Once you can stop or slow transmission from person to person, it is only natural that the active cases drop super fast.
> 
> I mean in a few weeks everyone that has it today will either be recovered or dead, so it can’t hang around if it isn’t able to move to new hosts.




Well the problem is that people can infect others without even knowing they've got it, so testing becomes a priority.


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2020)

macca said:


> It will be around forever now that it is out there, like SARS, that still bobs up in places (so I read somewhere)
> 
> I think they know they can't stop it so "lets all get back to work and make money" and they live with it like all the other bugs in China.......... SARS, MERS, Swine Fe





SirRumpole said:


> Well the problem is that people can infect others without even knowing they've got it, so testing becomes a priority.




I don’t think that makes testing a priority, I think it makes social distancing, hand washing, covering your mouth etc etc a priority


----------



## bellenuit (20 March 2020)

With COVID-19 cases still only a small fraction of the population, but among them there is a not insignificant number of high profile people (the latest being Prince Albert of Monaco), I think it not unreasonable to assume that the number of cases is quite substantial in the population in general. The high profile people are likely to have had priority for testing, hence those infected are likely to have been discovered early. But there shouldn't be any reason why they are more susceptible than anyone else, which does not bode well for how many out there that are untested are infected.


----------



## MrChow (20 March 2020)

Read that 99% of Italy deaths had pre-existing conditions.


----------



## noirua (20 March 2020)




----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t think that makes testing a priority, I think it makes social distancing, hand washing, covering your mouth etc etc a priority




Any reason we can't or shouldn't do both ?


----------



## dutchie (20 March 2020)

The Chinese virus.
China lied people died.


----------



## dutchie (20 March 2020)




----------



## qldfrog (20 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Any reason we can't or shouldn't do both ?



testing is a priority as for some jobs,, aka worker in childcare or aged care, schools, a healthy but sick person will infect a disproportionate number of people;
The only places: Singapore/St Korea who had any success were the places with heavy testing campaign.
We are blindfoldingly following the Italian path


----------



## dutchie (20 March 2020)




----------



## Value Collector (20 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Any reason we can't or shouldn't do both ?




Isn’t there are shortage of testing equipment?


----------



## Value Collector (20 March 2020)

dutchie said:


> The Chinese virus.
> China lied people died.




May as well call it the “meat eaters virus”.

HIV Aids, Mad Cow disease, Bird Flu, Swine Flu, Sars, Corona Virus and many more, have all been transferred to humans from eating or farming animals. 

so if you want to label a disease, maybe look at the root cause, and not play the race blame game.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Isn’t there are shortage of testing equipment?




More supplies coming apparently. 

But yes there is a shortage. There should be some more action on making test kits in Australia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-18/coronavirus-test-kit-rationing-virologist-warns/12062146


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2020)

So malaria and hiv medication lessens symptoms?

Dose up the old people and have a "catch coronavirus party" for the young.

Can end the crisis in two months


----------



## MrChow (20 March 2020)

Not quite:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ti-malaria-drug-coronavirus-game-changer.html


----------



## cynic (20 March 2020)

cynic said:


> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...l/news-story/93e7656da0cff4fc4d2c5e51706accb5



One would hope that bureacracy isn't being allowed to stifle the publication of potentially (provided it is correct) lifesaving information.


----------



## noirua (20 March 2020)

Tiziana’s anti-IL-6R mAb binds to both the membrane-bound and soluble forms of IL-6R and rapidly depletes circulating levels of IL-6 in blood. Excessive production of IL-6 is regarded as a key driver of chronic inflammation and is believed to be associated with severe lung damage observed with COVID-19 infections and acute respiratory illness. China’s National Health Commission has recommended the use of anti-IL6-R mAbs for treatment of inflammation and elevated cytokine levels (“cytokine storm”) in COVID-19 patients. A recent study also reported that COVID-19 infection caused clusters of severe respiratory illness like ARDS.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2020)

MrChow said:


> Read that 99% of Italy deaths had pre-existing conditions.



The only problem with that, as I can make out is, we all end up with a condition later in life.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 March 2020)

I don't wish to cause alarm but let's be realistic here.

Just last weekend we were still running sporting events and festivals with large crowds.

We have since seen a 500 person limit on indoor gatherings, now reduced to 100 and with a further restriction of not less than 4m2 per person. All done, tightened and tightened again in the space of a few days.

Tasmania has largely isolated itself from the rest of the country, Australia is closed to all foreign citizens arriving and Queensland is apparently closing its border with the NT.

All done during this past week.

Now there's this: https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...uburb-by-suburb-20200320-p54cba.html#comments

The URL gives you the gist of it. Suburb by suburb lockdowns.

As I said, I don't wish to cause alarm but my suggestion to all is that if you are not suitably prepared for a lockdown then you should spend this weekend doing whatever you need to do in order to be prepared. At the rate things are going, it may well be reality before too much longer.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't wish to cause alarm but let's be realistic here.
> 
> Just last weekend we were still running sporting events and festivals with large crowds.
> 
> ...



I agree 100% smurf and will add,if I may and I am not of a medical background.
IMO the problem Aust has is, we will probably have to do it for longer, because we don't have the cross contamination rates required.
We can shut down next week, for two weeks, then a week later someone gets it and it starts all over again.
Unless there is enough people go through the process of catching it and developing antibodies, all that will happen is the process will start up again, it really is a balancing act when to call for a complete shutdown.
But as you say, it will have to be getting close, Tasmania is a unique situation, an island full of old people who really can't afford to have an outbreak.
They really are doing the best thing, and it would indicate they are trusting on the Federal Government to eradicate it on the mainland, to stop any future outbreak there.
I would be surprised if it wasn't a joint decision, it makes a lot of sense, but is pointless if we don't eradicate it on the mainland.
That can't be done unless it is carried out carefully and at the right time, it really is a time to leave it to the experts to make the call, rather than rallying around senseless media dribble.
This is serious on a lot more levels, than most realise IMO.
Just my opinion


----------



## Dona Ferentes (21 March 2020)

The total number of cases in Italy rose to 47,021 from a previous 41,035, a rise of 14.6 per cent, the Civil Protection Agency said.

In its most complete analysis of the outbreak yet published, the national health institute (ISS) said the average age of those who died was 78.5 years, with the youngest victim aged 31 and the oldest 103. The median age was 80.

Some 41 per cent of all those who died were aged between 80-89, with the 70-79 age group accounting for a further 35 per cent.

Italy has the oldest population in the world after Japan, with some 23 per cent of people aged over age 65. Medical experts say these demographics could explain why the death toll here is so much higher than anywhere else in the world.

The ISS report, based on a survey of 3,200 of the dead, said men accounted for 70.6 per cent of the deaths and women 29.4 per cent. The median age for the women who died was 82 against 79 for men.

By comparison, the median age of those who tested positive for the illness was 63.

A deeper analysis of 481 of the deceased showed that almost 99 per cent of them were suffering from one or more medical condition before catching the virus. Some 48.6 per cent had three or more previous pathologies.

A total 73.8 per cent had had high blood pressure, 34 per cent had diabetes and 30.1 per cent had heart disease.

On being admitted to hospital, 76 per cent had a fever, 73 per cent had breathing difficulties, 40 per cent had a cough and 8 per cent had diarrhea


----------



## qldfrog (21 March 2020)

As for solution they exist
No need to be Einstein
This is the South Korea/China/Singapore successful way
Testing isolating and repeat
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020...untrys-coronavirus-curve/12075048?pfmredir=sm
And it is a solution which was available to scomo 4 weeks ago...
Probably too late now


----------



## qldfrog (21 March 2020)

But as long as Qld can vote in 2 weeks ...
and mandatory....
Fines if you do not go to the slaughter house, too late for postal vote guys...


----------



## basilio (21 March 2020)

Clearest most practical analysis of the options we face to deal with with crisis I have seen.

* The case for shutting down almost everything, and restarting when coronavirus is gone *
John Daley
Here are the three endgames Australia could pursue, and why we should choose the most radical

Nobody likes talking about the COVID-19 endgame, but we need to choose one. The appropriate interventions – public health, government spending, and freedom of movement – all depend on the endgame we choose.

The differences between endgames amount to tens of thousands of avoidable deaths, hundreds of thousands of avoidable hospital admissions, and deep and systemic impacts on Australia’s economy and society.

Many discussions are underestimating the likely political reactions when death counts rise.

They are also underestimating the economic and social consequences of an open-ended epidemic that will have enormous real-world impacts on small and medium businesses, as well as many not-for-profit organisations in every sector of the economy and society. We are not facing up to the social consequences if many close, and credit markets collapse.

We see three possible endgames.

None are attractive, but one is better than the others
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...thing-and-restarting-when-coronavirus-is-gone


----------



## basilio (21 March 2020)

*Coronavirus is devastating Italy, but one town says its testing regime is containing the outbreak*
*https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...cking-the-countrys-coronavirus-curve/12075048*


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2020)

basilio said:


> Clearest most practical analysis of the options we face to deal with with crisis I have seen.
> 
> * The case for shutting down almost everything, and restarting when coronavirus is gone *
> John Daley
> ...




I really can't see any end to this unless and untill an effective vaccine is produced. 

The infection rate may fall in the meantime due t social isolation etc and then people will think it's all over, will start congregating again and the rate will rise once more and we go back a step.

Only a vaccine and a subsequent elimination of cases will result in justified public confidence to get back to business, and that could be months away. Hopefully it's sooner, but these things take time.


----------



## Logique (21 March 2020)

A little more levity, we need it





_https://babylonbee.com/news/leprechauns-giving-out-toilet-paper-this-year
"Ye'll get me pot o' toilet paper -- if ye can catch me, that is!" cackled one leprechaun as he hid near the end of a rainbow. 
A woman named Karen immediately leaped out of a nearby bush and snagged him, demanding the very best, triple-ply toilet paper available and also asking to speak to the manager.._


----------



## Trendnomics (21 March 2020)

My  (from another thread, but has relevance):



Trendnomics said:


> _*I think the media should be held to account... what do you think?*_
> 
> Yes - The media should be held accountable for under-utilising their large/effective platform and underplaying the risk posed to Australia. I'm not seeing the level of corporate or individual action truly needed to stop the rapid exponential spread of the disease, which would ultimately overwhelm the Australian health care system. This may partly be due to the fact that time lapsed exponential growth is fundamentally hard to grasp OR that the economy is more valuable than lives.
> 
> ...


----------



## wayneL (21 March 2020)

So I went to a client today who is a theatre nurse and does spend some time in the intensive care ward.

This woman is as tough as an old boot.

Frankly, she was super alarmed at the exponential trend of infections and ICU admissions and believes we are going to be in Northern Italy in short order.

It's just what she said and just reporting that.


----------



## bluekelah (21 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I really can't see any end to this unless and untill an effective vaccine is produced.
> 
> The infection rate may fall in the meantime due t social isolation etc and then people will think it's all over, will start congregating again and the rate will rise once more and we go back a step.
> 
> Only a vaccine and a subsequent elimination of cases will result in justified public confidence to get back to business, and that could be months away. Hopefully it's sooner, but these things take time.



Vaccines are at least a year out. Life will be different as it use to be for a while. 

I always ask the vaccine hopefuls : SARS from 2002 they been working on drugs and vaccine cures. 17 years later even with MERS there is nothing for coronavirus. Its a bit like HIV, has taken them decades but still no vaccine or cure. Influenza has been with us for centuries hence we now have vaccines. How long do you think a SAR-COV-2 vaccine will take to develop?? Biotech firms can talk all they want about sequencing the genome and making vaccine samples etc... but do you think we will be able to have a successful vaccine in a year? Given these same companies have failed to make vaccines for the original SARS and MERS coronaviruses???


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2020)

bluekelah said:


> How long do you think a SAR-COV-2 vaccine will take to develop??




I've no idea, but considering the scale of the pandemic, no expense will be spared.


----------



## Joules MM1 (21 March 2020)

wash your hands


----------



## qldfrog (21 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I've no idea, but considering the scale of the pandemic, no expense will be spared.



Do you think expenses are spared for HIV vaccine?
However great the progress we make, there are still unbroken problems,
I doubt a vaccine will be ready before a year and will avoid any first release


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I doubt a vaccine will be ready before a year and will avoid any first release



I was listening to a podcast (interview with someone who claimed to be a legit expert in the field of viruses generally, albeit not this specific one) and they said that the big difficulty with developing vaccines is that it takes time to verify effectiveness or otherwise and there's no real way to speed that up.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As I said, I don't wish to cause alarm but my suggestion to all is that if you are not suitably prepared for a lockdown then you should spend this weekend doing whatever you need to do in order to be prepared. At the rate things are going, it may well be reality before too much longer.




According to the media, NT shuts its border to other states from next Tuesday and SA is now seriously considering doing the same. 

If you aren't home then either drop what you're doing and get home or be prepared to spend the next few months wherever you are now.


----------



## dutchie (22 March 2020)




----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Do you think expenses are spared for HIV vaccine?




HIV never caused a global economic shutdown.


----------



## orr (22 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> As for solution they exist
> No need to be Einstein
> This is the South Korea/China/Singapore successful way
> Testing isolating and repeat
> ...




You all won't have to infect yourselves by touching this paper for this, it's Front Page...

Bill Bowtell quoted on  of This weeks 'the Saturday Paper' _ " *They were warned 12 weeks ago* by the WHO(world heath org) and others what was coming........ They diligently did not do anything usefull"_ 
                               ..........................................................................
good luck to all...orr


----------



## basilio (22 March 2020)

Check out this Podcast with Dr Norman Swan. 
We have 1000 confirmed CORVIOD 19 cases in Australia. The real figure is around 10,000
Take home message is direct.

"If we do nothing more now in Australia, by April 7 our intensive care units will be overwhelmed - that's the prediction. We've got 14 days before we turn into Italy" -- Dr Norman Swan Pls read that again. Not to sound alarmist but can everyone share the **** out of this podcast. And make sure to tune in to Norman Swan's podcast for daily updates on Covid19 in Australia: https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/coronacast


----------



## dutchie (22 March 2020)




----------



## qldfrog (22 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> HIV never caused a global economic shutdown.



But there are mega billions to be done if a vaccine is found.so no funding issue...
The problem is a society who has no clue on how their tv car meds computers work ,power  or food supplied live in a fairy tale..and gosh it is...we have it so good 
And they expect magic to happen and sort all issues...
Not that easy....


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Not that easy....




I never said it was.


----------



## Tink (22 March 2020)

*We now advise all Australians: do not travel overseas at this time. This is our highest advice level (level 4 of 4).*

Regardless of your destination, age or health, our advice is do not travel at this time.

As more countries close their borders or introduce travel restrictions, overseas travel is becoming more complex and difficult. You may not be able to return to Australia when you had planned to. Consider whether you have access to health care and support systems if you get sick while overseas. If you decide to return to Australia, do so as soon as possible. Commercial options may become less available.

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/COVID-19-australian-travellers


----------



## moXJO (22 March 2020)




----------



## moXJO (22 March 2020)

Heard that all the vegetable seeds and plants have sold out at Bunnings.


----------



## basilio (22 March 2020)

moXJO said:


>





Horrific. Certainly  a message for extreme isolation. Realy should be seen and understood. I suspect this will be replicated across many places in the next 2 weeks.
Challenging part for Italy is that the number of new cases is stilling climbing rapidly reflecting infections from 1-2 weeks ago.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 March 2020)

Five things to help stop the spread of coronavirus
The World Health Organization is advising people to follow five simple steps to help prevent the spread of COVID-19:






 1. Wash your hands






 2. Cough/sneeze into your elbow






 3. Don't touch your face






 4. Stay more than 1m away from others






 5. Stay home if you feel sick

gg


----------



## IFocus (22 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Heard that all the vegetable seeds and plants have sold out at Bunnings.





Yep


----------



## moXJO (22 March 2020)

basilio said:


> Horrific. Certainly  a message for extreme isolation. Realy should be seen and understood. I suspect this will be replicated across many places in the next 2 weeks.
> Challenging part for Italy is that the number of new cases is stilling climbing rapidly reflecting infections from 1-2 weeks ago.



I think the isolation may have mixed results here due to the public's actual attitudes. 
We are probably worse then Italy.
If you notice, most people wearing masks are of Asian descent. Aussies would walk through a toxic viral cloud before they would wear a mask in fear of looking stupid or like a "pussy".

When I was younger I had workers complaining I was wearing a mask while sweeping up asbestos. This was when the risks were fully known.

We also have a "fcuk you" attitude when it comes to being told what to do. Libs currently being in government will make it worse.

We just need to slow it down enough. Hopefully we can at least do that.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Heard that all the vegetable seeds and plants have sold out at Bunnings.




Dig for Australia ?

Everyone got their allotment ready ?


----------



## macca (22 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> I think the isolation may have mixed results here due to the public's actual attitudes.
> We are probably worse then Italy.
> If you notice, most people wearing masks are of Asian descent. Aussies would walk through a toxic viral cloud before they would wear a mask in fear of looking stupid or like a "pussy".
> 
> ...




She will be right mate 

Personally, I think we are trying to put toothpaste back in the tube.

I subscribe to the flatten the curve theory, minimise unnecessary personal contact, keep our distances, stay home if sick.

The only way is to build up herd immunity but as slowly as possible so we can treat those who are critically ill.

Looking at the Italy figures which show older folk as being at great risk indicates that if in poor health it is a very dangerous disease.

I suspect that Flu deaths will be down this year as the people dying from CV are the same group who die with the flu and unfortunately, many of those will already be dead.

Many of us on this very forum may well fit the dangerous demographic, my wife is a chronic asthmatic with Hypertension, I really do not want her to get it, could be dangerous.

I am older than her but don't have the trigger conditions, like most I have other problems but not the CV targets

Certainly a massive shake up for the world, China just loves to export things don't they, I sincerely wish they had kept this one to themselves


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 March 2020)

So NT, SA and WA have joined Tasmania in closing their border whilst NSW and Vic are now moving to shut all non-essential activities.

Apparently supermarkets, petrol stations etc will remain open in those states but basically everything else will be shut. That's what the media is reporting at least.

The AFL has now suspended the season as such until 31 May.


----------



## sptrawler (22 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Heard that all the vegetable seeds and plants have sold out at Bunnings.



I wonder if the illegal hydroponic growers, have changes from mull to cabbages?


----------



## IFocus (22 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder if the illegal hydroponic growers, have changes from mull to cabbages?






If they do still expect the bikies to control the distribution and sales


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2020)

macca said:


> I suspect that Flu deaths will be down this year as the people dying from CV are the same group who die with the flu and unfortunately, many of those will already be dead.




Flu cases should be down anyway if people follow the precautions and keep away from infections as well as getting their shots.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2020)

Vaccine research accelerated, panic borrowing of library books...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...-funding-university-queensland-cases/12079184


----------



## basilio (22 March 2020)

Excellent analysis on COVID19  and comparison to other flues.
The picture is more  nuanced than some people want to say.

*Coronavirus: How deadly and contagious is this COVID-19 pandemic?*
Coronavirus isn't the first pandemic to sweep the globe in recent years. Epidemics like bird flu, Ebola, SARS and swine flu are still fresh in our memories.
So how does COVID-19, the disease caused by coronavirus, compare? And what sets it apart from the flu seasons we face each winter?
Here's how Dr Norman Swan, host of the ABC's Coronacast, explains it:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-22/covid-19-how-deadly-and-contagious-is-coronavirus/12068106


----------



## cynic (22 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> ...The AFL has now suspended the season as such until 31 May.



Yikes!! Suspended the footy!! 

Things must be really, really, really serious, for such a drastic action to be deemed necessary!!!


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2020)

Nobel prize winner has some hopes for a vaccine.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-22/doubt-over-contracting-coronavirus-covid-19-twice/12075878


----------



## basilio (22 March 2020)

I think we have to get back to realising *this virus has been stopped and can be stopped. *Consider the sliding door stories of Hong Kong and Taiwan and Italy and Europe.

 Coronavirus outbreak 
* Coronavirus: how Asian countries acted while the west dithered *
In Hong Kong and Taiwan, deaths are in single figures. But Europe gambled on a containment strategy
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...a-acted-west-dithered-hong-kong-taiwan-europe


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## SirRumpole (22 March 2020)

So what are the industries likely to do well out of this or in the future ?

All sorts of online activities might be one area, online training courses, online gaming, online shopping, obviously online school and university courses and maybe there could be an open online university or TAFE for people stuck at home who might like to learn something new instead of watching Big Bang Theory all day.

The human race has a great ability to adapt to adversity, and with technology that was not available in the Great Depression we should be able to make the best of a bad situation.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2020)

Lettuce prices rocket (!) as fresh food supplies are depleted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...uying-sees-fresh-produce-price-hikes/12078198

It looks like a war time rationing system might be needed.

Start printing your ration books now.


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## Smurf1976 (23 March 2020)

I see that the Tasmanian state government has now acquired a university student accommodation building, which was originally built as a hotel, for what is stated to be quarantine purposes.

https://www.themercury.com.au/news/...e/news-story/08c75dc55fdbd2716a12f5f02eeca9c6

This building is located on the edge of the Hobart CBD one block from the Royal Hobart Hospital. 

Presumably we'll see similar moves in other states shortly.


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## Smurf1976 (23 March 2020)

Looking at some data for Australia (only) there seems to be something interesting going on:

NSW: 533 infections, 6 deaths, 4 recovered, 523 active. 
Vic: 296 infections, 0 deaths, *70 recovered*, 226 active.
Qld: 221 infections, 0 deaths, 8 recovered, 213 active.
WA: 120 infections, 1 death, 0 recovered, 119 active.
SA: 100 infections, 0 deaths, 3 recovered, 97 active.
Tas: 22 infections, 0 deaths, 3 recovered, 19 active.
ACT: 19 infections, 0 deaths, 0 recovered, 19 active.
NT: 3 infections, 0 deaths, 0 recovered, 3 active.

What is Victoria doing that other states aren't?

The 24% recovery rate in Victoria is in stark contrast to a less than 1% recovery rate in NSW and below 4% in Queensland.

I'll avoid comparing with the other states since a smaller number of cases may skew the results but it's hard to ignore that difference in Vic versus NSW especially.

What are they doing that, it seems, everyone else ought to be doing too?


----------



## Knobby22 (23 March 2020)

Probably a typo. Should be 7.


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## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I see that the Tasmanian state government has now acquired a university student accommodation building, which was originally built as a hotel, for what is stated to be quarantine purposes.
> 
> https://www.themercury.com.au/news/...e/news-story/08c75dc55fdbd2716a12f5f02eeca9c6
> 
> ...



Probably an opportune time for the public, to email their MP if they know of any large commercial building that are not being used in their area.
It might be of no value, but at least the authorities will be aware of its presence.


----------



## Logique (23 March 2020)

cynic said:


> Yikes!! Suspended the footy!!
> Things must be really, really, really serious, for such a drastic action to be deemed necessary!!!



Feel for the AFLW womens comp. Four clubs got to the Prelim finals round, and wham, season over, no premiership flag to be awarded.


----------



## Logique (23 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Lettuce prices rocket (!) as fresh food supplies are depleted.
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...uying-sees-fresh-produce-price-hikes/12078198
> It looks like a war time rationing system might be needed.
> Start printing your ration books now.



The large supermarket chains have _not_ covered themselves in glory during this crisis. Very reactionary, only shutting the gate after the horse had already bolted. _Oh the shelves are bare, we better put out a media release or something, and have purchase limits or something._ Not the fault of the local staff, it goes up the chain to management.

The black market syndicates have done very nicely. Plenty of items following the baby formula along the Daigou trail I'll bet.

Asleep at the wheel early on, but not as egregiously as the NSW Health Minister. The only port in the world where a cruise ship can pull up and offload a vessel full of wheezing passengers? Circular Quay in Sydney. Nice one Minister "Health" Hazzard.


----------



## bellenuit (23 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Probably an opportune time for the public, to email their MP if they know of any large commercial building that are not being used in their area.
> It might be of no value, but at least the authorities will be aware of its presence.




I'll be reminding my MP of this one, but she should already know as it is in her electorate. There is a brand new large hotel in Subiaco WA (was called the Park Regis) that is completed but never opened. It is one with a controversial history. The builder went bankrupt about 2 years ago when it was just a few months from completion. The administrators sealed the building up overnight not giving a damn about all the sub-contractor's tools and equipment that were locked inside, preventing them from making a living elsewhere. The subbies broke down the fence and got their tools out (not just drills and things, but cherry pickers and diggers), while the police thankfully stayed back. It then went through some ownership change with the new owner writing a contract that meant that they were not responsible for the unpaid subbies contracts. It remained idle for months but eventually building resumed and it was finally completed about 4 months ago. When just a few weeks from opening, the hotel manager (Park Regis or whoever is behind them) pulled out of their contract to manage the hotel. Apparently the original contract had a clause allowing them to do so if certain conditions were not met, such as completion time. They probably activated that get out clause as market conditions had changed dramatically since this project was first started quite a few years back (Subiaco Oval has since closed and there are tens of businesses in Subiaco that have closed). So it is sitting there today, fully completed and furnished, but completely empty. It is also a short drive from several major hospitals that are in the Subiaco/Nedlands area,


----------



## rederob (23 March 2020)

Not the right thread, but there isn't really one, so it will do.
Our grandson developed a fever and went with mum to the doctors first thing this morning.  They were referred to the fever clinic, but had to wait until it opened at 10am. 
For whatever reason - not really clear on why - he was not tested but instead referred to "emergency," where they have since been waiting for almost 3 hours.  We were not happy with the referral to emergency as they are waiting there with a lot of other sick people, possibly waiting to be tested for COVID-19.
As a result, we can no longer do the child minding we look forward to several times a week just in case mum or grandson might become asymptomatic carriers.
It's quite farcical that over 5 hours later our grandson and mum are still waiting, having been palmed off by 2 levels of health services.


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## SirRumpole (23 March 2020)

Sorry about your situation robbie, may I suggest this thread for such things.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak-discussion.35174/


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## jbocker (23 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Not the right thread, but there isn't really one, so it will do.
> Our grandson developed a fever and went with mum to the doctors first thing this morning.  They were referred to the fever clinic, but had to wait until it opened at 10am.
> For whatever reason - not really clear on why - he was not tested but instead referred to "emergency," where they have since been waiting for almost 3 hours.  We were not happy with the referral to emergency as they are waiting there with a lot of other sick people, possibly waiting to be tested for COVID-19.
> As a result, we can no longer do the child minding we look forward to several times a week just in case mum or grandson might become asymptomatic carriers.
> It's quite farcical that over 5 hours later our grandson and mum are still waiting, having been palmed off by 2 levels of health services.



Trust all will work out for you and family rederob. I appreciate the angst this time is giving all of us, we too are out of the grandkids contact which was a large part of our weekly life.You current experience is why all need to be so vigilant. 
We are in lockdown. not even shopping beyond once a week and only at our local store (and probably not even then). if we miss out on something then bad luck, eat, do or use something else, till the kids or community can assist. All the best.


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## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I'll be reminding my MP of this one, but she should already know as it is in her electorate. There is a brand new large hotel in Subiaco WA (was called the Park Regis) that is completed but never opened.,




I emailed my local MP, there is an empty Bunnings warehouse near us, give it a high pressure wash out chuck in some open plan walls bingo. It all depends how desperate things become IMO


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## Smurf1976 (23 March 2020)

rederob said:


> For whatever reason - not really clear on why - he was not tested but instead referred to "emergency," where they have since been waiting for almost 3 hours. We were not happy with the referral to emergency as they are waiting there with a lot of other sick people, possibly waiting to be tested for COVID-19.



Sorry to hear of your situation. It's not good but unfortunately seems to be the standard approach. 

My understanding is that there's a lack of tests available, as in there's a lack of the required physical materials, hence they're effectively being rationed out.

Officially there's 1314 infections in Australia but reality is that some are asymptomatic and even of those who do have symptoms most aren't being tested. Those with mild symptoms may not seek testing and even if they do they quite likely won't actually be tested.

The true number of infections is anyone's guess but realistically it would be very much higher than the official figure for those reasons.


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Sorry to hear of your situation. It's not good but unfortunately seems to be the standard approach.
> 
> My understanding is that there's a lack of tests available, as in there's a lack of the required physical materials, hence they're effectively being rationed out.
> 
> ...



From what I have read smurf, as you say the material required to make the test kits isn't produced in Australia, I assume we could have made it years ago, but as with most things they are now produced in Asia.
The other thing that is coming to the fore, is people saying we are doing too little too late, the case may very well prove we are doing too much too early time will tell.
Everyone is an expert untill they can be proven wrong with hindsight, but by then those who rant on, will have moved on to the next issue they are self professed experts on.
Fortunately they don't attract a very big audience, which is fine, because as the media has proven an audience of one is usually sufficient for them.


----------



## Humid (23 March 2020)

Not sure if I’ll feel to confident when I’m in the ambulance entering a green building with a big red hammer on the wall with the words Lowest prices are just the beginning


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## Humid (23 March 2020)

Sausage in a roll 3 times daily


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## bellenuit (23 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Sausage in a roll 3 times daily




Nope. They stopped the sausage sizzle a few weeks back because of Rona.


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## Smurf1976 (23 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The other thing that is coming to the fore, is people saying we are doing too little too late, the case may very well prove we are doing too much too early time will tell.



One thing I think can be said with certainty is that this has thus far proven pretty much everyone wrong.

Look at basically anything, from finance to medical, that was written in a Western context on this even just a month ago and it's a very long way from reality.

Much of the financial discussion, including from the experts, had a 20% decline as the absolute worst case and a general thought that we probably wouldn't see that. This was still being said 2 - 3 weeks ago so the scale of it all has taken most by surprise it seems.


----------



## rederob (23 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Sorry to hear of your situation. It's not good but unfortunately seems to be the standard approach.
> 
> My understanding is that there's a lack of tests available, as in there's a lack of the required physical materials, hence they're effectively being rationed out.
> 
> ...



Thanks all for the kind thoughts.
Grandson's fever has spiked and he's now under observation at hospital.
However, although he displays all the symptoms of COVID-19 they will not test him or his mother as he and his mum are unable to prove they have had contact with a person known to have the virus, or is from a high risk group (recent overseas arrival with COVID-19 travellers aboard).
The same occurred for Senator Bragg before testing positive and spiralling some colleagues and acquaintances into self quarantine.
That's a recipe for disaster from our health system which should have been better prepared.



sptrawler said:


> The other thing that is coming to the fore, is people saying we are doing too little too late, the case may very well prove we are doing too much too early time will tell.



Perhaps you can provide evidence for that comment because it appalls me.
Remember that it was on 31 December last year that China alerted the WHO to several cases of unusual pneumonia in Wuhan, and on 7 January WHO officials announced they had identified this new virus.
WHO alerts all nations immediately, so our health authorities have had over 2 months to plan for all possible contingencies.
Our authorities now acknowledge they do not have enough PPE let alone test kits. 
Our authorities are still saying it's ok to send kids to school.
Maybe you should speak to people that have turned up at hospitals and been turned away, only to be retested positive later, along with those who had initially taken them there.  I think they would laugh at you.


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## SirRumpole (23 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Thanks all for the kind thoughts.
> Grandson's fever has spiked and he's now under observation at hospital.
> However, although he displays all the symptoms of COVID-19 they will not test him or his mother as he and his mum are unable to prove they have had contact with a person known to have the virus, or is from a high risk group (recent overseas arrival with COVID-19 travellers aboard).
> The same occurred for Senator Bragg before testing positive and spiralling some colleagues and acquaintances into self quarantine.
> ...




I agree rob, we need as many test kits as we can get, and test as many people as we can.

We have definitely been caught short with this virus, all we can do is hope they rectify the shortage of test kits very soon and not let it happen again.


----------



## frugal.rock (23 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Thanks all for the kind thoughts.
> Grandson's fever has spiked and he's now under observation at hospital.
> However, although he displays all the symptoms of COVID-19 they will not test him or his mother as he and his mum are unable to prove they have had contact with a person known to have the virus, or is from a high risk group (recent overseas arrival with COVID-19 travellers aboard).
> The same occurred for Senator Bragg before testing positive and spiralling some colleagues and acquaintances into self quarantine.
> ...



I am guessing that he is referring to the financial side of things Rob?

Hope your Grandson and Mum is ok, and hearing about this kind of thing really breaks your heart.

I refused to get private health insurance, in my opinion, it creates a division of service.
Statistics show that the private health insurance take up rates have been reversing as policy prices spike up.... increase the Medicare levy I say, ditch private. It hasn't worked.

F.Rock


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## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

The good thing is they wont have to go far, if they find a screw loose.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Thanks all for the kind thoughts.
> Grandson's fever has spiked and he's now under observation at hospital.
> However, although he displays all the symptoms of COVID-19 they will not test him or his mother as he and his mum are unable to prove they have had contact with a person known to have the virus, or is from a high risk group (recent overseas arrival with COVID-19 travellers aboard).
> The same occurred for Senator Bragg before testing positive and spiralling some colleagues and acquaintances into self quarantine.
> That's a recipe for disaster from our health system which should have been better prepared.



Unfortunately your situation seems par for the course.

The approach to testing is pedantic rather than practical. If someone has all the symptoms then it's rather silly to assume they don't have it and not test. That largely defeats the point of testing.

That said, best wishes with it. I mean that genuinely - we disagree on quite a few things but this situation goes far beyond politics and debate. 



rederob said:


> Perhaps you can provide evidence for that comment because it appalls me.




I'm taking the original comment as being somewhat generic in that we've gone from nothing to what looks like a panic and panics don't usually result in the best response to anything.

Eg is closing Australian state borders really the best approach?

Or would it make more sense to put the containment line somewhere other than the literal state border?

Eg instead of saying someone can drive from Sydney to Broken Hill but can't cross into SA, would it not be better to contain those in the cities to the cities and try and keep it out of rural areas?

Etc. Whether or not the example is right or not, it's probably true that some of what we're doing isn't the best response and we'd be better to stop that and do something else.


----------



## rederob (23 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Unfortunately your situation seems par for the course.
> 
> The approach to testing is pedantic rather than practical. If someone has all the symptoms then it's rather silly to assume they don't have it and not test. That largely defeats the point of testing.
> 
> ...



A close relative thinks that Scomo has done a good job.
So I said Wuhan went into lockdown a few months ago and there's no new cases.
Then I said it took hundreds to die in Italy before they acted.
So despite thousands already dead across the world we still had everything open for business, and warnings to be careful and keep washing our hands.
And then I said you are still sending your kids to school and there is no testing happening at all.
When I asked if they knew if other school kid's parents had recently travelled overseas the penny dropped.
Tomorrow their kids are staying home and wont' be returning to school until the threat is over..

On the topic of border crossings, I agree it's arbitrary.
The problem we have is that we are not in a position to test en masse, so we are having to take these measures.

In summary, we knew what had worked in China and Korea and did not follow their lead.  Many weeks later we still have not followed their lessons of best practice, and our infection rates continue to rise exponentially.  This is not how to run a country unless you want to slowly run it into the ground, along with more dead.


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

Hi Rob, it sounds as though you have been affected in some way by the virus, I certainly hope it turns out well for you.
Unfortunately I still have you on the ignore list, so all I can do is give my best wishes.


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

It appears the States are following the same lead with schools, W.A is keeping schools open, but parents can take their kids out if they wish.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-23/wa-coronavirus-update-schools-to-stay-open/12080400
I guess for a lot of parents, there is very little option, if both parents work and schools and child care facilities are closed it would make it very difficult to stay employed and look after the children.
People like nurses, doctors, sanitation workers, essential service workers probably don't have the option of just not turning up.
Very sad and difficult times.
Eventually schools will be closed one would think and school holidays are fast approaching.


----------



## qldfrog (23 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It appears the States are following the same lead with schools, W.A is keeping schools open, but parents can take their kids out if they wish.
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-23/wa-coronavirus-update-schools-to-stay-open/12080400
> I guess for a lot of parents, there is very little option, if both parents work and schools and child care facilities are closed it would make it very difficult to stay employed and look after the children.
> People like nurses, doctors, sanitation workers, essential service workers probably don't have the option of just not turning up.
> Very sad and difficult times.



Ideally, school should become summer camps reserved for emergency personnel: medical but also could be logistic, police, etc
and everyone avoiding using these if they can.
this is no mystery the highest infected group in NSW..(relatively small sample  so caution )
were women aged 30-39...schools has to be the link


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Ideally, school should become summer camps reserved for emergency personnel: medical but also could be logistic, police, etc
> and everyone avoiding using these if they can.
> this is no mystery the highest infected group in NSW..(relatively small sample  so caution )
> were women aged 30-39...schools has to be the link




What did London do during the war ? Evacuated all the kids to the country. So set up boarding schools where the kids can stay, continue learning and stay away from the rest of us.


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## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

When I picked up the grandkids today, it looked as though half the kids are turning up, in the grade 4 class 19 out of 34 and pre primary 9 out of 19.


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## jbocker (23 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Perhaps you can provide evidence for that comment because it appalls me.



*Y2K *was what came to my mind (it didn't eventuate in places that didn't apply Y2K).

Having said that  this not comparable in magnitude  and I would give a huge vote of thanks if we have proved to have done 'too much too soon'. Sadly I don't think that will prove the case, even if the govt is telling us right, the people have got to acknowledge and follow the rules and again sadly we find that is not the case


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## Humid (23 March 2020)

A new test with results in 15minutes to be released in a week?


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## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

jbocker said:


> *Y2K *was what came to my mind (it didn't eventuate in places that didn't apply Y2K).
> 
> Having said that  this not comparable in magnitude  and I would give a huge vote of thanks if we have proved to have done 'too much too soon'. Sadly I don't think that will prove the case, even if the govt is telling us right, the people have got to acknowledge and follow the rules and again sadly we find that is not the case



So true whether people like it or not, having all the Governments meeting together to develop a plan, people have to follow it otherwise it will be just chaos.
The problem is the media want to make a story out of everything, which just adds to the confusion and misunderstanding.
We either let the Governments run it and sort it, or we let the media run it and sort it, I know which I would prefer.
People are just taking the pizz as usual, and is normal, no one respects authority anymore. 
So it will be difficult to enforce any social isolating, this is going to be a long and tortuous path IMO.


----------



## barney (23 March 2020)

Just saw this online … If its true, it is huge news. I hope it is for real. Anyone know for sure?

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/coro...dollar100-billion/ar-BB11xTTh?ocid=spartanntp

*COVID-19 test could return results in under an hour*

Australian regulators have approved another *rapid diagnostic test* for COVID-19.

As the ABC's national science reporter Michael Slezak explains, it promises to give *results in just 45 minutes,* without requiring the sample to be sent to a specialised lab.

The new test has received *expedited approval by the Therapeutics Goods Administration (TGA)*.

Earlier today, it was revealed the TGA had approved the another rapid test for diagnosing COVID-19, which could produce results in just* 15 minutes*.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 March 2020)

Humid said:


> A new test with results in 15minutes to be released in a week?




https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...9-germany-rand-paul-centrelink-mygov/12079738


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## Humid (23 March 2020)

https://www.kegland.com.au/fermzilla-27l-conical-uni-tank-fermenter-now-with-stainless-handle.html

I'm looking at one of these if we go into serious lock down
Or even if we don't


----------



## basilio (23 March 2020)

For those here whose job or business has collapsed and will need some financial support. Please note this also includes uni students.

* Am I eligible for Centrelink payments? How to apply for the coronavirus supplement *
The government has doubled unemployment benefits to assist people and businesses losing work. Here’s how you can apply

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-how-to-apply-for-the-coronavirus-supplement


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## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

Interesting that passengers on a ship in Fremantle, were met by police and not allowed to get off the ship, other than to travel straight to the airport.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...uise-ships-docking-in-wa-20200320-p54ceq.html

Whereas in Sydney, apparently passengers were allowed to walk freely from the ship and enter Sydney.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...cked-upon-sydney-arrival-20200320-p54cdu.html


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## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...9-germany-rand-paul-centrelink-mygov/12079738



Apparently the test is made by Cepheid a U.S company, I wonder what the supply will be like? Considering the problems they have in the U.S


----------



## frugal.rock (23 March 2020)

rederob said:


> And then I said you are still sending your kids to school and there is no testing happening at all.
> When I asked if they knew if other school kid's parents had recently travelled overseas the penny dropped.
> Tomorrow their kids are staying home and wont' be returning to school until the threat is over...



Have had my kids out of school completely since last Wednesday.... one couldn't get out of bed on the Tuesday... the other one went to sick bay, sore throat and headache, so picked her up.
Didn't send them back after the missus came back from Beijing in the Thursday. 
Duty of care and all that....was going to send them on Friday... just to rattle a few cages... but didn't want a bun fight.

F.Rock


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2020)

Another cruise ship to hit Perth W.A, McGowan says no one to get off.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ith-250-passengers-heading-for-perth/12081684


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## moXJO (24 March 2020)

Drove past centrelink this morning and the line was around the block. Huge mix of people.


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## Logique (24 March 2020)

Humid said:


> https://www.kegland.com.au/fermzilla-27l-conical-uni-tank-fermenter-now-with-stainless-handle.html
> I'm looking at one of these if we go into serious lock down
> Or even if we don't



Looks good but cleaning it out post-brewing may be an issue, through that small opening at the top. Or to take SG readings.
A good old food grade plastic brewing pail, with a snap on lid is so much easier.
But yes home brewing might get a boost in these times, I heard there runs on bottle shops recently


----------



## qldfrog (24 March 2020)

a personal story: Australia is still in denial;
Going for flu shot yesterday at local chemist: relatively upper class northwest Brisbane suburbs
drive, park, 3 of us put on surgical masks (purchased on eBay in January) and here we go;
Obviously the only people around with masks, stared as we were aliens, wonder if we are on facebook now...
waited in chemist in line for 20min, none of the chemist assistants were wearing either mask or gloves, people lining for their prescription coughing, etc...
A big sign saying "avoid touching surface etc" and every single customer touching the counter putting phone down, just having hands on the glass surface...till the next one;
From memory 20,000 people in local population, high level of consultants executives etc so flying in out, traveling, working in hospitals, etc => it is nearly impossible statistically for no infected person visiting that chemist in the last week or so...And this is a relatively lengthy process
line, wait, give prescription to chemist , line again and wait then take prescription and potentially line wait and pay, a COVID19 paradise....
This is absolutely crazy.I contacted the owner privately and her answer is that she follows the state guidelines..and no doubt she does but ...
If they were just wearing masks, at the very least it could maybe trigger a wake up call in the population, and even save their lives and  or some of their patients/community members
Asians are in disbelief with the way westerners are NOT using masks, this is denial


----------



## grah33 (24 March 2020)

i think i'm at risk, considerably.  one here is a nurse, and they're preparing for battle very soon.

U know there was a spike in summer here with the flu.  the media reported it. i also had a strange flu which did tax me a little.  same thing however happened with the 1918 flu - preceding summer had a spike in flu.  maybe many of us already got it in summer


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## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

The authorities must be annoyed, with the complete lack of regard you are talking about frog.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...irus-in-sydney-hospitals-20200323-p54cy3.html
It all boils back to attitude and Australia has plenty of that.

NAB sacks an employee who falsified a positive corona virus test result.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/ban...itive-covid-19-diagnosis-20200323-p54d6u.html
From the article:

Last Tuesday (17 March) we advised that a colleague who worked on the ground floor at 700 Bourke Street had tested positive to COVID-19. We vacated the building for a pandemic clean and our colleagues from 700 Bourke have since been working remotely," Ms Ferrier wrote in the email, seen by _The Sydney Morning Herald_ and _The Age._
"We have since determined the testing information provided by the colleague appears to have been falsified. The colleague subsequently undertook a test which was negative. Reflecting the severity of this matter, the colleague will not be returning to NAB.
"We certainly regret the uncertainty this has caused for our colleagues in 700 Bourke Street, particularly those working closely with the colleague in question. We have spoken to them and offered assistance, given the stress this situation would have caused.


----------



## grah33 (24 March 2020)

i think a good tip is to keep your throat moist. just assume you'll get it, and start sipping warm tea etc. every day. and gargle salt.


----------



## Humid (24 March 2020)

Logique said:


> Looks good but cleaning it out post-brewing may be an issue, through that small opening at the top. Or to take SG readings.
> A good old food grade plastic brewing pail, with a snap on lid is so much easier.
> But yes home brewing might get a boost in these times, I heard there runs on bottle shops recently






Yeah I know what you mean but the decanting is worth it ithink


----------



## grah33 (24 March 2020)

u know those 95 masks don't protect you. or they do at times...  maybe one can just shut their mouth when around people and hold your breath in.  i was doing that today.


----------



## moXJO (24 March 2020)

Hydroxychloroquine is showing promise. A few cases where it has cured symptoms. Getting a bad rap from media because trump talked about it.


----------



## grah33 (24 March 2020)

if the  stock market further crashes (goes down further to gfc levels), how will things be , u think, anyone?


----------



## IFocus (24 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Hydroxychloroquine is showing promise. A few cases where it has cured symptoms. Getting a bad rap from media because trump talked about it.




Trump was late, testing was already under way but he claimed credit, his own medical experts played it down as efficacy still to be proven.

Anodotley supplies started running short for those that normally actually need it.


----------



## satanoperca (24 March 2020)

F---k, doesn't anyone, or is everyone just apathetic to this situation. Australians have no fighting spirit left.

This virus was released, whether intentionally or deliberate to cause chaos on western societies and financial institutions. 

We have been played, by the best players in the world, the Chinese. 

It has not disappeared magically from China, and total lock downs are not going to solve this issue.

A govnuts released it to cause damage, to fight a trade war, while being well aware there are going to be causalities. 

Address the problem, the origin, then build a solution, our govnuts are weak and are playing exactly into the hand of the chinese. Please don't call be racist, look at facts, draw reasonable conclusions, we have all be played by the masters of concur by trade and not force.

The USA have missed this, they will enviably caused more destruction to it's people than this virus.


----------



## grah33 (24 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> F---k, doesn't anyone, or is everyone just apathetic to this situation. Australians have no fighting spirit left.
> 
> This virus was released, whether intentionally or deliberate to cause chaos on western societies and financial institutions.
> 
> ...




you don't seem open to the notion of this being natural.  it's happened before - the 1918 flu.  it happens often throughout history.


----------



## bellenuit (24 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> It has not disappeared magically from China, and total lock downs are not going to solve this issue.




No, it didn't disappear magically from China. It was stopped by using total lockdowns. 

A town in Italy tested everyone in the town and isolated all those who tested positive. There were no more infections in that town following that. This also adds proof to the efficacy of total lockdowns.


----------



## Humid (24 March 2020)

satanoperca said:


> F---k, doesn't anyone, or is everyone just apathetic to this situation. Australians have no fighting spirit left.
> 
> This virus was released, whether intentionally or deliberate to cause chaos on western societies and financial institutions.
> 
> ...




Intentionally or deliberate.....is there a 3rd option?


----------



## satanoperca (24 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> you don't seem open to the notion of this being natural.  it's happened before - the 1918 flu.  it happens often throughout history.



No, please prove me incorrect


----------



## satanoperca (24 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Intentionally or deliberate.....is there a 3rd option?




yes, they f--kd up, so be honest and tell the truth. They did not lock down 70 million people because that had no f---k clue.


----------



## satanoperca (24 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> No, it didn't disappear magically from China. It was stopped by using total lockdowns.
> 
> A town in Italy tested everyone in the town and isolated all those who tested positive. There were no more infections in that town following that. This also adds proof to the efficacy of total lockdowns.




So naive, hope you prove me wrong.

And lets just hypothesis that lock downs eradicate a virus, what do we do next time, which might be in the next 6months, do it again and again and again, until normal humans are willing to kill to survive.

If SARs and now Corona come from China, then locked the boarders to China until they can show, prove, demonstrate that they will not f---k the world.

PS there is not evidence except from China that they prevented the spread of their disease through lockdowns. The chances that of a country of over 1B people that in a matter of weeks they have stopped it.

Use the pub rule and common sense.


----------



## qldfrog (24 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Intentionally or deliberate.....is there a 3rd option?



yes 3rd option:
a **** up escaping from the Wuhan lab, but China paid dearly, I think around USD500 billions so far, 
Nothing as opposed to the west coming cost, mostly due to our arrogance/incompetence/whatever it is which make governments and people not take lessons of history, *even when history is just a month old*...aka Italy vs Australia


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

The MIL is getting stressed about getting books, as the library has closed, looks like I'm going to have to get her a kindle.
That will be a nightmare she hates technology, the second problem is she hasn't got the internet, or an email account.


----------



## orr (24 March 2020)

basilio said:


> For those here whose job or business has collapsed and will need some financial support. Please note this also includes uni students.
> 
> * Am I eligible for Centrelink payments? *




I'm binge watching " _Houso's _" as an instructional... It's a Masterclass in how to behave on welfare...
So if anyones out there and has direct contact to Pauly and the crew? Say Cheers..

And watch out to other readers of the Thread ... The nutbag conspiracists are popping in showing their complete lack of knowledge of science, its evolution and history. Alex & Al Jones Listeners ... If only they'd read widely(unlikely to help; Attention span of knats).. And if only the virus focused on idiots.

good luck all...
And bring on the Universal Basic Income... And a Federal ICAC..


----------



## greggles (24 March 2020)

Do they know for sure how this outbreak originally started in Wuhan? I haven't read anything definitive yet about pinpointing a specific source.

I'm not really into conspiracy theories, but sometimes I can't help wondering if it was released intentionally.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 March 2020)

greggles said:


> Do they know for sure how this outbreak originally started in Wuhan? I haven't read anything definitive yet about pinpointing a specific source.



Only thing I've read which seemed to be based on proper research cleared pangolins as not possibly being the cause. 

Ultimately my expectation is that US and other Western intelligence agencies will work it out if they haven't already. It will never be said publicly but observing the relationship between China and Western governments over the coming years and reading between the lines will reveal the answer in practice one way or the other.


----------



## banco (24 March 2020)

There was an article in Nature setting out why it wasn't man made.


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

Doesn't sound too good in Spain.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ple-dead-in-beds-coronavirus-worsens/12084892


----------



## Dona Ferentes (24 March 2020)

This is the big one

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soc...virus-cases-may-be-silent-carriers-classified

Not 80,000 but 120,000 cases in China (by the end of Feb). Asymptomatics are transmitters, epidemiologists are worried


> A joint study by experts in China, the US, Britain and Hong Kong estimated that mild and asymptomatic cases were the source of infection of almost 80 per cent of documented cases found in Chinese city of Wuhan, the epicentre of the pandemic, before it was locked down on January 23.
> 
> “These undocumented infections often experience mild, limited, or no symptoms and hence go unrecognised, and, depending on their contagiousness and numbers, can expose a far greater portion of the population to the virus than would otherwise occur,” wrote the team from Columbia University, the University of Hong Kong, Imperial College London, Tsinghua University, and the University of California, Davis. China’s decision to not include asymptomatic confirmed cases found after February 7 significantly reduced the number of new infections it reported as President Xi Jinping oversaw the country’s “people’s war” on the coronavirus. The decision to leave asymptomatic patients out of the country’s confirmed tally did not impact on the success of its quarantine efforts because, while not counted, patients without symptoms were still isolated in coronavirus facilities.


----------



## grah33 (24 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> No, it didn't disappear magically from China. It was stopped by using total lockdowns.
> 
> A town in Italy tested everyone in the town and isolated all those who tested positive. There were no more infections in that town following that. This also adds proof to the efficacy of total lockdowns.



what about you Bell.,  do you think this is a man-made weapon?


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

The U.S waiting on supplies of masks and surgical gowns, from China.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...supplies-are-stuck-in-china?srnd=premium-asia


----------



## basilio (24 March 2020)

The graph of COVID 9 cases around the world is ominous.   

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries


----------



## orr (24 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Only thing I've read which seemed to be based on proper research cleared pangolins as not possibly being the cause.
> 
> Ultimately my expectation is that US and other Western intelligence agencies will work it out if they haven't already. It will never be said publicly but observing the relationship between China and Western governments over the coming years and reading between the lines will reveal the answer in practice one way or the other.




Smurf you're better than this....
The virus is RNA . It has  a back catelouge.
It's history can be known.By science  worldwide.
It's resovoirs are known.
It's vectors are known.
It can be traced by Virological evolutionary history.

What are you people thinking??????
or... not thinking.

SAR'S   MER'S  ...   AND now the current situation.. This  has been a known possibility for decades.
AND The population?..Well, has been encouraged to worry about their new kitchen ...'_FFS'.
*Now...* is if you have the capacity, is the time  to *think*._


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

Looks as though they had a bit of rain at Border Village on the W.A border, everyone trying to get back before the lockdown.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-24/wa-border-closes-1/12086484


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 March 2020)

orr said:


> Smurf you're better than this....
> The virus is RNA . It has a back catelouge.




Thing is, I can't personally determine any of that and there are claims and counterclaims being made. Lies are being told that's a given, what I can't determine with certainty is who's telling them and who's not.

Since I am not able to independently verify the truth, I have zero relevant qualifications, experience or even equipment, I am acting on the basis that I cannot be sure of the facts beyond those which are obvious. That there is a viral pandemic which kills a few % of those who catch it.

I note the following points:

1. A virus was identified in Wuhan China with no immediate action being taken, indeed the issue was largely silenced.

2. Subsequently drastic action was taken in Wuhan to contain the virus to that city and to treat victims.

3. During this time, planes carrying people from China continued to land in Australia and many other countries without restriction.

4. Chinese authorities have at various times claimed that the virus orginated from pangolin, bats, a food market or a US soldier. Others claim the virus originated from a laboratory located not far from the food market in Wuhan.

Now I don't have any means of proving what is true and what is not true. If the lights go out then I can sort through the claims and counterclaims and quickly throw out things which are not credible sure. With this though I'm way out of my depth. 

Regardless of which side of the debate one takes, there are inconsistencies in the chain of events. 

I've thus decided to focus on the consequences of it and adopt a wait and see approach to the rest. That said, the consequences are extremely serious no matter how it started.

If natural then how do we stop it happening again?

If man-made then God help us all.....

To that end I will say that my real fear comes from having read quite a bit of history. Mass unemployment + an identified foreign cause is the perfect conditions for radical politics to gain traction and that sort of thing ends shockingly. My biggest fear is that outcome and I don't think it's a zero chance although I'll be extremely happy if I'm wrong.


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2020)

orr said:


> It can be traced by Virological evolutionary history.
> 
> SAR'S   MER'S  ...   AND now the current situation.. This  has been a known possibility for decades.



Orr do you have a link to an official recognition, that COVID-19 has developed through natural process?
It would probably clear everything up for members of the forum, some official info as to the origin would be good.
Just my opinion.


----------



## bellenuit (24 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> what about you Bell.,  do you think this is a man-made weapon?




It is not out of the question, but as I am no expert in the field I have to rely on those that are. I have read two credible sources that says it is natural and not man made and the sources that claim it is man made tend to be those that push many other conspiracy theories.

If it were man made I also think the release would have had to have been accidental. Infecting your own people deliberately, even if they had a working vaccine and cure, would be a ridiculous thing to do. It could get out of control far too easily. Much better to cause an outbreak near a US military base in Iraq or Germany say and just let the outrage and finger pointing be directed at the US.


----------



## IFocus (24 March 2020)

Scientists say

An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> If it were man made I also think the release would have had to have been accidental. Infecting your own people deliberately, even if they had a working vaccine and cure, would be a ridiculous thing to do.



Even more so when they ended up shutting down at a cost of many $ billions to deal with it. Makes no sense whatsoever.

But then allowing planes to keep flying to Australia as the outbreak was unfolding also makes no sense at all if the aim was to prevent the spread of the virus.


----------



## qldfrog (24 March 2020)

My bet very high is on a virus escapee from the Wuhan lab, based on probabilities, a study of the genome by indian university researchers pointing to unique HIV and SARS sequences found in the new virus.releas3d just after the genetic sequence of the virus was released..2 months ago or so
Since, this news has been extinguished, the links removed etc
It is a very simple fact to confirm or prove wrong
Yet now all searches try to focuse on the dars part...originating from bats..and whatever snake pangolin etc
If proven man made, it can lead to war so do not expect to hear about this HIV sequence soon..but i like truth over diplomacy
No, i do not think China released it on purpose, but they will never ever admit to an accident..save face plus liability


----------



## Humid (24 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> My bet very high is on a virus escapee from the Wuhan lab, based on probabilities, a study of the genome by indian university researchers pointing to unique HIV and SARS sequences found in the new virus.releas3d just after the genetic sequence of the virus was released..2 months ago or so
> Since, this news has been extinguished, the links removed etc
> It is a very simple fact to confirm or prove wrong
> Yet now all searches try to focuse on the dars part...originating from bats..and whatever snake pangolin etc
> ...




https://www.zerohedge.com/geopoliti...ing-fears-over-artificially-created-bioweapon


----------



## bellenuit (25 March 2020)

Although it being a man made virus is highly improbable, I believe a question mark should be raised over whether China deliberately wanted to spread the virus to other countries  once it had taken hold in its own country. I'm not sure what the motivation might be other than the hope they themselves would not be singled out if any quarantining or embargoing were to subsequently take place.

Recall their criticism of the US and Australian ban on travellers from China, which undoubtedly resulted in both our figures being a lot less than otherwise. China said at the time that they were just basing their criticism on advice from the WHO, who did say at the time that restricting travel would be counter productive. But it could be an example of the tail wagging the dog. The WHO's (or at least their chief spokesman) was gushing in praise for China's actions and when asked about China keeping it quiet for so long avoided answering and just said we should look to the future. It could possibly be the case that China told him that restricting travel would be counter productive and he just simply assumed that to be the case due to his gushing admiration for what China were doing. But the crazy thing is that allowing unrestricted travel was the exact opposite to the steps China were taking in Wuhan and elsewhere at the time.


----------



## bellenuit (25 March 2020)




----------



## wayneL (25 March 2020)

For now, it doesn't matter to us whether it is a natural virus or syntheticly created, we just have to deal with what *is*

There is going to be a huge disinformation program (as always) that will make it so confusing that it will be impossible for we plebeians to get to the bottom of it. So I'm just not going to sweat it.

However as a point, all my science clients (though admittedly none are virologists or epidemiologists) think it is manufactured... so it's not just conspiracy theorists.

<edit to add> though one is a research geneticist , so there's that.


----------



## MovingAverage (25 March 2020)

If there is any remaining doubt that staying at some can have a major impact on reducing the rate of spread of this virus, this article and the small video graphic in it makes it pretty simple. It's some new research modelling out of Uni of Syd.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-25/coronavirus-covid-19-modelling-stay-home-chart/12084144


----------



## qldfrog (25 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Scientists say
> 
> An analysis of public genome sequence data from SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses found no evidence that the virus was made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered.
> 
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm



Very simple question: is the HIV sequence mentioned in the indian research paper present or not?
You or I can not answer that 
and I doubt this is answered clearly by any of these papers
Anyway as repeated  many times already, the **** is out and it does not matter anymore. BUT:
It will matter when a country will start rattling sabres and accuses China, releasing these sequences publicly with noone able to deny it scientifically.
For the time being, may you all survive against the best tries of your government: do not forget to vote this weekend Queensland, share the pens, the booth ,queue,your hand IDs
The great communal spirit..
I believe at no time have we tried to stop it, a la South Korea
We are slowly tweaking the lockdown levels to ensure every one gets it hoping that our slow down will flatten the curve
I can understand it but the government should have been honest from the start and tell us how many thousands will die
I also believe that ultimately,it will be more costly $ wise than a proper test /track/rigid quarantine options easily available in January
Just not sure Australians would have accepted it: mask wearing, constraints and rules following..we are more Italy than Japan, so with same results ahead
Take care, you or some of your loves will get it


----------



## qldfrog (25 March 2020)

Now for some figures from France
1100 deads in hospitals,
Important: aged care homes deaths are NOT registered, and patients there are not sent to hospital for treatment, the virus is making a carnage among the older  ...
Quote"
_22.300 cas confirmés sur le territoire. Acutellement, 10.176 personnes sont hospitalisées, dont 2516 dans un état grave en réanimation, soit 434 de plus qu'hier. 34% de ces patients en état grave ont moins de 60 ans"_
So out of 2516 in ICU and in a bad state, *34% are less than 60y old*
Obviously the very old are not treated and only hospitalized persons are tested so it is not easy to compare.Italy also officially recognised real infection level is around 10 times detected nu.bers as they also only test hospitalized persons
All the above for more figures and wakeup call for people still believing only older are affected.
Most of our ASF members are at a non insignificant risk


----------



## Logique (25 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> View attachment 101665



Nice one Bellenuit, and they're going back to work in Wuhan. So this thing is combatable


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2020)

Does anyone have Russian statistics?


----------



## qldfrog (25 March 2020)

Logique said:


> Nice one Bellenuit, and they're going back to work in Wuhan. So this thing is combatable



Definitively look at South Korea
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1167376


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2020)

Korean and most other Asians have completely different attitudes.
They will follow instructions. Most westerners will not.


----------



## basilio (25 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Definitively look at South Korea
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1167376




It can be done. It has been done.  Just don't get sucked in by Donald Trump and his mad followers who either decry the problem or want to "get back to business" before we control this epidemic.


----------



## basilio (25 March 2020)

I thought this story on the effect of the  crisis on mental health  was  on song. I chose to copy in the final observation.
Well worth a think.

* We face a pandemic of mental health disorders. Those who do it hardest need our support *
Paul Daley
Ironically, there has never been a time when we need to be – metaphorically – in tighter social embrace

_....I’ve never known a smile at a stranger a safe distance away on the street to go so far as it seems to these days.

Finding snippets of beauty where we can, and acting with kindness – and love – must be part of the answer in these most terrible of times.

The future of civil society depends on it._
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ders-those-who-do-it-hardest-need-our-support


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2020)

I get where satan was coming from.
Personally I think we have turned into a nation of narcissistic soft c0cks who don't have their priorities in order. Life of excess is about to come to a screaming halt. 

God forbid if war ever broke out.


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

A success story from the Italian town of VO, everyone tested, wouldn't it be nice to have some test kits. Actually wouldn't it be nice if we actually made the test kits here?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...cking-the-countrys-coronavirus-curve/12075048

Hopefully this is a wake up call to the Government, to keep some form of medical Laboratories here, even if it has to be a sub department of CSIRO. Maybe we could call it CSL MK2., it's a shame we offshored the serum laboratories.


----------



## IFocus (25 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Very simple question: is the HIV sequence mentioned in the indian research paper present or not?
> You or I can not answer that
> and I doubt this is answered clearly by any of these papers
> Anyway as repeated  many times already, the **** is out and it does not matter anymore. BUT:
> ...




I keep an open mind but haven't seen any research saying its manufactured to be honest if it was then I would expect Trump would release that information immediately rather than call it the China virus.


----------



## IFocus (25 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> I get where satan was coming from.
> Personally I think we have turned into a nation of narcissistic soft c0cks who don't have their priorities in order. Life of excess is about to come to a screaming halt.
> 
> God forbid if war ever broke out.




Its the biggest world wide disruption in peace time, wars have started over far less so fingers crossed.


----------



## rederob (25 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Although it being a man made virus is highly improbable, I believe a question mark should be raised over whether China deliberately wanted to spread the virus to other countries once it had taken hold in its own country.



Quash one conspiracy theory but start another?
First, all 20th and 21st century viral flu pandemics can all be traced back to the so-called Spanish flu, and this 15 year old book gives some insights, aside from noting we were not getting ready for the inevitable next pandemic.
The logic of a nation initiating a killer virus within in own borders so it could later spread it globally is mind numbingly stupid.  To think China is that stupid is even more stupid!


bellenuit said:


> The WHO's (or at least their chief spokesman) was gushing in praise for China's actions and when asked about China keeping it quiet for so long avoided answering and just said we should look to the future.



This is factually false.  China advised WHO in late December that there was an unknown cause of pulmonary deaths and acted quickly to determine what it was, providing WHO more information a few weeks later.  What was clearly not known was its level of contagion as Wuhan's hospital staff including doctors, were infected and some died. 
While there is no doubt that China actively and publicly hid the impending catastrophe from its nation and the rest of the world for many weeks, once they realised what they were up against they did what only China could do *and *manage.  That is lock down, lock in, and lock out people to prevent spread.
Two months later many countries are ambivalent about implementing the totality of China's harsh measures which are proven to have worked - Wuhan lifting many restrictions from April.  Trump wants the USA to be back in business after Easter!  Really?
Australia's biggest failing to date is to allow schools to remain open.  If we are concerned that kids might have nowhere else to go, then offer a safe facility for parents to send their children if they have no alternative.  School teachers should not become COVID-19 crash test dummies.
Every virologist will tell you that children are excellent spreaders of germs and diseases, so to think they are somehow immune and will not contribute to further spreading is the most irresponsible case of political mumbo jumbo interpretation of an issue they have not sought to solve via a safe means, ie. ensuring front-line workers can continue to provide essential services without having to worry about what their kids are up to or, for that matter, what food to put on the table.


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Quash one conspiracy theory but start another?
> First, all 20th and 21st century viral flu pandemics can all be traced back to the so-called Spanish flu, and this 15 year old book gives some insights, aside from noting we were not getting ready for the inevitable next pandemic.
> The logic of a nation initiating a killer virus within in own borders so it could later spread it globally is mind numbingly stupid.  To think China is that stupid is even more stupid!
> This is factually false.  China advised WHO in late December that there was an unknown cause of pulmonary deaths and acted quickly to determine what it was, providing WHO more information a few weeks later.  What was clearly not known was its level of contagion as Wuhan's hospital staff including doctors, were infected and some died.
> ...



I'm sorry but the act of hiding it and during Chinese New year was outright negligence. People from all over the world attended.
It was well know as highly contagious and doctors were silenced. It is effectively costing trillions for what they did. They deserve zero praise after the fact.


----------



## MovingAverage (25 March 2020)

Some in the know predicted this as far back as 2007...front page of a peer reviewed journal publication in a highly regarded academic journal.


----------



## grah33 (25 March 2020)

think walking around shopping centers is bad, because the virus is sitting in the air as we walk around and breath it in?


----------



## bellenuit (25 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> A success story from the Italian town of VO, everyone tested, wouldn't it be nice to have some test kits. Actually wouldn't it be nice if we actually made the test kits here?
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...cking-the-countrys-coronavirus-curve/12075048




Proof of what many are saying, particularly in relation to the US, that without testing we are working blind. Knowing who is infected makes quarantining easier and more effective. Our goal should be to test everyone.


----------



## basilio (25 March 2020)

Someone has twigged that sitting at home with nothing to do except work ones way through a cask of wine is-not- a-good thing..

*Coronavirus outbreak prompts new restrictions on alcohol sales in WA bottle shops*
*https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ohol-sales-from-bottle-shops-limited/12087974*


----------



## Dona Ferentes (25 March 2020)

basilio said:


> Someone has twigged that sitting at home with nothing to do except work ones way through a cask of wine is-not- a-good thing..



Only recently, was listed as an *Essential Service. *(opiate for the masses)


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Proof of what many are saying, particularly in relation to the US, that without testing we are working blind. Knowing who is infected makes quarantining easier and more effective. Our goal should be to test everyone.



Our goal should be, to be in a position to make our own test kits, rather than having to get in a queue with most other countries for them. 
I bet if the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories (CSL), were still a part of CSIRO, we would be pumping out test kits.
I would love to be proven otherwise.


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

basilio said:


> Someone has twigged that sitting at home with nothing to do except work ones way through a cask of wine is-not- a-good thing..
> 
> *Coronavirus outbreak prompts new restrictions on alcohol sales in WA bottle shops*
> *https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ohol-sales-from-bottle-shops-limited/12087974*



Trolley's full of Goon bags, what a sight.
Tune in for Goon of fortune.


----------



## basilio (25 March 2020)

The efforts to tackle the COVID Virus have to be co-operative and international.  
Check out what is happening in US

*Trump privately appeals to Asia and Europe for medical help to fight coronavirus *
Despite president’s rhetoric that the US would not rely on foreign nations for help, the administration has approached European and Asian partners

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-europe-for-medical-help-to-fight-coronavirus


----------



## Humid (25 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Trolley's full of Goon bags, what a sight.
> Tune in for Goon of fortune.




It must be a joke
There’s 15 bottle shops within 5 minutes of my ranch


----------



## Humid (25 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> For now, it doesn't matter to us whether it is a natural virus or syntheticly created, we just have to deal with what *is*
> 
> There is going to be a huge disinformation program (as always) that will make it so confusing that it will be impossible for we plebeians to get to the bottom of it. So I'm just not going to sweat it.
> 
> ...




Have you ever met a plumber with a horse?


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

Well we need to be in lockdown right now, two leading medical experts are saying, Shane Warne and Brendon Fevola.
Why is the P.M listening to the CMO, when he has those two to make the plan, one thing for sure it would be quality spin.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/scott-morrison-shane-warne-leads-criticism-press-conference-204253014.html


----------



## MovingAverage (25 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well we need to be in lockdown right now, two leading medical experts are saying, Shane Warne and Brendon Fevola.
> Why is the P.M listening to the CMO, when he has those two to make the plan, one thing for sure it would be quality spin.
> 
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/scott-morrison-shane-warne-leads-criticism-press-conference-204253014.html



Two B grade washed up boofheads trying to remain relevant


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

MovingAverage said:


> Two B grade washed up boofheads trying to remain relevant



Then in the next article I read this.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-eddie-mcguire-shares-bleak-afl-outlook-014357937.html
From the article:
*Disbelief over AFL players' 'dumb' act amid crisis*
_Leading AFL journo Craig Hutchison has delivered a withering rebuke for two North Melbourne players who threw a party in the face of strict social-distancing measures.

Nick Larkey and Cameron Zurhaar, both 21, were the hosts of a gathering[/a] in Kensington on Sunday night, hours after playing in the Kangaroos' win over St Kilda at Marvel Stadium.

ABC&nbsp;she approached the boys and asked them to stop the party." data-reactid="46" style="margin-bottom: 1em; color: rgb(38, 40, 42); font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Patricia Ky, an anaesthetist at Royal Melbourne Hospital, told the ABC she approached the boys and asked them to stop the party.

“We all work together so if one of us has it, we all have it,” she claims was the response.

"I spoke to them early in the evening and asked them to keep in mind social distancing, they failed to heed that advice and this morning when I came home from work they were still out, wandering in and out of the house_.

So what is it, the P.M is giving mixed messages, or people are just doing what the F*** they like?
I think it is the later myself.


----------



## bellenuit (25 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Quash one conspiracy theory but start another?




Saying something raises a question mark based on some questionable actions is not starting a conspiracy theory, particularly when many legitimate sources have also raised concerns regarding those actions. More below.



> First, all 20th and 21st century viral flu pandemics can all be traced back to the so-called Spanish flu, and this 15 year old book gives some insights, aside from noting we were not getting ready for the inevitable next pandemic.
> 
> *The logic of a nation initiating a killer virus within in own borders so it could later spread it globally is mind numbingly stupid.  To think China is that stupid is even more stupid!*




I have noticed since I first became aware of your presence on these forums that you have a habit of labelling others stupid. If you read my posts on this subject, you would see that my opinion on that issue is pretty much the same as yours.

I said above in relation to whether it was man made: _"It is not out of the question, but as I am no expert in the field I have to rely on those that are. I have read two credible sources that says it is natural and not man made and the sources that claim it is man made tend to be those that push many other conspiracy theories.

If it were man made I also think the release would have had to have been *accidental. Infecting your own people deliberately, even if they had a working vaccine and cure, would be a ridiculous thing to do. It could get out of control far too easily.* Much better to cause an outbreak near a US military base in Iraq or Germany say and just let the outrage and finger pointing be directed at the US."_

I said in a subsequent post: _The WHO's (or at least their chief spokesman) was gushing in praise for China's actions and when asked about China keeping it quiet for so long avoided answering and just said we should look to the future._

You replied: 







> *This is factually false*.  China advised WHO in late December that there was an unknown cause of pulmonary deaths and acted quickly to determine what it was, providing WHO more information a few weeks later.  What was clearly not known was its level of contagion as Wuhan's hospital staff including doctors, were infected and some died.
> While there is no doubt that China actively and publicly hid the impending catastrophe from its nation and the rest of the world for many weeks, once they realised what they were up against they did what only China could do *and *manage.




Here are some news stories from that time.

*ME:*_ The WHO's (or at least their chief spokesman) was gushing in praise for China's actions_

*Chinese officials note serious problems in coronavirus response. The World Health Organization keeps praising them.*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...63dd7c-4834-11ea-91ab-ce439aa5c7c1_story.html

_Even as evidence mounted that Chinese officials had silenced whistleblowers and undercounted cases, Tedros took a moment to extol the leadership of Chinese President Xi Jinping.

Now — more than a month into an escalating global health crisis — there are questions about whether the WHO’s praise in the early weeks created a false sense of security that potentially spurred the virus’s spread.

“We were deceived,” said Lawrence Gostin, a professor of global health law at Georgetown University who also provides technical assistance to the WHO.

....

At a new conference on Thursday, Tedros was asked, again, about China, including the death of one of the Chinese doctors who sounded the alarm on the virus, only to be detained by police. (He later died of the virus.)

He first deferred to a colleague, then took the chance to speak again, defending China’s handling of the epidemic. “It is very difficult, given the facts,” he said, “to say that China was hiding.”
_
*ME:* _It could possibly be the case that China told him that restricting travel would be counter productive and he just simply assumed that to be the case due to his gushing admiration for what China were doing. But the crazy thing is that allowing unrestricted travel was the exact opposite to the steps China were taking in Wuhan and elsewhere at the time.
_
From same source:

_On Jan. 23, China announced it was expanded the quarantine to other cities — and millions more people.

Later the same day, in Geneva, the WHO decided against declaring a PHEIC. That meant, among other things, *no calls for restrictions on travel in and out of China*, even as Beijing locked down the Chinese heartland.
_
*China hits back at international travel bans as concerns grow coronavirus could damage economy*
_
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dip...-back-international-travel-bans-concerns-grow

While Chinese airlines have been forced to limit their domestic routes as part of the effort to contain the outbreak, the Civil Aviation Administration of China on Tuesday urged them to maintain their international routes.
....
“In order to meet the needs of passengers in and out of the country and the international transport of supplies during this special period … airlines [are required to] … continue transport to nations that have not imposed travel restrictions.”

Xie Feng, Beijing’s top diplomat in Hong Kong, on Friday accused some nations of overreacting to the coronavirus outbreak.

“We hope countries will respect the professional and *authoritative advice of the WHO*, maintain normal economic cooperation, trade and *people-to-people exchanges* … and stop overreacting and fearmongering,” he told a press conference.
_
*ME:* _gushing in praise for China's actions_

*Coronavirus: WHO head stands by his praise for China and Xi Jinping on response to outbreak*

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/sci...o-head-stands-his-praise-china-and-xi-jinping

_The head of the World Health Organisation defended his earlier praise of China’s response to the deadly coronavirus epidemic on Wednesday, questioning critics who disputed President Xi Jinping’s leadership.

At the agency’s daily briefing on the coronavirus – which causes the disease now named Covid-19 – Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the WHO director general, said that Xi had shown the kind of “political commitment” and “political leadership” expected of countries facing a public health crisis.

Tedros made his remarks even while confirming that the Chinese government still has not approved the exact make-up of an advance team WHO wants to send to China to investigate the virus.

“We have met the [Chinese] president. We have seen the level of knowledge he has on the outbreak,” Tedros said at the headquarters of the United Nations health agency in Geneva, Switzerland. “Don’t you appreciate that kind of leadership? We don’t say anything to please anyone.”_

*ME:* _and when asked about China keeping it quiet for so long avoided answering and just said we should look to the future._

*Coronavirus: WHO chief again deflects criticism of China and seeks US$675 million in aid for developing nations*

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soc...hief-again-deflects-criticism-china-and-seeks

_Speaking at a press conference in Geneva, WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said China should only be criticised for its response to the crisis if an “after action review” justifies doing so.

Tedros was responding to media comments by John Mackenzie, an epidemiologist who is part of the world body's emergency committee, that Beijing's early response to the outbreak had been “reprehensible”.

In a Financial Times interview published on Tuesday, Mackenzie was quoted as saying that Chinese authorities had sought to keep the infection figures “quiet” during the outbreak's early days.

Tedros, who has been criticised for repeatedly praising China, *tried to steer the topic away from Beijing’s actions* when asked about Mackenzie's comments.

“Again, I say let’s check,” the director general said. “Maybe we will have the after-action review to see if there was something hidden or not … we will have scientists who will understand, investigate and tell us the truth.

*“Now as a global community, please let's focus on the actions we can take today.”*_


It is hard to see what is *factually false* about what I wrote in my post. I speculated on a possible reason why China continued to demand of the rest of the world to not restrict travel when it was clearly doing the opposite itself. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus praise of Xi was clearly over the top, on a par with Trump's praise of Trump, and raised eyebrows among many observers, even those within WHO itself.

I don't know why this doesn't raise a question in your mind too.


----------



## MovingAverage (25 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I have noticed since I first became aware of your presence on these forums that you have a habit of labelling others stupid.


----------



## MovingAverage (25 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Saying something raises a question mark based on some questionable actions is not starting a conspiracy theory, particularly when many legitimate sources have also raised concerns regarding those actions. More below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’m sitting on the side eating popcorn...can’t wait to see how your post gets twisted and contorted to push this back on your intelligence. The playbook is boringly predictable. Good luck


----------



## satanoperca (25 March 2020)

rederob said:


> The logic of a nation initiating a killer virus within in own borders so it could later spread it globally is mind numbingly stupid.  To think China is that stupid is even more stupid!
> This is factually false.




Rederob, it is actually you who are stupid, misguided, without understanding or comprehension of the world and the people/countries and govnuts, current, past and future.

Your misguided thoughts are beyond comprehension.

China is not stupid, I agree, they are rather, or that be it their leaders are incredibly smart and calculated.

For you think that they are not capable of doing this, I have not answer to try and sway your thoughts.

Yes, they are capable, yes they hide things, yes they commit horrendous crimes against their own people. That is not saying Chinese people do it, but rather their leaders.

To dismiss that the govnuts were not willing to play the most impressive trade card in possibly the history of man, to release a virus upon the world and all it would cost them is 10k in their own people is just stupid and naive.

So i get back to your comment "To think China is that stupid is even more stupid!" it is you that are being stupid, they were not being stupid, they were being highly calculated/intelligent and acting out a game plan. Conquer by trade/$$$, not by force. 

Donald is playing into their hands so well, I cannot believe it.

China will be the next super power by the end of the year and the USA, with the exception that the retaliate with force, is gone.

PS.
I hate bullies, large, small, black or white.


----------



## rederob (25 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I have noticed since I first became aware of your presence on these forums that you have a habit of labelling others stupid.



Some people here say things without evidence or without making a great deal of sense.
I actually agreed with much of your post and at no time suggested you were stupid. *My first point addressed the logic of conspiracy theorists*.  You and anyone are welcome to question anything, but if something does not make sense, and you have no supporting evidence, then the question blows back.  Your example echoed my sense.
You spent a lot of effort on what I presented by way of a few facts, but not one of your points contradicted what I said.
Please do not read into things which I do not claim.


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

Interesting article, indicating the virus hasn't mutated and a measles or chicken pox style vaccine that lasts a long time will be developed.
Sounds as though it is an extremely stable little virus.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/nor...-sign-for-future-vaccine-20200325-p54dn5.html
From the article:
_The new coronavirus has proofreading machinery, however, and that reduces the "error rate" and the pace of mutation. The new coronavirus looks pretty much the same everywhere it has appeared, the scientists say, and there is no evidence that some strains are deadlier than others.
There are only about four to 10 genetic differences between the strains that have infected people in the US and the original virus that spread in Wuhan, he said.

"That's a relatively small number of mutations for having passed through a large number of people," Thielen said. "At this point the mutation rate of the virus would suggest that the vaccine developed for SARS-CoV-2 would be a single vaccine, rather than a new vaccine every year like the flu vaccine."
It would be more like the measles or chickenpox vaccines, he said - something that would likely confer immunity for a long time.

"I would expect a vaccine for coronavirus would have a similar profile to those vaccines. It's great news," Thielen said_.


----------



## bellenuit (25 March 2020)

rederob said:


> You spent a lot of effort on what I presented by way of a few facts, but not one of your points contradicted what I said.
> Please do not read into things which I do not claim.




Actually every one of my facts contradicted what you said *about my post*. I was not responding to your chronology of events that happened in the early stages of the outbreak, that is why I did not address them and did not try to refute them. I assume they were largely correct as you tend to do good research. I was responding to your claim that my post was *factually false*, by providing the evidence that it was based on. This is what I was responding to:






	

		
			
		

		
	
 .


----------



## Humid (25 March 2020)

A theory on blood pressure medication 
https://www.michaelwest.com.au/why-...he-virus/?mc_cid=238ddd6089&mc_eid=37fd81d476


----------



## MovingAverage (25 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Some people here say things without evidence




Who would have thought that people on an internet forum would venture so far as to say things without evidence...mate, that is completely outrageous and how dare people express their own opinions and thoughts without rigorous fact checking. Quick let's scream outrage and organise a royal commission into BS on forums


----------



## IFocus (25 March 2020)

Humid said:


> A theory on blood pressure medication
> https://www.michaelwest.com.au/why-...he-virus/?mc_cid=238ddd6089&mc_eid=37fd81d476




Asks a great question H good find.


----------



## rederob (25 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Actually every one of my facts contradicted what you said *about my post*. I was not responding to your chronology of events that happened in the early stages of the outbreak, that is why I did not address them and did not try to refute them. I assume they were largely correct as you tend to do good research. I was responding to your claim that my post was *factually false*, by providing the evidence that it was based on. This is what I was responding to:
> 
> View attachment 101698
> 
> ...



I followed this from day one.
I certainly have not read, watched or listened to everything.
Please read these as there is a divergence between media commentary and the level of cooperation between the WHO and China.
Perhaps China could have notified the WHO earlier than they did, but remember that when they did, they were clear that they were dealing with something "unknown," acted quickly to determine exactly what it was, and shared this information with the world immediately it became known.
Your post inferred that China had kept this matter "quiet" for a long time, and I had hoped my earlier reply showed that their actions at the "official" level were actually timely.


----------



## qldfrog (25 March 2020)

@bellenuit , do not even engage i initial thought he was a paid troll may even low end AI. just use ignore..whatever the subject..


----------



## qldfrog (25 March 2020)

Now let's go back to the interesting posts


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## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

I find it interesting that the media has been screaming for a full shutdown for about a week, yet the borders have only been closed for a day, wouldn't it make sense to get people home and allow them to get their house in order before shutting down?
I personally think the staged approach that is happening, is controlling the chaos that will obviously happen when a complete shutdown is called, there will be people who just flick the bird and disregard any instruction as has already been shown.
If you have people trying to drive home to Perth, say from North Queensland, the last thing you want is the police fining them for just trying to get home.
When the shutdown is called, the police will have to be given the power to detain and fine people for public disobedience, the last thing you want is muppet's being mixed with people trying to do the right thing and get home.
An orderly and timely wind down, seems the logical way, to have any chance of a successful outcome IMO.
As always just my opinion, which no doubt everyone has.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-25/australia-needs-coronavirus-lockdown-now-expert-says/12088348


----------



## bellenuit (25 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Your post inferred that China had kept this matter "quiet" for a long time,




No, it did not. I made no comment what so ever regarding the speed of China's response.

What I commented on was why China ostracised other countries for imposing an international travel ban on China when China themselves were imposing extremely strict limitations on their own citizens' movements. What was their motivation for doing this, when it went against everything they themselves thought necessary to stem the spread of the virus.

And related to that is whether the WHO general director was in any way wittingly or unwittingly supporting China's stance on that issue. I have given the links above, but a few issues stand out.

1. The WHO general director, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, was seen by many as completely over the top in his praise for Xi and the actions of the CPP.

2. Xi and the CPP spoke out strongly against bans on international travel.

3. WHO decided against declaring a PHEIC, which meant there would be no calls for restrictions on travel in and out of China.

4. Xi and the CPP used the WHO declarations on international travel in their ostracisms of other countries imposing a ban.

5. The bans greatly slowed down the spread of the virus world wide, but complete isolation of China would have been better. Most early cases outside of China related directly to people travelling from China.


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

Another example of Australians respect for authority. It will be interesting when a full shutdown is called IMO.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...-t-deter-sydney-swimmers-20200325-p54dul.html
From the article:
A fence spanning the length of Bronte Beach wasn't enough to deter everyone from the water, with handfuls of beachgoers still spotted on Wednesday morning.

The extreme measures come after viral photos of Bondi Beach last weekend amplified concerns that Australians were not taking social distancing laws seriously enough.
In response, Waverley Council temporarily closed Bondi, Bronte and Tamarama beaches - but some would not be deterred from their morning swim despite health warnings and physical barriers presented to them.

A Sydney photographer said he was on the end of a barrage of abuse from a swimmer at Bronte after taking photos of the man and others ignoring warnings to stay off the beach.


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

Humid said:


> It must be a joke
> There’s 15 bottle shops within 5 minutes of my ranch



Instead of doctor hopping, you will have to bottle shop hop.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ohol-sales-from-bottle-shops-limited/12087974


----------



## rederob (25 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I made no comment what so ever regarding the speed of China's response.



I commented on this:







bellenuit said:


> ... when asked about China keeping it quiet for so long avoided answering....



Here's a bit more balance to the situation.


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2020)

There is currently a lawsuit against China for hiding information about the outbreak. Should be interesting.


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2020)

rederob said:


> I commented on this:Here's a bit more balance to the situation.



Paywall


----------



## SirRumpole (25 March 2020)

Prince Charles has tested positive for coronavirus.


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

OMG it seems we get a balanced report.
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...hich-had-advice-rejected-20200325-p54dud.html
From the article:
_The chair of an academic advisory group which had its recommended strategy to curb COVID-19 rejected by the federal government says there is no perfect solution to the pandemic and those in power should be trusted to make hard decisions during the unprecedented crisis.

A 22-member team from the Group of Eight universities called for a rapid, sweeping and costly lockdown to pave the way for a national recovery once the crisis abates, having been convened following a request from Chief Medical Officer Brendan Murphy.
The government has been criticised for resisting the more hardline lockdown and on Tuesday Professor Murphy said the Group of Eight advice was "very seriously considered" but noted the conclusions were not unanimous and the government wanted measures that would be sustainable long-term. He said "harder measures" might be required if community transmission increased.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison said the country was facing both health and economic crises and cautioned against rushing into hardline measures because of the potentially "great toll on people's lives, not just their livelihoods".
Shitij Kapur, dean of medicine at the University of Melbourne, praised the government for seeking a range of expert opinions and said advice on "very complex, unprecedented circumstances is not black and white", which was why the group he chaired had canvassed a diversity of views on how to escalate social distancing measures.

Loading
"We have to all humbly recognise that we don't know the perfect answer and people who have to reduce all the advice into an actionable decision have a very tough task to do," he told The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.

"I feel that our job is to give them the evidence and then we have to trust them to make the right decision."
He said it was easy to offer advice as an academic but those in power had to weigh up a complex mix of medical, scientific, economic and social factors. He also noted the situation was evolving "dramatically" and had changed even as the expert group developed their recommendations from late last week until Sunday.


Professor Kapur said people could not be complacent and he was comfortable with a much stronger lockdown but it should also be recognised that Australia was showing low infection rates, high testing rates, low fatality rates and still relatively few cases from local community transition.

"We should in no way be complacent but I don't think we should throw stones at a system that has managed to achieve these statistics," he said._

The Government will be criticised or applauded for the way this is handled, with hindsight after it is over, way too many are armchair experts ATM. 
The problem with the armchair experts, they have no responsibility or accountability for the overall outcome, only their own.
Kudos to Professor Kapur, for having the courage to say it as it is, rather than pander to outside pressure.
Just my opinion.


----------



## bellenuit (25 March 2020)

rederob said:


> I commented on this:Here's a bit more balance to the situation.




That's what he was asked about as you can read in my links. I was just reporting that fact.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> There is currently a lawsuit against China



I think all the China stuff can be divided into two categories really:

1. Where the virus came from, was it man-made or natural, actions of Chinese authorities and so on.

2. A broader concern, separate to the virus but made very obvious by it, that Australia is too dependent on other countries of which China just happens to be the most obvious but not the only one.

Only point 1 I'm unsure but on point 2 it's blindingly obvious to anyone paying attention.


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> 2. A broader concern, separate to the virus but made very obvious by it, that Australia is too dependent on other countries of which China just happens to be the most obvious but not the only one.



Possibly the point in which we are forced to grow up. China was an easy meal ticket. Problem is that we are beggars at the table.


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

W.A has problems with cruise ships refusing to go home.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...ship-chaos-off-fremantle-20200325-p54dtn.html
From the article:
_The Artania requested assistance with health assessments and COVID-19 testing last night. WA Health Department clinicians are on board the ship, but results of testing will not be known until later tonight.

The Magnifica has been denied access to ports in Dubai, which was its next port of call, and returned to Fremantle.

Mr McGowan said he would not rule out seeking the Commonwealth's assistance to stop the ships docking in Fremantle, including deploying measures used in 2001 to stop the Norwegian ship MV Tampa bringing asylum seekers to enter Australian waters.

The SAS was deployed to take control of the ship and prevent it coming alongside an Australian port.

"Those two ships need to go home," Mr McGowan said.


"The Magnifica and the Artania both need to leave and go back to their port of origin and leave as soon as possible.

"That's why we're requesting Commonwealth government assistance in relation to a range of things, for instance if we need to medivac someone whose life is at risk off one of the ships to save their life.

"We might also need assistance and cooperation in terms of stopping the ships from actually coming into port_."

And another ship due to return to Perth with Australians on board:

_Mr McGowan said preparations were under way for Australian passengers on board the Vasco da Gama to be quarantined on Rottnest.

There are 800 Australians, including 200 West Australians, on board the ship.


"For the last two days, we have cleared the island of visitors and made arrangements for accommodation, catering and security," he said.

"We're exercising the Rottnest option now to protect the safety of the Australian passengers and to protect the WA community from any possible infection."

The Premier said all crew and foreign nationals would remain on the ship until arrangements are made to fly them directly out of the country.

They would only be allowed to disembark to travel by strict supervision directly to the airport or if they need urgent medical attention to survive.

Mr McGowan said about a quarter of WA's COVID-19 cases had been linked to cruise ships from the eastern states_.


----------



## Humid (25 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> W.A has problems with cruise ships refusing to go home.
> https://www.watoday.com.au/national...ship-chaos-off-fremantle-20200325-p54dtn.html
> From the article:
> _The Artania requested assistance with health assessments and COVID-19 testing last night. WA Health Department clinicians are on board the ship, but results of testing will not be known until later tonight.
> ...




How do they get in without tugs and a pilot?


----------



## Humid (25 March 2020)

How do you think this industry is going to fare after this calms down.
Cruises to me are like groundhog day


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

Humid said:


> How do they get in without tugs and a pilot?



These new cruise ships, run high tech navigation and side thrusters and rotating propeller pods (azipods) which can rotate the main propellers position 360 deg  , from what I have seen they can dock no problem.
The tugs and pilot are only a safety and cursory measure, with the pilot I think it is mostly past practice and custom, with an insurance component.


----------



## Humid (25 March 2020)

Worked on ships for years and  you can’t just steam into Freo harbour without tugs and a pilot


----------



## sptrawler (25 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Worked on ships for years and  you can’t just steam into Freo harbour without tugs and a pilot



They don't use steam. except in the laundry.
But getting back to Freo, I have arrived here on a few ships and the new one's have the tug connected, but a loose line.
I was on the Ovation of the seas when it first came a couple of years back, it did a 180 turn in the harbour, not a lot of room front and back, the tugs stood by but didn't get involved.


----------



## Humid (26 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> They don't use steam.
> But getting back to Freo, I have arrived here on a few ships and the new one's have the tug connected, but a loose line.




Yes they do to heat the fuel oil and tracer lines
A tug connected complete with pilot


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

Humid said:


> A tug connected complete with pilot



Or there would be a strike.


----------



## Humid (26 March 2020)

My point is they’re letting them in but they won’t leave......like you at parties


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

A bit off topic, but just to clear up the issue.
https://www.krbd.org/2020/02/06/as-cruise-ships-get-bigger-southeasts-tug-fleet-lags-behind/
From the article:
“_Two years ago, the size of vessels coming to Southeast jumped dramatically with the Norwegian Bliss. And then this last year, the Norwegian joy was added, and the Ovation of the Seas and the Royal Princess,” he said reached by phone.

Alaska requires licensed pilots like him to guide foreign-flagged ships in state waters.

But Herring says these megaships generally don’t need any help getting into and out of port.

“These big ships are very maneuverable,” he said. “They’re built to not require tugs to get to the dock and away from the dock.”

In fact, if they did need tugs, they’d have to look elsewhere. In 2019, Herring’s organization, Southeast Alaska Pilots’ Association published a study recommending larger tractor tugs capable of pulling megaships. And the pilots say there aren’t any of those in Southeast Alaska_.

By the way H, I have my marine seconds ticket (theory), we are like brothers, hey.


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2020)

I noticed the narrative was different to what actually happened in a post above. Just so we are clear on the attempted cover up.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

Humid said:


> How do you think this industry is going to fare after this calms down.
> Cruises to me are like groundhog day



A lot will depend on how well they mitigate peoples loses this time, I'm out of pocket $10k for flights & cruises that have been cancelled, they all say you will be reimbursed but seeing is believing IMO.


----------



## Humid (26 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> A bit off topic, but just to clear up the issue.
> https://www.krbd.org/2020/02/06/as-cruise-ships-get-bigger-southeasts-tug-fleet-lags-behind/
> From the article:
> “_Two years ago, the size of vessels coming to Southeast jumped dramatically with the Norwegian Bliss. And then this last year, the Norwegian joy was added, and the Ovation of the Seas and the Royal Princess,” he said reached by phone.
> ...




I was working on azimuth drive vessels 30 years ago nothing new


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

Humid said:


> I was working on azimuth drive vessels 30 years ago nothing new



These new monsters when they dock, they generally have a tug escort, but they just stand by in case anything goes wrong. From what I have seen.
Anyway off topic, but an interesting topic.


----------



## MovingAverage (26 March 2020)

Let's hope this is the start of our attempts to flatten the curve

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...nsw-increase-but-new-infections-down/12090784


----------



## Dona Ferentes (26 March 2020)

meantime... yesterday in Italy... 683 deaths.  That's *nearly one every two minutes.* And nearly all from pulmonary failure. (Described as 'drowning in air' if you need a simple concept of how death comes)


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

MovingAverage said:


> Let's hope this is the start of our attempts to flatten the curve
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...nsw-increase-but-new-infections-down/12090784



It would be brilliant for the Country, if we don't have to go to full lockdown, if people just act sensibly we may slide through this.
Wouldn't that be great.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

McGowan holding his line with the two cruise ships anchored of Freo.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...e-ship-off-wa-test-positive-covid-19/12091884


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2020)

Humid said:


> I was working on azimuth drive vessels 30 years ago nothing new



Were you a Tug master?


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2020)

I can see three cruisers off the coast here in NSW. They have been sitting there a while.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (26 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> I can see three cruisers off the coast here in NSW. They have been sitting there a while.



News last night said there were 11 cruise ships (I hope they weren't cruisers!) and over 2,500 passengers not allowed to berth. And then there's the crew ... what is the ratio; close to 1:1?

(elsewhere, Senator Payne said ... there were also over 3,000 Australians on more than 30 cruise ships around the world at the moment.)

and sadly, blame game etc, part of the challenge lies in our *Federal system.* Commonwealth has border controls, army, revenue raising, while States have health , and police and education


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

Tasmania is tightening up the border rules. Isolating the States and allowing them to take independent measures may be effective, some of the less populated States may be able to eradicate it effectively. The more populated States of NSW and Victoria will probably have a lot more problems unfortunately.
Time will tell, a lot will be learnt.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...e-ship-off-wa-test-positive-covid-19/12091884
From the article:
_Tourists in Tasmania have been ordered to go home by the state's premier, who has also implored people not to visit the island amid the coronavirus pandemic.

People staying in hotels, hostels, bed and breakfasts, campsites and boarding houses have until midnight on Sunday to leave their accommodation, the state government has announced.

"I'm sorry to say that, but go home," Premier Peter Gutwein told reporters on Thursday.

"Unfortunately there will be some dislocation for people but I make no apologies for working hard to keep Tasmanians safe."

Mr Gutwein also implored non-essential visitors to stay away, noting a mandatory 14-day quarantine period on arrival for anyone not considered essential.

"We're built on tourism so it hurts me to say that but do not come and put Tasmanians at risk," he said.

"We're an island and we are unique in that regard. We have used our island state as an advantage_."


----------



## IFocus (26 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> McGowan holding his line with the two cruise ships anchored of Freo.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...e-ship-off-wa-test-positive-covid-19/12091884




NSW dropped the ball lesson learnt by all.

I wonder if the indigenous ghosts of Rotto will rise?


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2020)

Good idea to up house security. Last recession was a thieving fest.


----------



## IFocus (26 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Good idea to up house security. Last recession was a thieving fest.




Yes crime will rise dramatically


----------



## Humid (26 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Were you a Tug master?



I've been called worse


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2020)

Humid said:


> I've been called worse



That was a legit question. I can't help the occupational name


----------



## orr (26 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Orr do you have a link to an official recognition, that COVID-19 has developed through natural process?
> It would probably clear everything up for members of the forum, some official info as to the origin would be good.
> Just my opinion.




Putting up any science backed opinion in these pages is a fools errand Trawler.
My I suggest though; Ask yourself what you know of Viruses and the history of Virology, it's long well documented and has a proven track record. 
Then... 
From whom are you now absorbing information and what they may know of the same. From there start to draw an outline.
Ockhams razor will do you no harm at this point.


----------



## wayneL (26 March 2020)

FWIW


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> FWIW




If this is true, one would think the cocktail would be rolled out in Spain and Italy, as there are plenty there who could prove it one way or another.


----------



## IFocus (26 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> FWIW






I wonder if what ever else was HIV antiviral drugs?


Hopefully not correlation / causation


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> FWIW




I'm hearing multiple stories of this happening.
Apparently just after medication it gets worse. Next day you are better.


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If this is true, one would think the cocktail would be rolled out in Spain and Italy, as there are plenty there who could prove it one way or another.



It's banned in certain countries as it made malaria mutate, or something


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> It's banned in certain countries as it made malaria mutate, or something



If it can make a virus mutate, it may not be the best thing to be administering.


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If it can make a virus mutate, it may not be the best thing to be administering.



I'm not up to speed on the specifics.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

I had to go to the local shopping center today, there wern't many people there and those that were kept distance between themselves. The message must be getting through, also there wasn't much traffic on the roads, which is very unusual.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2020)

From this article, it would appear W.A is getting set for a further tightening of movement.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ed-to-keep-children-home-from-school/12092596

From the article:
The WA Premier has asked parents to keep children home from school if possible, with the last day of the current term brought forward to April 3.
The measure is to allow teachers to work on preparing remote teaching resources for term two.

Students who must attend school, for example children whose parents must work or children who cannot be cared for safely, are encouraged to attend and will continued to be taught until April 6.
After that public schools will provide supervision only, not teaching, until the end of term on April 9.
When asked whether earlier medical advice around the safety of sending children to school had changed, Ms Ellery said it had not.

"[This is about] ensuring that those people who need to stay working in the current circumstances can," she said.

"It is about recognising our staff need time to develop and prepare and do the professional development for what in term two is going to be a very different way of delivering.

"And it's recognising significant numbers of parents are already keeping their children at home."

Ms Ellery said term two would "look different"
I think it will be a combination of physical attendance at schools, maybe some schools, maybe all schools, plus a combination of distanced education which will be hard copy packs and online," Ms Ellery said.


----------



## qldfrog (26 March 2020)

A french situation debrief, last night aka this morning there:
1331 deaths in hospital (aged care homes call EHPAD deaths not counted and very high: multiple digits per center )
worse:2 827 in ICU, 33% are less than 60y old
The total number of ICU beds in France was 4100 , there are army tent hospital being built etc as we speak
so 70% of ICu beds occupied by virus victims..not a good time for a stroke


----------



## moXJO (26 March 2020)

Friend just watched a guy spit on all the pedestrian light buttons in center of Sydney(Aussie). I've also heard lift buttons, door handles and on fruit and veg.


----------



## qldfrog (26 March 2020)

about hydroxychloroquine
A pathetic case in France:
This is an antimalarial product widely used worldwide
In January this medicine has been de-registered by the french Health minister who is married to a French medicine mandarin. Reason was resistant malaria strains..fair
That husband is in full ego battle for position, etc with another Marseilles top medicine mandarin who is using that product and has claimed to have saved numerous lifes in Marseille with it
With a bit of evidences, as well as Chinese precedents
The Marseille top hospital guy is not a no one : top awards , in the virus field, etc etc, we would compare with a Brisbane/Melbourne top health research professor
Their bitter war was prior to the virus and the health minister did not attend the Marseilles public funded new lab opening (public money) so bad is this internal war....
So the Health minister is now requesting a study to prove that compound is not dangerous, remember it has been used for 75y + as antimalarial. I used it during trips to Borneo 10y ago or so
This is the world we live in...
This is creating a huge public opinion backlash but the government does not bulge..and you thought our LNP Labour war was bad. It is not even political...
People are queuing at the Marseille hospital to get that potentially life saving medicine
The final irony: the laboratory which used to produce this compound in France was being closed as its production was being moved to China by the big Sanofi group..
Where do I put the crying meme??


----------



## qldfrog (26 March 2020)

a little exploration :
based on https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/
or https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/
Italy got 1k cases 29/02, moved to 2600 on 3rd of march; (3 days or so later)
here we are just 3 weeks behind;
1k cases 21/03 reached 2600 cases yesterday so 4 days later similar overall so we can expect italian situation in 3 weeks I expect death rate slightly lower due to younger population but ICU overloaded anyway
if comparing with France..younger population:
France 1k cases 8th of March; 2600 11 or 12th of March: slower than Italy/Australia;
France is 2 weeks before us:
so *in 2 weeks (9th of April) expect over 1000 deaths* here just figures..I try not to think about the human cost behind


----------



## jbocker (26 March 2020)

Just did a skype session with my grand daughter with her school work. Mum photographed the work sent it to me and I connected on Skype and chatted and tested her. Enjoyable.
I even got some of it right, but lets hope it doesn't continue next year, I gonna struggle when she is in year 4. 
Might look up some resources from distance learning. Any tips?


----------



## DB008 (26 March 2020)

*Coronavirus: Iceland’s mass testing finds half of*
*carriers show no symptoms*​As the coronavirus pandemic surges worldwide, each piece of data counts in the fight against the deadly pathogen.

But significant findings about the contagious disease are coming from an unlikely place: Iceland, the tiny Island state with a population of just 364,000 people, where authorities are testing large numbers of the population – without imposing any lockdown or curfew.

As of Sunday night, the country’s health authorities and the biotechnology firm deCode Genetics have tested more than 10,300 people. That might not sound like a large number, compared to the around 350,000 Americans who have been tested for coronavirus according to the COVID Tracking Project, but it is a far higher percentage of tests per population - a ratio Icelandic authorities have claimed is the highest in the world.

But it is not just the numbers of people being tested that is unusual about Iceland’s approach.

Unlike other countries, where people are only tested if they exhibit symptons of coronavirus or have come into contact with known spreaders, the country is testing thousands of people from the general population who don’t exhibit any symptoms of the virus whatsoever – helping to reveal information about the nature of the pathogen and its symptoms.

While Iceland has only 218 confirmed cases among its tiny population, its testing program has produced crucial data about the coronavirus - that half of those who were tested positive has no coronavirus symptoms.

This confirms multiple pieces of scientific research that have shown that coronavirus is spread more through people with the virus who show no sign of being sick. Researchers from The University of Texas at Austin had found out that more than 10 percent of patients were infected by somebody who has the virus but does not yet have symptoms.

“Early results from deCode Genetics indicate that a low proportion of the general population has contracted the virus and that about half of those who tested positive are non-symptomatic,” Thorolfur Guðnason, Iceland’s chief epidemiologist, was quoted as saying BuzzFeed News. “The other half displays very moderate cold-like symptoms.”​
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/fe...sting-finds-half-of-carriers-show-no-symptoms​


----------



## IFocus (26 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> It's banned in certain countries as it made malaria mutate, or something




Malaria just developed a resistance to it.


----------



## jbocker (27 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> It's banned in certain countries as it made malaria mutate, or something



I don't know it was banned for mutation of the parasite. For a long time I understood the following was the issue with Malaria. Why it has been so difficult to eradicate. Add to that it is a tropical disease in difficult to manage sometimes inhospitable environments.
*Malaria parasite transforms itself to hide from human immune system*
*https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/duraisingh-malaria-parasite-transforms/*


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2020)

The scary thing that is a known fact is IMO, it hasn't mutated, that would have to be considered weird when you consider the amount of hosts it has jumped through. Also children still aren't overly represented in the mortality rate, when you consider they have an immature immune system.
Just my opinion.


----------



## qldfrog (27 March 2020)

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020...y-my-coronavirus-warning/12092882?pfmredir=sm
Highlight our mindless insistance on following the Italian model...


----------



## Knobby22 (27 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The scary thing that is a known fact is IMO, it hasn't mutated, that would have to be considered weird when you consider the amount of hosts it has jumped through. Also children still aren't overly represented in the mortality rate, when you consider they have an immature immune system.
> Just my opinion.



I am not aware of any deaths of children! But if you are 70 or over the death rate is quite high.From what I have read basically if you get symptoms in that age group (not asymptomatic) you have a 15% of dying within 3 weeks..
Frankly if you are in this age group or like me have parents in this age group you don't want to go the Italy/USA route.

By the way, it has changed as it travels through different hosts, the essential structure is stable, not unusual.


----------



## Logique (27 March 2020)

DB008 said:


> *Coronavirus: Iceland’s mass testing finds half of*
> *carriers show no symptoms*​As the coronavirus pandemic surges worldwide, each piece of data counts in the fight against the deadly pathogen.
> 
> But significant findings about the contagious disease are coming from an unlikely place: Iceland, the tiny Island state with a population of just 364,000 people, where authorities are testing large numbers of the population – without imposing any lockdown or curfew.
> ...



Interesting article DB008 and some salient points:

_"...a far higher percentage of tests per population - a ratio Icelandic authorities have claimed is the highest in the world...*half *of those who were tested positive has* no coronavirus symptoms*....
..about half of those who tested positive are non-symptomatic,” Thorolfur Guðnason, Iceland’s chief epidemiologist,.. “The other half displays very moderate cold-like symptoms.."_


----------



## moXJO (27 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> Malaria just developed a resistance to it.



That was it.


----------



## bellenuit (27 March 2020)

Good on you Trump. You have made the US Number 1 again. It now has the highest official number of infections and active cases, ahead of China, Italy and Spain.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries


----------



## moXJO (27 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Good on you Trump. You have made the US Number 1 again. It now has the highest official number of infections and active cases, ahead of China, Italy and Spain.
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries



USA!!! USA!!!


----------



## basilio (27 March 2020)

I think the US will have to try a bit harder to stay on top of the CORVID 19 chart.  There could be stiff competition from Brazil when Trumps mate Bolsanaro lets it all rip.

But Trump is certainly leading the way. If he can convince enough supporters that he is indeed the Son of God and will lead the Easter resurrection with a million strong campaign rally on Easter Sunday there should be no problem at all in reaching 50 million converts by the end of April.


----------



## moXJO (27 March 2020)

Off topic, but remember when we were fattest nation......
Good times.


----------



## Logique (27 March 2020)

Joe,
may I suggest a merge of threads: this with the other Covid thread at: https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/asf-coronavirus-infection-thread.35261/page-2
Cheers Lg


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Off topic, but remember when we were fattest nation......



Could actually turn out to be a health advantage if we're all locked inside for a few weeks and can't get food.

The body will use up the fat to keep going wont it?


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Good on you Trump. You have made the US Number 1 again.



The cynic in me thinks that Trump doesn't really think the US will be open for business by the 12th of April and the statement was really just a way to ignite a rally in the stock market. A rally that'll top out just before that date as it becomes apparent that it's not going to happen.


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2020)

Just saw a driver training instructor, in a car with the learner, difficult to keep the 1.5 m space, unless they strap a chair to the outside of the passenger door.


----------



## IFocus (27 March 2020)

I wonder what the fall out from this if any will be?


https://www.smh.com.au/national/sec...edical-supplies-to-china-20200326-p54e8n.html


----------



## IFocus (27 March 2020)

"The fumbling of this immediate battle – too little fiscal firepower delivered too slowly where it’s needed, the generals’ apparent lack of knowledge of priorities on the frontline – doesn’t instil confidence in the war being short.

An economist friend who prefers to remain anonymous warned me last week that a coming ‘in’ word would be hysteresis."

https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/...um=email&utm_campaign=Morning News - 20200327


----------



## basilio (27 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Could actually turn out to be a health advantage if we're all locked inside for a few weeks and can't get food.
> 
> The body will use up the fat to keep going wont it?



You didn't  seriously  mean that did you Smurf ?

This will *never, ever* happen in the US or Oz.
Simply speaking our society  lives three meals  from anarchy.  If there was any serious risk of people actually going hungry the guns would be out, the stores would be looted. 

Far  more likely that as  bored people settle into some serious  fast food, snacks, boozing and Netflix the pounds pile on.

In a couple on months some people won't be able to get out the doors..


----------



## moXJO (27 March 2020)

basilio said:


> You didn't  seriously  mean that did you Smurf ?
> 
> This will *never, ever* happen in the US or Oz.
> Simply speaking our society  lives three meals  from anarchy.  If there was any serious risk of people actually going hungry the guns would be out, the stores would be looted.
> ...



Hey it is Easter season and the eggs are already out.
I noticed Coles had placed the Easter eggs where the toilet paper should be. 
Not sure this is a sign that toilet paper is now extinct, or it's the latest hygiene fad.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2020)

basilio said:


> You didn't seriously mean that did you Smurf ?



Nah - just trying to be a bit light hearted given everything's so doom and gloom at the moment.

On the subject of which, apparently it's a thing now to put a teddy bear in the window. The idea is about "bear hunts" for young kids to spot them and cheer them up a bit. So if you've got any bears then put them in the windows facing the street is the idea.


----------



## grah33 (27 March 2020)

u think this sanitiser is alright?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/500ML-Sanitizer-Instant-Gel-75-Alcohol-Kills-99-99-Germs-Disinfectant/303524694274?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



(has no brand. hopefully no toxic alcohol substance that destroys body tissue)


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2020)

grah33 said:


> hopefully no toxic alcohol substance that destroys body tissue



Hate to give you the bad news but it's the alcohol that kills the virus.

It needs to be 70%+ alcohol to be effective. Whatever else it contains is really just to try and offset the damage the alcohol is doing to your skin etc but it's the strong alcohol that makes it effective.

So as long as it's 70%+ alcohol then it'll do the job.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> I noticed Coles had placed the Easter eggs where the toilet paper should be.
> Not sure this is a sign that toilet paper is now extinct, or it's the latest hygiene fad.



I'm told that the reasoning is to try and make the stores look less empty. 

The thinking being that seeing empty shelves was encouraging panic buying so it was better to put something, anything, on them than to leave them empty.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (27 March 2020)

_Behind the careful phrasing and cold language of this study is a *nightmare vision of what the pandemic could mean globally, especially to the poorest people on the planet.*_

_With bigger households, including the older generations most at risk, and healthcare systems that are far more fragile than those in richer countries, the prospects for developing nations look grim._

_Speaking to the scientists while they were preparing the report, it was clear that they were all too aware of the horrific implications of their work. _

_Originally, the study was meant to be released last week but as each day passed new data emerged which could be added to the model - the computer simulation of the outbreak - to make it more accurate. _

_It all leads to a stark conclusion: that as the virus spreads, *only the most draconian measures will lessen the impact a*nd that the countries least able to protect themselves will be among the hardest hit. _

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52055546

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/news--wuhan-coronavirus/


----------



## orr (27 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> USA!!! USA!!!




Look I know this is an up lifting thread and I'd hate to put the mockkers on but.... Are any of you guy's doing the math on what's the likely out come of mortality in the US in a week to a fortnight?
And then it gets worse.

Two  plus weeks ago I was listening to a Professor from John Hopkins...For those interested, you'd find it. He was talking in he range of over a quarter percentage point of the US population as casualties. The ones you plant, By the time this washes through.
Hard to know what that's going to look like.

But they've saved some good coin by _'nickel and dime'ing_' the 'WHO' since the time of Reagan... They'll be able to afford the body bags..


----------



## Dona Ferentes (27 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> I noticed Coles had placed the Easter eggs where the toilet paper should be.
> Not sure this is a sign that toilet paper is now extinct, or it's the latest hygiene fad.



our local Coles was absolutely chokkas with nappies an baby stuff. not even an allowance or concession that TP or paper towels will return


----------



## moXJO (27 March 2020)

orr said:


> Look I know this is an up lifting thread and I'd hate to put the mockkers on but.... Are any of you guy's doing the math on what's the likely out come of mortality in the US in a week to a fortnight?
> And then it gets worse.
> 
> Two  plus weeks ago I was listening to a Professor from John Hopkins...For those interested, you'd find it. He was talking in he range of over a quarter percentage point of the US population as casualties. The ones you plant, By the time this washes through.
> ...



USA!!!


----------



## moXJO (27 March 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> our local Coles was absolutely chokkas with nappies an baby stuff. not even an allowance or concession that TP or paper towels will return



Just noticed nappies returning, thank God.


----------



## grah33 (27 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Hate to give you the bad news but it's the alcohol that kills the virus.
> 
> It needs to be 70%+ alcohol to be effective. Whatever else it contains is really just to try and offset the damage the alcohol is doing to your skin etc but it's the strong alcohol that makes it effective.
> 
> So as long as it's 70%+ alcohol then it'll do the job.



i was thinking of the toxic meth spirits alcohol.  can poison body tissue (can go through the skin)


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 March 2020)

for those in need
· From 13 March 2020 to 30 September 2020 (inclusive), new MBS telehealth items are available for services provided to vulnerable people within the community or who are in isolation due to COVID-19, and services provided by providers who are in isolation due to COVID-19, or more susceptible to COVID-19.
· The new items are available to GPs, medical practitioners, nurse practitioners, participating midwives and allied mental health providers.
· The new services must be bulk billed.

As part of the Australian Government’s response to COVID-19, 92 new items have been introduced to provide services to vulnerable people within the community or in suspect cases self-isolation due to COVID-19, and enable provision of services via telehealth where the health professional has or is identified as at risk of COVID-19.

The new items are:

http://www.mbsonline.gov.au/internet/mbsonline/publishing.nsf/Content/Factsheet-TempBB


----------



## macca (27 March 2020)

I have read in a couple of places that by far the best is warm soapy water for hand washing.

Apparently the virus molecule is all held together with a lipid which is simply a fat.

As we know soap dissolves fat so a thorough hand wash is actually the cheapest and the best.

Disinfecting surfaces is the best way to clean them, anti bacterial wipes are not so effective as this is a virus not bacteria.


----------



## moXJO (27 March 2020)

*Soap and water*
Soap and water are your first line of defence to remove the virus from surfaces. Soap interferes with the fats in the virus shell and lift the virus from surfaces and this is then rinsed off by water. Of course, you also need to wash your hands when you come in from the shops and wash your food as normal.

*Bleach*
The active ingredient in bleach – sodium hypochlorite – is very effective at killing the virus. Make sure you leave the bleach to work for 10-15 minutes then give the surface a wipe with a clean cloth. The bleach works by destroying the protein and what’s known as the ribonucleic acid (RNA) of the virus – this is the substance that gives the blueprint for making more virus particles when you become infected. Be sure to use the bleach as directed on the bottle.

*Surgical spirit*
Surgical spirit is mostly made up of the alcohol ethanol. Ethanol has been shown to kill coronaviruses in as little as 30 seconds. Like bleach, the alcohol destroys the protein and RNA that the virus is made up of. Moisten a cloth with some neat surgical spirit and rub it over a surface. This will evaporate and you will not need to wipe it off.


_*Surface wipes*
The active ingredient in surface wipes in an antiseptic –- usually benzalkonium chloride. The wipes work by physically removing germs through the pressure you apply when you use them, and the germs then attach to the wipe.

They also leave a layer of the antiseptic on the surface that works to kill germs. The antiseptic works well on bacteria as well as on coronaviruses that infect mice and dogs – but it seems to make no difference to the spread of human coronavirus. Antiseptics work by disrupting the fats in pathogen cells, but SARS-CoV-2 does not contain many fats. So far, there is no evidence that antiseptics can kill human coronaviruses.

*Hand sanitisers*
A word of warning though about hand sanitisers. The main ingredient in hand sanitisers that will kill SARS-CoV-2 is ethanol, the alcohol in surgical spirit. But its concentration in the sanitiser is very important –- it has to be over 70 % or it will not kill the virus effectively.

One thing you can also do is make sure you air out the spaces you are spending time in regularly. An infected person will produce thousands of tiny droplets which contain the virus every time they cough. SARS-CoV-2 can survive in the air for up to three hours. So by opening the window, you can remove and disperse the droplets and reduce the amount of virus in the air – which will reduce the risk of infection for others.

We are living in uncertain times but it’s reassuring to know that we have some weapons we can use to fight COVID-19 in our homes. The bottom line: keep washing your hands, use 70% hand sanitiser, dust off the bleach and open a window to let in the spring air._


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> The bottom line: keep washing your hands, use 70% hand sanitiser, dust off the bleach and open a window to let in the spring air.



I don't disagree with any of the advice as such but I'll add that opening a window is only going to help if there's an infected person around. That is, it's pointless if you're sitting at home by yourself etc.

The great dilemma being that the places where it would be most effective are the very same places where windows are typically not openable. Public transport, supermarkets etc. 

Reason for mentioning it that I have visions of everyone leaving the windows open at home, spending a fortune on heating during winter and inviting the burglars in. Sounds silly but apparently in the US pretty much exactly that did happen during the Spanish flu indeed there was a building code change relating to it at the time.


----------



## IFocus (27 March 2020)

*Coronavirus: Prime Minister Boris Johnson tests positive*

*Mr Johnson said he developed mild symptoms over the past 24 hours, including a temperature and cough.*

*https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52060791*


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Just noticed nappies returning, thank God.



Why have you run out of toilet paper, sorry couldn't help myself.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 March 2020)

I'll leave it to the article to explain but it's time to permanently close these markets of mass destruction which have unleashed what seems to be a completely avoidable tragedy affecting just about every country on earth.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...d/news-story/e92d62f2188361bec9079f105eb37699


----------



## SirRumpole (28 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll leave it to the article to explain but it's time to permanently close these markets of mass destruction which have unleashed what seems to be a completely avoidable tragedy affecting just about every country on earth.
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...d/news-story/e92d62f2188361bec9079f105eb37699




How extraordinarily savage and cruel, besides being a virus source.

Lets hope the appropriate people take action. I avoid as much food imported from China as I can. I hope others do the same.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (28 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> *Coronavirus: Prime Minister Boris Johnson tests positive*
> 
> *Mr Johnson said he developed mild symptoms over the past 24 hours, including a temperature and cough.*



I posted about Neil Ferguson going into self-isolation a few days ago. Ferguson is at Imperial College and a lead contributor to the scary stuff
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/news--wuhan-coronavirus/

I saw on his Wikipedia page that he'd been at meeting with BJ on same day as his diagnosis 17 or 18 March. It's no surprise Johnson has it


----------



## moXJO (28 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Why have you run out of toilet paper, sorry couldn't help myself.



It's an option.... Now.


----------



## jbocker (28 March 2020)

USA case numbers have skyrocketed. Maybe only Indonesia and India could catch up to them, in time albeit they are low on recorded numbers. I see some in India are belting people off the streets.
What is interesting are Germanys numbers in recorded cases (5th highest) is very high compared to current number of deaths. Particularly when compared to neighbour countries.
Are they just recording more with a greater testing regime and/or do they have better treatment facilities and availability of equipment preventing deaths.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (28 March 2020)

"It is no coincidence that some of the countries where the populations have understood best the mathematical and scientific reasons why governments are taking action have also been the most compliant with their directives and seem to be having the greatest success in slowing the spread of the virus. Singapore and South Korea, both long-known for their focus on mathematics in schools, come immediately to mind."

_- ain't that the truth_


----------



## Logique (28 March 2020)

*Loss of taste and smell could be crucial symptoms of coronavirus*
_By Lee BrownMarch 22, 2020 - New York Post: https://nypost.com/2020/03/22/loss-of-taste-and-smell-could-be-crucial-symptoms-of-coronavirus/

The loss of taste and smell could be crucial warning signs in “hidden carriers” of the novel coronavirus, experts have revealed.
The British Association of Otorhinolaryngology — which represents ear, nose and throat specialists — says the loss of senses often appears in patients who show none of the earlier known symptoms..._


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2020)

China has closed its borders to foreigners, lol they are worried someone might bring in the virus.


----------



## moXJO (28 March 2020)




----------



## dutchie (28 March 2020)

If we let China buy even one of our cheap assets then the government should be sh@t.


----------



## dutchie (28 March 2020)

In fact we should be suing them.


----------



## bellenuit (28 March 2020)

jbocker said:


> Are they just recording more with a greater testing regime and/or do they have better treatment facilities and availability of equipment preventing deaths.




I would think both. The fact that they can offer resources (physical and equipment) to help Italy would indicate that they are on top of things.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (28 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> . The fact that they can offer resources (physical and equipment) to help Italy would indicate that they are on top of things.



Only on top of trying to screw down 'Tied aid'.


> .According to This Site which provided a translation from Czech of This Czech Site
> QUOTE
> The Czech newspaper Irozhlas (I-Radio) reports that the bigshots in Beijing sent 150,000 coronavirus rapid testing kits to Czechia which return false results up to 80% of the time.





> Forgive the rough Google Translate results, but I don't speak Czech:
> "We checked them on Saturday at the University Hospital Ostrava, but unfortunately the error rate was quite high, so now we are waiting for the results of further testing across the country, they have never been tested positively because it works with antibodies," said Svrčinová....
> .



.
.

Original links are on here
https://boards.sharecafe.com.au/index.php?showtopic=6566&


----------



## qldfrog (28 March 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> "It is no coincidence that some of the countries where the populations have understood best the mathematical and scientific reasons why governments are taking action have also been the most compliant with their directives and seem to be having the greatest success in slowing the spread of the virus. Singapore and South Korea, both long-known for their focus on mathematics in schools, come immediately to mind."
> 
> _- ain't that the truth_



As long as the math heavy are in government.France has a very math intensive education, but the best end up in industry, building TGV, Airbus, Ariane,and armament..the MP are lawyers, teachers or politician for life with a high tradition of behaviour in a superiority affirmed way with the other classes


----------



## IFocus (28 March 2020)

This is very good

"Will governments prove their worth by managing this crisis to the best of their ability, or will they fail their citizens? I don’t know the answer, but I know a lot hangs on it; lives, livelihoods, and the future of liberal democracy."


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...lia-and-the-world-can-never-be-the-same-again


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 March 2020)

dutchie said:


> In fact we should be suing them.




China will pay a high price economically for this that's almost certain. Supply chain diversification basically kills their business model.

As such I'd be happy with appropriate measures to prevent a recurrence and permanent international surveillance thereof with the power to undertake corrective measures without further notice. 

That would be letting them off very lightly given the impact of this so they'd be wise to go along with it.


----------



## bellenuit (28 March 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Only on top of trying to screw down 'Tied aid'.




It was in relation to Germany providing aid, not China.


----------



## bellenuit (28 March 2020)

I don't know if this news outlet has any political affiliations or political agenda, but it certainly supports what I was saying a few days ago regarding possible complicity, willing or unwilling, between the WHO's Director General and China.


----------



## jbocker (28 March 2020)

I think the stats have just gone haywire.. ???? 403 deaths in Australia. Cannot be right. Take care with stats.
https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2020)

I see in the SMH, that Victoria,s chief medical officer has openly criticised the publics behaviour as large crowds flock to the beaches.
I cant understand why he or any Australian official expects any other outcome, the media every day say the governments are crap and dont know what they are talking about, why would people have any respect for them.
It is ludicrous to expect Australians to have respect for authority, there is respect for very little these days, the media has a lot to answer for IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2020)

I suppose one good thing to come out of this recession will be a lot of the media will struggle to pedal their wares.


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2020)

I read that there has been a big lift in caravan sales, so I suppose a lot of City people are going to rush off to the bush, hope they get checked before they go because country towns couldnt cope with a large out break.
But the new aussie attitude coming to the fore diligaf.


----------



## bellenuit (28 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I read that there has been a big lift in caravan sales, so I suppose a lot of City people are going to rush off to the bush, hope they get checked before they go because country towns couldnt cope with a large out break.
> But the new aussie attitude coming to the fore diligaf.




I would think that if you have a typical stand alone house in a city or large town and are not part of an apartment complex, you are far better staying put that heading off in a caravan or even doing as the peppers do.

You can access your needs by occasional visits to the supermarket. Just take all the advised precautions. Beyond that just stay at home. Should you need medical assistance (COVID-19 or otherwise), medical facilities are close at hand. You are not going to have issues regarding inter- or intrastate travel restrictions. And in the case of caravaners, you are not going to be depleting the supplies of the small country towns.


----------



## Humid (28 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I see in the SMH, that Victoria,s chief medical officer has openly criticised the publics behaviour as large crowds flock to the beaches.
> I cant understand why he or any Australian official expects any other outcome, the media every day say the governments are crap and dont know what they are talking about, why would people have any respect for them.
> It is ludicrous to expect Australians to have respect for authority, there is respect for very little these days, the media has a lot to answer for IMO.




But the governments are crap they just look after their mates in big business to get a job at the end of it


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2020)

Humid said:


> But the governments are crap they just look after their mates in big business to get a job at the end of it



Absolutely and silly billy wasnt going to be any different, thats where you and I differ, you think one side is different to the other, in reality they are both the same with a different spin IMO.
So I will still pick the one I think will  do less damage to my kids, you will pick the same side regardless.
It doesnt mean Im right, it just means Im thinking about it.
Just my opinion and the law of averages says we will both be right sometimes.


----------



## Humid (28 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely and silly billy wasnt going to be any different, thats where you and I differ, you think one side is different to the other, in reality they are both the same with a different spin IMO.
> So I will still pick the one I think will  do less damage to my kids, you will pick the same side regardless.
> It doesnt mean Im right, it just means Im thinking about it.
> Just my opinion and the law of averages says we will both be right sometimes.




Looking at the snaking Centrelink lines through the streets which party do you think casualised the workforce 
Constantly attacking unions and job conditions beyond that I don’t give a rats


----------



## Humid (28 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely and silly billy wasnt going to be any different, thats where you and I differ, you think one side is different to the other, in reality they are both the same with a different spin IMO.
> So I will still pick the one I think will  do less damage to my kids, you will pick the same side regardless.
> It doesnt mean Im right, it just means Im thinking about it.
> Just my opinion and the law of averages says we will both be right sometimes.




Looking at the snaking Centrelink lines through the streets which party do you think casualised the workforce 
Constantly attacking unions and job conditions they had an RC into unions and banks 
Which ones were the crooks


----------



## Humid (28 March 2020)

The keyboard thing is spreading like a virus Homer


----------



## fiftyeight (28 March 2020)

Governments should be throwing money at 3Blue1Brown to help develop teaching aids for STEM.

He has nailed it again with this one


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2020)

Humid said:


> The keyboard thing is spreading like a virus Homer



Dont get too excited humid.
We could have already been in recession if silly billy had got in.
Not that it will make much difference at the end of the day.
Dont forget, during the Rudd, Gillard years it was peak 457 worker period.OMG was it, yes, well I never who would have thought.
Give me a break Humid, tell your fairytales to the fifo boys on the flight.
Howard introduced 457s in 1996 at the start of the mining boom, they peaked in 2012 why the f#$#
didnt Rudd or Gillard ramp up apprenticeships, well because they are full of it like some others.
But they roll the chestnut out before every election, talk about rope a dope.


----------



## Humid (28 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Dont get too excited humid.
> We could have already been in recession if silly billy had got in.
> Not that it will make much difference at the end of the day.
> Dont forget, during the Rudd, Gillard years it was peak 457 worker period.OMG was it, yes, well I never who would have thought.
> ...




Great post mate totally forget the casuals and flat rates that I’m talking about
And ramble on
Isn’t there restrictions on booze?


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Great post mate totally forget the casuals and flat rates that I’m talking about
> And ramble on
> Isn’t there restrictions on booze?



Just stick to your fairytales mate.
Romancing the rock apes and blinding them with your brilliance.


----------



## chrislp (29 March 2020)

I haven't read the whole thread yet but am I the only one thinking that ruining economies for potentially years or decades to come is the best solution to this problem? 

In my opinion the solution governments are creating to shutting down economies is way worse than the effects of this virus.

I can understand China being a communist country can do whatever they want but it seems all democratic counties are following the same path.

The liberal party currently seem like die hard labour. I'll be interested to see how they handle investment properties & rents. From what I've read the government has said everyone should share pain equally but unless they've already announced it politicians should cut their incomes by at least 70% if they're being genuine.

Anyway my 2 cents. It's all a bit depressing.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 March 2020)

chrislp said:


> In my opinion the solution governments are creating to shutting down economies is way worse than the effects of this virus.
> 
> I can understand China being a communist country can do whatever they want but it seems all democratic counties are following the same path.




I'll simply say that the communists understand how democracy works far, far better than democracies understand how communism works.


----------



## MrChow (29 March 2020)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_pandemic

Infection Rate:

1889: 20–60%
1918: 33% or >55%
1957: >17%
1968: >14%
2009: 11-22%

Waves of Infections:

1889: 4
1918: 3
1957: 2
1968: 2
2009: 2

So historical outcomes suggest a minimum 11% infection rate over 2 waves.  We would have to defy history to fulfill the current narrative of a few weeks effort and the economy's back to normal.


----------



## Humid (29 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Just stick to your fairytales mate.
> Romancing the rock apes and blinding them with your brilliance.




What do you reckon woolies and Coles are making without paying penalty rates at the moment?
Who took them away?


----------



## Knobby22 (29 March 2020)

Italy above 10,000 deaths total 
889 official  deaths  today.


----------



## wayneL (29 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Hate to give you the bad news but it's the alcohol that kills the virus.
> 
> It needs to be 70%+ alcohol to be effective. Whatever else it contains is really just to try and offset the damage the alcohol is doing to your skin etc but it's the strong alcohol that makes it effective.
> 
> So as long as it's 70%+ alcohol then it'll do the job.



Just an anecdote about alcohol (metho) on skin, I use it regularly to de-fat hooves if I need to use prosthetic material. I can't notice any real negative effect.

Yes it will nuke the sebum in the top layer of skin, but so does soap.

You can alway slap on some hand lotion if your skin is dry.


----------



## Logique (29 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I would think that if you have a typical stand alone house in a city or large town and are not part of an apartment complex, you are *far better staying put *that heading off in a caravan or even doing as the peppers do.
> You can access your needs by occasional visits to the supermarket. Just take all the advised precautions. Beyond that *just stay at home*. Should you need medical assistance (COVID-19 or otherwise), medical facilities are close at hand. You are not going to have issues regarding inter- or intrastate travel restrictions. And in the case of caravaners, you are not going to be *depleting the supplies of the small country towns*.



Yes good post Bellen. A lot of regional doctors can't even get surgical masks/gowns. And the supermarket shelves are already bare enough. At this point in the virus, small settlements don't need need the increased pressure from out-of-towners. Self isolate in your own patch people


----------



## rederob (29 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I don't know if this news outlet has any political affiliations or political agenda, but it certainly supports what I was saying a few days ago regarding possible complicity, willing or unwilling, between the WHO's Director General and China.



Why not provide real evidence rather than your unfounded views. The media organisation you quote from has a poor history of accuracy and is known for peddling fake news, for example


Bhushan, Sandeep (29 June 2019). "Book extract: Republic TV, age of fake news and promoters in Indian TV newsrooms". _National Herald_.
Patel, Jignesh (8 March 2019). "Zee News broadcasts old, unrelated satellite visuals as destroyed JEM camp in Balakot". _Alt News_.
Hafeez, Sarah (22 February 2018). "Zee News producer quits: Video we shot had no Pakistan Zindabad slogan". _The Indian Express_.
Yadav, Puneet (21 February 2020). "Are Newsrooms Run By Political Masters? Why Are Editors Compromising On Truth Telling?". _Outlook_.
Rampal, Nikhil (3 December 2018). "Zee News tweets doctored video of Navjot Sidhu's Rajasthan rally". _ThePrint_.
In an interview with the BBC a few days ago the US Secretary for Health confirmed his Department had been in direct contact with China's health authorities since January 3.  At that time the reproduction number R0 (used to measure the transmission potential of a disease) was unknown.  In fact the reason the virus was initially called the *novel *coronavirus was because *it was new and unknown*.
Yes, the Chinese suppressed public knowledge of COVID-19 until they knew what they were dealing with, and back then - and right now for that matter - many things about the virus remain unknown.


----------



## Logique (29 March 2020)

From Facebook:
_The COVID-19 crisis has rapidly transformed relations between the union movement and the Coalition.
Ewin Hannan brings you the inside story of the *odd-couple truce *between *Sally McManus and Christian Porter *to save jobs..The Australian - 28 March 2020_


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Why not provide real evidence rather than your unfounded views. The media organisation you quote from has a poor history of accuracy and is known for peddling fake news, for example
> 
> 
> Bhushan, Sandeep (29 June 2019). "Book extract: Republic TV, age of fake news and promoters in Indian TV newsrooms". _National Herald_.
> ...



WHO is up Chinas ass and the media has begun questioning WHO.


----------



## sptrawler (29 March 2020)

Humid said:


> What do you reckon woolies and Coles are making without paying penalty rates at the moment?
> Who took them away?



From memory I read that Woolies and Coles work under an eBay and they do pay the penalties, do you have any info to the contrary, or are you just guessing ?


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2020)




----------



## Joules MM1 (29 March 2020)

"..in a unique position to comment on what is going on..."


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2020)




----------



## DB008 (29 March 2020)

I'll try to put these in order....














​


----------



## Knobby22 (29 March 2020)

Thanks DB for the links.

Looked up Redisivar. Not that promising. If it works, good chance it doesn't, it will likely need to be given at the earliest stages of the disease and intravenously which is difficult.

So maybe a few billionaires might get treated in case it works a bit.

It's up to Australia who developed the technology to get the vaccine as fast as we can. They were searching for the cure for the common cold when Conav19 came along.

Been a few weeks of animal testing so getting there. I don't think there is anyone else close. She has a strong Scottish accent.


----------



## bellenuit (29 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Why not provide real evidence rather than your unfounded views.




Actually I did provide the same information on my post from several days back which was from different sources and did state that this new video was confirming a lot of what had been disclosed by the others sources. And the original sources I gave were just a sample of what I found within a few minutes searching and I ignored many others simply because they were unnecessary to prove what I was saying.

As to my views being unfounded, this is the summation I gave on what was said in the last post. Perhaps you could go though each and explain which are unfounded and why? It would be much easier to do that that trying to find fault in one of the sources (which I clearly stated was one I had not heard of before and was unaware of its background). And all that effort you put in to discredit that source was wasted, as your links did not address the issues I raised, just claims by others that it had posted hoax news on unrelated topics (what's new there).

This is from my last post on that subject and is a summation of what I had said in the previous few posts. Please say which are incorrect and why?

*1. The WHO general director, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, was seen by many as completely over the top in his praise for Xi and the actions of the CPP.

2. Xi and the CPP spoke out strongly against bans on international travel.

3. WHO decided against declaring a PHEIC, which meant there would be no calls for restrictions on travel in and out of China.

4. Xi and the CPP used the WHO declarations on international travel in their ostracisms of other countries imposing a ban.

5. The bans greatly slowed down the spread of the virus world wide, but complete isolation of China would have been better. Most early cases outside of China related directly to people travelling from China. *

As to the following from you:



> Yes, the Chinese suppressed public knowledge of COVID-19 until they knew what they were dealing with, and back then - and right now for that matter - many things about the virus remain unknown.




My issue is and I have stated it over and over again is that China was ostracising other countries for imposing travel bans on travel from China, while at the time as they were doing this, it was already established as a Corona virus and China was actively putting their own cities in total lockdown. Even without complete knowledge of the virus, caution alone would have been sufficient reason to impose such a ban

Nothing you have posted has explained why they were doing this. 

Since you have several times aggressively attacked my posts on this issue since first posted, perhaps you could put up or shut up in relation to the 5 points above and maybe offer an acceptable explanation for the last issue.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> WHO is up Chinas ass and the media has begun questioning WHO.



On the China aspect of this whole thing I’ll simply note that humanity has just been kicked firmly in the guts by a problem which, taking the “official” explanation as true, ultimately stems from the extremely poor treatment of animals.

So long as the West turns a blind eye to animal and human abuses in the pursuit of cheap consumer goods we’re all contributors to this disaster.

It’s time to enforce proper standards. If it’s not acceptable here then we shouldn’t accept it anywhere.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (29 March 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> On the China aspect ....



we've probably forgotten but, and if the info is correct as per the first graph (.... _deaths increasing [elsewhere] more rapidly than in China_)
https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest
that "China began its strict lockdowns after around *30 deaths*" - to which I would add 30 'acknowledged' deaths - which is a whole lot earlier than the rest of the world's response


----------



## rederob (29 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Nothing you have posted has explained why they were doing this.



China was of the view that the WHO advice relating to *unnecessary *travel and trade restrictions was adequate: "*Tedros has stressed that there is no reason to take unnecessary measures to interfere with international travel and trade.*"
The R0 infection rate at that time was not known, but China went above and beyond any measure ever taken to isolate Wuhan and its province from the rest of the world.  It's fine in hindsight to be critical of China, but a great deal of responsibility for the calamity facing us today lies at our own government's lethargy.
Australia did nothing at points of entry for almost 3 months after becoming aware of this virus, yet Korea did something in a matter of days.
Please read and try to understand the advice given by the WHO - which was based on the best information available to them at that time - rather than try to turn this into a conspiracy theory.


----------



## MovingAverage (29 March 2020)

MovingAverage said:


> Some in the know predicted this as far back as 2007...front page of a peer reviewed journal publication in a highly regarded academic journal.
> 
> View attachment 101684




https://www.smh.com.au/national/the...d-covid-19-into-a-killer-20200327-p54elo.html


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2020)

rederob said:


> China was of the view that the WHO advice relating to *unnecessary *travel and trade restrictions was adequate: "*Tedros has stressed that there is no reason to take unnecessary measures to interfere with international travel and trade.*"
> The R0 infection rate at that time was not known, but China went above and beyond any measure ever taken to isolate Wuhan and its province from the rest of the world.  It's fine in hindsight to be critical of China, but a great deal of responsibility for the calamity facing us today lies at our own government's lethargy.
> Australia did nothing at points of entry for almost 3 months after becoming aware of this virus, yet Korea did something in a matter of days.
> Please read and try to understand the advice given by the WHO - which was based on the best information available to them at that time - rather than try to turn this into a conspiracy theory.




I'd be praising Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan not bloody China. All those countries slowed it without the harsh treatment and lies China showed to it's own citizens.

The world is infected because they dropped the ball. CCP has a lot to answer for. Not the rest of the world. It was already spread before China alerted the world. China let out hundreds of thousands of people before they locked down. They knew as early as November that something was up.

WHO did not act in the best interests of the world. They were still pushing that it wasn't contagious in mid January.

And China is currently in a propaganda push to blame other countries for the outbreak.


----------



## bellenuit (29 March 2020)

rederob said:


> China was of the view that the WHO advice relating to *unnecessary *travel and trade restrictions was adequate: "*Tedros has stressed that there is no reason to take unnecessary measures to interfere with international travel and trade.*"
> The R0 infection rate at that time was not known, but China went above and beyond any measure ever taken to isolate Wuhan and its province from the rest of the world.  It's fine in hindsight to be critical of China, but a great deal of responsibility for the calamity facing us today lies at our own government's lethargy.
> Australia did nothing at points of entry for almost 3 months after becoming aware of this virus, yet Korea did something in a matter of days.
> Please read and try to understand the advice given by the WHO - which was based on the best information available to them at that time - rather than try to turn this into a conspiracy theory.




You have ignored the five points that you said were unfounded statements. Or have you conveniently forgotten them?

As to the above comment, who do you think WHO was getting its, what is now patently false, information from? 

And quit your conspiracy theory crap.  I said at the start it raised a question that should be looked into. And if you don’t think that it does you are extremely naive.


----------



## rederob (29 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> And quit your conspiracy theory crap.  I said at the start it raised a question that should be looked into. And if you don’t think that it does you are extremely naive.



It raises a question in *your *mind because you have created your own fantasies about what has actually happened.  
I don't live under your illusions.


----------



## Humid (29 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> From memory I read that Woolies and Coles work under an eBay and they do pay the penalties, do you have any info to the contrary, or are you just guessing ?




Your right but eba s expire


----------



## bellenuit (29 March 2020)

rederob said:


> It raises a question in *your *mind because you have created your own fantasies about what has actually happened.




Again failing to address any of the five points.

And if you think it is all an illusion in my mind, remember that the posts I made on the subject were from the *Washington Post* and *South China Morning Post*. 

But not just those. Below is a selection of articles from a diverse range of geographies and a diverse range of political opinions raising the same question that requires answering. One fails to see why you think this is a fantasy in my mind unless you have been cocooned from news sources for the last few months or perhaps you are a China Communist Party sycophant who doesn't want to know anything adverse about the country's leadership. 
*
The Guardian* sees the WHO's actions as questionable.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...he-limits-of-whos-health-diplomacy-with-china

*The coronavirus lays bare the limits of WHO's health diplomacy with China*

_Some of those most critical have parsed Xi’s meeting with Tedros – and Xi’s declared hope that the UN body would assess the “epidemic situation in an objective, just, calm and reasonable way” – as pressure from Beijing to ensure WHO would refrain from designating the epidemic a global health emergency to protect China’s economy.

Although that didn’t happen, the WHO’s advice – contrary to that of many governments – is that it still “advises against the application of any restrictions of international traffic based on the information currently available on this event”.

*And on this front some are pointing to a startling contradiction: how the UN body has praised the extreme internal travel restrictions in China while criticising other countries for implementing their own travel measures.*_

From *THE  HILL*

https://thehill.com/opinion/interna...chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic

*China and the WHO's chief: Hold them both accountable for pandemic*

_We believe the organization’s director-general, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, like China’s Xi Jinping, should be held accountable for recklessly managing this deadly pandemic. Tedros apparently turned a blind eye to what happened in Wuhan and the rest of China and, after meeting with Xi in January, has helped China to play down the severity, prevalence and scope of the COVID-19 outbreak.

From the outset, Tedros has defended China despite its gross mismanagement of the highly contagious disease. As the number of cases and the death toll soared, the WHO took months to declare the COVID-19 outbreak as a pandemic, even though it had met the criteria of transmission between people, high fatality rates and worldwide spread. 

When President Trump took a critical step to stop the coronavirus at U.S. borders by issuing a travel ban as early as Jan. 31, Tedros said widespread travel bans and restrictions were not needed to stop the outbreak and could “have the effect of increasing fear and stigma, with little public health benefit.” He warned that interfering with transportation and trade could harm efforts to address the crisis, and advised other countries not to follow the U.S. lead.  _

*From OPINDIA*

https://www.opindia.com/2020/03/tai...sation-who-coronavirus-human-to-human-spread/

*Taiwan wrote to WHO on 31st December asking about human-to-human spread*

_That Taiwan wrote to the WHO as early as 31st December and till the 14th January, the WHO was maintaining that Coronavirus does not spread human-to-human shows the *complicity* of WHO in letting China lie its way through unleashing a pandemic on the world._

Lots of more goodies in that article.


----------



## bellenuit (29 March 2020)

*Clampdown on foreign investments to prevent international raids on Australian assets amid coronavirus pandemic
*
_https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ctions-australian-assets-coronavirus/12101332_


----------



## moXJO (29 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *Clampdown on foreign investments to prevent international raids on Australian assets amid coronavirus pandemic
> *
> _https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ctions-australian-assets-coronavirus/12101332_



Good move. Glad they are actually on the ball.


----------



## rederob (30 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *Taiwan wrote to WHO on 31st December asking about human-to-human spread*



Did they?
Taiwan wrote to the WHO before they even knew about the virus, did they?
You are a classic conspiracy theory spreader who does not check facts.


----------



## moXJO (30 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Did they?
> Taiwan wrote to the WHO before they even knew about the virus, did they?
> You are a classic conspiracy theory spreader who does not check facts.



Speaking to reporters in Taipei, the island's Centres for Disease Control chief Chou Jih-haw said that it written to the WHO and China as early as Dec. 31, asking for information about the newly uncovered virus outbreak in China's Wuhan city, including whether there was human-to-human transmission.

"We asked them whether there's a possibility of human-to-human transmission. We indeed asked them and reminded them of the matter," Chou said. He said the WHO confirmed it had received the letter but did not respond to it.

Health Minister Chen Shih-chung, sitting next to Chou, said Taiwan had fortunately decided that same day to begin screening passengers flying in from Wuhan, and activated its emergency operations center on Jan. 2 - a move experts say allowed Taiwan to effectively control the early spread of the virus.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-questions-at-start-of-outbreak-idUSKBN21B160


----------



## MrChow (30 March 2020)

Biggest takeover I can remember related to current events is Canada Private Equity buying Healthscope. 

China ships over some urgently needed medical supplies to Wuhan and everyone gets paranoid.


----------



## bellenuit (30 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Did they?
> Taiwan wrote to the WHO before they even knew about the virus, did they?
> You are a classic conspiracy theory spreader who does not check facts.




Again failing to address any of the five points.

You know even though we have disagreed on a few things in the past and really very few, I have always thought your posts were well thought out and often very informative. I just can't understand what you are up to with this stubborn refusal to acknowledge what people are saying. Starting by implying I am stupid, but then taking it back when I showed you that I held the same opinion as you on the issue of China deliberately infecting its own people, to then accusing me several times of being factually incorrect in relation to the five points that I said summarised why many are saying questions should be asked. You said my five points were unfounded even though I quoted what was said and gave the sources. You then said "_It raises a question in *your *mind because you have created your own fantasies about what has actually happened_" and I added more sources from different geographic/political outlets that showed it was not a fantasy I created but something that many others were expressing (and I could add lots more, but haven't the inclination).

All this time you have refused to show why my five points are unfounded though given multiple opportunities to do so. Now I have become a classic conspiracy theory spreader who does not check facts. And to illustrate that you have picked on the Taiwan issue from my last post, but moXJO has saved me the bother of finding another source, by including the REUTERS item above.

You have been given the opportunity to put up or shut up in relation to why those five points are factually incorrect or unfounded and have failed to do so. If you want to redeem yourself, here are the five points one last time for you to individually refute, otherwise I am done with you.

*1. The WHO general director, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, was seen by many as completely over the top in his praise for Xi and the actions of the CPP.

2. Xi and the CPP spoke out strongly against bans on international travel.

3. WHO decided against declaring a PHEIC, which meant there would be no calls for restrictions on travel in and out of China.

4. Xi and the CPP used the WHO declarations on international travel in their ostracisms of other countries imposing a ban.

5. The bans greatly slowed down the spread of the virus world wide, but complete isolation of China would have been better. Most early cases outside of China related directly to people travelling from China.*


----------



## jbocker (30 March 2020)

*Coronavirus: Thai king self-isolates in Alpine hotel with harem of 20 women amid pandemic*
The end is nigh !
I sincerely hope they are ALL from the high risk 70+ age group.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/worl...men-amid-pandemic/ar-BB11RXgL?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## qldfrog (30 March 2020)

jbocker said:


> *Coronavirus: Thai king self-isolates in Alpine hotel with harem of 20 women amid pandemic*
> The end is nigh !
> I sincerely hope they are ALL from the high risk 70+ age group.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/worl...men-amid-pandemic/ar-BB11RXgL?ocid=spartanntp



I somehow suspect the 20 women  are not in the at risk age range


----------



## rederob (30 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Again failing to address any of the five points.



I don't give credence to poorly informed China bashing.
Here's some of the official advice from the WHO regarding what was *necessary *in respect of international travel:
*Advice for entry screening in countries/areas without transmission of the novel coronavirus 2019-nCoV*

Evidence shows that temperature screening to detect potential suspect cases at entry may miss travelers incubating the disease or travelers concealing fever during travel and may require substantial investments. However, during the current outbreak with the novel coronavirus 2019-nCoV, the majority of exported cases were detected through entry screening. The risk of importation of the disease may be reduced if temperature screening at entry is associated with early detection of symptomatic passengers and their referral for medical follow up.
Temperature screening should always be accompanied by dissemination of risk communication messages at points of entry. This can be done through posters, leaflets, electronic bulletin, etc, aiming at raising awareness among travelers about signs and symptoms of the disease, and encouragement of health care seeking behavior, including when to seek medical care, and report of their travel history.
Counties implementing temperature screening are encouraged to establish proper mechanism for data collection and analysis, e.g .numbers of travelers screened and confirmed cases out of screened passengers, and method of screening. In implementing entry screening, countries should take into account national policies and capacity.
Public health authorities should reinforce collaboration with airlines operators for case management on board aircraft and reporting, should a traveler with respiratory disease symptoms is detected, in accordance with the IATA guidance for cabin crew to manage suspected communicable disease on board an aircraft.
Previous advice with regards to procedures for a sick traveller detected on board a plane and requirements for IHR capacities at points of entry remains unchanged (see WHO Advice published on 10 January 2020).​
Where are your media quotes about what other nations were doing to comply with the WHO's recommendations?
You points smack of the xenophobia that led to Chinese been shunned in our communities and their businesses being the first to hit the wall.
The WHO outlined what they saw as *necessary *and very few countries acted on it.
Why is that not important?
As late as a few weeks ago Australia had done nothing at points of entry, and as late as Friday we stuffed up handling a large number of doctors who caught a private flight back to Sydney.
What Australia and the USA did for months was rely on a ham-fisted shortcut in selectively restricting travel from China and other countries *without *implementing other port of entry health initiatives and controls.  This has been most apparent with cruise ship passenger mishandling.
What your bias has also overlooked is that that some of the early spread to other countries preceded knowledge of COVID-19's asymptomatic veracity. This article explains the significance of that omission.
I can see from some of your quotes that you read from rather unscrupulous media, so I am not going to waste any more time addressing what you have peddled.


----------



## Humid (30 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I somehow suspect the 20 women  are not in the at risk age range



The King and I +19


----------



## rederob (30 March 2020)

Humid said:


> The King and I +19



A man with 20/20 vision?


----------



## chiff (30 March 2020)

There is a virus cluster in the Barossa after two tour groups visited-one US tourists and one Swiss tourists tourists.Not much information on their movements from the eastern states,but some are referring to it as the Hillsong cluster.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (30 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I somehow suspect the 20 women  are not in the at risk age range



Every age is at risk

Besides, we should do better than clickbait


----------



## qldfrog (30 March 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Every age is at risk
> 
> Besides, we should do better than clickbait



True, was lighting up the mood, but did not even click....


----------



## basilio (30 March 2020)

*THE C DEVILS NUMBER*

The proof is in . Il Diablo is flaunting his power. At the critical point of the world descending into COVID madness his prints are all over the story.  

Add the 5 and 1 and voilia 
March 29th

*World
Coronavirus latest totals
Confirmed cases     665,616 *
*Deaths                    30,857 
*
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...081e5eda238d30#block-5e8027e78f081e5eda238d30


----------



## basilio (30 March 2020)

Here is the ultimate test of faith over science.
It is not every Church of course.

*Churchgoers all over world ignore physical distancing advice *
Services from Moscow to Rio go ahead as clerics disregard coronavirus risk


Coronavirus – latest updates
See all our coronavirus coverage
Andrew Roth in Moscow, Shaun Walker in Budapest and Dom Phillips in Rio de Janeiro

Mon 30 Mar 2020 03.39 AEDT   Last modified on Mon 30 Mar 2020 06.40 AEDT

    Russian Orthodox believers receive communion in Kazan Cathedral, St Petersburg, on Sunday. Photograph: Peter Kovalev/T
Shares
845




https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/29/church-goers-around-the-world-ignore-social-distance-advice


----------



## moXJO (30 March 2020)

rederob said:


> I don't give credence to poorly informed China bashing.
> 
> You points smack of the xenophobia that led to Chinese been shunned in our communities and their businesses being the first to hit the wall.



This is about the failure of the CCP. Their lies affect the Chinese people just as much.
The doctors and those fighting for freedom from oppression are in my mind hero's.
They are at physical risk from what they do and should be supported by any means necessary.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2020)

IMO the restrictions on society will be having a dramatic effect on the supply of illicit drugs, I would think and this must be causing great stress in those who are dependent on those drugs. So if you are out for any reason be aware and give people behaving strangely a wide berth, try not to engage with them and avoid eye contact. Be safe.
Just my opinion.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/aldi-shopper-coughs-in-workers-face-after-supermarket-rant-024022782.html
From the article:
_A video has captured the disturbing moment an irate Aldi shopper coughed on a supermarket worker’s face after going on a rant_.
_On March 21, Sydney shopper Cosmo Commisso filmed the moment an unidentified woman began accusing an Aldi supermarket employee of stealing “hundreds of dollars” from her purse.


Fortunately, the employee was quick to cover his face with a magazine.

“Mate, I just had f***ing hundreds in my hand, where is it?” The woman is heard saying in the video.

“Where the f**k is it_?”

As she approached the store’s exit she screamed: “You don’t know who I f***ing am.


----------



## wayneL (30 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> IMO the restrictions on society will be having a dramatic effect on the supply of illicit drugs, I would think and this must be causing great stress in those who are dependent on those drugs. So if you are out for any reason be aware and give people behaving strangely a wide berth, try not to engage with them and avoid eye contact. Be safe.
> Just my opinion.
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/aldi-shopper-coughs-in-workers-face-after-supermarket-rant-024022782.html
> From the article:
> ...



This and other mental health issues are gonna be huge I am guessing.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2020)

wayneL said:


> This and other mental health issues are gonna be huge I am guessing.



I just think it is something people who have not witnessed a person in a drug related psychotic episode, needs to be aware of, generally if you give them a wide berth, ignore them and don't make eye contact they just stick to themselves.
The last thing older people should be doing, is going over to comfort or engage with them IMO.
Ring the police, or call an ambulance, but keep a safe distance and do *not* stare at them. Just from personal experience.


----------



## wayneL (30 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I just think it is something people who have not witnessed a person in a drug related psychotic episode, needs to be aware of, generally if you give them a wide berth, ignore them and don't make eye contact they just stick to themselves.
> The last thing older people should be doing, is going over to comfort or engage with them IMO.



I've seen it, it is highly alarming and good advice, Homer.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2020)

Now the ABC's chief medical reporter looks like he may have the virus.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...r-norman-swan-tested-for-coronavirus/12102206


----------



## Joules MM1 (30 March 2020)

me not know either, so.....

 *First Squawk*‏ @*FirstSquawk*




CORONAVIRUS UPDATE: CHINESE SCIENTISTS HAVE DEVELOPED A NEW WEAPON TO COMBAT THE VIRUS. THEY SAY THEY HAVE FOUND A NANOMATERIAL THAT CAN ABSORB AND DEACTIVATE THE VIRUS WITH 96.5-99.9% EFFICIENCY

5:49 AM - 29 Mar 2020


----------



## bellenuit (30 March 2020)

rederob said:


> I don't give credence to poorly informed China bashing.




So when asked, you couldn't put up. You've got no substance, just a hollow man, who throws insults about. No point discussing this any further with you.


----------



## spooly74 (30 March 2020)

Anyone for some good news?


> Abstract We need an effective treatment to cure COVID-19 patients and to decrease the virus carriage duration. In 80 in-patients receiving a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin we noted a clinical improvement in all but one 86 year-old patient who died, and one 74 year-old patient still in intensive care unit. A rapid fall of nasopharyngeal viral load tested by qPCR was noted, with 83% negative at Day7, and 93% at Day8. *Virus cultures from patient respiratory samples were negative in 97.5% patients at Day5.* This allowed patients to rapidly de discharge from highly contagious wards with a mean length of stay of five days. We believe other teams should urgently evaluate this cost-effective therapeutic strategy, to both avoid the spread of the disease and treat patients as soon as possible before severe respiratory irreversible complications take hold.




https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/COVID-IHU-2-1.pdf

and this....

India approves the use hydroxychloroquine & France has reversed its ban.
https://www.mohfw.gov.in/pdf/Adviso...loroquinasprophylaxisforSARSCoV2infection.pdf

and more good news...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SesxgaPnpT6OfCYuaFSwXzDK4cDKMbivoALprcVFj48/mobilebasic


> Since last Thursday, my team has treated approximately 350 patients in Kiryas Joel and another 150 patients in other areas of New York with the above regimen.
> 
> Of this group and the information provided to me by affiliated medical teams, *we have had ZERO deaths, ZERO hospitalizations, and ZERO intubations*. In addition, I have not heard of any negative side effects other than approximately 10% of patients with temporary nausea and diarrhea.


----------



## Logique (30 March 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Anyone for some good news?
> https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/COVID-IHU-2-1.pdf
> and this....
> India approves the use hydroxychloroquine & France has reversed its ban.
> ...



That's very impressive at 97.5% effectiveness Spooly, with a large number of co-authors of that paper from Marseille - so there is real promise in this treatment:
_"..In 80 in-patients receiving a combination of *hydroxychloroquine* and *azithromycin*...
.... Virus cultures from patient respiratory samples were negative in* 97.5% patients at Day5.*.."_


----------



## rederob (30 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> So when asked, you couldn't put up. You've got no substance, just a hollow man, who throws insults about. No point discussing this any further with you.



I posted the WHO travel advisory, so you really need to be more credible as it clearly gives the lie to your many points.
I also suggested you read what the WHO actually wrote by linking to their site, but you have preferred to quote from the gutter.
When I pointed out one of your sources claimed that the WHO was contacted before they even were aware of the virus, you looked away.
I previously showed that NIOS who you quoted from was completely discredited as a source.  
Despite these instances you insist your points have merit.
As I said, you are just a conspiracy theorist here peddling nonsense.


----------



## IFocus (30 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> IMO the restrictions on society will be having a dramatic effect on the supply of illicit drugs,




My wife mention this when all the borders both overseas and interstate were closed which made me blink, what's the out come from that.

How ever freight is still moving so maybe supply is still available?


----------



## IFocus (30 March 2020)

SP talking to a local nurse apparently a couple of cases have been through our hospital.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2020)

IFocus said:


> My wife mention this when all the borders both overseas and interstate were closed which made me blink, what's the out come from that.
> 
> How ever freight is still moving so maybe supply is still available?



It is still going to be severely restricted, over the weekend in Mandurah CBD overnight, there was a lot of screaming and ranting going on from the foreshore area.
There is no pubs open and only the unfortunate ones hanging around.


----------



## spooly74 (30 March 2020)

Logique said:


> That's very impressive at 97.5% effectiveness Spooly, with a large number of co-authors of that paper from Marseille - so there is real promise in this treatment:
> _"..In 80 in-patients receiving a combination of *hydroxychloroquine* and *azithromycin*...
> .... Virus cultures from patient respiratory samples were negative in* 97.5% patients at Day5.*.."_




Looks really promising, Loqique
Here's more news from the Dr. who treated nearly 700 patients in New York from the 18th March, I think, in addition to the 350 noted above.


Perhaps this is the same results, but extremely positive.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2020)

A good article which again we have canvassed on ASF, the two options are get herd immunisation, or stop the outbreak in its tracks and hope a vaccine is found before it breaks out again. NZ has gone for number two option, but they are fortunate with the size and population fit, they will have to police their borders after the lockdown 100%. IMO

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/kiwis-will-face-new-normal-when-lockdown-ends-researcher


----------



## spooly74 (30 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> A good article which again we have canvassed on ASF, the two options are get herd immunisation, or stop the outbreak in its tracks and hope a vaccine is found before it breaks out again. NZ has gone for number two option, but they are fortunate with the size and population fit, they will have to police their borders after the lockdown 100%. IMO
> 
> https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/kiwis-will-face-new-normal-when-lockdown-ends-researcher



I think I'd prefer the former once we have a notable treatment to drop the death rate to almost nil. 
Although vaccine trials have actually already started in humans it's still going to be a year away imo.

If we can get the death rate under control and I hope (think) we'll start seeing this soon. Let the herd get it & keep the vulnerable isolated.


----------



## spooly74 (30 March 2020)

*FDA issues emergency authorization of anti-malaria drug for coronavirus care*


> The Food and Drug Administration on Sunday issued an emergency use authorization for hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, decades-old malaria drugs championed by President Donald Trump for coronavirus treatment despite scant evidence.
> 
> The agency allowed for the drugs to be “donated to the Strategic National Stockpile to be distributed and prescribed by doctors to hospitalized teen and adult patients with COVID-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible,” HHS said in a statement, announcing that Sandoz donated 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine to the stockpile and Bayer donated 1 million doses of chloroquine.



https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/29/fda-emergency-authorization-anti-malaria-drug-155095


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> So when asked, you couldn't put up. You've got no substance, just a hollow man, who throws insults about. No point discussing this any further with you.



If you are refering to rederob, everyone seems to reach that conclusion.


----------



## bellenuit (30 March 2020)

We seen this from other sources, but this is the take from The Guardian.

*Senior WHO adviser appears to dodge question on Taiwan's Covid-19 response

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...o-dodge-question-on-taiwans-covid-19-response*


----------



## moXJO (30 March 2020)

rederob said:


> When I pointed out one of your sources claimed that the WHO was contacted before they even were aware of the virus, you looked away.
> I previously showed that NIOS who you quoted from was completely discredited as a source.
> Despite these instances you insist your points have merit.
> As I said, you are just a conspiracy theorist here peddling nonsense.



Robbie must have blocked me. He must of been sick of being wrong


----------



## bellenuit (30 March 2020)

moXJO said:


> Robbie must have blocked me. He must of been sick of being wrong




I'll repost your response so that those who wish to be informed can be informed.

_Speaking to reporters in Taipei, the island's Centres for Disease Control chief Chou Jih-haw said that it written to the WHO and China as early as Dec. 31, asking for information about the newly uncovered virus outbreak in China's Wuhan city, including whether there was human-to-human transmission.

"We asked them whether there's a possibility of human-to-human transmission. We indeed asked them and reminded them of the matter," Chou said. He said the WHO confirmed it had received the letter but did not respond to it.

Health Minister Chen Shih-chung, sitting next to Chou, said Taiwan had fortunately decided that same day to begin screening passengers flying in from Wuhan, and activated its emergency operations center on Jan. 2 - a move experts say allowed Taiwan to effectively control the early spread of the virus._

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-questions-at-start-of-outbreak-idUSKBN21B160


----------



## IFocus (30 March 2020)

spooly74 said:


> *FDA issues emergency authorization of anti-malaria drug for coronavirus care*
> 
> https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/29/fda-emergency-authorization-anti-malaria-drug-155095




Hopefully a game changer another would be to be able to test everyone and then isolation infected cases, do this every few days for several weeks then you could get those not infected back to work etc and keep those vulnerable isolated.


----------



## Logique (30 March 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Looks really promising, Loqique
> Here's more news from the Dr. who treated nearly 700 patients in New York from the 18th March, I think, in addition to the 350 noted above...[Youtube]..Perhaps this is the same results, but extremely positive.



Good stuff. It's worth repeating his successful three drug treatment for the record:

_"...*My* [Dr Zelenko] *out-patient treatment regimen is as follows*:
Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SesxgaPnpT6OfCYuaFSwXzDK4cDKMbivoALprcVFj48/mobilebasic

1.  Hydroxychloroquine 200mg twice a day for 5 days

2.  Azithromycin 500mg once a day for 5 days

3.  Zinc sulfate 220mg once a day for 5 days

 ...rationale...Since last Thursday, my team has treated approximately *350 patients* in Kiryas Joel and *another 150 patients* in other areas of New York with the above regimen.

 Of this group and the information provided to me by affiliated medical teams, we have had *ZERO deaths*, ZERO hospitalizations, and ZERO intubations.  In addition, I have not heard of any negative side effects other than approximately 10% of patients with temporary nausea and diarrhea.

March 23, 2020
Dr. Vladimir (Zev) Zelenko
Board Certified Family Practitioner
501 Rt 208, Monroe, NY 10950..."_


----------



## Knobby22 (30 March 2020)

A GP in USA. Don't believe it.


----------



## qldfrog (30 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> So when asked, you couldn't put up. You've got no substance, just a hollow man, who throws insults about. No point discussing this any further with you.



Took you a long time to reach that point Bellenuit, I can not repeat how useful the ignore button is for individuals like that


----------



## qldfrog (30 March 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> A GP in USA. Don't believe it.



@Knobby22 this is similar treatment and results (very good) done by the Marseille scientist I mentionned a while back;
I think we are onto something for a treatment
I try to find an English article https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...h-world/chloroquine-coronavirus/#.XoGzanJS-Uk
The french scientist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Raoult
Coronavirus and new infections are his domain, no one can contest is curriculum.
As explained a while back, sadly, he is in a war against a Parisian elite clan who happen to be headed by the husband of the (past I think now) french Health minister


----------



## Logique (30 March 2020)

Are any of the three drugs Dr Zelenko reports - unavailable or costly in Australia? I doubt it:
- Hydroxychloroquine 200mg
- Azithromycin 500mg
- Zinc sulfate 220mg
Am I wrong, wouldn't the next step be - to conduct our own domestic trials of Dr Zelenko's New Jersey results?


----------



## moXJO (30 March 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Took you a long time to reach that point Bellenuit, I can not repeat how useful the ignore button is for individuals like that



How annoying must I be for Robbie to block me.


----------



## spooly74 (30 March 2020)

Logique said:


> Are any of the three drugs Dr Zelenko reports - unavailable or costly in Australia? I doubt it:
> - Hydroxychloroquine 200mg
> - Azithromycin 500mg
> - Zinc sulfate 220mg
> Am I wrong, wouldn't the next step be - to conduct our own domestic trials of Dr Zelenko's New Jersey results?



The FDA have only granted emergency powers so they’ll be watching this closely in controlled trials.
They’d then need to approve it’s widespread use.
Think we have 2 trials going here.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 March 2020)

I will simply say that if this is true then it would seem that the only option is for the rest of the world to take a far more aggressive stance against China:

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...9/news-story/104a81601ff7b94fec6dae3e158ad0a1



> “The markets have gone back to operating in exactly the same way as they did before coronavirus,” a correspondent to visited the market told the publication.
> 
> “The only difference is that security guards try to stop anyone taking pictures




If China's government wants to fuel anti-China sentiment then this is a sure fire way to do it.

Shut these ******* things down without delay.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2020)

W.A seems to be getting on top of the outbreak, except for all the new cases inherited from that cruise ship.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...rd-boarder-closure-to-eastern-states/12101852
From the article:
_Western Australia will bring in an "unprecedented" hard border closure and use police drones to help enforce strict new public gathering rules to help contain the coronavirus outbreak, the state's Premier announced today.
The measures came as the number of new cases of COVID-19 reported in the state continued to fall, a result Premier Mark McGowan labelled "remarkable".

Mr McGowan said the impending border closure option was more palatable than enforcing further punishing shutdowns on WA businesses.

"Instead of going down the path of forcing more businesses to shut, we've decided to go down the path of harder border closures," he said.

"The health advice is that given the situation over east, especially in New South Wales, a harder border closure is supported to prevent the importation of the virus from other states.
He said the move was designed to prevent Western Australia having to take a more extreme position in terms of shutdowns that may happen in other states.

"I am reluctant to introduce additional or severe measures that would see more businesses forced to close and more jobs lost," Mr McGowan said.

"Striking this balance is not easy … dealing with this crisis is not just about saving lives, it's also about saving livelihoods.
WA Chief Health Officer Andrew Robertson said over the past few days — excluding the confirmed cases on the Artania cruise ship — the number of new cases in WA had dropped_.

The Premier of W.A said, while the travel ban may not be implemented immediately, he wanted to make it clear that people from the eastern states should not try to come to WA.

"There is a clear message to any interstater thinking about coming to Western Australia — don't come, we don't want you here," he said.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2020)

A NSW MP has a bit of a fan club going for Xi Jinping, I guess that's multi cultural Australia today.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw...a-s-coronavirus-response-20200330-p54fbg.html


----------



## rederob (31 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> We seen this from other sources, but this is the take from The Guardian.
> 
> *Senior WHO adviser appears to dodge question on Taiwan's Covid-19 response
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...o-dodge-question-on-taiwans-covid-19-response*



Rather than continue to muck rake, arm yourself with the facts.
How did Taiwan manage to write to the WHO on 31 December about COVID-19 when that information had only been sent to the WHO's regional office in China at that stage?
In the improbable event they had knowledge, somehow, then the questions they posed had already been answered.  This was available on 31 December to anyone who wanted to know, and makes a mockery of the claims and questions from Taiwan.
Taiwan gets everything that the WHO sends out to all member nations and seems to be upset that because most nations of the world (including Australia and the USA) adopt a one China policy (which incorporates Taiwan) it's excellent efforts are being overlooked.


----------



## basilio (31 March 2020)

The ABC has an analysis on how Singapore prepared for an epidemic and to date reasonably controlled it .

 Print  Email  Facebook  Twitter  More
*These five strategies have helped Singapore fight off the coronavirus outbreak. Can they keep it at bay?*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-31/coronavirus-singapore-how-it-fought-the-virus/12100072


----------



## basilio (31 March 2020)

This adds some excellent analysis of the risks to older people of being infected.
Also looks at why CORVID 19 is so easily transmitted
 
*New coronavirus study reveals increased risks from middle age *
First comprehensive study of deaths and hospitalisations in mainland China shows just how much of a factor age is
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...study-reveals-increased-risks-from-middle-age


----------



## basilio (31 March 2020)

Still  ongoing issues in China from Asymptomatic carriers.  Still wrestling with the problem. Australia needs to take this on board

* Chinese citizens fear catching coronavirus from 'silent' carriers *
Asymptomatic people may be infecting others despite officials saying risk of this is low
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ear-catching-coronavirus-from-silent-carriers


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2020)

W.A is taking things seriously, and proposing serious penalties for people who don't take it seriously.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...r-jail-terms-and-electronic-tracking/12104286
From the article:
A crackdown on people who cough or spit at police officers or medical staff in Western Australia could see offenders jailed for up to 10 years, under legislation to go before State Parliament this week.
The measure is part of several coronavirus-related provisions the Government wants debated urgently in State Parliament this week, including a proposal to use tracking bracelets on people who do not self-isolate.

It follows reports of people coughing or spitting at doctors, nurses and police officers while claiming to have COVID-19.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2020)

I suppose now the flow of people into the Country and general movement around the Country has slowed, test kits can be deployed more accurately to areas of outbreaks, which in turn should give a better idea of the severity of the spread.
Just a thought.


----------



## moXJO (31 March 2020)

rederob said:


> Rather than continue to muck rake, arm yourself with the facts.
> How did Taiwan manage to write to the WHO on 31 December about COVID-19 when that information had only been sent to the WHO's regional office in China at that stage?
> In the improbable event they had knowledge, somehow, then the questions they posed had already been answered.  This was available on 31 December to anyone who wanted to know, and makes a mockery of the claims and questions from Taiwan.
> Taiwan gets everything that the WHO sends out to all member nations and seems to be upset that because most nations of the world (including Australia and the USA) adopt a one China policy (which incorporates Taiwan) it's excellent efforts are being overlooked.



Where's your proof?
You have nothing. WHO denied Taiwan even existed as a separate entity.

Speaking to reporters in Taipei, the island's Centres for Disease Control chief Chou Jih-haw said that it written to the WHO and China as early as Dec 31, asking for information about the newly uncovered virus outbreak in China's Wuhan province, including whether there was human-to-human transmission.

"We asked them whether there's a possibility of human-to-human transmission. We indeed asked them and reminded them of the matter," Chou said. *He said the WHO confirmed it had received the letter but did not respond to it.
The WHO, in a statement to Reuters, did not directly address the issue of Taiwan being ignored, but said its office in China was informed of the "pneumonia of unknown cause" on Dec 31.*
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...d19-taiwan-world-health-organization-12571150

Ahhh "Robbie Facts".


On Dec. 31, the same day China notified the World Health Organization that it had several cases of an unknown pneumonia, Taiwan’s Centers for Disease Control immediately ordered inspections of passengers arriving on flights from Wuhan.

And despite poor relations with Beijing, Taiwan asked and received permission to send a team of experts to the mainland on a fact-finding mission Jan. 12.

“They didn’t let us see what they didn’t want us to see, but our experts sensed the situation was not optimistic,” government spokesperson Kolas Yotaka told NBC News.

Shortly after the team returned, Taiwan began requiring hospitals to test for and report cases. That helped the government identify those infected, trace their contacts and isolate everyone involved, preventing the virus from spreading to the community.


All this happened long before Taiwan confirmed its first case Jan. 21 and the rest of the world became alarmed.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-taiwan-can-teach-world-fighting-coronavirus-n1153826


----------



## moXJO (31 March 2020)

Taiwan did it better without being oppressive dicks.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2020)

I bet the AMA aren't happy about this door being opened, they have kept a tight lock on it, since Adam was a boy.

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/6704607/nsw-pharmacy-changes-to-help-tackle-virus/?cs=7
From the article:
NSW pharmacists can now dispense medicines without a prescription and operate 24/7 under new measures introduced to help combat the spread of coronavirus.

Health Minister Brad Hazzard says a special authority has been granted to pharmacists to help people who can't access their GP.


----------



## moXJO (31 March 2020)

Most doctors are video call round here.


----------



## IFocus (31 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I suppose now the flow of people into the Country and general movement around the Country has slowed, test kits can be deployed more accurately to areas of outbreaks, which in turn should give a better idea of the severity of the spread.
> Just a thought.





Wife just back from local Woolies very low numbers shelves mostly stocked


----------



## spooly74 (31 March 2020)

Another French Trial Update re: hydroxychloroquine
1291 treated with 1 death
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/covid-19/


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2020)

W.A numbers still falling, not out of the woods, but worst case scenario seems to be diminishing. The problem will be keeping new infections out of the State, while it is still active over East. Still, even if we tighten the noose State by State, eventually we will stop it IMO.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...n-western-australia-increase-by-nine/12105922

Initially we were talking about running out of ICU beds by 8th April, so it is certainly looking better than that, thankfully.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I suppose now the flow of people into the Country and general movement around the Country has slowed, test kits can be deployed more accurately to areas of outbreaks, which in turn should give a better idea of the severity of the spread.
> Just a thought.




Obviously the testing has taken a step down from international, to national movement.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ates-covid-19-australia-restrictions/12104716
From the article:
_A plane from Sydney to Adelaide has been turned back in mid-air after a cluster of coronavirus cases among Qantas baggage handlers prompted health officials to recommend travellers wipe down their bags and suitcases.

Australia now has more than 4,500 cases of COVID-19 but the rate at which cases are increasing has fallen_.


----------



## Knobby22 (31 March 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Another French Trial Update re: hydroxychloroquine
> 1291 treated with 1 death
> https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/covid-19/



Bit more detail would be good. Interesting though.


----------



## bellenuit (31 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> W.A numbers still falling, not out of the woods, but worst case scenario seems to be diminishing. The problem will be keeping new infections out of the State, while it is still active over East. Still, even if we tighten the noose State by State, eventually we will stop it IMO.
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...n-western-australia-increase-by-nine/12105922
> 
> Initially we were talking about running out of ICU beds by 8th April, so it is certainly looking better than that, thankfully.




One big advantage of the states more or less quarantining from each other is that if a particular state, like WA say, manages to get things under control, they can start to remove the restrictions on business and get many back to work, benefiting all of Australia.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> One big advantage of the states more or less quarantining from each other is that if a particular state, like WA say, manages to get things under control, they can start to remove the restrictions on business and get many back to work, benefiting all of Australia.



The other thing is the resources, like test kits , ventilators, medical equipment, can then be focused where the main problems are.
It becomes a win/win situation, it does look as though the combined efforts Federal and State are producing positive results.
These are trying times for everyone, I know with the grand kids home 24/7, it is amazing how many things they can break and expect grandad to fix.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2020)

So much for the press lambasting the Government, for not following New Zealand and locking down.
It sounds to me as the one size fits all, isn't the correct method, obviously New Zealand's action plan needed to be different to ours.
This probably explains why a central think tank, that oversees the steps to be taken is imperative and also why the media should really zip it. IMO
It is opinion pieces that keep telling us what to do, but why do the media have to give them front page(web) space?
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...lia-s-confidential-plans-20200331-p54fmv.html
From the article:

_In a worst-case scenario - if not enough had been done to slow the virus - more than two-thirds of New Zealand’s population would get sick, 146,000 would be hospitalised, 36,600 would need an ICU bed and 27,600 people would die.

The six declassified modelling reports released on Tuesday offer clues about Australia’s simulated scenarios, with the modellers in New Zealand thanking their Australian counterparts for providing their “valuable work" and including a reference to one of the federal government's key advisers_.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (31 March 2020)

bellenuit said:


> One big advantage of the states more or less quarantining from each other is that if a particular state manages to get things under control,...



states each have a Health Department. A logical and probably only point of control.


----------



## Logique (1 April 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Another French Trial Update re: hydroxychloroquine
> 1291 treated with 1 death
> https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/covid-19/



There was some press on an Australian trial last night. It will target >2,000 patients with Covid symptoms, and starts _next week_. A rep said they should be able to report results "fairly quickly".

Hydroxychloroquine was described as an "arthritis medicine". Melbourne businessman Anthony Pratt has donated a $million dollars towards this study


----------



## Logique (1 April 2020)

Have just seen this. Info about three Australian trials. I'll probably get a kicking from the site 'Commissars' for quoting from this source, too bad:

_VIRUS HOPE:* BIG TEST OF DRUGS ON AUSTRALIAN PATIENTS*
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/...s/news-story/e3dda0727e7b1f06af81bd99ab041ba8
Herald Sun - April 1, 2020 

There are *now three Australian trials* of treatments for the CIVID-19 coronavirus. One will start on Monday, and eventually involve 2400 people sick enough to go to hospital...

...The third trial is by the Murdoch Children’s Research Institute. This will test an anti-tuberculosis drug, BCG , to see if it works as a vaccine against COVID-19. This will be the largest,involving 4000 healthcare workers around Australia._


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> W.A numbers still falling, not out of the woods, but worst case scenario seems to be diminishing. The problem will be keeping new infections out of the State, while it is still active over East. Still, even if we tighten the noose State by State, eventually we will stop it IMO.
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...n-western-australia-increase-by-nine/12105922
> 
> Initially we were talking about running out of ICU beds by 8th April, so it is certainly looking better than that, thankfully.



Todays news report explains the problem W.A has, it is worth a read and explains what is happening regarding controlling the spread.
It looks as though we are still going for herd immunity at a controlled rate, so the elderly will have to be extremely carefull for a long time to come.
Just my opinion.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...ll-as-wa-begins-to-flatten-the-curve/12107326
From the article:
_Mr Cook said the numbers were encouraging, but he cautioned against complacency.

He said the welcome figures showed the state was merely "putting the brakes on" so the health system could prepare for the inevitable arrival of more widespread COVID-19 infections.

He was resolute that WA could not avoid coronavirus and that he remained committed to the national goal of "flattening the curve".

The aim of this is not to stop transmission of the virus altogether, but to slow it to a manageable level so hospitals do not become overwhelmed.

"What we are trying to do is manage the spread of the disease, so it doesn't overwhelm our health system as you've seen in New York and Italy," Mr Cook said._
*WA can't be a COVID-free island*
_Despite the low number of new cases, a New Zealand-style elimination approach towards the virus is not on the table for WA.

Such an approach could see WA eradicate the virus locally but then be forced to keep the state's borders locked down until the nation rode out the pandemic.

"Ultimately Western Australia cannot become an island in a global community which has COVID-19," Mr Cook said.
_
_EMBED: Coronavirus cases: WA vs national numbers_
_

A vaccine is considered too distant in the future and the approach could see Western Australia forced to maintain "draconian" public health measures for much longer than the rest of the nation.

It could lead to a scenario where, before a vaccine becomes available, enough people have been infected and then recovered from the virus in the eastern states for effective herd immunity.

As the eastern states resumed normal functioning, WA would be forced to maintain border controls and locked-down conditions as West Australians would still be vulnerable to the virus due to lack of exposure.

It is considered states such as NSW and Victoria have well passed the point where eliminating the virus would be achievable, and despite the single digit growth rate it is thought WA has too.
If WA maintained just nine new cases each day, in the long term, "the curve" would likely become too flat and the length of time the state would need to spend under tough restrictions would be untenable.

Dr Robertson did not rule out the possibility some of those restrictions would need to be relaxed in coming months if WA maintained very low rates of new cases.
Dr Robertson said whether restrictions might need to be increased or eased would not become clear until more testing had been conducted, as it depended entirely on how much previously undetected community transmission was taking place in WA.

"Then we will provide advice as to what measures we might be able to roll back to a degree, or, if things deteriorate, whether further measures are required," he said.

"But we also have to be very cognisant that we are part of Australia and that we have to work nationally to ensure that we can minimise the spread for all Australians right across the country."
_
*Still prepping for battle*
_Extremely low rates may not be perfect in the long term for building immunity among the community, but for the time being it is a good problem for WA to have.
Keeping the rates low for now is essentially buying time for the State Government until it can ensure the health system is "battle ready" for coronavirus.

"When the storm hits, we'll be ready," Mr Cook said.

Yesterday he detailed more than $15 million worth of additional medical equipment the State Government has ordered, which included 301 ventilators, 201 humidifiers and 200 ICU beds_.


----------



## jbocker (1 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Todays news report explains the problem W.A has, it is worth a read and explains what is happening regarding controlling the spread.
> It looks as though we are still going for herd immunity at a controlled rate, so the elderly will have to be extremely carefull for a long time to come.
> Just my opinion.
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...ll-as-wa-begins-to-flatten-the-curve/12107326
> ...



Well they all say WA means Wait Awhile. I am happy to have that till we have a better way out of all this. I would be happy to see that we control the numbers in hospitalisations and increase the rate of survival and recovery. I think to add to the answer is EARLY detection and immediate isolation, this requires a massive uplift in detection and then testing. Get those heat guns (Temperature detectors) out everywhere as we start slowly to filter out from lockdown and then start working and living normally.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2020)

jbocker said:


> Well they all say WA means Wait Awhile. I am happy to have that till we have a better way out of all this. I would be happy to see that we control the numbers in hospitalisations and increase the rate of survival and recovery. I think to add to the answer is EARLY detection and immediate isolation, this requires a massive uplift in detection and then testing. Get those heat guns (Temperature detectors) out everywhere as we start slowly to filter out from lockdown and then start working and living normally.



We will just have to take care jbocker, I will have to tell my mother and the MIL to be vigilant, even if they lift some restrictions, this obviously isn't going away in a hurry. IMO


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 April 2020)

I'll let the numbers do the talking but I question the inconsistencies here:

Using data from the following site and looking at the % of cases recovered there's a large gap. This has been the case for some time now such that an error in data entry seems an unlikely explanation.

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Victoria = 31.7%
WA = 11.3%
Tasmania = 7.2%
ACT = 3.8%
SA = 1.8%
Queensland = 1.1%
NSW = 0.2%

For the smaller states it could possibly be explained by differences in age profile, sample size and so on but it's rather hard to explain the difference between Victoria and NSW unless there's either vastly superior medical treatment in Victoria or a major difference in the way patients are being tested and/or the data reported.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2020)

W.A now has a new problem, the cruise ship that disembarked passengers, now wont leave port.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...nia-refusing-to-leave-fremantle-port/12110206


----------



## spooly74 (1 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll let the numbers do the talking but I question the inconsistencies here:
> 
> Using data from the following site and looking at the % of cases recovered there's a large gap. This has been the case for some time now such that an error in data entry seems an unlikely explanation.
> 
> ...



Noticed that, too.
Thought it might have only been patients admitted to ICU, who, after recovery might get another test.

A young person testing positive would be told to go home and rest/isolate. May never be tested again.
The main focus now is on testing probable cases but I've heard there's a shortage of the reagent needed.

SA had only 6 new cases on Monday but they only tested 500 people, usually around the 1000-1200 mark, I think.


----------



## qldfrog (1 April 2020)

There was a note about the BCG vaccine
According to the reports of french team involved, this would not be a virus vaccine but it seems that following injection of this vaccine inc repeat shot, the body raises it guards and more effectively contract the virus quickly potentially avoiding infection
The best application would be a BCG shot for nurses etc to ensure they stay operational.it is NOT a virus vaccine
But a nice advance, as well as the antimalarial drug


----------



## basilio (1 April 2020)

Was looking at the John  Hopkins Uni dashboard outlining  the  spread of the virus.  US figures were stark

Feb  1st ............................                       8 cases
Feb 15th........................ .                    13 cases
March 1  ........................                     74 cases
March 15th...................              3500 cases
*March 31st..................     188,200 cases    (4076 deaths )

If this sort of growth continues one can see an absolute disaster in the US. 
*
If this is an indication of what can happen in places like India,  African countries  where ever then holy hell.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html


----------



## basilio (1 April 2020)

There are some excellent graphs on The Guardian analysis of the COVID 19 crisis. Check the ones at the end of the story.

* Is Australia flattening the coronavirus curve? Look at the charts  *
Some experts express qualified optimism that the country is seeing positive statistics
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ing-the-coronavirus-curve-look-at-the-charts-


----------



## jbocker (1 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> W.A now has a new problem, the cruise ship that disembarked passengers, now wont leave port.



Wont return to Europe, could you blame them? … and the weather is much more pleasant here too.


----------



## rederob (1 April 2020)

jbocker said:


> Wont return to Europe, could you blame them? … and the weather is much more pleasant here too.



The reason is to do with the health and safety of those on board.  If they get sick on the return leg then their medivac arrangements would be contingent on some nation's navy having helicopters aboard.  Germany is not very close to Perth!
If they get sick off the coast it's quick trip to shore.


----------



## jbocker (1 April 2020)

rederob said:


> The reason is to do with the health and safety of those on board.  If they get sick on the return leg then their medivac arrangements would be contingent on some nation's navy having helicopters aboard.  Germany is not very close to Perth!
> If they get sick off the coast it's quick trip to shore.



Remotest city in the world, it is loooong way before you get to another port. Maybe they are waiting for their Covid-19 passengers onshore to recover and return aboard and then go home. They apparently are saying that the remaining 450 crew are not feeling well too. But I hear that messages from them have been difficult, changing and unclear. Premiere says communication has been extremely difficult.
We had the health officials on board early and the Commonwealth are dealing with the sick in a separate hospital/facility.


----------



## jbocker (1 April 2020)

basilio said:


> Was looking at the John  Hopkins Uni dashboard outlining  the  spread of the virus.  US figures were stark
> 
> Feb  1st ............................                       8 cases
> Feb 15th........................ .                    13 cases
> ...



I have been watching Brazil, where leader Bolsanaro apparently has been 'Trump'eting about economy  also. Till very recently they had been jostling in position with us, Australia in case numbers, but today are starting to pull away significantly. With a population of 200+Million, it is going to get horrendous. Bolsanaro apparently was very flippant about the deaths.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (1 April 2020)

Countries with large *informal economies *are likely to be in big trouble.  Under-resourced, living essentially from day to day, resistant to authorities.

An unfurling likely disaster


----------



## Joules MM1 (1 April 2020)

good research


----------



## sptrawler (2 April 2020)

I find it funny that the media goes on about mixed messages from the Government, regarding the corona virus, then I see these to headlines on the Herald Sun web page.:
"Parliament recalled amid warning vaccine could take 18 months"
"Aussie health workers given covid-19 vaccine"
The articles are behind a pay wall and probably explain the issues, but the headlines certainly cause confusion.


----------



## qldfrog (2 April 2020)

About headline and fake news from their ABC

NSW coronavirus lockdown to be lifted in three months, police reveal   
18 MIN AGO
Then you read
NSW Police Commissioner Mick Fuller said the new powers which permit police to fine people for disobeying isolation orders will last for 90 days.

"People will have got the message by then, hopefully," he said.


----------



## qldfrog (2 April 2020)

To ABC credit seems to have been corrected now same link
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020...-stabilise-as-premier-praises-people/12112182


----------



## dutchie (2 April 2020)

Why isn't cricket a great sport in China? 

They keep eating the bats.


----------



## basilio (2 April 2020)

Most people here would have seen the John Hopkins University COVID 19 website.  Outstanding analysis of how the virus is tracking across the world.  I used it yesterday as a reference for my post on the speed of the increase in US cases.

I checked it again this morning and for some reason figures for the US weren't shown. ??
Was this just my computer ?
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Just rechecked it.  US figures came up. Must have been doing an update.


----------



## basilio (2 April 2020)

There is another site that also pulls together the information.
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus


----------



## rederob (2 April 2020)

basilio said:


> There is another site that also pulls together the information.
> https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus



Every few days the Financial Times adds a new graphics series to provide a different perspective on rates of spread, deaths, etc..
It has simple charts and snapshots, and its commentary is succinct.
I saved it to my favourites as it's the first thing I read each morning.


----------



## basilio (2 April 2020)

*Key UN climate talks, Cop26, that were due to take place in Glasgow in November have been postponed until 2021,* it has been announced. The UN’s climate change chief, Patricia Espinosa has also called Covid-19 the “most urgent threat facing humanity”,


----------



## dutchie (2 April 2020)

About time.
*Coronavirus Australia: Jail for people sending face masks, sanitiser to China*
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...a/news-story/b6b166732670eca9a42385158104a323


----------



## basilio (2 April 2020)




----------



## qldfrog (2 April 2020)

Genuine question:
Has anyone read any report about correlation between mortality rate from covid-19 and smoking?
Australian death rate so far is relatively low vs China, Spain, Italy and France/Belgium.
France not counting aged care deaths, it is not a matter of age.
So what: temperature? 
Or maybe the smoking rate in the currently contaminated group is actually low in Australia?
Anyone?


----------



## datasum (2 April 2020)

I can see what you're saying and smoking may well be a contributing factor but not the main one as Russia has an even higher smoking rate than China and the UK and USA have a lower one. Interesting article on Vitamin D's protective effect on respiratory infections:
https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583


----------



## spooly74 (2 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Genuine question:
> Has anyone read any report about correlation between mortality rate from covid-19 and smoking?
> Australian death rate so far is relatively low vs China, Spain, Italy and France/Belgium.
> France not counting aged care deaths, it is not a matter of age.
> ...



Only info I've seen regarding underlying conditions is this from New York.


----------



## moXJO (2 April 2020)




----------



## bellenuit (2 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Genuine question:
> Has anyone read any report about correlation between mortality rate from covid-19 and smoking?
> Australian death rate so far is relatively low vs China, Spain, Italy and France/Belgium.
> France not counting aged care deaths, it is not a matter of age.
> ...




Although age is a big factor, early reports from Wuhan showed a huge difference in the death rate between elderly men and elderly women, the former being much higher. This was attributed to the fact that very many elderly men smoked whereas elderly women rarely smoked.


----------



## qldfrog (2 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Although age is a big factor, early reports from Wuhan showed a huge difference in the death rate between elderly men and elderly women, the former being much higher. This was attributed to the fact that very many elderly men smoked whereas elderly women rarely smoked.



as noted , the death figures from France do not include age care residents
so basically younger than 85y old or so
yet we got a death toll of above 4000 out of 56,989 cases... 4 out of 57 or 7%..even worse when you consider the fact that people detected recently may still die ..

The detected cases I agree are the ones feeling sick, there are more undetected healthy or untreated contaminated
no issue with that but compared with Australia 4000 cases 22 deaths 0.6%..I know our wave is coming and we will see a delay but it is still a very big difference with similar decent health systems involved
I get the feeling we (aka the world) are still missing something big?
Different strain mortality? factor such as prescribed medicine?Smoking?
For info:
In France, everyone is saying DO NOT USE ibuprofen, or aspirin, paracetamol only so in case of a headache, you know what to take


----------



## Knobby22 (2 April 2020)

Yes, the theory is taking anti inflammatory drugs allow the virus to take hold.


----------



## DB008 (2 April 2020)

Street art


----------



## macca (2 April 2020)

datasum said:


> I can see what you're saying and smoking may well be a contributing factor but not the main one as Russia has an even higher smoking rate than China and the UK and USA have a lower one. Interesting article on Vitamin D's protective effect on respiratory infections:
> https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.i6583




Vitamin D has helped me to avoid flu/colds for years now


----------



## againsthegrain (2 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> Street art
> 
> View attachment 101921​



the enemy has been unmasked


----------



## basilio (3 April 2020)

againsthegrain said:


> the enemy has been unmasked



Really ?


----------



## qldfrog (3 April 2020)

macca said:


> Vitamin D has helped me to avoid flu/colds for years now



From unsure memory, vitamin D produced by skin under sunlight, so could our blue sky be the difference, is there any study about skin colour effect..on the same line..
In winter, no sun, low vit D especially in clouded sky countries..but Italy and Spain are very sunny..
There is a missing link somewhere


----------



## Logique (3 April 2020)

_*Hydroxychloroquine rated most effective Coronavirus therapy by doctors* - *global survey*_
Friday, 03 April 2020
https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/20...navirus-therapy-by-doctors-global-survey.html

_"An international poll of more than 6,000 doctors released Thursday found that the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine was the most highly rated treatment for the novel coronavirus.
The survey conducted by Sermo, a global health care polling company, of 6,227 physicians in 30 countries found that 37% of those treating COVID-19 patients rated hydroxychloroquine as the “most effective therapy” from a list of 15 options..."_


----------



## Humid (3 April 2020)

Havn’t heard much from the anti vaxxers......


----------



## rederob (3 April 2020)

Humid said:


> Havn’t heard much from the anti vaxxers......



Dead set?


----------



## macca (3 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> From unsure memory, vitamin D produced by skin under sunlight, so could our blue sky be the difference, is there any study about skin colour effect..on the same line..
> In winter, no sun, low vit D especially in clouded sky countries..but Italy and Spain are very sunny..
> There is a missing link somewhere




It is interesting, I have to avoid the sun because of skin cancers and I was lacking until a blood test (at my request) found it.

People with dark or olive skin need more exposure than those with pale skin, people who mainly live inside need extra Vitamin D as do females of Islam who are rarely exposed to the sun. 

I have read that rickets (Vit D) deficiency is a lot more common in Islamic society than in normal Oz lifestyle, understandable really.

In Italy and Spain, do people actually go out in the sun or is siesta and a long lunch taken indoors ?

Research in USA old folks homes shows that virtually everyone is Vit D deficient and the flu danger is substantially reduced if given a Vit D supplement as well as the flu shot.

Some were given just the flu shot, others both, extremely large variation in protection for those with both.

Legal reasons meant no one was game to just try Vit D


----------



## Knobby22 (3 April 2020)

I have very fair skin which is limiting but I do deliberately lie in the sun for about 10 minutes on sunny autumn and spring days to get vitamin D. Really works.


----------



## macca (3 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I have very fair skin which is limiting but I do deliberately lie in the sun for about 10 minutes on sunny autumn and spring days to get vitamin D. Really works.




Reminds me of Motorway who was telling us all this years ago.

Joe, it seems MW no longer posts here


----------



## Dona Ferentes (3 April 2020)

There are 193 countries which are members of the United Nations.
As of 2 April, *18 countries *had not reported a Covid-19 case, according to a BBC tally using data from Johns Hopkins University.

*The 18 countries without Covid-19*
Comoros; Kiribati; Lesotho; Marshall Islands; Micronesia; Nauru; North Korea; Palau; Samoa; Sao Tome and Principe; Solomon Islands; South Sudan; Tajikistan; Tonga; Turkmenistan; Tuvalu; Vanuatu, Yemen
(bbc.com)

_- some of the remote island nations, maybe, but we've got a credibility issue with a few obvious ones?_
(and incidentally Solomon Islands have just been hit by a cyclone TC Harold; large loss of life from a ferry sinking, it is reported)


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Or maybe the smoking rate in the currently contaminated group is actually low in Australia?



One observation is that whilst it was different historically, there are not many heavy smokers in Australia these days. Smokers yes, but not heavy ones going through a pack a day or more.

Considering cigarettes are now seriously expensive and that smoking is banned in pretty much all workplaces apart from truck drivers and the odd small business outdoor situation, there's a practical limit to how much someone can actually smoke these days in Australia. Those who are rich and don't work don't have that problem but that group tend to not be heavy smokers anyway.

So whilst many people still do smoke, there wouldn't be too many heavy smokers in Australia these days surely. It's just too impractical to be one for there to be many of them.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I get the feeling we (aka the world) are still missing something big?



If weather has anything to do with Australia's lower death rate then we're about to put that to a partial test.

Melbourne's maximum temperature is forecast to be 16 for the next 4 days with no day over 18 during the coming week and minimums around 10 each night. 

That's not proper winter weather but it's a clear, firm departure from the summer weather pattern. So if we see the situation deteriorate in Melbourne, but it does not deteriorate in Brisbane which is still experiencing summer-like weather, then that would possibly be of some relevance.


----------



## qldfrog (3 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> If weather has anything to do with Australia's lower death rate then we're about to put that to a partial test.
> 
> Melbourne's maximum temperature is forecast to be 16 for the next 4 days with no day over 18 during the coming week and minimums around 10 each night.
> 
> That's not proper winter weather but it's a clear, firm departure from the summer weather pattern. So if we see the situation deteriorate in Melbourne, but it does not deteriorate in Brisbane which is still experiencing summer-like weather, then that would possibly be of some relevance.



If heat really plays a role, we are going to be in very deep shxt as it will get worse and worse here, coming from a large base..
Good point about real live test happening now in Melbourne.
So lets compare vic vs nsw in a fortnight


----------



## noirua (4 April 2020)




----------



## Smurf1976 (4 April 2020)

Is anyone else noticing any change in behaviour of others?

Anything really but the specific one I've noticed is the roads seem to have turned into a race track.

At a purely personal level I'm seeing that as a bigger danger to me than the virus at this stage. Only a matter of time until these idiots with their foot to the floor run of the road and hit something.


----------



## qldfrog (4 April 2020)

Many source try to pass that lab origin as conspiracy..indeed, if it did, we can blame the Chinese government..not something many want to do openly
To add to the details about this la b being the source, chonese researchers.. hopefully not fake new:
https://web.archive.org/web/2020021...The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus 
Note the date 15/02...


----------



## qldfrog (4 April 2020)

Ok link dead:-(
Here is the abstract before it get removed
Abstract
The 2019-nCoV has caused an epidemic of 28,060 laboratory-confirmed infections in human including 564 deaths in China by February 6, 2020. Two descriptions of the virus published on Nature this week indicated that the genome sequences from patients were almost identical to the Bat CoV ZC45 coronavirus. It was critical to study where the pathogen came from and how it passed onto human. An article published on The Lancet reported that 27 of 41 infected patients were found to have contact with the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan. We noted two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus in Wuhan, one of which was only 280 meters from the seafood market. We briefly examined the histories of the laboratories and proposed that the coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory. Our proposal provided an alternative origin of the coronavirus in addition to natural recombination and intermediate host.


----------



## qldfrog (4 April 2020)

Hum probably wrong place for my 2 posts.got tricked @Joe Blow  if and when you have the time, could you please move these 2 posts to the coronovirus thread
As a note, you will soon get a donation from me : i think i am losing the bet with @SirRumpole 
This is good news


----------



## wayneL (4 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Is anyone else noticing any change in behaviour of others?
> 
> Anything really but the specific one I've noticed is the roads seem to have turned into a race track.
> 
> At a purely personal level I'm seeing that as a bigger danger to me than the virus at this stage. Only a matter of time until these idiots with their foot to the floor run of the road and hit something.



I mentioned a similar thing the other day, so yes, definitely noticed more shxthead behaviour on the roads.... And more general rudeness.

I'm thinking this... well, the government response to this, is going to have a profound and lasting negative impact on social order.

My own switch has definitely been flipped by the brownshirts this weekend.


----------



## dutchie (4 April 2020)

The China Virus was started by China they are to blame for all the misery in the world today, all the deaths and all the economic damage in the world.
And are now trying to make capital of it for their own benefit.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/i-found-source-covid-19


China initiated, China delayed, China lied, many people in the world died.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 April 2020)

Data for the 3rd of April shows 140 new cases in Australia. That's the lowest since 17 March so perhaps we're seeing some benefits from all the action being taken?


----------



## basilio (5 April 2020)

Bringing Australians home... Very complex situation for many thousands of stranded travellers and expats.

*DFAT working behind the scenes to repatriate Australians during coronavirus pandemic*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...alians-covid-19-coronavirus-pandemic/12122338


----------



## basilio (5 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Data for the 3rd of April shows 140 new cases in Australia. That's the lowest since 17 March so perhaps we're seeing some benefits from all the action being taken?



Excellent.  I suspect however that if/when repatriate the thousands of people who are currently stranded on  cruise ships and overseas this figure will jump again.

I hope the authorities can be sophisticated enough to differentiate between increased infection from local transmission and bringing back people who already have the virus.


----------



## basilio (5 April 2020)

The chilling reality of an epidemic is the  potential exponential growth in new cases.  Each new infection can produce a couple more.
There is a mathematical example of doubling grains of rice on each position  on a chess board .  Some pretty fancy numbers come up with those maths.

But the critical problem happens  in the second half of the chess board.  
1, 2, 4, 8, 16 ,32 ,64, 128, 256, 512, 1024 just looks interesting but not that significant

The next 11 doublings take you into atmospheric territory and when we translate that into infection rates across the world many countries are at the 1,000, 2000, 4000 levels. The US for example  jumped from 74 cases to 188,000 in March - and that has been blown away in the past few days

*The exponential growth of coronavirus can be explained by rice on a chessboard. And we should be worried*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...th-explained-by-rice-on-a-chessboard/12122214


----------



## hja (5 April 2020)

basilio said:


> The chilling reality of an epidemic is the  potential exponential growth in new cases.  Each new infection can produce a couple more.
> There is a mathematical example of doubling grains of rice on each position  on a chess board .  Some pretty fancy numbers come up with those maths.
> 
> But the critical problem happens  in the second half of the chess board.
> ...



As Yul Brynner used to say: whatever you do, don't breathe.


----------



## basilio (5 April 2020)

COVID 19 hitting Brazils super rich.

*Brazil's super-rich and the exclusive club at the heart of a coronavirus hotspot *
It is Brazil’s most exclusive club – a beachside sanctuary of privilege and power to which just 0.00041% of the country’s citizens have the keys.
But the Rio de Janeiro Country Club – founded by British executives in 1916 and frequented since by the crème de la crème of _carioca_ society – has been thrown into mourning by the coronavirus pandemic, sparking a nationwide debate about class and inequality in one of the most economically lopsided societies on earth.
At least 60 of the club’s 850 globe-trotting members have reportedly been struck down with Covid-19, while one – the septuagenarian businesswoman Mirna Bandeira de Mello – has died and been laid to rest during a funeral attended by no one but her son.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ve-club-at-the-heart-of-a-coronavirus-hotspot


----------



## basilio (5 April 2020)

A look at COVID 19 and the suburbs.  Is this you ?

*Coronavirus and the suburbs — how we're dealing with social isolation in the suburbs*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...-in-suburbs-how-to-deal-with-covid19/12115386


----------



## macca (5 April 2020)

basilio said:


> A look at COVID 19 and the suburbs.  Is this you ?
> 
> *Coronavirus and the suburbs — how we're dealing with social isolation in the suburbs*
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...-in-suburbs-how-to-deal-with-covid19/12115386




How typically Aussie, there he is on national news and he is mowing the grass in bare feet, without shoes or boots for safety.

That is the attitude that most have to the virus, we have never had a problem so we do not know how to act

Sheila B Wright Mate !!


----------



## hja (5 April 2020)

macca said:


> How typically Aussie, there he is on national news and he is mowing the grass in bare feet, without shoes or boots for safety.
> 
> That is the attitude that most have to the virus, we have never had a problem so we do not know how to act
> 
> Sheila B Wright Mate !!



Yep though I haven't noticed it around the supermarkets recently.
Maybe they're more scared of dropping large bundles of toilet paper on their feet.

This is how they might have queued up to get into the shops tomorrow but with a little more spacing.







No worries mate


----------



## Toyota Lexcen (5 April 2020)

everybody doing a great job, long way to go. Take it serious, 

8 out 10 must stay home as much as possible.


----------



## Joules MM1 (6 April 2020)

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany’s confirmed coronavirus infections rose by 3,677 in the past 24 hours to 95,391 on Monday, the fourth straight drop in the daily rate of new cases, according to data from the Robert Koch Institute for infectious diseases.

The number of new cases was lower than the 5,936 new infections reported on Sunday.

The reported death toll rose by 92 to 1,434.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

https://www.tradingview.com/covid19/
select "worldwide"


----------



## rederob (6 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Ok link dead:-(
> Here is the abstract before it get removed
> Abstract
> The 2019-nCoV has caused an epidemic of 28,060 laboratory-confirmed infections in human including 564 deaths in China by February 6, 2020. Two descriptions of the virus published on Nature this week indicated that the genome sequences from patients were almost identical to the Bat CoV ZC45 coronavirus. It was critical to study where the pathogen came from and how it passed onto human. An article published on The Lancet reported that 27 of 41 infected patients were found to have contact with the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan. We noted two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus in Wuhan, one of which was only 280 meters from the seafood market. We briefly examined the histories of the laboratories and proposed that the coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory. Our proposal provided an alternative origin of the coronavirus in addition to natural recombination and intermediate host.



Your link is a typical example of where conspiracy theories are born as it was just an "opinion" and not actual research of the genetic origins of the virus.
I have as much evidence about the fact that Boris and Donald are twins.


----------



## Joules MM1 (6 April 2020)

https://www.covid.is/data

lotsa data see above


----------



## qldfrog (6 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Your link is a typical example of where conspiracy theories are born as it was just an "opinion" and not actual research of the genetic origins of the virus.
> I have as much evidence about the fact that Boris and Donald are twins.



Not that you are not the kind of person who put opinions as facts as so numerous posts can demonstrate it
Yes it is my opinion that it come from that laboratory, no i do not have any proof nor will we ever as China will not allow them to surface if it is the case.we can live in lala land, nothing new for some here and swallow it came from the bats meat from a market not selling bats..
The mystery virus..
Conspiracy theories are born due to absence of open information, still looking for patient 0 it seems. batman
yeap just found it batman


----------



## rederob (6 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Not that you are not the kind of person who put opinions as facts as so numerous posts can demonstrate it
> Yes it is my opinion that it come from that laboratory, no i do not have any proof nor will we ever as China will not allow them to surface if it is the case.we can live in lala land, nothing new for some here and swallow it came from the bats meat from a market not selling bats..
> The mystery virus..
> Conspiracy theories are born due to absence of open information, still looking for patient 0 it seems. batman
> yeap just found it batman



I previously linked a scientific paper explaining why it was almost impossible for a lab to create the virus.
You are not citing credible sources. 
Anyone wanting to learn more about the genetic basis of COVID-19 can search google scholar and find many peer reviewed papers.


----------



## moXJO (6 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I previously linked a scientific paper explaining why it was almost impossible for a lab to create the virus.
> You are not citing credible sources.
> Anyone wanting to learn more about the genetic basis of COVID-19 can search google scholar and find many peer reviewed papers.



A lab studying the virus is different to creating it.
Dr. Richard H. Ebright has a differing opinion.



> Ebright thinks that it is possible the COVID-19 pandemic started as an accidental release from a laboratory such as one of the two in Wuhan that are known to have been studying bat coronaviruses.
> 
> Except for SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV, two deadly viruses that have caused outbreaks in the past, coronaviruses have been studied at laboratories that are labelled as operating at a moderate biosafety level known as BSL-2, Ebright says. And, he says, bat coronaviruses have been studied at such labs in and around Wuhan, China, where the new coronavirus first emerged. “As a result,” Ebright says, “bat coronaviruses at Wuhan [Center for Disease Control] and Wuhan Institute of Virology routinely were collected and studied at BSL-2, which provides only minimal protections against infection of lab workers.”
> 
> ...




https://thebulletin.org/2020/03/exp...her-it-could-have-leaked-from-a-research-lab/

So it's in the realms of possibility.


----------



## sptrawler (6 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> A lab studying the virus is different to creating it.
> Dr. Richard H. Ebright has a differing opinion.
> 
> https://thebulletin.org/2020/03/exp...her-it-could-have-leaked-from-a-research-lab/
> ...



How rapid and radical the response has been Worldwide, would suggest that strain was recognised very quickly, which in turn would indicate there was prior knowledge of it.
The SARS,MERS and swine fever outbreaks, didn't cause the immediate and universal panic this did. Nor did they have unique properties that this does
I guess either everyone new about the problem, or were given a hell of a heads up as soon as it surfaced in Wuhan, because the reaction has been nothing short of amazing.
It isn't as though the Governments aren't taking it ten times more serious, than what they did when SARS or ebola broke out, they knew or were told how bad this was and the big red button was pushed.
That has never happened before, why? We have had cross species viruses before.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## IFocus (7 April 2020)

Mo they are talking about accidental release not that the lab created the virus.

"The _Nature Medicine_ authors “leave us where we were before: with a basis to rule out [a coronavirus that is] a lab construct, but no basis to rule out a lab accident,” Ebright says."


----------



## sptrawler (7 April 2020)

Interesting the focus is down to individual areas already.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/eight-areas-where-you-are-urged-get-tested-coronavirus-011330708.html
From the article:
“We take this opportunity to encourage people to come forward for testing if they've got symptoms in the areas Waverley, Woollahra, Dee Why, Lake Macquarie, Manning Point, Nowra, Byron Bay and Port Macquarie,” Dr Chant said. 

“In those areas, we have seen a case, or cases, of local transmission where we haven't been able to find the source. 

“It is important at this time as we try and suppress the numbers of COVID-19 in the community that we basically elevate and raise testing levels in the vicinity of those areas, geographical areas, and we assure ourselves that we're not missing more broad-based transmission in those communities.”
*The eight areas in NSW concerning officials*

Waverley


Woollahra


Dee Why


Lake Macquarie


Manning Point


Nowra


Byron Bay


Port Macquarie


----------



## Dona Ferentes (7 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting the focus is down to individual areas already.
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/eight-areas-where-you-are-urged-get-tested-coronavirus-011330708.html
> From the article:
> “We take this opportunity to encourage people to come forward for testing if they've got symptoms in the areas Waverley, Woollahra, Dee Why, Lake Macquarie, Manning Point, Nowra, Byron Bay and Port Macquarie,” Dr Chant said.
> ...



It's interesting that the Epping/ Castle Hill, (in NW Sydney) area, which featured in early cases - especially in nursing homes - appears to have gained control over transmission. I'm not sure which factors would allow this to happen, though the diffuse lower density of population as well as early and lockdown/ socially aware intervention may be contributing.


----------



## cynic (7 April 2020)

At least Batboy is in the clear now, but I don't think he has any hope of success in his campaign against the Don!

https://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/178245/bat-boy-tests-negative-for-coronavirus/#more-178245


----------



## SirRumpole (7 April 2020)

Police officers fined for breaking distancing regulations.

Really, shouldn't they be sacked ? If we can't trust the police to obey the law, they shouldn't be police in the first place.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...breach-coronavirus-social-distancing/12128828


----------



## moXJO (7 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> Mo they are talking about accidental release not that the lab created the virus.
> 
> "The _Nature Medicine_ authors “leave us where we were before: with a basis to rule out [a coronavirus that is] a lab construct, but no basis to rule out a lab accident,” Ebright says."



That's what I said.


----------



## IFocus (8 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> That's what I said.





Sorry thought you were saying someone made it.


----------



## moXJO (8 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> Sorry thought you were saying someone made it.



Na.
I meant lab escape. Could have structured my wording better. 
It wouldn't be the first lab escape either.


----------



## DB008 (8 April 2020)

Abc showing true colours again. Talk about being negative. 

Once you dead, you dead. Everything else can be rebuilt. 

Analysis: A complete societal breakdown looms if Scott Morrison gets coronavirus wrong http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-08/coronavirus-covid-19-economy-human-life-cost-business-morrison/12130190


----------



## Dona Ferentes (8 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> Abc showing true colours again. Talk about being negative.
> 
> Once you dead, you dead. Everything else can be rebuilt.
> 
> Analysis: A complete societal breakdown looms if Scott Morrison gets coronavirus wrong http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-08/coronavirus-covid-19-economy-human-life-cost-business-morrison/12130190



it is all his fault


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> it is all his fault



It is bizarre how the media has adopted this attitude, they must be working themselves up into a lather, for a push to change P.M's yet again.
Fireman Scott, to sportsman Scott, racist Scott, too slow to lockdown Scott, now Dr Scott.
I guess it comes with the drivers seat, but it wouldn't hurt for the media to hand out a few bouguets, instead of always brick bats.
I guess it is only ok to talk about negativity, if your a female P.M.


----------



## rederob (8 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> How rapid and radical the response has been Worldwide, would suggest that strain was recognised very quickly, which in turn would indicate there was prior knowledge of it.



That makes no sense.
If there was prior knowledge then all nations would have acted immediately to prevent its spread, rather than wait 3 weeks.







sptrawler said:


> I guess either everyone new about the problem, or were given a hell of a heads up as soon as it surfaced in Wuhan, because the reaction has been nothing short of amazing.



Again, the WHO had no idea what they were dealing with for several weeks after they were notified, and Wuhan's medical staff became infected, with some dying, so it does not square with what you said.


sptrawler said:


> It isn't as though the Governments aren't taking it ten times more serious, than what they did when SARS or ebola broke out, they knew or were told how bad this was and the big red button was pushed.



Maybe you have never watched Trump's response in the early days, and he was not alone in playing it down and suggesting it was just like the common flu.
Moreover, the only "red button" (as you call it) pressed early on was the one stopping direct flights from China.  And only a few nations, like China and South Korea, immediately responded by ramping up production of medical equipment necessary to deal with the threat if it worsened.
None of the above is my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2020)

I see you are still making up press releases Rob, you need to get out more, oh I forgot you can't, so your dribbling will no doubt intensify.


----------



## Humid (8 April 2020)

The ABC has no paywall
Buy news that suits you .....tightarses


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2020)

Humid said:


> The ABC has no paywall
> Buy news that suits you .....tightarses



See Rob, even Humid agree.


----------



## rederob (8 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I see you are still making up press releases Rob, you need to get out more, oh I forgot you can't, so your dribbling will no doubt intensify.



I shop 3 times a week and walk every day, aside from from rebuilding our pool deck, so you should stick to making informed comment rather than expressing poorly based opinions.


----------



## basilio (8 April 2020)

You can read the  analayis of how the Corona Virus would play out in the US if it was allowed to just rip or aggressive steps taken to control it.
Two separate MEMOs  by the Presidents Economics advisor on January 29th and Feb 23rd. Both reflected the catastrophe that was occurring in China and the spread of the virus across  other countries including the US.
Well worth a read.

*Navarro memos warning of mass coronavirus death circulated in January*
https://www.axios.com/exclusive-nav...ary-da3f08fb-dce1-4f69-89b5-ea048f8382a9.html


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2020)

basilio said:


> You can read the  analayis of how the Corona Virus would play out in the US if it was allowed to just rip or aggressive steps taken to control it.
> Two separate MEMOs  by the Presidents Economics advisor on January 29th and Feb 23rd. Both reflected the catastrophe that was occurring in China and the spread of the virus across  other countries including the US.
> Well worth a read.
> 
> ...




In the early stages of our outbreak, it was reported we would have run out of ICU beds by today 8th April, unless a lockdown was initiated straight away.
It has been interesting watching it all unfold, hopefully the worst is over, but I very much doubt it.


----------



## qldfrog (8 April 2020)

while we initially were lacking in term of death vs cases 9a nice thing) sadly I think we are catching up; we initially were talking about hospitalisation within 5 to 10 days, the more experiences i read about, it seems now you end up in hospital after a 10 days or more..a la Boris


----------



## qldfrog (8 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I shop 3 times a week and walk every day, aside from from rebuilding our pool deck, so you should stick to making informed comment rather than expressing poorly based opinions.



shopping 3 times a week...isolation is quite relative for some..<-- informed comment here


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> shopping 3 times a week...isolation is quite relative for some..<-- informed comment here



How are people responding to the isolation in your area frog?
I was talking to a close friend who owns a small building company, he is closing up, also in the next factory unit there is a building maint company 20 employees (closed).
It seems as though things are starting to bite hard.


----------



## rederob (8 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> shopping 3 times a week...isolation is quite relative for some..<-- informed comment here



You are confusing your terminology for starters, as it's *social distancing*.
Fresh fruit and vegetables are important to us, apart from also doing some shopping for a lady just out of hospital.
Aside from that, I sanitised my hands no less than a dozen times while shopping today and never once touched my face.   This latter point is the key to prevention.
We also follow a routine of separating all shopping on returning home, in keeping with some of the videos that explain the process.


----------



## sptrawler (8 April 2020)

W.A to increase testing significantly from tomorrow:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...expanded-fever-respiratory-infection/12132786:
From the article:
Western Australia will significantly increase coronavirus testing starting from tomorrow, with anyone who has had a fever or acute respiratory infection in recent days now eligible to be checked for the virus.
Mr Cook said the expanded testing criteria meant from tomorrow any person with a fever of 38 degrees Celsius or higher — or who had one in recent days — or an acute respiratory infection would be eligible to be tested.

That would include anybody with symptoms such as a shortness of breath, cough or sore throat.

"This is a significant change and means we will capture a much wider proportion of the public," he said.

"This will ensure we are able to find new cases, protect the vulnerable and ensure we track the movement of the virus in the community.

"If you have symptoms, then please go to the clinics and be tested.


----------



## qldfrog (8 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> How are people responding to the isolation in your area frog?
> I was talking to a close friend who owns a small building company, he is closing up, also in the next factory unit there is a building maint company 20 employees (closed).
> It seems as though things are starting to bite hard.



Not really sure, in isolation so can not judge: one neighbour: a plumber is home everyday it seems, another: a lady was working in a restaurant/cafe and the place is now closed;another a painter still has work, and the last one an airplane maintenance engineer is mowing the place to death.no wonder..
I would say 3 or 4 employed out of 10 or so immediate neighbours..i have a lot of neighbours....


----------



## wayneL (9 April 2020)

Interesting thread here on how covid affects us and why they believe medications work.


----------



## qldfrog (9 April 2020)

Interesting theory, so far i read it was inflammation at the lung interface reducing 02 transfer capacity, worsened by fluids build up in the lungs alveoli..
If the above is true, could lead to different better treatments


----------



## Knobby22 (9 April 2020)

If.


----------



## qldfrog (9 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> If.



Indeed we know so little and knowledge need time, stats then potential use of the info.
Maybe an iron supplement or boost could be all what is needed
I hope our healthcare is liaising with China,as they tried a lot of things
Like vitamin C drip etc
I mean Chinese doctors , not the gov of China..


----------



## Knobby22 (9 April 2020)

The Chinese did a study with that drug and it didn't work. I think we have to look elsewhere. There was hope the Aids anti viral drugs would work but they failed also.
It's like that horse virus. Very hard to treat.

Mesoblast have that anti inflammatory drugs that appears to show some success that the Chinese are testing.

There is also the treatment from the USA that involves taking immune cells from people who have recovered but you practically need to be a billionaire to afford the treatment, if you can get it.

Personally I think the lupis/malaria treatments are just being used to give people hope while they look.


----------



## qldfrog (9 April 2020)

The worst state in australia by far, thanks God we did not have a cruise ship terminal...
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/na...-potential-covid-19-drug-20200408-p54ic1.html


Knobby22 said:


> The Chinese did a study with that drug and it didn't work. I think we have to look elsewhere. There was hope the Aids anti viral drugs would work but they failed also.
> It's like that horse virus. Very hard to treat.
> 
> Mesoblast have that anti inflammatory drugs that appears to show some success that the Chinese are testing.
> ...



That drug and an antiviral has had very good results on 2 different trials in France..
That Jeannette we have here: I would not trust her to even prescribe me a cold remedy.I imagine how the professionals must be if I can feel that way with very basic science knowledge


----------



## qldfrog (9 April 2020)

I wil


Knobby22 said:


> The Chinese did a study with that drug and it didn't work. I think we have to look elsewhere. There was hope the Aids anti viral drugs would work but they failed also.
> It's like that horse virus. Very hard to treat.
> 
> Mesoblast have that anti inflammatory drugs that appears to show some success that the Chinese are testing.
> ...



l try to find you the test trials results from the Marseille specialist


----------



## qldfrog (9 April 2020)

https://www.ft.com/content/679024aa-d70a-49df-9c77-e4d9967c0f2d
make your own opinion..For me, it is a winner, we will have to wait to see if he was right while thousands will die.And this article is highly critical..i


----------



## Knobby22 (9 April 2020)

It's walled. I can't see it. Can you post conclusion qldfrog?


----------



## Knobby22 (9 April 2020)

Found this:
https://www.ft.com/content/679024aa-d70a-49df-9c77-e4d9967c0f2d

I note some criticism but also a large trial is taking place - hope the news is good.

 Scientists in Europe and globally are now studying the protocol in larger, controlled trials. One trial now enrolling 1,300 high-risk patients at 36 French hospitals of hydroxychloroquine against a placebo aims to “end the controversy” in the coming weeks. Another trial of about 3,200 patients in eight European countries will compare outcomes from standard hospital care for Covid-19 against four experimental treatments. Hydroxychloroquine will be tested along with Gilead Sciences’ remdesivir, and combinations of antiretrovirals usually used to treat HIV.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 April 2020)

Also:

*Melbourne, Australia; Thursday April 9, 2020; and New York, USA; Wednesday April 8, 2020: *Mesoblast Limited (ASX:MSB; Nasdaq:MESO) today announced that its allogeneic mesenchymal stem cell (MSC) product candidate remestemcel-L will be formally evaluated in a randomized, placebo-controlled trial in 240 patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) caused by coronavirus infection (COVID-19).
This multi-center Phase 2/3 trial will be conducted as a public-private partnership in a collaboration with the Cardiothoracic Surgical Trials Network (CTSN), which was established by the United States National Institutes of Health’s National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute (NHLBI) as a flexible platform for conducting collaborative trials. Mesoblast holds an Investigational New Drug (IND) Application from the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for use of remestemcel-L in the treatment of patients with COVID-19 ARDS, and will provide investigational product for the trial.


----------



## spooly74 (9 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> Interesting thread here on how covid affects us and why they believe medications work.




Wonder what the survival rate for those put ventilators after being admitted to ICU is?

Perhaps we'll see a shift away from intubation for the critically ill and try to get O2 into the bloodstream via a different method before organ failure.


----------



## spooly74 (9 April 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Wonder what the survival rate for those put ventilators after being admitted to ICU is?
> 
> Perhaps we'll see a shift away from intubation for the critically ill and try to get O2 into the bloodstream via a different method before organ failure.




https://www.npr.org/sections/health...-panacea-for-critically-ill-covid-19-patients


> Most coronavirus patients who end up on ventilators go on to die, according to several small studies from the U.S., China and Europe.




An alternative treatment is ECMO.
How widely available is this?


----------



## Knobby22 (9 April 2020)

So if you are on a ventilator, chances are you will live longer but still die. Pretty bad.


----------



## sptrawler (9 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> So if you are on a ventilator, chances are you will live longer but still die. Pretty bad.



They would only put people who were going to die without the ventilator, so they are probably in a terrible way, before they were put on it.
The whole episode is just sad, what a way to end your life, drowning in your own mucus not nice.


----------



## sptrawler (9 April 2020)

I had to laugh at my Mum the other day, I was talking to her on the phone and told her we were home schooling the grandkids, she said why aren't they at school? We had to go to school when planes were dropping bombs on us and had to run to shelters when the sirens started.
I guess if it isn't one thing it's another.


----------



## basilio (9 April 2020)

IMV the serious problem will be preventing COVID 19 from decimating poorer countries - particularly if they have nuclear weapons. What happens with a failed state that still has a deadly military capacity ?
Pakistan is on the front pages here.

* Pakistan doctors beaten by police as they despair of 'untreatable' pandemic *
Lack of equipment, dysfunctional government and conflicting messages are impeding country’s efforts against virus
Hannah Ellis-Petersen in Delhi and Shah Meer Baloch

Thu 9 Apr 2020 10.00 AEST

Shares
33




Police arrest doctors and paramedics at a protest in Quetta, Balochistan, on Monday. Photograph: Banaras Khan/AFP/Getty
Doctors in Pakistan have warned of “deplorable” conditions on the frontlines of the country’s coronavirus outbreak, describing the pandemic as untreatable in one region and accusing police of brutally suppressing protests over working conditions.

One doctor who took part in a sit-in on Monday to protest against a lack of personal protective equipment said he had been “beaten and humiliated” by police.

“In the beginning, I thought, ‘How could police use violence against the frontline fighters of Covid-19 when some days ago the same officers had saluted us for leading during the pandemic?’” said Amanullah, speaking from the police station where he was being held in Quetta, in the Balochistan region. 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rs-beaten-police-despair-untreatable-pandemic


----------



## qldfrog (9 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> It's walled. I can't see it. Can you post conclusion qldfrog?



I was offered a one survey question and i was in.. content more or less what you described after


----------



## chiff (9 April 2020)

Reported that cases of influenza have diminished markedly.The methods of lessening the spread of the coronavirus,ie distancing washing hands etc, also help with influenza.


----------



## bellenuit (9 April 2020)

The virus came to the New York area mainly from Europe, not Asia, genetic analysis shows, arriving weeks before the first confirmed case.

*Coronavirus in New York came mainly from Europe, studies show.*
New research indicates that the coronavirus began to circulate in the New York area by mid-February, weeks before the first confirmed case, and that it was brought to the region mainly by travelers from Europe, not Asia.

“The majority is clearly European,” said Harm van Bakel, a geneticist at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, who co-wrote a study awaiting peer review.

A separate team at N.Y.U. Grossman School of Medicine came to strikingly similar conclusions, despite studying a different group of cases. Both teams analyzed genomes from coronaviruses taken
from New Yorkers starting in mid-March.

The research revealed a previously hidden spread of the virus that might have been detected if aggressive testing programs had been put in place. On Jan. 31, President Trump barred foreign nationals from entering the country if they had been in China — the site of the virus’s first known outbreak — during the previous two weeks.


Viruses invade a cell and take over its molecular machinery, causing it to make new viruses. An international guild of viral historians ferrets out the history of outbreaks by poring over clues embedded in the genetic material of viruses taken from thousands of patients.

In January, a team of Chinese and Australian researchers published the first genome of the new virus. Since then, researchers around the world have sequenced over 3,000 more. Some are genetically identical to each other, while others carry distinctive mutations.


----------



## sptrawler (9 April 2020)

YAHOO at last medical supplies, oh thank you China.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/wuhan-pla...ney-after-coronavirus-lockdown-030130311.html
From the article:
_In a near-deserted Sydney airport, a flight from China’s coronavirus epicentre touched down on Australian soil for the first time in more than two months.
Being sent to Australia from Wuhan was 90 tonnes of much-needed medical supplies, the Department of Home Affairs has confirmed.

The freight was made up of protective masks, gowns and ventilators_.


_A spokesperson for the embassy said sections of the media were "keen to defame the local Chinese companies" at the same time as Australian businesses are importing protective equipment from China.

"The Aussie media are misleading the public, maliciously characterised the Chinese companies' purchasing, a purely humiliation move, as 'scandal'," the embassy said in a statement on Monday.

"Then how do they characterise the Aussie companies' procurement in China? Another scandal_?

Well DUH, it might be because we can't make any of the gear, that the Chinese companies bought here and sent to China.
What a dumb ar$e thing for an embassy official to say, China wont do themselves any favours, taking that stance IMO.


----------



## macca (9 April 2020)

As I have posted previously, China shipped 50 tons of Vitamin C to Wuhan not long after the virus escaped.

* Story at-a-glance *

Vitamins C and D are finally being adopted in the conventional treatment of novel coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2. This fortunate turn of events is likely to save thousands of lives, while keeping health care costs down
Seriously ill coronavirus patients in New York state’s largest hospital system receive 1,500 milligrams of intravenous vitamin C three to four times a day, in conjunction with other conventional treatments
Vitamin C at extremely high doses acts as an antiviral drug, actually killing viruses

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...d=20200407Z2&et_cid=DM501437&et_rid=845504949


----------



## basilio (9 April 2020)

Came across an outstanding story which examines the  explosive way the corona virus was spread in a range of social gatherings.  The gatherings ranged from funerals, to  beach parties, prayer meetings to Mardi Gras.
A great explainer and gets across how quickly this virus can spread in a group of people.

*The cluster effect: how social gatherings were rocket fuel for coronavirus *

*




*

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-gatherings-were-rocket-fuel-for-coronavirus


----------



## bellenuit (9 April 2020)

*Coronavirus: Leaked intelligence report shows US was warned about COVID-19 in November*

https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...r/news-story/f46254a64f98f393d9935585611fa77b


----------



## noirua (9 April 2020)

*Tiziana Life Sciences files patent application for its novel coronavirus treatment technology*
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.u...-coronavirus-treatment-technology-916999.html


----------



## wayneL (10 April 2020)

I assume this is fair dinkum... interesting if so:

*****

A new study investigates California's possible herd immunity to COVID-19




Updated: 12:17 PM PDT Apr 8, 2020

Caitlin Conrad  
Reporter

MONTEREY, Calif. —
Researchers at Stanford Medicine are working to find out what proportion of Californians have already had COVID-19.

Link: https://www.ksbw.com/article/new-st...s-possible-herd-immunity-to-covid-19/32073873


----------



## basilio (10 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *Coronavirus: Leaked intelligence report shows US was warned about COVID-19 in November*
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...r/news-story/f46254a64f98f393d9935585611fa77b




*Excellent summary* of the repeated warnings about the inevitability of another pandemic and the need to invest modest amounts to to prevent and deal with it.
Also highlights the fact that US intelligence realised Wuhan was dealing with a disastrous epidemic in November 2019. They reported and updated the US government repeatedly on this situation through December and January. 

*In fact they were advising the Trump administration for at least 6 weeks before WHO was making universal reports on the dangers posed by this epidemic*

Join the dots on why the US was totally unprepared  for the eventual fallout.


----------



## rederob (10 April 2020)

basilio said:


> *Excellent summary* of the repeated warnings about the inevitability of another pandemic and the need to invest modest amounts to to prevent and deal with it.
> Also highlights the fact that US intelligence realised Wuhan was dealing with a disastrous epidemic in November 2019. They reported and updated the US government repeatedly on this situation through December and January.
> 
> *In fact they were advising the Trump administration for at least 6 weeks before WHO was making universal reports on the dangers posed by this epidemic*
> ...



I don't find these reports credible.
It is highly improbable that US intelligence would apparently find something with cataclysmic potential in November and not be able to determine by December that there was a SARS-like virus causing pneumonia by late December given there were tweets from Wuhan doctors about it, and contact tracing occurring that led to Wuhan's wet markets being closed down on January 1.
The issue of Trump's ignorance is an entirely different matter.


----------



## basilio (10 April 2020)

The full report from the ABC (US version) makes interesting reading.  Certainly looks as if the intelligence community were on the ball with regard to the development of the virus threat.

*Intelligence report warned of coronavirus crisis as early as November: Sources*
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/int...isis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273


----------



## rederob (10 April 2020)

basilio said:


> The full report from the ABC (US version) makes interesting reading.  Certainly looks as if the intelligence community were on the ball with regard to the development of the virus threat.
> 
> *Intelligence report warned of coronavirus crisis as early as November: Sources*
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/int...isis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273



If it was true, where is the evidence?
Looks like a media beat up doing the rounds.


----------



## moXJO (10 April 2020)

basilio said:


> The full report from the ABC (US version) makes interesting reading.  Certainly looks as if the intelligence community were on the ball with regard to the development of the virus threat.
> 
> *Intelligence report warned of coronavirus crisis as early as November: Sources*
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/int...isis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273



Taiwan has more spies and connections and they were not onto it till mid December.


----------



## spooly74 (10 April 2020)

Article is a little dated with respect to the numbers now but worth a read.

*SARS-CoV-2: fear versus data



Highlights
•
Comparison of incidence and mortality rates of four common coronaviruses circulating in France with those of SARS-CoV-2 in OECD countries.

•
As of 2 March 2020, 90 307 patients had tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 worldwide, with 3086 deaths (mortality rate 3.4%).

•
As of 2 March 2020, among OECD countries, 7476 patients had tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, with 96 deaths (mortality rate 1.3%)

•
As of 2 March 2020, in France, 191 people had tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, with three deaths (mortality rate 1.6%).

•
In OECD countries. the mortality rate for SARS-CoV-2 (1.3%) is not significantly different from that for common coronaviruses identified in public hospitals of Marseille, France (0.8%; P=0.11).

•
The problem of SARS-CoV-2 is probably overestimated, as 2.6 million people die of respiratory infections each year compared with less than 4000 deaths for SARS-CoV-2 at the time of writing.
		
Click to expand...


*
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920300972


----------



## Knobby22 (10 April 2020)

Yes, well that's been proven wrong.
The Spanish, Italians, French  English and  Americans  knew about the v it is in January but the political  believed this stuff about it being not much worse than the flu. 

They should haveunderstood the fear present in China.  No country's  population  is going to accept a 2% death rate., or a 17% death rate for 70 and 80 year olds.

You saw it most obvios in the USA, the change in direction was stark. A lot more, ten fold at least, deaths to come.


----------



## basilio (10 April 2020)

rederob said:


> If it was true, where is the evidence?
> Looks like a media beat up doing the rounds.




As in what ? The direct copies of the reports made by the intelligence officers?  I think whoever has  back-grounded this information is already facing potential treason charges.

Certainly the Pentagon has denied any such reports exists. That will make things even more interesting if somehow copies do surface.

This story is not suggesting there was a single analyst or only one report which could have got lost. There are multiple briefings and papers circulating. 

_Concerns about what is now known to be the novel coronavirus pandemic were detailed in a November intelligence report by the military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI), according to two officials familiar with the document’s contents. 

 The report was the result of analysis of wire and computer intercepts, coupled with satellite images. It raised alarms because an out-of-control disease would pose a serious threat to U.S. forces in Asia -- forces that depend on the NCMI’s work. And it paints a picture of an American government that could have ramped up mitigation and containment efforts far earlier to prepare for a crisis poised to come home. 

 "Analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," one of the sources said of the NCMI’s report. *"It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and the White House. Wednesday night, the Pentagon issued a statement denying the "product/assessment" existed.*

MORE: CDC director downplays coronavirus models, says death toll will be 'much lower' than projected
*From that warning in November, the sources described repeated briefings through December for policy-makers and decision-makers across the federal government as well as the National Security Council at the White House. All of that culminated with a detailed explanation of the problem that appeared in the President’s Daily Brief of intelligence matters in early January, the sources said. For something to have appeared in the PDB, it would have had to go through weeks of vetting and analysis, according to people who have worked on presidential briefings in both Republican and Democratic administrations. *

 "The timeline of the intel side of this may be further back than we’re discussing," the source said of preliminary reports from Wuhan. "But this was definitely being briefed beginning at the end of November as something the military needed to take a posture on." _

_ *The NCMI report was made available widely to people authorized to access intelligence community alerts. Following the report’s release, other intelligence community bulletins began circulating through confidential channels across the government around Thanksgiving, the sources said. Those analyses said China’s leadership knew the epidemic was out of control even as it kept such crucial information from foreign governments and public health agencies. *

 "It would be a significant alarm that would have been set off by this," former Deputy Assistant Defense Secretary Mick Mulroy, now an ABC News contributor, said of the NCMI report. "And it would have been something that would be followed up by literally every intelligence-collection agency." 

 Mulroy, who previously served as a senior official at the CIA, said NCMI does serious work that senior government leaders do not ignore. 

 "Medical intelligence takes into account all source information -- imagery intelligence, human intelligence, signals intelligence," Mulroy said. "Then there’s analysis by people who know those specific areas. So for something like this to have come out, it has been reviewed by experts in the field. They’re taking together what those pieces of information mean and then looking at the potential for an international health crisis."

MORE: Trump abruptly removes inspector general named to oversee $2T in stimulus spending
 NCMI is a component of the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency. Together, the agencies’ core responsibilities are to ensure U.S. military forces have the information they need to carry out their missions -- both offensively and defensively. It is a critical priority for the Pentagon to keep American service members healthy on deployments. 
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/int...isis-early-november-sources/story?id=70031273

_


----------



## rederob (10 April 2020)

basilio said:


> As in what ? The direct copies of the reports made by the intelligence officers?  I think whoever has  back-grounded this information is already facing potential treason charges.
> 
> Certainly the Pentagon has denied any such reports exists. That will make things even more interesting if somehow copies do surface.
> 
> ...



Bas, I have read numerous articles on this theme and there is absolutely nothing credible in any of them.
Detailed medical reports of Wuhan's first coronavirus patients have been made available to international teams for study, and from memory the first admission was 1 December 2019.  It would make no sense to hide records from them unless this has been a weird and senseless Chinese conspiracy, and I doubt they are that stupid.
Had the virus been known of earlier (such as in November) it is unlikely hundreds of medical staff would have caught the virus 2 months later, and less likely that doctors would have died from it.  Surely they would have known!


----------



## jbocker (10 April 2020)

basilio said:


> The direct copies of the reports made by the intelligence officers? I think whoever has back-grounded this information is already facing potential treason charges



Julian Assange says "It wasn't me!!"


----------



## jbocker (10 April 2020)

I worry a little about how well we are doing wrt the numbers, particularly here in the West. It is said that most of our Covid-19 numbers are from Overseas travellers and in particular cruise ships. It is good that we have these under some sort of control. What is a nagging concern, are those few that are locally transmitted. These might be the few hidden seeds that could easily ignite a flood of new hosts. I hope the 'distancing' and 'stay at home' rigour holds out in the near term. and I thank all who are doing the right thing, particularly the young, whom this does not affect so tragically. The quicker we get on top of this the quicker we can ALL get out and return to normal.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (10 April 2020)

Singapore is an interesting one. On top of it until they weren't.

_For weeks, Singapore managed to keep its numbers low and trackable, with only small, easily contained clusters, without any real restrictions to daily life...... _

_The system worked until mid-March..... That's when, as the gravity of the situation became clear around the world, countries started urging their citizens to get home. Thousands returned to Singapore from countries which had not been as proactive - among them more than 500 people who unwittingly brought the virus back with them._

www.bbc.com/news-asia-52232147


> Prof Teo says what has happened in the dorms "is an indication of what will happen in some other countries, particularly the *lower middle income, less well-resourced countries"*."All you have to do is look at many countries in South Asia, South East Asia, parts of Africa - there are many communities where the living conditions are very similar to dorms." He says the need now is for all governments to look at their countries with "a frank and transparent lens" in terms of what they can do to "minimise the risk of an uncontrollable outbreak where people are living very closely packed together".


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2020)

basilio said:


> *Excellent summary* of the repeated warnings about the inevitability of another pandemic and the need to invest modest amounts to to prevent and deal with it.
> Also highlights the fact that US intelligence realised Wuhan was dealing with a disastrous epidemic in November 2019. They reported and updated the US government repeatedly on this situation through December and January.
> 
> *In fact they were advising the Trump administration for at least 6 weeks before WHO was making universal reports on the dangers posed by this epidemic*
> ...



It does beg the question, if this is a coincidental cross species infection from a bat and is causing all this angst and death, climate change is the least of our problems.
How many bats are there.
Just my opinion, don't shoot the messenger.


----------



## IFocus (10 April 2020)

jbocker said:


> I worry a little about how well we are doing wrt the numbers, particularly here in the West. It is said that most of our Covid-19 numbers are from Overseas travellers and in particular cruise ships. It is good that we have these under some sort of control. What is a nagging concern, are those few that are locally transmitted. These might be the few hidden seeds that could easily ignite a flood of new hosts. I hope the 'distancing' and 'stay at home' rigour holds out in the near term. and I thank all who are doing the right thing, particularly the young, whom this does not affect so tragically. The quicker we get on top of this the quicker we can ALL get out and return to normal.




After Easter we find out 7 to 14 days later to be honest most are doing the right thing (Mandurah) that I have seen still a few too many going to holiday homes in the area and my street.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> After Easter we find out 7 to 14 days later to be honest most are doing the right thing (Mandurah) that I have seen still a few too many going to holiday homes in the area and my street.



Too true, there is a humungus boat in the inlet, with jetskis and ski boat in tow.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (10 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> There is a humungus boat in the inlet, with jetskis and ski boat in tow.



Don't worry, it will be repossessed soon, in all likelihood


----------



## noirua (10 April 2020)




----------



## Smurf1976 (10 April 2020)

Thinking about all this some more and looking at data and so on, I'm wondering if population density is a factor?

Looking at the US it's roughly a 11:1 ratio in infections between New York versus Los Angeles. NY has a very much higher density than LA in terms of development and living arrangements so I wonder if that's a factor in NY being a much greater problem?

Also transport is substantially different with the role of public transport being far more dominant in NY than it is in LA where cars dominate as a means of getting around. All those people squashed together standing in subway trains.....


----------



## bellenuit (11 April 2020)

*Coronavirus: US officials knew of Wuhan health crisis in November, a second report claims*

*https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-covid-19-a9459021.html?utm_source=reddit.com*


----------



## bellenuit (11 April 2020)

These two stories related to the same incident are from mid-November. Whether these are related to COVID-19 or not, we may never find out, but of concern is China's initial response is to cover up.

_Their apprehension was purportedly exacerbated by Li Jifeng, a physician at Beijing Chaoyang Hospital, who said on social media she had treated the two patients on 3 November, according to the Journal. The Wednesday post, which remained online for several hours before it was deleted, indicated that one of the patients was a man who had difficulty breathing and became feverish 10 days before arriving at the Beijing hospital._


*Two people diagnosed with ‘severe and viral’ plague in China
*
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lth-virus-a9203066.html?utm_source=reddit.com
*
The Real Reason to Panic About China’s Plague Outbreak
*
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/16/china-bubonic-plague-outbreak-pandemic/
*
*


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 April 2020)

For no particular reason other than that I found it, I thought I'd post a photo of myself.

As you can see, I was well prepared for this virus - the photo was taken in 2002 and yes it's definitely me.


----------



## DB008 (11 April 2020)

*Influenza antiviral Avigan® (favipiravir) to enter Phase III trials in COVID-19 patients*​The developers of Avigan have increased production and announced a Phase III clinical trial testing its efficacy against COVID-19.​
FUJIFILM Toyama Chemical Co. Ltd. have announced a Phase III trial to evaluate the safety and efficacy of its influenza antiviral drug, Avigan® Tablet (favipiravir) for patients of COVID-19.

Avigan is approved for manufacture and sale in Japan as an influenza antiviral. It selectively inhibits the RNA polymerase of the influenza virus, an enzyme required for viral replication once human host cells are infected. COVID-19 also uses this enzyme to replicate and is classified into the same type of single-stranded RNA virus as influenza; hence, it is believed that Avigan may be effective in treating COVID-19.

Avigan is only used when there is an outbreak of novel or re-emerging influenza virus infections in which other influenza antiviral drugs are either not effective or insufficiently effective. Its production and distribution is at the discretion of Japan’s Health, Labor and Welfare Ministry, so has never been distributed in the market and is not available at hospitals and pharmacies in Japan or overseas.​
https://www.europeanpharmaceuticalr...-enter-phase-iii-trials-in-covid-19-patients/​


----------



## qldfrog (11 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> *Influenza antiviral Avigan® (favipiravir) to enter Phase III trials in COVID-19 patients*​The developers of Avigan have increased production and announced a Phase III clinical trial testing its efficacy against COVID-19.​
> FUJIFILM Toyama Chemical Co. Ltd. have announced a Phase III trial to evaluate the safety and efficacy of its influenza antiviral drug, Avigan® Tablet (favipiravir) for patients of COVID-19.
> 
> Avigan is approved for manufacture and sale in Japan as an influenza antiviral. It selectively inhibits the RNA polymerase of the influenza virus, an enzyme required for viral replication once human host cells are infected. COVID-19 also uses this enzyme to replicate and is classified into the same type of single-stranded RNA virus as influenza; hence, it is believed that Avigan may be effective in treating COVID-19.
> ...



Could be wrong but i think i remember reading that the french trial by the Marseille controversial professor use BOTH the antimalarial product and this chemical  under another name


----------



## qldfrog (11 April 2020)

Very worrying and sadly confirming my suspicions about EVER finding a vaccine.from the ABC coronavirus thread..no point sharing link as info disappears from the front
I quote
_South Korean officials have reported 91 patients thought cleared of the new coronavirus had tested positive again, in what they call "reactivated" cases of COVID-19._
Hopes have to focus on treatments IMHO


----------



## DB008 (11 April 2020)

Racism towards foreigners in China is reaching new highs. 'Taking out the trash' and bashing anyone who isn't Chinese is going bonkers.

Any foreign company producing medical supplies in China  (eg 3M) - products manufactured in China were to be kept in China and then any Chinese linked business around the world were ordered to purchase medical supplies and take them back to China. Screw the host country, China more important.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/sec...edical-supplies-to-china-20200326-p54e8n.html​
Shows China's true colours and how reliant the world is on China. The West sold out to China.

Surprised that a hashtag #Boycott China has started.

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6148570085001​


----------



## rederob (11 April 2020)

CanSino's proposed vaccine seems to be ahead of the curve.


----------



## Sir Burr (11 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> Racism towards foreigners in China is reaching new highs.




Meanwhile in Phuket: _"disgruntled locals saying they were ready to ‘take up arms’ and take on the dirty foreign tourists
_
https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/...xpatriate-population-has-reason-to-be-nervous


----------



## rederob (11 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> Racism towards foreigners in China is reaching new highs. 'Taking out the trash' and bashing anyone who isn't Chinese is going bonkers.
> 
> Any foreign company producing medical supplies in China  (eg 3M) - products manufactured in China were to be kept in China and then any Chinese linked business around the world were ordered to purchase medical supplies and take them back to China. Screw the host country, China more important.
> 
> ...



You seem to forget that early on in Australia, Chinese restaurants were closing their doors despite none of their employees having had visited China at the time the virus was known about.  It was rampant racism ruling pragmatism.
Then you rely on old news about local Chinese sending much needed medical supplies to help Wuhan help tens of thousands of infected people, while we had only *tens*.  Even in the USA some States are sending equipment to New York because their need is greater.
But the real hypocrisy is that when China has a chance to return the favour, you want to make it a dirty political game.  I suggest you have a chat to Twiggy who will sort you out real smart.


----------



## Joules MM1 (11 April 2020)

#sweden
this is the reason we go for lockdown locally


----------



## rederob (11 April 2020)

Asia took the virus more seriously than the west, having had several flu epidemics to counter in recent decades.  




Were it not for the blight of cruise ship infections, Australia and New Zealand would have kept a better lid on the virus than all other nations except for, perhaps, Taiwan.


----------



## jbocker (11 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Asia took the virus more seriously than the west, having had several flu epidemics to counter in recent decades.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Superb graphic, shows the world magnitude. You mention Taiwan I have been compiling statistics of populations similar to Australia, I will post soon but there is little to compare. Pity North Korea are not publishing stats as they are nearest wrt population size.


----------



## DB008 (11 April 2020)

rederob said:


> You seem to forget that early on in Australia, Chinese restaurants were closing their doors despite none of their employees having had visited China at the time the virus was known about.  It was rampant racism ruling pragmatism.
> Then you rely on old news about local Chinese sending much needed medical supplies to help Wuhan help tens of thousands of infected people, while we had only *tens*.  Even in the USA some States are sending equipment to New York because their need is greater.
> But the real hypocrisy is that when China has a chance to return the favour, you want to make it a dirty political game. I suggest you have a chat to Twiggy who will sort you out real smart.




China kept a lid on how serious this was and blindsided the world. Then they scoop up medical supplies under our noses. You are in denial.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> China kept a lid on how serious this was and blindsided the world. Then they scoop up medical supplies under our noses. You are in denial.



Yes, that's what you believe because you read crap.
Why not make informed comments?


----------



## DB008 (11 April 2020)

Sure Rob


----------



## jbocker (11 April 2020)

Comparison of countries similar population. N Korea stats would be handy. I look at Taiwan and compare to that (a little)


----------



## jbocker (11 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Very worrying and sadly confirming my suspicions about EVER finding a vaccine.from the ABC coronavirus thread..no point sharing link as info disappears from the front
> I quote
> _South Korean officials have reported 91 patients thought cleared of the new coronavirus had tested positive again, in what they call "reactivated" cases of COVID-19._
> Hopes have to focus on treatments IMHO



Awful News but Awfully suspicious, only because of what are the chances of getting it twice when the 'outbreaks' has been so well managed. Maybe the recovery tests were inaccurate.
 It implies that a persons immunity is not a reliable ongoing defence and once you have it, it may keep reappearing for a long time. Malaria never leaves a sufferer (by my limited understanding).
If this is the case, then we have a problem of immense magnitude. (My limited Opinion)


----------



## jbocker (11 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> For no particular reason other than that I found it, I thought I'd post a photo of myself.
> 
> As you can see, I was well prepared for this virus - the photo was taken in 2002 and yes it's definitely me.
> 
> View attachment 102162



I can understand Smurf! The Mrs asked me to change a nappy once too.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 April 2020)

Or like Chicken Pox. Once you have it, it never leaves you....comes back as shingles.
But if you get the vaccine then you are safe.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> Sure Rob



Why not use actual evidence about what was hidden, or show that China has been a poor corporate citizen and has been denying the rest of the world essential medical equipment or supplies?
Can you do that?


----------



## orr (11 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> Then they scoop up supplies under our noses.  denial.???




If you've ever read 'Catch-22' DB you most certainly haven't absorbed the major theme.
And that book was written at the nadir of modern Chinese history.

The 'West' wrote the text(s) and learnt nothing.

To all you other blokes ...Where's all the 'G5' up to date wizz bang info(wars) to keep me up on what's really going on.... 


(orr's that close to sweden he can taste it)


----------



## jbocker (11 April 2020)

As one of the other blokes, Not sure I follow you @orr. Do you mean G5 - made up of 5 emerging economies of the 21st century: Brazil, China, India, Mexico, and South Africa.
or I suspect some ?gaming technology.


----------



## Knobby22 (11 April 2020)

UK figures  are looking awful.


----------



## IFocus (11 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> UK figures  are looking awful.




Sure is, results from  lack of early response perhaps?

What is with the 5G thing being a cause of or contributor to Corona anyone have something substantial?


----------



## bellenuit (11 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> Sure is, results from  lack of early response perhaps?
> 
> What is with the 5G thing being a cause of or contributor to Corona anyone have something substantial?




No basis whatsoever. Just another made up thing from the usual conspiracy theory nutters.


----------



## Joules MM1 (11 April 2020)

excerpt:
It is important to mention that various studies have shown that in animal models with bleomycin-induced lung injury, vitamin B3 (niacin or nicotinamide) is highly effective in preventing lung tissue damage [7]. It might be a wise approach to supply this food supplement to the COVID-19 patients.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-0530-3
reviewed/cited


----------



## rederob (11 April 2020)

This time tomorrow the USA will take MAGA to new heights for all the wrong reasons: Most deaths due to COVID-19 and almost 3 times as many infections as the next highest nation.
I have looked at where the numbers are, and more importantly where they are not.  Places like Portland Maine, and Reno Nevada appear to have zero infections despite having populations of about 30k and 60k respectively.  Portland Maine is a major cruise stop and it's a bit hard to work out how they could have dodged a bullet.  I have a sneaking suspicion that there are many US cities where the virus is either under reported, or simply not reported so far.  Either way, the USA is well on its way to 1M infections and 50k dead.
I hope for America's sake that their industry can crank out PPE and test kits to bring their numbers down, but while too many watch and believe Fox news, that might not be enough.


----------



## bellenuit (11 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> Sure is, results from  lack of early response perhaps?
> 
> What is with the 5G thing being a cause of or contributor to Corona anyone have something substantial?





https://www.news18.com/news/world/h...-arson-and-harassment-in-britain-2573723.html

*How a Virus Conspiracy Theory Fueled Arson and Harassment in Britain*


----------



## hja (11 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> https://www.news18.com/news/world/h...-arson-and-harassment-in-britain-2573723.html
> 
> *How a Virus Conspiracy Theory Fueled Arson and Harassment in Britain*



There's a bloke around this forum that protects himself from such emissions by wearing a tin hat (you can tell from his profile). Well if the chavs and other folk followed through on proper folktale precautions like tin-hat wearing, they wouldn't have to burn down the towers!

Actually Trump seemed to endorse the trial of chloroquine at a stage.

Bonne nuit, bellenuit


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Or like Chicken Pox. Once you have it, it never leaves you....comes back as shingles.
> But if you get the vaccine then you are safe.



Maybe the virus is attaching to the antibody?


----------



## hja (11 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe the virus is attaching to the antibody?



I'm confused as to what that even means. I thought an antibody eventually destroys or weakens a virus cell and that's the reason why the BCG tuberculosis vaccine is going to be used in small doses on Australian healthcare workers to boost their immune system responses.
But how much exposure one gets to the virus would determine how severe the insult would be to one's body. So I don't know how much anti-kryptonite serum a healthcare worker would need. That's why those NY doctors are/were in the worst position, being surrounded by plagued patients all day long.


----------



## grah33 (12 April 2020)

Hitchens seems to think it's all bull, but i should check properly ...


----------



## grah33 (12 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> UK figures  are looking awful.



some out there think they're the same as before the virus.  that people dying aren't dying from the virus, even though they have it.  e.g. Hitchens.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 April 2020)

grah33 said:


> some out there think they're the same as before the virus.  that people dying aren't dying from the virus, even though they have it.  e.g. Hitchens.



Even the younger ones? And the temporary morgues as the main morgue is overflowing ...and the temporary direct burials in mass graves in New York of thousands of people ? I think anyone would have to admit the virus is having an effect.


----------



## Logique (12 April 2020)

31 March 2020 - *Teachers Urge Government To Reopen Schools Before Students Learn To Think For Themselves*
https://babylonbee.com/news/teachers-warn-parents-arent-properly-equipped-to-indoctrinate-children
_"U.S.—Teachers at [US] government schools have raised their concerns that the recent closure of their institutions will have a damaging effect on students..."We must reopen as soon as possible -- before they regain their ability to have independent thoughts," said New York 4th-grade teacher Ms. Jenny Mudd...
...Teachers have further pointed out that parents aren't properly equipped to indoctrinate their children with government propaganda..."
_


----------



## moXJO (12 April 2020)

US as a % are still under Italy.

Meanwhile China is pushing further into the south China seas. 

Oh and just so we know who the CCP sympathizers are:

*China makes Italy buy back its personal protective gear during coronavirus pandemic: Report*

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...ctive-gear-during-coronavirus-pandemic-report

Make no mistake that China hid this and that WHO is sucking at China's teat.

*China and the WHO's chief: Hold them both accountable for pandemic*

*https://thehill.com/opinion/interna...chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic*

*How China’s fake news machine is rewriting the history of Covid-19, even as the pandemic unfolds*
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/04/china-fake-news-coronavirus-164652

I often wonder what some people's ties are that post here.


----------



## hja (12 April 2020)

Logique said:


> 31 March 2020 - *Teachers Urge Government To Reopen Schools Before Students Learn To Think For Themselves*
> https://babylonbee.com/news/teachers-warn-parents-arent-properly-equipped-to-indoctrinate-children
> _"U.S.—Teachers at [US] government schools have raised their concerns that the recent closure of their institutions will have a damaging effect on students..."We must reopen as soon as possible -- before they regain their ability to have independent thoughts," said New York 4th-grade teacher Ms. Jenny Mudd...
> ...Teachers have further pointed out that parents aren't properly equipped to indoctrinate their children with government propaganda..."_



Teachers with a sense of humour... they're probably parents themselves.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2020)

Logique said:


> 31 March 2020 - *Teachers Urge Government To Reopen Schools Before Students Learn To Think For Themselves*
> https://babylonbee.com/news/teachers-warn-parents-arent-properly-equipped-to-indoctrinate-children
> _"U.S.—Teachers at [US] government schools have raised their concerns that the recent closure of their institutions will have a damaging effect on students..."We must reopen as soon as possible -- before they regain their ability to have independent thoughts," said New York 4th-grade teacher Ms. Jenny Mudd...
> ...Teachers have further pointed out that parents aren't properly equipped to indoctrinate their children with government propaganda..."_



Why are you quoting from a site that literally makes up stories to continue their satirical stance, which is what they exist for?
I hope you do not think it is real news.


----------



## Purple XS2 (12 April 2020)

I take it as given that contagion and fatality statisitics from the PRC are 'illustrative' rather than factual. As the originator of this thread @DB008 said:
_As we are dealing with China (CCR), l would add a zero (at a minimum) onto those numbers because the CCR lie to save face._
Subsequent analysis seems to hold up that assessment.

So now? The assertion that Chinese policies have stiffled transmission, except for nationals returning from outside; I presume to be false. Slowed it down? Sure. Ceased? Rubbish.

This assertion I take to be a managed narrative to explain the fact that in order to restart the economy, there _must_ be a second wave of COVID-19, in China.

This time, the managed narrative will have it that it's other countries' fault. The Chinese government's new policy would seem to be that xenophobia is an allowable release valve, lest the people think of finding blame with the government.

The internal and international consequences of this policy have the potential to relegate all that has transpired in recent months to a mere prologue. 

To quote Churchill (November 1942, after 2nd El Alamein):
_"...this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. but it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."_


----------



## bellenuit (12 April 2020)

grah33 said:


> some out there think they're the same as before the virus.  that people dying aren't dying from the virus, even though they have it.  e.g. Hitchens.




Do people actually die from the virus or from complications caused by the virus? In some cases it may be hard to know whether the death should be attributed to the virus or not, particularly if the person had severe medical conditions prior to getting the virus. Would the person have died anyway or was it the virus that pushed him/her over the edge?

The figures as to what is virus related will always be a bit fuzzy. It might be reasonable to say that anyone who died from any existing condition after they contacted the virus died from the virus. Although this will overstate things on the high side for the reason above, countering that are the people who have died from existing conditions that were exasperated by the virus (thus should be attributed to the virus) but were never tested or tested false negative so are not classified as a virus related death.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2020)

Purple XS2 said:


> _As we are dealing with China (CCR), l would add a zero (at a minimum) onto those numbers because the CCR lie to save face._
> Subsequent analysis seems to hold up that assessment.



Please provide that analysis.


Purple XS2 said:


> So now? The assertion that Chinese policies have stiffled transmission, except for nationals returning from outside; I presume to be false. Slowed it down? Sure. Ceased? Rubbish.



Your evidence is what?


Purple XS2 said:


> This time, the managed narrative will have it that it's other countries' fault. The Chinese government's new policy would seem to be that xenophobia is an allowable release valve, lest the people think of finding blame with the government.



That's mere conjecture based on Sinophobia.  The majority of new cases are returning nationals.  
Unfortunately, however, many non-Asians are as identifiable there as are Muslims in our community, and there will be a minority of ignorant people who make them targets for abuse/attack.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Do people actually die from the virus or from complications caused by the virus? In some cases it may be hard to know whether the death should be attributed to the virus or not, particularly if the person had severe medical conditions prior to getting the virus. Would the person have died anyway or was it the virus that pushed him/her over the edge?



It's possible different jurisdictions might consider the initial cause of hospital admission led to death, rather than subsequent infection by COVID-19. 
I do know that in the February international study of over 1000 candidates that *every death* was due to *sepsis *induced by COVID-19.  Maybe there are later studies that show a lesser rate.
A major issue picked up from overseas anecdote is that many deaths in aged care facilities are not being ascribed to COVID-19 as they were never provided an opportunity to transfer to a hospital for critical care and, therefore, no clinical diagnosis was made.


----------



## Purple XS2 (12 April 2020)

_


rederob said:



			Please provide that analysis.
		
Click to expand...


https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...d/news-story/c66694b54ca73fdb039c3dbaa5f1cd48
_
And widely cited elsewhere.
Observing the rapidity of the spread in Europe and the USA, that the official Chinese figures have so low throughout this saga surely testifies to their unbelievability? 
As for the veracity of official Chinese data, I remind you the PRC was still telling the WHO in January that there was minimal evidence of person-to-person transmission.
By end December 2019, doctors in Taiwan were being informed by their mainland colleagues of illness amongst medical staff in Wuhan.



rederob said:


> That's mere conjecture based on Sinophobia





My point being that Chinese government sanctioned Xenophobia, and accusations of Sinophobia as the standard response to any criticism of PRC policy, are the new norm.
Actually, the latter has been normal for quite a while. I expect it to intensify.

And dare I add: QED?

P


----------



## rederob (12 April 2020)

Purple XS2 said:


> Observing the rapidity of the spread in Europe and the USA, that the official Chinese figures have so low throughout this saga surely testifies to their unbelievability?



So, a guess, but no actual analysis.


Purple XS2 said:


> As for the veracity of official Chinese data, I remind you the PRC was still telling the WHO in January that there was minimal evidence of person-to-person transmission.



Please offer the evidence you have that says otherwise.


Purple XS2 said:


> By end December 2019, doctors in Taiwan were being informed by their mainland colleagues of illness amongst medical staff in Wuhan.



Evidence?


Purple XS2 said:


> My point being that Chinese government sanctioned Xenophobia, and accusations of Sinophobia as the standard response to any criticism of PRC policy, are the new norm.



Only if you are ignorant.


----------



## moXJO (12 April 2020)

Remembering  Rob blocked me and didn't see my original posts that disputes everything that he has posted with evidence.

Just like the CCP he has to block the undeniable truth.


----------



## dutchie (12 April 2020)




----------



## rederob (12 April 2020)

dutchie said:


>



Would have been more informative if you posted direct from Breitbart.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (12 April 2020)

On Friday, the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations published research revealing the breadth and scale of the race. "As of April 8, 2020, 115 vaccine candidates are in varying stages of development", the study, published in the journal _Nature Reviews Drug Discovery_, disclosed. Of those, 78 are "confirmed as active", with the status of the remaining 37 hidden from public view.

The study found a wide range of technology platforms were being used, including traditional and novel approaches. While most are developing solutions that will be delivered via injection, there are also pills and nose drops in the pipeline.

Almost all aim to induce "neutralising antibodies" within the recipient.

Most of the active projects are still in the exploratory or preclinical stages. However, five teams have vaccines in clinical development. At least two of those are administering trial vaccines to volunteers in the US and China. Moderna, an American biotech company, was able to start clinical testing of its vaccine just 63 days after the genetic sequence of COVID-19 was first released by China via the World Health Organisation. 

Of the 78 vaccines in development, 72 per cent are being pursued by industry. They include big pharmaceutical firms such as Janssen, GlaxoSmithKine and Pfizer, but most are smaller biotech firms. The remaining 28 per cent are being led by academic, public sector, and other not-for-profit organisations. Of the confirmed active vaccine candidates, 46 per cent are in North America, and 18 per cent each in China, Asia and Australia and Europe....

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...his-century-s-space-race-20200411-p54j0p.html


----------



## rederob (12 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> On Friday, the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations published research revealing the breadth and scale of the race. "As of April 8, 2020, 115 vaccine candidates are in varying stages of development", the study, published in the journal _Nature Reviews Drug Discovery_, disclosed. Of those, 78 are "confirmed as active", with the status of the remaining 37 hidden from public view.
> 
> The study found a wide range of technology platforms were being used, including traditional and novel approaches. While most are developing solutions that will be delivered via injection, there are also pills and nose drops in the pipeline.
> 
> ...



Here's the link to this landscape:


----------



## IFocus (12 April 2020)

Note that Australia's chief medical officer has stated there may never be a vaccine for the Corona virus!

Just think about that for a moment!


----------



## moXJO (12 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> Note that Australia's chief medical officer has stated there may never be a vaccine for the Corona virus!
> 
> Just think about that for a moment!



Eventually we get heard immunity the natural way. Drugs that alleviate the symptoms can lower the risks.


----------



## grah33 (12 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Do people actually die from the virus or from complications caused by the virus? In some cases it may be hard to know whether the death should be attributed to the virus or not, particularly if the person had severe medical conditions prior to getting the virus. Would the person have died anyway or was it the virus that pushed him/her over the edge?
> 
> The figures as to what is virus related will always be a bit fuzzy. It might be reasonable to say that anyone who died from any existing condition after they contacted the virus died from the virus. Although this will overstate things on the high side for the reason above, countering that are the people who have died from existing conditions that were exasperated by the virus (thus should be attributed to the virus) but were never tested or tested false negative so are not classified as a virus related death.




I don't know , it  seems very fuzzy.  The testing too might be really messed.


----------



## grah33 (12 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Even the younger ones? And the temporary morgues as the main morgue is overflowing ...and the temporary direct burials in mass graves in New York of thousands of people ? I think anyone would have to admit the virus is having an effect.



Yeah okay.   I suppose another one is the number of people dying on the cruise ships.  I'll have to check and see


----------



## noirua (12 April 2020)

*Confirmed coronavirus cases in South Africa *

*

11 April 2020
*






In Kenya, health workers have been testing people who have been put in quarantine


----------



## DB008 (13 April 2020)

rederob said:


> That's mere conjecture based on Sinophobia. The majority of new cases are returning nationals.





Sinophobia - *Anti-Chinese sentiment* or *Sinophobia* (from Late Latin _Sinae_ "China" and Greek φόβος, _phobos_, "fear") is a sentiment against China, its people, overseas Chinese, or Chinese culture.[4] It often targets Chinese minorities living outside of China and involves immigration, development of national identity in neighbouring countries, disparity of wealth, the past central tributary system, majority-minority relations, imperialist legacies, and racism.[5][6][7] Its opposite is Sinophilia.

Calling a spade a spade, isn't Sinophobic. 

Uyghurs (Muslim) prison camps in China
Any company that sets up shop in China - Intellectual Property (IP) is stolen
Woeful human rights
Numerous environmental issues
SARS, Swine Flu, Bird Flu, SARS-Cov2


----------



## rederob (13 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> Calling a spade a spade, isn't Sinophobic.



?
Misusing language is not helpful.
You have confused how the people of a nation are perceived rather than the perpetrators of the cause.
However, in this case there continues to be a stream of poorly informed posts related to very different issues from those you nominate.  Even for example well demonstrated by you not knowing that Swine Flu became a pandemic due to woeful US prevention strategies: China was not in the picture.


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## SirRumpole (13 April 2020)

rederob said:


> ?
> Misusing language is not helpful.
> You have confused how the people of a nation are perceived rather than the perpetrators of the cause.
> However, in this case there continues to be a stream of poorly informed posts related to very different issues from those you nominate.  Even for example well demonstrated by you not knowing that Swine Flu became a pandemic due to woeful US prevention strategies: China was not in the picture.




"Spanish Flu" is still ok is it ?


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## rederob (13 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> "Spanish Flu" is still ok is it ?



There were no conventions for naming pandemics back then, so the name stuck.
If you asked someone where H1N1 originated you would probably get the wrong answer.  I asked 3 people before posting - they weren't sure.
Then I asked them if they knew where the swine flu originated, and they quickly said "China" instead of Mexico.


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## sptrawler (13 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> Note that Australia's chief medical officer has stated there may never be a vaccine for the Corona virus!
> 
> Just think about that for a moment!



From what I have read, it has a HIV component and as far as I know there is no vaccine for that.
What if it stays latent in your system, untill your immune system is comprised, then the pneumonia presents?
That IMO would explain some of the panic, by the authorities.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## DB008 (13 April 2020)

*Beijing tried to make German officials praise China over coronavirus outbreak – report*​

Chinese representatives tried to influence German government officials to give positive comments about Beijing’s management of the coronavirus outbreak, Germany’s Die Welt newspaper reported Sunday.

The virus first emerged in the Chinese city of Wuhan in December and Beijing has been criticised by some — most notably US President Donald Trump — over its initial handling of the crisis.

Senior officials and staff at German government ministries were invited “to speak in positive terms about China’s management of the coronavirus,” Die Welt said, citing a confidential foreign ministry document.

Trump and his administration had made a point of referring to COVID-19 as the “Chinese virus” or the “Wuhan virus”, infuriating Beijing.

The US president has also cast doubt on the accuracy of official Chinese virus figures and accused the World Health Organization of pro-China bias.​

https://hongkongfp.com/2020/04/12/b...0MtOaTLLi4ig2dLTCRv1Bff7Zy7xG-8uhKeaTQrxKccfk​


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## DB008 (13 April 2020)

Like booting China out of the NBN. Good!


*UK spy agencies urge China rethink once Covid-19 crisis is over*​MI6 and MI5 expect Beijing to be more assertive and want government to consider tighter control of strategic industries

Britain’s intelligence community believes the UK needs to reassess its relationship with China after the coronavirus crisis subsides and consider if tighter controls are needed over high-tech and other strategic industries.

They reckon China will become more assertive in defending its one-party model as having successfully tackled the pandemic and that Boris Johnson and other ministers will have to take a “realistic view” and consider how the UK responds.

Issues being aired are whether the UK wants to restrict takeovers of key companies in high-tech areas such as digital communications and artificial intelligence, and whether it should reduce Chinese students’ access to research at universities and elsewhere.

But MI6, the foreign intelligence service, and MI5, its domestic equivalent, still believe it was correct to allow Huawei access to Britain’s 5G network, capped at 35% – a decision made by Johnson in January – although the new emphasis on China may make that decision increasingly hard to defend as Conservative rebels press for a rethink.

A Whitehall source said the UK needs to ensure diversity of supply “in 6G and 7G” and, more broadly, to protect “the crown jewels” of technology, research and innovation.

MI6 is also understood to have told ministers that China was significantly under-reporting the number of coronavirus cases and deaths in January and February, echoing similar briefings given by the CIA to the White House.

Intelligence agencies have been urging a greater emphasis on Chinese activity for months, and the announcement of Ken McCallum as the new director general of MI5 at the end of last month was accompanied by a promise that the organisation would focus more clearly on Beijing.​
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ge-china-rethink-once-covid-19-crisis-is-over​


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## DB008 (13 April 2020)

*Coronavirus: Critics ask why China allowed flights*
*out of Hubei during outbreak*​
Now, critics have also suggested that China is partly to blame for the virus spreading globally because it continued to allow flights to Hubei for its own interests – while taking greater action to stop the spread within China.

Addressing China’s President Xi Jinping directly, historian Niall Ferguson wrote in an op-ed: “... after it became clear that there was a full-blown epidemic spreading from Wuhan to the rest of Hubei province, why did you cut off travel from Hubei to the rest of China – on January 23 – but not from Hubei to the rest of the world?”

Ferguson’s accusations refer to China continuing to allow international travel long past January 23, the date when it imposed serious restrictions on travel within China in an attempt to quarantine Wuhan from the rest of the country.

Behind the US, China is the world’s second-largest air travel market.

By early February, airlines around the world had cut flights to China, setting off economic shocks in the industry and stranding travelers. Infections climbed past 17,000 in over 20 countries by February 3.

Throughout January and February, China imposed lockdowns on its cities as the virus spread internally, but continued to allow international travel abroad.​
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/fe...-allowed-flights-out-of-Hubei-during-outbreak​


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## DB008 (13 April 2020)

*Beijing tightens grip over coronavirus research, amid*
*US-China row on virus origin*​Hong Kong (CNN) China has imposed restrictions on the publication of academic research on the origins of the novel coronavirus, according to a central government directive and online notices published by two Chinese universities, that have since been removed from the web.

Under the new policy, all academic papers on Covid-19 will be subject to extra vetting before being submitted for publication. Studies on the origin of the virus will receive extra scrutiny and must be approved by central government officials, according to the now-deleted posts.

A medical expert in Hong Kong who collaborated with mainland researchers to publish a clinical analysis of Covid-19 cases in an international medical journal said his work did not undergo such vetting in February.

The increased scrutiny appears to be the latest effort by the Chinese government to control the narrative on the origins of the coronavirus pandemic, which has claimed more than 100,000 lives and sickened 1.7 million people worldwide since it first broke out in the Chinese city of Wuhan in December.

Since late January, Chinese researchers have published a series of Covid-19 studies in influential international medical journals. Some findings about early coronavirus cases -- such as when human-to-human transition first appeared -- have raised questions over the official government account of the outbreak and sparked controversy on Chinese social media.

And now, Chinese authorities appear to be tightening their grip on the publication of Covid-19 research.

A Chinese researcher who spoke on condition of anonymity due to fear of retaliation said the move was a worrying development that would likely obstruct important scientific research.

"I think it is a coordinated effort from (the) Chinese government to control (the) narrative, and paint it as if the outbreak did not originate in China," the researcher told CNN. "And I don't think they will really tolerate any objective study to investigate the origination of this disease."

CNN has reached out to China's Foreign Ministry for comment.​
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/12/asia/china-coronavirus-research-restrictions-intl-hnk/index.html​
China recorded deaths ~ 3200

Italy - almost 20,000
Spain - 17,209
France - 14,393
UK - 10,612

China - 3200

Yeah right.


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## bellenuit (13 April 2020)

*As China’s imported cases rise, so does xenophobia*
China’s health ministry on Sunday reported a jump in new coronavirus infections, most of which were detected in people returning from other countries.

The country recorded 162 new cases for Saturday, including 63 cases of people who have no symptoms. More than 100 of the new cases were imported — something Beijing has focused on as a threat to its containment efforts since it got domestic cases under control.

International flights are still drastically limited and nearly all foreigners barred from entering. But the country is also seeing growing displays of xenophobia.

African officials, citing “inhuman treatment being meted out” to their citizens abroad, are calling for Beijing to take action.

*Details:* African traders and students say they have faced racial widespread discrimination, including being evicted from apartments and forced to sleep on the streets, after five Nigerians who frequented a Guangzhou restaurant tested positive for the coronavirus.

Guangzhou authorities are said to have targeted Africans for mandatory testing and quarantine, regardless of travel history.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/...te=1&user_id=b29bbb2d833f3345588186dd5529dd6f


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## bellenuit (13 April 2020)




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## rederob (13 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> Yeah right.



Not much you posted was credible.
Not sure why you bother.
There is a mountain of information showing how silly some of the posted comments were.


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## rederob (13 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *Details:* African traders and students say they have faced racial widespread discrimination, including being evicted from apartments and forced to sleep on the streets, after five Nigerians who frequented a Guangzhou restaurant tested positive for the coronavirus.



Of course Australia acted promptly to counter early Sinophobia that led to local Chinese been mistreated and their businesses shunned.
And our Border Force acted with great compassion to demand cruise ships immediately leave territorial waters and bad luck if sick crew died on the return journey.
Maybe you should ask many local Muslims how they feel about their ongoing treatment in Australia?


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## wayneL (13 April 2020)

it's really interesting to observe who the CCP shills are on this forum.

It's also interesting to see the correlation with other issues,


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## hja (13 April 2020)

When I realised that there was some missing punctuation above to gracefully separate "Ghana" from the ambassador's name, I figured the same could be applied to the summoned Shiting Wang.


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## moXJO (13 April 2020)

rederob said:


> There were no conventions for naming pandemics back then, so the name stuck.
> If you asked someone where H1N1 originated you would probably get the wrong answer.  I asked 3 people before posting - they weren't sure.
> Then I asked them if they knew where the swine flu originated, and they quickly said "China" instead of Mexico.



China wanted it named Mexican flu.
We also have african swine fever which is recent.
Middle East respiratory syndrome, recent.

Do you know China singled out Mexicans during the swine flu. Treated them a lot worse then Chinese are being treated now.

https://supchina.com/2020/02/07/mex...xtraordinary-hypocrisy-of-xinhua-news-agency/


http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1895659,00.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/world/asia/05china.html

Then we have the resident shill saying China should be believed on their figures. Despite history showing otherwise.

https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2016/03/26/fudge-ocracy

https://www.asianscientist.com/2020/03/features/smu-rast-gdp-fudge-china/

https://fortune.com/2015/12/14/china-fake-economic-data/


> Local officials from China’s key Northeast region have reportedly admitted that they faked economic data over the past few years when the real numbers were much lower.
> 
> Several officials have said they’ve significantly overstated data ranging from fiscal revenue and household income to GDP, and that this was a reason why the drop in the figures appears to have been so dramatic this year, reported _China Daily _while citing further reports from China’s state-run Xinhua News Agency.





Then we have the virus:

https://www.barrons.com/articles/ch...ns-its-coronavirus-numbers-do-too-51581622840



> _Barron’s_ re-created the regression analysis of total deaths caused by the virus, which first emerged in the central Chinese city of Wuhan at the end of last year, and found similarly high variance. We ran it by Melody Goodman, associate professor of biostatistics at New York University’s School of Global Public Health.
> 
> 
> “I have never in my years seen an r-squared of 0.99,” Goodman says. “As a statistician, it makes me question the data.”
> ...





And these are the sites that were not really digging into the b.s. that the CCP puts out.

And on the b.s. the CCP is spreading:

https://fortune.com/2020/03/30/china-coronavirus-propaganda-has-shifted-dramatically/



> According to a new report by cybersecurity firm Recorded Future, Chinese authorities have directed two abrupt shifts in the English language media it produces. The first shift skirted facts about the disease’s spread and origins in favor of social media posts that praised the response of the government and President Xi Jinping. Then, starting in late February, such posts took on a more aggressive tone, accusing the West of xenophobia and casting doubts on the virus’s origins.
> 
> The shift in message can be seen in the social media posts below, provided by Recorded Future. The first is from early January and the second from Feb. 29:
> 
> ...





https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/3...-what-sticks-propaganda-blame-ccp-xi-jinping/



> _Axios on HBO_ aired an interview it had conducted with Cui Tiankai, the Chinese ambassador to the United States, nearly a week earlier in which Cui reiterated his original Feb. 9 assertion that spreading coronavirus-related conspiracy theories would be “crazy” and “very harmful.” Cui was referring, albeit indirectly, to claims that the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 was developed in a military lab, perhaps in the United States, promoted by fellow Chinese officials. He particularly appeared to distance himself from the recently touted conspiracy by a spokesperson from the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) that the U.S. military may have brought the coronavirus to China, retorting, “I don’t have the responsibility to explain everybody’s view to you.”
> 
> 
> The statement kicked off speculation over a possible split or spat within the MFA: that between the well-respected Cui and his less polished colleagues Zhao Lijian and Hua Chunying, both spokespeople for the MFA; Zhao and Hua have been tweeting that the United States may be the source of the virus—and thus the appropriate target for all coronavirus-related blame.
> ...




*CHINA IS REWRITING CORONAVIRUS HISTORY AND NOBODY WILL STOP IT*

*https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publi...g-coronavirus-history-and-nobody-will-stop-it*



This site is on current crackdowns or b.s. from CCP.
https://freedomhouse.org/report/chi...ulletin-coronavirus-era-repression-propaganda


> *An ever-changing coronavirus propaganda: narrative*
> Chinese state media coverage of the 2019 novel coronavirus outbreak has gone through several phases since the first cases of the SARS-like illness emerged in Wuhan in late December.
> 
> 
> ...


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## bellenuit (13 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Of course Australia acted promptly to counter early Sinophobia that led to local Chinese been mistreated and their businesses shunned.
> And our Border Force acted with great compassion to demand cruise ships immediately leave territorial waters and bad luck if sick crew died on the return journey.
> Maybe you should ask many local Muslims how they feel about their ongoing treatment in Australia?




What’s your point? Xenophobia happens everywhere, but when it is in China we should not mention it?


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## qldfrog (13 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> From what I have read, it has a HIV component and as far as I know there is no vaccine for that.
> What if it stays latent in your system, untill your immune system is comprised, then the pneumonia presents?
> That IMO would explain some of the panic, by the authorities.
> Just my thoughts.



read some news the COVID19 is actually attacking TCells a la HIV, not a good news and wondering how healed people are
Now, let's be prosaic: in absence of vaccine: a pipe dream and if it stays latent in the body maybe hiding into the lymphatic systems as other viruses do, we might just have added another sickness to our long list and may see reduced life expectancy when weakened etc;
It can not be eradicated now, i think we can agree on this ,so the key is : can we heal and build immunity, this is the long term game..the current drama in a way is a temporary state in a more scary long term view;


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## Dona Ferentes (13 April 2020)

_Finally, Coronavirus random tests show only 1% infected: Herd Immunity is tiny_

http://joannenova.com.au/2020/04/fi...s-show-only-1-infected-herd-immunity-is-tiny/


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## Knobby22 (13 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> _Finally, Coronavirus random tests show only 1% infected: Herd Immunity is tiny_
> 
> http://joannenova.com.au/2020/04/fi...s-show-only-1-infected-herd-immunity-is-tiny/



I suspected as much but that is extremely bad news, as is the previous post. Crap.

Australia has to try to beat this and wait for a vaccine (which is hopefully coming).

The European and USA tactic of herd immunity is not going to work. Too many deaths. ...and if you catch it, you will likely have a shortened life span, even if you are asymptomatic. 

And with the stock market and the economy; I am now back to being full blown bear as well as personally scared for  my and my family's health.

The only good thing on the horizon is the testing going on with some preliminary hope for treatments. I  am  getting a bit of confidence on this front, especially hydroxychlorifine.


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## rederob (13 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I am getting a bit of confidence on this front, especially hydroxychlorifine.



Here's some recent news - a lot more work is needed to determine if the treatment will be of true benefit.


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## Knobby22 (13 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Here's some recent news - a lot more work is needed to determine if the treatment will be of true benefit.



The French study will sort it out one way or the other.


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## bellenuit (13 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> _Finally, Coronavirus random tests show only 1% infected: Herd Immunity is tiny_
> 
> http://joannenova.com.au/2020/04/fi...s-show-only-1-infected-herd-immunity-is-tiny/




Maybe someone would like to check my logic and my math.

Assume there is no vaccine discovered and no drugs prove effective cures and assume figures from Worldometers are correct in saying that Austria has had 350 deaths to date. I have read that herd immunity starts to kick in at 60% and is very effective at 90%. Then lets take a mid-point of 75% infected as providing reasonable immunity. Then if the 350 deaths are from an infection rate of 1%, to reach reasonable herd immunity of 75%, Austria will incur 26,250 deaths. This compares to an average of 1,000 to 1,200 deaths from flu in the average flu epidemic. That 1,000 - 1,200 is also quite high for a developed country as Austria has a low vaccination rate for flu. So COVID-19 is potentially 26 times more fatal than flu.


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## rederob (13 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Maybe someone would like to check my logic and my math.
> 
> Assume there is no vaccine discovered and no drugs prove effective cures and assume figures from Worldometers are correct in saying that Austria has had 350 deaths to date. I have read that herd immunity starts to kick in at 60% and is very effective at 90%. Then lets take a mid-point of 75% infected as providing reasonable immunity. Then if the 350 deaths are from an infection rate of 1%, to reach reasonable herd immunity of 75%, Austria will incur 26,250 deaths. This compares to an average of 1,000 to 1,200 deaths from flu in the average flu epidemic. That 1,000 - 1,200 is also quite high for a developed country as Austria has a low vaccination rate for flu. So COVID-19 is potentially 26 times more fatal than flu.



No disrespect to your maths, but it's based on imperfect knowledge and assumes some things which may not be features of this virus.  For example, representative sampling will not pick up "clustering" which is a feature of COVID-19 but not the flu.
More importantly, it may be that a lot more people have been exposed to the virus and have antibodies. And if that were so then the case fatality rate (cfr) could be significantly lower.
Aside from that the country data we have is anomalous, suggesting there things we don't understand. 
Finally, it's not wise to use the common flu's cfr as it is already built on years of infection and immunity plus vaccinations.


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## bellenuit (13 April 2020)

rederob said:


> No disrespect to your maths, but it's based on imperfect knowledge and assumes some things which may not be features of this virus.  For example, representative sampling will not pick up "clustering" which is a feature of COVID-19 but not the flu.
> More importantly, it may be that a lot more people have been exposed to the virus and have antibodies. And if that were so then the case fatality rate (cfr) could be significantly lower.
> Aside from that the country data we have is anomalous, suggesting there things we don't understand.
> Finally, it's not wise to use the common flu's cfr as it is already built on years of infection and immunity plus vaccinations.




Of course there were going to be a lot of fuzziness in the conclusion, but it was just an attempted extrapolation based on what is currently known rather than perfect knowledge which we don't as yet have. Representative sampling will not pick up clustering of infections but equally there are probably clusters of populations that have no infections to compensate. The comparison with flu was just to show the potential magnitude of the problem which many dismiss; a  quantitative comparison not a virological comparison.


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## noirua (13 April 2020)

*Coronavirus hits remote Amazon tribe in Brazil as 15-year-old boy dies with COVID-19*
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...s-15-year-old-boy-dies-with-covid-19-11971906


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## noirua (13 April 2020)

*Coronavirus numbers in Australia: how many new cases are there? Covid-19 map, stats and graph*
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ats-graph-map-by-postcode-covid-19-death-toll


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## noirua (14 April 2020)

The Chinese flag re-imagined in a Danish newspaper cartoon.
https://www.dw.com/en/china-angry-over-coronavirus-cartoon-in-danish-newspaper/a-52196383


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## rederob (14 April 2020)

The above is a real quote - *not a cartoon*.
Elements of this thread are turning a virus into a *China blame game*.
As I posted previously, the swine flu pandemic originated in Mexico, but was actually propagated through the USA's indifference.  Records of its death rate are unreliable - estimates as high as 500k globally - but there was no blame game back then and no backlash against the USA's across-the-board tardiness in acting on its severity.
Instead, today there is a new narrative being propagated that also blames the WHO for conspiring with China in a huge coverup.  Despite there being zero evidence of a coverup, the US media in particular is trying to divert attention from its President's gross failure to act expeditiously and sensibly.


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## wayneL (14 April 2020)

Hitchens offers a different view and compares the response of the UK and other countries.


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## hja (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> The above is a real quote - *not a cartoon*.
> Elements of this thread are turning a virus into a *China blame game*.
> As I posted previously, the swine flu pandemic originated in Mexico, but was actually propagated through the USA's indifference.  Records of its death rate are unreliable - estimates as high as 500k globally - but there was no blame game back then and no backlash against the USA's across-the-board tardiness in acting on its severity.
> Instead, today there is a new narrative being propagated that also blames the WHO for conspiring with China in a huge coverup.  Despite there being zero evidence of a coverup, the US media in particular is trying to divert attention from its President's gross failure to act expeditiously and sensibly.




China's deadly coverup from the very outset of the virus outbreak last year:...
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6148497597001

..., just continues with the suppression of new research by deletion of its academic pages:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-suggest


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## rederob (14 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> Hitchens offers a different view and compares the response of the UK and other countries.



Unfortunately he offers little factual evidence to support his many claims, most of which have been demonstrated to be false.
For example he clearly says *"that the presumption made in this debate by those in favour of the shutdowns is that the shutdown will save lives...."*
Wuhan shut down and little comparative infection spread across China as a result of its nationwide travel and health enforcement strategies.  As the virus broke out in China we would assume on what Hitchens says that it should have the highest number of deaths.  Instead it sits at 9th on the deplorable deaths table.
I am always amused by people introducing different perspectives which are based on falsehoods or plain inept analysis.  But I guess they can't help it.


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## rederob (14 April 2020)

hja said:


> China's deadly coverup from the very outset of the virus outbreak last year:...
> https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6148497597001
> 
> ..., just continues with the suppression of new research by deletion of its academic pages:
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-suggest



Again, Zero evidence of a coverup - more of the rubbish people here post to perpetuate a blame game.

As to the publishing restrictions, China has not prevented peer reviewed work from being in the public domain, eg, at google scholar:
*The epidemiological characteristics of an outbreak of 2019 novel coronavirus diseases (COVID-19) in China*
CPERE Novel - Zhonghua liu xing bing xue za zhi= Zhonghua …, 2020 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
* Clinical characteristics of coronavirus disease 2019 in China*
W Guan, Z Ni, Y Hu, W Liang, C Ou, J He… - … England Journal of …, 2020 - Mass Medical Soc
*A novel coronavirus from patients with pneumonia in China, 2019*
N Zhu, D Zhang, W Wang, X Li, B Yang… - … England Journal of …, 2020 - Mass Medical Soc
*Clinical features of patients infected with 2019 novel coronavirus in Wuhan, China*
C Huang, Y Wang, X Li, L Ren, J Zhao, Y Hu, L Zhang… - The Lancet, 2020 - Elsevier
*Early transmission dynamics in Wuhan, China, of novel coronavirus–infected pneumonia*
Q Li, X Guan, P Wu, X Wang, L Zhou… - … England Journal of …, 2020 - Mass Medical Soc
*A novel coronavirus outbreak of global health concern*
C Wang, PW Horby, FG Hayden, GF Gao - The Lancet, 2020 - thelancet.com
*A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus of probable bat origin*
P Zhou, XL Yang, XG Wang, B Hu, L Zhang, W Zhang… - Nature, 2020 - nature.com
*Clinical characteristics of 138 hospitalized patients with 2019 novel coronavirus–infected pneumonia in Wuhan, China*
D Wang, B Hu, C Hu, F Zhu, X Liu, J Zhang, B Wang… - Jama, 2020 - jamanetwork.com

And here are links to *over 300 more *Chinese works on the virus.


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## hja (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Again, Zero evidence of a coverup - more of the rubbish people here post to perpetuate a blame game.
> As to the publishing restrictions, China has not prevented peer reviewed work from being in the public domain, eg:
> *The epidemiological characteristics of an outbreak of 2019 novel coronavirus diseases *



If the WHO had acted just three weeks earlier nearly 95 per cent of today’s infections and deaths would not have happened. More than 1.5 million people have been infected with COVID-19 so far and 94,500 have died. The study raises more questions about the *WHO’s failure* to recommend early travel bans based on *advice from China that the disease could not be transmitted from human-to-human contact. *Taiwanese officials told the WHO on December 31 they had enough evidence to confirm the virus *could be transmitted human-to-human but the WHO ignored that advice because China disagreed.* “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission,” the WHO said on January 14 – already two weeks later than first being informed. *Then on January 22 an emergency committee debated declaring a global emergency and banning travel to China.
...
Beijing resisted and the group of doctors calling for widespread travel bans were overruled. It took another week for the WHO to reverse that decision, implement travel ban recommendations and label the crisis a global emergency.*


----------



## SirRumpole (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Again, Zero evidence of a coverup - more of the rubbish people here post to perpetuate a blame game.
> As to the publishing restrictions, China has not prevented peer reviewed work from being in the public domain, eg:
> *The epidemiological characteristics of an outbreak of 2019 novel coronavirus diseases (COVID-19) in China*
> CPERE Novel - Zhonghua liu xing bing xue za zhi= Zhonghua …, 2020 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> ...




Pretty well all those writers are Chinese. Can we really believe they won't tow the official line when it conflicts with the facts ?


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Pretty well all those writers are Chinese. Can we really believe they won't tow the official line when it conflicts with the facts ?



How do you get different facts, given the basis of the information was largely complete patient records for the better studies.  These records did not hide that people died, and the information is wholly consistent with other findings, eg the first American case.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

hja said:


> If the WHO had acted just three weeks earlier nearly 95 per cent of today’s infections and deaths would not have happened. More than 1.5 million people have been infected with COVID-19 so far and 94,500 have died. The study raises more questions about the *WHO’s failure* to recommend early travel bans based on *advice from China that the disease could not be transmitted from human-to-human contact. *Taiwanese officials told the WHO on December 31 they had enough evidence to confirm the virus *could be transmitted human-to-human but the WHO ignored that advice because China disagreed.* “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission,” the WHO said on January 14 – already two weeks later than first being informed. *Then on January 22 an emergency committee debated declaring a global emergency and banning travel to China.
> ...
> Beijing resisted and the group of doctors calling for widespread travel bans were overruled. It took another week for the WHO to reverse that decision, implement travel ban recommendations and label the crisis a global emergency.*



The WHO provided direct advice to all member nations about the virus on 1 January, a day after it was notified.  On 3 January the US Health Department was in direct contact with China about the virus.
Your article's claims are total rubbish.


----------



## hja (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> The WHO provided direct advice to all member nations about the virus on 1 January, a day after it was notified.  On 3 January the US Health Department was in direct contact with China about the virus.
> Your article's claims are total rubbish.



Are you sure you're not a  gutter spokesperson for the People's republic ?


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

hja said:


> Are you sure you're not a  gutter spokesperson for the People's republic ?



Please offer facts about what actually happened, and take your poorly based ideas about me elsewhere.


----------



## hja (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Please offer facts about what actually happened, and take your poorly based ideas about me elsewhere.




Mate.... It's nothing new. There's plenty of corroborating information from *different sources* relaying the same facts, not from just Chinese ones towing the red line: 
https://www.news24.com/World/News/c...s-apology-from-who-chief-for-slander-20200409
https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1897190/us-criticizes-who-for-ignoring-taiwan-virus-warnings
https://au.glbnews.com/04-2020/52780718458367/


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

hja said:


> Mate.... It's nothing new. There's plenty of corroborating information from *different sources* relaying the same facts, not from just Chinese ones towing the red line:
> https://www.news24.com/World/News/c...s-apology-from-who-chief-for-slander-20200409
> https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1897190/us-criticizes-who-for-ignoring-taiwan-virus-warnings
> https://au.glbnews.com/04-2020/52780718458367/



I deal in facts.
These links from you are not based on facts.
Is it that hard for you to work out the difference, or would you like me to rebut them?


----------



## DB008 (14 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> it's really interesting to observe who the CCP shills are on this forum.
> 
> It's also interesting to see the correlation with other issues,




Thanks for reminding me about the 'ignore' button Wayne. It's a very valuable tool to use to help filter out the shills in this thread


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I deal in facts.
> These links from you are not based on facts.
> Is it that hard for you to work out the difference, or would you like me to rebut them?



Yeah you block when you hit a wall. The actual facts are already all laid out throughout this thread. It's amusing to watch.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Yeah you block when you hit a wall. The actual facts are already all laid out throughout this thread. It's amusing to watch.



Really?
I consistently ask for evidence in support of claims.
I provide more links than most posters at ASF in support of my posts and am happy to be proven wrong, when I get it wrong, which is inevitable.
I have a number of posters on "ignore" so that I don't waste my time making the same same same same reply.  I nevertheless read all their posts in the threads I post in.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Really?
> I consistently ask for evidence in support of claims.
> I provide more links than most posters at ASF in support of my posts and am happy to be proven wrong, when I get it wrong, which is inevitable.
> I have a number of posters on "ignore" so that I don't waste my time making the same same same same reply.  I nevertheless read all their posts in the threads I post in.



And I posted links, evidence, timelines as have others. You get the same reply when you push the same dead end and often wrong argument.
(I'm assuming the Folau thread)

Haven't you been proven wrong enough to still  bite


----------



## wayneL (14 April 2020)

Fwiw, I'd back Hitchens against CCPRobeee, London to a brick, and Mombasa to a melon.

As for me, I offered it as a well thought out and argued contrarian view, for discussion, for what it was worth.

Interesting how the ambassador for the CCP spun it. 

Instructive.


----------



## hja (14 April 2020)

@rederob


rederob said:


> I deal in facts.
> These links from you are not based on facts.
> Is it that hard for you to work out the difference, or would you like me to rebut them?



Still waiting for anything you can provide that's impartial and credible. I know it'll be hard for you.

Look at all the referenced names and institutions in your links: (*"all in China.")*

W Guan, Z Ni, Y Hu, W Liang, C Ou, J ,N Zhu, D Zhang, W Wang, X Li, B Yang, C Huang, Y Wang, X Li, L Ren, J Zhao, Y Hu, L Zhang Q Li, X Guan, P Wu, X Wang, L Zhou....
From the State Key Laboratory of Respiratory Disease, National Clinical Research Center for Respiratory Disease, Guangzhou Institute of Respiratory Health, First Affiliated Hospital of Guangzhou Medical University (W.G., W.L., J.H., R.C., C.T., T.W., S.L., Jin-lin Wang, N.Z., J.H., W.L.), the Departments of Thoracic Oncology (W.L.), Thoracic Surgery and Oncology (J.H.), and Emergency Medicine (Z.L.), First Affiliated Hospital of Guangzhou Medical University, and Guangzhou Eighth People’s Hospital, Guangzhou Medical University (C.L.), and the State Key Laboratory of Organ Failure Research, Department of Biostatistics, Guangdong Provincial Key Laboratory of Tropical Disease Research, School of Public Health, Southern Medical University (C.O., P.C.), Guangzhou, Wuhan Jinyintan Hospital (Z.N., J.X.), Union Hospital, Tongji Medical College, Huazhong University of Science and Technology (Yu Hu), the Central Hospital of Wuhan (Y.P.), Wuhan No. 1 Hospital, Wuhan Hospital of Traditional Chinese and Western Medicine (L.W.), Wuhan Pulmonary Hospital (P.P.), Tianyou Hospital Affiliated to Wuhan University of Science and Technology (Jian-ming Wang), and the People’s Hospital of Huangpi District (S.Z.), Wuhan, Shenzhen Third People’s Hospital and the Second Affiliated Hospital of Southern University of Science and Technology, National Clinical Research Center for Infectious Diseases (L. Liu), and the Department of Clinical Microbiology and Infection Control, University of Hong Kong–Shenzhen Hospital (K.-Y.Y.), Shenzhen, the Fifth Affiliated Hospital of Sun Yat-sen University, Zhuhai (H.S.), the Department of Medicine and Therapeutics, Chinese University of Hong Kong, Shatin (D.S.C.H.), and the Department of Microbiology and the Carol Yu Center for Infection, Li Ka Shing Faculty of Medicine, University of Hong Kong, Pok Fu Lam (K.-Y.Y.), Hong Kong, Medical ICU, Peking Union Medical College Hospital, Peking Union Medical College and Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences (B.D.), and the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (G.Z.), Beijing, the State Key Laboratory for Diagnosis and Treatment of Infectious Diseases, National Clinical Research Center for Infectious Diseases, First Affiliated Hospital, College of Medicine, Zhejiang University, Hangzhou (L. Li), Chengdu Public Health Clinical Medical Center, Chengdu (Y.L.), Huangshi Central Hospital of Edong Healthcare Group, Affiliated Hospital of Hubei Polytechnic University, Huangshi (Ya-hua Hu), the First Hospital of Changsha, Changsha (J. Liu), the Third People’s Hospital of Hainan Province, Sanya (Z.C.), Huanggang Central Hospital, Huanggang (G.L.), Wenling First People’s Hospital, Wenling (Z.Z.), the Third People’s Hospital of Yichang, Yichang (S.Q.), Affiliated Taihe Hospital of Hubei University of Medicine, Shiyan (J. Luo), and Xiantao First People’s Hospital, Xiantao (C.Y.) — *all in China.*


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Haven't you been proven wrong enough to still bite



Many of the posts where you include links neglect to include an evidentiary basis, and are strong on opinions.
I tend to ignore comments based on opinions.
In relation to Taiwan, as an example, apart from the government official making a lot of claims, there is nothing I can find that confirms their stance (other than what they said) or that makes sense. 
The nature of what was *publicly available on 31 December* makes clear that of the 27 cases identified to that point in time, *"Epidemiological investigation, preliminary laboratory analysis and other aspects of the situation that the above cases are viral pneumonia."*
Conspiracy theorists think that Chinese people were being kept in the dark about this issue but, also on 31 December, CCTV made 2 public broadcasts about this infection .
It is inconceivable that any medical expert would *not *have realised that a SARS-like virus was a likely culprit.  Japan certainly made it news on 31 December.
It is to Taiwan's credit that they acted as they did so early in the piece.  Korea also quickly  recognised the potential threat and took appropriate steps.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

hja said:


> Look at all the referenced names and institutions in your links: (*"all in China.")*



*That was exactly my point.*
If China is suppressing publication of research about COVID-19 - which was being claimed in a link I responded to - why are there literally hundreds of papers available from Chinese academics?


----------



## hja (14 April 2020)

Oh how convenient... and to suppress the voices of, how many (literally thousands?) who were in disapproval of the CCP-line. So now those academics, researchers and doctors are "missing" or killed off.


----------



## wayneL (14 April 2020)

hja said:


> Oh how convenient... and to suppress the voices of, how many (literally thousands?) who were in disapproval of the CCP-line. So now those academics, researchers and doctors are "missing" or killed off.



It's actually interesting, mate, how this has exposed the CCP shills.

Not withstanding the cultural and political traitors we have here on ASF, I have been shocked at some other entities in our society who would rather shill for the CCP than our own culture.


----------



## Joules MM1 (14 April 2020)

whacky tv


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

hja said:


> Still waiting for anything you can provide that's impartial and credible. I know it'll be hard for you.



In relation to what?


----------



## hja (14 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> It's actually interesting, mate, how this has exposed the CCP shills.
> 
> Not withstanding the cultural and political traitors we have here on ASF, I have been shocked at some other entities in our society who would rather shill for the CCP than our own culture.



It's like any little fart that ruffles the red flag or mention that Jinping pongs is tantamount to blasphemy.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Many of the posts where you include links neglect to include an evidentiary basis, and are strong on opinions.
> I tend to ignore comments based on opinions.
> In relation to Taiwan, as an example, apart from the government official making a lot of claims, there is nothing I can find that confirms their stance (other than what they said) or that makes sense.
> The nature of what was *publicly available on 31 December* makes clear that of the 27 cases identified to that point in time, *"Epidemiological investigation, preliminary laboratory analysis and other aspects of the situation that the above cases are viral pneumonia."*
> ...



In relation to Taiwan, they sent a letter to WHO that was acknowledgement that it had been received (without reply). Previously posted on this thread.

Tedros has a lot of skeletons in his closet. 
Cover-up (Previously accused by who)
TPLF
Current China and Ethiopia links.
None of that is "conspiracy theories", it's stuff that's happened.

I've posted enough links to show China has a track record on lying.

I'm sure I posted a who timeline of who somewhere as well.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

Joules MM1 said:


> whacky tv




Now redo it based on % of population.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> In relation to Taiwan, they sent a letter to WHO that was acknowledgement that it had been received (without reply). Previously posted on this thread.



Where is this letter?
I have read what it is supposed to ask, but it makes no sense given what was already known.
I have no doubt that governments lie.  Ask the journalists in Australia investigating ADF coverups.
More often they just don't release what they don't think will make them look good.
Here, however, the idea that China has been tardy in responding to the novel coronavirus does not fit the actions they have taken.  The idea that the WHO is complicit is plain dumb.
I will happily go through point by point issues, but not a raft of them at once.


----------



## qldfrog (14 April 2020)

hja said:


> Oh how convenient... and to suppress the voices of, how many (literally thousands?) who were in disapproval of the CCP-line. So now those academics, researchers and doctors are "missing" or killed off.




killed off? why adding "off"??? funny in a VERY dark/red humor only


----------



## basilio (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Now redo it based on % of population.




Why not  just call it Fake News from an Enemy of the People ? 

That's what the Master Debater says every-single-time there is any criticism of his  stunning, heroic 10/10 achievements in protecting the US from this gigantic hoax of a Chinese Communist/Democratic/WHO plot to undermine the eternal  temporal authority of the Son of God.


----------



## basilio (14 April 2020)

*Evangelical Pastor Who Mocked Social Distance Rules Dies of Covid19*





Mish

8 hours ago

The New Deliverance Evangelistic Church pastor died from Covid19 after refusing to adhere to social distancing rules.
Please note a Virginia Pastor Who Defiantly Held Church Service Dies of Coronavirus.

In his last known in-person service on March 22, Bishop Gerald O. Glenn got his congregation at Richmond’s New Deliverance Evangelistic Church to stand to prove how many were there despite warnings against gatherings of more than 10 people.

“_I firmly believe that God is larger than this dreaded virus. You can quote me on that_,” he said, repeating it a second time to claps, saying that “_people are healed_” in his church.

“_I am essential_,” he said of remaining open, adding, “_I’m a preacher — I talk to God!_”

*Darwin Award Candidate?*

In the spirit of Charles Darwin, the Darwin Awards commemorate individuals who protect our gene pool by making the ultimate sacrifice of their own lives. _Darwin Award winners eliminate themselves in an extraordinarily idiotic manner, thereby improving our species' chances of long-term survival_.

*https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/econ...-rules-dies-of-covid19-8popHtKZWU6HdBgOlrU4pg*


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 April 2020)

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/coro...s/news-story/d0805fe5ab1b1552763b85ab2c3a1c10



> Australia’s firm stance against wildlife markets could put the country on a collision course with the global health authority.
> 
> “We need to protect the world against potential sources of outbreaks of these types of viruses,” Mr Morrison said.
> 
> “It has happened too many times.”




If the WHO is fine with re-opening these markets in China then either the WHO are in league with the the CCP or they've concluded that the virus didn't really come from a wild animal at a market.

Either way, this isn't leading down a good path.


----------



## basilio (14 April 2020)

Excellent story on the efforts to prepare our health systems for a possible step rise in admissions from the COVID 19 virus.

*The race to be ready*
By staying home, Australians have bought the health system precious time to prepare for the COVID-19 peak. Now, those racing to get our hospitals ready are cautiously optimistic. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...prepare-for-the-worst-of-coronavirus/12140878


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

basilio said:


> Why not  just call it Fake News from an Enemy of the People ?
> 
> That's what the Master Debater says every-single-time there is any criticism of his  stunning, heroic 10/10 achievements in protecting the US from this gigantic hoax of a Chinese Communist/Democratic/WHO plot to undermine the eternal  temporal authority of the Son of God.



Since when did using statistics to measure like vs like become the norm?

It beggars belief...


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Where is this letter?
> I have read what it is supposed to ask, but it makes no sense given what was already known.
> I have no doubt that governments lie.  Ask the journalists in Australia investigating ADF coverups.
> More often they just don't release what they don't think will make them look good.
> ...



This letter?






Here's Ai Fen report that China kept censoring:



The doctors called into question human transmission in that December 30 chat. 


This isn't just government telling lies. They happily make them disappear, while censoring any proof. CCP is not just another government. People need to open their eyes.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-whistleblowers-speak-out-vanish-2020-2?amp


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Now redo it based on % of population.



Done.


moXJO said:


> This letter?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for posting.
Can you advise what was being hidden as the letter repeats what was made public.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Done.
> 
> Thanks for posting.
> Can you advise what was being hidden as the letter repeats what was made public.



You questioned the existence of the letter and if it had been sent December 31.

WHO and Taiwan are now arguing over the wording.

Truth is Taiwan got wind of the Ai Fens report.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Done.



Shows US is roughly 14th from memory. 
I posted that in another thread.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> You questioned the existence of the letter and if it had been sent December 31.
> 
> WHO and Taiwan are now arguing over the wording.
> 
> Truth is Taiwan got wind of the Ai Fens report.



I said it did not make sense in terms of what was reported as being asked.
I repeat that what has been reported is inconsistent with what the letter asks: it uses information I have previously linked so there are no surprises that I can see.
Again, what is it that is of concern to Taiwan that would not have been provided to all other nations as well?


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Shows US is roughly 14th from memory.
> I posted that in another thread.



?
There is no consistency to any of the metrics to derive anything meaningful at this stage, except perhaps for China which is showing containment.  Even if their figures are a bit dodgy, there is nothing indicating other nation's are more accurate (except for what our CMO says wrt Australia).
The USA is well off peaking in its death rate, so if you are using *14th *for that aspect of data, then it is premature.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> ?
> There is no consistency to any of the metrics to derive anything meaningful at this stage, except perhaps for China which is showing containment.  Even if their figures are a bit dodgy, there is nothing indicating other nation's are more accurate (except for what our CMO says wrt Australia).
> The USA is well off peaking in its death rate, so if you are using *14th *for that aspect of data, then it is premature.



Are you giving credibility to  "US is first" by the previously metric ?

US is 14th to total population on that list regardless. And that's not taking into mind all the other stats, because that's not what was offered.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I said it did not make sense in terms of what was reported as being asked.
> I repeat that what has been reported is inconsistent with what the letter asks: it uses information I have previously linked so there are no surprises that I can see.
> Again, what is it that is of concern to Taiwan that would not have been provided to all other nations as well?



The fact doctors had already highlighted human to human transmission.

Innocent nations with nothing to hide don't lock up doctors who tell the truth.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Are you giving credibility to  "US is first" by the previously metric ?



I have no idea what you are getting at.
The US response to this virus has been dreadful by most international standards.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I have no idea what you are getting at.
> The US response to this virus has been dreadful by most international standards.



As has Sweden, France, Belgium  all who are marginally higher then the US.

The only difference is the opportunity to bag Trump. Political plays are fine. But don't dress it up with dodgy stats.


----------



## wayneL (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> As has Sweden, France, Belgium  all who are marginally higher then the US.
> 
> The only difference is the opportunity to bag Trump. Political plays are fine. But don't dress it up with dodgy stats.



interesting also that the three countries mentioned have had vastly different responses, for not much different results.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> interesting also that the three countries mentioned have had vastly different responses, for not much different results.



It's funny.
The country literally running concentration camps is barely ever mentioned, let alone Xi.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> As has Sweden, France, Belgium  all who are marginally higher then the US.
> 
> The only difference is the opportunity to bag Trump. Political plays are fine. But don't dress it up with dodgy stats.



Higher than what?
How can you tell anything about respective rates unless you compare like with like?
You are not doing this.
What we know for sure is that Trump has sat on his hands and called this virus a "hoax."
As a result they are No. 1 in the worst aspects of the published data, ie total dead and total infected.  Sadly, those data will increase the USA's lead.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Higher than what?
> How can you tell anything about respective rates unless you compare like with like?
> You are not doing this.
> What we know for sure is that Trump has sat on his hands and called this virus a "hoax."
> As a result they are No. 1 in the worst aspects of the published data, ie total dead and total infected.  Sadly, those data will increase the USA's lead.



You have looked at the stats?
Looking at deaths per million is a better metric then total deaths.

Did you actually look at the measures that the US put in place or did you watch a cnn video. Because the US did not sit on its hands, that's what Sweden actually did.


----------



## Joules MM1 (14 April 2020)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathan...y-promise-for-covid-19-patients/#20f29d094677


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> You have looked at the stats?
> Looking at deaths per million is a better metric then total deaths.
> 
> Did you actually look at the measures that the US put in place or did you watch a cnn video. Because the US did not sit on its hands, that's what Sweden actually did.



Why have we moved off Taiwan and China?
Everyone has seen Trump lie his way through media engagements and the only thing he has done is cause excessive misery to the nation.  He is lucky the country has a strong manufacturing base, but I listened to a US doctor being interviewed a few nights ago and he still did not have adequate PPE (not this doctor - another one).
By way of data analysis the consensus is that each day delay in a hard lockdown adds a week to the recovery timeframe.  Unfortunately not all States of the USA have been acting to lockdown as hard as necessary to achieve good outcomes and, as viruses do not respect borders, the pandemic in the USA will be difficult to overcome in a timely manner.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Why have we moved off Taiwan and China?
> Everyone has seen Trump lie his way through media engagements and the only thing he has done is cause excessive misery to the nation.  He is lucky the country has a strong manufacturing base, but I listened to a US doctor being interviewed a few nights ago and he still did not have adequate PPE (not this doctor - another one).
> By way of data analysis the consensus is that each day delay in a hard lockdown adds a week to the recovery timeframe.  Unfortunately not all States of the USA have been acting to lockdown as hard as necessary to achieve good outcomes and, as viruses do not respect borders, the pandemic in the USA will be difficult to overcome in a timely manner.



You moved off Taiwan and china



rederob said:


> Done.
> 
> Thanks for posting.
> Can you advise what was being hidden as the letter repeats what was made public.





Because there is an unhealthy obsession with Trump
among leftists and total denial about China.


----------



## hja (14 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> killed off? why adding "off"??? funny in a VERY dark/red humor only



Struck off, hit, executed, le supplice chinois,... you name it!


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> You moved off Taiwan and china



No, I responded to your whatever it is you are trying to suggest in relation to the USA that I still cannot work out.
Separately, I still have no idea what you are claiming in relation to what Taiwan thinks they have been denied.


----------



## DB008 (14 April 2020)

*Shocking note handed out by McDonald's staff reveals virus racism in China*​The city’s large black population says it has faced intense discrimination in recent days after multiple COVID-19 cases in the southern city of Guangzhou were linked to the Yuexiu district known as ‘Little Africa” due to its high population of African nationals.

Authorities confirmed 16 of 114 imported cases in the city were Africans. It has since prompted landlords to evict African residents forcing many on to the streets while some claim they’ve been refused entry into stores and other restaurants and subject to arbitrary quarantines.

Reports in Guangzhou previously suggested some of those infected had been flouting strict rules placed on foreign nationals, fuelling xenophobia in the city amid fears of a second wave of the virus.

On Sunday, video emerged from a McDonald’s restaurant in the city showing a female employee distributing signs that said “black people are not allowed to enter the restaurant”.

“For the sake of your health consciously notify the local police for medical isolation, please understand the inconvenience caused,” the sign read.

McDonald’s China has since apologised for the incident and said the store has been temporarily closed.

“As part of the temporary closure of this restaurant, we will take the opportunity to further educate managers and employees on our values, which includes serving all members of the communities in which we operate,” a spokesperson told Hong Kong Free Press.

The spokesperson said the sign being handed out was unauthorised.

Several Africans have spoken out over their treatment in recent days, suggesting the black community are being unfairly targeted.

“I’ve been sleeping under the bridge for four days with no food to eat… I cannot buy food anywhere, no shops or restaurants will serve me,” Tony Mathias, an exchange student from Uganda who was forced from his apartment on Monday, told AFP.

“We’re like beggars on the street,” the 24-year-old said.

Mathias added that police had given him no information about testing or quarantine but instead told him “to go to another city”.

A Nigerian businessman said he was evicted from his apartment this week.​
https://au.news.yahoo.com/mcdonalds...k-people-not-allowed-guangzhou-002810779.html​

​

Side note :

Conflict between the African community and police in Guangzhou resulted in riots in 2009 and 2012. In July 2009, two Nigerian men jumped several floors from a building in an attempt to flee Chinese immigration authorities. Both men were hurt from the fall. But on hearing rumors of their deaths, hundreds of Africans, mostly Nigerian, surrounded a local police station. The demonstration escalated into a riot that shut down eight lanes of traffic on a major thoroughfare for several hours.

In June 2012, an African held in police custody after a taxi fare dispute died after according to police "suddenly losing consciousness". Over a hundred Africans gathered at the police station in question demanding the know the cause of death. Guangzhou police responded with a statement that they would "investigate and settle this case strictly by law" and also that "All should abide by the law of China, no one should harm public interests or damage public order."​
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africans_in_Guangzhou#Riots_in_2009_and_2012


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> No, I responded to your whatever it is you are trying to suggest in relation to the USA that I still cannot work out.
> Separately, I still have no idea what you are claiming in relation to what Taiwan thinks they have been denied.



Mmmmm  deflection. 
Pretty easy Rob
US was accused of being worst in the world off total deaths, instead of deaths per million.
You butted into that convo by the way. 



rederob said:


> Did they?
> Taiwan wrote to the WHO before they even knew about the virus, did they?
> You are a classic conspiracy theory spreader who does not check facts.



This was what you were originally arguing about. You have now morphed the argument once the dates came out.


----------



## Joules MM1 (14 April 2020)

*VACCINE TRIALS *
As China fights to prevent a second wave of COVID-19, two experimental vaccines will be trialed on humans, state media Xinhua reported on Tuesday.

The experimental vaccines are being developed by a Beijing-based unit of Nasdaq-listed Sinovac Biotech (SVA.O), and by the Wuhan Institute of Biological Products, an affiliate of state-owned China National Pharmaceutical Group.

In March, China gave the green-light for another clinical trial for a coronavirus vaccine candidate developed by military-backed China’s Academy of Military Medical Sciences and HK-listed biotech firm CanSino Bio (6185.HK), shortly after U.S. drug developer Moderna (MRNA.O) said it had begun human tests for their vaccine with the U.S. National Institutes of Health.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...CN21W08N?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Mmmmm  deflection.
> Pretty easy Rob
> US was accused of being worst in the world off total deaths, instead of deaths per million.
> You butted into that convo by the way.



I still have no idea what your point is.
The US death peak is a long way off, so trying to use data to show they are currently doing ok is premature.


moXJO said:


> This was what you were originally arguing about. You have now morphed the argument once the dates came out.



Correct, they had no knowledge of a specific virus and were asking questions about a matter that was in the public domain.  Look at what was being claimed in the media and compare that to what was specifically asked.  They do not make sense.
So, exactly what is it that you are claiming in relation to what Taiwan was not told?


----------



## qldfrog (14 April 2020)

hja said:


> Struck off, hit, executed, le supplice chinois,... you name it!



I know ...my bad humor
Notice and  appreciate the French term....
I know China well for the best and the worst


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2020)

W.A is having a bit of success controlling the virus.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...by-four-with-three-more-from-artania/12144520

Western Australia has recorded four new cases of coronavirus, with three of them linked to the Artania cruise ship, as the State Government pinpointed the start of May as the earliest point restrictions may be eased.

Later in the day, Mr McGowan said any "tweaks" would be made in a methodical and measured way based on health advice.

"The restriction I am not going to let up on, certainly in the near-to-medium term, is the interstate border," Mr McGowan said.

"Because I think the interstate border gives us the capacity to drive down the spread of the illness in Western Australia."


----------



## Knobby22 (14 April 2020)

That's good. Isn't that where you are SP?

It's funny Tassy is having problems.


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> That's good. Isn't that where you are SP?
> 
> It's funny Tassy is having problems.



Yes Knobby, I'm in Perth and Mandurah.
Everyone here is being very good about it, the shops are organised and people aren't getting agro that I have seen. So as I said earlier, I could see a winding back of protocols, happening in the forceable future. 
I think people will still adopt a large personal space, even after the emergency is over, it will just become a natural reaction.


----------



## Knobby22 (14 April 2020)

Feel like moving...but you've shut the border![emoji6]


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Feel like moving...but you've shut the border![emoji6]



It's the best place on earth, but don't tell anyone.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I still have no idea what your point is.
> The US death peak is a long way off, so trying to use data to show they are currently doing ok is premature.
> Correct, they had no knowledge of a specific virus and were asking questions about a matter that was in the public domain.  Look at what was being claimed in the media and compare that to what was specifically asked.  They do not make sense.
> So, exactly what is it that you are claiming in relation to what Taiwan was not told?




Transmission was suspected 30th of December by doctors on the ground. By Jan 14
it should have been clear and still WHO denied it in a tweet.



So between doctors being censored or jailed other countries already knowing and locking down. And you defending WHO and China when one or both have obviously lied.

 I'd say you need to clarify what you are defending.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> It's funny Tassy is having problems.



I suspect that geographic size and the onset of cooler weather may have something to do with it.

The area locally referred to as the North-West Coast, which in a physical sense refers to the western half of the state's northern coastline and a short distance inland, has a substantial population by local standards but it's a fairly mobile one, people do tend to travel from one town to another routinely.

Burnie and Devonport are both technically cities, albeit rather small ones with only ~20K and ~25K people respectively, but they're set out as cities with a CBD and so on. They're less than 50km apart and the trip only takes half an hour by car since the highway runs almost to the CBD in both cases. There's also quite a lot of people living between the two at Penguin, Ulverstone and Turners Beach who commute in either direction. So there tends to be a lot of movement of people in that area and Burnie + Devonport also both serve as the business center for various smaller towns and agricultural regions.

So I'm assuming that has something to do with it along perhaps with the change of seasons if weather turns out to be a factor. 

Regarding the weather, a look at BOM data finds that Burnie hasn't seen a daily maximum over 20 degrees since the 18th of March so summer has come to a relatively early end it seems. It's not totally unknown for summer-like weather to still be going well into April or even early May but not this year it seems. If weather turns out to be a factor then there's another issue.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Everyone here is being very good about it, the shops are organised and people aren't getting agro that I have seen.



Much the same in SA too by the way.

Everyone seems to be being sensible and no real dramas. 

One thing I've noticed though is that with the lack of traffic and more people out walking, running etc it would be wise if you are driving to be on the lookout for pedestrians. A few seem to be forgetting that "not many cars" doesn't mean no cars at all as they run out onto the road etc. Just something I've noticed.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Transmission was suspected 30th of December by doctors on the ground.



I am sure doctors always "suspect" a virus can be transmitted.
However, of the patients they had contact traced - remembering only 27 had been identified at that time - there was no evidence of overlap and therefore no human connection to make.  
The known common denominator was an association with the wet markets.
You want WHO to be advised about something that was *not evident*.  How does that work?


moXJO said:


> And you defending WHO and China when one or both have obviously lied.



Where is your evidence?
I keep asking.


----------



## basilio (14 April 2020)

Why has COVID 19 spread across the US ?

*It will disappear': the disinformation Trump spread about the coronavirus – timeline *
The president was personally warned about the growing crisis beginning in mid-January – but continued to give false assurances to the American public

* @TeeMcSee *
* *
*“What a problem. Came out of nowhere.”*

That’s how Donald Trump described the coronavirus pandemic in early March, during a televised visit to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

For weeks he had been giving Americans the same advice: “We have it totally under control”; “USA in great shape!”; and, of course, “Fake news”.

But privately, Trump was being warned of a “full-blown Covid-19 pandemic” and “1-2 million” American deaths, according to internal emails, memoranda and other recently unearthed evidence documenting internal deliberations.

It turns out that Trump was personally warned, repeatedly, about the growing crisis beginning in mid-January. But he continued to give false assurances to the American public.

Here’s a timeline of the main notifications Trump received and the disinformation he was simultaneously spreading.
*https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/14/trump-coronavirus-alerts-disinformation-timeline*


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I am sure doctors always "suspect" a virus can be transmitted.
> However, of the patients they had contact traced - remembering only 27 had been identified at that time - there was no evidence of overlap and therefore no human connection to make.
> The known common denominator was an association with the wet markets.
> You want WHO to be advised about something that was *not evident*.  How does that work?
> ...



Ok
Lets start with a timeline:

December 6: According to a study in _The Lancet,_ the symptom onset date of the first patient identified was “Dec 1, 2019 . . . 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalized in the isolation ward.” In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.

December 21: Wuhan doctors begin to notice a “cluster of pneumonia cases with an unknown cause.”

December 25: Chinese medical staff in two hospitals in Wuhan are suspected of contracting viral pneumonia and are quarantined. This is additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission.

Sometime in “Late December”:Wuhan hospitals notice “an exponential increase” in the number of cases that cannot be linked back to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, according to the _New England Journal of Medicine._

December 30: Dr. Li Wenliang sent a message to a group of other doctorswarning them about a possible outbreak of an illness that resembled severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), urging them to take protective measures against infection.

December 31: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares, “The investigation so far has not found any obvious human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infection.” This is the opposite of the belief of the doctors working on patients in Wuhan, and two doctors were already suspected of contracting the virus.

Three weeks after doctors first started noticing the cases, China contacts the World Health Organization. 
Tao Lina, a public-health expert and former official with Shanghai’s center for disease control and prevention, tells the _South China Morning Post_, “I think we are [now] quite capable of killing it in the beginning phase, given China’s disease control system, emergency handling capacity and clinical medicine support.”

January 1: The Wuhan Public Security Bureau issued summons to Dr. Li Wenliang, accusing him of “spreading rumors.” Two days later, at a police station, Dr. Li signed a statement acknowledging his “misdemeanor” and promising not to commit further “unlawful acts.” Seven other people are arrested on similar charges and their fate is unknown.

Also that day, “after several batches of genome sequence results had been returned to hospitals and submitted to health authorities, an employee of one genomics company received a phone call from an official at the Hubei Provincial Health Commission, ordering the company to stop testing samples from Wuhan related to the new disease and destroy all existing samples.”

According to a _New York Times_ study of cellphone data from China, 175,000 people leave Wuhan that day. According to global travel data research firm OAG, 21 countries have direct flights to Wuhan. In the first quarter of 2019 for comparison, 13,267 air passengers traveled from Wuhan, China, to destinations in the United States, or about 4,422 per month. The U.S. government would not bar foreign nationals who had traveled to China from entering the country for another month.

January 2: One study of patients in Wuhan can only connect 27 of 41 infected patients to exposure to the Huanan seafood market — indicating human-to-human transmission away from the market. A report written later that month concludes, “evidence so far indicates human transmission for 2019-nCoV. We are concerned that 2019-nCoV could have acquired the ability for efficient human transmission.”

Also on this day, the Wuhan Institute of Virology completed mapped the genome of the virus. The Chinese government would not announce that breakthrough for another week.

January 3: The Chinese government continued efforts to suppress all information about the virus: “China’s National Health Commission, the nation’s top health authority, ordered institutions not to publish any information related to the unknown disease, and ordered labs to transfer any samples they had to designated testing institutions, or to destroy them.”

Roughly one month after the first cases in Wuhan, the United States government is notified. Robert Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, gets initial reports about a new coronavirus from Chinese colleagues, according to Health and Human Services secretary Alex Azar. Azar, who helped manage the response at HHS to earlier SARS and anthrax outbreaks, told his chief of staff to make sure the National Security Council was informed.

Also on this day, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released another statement, repeating, “As of now, preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.”

January 4: While Chinese authorities continued to insist that the virus could not spread from one person to another, doctors outside that country weren’t so convinced. The head of the University of Hong Kong’s Centre for Infection, Ho Pak-leung, warned that “the city should implement the strictest possible monitoring system for a mystery new viral pneumonia that has infected dozens of people on the mainland, as it is highly possible that the illness is spreading from human to human.”

January 5: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission put out a statement with updated numbers of cases but repeated, “preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.”

January 6: The _New York Times_publishes its first report about the virus, declaring that “59 people in the central city of Wuhan have been sickened by a pneumonia-like illness.” That first report included these comments:

Wang Linfa, an expert on emerging infectious diseases at the Duke-NUS Medical School in Singapore, said he was frustrated that scientists in China were not allowed to speak to him about the outbreak. Dr. Wang said, however, that he thought the virus was likely not spreading from humans to humans because health workers had not contracted the disease. “We should not go into panic mode,” he said.

Don’t get too mad at Wang Linfa; he was making that assessment based upon the inaccurate information Chinese government was telling the world.

Also that day, the CDC  “issued a level 1 travel watch — the lowest of its three levels — for China’s outbreak. It said the cause and the transmission mode aren’t yet known, and it advised travelers to Wuhan to avoid living or dead animals, animal markets, and contact with sick people.”  
Also that day, the CDC offered to send a team to China to assist with the investigation. The Chinese government declined, but a WHO team that included two Americans would visit February 16.

January 8: Chinese medical authorities claim to have identified the virus. Those authorities claim and Western media continue to repeat, “there is no evidence that the new virus is readily spread by humans, which would make it particularly dangerous, and it has not been tied to any deaths.”

The official statement from the World Health Organization declares, “Preliminary identification of a novel virus in a short period of time is a notable achievement and demonstrates China’s increased capacity to manage new outbreaks . . . WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travelers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available.”

January 10: After unknowingly treating a patient with the Wuhan coronavirus, Dr. Li Wenliang started coughing and developed a fever. He was hospitalized on January 12. In the following days, Li’s condition deteriorated so badly that he was admitted to the intensive care unit and given oxygen support.

The _New York Times_ quotes the Wuhan City Health Commission’s declaration that “there is no evidence the virus can spread among humans.” Chinese doctors continued to find transmission among family members, contradicting the official statements from the city health commission.

January 11: The Wuhan City Health Commission issues an update declaring, “All 739 close contacts, including 419 medical staff, have undergone medical observation and no related cases have been found . . . No new cases have been detected since January 3, 2020. At present, no medical staff infections have been found, and no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.” They issue a Q&A sheet later that day reemphasizing that “most of the unexplained viral pneumonia cases in Wuhan this time have a history of exposure to the South China seafood market. No clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.”
Also on this day, political leaders in Hubei province, which includes Wuhan, began their regional meeting. The coronavirus was not mentioned over four days of meetings.

January 13: Authorities in Thailand detected the virus in a 61-year-old Chinese woman who was visiting from Wuhan, the first case outside of China.“Thailand’s Ministry of Public Health, said the woman had not visited the Wuhan seafood market, and had come down with a fever on Jan. 5. However, the doctor said, the woman had visited a different, smaller market in Wuhan, in which live and freshly slaughtered animals were also sold.”

January 14: Wuhan city health authorities release another statement declaring, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.” Wuhan doctors have known this was false since early December, from the first victim and his wife, who did not visit the market.

The World Health Organization echoes China’s assessment: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.”

This is five or six weeks after the first evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan.

January 15: Japan reported its first case of coronavirus. Japan’s Health Ministry said the patient had not visited any seafood markets in China, adding that “it is possible that the patient had close contact with an unknown patient with lung inflammation while in China.”

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission begins to change its statements, now declaring, “Existing survey results show that clear human-to-human evidence has not been found,and the possibility of limited human-to-human transmission cannot be ruled out, but the risk of continued human-to-human transmission is low.” Recall Wuhan hospitals concluded human-to-human transmission was occurring three weeks earlier. A statement the next day backtracks on the possibility of human transmission, saying only, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.”

January 17: The CDC and the Department of Homeland Security’s Customs and Border Protection announce that travelers from Wuhan to the United States will undergo entry screening for symptoms associated with 2019-nCoV at three U.S. airports that receive most of the travelers from Wuhan, China: San Francisco, New York (JFK), and Los Angeles airports.

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission’s daily update declares, “A total of 763 close contacts have been tracked, 665 medical observations have been lifted, and 98 people are still receiving medical observations. Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.”

January 18: HHS Secretary Azar has his first discussion about the virus with President Trump. Unnamed “senior administration officials” told the _Washington Post_ that “the president interjected to ask about vaping and when flavored vaping products would be back on the market.”

Despite the fact that Wuhan doctors know the virus is contagious, city authorities allow 40,000 families to gather and share home-cooked food in a Lunar New Year banquet.

January 19: The Chinese National Health Commission declares the virus “still preventable and controllable.” The World Health Organization updates its statement, declaring, “Not enough is known to draw definitive conclusions about how it is transmitted, the clinical features of the disease, the extent to which it has spread, or its source, which remains unknown.”

January 20: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares for the last time in its daily bulletin, “no related cases were found among the close contacts.”

That day, the head of China’s national health commission team investigating the outbreak, confirmed that two cases of infection in China’s Guangdong province had been caused by human-to-human transmission and medical staff had been infected.

Also on this date, the _Wuhan Evening News_ newspaper, the largest newspaper in the city, mentions the virus on the front page for the first time since January 5.

January 21: The CDC announced the first U.S. case of a the coronavirus in a Snohomish County, Wash., resident who returning from China six days earlier.

By this point, millions of people have left Wuhan, carrying the virus all around China and into other countries.

January 22: WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus continued to praise China’s handling of the outbreak. “I was very impressed by the detail and depth of China’s presentation. I also appreciate the cooperation of China’s Minister of Health, who I have spoken with directly during the last few days and weeks. His leadership and the intervention of President Xi and Premier Li have been invaluable, and all the measures they have taken to respond to the outbreak.”

In the preceding days, a WHO delegation conducted a field visit to Wuhan. They concluded, “deployment of the new test kit nationally suggests that human-to-human transmission is taking place in Wuhan.” The delegation reports, “their counterparts agreed close attention should be paid to hand and respiratory hygiene, food safety and avoiding mass gatherings where possible.”

At a meeting of the WHO Emergency Committee, panel members express “divergent views on whether this event constitutes a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern’ or not. At that time, the advice was that the event did not constitute a PHEIC.”

President Trump, in an interview with CNBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, declared, “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.”

January 23: Chinese authorities announce their first steps for a quarantine of Wuhan. By this point, millions have already visited the city and left it during the Lunar New Year celebrations. Singapore and Vietnam report their first cases, and by now an unknown but significant number of Chinese citizens have traveled abroad as asymptomatic, oblivious carriers.

January 24: Vietnam reports person-to-person transmission, and Japan, South Korea, and the U.S report their second cases. The second case is in Chicago. Within two days, new cases are reported in Los Angeles, Orange County, and Arizona. The virus is in now in several locations in the United States, and the odds of preventing an outbreak are dwindling to zero.

On February 1, Dr. Li Wenliang tested positive for coronavirus. He died from it six days later.

One final note: On February 4, Mayor of Florence Dario Nardella urged residents to hug Chinese people to encourage them in the fight against the novel coronavirus. Meanwhile, a member of Associazione Unione Giovani Italo Cinesi, a Chinese society in Italy aimed at promoting friendship between people in the two countries, called for respect for novel coronavirus patients during a street demonstration. “I’m not a virus. I’m a human. Eradicate the prejudice.”


Anything yet?


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

I said I would deal with one thing at a time, so I will look at your first point:







moXJO said:


> Ok
> Lets start with a timeline:
> December 6: According to a study in _The Lancet,_ the symptom onset date of the first patient identified was “Dec 1, 2019 . . . 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalized in the isolation ward.” In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.



Are you serious?
Please take the time to read what was actually written as this claim is definitively *wrong*.
The Lancet made clear that *"No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases."*
The person referred to as_* "his wife, a 53-year-old woman" *_was actually the wife of the first person to die, not the first person identified on 1 December. 

Will the rest be as poorly based?


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

Next:


moXJO said:


> December 21: Wuhan doctors begin to notice a “cluster of pneumonia cases with an unknown cause.”



This claim is retrospectively based. 





There is a particular way that doctors determine if the nature of pneumonia is not standard.  It requires an antibiotic treatment regime to have run its course and be found to be ineffective.  At 21 December a maximum of 5 patients met that criteria.


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I said I would deal with one thing at a time, so I will look at your first point:Are you serious?
> Please take the time to read what was actually written as this claim is definitively *wrong*.
> The Lancet made clear that *"No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases."*
> The person referred to as_* "his wife, a 53-year-old woman" *_was actually the wife of the first person to die, not the first person identified on 1 December.
> ...




The first fatal case, who had continuous exposure to the market, was admitted to hospital because of a 7-day history of fever, cough, and dyspnoea. 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalised in the isolation ward.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> The first fatal case, who had continuous exposure to the market, was admitted to hospital because of a 7-day history of fever, cough, and dyspnoea. 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalised in the isolation ward.



This person died on 10 January.  What was the date of wife’s admission?


----------



## moXJO (14 April 2020)

rederob said:


> This person died on 10 January.  What was the date of wife’s admission?




5 days after the husband's.


----------



## moXJO (15 April 2020)

The first case of someone in China suffering from 
Covid-19
, the disease caused by the novel 
coronavirus
, can be traced back to November 17, according to government data seen by the _South China Morning Post_.
Chinese authorities have so far identified at least 266 people who were infected last year, all of whom came under medical surveillance at some point.

By the final day of 2019, the number of confirmed cases had risen to 266, On the first day of 2020 it stood at 381.


Interesting if true. They didn't publish the docs so not really verifiable. But obviously looking at the spread rate over time in other countries it would line up. China is densely populated and no precautions at the time.
Have to remember we have been working of China's figures for most of the above.


----------



## bellenuit (15 April 2020)

*The real pandemic starts the day lockdown ends.*
*
https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/its-the-math-stupid/*


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *The real pandemic starts the day lockdown ends.*




The scenario they've suggested as one possible outcome is the one I've had in mind for a while now.

A few cases > a lot more cases > panic > lockdowns > number of new cases declines dramatically > a few cases > lockdowns end > a lot more cases...... rinse and repeat.

That's not a good approach in my view but I can see it happening for the reasons stated in your link.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> The first case of someone in China suffering from
> Covid-19
> , the disease caused by the novel
> coronavirus
> ...



There is no evidence this is true.
So far I have found nothing credible from four separate points examined.
Please offer a point you believe credible from the dozens posted.


----------



## qldfrog (15 April 2020)

No point getting involved between the little red book waving minion and common sense.
French is expected to relax lockdown on the 11/05 if slowdown of new sicks is carrying on
 nearly 16000 death so far
On restart, masks wearing mandatory in public, and doubtvon school
The French medecine board is opposed to school reopening....
Compare this to Australia....
Masks wearing no school. When you actually face the issue...
Do your own research...


----------



## moXJO (15 April 2020)

rederob said:


> There is no evidence this is true.
> So far I have found nothing credible from four separate points examined.
> Please offer a point you believe credible from the dozens posted.



The numbers are more credible then the supposed 40-60 China offered up. Look at the first fatality case. He coughed and germed up 7 days before going to hospital. Given that you have a period before symptoms show and you are still infectious. And that he was working in a market.
What would you put the R value at in a completely unprotected situation. The average is R2.2. The first case presented to hospital was November 17. And that's just the one that actually went to hospital.
That's a long time out in public.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> The numbers are more credible then the supposed 40-60 China offered up. Look at the first fatality case. He coughed and germed up 7 days before going to hospital. Given that you have a period before symptoms show and you are still infectious. And that he was working in a market.
> What would you put the R value at in a completely unprotected situation. The average is R2.2. The first case presented to hospital was November 17. And that's just the one that actually went to hospital.
> That's a long time out in public.



It seems your case relies on a lot of speculation about what was possible, but remained unproven.
If you want to show that the Chinese lied, then you need to offer substantive evidence.  
It is no small matter for any nation to advise the WHO that you know something that you cannot substantiate, and then for the WHO to tell the rest of the world that based on speculation we think "x".
Lay people seem to forget that the very idea of viral pneumonia that does not respond to accepted antibiotic treatment is a huge *RED *flag, irrespective of where such an event occurred.  It was also known to Wuhan Hospital administrators at least by 25 December that a doctor had written on a record that the virus was *SARS-like.*
I can imagine Wuhan's infectious disease experts were very active beyond anything we will ever read as there are life saving protocols that must be enacted when dealing with unknown viral diseases.  I can also imagine that hospital staff seeing these protocols being enacted would be very concerned.  It is also natural in our new world of social media that "news" of these precautions could leak out.  However none of these aspects of what may have been occurring confirms that the Chinese were hiding definitive evidence of the claims you and others are making.
Based on China's previous attempt to hide SARS for as long as possible and internal repercussions of that event, a lot was now on the line for government officials failing to act transparently.
The one significant failing that I am sure will lead to heads rolling relates to changes in how patients with fever were being assessed, as from January it was (for over a week) reliant on exposure to the Wuhan wet market.  That blunder does not change what China was able to definitively prove in their official advice to the WHO.


----------



## moXJO (15 April 2020)

rederob said:


> It seems your case relies on a lot of speculation about what was possible, but remained unproven.
> If you want to show that the Chinese lied, then you need to offer substantive evidence.
> It is no small matter for any nation to advise the WHO that you know something that you cannot substantiate, and then for the WHO to tell the rest of the world that based on speculation we think "x".
> Lay people seem to forget that the very idea of viral pneumonia that does not respond to accepted antibiotic treatment is a huge *RED *flag, irrespective of where such an event occurred.  It was also known to Wuhan Hospital administrators at least by 25 December that a doctor had written on a record that the virus was *SARS-like.*
> ...



This argument gets tossed out once doctors are silenced/jailed and tests are halted. 
Very little of what I said is speculation. It either happened or the numbers point that way.
If you do the basic numbers a lot of what China says does not add up.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Very little of what I said is speculation. It either happened or the numbers point that way.



Almost every claim you have made is speculative.
Please point to one which is rock solid and supports your contentions.
You are not offering substantive evidence.
I keep asking you for it and you link to stuff that is rock bottom.


----------



## moXJO (15 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Almost every claim you have made is speculative.
> Please point to one which is rock solid and supports your contentions.
> You are not offering substantive evidence.
> I keep asking you for it and you link to stuff that is rock bottom.



I even provided supposed non existent letters. Times, dates, studies, modelling.

You on the other hand messed up debunking the first point. And once again the goalposts are shifting.

Let's talk about Tedros. I doubt most posters would know his history.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> I even provided supposed non existent letters.



I had not seen the letter, but it simply asks about what has been reported.
I showed in this thread why the very first claim in your timeline was absolutely in error.
I responded to a few more points in this thread and there was nothing to hang your hat on.
I checked most of your other points and they were more speculation.
I repeat, you have offered zero definitive evidence to show that China has lied or that the WHO has been complicit.
This will be my last reply to you on this topic unless you have hard evidence rather than the *speculation *you continue to sprout.


----------



## moXJO (15 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I had not seen the letter, but it simply asks about what has been reported.
> I showed in this thread why the very first claim in your timeline was absolutely in error.
> I responded to a few more points in this thread and there was nothing to hang your hat on.
> I checked most of your other points and they were more speculation.
> ...




You cannot in all seriousness say China hasn't lied. 
I even showed their track record in previous posts of them fudging figures.

And you didn't show anything. You were guessing dates of infection.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> You cannot in all seriousness say China hasn't lied.
> And you didn't show anything.



You have *proved *nothing, apart from being good at speculation, and you now deny that the first point in your timeline was wrong!
At least I know why I put you on ignore.


----------



## bellenuit (15 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Ok
> Lets start with a timeline:
> 
> December 6: According to a study in _The Lancet,_ the symptom onset date of the first patient identified was “Dec 1, 2019 . . . 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalized in the isolation ward.” In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.
> ...




moXJO,

Thanks you for putting that together. It corroborates information I have seen from many sources now. Everyone on this forum, whether they agree with moXJO's political views or not, should read it to fully understand the extent that the CCP went to cover up the original outbreak and obfuscate the nature of the virus and in so doing endangering human life and well being on the planet.

Only CCP sycophants or trolls would try to argue against those damning facts. And using arguments that there is no official CCP or WHO information to support those allegations is on a par with saying the Tiananmen Square massacre never happened because there is no mention of it in the official Chinese press.

It begs the question that I have asked several times. Why did the CCP admonish Western nations for imposing travel bans from China while at the same time it was putting its own citizens under the most stringent lockdown in modern times?


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> moXJO,
> 
> Thanks you for putting that together. It corroborates information I have seen from many sources now. Everyone on this forum, whether they agree with moXJO's political views or not, should read it to fully understand the extent that the CCP went to cover up the original outbreak and obfuscate the nature of the virus and in so doing endangering human life and well being on the planet.



Really!
The very first point in the timeline is completely false.
Most of the rest relies on speculation.
This has nothing to do with political views and everything to do with what is credible.
Little wonder there are so many conspiracy theorists here.


bellenuit said:


> It begs the question that I have asked several times. Why did the CCP admonish Western nations for imposing travel bans from China while at the same time it was putting its own citizens under the most stringent lockdown in modern times?



Every country reacts to bans so what would make China different?  It went the diplomatic route that is usually taken and pretty much left it at that.  At the same time China was allowing travel openly everywhere except for the province it quarantined (and in respect of those it was actively contact tracing). 
Turning this into another conspiracy theory shows a shallow level of thinking.


----------



## moXJO (15 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Really!
> The very first point in the timeline is completely false.
> .



Umm no it wasn't  I quoted what it said in the following post. You messed up.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Umm no it wasn't  I quoted what it said in the following post. You messed up.



Please follow what is presented below this as it will show you have not properly read what was written, nor understood it.

Directly from *The Lancet's* reference which you linked to it says:
*"The symptom onset date of the first patient identified was Dec 1, 2019. None of his family members developed fever or any respiratory symptoms. No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases."*​So this makes it clear that the *first patient* admitted with symptoms cannot be the same as the patient who died because it goes on to say:
_*"The first fatal case, who had continuous exposure to the market, was admitted to hospital because of a 7-day history of fever, cough, and dyspnoea. 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalised in the isolation ward."*_​
It is impossible that anyone associated with the first patient could have had the virus, and the wife being referred to was married to the dead patient, not the first patient.
You, however concluded that:







moXJO said:


> In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.



That was impossible.

As the *first fatal case* was recorded on 10 January 2020 it was accurate for the Chinese health authorities to advise the WHO that in early January they could not confirm human to human transmission.  
This point is, however, a technicality. 
Being able to confirm - or show clear evidence - is *not the same as it cannot happen*.  It is wholly unrealistic for any medical practitioner to think that a SARS-like virus would not have human-to-human transmission capabilities.
Most lay readers will not appreciate this basic fact.
Most journalists seem clueless to this point and have engaged in speculative dribble.
Despite there being no clear evidence the WHO had warned countries about the risk of human-to-human transmission as early as 10 January, and urged precautions.


----------



## dutchie (15 April 2020)

When Political Correctness costs thousands of lives....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...es-U-S-funding-World-Health-Organization.html


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## rederob (15 April 2020)

dutchie said:


> When Political Correctness costs thousands of lives....
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...es-U-S-funding-World-Health-Organization.html



That's pretty funny because the USA is a hundred million behind in its contributions to the WHO.  Looks like another case of Trump failing to pay his contractors.


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## dutchie (15 April 2020)

rederob said:


> That's pretty funny because the USA is a hundred million behind in its contributions to the WHO.  Looks like another case of Trump failing to pay his contractors.



Maybe it would not have been as funny if I had just said.......

Political Correctness by  WHO  cost thousands of lives.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

dutchie said:


> Maybe it would not have been as funny if I had just said.......
> Political Correctness by  WHO  cost thousands of lives.



Really?
I can point to actions that were advised but not followed, in some cases for months.
On a best case scenario it would not have been possible for China to advise the WHO before mid December 2019, and that's on the basis of perfect knowledge from every individual involved.
It took Wuhan 2 weeks to go into lockdown once they realised human to human transmission was happening.
Despite this most western countries did very little until too late.  And not a single country did what was done in Wuhan because apparently we still think we know better.
I guess you are into blame and prefer to ignore how well China and the WHO have acted to an unprecedented event.


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## basilio (15 April 2020)

You don't have to be a CCP shrill to recognise that  while China made serious mistakes in the first weeks of the CV Virus it very quickly  realised how bad the situation was and took drastic steps to  bring it under control.
*And every country in the world had the opportunity to see how quickly this virus could spread unless stopped in its tracks.
*
Some countries took the required actions - Taiwan, Singarpre, Korea. Others like the US  under Donald Trump  invoked magical thinking  and routine denial and refused to either prepare its facilities  or take  serious preventative action.

The result has been a totally foreseeable disaster.

The response by Donald Trump to blame everyone else is also totally foreseeable. He never ever tales teh blame. He always looks for another scapegoat.


----------



## Logique (15 April 2020)

Serves the WHO right. Good move by the President.







> POLITICO: By ALICE MIRANDA OLLSTEIN
> _*Trump halts funding to World Health Organization*_
> https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/14/trump-world-health-organization-funding-186786
> Updated: 04/14/2020
> ...


----------



## basilio (15 April 2020)

Yep. Classic *Spawn of Satan *playback.  
*Find a scapegoat to divert attention from being  directly responsible for the biggest mass death in US history.*
This story pulls together the whole sorry saga of Trumps refusal to recognise how dangerous this virus was despite the catastrophic outcomes in China

* Trump turns against WHO to mask his own stark failings on Covid-19 crisis *
Dishonest decision to pull funding from World Health Organisation will endanger public health

Donald Trump’s declared suspension of funding of the World Health Organisation in the midst of a pandemic is confirmation – if any were needed – that he is in search of scapegoats for his administration’s much delayed and chaotic response to the crisis.

....Trump’s turn against the WHO only gathered pace over the past week, as more and more reports emerged of the administration’s own complacent and dysfunctional response.

The impact of a block on US funds is likely to mitigated by other countries, who have almost unanimously expressed confidence in the WHO, stepping up their own financial backing. The UK, for example, has announced £200m in new funding for international efforts to contain and combat the pandemic, of which £65m is earmarked for the WHO.

How well Trump’s scapegoating of the WHO will play in the US election is impossible to predict, but on the world stage it will undoubtedly be seen as yet another step in an accelerating US abdication of global leadership.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ask-his-own-stark-failings-on-covid-19-crisis


----------



## sptrawler (15 April 2020)

The problems with BIG organisations, one doesn't know who is in who's pocket, as has been shown with the Olympic committee scandals.
Just my opinion.
I think there will be a hell of a lot more politics, to play out with this virus and I think they will fall in Trumps favour, not China's.
The WHO may end up as collateral damage, who knows, but a lot more truth still has to come out IMO.
You know what the media is like when they have been barking up the wrong tree, they go rampaging, to try and impress those they have been hoodwinking.
A case in point, the media was very concerned about Boris Johnson catching virus, yet 6 months ago they were wishing him dead. lol
Reason being, Boris has proven them wrong, there has been no disaster leaving the EU, it may well prove a master stroke with regard the virus.
Again just my thoughts.


----------



## qldfrog (15 April 2020)

basilio said:


> You don't have to be a CCP shrill to recognise that  while China made serious mistakes in the first weeks of the CV Virus it very quickly  realised how bad the situation was and took drastic steps to  bring it under control.
> *And every country in the world had the opportunity to see how quickly this virus could spread unless stopped in its tracks.
> *
> Some countries took the required actions - Taiwan, Singarpre, Korea. Others like the US  under Donald Trump  invoked magical thinking  and routine denial and refused to either prepare its facilities  or take  serious preventative action.
> ...



But you have to be CCP shrill to deny the WHO did a pathetic work to please their master;
was discussed at the time, and their effort not to use the word pandemic to save  half a billion in pandemic bonds..remember the discussion;
No one sane can trust any WHO release or recommendation;
Still remember their recommendation not to eat wildlife and restrain contact with animals as part of this corona virus epidemic  .sure.... bloody useful
They have been 30 days too late on any reaction;
Symptomatic of a bloated organization with fat cats, conveniences roles at the top;

Remind me of QLD Dr Jeannette Young , our chief health officer, a mate's job gone wrong..
Cosy work, a report every 2 year since 2005..yeap 15years

I pity the on site personnel who are doing critical and dangerous work under such management, ebola coronavirus, HIV;
*There is the need for a WHO*, but definitely lessons need to be learnt and this organisation dissolved, reminds me of UNESCO both roles are needed but WHO (well its function) is even more critical to mankind future.
I admire Trump act, now we need to rebuild something efficient and technical whose leader is not chosen based on skin colour or continent of birth


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> moXJO,
> 
> Thanks you for putting that together. It corroborates information I have seen from many sources now. Everyone on this forum, whether they agree with moXJO's political views or not, should read it to fully understand the extent that the CCP went to cover up the original outbreak and obfuscate the nature of the virus and in so doing endangering human life and well being on the planet.



You don't do much checking do you!
He lifted his article from here, and it was under the unbiased heading of:
*The Comprehensive Timeline of China’s COVID-19 Lies*

So I will look at another claim it made given it stuffed up the very first point:
*"December 25: Chinese medical staff in two hospitals in Wuhan are suspected of contracting viral pneumonia and are quarantined. This is additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission."
*​And here's the evidence it relied on:
*"Around December 25, 2019 , I heard that two hospitals in Wuhan had medical personnel suspected of being infected with unexplained viral pneumonia , and were isolated, including those in the respiratory department. I realized at the time that the situation might not be simple."*​While it is not impossible this happened, especially the quarantining of other patients, given we know a doctor had diagnosed a SARS-like virus, it remains hearsay.  To claim hearsay is "*additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission" *is ambitious.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> But you have to be CCP shrill to deny the WHO did a pathetic work to please their master;
> was discussed at the time, and their effort not to use the word pandemic to save half a billion in pandemic bonds..



The only people saying this are those who do not know how the process works.
Furthermore, the WHO has no legal basis for declaring a pandemic," it's just a symbolic gesture.  They are limited to calling a "Public Health Emergency of International Concern" (PHEIC).
Pandemic bonds are *not *governed by the WHO.
Keep up the good work froggy.
It would be sad to see facts get in the way of your fairy tales.


----------



## dutchie (15 April 2020)

dutchie said:


> Maybe it would not have been as funny if I had just said.......
> 
> Political Correctness by  WHO  cost thousands of lives.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

dutchie said:


> View attachment 102308



That's true.
Thanks for reposting.


----------



## sptrawler (15 April 2020)

Well someone in Perth, who broke the self isolation rules, got a month in the 'can'.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...onavirus-quarantine-by-leaving-hotel/12149908


----------



## bellenuit (15 April 2020)

basilio said:


> You don't have to be a CCP shrill to recognise that while China made serious mistakes in the first weeks of the CV Virus it very quickly realised how bad the situation was and took drastic steps to bring it under control.




That is not the issue Bas. Yes, they took drastic action while simultaneously encouraging other countries to be lax about their response to the crisis when it came to international travel. There is no way one could justify them locking down Wuhan (and some other cities) with almost no contact allowed with others not in their unit because of the danger it posed, while denouncing other countries from not allowing the free movement of Chinese citizens in and out of their country. At that point in time they knew the virus was highly infectious and dangerous.  

One possible reason touted was that having being too late to respond themselves to the initial outbreak, they decided to intentionally cause it to spread to other countries so that the CCP could obfuscate the origins of the virus (and we know that they tried to blame the US). Also being in a better position to control their own population due to their political system, they would also be able to show how much better they were in controlling the virus that the West. This was all about protecting the CCP.

But you still haven't answered the question I posed. *Why did they condemn other countries from stopping travel to and from China while at the same time imposing the most stringent isolation regime on its own people?*

Their initial responses were not mistakes, but an attempted cover up. This is well documented, as moXJO has shown. When they condemned other countries from stopping China travel, the severity of the virus was well known by them, hence their lockdown.


----------



## sptrawler (15 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> That is not the issue Bas. Yes, they took drastic action while simultaneously encouraging other countries to be lax about their response to the crisis when it came to international travel. There is no way one could justify them locking down Wuhan (and some other cities) with almost no contact allowed with others not in their unit because of the danger it posed, while denouncing other countries from not allowing the free movement of Chinese citizens in and out of their country. At that point in time they knew the virus was highly infectious and dangerous.
> 
> One possible reason touted was that having being too late to respond themselves to the initial outbreak, they decided to intentionally cause it to spread to other countries so that the CCP could obfuscate the origins of the virus (and we know that they tried to blame the US). Also being in a better position to control their own population due to their political system, they would also be able to show how much better they were in controlling the virus that the West. This was all about protecting the CCP.
> 
> ...



Guy's untill the media blame China, a lot of the posters won't, what part of that don't you understand?
Once the media find that China is responsible, then the posters move on to the next media instigated uproar and moral indignation.
Wash, rinse, repeat.


----------



## Macquack (15 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I admire Trump act, now we need to rebuild something efficient and technical whose leader is not chosen based on skin colour or continent of birth



You have to be joking Frog?

If only, the head of the World Health Organisation was white, he could have saved the world!

What about the white guy who is Health Minister in NSW, and let a ship full of Corona Virus infected passengers just disperse into the night in NSW and then the rest of Australia. Did not hear anyone question his skin colour.


----------



## hja (15 April 2020)

Macquack said:


> You have to be joking Frog?
> 
> If only, the head of the World Health Organisation was white, he could have saved the world!
> 
> What about the white guy who is Health Minister in NSW, and let a ship full of Corona Virus infected passengers just disperse into the night in NSW and then the rest of Australia. Did not hear anyone question his skin colour.



Nah, I think he meant that they (WHO) put him there because they felt obliged or encouraged to fill minority group quotas, to add to the legitimacy or to maintain a good international appearance of such an "organisation". So not just based on colour or ethnicity, but also of geographical origin.


----------



## sptrawler (15 April 2020)

Macquack said:


> You have to be joking Frog?
> 
> If only, the head of the World Health Organisation was white, he could have saved the world!
> 
> What about the white guy who is Health Minister in NSW, and let a ship full of Corona Virus infected passengers just disperse into the night in NSW and then the rest of Australia. Did not hear anyone question his skin colour.



Yes I think frog may have been taken out of context, you wouldn't say he was William Shakespeare.
But with regard the dude who let everyone off the ship, I bet he has wad punched his undies, a few times since then.
I bet he wishes he could re run that phone call again.


----------



## rederob (15 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> That is not the issue Bas. Yes, they took drastic action while simultaneously encouraging other countries to be lax about their response to the crisis when it came to international travel. There is no way one could justify them locking down Wuhan (and some other cities) with almost no contact allowed with others not in their unit because of the danger it posed, while denouncing other countries from not allowing the free movement of Chinese citizens in and out of their country. At that point in time they knew the virus was highly infectious and dangerous.
> 
> One possible reason touted was that having being too late to respond themselves to the initial outbreak, they decided to intentionally cause it to spread to other countries so that the CCP could obfuscate the origins of the virus (and we know that they tried to blame the US). Also being in a better position to control their own population due to their political system, they would also be able to show how much better they were in controlling the virus that the West. This was all about protecting the CCP.
> 
> ...



Truly delusional so I appreciate how you foster conspiracy theories.


----------



## moXJO (16 April 2020)

rederob said:


> You don't do much checking do you!
> He lifted his article from here, and it was under the unbiased heading of:
> *The Comprehensive Timeline of China’s COVID-19 Lies*
> 
> ...



It was lifted, I don't have hours to compile a post. Here's the link to the article for December 25 that Rob left out.
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/IzzCnz4Yr2jEIYZePiu_ow

translated:



> China Youth Daily, China Youth Daily reporter Wang Jiaxing This is a self-report by a first-line doctor who is committed to fighting new pneumonia. She experienced the panic of the hospital where she was at the beginning of the epidemic, and the most extraordinary New Year's Eve in her 31 years of medical treatment. In her story, we can see the harsh truth of that special period, and we can also see the adherence of the frontline medical staff to professional responsibility. These are worth remembering. With her consent, we disclosed her real name: Director Lu Xiaohong, Department of Gastroenterology, Wuhan Fifth Hospital. I wish her and her colleagues health and safety, and wish the hospital's order and guarantee to be on track as soon as possible. She said that on December 25, 2019, she heard that there were suspected infections by medical staff; On January 2, 2020, she suggested that the hospital set up a fever clinic; From January 6th, her hospital received many suspected cases; On January 20th, she sent a text message to the principal of a nearby high school to leave the senior high school students who planned to make up classes; She also said that the video of doctors crying in the office on New Year's Eve was true. Her colleague, an old director in her 70s, sent a text message saying that she would come back to work at any time if necessary. 1 Around December 25, 2019, I heard that two hospitals in Wuhan had medical personnel suspected of being infected with unexplained viral pneumonia, and were isolated, including those in the respiratory department. I realized at the time that the situation might not be simple. In internal medicine, especially in the respiratory department, it is impossible not to know how to protect against viral pneumonia. They themselves are the most cautious and most protective of the medical staff. Even they are infected, indicating that the contagion may be very strong. Viral pneumonia occurs every year, but when I found out about it with my colleagues, I found that the virus was different this time. Some people did not cough or have a fever. Routine symptoms were all good, but the condition of lung CT films was very bad. At that time, I made my colleagues pay attention and joked that I should buy a mask. Later, the more I thought about it, the more I felt that something was wrong. When I participated in the hospital work report on the afternoon of January 2, 2020, I couldn't help but make suggestions with the hospital leaders. Should I formally open the hot clinic and establish standardized quarantine and guided procedures . Originally, the flu season also arrived, and the emergency department was under great pressure. The leader agreed on the spot. Previously, the fever clinic was attached to the outpatient clinic, and there was a possibility of cross-infection between patients. As far as I know, there are not a few hospitals in Wuhan that do not open hot clinics alone, because there is no profit for hot clinics and outpatient clinics. The next afternoon, the hospital received a request from the superior to not only set up a fever clinic, but also set up a fever ward to treat patients with unknown pneumonia. At 3 pm on January 28, the outpatient hall of Wuhan Fifth Hospital Our hospital is not a hospital for infectious diseases and does not have the conditions for isolation. At that time, a floor was freed up and we worked overnight to renovate for isolation. Around January 6th, we received two or three cases of suspected infection from the referral and a family of many suspected cases. In fact, from January 6th, our outpatient and emergency departments have received many suspected cases. On the 10th, we can no longer see the emergency department; the respiratory ward is also full, I estimate that two-thirds of them are viruses In order to avoid cross infection, non-viral pneumonia is no longer sent to the respiratory ward. In addition, there are many patients with unexplained fever who enter the gastroenterology, nephrology, cardiovascular department. After January 10, the suspected patient can only be admitted to other wards. But during this period, only the medical staff in the fever wards now wear protective clothing, and other departments, including the respiratory department, only wear white coats and general medical masks. In retrospect, it may be because the protection is not in place, and these patients can move around, resulting in the spread of the epidemic. Later, the news released by the disease control departments of various regions showed that many of the later diagnosed patients were active in Wuhan around January 10th. But at the time, the patients, medical staff, and even the medical profession did not think that this was a very serious matter, and they did not expect a blowout to happen. Around January 18th, I heard that the medical staff at the Wuhan Union Hospital had started to wear protective clothing, and they also vacated a building to treat fever patients. I realized that the situation may be severe. I urge everyone not to go around, suggest zone management and open electronic meetings, but at that time, everyone did not take it seriously. Medical staff guiding the order Monday, January 20, at 7 a.m. that morning, I sent a text message to the principal of a nearby high school to inform me that the situation was wrong and quickly took a holiday. The students in the third year of the school originally planned to continue to make up classes, and the principal listened to my words and immediately went on vacation. That night, CCTV broadcasted an interview with Zhong Nanshan, and we were convinced that the virus could be passed on from person to person. I realized that we underestimated the enemy. 2 In fact, I understand that this disease is not earlier than everyone, and I also see the confirmed information from the news. We started training for viral pneumonia on January 3rd, but no one said it was new, but just told everyone to note that this pneumonia may be a different disease than before, but at that time I did not know it was a new coronavirus pneumonia. All along, our supplies are in short supply, with less than 100 sets of protective clothing in stock. On January 21, we received a notice that the hospital should be emptied before 6 pm on the 23rd, and only fever patients would be accepted. As a frontline doctor, I was involved in the prevention and control of SARS in 2003, bird flu in 2009, and influenza A in 2012. I have experience in the prevention and treatment of respiratory infectious diseases, so I also participated in the transformation of hospital wards. We are really too short of equipment. Normally every winter flu season, heart monitors, ventilators, and oxygen oximeters are very nervous, and now it is not enough. We don't even have hooks for infusion. At 5:30 in the evening on the 22nd, the leader suddenly asked us to be consulted in advance. But at this time, the contaminated area, semi-contaminated area, and clean area are only designed, and the entire system has not yet had time to debug. Moreover, we do not have protective clothing, N95 masks and goggles. I vehemently rejected leadership. I said that if the protective equipment was not in place, you wouldn't be allowed to work, otherwise it would mean "stunning" in front of the virus. Later, a head nurse helped us borrow 7 sets of protective clothing from other departments before we started working, but there is still no N95 mask. We can only wear double or triple medical surgical masks. It stands to reason that this does not meet the specifications, but we have no way. After starting the consultation, the black crowd rushed into the outpatient department. The entire outpatient department is as messy as a vegetable market. The patients whispered to each other, many of them brought their families, and some people recorded videos, blaming us for not isolating them, and feeling that we were infected with us. In the emergency department, 10 infusions were transferred at a time, but everyone asked to call themselves first. This batch has not been processed, and the next batch comes again. Throughout the night, the nurse did not stop the injection. When one was done, the patient took the bottle to find a stool. As a result, some patients were still dissatisfied and scolded, and asked the nurse to take them to their seats. Because the goggles are a bit foggy, the nurse should remove the goggles during the injection. The nurse should have worn a mask so that she could see clearly. But we still don't have a mask. On the second day, the outpatient department was directly packed with people, and there was no place for the station. How many cross-infections would be necessary. The hospital does not have the power to manage the order, these patients go around. According to rough statistics, it takes 4 hours to see a doctor and 4 hours to wait for a CT scan of the lungs. I am very afraid of trouble. Some patients are really pitiful, some are very serious, family members cry for help, but we have no hospital beds and cannot be admitted. A doctor told me that almost all she sent to the infusions that day were "viral lungs." In the CT film, the lungs are like cotton wool, and the youngest is only 30 years old. But we really have no capacity for admission. Waiting for them to go home after injections will cause more infections. A CT scan of the lungs of a suspected patient, the lungs are basically "white" I learned later that on the evening of January 22, two thirds of the patients had been seen in other hospitals. However, many hospitals no longer send and receive fever patients, and guide patients to our designated hospitals for treatment. There were also designated hospitals who received a request from their superiors to start the consultation in advance on the evening of January 22, but the hospital's leaders refused on the grounds that they were not fully prepared. Many doctors are not prepared, have not experienced the treatment of infectious diseases, and have no experience. For example, a surgeon in a very good hospital in Wuhan did not take this patient seriously. He went to the hospital's internal medicine and emergency department. He didn't inform his colleagues about the illness in time, and everyone else followed him. Even the doctors were not alert, and the whole situation was completely passively beaten. 3 When I received our hospital's intention to switch to a designated hospital for fever patients on January 21, a doctor said that the child was still very young and he was very scared and wanted to resign. I understand her very well, and I am also afraid. But for my consideration of her career development, I still advise her to stick to it. I said, I can approve your resignation, but this will leave you a "smudge". In the future, if you go to any unit, you will be regarded as a "destroyer". She did not resign and also experienced the most chaotic scene in the hospital on the evening of January 22 as a first-line doctor. Unexpectedly, after returning home early in the morning, she began to show symptoms of infection. After returning to the hospital for examination, she was considered to be a suspected patient, but the diagnosis was not confirmed because she did not have a kit. I asked her to go home and rest quickly, but she said, "Director, I will find a place to check it. If not, I would like to come back and fight with everyone." I thought at the time, if she was cured, it would only be a pity; She is only in her 20s. In case something goes wrong, how can I survive as her director? How can I compensate a daughter and a mother in this family. This thing made me sad. I was afraid of affecting the military's heart. I hid outside and cried for a long time. We have a doctor, the child is only 7 and a half months old, and could have been home for the Chinese New Year. But after the outbreak, she forcibly cut off the baby's breast milk. Another doctor asked relatives to bring their two children back to their hometown. Her husband, who is also a doctor, had been on the front line for a long time. One night the staff was particularly scarce, and she spent the night in the front line. Considering her health, I did not schedule her class the day after. As a result, after seeing the schedule, she came to me and said that she was on call at any time, and that she should work as often as she wanted. An old director who has retired in his 70s has sent me a text message saying that he can come back to work at any time if necessary. We do not ask for praise, we just ask the patient to be safe, and only ask ourselves to be safe. This is not a pretty word, it is the basic morality of a doctor. To be honest, there is nothing that people here are not afraid of, and they are all afraid of being fake. We know that it is a big polluted area, but they are all on the front line. Everyone chooses to stay in the hotel together and stay in the hospital, just to be courageous and comfort each other. In the last half month, I can only sleep 2 or 3 hours a day because there are too many things to coordinate. I will return as soon as there is news of doctors and nurses on my phone. I just want to let them know that even if I am temporarily out of the hospital, I will be with them. Many people are afraid of infecting their family members and stay in hotels arranged by the hospital in order to stay on call. However, the canteen of the hospital only provides food for the staff on duty, and the medical staff resting in the hotel eats instant noodles and snacks. My home is near the hospital. When I am free after work, I will cook and send them to them. Because I am a high-risk group, I let my son go out to live, but my relatives are not willing to let his son go to their house because they are afraid of getting infected. But my son doesn't know how to cook, he orders noodles every day, or eats instant noodles. On New Year's Eve, I called my relatives and asked her to fry a dish and put it downstairs in the son's residence. The son went down to pick it up, at least for him to have a good meal for the Chinese New Year. I cook food for my doctor at home, but no one cooks food for my son, do you say my heart doesn't hurt? A 4 On New Year's Eve, several videos of doctors crashing and crying in the office circulated online. This is true, there is a doctor in a video from our hospital. In another video, the emotionally calling male doctor is also from our hospital. In fact, due to excessive tension and fatigue, the doctors in each department did not know how many times they cried. Death made me cry. I took over a patient whose lungs were completely fibrotic. I watched her blood oxygen drop from 80 to 70, 60, and fell a little bit. She grabbed your hand and said that the doctor begged you to save me. You said who can bear it when you see this scene as a doctor. We are willing to work hard, but the basic guarantees must be resolved. After taking off the protective clothing, everyone sweats, but the hospital has hot water only for two periods. Once the time is missed, there is no way to take a shower. In the hotel arranged by the hospital, there are only two rooms in one department, which is not enough to sleep at all, and only two people can be packed in one bed. Some medical personnel do not have protective clothing and N95 masks, but can only wear isolation clothing and multi-layer masks There are too many patients, we can't keep our peace of mind, but we must want to let the patients survive. Everyone is racing against Grim Reaper. An emergency doctor asked the equipment department to provide another ventilator, because the previous one had been sent to the ICU after resuscitating a patient. There are too many patients and the scene is chaotic. I once suggested that you can make a questionnaire to tick the patient, set up several sets of prescriptions, and let the doctor check it, which can improve efficiency; there are two doors in the clinic, you can arrange a door to enter, and a door to exit, just like security ; Fever is divided into two areas, one area looks at light heat, the other looks at high fever. But everyone has given up on vacation to get on the front line, and their opinions are too late to be accepted. I understand. In the past few days, the situation has eased a lot. The city ’s new pneumonia prevention and control headquarters has arranged categorical diagnosis and treatment. Some feverish citizens went to the community health service center for screening. The number of outpatients in the hospital decreased a few days ago. At 3 pm on January 28, the patient went to the clinic and took CT scans, which were arranged for one to two hours, but the infusion still had to be arranged for three or four hours. Now the security and cleaning staff are also wearing blue isolation suits, and the hospital is in good order. But we still have no idea. N95 masks are still missing. I don't know if the materials behind can keep up. I started working as a doctor at the age of 21 and became one of the youngest directors of the hospital at the age of 34. I will be 52 years old this year. I sincerely hope that there will be no such experience again, and hope that the hospital management will be better in the future and the prevention and control of infectious diseases will be better. One day before going to work, I told my colleagues that we were going to fight and take care of ourselves. We killed a blood and survived. When the epidemic has passed, we will travel abroad collectively, and I will pay for it alone. I said, as long as I live, it counts. (Mu Hongju also contributed to this article) This article was independently produced by China Youth Daily, first published in China Youth Daily client and headline, and joined the tree project. PS: We are looking for interviewees! Whether you are in Hubei or other areas, whether you are in an urban or rural area, as long as you are a medical worker, patient, patient's family member, public official, medical protection equipment manufacturer who is fighting the epidemic ... as long as you notice and learn something about us Please contact us for clues and situations that are very important in responding to the epidemic. Please let the information flow, not "isolate"! The contact number of the reporter is as follows (WeChat same number, the reporter may be interviewing, yes






> Directly from *The Lancet's* reference which you linked to it says:
> *"The symptom onset date of the first patientidentified was Dec 1, 2019. None of his family members developed fever or any respiratory symptoms. No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases."*
> So this makes it clear that the *first patient* admitted with symptoms cannot be the same as the patient who died because it goes on to say:
> _*"The first fatal case, who had continuous exposure to the market, was admitted to hospital because of a 7-day history of fever, cough, and dyspnoea. 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalised in the isolation ward."*_




These were two separate cases. Not sure if it was a copy and paste error, or the publication error. It looks like publishing error. As they assumed the date of infection of the first guy that died, was around the same time as the first infection.
Regardless, the wet market was shut 1st of Jan. So the date this guy was admitted to hospital is in question for a clearer picture and this is a case already in the spotlight and harder to hide. Unfortunately any data on the date or name is hard to find.  
Just found this:
*He was taken to Wuhan Puren Hospital on 26 December with a fever and difficulty breathing, and died on 9 January.*

His name was Mr Zeng
https://www.nchrd.org/2020/02/what-do-we-know-about-the-coronavirus-victims/
Wei Guixian (possibly patient zero) also caught it early on.  And recovered early January. Her family members also caught it.

Now as for the argument. Mine is China hid data and lied. Realistically WHO could do very little at the start but then completely botched it going forward. So they dropped the ball. 

Shilling for CCP while good doctors or people of China sacrifice themselves and risk guaranteed punishment deserves contempt.
So yes you lot are CCP shills.


----------



## bellenuit (16 April 2020)

*China didn’t warn public of likely pandemic for 6 key days*

https://apnews.com/68a9e1b91de4ffc166acd6012d82c2f9


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## moXJO (16 April 2020)

And Robbie the truth will come out.


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## moXJO (16 April 2020)

basilio said:


> You don't have to be a CCP shrill to recognise that  while China made serious mistakes in the first weeks of the CV Virus it very quickly  realised how bad the situation was and took drastic steps to  bring it under control.
> *And every country in the world had the opportunity to see how quickly this virus could spread unless stopped in its tracks.
> *
> Some countries took the required actions - Taiwan, Singarpre, Korea. Others like the US  under Donald Trump  invoked magical thinking  and routine denial and refused to either prepare its facilities  or take  serious preventative action.
> ...



Officials jailed doctors  and hid data. It was only till they couldn't hide it anymore that something was done.


----------



## moXJO (16 April 2020)

> NTD News on March 29, 2020 Beijing time] Why did the CCP virus (Wuhan pneumonia) epidemic out of control? During the two sessions of Hubei and Wuhan, why was the epidemic information that should be released according to law interrupted? During the interruption, what is the epidemic information in Wuhan? Han Fuzheng, a lawyer from Hebei Shuning Law Firm, submitted a “Government Information Disclosure Application” to the National Health and Welfare Committee of the Communist Party of China on February 18 for the above-mentioned doubts, applying for the disclosure of “unexplained pneumonia” (ie, CCP pneumonia) testing Daily newspapers and other content. Recently, the National Health Commission of the Communist Party of China replied to the above-mentioned application, arguing that the information it requested to disclose was "process information." Before the epidemic prevention and control work was completed, information that had not been verified or not finalized was not disclosed. . According to "Southern Metropolis Daily", Han Fuzheng submitted the "Application for Government Information Disclosure" to six departments of the Communist Party of China in February, including the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission, the Wuhan Municipal Center for Disease Control, the Hubei Provincial Health Commission, and the Hubei Provincial Control Center, National Health and Health Commission, National Disease Control Center. The content of the application for disclosure includes: from the beginning of December 2019 to January 20, 2020, the Wuhan Municipal Committee received "an unexplained group disease or unexplained pneumonia" or "unknown pneumonia" or "crown" "Virus pneumonia" test daily report and special report and other content and report time; the results of the research and judgments obtained by the three batches of expert groups; the epidemic prevention and control recommendations put forward by the National Disease Control Center of the Communist Party of China and other five contents. Han Fuzheng said that the basis for his mention of government information disclosure is Article 27 of the “Regulations on the Disclosure of Government Information of the People ’s Republic of China”: In addition to government information proactively disclosed by administrative agencies, citizens, legal persons or other organizations may 1. Foreign government departments at or above the county level who perform administrative functions in their own names apply for relevant government information. He said, "Based on the right to know and supervision, citizens can apply to the government for information disclosure, and the government should also respond to social concerns." On March 9, the National Health Commission of the Communist Party of China responded to Han Fuzheng ’s application, arguing that the information it requested to be disclosed “was process information such as the exchange of opinions between various departments during the epidemic prevention and control period, and request reports, etc. Before the completion of the control work, unverified or non-final conclusion information will not be disclosed; the application of the specific time is a petition consultation, and will not be processed as a government information disclosure application. " Regarding this reply, Han Fuzheng said, "the statement that" unverified or non-final conclusion information will not be published "is not valid." He emphasized that the information he requested to be disclosed was not "procedural." information". "None of the information I applied for is open for discussion or approval, but has already been formed and cannot be changed. For example, the content reported by Hubei Province to the National Health and Safety Commission is part or all of the facts that have occurred. It is recorded that what has been reported cannot be withdrawn and re-examined and verified again. " Therefore, Han Fuzheng is prepared to file an administrative lawsuit in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Administrative Procedure Law, requesting the authorities to cancel the previous reply and give a new reply, and disclose relevant government information on the content of the application. (Reporter Xiao Jing comprehensive report / responsible editor: Ming Xuan)




https://www.ntdtv.com/gb/2020/03/28/a102810723.html/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Sooner or later...


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## qldfrog (16 April 2020)

Macquack said:


> You have to be joking Frog?
> 
> If only, the head of the World Health Organisation was white, he could have saved the world!
> 
> What about the white guy who is Health Minister in NSW, and let a ship full of Corona Virus infected passengers just disperse into the night in NSW and then the rest of Australia. Did not hear anyone question his skin colour.



Nothing about  being white, reread... Don't tell me you belong to the permanently offended brigate?
Like many positions of UN or international organisations, or even who becomes pope:
Heads of are being chosen based on alliances, geographical origins AND skin colour
You will discover a subtle rotation between asian, westerner, african , middle east.
When a position is open: competence is the last of the worries, it is a diplomatic game of power influence.
Really sorry to opening your eyes
The current WHO head is an incompetent servant to his master.
And BTW this started long ago when the US was the key superpower, the master has changed and is China that's all.


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## rederob (16 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> It was lifted, I don't have hours to compile a post. Here's the link to the article for December 25 that Rob left out.
> https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/IzzCnz4Yr2jEIYZePiu_ow
> 
> translated:
> ...



So China had no way of knowing about human to human transmission when you claimed it would have.
And all your points are pure speculation, apart from difficult to make sense from.
And because you actually have no evidence you call me a shill.

Your case is that "*China hid data and lied*" and not once have you shown this is true.
Here are some process steps that make sense of what happened:

patients with fever as a result of the flu - common this time of year - attend various hospitals for treatment
some patients do not respond to antibiotics - the conventional treatment, which can happen, but does not immediately set off alarm bells - you need about a week to be sure of a non-response
by mid December at best this number would have been about half a dozen
other treatment options would be tried and allowed to run their course
we are now talking about the third week of December and a handful of new new cases of non-response would be noticed
we know that a doctor noted in his medical records on 25 December that SARS-like symptoms were diagnosed
we know that District Health Authorities became aware of a viral pneumonia of unknown cause on 27 December
we know that on 28 December these concerns were passed on to Municipal and Provincial Health Authorities and their respective Health Commissions - we are talking about multiple layers of bureaucracy all acting within 24 hours
we know that by 29 December field investigations from local Centres of Disease Control (CDC) were being undertaken, leading to the wet market closure a few days later
we know that on 30 December the Wuhan CDC advised the China CDC
we know that on 31 December China CDC advised the WHO
we know on that day the Chinese public were also made aware via 2 reports aired on CCTV and a public accessible web page link to the Wuhan Health Commissions advisory 
we know this advisory was reported by international media that day and that Taiwan apparently contacted the WHO on the basis of media reports and not the advisory - very strange way of going about it!
we know that the WHO took immediate action to learn more and report to member nations
we know that on 3 January the US health Department was in direct contact with Chinese health officials about the virus and remained in contact while Trump was making false statements in regard to what was actually being advised to his country
Much of the diatribe against China is based on hindsight inference and assumes China had perfect knowledge of a new virus from the first time a patient presented.  That's not the real world, but makes for a good retrospective kicking of the country, as many here are indulging in.

Medically speaking it would have been difficult for doctors early on to consider that a brand new virus was at play as viral pneumonia cases were an annual problem that time of year.  For those who ever watched the TV series *House*, starring Hugh Laurie, you would have some idea of what needed to happen to know in the first place that this disease was in fact *novel*.  It's not an assessment that comes easy nor quickly.  Egos are at play and mistakes happen.  And as in *House*, getting hospital administrators to believe you is not a simple process.

So it took hospital administrators less than a week to be certain their doctors had discovered a virus of unknown etiology, and that needed to act.

Where is data being hidden at this stage, and who is lying?


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## IFocus (16 April 2020)

I suppose one test of how countries could or should have responded, lied, obfuscated, made up stories, played politics with the WHO, blamed everyone else, said ....it will just go away about the virus is to tally the infection rate / deaths.

Lets randomly chose China and the US how do they stake up.


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## Logique (16 April 2020)

The WHO has real questions to answer:
- Re-opening of the China wet markets - is fine by the WHO
- Blocking of Taiwan's membership on China's say so - is fine by the WHO
- Initial (false) denial of human-to-human transmission - was fine by the WHO

Is it a competent UN agency, or just a China quisling?

4BC 1116: https://www.4bc.com.au/world-health-organisation-supports-reopening-of-chinese-wet-markets/
_Exotic animal *‘wet markets’*, believed to be the origin of the coronavirus, are reopening in China with the World Health Organisation’s blessing.
The WHO’s decision to support the reopening of wet markets has bolstered speculation the Chinese government has undue influence over the United Nations agency...._

CNBC Markets: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/06/coronavirus-taiwan-lashes-out-at-china-for-blocking-who-access.html
_Taipei lashes out at China for blocking Taiwan’s access to the World Health Organization_
@HUILENG_TAN ; 6 Feb 2020
_Due to Beijing’s objections, *Taiwan has been denied* [one of the most successful international responses] membership to most international organizations including the WHO — a United Nations agency. Beijing considers Taiwan as part of its territory that must one day be reunified with the mainland and should have no right to participate in international diplomacy..._


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## rederob (16 April 2020)

Logique said:


> The WHO has real questions to answer:
> - Re-opening of the China wet markets - is fine by the WHO
> - Blocking of Taiwan's membership on China's say so - is fine by the WHO
> - Initial (false) denial of human-to-human transmission - was fine by the WHO
> ...



Keep it up - make sure all the deflectors on your tin hat are working properly.
Just so you know, there remains no evidence that wet markets were the basis of the virus.  Wet markets and *exotic *wet markets are two different types of markets.  Wet markets are the literal life blood of most Chinese villages.
Taiwan comes under the "one China" policy which both the USA and Australia, amongst most nearly every country on the planet, agree with.
There was no false denial by the WHO.

You are a factless vacuum and Sinophobe who propagates retrospective nonsense.


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## rederob (16 April 2020)

For those who have a semblance of sense and read these threads, here's the logic that would be applied to what has happened if you think China and the WHO got it wrong:

doctors can't find a cure to an unidentifiable viral pneumonia
they immediately tell the authorities
the authorities tell the WHO
the WHO tells the rest of the world there is going to be a pandemic and says all countries should go into a lockdown
That makes sense.
So lets roll this out....
Someone thinks to ask the WHO, "what is the nature of the virus?" and is told they do not know.
Then they ask about transmission and they are told there are not even 50 cases so they don't know.
Then they ask how they know there will be a pandemic and the response is "we need to *assume *the worst."
Major economies buck up and say "we can't close our borders if you don't know what we need to know."
And WHO say, "what if we are right?"
And they are told "what if you are wrong?  You want us to destroy our economies because it's like SARS, and we controlled SARS?"
And then the WHO is told in no uncertain terms that without incontrovertible evidence nations will do nothing.

So, back to the real world. 
When China was certain of something, it told the WHO.  The WHO did not take the advice as gospel and took action to satisfy itself that the information was reliable.
The WHO bases it's advice on evidence they are able to verify or they are in breach of their charter.
In this matter the WHO have been operating at two distinct levels.  The public level lets us hear what they are saying in lay terms.  The operational level (the level that Trump has now withdrawn funding from) gets into the nitty gritty of response mechanisms, information and resource sharing.

Rather than focus on solving the problems now facing us, the media and uninformed elements are instead indulging in a retrospective attempt to apportion *blame*.  It was not done when the USA completely mishandled the swine flu in 2009 and hundreds of thousands died across the world.  But it's become _de rigueur_ to find a reason to blame China nowadays because there is reshaping of the world order and we remain afraid of the "yellow peril."


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## qldfrog (16 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> you wouldn't say he was William Shakespeare.



Indeed between english as a second language learnt in my teens from non native speakers and typing on the bloody guessing keyboard on the phone, i can hold the palm of the worst formulated posts.
Nothing to be proud of, i admit


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## Dona Ferentes (16 April 2020)

Sorry for interrupting the diatribes, but I found this useful - even if it is only NSW focused



> The university hopes its creation can aid the state government and influence policy making and ultimately the lifting of restrictions in certain areas earlier than others.
> 
> The map provides information on the socio-economic status of people as well as what percentage of the residents of that area are aged over 60.



https://covid19-data.sydney.edu.au/


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## moXJO (16 April 2020)

rederob said:


> So China had no way of knowing about human to human transmission when you claimed it would have.
> And all your points are pure speculation, apart from difficult to make sense from.
> And because you actually have no evidence you call me a shill.
> 
> ...



You are a shill. 


Regardless, you skipped over a lot. The 1st patient to die and human to human transfer were still well before any announcements was made.

Doctors were silenced and detained after the alerts. You discredited a doctor above account as hearsay.
We have doctors risking their freedom and career. Who's only benefits to releasing data is to warn others and you basically skip over that part.

An order to stop investigating was sent to labs.


> As early as Dec. 27, a Guangzhou-based genomics company had sequenced most of the virus from fluid samples from the lung of a 65-year old deliveryman who worked at the seafood market where many of the first cases emerged. The results showed an alarming similarity to the deadly SARS coronavirus that killed nearly 800 people between 2002 and 2003.
> 
> Around that time, local doctors sent at least eight other patient samples from hospitals around Wuhan to multiple Chinese genomics companies, including industry heavyweight BGI, as they worked to determine what was behind a growing number of cases of unexplained respiratory disease. The results all pointed to a dangerous SARS-like virus.
> 
> ...



I'll investigate further as I know you like smoking guns.

We also have China's national detection system they implemented after SARS.


> *China Created a Fail-Safe System to Track Contagions. It Failed.*
> After SARS, Chinese health officials built an infectious disease reporting system to evade political meddling. But when the coronavirus emerged, so did fears of upsetting Beijing.
> 
> Image_
> ...




And then we have the huge holes in the details of what went on. The difference between the US and China is Trump can be found out through freedom of information. 
Just to find out basic information from China is near impossible.


You try and provide this clean timeline similar to the figures they put out. Doctored for the rest of the world.


----------



## moXJO (16 April 2020)

rederob said:


> For those who have a semblance of sense and read these threads, here's the logic that would be applied to what has happened if you think China and the WHO got it wrong:
> 
> doctors can't find a cure to an unidentifiable viral pneumonia
> they immediately tell the authorities
> ...



This only makes sense if you ignore everything else that went on. You would have to be blind.
Taiwan acted December. It took to mid to late Jan for anything to be acknowledge from China and WHO.


----------



## moXJO (16 April 2020)

And let's talk about Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus history and the current arrangements with China and Ethiopia.
No speculation, it's already history.


----------



## rederob (16 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Regardless, you skipped over a lot. The 1st patient to die and human to human transfer were still well before any announcements was made.



You said they knew by mid-December.
It was a blatant lie.
The WHO announced before the first patient died that human to human transfer was possible.
Stop making up stuff as it's tedious dealing with your poorly based claims.


moXJO said:


> You discredited a doctor above account as hearsay.



Not only was it hearsay, it was post fact and second hand at that!
*"Around December 25, 2019 , I heard that two hospitals in Wuhan had medical personnel suspected of being infected with unexplained viral pneumonia."*​In *retrospect *this it's easy to make vague claims, and I don't even deny that it could be true - it was 25 December after all!  
I reckon quarantining steps would have commenced at least a week earlier as the infectious disease team stays alive by implementing strict safety protocols.  
The issue is that at this time they clearly had no idea what they were dealing with as patients were non-responsive to proven treatment regimes.
Rather than indulge in speculation, add some perspective to how real world events occur rather than let baseless assumptions cascade into the world of conspiracy.
I have no doubt that prior to the WHO being notified there would have been administrative missteps made as doctors were conjecturing over and ruling out the nature of possible viral infections causing symptoms that were atypical.  But "hindsight" was not a luxury being afforded at that time.
It's one thing to be "*unsure*" the virus was "*unknown*" and another to "*prove it"* to a standard that gave administrators the confidence to pass this knowledge to the highest authorities in the country.


----------



## rederob (16 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> This only makes sense if you ignore everything else that went on. You would have to be blind.
> Taiwan acted December. It took to mid to late Jan for anything to be acknowledge from China and WHO.



OMG.
Taiwan sent a message to the WHO based on a media report of what remains publicly accessible to this day.  Taiwan knows full well the communication channels for information and have grandstanded to inept journalists on this communication.
It is completely untrue to day the WHO has not been advising Taiwan about what it is doing and the WHO took an unusual step to issue a statement about this matter; unusual because Taiwan is not a member nation and it would be akin to them responding to a question from the Premier of Tasmania!
Both Korea and Taiwan implemented measures at their borders in early January, and both are now standout performers in terms of mitigating spread.  Well done!  The information was not being hidden and a number of other countries followed suit.
This seems to raise the question as to how other nations were getting it so wrong for so long.


----------



## moXJO (16 April 2020)

rederob said:


> You said they knew by mid-December.
> It was a blatant lie.
> The WHO announced before the first patient died that human to human transfer was possible.
> Stop making up stuff as it's tedious dealing with your poorly based claims.
> ...



It was more than likely true they suspected just after mid December. These were just the doctors willing to come forward. 
They had protocols in place to deal with this after SARS the local officials hid the information right up to the point it could no longer be hidden.
Doctors had sent samples to labs.

Look at the infection rate in countries that had prepared somewhat. Then look at the density of wuhan and how many interactions there would have been. There is no way covid was tame during this time. And where were the figures?

From Jan 1st there should have been definitive  action. 

WHO complacency when it should be anything but in those early days cost lives. So it's only natural they should be out under the blowtorch.

I wouldn't speculate if there weren't so many suspect steps in the story. Or  if I ignored the CCPs prior history. You have to remember that they released a propaganda pamphlet saying italy or US was the cause. We also have information scrubbing going along with a misinformation campaign.
Hardly the actions of someone with nothing to hide.


----------



## rederob (16 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> It was more than likely true they suspected just after mid December. These were just the doctors willing to come forward.
> They had protocols in place to deal with this after SARS the local officials hid the information right up to the point it could no longer be hidden.
> Doctors had sent samples to labs.
> 
> ...



Absolutely devoid of evidence you insist on spreading what you prefer to believe.
*At no point have you shown you know what you are talking about.*

On 1 January the WHO took action to confirm what was being advised to them rather than assume it had to be true.  Once they were satisfied, they sent out their advisories in keeping with protocols.  Using the USA as an example, by 3 January direct communication with Chinese health authorities commenced.  US health authorities have never said the Chinese lied to them or withheld information.  The US secretary for Health was interviewed at length by the BBC and made it clear that cooperation was occurring and ongoing.

I won't be responding to you again as you continue to make debunked claims and seem oblivious to reality.


----------



## bellenuit (16 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> I suppose one test of how countries could or should have responded, lied, obfuscated, made up stories, played politics with the WHO, blamed everyone else, said ....it will just go away about the virus is to tally the infection rate / deaths.
> 
> Lets randomly chose China and the US how do they stake up.




The incompetence of the Trump administration has zero to do with how China initially covered up the virus and subsequently condemned restriction of travel to/from China while maintain an extreme lockdown on intra-China travel.

Do not let China get off the hook with this. I equally abhor Trumps reaction and everything about him, but this is a China issue.


----------



## moXJO (16 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Absolutely devoid of evidence you insist on spreading what you prefer to believe.
> *At no point have you shown you know what you are talking about.*
> 
> On 1 January the WHO took action to confirm what was being advised to them rather than assume it had to be true.  Once they were satisfied, they sent out their advisories in keeping with protocols.  Using the USA as an example, by 3 January direct communication with Chinese health authorities commenced.  US health authorities have never said the Chinese lied to them or withheld information.  The US secretary for Health was interviewed at length by the BBC and made it clear that cooperation was occurring and ongoing.
> ...



It's who job to investigate. Not eat CCP figures.
You didn't debunk anything. You sprouted a CCP timeline.
US were not allowed to get boots on the ground till late in the development. Taiwan were blocked from accessing where they need to go for data. Want to tell me the date WHO actually put boots on the ground.


> A health data researcher says China's coronavirus numbers have been vastly under-reported, perhaps by a factor of 10.
> 
> At the moment, the country where the SARS-CoV-2 virus first emerged has reported a confirmed 82,809 cases of infection and 3333 deaths from COVID-19, the disease it causes.
> 
> ...




There's a lot of models out there that ain't massaged figures. Want to call them into question? 
Or are models not  kosher enough for you?


----------



## moXJO (16 April 2020)

rederob said:


> I won't be responding to you again as you continue to make debunked claims and seem oblivious to reality.



Following the same script...
It's almost a carbon copy from last time. All you argument fall apart based on the fact the figures are dubious.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-te.sars21apr21-story.html



> BEIJING - In a rare admission of serious mistakes, the Chinese government fired the minister of health and the mayor of Beijing yesterday for their early mishandling of the respiratory disease known as SARS, canceled a national weeklong holiday and reported almost 10 times as many SARS cases in Beijing, with hundreds more likely to come.
> 
> After weeks of claims to the contrary, health officials acknowledged a full-fledged outbreak in the capital, with 346 confirmed cases of severe acute respiratory syndrome and 18 deaths, with 400 more suspected cases under evaluation.
> 
> ...




You tell me who is "oblivious to reality".


----------



## IFocus (16 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> The incompetence of the Trump administration has zero to do with how China initially covered up the virus and subsequently condemned restriction of travel to/from China while maintain an extreme lockdown on intra-China travel.
> 
> Do not let China get off the hook with this. I equally abhor Trumps reaction and everything about him, but this is a China issue.




I don't believe much that the CCP says and much less what Trump says but to me the argument is pointless until real investigations and knowledge is gained about the virus and that will take time.

Too many have a finger in the current stories doing the rounds with unlimited agenders.
WHO at the moment are saying they don't know the origins of the Virus.

On a different note a number that came up yesterday really shocked me 2,000 care homes in the UK have had outbreaks of the Virus and are not counting the deaths.

Some one (maybe Boris) should be taken around the back and shot I couldn't imagine that happening here our state and federal governments so far have done an outstanding job.  

Talking of causing deaths how many will die in developing counties thanks to Trump pulling funding.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> I don't believe much that the CCP says and much less what Trump says




Communists versus a narcissist.

I'd have more faith in what a used car salesman tells me really. At least they won't argue about undeniable stuff like the make and model.


----------



## basilio (16 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> I don't believe much that the CCP says and much less what Trump says but to me the argument is pointless until real investigations and knowledge is gained about the virus and that will take time.
> 
> Talking of causing deaths how many will die in developing counties thanks to Trump pulling funding.




At some stage everyone has to have a look at what happened, how this virus came about, how it spread and most importantly what *could have/should have been done at the early stages to  minimise its effect.
*
Actually I would be confident that my bolded comment is already well understood in  medical and government circles. The last outbreaks have created plans and structures that are supposed to be wheeled out to maximise the capacity to treat people and to prevent further infection. The problem has always been convincing politicians to treat the issue seriously and take action promptly.

Right now the world is playing catch up on dealing with the epidemic. This heated debate about blaming the Chinese for starting it,  is just a smokescreen by Donald Trump to divert attention from his disastrous practices at dealing with a *known* epidemic from  mid late January onwards.


----------



## moXJO (16 April 2020)

basilio said:


> Right now the world is playing catch up on dealing with the epidemic. This heated debate about blaming the Chinese for starting it,  is just a smokescreen by Donald Trump to divert attention from his disastrous practices at dealing with a *known* epidemic from  mid late January onwards.



This is perhaps the dumbest comment yet.


----------



## basilio (16 April 2020)

[QUOTE="moXJO, post: 1068021, member: 4631"*]This is perhaps the dumbest comment ye*t.[/QUOTE]

 Nope moXjo.  Your response beats  it by the length of the straight.


----------



## bellenuit (16 April 2020)

basilio said:


> At some stage everyone has to have a look at what happened, how this virus came about, how it spread ...




You think that is likely when "everyone" is not given a look at what happened, only a controlled group of Chinese scientists whose investigation results are subject to CCP approval.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/13/chine...sorship-notices-for-new-coronavirus-research/

*At least two Chinese universities published and then deleted notices on new censorship rules that could squelch research into the origin of the coronavirus pandemic, according to a report.*
_
The new rules for research of COVID-19 are heightening criticism of China’s government, whose alleged under-count of cases is blamed for hindering global preparation. The research policies were first reported Saturday by The Guardian, which said a tipster alerted the newspaper to cached versions.

An April 5 notice posted by the China University of Geosciences (Wuhan) said *a university academic committee would review research into the origin of the virus “with an emphasis on checking the accuracy of the thesis, as well as whether it is suitable for publication” before turning it over to the authorities to review.*

“*When the checks have been completed, the school should report to the Ministry of Science and Technology, and it should only be published after it has [also] been checked by MOST,*” the notice said.

An April 9 notice posted by Fudan University in Shanghai said that, according to the central government’s State Council, “Papers related to virus tracing should be managed strictly.” The memo outlined similar review steps.

......

The Guardian reported that it received, but could not validate, a third document from the Renmin Hospital of Wuhan University that also said *research into the origins of the virus had to be sent to Beijing for approval before publication.*_

_......._
*
“They are seeking to transform it from a massive disaster to one where the government did everything right and gave the rest of the world time to prepare,” Kevin Carrico, a senior research fellow of Chinese studies at Monash University, told The Guardian.
*


----------



## satanoperca (16 April 2020)

basilio said:


> [QUOTE="moXJO, post: 1068021, member: 4631"*]This is perhaps the dumbest comment ye*t.




 Nope moXjo.  Your response beats  it by the length of the straight.[/QUOTE]

Trying to say out of forums, as I think everyone has gone a little crazy.

But your response Basilio is the dumbest yet.

The Don f--ked up HOWEVER

The CCP f---ked up even more.

Which is the lesser of 2 evils, neither one.


----------



## bellenuit (16 April 2020)

*China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest
*
_Move is likely to be part of attempt to control the narrative surrounding the pandemic_
*
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-suggest*


----------



## moXJO (16 April 2020)

Trump will get voted out. Wake me when the same applies in China.


----------



## wayneL (16 April 2020)

Waiting for the day party hacks STFU.

How bad does s*** have to get before this happens


----------



## hja (16 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *China clamping down on coronavirus research, deleted pages suggest
> *
> _Move is likely to be part of attempt to control the narrative surrounding the pandemic_
> *
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-suggest*



Yeah well China's ministry also went to the trouble of taking down the cached version of the research. Good luck clicking on it. All you'll get is "error 404... kjc.cug.edu.cn ... - that's all we know"


----------



## Knobby22 (16 April 2020)

hja said:


> Yeah well China's ministry also went to the trouble of taking down the cached version of the research. Good luck clicking on it. All you'll get is "error 404... kjc.cug.edu.cn ... - that's all we know"



If they have s break through they will have kicked a propaganda goal. 
To the nations under their influence in Asia and Africa it will act as a way to show they are the strength.


----------



## IFocus (16 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> Waiting for the day party hacks STFU.
> 
> How bad does s*** have to get before this happens




Agree Republicans and Trump and their supporters have a lot to answer for.


----------



## DB008 (17 April 2020)

*China takes a page from Russia's disinformation playbook*​
The Chinese Communist Party has spent the past week publicly pushing conspiracy theories intended to cast doubt on the origins of the coronavirus, and thus deflect criticism over China's early mishandling of the epidemic.

Why it matters: The strategy is a clear departure from Beijing's previous disinformation tactics and signals its increasingly aggressive approach to managing its image internationally.

What's happening: Verified Chinese government Twitter accounts, Chinese embassies and consulates, and some Chinese media outlets have promoted several different conspiracy theories about the origins of the coronavirus.


One theory, tweeted multiple times by Chinese foreign ministry deputy spokesperson Zhao Lijian and boosted by official Chinese state media, states that the virus may have come from a U.S. military lab.
Another suggests the disease first appeared in Italy in November, before it appeared in Wuhan.
Numerous pronouncements from a variety of Chinese government sources have stated more vaguely that the virus may not have come from Wuhan, the city in Hubei where the outbreak began.
Reality check: Virologists say the coronavirus shows no signs of being engineered in a lab, and epidemiologists agree that the first outbreak was in Wuhan.


China's ambassador to the U.S. Cui Tiankai has disavowed the conspiracy theory, calling it "crazy" in an interview with "Axios on HBO."
The big picture: Beijing is emulating Russia's disinformation playbook.


"What we’ve seen over the past week and a half over COVD-19 in terms of Chinese party-state manipulation has been a real departure from what we have seen in the past," Laura Rosenberger, director of the Alliance for Securing Democracy at the German Marshall Fund of the United States, tells Axios.
Rosenberger points to three main tactics that Beijing has applied in its coronavirus messaging campaign that clearly resemble Russian strategy:


The propagation of "multiple conflicting theories."
The amplification of "conspiracy websites," which Rosenberger said are third-party sites without funding transparency that promote the same theories the state aims to boost.
The coordinated use of diplomatic and embassy Twitter accounts and state-backed media to help boost the theories.
Russian disinformation tactics typically aim to destabilize the information environment through spreading conspiracy theories, with the goal of creating chaos and discord in target societies. This strategy has been widely deployed in recent years to:


Interfere in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.
Disassociate Russia from its poisoning of former Russian military officer Sergei Skripal on British soil in 2018.
Cast doubt on Russia's role in the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine in July 2014.
But Chinese Communist Party disinformation has previously followed methodology and goals distinctly different from Russia's.


Chinese information operations typically aim to uphold a single immutable narrative that casts the Chinese Communist Party in a positive light.
There is intense censorship inside China of information that makes the party look bad, as well as suppression of dissenting narratives outside China. The suppression is often done through coercion — increasingly, by threatening to deny market access to organizations if they say things the party doesn't like.
The goal isn't to destabilize the information environment, but rather to make Beijing appear unassailably good.
But unlike Russia, this strategy typically doesn't target foreign societies beyond their perceptions of China.
It isn't either/or. Beijing continues to employ the above strategy both at home and abroad as it strives to deflect blame for its early cover-up of the epidemic and to show itself a more reliable partner to countries than the United States.


China has embarked on an international humanitarian relief campaign to provide medical supplies to dozens of countries fighting outbreaks of their own, accompanied by a major propaganda blitz.
It's an "aggressive information campaign to portray China as the new partner of first resort," said Rosenberger, and " U.S. missteps" have created "fertile ground" for this message to take hold.


https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-c...ook-c49b6f3b-2a9a-47c1-9065-240121c9ceb2.html


----------



## dutchie (17 April 2020)

*Coronavirus: EU offers 'heartfelt apology' to Italy*
*https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...s-to-italy-for-coronavirus-response-1.4230672*

Wonder when China will apologise to the world ???

Don't hold your breath.


----------



## rederob (17 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> *China takes a page from Russia's disinformation playbook*​
> The Chinese Communist Party has spent the past week publicly pushing conspiracy theories intended to cast doubt on the origins of the coronavirus, and thus deflect criticism over China's early mishandling of the epidemic.
> 
> Why it matters: The strategy is a clear departure from Beijing's previous disinformation tactics and signals its increasingly aggressive approach to managing its image internationally.
> ...



*If we swap China in the above for America and Trump it reads more credibly:*

The American President has spent the past week publicly pushing conspiracy theories intended to cast doubt on the origins of the coronavirus, and thus deflect criticism over America's early mishandling of the epidemic.

Why it matters: The strategy is a clear departure from Trump’s previous disinformation tactics and signals its increasingly aggressive approach to managing his image internationally.

What's happening: Verified Trump Twitter accounts, American embassies and consulates, and some American media outlets have promoted several different conspiracy theories about the origins of the coronavirus.

One theory, tweeted multiple times by the American President and boosted by official American Presidential media, states that the virus may have come from a military lab.
Another suggests the disease first appeared in Italy in November, before it appeared in Wuhan.
Numerous pronouncements from a variety of American government sources have stated more vaguely that the virus may not have come from Wuhan, the city in Hubei where the outbreak began.
Reality check: Virologists say the coronavirus shows no signs of being engineered in a lab, and epidemiologists agree that the first outbreak was in Wuhan.

America's ambassador to China, Cui Tiankai has disavowed the conspiracy theory, calling it "crazy" in an interview with "Axios on HBO."
The big picture: Trump is emulating Russia's disinformation playbook.

"What we’ve seen over the past week and a half over COVD-19 in terms of Trump’s manipulation has been a real departure from what we have seen in the past," Laura Rosenberger, director of the Alliance for Securing Democracy at the German Marshall Fund of the United States, tells Axios.
Rosenberger points to three main tactics that Trump has applied in its coronavirus messaging campaign that clearly resemble Russian strategy:

The propagation of "multiple conflicting theories."
The amplification of "conspiracy websites," which Rosenberger said are third-party sites without funding transparency that promote the same theories the state aims to boost.
The coordinated use of diplomatic and embassy Twitter accounts and state-backed media to help boost the theories.


----------



## qldfrog (17 April 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...y/news-story/0cc5b6f2c1314e588a43447f9d43f03d
Servants and master, hum, might be able to access FB from China one day...in your dream FB....


----------



## basilio (17 April 2020)

No surprises here.

* G7 backing for WHO leaves Trump isolated at virtual summit *
Leaders voice strong support for UN agency after US suspension of its funding

Donald Trump found himself isolated among western leaders at a virtual G7 summit, as they expressed strong support for the World Health Organization after the US’s suspension of its funding.

Health officials around the world have condemned the US president’s decision to stop his country’s funding for the UN agency, amid a crisis that has left more than 2 million people infected and almost 140,000 dead.

On Thursday, G7 leaders voiced their backing for the WHO and urged international co-operation. Immediately after the hour-long conference call, a spokesman for Angela Merkel said that the German chancellor had argued that “the pandemic can only be overcome with a strong and co-ordinated international response”. The spokesman said Merkel “expressed support for the WHO as well as a number of other partners”.

The Canadian prime minister, Justin Trudeau, said: “There is a need for international coordination and the WHO is an important part of that collaboration and coordination.* We recognise that there have been questions asked, but at the same time it is really important we stay coordinated as we move through this.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...r-who-leaves-trump-isolated-at-virtual-summit*


----------



## rederob (17 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> The incompetence of the Trump administration has zero to do with how China initially covered up the virus and subsequently condemned restriction of travel to/from China while maintain an extreme lockdown on intra-China travel.



The consistency of Sinophobes in having no evidence to support their claims is mind numbing.
Chinese Government officials at the national level were advised of an unknown virus by the provincial health authority on 30 December.
China advised the WHO on 31 December.
CCTV media twice covered the issue on 31 December and the Wuhan Health Commission added known details to a website linked here previously.
Several Asian nations immediately took precautionary measures.
Despite Trump's assertions, his Health Department was in regular contact with China about the virus on 3 January.

A reason the WHO has praised China is that no epidemic notification has ever been as rapid.  The disease itself had not been identified until 3 January, and it was not possible to confirm that isolated patients all had this disease until 7 January.  Once China was absolutely certain of the cause they released the gene sequence to the WHO and the rest of the world on 12 January.

The infamous "Banquet in Wuhan" went ahead on 18 January because health officials had no definitive proof that human-to-human transmission was occurring.  Without that proof the health authority was not able to prevent Wuhan City officials from proceeding.  From this date onward, things went pear shaped - or logarithmic - especially as we now know about asymptomatic spread.

@bellenuit continues his distraction with China being upset that countries were restricting inbound flights.  At the time, China had only quarantined Wuhan, and all other international travel to and from China was business as usual.  They and other Asian nations had enacted travel protocols consistent with SARS spread, and deemed that as adequate.  Western nations, instead, sat on their hands.  America, as an example, restricted Chinese nationals from entering early on, but all Americans were simply welcomed back from China - almost half a million, before locking down. 

With the benefit of hindsight China ultimately became one of the most difficult countries to enter.  With the benefit of hindsight lots of things could have been done smarter.  However, at very worst there was a 24 hour delay between China's national officials being aware of the virus and them warning the WHO.  Concurrently this information was on CCTV several times and on the Wuhan Health Commission's website.  The notion that there was a coverup is a beatup from ill-informed Sinophobes who are happy to post and link to assumptions and innuendo when they cannot invent yet another conspiracy theory.


----------



## satanoperca (17 April 2020)

Rederob, can you point me to any empirical evidence that the virus came from bats originating from the wet markets?


----------



## moXJO (17 April 2020)

basilio said:


> No surprises here.
> 
> * G7 backing for WHO leaves Trump isolated at virtual summit *
> Leaders voice strong support for UN agency after US suspension of its funding
> ...



Didn't he say it was "a hold" on the money?
Generally that means a delay of payment before democrat impeach him.

What's stopping them from funding it more?
Seems to me a few are not pulling their weight.
Wtf is France and Canada doing.


----------



## noirua (17 April 2020)

Tiziana
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.u...A-Investor-Presentation_April-2020-rev-TL.pdf
Pages 18 and 19


----------



## moXJO (17 April 2020)

rederob said:


> The consistency of Sinophobes in having no evidence to support their claims is mind numbing.
> Chinese Government officials at the national level were advised of an unknown virus by the provincial health authority on 30 December.
> China advised the WHO on 31 December.
> CCTV media twice covered the issue on 31 December and the Wuhan Health Commission added known details to a website linked here previously.
> ...



Protocols after SARS were not met.
It was a failure. You are a shill.
If there was nothing to hide:
Doctors don't get arrested.
Labs don't get official orders to stop testing.
And data does not get withheld.

Human transmission was shown early.


----------



## moXJO (17 April 2020)

All the countries around China started early. Nothing to do with hindsight.

Taiwan, once again started December 31st


----------



## basilio (17 April 2020)

This analysis on the progress of the COVID19 virus  from an epidemiologist is sobering.  

* No matter how you crunch the numbers, this pandemic is only just getting started *
William Hanage
People are understandably looking for good news. But the truth is, we’re nowhere near controlling coronavirus

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/16/number-coronavirus-pandemic


----------



## basilio (17 April 2020)

The upside to social distancing measures...
*Coronavirus isolation measures are reducing all flu-like diseases, not just COVID-19*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/coronavirus-numbers-flu-tracking-data/12134082


----------



## sptrawler (17 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> Protocols after SARS were not met.
> It was a failure. You are a shill.
> If there was nothing to hide:
> Doctors don't get arrested.
> ...



My guess is they know exactly where the virus came from, but they want the heat to come off before making it public, last thing anyone wants is global conflict.
As you said in an earlier post the truth will come out.


----------



## moXJO (17 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is they know exactly where the virus came from, but they want the heat to come off before making it public, last thing anyone wants is global conflict.
> As you said in an earlier post the truth will come out.



If you look at the SARS post I made it is basically  following that script.


----------



## Joules MM1 (17 April 2020)

guessing fashion du jour is going to include the words "let's skip" when discussing double blind placebo controlled....
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

"...with nearly all patients discharged in less than a week, according to medical news website SThere


----------



## Joules MM1 (17 April 2020)

haha:
*Will the "Corona Virus" turn into a worldwide epidemic or fizzle out?*

how many people said yes or no to a non-yes-or-no question ?


----------



## DB008 (17 April 2020)

*China's Wuhan revises up total coronavirus death toll by 1,290 — a 50 per cent increase*​
The total number of people who have died in Wuhan, the initial epicentre of the global coronavirus outbreak, has been revised sharply up.

City officials on Friday increased the death toll by 1,290, to 3,869, state-run CCTV reported.

This represents a 50 per cent increase on the previous official total of 2,579 in the Chinese city.

Confirmed cases were also increased, by 325 to 50,333.

Many suspect China's official figures remain conservative, speculating there were more victims in the early weeks of the outbreak who died without being tested.


China's Wuhan revises up total coronavirus death toll by 1,290 — a 50 per cent increase​


----------



## DB008 (18 April 2020)

Joules MM1 said:


> how many people said yes or no to a non-yes-or-no question ?




My bad. I take full responsibility for starting thread (obviously) and question.

How should l have worded it?


----------



## DB008 (18 April 2020)

*Early peek at data on Gilead coronavirus drug*
*suggests patients are responding to treatment*​

A Chicago hospital treating severe Covid-19 patients with Gilead Sciences’ antiviral medicine remdesivir in a closely watched clinical trial is seeing rapid recoveries in fever and respiratory symptoms, with nearly all patients discharged in less than a week, STAT has learned.

Remdesivir was one of the first medicines identified as having the potential to impact SARS-CoV-2, the novel coronavirus that causes Covid-19, in lab tests. The entire world has been waiting for results from Gilead’s clinical trials, and positive results would likely lead to fast approvals by the Food and Drug Administration and other regulatory agencies. If safe and effective, it could become the first approved treatment against the disease.

The University of Chicago Medicine recruited 125 people with Covid-19 into Gilead’s two Phase 3 clinical trials. Of those people, 113 had severe disease. All the patients have been treated with daily infusions of remdesivir.
​More on link below -

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/16...uggests-patients-are-responding-to-treatment/
​


----------



## qldfrog (18 April 2020)

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/anal...-gileads-coronavirus-treatment-133340939.html
To be warned
And a copy of a link i added in the wrong thread
https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/french-prof-sparks-furor-with-lab-leak-theory/
The last point about being a leak from a lab, is probably well known by intelligence services around the world.note the tone from the article..asia time...just a nobel prize in medicine..finder of hiv virus..what does he know...
What will this turn into?
Potential war so scary..so wish it was just an accidental transmission from a  bat in a remote province


----------



## rederob (18 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> And a copy of a link i added in the wrong thread
> https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/french-prof-sparks-furor-with-lab-leak-theory/
> The last point about being a leak from a lab, is probably well known by intelligence services around the world.note the tone from the article..asia time...just a nobel prize in medicine..finder of hiv virus..what does he know...



Sadly, he's been an outcast in the world of science for the past decade because his works lack scientific merit.  So becoming a conspiracy theorist certainly makes a lot of sense.
Now I have a theory that Trump got into office because little green men manipulated the vote, and continue to be his policy advisors.  That would explain a lot!


----------



## moXJO (18 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Sadly, he's been an outcast in the world of science for the past decade because his works lack scientific merit.  So becoming a conspiracy theorist certainly makes a lot of sense.
> Now I have a theory that Trump got into office because little green men manipulated the vote, and continue to be his policy advisors.  That would explain a lot!



And your credentials?


----------



## wayneL (18 April 2020)

moXJO said:


> And your credentials?



Propagandist?


----------



## sptrawler (18 April 2020)

Just reading the headlines, seems that we are far from over it, in a World sense.
Now there are questions being asked as to if we will get a vaccine, which we talked about at the beginning of this thread, this is a virus on steroids no wonder the panic button was pushed.
Lucky they realised early, it was going to be this bad.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (18 April 2020)

basilio said:


> The upside to social distancing measures...
> *Coronavirus isolation measures are reducing all flu-like diseases, not just COVID-19*



my brother's partner works in an age care facility, in the dementia section. The protocols are pretty strenuous, though the PPE situation is not the best. Some might say dire. All the staff report the incidence of flu and sniffles among the old bints is way down


----------



## sptrawler (18 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> my brother's partner works in an age care facility, in the dementia section. The protocols are pretty strenuous, though the PPE situation is not the best. Some might say dire. All the staff report the incidence of flu and sniffles among the old bints is way down



My wife worked in aged care, I asked years ago why not work in mainstream, heaps more money.
She said there is heaps more meetings, heaps more money, but far less satisfaction.
Making someones final time as pleasant as possible, is far more rewarding, I didnt argue just thought I would rather you were a DON in a major hospital.
But you do need people who are devoted to the calling, rather than the dollar.
Lucky for her I was devoted to the dollar, so I could endulge her.
Jeez anonymity is magic.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Potential war so scary..so wish it was just an accidental transmission from a bat in a remote province



That this ends in conflict is my biggest fear regarding the whole thing.

A serious problem with an identified cause which just happens to be a foreign country already perceived as somewhat less than friendly. That's the classic setup for a war and it's falling into place right now.

Note that I'm trying to foresee the future there - I sure as hell don't want a war but I don't think the chance is zero.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (18 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> My wife worked in aged care, I asked years ago why not work in mainstream, heaps more money.
> 
> Making someones final time as pleasant as possible, is far more rewarding, I didnt argue just thought I would rather you were a DON in a major hospital.
> But you do need people who are devoted to the calling..



 ... She calls them her _second family._


----------



## sptrawler (18 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> ... She calls them her _second family._



Yep it is a calĺing IMO, I know I wouldnt have done it.
Funny how some people go to work to make money and others do it to feel they are doing their bit to make the World a better place.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Funny how some people go to work to make money and others do it to feel they are doing their bit to make the World a better place.




You kept the lights on which is rather useful to everyone.


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> You kept the lights on which is rather useful to everyone.



Best job ever, loved it, was like riding a motor bike, just add fuel wait for the pressure a wrap on the go button.
Pure magic, jeez I miss it.
The sadest day of my life, was when I had to leave my job, it was the job I wanted from when I was an apprentice.
When I had to give it up it broke my heart, really, I loved going to work.
Obviously there was a lot more to it, the permits the outages, the stress but that is what makes life exciting IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> You kept the lights on which is rather useful to everyone.



That was the name of the game, first, last everything.
Keep the lights on.


----------



## qldfrog (19 April 2020)

I am not stranger to that myself but are we not straying away from this thread ?


----------



## rederob (19 April 2020)

One of the many false claims that Trump has made relates to "testing," where he claims the USA is leading the world.  While the USA has carried out the most tests, it is not in the top 40 nations in terms of the number carried out as a proportion of the population.  It is good that the USA s ramping up, but the better countries started early and went in hard to get ahead ahead of the curve.
Another claim which was priceless television on Saturday was watching trump explain why China has the most dead from the virus.  That was separate from him wanting to add currency to the conspiracy theories about where and how the virus originated, despite his key advisor Fauci already knocking those ideas on he head.

The saddest part of Trump's mismanagement, however, relates to the clear and present danger of dividing his nation.  It's all good and well to promote civil liberties but, in times of crisis, everyone needs to be on the same page.  We now have this craziness that Pastors are protected by God, young people can't die from it, and that it's just another flu, so "nothing to see here"... let's get back to business. 
New York is an example of how bad things can get, so if the mentality of Trump's supporters rules over reality in coming weeks then the USA will far exceed 100k deaths from COVID-19.  That's a metric unlikely to win him another term, and will be difficult to discount as "fake news."


----------



## qldfrog (19 April 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...y/news-story/34e678ae205b50ea983cc64ab2943608
So was telling same from a french nobel prize and now from this professor, it may start to sink in at least with our decision makers
And if we need to live with it, it means we need to ramp up mask factories here, make it mandatory wearing in public spaces and start relaxing lockdown.


----------



## IFocus (19 April 2020)

rederob said:


> One of the many false claims that Trump has made




I cannot recall any claims Trump has made that are true, I suspect he will possibly get re-elected.


----------



## Knobby22 (19 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...y/news-story/34e678ae205b50ea983cc64ab2943608
> So was telling same from a french nobel prize and now from this professor, it may start to sink in at least with our decision makers
> And if we need to live with it, it means we need to ramp up mask factories here, make it mandatory wearing in public spaces and start relaxing lockdown.



Everyone should take the time to read this.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (19 April 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Everyone should take the time to read this.



Agree


----------



## Dona Ferentes (19 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> I cannot recall any claims Trump has made that are true, I suspect he will possibly get re-elected.



Everything he (this era's Maximinus Thrax) does is about getting reelected.


----------



## bellenuit (19 April 2020)

Biden at last beginning to speak out. But he sounds terrible, slurring his words. I fear he may not have the stamina to go the course with Trump. If he sound like this in a pre-recored interview, he will have difficulty in a live debate. Not that Trump will be any better, but Biden needs to win the debates decisively


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 April 2020)

rederob said:


> New York is an example of how bad things can get, so if the mentality of Trump's supporters rules over reality in coming weeks then the USA will far exceed 100k deaths from COVID-19. That's a metric unlikely to win him another term, and will be difficult to discount as "fake news."



I do think there's a decent chance we're going to see something drastic happen in the US.

Death rate is far higher for closed cases in the US than it is in Australia, the number of cases is out of control and there's a definite "let it rip" mentality.

COVID-19 will almost certainly kill more Americans than the Vietnam war did and it's not out of the question that it will ultimately kill more Americans than WW2. There's no conspiracy theories there, just basic mathematics.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> And if we need to live with it, it means we need to ramp up mask factories here, make it mandatory wearing in public spaces and start relaxing lockdown.



I see the point but the one thing you'll notice about anyone wearing a mask, a proper one that actually protects them and isn't just for show, is that they can't wait to get the damn thing off.

The one sure thing about masks is they make you rather hot especially if you're engaging in any form of physical exertion. Mask + physical work + warm weather = misery. 

I can see some greater enthusiasm for being out and about at night if this becomes the norm.


----------



## rederob (19 April 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I see the point but the one thing you'll notice about anyone wearing a mask, a proper one that actually protects them and isn't just for show, is that they can't wait to get the damn thing off.
> 
> The one sure thing about masks is they make you rather hot especially if you're engaging in any form of physical exertion. Mask + physical work + warm weather = misery.
> 
> I can see some greater enthusiasm for being out and about at night if this becomes the norm.



I was in your camp early on.
Then I discovered that the typical cheap mask was not about preventing others from infecting me.  Instead, it relied on the principal transfer chain being broken.  That is, if I touched a surface with the infection then the mask stopped me from infecting myself because I could not then transfer the virus to my mouth or nose.  Obviously, wearing glasses is the final line of defence.
Unless people are in regular close contact with others who are likely to be infected, N95 style masks are not necessary.
Mask wearing also seems to be increasingly "culturally" acceptable.  I reckon one in 5 at the shops yesterday was wearing a mask, while a couple of weeks ago they were few and far between   Maybe the fact that they were hard to get back then was also at issue.
Froggie and I don't agree with much, but on wearing masks, I am a convert and advocate .
With regard to "social distancing" my personal view is that if you have broken the infection chain by wearing a mask and glasses, and you literally keep your hands infection free after touching any surface, its just a useful layer of protection for people unable to do what I do.
I am now also able to obsess with hand sanitising, having discovered that both Woollies and Coles sell sanitiser at their service desks rather than on shelves!


----------



## basilio (19 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Biden at last beginning to speak out. But he sounds terrible, slurring his words. I fear he may not have the stamina to go the course with Trump. If he sound like this in a pre-recored interview, he will have difficulty in a live debate. Not that Trump will be any better, but Biden needs to win the debates decisively





Slurring his words ? Don't think so. Certainly not as crisp as say Obama but I think that may reflect both his age and poorish quality sound recording.

The message was clear. Pointed out the  pandemic  prepartions that Trump had destroyed. Highlighted the fact that Trump was initially very effusive in his support for Chinas response to the epidemic.

Also highlighted the need for an independent international investigation into the cause of the outbreak when  this is over.

I was a bit surprised he didn't highlight the lack of preparation for the epidemic  by Trump during February.


----------



## qldfrog (19 April 2020)

basilio said:


> I was a bit surprised he didn't highlight the lack of preparation for the epidemic by Trump during February.



Probably because the democrats were among the ones having destroyed the readiness (since the Clinton year, and from both sides, basically as the risk of biowarfare with the USSR disappeared)
And he was with Obama while this was going on, maybe a good warning call for it could be much worse


----------



## bellenuit (19 April 2020)




----------



## basilio (19 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Probably because the democrats were among the ones having destroyed the readiness (since the Clinton year, and from both sides, basically as the risk of biowarfare with the USSR disappeared)




Nuh.  Complete and utter mistruth.
Another Trump BS story.
Trump in fact  undermined the  structures and preparation that Obama had put in place to deal with another epidemic.


----------



## Joules MM1 (19 April 2020)

basilio said:


> Nuh.  Complete and utter mistruth.
> Another Trump BS story.
> Trump in fact  undermined the  structures and preparation that Obama had put in place to deal with another epidemic.



looking for this: (?)
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...-pandemic-response-team-in-2018-idUSKBN21C32M


----------



## Joules MM1 (19 April 2020)

food security


----------



## moXJO (20 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


>




The 40000 people were US Nationals. A lot of holes in that video. Crenshaw cleared a lot of those up on Maher

Starts a little slow but he is a straight shooter and answers questions directly.


----------



## dutchie (20 April 2020)

*China's operation Cover-Up: RICHARD PENDLEBURY and JOHN NASH detail the most shocking part of Beijing's role in the coronavirus crisis - how it hid the truth about the virus... and put the world in peril*

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...JOHN-NASH-Chinas-role-coronavirus-crisis.html

China lied, people died!


----------



## rederob (20 April 2020)

dutchie said:


> *China's operation Cover-Up: RICHARD PENDLEBURY and JOHN NASH detail the most shocking part of Beijing's role in the coronavirus crisis - how it hid the truth about the virus... and put the world in peril*
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...JOHN-NASH-Chinas-role-coronavirus-crisis.html
> 
> China lied, people died!



You are a reprehensible Sinophobe who constantly references crap.
Within 2 days of the Chinese government being advised by the Wuhan Health Commission the WHO was advised.
You have zero medical knowledge and believe journalists who also have no medical knowledge.  At best they could have been advised a week earlier with perfect knowledge and the benefit of hindsight.  But doctors had first to rule out all possible causes including SARS, MERS, and bird flu.  Go and talk to an epidemiologist about how long this takes because you have no idea.


----------



## jbocker (20 April 2020)

Anyone else noticing Singapore case numbers are rocketing up. I thought they were one of the well controlled nations wrt to the virus. Probably I was mistaken? Up 20% today but have held their death numbers down. 2200 cases not that long ago with 8 deaths (49th position in # cases). Now 8000 cases and 11 deaths (32nd position). Population 5.8M.


----------



## macca (20 April 2020)

jbocker said:


> Anyone else noticing Singapore case numbers are rocketing up. I thought they were one of the well controlled nations wrt to the virus. Probably I was mistaken? Up 20% today but have held their death numbers down. 2200 cases not that long ago with 8 deaths (49th position in # cases). Now 8000 cases and 11 deaths (32nd position). Population 5.8M.




I read it is a case of "invisible helpers" like so many Asian countries they import workers from the Phillippines to do the menial jobs.

These workers are on a contract and are housed in dormitories, there can be up to 8 people in a room and they were not checked for CV19, this is where most of the recent cases are coming from (according to the article)

Never been there but it sounds reasonable


----------



## Value Collector (20 April 2020)

basilio said:


> Certainly not as crisp as say Obama




I miss that guy.


----------



## jbocker (21 April 2020)

macca said:


> I read it is a case of "invisible helpers" like so many Asian countries they import workers from the Phillippines to do the menial jobs.
> 
> These workers are on a contract and are housed in dormitories, there can be up to 8 people in a room and they were not checked for CV19, this is where most of the recent cases are coming from (according to the article)
> 
> Never been there but it sounds reasonable



I had not heard of this before. It would seem the 'servants' would have infected their masters and others right in their own workplace (or is it menial home duties they performed which could be worse as this is amongst family homes where you are meant to lock down.)


----------



## jbocker (21 April 2020)

macca said:


> I read it is a case of "invisible helpers" like so many Asian countries they import workers from the Phillippines to do the menial jobs.



Actually I meant to add that the Mrs sacked her little helper too in fear of the Covid being brought into house. I sleep outside now with the dog. Not so bad he don't growl as much.


----------



## macca (21 April 2020)

jbocker said:


> I had not heard of this before. It would seem the 'servants' would have infected their masters and others right in their own workplace (or is it menial home duties they performed which could be worse as this is amongst family homes where you are meant to lock down.)




I found it again, this is the Guardian version

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/20/will-there-be-second-wave-of-coronavirus-


----------



## sptrawler (21 April 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I miss that guy.



Absolutely, the most articulate President, since Morgan Freeman.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (21 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely, the most articulate President, since Morgan Freeman.



What about Bill Pullman, then?
“_We will not go quietly into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We’re going to live on. We’re going to survive._...."


----------



## rederob (21 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> What about Bill Pullman, then?
> “_We will not go quietly into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We’re going to live on. We’re going to survive._...."



Nah, has to be Martin Sheen as Jed Bartlet.


----------



## sptrawler (21 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> What about Bill Pullman, then?
> “_We will not go quietly into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We’re going to live on. We’re going to survive._...."



Yes there has been some really memorable Presidents.
Can't wait to see Gary Busey, in 'The Trump Years'.


----------



## jbocker (21 April 2020)

macca said:


> I found it again, this is the Guardian version
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/20/will-there-be-second-wave-of-coronavirus-



I like the article @macca . Things like Complacency Boredom and Frustration could make us loosen our stance wrt lockdowns. If we don't manage our exits exceptionally well the second wave of infections will undo the good work and flood our poor health workers again. It was interesting to read that history of the big flue outbreaks had multiple waves.
Are we in Australia on our way to potentially proving a best practice, particularly in some states?


----------



## sptrawler (21 April 2020)

Well things must be improving, elective surgery is back on the menu.
Two months ago, it was forecast we would have run out of hospital beds by now, what a great job by all concerned.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...binet-elective-surgery-ivf-to-resume/12168770

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has announced elective surgery restrictions will start to be eased after this weekend.
National Cabinet, which includes Mr Morrison, premiers and chief ministers, has decided to lift the restrictions, imposed last month, following a briefing from health officials.

IVF, joint replacement, cataracts, breast reconstruction and dental procedures are among those that will be able to take place following the Anzac Day long weekend.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (21 April 2020)

Sleepwalking through a Crisis

_The coronavirus didn’t break America. It revealed what was already broken._


https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/06/underlying-conditions/610261/


----------



## sptrawler (21 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Sleepwalking through a Crisis
> 
> _The coronavirus didn’t break America. It revealed what was already broken._
> 
> ...



The thing is it has been broken for a long, long time, America has been about money, money ,money, for living memory.
It takes a crisis like this that money can't fix, to show how little use money is, when what you need to buy isn't in the shops and you don't make it.
You can throw money at movies to make America look great, but it hasn't looked great since the early 1970's.
Since then IMO it has been about the rich getting richer, the manufacturing jobs being offshored and their gig economy getting bigger.
As the guy said, it revealed what was already broken, the U.S always thinks all you need to fix something, is to throw more money at it.

_The smattering of individual results did nothing to protect public health. Meanwhile, ordinary people with fevers and chills had to wait in long and possibly infectious lines, only to be turned away because they weren’t actually suffocating. An internet joke proposed that the only way to find out whether you had the virus was to sneeze in a rich person’s face_.

That will always be the case, if what is required is in short supply, if the manufactured the product in the U.S, it would just be  a case of upping the output.


----------



## qldfrog (21 April 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...d/news-story/c6f38ef43fa64379c240ea2bcfecf2c4
We might have a kinder strain in Australia.would explain a lot


----------



## Logique (22 April 2020)

ABC radio saying two different vaccine human trials in the UK from this week. 

If successful, potential mass production by September


----------



## basilio (22 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.news.com.au/technology/...d/news-story/c6f38ef43fa64379c240ea2bcfecf2c4
> We might have a kinder strain in Australia.would explain a lot




Very significant story on the different strains of COVID 19 mutating around the world.  Makes the question of an effective vaccine even more challenging.
Excellent research by the Chinese incidentally.


----------



## basilio (22 April 2020)

Troubling story on  how New Mexico hospitals were throwing out scads of N95 masks and gloves and safety gear as the COVID virus was unfolding.

How could this happen ? Opens up many questions to address  when this all passes.. 

*New Mexico hospitals junked essential protective gear just as Covid-19 began *
Revealed: facing routine inspection, an Albuquerque hospital disposed of expired or soon-to-expire masks and hand sanitizer, items now badly needed
Nick Pachelli and Ike Swetlitz of Searchlight New Mexico

 In late January and early February, American public health experts warned about a possible Covid-19 epidemic that would almost certainly require a massive supply of hospital masks, gloves and hand sanitizer.

At the same time, at least two major New Mexico hospitals were throwing those very items into the trash.
*https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/21/new-mexico-hospitals-coronavirus-ppe-presbyterian*


----------



## SirRumpole (22 April 2020)

Deaths per million by country.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/


----------



## wayneL (22 April 2020)

I am noticing a huge uptick in traffic in Brisbane in the last few days. Couldn't get a park in the Samford shops as per normal.

In fact the morning peak hour today was almost like normal.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (22 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> I am noticing a huge uptick in traffic in Brisbane in the last few days. Couldn't get a park in the Samford shops as per normal...



The key issue is Physical Separation (aka Social Distancing). It's so easy to slip back to the old ways, and crowds, by definition, make it hard to maintain what has been shown to be the BEST dampener on the spread. But when we get to pinch points - doors, lifts, ingress, egress - then it doesn't work.  And young people are unaware (thoughtless, pig ignorant) to an alarming extent. 

So we get to the same problem of the altruism of the carrot or sting of the stick, again.


----------



## wayneL (22 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> The key issue is Physical Separation (aka Social Distancing). It's so easy to slip back to the old ways, and crowds, by definition, make it hard to maintain what has been shown to be the BEST dampener on the spread. But when we get to pinch points - doors, lifts, ingress, egress - then it doesn't work.  And young people are unaware (thoughtless, pig ignorant) to an alarming extent.
> 
> So we get to the same problem of the altruism of the carrot or sting of the stick, again.



Well, even the most well-intentioned and draconian of distancing procedures in some institutions and businesses create ridiculous pinch points.

I actually lost my shxt at Bundamba Bunnings last week for this very reason. it was not that I was particularly concerned about getting close to people, but the procedures made people feel like lepers on one hand but on the other hand forced people in close proximity at those pinch points.

Total lack of consistency via profound stupidity.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 April 2020)

This is a great story amidst the gloom...

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/17/captain-tom-moore-raises-20000000-nhs-12573366/


----------



## DB008 (22 April 2020)

*First confirmed detection of SARS-CoV-2 in untreated wastewater in Australia: A proof of concept for the wastewater surveillance of COVID-19 in the community*​First confirmed detection of SARS-CoV-2 in untreated wastewater: Study of SARSCoV2 RNA in wastewater treatment plants in Brisbane suggests 0.1% of population in catchment infected during sampling period = 450 COVID19 cases, but potentially up to 764, meaning 7 undetected cases for every 10 detected.​​
*Highlights*
•First study that reports the detection of SARS-CoV-2 in wastewater in Australia.
•The presence of SARS-CoV-2 was confirmed by sequencing.
•A median range of 171 to 1090 infected persons was identified in the catchment.
•Further methodological and molecular assay validation will be required.

*Abstract*
Infection with SARS-CoV-2, the etiologic agent of the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, is accompanied by the shedding of the virus in stool. Therefore, the quantification of SARS-CoV-2 in wastewater affords the ability to monitor the prevalence of infections among the population via wastewater-based epidemiology (WBE). In the current work, SARS-CoV-2 RNA was concentrated from wastewater in a catchment in Australia and viral RNA copies were enumerated using reverse transcriptase quantitative polymerase chain reaction (RT-qPCR) resulting in two positive detections within a six day period from the same wastewater treatment plant (WWTP). The estimated RNA copy numbers observed in the wastewater were then used to estimate the number of infected individuals in the catchment via Monte Carlo simulation. Given the uncertainty and variation in the input parameters, the model estimated a median range of 171 to 1090 infected persons in the catchment, which is in reasonable agreement with clinical observations. This work highlights the viability of WBE for monitoring infectious diseases, such as COVID-19, in communities. The work also draws attention to the need for further methodological and molecular assay validation for enveloped viruses in wastewater.​https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969720322816
​


----------



## DB008 (22 April 2020)

*What are 'COVID toes'? Doctors discover symptom of coronavirus mostly seen in kids*​Doctors identified a new symptom of COVID-19, caused by the novel coronavirus, informally dubbed “COVID toes.” 

The presence of purple or blue lesions on a patient’s feet and toes puzzles infectious disease experts.

“They’re typically painful to touch and could have a hot burning sensation,” said Dr. Ebbing Lautenbach, chief of infectious disease at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Medicine.

What doctors said is most interesting about "COVID toes" is that they  appear in COVID-19 patients who don’t exhibit any other symptoms. Similarly, the loss of taste and smell was found to be associated with COVID-19 among otherwise asymptomatic patients by the American Academy of Otolaryngology – Head and Neck Surgery and ENT UK in late March.

“This is a manifestation that occurs early on in the disease, meaning you have this first, then you progress,” Lautenbach said. “Sometimes this might be your first clue that they have COVID when they don’t have any other symptoms.”

“COVID toes” in some people can disappear in the course of a week to 10 days, but others progress to respiratory symptoms, he said.​

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...may-symptom-covid-19-young-people/2994930001/
​


----------



## bellenuit (23 April 2020)

*With Selective Coronavirus Coverage, China Builds a Culture of Hate*

*https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/business/china-coronavirus-propaganda.html*


----------



## Joules MM1 (23 April 2020)

can we put this under the heading "oh, that's interesting!"
SEOUL (Reuters) - Patients who tested positive for novel coronavirus after recovering from their first bout of the illness appeared to be _*far less infectious the second time*_ round, South Korea’s health authorities said on Wednesday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter


----------



## rederob (23 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *With Selective Coronavirus Coverage, China** Sinophobes Builds a Culture of Hate*



Trump's rhetoric about a China virus has carried through to PM Morrison who now calls for a shake-up of the WHO based on sheer ignorance of its role.  It's classic dog whistling.
The "*W*" in *WHO *stand  for *w*orld and relies on members nations from *within *the United Nations to decide its role rather than sycophants.
Whichever way much of the western world wants to cut it, they failed to take the harsh measures China took wrt to Wuhan and now want to indulge in a blame game so they can hide their failings.


----------



## Humid (23 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Trump's rhetoric about a China virus has carried through to PM Morrison who now calls for a shake-up of the WHO based on sheer ignorance of its role.  It's classic dog whistling.
> The "*W*" in *WHO *stand  for *w*orld and relies on members nations from *within *the United Nations to decide its role rather than sycophants.
> Whichever way much of the western world wants to cut it, they failed to take the harsh measures China took wrt to Wuhan and now want to indulge in a blame game so they can hide their failings.



 Why do you think the Italians copped it so hard so early?


----------



## rederob (23 April 2020)

Humid said:


> Why do you think the Italians copped it so hard so early?



Italy is not much different to many other European nations and it's all relative to the R0 number which is estimated at 2.2 versus the common flu at 1.3.
Even Trump in the early days disregarded how the infection rate worked logarithmically and now the USA leads in numbers infected and dead.
No doubt there will be thousands of studies throwing up all kinds of data, but the early experience is definitive in terms of comorbidities affecting hospitalisation and, ultimately, death rates.


----------



## qldfrog (23 April 2020)

Something no one wants ti hear except smokers, it seems smokers are well underrepresented in people badly affected by the virus
Chinese doctors were troubled by this, French study having the same unexpected conclusion bafling the researchers.
Maybe weak smokers are dead already? 
Anyway another unwanted fact not PC and , as a non smoker, not a good news
Let you google this if interested, the article was in French


----------



## rederob (23 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Something no one wants ti hear except smokers, it seems smokers are well underrepresented in people badly affected by the virus
> Chinese doctors were troubled by this, French study having the same unexpected conclusion bafling the researchers.



According to available research and existing data, that is a false claim.


----------



## hja (23 April 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Something no one wants ti hear except smokers, it seems smokers are well underrepresented in people badly affected by the virus
> Chinese doctors were troubled by this, French study having the same unexpected conclusion bafling the researchers.
> Maybe weak smokers are dead already?
> Anyway another unwanted fact not PC and , as a non smoker, not a good news
> Let you google this if interested, the article was in French



I also heard in the French news of the study that smokers were less affected by coronas virus because of the nicotine in cigarette. So there's a bit of contradiction.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 April 2020)

Results just released regarding the incidence of corona virus amongst the crew of the US aircraft carrier, Theodore Roosevelt, show the extent of the problem. The entire crew of 4,800 was tested and revealed 600 cases with 60% of these entirely asymptomatic. If testing had been confined to symptomatic cases, 360 infected sailors would have been free to infect others. 

If this level of asymptomatic infectiveness is applied to Australia, the actual number of infected people would be at least 2.5 times the reported number. The difficulty in pinning down these numbers is one reason for the lockdown – to prevent the unknown carriers spreading it further.


----------



## bellenuit (23 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Trump's rhetoric about a China virus has carried through to PM Morrison who now calls for a shake-up of the WHO based on sheer ignorance of its role.  It's classic dog whistling.
> The "*W*" in *WHO *stand  for *w*orld and relies on members nations from *within *the United Nations to decide its role rather than sycophants.
> Whichever way much of the western world wants to cut it, they failed to take the harsh measures China took wrt to Wuhan and now want to indulge in a blame game so they can hide their failings.




Dream on CCP troll. Calling out the CCP is not Sinophobia. Yes, of course the rest of the world didn't take China's *harsh* measures. No other country (except for perhaps Iran and a handful of autocratic regimes) imprisoned doctors who tried to alert authorities about the virus or made some others apparently disappear. No other country condemned others from banning travel when they knew the seriousness of the virus and then hid behind the cloak of the statements from their WHO puppets. No other country is preventing independent scrutiny of the origins of the virus. 

Your constant attacking of CCP detractors as Sinophobes shows exactly where you stand. When you now have Left leaning newspapers like this one, the New York Times, and others like the Guardian exposing what Xi and his henchmen are up to and you still come out to defend him.....


----------



## rederob (23 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Dream on CCP troll. Calling out the CCP is not Sinophobia.



It's exactly that and you are mostly factless broken record.
Doctors were not imprisoned as you claim.
Your claim of "condemnation" is ridiculous as Chinese officials said this: " *We urge the Australian side to assess objectively and rationally the prevention and control measures taken by the Chinese side and the actual risk faced by Australian side, respect WHO’s professional recommendations, and lift the restrictions as early as possible."*
The *seriousness *of this disease was not determined to be greater than SARS at that stage, so you are relying on hindsight to inflate you rubbish.
Your claim that China is preventing independent scrutiny is total Bollocks.  China has been working cooperatively with other nations on many issues relating to this virus and many papers are now available.  Most research to date is from Chinese speakers for the obvious reason that most records are in that language.


----------



## bellenuit (23 April 2020)

rederob said:


> It's exactly that and you are mostly factless broken record.
> Doctors were not imprisoned as you claim.
> Your claim of "condemnation" is ridiculous as Chinese officials said this: " *We urge the Australian side to assess objectively and rationally the prevention and control measures taken by the Chinese side and the actual risk faced by Australian side, respect WHO’s professional recommendations, and lift the restrictions as early as possible."*
> The *seriousness *of this disease was not determined to be greater than SARS at that stage, so you are relying on hindsight to inflate you rubbish.
> Your claim that China is preventing independent scrutiny is total Bollocks.  China has been working cooperatively with other nations on many issues relating to this virus and many papers are now available.  Most research to date is from Chinese speakers for the obvious reason that most records are in that language.




Stop regurgitating CCP propaganda. We all know what happened.


----------



## satanoperca (23 April 2020)

rederob said:


> It's exactly that and you are mostly factless broken record.
> Doctors were not imprisoned as you claim.
> Your claim of "condemnation" is ridiculous as Chinese officials said this: " *We urge the Australian side to assess objectively and rationally the prevention and control measures taken by the Chinese side and the actual risk faced by Australian side, respect WHO’s professional recommendations, and lift the restrictions as early as possible."*
> The *seriousness *of this disease was not determined to be greater than SARS at that stage, so you are relying on hindsight to inflate you rubbish.
> Your claim that China is preventing independent scrutiny is total Bollocks.  China has been working cooperatively with other nations on many issues relating to this virus and many papers are now available.  Most research to date is from Chinese speakers for the obvious reason that most records are in that language.




As I assume Redrob cannot read this, as he simply places anyone on ignore that presents a different view on the situation to his understanding, hiding behind a keyboard.

I say to you sir, bull****, the CCP have been quite clear that they will not partake or be involved in an international investigation of the origins of this virus. (Wonder why, they could not have anything to hide)

I somehow feel, Redrob has never spent any time in other countries, but prefers to read his facts, than live them.

Again, Mr Redrob, can you provide any evidence that this came from a wet market?


----------



## rederob (23 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Stop regurgitating CCP propaganda. We all know hat happened.



Sadly, you make up what you want to believe, and most of your claims are demonstrably false.


----------



## satanoperca (23 April 2020)

His reply to Bellenuit, is case in point.


----------



## sptrawler (23 April 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Results just released regarding the incidence of corona virus amongst the crew of the US aircraft carrier, Theodore Roosevelt, show the extent of the problem. The entire crew of 4,800 was tested and revealed 600 cases with 60% of these entirely asymptomatic. If testing had been confined to symptomatic cases, 360 infected sailors would have been free to infect others.
> 
> If this level of asymptomatic infectiveness is applied to Australia, the actual number of infected people would be at least 2.5 times the reported number. The difficulty in pinning down these numbers is one reason for the lockdown – to prevent the unknown carriers spreading it further.



The problem with social distancing and ventilation transmission onboard ships, would appear to be a contributing factor that isn't present on land, that may skew the infection rate somewhat?


----------



## sptrawler (23 April 2020)

Mark McGowan shot down one of the reporters at his press conference today, he was being pressed as to when the rules were going to be relaxed.
He said it was only a couple of weeks ago, I was being shouted at to invoke a complete lockdown, now everyone is asking when am I going to relax the measures we have taken.
He said when we get the go ahead from the medical experts, then we will consider relaxing the rules, not untill.

It is great to see a united front against media pressure IMO.

McGowan also introduced residential rental assistance today.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...ords-rental-relief-package-announced/12176888


----------



## SirRumpole (23 April 2020)

It seems to me that either way; ie whether the virus came out of the wet markets or a lab, China is not going to allow a full investigation into the matter, so the question then is what do other countries do about it ?

Isolate China economically which will hurt us more than it does them, require all people coming from China to quarantine for two weeks,  which will also kill the education and tourism market , throw them out of the WHO or form an equivalent body consisting only of nations who "play the game", or something else ?

It's a pretty sticky situation because there is a massive elephant in the world that doesn't like being told what to do and I don't see it all ending well or soon.


----------



## satanoperca (23 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> It seems to me that either way; ie whether the virus came out of the wet markets or a lab, China is not going to allow a full investigation into the matter, so the question then is what do other countries do about it ?



Countries have the right but not the authority to request action.

Our country would not be in the sh---t, if they controlled the price of one basic need, property, this situation might have been a little easier to deal with.


----------



## bellenuit (23 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Isolate China economically which will hurt us more than it does them, require all people coming from China to quarantine for two weeks,  which will also kill the education and tourism market , throw them out of the WHO or form an equivalent body consisting only of nations who "play the game", or something else ?




Not isolate them, but gradually phase out our dependence on them. Encourage manufacturing at home, even if it costs more and if it costs too much more, perhaps shift some of the business to countries like Vietnam, Thailand and India. That will help them develop and over time maybe, with the help of the West, provide a counterbalance to China.

We should still engage with the Chinese people as much as possible, as it is Xi and the CCP that are at fault. The CCP is only in power without major dissent so long as the economy is running well and the people feel better off. If Xi is seen as a liability, then attitudes might change. Perhaps not the overthrow of the CCP, but maybe a new leader that is more liberal minded like some of the previous.

WHO seems to be fine at ground level, but it is a few at the top that are beholden to the CCP. Maybe force through new rules given the WHO power to investigate in any member country without censorship or repression. If people want the US to keep paying a large portion of the WHO bills (though somewhat delinquent) then they should also have a commensurate vote in the WHO.


----------



## bellenuit (23 April 2020)

satanoperca said:


> I say to you sir, bull****, the CCP have been quite clear that they will not partake or be involved in an international investigation of the origins of this virus.




Yes, this was made clear last week.

Do you think his moniker is significant: *RED*EROB


----------



## SirRumpole (23 April 2020)

bellenuit said:


> If Xi is seen as a liability, then attitudes might change. Perhaps not the overthrow of the CCP, but maybe a new leader that is more liberal minded like some of the previous.




I think it's really the PLA that run the country, the civilians are just there as a "plausible" front. 

I wouldn't bank on more liberality any time soon.


----------



## dutchie (23 April 2020)

China lied, people died.
W.H.O. failed, people died.


----------



## dutchie (23 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Trump's rhetoric about a China virus has carried through to PM Morrison who now calls for a shake-up of the WHO based on sheer ignorance of its role.  It's classic dog whistling.
> The "*W*" in *WHO *stand  for *w*orld and relies on members nations from *within *the United Nations to decide its role rather than sycophants.
> Whichever way much of the western world wants to cut it, they failed to take the harsh measures China took wrt to Wuhan and now want to indulge in a blame game so they can hide their failings.




So what you are saying is that the West is not allowed to hide its failings, but China and WHO are allowed to hide their failings.


----------



## moXJO (23 April 2020)

I think the best solution was to let WHO inspectors  into a country similar to the nuke inspectors. 
Not let countries dictate what info and when they can send people in.


----------



## sptrawler (23 April 2020)

This has been a facts based wake up call, manufacturing was outsourced originally to bring third world countries out of poverty, what China has proved is that it is possible to do this.
What it also shows is that it can happen so quickly, that before you know it they are actually more first world than you and could actually buy you out.
You become more dependent on them than they are on you.
We have very much, within a 50 year timespan had a role reversal.
The problem is the media who are dependent on advertising money, naturally want to support those who pay for the advertising and those who advertise want to support who is making their product.
And as you see on the forum, many believe everything the media says.
The government's know exactly what the problem is and that is why Morrison has asked unions and business to come up with an answer.
To bring manufacturing back will mean a lot of compromise on both parties, profits, conditions, renumeration and dividends will all have to be in play, to achieve an outcome.
Interesting times.
Just my opinion.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 April 2020)

I thought the tracking app was a good idea.

Not any more.

Why not give the contract to an Australian company ?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...services-for-coronavirus-tracing-app/12176682


----------



## jbocker (24 April 2020)

The one number to watch. Growth factor.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...tralia-growth-factor-covid-19/12132478#global


----------



## jbocker (24 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought the tracking app was a good idea.
> 
> Not any more.
> 
> ...



and from that article...
_"The ABC has also confirmed the tender was a limited, invitation-only opportunity initially run by the Department of Home Affairs, which is principally responsible for border protection and national security."_
The result is hardly a Home Affair,   I wonder if many Aus companies were invited.


----------



## satanoperca (24 April 2020)

Dots are getting closer together.

"A leading Russian microbiologist has claimed the coronavirus is the result of Wuhan scientists doing 'absolutely crazy things' in their laboratory.

World renowned expert Professor Petr Chumakov claimed their aim was to study the pathogenicity of the virus and not 'with malicious intent' to deliberately create a manmade killer."

His words are carefully crafted.

This is the reason why the CCP do not want an international investigation into this virus.


----------



## rederob (24 April 2020)

dutchie said:


> So what you are saying is that the West is not allowed to hide its failings, but China and WHO are allowed to hide their failings.



No.
You and others make regular claims they cannot show to be evident.  Relying on gutter journalism to post Sinophobic commentary is not helpful.
Much of SE Asia got their response to this virus close to tight given how much was not known at the time.  Deborah Birx at the President's White House briefing yesterday admitted there were things about this virus which were not understood until late February or March when confronted with a question about "*infection rates*."  
The China blame game is a great distraction, but a lot has come about as a result of the benefit of hindsight and relying on poor journalism.  
As I have said a number of times in relation to human-to-human transmission as an example, it was admitted by the Chinese as "*possible*" prior to the WHO tweet of 14 January that was controversial.  However, it took another week for the Chinese to be near certain it was occurring.  There is also a massive disconnect between what the WHO convey to infectious disease experts and how lay people translate this information.  
Disease experts all knew from the outset that this novel corona virus was SARS-like and therefore had the potential to spread from human to human.  To imagine this knowledge would not be conveyed to decision makers is inconceivable.
Whether or not you like what China did with respect to Wuhan, the fact is that it had never been done before at such scale and as rapidly, *and *it worked.  You should reflect on the lethargy of the USA in respect of the swine flu pandemic if you want to see how poorly things have been done in the past, including how data has been "*manipulated*."
In terms of comparisons, a number of Wuhan's doctors were definitely made to sign "non disclosure agreements" after breaching their obligations in using social media (they were not jailed or killed off).  Trump does not tolerate dissent and removes key players and experts at his whim, as again occurred a few days ago.


----------



## dutchie (24 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought the tracking app was a good idea.
> 
> Not any more.
> 
> ...




And I thought the Government wanted people to download it.
Idiots.


----------



## satanoperca (24 April 2020)

Rederrob (aka CCP), can you provide any evidence that this virus came from bats?

So far, I cannot find any credible evidence, ie 99.5% probability that it jumped from bats to humans without some sort of human intervention.


----------



## IFocus (24 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought the tracking app was a good idea.
> 
> Not any more.
> 
> ...




You would have to be f***ing stupid awarding that contract, most were paranoid beforehand even though it was a game changer for recovery *if* it was taken up, now no hope IMHO*.*


----------



## macca (24 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> You would have to be f***ing stupid awarding that contract, most were paranoid beforehand even though it was a game changer for recovery *if* it was taken up, now no hope IMHO*.*




I will respond to this one but I agree with the others as well.............

F..k.ng unbelievable, how incredibly stupid is this


----------



## bellenuit (25 April 2020)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52420536

*Coronavirus: China rejects call for probe into origins of disease*


----------



## cynic (25 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought the tracking app was a good idea.
> 
> Not any more.
> 
> ...



In a world where the relevant stakeholders can be trusted not to unduly exploit the powers granted them, it may have been a good thing. 

Unfortunately we don't happen to live in such a world.


----------



## cynic (25 April 2020)

IFocus said:


> You would have to be f***ing stupid awarding that contract, most were paranoid beforehand even though it was a game changer for recovery *if* it was taken up, now no hope IMHO*.*



Having at times witnessed the sorts of behaviours that such lucrative government contracts attract, this turn of events comes as no great surprise.

I'd even be willing to go so far as suggesting, that somebody, involved in the tender process, very likely received one, or more, expensive "gift/s" (or perhaps offers of handsomely remunerated future employment).


----------



## DB008 (26 April 2020)

*UK removes China from official coronavirus deaths comparison after ‘cover-up’ claims and disbelief at low figures*​

*The government has removed China from graphs it uses to compare the UK's coronavirus deaths to those elsewhere amid accusations the country has covered up the true impact of the pandemic.   *​

The official toll in China, where the virus first broke out in December, currently stands at 4,632, a fraction of those registered across Europe and the United States.

A graph shown at a Downing Street press briefing on Wednesday compared the death tolls of nine countries - the UK, the US, France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Sweden, South Korea, and China - over time.

On the updated graph shown on Thursday, China had been removed.

China had previously been among those countries - Germany, Sweden, and South Korea - whose death tolls plateaued early on in the outbreak and have remained below 5,000.

Photos have also showed huge stacks of urns being delivered to funeral homes and long queues of people waiting outside to collect their loved ones' remains.

Officials in Wuhan, the epicentre of the original outbreak, last week revised the city's toll up by 1,290 in a single day, bringing the total to 3,869.

The city cited incorrect reporting by overstretched hospitals as the reason for the error.

Some estimates have placed the city's true toll since the start of the pandemic as high as 42,000.

Speaking to Radio Free Asia, a number of Wuhan residents cast doubt on the official toll.

“It can’t be right because the incinerators have been working round the clock, so how can so few people have died?” one said.​

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11481397/uk-removes-china-official-coronavirus-deaths-cover-up/​


----------



## rederob (26 April 2020)

DB008 said:


> *UK removes China from official coronavirus deaths comparison after ‘cover-up’ claims and disbelief at low figures*​
> 
> *The government has removed China from graphs it uses to compare the UK's coronavirus deaths to those elsewhere amid accusations the country has covered up the true impact of the pandemic.   *​
> 
> ...



Sinophobia is rife here.
Maybe they should also remove Australia and Germany from their graphs, because their rates are even lower than China's.  Many other countries would also meet the criteria, but let's not mention them either!


----------



## dutchie (26 April 2020)

*China tried to patent potential coronavirus drug Remsvidir the DAY AFTER Beijing confirmed virus was transmissable between humans*

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...filed-patent-drug-helps-patients-recover.html


----------



## rederob (26 April 2020)

dutchie said:


> *China tried to patent potential coronavirus drug Remsvidir the DAY AFTER Beijing confirmed virus was transmissable between humans*
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...filed-patent-drug-helps-patients-recover.html



Gilead was granted the patent in May 2016 - over 4 years ago!
And it was BrightGene who claimed that they had improved the drug and wanted to produce it, not the Virology lab.
You need to check that your sources know what they are writing about.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (26 April 2020)

Interesting read



> ...what can we learn from the outbreaks of the past? What clues do they leave us about how COVID-19 will end? And is humanity really getting better at handling infectious disease?





http://www.smh.com.au/national/spec...es-this-one-compare-20200415-p54k31.html?btis



> *How did past pandemics end?*
> Most diseases, once loose, tend to linger in some form in humans. But there are two main ways a pandemic wave comes to an end, says Nobel Prize-winning immunologist Professor Peter Doherty. The old road of early history saw infections burn out once enough people had either died or recovered with natural immunity then encoded into their cells. The other way is intervention – quarantine and, today, medicine.



_Of course, there is the more terrifying prospect that a vaccine doesn’t work or the pathogen mutates to evade our immunity, evolving and lingering like seasonal flu, Doherty admits. Most researchers, Doherty among them, think it very unlikely the virus will morph into something nastier – by its very nature, a virus wants to spread rather than kill and coronaviruses are much more stable than the wildly unpredictable genetic code of influenza. Usually, a virus will beef up its potency to jump across species lines – say, from civet to human. Over time circulating in a new population they tend to lose more of their bite – as has already happened with the four most common coronaviruses. Today they give humans only mild colds and coughs.

But, as Doherty suggests, "When they first jumped [from animals] into people they probably hit us just as hard as this."_


----------



## sptrawler (26 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I thought the tracking app was a good idea.
> 
> Not any more.
> 
> ...



Isn't it weird how everything is going along fine, smooth as butter, then some dick does something like this.
I mean do they think it is smart? Is it the cheapest tender? What comes into their heads?
It isn't as though they haven't thrown the kitchen sink at the virus, now they want to save $20 on cloud storage, weird.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Isn't it weird how everything is going along fine, smooth as butter, then some dick does something like this.
> I mean do they think it is smart? Is it the cheapest tender? What comes into their heads?
> It isn't as though they haven't thrown the kitchen sink at the virus, now they want to save $20 on cloud storage, weird.




I think the answer has already been said.

Greasing of palms ?


----------



## qldfrog (26 April 2020)

Qld will see relaxation of lockdown distanciation rules on Friday it seems.
Not sure regulation is not just following usage
I live near a popular swimming hole, which now displays a proeminent closed sign in big red letters
Yesterday afternoon at 4pm, well past peak useage time, there were still 27 cars parked bumper to bumper along the road near the hole.
Acces paths are narrow and there is mostly one attraction so people are not spread in the mountains
In many way, it seems we are self inflicting ourselves a punition where thé guilty still goes scotch free while the innocent will be sentenced to death.
I am not going to discuss the regulation/laws needs or not, but fact is many here do not give a hoot
Have we just been lucky?


----------



## noirua (27 April 2020)

*Wuhan hospitals clear all COVID-19 cases*
26 April 2020
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-04/26/c_139009753.htm


----------



## noirua (27 April 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Dots are getting closer together.
> 
> "A leading Russian microbiologist has claimed the coronavirus is the result of Wuhan scientists doing 'absolutely crazy things' in their laboratory.
> 
> ...



*China's new draft law revision proposes strengthening medical waste management*
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-04/26/c_139009810.htm
BEIJING, April 26 (Xinhua) -- A new draft law revision under Chinese lawmakers' consideration has proposed strengthening the management of medical waste, especially medical waste management work in handling major infectious disease epidemics.


----------



## sptrawler (27 April 2020)

noirua said:


> *China's new draft law revision proposes strengthening medical waste management*
> http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-04/26/c_139009810.htm
> BEIJING, April 26 (Xinhua) -- A new draft law revision under Chinese lawmakers' consideration has proposed strengthening the management of medical waste, especially medical waste management work in handling major infectious disease epidemics.



What a classic.
You must not bypass the incinerator with anything, dead or alive.


----------



## basilio (28 April 2020)

Nice story on how virologists  identified and photographed the COVID 19 virus.

*Fighting the invisible enemy*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-28/putting-the-coronavirus-under-the-microscope/12158048?nw=0


----------



## dutchie (28 April 2020)

*China's man in Canberra has unmasked the regime's true face*

Ambassador Cheng Jingye has done Australia a great service. He has taken off the mask.

China's ambassador has shown us the true face of the Chinese government's feeling for Australia.

The Chinese Communist Party for years has been working systematically to undermine Australia's sovereignty. To "take over" our political system, in the words of Australia's former national security adviser and ASIO chief, Duncan Lewis.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/chi...d-the-regime-s-true-face-20200427-p54nhj.html


----------



## rederob (28 April 2020)

dutchie said:


> *China's man in Canberra has unmasked the regime's true face*
> 
> Ambassador Cheng Jingye has done Australia a great service. He has taken off the mask.
> 
> ...



Sean Hannity could have scripted Harcher’s rant.
Opinions of Sinophobes are likened exactly to Joe McCarthy’s deeds.
At least you are giving Muslims a break from your bigotry.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 April 2020)

rederob said:


> Sean Hannity could have scripted Harcher’s rant.
> Opinions of Sinophobes are likened exactly to Joe McCarthy’s deeds.
> At least you are giving Muslims a break from your bigotry.




So it's Sino-phobia to want to know the cause of the biggest non-conflict social, medical and economic upheaval in 100 years ?

What rubbish Rob.

It's obvious China has something to hide and are acting like gangsters as Hartcher said, otherwise they would cooperate with an open enquiry.

Other nations are now busy dealing with all the sick and dead, but once the pandemic is over there will be widespread resentment at not only the pandemic itself but China's actions in trying to cover up the truth.


----------



## joeno (29 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So it's Sino-phobia to want to know the cause of the biggest non-conflict social, medical and economic upheaval in 100 years ?
> 
> What rubbish Rob.
> 
> ...




Cover up what truth? You mean the US covering up "mysterious sicknesses" in Hawaii back in November/December 2019 before departing to Wuhan for the military games. That til this very day they are covering up how many people are infected in Hawaii?

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2020...y-wont-say-how-many-covid-19-cases-in-hawaii/

Do you really think by repeating a tired phrase you sound compelling each time you say it.

I have one simple question... if we hold China responsible for this coronavirus, can we also hold US responsible for the economic fallout the GFC had on the world in 2009? I'm waiting to hear you perform some mental gymnastics on this one.

Will accept whatever bull**** conspiracy theories you have.


----------



## rederob (29 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So it's Sino-phobia to want to know the cause of the biggest non-conflict social, medical and economic upheaval in 100 years ?



It was a novel coronavirus of zoonotic nature, and it has no boundaries.


SirRumpole said:


> What rubbish Rob.



You are god at saying that, yet never can show it.


SirRumpole said:


> It's obvious China has something to hide and are acting like gangsters as Hartcher said, otherwise they would cooperate with an open enquiry.



Neither you nor anyone else has or can show it is "*obvious"* and that is why this is a classic case of Sinophobia.  It's exactly how McCarthyism prospered - misinformation, blame and fear.


SirRumpole said:


> Other nations are now busy dealing with all the sick and dead, but once the pandemic is over there will be widespread resentment at not only the pandemic itself but China's actions in trying to cover up the truth.



Yet these actions were never previously taken when pandemics occurred, were they!  What makes this different is Sinophobia, pure and simple.

The lack of logic shown by Sinophobes is breathtaking.
An investigation has and will still discover ... a *virus*!
Already hundreds  of scientific papers - at my last count it was over 400 - examine it's origins and spread.  True, most are written in Chinese because a province of almost 60 million people was in lockdown for 3 months.  Despite this, conspiracy theories in Western media gather traction every day.
The WHO has no evidence of lies or a coverup, nor of obstruction, from China.  However, to give credence to Sinophobes, the WHO is now part of the problem.
Really!

In the Folau thread I asked you time and again to offer evidence, and you came back with opinion after opinion.  I suspect you will do that here.  You will probably say you can't get evidence because of Catch 22.  What you are really saying is that you do not trust the thousands of pages of data and science already available and continuing to be written because it always come from a Chinese base.
If this was MERS (35% fatality rate) you could probably blame the Muslims, but after 8 years be none the wiser as to clear origin.
And if it was the swine flu then you would need to blame the Mexicans (who actually acted decisively to contain it - ring any bells?).


----------



## SirRumpole (29 April 2020)

Cut the crap rob.

Just hold an independent enquiry and find the TRUTH.

That's all.


----------



## rederob (29 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Cut the crap rob.
> 
> Just hold an independent enquiry and find the TRUTH.
> 
> That's all.



That was done by the WHO, and a lot more is continuing to be done.
How about explaining what was "*obvious*" to you as, if it were so, then the truth must already be known.


----------



## moXJO (29 April 2020)

rederob said:


> That was done by the WHO, and a lot more is continuing to be done.
> How about explaining what was "*obvious*" to you as, if it were so, then the truth must already be known.



What a lot of crap.


----------



## moXJO (29 April 2020)

rederob said:


> That was done by the WHO, and a lot more is continuing to be done.
> How about explaining what was "*obvious*" to you as, if it were so, then the truth must already be known.



Models from numerous locations show the death rate was higher.
First recorded human to human transmission week or more before they let on.
Doctors were silenced.
Data scrubbed.
Refusal to let anyone near the site of infection at the crucial time.
WHO relied on bogus data.
WHO did not get on the ground till weeks after


----------



## Humid (29 April 2020)

rederob said:


> It was a novel coronavirus of zoonotic nature, and it has no boundaries.
> You are god at saying that, yet never can show it.
> Neither you nor anyone else has or can show it is "*obvious"* and that is why this is a classic case of Sinophobia.  It's exactly how McCarthyism prospered - misinformation, blame and fear.
> Yet these actions were never previously taken when pandemics occurred, were they!  What makes this different is Sinophobia, pure and simple.
> ...




Your link on the swine flu in Mexico shows Mt Sinai research will they be given the same access to China?


----------



## sptrawler (29 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Cut the crap rob.
> 
> Just hold an independent enquiry and find the TRUTH.
> 
> That's all.



There is one thing for sure, if the facts were clear, no one would be calling for in investigation.
It is certainly causing enough of a financial impact, to demand some sort of definitive answer, we really don't want this happening every couple of years if we can avoid it.


----------



## rederob (29 April 2020)

Humid said:


> Your link on the swine flu in Mexico shows Mt Sinai research will they be given the same access to China?



Pigs do not fly!
And that's a serious response to your question as the available evidence links genetically to bats.  There are dozens of papers that address this, so Mt Sinai might not be interested.
That said, the real issue relates to pinpointing the intermediate host.  Should there be a second wave, that source may be easier to find.


----------



## rederob (29 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> There is one thing for sure, if the facts were clear, no one would be calling for in investigation.



No logic to that comment.
The WHO have detailed the medical history, and there are now hundreds of papers addressing virology.
Those calling for an investigation want to apportion *blame*.
If there are serious about an investigation over and above what is now known, there is an international process which nations can follow.  The USA and others were given short shrift from most European nations when they floated the idea.


sptrawler said:


> It is certainly causing enough of a financial impact, to demand some sort of definitive answer, we really don't want this happening every couple of years if we can avoid it.



Its a coronavirus. 
All viruses mutate.
All living creatures mutate.
Mutation is an evolutionary principle.
What exactly do you want an answer to?


----------



## wayneL (29 April 2020)

I have to admire the China shill's ability to argue bullsh£t. It's totally transparent, intellectually and ideologically corrupt, not to mention totally offensive to Western liberal ideals, but A for effort... and treason.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 April 2020)

rederob said:


> What exactly do you want an answer to?




Whether the wet markets were involved and are they a danger to world health.

If they are then China needs to get rid of them and provide decent food for it's people. (Like Aussie beef and grain).


----------



## wayneL (29 April 2020)

FWIW


----------



## dutchie (29 April 2020)

wayneL said:


> FWIW





OMG Wayne , even the French have Sinophobia.

Quick where is the Chinaman?


----------



## rederob (29 April 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Whether the wet markets were involved and are they a danger to world health.
> 
> If they are then China needs to get rid of them and provide decent food for it's people. (Like Aussie beef and grain).



The wet markets in Wuhan are still closed.
Most virologists have discounted the wet markets as a source.


----------



## satanoperca (29 April 2020)

The dots are moving closer and closer together.

Great video WayneL. Simple and clear, this is not all natural. 

So if China has nothing to hide, then why are they refusing an international investigation?

More so, why are they becoming so agitated and lashes out at our pollies, even threatening trade with Australia?


----------



## Logique (30 April 2020)

Relax people, Saint Greta is now on the Covid case. I was wondering how long it would take her/them.

*Greta Thunberg launches campaign to fight coronavirus*
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/29/greta-thunberg-launches-campaign-fight-coronavirus/   By: Associated Press - Wednesday, April 29, 2020

_"UNITED NATIONS - Climate activist Greta Thunberg is launching a campaign with a Danish foundation to help finance the U.N. childrens’ agency’s emergency program to fight the coronavirus pandemic.  Thunberg said in a statement that “like the climate crisis, *the coronavirus pandemic is a child-rights crisis*” that will affect youngsters now and in the long-term..."_


----------



## dutchie (30 April 2020)

Logique said:


> Relax people, Saint Greta is now on the Covid case. I was wondering how long it would take her/them.
> 
> *Greta Thunberg launches campaign to fight coronavirus*
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/29/greta-thunberg-launches-campaign-fight-coronavirus/   By: Associated Press - Wednesday, April 29, 2020
> ...




Praise the Lord!


----------



## Dona Ferentes (30 April 2020)

Logique said:


> Relax people, Saint Greta is now on the Covid case. I was wondering how long it would take her/the_*m*."UNITED NATIONS - Climate activist Greta Thunberg is launching a campaign with a Danish foundation to help finance the U.N. childrens’ agency’s emergency program to fight the coronavirus pandemic.  Thunberg said in a statement that “like the climate crisis, *the coronavirus pandemic is a child-rights crisis*” that will affect youngsters now and in the long-term..."_



she is a child, after all


----------



## basilio (30 April 2020)

It's becoming clear that the real death rate caused by the COVID virus is far higher that the current  official figures. This analysis explains how the difference is estimated.

*Coronavirus deaths could be much higher than official toll due to number of 'excess deaths'*

England and Wales have hit a grim milestone, providing more evidence that the true devastation from the coronavirus pandemic is far higher than the official statistics suggest.

The countries have now recorded the most deaths in a single week for at least 27 years, when official weekly statistics began.
There were 22,351 deaths in the week ending April 17.
If this were a normal year, you would expect only around 10,000 people to have died in that week.
The number of 'excess deaths' above what you'd expect to see in a typical year is growing fast in England and Wales, and it's a better way of measuring the true impact of the pandemic.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...s-likely-higher-due-to-excess-deaths/12200850


----------



## Tink (30 April 2020)

The Lord's Prayer is said in Parliament every day.

Acknowledgement of country and prayer

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parlia...apter8/Acknowledgement_of_country_and_Prayers


----------



## satanoperca (30 April 2020)

Tink said:


> The Lord's Prayer is said in Parliament every day.
> 
> Acknowledgement of country and prayer
> 
> https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parlia...apter8/Acknowledgement_of_country_and_Prayers




So your lord has allowed hundred of thousands of people to die.

He/She is just someone we should pray to in the time of a crisis.

Keep believing.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 April 2020)

satanoperca said:


> So your lord has allowed hundred of thousands of people to die.
> 
> He/She is just someone we should pray to in the time of a crisis.
> 
> Keep believing.




Hey, don't knock him, he ended the drought.


----------



## Tink (30 April 2020)

satanoperca,

If you noticed on the site, we also have the Magna Carta.
https://www.aph.gov.au/Visit_Parliament/Whats_On/Exhibition/Magna_Carta

What is the Magna Carta?

The Magna Carta lies at the heart of Australian parliamentary democracy. Parliament House has a 1297 edition of the Magna Carta—one of only four in existence, and the only one in the Southern Hemisphere.

The Magna Carta (Latin for the ‘Great Charter’) is famous around the world as the foundation stone of constitutional and parliamentary government.

It confirmed the rule of law—the principle that nobody, not even the monarch, is above the law—and, among other freedoms, laid the basis for establishing trial by jury, outlawing arbitrary detention, and ensuring that there should be no taxation without representation.


----------



## basilio (1 May 2020)

As usual always hits the mark. Bit of a big picture view in this Ad.


----------



## basilio (1 May 2020)

Another graph on the COVID virus but with a difference.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 May 2020)

basilio said:


> Another graph on the COVID virus but with a difference.
> 
> 
> View attachment 103121





Cases per head of population would be more informative, if you can believe the numbers anyway.

In countries where people die in the streets and get buried/burned ASAP , they never get counted in the stats.


----------



## Humid (1 May 2020)

Tink said:


> satanoperca,
> 
> If you noticed on the site, we also have the Magna Carta.
> https://www.aph.gov.au/Visit_Parliament/Whats_On/Exhibition/Magna_Carta
> ...




Parliament what Parliament.....Scummos running solo
And loving it


----------



## SirRumpole (1 May 2020)

Funny how the Greens have been totally invisible during this period.

Who is their leader again ?

Oh yes, that Bandt chappie, haven't heard a word from him.


----------



## basilio (2 May 2020)

Making clever propaganda and demonstrating how Trump talks rubbish.

*Chinese state media releases animated propaganda video mocking US coronavirus response*
A Chinese state media outlet has released an animated video using Lego pieces to mock the United States' coronavirus response and the Trump Administration's claims of an initial Chinese COVID-19 coverup.

*Key points:*





Personified Lego characters representing the US and China satirised the Trump Administration

The videos appear to be part of China's retort to claims over its coronavirus mismanagement

Donald Trump has continued to repeat an unverified claim about the virus's origin

Entitled Once Upon a Virus, the short animation — released by China's official Xinhua news agency — takes the form of a back-and-forth between China and the US with China being represented by a Lego terracotta warrior and a team of hazmat wearing characters, and the US by the Statue of Liberty.

The dialogue begins with the Chinese warrior who stated they had discovered a dangerous new virus, to which the Statue of Liberty replied:

"It's only a flu ... Don't wear a mask", adding that China's "stay at home" measures were a violation of human rights.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...propaganda-video-mock-us-coronavirus/12204836


----------



## basilio (2 May 2020)

*Observations from CDC in US about the response to the Corona Virus*

_The U.S. government was slow to understand how much coronavirus was spreading from Europe, which helped drive the acceleration of outbreaks across the nation, a top health official has said.

Limited testing and delayed travel alerts for areas outside China contributed to the jump in U.S. cases starting in late February, said Dr. Anne Schuchat, the No. 2 official at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“We clearly didn’t recognise the full importations that were happening,” Schuchat told The Associated Press.

In an article published by the CDC looking back on the US response, Schuchat suggested the nation’s top public health agency missed opportunities to slow the spread. 

The CDC is responsible for the recognition, tracking and prevention of just such a disease. But the agency has had a low profile during this pandemic, with White House officials controlling communications and leading most press briefings.

“This report seems to challenge the idea that the China travel ban in late January was instrumental in changing the trajectory of this pandemic in the United States,” said Jason Schwartz, assistant professor of health policy at the Yale School of Public Health.

President Donald Trump has repeatedly celebrated a federal decision, announced on 31 January, to stop entry into the US of any foreign nationals who had traveled to China in the previous 14 days. That took effect on 2 February. 

China had imposed its own travel restrictions earlier, and travel out of its outbreak areas did indeed drop dramatically.

But in her article, Schuchat noted that nearly 2 million travellers arrived in the US from Italy and other European countries during February. The US government didn’t block travel from there until 11 March.

“The extensive travel from Europe, once Europe was having outbreaks, really accelerated our importations and the rapid spread,” she told the AP. “I think the timing of our travel alerts should have been earlier.”

She also noted in the article that more than 100 people who had been on nine separate Nile River cruises during February and early March had come to the U.S. and tested positive for the virus, nearly doubling the number of known U.S. cases at that time.

Schuchat also noted the explosive effect of some late February mass gatherings, including a scientific meeting in Boston, the Mardis Gras celebration in New Orleans and a funeral in Albany, Georgia. The gatherings spawned many cases, and led to decisions in mid-March to restrict crowds.

 “I think in retrospect, taking action earlier could have delayed further amplification (of the US outbreak), or delayed the speed of it.”_
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...-fauci-blocked-from-testifying-on-us-response
https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...f60286-8bfe-11ea-80df-d24b35a568ae_story.html


----------



## macca (2 May 2020)

macca said:


> As I have posted previously, China shipped 50 tons of Vitamin C to Wuhan not long after the virus escaped.
> 
> * Story at-a-glance *
> 
> ...




Seems this may get a public run after all, it has been known but shut down for years.

Interesting comment that people with good Vit D do 50% better against all upper respiratory infections, this was proven in the USA to include the flu but the CDC won't have it. 

They would rather give everyone a flu jab with an average success rate of between 10% and 30% than suggest they take a Vit D supplement from autumn to spring and get a 50% success rate.............. I wonder why ?

*Experts claim those with low vitamin D levels*
A new study has found having low levels of a particular vitamin could make people more likely to die from coronavirus. The kicker is: lockdown isn’t helping.

https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...s/news-story/8207fd86200fd4902b25d47990464f6a


----------



## DB008 (3 May 2020)

Who here is surprised?


*China deliberately destroyed evidence about start of coronavirus, report says*
​A research assessment said to be compiled by the ‘Five Eyes’ intelligence alliance of Western states has stated that the Chinese government had deliberately hidden or destroyed evidence about the start of coronavirus in the country.

The document charts how Beijing had initially denied that the disease could be transmitted between humans, silenced or ‘disappeared’ medics who tried to warn of the outbreak, blocked access to international organisations from Wuhan where it originated, and refused to provide live samples to scientists abroad trying to find a vaccine.

The ‘Five Eyes’ intelligence network of the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand has been sharing information on Covid-19​
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ina-research-evidence-destroyed-a9495856.html​
'Silenced or disappeared medics' is an interesting way to say kidnapped and/or murdered whistleblowers.

Is the propergandist pro Chinese user RedRob still participating in this thread? Just a friendly user tip - click on the user name and block them. Easy done.


----------



## qldfrog (3 May 2020)

DB008 said:


> Is the propergandist pro Chinese user RedRob still participating in this thread?



I would rephrase as "pro Chinese Communist Party" a supple but key difference for my Chinese friends..
But i agree with the final recommendation


----------



## rederob (3 May 2020)

macca said:


> Seems this may get a public run after all, it has been known but shut down for years.
> 
> Interesting comment that people with good Vit D do 50% better against all upper respiratory infections, this was proven in the USA to include the flu but the CDC won't have it.
> 
> ...



Why do you choose advertising sites rather than peer reviewed material?


----------



## rederob (3 May 2020)

DB008 said:


> Who here is surprised?
> 
> 
> *China deliberately destroyed evidence about start of coronavirus, report says*
> ...



Too funny.
Sinophobia is alive and well here.
Your reference material is a crock of cobblers.
I ask that those who slight China and the WHO offer actual evidence.
Instead we get a constant steam of conspiracy theorist nonsense and sensationalising rubbish from disinformation peddlers.
It is true that some Wuhan doctors were required to sign our equivalent of non-disclosure agreements so as not to cause fear and panic in the community, but they did actually break Chinese laws relating to their access to information and using social media to spread it.  None in Wuhan were jailed, kidnapped or murdered!
Aside from that, similar articles to the one linked above, which are doing the rounds of global right wind media organisations, are mostly factually baseless.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 May 2020)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/06/world/asia/chinese-doctor-Li-Wenliang-coronavirus.html


----------



## bellenuit (3 May 2020)

Rather than pursuing China to allow investigation of the source, an investigation which becomes harder and harder to do as time goes by, it would be better to revamp the constitution of WHO. China is not going to allow outside investigation under any circumstances, so that is a waste of time. 

WHO should have an international team within it whose task is to investigate new outbreaks as soon as they happen and it should be mandatory for WHO members to facilitate the work of that task force. Refusing to do so should mean automatic expulsion from WHO. That won't ensure China would allow such investigations in the future, but it would mean expulsion not to do so and would also mean that the world would not be reliant on just a few countries to pursue investigation as is the present case with all the risks associated with intimidation due to their bully boy tactics.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Rather than pursuing China to allow investigation of the source, an investigation which becomes harder and harder to do as time goes by, it would be better to revamp the constitution of WHO. China is not going to allow outside investigation under any circumstances, so that is a waste of time.
> 
> WHO should have an international team within it whose task is to investigate new outbreaks as soon as they happen and it should be mandatory for WHO members to facilitate the work of that task force. Refusing to do so should mean automatic expulsion from WHO. That won't ensure China would allow such investigations in the future, but it would mean expulsion not to do so and would also mean that the world would not be reliant on just a few countries to pursue investigation as is the present case with all the risks associated with intimidation due to their bully boy tactics.




Or just form another health organisation of countries that are willing to comply and cut off funding to WHO.


----------



## rederob (3 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/06/world/asia/chinese-doctor-Li-Wenliang-coronavirus.html



It was a tragedy he died, but he was not the only doctor, and at the time of Li's death some 1716 health workers in China had contracted COVID-19, of which 6 had died.
However, had the *NY Times* done a better job they would have been aware he raised his views in a medical record as early as 25 December, and on 29 December the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission ran a conference on what was then known as a *novel *coronavirus.  Li was certainly reprimanded over his private warning to doctors on his Wechat group on 30 December, but at this point in time there was no secret about the virus.  The WHO was advised on 31 December,  and the Health Commission simultaneously posted information on their website:  several media organisations reported it.  
This seems to be a case of hiding a novel coronavirus in plain sight!


----------



## rederob (3 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> China is not going to allow outside investigation under any circumstances, so that is a waste of time.



That's simply untrue.
An international team visited China in February:
_"The Joint Mission consisted of 25 national and international experts from China, Germany, Japan, Korea, Nigeria, Russia, Singapore, the United States of America and the World Health Organization (WHO). The Joint Mission was headed by Dr Bruce Aylward of WHO and Dr Wannian Liang of the People’s Republic of China. The full list of members and their affiliations is available in Annex A. The Joint Mission was implemented over a 9-day period from 16-24 February 2020. The schedule of work is available in Annex B. The Joint Mission began with a detailed workshop with representatives of all of the principal ministries that are leading and/or contributing to the response in China through the National Prevention and Control Task Force. A series of in-depth meetings were then conducted with national level institutions responsible for the management, implementation and evaluation of the response, particularly the National Health Commission and the China Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (China CDC). To gain first-hand knowledge on the field level implementation and impact of the national and local response strategy, under a range of epidemiologic and provincial contexts, visits were conducted to Beijing Municipality and the provinces of Sichuan (Chengdu), Guangdong (Guangzhou, Shenzhen) and Hubei (Wuhan). The field visits included community centers and health clinics, country/district hospitals, COVID-19 designated hospitals, transportations hubs (air, rail, road), a wet market, pharmaceutical and personal protective equipment (PPE) stocks warehouses, research institutions, provincial health commissions, and local Centers for 1 In the Chinese version of this report, COVID-19 is referred to throughout as novel coronavirus pneumonia or NCP, the term by which COVID-19 is most widely known in the People’s Republic of China. 4 Disease Control (provincial and prefecture)."
_​Over the past week I have watched a number of politicians being asked about what exactly would be investigated, and none had an answer, other than "we should investigate these matters!" Most nations of the world have a voice at the United Nations and they can canvass their concerns about what they want investigated at that forum. 
Given that the WHO has been able to achieve considerable cooperation with China already in reviewing COVID-19 impacts etc., it would seem a smarter option to work through them than indulge in a persistent blame game.

_


bellenuit said:



			WHO should have an international team within it whose task is to investigate new outbreaks as soon as they happen and it should be mandatory for WHO members to facilitate the work of that task force.
		
Click to expand...


_The WHO did what they have done many times in response to disease outbreaks, and it's done on a cooperative basis rather than one where they say who does what.  The only reason this outbreak is controversial is due to sheer ignorance of the facts.
​


----------



## moXJO (3 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Too funny.
> Sinophobia is alive and well here.
> Your reference material is a crock of cobblers.
> I ask that those who slight China and the WHO offer actual evidence.
> ...



Your post is utter rubbish. I notice you slide more and more with each story towards total propaganda.

Why are they censoring WeChat and YY?


Now you are denying doctors didn't get silenced with the latest propaganda straight from the CCP.

How about Chen Qiushi?


----------



## basilio (4 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Rather than pursuing China to allow investigation of the source, an investigation which becomes harder and harder to do as time goes by, it would be better to revamp the constitution of WHO. China is not going to allow outside investigation under any circumstances, so that is a waste of time.
> 
> WHO should have an international team within it whose task is to investigate new outbreaks as soon as they happen and it should be mandatory for WHO members to facilitate the work of that task force. Refusing to do so should mean automatic expulsion from WHO. That won't ensure China would allow such investigations in the future, but it would mean expulsion not to do so and would also mean that the world would not be reliant on just a few countries to pursue investigation as is the present case with all the risks associated with intimidation due to their bully boy tactics.




That is an interesting proposition bellenuit.  I suggest the problem is that WHO is  an international organisation  which has no independent funding and relies on the support of all countries.
Countries aren't forced to belong. WHO works *with c*ountries to help identify health problems and *offer support* to deal with them.

How can one make it mandatory to facilitate the work of a task force ?  Who enforces such a  directive ? Which US administration for example, present or past would allow an international body to just decide it was going to come into a country to investigate a  serious health threat? WHO is always been an orgnisation that relied on diplomacy and being "nice" to gain effective access to countries which had serious health issues.  Blind Freddy would realise that no government wants to be shown up with a serious health issue.  Politically far better t stay mum and bury the bodies if  you can get away with it..


----------



## spooly74 (4 May 2020)

*As We Mull Leaving Lockdown, Is Sweden Model the Way Forward?*

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...n_is_sweden_model_the_way_forward_143093.html



> Sooner or later the lockdowns must end, as people become more afraid of losing their livelihood than losing their life, or as other overlooked mental and physical costs pile up to the breaking point. In the absence of effective and widespread vaccination, the viral spread can be slowed but not stopped. Singapore, for example, initially did well at containment, but now new cases are appearing. It is possible that Sweden's larger initial wave of infection pulled forward infections that other countries are likely to encounter in subsequent waves as those nations’ lockdowns are inevitably relaxed. Indeed, Dr. Michael Ryan, executive director of the health emergencies program of the World Health Organization, suggested that perhaps Sweden “represents a future model” of what a post-lockdown society might look like.


----------



## moXJO (4 May 2020)

spooly74 said:


> *As We Mull Leaving Lockdown, Is Sweden Model the Way Forward?*
> 
> https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...n_is_sweden_model_the_way_forward_143093.html



I suppose it depends on how much this virus weakens the lungs and body. Hearing a lot of blood clots and damaged lungs as a result. 

The longer we can get data the better. At the same time the economy is an important factor as is mental health.


----------



## sptrawler (4 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> I suppose it depends on how much this virus weakens the lungs and body. Hearing a lot of blood clots and damaged lungs as a result.
> 
> The longer we can get data the better. At the same time the economy is an important factor as is mental health.



That is the crux of it moxjo, we don't know yet if there is a long term effect, we don't even know if you can actually fully recover from it as there has been re infections.
At this point in time IMO the best outcome is not to get it, until as you say we know more about it, herd immunity is good until you find that there are long term consequences from having contracted it.
just my opinion.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> I suppose it depends on how much this virus weakens the lungs and body. Hearing a lot of blood clots and damaged lungs as a result.
> 
> The longer we can get data the better. At the same time the economy is an important factor as is mental health.




Just saw a report (UK) that about 16% of people in intensive care suffer kidney failure due to blood clotting.


----------



## spooly74 (4 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> I suppose it depends on how much this virus weakens the lungs and body. Hearing a lot of blood clots and damaged lungs as a result.
> 
> The longer we can get data the better. At the same time the economy is an important factor as is mental health.



I hear ya but by the time we have all that data the cure will be worse than the disease re:economy and social impact.
The virus isn't going away and the linked paper below suggests that even after apparent elimination, a resurgence could be possible as late as 2024.
We need to bite the bullet sooner rather than later.
Time to quarantine the sick & vulnerable. 
Release the hounds by the end of the month.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/04/24/science.abb5793


----------



## basilio (4 May 2020)

Australia has been particularly successful at rapidly reducing  the number of new infections. This analysis examines how we did it.

*One hundred days of the coronavirus crisis*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...coronavirus-crisis-in-australia/12197884?nw=0


----------



## sptrawler (4 May 2020)

basilio said:


> Australia has been particularly successful at rapidly reducing  the number of new infections. This analysis examines how we did it.
> 
> *One hundred days of the coronavirus crisis*
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...coronavirus-crisis-in-australia/12197884?nw=0



IMO it is just great there were no knee jerk reactions and a technically driven response was enacted, despite constant media pressure during the early phase.


----------



## orr (5 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> IMO it is just great there were no knee jerk reactions and a technically driven response was enacted, despite constant media pressure during the early phase.




It's one way of looking at history I suppose Trawler;
 The first positive test result on the 'Diamond Princess' was Feb 1 three days later it was Quarantined in Yokohama.... The Ruby Princess disgorged it infected passangers at Circular Key on Thursday  19 of March...

I'll take the wheel on the next country drive hey Trawler; The Roo's  don't usually give me six weeks + notice.


----------



## sptrawler (5 May 2020)

orr said:


> It's one way of looking at history I suppose Trawler;
> The first positive test result on the 'Diamond Princess' was Feb 1 three days later it was Quarantined in Yokohama.... The Ruby Princess disgorged it infected passangers at Circular Key on Thursday  19 of March...
> 
> I'll take the wheel on the next country drive hey Trawler; The Roo's  don't usually give me six weeks + notice.



The Ruby Princess was a disaster, I wonder who's ar$e ended up in a sling over that one 

Generally though everyone has behaved pretty well, considering it is a first run, credit where credit is due we aren't renowned for doing as we are told.


----------



## basilio (5 May 2020)

The view of the 5 eyes intelligence network on the origins of COVID 19. 

* Five Eyes network contradicts theory Covid-19 leaked from lab *
No current evidence to suggest coronavirus leaked from Wuhan research lab, agencies say

There is no current evidence to suggest that coronavirus leaked from a Chinese research laboratory, intelligence sources have told the Guardian, contradicting recent White House claims that there is growing proof this is how the pandemic began.

*The sources also insisted that a “15-page dossier” highlighted by the Australian Daily Telegraph which accused China of a deadly cover up was not culled from intelligence from the Five Eyes network, an alliance between the UK, US, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...k-contradicts-theory-covid-19-leaked-from-lab

*


----------



## sptrawler (5 May 2020)

Sounds like there may some nasty side effects from the virus, mental health must be a huge problem.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/three-doctors-fall-from-hospital-windows-coronavirus-russia-023811759.html


----------



## basilio (5 May 2020)

This analysis highlights why the Trump administration is so desperate to divert attention from it's handling of the COVID 19 crisis. Some excellent graphs

*How the US stacks up to other countries in confirmed coronavirus cases*
The United States has about a third of the world’s coronavirus cases. 

The United States has the most confirmed Covid-19 cases in the world, with more than 13 times the number of cases reported in China and more than five times as many cases as Italy and Spain, other epicenters of the global outbreak. Confirmed infections in the US make up around a third of the world’s coronavirus cases.

...The US health system was less prepared for a pandemic than those of other wealthy nations. A high uninsured rate, high out-of-pocket health care costs, and low medical system capacity combined to make the country more vulnerable to a pathogen before the coronavirus ever came to our shores. America’s lax response in the early days of the outbreak only compounded those structural problems.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...s-us-countries-italy-iran-singapore-hong-kong


----------



## basilio (5 May 2020)

*Fauci: No scientific evidence the coronavirus was made in a Chinese lab*

In an exclusive interview, the face of America’s COVID-19 response cautions against the rush for states to reopen, and offers his tips for handling the pandemic's information deluge.

Anthony “Tony” Fauci has become the scientific face of America’s COVID-19 response, and he says the best evidence shows the virus behind the pandemic was not made in a lab in China.

Fauci, the director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, shot down the discussion that has been raging among politicians and pundits, calling it “a circular argument” in a conversation Monday with National Geographic.

“If you look at the evolution of the virus in bats and what's out there now, [the scientific evidence] is very, very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated … Everything about the stepwise evolution over time strongly indicates that [this virus] evolved in nature and then jumped species,” Fauci says. Based on the scientific evidence, he also doesn’t entertain an alternate theory—that someone found the coronavirus in the wild, brought it to a lab, and then it accidentally escaped.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...he-coronavirus-was-made-in-a-chinese-lab-cvd/

*But hey what would he know ? He's not President of the United States is he ?*
But the rest of the interview is cool. Well worth reading IMV.


----------



## dutchie (5 May 2020)

*Coronavirus NSW: Dossier lays out case against China bat virus program*

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/c...m/news-story/55add857058731c9c71c0e96ad17da60


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2020)

The Ruby Princess saga continues, looks as though a bit of an oversight on the State health dept, they wish they could have the time over and things would be done differently. Jeez we have all had them days.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...re-based-on-outdated-log-20200505-p54pyg.html
From the article:
A senior NSW Health official has broken down giving evidence at the Ruby Princess inquiry, saying if the department could have its time again it would have handled the situation differently.

When commissioner Bret Walker SC suggested there had been a "reprehensible shortcoming" by NSW Health in allowing people to disembark, senior epidemiologist for NSW Health Kelly-Anne Ressler said she was sorry for the way it had turned out.
On March 17, the ship's medical logs showed about 50 people had presented for acute respiratory symptoms, with another 54 people presenting in the following 24-hours, the inquiry heard.

Loading
When questioned about the increase, Ms Ressler said she assumed it was due to announcements being made on the ship for people with symptoms to present to the doctor.

Ms Ressler, who is the coordinator of the department's cruise ship health program, said the increase would qualify as an outbreak, but the health department thought it to be an influenza outbreak due to the number of positive flu tests.

Counsel assisting the commission Richard Beasley SC said NSW Health deemed the ship "low risk" on March 18, the day before it docked.


The assessment was based on the log which indicated 36 of 3795 people aboard, or 0.94 per cent, had presented to the medical centre with relevant flu-like symptoms.

Under the state government's draft guidelines developed by NSW Health on February 19, if the number of flu-like cases presented was equal to or greater than 1 per cent, it would indicate an outbreak had occurred and the ship would be deemed a higher risk. If two more people had presented, the ship would have met the one per cent threshold, the inquiry heard.


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> *Coronavirus NSW: Dossier lays out case against China bat virus program*
> 
> https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/c...m/news-story/55add857058731c9c71c0e96ad17da60



Jeez Dutchie, that is dynamite. I wonder if the story of the on selling of test animals to the market, will also be under investigation.

From the article:
_It can also be revealed the Australian government trained and funded a team of Chinese scientists who belong to a laboratory which went on to genetically modify deadly coronaviruses that could be transmitted from bats to humans and had no cure, and is now the subject of a probe into the origins of COVID-19.

As intelligence agencies investigate whether the virus inadvertently leaked from a Wuhan laboratory, the team and its research led by scientist Shi Zhengli feature in the dossier prepared by Western governments that points to several studies they conducted as areas of concern.

In Wuhan, in China’s Hubei province, not far from the now infamous Wuhan wet market, Dr Shi and her team work in high-protective gear in level-three and level-four bio-containment laboratories studying deadly bat-derived coronaviruses.

At least one of the estimated 50 virus samples Dr Shi has in her laboratory is a 96 per cent genetic match to COVID-19. When Dr Shi heard the news about the outbreak of a new pneumonia-like virus, she spoke about the sleepless nights she suffered worrying whether it was her lab that was responsible for the outbreak.

As she told Scientific American magazine in an article published this week: “Could they have come from our lab?” Since her initial fears, Dr Shi has satisfied herself the genetic sequence of COVID-19 did not match any her lab was studying.

Yet, given the extent of the People’s Republic of China’s lies, obfuscations and angry refusal to allow any investigation into the origin of the outbreak, her laboratory is now being closely looked at by international intelligence agencies.

The Australian government’s position is that the virus most likely originated in the Wuhan wet market but that there is a remote possibility — a 5 per cent chance — it accidentally leaked from a laboratory.

The US’s position, according to reports this week, is that it is more likely the virus leaked from a laboratory but it could also have come from a wet market that trades and slaughters wild animals, where other diseases including the H5N1 avian flu and SARS originated_.


----------



## rederob (6 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> *Coronavirus NSW: Dossier lays out case against China bat virus program*
> 
> https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/c...m/news-story/55add857058731c9c71c0e96ad17da60



You know your quoted article had zero facts in relation to China's actions, or do you?
There are no intelligence agencies giving the dossier any credence, not even the US.


----------



## dutchie (6 May 2020)

rederob said:


> You know your quoted article had zero facts in relation to China's actions, or do you?
> There are no intelligence agencies giving the dossier any credence, not even the US.




Jeez, not even the US?


----------



## rederob (6 May 2020)

Not content with conspiracy theories, we have a real life French connection.
What is important to note is that this person in France appears to have been unwell in mid-December.
It's also interesting to note that the USA can track back more instances of infection to Europe than China.
The UK's"patient zero" may be this person who contracted the virus in Austria while at a ski resort in mid-January.

What it puts to bed is the idea that China was going out of its way to hide something.  Until last month the French never even considered they could have had a patient in one of their hospital's ICU wards who was carrying a novel coronavirus!
The question now is what will other nations find if they carry out similar retrospective studies.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Not content with conspiracy theories, we have a real life French connection.
> What is important to note is that this person in France appears to have been unwell in mid-December.
> It's also interesting to note that the USA can track back more instances of infection to Europe than China.
> The UK's"patient zero" may be this person who contracted the virus in Austria while at a ski resort in mid-January.
> ...




All we want is the truth robbie not propaganda. Not from the Chinese or the Americans.


----------



## qldfrog (6 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> All we want is the truth robbie not propaganda. Not from the Chinese or the Americans.



Exactly, the truth and all the truth, about that L4 lab in Wuhan as much as climate change, DV, immigration or any serious subject.
We don't want slaughtered endangered species on the market stalls be they in China or Kinshasa, and we want more sustainable energy production, i can go for that agenda.But there are *no good lies for a good cause.*


----------



## rederob (6 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> All we want is the truth robbie not propaganda. Not from the Chinese or the Americans.



It's a coronavirus that has a genetic bat origin.
Beyond that you will get what the science determines.
So exactly what "truth" is it you want?


----------



## SirRumpole (6 May 2020)

rederob said:


> It's a coronavirus that has a genetic bat origin.
> Beyond that you will get what the science determines.
> So exactly what "truth" is it you want?




You have qualifications in this area, or are you just quoting propaganda that suits your world view ?

I want a panel of scientists in this area from all member nations of the WHO to decide how the virus arose , how it spread so fast, why it's so deadly and how we stop something similar happening again.

I'm not interested in blaming China or anyone else.


----------



## rederob (6 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> You have qualifications in this area, or are you just quoting propaganda that suits your world view ?
> 
> I want a panel of scientists in this area from all member nations of the WHO to decide how the virus arose , how it spread so fast, why it's so deadly and how we stop something similar happening again.
> 
> I'm not interested in blaming China or anyone else.



There are hundreds of existing science papers on the topic of coronaviruses.
With regard to any new zoonotic virus's effects on humans, that's very much an after the event matter, but is again the subject of hundreds of recent science papers.
Again, I am unsure of what you want to know.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Again, I am unsure of what you want to know.




Didn't I state that pretty clearly in my previous post ?


----------



## moXJO (6 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Not content with conspiracy theories, we have a real life French connection.
> What is important to note is that this person in France appears to have been unwell in mid-December.
> It's also interesting to note that the USA can track back more instances of infection to Europe than China.
> The UK's"patient zero" may be this person who contracted the virus in Austria while at a ski resort in mid-January.
> ...





Wuhan workers were in northern  Italy weren't they


----------



## rederob (6 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Didn't I state that pretty clearly in my previous post ?



All those issues are covered, so what exactly do you want to know?


----------



## SirRumpole (6 May 2020)

rederob said:


> All those issues are covered, so what exactly do you want to know?




How to stop it happening again.


----------



## rederob (6 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> How to stop it happening again.



It's not possible.
It's a virus.
It mutates.
Zoonotic viruses will continue to appear as its a natural consequence of evolution.


----------



## spooly74 (6 May 2020)

Keeping large varieties of live exotic animals in cramped, caged, unhygienic conditions simply guarantees transmission to humans. This practice accelerates the evolution of a virus. 
The warnings after Sars v1 were clear, it'll happen again.
If only there was a world health authority to clamp down on this, but alas, not even now. it's only a matter of time till we're back here again.



> Coronaviruses are well known to undergo genetic recombination (375), which may lead
> to new genotypes and outbreaks. The presence of a large reservoir
> of SARS-CoV-like viruses in horseshoe bats, together with
> the culture of eating exotic mammals in southern China, *is a time
> bomb*. From 2007


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> It's not possible.
> It's a virus.
> It mutates.
> Zoonotic viruses will continue to appear as its a natural consequence of evolution.




How did it get to humans rob ?


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> How did it get to humans rob ?



Seriously?
You don't understand "mutation?  Please do some reading on "evolution" as it is all explained there.
The fact that we share about 60% of our DNA with bananas does not make us Republicans!


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Seriously?
> You don't understand "mutation?  Please do some reading on "evolution" as it is all explained there.
> The fact that we share about 60% of our DNA with bananas does not make us Republicans!




Yes viruses mutate, but that's not the whole story.

Our interactions with wildlife and the environment exacerbate the spread of the viruses.

The current crisis might be the warning against environmental destruction that AGW hasn't been so far.

https://theconversation.com/how-do-...hy-are-spillovers-becoming-more-common-134656

https://theconversation.com/the-new...nd-may-be-devastating-enough-to-end-it-133333


----------



## dutchie (7 May 2020)

*US & UK Intelligence Warn China Is Trying To Hack Bio-Labs Working ON COVID Research*

The news also dovetails with a warning that states such as China could easily shut down entire western cities by hijacking proposed coronavirus contact-tracing apps and surveillance systems.

https://summit.news/2020/05/06/us-u...g-to-hack-bio-labs-working-on-covid-research/


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes viruses mutate, but that's not the whole story.
> Our interactions with wildlife and the environment exacerbate the spread of the viruses.



Ok, so again I do not know what you want to have investigated.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Ok, so again I do not know what you want to have investigated.




Your Sinophilia just won't let you admit that the Chinese wet markets could have been the origin of this pandemic, and until you admit that possibility exists your credibility on the issue is questionable.


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> *US & UK Intelligence Warn China Is Trying To Hack Bio-Labs Working ON COVID Research*
> 
> The news also dovetails with a warning that states such as China could easily shut down entire western cities by hijacking proposed coronavirus contact-tracing apps and surveillance systems.
> 
> https://summit.news/2020/05/06/us-u...g-to-hack-bio-labs-working-on-covid-research/



Sigh... more Sinophobia.
You know your link has zero evidence to support its claims, or can't you work that out?


----------



## dutchie (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Sigh... more Sinophobia.
> You know your link has zero evidence to support its claims, or can't you work that out?




Sigh ....I'm only posting to help educate you.  Or can't you work that out?


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Your Sinophilia just won't let you admit that the Chinese wet markets could have been the origin of this pandemic, and until you admit that possibility exists your credibility on the issue is questionable.



I use evidence in most of my posts, Rumpy.
Virologists predominantly do not consider Wuhan's wet market as the source for a number of reasons, and these are explained in their many works to date.
*I don't find it constructive to assume* to be true those things which are not so likely, but are continuing to be peddled in popular media (especially right wing outfits).
You are constantly calling for an investigation, and I keep wondering what it is that you want to know from it that we don't already know.  That said, there are some things we might never know.  For example bats somehow infected camels, and then camels infested people with MERS.  That was 8 years ago, and we are none the wiser today.  The back story to MERS has some parallels to what happened at Wuhan, except it took months for the WHO to then be involved.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> I use evidence in most of my posts, Rumpy.




If you don't look for evidence rob, it's not surprising if you don't find it.


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If you don't look for evidence rob, it's not surprising if you don't find it.



Can you please explain what you are looking for, as I have asked many times and you come back empty handed every time.
I have watched and listened to politicians from the UK, USA and Australia who think there should be an *investigation*, but not one has yet said what they are looking for.  It seems to be a common theme.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Can you please explain what you are looking for, as I have asked many times and you come back empty handed every time.
> I have watched and listened to politicians from the UK, USA and Australia who think there should be an *investigation*, but not one has yet said what they are looking for.  It seems to be a common theme.




There are a lot of theories about the mechanisms of transmission of this virus from animal to human.

Different experts have different ideas, they can't all be right.

I'm looking for a consensus based on science not propaganda.

You seem desperate to avoid a conclusion that wet markets have been involved. I don't know why. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear from a full impartial investigation.

*"I have asked many times and you come back empty handed every time."
*
That's because you don't appear to be able to read plain English.
*
*


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> There are a lot of theories about the mechanisms of transmission of this virus from animal to human.
> Different experts have different ideas, they can't all be right.
> I'm looking for a consensus based on science not propaganda.



That's called *scientific discovery*, and has nothing to do with an "*investigation*."


SirRumpole said:


> You seem desperate to avoid a conclusion that wet markets have been involved. I don't know why. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear from a full impartial investigation.



I have stated in these threads that the majority of early illnesses had an *association *with the wet markets.  It may have been sheer coincidence given what the virologists believe about how this virus spreads.
These markets were "cleansed" and have been closed for 5 months now.
The simple fact here is that time and time again when I ask you about what should be investigated you have no idea.


----------



## sptrawler (7 May 2020)

It is certainly proving to be a very new style of corona virus, quite exceptional the side effects, no wonder the panic set in early. 
Who would have guessed it was going to be this bad.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-05-07/coronavirus-blood-clot-stroke/12220474
From the article:
_A growing body of evidence is painting a grim picture of how coronavirus can wreak havoc from one end of the body to the other.

It's well established that COVID-19 affects the respiratory system and targets the lungs. But several studies and anecdotal evidence suggest the disease may also cause super-charged blood clotting that damages vital organs, including the kidneys, heart and brain.

The pattern of abnormal blood clotting is being recognised as a new phenomenon doctors are calling 'COVID-19-associated coagulopathy' or CAC_.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> The simple fact here is that time and time again when I ask you about what should be investigated you have no idea.




As I said you can't read plain English.


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> As I said you can't read plain English.



All your written concerns have been addressed.
What is it that you believe is somewhere "hidden?"
You seem confused about the difference between what can be learned from scientific inquiry, and what can be "*investigated*" through other means.
If you have a need to know something from other inquiry, you clearly state what the goals or objectives are, rather than go "fishing."
You keep going fishing, and will achieve nothing.


----------



## sptrawler (7 May 2020)

Another good write up on the latest findings with the virus.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/study-suggests-coronavirus-transmitted-globally-december-233818181.html
From the article:
*Claims of two strains ‘inaccurate’*
_In a second study also published on Wednesday, scientists at Britain's University of Glasgow who also analysed SARS-CoV-2 virus samples said their findings showed that previous work suggesting there were two different strains was inaccurate.

A preliminary study by Chinese scientists in March had suggested there may have been two strains of the coronavirus causing infections there, with one of them more "aggressive" than the other.
But publishing their analysis in the journal Virus Evolution, the Glasgow team said only one type of the virus was circulating.

More than 3.68 million people have been reported to be infected by the novel coronavirus globally and 256,000 have died, according to a Reuters tally.

Infections have been reported in more than 210 countries and territories since cases were first identified in China in December 2019_.

_Their results add to a growing body of evidence that SARS-CoV-2 viruses share a common ancestor from late 2019, suggesting this was when the virus jumped from a previous animal host into people.

This means it is unlikely the new virus was circulating in people for long before it was first detected, Balloux said.

"If we focus our efforts on parts of the virus that are less likely to mutate, we have a better chance of developing drugs that will be effective in the long run," Balloux said.


"If we focus our efforts on parts of the virus that are less likely to mutate, we have a better chance of developing drugs that will be effective in the long run," Balloux said_.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> You seem confused about the difference between what can be learned from scientific inquiry, and what can be "*investigated*" through other means.




Well that's just semantics and obfuscation. So lets have an investigation instead of an enquiry. Does that help you ?


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well that's just semantics and obfuscation. So lets have an investigation instead of an enquiry. Does that help you ?



Maybe 10 times now I have asked you to clarify the exact nature of what it is you want to know, and you have avoided those details on every occasion.
It was the same in the Folau thread where you kept repeating the same thing, and refused to acknowledge and could not show it had no legal basis.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Maybe 10 times now I have asked you to clarify the exact nature of what it is you want to know, and you have avoided those details on every occasion.




For the gazillionth time

*What was the mechanism for the transmission of the virus from animals to humans and can we prevent it happening again.

Was there concealment or coverup of the outbreak by the Chinese or anyone else to the extent that the global pandemic could have been avoided or mitigated.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I trust you can comprehend this, I can't go any bigger I'm afraid.*


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> For the gazillionth time
> 
> *What was the mechanism for the transmission of the virus from animals to humans and can we prevent it happening again.*



That was addressed.
It's the very nature of scientific inquiry to try and find these answers, and it may be we never will.
And as I said, it's impossible to prevent similar occurrences in future - that's a scientific fact!*


SirRumpole said:



			Was there concealment or coverup of the outbreak by the Chinese or anyone else to the extent that the global pandemic could have been avoided or mitigated.
		
Click to expand...


*The WHO has addressed these matters.  I take it you do not want to believe them.
The Wuhan Health Commission advised Chinese authorities about what they were sure of on 30 December, and the next day the WHO was advised.
I have presented the timeline on several occasions, and that info is also in the public arena.
Taiwan was aware of the info posted by the Wuhan Health Commission on 31 December and took immediate action.  South Korea and Hong Kong did the same a few days later.  Look at how their actions mitigated spread.
What do you believe may have been *covered up?
*
What really needs to be investigated is why so many other nations were so poor at responding, especially seeing that the lessons from Wuhan led to a per capita death rate fewer than Australia's.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (7 May 2020)

Boring

and _*CAC *_seems to be appropriate

_*Covid-19 Associated Coagulapathy*_


> A growing body of evidence is painting a grim picture of how coronavirus can wreak havoc from one end of the body to the other. It's well established that COVID-19 affects the respiratory system and targets the lungs. But several studies and anecdotal evidence suggest the disease may also cause super-charged blood clotting that damages vital organs, including the kidneys, heart and brain. The New England Journal of Medicine recently published a case report on a small cluster of strokes in New York that involved young, healthy people, who had the virus but no known risk factors for stroke.



https://hematology.org/covid-19/covid-19-and-coagulopathy

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-05-07/coronavirus-blood-clot-stroke/12220474


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> The WHO has addressed these matters. I take it you do not want to believe them.




The WHO doesn't want to offend anyone otherwise they may lose their funding.

They are incapable of producing an unbiased report especially when they have countries like China and the US threatening their existence.

Form an independent committee which does not depend on anyone for ongoing funding and find the TRUTH.


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The WHO doesn't want to offend anyone otherwise they may lose their funding.



Member nations are required to meet their obligations, but that's not the point.  
The WHO has already sanctioned international investigations.  They are wholly apolitical, so your claim is false.


SirRumpole said:


> Form an independent committee which does not depend on anyone for ongoing funding and find the TRUTH.



Again, the truth to what?
You offer nothing that we do not already know.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Again, the truth to what?
> You offer nothing that we do not already know.




And you keep sticking your head in the sand, afraid of seeing the truth.


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> And you keep sticking your head in the sand, afraid of seeing the truth.



Remarkable!
The truth has been revealed.
You want an alternative truth.
But you don't even know what questions need to be asked that have not already been answered.
I have responded to every single point you have raised, so it is a blatant lie to suggest I am sticking my head in the sand.
You keep firing blanks and killing your own lack of an argument.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Remarkable!
> The truth has been revealed.
> You want an alternative truth.
> But you don't even know what questions need to be asked that have not already been answered.
> ...




If you want to believe everything you are told by vested interests that's your problem, I'm not that gullible.


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If you want to believe everything you are told by vested interests that's your problem, I'm not that gullible.



Again, that's not what is at issue.
There is a verifiable chain of information available to anyone looking, but you clearly are not looking.
Or, if you do see it and it's not what you wanted it to be or say, then you ignore it.
Then you make incorrect statements about the World Health Organisation.
It's hard to think  that an organisation comprising 194 nations would not want to sponsor an inquiry into COVID-19 if they believed they were being diddled by China!  
It seems you will only be happy when whatever you are unable to enunciate happens in the manner you personally deem acceptable because it meets your criteria of independence.  Reminds me of the WMD inspectors who were not believed by Western nations, and their unsubstantiated "investigations" led to a war.  Great outcome for the Iraqis!


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> It's hard to think that an organisation comprising 194 nations would not want to sponsor an inquiry into COVID-19 if they believed they were being diddled by China!




Wait and see on that.

Countries are still busy dealing with the dead, the sick and the unemployed.

When it all sinks in what damage they have suffered, I think there are going to be a lot of rather angry countries wanting an enquiry.


----------



## dutchie (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Again, that's not what is at issue.
> There is a verifiable chain of information available to anyone looking, but you clearly are not looking.
> Or, if you do see it and it's not what you wanted it to be or say, then you ignore it.
> Then you make incorrect statements about the World Health Organisation.
> ...




The WHO is China's bitch.


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> When it all sinks in what damage they have suffered, I think there are going to be a lot of rather angry countries wanting an *enquiry*.



Into what?
Their own mismanagement?
You are a broken record.


----------



## sptrawler (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> TRUTH.




The truth is, China responded extremely aggressively and effectively to contain the problem in Wuhan, in all probability because they new exactly what they were dealing with.
It is a shame the rest of the World, initially didn't realise how potent a virus they were dealing with.


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The truth is, China responded extremely aggressively and effectively to contain the problem in Wuhan, in all probability because they new exactly what they were dealing with.



If that were so then it does not explain why thousands of nurses plus doctors got infected - many dying.  In all probability, it was the exact opposite of what you said.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> You are a broken record.




You are just cracked.


----------



## rederob (7 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> You are just cracked.



I demand an inquiry.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> I demand an inquiry.




First funny thing you said.


----------



## moXJO (7 May 2020)

The truth is China covered up SARS in much the same way. That's track record history. That's right it happened before.
They then failed despite all the systems for early warning after SARS.

There is no proof that the virus originated anywhere else but from the wet market with the current evidence. 

China did silence doctors very early, also stopped testing results. 

Even with what's on record they knew it was transmissible pre Jan. There was a doctor on record.

China allowed 5 million people to travel all over the world.

Their figures are dodgy by all models so far.

Every victim outside China is a China statistic.

They have not let who in to do investigation.

Taiwan knew they had  underreported the situation and locked down.

The propaganda wing is currently pushing 4 things:
That the US is failing.

The origin of the virus (pushing italy, California, Europe)

That China was the best in the world with their fudged figures.

Painting anyone against it is racist.


----------



## PZ99 (7 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> The WHO is China's bitch.



They won't be fooled again


----------



## sptrawler (7 May 2020)

rederob said:


> If that were so then it does not explain why thousands of nurses plus doctors got infected - many dying.  In all probability, it was the exact opposite of what you said.



I see you are still using nonsense arguments.
Just knowing what the infection is does not stop you from getting it, as is proven all over the World, where medical staff are still getting infected.


----------



## rederob (8 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I see you are still using nonsense arguments.
> Just knowing what the infection is does not stop you from getting it, as is proven all over the World, where medical staff are still getting infected.



Your point was predicated on "*probability*" and you clearly do not understand what this concept means.
Drivers who obey the law can still have accidents, but that probability compared to those who do not, will be low. 
Similarly, if medical and health professionals "*knew exactly what they were dealing with*" as you have suggested, then the probability that thousands of them would be infected is implausible: they are trained to take appropriate precautions.
It would assist you to apply sound reasoning to your comments instead of senseless opinions.


----------



## spooly74 (8 May 2020)

Very good summary of Sars v2 in this Nature review, although slightly sobering.


----------



## Knobby22 (8 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny how the Greens have been totally invisible during this period.
> 
> Who is their leader again ?
> 
> Oh yes, that Bandt chappie, haven't heard a word from him.




Not totally invisible.
They have joined with the intellectual giants the Hansonites and Barnaby to not download the app.
The Greens are just anti everything as per usual. Stuff the good of society.

South Korea has the pubs open now because everyone has the app.


----------



## rederob (8 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said still talking nonsense.



Your opinions continue to ignore reason.
Why not at least attempt to justify what you state so that you might be taken seriously?


----------



## sptrawler (8 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Your opinions continue to ignore reason.
> Why not at least attempt to justify what you state so that you might be taken seriously?



No, as others have found your endless nonsense becomes boring, most are open minded about discussion you arent.
As has been proven in other threads, as will no doubt will happen on this one, you just blindly career along making personal attacks and calling it supporting evidence.


----------



## rederob (8 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> No, as others have found your endless nonsense becomes boring, most are open minded about discussion you arent.
> As has been proven in other threads, as will no doubt will happen on this one, you just blindly career along making personal attacks and calling it supporting evidence.



You regularly use *your opinion* as the foundation of your posts.
I seldom do, and consistently reference supporting material.
I make a point of critiquing what people say, and your claim otherwise is false.
If you do not appreciate the role of critical thinking when constructing a post, it's probably best you don't make the post.


----------



## moXJO (8 May 2020)

rederob said:


> You regularly use *your opinion* as the foundation of your posts.
> I seldom do, and consistently reference supporting material.
> I make a point of critiquing what people say, and your claim otherwise is false.
> If you do not appreciate the role of critical thinking when constructing a post, it's probably best you don't make the post.



Do you take your own advice. You have offered little in the way of supporting evidence  throughout. The CCP hymn sheet is hardly factual. Neither is your use of "sinophobes", which is highly amusing. I'm surprised you haven't yelled "Nazi" yet.


----------



## dutchie (8 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> Do you take your own advice. You have offered little in the way of supporting evidence  throughout. The CCP hymn sheet is hardly factual. Neither is your use of "sinophobes", which is highly amusing. I'm surprised you haven't yelled "Nazi" yet.



Give him time.


----------



## satanoperca (8 May 2020)

A light read, very interesting.

https://nerdhaspower.weebly.com/
https://nerdhaspower.weebly.com/ratg13-is-fake.html

The truth will come out.


----------



## satanoperca (8 May 2020)

"What is the true origin of the Wuhan coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2, 2019nCoV, the CCP virus)? Many scientific publications seem to tell you that the virus was born from nature. How reliable are these publications? While, before I comment on that, I would like to bring out an important fact: all of such publications rely on a single evidence – the sequence of a bat coronavirus named RaTG13. "


----------



## moXJO (8 May 2020)

satanoperca said:


> A light read, very interesting.
> 
> https://nerdhaspower.weebly.com/
> https://nerdhaspower.weebly.com/ratg13-is-fake.html
> ...



Very good read backed by some deep investigation.

I know Professor Petr Chumakov made similar comments that it is indeed man-made and India is doing a very thorough investigation.
Be interesting to see after further study.


----------



## sptrawler (8 May 2020)

rederob said:


> You regularly use *your opinion* as the foundation of your posts.
> I seldom do, and consistently reference supporting material.
> I make a point of critiquing what people say, and your claim otherwise is false.
> If you do not appreciate the role of critical thinking when constructing a post, it's probably best you don't make the post.



You said thousands of Chinese doctors and nurses were infected and many died.
Can you give a link to that?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 May 2020)

Of course China has nothing to hide.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...ournalists-during-coronavirus-crisis/12227782

Yeah, right.


----------



## dutchie (9 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course China has nothing to hide.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...ournalists-during-coronavirus-crisis/12227782
> 
> Yeah, right.



Geez, even the ABC is sinophobic!


----------



## rederob (9 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> Geez, even the ABC is sinophobic!



No Dutchie.  The ABC reported what has happened.  
Would you like me to sent you a good dictionary?


----------



## dutchie (9 May 2020)

China lied
Many people around the world unnecessarily died.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> China lied
> Many people around the world unnecessarily died.



And other deliberate actions will result in thousands  more avoidable deaths in a certain country.
They need to  divert attention.


----------



## moXJO (9 May 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> And other deliberate actions will result in thousands  more avoidable deaths in a certain country.
> They need to  divert attention.



Sweden or US?

One is higher up on the list, neither have the highest total number of deaths as a %


----------



## noirua (9 May 2020)

A New York city street sweeper wears a mask to help check the spread of the influenza epidemic, October 1918. In the view of one official of the New York Health Board, it is 'Better be ridiculous, than dead'.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> Sweden or US?
> 
> One is higher up on the list, neither have the highest total number of deaths as a %



The one with the election coming up.


----------



## IFocus (9 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> Sweden or US?
> 
> One is higher up on the list, neither have the highest total number of deaths as a %




Its starting to look like a race between the US and UK for winner of most deaths as a % as 30 US states with rising infection rates reverse lock downs my money is the US will take the honours a real tragedy.

Still its a great result for the US ( Trump said) as he keeps upping the expected deaths what a great job he is doing.


----------



## moXJO (9 May 2020)

IFocus said:


> Its starting to look like a race between the US and UK for winner of most deaths as a % as 30 US states with rising infection rates reverse lock downs my money is the US will take the honours a real tragedy.
> 
> Still its a great result for the US ( Trump said) as he keeps upping the expected deaths what a great job he is doing.



Sweden didn't bother to lockdown. They don't mind knocking off their citizens though. Plus their health care is a lot better.

Our list of top contenders in order of death per million:

San Marino 
Belgium 
Andorra 
Spain 
Italy 
UK 
France 
Sint Maarten 
Sweden 
Netherlands 
Ireland 
Isle of Man 
USA

Why is it only one of the names on the list come up for discussion I wonder.


----------



## noirua (9 May 2020)




----------



## dutchie (10 May 2020)

*China asked the WHO to cover up the coronavirus outbreak: German intelligence service*
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3931126


----------



## rederob (10 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> *China asked the WHO to cover up the coronavirus outbreak: German intelligence service*
> https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3931126



When are you going to fact check anything you post?
If you do not know that your post is nonsense, best you do not keep shooting yourself in the foot.


----------



## dutchie (10 May 2020)

rederob said:


> When are you going to fact check anything you post?
> If you do not know that your post is nonsense, best you do not keep shooting yourself in the foot.



I will post whatever I like and I definitely will not fact check it!


----------



## SirRumpole (10 May 2020)

rederob said:


> When are you going to fact check anything you post?
> If you do not know that your post is nonsense, best you do not keep shooting yourself in the foot.




Why do you say the report is not factual ?


----------



## basilio (10 May 2020)

Yes it was funny. And she isn't really gunning for a Darwin award.
But check out the guy further down the paper. Definately a front runner for this years Darwins

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/...ady-who-made-viral-coronavirus-video-11628230


----------



## rederob (10 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Why do you say the report is not factual ?



Because it's not.
The facts have been presented many times and are online for anyone to check!


----------



## SirRumpole (10 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Because it's not.
> The facts have been presented many times and are online for anyone to check!




So give us a link to say why this report can't be true.


----------



## rederob (10 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So give us a link to say why this report can't be true.



I have done that previously and won't be repeating it.
As I have also said many times, it was known to be SARS-like from the outset, which meant human to human transmission was likely.  The WHO, however, can't will nilly assume its happening, as it must be proven in order to be announced officially. Gathering that scientific evidence took some weeks.
Again, for those who care to look, the information is freely available.


----------



## basilio (10 May 2020)

This report covers some ground.

* US claims of China coronavirus lab leak an ‘attempt to distract’ from Trump’s own mistakes: Germany *

*A German intelligence report said the allegations are a ‘calculated attempt to distract’ from Washington’s own failings*
On Wednesday, Secretary of State Pompeo renewed his widely contested charge that the coronavirus likely originated in a Chinese lab
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/eur...onavirus-lab-leak-attempt-distract-trumps-own


----------



## rederob (10 May 2020)

basilio said:


> This report covers some ground.
> 
> * US claims of China coronavirus lab leak an ‘attempt to distract’ from Trump’s own mistakes: Germany *
> 
> ...



This links to a recent press conference in Beijing, where all the recent and most topical issues were raised by both international and Chinese media organisations.
Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying's replies were detailed and forthright.
The claim that China is thwarting an examination of the events and response surrounding COV19 was firmly put to bed, as were many other matters.
Of course there are many readers who will simply say it's Chinese propaganda and not worth a cracker.  It's one thing to say it, however, and another to prove it.  Hua's arsenal of facts was formidable and you will be hard pressed to find any misstep.  
Comparing her performance to anything this year from the USA is like comparing cheese with chalk.


----------



## dutchie (10 May 2020)

Pure propaganda bullsh#t by the PRC

https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_665399/s2510_665401/t1777215.shtml


----------



## dutchie (10 May 2020)

*LORD PATTEN: China's nasty, lying, bullying Communist regime must face the judgment of the world over the coronavirus pandemic*

As the coronavirus ravages the world – killing, shattering families, destroying jobs and businesses, ripping through economies, threatening still worse in some of the poorest countries – we know three things for certain.

First, Covid-19 began in Wuhan. Second, the early signs and spread of the virus were covered up. Third, the Chinese Communist party has consistently lied about these issues and has exploited the world’s preoccupations with fighting the pandemic to flex its muscles globally – hectoring, bullying and breaking its word.
We should be clear about something else. This is not the fault of the Chinese people. Brave Chinese doctors and nurses, like our own, have lost their lives fighting the disease.
When some tried to blow the whistle about what was happening, Communist officials used the security services to shut them up.

*While medical staff were gagged, the pandemic began to spread through Wuhan in late January and February. Millions left the city and the surrounding Hubei province for their New Year holidays. They travelled within China and to other parts of the world. That is the fundamental reason why today every country is menaced.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...mmunist-regime-face-judgment-coronavirus.html
*


----------



## rederob (10 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> *LORD PATTEN: China's nasty, lying, bullying Communist regime must face the judgment of the world over the coronavirus pandemic*
> 
> As the coronavirus ravages the world – killing, shattering families, destroying jobs and businesses, ripping through economies, threatening still worse in some of the poorest countries – we know three things for certain.
> 
> ...



You are just spamming now Dutchie.
If there was truth to the article then Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea would have been riddled with deaths.  But that has not been the case!
Even though Australia was slow to react, we have shown that firm measures prevent spread and reduce deaths.
In fact, almost 3 times as many Australians have died on our roads since the WHO was first notified about COV19.  Many more again have died from other preventable diseases, eg 50 times as many will have died from dementia, including Alzheimer.


----------



## dutchie (10 May 2020)

rederob said:


> You are just spamming now Dutchie.
> If there was truth to the article then Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea would have been riddled with deaths.  But that has not been the case!
> Even though Australia was slow to react, we have shown that firm measures prevent spread and reduce deaths.
> In fact, almost 3 times as many Australians have died on our roads since the WHO was first notified about COV19.  Many more again have died from other preventable diseases, eg 50 times as many will have died from dementia, including Alzheimer.




So what you are saying is that Lord Patten is a liar.


----------



## rederob (10 May 2020)

This was interesting, and I do not know where the SBS got their information from.
A resolution was put forward by the ID Group - a bit like a European version of *One Nation*.
And the European Parliament adopted its position, which was very different from what Hunt was after.
I'm not aware of anything more recent from the EU.


----------



## rederob (10 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> So what you are saying is that Lord Patten is a liar.



I don't need to as the only fact he seems to have got right was that Wuhan was the first place to discover the virus, despite the fact that a French person had COV19 about 2 weeks before the WHO was notified by China.


----------



## moXJO (10 May 2020)

basilio said:


> This report covers some ground.
> 
> * US claims of China coronavirus lab leak an ‘attempt to distract’ from Trump’s own mistakes: Germany *
> 
> ...



They also said:

Spiegel reported that German authorities also targeted China with criticism, citing "BND information" that Beijing pressured the World Health Organization to delay issuing a global warning after the initial outbreak in Wuhan.

"In a January 21 telephone call, Chinese President Xi Jinping asked WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus to hold back information about person-to-person transmission and delay a pandemic warning," the news weekly wrote on its website.

"According to the BND's assessment, China's information policy cost four to six weeks of time to fight the virus worldwide," Spiegel added.


----------



## moXJO (10 May 2020)

rederob said:


> This links to a recent press conference in Beijing, where all the recent and most topical issues were raised by both international and Chinese media organisations.
> Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying's replies were detailed and forthright.
> The claim that China is thwarting an examination of the events and response surrounding COV19 was firmly put to bed, as were many other matters.
> Of course there are many readers who will simply say it's Chinese propaganda and not worth a cracker.  It's one thing to say it, however, and another to prove it.  Hua's arsenal of facts was formidable and you will be hard pressed to find any misstep.
> Comparing her performance to anything this year from the USA is like comparing cheese with chalk.



It is propaganda though. And you haven't based anything off any evidence.


----------



## moXJO (10 May 2020)

Was floating through a few forums saw this pop up in a thread.



> Nov 15, 2019
> a very infectious form of plague has just hit prc. don’t know how patients are quarantined, but there’s widespread panic now in beijing. prc really brings deadly diseases to the planet. may just wipe out 69% of their population first.






> It's reported to be a rat-borne disease but there are rumors that it could be the black plague.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




https://www.sammyboy.com/threads/br...-collapse-of-china.276238/page-2#post-3002057

That was back in nov 15.

This is now heavily popping up in the socials.
Greenspring Retirement Community  June 30.


Rob mentioned the French having it earlier, more then likely due to the wuhan military games in October.


----------



## noirua (10 May 2020)

*Will Covid-19 mutate into a more dangerous virus?*
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/10/will-covid-19-mutate-into-a-more-dangerous-virus

*New York warns of children's illness linked to Covid-19 after three deaths*
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/09/children-coronavirus-death-kawasaki


----------



## macca (11 May 2020)

We were chatting with a friend over the weekend and she was telling us about her close friend in China.

Our friend has serious health problems and was advised at Christmas Time by her Chinese friend to stock up and isolate herself should a new virus arrive from China as it was killing anyone who had chronic illness

Our friend was talking with her friend again last week and she said the second wave had started in China and is just as bad if not worse than the first, many people are dying again.

I realise that this is just one person but it is an unfiltered assessment of her locality in China and she and her family are all quite scared of this thing.

It ain't over yet folks..............


----------



## rederob (11 May 2020)

Hmmm... France in December and New Jersey in November.
The plot thickens.


----------



## moXJO (11 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Hmmm... France in December and New Jersey in November.
> The plot thickens.



Jesus, wuhan military games.
They were in October.
Now who is off on conspiracy theories.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (11 May 2020)

tying it together, chaps (a bit)

Recently and widely diffused, a dateline *mid October:* (_ The Telegraph _UK )


> US intelligence agencies are reportedly examining mobile phone data suggesting there could have been an emergency shutdown in October at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
> According to a report, obtained by NBC News, there was no mobile phone activity in a high-security part of the Chinese laboratory complex from October 7 to 24. Previously, there had been consistent use of mobile phones.



and reprinted in local press https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wo...ible-shutdown-in-october-20200510-p54rid.html

and also, the French radio report, a RF2 report from France suspecting the first Covid-19 case in France on *16 Nov.* (looking at 2500 thoracic scans from the time.
https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/san...-des-le-mois-de-novembre-en-alsace-1588830642

Up to you,   .... and if you like a bit of google, this is interesting:







> There is new evidence to show that China locked down all domestic traffic internally by end January 2020 but pushed to open foreign travel till end March. Data from Tom Tom traffic index, a traffic location site that covers 416 cities across 57 countries show that as a result of this strategy, China, intentionally or otherwise, was able to lockdown its cities unknown to the world.





> While this reduced the spread of the Corona virus within China, China’s aggressive foreign travel policy lead to a virus explosion worldwide. Here is the chronological events of what happened with the requisite traffic data from 10 major cities globally and the statements from Chinese leaders that will help readers reach their own conclusions.



https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...nally-for-covid-19-but-pushed-foreign-travel/


----------



## rederob (11 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> tying it together, chaps (a bit)
> 
> Recently and widely diffused, a dateline *mid October:* (_ The Telegraph _UK )
> and reprinted in local press https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wo...ible-shutdown-in-october-20200510-p54rid.html
> ...



I doubt there are many facts amongst all that.
Reporting on COV19 is so poor that most people have no idea that the WHO has no authority to declare a "pandemic.  Instead, on 30 January the UN Director-General declared that the outbreak constituted a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC).


----------



## Dona Ferentes (11 May 2020)

> Scientists have begun narrowing down how the coronavirus is spreading, and also pinpointing when it first began transmission around the world — and it’s earlier than first thought.
> 
> University College London’s Genetics Institute have screened the genomes of more than 7500 viruses from infected patients around the world. “Phylogenetic estimates support that the COVID-2 pandemic started sometime around October 6, 2019 to December 11, 2019, which corresponds to the time of the host jump into humans,” lead researcher Francois Balloux said.




https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/may/mutations-sars-cov-2-offer-insights-virus-evolution


----------



## bellenuit (11 May 2020)

_The World Health Organization declared a global pandemic due to the rise of COVID-19_

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-does-it-mean-to-declare-a-pandemic

*Who Can Declare a Pandemic and What Criteria Are Required for an Outbreak to Be Called a Pandemic?*

_The World Health Organization (WHO) is responsible for declaring a pandemic._

https://www.britannica.com/story/wh...uired-for-an-outbreak-to-be-called-a-pandemic

*WHO declares the coronavirus outbreak a pandemic*

_The World Health Organization on Wednesday declared the rapidly spreading coronavirus outbreak a pandemic, acknowledging what has seemed clear for some time — the virus will likely spread to all countries on the globe._

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/11/who-declares-the-coronavirus-outbreak-a-pandemic/


----------



## DB008 (12 May 2020)

*Hoping Llamas Will Become Coronavirus Heroes*​
Winter is a 4-year-old chocolate-colored llama with spindly legs, ever-so-slightly askew ears and envy-inducing eyelashes. Some scientists hope she might be an important figure in the fight against the novel coronavirus.​
She is not a superpowered camelid. Winter was simply the lucky llama chosen by researchers in Belgium, where she lives, to participate in a series of virus studies involving both SARS and MERS. Finding that her antibodies staved off those infections, the scientists posited that those same antibodies could also neutralize the new virus that causes Covid-19. They were right, and published their results Tuesday in the journal Cell.​
Scientists have long turned to llamas for antibody research. In the last decade, for example, scientists have used llamas’ antibodies in H.I.V. and influenza research, finding promising therapies for both viruses.​
Humans produce only one kind of antibody, made of two types of protein chains — heavy and light — that together form a Y shape. Heavy-chain proteins span the entire Y, while light-chain proteins touch only the Y’s arms. Llamas, on the other hand, produce two types of antibodies. One of those antibodies is similar in size and constitution to human antibodies. But the other is much smaller; it’s only about 25 percent the size of human antibodies. The llama’s antibody still forms a Y, but its arms are much shorter because it doesn’t have any light-chain proteins.​

More on link below

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/06/science/llama-coronavirus-antibodies.html

​


----------



## rederob (12 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> _The World Health Organization declared a global pandemic due to the rise of COVID-19_
> 
> https://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-does-it-mean-to-declare-a-pandemic
> 
> ...



The WHO can *assess *a virus as being *characterised *as pandemic, but it means nothing in terms of what the WHO actually does, that is, act within its powers.
The powers of the WHO are limited to when the UN Director-General declares an outbreak as a Public Health Emergency of International Concern.
You will not find anywhere in the WHO's powers that it can make an *official declaration of a pandemic.*
Maybe that needs to change.
However, if it were to change then it would also need to confer on the WHO additional powers and responsibilities, and these would necessarily override the powers of member nations.  That's never going to happen as even within nations we have seen federal governments unable to dictate terms to their States who have their own legislative powers.


----------



## basilio (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Hmmm... France in December and New Jersey in November.
> The plot thickens.




That reference Rederob offers is startling.  Seems like there is evidence the virus had already spread widely through New Jersey in November 2019.
It challenges the current view that the virus started in Wuhan
I have posted a short part of a response from poster T.P. The remainder explores this proposition in detail




 T. P.  2 days ago
On June 30, 2019, way before the outbreak in Wuhan, a “respiratory outbreak” occurred in Greenspring Retirement Community in Springfield, Virginia. Fifty-four old folks became ill with "respiratory symptoms ranging from upper respiratory symptoms (cough) to pneumonia" with symptoms of "fever, cough, body aches, wheezing, hoarseness and general weakness." It was assumed that this was the “usual” illness despite Benjamin Schwartz, a health department director, stating that "Seeing a respiratory outbreak in a long-term care facility is not odd [but] one thing that's different about this outbreak is just that it's occurring in the summer when, usually, we don't have a lot of respiratory disease." [ https://abcnews.go.com/US/respiratory-outbreak-investigated-retirement-community-54-residents-fall/story?id=64275865 ]

In late January 2020, Dr. Helen Y. Chu, an infectious disease expert in Seattle, requested state and federal officials for permission to test the nasal swabs that she and her team had been collecting for months, for Covid-19. The collections were done prior to the outbreak in Wuhan as part of her team’s “Seattle Flu Study” project. She and her team were denied this permission by the government, decided to go ahead without “government approval” on February 25, 2020, and discovered that some of these “flu” were actually “Covid-19”. Dr Chu’s immediate thoughts were: “It must have been here this entire time … it’s just everywhere already.” [ NYT, March 10, 2020 ].


----------



## moXJO (12 May 2020)

You guys are quoting from China global television network.
It's the propaganda arm


----------



## bellenuit (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> You will not find anywhere in the WHO's powers that it can make an *official declaration of a pandemic.*




WHO's powers to declare a pandemic are given to it by International Health Regulations (IHR). IHR is the leading international agreement on infectious diseases and other serious disease events adopted by WHO member states in 2005.





WHO has made an official declaration of a pandemic several times in the past. 

I will again quote from Encyclopaedia Britannica to assist with your badly needed edification....

*Who Can Declare a Pandemic and What Criteria Are Required for an Outbreak to Be Called a Pandemic?*

_The World Health Organization (WHO) is responsible for declaring a pandemic._

https://www.britannica.com/story/wh...uired-for-an-outbreak-to-be-called-a-pandemic

From the same source....

_In March 2020 an ongoing outbreak of a novel coronavirus known as severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV2) was declared a pandemic by WHO officials. Infection with SARS-CoV2 produced an illness known as coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19);_

There are hundreds of sources that directly contradict your claim. Another to add to the list...

*WHO declares a pandemic of coronavirus disease covid-19*
_
The World Health Organization on Wednesday declared coronavirus a pandemic, reflecting alarm that countries aren’t working quickly and aggressively enough to fight the disease it causes, covid-19.

“We are deeply concerned both by the alarming levels of spread and severity and by the alarming levels of inaction,” said WHO Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus.

For weeks now, the WHO has hesitated to make the pandemic declaration, for fear of inciting panic or prompting some countries to flag in their efforts, even though many epidemiologists believed the coronavirus had already spread to pandemic levels.
_
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/11/who-declares-pandemic-coronavirus-disease-covid-19/


----------



## bellenuit (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> However, if it were to change then it would also need to confer on the WHO additional powers and responsibilities, and these would necessarily override the powers of member nations. That's never going to happen as even within nations we have seen federal governments unable to dictate terms to their States who have their own legislative powers.




Additionally, on your second point.....

_The IHR also grants WHO the authority to take actions that can challenge how governments exercise sovereignty. First, the IHR authorizes WHO to collect disease-event information from non-governmental sources, seek verification from governments about such information, and, if necessary, share the information with other states. Second, the IHR grants the WHO director-general the power to declare a public health emergency of international concern, even if the state experiencing the outbreak objects. Third, the IHR gives WHO the authority to reinforce the requirement that a state party shall provide the scientific and public health justification for trade or travel restrictions that do not conform to WHO recommendations or accepted disease-control measures. Fourth, the IHR requires states parties to protect human rights when managing disease events—protections for which WHO, as a champion of a human-rights approach to health, is a leading guardian._

https://www.thinkglobalhealth.org/article/world-health-organization-and-pandemic-politics


----------



## rederob (12 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> WHO's powers to declare a pandemic are given to it by International Health Regulations (IHR). IHR is the leading international agreement on infectious diseases and other serious disease events adopted by WHO member states in 2005.
> View attachment 103399
> 
> 
> ...



Nice try but no cigar.
Neither the WHO nor it's IHR confer an official capacity to *declare *a pandemic.
The WHO can and does characterise some infections as pandemic in nature, and will make such announcements.
I suggest you use the IHR as the basis of your comments as I made my point clear about what journalism keeps getting wrong.


----------



## rederob (12 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Additionally, on your second point.....
> _The IHR also grants WHO the authority to take actions that can challenge how governments exercise sovereignty. _



That is false as the statement is wholly inconsistent with the charter of the United Nations.
The WHO can seek that Member States adhere to their obligations under the IHR, and make recommendations in the best interests of all parties.
As we have seen, nations continue to act as they see fit and the WHO is powerless to intervene.


----------



## bellenuit (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Nice try but no cigar.
> Neither the WHO nor it's IHR confer an official capacity to *declare *a pandemic.
> The WHO can and does characterise some infections as pandemic in nature, and will make such announcements.
> I suggest you use the IHR as the basis of your comments as I made my point clear about what journalism keeps getting wrong.




Are you blind or just stupid?


----------



## bellenuit (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> That is false as the statement is wholly inconsistent with the charter of the United Nations.
> The WHO can seek that Member States adhere to their obligations under the IHR, and make recommendations in the best interests of all parties.
> As we have seen, nations continue to act as they see fit and the WHO is powerless to intervene.




It would not matter in the slightest what powers the WHO are given. They do not have an army, so are powerless to intervene no matter what.


----------



## moXJO (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> That is false as the statement is wholly inconsistent with the charter of the United Nations.
> The WHO can seek that Member States adhere to their obligations under the IHR, and make recommendations in the best interests of all parties.
> As we have seen, nations continue to act as they see fit and the WHO is powerless to intervene.



You want to back your statement with something tangible?

So far you have used propaganda news as your source.


----------



## rederob (12 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Are you blind or just stupid?



You have relied on poor information.
If you had credible information it would be from the source, not third parties.
Your claims are incorrect.


bellenuit said:


> It would not matter in the slightest what powers the WHO are given. They do not have an army, so are powerless to intervene no matter what.



The WHO can act through the UN which has member states with armies.
The UN pays many nations to provide troops across the globe and can take offensive action should its members approve such a resolution.


----------



## moXJO (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> You have relied on poor information.
> If you had credible information it would be from the source, not third parties.
> Your claims are incorrect.
> The WHO can act through the UN which has member states with armies.
> The UN pays many nations to provide troops across the globe and can take offensive action should its members approve such a resolution.



WHO does not direct troops. 
Did you finally achieve brain meltdown?


----------



## rederob (12 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> You want to back your statement with something tangible?
> So far you have used propaganda news as your source.



Do yourself a favour and learn what the UN is about, because I use its source material as the basis of my comments.
For example, from its Charter:
*Article 2
The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.*

*The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.*



moXJO said:


> WHO does not direct troops.
> Did you finally achieve brain meltdown?



You are good at winning strawman arguments, but poor at comprehension.


----------



## moXJO (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Do yourself a favour and learn what the UN is about, because I use its source material as the basis of my comments.
> For example, from its Charter:
> *Article 2
> The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.*
> ...



The who can declare a pandemic.
The rest of your posts are off question rubbish.


----------



## rederob (12 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> The who can declare a pandemic.



The WHO does *not declare *pandemics as it has no practical effect.
The WHO can say they have assessed a disease to be characterised as pandemic, and this occurred:
*"The characterization of COVID-19 as a pandemic does not change WHO’s risk assessment and recommendations, which stress that countries should adopt a mix of interventions based on an analysis of the local situation and context, with containment as a major pillar.*"​
You will find on the WHO's timeline that it *declared *a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC).
The distinction is important as a *PHEIC declaration* triggers the public health response set out under the IHR.
The IHR mention "pandemic" only once, and that's to describe pandemic influenza.


----------



## satanoperca (12 May 2020)

So if WHO cannot, who can?


----------



## moXJO (12 May 2020)

Pandemic were recently changed by who. So yes they do actually call pandemics.



> Good afternoon.
> 
> In the past two weeks, the number of cases of COVID-19 outside China has increased 13-fold, and the number of affected countries has tripled.
> 
> ...



That's from WHO

https://www.who.int/dg/speeches/det...he-media-briefing-on-covid-19---11-march-2020


----------



## hja (12 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> Pandemic were recently changed by who. So yes they do actually call pandemics.
> 
> 
> That's from WHO
> ...



It looks like WHO is the who's who of pandemic declaration.


----------



## rederob (12 May 2020)

satanoperca said:


> So if WHO cannot, who can?



There is no internationally agreed definition of a *pandemic*, so if anyone thinks it meets their criteria, then they can call it one.
The WHO's assessment is highly regarded because they, as a representative body, have expertise in health matters. It is otherwise meaningless because they have a separate mechanism for initiating action on a public health emergency. 


moXJO said:


> Pandemic were recently changed by who. So yes they do actually call pandemics.



Really - the IHR has no role for actions on a pandemic, and they were written in 2005 and last revised 4 years ago.
As I said, the WHO can characterise a disease as pandemic, and make an announcement to that effect.  It is symbolic but otherwise ineffectual.


----------



## moXJO (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> There is no internationally agreed definition of a *pandemic*, so if anyone thinks it meets their criteria, then they can call it one.
> The WHO's assessment is highly regarded because they, as a representative body, have expertise in health matters. It is otherwise meaningless because they have a separate mechanism for initiating action on a public health emergency.
> Really - the IHR has no role for actions on a pandemic, and they were written in 2005 and last revised 4 years ago.
> As I said, the WHO can characterise a disease as pandemic, and make an announcement to that effect.  It is symbolic but otherwise ineffectual.



It doesn't matter if it's symbolic or not. They declared a pandemic, extremely late in the game mind you. But they called it. It was then widely covered from multiple news sources around the world that "WHO declared a pandemic". So no it's not really ineffectual.

You just move the posts when you get caught talking rubbish and side track down a lane no one asked you to go.

Can and did WHO call a pandemic:
Yes they can and did.


----------



## rederob (12 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> It doesn't matter if it's symbolic or not. They declared a pandemic, extremely late in the game mind you. But they called it. It was then widely covered from multiple news sources around the world that "WHO declared a pandemic". So no it's not really ineffectual.
> 
> You just move the posts when you get caught talking rubbish and side track down a lane no one asked you to go.
> 
> ...



If what you are saying is credible then the WHO characterisation of the virus as pandemic must have some effect.
Please outline what this achieved.

I repeat, neither you nor those you are relying on know what they are talking about in relation to this issue.
Your third party proclamations are factually baseless.
Unless you can cite from the source, which is the WHO and its IHR, you are just living in your own fantasies.


----------



## hja (12 May 2020)

Proclamations can, could and may, in effect, be declared as declarations. So effectively, by WHO proclaiming its position on pandemics, is a declaration in its own right, whether as a third party or otherwise.


----------



## moXJO (12 May 2020)

rederob said:


> If what you are saying is credible then the WHO characterisation of the virus as pandemic must have some effect.
> Please outline what this achieved.
> 
> I repeat, neither you nor those you are relying on know what they are talking about in relation to this issue.
> ...



You do know what "pandemic" means right?


----------



## sptrawler (13 May 2020)

This highlights the problem with not having the ability to produce our own testing equipment.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...2-p54s2v.html?js-chunk-not-found-refresh=true
From the article:
_Official scientific advice given to the federal government says that the 1.5 million COVID-19 fingerprick antibody tests it bought are not accurate enough to be of any use.

The federal government initially said the tests, which were supposed to be able to quickly tell if someone had recovered from COVID-19, would arrive in the country in late March and be rapidly rolled out to GP clinics.
The federal government did not reveal which companies it bought the tests from.


The British government is looking for a $20 million refund from two companies who sell antibody tests approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration after their tests were found to be useless.

“The reality is, at the moment, they are not useful,” said Professor Carola Vinuesa, one of the authors of the government report and co-director of the NHMRC Centre for Personalised Immunology at the Australian National University.
“At the moment, the quality does not seem to be good enough for these tests to be deployed in large scale.”

"The sensitivity is not very good. They are not useful in being able to say 'you were infected'."


Professor Vinuesa said no test currently developed was accurate enough to reliably detect antibodies.

“Most individual results will be false positives,” she said. “You cannot have most positive results being false.”

A spokesman later said the government ended up buying only 1 million tests, after a third supply contract was cancelled.

Professor Mueller’s team is currently trying to make their own accurate antibody test – a process which is proving difficult.

Because only a tiny proportion of Australians are likely to have been exposed to the virus, even a small level of inaccuracy – say 5 per cent – would throw up thousands of false-positive results_.


----------



## rederob (13 May 2020)

hja said:


> Proclamations can, could and may, in effect, be declared as declarations. So effectively, by WHO proclaiming its position on pandemics, is a declaration in its own right, whether as a third party or otherwise.



No, when the WHO makes a declaration it has a *specific meaning and effect *in the context of its charter, and it is completely different to describing the characteristic of a virus, such as *announcing *its genetic structure.
Nations could and did act on the potential of COV19 to become pandemic even before the WHO declared it as a PHEIC in January, by implementing travel bans.
The question people here are overlooking is "what changed?"


----------



## hja (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> No, when the WHO makes a declaration it has a *specific meaning and effect *in the context of its charter, and it is completely different to describing the characteristic of a virus, such as *announcing *its genetic structure.
> Nations could and did act on the potential of COV19 to become pandemic even before the WHO declared it as a PHEIC in January, by implementing travel bans.
> The question people here are overlooking is "what changed?"



Yeah well kudos to you for your interpretation based on your perception.

But you should've heard the local Chinese ambassador's "declarations" over China's supposed job creation in Australia for example, or reactions to "pandemic" inquiries. He isn't very creative either on the defensive back foot with his "proclamations" which are dangerous... to China's prestige.


----------



## rederob (13 May 2020)

hja said:


> Yeah well kudos to you for your interpretation based on your perception.
> 
> But you should've heard the local Chinese ambassador's "declarations" over China's supposed job creation in Australia for example, or reactions to "pandemic" inquiries. He isn't very creative either on the defensive back foot with his "proclamations" which are dangerous... to China's prestige.



If you don't know what words mean then don't use them.
Our PM is a policy free zone, and has no capacity to understand the damage his idiot ideas do to our principal trading partner, which is now retaliating.
So if you want to appreciate what is dangerous, look at poor diplomacy as a starting point.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Our PM is a policy free zone, and has no capacity to understand the damage his idiot ideas do to our principal trading partner, which is now retaliating.




What damage is that ?

I don't believe our PM even referred to China when calling for an enquiry, an action which is backed by the Opposition.


----------



## hja (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> If you don't know what words mean then don't use them.
> Our PM is a policy free zone, and has no capacity to understand the damage his idiot ideas do to our principal trading partner, which is now retaliating.
> So if you want to appreciate what is dangerous, look at poor diplomacy as a starting point.



If you want idiot ideas, you don't have to go further than your Chinese Ambassador, Cheng, Chung...

It's a 2-way street. China needs Australian beef as much as we need their trinkets. I doubt the Chinese people are prepared to go back to drinking melamine in their milk.

But thanks again for your your version of "meaning".


----------



## sptrawler (13 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> What damage is that ?
> 
> I don't believe our PM even referred to China when calling for an enquiry, an action which is backed by the Opposition.



For all we know Rob could well be Chinese, which would explain his extraordinary stance, on not wanting to find out as much as possible about the outbreak. It seems a bit pointless going around in circles, it will become more and more obvious an investigation is required, as the carnage increases.
It would be remiss of Governments to just say, "oh well, I hope that doesn't happen again", the root cause needs identifying to develop procedures to reduce the chances a repeat event.
It will be self resolving, China is admitting culpability by its avoidance of an investigation, they have had a lot of deaths therefore an investigation would obviously be to their advantage.
Unless they already know the outcome.


----------



## sptrawler (13 May 2020)

A good article on the virus from the ABC, with graphs and explanations, the incredible spread rate certainly puts paid to the theory the virus started in July last year.
From post#1673:
_On June 30, 2019, way before the outbreak in Wuhan, a “respiratory outbreak” occurred in Greenspring Retirement Community in Springfield, Virginia. Fifty-four old folks became ill with "respiratory symptoms ranging from upper respiratory symptoms (cough) to pneumonia" with symptoms of "fever, cough, body aches, wheezing, hoarseness and general weakness." It was assumed that this was the “usual” illness despite Benjamin Schwartz, a health department director, stating that "Seeing a respiratory outbreak in a long-term care facility is not odd [but] one thing that's different about this outbreak is just that it's occurring in the summer when, usually, we don't have a lot of respiratory disease._"
 If it had started in July, by Christmas the world would have been in lockdown.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...-worldwide-data-tracking-charts/12107500?nw=0


----------



## moXJO (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> .
> The question people here are overlooking is "what changed?"



That has nothing to do with the fact that WHO declared a pandemic.
It was declared, it was reported as declared:
https://www.abc.net.au › programs
WHO officially declares COVID-19 a pandemic - RN Breakfast - ABC Radio National




	

		
			
		

		
	
https://time.com › Health › COVID-19
The WHO Just Declared Coronavirus COVID-19 a Pandemic | Time




	

		
			
		

		
	
https://www.livescience.com › c...
*Web results*
Coronavirus outbreak officially declared a pandemic, WHO says - Live Science




	

		
			
		

		
	
https://www.theguardian.com › ...
WHO declares coronavirus pandemic | World news | The Guardian


Because WHO  declared a pandemic was taking place.
It doesn't need a hidden meaning or to do anything other to officially recognize the situation.


----------



## rederob (13 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> What damage is that ?



It's reputational damage leading to retaliatory actions which have been well reported over many weeks.


SirRumpole said:


> I don't believe our PM even referred to China when calling for an enquiry, an action which is backed by the Opposition.



Fine, let's inquire as to why nations failed to take the action outlined by the WHO in relation to COV19.  
Let's inquire about deaths caused by other nations not taking COV19 as seriously as China did when they locked down Wuhan.
Let's inquire as to what is necessary to be done to be done to ensure PPE is available globally for the next event.
Let's inquire into vaccine development.
Let's inquire into nations failing to contribute to the WHO in order to minimise disease spread gloabally and reduce deaths.
Let's inquire into the lab leaks at Fort Detrick which may be responsible given a New Jersey city Mayor believes he may have suffered from COV19 in November.
Let's see which other countries apart from France had COV-19 patients hospitalised, before Wuhan had confirmed their finding of this virus.
There are lots of things that can be looked into, but the focus has been on a China blame game, as none of the above points ever get a mention from our PM.
China has already said it is open to the WHO looking more closely into all the events to date, but is clear that aspects of science relating to COV19 are complex and an inquiry in that regard should remain ongoing within the scientific community.  This is exemplified by an independent team already determining that COV19 may have been in communities as early as October last year.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> It's reputational damage leading to retaliatory actions which have been well reported over many weeks.
> Fine, let's inquire as to why nations failed to take the action outlined by the WHO in relation to COV19.
> Let's inquire about deaths caused by other nations not taking COV19 as seriously as China did when they locked down Wuhan.
> Let's inquire as to what is necessary to be done to be done to ensure PPE is available globally for the next event.
> ...




Sure, do all that, not a problem.


----------



## moXJO (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Let's inquire into the lab leaks at Fort Detrick which may be responsible given a New Jersey city Mayor believes he may have suffered from COV19 in November.
> Let's see which other countries apart from France had COV-19 patients hospitalised, before Wuhan had confirmed their finding of this virus.



Did you just quote two propaganda theories that the CCP has been pushing. 
And after accusing other people of conspiracy theories and that it "Was absolutely and could in no way be a lab leak"

Well done Robbie....
Well done.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (13 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> Well done Robbie....
> Well done.



*RED*erob


----------



## rederob (13 May 2020)

hja said:


> If you want idiot ideas, you don't have to go further than your Chinese Ambassador, Cheng, Chung...
> 
> It's a 2-way street. China needs Australian beef as much as we need their trinkets. I doubt the Chinese people are prepared to go back to drinking melamine in their milk.
> 
> But thanks again for your your version of "meaning".



I am not Chinese.
The Ambassador responded to a ridiculous idea that the origin of the virus should be investigated.  The origin is bats.  But our idiot politicians are clueless on science, and this is a matter that warrants scientific inquiry rather than "investigation": it's a zoonotic virus and the intermediate species may never be discovered.  That said, there are already hundreds of scientific papers on the matter, and thousands more will be coming.
Next, China can buy beef from many other countries: the USA and Brazil will be happy to fill the void.
Next, if you or anyone else is buying Chinese trinkets, that's a practice easily changed.
Finally, Chinese people never knowingly eat contaminated food, so you should try to post rationally in future.



sptrawler said:


> For all we know Rob could well be Chinese, which would explain his extraordinary stance, on not wanting to find out as much as possible about the outbreak.



I keep asking what more can be found that we do not already know.
I have several times already addressed the issue of virus "origin" and reiterated that point above.  If you don't understand what's at issue, do some research.
With regard to what needs to be investigated, I have outlined some points above.


sptrawler said:


> It will be self resolving, China is admitting culpability by its avoidance of an investigation....



This is a rubbish claim.  Read what China is happy to do as they welcome further involvement via the WHO.


----------



## sptrawler (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> I keep asking what more can be found that we do not already know.
> I have several times already addressed the issue of virus "origin" and reiterated that point above.  If you don't understand what's at issue, do some research.
> With regard to what needs to be investigated, I have outlined some points above.
> This is a rubbish claim.  Read what China is happy to do as they welcome further involvement via the WHO.



If it originated at a place where animals are bred for sale at the 'wet markets', then the farming procedures a holding enclosures probably need improving.

If it came from a 'wet market', procedures need to be put in place, to minimise the chance of cross contamination.

If it was accidentally released from a lab, procedures and or security needs to be audited, to ensure the chance of a similar occurrence happening is reduced.

If it happened by accident, when someone tripped over in the forest and got a face full of bat, well there isn't much anyone can do about it.


----------



## rederob (13 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If it originated at a place where animals are bred for sale at the 'wet markets', then the farming procedures a holding enclosures probably need improving.
> 
> If it came from a 'wet market', procedures need to be put in place, to minimise the chance of cross contamination.
> 
> ...



No competent virologists believe the wet markets had anything to do with it - just the media nowadays.
Just as most virologists are confident another deadly virus will happen again into the future.
This event was always a matter of "*when*", not "*if*."
And the same applies into the future.


----------



## sptrawler (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> No competent virologists believe the wet markets had anything to do with it - just the media nowadays.
> Just as most virologists are confident another deadly virus will happen again into the future.
> This event was always a matter of "*when*", not "*if*."
> And the same applies into the future.



Well then an investigation should be given the go ahead, to give everyone peace of mind, the more they fight it the more it looks as if there is something to hide. Simple really.
It is like the weapons of mass destruction, when it was investigated it was shown, there in all probability never was any. 
What is the difference with this virus, if it is just an accident of nature, then there isn't a problem, let it be shown.


----------



## hja (13 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> *RED*erob



Red ensign rob


----------



## hja (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> I am not Chinese.
> The Ambassador responded to a ridiculous idea that the origin of the virus should be investigated.  The origin is bats.  But our idiot politicians are clueless on science, and this is a matter that warrants scientific inquiry rather than "investigation": it's a zoonotic virus and the intermediate species may never be discovered.  That said, there are already hundreds of scientific papers on the matter, and thousands more will be coming.
> Next, China can buy beef from many other countries: the USA and Brazil will be happy to fill the void.
> Next, if you or anyone else is buying Chinese trinkets, that's a practice easily changed.
> ...



Are you sure you're not Chinese? It would appear you have a job with the Chinese government and it would be most unusual for a non-Chinese working for it.

That's the least of the ambassador's propaganda... how is it ridiculous to want to know the origin of the virus for future and community safety?

His very own ridiculous "fake news" responses and the denial of Uyghur brainwashing, torture and persecution, all ad nauseam are at the pointy end of the chop stick.

Nah, they wouldn't have been so reliant on coal and other resources if they had better options... oh yeah try using the term "opinion" in your self-declared facts.
You don't know the origin of the virus; that's your declarative proclamation. Are you sure you're not Chinese or work for the China government?


----------



## dutchie (13 May 2020)

*Opportunistic Chinese buyers rush to exploit plunging Australian house prices during the coronavirus pandemic*
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rty-market-bargains-coronavirus-pandemic.html

The China Virus was caused by them and now they are exploiting our economic problems.
Almost as if they did it on purpose to exploit the world. Bast@rds
We should not let them do this. Ban China from buying *anything.*


----------



## dutchie (13 May 2020)

hja said:


> Are you sure you're not Chinese? It would appear you have a job with the Chinese government and it would be most unusual for a non-Chinese working for it.
> Are you sure you're not Chinese or work for the China government?



I'm sure that he/she is/does.


----------



## rederob (13 May 2020)

hja said:


> That's the least of the ambassador's propaganda... how is it ridiculous to want to know the origin of the virus for future and community safety?



We know the origin - bats.
We don't know the intermediate species, but that's why there is this international industry called *science*.
China happens to have some of the best scientists in the world, plus advanced research facilities, so along with other interested nations and organisations they won't have any concerns about progressing a scientific agenda in the manner they have for decades.  For example, in 2014, the National Institutes of Health approved a grant to EcoHealth Alliance designated for research into “Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence.”  The project involved collaborating with researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology to study coronaviruses in bats and the risk of potential transfer to humans.  Trump's administration approved further funding of the NIH's projects.
Please go and do some reading about viruses to understand why the idea of an "investigation" into the origin is a silly idea.
What needs to be investigated is a how the next global response will occur so that spread and death will be minimised. 
That involves reviewing what went wrong this time, and addressing those shortfalls.


----------



## hja (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> We know the origin - bats.






rederob said:


> We know the origin - bats.
> We don't know the intermediate species, but that's why there is this international industry called *science*.
> China happens to have some of the best scientists in the world, plus advanced research facilities, so along with other interested nations and organisations they won't have any concerns about progressing a scientific agenda in the manner they have for decades.  For example, in 2014, the National Institutes of Health approved a grant to EcoHealth Alliance designated for research into “Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence.”  The project involved collaborating with researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology to study coronaviruses in bats and the risk of potential transfer to humans.  Trump's administration approved further funding of the NIH's projects.
> Please go and do some reading about viruses to understand why the idea of an "investigation" into the origin is a silly idea.
> ...



So what's the problem in letting outsiders investigate INDEPENDENTLY the context how it originated? What's China hiding to have to use their self-promoted/proclaimed, UNTOUCHABLE organisations and scientists as a front and smoke screen ad nauseam? Please consider how obscure and silly your narrow view is.


----------



## rederob (13 May 2020)

hja said:


> So what's the problem in letting outsiders investigate INDEPENDENTLY the context how it originated? What's China hiding to have to use their self-promoted/proclaimed, UNTOUCHABLE organisations and scientists as a front and smoke screen ad nauseam? Please consider how obscure and silly your narrow view is.



Have you understood anything in this thread?
The Spanish flu occurred over 100 years ago and we never knew its origin.
SARS-CoV was discovered 17 years ago and we still don't know its origin.
You somehow think China would not want to discover COV19's origin through scientific endeavour, and have no rational basis for your idea.
China has expressed a willingness to work with the WHO on an appropriate agenda.
Rather than inflict your bile into posts, apply some common sense.
Common sense tells us that viruses have no boundaries.
Common sense tells us to be prepared.
Common sense tells us never to blame victims.


----------



## hja (13 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Have you understood anything in this thread?
> China has expressed a willingness to work with the WHO on an appropriate agenda.
> Ratheoared
> sts, apply some common sense.
> ...



Again with your big bold statements.
Appropriate agenda -- whatever that means. That's meaningless like the rest of your gibberish.

The agenda is China is in cahoots with WHO.


rederob said:


> *China would not want outsiders to discover COV19's origin through scientific endeavour*



Fixed.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2020)

rederob said:


> The Spanish flu occurred over 100 years ago and we never knew its origin.




Science has come a long way in a 100 years.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 May 2020)

rederob said:


> No competent virologists believe the wet markets had anything to do with it - just the media nowadays.



Agreed - it was the Chinese authorities which started that one however.

Started out claiming it was pangolins then realised that wasn't really plausible so changed it to bats or possibly US soldiers. It's the comedy show attempts at explaining it which arouses suspicions.

If someone strongly opposes an investigation, into anything, then that's a pretty sure indication that they've got something to hide. 

As for the bigger picture, well I don't recall the exact timing but financial commentators were noting "rising nationalism" years ago long before most Australians had ever heard of Wuhan. The sentiment has been rising for a very long time, fueled by all sorts of things individually minor but collectively major. This pandemic's just another log on the bonfire really. A big one sure, but the fire was already well and truly burning quite some time ago.


----------



## rederob (14 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed - it was the Chinese authorities which started that one however.
> Started out claiming it was pangolins then realised that wasn't really plausible so changed it to bats or possibly US soldiers. It's the comedy show attempts at explaining it which arouses suspicions.



It was based on early science reported in the media, *not *Chinese authorities.
You are just paraphrasing a lot of junk from the media with your views rather than the efforts being made by the global science community.  These are these types of views that are fuelling what would be a useless attempt to "investigate" the origin of the virus.  It's useless because this has been an ongoing endeavour from the global science community to *research *its origins,  and will continue to be. 
In simple terms the graphic below depicts the problem that scientists are dealing with:







"*China*" does not appear in this graphic.


----------



## moXJO (14 May 2020)

rederob said:


> It was based on early science reported in the media, *not *Chinese authorities.
> You are just paraphrasing a lot of junk from the media with your views rather than the efforts being made by the global science community.  These are these types of views that are fuelling what would be a useless attempt to "investigate" the origin of the virus.  It's useless because this has been an ongoing endeavour from the global science community to *research *its origins,  and will continue to be.
> In simple terms the graphic below depicts the problem that scientists are dealing with:
> 
> ...



So what's the official CCP line now?
That it originated in a US lab or retirement home?


----------



## chiff (14 May 2020)

The first report of Spanish flu was from a US army base in Kansas.From there troops brought it to Europe during WW1.The veracity of this I do not know,but it is reported as likely true on the the BBC.Of course we all know why they called it the Spanish flu-because the Spanish royal family were infected.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (14 May 2020)

chiff said:


> The first report of Spanish flu was from a US army base in Kansas.From there troops brought it to Europe during WW1.The veracity of this I do not know,but it is reported as likely true on the the BBC.Of course we all know why they called it the Spanish flu-because the Spanish royal family were infected.



or, alternatively, Spain was neutral during WW1 and had no censorship. The 'flu was racing through Europe but, bad for morale and all that, was not mentioned by the combatants. Then, armistice and demobilisation, and what do you get!


----------



## moXJO (14 May 2020)

chiff said:


> The first report of Spanish flu was from a US army base in Kansas.From there troops brought it to Europe during WW1.The veracity of this I do not know,but it is reported as likely true on the the BBC.Of course we all know why they called it the Spanish flu-because the Spanish royal family were infected.



Not entirely true.

Bit of an interesting read here. I wonder if they managed to find any clues?

https://www.statnews.com/2018/12/05/1918-spanish-flu-unraveling-mystery/


----------



## moXJO (14 May 2020)

Actually here's the paper:
https://academic.oup.com/emph/article/2019/1/18/5298310

Rob won't be happy. China pops up in one of the theories.


----------



## rederob (14 May 2020)

chiff said:


> The first report of Spanish flu was from a US army base in Kansas.From there troops brought it to Europe during WW1.The veracity of this I do not know,but it is reported as likely true on the the BBC.Of course we all know why they called it the Spanish flu-because the Spanish royal family were infected.



Why aren't we seeking an investigation?
Millions of people died.
Same with HIV AIDS - millions dead and more dying every day.  We need an investigation....
Oh, they didn't start in China.
My bad.


----------



## kahuna1 (14 May 2020)

*Trump and the coronavirus task force is pushing the CDC to change its methodology for how they count coronavirus deaths, which could lead to far fewer deaths being counted than originally reported*. The Trump administration specifically wants the agency to change how it works with states to count coronavirus-related deaths. Dr. Deborah Birx has reportedly urged CDC officials to exclude from coronavirus death-count reporting for individuals who either did not have confirmed lab results and are presumed positive or who had the virus and may not have died as a direct result of COVID-19. Trump has suggested that coronavirus deaths could have been incorrectly tallied or inflated by current methodology. Dr. Anthony Fauci, however, said the U.S. death toll count is likely higher than is reflected in government data. Meanwhile, researchers have developed a new method to compare and merge coronavirus models into a single “ensemble” projection. The result? 110,000 dead Americans by June 6. Total U.S. deaths currently stand at ~84,000. (Daily Beast / NPR / Washington Post)


Dr Fauci is out ... and religious far right Dr Birx is in !! Hmmm .... whom do you prefer ?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Why aren't we seeking an investigation?
> Millions of people died.
> Same with HIV AIDS - millions dead and more dying every day.  We need an investigation....
> Oh, they didn't start in China.
> My bad.



A Virologist mate of mine who has been a tippler at The Ross Island public bar before it was shut tells me that the appearance of Covid under a microscope tells him it is impossible that it came from a laboratory but rather from an animal as did HIV. 

gg


----------



## bellenuit (14 May 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> it is impossible that it came from a laboratory but rather from an animal ...




They are not mutually exclusive. Where do you think testing and analysis of animal originating viruses take place?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> They are not mutually exclusive. Where do you think testing and analysis of animal originating viruses take place?



Find a mate who is a virologist and ask her. 

You can tell the difference if you are trained in that field. She had an interesting conversation one night with ole Fauci, and he said the same. He has said it in public. Google it. 

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Oh, they didn't start in China.




No, it doesn't kill hundreds of thousands or close down economies and it's avoidable.


----------



## moXJO (14 May 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Find a mate who is a virologist and ask her.
> 
> You can tell the difference if you are trained in that field. She had an interesting conversation one night with ole Fauci, and he said the same. He has said it in public. Google it.
> 
> gg



That was the mainstream theory. Seems to be a bit of pushback on that.


----------



## rederob (14 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> No, it doesn't kill hundreds of thousands or close down economies and it's avoidable.



You are right: HIV AIDS has so far killed more people than the total of Australia and New Zealand's population, so we are talking *tens of millions*.
This year it will kill more people than COV19.

We have never caught COV19, so it too must be avoidable  .
Just like malaria is avoidable.


----------



## basilio (14 May 2020)

Why kids are getting antsy about going to school.


----------



## basilio (14 May 2020)

Excellent  PPE and social distancing strategy.


----------



## bellenuit (14 May 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Find a mate who is a virologist and ask her.
> 
> You can tell the difference if you are trained in that field. She had an interesting conversation one night with ole Fauci, and he said the same. He has said it in public. Google it.
> 
> gg




What Fauci said in public was that it was not *made* in a lab. He doesn't think it was brought into a lab and escaped from there either, but he has no evidence to support that belief and it certainly is not an impossibility as you originally asserted.


----------



## rederob (14 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> What Fauci said in public was that it was not *made* in a lab. He doesn't think it was brought into a lab and escaped from there either, but he has no evidence to support that belief and it certainly is not an impossibility as you originally asserted.



Do you have a website for your baseless conspiracy theories?
At least we know there were major concerns at Fort Detrick's labs, so that's a very plausible lab leak theory.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> What Fauci said in public was that it was not *made* in a lab. He doesn't think it was brought into a lab and escaped from there either, but he has no evidence to support that belief and it certainly is not an impossibility as you originally asserted.



That is as clear as mud.

gg


----------



## bellenuit (14 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Do you have a website for your baseless conspiracy theories?
> At least we know there were major concerns at Fort Detrick's labs, so that's a very plausible lab leak theory.




Don’t be permanently stupid. That is not a conspiracy theory. It makes no claim whatsoever about the origin of COVID-19. It is a factual statement that it is not impossible for the virus, any virus, that originated in animals to subsequently escape from a lab if it was been tested and analysed there. Read the conversation that went before. You have just confirmed the validity of what I said by your comment on Fort Detrick’s labs.


----------



## rederob (14 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Don’t be permanently stupid. That is not a conspiracy theory. It makes no claim whatsoever about the origin of COVID-19. It is a factual statement that it is not impossible for the virus, any virus, that originated in animals to subsequently escape from a lab if it was been tested and analysed there. Read the conversation that went before. You have just confirmed the validity of what I said by your comment on Fort Detrick’s labs.



?
Which is it?
It could not escape, or otherwise?


----------



## moXJO (14 May 2020)

rederob said:


> ?
> Which is it?
> It could not escape, or otherwise?



What happened with SARS?
Track record is a pretty good indicator.

Botao Xiao and Lei Xiao wrote a paper that China quickly censored.
Bit more on it here:
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...ame-wuhan-labs-allegedly-removed-internet.htm

The lab according to cell phone data was shutdown in October.

Inserted sequence of nucleotides in the RNA 
strand could not be a mutation.

So it's slowly developing.


----------



## bellenuit (14 May 2020)

rederob said:


> ?
> Which is it?
> It could not escape, or otherwise?




There is no ambiguity in my statement. Are you having a problem with English?


----------



## hja (14 May 2020)

basilio said:


> Excellent  PPE and social distancing strategy.
> 
> View attachment 103465



The virus is not sexually transmissible from what I understand. But the subject would need to be more attractive for the possibility arise! Just don't get that PPE punctured before/in case of orifical insertion!


----------



## rederob (15 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> There is no ambiguity in my statement. Are you having a problem with English?



The problem with you idea is that it is a just one link in a highly implausible chain of events best described as a grand conspiracy theory.
It implies these things of the Chinese:

they knew the intermediate host - in which case the Chinese would be out there killing it off, and nobody is aware this to be so
they had isolated the virus - in which case they have hidden this knowledge.  Again unlikely as these are scientific breakthroughs and the lab receives part funding from the USA to publish its coronavirus research
the virus, in its static form, jumped onto a lab worker's pressurised suit
the virus then magically penetrated the lab worker's pressurised suit
despite not being transmissible as an aerosol, it somehow worked its way into either the mouth, nose or eyes of the lab worker
the lab worker then unwittingly infected other people, but nobody associated with the lab.
The idea the virus "escaped" from a laboratory carries zero credibility.  It is transmissible in droplet form, would be a static sample within the lab, and therefore unable to "spread."

So you are not really advancing a lab escape "theory."
You are advancing a conspiracy on a grand scale that involves multiple levels of improbability and security breaches.
I have kept several shillings the tooth fairy left me, so there must be a tooth fairy.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 May 2020)

Some good info here.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...-cov-2--science-gene-cluster-control/12229292


----------



## qldfrog (15 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Some good info here.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...-cov-2--science-gene-cluster-control/12229292



I note we so can discard poor pangolin and have no clue on how it went from bat to human.
the fact Huwan lab was playing with viruses (initially extracted from bats) still not really discussed openly in the media.


----------



## rederob (15 May 2020)

qldfrog said:


> the fact Huwan lab was playing with viruses (initially extracted from bats) still not really discussed openly in the media.



Why would it be discussed in the media
These are matters of science.
There are thousands or research papers on viruses.  Here's a 2018 paper from the team at Wuhan Institute of Virology showing their studies of bats have been ongoing since 2011.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2020)

rederob said:


> The problem with you idea is that it is a just one link in a highly implausible chain of events best described as a grand conspiracy theory.
> It implies these things of the Chinese:
> 
> they knew the intermediate host - in which case the Chinese would be out there killing it off, and nobody is aware this to be so
> ...



Once again.... SARS escaped despite all of those measures.


----------



## rederob (15 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> Once again.... SARS escaped despite all of those measures.



Your lack of logic and evidence for claims is a consistent theme.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Your lack of logic and evidence for claims is a consistent theme.



Nah....
You ever get sick of being wrong

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...ysis/sars-escaped-beijing-lab-twice-50137/amp

Hey hook me up with shilling for the CCP. I'd be great at propaganda and could make China look like world saviors. You current suck at shilling.
I propose we start a business, how about "Team red" or "Shill you long time" (is that a racist micro aggression?). I reckon it's a winner.


----------



## basilio (15 May 2020)

*Theory that Coronavirus Escaped from a Lab Lacks Evidence*

*The pathogen appears to have come from wild animals, virologists say, and there are no signs of genetic manipulation in the SARS-CoV-2 genome.*
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...virus-escaped-from-a-lab-lacks-evidence-67229


----------



## bellenuit (15 May 2020)

rederob said:


> The problem with you idea is that it is a just one link in a highly implausible chain of events best described as a grand conspiracy theory.




You have really reached the realms of stupidity. What an overblown pointless response to something you still have not yet grasped.

My statement was not a claim or theory that COVID-19 escaped from a lab. In fact all evidence suggests it didn't and unless I read anything concrete that says otherwise, that is my position too.

My statement was in response to the OP on this current sub-topic making the assertion that it was impossible for it to have come from a lab. That is a false assertion. It is possible and that is all I stated. It seems you don't understand simple logic, or the difference between the words probable and possible.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2020)

basilio said:


> *Theory that Coronavirus Escaped from a Lab Lacks Evidence*
> 
> *The pathogen appears to have come from wild animals, virologists say, and there are no signs of genetic manipulation in the SARS-CoV-2 genome.*
> https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...virus-escaped-from-a-lab-lacks-evidence-67229



There is a great conversation occurring in the comments on this page among some virologists.
There claim is RaTG13 isn't real and was fabricated. Which apparently explains why it appears to be natural.

Great story if it has any merit. And that's the problem, it could all be b.s..
https://nerdhaspower.weebly.com/blo...at-the-wuhan-coronavirus-is-man-made#comments

One comment


> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420302622
> There is a smoking gun indication that the virus have been passaged through VERO E6 BEFORE the insertion of a polybasic furin cleavage site.
> These scientists, in order to assay the binding affinity of the S1 RBD portion of SARs-COV-2, constructed pseudoviruses with the SARS-COV-2 with the furin site removed. Termed S fur/mut. What they found is that such a spike enters VERO E6 cells nearly one and a half times more efficiently than BHK cells that expresses the hACE2 receptor. The SARS-COV-2 S with the furin site removed also enters VERO E6 More than one and a half times efficiently than the original SARS-COV Spike.
> This mean that the S RBD of SARS-COV-2 binds the ACE2 of VERO E6 more than 1.5 times more efficiently than hACE2, 1.5 times more efficiently than the SARS-COV RBD could on the same cells.
> ...




Nothing peer reviewed from my knowledge. But some interesting detective work. They also discuss why it's not more mainstream.

I honestly don't know one way or the other. And I'd need to see some more acceptable proof then some comments on a blog. Interesting though.


----------



## rederob (15 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> You have really reached the realms of stupidity. What an overblown pointless response to something you still have not yet grasped.
> 
> My statement was not a claim or theory that COVID-19 escaped from a lab. In fact all evidence suggests it didn't and unless I read anything concrete that says otherwise, that is my position too.
> 
> My statement was in response to the OP on this current sub-topic making the assertion that it was impossible for it to have come from a lab. That is a false assertion. It is possible and that is all I stated. It seems you don't understand simple logic, or the difference between the words probable and possible.



*It is impossible to have come from a lab based on what we know.*
At least 5 prior conditions needed to be met, sequentially, for the chance to have arisen.
*Not one is known to have occurred*, and 2 of the conditions are actually impossible based on principles of physics.
It was as likely to have been the tooth fairy.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (15 May 2020)

yawn

did you know this site was built by a 17 year old in his spare time

https://ncov2019.live/

30 million hits a day. He doesn't allow ads, but there's a link to buy a coffee, to help pay for it


> Avi Schiffmann’s coronavirus tracker is a one-stop shop for all the information about COVID-19 the average person might want to know. It constantly updates with statistics for countries around the world on infections, deaths, recoveries, and rates of change using data scraped from the WHO, CDC, and other government websites. The site often offers new features, like the new survival rate calculator. It also has infections broken down on a map, and pages with some basic information about the virus, including tips for hand hygiene and a list of symptoms.





> Although Schiffmann is proud of the work he’s done, he doesn’t want to become a model for how to make a name for one’s self during a pandemic. “In the future, I hope pressure is on the WHO” to make a tool like this, he said, “The responsibility shouldn’t be on some random kid, but it’s obvious that people want to know the statistics.”


----------



## rederob (15 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> Nah....
> You ever get sick of being wrong



Completely different circumstances so your point was an irrelevance.


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Completely different circumstances so your point was an irrelevance.



The only point of relevance is Rob's, anyone else's point has no relevance.
The only links to relevant posts, is Rob's, everyone else's posts are not from an acceptable source, only Rob's post's are from accurate source's.
If anyone disputes Rob's post's and proves them wrong, Rob has the right to change the debate and ignore previous information.
Wedewob's world.
Fiwst I lost the z on the compute% then the question mask, now the ah.


----------



## satanoperca (15 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The only point of relevance is Rob's, anyone else's point has no relevance.
> The only links to relevant posts, is Rob's, everyone else's posts are not from an acceptable source, only Rob's post's are from accurate source's.
> If anyone disputes Rob's post's and proves them wrong, Rob has the right to change the debate and ignore previous information.
> Wedewob's world.
> Fiwst I lost the z on the compute% then the question mask, now the ah.




Glad you finally worked it out, Redrob is always right, just like the CCP, confuse, evade and never negotiate or discuss.

Shame really, as posters just leave the thread, one b..d apple can ...


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Glad you finally worked it out, Redrob is always right, just like the CCP, confuse, evade and never negotiate or discuss.
> 
> Shame really, as posters just leave the thread, one b..d apple can ...



I gave up on Rob about 12 months ago, I have only recently taken him off the ignore function, it seems it is still the same $hit on a different day.
I'm not saying Rob hasn't got some great input, it is just he ignores other posters great input, if it conflicts with his.
So discussing anything with him becomes two posts, your opinion, his opinion and then either you agree with his or else.
Rob's way or the highway, you can see why he was a speech writer for a second rate political platform.
Don't let one awkward poster make you leave the forum, just use the ignore function, it works a treat.


----------



## bellenuit (15 May 2020)

rederob said:


> *It is impossible to have come from a lab based on what we know.*
> At least 5 prior conditions needed to be met, sequentially, for the chance to have arisen.
> *Not one is known to have occurred*, and 2 of the conditions are actually impossible based on principles of physics.
> It was as likely to have been the tooth fairy.




Again you fail to understand what you are saying. It is possible that it could have escaped from a lab. Possible, but not probable. Do you remember who said this just a few posts back.



			
				rederob said:
			
		

> At least we know there were major concerns at Fort Detrick's labs, so that's a very plausible lab leak theory.




So what you are saying is impossible appears to be plausible so long as the leak is not related to China. I have not asserted that it was China, just that it is possible for such a leak to happen.


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Again you fail to understand what you are saying. It is possible that it could have escaped from a lab. Possible, but not probable. Do you remember who said this just a few posts back.
> 
> 
> 
> So what you are saying is impossible appears to be plausible so long as the leak is not related to China. I have not asserted that it was China, just that it is possible for such a leak to happen.



To my limited knowledge, the fact that in all probability the virus originated in Wuhan and there is a biological test lab there, where they seem to have been researching bat viruses kind of says hey did we drop the ball.
Possibly not but I wouldn't want my balls hanging on it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 May 2020)

rederob said:


> It was based on early science reported in the media, *not *Chinese authorities.




To my knowledge the claim originates from the South China Agricultural University and was announced at press conference on 7 February 2020.

That is not the Chinese government I will concede, in the same way as the CSIRO is not the Australian Government and a state police force is not the state government as such. They are however agencies of it as is a public university in China.



rederob said:


> You are just paraphrasing a lot of junk from the media with your views rather than the efforts being made by the global science community.




Since I am not a virologist, and make no claim of being one, like 99%+ of the population most of my information on the subject has come via the media yes.

Thankfully however the steps you have outlined as being taken by scientists can be shortcut somewhat. They may not have got the message but Zhao Lijian, China's Foreign Ministry spokesman, has stated that the source was the US military and that the virus was brought to China in October 2019.

Now Mr Lijian is indeed a Chinese government official source.

With stuff like that going on from their own officials, and given the massive consequences of the virus outbreak, it's not hard to see why there's distrust of Chinese authorities.

Personally well I've nothing against Chinese people but every single one I've had any real dealings with has given me the same warning  and that being so, I choose to heed it.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2020)

I love Rob. I think he might be the forums  greatest troll and I'm a little envious.


----------



## basilio (15 May 2020)

The problem I have with the conversation on whether the COVID virus escaped from a Wuhan lab is ... that it is sucking up all the oxygen in the discussion here and worldwide. In my mind it is a diversion.

I see the determination of Trump to try and pin the origin of the virus on a Chines lab as  a bare faced effort to distract attention from his political failure to deal with the virus on US soil.  Historically Trump has always created a fall guy for his profound mistakes.  His failure to take this virus seriously and prepare  appropriately has  lead to the needless deaths of tens of thousands of people already. Its a responsibility he will never take and is doing whatever it takes to throw China under the bus.

*With that behavior he is effectively poisoning the US and its allies relationship with China. *We are in the middle of one of the most dangerous pandemic ever seen and the most powerful nation in the world is effectively starting a cold war with the fourth biggest economy !   How dangerously stupid is that ??  Who in their right mind wants to follow down that path and off the proverbial cliff ?

There certainly should be an  independent investigation into all aspects of the outbreak and subsequent responses to this pandemic.  We collectively need to learn what happened and how to deal with it better in the future.  There is plenty of support for such a process

*But it is clear that is not the Trump agenda. * They have one and only one intention in mind - to create a current mindset that assumes China was to blame for the outbreak and is therefore  responsible and liable for everything that follows. A fall guy to get Trump off the hook.

I have said little in this discussion because 

1) The technicals are beyond my skill set and
2) I see it as an essentially poisonous  diversion from a more constructive approach. 

The expertise I respect and nod to , Dr Fauci and it seems most virologists, don't believe it came from a lab. The US and other intelligence sources can't find evidence for such an accusation. *Everyone else *thinks attempting to start a one question inquiry right now is a just the most stupid, counter productive  activity conceivable. 

The biggest thing it's doing is diverting attention from what is happening in the US now and what didn't happen in the US since January this year when it became clear how much damage this virus would do if it was not  stamped out.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> I love Rob. I think he might be the forums  greatest troll and I'm a little envious.



He certainly is engaging, but highlights his political background, by changing the thrust of the debate when losing.
Which I must say he does well, but it becomes a tedious project chasing him, I gave up long ago.
But he is entertaining, as is Kev and the gang.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 May 2020)

basilio said:


> The biggest thing it's doing is diverting attention from what is happening in the US now and what didn't happen in the US since January this year when it became clear how much damage this virus would do if it was not stamped out.



Strongly agreed.

As the old saying goes - the first casualty of war is always the truth.

In this case there is indeed a war of sorts and it seems that quite a few governments and others are using all the tricks they can find in order to divert attention from their own failings.

The situation in the US sure doesn't look good.


----------



## sptrawler (16 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Strongly agreed.
> 
> As the old saying goes - the first casualty of war is always the truth.
> 
> ...



From the very limited information I've seen regarding the U.S, all I can make from it is most are saying who cares let's get on with it, which is kind of the basis their system seems to work on.
The problem we have I think, is we think everywhere is like Australia, when in reality it isn't.
There isn't many Countries in the World with our attributes, we can support those who can't work and also indulge those that don't want to, not many Countries are that fortunate.
It will be interesting to see how the welfare system goes, when the dust settles IMO.
In reality there might not be a vaccine, and this may be something humanity has to live with, like aids.
So if that is the case the U.S and Sweden may well be taking an advantage, if this keeps re infecting and we have shutdowns every year, well I wish you the best trying to run a business.


----------



## rederob (16 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Again you fail to understand what you are saying. It is possible that it could have escaped from a lab. Possible, but not probable. Do you remember who said this just a few posts back..



Logic 101: things are possible if the ingredients exist.
From what we know, the virus was unknown until samples from Wuhan hospitals were tested *after* people became ill.
We know that the intermediate host species has not been discovered.
It's possible for a virus to leak from a lab if the virus had been known to exist in the lab.  
The idea that a virus that was not known to exist had leaked before samples were made available to it does not meet any test of reasonableness.


----------



## qldfrog (16 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I gave up on Rob about 12 months ago, I have only recently taken him off the ignore function, it seems it is still the same $hit on a different day.
> I'm not saying Rob hasn't got some great input, it is just he ignores other posters great input, if it conflicts with his.
> So discussing anything with him becomes two posts, your opinion, his opinion and then either you agree with his or else.
> Rob's way or the highway, you can see why he was a speech writer for a second rate political platform.
> Don't let one awkward poster make you leave the forum, just use the ignore function, it works a treat.



So are you talking BS CO2 is cooking the planet, gold future, US is bad, great is China and WHO or covid-19 never came from a lab in Wuhan?
Got confused, that's a lot of lobbying interests to cater for there, more pay cheques i guess?


----------



## rederob (16 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> They may not have got the message but Zhao Lijian, China's Foreign Ministry spokesman, has stated that the source was the US military and that the virus was brought to China in October 2019.
> Now Mr Lijian is indeed a Chinese government official source.



Not quite.
Here's the offending tweet.
He also responded to Trump's conspiracy theories about China leaking the virus via twitter - effectively a tit for tat - by linking to a well known conspiracy theory circulation in Asia about USA being responsible.  US pressure on the source of that link led to it being removed: remind you of any other government that might do that?
Zhao did exactly what the US was doing; spreading baseless rumours.  It's not a good look to us back in Oz, but it has never been an official line of the Chinese government that the US actually did what was linked.


----------



## bellenuit (16 May 2020)

rederob said:


> It's possible for a virus to leak from a lab




Thanks you. That is what I was asserting all along. No more, no less.


----------



## basilio (16 May 2020)

This is what happens when COVID 19 gets away in a small community. 

*Donald Trump says America's coronavirus curve is flattening but a second wave is coming for rural communities*
The country's most vulnerable communities, lulled into a false sense of security, are getting slammed with America's second wave of the virus right as the rest of the nation sees an overall flattening curve and pushes to move on.

*Cuthbert had the highest death rate per-capita in the US*
At the time of writing, Cuthbert and the surrounding Randolph County (total population: 6,700) reported 169 confirmed cases and 21 deaths.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-16/coronavirus-second-wave-hits-rural-america/12251058


----------



## satanoperca (16 May 2020)

rederob said:


> *It is impossible to have come from a lab based on what we know.*



Nothing is impossible, until proven so.

Ie the existing of God is improvable, but not impossible, until proven that it is impossible for an entity to exist, the idea is plausible, the idea is probable, but not provable.

The 3 P's always need to be considered, Plausible, Probable, Provable.

I hope that will give you Redrob a broader scope into present your discussions.


----------



## satanoperca (16 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Don't let one awkward poster make you leave the forum, just use the ignore function, it works a treat.



Not leaving, i face bullies face on, most are cowards, Redrob is just one of many. He will not be the first or the last, life goes on.


----------



## basilio (16 May 2020)

Back to the disease itself.  COVID 9 is  a very strange cat indeed.

* 'Weird as hell’: the Covid-19 patients who have symptoms for months *
Researchers keen to work out why some people are suffering from ‘long tail’ form of the virus

....Garner refers to himself wryly as a member of the “Boris Johnson herd immunity group”. This is the cluster of patients who contracted Covid-19 in the 12 days before the UK finally locked down. He assumed his illness would swiftly pass. Instead it went on and on – a rollercoaster of ill health, extreme emotions and utter exhaustion, as he put it in a blog last week for the British Medical Journal.

There is growing evidence that the virus causes a far greater array of symptoms than was previously understood. And that its effects can be agonisingly prolonged: in Garner’s case for more than seven weeks. The professor at the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine says his experience of Covid-19 featured a new and disturbing symptom every day, akin to an “advent calendar”.

He had a muggy head, upset stomach, tinnitus, pins and needles, breathlessness, dizziness and arthritis in the hands. Each time Garner thought he was getting better the illness roared back. It was a sort of virus snakes and ladders. “It’s deeply frustrating. A lot of people start doubting themselves,” he says. “Their partners wonder if there is something psychologically wrong with them.” 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...advent-calendar-covid-19-symptoms-paul-garner


----------



## moXJO (16 May 2020)

basilio said:


> The problem I have with the conversation on whether the COVID virus escaped from a Wuhan lab is ... that it is sucking up all the oxygen in the discussion here and worldwide. In my mind it is a diversion.
> 
> I see the determination of Trump to try and pin the origin of the virus on a Chines lab as  a bare faced effort to distract attention from his political failure to deal with the virus on US soil.  Historically Trump has always created a fall guy for his profound mistakes.  His failure to take this virus seriously and prepare  appropriately has  lead to the needless deaths of tens of thousands of people already. Its a responsibility he will never take and is doing whatever it takes to throw China under the bus.
> 
> ...



It is China's fault though. Hiding data and letting masses of people travel is what infected the world. On top of that they are now trying to silence Australia and Europe through trade.

I find it comical that you support a nation that has more human rights breeches then Nazi Germany. But have a bug in your ass over the US because Trump. 

Your post are that transparent.


----------



## basilio (16 May 2020)

On the big picture the US response to the COVID 19 virus both domestically and internationally is fracturing relationships and undermining respect for the United States capacity to be an effective  leader.

*World looks on in horror as Trump flails over pandemic despite claims US leads way *
The president’s outlandish behavior as Americans suffer has inspired horror and confusion while alienating allies

Coronavirus – live US updates
Live global updates
Julian Borger in Washington, Helen Davidson in Sydney, Leyland Cecco in Toronto, Daniel Boffey in Brussels Philip Oltermann in Berlin, Angela Giuffrida in Rome, Tom Phillips in Rio de Janeiro and Emmanuel Akinwotu in London

Fri 15 May 2020 18.00 AEST   Last modified on Sat 16 May 2020 03.40 AEST
The Trump administration has repeatedly claimed that the US is “leading the world” with its response to the pandemic, but it does not seem to be going in any direction the world wants to follow.

Across Europe, Asia, Africa and Latin America, views of the US handling of the coronavirus crisis are uniformly negative and range from horror through derision to sympathy. Donald Trump’s musings from the White House briefing room, particularly his thoughts on injecting disinfectant, have drawn the attention of the planet.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/15/donald-trump-coronavirus-response-world-leaders


----------



## basilio (16 May 2020)

Again on the bigger picture. 
How did the Chinese and the US respond to the COVID 19 outbreak ?

*Comparing the US’ and China’s Response to Covid-19*
*When humanity emerges from this crisis, the standing global order may look quite different.*

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/coronavirus-us-china-response/


----------



## moXJO (17 May 2020)

US still at 13th position for deaths per million.
And it's funny that the top 5 state's for deaths are actually democrat run. I think the majority are in the top 10 which is interesting.

Interesting mix Trump hating fanatics and CCP shills mixing in b.s..

Yes trump is doing a sht job to a point. But he is basically fighting against the above kind of lies with his own lies. Toxic situation overall.



rederob said:


> Not quite.
> Here's the offending tweet.
> He also responded to Trump's conspiracy theories about China leaking the virus via twitter - effectively a tit for tat - by linking to a well known conspiracy theory circulation in Asia about USA being responsible.  US pressure on the source of that link led to it being removed: remind you of any other government that might do that?
> Zhao did exactly what the US was doing; spreading baseless rumours.  It's not a good look to us back in Oz, but it has never been an official line of the Chinese government that the US actually did what was linked.



This isn't  true either.
China Global Television Network (CGTN which Rob and had quoted from) published an article on March 22 blaming Italy. Cgtn is the govt propaganda mouthpiece along with a lot of others.
They also had a guy Chen Xuyan, a scientist based in Beijing,appeared on CCTV on March 18 blaming the US.

Then we have the 50 cent army of trolls pushing the agenda.

Robs posts may seem surface legit, but they don't tell the full story. Probably why some fall down the rabbit hole.

Question everything in this climate. To much propaganda in the air.


----------



## basilio (17 May 2020)

The extended article from The Nation I posted earlier offers a comprehensive comparison between the US and Chinese response to the COVID virus.

It also opens the conversation on how the world order may look when the dust (semi) settles.

Plenty of references to every assertion.


----------



## rederob (17 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> This isn't  true either.
> China Global Television Network (CGTN which Rob and had quoted from) published an article on March 22 blaming Italy. Cgtn is the govt propaganda mouthpiece along with a lot of others.
> They also had a guy Chen Xuyan, a scientist based in Beijing,appeared on CCTV on March 18 blaming the US.



CGTN represents the government line as much as Fox does in the USA.
China's oft repeated official position is as below, in response to a question from the media:
*Q: At an interview with AXIOS and HBO, Chinese ambassador to the United States Cui Tiankai said that it was "crazy and very harmful for diplomats to speculate about the origins of the coronavirus". Is it the official position of the Chinese foreign ministry?
A: Recently I have stated China's position repeatedly here on this podium, and I would like to stress that once again.
The origin of the novel coronavirus is a matter of science that requires scientific and professional assessment. There is a clear consensus by WHO and the international community that a virus should not be linked to any specific country, region or ethnic group and such stigmatization should be rejected.
*​A major difference between the USA and China relates to who is out there helping other nations.  While people can complain about the lack of quality of some Chinese products, at least China was able to offer something rather than nothing.  It's also the case that some nations chose to bypass China's quality assured manufacturers to buy PPE on the cheap.  Anyhow, here's some of the countries China has sent expert medical teams to since the outbreak:

 Djibouti and Côte d'Ivoire 
 Kuwait
 Ethiopia and Burkina Faso 
 Russia 
 Kazakhstan 
 Philippines 
 Pakistan 
 Cambodia
 Serbia


----------



## SirRumpole (17 May 2020)

62 nations back call for covid-19 inquiry.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...world-health-assembly-china-covid-19/12256910


----------



## Dona Ferentes (17 May 2020)

*The Lancet editorial blasts Trump's 'inconsistent and incoherent' coronavirus response*


One of the world's oldest and best-known medical journals has criticised US President Donald Trump's "inconsistent and incoherent national response" to the novel coronavirus pandemic and accused the administration of relegating the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention to a "nominal" role.

The unsigned editorial from _The_ _Lancet_ concluded that Trump should be replaced. "Americans must put a president in the White House come January, 2021, who will understand that public health should not be guided by partisan politics," said the journal, which was founded in Britain in 1823....


> The authors accused the administration of undermining some of the CDC's top officials, saying the agency "has seen its role minimised and become an ineffective and nominal adviser."
> They noted that the agency, which is supposed to be the primary contact for health authorities during crises, has been hamstrung by years of budget cuts. The editorial said the administration left an "intelligence vacuum" in China when it pulled the last CDC officer from the country in July 2019.



_The Lancet_ also took the CDC to task for its botched rollout of diagnostic testing in the critical early weeks that the virus began to spread in the United States. The country remains ill-equipped to provide basic surveillance or laboratory testing to combat the disease, the journal said.


> "There is no doubt that the CDC has made mistakes, especially on testing in the early stages of the pandemic," the editorial said. "But punishing the agency by marginalising and hobbling it is not the solution. "The Administration is obsessed with magic bullets - vaccines, new medicines, or a hope that the virus will simply disappear," it continued. "But only a steadfast reliance on basic public health principles, like test, trace, and isolate, will see the emergency brought to an end, and this requires an effective national public health agency.".



..originally in _The Washington Post_


----------



## moXJO (17 May 2020)

Yeah both your sources are totally legit.  One's spruiking Russian the other China.
The Chinese provided dodgy data. I've posted numerous models and links before. And no it's not just like fox news. Its state sponsored not just ideological aligned.

Official position of China doesn't mean sht when the unofficial position is being pushed across the net. That's how propaganda works.
So far have blamed the Japan, US army, Italian doctor, France, Africans, etc.


----------



## moXJO (17 May 2020)

rederob said:


> China's oft repeated official position is as below, in response to a question from the media:
> *Q: At an interview with AXIOS and HBO, Chinese ambassador to the United States Cui Tiankai said that it was "crazy and very harmful for diplomats to speculate about the origins of the coronavirus". Is it the official position of the Chinese foreign ministry?
> A: Recently I have stated China's position repeatedly here on this podium, and I would like to stress that once again.
> The origin of the novel coronavirus is a matter of science that requires scientific and professional assessment. There is a clear consensus by WHO and the international community that a virus should not be linked to any specific country, region or ethnic group and such stigmatization should be rejected.
> ...




You only show a picture from a very narrow lens.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/3...-what-sticks-propaganda-blame-ccp-xi-jinping/

All their media is state sponsored. If CCP don't like it you get arrested or your family goes under the thumb. Its idiotic to compare it to the tanks who can lie in the media without repercussions.

As for the PPE it's been dubbed  "mask diplomacy".
*One revealing example is at the state-government level in Wisconsin.
*
According to the Wisconsin Examiner, *a diplomat at China's nearby Chicago consulate emailed the president of the Wisconsin Senate in February and March, asking that he praise China's "transparency" and "unprecedented and rigorous measures" in the epidemic.

The diplomat had even sent a draft resolution, published here by The New York Times, seemingly for Wisconsin to use.
It was not successful: Roger Roth, the Wisconsin Senate president, in his own resolution called out "propaganda and falsehoods" in the Chinese draft.

The Chinese diplomat, named Wu Ting, did not respond to The Times or Examiner's requests for comment.

Sophie Richardson, China director at Human Rights Watch, told Business Insider: "Over the last decade ... I've watched Chinese diplomats and government officials become more sophisticated in how they try to sell their message to the world.

"I can't think of another circumstance in which they have tried to hand a democratic country's state legislature a draft resolution and expect that it would receive the response they had in mind."
Chinese officials and their propaganda machinery are in high gear worldwide trying to paint the Chinese government as the solution to the problem, rather than one of the sources of it," Richardson, of Human Rights Watch, said.

"It's not a government that's capable of tolerating or willing to tolerate accountability at home. And I'm sure the idea of international accountability is not a popular topic in Beijing," she said, noting that China has for years refused to accept responsibility for human rights violations against the Uighurs in Xinjiang.

"What that machine knows how to do is make up a different story that says: 'It's not our fault.'"
*
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...olitical-points-mostly-not-working-2020-4?amp

 Not a lot to do with humanitarian efforts, remembering they drained most countries out of ppe and then sold it back to them. 
Great photo op for the people back home. So long as you praise the "saviors"
They are not the only country to do this, sure. But it should be recognised they want to be the number one country in the world. Look how the treat their own people, Tibet, Uighurs, South China sea, even those who want freedom from oppression.

Look how they treated Australia over something minor. Billions in trade over a perceived slight. 

Sooner or later the propaganda gets so polished or the truth gets so lost in b.s. stories, people shut off.

Trump is gone either November or the end of the next term. Short term problem. China needs a revolution to be free. Gigantic difference. The left has simply lost their minds over trump. So much so they have also lost the reality we are facing. Trumps scum that will get voted out. Ccp is a beast that will last decades.

Wrong side of history boys.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Zhao did exactly what the US was doing; spreading baseless rumours. It's not a good look to us back in Oz, but it has never been an official line of the Chinese government that the US actually did what was linked.




Point taken.

There is an issue however in that if someone is employed by a government and is speaking or otherwise communicating in an official capacity then it is normally taken that their comments represent the official position of the government in question unless it's clearly stated as a purely personal view.


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

*SHOCKING VIDEO: Swedish coronavirus patient SUFFOCATES to death after being REFUSED oxygen and intensive care*

Glad I don't live in Sweden.
Disgraceful.
http://timesofsweden.com/2020/05/16...fter-being-refused-oxygen-and-intensive-care/


----------



## rederob (18 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Point taken.
> 
> There is an issue however in that if someone is employed by a government and is speaking or otherwise communicating in an official capacity then it is normally taken that their comments represent the official position of the government in question unless it's clearly stated as a purely personal view.



True.
But twitter exchanges and any communication for that matter need to be seen in context. 
Lijian is paid to respond to what appears in international media and is one of the few in China with Facebook and Twitter accounts.  
The international media made a meal of his tweets and actually reported his posts incorrectly.  Lijian linked to a now deleted website article which was called "*COVID-19: Further Evidence that the Virus Originated in the US."* If you believed Lijian was stating that the USA was responsible for the virus then you too have misread the message.
The official position of China on matters is made clear through daily press conferences which everyone can read or view online.  These briefings are much more informative than anything from the White House and can be checked against real world events for accuracy.  China's "spin" on some topics in no different to what you get in Australia, the USA or anywhere else, and competent people can see through it.
Many here think I am somehow shilling for China.
I simply look at both sides of an issue, and where one side says things that don't add up, then I comment.
Our media is dominated by Murdoch influence.  Some of their headlines relating to China and COV19 are totally baseless, while a great deal more is sensationalised beyond reasonable belief.  Occasionally the headline and its content don't even match, and is just clickbait.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

The U.K and Italy to follow the U.S lead, there really isn't going to be a vaccine any time soon or indeed if at all IMO, so people are going to have to learn to live with the virus for the foreseeable future.
I guess if we want to travel overseas, we are just going to have to accept quarantine on return may be a requirement.
Just my opinion, but as the virus is reported to have a HIV component a vaccine may not eventuate, so managing our tourism and the flow of people is going to be extremely difficult.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...annot-wait-for-a-vaccine-20200518-p54ttg.html


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> there really isn't going to be a vaccine any time soon or indeed if at all IMO



IMO there will be one before the end of the year.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> IMO there will be one before the end of the year.



I hope you are right, it would be great to nullify this thing, also it would be like lighting a fuse under stock markets.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I hope you are right, it would be great to nullify this thing, also it would be like lighting a fuse under stock markets.




There would be a risk that it would be rushed out too quickly only to find it didn't work.

Then all hell would break loose.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> There would be a risk that it would be rushed out too quickly only to find it didn't work.
> 
> Then all hell would break loose.



If it is rushed out too early, the big problem could be the cure is worse than the disease, so to speak. 
They still haven't got a vaccine for HIV, and they have been trying for years, so there is no reason this can't follow the same trajectory just my opinion.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If it is rushed out too early, the big problem could be the cure is worse than the disease, so to speak.
> They still haven't got a vaccine for HIV, and they have been trying for years, so there is no reason this can't follow the same trajectory just my opinion.




Yes, it could be a lot harder than we thought. I wonder whether someone like Trump will listen to the medical advice and do proper tests, or just rush it out to get a quick fix.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, it could be a lot harder than we thought. I wonder whether someone like Trump will listen to the medical advice and do proper tests, or just rush it out to get a quick fix.



The U.S will do what it always does, charge ahead with the ultimate self confidence, Australia will require the drug to undergo the correct testing IMO.
The problem a lot of people have IMO, they think yanks think like us, I worked/lived with them for a couple of years they don't think like us at all.
90% go to church, they think they are gods chosen children and Trump is their sort of guy.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (18 May 2020)

> In 2013, the Pew Research Center reported that 37% of all *Americans* *attended church* on a weekly basis.
> 
> In its turn, Gallup estimated the once-a-week *church attendance* of the *Americans* in 2013 as 39%.




Since then, Church *Membership *continues to fall
https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-sharply-past-two-decades.aspx


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> 90% go to church, they think they are gods chosen children and Trump is their sort of guy.



90% - I think it has been less than 50% for a while. They definitely think they are the chosen ones, just ask them to locate (or name) any other country on a map, LOL
The big problem in the USA is that only 50% approve of Trump the other 50% hate him.
It might be the the United States (debatable) but it certainly is not the United People.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2020)

Jeez Belgium has taken it hard, causing some political backlash.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/doctors-n...minister-during-hospital-visit-011402198.html
From the article:
_Staff at Saint-Pierre Hospital in Brussels choreographed a united display of dissent during an official visit from Belgian Prime Minister Sophie Wilmès on the weekend.

Doctors and nurses stood on both sides of the road leading into the hospital’s main entrance. As the prime minister’s car drove in, one-by-one the healthcare workers turned their back on the national leader.
By the official numbers, Belgium has been the worst hit country in the world, on a per capita basis.

The country of just 11.5 million people has experienced a mortality rate of 78.8 deaths per 100,000 people, according to rolling data compiled by Johns Hopkins University.
Comparatively, Spain has a mortality rate of 59, Italy has a mortality of 52.5 and the UK of 51.9 per 100,000 people.

While the the United States by far has the most known cases and deaths, it currently has an official mortality rate of 27 deaths per 100,000 people.

Australia has just 0.39 deaths per 100,000, according to the mortality analysis by the university_.


----------



## qldfrog (18 May 2020)

I would like to share some thoughts and maybe get some intelligent feedback.
France clusters now seem to highlight a high frequency of occurrence in slaughter house
And one of the latest cluster in Melbourne was in an slaughter house too.
We also know that max transmission is at 8C and 64% humidity.. slaughter house perfect...
People were saying close presence in confined space but that is the same in many factory lines
Should this indicate and reinforce this temperature moisture correlation.
Then this means scary time ahead down South in Australia in the next 3 months and a take it easy here in qld.
Would match the absence of real explosion in tropical areas
Covid-19 could be a col and temperate climate issue mostly/only


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The problem a lot of people have IMO, they think yanks think like us, I worked/lived with them for a couple of years they don't think like us at all.



True although same could be said for most places. They might seem the same on the surface but start digging and really they aren't.

Even within Australia there are subtle differences in the way people tend to think in different parts of the country which only become apparent after experiencing it.


----------



## rederob (18 May 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I would like to share some thoughts and maybe get some intelligent feedback.
> France clusters now seem to highlight a high frequency of occurrence in slaughter house
> And one of the latest cluster in Melbourne was in an slaughter house too.
> We also know that max transmission is at 8C and 64% humidity.. slaughter house perfect...
> ...



First, COV19 is known to survive longer on colder surfaces so the northern winter was an ideal breeding ground.  In fact a ski resort became one of Europe's COV19 hotspots and may have been linked to UK's patient zero.
Next, while production lines at meat processing facilities are pretty good in terms of food handling practices, the problem possibly lies with the workers themselves.  As a generalisation, and in the USA in particular, much the industry relies on workers not seen as “regular folks” (eg, have a low level of education, are undocumented migrants or former prisoners), and many work on a piece-rate basis, so will continue to come to work even when sick.  However, at least in the USA, many of these workers also share accommodation or live in the same complexes, and are also typically more socially interactive, thereby enhancing potential spread.
As a quick aside, until recently whenever I went shopping I looked for the hottest supermarket trolley in the carpark as I knew the hot metal and handle would have been a far better sanitiser for the whole trolley than a mere handle-sanitising wipe in the centre itself.


----------



## dutchie (18 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Even within Australia there are subtle differences in the way people tend to think in different parts of the country which only become apparent after experiencing it.




Yes, I have often wondered why some Australians don't like the colour maroon, whilst other Australians don't like the colour blue. It seems to be a regional thing.


----------



## rederob (19 May 2020)

The media made a meal into a feast over the "inquiry into the origins of COV19" but really had no idea what it actually entailed.  So here's the resolution that Australia supported, and here's the nub:
*OP9.10 Initiate, at the earliest appropriate moment, and in consultation with Member States, 1 a stepwise process of impartial, independent and comprehensive evaluation, including using existing mechanisms, 2 as appropriate, to review experience gained and lessons learned from the WHO-coordinated international health response to COVID-19, including (i) the effectiveness of the mechanisms at WHO’s disposal; (ii) the functioning of the IHR and the status of implementation of the relevant recommendations of the previous IHR Review Committees; (iii) WHO’s contribution to United Nations-wide efforts; and (iv) the actions of WHO and their timelines pertaining to the COVID-19 pandemic, and make recommendations to improve global pandemic prevention, preparedness, and response capacity, including through strengthening, as appropriate, WHO’s Health Emergencies Programme;*​There appears to be a spelling mistake in that "timelines" should be *timeliness*.  Apart from that you don't need to be a genius to work out that the issue of "*origin*" is conspicuously absent.
The wording of UN resolutions is vital, as there should be no ambiguities in what is being proposed.  In this case the resolution is to conduct an "*evaluation*".  It will be about assessing *how *things happened rather than inquiring about any cause.
It was no surprise that Xi supported the thrust of the resolution as China has officially indicated that to be the case.  Sensibly, the issue of "origin" will be determined by science in the fullness of time (with luck).


----------



## moXJO (19 May 2020)

rederob said:


> It was no surprise that Xi supported the thrust of the resolution as China has officially indicated that to be the case.  Sensibly, the issue of "origin" will be determined by science in the fullness of time (with luck).



Shame about the tariffs. I suppose those were determined by "science" though.


----------



## wayneL (19 May 2020)

Interesting stats here:


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Cut the crap rob.
> 
> Just hold an independent enquiry and find the TRUTH.
> 
> That's all.



Sounds as though you are going to get your wish Rumpy, you started calling for it over a month ago, well at least it is going to get off the ground.
It will be interesting to see the terms of reference, that are agreed on, six months after the event it will be difficult to find any information World wide that isn't sanitised living or dead.


----------



## bellenuit (19 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds as though you are going to get your wish Rumpy, you started calling for it over a month ago, well at least it is going to get off the ground.
> It will be interesting to see the terms of reference, that are agreed on, six months after the event it will be difficult to find any information World wide that isn't sanitised living or dead.




I haven't read the text in detail, but I think China has agreed to do it "at an appropriate time".


----------



## rederob (19 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds as though you are going to get your wish Rumpy, you started calling for it over a month ago, well at least it is going to get off the ground.
> It will be interesting to see the terms of reference, that are agreed on, six months after the event it will be difficult to find any information World wide that isn't sanitised living or dead.



There was never going to be an "inquiry" nor an "investigation," so it makes no difference how long it takes as all the information will still be available whenever the *evaluation *begins.


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

rederob said:


> There was never going to be an "inquiry" nor an "investigation," so it makes no difference how long it takes as all the information will still be available whenever the *evaluation *begins.



Funniest statement you have made all day.


----------



## rederob (19 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> Funniest statement you have made all day.



Not as *funny *as it made our PM look when the Chinese Embassy pointed out that the consultation process leading to the resolution meant that for Australia to claim *vindication *was "nothing but a joke."


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Not as *funny *as it made our PM look when the Chinese Embassy pointed out that the consultation process leading to the resolution meant that for Australia to claim *vindication *was "nothing but a joke."



Now, you have put me in a quandary. I'm not sure whether this statement is funnier than your last one.
Hmmm, no,  as funny as this statement is it is not quite as funny as your previous one.  Other people may argue the point however.


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

Now rederob, you do have to admit that all the BS that comes out of China *is* a joke, period.


----------



## rederob (19 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> Now, you have put me in a quandary. I'm not sure whether this statement is funnier than your last one.
> Hmmm, no,  as funny as this statement is it is not quite as funny as your previous one.  Other people may argue the point however.



Scomo wanted cheese and instead has to eat chalk!
Our pathetic journalists cannot tell the difference!  Here's the return fire from a question put to the Ministry for Foreign Affairs yesterday:
*The Australian: "More than 100 of the WHO's almost 190 members now support an independent inquiry into the coronavirus. Those countries on every continent in the world include Russia, Japan, India, the EU, Brazil, Australia and almost every nation in Africa. Will China support the independent inquiry when it is introduced at tomorrow's WHA?"*
_
Zhao Lijian: "What you said is *not accurate*. The European Union recently submitted a draft resolution on COVID-19 to the 73rd World Health Assembly on which all parties have reached consensus. On the tracing of the *origin *of the virus, all parties agreed to choose wording following the recommendations of the International Health Regulations Emergency Committee and ask the WHO Director-General to closely cooperate with OIE, FAO and the member states to identify the animal source of the virus, its route for transmission to humans and possible intermediate hosts, aiming to reduce the risk of similar incidents in the future. This demonstrates a scientific and professional spirit. As to the *evaluation *of WHO response to COVID-19, the draft resolution requests the Director-General to, after consultations with member states, initiate at the appropriate moment a stepwise process of impartial, independent and comprehensive evaluation to review experience gained and lessons learnt from the WHO-coordinated international health response to COVID-19 and propose suggestions for the work in the future. This is a customary practice for the WHO after dealing with a pandemic. For the international community, the above-mentioned is the largest possible common ground on the relevant issue.

During the consultations on the resolution, the overwhelming majority of countries believed the pandemic has yet to pass and the cooperation on COVID-19 remains the most pressing task. It is immature to immediately initiate the review and trace the origin of the virus for the time being.

We hope all parties will uphold a science-based and cooperative spirit at this WHA and focus on having constructive discussions on enhancing international public health cooperation and improving international public health system."_​


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Scomo wanted cheese and instead has to eat chalk!
> 
> Our pathetic journalists cannot tell the difference!  Here's the return fire from a question put to the Ministry for Foreign Affairs yesterday:
> *The Australian: "More than 100 of the WHO's almost 190 members now support an independent inquiry into the coronavirus. Those countries on every continent in the world include Russia, Japan, India, the EU, Brazil, Australia and almost every nation in Africa. Will China support the independent inquiry when it is introduced at tomorrow's WHA?"*
> ...



Read my last post. 
i.e. All China statements = BS 
Scomo got caviar, China got crow!


----------



## hja (19 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Not as *funny *as it made our PM look when the Chinese Embassy pointed out that the consultation process leading to the resolution meant that for Australia to claim *vindication *was "nothing but a joke."



Not half as funny as the expression on Cheng's face on Q&A when he pointed out that everything he couldn't digest was "fake news". That guy is a walking colostomy artist.


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Scomo wanted cheese and instead has to eat chalk!
> Our pathetic journalists cannot tell the difference!  Here's the return fire from a question put to the Ministry for Foreign Affairs yesterday:
> *The Australian: "More than 100 of the WHO's almost 190 members now support an independent inquiry into the coronavirus. Those countries on every continent in the world include Russia, Japan, India, the EU, Brazil, Australia and almost every nation in Africa. Will China support the independent inquiry when it is introduced at tomorrow's WHA?"*
> _
> ...



Jeez Rob, it is like watching Luigi the incredible magician(Paul Hogan) as he tries to backfill another stuff up, "Keep a dancing Maria".


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2020)

This is what frustrates Joe Average with the whole world of politics.

Investgation, evaluation, inquiry, whatever nobody in the real world cares what it’s called.

Just get properly qualified, independent people to find out what happened, why and how it can be prevented from happening again.

If that turns up negligence then at that point obviously we’re looking at compensation and so on but we aren’t at that point yet.


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> This is what frustrates Joe Average with the whole world of politics.
> 
> Investgation, evaluation, inquiry, whatever nobody in the real world cares what it’s called.
> 
> ...



That's too easy for some people, smurf, you've worked in Government and know what it is like. You have to through all the nonsense phases, before accepting the obvious. 
Wow that describes someone on the forum.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> That's too easy for some people, smurf, you've worked in Government and know what it is like. You have to through all the nonsense phases, before accepting the obvious.




This issue has the same problem as climate change.

Too many are trying to hitch some unrelated agenda to it rather than just fixing the problem and nothing more.


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> This issue has the same problem as climate change.
> 
> Too many are trying to hitch some unrelated agenda to it rather than just fixing the problem and nothing more.



Absolutely.
It is no good just saying the virus is one of those things, the next one could be a lot worse and if we don't learn from this one, I personally don't think the next one will end as well as this one.


----------



## rederob (19 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> This is what frustrates Joe Average with the whole world of politics.
> 
> Investgation, evaluation, inquiry, whatever nobody in the real world cares what it’s called.
> 
> ...



They might not care, but this is about "processes" and steps taken.
If journalists understood the English language better, most of us would be correctly informed about what was actually going to happen. 
There will *not *be an inquiry into the origin or source of the virus as that is likely to occur as outlined under OP9.6 of the proposed resolution.  This was going to happen regardless of the proposed resolution, and shows the level of ignorance displayed by our government, who preferred to grandstand on a false narrative.
Next, you cannot prevent a natural process from happening, so there will be more zoonotic viruses springing up in future.  Nature cannot be blamed for "negligence."
The *evaluation *will look at how a future response occurs to mitigate illness and death.
Sadly, the politicisation of this event has caused the loss of agricultural markets.  It's not surprising.  Our current government has a poor track record on matters concerning China.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (19 May 2020)

_Quo usque tandem abutere, _Rederoba_, patientia nostra_?

Can I say it any clearer?


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2020)

rederob said:


> .  Our current government has a poor track record on matters concerning China.



As opposed to what? Kev and his Rat F$#k comments and Julia and the meat export embargo with Indonesia?
You are at least funny, in your obvious bias.


----------



## rederob (19 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> _Quo usque tandem abutere, _Rederoba_, patientia nostra_?
> 
> Can I say it any clearer?



If you read media articles and listen to the news you might think the WHA will vote on finding out how COV19 came into being.
It will do nothing of the sort.
The *evaluation *will look at who did what, how, when, and why.  Recommendations will come out of it.
Those who don't appreciate that are certainly trying my patience.


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> _Quo usque tandem abutere, _Rederoba_, patientia nostra_?
> 
> Can I say it any clearer?



 In one ear out the other.

Unfortunately, but understandably, rederob thinks, just like his Chinese countrymen, that people
1. take them seriously and 2. believe what they say.  Little do they know.


----------



## dutchie (19 May 2020)

rederob said:


> trying my patience.



We're trying your patience  -  now, that is funny.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 May 2020)

The more they find out about covid, the worse it looks.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...ny-says-covid-like-multiple-diseases/12242026


----------



## macca (19 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The more they find out about covid, the worse it looks.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...ny-says-covid-like-multiple-diseases/12242026




I fear it is looking more and more like world altering event, instilling in every thinking person a permanent fear of the unknown.


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2020)

Sounds as though this book may be an interesting read.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/author-targeted-chinese-nationalists-over-wuhan-diary-060038350.html
From the article:

Wang Fang, 65, who uses the pen name Fang Fang, has been slammed as a traitor online after the account which she initially shared to her Weibo account has been collated for publication in English this month.
To be published as ‘Wuhan Diary’, Wang documents life inside Wuhan as the city was put into an unprecedented lockdown.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2020)

rederob said:


> you cannot prevent a natural process from happening, so there will be more zoonotic viruses springing up in future. Nature cannot be blamed for "negligence."




No disagreement there assuming that humans played zero role in it. Nobody ate something they sensibly wouldn't have eaten, there was no lab involved with it all, it didn't come from a market etc. That doesn't seem to be known with certainty at this stage.

As an overall comment, in any other field if something serious happens then getting to the root cause of the problem would be the focus of an investigation.

In anything from a structural collapse or plane crash through to things where the problem is a financial one, for example big budget movies failing to draw audiences, there's a pretty serious effort made in determining what went wrong.

Given the consequences of this virus, it seems reasonable to expect that the standard of investigation would be very thorough in getting to the truth so far as is practical. We're talking about major disruption to billions of people and over 300,000 deaths with all this. That's a fair bit worse than any bridge collapse and it's a hell of a lot worse than someone picking the wrong actor for the movie.


----------



## rederob (20 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Given the consequences of this virus, it seems reasonable to expect that the standard of investigation would be very thorough in getting to the truth so far as is practical. We're talking about major disruption to billions of people and over 300,000 deaths with all this. That's a fair bit worse than any bridge collapse and it's a hell of a lot worse than someone picking the wrong actor for the movie.



Again, there will be no "*investigation*" in the conventional sense as the path to identifying  the zoonotic source of the virus is spelled out at OP9.6.  This process has  been ongoing, and there are already hundreds of scientific papers about it.  It will continue to involve a large international effort of science specialists and with luck might find the intermediate host/s.


----------



## Humid (20 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> As opposed to what? Kev and his Rat F$#k comments and Julia and the meat export embargo with Indonesia?
> You are at least funny, in your obvious bias.



Your not


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2020)

Humid said:


> Your not



Come on, I've given Mark McGowan heaps of accolades, credit where credit is due.
I'm still on the fence with ScoMo, in my opinion he hasn't done anything wrong, but I wouldn't rave about his performance up until now. I expected him to perform better to be honest.
I'm pretty impressed with Albo, which I didn't expect, he hasn't blown his feet off or ranted on endlessly which is a breath of fresh air.
ATM I could go either way, if an election was on, which is the first time in a long time.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Again, there will be no "*investigation*" in the conventional sense as the path to identifying  the zoonotic source of the virus is spelled out at OP9.6.  This process has  been ongoing, and there are already hundreds of scientific papers about it.  It will continue to involve a large international effort of science specialists and with luck might find the intermediate host/s.



Looks like a full investigation is the go.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...sembly-as-china-signs-on-20200519-p54ukn.html
From the article:
_A historic motion led by the European Union and Australia to establish an independent review of the coronavirus has passed the World Health Assembly.

The unanimous vote was carried without objection just before 10pm on Tuesday night. *The decision will see an inquiry into the origins and international response to the coronavirus* established at the earliest possible opportunity.

*The review will identify the source of the virus and the route of introduction from other animals to the human population*, as well as consider lessons learned from the WHO-coordinated international health response to COVID-19.

In a joint statement from Foreign Minister Marise Payne and Health Minister Greg Hunt, Australia welcomed the adoption of the resolution.

"*There is also a clear mandate to identify the source of the COVID-19 virus and how it was transmitted to humans, which will be necessary to prevent and reduce the risks of the emergence of new diseases that pass from animals to humans," the statement read*.

"Australia has been clear and transparent in calling for an independent review into COVID-19, which is an unprecedented global health and economic crisis_.

There you go Rob.


----------



## rederob (20 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like a full investigation is the go.
> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...sembly-as-china-signs-on-20200519-p54ukn.html
> From the article:
> A historic motion led by the European Union and Australia to establish an independent review of the coronavirus has passed the World Health Assembly.
> ...



*Why not read the actual resolution, and quote what is says.*
I have consistently said that what journalists are writing is not correct, and I know that what you have linked to has some glaring errors.
How about stumping up facts rather than poor journalism.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2020)

Time will tell, as usual.
There is no way it wont be a full investigation, the U.S has made that fairly clear, to those who want to listen.
The only one here, who was saying there wont be an investigation and giving endless reams of reasons why one shouldn't happen, seems to be now changing the tone.
From what I posted, the journalist is quoting the foreign and health ministers, not giving an opinion.
Looks like you have backed the wrong side of the argument, yet again Rob.


----------



## rederob (20 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> There is no way it wont be a full investigation, the U.S has made that fairly clear, to those who want to listen.



As I said, quote from the *resolution*, as it contradicts your claims.
If you cannot do that then what you are posting is more in the stream of "fake news" from the media you tune in to.


----------



## dutchie (20 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Time will tell, as usual.
> There is no way it wont be a full investigation, the U.S has made that fairly clear, to those who want to listen.
> The only one here, who was saying there wont be an investigation and giving endless reams of reasons why one shouldn't happen, seems to be now changing the tone.
> From what I posted, the journalist is quoting the foreign and health ministers, not giving an opinion.
> Looks like you have backed the wrong side of the argument, yet again Rob.



The full investigation will obviously depend on how much cooperation it gets from the Chinese, which will be minimal, to save their @sses.
China lied, people died.


----------



## rederob (20 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> The full investigation will obviously depend on how much cooperation it gets from the Chinese, which will be minimal, to save their @sses.
> China lied, people died.



As there will not be an *investigation*, your ideas are without merit.


----------



## moXJO (20 May 2020)

rederob said:


> *Why not read the actual resolution, and quote what is says.*
> I have consistently said that what journalists are writing is not correct, and I know that what you have linked to has some glaring errors.
> How about stumping up facts rather than poor journalism.




Finally something we can agree on. SMH is fake news


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2020)

dutchie said:


> The full investigation will obviously depend on how much cooperation it gets from the Chinese, which will be minimal, to save their @sses.
> China lied, people died.



It will be difficult to get anywhere,everything will be sanitised, but at least it is happening.
Some good will come out of it, proceedures will be developed to ensure the next time it doesn't get out of control as quickly, it will be interesting to see what changes are made for international travelers.


----------



## macca (20 May 2020)

This seems to be mutating, now it is causing strokes in the younger generation

<<A growing body of evidence is painting a grim picture of how coronavirus can wreak havoc from one end of the body to the other.

It's well established that COVID-19 affects the respiratory system and targets the lungs. But several studies and anecdotal evidence suggest the disease may also cause super-charged blood clotting that damages vital organs, including the kidneys, heart and brain.

The New England Journal of Medicine recently published a case report on a small cluster of strokes in New York that involved young, healthy people, who had the virus but no known risk factors for stroke.>>

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-05-07/coronavirus-blood-clot-stroke/12220474

We cannot afford to lock down again so we need to follow the example of the experienced Asian countries.

We need to be wearing cheap exhalation prevention masks when in public and carry on working as best we can.


----------



## basilio (21 May 2020)

Can't underestimate the capacity of COVID 19 to be spread in favourable circumstances.
This is not preaching to the choir.

*Coronavirus: Man gives 52 people virus in 2.5 hours at choir practice*
When he turned up to choir practice, he had no symptoms. Just 2.5 hours later, 52 of the 61 singing group members were infected with coronavirus.
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...e/news-story/9c9db88c2ca2129cb0ad60177b11856c


----------



## Dona Ferentes (21 May 2020)

basilio said:


> Can't underestimate the capacity of COVID 19 to be spread in favourable circumstances.
> *...*
> When he turned up to choir practice, he had no symptoms. Just 2.5 hours later, 52 of the 61 singing group members were infected with coronavirus.



Quoted in this article (superclusters or no transmission):

*Why do some COVID-19 patients infect many others, whereas most don’t spread the virus at all?*
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ny-others-whereas-most-don-t-spread-virus-all


----------



## rederob (21 May 2020)

More about the "French connection."


----------



## basilio (22 May 2020)

A group of  medical scientists have published and widely distributed a paper which points out that the US government has only three months to rebuild its stockpile of  PPE and emergency medical supplies to ensure there are no shortages if/when there is a resurgence of COVID 19.

Be interesting to see the response from State Governors and Republican politicians.

* Exclusive: US has three months to rebuild medical supplies stockpile, Obama administration scientists warn *
A seven-page report from the former president’s science advisers is an implicit criticism of Donald Trump’s handling of the pandemic
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...obama-us-national-stockpile-trump-coronavirus


----------



## Knobby22 (22 May 2020)

I have been seeing from a few sources that many countries are not reporting the true death rate from coronavirus. For instance officially in the USA the death rates are 10000 per day above normal but officially coronavirus is only causing 1500 of them.

It's not just government fudging. 
A work colleague from Queensland told me his Dads friends, a couple, caught it and went to hospital,  recovered went home and then two weeks later the male was found dead with stroke in his pool.
He was in his 60s.


----------



## macca (22 May 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I have been seeing from a few sources that many countries are not reporting the true death rate from coronavirus. For instance officially in the USA the death rates are 10000 per day above normal but officially coronavirus is only causing 1500 of them.
> 
> It's not just government fudging.
> A work colleague from Queensland told me his Dads friends, a couple, caught it and went to hospital,  recovered went home and then two weeks later the male was found dead with stroke in his pool.
> He was in his 60s.




That is scary isn't, the world has had a very good run for 70 years (in most places) but now we have this horrid virus that really is out of control.

When I read about these people experimenting with virus' and such I have always thought that they were "playing with fire"

I also feel the same way about the fools that send signals into space, what happens if the aliens aren't friendly ?

If they are advanced enough to get here, then they are too smart for us


----------



## Humid (23 May 2020)

The show goes on
https://www.perthnow.com.au/communi...theatre-in-kinglsey-reopens-tonight-c-1044350


----------



## orr (23 May 2020)

macca said:


> "playing with fire"
> 
> I also feel the same way about the fools that send signals into space, what happens if the aliens aren't friendly ?




You've had a bit of time to think about that one now macca....We all go out for a 'long long lunch' on occasion.. not the best time to rattle the keys and hit the 'submit button'

And on Dutch's post at #1789 linking timesofsweden. Not an organ of any repute as far as I've yet determined.
Careful about what's 'out there' boys... (insert X-Files emoji)


----------



## macca (23 May 2020)

orr said:


> You've had a bit of time to think about that one now macca....We all go out for a 'long long lunch' on occasion.. not the best time to rattle the keys and hit the 'submit button'
> 
> And on Dutch's post at #1789 linking timesofsweden. Not an organ of any repute as far as I've yet determined.
> Careful about what's 'out there' boys... (insert X-Files emoji)




I agree, but even though you have done that today usually your posts are  OK so no worries.

I hope you had a good day


----------



## fiftyeight (25 May 2020)

Things here do not seem to add up.

NSW population 8ish million
Virginia USA 8ish million

NSW eased restrictions on the 15/5. Low numbers over an extended period, things seem to be under control.








Virginia eased restrictions to a similar level to NSW on the same day 15/5.

The numbers of cases below at the right hand side of the chart should rise as they back date new cases.

NSW on its worst day had 212 new cases.
Virginia on the 18/05 had 370 new cases.

So Virginia is easing restrictions roughly around the same levels NSW had at its worst.






Key take away, 534,775 cases avoided??? This sounds more like a political add than a press release from the Virginia Department of Health

https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/conten...020/05/UVA-Model-Weekly-Report-2020-05-22.pdf







It is not even confirmed that they have R0 < 1.

Either Australia, NZ and others have been waaaaaaaaaay over cautious or the USA covid story is far far from over.

Or as is always a possibility, I have made a huge mistake somewhere. I hope I have overlooked something otherwise this does not look good.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 May 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> Either Australia, NZ and others have been waaaaaaaaaay over cautious or the USA covid story is far far from over.




I'm wondering about the longer term economic effects of this.

Anyone who has enough money such that work is optional tends to place considerable value on their personal health and safety. Not all but typically that is the case.

If someone's already "made it" in business or in areas such as sports or entertainment (or anything else which makes people rather wealthy) then rationally they'd be wondering what on earth they're doing continuing to live in the US given that there are other countries which seem far safer. 

I'm wondering if we'll see a rise in wealthy immigrants to Australia and NZ?


----------



## qldfrog (26 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm wondering about the longer term economic effects of this.
> 
> Anyone who has enough money such that work is optional tends to place considerable value on their personal health and safety. Not all but typically that is the case.
> 
> ...



Tourists maybe not immigrants as we have a punitive tax rate.they would be crazy to become resident for tax purpose


----------



## fiftyeight (26 May 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm wondering about the longer term economic effects of this.
> 
> Anyone who has enough money such that work is optional tends to place considerable value on their personal health and safety. Not all but typically that is the case.
> 
> ...




They talk about this on the latest episode of the  Eric Weinstein's The Portal with Balaji Srinivasan

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...EwjD-en92s_pAhXyzjgGHeSbDcIQieUEegQIAhAE&ep=6


----------



## basilio (26 May 2020)

The "Dossier".  A world wide Murdoch push to shift the conversation on COVIOD 19.
The reality ?

*Coronavirus 'dossier' was a basic timeline of facts handed out by US State Department with no new evidence*

......In the middle of the US push, on May 2, the Saturday Telegraph published its assertions about the links between the lab and the pandemic, sourced to the so-called "western governments dossier".
Download the ABC News app and subscribe to our range of news alerts for the latest on how the pandemic is impacting the world
Despite all of the above, no evidence has been provided to date to back up assertions the virus leaked from the lab.
"It's likely that all governments during this phase have been trying to persuade media organisations of their world view, their policy positions, their perspective," said Professor Medcalf.
*"I think the greater concern is that [the non-paper is] essentially a speculative document somehow dressed up to be a highly authoritative piece of intelligence, which from all appearances it doesn't seem to be."*
"I think what has happened here is that a document of no intrinsic significance whatsoever has been inflated into an importance which it simply doesn't have," said head of The Australia Institute's International and Security Affairs program, Allan Behm.
The US Embassy declined to comment for this story as did the Telegraph journalist who wrote the articles, Sharri Markson.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...sier-came-out-of-us-state-department/12282994


----------



## moXJO (26 May 2020)

basilio said:


> The "Dossier".  A world wide Murdoch push to shift the conversation on COVIOD 19.
> The reality ?
> 
> *Coronavirus 'dossier' was a basic timeline of facts handed out by US State Department with no new evidence*
> ...



There's no info it leaked because China won't let an investigation happen.

Meanwhile our own Professor Nikolai Petrovsky
is still open to the possibility of it being a lab leak. Along with a lot of other high profile experts. We simply don't know because no data came out of China except dodgy numbers.



> The coronavirus that has become a world-wide pandemic may have been created in “cell-culture experiment” in a laboratory, according to prominent scientists who have conducted ground-breaking research into the origins of the virus. Flinders University Professor Nikolai Petrovsky’s has completed a scientific study, currently undergoing peer review, in conjunction with LaTrobe University in Victoria, which found COVID-19 was uniquely adapted for transmission to humans, far more than any other animal, including bats. Professor Petrovsky, from the College of Medicine and Public Health at Flinders University who has spent the past 20 years developing vaccines against pandemic influenza, Ebola and animal SARS, said this highly unusual finding left open the possibility that the virus leaked from a laboratory. “The two possibilities which I think are both still open is that it was a chance transmission of a virus from an as yet unidentified animal to human. The other possibility is that it was an accidental release of the virus from a laboratory,” he said. “Certainly we can’t exclude the possibility that this came from a laboratory experiment rather than from an animal. They are both open possibilities.” Professor Petrovsky, who is the Chairman and Research Director of Vaxine Pty Ltd, said COVID-19 has genetic elements similar to bat coronaviruses as well as other coronaviruses. The way coronavirus enters human cells is by binding to a protein on the surface of lung-cells called ACE2. The study showed the virus bound more tightly to human-ACE2 than to any of the other animals they tested. “It was like it was designed to infect humans,” he said. “One of the possibilities is that an animal host was infected by two coronaviruses at the same time and COVID-19 is the progeny of that interaction between the two viruses. “The same process can happen in a petri-dish. If you have cells in culture and you have human cells in that culture which the viruses are infecting, then if there are two viruses in that dish, they can swap genetic information and you can accidentally or deliberately create a whole third new virus out of that system. “In other words COVID-19 could have been created from that recombination event in an animal host or it could have occurred in a cell-culture experiment.” Professor Petrovsky was originally modelling the virus in January to prepare a vaccine candidate. He then turned his attention to “explore what animal species might have been involved in the transmission to humans” to understand the origins of the virus - and had a “surprising” result when none were well-adapted. “We found that the COVID-19 virus was particularly well-adapted to bind to human cells and that was far superior to its ability to bind to the cells of any other animal species which is quite unusual because typically when a virus is well-adapted to an animal and then it by chance crosses to a human, typically, you would expect it to have lower-binding to human cells than to the original host animal. We found the opposite so that was a big surprise,” he said. Scientists worldwide have, to date, overwhelmingly said the virus was more likely originated in a wet-market and was not created in a laboratory. Even the United States Office of National Intelligence ruled out COVID-19 being created in a laboratory. Asked why scientists have had this view, Professor Petrovsky said scientists “try not to be political” and do not want their research impacted adversely by tighter laboratory controls. “We just try to base our findings on facts rather than taking particular political positions but sometimes obviously the alternatives may have unintended consequences,” he said. “For instance, if it was to turn out that this virus may have come about because of an accidental lab release that would have implications for how we do viral research in laboratories all around the world which could make doing research much harder. “So I think the inclination of virus researchers would be to presume that it came from an animal until proven otherwise because that would have less ramifications for how we are able to do research in the future. The alternative obviously has quite major implications for science and science on viruses, not just obviously political ramifications which we’re all well aware of.” Professor Petrovsky said an inquiry needs to start straight away, not when the pandemic is finished. “The idea of putting it off to the pandemic is over, it would be a mistake,” he said. “I’m certainly very much in favour of a scientific investigation. It’s only objective should be to get to the bottom of how did this pandemic happen and how do we prevent a future pandemic…. not to have a witch-hunt.” Image: AP


----------



## rederob (26 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> There's no info it leaked because China won't let an investigation happen.
> 
> Meanwhile our own Professor Nikolai Petrovsky
> is still open to the possibility of it being a lab leak. Along with a lot of other high profile experts. We simply don't know because no data came out of China except dodgy numbers.



China is allowing science to guide where the source may reside, so your comments continue to reflect the level of ignorance surrounding what occurred.
The idea that COV19 leaked from a Chinese lab has the same logical credibility as the tooth fairy, but that wold not be a good headline for the media.


----------



## qldfrog (26 May 2020)

rederob said:


> China is allowing science to guide where the source may reside,



ROL


----------



## rederob (26 May 2020)

qldfrog said:


> ROL



Why not "know" something?
Here's part of the unanimous WHO Resolution which Australia wants to take credit for:
*to continue to work closely with the (OIE), the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) and countries, as part of the One-Health Approach to identify the zoonotic source of the virus and the route of introduction to the human population, including the possible role of intermediate hosts, including through efforts such as scientific and collaborative field missions, which will enable targeted interventions and a research agenda to reduce the risk of similar events occurring, as well as to provide guidance on how to prevent infection with severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-COV2) in animals and humans and prevent the establishment of new zoonotic reservoirs, as well as to reduce further risks of emergence and transmission of zoonotic diseases;*​The above has been "work in progress" since the* Report of the WHO-China Joint Mission on Coronavirus Disease 2019* in February.
China has never had any problem with a "review" of what has happened, and has made numerous official announcements in this regard.  It's a shame most people just believe what they read in or hear in local media.


----------



## dutchie (26 May 2020)

rederob said:


> China is allowing science to guide where the source may reside, so your comments continue to reflect the level of ignorance surrounding what occurred.
> The idea that COV19 leaked from a Chinese lab has the same logical credibility as the tooth fairy, but that wold not be a good headline for the media.



No. B.S.
China is just trying to cover their @rses, period.
But the world will not let the b@stards get away with it.


----------



## moXJO (26 May 2020)

rederob said:


> China is allowing science to guide where the source may reside, so your comments continue to reflect the level of ignorance surrounding what occurred.
> The idea that COV19 leaked from a Chinese lab has the same logical credibility as the tooth fairy, but that wold not be a good headline for the media.



I'll trust a specialist proffesor in the field over 'his royal redness' thanks.


----------



## moXJO (26 May 2020)

rederob said:


> Why not "know" something?
> Here's part of the unanimous WHO Resolution which Australia wants to take credit for:
> *to continue to work closely with the (OIE), the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) and countries, as part of the One-Health Approach to identify the zoonotic source of the virus and the route of introduction to the human population, including the possible role of intermediate hosts, including through efforts such as scientific and collaborative field missions, which will enable targeted interventions and a research agenda to reduce the risk of similar events occurring, as well as to provide guidance on how to prevent infection with severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-COV2) in animals and humans and prevent the establishment of new zoonotic reservoirs, as well as to reduce further risks of emergence and transmission of zoonotic diseases;*​The above has been "work in progress" since the* Report of the WHO-China Joint Mission on Coronavirus Disease 2019* in February.
> China has never had any problem with a "review" of what has happened, and has made numerous official announcements in this regard.  It's a shame most people just believe what they read in or hear in local media.



Feeding WHO  fudgey data does not a collaboration make.


----------



## bellenuit (29 May 2020)

Interesting article from today's Wall Street Journal on COVID-19 deaths. It is behind a pay wall, so I will only include the relevant chart.







Basically it is indicating that apart from Belgium, most other countries/cities are underreporting number of COVID-19 deaths, with those above used as an example. The blue line represents all deaths and the red line COVID-19 attributed deaths. *All things being equal*, both the shape and magnitude of the red line with 0 deaths as a base, should match the shape and magnitude of the blue line with the dotted line (which is the average deaths over the preceding 5 years) as base. In other words it is saying, _all things being equal_, anything above the average is likely a COVID-19 death.

The reason it gave for Belgiums exceptionally high per capita rate (shown above are absolute numbers and not per capita numbers) and also its more accurate reflection of reality is: _Unlike most countries and many U.S. states, which list only Covid-19 deaths confirmed by tests, Belgium also tallies suspected Covid-19 fatalities._

Although the _*all things being equal*_ proviso is a big assumption (for instance, have deaths from flu fallen as a result of social isolating), it would appear, as the article suggests, that COVID-19 deaths are underreported.


----------



## qldfrog (29 May 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Interesting article from today's Wall Street Journal on COVID-19 deaths. It is behind a pay wall, so I will only include the relevant chart.
> 
> View attachment 103915
> 
> ...



True but let's not forget that with older aging population, I would expect the deaths sans COVID-19 increasing anyway against the average of the last 5 years, so under reported yes, but probably slightly less than the raw difference between these lines. not trying to minimise the effect, just adding a bit of mathematical correction.On the other end, we may have saved people from the common flu too


----------



## basilio (29 May 2020)

*Wuhan Lab asks NewsCorp for tips on viral fabrication: “They’re the experts” *
May 26, 2020

WRITTEN BY
Charles Firth 


A representative of the Virology Institute of Wuhan has reached out to News Corp to get some tips on how to concoct something so viral that it spreads despite being completely man-made.

It comes after it was revealed that the Sunday Telegraph pretended that a widely available document from the US State Department suggested that the Wuhan Labs had been used to create a man-made version of the virus, even though the document contained no such evidence.

“We just study natural viruses,” said the Director of the Wuhan Institute. “If you want to find an insitution that concocts and then spreads harmful man-made viral things across the globe, you should talk to the people at News Corp. They’re the experts at that.”

A spokesperson at News Corp denied they had concocted the story to try and seed anti-Chinese sentiment in the community. “We’re doing it for lots of reasons. The whole anti-China thing is just one of them.”
https://chaser.com.au/world/wuhan-labs-asks-newscorp-for-tips-on-virus-fabrication/


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## basilio (30 May 2020)

The risks of continuing COVID infections via trade shipping is a long term concern.
Clearly we can't just stop trading.

*The cruise ships have stopped, but now another coronavirus risk is looming off WA's coast*
Key points:

The Al Kuwait arrived in Fremantle just over a week ago
Since then about 20 of its crew have tested positive for COVID-19
Experts say it is a new reality facing import and export businesses
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05...ed-but-now-another-coronavirus-risk-/12301358


----------



## basilio (30 May 2020)

Donal Trump has decided to withdraw US support and participation in WHO.
I'm not even sure he can actually do this ? What will the House and the Senate have to say ?
And how will this decision enable the US CDC prepare for future epidemics ?

*Trump Takes U.S. Out of World Health Organization*
*— American Medical Association slams president's "senseless" actions*

Medical groups react

Patrice Harris, MD, president of the American Medical Association, called the president's actions "senseless" arguing that the U.S. needs all of its global partners to help in vaccine development and to defeat the virus.

"In the grip of a global pandemic that has already killed more than 100,000 Americans, severing ties with the World Health Organization (WHO) serves no logical purpose and makes finding a way out of this public health crisis dramatically more challenging. This senseless action will have significant, harmful repercussions now and far beyond this perilous moment, particularly as the WHO is leading worldwide vaccine development and drug trials to combat the pandemic," Harris said in a statement.

"COVID-19 affects us all and does not respect borders; defeating it requires the entire world working together. In the strongest terms possible, the American Medical Association urges the President to reverse course and not abandon our country's leadership position in the global fight against COVID-19."

The Infectious Diseases Society of America also objected to the president's action.

"As infectious diseases physicians on the front line of combating the current global crisis we stand strongly against President Trump's decision to leave the World Health Organization," said Thomas File Jr., MD, the group's president, in a press release. "This pandemic has demonstrated that neither national boundaries nor political positions can protect us from the spread of an infectious disease. We will not succeed against this pandemic, or any future outbreak, unless we stand together, share information, and coordinate actions."
https://www.medpagetoday.com/publichealthpolicy/publichealth/86775


----------



## Dona Ferentes (30 May 2020)

*There are more asymptomatic people than you think*

*Jill Margo*
_Health editor_

May 28, 2020

As Australia braces for a second wave of COVID-19, two new studies have highlighted the urgent need to determine how common and how infectious asymptomatic carriers really are. Australia needs to know this to sharpen its predictions of a second wave and design interventions.. 

The two, published on Thursday, have suggested being asymptomatic is very common. The first, an Australian study, showed eight out of 10 people aboard a cruise ship who tested positive had no symptoms. The second, a study of 78 Chinese patients from Wuhan, showed 42 per cent had no symptoms.

Epidemiologist Ivo Mueller from Melbourne’s Walter and Eliza Hall Institute of Medical Research says “determining the true infectiousness of asymptomatic carriers of all age must now be an urgent priority”

The Australian study led by Professor Alvin Ing of Macquarie University, was published in the journal _Thorax_. Although all 128 passengers and 95 crew screened negative for symptoms before boarding an Antarctic cruise, it found 59 per cent were infected at the end of it.

One or more aboard must have been asymptomatic or incubating the virus and therefore pre-syptomatic. A total of 132 tested positive. For each one with symptoms, four were asymptomatic.

Professor Mueller told the Australian Science Media Centre that if the same pattern is repeated in countries that only test symptomatic cases, the true burden of infections may be five times higher than currently reported.

Although the high infection rate shows how infectious this virus can be in a confined environment, there were cases where only one passenger in a cabin got infected. This may be due to inaccurate testing. It is possible that some adults with very low, asymptomatic infections may be less infectious.

The ship set sail in mid-March after COVID-19 had been declared a global pandemic. Passengers who, in the previous three weeks, had passed through countries with high infection rates were not allowed to board. The first case of fever was reported on day eight, prompting the immediate adoption of infection control measures.  As the ship had no contact with other people for 28 days it was effectively an hermetically sealed environment.

The Chinese study, published as a letter to _JAMA Network Open_, showed *asymptomatic people had milder illness*, were more likely female and only shed the virus for eight days compared to 19 days for those with symptoms. They also sustained less damage to their immune systems and had less liver injury. As they were relatively concealed, the authors say it is critical they be identified and isolated as early as possible.

Associate Professor Sanjaya Senanayake, an infectious diseases expert at the Australian National University, says it is not clear if they went on to develop symptoms or some form of malaise.

He says the proportions of asymptomatic cases have differed in other studies from 40 per cent in Iceland, to 18 per cent on a cruise ship, to 30 per cent in Japanese evacuees from Wuhan. Another Chinese study pegged the number at 80 per cent.

“So, it's hard to know which is right," he told the ASMC. “We still don't know for sure the magnitude of the impact that they have on further transmission of cases. Do they generate lots of secondary cases or only a small proportion."


----------



## qldfrog (30 May 2020)

https://www.tctmd.com/news/lancet-covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-study-faces-data-integrity-questions
hydroxychloroquine hopes were basically destroyed by a recent Lancet report but it may not be all what it seems, there are now high suspicions that the negative report was somewhat very flawn, always remember of the billions involved and lost by major pharmas if such a simple non patented treatment was the solution, plus as Trump touted it, it can only be wrong right?
to get further details DYOR, but there is serious hope still that this could save many lives if allowed to be prescribed.https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/health/coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine.html
the study was supposed to have found more deaths in Australia than actually occurred overall.
This anti trump at all cost hysteria is probably now costing lives.


----------



## macca (30 May 2020)

It seems that locking people down inside could be causing the outbreak to spread, think ships, nursing homes, quarantine at home etc.


Stay-at-home recommendations may have been a bad idea. In New York, 66% of new hospital admissions for COVID-19 were individuals who had been sequestering at home
Chinese researchers have noted that a majority of outbreaks in the 320 municipalities reviewed were the result of indoor spread of the disease, with the home accounting for 79.9% of cases https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...d=20200528Z2&et_cid=DM547422&et_rid=881268999

This is about Doctors in USA using existing meds, 98% cure, no mention at all in the media.


Despite the fact that many critical care specialists are using treatment protocols that differ from standard of care, information about natural therapeutics in particular are still being suppressed by the media and is not received by critical care physicians
Five critical care physicians have formed the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Working Group (FLCCC). The group has developed a highly effective treatment protocol known as MATH+
Of the more than 100 hospitalized COVID-19 patients treated with the MATH+ protocol as of mid-April, only two died. Both were in their 80s and had advanced chronic medical conditions
The protocols call for the use of intravenous methylprednisolone, vitamin C and subcutaneous heparin within six hours of admission into the hospital, along with high-flow nasal oxygen. Optional additions include thiamine, zinc and vitamin D
COVID-19 kills by triggering hyperinflammation, hypercoagulation and hypoxia. The MATH+ protocol addresses these three core pathological processes
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...d=20200529Z2&et_cid=DM547463&et_rid=882000979

Among all of the info and counter info the elephant in the room is that people with low Vitamin D seem to get a lot sicker than those with high Vitamin D. 

I am only guessing but I think that here in Oz we would have one of the higher Vit D ratios in the world many are light skin colour and most spend a lot of time outdoors. 

Perhaps that has helped us minimise the damage, living in separate house would also help a Lot. 

Now if we could only get everyone to wear a mask when in an enclosed place with strangers (mainly travelling) we are looking better


----------



## bellenuit (30 May 2020)

*Ozarks partygoer from Memorial Day weekend tests positive for COVID-19*

https://www.kshb.com/news/coronavir...92.893159792.1590795417-1449663002.1585356653


----------



## qldfrog (30 May 2020)

macca said:


> It seems that locking people down inside could be causing the outbreak to spread, think ships, nursing homes, quarantine at home etc.
> 
> 
> Stay-at-home recommendations may have been a bad idea. In New York, 66% of new hospital admissions for COVID-19 were individuals who had been sequestering at home
> ...



between reduced transmission risk with higher temperature and moisture level: worse  is 8C and 64% air humidity; we are actually quite well in australia except down south now, 
you can see obvious proof of that in italy and spain exposed regions, the very limited impact in africa and middle east, etcthe great results in summer area (southern hemisphere initially)
Add vit. C and D (already discussed a lot here) not that scary, bad but nowhere near as bad as the propaganda being hammered with


----------



## Humid (31 May 2020)

qldfrog said:


> between reduced transmission risk with higher temperature and moisture level: worse  is 8C and 64% air humidity; we are actually quite well in australia except down south now,
> you can see obvious proof of that in italy and spain exposed regions, the very limited impact in africa and middle east, etcthe great results in summer area (southern hemisphere initially)
> Add vit. C and D (already discussed a lot here) not that scary, bad but nowhere near as bad as the propaganda being hammered with




So what’s the motive behind the propaganda?


----------



## sptrawler (31 May 2020)

Humid said:


> So what’s the motive behind the propaganda?



Probably to try and increase the media audience, good news doesn't sell as well as bad news, you just have to read on this forum how much good news and positive input is posted?


----------



## Dona Ferentes (31 May 2020)

to me, the stay at home lockdown was not about being indoors itself, but not mingling or mixing, and thus reduce transmission.

There is never a perfect outcome and, when unknowns dominate the scenarios, as they say, _prevention is better than cure._


----------



## basilio (31 May 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> to me, the stay at home lockdown was not about being indoors itself, but not mingling or mixing, and thus reduce transmission.
> 
> There is never a perfect outcome and, when unknowns dominate the scenarios, as they say, _prevention is better than cure._




*"There is never a perfect outcome" * .

Indeed.  Quarantining people in their homes will almost inevitably lead to other people in the house becoming infected if one person has the virus. But allowing people to mingle across the community would simply spread the virus much further.

It was always a tough decision. Quarantining households or whole communities has historically resulted in these outcomes. The alternative is just far worse.

There is a very powerful story of such self sacrifice during the plague in England in 1665.

* Eyam recalls lessons from 1665 battle with plague *
Coronavirus crisis has powerful echoes in the Derbyshire village that once self-isolated to save others

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/eyam-derbyshire-coronavirus-self-isolate-1665-plague


----------



## againsthegrain (1 June 2020)

Now the experts are saying it may have been created in a lab

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...t/news-story/6e0a211af696fa2f30d5e7306dbf4780


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## DB008 (3 June 2020)

*COVID-19 vaccine tracker*​Researchers worldwide are working around the clock to find a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2, the virus causing the COVID-19 pandemic. Experts estimate that a fast-tracked vaccine development process could speed a successful candidate to market in approximately 12-18 months – if the process goes smoothly from conception to market availability.

This tracker lists COVID-19 vaccine candidates currently in Phase 1-3 trials, as well as major candidates in pre-clinical stages of development and research. Information will be updated weekly.

_Tip - Change the entries from 10 to 50 and phase trial below - screenshot attached at bottom of post_

https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker​


*COVID-19 therapeutics tracker*​As the COVID-19 pandemic continues, researchers and manufacturers are moving potential therapeutics into clinical trials at a dizzying pace. To date, just two therapeutics are approved to treat COVID-19: Avigan (favilavir) in China and Italy, and Veklury (remdesivir) in Japan. The search is on to find treatment candidates that lower mortality rates and lessen the severity of COVID-19 while the world waits for vaccine candidates to reach the market.

Potential therapies are being examined in several large international trials. The largest, SOLIDARITY, is led by the World Health Organization (WHO). More than 100 countries have joined SOLIDARITY to evaluate high-profile treatment candidates for COVID-19, including remdesivir; and lopinavir/ritonavir with and without interferon beta-1a.

https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-therapeutics-tracker







​


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## sptrawler (3 June 2020)

Mass demonstrations, with people not wearing masks or social distancing, I suppose it is one way to achieve herd immunity.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/cor...death-toll-stands-at-102-20200602-p54ytt.html
*Protests in top 25 virus hot spots in United States ignite fears of contagion*
*By AP*


_As demonstrators flooded streets across America to decry the killing of George Floyd, public health experts watched in alarm — the close proximity of protesters and their failures in many cases to wear masks, along with the police using tear gas, could fuel new transmissions of the coronavirus.

Many of the protests broke out in places where the virus is still circulating widely in the population.
In fact, an Associated Press review found that demonstrations have taken place in every one of the 25 U.S. communities with the highest concentrations of new cases. Some have seen major protests over multiple days, including Minneapolis-St. Paul, Chicago, Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles_.

I guess the fact the riots, are in the same places where the virus has high transmission rates, tells us something.


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## dutchie (3 June 2020)

*Shocking New AP Report Shows WHO Actively Covered Up For China's Lies*

Millions around the world have pondered how the WHO could have possibly been so completely duped by Beijing during the early days of the outbreak in January, when the organization parroted lies about the virus and praised Beijing as a "model" of pandemic response. Prior reports by the Associated Press and other Western media organizations have exposed how Beijing withheld critical information about the virus (including evidence of human-to-human spread) for days while China gobbled up all the PPE and other critical medical supplies. 


After all, while we might not possess any direct evidence that the novel coronavirus leaked from a biolab in Wuhan, it's now become abundantly cleared that Beijing lied, and people died, *and the WHO failed in its mission to safeguard the public health of the most vulnerable nations.*
*

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/shocking-new-ap-report-shows-who-actively-covered-chinas-lies*


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## bellenuit (4 June 2020)

Note, I am not a pro-hydroxychloroquine advocate and absolutely think Trump's recommendation for it use was highly irresponsible. However, some recent studies on the dangers of its use are now highly suspect.
*
WHO to resume hydroxychloroquine trial after earlier halt over safety concerns*
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...oncerns?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

*Surgisphere: governments and WHO changed Covid-19 policy based on suspect data from tiny US company
*
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine


----------



## macca (4 June 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Note, I am not a pro-hydroxychloroquine advocate and absolutely think Trump's recommendation for it use was highly irresponsible. However, some recent studies on the dangers of its use are now highly suspect.
> *
> WHO to resume hydroxychloroquine trial after earlier halt over safety concerns*
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...oncerns?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
> ...




As I posted previously, the Doctors that first publicised its use only used it to improve the absorption of Zinc, they did not use it by itself.


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## IFocus (5 June 2020)

The issues around hydroxychloroquine  tiperfiyes what happens rushing to use a drug that hasn't faced proper trial testing, rolling the dice at best.


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## IFocus (6 June 2020)

Heres one for Macca re vitamins

*Vitamin K found in some cheeses could help fight Covid-19, study suggests*

*https://www.theguardian.com/science...k-could-help-fight-coronavirus-study-suggests*


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## qldfrog (6 June 2020)

IFocus said:


> The issues around hydroxychloroquine  tiperfiyes what happens rushing to use a drug that hasn't faced proper trial testing, rolling the dice at best.



I would highly disagree with that one as this compound has been used for 40y.
Now that the fake news around it has been debunked, will people try to guess why it is shot down thru even elaborate schemes?
hint: no patent anymore so no money in treatment using it


----------



## dutchie (6 June 2020)

IFocus said:


> Heres one for Macca re vitamins
> 
> *Vitamin K found in some cheeses could help fight Covid-19, study suggests*
> 
> *https://www.theguardian.com/science...k-could-help-fight-coronavirus-study-suggests*




Ahhhhh Cheese   ,  Edam, Gouda,.......


----------



## IFocus (6 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I would highly disagree with that one as this compound has been used for 40y.
> Now that the fake news around it has been debunked, will people try to guess why it is shot down thru even elaborate schemes?
> hint: no patent anymore so no money in treatment using it




Agree about its long time use but the testing for that use was for healthy people in a different environment the problem around using it for Covid is no testing for when, how much, who is suitable, what stage of the disease can it be given people are often at chronically ill with Covid deaths door etc etc all this takes years of testing such are  the controls require of any serious trials regarding drugs.

A friend of mine is involved in a blind drug trial currently and the controls are full on.

The rush for vaccines could well see another Thalidomide event, I wont be 1st in line to receive any unless it all gets out of control not that I am a antivaxer.


----------



## macca (6 June 2020)

IFocus said:


> Heres one for Macca re vitamins
> 
> *Vitamin K found in some cheeses could help fight Covid-19, study suggests*
> 
> *https://www.theguardian.com/science...k-could-help-fight-coronavirus-study-suggests*




Interesting but it is rather annoying that Vitamin D is not front page news, I cannot help but think that the media is deliberately avoiding any mention of it

It is a proven fact that good Vitamin D levels help with all Upper Respiratory infections, including the common cold and the flu.

If we gave all the vulnerable sickly people a bottle of 200 x Vitamin D for Christmas we would not need to be pretending to vaccinate people for the flu.

USA research shows that in a good year the vaccination is almost as good as Vitamin D, in a bad year the flu shot is not worth a crumpet.


----------



## macca (6 June 2020)

Better late than never, they really should be listening to me shouldn't they, this is what I advocated here on ASF months ago.

Am I smart, NO! but if there is an unbiased expert available I will listen to them, this is Exactly what Taiwan did Before Christmas.

How many people are now dead because Taiwan was not listened to by WHO, we all know why, should WHO bosses be considered culpable?

*WHO*
The World Health Organisation has updated its guidance to recommend that governments ask everyone to wear fabric face masks in public areas where there is a risk of transmission of COVID-19 to help reduce the spread of the pandemic disease.
In its new guidance, prompted by evidence from studies conducted in recent weeks, the WHO stressed that face masks were only one of a range of tools that can reduce the risk of viral transmission, and should not give a false sense of protection.
"We are advising governments to encourage that the general public wear a mask," the WHO's technical lead expert on COVID-19, Maria Van Kerkhove, told Reuters in an interview.
"And we specify a fabric mask – that is, a non-medical mask."

https://www.9news.com.au/world/coro...ehind-us/9be989e2-ee68-47d3-96c3-ff445809e16d

Surely we should all be wearing a mask when in enclosed spaces with strangers for an extended time, bus, train, plane etc


----------



## wayneL (7 June 2020)

Hmmm


----------



## MrChow (7 June 2020)

MrChow said:


> I'm predicting the next 3 months will have positive returns.
> 
> So June XAO higher than 5822.
> 
> Based on Coronavirus peaking and subsiding without too much damage, positive outlook for Q3 GDP to bounce back and avoid a Recession and no systematic shocks to the Financial System from spillage of current risk factors.




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/t...utbreak-discussion.35174/page-17#post-1060200

Done.


----------



## DB008 (9 June 2020)

Brazil is going a China

*Brazil stops reporting coronavirus death toll, as nation buckles under pandemic*​
Brazil has taken the extraordinary step of stopping coronavirus death reporting, in move critics claim is an attempt to hide the true toll of the disease in Latin America's largest nation.​
The move on Saturday came after months of criticism from experts that Brazil's statistics are woefully deficient, and in some cases manipulated, so it may never be possible to understand the depth of the pandemic in the country.​
Brazil's last official numbers showed it had recorded over 34,000 deaths related to the coronavirus, the third-highest number in the world, just ahead of Italy.​https://www.9news.com.au/world/coro...-america/9abfcddb-39f1-45ed-8a67-53d32406900a​


----------



## wayneL (10 June 2020)

I have three separate GPs as clients. Over the last week I have seen all three, the latest one this morning.

My question to them was do you think the government response was right, underdone, or overdone.

All three made similar comments that probably the initial response was underdone but subsequently, massively, comprehensively overdone.

FWIW


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## macca (14 June 2020)

It would seem the western world is Finally working out that Asia was right all along, perhaps that was why China bought all the masks they could find before telling the world about CV19

Mask up, no unnecessary crowds and carry on working, saves billions works just as well

First the USA then a German study last week found the mandatory use of masks slows growth in COVID-19 cases by 40 per cent.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-...an-hand-washing-us-study-20200614-p552fj.html


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## wayneL (14 June 2020)




----------



## wayneL (14 June 2020)




----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2020)

https://www.9news.com.au/world/coro...suggests/66033f41-fb10-4a5c-ba24-ba733119e93e
_"Sometime in the middle of January, there was a change that allowed the virus to become more infectious. It doesn't mean it's more lethal," Haseltine said.
"It makes it about 10 times more infectious."
Other researchers have suspected this. In April, Bette Korber of Los Alamos National Laboratory and colleagues published their concerns, also on BioRxiv, calling the D614G mutation "of urgent concern" because it had become by far the most common strain spreading in Europe and the US_.

Best of luck with the vaccine IMO.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 June 2020)

sptrawler said:


> https://www.9news.com.au/world/coro...suggests/66033f41-fb10-4a5c-ba24-ba733119e93e
> _"Sometime in the middle of January, there was a change that allowed the virus to become more infectious. It doesn't mean it's more lethal," Haseltine said.
> "It makes it about 10 times more infectious."
> Other researchers have suspected this. In April, Bette Korber of Los Alamos National Laboratory and colleagues published their concerns, also on BioRxiv, calling the D614G mutation "of urgent concern" because it had become by far the most common strain spreading in Europe and the US_.
> ...





sptrawler said:


> https://www.9news.com.au/world/coro...suggests/66033f41-fb10-4a5c-ba24-ba733119e93e
> _"Sometime in the middle of January, there was a change that allowed the virus to become more infectious. It doesn't mean it's more lethal," Haseltine said.
> "It makes it about 10 times more infectious."
> Other researchers have suspected this. In April, Bette Korber of Los Alamos National Laboratory and colleagues published their concerns, also on BioRxiv, calling the D614G mutation "of urgent concern" because it had become by far the most common strain spreading in Europe and the US_.
> ...



I think our international borders will be shut for a long time. Domestically we should be okay to getting back to normal.


----------



## qldfrog (15 June 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I think our international borders will be shut for a long time. Domestically we should be okay to getting back to normal.



That will probably be true with so many exemptions it will not be funny, but agree that for common people like us, prisoners in our own country
The jets will carry on as will lobbies target: os students and probably even migrants


----------



## Dona Ferentes (15 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> That will probably be true with so many exemptions it will not be funny, but agree that for common people like us, prisoners in our own country
> The jets will carry on as will lobbies target: os students and probably even migrants



One way travel with quarantine.... YES
Business travel ... diminished but happening, and likely quarantine... YES
Short term tourism... Nah


----------



## qldfrog (15 June 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> One way travel with quarantine.... YES
> Business travel ... diminished but happening, and likely quarantine... YES
> Short term tourism... Nah



You will not see business travel with 14days quarantine, that is a given so either we end up isolating ourselves from the world or we accept reopening
By 1/07 France is reopening to not only eu but selected other countries..
We could paradoxically pay a high economic price of our too? successful virus control.we eradicate it then are stuck in limbo
The cynical in me would see the solution in letting the virus..second wave ...develop a bit
If successful we rejoin the world if not, we start again the whole mess 6months after the rest of the world and end up really really screwed


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> That will probably be true with so many exemptions it will not be funny, but agree that for common people like us, prisoners in our own country
> The jets will carry on as will lobbies target: os students and probably even migrants



Overseas students must NOT be allowed back into our country. If they bring the virus back into Australia or they get the virus in Australia, they may end up taking a needed ICU bed for an Australian citizen. Australians must come first and Australians have sacrificed too much to allow this to happen.
It will be political suicide for the government to allow overseas students into our country while other nations around the world are being hit with second waves and/or are still crippled with the virus.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 June 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> One way travel with quarantine.... YES
> Business travel ... diminished but happening, and likely quarantine... YES
> Short term tourism... Nah




China is heading back into lockdown I hear. There is no way we can open our international borders, even with exemptions.
Can you imagine the outrage if Australia had to go back into lockdown again because the Federal government allowed the virus back into our nation, which caused a mass outbreak, that led to our hospitals being overwhelmed, where ICU beds were being occupied by foreigners.


----------



## basilio (20 June 2020)

More information about the early spread of the Coronavirus in Italy.
It would be interesting to see if there is any similar examples in the US or other countries.

*Italy: Covid-19 was present in two big cities two months before first case was detected*
The *coronavirus* was present in two large Italian cities in December, more than two months before the first case was detected, a national health institute study of waste water has found.

That suggests the virus appeared in *Italy* around the same time it was first reported in China.

Researchers discovered genetic traces of Sars-CoV-2 - as the virus is officially known - in samples of waste water collected in Milan and Turin at the end of last year, and Bologna in January, the ISS institute said in a statement seen by AFP on Friday.

*Italy*’s first known native case was discovered mid-February.

The results “help to understand the start of the circulation of the virus in *Italy*,” the ISS said.

They also “confirm the by-now consolidated international evidence” as to the strategic function of sewer samples as an early detection tool, it added.

The results feed into an effort by scientists around the world to trace the virus’s family tree.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...ster-figures-who-vaccine-doses-latest-updates


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 June 2020)

Why is Daniel Andrews so quiet about all the protests taking place in Melbourne?


----------



## basilio (20 June 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Why is Daniel Andrews so quiet about all the protests taking place in Melbourne?



Because it hasn't had an impact on COVID infections in Victoria.
There are 25 new infections which is a big jump. They have all been traced to existing outbreaks and people still congregating with families even when they know they have COVID 19.
_*Daniel Andrews* tells reporters that half of all the new cases in Victoria since April have been from family-to-family transmission. He says he is “disappointed” by the behaviour reported by health authorities.

I’m frustrated by it, I’m disappointed by it, but it’s appropriate that we be really upfront and describe it so people can understand what’s driving these numbers. 

We have had cases of people gathering in large numbers, everybody at their home or another family member’s home or a close friend’s home, even though they had been told to isolate in their own home.

 We have even had people who have tested positive and have been told to go home and isolate and instead they have gone to work. Instead, they have gone and visited loved ones in large numbers. We have had many stories, numerous stories, of families that have given it to each other and have then transmitted the virus to other families, who in turn have passed it on to a third group. 

*It is unacceptable that families anywhere in our state can, just because they want this to be over, pretend that it is.* It is not over.

....According to the press release distributed at the media conference in Melbourne this afternoon, the number of guests people can have in their home will be reduced to five, and restaurants and pubs will have to remain at the limit of 20 guests until at least 12 July.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...ses-as-australia-seeks-to-prevent-second-wave
_


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Because it hasn't had an impact on COVID infections in Victoria.
> There are 25 new infections which is a big jump. They have all been traced to existing outbreaks and people still congregating with families even when they know they have COVID 19.
> _*Daniel Andrews* tells reporters that half of all the new cases in Victoria since April have been from family-to-family transmission. He says he is “disappointed” by the behaviour reported by health authorities.
> 
> ...



*Coronavirus cases in Victoria rise by 18, including retail worker who attended Black Lives Matter protest (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/12368000)*

How can Daniel Andrews be so demanding on the rest of the citizens in Victoria, yet give those that protest a free pass.


----------



## basilio (21 June 2020)

_


Chronos-Plutus said:



			How can Daniel Andrews be so demanding on the rest of the citizens in Victoria, yet give those that protest a free pass.
		
Click to expand...



*Daniel Andrews’ simple message to protesters: ‘Go home!’*
...Mr Andrews said people should not be protesting.
“I think that we could not have been clearer and I have a message for the people out there protesting today. Go home! Go home!” he said.
“You’re not doing your cause any good. And you’re potentially putting other people at risk. Could I possibly be any clearer than that?”
“The protests the other weekend, we advised against it. We urged people not to do it.
“We allowed Victoria Police to play their role. It is for them to determine what an appropriate response is and they’ve been very clear about what their response would be.

“It was peaceful. But it was certainly not helpful when it comes to the general community view about where we’re at.
https://www.news.com.au/national/vi...e/news-story/04cf6c4095d33ee2a3d22968cbb4e646


_


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (21 June 2020)

basilio said:


> _
> *Daniel Andrews’ simple message to protesters: ‘Go home!’*
> ...Mr Andrews said people should not be protesting.
> “I think that we could not have been clearer and I have a message for the people out there protesting today. Go home! Go home!” he said.
> ...



Initially it looked like he had double standards. I have a bit more respect for Daniel Andrews now.


----------



## macca (22 June 2020)

Hopefully other nations will take notice, Indonesia has been studying the health of their CV19 victims

<<In one study which looked at data from 780 hospital patients in Indonesia, those with a vitamin D level between 20 nanograms per milliliter (ng/mL) and 30 ng/mL had a sevenfold higher risk of death than those with a level above 30 ng/mL. Having a level below 20 ng/mL was associated with a 12 times higher risk of death. >>
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...d=20200622Z2&et_cid=DM573746&et_rid=899317044

People with dark skin need much more exposure to sunlight than people with lighter skin to make the same amount Vit D.

Those living on colder climates are often deficient in Vit D, especially older people who tend to stay indoors.

Not a coincidence that they have had such a terrible time with Vit D  in Northern Hemisphere


----------



## basilio (22 June 2020)

The ABC has a detailed analysis of the current outbreaks and hot spots for COVID 19.
Its interesting to see that the outbreaks are largely associated with a few families which seem to have spread the virus through various extended family members and the schools their children attend.

*Why Hume, Casey, Brimbank, Moreland, Cardinia and Darebin are Victoria's coronavirus hotspots*
Six local government areas in Melbourne's west, north and south-east are under the spotlight as identified hotspots for coronavirus transmission.

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews said family gatherings and people not remaining in self-quarantine while COVID-positive had led to a recent surge in community transmission of coronavirus in particular areas.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06...s-in-melbourne-victoria-darebin-hume/12379090


----------



## basilio (22 June 2020)

This article expands on the ABC story.

Interestingly enough the BLM matter demonstartion appears to have resulted in no spread of any infection.
_*Did the black lives matter protests cause this uptick?*

On Monday the Victorian chief health officer said that it wasn’t the rallies that caused this rise in cases.

“I don’t think the Black Lives Matter protest has contributed. We are not seeing people who have clearly acquired it there,” he said on Monday.

On Monday Mikakos confirmed a fourth person who attended the protest tested positive, but it’s believed they did not acquire the virus there. They were a staff member at an H&M at Northland Shopping Centre in the local government area of Darebin, which is the centre of a small cluster.

Of the around 30,000 attendees only four cases have been recorded, with no evidence that the virus was transmitted at the protest._

ttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/22/coronavirus-victoria-covid-19-melbourne-outbreak-hotspots


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2020)

basilio said:


> This article expands on the ABC story.
> 
> Interestingly enough the BLM matter demonstartion appears to have resulted in no spread of any infection.
> _*Did the black lives matter protests cause this uptick?*
> ...



Bit hard to believe. 
Did they trace every person at the rally?
Bit early to make this claim imo. 

If it's true then they need to re-open the economy.


----------



## basilio (22 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> Bit hard to believe.
> Did they trace every person at the rally?
> Bit early to make this claim imo.
> 
> If it's true then they need to re-open the economy.




Che ? The rally was 18 days ago.  So far 4 people have turned up with COVID who were at the rally. However the medics have established that they became infected through other contacts.

The rally didn't cause any infections. However a handful of families are spreading the virus which is why the government is tightening controls. That was the main point of the stories I posted.


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Che ? The rally was 18 days ago.  So far 4 people have turned up with COVID who were at the rally. However the medics have established that they became infected through other contacts.
> 
> The rally didn't cause any infections. However a handful of families are spreading the virus which is why the government is tightening controls. That was the main point of the stories I posted.



How do they know?
Covid isn't always serious enough to go to hospital. It's a bit early to say no one caught anything unless they went to every protestor and checked.


----------



## basilio (22 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> How do they know?
> Covid isn't always serious enough to go to hospital. It's a bit early to say no one caught anything unless they went to every protestor and checked.




Absolutely.  And your welcome to make up any figure you want about how many people were infected at the demo....100, 500, 1000 ? 
Having said that... If in fact there was any significant infections by now these people would have passed it along to family and friends. It would be spreading rapidly. One would think these would eventually be  picked up as illnesses or random testing.

But that hasn't happened.

The causes of the current community spread outbreaks have been identified. If you read the story you would be alarmed at how quickly and easily it seems to move through the extended family groups and into schools etc. There has been no suggestion that any of these outbreaks had anything to do with the rally.


----------



## qldfrog (22 June 2020)

Vit D
Not a coincidence that they have had such a terrible time with Vit D in Northern Hemisphere
Especially in winter
Question: how much money is there in asking people to get some sun and buy 20$ worth of supplement for the next 6 month?

Not much, better lock them down in the south under rain and clouds


----------



## moXJO (22 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Absolutely.  And your welcome to make up any figure you want about how many people were infected at the demo....100, 500, 1000 ?
> Having said that... If in fact there was any significant infections by now these people would have passed it along to family and friends. It would be spreading rapidly. One would think these would eventually be  picked up as illnesses or random testing.
> 
> But that hasn't happened.
> ...



Ok so let's all gather into groups of a thousand because apparently that's safe


----------



## qldfrog (23 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> Ok so let's all gather into groups of a thousand because apparently that's safe



Proof if need be of the not so dramatic effects of the virus on most of people.unless it is linked to brain cells count,


----------



## wayneL (23 June 2020)

Tin foil hats, anyone?


----------



## basilio (23 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> Ok so let's all gather into groups of a thousand because apparently that's safe




Droll moXjo.  Very droll.


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2020)

Well as we alluded to when this discussion started, someone knew this virus had long term issues, as was shown by the dramatic response IMO.
https://www.theage.com.au/world/eur...-long-term-health-damage-20200623-p5555s.html


----------



## moXJO (23 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Droll moXjo.  Very droll.



Thats 2020


----------



## orr (23 June 2020)

From the Jenner Institute
Press updates in this link are worth keeping an eye on;
https://covid19vaccinetrial.co.uk/


----------



## moXJO (23 June 2020)

I saw an article saying that the virus was weakening in Italy. It was now less likely to kill you.


----------



## macca (23 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Vit D
> Not a coincidence that they have had such a terrible time with Vit D in Northern Hemisphere
> Especially in winter
> Question: how much money is there in asking people to get some sun and buy 20$ worth of supplement for the next 6 month?
> ...




If everyone who is "at risk" in the flu season was given a large bottle of Vit D at the autumn  solstice we would stop a lot of deaths every year.

Nothing is infallible because there are people who are going to die from other causes and their death is brought forward by CV19 and or the flu, sad but true.

I agree it would be nice if we could have a vaccine but one test in USA showed a 20% bad reaction in Healthy young people, bit of a worry when we are going to start with at risk people first.

Any vaccine is an unknown quantity, Vitamin D and exhalation masks are a known, proven defence against  nasty bugs from Asia, all we have to do is just DO it.................


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 June 2020)

A mate reports the pound in Hobart is devoid of prospective pets; all mutts have been homed


----------



## macca (23 June 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> A mate reports the pound in Hobart is devoid of prospective pets; all mutts have been homed




In NSW they have run out of greyhounds to be adopted which is extra good


----------



## spooly74 (23 June 2020)

Not sure what to make of this. Doesn’t sit well with me.

Did Government action at the time prevent deaths from rising further?
Should we have locked down earlier?

or ...



> We now have mortality data for the first few months of 2020 for many countries.
> 
> *Surprisingly, however, these increases did not begin before the lockdowns were imposed, but after. Moreover, in almost every case, they began immediately after. *Often, mortality numbers were on a downward trend before suddenly reversing course after lockdowns were decreed.


----------



## wayneL (24 June 2020)

Interesting overview of covid

https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/


----------



## spooly74 (25 June 2020)

wayneL said:


> Interesting overview of covid
> 
> https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/



From the link


> No 7. In many countries, up to two thirds of all extra deaths occurred in nursing homes, which do not benefit from a general lockdown. Moreover, in many cases it is not clear whether these people really died from Covid19 or from weeks of extreme stress and isolation.




https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...mentia-deaths-beyond-infections-research-says


----------



## SirRumpole (26 June 2020)

When you have people like these ignoring all the warnings and risks, then you wonder if we will ever get rid of this thing.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06...ng-blitz-underway-in-hotspot-suburbs/12393984


----------



## bellenuit (26 June 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> When you have people like these ignoring all the warnings and risks, then you wonder if we will ever get rid of this thing.




The US has just recorded its largest daily increase in cases ever. 36k in a single day. The hot spots are no longer in the NE, but in the South where the risks have been downplayed by religious leaders, mainly republican governors and of course the super spreader in chief himself.


----------



## moXJO (26 June 2020)

*How did The Lancet's now-retracted study on hydroxychloroquine make it through peer review?*

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/12324118

We all know how it did. Cancel culture....


----------



## IFocus (26 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> *How did The Lancet's now-retracted study on hydroxychloroquine make it through peer review?*
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/12324118
> 
> We all know how it did. Cancel culture....




Talked to the daughter the other day about peer reviewed research (has presented papers and reads zillions of papers) about how it worked .

Answer was (my interpretation) is mug punters taken them at face value.

For any to be worthy for her is 1st review and know the reviewers.

The discussion has to add up against the papers findings / data apparently a large percentage fail this basic step.

Check the data and how its obtained, method etc bla bla against the discussion.

And much much more technical stuff.

I don't honestly think its cultural.


----------



## moXJO (26 June 2020)

IFocus said:


> Talked to the daughter the other day about peer reviewed research (has presented papers and reads zillions of papers) about how it worked .
> 
> Answer was (my interpretation) is mug punters taken them at face value.
> 
> ...



In this instance it was an issue as Trump had mentioned it. So it was all about politics as one side said it was dangerous while the other were having a bath in it.


----------



## basilio (26 June 2020)

Why hindsight is called 2020 vision.


----------



## basilio (26 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> *How did The Lancet's now-retracted study on hydroxychloroquine make it through peer review?*
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/12324118
> 
> We all know how it did. Cancel culture....




Did you read explanation moXjo ? Do you want to check it out and see why it was retracted and interestingly which media organisation  sussed it out.


----------



## sptrawler (26 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Did you read explanation moXjo ? Do you want to check it out and see why it was retracted and interestingly which media organisation  sussed it out.



What did they suss out?


----------



## qldfrog (26 June 2020)

For people still genuinely scared by the virus, i mean more than the flu:
https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistique...Wg-5PfYNGvKTb9qMfmsCFaxb-bZ92RqgcPc#Graphique
Mortality rste per 1000 in France which has been very hard hit 30k death
Can you see 2020 in the last 50y graph?..
This is not fake news straight from the french stat department


----------



## moXJO (26 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Did you read explanation moXjo ? Do you want to check it out and see why it was retracted and interestingly which media organisation  sussed it out.



I thought you would like it. 
Thought I might have got away without you reading it


----------



## basilio (27 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> I thought you would like it.
> Thought I might have got away without you reading it




Really ? After all this time you think I might not (actually)  check out a story ?


----------



## basilio (27 June 2020)

sptrawler said:


> What did they suss out?



Check it out SP via teh link or ask MoxJo.  He thought it was special..


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Really ? After all this time you think I might not (actually)  check out a story ?



Must be the teacher in you- going through every line of an article.

Unlike me, sometimes I take a guess at an article just run my mouth.


----------



## basilio (28 June 2020)

This story goes into the detail of how COVID 19 is totally out of control in the US and why this happening.

*Like leaning into a left hook': coronavirus calamity unfolds across divided US *
*In a week that saw the worst day on record for new cases, Trump shrugs as experts warn Americans not to follow his lead *

* Ed Pilkington in New Yo*

A disaster is unfolding in Montgomery, Alabama, where Martin Luther King preached and where Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to give up her seat on the bus. Hospitals are running short of drugs to treat Covid-19, intensive care units are close to capacity, and ventilators are running short.
*https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/27/coronavirus-cases-us-trump-politics-masks*


----------



## macca (28 June 2020)

The real reason is that people in the USA refuse to follow the guidelines, there has been plenty of examples of people marching, gathering, waving guns around and simply refusing to go home.

They seem to think that it is a city problem not a nationwide problem, many refuse to wear masks because they may get shot when entering a shop.

Crazy place, I am glad I don't live there


----------



## basilio (29 June 2020)

macca said:


> The real reason is that people in the USA refuse to follow the guidelines,




 Perhaps if the President gave some leadership, said this was a  very serious problem and that being careful with  social distancing and wearing masks will reduce the risk there could be some improvement ?


----------



## basilio (29 June 2020)

Ongoing effects of COVID 19 infections. This is no ordinary flu...

*Coronavirus's complications and health problems are being studied by scientists*
Key points:

In addition to respiratory distress, patients with COVID-19 can experience blood clotting disorders that can lead to strokes
The virus can also cause neurological complications that range from headaches, dizziness and loss of taste or smell to seizures and confusion
Studies are just getting underway to understand the long-term effects of infection
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-29/health-problems-caused-by-covid-19/12402852


----------



## macca (29 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Perhaps if the President gave some leadership, said this was a  very serious problem and that being careful with  social distancing and wearing masks will reduce the risk there could be some improvement ?




I doubt it, most of the rules are enforced by the states and they each have their own opinion on how it should be done, just like here !

When people march down the street waving guns around, refusing to stay home or even to stand 5ft apart then it is always going to be a problem

They could just give them a mask and a bottle of Vit D but they would not use either, them good old boys live in a world of their own (so I have read)


----------



## basilio (29 June 2020)

The overall picture of COVID 19 around the world is becoming very bleak indeed.
US is out of control with steeply rising infections. (It will take 2-3 weeks to see how this affects serious illnesses and deaths .)

India and Brazil are under huge pressure as numbers  grow. China has locked down 500,000 people. The overall numbers across the globe (and these are underestimates) are rising steeply.

* Global report: Covid-19 cases exceed 10m as anxieties rise over US *
Infections up in 29 US states; China imposes lockdown near Beijing; Israel warned it has ‘lost control’ of virus
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...19-cases-exceed-10m-as-anxieties-rise-over-us
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html


----------



## SirRumpole (30 June 2020)

Nobody is saying this out loud, but it looks like Victoria's spike arose at least in part in migrant communities who either can't speak English or who have cultural practices that involve large family gatherings that don't observe social distancing.

Should we be concerned about this, and what should we do about it ?


----------



## wayneL (30 June 2020)




----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2020)

It is interesting the media hasn't found a way of blaming the politicians, for the virus resurgence, well not yet anyway.


----------



## qldfrog (30 June 2020)

wayneL said:


>




true in France, no peak of mortality outside what was seen in previous years, and that is after 30,000 deaths from the virus.mostly pushing people over the edge who would be dead anyway by now (1/3 in aged care), and the 2/3 remaining mostly very sick or aged people.not ALL but most aka 90% or so
Not downplaying but now we have knowledge, covid-19 is not too bad, avoid by all mean but not a death sentence
Which you can see on the TV french news when celebrations at the council elections yesterday were mostly mask free and huggings right and left, not exactly expected of a country supposedly one of the worst affected in the world...and sorry..yes..worse than Trump USA per population .

But they do not know, do they?

You will be happy to know you can now visit France again, coming from Australia or New Zealand, 
or even coming from China but only if French people are allowed in China.....


----------



## SirRumpole (30 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Not downplaying but now we have knowledge, covid-19 is not too bad, avoid by all mean but not a death sentence




Reports have been posted on this site about long term lung damage, blood clotting causing strokes, inflammatory diseases in children etc. 

I hope these reports are exaggerated, but I think we need top confirm that before we open the gates again.


----------



## rederob (30 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> true in France, no peak of mortality outside what was seen in previous years, and that is after 30,000 deaths from the virus.



Again @qldfrog has abused data to make false claims.
Here's what the data actually looks like for France and a few other countries:





What epidemiologists have concluded from mortality data is that most nations have not reported the likely totality of COV19 deaths given that the majority has occurred amongst the aged who have also had an underlying health issue noted as their cause of death.  It is also the case, as acknowledged by New York and Britain, that many aged people who died were never tested for COV19.
The other observation is that in some countries COV19 has clearly suppressed the mortality rate from other factors.
Ironically, Sweden, which has had a high initial COV19 death rate, has actually dropped below the curve for *all expected deaths*.


----------



## qldfrog (30 June 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Reports have been posted on this site about long term lung damage, blood clotting causing strokes, inflammatory diseases in children etc.
> 
> I hope these reports are exaggerated, but I think we need top confirm that before we open the gates again.



It is a choice between certain economic collapse for the whole of us or maybe a potential risk for a few of us.
As i said, do you really think people who experienced the full blown of it,with no gov propaganda to lessen the issues, would behave all that "carelessly" if the thread was as big as imagined by aussies/our media here
There is no doubt in my mind that we are damaging killing more people than the virus would.
As i am  sure you remember, i was not downplaying this in January.
But knowledge and experience should be taken into account.
Being always behind offers some comfort but rarely economic advantages, sadly for Australia as we are pretty good at being behind:-(


----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2020)

Apparently if you live in these 10 postcodes, you have to stay inside, or get fined. 
It will be interesting to see how that works out, didn't they ask people not to go to marches a couple of weeks back and that didn't work.
Interesting times.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/coronavir...to-leave-home-strict-new-rules-054516156.html


----------



## macca (30 June 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Nobody is saying this out loud, but it looks like Victoria's spike arose at least in part in migrant communities who either can't speak English or who have cultural practices that involve large family gatherings that don't observe social distancing.
> 
> Should we be concerned about this, and what should we do about it ?




People of those communities usually do not get much sun on their skin, Vitamin D deficiency is rife (according to USA research) within such people

Low Vit D (20<)  has a 12 times greater of risk of dying than >50 Vit D, 40 is regarded as minimal requirement in Oz.


----------



## macca (30 June 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Apparently if you live in these 10 postcodes, you have to stay inside, or get fined.
> It will be interesting to see how that works out, didn't they ask people not to go to marches a couple of weeks back and that didn't work.
> Interesting times.
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/coronavir...to-leave-home-strict-new-rules-054516156.html




No doubt everyone within those postcodes will know the 4 reasons and plan accordingly.

If there have been no deaths then it may be building herd immunity.

Research in Suisse shows that people rarely have antibodies which suggests that 5 times as many people may have already had CV19 than recorded


----------



## sptrawler (1 July 2020)

It is funny we criticise the U.S people for irrational behaviour, but in reality are we any better?
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-hawthorn-east-work-site-20200701-p557wb.html


----------



## sptrawler (2 July 2020)

The outcome of this inquiry will be interesting reading.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/coronavir...-with-guests-melbourne-hotspot-022025049.html

Claims of widespread rorting and misconduct have rocked the security firms responsible for patrolling Melbourne's hotel quarantine regime.

Companies charged taxpayers for shifts never worked, leading to less security workers on duty and higher risk of infections, The Herald Sun reports.

The publication also revealed sources have informed them guards slept with guests while personnel had inadequate personal protective equipment and training.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The outcome of this inquiry will be interesting reading.
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/coronavir...-with-guests-melbourne-hotspot-022025049.html
> 
> Claims of widespread rorting and misconduct have rocked the security firms responsible for patrolling Melbourne's hotel quarantine regime.
> ...




People have to end up in gaol over this I reckon, so that the rest of us get the message that stupidity spreads the virus.


----------



## rederob (2 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> People have to end up in gaol over this I reckon, so that the rest of us get the message that stupidity spreads the virus.



Quarantining arrangements have been a real joke in Australia.
They should have landed them all at a secure facility - like they did at Christmas Island - and then flown them back in to Australia once they tested negative.  Instead we have spent hundreds of millions in 4/5 star accommodation with shonky security and no regular testing.
We have been luckier in most other States, more likely due to the tyranny of distance.
And a quick by the way: anyone thinking land border crackdowns are worth the effort are in lala land.  I have friends and relatives that in total would have crossed the QLD/NSW border many dozens of times in the past few months and have never been tested either way. 
Note the PPE worn by police as they receive and return documentation handed to them:


----------



## SirRumpole (2 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Quarantining arrangements have been a real joke in Australia.
> They should have landed them all at a secure facility - like they did at Christmas Island - and then flown them back in to Australia once they tested negative.  Instead we have spent hundreds of millions in 4/5 star accommodation with shonky security and no regular testing.




I agree. Even now they should be taken to some Army barracks and isolated. Self or hotel isolation is a joke.


----------



## sptrawler (2 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I agree. Even now they should be taken to some Army barracks and isolated. Self or hotel isolation is a joke.



The Victorian debacle really needs to be clamped down on hard and fast IMO, if this gets out of control you can kiss a lot of industries and jobs good bye, all this hassle for the last 4 months going up in smoke.
I know with my daughter, she took all her long service leave and holidays at half pay, to make sure she didn't get it. Now she is back at work she has nothing left to take. 
At least with W.A McGowan isn't bending on the border.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Claims of widespread rorting and misconduct have rocked the security firms responsible for patrolling Melbourne's hotel quarantine regime.
> 
> Companies charged taxpayers for shifts never worked, leading to less security workers on duty and higher risk of infections, The Herald Sun reports.




I've no idea which companies were involved but I've had enough experience with contractors doing things for government to say I'm not in the slightest bit surprised.

There are good contractors certainly but there are duds too and if you don't know who the good contractors are and who the duds are then it's a gamble which sooner or later you loose.

The practical approach is put your own people on site to keep a check on what's going on.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've no idea which companies were involved but I've had enough experience with contractors doing things for government to say I'm not in the slightest bit surprised.
> 
> There are good contractors certainly but there are duds too and if you don't know who the good contractors are and who the duds are then it's a gamble which sooner or later you loose.
> 
> The practical approach is put your own people on site to keep a check on what's going on.




The problem is that your "own" people can be corrupt or stupid as well.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 July 2020)

Some interesting information on treatments.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...reatment-works-medication-remdesivir/12414604


----------



## Resignedtoit (2 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Some interesting information on treatments.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...reatment-works-medication-remdesivir/12414604





SirRumpole said:


> Some interesting information on treatments.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...reatment-works-medication-remdesivir/12414604



This is what the establishment  wants you to think SirRumpole. As ever the ABC is happy to regurgitate it without doing any real journalism. Here attached will point you in the real direction of what is going on:
http://www.francesoir.fr/amp/articl...ble-sur-le-covid-19?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## rederob (3 July 2020)

Resignedtoit said:


> This is what the establishment  wants you to think SirRumpole. As ever the ABC is happy to regurgitate it without doing any real journalism. Here attached will point you in the real direction of what is going on:
> http://www.francesoir.fr/amp/articl...ble-sur-le-covid-19?__twitter_impression=true



The ABC is indeed a lesser organisation due to cuts affecting their journalism.
While *FranceSoir* gets the info on Remdesivir right, it has zero to support to the thrust of its article except for reputational assassinations of 2 world renown  subject experts.
Except for Remdesivir the most up to date state of play regarding most clinical trials for the treatment of COV19 patients is found here.


----------



## wayneL (4 July 2020)

Interesting


----------



## macca (4 July 2020)

This is looking good, instead of a vaccine simply tell everyone to get some sunshine or get a Vit D pill into you every day.

French Govt : The French National Academy of Medicine stresses the importance of vitamin D against COVID-19 and recommends everyone take supplemental vitamin D. For COVID-19 patients over 60, they recommend vitamin D testing, and if deficiency is found, a bolus dose of 50,000 to 100,000 IU

Scottish: 

As of June 3, 2020, Scottish government COVID-19 guidance includes taking a daily vitamin D supplement. As reported by the Scotland Herald:11

_"Official Scottish Government guidance issued on June 3 states that everyone, including children, 'should consider taking a daily supplement containing 10 micrograms of vitamin D.' _

_However, it is 'specifically recommended' to all pregnant and breastfeeding women; infants and children under five years old; people from minority ethnic groups with dark skin such as those of African, African-Caribbean and South Asian origin, who require more sun exposure to make as much vitamin D; and people who are confined indoors."_

Irish:

Examples of these correlation studies include The Irish Longitudinal Study on Ageing (TILDA),16,17 which suggests vitamin D deficiency could have serious implications for COVID-19. The researchers recommend adults over 50 take a vitamin D supplement year-round if they don't get enough sun exposure to optimize their levels.

Another Irish paper,18 "Vitamin D and Inflammation: Potential Implications for Severity of COVID-19," concluded there is "a strong plausible biological hypothesis and evolving epidemiological data supporting a role for vitamin D in COVID-19."

UK

In the UK, there's the Covidence UK Study,6 an effort to collect data about how vitamin D deficiency impacts your COVID-19 risk. If you live in the U.K., you can sign up for the Covidence UK study here. According to Adrian Martineau, a professor of respiratory infection and immunity at Queen Mary University of London, who is leading the Covidence study:7

_"Vitamin D could almost be thought of as a designer drug for helping the body to handle viral respiratory infections. It boosts the ability of cells to kill and resist viruses and simultaneously dampens down harmful inflammation, which is one of the big problems with Covid."_

*British Health Care Workers Get Free Vitamin D *
Aside from the French, Scotland and the U.K. are also starting to take vitamin D optimization more seriously. For example, the British Frontline Immune Support Team is providing U.K. National Health Service workers with free liposomal vitamin C, vitamin D and zinc packs to bolster and regulate their immune function.8 As noted by The Frontline Immune Support Team, vitamin D:9

USA
<<The French recommendations are in stark contrast to the U.S., where Big Pharma-controlled health authorities and media are still trying to frighten people away from vitamin D supplementation. One reason for this could be because a healthier population is less likely to line up for inoculation with a fast-tracked vaccine. >>

The USA comment could be deemed to be political or influenced but in todays world of internet access if Vit D works then it will spread.

Australia needs to tell people get some sunshine or take Vit D and we can beat this thing, no surprise the really bad cases in Victoria are in people who do not get much sun on their skin.


----------



## wayneL (5 July 2020)

I have been wondering about this point


----------



## qldfrog (5 July 2020)

macca said:


> Research in Suisse shows that people rarely have antibodies which suggests that 5 times as many people may have already had CV19 than recorded



Same in France infection rate is MUCH higher than initially though, even normal blood test samples do not detect many previously infected persons, death rate is VERY low...
What a scam, probably not worst than the last big bird flu.
Get bloody vitamin D, wear a mask if at risk or on your death bed.
Lately, strain becoming milder as well..or just realising many more infected wo any real issue
So back to my thread about why, and how to profit


----------



## qldfrog (5 July 2020)

Vitamin D, and the lockdown closed beaches and winter resorts where Europeans can get sun....


----------



## basilio (6 July 2020)

Interesting but  no surprise to see the way The Herald Sun and The ABC report the same news on the Victorian Governments response to the corona virus outbreak.

*Herald Sun*
1) Details emerge of the secret plot (?)  to use airline staff in quarantine plagued hotel
*
ABC*
1) Flight attendants and baggage handling staff from Qantas and Jetstar have been brought in to work in Melbourne's quarantine hotels, but won't be involved in security work.








*Why Melbourne's public housing towers have 'explosive potential' for coronavirus to spread*
Nine Melbourne public housing estates are in their third day of a "hard lockdown", brought about by fears coronavirus has the "explosive potential" to spread within the units.
Victoria's Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton said the measures were in place because the environment was "desperately challenging".
That's because of a range of factors, like density, cleanliness and the jobs of many people living inside.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...ublic-towers-are-a-coronavirus-worry/12423934


----------



## rederob (6 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Interesting but  no surprise to see the way The Herald Sun and The ABC report the same news on the Victorian Governments response to the corona virus outbreak.
> 
> *Herald Sun*
> 1) Details emerge of the secret plot (?)  to use airline staff in quarantine plagued hotel
> ...



What's funny about it is that the Herald Sun has not worked out that "lockdowns" worked in Wuhan, in Italy soon after, then followed by many other nations, and just last week a "hard lockdown" commenced in Leicester based on international experience.


----------



## Knobby22 (6 July 2020)

My wife with others packed bread and gave it to the lockdown housing commission flats. Proud of her.


----------



## Klogg (6 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> My wife with others packed bread and gave it to the lockdown housing commission flats. Proud of her.



Good on her


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2020)

Good to see you @basilio and Rob, picking up on negative portrayal of events, to reflect badly on politicians. I've been noticing it a bit over the last 3-4 years.
They seem to also only posses very condescending or smirking photo's of some politicians, which they use to great effect, to portray them in the worst light.


----------



## qldfrog (7 July 2020)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-06/aerosol-transmission-of-covid-19/12425852
@Knobby22  that is why i am not as sad as you about the funding cuts to UN and similar organisation.
In a better world, yes great idea, sadly they have mostly become bloated corrupt parasite..the who being a very relevant example.
But we need a collaborative network, on health, conflict resolution etc.
I have personally given up on any hope of internal rebirth of these monsters.
Anyway, another reason you should wear masks in public and enclosed spaces if scared


----------



## Knobby22 (7 July 2020)

The UN was set up to help the world work together and prevent war. Australia and the USA was a main instigator.

It has been fairly successful but is now under attack from powerful interests as well as nationalists and powerful nation states especially China and the USA.

What is needed is reform not destruction to meet the challenges of the future.

The conspiracy theorists believers worry about world government. The truth is  that the  UN has never been weaker. This is bad for Australia.


----------



## rederob (7 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-06/aerosol-transmission-of-covid-19/12425852
> @Knobby22  that is why i am not as sad as you about the funding cuts to UN and similar organisation.
> In a better world, yes great idea, sadly they have mostly become bloated corrupt parasite..the who being a very relevant example.
> But we need a collaborative network, on health, conflict resolution etc.
> ...



You post a stream of poorly informed comments.
The WHO admin budget would not run the new Sunshine Coast hospital, yet it has to coordinate medical support and health measures for every country on the planet confronting major concerns.   
Not supporting the WHO again shows how disconnected the USA is from the rest of the world nowadays.


----------



## rederob (7 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Good to see you @basilio and Rob, picking up on negative portrayal of events, to reflect badly on politicians. I've been noticing it a bit over the last 3-4 years.
> They seem to also only posses very condescending or smirking photo's of some politicians, which they use to great effect, to portray them in the worst light.



Politicians don't need any amplification of their ongoing ineptitude.
With regard to the specific issue of "lockdowns," they are a proven method to control disease spread, any disease.
Journalists who don't understand the extent that lockdowns have been effective and instead choose a political slight to their commentary are merely propagandists.
The USA today is a classic example of where medical science and politics are at odds. Almost 1% of the US population has now tested positive for COV19 and the rate of spread is actually increasing.  Fauci is on the record as realising the USA is "out of control" but Trump insists there is nothing to worry about.


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2020)

This looks like a possible answer for the long term problem, in the event a vaccine isn't found.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...l-for-covid-19-treatment-20200706-p559k4.html
From the article:
On Monday evening the company's Philadelphia, Pennsylvania office confirmed approximately 124 adult patients who have tested positive for coronavirus would take part in a randomised trial where they would receive either CSL's monoclonal antibody CSL312 or a placebo.
CSL312 is also called Garadacimab and is an antibody treatment that inhibits the plasma protein, FXIIa. It is hoped the treatment will be useful in preventing the progression of coronavirus once patients experience respiratory distress and could be another tool for doctors to use in the fight against the virus.

"Whether it is preventative with vaccines, or preventing progression with a hyperimmune, or using our monoclonal antibodies, like CSL312, to help people who are experiencing severe respiratory complications, CSL has taken on projects we think make sense both scientifically and that fit our capabilities."

According to CSL's application for the clinical trial made to US regulators, it is estimated the trial could be completed by December.


----------



## basilio (7 July 2020)

*Self help in the Tower lockdown.*

Residents within the towers are also mobilising themselves to help their neighbours where they can, as *Melissa Davey* reports:

Residents inside the nine public housing towers under lockdown translated an information sheet about the restrictions and public health measures needed to contain Covid-19 into 10 different languages. This information was distributed within the affected buildings via social media and text messaging in just 24 hours.

An infectious disease physician, Dr *Chris Lemoh*, who works with culturally and linguistically diverse communities at a Melbourne public hospital, said he had been in contact with several people inside the tower blocks in Flemington and North Melbourne which are now being surveilled by police to ensure residents do not leave while they undergo Covid-19 testing after a cluster of cases in the buildings.

“*Some residents put together an information sheet and they translated that into 10 written and five oral languages within 24 hours and distributed it among their networks in order to help get government messaging across,” Lemoh said. *

*“I’ve been involved in public health projects like this and if the government had to do this on their own, it would have taken them at least six months to get that kind of translation work done.”*
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...der-lockdown-covid-19-police?page=with:block-5f03a6f48f08470ce832235b#block-5f03a6f48f08470ce832235b


----------



## SirRumpole (7 July 2020)

If we had an English test as a condition of entry we wouldn't have to go to the trouble of translators.


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If we had an English test as a condition of entry we wouldn't have to go to the trouble of translators.



You'll be sent to the naughty corner, with statements like that.


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2020)

Interesting how the Victorian flare up, seems to happened since that big demonstration, probably has nothing to do with it .

Well it sounds like another 6 weeks of hard lockdown in Melbourne, better get the toilet paper in.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/cor...death-toll-stands-at-106-20200706-p559it.html

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...-lockdowns-as-coronavirus-cases-rise/12429990


----------



## rederob (7 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If we had an English test as a condition of entry we wouldn't have to go to the trouble of translators.



You might be *court *out Rumpy.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (7 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If we had an English test as a condition of entry we wouldn't have to go to the trouble of translators.



would have worked a treat, my Gaelic speaking convict forbears may have missed out of Life Interrupted


----------



## spooly74 (8 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Not to give a lesson but
> How to look at figures
> One take death by coronavirus
> Sweden if you like
> ...





Covid looks like its running out of hosts to kill in Sweden.
Steady decline in deaths with rising infections is what herd immunity should look like.
Here is a comprehensive analysis of the situation in Sweden with the info you're looking for.

https://softwaredevelopmentperestro...-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-corona-sweden/

When the dust settles I'd like to see a Yes/No Referendum on whether Governments should have the power to quarantine healthy people ever again.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 July 2020)

spooly74 said:


> When the dust settles I'd like to see a Yes/No Referendum on whether Governments should have the power to quarantine healthy people ever again.




Healthy today doesn't mean healthy tomorrow.


----------



## sptrawler (8 July 2020)

Someone fined $4,000, for trying to enter Queensland on a bus, with a fake border pass. Now that is scary.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=CMWEB_WRE170_a_TCA_PC&dest=https://www.couriermail.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts/man-cops-huge-fine-after-fake-boder-declaration-atempt/news-story/0c5882133ed117347c0453a4411317d2&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium


----------



## IFocus (8 July 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Covid looks like its running out of hosts to kill in Sweden.
> Steady decline in deaths with rising infections is what herd immunity should look like.
> Here is a comprehensive analysis of the situation in Sweden with the info you're looking for.
> 
> ...




I didn't think Sweden was about herd immunity it was about personal responsibility.


----------



## qldfrog (9 July 2020)

so let's quarantine everyone.I noted the flu killed thousand last year, let's eradicate it as well...
road accident, let's put the speed limit at 5k/h except for essential services.
, we should see a marked reduction in death, and traumas often associated..
everything is a choice, not more stupid to prevent road transport than








SirRumpole said:


> Healthy today doesn't mean healthy tomorrow.





IFocus said:


> I didn't think Sweden was about herd immunity it was about personal responsibility.



But will also be an herd immunity experience, especially with the very high percentage of people infected without noticeable symptoms who do not react/ appear with standard tests


----------



## qldfrog (9 July 2020)

Some interesting figures from studies:https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w
Less than one-third of people infected with SARS-CoV-2 fell ill with respiratory symptoms or fever, according to a survey of thousands of people in Italy
Worse,", 31% developed respiratory symptoms — such as a cough — or a fever; only 26% of those under the age of 60 did so. " 
So nearly 75% of people below 60 will not even know it, or will be detected by these thermometer guns leaving a plane.
 Whatever way you like it, it is mostly benign or to phrase it properly nowhere near as dangerous as we are told/knew in the past
How long before the people in Victoria start  rioting and demand freedom of movement.aged care and vulnerable populations can self protect.
Isn't it very similar of our attitude to peanut allergy where we forbid peanuts in school as to the danger of a few.
In a way, it is a fundamental view of our place in society
Freedom and self control/responsabilities vs nanny state or for the leftist around: sharing the cost/damage.
Equality vs equality of chance/opportunity.
That explain in my view the reaction of both governments but also individuals here on this forum and in the community.
And we will reach extreme as backlash is inevitable unless martial laws and even more extreme measures are adopted.we are at a stage where army and police is enforcing own citizens blocus.put that in 1984....
The big RESET or the takeover...


----------



## qldfrog (9 July 2020)

And why many more might have been contaminated than estimated now:
There are later confirmations of these but can not find a link
It is critical as all numbers rely on death and hospitalization per infected.if infection has benn more widespread than initially thought, this is a game changer
From nature link above

2 June — Could antibody tests downplay virus’s prevalence?

Antibody studies might underestimate the share of a population that has been infected with SARS-CoV-2.






*The researchers taking a gamble with antibody tests for coronavirus*
In response to a pathogen attack, immune cells produce molecules called antibodies, which can linger in the blood and provide a record of infection. Isabel Rodríguez-Barraquer at the University of California, San Francisco, and her colleagues identify a potential source of bias in tests that detect the presence of antibodies against the new coronavirus (S. Takahashi _et al._ Preprint at OSF Preprints http://doi.org/dxc2; 2020).

Most antibody tests have been validated using blood samples from people hospitalized with severe disease. But these individuals, who make up only a small fraction of infected people, might have higher levels of antibodies circulating in their body than have people with mild or no symptoms.

The researchers say more detailed studies are needed to assess how well antibody tests detect previous infection in people who had mild disease.

The findings have not yet been peer reviewed.


----------



## qldfrog (9 July 2020)

Lastly for the medical part, it seems we die not from the virus but from the inflammation caused by our body immune response...
For H1N1, young healthy people were reacting too strongly and dying, with Covid-19,they win quickly but weaker persons do not


----------



## SirRumpole (9 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> But will also be an herd immunity experience, especially with the very high percentage of people infected without noticeable symptoms who do not react/ appear with standard tests




The indications seem to be that immunity to covid may not last long.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/06/19/1004169/biggest-questions-about-immunity-to-covid-19/


----------



## qldfrog (9 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The indications seem to be that immunity to covid may not last long.
> 
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/06/19/1004169/biggest-questions-about-immunity-to-covid-19/



Possible and if so no vaccine
So you need fast propagation and high level of infections then over no more smooth the curve needed or idiotic eradication
Sweden..even if it hurts me as i am not a fan of the Scandinavian model, they lead the way


----------



## SirRumpole (9 July 2020)

Why do governments impose fines of $1652 or $4004 instead of $1700 or $4000 ?

Is that including GST ?


----------



## basilio (9 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Why do governments impose fines of $1652 or $4004 instead of $1700 or $4000 ?
> 
> Is that including GST ?




I think they have a particular starting point that is an even figure and then increases are arbitary by some percentage figure. Makes the next figure look silly.

At some stage someone will say "lets round this up"


----------



## rederob (9 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Why do governments impose fines of $1652 or $4004 instead of $1700 or $4000 ?
> 
> Is that including GST ?



Statutory fines and penalties are not subject to GST as there is *no supply* made in relation to the payments.  The odd amounts are often due to penalty indexing.


----------



## basilio (9 July 2020)

More understanding on how COVID 19 affects people. This is not just the flu.

*Coronavirus affects the blood vessels as well as the lungs. Understanding this may be key to treating it*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...ovid-19-respiratory-vascular-disease/12410684


----------



## SirRumpole (9 July 2020)

basilio said:


> More understanding on how COVID 19 affects people. This is not just the flu.
> 
> *Coronavirus affects the blood vessels as well as the lungs. Understanding this may be key to treating it*
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...ovid-19-respiratory-vascular-disease/12410684




Horrifying story on ABC News this morning about a singer in London who thought she was getting over covid, she put the kettle on and then couldn't breathe. She was rushed to hospital and doctors found a giant blood clot on her lung and were surprised that she was still alive.

Fortunately she's now recovered, but as you say it's not just the flu.


If I can find that story I'll post it here.

Here it is.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/ope...id-19-blood-clot-mystery-20200428-p54nts.html


----------



## SirRumpole (9 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> So nearly 75% of people below 60 will not even know it, or will be detected by these thermometer guns leaving a plane.




That's exactly the problem.

They will most likely pass it to someone who will be adversely affected, ie get very ill or die.

And it's why people have to be locked down until they can get tested.


----------



## qldfrog (9 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> That's exactly the problem.
> 
> They will most likely pass it to someone who will be adversely affected, ie get very ill or die.
> 
> And it's why people have to be locked down until they can get tested.



how often do you test weekly, daily,  hourly? most will never be sick and then if you test them, do you test they had it or they got it?
Can you make the difference? how high is the viral load..left ?
So many surrealistic simplified Fighting a virus for dummies ..
But that's ok, we wait for the fake vaccine
I think our qld gov should announce we found one.would save many lives, I can import saline solution for cheap from china..and still save lives overall..plus placebo effects, I have a winner


----------



## wayneL (10 July 2020)

Innerestin'


----------



## Klogg (10 July 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Covid looks like its running out of hosts to kill in Sweden.
> Steady decline in deaths with rising infections is what herd immunity should look like.
> Here is a comprehensive analysis of the situation in Sweden with the info you're looking for.
> 
> ...



This could also be the result of improvements in care for patients with COVID-19.

Whilst I agree with their approach, we can't jump to conclusions.


----------



## Klogg (10 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Someone fined $4,000, for trying to enter Queensland on a bus, with a fake border pass. Now that is scary.
> 
> https://www.couriermail.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=CMWEB_WRE170_a_TCA_PC&dest=https://www.couriermail.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts/man-cops-huge-fine-after-fake-boder-declaration-atempt/news-story/0c5882133ed117347c0453a4411317d2&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium




In our scramble for security, we've allowed our freedoms to be stripped away... It's really sad.


----------



## bellenuit (10 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Innerestin'





The quote from the lady regarding astronaut suits is about as inane as you will get. 

One goes to absolute extreme measure to contain a virus in the lab, like triple sealed doors etc. That is because one is aware of the damage and disruption it could do once escaped, as we have witnessed with COVID-19. It does not mean that once it has escaped (if that is how it originated) that we need to take the same measures to contain and eventually overcome it. Properly implemented use of masks, testing and social distancing clearly works to contain it and there are many countries/states who are proof of that, particularly in our own neck of the world.

Her quote is demonstrably wrong. Why would one regurgitate it?


----------



## wayneL (10 July 2020)

bellenuit said:


> The quote from the lady regarding astronaut suits is about as inane as you will get.
> 
> One goes to absolute extreme measure to contain a virus in the lab, like triple sealed doors etc. That is because one is aware of the damage and disruption it could do once escaped, as we have witnessed with COVID-19. It does not mean that once it has escaped (if that is how it originated) that we need to take the same measures to contain and eventually overcome it. Properly implemented use of masks, testing and social distancing clearly works to contain it and there are many countries/states who are proof of that, particularly in our own neck of the world.
> 
> Her quote is demonstrably wrong. Why would one regurgitate it?



The point was Montagniers information.

Didn't know how to exclude the other stuff, but I thought that might have been obvious


----------



## spooly74 (10 July 2020)

Klogg said:


> This could also be the result of improvements in care for patients with COVID-19.
> 
> Whilst I agree with their approach, we can't jump to conclusions.



Sweden had a large number of deaths associated with Nursing homes initially, and they're not alone in that regard. Well over 100k worldwide have died in nursing homes by my count.
But look at the figure for ICU admissions below for Stockholm, which was hardest hit. That's also on the decline with increased cases. 

I'll keep an eye on this but it doesn't bode well for Aus with trigger happy lockdown Govs in control. How the hell are we supposed to open up internationally? 
We're relying on a vaccine. 
That's our plan


----------



## rederob (10 July 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Sweden had a large number of deaths associated with Nursing homes initially, and they're not alone in that regard. Well over 100k worldwide have died in nursing homes by my count.
> But look at the figure for ICU admissions below for Stockholm, which was hardest hit. That's also on the decline with increased cases.
> 
> I'll keep an eye on this but it doesn't bode well for Aus with trigger happy lockdown Govs in control. How the hell are we supposed to open up internationally?
> ...



Swedish trends are nothing special; here's Denmark hospitalisations:




On a per capita basis Sweden had more than five times as many deaths. Denmark closed its borders 12 March from memory and a month later was opening its economy back up.
Here's how case numbers compared at date of lifting lmany lockdown measures:





I think a lot of what Sweden did has merit.  However, given the chance I would have jumped onto the Øresund bridge quick smart and headed west.


----------



## macca (10 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Swedish trends are nothing special; here's Denmark hospitalisations:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As I understand it Sweden did "nothing" just basically ignored it all.

I do think that if they had put exhalation masks on everyone and also social distanced where possible, they would have been a western version pf Taiwan etc 

I sincerely wished they had done so because it seems that Asian successes using this method are being ignored to the detriment of our lifestyle and financial well being here in Oz

We simply Cannot continue to lockdown, the virus has not gone away and will not go away any time soon, we cannot afford to panic and lock down millions of people every time 100 people get sick.

Reality has a nasty habit if raising it's ugly head in the worst possible way, we are going to bankrupt Oz then say we can do more................

Scomo stands up and says "We have run out of money so we have no option but to put on masks and hope for the best"

Which is exactly what the Asian countries done back in January without blowing billions of borrowed money


----------



## sptrawler (10 July 2020)

The numbers seem to increasing quickly in Victoria.


----------



## cynic (10 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The numbers seem to increasing quickly in Victoria.



Could this be correlated to an increased number of Victorians being tested for infection with the virus?


----------



## sptrawler (10 July 2020)

cynic said:


> Could this be correlated to an increased number of Victorians being tested for infection with the virus?



I would think so, lucky the media hasn't gone feral with it and ScoMo isn't involved.
So the media coverage, should remain balanced and sensible, which is good for everyone IMO.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> everything is a choice




Except being exposed to a virus isn't really a choice at all given that those with it seem unable to contain it to themselves.

Therein lies the problem - this isn't a situation where anyone has a choice, in practice the community gets a choice collectively but not individually.

As for road accidents, well an outright fortune has been spent on better roads, law enforcement, better cars and so on. Someone driving at 160 km/h up the highway in 1980 was at an order of magnitude greater risk than someone driving the same road at 110 km/h in a modern car today and the statistics clearly show that car travel, whilst still not perfect, has greatly improved in safety over the past 40 or so years.


----------



## qldfrog (11 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Except being exposed to a virus isn't really a choice at all given that those with it seem unable to contain it to themselves.
> 
> Therein lies the problem - this isn't a situation where anyone has a choice, in practice the community gets a choice collectively but not individually.
> 
> As for road accidents, well an outright fortune has been spent on better roads, law enforcement, better cars and so on. Someone driving at 160 km/h up the highway in 1980 was at an order of magnitude greater risk than someone driving the same road at 110 km/h in a modern car today and the statistics clearly show that car travel, whilst still not perfect, has greatly improved in safety over the past 40 or so years.



It would be order of magnitude safer if speed was limited to 5k an hour or traffic forbidden.why not?
Nothing prevent individuals from wearing mask or the people at real risk..above 65 to self isolate if they wish
Tuberculosis killing more and countries were not locked last year
Our while response , if not looking at conspiracy or pretext only, was built on improving knowledge initially smooth the curve which they overall did in Europe and then crazily here local eradication in the hope of a vaccine.we will end up with wasted lockdown no real vaccine and at best a few thousands deaths delayed by a year or 2 with millions suffering and ten of thousands suicides in the coming decades
That is the critical point when Australia decisively went the Argentina way. 
interesting to see if Spanish flu had a role in latin America collapses in the 20st century.will look


----------



## basilio (11 July 2020)

Overview of how the Trump administartion is dealing with the crisis.

 
* Fauci says he hasn’t briefed Trump in two months as Covid-19 cases rise *

President said public health expert ‘made a lot of mistakes’ while nearly 3.2 million have contracted the coronavirus

Donald Trump says Dr Anthony Fauci is “a nice man, but he’s made a lot of mistakes”. Fauci says he last saw Trump on 2 June and has not briefed him in two months.

The president was speaking to the Fox News host Sean Hannity. The most senior non-political member of the White House coronavirus taskforce and America’s top public health expert was having lunch with the Financial Times.

Meanwhile, nearly 3.2 million coronavirus cases have been recorded in the US and almost 133,000 people have died. More than 60,000 new cases were confirmed on Thursday, the latest in a succession of unwelcome records.

*States which reopened early, Arizona, Texas and Florida prominent among them, are facing steep rises in cases and crushing pressure on testing and hospital beds. Early hotspots, such as California, New York and New Jersey, are pausing or modifying reopening, or considering re-entering lockdown.*

“I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say we have a serious ongoing problem, right now, as we speak,” Fauci said. “What worries me is the slope of the curve. It still looks like it’s exponential.”

He continued: “I think we have to realise that some states jumped ahead of themselves. Other states did it correctly. But the citizenry didn’t listen to the guidelines and they decided they were going to stay in bars and go to congregations of crowds and celebrations.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/10/trump-fauci-covid-19-coronavirus-cases


----------



## jbocker (11 July 2020)

from their article
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/aust...-outbreaks/ar-BB16AnIv?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds


----------



## moXJO (11 July 2020)

jbocker said:


> View attachment 105840
> 
> 
> from their article
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/aust...-outbreaks/ar-BB16AnIv?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds



Why are leftist leaning state's so germy....


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Overview of how the Trump administartion is dealing with the crisis.
> 
> 
> * Fauci says he hasn’t briefed Trump in two months as Covid-19 cases rise *
> ...



Victoria isnt showing a great deal of leadership skills either.


----------



## basilio (11 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Victoria isnt showing a great deal of leadership skills either.




You think there is any comparison ?
Seriously ?


----------



## moXJO (11 July 2020)

basilio said:


> You think there is any comparison ?
> Seriously ?



Yes, they are leftist state's that plagued the rest of the country.


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2020)

basilio said:


> You think there is any comparison ?
> Seriously ?



I would say a stuff up is a stuff up, you cant blame one for stuffing up and not the other.
Everyone had no problem blaming Morrison for the Ruby Princess, then payjng out on The NSW Government and calling for an investigation.
As usual the media has very selective outrage.


----------



## IFocus (11 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> Yes, they are leftist state's that plagued the rest of the country.




WA.......left of the leftest Victoria ?

Its the right wing freedoms don't make me wear a mask are the problem 

TBH I think NSW has consistently messed up "Ruby Princess anyone?


----------



## moXJO (11 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> WA.......left of the leftest Victoria ?
> 
> Its the right wing freedoms don't make me wear a mask are the problem
> 
> TBH I think NSW has consistently messed up "Ruby Princess anyone?



We all know money talks in WA. 

NSW was at an early stage in our knowledge. 
Vic at a time after lockdown and they still progressively didn't give a fig. 

Yep, germy I say


----------



## IFocus (11 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> We all know money talks in WA.




One thing about the politicians back in the day (WA) is both sides cost the same


----------



## qldfrog (12 July 2020)

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04365309
Aspirin is good, not a surprise between anti inflammatory property and blood thinner 
Aspirin, vit D and not being already dying can help a lot.


----------



## rederob (12 July 2020)

cynic said:


> Could this be correlated to an increased number of Victorians being tested for infection with the virus?



The actual answer is *no for most States*.
The more relevant statistic is the "positivity rate."
Once the positivity rate increases it is essential to increase the testing regime.
Testing is continuing to be carried out in all States, even when no local transmissions have occurred week after week.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04365309
> Aspirin is good, not a surprise between anti inflammatory property and blood thinner
> Aspirin, vit D and not being already dying can help a lot.



Makes sense, an anti inflammatory. Probably should not take it though till you get symptoms as might reduce immune response.


----------



## qldfrog (12 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Makes sense, an anti inflammatory. Probably should not take it though till you get symptoms as might reduce immune response.



Yes to be honest i was probably click baiting a bit, covid19 remains a serious illness as is H1N1 or real flu.
But i remember one of the early advice was not to use aspirin if i remember well.we learnt a lot since.
It is sad WHO  is so useless as effective cooperation would help but when it takes the supposedly expert organisation months to actually recommend the use of masks, and local government protect their back by saying, we follow WHO....
Anyway another good news


----------



## Knobby22 (12 July 2020)

Who are slow acting as they are scared of upsetting governments and making a mistake. Basically weak leadership.

That said, I see some Australian scientists are arguing that the evidence shows that Covid does spread by large droplets and surfaces and no rf aerosol. 

What is WHO now? It needs to be able to direct research and fund experiments. It should be coordinating responses. In reality it has no authority, no funding and lack of expertise. A shadow of what it should be.


----------



## cynic (12 July 2020)

rederob said:


> The actual answer is *no for most States*.
> The more relevant statistic is the "positivity rate."
> Once the positivity rate increases it is essential to increase the testing regime.
> Testing is continuing to be carried out in all States, even when no local transmissions have occurred week after week.



Interesting comment.

Remembering that I was referring to "Victorians being tested", does your "actual answer" of "no for most States", apply to the State of Victoria, or is Victoria excepted?


----------



## macca (12 July 2020)

Well, if we ever needed proof that WHO is completely off with the fairies read this.............. just what exactly does he think the world needed and expected from WHO when this damn thing started

<<The director-general of the World Health Organisation has condemned a "lack of leadership" in fighting the coronavirus pandemic and made an emotional plea for global unity, as cases soar in multiple countries and the world struggles to contain the devastating virus more than six months after it was first identified.>>

https://www.9news.com.au/world/worl...p-threat/7096e17b-cdb6-4aee-80dd-d3e810fb4461


----------



## Dona Ferentes (12 July 2020)

macca said:


> Well, if we ever needed proof that WHO is completely off with the fairies read this....... just what exactly does he think the world needed and expected from WHO when this damn thing started
> 
> <<The director-general of the World Health Organisation has condemned a "lack of leadership" in fighting the coronavirus pandemic and made an emotional plea for global unity, as cases soar in multiple countries and the world struggles to contain the devastating virus more than six months after it was first identified.>>



more money please (and don't mention Taiwan)


----------



## rederob (12 July 2020)

cynic said:


> Interesting comment.
> 
> Remembering that I was referring to "Victorians being tested", does your "actual answer" of "no for most States", apply to the State of Victoria, or is Victoria excepted?



Victoria had the same trend as other States until the "second wave."  That is, ongoing testing was showing fewer cases.
However, the meaningful metric remains the "positivity rate."  Correlations excluding positivity are without value.
Trump claims more testing shows more cases.  Maybe so.  However, unless the positivity rate is declining then you will have a lingering epidemic.


----------



## rederob (12 July 2020)

macca said:


> Well, if we ever needed proof that WHO is completely off with the fairies read this.............. just what exactly does he think the world needed and expected from WHO when this damn thing started
> 
> <<The director-general of the World Health Organisation has condemned a "lack of leadership" in fighting the coronavirus pandemic and made an emotional plea for global unity, as cases soar in multiple countries and the world struggles to contain the devastating virus more than six months after it was first identified.>>
> 
> https://www.9news.com.au/world/worl...p-threat/7096e17b-cdb6-4aee-80dd-d3e810fb4461



I have followed this from the early days.
You should read what the WHO has advised.
You should also read and understand what the WHO cannot advise on as you will be surprised.
Taiwan did what the WHO advised as soon as they were aware there was a problem.  Korea did as well but got caught out by some religious fools who lied to border control. 
Most SE Asian countries adopted the WHO protocols post SARS as they had been previously affected.  
Most other countries waited for the **** to hit the fan.


----------



## cynic (12 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Victoria had the same trend as other States until the "second wave."  That is, ongoing testing was showing fewer cases.
> However, the meaningful metric remains the "positivity rate."  Correlations excluding positivity are without value.
> Trump claims more testing shows more cases.  Maybe so.  However, unless the positivity rate is declining then you will have a lingering epidemic.



Trump appears to be correct! 

It doesn't take statistical genius to recognise that, whilst undiagnosed cases exist in a community, increased testing will typically lead to increased discovery!


----------



## bellenuit (12 July 2020)

cynic said:


> Trump appears to be correct!
> 
> It doesn't take statistical genius to recognise that, whilst undiagnosed cases exist in a community, increased testing will typically lead to increased discovery!




Yes, that's true if the percentage infected remains the same and could even be the case if the percentage infected is falling and the percentage fall is less than the percentage rise in testing.

But Trump has attributed the rise in infections purely due to the increase in testing. But this is patently false as the percentage of those tested who are infected is rising much faster than the increase in testing. This indicates it is spreading.

Also, increased testing should not lead to an increase in death rates, but that has now started to happen a few weeks following the latest infection surge, as has been expected.

The video in the attached article gives the figures that belie Trump's claim

*Fact check: No, more testing isn't the reason US coronavirus case numbers are getting worse*

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/09/...navirus-cases-donald-trump-testing/index.html


----------



## rederob (12 July 2020)

cynic said:


> Trump appears to be correct!
> 
> It doesn't take statistical genius to recognise that, whilst undiagnosed cases exist in a community, increased testing will typically lead to increased discovery!



You should use data rather than guesswork.
Hubei recently tested almost 10 million to find some 300 cases.
China's testing regime has shown about one in a thousand to be positive.
Australia has about three times the Chinese rate.
In the USA the positivity rate has been increasing in many States.  Florida recently had one in three test positive.
So your view about correlations is unsound.


----------



## cynic (12 July 2020)

rederob said:


> You should use data rather than guesswork.
> Hubei recently tested almost 10 million to find some 300 cases.
> China's testing regime has shown about one in a thousand to be positive.
> Australia has about three times the Chinese rate.
> ...



How so?

Since when is a direct observation, derived from a simple application of logic, unsound?

And by the way, my original post was in reference to a single State in Australia(i.e. Victoria), not the entire globe!

So unless those statistics you've chosen to cite, are derived from a near identical testing regime, then they cannot be reasonably treated as valid comparison.


----------



## rederob (12 July 2020)

cynic said:


> How so?
> 
> Since when is a direct observation, derived from a simple application of logic, unsound?
> 
> ...



I responded to your point about Victoria.
Your idea was unsound and I explained why.
Your idea of logic and how data emanates is problematic, and I provided examples to show why.
Please learn the importance of positivity rates, as you seem not to have grasped that it is the pivotal issue.
I won't respond to your further points as you have a consistent theme of thinking that saying something rather than using evidence makes your points true.


----------



## cynic (12 July 2020)

From that response I take it that the testing regimes were of sufficient variance to demonstrate my point.


----------



## qldfrog (12 July 2020)

Nice headquarters in geneva with mercs there,


Knobby22 said:


> Who are slow acting as they are scared of upsetting governments and making a mistake. Basically weak leadership.
> 
> That said, I see some Australian scientists are arguing that the evidence shows that Covid does spread by large droplets and surfaces and no rf aerosol.
> 
> What is WHO now? It needs to be able to direct research and fund experiments. It should be coordinating responses. In reality it has no authority, no funding and lack of expertise. A shadow of what it should be.



 Happened to leave the Leman lake walk and go past their headquarters and chauffeur cars toward train station  in my last visit to Geneva..pure luck but showed the place to my son before the organisation came in the spotlight


----------



## spooly74 (13 July 2020)

Week 27 for Stockholm updated and interestingly there's been a drop in cases. ICU admissions & deaths still in decline. Very promising.
And below, no decline in testing.


----------



## qldfrog (13 July 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Week 27 for Stockholm updated and interestingly there's been a drop in cases. ICU admissions & deaths still in decline. Very promising.
> And below, no decline in testing.



put it crudely, and looking at whole numbers not specific cases or exception like I know a 20y guy running a marathon who died of it yesterday
it means those who had to die died and then it is a serious flu as they happen every n years
the good thing is that as truth reveals..and it will in the US too, we do not have to wait that long to find out, a year or 2 max, just enough to wreck the west but not a generation with the global warming CO2..
One way or the other, most here will be able to see who is right /wrong today.
As to accepting the answer, that is another issue


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2020)

As we mentioned in early posts, there is a possibility of long term damage and health problems, after catching the virus.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...-on-coronavirus-immunity-20200713-p55bgh.html
From the article:
*Experts warn on heart damage*
Coronavirus can damage the heart, with more than half of hospitalised patients revealing abnormal scans, a study has found.


A survey of 69 countries by the British Heart Foundation Centre of Research Excellence at the University of Edinburgh found that 55 per cent of 1261 patients studied had abnormal changes to the way their heart was pumping, with around one in seven showing evidence of severe dysfunction.

The team cautioned that the study cannot conclude how common heart changes are in people who did not receive scans; all patients in the study were already in hospital and had suspected heart complications.
But 901 of the patients studied had never been diagnosed with heart problems before, leading scientists to conclude that COVID-19 may seriously affect the heart.

Among this group, heart scans were abnormal in 46 per cent of patients and 13 per cent had severe disease. Dr Sonya Babu-Narayan, associate medical director at the British Heart Foundation and a consultant cardiologist, said: "Severe COVID-19 illness can result in damage to the heart and circulatory system."


The study, published in the _European Heart Journal - Cardiovascular Imaging,_ found the abnormalities were almost evenly split between the left and right chambers of the heart. Some 3 per cent of patients had suffered a recent heart attack, according to the scans. As a result of scans, one third of patients had treatment changed.

Professor Marc Dweck, who led the research, said: "Damage to the heart is known to occur in severe flu, but we were surprised to see so many patients with damage to their heart with COVID-19 and so many patients with severe dysfunction."


----------



## spooly74 (13 July 2020)

Paper from 2006.
Disease Mitigation Measures in the Control of Pandemic Influenza

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.1109&rep=rep1&type=pdf



> Large-Scale Quarantine Measures
> *There are no historical observations or scientific studies that support the confinement by quarantine of groups of possibly infected people for extended periods in order to slow the spread of influenza*. A World Health Organization (WHO) Writing Group, after reviewing the literature and considering contemporary international experience, concluded that *“forced isolation and quarantine are ineffective and impractical.”*


----------



## basilio (13 July 2020)

*30-year-old dies after attending 'Covid party' in Texas *
Patient said: ‘I think I made a mistake, I thought this was a hoax, but it’s not’, according to health official

A 30-year-old patient died after attending a ‘“Covid party”, believing the virus to be a hoax, a Texas medical official has said.

“Just before the patient died, they looked at their nurse and said ‘I think I made a mistake, I thought this was a hoax, but it’s not,’” said Dr Jane Appleby, the chief medical officer at Methodist hospital in San Antonio.

Appleby said: “I don’t want to be an alarmist, and we’re just trying to share some real-world examples to help our community realise that this virus is very serious and can spread easily.”





*  Florida reports 15,000 new coronavirus cases, a record single-day total in the US  *
Read more
A “Covid party” is a gathering held by somebody diagnosed with coronavirus to see if the virus is real and to see if anyone gets infected, she explained.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/13/30-year-old-dies-covid-party-texas


----------



## Knobby22 (13 July 2020)

basilio said:


> *30-year-old dies after attending 'Covid party' in Texas *
> Patient said: ‘I think I made a mistake, I thought this was a hoax, but it’s not’, according to health official
> 
> A 30-year-old patient died after attending a ‘“Covid party”, believing the virus to be a hoax, a Texas medical official has said.
> ...



Took himself out of the gene pool. Darwin Award.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 July 2020)

And the official death tally appears to be wrong...duh.

Death on arrival graph for Houston




While far more people died of COVID-19 in those cities than have died so far in Houston, researchers and paramedics say that the trend of sudden at-home deaths in Texas’ largest city is concerning because it shows that the virus’ toll may be deeper than what appears in official death tallies and daily hospitalization reports.

Many people who die at home are not tested for COVID-19, said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. In New York City, for example, only 16% of the 11,475 at-home deaths between February and June have been attributed to COVID-19, according to data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“There’s no reflexive testing,” Faust said, noting that medical examiners are selective about the cases they take. “There’s no pressure to call it a COVID death.”

The rise in at-home deaths may also reflect people who are afraid to go to the hospital because of COVID-19, and who die of heart attacks, strokes, diabetes and other conditions not tied to the coronavirus, Faust said.


https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/08/houston-coronavirus-deaths-number/


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2020)

I think this is something that should be fact-checked. 2 things, 1/ That the man is unidentified, and 2/ it seems a pretty cogent thing for someone to say immediately dying from respiratory distress.

I'm not calling it out has bulshit at this stage but it is certainly unverified.


----------



## basilio (13 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> I think this is something that should be fact-checked. 2 things, 1/ That the man is unidentified, and 2/ it seems a pretty cogent thing for someone to say immediately dying from respiratory distress.
> 
> I'm not calling it out has bulshit at this stage but it is certainly unverified.



Hmm...
So what elements should be fact checked Wayne ?

That he was 30 and died from COVID ?

That he had gone to a COVID party thrown by a person who was infected  with a bunch of  other people ?

That as he was fighting for his life he voiced the thought that " *perhaps COVID was real after all and not a hoax "?*
And by the way he was unidentified because of privacy laws.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/30-year-man-dies-attending-covid-party-thinking/story?id=71731414

And is it possible some people could be so stupid as to deliberately hold parties to infect each other ?

https://www.news.com.au/world/north...s/news-story/f74d37ffc60fb3272fa12fd80ab2376d


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Hmm...
> So what elements should be fact checked Wayne ?
> 
> That he was 30 and died from COVID ?
> ...



Agreed that it is pretty dumb, if so.

The rest, like anything, should be fact checked.


----------



## Knobby22 (13 July 2020)

Deleted post.


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2020)




----------



## spooly74 (14 July 2020)

wayneL said:


>




There’s no justification now for any more hard lockdowns.
‘Deaths all causes’ is probably going to be the best metric to evaluate ‘who did it best’ 

The Scots had a hard lockdown yet have had an uptick in deaths all causes.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> ten of thousands suicides in the coming decades




If suicides continue for decades then that suggests a far deeper problem than simply the pandemic assuming it's resolved one way or the other well before then.


----------



## DB008 (14 July 2020)

​


----------



## wayneL (14 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> If suicides continue for decades then that suggests a far deeper problem than simply the pandemic assuming it's resolved one way or the other well before then.



Yes, the economic consequences (for which covid has merely served as a trigger).


----------



## Knobby22 (14 July 2020)

Just want to point out something, Victoria has had maybe 1400 cases since the new spike occurred.
Already we have 85 people in hospital, 26 in intensive care (like Boris was) and 21 on ventilators. It is really nasty.


----------



## basilio (14 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Just want to point out something, Victoria has had maybe 1400 cases since the new spike occurred.
> Already we have 85 people in hospital, 26 in intensive care (like Boris was) and 21 on ventilators. It is really nasty.




And important to point out that the serious illnesses don't just happen immediately. Every probability that from the 1400 cases already noted serious illnesses and consequences will rise.

So add one or two zeros to the figures if it gets out of hand as has happened in many other countries and what are we dealing with ? Effectively the initial projections from March this year.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2020)

Obviously some don't take it seriously:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-14/four-alleged-stowaways-arrested-in-adelaide/12455292

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...ling-to-stop-at-sa-border-checkpoint/12100554


----------



## basilio (15 July 2020)

This report from CNN on the Coronavirus situation in the US indicates the Florida health system has reached its full capacity while the outbreak is still spreading faster than ever.


----------



## bellenuit (15 July 2020)

I think it is obvious what the real motivation behind this is ....

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/world/coronavirus-update.html

*The administration orders hospitals to bypass the C.D.C. with key virus data, alarming health experts.*

_The Trump administration has ordered hospitals to bypass the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and, beginning on Wednesday, send all coronavirus patient information to a central database in Washington — a move that has alarmed public health experts who fear the data will be distorted for political gain.

The new instructions are contained in a little-noticed documentposted this week on the Department of Health and Human Services’ website, Sheryl Gay Stolberg reports. From now on, H.H.S., and not the C.D.C., will collect daily reports about the patients that each hospital is treating, how many beds and ventilators are available, and other information vital to tracking the pandemic.

Officials said the change should help ease data gathering and assist the White House coronavirus task force in allocating scarce supplies like personal protective gear and the drug remdesivir.

Hospital officials want to streamline reporting, saying it will relieve them from responding to requests from multiple federal agencies, though some say the C.D.C. — an agency that prizes its scientific independence — should be in charge of gathering the information. 

“The C.D.C. is the right agency to be at the forefront of collecting the data,” said Dr. Bala Hota, the chief analytics officer at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago.

Public health experts have long expressed concern that the administration is politicizing science and undermining the disease control centers; four former C.D.C. directors, spanning both Republican and Democratic administrations, said as much in an opinion piece published Tuesday in The Washington Post. The data collection shift reinforced those fears.

“Centralizing control of all data under the umbrella of an inherently political apparatus is dangerous and breeds distrust,” said Nicole Lurie, who served as assistant secretary for preparedness and response under former President Barack Obama. “It appears to cut off the ability of agencies like C.D.C. to do its basic job.”

The shift grew out of a tense conference call several weeks ago between hospital executives and Dr. Deborah L. Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator. 

After Dr. Birx complained that hospitals were not adequately reporting their data, she convened a working group of government and hospital officials who devised the new plan, according to Janis Orlowski, chief health care officer of the Association of American Medical Colleges, who participated.

But news of the change came as a shock inside the C.D.C., which has long been responsible for gathering public health data, according to two officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss it. A spokesman for the disease control centers referred questions to the Department of Health and Human Services, which has not responded to a request for comment.

The dispute exposes the vast gaps in the government’s ability to collect and manage health data — an antiquated system at best, experts say._


----------



## basilio (15 July 2020)

Donald Trump on COVID 19

*" One day it will just disappear"*

Looks like that day is coming soon.


----------



## macca (15 July 2020)

_A comment on the vilification of Hydro, it is regarded as safe for everyone (even pregnant women) as a treatment for malaria yet is now "dangerous"

<<Hydroxychloroquine has been used safely for 65 years in many millions of patients. And so the message was crafted that the drug is safe for its other uses, but dangerous when used for COVID-19. It doesn’t make sense, but it seems to have worked. Were these acts carefully orchestrated? You decide.>>

Seems that some folks do Not want a cheap and readily available drug to work, wonder why ?

Many of the people dying are dying from blood clots, aspirin has been used to stop clots for years.

Given time we can establish a treatment method and we can all relax a bit, hopefully_


----------



## DB008 (16 July 2020)

*An mRNA Vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 — Preliminary Report*​
*Abstract*

BACKGROUND
The severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) emerged in late 2019 and spread globally, prompting an international effort to accelerate development of a vaccine. The candidate vaccine mRNA-1273 encodes the stabilized prefusion SARS-CoV-2 spike protein.​
METHODS
We conducted a phase 1, dose-escalation, open-label trial including 45 healthy adults, 18 to 55 years of age, who received two vaccinations, 28 days apart, with mRNA-1273 in a dose of 25 μg, 100 μg, or 250 μg. There were 15 participants in each dose group.​
RESULTS
After the first vaccination, antibody responses were higher with higher dose (day 29 enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay anti–S-2P antibody geometric mean titer [GMT], 40,227 in the 25-μg group, 109,209 in the 100-μg group, and 213,526 in the 250-μg group). After the second vaccination, the titers increased (day 57 GMT, 299,751, 782,719, and 1,192,154, respectively). After the second vaccination, serum-neutralizing activity was detected by two methods in all participants evaluated, with values generally similar to those in the upper half of the distribution of a panel of control convalescent serum specimens. Solicited adverse events that occurred in more than half the participants included fatigue, chills, headache, myalgia, and pain at the injection site. Systemic adverse events were more common after the second vaccination, particularly with the highest dose, and three participants (21%) in the 250-μg dose group reported one or more severe adverse events.​
CONCLUSIONS
The mRNA-1273 vaccine induced anti–SARS-CoV-2 immune responses in all participants, and no trial-limiting safety concerns were identified. These findings support further development of this vaccine. (Funded by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and others; mRNA-1273 ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04283461. opens in new tab).​


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022483?query=featured_home


.​


----------



## IFocus (16 July 2020)

macca said:


> _A comment on the vilification of Hydro, it is regarded as safe for everyone (even pregnant women) as a treatment for malaria yet is now "dangerous"
> 
> <<Hydroxychloroquine has been used safely for 65 years in many millions of patients. And so the message was crafted that the drug is safe for its other uses, but dangerous when used for COVID-19. It doesn’t make sense, but it seems to have worked. Were these acts carefully orchestrated? You decide.>>
> 
> ...




In the mid 80's I travelled overland for 12 months surfing Mexico, Central and South America.

At that time malaria was around many of those countries so I spend some time researching and talking to quacks about anti malaria drugs. 

The problem was all of them had side effects that would kill a brown dog and all of them only worked on certain malaria parasites from memory the chloroquine based ones had the highest resistance from the most types malaria due largely to it being used the longest I believe.

Still, side effects were better than dying from malaria particular if you were in the middle of a jungle days travel from any where...........just.

A mate of mine (have mentioned before) takes one of the malaria drugs to treat his auto immune disease which in turn has killed his eye sight a known side effect ( I avoided this one due to this problem).

I took an anti malaria drugs for 4 weeks and felt unwell for the whole time, in the end I stooped taking it and would ask around if malaria was present and took precautions not to get bitten.

Long winded response to get to the point which is there maybe a use for _Hydroxychloroquine _but it would be limited due to its side effects please note death rates appear to have been reduced along with hospital stays due to the use of anti inflammable drugs along with blood thinners(i think) _Hydroxychloroquine _is not the go to dug clearly for clinical reasons not ideological ones IMHO_._


----------



## macca (16 July 2020)

A lot of companies have invested a lot of money and stand to make even more should they come up with "the magic bullet"

The magic bullet is currently unknown but there are quite a few "shields" being used around the world with good effects on Covid.

Unfortunately these don't get much of a mention on the news because they are booring, mundane, old fashioned, effective and saving lives, no one is interested.................


----------



## macca (16 July 2020)

Reading in todays paper that the outbreak in Sydney has been traced back to Melbourne. A truck driver returned from Melbourne, gave it to people at the depot, then went to the Pub which is the main source of the Sydney outbreak.

The interesting thing is that they were able to trace the strain of the virus, which means of course, that Melbourne has a different  strain to Sydney.

Stop and think, a different strain has developed between two states, A Vaccine? wishful thinking !

If this is normal then it would seem very unlikely that a vaccine developed for a strain in UK will work here. 

The flu vaccine is an example of this, in 2017 it was kindly rated as 10% effective

Batten down the hatches this will effect our economy and the rest of the world for a long time until we are forced to mask up and carry on, just like the Asian success stories


----------



## SirRumpole (16 July 2020)

macca said:


> Reading in todays paper that the outbreak in Sydney has been traced back to Melbourne. A truck driver returned from Melbourne, gave it to people at the depot, then went to the Pub which is the main source of the Sydney outbreak.




Truckies are exempt from border checks.

Maybe this should change.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Truckies are exempt from border checks.
> 
> Maybe this should change.



How will the drugs get through?
Only joking.


----------



## IFocus (16 July 2020)

macca said:


> Reading in todays paper that the outbreak in Sydney has been traced back to Melbourne. A truck driver returned from Melbourne, gave it to people at the depot, then went to the Pub which is the main source of the Sydney outbreak.
> 
> The interesting thing is that they were able to trace the strain of the virus, which means of course, that Melbourne has a different  strain to Sydney.
> 
> ...




Could be an issue but to early to tell, still I thing we have a long way to go.

*Varied COVID-19 Strains Not a Problem for Vaccines -- For Now
— Experts say it's likely too early to worry*

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85604


----------



## IFocus (16 July 2020)

Add to above certain steroid use has also had good results


----------



## SirRumpole (16 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> Add to above certain steroid use has also had good results




Will be interesting to see if the US's investment in Remdisivir is returned.

There doesn't seem to be much word yet on it's effectiveness.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2020)

I think the U.S and U.K are caught in a cleft stick, they have a large population dependent on a working economy, that will have a dramatic implosion if the economy fails to function.
China is a different kettle of fish, it controls everything.
Even a lot of the EU doesn't have the same welfare drag that the U.K has, that is why so many refugees are desperate to get to the U.K.
But it makes much better media coverage, to concentrate on the U.K.
I might be wrong, but from a plebs perspective it makes sense, focus on a welfare state that is struggling rather than a country that may be doing nothing.
There are a lot of countries doing it a lot harder IMO, and it's those we should be helping.
Maybe the black lives matter, could focus on donations to help black African countries  that are struggling with the virus.


----------



## IFocus (16 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Will be interesting to see if the US's investment in Remdisivir is returned.
> 
> There doesn't seem to be much word yet on it's effectiveness.




Has been approved by the TGA

*Australia's first COVID-19 treatment approved*
Australia’s first treatment option for people severely ill with COVID-19 has received provisional approval from the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).


https://www.health.gov.au/ministers.../australias-first-covid-19-treatment-approved


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> Has been approved by the TGA
> 
> *Australia's first COVID-19 treatment approved*
> Australia’s first treatment option for people severely ill with COVID-19 has received provisional approval from the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).
> ...



That is great news.


----------



## macca (16 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> Could be an issue but to early to tell, still I thing we have a long way to go.
> 
> *Varied COVID-19 Strains Not a Problem for Vaccines -- For Now
> — Experts say it's likely too early to worry*
> ...




Good article but does raise the doubt that if after all this time, we cannot come up with a permanent flu vaccine, it is very unlikely that we are going get something for Covid this year or perhaps ever.

For peace of mind I will keep taking what I hope are defence building supplements


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2020)

I just read that Victorians who refuse a virus check, when entering SA will cop a $1000 fine, well that should sort out some smart ar$es.lol


----------



## spooly74 (17 July 2020)

Interesting idea on "Dry Tinder" with regard to current Covid mortality rates.
Thread focus here is on the Nordic countries and the disconnect between neighbours.
Worth keeping an eye on this as the user updates across more countries to see if there's any measurable correlation.


----------



## Sdajii (17 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Try to keep your personal bile out of this.
> Irrespective of your points, everything I said earlier is true.




As was everything I said, explaining why a vaccine is almost certainly not possible, let alone in less than half the time taken to make any vaccine in history despite being incredibly difficult.



> On topic, should a vaccine be available next year and I had the opportunity to prioritise its use, it would be an immediate requirement for all international travel.  That would open up travel/tourism/hospitality which are some of the hardest hit sectors of economies and would negate the need for countries to collaborate on "bubbles."




Yeah, and if time travel is invented by the end of the week we can just go back to mid 2019 and prevent the outbreak, but in reality there won't be a functional vaccine next year, and if a vaccine is in use next year it won't be functional, it'll just be used to save face.


----------



## rederob (17 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> As was everything I said, explaining why a vaccine is almost certainly not possible, let alone in less than half the time taken to make any vaccine in history despite being incredibly difficult.



You have again *guessed*.
Of more than 100 current vaccine candidates there are over 20 in active trial phases, and two are into stage 3; and this is barely 6 months after the gene sequence became available.  It's a pace of scale and development never previously encountered, and it's a reality you keep ignoring.


Sdajii said:


> Yeah, and if time travel is invented by the end of the week we can just go back to mid 2019 and prevent the outbreak, but in reality there won't be a functional vaccine next year, and if a vaccine is in use next year it won't be functional, it'll just be used to save face.



Irrational guesswork does not make a case.


----------



## basilio (17 July 2020)

The issue of the danger COVID 19 represents to community is far bigger than simply mortality. The longer term effects  of the illness on people who are severely affected  is becoming clearer.

* Most Covid-19 patients admitted to a Sydney hospital in March still have symptoms *
*Exclusive:* more than three months after being discharged from St Vincent’s hospital, some 80% continue to experience symptoms, doctors say

Prof Gregory Dore, an infectious diseases physician at the hospital, said because reports from around the world seemed to suggest the fatality rate among those infected was around 1%, that “some people therefore think that well, 99% of people get out without any trouble”.

“Well, that’s absolutely not the case,” he said. “When you have 10% or more people hospitalised, when you have even more that are managing with the virus out in the community, a proportion of those people having ongoing, debilitating symptoms.

“This is a scary virus in the way it can affect people. There is a significant minority of people who have this ongoing – if you want to call it – syndrome of debilitating symptoms, so we’re sort of looking very closely at that group, both in terms of evaluating their quality of life and mental health fatigue, looking at the neurocognitive function, and then looking immunologically at whether there are any markers that would predict a symptom. So those are devastating symptoms.”
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-sydney-hospital-in-march-still-have-symptoms


----------



## wayneL (17 July 2020)

Fyi


----------



## over9k (17 July 2020)

The stage 3 trials don't end until march next year, and that assumes they're successful. Even if one eventually works out, it's going to take months for the whole planet to get vaccinated. 

This is not going away any time soon.


----------



## moXJO (17 July 2020)

You have to ask if the virus is being spread intentionally in Vic. Otherwise it was seriously under-reported


----------



## grah33 (17 July 2020)

an acquaintance of mine thinks the virus isn't that harmful and that Sweden didn't have a lock-down and things turned out fine.  to the people who have been following the news, what happened there ?

last time I checked Peter Hitchens thinks it's all over exaggerated


----------



## grah33 (17 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Fyi




I'm wondering how the formerly most richest man on the planet once again ends up in the biggest industry  ...


----------



## Knobby22 (17 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Fyi




Yea, my reading is if governments are willing to take risks then we will rush the process and increase the risk of adverse consequences. Some of the dodgier companies will do anything.

I heard there is a company in the USA pretty much skipping phase 1, straight into phase 2 by getting poor people in the USA and Africa to take the risk for a few bucks. And can you even trust them with the results?

As for the China vaccine tests, you can only imagine what is going on. Josef Mengele comes to mind.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> You have to ask if the virus is being spread intentionally in Vic. Otherwise it was seriously under-reported




Possibly , but as you can spread the virus without knowing you have it, I think it's more like carelessness.


----------



## bellenuit (17 July 2020)

grah33 said:


> I'm wondering how the formerly most richest man on the planet once again ends up in the biggest industry  ...




No need to wonder. His involvement is through his charitable foundation that has spent billions of his money (and that of others) trying to eradicate diseases in the poorest countries of the world. They have made significant progress with regards to malaria. The only people who doubt his honourable intentions are the usual conspiracy theory nutters.

BTW. The video has a lot of cuts. The impression I got was that he was just stating the truism, that both he and Fauci believe, and that is governments have the choice of waiting for a vaccine to be developed and fully tested so that it has no (or minor) side-effects or start distributing newly developed vaccines before they have been properly tested and risking serious side effects down the track. The video was edited to make it seem that he was advocating the latter, which I didn't hear him specifically say or at least not in its full context. I would like to hear the full video.


----------



## wayneL (17 July 2020)

To the sheeple, everything is a conspiracy theory.


----------



## grah33 (17 July 2020)

bellenuit said:


> No need to wonder. His involvement is through his charitable foundation that has spent billions of his money (and that of others) trying to eradicate diseases in the poorest countries of the world. They have made significant progress with regards to malaria. The only people who doubt his honourable intentions are the usual conspiracy theory nutters.
> 
> BTW. The video has a lot of cuts. The impression I got was that he was just stating the truism, that both he and Fauci believe, and that is governments have the choice of waiting for a vaccine to be developed and fully tested so that it has no (or minor) side-effects or start distributing newly developed vaccines before they have been properly tested and risking serious side effects down the track. The video was edited to make it seem that he was advocating the latter, which I didn't hear him specifically say or at least not in its full context. I would like to hear the full video.




i never thought he'd be in some conspiracy thing,  just that I find him rather remarkable.


----------



## grah33 (17 July 2020)

on Sweden,  anyone?


----------



## basilio (17 July 2020)

Where COVID 19 is going around the world. Go past the headlines and  everyone gets a look in...

*Coronavirus update: Hundreds of US children suffer inflammatory condition as new cases rise nationally by 75,000 in single day*
*Friday's key moments:*

Hundreds of US children suffer inflammatory condition
Russia's coronavirus death toll passes 12,000
Thailand extends visa grace period to avoid overstayers
US official says retests 'clogging system'
France accelerates compulsory wearing of face masks in public
Florida breaks new case record as another 1 million Americans unemployed
Iran lacks hospital capacity as it faces second wave, says official
Israel eyes renewed lockdown amid looming second wave
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...--inflammatory-condition-coronavirus/12464608


----------



## wayneL (17 July 2020)

Fear fear fear, be scared!


----------



## qldfrog (17 July 2020)

grah33 said:


> on Sweden,  anyone?



We will realise if we look at figures in a year that they fared as good  bad as everyone else but just without lockdown...
Do not expect reading that in the mainstream media
Overreacting? Of course.
Initially valid response, but not anymore once we know more about virus.
Now used as a pretext ..


----------



## IFocus (17 July 2020)

US right-wingers have run the mask wearing as a political issue along with its a fear problem any thing for a distraction I guess, quite a discussion going on about it along with the advice is killing off their supporters.


----------



## IFocus (17 July 2020)

Its OK just another flu.....not

*Most Covid-19 patients admitted to a Sydney hospital in March still have symptoms*

Some thing Smurf has talked about

Prof Gregory Dore, an infectious diseases physician at the hospital, said because reports from around the world seemed to suggest the fatality rate among those infected was around 1%, that “some people therefore think that well, 99% of people get out without any trouble”.

“Well, that’s absolutely not the case,” he said. “When you have 10% or more people hospitalised, when you have even more that are managing with the virus out in the community, a proportion of those people having ongoing, debilitating symptoms.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-sydney-hospital-in-march-still-have-symptoms


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2020)

https://www.sonichealthplus.com.au/health-hub/flu/item/2019-flu-season-2nd-worst-on-record
To always keep in perspective
Last year 800 lives lost to common flu in Australia
Covid is a nasty strain so we can reasonably expect more than this and still be within seasonal variation
Another 2 months of winter to go for the south of the country before it gets better


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.sonichealthplus.com.au/health-hub/flu/item/2019-flu-season-2nd-worst-on-record
> To always keep in perspective
> Last year 800 lives lost to common flu in Australia
> Covid is a nasty strain so we can reasonably expect more than this and still be within seasonal variation
> Another 2 months of winter to go for the south of the country before it gets better



Unfortunately frog Covid doesn't seem to follow seasonal variation. Compare Brazil and Sweden's numbers population proportionately.

We have to learn to live with it. 

And live with its consequent economic implications. 

gg


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Unfortunately frog Covid doesn't seem to follow seasonal variation. Compare Brazil and Sweden's numbers population proportionately.
> 
> We have to learn to live with it.
> 
> ...



Believe me it does, which is why europe is over, as is US btw if you look at the death curve,
 and Brazil and Australia getting worse
Brazil in winter is not all copa cabana...


----------



## rederob (19 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Believe me it does, which is why europe is over, as is US btw if you look at the death curve,



Nope:


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Believe me it does, which is why europe is over, as is US btw if you look at the death curve,
> and Brazil and Australia getting worse
> Brazil in winter is not all copa cabana...



You are dangerously wrong.

It is not showing itself to be seasonal. Tin Hat stuff.

gg


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

The divergence between deaths & cases is because young(er) people are now going back to work & getting the virus and it's much more survivable if you're young. 

It still KO's you for however long you take to recover, but the death rate is orders of magnitude lower. 

This is still a huge cost for business and the individual though so anything which can be done from home/without human contact, is.


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> The divergence between deaths & cases is because young(er) people are now going back to work & getting the virus and it's much more survivable if you're young.
> 
> It still KO's you for however long you take to recover, but the death rate is orders of magnitude lower.
> 
> This is still a huge cost for business and the individual though so anything which can be done from home/without human contact, is.



The majority of people will barely notice it. I think CDC estimates about 40% of people won't even know they have it. 
Its not some death sentence. In saying that you don't want it running unchecked.


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> You are dangerously wrong.
> 
> It is not showing itself to be seasonal. Tin Hat stuff.
> 
> gg



Look at location of cluster in italy france and spain, how do you explain it
And as for actual research:
Maximum contamination is achieved is cold ( but not frozen ) humid environment
Aka winter..but not in qld
Plenty of real research there.i posted a link ages ago.
Condition  incidentally reproduced in slaughterhouses which are often prime targets.
You can get the flu in summer, you can get covid in summer but it will have a lower R factor
Obviously summer in Oslo or winter in Cairns , differ from winter in Edinburgh or summer in Dubai.
All that info freely available for who cares to look.
To be honest, really sick of fighting propaganda with facts.
Not specifically you Gg. 
DYOR or just repeat after me
"We are doomed unless we lockdown, but a vaccine will save us before the end of year, and the US is a slaughterhouse because of Trump"


----------



## rederob (19 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> You can get the flu in summer, you can get covid in summer but it will have a lower R factor



More unsubstantiated claims from @qldfrog which are contradicted by real world evidence. 
Here's some info about the reproduction rate.
The positivity rate which has been increasing in the US as the summer has drawn, has also been increasing as total numbers are increasing.
Little of your post stacks up.


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

I'm not an immunologist or doctor but doesn't the cold itself compromise your immune system? 

I.e it's not that bugs spread better in the winter, it's that the cold weakens your immune system to such an extent that they become much harder to fight off? 

If that's true, we can expect to see death rate increase(s) as the weather gets colder.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2020)

basilio said:


> The issue of the danger COVID 19 represents to community is far bigger than simply mortality. The longer term effects  of the illness on people who are severely affected  is becoming clearer.
> 
> * Most Covid-19 patients admitted to a Sydney hospital in March still have symptoms *
> *Exclusive:* more than three months after being discharged from St Vincent’s hospital, some 80% continue to experience symptoms, doctors say
> ...




Hello Bas but isn't that what we've been saying since it broke out? best not to get it, as there is reportedly a HIV component and something could lay dormant. What do most who have HIV normally succumb to?


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Hello Bas but isn't that what we've been saying since it broke out? best not to get it, as there is reportedly a HIV component and something could lay dormant. What do most who have HIV normally succumb to?




I don't know enough  about that HIV component. My highlighting the recognition of the ongoing effects was to reinforce the need for keeping people from catching the virus in the first place.

Unfortunately there are still many people who believe it's effects are relatively small potatoes in terms of mortality ie lots of people die from the flu whats the deal  with this ?

We are discovering the deal seems to have many more consequences. Lets stay safe and work like hell to find some medical solution.


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

Masks are now mandatory in Victoria.  I suspect this direction may spread further afield.
Excellent article on  masks in teh Guardian. Practical, sensible.

*How to stop your glasses steaming up – and 19 other essential facts about face masks *
How often should you wash a cloth mask? And how effective are the disposable ones? The expert guide to choosing, wearing and caring for your face covering
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...and-19-other-essential-facts-about-face-masks


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2020)

Then this


----------



## rederob (20 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Then this



This is the "fake news" spreader in action.
Nowhere is there any evidence that flu shots have an impact on people contracting COV19.
Here's some light reading that puts Allan Cunningham's views into an epidemiological perspective:

_Aaby P, Whittle H, Benn CS (2012 Jun 14). Vaccine programmes must consider their effect on general resistance. BMJ; 344: e3769.

Abrams JY, Weintraub ES, Baggs JM et al. (2015). Childhood vaccines and Kawasaki disease, Vaccine Safety Datalink,1996-2006. Vaccine; 33: 382-387.

Ausiello CM, Urbani F, La Sala A et al. (1997 Jun). Vaccine- and Antigen-Dependent Type 1 and Type 2 Cytokine Induction after Primary Vaccination of Infants with Whole-Cell or Acellular Pertussis Vaccines. Infection and Immunity; 65(6): 2168-2174.

Bonetto C, Trotta F, Felicetti P et al. (2016). Vasculitis as an adverse event following immunization – Systematic literature review. Vaccine; 2016; 34: 6641-6651.

CDC (2018 Oct 16). Vaccines and Sudden Infant Death: Vaccines have not been shown to cause sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Available at: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/sids.html [scroll down, click on Related Scientific Articles]

CDC (2019 Apr 10). Data and Statistics. Sudden Unexpected Infant Death and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Available at: https://www.cdc.gov/sids/data.htm

Cunningham AS (2019 May 9). Unlimited tolerance of vaccines? BMJ Rapid Responses. Available at: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l1481/rr-21

Esposito S, Bianchini S, Dellepiane RM, Principi N (2016). Vaccines and Kawasaki disease; 15(3): 417-424.

Fine PEM, Smith PG (2007 Jan). Editorial: ‘Non-specific effects of vaccines’ – an important analytical insight, and call for a workshop. Tropical Medicine and International Health; 12(1): 1-4. Available at: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1365-3156.2006.01794.x

Fine PEM, Williams TN, Aaby P et al. (2009 Sep). Epidemiological studies of the ‘non-specific effects’ of vaccines: I – data collection in observational studies. Tropical Medicine and International Health; 14(9): 969-976. Available at:

Goldwater PN (2017 Aug). Infection: the neglected paradigm in SIDS research. 102(8): 767-772. Available at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5537520/pdf/archdischild-20...

Harrison JA (2019a May 7). Response to Stone. BMJ Rapid Responses. Available at: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l1481/rr-14

Harrison JA (2019b May 9). Response to Allan S. Cunningham. BMJ Rapid Responses. Available at: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l1481/rr-22

Huang (2017 Jan). Vaccination and unexplained sudden death risk in Taiwanese infants. Pharmacoepidemiology and drug safety; 26(1): 17-25. Available at: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1365-3156.2009.02301.x

Lin (2017 Oct 31). The global epidemiology of Kawasaki disease: Review and future perspectives. Global Cardiology Science & Practice. Available at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5856963/

Müller-Nordhorn J, Hettler-Chen CM, Keil T, Muckelbauer R (2015). Association between sudden infant death syndrome and diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis immunisation: an ecological study. BMC Pediatrics. Available at: https://bmcpediatr.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12887-015-0318-7

Roos R (2003 Nov 19). Vaccines might have contributed to death of Army reservist. CIDRAP News. Available at: http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2003/11/vaccines-might-have-c...

Saadatian-Elahi M, Aaby P, Shann F (2016 2016 Jul 25). Heterologous vaccine effects. Vaccine; 34: 3923-3930. Vaccine; 34(34): 3923-3930.

Talaat KR, Halsey NA, Cox AB et al. (2018 Mar). Rapid changes in serum cytokines and chemokines in response to inactivated influenza vaccination. Influenza and other respiratory viruses; 12(2): 202-210. Available at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5820426/pdf/IRV-12-202.pdf

Uehara R, Belay ED (2012). Epidemiology of Kawasaki Disease in Asia, Europe, and the United States. Journal of Epidemiology; 22(2): 79-85.

Wikipedia. Kawasaki disease. Available at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_disease

Wikipedia. Sudden infant death syndrome. Available at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_infant_death_syndrome

Wormsbecker AE, Johnson C, Bourns L et al. (2019 Jan 15). Demonstration of background rates of three conditions of interest for vaccine safety surveillance. PLOS One; 14(1). Available at: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0210833_​


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## wayneL (20 July 2020)

Ummmm, The BMJ, AKA the British medical journal is a wholly owned subsidiary of the British Medical Association which is the professional body that represents the UK medical profession.

I wouldn't really describe that as fake news Robbie


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2020)

More fake news

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/19/lockdown-may-cost-200k-lives-government-report-shows/

*Lockdown may cost 200,000 lives, government report shows*

Research shines a light on the reasons why the Government has been keen to lift lockdown, in spite of experts claiming it happened too soon
More than 200,000 people could die from the impact of lockdown and protecting the NHS, an official government report shows....


----------



## rederob (20 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Ummmm, The BMJ, AKA the British medical journal is a wholly owned subsidiary of the British Medical Association which is the professional body that represents the UK medical profession.
> 
> I wouldn't really describe that as fake news Robbie



If there is actual evidence that flu vaccines affect COV19 then present it.
You have relied on what is effectively an "opinion" posted into the BMJ as if it were some sort of definitive article, and it is not.
If you do not understand the issue, then read what I have listed - including peer reviewed medical science references - to give perspective to Cunningham's piece; he has clutched at straws.


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2020)

rederob said:


> If there is actual evidence that flu vaccines affect COV19 then present it.
> You have relied on what is effectively an "opinion" posted into the BMJ as if it were some sort of definitive article, and it is not.
> If you do not understand the issue, then read what I have listed - including peer reviewed medical science references - to give perspective to Cunningham's piece; he has clutched at straws.



The article should be taken at face value Robbie, as something worthy of investigation.

I thought it was interesting because in my own family it seems to be something that is observable, anecdotally.... And no I am not representing that is some sort of empirical truth just something that should be investigated.

That is hardly fake news and it is quite disingenuous of you to label it as such, that is what I am saying.


----------



## rederob (20 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> More fake news
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/19/lockdown-may-cost-200k-lives-government-report-shows/
> 
> ...



It's indicative of the crap you have posted for years.
Wuhan was locked down harder and longer than anywhere on the planet, so where is there any evidence from real life that supports the article?


----------



## rederob (20 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> The article should be taken at face value Robbie, as something worthy of investigation.
> 
> I thought it was interesting because in my own family it seems to be something that is observable, anecdotally.... And no I am not representing that is some sort of empirical truth just something that should be investigated.
> 
> That is hardly fake news and it is quite disingenuous of you to label it as such, that is what I am saying.



It's a doctor's opinion.
It's not medical science. 
Rather than accept his opinion, read the medical science links I provided that put Cunningham's views in perspective rather than continue to spread a tweet that I have seen dozens of times and is without merit.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2020)

rederob said:


> It's indicative of the crap you have posted for years.
> Wuhan was locked down harder and longer than anywhere on the planet, so where is there any evidence from real life that supports the article?




Would you expect China to release accurate records of suicides/family violence or other causes of death ?


----------



## rederob (20 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Would you expect China to release accurate records of suicides/family violence or other causes of death ?



I would expect real world evidence to be available.
Italy and Spain also endured hard lockdowns.  Does their experience lend any support to @wayneL's linked article?


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2020)

As we suspected, even if we can develop a vaccine, it would have to be manufactured overseas, the clever country?

https://www.theage.com.au/business/...ll-have-to-made-overseas-20200720-p55dmo.html


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## macca (20 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> As we suspected, even if we can develop a vaccine, it would have to be manufactured overseas, the clever country?
> 
> https://www.theage.com.au/business/...ll-have-to-made-overseas-20200720-p55dmo.html




Even if they find one for Victorian strain it may not work everywhere, my concern is that a vaccine is developed OS and then brought to Oz and does not work.

Like the flu vaccine but worse........................


----------



## grah33 (20 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> We will realise if we look at figures in a year that they fared as good  bad as everyone else but just without lockdown...
> Do not expect reading that in the mainstream media
> Overreacting? Of course.
> Initially valid response, but not anymore once we know more about virus.
> Now used as a pretext ..




so no where to put dead bodies (out of space)?
and what's used as a pretext?


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2020)

grah33 said:


> so no where to put dead bodies (out of space)?
> and what's used as a pretext?



In another thread, we are discussing the difference between peak and average power demand, this is the same analogy:
What count is how many lives will be list overall inc suicides and lives lost due to economic hit, unperformed health checks etc.so wait a few years and be open minded about the end figures in Sweden
Smooth the curve is a valid concept, suppression a wet dream in either national or world scale at this stage.all i am saying


----------



## SirRumpole (21 July 2020)

Fingers crossed that this works.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...d-university-can-train-immune-system/12475332


----------



## Knobby22 (21 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Fingers crossed that this works.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...d-university-can-train-immune-system/12475332




Good company AstraZeneca. Even if the vaccine doesn't work well enough to stop transmission, if it at least primes the body to fight it then many more people will get less sick and we can reopen the economies.


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Good company AstraZeneca. Even if the vaccine doesn't work well enough to stop transmission, if it at least primes the body to fight it then many more people will get less sick and we can reopen the economies.



Can we put this in context of my fake vaccine idea considering only 25% of infected people even develop fever? They could release sterile water injection today and  save  time and  lives by achieving all what you mentioned.
Cheaper as well but who cares a few billions anymore


----------



## Knobby22 (21 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Can we put this in context of my fake vaccine idea considering only 25% of infected people even develop fever? They could release sterile water injection today and  save  time and  lives by achieving all what you mentioned.
> Cheaper as well but who cares a few billions anymore




No, it has to work. I am more confident of the University of Queensland's vaccine.
Anyway I know you said it in jest but I have no desire for the autocrats to hoodwink us.
Speaking of which I noticed the death rate has halved in the USA since Trump took over the hospital collection figures. My guestimate is about 2000 deaths a day but they are only reporting 400.


----------



## IFocus (21 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> No, it has to work. I am more confident of the University of Queensland's vaccine.
> Anyway I know you said it in jest but I have no desire for the autocrats to hoodwink us.
> Speaking of which I noticed the death rate has halved in the USA since Trump took over the hospital collection figures. My guestimate is about 2000 deaths a day but they are only reporting 400.




I did read somewhere that the improvement in treatments had 1/2 the death rate in the US.


Likely written by Trump


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## IFocus (21 July 2020)

Anyone got the latest figures for deaths of  doctors and nurses?


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> No, it has to work. I am more confident of the University of Queensland's vaccine.
> Anyway I know you said it in jest but I have no desire for the autocrats to hoodwink us.
> Speaking of which I noticed the death rate has halved in the USA since Trump took over the hospital collection figures. My guestimate is about 2000 deaths a day but they are only reporting 400.



as if hoodwinking is not happening here daily???
And obviously, it can only be because Trump is fudging the figures? or could it be we have less deaths?
As most other countries are experiencing....
As we did not get a first wave and are well into winter conditions, we might soon have the privilege to be the only place with increasing number of deaths (real deaths ..).


----------



## macca (21 July 2020)

Three deaths in Victoria, the paper said 100+ years, 90 and 80, sad to see those people make it to such a wonderful age and then die because of some imported virus.

Again we see age as the common factor in mortality

I wonder is someone somewhere doing blood tests on the deceased looking for common links, they have done some OS which is where they discovered the Vitamin D link.

I wonder about the flu vaccine, most old people have the flu vaccine and most deaths are old people.................... statistics can be twisted around but I do wonder


----------



## wabullfrog (21 July 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> No, it has to work. I am more confident of the University of Queensland's vaccine.
> Anyway I know you said it in jest but I have no desire for the autocrats to hoodwink us.
> Speaking of which I noticed the death rate has halved in the USA since Trump took over the hospital collection figures. My guestimate is about 2000 deaths a day but they are only reporting 400.




I've noticed on Worldometers  that there is often a decline over Sunday/Monday & then the numbers creep back up as the week progresses. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2020)

wabullfrog said:


> I've noticed on Worldometers  that there is often a decline over Sunday/Monday & then the numbers creep back up as the week progresses.
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/




Probably delay in getting test results, or people are too busy watching footy and say they'll get tested next week.


----------



## rederob (21 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> As we did not get a first wave and are well into winter conditions, we might soon have the privilege to be the only place with increasing number of deaths (real deaths ..).



Yes, using data, if total deaths double in Australia, we will still have about 120 nations ahead of us.
And on the issue of "temperature" being a factor, why is India experiencing an increasing death rate:





Just an FYI but New Delhi won't have a forecast minimum below 26 celsius in the next fortnight so obviously it has to be "*heat*" adding to the death rate (using @qldfrog's rationale).


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## sptrawler (21 July 2020)

Sounds as though someone will be for the high jump, over the security contract at the Melbourne hotel, very unprofessional. 
I wonder who oversaw the letting of that contract, someone will be ducking for cover and looking for the teflon spray.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...guards-recruited-by-whatsapp-message/12476574


----------



## grah33 (21 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> In another thread, we are discussing the difference between peak and average power demand, this is the same analogy:
> What count is how many lives will be list overall inc suicides and lives lost due to economic hit, unperformed health checks etc.so wait a few years and be open minded about the end figures in Sweden
> Smooth the curve is a valid concept, suppression a wet dream in either national or world scale at this stage.all i am saying



yes, lots of  factors.

i might have to do some research on Sweden


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## sptrawler (22 July 2020)

The Victorian outbreak seems to be accelerating, it will be interesting to see if more stringent measures are enforced. 
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...death-toll-stands-at-126-20200721-p55e4c.html


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## Dona Ferentes (22 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The Victorian outbreak seems to be accelerating, it will be interesting to see if more stringent measures are enforced.
> https://www.theage.com.au/national/...death-toll-stands-at-126-20200721-p55e4c.html



484 in one day. !!


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## cynic (22 July 2020)

When jests turn out to be true! This is beyond laughable


Dona Ferentes said:


> 484 in one day. !!



It's  their own bleeding fault for testing so many people. They could so easily get themsekves back into the single digits if they would only cap their testing to a maximum of 9 tests per day!


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2020)

cynic said:


> When jests turn out to be true! This is beyond laughable
> 
> It's  their own bleeding fault for testing so many people. They could so easily get themsekves back into the single digits if they would only cap their testing to a maximum of 9 tests per day!




Thanks Donald.


----------



## PZ99 (23 July 2020)

OZ deaths rise to 128 from covid
FLU deaths decrease by around 300 compared to this time last year.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...ns-cause-flu-cases-to-drop-australia/12480190

One suspects a future of authoritarian Govt regulations about snogging in public.
Nothing like the good ole days


----------



## qldfrog (23 July 2020)

The 'good' thing is that now we will have a delayed first wave, delayed at a huge cost but at least we know how to deal with it properly medically (does not mean we win, but much better now), and if beds are lacking now, they would never have been available;
The trouble is that we have now wasted our initial lockdown with that initial  pretense at eradication
-> it will be much harder to implement the really needed minimal measures to curb the curve as people will not take a second forced lockdown for the 1%, however sheeple Australians are , and however harsh  fines will be applied;
What a waste! But the end of the tunnel will be near and we will reach as stable situation as in Europe, moreover, transmission rate will decrease once we reach the 14C or above in a few months as experienced the world over, and scientifically proven


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2020)

What we suspected, may well be starting to manifest, maybe there is a long term component in this virus. Until the long term ramifications of the virus are known, it certainly would be best not to contract it in the first place, IMO.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...symptoms-linger-in-young-20200721-p55dz7.html
From the article:
_The analysis, published in the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare's national health report card, warns of COVID-19’s potential to "seriously affect not just those who are elderly or in very poor health, but also people who may not have been considered to be at the highest risk."

It comes as initial observations from a UNSW Kirby Institute study of the long-term effects of mild-to-moderate COVID-19 indicates that one in five patients experience ongoing symptoms, including breathlessness, fatigue, anxiety and "brain fog"_.

It will be interesting to see the data surrounding those who have had the virus, when 10 years have elapsed.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> What a waste! But the end of the tunnel will be near and we will reach as stable situation as in Europe, moreover, transmission rate will decrease once we reach the 14C or above in a few months as experienced the world over, and scientifically proven



Zero scientific proof.
The USA's positivity and death rates are increasing, and it's moved from autumn to summer - so getting hotter means more deaths!
Here's what has been happening in Mexico as summer came around:





About the best we can say is that in cold winters people generally are more susceptible to colds and viruses.  However, viral transmission is not *reliant *on temperature and, in the case of COV19, clearly related to "behaviour" and poor mitigation controls.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2020)

Interesting that in the 'Daily Telegraph', there is an article that the BLM organisers are in the Supreme Court, fighting against the NSW police from stopping the event to be held in 5 days.
Meanwhile I can't find a thing about it in the SMH, confusing when you consider the public interest angle, one would have thought the SMH would have run it .


----------



## IFocus (23 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Zero scientific proof.
> The USA's positivity and death rates are increasing, and it's moved from autumn to summer - so getting hotter means more deaths!
> Here's what has been happening in Mexico as summer came around:
> View attachment 106356
> ...




Unlike the flu season being winter COV19 appears to be 12 months of the year.

What I find amazing is the opinion its not much more than a bad flu is still around while thousands of medical staff  world wide have died of COV19 yet those numbers don't exist for any flu.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> Unlike the flu season being winter COV19 appears to be 12 months of the year.
> 
> What I find amazing is the opinion its not much more than a bad flu is still around while thousands of medical staff  world wide have died of COV19 yet those numbers don't exist for any flu.



As I said, "spread" is about behaviour/mitigation strategies as the data for Australia already shows the common flu has not resulted in the usual death rate.
The sad thing about some of the posts in this thread is the reluctance to appreciate the severity of COV19 over the flu in terms of infection rate, recovery duration, medical intervention requirement, stress on hospital systems, morbidity, and that's aside from the attendant economic consequences related to workers and workplaces and, ultimately GDP loss.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2020)

Well at least now the march is in the SMH, apparently it is going ahead on Tuesday regardless, so those who work in Sydney be aware and be safe.
*Black Lives Matter protesters vow to march regardless of court outcome*
*By Michaela Whitbourn*


Organisers of a planned Black Lives Matter protest in Sydney on Tuesday have vowed the march will proceed regardless of the outcome of a Supreme Court application by police for a prohibition order.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2020)

FWIW


----------



## qldfrog (23 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> FWIW




Shush...shush...


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Shush...shush...




Trouble is that, if we scale it up to the Australian population, they killed 14,000 people to get to those low numbers (actual deaths 5676 with a population of about 10 million).

That'll change society going forward, it won't be forgotten for a very long time and will of itself come with consequences.

Meanwhile deaths in the US are back in a bull market with a second higher low and a second higher high now having occurred. The 7 day moving average is up 67% from the lows. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/


----------



## orr (24 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Shush...shush...




Yeah I'd be quiet about it to frog...
Norway, just next door, reported their first deathless day on April 27th. There's been 4 deaths in the last 30 days bringing the total for that country to 255.

In Sweden you test yourself at home and send it off in the post. The experience of someone I know in Karlstad who took the the test on 25/June, It took over two weeks to have the results confirmed.. Make what you will of that.
There's other things to keep in mind about Sweden, not least that their Prime Minister chooses not to speak the population like they are infantile imbeciles.... 
Schmo knows his audience though.


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2020)

More from Sweden


----------



## qldfrog (24 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Trouble is that, if we scale it up to the Australian population, they killed 14,000 people to get to those low numbers (actual deaths 5676 with a population of about 10 million).
> 
> That'll change society going forward, it won't be forgotten for a very long time and will of itself come with consequences.
> 
> ...



No they did not killed 14k, they let 14k people die now instead of them dying when, next year? and saved thousands of lives on the ongoing years.
Both my Nans would have greatly benefited from covid shortening their artificially extended life by 4 to 5 years.The remaining sane one was begging to die for years while the other one had no mind left for 15y.
Are we actually  interested in people or more sustaining a big business?
And whatever BS we can read, they are the one dying from Covid. Exceptions are not representative
we will be able to judge that accurately by looking at the mortality curve along 3y/4y in the near future.
RDV then for the Swedish experience real results


----------



## basilio (25 July 2020)

*Man On Plane Refuses To Wear Mask Because It Breaches His Human Rights *







A passenger on a rapidly depressurising aeroplane has refused to fit himself with a mask, saying it was a contravention of his fundamental rights as a human being.

With the plane losing cabin pressure at an alarming rate, the man said he wasn’t just going to blindly follow the instructions of some authoritarian safety card.

“This is fascism. The fact that this dictator at the front of plane is telling me to put on a mask is exactly the reason why I refuse to do it,” the man said as other passengers fitted masks to themselves and loved ones.

“You people can surrender your freedoms if you want to, but I’m not going to give in to a police state. What next? Seatbelts?”

The man said masks were heavy to wear and felt too tight on the face. “It’s such an inconvenience to my freedom. My uncle didn’t fight in three world wars for this bull****! Wake up sheeple! You can’t …

https://www.theshovel.com.au/2020/0...breaches_his_human_rights&utm_term=2020-07-24


----------



## satanoperca (25 July 2020)

basilio said:


> *Man On Plane Refuses To Wear Mask Because It Breaches His Human Rights *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why do you post this crap?

There are f--kwits everywhere, do not give them air, give them Covid instead.


----------



## basilio (25 July 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Why do you post this crap?
> 
> There are f--kwits everywhere, do not give them air, give them Covid instead.



 It was written on The Shovel as a piece of satire on the ridiculousness of people braying about  the injustice of mandatory face masks ...  I  reprinted it in the same spirit

You did get that didn't you ?


----------



## basilio (25 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> What I find amazing is the opinion its not much more than a bad flu is still around while thousands of medical staff world wide have died of COV19 yet those numbers don't exist for any flu.




Utterly terrifying isn't it ?


----------



## bellenuit (26 July 2020)

Something for the conspiracy theorists among us to salivate about over the next week....

*Local TV stations across the country set to air discredited 'Plandemic' researcher's conspiracy theory about Fauci*

*https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/24/media/sinclair-fauci-conspiracy-bolling/index.html*


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> No they did not killed 14k, they let 14k people die now instead of them dying when, next year? and saved thousands of lives on the ongoing years.



Ultimately they would die, we all will, but not all next year. It would vary - personally I aim to be alive for quite some time yet and so do most I know.

I say that as someone who's long been an advocate for voluntary euthanasia. If someone's at end of life and suffering in misery then ending it seems like a reasonable thing to do.

If it's killing people who'd otherwise be euthanized if they had the option then arguably that's not a bad thing (noting that those opposed to the concept of euthanasia will obviously disagree).

But can anyone provide proper, accurate figures as to who's ending up dead, who suffers ongoing illness and so on? How many of those were on their death bed anyway? How many were in otherwise reasonable health? Actual figures that is, not ideological arguments. Someone must have the data.

It's hard to see how they've saved lives in coming years though?

If the answer is "economic" then that's really just an acknowledgement that we have an economic system that's not fit for purpose. It needs to serve the needs of society and there are going to be times when GDP goes down that's a given.

If the system isn't designed to cope with that sort of fluctuation without killing people then that's a rather serious flaw to say the least. As a society we'd be wise to heed this whole thing as a warning because it will bite at some point in the future due to some other trigger event that's almost certain.

If that is the case then it needs to be fixed, urgently, even if normal activity resumes literally tomorrow and the virus goes away. Unexploded bombs are dangerous things to have just sitting there.


----------



## basilio (26 July 2020)

I seriously wonder what it takes for people to reconsider the impact   of unrestrained  COVID 19 and still insist that stringent measures to control its spread should not be undertaken.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/coronavirus-outbreak


----------



## wayneL (26 July 2020)




----------



## basilio (26 July 2020)

Good analysis of why COVID 19 spreads so effectively in meatworks. 

*Meatworks and coronavirus: The 'domino effect' from Victoria's abattoirs pushing COVID-19 case numbers higher*

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-26/coronavirus-covid-19-meatworks-abattoirs-victoria/12490178


----------



## rederob (27 July 2020)

There are some interesting and changeable views on wearing a mask, aside from their proven effectiveness in mitigating transmission and, subsequently deaths:






The above shows positive cases, so here's the comparison for *deaths *(data as of Apr. 13, 2020):




Recent viral videos relating to folk in Victoria believing compulsory wearing of masks violates their human rights are deeply logically flawed.  If you want to live in a society that protects life and property then there need to be rules that balance liberties.  For example, just to be able to drive a car requires a number of conditions to be satisfied, and while driving there are many more rules to follow.  For your own safety and those of your passengers you are required by law to ensure that all occupants are buckled up before setting off, and the driver is forbidden from handling a mobile phone. Similarly, Health authorities at times of pandemic have legal responsibility to implement measures that protect the public from disease and death.


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## SirRumpole (27 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Recent viral videos




 Haha.


----------



## Value Collector (27 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Hey, don't knock him, he ended the drought.




And he helps people find their keys when they are running late for work.


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## sptrawler (27 July 2020)

Another issue is starting to present, the wife and I are going away for a week and the daughter can't get out of school care for the kids.
This means, that working parents have no where to put their kids, when they go to work.
I don't think our suburb is the only one with the issue, as there are two providers close to us and both are shutting down. My guess is they can't get workers, with the attractive handouts, I will try and find out more.
But this is going to become a huge problem, if it a widespread issue, grandparents can't do it forever.


----------



## basilio (27 July 2020)

New Guinea is the latest country to see a rapid surge in COVID 19. The health infrastructure is poor. 
What happens if it goes really bad ?

*Coronavirus cases in Papua New Guinea double in days*
Port Moresby hospital hit by staff shortages after emergency department workers test positive, bringing case tally to 62
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/27/coronavirus-cases-in-papua-new-guinea-double-in-days


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## moXJO (27 July 2020)

Couldn't attend a funeral as was only 20 people allowed and over 400 wanted to attend. They had to drive the body past 3 pubs and a workplace for those that wanted to attend. They also livestreamed it to the pub.

A lot of people did not get closure. I worry about the mental state of where a lot of people are at the moment. I think the mental health repercussions of living under covid will be a generational problem.


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## Sdajii (27 July 2020)

basilio said:


> New Guinea is the latest country to see a rapid surge in COVID 19. The health infrastructure is poor.
> What happens if it goes really bad ?
> 
> *Coronavirus cases in Papua New Guinea double in days*
> ...




A grand total of 62 active cases! Oh my!

New Guinea isn't a country by the way.

This highlights the futility of the current global insanity. Papua New Guinea had 11 cases, all recovered months ago. The country had no cases. With all the restrictions, precautions, and extra knowledge we have now compared to early in the year, an outbreak occurred anyway.

Look at Australia. The virus came to Australia early in the year, no one was ready, no one knew anything about it, no one was wearing masks, there was no lockdown, we peaked at around 5,000 known cases. *THEN* we went crazy, put many millions of Australian people out of work, destroyed countless businesses, left most people stressed, many depressed (I personally went through a very rough patch early on, I'm doing well now after radically restructuring my life after losing my business etc etc, but I currently have multiple friends with depression, extreme financial issues, and even some with suicidal ideation, and this seems to be a pretty big trend across the country and globally). Despite all of these extreme measures, a few little mistakes (the official narrative is that it was due to a handful of individual security guards not following protocols) we suddenly officially have more cases now than before. 

Are we seeing the big picture yet? You can't expect zero mistakes from tens of millions of people. If you can't erradicate it completely, which has literally never even been a goal of the Australian strategy, you will eventually have outbreaks. You can't keep people locked up forever because eventually in a democracy they will rebel (sure, in China or North Korea they will obey under fear of death/extreme punitive measures, but not in a democracy) and it's not ongoingly financially sustainable.

We literally had the best part of three months of constant dropping in cases, and then bang, today we have literally around 10 times as many confirmed active cases as the figure of one month ago. That's today, at the time when we know the most about it, with a population more willing and more able than ever (supposedly, and according to their own claims) before to stop it. And yet bang, a few people being silly and we have an explosion of thousands of cases, and still rapidly rising.

How do people think this makes sense? What exactly are we trying to achieve in our extraordinarily expensive and destructive quest to slightly delay the inevitable? Do these real world events not demonstrate the inevitability of spread? What will?

The global number of active cases continues to rise. The overall pattern can not be changed, and our most extreme efforts, which are extremely costly in terms of money, human wellbeing, and life, simply modify the timeframe just slightly.


----------



## basilio (27 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> Couldn't attend a funeral as was only 20 people allowed and over 400 wanted to attend. They had to drive the body past 3 pubs and a workplace for those that wanted to attend. They also livestreamed it to the pub.
> 
> A lot of people did not get closure. I worry about the mental state of where a lot of people are at the moment. I think the mental health repercussions of living under covid will be a generational problem.



It is very tough getting closure when wanting to farewell close friends and family who have died. Already had three friends and family pass away with similar very limited funerals.

*But the unflinching reality is that large funerals held during this COVID crisis have killed scores more people people who came to pay their respects.  Spread of the contagion during large funerals was horrific.*
Very difficult but essential.

https://www.seniorsnews.com.au/news/17-family-members-infected-at-funeral/3986050/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...ing-funeral-infected-100-200702100210137.html


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> A grand total of 62 active cases! Oh my!
> 
> New Guinea isn't a country by the way.
> 
> ...



The trouble with your post is that being right, you will incite anger from people whose whole view and reasoning is collapsing in front of facts.nothing worse than someone realising and knowing he/she was wrong and not admitting it.
Wait till the fake vaccine is released with a given efficiency given at 75 or 80pc..basically placebo
We will loose people:thousands and may they RIP but let the first wave come
people will not realise it, but it is actually the better outcome vs more deaths on a longer period and more economic devastation
But people know my views
Numbers before emotions


----------



## Sdajii (27 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> The trouble with your post is that being right, you will incite anger from people whose whole view and reasoning is collapsing in front of facts.nothing worse than someone realising and knowing he/she was wrong and not admitting it.
> Wait till the fake vaccine is released with a given efficiency given at 75 or 80pc..basically placebo
> We will loose people:thousands and may they RIP but let the first wave come
> people will not realise it, but it is actually the better outcome vs more deaths on a longer period and more economic devastation
> ...




Spot on. It's easy to fool people but extremely difficult to make them realise they've been fooled. People don't like admitting that they were wrong.

And yep, spot on about the fake vaccine. It's the only way for them to save face. It will be little more than a placebo, but the probably situation will be to say:

'This vaccine is the best we have to offer, and now that we have it, it will at least help to mitigate the impact by reducing numbers and reducing the severity of infections (never mind the fact that the reduction in both will be completely negligible!), we are now as prepared as we can be and must face the consequences'

We may see a resurrection of the 'flattening the curve' narrative, and since we won't have a comparison curve and the disease is far more mild than most assumed in early 2020, it will be easy for them to claim success and most people will believe (utterly wrongly) that the alternative would have been far worse, simply because they never got to see it.

In reality, it will be the same thing, but after having screwed the economy, mental health, etc etc, for no reason first.


----------



## wayneL (27 July 2020)




----------



## sptrawler (27 July 2020)

wayneL said:


>




It is a very interesting aspect of post GFC life, it shows how public opinion is so very fickle IMO, when life was bubbling along everyone was complaining about the price of everything e.g electricity, rent, housing, cost of living.
Now we have the situation where rents and house prices are falling and because no one can travel, the cost of living has reduced, unemployment has risen 4% but the ones who are working are doing better. The self funded are doing it tough so certain sectors of politics must be thrilled, the only glaring sector struggling appears to be the sector that grew fat through the boom years.
The government have kept total deaths down to a commendable level, so the purge continues.
The reset that everyone was asking for appears to be happening, even the climate activists are getting a reduction in emissions, no one appears to thinking about the positives.


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Spot on. It's easy to fool people but extremely difficult to make them realise they've been fooled. People don't like admitting that they were wrong.
> 
> And yep, spot on about the fake vaccine. It's the only way for them to save face. It will be little more than a placebo, but the probably situation will be to say:
> 
> ...



My view but actually looking forward to the fake vaccine so that we can restart living.
Trouble is it will probably be mandatory to travel etc and i will hate injecting myself with untested crap with potential terrible effects.no one will know.
Can i have the saline solution please
Anyway, the earlier the better and we will only have 10000 casualties...


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2020)

A


qldfrog said:


> My view but actually looking forward to the fake vaccine so that we can restart living.
> Trouble is it will probably be mandatory to travel etc and i will hate injecting myself with untested crap with potential terrible effects.no one will know.
> Can i have the saline solution please
> Anyway, the earlier the better and we will only have 10000 casualties...



 by the way not anti vax, i got basically everything inc yellow fever, rabies you name it, hep, etc etc


----------



## rederob (27 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> The trouble with your post is that being right, you will incite anger from people whose whole view and reasoning is collapsing in front of facts.nothing worse than someone realising and knowing he/she was wrong and not admitting it.



Aside from some international and interstate tourism, Queensland is doing pretty well at the moment.  I'm off to the footy next weekend to watch the Suns thump GWS.  The *fact* seems to be one where States/Territories closing borders has worked to keep multimillion Australians feeling relatively safe and returning to near business as usual.


qldfrog said:


> Wait till the fake vaccine is released with a given efficiency given at 75 or 80pc..basically placebo



One of your many baseless guesses.  Any +70% effective vaccine provides herd immunity.  A placebo will do zip.


qldfrog said:


> We will loose people:thousands and may they RIP but let the first wave come
> people will not realise it, but it is actually the better outcome vs more deaths on a longer period and more economic devastation



Why? 
Many other countries have COV19 under control via sustained mitigation practices.
Wanting another Victoria when it can and is being avoided does not make much sense.


Sdajii said:


> Spot on. It's easy to fool people but extremely difficult to make them realise they've been fooled. People don't like admitting that they were wrong.



Preventable deaths don't fool anyone.


Sdajii said:


> 'This vaccine is the best we have to offer, and now that we have it, it will at least help to mitigate the impact by reducing numbers and reducing the severity of infections (never mind the fact that the reduction in both will be completely negligible!), we are now as prepared as we can be and must face the consequences'



Not one epidemiologist would say that, so your seem to be clutching at straws.
Vaccine availability would immediately open up international travel and tourism.


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## basilio (27 July 2020)

No surprise  this is  happening..

*Daniel Andrews slams behaviour in 'Bunnings Karen' mask video*

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews has called out the "appalling" behaviour of people flouting Melbourne's strict coronavirus restrictions.

*Key points:*

A viral video shows a woman threatening to sue Bunnings over perceived discrimination
Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews said the behaviour was "appalling"
Wesfarmers Group boss Rob Scott said he was proud of his staff
The Premier's comments came in the wake of a video which went viral over the weekend, filmed by a woman who confronted Bunnings staff who asked her to wear a mask in one of the hardware chain's Melbourne stores.

In the video, the woman, dubbed a 'Karen' by many social media users, says "It's my right as a living woman to do what I want" and threatens to sue Bunnings "for being in breach" of the 1948 Charter of Human Rights.

"You are not authorised to ask me or question me about it," she said. "You're discriminating against me.

"I actually don't [have to wear a mask] and you're not authorised by the Australian Government to even question me about it.

"I can have you sued personally for discriminating against me as a woman."

And it goes on...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-27/leaders-respond-to-bunnings-karen-mask-video/12494382


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## sptrawler (27 July 2020)

Unless they make it compulsory, someone will always push the boundaries.


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## basilio (27 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Unless they make it compulsory, someone will always push the boundaries.




Wearing a mask in a public place is now compulsory  in Victoria. This woman is just trying create a self righteous stir.

A bit on an update on her complete BS about discrimnionation, violation of human rights etc from a lawyer.
Melbourne lawyer and activist Paul Kidd knows a thing or two about discrimination, and explained just how ill-informed the woman is in a Twitter thread:


_"CAN BUNNINGS FORCE YOU TO WEAR A MASK? No! They have no right to. BUT every Bunnings store is private property, and they decide who comes into their store, and can set conditions. If they ask you to put on a mask or leave, and you don't leave, that's the crime of trespass._
_IS IT DISCRIMINATION TO DEMAND YOU WEAR A MASK? Discrimination in Victoria means treating someone unfavourably because of a protected attribute, such as their sex/gender, age or disability. The woman in the video claims that Bunnings are discriminating against her on the of that group. And no, 'people (or women) who don't want to wear masks' isn't a protected group for that purpose. The scope of the discrimination law is set out in statute._
_'YOU CAN BE SUED PERSONALLY' FOR DISCRIMINATION STOP threatening ordinary workers/their managers for acting on their employers' instructions. Every one of us is going through this pandemic – folks working in Bunnings OR ANYWHERE shouldn't be the target of your misplaced anger._
_YOU CAN BE SUED UNDER THE 1948 CHARTER OF HUMAN RIGHTS There is no such document and you cannot be 'sued' under either it (q.e.d.) or under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948), because (insofar as it binds anybody) it binds countries, not individuals._
_I AM NOT GOING TO STOP RECORDING YOU, IT IS MY RIGHT No, you don't have any 'right' to record Dan the Bunnings Manager without his consent, in a private place. Bunnings decides what's allowed in their stores."_
_The rest of the story is worth reading. The woman does have doctors certificate to enable her to go out without a mask.  WTF for who knows._
https://honey.nine.com.au/latest/re...onavirus/c89a8bad-4e87-4200-af60-66093dd86b68


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## IFocus (27 July 2020)

I am really worried about all those people who are going to have O2 deficiency because they have to wear a mask..........you know like brain surgeons etc.......


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## wayneL (27 July 2020)

I have no doubt @basilio is wearing one, but I would like to see evidence that @rederob and @IFocus  are wearing them in their respective states.

I'm in Qld and I see maybe 1/200 wearing one... And absolutely nobody in my local area (outer bogan suburbs).

My outlaws report that it is probably pretty similar in Western Australia.

Photographic evidence will be accepted.


----------



## Sdajii (27 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> My view but actually looking forward to the fake vaccine so that we can restart living.
> Trouble is it will probably be mandatory to travel etc and i will hate injecting myself with untested crap with potential terrible effects.no one will know.
> Can i have the saline solution please
> Anyway, the earlier the better and we will only have 10000 casualties...




Yeah, I have pretty similar thoughts. I've never before been anti vax, I totally recognise the good which vaccinations have done for the world, I came from a hardcore antivax family but as a teenager old enough to understand the world I took it upon myself to get the vaccinations I missed as a child, hopefully I managed to get them all, and I've voluntarily paid for some of the non essential ones too, plus I try to get the flu vaccines when I'm in Australia at the right time in the season (which I'm usually not, but when it's an option I do it). But, this is the first time I'm really sus about a vaccine and I'd prefer not to have it. I'm reasonably sure it will be fairly safe, but for two reasons it will be by far the riskiest vaccine given to the public for decades. #1) Is the unprecedentedly low amount of testing and development time; usually vaccines take many years to develop and test, and they're trying to rush this one through in a fraction of the time usually considered essential to be sure of reasonable safety. #2) Is that there is a massive demand to rush this through even if it's not necessarily safe (a much greater willingness to turn a blind eye to possible risks). 
A low ability to detect risks does not mix well with a lower motivation to find them and a higher motivation to tolerate or ignore them.

The above wouldn't concern me so much if the virus was either really really bad, or even if the vaccine was effective, but when neither is the case, this is not a vaccine I want to be taking.

There is a very serious risk of this vaccine causing a massive global backlash against vaccines; the anti vaccers are already quite a considerable force with huge numbers. If we force people to take an unsafe and ineffective vaccine, there will be a huge legitimisation of their movement. If a lot of people get sick or have whatever negative effect, it'll be devastating for the moment, and since it will be demonstrably ineffective, it will clearly make people say 'See? Vaccines don't work anyway!'. This will be the most high profile vaccine in history, which is the absolute worst possible one to get wrong, and that's almost certainly going to be what happens.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (27 July 2020)

I don't think many people will be lining up for this vaccine because the sense of urgency suggests that the vaccine has been rushed; that is if they can even develop a vaccine.


----------



## Sdajii (27 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I don't think many people will be lining up for this vaccine because the sense of urgency suggests that the vaccine has been rushed; that is if they can even develop a vaccine.




No vaccine is 100% safe or 100% effective. This one will probably be safe (definitely rushed and less certain than we'd want or usually accept or should accept now) and is effectively guaranteed not to be effective. To create a vaccine for this virus is technically very much equivalent to creating a vaccine for SARS (it's closely related, works in a similar way, a vaccine would correspondingly be much the same thing but with a different set of antigens to play with, which functionally is no different in terms of the difficulty or likelihood of success). As with literally every other coronavirus ever worked with (there have been many and they've been at it for many decades, including the best part of 20 years on SARS), there has been no success.

They can doubtlessly produce a 'vaccine' which will induce the production of antibodies by the immune system, which will sort of help... in the same way that pouring a cup of water on a house protects it from bushfires (barely at all, almost no chance of preventing the house catching fire, and only if the bushfire comes along shortly after you pour the glass of water). But politically, they absolutely need a vaccine, it is almost unconditional at this point, so in the absence of an effective one, a pretend one will have to do.

If you think the system would never allow such a farce, just take a look at any of the blatant farcical claims and absurd actions by the WHO and other political organisations around the world so far this year.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (27 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> No vaccine is 100% safe or 100% effective. This one will probably be safe (definitely rushed and less certain than we'd want or usually accept or should accept now) and is effectively guaranteed not to be effective. To create a vaccine for this virus is technically very much equivalent to creating a vaccine for SARS (it's closely related, works in a similar way, a vaccine would correspondingly be much the same thing but with a different set of antigens to play with, which functionally is no different in terms of the difficulty or likelihood of success). As with literally every other coronavirus ever worked with (there have been many and they've been at it for many decades, including the best part of 20 years on SARS), there has been no success.
> 
> They can doubtlessly produce a 'vaccine' which will induce the production of antibodies by the immune system, which will sort of help... in the same way that pouring a cup of water on a house protects it from bushfires (barely at all, almost no chance of preventing the house catching fire, and only if the bushfire comes along shortly after you pour the glass of water). But politically, they absolutely need a vaccine, it is almost unconditional at this point, so in the absence of an effective one, a pretend one will have to do.
> 
> If you think the system would never allow such a farce, just take a look at any of the blatant farcical claims and absurd actions by the WHO and other political organisations around the world so far this year.




And then when people are still getting the virus, they will turn on the politicians. What you're suggesting is political suicide. I don't think politicians would be stupid enough to support an ineffective vaccine.


----------



## Sdajii (27 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> And then when people are still getting the virus, they will turn on the politicians. What you're suggesting is political suicide. I don't think politicians would be stupid enough to support an ineffective vaccine.




They probably have no choice. Either they admit they're wrong now and take the Sweden route (this is what they should do for the good of the country, but they won't because it's political suicide), or they just give up at some point next year when the virus is spreading because we can no longer keep everyone isolated due to logistical, social and economic reasons, and the insanity is revealed (political suicide), or they go with the second option with the addition of giving everyone the fake vaccine, and claim that without the vaccine it would have been much worse, and it's a good thing we waited for it.

This will be an easy enough story to sell and most people will eat it up. If you're gobbling up the current story, you will gobble up the upcoming one along with most people.

Unless you can see an alternative course of action which I'm missing.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (27 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> They probably have no choice. Either they admit they're wrong now and take the Sweden route (this is what they should do for the good of the country, but they won't because it's political suicide), or they just give up at some point next year when the virus is spreading because we can no longer keep everyone isolated due to logistical, social and economic reasons, and the insanity is revealed (political suicide), or they go with the second option with the addition of giving everyone the fake vaccine, and claim that without the vaccine it would have been much worse, and it's a good thing we waited for it.
> 
> This will be an easy enough story to sell and most people will eat it up. If you're gobbling up the current story, you will gobble up the upcoming one along with most people.
> 
> Unless you can see an alternative course of action which I'm missing.




Being honest, isn't necessarily political suicide; deliberately breaching the trust of the public to take an ineffective vaccine could be considered a varying degree of murder if people get the virus and die.

Being honest and saying that we don't have a vaccine and we are reopening our economy; everyone be warned that they should proceed with caution is very different. In saying this; I am not advocating to reopen without a vaccine.


----------



## qldfrog (27 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Being honest, isn't necessarily political suicide; deliberately breaching the trust of the public to take an ineffective vaccine could be considered a varying degree of murder if they get the virus and die.
> 
> Being honest and saying that we don't have a vaccine and we are reopening our economy; everyone be warned that they should proceed with caution is very different. In saying this; I am not advocating to reopen without a vaccine.



You just have to say the vaccine boosts your defence and reduce the risk but is nit perfect.
People are already unable/unwilling to compare the Swedish response to full lockdown:
They will never compare with/without that vaccine
If Sweden for example foes not vaccinate, you can say they were protected by their neighbours etc
The fake vaccine is an easy story to sell.
Wait the end of winter to release it and we will see how efficient it is, with cases dropping etc..as it did this summer in Europe..just with sun
But please bring it on ASAP, just do not force me to do it


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (27 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> You just have to say the vaccine boosts your defence and reduce the risk but is nit perfect.
> People are already unable/unwilling to compare the Swedish response to full lockdown:
> They will never compare with/without that vaccine
> If Sweden for example foes not vaccinate, you can say they were protected by their neighbours etc
> ...




Even that is misleading. I don't think you will get many politicians that will go along with this idea. Personally I disagree with it.


----------



## moXJO (27 July 2020)

I wear one if I have been coughing at home or feel under the weather. I'd probably wear one if I was bundled in a room full of people. But its not really going to protect you if you don't have the virus  and are wearing a mask.

Its more to contain your germs. If you take it off incorrectly you probably expose yourself more.  You could effectively walk around with a shirt over your mouth and nose for similar effect.


----------



## moXJO (28 July 2020)

basilio said:


> It is very tough getting closure when wanting to farewell close friends and family who have died. Already had three friends and family pass away with similar very limited funerals.
> 
> *But the unflinching reality is that large funerals held during this COVID crisis have killed scores more people people who came to pay their respects.  Spread of the contagion during large funerals was horrific.*
> Very difficult but essential.
> ...




More an observation than an attack against the law. People have already shown they need these laws in place (Victoria).


----------



## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Even that is misleading. I don't think you will get many politicians that will go along with this idea. Personally I disagree with it.




It's funny that you seem to have faith in the honesty of politicians.


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## Smurf1976 (28 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> The fake vaccine is an easy story to sell.
> Wait the end of winter to release it and we will see how efficient it is, with cases dropping etc..as it did this summer in Europe..just with sun
> But please bring it on ASAP, just do not force me to do it




If government was going to go down that track, a vaccine and then that allows the economy to re-open, I expect that anyone who didn't receive it would find themselves ostracised in practice.

Government might not force you to have it but fair chance all sorts of businesses decide to impose conditions of entry and the law backs them in doing so. Eg Airlines are one that may well decide no vaccination certificate = no boarding.

Not having it would thus become somewhat like choosing to not have a mobile phone, credit card or any form of photo ID. No law saying you must do it, government isn't forcing you, but in practice you'll have a lot of trouble living a normal life if you don't go along with it.


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## Chronos-Plutus (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> It's funny that you seem to have faith in the honesty of politicians.




I like to live my life with an element of integrity. How could I, in good conscience, endorse an act that will breach the trust of my follow citizens; which may mislead them into a false sense of security, that could result in them getting a disease and dying. This is why I disagree with you here. I am just an Australian citizen who invests and trades to try and make a crust; however if I was a politician, this is how I would think.

Being deceitful to protect your nation and citizens, against foreign enemies and threats, is a different story.


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## Smurf1976 (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Unless you can see an alternative course of action which I'm missing.




The alternative would be if eradication is actually possible.

I'm unconvinced either way on that but if (hypothetically) it turns out that WA, Tas, SA, NT have actually done it well then that's a huge political problem for anyone in Victoria or NSW arguing that it can't be done.

It's one thing politically if Melbourne or Sydney are struggling to achieve something (anything, not necessarily pandemic-related) that's been done in a big city overseas. A somewhat more embarrassing problem politically if they're scrambling to catch up to Adelaide or Hobart.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> It's funny that you seem to have faith in the honesty of politicians.




Why don't we get a team of the best Australian health professionals that specialise in virology and put them in the room with Scomo's COVID Commission (https://www.pmc.gov.au/ncc/who-we-are)

Also a few economists from Treasury and the RBA, should be in that room.

Then we might be able to get some coordination on national policy and direction.


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## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The alternative would be if eradication is actually possible.




How can anyone suggest this with a straight face? Honestly, have you given it any thought at all? It makes utterly no sense to suggest we can eradicate it. Even in the impossible scenario of complete eradication in Australia. Magical aliens come down and completely eliminate it from the continent, all it takes is one person coming in with it and the whole thing starts again. Clearly it's absurd to think we'll eradicate it from the whole planet without the medical equivalent of a technological miracle which makes the Manhattan Project look like a primary school science project, so we are sooner or later going to have an outbreak, unless we forever have extraordinary limits on people coming in and out of Australia and also live in perpetual paranoia level lockdown (because periodically infected people will come in, and without paranoia level quarantine and lockdown, they will result in rapid outbreaks - just look at what happens now, even in the middle of paranoia level, official state of emergency!).



> I'm unconvinced either way on that but if (hypothetically) it turns out that WA, Tas, SA, NT have actually done it well then that's a huge political problem for anyone in Victoria or NSW arguing that it can't be done.




It's possible to do in a place like WA or NT, it's probably not possible in a place like NSW or VIC - the climate is better for the virus and the people are too densely populated. There are also politically incorrect issues I can't openly state on social media which pose greater challenges in these states, particularly Victoria (facts are hate speech these days, even when lives are lost by that censorship).

But again, You'll never eliminate it from either of the world's two large land masses, and they will forever be a source of reinfection for anywhere else. There are about 200 countries in the world, some of them have at least officially eradicated it and likely some of them actually have done so, but then we have examples of them being reinfected, and there are new places having new infections. New Zealand officially beat it but had an infected person break out of quarantine and go shopping just recently. PNG has a sizeable outbreak right now from a recent source new to the country, after months of being free from the virus. 



> It's one thing politically if Melbourne or Sydney are struggling to achieve something (anything, not necessarily pandemic-related) that's been done in a big city overseas. A somewhat more embarrassing problem politically if they're scrambling to catch up to Adelaide or Hobart.




A lot of it comes down to luck, and Adelaide and Hobart are for various reasons not as challenging as Melbourne or Sydney. Larger cities are inherently much more difficult. There are very relevant demographic differences. Melbourne has a very high diversity of... humanity, and some demographics are higher risk than others. Human nature is what it is. Government policy doesn't change that. 

Either way, eradication has never been Australia's policy. It was 'flatten the curve' and now as soon as cases get low (as opposed to zero) they relax the measures. There is clearly no attempt being made to eradicate. At least doing so would make sense, because there would be an actual goal. As it is, we're playing an insane strategy of attempting to keep it at a very low level without eliminating it but getting freaked out if half a dozen 90 year olds die. Do people think they had their lives ahead of them and were going to live to 1,090? Since when do we have national mourning over the death of half a dozen people, all of whom were over the average life expectancy? Why do we not care about the other 450 odd people who die *every day* in Australia? If saving lives is so important, why are we ignoring all of the preventable deaths out of those hundreds who die every day? Literally every day in Australia we have multiples of total number of human deaths caused by COVID-19.


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## Smurf1976 (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> How can anyone suggest this with a straight face? Honestly, have you given it any thought at all? It makes utterly no sense to suggest we can eradicate it.



Easy.

Perth, population 2 million, isn't exactly a little country town and Tasmania in the middle of winter isn't exactly warm. About the only thing in common between them is that both have at least possibly eradicated it.

If it turns out they haven't really done it well then it's a failure but at this stage it seems at least plausible.

Everything from aircraft to share trading are "impossible" if you make a half-hearted attempt which fails and then give up. Given what's at stake, it would be foolish to not pursue all possible options.


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## Smurf1976 (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> If saving lives is so important, why are we ignoring all of the preventable deaths out of those hundreds who die every day? Literally every day in Australia we have multiples of total number of human deaths caused by COVID-19.




Those things are indeed addressed so far as practical.

Compare a 1980 car and the road rules and enforcement thereof versus a 2020 car, rules and enforcement. All up being in a car is now massively safer and countless $ billions have been spent on that.

Look at workplace safety. Like many, I've personally done things in the past that were normal at the time but downright dangerous by modern standards. Compare now with even the relatively recent past, 1990's, and it's night versus day.

Pretty much no private home had any sort of fire alarm in it 35 years ago whereas smoke detectors are are compulsory in at least some states today and common everywhere to the point that even supermarkets sell them.

The outdoor air in the CBD of even relatively small cities tested as unsafe for both asbestos and lead back in the 1980's. Since then we'll we haven't got rid of all asbestos but there's drastically less of it being dealt with and fibres released and much the same with lead, there's drastically less of it being released into the air in cities than was the case not too long ago.

30 years ago someone could have lit up a cigarette in the main area of any indoor shopping centre and nobody would have thought twice about it. Do it today and you'd be promptly escorted off the property.

And so on. It's by no means perfect but much has been done to avoid unnecessary deaths yes and especially so where exposure to the hazard is involuntary whilst going about normal life.


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## qldfrog (28 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> If government was going to go down that track, a vaccine and then that allows the economy to re-open, I expect that anyone who didn't receive it would find themselves ostracised in practice.
> 
> Government might not force you to have it but fair chance all sorts of businesses decide to impose conditions of entry and the law backs them in doing so. Eg Airlines are one that may well decide no vaccination certificate = no boarding.
> 
> Not having it would thus become somewhat like choosing to not have a mobile phone, credit card or any form of photo ID. No law saying you must do it, government isn't forcing you, but in practice you'll have a lot of trouble living a normal life if you don't go along with it.



Sxdly well aware of that..
So how much life expectancy am i going to loose by taking it, is it worth it.?
Number game again, no emotion.
My life but still managed by the same stats.i still drive while being at risk, but not at 150km on a wet road


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## qldfrog (28 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Easy.
> 
> Perth, population 2 million, isn't exactly a little country town and Tasmania in the middle of winter isn't exactly warm. About the only thing in common between them is that both have at least possibly eradicated it.
> 
> ...



Very simple: do you think possible to have eradication world-wide?
I think it is pretty clear that the answer is no? Can anyone even try to disagree on that?
So out of this now fact
If we eradicate tomorrow in OZ.we xan argue it is or was possible.i agree it could but for what next
What next is where economic cost collapsed
We were not even able to stop boat landing from shri Lanka.
Is the nayi now going to blow them up on sight?
Yo norrh in thr Torrens straigh,our birders are porous with png,and Indonesia fishermen.
If we want to export, boays and crews have to touch land here etc
So either you hope dream of a vaccine working and that is then an option or you fully insolate Australia
No boat plane and we become even better than North Korea.
Anything else will fail now tomorrow or next month year.ad for the costs in human lives. Millions wo medicine...
Let's be thankful that the winter spread in the south is ending that craziness.


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## qldfrog (28 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Very simple: do you think possible to have eradication world-wide?
> I think it is pretty clear that the answer is no? Can anyone even try to disagree on that?
> So out of this now fact
> If we eradicate tomorrow in OZ.we xan argue it is or was possible.i agree it could but for what next
> ...



arrrrgg I have to give up even trying posting from my phone.Apologies for the mangling


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## spooly74 (28 July 2020)

Interesting take on spread.
Makes sense when you look at the localised outbreaks in clubs, restaurants & care homes.


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## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Easy.
> 
> Perth, population 2 million, isn't exactly a little country town and Tasmania in the middle of winter isn't exactly warm. About the only thing in common between them is that both have at least possibly eradicated it.
> 
> ...




Tasmania is literally an island with a small population with low population density.

Perth (or the Perth region) is effectively an island.

Not only to Melbourne and Sydney both have populations each of which are multiples of Perth's, they both are surrounded by many other cities, interspersed by countless small towns. Perth on the other hand is by far Australia's most remote capital.

Melbourne itself has twice the population of Western Australia! Western Australia is Australia's largest state by a long way. The population densities of NSW and VIC are far, far higher than any other state. Melbourne and Sydney.

The difficulty in eradicating a virus, especially one like this, geometrically increases with population size (as well as things like climate, cultural practices, etc etc). Melbourne and Sydney individually are each twice the size of any other capital and many times the size of most of them, in addition to being in the middle of dense clusters and cities.

Comparing NSW or Victoria with anywhere else in the country is like looking at the difference between stepping over a footrail and an Olympic level pole vault.

And yes, an Olympic pole vault is possible, and it might be technically possible to eradicate if we ignored several realities such as the inevitable civil disobedience and the political suicide required to make it happen (just two of the countless items). If we just had an orderly execution of everyone over 70 years of age, kept everyone under house arrest other than those delivering food etc, and said we didn't care about the suicides etc etc, and anyone disobeying the rules was to be shot on sight, sure, we'd have it eradicated in a month or two. With less extreme measures we could probably eliminate it in about 3-6 months. If it's going to take longer than that it's not going to happen, and the measures required to completely eradicate it in that timeframe from Victoria and NSW are far beyond the practical and political reality of Australia. If we were Chinese under the rule of Chinese dictatorship, yes, for Australia, no problem. In China with Chinese dictatorship but their population dynamics and geographic position, no, probably not. In somewhere like India, hah, no way at all. Somewhere like New Zealand? Piece of cake (but you're going to have continual reinfection unless you turn the place into Sentinel Island, and this is true for Australia too).


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## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Those things are indeed addressed so far as practical.
> 
> Compare a 1980 car and the road rules and enforcement thereof versus a 2020 car, rules and enforcement. All up being in a car is now massively safer and countless $ billions have been spent on that.




So here we have a case where that money is actually going into providing jobs for people (all those lab techs, designers, testers, etc etc etc). No one's life is being harmed by it, the cost per car is comfortable, and road deaths worldwide are quite high, and tend to hit people in the prime of their lives. Makes sense.



> Look at workplace safety. Like many, I've personally done things in the past that were normal at the time but downright dangerous by modern standards. Compare now with even the relatively recent past, 1990's, and it's night versus day.




Here we see another significant cause of human fatality and injury, and again, it makes sense. Different countries strike a different point of balance between freedom and efficiency and safety. Australia in my opinion goes too far on the side of paranoia, but is much closer to the sweet spot than the global average. Each country sets its own point. When I first went to Asia I was astonished at how far in the other direction many countries go, and during my years there I became accustomed to seeing the sort of crazy examples of workplace danger Australians share in memes, but I was seeing them in real life almost daily. No one there thinks it's strange, and yes, they do have more workplace accidents, but globally that's more in line with normal, and proportionate to deaths, far less is put into this issue which kills far, far, far more people than the virus. Even in Australia, where workplace safety is slightly to the paranoia side (yes, in my opinion, but is undeniably right at the absolute extreme of the spectrum by global standards, but let's say Australia is perfectly on the appropriate level for argument's sake), a ridiculously higher amount of resources are being spent on COVID-19, orders of magnitude higher, which clearly makes it inappropriate.



> Pretty much no private home had any sort of fire alarm in it 35 years ago whereas smoke detectors are are compulsory in at least some states today and common everywhere to the point that even supermarkets sell them.




Again, this is just a very cheap and easy thing to do. It doesn't solve all house fires, people still die in house fires, but it's clearly worthwhile. This is the COVID-19 equivalent of putting 'Everyone wash your hands' ad campaigns on the telly once in a while. Perfectly logical, reasonable and worthwhile.



> The outdoor air in the CBD of even relatively small cities tested as unsafe for both asbestos and lead back in the 1980's. Since then we'll we haven't got rid of all asbestos but there's drastically less of it being dealt with and fibres released and much the same with lead, there's drastically less of it being released into the air in cities than was the case not too long ago.




Again, this is all perfectly sensible and doesn't hurt anyone. We don't shut down industries and destroy lives here. We create a few jobs and make people safer. It makes sense, bravo.



> 30 years ago someone could have lit up a cigarette in the main area of any indoor shopping centre and nobody would have thought twice about it. Do it today and you'd be promptly escorted off the property.




I'm pretty sure this hasn't ruined anyone's lives. I don't think many businesses were forced into closure because of this. I actually think Australia has gone way too far in this regard (I say this as a non smoker who would ideally prefer zero exposure to cigarette smoke), I like people having the freedom to smoke in a restaurant if they want to, I like restaurants being able to choose whether to allow smoking or not. I miss people being allowed to smoke in comedy clubs, I think it's sad that you can't have a pub where people can enjoy a cigarette at the bar. I enjoy the feeling of freedom in countries like Japan where you can smoke anywhere you want to, including in any restaurant. I was surprised, amused, and I actually really enjoyed having the chefs in restaurants in Japan smoking over my food as they cooked it (something I wouldn't have expected and I can't even quite describe why I like it, but it's probably just a demonstration of a lack of state enforcement and a display of human freedom). Either way, the point is, we haven't done any harm by banning smoking from indoor public spaces. Even if I don't like it I'm content to accept it. We didn't have to ruin the economy to do this, it costs effectively zero.



> And so on. It's by no means perfect but much has been done to avoid unnecessary deaths yes and especially so where exposure to the hazard is involuntary whilst going about normal life.




All these examples prove my point and shoot your own down in flames.


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## basilio (28 July 2020)

ICYMI, here is what made headlines overnight:

The coronavirus pandemic "continues to accelerate", with a doubling of cases over the last six weeks
A genetic mutation that made the new coronavirus more infectious may also make it more vulnerable to vaccines
More than three-quarters of recently recovered COVID-19 patients had heart muscle problems show up in MRI tests
The world's biggest COVID-19 vaccine study has entered the later stages of testing
Indonesia has confirmed more than 100,000 cases of COVID-19, the most in Southeast Asia
 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...ews-covid-19-victoria-daniel-andrews/12497838


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## IFocus (28 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> I have no doubt @basilio is wearing one, but I would like to see evidence that @rederob and @IFocus  are wearing them in their respective states.
> 
> I'm in Qld and I see maybe 1/200 wearing one... And absolutely nobody in my local area (outer bogan suburbs).
> 
> ...




Those that I have seen wearing masks here (WA) have underling health issues that makes catching COV19 certain death.

Having said that the main benefits as I understand is for others (if using surgical mask or lesser) plus some thing not raised it reduces your hand to mouth / nose contact which is critical.

Having had to wear masks most of my working life from SCBA / full face down to P2 (unfortunately not during 70's / early 80's working with asbestos Meso will likely get me one day) I find it incredibly unbelievable that people wont comply for the safety of others but dwell on their own feelings / so called freedoms its quite extraordinary.

I think the governments / health officers advice early when PPE stocks were criticality low and they were trying to gather any stock up to protect front line health staff that masks were not of great benefit has now played into peoples minds that its a waste of time.

The whole thing is purely a numbers probability thing where each step helps build a barrier and reduce the risk (reminds me when writing high voltage isolation plans / permits SP / Smurf will know what I mean). No barrier on its own is the silver bullet but each barrier you put in reduces human failure / circumstances, more barriers less the risk.

I assume the continuing high numbers in Victoria means not enough people are following the rules anyone have a different view on the ground there?

Spooly have seen that before looks very credible.


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## IFocus (28 July 2020)

basilio said:


> ICYMI, here is what made headlines overnight:
> 
> The coronavirus pandemic "continues to accelerate", with a doubling of cases over the last six weeks
> A genetic mutation that made the new coronavirus more infectious may also make it more vulnerable to vaccines
> ...




Is the heart thing to do with reduced O2 caused by the virus?

I think going forward *if *the death rate / infection rate gets of the daily headlines ongoing health issues will come to the fore


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## SirRumpole (28 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> Those that I have seen wearing masks here (WA) have underling health issues that makes catching COV19 certain death.




May I enquire how you came to that conclusion ?


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## IFocus (28 July 2020)

Not sure how old people are here.

But In my life time I couldn't enter certain countries without being vaccinated for certain diseases Yellow Fever being one.

I still remember the quarantine stations (here in Australia) that people getting off ships had to pass through to control certain diseases coming in to the general population.

I suspect its going to be a return to the past (quarantine areas on entry not hotels in all countries) in a lot of things and those that have lived lets face it protected lives are going to have to toughen up (just a little).

In answer to why we are doing what is happening now?

Its pretty simple and nothing to do with politicians / people / feelings / freedoms / left / right / I don't know pick any argument.

Actions currently taken is from the advice from a very large group of professional experts (who have spent their entire lives working on this stuff not 4 months on facebook / utube) in weighing up the harm / risks / health outcomes  not on any one group in the community but the population as a whole.


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## basilio (28 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> I assume the continuing high numbers in Victoria means not enough people are following the rules anyone have a different view on the ground there?




Not sure about that..
I suspect that the spread of virus in  aged care facilities will be extremely hard to contain.  Frankly many older/demented people will be unable to tolerate ongoing masks which will be required if they are to be protected or protect others.

The next issue is the spread of the virus in the community. This will be largely driven by the infections of staff in these homes bringing it back to their families and friends. This should be more easily controlled by masks/hygiene.

There is also the situation of hundreds of health care workers infected.

The "masks for everyone" rule is to effectively add some  protection to people from picking up the virus from current carriers already out there. It won't be perfect but will certainly play a big role.


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## wayneL (28 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> Not sure how old people are here.
> 
> But In my life time I couldn't enter certain countries without being vaccinated for certain diseases Yellow Fever being one.
> 
> ...



Leaving aside true antivaxers, the concern breaks down to risk/reward.

The obvious concern is that the Vax may be more dangerous than the disease.

The equine Hendra Vax is a case in point, it kills many more equines, and causes a crapper load more of severe adverse reactions than those actually affected by Hendra virus.

Hence the class action against Zoetis.

May I remind people of the Thalidomide fiasco of what happens when pharmaceuticals go wrong.

I don't think the great majority of people are anti vaccine but rather anti "safe"vaccine.

When you consider that this virus has a greater than 99% survival rate, and multitudes greater than that when people do not have any comorbidities, the safety of any vaccine must reflect that reality.

In other words a vaccine must have many times lesser effect on humans then the disease, otherwise there is no point to the vaccine.

A vax that is rushed through the process cannot be assures this result, hence the distrust.

The vaccines that you have mentioned in your post do actually reflect this metric, and is the reason for their broad acceptance.

When comparing vaccines to vaccines one must compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.


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## basilio (28 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Leaving aside true antivaxers, the concern breaks down to risk/reward.
> 
> The obvious concern is that the Vax may be more dangerous than the disease.
> 
> ...




All makes sense.

I would add however that COVIDS effect on people is not as minimal as you may suggest. In theory the mortality rate is 1%.  However there is enough experience now to indicate that longer term effects on people who have had a serious infection is also substantial. I don't believe that can be disregarded.

The query about possible side effects of the vaccine ? Absolutely. And on top of that legitimate concerns about the safeguards in producing the vaccine. One of the worst cases of people affected by a vaccine was when the first Polio vaccines were distributed and one batch was actually infecting people. In this case making a serious mistake and hurting millions of people would be disastrous.

Another valid question would be "How long should testing be done on a range of people to check out possible short *and longer term* side effects ? " Not an easy one to answer..

I have to say I am surprised at the speed of this development.


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## wayneL (28 July 2020)

basilio said:


> All makes sense.
> 
> I would add however that COVIDS effect on people is not as minimal as you may suggest. In theory the mortality rate is 1%.  However there is enough experience now to indicate that longer term effects on people who have had a serious infection is also substantial. I don't believe that can be disregarded.
> 
> ...



The challenge for we plebeians is deciphering the motives.

It would be pretty cynical to disregard any motive for the greater good, ie saving peoples lives and improving health.

But there is also the profit motive. This will be huge for any company getting a vaccine to market.... *first*.

These two motives are in competition with each other and we are generally not naive, we understand that.

Once again we get back into risk vs reward. It *could be* that people refraining from vaccination may be excluded from certain societal functions. But is that worth the possible, probably unknown side effects?

That, is a really important question.


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## basilio (28 July 2020)

Daniel Andrews has bitten the bullet and decided that private aged care facilities don't have the capacity to effectively deal with COVID 19.  Is this a surprise ? 

Gutsy call but it seems Morrison is backing him up and the State and Commonwealth governments are jointly working to ensure a better outcome in aged care centres than is currently happening.

*Premier Daniel Andrews says he has no confidence in private aged care Covid-19 response*

.....Andrews said in facilities where the state government had “no confidence in infection control, where there is no confidence that care can be provided to a suitable standard, then we will do everything we can to move those residents out” and into hospitals.
“I cannot stand here and tell you that I have confidence that staff and management across a number of private sector aged care facilities are able to provide the care that is appropriate to keep their residents safe,” Andrews said.

“If I could say that, I would. We don’t run this sector but the residents in these homes are all Victorians. The commonwealth government have asked for help and that is exactly what my government and our agencies will provide to them.”

....Andrews and Morrison reiterated that the aged care challenge was a shared one governments would need to cooperate on to contain.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...idence-in-private-aged-care-covid-19-response


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## SirRumpole (28 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Daniel Andrews has bitten the bullet and decided that private aged care facilities don't have the capacity to effectively deal with COVID 19.  Is this a surprise ?
> 
> Gutsy call but it seems Morrison is backing him up and the State and Commonwealth governments are jointly working to ensure a better outcome in aged care centres than is currently happening.
> 
> ...




Pity he didn't realise that private security guards in hotel quarantine couldn't do the job either.


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## IFocus (28 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Leaving aside true antivaxers, the concern breaks down to risk/reward.
> 
> The obvious concern is that the Vax may be more dangerous than the disease.
> 
> ...




Agree re vaccines haven't seen any thing where a case is made for unsafe vaccine deployment not to say it wont happen, I wont be 1st in line along with most I suspect.

The 99% survival rate argument fails to address that's applicable if all hospital required cases are treated and that the system isn't over whelmed preventing treatment for other life threatening conditions.

It also fails to address the longer term implications of the disease that is still largely unknown as there is only around 6 months of clinical experience with the virus.


On a different note re the economy.

The Swedes  are repeatedly quoted as the way to keep the economy open compared to its neighbours the numbers now don't back that view.

NYT

"Sweden’s central bank expects its economy to contract by 4.5 percent this year, a revision from a previously expected gain of 1.3 percent. The unemployment rate jumped to 9 percent in May from 7.1 percent in March. “The overall damage to the economy means the recovery will be protracted, with unemployment remaining elevated,” Oxford Economics concluded in a recent research note.

This is more or less how damage caused by the pandemic has played out in Denmark, where the central bank expects that the economy will shrink 4.1 percent this year, and where joblessness has edged up to 5.6 percent in May from 4.1 percent in March.

In short, Sweden suffered a vastly higher death rate while failing to collect on the expected economic gains."

"Norway, on the other hand, was not only quick to impose an aggressive lockdown, but early to relax it as the virus slowed, and as the government ramped up testing. It is now expected to see a more rapid economic turnaround. Norway’s central bank predicts that its mainland economy — excluding the turbulent oil and gas sector — will contract by 3.9 percent this year. That amounts to a marked improvement over the 5.5 percent decline expected in the midst of the lockdown."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html


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## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

basilio said:


> All makes sense.
> 
> I would add however that COVIDS effect on people is not as minimal as you may suggest. In theory the mortality rate is 1%.  However there is enough experience now to indicate that longer term effects on people who have had a serious infection is also substantial. I don't believe that can be disregarded.




We keep hearing this vague statement being repeated in the media and parroted in social media, without and solid data to back it up. It's much like the reference to some 3 year old kid somewhere in the world who died (obviously omitting to mention the congenital defects the child was born with), being used to say "See? It doesn't just affect old people!"

We literally have over 10 million documented recoveries (and probably many times that number of recoveries who were too mild to be noticed, many of whom didn't even realise they were infected with anything at all). Permanent damage doesn't show up after you're already over it (this is a ridiculous notion so many people are assuming!). Permanent damage is damage which is already done, exists after the virus is out of the system, and won't ever go away. It doesn't first show up after the virus is out of the system then never go away. The worst 10 million cases so far don't show this, yet we still somehow have an insane 'it's too soon to be sure' narrative.

Many people are so quick to hype up hypothetical or even demonstrably fictional problems of the virus, yet discount and actual, tangible problems of the mitigation efforts, or discount any potential hazards of a vaccine. It never makes sense to use a cure or mitigation strategy unless you are sufficiently sure that you are doing significantly more good than harm. Generally people have a firm grasp of this basic concept, but on this issue it has flown straight out the window, put on a disguise then jumped on a train.


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## IFocus (28 July 2020)

A comment from the NYT's above

"

citybumpkin
Earth
July 8
Times Pick


I know people probably feel like a lot is attributed to racism these days. But really, the popular obsession with praising and following Sweden’s model, in contrast with refusal to follow what South Korea or Taiwan has done, makes me wonder. Sweden has 5,447 COVID deaths out of a population less than 10 million. South Korea has 5 times that population but only 285 deaths. And really, if you want comparisons, how people live in the Seoul Metropolitan Area is closer to big American population centers like the New York’s metro region (whose population is bigger than all of Sweden’s.) But why this eternal obsession with all things nordic, and disdain to learn from Asia?
"


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## basilio (28 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Pity he didn't realise that private security guards in hotel quarantine couldn't do the job either.




Isn't hindsight wonderful ? 

The failure to properly supervise and manage the security around hotels has resulted in a catastrophic outcome. It seems almost all the current outbreaks can be traced  back to guards and their families and friends.

I'm certain these possible consequences could have been recognised at the time but clearly "*everyone thought some else was taking care of the problem*"..

And I also believe that the  doctors /epidemiologists who would have expressed these concerns would have been dismissed as alarmists.
Be interesting to see what the investigation reveals about the processes.


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## SirRumpole (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> We keep hearing this vague statement being repeated in the media and parroted in social media, without and solid data to back it up. It's much like the reference to some 3 year old kid somewhere in the world who died (obviously omitting to mention the congenital defects the child was born with), being used to say "See? It doesn't just affect old people!"




I'd suggest that your assumption that a three year old kid who died from covid had co morbidities is just as invalid as assuming they did not.


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## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I'd suggest that your assumption that a three year old kid who died from covid had co morbidities is just as invalid as assuming they did not.




Either way it's using a statistical anomaly to falsely represent the situation.


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## basilio (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> We keep hearing this vague statement being repeated in the media and parroted in social media, without and solid data to back it up. It's much like the reference to some 3 year old kid somewhere in the world who died (obviously omitting to mention the congenital defects the child was born with), being used to say "See? It doesn't just affect old people!"
> 
> We literally have over 10 million documented recoveries (and probably many times that number of recoveries who were too mild to be noticed, many of whom didn't even realise they were infected with anything at all). Permanent damage doesn't show up after you're already over it (this is a ridiculous notion so many people are assuming!). Permanent damage is damage which is already done, exists after the virus is out of the system, and won't ever go away. It doesn't first show up after the virus is out of the system then never go away. The worst 10 million cases so far don't show this, yet we still somehow have an insane 'it's too soon to be sure' narrative.
> 
> Many people are so quick to hype up hypothetical or even demonstrably fictional problems of the virus, yet discount and actual, tangible problems of the mitigation efforts, or discount any potential hazards of a vaccine. It never makes sense to use a cure or mitigation strategy unless you are sufficiently sure that you are doing significantly more good than harm. Generally people have a firm grasp of this basic concept, but on this issue it has flown straight out the window, put on a disguise then jumped on a train.




How about some *solid Medical  Evidence *on the ongoing problems many people are facing after infection with COVID 19 ? Worth checking out perhaps ?
*  Here’s what we know so far about the long-term symptoms of COVID-19  *
July 27, 2020 5.56am AEST
Peter Wark 
*Conjoint Professor, School of Medicine and Public Health, University of Newcastle*

https://theconversation.com/heres-w...out-the-long-term-symptoms-of-covid-19-142722


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## rederob (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> We keep hearing this vague statement being repeated in the media and parroted in social media, without and solid data to back it up.



It's a bit early to get peer reviewed science backing up what doctors are finding, but here's one small scale study.  It would be unusual for the Italian study to be unique given a wealth of anecdotal information suggesting a wide variety of symptoms.


Sdajii said:


> The worst 10 million cases so far don't show this, yet we still somehow have an insane 'it's too soon to be sure' narrative.



No evidence!


Sdajii said:


> It never makes sense to use a cure or mitigation strategy unless you are sufficiently sure that you are doing significantly more good than harm. Generally people have a firm grasp of this basic concept, but on this issue it has flown straight out the window, put on a disguise then jumped on a train.



Again, just a guess.  So far that's all you have done regarding vaccine candidates.


----------



## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

basilio said:


> How about some *solid Medical  Evidence *on the ongoing problems many people are facing after infection with COVID 19 ? Worth checking out perhaps ?
> *  Here’s what we know so far about the long-term symptoms of COVID-19  *
> July 27, 2020 5.56am AEST
> Peter Wark
> ...




Simply posting a link doesn't mean that link contains what you claim it to!

There isn't anything in the link which says anything like 'X percent of recovered patients have X, Y and Z permanent issues'. It's all very vague, it's clearly just scaremongering.


----------



## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Again, just a guess.  So far that's all you have done regarding vaccine candidates.




In terms of efficacy, there's a tonne of evidence to say it's extraordinarily unlikely that we'll ever have a vaccine which works for this virus.

In terms of safety, I haven't claimed to be doing anything more than speculate and I've said it will most likely be fairly safe, but it's extremely risky to rush through the usual safety protocols. This is just basic common sense and in line with what any reasonable scientist will say. I'm not making any outrageous claims or anything in saying that if you develop a vaccine in a fraction of the time any other vaccine in history has been made in, and you skip or rush through safety procedures, you're taking a risk.


----------



## wayneL (28 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> A comment from the NYT's above
> 
> "
> 
> ...



I think the ignored metric is the number of deaths that may have been caused by severe lockdown. I don't have that number and it seems to be pretty hard to get hold of with any accuracy.

I can't speak for everyone of course, and I expect my opinion to have much disagreement, but I would prefer to take my (calculated) risks and have liberty, rather than have some government, which I have no faith in, to take my liberty away with out any scientific basis.

I believe it is up to me to ascertain my risks. Here in Queensland those risks are virtually nil (not to say those wrists might not increase at some point in the future)

Also, my mum is 90 years old and has seriously dodgy lungs (interestingly, a result of pneumonia from an influenza infection 20 years ago).

She has an indeterminate amount of time left on this planet, but I'm sure we can all agree that it isn't long. She obviously doesn't want to die but also does not want to *not* live either.

Hence, she is quite prepared to take the risk of living her life, visiting her friends and family, and enjoy the fruits of life with what time she has.

As much as it would be distressing for her to catch the virus and die, I support her 100% in this. In no way do I support her being forcibly locked up in her home and lived as a virtual prisoner of the state.

A common sense approach obviously applies, but quality of life matters more than quantity as a prisoner, that is her opinion.

As for me and Mrs, we are around 60 and and no way want to catch the damned virus, but both of us agree in no way do we want to live in this dystopian world which has been created, largely because of fear rather than actual data.

FFS, I make my living underneath a half a tonne, or more, of fight or flight for the sake of somebody else's hobby. My risk on any given day is a multitude higher than any freaking virus. 

My choice.

My missus at 60 years old got face planted off a client's horse only 3 weeks ago. She is quite ok, a bit hurt but no serious injuries... But it could have been a lot worse. Should could quite easily have been killed.

I think if anything happened to her I think I would top myself, seriously, but do I stop her doing her work?

No freaking way. Her life, her choice, it's what makes her life worth living.

Live life, live free, or it ain't worth it, you're just existing.


----------



## basilio (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Simply posting a link doesn't mean that link contains what you claim it to!
> 
> There isn't anything in the link which says anything like 'X percent of recovered patients have X, Y and Z permanent issues'. It's all very vague, it's clearly just scaremongering.




xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Sdajii  I normally I refuse to engage with you because frankly you seem to have no capacity to see beyond your own fixated views.

That paper from the *Peter Wark Conjoint Professor, School of Medicine and Public Health, University of Newcastle. *brought together a wealth of international experience on the ongoing effects on COVID 19.

I don't believe you even read the article in full. If you did and can still make the comments you make then...WTF ?


----------



## basilio (28 July 2020)

Another relevant anecdote on how easily COVID 19 is transmitted.

*'The whole church has got it, just about': dozens with Covid-19 after Alabama Baptist revival*
More than 40 people were infected with the coronavirus after attending a multi-day revival event at a north Alabama Baptist church, according to the congregation’s pastor.

“The whole church has got it, just about,” Pastor Daryl Ross of Warrior Creek Missionary Baptist church in Marshall county told AI.com.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/27/coronavirus-alabama-covid-19-baptist-church-revival


----------



## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

basilio said:


> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
> 
> Sdajii  I normally I refuse to engage with you because frankly you seem to have no capacity to see beyond your own fixated views.
> 
> ...




I read it.

It lists potential effects other than the usually discussed one, usually without even an attempt at giving vague figures. The figures it does give mostly relate to the things we already hear all about.

If we were to write an article about the common cold using the exact same standards we could come up with something equally scary.

What I said, which you disputed, and used this link to refute, going to far as to use enlarged font size in bold to highlight what you were talking about, related to permanent affects. Your article does not address this in a meaningful way.


----------



## basilio (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> I read it.
> 
> It lists potential effects other than the usually discussed one, usually without even an attempt at giving vague figures. The figures it does give mostly relate to the things we already hear all about.
> 
> ...




Not correct at all.
It doesn't  simply list *potential* effects. It describes what has happened. It also refers to a range of studies that have noted the ongoing effects of COVID 19 on many people who have been infected.

By definition it is too early to say effects are permanent. We would need to wait for another 40-50 years wouldn't we to establish that beyond doubt ? 

But for the meantime we could recognise that this infection has already demonstrated an ongoing series of effects on many people.

Enough. I assume anyone else can read reports from medical experts and make  up their own minds.


----------



## IFocus (28 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> I think the ignored metric is the number of deaths that may have been caused by severe lockdown. I don't have that number and it seems to be pretty hard to get hold of with any accuracy.
> 
> I can't speak for everyone of course, and I expect my opinion to have much disagreement, but I would prefer to take my (calculated) risks and have liberty, rather than have some government, which I have no faith in, to take my liberty away with out any scientific basis.
> 
> ...




I have tried to find what the mortality rate is from lock downs suicide being the most obvious one and the best I found was this an estimation.

The numbers show a problem with suicide but a bigger one if the virus gets away in the community the argument presented is that funding resources need to be increased for mental health not a change of direction regarding the virus.

Make of it what you will

"The silent death toll of COVID-19 revealed: Huge 25 per cent jump in suicides each year"

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...r/news-story/b4154626a16c9cc25c3b79b7880041ef

As for lock downs i don't think they have to be that severe, it requires people to just follow the rules to reduce contact spreading behaviours which if you read about the Swedes that's what they have done including reducing the numbers at gathering etc they have never said they were for the herd immunity thing others have claimed that.

It was always about personal responsibility which we know hasn't worked in Australia.. 

The problem is you get a Victoria where rampant drop kicks break the rules and spread the virus note the Korea comment above people there have a community spirit and follow the rules.

As for taking risks to feel alive I am all for it much to my families dismay was surfing an offshore reef a few days ago very long paddle out took a couple of rag doll floggings in waves of consequence but in those moments I was very alive searching for the next breath


----------



## satanoperca (28 July 2020)

Lets try and use the KISS theory.

Is there a chance of creating a vaccine? Yes
Could the said vaccine be effective? Maybe
What is the likelihood on past performance of vaccine creations, it being available within 2 years? 0
Has there ever in the past been a situation to we can immunize 6 Billion people? no
So how effective is the vaccine? Well if we vaccinate all Australians and do not allow foreigners or international travels into the country, then it might work.
Is point 5 feasible? No 
However, let's say, that a vaccine is available within 2 years and lets say that the vaccine was 85% effective. Do we lock down the country for 2 years waiting for the miracle to happen? Depends on your beliefs.
And lets think a little outside the square, over the next 2 years, we find that this virus, while deadly, is not as bad as we have been led to believe. So we have a vaccine for this virus (given it has not mutated and given we can create enough vaccine, but WAIT : Convid-20 arrives, do we continue to lock down the country for another 2 years, waiting for another miracle vaccine to be created.
So I could keep creating what-if scenarios, or could we just look at the available data and make some changes to the current policies and accept the data.
People are going to die, well that is life
You might never be able to rid our communities from this virus, crap, reminds me of the war on drugs. That worked out well, drugs have not been eradicated from our communities, failed policy.
So do we move forward, accept the new reality or believe that someone we are greater than nature itself. Again, another crap moment might be hard for most to accept, but removing some humans of this earth might actually save this earth.
And before I hear everyones bleating issues about my comments, I have had to deal with 2 infectious diseases with a mortality rate of over 20%. So harden up peoples, life is hard.


----------



## wayneL (28 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> I have tried to find what the mortality rate is from lock downs suicide being the most obvious one and the best I found was this an estimation.
> 
> The numbers show a problem with suicide but a bigger one if the virus gets away in the community the argument presented is that funding resources need to be increased for mental health not a change of direction regarding the virus.
> 
> ...



Love it.

Have had many such experiences on offshore reefs prior to wrecking my shoulder (paddling just was too painful after that)... Especially what you termed "feeling alive".


----------



## wayneL (28 July 2020)

Re GIGI from Monday's Q&A

https://www.fresheconomicthinking.com/2020/07/what-is-gigi-actually-saying-about-covid.html?m=1

*Monday, July 27, 2020*
botched their attempts to quantify it.

The puzzle to me is that everyone seems to want to say Gigi is trading off lives for the economy. Her point is that a functioning economy delivers health and welfare outcomes, and hence the trade-off is about lives for lives.

For some reason, saying this is a new taboo.

Policy decisions that explicitly make this trade-off occur all the time. Should we fund more medical research? Should we install traffic lights? Should we make people wear seat belts? Should we ban alcohol and cigarettes? Should we legalise recreational drugs?

Policy analysts, particularly economists, spend careers looking at these welfare and livelihood trade-offs in all sorts of policy domains.

When she says "man up" she means that we need to face up to the fact that we cannot create a pre-COVID world. There are going to be losses of life quality and quantity, either from the virus or our response to it.

I want to go through some of the strange things I see when talking about our COVID policy response, and some of the things people say to avoid facing the reality of this trade-off. My personal view is that the reasonable thing to do is to make sure our policy response does not shorten lives and reduce their quality more than COVID would. I hope that this helps people to understand where Gigi is coming from.

*1. The exponential growth and tail risk story*
One of the big claims early on was that those talking down the risk didn’t understand exponential growth. Strangely, exponential growth doesn’t usually apply to virus propagation. The pattern is well-understood to be logistic growth, which is going to saturate the population at some point. The unknown was merely where that point would be. 

*2. Virus prevalence estimates*
How much of the population has been exposed to the virus? This is another area where the worst-case scenarios got all the airplay, and where more sensible estimates were ignored. The more prevalent the virus was, the lower the overall mortality. You can see the media incentive for publicising the high mortality estimates, even though it was known quite early on what the realistic estimates were.

*3. Infection and case fatality rates*
Initially, the highest estimates were promoted, but the reality is that the range of 0.25-0.65% for infection fatality is the current view. If two-thirds of the population is infected overall, that is a worst-case scenario of about 0.16-0.4% of the population dying from COVID, or a few months of normal deaths brought forward in time.

*4. Getting the orders of magnitude right*
I asked my Mum when she was panicking about the COVID outbreak how many people she thought had died. She said 5.

These days when informed about COVID deaths I ask how many people die each day in normal times. No one seems to know, or care.

Nearly 8,000 people die every day in the US. Fear does not care for statistics.

The 6,000 coronavirus deaths likely to come from the virus in Sweden are equal to around 24 days of normal expected deaths.

A good rule of thumb is that 8 in 1,000 people die every year (0.8%), or about 60 million globally.

For perspective, the seasonal flu in Australia kills 1,500 to 3,000 people, with about 18,000 hospitalisations.

In Queensland last year 285 people ended up in ICU due to flu. 

*5. Getting the cost of life right*
Everyone dies, so dying of one thing today simply stops you dying from something else later. Deaths are life-shortening. In the trade-off I described above, economic recessions and lower future output are also life-shortening. There is no point talking about “prevented deaths”, only shorter lives (that whole quality/quantity thing). If people die a year to two younger than otherwise from COVID, then that’s not too bad. If they die 30 years younger than otherwise, the loss is fifteen times worse per death.

*6. But what about transmission!*
Another argument is that coronavirus can have lasting effects on some people. Yes. And? Others say that you might feel bad transmitting the disease to others. Yes. And? These issues are true of all viruses. They were true of last year’s record 1,300 flu deaths. There are hundreds of people out there who transmitted the flu virus to someone last year and it killed them. Where was the outrage then?

*7. Or do recessions save lives?*
I’ve heard the argument that recessions decrease traffic and workplace fatalities, reducing crude death rates. I can’t make a judgement about whether this is true, but it makes perfect sense and could be. But it only raises another question—if recessions save lives as a general matter, why aren’t we trying to orchestrate recessions all the time? If it is logical to do it for coronavirus, then it is logical to do it for traffic fatalities, workplace deaths, or whatever other indirect mechanisms of death are at play during economic expansions. 

*8. The poorest countries suffer the most*
There are global costs to lives from large scale lockdowns. Global vaccination programs for preventable diseases are being delayed, costing lives right now. Construction of health facilities is being delayed, costing lives in the future. Their general development and progress are hampered. Worse still, with very young populations, most poor countries have relatively few people at risk of COVID. 

*9. The endgame. What endgame?*
After a month of “flatten the curve” rhetoric, which basically had the right intention, there was a silent shift towards “crush and eliminate”. How does this make sense in a globalised world where the virus is going to saturate the rest of the world population? What endgame does that entail?

Being a national bubble with no international travel for years until a vaccine adds to the human cost of our policy response. If (or when?) the bubble is breached we get outbreaks anyway. New Zealand is hailed as a success on this front. But until when? The first person who arrives with COVID will simply take NZ back to square one. 

*10. The counterfactual*
This is tricky to consider. Is there a “no panic” counterfactual where the media doesn’t whip up society into a frenzy? I think there is, and this means that the “people would voluntarily lockdown” argument doesn’t fly. Why would they voluntarily lockdown?

The 2017 flu season was nearly 4x worse than the 2016 flu season, with 1,255 deaths compared to 464 the prior year.

In relative terms, the 2017 flu season was huge. It also had the risk of being multiple times bigger given the state of knowledge in the early stages. Yet no one panicked and shut down society.

If people don’t notice a 4x jump in flu deaths, would they notice a 10x jump from coronavirus deaths and voluntarily lockdown? I would argue they wouldn’t.

The “don’t panic, don’t lock down, invest in health resources” counterfactual is a plausible one. 

*11. The un-science cancel culture*
The Twitter mob has decided it can decide what is science and what is not, while at the same time attributing all variation in the COVID outbreaks across different countries or states to the policy response, leaving no space for randomness or luck.

This is “un-science”.

There is also nothing the un-science mob loves more than cancel culture. If my Twitter searches are anything to go by, plenty of people now want Gigi to be fired from her job. Yes, for raising the point that we should try and save the most lives possible by accounting for the cost to lives from our response to COVID, she is being “cancelled”. 

*12. A final thought*
One thing I have learned to do to help maintain perspective is to turn a problem around and ask the reverse question. How many early deaths would we tolerate to avoid a large recession? Is your answer really zero? Even a global one?

How many early deaths do we tolerate by not spending more on the public health system? Where is the outcry


----------



## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Not correct at all.
> It doesn't  simply list *potential* effects. It describes what has happened. It also refers to a range of studies that have noted the ongoing effects of COVID 19 on many people who have been infected.
> 
> By definition it is too early to say effects are permanent. We would need to wait for another 40-50 years wouldn't we to establish that beyond doubt ?
> ...




This scaremongering only makes sense if you ignore numbers (which your article does).

We do already have a wide variety of respiratory infections, including many coronaviruses, which have been infecting people for as long as there have been people. Once the infection is gone, the damage to the respiratory system is just damage, it's not a virus. People get permanent lung damage etc from the flu and the common cold etc.

The proportion of people with serious damage after recovery is low. Heck, the number of people who get seriously ill at all after infection is fairly low! We already know that the number of people with serious damage is low, and even if you only want to use the smallest, most basic application of logic, you realise that since not all of that is permanent, the total proportion of people with permanent damage is not high.

Your article doesn't even touch on this with numbers! You literally go to the trouble of using bold, enlarged font to yell about your point, then simply use a link to an article which doesn't address it. You then get upset about me not seeing things your way!


----------



## satanoperca (28 July 2020)

My comments are in RED


wayneL said:


> *2. Virus prevalence estimates*
> How much of the population has been exposed to the virus? Everyone, well nearly everyone, I am sure some never like to be connected to the community via normal human to human activity that is not behind a keyboard
> This is another area where the worst-case scenarios got all the airplay, and where more sensible estimates were ignored. The more prevalent the virus was, the lower the overall mortality. You can see the media incentive for publicising the high mortality estimates, even though it was known quite early on what the realistic estimates were.
> 
> ...



We have already spent to much, but those that have become or are complacent in not finding the truth cannot complain.


----------



## rederob (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> In terms of efficacy, there's a tonne of evidence to say it's extraordinarily unlikely that we'll ever have a vaccine which works for this virus.



No.
You have nothing to base that on - again, you are guessing.


Sdajii said:


> In terms of safety, I haven't claimed to be doing anything more than speculate and I've said it will most likely be fairly safe, but it's extremely risky to rush through the usual safety protocols.



Another guess.  There are 3 phases to pass. Several candidates are already at the last stage.


Sdajii said:


> This is just basic common sense and in line with what any reasonable scientist will say.



Yet another guess - at what point do you stop?


Sdajii said:


> I'm not making any outrageous claims or anything in saying that if you develop a vaccine in a fraction of the time any other vaccine in history has been made in, and you skip or rush through safety procedures, you're taking a risk.



Yes, "*if*."  But no evidence it is happening.


----------



## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

rederob said:


> No.
> You have nothing to base that on - again, you are guessing.




Good grief, many virologists around the world are saying it, I've been through this so many times in multiple threads on this forum, but in a nutshell: Unless you're very old, they've been trying to make vaccines for corona viruses since before you were born. Not one has been successful, ever. The SARS outbreak was the best part of 20 years ago now. SARS is closely related and very similar to SARS-COV-2 (the virus which causes COVID-19). Making a vaccine for them is technically much the same. Great efforts have been made to produce a SARS vaccine for the best part of 20 years, they have come up with nothing. Respiratory pathogens are very difficult to make vaccines for because of the way the immune system responds to them and how antibodies are produced, stored, etc, and how the immune system's memory functions for them. Part of it is to do with the fact that the respiratory system is effectively an external part of the body (this much is relevant to all respiratory infections). We don't have any vaccines for respiratory pathogens which are highly effective (TB for example is generally not bothered with, the flu is about the best we have but even that isn't very effective, it has been researched and worked with for decades and we're limited by the human body's limitations which we're not going to be changing without genetic engineering of humans, etc etc) and coronaviruses are a totally unrelated pathogen to anything we have any vaccine for and they have their own problems which make vaccines impossible (some viruses just can't have vaccines made for them, HIV being a well known example).

I'm not just guessing. It's extraordinarily unlikely that a vaccine will be possible, the above just scratches the surface. 



> Another guess.  There are 3 phases to pass. Several candidates are already at the last stage.




It's easy enough to get through stage 1, exploratory phase, obviously. It's easy enough to get a product which can be injected into a monkey and not to any obvious damage. It's easy enough to get a monkey to produce antigens to antibodies you inject into it. Hey, we could literally have done that for HIV in our spare time in the genetics labs I used to work in if we'd had monkeys to play with. That doesn't mean you have a functional vaccine and it doesn't even mean you know it's anywhere safe enough to put into people.



> Yes, "*if*."  But no evidence it is happening.




I say they're rushing this through and you respond with 'there's no evidence of that'. Great.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Good grief, many virologists around the world are saying it, I've been through this so many times in multiple threads on this forum, but in a nutshell: Unless you're very old, they've been trying to make vaccines for corona viruses since before you were born. Not one has been successful, ever. The SARS outbreak was the best part of 20 years ago now. SARS is closely related and very similar to SARS-COV-2 (the virus which causes COVID-19). Making a vaccine for them is technically much the same. Great efforts have been made to produce a SARS vaccine for the best part of 20 years, they have come up with nothing. Respiratory pathogens are very difficult to make vaccines for because of the way the immune system responds to them and how antibodies are produced, stored, etc, and how the immune system's memory functions for them. Part of it is to do with the fact that the respiratory system is effectively an external part of the body (this much is relevant to all respiratory infections). We don't have any vaccines for respiratory pathogens which are highly effective (TB for example is generally not bothered with, the flu is about the best we have but even that isn't very effective, it has been researched and worked with for decades and we're limited by the human body's limitations which we're not going to be changing without genetic engineering of humans, etc etc) and coronaviruses are a totally unrelated pathogen to anything we have any vaccine for and they have their own problems which make vaccines impossible (some viruses just can't have vaccines made for them, HIV being a well known example).
> 
> I'm not just guessing. It's extraordinarily unlikely that a vaccine will be possible, the above just scratches the surface.
> 
> ...




So I assume you think that any purported vaccine will be a decoy to make people think they are protected so they will be happy about going back to work and start making money for the bosses, otherwise why would the drug companies bother ?

So yeah, people may still come down with a sore throat and cough, but you've been vaccinated so it's just a common cold right, no need to worry, take a couple of days off or just soldier on as usual.

So how are they then going to explain all the older people or those with co-morbidities who keep flooding the hospital emergency departments and insist on dying ?


----------



## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So I assume you think that any purported vaccine will be a decoy to make people think they are protected so they will be happy about going back to work and start making money for the bosses, otherwise why would the drug companies bother ?




Not really, no. I've already discussed this in detail on this forum in threads you've taken part in.



> So how are they then going to explain all the older people or those with co-morbidities who keep flooding the hospital emergency departments and insist on dying ?




Read through recent posts, you're asking questions to the answers already given.


----------



## rederob (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Good grief, many virologists around the world are saying it...



Guessing again - zero evidence a vaccine cannot be developed.  You seem to be unaware that there are several different pathways to this vaccine.  Furthermore, several vaccine candidates have built on former vaccine experience so this is not a start from scratch in every case.


Sdajii said:


> I'm not just guessing. It's extraordinarily unlikely that a vaccine will be possible, the above just scratches the surface.



If it's not a guess, where is your evidence?


Sdajii said:


> I say they're rushing this through and you respond with 'there's no evidence of that'. Great.



The phases are sequential and money is no object in most cases, nor willing volunteers.  And as I said, some candidates are building from previous experience.  Where is there evidence that safety protocols are being skipped?

*Just stop guessing.*


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## ghotib (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Permanent damage doesn't show up after you're already over it (this is a ridiculous notion so many people are assuming!). Permanent damage is damage which is already done, exists after the virus is out of the system, and won't ever go away. It doesn't first show up after the virus is out of the system then never go away. The worst 10 million cases so far don't show this, yet we still somehow have an insane 'it's too soon to be sure' narrative.



Post-polio syndrome?  Chicken pox/shingles? I have  no idea if these are classed as permanent damage, but it seems like a reasonable description. In both cases the virus can lurk within the body for decades before the long term effects show up; maybe Covid can do the same.  

At the risk of further exposing my ignorance further, I don't understand the assumption that any vaccine will be fake. Not saying it couldn't be, but from my utterly non-specialist reading:

(1) There is unprecedented sharing of information and techniques among the over a hundred organisations working on a vaccine. It seems reasonable to think that this is reducing the amount of duplicated effort;

(2) New techniques have come available that reduce the elapsed time required for clinical trials. I'm sorry I haven't been able to pin down where I read about this because it strikes me as too good to be true - maybe someone here can find documentation for what I'm pretty sure I remember.


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## rederob (28 July 2020)

ghotib said:


> Post-polio syndrome?  Chicken pox/shingles? I have  no idea if these are classed as permanent damage, but it seems like a reasonable description. In both cases the virus can lurk within the body for decades before the long term effects show up; maybe Covid can do the same.
> 
> At the risk of further exposing my ignorance further, I don't understand the assumption that any vaccine will be fake. Not saying it couldn't be, but from my utterly non-specialist reading:
> 
> ...



Here's the current state of play with vaccines, and this links to a plain English explanation of who is doing what..
Note the variety of vaccine platforms, matched with different type of candidate vaccines.


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## Smurf1976 (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> The proportion of people with serious damage after recovery is low. Heck, the number of people who get seriously ill at all after infection is fairly low!




What are the actual figures for those with ongoing damage?

What damage and how many?


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 July 2020)

satanoperca said:


> So do we move forward, accept the new reality or believe that someone we are greater than nature itself.




There's going to be a huge reluctance to do that if it involves permanent change in a manner which renders some activities and the associated capital tied up in them obsolete.



satanoperca said:


> Has there ever in the past been a situation to we can immunize 6 Billion people? no




Same could be said for every single thing ever done.

Just 15 years ago we'd never had a situation where pretty much everyone, or even a minority of the population for that matter, carried a computer in their pocket. And yet we managed to design and manufacture a huge number of smartphones and build out the 4G network within a relatively short time.

Or for a more mundane example, in the very recent past the day's news was all typed up and formatted to suit a physical publication of which millions were printed and distributed to pretty much everyone not once, but literally every single day. Distributed by means of being sold in shops, commonly as the only item purchased and the only reason the customer went into the shop, or even simply thrown out the window of a moving car onto the lawn. To some extent that industry still exists today albeit declining.

If a vaccine were developed then the notion that it couldn't be produced and administered to everyone seems rather strange. With literally $ billions at stake, it would be odd if nobody was able to get the production, logistics and administering of it sorted out.


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## Smurf1976 (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Permanent damage doesn't show up after you're already over it (this is a ridiculous notion so many people are assuming!). Permanent damage is damage which is already done, exists after the virus is out of the system, and won't ever go away. It doesn't first show up after the virus is out of the system then never go away.




Plenty of things where that isn't the case.

Health impacts from asbestos exposure for example tend to show up several _decades_ after the exposure itself.

Smoking, poor diet, high levels of alcohol consumption, lack of exercise etc likewise tend to have no real effect for 20+ years but ultimately the majority end up with some level of impact on their life and many of them end up dead.

Radiation's another one. Unless you get enough to cause immediate radiation sickness then for anyone else it's something that kills you many years after the exposure and we can never be certain exactly who died from it and who was going to get cancer anyway. What we do know is that it leads to an excess of cancer cases.

HIV is another one and perhaps closer to the point. Takes quite some years after infection for any real symptoms to show up at least in some victims. Using perhaps the most famous example, Freddie Mercury, well there seems to be a rough consensus that he was most likely infected sometime in the late 1970's although obviously that isn't known with certainty. He was still very much alive in 1985 for the Live Aid concert, was diagnosed in 1987 and passed away in 1991. That's quite some lag time for the effects and he almost certainly isn't the longest, just someone very well known.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Tasmania is literally an island with a small population with low population density.
> 
> Perth (or the Perth region) is effectively an island.
> 
> Not only to Melbourne and Sydney both have populations each of which are multiples of Perth's, they both are surrounded by many other cities, interspersed by countless small towns. Perth on the other hand is by far Australia's most remote capital.




Population of Tasmania = 515,000 and very decentralised (only ~40% liver within commuting distance of Hobart).

Population of Perth = 2,042,0000. Population of the rest of WA is 547,000.

Population of Melbourne = 4,936,000. Population of the rest of Victoria is 1,423,000.

Those city figures are for the "greater" city so that's anywhere that anyone's going to commute from, it's not simply the technical definition of the city proper.

Tasmania is clearly very different as is regional WA but Perth and Melbourne aren't drastically different. A city of just over 2 million with people coming and going from an assortment of towns in the south-west of WA versus a city of just under 5 million with people coming and going from regional Victoria.

One's larger than the other but only a bit over double, it's not several orders of magnitude or anything like that. It's akin to comparing a 737 with a 747. They're both large aircraft, we're not comparing the 747 to a single engine Cessna or a helicopter.

There may well be reasons why it can't be done but conceptually, well if something has been done apparently quite easily in a city of 2 million then it seems somewhat pessimistic to assume it can't be done at all in a city of 5 million. It's a biggert task but we're talking about 2.5 times the size not 250 times the size. etc.

If it can't in fact be done well then that does raise one plausible long term outcome of this. Cities exceeding a certain size may well be simply too large and too much of a risk for this or indeed any country to have. If they're prone to uncontrollable pandemics then that's not an unreasonable conclusion, especially in a world where due to technology there's less need to have huge numbers of people in the one place anyway.

If so, well that's one very major change economically.


----------



## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Plenty of things where that isn't the case.
> 
> Health impacts from asbestos exposure for example tend to show up several _decades_ after the exposure itself.
> 
> Smoking, poor diet, high levels of alcohol consumption, lack of exercise etc likewise tend to have no real effect for 20+ years but ultimately the majority end up with some level of impact on their life and many of them end up dead.




Broadly speaking, asbestos causes two types of damage. One only shows up after a long period of *continued exposure*, the other is cancer.

Smoking is very similar in this way. If you continuously smoke you will continue to do damage to your lungs, but once you stop that damage will not continue to get worse, it will only get better. Unless you get cancer (as with asbestos). 

Same with alcohol. It only takes many years to cause liver damage etc because you are continually putting alcohol into your body during those years.



> Radiation's another one. Unless you get enough to cause immediate radiation sickness then for anyone else it's something that kills you many years after the exposure and we can never be certain exactly who died from it and who was going to get cancer anyway. What we do know is that it leads to an excess of cancer cases.




Again, radiation sickness is cumulative except for the cancer risk.



> HIV is another one and perhaps closer to the point. Takes quite some years after infection for any real symptoms to show up at least in some victims. Using perhaps the most famous example, Freddie Mercury, well there seems to be a rough consensus that he was most likely infected sometime in the late 1970's although obviously that isn't known with certainty. He was still very much alive in 1985 for the Live Aid concert, was diagnosed in 1987 and passed away in 1991. That's quite some lag time for the effects and he almost certainly isn't the longest, just someone very well known.




That's because HIV is permanently in the body! If this virus was also incurable and stayed with infected people permanently I would very much be saying that we have a very serious chance of developing continually increasing problems, or some sudden onset problems in the future! If it's literally a short term respiratory infection it's literally very safe to say that once it is eliminated from the body it stops doing further damage! Other than trivial exceptions, if you stop drinking or smoking or breathing in asbestos you get no further damage from these things other than potential cancer risk, particularly from smoking and asbestos. If HIV infections only lasted a month or so, HIV would be a trivial virus none of us would care about. It would possibly not even be known to medical science and most normal people would definitely not know about it. If you breathe in asbestos once it's almost certainly going to do you no harm, just like smoking for a month won't be an issue, or a one month alcohol issue wouldn't be a serious health concern for more than a trivial number of people. All of these things are very rarely serious problems unless they are ongoing for many years.


----------



## Sdajii (28 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Population of Tasmania = 515,000 and very decentralised (only ~40% liver within commuting distance of Hobart).
> 
> Population of Perth = 2,042,0000. Population of the rest of WA is 547,000.
> 
> ...




So yes, these are all very convincing arguments for why Melbourne/Victoria is tremendously more challenging than the other places.



> Tasmania is clearly very different as is regional WA but Perth and Melbourne aren't drastically different.




Not drastically different??? Melbourne is literally more than double the size! I'm about 90kg. If you put me in a fight with a 45 year old middle school student, are we significantly different?

The challenges associated with viruses become geometrically (ie, literally exponentially) more difficult with increased size, and you're talking about well over double the size! Plus, Melbourne has many towns and cities all around it, while Perth doesn't have anything like the same situation. Additionally, Perth has a population density of 295 people/km², while melbourne has over 500! Again, the difference in difficulty varies geometrically with population density and Melbourne's density is dramatically higher. Compound these two factors together, plus add in the surrounding town structure, plus Melbourne's demographic differences, and you're looking at something orders of magnitude more difficult in Melbourne.



> One's larger than the other but only a bit over double, it's not several orders of magnitude or anything like that.




That one single factor is a lot more than double (50% more!) and the challenges don't increase arithmetically, they increase geometrically, meaning that yes, the challenge is orders of magnitude greater, especially when you factor in all the other issues of Melbourne.



> It's akin to comparing a 737 with a 747. They're both large aircraft, we're not comparing the 747 to a single engine Cessna or a helicopter.




The comparison literally is much more like a single engine Cessna and a 737 than a 737 to a 747.



> There may well be reasons why it can't be done but conceptually, well if something has been done apparently quite easily in a city of 2 million then it seems somewhat pessimistic to assume it can't be done at all in a city of 5 million.




If a realistic analysis gives a negative answer, it's just realistic, not pessimistic.



> If it can't in fact be done well then that does raise one plausible long term outcome of this. Cities exceeding a certain size may well be simply too large and too much of a risk for this or indeed any country to have. If they're prone to uncontrollable pandemics then that's not an unreasonable conclusion, especially in a world where due to technology there's less need to have huge numbers of people in the one place anyway.




Population size is only one factor. Density, hygiene standards, climate, religion and culture, ethnicity, building materials, government type, geography, local wildlife and many others play important roles, and which pathogen spreads more easily varies differently with each variable. For some examples, this one seems to like cold climates, but others prefer warm climates. This one doesn't seem to use animals as vectors, but many other pathogens do. The amount of physical contact required to spread a disease changes population size and density importance (eg if it's something like HIV it doesn't make anywhere near as much difference, but if it's something like this virus it's one of the most important things, and population size and density are among the absolute most important).

I doubt we're going to see a limit on city sizes for this reason, but it's conceivable at some point in the distant future.


----------



## IFocus (28 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Broadly speaking, asbestos causes two types of damage. One only shows up after a long period of *continued exposure*, the other is cancer.




To help you out....again.

You have asbestos and mesothelioma.

Asbestos kills you sooner due to scaring of the lungs (for want of a better description)  silicosis is similar, an example is the underground miners in Bolivia Potosí Silver Mines average age around 36 years old although I did meet one miner they called superman 54 years old but only one.

Mesothelioma is one fibre penetrating the lunge wall used to be mean time of 28 years to death no survivors.


----------



## IFocus (28 July 2020)

Vaccine, can we get the current efforts in perspective.

Not aware in the history of humans of such an effort, money, resources, urgency, number of experts, expectations by as many, number of countries, blah blah as being directed into finding a vaccine for COV19.

Never, hence I do expect great things just not sure of the time frame or effectiveness but it will come.

I think its impossible to judge from pass efforts as the current efforts are very much unprecedented.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> You have asbestos and mesothelioma.
> 
> Asbestos kills you sooner due to scaring of the lungs (for want of a better description) silicosis is similar, an example is the underground miners in Bolivia Potosí Silver Mines average age around 36 years old although I did meet one miner they called superman 54 years old but only one.




I'm no doctor but I've done a few sets of training on it from different perspectives.

Employer provided, union run and TAFE as three completely separate things. I don't have a need for it so didn't get one but I've done the training for a removalists' licence ("A" Class) too.

They all say much the same:

*Every single person has had some exposure due to background environmental contamination.

*The more exposure you have, and the longer it's inside you (that is, how long you live after it goes in since it never comes back out that's the problem) then the greater the chance it ends badly. Once it's in, it's there and doing damage.

*Genetics appears to play a major factor although there's uncertainty as to the detail. It is established fact however that two people with comparable levels of exposure may have very different outcomes.

The practical aspect of that is that there's no certainty as to the consequences of any individual being exposed. What can be said though is that the greater the level of exposure someone receives, and the younger they are when it occurs, the greater the chance that they live long enough to end up with problems because of it.

It's a statistical probability thing basically. No certainties but x level of exposure results in a certain set of statistical probabilities as to what happens.

Whilst it's not a virus, it's certainly an example of a health issue where being exposed in 2020 could cripple you in 2050 and kill you in 2055. In the meantime, well you'll feel just fine.


----------



## wayneL (29 July 2020)

This is part of a longer video where this group of doctors is talking. YouTube and Facebook have taken the videos down and and now only resides on Bitchute, easy to find under health and medicine


----------



## wayneL (29 July 2020)




----------



## Sdajii (29 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> *The more exposure you have, and the longer it's inside you (that is, how long you live after it goes in since it never comes back out that's the problem) then the greater the chance it ends badly. Once it's in, it's there and doing damage.




See, here's the big difference. Your words here: "Once it's in, it's there and doing damage" - contrast with any virus. Once it's eliminated, it's gone and no longer doing damage.

Contrast with your HIV/AIDS example: Once it's in, you never, ever get rid of it. It's there for life, continuing to do damage. Coronaviruses aren't chronic diseases which last a lifetime, they leave your system within weeks, not the rest of your life (unless the rest of your life is only a couple of weeks or so).


----------



## sptrawler (29 July 2020)

If Clive Palmer wins the high court case against the W.A hard border closure, I wonder how Queensland, S.A and Tasmania will keep theirs intact?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...y-to-win-wa-border-challenge-pm-says/12501872


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## basilio (29 July 2020)

After two days of following the medical script on dealing with COVID 19 (_it's real, it's serious, wear a mask_)  Trump decided to let his instincts take over.
Some seriously crazy stuff in this story.

*Donald Trump is talking about hydroxychloroquine again because of a viral video filled with coronavirus misinformation*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...ychloroquine-again-after-viral-video/12501634


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## rederob (29 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> This is part of a longer video where this group of doctors is talking. YouTube and Facebook have taken the videos down and and now only resides on Bitchute, easy to find under health and medicine



Are they doctors?
What hospital do they represent?
What evidence was offered?
There remains zero evidence the claims were true.
There is a lot of evidence that the promoters did well, as it is part of the growing trend of false narrative profiteering.


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## wayneL (29 July 2020)

DYOR @rederob

I have.


----------



## rederob (29 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> DYOR @rederob
> 
> I have.



You posted information which has no credibility.
Is there a reason you continue to do this?


----------



## basilio (29 July 2020)

rederob said:


> You posted information which has no credibility.
> Is there a reason you continue to do this?



 Because that is what Wayne wishes to believe and regardless of who says it and whatever  insanity they demonstrate he will support it.


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## basilio (29 July 2020)

The research behind hydroxychloroquine as a cure for COVID 19.

*What Scientific Tests Reveal about Dr. Immanuel's Hydroxychloroquine Claims*
https://www.newsweek.com/what-scien...r-immanuels-hydroxychloroquine-claims-1521147


----------



## qldfrog (29 July 2020)

Finally seeing what was  to happen, and was called a first wave, delayed  by 3 months or so,,,or was it  just summer at play; now we will get the aged care and sick deaths.
Do not fool yourself, we will get many deaths;
ultimately: younger population than Europe, warmer climate for around 50% of people, that should give you 5 to 6k deaths unitially  before the problem recedes as the virus reaches max extension and summers comes back.overall 12k deaths  by 2022 so around twice the last nasty fly epidemy
Thanks god, that eliminate the stupid "let's eradicate" idea.Can not wait to live again
I just hope but far from convinced that the hospitals here are aware of the learnings in Europe and so avoid the unnecessary deaths.
I wear mask in public transport and railway station, otherwise, just basic care


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> Coronaviruses aren't chronic diseases which last a lifetime, they leave your system within weeks, not the rest of your life



If it can be shown beyond all doubt that this is indeed the case, so it's not like HIV or chickenpox, then that would indeed allay some concerns.

Thus far though, from a layperson's perspective there is thus far a lack of any real answers. What effects? On how many people? Etc. There's a lack of any real data on that it seems.


----------



## IFocus (29 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> DYOR @rederob
> 
> I have.





*“She’s also made videos saying that doctors make medicine using DNA from aliens and that they’re trying to create a vaccine to make you immune from becoming religious.”*


----------



## Sdajii (29 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> If it can be shown beyond all doubt that this is indeed the case, so it's not like HIV or chickenpox, then that would indeed allay some concerns.




There's no medical doubt about this. Allow your concerns on this particular facet of the matter to be allayed.



> Thus far though, from a layperson's perspective there is thus far a lack of any real answers. What effects? On how many people? Etc. There's a lack of any real data on that it seems.




There's a lot of real data which isn't being put into mainstream media or any high profile outlets. It's difficult to find because you have to sort through all the tinfoil hat 5G tower, wetmarket, raw bat soup, microchip in the vaccine, nonsense insanity, and you need some idea of how to sort through it and recognise what is obvious garbage, what's genuine, and what you can't be certain of. If it's literal microchip in the vaccine injection level stuff, anyone with any sense can see straight through it, but with my training in life sciences I can see a lot of stuff in the mainstream media is blatant lies, which is still mainstream enough to be in the 6 o'clock televised propaganda. And then there's still a lot I can't be sure about, so I have to leave a question mark over it. There is without a doubt a tonne of absolutely hard evidence (and I'm not talking tinfoil hat nonsense or anything which is uncertain) showing that the mainstream narrative which the government policies are based on is very wrong, which raises all sorts of concerns and questions. You're right, for most laypeople it's very confusing and extremely difficult to get any answers. There are plenty of answers I wish I had, but it's frustrating (and scary) to know enough to see that the mainstream narratives are so incredibly incorrect, and most people still trustingly believe them. And of course there's still a lot of data which no one yet has. But, there's also definitely a lot of data which undoubtedly has been collected, but is nowhere to be found in the public realm, which is another very concerning thing.


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> There is without a doubt a tonne of absolutely hard evidence (and I'm not talking tinfoil hat nonsense or anything which is uncertain) showing that the mainstream narrative which the government policies are based on is very wrong, which raises all sorts of concerns and questions.



So what is this "hard evidence" and where are some/any links?


Sdajii said:


> There are plenty of answers I wish I had, but it's frustrating (and scary) to know enough to see that the mainstream narratives are so incredibly incorrect, and most people still trustingly believe them.



Have no idea what you mean.  Are death and positive COV19 cases so flawed that every country is running a conspiracy?  Are nation's health officers lying about the science?


Sdajii said:


> But, there's also definitely a lot of data which undoubtedly has been collected, but is nowhere to be found in the public realm, which is another very concerning thing.



Really?
Or do you mean there is a lot of data which continues to be analysed before meaningful conclusions can be drawn.
Type "*COVID-19*" into google scholar and you get over 50000 mostly science papers available.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (30 July 2020)

Back on to economic implications, kids


----------



## over9k (30 July 2020)

Good luck with that, they turned this thread into a dumpster fire weeks ago. I really don't know why the mods haven't swung the banhammer.


----------



## Joe Blow (30 July 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Back on to economic implications, kids



I'm away from the PC this morning but I'll sort this thread out when I get home.

Back on economic implications please folks.


----------



## over9k (30 July 2020)

How many times have you said that though? Can't you just start wielding the banhammer? They're clearly not getting the message.


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Good luck with that, they turned this thread into a dumpster fire weeks ago. I really don't know why the mods haven't swung the banhammer.



Maybe because "*government policies*" intertwine health and economic considerations right now.  Lockdowns and border closures are starting to bite into interstate tourism where some semblance of recovery was underway.  North Queensland tourism industry operators this morning reported a $100M hit to revenues as a result of NSW and Victorian COV19 cases necessitating restrictions. I suspect Tasmania this coming spring/summer will be similarly affected if the lid cannot be lifted.
Australia's hospitality industry is reporting the greatest job losses.  We know that early impacts were greatest on the young, but as as a slow recovery unfolds, white collar sector - typically also older age - employment is declining.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Maybe because "*government policies*" intertwine health and economic considerations right now.




Agree there. Politics is an inescapable part of the economy.


----------



## Joe Blow (30 July 2020)

over9k said:


> How many times have you said that though? Can't you just start wielding the banhammer? They're clearly not getting the message.



Taking a thread off topic isn't a bannable offence. It usually happens unintentionally as discussions drift naturally. 

When I get home this afternoon I'll clean this thread up and move the off topic posts to an appropriate thread.


----------



## Sdajii (30 July 2020)

rederob said:


> So what is this "hard evidence" and where are some/any links?




It's literally a corona virus. We know how these work. If it wasn't being eliminated, it would still be present and thus, it would still be detectable. 



> Have no idea what you mean.  Are death and positive COV19 cases so flawed that every country is running a conspiracy?




No, of course not, but we do know for example that the head of the WHO (who literally has less qualifications to be the head of the WHO than I do!) is a Chinese puppet, one of those elephants in the room no one is talking about. We know a low of misinformation is being put out, and most countries are following it. Politics is leading the science rather than the other way around. It's not true that every country is leading a conspiracy, but it clearly is true that a conspiracy is leading most countries. China is clearly going to extraordinary lengths to control the narrative of the science and the politics, this is absolutely clear to anyone paying any attention, as is the fact that it's working. If nothing else you can surely look in the rear view mirror (something few people seem to be doing!) and see that this was the case earlier this year. If it was clearly successful earlier in the year it should be a stretch to at least accept it may still be going. This is very relevant to the politics and economics of the situation.



> Are nation's health officers lying about the science?




There have been some clear cases of this, but for the most part money and politics are leading the science and bending the truth rather than outright breaking it. Are we really so naive that in this political climate we believe there is no political bias seeping through? When extreme political and economic biases exist, we have to accept they will inevitably play a significant role. It's just naive to think otherwise.



> Or do you mean there is a lot of data which continues to be analysed before meaningful conclusions can be drawn.
> Type "*COVID-19*" into google scholar and you get over 50000 mostly science papers available.




This topic is going to end up too lengthy to be possible to discuss in a forum thread, but basically, a huge amount of data doesn't mean it's all being put out there, and putting forward a huge amount of information doesn't mean every relevant thing is there. Google any scientific topic you like and the amount of data there doesn't mean that every last shred of every piece of information is within it. Not all research gets published, not all information is allowed to be published. For example, what can be published about human genetics is heavily regulated and a lot of information is not allowed to be published on the topic, largely because of the political/racism issues it would inevitably create (this isn't a conspiracy theory tinfoil hat example, it is openly-known that you can't just openly publish all information about human genetics, although the reasons are less openly discussed, for the same reason the information isn't discussed).


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> It's literally a corona virus. We know how these work. If it wasn't being eliminated, it would still be present and thus, it would still be detectable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wrong thread.
Move post to Outbreak thread and I will respond.


----------



## Sdajii (30 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Wrong thread.
> Move post to Outbreak thread and I will respond.




It's literally responding to questions you asked in this thread!


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> It's literally responding to questions you asked in this thread!



Yes, but please move it to the proper thread. I will delete my request as well.


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> It's literally a corona virus. We know how these work.



Completely false, as global economies are in meltdown because we still do not know enough about COV19. 


Sdajii said:


> We know a low of misinformation is being put out, and most countries are following it.



Another guess!


Sdajii said:


> China is clearly going to extraordinary lengths to control the narrative of the science and the politics, this is absolutely clear to anyone paying any attention, as is the fact that it's working. If nothing else you can surely look in the rear view mirror (something few people seem to be doing!) and see that this was the case earlier this year.



Seriously!  China has been significantly sidelined by western media.  China's economic recovery from COV19 continues to drive Australia's resources sectors.  Luckily some here follow those markets and are continuing to prosper with holdings in the likes of FMG and BHP.


Sdajii said:


> There have been some clear cases of this, but for the most part money and politics are leading the science and bending the truth rather than outright breaking it.



Unsubstantiated, so what are you relying on?  When are you actually going to post something credible to support your words?  Victorian and NSW Premiers are now well aware of the economic consequences of lockdowns and are not implementing these measures lightly.  Premiers of States with border closures in place don't want their economies ravaged any longer than necessary, but can see the economic carnage continuing in Victoria many weeks after a few security guards acted reprehensibly.


Sdajii said:


> For example, what can be published about human genetics is heavily regulated and a lot of information is not allowed to be published on the topic ....



Please show where this is so in the western world.


----------



## basilio (30 July 2020)

*An indictment on ignoring essential health measures around COVID 19 transmission.*

*US Representative Louie Gohmert*, who refused to wear a mask and today tested positive for Covid-19, apparently forced his entire staff to come into the Capitol every day to work as an example of “how to open up safely”.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...08f42f5d72993d#block-5f21bb9d8f08f42f5d72993d


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> *“She’s also made videos saying that doctors make medicine using DNA from aliens and that they’re trying to create a vaccine to make you immune from becoming religious.”*



I guess that's the relevant research that @wayneL hoped I would find, so my sincere apologies for missing it.
I thought the fact that the linked video was organised by the Tea Party and promoted widely by Breitbart could have been a clue as to credibility, but apparently that only works if you sit on the right side of the fence.


----------



## wayneL (30 July 2020)

rederob said:


> I guess that's the relevant research that @wayneL hoped I would find, so my sincere apologies for missing it.
> I thought the fact that the linked video was organised by the Tea Party and promoted widely by Breitbart could have been a clue as to credibility, but apparently that only works if you sit on the right side of the fence.



There are other players there, man, and doesn't negate her findings.

Don't try to play logician and fallicician(sic) at the same time. It doesn't work.

The question is whether the vid is legit. I haven't had a lot of time to research, but there's enough to warrant putting pathetic political biases aside and having a look.


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> There are other players there, man, and doesn't negate her findings.
> Don't try to play logician and fallicician(sic) at the same time. It doesn't work.



At issue was the fact that there was zero evidence supporting the claims in the video, and you continue to offer none.
Then you link a table about hydroxychloroquine but offer no explanation as to why it has merit.  Why do you do this?


----------



## basilio (30 July 2020)

basilio said:


> The research behind hydroxychloroquine as a cure for COVID 19.
> 
> *What Scientific Tests Reveal about Dr. Immanuel's Hydroxychloroquine Claims*
> https://www.newsweek.com/what-scien...r-immanuels-hydroxychloroquine-claims-1521147




This article offers  an exhaustive analysis of  the tests around the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine.
As far as believing the heart felt "certainty" of Dr Immanuel ?  Two points

1) Can she offer any evidence of the alleged 360 people she treated and cured ?
2) If some people want to take her on face value as an honest person do we also believe her promotions around astral sex, demons and a host of other views?
Check out Anderson Coopers summary of the story which incorporates Dr Immanuel in full flight.

See 1mi .10,  4m 30sec


----------



## macca (30 July 2020)

It really does underline what Sdajii is saying about rubbish being the headlines

Hydrox... does not work by itself, it is there to help the body absorb Zinc, it is the Zinc that slows the virus.

The Doctor who started using it has published details months ago, regularly repeating Hydrox will not work by itself.

Vitamin D has been proven to help in the UK, why isn't that headlines here in OZ

The Govts started off well but have been hijacked by big pharma it seems


----------



## spooly74 (30 July 2020)

rederob said:


> At issue was the fact that there was zero evidence supporting the claims in the video, and you continue to offer none.
> Then you link a table about hydroxychloroquine but offer no explanation as to why it has merit.  Why do you do this?



The link in the tweet is a thread unroll from the original poster.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1283840177497088001.html
Within that thread was several references to HCQ treatments/tests.
Some below.
https://c19study.com/
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04358068

Original tweet here.
Balanced overview imo.


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

spooly74 said:


> The link in the tweet is a thread unroll from the original poster.
> https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1283840177497088001.html
> Within that thread was several references to HCQ treatments/tests.
> Some below.
> ...



Did you read links from @basilio - some actual peer reviewed science exists and it does not support the claims made. 
Here's the latest findings from another peer reviewed study:
"*Among patients hospitalized with mild-to-moderate Covid-19, the use of hydroxychloroquine, alone or with azithromycin, did not improve clinical status at 15 days as compared with standard care.*"​As to the table posted above, where is there any explanation?


----------



## moXJO (30 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Did you read links from @basilio - some actual peer reviewed science exists and it does not support the claims made.
> Here's the latest findings from another peer reviewed study:
> "*Among patients hospitalized with mild-to-moderate Covid-19, the use of hydroxychloroquine, alone or with azithromycin, did not improve clinical status at 15 days as compared with standard care.*"​As to the table posted above, where is there any explanation?



Meh... studies don't mean a lot when it might prove trump right apparently.

Who can forget:


> Australian scientists have savaged the international mess over a study of the drug hydroxychloroquine as a disastrous setback in the search for COVID-19 treatments that will scare off patients and undermine trust in good science.




Australia has a very large shipment of hydroxychloroquine coming in to be used. So it kind of mutes whatever point people are trying to make. Obviously it has some benefit.


----------



## wayneL (30 July 2020)

rederob said:


> At issue was the fact that there was zero evidence supporting the claims in the video, and you continue to offer none.
> Then you link a table about hydroxychloroquine but offer no explanation as to why it has merit.  Why do you do this?



Discussion, bro. That is the reason for a forum.


----------



## wayneL (30 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Discussion, bro. That is the reason for a forum.




And some good discussion ensued.

Mission accomplished.

You might investigate the Briggs Meyer personality types and why people debate in certain ways.

It's illuminating and might help you understand people..... Maybe


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Discussion, bro. That is the reason for a forum.



You put up proven lies, so there's not much left open for discussion.
WRT to "excess deaths," the trend is not surprising, and this was recently supported by the Australian experience of minimal influenza deaths compared to "normal" years.  But here's what countries want to avoid:





A second wave could see similar trends repeated for the above countries.  And as has been shown by the Victorian experience, the rate of spread can be very hard to reign in.


----------



## wayneL (30 July 2020)

Then discussion has fulfilled its function.

I post stuff I think might be interesting to discuss. It it proves inaccurate, good, to we all learn something. If it proves accurate, good, we all learn something.

I am not arrogant enough to thing I have the answer in every case.... However from those who ARE so arrogant, I learn something too.

But usually not what they think they're trying to teach me


----------



## rederob (30 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Then discussion has fulfilled its function.
> 
> I post stuff I think might be interesting to discuss. It it proves inaccurate, good, to we all learn something.



It was proven false before you posted it, and this is often the case with what you put forward.
If your agenda is not to spread deliberate disinformation, then take some time to check sources.


----------



## wayneL (30 July 2020)

Let the facts speak for themselves, @rederob 

However, if it okay with you, I'll  refrain from seeing them through your filter.


----------



## wayneL (30 July 2020)




----------



## Smurf1976 (31 July 2020)

This seems at least somewhat concerning given the heart's a rather important bit in the body.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...njury-months-after-recovery-study/5536249002/

Anyone got a credible (medical not political) basis to dispute it?


----------



## qldfrog (31 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> This seems at least somewhat concerning given the heart's a rather important bit in the body.
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...njury-months-after-recovery-study/5536249002/
> 
> Anyone got a credible (medical not political) basis to dispute it?



A normal flu..not cold..can have the same debilitating effects.
https://www.healthline.com/health/heart-disease/viral#types-of-viruses
List of culprits is long ..maybe we should stop the nation, i heard someone caught herpes in qld.
No cure known at all, highly contagious.. let's block the borders


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> A normal flu..not cold..can have the same debilitating effects.
> https://www.healthline.com/health/heart-disease/viral#types-of-viruses
> List of culprits is long ..maybe we should stop the nation, i heard someone caught herpes in qld.
> No cure known at all, highly contagious.. let's block the borders




Yep, there are lots of hospitals around the country full of dying herpes patients aren't there ?


----------



## spooly74 (31 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Did you read links from @basilio - some actual peer reviewed science exists and it does not support the claims made.
> Here's the latest findings from another peer reviewed study:
> "*Among patients hospitalized with mild-to-moderate Covid-19, the use of hydroxychloroquine, alone or with azithromycin, did not improve clinical status at 15 days as compared with standard care.*"​As to the table posted above, where is there any explanation?



As I see it, the claims being made are that Hydroxychloroquine works if given early (1-5 days) or as a prophylaxis, only. Once the virus has progressed, it effectively useless.
That's the claim with respect to the country data chart and some of results from studies in this link https://c19study.com/
I have a cousin working on treatments for covid in Melbourne and used the analogy that on face value it's like using a fire extinguisher on a couch fire in a house which is effective, but useless once the whole room is ablaze.
The results from this study early July should give a definitive answer either way.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04358068


----------



## rederob (31 July 2020)

spooly74 said:


> As I see it, the claims being made are that Hydroxychloroquine works if given early (1-5 days) or as a prophylaxis, only. Once the virus has progressed, it effectively useless.
> That's the claim with respect to the country data chart and some of results from studies in this link https://c19study.com/
> I have a cousin working on treatments for covid in Melbourne and used the analogy that on face value it's like using a fire extinguisher on a couch fire in a house which is effective, but useless once the whole room is ablaze.
> The results from this study early July should give a definitive answer either way.
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04358068



Yes, as it stands we do not know if a large number of potential drug treatments will prove effective.  The point I made was that the viral tweet @wayneL posted claimed there was a cure, yet it is widely known by the medical community to be untrue to the extent that responsible social media platforms have deleted it.


----------



## spooly74 (31 July 2020)

IFocus said:


> *“She’s also made videos saying that doctors make medicine using DNA from aliens and that they’re trying to create a vaccine to make you immune from becoming religious.”*



Does seem like a screw loose somewhere.
Also, would've be good to know shes in pediatrics so her results are irrelevant with Covid & kids a non issue.
I did like her challenge to Fauci, though, to supply a blood test to see if he's using Hydroxychloroquine.
Wonder how many bashing its use because Trump made the suggestion months ago are actually taking it as a prophylaxis.


----------



## spooly74 (31 July 2020)

The Swedish model now needs to be taken seriously.
Testing still up but cases continues to fall.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/biweekly-growth-covid-cases?region=Europe

Sweden had approximately 1500 deaths from the general population. The rest in care homes, a total failure, and sadly, one which looks to be repeated here, which given the shots across the bow early in NSW, is an absolute disgrace.


----------



## qldfrog (31 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, there are lots of hospitals around the country full of dying herpes patients aren't there ?



Oh touche, maybe not herpes
But cancer or heart failure caused by virus many more than covid.
And with less chance of survival


----------



## qldfrog (31 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Oh touche, maybe not herpes
> But cancer or heart failure caused by virus many more than covid.
> And with less chance of survival



 Subject is : is covid different from other viruses, nastier in its after infection effects.
So far nothing unusual but i am sure my link was fake news
Try not to catch it, but if you do, keep hope.not the end


----------



## basilio (31 July 2020)

Background of the doctors in the viral video
*No Evidence That Doctor Group in Viral Video Got Near COVID 'Front Lines'*
*— Who are the physicians behind America's Frontline Doctors?*
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87797


----------



## qldfrog (31 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Background of the doctors in the viral video
> *No Evidence That Doctor Group in Viral Video Got Near COVID 'Front Lines'*
> *— Who are the physicians behind America's Frontline Doctors?*
> https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87797



Discredit, suppress, distord, overwhelm.. basic propaganda.
Maybe they were not qualified?: they disagree with my opinion


----------



## wayneL (31 July 2020)

rederob said:


> ...to the extent that responsible social media platforms have deleted it.




Are these the same responsible social media platforms that delete otherwise innocuous conservative and centre-right channels?

You have got to be kidding me, man.


----------



## basilio (31 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Discredit, suppress, distord, overwhelm.. basic propaganda.
> Maybe they were not qualified?: they disagree with my opinion




Or maybe the evidence from a medical website shows that these doctors in fact had little direct contact with COVID sufferers.

Which directly contradicts the premise of their "Front Line Doctors"tag.

Of course there was at least one doctor who says she has treated 350 COVID patients. But before we take that on face value:

1) Can she offer any evidence of the alleged 360 people she treated and cured ?
2) If some people want to take her on face value as an honest person do we also believe her promotions around astral sex, demons and a host of other views?
Check out Anderson Coopers summary of the story which incorporates Dr Immanuel in full flight.


----------



## basilio (31 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> Are these the same responsible social media platforms that delete otherwise innocuous conservative and centre-right channels?




Indeed. 
After Wayne highlighted where we could find the video I put on my scuba suit and went for a swim in Bitchute. 

I thought it was well worth while just to understand what sorts of ideas could be accepted under the banner of Free Speech. 

Very bracing.


----------



## wayneL (31 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Indeed.
> After Wayne highlighted where we could find the video I put on my scuba suit and went for a swim in Bitchute.
> 
> I thought it was well worth while just to understand what sorts of ideas could be accepted under the banner of Free Speech.
> ...



I am not talking about bitchute bas, I'm talking about ordinary conservative and centre-right channels that have been deleted from >>YouTube<<

Try to represent some sort of honesty in your posts, we are awake to Alinsky and his rules for radicals, komrade.


----------



## basilio (31 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> I am not talking about bitchute bas, I'm talking about ordinary conservative and centre-right channels that have been deleted from >>YouTube<<
> 
> Try to represent some sort of honesty in your posts, we are awake to Alinsky and his rules for radicals, komrade.




You mean like Alex Jones ?


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> I am not talking about bitchute bas, I'm talking about ordinary conservative and centre-right channels that have been deleted from >>YouTube<<




Such as ?


----------



## DB008 (31 July 2020)

Russia saying they will release a vaccine in a few weeks

https://www.9news.com.au/videos/cor...ite-safety-concerns/ckd8cf2xq003n0ili3aya3z6x


----------



## wayneL (31 July 2020)

basilio said:


> You mean like Alex Jones ?




@Joe Blow how do you expect me not to tell <censored><censored> like this, not to <censored><censored><censored><censored>?


----------



## moXJO (31 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Or maybe the evidence from a medical website shows that these doctors in fact had little direct contact with COVID sufferers.
> 
> Which directly contradicts the premise of their "Front Line Doctors"tag.
> 
> ...




CNN isn't legit


----------



## moXJO (31 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Such as ?



Every conservative news outlet covering Biden. Search results are being suppressed. All conservatives. And how about ASF. Pretty sure I got neutered from an opinion or google was going to flag the site. Its not imaginary. Right wingers are currently ditching twitter and moving to Parler


----------



## macca (31 July 2020)

One of the main natural remedy sites in the world, with a proven track record over many years, now only shows up when specifically included in the search detail.

Censoring is happening every second of every day

Joe, remove this post if a problem


----------



## basilio (31 July 2020)

wayneL said:


> I am not talking about bitchute bas, I'm talking about ordinary conservative and centre-right channels that have been deleted from >>YouTube<<
> .




Wayne I believe I have got this right..
You Tube has decided that a range of organizations and individuals  are promoting lies, extreme misinformation, racial abuse, hate stories. It has bumped them off You Tube and these organisations have attempted to find another space to present their views.

BitChute is one (or the only ?) site to allow these bodies to post under the banner of free speech.

So which organizations/people  which have been bumped off You Tube represent the conservative and centre-right channels ?

I suggested Infowars as a starter. Others would be ?


----------



## moXJO (31 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Wayne I believe I have got this right..
> You Tube has decided that a range of organizations and individuals  are promoting lies, extreme misinformation, racial abuse, hate stories. It has bumped them off You Tube and these organisations have attempted to find another space to present their views.
> 
> BitChute is one (or the only ?) site to allow these bodies to post under the banner of free speech.
> ...



There's various lists but you have to use bing or another search engine as Google censored that as well


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Subject is : is covid different from other viruses, nastier in its after infection effects.
> So far nothing unusual but i am sure my link was fake news



That sort of sums it up really.

How bad is it?

Well for a non-medical person like me, finding that out is basically a task of trying to work out what's true and what isn't true since there's an abundance of conflicting information around and that's the problem.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> That sort of sums it up really.
> 
> How bad is it?
> 
> Well for a non-medical person like me, finding that out is basically a task of trying to work out what's true and what isn't true since there's an abundance of conflicting information around and that's the problem.




There is conflicting information but it seems that there are relatively few medical authorities saying it's "harmless" to most people, and quite a few saying that that it could cause long term effects.

Which is why I agree with your suspicions a while ago when you said that "some" governments moved very quickly to try and shut the virus down. I think the medical authorities knew that it wasn't just another flu, but some politicians appear to have ignored their advice.


----------



## qldfrog (31 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> There is conflicting information but it seems that there are relatively few medical authorities saying it's "harmless" to most people, and quite a few saying that that it could cause long term effects.
> 
> Which is why I agree with your suspicions a while ago when you said that "some" governments moved very quickly to try and shut the virus down. I think the medical authorities knew that it wasn't just another flu, but some politicians appear to have ignored their advice.



A matter of where you put the middle needle
A virus which continate people with only 25% even experimenting fever..basically any symptom.
How fo you define that
Very contagious indeed..nasty..not in my opinion
But we are in a country where a pool in a 40 acre property has to be fenced in case a kid walk by...
So ..to each his own..


----------



## DB008 (1 August 2020)

*Chinese-backed hackers 'targeted COVID-19*
*vaccine firm Moderna'*​
*Moderna's vaccine candidate is one of the earliest and biggest bets
by the Trump administration to fight the pandemic.*​

Chinese government-linked hackers targeted biotech company Moderna Inc - a leading United States-based coronavirus vaccine research developer - earlier this year in a bid to steal valuable data, according to a US security official tracking Chinese hacking activity.

Last week, the US Justice Department made public an indictment of two Chinese nationals accused of spying on the US, including three unnamed US-based targets involved in medical research to fight the COVID-19 pandemic.

The indictment states the Chinese hackers "conducted reconnaissance" against the computer network of a Massachusetts biotech firm known to be working on a coronavirus vaccine in January.

Moderna, which is based in Massachusetts and announced its COVID-19 vaccine candidate in January, confirmed to Reuters news agency that the company had been in contact with the FBI and was made aware of the suspected "information reconnaissance activities" by the hacking group mentioned in last week's indictment.

Reconnaissance activities can include a wide range of actions, including probing public websites for vulnerabilities to scouting out important accounts after entering a network, cybersecurity experts say.

"Moderna remains highly vigilant to potential cybersecurity threats, maintaining an internal team, external support services and good working relationships with outside authorities to continuously assess threats and protect our valuable information," spokesman Ray Jordan said, declining to provide further details.

The US security official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, did not provide further details. The FBI and the US Department of Health and Human Services declined to disclose the identities of companies targeted by Chinese hackers.

Moderna's vaccine candidate is one of the earliest and biggest bets by the Trump administration to fight the pandemic. The federal government is supporting the development of the company's vaccine with nearly half a billion dollars and helping Moderna launch a clinical trial of up to 30,000 people beginning this month.

China is also racing to develop a vaccine, bringing together its state, military and private sectors to combat a disease that has killed more than 660,000 people worldwide.

A July 7 indictment released last week alleges that the two Chinese hackers, Li Xiaoyu and Dong Jiazhi, conducted a decade-long hacking spree that most recently included the targeting of COVID-19 medical research groups.

Prosecutors said Li and Dong acted as contractors for China's Ministry of State Security, a state intelligence agency. Messages left with several accounts registered under Li's digital alias, oro0lxy, were not returned. Contact details for Dong were not available.

The Chinese Embassy in Washington referred Reuters to recent Chinese Foreign Ministry comments that said: "China has long been a major victim of cyberthefts and attacks" and its officials "firmly oppose and fight" such activities. The Chinese government has consistently denied any role in hacking incidents across the globe. The embassy spokesperson did not address specific questions sent via email.

The two other unnamed medical research companies mentioned in the Justice Department indictment are described as biotech companies based in California and Maryland. Prosecutors said the hackers "searched for vulnerabilities" and "conducted reconnaissance" against them.

The court filing describes the California firm as working on antiviral drug research and suggested the Maryland company had publicly announced efforts to develop a vaccine in January. Two companies that could match those descriptions: Gilead Sciences Inc and Novavax Inc.

Gilead spokesperson Chris Ridley said the firm does not comment on cybersecurity matters. Novavax would not comment on specific cybersecurity activities but said: "Our cybersecurity team has been alerted to the alleged foreign threats identified in the news."

A security consultant familiar with multiple hacking investigations involving premier biotech firms over the last year said Chinese hacking groups believed to be broadly associated with China's Ministry of State security are one of the primary forces targeting COVID-19 research globally. This matches the description of the indicted hackers as MSS contractors.​
https://www.aljazeera.com/ajimpact/...-19-vaccine-firm-moderna-200730183431803.html

.​


----------



## basilio (2 August 2020)

Daniel Andrews Press Conference at 2.30.  Not looking good.







https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...st-lockdown-as-south-africa-cases-pass-500000


----------



## basilio (2 August 2020)

Supermarkets announcing limits on products again. Further restrictions on businesses expected.

_In the Australian state of Victoria, supermarket chain Woolworths has announced limits on 50 product categories in stores across the state following what says is “an increase in demand across Victorian stores in the last 24 hours”:_
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...st-lockdown-as-south-africa-cases-pass-500000


----------



## basilio (2 August 2020)

Melbourne  goes to Stage 4 restrictions.
Curfews after 8pm. Only 2 people to be together. Back to home schooling for all.







https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...st-lockdown-as-south-africa-cases-pass-500000


----------



## wayneL (2 August 2020)

And the proles are compliant, Komrade.

Success.


----------



## basilio (2 August 2020)

The status on  Hydroxychloroquine testing.  Why the medical profession is not supporting it's use at the moment - and when they could change their mind.


----------



## Knobby22 (2 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> And the proles are compliant, Komrade.
> 
> Success.



Why can't we be like the USA hey? It's worked so well.


----------



## basilio (2 August 2020)

More background on Hydroxychloroquine testing. 
https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s...n-t-block-the-coronavirus-in-human-lung-cells


----------



## rederob (2 August 2020)

Countries across the world are requiring wearing of masks *AFTER *the event for inexplicable reasons.
Here's fauci's simple advice, which he says "is not rocket science:"


----------



## wayneL (2 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Why can't we be like the USA hey? It's worked so well.



We could be like Sweden.


----------



## macca (2 August 2020)

basilio said:


> More background on Hydroxychloroquine testing.
> https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s...n-t-block-the-coronavirus-in-human-lung-cells




I find it quite puzzling actually just why so many people are testing this drug in isolation.

It all started when the Doctor in New York published a paper detailing how he used it to help the body absorb Zinc.

Never at any time did he say it would help against Covid, he has always said it was the Zinc that helped fight Covid.

This drug is a very old drug, if it could be used to fight Covid then a lot of Pharma companies are not going to make billions with their new drugs so it is important to them to prove it does not work.

I find it really weird that nobody is testing the actual treatment that the Doctor used, maybe they don't want to cure people using common old drugs, minerals and ABs, no money in that.


----------



## IFocus (2 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> We could be like Sweden.




How?


----------



## SirRumpole (2 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> We could be like Sweden.




https://theconversation.com/no-australia-should-not-follow-swedens-approach-to-coronavirus-143540


----------



## wayneL (2 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> https://theconversation.com/no-australia-should-not-follow-swedens-approach-to-coronavirus-143540



The Conversation can indulge in its dystopian circle jerkery all it likes, the fact is, Sweden got it right.

End of story.


----------



## grah33 (2 August 2020)

Anyone know what Victoria's plan is?  I'm not getting it.  Seems impossible to significantly reduce virus numbers, and keep it low


----------



## cynic (2 August 2020)

grah33 said:


> Anyone know what Victoria's plan is?  I'm not getting it.  Seems impossible to significantly reduce virus numbers, and keep it low



Based upon the decisions being enacted, I would surmise that social and economic devastation, coupled with the introduction of martial law for the purposes of installing a totalitarian regime, are the likely objectives. The persistence of the virus simply provides a convenient cover story.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> The Conversation can indulge in its dystopian circle jerkery all it likes, the fact is, Sweden got it right.



Thus far the death toll in Sweden, per capita, isn't exactly a shining example.

Unless the death toll substantially rises elsewhere, or some of those in Sweden are brought back to life, then that won't change.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 August 2020)

grah33 said:


> Anyone know what Victoria's plan is? I'm not getting it. Seems impossible to significantly reduce virus numbers, and keep it low



As I see it, they've got two choices basically:

1. Lock down hard and actually eradicate it.

2. "Let it rip" as effectively an isolated nation of sorts. Go down that track and odds are the other states will stop anyone entering from Victoria no matter who they are or what their reason for entering.


----------



## grah33 (2 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Based upon the decisions being enacted, I would surmise that social and economic devastation, coupled with the introduction of martial law for the purposes of installing a totalitarian regime, are the likely objectives. The persistence of the virus simply provides a convenient cover story.



Hey Cynic,   long time we chatted  here .  I feel like i need to follow more news and go "deep" like everyone else here .  Just I'm always doing hobbies ... 
Quite a view   u have expressed  though.  I'm anticipating more loss of freedom (it's kind of predictable), but wasn't really connecting it with a super plan.   Although how things are being handled doesn't really make sense to me, so maybe you're onto something.


----------



## grah33 (2 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As I see it, they've got two choices basically:
> 
> 1. Lock down hard and actually eradicate it.
> 
> 2. "Let it rip" as effectively an isolated nation of sorts. Go down that track and odds are the other states will stop anyone entering from Victoria no matter who they are or what their reason for entering.



can you explain point 1.  this I don't get. 'elimination' they call it on the news .  i would think you can't eradicate it if it's like a flu.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 August 2020)

grah33 said:


> can you explain point 1.  this I don't get. 'elimination' they call it on the news .  i would think you can't eradicate it if it's like a flu.



It is arguably unproven that they've achieved it but WA, NT, SA, Tas and NZ are all in the situation of seemingly having eliminated it within the local population. To the extent they've got any ongoing issues, it's with people who've arrived from somewhere else notably Vic. Hence they've all now become extremely tight in terms of letting anyone in.

Whilst those places all have lower populations and population density than Victoria does, Perth with it's population of 2 million, Auckland with 1.65 million and Adelaide with 1.3 million in their urban areas aren't exactly small country towns. They're all proper cities, they've all got reasonably large buildings, they've all got public transport and so on.

Perth, Adelaide, Auckland, NT, Tasmania, regional WA, SA and NZ. There's a fair diversity there of population density and climate. If they've managed to actually do it then I'm not at all convinced that it isn't possible to do it in Victoria.

If it turns out that they haven't done it, if new cases crop up in Perth or Hobart or wherever, well then that idea might be a dud but at the moment it seems at least possible that elimination may have been achieved in these places. If nobody's turning up with symptoms, if tests aren't finding any cases, then possibly it has actually died out.

From a governance perspective, I don't know what they've all done but in SA it has largely been left to the experts, politicians taking a few steps back. The Chief Public Health Officer and the Police Commissioner have both gained a celebrity-like status to some extent amidst it all, they've been routinely on the news and so on and both have been clear and to the point in layman's terms.

Tasmania went the other way and formed a loose Liberal-Labor-Greens coalition of sorts (the Liberals are in government in Tas) and suspended normal politics for the specific purpose of dealing with the pandemic. In doing so that removed political considerations from the equation and enabled the focus to be on stamping it out.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> The Conversation can indulge in its dystopian circle jerkery all it likes, the fact is, Sweden got it right.
> 
> End of story.




Sorry if the facts contradicted your  opinions.


----------



## wayneL (3 August 2020)

This is how you are being played

https://evidencenotfear.com/how-sage-and-uk-media-created-fear-in-the-british-public/


----------



## wayneL (3 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry if the facts contradicted your  opinions.



The facts of the Sweden approach are incontrovertible, Horace.

I invite you to examine them in depth.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 August 2020)

It's not good to see we have so many modern Mahatma Gandhi aspirants,

Passive resistance for the common harm.


----------



## rederob (3 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As I see it, they've got two choices basically:
> 
> 1. Lock down hard and actually eradicate it.
> 
> 2. "Let it rip" as effectively an isolated nation of sorts. Go down that track and odds are the other states will stop anyone entering from Victoria no matter who they are or what their reason for entering.



There is a "*containment*" option.
The virus exists elsewhere, so if people come from elsewhere then they only get "*here*" *AFTER *they have tested negative. 
If people want or need to cross borders, then test them and track them for a short time and, ideally, test them again a week later even if asymptomatic.
Australia has not adopted best practice, which mandates wearing masks, so until this aspect is a feature of our day to day public lives we pretty well deserve what we get.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Daniel Andrews Press Conference at 2.30.  Not looking good.
> 
> View attachment 106814
> 
> ...



Sounded very Trump like.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

rederob said:


> There is a "*containment*" option.
> The virus exists elsewhere, so if people come from elsewhere then they only get "*here*" *AFTER *they have tested negative.
> If people want or need to cross borders, then test them and track them for a short time and, ideally, test them again a week later even if asymptomatic.
> Australia has not adopted best practice, which mandates wearing masks, so until this aspect is a feature of our day to day public lives we pretty well deserve what we get.



If people would follow the rules, that would be a workable idea, but this is Australia.
You can't encourage society to ridicule and demean authority, then turn around  in the next breath  and tell them to follow what the authorities tell them.
That is the major flaw, with our media driven social engineering programme and it starts in pre school.


----------



## rederob (3 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If people would follow the rules, that would be a workable idea, but this is Australia.
> If people kept left unless overtaking, we could probably reduce the road toll and the need to add extra lanes to freeways, but this is Australia.



But we could be like Sweden  - they keep to the left!


----------



## qldfrog (3 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Sorry if the facts contradicted your  opinions.



Facts are here and sweden is winning, but why spoil a good horror story
Lock down lockdown
We had a WWII and millions died for freedom, 70 years later, people do not want to even catch a flu  for freedom
Worse than Chinese population, at least they got money out of the deal


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

rederob said:


> But we could be like Sweden  - they keep to the left!



The way Victoria is going, they could very well end up like Sweden, which wouldn't be funny at all.


----------



## satanoperca (3 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If people would follow the rules, that would be a workable idea, but this is Australia.




You only need 5% of the population not to follow the rules and the system fails in containing this virus.

Have 98-100% of the population ever followed the rules? NO

Has the war on drugs worked? NO

Has the war on terrorism worked? NO

Have we eliminated poverty? NO

Are we able to look after the environment? NO

Is Covid-19 any difference to humans (virus on the earth)? NO

If 99.9% of people followed the rules, we would have no need for police, locks on our cars and homes etc etc etc

Pipe dreams, be realistic people. Accept the facts, not ideas.


----------



## rederob (3 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Facts are here and sweden is winning, but why spoil a good horror story
> Lock down lockdown
> We had a WWII and millions died for freedom, 70 years later, people do not want to even catch a flu  for freedom
> Worse than Chinese population, at least they got money out of the deal





satanoperca said:


> You only need 5% of the population not to follow the rules and the system fails in containing this virus.
> 
> Have 98-100% of the population ever followed the rules? NO
> 
> ...



Exponential spread begins from *ONE*.


----------



## qldfrog (3 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The way Victoria is going, they could very well end up like Sweden, which wouldn't be funny at all.



They will but we will still claim victory as we did lockdown
Let's stay with fake news, we know who will die and so should protect, let the 20y old rave and make sure aged care facilities are locked down as are hospitals, prepare inter state evacuations, do a bit of PR so that the real vulnerable people are aware, recommend sun exposure, vit supplements and proper healthy lifestyle, learn from abroad basically...


----------



## satanoperca (3 August 2020)

rederob said:


> Exponential spread begins from *ONE*.




I agree, so it is thus impossible to stop the spread.

Actually, for the short term, you can lock down everyone, no movement of people anywhere. But that can only last short term, as we do not live in a world where everyone can exist in isolation.

Ie, we all need food. How does that food come to our homes, if no one can move?

We all don't have a vegie garden and chook house. So people need to plant, pick and process the food, then deliver it to say supermarkets, people then need to travel to the supermarkets to purchase the food, they cannot do this in isolation.

So to believe we can irradicate this virus is foolhardy at best.


----------



## rederob (3 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> I agree, so it is thus impossible to stop the spread.



Based on what some countries have achieved, the clear answer is *no*.
The point is that if some people are going to put their personal freedoms above the rest of their community and flout the law, lie and deceive, then we get a "Victoria."


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

rederob said:


> Based on what some countries have achieved, the clear answer is *no*.
> The point is that if some people are going to put their personal freedoms above the rest of their community and flout the law, lie and deceive, then we get a "Victoria."



Which is driven by a lack of respect for the law and the law makers.IMO
Probably comes under the broad heading of entitlement, which is rampant ATM.


----------



## qldfrog (3 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> They will but we will still claim victory as we did lockdown
> Let's stay with fake news, we know who will die and so should protect, let the 20y old rave and make sure aged care facilities are locked down as are hospitals, prepare inter state evacuations, do a bit of PR so that the real vulnerable people are aware, recommend sun exposure, vit supplements and proper healthy lifestyle, learn from abroad basically...



Btw, in no way do i under estimate the nastiness of the virus,jus5 a matter of proportion and numbers.
Public health should be a matter of numbers and stats, not ideology.
We see that already with helmets laws etc
Yes helmets are useful but mandatory helmets results in less usage and failure here of ride a bike schemes, more obesity in children or non compliance to laws .not complying with even stupid laws is not healthy for society
Anyway here as elsewhere, a fight between individual responsability and slavery for the better of all
I know where I stand, and many others disagree and stand on the other side of the paradise of collectivism.sadly this is costing lives which are mandated by the government whereas the free approach is a more Darwinian view.
If you want to participate to a covid party, feel free and improve the gene pool

Always back to this sadly, whatever the numbers..and i find this sad.


----------



## satanoperca (3 August 2020)

rederob said:


> Based on what some countries have achieved, the clear answer is *no*.
> The point is that if some people are going to put their personal freedoms above the rest of their community and flout the law, lie and deceive, then we get a "Victoria."




But you are stating the obvious, some people, % of the population, not just Victorians have always done this, flouted the law.

So why does this situation make it any different?

Redrob, apart from NZ what countries have managed to get this under control?


----------



## satanoperca (3 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Which is driven by a lack of respect for the law and the law makers.IMO



But that has always been the case. While out of the news, ICE/drug use has increased, that is not following the letter of the law, but it exists and will continue to. 

So why do we believe that humans will all of a sudden follow new rules? It is naive to think that.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> But that has always been the case. While out of the news, ICE/drug use has increased, that is not following the letter of the law, but it exists and will continue to.
> 
> So why do we believe that humans will all of a sudden follow new rules? It is naive to think that.



I'm making the point, that in recent times the media has made a sport out of undermining politicians/social norms and authority in general, the side effect of this is it becomes socially acceptable to mimic that behaviour.
Hasn't there been a massive increase in socially unacceptable behaviour and assaults on teachers, by students in schools. 
There has been a marked increase, over recent years, in assaults on police, road rage, assaults on the elderly etc.
Humans don't follow the letter of the law, but the more the masses are told the social and authoritarian structures are a sham, the more they are going to disregard them.
When the majority accepts that it is a sham, anarchy rules.
What is naive, is to think that not following the rules, is acceptable and will lead to a better outcome.


----------



## satanoperca (3 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> What is naive, is to think that not following the rules, is acceptable and will lead to a better outcome.




Agreed, but that is also asking people to have some level of empathy and understanding.


----------



## rederob (3 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> But you are stating the obvious, some people, % of the population, not just Victorians have always done this, flouted the law.
> 
> So why does this situation make it any different?
> 
> Redrob, apart from NZ what countries have managed to get this under control?



The very first person to contract the virus never knew they had it.
Many people spreading the virus right now do not know they have it.
That's very different from interacting with people (sexually) who are most likely to have it, despite it being their job to protect the community from it.  
That's obvious, I would have thought.


----------



## satanoperca (3 August 2020)

So what is your solution? 
You are good at stating the facts, but what is your solution? 
Yes Redrob, I am frustrated, spent my whole life dealing with people who are good at suggesting ideas, but less than 5% can implement them.
So again, what is your solution to this issue, how would you implement it, what are the expected outcomes?


----------



## Knobby22 (3 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> So what is your solution?
> You are good at stating the facts, but what is your solution?
> Yes Redrob, I am frustrated, spent my whole life dealing with people who are good at suggesting ideas, but less than 5% can implement them.
> So again, what is your solution to this issue, how would you implement it, what are the expected outcomes?




Heaps of countries have this under control but they don't speak English. We had it under control but there are other forces at work now who don't want us to  succeed. International forces.

We have entered the world of the anti maskers.
Some men/women are simply devoid of reason.
In this realm of belief and disbelief, social media amplifies their grotesquery of logic.
It is impossible to know how much of this faux individual freedom outrage is seepage from the conspiracy swamp in America.

In the end, they believe their freedom of expression is worth more than your life!  Wear a mask.


----------



## satanoperca (3 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Heaps of countries have this under control but they don't speak English. We had it under control but there are other forces at work now who don't want us to  succeed. International forces.
> In the end, they believe their freedom of expression is worth more than your life!  Wear a mask.



Edited your post.
What are the heaps of countries that have this under control?
As for masks, they are are like condoms, wear one if you do not want the consequences of having to look after a living being or don't wear one, your choice. Same with masks.

Again, provide a solution, wearing a mask is just one component of providing a solution.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Agreed, but that is also asking people to have some level of empathy and understanding.



That is true and I think that is why some of this has to be laid at Daniel Andrews feet.
From what I have read, since he has come to office, he has projected the image of who gives a $hit, it is my way or the highway and I don't give a crap what anyone else thinks.
Well IMO that has empowered a lot in Victoria to think the same way, so in reality you get what you sow.
On the same theme telling kids they can be feral and there is nothing that can be done about it, will end up with those that way inclined, enjoying that freedom and pushing the boundaries.


----------



## rederob (3 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> As for masks, they are are like condoms, wear one if you do not want the consequences of having to look after a living being or don't wear one, your choice. Same with masks.



Condoms do not make the wearer pregnant!
Health officers in Australia have not understood that masks protect the wearer every bit as much as the people around them.  If you cannot put your fingers onto your mouth or to your nose, that's 2 of the 3 avenues of the virus into your body that are literally covered. 
I have already posted a video where Fauci explains the measures that concurrently allows a functional economy with mitigation.


----------



## satanoperca (3 August 2020)

rederob said:


> Condoms do not make the wearer pregnant!
> Health officers in Australia have not understood that masks protect the wearer every bit as much as the people around them.  If you cannot put your fingers onto your mouth or to your nose, that's 2 of the 3 avenues of the virus into your body that are literally covered.
> I have already posted a video where Fauci explains the measures that concurrently allows a functional economy with mitigation.




I ask again, what is your solution to the issue, except from wearing masks, which I agree with?


----------



## SirRumpole (3 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> From what I have read, since he has come to office, he has projected the image of who gives a $hit, it is my way or the highway and I don't give a crap what anyone else thinks.




Don't they all ?


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Don't they all ?



Well most are not as in your face as Andrews, he started with a bang and it hasn't seemed to have fizzled.
Maybe it is just a Victorian thing, Jeff Kennett was of a similar mould, from memory.


----------



## satanoperca (4 August 2020)

I believe this is what one poster has been trying to communicate all along.

Coronavirus: We may never find a vaccine that works says World Health Organisation

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...n/news-story/86b4f2600b27e40dd8d7ea54bc1653f4


----------



## IFocus (4 August 2020)

Be like Sweden?

Can some one tell me how when Sweden is about personal responsibility and following directives with a support network state that will look after you if you cannot get to work.

Can some one tell me how this works for the 1.5 million casuals that are not covered here in Australia?
That's just for starters

Spread of the virus = people + movement + contact

Can anyone tell me how Sweden isn't doing the above ?


Below gives an idea of some of the problems of "just be like Sweden".


"Before we get too hung up on blaming the state govt, or the federal govt, or China for our covid situation let’s review some facts :
1. We had to bring in mandatory quarantining in hotels, because we couldn’t trust people to stay home after returning from overseas.
2. We then had to bring in security, because we couldn’t trust people to stay in those hotels.
3. We then had to bring in ADF, because we couldn’t trust the security guards not to have sex with those in quarantine in the hotels.
4. We had to get police to door knock and check up on people, because we couldn't trust those who were meant to be self-isolating to actually stay at home.
5. We also have to have police and ADF reinforce the metropolitan Melbourne zone and state borders, because we can’t trust people to follow the restrictions.
6. We are now being asked to use masks, because we cannot trust people to social distance when they are in public.
7. Through it all, our supermarkets have had to introduce shopping restrictions because we couldn’t trust people to not to take more than what they needed.
So we can get as mad as we want at politicians or health officials for imposing restrictions, or the country where the virus originated, but essentially it’s our own fault that we find ourselves here.
Selfishness and lack of empathy seems to be as much of a disease as covid itself.
The quicker people start following directions, the quicker this situation will improve."


----------



## satanoperca (4 August 2020)

IFocus, I wonder if you can compare Australia with Sweden.

So I found this, thought it was interesting as it goes to the heart of your post. If Australians are more or less compliant to govnuts directives.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/Sweden/Crime


----------



## moXJO (4 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Heaps of countries have this under control but they don't speak English. We had it under control but there are other forces at work now who don't want us to  succeed. International forces.
> 
> We have entered the world of the anti maskers.
> Some men/women are simply devoid of reason.
> ...



Its not why it spread though. People just bent the rules.


----------



## sptrawler (4 August 2020)

As we said early in the outbreak, after reading the post that @qldfrog found analysing the virus, this will be difficult if not impossible to get a vaccine for.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...e-covid-19-silver-bullet-coronavirus/12521004
From the article:
WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus and WHO emergencies head Mike Ryan have strongly encouraged all nations to rigorously enforce health measures such as mask-wearing, social distancing, handwashing and testing.
He said face masks should become a symbol of solidarity around the world.
"A number of vaccines are now in phase three clinical trials and we all hope to have a number of effective vaccines that can help prevent people from infection," he said.

"However, there's no silver bullet at the moment — and there might never be.
"There are many vaccines under trial, a couple in the final stage of clinical trials — and there is hope," Dr Tedros said.

"It does not mean that we will have the vaccine, but at least the speed with which we reached the level we reached now is unprecedented.

"There are concerns that we may not have a vaccine that may work, or its protection could be for just a few months, not more. But until we finish the clinical trials, we will not know."


----------



## IFocus (4 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> IFocus, I wonder if you can compare Australia with Sweden.
> 
> So I found this, thought it was interesting as it goes to the heart of your post. If Australians are more or less compliant to govnuts directives.
> 
> https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/Sweden/Crime




That was a good find Satanoperca  thanks, interesting that the murder by guns is inline with gun ownership.

I didn't really get a feel for compliance as the numbers cross over a bit through the categories , would think possibly Aust stats skewed by indigenous issues as well.  

Still the Swedes appear to have a formula that works for them (that came at a heavy cost) for now and its important to remember they like everyone are still only a small step away from run away infections that we are seeing in Victoria.
People keep saying they have heard immunity which isn't the case (81,000 infections / population of 10 million)


----------



## satanoperca (4 August 2020)

Ifocus, yes the Swedish model is interesting, only time will tell whether it was the most appropriate approach.

While there deaths rates per capita are high, I believe we will see a significant increase in suicides, domestic violence, depression etc and whether people want to accept it, it is the future generations that will have to pay off the debt, that is also a human cost.

As I am located in Vic, what I am seeing on the ground is terrible, so many business will close the doors, so many people will loose their jobs and the VERY VERY BIG GENIE, is 

drum roll ...............................................................................

PROPERTY PRICES TO GET SMASHED, resulting in a prolonged downturn that will cause a negative feedback loop far greater than this VIRUS.


----------



## moXJO (4 August 2020)

We cannot survive too many lockdowns. At some point we will go broke. Sooner or later you have to expect riots as people lose everything. Its a gamble with the wait and hope method for a vaccine. Waiting for a higher % survival treatment might be the option. Then hope we can keep the death rate down.

I'm not big on just letting people die either. At some point we will either have to let people risk dying or risk financially/mentally destroying a much higher % of people.


----------



## macca (4 August 2020)

Trying to link a Bill Gates interview on a trial vaccine, it seems that 100% of participants have had side effects. Watch the body language !!!


----------



## basilio (4 August 2020)

*Victorian coronavirus rulebreakers warned as Melbourne woman charged with attacking police officer over mask
*
A growing group of anti-maskers have been "baiting" and antagonising Victorian police, and in one instance smashed the head of a female officer into concrete until she was concussed, authorities say.

Key points:

Police say there's a trend of people calling themselves "sovereign citizens" who refuse to comply with rules
The Chief Commissioner said on at least four occasions in the past week, police had to smash car windows to get people's details
Premier Daniel Andrews said the alleged assault on the 26-year-old police officer was "fundamentally disgusting"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...sovereign-citizens-amid-mask-assault/12522332


----------



## sptrawler (4 August 2020)

basilio said:


> *Victorian coronavirus rulebreakers warned as Melbourne woman charged with attacking police officer over mask
> *
> A growing group of anti-maskers have been "baiting" and antagonising Victorian police, and in one instance smashed the head of a female officer into concrete until she was concussed, authorities say.
> 
> ...



Yes I read about that today, some woman knocked a female police officer to the ground, then repeatedly smacked her head on the concrete.
It's a shame people can't get all wound up about that sort of thing, I guess it isn't emotive enough for the usual 'rent a crowd' protesters. Much better to protest against authority, rather than for it, I guess.
It would be interesting to see if we could get a crowd together, to protest for mandatory 10 year jail terms for anyone who assaults a police officer, that may actually reduce the level of force police have to use to restrain felons and solve two problems at once.
But it wouldn't get much media coverage, is my guess.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> the Swedish model is interesting, only time will tell whether it was the most appropriate approach



Indeed.

There's no certainty in any of this and that itself is a point that everyone involved in making decisions is hopefully bearing in mind. Regardless of what they do, there's no 100% certainty that it's going to be right, it's not as though we're building a bridge or organising to move a million tonnes of freight and can just calculate everything with precision. This is far less certain than that.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well most are not as in your face as Andrews, he started with a bang and it hasn't seemed to have fizzled.
> Maybe it is just a Victorian thing, Jeff Kennett was of a similar mould, from memory.




Jeff Kennett was an ex army officer used to giving orders and having them obeyed, which is why he was such an arrogant c***.

He redeemed himself a bit by founding BeyondBlue and was one of the first I can remember to bring the subject of mental illness into the public view.


----------



## satanoperca (4 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Jeff Kennett was an ex army officer used to giving orders and having them obeyed, which is why he was such an arrogant c***.
> 
> He redeemed himself a bit by founding BeyondBlue and was one of the first I can remember to bring the subject of mental illness into the public view.




You are harsh, what have you done to provide a better society except for attach peoples integrity.

Oh, sorry, missed that fact that someone who calls himself SIR, resolved world poverty

PS. He was an arrogant c..nt because he had to deal with people like you.


----------



## IFocus (4 August 2020)

To be honest Kennet was a shocker even though I like him wouldn't have wanted him for a WA premier.


----------



## spooly74 (5 August 2020)




----------



## moXJO (5 August 2020)

Interesting to note that Sweden moved down the list of deaths to % pop to number 22. Singapore which was fine but got reinfected is back at 17.


----------



## rederob (5 August 2020)

spooly74 said:


>



 The WHO merely confirms that lockdowns are "*blunt tool*."
Australia has failed in many areas:

poor strategy for handling international arrivals and those crossing borders
POCT could have been used as a first level of assessment at all borders for everyone, *without exception*
full address and contact details should have been collected from all border crossers

all positive cases should have been removed to isolation centres until virus traces disappeared (Wuhan model)
aged care facilities should have been subjected to mandatory audits to ensure every worker was trained to a high level in COVID-safe practices, that all necessary PPE was available and being used, and that facilities were actually following strict safety and compliance regimes, rather than simply having "paper plans"
daily POCT testing of staff should have been occurring

mandatory wearing of masks in public should have been enacted long ago and certainly before numbers got out of control (not afterwards), and there should be no exceptions
Australians have, unfortunately, shown a level of selfish disregard that precludes us from adopting the Swedish model.
On the economic front, we have not thought through business/activities that are low risk and have continued with broad brush closures as lockdowns became progressively more severe.  For example, I have never worked out how 2 people playing a round of golf without a golf cart could pose a risk of spread.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2020)

In W.A fortunately we are just about back to 'normal' as far as local business goes, no O/S or interstate travel happening, but pubs and local social activity is back to normal.
The great thing is, people are still observing social distancing protocols and being very sensible, it has actually become the norm and I think will become natural behaviour here. Time will tell.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2020)

rederob said:


> The WHO merely confirms that lockdowns are "*blunt tool*."
> Australia has failed in many areas:
> 
> poor strategy for handling international arrivals and those crossing borders
> ...



Singapore has failed as well.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2020)

Thailand is doing a fantastic job after being one of the first outside China to get it.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 August 2020)

North Korea doing well.
Numbers recorded are 1, then 0, 1, then 0. (gunshots in between).


----------



## rederob (5 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> Singapore has failed as well.



No data to suggest that is the case.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 August 2020)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...sovereign-citizens-amid-mask-assault/12522332


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2020)

rederob said:


> No data to suggest that is the case.



They have had a second wave 

They are back at number 17 for deaths per % of pop. That's a failure to contain....


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...sovereign-citizens-amid-mask-assault/12522332



I swear this was dreamt up by 4chan and taken up by idiots.
I don't get why its so hard to wear a mask.


----------



## rederob (5 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> They have had a second wave
> 
> They are back at number 17 for deaths per % of pop. That's a failure to contain....



Please check your data.
They had a mild second wave and rank in the bottom quartile of the 195 countries in the world, with half as many deaths per capita than Australia.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> I swear this was dreamt up by 4chan and taken up by idiots.
> I don't get why its so hard to wear a mask.



I don't get why protesters have to loot, I guess there are some strange people in the world.


----------



## moXJO (5 August 2020)

rederob said:


> Please check your data.
> They had a mild second wave and rank in the bottom quartile of the 195 countries in the world, with half as many deaths per capita than Australia.



You are correct, hit the wrong tally. And the list looks completely different.

Scratch what I said about Sweden and Singapore.


----------



## grah33 (5 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> It is arguably unproven that they've achieved it but WA, NT, SA, Tas and NZ are all in the situation of seemingly having eliminated it within the local population. To the extent they've got any ongoing issues, it's with people who've arrived from somewhere else notably Vic. Hence they've all now become extremely tight in terms of letting anyone in.
> 
> Whilst those places all have lower populations and population density than Victoria does, Perth with it's population of 2 million, Auckland with 1.65 million and Adelaide with 1.3 million in their urban areas aren't exactly small country towns. They're all proper cities, they've all got reasonably large buildings, they've all got public transport and so on.
> 
> ...




Interesting  Smurf, nice analyses .  It can happen I guess.  Did in 1918 - an island was saved. I'm guessing it won't work out .  Might not be too long before we take a different course or action.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I don't get why protesters have to loot, I guess there are some strange people in the world.



No protesters are looting in Australia. 
Seem to be getting the conspiracy idiots though.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> No protesters are looting in Australia.
> Seem to be getting the conspiracy idiots though.



No we are lucky in Australia, one we don't get the huge crowds and two we don't seem to be as off the planet as Americans appear to be.


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 August 2020)

grah33 said:


> I'm guessing it won't work out . Might not be too long before we take a different course or action.



Where I can see a problem is if multiple states do eradicate it but one or more doesn't.
Individually those other states might be a bit of a pushover politically, the smaller population ones in particular, but collectively they're somewhat more significant. Even if it's just Qld, NT, WA, SA, Tas well they've still got a lot of clout between them.

I'm foreseeing a risk of some sort of conflict between the states and the federal government basically. I don't mean conflict as in military sort of conflict but perhaps the biggest conflict we've seen between states in a very long time. Any state which has actually eradicated it sure isn't going to be at all keen on having people come in from somewhere that it's rampant.

The idea that NSW and Vic, or even just Vic, is isolated from everywhere else for an extended period would be "interesting" to say the least.


----------



## qldfrog (6 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Where I can see a problem is if multiple states do eradicate it but one or more doesn't.
> Individually those other states might be a bit of a pushover politically, the smaller population ones in particular, but collectively they're somewhat more significant. Even if it's just Qld, NT, WA, SA, Tas well they've still got a lot of clout between them.
> 
> I'm foreseeing a risk of some sort of conflict between the states and the federal government basically. I don't mean conflict as in military sort of conflict but perhaps the biggest conflict we've seen between states in a very long time. Any state which has actually eradicated it sure isn't going to be at all keen on having people come in from somewhere that it's rampant.
> ...



Not interesting, catastrophic
People are labelling anti mask as selfish etc
But i have never seen such a selfish attitude in Australia as we have now
Basically the over 40/50 sacrificing the below 45 lives and wealth
Worse, for the purpose of maintaining that paranoia, we forget basic prevention: where have you read anything about vit D on gov leaflet?we are killing people now...
3 months ago, we were told not to use masks whereas it was a known fact it was a must have,
 then we trash the Swedish experience.the story changes every day and now we push hate: against anti mask, even colour..the black crooks bringing it back in Qld, and now Victorians and NSW for us here in Qld are the the enemy:
Dob them
Seriously, and then we are supposed to shed a tear on anzac day for people who die by millions to fight for freedom, a freedom of movement and thinking that we gave up for free for what could be at worst 20 to 30k lives, deaths which we are at best postponing for 1 y or so?
You are being played
How can people not realise that, it is do blatant..
And as a trade, we bankrupt our economy and future
The question is not is it a conspiracy?, more which one?
In that context , i see the next stage in contest suppression being done by shovelling more money this time *not* to big businesses ( inflating financial asset)
But next by sending money *to people *via gov backed loans to everyone and his her dog
Business, car,home and personal loans, why not neg interest even 
This will trigger std inflation cpi
Wait for the riots against lockdown to start and this will be the next step
Then will be the timevto go gold for sure


----------



## moXJO (6 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> No protesters are looting in Australia.
> Seem to be getting the conspiracy idiots though.



That's the start in my opinion. You have to ask where their info is pushed from.


----------



## IFocus (6 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> That's the start in my opinion. You have to ask where their info is pushed from.




What the term, "foreign state actors"


----------



## IFocus (6 August 2020)

No one is talking about Taiwan?

https://www.econlib.org/sweden-is-not-the-model-taiwan-is/




http://www.theperspective.se/sweden-and-taiwan-fighting-coronavirus-with-different-strategies/


----------



## basilio (6 August 2020)

Impact of COVID on heath care workers is growing as is concern the PPE protection  hospitals are giving nurses and doctors is inadequate.

*Melbourne nurse begged for better protection from coronavirus before her 'worst fear' came true*
...So far, more than 1,100 Victorian healthcare workers have contracted COVID-19, with several ending up in intensive care.
The nurse, who asked to remain anonymous, developed severe muscle pain, debilitating fevers and bad headaches and immediately sought a COVID-19 test.
She has been in isolation and has not seen her one-year-old daughter since being diagnosed.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...-coronavirus-after-denied-better-ppe/12526430


----------



## rederob (6 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> You are being played



No, we are being impacted by a small number of people who do not believe rules apply to them.
That said, more could be done here, as it has successfully been done overseas - eg see the link from @IFocus .  For example, all modelling studies show wearing masks as being a vital step in getting the virus spread below Rnought. 
The common factor in every successful country to date has been an unwavering consistency of "messaging" based on best available medical advice - and yes, that has included wearing masks once countries had adequate supplies for the public.  Unfortunately Morrison blotted his copybook by fighting with States about "borders," while nationally and amongst most State Chief Medical Officers the wearing of masks is problematic   The result has been a quasi political backlash from a small sector in the community who saw an opportunity to spread utter nonsense about the virus and challenge authorities.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2020)

It certainly doesn't sound good for Victoria, it sounds as though it will get far worse before or if it gets better, if it doesn't the next step will be interesting IMO.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-victoria-peak-weeks-away-1000-cases-day-214515793.html
Daily COVID-19 infections in the state are expected to stay in their thousands for more than a week the report says, before falling below 800 at the end of August and continuing to drop slowly in September.

By the middle of September, the scheduled end of Stage 4 restrictions, cases are expected to be in the 300s – still far higher than daily numbers before the state’s second wave.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2020)

rederob said:


> No, we are being impacted by a small number of people who do not believe rules apply to them.
> That said, more could be done here, as it has successfully been done overseas - eg see the link from @IFocus .  For example, all modelling studies show wearing masks as being a vital step in getting the virus spread below Rnought.
> The common factor in every successful country to date has been an unwavering consistency of "messaging" based on best available medical advice - and yes, that has included wearing masks once countries had adequate supplies for the public.  Unfortunately Morrison blotted his copybook by fighting with States about "borders," while nationally and amongst most State Chief Medical Officers the wearing of masks is problematic   The result has been a quasi political backlash from a small sector in the community who saw an opportunity to spread utter nonsense about the virus and challenge authorities.



I wondered how you would spin it to Morissons fault.


----------



## rederob (6 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I wondered how you would spin it to Morissons fault.



There are dozens of lessons from around the world showing what is proving successful.
How come Morrison can't work out what is necessary for opening up economies while mitigating spread?
This isn't rocket surgery.
Morrison is the weakest PM I can recall in my lifetime, and I would say the same irrespective of his politics.  Just as Shorten was one of the worst picks for Opposition Leader since Arthur Calwell.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2020)

rederob said:


> There are dozens of lessons from around the world showing what is proving successful.
> How come Morrison can't work out what is necessary for opening up economies while mitigating spread?
> This isn't rocket surgery.
> Morrison is the weakest PM I can recall in my lifetime, and I would say the same irrespective of his politics.  Just as Shorten was one of the worst picks for Opposition Leader since Arthur Calwell.



How come the problem is only in one State? Your obvious biases are showing through, as usual.
We can consider ourselves fortunate that Victoria is a Labor State, otherwise your drone would be unbearable.


----------



## rederob (6 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> How come the problem is only in one State?



?
Really.
But you missed the point.
Australia lacks a consistent message on the virus.
Worse, it's out of kilter with best medical advice.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2020)

rederob said:


> ?
> Really.
> But you missed the point.
> Australia lacks a consistent message on the virus.
> Worse, it's out of kilter with best medical advice.



Well every other state seems to have got the consistent message, you really do need to open your mind, rather than trying to make the situation suit the answer you want.


----------



## satanoperca (6 August 2020)

rederob said:


> ?
> Australia lacks a consistent message on the virus.




I agree with this, govnuts (Fed & State) are managing the process as it is separate issues, like somehow the virus understands physical borders. 

Until there is a clear message for the whole of the country (regardless of which state you reside in), this issue will never get resolved.

I feel for those that live on the borders of man-made conceptions of physical areas, states. You are a Victorian if you are in Wodonnga and a New South Walian if you live in Albury and somehow the virus understands this (NOT). Just an example.

So instead of states fighting it out, how about collectively as a nation we work together to find an acceptable solution for all Aussies.


----------



## rederob (6 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well every other state seems to have got the consistent message, you really do need to open your mind, rather than trying to make the situation suit the answer you want.



Nope - there is no consistent message on wearing masks, border restrictions, basis of hotspots, affected businesses and how, documentation, necessary duration or levels of lockdown.
And federal parliament is not sitting so important questions are not being debated.
We are like rabbits in a spotlight; our economic and health fate depending on the vagaries of who has their finger on the trigger.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2020)

rederob said:


> Nope - there is no consistent message on wearing masks, border restrictions, basis of hotspots, affected businesses and how, documentation, necessary duration or levels of lockdown.
> .



All State decisions, only one State has flucked up, the rest have done extremely well.
I think the Federal Government has gone above and beyond with helping people, and I haven't received a cracker, so it isn't because of personal gain.
Time you bought some rust rid mate. 
Maybe a bit of respect and gratitude wouldn't go astray, might set a trend, who knows?


----------



## rederob (6 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> All State decisions, only one State has flucked up, the rest have done extremely well.
> I think the Federal Government has gone above and beyond with helping people, and I haven't received a cracker, so it isn't because of personal gain.
> Time you bought some rust rid mate.



I put blame where it lies and don't care who the politician is - but you can't get away from that perspective.
As I said, there is no consistency of messaging at the national level.  
We have a mishmash of State-driven arrangements because our PM is ineffective.
I began a separate thread months ago about how not to ruin our economy, and the steps not taken continue to feed into our collective woes.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2020)

rederob said:


> I put blame where it lies and don't care who the politician is - but you can't get away from that perspective.
> As I said, there is no consistency of messaging at the national level.
> We have a mishmash of State-driven arrangements because our PM is ineffective.
> I began a separate thread months ago about how not to ruin our economy, and the steps not taken continue to feed into our collective woes.



The PM is limited because it is a Federation and he doesn't have absolute say over the States.
As for your self opinionated thread, on how to run things, how many replies did it get?
On that subject, didn't you say you had something to do with writing policy for the Labor Party, well how has that gone?


----------



## Dona Ferentes (6 August 2020)

rederob said:


> I put blame where it lies and don't care who the politician is - but you can't get away from that perspective.
> As I said, there is no consistency of messaging at the national level.
> We have a mishmash of State-driven arrangements because our PM is ineffective.
> I began a separate thread months ago about how not to ruin our economy, and the steps not taken continue to feed into our collective woes.



you are so wrong,its laughable
(but consistent)


----------



## rederob (6 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The PM is limited because it is a Federation and he doesn't have absolute say over the States.



That's not the point!
Good national leaders around the world have driven consistent policies to address COVID-19 because they knew how to go about it.  
When Morrison had no real plan - just an idea - about "opening up" and got several States offside, things began to unravel.
It got even more of a fist fight when the federal government chose to support Clive Palmer's "border" challenge in the High Court.  
So we now have policy on the run across all levels of government as we try to bandage up health, aged care, employment and the economy.


sptrawler said:


> As for your self opinionated thread, on how to run things, how many replies did it get?



I made statements about what what could work, given they have *been proven to work* elsewhere in the world - hardly my opinion!


sptrawler said:


> On that subject, didn't you say you had something to do with writing policy for the Labor Party ....



No, I wrote policy for whoever was in government at the time.  The fundamental difference in my almost 20 years experience was that Labor was always proactive while the Coalition tended to be more reactive.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2020)

Maybe you will still be blaming Morrison, when Andrews calls stage 129.
It must have been the Liberals who sacked you.

Maybe you should change your moniker to Sir Humfries, he was an expert at never admitting when he was wrong and also never said in two words what could be said in 100.
It's you to a tee.


----------



## rederob (6 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe you will still be blaming Morrison, when Andrews calls stage 129.
> It must have been the Liberals who sacked you.
> 
> Maybe you should change your moniker to Sir Humfries, he was an expert at never admitting when he was wrong and also never said in two words what could be said in 100.
> ...



Keep your personal comments to yourself and address the issues.
From what we know to date about Victoria, the spread is traced back to contractors at quarantined hotels who were not properly managed by the companies employing them.  The government did not condone this, unlike what happened in the NSW cruise ship fiasco.


----------



## basilio (6 August 2020)

I like this perspective on the spread of the COVID virus.

Essentially pointing out that looking for someone (else..) to blame seems to part of human nature but is not going to be effective in dealing with the ongoing problem.
And more importantly it will just break down the huge cooperative efforts needed to stay on top of the issue.
Gideon is an epidemiologist.

*Allocating blame for Covid-19 might be satisfying, but it is unhelpful*
Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz
As with everything this year, it feels like a tired phrase, but we really are all in this together

..._The problem is that this allocating of blame is, at best, unhelpful. In the autopsy of “what went wrong in 2020”, there will almost certainly be people who did the wrong thing, and I’m sure we’ll spend countless gleeful hours dissecting their mistakes. But here and now, apportioning blame is all but impossible. Sure, some teenagers broke the rules, but when we have had some politicians labelling lockdowns as worthless and national media figures dismissing the virus as harmless for the young, can we really blame them? If I was 18 again, ignorantly confident in my own immortality, I too would maybe think that this whole thing was a bit overblown.
As with everything this year, it feels like a tired phrase, but we really are all in this together. Angrily decrying people’s perceived mistakes, while sometimes satisfying, doesn’t really help any of us. The virus has made us all feel helpless, so we search desperately for someone to denounce, even though *the reality is that it’s Covid-19 that’s really the issue here*. Pointing the finger of blame may feel good, but often we don’t really have enough evidence to even know who is at fault, never mind how bad the slip-up might have been. *The one constant in this year of change is how little we truly understand about what’s happening, because the simple fact is that none of us have ever dealt with a situation like this before.*_
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...id-19-might-be-satisfying-but-it-is-unhelpful


----------



## wayneL (6 August 2020)

And yet, our leftists here look for someone else to blame... Anyone other than members of their own pathetic tribe.


----------



## IFocus (6 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well every other state seems to have got the consistent message, you really do need to open your mind, rather than trying to make the situation suit the answer you want.




The federal governments backing Palmer on opening WA boarders was an ideological position at best given the obvious risks to mining in the state which currently is the engine room for the economy that's before you get to the pros and cons of such a move regarding the health of the WA population.

Note that Palmer hasn't ever applied at any time to enter WA yet still the Coalition backed him......why?

Whats the policy agenda for this?

As Morrison wont open parliament up we don't know.

it beggars belief that the government wants everyone to go to work yet our federal politicians cannot seem to be able to do the same.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> The federal governments backing Palmer on opening WA boarders was an ideological position at best given the obvious risks to mining in the state which currently is the engine room for the economy that's before you get to the pros and cons of such a move regarding the health of the WA population.
> 
> Note that Palmer hasn't ever applied at any time to enter WA yet still the Coalition backed him......why?
> 
> ...



I guess it is a constitution thing, I believe McGowan is pushing to have it re scheduled in the Supreme Court, as it should.
All these jurisdiction issues should be thrashed out, the State agenda can differ from the Federal agenda and when it does it should be settled.
Good on McGowan I reckon.
with regard Federal Parliament, my guess would be there are several members from shaky areas, I wouldn't want to be sitting next to them.
The old saying "do as I say, not as I do", isn't a new thing and isn't party specific.


----------



## IFocus (6 August 2020)

Worth a look at all the treatments

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...ments-and-covid19-cure-research/12527034?nw=0


----------



## rederob (6 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> And yet, our leftists here look for someone else to blame... Anyone other than members of their own pathetic tribe.



At what point will you address issues rather than incorrectly attribute poster ideology?


----------



## grah33 (6 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Where I can see a problem is if multiple states do eradicate it but one or more doesn't.
> Individually those other states might be a bit of a pushover politically, the smaller population ones in particular, but collectively they're somewhat more significant. Even if it's just Qld, NT, WA, SA, Tas well they've still got a lot of clout between them.
> 
> I'm foreseeing a risk of some sort of conflict between the states and the federal government basically. I don't mean conflict as in military sort of conflict but perhaps the biggest conflict we've seen between states in a very long time. Any state which has actually eradicated it sure isn't going to be at all keen on having people come in from somewhere that it's rampant.
> ...



yes, i'm thinking similar thoughts as well.  mean time, we continue to ride through to the next phase, whatever that is.


----------



## wayneL (6 August 2020)

rederob said:


> At what point will you address issues rather than incorrectly attribute poster ideology?




What issue would you like me to address, Komrade?


----------



## DB008 (6 August 2020)

lf the University of QLD offered me a Covid-19 vaccine jab (even under trial conditions), l'd take it right now.

https://stories.uq.edu.au/alumni/2020/uq-covid19-timeline/index.html​

*Coronavirus vaccine: Which candidates are the most promising?*

*A total of 26 candidates are currently being trialled on humans, but only a handful have entered into the final stage of testing*
​The race to find a Covid-19 vaccine continues to gather pace at lightning speed, with a total of 26 candidates currently in the clinical evaluation stage of development, according to the World Health Organisation.

A process that typically takes between 10 and 15 years, vaccine production is being worked on by governments and leading pharmaceutical companies, who are hoping to find a vaccine— and a way out of the coronavirus pandemic — by the end of the year.

Of the 26 candidates that are being trialled on humans, only a handful of these have entered into phase three of testing — the final stage before regulatory approval is then secured (or denied).​

*Oxford University and AstraZeneca*
Name: ChAdOx1 nCoV-19

*Sinovac*
Name: CoronaVac

*Moderna*
Name: mRNA-1273

*Pfizer and BioNTech*
Name: BNT162b2


*Other front-runners*
CanSino Biologics: The Chinese biopharmaceutical is still in phase two of its trial, but in June it received limited approval from the government to use its vaccine among military personnel, for one year only.

Sinopharm: China’s state-run pharmaceutical company last month launched its phase three trial among 15,000 volunteers —aged 18 to 60, with no serious underlying conditions— in the United Arab Emirates.

Murdoch Children’s Research Institute: The paediatric medical research firm, based in Melbourne, is conducting a phase 3 trial using a nearly 100-year-old tuberculosis vaccine.​
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...russia-china-moderna-oxford-who-a9653066.html​


----------



## IFocus (6 August 2020)

As I have mentioned before a US vaccine trial is being run out of a clinic where my mate is on a autoimmune trial, he was speaking to the head a couple of days ago apparently its going really well. 

Not sure what phase they are up to now.

The top man did say he couldn't see travel before 2022.


----------



## wayneL (7 August 2020)




----------



## basilio (7 August 2020)

*Fauci tells of death threats as Birx pinpoints fresh areas of Covid concern*

Expert says he has hired security to protect him and family
Taskforce colleague Birx tells some cities to ‘get on top’ of virus
*Anthony Fauci, the top infectious disease expert in the US, has had to hire security to protect himself and his family after receiving death threats in response to his work to stop the spread of coronavirus.*

Fauci, a member of the White House coronavirus taskforce, told CNN that the pandemic has brought out “the best of people and the worst of people, and, you know, getting death threats for me and my family and harassing my daughters to the point where I have to get security”.

Donald Trump’s administration has consistently downplayed the public health threat of coronavirus, but Fauci has just as consistently rejected those efforts. Since the early days of the pandemic, Fauci has provided blunt assessments of the crisis in media appearances and in remarks at the White House, which have been less frequent in recent months.

*“I wouldn’t have imagined in my wildest dreams that people who object to things that are pure public health principles are so set against it and don’t like what you and I say, namely in the world of science, that they actually threaten you,” said Fauci.*

The US has recorded almost 160,000 Covid-19 related deaths and more than 4.8m coronavirus cases, according to Johns Hopkins University, far more than any other country in the world.

In an interview with Politico’s Pulse Check podcast released on Thursday, Fauci was more specific about the threats against his family and said he had worked to ignore the conspiracy theories about him online.

*“There’s one thing about that nonsense that I do object to, and that is the effect that it has on my family,” the doctor added. “Because when you get death threats that require you having security protection all the time, and when they start hassling your children on the phone and at their job and interfering with their lives, that pisses me off, I must say.”*
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/06/anthony-fauci-death-threats-coronavirus


----------



## basilio (7 August 2020)

*Victoria reports 911 healthcare workers have Covid-19, after daily rise of 101* 
There are now 911 healthcare workers with active infections of Covid-19 in Victoria, a rise of 101 since Thursday. Hospitals are already under pressure as nurses are diverted to tackle the crisis in aged care homes and 607 people in the state’s hospitals with the virus.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...workers-have-covid-19-after-daily-rise-of-101


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2020)

basilio said:


> *Victoria reports 911 healthcare workers have Covid-19, after daily rise of 101*
> There are now 911 healthcare workers with active infections of Covid-19 in Victoria, a rise of 101 since Thursday. Hospitals are already under pressure as nurses are diverted to tackle the crisis in aged care homes and 607 people in the state’s hospitals with the virus.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/austral...workers-have-covid-19-after-daily-rise-of-101



It would cop a lot more outrage, if it could be put down to Trump or Morrison.


----------



## wayneL (7 August 2020)




----------



## wayneL (8 August 2020)

More from another Swedish doctor


----------



## rederob (8 August 2020)

wayneL said:


>



Like many of your posts, it is factually flawed.
Here's how deaths are recorded.
For the data be changed will require the Minister to ignore the *underlying cause* of death where that was COVID-19.  It's a bit like ignoring HIV as the underlying cause of death of a person who dies of pneumonia a year later.


----------



## basilio (8 August 2020)

The 1918-19 flu was more lethal than our current bout However the story of  how it affected societies are worth remembering.
*Pale Rider by Laura Spinney review – the flu pandemic that killed 50 million*
Spanish flu in 1918-19 killed vastly more people than the world war it followed, yet has remained in the shadows
ational Museum of Health
Colin Grant
Published on Sat 22 Jul 2017 17.00 AEST



A high-security containment facility in Atlanta, Georgia, keeps under lock and key an organism that in the course of a few months from 1918-1919 was responsible for more deaths than the number of people killed in the first world war. Vanished until 2005, the H1N1 strain of the influenza virus was brought back to life for the purpose of better understanding its catastrophic effect on the world’s population a century ago. But as Laura Spinney points out in _Pale Rider_, the resurrection is not thought universally to be a good idea.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jul/22/pale-rider-laura-spinney-review


----------



## satanoperca (8 August 2020)




----------



## basilio (8 August 2020)

A broader picture of the Swedish approach to COVID compared to the other Scandinavian countries. It isn't that simple

 
*No, Australia should not follow Sweden’s approach to coronavirus  *
July 29, 2020 6.23pm AEST

The costs of preventing the spread of COVID-19 must always be compared to the health, social and economic costs of viable alternatives. Countries across the globe have dealt with this balancing act differently.

One country in particular that has attracted attention for its lighter approach to lockdown is Sweden. Some people have regarded Sweden as an example for Australia to follow.

But Sweden shouldn’t be seen as a model for Australia when it comes to COVID-19. The virus has spread rapidly, they’ve had more deaths, and the economy is suffering just as badly as their neighbours with heavier lockdowns.






https://theconversation.com/no-australia-should-not-follow-swedens-approach-to-coronavirus-143540


----------



## wayneL (8 August 2020)

rederob said:


> Like many of your posts, it is factually flawed.
> Here's how deaths are recorded.
> For the data be changed will require the Minister to ignore the *underlying cause* of death where that was COVID-19.  It's a bit like ignoring HIV as the underlying cause of death of a person who dies of pneumonia a year later.



It's already been established that your idea o what constitutes facts is deeply flawed Robbie, if  it you disagree, take it up with Mr Hitchens on the Twitter post cited, I'm sure he will be delighted to interact with you.


----------



## basilio (8 August 2020)

Wayne Redrob is not infallible. But when it comes to quoting stories with totally dodgy cred  you come out streets ahead. And considering the types of twitter feeds and websites you roam that is a problem.
Just saying.


----------



## satanoperca (8 August 2020)

basilio said:


> A broader picture of the Swedish approach to COVID compared to the other Scandinavian countries. It isn't that simple
> 
> 
> *No, Australia should not follow Sweden’s approach to coronavirus  *
> ...




Nice charts but need a little more clarity :









Why are deaths on the decline in Sweden?


----------



## basilio (8 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Why are deaths on the decline in Sweden?




My comments and the analysis from The Conversation were not saying Sweden is not reducing COVID infections and deaths.
Rather it was saying that the comparison with very similar countries showed Swedish effectiveness was substantially less *and the economic and social impact  on a similar par. *

The judgement call by the Victorian government in response to the steep rise in infections a couple of weeks ago was based on the best current advice about how to clamp down on the spread of the virus ASAP.


----------



## basilio (8 August 2020)

There are discussion about whether COVID deaths have been over reported in the UK and in fact everywhere.  IMV this analysis does an excellent job of explaining under and over attribution of deaths around this pandemic.

The doctor also does a great job of exploring the far wider range of deaths that happen as a consequence of the COVID crisis


----------



## satanoperca (8 August 2020)

basilio said:


> The judgement call by the Victorian government in response to the steep rise in infections a couple of weeks ago was based on the best current advice about how to clamp down on the spread of the virus ASAP.




I am only questioning if that advice was correct. Only time will tell.


----------



## orr (8 August 2020)

Nothing I'd like to do more than get the Swedish model up and going; But first we'd need to get a few things in line...
* The Swedish Tax system
* The Swedish Housing Policy
* The Swedish inherent 50% single owner occupied house
* the Swedish '_puissant_' for rancid fermented( putrified) canned fish... only for the hardmen..
not many of them around here..

I'd be in Oslo, given the option.


----------



## rederob (8 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> It's already been established that your idea o what constitutes facts is deeply flawed Robbie, if  it you disagree, take it up with Mr Hitchens on the Twitter post cited, I'm sure he will be delighted to interact with you.



I posted how deaths are recorded in England and Wales according to the official requirements.
On the other hand you linked a deeply misleading article that you again appear unable to defend.
I really don't need to bother Mr Hitchens because I know that for any changes to the data to occur will require the Minister to ignore the *underlying cause* of death where it was recorded at 1(b) on a death certificate as "COVID-19."


----------



## wayneL (8 August 2020)

@rederob 

Speak to Hitchens, I'll sit and eat popcorn.


----------



## wayneL (8 August 2020)




----------



## Knobby22 (9 August 2020)

wayneL said:


>



It's the opposite.

Car accidents, down.
Death from flu, down.
Death from industrial accidents - down.
Death from recreational accidents - down.

In fact the figures  in May showed our overall death rate is reduced from previous years.

So my question is where is the Government     report link saying this? Would love to read it.

(Just found it, it's about UK. No wonder, they have it worse)


----------



## basilio (9 August 2020)

*Analysis and breakdown of COVID infections in Australia*

*Charting the COVID-19 spread in Australia*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...w-covid-19-spreads-in-australia/12060704?nw=0


----------



## qldfrog (9 August 2020)

Ok some more facts
_Le Brésil déplore 478 morts par million d’habitants, un chiffre équivalent à celui des Etats-Unis (487), mais inférieur à celui de l’Espagne (609) ou de l’Italie (583)._
Death per million inhabitants
Brazil 478, US 487
Vs Spain 609 and Italy 583
The clear proof these right madmen leaders  are killing their people..not..
Which also mean we can expect 500 x 26= 13000 deaths here.
Simple maths.
And the 10 millions swedes got less than 6k ..same same..


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## DB008 (9 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> More from another Swedish doctor




Very interesting.

Swedish population - 10 million
Total passed away with Covid - ~6,000 (so far)

Australian population - 25 million
Total passed away with Covid - 295 (so far)

Melbourne is in stage 4 lockdown, surrounding areas are stage 3. QLD has also shut its border. 

With total deaths, Australia is miles in front of Sweden.


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## Knobby22 (9 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Ok some more facts
> _Le Brésil déplore 478 morts par million d’habitants, un chiffre équivalent à celui des Etats-Unis (487), mais inférieur à celui de l’Espagne (609) ou de l’Italie (583)._
> Death per million inhabitants
> Brazil 478, US 487
> ...



Only if you believe the Brazilian and USA figures. I certainly don't.


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## sptrawler (9 August 2020)

DB008 said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> Swedish population - 10 million
> Total passed away with Covid - ~6,000 (so far)
> ...



The one saving grace about the Victorian outbreak is, the media arent making a big song and dance about the Andrews Government, imagine if it could be blamed on Scomo.
It would be front page to back page news and every t.v station, as with the bushfires.
At least with this they are giving Andrews some slack.


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## satanoperca (9 August 2020)

Testing in Victoria, real or fake?
Spoke with three people last week that went to a testing centre in Victoria, handed their contact details over, but when being informed that the wait was over 1.5hours left without being tested.
24-48hours later received their results : positive - quarantine for 14 days. But they never provided any body fluid to be tested.

Maybe Dan the man outsourced testing again to unqualified peoples.

I wonder how much the companies providing the testing are being paid?

Note : I also know of 5 other people, who actually went through with the testing, 1 came back positive.


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## qldfrog (9 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Only if you believe the Brazilian and USA figures. I certainly don't.



But you believe Spain?
You know so called covid death in Europe include basically any death where people wrre tested positive for covid even if it may be unrelated?
I am not going to play the Rederob but seriously, you trust figures which suits your scenario and not the ones which does not?
Just think about it
FYI, these figures are from the socialist paper: le Monde a good mondialist leftist scaremonging paper
So that is the new movement, when everything will be over, blaming all car accident on covid in places not fitting with prejudiced idea..
A bit disappointed from you Knobby22, usually a bit more realistic than others
Dyor if you want to, otherwise just follow whatever propaganda suits you.i do not personally care, damage is done for me and i will not suffer much more


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## bellenuit (9 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Ok some more facts
> _Le Brésil déplore 478 morts par million d’habitants, un chiffre équivalent à celui des Etats-Unis (487), mais inférieur à celui de l’Espagne (609) ou de l’Italie (583)._
> Death per million inhabitants
> Brazil 478, US 487
> ...




You can't take a snapshot and extrapolate from that without paying attention to trends.

Yes, Brazil and the US are lower than Spain and Italy. But the latter two countries were badly affected earlier on in the pandemic when not so much was known as is now, but they took the necessary action and have to a large extent got it under control.

I follow the Worldometer website figures daily and this is a snap shot from 15th June, last week and today. So we can compare trends over 9 weeks - 15th June to today) compared to over the last week.

I'll put the table in a post that follows this.

You can clearly see that over the last 9 weeks, Spain has only recorded 30 deaths per million and Italy 14 deaths per million, while the USA had 142 and Brazil 269.

Just over the last week, Spain had 2 deaths per million compared to the USA 21 and Brazil 33. Unfortunately I don't have figures for Italy from a week ago, but they have improved even better than Spain if I recall correctly.

If you look at the trend in deaths per week, The average over the last 9 weeks compared to last week has increased for the USA (15.7 to 21) and Brazil (29.8 to 33), but dropped for Spain (3.3 to 2). Italy too has dropped, but I don't have the figures.

If the current trends continue (using last week's trend), it will take only 6 more days for the US to exceed the same overall number of deaths per million as Spain (and under 5 days to exceed Italy's). Brazil should blow through Spain's figure in just over 4 more days.

So in a weeks time, with these trends, the US and Brazil will have exceeded Italy and Spain (and many other countries that were affected badly at the start of the pandemic), but will still be increasing or at best stabilising their death rates and will still be in no position (except for a few states) to reopen the economy and schools (unless they show blatant disregard for safety), whereas Spain and Italy will remain with a negligible death rate and can continue to safely open up for business.

Sorry for the cockup with the table layout, but for some reason a space is a different size that other characters when using a monospaced font. Doesn't make sense.


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## bellenuit (9 August 2020)




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## qldfrog (9 August 2020)

bellenuit said:


> You can't take a snapshot and extrapolate from that without paying attention to trends.
> 
> Yes, Brazil and the US are lower than Spain and Italy. But the latter two countries were badly affected earlier on in the pandemic when not so much was known as is now, but they took the necessary action and have to a large extent got it under control.
> 
> ...



appreciate that approach and agree with it, the focus here and elsewhere on number of infected is largly irrelevant;
Where I would disagree is that I believe there is a pool of fragile people whose death is precipitated then the actual death rate decrease as this is just a shift  earlier of what would have happened with /without covid within months.
I might be wrong of course but this is what has happened in France where infection is even increasing now, so will be interesting to look at that very table in 3 months time, do you have the same figures for the swedish counter model
anyway, will leave it here and we will discuss again in a year or 2 hopefully without the " I do not trust their figure" answer to any annoying truth one way or the other
And to be honest trusting figures here in the west is pretty hard, less than in china, but not by much


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## Knobby22 (9 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> But you believe Spain?
> You know so called covid death in Europe include basically any death where people wrre tested positive for covid even if it may be unrelated?
> I am not going to play the Rederob but seriously, you trust figures which suits your scenario and not the ones which does not?
> Just think about it
> ...



Come on, don't be a dupe.

Brazil testing is minimal.

I've already gone through how the USA testing is incorrect..

If  if you haven't got insurance and are poor why would you get tested? 

If you die at home are without being tested then you are not counted.

Also if you in certain states such as Florida and you die with coronavirus but have a pre existing condition such as heart disease and you die due to heart failure then coronavirus is not considered the cause of death.

 You are marked as dying from a heart attack. The fact you had coronavirus and were on a ventilator doesn't matter. 

You can see the real rate by looking at the death increase which is considerable.

Spain is dodgy as is much of Europe (not the Scandinavian and Germanic countries and Belgium). Even the UK has missed counting the dead in  nursing homes.

You are tech, you know the rule
-rubbish in rubbish out.


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## sptrawler (9 August 2020)

Has the corona virus situation in Victoria, caused a greater financial and human cost, than the bushfires @rederob ?
Just wondering, you seem to be all over responsiblity and accountabilty.


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## wayneL (9 August 2020)




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## Smurf1976 (9 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> View attachment 107105



Sweden has had a huge decline in its death rate most certainly and nobody would dispute that.

The problem is they killed rather a lot of people in order to achieve it, that's the major downside to it.


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## sptrawler (9 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Sweden has had a huge decline in its death rate most certainly and nobody would dispute that.
> 
> The problem is they killed rather a lot of people in order to achieve it, that's the major downside to it.



I think the main issue will be, if there is a residual component to the virus, the Swedes may not be high fiveing each other.
Untill it is shown there is no residual component, I still favour not getting it, everyone to their own though.
If people dont care, just put your hand up for one of the vaccine programes, you can get paid and help allay peoples fears.


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## Knobby22 (9 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think the main issue will be, if there is a residual component to the virus, the Swedes may not be high fiveing each other.
> Untill it is shown there is no residual component, I still favour not getting it, everyone to their own though.
> If people dont care, just put your hand up for one of the vaccine programes, you can get paid and help allay peoples fears.



True, and I seen studies showing less than 7% of them have caught it. They must be pretty good at practicing social distancing.

I know they banned gatherings of more than 50 people and do extensive testing so it's not like they did nothing. 

It's good to see they have it under control now. Gives me hope for Melbourne.


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## IFocus (9 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The one saving grace about the Victorian outbreak is, the media arent making a big song and dance about the Andrews Government, imagine if it could be blamed on Scomo.
> It would be front page to back page news and every t.v station, as with the bushfires.
> At least with this they are giving Andrews some slack.




Afraid not Andrews is coping it seriously from the media and Coalition both are building pressure on the hotel fiasco while he is trying to contain behaviour that every man and his dog seem hell bent on breaking the rules in Victoria.

Mean while the age care homes have been a disaster Australia wide yet the Coalition have so far dodged the outrage.


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## DB008 (9 August 2020)

*World’s First COVID-19 Vaccine to Be Launched by Russia on August 10-12*​
Russia is all set to register a coronavirus vaccine by August 10-12, paving the way for what would be the first official approval of an inoculation against COVID-19 in the world, according to a Bloomberg report.

In a recent televised meeting of officials with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the country’s Deputy Prime Minister Tatyana Golikova said that the vaccine was expected to receive conditional registration in August and production was likely to begin in September. The vaccine developed by the Gamalei Institute of Epidemiology and Microbiology (Moscow, Russia) could be approved for civilian use within three to seven days of its registration, said a person familiar with the process to Bloomberg.

Russia’s COVID-19 vaccine is scheduled to enter Phase 3 trials in Russia, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. Despite its developers claiming the vaccine to be safe and potentially the first to be administered to the public, there is concern over the absence of published data and its fast paced development. Russian health professionals will be administered the COVID19 vaccine before the completion of its clinical trials, according to the Bloomberg report. Russia is also conducting clinical trials of a second COVID19 vaccine, while two more vaccines are expected to be soon granted permission for testing.

“The key requirements for a vaccine are its proven effectiveness and safety so everything needs to be done very carefully and accurately,” Putin reportedly said at the end of the meeting with officials. “Our confidence in the vaccine must be absolute.”​

https://www.hospimedica.com/covid-1...to-be-launched-by-russia-on-august-10-12.html

.​


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## sptrawler (9 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Afraid not Andrews is coping it seriously from the media and Coalition both are building pressure on the hotel fiasco while he is trying to contain behaviour that every man and his dog seem hell bent on breaking the rules in Victoria.
> 
> Mean while the age care homes have been a disaster Australia wide yet the Coalition have so far dodged the outrage.



Well that is good, it shouldnt be party specific, when handing out brick bats.


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## wayneL (9 August 2020)




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## grah33 (10 August 2020)

any idea how an economic crash could effect those who have debts to pay ?
the potential for  deflation inflation etc, lower wages  ....


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## satanoperca (10 August 2020)

grah33 said:


> any idea how an economic crash could effect those who have debts to pay ?
> the potential for  deflation inflation etc, lower wages  ....



Simple, they cannot pay the debt, so deflation. 101 economics


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## basilio (11 August 2020)

The longer term effects of COVID on survivors is still being teased out. This is particularly the case of people who end up with a severe bout.

*What are the Long-Term Effects of COVID-19?*

For many who contract the novel coronavirus, the manifestations of the disease tend to the mild and moderate, with improvement in a couple of weeks. But for those who survive COVID-19 after intubation and a long hospital stay, the health ramifications may last long after they are discharged. 
https://news.umiamihealth.org/en/what-are-the-long-term-effects-of-covid-19/


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## wayneL (11 August 2020)

Well duh, @basilio 

Same with any respiratory disease such as influenza.

Enough of the project fear BS, please!


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## basilio (11 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Well duh, @basilio
> 
> Same with any respiratory disease such as influenza.
> 
> Enough of the project fear BS, please!




*Enough of the BS denial Wayne..*
I'm not making any of this up.
It isn't some macho bravado or "she'll be right mate" rubbish.
There is plenty of evidence from doctors and hospitals who are treating COVID patients of substantial long term consequences of the disease amongst people who have been hospitalised.
Recognising that fact is a critical part of deciding how much effort should be put into preventing the spread of the disease.
Ignoring it is BS denial.


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## satanoperca (11 August 2020)

basilio said:


> *Enough of the BS denial Wayne..*
> I'm not making any of this up.
> It isn't some macho bravado or "she'll be right mate" rubbish.
> There is plenty of evidence from doctors and hospitals who are treating COVID patients of substantial long term consequences of the disease amongst people who have been hospitalised.
> ...




Basilo, Wayne is correct. There are thousands of Australians that have to deal with the aftermath of diseases and viruses after they recover, that IS LIFE.

I will give you a short run down so you understand my stance on the current situation

1. encephalitis herpes - 3months in a coma, age 19, body weight before hand 80kg (exercise kept me alive), coming out of the coma 47kg. _ Yes it sucks, no child hood memories (think about that, you cannot remember the pets you had as a child or even your own name), cannot walk or talk, but hey, I survived better than most that get it (well they die).
2. Myasthenia Gravis (Myasthenia gravis is a chronic autoimmune, neuromuscular disease that causes weakness in the skeletal muscles that worsens after periods of activity and improves after periods of rest. These muscles are responsible for functions involving breathing and moving parts of the body, including the arms and legs.)- age 28, read about this one, nasty, diagnosis, 12months to live. F-k that sucked, back into a wheel chair, cannot talk or walk correctly.
Outcome : 18hours operation, remove 6kg of thymus mass gland from body, wake up sore but can see again and over the next few days can walk again.
3. Meningitis, here we go again, back into a coma, this time only a couple of months, might have been a complication from point 1.

Aside from that I have been totally devoid of hair since I was 13 years old :
Alopecia areata occurs when the immune system attacks hair follicles and may be brought on by severe stress.

Try growing up as a teenager without hair, people look at you strange, think you have cancer or believe you are skin head.
Outcome 30 years later : saved a pile of money on haircuts

So what is long term consequences :
Lots, have to deal with a huge range of complications, from working environments to accepting I might not ever get to 50 years old, but again such is life. I am still alive
Benefits, I see the world different to others, I have empathy, understand and conviction and the willingness to *fight* for life, but accept *death *(been there several times, and before anyone askes there is no white light at the end of the tunnel, sort of).

That is my life in short, so can we all stop trying to save everyone and just appreciate life while we have it.

Also like to ad, I have to deal with cronic depression and mania every day after what happened above, it drives me nuts, but I am still alive and thankful to my parents and the doctors that have kept me alive. 

It is only the due respect of them, that my depression does not overwhelm me and suicide is the easy option.

Life is complicated


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## basilio (11 August 2020)

Satanopera your resilience  in the face of those illnesses is .. something else.
And certainly it gives you a perspective on life and living  that few others could have.

But i suggest the conversation is at cross purposes with teasing out how we respond to COVID 19.
The discussion about the longer term effects of the disease are legitimate because as many posters point out we all pay for the poor health of people after this event. It's a factor that is in the equation.

I said it before but lets repeat it. COVID 19 is a wicked problem. There are no good answers. Everything we do will have negative consequences.  There are only a few certainties. One that does come to mind is the following.

Consider 200 people come together for a wedding, funeral, party, celebration. Imagine a  few  boisterous people there infected with COVID 19. By the end of the night you could see most of the party people also infected.

On current projections at least one will die and a dozen others will be seriously ill - many hospitalised.
Probably another 30-40 will be crook for anyhing from a few days to many weeks.  

Scores of others will also be infected but might not notice it. Nevertheless they will pass the disease on to family, friends, fellow workers.

Is this scenario compatible with running our society the way we currently want to ?


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## macca (11 August 2020)

This is one website that gives a more positive outlook by suggesting things people can do to improve there resistance to Covid.

We need a lot more positive news of successful treatments and recoveries to give people a sense of direction.

A lot of the resistance to the lockdown is that the Govt is not really achieving anything, just kicking the can down the road and the public know that

https://www.stopcovidcold.com/


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## IFocus (11 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Basilo, Wayne is correct. There are thousands of Australians that have to deal with the aftermath of diseases and viruses after they recover, that IS LIFE.
> 
> I will give you a short run down so you understand my stance on the current situation
> 
> ...




Thats huge Sat very inspiring, courageous effort to keep fighting, good on you and long may it 
continue. Always feel free to reach out if you would like to talk to some one.

As you say disease and death is all around us at any time I guess the problem with Covid is its all at once in massive numbers if you don't act.
On top of that the reinfection rate appears quite high should you have immediate exposure soon after recovery. 
What that infection rate looks like next year for survivors is still an unknown but present testing of anti bodies is not looking good. 
So anyone with longer term problems coming out of recovery would likely go into the group most likely to die next year and so on it goes.


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## satanoperca (11 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Satanopera your resilience  in the face of those illnesses is .. something else.
> And certainly it gives you a perspective on life and living  that few others could have.
> 
> But i suggest the conversation is at cross purposes with teasing out how we respond to COVID 19.
> ...




But that is life. We have as a society to choose 2 options :
1. Live in isolation and not get infected easily
2. Live with the virus, but live, havd freedom to go down the beach and catch up with friends, which may result in getting sick and maybe dying.

As someone who has died (revived), survived multiple illnesses that should have resulted in death, I am telling anyone who will listen that the actions taken by govnuts are worse than the illness.

If you want to live alone and keep isolated from society so you can live an isolated and lonely life (humans are communal creatures) , but live forever, go for it.

I will not  submit to this craziness. F--k all unreasonable rules, I want to live with freedoms


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## wayneL (11 August 2020)

basilio said:


> *Enough of the BS denial Wayne..*
> I'm not making any of this up.
> It isn't some macho bravado or "she'll be right mate" rubbish.
> There is plenty of evidence from doctors and hospitals who are treating COVID patients of substantial long term consequences of the disease amongst people who have been hospitalised.
> ...



English comprehension, basilio.

I didn't deny that there may be some enduring consequences for people that have been severely affected, if you have the ability to read you will see and also by other posts that I have put forth that other respiratory diseases such as influenza, also have such long-term consequences.

What you should really try to do basilio is to understand what people are saying rather than creating a amateurish strawman argument which makes you look like a fool with no understanding of the debate.


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## satanoperca (11 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Satanopera your resilience  in the face of those illnesses is .. something else.
> And certainly it gives you a perspective on life and living  that few others could have.
> 
> But i suggest the conversation is at cross purposes with teasing out how we respond to COVID 19.
> ...




I agree with what you say, but that is life, don't expect you can change it, accept it, make the best possible outcome for family and friends, but birth, death, disease is part of the cycle.


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## Smurf1976 (11 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> We have as a society to choose 2 options :
> 1. Live in isolation and not get infected easily
> 2. Live with the virus, but live, havd freedom to go down the beach and catch up with friends, which may result in getting sick and maybe dying.




3. Eradicate it if that is indeed possible.

For those saying it can't be eradicated, I think that view would be somewhat different if it came with a far higher death rate.

It "can't" be eradicated just as overweight people "can't" lose weight, people of normal intelligence "can't" complete a degree or TAFE course and alcoholics "can't" give up the booze. If you don't really want something then sure, you won't achieve it.

I'm yet to see real, hard evidence that eradication is not possible and, more to the point, couldn't have been achieved by now if we'd stop messing about with halfway measures and just give it one proper go. 

I could well be completely wrong there but thus far I'm yet to see a proper, scientific approach which says that is the case. 

Keep the humans away from other humans for a few weeks and it dies out. Done. To the extent they really must be in groups, put them in one group and keep them in that group for the duration.


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## SirRumpole (11 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm yet to see real, hard evidence that eradication is not possible and, more to the point, couldn't have been achieved by now if we'd stop messing about with halfway measures and just give it one proper go.
> 
> I could well be completely wrong there but thus far I'm yet to see a proper, scientific approach which says that is the case.




I'm sure it could be eradicated, except for the people including some on this forum that take a "stuff everyone else" attitude and wander around possibly infecting people without knowing or caring in the name of "freedom" .

Sure freedom is important, but is it as important as life ? The majority of victims maybe elderly but there are some quite young people in there as well. The after effects are being reported including chronic fatigue lasting possibly months. And sure people say that we could die of anything, true but we don't necessarily pass it on to others on the way.

To sum up , I think eradication is unlikely unless the authorities are prepared to take a China like approach and lock people up, which let's face it is what we used to do in quarantine centres here.

That probably also means compulsory testing, because it's unlikely that people will come forward voluntarily if they know they could be carted off to a quarantine centre for two weeks.

So as hard as people think they have it, it could be a lot worse and people could actually be being arrested and forced into isolation instead of being expected to obey the rules voluntarily.


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## cynic (11 August 2020)

Idiocy, obesity and alcoholism are  not contagious whereas covid19 is!

Eradication may well be a possibility (in theory at least) but the benefits of the pursuit of same, ideally need to be carefully weighed against, the impact on society (arising from the implementation of such extreme and burdensome measures).

I can already tell, just from what I am witnessing in my local area, that what is currently being done, is literally, costing more lives than are being saved.


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## basilio (11 August 2020)

Keeping up spirits


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## wayneL (11 August 2020)

How's yer New Zealand envy going?

Sweden wins again.


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## IFocus (11 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> 3. Eradicate it if that is indeed possible.
> 
> For those saying it can't be eradicated, I think that view would be somewhat different if it came with a far higher death rate.
> 
> ...




Yep, People + movement + contact = Virus transmission, I am with you Smurf


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## IFocus (11 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> How's yer New Zealand envy going?
> 
> _*Taiwan*_ wins again.




Just to help you out


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## satanoperca (11 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm sure it could be eradicated, except for the people including some on this forum that take a "stuff everyone else" attitude and wander around possibly infecting people without knowing or caring in the name of "freedom" .




Are you a child, what sort of stupid, idiotic statement is that.

Show me one person let alone persons on this forum that have advocated let it rip attitude and f-kk everyone else.

It is your type of statements that causes confusion and make people disobey the rules. 

Your Sir are part of the problem.


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## satanoperca (11 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> How's yer New Zealand envy going?
> 
> Sweden wins again.




Wayne they are doing great with the exception that they did not eradicate a virus that cannot be eradicated. 
Apart from that small hiccup, everything is Hunkie Dorie in NZ


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## Smurf1976 (11 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Eradication may well be a possibility (in theory at least) but the benefits of the pursuit of same, ideally need to be carefully weighed against, the impact on society (arising from the implementation of such extreme and burdensome measures).




Some random thoughts. Not saying I necessarily agree with them, they're just thoughts.

Legal - If someone breaches the lockdown requirements etc then that's attempted manslaughter is it not? Charge them accordingly and note their liability for economic costs incurred by others from whatever's needed to contain any outbreak to which they've contributed.

In principle I'm not overly keen on the whole "legal" approach but it might be effective. It is in similar situations eg workplace safety it's imperfect but gives a decent push to it that otherwise wouldn't exist.

Quarantine - At some future time there will be another pandemic that's a given and it may well be more (or less) serious than this one.

If we can't eradicate this pandemic then should we not be taking that as a huge warning sign that we're sitting ducks for another, far more serious, one to occur?

Can we ever go back to the idea of someone flying from Melbourne to Doha to London and simply walking straight off the plane and less than an hour later they're sitting on the Heathrow Express (train) next to someone who just arrived from China and across from someone who just arrived from the US all heading to Paddington (central London) from where they'll simply get of the train and walk straight out of the station?

Can we ever sensibly return to that knowing that we can't contain a pandemic if one starts? If we can't contain this one, then it seems foolish to think we'll contain a more serious one in future.

Cities - Put simply, is Australia having 40% of its population in just two cities an unacceptably large risk that we'd be foolish to continue?

Melbourne's in crisis already, we're in even more pain if Sydney goes as well.

Should we be enacting policies to outright stop any further growth in population in those two locations and indeed intentionally shrink them?

Should we cap any one city to, say, 10% of national population?

Those are just thoughts, I'm not claiming to have calculated anything etc, but I think there's some real issues here since sooner or later there will be another pandemic and the next one may well be far more deadly than this one. If we conclude that we can't contain this one, then we'd be wise to change our ways before the next one would we not?


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## wayneL (12 August 2020)

Manslaughter?

Now we are getting extremely silly. We are not sleepwalking into a totalitarian police state, we are actively encouraging it!

Stop making me a Sweden cheerleader all the time, woulda thunk they would have been the last bastion of liberty in the world?


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## qldfrog (12 August 2020)

An unsurprising story in NZ which should be but will not a lesson for the whole country inc qld wa
You can delay, you can not suppress a world pandemic.
So act accordingly


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## SirRumpole (12 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Are you a child, what sort of stupid, idiotic statement is that.
> 
> Show me one person let alone persons on this forum that have advocated let it rip attitude and f-kk everyone else.
> 
> ...




You may want to read your own comments again.



satanoperca said:


> I will not submit to this craziness. F--k all unreasonable rules, I want to live with freedoms



*
Temporary* restriction of freedoms can suppress the virus to the extent that we can go about our normal lives again , as in virtually all states except Victoria at the moment.

So I would say that your stated attitude if multiplied in the population is the problem.


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## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> *Temporary* restriction of freedoms can suppress the virus to the extent that we can go about our normal lives again , as in virtually all states except Victoria at the moment.




Worked well in NZ, NOT!

You can reduce the transfer/infection rate of this virus, but the economy and peoples lives will be destroyed if govnuts keep pushing these restrictions every time the infection rate increases.

I don't live in a glass tower, so reducing my freedoms to see my elderly parents, is just bull...it.

But SIR, time will tell, who is right and who is wrong.


----------



## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So I would say that your stated attitude if multiplied in the population is the problem.




Go and read my post about my past, I am one of those people who has a depressed immune system, I am in the higher risk category and under 50 years old. 

So I would say it is those the live in glass towers, should go down to ground level and see what is happening on the ground and the massive impact these restrictions are having on good people's lives.


----------



## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> *Temporary* restriction of freedoms




Can you assist me in understanding how you perceive this situation?

What is temporary?
1 Month
6 Months
12 Months
3 years

I am all for temporary disruption of 1-3 months but not  6 months >


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> What is temporary?




If people obey the rules, it will be less than if they don't.


----------



## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If people obey the rules, it will be less than if they don't.



Can you please just answer a simple question, define temporary?


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Can you please just answer a simple question, define temporary?




There are standards available for pandemic treatment regarding restrictions versus an acceptable number of cases. I suggest you contact an epidemiologist for full details, I'm certainly not qualified to answer your question.


----------



## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> There are standards available for pandemic treatment regarding restrictions versus an acceptable number of cases. I suggest you contact an epidemiologist for full details, I'm certainly not qualified to answer your question.




How hard is it! I will ask again, what is your personal definition of temporary?

I can ask an epidemiologist, a psychologist, an economist and a 1000 business owners that cannot operate, they will all give me different answers, but I was not asking them, I was asking you.

I will help you out a little :
Temporary shut down of society <3months to see if we can reduce and if possible eliminate a virus, after that the effects of the shutdown are worse than the disease.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> How hard is it! I will ask again, what is your personal definition of temporary?




It's very hard actually because it depends on the assumption that people observe the rules.

If people do the right thing then the time period will be less than if they don't.


----------



## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> It's very hard actually because it depends on the assumption that people observe the rules.
> 
> If people do the right thing then the time period will be less than if they don't.




So you cannot answer a simple question?


----------



## moXJO (12 August 2020)

Anyone mentioned the Russian vaccine yet?

So... who's going to be first in line?


----------



## qldfrog (12 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Some random thoughts. Not saying I necessarily agree with them, they're just thoughts.
> 
> Legal - If someone breaches the lockdown requirements etc then that's attempted manslaughter is it not? Charge them accordingly and note their liability for economic costs incurred by others from whatever's needed to contain any outbreak to which they've contributed.
> 
> ...



eradication is smallpox eradication otherwise it is useless=> worldwide or it is not eradication, just attempt at
so until the world eradicates it : Africa ?or the slums of India, nearer Indonesia?, it is not eradication, it is living in a bubble waiting for the next breach with no solution...ahhh yes the vaccine ROL
; and no, a disease where 80% do not have any symptom and a death rate <1% does not warranty destruction of a country whether, me, my mum or my neighbour dies...

So before building scenario about real serious pandemic, let's deal properly with a relatively benign one.
Any faith left over in the ability of our rulers fully now destroyed so expect more Boris and Trump and the end of democracy;
incompetent leech:


----------



## SirRumpole (12 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> So you cannot answer a simple question?




That's because it's not a simple question.

However start off with three months and see how it goes. That's been the case in all States except Victoria, so it's not "one size fits all".


----------



## wayneL (12 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If people obey the rules, it will be less than if they don't.



Not necessarily, Horace.

The rules have to make sense on a number of different levels. The rules as they exist in most of the world don't make sense whatsoever as it is basically delaying the inevitable while at the same time destroying our economies... Ironically weakening our economies for when the inevitable does come.

This serves nobody except the "great reset” conspiracists of The World Economic Forum.

If course if the rules are sensible, people will have no trouble in embracing them. This is why the Swedish experiment has worked so well (and in the fullness of time this will be proved to be so).

Bulshit rules such as are in most of the rest of the world rely on either Stasi state type enforcement or a fear narrative.... Or both such as is the case in Australia.


----------



## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> That's because it's not a simple question.
> 
> However start off with three months and see how it goes. That's been the case in all States except Victoria, so it's not "one size fits all".




Oh so it is easy to make a stupid comment, but to clarify it is too hard.

People who live in glass towers!  bla bla bla


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Oh so it is easy to make a stupid comment, but to clarify it is too hard.
> 
> People who live in glass towers!  bla bla bla



It's meant to be 6 weeks only, 5weeks left.
That should be adequate. Depends how many nuffys are out there though.

The more there are, the more everyone especially business suffers.

I have to say though, 99% are trying their best. The streets are empty. Just about everyone is keeping their distance.We all know it's the local pub owner that will go broke if don't do it. And for me it's personal as we are friends with the local pub owner. She is doing it tough.


----------



## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> It's meant to be 6 weeks only, 5weeks left.
> That should be adequate. Depends how many nuffys are out there though.
> 
> The more there are, the more everyone especially business suffers.
> ...




It is a virus, it doesn't care about what percentage do the right thing, only takes one to start the spread again.

If people complied, we would have not need for police, locks on our cars and houses.

People be real, instead of believing in fantasies.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> It is a virus, it doesn't care about what percentage do the right thing, only takes one to start the spread again.
> 
> If people complied, we would have not need for police, locks on our cars and houses.
> 
> People be real, instead of believing in fantasies.



We don't. If we had mass resistance then it would fail. Only a few nuffys and even they can't spread it if no one goes near them. 

The nuffys need to careful also. My sister in law would punch them in the face if they tried. She works at on erdely  persons home.

Its worked before. Basic maths.
Which state are you in santoperca?


----------



## qldfrog (12 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> It's meant to be 6 weeks only, 5weeks left.
> That should be adequate. Depends how many nuffys are out there though.
> 
> The more there are, the more everyone especially business suffers.
> ...



If you really appreciate her, you are aware as well that this will be repeated again and again unless a vaccine is found..not a chance but this is the part where i may be wrong,
 or a face saving fake vaccine is released.the earlier the better as long as I am not obliged to get it.
Already articles in sheeple press to say it should be mandatory ..so avoiding the obviously awkward possibility of figures comparing...


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> If you really appreciate her, you are aware as well that this will be repeated again and again unless a vaccine is found..not a chance but this is the part where i may be wrong,
> or a face saving fake vaccine is released.the earlier the better as long as I am not obliged to get it.
> Already articles in sheeple press to say it should be mandatory ..so avoiding the obviously awkward possibility of figures comparing...



The fact is whether you agree with it or not, this is the course taken by the government.    
So we should all do our best.

Politically long term it can't be repeated.

And I don't call it sheepie everyone working to do their best. I call it civil society. You only need to look to the USA to see what the opposite is.


----------



## qldfrog (12 August 2020)

I think everything hang to:
Do you believe a vaccine is possible in a short term aka 2y?
If this is a case, i can ..not always but mostly, believe some of the opinions here from @Smurf1976 ,@Knobby22 @SirRumpole and basically the lockdown etc option taken here.
On the other hand,. If this will not happen..my view but i do not hold a crystal ball..
-  ihope we will all agree that the current decisions are madness just postponing the inevitable.


----------



## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> We don't. If we had mass resistance then it would fail. Only a few nuffys and even they can't spread it if no one goes near them.
> 
> The nuffys need to careful also. My sister in law would punch them in the face if they tried. She works at on erdely  persons home.
> 
> ...



VIC.
I only unerstand 2 things. Numbers and nature.


----------



## qldfrog (12 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> The fact is whether you agree with it or not, this is the course taken by the government.
> So we should all do our best.
> 
> Politically long term it can't be repeated.



Political decision or not , i will not be injected with crap just to please a local Paluchet.
But i wear masks and grossly obey sensible laws etc


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> VIC.
> I only unerstand 2 things. Numbers and nature.



Good. Then you understand why this will work.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Political decision or not , i will not be injected with crap just to please a local Paluchet.
> But i wear masks and grossly obey sensible laws etc



You should judge whether it's crap at the time. You don't know for sure. The British one being tested was developed by the CSIRO and was already in pre development before this occurred.

The University of Queensland vaccine was being developed to cure the common cold before this occurred. 

I agree many are crap, the new Russian one is very likely no good and if all those USA companies were on the right path the USA wouldn't be trying to buy in overseas.

I think it is us that have the technology to solve this at least partially. 

In any case it doesn't matter. This is what we are doing for now. If it doesn't work long term then our leaders look bad. If it does work they will be heroes and some countries will be very angry with their leaders.

The gods roll the dice, they don't ask if you want to be in the game or not.


----------



## cynic (12 August 2020)

Are any of these wondrous vaccines, likely to have sufficient potency, for the resurrection of, those that have needlessly died consequent to Victoria's lockdown lunacy?


----------



## macca (12 August 2020)

In the news, more positive research which will be ignored, wonder why?

Note that again, Zinc is part of a treatment getting results

<<Professor Thomas Borody, a gastroenterologist credited with developing a world-first cure for peptic ulcers, saving countless lives, has stepped up his advocacy for what he believes is the “answer to Australia’s COVID-19 crisis”.

Taken together, Ivermectin – a treatment for head lice that costs as little as $2 – combined with zinc and the antibiotic Doxycycline, could be a “potential lifesaver right now”, Professor Borody said.>>
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...w/news-story/24b930fcec5e4ef33127b13d4356b0aa


----------



## wayneL (12 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> The fact is whether you agree with it or not, this is the course taken by the government.
> So we should all do our best.
> 
> Politically long term it can't be repeated.
> ...



Good point.

There is nothing wrong with us as a civil society practising good common sense measures to avoid infection. I really do think that a government program to promote good common sense measures based on science would have been extremely warranted.

Chocking down chicks because they don't have a mask on is fekin bulshit (notwithstanding that she gave the copper the finger), and I think will have the opposite effect, ie creating distrust in the government, their agents and their motives.

As I am moving through my clientele the main topic of discussion is, of course, covid-19. 

I see two camps based broadly on either fight or flight.

1/ the flight camp basically recoils in horror, recedes in to their homes and wants the government to impose totalitarian and draconian lockdowns to ensure their own safety (and disregards the well-being of everybody else on all levels)

These people disregard the importance of a functioning economy and regard their short-term safety as paramount, ignoring long-term consequences.

2/ The fight camp, who quite rightly is suspect of the overall agenda, is willing to examine the data dispassionately and face up to the reality of what is not a very dangerous virus, except for those few people who do have comorbidities.

These people understand the importance of a functioning economy and the importance of mitigating long-term consequences.

This matches my observations of lower order mammals which I am intimately acquainted with, vis-a-vis, equines.

Life is better for those equines who do not succumb to the flight response, their lives being more harmonious with  their situation and consequently their life span longer and more congruent with their goal of avoiding stress and achieving happiness

The flight camp only creates injury for itself but also creates a stress response, excess cortisol. But only does this increase the opportunity for physical injury but also metabolic and physiological malaise.

The fearful are unhealthy by an order of several magnitudes.

I think fox like Benjamin Franklin understood this when he (and others) devised their great quotations viz, "those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither"


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2020)

I sort of agree but people who are in the lockdown like me think they are sacrificing short term liberty to gain long term liberty and look to South Korea, New Zealand, WA and QLD as examples.

Short term pain for long term gain.
Maybe there will be no vaccine so long term might end up as pain also but we shall see. 

Even Sweden though will have plenty of long term pain as only s small fraction of the people have caught it so far though if s vaccine is not found their overall pain will be a little less.


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## SirRumpole (12 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> There is nothing wrong with us as a civil society practising good common sense measures to avoid infection. I really do think that a government program to promote good common sense measures based on science would have been extremely warranted.




I respect your views wayne, as long as you say the same if you or a member if your family, elderly or not , contracts this virus and dies. Joe Blow said not to bring family members into this discussion, fair enough, but this is really what it comes down to for many families who have lost their loved ones. I sincerely hope it doesn't happen to you or anyone else here, but why should we be exempt from the illness that a lot of others are suffering from ?


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## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

In comparison:
There were 1.2 million hospitalisations where cardiovascular disease (CVD) was recorded as the principal or additional diagnosis in 2017–18, according to the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW) National Hospital Morbidity Database. This represents 11% of all hospitalisations in Australia. Note that hospitalisation data presented here are based on admitted patient episodes of care, including multiple events experienced by the same individual.


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## satanoperca (12 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I respect your views wayne, as long as you say the same if you or a member if your family, elderly or not , contracts this virus and dies. Joe Blow said not to bring family members into this discussion, fair enough, but this is really what it comes down to for many families who have lost their loved ones. I sincerely hope it doesn't happen to you or anyone else here, but why should we be exempt from the illness that a lot of others are suffering from ?




Sorry, but in the grand scheme of things or relevant to Aus population, 23,000 is not a lot.

Again, you being over dramatic again.


----------



## Knobby22 (12 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Are any of these wondrous vaccines, likely to have sufficient potency, for the resurrection of, those that have needlessly died consequent to Victoria's lockdown lunacy?



Its all numbers. Numbers lost vs numbers gained. Less car accidents, more suicides, less flu deaths, more covid deaths.



macca said:


> In the news, more positive research which will be ignored, wonder why?
> 
> Note that again, Zinc is part of a treatment getting results
> 
> ...




Sounds good. don't think anything is being ignored. Billions of dollars are being thrown around in desperation particularly from the USA. If the cure comes from left field the result is the same, heaps of lives saved from lockdown.

He didn't invent the cure for peptic ulcurs though, Barry Marshall did. Barry is a Bluddy genius.
Secondly he has got funding for testing despite other specialists (in the same article) poo pooing him, thirdly I don't know why he thinks an antibiotic would help against a virus ?. He sounds very suss to me, he is making money though.


----------



## DB008 (12 August 2020)

Great article

*Moderna Wants to Transform the Body*
*Into a Vaccine-Making Machine*​Almost every antiviral vaccine ever sold works in a similar way: A dead or weakened virus, or a piece of one, is introduced into a healthy person. The weakened virus stimulates the immune system to generate antibodies, protecting the person when the real pathogen threatens to infect them.

Over the decades, this tried-and-true approach has vanquished polio, eradicated smallpox, and reined in chicken pox, measles, and mumps. But vaccine production has never been simple or fast. Many flu vaccines are still grown in chicken eggs. Newer approaches draw on genetic engineering to eliminate the need for whole viruses, but their viral proteins are still grown inside live cells.

The coronavirus vaccines from Moderna Inc., in Cambridge, Mass., and its German rival mR, and its German rival BioNTech SE propose to immunize people in a radically different way: by harnessing human cells to become miniature vaccine factories in their own right. Instead of virus proteins, the vaccines contain genetic instructions that prompt the body to produce them. Those instructions are carried via messenger RNA, or mRNA.

Moderna’s mRNA-1273 consists of a strand of mRNA that tells the body to produce the spike protein the coronavirus uses to latch onto human cells. The strand is like one side of a zipper; the “teeth” are a sequence of chemical letters that cells read to produce the 1,273 amino acids that make up the spike protein. If the vaccine works as intended, the body will start producing the proteins soon after injection, prompting the immune system to react and build up protective antibodies against them.

The great advantages of mRNA vaccines are speed and flexibility. No finicky live cells or hard-to-handle viruses are needed, and the basic chemistry is straightforward. Moderna’s vaccine reached Phase I human trials on March 16, only 63 days after the company began developing it. And at 6:43 a.m. on July 27, the first volunteer in Moderna’s 30,000-person, final-stage efficacy trial in the U.S. received an injection. Less than 12 hours later, BioNTech and its partner, late-stage trial, a study that will be conducted in the U.S., Brazil, and several other countries. They took advantage of mRNA’s rapid-response capability to create four slightly different vaccines, which they compared in initial trials before selecting the best one for large-scale testing.

In Phase I trials, both the Moderna and BioNTech-Pfizer vaccines stimulated people’s immune systems to produce antibodies that neutralized the virus in lab experiments, a positive initial sign. “This is a relatively new platform, but it is looking quite good,” $955 million from the U.S. government to support its coronavirus trials.

How well mRNA vaccines will actually prevent Covid-19 remains unknown. No vaccine based on messenger RNA has ever been approved for any disease, or even entered final-stage trials until now, so there’s little published human data to compare how mRNA stacks up against older technologies. And the vaccines have hardly been free of side effects: In Moderna’s Phase I trial, all 15 of the patients who received the median of three dose sizes reported at least one side effect, though none were severe. Three of the 15 patients at the highest dose had temporary severe reactions. That dosage won’t be tested further.

Still, the accumulating data has some mRNA skeptics warming to the technology. “I don’t see the reason for focusing on mRNA vaccines. I don’t get that,” Peter Jay Hotez, dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, said in an interview in early June. “The old-fashioned vaccines may do a better job.” In late July he said his opinion had shifted based on encouraging monkey and human trial results. Moderna’s vaccine “is showing promise,” he said. “There is enough of a glimmer to warrant continuing its clinical development and progressing to larger clinical trials.”

The possibility of a Covid-19 shot has led investors to more than triple the value of Moderna’s shares this year, giving the company a market capitalization of about $28 billion, an astonishing number for a company with no products. BioNTech shares have more than doubled. A third company with an mRNA-based Covid-19 shot, CureVac AG, has said it’s considering an initial public offering. Both Stéphane Bancel, Moderna’s chief executive officer, and Ugur Sahin, his less flashy counterpart at BioNTech, have become multibillionaires.​

More on link below...

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-moderna-biontech-covid-shot/?srnd=prognosis


.​


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## Smurf1976 (12 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Do you believe a vaccine is possible in a short term aka 2y?
> If this is a case, i can ..not always but mostly, believe some of the opinions here from @Smurf1976 ,@Knobby22 @SirRumpole and basically the lockdown etc option taken here.



Summarising my thoughts in brief since I've been mentioned:

1. The virus is not of itself a good thing. Nobody anywhere actually wanted it. I think we can all agree on that - nobody 12 months ago was saying we really need a pandemic.

2. From a purely medical perspective elimination is the ideal outcome. See point above - nobody actually wants to have it and nobody's arguing that it's a desirable thing as such.

3. _In theory _elimination is possible so long as the virus is something which is carried by humans and lives for relatively short periods, days at most, on other surfaces. Keep the humans away from other humans, make sure they don't touch things which other humans touch, and it should die out. _In theory_.

4. It is inevitable that there will be another pandemic. This one _seems_ to be mild in terms of the death rate and so on but the next one may well be drastically worse. As such, if it turns out that we cannot in practice eliminate this one then it would be foolish in the extreme to return to "business as usual" without heeding the message that we're sitting ducks for future pandemics with no means to contain them. Doing so would be essentially gambling with the very existence of the species and outright negligent in view of the present situation.

5. Noted that the long term effects are unknown. They may or may not be of significance but nobody can say for sure that there are not serious implications. For example not one child has yet been born to a mother who was infected during pregnancy and lived long enough to determine any ill effects on that child. We're flying blind.

Putting all that together, my basic thought is that there's a large cost either way. A lockdown and elimination means a big cost right now. Not eliminating and accepting that we can't contain a pandemic means permanent change which will bring permanent economic costs. 

There's no "free" option but elimination is the only outcome which enables an actual return to 2019 business as usual. Anything less rationally means permanent change and that isn't cheap.


----------



## qldfrog (13 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Summarising my thoughts in brief since I've been mentioned:
> 
> 1. The virus is not of itself a good thing. Nobody anywhere actually wanted it. I think we can all agree on that - nobody 12 months ago was saying we really need a pandemic.
> 
> ...



If the world was Australia maybe, but we are not the world.there are suggestions that the NZ resurgence came from OS imports...
Elimination is a pipe dream or are we suggesting we do not export import anything and have no boat or plane landing here..?
If so i should rush to get out quickly, there are a limited number of aircraft boats available here...
People are raising emotions against facts.that is the issue and the cause of so much manipulation.
Of course we do not want it, of course it is nasty but whether we like it or not, it is here spreading all across the planet and i do not wish to see 10k aussies dying in aged care, but sadly they will.next month next year in 2years.unless you believe in a vaccine
People believe in gods so why not!
When treatments exists, they are bypassed and prevention is neglected..aka boost in vitD ,warmer is better, airflow in buildings etc
What hope do we have...


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> If the world was Australia maybe, but we are not the world.there are suggestions that the NZ resurgence came from OS imports...
> Elimination is a pipe dream or are we suggesting we do not export import anything and have no boat or plane landing here..?




If we're saying that elimination isn't possible then realistically we're in for permanent change in the way things are done and ultimately that's global not simply Australian.

That's the logical step since the recent past approach did rely upon the notion that anything which came up with disease would be able to be suppressed. If that idea is shattered well then it has some pretty significant consequences.

International travel looks somewhat stuffed either way really. I think that's the point being missed - no option offers a prompt return to 2019, the question's what happens in the long term?

Prove we can eradicate and go back to "normal"?

Accept that we can't eradicate and permanently change now that the rug's been pulled from under that assumption?

For the record I think the latter's far more likely so in that sense I am agreeing with you - it probably won't be eradicated. 

No eradication however rationally means no return to the 2019 version of "normal". We'll have people traveling, but not without greatly increased cost, medical checks and so on and that'll be permanent with the end result of vastly lower travel volumes in practice due to higher costs and the taking on of an unisurable risk that will deter many.

Just my thoughts, I do acknowledge I could be wrong.


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## sptrawler (13 August 2020)

That is the whole point smurf, if we are to island ourselves, what do we really lose other than overseas travellers money? Very little.
We as a country have in reality very little income from overseas money, I would be very surprised if more money isn't spent by Australian's going overseas, than tourists coming here.
So if people could just pull their heads in and contain the outbreak here, then businesses could get back to some sort of normal operation and the economy could open up more.
Take for example W.A, businesses in country W.A are having the best year ever, because everyone is holidaying at home.
If Victorians hadn't been such dicks, they would no doubt be up in Queensland, why everyone is making it out to be such an economic disaster is BS.
If they can turn the outbreak down to minimal and quarantine people coming in, the economy should open up, just overseas travellers will be minimal.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> We as a country have in reality very little income from overseas money, I would be very surprised if more money isn't spent by Australian's going overseas, than tourists coming here.




Most recent pre-pandemic statistics I could find show that yes, tourism is a net loss in that imports (Australians traveling overseas) exceed exports.

It's a valuable 'export' only in the context that it's better to have people coming here than not coming if we assume that Australians traveling overseas would continue regardless. Stop it in both directions and that changes.

Obviously I'd rather have everything back to normal most certainly but a fully functional domestic economy where people could at least go about their normal day to day lives, move around the country and so on would sure beat what we've got right now.

From a tourism perspective, well I'm sure there's plenty of people in Australia who haven't even visited each state, at all, and they certainly haven't been to every place that has something worth seeing.

Australians' knowledge of their own country isn't particularly great. Many would struggle to name anywhere in WA that isn't Perth or a mining town for example and many wouldn't recognise a photo of the Adelaide skyline if they were shown it. They'd be shocked to find that Bourke has sealed roads and shops and so on.

That's not saying that international travel isn't a desirable thing, it's just being pragmatic as I see it under the circumstances.


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## sptrawler (13 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Most recent pre-pandemic statistics I could find show that yes, tourism is a net loss in that imports (Australians traveling overseas) exceed exports.
> 
> It's a valuable 'export' only in the context that it's better to have people coming here than not coming if we assume that Australians traveling overseas would continue regardless. Stop it on both directions and that changes.
> 
> ...



Precisely.


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## qldfrog (13 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Most recent pre-pandemic statistics I could find show that yes, tourism is a net loss in that imports (Australians traveling overseas) exceed exports.
> 
> It's a valuable 'export' only in the context that it's better to have people coming here than not coming if we assume that Australians traveling overseas would continue regardless. Stop it in both directions and that changes.
> 
> ...



Sadly, this is a picture of hell for me, I usually get hitchy feet if I spend more than 2 y wo O/S travel..well past the due time now, not so much for the landscape, but history/culture/language/food..
Are we going to end up like a USA but in worse?
I can not realistically and willingly live the rest of my life in that future if I have the choice, nor should any 20 or 30y old who will not even feel any effect of the covid.
Imagine the brain drain if this happens
note that I have traveled very widely in Australia, probably only part missing is f WA and  Northern/western side of NT. Trip planned to North of Cairns based on personal circumstances


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## qldfrog (13 August 2020)

As for tourism import weight, let's be honest: we should add the so called education sector (fee paying foreign students in our unis and barista courses) and backpacker economic input;
all that would vanish


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## qldfrog (13 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> As for tourism import weight, let's be honest: we should add the so called education sector (fee paying foreign students in our unis and barista courses) and backpacker economic input;
> all that would vanish



and I say *would*, but should probably say *will*


----------



## Knobby22 (13 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> T
> If Victorians hadn't been such dicks, they would no doubt be up in Queensland, why everyone is making it out to be such an economic disaster is BS.
> .



Hey we are not....oh yea, carry on.


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## bellenuit (13 August 2020)

Did the UK do a big revision down overnight?

According to Worldometers their number of cases increased approximately 1,000 overnight, but their number of deaths fell from 46,628 to 41,329 , or per million deaths 686 to 608.


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## satanoperca (13 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If Victorians hadn't been such dicks, they would no doubt be up in Queensland, why everyone is making it out to be such an economic disaster is BS.



Can you please provide some intellect to the conversation.

Really, let see overtime if you QLD's are as immune to stupidity as us Victorian's.

Really, need to think about what you say, before you say it, ah!


----------



## cynic (13 August 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Did the UK do a big revision down overnight?
> 
> According to Worldometers their number of cases increased approximately 1,000 overnight, but their number of deaths fell from 46,628 to 41,329 , or per million deaths 686 to 608.



https://www.ft.com/content/f51d161d-86c7-40cd-a5f6-cb72ab52b026

Edit:May need to google search to see above linked article without subscription.
Alternatively: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...oll-in-england-revised-down-by-more-than-5000


----------



## basilio (14 August 2020)

This was totally avoidable. 

*Qantas and Virgin knew the Ruby Princess was a coronavirus time bomb but were powerless to stop it*
When TV networks beamed vision of passengers disembarking the Ruby Princess on the morning of March 19, airline executives were horrified.

Key points:

Airline bosses repeatedly had to ask Border Force whether they were flying Ruby Princess passengers
In the days after the ship docked, dozens of coronavirus cases flew from Sydney around Australia
Some Qantas crew were distressed at the prospect of working with Ruby Princess passengers
They, like most Australians, had heard the whispers the cruise ship was carrying COVID-19.

The Ruby Princess did indeed have passengers with COVID-19, although this wasn't confirmed until the day after it berthed at the Sydney Overseas Passenger Terminal.

But airlines were not wanting to take any chances. They had seen the Diamond Princess disaster unfold in Japan — an incident that saw more than 700 of the 3,711 people on board infected and 14 die from the virus.

Of course, the airlines could not have known the Ruby Princess would turn out to be even worse than its sister ship: 662 infections and at least 21 attributable
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...s-qantas-virgin-manifest-coronavirus/12550558


----------



## wayneL (14 August 2020)

Can anyone confirm or deny?


----------



## satanoperca (14 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Can anyone confirm or deny?





F---kout, I hope this is not true. If it is this is the biggest scam in history, designed to create fear and control.


----------



## Knobby22 (14 August 2020)

Saw someone in their twenties died of it yesterday in Victoria.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> F---kout, I hope this is not true. If it is this is the biggest scam in history, designed to create fear and control.



Thanks for the post @satanoperca 

Absolute bøllox. Lotsa nutters out there.

Conspiracy theorist. Fact check is below. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...-aged-care-coronavirus-payment-death/12554278

gg


----------



## basilio (14 August 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks for the post @satanoperca
> 
> Absolute bøllox. Lotsa nutters out there.
> 
> ...




Indeed.  And it doesn't take much to check it out - if one wants to do so as distinct from just  uncritically passing on stuff they find on the net.

Of course doing a fact check suggest one believes such authorities and the whole point of being a conspiracy theorist nutter is  -* not believing authorities because they are in on the conspiracy aren't they !*


----------



## bellenuit (14 August 2020)




----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Can anyone confirm or deny?




Sorry, I thought it was @satanoperca 's post.

Reply above.

gg


----------



## bellenuit (14 August 2020)

*Emails from Sweden's Fauci Reveal Discussions About Now-Failed Plan to Reach 'Herd Immunity'*

*https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-ema...an-giesecke-herd-immunity-coronavirus-1524847*


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> F---kout, I hope this is not true. If it is this is the biggest scam in history, designed to create fear and control.



If ticking a box gets someone a free funeral then reality is that rather a lot of people are going to tick that box even if whatever it signifies is outright nonsense.


----------



## moXJO (14 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Can anyone confirm or deny?




This happened in qld. But that was during the early stages and to justify border closure. The guy was labelled a "Covid death" even though his wife called bs. It wasn't until much later that it was revealed that he didn't in fact have it. And yes its all verifiable.

Similar events in US.


----------



## moXJO (14 August 2020)

bellenuit said:


>




Did Sweden stimulate their economy?
Or any of the others for that matter?


----------



## Knobby22 (14 August 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *Emails from Sweden's Fauci Reveal Discussions About Now-Failed Plan to Reach 'Herd Immunity'*
> 
> *https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-ema...an-giesecke-herd-immunity-coronavirus-1524847*



It's interesting he now regrets the action and says he would have acted like Norway in hindsight.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 August 2020)

For all this discussion about European countries it'll be interesting to see what happens over the coming months noting that they're approaching the end of summer now.


----------



## IFocus (14 August 2020)

Hearing today about the vaccine being tested local now there are concerns with the virus not only mutating but changing over time to be as lethal or worse than the 1st SARs outbreak.

Apparently the changes being seen are a real problem.

Hoping there are smart enough people working on this to solve the problem.


----------



## satanoperca (14 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Hearing today about the vaccine being tested local now there are concerns with the virus not only mutating but changing over time to be as lethal or worse than the 1st SARs outbreak.
> 
> Apparently the changes being seen are a real problem.
> 
> Hoping there are smart enough people working on this to solve the problem.




Are you serious. Have you not read anything about vaccines and viruses.
Please before you post the obvious. Research please


----------



## macca (14 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Hearing today about the vaccine being tested local now there are concerns with the virus not only mutating but changing over time to be as lethal or worse than the 1st SARs outbreak.
> 
> Apparently the changes being seen are a real problem.
> 
> Hoping there are smart enough people working on this to solve the problem.




That is the problem with viruses, they mutate often which is why many in the medical world are calling BS on the vaccine mania.

The current wave of Covid in NSW has been identified as the one from Melbourne, so that indicates that the one in NSW before was in fact different from the one in Vic.

It was claimed that the virus in Europe was different to the one in the USA

We have had 100 years to get a working vaccine for the flu and we still can only achieve about 33% immunity most years ( research shows that Vitamin D achieves the same as well)

The flu vaccine success rates can vary from state to state and city to city apparently.

Get some sun and eat some oysters, Vitamin D and Zinc, seem to be firming up as the most successful defence.


----------



## bellenuit (14 August 2020)




----------



## IFocus (14 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Are you serious. Have you not read anything about vaccines and viruses.
> Please before you post the obvious. Research please




Aah no maybe I worded it poorly the mutations were as you say well known (if thats what you mean) the way the virus changes are not there is a difference that being we end up with something that will kill a lot more people than the current mutations changes can.

It was being compared to getting to kill 10% of infection cases.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (14 August 2020)

A proper vaccine ain't going to happen for at least 12 months, if not longer. 

Then there will be problems with distribution, prioritising first recipients and cost. 

And then some silly bastard will neck a bat and we will have Covid-21.

Our best chance in my opinion is to minimise spread, maximise safe opening of economies while protecting the vulnerable and maintaining healthcare staffing, PPE and other medical assets. It's a difficult dance.

gg


----------



## wayneL (15 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> This happened in qld. But that was during the early stages and to justify border closure. The guy was labelled a "Covid death" even though his wife called bs. It wasn't until much later that it was revealed that he didn't in fact have it. And yes its all verifiable.
> 
> Similar events in US.



UK deaths are being revised down for the same reason also.


----------



## basilio (15 August 2020)




----------



## basilio (15 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> UK deaths are being revised down for the same reason also.




Which means  exactly... what ? 

There has always been a rubberiness around working out the deaths caused directly/indirectly from COVID 19. From Day One there have been concerns that many people have died in  nursing homes or at home from COVID but did not form part of the official  figures.

There have been repeated efforts to use overall  excess death rates in a country as  a clearer indication of COVID deaths than just the day to day hospital deaths.


----------



## moXJO (15 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Which means  exactly... what ?
> 
> There has always been a rubberiness around working out the deaths caused directly/indirectly from COVID 19. From Day One there have been concerns that many people have died in  nursing homes or at home from COVID but did not form part of the official  figures.
> 
> There have been repeated efforts to use overall  excess death rates in a country as  a clearer indication of COVID deaths than just the day to day hospital deaths.



Media driven coved death figures were not correct in Australia. They were then politicised and used to lock down states. I didn't have a problem with lockdowns up to a point. 

I am at a loss as why the figures need to be fudged at all.


----------



## wayneL (15 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Which means  exactly... what ?
> 
> There has always been a rubberiness around working out the deaths caused directly/indirectly from COVID 19. From Day One there have been concerns that many people have died in  nursing homes or at home from COVID but did not form part of the official  figures.
> 
> There have been repeated efforts to use overall  excess death rates in a country as  a clearer indication of COVID deaths than just the day to day hospital deaths.



We all know rhat covid deaths have been highly politicized, especially by the toxic left, your mob basilio.

it means but it seems there has been a little bit of over enthusiasm for attributing covid deaths.

Look man, we all want accurate figures that represent the true picture so that the responses of our society can be appropriate. Therefore, it is right to ascertain whether the figures we are given are accurate, from both sides of the argument.

If there are questions, then the questions must be answered honestly without indulging your sort of muck raking and character assassination bulshit.

So calm down and let people get to the bottom of it.


----------



## basilio (15 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> Media driven coved death figures were not correct in Australia. They were then politicised and used to lock down states. I didn't have a problem with lockdowns up to a point.
> 
> I am at a loss as why the figures need to be fudged at all.




The COVID death figures are not "media driven" . They come from the best available  analysis at the time. Doesn't mean its perfect or not capable of being improved. It is an impossible challenge to identify exactly who has passed away and when across a country and get all the figures  right. Thats why there are  reassessments. 

The figures weren't fudged MoX. If anything the real deaths attributable to COVID have not been reflected in the official tolls because they havn't been able to  properly account for deaths at home or in aged care centres. They were hospital based figures. As has been pointed out repeatedly analysis of overall excess deaths in a country is a more accurate way to assess the impact of COVID.


----------



## basilio (15 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> So calm down and let people get to the bottom of it.




Sweet mate .
Can we look forward to fact based discussions from now on can we ?


----------



## IFocus (15 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Which means  exactly... what ?
> 
> There has always been a rubberiness around working out the deaths caused directly/indirectly from COVID 19. From Day One there have been concerns that many people have died in  nursing homes or at home from COVID but did not form part of the official  figures.
> 
> There have been repeated efforts to use overall  excess death rates in a country as  a clearer indication of COVID deaths than just the day to day hospital deaths.




Did the deaths from the 2000 plus virus breakouts in care homes end up being counted?

"excess death rates in a country as  a clearer indication"

Correct.

The quibble over death rates seem to be another smoke screen for its no big deal open up the economy.

On another note really surprised that Sweden's Department head for looking after the virus actually lied about heard immunity.
And if the emails are correct staggered at his lack of knowledge regarding infectious disease rate of spread.


----------



## basilio (15 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> We all know rhat covid deaths have been highly politicized, especially by the toxic left, your mob basilio.




Just a little curious here Wayne...

Are you proposing that the daily COVID figures  coming from medical compilations are just highly politicized figures constructed by the toxic left ?

Or does it just sound  that way because of how you put it ?


----------



## spooly74 (15 August 2020)

bellenuit said:


>




Fanboy Edgelords ....lol
Comparison to the rest of Europe?
Spain down 19%?


----------



## wayneL (15 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Just a little curious here Wayne...
> 
> Are you proposing that the daily COVID figures  coming from medical compilations are just highly politicized figures constructed by the toxic left ?
> 
> Or does it just sound  that way because of how you put it ?



Bas, if you're going to construct strawman arguments, try to do it intelligently and not so obviously Kathy Newmanesque... ie not so intentionally stupid.

Clearly there have been problems in the collations of the figures. If they are wrong, that's correct them, that's not politicize them for the benefit of any particular agenda.

I know Alinsky instructs you otherwise but do try to have discussions on the basis of what is actually going on.


----------



## basilio (15 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Bas, if you're going to construct strawman arguments, try to do it intelligently and not so obviously Kathy Newmanesque... ie not so intentionally stupid.
> 
> Clearly there have been problems in the collations of the figures. If they are wrong, that's correct them, that's not politicize them for the benefit of any particular agenda.
> 
> I know Alinsky instructs you otherwise but do try to have discussions on the basis of what is actually going on.




I didn't start this discussion with the following statement Wayne
_We all know rhat covid deaths have been highly politicized, especially by the toxic left, your mob basilio._

So lets be abundantly clear about who is is trying to smear who in this zoo. 

I think it is always worthwhile getting accurate on COVID cases, deaths, other consequences and most importantly how we deal with a disastrous rapidly changing pandemic.

*Having said that for the life of me I can't see how I or you or a thousand other key board warriors have the experience, skills and breadth of knowledge that epidemiological scientists bring to the table.
*
It is their expertise I acknowledge and support in this situation. The broad situation of a possible pandemic and how to respond to it has been understood by scientists for years.  In that sense WHO was an international scientific body tasked with (trying) to ensure an effective world wide response.

The decision by the current US President to undermine this international body as well as undermining the US response to the pandemic and encouraging like minded leaders and followers  to  ignore the consequences of this foreseeable disaster is utterly criminal.  The ongoing support for such an approach represents some of the worst elements of anti science, anti fact based thinking we currently experience.


----------



## moXJO (15 August 2020)

basilio said:


> The COVID death figures are not "media driven" . They come from the best available  analysis at the time. Doesn't mean its perfect or not capable of being improved. It is an impossible challenge to identify exactly who has passed away and when across a country and get all the figures  right. Thats why there are  reassessments.
> 
> The figures weren't fudged MoX. If anything the real deaths attributable to COVID have not been reflected in the official tolls because they havn't been able to  properly account for deaths at home or in aged care centres. They were hospital based figures. As has been pointed out repeatedly analysis of overall excess deaths in a country is a more accurate way to assess the impact of COVID.



Nathan Turners family would argue otherwise. He was directly used by media hysteria and the qld government despite the family and friends saying it was BS. They fought hard on social media. A lot of people clued on
It went on for a while, I thought I posted this earlier on as well?

Anyway easier to apologise after you get your way I suppose.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06...han-turner-false-positive-blackwater/12308080

The point is, yes their is some suspect activity for unknown reasons.


----------



## wayneL (15 August 2020)

What was wrong with the opening statement? It is the absolute truth.

Look how the Komrades are distorting the Sweden narrative. Look at the project fear in MSM. 

I merely advocate dispassionately looking at the data, no politicisation, no project fear, just the actual reality. On the other hand you and your ilk have no desire to do the same, oweing the stated aims up organisations such as the sinister @ssclowns at WEF.

My language maybe a little colourful but that does not take away from the facts.


----------



## moXJO (15 August 2020)

Here's a UK article on covid being used or not used as cause of death. 
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...milies-of-the-dead-still-wonder-was-it-covid/

I just think its a bit blind to say covid isn't being used as a political tool.


----------



## satanoperca (15 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> I just think its a bit blind to say covid isn't being used as a political tool.




I would be a little bit more foreright, if you don't think we are being played by our political masters, you are STUPID.

Dan the man saying that if us Victorians are lucky, we might be able to enjoy xmas dinner with our family and friends, how about f---kyou Dan, we are not in China.


----------



## basilio (15 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> *I merely advocate dispassionately looking at the data, no politicisation, no project fear, just the actual reality*. On the other hand you and your ilk have no desire to do the same, oweing the stated aims up organisations such as the sinister @ssclowns at WEF.




Indeed. Certainly the approach that all people of science would advocate.

In the case of COVID 19 we have in fact excellent data on the infectiousness, and effects of the disease. We also have data on what sort of efforts are required to control its spread and hence impact on the community. The ongoing WIKI entry on the disease lays it all out. 
Well worth taking it in .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic


----------



## wayneL (16 August 2020)

Ah Wikipedia, the font of all knowledge.

Wiki simply parrots the sources I'm referring to.


----------



## basilio (16 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Ah Wikipedia, the font of all knowledge.
> 
> Wiki simply parrots the sources I'm referring to.




And which sources are these Wayne ? The medical community ? Noted epidemiologists ? Organisations that have been  researching corona viruses for years ?


----------



## IFocus (16 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> Here's a UK article on covid being used or not used as cause of death.
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...milies-of-the-dead-still-wonder-was-it-covid/
> 
> I just think its a bit blind to say covid isn't being used as a political tool.




Mo did you read that its about under counting deaths caused by covid and I did not see a political link just mistakes caused by an over worked system and stressed people.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> I just think its a bit blind to say covid isn't being used as a political tool.




No doubt about that one and it's coming from both sides.

A certain company best known for limiting the news as been incredibly blatant of late with their anti-government stuff in Victoria. They haven't really even tried to hide it with their "Kmart mums........" style of one sided reporting of things that aren't news anywhere else.

On the other hand, well if someone's about to fall off their perch anyway and COVID-19 brings that forward by a week well then it's technically correct but rather misleading to count them as part of the pandemic death toll.

The whole identity politics and politicisation of everything is a big part of the trouble with all this. By its very nature that pushes a proper scientific approach out the window and replaces it with politics.

Sydney having water restrictions whilst the dams overflow is another example of such nonsense. I kid you not, that's exactly the situation right now and it's another manifestation of the same basic issue.

Back in ye olde days we had actual experts on such matters in the Public Service and politicians left them to get on with it, their role being limited to the approval of major out of the ordinary expenditure and things like that. We had far less nonsense back then.......


----------



## SirRumpole (16 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Back in ye olde days we had actual experts on such matters in the Public Service and politicians left them to get on with it, their role being limited to the approval of major out of the ordinary expenditure and things like that. We had far less nonsense back then.......




That was before politicians saw politics not as a public service but a way to get a cushy job on the board of a large company, and to do that they had to "reorganise" (sorry "reform") their department in a way that suited their future employers, in other words privatise it.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Mo did you read that its about under counting deaths caused by covid and I did not see a political link just mistakes caused by an over worked system and stressed people.



Here's what's going on apparently:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

The only bit that matters:

*It is true, however, that the government will pay more to hospitals for COVID-19 cases in two senses: By paying an additional 20% on top of traditional Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients during the public health emergency, and by reimbursing hospitals for treating the uninsured patients with the disease (at that enhanced Medicare rate).


*
Possible that its similar here.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> No doubt about that one and it's coming from both sides.



I agree. 
Social media seems to be aflame (here) with political battles which makes me wonder how many foreign agents are stoking the fires.

Its either smashing Dan Andrews or "Scotty from marketing" (I don't know why people think that's clever). Unfortunately cancel culture has caught on over here as well.


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2020)

Well at last, someone has stood up and taken responsibility, I guess the Federal Government and border force will get an apology.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...servedly-over-ruby-princess-handling/12564830
From the article:
Premier Gladys Berejiklian has apologised "unreservedly" for the "unimaginable loss" suffered by people because of NSW Health's handling of the coronavirus outbreak on the Ruby Princess cruise ship.
A report handed to the NSW Government on Friday identified "serious", "inexcusable" and "inexplicable" oversights by NSW Health.
*Key points:*

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian has responded to the Special Commission of Inquiry report which was delivered on Friday
She said the situation would "never happen again"
There have been 663 COVID-19 cases linked to the Ruby Princess and 28 deaths


----------



## moXJO (17 August 2020)

anyone see putins Facebook?


----------



## basilio (18 August 2020)

Cautiously good news in  Victoria...

*Victorian coronavirus cases rise by 222 as state records 17 further COVID-19 deaths*

Victoria has recorded 222 new coronavirus cases, the third consecutive day of numbers below 300.
The state has recorded 17 further deaths from COVID-19.
Today's new case numbers are the lowest in a month, since Victoria recorded 217 new cases on July 18.
The state's death toll now stands at 351, which accounts for about 80 per cent of Australia's coronavirus deaths.
For the latest news on the COVID-19 pandemic read our coronavirus live blog.
Head of the Kirby Institute biosecurity program, Raina MacIntyre, said it was "really great to see" today's drop in new case numbers.
"I think the Victorian Government has done a really good job under very, very difficult circumstances and clearly the epidemic there has peaked and the numbers are coming down," Professor MacIntyre told ABC Radio Melbourne.
"Hopefully it will be a week or so before we see those numbers down to the double digits."
But she said more needed to be done to prevent health workers from contracting the disease.
"It's a really urgent issue that needs to be addressed. Health workers all over Australia are really distressed," she said.
As of yesterday, Victoria still had more than 1,000 active cases in healthcare workers.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...rise-by-222-and-17-more-covid-deaths/12568122


----------



## basilio (18 August 2020)

*Victoria's coronavirus crisis traced back to seven returned travellers, hotel quarantine inquiry told*

Ninety per cent of Victoria's current coronavirus cases can be traced back to a family of four that returned to Australia and stayed in Melbourne's Rydges on Swanston hotel, according to a key witness at an inquiry probing the failures of the state's hotel quarantine program.

..Dr Alpren said there were two smaller outbreaks which originated at the Stamford Plaza Hotel — one from a man who returned to Australia on June 1, and another from a couple who landed on June 11.

"I know of no links between cases in the Rydges hotel outbreak and cases involved in the Stamford Plaza outbreak," Dr Alpren said.

*"It is likely that a high proportion, approximately 99 per cent of current cases of COVID-19 in Victoria have arisen from Rydges or Stamford."*
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...ced-back-to-seven-travellers-inquiry/12568408


----------



## satanoperca (18 August 2020)

basilio said:


> *Victoria's coronavirus crisis traced back to seven returned travellers, hotel quarantine inquiry told*
> 
> Ninety per cent of Victoria's current coronavirus cases can be traced back to a family of four that returned to Australia and stayed in Melbourne's Rydges on Swanston hotel, according to a key witness at an inquiry probing the failures of the state's hotel quarantine program.
> 
> ...




Time for Dan the man and his party to go.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Time for Dan the man and his party to go.




Victoria has fixed 4 year terms with the next election set for November 2022. It's a pretty sure bet than Dan won't resign before then.

But yes, he or someone in his government stuffed up hotel quarantine and if an election was held today he may lose, but he's got 2 years to make up for his government's mistakes.


----------



## satanoperca (18 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Victoria has fixed 4 year terms with the next election set for November 2022. It's a pretty sure bet than Dan won't resign before then.
> 
> But yes, he or someone in his government stuffed up hotel quarantine and if an election was held today he may lose, but he's got 2 years to make up for his government's mistakes.




Stuffed up, really, how about destroyed the entire economy.


----------



## sptrawler (18 August 2020)

Hydroxychloroquine, can't seem to stay out of the news.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political...or-quietly-reverses-course-hydroxychloroquine
From the article:
_The reversal by Walz, a first-term Democrat, clears the way for doctors to prescribe hydroxychloroquine, a drug commonly used to treat malaria and other conditions but one the FDA has declined to recommend for COVID-19 treatment.
_
*The decision is the latest development in the weird saga of arguably the most divisive drug in modern history.*
_
The acrimony began in March after President Trump tweeted that hydroxychloroquine had the potential to be “one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine” as a treatment for the coronavirus. 

The tweet and similar statements *provoked an avalanche of media criticism, with many claiming that the president was going to get people killed. *Critics pointed out that medical evidence suggests the medication is linked to a fatal arrhythmia and some trials show no benefits in coronavirus treatments.

*Though his critics are likely loath to admit it, there’s reason to believe the president may have been on to something. *In recent weeks a chorus of voices in the medical community has emerged to challenge the view that hydroxychloroquine is ineffective as a COVID treatment. Dr. Harvey A. Risch, a professor of epidemiology at the Yale School of Public Health, said a full analysis of the literature suggests hydroxychloroquine may be the key to defeating the coronavirus_.

_Prescribing hydroxychloroquine in the early stages of the virus is key, Risch said, and others agree. Steven Hatfill, a veteran virologist and adjunct assistant professor at the George Washington University Medical Center, says the literature supporting hydroxychloroquine is overwhelming.

*“There are now 53 studies that show positive results of hydroxychloroquine in COVID infections,” *Hatfill wrote in RealClearPolitics.

*“There are 14 global studies that show neutral or negative results* -- and 10 of them were of patients in very late stages of COVID-19, where no antiviral drug can be expected to have much effect_.”


----------



## SirRumpole (18 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> *Though his critics are likely loath to admit it, there’s reason to believe the president may have been on to something. *




Well, if he's right about that, maybe he's right about injecting disinfectant ?


----------



## sptrawler (18 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, if he's right about that, maybe he's right about injecting disinfectant ?



Apparently he isn't right about anything, according to the media. 
I guess we will have to wait a few more months to find out.


----------



## basilio (18 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Apparently he isn't right about anything, according to the media.



 Not at all...!
Donald can be quite honest and astute.  

This is particularly noticeable when he is letting people know about how  he intends to kneecap the US postal service to undermine the November elections.


----------



## sptrawler (18 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Not at all...!
> Donald can be quite honest and astute.
> 
> This is particularly noticeable when he is letting people know about how  he intends to kneecap the US postal service to undermine the November elections.



Maybe the media are just getting excuses in place, in case he wins the election?


----------



## satanoperca (18 August 2020)

He gives a rats arse about Donald on this thread.


----------



## cutz (18 August 2020)

Here in other news, a disturbing case of double standards, locals locked in unable to visit loved ones // overseas students no worries ??

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...l-students-amid-coronavirus-defended/12564432


----------



## satanoperca (18 August 2020)

Where is @redrob, I hope he/she doesn't have the virus.

Been quiet.


----------



## cynic (18 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Where is @redrob, I hope he/she doesn't have the virus.
> 
> Been quiet.



It's  only been 10 days.
 For all we know he may have exited retirement to help comrade Dan draft the strategy for implementation of stages 5,6...


----------



## moXJO (18 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, if he's right about that, maybe he's right about injecting disinfectant ?



Umm.. zinc chloride is a disinfectant. And we use it here to fight covid. People were just more stupid then Trump when they jumped on that comment.

So he was right about that as well.


----------



## basilio (18 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> He gives a rats arse about Donald on this thread.



One could/should very easily point out the absolute xxxxing disaster he has inflicted on the US with his "this will all go away" dribble regarding the COVID virus.

We could also riff about his breaking down of international cooperation on tacking the problem.

Perhaps also on trying to buy exclusive rights to the first vaccine ?

Or best of all whiteanting his best medical advisor on the issue becasue he just doesn't believe the science.


----------



## grah33 (18 August 2020)

know what's going on, anyone?   are we trying to get rid of all cases?  and then what , open up everything?  this doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Knobby22 (18 August 2020)

grah33 said:


> know what's going on, anyone?   are we trying to get rid of all cases?  and then what , open up everything?  this doesn't make sense to me.



I think we might be. We got pretty close at one stage.


----------



## wayneL (18 August 2020)

I still think TDS is more toxic than Covid.

The former seems utterly incurable for those so afflicted, the latter almost 100%  recoverable for those with a functioning immune system.

Just sayin'


----------



## Knobby22 (18 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> I still think TDS is more toxic than Covid.
> 
> The former seems utterly incurable for those so afflicted, the latter almost 100%  recoverable for those with a functioning immune system.
> 
> Just sayin'



So common though.
Sufferers don't even realise they have it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> Umm.. zinc chloride is a disinfectant. And we use it here to fight covid.



It's also a key ingredient in some disposable (non-rechargeable) batteries.

Better buy shares in Eveready before anyone works out they've got a virus cure......


----------



## moXJO (19 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's also a key ingredient in some disposable (non-rechargeable) batteries.
> 
> Better buy shares in Eveready before anyone works out they've got a virus cure......



Don't let that get out. The next mainstream media headline will be "Trump recommends injecting batteries".

Once upon a time that would have been in jest. Now it has a high % chance of happening. God I hate 2020.


----------



## wayneL (19 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> So common though.
> Sufferers don't even realise they have it.



It's a bit like BO like that


----------



## wayneL (19 August 2020)

Thread: how this whole bs started


----------



## SirRumpole (19 August 2020)

216 new cases in Victoria today, the lowest in a month.

Some reward for effort for the Vics, let's hope it continues.


----------



## cynic (19 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> 216 new cases in Victoria today, the lowest in a month.
> 
> Some reward for effort for the Vics, let's hope it continues.



Perhaps this decline is correlated to a decline in the number of people fronting up for testing!!!


----------



## SirRumpole (19 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Perhaps this decline is correlated to a decline in the number of people fronting up for testing!!!




Maybe it is, but doesn't it depend on why they don't turn up ?

If there are less tests done because less people have symptoms then that's a good thing isn't it ? but if they don't show because they are afraid of losing income or the lines are too long then that's bad, and we need to know which it is.


----------



## cynic (19 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe it is, but doesn't it depend on why they don't turn up ?
> 
> If there are less tests done because less people have symptoms then that's a good thing isn't it ? but if they don't show because they are afraid of losing income or the lines are too long then that's bad, and we need to know which it is.



You clearly do not live in Victoria.

People are afraid to get tested because a positive test result equates to being placed onto the gestapo radar!!!


----------



## IFocus (19 August 2020)

moXJO said:


> Don't let that get out. The next mainstream media headline will be "Trump recommends injecting batteries".
> 
> Once upon a time that would have been in jest. Now it has a high % chance of happening. God I hate 2020.




Or shine a blue light inside them.........


----------



## DB008 (19 August 2020)

*How Did Sweden Flatten Its Curve Without a Lockdown?*

*— One expert credits a "good-enough strategy"; others worry that it won't last*​
*Immunity*

Experts told _MedPage Today_ there weren't clear data to prove Tegnell's assertion of widespread immunity in Sweden.

Furberg said there is likely "some sort of unspecific immunity that protects parts of the population from contracting COVID-19" but it's not necessarily secondary to SARS-CoV-2 exposure.

For instance, a study by the Karolinska Institute and Karolinska University Hospital recently found that about 30% of people with mild or asymptomatic COVID showed T-cell-mediated immunity to the virus, even though they tested negative for antibodies.

"This figure is [more than] twice as high as the previous antibody tests, meaning that the public immunity to COVID-19 is probably much higher than what antibody studies have suggested," Ding told _MedPage Today_. "This is of course very good news from a public health perspective, as it shows that people with negative antibody test results could still be immune to the virus at a cellular level."

*Indeed, T-cell immunity is coming into focus as a potentially important factor in COVID infection. A paper published in Nature in mid-July found that among 37 healthy people who had no history of either the first or current SARS virus, more than half had T cells that recognized one or more of the SARS-CoV-2 proteins.*

Another 36 people who had mild-to-severe COVID-19 were all found to have T-cell responses to several SARS-CoV-2 proteins, and another 23 people who had SARS-CoV-1 (the virus responsible for the SARS outbreak in 2003) all had lasting memory T cells -- even 17 years later -- that also recognized parts of SARS-CoV-2.

It could be that T cell immunity is the result of a previous infection with common cold coronaviruses, but this hasn't yet been established; nor is it certain that T cell immunity is driving Sweden's decline in COVID cases.​

More on link below...

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87812​


----------



## satanoperca (19 August 2020)

DB008 said:


> *Indeed, T-cell immunity is coming into focus as a potentially important factor in COVID infection. A paper published in Nature in mid-July found that among 37 healthy people who had no history of either the first or current SARS virus, more than half had T cells that recognized one or more of the SARS-CoV-2 proteins.*​



Great hightlight, I wonder why I think humans are f--kd, who would of thought that T Cells and testing might be important, really, these are the brightest minds we have to fight this.

*T cells* (also called *T lymphocytes*) are one of the major components of the adaptive immune system. Their *roles* include directly killing infected host *cells*, activating other immune *cells*, producing cytokines and regulating the immune response.

Ah those little f---kers, helping us defend our bodies against viruses.

What is more interesting is :
A *T cell* is a type of lymphocyte, which develops in the thymus gland (hence the name) and plays a central role in the immune response. *T cells* can be distinguished from other *lymphocytes* by the presence of a *T*-*cell* receptor on the *cell* surface.

Crap, I am screwed,  they removed my thymus gland, 18 hours of surgery, but it is gone, well that was 28 years ago.

Just go to show, need to research and understand the complexity of existing.

​


----------



## Joules MM1 (19 August 2020)

https://rairfoundation.com/renowned...19-in-hamburg-without-previous-illness-watch/


----------



## IFocus (19 August 2020)

That was interesting but just so everyone knows who Rair are

*RAIR FOUNDATION USA*






Founders: Amy Mekelburg, Anni Cyrus
President: Chris Gaubatz

The RAIR Foundation USA was created in May 2016 by Amy Jane Mekelburg, a far-right internet troll who had gained notoriety as a prolific espouser of Islamophobic hatred on Twitter.

Mekelburg reached out to Anni Cyrus, a host on the Islamophobic ‘Glazov Gang’ YouTube channel, to assist in the creation of RAIR. Chris Gaubatz, former Vice President of the Islamophobic consultation group, Understanding the Threat (UTT), until April 2018, was revealed to be RAIR’s President following an advertisement for a “National Security Briefing” event on 4 June 2018 featuring him in Cincinnati, hosted by ACT for America’s Southwest Ohio chapter. Gaubatz is the son of Paul David Gaubatz, co-author of _Muslim Mafia: Inside the Secret Underworld that’s Conspiring to Islamize America_ (2009), which drew on Chris’s infiltration of the Council of American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) in 2007.

As of October 2018 RAIR’s website has reverted to a page inviting visitors to sign-up, however, prior to this people could submit photos and contact information of those they believed were “accomplices” to jihadi terrorists.


----------



## bellenuit (19 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> but just so everyone knows who Rair are




She didn't in any way try to question his conclusion. What difference does it make if all the deaths he autopsied had some other causal issue. It was COVID-19 that was the key factor. We know death rates are up substantially in most countries compared to the average (a good measure of whether COVID-19 can be lethal or not). Older people living in countries like Germany where many people smoke and drink heavily are likely to have pre-existing conditions, but they would likely have continued to live a long life but for COVID-19.


----------



## cynic (19 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> That was interesting but just so everyone knows who Rair are
> 
> *RAIR FOUNDATION USA*
> 
> ...



IFocus,
Was this the source from which you were quoting?:
https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/rese...ofiles/wider-scene/north-america-groups/#RAIR

Edit: If so, thankyou for directing me to an invaluable source of information (i.e. RAIR website) that might otherwise have been obscured from view due to suppression and censorship.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 August 2020)

Another discussion on the Swedish approach.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...ty-strategy-for-coronavirus-covid-19/12570918


----------



## IFocus (20 August 2020)

cynic said:


> IFocus,
> Was this the source from which you were quoting?:
> https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/rese...ofiles/wider-scene/north-america-groups/#RAIR
> 
> Edit: If so, thankyou for directing me to an invaluable source of information (i.e. RAIR website) that might otherwise have been obscured from view due to suppression and censorship.




It looked like Rair had covered their tracks it was hard to find anything other than what Rair said about themselves quite the opposite i thought.


----------



## cynic (20 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> It looked like Rair had covered their tracks it was hard to find anything other than what Rair said about themselves quite the opposite i thought.



It did not sound at all like a self description.

I seriously wonder how many organisations would self describe any of their founders, as far right internet trolls who espouse islamophobic hatred!


----------



## basilio (20 August 2020)

*Is anyone safe from Covid-19? This is what we know so far about immunity*
Zania Stamataki
The good news is that our natural defences can eliminate the virus and scientists are making progress with antiviral therapies

Zania Stamataki is a senior lecturer in viral immunology
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...mmunity-natural-defences-eliminate-virus-data


----------



## basilio (20 August 2020)

cynic said:


> I seriously wonder how many organisations would self describe any of their founders, as far right internet trolls who espouse islamophobic hatred!




Well they wouldn't would they .  
I suggest Defenders of Christian Civilization would be a more likely self description..


----------



## cynic (20 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Well they wouldn't would they .
> I suggest Defenders of Christian Civilization would be a more likely self description..



Which provides ample explanation for HateNotHope's (and organisations of their ilk) public vilification of them!


----------



## jbocker (20 August 2020)

*NO* it is *NOT* a POLITICAL football...
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/aust...is-australia-s-turn/ar-BB18a68V?ocid=msedgntp


----------



## cynic (20 August 2020)

jbocker said:


> *NO* it is *NOT* a POLITICAL football...



Two of those words are not like the other words.
two of those words are not the same. 
Two of those words do not belong with the other words. 
Now it's time to play our game.

Can you tell which two words do not belong with the other words?

Let's see what happens when we omit the two words in question:
".. it is ... a POLITICAL football."


----------



## IFocus (20 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Which provides ample explanation for HateNotHope's (and organisations of their ilk) public vilification of them!




I honestly cannot find any linK from that UK website that opposes hate agenda to Rair do you have any?


----------



## cynic (20 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> I honestly cannot find any linK from that UK website that opposes hate agenda to Rair do you have any?



Not sure I understand what you're asking due to an ambiguity within the phrase "opposes hate agenda".

 What I do know is that HateNotHope are openly vilifying a number of organisations due to their opposition to HateNotHope's ironically racist and exclusive agenda of "anti-racism" and "inclusivity".

Apologies, but my comments have, regretfully,steered this thread away from topic, so if your investigations are truly failing to uncover the respective agendas at play, I would be happy to discuss on a more relevant thread. Perhaps one of the freedom of speech threads, would be more fitting.


----------



## basilio (20 August 2020)

*Emergency doctor with coronavirus who was put on ventilator speaks out*
An emergency doctor in Melbourne says he feels lucky to be alive after spending days on a ventilator in intensive care with coronavirus.

*Key points:*

Dr Yianni Efstathiadis suspects he contracted COVID-19 from a patient
He had to be put onto a ventilator in intensive care at Melbourne's Northern Hospital Epping
The head of intensive care was concerned Dr Efstathiadis was going to die
In July, news outlets around the country reported a young doctor in his 30s was in ICU, but his identity has not been revealed until now.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...coronavirus-put-on-ventilator-in-icu/12578644


----------



## basilio (20 August 2020)

More about the Swedish experience with COVID.

*Sweden records highest death tally in 150 years in first half of 2020*
Covid-19 caused about 4,500 deaths in six months to end of June as Sweden opted against strict lockdown
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...eath-tally-in-150-years-in-first-half-of-2020


----------



## wayneL (20 August 2020)

basilio said:


> *Emergency doctor with coronavirus who was put on ventilator speaks out*
> An emergency doctor in Melbourne says he feels lucky to be alive after spending days on a ventilator in intensive care with coronavirus.
> 
> *Key points:*
> ...



Fear fear!

OMG we're all going to die


----------



## basilio (20 August 2020)

Indepth analysis of how the Swedish Health system did not protect aged care facilities from COVID. 
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/2...ers-tegnell-started-long-before-the-pandemic/


----------



## basilio (20 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Fear fear!



What are you afraid of Wayne? 

That it is clear you don't have to be a geriatric oldies with one foot in the grave to get seriously ill with COVIV?
That a healthy young doctor, *in fact any healthy young person*, can end up in ICU on  a ventilator.


----------



## DB008 (20 August 2020)




----------



## wayneL (20 August 2020)

basilio said:


> What are you afraid of Wayne?
> 
> That it is clear you don't have to be a geriatric oldies with one foot in the grave to get seriously ill with COVIV?
> That a healthy young doctor, *in fact any healthy young person*, can end up in ICU on  a ventilator.



Indeed!

The same could be said of any virus, especially influenza A.

And by the way I was being ironic. I know such subtleties are unclear to you, but I am not worried about covid... In fact I probably may have already had it (untested).


----------



## satanoperca (20 August 2020)

basilio said:


> What are you afraid of Wayne?
> 
> That it is clear you don't have to be a geriatric oldies with one foot in the grave to get seriously ill with COVIV?
> That a healthy young doctor, *in fact any healthy young person*, can end up in ICU on  a ventilator.




I told myself and my other personalities, I would not respond to the crap information that is being presented as fact, but as a fighter for good, I cannot help myself.

So no healthy fit doctor in the past ever became ill?

This is propaganda, the sheepie's as so easily manipulated. 

That a healthy young doctor, *in fact any healthy young person*, can end up in ICU on  a ventilator.

This is correct, but no one ever put it in the news for me or the others that I watched die during the time in ICU.


----------



## satanoperca (20 August 2020)

DB008 said:


> View attachment 107852​




Stuff me dead with herbs and spices, I graph that might represent reality.


----------



## DB008 (21 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Stuff me dead with herbs and spices, I graph that might represent reality.




Here is another one for you.

Is Sweden's 2020 mortality rate similar to previous years?

Did Anders Tegnell get it right? By the looks of it, he might have










​





https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/


.​


----------



## IFocus (21 August 2020)

DB008 said:


> Here is another one for you.
> 
> Is Sweden's 2020 mortality rate similar to previous years?
> 
> ...




Any similar stats from Swedens neighbours?


----------



## satanoperca (21 August 2020)

DB008 said:


> Here is another one for you.
> 
> Is Sweden's 2020 mortality rate similar to previous years?
> 
> ...




Who woulda thought, that the Swedes might use knowledge, research, and intelligence to put in place a pandemic plan that might be effective?

I was always under the belief that the Swedish population wasn't far in the evolution chain of monkeys, crap, brain fart again, that is Australian politicians.


----------



## cutz (21 August 2020)

Pretty encouraging data out of Sweden and Central Europe, central authorities calling the shots ?

I'm increasing feeling alarmed / sickened with the approach here in Australia , border closures, state against state for political brownie points, did someone say banana republic !!! We have truely gone backwards over the years, we've become a nation of services contract part time casual workers juggling multiple lowly jobs to make ends meet, it's no surprise things went pear shaped in Melbourne !

Pre pandemic I frequently travelled interstate to help and visit a close family member, my correspondence to the health department here for approval to allow me to travel remains unanswered, forget about trying to call, the news that international students will be under consideration for entry left me scratching my head, what a low act of double standards.

It's difficult to see an end in sight, the Europeans seem to be coming out the other side, we seem to be floundering around flipping between lockdowns and easings waiting for a vaccine that may or may not come.


----------



## basilio (21 August 2020)

Always interesting to see how statistics can be shaped to support a particular view.
The story from News Ltd on the Swedish death statistics focused on the core issue - that is how many extra people have died in Sweden as a consequence of COVID 19. This is how the reporter saw it and why.
*Coronavirus: Sweden has recorded its highest death toll in 150 years*
Sweden recorded its highest death toll in 150 years in the first half of 2020, in a count not seen since an infamous famine in 1869.

Sweden recorded its highest death toll in 150 years in the first half of 2020, in a count not seen since an infamous famine in 1869.

The Scandinavian nation, which refused to implement a COVID-19 lockdown, recorded 51,405 deaths between January and June, according to the country’s official statistics office.

That figure is around 6500, or 15 per cent, more than the same time period last year.
https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...s/news-story/086570ad4dc5336e46885fdef15e5fa3


----------



## cutz (21 August 2020)

Just noticed the Covid Marshals are in town, named after the Prem.


----------



## cynic (21 August 2020)

cutz said:


> Just noticed the Covid Marshals are in town, named after the Prem.



Perhaps Covid Mar*tia*ls, may prove to be the correct spelling, more apt, to that particular position description.


----------



## cutz (21 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Perhaps Covid Mar*tia*ls, may prove to be the correct spelling, more apt, to that particular position description.




@cynic

I hear you mate;

This guy managed to make it across... Maybe

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...ed-bordertown-coronavirus-checkpoint/12584686


----------



## qldfrog (21 August 2020)

Just to add a bit of reality to these Australian experts who by en large have not met much virus wave
https://www.leparisien.fr/societe/sante/ne-pas-faire-de-ce-virus-un-terroriste-16-08-2020-368563.php
In french 
The text: is stating
In France, with proper icu, and treatment people do not die from covid anymore, they die with covid and he gives example of a 38kg cancer patients whose life might be shortened by a few days etc
He is working and has worked as a reanimator in Toulouse Hospital
He is real, not fake news and advocates that instead of lockdown etc, we should just make sure we are ready for proper treatment of the few cases requiring hospitalisation 

In 1 day ,even frontline witnesses like this will be forgotten again and we will see the usual culprits wondering if we should lock whole area down close more borders all that under a pretense of a new plague, with people acting like scared rabbits in front of a car, with the same amount of logic thinking and brain use


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> In France, with proper icu, and treatment people do not die from covid anymore, they die with covid and he gives example of a 38kg cancer patients whose life might be shortened by a few days etc




Yes, we can all pick single examples to "prove" our point.

Behind the scenes there are a lot of people who have to go into hospital and clog up the wards putting strain on the hospital system and staff , but eventually recover.

If you want a single example of that, BoJo (Boris Johnson) who seems quite ok now but had to spend a month in hospital , some in ICU.

There are a lot more like him.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 August 2020)

DB008 said:


> Here is another one for you.
> 
> Is Sweden's 2020 mortality rate similar to previous years?



No.

On an annualised basis using those figures it's running at 11.5% higher than the average of the previous 10 years and is 9.7% the highest of the previous 10 years.

On an annualised basis that's approximately 10,500 additional deaths.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 August 2020)

cutz said:


> I'm increasing feeling alarmed / sickened with the approach here in Australia , border closures, state against state for political brownie points, did someone say banana republic !!! We have truely gone backwards over the years, we've become a nation of services contract part time casual workers juggling multiple lowly jobs to make ends meet, it's no surprise things went pear shaped in Melbourne !




Yep. That situation is one which pretty much anyone with any sort of technical background (anything from electricity to medicine) has been lamenting for years now. Science and competence is out, failed ideology is in.

The border situation is somewhat ridiculous I agree and there's a few problems:

State borders are, with the obvious exception of Tasmania, a purely artificial political construct. It would be a truly amazing coincidence, up there with being struck by lightning or winning first prize in a major lottery, if those borders just happened to be the best place to put barriers on movement to deal with a pandemic.

Far more sensibly we'd contain the problem based on where the virus has been found and where people actually travel and so on not based on politics as is being done at present.

In SA we've got permanent residents of the state refused any means of returning to their own homes, they can't cross the border, meanwhile there's a plan to bring in foreign students.

There's simply no acceptable explanation for that which doesn't involve money and politics calling the shots.

If quarantine can be done effectively then use it to allow residents to return home after quarantine.

If quarantine can't be done effectively then it's idiotic to be bringing foreign students in.

Reality is exemptions are for, in practice, people with a lot of money. Property developers, executives, football players and so on - not exactly critical things that really require crossing borders.

That sort of silliness and "one rule for the masses, another rule for the elites" will simply burn up public goodwill and lead to the whole thing becoming unenforceable is my expectation.


----------



## cutz (22 August 2020)

@Smurf1976 

Sounds like we share the same frustrations, you put it down much more eloquently.


----------



## qldfrog (22 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, we can all pick single examples to "prove" our point.
> 
> Behind the scenes there are a lot of people who have to go into hospital and clog up the wards putting strain on the hospital system and staff , but eventually recover.
> 
> ...



It is not me talking but an icu  specialist a qualified one which as opposed to anyone in this forum, and even more anyone in Australia has treated cases under the initial wave, and the ongoing cases.
It may not suit the narrative, your views but in your shoes, i would be very interested to learn that you/we have very slim chance to die from the virus if treated properly.
Aka instead of spending billions if not trillion in locking people and smashing the economy, just ensure your teams are ready with proper equipment and bed.
It is not a medical issue but a political one.
In my opinion a very good news item
As for what will be done of this or just facts, with an election coming up, do not expect much sensible measures here in Qld.
As for picking the single case, Boris indeed took a hit but remember when this was.
A lot has progressed in treating people..not a cure but procedures
Significantly better outcome now
Something called experience.
We would be better off sending some teams in Europe to learn from them than locking ourselves in


----------



## wayneL (22 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> It is not me talking but an icu  specialist a qualified one which as opposed to anyone in this forum, and even more anyone in Australia has treated cases under the initial wave, and the ongoing cases.
> It may not suit the narrative, your views but in your shoes, i would be very interested to learn that you/we have very slim chance to die from the virus if treated properly.
> Aka instead of spending billions if not trillion in locking people and smashing the economy, just ensure your teams are ready with proper equipment and bed.
> It is not a medical issue but a political one.
> ...



Perfectly sensible. Bravo.


----------



## IFocus (22 August 2020)

qldfrog said:


> It is not me talking but an icu  specialist a qualified one which as opposed to anyone in this forum, and even more anyone in Australia has treated cases under the initial wave, and the ongoing cases.
> It may not suit the narrative, your views but in your shoes, i would be very interested to learn that you/we have very slim chance to die from the virus if treated properly.
> Aka instead of spending billions if not trillion in locking people and smashing the economy, just ensure your teams are ready with proper equipment and bed.
> It is not a medical issue but a political one.
> ...




Haven't seen the numbers lately but Germany initially had the best survival rates out of ICUs in Europe and Australia at one stage the worlds best that may have changed as you say experience increases the quality of treatment.

That only applies if you have the beds to treat them.

But as Rup says it wont stop the Virus clogging up hospital systems and then the survival rates drop according.

BTW US survival rates were terrible.

Edit

https://www.smh.com.au/national/bes...id-19-icu-survival-rates-20200714-p55byq.html


----------



## Knobby22 (22 August 2020)

I thought I read that Australia now has world beating survival rates?


----------



## IFocus (22 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I thought I read that Australia now has world beating survival rates?





https://www.smh.com.au/national/bes...id-19-icu-survival-rates-20200714-p55byq.html


----------



## wayneL (22 August 2020)

Anastasia Stalinczuk has pulled her Jackboots back on, keeping up with the Jonesechevs in the Soviet Republic of Victoriastan I guess


----------



## cynic (22 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Anastasia Stalinczuk has pulled her Jackboots back on, keeping up with the Jonesechevs in the Soviet Republic of Victoriastan I guess



She hasn't imposed an 8pm curfew and home detention yet, so she's still got a little bit of catching up to do.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 August 2020)

There are two very important factors which affect how the virus spreads.
1. The density of the population.
2. The density of the population.


----------



## cynic (23 August 2020)

Granted, population density is a significant factor. However, let's not forget that cold wet weather also seems to have some correlation to coronaviruses generally.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Granted, population density is a significant factor. However, let's not forget that cold wet weather also seems to have some correlation to coronaviruses generally.




Yes, it will be interesting to see the changes in case loads as
 the seasons switch over in the north and south hemispheres.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 August 2020)

Come on guys. It's a play on words.
Two factors.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Come on guys. It's a play on words.




Ah very good Knobby .

Yes, we have a lot of dense people, that's for sure.


----------



## cynic (23 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> There are two very important factors which affect how the virus spreads.
> 1. The density of the population.
> 2. The density of the population.



Apologies knobby. Just got it after reading your kind PM. It just goes to show how dense this particular population member was on this occasion.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 August 2020)

And in more coronavirus news in Victoria the cast and crew of The Masked Singer are all in isolation due to the virus.

It could have been the most interesting reality TV show ever. Here's the octopus character fainting on stage. There's David Hughes judging from his ICU bed. I would have watched.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> And in more coronavirus news in Victoria the cast and crew of The Masked Singer are all in isolation due to the virus.
> 
> It could have been the most interesting reality TV show ever. Here's the octopus character fainting on stage. There's David Hughes judging from his ICU bed. I would have watched.



and an element of ironic twist, being the MASKED Singer. Many an editorial pun to follow


----------



## wayneL (23 August 2020)




----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2020)

I don't know about young people and the psychological affect this is having on them, but I do know my mother and mother in law have both taken a huge step for the worse, since this virus and all the bad news surrounding it has commenced.


----------



## satanoperca (24 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I don't know about young people and the psychological affect this is having on them, but I do know my mother and mother in law have both taken a huge step for the worse, since this virus and all the bad news surrounding it has commenced.



Can you elaborate more?


----------



## sptrawler (25 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Can you elaborate more?



Both have had multiple falls and I think a lot is to do with not going outside and getting exercise, before the virus they both visited neighbours and socialised.
Since the virus, they hardly go out at all and only if it is absolutely essential, now they are both in hospital, with all likely hood of them ending up in permanent care.
It may be coincidence, but the muscle wastage is obvious and the pre occupation with talking about the virus is mentally draining on them.
No amount of reassurance, stops them thinking the worst, I've told them to not watch the news but old people get fixated.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Both have had multiple falls and I think a lot is to do with not going outside and getting exercise, before the virus they both visited neighbours and socialised.
> Since the virus, they hardly go out at all and only if it is absolutely essential, now they are both in hospital, with all likely hood of them ending up in permanent care.
> It may be coincidence, but the muscle wastage is obvious and the pre occupation with talking about the virus is mentally draining on them.
> No amount of reassurance, stops them thinking the worst, I've told them to not watch the news but old people get fixated.




Everyone in that age group and slightly younger must be scared of getting the virus and that is obviously a mental drain.

It is for me. I went to an eye doctor today, and they were paranoid about mask wearing, hand sanitising and cleaning every little thing that I laid my filthy hands on.

And this is in an area with less than 10 cases in the last 3 months.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (25 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> It is for me. I went to an eye doctor today, and they were paranoid about mask wearing, hand sanitising and cleaning every little thing that I laid my filthy hands on.
> 
> And this is in an area with less than 10 cases in the last 3 months.




Its called using PPE and good hygiene @SirRumpole . Imagine if someone caressed your noble brow with dirty paws while looking in to your misty eyes and gave you the plague. 

The coronavirus spreads exponentially not in a linear fashion and thus 1 case goes to 5 and then 30 and then 210 as quick as a wink. 

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (25 August 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Its called using PPE and good hygiene @SirRumpole . Imagine if someone caressed your noble brow with dirty paws while looking in to your misty eyes and gave you the plague.
> 
> The coronavirus spreads exponentially not in a linear fashion and thus 1 case goes to 5 and then 30 and then 210 as quick as a wink.
> 
> gg




Too true Sir Garpal. Better safe than sorry I suppose.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 August 2020)

Link between spread of covid and humidity.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/weather-covid-19-coronavirus-and-humidity/12587402


----------



## grah33 (25 August 2020)

wayneL said:


>




i need to check but i think a few 100 deaths a day is quite small compared to other death rates that occur normally in society.


----------



## grah33 (25 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I don't know about young people and the psychological affect this is having on them, but I do know my mother and mother in law have both taken a huge step for the worse, since this virus and all the bad news surrounding it has commenced.



yes, and one of my relations as well, seems traumatized.  and things haven't even begun yet.  the potential for destruction has been put on hold until the payments stop.


----------



## grah33 (25 August 2020)

anyone know why people outside are exercising in  masks?   I'm not getting this.


----------



## grah33 (25 August 2020)

DB008 said:


> Here is another one for you.
> 
> Is Sweden's 2020 mortality rate similar to previous years?
> 
> ...



u might like to also compare with the US data.  death rate 4 times higher than their usual numbers ?


----------



## satanoperca (25 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Both have had multiple falls and I think a lot is to do with not going outside and getting exercise, before the virus they both visited neighbours and socialised.
> Since the virus, they hardly go out at all and only if it is absolutely essential, now they are both in hospital, with all likely hood of them ending up in permanent care.
> It may be coincidence, but the muscle wastage is obvious and the pre occupation with talking about the virus is mentally draining on them.
> No amount of reassurance, stops them thinking the worst, I've told them to not watch the news but old people get fixated.




Thanks for providing some insight into how the various rules and actions of our govnuts are effecting the people who they are trying to protect.


----------



## macca (25 August 2020)

It has been Sweden's summer, they were allowed out and they go crazy for the sunshine because they get so little of it at other times. 

They have very fair skin so a little bit of sunshine makes a large difference to their Vitamin D rates

Sitting in the sun having a coffee is a healthy thing to do, both physically and mentally


----------



## IFocus (25 August 2020)

macca said:


> It has been Sweden's summer, they were allowed out and they go crazy for the sunshine because they get so little of it at other times.
> 
> They have very fair skin so a little bit of sunshine makes a large difference to their Vitamin D rates
> 
> Sitting in the sun having a coffee is a healthy thing to do, both physically and mentally




You maybe right Macca but also the fact the Swedes have followed instructions on gathering restrictions, social distancing and other measures to limit the spread of the virus.

Virus spread = people+contact+movement, its not rocket science but not understood by most its seems.


----------



## macca (25 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> You maybe right Macca but also the fact the Swedes have followed instructions on gathering restrictions, social distancing and other measures to limit the spread of the virus.
> 
> Virus spread = people+contact+movement, its not rocket science but not understood by most its seems.




From the very start of the outbreak I have been very disappointed we did not follow the actions of the Asian countries who have been through all this before.

When the initial panic was on I believe that people would have been far more likely to wear masks in public, observe social distancing and generally be a bit more careful.

By doing that we could have all stayed at work and lived an almost normal life, instead we had our head medical people saying "she'll be right" just stay apart and all go home and we will give you money.

"Party time" instead of "Oh Shyte" time...no wonder people "just don't get it"


----------



## bellenuit (26 August 2020)

*FDA chief apologizes for overstating plasma effect on virus*

*https://apnews.com/a7f0e8aac34a860ad502912564681b7c
*
_Hahn had echoed Trump in saying that 35 more people out of 100 would survive the coronavirus if they were treated with the plasma. That claim vastly overstated preliminary findings of Mayo Clinic observation.

The 35% figure drew condemnation from other scientists and some former FDA officials, who called on Hahn to correct the record.

“I have been criticized for remarks I made Sunday night about the benefits of convalescent plasma. The criticism is entirely justified. What I should have said better is that the data show a relative risk reduction not an absolute risk reduction,” Hahn tweeted._


----------



## DB008 (26 August 2020)

grah33 said:


> u might like to also compare with the US data. death rate 4 times higher than their usual numbers ?






IFocus said:


> You maybe right Macca but also the fact the Swedes have followed instructions on gathering restrictions, social distancing and other measures to limit the spread of the virus.
> 
> Virus spread = people+contact+movement, its not rocket science but not understood by most its seems.




I spoke to a former work colleague yesterday, who lives in Sweden. It's basically business as usual. They are already at the end of the tunnel, Covid is pretty much over, over there. We are still trying to find the light at the end of the tunnel (in state lockdown and whatnot), let alone see it.


----------



## qldfrog (26 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Link between spread of covid and humidity.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/weather-covid-19-coronavirus-and-humidity/12587402



There is also one well known link between cold and higher humidity level aka slaughterhouse, from memory from a research paper at least 3 months old, worse is around 7 degree with 64pc moisture 
No so much size of droplets as per this article but preservation of live virus outside body, so contact contamination increase
To bring a bit of *no need of a phd for this*
Dry weather lead to dry mouth and nose which reduces natural body filtration and response system.
Our dust virus and bacteria traps in nose mucus and along the throat fail...


----------



## qldfrog (26 August 2020)

I have noted a ..welcome..greater emphasis on treatments lately in the news which can be read, especially considering my views..as a shift of focus and or admission of vaccine hopes being squashed.
When you know death rate was decrease significantly when turning people on their bellies, and avoiding intubation as much as possible, there is most probably better use of money than a vaccine..
At the same time: news are highlighting the fact someone got the virus twice..good luck vaccine then...internet best availability of knowledge ever in mankind yet dummest population, ever


----------



## satanoperca (26 August 2020)

DB008 said:


> I spoke to a former work colleague yesterday, who lives in Sweden. It's basically business as usual. They are already at the end of the tunnel, Covid is pretty much over, over there. We are still trying to find the light at the end of the tunnel (in state lockdown and whatnot), let alone see it.




Please DB008, stop spreading *fake news* that could be *real news*, that is not how we do things today in a Covid world.

Cannot have the sheepie hearing that just maybe the govnuts got it very, very wrong.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Please DB008, stop spreading *fake news* that could be *real news*, that is not how we do things today in a Covid world.
> 
> Cannot have the sheepie hearing that just maybe the govnuts got it very, very wrong.



It would be over here if the Vic government hadn't stuffed up.


----------



## basilio (26 August 2020)

*Catholic Church Opposes Vaccine, Suggests Moving COVID To Another Parish Instead *






The Australian Catholic Church says it will not support a potential vaccine for the coronavirus, arguing that a more effective method would be moving the virus to another location and pretending nothing had happened.

“We’ve found it’s the most effective way of dealing with unwanted problems,” a spokesperson for the Church said.

“Everyone always wants to go for elimination, but we’ve always preferred suppression”.

He said it saved a lot of unnecessary time and effort. “Just relocate it for someone else to deal with. Yes, the virus will continue to infect others in the new location, but that’s no longer our problem is it?

The Church said it was opposed to a vaccine due to fears it may use foetal tissue. It is the first time the Church has shown concern for children.
https://www.theshovel.com.au/2020/0...gn=kim_jong_un_dies_again&utm_term=2020-08-25


----------



## wayneL (26 August 2020)




----------



## grah33 (26 August 2020)

basilio said:


> *Catholic Church Opposes Vaccine, Suggests Moving COVID To Another Parish Instead *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People are free - maybe not soon - to follow their conscience /belief.


----------



## grah33 (26 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Please DB008, stop spreading *fake news* that could be *real news*, that is not how we do things today in a Covid world.
> 
> Cannot have the sheepie hearing that just maybe the govnuts got it very, very wrong.



which fake news is he spreading?


----------



## DB008 (27 August 2020)

*University of Queensland scientists release coronavirus vaccine pre-clinical trial data, say results show 'good level of protection'*​
New trial results released by the team behind one of Australian's leading coronavirus vaccine candidates show it is safe and "likely to provide protection" against COVID-19.​
Key points:​
Hamsters treated with the UQ vaccine had their immune responses triggered​
UQ has a deal with Australian vaccine maker CSL to manufacture the vaccine if it wins approval​
The pre-clinical trial results are now being shared with other scientists around the world​

More on link below... 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-26/uq-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-safe-and-working-on-hamsters/12594726

.​


----------



## satanoperca (27 August 2020)

grah33 said:


> which fake news is he spreading?




It was satire.


----------



## grah33 (27 August 2020)

satanoperca said:


> It was satire.



didn't even notice that


----------



## DB008 (27 August 2020)

*Johan Giesecke - The SARS-CoV-2 Iceberg - 98% - 99% of cases are*
*very mild or asymptomatic*​


.​


----------



## satanoperca (27 August 2020)

DB008 stop this fake news. The sheepie cannot handle the truth.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2020)

72% of Victorians support lockdown measures, Essential poll.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-harsh-restrictions-to-curb-covid-second-wave



> The lockdown might be draconian, but Victorians overwhelmingly support the public health restrictions imposed to curb the second wave of coronavirus infections, with support for the measures highest among voters aged over 55, according to a Guardian Essential poll.
> 
> New research shows 72% of the sample backs the decision of the Andrews government to impose a curfew between 8pm and 5am, 71% supports curbs on leaving the house, while 70% endorse restrictions on business and the requirement that people travel no further than 5km from their house. Voters aged over 34 are more likely to support the current lockdown measures than younger people.
> 
> A strong majority, 79%, report having a good understanding of what they are permitted to do and not do under the restrictions. Majorities in the sample of 500 Victorian voters think the lockdown is appropriate (67%) and will be effective in flattening the curve of new infections (60%) – although 41% of respondents who remain in paid work worry the restrictions will have a negative impact on their employment.




More in the link.


----------



## wayneL (28 August 2020)

The proles aren't availing themself to the actual data


----------



## wayneL (28 August 2020)

Interesting the change in narrative from the blm protesters and the anti lock down protesters in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Victoria.

The lack of consistency has not gone unnoticed, Komrades.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 August 2020)

wayneL said:


> Interesting the change in narrative from the blm protesters and the anti lock down protesters in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Victoria.
> 
> The lack of consistency has not gone unnoticed, Komrades.



People fighting for change vs a bunch of Karen's.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 August 2020)

And the true comparison are those protesters early in the epidemic who I didn't see one person defend.


----------



## wayneL (28 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> People fighting for change vs a bunch of Karen's.



I feel sorry for you bro.


----------



## IFocus (28 August 2020)

Nice to see the numbers come down in Victoria also interesting to see suicide hasn't increased in Victoria this year.

Its also fascinating to see that some ignore reams of evidence but seize on some outlier why is that?


----------



## cynic (29 August 2020)

IFocus said:


> Nice to see the numbers come down in Victoria also interesting to see suicide hasn't increased in Victoria this year.
> 
> Its also fascinating to see that some ignore reams of evidence but seize on some outlier why is that?



Sometimes reported statistics are at significant variance to observable reality.

I have received reports of lockdown related deaths, and repeated attempts at self harm, from a number of people with whom I am well acquainted.


----------



## qldfrog (29 August 2020)

During that time, while our douche qld premier parrot in front of camera looking at her next reelection, the pregnat mum of northern nsw loose a baby as she can't access the nearest hospital on the Gold coast and is redirected with hours delay to Sydney.
90y old in final hours has spent an extra day alive on a drip line VS new born dead.
we are winning the war....
Just anecdotal but that kid's life alone was better to be saved than the 500deaths so far.do the math and odds if you want but that is my view


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 August 2020)

macca said:


> From the very start of the outbreak I have been very disappointed we did not follow the actions of the Asian countries who have been through all this before.




We're paying the price for globalisation there.

Can't wear masks when you don't have enough even for the most important things like those working in hospitals and the factories making them are offshore.

If there's one piece of good to come out of the whole sorry mess it's that it might just end that nonsense and see at least some manufacturing returned to Australia. There's more to it than just price alone - it's a matter of national security basically that we have the capability to do things here and that the Australian government can if necessary direct how that's used in a crisis situation.

It's a classic case of saving $1 then some years later the bill turns up and it's $1000. That's usually about the time those who made such decisions suddenly decide that they need to spend more time with their family.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 August 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> People fighting for change vs a bunch of Karen's.



Thing is, if the "Karen" meme were replaced with a different word then you'd be crucified for vilifying others.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Sometimes reported statistics are at significant variance to observable reality.




Also sometimes referred to in different terminology in a way that anyone overhearing the conversation wouldn't realise that what was being discussed was in fact suicide.

That used to be done at least.


----------



## qldfrog (29 August 2020)

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/r...d/news-story/382165db9db83cc550b2e1a60cd2acfd
Read the article.. proud of being a Queenslander ...not...
Our hospital for our people
Murderer....


----------



## IFocus (29 August 2020)

cynic said:


> Sometimes reported statistics are at significant variance to observable reality.
> 
> I have received reports of lockdown related deaths, and repeated attempts at self harm, from a number of people with whom I am well acquainted.




I like everyone expected a tragic increase but the numbers so far haven't reflected that and it may be due to the increased funding, what ever it is hopefully it will continue.

Self harm I haven't seen any figures.


----------



## macca (29 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> We're paying the price for globalisation there.
> 
> Can't wear masks when you don't have enough even for the most important things like those working in hospitals and the factories making them are offshore.
> 
> ...




In the early days we had China ordering their international front companies to buy as much PP stuff as possible and send it back to China.

At the same time we had WHO telling everyone not to worry about masks on the direct advice from China

Obviously, we should have been wearing masks just like China was and we do have a company in Oz that makes them.

At the time they were working a 4 day week, the Govt ordered as many masks as possible so they switched to 24/7 and can make millions of them.

It seems to me that we need a coordinated national approach, Scomo has asked many times for the states to stop "doing their own thing" but he is ignored.

The states are very keen to outdo each other in virtuous deeds, meanwhile they expect the Nation to foot the bill


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2020)




----------



## wayneL (2 September 2020)




----------



## spooly74 (2 September 2020)




----------



## wayneL (2 September 2020)




----------



## satanoperca (2 September 2020)

wayneL said:


>





The last part is sort of real but fake news.

In 2018, an estimated 10 million people fell ill with tuberculosis(TB) worldwide. 5.7 million men, 3.2 million women and 1.1 million children. There were cases in all countries and age groups. *But TB is curable and preventable.*

That is the difference, we can cure one, the other we cannot (yet), hence fear is the driving emotion.

Hence the narrative within the political sphere is once we have a cure/vaccine. All is good! Don't worry about the facts, just the narrative, you can be cured.

Oh, we really haven't developed as a species in the last 2000 years. We/those in power use the narrative of fear, either going to hell or dying from a disease, it works every time and the majority believe. We still havn't learnt as a collective, how to disseminate information/often just data, to drive decisions that affect the majority of our community.

FEAR wins everytime.


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2020)

satanoperca said:


> The last part is sort of real but fake news.
> 
> In 2018, an estimated 10 million people fell ill with tuberculosis(TB) worldwide. 5.7 million men, 3.2 million women and 1.1 million children. There were cases in all countries and age groups. *But TB is curable and preventable.*
> 
> ...



Agree the TB Vs CV comparison doesn't quite fit, but I think the greater point is as you highlight. Which is why I poste it.

But in the vast majority of cases there is a cure for CV, a functioning immune system.

And just to be crystal clear once again, my view is that as a society we should take steps to protect those so compromised, but without committing societal and economic suicide in so doing.


----------



## satanoperca (2 September 2020)

wayneL said:


> And just to be crystal clear once again, my view is that as a society we should take steps to protect those so compromised, but without committing societal and economic suicide in so doing.



Did you trade mark that, cannot have our polies using it and looking half-intelligent.


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2020)




----------



## spooly74 (4 September 2020)

Viral Seasonal Dynamics
A Virus will do what it's always done.
**


----------



## cutz (5 September 2020)

Damn, it's still in the SA wastewater, so much for eradication... 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...s-in-wastewater-and-hotel-quarantine/12633414


----------



## sptrawler (6 September 2020)

Will this be portayed as good or bad, I guess we have to wait until the media decide, at the moment it is a very balanced report. 
Which actually shows that can be done, I for one thought that was a thing of the past, wonders never cease.
Now all we have to do is watch how it all morphs out.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/vic...-melbourne-at-the-shrine-20200905-p55so3.html


----------



## basilio (6 September 2020)

Excellent story on how COVID 19 was spread initially.
*Everyone was drenched in the virus’: was this Austrian ski resort a Covid-19 ground zero?*

At least 6,000 people say they caught coronavirus in Ischgl, dubbed ‘Ibiza on ice’, and their class action is gaining pace. Those who were there recall a terrifying week

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...is-austrian-ski-resort-a-covid-19-ground-zero


----------



## DB008 (6 September 2020)

*
Dozens of Israeli Physicians, Scientists Warn Government Against Coronavirus Lockdown*​
Dozens of Israeli physicians and scientists have signed an open letter calling on the cabinet not to impose a new countrywide lockdown, despite a rise in the number of confirmed coronavirus cases.

The signatories recommend focusing on steps to protect the groups that are most vulnerable to infection – above all older adults – and to avoid broader, more collective measures. They called for adopting, with certain adjustments, the Swedish model for handling the pandemic.

The petition follows the government's decision on Thursday to impose a lockdown on "red" cities and towns, with high infection rates. Some ministers and senior officials have warned that a countrywide lockdown over the High Holy Days may be inevitable should infection rates keep rising.

It was signed by some of the most prominent voices that have criticized the approach of the Israeli government and many other countries in dealing with the virus, both on social media and traditional media platforms. They include Dr. Udi Qimron, a professor of microbiology at Tel Aviv University; Amnon Shashua, the founder of autonomous-driving technology developer Mobileye and a professor of computer science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem; Michael Levitt, a professor of structural biology at Stanford University who was awarded the 2013 Nobel Prize in chemistry; Prof. Eitan Friedman, a professor of internal medicine specializing in cancer; and Dr. Ifat Abadi-Korek, the head of the pharmacoeconomics department at the Israeli Center for Technology Assessment in Health Care.

Missing from the list, at least for now, is the most prominent and outspoken coronavirus contrarian voice in Israel, Prof. Yoram Lass, a former director general of the Health Ministry.

The letter reflects an increasingly strident disagreement in the medical-scientific community in Israel and abroad. In the outbreak's first months, and particularly after tens of thousands of deaths were recorded in China, Italy, Spain and other countries, many governments enacted similar policies involving the strict enforcement of social distancing measures. The most serious of such measures was a full lockdown that in many countries remained in place for weeks and even months.

In Israel, the measures paralyzed the economy and caused massive damage, but the restrictions were lifted after slightly over a month – earlier than in other countries.

Israel’s response to the virus was somewhere between that of Sweden on the one hand and New Zealand on the other. Sweden, led by its chief epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, did not impose a lockdown, instead calling on citizens to observe limited social distancing. While in the pandemic’s first months, it appeared that Sweden was hit much harder by the virus than other Scandinavian states, in the past two months the infection rate has dropped steeply, without signs of a second wave.

New Zealand, in contrast, declared all-out war on the virus early on, nearly eliminating it from the Pacific island nation. The country boasted about its low illness and fatality numbers, including weeks without any new cases. The infection rate has picked up recently, however, leading to strict measures to stop the virus’ spread that are wreaking economic havoc. Detractors say that after this lockdown, New Zealand will be more vulnerable than other countries to a new wave of infection, precisely because the virus has not spread throughout the country. They add that in the absence of a vaccine, victory cannot be declared over the virus.

The petition comes amid reports that the rise in COVID-19 infections in Israel will lead to a new lockdown during the Rosh Hashanah holiday weekend, which starts on the evening of September 18.

“A lockdown does not stop the pandemic, it merely slows its spread slightly and temporarily,” the letter’s signatories write. “When the restrictions are lifted, the virus continues its spread, and this after the country’s citizens have been weakened emotionally, economically and above all in terms of their health. A lockdown does not prevent deaths. On the contrary, it extends the period of time during which populations at risk are exposed to the virus ... thus paradoxically causing excess mortality.”

The physicians and scientists call on the government to adopt the Swedish model, with modifications to better protect older Israelis, as many of the people who died in Sweden during the first wave of the pandemic were in nursing or retirement homes, and the government has apologized for failing to protect this population. They call for keeping schools open while reinforcing the public health system, in order to handle the expected rise in illness this winter.
​https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...n-government-against-covid-lockdown-1.9131812


.​


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (6 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Will this be portayed as good or bad, I guess we have to wait until the media decide, at the moment it is a very balanced report.
> Which actually shows that can be done, I for one thought that was a thing of the past, wonders never cease.
> Now all we have to do is watch how it all morphs out.
> https://www.smh.com.au/national/vic...-melbourne-at-the-shrine-20200905-p55so3.html



I thought it was extremely bad taste for a collection of albeit some concerned citizens but also many lunatics and fascists to gather at the Shrine for this demonstration.

gg


----------



## Dona Ferentes (6 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Will this be portayed as good or bad, I guess we have to wait until the media decide, at the moment it is a very balanced report.
> Which actually shows that can be done, I for one thought that was a thing of the past, wonders never cease.
> Now all we have to do is watch how it all morphs out.
> https://www.smh.com.au/national/vic...-melbourne-at-the-shrine-20200905-p55so3.html



My experience with people like this...







> Matthew Lawson, a prominent anti-lockdown promotor in Melbourne, said he attended the Saturday protest despite reinforcing the "cancelled" message 24 hours earlier.
> "The revolution has now started, it won't stop," he said in a live video on Saturday. "Once this groundswell starts, it won't stop".



...is that they tend to nurture some secret ambition to become Minister of Information in the new order. Little do they know the Cheka has got their number.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (6 September 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> My experience with people like this......is that they tend to nurture some secret ambition to become Minister of Information in the new order. Little do they know the Cheka has got their number.



“The useful idiots “

gg


----------



## Knobby22 (6 September 2020)

Herded like um.


----------



## cutz (6 September 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Herded like um.




Hey Buddy,

I'm trying to understand the point you're trying to make with the 7news piccy. ?


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## Knobby22 (6 September 2020)

Just a meme going around.


----------



## DB008 (7 September 2020)

*No Severe Side Effects for 2,000 São Paulo Volunteers*
*Testing Oxford Vaccine*
​RIO DE JANEIRO, BRAZIL – All 2,000 volunteers selected in São Paulo to be administered the Covid-19 vaccine developed by Oxford University have already been given the first dose of the drug in phase III of trials.

In the city, the research is coordinated by the Federal University of São Paulo (UNIFESP). The global development of the drug is also under the responsibility of AstraZeneca Pharmaceutical Company.

The administration of the initial doses was completed during the month of August and the second dose has started to be distributed, in an expedited process. “It is well underway, we have already performed blood tests.”

All participants of the São Paulo stage of the study are well and did not present serious adverse symptoms after vaccination. All participants of the São Paulo stage of the study are well and did not present serious adverse symptoms after vaccination. (Photo: internet reproduction) “The results of these tests will be computed in a system accessed by Oxford specialists, who are responsible for developing the statistics required for the study,” says Soraya Smaili, Dean of UNIFESP.

“We now have to wait a little longer for all the tests to be done. The goal is to determine if the antibodies will last.” The expert pointed out that the second round of vaccines works as a type of “booster” for the first dose, the most important one.

All participants of the São Paulo stage of the study are well and did not present serious adverse symptoms after vaccination.

One of the reasons for choosing Brazil to run the vaccine trials were the disease’s epidemiological rates, which were high at the time the international cooperation was announced.

The current scenario, fortunately, no longer points to a sharp growth in infections in Brazil. On Friday, September 4th, the country reached a rolling seven-day average of 41,000 new cases and 857 deaths.

This is based on the notifications of the past seven days divided by seven, which offsets the traditional underreporting on weekends when the Health Secretariats work in shifts.

Rio de Janeiro and Bahia

In Rio de Janeiro, approximately 87 percent of the 1,500 volunteers have already received the first dose and 27 percent have been given the second dose. This study is coordinated by the D’or Research and Teaching Institute.

The forecast for the closing of all doses is still in October of this year. The same institute is in charge of testing 2,500 volunteers in Salvador, Bahia – the location saw a considerable increase in volunteer recruitment after a decision by the British university.

In the region, 42 percent of volunteers have already been administered the initial dose and another 16 percent have been given the second shot. The testing process is expected to be completed in November. Should they present any typical symptom of Covid-19, the volunteers will undergo an RT-PCR type test.

Once the vaccine’s efficacy is confirmed, it will also be produced in Brazil, with the involvement of the Oswaldo Cruz Foundation (Fiocruz) laboratories in Rio de Janeiro.​

https://riotimesonline.com/brazil-n...-volunteers-administered-with-oxford-vaccine/


.​


----------



## cutz (9 September 2020)

Times like these can be extremely draining,

The policy makers up north haven't lost their sense of humor.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...ex-parties-but-wedding-dances-banned/12637640


----------



## sptrawler (9 September 2020)

It sounds as though Victoria are running around in circles a bit, hopefully they can keep the trend going down, but the hold on the situation appears tenuous at best. It must be a worry for Victorians, that this lockdown doesn't work, lets hope it does.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-fix-for-contact-tracers-20200908-p55tnj.html
From the article:
_Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews said the state was too “swamped" by the first wave of the pandemic to consider contact-tracing technology it is now embracing to help contain further outbreaks.
Mr Andrews confirmed reports in The Age that Silicon Valley tech giant Salesforce was providing a new data management system to bring Victoria’s contact-tracing methods into the digital age.
The Premier also confirmed that Victoria rejected an approach by Salesforce early in the pandemic.
“Sometimes, when you are swamped, it is not a great time to move to a new IT platform," Mr Andrews said.
The technology has been used for several months in Western Australia, South Australia and New Zealand and also supports contract tracing in 35 US jurisdictions.
Mr Andrews said Victoria’s entire contact-tracing system, currently being staffed by more than 2600 people, was shifting to the new cloud-based platform_.


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## basilio (9 September 2020)

Friend of mine sent me a copy of a daily newsletter from the Washington POST.
Free. Seems useful if one wants to keep up with latest issues/developments.
Clearly has a US focus.






	

		
			
		

		
	
   By  Angela Fritz
_with Avi Selk_



	

		
			
		

		
	
 Email 
_The Post's coronavirus coverage linked in this newsletter is *free to access* from this email._


*The latest*
*Obesity is turning out to be one of the key indicators that a person will have a particularly bad run-in with covid-19.* One study found people with body mass indexes over 30 are at much greater risk for hospitalization, intensive care and death. Another showed that people under age 60 are two to three times more likely to be admitted to the hospital for covid-19 if they are obese. *“We almost think this is akin to throwing a match on a tinderbox,” * said Sara Tartof, a Kaiser Permanente research scientist.  With one of the highest obesity rates in the world, some experts think it has contributed to the stunning coronavirus death rate in the United States.

*In an effort to restore faith in the scientific process, chief executives from nine drug companies vowed Tuesday not to seek approval for vaccines before they have proved to be safe and effective. *Pharmaceutical companies' promise to adhere to safety would in any other time be unremarkable, but  the pledge is coming amid intense pressure from President Trump and the White House to deliver a vaccine before the election.

Trump’s own top vaccine adviser, Operation Warp Speed co-chief Moncef Slaoui, told NPR last week that it's “very unlikely” that a vaccine would be ready before Election Day. And even if it is, the  vast majority of Americans wouldn't be able to get it immediately after it's approved. The FDA will most likely want the *people who are at the most risk — front-line health workers, those older than 65 and those with underlying medical conditions — to be vaccinated first*. After that, it could take another six months for a full approval to distribute the vaccine widely. 

In the meantime, we'll have to continue with social distancing, face masks and rigorous cleaning.* Robots are being deployed to help with the last one. *In one California hospital, two robots disinfect the rooms of all covid-19 patients each day using UV light. It takes them 12 minutes to do a job that a worker would spend 90 on.  The pandemic is pushing the U.S. economy toward automation, and posing long-term risks to low-wage workers in the process.


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## moXJO (9 September 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Herded like um.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seems the sheep fought the good fight.
Turns out the tinfoilers were right on one thing:



> Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews is facing calls to end the state’s night-time curfew immediately, after it was revealed that the unprecedented restriction was not based on medical advice.



https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...w/news-story/43e246ebaf7e5a63286084209d0f0291


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## cutz (9 September 2020)

basilio said:


> *The latest*
> *Obesity is turning out to be one of the key indicators that a person will have a particularly bad run-in with covid-19.* One study found people with body mass indexes over 30 are at much greater risk for hospitalization, intensive care and death. Another showed that people under age 60 are two to three times more likely to be admitted to the hospital for covid-19 if they are obese. *“We almost think this is akin to throwing a match on a tinderbox,” * said Sara Tartof, a Kaiser Permanente research scientist.  With one of the highest obesity rates in the world, some experts think it has contributed to the stunning coronavirus death rate in the United States.




Aussies aren't too far behind..https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports-data/behaviours-risk-factors/overweight-obesity/overview

Explains why Asian nations seem to have lower death rates per population.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 September 2020)

cutz said:


> Aussies aren't too far behind..https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports-data/behaviours-risk-factors/overweight-obesity/overview
> 
> Explains why Asian nations seem to have lower death rates per population.



A friend of mines little brother, who I know pretty well in his late 40s got quite sick with it. (but not intensive care). He is very overweight.


----------



## macca (9 September 2020)

It was published in the very early days by wholistic doctors that there are certain risk factors in the morbidity rates

Obesity, high blood pressure, a bad heart, asthma, Vit D deficiency, lack of regular exercise, diabetes and anyone with a compromised immune system should be super careful.

As usual that was all ignored by the mainstream media


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## satanoperca (9 September 2020)

cutz said:


> https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports-data/behaviours-risk-factors/overweight-obesity/overview




F---k me dead, love the Engwish language.

Who wooda thort!

That being overweight or obese might lead to you being more acceptable to disease! This is a revelation, we need to quickly inform our govnuts of this, seems they missed the brief.

Interesting site with some great facts, wish I could be me hands of some good olde data about deaths in Australia from the virus to do some advanced analysis based on the idea that people who do not care for the bodies my die earlier than expected.

"1 in 3 Australians are obese". Firstly, that is disgraceful or maybe by identifying it we are somehow victimising fat people which is unfair.  

Ah not it is not, stop eating so much, exercise and you will not be obese. PC not, but true.

Well if we are going to start restricting my life, how about we start restricting fatty foods, sugar and if you do not do at least 3 hours of exercise a week, you must stay in your home and rot.


----------



## basilio (10 September 2020)

I think this story highlights a few key points
1)  The effect COVID 19 is having on the economy and how people interact
2)  The sped with which it can spread.

*Thai Rock restaurant was the scene of Sydney's biggest coronavirus cluster — now it's almost out of business*

The couple shut their Wetherill Park eatery on July 9 after a staff member tested positive to the virus.
Two months, and 103 cases later, the business is in a deep, deep hole.
A week after reopening, their restaurant is empty.
"We are down 90 per cent of what we were before the closure," Ms Boyd said.
"If we continue like this for another four weeks, we'll be out of business."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...ster-devastates-thai-rock-restaurant/12644338


----------



## moXJO (10 September 2020)

basilio said:


> I think this story highlights a few key points
> 1)  The effect COVID 19 is having on the economy and how people interact
> 2)  The sped with which it can spread.
> 
> ...



NSW Thais were angry at the owners of this restaurant. Apparently it wasn't owned by Thais (not sure if its true). They were also insulted because they used Thai as part of the name and felt it reflected badly on them when it wasn't Thais at all. 
Thais can get pretty angry.


----------



## cutz (10 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> NSW Thais were angry at the owners of this restaurant. Apparently it wasn't owned by Thais (not sure if its true). They were also insulted because they used Thai as part of the name and felt it reflected badly on them when it wasn't Thais at all.
> Thais can get pretty angry.




Not sure if the anger is justified,

I was angry when I read about this https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...-compassion-over-terminal-qld-father/12648898


----------



## moXJO (10 September 2020)

cutz said:


> Not sure if the anger is justified,
> 
> I was angry when I read about this https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...-compassion-over-terminal-qld-father/12648898



Thais are pretty patriotic.

I don't know what labors go is, but they are pushing the limits. Palachook already used a fake covid death at the start to justify border closure. Sensibly keeping numbers low is one thing. Jailing your states population is another. 

Funny how quickly Labor resorted to locking everyone up. Not exactly a well thought out measure. Thank God bill shorten didn't get in.


----------



## IFocus (10 September 2020)

Its an East Coast thing you guys don't really get on, about boarders and lock downs lets open all the boarders straight after the Federal Government opens the international ones with places with lower Covid rates than Vic and NSW.


----------



## sptrawler (10 September 2020)

IFocus said:


> Its an East Coast thing you guys don't really get on, about boarders and lock downs lets open all the boarders straight after the Federal Government opens the international ones with places with lower Covid rates than Vic and NSW.



We in W.A are the black sheep state, we will accept the financial pain of having no Eastern State tourists and dont mind if there are no Eastern State fifo workers, we will suffer in silence and isolation.


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## spooly74 (11 September 2020)

basilio said:
			
		

> The news on COVID in Europe and elsewhere is sobering. Countries that thought they had it under control now *have rapidly expanding illnesses and deaths.*
> Makes the Victorian/Australian situation look positively rosy..



Rapidly expanding deaths?
It's now a Casedemic.


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## sptrawler (11 September 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Rapidly expanding deaths?
> It's now a Casedemic.




Watching the Tour de France, most appear to be wearing a mask.


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## DB008 (11 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> NSW Thais were angry at the owners of this restaurant. Apparently it wasn't owned by Thais (not sure if its true). They were also insulted because they used Thai as part of the name and felt it reflected badly on them when it wasn't Thais at all.
> Thais can get pretty angry.




Crazy.

Does every pizza joint have to be Italian owned?

Does every kebab shop need Lebanese or M.E. owners?

Does every McDonalds (or American fast food, like hot dogs), need American owners?

Thai Mafia?

I saw a Asian guy cooking German sausages at a Subiaco market years ago...


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## qldfrog (12 September 2020)

spooly74 said:


> Rapidly expanding deaths?
> It's now a Casedemic.




been banging about that for the last couple of months, figures are clear but why would fact matter for our medias, power hungry governments or it seems now a leftist (who would have guessed..) trend.anything can do to remove individual freedom..a bad year flue x4 to 6..that is all what it is..and if anyone qualified start raising his her voice, like the CSL boss  on vaccine, this is quickly put off.What would he know hey?


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## dutchie (12 September 2020)

*Chinese virologist who fled to the US after claiming Beijing covered up Covid-19 vows to publish evidence PROVING the virus is manmade - and claims even non-scientists will be able to verify the data*

* Respected Chinese virologist Dr. Li-Meng Yan claims coronavirus was manmade*
*Appeared on Loose Women today from secret location after fleeing Hong Kong *
*Former researcher at the University of Hong Kong claimed her data was deleted *
* Chinese national health commission have denied claims outbreak started in lab*
*
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...ish-evidence-PROVING-coronavirus-manmade.html*


China lied, people died.


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## satanoperca (12 September 2020)

dutchie said:


> *Chinese virologist who fled to the US after claiming Beijing covered up Covid-19 vows to publish evidence PROVING the virus is manmade - and claims even non-scientists will be able to verify the data*
> 
> * Respected Chinese virologist Dr. Li-Meng Yan claims coronavirus was manmade*
> *Appeared on Loose Women today from secret location after fleeing Hong Kong *
> ...




I have been following this story for months, she has a lot lot lot to loose and not much to gain.

The world leaders, don't want evidence of where it came from, as then they might be forced to act.


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## Knobby22 (12 September 2020)

satanoperca said:


> I have been following this story for months, she has a lot lot lot to loose and not much to gain.
> 
> The world leaders, don't want evidence of where it came from, as then they might be forced to act.



She just wants to get permission to stay in the USA and now she can argue she is a dissident.
She was in Hing Kong, an untrusted area, which is now locking everyone up.


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## moXJO (12 September 2020)

DB008 said:


> Crazy.
> 
> Does every pizza joint have to be Italian owned?
> 
> ...



Dude they were angry as the media kept emphasising "Thai".
 A lot were copping abuse in the streets. They don't like people doing the wrong when it reflects on all of them. 

I've already said too much that I've probably pissed them off.


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## dutchie (13 September 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> She just wants to get permission to stay in the USA and now she can argue she is a dissident.
> She was in Hing Kong, an untrusted area, which is now locking everyone up.



Knowing the Chinese, staying in America won't assure her safety.


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## dutchie (16 September 2020)

dutchie said:


> *Chinese virologist who fled to the US after claiming Beijing covered up Covid-19 vows to publish evidence PROVING the virus is manmade - and claims even non-scientists will be able to verify the data*
> 
> * Respected Chinese virologist Dr. Li-Meng Yan claims coronavirus was manmade*
> *Appeared on Loose Women today from secret location after fleeing Hong Kong *
> ...



Her Twitter account was suspended after 2 days (only 4 tweets).
I wonder why??

China........ lied, people died.


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## DB008 (16 September 2020)

*Sweden's relaxed pandemic policy 'vindicated' as cases hit new low*​

Sweden's controversial non-lockdown COVID-19 policy appears to be paying off as positive cases hit a new low.

While infection rates in other European cases are surging, Sweden recorded a rolling seven-day average of 108 yesterday - its lowest since March.

Sweden has reported 5843 pandemic deaths - one of the world's highest due to a big spike at the start of the pandemic.

But figures from the Swedish national health agency showed only 1.2 per cent of its 120,000 tests last week came back positive.

European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control statistics also show Swedish infections are much lower than most of its neighbours.

The 14-day cumulative total of new cases is 22.2 per 100,000 inhabitants, against 279 in Spain, 158.5 in France and 59 in Britain, which all imposed lockdowns in the northern spring.

Sweden also has fewer new daily COVID-19 cases than its Scandinavian neighbours Norway and Denmark.

Despite the encouraging data, it is unclear whether the country is heading towards herd immunity.

To establish that, 70 per cent to 90 per cent of Sweden's 10 million population would have to develop antibodies.

One Swedish health official said the current low number of cases was a "vindication" of a relaxed COVID-19 strategy, reports the UK's _Times_ newspaper.

But a study by the UK's Royal Society of Medicine found that up to May only about 15 per cent of Sweden had become infected and it doubted herd immunity would be achieved.

Unlike most countries, Sweden did not go into a lockdown when the pandemic spread across Europe in from March. Instead, there was an emphasis on personal responsibility, with most bars, schools, restaurants and salons remaining open.

The approach by the Swedish Government brought international criticism it was too lax as the death toll spiralled earlier this year.

Sweden recorded its highest death tally in 150 years for the first half of 2020, according to the country's official statistics office.

Between January and June this year, 51,405 deaths were registered - more than 6500 fatalities (or 15 per cent) over the same period in 2019.

Much of the criticism around Sweden's response has focused on the high death rates in care homes.

Sweden's chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell admitted in June that the country's Public Health Agency "didn't know that there would be such a big potential for the disease to spread in elderly care homes, with so many deaths."



https://www.9news.com.au/world/coro...immunity/1194daba-9db4-4f12-8110-757e718b8185



.​


----------



## DB008 (17 September 2020)

*Scientists Isolate Coronavirus Antibody In Breakthrough That Could
Lead To New Treatment*​
In the latest scientific triumph to offer new insights into the immune system's response to the coronavirus that's on the cusp of sickening more than 30 million people worldwide, a team at the University of Pittsburgh has successfully isolated an "antibody component" to the virus in a breakthrough that, scientists say, could be used in a new therapeutic.​​The University of Pittsburgh announced in a press release that students from its medical school had isolated the smallest biological molecule yet that "completely and specifically neutralizes" SARS-CoV-2.​​According to the release, the antibody component, which is 10x smaller than a full-sized antibody, has been used to construct a drug - known as Ab8 - that will potentially be use as a therapeutic and prophylactic against the virus.​​Findings from the study were published Tuesday in the journal Cell. In the abstract, the scientists said that the "Bivalent V-sub-H" showed a "high affinity" to bind to the cells of hamsters, preventing them from infection with SARS-CoV-2.​​The finding could help Ab8 become a powerful therapeutic for COVID-19, as the administration takes heat for its unbridled - and, as some argued, premature - support for convalescent plasma, the world is looking for the next "hot" experimental therapeutic.​







> “Ab8 not only has potential as therapy for COVID-19, but it also could be used to keep people from getting SARS-CoV-2 infections,” said co-author John Mellors, chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases at Pitt and UPMC. *“Antibodies of larger size have worked against other infectious diseases and have been well tolerated, giving us hope that it could be an effective treatment for patients with COVID-19 and for protection of those who have never had the infection and are not immune.”*





https://www.zerohedge.com/geopoliti...ntibody-breakthrough-could-lead-new-treatment​

*Source*


----------



## noirua (18 September 2020)

213 Countries and Territories around the world have reported a total of 30,125,256 confirmed cases of the coronavirus COVID-19 that originated from Wuhan, China, and a death toll of 946,712 deaths.  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/countries-where-coronavirus-has-spread/


----------



## satanoperca (18 September 2020)

noirua said:


> 213 Countries and Territories around the world have reported a total of 30,125,256 confirmed cases of the coronavirus COVID-19 that originated from Wuhan, China, and a death toll of 946,712 deaths.  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/countries-where-coronavirus-has-spread/



But don't blame China, it couldn't have escape from one of their high-security labs that were, and did publish, their research into this branch of viruses?


----------



## basilio (19 September 2020)

Insiders view on  US government  response to Corona virus.


----------



## DB008 (21 September 2020)

Dr. Li-Meng Yan Exposes Evidence that Coronavirus was Intentionally Created - Spicer&Co, 9.18.20


​


----------



## sptrawler (22 September 2020)

Interesting way for a government to handle criticism, and people in Australia complain, I guess you don't realise how much latitude you have till it's gone.








						Tycoon who called Xi Jinping a 'clown' over handling of COVID-19 jailed for 18 years
					

A court announces the sentence for Ren Zhiqiang after he disappeared from public view in March after publishing an essay online that accused the Chinese President of mishandling the outbreak.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (23 September 2020)

Anyone see the movie "Awakenings" or read the book by Dr Oliver Sacks? I enjoyed them both. 

*Experts warn coronavirus may cause 'wave' of neurological conditions including Parkinson's disease*

COVID-19 can cause worrying neurological symptoms like a loss of smell and taste, but Australian scientists are warning the damage the virus causes to the brain may also lead to more serious conditions such as Parkinson's disease

It has happened before.

Five years after the Spanish flu pandemic in the early 1900s, there was up to a three-fold increase in the incidence of Parkinson's disease.

Kevin Barnham from the Florey Institute of Neuroscience and Mental Health said he believed a similar "silent wave" of neurological illness would follow this pandemic.









						Experts warn Parkinson's disease may 'explode' after COVID-19
					

The loss of smell and taste are worrying COVID-19 symptoms because they indicate possible damage to the brain. Researchers are warning the coronavirus pandemic could lead to a "wave" of serious conditions like Parkinson's disease in the future.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (23 September 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Anyone see the movie "Awakenings" or read the book by Dr Oliver Sacks? I enjoyed them both.




Truly amazing ... and very sad as well.  People who had been catatonic for 40 plus years "woke up".  But then they deteriorated in a matter of months.

_*Awakenings*_ is a 1990 American drama film based on Oliver Sacks's 1973 memoir of the same title. It tells the story of a fictional character, Dr. Malcolm Sayer, which is based on a real life experience of the author, who, in 1969, discovers beneficial effects of the drug L-Dopa. He administers it to catatonic patients who survived the 1917–28 epidemic of encephalitis lethargica. Leonard Lowe and the rest of the patients are awakened after decades and have to deal with a new life in a new time. The film was nominated for three Academy Awards.









						Awakenings - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## basilio (23 September 2020)

The US has 200,000 dead and marching on. Trump thinks this result  a"shame".

The reasons why the US toll is so high and its inability to bring the epidemic undercontrol is a reminder of the fortune Australia has with its COVID response - nationally and through the State Governments.

*After 200,000 coronavirus deaths, the US faces another rude awakening*

The US death toll has doubled less than four months after the 100,000 landmark – and with autumn nearing, there is little chance of containing the contagion, experts say





Ed Pilkington in New York

@edpilkington
Tue 22 Sep 2020 11.45 EDT
Last modified on Tue 22 Sep 2020 11.46 EDT

Donald Trump attended one of his then daily White House coronavirus briefings on 17 April and in a moment of rare candor talked openly about his projections for the number of Americans who could die from the disease.

“Right now, we’re heading at probably around 60, maybe 65,000,” he said, adding: “One is too many. I always say it: One is too many.”
If one death from coronavirus is too many, then the president of the United States has a lot of explaining to do. His projection of a total 60,000 death toll was passed by 1 May, just two weeks after he made it.

By the end of that month the grim landmark of 100,000 deaths was surpassed. Now less than four months later the toll has doubled again, the virus crossing the 200,000 point with breezy abandon.








						After 200,000 coronavirus deaths, the US faces another rude awakening
					

The US death toll has doubled less than four months after the 100,000 landmark – and with autumn nearing, there is little chance of containing the contagion, experts say




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## satanoperca (23 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Truly amazing ... and very sad as well.  People who had been catatonic for 40 plus years "woke up".  But then they deteriorated in a matter of months.
> 
> _*Awakenings*_ is a 1990 American drama film based on Oliver Sacks's 1973 memoir of the same title. It tells the story of a fictional character, Dr. Malcolm Sayer, which is based on a real life experience of the author, who, in 1969, discovers beneficial effects of the drug L-Dopa. He administers it to catatonic patients who survived the 1917–28 epidemic of encephalitis lethargica. Leonard Lowe and the rest of the patients are awakened after decades and have to deal with a new life in a new time. The film was nominated for three Academy Awards.
> 
> ...




I not only saw the movie, but experienced "Awakenings" in real life, with encephalitis, and many months coming in and out of a coma, finally came out unable to move, with 97% of my memories gone, unable to talk, a total no existent immune system and one very f---kd up brain.

The only reason I survived and alive today is due to highly experimental drugs and I was only 19 and would ride my bike 2.5hours every day to get to school and back, attend gym 5 days a week and parents that not only gave me the one thing you cannot buy, love, but also taught me the value of good fuel in the body. Going from over 80kg to < 50kg was hard.

Mind you, for the next decade, I go told I would be lucky to live past 40, but have now surpassed that, the experts often get many things wrong.


----------



## macca (23 September 2020)

Most of the so called smart people in medicine studiously avoiding the words "Vitamin D"

Overseas where 100 times as much private research is done there are ample studies showing that it is the closest thing we have to a silver bullet at this time

According to the World Health Organization, vitamin D deficiency has been linked to pneumonia, tuberculosis and  bronchiolitis," and that "research out of New Orleans found 100% of  its sickest COVID-19 patients were deficient in vitamin D."

Ecologic  studies showing populations with lower vitamin D levels or lower UVB radiation  exposure have higher COVID-19 mortality,(36,37,38) and the fact that people identified as being  at greatest risk for COVID-19 hospitalization and death (people of color, the  elderly, nursing home residents and those with comorbidities such as obesity,   vascular conditions and chronic kidney disease) also have a higher risk of  vitamin D deficiency.  

Surely the poweres that be should be saying "Get out in the sunshine ASAP or to be sure, go and buy a bottle of VitD"

Another interesting bit was this,( if we start fiddling with our body's defenses we may stuff it up IMO)

"Importantly, influenza vaccination has been shown— by the Department of Defense, no less — to increase the risk of subsequent coronavirus infections by 36%. If we are to follow the science, as Osterholm says, then we should not be so quick to overlook such findings."


----------



## macca (23 September 2020)

macca said:


> Most of the so called smart people in medicine studiously avoiding the words "Vitamin D"
> 
> Overseas where 100 times as much private research is done there are ample studies showing that it is the closest thing we have to a silver bullet at this time
> 
> ...




I apologise for not putting any of the above quotes in quotation marks

Thought I might put up another one about Vitamin D, this one from Ireland

<<    What are the rates of deficiency in older adults in Ireland*1?
• 47% of all adults aged >85 are deficient in winter (31,480)
• 27%  of the over 70s who are ‘cocooning’ are likely to be deficient (115,536
• 1 in 8 (13%) adults over 55 are deficient (149,049) all year

https://tilda.tcd.ie/publications/reports/pdf/Report_Covid19VitaminD.pdf


----------



## satanoperca (23 September 2020)

macca said:


> I apologise for not putting any of the above quotes in quotation marks
> 
> Thought I might put up another one about Vitamin D, this one from Ireland
> 
> ...




Those stats are interesting, however, has the trend changed over the last 50 years for those age groups.

And what about those under < 50years of age.


----------



## macca (23 September 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Those stats are interesting, however, has the trend changed over the last 50 years for those age groups.
> 
> And what about those under < 50years of age.




It was actually a study of the health of older people.

What I found interesting is that older people, particularly those in homes, have been studied and found to be Vitamin D deficient at a much higher rate than average

Covid is smashing the very same group of people throughout the world.

Should we expect that all people in confined housing be given a Vitamin D pill a day, much cheaper than  ICU care


----------



## satanoperca (23 September 2020)

macca said:


> It was actually a study of the health of older people.
> 
> What I found interesting is that older people, particularly those in homes, have been studied and found to be Vitamin D deficient at a much higher rate than average
> 
> ...



Cost of vitamin D pills, Say $50 per annum, seems good insurance to me against ICU beds at $1,000's a day.

How would of thought, that the human body needs sunlight. I am sure that as we evolved as a species we did not spend some much time away from sunlight.


----------



## macca (23 September 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Cost of vitamin D pills, Say $50 per annum, seems good insurance to me against ICU beds at $1,000's a day.
> 
> How would of thought, that the human body needs sunlight. I am sure that as we evolved as a species we did not spend some much time away from sunlight.




If we think back to before we had antibiotics, it was very common for people in hospitals to be sitting in wheelchairs out in the grounds or on verandahs in the sunshine.

I recall seeing many photos from after both world wars of wounded people all sitting out in the sun


----------



## satanoperca (24 September 2020)

macca said:


> If we think back to before we had antibiotics, it was very common for people in hospitals to be sitting in wheelchairs out in the grounds or on verandahs in the sunshine.
> 
> I recall seeing many photos from after both world wars of wounded people all sitting out in the sun




When I came out of the coma in 2000, they used to put me in a wheel chair everyday and take me out into the gardens at Fairfield Infectious Diseases hospital in Vic every day for a few hours. Not direct sunlight, as I was a white as a ghost due to no sunlight for 3months on my skin.

Can still remember how good it felt and how it lifted my spirits.


----------



## sptrawler (24 September 2020)

macca said:


> If we think back to before we had antibiotics, it was very common for people in hospitals to be sitting in wheelchairs out in the grounds or on verandahs in the sunshine.
> 
> I recall seeing many photos from after both world wars of wounded people all sitting out in the sun



So true, on the same subject my wife has had a lot of issues with skin cancer so completely covers up and wears a huge hat when out, her latest blood test showed a deficiency in vitamin D. 
She walks or rides a bicycle all day, so it shows that you do actually have to get some sun, she has started walking in the morning in short sleeves just keeps going after dropping the grandkids off at school.


----------



## sptrawler (24 September 2020)

People in U.K don't appear to be concerned about the second wave.








						'Unbelievable' crowds at popular selfie spot ignore second wave horror
					

Tourists appear undeterred by a sweeping second wave of infection that looks set to eclipse the UK's first wave.




					au.news.yahoo.com


----------



## macca (24 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> So true, on the same subject my wife has had a lot of issues with skin cancer so completely covers up and wears a huge hat when out, her latest blood test showed a deficiency in vitamin D.
> She walks or rides a bicycle all day, so it shows that you do actually have to get some sun, she has started walking in the morning in short sleeves just keeps going after dropping the grandkids off at school.




Also happened in my family, plays golf three times a week, walks most other days, both always with sunscreen, Doc says go and buy a bottle of Vit D, you are underdone.


----------



## DB008 (24 September 2020)

*Australia's just signed up for a shot at nine COVID-19 vaccines.

Here's what to expect*​
Australia's $123 million contribution to a global vaccine initiative, announced earlier this week, means the country would have access to a wider pool of COVID-19 vaccines, should they pass clinical trials.​​The agreement with the World Health Organisation-backed COVAX initiative currently covers nine vaccines, with another nine being considered. These are to be shared with other member countries, rich and poor, by the end of 2021.​​However, the agreement may only cover up to half the doses Australia needs, if each person needs two doses. So countries are still free to negotiate their own vaccine deals with individual manufacturers, as Australia has done.​​Here's what you need to know about the nine vaccines COVAX is currently backing, which are at various stages of development.​​These include pre-clinical animal testing and human clinical trials, which move through three phases. During the pandemic, some of these phases have been combined.​
*1. INO-4800 comes with a zap*​*2. Moderna's mRNA-1273 is in phase 3*​*3. Germany's CVnCoV may have one or two doses*​*4. TMV-083 uses a version of the measles vaccine*​*5. AZD1222, the Oxford vaccine*​*6. Modified flu vaccine delivered up the nose*​*7. NVX-CoV2373 was tested in Australia*​*8. SCB-2019 is another protein subunit vaccine*​*9. University of Queensland's 'molecular clamp' vaccine*​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...or-shot-at-nine-coronavirus-vaccines/12698082​
Given the choice, l'd go Moderna (Number 2). Not sure if we will get a choice...





​


----------



## satanoperca (25 September 2020)

DB008 said:


> ​Given the choice, l'd go Moderna (Number 2). Not sure if we will get a choice...
> ​




I will not be taking any vaccine for many years, until well and truly tested on others.

I find it hard to see how the can force it on a population, they maybe able to make it mandatory if working in the old age sector.


----------



## noirua (26 September 2020)

Includes coronavirus comments...


----------



## Knobby22 (27 September 2020)

This made me laugh.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (28 September 2020)

getting in ahead of the celebration

from Johns Hopkins count, as at 28 Sept 20020








						Home - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

Johns Hopkins experts in global public health, infectious disease, and emergency preparedness have been at the forefront of the international response to COVID-19.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu
				





Global Confirmed
32,977,556
Global Deaths
*996,309*
U.S. Confirmed
7,113,666
U.S. Deaths
204,750

As Stalin said "_*One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic*_".


----------



## moXJO (28 September 2020)

Cancer is at about 9.6 million deaths a year?

Wish we spent as much and had the same urgency sorting that out.


----------



## macca (28 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> Cancer is at about 9.6 million deaths a year?
> 
> Wish we spent as much and had the same urgency sorting that out.




Yes, it really is becoming farcical, many years, many deaths, much research but people are still dying.

there have been a number of news items where people with cancer have been denied new drugs that work OS but not PBS here in OZ

In the meantime, we bankrupt the country and jeopardize the future of our children and grandchildren because we refuse to admit that Asia knows more than us about China viruses

Repeated studies OS show that Vitamin D is a game changer with Covid, not a squeak from a pollie or in the media here.


----------



## basilio (29 September 2020)

*Coronavirus death toll hits 1 million. These 10 charts begin to tell the story of loss*

The biggest pandemic in 100 years has notched up another milestone: a million deaths around the world.

The death toll hit 100,000 in mid April as the virus took hold in Europe, and 500,000 in late June.

Most of the dead have been older people. A review published in Nature in late August concluded that mortality climbs after 50 and climbs steeply after 60.









						A million lives lost, billions left worse off in its wake: The pandemic in 10 charts
					

The biggest pandemic in 100 years has now claimed the lives of 1 million people around the world.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (29 September 2020)

This explains why the US under Trump is not going to bring COVID under control.

*White House coronavirus task force rift deepens*

A rift is deepening between longtime US health officials coordinating the coronavirus response and Scott Atlas, a doctor and conservative commentator recently brought onto the team by Donald Trump.

In an interview on Monday, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious director, Anthony Fauci, said he is concerned the president’s new task force pick is spreading misinformation and implied he does not work with the other health officials.
The interview comes after Fauci was noticeably absent from the president’s Covid briefing, as was the response coordinator, Deborah Birx. Present instead was Atlas, a conservative commentator whose views are more aligned with Trump’s and who praised the president’s coronavirus response.

*Earlier this month, a group of 98 medical experts including immunologists and infectious disease physicians signed a letter condemning “the falsehoods and misrepresentations of science recently fostered by Dr Scott Atlas”.*

Fauci said he shared these concerns regarding Atlas spreading misleading and incorrect information.
“Well yeah, I’m concerned that sometimes things are said that are really taken either out of context or actually incorrect,” Fauci said.
The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention director, Robert Redfield, has also expressed concerns about Atlas, and was overheard on a phone call saying “everything he says is false” which he later confirmed was about Atlas.

Specifically he is concerned Atlas is feeding misinformation to Trump about the concept of herd immunity – that if enough people are infected with coronavirus the numbers will stabilize – and young people’s susceptibility to the virus. Atlas is also against severe lockdowns and mask usage. These views ware at odds with those backed by science and promoted by the likes of Fauci and Birx.

Fauci also noted in a CNN interview that as the 2020 presidential election approaches, the coronavirus response has received less attention. “We’re meeting now on an average of one and at the most two times a week,” Fauci said.








						Netherlands reports record case rise – as it happened
					

This blog is now closed. Follow the latest updates at our new blog below: Coronavirus news – live




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## DB008 (30 September 2020)

Sweden today , no masks , life as normal .. Lovely to see .. The energy is great .. Sorry if this upsets people .. #anotherway #sheepnomore


​


----------



## satanoperca (30 September 2020)

DB008 said:


> Sweden today , no masks , life as normal .. Lovely to see .. The energy is great .. Sorry if this upsets people .. #anotherway #sheepnomore
> 
> 
> ​





This cannot be true (sic) and approach to dealing with a situation based on knowledge and science and not fear. Who woulda thought it could work.


----------



## basilio (3 October 2020)

On at least two occasions I opened the question what would be the effect of a COVID infected person mingling at a wedding/funeral/party /public event.

*The current crisis with Donald Trump is an ongoing example of how this will play out.*

At this stage, and its only a week old, the  Whitehouse Rose Garden ceremony to celebrate the nomination of Amy Comey Barret to fill the vacant Supreme Court position has thrown up 7 infections.  There are still fundraisers, the Cleveland Rally and general interaction with people since then which have spread the infection further.





Top


----------



## basilio (3 October 2020)

Trumps confidence about not being vulnerable to COVID


----------



## Knobby22 (4 October 2020)

In the Age today, an article states the suicide rate has not risen during the pandemic but the cases of anorexia nervosa has. Its not official so a grain of salt but interesting.


----------



## cynic (4 October 2020)

No increase in suicide rate!!

Yeah right!!

Try explaining that to the 29 people I already know about (and god only knows how many others across the entirety of Melbourne) !

Oh that's right, you'll need the assistance of a Ouija board when doing so because those people are now, despite media reports to the contrary, dead!!!!


----------



## moXJO (4 October 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> In the Age today, an article states the suicide rate has not risen during the pandemic but the cases of anorexia nervosa has. Its not official so a grain of salt but interesting.



I know lifeline was swamped?

Surprised the stats didn't rise.

Report here: https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...FjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2v9vCZBcoZTwvUXz9wB8M_


----------



## DB008 (4 October 2020)

Interesting is the '2nd wave' nuber of infections, but the death rate remains very low (compared to the first wave).

​


----------



## Knobby22 (4 October 2020)

DB008 said:


> Interesting is the '2nd wave' nuber of infections, but the death rate remains very low (compared to the first wave).
> 
> ​




As the video showed. In the first wave it was predominantly older people catching it. In the second wave it is predominantly under 25s catching it.
As the cases rise though all age groups sre effected. Come back in a months time with no actions and with the delay from catching it and death combined with increasing older people catching it, the deaths will be back.


----------



## Knobby22 (4 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> I know lifeline was swamped?
> 
> Surprised the stats didn't rise.
> 
> Report here: https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-08/Coroners%20Court%20Monthy%20Suicide%20Data%20Report%20-%20Report%201%20-%2027082020.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwih2b2M15nsAhVwzjgGHdjVCS4QFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2v9vCZBcoZTwvUXz9wB8M_



Thanks for that moxJo


----------



## DB008 (4 October 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> As the cases rise though all age groups sre effected. Come back in a months time with no actions and with the delay from catching it and death combined with increasing older people catching it, the deaths will be back.




Yeah, the next month will be very interesting.

I think there should be a 'go for it' shot - ie, if you are willing to take the risk and try a phase 3 vaccine - why not? I'm over this Covid-19 BS, lockdowns, masks, etc etc etc - if there was a option to take a vaccine that has so far proven itself in phase 3 trials with bugger all side effects, l would. Why not?


----------



## Knobby22 (4 October 2020)

DB008 said:


> Yeah, the next month will be very interesting.
> 
> I think there should be a 'go for it' shot - ie, if you are willing to take the risk and try a phase 3 vaccine - why not? I'm over this Covid-19 BS, lockdowns, masks, etc etc etc - if there was a option to take a vaccine that has so far proven itself in phase 3 trials with bugger all side effects, l would. Why not?



I am over it also.
But the phase 3 trials arnt done snd some of the vaccines will likely fail.
Cant speed it up.


----------



## moXJO (4 October 2020)

I wonder if it will lead to restrictions on people who don't get the vaccine, similar to kids and school?


----------



## IFocus (4 October 2020)

DB008 said:


> Yeah, the next month will be very interesting.
> 
> I think there should be a 'go for it' shot - ie, if you are willing to take the risk and try a phase 3 vaccine - why not? I'm over this Covid-19 BS, lockdowns, masks, etc etc etc - if there was a option to take a vaccine that has so far proven itself in phase 3 trials with bugger all side effects, l would. Why not?





Uummm hold off DB hearing there are a few problems as the vaccine's are messing with the immune system looking like there will be different vaccines for different age groups / risk groups it will work out but there are occurring adverse reactions (which is normal) but will take time to sort out who have the risks for each vaccine.


----------



## basilio (5 October 2020)

Excellent review of US vs South Korea response to COVID since Jan 2020. 

Done in a comic format but well detailed.








						WATCH: Trump ignored the science and his own experts on coronavirus — now he's tested positive for COVID-19, while more than 200,000 Americans have died
					






					www.businessinsider.com.au


----------



## satanoperca (5 October 2020)

basilio said:


> Excellent review of US vs South Korea response to COVID since Jan 2020.
> 
> Done in a comic format but well detailed.
> 
> ...



Got to love that video, brilliant, whether it is factually correct, I don't know, but its production is brilliant.


----------



## satanoperca (5 October 2020)

I feel for americans, but if they vote this lying ******** in again, they live in the swap trump created.


----------



## basilio (6 October 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Got to love that video, brilliant, whether it is factually correct, I don't know, but its production is brilliant.




The details of responses  to the COVID outbeak outlined in the video are  simple, public and easily checked.  No reason to believe they are incorrect.

The US response is damning at every point of the process.


----------



## basilio (6 October 2020)

The consequences of Trumps COVID infection  are still reverberating. Highlights how easily the virus can spread.
The interesting part will be seeing how people are affected.

*The 30 people who have tested positive in the Trump Covid outbreak*

A growing number of Trump's aides and allies are reporting positive results, raising concerns about the scope of the outbreak.









						The 35 people who have tested positive in the Trump Covid outbreak
					

A growing number of Trump's aides and allies are reporting positive results, raising concerns about the scope of the outbreak.




					www.politico.com


----------



## basilio (6 October 2020)

Talk about tempting fate... The guy has just gone home and is still drugged to the eyeballs with steroids , drug cocktails whatever and someone wants to do a victory lap on $100 coins.

*White House Gift Shop selling 'Trump Defeats COVID' commemorative coin*

The White House Gift Shop started selling a “Trump Defeats COVID” commemorative coin on Monday before the president returned to the White House from the hospital.

Anthony Giannini, the chairman of the White House Gift Shop (WHGS), designed the $100 coin as the final coin in a series for Trump’s first term. 

“When we at WHGS first heard the sad news of President Trump's positive COVID test, once again we had faith and prayed, yet we knew our President would find a way to knockout COVID in early rounds of this battle,” Giannini said. “President Trump, as you know, is a fan of boxing, and the new coin design features more than a hint of superhero qualities in history's most fascinating president.”









						White House Gift Shop selling 'Trump Defeats COVID' commemorative coin
					

The White House Gift Shop started selling a “Trump Defeats COVID” commemorative coin on Monday before the president returned to the White House from the hospital.




					thehill.com


----------



## satanoperca (6 October 2020)

Go and look at the fed budget, wow.


----------



## satanoperca (6 October 2020)

Talk about over reaction to a situation.

The war on communism
The war on drugs
The war on nuclear weapons unless you are the US
The war on terrorism
The war on a f---k virus, that kills the weak and the elderly and destroys the lives of the strong and fit

Can we just stop the fear-mongering

My children should not have to pay off the past mistakes of the govnuts.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> I wonder if it will lead to restrictions on people who don't get the vaccine, similar to kids and school?




Interesting comment. That could well be the case. No shot, no work, I can see it now.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 October 2020)

basilio said:


> “When we at WHGS first heard the sad news of President Trump's positive COVID test, once again we had faith and prayed, yet we knew our President would find a way to knockout COVID in early rounds of this battle,” Giannini said. “President Trump, as you know, is a fan of boxing, and the new coin design features more than a hint of superhero qualities in history's most fascinating president.”




We will see won't we ?

Rumour has it that he was so upbeat because he was stoked up on steroids.

We'll see how long it lasts, but I wish him no ill will medically at least.


----------



## bellenuit (6 October 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Rumour has it that he was so upbeat because he was stoked up on steroids.




If you look at the video where he takes off the mask (after the 1:10 mark), he is clearly struggling for breath, even though he has only walked up a few steps. He is still very sick, mentally and physically.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 October 2020)

bellenuit said:


> If you look at the video where he takes off the mask (after the 1:10 mark), he is clearly struggling for breath, even though he has only walked up a few steps. He is still very sick, mentally and physically.





Yep, he doesn't look well at all. After 10 days the virus kicks in and people go downhill fast.


----------



## bellenuit (6 October 2020)

Trump is far from out of the woods. Timeline of a colleague of his.....

Former Presidential Candidate Hermain Cain Coronavirus Timeline:
6/24: Attends Trump rally, maskless
7/2: Tests positive for Covid-19
7/10: Says he’s improving
7/15: Says his doctors seem happy
7/27: Says he’s really getting better
7/30: Dies


----------



## SirRumpole (6 October 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Trump is far from out of the woods. Timeline of a colleague of his.....
> 
> Former Presidential Candidate Hermain Cain Coronavirus Timeline:
> 6/24: Attends Trump rally, maskless
> ...




And he was 74, that rings a bell.


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Interesting comment. That could well be the case. No shot, no work, I can see it now.



That would be way to popular.


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, he doesn't look well at all. After 10 days the virus kicks in and people go downhill fast.



One would think he will be back in hospital fairly quickly, as you say 74 is not a good age to be getting the virus, strange his wife wasn't with him.


----------



## basilio (7 October 2020)

Saw this coin amongst scores of others on the White House Gift Shop catalogue.
Now I understand why "Trump beats COVID" was in fact a modest understatement...



#7 Coin, BE BOLD, FACE FEAR, THINK BIG, DONALD TRUMP, LIMITED EDITION - 1000 COINS, NUMBERED, CERTIFICATE, VELVET CASE,  Historic Moments in Global History Collection, Symbolizes the Genius Level Thinking & Proven Successes of President Donald J. Trump




​




  


​
​
 

Alternative Views:














​
 

​







 


 *Regular Price: $100.00 *

 
_Product Code: COIN7-CASE _​
                             Qty:


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2020)

basilio said:


> Saw this coin amongst scores of others on the White House Gift Shop catalogue.
> Now I understand why "Trump beats COVID" was in fact a modest understatement...
> 
> 
> ...



How many coins did you order Bas?


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> One would think he will be back in hospital fairly quickly, as you say 74 is not a good age to be getting the virus, strange his wife wasn't with him.



What will be most interesting, will be if he doesn't have a relapse and continues on with the election campaign. That will raise some conspiracy theories.


----------



## moXJO (7 October 2020)

basilio said:


> Saw this coin amongst scores of others on the White House Gift Shop catalogue.
> Now I understand why "Trump beats COVID" was in fact a modest understatement...
> 
> 
> ...



Love to see the sales numbers on these things.


----------



## basilio (7 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> Love to see the sales numbers on these things.



Be interesting to know if Donald  or one of his companies is getting a cut from the sales. 

If you go back over the previous mementos and knick knacks for sale they are at the  lower end of the price scale ($30/40 ) and have a general White House/US government  theme.
The Trump items have jumped to $100 and overwhelmingly focus on the achievements of the "Great Glorious Most Stable Genius" President.

I think Kim would approve..


----------



## basilio (7 October 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> And he was 74, that rings a bell.




Yeah.  The concerning part is the very rapid decline and death within a few days of apparently being ok.

I don't believe any of the doctors would accept that Trump is anywhere near better.The steroids are making him feel like King Kong but I don't believe there is evidence that the virus has abated yet.

Meanwhile half the White House staff are already off sick and the remainder  are desperately trying to avoid the same fate with a maskless, infectious Trump barking at everyone and crowing he has beat the virus. 

Only in Trumps world.


----------



## satanoperca (7 October 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Trump is far from out of the woods. Timeline of a colleague of his.....
> 
> Former Presidential Candidate Hermain Cain Coronavirus Timeline:
> 6/24: Attends Trump rally, maskless
> ...



Ouch


----------



## basilio (7 October 2020)

The starkly different impacts of COVID across wealth and privilege in the US.

Not only is Trump ignoring all of the ways in which he has gotten the best treatments available in the world, he is also creating a highly selective and discriminatory narrative – one that downplays the pandemic and paints his family’s Covid-19 experience as representative of all Americans. To propose bleach for others and expensive medical cocktails for yourself is the height of privilege. 









						Don't believe privilege affects Covid-19 outcomes? Trump is a case in point | Renee C Wurth
					

Disparities in treatment and outcomes for the coronavirus are stark, and fall along race and class lines. It’s no wonder why




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (7 October 2020)

*Why Herman Cain’s Death Hasn’t Changed People’s Perspective on COVID-19*









						Herman Cain's Death Didn't Change People's Perspective on COVID-19
					

Former Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain died on July 30, a month after he was diagnosed with COVID-19. Before his diagnosis, he had posted a photo of himself not wearing a mask at a June 20 rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, for President Trump.




					www.healthline.com


----------



## Miss Hale (8 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> Love to see the sales numbers on these things.




YUGE!


----------



## moXJO (8 October 2020)

Miss Hale said:


> YUGE!



BIGGEST EVER!!!


----------



## DB008 (9 October 2020)

*Covid: more than 80% of positive UK cases in study had no core symptoms*​
ONS survey said 86.1% of people between April and June had none of the main symptoms of coronavirus​​More than 80% of people who tested positive in a national coronavirus survey had none of the core symptoms of the disease the day they took the test, scientists say.​​The finding has prompted fears that future Covid-19 outbreaks will be hard to control without more widespread testing in the community to pick up “silent transmission”, particularly in universities and high-risk workplaces such as meat processing facilities.​​Researchers at UCL said 86.1% of infected people picked up by the Office for National Statistics Covid-19 survey between April and June had none of the main symptoms of the illness, namely a cough, or a fever, or a loss of taste or smell the day they had the test.​​Three quarters who tested positive had no notable symptoms at all, the scientists found when they checked whether people reported other ailments such as fatigue and breathlessness on the day of testing.​​Unlike coronavirus testing in the community which focuses on people with symptoms, the ONS infection survey routinely tests tens of thousands of households around the country whether the occupants have symptoms or not.​​“At the moment, the focus is on people who have symptoms, but if you are not catching all those who are asymptomatic or presymptomatic it may be really difficult to get outbreaks down in time, before they get out of control,” said Irene Petersen, an author on the study and professor of epidemiology and health informatics.​​While those who tested positive in the ONS survey may have gone on to develop a fever, cough or other common symptoms, Petersen believes there is a risk of “silent transmission” by people who are unaware they are infected.​​The study, reported in Clinical Epidemiology, analysed the symptoms described by more than 36,000 people who were tested between April and June. Only 115 tests came back positive and of those only 27 people, or 23.5%, had symptoms of any description.​​When the scientists narrowed the symptoms down to the main three for coronavirus infections, namely a cough, or a fever, or a loss of taste or smell, the number reporting the ailments fell to 16 or 13.9%.​​On the back of the findings, Petersen argues that universities and high-risk work places, such as meat processing facilities, should do regular testing to pick up people who may be infectious but are not displaying symptoms. She urged universities to ramp up testing capacity now so students could be tested through the autumn and crucially before they return home at Christmas. “Anybody who’s had students coming home at Christmas knows they often bring some sort of bug with them and this Christmas in particular they could bring Covid home and potentially seed new outbreaks,” she said.​

More on link below...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ive-cases-in-covid-study-had-no-core-symptoms​


----------



## satanoperca (9 October 2020)

DB008 said:


> More than 80% of people who tested positive in a national coronavirus survey had none of the core symptoms of the disease the day they took the test, scientists say.




Really, who would have thought, if most studied the data they would have found the same conclusion.

Sick of people being dumb and not appreciating they have a brain that works!


----------



## basilio (10 October 2020)

Excellent article on the effects of the drugs Donald Trump has been taking to treat COVID.  Everyone recognises the powerful short term effects of the steroid. If Trump "feels 20 years younger" it is only tempory - and because of the drugs.

*Donald Trump has finished his COVID-19 treatment, but has he recovered?*








						Will Donald Trump still feel 'incredible' now he's off steroids?
					

Donald Trump has been taking a cocktail of drugs to fight COVID-19. This is what the experts think will happen when the treatments wear off.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## bellenuit (10 October 2020)

basilio said:


> Excellent article on the effects of the drugs Donald Trump has been taking to treat COVID.  Everyone recognises the powerful short term effects of the steroid. If Trump "feels 20 years younger" it is only tempory - and because of the drugs.




A friend who was on the same drug posted this:

_Trump said he felt better than he had in 20 years. I received the same steroid Trump did after my acoustic neuroma surgery. Even though I had a hole cut in my skull, was vomiting frequently due to lack of balance, and had to learn to walk again, the steroids caused a wave of energy in me like nothing I had felt before. I wrote lengthy blogs, signed up for online classes, designed a NYT crossword puzzle, read several books a day—all boosted by the steroid, which also kept me awake 20-22 hours a day for 10 days. I felt invincible despite the surgery’s serious after effects to my body. I am seriously concerned for our world right now—more than usual—because our president is undergoing a euphoric chemical rush, an incredibly dangerous state to be in given his psychological disorders and ability to cause even more harm to humans than usual._


----------



## Gal1leo (11 October 2020)

I'm curious as to whether he's still been taking Hydroxychloroquine he was promoting so fervently in previous months?
Since he tested +ve, there's been nothing from him about it. Some studies suggest it may actually increase the mortality rate of COVID patients with serious cases.


----------



## macca (11 October 2020)

Us mugs should be running WHO, some of us said a very long time ago to mask up and carry on (just like the experts do, think Asia) and don't forget your daily Vitamin D

<<

The World Health Organisation has backflipped on its original COVID-19 stance after calling for world leaders to stop locking down their countries and economies.

Dr. David Nabarro from the WHO appealed to world leaders yesterday, telling them to stop “using lockdowns as your primary control method” of the coronavirus.
He also claimed that the only thing lockdowns achieved was poverty – with no mention of the potential lives saved.
“Lockdowns just have one consequence that you must never ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer,” he said.>>










						WHO backflips on virus stance by condemning lockdowns
					

The World Health Organisation has backflipped on its original COVID-19 stance after calling for world leaders to stop locking down their countries and economies.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## basilio (11 October 2020)

*Study Finds ‘Single Largest Driver’ of Coronavirus Misinformation: Trump*
Cornell University researchers analyzing 38 million English-language articles about the pandemic found that President Trump was the largest driver of the “infodemic.”









						Study Finds ‘Single Largest Driver’ of Coronavirus Misinformation: Trump (Published 2020)
					

Cornell University researchers analyzing 38 million English-language articles about the pandemic found that President Trump was the largest driver of the “infodemic.”




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## moXJO (11 October 2020)

macca said:


> Us mugs should be running WHO, some of us said a very long time ago to mask up and carry on (just like the experts do, think Asia) and don't forget your daily Vitamin D
> 
> <<
> 
> ...




Lefty minds explode.


----------



## IFocus (11 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> Lefty minds explode.





No just a higher death toll amongst Trump true believers, absolutely tragic.


----------



## moXJO (11 October 2020)

IFocus said:


> No just a higher death toll amongst Trump true believers, absolutely tragic.



Dan andrews disagrees.
Send your constituents broke and a higher death toll. Oh and lock em down like East Germany is back in style. Whens Palaszczuk building a wall. She ain't far off it.


----------



## IFocus (11 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> Dan andrews disagrees.
> Send your constituents broke and a higher death toll. Oh and lock em down like East Germany is back in style. Whens Palaszczuk building a wall. She ain't far off it.





Price of population not following the rules WA is booming.


----------



## moXJO (12 October 2020)

IFocus said:


> Price of population not following the rules WA is booming.



Financially?


----------



## sptrawler (12 October 2020)

Interesting development, may increase the pressure to cashless.








						Coronavirus Can Persist for Four Weeks on Banknotes, Study Finds
					

(Bloomberg) -- The new coronavirus may remain infectious for weeks on banknotes, glass and other common surfaces, according to research by Australia’s top biosecurity laboratory that highlights risks from paper currency, touchscreen devices and grab handles and rails.Scientists at the Australian...




					finance.yahoo.com


----------



## dutchie (12 October 2020)

Now this is a good idea.


----------



## basilio (12 October 2020)

*Atmosphere at Trump Rally described as "infectious"*







Excited Trump fans who flocked to the President’s first rally since being diagnosed with COVID-19 described the feeling in the stadium as ‘totally contagious’.

While some experts have expressed concerns about the President holding rallies so soon after being released from hospital, Trump supporters have been eager to see the man in the flesh.

First time rally-goer Brad Winterson said it’s hard not to get caught up in Trump Fever. “I was sceptical at first, but then Trump came on stage and started speaking and – wow! – it was just infectious. I’ve definitely caught the Trump bug!”

Others described the rally as ‘breathtaking’. “What a show. It took my breath away. As in, I’m literally struggling to breathe right now. I just love …  I just … sorry, I think I need to sit down,” Trump fan Jerry Panso said.

Trump will now spread himself across Florida, Iowa and Pennsylvania.









						Atmosphere At Trump Rally Described As ‘Infectious’
					

“What a show! It took my breath away. As in, I’m literally struggling to breathe right now".




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (12 October 2020)

Interesting article, regarding the contagious period of the virus.









						Live Updates: Trump Tests Positive For Coronavirus
					

President Trump says he and first lady Melania Trump have tested positive for the virus. Here is the latest news on their condition and what it means for the U.S. and the world.




					www.npr.org


----------



## moXJO (12 October 2020)

dutchie said:


> Now this is a good idea.




The only thing funnier then the video is the comments.


----------



## IFocus (12 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> Financially?





State government just posted a surplus for its budget, housing market is going stupid, gold mining exploration highest level ever, shops seem full, went to Joondalup the other day and it was crazy packed, only caveat is I don't know the numbers for job keeper / seeker in the state and how much that is propping things up.


----------



## moXJO (12 October 2020)

IFocus said:


> State government just posted a surplus for its budget, housing market is going stupid, gold mining exploration highest level ever, shops seem full, went to Joondalup the other day and it was crazy packed, only caveat is I don't know the numbers for job keeper / seeker in the state and how much that is propping things up.



How's the small business and restaurants doing?

Did the farmers get rain there?
Looks like a bumper crop here.


----------



## bellenuit (12 October 2020)

*Mortality in the U.S. was more than 280,000 higher during the first eight months of 2020 than any of the previous five years over the same period*

*








						Mortality in the U.S. was more than 280,000 higher during the first eight months of 2020 than any of the previous five years over the same period
					

Excess mortality is a measure of how many more deaths have occurred over a period of time as compared to the same period in previous years. During the first 34 weeks of 2020, 280,000 more people died than during the first 34 weeks of any of the five previous years. From March to August 2020, the...




					healthfeedback.org
				



*


----------



## moXJO (13 October 2020)

Time to take precautions in NSW again. A few cases getting away from authorities.


----------



## sptrawler (13 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> Time to take precautions in NSW again. A few cases getting away from authorities.



Yes, the last thing Australia needs, is a Victoria situation to develop in NSW.


----------



## satanoperca (13 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, the last thing Australia needs, is a Victoria situation to develop in NSW.



A situation that is based on fear and not science. What is the highest mortality rate in any country on this planet, less than 0.1%. How fast is the bacteria, humans invading the close eco environment we are distroying?
This is just a virus.


----------



## satanoperca (13 October 2020)

Sorry, I should have elaborated more.

How you perceive things is through the lens that you look at them.

So, us stupid arse, ignorant, primitive humans view things singularly, we all must survive, regardless of nature and natural forces.

So what happens if you are a shark or an orangutan, we bacteria (humans) are killing the environment and the animals and creatures that we require to survive, we are killing the planet, but a few humans die, we must shut down everything.


----------



## IFocus (13 October 2020)

moXJO said:


> How's the small business and restaurants doing?
> 
> Did the farmers get rain there?
> Looks like a bumper crop here.





I keep asking locally and everyone is pretty much normal not sure about the pubs and larger venues.

I surf and keep asking everyone who is in the water during the week "don't you have a job"  everyone is employed again its local Mandurah.

Some businesses are screaming about the border being closed particularly high end foreign tourist operators but Australians generally wont pay for their services anyway the South West has seen their best winter bookings rates ever and North West towns had to open oval's for the over flow, people were complaining in some towns of campers on street sides.

WA population is about 3 mil, 495K head to Bali each year alone then you have interstate travel holidays and other over seas destinations. Makes you wonder if anyone stayed home, anyways all that cash stays in WA hence we are likely to be pretty well off compared to other states.


----------



## moXJO (13 October 2020)

IFocus said:


> I keep asking locally and everyone is pretty much normal not sure about the pubs and larger venues.
> 
> I surf and keep asking everyone who is in the water during the week "don't you have a job"  everyone is employed again its local Mandurah.
> 
> ...



WA would be cheering that cash stays inside their border. I have noticed state rivalry is making a comeback.


----------



## cynic (14 October 2020)

An article highlighting some potential shortcomings when using RT-PCR assays for SARS-CoV-2 diagnoses:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30453-7/fulltext


----------



## Knobby22 (15 October 2020)

cynic said:


> An article highlighting some potential shortcomings when using RT-PCR assays for SARS-CoV-2 diagnoses:
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30453-7/fulltext



We had a false positive in Geelong recently. The Government was immediately suspicious and retested.

The advantage of low numbers of cases means the ability to detect false positives is enhanced.


----------



## noirua (17 October 2020)

Family Of 'Loved' Covid Doctor Paralysed On Ventilator Could Be Forced To Leave UK


----------



## cutz (18 October 2020)

Some interesting thoughts from Aussies over in Sweden.









						Australians in Sweden say the country is almost 'set up' for pandemic conditions
					

Everyone seems to have an opinion about Sweden's coronavirus strategy — so we asked Australians living in the Scandinavian nation what they thought about life there during the pandemic.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## bellenuit (18 October 2020)

cutz said:


> Some interesting thoughts from Aussies over in Sweden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A quote from the article: _As an added plus, Mr Keane said he thought Swedes' natural penchant for social distancing might also be working in their favour._

Heard a joke early on in the pandemic. When Swedes were told they had to keep 1.5 metres apart, some said -_ why so close_?


----------



## noirua (20 October 2020)

*Canada and US border closure extended for seventh time, now until November 21*








						Canada and US border closure extended for seventh time, now until November 21
					

The travel restriction has been in place since March, and has previously been extended six times.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## sptrawler (20 October 2020)

I don't know what has changed with W.A today, but there appeared to be a lot more flights out of Perth this morning, it appeared to be pre covid busy. 👍


----------



## DB008 (20 October 2020)




----------



## basilio (24 October 2020)

COVID situation across Europe, US in fact almost everywhere (except Australia.. China and some other Asian countries ) is now disastrous. 

Update from The Guardian is sombre.
*A summary of today's developments*


*The EU’s disease control agency joined health workers across* *Europe in sounding the alarm about the surge in coronavirus infections as the World Health Organization warned of an “exponential” rise in cases*. Several countries in Europe are reporting infection rates higher than during the first wave of the pandemic in March and April, with Spain saying it has now more than 3 million cases.
*Denmark is lowering the limit on public gatherings to 10 people from 50 and banning the sale of alcohol after 10pm to curb the spread of coronavirus*, prime minister Mette Frederiksen said.
*AstraZeneca has resumed the US trial of its experimental Covid-19 vaccine* after approval by US regulators, the company said. It was paused on 6 September after a report of a serious neurological illness, believed to be transverse myelitis, in a participant in the company’s UK trial.
*Dr Anthony Fauci, the US infectious disease expert, said the White House coronavirus task force’s meetings* have become less frequent, even as infections rise in dozens of US states.
*Covid-19 was the main cause of death for 543 people in Moscow in September, up 21% from August, the Russian capital’s* healthcare department said, as the spread of the coronavirus widened.
*Iran is planning new restrictions, including state employees working every other day in the capital Tehran*, after a record surge in coronavirus cases on Friday, a senior official said. Iran’s health ministry reported 6,134 new cases for the previous 24 hours, bringing the national tally to 556,891 in the Middle East’s hardest-hit country.
*Turkey will evaluate possible new measures to combat the spread of the coronavirus* as the outbreak flares nationwide, president Tayyip Erdoğan said.
*France’s* *second wave of coronavirus could be worse than the first*, the boss of Paris public hospital group AP-HP said on Friday as the country registered a record number of daily cases. With pressure on hospitals rising fast, France has expanded a 9pm to 6am curfew to cover 46 million people, more than two-thirds of its population.
*Italy registered 19,143 new coronavirus infections, a jump of more than 3,000 within the last 24 hours*. The northern Lombardy region, the worst hit region during the first wave of the pandemic, recorded almost 5,000 new cases while in Campania, in the south, there were 2,280.
*More than half a million people in the US could die from Covid-19 by the end of February next year,* but about 130,000 of those lives could be saved if everybody were to wear masks, according to estimates from a modelling study.
*In Portugal*, *face masks will have to be worn in crowded outdoor areas, the country’s parliament decided *on Friday, to contain the surge in coronavirus cases. The measure will be in place for at least 70 days and covers all residents aged 10 and over, who must wear masks outside when they cannot keep a physical distance from people.


----------



## basilio (24 October 2020)

Check out the graphs at Johns Hopkins for cumulative cases in various countries.
The last six weeks are  very grim.









						Cumulative Cases - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

How is the outbreak growing? Cumulative confirmed cases and deaths for the twenty most affected countries over time.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## basilio (26 October 2020)

US Covid  cases  out of control. Daily known infections have doubled in the last month









						United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## basilio (27 October 2020)

More details of the rapidly rising impact of COVID 19 in the US.








						COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations surge, governors crack down
					

Nearly half a million people have contracted COVID-19 in the United States over the last seven days, according to a Reuters tally, as new cases and hospitalizations set records in the Midwest.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## basilio (27 October 2020)

The Conversation has an excellent analysis of the Victorian/Australian successful efforts at combating COVID compared to many other similar countries. They point out that only a couple of months ago these countries had roughly the same number of infections per day - 500-700. Where are they now ?

It certainly strengthens the argument that, as painful, as the last  few  months have been, we have seen a very constructive outcome.

                           ERIK ANDERSON/AA
*  Finally at zero new cases, Victoria is on top of the world after unprecedented lockdown effort           *

If the past few months have been like a long-haul flight, Victorians are now standing in the aisles waiting for the cabin door to open, a little groggy and disoriented but relieved.

They have every right to be. No other place in the world has tamed a second wave this large. Few have even come close.









						Finally at zero new cases, Victoria is on top of the world after unprecedented lockdown effort
					

Victoria’s lockdown has been hard, but it now occupies a rare and envious position. As Victorians await new freedoms on the next step towards COVID-normal, they should feel a sense of accomplishment.




					theconversation.com


----------



## satanoperca (27 October 2020)

Only time will tell, if it has been fully effective.

Note : we still cannot travel more than 25kms, cross state borders, international travel a no no, stay in a hotel, go for a holiday, go to the pub. etc.


----------



## bellenuit (27 October 2020)

*Coronavirus: Antibodies fall rapidly after COVID infection, dashing hopes of herd immunity - study*

*








						Coronavirus: Antibodies fall rapidly after COVID infection, dashing hopes of herd immunity - study
					

Researchers find that the number of people with antibodies in their study fell by 26% since lockdown measures were relaxed.




					news.sky.com
				



*


----------



## macca (27 October 2020)

bellenuit said:


> *Coronavirus: Antibodies fall rapidly after COVID infection, dashing hopes of herd immunity - study*
> 
> *
> 
> ...




I did read that the T Cells seem to be providing protection for those who have had Covid.

They said that while Antibodies were not very strong the change in the  T cells is doing the same job.

Hopefully something works, we cannot keep locking down, we are going to just have to live with it among us.

Mask up in or avoid crowds, self isolate if sick, just copy Taiwan, no other option


----------



## satanoperca (28 October 2020)

Does anyone have any info (recent) on where this virus originated?

Seems to be out of the news or being sensored.


----------



## basilio (28 October 2020)

Challenging story on how COVID is overwhelming the Belgium medical facilities.

I have also posted the  huge increase in infections in the last few months.  
Again both Australia  (largely Victoria) and Belgium had roughly the same number of new daily cases in early August (around 500 ). Three months later Belgium has  15,000 plus new cases a day.

This reality is echoed around Europe.

*Doctors with COVID-19 continue to work as hospitals in Belgium buckle under pandemic*
Posted  40mminutes ago




 Foreign Minister Sophie Wilmes is among thousands of Belgians caught up in the country's second wave of COVID-19.(AP: Jean-Christophe Verhaegen)
Share


COVID-positive doctors and nurses are continuing to work in Belgian hospitals as a fresh wave of the pandemic creates an "impossible" situation for the country's medical system.
*Key points:*

Infected medical staff only treat patients who are also infected
The head of the Belgian Association of Medical Unions says sending doctors home "would be worse"
Inadequate testing and contact tracing, as well as the onset of cold weather, are fuelling the pandemic
The Government will convene on Friday local time to decide on a potential new national lockdown, with the country now suffering Europe's highest rate of coronavirus infections per 100,000 citizens.

The head of the Belgian Association of Medical Unions, Philippe Devos, said hospital staff infected with COVID-19 would only treat patients who were also infected with coronavirus, to limit the risk of spread.

"They must eat in a separate room [from healthy staff members] and they must not remove their masks during the shift," he told RN Breakfast.














						Belgium Coronavirus: 333,718 Cases and 10,899 Deaths - Worldometer
					

Belgium Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				












						Belgian hospitals forced into 'bad decision' of using doctors infected with COVID-19
					

COVID-positive doctors and nurses are continuing to work in Belgian hospitals as a fresh wave of the pandemic creates an "impossible" situation for the country's medical system.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## spooly74 (30 October 2020)

Can't make this **** up


----------



## spooly74 (30 October 2020)

More coin for a covid death?


----------



## macca (30 October 2020)

spooly74 said:


> More coin for a covid death?





I have read this before about the USA, medicine is so expensive that the hospitals put down all colds and flus as Covid to get the cash from the Govt.


----------



## bellenuit (30 October 2020)

macca said:


> I have read this before about the USA, medicine is so expensive that the hospitals put down all colds and flus as Covid to get the cash from the Govt.




If this were true to any great extent, then we would expect the total death rate in the US to be comparable with most other years. But it is vastly higher, even much higher than that attributed to COVID.

*279,700 extra deaths in the US so far in this pandemic year*









						279,700 extra deaths in the US so far in this pandemic year
					

Health statisticians keep careful tabs on how many people die every week. Based on what's happened in past years, they know what to expect – but 2020 death counts are surging beyond predictions.




					theconversation.com


----------



## spooly74 (30 October 2020)

bellenuit said:


> If this were true to any great extent, then we would expect the total death rate in the US to be comparable with most other years. But it is vastly higher, even much higher than that attributed to COVID.
> 
> *279,700 extra deaths in the US so far in this pandemic year*
> 
> ...



Data is from the CDC so would assume it's credible.

Covid related? lockdowns, stress, heart attacks, suicide, perhaps?


----------



## macca (30 October 2020)

This sort of "treatment" sure would not be helping the numbers
<<
During her time  there, most patients who entered the hospital wound up being treated for  COVID-19, whether they tested positive or not, and only one patient survived.  The hospital also failed to segregate COVID-positive and COVID-negative   patients, thereby ensuring maximum spread of the disease among noninfected  patients coming in with other health problems.
By ventilating  COVID-19-negative patients, the hospital artificially inflated the case load  and death rate. Disturbingly, financial   incentives appear to have been at play. According to Olszewski, the hospital  received $29,000 extra for a COVID-19 patient receiving ventilation, over and  above other treatments. In  August 2020, CDC director Robert Redfield admitted that hospital incentives likely elevated  hospitalization rates and death toll statistics around the country.>>


----------



## basilio (31 October 2020)

Reality check on COVID in US.









						'We're in a crisis stage': Texas border city reels from coronavirus surge
					

El Paso is dealing with triple the number of Covid cases of its previous peak and the health system is under strain




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (31 October 2020)

spooly74 said:


> View attachment 113949
> View attachment 113950
> 
> 
> Can't make this **** up



Cuomo and his brother are high level flogs


----------



## wayneL (1 November 2020)

Hmmmm


----------



## orr (1 November 2020)

DB008 said:


> I spoke to a former work colleague yesterday, who lives in Sweden. It's basically business as usual. They are already at the end of the tunnel, Covid is pretty much over, over there. We are still trying to find the light at the end of the tunnel (in state lockdown and whatnot), let alone see it.




You still speaking to that 'former work colleage' DB?
Looks to be another of those 'lights and tunnels and on coming train' moments.

I'll hazard a guess we'll hear far less from the Swedish spukers of a few short months back on it's ahhh, light to lead from 'tunnels' and other virus related successes...  

Trondhiem or Helsinki anyone?


----------



## basilio (1 November 2020)

The explosion of COVID in Europe, the US, India etc is beyond alarming.  The steep rises in infections  in the past month are also being reflected in rising death rates. 
















						Coronavirus Update (Live): 46,482,200 Cases and 1,201,759 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer
					

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## noirua (1 November 2020)




----------



## noirua (1 November 2020)

Happiness in a coronavirus environment - the way to handle the downside.








						How to find happiness during a pandemic: 'I care less about pleasure and more about wisdom'
					

Happiness during the stress and uncertainty of COVID-19 can seem elusive. Here's how scientists, writers, comedians, a yoga teacher and others are finding glimmers of it.




					www.cnet.com


----------



## wayneL (2 November 2020)

Getting ever more clearer that lockdowns are a mistake.


----------



## Knobby22 (2 November 2020)

wayneL said:


> Getting ever more clearer that lockdowns are a mistake.




Those countries weren't in lockdown. Hence the rise and being forced into lockdown this week in the case of the UK.

Sweden went into effective lock down 2 days ago after a big spike in cases. Being socialist though they just asked nicely without police intervention. 
Also Sweden is 85% larger than the UK with only 10 million population vs 65 mil UK and also has less porous borders so of course spread is reduced.

So getting more clearer that lockdowns are necessary.


----------



## wayneL (2 November 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Those countries weren't in lockdown. Hence the rise and being forced into lockdown this week in the case of the UK.
> 
> Sweden went into effective lock down 2 days ago after a big spike in cases. Being socialist though they just asked nicely without police intervention.
> Also Sweden is 85% larger than the UK with only 10 million population vs 65 mil UK and also has less porous borders so of course spread is reduced.
> ...



This is the problem with "damn lies and statistics".

*Stockholm* has a *population density* of 5,203/km², very similar to *London's* at 5,701/km².


----------



## DB008 (2 November 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Being socialist though they just asked nicely without police intervention.




Sort of true....

​


----------



## Knobby22 (2 November 2020)

wayneL said:


> This is the problem with "damn lies and statistics".
> 
> *Stockholm* has a *population density* of 5,203/km², very similar to *London's* at 5,701/km².




I agree, lies and statistics.  Population of Stockholm 807,000, population of London 9.3 million.

No comparison. It's 500,000 less people than Adelaide (1.3 mil). Much easier for most of the country to naturally social distance. 9 million of the people do not live in Stockholm and are spread along this large country.

Back to the original post, those countries graphs shown weren't in lockdown. Hence the rise and being forced into lockdown this week in the case of the UK.

So how is that you can say lockdowns are a mistake? Feel free to use the UK as an example as we are all more aware of what's going on.


----------



## wayneL (2 November 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I agree, lies and statistics.  Population of Stockholm 807,000, population of London 9.3 million.
> 
> No comparison. It's 500,000 less people than Adelaide (1.3 mil). Much easier for most of the country to naturally social distance. 9 million of the people do not live in Stockholm and are spread along this large country.
> 
> ...



Following a few different sources may help. I'll leave that to you.


----------



## wayneL (2 November 2020)

The things that make you go hmmmm:

Just been to a brand new client who reported that her and her husband both had covid back in April, but here's the kind of weird thing.

He tested *positive* and was virtually asymptomatic.

She tested *negative* several times, but had all the typical symptoms and was unwell for 6 weeks.

Don't ask me what that means, if anything, but I just thought it interesting.


----------



## Belli (2 November 2020)

Belgium makes the others look really good.


----------



## wayneL (2 November 2020)

Belli said:


> Belgium makes the others look really good.



I think that has been Belgium's role in the world for quite some time now


----------



## DB008 (3 November 2020)

orr said:


> You still speaking to that 'former work colleage' DB?




Just messaged him. He sees no change in Sweden where he is (Malmo), but his friend who works at the hospital says more people are coming in with Covid-19. The death rate seems to have not changed that much, but the latest was 9, so it could be a new trend (upwards), or just a spike.










https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/



.​


----------



## basilio (3 November 2020)

Perhaps the relevant information re COVID in Sweden is the number of infections. Deaths  are a lagging indicator and in any case do not reflect the full impact of the illness.














						Sweden COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Sweden Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## basilio (3 November 2020)

Excellent story on how Uruguay has achieved an exceptionally good outcome with COVID.

Sounds like a great little place to live as well.









						One South American country has had fewer than 100 deaths, while its neighbours have reached 100,000s
					

Uruguay has a rolling number of just over 3,000 confirmed cases and 59 total recorded deaths — the lowest mortality rate in Latin America. So how did the nation defy the odds? Hayley Henderson explains.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (4 November 2020)

Weekend at Bernie's?


----------



## satanoperca (4 November 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Weekend at Bernie's?
> View attachment 114205



Is this fake news, surely it cannot be real?


----------



## Knobby22 (4 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Is this fake news, surely it cannot be real?



Real. I checked it. Look up his name.


----------



## satanoperca (4 November 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Real. I checked it. Look up his name.



If that is the case, whoever wins, USA is f---kd. China wins


----------



## noirua (5 November 2020)

November 4 coronavirus news
					

The coronavirus pandemic has brought countries to a standstill. In many places, as countries reopen, Covid-19 cases are on the rise.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## bellenuit (5 November 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Weekend at Bernie's?
> View attachment 114205




I presume it could still be above board? It was too late to get a replacement candidate and the electorate still preferred him to his opponents. I presume they will just run another ballot once the seat is officially vacated through death?


----------



## Knobby22 (5 November 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I presume it could still be above board? It was too late to get a replacement candidate and the electorate still preferred him to his opponents. I presume they will just run another ballot once the seat is officially vacated through death?



Yes, he was on the ticket and still got voted in. I am sure there is a constitutional way of dealing with it. Just found it amusing.


----------



## wayneL (5 November 2020)




----------



## DB008 (8 November 2020)

*Genomic epidemiology of novel coronavirus - Global subsampling*


https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global



.​


----------



## basilio (8 November 2020)

DB008 said:


> *Genomic epidemiology of novel coronavirus - Global subsampling*
> 
> 
> https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global
> ...




Well that was interesting !! Nice find

Some promising news on T cell immunity developed in people exposed to COVID.








						T-cell Covid immunity 'present in adults six months after first infection'
					

Study suggests white blood cell levels higher in people who had symptoms




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (8 November 2020)

One of the more worrying facts which has been published this week has been the spread of Covid-19 in to an animal population in Denmark - Mink.

The correct procedure has been followed in culling them. However this may be the tip of the iceberg with the virus entering animal populations, mutating and then re-infecting humans with more virulence.

gg


----------



## basilio (9 November 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of the more worrying facts which has been published this week has been the spread of Covid-19 in to an animal population in Denmark - Mink.
> 
> The correct procedure has been followed in culling them. However this may be the tip of the iceberg with the virus entering animal populations, mutating and then re-infecting humans with more virulence.
> 
> gg




Certainly creating concern about the virus getting out of control.
Excellent analysis on the problem in Denmark. 
As a side point check out the explosion in COVID cases in Denmark in the last few weeks.












						Mink and coronavirus: what's happened and should we be worried?
					

Sars-CoV-2 has jumped from humans, mutated and crossed back to cause new infections




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SirRumpole (10 November 2020)

Lockdowns in Victoria had no effect on suicide rate says Coroner.

Looks like anecdotal evidence can be inaccurate.









						No spike in suicides in Victoria during COVID-19 lockdowns, coroners court figures show
					

Victoria's lockdown has not yet seen a spike in suicides, but mental health experts warn we're not out of the woods.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## cynic (10 November 2020)

When first hand observations are at variance to publicised statistics, I generally consider it wiser to doubt the published data, lest I find myself enlisted in a certain useful army.


----------



## satanoperca (10 November 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Lockdowns in Victoria had no effect on suicide rate says Coroner.
> 
> Looks like anecdotal evidence can be inaccurate.
> 
> ...



I have known of 5 friends that have committed suicide in the last 35 years, 2 of them are in the last 6months.


----------



## basilio (11 November 2020)

COVID cases and hospitalization in US accelerating.  Election rallies and in person voting associated with increased numbers .









						Seventh straight day of 100,000 new US Covid cases as hospitalizations hit a high point
					

Biden adviser Michael Osterholm says numbers could double as data shows death toll above 238,000 after 590 new deaths




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## greggles (13 November 2020)

I don't see how COVID-19 can now be stopped any other way than via a vaccine. Globally, we are now hitting 600,000 new COVID-19 cases a day. How is it possible to contain that sort of spread?

Until a vaccine that works is found, I think COVID-19 will continue to rip through the world's population unimpeded and I expect that we will see one million daily new cases globally by Christmas.

As the Northern Hemisphere heads into winter, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the death rate will spike even further.

The worst is far from over. We could, in reality, be right at the beginning of this large scale human and economic disaster. I don't think it's out of the question to expect 50 million to 100 million deaths in the next 12 to 18 months if an effective vaccine can't be developed in time to stop the continuing spread of this virus.


----------



## wayneL (13 November 2020)

I want to go on record as thinking the proposition of 50 to 100 million deaths as a direct consequence of covid-19 (ie no other serious comorbidities) as absolutely ludicrous.

It would mean an overall death rate of 1 to 1 and a half percent if every single person on the planet caught it.

That is not what the data is showing us.


----------



## greggles (13 November 2020)

wayneL said:


> I want to go on record as thinking the proposition of 50 to 100 million deaths as a direct consequence of covid-19 (ie no other serious comorbidities) as absolutely ludicrous.




Let's assume an average mortality rate of 2%, which I think is fair. 2.5 billion infections should result in at least 50 million deaths. COVID-19 would need to be able to spread unchecked in the absence of a vaccine and with unchanged mortality rates.

I don't think a third of the world's population being eventually infected in those circumstances is out of the realm of possibilities. Infections are already in excess of 53,000,000 and that is *known* infections. Deaths are at 1.3 million. The infection rate appears to be accelerating.

If the USA, which is a first world country, can't stop COVID-19 from spreading unchecked, what hope does the developing world have?

I may be a little pessimistic, but we're dealing with a lot of unknowns here and a worst case scenario (which could include continual viral mutation and re-infection) could be much worse than we want to believe.


----------



## basilio (13 November 2020)

greggles said:


> If the USA, which is a first world country, can't stop COVID-19 from spreading unchecked, what hope does the developing world have?




Really ?  The US could have controlled the spread of COVID much more effectively than it did. It was purely  the political decision by the Trump to undermine all the advice and preparation the had in favour of , essentially, ignoring the problem.

In terms of stopping the virus from spreading there have been successes with China, Taiwan, Sth Korea, Uruguay, Australia , New Zealand demonstrating that the virus is containable. It is contagious but clearly can be stopped.

I found this analysis of COVID transmission to be useful








						What A Summer Of COVID-19 Taught Scientists About Indoor vs. Outdoor Transmission
					

Here we are, almost eight months into this pandemic, and it’s like you can’t even invite more than 150 people to sit next to each other unmasked in your rose ga…




					fivethirtyeight.com


----------



## greggles (13 November 2020)

basilio said:


> Really ?  The US could have controlled the spread of COVID much more effectively than it did. It was purely  the political decision by the Trump to undermine all the advice and preparation the had in favour of , essentially, ignoring the problem.
> 
> In terms of stopping the virus from spreading there have been successes with China, Taiwan, Sth Korea, Uruguay, Australia , New Zealand demonstrating that the virus is containable. It is contagious but clearly can be stopped.
> 
> ...




USA: This is a discussion about what has happened. Not what may have happened. The reality is that COVID-19 is out of control in the USA.

China: Frankly, I don't believe anything the CCP says. They are an authoritarian regime that cannot be trusted and I'm of the view that their numbers are not accurate.

Australia & NZ: Isolated islands with relatively small populations.

Taiwan: Island.

South Korea: Done well, but cases are starting to spike there again.

Uruguay: That's great to hear.

Meanwhile COVID-19 is tearing through India, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Colombia, Russia, Ukraine, and most of Europe including the UK.

It is very clear that globally the curve is nowhere close to being flattened.


----------



## wayneL (13 November 2020)

I don't think a 2% mortality rate is a fair assumption at all when the data is analysed without bias, especially seeing in many have those deaths covid-19 causative or at least not the main causative factor.

This is making the true average mortality difficult to determine, but I would stake  my last dollar that it is massively lower than 2%, and quite happy to go on record here as saying so.


----------



## satanoperca (13 November 2020)

wayneL said:


> I don't think a 2% mortality rate is a fair assumption at all when the data is analysed without bias, especially seeing in many have those deaths covid-19 causative or at least not the main causative factor.
> 
> This is making the true average mortality difficult to determine, but I would stake  my last dollar that it is massively lower than 2%, and quite happy to go on record here as saying so.



Taking a wild guess it is about the same as the Flu. So we are back to where we started.

I hoped it was greater than 2%, it might save humans from extinction, to many of us occupying the same environment. Time to cull the bacteria/virus - humans for the sake of the other millions of life forms that need this planet to survive.


----------



## greggles (13 November 2020)

Fair enough. We shall see how things turn out. Personally, I hope that we don't get anywhere near 50 million dead. Much will depend on whether or not we get a successful vaccine. I hope we do. I have no interest in suffering, death, and economic destruction.

But in the absence of a vaccine I remain very pessimistic as to the eventual outcome.


----------



## macca (13 November 2020)

Finally someone is actually talking about Vitamin D, (according to research it does work)
You may need to refresh your screen for this to load

Hopefully this will be adopted here, surely telling people to get more sunshine on their skin should be an easy sell and free supplements for people stuck indoors or with other illnesses seems cheap and easy.

The deafening silence from our "medical experts" continues

*UK’s Prime Minister considers handing out free vitamin D in coronavirus fight*
05-Nov-2020 By Will Chu

HTTPS://WWW.NUTRAINGREDIENTS.COM/ARTICLE/2020/11/04/UK-S-PM-MAY-PROVIDE-FREE-VITAMIN-D-IN-CORONAVIR


----------



## macca (13 November 2020)

From USA

<< COVID-19 has a survival rate of 99.99% for those under the age of 40. Even people over the age of 60 who aren’t residents of nursing homes have a survival rate of 98.29%, yet residents in many areas are now told, in great detail, how they can and cannot celebrate their holidays >>









						How Would You Prefer to Spend Your Last Thanksgiving?
					

COVID-19 rules could be putting a damper on Thanksgiving festivities this year; California, for example, recently released a list of killjoy rules for the holidays.




					articles.mercola.com


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (13 November 2020)

greggles said:


> Fair enough. We shall see how things turn out. Personally, I hope that we don't get anywhere near 50 million dead. Much will depend on whether or not we get a successful vaccine. I hope we do. I have no interest in suffering, death, and economic destruction.
> 
> But in the absence of a vaccine I remain very pessimistic as to the eventual outcome.



I'm not as positive as you that a vaccine will have sufficient effectiveness and uptake to make a difference to the course of the Covid-19 Pandemic. 

And that is without considering that it is not outwith a possibility that we may have to deal with a Covid-20 or 21. 

As regards the economic versus disease toll on the population I am agnostic and prefer to hear everyone's point of view, though I tend towards the traditional public health measures that Australia and NZ have adopted, thus far with success. 

Overpopulation as @satanoperca mentioned is a major cause of the continuation if not the root cause of this pandemic.

gg


----------



## satanoperca (13 November 2020)

greggles said:


> Fair enough. We shall see how things turn out. Personally, I hope that we don't get anywhere near 50 million dead. Much will depend on whether or not we get a successful vaccine. I hope we do. I have no interest in suffering, death, and economic destruction.
> 
> But in the absence of a vaccine I remain very pessimistic as to the eventual outcome.



As hard as it might sound, 50M deaths of humans is not going to save the planet from the destruction we have inflicted on the planet that provides us with life. 

It all depends on the lenses that we use to perceive what is happening. 

At a universal level: 2% of a population/species/humans destruction is nothing.

It depends on the lenses you are looking at things.

We have removed 85% of the lungs/forests of the planet - the eco system requires them for balance
We have seen in the last 100 years more extinctions of species in record with exception of the dinosaurs, without blinking a eye lid.
We have robbed the seas of anything we can consume.
We are just a virus on the earth.
2% is hardly worth noting in time.


----------



## IFocus (13 November 2020)

The mortality rate as long as everyone gets treated is quite low but higher than the flu.

If health systems get overwhelmed then 1% to 2% is likely a reasonable target.


----------



## basilio (14 November 2020)

Story on COVID in US getting grimmer and grimmer.  New cases reaching 180k a day and climbing.  Multiple states  reaching the end of their hospital capacity.  Still no substantial changes in mask wearing, reduction in public meetings or activities.









						US officials warn of tens of thousands more Covid deaths in coming weeks
					

CDC warning of comes amid threat of PPE and hospital bed shortages, as recorded daily coronavirus cases continue to increase




					www.theguardian.com
				











						November 13 coronavirus news
					






					edition.cnn.com


----------



## basilio (16 November 2020)

US COVID crisis updates on ABC. Scary lesson in what happens when  there is no effort at stopping people mixing and passing on infections.

_At the centre of the nation's burgeoning crisis are the Dakotas.

Per capita, North Dakota continues to lead the United States in daily infections, with one in every 83 residents testing positive for the virus in just the past week,.

During the same period, the state averaged more than 1,200 cases per day — an increase of 58 per cent from the average two weeks prior.

Across the border, South Dakota — which has emerged as having the nation's second-worse rate of new infections per capita — experienced a 110 per cent increase in deaths over a two-week period.

Alarmingly, almost 55 per cent of tests conducted during a similar period returned a positive result, despite the state's refusal to implement stay-at-home orders or to adopt a mask mandate (The World Health Organisation has recommended governments ensure rates of positivity remain at 5 per cent or lower for "at least 14 days" before reopening).

While the root cause of the resurgence is complex, a motorcycle rally in Sturgis, South Dakota is believed to be linked to as many as 260,000 new cases since the beginning of August.

But experts point to another more overarching issue: complacency.









						America's coronavirus crisis is accelerating, with one state having half of all tests come back positive
					

As daily coronavirus cases hit an all-time high, and with winter fast approaching, it is yet to be seen if the United States can get on top of the record-breaking wave of infections gripping the nation.




					www.abc.net.au
				



_


----------



## satanoperca (16 November 2020)

But it is just going to disappear, we have turned the corner and IF
we havn't I will have a vaccine available sometime in the future except for those in NC.


----------



## sptrawler (16 November 2020)

The vaccine sounds interesting 90% effective, what does that really mean? 1 in 10 still get the virus?


----------



## bellenuit (16 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The vaccine sounds interesting 90% effective, what does that really mean? 1 in 10 still get the virus?




I think so. I think it means that only 1 in 10 people exposed to the virus and who are vaccinated will get it. 

But it is far better than that. If everyone who can gets vaccinated, then herd immunity would come into play, so for the 1 in 10 for whom it doesn't work and for the others who cannot be vaccinated for whatever reason, it is less likely they will come into contact with infected people and will be thus less susceptible to infection. That's my take, but I'm no expert.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 November 2020)

I assume most ASF members won't have flown anywhere recently so some comments from my recent experiences:

Adelaide > Sydney on 6th November. Uneventful and nothing unusual about the flight or boarding other than people on the plane wearing masks and that both airports were largely empty of people, shops are shut etc.

Sydney > Hobart as a connecting flight. Access to the gate to board the plane, that is to simply get to the seating area at Sydney airport, was via people wearing high vis vests with Tasmanian Government logo on the back. They basically asked that I had approval to travel to Tas and had completed the online paperwork but didn't ask to see proof ( though they did remind me that no paperwork = won't be getting out of Hobart airport).

Arrival at Hobart. Everyone lined up to be temperature checked then proceeded to second stage which requires proof of authorisation to enter the state. They asked an assortment of questions as to where I've been in the past two weeks and required a definite yes / no answer to each of them. They informed me of my obligation to call a provided number in the event of developing COVID symptoms. After that I was free to go. This was all being conducted by persons identified as from or representing the Tas Department of Health, there was a police presence but only a few.

A few days later I received a text message reminding me of the symptoms and number to call.

Hobart > Adelaide today 16th November. All pretty normal at the Hobart end apart from social distancing etc. Arrival at Adelaide though was much like arriving in a foreign country - everyone arriving was directed straight to a group of people who asked to see proof of authorisation to enter the state, proof of ID and asked me questions regarding exactly where I'd been in the past two weeks and to confirm that I had not been anywhere other than Tasmania and Sydney Airport. They also verified flight number and seat number. This operation looked to be run by SA Police - there's a very visible police presence at the airport, far more than normal, and some of those asking the questions were uniformed police, others looked to be civilians assisting.

Main notable difference is Tas was the only state of the three which temperature checked arrivals and that the operation in Tas seems to be being run by the Health Department with a limited police presence whereas in SA it looks to be a police operation as such. Paperwork for the two is in line with that - Police in SA, Health Department in Tas.

Just posted that for info really on the assumption that most won't have been on a plane recently.


----------



## bellenuit (16 November 2020)

Early Data Show Moderna’s Coronavirus Vaccine Is 94.5% Effective
					

Moderna is the second company to report preliminary results from a large trial testing a vaccine. But there are still months to go before it will be widely available to the public.




					nl.nytimes.com


----------



## wayneL (18 November 2020)

Interesting discussion here:


----------



## satanoperca (18 November 2020)

It was always and will always be a ploy from one country to wreak havoc on Western society and economies. Read back through the posts and you will see plenty of discussion on the specifics of this virus.

Brilliant plan, very well researched, deployed, and highly effective. Well done comrades, westerners are dumb and your plan has worked brilliantly, destabilize the west as we are all barbarians.

Beats traditional warfare of blowing things up, a manufactured virus is far more effective.


----------



## orr (19 November 2020)

Annika Linde  Swedens predecessor to Anders Tegnell makes the obsevation that Swedens approach was to run after the virus rather than to be proactive...
Others have been more assertive in it bringing little more than misery and death...
Though the view from the Dakota's  still looks good.

ve.
	

		
			
		

		
	









And for the '_Alternative Medicne_' scented candle sniffers? Do a quick check on the Vitamin D consumption across the above mentioned four countries...Or don't.

to read more: 



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/11/18/sweden-coronavirus-surge-policy/


----------



## sptrawler (19 November 2020)

Interesting news regarding the South Australian outbreak, sounds as though we are still learning things about this virus, hope the vaccine is as clever as the virus. It sounds as though people are getting really nervous, as they should IMO.








						Zero new cases in South Australia as hotel quarantine under scrutiny
					

Victoria has closed its border to South Australia after the state's Premier announced it would stop international flights and defended its quarantine hotel system.




					www.theage.com.au
				




From the article:

_Mr Marshall told ABC Radio Adelaide on Thursday morning the specific strain of coronavirus circulating in Adelaide's northern suburbs was "frightening".

"The elements of this are quite frightening in so much that the vast amount of people who are getting infected in this strain are showing no symptoms, so it's quite different than anything we've seen before," he said_.

_Mr Marshall said it was clear he needed to pull the trigger on a hard six-day lockdown after his public health team told him on Wednesday, "don't deliberate, we only have one chance"_.


----------



## macca (19 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting news regarding the South Australian outbreak, sounds as though we are still learning things about this virus, hope the vaccine is as clever as the virus. It sounds as though people are getting really nervous, as they should IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is kind of weird, the people who have it are showing no symptoms.................

so if no one is actually sick....why the lock down ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 November 2020)

macca said:


> That is kind of weird, the people who have it are showing no symptoms.................
> 
> so if no one is actually sick....why the lock down ?



Most I know seem to be thinking along very similar lines.

Government knows more about this virus than the public is being told.


----------



## cutz (19 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Most I know seem to be thinking along very similar lines.
> 
> Government knows more about this virus than the public is being told.




Apparently from what I've been reading is it's a highly contagious strain with a short incubation period... what makes it extremely scary is the victim is unaware they have it so risk of spread is extreme, BTW I take what I read in the media with a grain of salt...

I wish the chief would stop defending the rights of medi hotel workers to work multiple jobs whilst at the same time enforcing a lockdown that will sent many to the wall, I think the sense of irony is lost...


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 November 2020)

cutz said:


> I wish the chief would stop defending the rights of medi hotel workers to work multiple jobs whilst at the same time enforcing a lockdown that will sent many to the wall, I think the sense of irony is lost...



I'll pose a question:

Suppose that I get a job working in the Premier's Office. A job where I see the man daily and am aware of information not known to the general public.

Can I take a second job working for the ALP?

Can I take a second job working for a newspaper?

Or if I were to be in charge of licensing casinos can I have a second job working for a casino? I'll write their license, permit etc applications on the weekend then approve them the following week. All OK yes?

Etc.

There are lots of situations where working for x precludes other employment either at all or in specific industries etc. It's not even slightly uncommon - I was under that restriction in my actual first job as a teenager and have pretty much always worked under a requirement that precluded working for anyone else without approval.

Likewise plenty of businesses don't permit their employees to also work for competitors or to run their own business competing against their employer. That one's extremely common.

The argument that we can't stop someone who works in quarantine from also working in a pizza shop is an outright lie to be blunt. Numerous businesses and government agencies do comparable things routinely.


----------



## sptrawler (19 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Most I know seem to be thinking along very similar lines.
> 
> Government knows more about this virus than the public is being told.



Which is what we posed on ASF, in February, from memory. 
The time is over, that this is just an opportunity to deflate an over inflated economy IMO, I really think it is something we should try and avoid.
I think this may be bigger than Ben Hur. 
Sooner or later they will have to explain the over reaction, then maybe all hell will break lose, obviously they think it is best we don't know.
Which in reality may well be the case, sometimes things are best not said, until it is over.
As you know smurf, the public is only told when the power system is in a dire state, yet sometimes the knife edge is walked.
Just my opinion.


----------



## satanoperca (19 November 2020)

macca said:


> That is kind of weird, the people who have it are showing no symptoms.................
> 
> so if no one is actually sick....why the lock down ?



Macca you are widely read on this topic. Asymptomatic cases have always been the larger part of the infected populous.
That is why it is so hard to contain long term.
Short term, close everything down, will control it.
But once you open society up, bang goes the Wiesel and cases start to grow again.
So does the govnuts lock us down again and again?

To me this virus is nasty but not bad, the next one released is going to be x5 worse.

It is a game of chess played by countries. Nuclear weapons are so yesterday, biological weapons are the future, the achieve more and are more effective.. The current case proves this.


----------



## macca (19 November 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Macca you are widely read on this topic. Asymptomatic cases have always been the larger part of the infected populous.
> That is why it is so hard to contain long term.
> Short term, close everything down, will control it.
> But once you open society up, bang goes the Wiesel and cases start to grow again.
> ...




NSW Govt Data from normal medical blood tests done for other reasons (annual check ups etc) shows that the number of cases in NSW was/is 3 times the recorded figure.

Which obviously means that it is three times less deadly than previously thought

We still have no mention of the wonderful support that Vitamin D gives everyone


----------



## satanoperca (19 November 2020)

macca said:


> NSW Govt Data from normal medical blood tests done for other reasons (annual check ups etc) shows that the number of cases in NSW was/is 3 times the recorded figure.
> 
> Which obviously means that it is three times less deadly than previously thought
> 
> We still have no mention of the wonderful support that Vitamin D gives everyone



I agree.

But can you be a little more agressive with the Vitamin D - ie. for **** sack people, get outside and get some rays, your body, and immune system needs it.

As for Covid, I have made my case, it was a play, and it played 100% well by those that we're testing the waters on how to disrupt western society.

It was  a tester/trial, Covid will look like a fairy tale when the next release bio engineered virus arrives on our shores.


----------



## sptrawler (19 November 2020)

macca said:


> Yep, we now live in "interesting times" as per the grand plan





satanoperca said:


> I agree.
> 
> But can you be a little more agressive with the Vitamin D - ie. for **** sack people, get outside and get some rays, your body, and immune system needs it.
> 
> ...



The population can't just keep going up exponentially.


----------



## cutz (20 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Most I know seem to be thinking along very similar lines.
> 
> Government knows more about this virus than the public is being told.




Panic in SA has turned into relief, the super scary strain theory that was believed to have been spread via pizza boxes was actually spawned as a result of a lie made to tracers.

Although it has been ruled out it would be a great gesture of goodwill to compensate business owners.

On a side note, found an interesting article which discusses what has already been raised here.









						Could higher-paid hotel quarantine workers better protect Australia from COVID-19?
					

A leading epidemiologist argues we need to pay hotel quarantine workers more so they don't risk coronavirus infection by working other jobs, as SA enters its second day of lockdown.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2020)

What is happening in Bali, is a perfect example of what happens to the population, when most are employed in the tourism/service sector and gig economy.
It should be a wakeup call to our politicians IMO.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...leaves-hundreds-starving-20201117-p56fce.html


----------



## macca (25 November 2020)

This is starting to become a farce,

*<<Lack of Routine Medical  Care Is Causing Uptick in Deaths*

The slight uptick in deaths that are now being  reported simply aren't directly due to COVID-19, he insists. Data show these  deaths — primarily people aged 45 to 65, with equal distribution between the   sexes — are mainly from heart disease, stroke and cancer, which suggests they  are excess deaths caused by inaccessibility of routine medical care as people  are either afraid or discouraged from going to the hospital.
These deaths may be characterized as being COVID  related, but that's only because they have been falsely lumped into that  category due to false positives being recorded within 28 days of death.
Again, people are being tested very regularly,  and the rate of false positives is extremely high. All hospital patients are also  tested upon admission, so when they die — regardless of the cause — they're   likely to have a false positive on their record, which then lumps them into the  death tally for COVID-19. >>













						Former Pfizer Science Officer Reveals Great COVID-19 Scam
					

The same number of people have died in 2020 that, on average, have died in previous years. This simply wouldn’t be the case if we had a lethal pandemic.




					articles.mercola.com


----------



## Knobby22 (26 November 2020)

The above article is a deliberate lie to keep herd behaving. 

It is untrue in all aspects but should keep followers in line and doing and behaving in the preferred way.









						279,700 extra deaths in the US so far in this pandemic year
					

Health statisticians keep careful tabs on how many people die every week. Based on what's happened in past years, they know what to expect – but 2020 death counts are surging beyond predictions.




					theconversation.com


----------



## basilio (28 November 2020)

The Mercola website is an anti vaccine, COVID conspiracy centre.
It's content ranges from misleading to outright fabrication.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2020)

The Swedish approach to tackling COVID  (let it slowly rip and build up herd immunity) is dissected in a UK medical  Journal. 

Long story short.  It hasn't worked. It never was going to and  Sweden will somehow have to try and salvage something from situation as they now attempt to introduce controls on people congregating and spreading the disease.

Good detailed analysis on the ABC. Also provide a link to the original paper.









						'Caught up in their own bullshit': The cost of Sweden's controversial coronavirus strategy
					

Sweden's idea of not following conventional coronavirus measures led to a death rate triple that of its neighbours, and even though a vaccine could be close, the country may need the kind of measures it tried to avoid throughout the pandemic.




					www.abc.net.au
				







__





						SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
					

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.




					journals.sagepub.com


----------



## macca (28 November 2020)

basilio said:


> The Mercola website is an anti vaccine, COVID conspiracy centre.
> It's content ranges from misleading to outright fabrication.




I agree that one does have to apply some grey matter to the topics but there is a lot of thought provoking stuff on there as well.

In this case, they are really only saying what the Doctors throughout the world are saying, just because there is Covid does not mean you can bunk down and hide.

People still need to be seeing their Docs if they have other problems, eg: our local skin cancer Doc is reminding people to still get their annual skin checks done.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2020)

macca said:


> I agree that one does have to apply some grey matter to the topics but there is a lot of thought provoking stuff on there as well.
> 
> In this case, they are really only saying what the Doctors throughout the world are saying, just because there is Covid does not mean you can bunk down and hide.
> 
> People still need to be seeing their Docs if they have other problems, eg: our local skin cancer Doc is reminding people to still get their annual skin checks done.




Macca if the main point of the article was saying that people should still try to keep on top of their other medical issues as well as COVID risks  I would be in total agreement. 
*
Unfortunately that is not what is being said at all. *The story attempts to completely undermine the dangers of COVID with misinformation and outright fabrications.

IMV Mercola is a pernacious website run by a man whose  history should be examined more closely.

Check this out.

*Dr. Joseph Mercola Ordered to Stop Illegal Claims*

Stephen Barrett, M.D.
            July 27, 2020        
Joseph Mercola, D.O., who practiced for many years in Schaumburg, Illinois, now operates one of the Internet’s largest and most trafficked health information sites. Since 2012, Mercola has stated that his site has over 300,000 pages and is visited by “millions of people each day” and that his electronic newsletter has over one million subscribers [1]. The site vigorously promotes and sells dietary supplements, many of which bear his name. It also publishes a steady stream of propaganda intended to persuade its visitors not to trust mainstream healthcare viewpoints and consumer-protection agencies.









						Dr. Joseph Mercola Ordered to Stop Illegal Claims | Quackwatch
					

Joseph Mercola, D.O., who practiced for many years in Schaumburg, Illinois, now operates one of the Internet's largest and most trafficked health information sites. Since 2012, Mercola has stated that his site has over 300,000 pages and is visited by "millions of people each day" ...




					quackwatch.org


----------



## satanoperca (28 November 2020)

basilio said:


> Macca if the main point of the article was saying that people should still try to keep on top of their other medical issues as well as COVID risks  I would be in total agreement.
> 
> *Unfortunately that is not what is being said at all. *The story attempts to completely undermine the dangers of COVID with misinformation and outright fabrications.
> 
> ...




He is another b---t artist, millions of visitors a day, not even close to the truth, try maybe a 1000 vistors a day.







For those that don't know what the above is, it is a traffic report for websites and generally fairly accurate.

The truth never lies and data is data.

As for pages on his website, 300,000. Google only recognises :


----------



## macca (28 November 2020)

I realise all of that but I still find his site full of info that is thought provoking and acts as a great spot to find out what is happening in traditional medicine.

An example would be that his site was collecting links that showed that Vitamin D is a very successful defence against the flu and Covid, this has since been proven in quite a few countries.

Most overseas countries do a lot more research than here in OZ and his site is a good way to track them down, unfortunately here in OZ where we have heaps of sunshine, this is still not promoted by the "Health" professionals


----------



## basilio (28 November 2020)

Macca I have no problem with the research and promotion  of Vitamin D  as a way to  improve health and decrease the effects of some illnesses. 

Full stop..


----------



## noirua (3 December 2020)

Germany is now seeing MORE Covid-19 infections than Britain (msn.com)


----------



## basilio (5 December 2020)

Daily COVID deaths in the US now around 2900 mark and rising.
Death toll from 9/11 was 2996. The US is now seeing the equivalent of  a 9/11 disaster* every day *with the pandemic.


----------



## basilio (5 December 2020)

In all the discussions on mass testing for COVID the* easiest, cheapest and most effective  process was sniffer dogs.*

Yep.  Easily trained, exceptionally accurate, very cheap. *Well proven..*

So I wonder why we have not seen these process established for airports, mass transit systems, any place people congregate and one wants immediate results on potentially infected people?

*Dogs detect coronavirus fast and reliably — why not use them everywhere?*









						Dogs detect coronavirus fast and reliably — why not use them everywhere? | DW | 21.10.2020
					

Finnish researchers say their canine sniffer experts can detect COVID-19 quickly and cheaply but, so far, their skills are hardly used to control the pandemic. Teri Schultz wonders: Who isn't letting the dogs out?




					www.dw.com


----------



## grah33 (6 December 2020)

anyone noticing sirens (police or ambo) going off all the time since lockdown happened, in urban Victoria?
i'm hearing it all the time now


----------



## DB008 (6 December 2020)

Overall (and the main-stream media (MSN) attacking Sweden because they are going against the status quo), they seem to be right on track with their mortality rate in 2020 as the previous 10 years.

Hmm, who would have thought....









https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/



.​


----------



## Knobby22 (6 December 2020)

DB008 said:


> Overall (and the main-stream media (MSN) attacking Sweden because they are going against the status quo), they seem to be right on track with their mortality rate in 2020 as the previous 10 years.
> 
> Hmm, who would have thought....
> 
> ...




Assuming December and the remains of November are average for the other months I get 93053, But of course the virus is at its worst there right now so I would guess 93,700.
They had it fairly under control till recently and there is a 2 week lag for deaths.


----------



## qldfrog (6 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> Assuming December and the remains of November are average for the other months I get 93053, But of course the virus is at its worst there right now so I would guess 93,700.
> They had it fairly under control till recently.



Let's put a calendar reminder to see figures in 3 months then, at the worst case i think we can agree, and i can bet you now it will not be bad either ..
In france, figures show lockdowns are actually not really working and peaks started deflating BEFORE the lockdown..obviously srasonal increase in autumn etc


----------



## Knobby22 (6 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Let's put a calendar reminder to see figures in 3 months then, at the worst case i think we can agree, and i can bet you now it will not be bad either ..
> In france, figures show lockdowns are actually not really working and peaks started deflating BEFORE the lockdown..obviously srasonal increase in autumn etc



People will start social distancing as soon as they hear the virus is rampant again. Swedens will drop now as they hear the virus is loose without much government action.

USA is a special case as they have a lot of special people.


----------



## qldfrog (6 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> People will start social distancing as soon as they hear the virus is rampant again.



Sure and nothing wrong with that, common sense, but no need to sacrifice small business


----------



## basilio (7 December 2020)

*Rudy Giuliani Has Already Filed 37 Law Suits Against His COVID-19 Infection             *






Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani has wasted no time fighting his COVID-19 diagnosis, immediately filing thirty-seven lawsuits in eight different states.

The New-York-mayor-turned-totally-xucking-insane-Trump-lawyer said it was clear that his COVID diagnosis was rigged and demanded that the result be overturned.

“If you only count the legal test results, and you discard the illegal test results, then I don’t have COVID,” he said.

“Don’t you think it is strange that yesterday I didn’t have the coronavirus, and then today, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, I do?”

Presenting to a judge in New York, Giuliani’s legal team said they had evidence that their client did not have COVID. When asked to provide that evidence, they conceded that the number of positive tests received by Mr Giuliani was a non-zero number.

In Georgia, a judge allowed for the positive test to be recounted. It remained at one.








						Rudy Giuliani Has Already Filed 37 Law Suits Against His COVID-19 Infection
					

He has lost every single one.




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## noirua (10 December 2020)

Merkel makes emotional plea for tougher curbs as Covid-19 deaths in Germany break record
Https://www.thelocal.de/20201209/merkel-demands-tougher-curbs-as-covid-19-deaths-in-germany-break-record

Three quarters of Brazilian Amazon have been infected with COVID-19 since March
Https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/210273/three-quarters-brazilian-amazon-have-been/


----------



## noirua (10 December 2020)




----------



## Knobby22 (10 December 2020)

Thought I would do an update.

The USA is getting close to 0.1% of the population dying from covid. 1 in a thousand.  They are presently officially 0.0894%. 

Percentage of population who has caught covid is officially 5% of the population, 1 in 20. Both figures, as is well known, are below the reality.

Only 4.5% of the total  deaths occurred to people under 65 without a medical condition.

Source-worldometer. Yesterday's figures.


----------



## noirua (12 December 2020)

The coronavirus does it seem cause some lingering deaths:  Tommy ‘Tiny’ Lister death: The Dark Knight and Friday actor dies, aged 62 (msn.com)
Lister, who was pronounced dead at the scene, had been diagnosed with Covid-19 earlier this year. 
He recovered from the illness, but Cowan said the actor had trouble breathing after becoming sick a week ago.


----------



## noirua (12 December 2020)

South Korean filmmaker Kim Ki-duk dies from COVID-19 complications (msn.com)

VILNIUS/SEOUL (Reuters) - South Korean filmmaker Kim Ki-duk, a controversial figure both for his work and in his personal life, died in Latvia from coronavirus complications on Friday, a Latvian film official said. 
Kim, 59, died at a hospital in Riga, Rietuma told Reuters, citing the director's private secretary.

Kim, who had won awards at the Venice, Cannes and Berlin film festivals, had been staying in the Latvian capital Riga, in a private capacity after travelling to neighbouring Estonia for work, according to Dita Rietuma, director of Latvia's state National Film Centre.


----------



## dutchie (12 December 2020)

Dutchies' Persons of The Year 2020

All the care workers - some of whom lost their lives.


----------



## noirua (14 December 2020)

__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				



“The coronavirus is out of control, so we don’t want to do things piecemeal but act decisively,” Bavaria Premier Markus Soeder said alongside Merkel, describing the pandemic as a “catastrophe” and calling for a national effort to tackle it. “If we’re not careful, Germany will quickly become the problem child of Europe,” he warned.


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2020)

Whoda thunk it?


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2020)

Ivermectin again, too.

This sounds like the bomb.


----------



## satanoperca (17 December 2020)

Still need a leader that takes charge instead of "It will just disappear" which is correct in statement, when everyone is dead.


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Still need a leader that takes charge instead of "It will just disappear" which is correct in statement, when everyone is dead.



What would be your vision of "taking charge"?


----------



## satanoperca (17 December 2020)

Maybe listened to the experts instead of think I was one.
Maybe shown leadership instead of politicising the situation
Maybe treated the problem as a health issue instead of a business decision
Maybe work with a team instead of against it.
Maybe not told lies that it was just going to away
Maybe just put on a mask even if they are not 100% effective


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Maybe listened to the experts instead of think I was one.
> Maybe shown leadership instead of politicising the situation
> Maybe treated the problem as a health issue instead of a business decision
> Maybe work with a team instead of against it.
> ...



Lot's of weasel words in there bruh.

Maybe? Maybe? Maybe?

Define expert.

Which experts?

Leadership? we circle back to my question to you what do you define as leadership in this case?

health versus business decisions, or rabbits you should have framed it as health v economics. Economics affects health so therefore the two are entertained. Would be interested in your view of this juxtaposition based on the limited information that anybody had back in the beginning of this.

Which team? Come on man, you know that they're our tribe lessons which will always work against each other no matter what is going on surely you can see that. Even you.

In all likelihood this will go away eventually, like all coronaviruses. So was that a lie or based on expert information.... It's easy to be a smart-ass after the fact.

Masks don't work, full stop.


----------



## satanoperca (17 December 2020)

3000 people dying a day.

What can I say, keep believing, hope is wonderful, but figures do not lie.


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Maybe listened to the experts instead of think I was one.
> Maybe shown leadership instead of politicising the situation
> Maybe treated the problem as a health issue instead of a business decision
> Maybe work with a team instead of against it.
> ...



Lot's of weasel words in there bruh.

Maybe? Maybe? Maybe?

Define expert.

Which experts?

Leadership? we circle back to my question to you what do you define as leadership in this case?

health versus business decisions, or rabbits you should have framed it as health v economics. Economics affects health so therefore the two are entertained. Would be interested in your view of this juxtaposition based on the limited information that anybody had back in the beginning of this.

Which team? Come on man, you know that they're our tribe lessons which will always work against each other no matter what is going on surely you can see that. Even you.

In all likelihood this will go away eventually, like all coronaviruses. So was that a lie or based on expert information.... It's easy to be a smart-ass after the fact.

Masks don't work, full stop.


satanoperca said:


> 3000 people dying a day.
> 
> What can I say, keep believing, hope is wonderful, but figures do not lie.



We've been over that 


satanoperca said:


> 3000 people dying a day.
> 
> What can I say, keep believing, hope is wonderful, but figures do not lie.



We've being over that already ferchrissake.

Do I really have to debunk this 850 times?


----------



## satanoperca (17 December 2020)

When will you accept that Chump was over his head in his ability to manage a crisis?

As for the Experts, he statement many times, USA had the best experts in the world and then ignored them.

Rose-coloured glasses.

My brick wall has a dent in it.


----------



## Ferret (17 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Masks don't work, full stop.




Some education from NSW Health:








						Wearing face masks during COVID-19
					

Wear a face mask if it is hard to maintain 1.5 metres of physical distance from others or if you have COVID-19 symptoms.




					www.nsw.gov.au


----------



## Knobby22 (18 December 2020)

News cycle continues.

Macron has caught it and was with other world leaders. 

Swedish King slams his country's virus response. Seems a bit angry.

At least Boris injects a bit of humour with the UK citizens as he announces restrictions:
"Wishing everyone  a merry little Christmas and I do mean little".
 I do like the guy.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2020)

New cases in Sydney northern beaches.

I can feel border closures coming on.


----------



## basilio (18 December 2020)

*The US has now confirmed more than 17 million cases of coronavirus. *The virus continues to spread at an alarming rate, as the country sets new records for coronavirus cases and deaths. According to Johns Hopkins University,* the US confirmed 247,403 cases of coronavirus yesterday, and another 3,656 Americans died of the virus yesterday as well. *


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> New cases in Sydney northern beaches.
> 
> I can feel border closures coming on.



Western Australistan has already done so.... Well, nearly, give it a day or two.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2020)

For those who have relentlessly trumpeted the "Swedish solution" to covid, the Swedish King disagrees, saying that the approach has failed.









						Swedish king says country's controversial coronavirus approach 'has failed'
					

Sweden's king criticises the Government's handling of the pandemic as an independent commission finds the country's aged care sector has major shortcomings.




					www.abc.net.au
				




It will be interesting to hear the views of those on this site who promoted that approach.


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> For those who have relentlessly trumpeted the "Swedish solution" to covid, the Swedish King disagrees, saying that the approach has failed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Narrative Vs data

Increase is fully expected in the winter months, but we can see the second wave in Sweden is lower than the first wave and already starting to resolve itself.

On must be care for not to indulge in confirmation bias, the Swedish king is a coddled and protected royal away from the real world, whose opinion is about as valuable as Joe Schmuck.

MSM has an agenda, Horace.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2020)

The problem is, everyone is an expert with hindsight.
What I would like to know is, why has this reaction happened? The mortality rate isn't overly high, so why the world wide mass lockdown reaction? No one has actually said what the real issue is IMO.
Has any one heard, well if you get the virus, this will happen, all I have heard is if you are old or have an underlying condition you may die from it. 
Most don't, so why all the panic around the world, is there something that hasn't been said about the virus?
Just wondering.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Has any one heard, well if you get the virus, this will happen, all I have heard is if you are old or have an underlying condition you may die from it.
> Most don't, so why all the panic around the world, is there something that hasn't been said about the virus?




200k + in the US and rising.

Are you saying that all those deaths are of sick people and their passing will be a relief to the health system because they won't need treatment any more ?

We could say that for cancer patients surely ? Let 'em die so we don't have to spend money on them.

I don't see the point you are making. A large number of those deaths in the US would have been preventable if proper precautions were taken.


----------



## basilio (18 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The problem is, everyone is an expert with hindsight.
> What I would like to know is, why has this reaction happened? The mortality rate isn't overly high, so why the world wide mass lockdown reaction? No one has actually said what the real issue is IMO.
> Has any one heard, well if you get the virus, this will happen, all I have heard is if you are old or have an underlying condition you may die from it.
> Most don't, so why all the panic around the world, is there something that hasn't been said about the virus?
> Just wondering.




Well that surprises me.. After 12 months of COVID spreading and the  widespread discussions on this forum.

The nuts of this disease have been established. Pretty infectious.  Certainly with any decent contact between infected people and others. 
Consequences can be mild/non existent  in many cases (say 45%)  and  a severe illness akin to a bad flu in the next tranche (say  45%). 

The last 10% of people  can end up seriously ill and  hospitalized with the death rate around 1-2% overall.  That depends very much on effective treatment of very sick people which in the event of  hundreds of thousands  of people falling ill puts intolerable pressure on hospitals and staff which would result in a  sharply  increased death rate.

Apart from the direct deaths long term effects of COVID on a significant number of suffers is now established.

In an Australian population of 25 million a 1.5% death rate would result in 370,000 deaths  and probably 600k -1 million people with long term heath consequences.  That was the scenario facing the  Australian governments in March.



			https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/risk-comms-updates/update-36-long-term-symptoms.pdf?sfvrsn=5d3789a6_2


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> 200k + in the US and rising.
> 
> Are you saying that all those deaths are of sick people and their passing will be a relief to the health system because they won't need treatment any more ?
> 
> ...



"A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000."

Lock.
It.
All. 
Down!


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> "A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000."
> 
> Lock.
> It.
> ...




Well, investigate medical errors and reduce them. That's normal medical practice (or should be).

Another normal medical practice should be disease prevention.

Or don't you agree ?


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, investigate medical errors and reduce them. That's normal medical practice (or should be).
> 
> Another normal medical practice should be disease prevention.
> 
> Or don't you agree ?



How many times do I have to put the phrase "risk vs reward" in my posts?

a common cold is a disease but nobody really gives a crap about preventing colds.

Obesity and cardiovascular disease is in epidemic proportions, yet we allow the proliferation of fast food outlets and junk food in general.

Cancer effects one out of every 3 people in yet or society allows a myriad of factors that are proving to be carcinogenic.

You're here we have a disease that is somewhere between 99 and 99.9% survivable and we destroy economies.

Additionally lockdowns have proven to be deadly on a number of France, far more deadly than covid. Yet our governments enthusiastically lockdown are economies there by increasing the multifaceted causation of these deaths.

I can't believe that after nearly a year people don't understand they're being played.

Only when the boot is on all our necks will you understand.


----------



## satanoperca (18 December 2020)

basilio said:


> In an Australian population of 25 million a 1.5% death rate would result in 370,000 deaths  and probably 600k -1 million people with long term heath consequences.  That was the scenario facing the  Australian governments in March.




Bas I don't think your figures are correct.
Worst Country effected Belgium 1600 dead per Million of Population = 0.16% of the population if everyone is infected
US and United Kingdom, it is roughly 0.1%

So how did you come about 1.5%. While as a percentage it might seem small, it is still a huge relative number.

While Sweden's is 0.075%. Sweden is looking as bad as the media presents

So worst-case scenario for Australia would be 250,000 deaths +/- 25%

Thought I might look at the USA, to get an understanding of what is happening.






There is some really telling figures in the above, 92% of deaths from Covid are from people older than 55. 

That age group 55-100 is approx 31% of the USA population and if you are in it, you have a 0.264% chance of dying if you contract it.

Then I would compare the figures above to Australia based on age demographics





Interesting we find the at current count, if we where the same as the USA, 24K death, 95% of those in the age bracket 55+


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> I can't believe that after nearly a year people don't understand they're being played.




Being played for what ?

A Conservative government in Australia has shelled out billions and got us into debt for decades to stop this thing.

The government is controlled by business who definitely don't want their businesses destroyed.

Why the effing hell would a fiscally conservative government do this unless it was necessary ?


----------



## satanoperca (18 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Why the effing hell would a fiscally conservative government do this unless it was necessary ?




Because they are not fiscally conservative, they are arse covering, like the rest of them. Easy to spend other people's money.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Because they are not fiscally conservative, they are arse covering, like the rest of them. Easy to spend other people's money.




Really ? They just spent the last 9 years trying to balance the budget and almost achieved it.


----------



## satanoperca (18 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Really ? They just spent the last 9 years trying to balance the budget and almost achieved it.



They failed, they used Covid as an excuse, the never would have balanced the budget.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> 200k + in the US and rising.
> 
> Are you saying that all those deaths are of sick people and their passing will be a relief to the health system because they won't need treatment any more ?
> 
> ...



You miss understood my post, I was posing questions, I have said since the beginning I think it is something best avoided.
What I am questioning is the response and the reasoning behind it.
We have never seen a response like this to anything.
Also it isn't a one of response, it looks as though a lockdown could be enacted at any time, there has to be a reason.


----------



## satanoperca (18 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> a lockdown could be enacted at any time, there has to be a reason.



FEAR


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Being played for what ?
> 
> A Conservative government in Australia has shelled out billions and got us into debt for decades to stop this thing.
> 
> ...



Exactly what I was wondering.
I personally don't think we know yet.
Just my opinion.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2020)

Good Article here from Joe Hildebrand:



SNIP:

Why it’s about time we all started acting like a smart country
DECEMBER 19, 2020 6:22AM
Joe Hildebrandnews.com.au
There are essentially two types of governments in the world – those that trust their citizens and those that do not.
Either you believe that the people you govern are responsible adults who will act in a reasonable way, follow reasonable rules and make reasonable decisions or you believe that they are somehow infantile or incapable of rational thought.

At the extreme ends of politics this is the difference between democracy and dictatorship, the difference between following the will of the people or suppressing it.......


----------



## SirRumpole (19 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> There are essentially two types of governments in the world – those that trust their citizens and those that do not.
> Either you believe that the people you govern are responsible adults who will act in a reasonable way, follow reasonable rules and make reasonable decisions or you believe that they are somehow infantile or incapable of rational thought.




There are two types of people in society.

One are responsible adults who act in a reasonable way.

The other are infantile and incapable of rational thought.

The former has to be protected from the latter.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> There are two types of people in society.
> 
> One are responsible adults who act in a reasonable way.
> 
> ...



Which is which, Horace?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 December 2020)

While respecting posters attachment to democracy and a free press it is my belief that during a pandemic such as Covid-19 these are ineffectual instruments to deal with the situation in which we find ourselves today. 

A good outcome would be for a minimal decrease in quality of life years and an economy capable of a rapid recovery. 

Posters attachment to the common sense ( if one can measure this ) of the Australian people ( if such an identifiable entity exists in 2020 ) is admirable. 

It is widely misplaced however and in fact dangerous. 

The press are controlled on the one hand on the right by an ageing American/Australian of Scottish heritage with no loyalty to anyone but himself and on the other on the left by a mob of peahens of disputable gender and intelligence with no sense of the real world as it affects workers.

In the political realm Australia is a barnacled boat drifting without a captain or crew after a cyclone. 

A firm hand, decisions decided and enacted, changing course rapidly if found to be the wrong decisions, is needed. 

Bugger Democracy.

Bugger a Free Press. 

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (19 December 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> While respecting posters attachment to democracy and a free press it is my belief that during a pandemic such as Covid-19 these are ineffectual instruments to deal with the situation in which we find ourselves today.
> 
> A good outcome would be for a minimal decrease in quality of life years and an economy capable of a rapid recovery.
> 
> ...




Daniel Andrews ?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Which is which, Horace?




Those who listen to the advice of medical experts and follow reasonable precautions are the former wayne.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> While respecting posters attachment to democracy and a free press it is my belief that during a pandemic such as Covid-19 these are ineffectual instruments to deal with the situation in which we find ourselves today.
> 
> A good outcome would be for a minimal decrease in quality of life years and an economy capable of a rapid recovery.
> 
> ...



Bugger Democracy makes several assumptions which you may not have accounted for GG.

Firstly, even if common sense could be objectively quantified it makes the exception that the ruler(s) possessed said quality.

Secondly assumes that be dictatorship is benevolent, vis-a-vis operating under the principle of _bonum commune communitatis_. This is a seriously risky proposition as most totalitarian dictatorship operate under no such principal in practice.

Therefore your argument falls over at the first hurdle in that if the proletariat is devoid of common sense than it is seriously an extremely high probability that the Dear Leader/politburo is also devoid of the same. 

Also as we have seen with all kinds of governments but especially totalitarian ones, that the ruling class enrich themselves at the expense of the plebeians.

This is all very fine and dandy if you are part of the ruling class, but obviously not if you are a people.

with regards to free press, the problem with our free press is not so much that it is free but that the ownerships are concentrated in a very few companies. Although I am a free enterpriser this is where I am in favour of regulation to ensure that the press is actually free and not basically corporatist propagandists.

My final thought here is that if you have a totalitarian rule in class than that requires the violent put down of all dissent, whether that descent is justified or not.

Democracy certainly has its faults and rather than dirwct democracy we probably should be or focusing on the principle of representative democracy.

You can keep your brownshirts I'll take my risks with the plebeians.


----------



## wayneL (19 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Those who listen to the advice of medical experts and follow reasonable precautions are the former wayne.



On the face of it I agree but what's reasonable? 

We live in a highly integrated system whereas medical experts focus solely on particular medical outcomes. SBS seen in some places where this has been a singular focus there have been overall negative health outcomes.

Up here in Queensland I think that we have a reasonable balance at the moment.... But who knows, that could change at any point.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Democracy certainly has its faults and rather than dirwct democracy we probably should be or focusing on the principle of representative democracy.




You only have to look at the opposition from political parties to "citizen initiated referendums" to know that representative democracy will never happen.


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2020)

Looks like things just got a whole lot worse in the U.K.








						'Worst moment of whole epidemic': Britain says new virus strain up to 70 per cent more transmissible
					

A mutated coronavirus strain up to 70 per cent more transmissible than earlier versions is spreading rapidly across Britain.




					www.smh.com.au
				




*London: *A mutated coronavirus strain up to 70 per cent more transmissible than earlier versions is spreading rapidly across Britain, shattering the Christmas plans of tens of millions and stoking fears of a major third wave in Europe.

Epidemiologist John Edmunds, a key member of the government's scientific advisory group for emergencies, described the Sunday morning Australian-time announcement as "the worst moment of the whole epidemic".


The discovery of the mutated strain was announced on Monday but scientific analysis of its impacts were not concluded until Friday night UK-time.
Studies suggest the variant formed in September and accounted for 28 per cent of new infections in London by mid-November. That figure ballooned to 62 per cent by December 9.

"So what this tells us is that this new variant not only moves fast but it is becoming the dominant variant," said chief medical officer Chris Whitty. "It is beating all the others in terms of transmission."

He said there was no evidence the strain makes people sicker but was less certain on the question of whether the new strain may be more resistant to vaccines.

"There are theoretical reasons to suspect some of the changes might alter some of the immune response but there's nothing that's been seen to suggest that's the case," he said.


----------



## wayneL (20 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> You only have to look at the opposition from political parties to "citizen initiated referendums" to know that representative democracy will never happen.



Yep, so long as we plebeians remain resolutely and ignorantly tribal, I agree.

We do have, via preferential voting, ample opportunity to institute representative democracy; yet we all still vote as if we have a first past the post system.

I mean how freaking stupid are we?

We have two major parties that are no longer interested in representing their core base, forsaking them for globalist corporatist interests against our own interests.

Yet only a few have woken the f*** up.


----------



## dutchie (20 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Yep, so long as we plebeians remain resolutely and ignorantly tribal, I agree.
> 
> We do have, via preferential voting, ample opportunity to institute representative democracy; yet we all still vote as if we have a first past the post system.
> 
> ...



The globalists know that they never will wake up. Lemmings all of us.


----------



## DB008 (20 December 2020)

*New coronavirus strain up to 70% more transmissible, UK government says*


*New strain does not cause a more serious disease and is unlikely to affect rollout of vaccines *​
The new strain of coronavirus identified in England is up to 70 per cent more transmissible, prime minister Boris Johnson has said, as the government announced further restrictions to curb the rapid spread of the mutated virus.​​Scientists have confirmed that the variant is passed more easily between people than the previously dominant strain, raising concerns that NHS services could be overwhelmed over the Christmas period if the spread of the virus is not slowed.​​According to government analysis, more than 60 per cent of new cases in London are currently linked to the new strain. It accounts for 59 per cent of cases in the east and 48 per cent in the southeast.​​This has led to a recent jump in hospitalisations across all three regions, professor Chris Whitty, the government’s chief medical officer, said during a Downing Street briefing on Saturday.​​If allowed to go unchecked, the new variant of the virus could increase the country’s R rate, which is estimated to be between 1.1 and 1.2, by 0.4 per cent.​​Sir Patrick Vallance, the government's chief scientific adviser, said: “It’s taken off, it’s moving fast and it’s leading inevitably to a sharp increase in hospitalisations."​​The government has insisted the variant does not cause a more serious disease and is unlikely to affect the nationwide rollout of Covid-19 vaccines.​​


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-strain-covid-transmission-b1776581.html



.​


----------



## noirua (20 December 2020)

DB008 said:


> *New coronavirus strain up to 70% more transmissible, UK government says*
> 
> 
> *New strain does not cause a more serious disease and is unlikely to affect rollout of vaccines *​
> ...



UK - Foreign travel advice
Coronavirus - India travel advice - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
Coronavirus - Australia travel advice - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

UK Health Secretary: 'This is deadly serious': New COVID variant 'out of control', health sec says (msn.com)

Netherlands bans flights from UK due to fast-spreading new COVID-19 strain (msn.com)


----------



## noirua (20 December 2020)

Western Australia BANS anyone from New South Wales entering amid coronavirus outbreak worsens  | Daily Mail Online
Sydney isolated from rest of Australia as COVID outbreak grows | Reuters
Europe bans flights from Britain, as country warns new coronavirus strain 'out of control' - The Economic Times (indiatimes.com)


----------



## Knobby22 (21 December 2020)

noirua said:


> Western Australia BANS anyone from New South Wales entering amid coronavirus outbreak worsens  | Daily Mail Online
> Sydney isolated from rest of Australia as COVID outbreak grows | Reuters
> Europe bans flights from Britain, as country warns new coronavirus strain 'out of control' - The Economic Times (indiatimes.com)



I heard some pretty bad news this morning regarding the outbreak.
Seems they traced it to someone who came back from the USA 3 weeks ago.
Looks like it has spread pretty hard, cases in Double Bay for instance. With the 5 day incubation and a super spreader event being Christmas (not to mention the pre-Christmas parties). I think Sydney is probably stuffed and by implication QLD and VIC are in trouble.


----------



## sptrawler (21 December 2020)

Knobby22 said:


> I heard some pretty bad news this morning regarding the outbreak.
> Seems they traced it to someone who came back from the USA 3 weeks ago.
> Looks like it has spread pretty hard, cases in Double Bay for instance. With the 5 day incubation and a super spreader event being Christmas (not to mention the pre-Christmas parties). I think Sydney is probably stuffed and by implication QLD and VIC are in trouble.



I thought I just heard on the ABC radio news, that the outbreak could be linked to the new U.K strain, I may have heard it wrong.


----------



## DB008 (21 December 2020)

Where do you draw the line? How much do you want to stuff the economy?

The mortality rate for people under 65-70 is not significant.

Until we get a vaccine (that is 100% proven), it will be a endless cycle of lockdowns. Not to mention that a large percentage of the population (worldwide), won't to take a vaccine.

Case of Covid-19
Contact tracing
Lockdown
Manage situation
New case of Covid-19
Contact tracing
Lockdown
Manage situation

Rinse and Repeat forever....???

Should we have just let Covid-19 go back in March, people above 70 in isolation for a month? Where would we be now?


----------



## DB008 (21 December 2020)

What about this take?


*Anti-vaxxers should forgo ventilators, German doctor says*​​A German geneticist has said those who turn down the new COVID-19 vaccine should carry a note also refusing intensive care treatment. He also said medical decisions should not be left to conspiracy theorists.​​People who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine should not be able to access ventilators and other emergency measures if they become ill, a member of Germany's Ethics Council told the mass circulation _Bild_ newspaper.​
"Whoever wants to refuse the vaccination outright, he should, please also always carry a document with the inscription: 'I don't want to be vaccinated!'" Wolfram Henn, a human geneticist, told Bild on Saturday.​​"I want to leave the protection against the disease to others! I want, if I get sick, to leave my intensive care bed and ventilator to others."​​Henn also slammed conspiracy theorists and coronavirus deniers, saying decisions should not be left to "Lateral thinkers and vaccination opponents," referring to the Querdenker movement, the umbrella group for most of Germany's sometimes violent anti-shutdown demonstrations.​


https://www.dw.com/en/anti-vaxxers-should-forgo-ventilators-german-doctor-says/a-55996805




.​


----------



## SirRumpole (21 December 2020)

DB008 said:


> Where do you draw the line? How much do you want to stuff the economy?
> 
> The mortality rate for people under 65-70 is not significant.
> 
> ...




Some people said a vaccine for this virus could never be made, yet it's been done in about 6 months.

How effective it is remains to be seen, but we should take the time to see and not risk any more lives unduly when there is light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 December 2020)

Amazing. A 3 month inquiry could not determine who was responsible for the Victorian hotel quarantine system.

Nice one Victorian politicians, you have successfully avoided responsibility for a monumental stuff up.

Sir Humphrey would be proud.









						Victorian quarantine inquiry finds hotel security was an 'orphan' with nobody taking responsibility
					

The final report from the inquiry into Victoria's botched hotel quarantine program is unable to determine who commissioned the use of private security and slams the Andrews Government for failing to do "proper analysis" of the plan.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (21 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Amazing. A 3 month inquiry could not determine who was responsible for the Victorian hotel quarantine system.
> 
> Nice one Victorian politicians, you have successfully avoided responsibility for a monumental stuff up.
> 
> ...




_Success has many fathers
Failure is an orphan.._


----------



## bellenuit (21 December 2020)

DB008 said:


> Where do you draw the line? How much do you want to stuff the economy?




There assumption being that if you do not take action the economy will be OK?

One doesn't know how this virus might evolve and until they have a vaccine that is capable of getting things under control, erring on the side of caution is the best option.


----------



## wayneL (21 December 2020)

bellenuit said:


> There assumption being that if you do not take action the economy will be OK?
> 
> One doesn't know how this virus might evolve and until they have a vaccine that is capable of getting things under control, erring on the side of caution is the best option.



Yeah! Totalitarianism is the best form of caution!

Here, take all my liberties and protect me from a virus that has a greater than 99.5% survival rate


----------



## sptrawler (21 December 2020)

Wow a lot of stuff is starting to come out now, lucky Trumps gone, he would have had a field day. 
I personally wonder if China is any worse than our media, for suppressing information they don't want out and manipulating content, I don't see a lot of difference. 😂 The end result is the same IMO, muppet control.  









						Be 'sleek and silent': how China censored coronavirus news at home
					

Warning of the "unprecedented challenge" Dr Li Wenliang's passing had posed, officials suppressed the inconvenient news and reclaimed the narrative.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
_The news was spreading quickly that Li Wenliang, a doctor who had warned about a strange new viral outbreak only to be threatened by the police and accused of peddling rumours, had died of COVID-19. Grief and fury coursed through social media. To people at home and abroad, Li's death showed the terrible cost of the Chinese government's instinct to suppress inconvenient information.

Yet China's censors decided to double down. Warning of the "unprecedented challenge" Li's passing had posed and the "butterfly effect" it may have set off, officials got to work suppressing the inconvenient news and reclaiming the narrative, according to confidential directives sent to local propaganda workers and news outlets.

They ordered news websites not to issue push notifications alerting readers to his death. They told social platforms to gradually remove his name from trending topics pages. And they activated legions of fake online commenters to flood social sites with distracting chatter, stressing the need for discretion: "As commenters fight to guide public opinion, they must conceal their identity, avoid crude patriotism and sarcastic praise, and be sleek and silent in achieving results."

The orders were among thousands of secret government directives and other documents that were reviewed by The New York Times and ProPublica. They lay bare in extraordinary detail the systems that helped the Chinese authorities shape online opinion during the pandemic.

At a time when digital media is deepening social divides in Western democracies, China is manipulating online discourse to enforce the Communist Party's consensus_.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Wow a lot of stuff is starting to come out now, lucky Trumps gone, he would have had a field day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Be careful, you might get in their bad books and be first on the list when the revolution comes.


----------



## sptrawler (21 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like things just got a whole lot worse in the U.K.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just correcting a post I made earlier this morning.









						Cases of UK's highly contagious mutant COVID strain detected in returned travellers in Australia
					

New South Wales authorities say a mutated form of the COVID-19 virus has been detected in returned travellers, however the new strain has not featured in the northern beaches outbreak.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:

Asked about the new strain today at a press conference, NSW Chief Health Officer Kerry Chant said two returned travellers from the UK who tested positive to COVID-19 were found to be carrying the mutated variant of the virus.

"We've had a couple of UK returned travellers with the particular mutations you're referring to," Dr Chant said.



> "Can I be very clear that the Avalon cluster strain does not have those mutations."



NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian said the strain detected in the Northern Beaches was "similar" to that found in a returned traveller who had arrived from the United States.


----------



## macca (21 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Just correcting a post I made earlier this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I read a statement by a pollie saying that " there is no reason to think that the vaccine will not work on the new strain"

I would suggest that the statement is a huge load of BS, if we look at normal testing requirements for medicines someone like the FDA would say the Exact opposite. 

The statement would be "this is a different strain and you cannot claim that your vaccine works until you prove it"

As we know, the annual flu shot is really just a lottery, they guess which 3 or 4 strains might come to Oz from the EU/UK and create a vaccine for them.

If we then get a different strain of flu then the vaccine Will Not work, why would Covid be any different?

It is called wishful thinking, rose coloured glass or Bull ****, take your pick !

I will just keeping taking my Vitamin D and and Astaxanthin,  if I get Covid I will get Professor Borody's meds.


----------



## macca (21 December 2020)

DB008 said:


> What about this take?
> 
> 
> *Anti-vaxxers should forgo ventilators, German doctor says*​​A German geneticist has said those who turn down the new COVID-19 vaccine should carry a note also refusing intensive care treatment. He also said medical decisions should not be left to conspiracy theorists.​​People who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine should not be able to access ventilators and other emergency measures if they become ill, a member of Germany's Ethics Council told the mass circulation _Bild_ newspaper.​
> ...




It has been proven in the USA that ventilators are just about a death warrant if you have Covid so that attitude will suit me just fine.

If I get really sick I want to be on my stomach in an oxygen enriched atmosphere like most of the survivors have been.

If he is really fair dinkum he should also be barring all the smokers and obese people for taking up ICU beds with self inflicted conditions


----------



## sptrawler (21 December 2020)

What I hoot, "I don't recall", good to see pollies taking responsibility.









						'No one' owns decision to use security guards for hotel quarantine, inquiry finds
					

The decision to use private security guards, without adequate training in infection control, was an "orphan" that neither Premier Daniel Andrews nor any of his ministers took any responsibility for, the Coate inquiry has found.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## moXJO (22 December 2020)

Toilet paper has disappeared from the shops in nsw again. I'm guessing that means we will see another lockdown.


----------



## moXJO (22 December 2020)

At this stage I'm not to worried. Northern beaches is known not to associate with the rest of Sydney. 

People have been taking precautions as well.
Govt would be best to set strict rules in places of gathering. Especially lead up to Christmas. 
NSW has done a stellar job so far in balancing freedom with precaution. Hopefully we can get through this.


----------



## basilio (22 December 2020)

Australia is fortunate in having largely halted COVID through our rigorous isolation policy.
The pressure on US  medical facilities  battling overwhelming illnesses is not going away.
Very sobering story from Nevada.









						This doctor spent his year fighting coronavirus. His worst moment came when Trump tweeted about him
					

US hospitals treating COVID-19 patients rarely allow healthy people on their wards. But the health workers at this Reno hospital are so sick of hoax claims and scepticism about coronavirus, they invited the ABC to spend the day with them.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (22 December 2020)

UK has knocked US back to 12th place for deaths per 1 million.
So either 11 other places are getting worse or US numbers have remained consistent. They hadn't budged from 11th place for months. 
Sweden went from about 10th place to 25th.


----------



## basilio (22 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> UK has knocked US back to 12th place for deaths per 1 million.
> So either 11 other places are getting worse or US numbers have remained consistent. They hadn't budged from 11th place for months.
> Sweden went from about 10th place to 25th.




Reconsider your maths Mokjo and look at the whole picture.

The US has lost control of of COVID in the past 4 months deaths now sitting at 3000 plus per day vs 5-600 a few months ago. Infection 230k plus a day .
At the same time UK and many other European countries , including Sweden, have also lost control of COVID . Because they were coming off a smaller base the percentage increase has been higher than the US. Hence the jump in proportional deaths.


----------



## basilio (22 December 2020)




----------



## moXJO (22 December 2020)

None of that changes much.  Its proportional to population size that matches whats happening. You are misdirecting by using deaths while ignoring population size differences. Its a bit weird except for propaganda purposes.

Lower populations should be able to deal with emergencies a lot faster then oversized ones.


----------



## bellenuit (22 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> UK has knocked US back to 12th place for deaths per 1 million.
> So either 11 other places are getting worse or US numbers have remained consistent. They hadn't budged from 11th place for months.
> Sweden went from about 10th place to 25th.




I've been watching it daily. The main reason the US has gone from 10th to 12th over the last few months seems to be related to a surge in countries in the old Yugoslavia and neighbouring region. Slovenia, Bosnia, North Macedonia and Montenegro. If these were still united, the US would be about 10th again.


----------



## wayneL (22 December 2020)

bellenuit said:


> I've been watching it daily. The main reason the US has gone from 10th to 12th over the last few months seems to be related to a surge in countries in the old Yugoslavia and neighbouring region. Slovenia, Bosnia, North Macedonia and Montenegro. If these were still united, the US would be about 10th again.
> 
> View attachment 116928



Qué?

Okay, let's now consider if the old Soviet Union was still United, Germany still included parts of Poland and East Prussia... Dammit, what if the Roman empire were still in place... And the Ottoman Empire.

What if Pakistan and Bangladesh was still part of India?

IOW, how to feck is that even relevant?


----------



## satanoperca (22 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Qué?
> 
> Okay, let's now consider if the old Soviet Union was still United, Germany still included parts of Poland and East Prussia... Dammit, what if the Roman empire were still in place... And the Ottoman Empire.
> 
> ...



I think you missed the point, take off those rose coloured glasses, it is easier to see.


----------



## satanoperca (22 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> None of that changes much.  Its proportional to population size that matches whats happening. You are misdirecting by using deaths while ignoring population size differences. Its a bit weird except for propaganda purposes.
> 
> Lower populations should be able to deal with emergencies a lot faster then oversized ones.



Can you demonstrate where this has happened?

It is just not population but population density that is the key. Everything is in the detail.


----------



## basilio (22 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> None of that changes much.  Its proportional to population size that matches whats happening. You are misdirecting by using deaths while ignoring population size differences. Its a bit weird except for propaganda purposes.
> 
> *Lower populations should be able to deal with emergencies a lot faster then oversized ones.*




Really ? That doesn't make any sense. Advanced countries should have the medical expertise and logistics to effectively tackle COVID regardless of population.

In any case the issue I was raising was the pressure on US medical  facilities with COVID now raging out of control. And no doubt this pressure on hospitals is being felt across Europe as almost all countries  are experiencing a rapid increase in illnesses and hospitalizations.


----------



## wayneL (22 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> I think you missed the point, take off those rose coloured glasses, it is easier to see.



If you stop being a pompous tw@t for a millisecond, maybe you can explain to me how bellanuit's comment is relevant and how my comment has anything to do with rose coloured glasses.

Excuse me for using a little bit of satire to expose how utterly ludicrous his point was.

Happy for you to point at how I am wrong, if you can.


----------



## satanoperca (22 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> If you stop being a pompous tw@t for a millisecond, maybe you can explain to me how bellanuit's comment is relevant and how my comment has anything to do with rose coloured glasses.
> 
> Excuse me for using a little bit of satire to expose how utterly ludicrous his point was.
> 
> Happy for you to point at how I am wrong, if you can.




Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

Read your own comments with those rose coloured glasses off, I don't provide online therapy.


----------



## wayneL (22 December 2020)

satanoperca said:


> Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.
> 
> Read your own comments with those rose coloured glasses off, I don't provide online therapy.



Oh come on.   

Tell me how I'm wrong.

Waiting... Waiting...


----------



## wayneL (22 December 2020)

And just to be sure... Words matter bro.

You will notice that I did not actually call you a pompous tw@t, rather, I invited you to stop behaving like one.

This is an important distinction.

It means I have every faith in you that you may be able to step away from such fallacious argument, and step up to actual logic driven argument.

I know you can do it bruh.


----------



## bellenuit (22 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> Qué?
> 
> Okay, let's now consider if the old Soviet Union was still United, Germany still included parts of Poland and East Prussia... Dammit, what if the Roman empire were still in place... And the Ottoman Empire.
> 
> ...




It's all numbers. The question was asked as to why the US has "improved" its deaths per million ranking from about 10th worst to 12 worst. I gave the correct reason, that it is because of an apparent outbreak among a group of small countries that were part of the former Yugoslavia. 4 countries from that region, with populations between just 600K and 3.3M, occupy places in the first 10 positions.

The fact that they have broken apart relatively recently is relevant. If they hadn't the US ranking would be worse. Correct?

If you don't see the relevance of a huge country having an extremely high deaths per million rate being a lot more significant in global terms that a bunch of minuscule countries having similar death rates, then little I can do. If the US improved its ranking because other countries with similarly large populations, China, India, Russia say, moved ahead of it in deaths per million people, then that would be significant reason to ask what is the US doing right or what are those countries doing wrong. But when it is a group of minnows from the same region, then their pure size relative to the US is the significant cause of the rate change. The fact they were all part of the same country not too long ago shows that their jump in rankings may be very much due to local issues and the US's improvement does not give us any insight into whether the US is doing better or worse.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (22 December 2020)

A good wrap up of "2020" The Movie by your favourite Film Critics



gg


----------



## wayneL (22 December 2020)

bellenuit said:


> It's all numbers. The question was asked as to why the US has "improved" its deaths per million ranking from about 10th worst to 12 worst. I gave the correct reason, that it is because of an apparent outbreak among a group of small countries that were part of the former Yugoslavia. 4 countries from that region, with populations between just 600K and 3.3M, occupy places in the first 10 positions.
> 
> The fact that they have broken apart relatively recently is relevant. If they hadn't the US ranking would be worse. Correct?
> 
> If you don't see the relevance of a huge country having an extremely high deaths per million rate being a lot more significant in global terms that a bunch of minuscule countries having similar death rates, then little I can do. If the US improved its ranking because other countries with similarly large populations, China, India, Russia say, moved ahead of it in deaths per million people, then that would be significant reason to ask what is the US doing right or what are those countries doing wrong. But when it is a group of minnows from the same region, then their pure size relative to the US is the significant cause of the rate change. The fact they were all part of the same country not too long ago shows that their jump in rankings may be very much due to local issues and the US's improvement does not give us any insight into whether the US is doing better or worse.



That doesn't change by point... you can split or combine all sorts of Nations that have changed boundaries in the last 20, 30, 50 years to get the statistics that you want to make some sort of political point.

It's just not valid.


----------



## bellenuit (22 December 2020)

wayneL said:


> That doesn't change by point... you can split or combine all sorts of Nations that have changed boundaries in the last 20, 30, 50 years to get the statistics that you want to make some sort of political point.
> 
> It's just not valid.




Of course it's valid. You just do not like the answer. 

If Yugoslavia hadn't disintegrated, the US would be number 9 in deaths per million. If, in addition, you excluded countries with populations under 80,000, the US would be the 7th worst. To see the true catastrophe that is the US response, it needs to be ranked against its peers, with insignificant outliers excluded. Of course doing that is making a political point. But the political point need making to counter the "_we are the best in the world_" claims of the liar in chief.


----------



## noirua (22 December 2020)




----------



## noirua (22 December 2020)




----------



## satanoperca (22 December 2020)

bellenuit said:


> Of course it's valid. You just do not like the answer.



It does if you are wearing rose coloured glasses, emblassed with Chump - Making America Great Again, captioned with "One day".


----------



## moXJO (23 December 2020)

bellenuit said:


> If Yugoslavia hadn't disintegrated, the US would be number 9 in deaths per million. If, in addition, you excluded countries with populations under 80,000, the US would be the 7th worst. To see the true catastrophe that is the US response, it needs to be ranked against its peers, with insignificant outliers excluded. Of course doing that is making a political point. But the political point need making to counter the "_we are the best in the world_" claims of the liar in chief.



First off, many countries are not giving proper figures. US would actually be further down the list from what I am hearing. Think Turkey among a long list of others. 
Also, if you had been to the US, you would think 3rd world status in most areas. 

Secondly Belgium, Italy, Spain, UK, France is just behind the US it will close the gap imo. These countries are not minnows. And this is far from over. Still no telling how its going to roll out. But no one thought that a vaccine would get here that fast. And its being rolled out. So will be interesting to see if the figures start changing.

Lockdowns are being used along with masks. We have a variety of approaches among the top ten and they obviously failed at some point.


----------



## bellenuit (23 December 2020)

There are indications that the US is also underreported.



moXJO said:


> Secondly Belgium, Italy, Spain, UK, France is just behind the US it will close the gap imo. These countries are not minnows. And this is far from over. Still no telling how its going to roll out. But no one thought that a vaccine would get here that fast. And its being rolled out. So will be interesting to see if the figures start changing.




Except for France, all the countries you listed are currently worse than the US when it comes to deaths per million people, so they getting worse will not improve the US ranking. The fact that there are some peers with comparable rankings to the US is not something that the US should find comforting, but something they all should be ashamed of.


----------



## moXJO (23 December 2020)

bellenuit said:


> There are indications that the US is also underreported.
> 
> 
> 
> Except for France, all the countries you listed are currently worse than the US when it comes to deaths per million people, so they getting worse will not improve the US ranking. The fact that there are some peers with comparable rankings to the US is not something that the US should find comforting, but something they all should be ashamed of.



Under-reported my ass. In case like Turkey we are talking potentially 20x the numbers reported. 

The fact that everyone is having difficulty in controlling flare ups once they arise shows that it is hit and miss. US is only brought up as a political play. 
"Oh look how bad they are doing".
Meanwhile gnoring multiple factors.
All those other countries have tried multiple methods of dealing with suppression of the virus. And multiple methods have failed on 2nd waves. Not necessarily due to the methods employed but on various factors that came into play.


----------



## basilio (23 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Under-reported my ass. In case like Turkey we are talking potentially 20x the numbers reported.
> 
> The fact that everyone is having difficulty in controlling flare ups once they arise shows that it is hit and miss. US is only brought up as a political play.
> "Oh look how bad they are doing".
> ...




Bit touchy are  we Moxjo about how the US under Trump has mismanaged COVID ? I thought you were the person who said Trump totally dropped the ball on tackling COVID from August onwards and focused on winning the election ?


----------



## moXJO (23 December 2020)

basilio said:


> Bit touchy are  we Moxjo about how the US under Trump has mismanaged COVID ? I thought you were the person who said Trump totally dropped the ball on tackling COVID from August onwards and focused on winning the election ?



Not at all I already said Trump dropped the ball in the end. Perhaps your memory is as selective as your numbers.

The bigger question is why are you and a few others obsessed in Trump?
Literally any attack you can make by fudging the narrative in any thread. New York and New Jersey were topping the lists for US states and they (in the past few months) were adhering to restrictions.

I find it a bit droll when the obvious bias once again gets dragged out to push the agenda once again.

Get over it


----------



## noirua (24 December 2020)

US records second deadliest day with 3,400 COVID-19 deaths | Daily Mail Online
*US records second deadliest day with 3,400 COVID-19 deaths and a record 117k hospitalizations - as Biden says the 'darkest days' of the pandemic are still ahead*


----------



## noirua (24 December 2020)

Matt Hancock [UK Health Secretary] plunges MORE parts of England into Tier 4 from Boxing Day | Daily Mail Online
Another new strain of covid 19 found.


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2020)

It sounds like Victoria is brewing up another mess.









						Airlines threaten to abandon Melbourne over COVID-19 test requirement
					

International airlines say Victoria's COVID-19 testing and quarantine regime for flight crew is unworkable and have threatened to suspend services to Melbourne.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
International airlines say Victoria's new COVID-19 testing and quarantine regime for flight crew is unworkable and have threatened to suspend services to Melbourne in response to the state's attempt to plug a gap in its coronavirus defences. 

It comes a day after Victorian authorities imposed a new program of mandatory quarantine in government-managed hotels when transiting through Melbourne, similar to an approach NSW put in place this week.

Unlike NSW, however, Victoria requires crews to take a COVID-19 test on arrival and they are only allowed to leave quarantine for their return flight once they have been cleared with a negative result.


Airline staff who test positive are required to spend 14 days in hotel quarantine and their fellow crew members also face a stint in isolation. Airlines fear the rules could result in pilots and cabin crew being stranded in Australia leaving nobody to fly their aircraft out of the country.

One senior source at an international airline, who asked to remain anonymous because they were not authorised to speak to the media and feared jeopardising negotiations with the Victorian government, said the company was considering suspending flights to Victoria.


----------



## noirua (24 December 2020)

NYC healthcare worker has allergic reaction to COVID vaccine (msn.com) 

Pix 11 reports that the NYC healthcare worker is now in a 'stable condition' but that the reaction was 'severe'.


----------



## macca (25 December 2020)

I have been talking about Vitamin D as a preventative for Covid and  other URTI for some time. 

This link is an in depth look at a lot of studies from around the world, I found it quite interesting but it does go for one hour.

Absolute no brainer that the vast majority of people should be supplementing and our medical profession need a rocket for being so incompetent


----------



## IFocus (26 December 2020)

noirua said:


> NYC healthcare worker has allergic reaction to COVID vaccine (msn.com)
> 
> Pix 11 reports that the NYC healthcare worker is now in a 'stable condition' but that the reaction was 'severe'.





This is starting to look to be a problem with early indicators showing higher rates of allergic reactions than flu injections.

A couple of theories around as to why but no smoking gun yet.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out and could no doubt influence which vaccines gets rolled out in Oz.

We are the lucky country again as we wait and watch.


----------



## wayneL (26 December 2020)

IFocus said:


> ....wait and watch.




As I've said elsewhere, risk vs reward, or cost Vs benefit if you like.

Standing back and watching is absolutely the best approach for now IMNTBCHO


----------



## noirua (27 December 2020)

Covid-infected Santa visits Belgium care home and kills 18 residents after 121 fell ill in outbreak | Daily Mail Online
His administration has called the care home 'a totally irresponsible organization.'

Mr Caeyers said: 'Initially [the care home] said that the rules had been followed, but then straight away you receive photos from the families of residents where you can see that this wasn't the case.'

The volunteer dressed as Sinterklaas was welcomed in to spread Christmas cheer among the 150 residents of the Hemelrijck care home in Mol, Antwerp (pictured: residents enjoying mulled wine and oranges as Santa and his Zwarte Piet ('Black Pete') helpers visit the home)





The home had claimed that social-distancing was observed, but the Sinterklaas was pictured standing very close to the elderly residents


----------



## noirua (28 December 2020)

South Korean records its first cases of new super-infectious mutant coronavirus strain | Daily Mail Online 

The variant - thought to be more transmissible than others currently circulating - was found in three people who had entered South Korea from London on December 22, the Korea Disease Control and Prevention Agency (KDCA) said on Monday.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (28 December 2020)

macca said:


> I have been talking about Vitamin D as a preventative for Covid and  other URTI for some time.
> 
> This link is an in depth look at a lot of studies from around the world, I found it quite interesting but it does go for one hour.
> 
> Absolute no brainer that the vast majority of people should be supplementing and our medical profession need a rocket for being so incompetent




👍
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(20)30268-0/fulltext

gg


----------



## moXJO (29 December 2020)

I was wrong about NSW. People are bloody acting like idiots. Clumping together and ignoring the rules.


----------



## macca (29 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> I was wrong about NSW. People are bloody acting like idiots. Clumping together and ignoring the rules.




One mass gathering was mainly back packers, I assume they are stranded here and are hoping to be deported


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (29 December 2020)

My doctor tells me that unfortunately Covid-19 is a coronavirus and not a pox. It has few symptoms before it spreads and so on. There is I am told a more spreadable form in Queensland, now.  

If it were a pox particularly a pox that affected the face, people would not congregate and spread it, because of the pocks or holes in their face with slime oozing out of their face. 







This is because people in spite of all the publicity are not very bright when it comes to illness unless they can see it or have symptoms from it or are affected by it. 

And thus it spreads. 

That's what my doctor says. 

gg


----------



## noirua (29 December 2020)

Coronavirus China: Beijing locks down part of a district to prevent the spread of coronavirus | Daily Mail Online 

China's capital Beijing sealed off 10 areas of its north-eastern Shunyi district on Tuesday, the first lockdown in the city since the last coronavirus outbreak in the months of June and July.


----------



## DB008 (30 December 2020)

*Wuhan’s Covid Cases May Have Been 10 Times Higher, Study Shows*​​
Some 500,000 may have been infected in China’s virus epicenter
China has been criticized for allegedly undercounting its data
​The scale of the Covid-19 outbreak in Wuhan early this year may have been nearly 10 times the recorded tally, a study conducted by China’s public health authorities indicates, leaving the city where the coronavirus first took hold still well short of the immunity required to protect against a potential resurgence.​​About 4.4% of those tested were found to have specific antibodies that can fight off the pathogen that causes Covid-19, indicating they were infected some time in the past, according to a serological survey of more than 34,000 people conducted in April by the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention. The data was released late Monday.​​That ratio would suggest that with Wuhan home to about 11 million people, as many as 500,000 residents may have been infected, nearly 10 times more than the 50,000 confirmed Covid-19 cases reported by health authorities in mid-April, when the survey was conducted.​​China has been criticized internationally for its initial handling of the outbreak, which has spread around the world in a global pandemic in the year since the first cases emerged. The U.S. has raised questions about China’s accounting of the virus fallout in Wuhan, which was quickly eclipsed by larger outbreaks in Europe and North America. A number of revisions of the case and deaths data added to suspicions China was massaging the numbers.​


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ses-may-have-been-10-times-higher-study-shows




.​


----------



## noirua (30 December 2020)

WHO says coronavirus pandemic is not necessarily 'the big one' | Daily Mail Online 

The World Health Organization has warned that the coronavirus pandemic is 'not necessarily the big one' and that a more deadly virus could yet sweep the globe.


----------



## satanoperca (30 December 2020)

noirua said:


> WHO says coronavirus pandemic is not necessarily 'the big one' | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The World Health Organization has warned that the coronavirus pandemic is 'not necessarily the big one' and that a more deadly virus could yet sweep the globe.




It would be interesting to know the parameters of what would be defined as the big one.

Would it be 1% mortality rate across all age groups and countries? And even that would only be part of the picture.






Interesting figures, so if a virus wiped out approx 1% of the world population in a year, it would hardly make a dent on the growth of the bacteria/virus consuming the planet - humans. Approx 1 years growth.

The question is if a virus killed 1% of the world, what happens to the other 99%, what are the long term effects?

In order for the planet earth to keep housing us (virus) humans in a sustainable way, what can the earth support human population.

I also find it ironic, that countries spend $$$$$ to create weapons to kill humans and also spend $$$$$$ to save humans from weapons we cannot control, mother nature.


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2020)

Looks like people in nsw are finally doing the right thing.  Super quiet out there. Looks like everyone stayed at home. Its so quiet it looks like a Monday night.


----------



## noirua (1 January 2021)

Covid UK: 55,892 cases and 964 deaths as daily toll hits record high | Daily Mail Online 
*UK declares record-high 55,892 cases and another 964 deaths as SAGE warns even a brutal lockdown with schools shut for almost ALL children might not be enough to contain 'mutant' Covid amid fears restrictions will last into summer*


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (1 January 2021)

Come on all you lazy "fat" bastards on the General Chat Thread and enter the stock picking competition. 

And post in the thread of your pick. Let us get to 100 entries in the January 2021 Comp.

gg


----------



## noirua (1 January 2021)

Belgium's Covid Santa death toll rises to 27 | Daily Mail Online 

The Mol care center in northern Belgium had organised a December 4 visit of the beloved figure who usually spreads mirth and presents, but there is a possibility the actor who played him could have been a super spreader of Covid-19 unbeknownst to himself.


----------



## sptrawler (3 January 2021)

I was going to post this in the economic implications of coronavirus thread, but thought it was more general in nature so posted it here, priceless IMO, when you consider how many we have unemployed.








						Some farmers thrive, others despair, as seasonal worker crisis rages on
					

Farmers abandon crops in increasing numbers as frustration builds and negotiations between governments hit an impasse on the labour shortage crisis.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
_Increasingly having to abandon unpicked crops, farmers in some states have entered the new year with little progress on securing additional workers from the Pacific Islands to help with their harvests. 

Frustration is building in states where no progress has been made, with not all state, territory and federal governments agreeing on the path forward.

Growers traditionally use local labour, supplemented with backpackers or seasonal workers flown in from overseas.

But with a COVID-induced shortfall of 26,000 seasonal workers, produce in some areas is withering before it can be picked and crops are dying before they can be harvested, as debate over what to do about the labour crisis continues._




> _"We need thousands, tens of thousands, more workers and we needed them yesterday — already Queensland crops have been left in the field to die."_



_There has been much criticism of the inaction of state governments in finalising quarantine arrangements for foreign workers.

However, Mr Cattle said the problem could be solved with the stroke of a pen if the Federal Government set up a travel bubble for Pacific Islanders.

He suggested the New Zealand travel bubble system be adapted to include 22,000 pre-vetted islander workers.


Federal Agriculture Minister David Littleproud this week repeated calls for the states to take action and fix the situation.

He said the situation had been coming "at us like a freight train" since March.

"We continue to press them to say that we're ready to stamp the visas … but we still haven't seen them come up with any large-scale quarantine arrangements," Mr Littleproud said.


Some states have made progress.

About 160 seasonal workers flew into Perth from Vanuatu last week.

Another flight has been approved to bring a further 158 Pacific Islanders into Western Australia next week, with a third group expected to arrive in March._

*What a hoot, then you read this article.*








						Out-of-work Aussies are being offered up to $6,000 to relocate for harvest jobs, but only 148 have signed up
					

Attempts to encourage Australians who lost their jobs due to the coronavirus pandemic to take up farm work appear to be failing, despite large cash incentives.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
_Attempts to encourage Australians who lost their jobs due to the coronavirus pandemic to take up farm work appear to be failing, despite cash incentives to help cover accommodation and the cost of moving to rural areas. 

According to figures from the Federal Department of Employment, a program that offers Australians who move to regional areas to take up harvest jobs has only attracted 148 workers in the month it has been operating.

The Relocation Assistance to Take Up a Job program offers workers up to $6,000 to cover things like transport, accommodation, and uniform — provided the employee works a minimum of six weeks.

"The numbers really aren't surprising," said Tyson Cattle from horticulture lobby group AusVeg._



> _"We're supportive of those sorts of initiatives, and we'll always look to employ Australians first and foremost, but trying to engage with the domestic worker audience just hasn't worked."_





*Australia you bloody beauty, you know you are standing in it*.
Improve the NBN so we can get uber eats quicker and not interupt our bloody streaming, at least lock downs aren't a problem, sitting on our ar$e has become a national pastime lol . 
I think 2021, is going to be exciting.


----------



## moXJO (3 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I was going to post this in the economic implications of coronavirus thread, but thought it was more general in nature so posted it here, priceless IMO, when you consider how many we have unemployed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its hard bloody work. Not surprised no one wants to do it. Farmers can be exploitive prcks too. I worked through a few rural towns when I was younger.
A mate of mine got stuck building fences in the middle of nowhere. They charged him $10 a bottle of water and $50 a meal (can food). He started drinking from a creek (40 degree days) getting sick and hallucinating. I ended up flying him out of there as he was lucky to get $40 for 12 hour days.

There's also the ones that use to rape backpackers. Others were complete racist/social retards. Or would work you over what you should have been doing.

So I'm not that surprised no one is jumping at it.


----------



## sptrawler (3 January 2021)

moXJO said:


> Its hard bloody work. Not surprised no one wants to do it. Farmers can be exploitive prcks too. I worked through a few rural towns when I was younger.
> A mate of mine got stuck building fences in the middle of nowhere. They charged him $10 a bottle of water and $50 a meal (can food). He started drinking from a creek (40 degree days) getting sick and hallucinating. I ended up flying him out of there as he was lucky to get $40 for 12 hour days.
> 
> There's also the ones that use to rape backpackers. Others were complete racist/social retards. Or would work you over what you should have been doing.
> ...



Sounds like all farmers should be put in jail. 
I can see why we are importing people to do the work. WOW 
Maybe a Royal Commission in the making, we have had them for a lot less serious issues.


----------



## macca (3 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like all farmers should be put in jail.
> I can see why we are importing people to do the work. WOW
> Maybe a Royal Commission in the making, we have had them for a lot less serious issues.




The main problem is the rate of pay and the costs involved to earn it.

Travel, accomm, food and then low wages are not going to appeal to someone getting "enough" on the dole

I read one article where the farmer was complaining that he could not get a supervisor to help with the crop. He said "I even offered $30 per hour and not one enquiry"

Someone serving coffee in an air conditioned cafe gets that much if we count the tips.

A married couple with a couple of kids are doing OK on the dole if they live in a country town paying $350 a week rent. If they get a few weeks work it only mucks up the routine of getting their payment.

If they said "we have an emergency, you can go picking  for 4 weeks and then go straight back on the dole with no waiting period" they would get a lot more.

Otherwise just tell the dolies, pick fruit, pay tax, still get dole and they will soon have their pickers


----------



## IFocus (3 January 2021)

moXJO said:


> Its hard bloody work. Not surprised no one wants to do it. Farmers can be exploitive prcks too. I worked through a few rural towns when I was younger.
> A mate of mine got stuck building fences in the middle of nowhere. They charged him $10 a bottle of water and $50 a meal (can food). He started drinking from a creek (40 degree days) getting sick and hallucinating. I ended up flying him out of there as he was lucky to get $40 for 12 hour days.
> 
> There's also the ones that use to rape backpackers. Others were complete racist/social retards. Or would work you over what you should have been doing.
> ...





The contractor scams are unbelievable as well shaking down workers for "fees"


----------



## orr (3 January 2021)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> 👍
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(20)30268-0/fulltext
> 
> gg



A sensible read...
Seems strange that in 2020 we still need to make clear that Vitamin *deficiencies* lead to disease and the susceptibility to them... 
Do Blackmores market a  Rickets cure ? At that level they'd be on safe ground. Unlike the sufferers.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 January 2021)

Conspiracy Theorists  look what the government is keeping from you.


----------



## moXJO (3 January 2021)

Out and about today (nsw).
At least 90% of people had masks. And I'd say 90% of those people don't know the rules around masks.

They are not a magic shield. They offer limited protection without the full ppe. They are to stop you spreading it when you breathe out or cough.

Keep your distance from others even while wearing one. It vastly increases your safety.

If your mask or anyone around you has a valve, if you cough it can actually shoot the virus a further distance from you onto others.

If its wet its no good. 

Keeping the same mask after being in a crowd is risky. Treat the front of the masks like they are covered in sht. Don't rub it round your car or touch it with your hands. Touch loops only.

Sanitise your hands before putting it on and after taking it off.

Wearing a mask outside with limited people is bloody pointless. Just keep your distance.

Throw it away. Or bag it and wash it.

Wear a mask in a crowd. If you have covid then you are the risk. It can still enter sides of masks, eyes if you cough on someone. You are the risk and it puts all the other people wearing one at risk. 

I'm not sold on wearing masks outdoors and think they have little protection value. However as a containment precaution they do stop the distance it can travel out of you.

But the majority of people don't know what to do with the bloody things or how they work and think they have a COVID shield on. Thats why WHO was reluctant to recommend them.


----------



## noirua (4 January 2021)

Hospitals seeing rise in patients 'as young as 30', intensive care doctor warns (msn.com)

But she said that in contrast to the first wave, there had been a massive rise in younger patients being admitted to intensive care.


----------



## basilio (4 January 2021)

Thanks Knobby. That Facebook link was priceless.

View attachment 117683


----------



## basilio (5 January 2021)

Came across this story from doctors in South Korea. Seems that COVID can be spread far more easily than suspected. 
This is probably not the case with all situations but the example outlined in the story is very concerning.
The story also highlights the stringent COVID  public protection measures undertaken in Sth Korea.









						Infected after 5 minutes, from 20 feet away: South Korea study shows coronavirus’s spread indoors
					

“Eating indoors at a restaurant is one of the riskiest things you can do in a pandemic,” says a civil and environmental engineering professor. “Even if there is distancing, as this shows and other studies show, the distancing is not...




					www.seattletimes.com


----------



## sptrawler (6 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If it gets into Africa, there could be problems, HIV is still pretty rampant there from what I've read.



That post was a year ago.
Well we are yet to see a HIV issue with the virus, but the new highly contagious strain has come out of Africa, so as we posed then the virus mutating in Africa was and is a real issue.
It really would be nice to now the whole truth with this virus IMO.


----------



## noirua (10 January 2021)

Aberfan survivor Bernard Thomas dies from coronavirus (msn.com)








						Aberfan disaster - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				









The white arches in Bryntaf Cemetery, Aberfan, which mark the graves of children killed in the disaster.








						How the people of Aberfan were repeatedly betrayed after the disaster
					

The disaster fund was plundered, the political response was inadequate and the inquest's verdict was accidental death




					www.walesonline.co.uk
				











						Fifty years on, the Aberfan disaster told by the people who were there
					

Many are telling their stories publicly for the first time.




					aberfan.walesonline.co.uk


----------



## noirua (11 January 2021)

Pope's personal doctor dies from coronavirus 'complications', aged 78 (msn.com) 
Fabrizio Soccorsi, who was chosen as the pontiff's personal medic in 2015, was hospitalised on Boxing Day for a previous oncological disease.


----------



## basilio (11 January 2021)

A number of ASF posters have been highlighting the value of Vitamin D supplements to improve the chances of people surviving/not getting COVID.

There's an excellent story in The Guardian which explores the outcomes around Vitamin D supplements. One fascinating point that came out in the story was that  from 1940 to 2013 margarine had been fortified with Vitamin D to improve peoples health.









						Does vitamin D combat Covid?
					

It’s cheap, widely available and might help us fend off the virus. So should we all be dosing up on the sunshine nutrient?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## macca (11 January 2021)

basilio said:


> A number of ASF posters have been highlighting the value of Vitamin D supplements to improve the chances of people surviving/not getting COVID.
> 
> There's an excellent story in The Guardian which explores the outcomes around Vitamin D supplements. One fascinating point that came out in the story was that  from 1940 to 2013 margarine had been fortified with Vitamin D to improve peoples health.
> 
> ...




Rather sad that it has to come from agitation by lay people rather than our so called "medical leaders"

I know it is hard to admit you are wrong but people are dying here, Doctor !


----------



## basilio (11 January 2021)

macca said:


> Rather sad that it has to come from agitation by lay people rather than our so called "medical leaders"
> 
> I know it is hard to admit you are wrong but people are dying here, Doctor !




Not quite so Macca.  If you read the story it was clear that it was doctors and such who were trialing and experimenting with Vitamin D  and pushing the case for widespread use as a "no regrets" option.


----------



## macca (11 January 2021)

I agree that the small number of Docs mentioned in the article are OK but my main complaint is the blind arrogance of the medical leaders in most countries

If our illustrious medical leaders simply told everyone to ensure they get 30 minutes of sunshine each day our Vitamin D reserves would soar.

As it is, I have no doubt that our great run against Covid is because so many of us already have reasonable Vit D levels from our normal activities and the fact it is Summer.

All those poor old people in Melbourne, Victorian winter and a sedentary indoor lifestyle, a 1000iu Vit D pill each day may well have saved many of them.

We will never know but the Indonesian study suggests that we could have saved most of them if their Vit D levels were 50+

Hopefully someone will give greater publicity to the details in that article, ASF gets quite a few people but it needs to go to mainstream media for it be of greater value


----------



## sptrawler (14 January 2021)

Another article on the vitamin D issue, I'm not following the thread so no bias, but apparently this is one of the largest studies carried out.








						Vitamin D supplements don't help ward off colds and flus, new research finds
					

How much vitamin D should a person take? The answer has long been a point of contention in the medical industry. Now a five-year research trial finds vitamin D supplements do not protect Australians from catching colds and flus.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:

_Lead researcher, Professor Rachel Neale said while the findings showed taking vitamin D did not stop people from getting respiratory tract infections, there was some evidence that it reduced the length and severity of infection.

"The key message is that if you are not vitamin D deficient, taking vitamin D is unlikely to stop you from getting a head cold or the flu," Professor Neale said.

"It may reduce the length of it a little bit, but not enough to really warrant taking vitamin D if you're not already vitamin D deficient_."


----------



## macca (14 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Another article on the vitamin D issue, I'm not following the thread so no bias, but apparently this is one of the largest studies carried out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I can only assume there is a typo in there, taking one pill a month could not possibly be right, if it is then what a waste of time.

I have been to the publishers website but cannot get access to the report, but the summary does not say whether the participants Vit D level was assessed at any time during the study.

Obviously, that is crucial to the outcome, if someone already has a Vit D level of 75nmol  then a pill a Day is not going to make much difference, let alone a pill a month.

It does not say what size pill was taken but if a person had 30 nmol then they are probably the ones that had a better result.

The whole principal with any supplement or vitamin is that they are of most benefit when there is a deficiency in the body. All good natural remedy people advocate that we get our requirements from food or in this case, from sunshine.

The study was done in Queensland, I would suggest that of all the places in the world that should have good Vit D levels then Qld could be the place with the highest average Vit D levels in the community.

A high percentage of people with pale skin living in a sunny location is a no brainer for high Vit D levels

As it has been written up by the ABC, to me the study was set up to fail, they must have been very disappointed that even though they set out to disprove Vit D effectiveness it still gave some improvement.


----------



## wayneL (15 January 2021)

This man in the last 6 months has become one of my favourite commentators


----------



## dutchie (17 January 2021)

Who is the f&kwit who allowed overseas tennis players & entourage to land in Australia (two with Covid).
Australia is the dumb country. Obviously have not learnt from the Cruise liner fiasco in Sydney and that all new infections come from overseas visitors.
Heads should roll for this stupidity.


----------



## wayneL (17 January 2021)

Follow the science, not the politics.

Good thread here:


----------



## SirRumpole (18 January 2021)

Dark clouds on the horizon ?









						'Proceeding with an abundance of caution': Australia asks for more information on Pfizer jab after Norwegian deaths
					

Australian officials are seeking more information about the Pfizer vaccine after 13 frail aged care residents in Norway experienced side effects and died after receiving the jab.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## noirua (18 January 2021)

Phil Spector dies aged 81 of coronavirus complications (msn.com)

The legendary music producer - who worked with some of the world's biggest artists including Tina Turner, The Beatles, and The Ramones and was the creator of The Wall of Sound music...

Spector was serving a 19-year sentence in prison for the murder...


----------



## rederob (18 January 2021)

@wayneL  suggests above that we follow the science.
The linked tweet states:
*"The evidence based science shows that medical face masks for the healthy do not alter rates of community transmission of SARSCoV2 while they contribute to the plastic pollution of planet. Cloth & masks of other materials increase rates of infection through nebulization spread." *​First, the initial claim cannot be replicated scientifically as it is both unethical and physically impossible to establish the necessary parameters to research community transmission.
More importantly,* all authorities* advocate the wearing of masks for reasons proven in the linked tweet's science paper, showing only bandanas and gaiters to be as dangerous as not wearing a mask at all:






This statement from the linked science paper is a fair summary of its findings:
*"In effect, the mask acts as a temporal low-pass filter, smoothens the droplet rate over time, and reduces the overall transmission."*​
So when we follow the science it is easy to see why politicians who have also followed it are unanimous in mask advocacy.


----------



## IFocus (18 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> Follow the science, not the politics.
> 
> Good thread here:






Wasted my time reading his Twitter the man is a troll spouting rubbish making endless BS claims, seriously.


----------



## wayneL (18 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> Wasted my time reading his Twitter the man is a troll spouting rubbish making endless BS claims, seriously.



Always interested in evidence and half the reason why I post a lot of these links

If you could explain which of these claims  are BS, it would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## IFocus (18 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> Always interested in evidence and half the reason why I post a lot of these links
> 
> If you could explain which of these claims  are BS, it would be greatly appreciated.





There is endless misinformation regarding COVID you could start with lock downs don't work.


----------



## wayneL (18 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> There is endless misinformation regarding COVID you could start with lock downs don't work.



They don't. Look at the data on the global scale.


----------



## wayneL (18 January 2021)




----------



## IFocus (18 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> They don't. Look at the data on the global scale.





They do work what doesn't work is bad management, politics and fringe misinformation of lock downs instead of science, UK and US great examples.

Australia / NZ examples of well managed lock downs with over all deaths lower than 2019.


----------



## rederob (18 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> There is endless misinformation regarding COVID you could start with lock downs don't work.



Wuhan proved the effectiveness of lockdowns and, as you point out, those nations which have done best in combatting covid put in place lockdowns, in conjunction with other mitigation measures.
People who misrepresent science and promote untruths about covid can be likened to Trump's enablers.  They are dangers to the wellbeing of our society. 
Here's what medical experts propose to get on top of the virus.


----------



## wayneL (20 January 2021)

A comprehensive analysis of covid in Sweden, Vis a vis excess deaths (long read, but good):









						Final Report on Swedish Mortality 2020, Anno Covidius
					

Fourier Cycles & Epicycles 2020 was an “interesting” year 2020 – “The Year of Doomsday Modeling” Scientists and researchers from lots of different disciplines prod…



					softwaredevelopmentperestroika.wordpress.com
				






> SNIP:
> *Conclusion*
> So, what do we make of all the above facts & figures ? Did Sweden really experience a severe deadly pandemic, a “once in 100 years flu”, with people dying in unprecedented numbers during 2020…?
> 
> ...


----------



## rederob (20 January 2021)

@wayneL needs to present a balanced perspective to be credible.




Excess deaths is a useful but inexact reference point for the severity of covid-19, as the above shows.
For the first few months of 2020 New Zealand experienced excess death rates up to 20 percentage points higher than Sweden, and that was before covid had any influence.
On the other hand Norway shows an excess death rate up to 10% in August/September despite a grand total of 17 covid deaths in that period:
	

		
			
		

		
	





Numerous studies previously linked in ASF threads have shown Sweden to be a rather poor example of what "successful" represents in terms of thwarting covid.  In particular, Denmark and Norway have done much better from both economic and covid mitigation perspectives.
If we compared Sweden with Brazil, the later widely recognised as being ravaged by covid, we learn that Sweden actually has a far higher per capita death rate.
Sweden is the poster child of those who believe little needed to be done, and all would be ok because this is just a bit worse than a seasonal flu. However the only way to paint such a rosy picture is to cherrypick sources.
A more comprehensible picture of covid's effects can be found in the USA where covid deaths are already equal to the total number of their soldiers who died in WWII.  These deaths have occurred despite various mitigation strategies being implemented, which leaves us to wonder what would have happened if they did nothing at all.  Or we could have looked at the UK which just experienced their highest daily death counts, and should have learnt by now what had to be done to counter such carnage.


----------



## IFocus (20 January 2021)

rederob said:


> @wayneL needs to present a balanced perspective to be credible.
> View attachment 118745
> 
> Excess deaths is a useful but inexact reference point for the severity of covid-19, as the above shows.
> ...





I think Sweden stopped being the poster boy for relaxed approach to COVID quite some time ago particularly after the economy tanked and then the King came out and publicly stated Sweden's approach had been a failure.


----------



## wayneL (20 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> I think Sweden stopped being the poster boy for relaxed approach to COVID quite some time ago particularly after the economy tanked and then the King came out and publicly stated Sweden's approach had been a failure.



Did you read the analysis?


----------



## noirua (21 January 2021)

__





						COVID-19 Thematic Website - Together, We Fight the Virus
					





					www.coronavirus.gov.hk
				




The DH will issue quarantine orders to these returnees. The relevant government department will also arrange electronic wristbands for them. According to quarantine orders, they shall neither leave their hotel rooms nor move around in the hotel during the entire quarantine period. Leaving designated rooms will be regarded as a breach of the quarantine order and constitutes a criminal offence. Offenders are subject to a maximum imprisonment for six months and fine of $25,000.


----------



## IFocus (21 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> Did you read the analysis?





I did it was twisted logic combined with presenting the data to back the argument.

It simply didn't stand up.

Personally I was hoping Sweden could be an outlier but COVID wasn't having any of it COVID just doesn't care about ideology.


----------



## wayneL (21 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> I did it was twisted logic combined with presenting the data to back the argument.
> 
> It simply didn't stand up.
> 
> Personally I was hoping Sweden could be an outlier but COVID wasn't having any of it COVID just doesn't care about ideology.



LOL, okay.

Looking forward to your analysis of why that is so.


----------



## IFocus (21 January 2021)

wayneL said:


> LOL, okay.
> 
> Looking forward to your analysis of why that is so.





This was at the opening 



*"2020 – “The Year of Doomsday Modeling”*

Scientists and researchers from lots of different disciplines produced lots of theories and mathematical models intended to explain and predict Covid and its impact.

Models that in most cases eventually proved to vastly inflate and overestimate the risks & resulting deaths. It appears that most of these scientists fell in love with their own models & theories, and thus failed to take real world data and reality into account.

Recall all the doomsday models predicting massive deaths already during the “First Wave”…?"


Its a shocker, in Australia the early success of the approach to combat COVID was due to modelling which was surprisingly extremely accurate.

I remember at the start of COVID vividly the debate between infectious disease experts  (Australian) on the best way to deal with COVID when little was known.

One of the experts talked abut modelling (whose numbers were spot on)  verses another who had worked front line SARS, Ebola etc who talked a bout contact tracing, surveillance, separation etc again spot on.


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2021)

This is the way to shut the tennis players up, who are in quarantine, do it the China way, at least it works. lol
Many on here have lauded the China way, as the right way, I hope they put their hands up first.








						China builds massive COVID-19 quarantine camp as outbreak continues
					






					www.9news.com.au
				




What do you mean there is no gym or hot showers?  OMG give me a break, I'm precious. 😂


----------



## noirua (23 January 2021)

22 January 2021
In a press conference with Professor Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance, the UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson announced that early evidence suggests that the UK variant of COVID-19 “may be associated with a higher degree of mortality.” Johnson also clarified that the vaccines being used in the UK “remain effective both against the old variant and this new variant.”


----------



## moXJO (23 January 2021)

NSW got it right again. People really dug into berjiggles saying it was going to run out of control. But her and her team have done a fantastic job while allowing as much freedom as possible.


----------



## basilio (24 January 2021)

The rapid spread of the new more infectious strain of COVID is raising infection and death rates across many countries.
Unfortunately it has also entered Australia via the Tennis Open tournament. The Guardian  COVID blog  covers this situation

We don't want this to escape..









						Spain's defence chief quits over alleged vaccination queue-jumping – as it happened
					

This blog is now closed. We’ve launched a new blog at the link below:




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (27 January 2021)

For all the posters on here, who reckon China have nailed the  containment of the covid 19 outbreak, I wonder if there would be a similar round of hip, hip hooray for ScoMo if he introduced China's testing. 😂









						'Endless shame': Chinese social media responds to anal swab testing for COVID-19
					

China enforces strict new measures, including anal swab testing, as COVID-19 cases surge ahead of Lunar New Year, usually the country's busiest time for travel.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Groups deemed necessary for "close monitoring", including international arrivals, are being subjected to four tests — *a nasal swab, a throat swab, a blood test and an anal swab.*

"Applying extra anal swabs can improve the detection rate of infection and reduce missed diagnosis," Li Tongzeng, associate director of respiratory and infectious diseases at Beijing's You'an Hospital, told state broadcaster Central Chinese Television (CCTV).

Douyacai, a student returning from South Korea, had her anal swab in Beijing on her 14th day of quarantine.

She wrote that the test was carried out by medical personnel with two swabs.



> "Just endless shame. No other feelings. Good luck," Douyacai wrote.



Winny, a student based in Australia, said she received an anal swab while in quarantine in the city of Guangzhou


----------



## basilio (30 January 2021)

Great story about a very special COVID case in Australia. Apparently a 50 year old man on the Central Coast had the most amazing immune response to the disease. Makes him very important in developing effective vaccines.









						‘Immunological unicorn’: the Australian lab growing coronavirus – and its startling discovery
					

Researchers walk through three negative-pressure chambers before entering the submarine-like structure




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## jbocker (30 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> For all the posters on here, who reckon China have nailed the  containment of the covid 19 outbreak, I wonder if there would be a similar round of hip, hip hooray for ScoMo if he introduced China's testing. 😂
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope they use separate swabs.
It is also going to look pretty ugly at drive through clinics with Butts poking out of all the car windows.


----------



## The Triangle (31 January 2021)

Now Perths got covid.  

Will enjoy watching McGowan on this one.  He is going to cop it for all the crap he gave the east.  

They need to put the army in charge of quarantine.  Not part time uber drivers.  Need 100% success not 99.9%

#stoptheflights.


----------



## IFocus (31 January 2021)

Attacks on McGowan from the East will just improve his polling for the coming election I would think.

It will be interesting to see how it got out after 10 months . Maybe people got lax.

Went down to do some panic buying at the local supermarket but out done by the hordes already there panic buying so went home.

Are you stocked up SP?


----------



## satanoperca (31 January 2021)

IFocus said:


> Attacks on McGowan from the East will just improve his polling for the coming election I would think.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how it got out after 10 months . Maybe people got lax.
> 
> ...



We on the east have plenty of toilet paper, happy to send some over to west friends. Lol


----------



## IFocus (1 February 2021)

satanoperca said:


> We on the east have plenty of toilet paper, happy to send some over to west friends. Lol





After the news got out yesterday I went down to the local supermarket to get some milk... it was grid locked around the area so gave up and went to a little local shop which had sold out of every thing with the owner looking very happy.

Heard later that SP must have taken all the toilet paper, shelves were apparently empty  .

If this is the UK variant we may have a problem, but fingers crossed. 

Talking of our Eastern State friends what is it with NSW lecturing other states?

Its weird if we have to shut down mining and oil & gas because of COVID it will directly affect Australia's wealth. 

A site or oil platform only needs one case game over.

NSW Deputy Premier brands WA's hard border as 'pointless' following COVID-19 case, new restrictions​
Mr Barilaro's admonishments to Mr McGowan come after many months of ill-will between the top state politicians in Queensland, NSW and WA.

On January 22, NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian said WA owed her state millions for Sydney's hotel quarantine program, which takes the bulk of returning overseas travellers from every state and territory.









						'Pointless, unrealistic': NSW Deputy Premier ridicules WA amid new COVID-19 case
					

John Barilaro says he hopes WA has "learnt first-hand an elimination strategy is unrealistic" as NSW records its 15th day without any local COVID-19 cases.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (1 February 2021)

IFocus said:


> After the news got out yesterday I went down to the local supermarket to get some milk... it was grid locked around the area so gave up and went to a little local shop which had sold out of every thing with the owner looking very happy.
> 
> Heard later that SP must have taken all the toilet paper, shelves were apparently empty  .
> 
> ...



Hard borders are cheaper then all the hotel rooms you have to pay for.


----------



## bellenuit (1 February 2021)

satanoperca said:


> We on the east have plenty of toilet paper, happy to send some over to west friends. Lol




New or used?


----------



## satanoperca (1 February 2021)

bellenuit said:


> New or used?



Happy for you to recycle, will make sure it is in a triple-sealed bag before sending


----------



## macca (1 February 2021)

Now they have got rid of that pesky orange fella they can start publishing some research on Covid, seems that Mr Trump was right about what to do about Covid............ funny that

Article published in the AJM supporting Hydrox, zinc and an AB

AntimalarialsHydroxychloroquine (HCQ) is an antimalarial/anti-inflam-matory drug that impairs endosomal transfer of virionswithin human cells. HCQ is also a zinc ionophore that









						Pathophysiological Basis and Rationale for Early Outpatient Treatment of SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) Infection
					

Approximately 9 months of the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavius-2 (SARS-CoV-2 [COVID-19]) spreading across the globe has led to widespread …




					www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## satanoperca (1 February 2021)

macca said:


> Now they have got rid of that pesky orange fella they can start publishing some research on Covid, seems that Mr Trump was right about what to do about Covid............ funny that
> 
> Article published in the AJM supporting Hydrox, zinc and an AB
> 
> ...



You cannot be serious, over 400,000 deaths in the US on his watch, are you nuts. He had no f----king idea, go ask his lawyers, oh that is right he cannot find any.


----------



## macca (1 February 2021)

satanoperca said:


> You cannot be serious, over 400,000 deaths in the US on his watch, are you nuts. He had no f----king idea, go ask his lawyers, oh that is right he cannot find any.



Go and read the report, people are dying because preventative measures are not being put in place ASAP.

They had a US senate enquiry, Doctors pleading with them to take action as soon as people get sick, we can ease the symptoms in a few days they said.

Instead they wait until they are Very sick then take them to hospital and try to catch up.

Same here in OZ, a proven treatment with Ivermectin, as soon as someone tests positive bung them on Ivermectin, Zinc and Doxy AB. Tested and proven to work.

If a person gets the flu they don't wait until they are dying then take them to hospital, they start treatment at home, we Must do the same with Covid.

The genie is out of the bottle mate, we are not going to get it back in again, we need to learn how to live with this coming back time after time.

The easiest way is to put people on the treatment immediately if they test positive.


----------



## macca (1 February 2021)

FYI, published last July, 

* "tens of thousands have died Unnecessarily"*

<<As professor of epidemiology at Yale School of Public Health, I have authored over 300 peer-reviewed publications and currently hold senior positions on the editorial boards of several leading journals. I am usually accustomed to advocating for positions within the mainstream of medicine, so have been flummoxed to find that, in the midst of a crisis, I am fighting for a treatment that the data fully support but which, for reasons having nothing to do with a correct understanding of the science, has been pushed to the sidelines. As a result, tens of thousands of patients with COVID-19 are dying unnecessarily. Fortunately, the situation can be reversed easily and quickly.>>









						The key to defeating COVID-19 already exists. We need to start using it | Opinion
					

Contrary to what you hear, there is clear-cut medical evidence for the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine.



					www.newsweek.com
				




no one is saying that everyone would have lived but by easing demands on hospitals we can give better care to those who need it


----------



## rederob (1 February 2021)

macca said:


> Go and read the report, people are dying because preventative measures are not being put in place ASAP.
> 
> They had a US senate enquiry, Doctors pleading with them to take action as soon as people get sick, we can ease the symptoms in a few days they said.
> 
> ...



You need to read the report, as *there is no magic bullet*.
With over 100 million cases worldwide, and hospitalisation rates rising in places like the UK, the medical profession continues to search for the best patient outcomes possible.
If it was as easy as you have painted for the past year, the remedy would have been in place a very long time ago.
There is every chance cholate is a cure, as all my friends eat it regularly and none have ever tested positive.  For that matter, maybe Vegemite is the go.


----------



## satanoperca (1 February 2021)

macca said:


> Same here in OZ, a proven treatment with Ivermectin, as soon as someone tests positive bung them on Ivermectin, Zinc and Doxy AB. Tested and proven to work.



Invermectin - that is what I used to treat my tropic fish as a broad base solution to problems (general environmental, that I was responsible for) - for human application I would need to research further
Zinc - being a male, most male are deficient in zinc, for me I used zinc to help reduce my alopecia, plus it had the extra bonus of being harder (wink) than ususal. So given we do not get enough of this trace element in our foods today, it might help.
Doxy AB - who knows, prefer good health, balanced diet and exercise, I have found is a better solution.

Sunlight and Vitamin D - best boost for fighting any virus out there and it is FREE.

As for Chump man, he was a fool.


----------



## macca (1 February 2021)

satanoperca said:


> Invermectin - that is what I used to treat my tropic fish as a broad base solution to problems (general environmental, that I was responsible for) - for human application I would need to research further
> Zinc - being a male, most male are deficient in zinc, for me I used zinc to help reduce my alopecia, plus it had the extra bonus of being harder (wink) than ususal. So given we do not get enough of this trace element in our foods today, it might help.
> Doxy AB - who knows, prefer good health, balanced diet and exercise, I have found is a better solution.
> 
> ...



The whole point of the Doctors statements is that not enough is being done to slow/prevent the development of serious cases of Covid.

I agree 100% with sunshine/ Vitamin D but I have seen absolutely no sign of our medical profession revealing that to the public. 

How simple is it to say that Vitamin D helps all other upper respiratory conditions so it might well help with Covid, get some sun every day folks !!

For Ivermectin look up Professor Borody, he worked it out, sent the details to both NSW and Federal Govts and they ignored him.

In the meantime they are using it in India with good results and it was stated at the US Enquiry that the treatment had over 90% success rate with complete clearance within 5-8 days.

The Docs that have tried it are confident that it works

We need to have an ongoing treatment protocol in place, we can't lock down millions of people every time one person gets Covid. 

Lock the sick person and their close family down and put any casual, possible contacts on a treatment plan.


----------



## rederob (1 February 2021)

macca said:


> The whole point of the Doctors statements is that not enough is being done to slow/prevent the development of serious cases of Covid.
> 
> I agree 100% with sunshine/ Vitamin D but I have seen absolutely no sign of our medical profession revealing that to the public.
> 
> ...



Just quote the best evidence rather than a stream of anecdote.
Some treatment is better than nothing. 
Some treatments have severe side effects - HCQ is an example.
Being fit and healthy with a balanced diet is the best defence against all illness.
As it stands, there are no treatments that are *proven* to be of significant benefit, although some success has been found with a range of drugs.


----------



## satanoperca (1 February 2021)

rederob said:


> Just quote the best evidence rather than a stream of anecdote.
> Some treatment is better than nothing.
> Some treatments have severe side effects - HCQ is an example.
> Being fit and healthy with a balanced diet is the best defence against all illness.
> As it stands, there are no treatments that are *proven* to be of significant benefit, although some success has been found with a range of drugs.



Please Redrob, don't apply logic and reason to a debate, it does not make sense.

Reality is, there is no cure and never will be, but taking the necessary steps to reduce the chances of becoming ill is simple and @macca the establishment, being those the profit from disease and disappear and not going to encourage the masses to do something that the cannot profit from (protect or own), it is up to us simple fools (me) to do the simple things, like getting exercise, going outdoors, smiling at my neighbours, trying to eat the best produce I can afford and accepting we are all the same, we will die sometime.

None of what I advocate is a cure, but doing some, will reduce the risk of dying if you contract this disease or any others. 

Well, being is the part of the answer to combacting Covid and Covid 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. 

@macca , I agree will cannot lockdown forever, fear is a human emotion that has been used for centuries to control people and the general populous is fearful at the moment, as few have had to discuss and understand, accept death.


----------



## bellenuit (8 February 2021)

It's nearly a year since this was a hot topic on this thread, but interesting new details have come to light, debunking the China was transparent myth.

Leaked audio shows WHO leaders secretly criticize China at start of Covid pandemic​








						Leaked audio shows WHO leaders secretly criticize China at start of Covid pandemic | Taiwan News | 2021-02-08 13:24:00
					

Top WHO leaders can be heard complaining about lack of data from China on human-to-human transmission | 2021-02-08 13:24:00




					www.taiwannews.com.tw


----------



## rederob (10 February 2021)

Possibly one of the most biased "questioners" I have listened to , using rumour as her foundation, is repeatedly dissatisfied by the honesty of a world expert on covid-19 outline " more likely" sources of the virus:
 

(footnote: "with respect" means *nobody actually believes you*)


----------



## noirua (12 February 2021)

"What's concerning about this is that the 1.1.7 variant that we have had circulating for some weeks and months is beginning to mutate again and get new mutations which could affect the way that we handle the virus in terms of immunity and effectiveness of vaccines."
11 February 2021


			https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-market-news/company--news/uk-officials-concerned-by-continued-mutations-in-covid-19-strains


----------



## The Triangle (13 February 2021)

How can Paul Kelly have 'full confidence' in hotel quarantine in Victoria when the AMA is screaming and yelling at every opportunity that it's not a good system?    

Put cameras on all floors in all hotels used for quarantine and live stream so we the people can judge what is happening without media and government collusion and spin.


----------



## rederob (13 February 2021)

The Triangle said:


> How can Paul Kelly have 'full confidence' in hotel quarantine in Victoria when the AMA is screaming and yelling at every opportunity that it's not a good system?
> 
> Put cameras on all floors in all hotels used for quarantine and live stream so we the people can judge what is happening without media and government collusion and spin.



Hotels are not hospitals.
Quarantine accommodation needs to be purpose built, isolated, and, in the case of respiratory disease, negative pressure.
Failing that, ensure every worker is protected to the nth degree, as it would be far cheaper that the series of lockdowns that occcur.







Medical professionals, especially epidemiologists, have been making these points for almost a year.
Alas, we still have a hodge podge of State by State arrangements with different rules and requirements that seem to be inflicted at the whim of Premiers, with various choruses of blame game brinkmanship being played by the day.


----------



## moXJO (13 February 2021)

rederob said:


> Hotels are not hospitals.
> Quarantine accommodation needs to be purpose built, isolated, and, in the case of respiratory disease, negative pressure.
> Failing that, ensure every worker is protected to the nth degree, as it would be far cheaper that the series of lockdowns that occcur.
> 
> ...



They are probably waiting on the vaccine to save em rather than doing anything substantial.


----------



## satanoperca (16 February 2021)

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30527-0/fulltext

Influenza vs Covid. 

From what I have taken from research, Covid sucks however, like all diseases one can greatly reduce the risk of long term damage or death by :
LOOKING AFTER ONESELF and not be obese, not exercising, and not getting sunlight (Vitamin D). We are protecting the stupid, while still allowing unhealthy products to be sold and not taxed heavily.

Not educating the masses of the requirement of sunlight on our bodies, another scare campaign (skin cancer), is not black or white topic.

Without sunlight, we expose our bodies to potential immune weakness (aka Vitamin D), to much sunlight and potential cancer. 

But gonuts trying to communicate a more consistent message without fear involved, requires work, commitment, and strength. Many things lacking in today's leaders and to often interfered with clickbait media.

Common sense is a diminishing asset in our society.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 February 2021)

What can we learn from the 1918 flu ?

Not much apparently.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/09/01/1918-flu-pandemic-end/


----------



## satanoperca (16 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> What can we learn from the 1918 flu ?
> 
> Not much apparently.
> 
> ...



It seems we are much better at alarm on viruses than back then, when they didn't even know about viruses, even though they exist.

Love the article "Doctors are concerned covid-19 can lead to lasting cardiovascular complications." Are concerned, how about unhealthy eating, lack of sunlight exposure, obesity (the USA and Australia are going for gold on that), exposure to man made chemicals in the home and our transport vehicles etc etc etc.

So in Vic we have had 50,000 tests done in 3 days, to find <5 cases, sounds like it must be the most contagious virus ever, lol.

We are willing to spend 100'sB $ on vaccines and economic support, but cannot do that to educate and help people live healthy lives. Our support for mental health across this country is abysmal, to say the least. 

But this virus is our whole focus of attention.

You are right SIR, we have learnt not a single thing.


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2021)

Dan seems to be one disaster after another. Nsw has done it better by a mile with the least amount of interruption during cases.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> Dan seems to be one disaster after another. Nsw has done it better by a mile with the least amount of interruption during cases.




Avalon,  Northern beaches, inner Sydney ? The whole of Greater Sydney was shut down for three weeks and other States shut off NSW.

This is not a political issue, if you want to make it one then start praising Qld and WA who have had virtually no cases.









						We mapped all of Sydney's COVID clusters — and they have one thing in common
					

NSW's current COVID-19 outbreak is likely almost at an end, if an analysis of State Government data is anything to go by, with clusters taking an average of three weeks to end.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Avalon,  Northern beaches, inner Sydney ? The whole of Greater Sydney was shut down for three weeks and other States shut off NSW.
> 
> This is not a political issue, if you want to make it one then start praising Qld and WA who have had virtually no cases.
> 
> ...



The rest of the state suffered did it?
And it was north shore shut off. Businesses ran as usual. And it didn't spread and was contained. 

Dan did a snap lockdown before valentines day which smashed business once again. He has managed to get 800 deaths and the most restrictive lockdowns next to China. 

Nothing to do with political its pretty plain to see.


----------



## satanoperca (17 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> This is not a political issue, if you want to make it one then start praising Qld and WA who have had virtually no cases.




You are correct, it is based on stupidity of Dan.

The figures do not match the statements by Dan, "Highly contagious, mutating virus". Well 70,000 test, 20,000 of close contacts with infected people to find less than <10 people. Numbers are numbers, they don't lie, words twist reality.

Dan got it wrong and the people of Victoria and business owners have had enough of CCP Dan.

Dan can not have it both ways, it is either highly contagious, so don't allow anyone in internationally unless they are returning Australias or open the international borders and let it rip.


----------



## basilio (20 February 2021)

Came across the Marsh family in Britain.  Very musical, very clever. A lot of fun. Great parodies of  what is happening under Covid.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2021)

In the USA, first the bad news, 500,000 dead of covid.

Now the good news, flu has virtually disappeared.









						'It's beautiful': Flu cases virtually disappear in US amid COVID-19 pandemic
					

The flu has virtually disappeared from the US, with reports coming in at far lower levels than anything seen in decades. Experts have several explanations for the lack of cases.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

Well a bit of an about face by the WHO, I guess the truth is starting to float to the top and people are starting to spray on the teflon?









						Explosive claims as report into Covid origins published
					

World Health Organisation chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus has delivered an unlikely attack on China after the report into the origins of Covid was published.




					au.news.yahoo.com


----------



## rederob (6 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well a bit of an about face by the WHO, I guess the truth is starting to float to the top and people are starting to spray on the teflon?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The politicians said we should follow the science.
But when the science is inconvenient, we cast doubt.
This is what the WHO Director General actually said.
Despite zero evidence of a lab leak the DG caved in to US pressure - as they rejoined the WHO in February - to make additional resources available because it was not considered a "robust" finding.
Science is never conclusive, but the main problem with the lab leak hypothesis is that there is no actual evidence the virus existed in lab animals, nor that it could have been "man-made", let alone that it escaped. 
So why does this idea keep getting traction?  Because Americans have been told there there really is evidence, as seen from some of the thousands of articles similar to those below:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbr...d-19-wuhan-lab-origin-theory/?sh=7a9421235aba
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...o-donald-trump-coronavirus-chinese-laboratory
https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/u...escaped-from-chinese-lab-20210117-p56up3.html
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/o...y-wuhan-shouldnt-dismissed-column/4765985001/
https://www.technologyreview.com/20...navirus-leak-wuhan-lab-scientists-conspiracy/
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...d-coronavirus-leak-wuhan-lab-2021-3?r=US&IR=T
What we have arrived at is a mirror of the climate change denial scenario.  Throw enough doubt and you hide the most likely reason for an event.


----------



## sptrawler (6 April 2021)

rederob said:


> The politicians said we should follow the science.
> But when the science is inconvenient, we cast doubt.
> This is what the WHO Director General actually said.
> Despite zero evidence of a lab leak the DG caved in to US pressure - as they rejoined the WHO in February - to make additional resources available because it was not considered a "robust" finding.
> ...



Or follow the media, bread trail.


----------



## rederob (6 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Or follow the media, bread trail.



You regularly deride the media.
Your apparent reliance on the media as a source of  both information and problems in society is compounded if you do not check what they rely on for their content.  The above was a case in point.

We currently have several more contagious and possibly more deadly viruses circulating the globe.  An example is from a patient in critical condition in Adelaide with one of these strains, yet we have had over a year to prevent these occurrences.  America is entering a new wave of covid infections due to variants, despite a massive vaccine effort and the capacity to also prevent such occurrences.

It seems somewhat misplaced to want to "blame China" for a virus that clearly can be contained with appropriate measures in place, but I guess having a scapegoat lets some world leaders off the hook for their incompetence.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 April 2021)

rederob said:


> It seems somewhat misplaced to want to "blame China" for a virus that clearly can be contained with appropriate measures in place, but I guess having a scapegoat lets some world leaders off the hook for their incompetence.




Countries that operate wet markets are asking for trouble and that spreads to the rest of us.

They should close down these places and regulate their food supply better.


----------



## rederob (6 April 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Countries that operate wet markets are asking for trouble and that spreads to the rest of us.
> 
> They should close down these places and regulate their food supply better.



Wet markets exist throughout Asia, Africa and Latin America and are more likely a problem for diseases other than covid.
Maybe we should kill off camels to prevent a recurrence of MERS, or kill off pigs to prevent a recurrence of swine flu? What about bird flu?

This article shows that flu "elimination" efforts are nugatory.  Viruses mutate.  Covid is a prime example.
Countries need to be better prepared for pandemics, full stop.


----------



## Humid (6 April 2021)

Origins of SARS-CoV-2 | Jamie Metzl
					

NOTE: This post was originally published on April 16, 2020 and has been updated regularly. Many people have reached out to me questioning the assertion I have been making since early 2020 that "the most likely starting point of the coronavirus crisis is an accidental leak from one of the Ch ...




					jamiemetzl.com
				




Watched this bloke on Joe Rogan was very compelling viewing


----------



## Humid (6 April 2021)

He did mention Wuhan is no backwater and compared it to Chicago


----------



## rederob (6 April 2021)

Humid said:


> Origins of SARS-CoV-2 | Jamie Metzl
> 
> 
> NOTE: This post was originally published on April 16, 2020 and has been updated regularly. Many people have reached out to me questioning the assertion I have been making since early 2020 that "the most likely starting point of the coronavirus crisis is an accidental leak from one of the Ch ...
> ...



I have read almost every conspiracy theory and pseudoscientific paper on the origins of covid and the only compelling case is that found by the WHO and presented last week.
I will pull apart some of Metzl's points. He said:

*"In the critical first weeks after the outbreak, Wuhan authorities worked aggressively to silence the whistleblowers and destroy evidence that could prove incriminating."*
Doctors were definitely not allowed to publicly communicate information about the virus, as at the time its nature was scientifically and medically uncertain.  This is also the case in most nations - there is a process! - and if Australia's treatment of whistleblowers is anything to go by, Wuhan's doctors got off lightly.
Metzl's claim that evidence was destroyed is totally baseless.  Who investigators actually met the first known case while in Wuhan.

_*"When Beijing authorities got involved a bit later, they likely faced a choice of implicating the Wuhan authorities, and, in effect, taking blame for what was quickly emerging as a major global problem, or turning into the curve and going all in for the coverup. I believe they likely chose the second option."*_
This is false.  When the nature of the virus could not be determined Wuhan authorities actually sent out and alert, and a few days later Beijing had officially notified the WHO.
Furthermore, the "global problem" did not emerge for another month.

_*"The Chinese government then massively lobbied the WHO to prevent the WHO from declaring COVID-19 as an international emergency and prevented WHO investigators from entering China for nearly a month."*_
This is patently false.  The WHO Emergency Committee has an international panel of 20 who decide on the facts and China's single voice was insignificant. 
Furthermore, WHO experts from its China and Western Pacific regional offices conducted a field visit to Wuhan in late January - ie within 3 weeks of the WHO being notified - and again in February 2020.

*"The Chinese authorities have gone to great lengths to destroy evidence and silence anyone in China who might be in a position to provide evidence on the origins of COVID-19."*
Actually, and unsurprisingly, Chinese academics have now researched and written hundreds of papers on the possible origins of covid. Most of the material available to researchers/investigators is written in Chinese and only a small amount of the hundreds of thousands of pages of base material has been translated.  This is yet another of Metzl's baseless claims.

Metzl may be a clever person, but he is incompetent on this issue.


----------



## Humid (6 April 2021)

If thats the best you can come up with from that then he is a lot more clever than you!
Try reading the whole article

The market is also less than 3 miles away from the Wuhan Centre for Disease Control, which: 

Was accused of being the source of the outbreak from a now-withdrawn academic paper from a notable Chinese scholar at the South China University of China
Once kept horseshoe bats, a known reservoir of SARS-CoV-1, within its labs
Once performed surgery on live animals within its labs
Had a researcher who quarantined on two separate occasions; once upon coming into contact with bat blood after being ’attacked’ and another time when he was urinated upon in a cave while wearing inadequate personal protection
Had previously done bat virus research funded by the US NIH (in a grant to EcoHealth Alliance)
possessed the virus that is the most closely related known virus in the world to the outbreak virus, bat virus RaTG13. This virus was isolated in 2013 and had its genome published on January 23, 2020. Seven more years of bat coronavirus collection followed the 2013 RaTG13 isolation. One component of the novel-bat-virus project at the Wuhan Institute of Virology involved infection of laboratory animals with bat viruses. Therefore, the possibility of a lab accident includes scenarios with direct transmission of a bat virus to a lab worker, scenarios with transmission of a bat virus to a laboratory animal and then to a lab worker, and scenarios involving improper disposal of laboratory animals or laboratory waste. (Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists)


----------



## rederob (6 April 2021)

Humid said:


> If thats the best you can come up with from that then he is a lot more clever than you!
> Try reading the whole article
> 
> The market is also less than 3 miles away from the Wuhan Centre for Disease Control, which:
> ...



Those matters - apart from bat research - are ancient history and have been debunked in the context of "origins" so many times it's now farcical you would bother re-presenting them.
Yes, Wuhan's labs lead the world in coronavirus research relating to bats.  However, the virus would need to have existed in the lab for it to have been accidentally released in the first place.  Furthermore, genetically speaking an intermediate animal is the most likely source.  Somehow we need to suspend rational belief and interpose *a series of most unlikely events* rather than genetic mutation as a cause for covid.


----------



## Humid (6 April 2021)

That farcical not worth investigating?
Bit like Porter not wanting an investigation much be catchy....



The int’l team saw its task as finding a zoonotic source of animal transition in the wild, not seeking the actual source of the pandemic. There’s a big difference. They set out to prove one hypothesis, not fairly examine all of them… The int’l team bent over backwards trying to validate the zoonotic jump and frozen food theses but didn’t lift a finger to seriously consider the lab leak hypothesis, I’m guessing out of fear their Chinese gov’t hosts would stop tossing them table scraps if offended… @Peterfoodsafety admitted that the joint mission remit did not include exploring a possible lab leak. So how could they possibly have determined a lab leak was “highly unlikely” w/o the most basic of examination and with no access to relevant resources? It doesn’t make sense… I’ve called the join study process non-credible because it’s examining some hypotheses but not others & using different evidentiary standards for different theories. Absurd to say there’s no evidence for lab leak when charging forward on zoonosis & cold chain w/o evidence… The hero of the day was clearly @DrTedros, who brilliantly protected the credibility of the @WHO… The tragedy is that over a yr after the pandemic began, with millions dead & billions disrupted, there’s no credible int’l pandemic origins investigation. Because our future safety depends on understanding how this tragedy began & our ensuing failures, that should terrify us.”
The same day, the governments of the United States of America, Australia, Canada, Czechia, Denmark, Estonia, Israel, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, the Republic of Korea, Slovenia, and the United Kingdom issued a very important joint statement asserting that they “support a transparent and independent analysis and evaluation, free from interference and undue influence, of the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic… [and] join in expressing shared concerns regarding the recent WHO-convened studyin China.” They also expressed their “shared concerns that the international expert study on the source of the SARS-CoV-2 virus was significantly delayed and lacked access to complete, original data and samples.”


----------



## rederob (6 April 2021)

Humid said:


> The int’l team saw its task as finding a zoonotic source of animal transition in the wild, not seeking the actual source of the pandemic.



You need to read the science and not the political hype and conspiracy theories.
We cannot rule out alien intervention, a CIA plot, or the tooth fairy, amongst other possibilities.
Science has no plausible reason to consider a man-made virus for the reasons outlined in the linked Report - see pages 111-120.  It cannot discount it, but with *zero evidence* it remains as suggested by the WHO team, as "*extremely unlikely*".


----------



## Humid (6 April 2021)

rederob said:


> I have read almost every conspiracy theory and pseudoscientific paper on the origins of covid and the only compelling case is that found by the WHO and presented last week.
> I will pull apart some of Metzl's points. He said:
> 
> *"In the critical first weeks after the outbreak, Wuhan authorities worked aggressively to silence the whistleblowers and destroy evidence that could prove incriminating."*
> ...



Like the science you are using here.....looks like straight from Beijing


----------



## Humid (6 April 2021)

rederob said:


> You need to read the science and not the political hype and conspiracy theories.
> We cannot rule out alien intervention, a CIA plot, or the tooth fairy, amongst other possibilities.
> Science has no plausible reason to consider a man-made virus for the reasons outlined in the linked Report - see pages 111-120.  It cannot discount it, but with *zero evidence* it remains as suggested by the WHO team, as "*extremely unlikely*".



Evidence yeah right 
Transparency is not one of their strong points is it.


----------



## rederob (6 April 2021)

Humid said:


> Evidence yeah right
> Transparency is not one of their strong points is it.



You need to deal with facts and not speculation.
There is nothing that you have presented that makes sense.  Unless you believe - without any basis whatsoever - that the "extremely unlikely" is a good candidate for investigation.


Humid said:


> Like the science you are using here.....looks like straight from Beijing



You have yet to offer a single bit of credible information to support any of your ideas.
Falling into the trap of "blame" is not a good look.


----------



## Humid (6 April 2021)

Is that extremely unlikely like a vaccine?


----------



## basilio (26 April 2021)

The catastrophe unfolding in India as COVID runs unchecked wont stay in India. 
This is on a scale beyond anything that started to happen in China in January 2020.















						Why India’s worsening Covid crisis is a dire problem for the world
					

Analysis: Urgent supplies are needed to stem the rampant spread of infections in country of 1.4bn




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (1 May 2021)

The breakdown of India as COVID goes unchecked.









						Arundhati Roy on India’s Covid catastrophe: ‘We are witnessing a crime against humanity’
					

The long read: It’s hard to convey the full depth and range of the trauma, the chaos and the indignity that people are being subjected to. Meanwhile, Modi and his allies are telling us not to complain




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (3 May 2021)

Now we have too much vaccine and not enough people lining up for vaccinations, you can't win, we need ScoMo to woo them into the vaccination centers.








						More vaccines than demand in NSW due to complacency, Deputy Premier warns
					

John Barilaro says people in the state are not ready to receive their COVID-19 vaccine. “Once you are eligible, please do your bit,” he says.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## Humid (3 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Now we have too much vaccine and not enough people lining up for vaccinations, you can't win, we need ScoMo to woo them into the vaccination centers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



jb hifi vouchers


----------



## Humid (3 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Now we have too much vaccine and not enough people lining up for vaccinations, you can't win, we need ScoMo to woo them into the vaccination centers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe you should read it first


----------



## sptrawler (3 May 2021)

Humid said:


> Maybe you should read it first



Most of the people I know over 50, are not rushing down for a vaccine. 

*From the article:*
“There’s a lag of couple weeks before we roll out the program and the reality is the public aren’t ready,” Mr Barilaro said.
“But once you are eligible, please do your bit. It is important that we get vaccinated ... we need to get 70 per cent of the population vaccinated to deal with this.”
Mr Barilaro said NSW was “suffering from our success”.

“*I think there are people who are concerned about what has played out in terms of blood clots and those that are vulnerable,” Mr Barilaro said.
“But the reality is, and I have heard it myself, [people say] there is no virus so why bother or why take the chance*.”


----------



## Humid (3 May 2021)

Over-50s flood vaccine booking hotlines as national rollout widens
					

Victorian health authorities have been flooded with people trying to make COVID vaccination bookings as millions more Australians became eligible on Monday.




					thenewdaily.com.au


----------



## Humid (3 May 2021)

Just a liberal government thing


----------



## sptrawler (3 May 2021)

Humid said:


> Over-50s flood vaccine booking hotlines as national rollout widens
> 
> 
> Victorian health authorities have been flooded with people trying to make COVID vaccination bookings as millions more Australians became eligible on Monday.
> ...



I know what you mean, that is a Labor government thing.😂

From the article:
By mid-morning on *Monday*, the state’s health hotline said *it had taken 5000* calls from Victorians eager to book an appointment at a mass vaccination centre.

It is estimated that up to *two million more Victorians became eligible* *for vaccines on Monday* with the national rollout broadening to include anyone aged over 50.


----------



## sptrawler (4 May 2021)

Looks like this is the next sector to be getting ready to put their hand out for taxpayer subsidies. 
Jeez car manufacturers changing over to electric,   power generators changing over to renewables,     now vaccine manufacturers changing over to mRNA manufacturing.
The media tends to become an advertising medium, for private sector platforms IMO.
As I said just my opinion.









						Doubt over local mRNA plans as major companies pull out of Australia
					

Vaccine experts say it would take at least $250 million plus the support of a major pharmaceutical company to set up mRNA manufacturing in Australia, cooling hopes of a local jab in the next year.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## Humid (4 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like this is the next sector to be getting ready to put their hand out for taxpayer subsidies.
> Jeez car manufacturers changing over to electric,   power generators changing over to renewables,     now vaccine manufacturers changing over to mRNA manufacturing.
> The media tends to become an advertising medium, for private sector platforms IMO.
> As I said just my opinion.
> ...



They need to figure out how to make them from gas


----------



## sptrawler (4 May 2021)

Humid said:


> They need to figure out how to make them from gas



It will be, if the the electricity that runs the vaccine manufacturing plant, is generated by gas. 😜


----------



## sptrawler (4 May 2021)

And as if on cue NSW to build a nRMA vaccine production facility, wow three articles on the same subject, within a couple of weeks, one saying the vaccine manufacturing is coming, the next saying it's going and lucky last it is coming.
They wonder why the public is confused? They will, they wont, they will.  
Is there any wonder the share market is volatile. 😂 








						Victoria announces funding for Pfizer style vaccine production
					

The Victorian government has announced $50m to fund mRNA style COVID-19 vaccines similar to Pfizer.




					www.smh.com.au
				













						Doubt over local mRNA plans as major companies pull out of Australia
					

Vaccine experts say it would take at least $250 million plus the support of a major pharmaceutical company to set up mRNA manufacturing in Australia, cooling hopes of a local jab in the next year.




					www.smh.com.au
				













						NSW’s plan to manufacture mRNA vaccines locally
					

The state government has convened a team of scientists to determine how the high-tech vaccines and a range of treatments can be made locally.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (5 May 2021)

Looks as though people are still concerned about the Astra Zeneca vaccine, maybe the Government should offer the Pfizer vaccine with and charge for it, then they could send the Astra Zeneca to somewhere that wants it.  









						Majority of Australians have concerns about vaccine rollout, according to new survey
					

A new study reveals vaccine hesitancy remaining stable after the change in advice regarding the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine but suggests some groups remain more hesitant than others.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Humid (5 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Looks as though people are still concerned about the Astra Zeneca vaccine, maybe the Government should offer the Pfizer vaccine with and charge for it, then they could send the Astra Zeneca to somewhere that wants it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tried to book through GP yesterday......4 weeks


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2021)

Government considering using Howard Springs exclusively for Australians returning from India
					

The government is considering using Howard Springs to only quarantine Indian returned travellers, as a way to expedite getting people out of the country when the travel ban ends.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Key points:​
Australia has a ban on anyone entering the country if they have been in India in the previous 14 days
The federal government is now considering using the Howard Springs facility exclusively for people returning from India 
There are about 9,000 Australians stranded in India, with 10 per cent of them considered vulnerable


----------



## sptrawler (6 May 2021)

If your getting the pfizer one, can i swap places with you? It's worth a carton.


----------



## Humid (6 May 2021)

Is Gladys a protected species?


----------



## pozindustrial (6 May 2021)

There is something wrong. A number of treatments have been proved to be effective, and even though the drugs have been freely available they are suddenly blocked by governments. These include hydroxychloroquine, zind and invermectin. Sauchi in USA says he cannot consider them without double blind, placebo controlled trials. That would take years to complete and it would mean giving some covid patients a placebo which could cost them their lives which is unconscionable. Anectdotal evidence during an emergency is acceptable, but medical bodies have said it cannot be used. This is wrong. It takes years of testing and a hundred million + dollars to do such trials, but frontline workers need to know now what they can do to protect themselves and their patients. Why? Why do our govt medical advisers actively block these treatments that have been proved to stop deaths and heal sooner? If they were widely distributed hospital beds would be drastically reduced freeing up treatment, there would be no need for lockdowns, no need for masks, no need for vaccines (they are gene therapies, not vaccines) no problem for our borders, no economic consequences.


----------



## macca (6 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> There is something wrong. A number of treatments have been proved to be effective, and even though the drugs have been freely available they are suddenly blocked by governments. These include hydroxychloroquine, zind and invermectin. Sauchi in USA says he cannot consider them without double blind, placebo controlled trials. That would take years to complete and it would mean giving some covid patients a placebo which could cost them their lives which is unconscionable. Anectdotal evidence during an emergency is acceptable, but medical bodies have said it cannot be used. This is wrong. It takes years of testing and a hundred million + dollars to do such trials, but frontline workers need to know now what they can do to protect themselves and their patients. Why? Why do our govt medical advisers actively block these treatments that have been proved to stop deaths and heal sooner? If they were widely distributed hospital beds would be drastically reduced freeing up treatment, there would be no need for lockdowns, no need for masks, no need for vaccines (they are gene therapies, not vaccines) no problem for our borders, no economic consequences.




I do not understand why they insist on lengthy trials for repurposed drugs that have been used for decades with safety but do not apply the same testing standards to a completely novel type of treatment.


----------



## pozindustrial (6 May 2021)

macca said:


> I do not understand why they insist on lengthy trials for repurposed drugs that have been used for decades with safety but do not apply the same testing standards to a completely novel type of treatment.



Exactly


----------



## Humid (6 May 2021)

The origin of COVID: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box at Wuhan? - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
					

If the case that SARS2 originated in a lab is so substantial, why isn’t this more widely known? As is now obvious, there are many people who have reason not to talk about it.




					thebulletin.org


----------



## sptrawler (7 May 2021)

Looks like the uptake in the U.S is slowing.








						Beer and donuts offered as incentive to get COVID jab
					






					www.9news.com.au
				












						New Jersey to give free beer to Covid vaccine recipients
					

New Jersey residents who get their first Covid vaccination in May will be eligible for a free beer at select breweries, Gov. Phil Murphy said Monday.




					www.cnbc.com
				












						Will Incentives Actually Boost COVID-19 Vaccination Rates?
					

States are offering free beer, savings bonds and more




					time.com


----------



## rederob (8 May 2021)

Humid said:


> The origin of COVID: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box at Wuhan? - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
> 
> 
> If the case that SARS2 originated in a lab is so substantial, why isn’t this more widely known? As is now obvious, there are many people who have reason not to talk about it.
> ...



While it is good to cover all the bases in science, contriving a most likely outcome where there is an absence of scientific evidence is as flawed as can be.  
The reason the WHO investigation team considered the lab leak hypothesis as *extremely unlikely* is because science has several more probable routes.  SARS Cov1 is a similar but more deadly virus and no scientists were ever suggesting it came from a lab.  20 years ago China was not the economic behemoth it is today and nutjobs like Pompeo were not mouthing off on a regular basis about the "evidence" they had, which was even less compelling than Trumps 2020 election victory.
The oft mooted "weaponising" hypothesis is somewhat farcical as covid19 not only has a much lower fatality rate , it most severely affects the elderly.  Maybe they developed it for _Dad's Army_?


----------



## sptrawler (8 May 2021)

I love the absolute undeviating trust that people have in their chosen beliefs, it really is a honourable trait, but it does limit ones horizons.
That goes for political, economical and personal beliefs, when one believes they know all the answers, they stop asking questions.


----------



## sptrawler (8 May 2021)

Interesting to see the amount of flack the government is getting, from stopping the influx of Australians from India wanting to return, I wonder how much more flack they would cop, if they had an outbreak of the Indian strain here.
Oh I forgot, that doesnt matter to the media.lol
Its a win win, they have a story either way.


----------



## IFocus (9 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting to see the amount of flack the government is getting, from stopping the influx of Australians from India wanting to return, I wonder how much more flack they would cop, if they had an outbreak of the Indian strain here.
> Oh I forgot, that doesnt matter to the media.lol
> Its a win win, they have a story either way.





The problem is they have been caught out bullshiting how good our quarantine setup is so they can avoid having to actually do some thing instead of issuing press spin. 

Thats before you get to fining and jailing Australian passport holders from returning home


----------



## sptrawler (9 May 2021)

IFocus said:


> The problem is they have been caught out bullshiting how good our quarantine setup is so they can avoid having to actually do some thing instead of issuing press spin.
> 
> Thats before you get to fining and jailing Australian passport holders from returning home



It sounds as though the international border control is going to stay in place for quite some time.


----------



## Humid (9 May 2021)

IFocus said:


> The problem is they have been caught out bullshiting how good our quarantine setup is so they can avoid having to actually do some thing instead of issuing press spin.
> 
> Thats before you get to fining and jailing Australian passport holders from returning home



Chasing the hardline headline and it blew up in their faces
Been back peddling ever since to the point where it was the media fault for printing the release stating the risk of fines and echoed by the inhouse liberal bugle sp....the man who claims not reading mainstream media lol


----------



## Belli (9 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> if they had an outbreak of the Indian strain here.




It isn't a matter of "if", it's when.


----------



## rederob (9 May 2021)

Belli said:


> It isn't a matter of "if", it's when.



From America with love:
*The two cases, a man in his 50s from Sydney’s eastern suburbs and his wife, are the first known locally acquired cases of the **Indian B.1.617 variant** of the virus in NSW.*​


----------



## sptrawler (9 May 2021)

Humid said:


> Chasing the hardline headline and it blew up in their faces
> Been back peddling ever since to the point where it was the media fault for printing the release stating the risk of fines and echoed by the inhouse liberal bugle sp....the man who claims not reading mainstream media lol



I've never said I don't read mainstream media, I said i don't watch mainstream news on t.v, if you are going to drop a bucket of $%^t at least get it right.


----------



## Humid (9 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I've never said I don't read mainstream media, I said i don't watch mainstream news on t.v, if you are going to drop a bucket of $%^t at least get it right.



Yeah I know a lot of people have dropped off digital TV but they are  pretty cheap these days.....Samsung are a good choice 
you have to press the red button but pm for more info more than happy to help a senior


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2021)

I wonder if Australia will follow suit and drops the AstraZeneca vaccine, in favour of the Pfizer one?








						EU not to renew AstraZeneca, J&J Covid-19 vaccine contracts on expiry
					

A spokesman for the EU Commission said it was keeping all options open to be prepared for the next stages of the pandemic, for 2022 and beyond




					www.business-standard.com
				



From the article:

 The European Union (EU) Commission has decided not to renew Covid-19 vaccine contracts next year with AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson (J&J), Italian daily La Stampa reported on Wednesday, citing a source from the Italian health ministry.“The European Commission, in agreement with the leaders of many (EU) countries, has decided that the contracts with the companies that produce (viral vector) vaccines that are valid for the current year will not be renewed at their expiry,” the newspaper reported.
It added that Brussels would rather focus on Covid-19 vaccines using messenger RNA (mRNA) technology, such as Pfizer's and Moderna’s. A spokesman for the EU Commission said it was keeping all options open to be prepared for the next stages of the pandemic, for 2022 and beyond. “We cannot, however, comment on contractual issues,” the spokesman added.


----------



## IFocus (10 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder if Australia will follow suit and drops the AstraZeneca vaccine, in favour of the Pfizer one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Given the inaction of the Federal government on many issues concerning quarantine its hard to see them changing from AZ  totally to Pfizer when there is production of AZ here in Oz not to mention supply issues with Pfizer.

Of course if there is enough vaccine hesitation with AZ then every chance they may be forced to.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2021)

It sounds as though this Indian strain of covid, is worrying the authorities.








						'GLOBAL CONCERN': Highly-infectious Covid variant prompts WHO warning
					

The mutant Covid variant believed to be fuelling India's pandemic crisis is now considered to be of 'global concern'.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:
A Covid variant that is believed to be fuelling India's pandemic crisis and one that continues to spread globally has been identified by the World Health Organisation as a variant of global concern.

Maria Van Kerkhove, WHO technical lead on Covid-19, said there was evidence now to suggest the strain, which has pushed India's daily Covid-19 infections beyond 400,000 in recent days, is more infectious than others.

"There is some available information to suggest increased transmissibility," she told a briefing on Monday (local time).

"We are classifying this as a variant of concern at a global level."

The B.1.617 variant is the fourth variant to be designated as being of global concern and requiring heightened tracking and analysis. The others are those first detected in Britain, South Africa and Brazil.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2021)

Well it would appear that Morrison was right calling for an immediate investigation into the source of the virus, the independent review committee appears to agree.








						‘There is no time to waste’: WHO needs new powers to control future outbreaks, report says
					

The report also urges world governments to allow WHO infection experts immediate access to inspect outbreaks anywhere in the world in an effort to prevent future cover-ups and delays.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Governments must urgently give the World Health Organisation the power to announce new disease outbreaks without first getting permission from the host country if future pandemics are to be avoided, according to an expert panel that has spent a year investigating the coronavirus outbreak.

Even as the world continues to grapple with COVID-19, it needs to set up a stronger system to prevent the next global pandemic “because a novel pathogen can emerge at any time”.
The report of the Independent Panel for Pandemic Preparedness and Response also urges world governments to allow WHO infection experts immediate access to inspect outbreaks anywhere in the world in an effort to prevent future cover-ups and delays.

“Another zoonotic disease emerging is inevitable. The question is whether we have the tools in place for aggressive containment,” Ms Clark told _The Sydney Morning Herald _and_ The Age._ The international panel of 13 eminent clinicians and former leaders calls on world leaders to meet at the United Nations General Assembly in September to start the process.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2021)

Unusual for the SMH to give ScoMo a wrap.








						Scott Morrison vindicated for wanting health inspectors to have more power
					

An independent global expert panel says that if the world wants to prevent another pandemic, it needs international health inspectors with powers like those of international weapons inspectors. If that sounds familiar, it’s because Scott Morrison made the same recommendation over a year ago.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
An independent global expert panel says that if the world wants to prevent another pandemic, it needs international health inspectors with powers like those of international weapons inspectors.

If that sounds familiar, it’s because Scott Morrison made the same recommendation over a year ago. Beijing damned him for it as an impertinent interference in its internal affairs, so it’s too hot for the independent panel to use the same language.

The panel’s report calls on all world leaders urgently to join to create a powerful new system to prevent future pandemics. So it needs all the great powers on board and that includes China.

“Do we want to learn the lessons of the pandemic, or shrug our shoulders and say, ‘Oh well,’ and blunder on?” poses the co-chair of the panel, former New Zealand prime minister Helen Clark.

“All world leaders on earth have been blindsided for a year. If we don’t learn from our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them.”
And a critical lesson is that the initial delays and cover-ups of COVID-19 must not be repeated, according to the new report by theIndependent Panel for Pandemic Preparedness and Response, set up by the world health ministers a year ago.


----------



## pozindustrial (13 May 2021)

Given the complete mess that WHO has made of things I think it needs to be fed to the guillotine. It appears to me to be a puppet of whoever funds it the most or whichever lobby group has the most sway over it.


----------



## rederob (13 May 2021)

Without evidence @pozindustrial states "Given the complete mess that WHO has made of things I think it needs to be fed to the guillotine. It appears to me to be a puppet of whoever funds it the most or whichever lobby group has the most sway over it."

Had he taken the time to read the *Report *he would have noted points like this:

Years of warnings of an inevitable pandemic threat were not acted on
Clinicians in Wuhan, China, were quick to spot unusual clusters of pneumonia of unknown origin in late December 2019. The formal notification and emergency declaration procedures under the International Health Regulations, however, were much too slow
 For the month following the declaration of the Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC) on 30 January 2020, too many countries took a ‘wait and see’ approach rather than enacting an aggressive containment strategy 
Coordinated, global leadership was absent. Global tensions undermined multilateral institutions and cooperative action.
Preparedness was under-funded and response funding was too slow. Dedicated financing at the scale required was not available to supply medical equipment, kick-start the search for diagnostics and therapeutics, or ensure vaccines would be available to all.
 International financing was too little, too late
The Report makes clear that the WHO lacks the power, mechanisms and funding to effectively deal with viruses like SARS-CoV-2.  By the same token those nations which followed the science and health advice, and developed a coordinated pandemic response strategy, fared comparatively well in containing or eliminating spread.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 May 2021)

Increasing evidence that covid originated in a lab.









						Gottlieb says there's growing circumstantial evidence that Covid may have originated in a lab
					

With other coronaviruses, SARS and MERS, researchers were able to identify the animal those diseases emerged from at this point in those outbreaks.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## rederob (25 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Increasing evidence that covid originated in a lab.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is presently no more evidence about this than there was at any time in the past 18 months.
*The experts have clearly said this is "extremely unlikely".*
Your idea of evidence is a dream!


----------



## SirRumpole (25 May 2021)

rederob said:


> There is presently no more evidence about this than there was at any time in the past 18 months.
> *The experts have clearly said this is "extremely unlikely".*
> Your idea of evidence is a dream!




Don't kill the messenger rob, an eminent virologist was quoted.

If you have more qualification than him in this area, please let us know.


----------



## Belli (25 May 2021)

Rather than citing a media report as being evidence, it may be better to refer to it as an opinion and leave it as that.

Same thing happens with media here when the headlines go "Expert says..." but the view doesn't coincide with the investigations and research of the vast majority of others in the field.


----------



## rederob (25 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Don't kill the messenger rob, an eminent virologist was quoted.
> 
> If you have more qualification than him in this area, please let us know.



Sorry @SirRumpole, but when you use the word "*evidence*" and there is none, it really does not matter who the person is.
Does it?


----------



## SirRumpole (25 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Sorry @SirRumpole, but when you use the word "*evidence*" and there is none, it really does not matter who the person is.
> Does it?



Are you interested in "beyond reasonable doubt" or "reasonable suspicion" standard of evidence ?


----------



## rederob (25 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Are you interested in "beyond reasonable doubt" or "reasonable suspicion" standard of evidence ?



This is about (medical) science.
Is there evidence of a lab leak?
No.
Has the amount of evidence changed?
No - there was never any evidence.
Science is about what is most probable.
That's why a panel of world experts came to a conclusion that the lab leak theory was *extremely unlikely*.

The logic of theistic belief *starts *with their being a god.
There is no evidence that a god exists.
Many people believe in god/s.

The logic of a lab leak hypothesis starts with SARS-CoV-2 existing in a Wuhan lab.
Despite there being no evidence, it further surmises there was a subsequent leak, despite their being no evidence.
Many people believe what they choose to.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Many people believe what they choose to.




They do indeed.


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

Sounds as though getting rid of Trump, hasn't got rid of the concerns about the source of the covid 19 virus.








						Covid: Biden orders investigation into virus origin as lab leak theory debated
					

US intelligence is divided on whether the virus came from a Chinese lab or animal-to-human contact.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## basilio (27 May 2021)

*   Morrison Offers Condolences To Victorians Going Into Lockdown: 
       ‘I Know What It’s Like To Do Absolutely xucking Nothing’      * 








Scott Morrison has offered words of support to those in Melbourne facing at least a week in lockdown, saying he knows what it’s like to do absolutely nothing at all.

In a Facebook video this afternoon, Mr Morrison said he stood with all Melburnians.                                                                                

“To those of you not able to turn up to work, I know what it’s like. I haven’t turned up to work since 2008.

“To those of you who can’t tick off that to-do list this weekend anymore, I’m with you. Although I find it’s generally easier to not have a to-do list in the first place and then you won’t be held accountable when things don’t get done.

“To those of you who have no idea what you’re going to do, neither to I. And that’s got nothing to do with lockdown”.

https://www.theshovel.com.au/2021/0...bsolutely_fucking_nothing&utm_term=2021-05-27


----------



## basilio (27 May 2021)

India orders removal of content referring to ‘Indian variant’​Government says ‘false’ coronavirus claim is circulating on social media and should be taken down

Sensitive xucking souls. It's this sort of aggressive denial insanity that has powered the explosion of the lastest* Indian* COVID variant across the sub continent and around the world.

There was no disrespect in scientists identifying the latest  COVID strains from where they have appeared to originated. We have Britain, Brazil and South Africa strains. Meanwhile India burns.









						India orders removal of content referring to ‘Indian variant’
					

Government says ‘false’ coronavirus claim is circulating on social media and should be taken down




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (27 May 2021)

basilio said:


> India orders removal of content referring to ‘Indian variant’​Government says ‘false’ coronavirus claim is circulating on social media and should be taken down
> 
> Sensitive xucking souls. It's this sort of aggressive denial insanity that has powered the explosion of the lastest* Indian* COVID variant across the sub continent and around the world.
> 
> ...



Yes indeed, @basilio .

Unfortunately most spread of Coronavirus has occurred under right wing governments with varying levels of "Democratic governance".

It appears that autocracies such as China seem better equipped to control pandemics. 

India is a shocker at present. Religion !

gg


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Yes indeed, @basilio .
> 
> Unfortunately most spread of Coronavirus has occurred under right wing governments with varying levels of "Democratic governance".
> 
> ...



Absolutely GG, we would be much better served under an authoritarian government, led by chairman Scott. Or at the least a Republic led by President Scott.👍 
Apparently the South Africa, want their stain , sorry strain removed, as do the U.K.🤣


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (27 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely GG, we would be much better served under an authoritarian government, led by chairman Scott. Or at the least a Republic led by President Scott.👍
> Apparently the South Africa, want their stain , sorry strain removed, as do the U.K.🤣



I must say I would put the Dalai Modi and the Dalai Morrison in to the same boat. Spin and onions. 

It appears to me that it is by much luck and distance that we have avoided the full ravages of the pandemic. The Hotel Quarantine is a ticking time bomb which is trigger set to go off as we speak. 

gg


----------



## pozindustrial (27 May 2021)

Has anyone considered the time-bomb of vaccinated individuals thinking they are bullet-proof by travelling and bringing back the virus under the impression that they cannot get infected?
They can and do get infected, and they can spread it while infected. The shot only guarantees that a percentage of people will have less symptoms. This article glosses over the fact that vaccinated persons still get Covid and it says that nobody knows the level of infection that is needed to transmit it.








						Do Covid-19 vaccines prevent infection and transmission? - ScienceBlog.com
					

Studies in widely vaccinated populations, such as those in Israel and the UK, have confirmed in vivo the protection promised by different vaccines. The




					scienceblog.com
				



The media in general still say you are protected from Covid if you are vaccinated. This is a lie. So what happens when a planeful of passport holders brings back and spreads Covid?


----------



## bellenuit (27 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> The media in general still say you are protected from Covid if you are vaccinated. This is a lie.





If that is the case why are the number of new cases (those infected) dropping in line with the roll out of vaccinations in the UK and the US?


----------



## pozindustrial (27 May 2021)

Here is a Forbes article claiming that 4 out of 5 of the most vaccinated countries have had surges in infection, not reductions.








						Covid Surges In 4 Of 5 Most Vaccinated Countries—Here’s Why The U.S. Should Worry
					

Countries with much higher vaccination rates than the U.S. are experiencing some of the worst coronavirus spikes.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## bellenuit (27 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Here is a Forbes article claiming that 4 out of 5 of the most vaccinated countries have had surges in infection, not reductions.




The article explains why that is the case. Reliance in many cases on the less effective Chinese vaccine and a premature relaxation of restrictions. Did you not understand that?

I again ask you: why are the number of new cases (those infected) dropping in line with the roll out of vaccinations in the UK and the US?


----------



## bellenuit (27 May 2021)

Immunity to the Coronavirus May Persist for Years, Scientists Find​








						Immunity to the Coronavirus May Persist for Years, Scientists Find
					

Important immune cells survive in the bone marrow of people who were infected with the virus or were inoculated against it, new research suggests.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## pozindustrial (27 May 2021)

> I again ask you: why are the number of new cases (those infected) dropping in line with the roll out of vaccinations in the UK and the US?



Where is your proof?


----------



## bellenuit (27 May 2021)

COVID-19 infections are exceedingly rare after full vaccination: CDC​








						COVID-19 infections are exceedingly rare after full vaccination: CDC
					

Only 0.01% of people tested positive for the coronavirus after getting fully vaccinated.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## bellenuit (27 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Where is your proof?



From Worldometers


----------



## pozindustrial (27 May 2021)

Well, according to those charts we needn't bother doing anything else. Problem solved. What is all the fuss about?


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

basilio said:


> Why 10's of thousands of young people marched across Australia today.
> 
> View attachment 124643






Garpal Gumnut said:


> I must say I would put the Dalai Modi and the Dalai Morrison in to the same boat. Spin and onions.
> 
> It appears to me that it is by much luck and distance that we have avoided the full ravages of the pandemic. The Hotel Quarantine is a ticking time bomb which is trigger set to go off as we speak.
> 
> gg



Apparently the spin and onions, don't work in a mask.
I just hope eventually, the media put public interest, above bottom line.


----------



## bellenuit (27 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Well, according to those charts we needn't bother doing anything else. Problem solved. What is all the fuss about




A ridiculous conclusion. But in any case it blows your statement that the vaccines do not stop infection right out of the water.


----------



## pozindustrial (27 May 2021)

I do not think you can make that definite statement, it could be that Dec was a peak anyway. My statement that the vaccine does not stop people becoming infected is still true, that is just a fact and plenty of stats in USA about how many vaccinated have tested positive since like the article from Forbes clearly showed.


----------



## cynic (27 May 2021)

bellenuit said:


> A ridiculous conclusion. But in any case it blows your statement that the vaccines do not stop infection right out of the water.



Did you take seasonal factors into consideration when formulating your conclusion?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (27 May 2021)

Well I'm no expert but I've had the vaccine and if I'm advised to wear a mask, isolate or quarantine, I will do so. 

No point in investing in the game of life if you lose your entire portfolio and cash because of a hunch or advice of the crowd. 

gg


----------



## IFocus (27 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely GG, we would be much better served under an authoritarian government, led by chairman Scott. Or at the least a Republic led by President Scott.👍
> Apparently the South Africa, want their stain , sorry strain removed, as do the U.K.🤣





Actually Morrison has done SFA (excuse the French) its the states that have controlled the COVID outbreaks and done all the heavy lifting including vaccinations Morrison has continued to oversee problem quarantine


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

IFocus said:


> Actually Morrison has done SFA (excuse the French) its the states that have controlled the COVID outbreaks and done all the heavy lifting including vaccinations Morrison has continued to oversee problem quarantine



AS they should. 😅
Mate I know you have an issue with the coalition, I actually understand that coming from a trade background, but I don't think that is going to swing the election.
Most normal run of the mill workers aren't muppets, they know what is State and Federal responsibility, the only ones that don't are the ones that are dealing with centrelink and  they blame everything on the federal government.
Barnett was bagged for building the hospitals, McGowan is bagged for not enough nurses, normal people do understand that health and hospitals is a State issue.
To try and appeal to them, that somehow the Federal government has a say in nursing, just makes them think the argument is nonsense.
Also as you, my other half did a diploma in nursing at Freo Hospital in the 70's, did a degree in nursing in the 90's and did a post grad degree in business after that. 
So I'm not flying blind.😅
McGowan has done a great job, so has most of the States, so has the Feds. Really even Labor Party die hards are starting to say they are sleep walking into a disaster.
Constantly bagging Morrison, when Australia is actually doing really well, just wont get traction.
Why isn't Albo just concentrating on the post covid Australia, the future where we can go, rather than sniping an nipping at the heals of what most see as a pretty successful dealing with a bad pandemic?


----------



## bellenuit (27 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> My statement that the vaccine does not stop people becoming infected is still true, that is just a fact and plenty of stats in USA about how many vaccinated have tested positive since like the article from Forbes clearly showed.




Yes, we know it is not 100% effective, so there are stats that show there is an extremely low infection rate for those that have taken the vaccine. I presume you haven't bothered to read the article I posted about  4 or 5 posts above:
COVID-19 infections are exceedingly rare after full vaccination: CDC​








						COVID-19 infections are exceedingly rare after full vaccination: CDC
					

Only 0.01% of people tested positive for the coronavirus after getting fully vaccinated.




					abcnews.go.com
				




These are based on actual real life figures, not stats promoted by Russian bloggers.


----------



## bellenuit (27 May 2021)

cynic said:


> Did you take seasonal factors into consideration when formulating your conclusion?




We have already results that discount seasonal factors. One such study is an Israeli study I posted a while back now, a few months after the vaccine had been rolled out in Israel in two stages, firstly to the elderly and a month or so later to younger people, showing that infections in the elderly started to decline a few weeks after their vaccination commenced, while infections of the younger people continued to rise. It wasn't until a few weeks after the younger people started to be vaccinated that their infection rate began to fall. There are other studies.

We know a warming climate does help prevent the spread to a small degree, but observations from the US show that in states with  a similar climate, the reduction in infections is correlated more with states that are actively encouraging vaccination and less so with states that are ambivalent about it.

*Do you have any studies that show the drop off in infections to the extent observed is purely or predominantly due to seasonal factors?*


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2021)

IFocus said:


> Actually Morrison has done SFA (excuse the French) its the states that have controlled the COVID outbreaks and done all the heavy lifting including vaccinations Morrison has continued to oversee problem quarantine



Taking it one step further, you know as I do that your electrical license isn't recognised Australia wide, the States control the electrical licensing, same as they control the health i.e doctors, nurses, hospitals etc.
So as when Morrison told the States to open their borders, they told him to sod off, it is a bit rich to lay all the failings and non of the accolades at his feet.
I was leaning toward Albo, because I thought it is time for change and I did vote McGowan, but the more I see the ramping the more it increases my trepidation and I don't think I will be alone. 
Look at it logically:
Australians are reluctant to get vaccine, because they feel safe here.
Moderna want to build mRNA production plant here, Morrison Gov has earmarked $1b to support it.
Morrison Gov instantly shutdown repatriations from India, now Victoria is crapping itself  because Indian strain has an outbreak, which causes 7 day lockdown.
Meanwhile you are there with the tambourine saying Morrison has done SFA, well I hope Albo has a better plan, because as I said an election could be as early as October.
What are Labor offering?
So I guess the question is who are you appealing to? or is it like some in the Labor ranks are saying, you are just sounding like a bunch of whingers?
Labor can't win by just whining.


----------



## cynic (28 May 2021)

bellenuit said:


> We have already results that discount seasonal factors. One such study is an Israeli study I posted a while back now, a few months after the vaccine had been rolled out in Israel in two stages, firstly to the elderly and a month or so later to younger people, showing that infections in the elderly started to decline a few weeks after their vaccination commenced, while infections of the younger people continued to rise. It wasn't until a few weeks after the younger people started to be vaccinated that their infection rate began to fall. There are other studies.
> 
> We know a warming climate does help prevent the spread to a small degree, but observations from the US show that in states with  a similar climate, the reduction in infections is correlated more with states that are actively encouraging vaccination and less so with states that are ambivalent about it.
> 
> *Do you have any studies that show the drop off in infections to the extent observed is purely or predominantly due to seasonal factors?*



Let's just say that I have been making my own observations, and that I generally find that it pays to take "studies" on politically contentious issues, "with a grain of salt".


----------



## pozindustrial (28 May 2021)

> Yes, we know it is not 100% effective, so there are stats that show there is an extremely low infection rate for those that have taken the vaccine. I presume you haven't bothered to read the article I posted about 4 or 5 posts above:



In your article post it says:


> The CDC report notes that this is certainly an underestimate of breakthrough infections because all reporting was voluntary and many asymptomatic cases may never have been tested. Also, it's not clear from the study if breakthrough infections were more likely with new, concerning variants.



So I say again that vaccinated people can spread the virus and this will be a possible problem once international travel is restarted because like you, they think they are immune. That opens the possibility that many will disregard protections and spread the virus from other areas.


----------



## rederob (28 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Most normal run of the mill workers aren't muppets, they know what is State and Federal responsibility, the only ones that don't are the ones that are dealing with centrelink and  they blame everything on the federal government.



Quarantine is a constitutionally clear *federal *responsibility.
Morrison's mob has been missing in action on this point most of the time and still don't acknowledge it!
They fluffed it big time from the outset when a shipload of passengers disembarked in Sydney last year and spread covid far and wide.  
They fluffed it by not living up to their responsibility in aged care, and to this day have been a walking disaster: vaccinations of aged care workers remains inadequate while poor planning has left thousand in aged care facilities without a jab.  Absolutely shameful!


sptrawler said:


> To try and appeal to them, that somehow the Federal government has a say in nursing, just makes them think the argument is nonsense.



Again, Morrison's mob was incompetent from the outset in 2020 when they failed to plan properly for *any *pandemic and we did not have enough PPE for hospital workers, medicos, etc..  That's aside from their mishandling of aged care. 


sptrawler said:


> McGowan has done a great job, so has most of the States, *so has the Feds*.



Really?
Go back over a year and work out what they said or did that was so great.
Apart from using Christmas Island to quarantine Wuhan departures to Australia, telehealth, and adding to Jobseeker payments so they were livable,  their efforts have been pathetic.
We still have tens of thousands of Australians stranded overseas despite Morrison suggesting he would to bring them back by last Christmas.
What about the Covid Safe app that was supposed to help the nation open up?  An unmitigated failure.  Across the ditch they worked out that putting a QR helped, but our States have had to take on that role as well!
But here's the clincher on federal ineptitude: look at their last two budget allocations for quarantine expenditure and see if you can find any commitment to stopping covid where it really counts, ie. before international arrivals can be safely released.  It's not rocket surgery to realise that we only have outbreaks through inadequate quarantine arrangements and nothing else.  And these have led to various levels of lockdowns and border closures that have severely affected our national - let alone State - economy.  Little wonder many politicians are now putting the blowtorch on the feds for not upping their game and acting on their Constitution responsibility.


sptrawler said:


> Constantly bagging Morrison, when Australia is actually doing really well, just wont get traction.



It won't if people let Morrison get away with it!  Only months earlier he again showed his ineptitude in mishandling catastrophic bushfire situations.


sptrawler said:


> Why isn't Albo just concentrating on the post covid Australia, the future where we can go, rather than sniping an nipping at the heals of what most see as a pretty successful dealing with a bad pandemic?



Maybe because he wants people like you to understand how much better off we could be if Morrison was able to do what he was supposed to and get things right along the way!  Victorians should *not* again be suffering because Morrison is a failure!


sptrawler said:


> So as when Morrison told the States to open their borders, they told him to sod off, it is a bit rich to lay all the failings and non of the accolades at his feet.



Morrison has been wishy washy on borders and *unable *to get the States to agree on a set of standards that could be applied so that we, as Australians, could travel the nation without getting stuck somewhere or having to fork out for 2 weeks hotel quarantine and losing a fortnight's pay!
What about if you have been vaccinated and travel?  It's another area where Morrison's incompetence (miserably slow rollout after failure to properly consult with States) has left him at odds with the States despite it conceptually being a good idea.  


sptrawler said:


> Australians are reluctant to get vaccine, because they feel safe here.



I was told I could only be offered AZ, so was waiting for a better deal.  That might happen next week as a nearby hospital has Pfizer and yesterday had excess because of reluctance.  I cannot see the point in mass producing AZ when there are much safer options for Australians.  The maths on AZ blood clotting is around 1:100K which I know is low, but given Pfizer and Moderna are so much safer, it's a chance we need not take.  Moreover, we were promised this would not be the case and that's why our rollout was not hurried.


sptrawler said:


> Labor can't win by just whining.



Let's wait for their policies.
In the meantime Albo is doing what Oppositions do, holding Morrison to account for his ineptitude.


----------



## macca (28 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> In your article post it says:
> 
> So I say again that vaccinated people can spread the virus and this will be a possible problem once international travel is restarted because like you, they think they are immune. That opens the possibility that many will disregard protections and spread the virus from other areas.



This is my main concern, it is been repeatedly stated throughout the world that the vaccine does not stop you from getting Covid nor does it stop you from being infectious.

The only person who gets any protection is the vaccinated person who "should" not get a serious case of Covid

Three Doctors of Indian descent who were full vaccinated thought it was safe to go back to India to help, they got Covid and died while there. (poor blokes)

I am very fortunate to live in an area that has been Covid free for over 12 months but after I visit the city I do my Covid clean up when I get home


----------



## rederob (28 May 2021)

macca said:


> The only person who gets any protection is the vaccinated person who "should" not get a serious case of Covid



Not true.  The viral load of vaccinated people is reduced so infectiveness is reduced.  
Apart from that, people not vaccinated are protected as the vaccinated "herd" inceases in number.


macca said:


> Three Doctors of Indian descent who were full vaccinated thought it was safe to go back to India to help, they got Covid and died while there. (poor blokes)



This most likely resulted from high exposure to infected people and the viral load being too great for their antibody response to counter.  Or their antibody response may not have been fully developed prior to exposure.


macca said:


> I am very fortunate to live in an area that has been Covid free for over 12 months but after I visit the city I do my Covid clean up when I get home



Almost the same here, but for months now I am the only person on a bus or in a waiting area wearing a mask.  It costs nothing and I also have not have had a runny nose in the past year so saved a lot on the otherwise annual purchase of cold and flu tablets!


----------



## basilio (28 May 2021)

There is going to be a ton of economic pain in Victoria with the 7 day shut down (God help us if it has to continue..)
Business is already demanding support to keep them viable.
I can readily sympathise with a myriad small  retail businesses that have had to shut and are still trying to pay staff.

However I wonder about the big companies that  did exceptionally well from the previous COVID economic support ? Will they continue to demand government funding despite banking some exceptional profits and bonuses last year as a result of that support ?


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Quarantine is a constitutionally clear *federal *responsibility.
> Morrison's mob has been missing in action on this point most of the time and still don't acknowledge it!
> They fluffed it big time from the outset when a shipload of passengers disembarked in Sydney last year and spread covid far and wide.
> They fluffed it by not living up to their responsibility in aged care, and to this day have been a walking disaster: vaccinations of aged care workers remains inadequate while poor planning has left thousand in aged care facilities without a jab.  Absolutely shameful!
> ...



I see you are still leading the sleepwalkers cheer squad Rob? 🤣 Even Albo disagrees with you.








						‘I worry we are sleepwalking off a cliff’: Labor MP’s dire warning to Albanese
					

A Labor frontbencher has warned Anthony Albanese the party faces losing the next election and that the opposition isn’t cutting through.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Instead,* the Labor leader is said to have told Ms Swanson that he agreed the Coalition was disciplined and on message *and the ALP needed to be too – rather than talking about its internal issues.


----------



## bellenuit (28 May 2021)

macca said:


> This is my main concern, it is been repeatedly stated throughout the world that the vaccine does not stop you from getting Covid




It is *not* repeatedly stated throughout the world that the vaccine does not stop you from getting Covid. It is acknowledged that some vaccinated people will get Covid, but the number is minuscule. I have already twice posted above the CDC study that shows the number of infections post vaccine is extremely negligible, but not zero. Are you saying that the CDC are lying? We have always known that the effectiveness of the vaccines are not 100%.

We have also the statistical evidence that I posted showing the decline in the rate of infections in the USA and UK since vaccination was started. Are you disputing the predominate trend shown by those figures, notwithstanding that statistics on such a scale will always have some errors.? Some statistical errors or some misclassifications are inevitable, but not to the extent that it would distort the obvious strong trend that shows a deep drop in infections following vaccination.


----------



## bellenuit (28 May 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> In your article post it says:
> 
> So I say again that vaccinated people can spread the virus and this will be a possible problem once international travel is restarted because like you, they think they are immune. That opens the possibility that many will disregard protections and spread the virus from other areas.




Where did I say that vaccinated people are immune from the virus? You seem to have a huge difficulty distinguishing between some vaccinated people may get the virus (acknowledge by everyone involved), no vaccinated people will get the virus (a false straw argument the anti-vaxxers claim the pro vaccination lobby make, as you just did now) and no vaccinated people will get any protection (overwhelming proven false).

Yes some vaccinated people will get the virus and that is why we can expect to see everyone being encouraged to use the same precautions as before until at least herd immunity is reached, with some mitigation to those precautions as we approach that goal. But in addition to the precautions that were promoted prior to availability of the vaccines, the one predominant precaution every health official is now promoting is to GET VACCINATED.


----------



## IFocus (28 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I see you are still leading the sleepwalkers cheer squad Rob? 🤣 Even Albo disagrees with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





No point talking about Labor here, the LNP are running the COVID response currently a person got infected in SA from hotel quarantine (note state Liberal not that it matters however deafening silence from Federal government).

As a result causes a Melbourne lock down (Vic state Labor told by Hunt finances are all your problem)


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

IFocus said:


> No point talking about Labor here, the LNP are running the COVID response currently a person got infected in SA from hotel quarantine (note state Liberal not that it matters however deafening silence from Federal government).
> 
> As a result causes a Melbourne lock down (Vic state Labor told by Hunt finances are all your problem)



I was actually trying to make rederob aware of the lack of traction bagging Morrison is getting, Labor need to get the message out there, of what they are offering.
That is why I mentioned the sleepwalking over a cliff, it wasn't my quote, it was a labor federal member.
I personally think it is time Labor replaced the Libs federally, the economy needs a shot in the arm and it really isn't in the DNA of the conservatives to do it.
But for that to happen, Labor have to present a vision and a viable alternative, just bagging Morrison isn't going to cut it IMO.
As has been proven already in State elections, the public is very happy with the sitting incumbents handling of the virus, so it is very likely the Federal election will follow suit.
But hey i'm prepared to take criticism, it hasn't worried me in the past. 😅
I just say it as I see it, I voted for McGowan in the State election, because he IMO is doing a great job, I will vote for whoever I think is offering the best vision in the Federal election.
ATM Labor aren't actually showing anything, so I will wait and see, but generally Australia seems to be travelling o.k compared to many other countries.
So Labor has the job to do, I'm hoping they start and build some momentum, a lacklustre opposition makes it easy for a lacklustre government IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

Seems like an outbreak and another dose of lockdown, has improved the vaccine rollout, Victoria the first state to give 40,000 vaccines in a day. 😅 





__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au


----------



## rederob (29 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I was actually trying to make rederob aware of the lack of traction bagging Morrison is getting, Labor need to get the message out there, of what they are offering.
> That is why I mentioned the sleepwalking over a cliff, it wasn't my quote, it was a labor federal member.
> I personally think it is time Labor replaced the Libs federally, the economy needs a shot in the arm and it really isn't in the DNA of the conservatives to do it.
> But for that to happen, Labor have to present a vision and a viable alternative, just bagging Morrison isn't going to cut it IMO.
> ...



Your linked article was about the outcome of a NSW byelection.
It had nothing to to with the points I raised concerning Morrison's handlingof covid, and which you have no response to.
You have a habit of blaming the media for everything except when you want to use it for your gain.
If Australia is in a good position regarding covid it is because of the efforts of the States.  Each State election since covid's outbreak has confirmed this - none better than WA's.
The federal government's ineptitude was best shown in their recent budget where they proved they had no idea what to do about preventing covid at our nation's borders by alocating SFA to dedicated quarantine centres.
The fact that policy vacuums like Trump and Morrison can get elected just shows that electors are not discerning until things get tough and they work out who was responsible.  Morrison pretends his governement is not responsible for what has happened every single time things have gone wrong despite the writing being very clear.  He is a sad excuse for a national leader that constantly indulges in blame shifting and deflection on covid matters.
But you want to talk politics and not policy, so maybe try other threads if you want people to bite.


----------



## IFocus (29 May 2021)

My mother is in a nursing home.

Most of the residents have not been offered a Vaccine yet.

Currently scheduled for late July for 1st shot.

I wonder if the 7% of vulnerable has increased?

This is all Federal Gov responsibility complete mess.


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Australia offers a Liberal dose of clotting.
> 
> A better picture of where Australia sits is here:





IFocus said:


> My mother is in a nursing home.
> 
> Most of the residents have not been offered a Vaccine yet.
> 
> ...



That is interesting IFocus, my Mum is in Bethanie Fields in Bunbury and she has had both shots, ages ago..
Also the pharmacy located at the bridge in Mandurah is doing the shots, so strange your mum hasn't had hers.
I would be asking the home she is in, what is going on, it may be a case of inept management where she is..


----------



## IFocus (29 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is interesting IFocus, my Mum is in Bethanie Fields in Bunbury and she has had both shots, ages ago..
> Also the pharmacy located at the bridge in Mandurah is doing the shots, so strange your mum hasn't had hers.
> I would be asking the home she is in, what is going on, it may be a case of inept management where she is..





I have asked, they are waiting on vaccine supply and delivery.


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2021)

IFocus said:


> I have asked, they are waiting on vaccine supply and delivery.



Well today while having coffee, a couple I talk to were saying they are having the shot next week at the bridge pharmacy and he is still working.


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2021)

Is the Victorian outbreak the Indian strain?


----------



## IFocus (30 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Is the Victorian outbreak the Indian strain?





Believe so


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2021)

Quarantine is clearly Federal responsibility.

 Hotel quarantine should have been a stop gap to allow time for dedicated facilities to be built, but the Feds have done nothing apart from Howard springs.

This disease is not going away. New strains will emerge that are resistant to vaccines in the same way that the flu is resistant to vaccines. Hotel quarantine will be put under pressure.

Morrison should hold a hose for once, get off his backside and build dedicated facilities or reopen existing ones that have been shut down so that Australians stranded overseas can get home in larger numbers than the dribble we have now.


----------



## IFocus (30 May 2021)

Nothing like an outbreak to speed things up mothers nursing home now bought forward urgently also throwing two week gap between Flu and COVID vacs out the window.


----------



## sptrawler (1 June 2021)

Interesting that the U.K is worried about the Indian strain, when a high proportion of their population is vaccinated and now we have a new one.









						Covid-19: Vietnam says latest virus outbreak caused by hybrid of UK and Indian variants
					

As the Asian country sees its case numbers and death toll rise, lab tests discover a new version of the virus that might spread more easily.




					www.stuff.co.nz
				




Also sounds like things are taking off again in China.








						Flights cancelled as China sees surge in virus infections
					

China on Monday reported a sudden surge in Covid-19 infections in the country's south.




					au.news.yahoo.com


----------



## basilio (1 June 2021)

I can't see any way Victoria will come out of lockdown on Thursday.  This strain is very infectious and infected people people appear to have been almost everywhere. The probability that there won't be continuing cases from these visits seems remote.

*I think the Commonwealth and all the State Governments need to go into absolute emergency gear and speed up vaccination by a factor probably 10.  *We just can't afford to have States locked down because of the threat of uncontained infections. And we certainly can't have an economy spreading COVID like wildfire and effectively destroying our structures aka India, Malaysia, Peru etc etc. (Just something to consider for our investment portfolios..)

If this isn't recognised as a full scale emergency what the xuck is ???

Latest story is really concerning. Read it carefully.  It all happened before the lockdown. And the second story is equally concerning. We must all get vaccinated ASAP.









						Melbourne COVID-19 case went on camping trip in NSW, several areas on alert
					

NSW Health issues a COVID-19 alert after discovering a COVID-19 case from Melbourne visited several areas of the state while potentially infectious.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						Fresh quarantine hotel breach as virus leaks between rooms
					

A returned traveller staying at a quarantine hotel in Perth has acquired Covid-19 from a guest in a neighbouring room.




					au.news.yahoo.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2021)

basilio said:


> I can't see any way Victoria will come out of lockdown on Thursday.  This strain is very infectious and infected people people appear to have been almost everywhere. The probability that there won't be continuing cases from these visits seems remote.
> 
> *I think the Commonwealth and all the State Governments need to go into absolute emergency gear and speed up vaccination by a factor probably 10. *



Unfortunately it isn't China and people here have a choice, I suppose Scomo could call a State of emergency and send military patrols out to vaccinate people.
The media would love that, socialism knows no bounds, eh Bas. 🤣  🤣  🤣


----------



## basilio (2 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Unfortunately it isn't China and people here have a choice, I suppose Scomo could call a State of emergency and send military patrols out to vaccinate people.
> The media would love that, socialism knows no bounds, eh Bas. 🤣  🤣  🤣




 What a great little trolling wind up SP..  

Your quite right in suggesting any and every anti vaxxer can proudly refuse a jab.  Thats their "right"  (maybe..)  and good luck to them I wish them the very best of karma.

But this governments responsibility is to move heaven and earth to make sure there is sufficient vaccines for everyone who wants one, to ensure those in vulnerable situations get a jab ASAP and  show some xucking intelligent leadership in encouraging the broader community to understand the dangers of a continuing, more virulent COVID strain spreading throughout the community.

*Frankly from a political survival POV I think this is the only option they have.* I just don't believe the sensible centre of Australia thinks we can meander from now until doomsday waiting for vaccines. In fact I think the next opinion poll which asks this question going to be teh mother of wake up calls

And they could start by  making it clear that every member of the government is strongly in support of a quick mass vaccination.


----------



## basilio (2 June 2021)

The Guardian dissects the Governments "It's not a race" theme. Interestingly the comment was made by the Chief Medical Officer in January when the Government was assessing the quality of the various vaccines.

Since then he said times have changed. The vaccines are proven. We are now in go mode. But Scumo still hides behind a 6 month old comment that was out of date within  6 weeks  of it's use.









						The Morrison government’s ‘vaccine rollout is not a race’ nonsense tells us a lot about what’s gone wrong | Katharine Murphy
					

The Covid vaccination program has lacked urgency at every stage, with the government a few beats behind and its story not quite right




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2021)

basilio said:


> The Guardian dissects the Governments "It's not a race" theme. Interestingly the comment was made by the Chief Medical Officer in January when the Government was assessing the quality of the various vaccines.
> 
> Since then he said times have changed. The vaccines are proven. We are now in go mode. But Scumo still hides behind a 6 month old comment that was out of date within  6 weeks  of it's use.
> 
> ...



Just imagine if you had to putting up with the crap this guy has to take, let alone he has a family and two you girls at home, I just can't believe how some people say they are being trolled. 🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣
He is meant to be a covid expert, a vaccine and vaccine response expert, a jobseeker expert, a jobkeeper expert, a sexual assualt expert, a renewable generation expert, an expert on whatever the media commentator has studied up on to trip him up. 😜 
Yet we still criticise, like I say, if you are a sensible person judge on the outcomes, not on the media hype that just sells papers.


----------



## basilio (3 June 2021)

SP a PM isn't supposed to be an expert on everything. In fact  a boss who thinks they know everything is probably not the best person to have in the position.

A  good PM  must have an understanding of what is important and then ensure he has some quality Cabinet members and Heads of Department who can make sure what is supposed to be done is done. 

I tore into the lack of urgency the Government has demonstrated over the provision of sufficient vaccines to make all citizens safe. The reality is that there hasn't been sufficient vaccine produced nor promoted. Now when the community is suddenly galvanised into action we can see how badly prepared the Feds are.

And what about the attitude of the Minister for Aged care in overseeing his responsibilities ?









						‘Critical’ lack of Covid vaccine supply in Melbourne forcing GPs to turn people away
					

Undersupply so severe amid outbreak clinic forced to turn away residents of two care facilities




					www.theguardian.com
				












						In the dark yet 'comfortable': Minister's baffling oversight puts his competence in question
					

Aged Care Services Minister Richard Colbeck's competence has again been under serious question this week as he's struggled to explain what appears to be a baffling oversight in the vaccine roll-out: aged care staff, writes David Speers.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (3 June 2021)

basilio said:


> SP a PM isn't supposed to be an expert on everything. In fact  a boss who thinks they know everything is probably not the best person to have in the position.
> 
> A  good PM  must have an understanding of what is important and then ensure he has some quality Cabinet members and Heads of Department who can make sure what is supposed to be done is done.
> 
> ...



There is no excuse for a minister not being on top of his or her portfolio, if they aren't they should be thrown out of the job. That goes for Federal and State IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (3 June 2021)

One really good thing to come out of the virus IMO, is the realisation that Federal and State responsibilities have to be clear, both sides blame the other when things turn pear shaped.

This usually is because one side or the other, hasn't been meeting their responsibilities, with funding for the specific service.

At the end of the day the taxpayer pays for all the services, be they State or Federal services, but the States and the Federal Governments get their taxes from different sources i.e income tax, GST, land tax, payroll tax, electricity receipts, water charges, sewage charges, stamp duty etc.

So it is better for both sides Federal and State, to blame the other for any failings and try to force funding, thereby not having to increase taxes on their watch.
So this virus may actually bring the responsibility issue to a head, when it has been ducked and weaved around for a long, long time.

I think it well beyond time, that the media focus on the fact that it is the taxpayer that pays for it, rather than focusing on the politics of whether it is Federal or State depending on how they want to bias their reporting.

At the end of the day, It is the same taxpayer, who pays both taxes. Whether State taxes go up, or Federal taxes go up, it is the taxpayer who funds it.
Industry knows where i'm coming from.lol








						Wesfarmers’ message to governments: Don’t make us pay for the COVID stimulus
					

The stimulus-fuelled shopping bonanza has left companies like Bunnings, Kmart and Officeworks explaining to shareholders that the party is over now as more normal pre-COVID trading patterns return.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
In other words, ignore the COVID bumps, look at the two-year trajectory between 2019 and 2021 and focus on the positive trend line.

What COVID giveth COVID can taketh away. And what Scott clearly doesn’t want to see is businesses being hit with the costs of cleaning up after governments are left with the huge stimulus debt burden.
Scott took a thinly veiled swipe at Victoria’s decision to increase payroll tax on large companies - a decision which he believes hinders employment growth. He certainly won’t be wanting that decision to give other state governments ideas about employing taxes on business to repair their budgets.
“I appreciate the state and federal governments have significant funding challenges here, especially when revenue sources are declining, but the way through is not to increase the taxes on jobs such as payroll tax levies...that is very damaging and it’s working against efforts to try to get people back into work,” he argues.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 June 2021)

Employment of useless consultants wasting money still rife in government departments.









						A consultancy firm paid $660,000 provided no 'specific advice' on Australia's COVID-19 vaccine strategy
					

The federal government has relied on private consultancy firms for advice on a range of complex issues, including the vaccine rollout, but there's growing scrutiny over the lack of transparency around the advice provided.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (4 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Employment of useless consultants wasting money still rife in government departments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is a g up right? 
Did anyone look at the dumpster fire that is the Vic government?


----------



## SirRumpole (4 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> This is a g up right?
> Did anyone look at the dumpster fire that is the Vic government?




If you do the work then sometimes stuff ups happen. Last time it happened was in SA, why aren't you having a go at them ?

People who don't hold a hose don't get their hands dirty and can blame others.

Morrison is a weak ad-man, all talk no action.

You want a dumpster fire ? 









						In the dark yet 'comfortable': Minister's baffling oversight puts his competence in question
					

Aged Care Services Minister Richard Colbeck's competence has again been under serious question this week as he's struggled to explain what appears to be a baffling oversight in the vaccine roll-out: aged care staff, writes David Speers.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (4 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> One really good thing to come out of the virus IMO, is the realisation that Federal and State responsibilities have to be clear, both sides blame the other when things turn pear shaped.
> 
> This usually is because one side or the other, hasn't been meeting their responsibilities, with funding for the specific service.
> 
> ...



First, there is no ambiguity about quarantine responsibility.  It's spelled out in our Constitution as *a federal role*.
Second, while we all pay taxes to fund what our respective governments do, it is not distributed equally.  The GST component for example significantly underpays WA:





	

		
			
		

		
	
There is also no consistency to States tax rates for items such as property sales, payroll or vehicle registrations.
Third, as States are limited in the range of taxes they can collect, once Jobkeeper ended, any lockdowns would significantly affect the State/s implementing them. Given the largesse previously applied by Morrison to tackle covid woes, it should have come as a no brainer to immediately do something to support Victoria last week. Unfortunately *no brainer* has a liberal interpretation here.
Fourth, the States cannot just print money to get out of a bind!
Finally, going back to the first point, as quarantine is a federal responsibility and breaches should be paid for by the responsible party, this is not a *blame game* being played.  It's one where we are calling out our government to live up to what it is supposed to be doing to keep us all safe and prosperous.


----------



## moXJO (4 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If you do the work then sometimes stuff ups happen. Last time it happened was in SA, why aren't you having a go at them ?
> 
> People who don't hold a hose don't get their hands dirty and can blame others.
> 
> ...



Their contact tracing is a joke. 
There is no action until it's way too late.
They have no idea on containment beyond complete lockdowns.
Then we have a bunch of bootlicking leftist who think they are doing a wonderful job, but it's anything but.

NSW is doing a better job without the overbearing authoritarianism the Labor states seem to love dishing out. On top of that Vic is now dropping taxes on everything. I do want Victorians up and leaving Victoria and moving to NSW

It's the state that keeps on Fcking up. I also notice the Chardonnay leftist from Vic are the loudest of the bunch.


----------



## rederob (4 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> Their contact tracing is a joke.



A high level public servant I know doing contract tracing in NSW made a few points:

a small number of people are straight out dishonest
many of those who identify as *contacts *simply refuse to home quarantine 
convincing some people about the dangers is a lost cause
20 minute phone calls are not uncommon
It really makes no difference which State is involved as the above points are likely to be universal.


moXJO said:


> They have no idea on containment beyond complete lockdowns.



That's because lockdowns are the only practical measure of *containment*.  


moXJO said:


> Then we have a bunch of bootlicking leftist who think they are doing a wonderful job, but it's anything but.



Maybe put the blame back on a federal government not taking responsibility for quarantining!


moXJO said:


> It's the state that keeps on Fcking up. I also notice the Chardonnay leftist from Vic are the loudest of the bunch.



Nothing like a having a rational view, eh?
Where's the fed's covid safe app in all this?
Where is a national QR code that tracks cross border travel?
Where are the million doses of vaccine that are supposed to be produced each week?
Where are our negative pressure quarantine facilities?


----------



## sptrawler (4 June 2021)

rederob said:


> First, there is no ambiguity about quarantine responsibility.  It's spelled out in our Constitution as *a federal role*.
> Second, while we all pay taxes to fund what our respective governments do, it is not distributed equally.  The GST component for example significantly underpays WA:



The GST significantly underpays W.A, which Barnett took issue with for years and finally it is Morrison who has done something about it.



rederob said:


> There is also no consistency to States tax rates for items such as property sales, payroll or vehicle registrations.



And who's fault is that? the States wont even standardise licensing


rederob said:


> Third, as States are limited in the range of taxes they can collect, once Jobkeeper ended, any lockdowns would significantly affect the State/s implementing them. Given the largesse previously applied by Morrison to tackle covid woes, it should have come as a no brainer to immediately do something to support Victoria last week. Unfortunately *no brainer* has a liberal interpretation here.



If the lockdown had been limited to 7 days, implementing anything other than at a local level would be all but impossible to control, then the finger pointing would have been about poor implementation. Once the lockdown was extended, processes were implemented, why no big song and dance when W.A had a snap lockdown a month or so ago?


rederob said:


> Fourth, the States cannot just print money to get out of a bind!



Agrred


rederob said:


> Finally, going back to the first point, as quarantine is a federal responsibility and breaches should be paid for by the responsible party, this is not a *blame game* being played.  It's one where we are calling out our government to live up to what it is supposed to be doing to keep us all safe and prosperous.



The issue is as you are probably aware having worked for the Government, if the virus is eradicated, having stranded purpose built infrastructure and displaced staff becomes a major issue.
I notice the Government even though they have been slow to commit are now talking of doing so, the good thing IMO is they appear to be taking a sensible approach and suggesting building them near existing airports with international aircraft capability.


----------



## sptrawler (4 June 2021)

WOW interesting article in the SMH. The whole article is worth a read, but I have just taken out a few of the passages, as it is quite long and covers a few different issues. Trying to keep on thread








						It’s China that’s fighting to contain COVID’s fallout now, not the West
					

Turns out the democratic West did not lose the pandemic after all. The year that China claimed ascendancy may prove to be its annus horribilis.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
American and European vaccines are the miracle cure sought by everybody. Japan’s vaccination drive has been strangely inept and nine prefectures covering 50 per cent of GDP are still under a state of emergency. A fourth wave has filled hospitals, and the Indian Delta variant has again thrown the Olympics into doubt. Japan’s economy remains stuck in recession.
Those who relied heavily on Chinese vaccines have grown wary of large claims and opaque science. Chile vaccinated fast and early with Sinovac, and Hungary with Sinopharm. Both were overwhelmed by fresh waves of hospitalisation and death. Nobody believes trial data any more.

China is belatedly vaccinating its own population as highly infectious variants keep popping up. Parts of Guangdong are again under draconian curbs.

George Gao, head of China’s Centre for Disease Control, says his country’s vaccines “don’t have very high protection rates” and may have to be mixed with Western mRNA technology to contain further waves of contagion. Which raises the question: will China have to rely on repressive surveillance measures long after the West has fully reopened?

“The perception of China as the great winner has turned around. The momentum is now on the side of the Western liberal democracies,” said Professor Ho-Fung Hung at Johns Hopkins University. “The US and the UK have the pandemic under control and their vaccines are very effective. It is China that is now struggling,” he said.

The red-hot US economy has already regained its pre-pandemic levels of GDP but has done so with 8 million fewer workers, evidence of rocketing productivity. Lockdowns seem to have condensed seven years of digital take-up into a single year. Who would have imagined that stopping people going to work would be such a Schumpeterian catalyst?

The OECD’s global outlook this week made an astonishing forecast. It suggested that the US economy would surpass even its pre-virus growth trajectory as soon as the third quarter. 

The risk for China is that the investigation of the Wuhan lab theory by the US intelligence agencies validates what has until now been deemed a conspiracy theory.

If the Chinese state is found to have created this virus, covered up the leak, and then allowed airline passengers to seed it around the world, the consequences will be catastrophic. The year that China claimed ascendancy may prove to be its annus horribilis.


----------



## moXJO (4 June 2021)

rederob said:


> A high level public servant I know doing contract tracing in NSW made a few points:
> 
> a small number of people are straight out dishonest
> many of those who identify as *contacts *simply refuse to home quarantine
> ...



The proof is in the pudding. NSW Sydney has the highest density and managed to lockdown just the north shore and still come up golden. 
Vic couldn't run a greasy stick up a pigs ass with a drilling rig in tow.

I know plenty of high level public servants and all States fudge it


----------



## Knobby22 (4 June 2021)

What about the two Victorians which have delta strain Indian virus! That is the worst one unrelated to the others and it may have been picked up in NSW!! it is unrelated to the leak from SA and children get quite sick with it and can transmit it.

I wonder if this is the strain in China causing them problems? Its is the UK and much of Asia now.
This is a disappointment to say the least. If its in NSW undetected then we are all in trouble.


----------



## rederob (4 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> WOW interesting article in the SMH. The whole article is worth a read, but I have just taken out a few of the passages, as it is quite long and covers a few different issues. Trying to keep on thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why choose poor journalism from an *opinion *piece over the facts?


----------



## basilio (4 June 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> What about the two Victorians which have delta strain Indian virus! That is the worst one unrelated to the others and it may have been picked up in NSW!! it is unrelated to the leak from SA and children get quite sick with it and can transmit it.
> 
> I wonder if this is the strain in China causing them problems? Its is the UK and much of Asia now.
> This is a disappointment to say the least. If its in NSW undetected then we are all in trouble.




This is seriously  concerning.  Also the fact that the family have been travelling extensively. 









						Delta COVID strain that devastated India detected in Victorian community
					

Genomic sequencing in two cases in Melbourne has detected the Delta strain of the virus, which is considered a variant of concern by health authorities.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## IFocus (4 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> The proof is in the pudding. NSW Sydney has the highest density and managed to lockdown just the north shore and still come up golden.
> Vic couldn't run a greasy stick up a pigs ass with a drilling rig in tow.
> 
> I know plenty of high level public servants and all States fudge it





Mo keep up, apparently the NSW's model of containment is unlikely to cope with the infection rate of this new strain

The Vic's will be hard pressed to contain the current out break.

If it gets loose in NSW and they keep the same model heaven forbid that the epidemiologists fears come about.


----------



## moXJO (4 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> Mo keep up, apparently the NSW's model of containment is unlikely to cope with the infection rate of this new strain
> 
> The Vic's will be hard pressed to contain the current out break.
> 
> If it gets loose in NSW and they keep the same model heaven forbid that the epidemiologists fears come about.



I  highly doubt that nsw will lock the whole thing down. 

How many of you guys are vaccinated?


----------



## SirRumpole (4 June 2021)

Not yet.


----------



## moXJO (4 June 2021)

My mate offered to get me in on a pfizer vaccine. I'd rather get it done with now. Might see what's locally available though.

The honest truth is that I haven't even given it a second thought, which is probably what the rest of you are doing.

 I'm going to get it before you all just so I can rub it in all your faces and bragging rights.


----------



## sptrawler (4 June 2021)

rederob said:


> Why choose poor journalism from an *opinion *piece over the facts?



Because the media, who I constantly criticise, choose to print it.
Why don't you ask them?    instead of criticising me for  criticise them. 🤣


----------



## rederob (4 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Because the media, who I constantly criticise, choose to print it.
> Why don't you ask them?    instead of criticising me for  criticise them. 🤣



*You *said "The whole article is worth a read".
The whole article was crap.
You might want to check that what you link to is truly as good as you proclaim!
Anyone for Fox?


----------



## sptrawler (4 June 2021)

rederob said:


> *You *said "The whole article is worth a read".
> The whole article was crap.
> You might want to check that what you link to is truly as good as you proclaim!
> Anyone for Fox?



*WHICH *is what I say about most journalism these days *most is crap,* and* YOU* keep telling me not to blame the media, they printed the 'story' I said it was worth a read.
If it was bagging Morrison, you would be applauding.👍
KEEP YOUR HAIR ON MATE. 🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣
Just because it was criticising China it upsets you, when it criticises Australia, it upsets us. 

As you would say, don't blame the media, for a poorly run Country. 😭


----------



## rederob (4 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> *WHICH *is what I say about most journalism these days *most is crap,* and* YOU* keep telling me not to blame the media, they printed the 'story' I said it was worth a read.
> If it was bagging Morrison, you would be applauding.👍
> KEEP YOUR HAIR ON MATE. 🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣
> Just because it was criticising China it upsets you, when it criticises Australia, it upsets us.



Won't we all be better off with links to  credible information?
Morrison is a proven failure and does not the media to reinforce his shortcomings.
I am wondering if the Olympics will include an event for national leaders who can backflip.  I reckon Morrison is a shoo-in.


----------



## sptrawler (4 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Not yet.



Neither me or the missus yet, just love living on the edge.
Hey @IFocus , down your way, you have a better chance of being taken by a great white, than covid. Really with the Forrest Hwy no one goes your was anymore.🤣
Excepts for me on the bike, Southern Estuary road is so nice. 👍


----------



## sptrawler (4 June 2021)

rederob said:


> Won't we all be better off with links to  credible information?
> Morrison is a proven failure and does not the media to reinforce his shortcomings.
> I am wondering if the Olympics will include an event for national leaders who can backflip.  I reckon Morrison is a shoo-in.



No doubt we will soon see his score, as i said a while ago, I wouldn't be surprised to see an early election (late Oct).
Just a stab in the dark, but makes a lot of sense IMO.

By the way you just proved my point, you just couldn't stop yourself having a go at Morrison in your reply, as I said you would have applauded the 'opinion' piece, if it was taking the piss out of Morrison, but were outraged when it was taking the pizz out of China.
Does leave some credibility holes on your side, just saying. 🤣
Did you notice I haven't criticised China at all.😍


----------



## rederob (4 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> By the way you just proved my point, you just couldn't stop yourself having a go at Morrison in your reply,



I posted Hungary's death data confirming the crap told your linked opinion piece.
You raised Morrison, and I merely confirmed his incompetence which I covered earlier in this thread.  
Looks like the States might be getting some belated traction on building quarantine facilities as Morrison does yet another backflip.  He's beyond useless.


----------



## sptrawler (4 June 2021)

rederob said:


> I posted Hungary's death data confirming the crap told your linked opinion piece.




I only posted what was in the media, *as you say*, stop blaming the media, obviously there is truth in it because you tell me to stop criticising them when they print up crap.  Obviously it is only crap when it doesn't conform to your beliefs. 



rederob said:


> You raised Morrison, and I merely confirmed his incompetence which I covered earlier in this thread.
> Looks like the States might be getting some belated traction on building quarantine facilities as Morrison does yet another backflip.  He's beyond useless.



As I said Morrison will be judged very soon IMO, then we will see what the majority of Australian's think.
You think China is great, many in Australia, aren't so sure, so maybe it is you that is out of step, who knows?. I certainly wouldn't presume to have the answers, unlike yourself.








						Only 23% of Australians trust China to act responsibly in the world, Lowy Institute poll finds
					

While 51% of Australians trust the US, just 30% trust Donald Trump to act responsibly on the world stage




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## rederob (5 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I only posted what was in the media, *as you say*, stop blaming the media, obviously there is truth in it because you tell me to stop criticising them when they print up crap.  Obviously it is only crap when it doesn't conform to your beliefs.



This is getting a bit silly.
*You *recommended an article to be worth reading.
Surely if it was worth reading it would be accurate?
In reply I posted a chart proving the writers claims for Hungary - by way of just one example - were completely wrong.  
The chart I posted had zip to do with what anyone *believed*.  It was one of the many facts that people lie about or distort to make spurious claims and derive baseless opinions regard covid events. 


sptrawler said:


> As I said Morrison will be judged very soon IMO, then we will see what the majority of Australian's think.



So what?
The question here is how Morrison is going with regard to handling covid outbreaks that are happening *now*.  
Why have the States had to drive the agenda?
Why isn't Morrison leading?
I am critical of Morrison and have clearly stated where he falls short of being competent on covid issues.  And frankly I would be as critical of anyone who was our PM and doing such a shythouse job.  The difference with Morrison though is that when it comes to incompetence, he epitomises our definition of an "all rounder".


sptrawler said:


> You think China is great, many in Australia, aren't so sure, so maybe it is you that is out of step, who knows?.



I post data and regularly challenge people who make claims that are unsupported to provide their evidence.  If people cannot live up to that challenge then what they are choosing to believe lives in the world of *propaganda*.  By way of example, this was the case for a majority of Republicans who falsely believed that Obama, after being President for 6 years, was a Muslim, and that Trump won the 2020 election.  


sptrawler said:


> I certainly wouldn't presume to have the answers, unlike yourself.



When I have useful data I present it.  What people do with it is their call.  
You could have defended what was *worth reading *in your linked article but in many posts since then have not.


----------



## IFocus (5 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Neither me or the missus yet, just love living on the edge.
> Hey @IFocus , down your way, you have a better chance of being taken by a great white, than covid. Really with the Forrest Hwy no one goes your was anymore.🤣
> Excepts for me on the bike, Southern Estuary road is so nice. 👍





Hey Mo wife and  I have had the AZ, so has my whole street no issues.

SP yes shark hugging season is under way thankfully the salmon have been slow this year so not too many whites inshore as of yet.

Late last year think it was 4 or 5 times forced out of the water a couple of times you could actually see the bow wave of the white swimming under water.


----------



## moXJO (5 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> Hey Mo wife and  I have had the AZ, so has my whole street no issues.
> 
> SP yes shark hugging season is under way thankfully the salmon have been slow this year so not too many whites inshore as of yet.
> 
> Late last year think it was 4 or 5 times forced out of the water a couple of times you could actually see the bow wave of the white swimming under water.



Might just go get the AZ then


----------



## basilio (5 June 2021)

Federal government  support for people stood down because of COVID looking a bit thin at the moment.

*The sticking point is saying that if anyone is on any other government support they aren't eligible.* The facts on the ground are that many many casual workers are also on youth allowance or benefits. Simply speaking very few people can survive on just benefits or 10-15 hours of intermittent casual work. The loss of casual work in these circumstances is the difference between paying the rent or being forced out of whatever place they live. Sincerely hope this gets changed quick smart.

If anything people on benefts who are also doing some casual work are even more vulnerable than those lively soley on benefits. In the first case they will generally have costs that of living that were based (to some extent) on the extra $100-150 pw they were earning.


----------



## IFocus (5 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> Might just go get the AZ then





Most people I know took Panadol before and after which seems to quell any after symptoms

For me it was the same as the flu jab which I had two weeks before, my mother had the flu jab and Pfizer same day no problems.

The latest COVID variants are concerning.

Other than the odd blood clot AZ is fine it will keep you out of ICU should it all hit the fan.


----------



## sptrawler (5 June 2021)

rederob said:


> This is getting a bit silly.
> *You *recommended an article to be worth reading.
> Surely if it was worth reading it would be accurate?
> In reply I posted a chart proving the writers claims for Hungary - by way of just one example - were completely wrong.
> The chart I posted had zip to do with what anyone *believed*.  It was one of the many facts that people lie about or distort to make spurious claims and derive baseless opinions regard covid events.




I never said the article was right, only that it was worth a read.
I only ever said the article was an example of how poor reporting is these days and why I have a dislike of the media.
So is it because you are focusing on yourself and not about the point I was making?.



rederob said:


> So what?
> The question here is how Morrison is going with regard to handling covid outbreaks that are happening *now*.
> Why have the States had to drive the agenda?
> Why isn't Morrison leading?
> I am critical of Morrison and have clearly stated where he falls short of being competent on covid issues.  And frankly I would be as critical of anyone who was our PM and doing such a shythouse job.  The difference with Morrison though is that when it comes to incompetence, he epitomises our definition of an "all rounder".



The States have driven the Agenda, because indeed they are in control of much of the agenda, Most will see Morrison forming a heads of State forum as a positive.
Most will see the result Australia has achieved and in most cases will credit some of it to Morrison, as I said earlir Albo needs to get his skates on, relying on the SMH and the ABC to get him over the line wont work IMO.



rederob said:


> I post data and regularly challenge people who make claims that are unsupported to provide their evidence.  If people cannot live up to that challenge then what they are choosing to believe lives in the world of *propaganda*.  By way of example, this was the case for a majority of Republicans who falsely believed that Obama, after being President for 6 years, was a Muslim, and that Trump won the 2020 election.



You post what supports your beliefs, as does everyone else, it is just you don't acknowledge anyone else's point unless it coincides with yours



rederob said:


> When I have useful data I present it.  What people do with it is their call.
> You could have defended what was *worth reading *in your linked article but in many posts since then have not.



I quite often give you a credit, when I think it is non biased and sensible comment, unfortunately I'm reluctant when your posting fails on one of the criteria because it becomes tainted.


----------



## DB008 (6 June 2021)

Interesting....

EXCLUSIVE: High-Ranking Chinese Defector Has 'Direct Knowledge' of Several Chinese Special Weapons Programs​
A person believed to be among the highest-ranking defectors ever to the United States from the People’s Republic of China has been working with the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) for months, sources inside the intelligence community have told RedState on condition of anonymity. The defector has direct knowledge of special weapons programs in China, including bioweapons programs, those sources say.

The information provided to RedState corroborates and clarifies Thursday evening’s reporting by journalist Adam Housley.

​


RedState’s sources say that’s partially true. FBI Director Christopher Wray was “ambushed” with the information, they say, and Langley was also unaware. Sources say DIA leadership kept the defector within their Clandestine Services network to prevent Langley and the State Department from accessing the person, whose existence was kept from other agencies because DIA leadership believes there are Chinese spies or sources inside the FBI, CIA, and several other federal agencies.







Sources tell RedState the defector has been with the DIA for three months and that he has provided an extensive, technically detailed debrief to US officials. In DIA’s assessment, the information provided by the defector is legitimate. Sources say the level of confidence in the defector’s information is what has led to a sudden crisis of confidence in Dr. Anthony Fauci, adding that U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID) personnel detailed to DIA have corroborated very technical details of information provided by the defector.


https://redstate.com/jenvanlaar/202...eral-chinese-special-weapons-programs-n391238​


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2021)

Trump back in the news, demanding China pay $10trillion reparations, over Covid 19.









						Trump demands China pay ‘reparations’ for role in coronavirus pandemic
					

Former President Trump on Saturday called for China to pay “reparations” for its role in the coronavirus pandemic amid a renewed debate around its origins.




					thehill.com
				



From the artice:
The comment comes as the theory that COVID-19 originated in a laboratory in Wuhan, China gains renewed attention after previously being dismissed.

The World Health Organization released a report earlier this year dismissing the lab leak theory as “extremely unlikely.”

The Wall Street Journal reported last month that scientists at Wuhan’s Institute of Virology became so ill with COVID-19-like symptoms that they required hospitalization in November 2019, reigniting interest in the lab leak theory.

Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious diseases expert, told The Financial Times in an interview published Friday that he wanted to see the records of the scientists who reportedly got sick.

“I would like to see the medical records of the three people who are reported to have got sick in 2019,” Fauci told the news outlet. “Did they really get sick, and if so, what did they get sick with?

Trump, who was among the first to blame a lab leak for the virus, issued a statement last month claiming vindication for the assertion, and doubled down of his use of anti-Chinese rhetoric. However, he never produced any evidence.

Trump said on Saturday that nations of the world should “work together to present China bill for a minimum of $10 trillion to compensate for the damage they've caused.”

“The damage is far, far greater than that,” Trump continued. “As a first step, all countries should collectively cancel any debt they owe to China as a down payment on reparations.”


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2021)

We have said on many occasions that the truth eventually has a way of coming out, well I think the next 6 months will be really interesting. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57352992









						Fauci claims US gave $600,000 to Wuhan lab research; documents show it was more
					

In a Senate hearing late last month, top doctor Anthony Fauci told lawmakers the U.S. granted $600,000 in funding to the Wuhan Institute of Virology over a five year period, but documents provided by the Department of Health and Human Services Friday show otherwise.




					news.yahoo.com
				











						Fauci's 2,000 emails a day show how little U.S. officials knew in the early days of the Covid pandemic
					

Some of the emails to Fauci at the beginning of the pandemic turned out to be eerily prophetic as thousands reached out to him for advice or with suggestions.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## rederob (7 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The States have driven the Agenda, because indeed they are in control of much of the agenda,



How many times do we need to point out that quarantine is a federal responsibility.
Also, the stuff up with vaccine rollouts is a federal issue.
The stuff up with aged care is a also federal issue.
The States have implemented QR codes because the feds still think the covid safe app is a goer!  This was the app that was going to help open up business.
Luckily the States have regularly told the feds where to get off.


sptrawler said:


> You post what supports your beliefs, as does everyone else, it is just you don't acknowledge anyone else's point unless it coincides with yours



I seldom do that.  I post credible data, science and other verifiable information.  And I challenge the crap that gets posted from time to time, which many don't like as they then have to try and defend it.


----------



## sptrawler (7 June 2021)

rederob said:


> How many times do we need to point out that quarantine is a federal responsibility.
> Also, the stuff up with vaccine rollouts is a federal issue.
> The stuff up with aged care is a also federal issue.
> The States have implemented QR codes because the feds still think the covid safe app is a goer!  This was the app that was going to help open up business.
> Luckily the States have regularly told the feds where to get off.



Only when it suits them.
Bush fires are a State responsibility, until the P.M is away when a major one breaks out in NSW, then it is the P.M's fault.
Then 12 months later when W.A has catastrophic bushfires, no one gives a $hit where the P.M is, as per usual media and vested interest hype. 🤣

When it comes to vaccine roll out, a dose of here it comes again in Victoria, is sorting it out the stuff up, without Morrison doing anything.
Because most of the problem was, most didn't want it, but hey when that doesn't fit the narrative, why explain it. 








						One million vaccine doses given in last 9 days, taking national total to 5 million
					

Commodore Eric Young says Australia's vaccine rollout has accelerated from 1 million doses in 47 days to 1 million just nine days.




					www.abc.net.au
				




*Apparently 1,000,000 given in the last 9 days. 👍🤣*




rederob said:


> *I seldom do that*.  I post credible data, science and other verifiable information.  And I challenge the crap that gets posted from time to time, which many don't like as they then have to try and defend it.



Seldom doesn't hold up in Court, you do it, saying you do it less than others is subjective. 🤣

What our debate started over, was you accusing me of blaming the media for false information.
I then posted up a poorly written media article that criticised China, you then have spent the last several days explaining to me that the media article was false information, which actually confirms what I have been saying from the start. 😍


----------



## rederob (7 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Because most of the problem was, most didn't want it, but hey when that doesn't fit the narrative, why explain it.



Because we we told the government wanted to be sure we had a safe vaccine so were not in a race, but we got AZ which has a quantifiable death rate, aside from a quantifiable rate of severe side effects.


sptrawler said:


> What our debate started over, was you accusing me of blaming the media for false information.



Again, untrue!
I showed by way of example that your link was crap.
You kept claiming it was worth reading, and I suggested it needed to be accurate if it was worth reading.
We are going around in circles because you are reading into my posts things which are not there.
Also, the regurgitation of the lab leak idea by the media is scientifically less valid now than when it was proposed a year ago.  However, it's being raked over, and over, and over, with the hope that throwing enough mud makes it credible.
Far more credible than the lab leak idea were reports of European athletes who participated in the Military World Games held in Wuhan in October.  Meanwhile there remain question marks about what really happened at Fort Detrick which has a history of coronavirus research, and was closed for a period in 2019.  
None of those ideas are, however, as likely as known history of coronaviruses to mutate naturally and become infectious to humans.  
The blame game on origins is rather pathetic imho.
The real game is how best to respond.


----------



## sptrawler (7 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> *WHICH *is what I say about most journalism these days *most is crap,* and* YOU* keep telling me not to blame the media, they printed the 'story' I said it was worth a read.
> If it was bagging Morrison, you would be applauding.👍
> KEEP YOUR HAIR ON MATE. 🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣
> Just because it was criticising China it upsets you, when it criticises Australia, it upsets us.
> ...






rederob said:


> Because we we told the government wanted to be sure we had a safe vaccine so were not in a race, but we got AZ which has a quantifiable death rate, aside from a quantifiable rate of severe side effects.
> 
> Again, untrue!
> I showed by way of example that your link was crap.
> ...



You really do need to get a grip. 
You constantly criticise posters, who say the media is posting crap articles and tell them not to blame the media when the media is supporting your beliefs.
When I posted up a media article, that disagreed with your beliefs, you take the stance that the article is crap.
Your full of it Rob. 🤣 

My post #3,327, that is nearly 20 posts ago, you need to realise you aren't always right, but hey maybe you are paid to just keep churning it out?


sptrawler said:


> *WHICH *is what I say about most journalism these days *most is crap,* and* YOU* keep telling me not to blame the media, they printed the 'story' I said it was worth a read.
> If it was bagging Morrison, you would be applauding.👍
> KEEP YOUR HAIR ON MATE. 🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣
> Just because it was criticising China it upsets you, when it criticises Australia, it upsets us.
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (7 June 2021)

rederob said:


> Also, the regurgitation of the lab leak idea by the media is scientifically less valid now than when it was proposed a year ago.  However, it's being raked over, and over, and over, with the hope that throwing enough mud makes it credible.
> Far more credible than the lab leak idea were reports of European athletes who participated in the Military World Games held in Wuhan in October.  Meanwhile there remain question marks about what really happened at Fort Detrick which has a history of coronavirus research, and was closed for a period in 2019.
> None of those ideas are, however, as likely as known history of coronaviruses to mutate naturally and become infectious to humans.
> The blame game on origins is rather pathetic imho.
> The real game is how best to respond.



With regard the Lab leak, apparently of most concern is, there has been no trace of any animal infection.
So if no host animal can be found it does bring up questions.
Also you must have been thrilled that Morrison managed to get 1,000,000 vaccinated in 9 days, he must have been flat out. 🤣


----------



## moXJO (8 June 2021)

rederob said:


> Because we we told the government wanted to be sure we had a safe vaccine so were not in a race, but we got AZ which has a quantifiable death rate, aside from a quantifiable rate of severe side effects.
> 
> Again, untrue!
> I showed by way of example that your link was crap.
> ...



The lab leak is just as legit as your theories. It happened before with sars. History repeats.


----------



## rederob (8 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You constantly criticise posters, who say the media is posting crap articles and tell them not to blame the media when the media is supporting your beliefs.



Simply false in your case, but there are a few other posters here that have regularly used media sources that are barely credible.
But let's go around in your circle of deceit.
I showed your link was false and misleading and suggested it would be worth reading if it was accurate, which clearly it was not.
At no time did I post a "belief".
Nor did I use other media links in response to your link: I used data.
When I use media links it's usually to emphasise a point I have made because it contains information I have relied on.
I don't know much and I don't believe much.
But I can usually work out when posted information is flawed.
On the other hand you keep wanting to make this personal rather than about what is being posted.

I also look at the logic of what is posted, such as below:


sptrawler said:


> With regard the Lab leak, apparently of most concern is, there has been no trace of any animal infection.
> So if no host animal can be found it does bring up questions.



On the basis of your point every laboratory in the world is now implicated.
Conspiracy theorists could meaningfully declare it was developed in Australia and planted in China to get back at them.  It's credible because Australia was - somehow??? - the first country outside of China to *grow the virus in a lab*.
So little wonder China keeps raising Fort Detrick when US vs China the blame game is running.
Scientifically speaking the point is meaningless.  SARS-CoV-2 is consistent with a long lineage of known coronaviruses that mostly have a bat origin but an unknown intermediate species.  MERS and SARS-CoV-1 fall into this category despite well over a decade of research.
Logically speaking, if no intermediate species is found it is quite possible it died of the disease or even died naturally and only ever spread its contagion to a human.
Practically speaking, the WIV never conducted research on bats that were genomically close enough to SARS-CoV-2, making the lab leak claim baseless or "extremely unlikely" as the world's best investigators concluded:


----------



## rederob (8 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> The lab leak is just as legit as your theories. It happened before with sars. History repeats.



I don't have a theory.


----------



## moXJO (8 June 2021)

rederob said:


> I don't have a theory.



Sorry. Official word from ccp


----------



## basilio (9 June 2021)

A Victorian woman travelled through NSW to Caloundra. She has now tested positive for COVID and  she has visited a  heap of places along the way.  

Not good for NSW or Queensland and certainly ugly for her...









						Swathe of COVID-19 alerts for NSW after infected Victorian travels through state
					

NSW Health authorities say a positive COVID-19 case from Victoria visited several regional locations while potentially infectious and heading towards Queensland last week.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2021)

basilio said:


> A Victorian woman travelled through NSW to Caloundra. She has now tested positive for COVID and  she has visited a  heap of places along the way.
> 
> Not good for NSW or Queensland and certainly ugly for her...
> 
> ...



I thought I read a woman left Victoria four days after the lockdown, if so she may be in a bit of trouble.




__





						No Cookies | Herald Sun
					

No Cookies




					www.heraldsun.com.au


----------



## rederob (10 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I thought I read a woman left Victoria four days after the lockdown, if so she may be in a bit of trouble.



*Maybe not as much trouble as where she visited.  Here's her NSW travel details:*




And then Qld:




("cont*r*act tracing???)


----------



## sptrawler (13 June 2021)

Interesting article on one of the first cruise ship to start up again in the Caribbean.








						Passengers onboard fully vaccinated cruise test positive to Covid
					

All passengers and crew were required to be fully vaccinated and provide a negative Covid test.




					au.news.yahoo.com


----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2021)

There is still a degree of reluctance to get the vaccine, it isn't a very large poll, but does show there is still community concerns.








						Vaccine concerns ease, but only slightly, as 26 per cent say unlikely to get jab
					

Data shows there is majority support for vaccination among Australians but highlights the obstacles in signing up the final quarter of adults.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
The Resolve Political Monitor, conducted for _The Sydney Morning Herald_ and _The Age _by research company Resolve Strategic, finds majority support for vaccination but highlights the obstacles in signing up the last quarter of adults.

“Encouragingly, over the last month we see a significant jump in the number of adult Australians taking up their first vaccine jab and a flow through to new registrations to do so,” said Resolve director Jim Reed.
Loading
“However, we still see 26 per cent of Australians are hesitant to get vaccinated, down from 29 per cent last month, so this has not been greatly shifted by the Victorian outbreak.”
The Resolve Political Monitor showed last month that older Australians and women were more hesitant than men to sign up for the vaccine according to responses from people who had not already had a vaccine or registered for one.
The latest results have a margin of error of 2.5 per cent and come from questions asked of 1600 voters online from June 8 to 12.


----------



## rederob (17 June 2021)

This article was earlier behind the NWT paywall, but Yahoo has now lifted it.
While in science most things are possible, some are extremely unlikely.
When the WHO team investigating covid origins came to that conclusion you would have thought that attention afterwards might have focussed on more plausible scenarios.
For example, a US NIH study concluded:
*"The results expand on findings from a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study that suggested SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, was present in the U.S. as far back as December 2019."*

Politicising science is not a good idea, as has been evident over recent decades regarding climate. While ongoing investigation will occur, the real issue is how to better respond when the next pandemic occurs.
I found it interesting that the findings of The Independent Panel appointed by the World Health Organisation (to ensure that any future infectious disease outbreak does not become another catastrophic pandemic) appear to have been systematically scrubbed from their website, and that several video sessions regarding those findings and involving WHO participants have disappeared. Looks like nobody likes to be told they could have done a lot better!


----------



## sptrawler (18 June 2021)

Obviously the amount of defamation cases going on, is starting to get some traction, it wasn't long ago comments like this were allowed to unchallenged. It is good to see fake news, is starting to held to account.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/not-a-doc...aim-about-chief-health-officer-022403742.html
From the article:
Two guests on ABC's Q&A have apologised after public backlash followed their remarks saying Victoria's Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton is not a doctor.
On last night's episode guest host David Speers posed a question which was sent in about the Covid-19 outbreaks in Victoria.
"When is someone going to ask the state government in Victoria why they can't handle the outbreaks like NSW?" Speers asked, quoting a viewer's question.

"The Victorian government has been asked that. Tom, what's the answer?"
3AW Drive Host Tom Elliott began answering the question, saying he knows doctors who think Prof Sutton has "got it completely wrong".

Then two of the other guests, Hana Assafiri and Susan Alberti, both interjected to say Prof Sutton is not a doctor.

Two guests on ABC's Q&A have apologised after public backlash followed their remarks saying Victoria's Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton is not a doctor.
On last night's episode guest host David Speers posed a question which was sent in about the Covid-19 outbreaks in Victoria.
"When is someone going to ask the state government in Victoria why they can't handle the outbreaks like NSW?" Speers asked, quoting a viewer's question.

"The Victorian government has been asked that. Tom, what's the answer?"

On Thursday’s episode of Q&A, two guests on the show asserted Professor Brett Sutton was 'not a doctor'. Source: ABC
3AW Drive Host Tom Elliott began answering the question, saying he knows doctors who think Prof Sutton has "got it completely wrong".

Then two of the other guests, Hana Assafiri and Susan Alberti, both interjected to say Prof Sutton is not a doctor.

Viewers were taken aback by the suggestion Prof Sutton is not a doctor. Victoria's Chief Health Officer is a doctor and he has an extensive resume detailing his work in the medical field both in Australia and overseas.
"Professor Sutton has extensive experience and clinical expertise in public health and communicable diseases, gained through emergency medicine and field-based international work, including in Afghanistan and Timor-Leste," it says on the Victorian Government's website.
"That defamatory lie about Brett Sutton should have been immediately refuted and the person alleging it made to apologise," someone tweeted.
"You said Professor Brett Sutton is not a Dr, yet he holds an MBBS, a Master of Public Health, and is a professor," another said.
Since the backlash, both Ms Assafiri and Ms Alberti have apologised on social media and clarified what they meant.


----------



## qldfrog (20 June 2021)

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/na...-to-address-bed-capacity-20210619-p582fj.html
Option 1: we are so sheer incompetent that 1.5 y after what people tell us is the pandemic of the century, we are unable to handle a much reduced normal flu season
option 2: one variant of covid is planned to spread it would kind of make sense as covid likes winter
Option3: you tell me..?
In either option 1 or 2, this is pathetic


----------



## sptrawler (22 June 2021)

Some longer term health issues are being examined, from covid patients.








						New Covid study hints at long-term loss of brain tissue, Dr. Scott Gottlieb warns
					

Dr. Scott Gottlieb warned about the potential long-term effects of Covid and pointed to a new study that suggests brain tissue is being destroyed.




					www.cnbc.com
				



From the article:
Dr. Scott Gottlieb warned Thursday about the potential for long-term brain loss associated with Covid, citing a new study from the United Kingdom.

“In short, the study suggests that there could be some long-term loss of brain tissue from Covid, and that would have some long-term consequences,” the former FDA chief and CNBC contributor said. 

 “You could compensate for that over time, so the symptoms of that may go away, but you’re never going to regain the tissue if, in fact, it’s being destroyed as a result of the virus,” said Gottlieb, who serves on the board of Covid vaccine-maker Pfizer.
The U.K. study examined brain imaging before and after a coronavirus infection and looked specifically at the potential effect on the nervous system. 

Gottlieb explained to CNBC’s “The News with Shepard Smith” that the destruction of brain tissue could explain why Covid patients lost their sense of smell. 
“The diminishment in the amount of cortical tissue happened to be in regions of the brain that are close to the places that are responsible for smell,” he said. “What it suggests is that, the smell, the loss of smell, is just an effect of a more primary process that’s underway, and that process is actually shrinking of cortical tissue.”


----------



## sptrawler (22 June 2021)

As we speculated early on it is more a flu shot than a vaccine, so boosters will most likely be required annually.








						Five years before a vaccine can 'hold the line' against Covid variants, England's medical chief says
					

England's top medical officer has warned that the coming winter will continue to be difficult for the country's health system.




					www.cnbc.com
				



From the article:
LONDON — England’s top medical officer has warned that the coming winter will continue to be difficult for the country’s health system despite the country’s successful coronavirus vaccination program.

A further easing of lockdown restrictions in England was delayed this week due to a surge in cases of the delta variant first discovered in India. 

In a speech to the NHS Confederation Thursday, Chief Medical Officer Chris Whitty said the current wave of Covid infections due to the delta variant would likely be followed by another surge in the winter.

He said that Covid-19 “has not thrown its last surprise at us and there will be several more [variants] over the next period,” according to Sky News. He added that it would likely take five years before there are vaccines that could “hold the line” to a very large degree against a range of coronavirus variants.
And until then, he said that new vaccination programs and booster shots would be needed.

In the U.K., where the delta variant is now responsible for the bulk of new infections, cases have spiked among young people and the unvaccinated, leading to a rise in hospitalizations in those cohorts.
It’s hoped that Covid-19 vaccination programs can stop the spread of the delta variant and so the race is on to protect younger people who might not be fully vaccinated. 

Analysis from Public Health England released on Monday showed that two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccines are highly effective against hospitalization from the delta variant.

But some vaccines are reported to be less effective against other strains. For example, British Health Secretary Matt Hancock said earlier this month that it has started commercial negotiations with AstraZeneca to secure a variant vaccine — which has been adapted to tackle the variant first discovered in South Africa.

Meanwhile, trials of booster shots are already underway in Britain and there are reports that the population will receive a third shot before winter this year. 

Over 42 million people have had a first dose of a vaccine in Britain — that’s about 80% of the adult population — and over 30 million people have had their second dose.


----------



## rederob (23 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As we speculated early on it is more a flu shot than a vaccine, so boosters will most likely be required annually.



The flu shot* is *a vaccine!
From what is known to date, not a lot is clear about the long term efficacy of a jab, and it's even more complicated given that different variants appear to have markedly different outcomes for the same vaccine.  Just as flu shots cater for many different viral strains of the flu, it may be possible for covid vaccine manufacturers to also incorporate multi strain effectivity.  To date I have only read that "mixing and matching" vaccine *types *(eg inactivated with mRNA) could be a solution to increased efficacy.
A growing concern of virologists is that as lower income nations remain poorly vaccinated, they may give rise to increasingly altered variants of covid and currently available vaccines may prove only marginally effective.  
In the meantime we can only hope that as more nations come closer to herd immunity the chance of worse variants propagating will diminish.


----------



## Humid (23 June 2021)

No money in cures....


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2021)

rederob said:


> The flu shot* is *a vaccine!
> From what is known to date, not a lot is clear about the long term efficacy of a jab, and it's even more complicated given that different variants appear to have markedly different outcomes for the same vaccine.  Just as flu shots cater for many different viral strains of the flu, it may be possible for covid vaccine manufacturers to also incorporate multi strain effectivity.  To date I have only read that "mixing and matching" vaccine *types *(eg inactivated with mRNA) could be a solution to increased efficacy.
> A growing concern of virologists is that as lower income nations remain poorly vaccinated, they may give rise to increasingly altered variants of covid and currently available vaccines may prove only marginally effective.
> In the meantime we can only hope that as more nations come closer to herd immunity the chance of worse variants propagating will diminish.



Spot on Rob, I was making reference to the fact some sections of the media, in the early days were inferring to it as it is applied to something like a polio vaccine, where the one shot is it for life. Whereas we were saying on the forum, it is a virus and as such can and will mutate, as you explained perfectly in your response.


----------



## basilio (23 June 2021)

Sydney is watching the  highly contagious Delta COVID variation take off - but Gladys is still insisting people should be sensible, wear masks and "be careful" - but still go out and enjoy themselves.

Meanwhile SA and WA have simply closed the border to anyone coming from NSW. They are being "sensible and careful" as well.
Vic closed the border last night.

If this gets away in NSW I wonder where it will stop. The overseas experience of this strain spreading rapidly and ruthlessly is daunting.


----------



## wayneL (23 June 2021)

*Official flu and pneumonia deaths now 10x higher than covid in UK









						Flu and pneumonia deaths now 10 times higher than Covid
					

New ONS data reveal that coronavirus deaths now make up just 0.8 per cent of all fatalities, down from 1.3 per cent




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## moXJO (23 June 2021)

basilio said:


> Sydney is watching the  highly contagious Delta COVID variation take off - but Gladys is still insisting people should be sensible, wear masks and "be careful" - but still go out and enjoy themselves.
> 
> Meanwhile SA and WA have simply closed the border to anyone coming from NSW. They are being "sensible and careful" as well.
> Vic closed the border last night.
> ...



See how it goes. We got through the last scare just fine. NSW generally has done an exceptional job of contact tracing. And I have no doubt if the numbers get away they will simply lockdown. It has so far been the hardest working government in keeping things as normal as possible.

Avoiding lockdowns is just as important as saving lives. Billions are lost locking down.


----------



## wayneL (23 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> See how it goes. We got through the last scare just fine. NSW generally has done an exceptional job of contact tracing. And I have no doubt if the numbers get away they will simply lockdown. It has so far been the hardest working government in keeping things as normal as possible.
> 
> Avoiding lockdowns is just as important as saving lives. Billions are lost locking down.



I gather most of the new cases were already in isolation. Can't confirm where I saw that though... but FWIW


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2021)

wayneL said:


> *Official flu and pneumonia deaths now 10x higher than covid in UK
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Isn't pneumonia what you die from, with covid?
So if the pneumonia isn't covid related, what strain of flu is it related to?


----------



## moXJO (24 June 2021)

wayneL said:


> I gather most of the new cases were already in isolation. Can't confirm where I saw that though... but FWIW



This new strain is very contagious. I think there is actually a lot of hidden community infections they are scrambling to trace. If they can't trace it within a certain time frame, they Start implementing harsher restrictions.


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2021)

The search for the origins continue.








						Crucial details on origins of coronavirus pandemic deleted from database
					

The data, which has been rediscovered by an American scientist, appears to show a previously missing stage in the evolution of the virus in humans.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2021)

Sounds like a quarantine site Brisbane airport, is possible.








						Brisbane army barracks near airport proposed by PM as new quarantine hub
					

The Prime Minister proposes an army barracks in Brisbane as a COVID-19 quarantine site, officially killing off the stalled Wellcamp plan near Toowoomba.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Damascus Barracks at Pinkenba, approximately 5 minutes' drive from Brisbane Airport, be considered as a potential quarantine site.
•    Within approximately one hour's vehicle transport to a tertiary hospital

•    Within reasonable proximity to an international airport taking regularly scheduled international commercial passenger flights (with limited bus transfer)

•    Commonwealth owned, to provide an enduring asset to support increased resilience capability.

The Damascus Barracks is approximately 30 hectares in size and is currently being used for the storage and supply of material, according to the Defence Department.

The ABC understands the site would be suitable as a quarantine site as there is empty land on which accommodation can be built.

"The site is of a suitable size and meets the Commonwealth's relevant key assessment criteria including access to an international airport taking regularly scheduled international commercial passenger flights and proximity to a principal referral hospital,"


----------



## qldfrog (25 June 2021)

About mRNA vaccines https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...n-twitter-says-delete-this-1809062-2021-05-31
How can we trust anyone?and how can i or even any government make an informed decision?
If this is not manipulation...
This is what create conspiracy theories
Lies after lies, from origin of virus, real death counts, absence of treatment, there is far too much proven information/facts/ science suppressed.
So obviously any rationally thinking person ask why?


----------



## rederob (25 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Isn't pneumonia what you die from, with covid?
> So if the pneumonia isn't covid related, what strain of flu is it related to?



*It's a contributory factor.  Below is the chart showing comparative numbers:*





The _Telegraph _*omitted *an important fact that very few deaths are *directly *attributed to the flu and pneumonia.


----------



## rederob (25 June 2021)

Here's a strange take on using and abusing science and data, including playing with dates and countbacks:


----------



## moXJO (26 June 2021)

2 week lockdown


----------



## The Triangle (26 June 2021)

Mine in lockdown, 900 workers who have left the site told to isolate after man tests positive to COVID
					

A major gold mine in the Northern Territory is in lockdown and 900 FIFO workers who have left the mine in recent days have been told to isolate after a worker tested positive to COVID-19.




					www.abc.net.au
				




It was only a matter of time until Covid hit the mines.  

_Chief Minister Michael Gunner said the man caught the virus at a quarantine hotel in Brisbane and was potentially infectious between June 18 and 24.

He was allowed to fly on a charter plane to the mine in the Tanami Desert the following day because regional Victoria was not considered a COVID hotspot by NT authorities at that time._

...FFS  Surely putting someone in a quarantine hotel for a short term stay - when we've seen most of our cases are a result of quarantine hotel f-ups is a stupid idea.

BHP and RIO would be soiling themselves right now.


----------



## basilio (27 June 2021)

rederob said:


> Here's a strange take on using and abusing science and data, including playing with dates and countbacks:




Brilliant, terrifying ? Fascinating mixture of  stories that are known about early COVID infections (but long forgotten or ignored) and a presentation style that mixes the seemingly absurd with the directly relevant.  Very cutting satire.


----------



## mullokintyre (27 June 2021)

Before I comment, I need to ensure full disclosure- I have now had both doses of the  AZ Vaccination., and have had zero side effects.
Its probably not all that surprising that since the start of the COVID-19  outbreak, the language has changed significantly. First it was flatten the curve, then it was to reduce prssure on the health system because we had insufficient ventilators.  Then  get the vaccines out, then elimination, I wonder what the next one will be.   The pushing of everyone to get vaccinated has also morphed into a new phase. When the call for vaccinations for the disease went out worldwide, it was rarely  spoken openly about what exactly the vaccine would give us. Most of the general public would have thought that as with so many vaccines (rubella, whooping cough, yellow  fever, tetanus heppatitus B, and maybe even the flu vaccines), it would provide a level of protection against GETTING the disease.  After a while, it came out that the various vacc species  were mainly aimed at reducing the symptoms rather than providing immunity. Some do it better than others, but despite spending an hour or so searching and reading various articles, I am yet to find some definitive answers.
In a slightly alarming admission  in the parliament from the now sacked UK health minister, he said that about 20% of the people who are hospitalised, were fully vaccinated, and a further20% had at least one dose. So 40% of those hospitalised  had at least one dose of the vacc. That is hardly a ringing endorsement.
Most of the health information state that the various vaccines also  help in varying degrees to helping or even  stop the spreading the disease. One of the problems is that so many of the  people who test positive are completely asymptomatic.  We don't know how many of these people had been vaccinated, it seems these stats are not kept. So why do they not show symptoms? Do they already have a level of immunity?  Do they also have reduced rates of shedding and thus are less likely to spread the disease? Again, we don't know, although there are plenty of examples of the so called "super spreaders" who are asymptomatic. This whole thing has been a giant science experiment  with few controls, and even less oversight by those who are supposed to do that job.
But the most scary thing I have heard is the new language that seems to hint that even when we have got everyone vaccinated, there may still be restrictions on travel, gatherings etc.  We may still have to use QR codes to tell the authorities exactly where we are, where we have been, how long we spent there etc. The WA premier has already suggested that once everyone is vaccinated, border permits and restrictions on entry may still be required.
I may have to dust off my anti conscription, anti vietnam war posters to keep the bastards prying into my entire life.
Mick


----------



## basilio (27 June 2021)

This lengthy analysis of the origins of COVID offers food for thought.  In particular the concluding section highlights that COVID was also identified in a number of locations  before being officially noted in Wuhan.

Other studies on the origin of the virus​
In November 2020 a study by Italy's National Cancer Institute about people who were screened for cancer in Lombardy shows that several patients already had covid antibodies in early October 2019 (paper). Quote: "antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%), with a cluster of positive cases (>30%) in the second week of February 2020 and the highest number (53.2%) in Lombardy". Unless there is another explanation for why covid antibodies would arise in people, covid was in Italy in September 2019, three months before the outbreak in Wuhan.
Also in November 2020: A retrospective serological study by the CDC finds that covid antibodies were present in blood samples taken in mid December in several locations of the USA (paper)
Also in November 2020: a study by Libing Shen (Chinese Academy of Sciences), Funan He (Fudan University) and Zhao Zhang (University of Texas at Houston) tried to pinpoint the least mutated genetic strain of the coronavirus, which should be its phylogenetic root. They observed that the Indian subcontinent has the highest strain diversity and estimated that the earliest transmission from an animal to a human host happened in July or August 2019 (paper). According to this study, covid was born somewhere in India in the summer of 2019.
In December 2020 the CDC published a study that found covid in early December 2019 in Italy (paper).
In January 2021 Italian scientists found traces of covid in skin biopsies conducted in Milan in November 2019 (paper).









						Was covid-19 made in Chinese lab? in a US lab?
					





					www.scaruffi.com
				




About Piero








						Piero Scaruffi - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## rederob (27 June 2021)

basilio said:


> This lengthy analysis of the origins of COVID offers food for thought.  In particular the concluding section highlights that COVID was also identified in a number of locations  before being officially noted in Wuhan.
> 
> Other studies on the origin of the virus​
> In November 2020 a study by Italy's National Cancer Institute about people who were screened for cancer in Lombardy shows that several patients already had covid antibodies in early October 2019 (paper). Quote: "antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%), with a cluster of positive cases (>30%) in the second week of February 2020 and the highest number (53.2%) in Lombardy". Unless there is another explanation for why covid antibodies would arise in people, covid was in Italy in September 2019, three months before the outbreak in Wuhan.
> ...



The media focus on an *extremely unlikely lab leak* is just a continuation of the "China bad" syndrome driving the West.
There are many areas of investigation to be followed based on the above details which have evidentiary and scientific bases.  And the above are also consistent with the *WHO *conclusions, one of which was that:

*Analysis of early case genomes also showed some diversity, suggesting additional sources and unrecognized circulation. *
Was Belleville Mayor Michael Melham among the first cases of the new coronavirus in the United States?


There was this, and numerous other articles at the time, but little else subsequently.  Yet if proven true, the virus was in the USA in early November 2019 at the latest.

The WHO origins investigation recommended an ongoing scientific approach, with emphasis on data quality, coverage and sharing in order hone in on precisely where and how the pandemic began.


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2021)

rederob said:


> The media focus on an *extremely unlikely lab leak* is just a continuation of the "China bad" syndrome driving the West.



China had a lab leak before and they covered it up. It's a plausible possibility considering they just happened to have the lab in the area. Scrubbing data and locking up whistle blowers didn't help.


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2021)

Singapore has decided to open everything after the vaccinations are finished and open borders. Obviously it's learn to live with it, eradication ain't happening any time soon.


----------



## bellenuit (27 June 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Before I comment, I need to ensure full disclosure- I have now had both doses of the  AZ Vaccination., and have had zero side effects.
> Its probably not all that surprising that since the start of the COVID-19  outbreak, the language has changed significantly. First it was flatten the curve, then it was to reduce prssure on the health system because we had insufficient ventilators.  Then  get the vaccines out, then elimination, I wonder what the next one will be.   The pushing of everyone to get vaccinated has also morphed into a new phase. When the call for vaccinations for the disease went out worldwide, it was rarely  spoken openly about what exactly the vaccine would give us. Most of the general public would have thought that as with so many vaccines (rubella, whooping cough, yellow  fever, tetanus heppatitus B, and maybe even the flu vaccines), it would provide a level of protection against GETTING the disease.  After a while, it came out that the various vacc species  were mainly aimed at reducing the symptoms rather than providing immunity. Some do it better than others, but despite spending an hour or so searching and reading various articles, I am yet to find some definitive answers.
> In a slightly alarming admission  in the parliament from the now sacked UK health minister, he said that about 20% of the people who are hospitalised, were fully vaccinated, and a further20% had at least one dose. So 40% of those hospitalised  had at least one dose of the vacc. That is hardly a ringing endorsement.
> Most of the health information state that the various vaccines also  help in varying degrees to helping or even  stop the spreading the disease. One of the problems is that so many of the  people who test positive are completely asymptomatic.  We don't know how many of these people had been vaccinated, it seems these stats are not kept. So why do they not show symptoms? Do they already have a level of immunity?  Do they also have reduced rates of shedding and thus are less likely to spread the disease? Again, we don't know, although there are plenty of examples of the so called "super spreaders" who are asymptomatic. This whole thing has been a giant science experiment  with few controls, and even less oversight by those who are supposed to do that job.
> ...




I find your analysis completely at odds with what I have been reading on sites other than those populated by anti-vaxxers.

I am not going to go through each point, but some are obviously putting a negative spin where none is needed. Such as your description of the change in the language of the vaccine/virus. it was a new virus and the authorities were trying to understand it. Of course the language changes between the start of the outbreaks, when only a few were infected, to when large numbers were being infected and the risk to the hospital system became enormous. Later as the vaccines become developed and deployed, a different narrative was needed.

Regarding your comment on the alarming admission by the sacked Health Minister that 40% of hospital admissions had at least one jab of the vaccine, these seems at odds with what is really happening:
Hospital Covid admissions after jab 'very, very small'​
_The study analysed a quarter of all hospital patients in England, Scotland and Wales between early December and early April, and is one of the first to look at the impact of vaccinations on the numbers of people subsequently admitted to hospital with Covid-19.
It suggests that around 1% of hospital admissions between December and April were of people with Covid who had already had one vaccine dose.

The study found higher numbers of Covid hospital admissions around the time of vaccination and soon after, before the jab had started to work. Admissions then tailed off as protection from the vaccine built up._

You didn't say whether the ex-Minister was referring to hospital admissions in general or to those admitted with Covid. The latter is inconsistent to the BBC report (and that is just one of many indicating the COVID admission stats in relation to those vaccinated), but if the former, then that is to be expected as the number of those who have at least received one jab in the UK is around the 40% mark, if not more.

_Most of the health information state that the various vaccines also  help in varying degrees to helping or even  stop the spreading the disease. One of the problems is that so many of the  people who test positive are completely asymptomatic.  We don't know how many of these people had been vaccinated, it seems these stats are not kept._

Who told you that. They do know how many of those who test positive and are asymptomatic were vaccinated. It is a constant monitoring process and there are many studies related to the issue, such as this.

*Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey technical article: analysis of positivity after vaccination, June 2021*





__





						Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey technical article - Office for National Statistics
					

This analysis provides data about positivity after vaccination from the Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey. This analysis has been produced in partnership with University of Oxford.



					www.ons.gov.uk
				




The results are in. We do know the vaccines are very effective when combined with other preventative measures. UK and US results demonstrate that. Breakouts have in large been due to relaxation of the other preventative measures too soon.

I don't understand the gist of your post. Is you opening disclosure statement just there to pretend you are not an anti-vaxxer, but then you follow up by posting a lot of misleading information on the topic? Are you complaining because we don't know everything about this disease and its ability to create new variants that in turn have to be learned about.  Of course mistakes will be made along the way, but that is the nature of anything that involves unknowns mixed with politics.


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I find your analysis completely at odds with what I have been reading on sites other than those populated by anti-vaxxers.
> 
> I am not going to go through each point, but some are obviously putting a negative spin where none is needed. Such as your description of the change in the language of the vaccine/virus. it was a new virus and the authorities were trying to understand it. Of course the language changes between the start of the outbreaks, when only a few were infected, to when large numbers were being infected and the risk to the hospital system became enormous. Later as the vaccines become developed and deployed, a different narrative was needed.
> 
> ...



A lot of vaccines need a booster now the delta variant is running. J&J was one of them I think. All vaccines could be rendered ineffective if it mutates enough. I think there are 15-17 mutations at the moment in India. Delta plus is the one they are currently testing against vaccines (don't quote me on that). 

In any case the vaccine will reduce symptoms. Better to be caught vaccinated then not. You don't want to find out that you are one of the smaller % that need hospitalisation. 

I'm not one for getting vaccinations either. Covid mutations is one of those things I'd rather be prepared for.


----------



## IFocus (27 June 2021)

New COVID-19 restrictions for Perth and Peel regions​Some of the restrictions include:



> "A 30-person limit in all homes for private gatherings. Hospitality, entertainment venues including casino, retail, beauty and hairdressers, recreation centres, including gyms, Pilates, yoga, dance and swimming pools and places of worship can remain open but must comply with the two square metre rule with a maximum of 150 patrons," Mr Cook said.
> "Community sport is permitted. Wedding and funerals can proceed but will be limited to a maximum of 150. Hospitals with a maximum of four visitors permitted per patient, per day.
> "Mask wearing will be mandatory for staff and visitors. Anyone who enters a regional area from the Perth Peel region is required to wear a mask. Travel to remote Aboriginal communities will be restricted."


----------



## The Triangle (27 June 2021)

IFocus said:


> New COVID-19 restrictions for Perth and Peel regions​Some of the restrictions include:



Pretty simple solution.  Stop the airplanes and use the military for quarantine - not uber drivers.


----------



## cynic (27 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Isn't pneumonia what you die from, with covid?
> So if the pneumonia isn't covid related, what strain of flu is it related to?



Pneumacoccal perhaps?!


----------



## mullokintyre (28 June 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I find your analysis completely at odds with what I have been reading on sites other than those populated by anti-vaxxers.
> 
> I am not going to go through each point, but some are obviously putting a negative spin where none is needed. Such as your description of the change in the language of the vaccine/virus. it was a new virus and the authorities were trying to understand it. Of course the language changes between the start of the outbreaks, when only a few were infected, to when large numbers were being infected and the risk to the hospital system became enormous. Later as the vaccines become developed and deployed, a different narrative was needed.
> 
> ...



The report I  was quoting is from a video of a response by the minister to questions asked in the UK Parliament. You can see the whole video HERE . The attached report to the video distinctly states that the question relates to "covid" hospitalisations. I guess he could be lying, he is after all a politician. But I can only quote what he said. The report said the question occured on June 21 st parliamentary sitting, so I would assume the polly would be quoting most recent stats. An anti vaxxer would jump on those figures and say they were reactions to the vaccine, but if that was the case, the figures would be 100 percent. But the reading I took was that these were people who had the vaccine, either one dose or two, but still managed to get Covid and have sufficiently bad enough symptoms to require hospitalisation.  If there is another way to read the statements he made, I would be happy to hear that.
Sticking pejorative names on people is a weak way to prosecute an argument.
I am not an anti vaxer, my spouse is a Pharmacist who is a qualified vaccinator, and two of my children work in allied health. 
What I have learned from them is that  the media are the worst source   of health/medical information on earth. 
Can you tell me where are the stats on the people testing positive to the disease who had one or more shots of a vax? I can't find it, but that does not mean the stats do not exist. However, how many asymptomatic people don't  ever get tested? We really don't know, and will never know unless every single person is tested at least twice per week. 
You state that vaccines are very effective when combined with other preventative measures.  The question that is never asked is, what if there was no vaxx and they just did the preventative measures?  How would the measures stack up?
As to the other points,   the gist of my post is that authorities around the world seem to be using the pandemic as a means to put even greater control on our lives than there already is. You are quite entitled to disagree with that.
Mick


----------



## rederob (28 June 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Can you tell me where are the stats on the people testing positive to the disease who had one or more shots of a vax?



That was tabled separately in  @bellenuit's  linked report.
Main points​
The risk of identifying a new infection following vaccination was highest during the first 21 days after the first vaccination, after that the risk strongly decreased.
Those who became infected post vaccination were less likely to have symptoms and less likely to have a high viral load compared with individuals who tested positive but have not been vaccinated.

View attachment 126714


Using this data as a base, getting the AZ jab first in Oz is about 3 times more effective until both doses are received.  
After 2 doses it doesn't matter which vaccine brand as the chance of a positive test outcome is one in a thousand.


----------



## mullokintyre (28 June 2021)

rederob said:


> That was tabled separately in  @bellenuit's  linked report.
> Main points​
> The risk of identifying a new infection following vaccination was highest during the first 21 days after the first vaccination, after that the risk strongly decreased.
> Those who became infected post vaccination were less likely to have symptoms and less likely to have a high viral load compared with individuals who tested positive but have not been vaccinated.
> ...



Thanks, the only concern I might have is that the article uses a model to show these rates of declining infection. I don't know why they just don't use actual data rather than trying to model it, but time will tell how accurate their modeling is. Lets hope its significantly better than the models used by Niall Ferguson in the very early stages of the pandemic.
Mick


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 June 2021)

wenz a virus funny, never, um, but when in oz do what the whacky do


----------



## wayneL (28 June 2021)

Sitting in my truck, in a semi rural spot (outside Perth metro), doing a few texts and trolling idiots on Tw@tter...

Guy drives in, wearing a mask in his car, gets out, takes off the face nappy, and lights up a cigarette... Gets back in his car, puts the face nappy on and drives off.

wayneL starts Googling caves for sale in central Australia..,


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 June 2021)

Sydney in lockdown, borders shut and hardly anyone vaccinated. How long can Australia go on like this?
					

In the window of a vintage shop in the Sydney suburb of Annandale, a sign expresses the frustration of many Australians with their country's pandemic strategy.




					edition.cnn.com
				




Scovid makes CNN, onya


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 June 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> wenz a virus funny, never, um, but when in oz do what the whacky do




best part of that vid is Joe O'brien with a frantic cut signal at the end


----------



## wayneL (28 June 2021)

Barnum and Bailey never imagined the clown world we all now live in.

Coulrophobia turns out to be quite rational.


----------



## macca (28 June 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The report I  was quoting is from a video of a response by the minister to questions asked in the UK Parliament. You can see the whole video HERE . The attached report to the video distinctly states that the question relates to "covid" hospitalisations. I guess he could be lying, he is after all a politician. But I can only quote what he said. The report said the question occured on June 21 st parliamentary sitting, so I would assume the polly would be quoting most recent stats. An anti vaxxer would jump on those figures and say they were reactions to the vaccine, but if that was the case, the figures would be 100 percent. But the reading I took was that these were people who had the vaccine, either one dose or two, but still managed to get Covid and have sufficiently bad enough symptoms to require hospitalisation.  If there is another way to read the statements he made, I would be happy to hear that.
> Sticking pejorative names on people is a weak way to prosecute an argument.
> I am not an anti vaxer, my spouse is a Pharmacist who is a qualified vaccinator, and two of my children work in allied health.
> What I have learned from them is that  the media are the worst source   of health/medical information on earth.
> ...




These are the official UK figures on June 11 2021,

If you look at table 6 on page 15 it has the breakup of who was vaccinated and who was not from those attending the hospital.

If you calculate the rate of deaths as a percentage it is scary

PDF attached


----------



## mullokintyre (28 June 2021)

Two pieces of news from their ABC.
1. The birthday party where the so called "super spreader" infected24 of the 30m people who attended a party. The six who did not get infected, all had been vaccinated. Chalk a big one up for the VAX. see ABC NEWS
2. From The Australian The head of the Defence Covid-19 task force,  Lt Gen JJohn Frewen said that


> he expected Australians would have to live for years with restrictions being introduced in response to outbreaks.
> 
> Lieutenant Frewen said the aim was to save lives from the diseases and Australians needed to become comfortable with the prospect of public health measures being activated and deactivated.
> 
> “We will be living with Covid for many years and I think all of these measures we can expect to be activated and deactivated,” he said.



It is the second part that worries me. I do not like unelected bureaucrats making policy pronouncements, no matter how smart they are. They provide advice to elected officials, thats where their role should stop. It conveniently allows the  elected ones to  deflect any blame when things go pear shaped. 
I find the language used most intriguing.  "needing to become comfortable  with the prospect of public health measures being activated and deactivated", is NOT what I want to hear. Softening the suckers up is what he is really saying.
It also reinforces my original fears that the COVID will be used to make ever more restrictive rules and regs for citizens.
Micki


----------



## bellenuit (28 June 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The report I  was quoting is from a video of a response by the minister to questions asked in the UK Parliament. You can see the whole video HERE . The attached report to the video distinctly states that the question relates to "covid" hospitalisations. I guess he could be lying, he is after all a politician.




I have followed your link and I do not see anywhere where he is specifically referring to COVID hospitalisations, other than the article from that Off-Guardian.org website. In fact if you go back to the parliamentary records, this is the question from Liam Fox that he is responding to:

"Can my right hon. Friend give us a little more information about the rise in hospitalisations that he mentioned?"









						Coronavirus
					

– in the House of Commons at 3:16 pm 16th June 2021




					www.theyworkforyou.com
				




Although it precedes the parliamentary debate by a few weeks, this is the most recent quote from Matt Hancock that address those being hospitalised due to COVID (specifically the Delta variant which accounts for 91% of cases)

_Just 2 per cent of those hospitalised in England with the Delta variant of coronavirus first identified in India had received both doses of a vaccine, the government revealed on Monday.

Health secretary Matt Hancock told the House of Commons that out of 12,383 cases of the Delta variant recorded until June 3, 126 were in hospital, or just 1 per cent. Of those admitted, 83 were unvaccinated, 28 had received one jab and just three had had both doses. “The jabs are working,” Hancock said._





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				




Even if one were to say things have deteriorated in the few weeks since that statistic was put out and Hancock's speech to parliament (assuming he is taking about COVID hospitalisations), your position is quite clear from the way you phrased the results from the story: _So 40% of those hospitalised had at least one dose of the vacc. That is hardly a ringing endorsement_. It is a ringing endorsement. Those with one dose have to be excluded as it takes time for the vaccine to start protection and the protection from just one dose after that time is nowhere near what the vaccine can do. So your chance off needing hospitalisation after being fully vaccinate is 20%. There is nothing wrong with that. And it is not just hospitalisation, but the severity of the symptoms of those hospitalised which we know are far less for the fully vaccinated. Having 80% less hospitalised following full vaccination is a very successful outcome.

_Can you tell me where are the stats on the people testing positive to the disease who had one or more shots of a vax?_

Well you haven't tried very hard. I just typed this into Google: _percentage of vaccinated testing positive for covid_

This is just the first result presented. Continue reading the Google results for more.

COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Case Investigation and Reporting​




__





						COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC
					

Information and resources to help public health departments and laboratories investigate and report COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough cases.




					www.cdc.gov
				




_However, how many asymptomatic people don't  ever get tested? We really don't know, and will never know unless every single person is tested at least twice per week._

That is not how it works. It is not feasible to test everyone twice a week as you should well know. That is why the CDC does both closed and open trials where a specific population of vaccinated people are tested extensively over a particular period. They then extrapolate from those results.

COVID-19 Vaccine Effectiveness Research​




__





						COVID-19 Vaccine Effectiveness Research  | CDC
					

Learn about planned evaluations to assess COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness and protocols that detail the evaluation designs.




					www.cdc.gov
				




From that site:

_Such evaluations will help us understand if vaccines are performing as expected outside the more controlled setting of a clinical trial. As vaccine uptake increases nationally, we will also try to understand how well the vaccines:

Perform in specific subpopulations
*Reduce the risk of infection (including infection without symptoms)*
Protect against milder COVID-19 illness
Prevent more serious outcomes, including hospitalization
Prevent spread of illness (e.g., whether people who have been vaccinated can still spread COVID-19 to others)
Provide long-term protection (i.e., assess duration of protection)
Protect against changes in the virus (new variants)
Protect against COVID-19 when the vaccine is administered using a single dose or when the second dose is delayed, if these dosing regimens occur under real-world conditions


You state that vaccines are very effective when combined with other preventative measures.  The question that is never asked is, what if there was no vaxx and they just did the preventative measures?  How would the measures stack up?_

The question is asked and the answer is known. The preventative measures (wearing masks, social distancing etc) are applied nationwide. In addition, depending on the country, an increasing number of that population is being vaccinated. So you have two distinct groups (though one is increasing and one decreasing). Group one: no vaxx but with preventative measures. Group two: vaxxed and with preventative measures. The results are in on that. Do we need to show you the figures again. Even your interpretation of the Hancock speech gives you an answer.

_the gist of my post is that authorities around the world seem to be using the pandemic as a means to put even greater control on our lives than there already is. _

Your post is straight out of the Off-Guardian.Org playbook.


----------



## mullokintyre (28 June 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I have followed your link and I do not see anywhere where he is specifically referring to COVID hospitalisations, other than the article from that Off-Guardian.org website. In fact if you go back to the parliamentary records, this is the question from Liam Fox that he is responding to:
> 
> "Can my right hon. Friend give us a little more information about the rise in hospitalisations that he mentioned?"
> 
> ...



I went looking for the official records of the UK parliament for that day, (see UK Parliament records but could not find anything At the risk of being picky, the "theyworkforyou" URL id not an official record, but that of a registered charity that may or may not be accurate. But let us assume it is. Liam Fox was responding to the opening statement of the (then) health minister. which is the very first entry.
He says 


> Unfortunately, there has been a significant change since we started on our journey down the road map in February. A new variant has given the virus extra legs, both because it spreads more easily and because there is some evidence that the risk of hospitalisation is higher than for the alpha variant, which was, of course, previously dominant in this country. The delta variant now accounts for 96% of new cases. The number of cases is rising and hospitalisations are starting to rise, too—they are up 48% over the past week. The number of deaths in England is thankfully not rising and remains very low, but, as I told the House on Monday, we do not yet know the extent to which the link between hospitalisations and deaths has been broken, so we propose to give the NHS a few more crucial weeks to get those remaining jabs into the arms of those who need them.



This is the statement that Liam Fox is referring to in his question. Like the author of the OFFguardian article, I interpreted the above statement  to mean he is specifically referring to covid hospitalisations.
You are entitled to read a different  meaning to it. What I read is that the death rate has stabilised, maybe even gone down, which is good.
As to your interpretation of whether there is nothing wrong with a 20% hospitalisation rate  after being fully vaccinated , well once again its a matter of interpretation.  Given the response here in OZ to the  AZ vax where a very small proportion of people develop blood clots and the over the top reaction to an 8 in a million chance of getting a blood clot, if we get 20% of people getting hospitalised after a double dos eof the vax all hell will break loose.
Mick


----------



## bellenuit (28 June 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> if we get 20% of people getting hospitalised after a double dos eof the vax all hell will break loose.




But that is not what that figure is saying. It is not saying that 20% of people who are fully vaccinated end up hospitalised, but that of those hospitalised only 20% have been fully vaccinated. The way you are phrasing it is suggesting that 20% of the hospitalisations are caused by the vaccine, where in fact if it wasn't for the vaccine, there would be 2.2 times more hospitalised. It is like saying that if 20% of politicians are women, then 20% of women are politicians.

Using rough figures, the adult population of the UK is 54m of which 32.5m have been fully vaccinated. That is 60%. If full vaccination offered no protection against hospitalisation compared to no vaccination, then we would expect 60% of hospitalisations due to COVID to be of fully vaccinated people. But the figures (using your figures from above) show that only 20% of fully vaccinated people end up hospitalised.

So for every 100 people hospitalised, 80 of those represent 40% of the people (the unvaccinated and partially vaccinated). The other 60% are fully vaccinated, but if they too were not fully vaccinated, we would expect 120 more hospitalisations instead of the just 20 more. So that figure of 100 would be 220 if no one was fully vaccinated, 2.2 times more.

Looking at this another way, the vaccines (full) effectively reduce your chances of being hospitalised by 83% (20/120). Although these are very rough back of the envelope figures, they are in line with actual results seen to date.

*The Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is 92% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses*









						Vaccines highly effective against hospitalisation from Delta variant
					

New analysis by PHE shows for the first time that 2 doses of COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective against hospitalisation from the Delta (B.1.617.2) variant.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## mullokintyre (28 June 2021)

bellenuit said:


> But that is not what that figure is saying. It is not saying that 20% of people who are fully vaccinated end up hospitalised, but that of those hospitalised only 20% have been fully vaccinated. The way you are phrasing it is suggesting that 20% of the hospitalisations are caused by the vaccine, where in fact if it wasn't for the vaccine, there would be 2.2 times more hospitalised. It is like saying that if 20% of politicians are women, then 20% of women are politicians.
> 
> Using rough figures, the adult population of the UK is 54m of which 32.5m have been fully vaccinated. That is 60%. If full vaccination offered no protection against hospitalisation compared to no vaccination, then we would expect 60% of hospitalisations due to COVID to be of fully vaccinated people. But the figures (using your figures from above) show that only 20% of fully vaccinated people end up hospitalised.
> 
> ...



My apologies, I should have phrased it better.
If the general population works out that 20% of the people hospitalised with covid symptoms have been vaccinated, all hell will break loose.
As I said, if people are getting uptight about the extremely small chances of getting blood clots,  that figure will cause some serious issues. Its a moot point as to whether it is warranted, but it will cause problems none the less.
Perhaps  the issue is confined to the UK.
The US seems to have about 0.01% of fully vaccinated people getting  what they call breakthrough cases. ( see Huff Post ).
The problem is, no on really knows just how many people get covid after being vaxed and are asymptomatic, unless they decide to get tested. And of course, they are not going to get tested unless they have symptoms. According to the article I quoted, the CDC have stopped counting the people who get covid after being vaccinated, only those who get hospitalised. 
But the biggest problem I see is that even if you get the dual jab, you are still subject to all the lockdowns, travel restrictions, border closures etc etc. People who have any doubts about the various vaccines are  going to ask why bother, if I get vaccinated and still subject to all the restrictions.
Mick


----------



## bellenuit (29 June 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> If the general population works out that 20% of the people hospitalised with covid symptoms have been vaccinated, all hell will break loose.



Why? I really believe you do not understand what the data means.

As more and more people are being vaccinated, hospitalisations are decreasing (although there seems to have been a recent upturn in UK data that needs to be analysed). But if we take countries like the US, the trend is obvious:







It's hard to read directly off the chart, but the figures seem to be about 16,000 hospitalisations per day at the peak, down to 2,000 per day currently (in fact the most recent figure is 1,843). But the important point, which you do not seem to understand, is that *as the percentage of the people fully vaccinated increases, the percentage of people hospitalised due to Covid that have been vaccinated increases*. The only reason all hell should break loose is if people do not understand what the figures mean.

Prior to commencement of vaccinations, 0% of hospital admissions due to Covid were of vaccinated people. If, though unlikely, 100% of people get fully vaccinated, there will still be hospitalisations due to breakthrough cases, but when that happens, 100% of hospital admissions due to Covid will be of vaccinated people. Between these two extremes, the percentage of hospitalisations where the patient is fully vaccinated increases as the percentage of people being fully vaccinated increases. That is just mathematics.

The important thing is not the relative percentage of hospitalisations where the patient is vaccinated or not, but the absolute number of hospitalisations. That is decreasing due to vaccinations as the above chart shows. The figure that you think is going to cause hell to break loose is just a mathematical byproduct of the changing population percentages that each group makes up.

_The problem is, no on really knows just how many people get covid after being vaxed and are asymptomatic, unless they decide to get tested._

Here we go again. I have given you links that show that the CDC are specifically looking at asymptomatic cases post vaccination. You do not need to test the whole population several times post vaccination to get reliable results. Sample testing is sufficient. I mean isn't that what the science of statistics is about.









						COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Infections Reported to CDC ...
					

COVID-19 vaccines are a critical tool for controlling the ongoing global pandemic.




					www.cdc.gov
				




_A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 40–74 years). *Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died.* Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 71–89 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern,§ including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%)._


----------



## moXJO (29 June 2021)

I'm interested in the figures coming out of India. They were testing against the vaccines and it should be out in 5 days or so.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 June 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Why? I really believe you do not understand what the data means.
> 
> As more and more people are being vaccinated, hospitalisations are decreasing (although there seems to have been a recent upturn in UK data that needs to be analysed). But if we take countries like the US, the trend is obvious:
> 
> ...



Ok, I guess I got it all wrong then.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2021)

The covid outbreak has certainly been keenly watched by the mining companies, the fifo debate has been heating up lately, since the NT outbreak.
I love the picture of the inside of the fifo plane, I mean really that can't be helping global warming? It must take three times as many planes to move the workers. 
I wonder if @Humid is in the picture?😂
I really don't know who thought fifo was a good idea, looking at the unhappy faces on the blokes, I'd say it was their wives.  








						Perth lockdown proves need for regional FIFO workforce, mayor says
					

The resources sector was asked to pause the movement of all but critical FIFO workers in and out of Perth, but mine site flights are operating as per usual in some parts of regional WA.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:


----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2021)

And now on cue we have the State Governments starting to crank up the stupid rhetoric, which helps no one, jeez maybe getting rid of State Governements isn't a bad idea.
When anything gets hard, they blame the Federal Government, when everything is going well they take the credit.
How is this for bad form.LOL
Considering the States are administering the vaccines, even I find the statement a show of how shallow politicians are IMO, jeez when there wasn't a problem I'll take the credit as soon as an issue arises lets fling $hit. 🤪 🤣
Blind Freddy knows no one wants the astrazeneca shot, but Morrison said it is there if someone wants it, now it is reported as mass vaccination centres being set up to push them through. FFS how people can vote for this sort of nonsense is mindboggling.
Also probably the reason we are going to streaming movies, you can overdose on the crap free to air social engineering 24/7, for only so long.
I mean really that headline, would scream out z grade movie plot, but she is a very popular politician it kind of  says where Australia is going IMO, sad really.
I'm just grateful W.A has a lucid,keep it simple, keep it straight Premier. 👍









						Qld Premier falsely claims PM planned mass vaccination centres for under 40s to get AstraZeneca
					

The federal government said Annastacia Palaszczuk’s claims were “absolutely incorrect”.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk has claimed that the federal government was planning to establish mass vaccination centres to administer AstraZeneca vaccines to under 40s.


----------



## IFocus (1 July 2021)

SP the state governments are actually doing all the work Morrison SFA, seriously.

This out break really exposes the lack of vaccination in Australia we are bottom of the OCD the state premiers are looking to off load the heat even Gladys and her ministers are crying out.

By any measure its a dogs breakfast 730 tonight could not interview Morrison / Hunt / federal bureaucrats wonder why?


----------



## wayneL (1 July 2021)

How much do you really know about covid? Take this quiz









						COVID-19 Quiz
					

How much do you really know about the pandemic? Take our five-minute quiz and test your knowledge.




					www.hartgroup.org
				




I did pretty well, but surprised at a couple of things I got wrong.


----------



## Humid (1 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> And now on cue we have the State Governments starting to crank up the stupid rhetoric, which helps no one, jeez maybe getting rid of State Governements isn't a bad idea.
> When anything gets hard, they blame the Federal Government, when everything is going well they take the credit.
> How is this for bad form.LOL
> Considering the States are administering the vaccines, even I find the statement a show of how shallow politicians are IMO, jeez when there wasn't a problem I'll take the credit as soon as an issue arises lets fling $hit. 🤪 🤣
> ...



All because a lack of vaccines the rest is politics


----------



## Humid (1 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The covid outbreak has certainly been keenly watched by the mining companies, the fifo debate has been heating up lately, since the NT outbreak.
> I love the picture of the inside of the fifo plane, I mean really that can't be helping global warming? It must take three times as many planes to move the workers.
> I wonder if @Humid is in the picture?😂
> I really don't know who thought fifo was a good idea, looking at the unhappy faces on the blokes, I'd say it was their wives.
> ...





sptrawler said:


> The covid outbreak has certainly been keenly watched by the mining companies, the fifo debate has been heating up lately, since the NT outbreak.
> I love the picture of the inside of the fifo plane, I mean really that can't be helping global warming? It must take three times as many planes to move the workers.
> I wonder if @Humid is in the picture?😂
> I really don't know who thought fifo was a good idea, looking at the unhappy faces on the blokes, I'd say it was their wives.
> ...



Great in theory but they have no idea as most mines are no where near towns.
They run 2 x12 hour shifts so you need to live close to the mine to handover to the next shift.
I was staying at South Flank and travelling 2 hours each way to Newman for a shut.....getting payed watching movies on the bus.
Duty of care 
Fatigue management blah blah


----------



## Humid (1 July 2021)

Planes have been flying full of hivis hobos for 8 months


----------



## wayneL (6 July 2021)

Jeez, no wonder some people are terrified! Project fear has been very effective


----------



## mullokintyre (6 July 2021)

According the ABS, Australia   had  about 158,000 deaths in 2018, 169,000 in 2019,  but only 141,000 deaths in 2020.
The 2020 figure is almost the same as that of 2009.  Flu and  pneumonia deaths were down by 36%, deaths due to respiratory disease down by 16%. So despite the panic about the pandemic,  there was a significant decrease in deaths in population.
So what were we worried about?
I was thinking about the fear of people and trying to relate it to shark attacks.
Australia has on average, 1 fatal death from shark attacks per year.
So far in 2021, we have had our one death for the year, so surfers should be fine for a while.
That person was a young surfer in Queenland. I am yet to hear Palaszczuk or Jeanette Young suggest that young surfers should not go in the water.
The TGA report (covid  vaccine report TGA ) has one death from TTS (aka blood clots) in OZ so far this year. On a par with shark attacks.
THE TGA report says that so far, there have been 33 reported cases of TTS.  21 have recovered, nine still in hospital. I presume the discrepancy in numbers is die to some not being hospitalised at all.
There have been a tad over 21 million tests for COVID  nationally. Of those tests, 0.1% have been positive.
Edited.
I forgot to mention that we have 81 hospitalised cases.
Be interesting to know how that compares to the Flu hospitalisations this year versus a "normal" year.
Mick


----------



## The Triangle (7 July 2021)

There’s yet another COVID strain spreading. Here’s what you should know about the Lambda variant
					

The World Health Organization (WHO) has added the COVID Lambda variant to its list of coronavirus variants of interest, meaning it could be more contagious.



					fortune.com
				




Only a matter of time until the next variant came up.  The Gamma, the Kappa, the Omega.   By this time next year we'll be on the Phi-Beta-Epsilon variant.  

Instead of the excrement that run the media and our governments injecting us with fear they should be inspiring our researchers to cure this sino-american made (IMO) disease.


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2021)

The Triangle said:


> There’s yet another COVID strain spreading. Here’s what you should know about the Lambda variant
> 
> 
> The World Health Organization (WHO) has added the COVID Lambda variant to its list of coronavirus variants of interest, meaning it could be more contagious.
> ...



I think you pretty well nailed it.  
I don't want the virus, I don't want the vaccine, but I do want to travel.
It is a shame the Governments of the world can't be honest and tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
They know a lot more than they are saying as we have said since the beginning of the virus, there has never been an explanation for the never before seen over reaction, when it was supposedly just another SARs type virus.


----------



## wayneL (9 July 2021)

Fun fact in the current context:

There 15 deaths and 430 hospitisations in Australia, on average, *every single day* in the Australian Reich.

Another fun fact, there are on average 1.5 million deaths every single year still, from tuberculosis.

That is without even considering heart disease and whatnot from preventably poor diet.

...and the transmission Is all down to *Marketing*... Interestingly something Plato alerted us to nearly 2500 years ago.


----------



## bellenuit (9 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Fun fact in the current context:
> 
> There 15 deaths and 430 hospitisations in Australia, on average, *every single day* in the Australian Reich.
> 
> ...




The issue isn't how many die each year from different causes, so why all the angst over COVID. It is that if left unchecked, COVID deaths could grow exponentially and spawn mutations that may not be treatable. They number of COVID deaths in Australia are low because we did something about it early on.


----------



## wayneL (9 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> The issue isn't how many die each year from different causes, so why all the angst over COVID. It is that if left unchecked, COVID deaths could grow exponentially and spawn mutations that may not be treatable. They number of COVID deaths in Australia are low because we did something about it early on.



Another fun fact.

Average age of covid death in Aus is 86, as opposed to the average life expectancy of 82.

The inconvenient fact is that people die from all sorts of things, grog, heart disease, injury, cancer, etc.

TBH, my chance of dying from covid is probably a hell of a lot less from (given my job and lifestyle) a kick in the head from a horse or other head injuries, cancer... mesothelioma (or similar) particularly, vehicle accident (50,000 km per year), cirrhosis... Or a hundred other things.

Meanwhile, you bedwetters are preventing ordinary folks from having a normal lifestyle. This is in resulting in all sorts other pathology and mental illness malady.

in the past I have struggled with mental illness issues as I have detailed on this forum. I am recovered from that, but for the first time in my life I have chosen a hill to actually die on, because this life as proposed by our fascist overlords is not worth living.


----------



## bellenuit (9 July 2021)

Covid-19 vaccines saved nearly 280,000 lives in the US, new research estimates​








						Covid-19 vaccines saved nearly 280,000 lives in the US, new research estimates
					

Covid-19 vaccines saved hundreds of thousands of lives and prevented more than a million hospitalizations in the United States, according to new estimates from researchers at Yale University and the Commonwealth Fund.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## rederob (9 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think you pretty well nailed it.
> I don't want the virus, I don't want the vaccine, but I do want to travel.
> It is a shame the Governments of the world can't be honest and tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
> They know a lot more than they are saying as we have said since the beginning of the virus, there has never been an explanation for the never before seen over reaction, when it was supposedly just another SARs type virus.



SARS-CoV-2 is the second iteration of SARS, so it *is* "another SARs type virus".
It is much more infectious although it has about the same case fatality rate. 
I have no idea what you think the government is hiding, except maybe some extra doses of vaccine it seems able to roll out when called for.
We have had a window on the rest of the world in terms of how covid can rip through nations and destroy GDP, especially when lax measures at mitigation prevail.
The longer covid is globally rampant, the more clades/variants it will spawn, as noted below:




And as we know, these vary in terms of most susceptible age groups, symptoms, infectiousness, and case fatality rate.  
Those posting here and thinking covid is similar to the flu are completely mistaken.  The medical evidence is overwhelming on this point.
However, the greater problem may to prove to be "long covid".  In the UK extrapolated data suggest as many as 2 million have suffered or are still suffering symptoms.  That's a huge additional burden on public health systems and also on the workforce.


----------



## sptrawler (9 July 2021)

Agree completely with you @rederob, what I have a concern with is, how the Governments of the World reacted in such a major way, in the very early stages of the outbreak.
As you say it is very similar to the first SARs strain, yet the reaction by the Governments was far more severe and immediate, so did they know this was a much more dangerous strain?  Was it just a good guess? Or was it an over reaction?


----------



## qldfrog (10 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Agree completely with you @rederob, what I have a concern with is, how the Governments of the World reacted in such a major way, in the very early stages of the outbreak.
> As you say it is very similar to the first SARs strain, yet the reaction by the Governments was far more severe and immediate, so did they know this was a much more dangerous strain?  Was it just a good guess? Or was it an over reaction?



Or did they just get reasonably scared that a virus escaping from a lab could be a bioweapon, then when real death rates ended not too big a deal,they switch into using it as a tool: 
Reset as trademarked in Davoz.
It worked wonderfully: 38% of aussies believes they are at risk.. yet in France when 10 of thousands died at the beginning when we had no treatment, and the virus widespread, the average age of Covid death is still in the 80's and above the live expectancy.
Delta variant spreading faster..but less deadly..both facts,how often do you hear both points. Etc
But here, even this week,we have reasonably educated people gobbling propaganda and repeating it as truth.they will be saved by the so called vaccines.
Worse,they fight the battle,like the good anti trump soldiers of a couple of years ago. Tools of the higher masters
A pathetic reflection on an educational system where critical thinking and statistical numeracy has disappeared.. or was not there in the first place?.
So here we are post covid,the new world..the one world with universal income and socialism heaven...
No borders for migrants but you can not visit your family in the neighbouring state.(US, Europe)
Flying is bad so you stay home and be sure not to see what's happening elsewhere 
in case you can compare or realise the BS force fed to you does not match.
Unless you are from the elite obviously. With record provate jetting last year...
 But no more peons travelling around.. destroying Venise pictures and spoiling the views
 Not so sure it is working well actually.
The hysteria us vs them working well but 
1) we are twisting the virus and creating new variants with the lockdown.the slower the spread the higher the number of  mutants. And we might end up with a really scary one, i mean a real pandemy
2) science (as selectively pushed to us) can not be trusted anymore so that could have serious consequences on CC or the next pandemic..real or false.
3) obviously government credibility is sinking even deeper,as for democracy as a concept...
4) China uber All. And i am sure the reset was not aiming at that.
5) nor the fact people just disconnect.
Get out in the country and do gardening and golfing fishing instead of slaving ..
Grand plans usually collapse and thanks God or whatever for that


----------



## wayneL (11 July 2021)

Be like Singapore


----------



## SirRumpole (12 July 2021)

112 cases in Sydney today.

Gladys is looking worried.

The 'gold standard" is looking rather corroded.


----------



## Humid (12 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> 112 cases in Sydney today.
> 
> Gladys is looking worried.
> 
> The 'gold standard" is looking rather corroded.


----------



## IFocus (13 July 2021)

Numbers coming out for the NSW out break hospitalisation is running around 9% to 10% of recorded infections, 2% of those end up in  ICU which is much higher than standard COVID.

Delta of course is affecting younger age groups as well.


----------



## mullokintyre (13 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Numbers coming out for the NSW out break hospitalisation is running around 9% to 10% of recorded infections, 2% of those end up in  ICU which is much higher than standard COVID.
> 
> Delta of course is affecting younger age groups as well.



Seeing as some of us have a problem with stats, are you saying the 2% figure is 2% of the total cases , or 2% of the 9% to 10% of recorded infections.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Seeing as some of us have a problem with stats, are you saying the 2% figure is 2% of the total cases , or 2% of the 9% to 10% of recorded infections.
> Mick



What is clear, is that somebody is manipulating statistics for their own ends.

Some honest number crunching would be really appreciated.


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2021)

I've just been chatting with my beloved about who in our family has died from respiratory distress (flu, pneumonia etc) over the years.

5 out of 8 grandparents
7 cousins
My dad
Mrs' dad is on his deathbed.

The number is greater in fact, than by other causes, cancer etc.

We were discussing that this proportion seems to be no different really than those who are dying from covid.

FEIW


----------



## bellenuit (13 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> I've just been chatting with my beloved about who in our family has died from respiratory distress (flu, pneumonia etc) over the years.
> 
> 5 out of 8 grandparents
> 7 cousins
> ...




Really. And is your sample based on a cross section of population where COVID is out of control, or just from a population where COVID is well under control, like Australia and New Zealand.

I suppose all these people in Indonesia screaming out for Oxygen tanks are just an aberration...

‘Dying in their homes’: COVID-hit Indonesians scramble for oxygen​








						‘Dying in their homes’: COVID-hit Indonesians scramble for oxygen
					

Citizens search desperately for oxygen to care for their loved ones at home as overwhelmed hospitals turn people away.




					www.aljazeera.com
				




And wasn't that the story in India a few months back.


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Really. And is your sample based on a cross section of population where COVID is out of control, or just from a population where COVID is well under control, like Australia and New Zealand.
> 
> I suppose all these people in Indonesia screaming out for Oxygen tanks are just an aberration...
> 
> ...



Settle down bro, it's an anecdote, and a very valid one.


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2021)

The wife and I are booked in next Tues for the AZ, we would rather not, but the North Queensland holiday is looming closer and don't want to miss it due to a rule change.
It took over 12 months, to get last years holiday booking money back, I really don't want to go through that again.


----------



## bellenuit (13 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Settle down bro, it's an anecdote, and a very valid one.




I'll relay that to the authorities in Indonesia. It seems they are overreacting and they should have no cause for concern.


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I'll relay that to the authorities in Indonesia. It seems they are overreacting and they should have no cause



Wut?

How is that even relevant to what we are talking about here?


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I'll relay that to the authorities in Indonesia. It seems they are overreacting and they should have no cause for concern.



67000 feaths from a population of 278 million.

About 0.024%... *from covid or *with covid?

It's hardly the bubonic plague now is it?


----------



## bellenuit (13 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> 67000 feaths from a population of 278 million.
> 
> About 0.024%... *from covid or *with covid?
> 
> It's hardly the bubonic plague now is it?




That's OK then. People dying in their homes due to lack of oxygen supplies, hospitals overwhelmed etc. No big deal. 

I'm sure a static percentage with no reference to the trend expresses the gravity of what is happening.


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2021)

You should learn to read data, no be beguiled by graphs.

Until then, you will be a useful idiot.

BTW:

We have had three family members now go out this year (not from covid, but they died *all alone* because of lockdowns) and another one not so far away, so **** you.


----------



## bellenuit (13 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> You should learn to read data, no be beguiled by graphs.
> 
> Until then, you will be a useful idiot.




You're not making any sense. Are the graphs wrong or do you just don't want to face up to what they are indicating?

_We have had three family members now go out this year (not from covid, but they died *all alone* because of lockdowns) and another one not so far away, so **** you._

Wow. This is somehow my fault?


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> You're not making any sense. Are the graphs wrong or do you just don't want to face up to what they are indicating?
> 
> _We have had three family members now go out this year (not from covid, but they died *all alone* because of lockdowns) and another one not so far away, so **** you._
> 
> Wow. This is somehow my fault?





You introduced bs from Indonesia, mate, so I introduced real stuff from my life, @sshole.

The graphs are correct, they confirm my point, ie a 0.024% fatality rate, most likely with comorbidities.


----------



## bellenuit (14 July 2021)

If you believe figures of out of control infections and deaths in Indonesia and similar patterns emerging in The Netherlands, South Korea and a few other countries are BS, but your personal experiences from within the cocoon of WA (or even Australia in general) is more reflective of what is going on with COVID, then you need inform yourself a bit more. I personally know nobody from within my family or circle of friends and their extended families and friends dispersed over several continents who has fallen ill with COVID or worse still died as a result of COVID, but I am not so naive as to think that that cross section of people is in any way representative of what is happening elsewhere.

_The graphs are correct, they confirm my point, ie a 0.024% fatality rate, most likely with comorbidities._

Then you also need to understand the difference between an average taken at a particular point in time which is the figure you quoted against the obvious trends that the graphs show, which are infections and deaths spiralling out of control.


----------



## qldfrog (14 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> If you believe figures of out of control infections and deaths in Indonesia and similar patterns emerging in The Netherlands, South Korea and a few other countries are BS, but your personal experiences from within the cocoon of WA (or even Australia in general) is more reflective of what is going on with COVID, then you need inform yourself a bit more. I personally know nobody from within my family or circle of friends and their extended families and friends dispersed over several continents who has fallen ill with COVID or worse still died as a result of COVID, but I am not so naive as to think that that cross section of people is in any way representative of what is happening elsewhere.
> 
> _The graphs are correct, they confirm my point, ie a 0.024% fatality rate, most likely with comorbidities._
> 
> Then you also need to understand the difference between an average taken at a particular point in time which is the figure you quoted against the obvious trends that the graphs show, which are infections and deaths spiralling out of control.



I know you are running like a rabbit caught in headlights but it is time you cool down and learn to do real stats.
While not comparable with Australia..please please avoid panic attack then start basic stat.
Overall population, overall number of death per day 3y ago 2 y ago,1y ago and now
You may..i repeat may see an increase, if you do, i would reasonably put part of it on covid.
Bring that in percentage..of the right numbers so overall population.
we already know that 100pc of covid deaths are dying from covid....🙄
As i read your posts, if you do a test and are declared covid affected, you will probably die in 24h from the panic and stress.
This is not the bubonic plague.
Numbers do not lie..but for that you need an impartial view and the right number selection.
And do not forgets the kids dying of malnutrition in Bali because of covid...
It is not the illness killing them...but they definitively are hungry because of us..or more exactly people made to react like you


----------



## SirRumpole (14 July 2021)

Tough times for all I'm afraid.

Yes, people die every day, but more will die if we don't have restrictions untill sufficient vaccination.


----------



## rederob (14 July 2021)

qldfrog said:


> I know you are running like a rabbit caught in headlights but it is time you cool down and learn to do real stats.
> While not comparable with Australia..please please avoid panic attack then start basic stat.
> Overall population, overall number of death per day 3y ago 2 y ago,1y ago and now
> You may..i repeat may see an increase, if you do, i would reasonably put part of it on covid.
> ...



Neither you nor @wayneL seem to understand the effects of the disease or its data.
As has been shown in numerous countries from the USA and UK, to more recently India and Indonesia, covid stresses medical systems to the point that people who could be saved are not.  That's aside from ICU wards being overrun by covid patients to the detriment of other patients who needed intensive care and could not receive it.
In that light, the data are trivial as the effects have been blindingly obvious.  Less obvious because its less in the media are the impacts of "long covid", recently estimated to affect around 2 million people in the UK alone.
WRT deaths per se, the point is that covid has introduced a new metric, and it's best measured by case fatality rate:





The idea that most of those testing positive have greater than one chance in one hundred of dying is not one of life's lotteries that you want to win.  That makes covid nothing like the flu, unless you think one in a hundred who get the flu each year will die!
The false equivalents being bandied around in this thread are meaningless.


----------



## mullokintyre (14 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Neither you nor @wayneL seem to understand the effects of the disease or its data.
> As has been shown in numerous countries from the USA and UK, to more recently India and Indonesia, covid stresses medical systems to the point that people who could be saved are not.  That's aside from ICU wards being overrun by covid patients to the detriment of other patients who needed intensive care and could not receive it.
> In that light, the data are trivial as the effects have been blindingly obvious.  Less obvious because its less in the media are the impacts of "long covid", recently estimated to affect around 2 million people in the UK alone.
> WRT deaths per se, the point is that covid has introduced a new metric, and it's best measured by case fatality rate:
> ...



Not wanting to argue with your logic, I would just add one  important caveat.  Some of these countries had higher mortality rates   than others before COVID came along.  In some ways it doesn't matter HOW you die, you are dead anyway. Having worked in Asia, Africa and a couple of PacificIsland nations, I can tell you my biggest fear was that I would be killed in a traffic "accident" in some of those countries. if the overall death rate goers up, then thats an issue. Otherwise, its the cause of death that is altered, not the rate.
Mick


----------



## rederob (14 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Not wanting to argue with your logic, I would just add one  important caveat.  Some of these countries had higher mortality rates   than others before COVID came along.  In some ways it doesn't matter HOW you die, you are dead anyway. Having worked in Asia, Africa and a couple of PacificIsland nations, I can tell you my biggest fear was that I would be killed in a traffic "accident" in some of those countries. if the overall death rate goers up, then thats an issue. Otherwise, its the cause of death that is altered, not the rate.
> Mick



Using the overall death rate as a metric is fundamentally flawed.
It akin to an ebola or MERS outbreak not being  problems because they were statistically insignificant.
Most infectious diseases are preventable or, at least, able to be mitigated by medication such that death is a low probability.
Until vaccines were developed for covid our main defences were masks, social distancing and hand sanitising. 

Your other point relates to death substitution, as if the greater than 1% chance of dying if infected by covid is not an issue.  It's a bit like suggesting we don't need to wear seatbelts anymore because if the overall mortality rate has been declining it won't make a difference:




What we actually do in the real world is look at every possible means to prevent *all *avoidable deaths, and take appropriate action.
I would imagine that your experiences in overseas countries led you to avoid situations where you would be most at risk, or ensure you took the best precautions otherwise available to you.
That's what we all now need to be doing wrt covid.


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Neither you nor @wayneL seem to understand the effects of the disease or its data.
> As has been shown in numerous countries from the USA and UK, to more recently India and Indonesia, covid stresses medical systems to the point that people who could be saved are not.  That's aside from ICU wards being overrun by covid patients to the detriment of other patients who needed intensive care and could not receive it.
> In that light, the data are trivial as the effects have been blindingly obvious.  Less obvious because its less in the media are the impacts of "long covid", recently estimated to affect around 2 million people in the UK alone.
> WRT deaths per se, the point is that covid has introduced a new metric, and it's best measured by case fatality rate:
> ...



Do the stats take into account those in the community that have covid but are undiagnosed?

Rob's correct in saying that the disease overwhelms hospitals and causes the majority of casualties from there. Keeping Covid cases low should mean less deaths though.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2021)

Apparently the queues to obtain testing are becoming an issue.




__





						No Cookies | Daily Telegraph
					

No Cookies




					www.dailytelegraph.com.au
				



From the article:
NSW Health is expected to announced expanded testing in the Fairfield LGA after the Treasurer apologised and admitted the government would "do more" for the Covid-riddled area.

As kilometres of queues and hours-long wait times plague testing clinics, NSW Treasurer Dominic Perrottet apologised publicly "significant inconvenience" to locals.

"On behalf of the government I apologise to everyone in Fairfield for this significant inconvenience but also say thank you for the sacrifices they're making," Mr Perrottet told 2GB's Ben Fordham.
Mr Perrottet urged Fairfielders to travel outside the LGA to other clinics close by for testing but said help was on the way.

"There's plenty (of clinics) around metropolitan Sydney but ultimately… we will need to allocate more resources and we will," he said.


----------



## mullokintyre (14 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Using the overall death rate as a metric is fundamentally flawed.
> It akin to an ebola or MERS outbreak not being problems because they were statistically insignificant.
> Most infectious diseases are preventable or, at least, able to be mitigated by medication such that death is a low probability.
> Until vaccines were developed for covid our main defences were masks, social distancing and hand sanitising.



I disagree. 
In these third world countries, the concept of overwhelming hospitals is a different concept to Aus. Medical facilities are primitive and in very short supply by our standards. They are always overwhelmed. Thats assuming you can get transport to one of them. On top of it you have medical charlatans everywhere offering quack cures that makes Trumps  bleach solution look minor, and the religious nutters saying that  only the high priests can cure anything.
Some of the citires are so crowded that the concept of scial distancing is laughable, have poor or non existent sanitation, don't have acess to clean water even if they wanted to wash their hands,  and any medicnes they get are likely to be out of date stuff dumped by wealthy western nations. Just no comparable.
Mick


----------



## rederob (14 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I disagree.
> In these third world countries, the concept of overwhelming hospitals is a different concept to Aus. Medical facilities are primitive and in very short supply by our standards. They are always overwhelmed. Thats assuming you can get transport to one of them. On top of it you have medical charlatans everywhere offering quack cures that makes Trumps  bleach solution look minor, and the religious nutters saying that  only the high priests can cure anything.
> Some of the citires are so crowded that the concept of scial distancing is laughable, have poor or non existent sanitation, don't have acess to clean water even if they wanted to wash their hands,  and any medicnes they get are likely to be out of date stuff dumped by wealthy western nations. Just no comparable.
> Mick



You miss the point again.  
The covid death rate is simply going to be higher when medical facilities are overwhelmed, be it Yemen or the USA.
Muddying the topic with other considerations does not take away from the fact that in most advanced nations if you tested positive you statistically had more than one chance in a hundred of dying.
You seem to be confusing rates of infection with rates of death.


----------



## wayneL (14 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Neither you nor @wayneL seem to understand the effects of the disease or its data.
> As has been shown in numerous countries from the USA and UK, to more recently India and Indonesia, covid stresses medical systems to the point that people who could be saved are not.  That's aside from ICU wards being overrun by covid patients to the detriment of other patients who needed intensive care and could not receive it.
> In that light, the data are trivial as the effects have been blindingly obvious.  Less obvious because its less in the media are the impacts of "long covid", recently estimated to affect around 2 million people in the UK alone.
> WRT deaths per se, the point is that covid has introduced a new metric, and it's best measured by case fatality rate:
> ...






rederob said:


> You miss the point again.
> The covid death rate is simply going to be higher when medical facilities are overwhelmed, be it Yemen or the USA.
> Muddying the topic with other considerations does not take away from the fact that in most advanced nations if you tested positive you statistically had more than one chance in a hundred of dying.
> You seem to be confusing rates of infection with rates of death.



That is a pretty disingenuous use of statistics Rob. You know as well as I do that the death rate is very age and comorbidity dependent. For instance the average age of death *with COVID is greater than 80 years old and all of the statistics that I have viewed.

I don't think anyone particular wants to get this damn thing and very few people claim that it is not a serious disease at least for some people.

However this disease, or more particularly bureaucratic response is very multifaceted and in the opinion of all but the most terrified who have succumbed to the fear narrative, is hugely overblown.

One can speculate about the reasons for that and it will be interesting in the near future for those who have already joined the dots on whether they have been correct.


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> That is a pretty disingenuous use of statistics Rob. You know as well as I do that the death rate is very age and comorbidity dependent. For instance the average age of death *with COVID is greater than 80 years old and all of the statistics that I have viewed.
> 
> I don't think anyone particular wants to get this damn thing and very few people claim that it is not a serious disease at least for some people.
> 
> ...



If numbers are low we won't have a problem. If we vaccinate those at risk- it's going to reduce it to near zero. 
Our treatment practices have also come a long way since last year. 
As long as we keep numbers low.

Media and politically, covid is being used to full effect.


----------



## rederob (14 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> That is a pretty disingenuous use of statistics Rob. You know as well as I do that the death rate is very age and comorbidity dependent. For instance the average age of death *with COVID is greater than 80 years old and all of the statistics that I have viewed.
> 
> I don't think anyone particular wants to get this damn thing and very few people claim that it is not a serious disease at least for some people.
> 
> ...



I placed more emphasis on impacts to hospital systems and long covid than death rates.
Perhaps you should talk to people in the USA and UK hospitals that lived through the pandemic to determine if they thought having freezer trucks in the loading docks for covid deaths was overblown.


----------



## wayneL (14 July 2021)

rederob said:


> I placed more emphasis on impacts to hospital systems and long covid than death rates.
> Perhaps you should talk to people in the USA and UK hospitals that lived through the pandemic to determine if they thought having freezer trucks in the loading docks for covid deaths was overblown.



I still have a lot of contacts in the UK, Rob. I haven't got a link at hand so consider this anecdotal, but there were a small number of hospitals that did become overwhelmed (3 from memory), whereas the vast majority were well under normal capacity.

This seems to be borne out by the plethora of tick tock videos of NHS staff posting up elaborate routines.... And the disbandment of the Nightingale hospitals.

And I repeat I don't think anybody is saying that COVID isn't very unpleasant for a minority.

My own mum just died earlier this year, not from covid but from a combination of head trauma and kidney disease... Also very unpleasant.

We were unable to see her at all for 10 days prior, due to lockdowns.... Hospital staff said she was deeply depressed as a result and I can tell you that it was pretty distressing for us too... Still is.

That's just one story out of thousands ou there, some of which have been reported recently in the media.

And BTW, particular hospital was about 1/3 full; I will let you ponder the implications of that.


----------



## IFocus (14 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Seeing as some of us have a problem with stats, are you saying the 2% figure is 2% of the total cases , or 2% of the 9% to 10% of recorded infections.
> Mick





Mick I understood it as 2% of the total admitted to hospital so 2% of the 10%.

Clearly its a small sample and early days sure to jump around a bit but I notice tonight out of the 71 cases in hospital over 20 odd are in ICU.

Worryingly a number are on ventilators so those are at a much higher risk of death. 

On the subject of hospitals Australia's run at full capacity all the time  and for what ever reason admissions are currently running at a higher than average rate Australia wide,  in WA ambulance ramping is at all time high with the state looking to employ or train a further 1000 nurses.

Throw COVID in there and the problem is obvious in terms of capacity.

But it doesn't end there, COVID burns up much higher resources, real-estate, controls are extreme, staff get infected losing entire shifts, and so much more.

At the start of the pandemic Italy was a prime example of the over run of hospitals also note front line medical workers had one of the highest death rates thought to be due to the exposure to higher viral loads.


----------



## rederob (15 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> I still have a lot of contacts in the UK, Rob. I haven't got a link at hand so consider this anecdotal, but there were a small number of hospitals that did become overwhelmed (3 from memory), whereas the vast majority were well under normal capacity.
> 
> This seems to be borne out by the plethora of tick tock videos of NHS staff posting up elaborate routines.... And the disbandment of the Nightingale hospitals.
> 
> ...



I watched many videos from American and UK hospitals at the height of the pandemic that were stretched beyond capacity and unable to transfer patients to other hospitals because they were full: go to 4:45 of this video and see for yourself. 
Rather than anecdote, I prefer data.
Using UK data some 480000 of 5.2M positive covid cases (over one in nine) were hospitalised.
Hospital admissions are not taken lightly, and your idea that 480000 people are just a *minority *belittles the extent of suffering that is experienced.
Moreover, covid-suffering hospital admissions include a significantly higher proportion of younger people that are fortunate enough to not die.
*Compare this:*




*To this:*





So death rates do not tell the whole story about the severe effects of covid on populations and health systems.


----------



## mullokintyre (15 July 2021)

No, the elephant in the room in that very first graph is the fact that there were 92,000 hospital admissions between 1 to 28 January 2021. The next set of numbers on the graph have 3,000 admissions between May 24 and June 20 2021. Thats the real story.
Mick


----------



## rederob (15 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Mick I understood it as 2% of the total admitted to hospital so 2% of the 10%.
> 
> Clearly its a small sample and early days sure to jump around a bit but I notice tonight out of the 71 cases in hospital over 20 odd are in ICU.
> 
> ...



Here's the latest data:




That translates to almost 14% being hospitalised, of which 17% end up in ICU.
Still early days so I hope the data on hospitalisations trends more towards the UK experience of below 10%.


----------



## rederob (15 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> No, the elephant in the room in that very first graph is the fact that there were 92,000 hospital admissions between 1 to 28 January 2021. The next set of numbers on the graph have 3,000 admissions between May 24 and June 20 2021. Thats the real story.
> Mick



I think you need to take a rest from data analysis as I have seen you botch it many times here.
Perhaps you can explain why a nation with 87% vaccinated with one dose and 66% fully vaccinated is experiencing an increase in infections.
The elephant in the room is the known effect that the Delta variant has infecting populations, and our federal government's lack of understanding of what needed to be put in place.


----------



## IFocus (15 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Here's the latest data:
> View attachment 127378
> 
> That translates to almost 14% being hospitalised, of which 17% end up in ICU.
> Still early days so I hope the data on hospitalisations trends more towards the UK experience of below 10%.





Thanks Rob, I was miles out.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2021)

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

The cake you eat depends on how you slice it.









						We fact checked Scott Morrison on the 'success' of hotel quarantine. Here's what we found
					

As lockdowns swept through Australia's largest cities, Prime Minister Scott Morrison defended the hotel quarantine system, claiming it has a "99.9 per cent success rate". But can he claim such a high rate of success?




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (15 July 2021)

rederob said:


> I think you need to take a rest from data analysis as I have seen you botch it many times here.
> Perhaps you can explain why a nation with 87% vaccinated with one dose and 66% fully vaccinated is experiencing an increase in infections.
> The elephant in the room is the known effect that the Delta variant has infecting populations, and our federal government's lack of understanding of what needed to be put in place.



Thanks for the timely advice. Can I offer some to your goodself. Sometimes you just need to look in a mirror.
As I tried to point out, the drastic drop in hospital admissions  is far more important than how many people got the disease, how virulent it is etc.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (15 July 2021)

The "Gold Standard " wont release the health advice



"The Business of Covid: Gladys Berejiklian hides “the health advice” as pandemic threatens Sydney"​
Despite continual claims she acted on “the health advice”, despite her fervid pleas to the NSW public to follow “the health advice”, Gladys Berejiklian has refused to disclose the health advice. However, the NSW Premier has let slip that advice from unnamed business associates of the government has played a part in her handling of the pandemic and the Sydney lockdown. *Callum Foote* and *Michael West* investigate.











						The Business of Covid: Gladys Berejiklian hides "the health advice" as pandemic threatens Sydney - Michael West Media
					

Despite claims she acted on health advice, NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian conceded advice from business was key her handling of the pandemic




					www.michaelwest.com.au


----------



## IFocus (15 July 2021)

Nothing to see here

NSW got seven times Victoria’s lockdown subsidies: What’s the Scam?​
The scam is that we are not “all in this together”. The Northern Beaches of Sydney are in a blue ribbon Liberal seat and Victoria is a Labor state.









						NSW got four times Victoria's lockdown subsidies: What's the Scam? - Michael West Media
					

The Federal Government gave NSW Northern Beaches residents seven times the lockdown support that it gave Victorians during lockdown. What's the scam?




					www.michaelwest.com.au


----------



## rederob (15 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Thanks for the timely advice. Can I offer some to your goodself. Sometimes you just need to look in a mirror.
> As I tried to point out, the drastic drop in hospital admissions  is far more important than how many people got the disease, how virulent it is etc.
> Mick



I pointed out that your analytical skills were not good, so I will again help you.
Hospitalisations in the UK have been trending upwards for 2 months:






The numerical decline from January's peak has been due to vaccination numbers increasing combined with UK's mitigation measures, while the infectiousness of the Delta strain has contributed to the rise since May.
While hospitalisation data is handy, it's not the full picture.  For example, over 80% of Victoria's covid deaths occurred in aged care facilities.
Your idea that hospitalisation numbers are more important than the actual number of covid affected people does not stack up.  If our death rate is 2.9% (which it is on today's count), then if total infection numbers increase, we can expect deaths to increase based on the rate and not on where the deaths occur.  Moreover, the virulence of any particular strain will affect the death rate.
We do not have decent data on Delta variant virulence, but early studies show hospitalisation rates increase for it, and that it is increasingly affecting much younger people.
On this basis Australia's prioritisation of vaccinations based on age need to be revisited, and greater emphasis placed on those with occupations involving significant public contact and travel.


----------



## mullokintyre (15 July 2021)

To bag me out on my data analytical skills is a bit rich.
My quote was on the original graph you supplied, and my analysis was perfectly acceptable on what you put up. There was a huge drop in hospital rates.
To then come along with another piece of data not orginally shown and then suggest I am incapabale of data analysis  is disingenuous to say the least.
The new  graph you did show has a blip at the end which looks suspiciously like it is flattening.
 I would want a lot more data before I would consider that a new trend.
As I said, you need too look at your own analytical skills.
Mick


----------



## rederob (15 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> To bag me out on my data analytical skills is a bit rich.
> My quote was on the original graph you supplied, and my analysis was perfectly acceptable on what you put up. There was a huge drop in hospital rates.
> To then come along with another piece of data not orginally shown and then suggest I am incapabale of data analysis  is disingenuous to say the least.
> The new  graph you did show has a blip at the end which looks suspiciously like it is flattening.
> ...



Please read what I wrote and stop defending your unusual analysis.
There is a wealth of data available if you choose to provide meaningful commentary, so you should consider using it in future.
Instead, without any justification you proclaim the importance of hospitalisation data over numbers of infections and virulence.
When shown that's not a good idea you play the man.
The UK situation was bleak, and offers us a picture of how bad things can get if we don't take covid seriously.  I do not know what you are trying to show as @bellenuit has previously set you straight on data interpretation.
Would you like to clarify whatever it is you think important, unless you are intending to hang your hat on the idea that we just focus on hospitalisations?


----------



## mullokintyre (15 July 2021)

This "discussion " is going nowhere.

You can have the last word.
Mick


----------



## basilio (15 July 2021)

Seems like Melbourne  going into snap lockdown at midnight.

The tipping point has been the discovery, *to date,* of two new infections from the MCG game last Saturday.

So these are infections  picked up in a open environment and not necessarily close to the initial infected person.  So almost certainly there will be others infected  in that crowd and they have all  may been active with family, friends and the community since last Saturday. 

Of course if they have been following the news and advice they will have isolated themselves  won't they ? That would be the hope - but I'm not holding my breath.

This Delta version is deadly contagious.  Thank heavens the  AFL footballers have fled in time...









						Victoria to enter five-day snap lockdown as more COVID-19 cases recorded
					

All of Victoria will go into a five-day snap lockdown from midnight tonight to curb the growing COVID outbreak.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (15 July 2021)

Interesting to see the rings of contacts from the Delta Virus. 

Scary how the infection has moved so quickly to the 5th ring

There are '7 rings of contact tracing' across the Victorian outbreaks, Jeroen Weimar says​


> "*The first ring was the removalists *that were here at the end of last week, we identified them late on Sunday night into Monday morning."
> "*The second ring was the families*, the people they moved into the state and the places where they picked up their furniture.
> "*The third ring was the neighbours, the residents in the apartment building*, *at Ariele*.
> "*The fourth ring is friends of those residents and ask neighbours*, at least one of whom has turned positive.
> ...





> 'Nothing about this virus is fair': Victorian Premier says metro and regional lockdown necessary
> 
> 
> Premier Daniel Andrews defends a five-day lockdown from midnight tonight that includes regional Victoria. He says the decision was deemed "essential by public health experts".
> ...


----------



## macca (15 July 2021)

This looks interesting, we should get some and give it to family members of those with Covid


_Patients with a self-administered nasal spray application found to have reduced SARS-CoV-2 log viral load by more than 95% in infected participants within 24 hours of treatment, and by more than 99% in 72 hours_
_Trial concluded that treatment accelerated clearance of SARS-CoV-2 by a factor of 16-fold versus a placebo_
_








						UK Clinical Trial Confirms SaNOtize’s (Israel) Breakthrough Treatment for COVID-19 - Israël Science Info
					

Biotech company SaNOtize R&D Corp., Ashford and St Peter’s Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust in Surrey, UK, and Berkshire and Surrey Pathology Services, UK, today announced results of clinical trials indicating that SaNOtize’s Nitric Oxide Nasal Spray (NONS) represents a safe and effective...




					www.israelscienceinfo.com
				












						UK Clinical Trial Confirms SaNOtize’s Breakthrough Treatment for COVID-19
					

Biotech company SaNOtize Research & Development Corp., (SaNOtize), Ashford and St Peter’s Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust in Surrey, UK, and Berksh



					www.businesswire.com
				



_


----------



## rederob (15 July 2021)

Bloomberg recently rated the USA as the most *resilient *covid nation:
	

		
			
		

		
	





If ever there was a case of imbecilic use of data, Bloomberg nailed it!
Aside from arbitrary cutoff rates and measurement time scales, the methodologies for ranking allocation appear nonsensical when not plain wrong.
For example, Bloomberg's  *covid status *scores maintain the USA in  better/best ratings despite comparatively abysmal performance.
Then under universal health care Australia ranks only marginally better than the USA, while China, with over 95% health care cover ranks significantly worse.
Better metrics would include employment (as hours worked), fixed asset investment, industrial production, and capacity utilisation.


----------



## qldfrog (16 July 2021)

From conspiracy theory to https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wo...-rule-out-covid-lab-leak-20210716-p58a7g.html
Not that i expect any excuse or even just common sense from the scared mad crowd shouting wolves at every sneeze.
I think we in australia should name our own varianti
t is so dangerous that any infected detection is send to hospital and then in ICU for pictures opportunity.
Around 600 new cases in the last week, and 182 in hospital as of this morning figure so roughly..(i know you could be in hospital 3 months etc but not here) nearly a third of weekly cases in hospital..
This new variant is more like ebola...
To compare with the frog country which only has the indian strain
35000 new cases in the last week,
7000 are hospitalised overall
So 1/5...and we have numerous long term ones..
Aussie go go go..

Obviously irony...i do not want to stress everyone.
But seriously,the good part is that the fatality rate is going down steadily. The spread more kill less of virus life cycle... even in India where  with a younger population, but horrendous hospital care, we are well below 2 %


----------



## basilio (16 July 2021)

One of the stories going around has been the relentless push of Invermectin as a COVID cure.  That particular idea has just taken a hiding when a Med Student did an analysis of one of the biggest  studies around it's effectiveness and  (*very simply*) discovered the study was a total fraud.

_The data also looked suspicious to Lawrence, with the raw data apparently contradicting the study protocol on several occasions.

“The authors claimed to have done the study only on 18-80 year olds, but at least three patients in the dataset were under 18,” Lawrence said.

“The authors claimed they conducted the study between the 8th of June and 20th of September 2020, however most of the patients who died were admitted into hospital and died before the 8th of June according to the raw data. The data was also terribly formatted, and includes one patient who left hospital on the non-existent date of 31/06/2020.”

There were other concerns.

“In their paper, the authors claim that four out of 100 patients died in their standard treatment group for mild and moderate Covid-19,” Lawrence said. “According to the original data, the number was 0, the same as the ivermectin treatment group. In their ivermectin treatment group for severe Covid-19, the authors claim two patients died, but the number in their raw data is four.”_









						Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns
					

The preprint endorsing ivermectin as a coronavirus therapy has been widely cited, but independent researchers find glaring discrepancies in the data




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## rederob (16 July 2021)

qldfrog said:


> But seriously,the good part is that the fatality rate is going down steadily. The spread more kill less of virus life cycle... even in India where  with a younger population, but horrendous hospital care, we are well below 2 %
> View attachment 127456



Yet more claims by @qldfrog that are barely credible!
With increasing levels of vaccinations globally, better levels of pandemic preparedness, and more effective treatment regimes, we should have a reasonable expectation that case fatality rates would fall if the Delta variant was less deadly.  But in May 2021 the world's CFR was 2.15% and in June 2.17%.  Even @qldfrog's cherry picked example of India showed an increasing CFR *after *the worst effect of its pandemic.
Here's the CFR for selected nations and the world for 2021 when the Delta variant became the main disease:




Maybe the picture will change as more data becomes available but for now, given vaccination rates have ramped up in 2021, it is not unreasonable to infer the Delta strain might be slightly more virulent.


----------



## basilio (16 July 2021)

Another take on COVID for Crafty people.  (Perhaps the partner ?)

You and 9 friends are crafting. 1 person is using glitter.
How many projects now have glitter on them ?


----------



## wabullfrog (16 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Here's the latest data:
> View attachment 127378
> 
> That translates to almost 14% being hospitalised, of which 17% end up in ICU.
> Still early days so I hope the data on hospitalisations trends more towards the UK experience of below 10%.




Wouldn't that data be corrupted by QLD moving all Covid cases into a dedicate hospital as a precautionary measure not on the basis that they medically would require hospitalisation.









						Designated COVID-19 Hospital Network
					

To protect the health of the Queensland community, health workers and hospital system, a best practice approach to manage people diagnosed with COVID-19 is in place.




					www.qld.gov.au


----------



## rederob (16 July 2021)

wabullfrog said:


> Wouldn't that data be corrupted by QLD moving all Covid cases into a dedicate hospital as a precautionary measure not on the basis that they medically would require hospitalisation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Definitely, and I will get to the "but" after the following point.
It's one of the many inconsistencies of State/Territory approach, and skews the data so that *hospitalisations *appear worse than medical diagnosis would warrant.
But, that means then the proportion of hospitalisations needing treatment at the *ICU *should be considerably higher.
It has no impact on our case fatality rate.

(nb., interpolating the data suggests Qld would likely only have a medical need for about 6 hospitalisations rather than 50 as shown today)


----------



## moXJO (16 July 2021)

wabullfrog said:


> Wouldn't that data be corrupted by QLD moving all Covid cases into a dedicate hospital as a precautionary measure not on the basis that they medically would require hospitalisation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good pick-up.


----------



## qldfrog (16 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Good pick-up.



It is, that's what i mean, and soon they will tell youlook how bad it is, you end up in hospital..scary..


----------



## wayneL (16 July 2021)

And now people will, once again, die for liberty.

Well done leftist ****s


----------



## IFocus (16 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> And now people will, once again, die for liberty.
> 
> Well done leftist ****s






Who is leftist?


----------



## moXJO (17 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> And now people will, once again, die for liberty.
> 
> Well done leftist ****s




Apparently you can't sit inside establishments if you don't have the jab.


----------



## rederob (17 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Who is leftist?



Everyone fighting for rights?


----------



## moXJO (17 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Who is leftist?



Well the leftist minister for education for one.


----------



## basilio (17 July 2021)

The intersection of free speech, mindless COVID denial, and proud defiance..
Katie Hopkins in Australia trashing our COVID quarantine rules and the staff in her luxury quarantine hotel.

Katie Hopkins trolls Sydney’s lockdown from hotel quarantine​Outspoken British celebrity Katie Hopkins is in Sydney, where she’s branded lockdown “bulls**t” and is deliberately defying hotel virus rules.

Katie Hopkins, once dubbed “the world’s most hated woman”, is rumoured to have flown into Australia to appear on _Big Brother_.
The 46-year-old far-right political commentator took to Instagram Live at 5am on Saturday to “call out” the Sydney and Melbourne lockdowns.

The mum-of-three also said she had been deliberately trying to defy hotel quarantine rules during her mandatory 14-day stint by opening her door to workers delivering her food naked.

*‘Lockdown is hoax’*

Hopkins told followers she wanted to be “very clear” she was able to get into Australia thanks to her career as a “gobby mouth”, stressing it wasn’t a method “anyone else can follow

...She went on to say that since the start of the pandemic she has always claimed “lockdown is and will always remain the greatest hoax in human history”.

*‘Frighten the s**t out of the workers’*

She also stated that completing mandatory quarantine was her way of “calling out” lockdown – admitting she had deliberately been flouting rules issued to her by Federal Police when escorted to the hotel.

“I’ve been told when they bring three meals a day to the door... I have to wait 30 seconds before opening the door,” she said.

“And then I can open the door but only with a face mask.”

Instead, she has said she has been “lying in wait” in the bathroom naked, sprinting to the door to “frighten the s**t out of them [the workers] and do it naked with no face mask”.

During her lengthy video that lasted almost 30 minutes, Katie also admitted she had been standing naked at her 28th floor window in a bid to flash the office workers, but there were none.









						Fury as ‘most hated woman’ flouts Sydney quarantine rules
					

A British celebrity currently in Sydney’s hotel quarantine has labelled lockdown “bulls**t” and is openly mocking safety rules.




					www.news.com.au
				




*Absolutely priceless. *Now in the good old days (?)  if we had principled Ministers upholding public health at time of crisis the response would be simple and swift.

*Bye Bye Ms Hopkins.  Your on the next plane back to UK. We'll send you the tab (and we will follow it up) and don't bother trying to come back to Australia for the next 5 years. *

And that would be getting off lightly. Really if some local yobbo pulled those sort of stunts they be in jail for a few months plus fines.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On second thoughts a plane flight back would be too good for her.  I think a berth on a slow tramp steamer back to UK would give her a better opportunity to reflect on the situation.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 July 2021)

Australia specialises in bringing British intellectuals  out to lecture us on our shortcomings.
Mick


----------



## basilio (18 July 2021)

Intriguing story on the origins of the hundreds anti vaxxer/COVID is a hoax/world reset memes that swirl around the net.

It seems that the majority of of these stories have come from just 12 people and then been spread across the millions of people who follow them.  Check out the story and* in particular the report on which it is based. * At the end the authors highlight some of the  lies and misinformation that is routinely promoted through the media platforms of these people.

Majority of Covid misinformation came from 12 people, report finds​CCDH finds ‘disinformation dozen’ have combined following of 59 million people across multiple social media platforms





On Facebook alone, the dozen are responsible for 73% of all anti-vaccine content, though the vaccines have been deemed safe and effective by the US government and its regulatory agencies. Photograph: Science Photo Library/Alamy Stock Photo

Erum Salam
Sun 18 Jul 2021 04.34 AEST
Last modified on Sun 18 Jul 2021 04.36 AEST

The vast majority of Covid-19 anti-vaccine misinformation and conspiracy theories originated from just 12 people, a report by the Center for Countering Digital Hate (CCDH) cited by the White House this week found.

CCDH, a UK/US non-profit and non-governmental organization, found in March that these 12 online personalities they dubbed the “disinformation dozen” have a combined following of 59 million people across multiple social media platforms, with Facebook having the largest impact. CCDH analyzed 812,000 Facebook posts and tweets and found 65% came from the disinformation dozen. Vivek Murthy, US surgeon general, and Joe Biden focused on misinformation around vaccines this week as a driving force of the virus spreading.

On Facebook alone, the dozen are responsible for 73% of all anti-vaccine content, though the vaccines have been deemed safe and effective by the US government and its regulatory agencies. And 95% of the Covid misinformation reported on these platforms were not removed.









						Majority of Covid misinformation came from 12 people, report finds
					

CCDH finds ‘disinformation dozen’ have combined following of 59 million people across multiple social media platforms




					www.theguardian.com
				











						The Disinformation Dozen — Center for Countering Digital Hate | CCDH
					

Just twelve anti-vaxxers are responsible for almost two-thirds of anti‑vaccine content circulating on social media platforms. This new analysis of content posted or shared to social media over 812,000 times between February and March uncovers how a tiny group of determined anti-vaxxers is...




					www.counterhate.com


----------



## basilio (18 July 2021)

Excellent analysis on the ABC on the effects of dropping COVID restrictions to early in Holland and the impact such a decision will have in the UK.
The  infection graphs tell  it all.









						What will happen when England lets the virus rip? The Dutch tried it three weeks ago. This is how it went
					

As England prepares to return to pre-pandemic life, the Netherlands serves as a warning for what happens when you abandon almost all restrictions.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## pozindustrial (18 July 2021)

Looks like a 'disinformation' campaign all of its own. 

It disregards the hundreds of scientists, doctors, researchers etc. that are the real source of the information and that this 'dirty dozen' are only bringing that information forward because the media refuses to.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Looks like a 'disinformation' campaign all of its own.
> 
> It disregards the hundreds of scientists, doctors, researchers etc. that are the real source of the information and that this 'dirty dozen' are only bringing that information forward because the media refuses to.



The medical science in unequivocal, and your ideas are reprehensible.
Sadly it is your ilk that is now leading to tens of thousands of people each day unnecessarily catching *and *spreading covid due to wilful ignorance.


----------



## moXJO (18 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Intriguing story on the origins of the hundreds anti vaxxer/COVID is a hoax/world reset memes that swirl around the net.
> 
> It seems that the majority of of these stories have come from just 12 people and then been spread across the millions of people who follow them.  Check out the story and* in particular the report on which it is based. * At the end the authors highlight some of the  lies and misinformation that is routinely promoted through the media platforms of these people.
> 
> ...



Pffftt. The CCDH is who again
Oh an ex labour minister.

Anti vax stuff has been around for years. Head up the central coast and you will find out we have a very large community for a number of years. Even round Katoomba.

I've had Clive Palmer dropping anti-vaccine stuff in my letterbox
 This seems to be a way to silence what they don't like on a platform.

As far as I was aware, the vaccine has not been tested fully as other vaccines were. A critical eye should always be placed on pharmaceutical companies.

The Guardian is trash.


----------



## IFocus (18 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> As far as I was aware, the vaccine has not been tested fully as other vaccines were. A critical eye should always be placed on pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> The Guardian is trash.




The flu vac is tested on 10K, most just front up no questions? COVID vacs were tested on 30K + and now you could say billions.

Data is freely available in large amounts re problems, extraordinarily transparent considering all the accusations.

Not saying questions should not be asked and there are no problems  , note every vacs ever made has issues (Guillain-Barré syndrome very common_) _every single one of them but so far haven't seen Armageddon due to COVID vaccines.


----------



## basilio (18 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Pffftt. The CCDH is who again
> Oh an ex labour minister.
> 
> Anti vax stuff has been around for years. Head up the central coast and you will find out we have a very large community for a number of years. Even round Katoomba.
> ...




The problem is not the CCDH analysis of what is happening on the net around COVID and vaccination information.

It's not about The Guardian or indeed any other media reporting the research.

It's not about President Biden using that information to hold Facebook to account for allowing it to be used to promote relentless, dangerous lies about COVID and vaccination.

*The problem is  that because of these relentless lies started, spread and then believed by millions of people  delta COVID is now way out of control.* Making that far worse  is peoples refusal to  acknowledge this is a dangerous disease and get vaccinated to protect themselves and others.


----------



## basilio (18 July 2021)

basilio said:


> The intersection of free speech, mindless COVID denial, and proud defiance..
> Katie Hopkins in Australia trashing our COVID quarantine rules and the staff in her luxury quarantine hotel.
> 
> Katie Hopkins trolls Sydney’s lockdown from hotel quarantine​Outspoken British celebrity Katie Hopkins is in Sydney, where she’s branded lockdown “bulls**t” and is deliberately defying hotel virus rules.
> ...




Well that  seems to have been a bridge too far for  Katie Hopkins the proud troll bearer of COVID denial.  Talk about burning down the house.

Seems as if not even the most conservative of our politicians could support the poisonous dribble she was spewing and the  rabid behavior towards hotel staff in her quarantine centre. 

_Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce made it clear that if Ms Hopkins broke the rules of hotel quarantine he would not be fazed in kicking her out of the country.

“I‘m the one who wanted to send home Johnny Depp’s dog so I have no problem sending home someone who wants to flout our laws. If you want to do that, pack your bongo and get out of the country,” he told the ABC._









						Katie Hopkins seen at Sydney Airport ahead of deportation from Australia
					

Far-right commentator Katie Hopkins is being deported from Australia after her controversial quarantine statements.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## wayneL (18 July 2021)

This study from 2005 gone viral all over Tw@tter... Interesting eh?









						Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread
					

Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) is caused by a newly discovered coronavirus (SARS-CoV). No effective prophylactic or post-exposure therapy is currently available.We report, however, that chloroquine has strong antiviral effects on SARS-CoV infection ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread
Martin J Vincent, Eric Bergeron, [...], and Stuart T Nichol

Additional article information

Abstract
Background
Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) is caused by a newly discovered coronavirus (SARS-CoV). No effective prophylactic or post-exposure therapy is currently available.

Results
We report, however, that chloroquine has strong antiviral effects on SARS-CoV infection of primate cells. These inhibitory effects are observed when the cells are treated with the drug either before or after exposure to the virus, suggesting both prophylactic and therapeutic advantage. In addition to the well-known functions of chloroquine such as elevations of endosomal pH, the drug appears to interfere with terminal glycosylation of the cellular receptor, angiotensin-converting enzyme 2. This may negatively influence the virus-receptor binding and abrogate the infection, with further ramifications by the elevation of vesicular pH, resulting in the inhibition of infection and spread of SARS CoV at clinically admissible concentrations.

Conclusion
Chloroquine is effective in preventing the spread of SARS CoV in cell culture. Favorable inhibition of virus spread was observed when the cells were either treated with chloroquine prior to or after SARS CoV infection. In addition, the indirect immunofluorescence assay described herein represents a simple and rapid method for screening SARS-CoV antiviral compounds.


----------



## moXJO (18 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> The flu vac is tested on 10K, most just front up no questions? COVID vacs were tested on 30K + and now you could say billions.
> 
> Data is freely available in large amounts re problems, extraordinarily transparent considering all the accusations.
> 
> Not saying questions should not be asked and there are no problems , note every vacs ever made has issues (Guillain-Barré syndrome very common_) _every single one of them but so far haven't seen Armageddon due to COVID vaccines.



They are not FDA approved for a reason. And that's because they require a lot more data then they have so far received.

Real world usage as a study needs a lot more people involved, skews the placebo group, I think they have to study effects for about 1-2 years. And a whole heap more before approval. So yes you are basically guinea pigs.

In saying that the vaccine has been both effective and remarkably safe all things considered.


----------



## moXJO (18 July 2021)

basilio said:


> The problem is not the CCDH analysis of what is happening on the net around COVID and vaccination information.
> 
> It's not about The Guardian or indeed any other media reporting the research.
> 
> ...



The problem is the government using it as an excuse to restrict. I'm not talking about the loony bin stuff. But the reasonable dissent.


----------



## basilio (18 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> This study from 2005 gone viral all over Tw@tter... Interesting eh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe.. Until you check out what medical science said about the differences of COVID 19 to SARS and why in fact it doesn't work.









						Fact check: Chloroquine/SARS study does not prove hydroxychloroquine’s effectiveness against COVID-19
					

Posts circulated on social media make the claim that the results of a 2005 chloroquine/SARS study provide evidence of hydroxychloroquine’s effectiveness against COVID-19. This is false.




					www.reuters.com
				












						What makes (hydroxy)chloroquine ineffective against COVID-19: insights from cell biology
					

Abstract. Since chloroquine (CQ) and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) can inhibit the invasion and proliferation of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SAR




					academic.oup.com


----------



## basilio (18 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> The problem is the government using it as an excuse to restrict. I'm not talking about the loony bin stuff. But the reasonable dissent.




Really ?  That's your beef ? You don't  actually agree with all the "loony bin" stuff being spewed out about COVID ?  I  also gathered, I think, that you recognised the vaccines are essential if we are going to get on top of this rapidly evolving nightmare.

*So why on earth did you trash the CCDH analysis which highlighted the "loony bin" stuff that was being ruthlessly pumped out by the the "loonies" ?*  Was it just another reflex kick because I raised it and  quoted The Guardian as the reporting source ?

This analysis has been around since March. It has been  widely reported. I noted that you never actually critiqued  the report.  You just trashed The Guardian and a person who was part of the group.
_Just 12 People Are Behind Most Vaccine Hoaxes On Social ..._​_https://www.npr.org › 2021/05/13 › disinformation-dozen..._

_13 May 2021 — The majority of false claims about COVID-19 vaccines on social media trace back to just a handful of influential figures.
‎Anatomy Of A COVID-19... · ‎For Some Anti-Vaccine... · ‎Vaccine Misinformation_
_The Disinformation Dozen: The 12 people responsible for ..._​_https://www.beckershospitalreview.com › the-disinform..._


14 May 2021 — Twelve _people_ are responsible for 65 percent of anti-vaccine misinformation on social media, according to a recent study conducted by the ...

Covid vaccine: Social media urged to remove 'disinfo dozen ...
https://www.bbc.com › news › technology-56536390
26 Mar 2021 — Twelve _people_ who spread the majority of vaccine disinformation should be removed, US lawmaker says.

...................................................................................................................................................................................
*So  exactly what is "reasonable dissent" anyway ?   

And when do we get to actually confront "the loonies" whether they  be the Ex President of the US or imported troll haters from the UK  who call the virus a hoax, the vaccine an attempt  to inject tracers into us and various other nonsense?*









						Covid vaccine: Social media urged to remove 'disinfo dozen'
					

Twelve people who spread the majority of vaccine disinformation should be removed, US lawmaker says.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## moXJO (18 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Really ?  That's your beef ? You don't  actually agree with all the "loony bin" stuff being spewed out about COVID ?  I  also gathered, I think, that you recognised the vaccines are essential if we are going to get on top of this rapidly evolving nightmare.
> 
> *So why on earth did you trash the CCDH analysis which highlighted the "loony bin" stuff that was being ruthlessly pumped out by the the "loonies" ?*  Was it just another reflex kick because I raised it and  quoted The Guardian as the reporting source ?
> 
> ...



Because it's political. And the nonsense is being pumped out either side. They are tightening honest debate. From what I know covid is having a second wave in the most vaccinated countries which seems odd. I need to check the data as it's basically scrubbed from front page searches.
And ok ban those 12 people. Not rewrite laws.

This disease is treatable, but its ability to overwhelm hospitals is what makes it deadly. Majority of people won't even notice they have it. But it's simply the numbers. There is no proof that it won't mutate in a vaccinated person.

Those that had SARS  showed that T-cell immunity worked against the new coronavirus even after 17 years. No reason why this one won't be similar I suppose.

Don't quote me on that. Singapore study I think.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 July 2021)

basilio said:


> *The problem is that because of these relentless lies started, spread and then believed by millions of people delta COVID is now way out of control.*



A related problem is that the entire concept of expertise, of institutions, that some person or organisation is an authority on a subject and is beyond reproach, has been seriously damaged over the past 20 or so years.

Military intelligence, financial regulators, building inspections, medical journals, universities and all manner of other things that were once held to be of integrity have become compromised and subject to influences of politics, fashionable opinion, commercial interests and so on.



> At the time, almost nothing was known about the origin of the virus so the statement by these scientists seems to have been driven less by good science than by protecting careers and funding. _The Lancet_ has gone to ground but appears to have put political correctness before science.












						Suddenly the ‘lab leak’ theory can’t be so readily dismissed: the stifled search for COVID’s Patient Zero
					

At last the World Health Organisation realises playing nice with China won’t work.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Much the same could be said for all sorts of subjects. There was a time not that long ago, 1990's and prior, when statements from respected authorities on a subject could be taken as factually correct so far as they were referring to the past or present, any debate being limited to the best solution to the problem going forward.

Today however, pretty much any public statement is suspect and needs to be dissected to determine what's fact, what's the actual opinion of who's saying it and what's a product of political, commercial or other influences. Even once highly regarded institutions are at least somewhat questionable today.

I've seen that play out first hand in a very different industry. The public gets fed some absolute nonsense, easily debunked at the time by anyone with access to a computer and the internet, so it's no wonder they're confused as to what's true and what isn't.

With that lack of credible information and confidence in it comes fertile ground for all manner of conspiracy theories.

The situation with COVID vaccination is the inevitable consequence of that breakdown of trust in institutions and the reality that pretty much everything in 2021 is seen through the lens of political tribalism.


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2021)

And on that matter, an interesting podcast ,with transcript ,about the lab origin theory,and how it was treated before at long last it became possible to even siggest it
https://quillette.com/2021/06/07/po...19-was-caused-by-a-chinese-lab-leak/#menuopen

I highly value Quilette journalism which offers non woke proper articles outside the usual Guardian ABC crap or Daily Mirror/ Fox News  sensationalism.


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2021)

I agree on @Smurf1976  view about science (scientists) lack of recent objectivity and so not being trustful.
It is now pretty clear on Covid issues so the frog attitude vs mRNA vaccines..even if the frog has had all vaccines know to man so far due to travels in all  jungles and continents..
So antivax me?
On the side note:
I hope people will then take the time to consider who is pushing and what science is behind the supposedly CC, and more specifically,the blind adherence to its CO2 origin story.
Long gone is the time where a Nature article could be trusted.
And we also need to remember how wrong past science was: as a child, i found a pile of science magazines of the 1960s 1970s, and not kid's one, pretty serious papers detailing projects to dig gigantic irrigation channels with A-Bombs...yeap nuke the mountains...
Humility is needed ..


----------



## pozindustrial (19 July 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> A related problem is that the entire concept of expertise, of institutions, that some person or organisation is an authority on a subject and is beyond reproach, has been seriously damaged over the past 20 or so years.
> 
> Military intelligence, financial regulators, building inspections, medical journals, universities and all manner of other things that were once held to be of integrity have become compromised and subject to influences of politics, fashionable opinion, commercial interests and so on.
> 
> ...



Very well said. When I saw the examples of Hydroxy research debunking its ability to control Covid the first thought that came to mind is who spent the money on the research? Why? It is out of patent, cheap and made by many companies. So who is going to fund research unless they wanted a certain outcome that was financially beneficial to their source of income, ie. vaccines?

So on one side you have serious money to be earned by debunking a possible cheap option for treatment of Covid patients so that billions of dollars can be made from a rushed vaccine, while doctors at hospitals who have no financial gains, only saving lives as their motivation were coming out very publicly and letting medical authorities know that by treating patients with hydroxychloriquine + zinc + an antibiotic they massively reduced deaths and hospital stay times. That was not the only cheap drug that was found to work by those treating patients, however a similar pattern of debunking and threats went on for all of them. I believe that is systematic interference all in the name of 'good science' which I firmly believe is manipulated and full of fraudulent activity. 

My opinion is that people who trust top institutions, science, governments etc. are the easiest to fool because it is so easy to pay off the people at the head of such bodies.


----------



## rederob (19 July 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> A related problem is that the entire concept of expertise, of institutions, that some person or organisation is an authority on a subject and is beyond reproach, has been seriously damaged over the past 20 or so years.



It is unlikely the proportions of charlatans, liars and power hungry people have changed much over time.  For example, snake oil salesmen, devious politicians and organisations fronting for vested interests have been around for generations.
What has changed most is *opportunity*. All of us reading this have opportunities to influence via a globally connected world and a myriad of communication platforms. 
On topic, there is a wealth of data and medical information on covid that a number at ASF refuse to either accept, believe, or understand. This should never be confused with what remains unknown or is preliminary.


Smurf1976 said:


> The public gets fed some absolute nonsense, easily debunked at the time by anyone with access to a computer and the internet, so it's no wonder they're confused as to what's true and what isn't.



This is seldom the case in Australia unless you are referring to what is being *misrepresented *(or "spread") by those with vested interests as distinct from what has actually been said or written.  It becomes problematic when what can be shown to be incorrect, fabricated or unverifiable is spun as fact.
On topic, it's possible covid leaked from a lab in the USA, or the UK, Japan or China.  Most likely from these improbable options was a lab leak from Fort Detrick where gain of function research was recommenced under Trump.  My linked article omits this snippet about deaths from an *unknown respiratory disease* in an aged care facility 50 kilometres away from Fort Detrick!  While China has published literally hundreds of scientific papers on its coronavirus research, including with international collaborations, we know nothing about what has been conducted at Fort Detrick.  As @Smurf1976 points out as a general comment:


Smurf1976 said:


> With that lack of credible information and confidence in it comes fertile ground for all manner of conspiracy theories.



While people can join dots to draw a picture, the gaps between them sometimes require unfathomable leaps of logic.  If we are prepared to overlook that logic then we have the making of a good conspiracy theory.
The many times debunked ideas posted by @qldfrog and @pozindustrial in this thread are symptomatic of the disease of misrepresentation that proliferates in social media.


----------



## pozindustrial (19 July 2021)

I used to smoke heavily as a young man in the 60/70s, it was the done thing, fashionable and although I did not know it addictive and highly damaging to my health. The court battles over whether or not it was harmful to health raged until the truth came out officially even though it was a long, drawn-out process. Then for years after we were informed that the companies and their medical witnesses blatantly lied in court under oath because of money and prestige behind it. It took a long time to sink in because most bosses and executives smoked, most doctors and nurses smoked, most friends smoked, most sports were sponsored by tobacco companies etc. In my observation the most opinionated were the last to accept the risks citing all kinds of data for their decisions. Same now with vaccines.









						The Cigarette Controversy
					

This study examines the history of the cigarette controversy using the tobacco documents as a roadmap to explore the following four questions: ( a ) What did tobacco companies know about the health risks of smoking and when did they know it? ( b ) What evidence is there that tobacco companies...




					cebp.aacrjournals.org
				




Vaccine companies lie too about the benefits compared to risks. They have massive marketing ability, can influence medical authorities at the top levels, pay for questionable research and have billions to lose each year if they do not keep it up. Then you have the '12' who keep interviewing and quoting scientists, virologists, doctors and many more people who do not have the power and a lot to personally lose who want people to know some of the truths that conflict with the official information. 

This is not an antivaxxer campaign as the provaxxers have labelled it, it is simply listening to other sides of a strongly one-sided narrative and making a personal judgement call.


----------



## rederob (19 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Vaccine companies lie too about the benefits compared to risks.



Laws in most western nations preclude this.


pozindustrial said:


> They have massive marketing ability, can influence medical authorities at the top levels, pay for questionable research and have billions to lose each year if they do not keep it up.



So what?  If companies make false representations they will be prosecuted - plain and simple.  


pozindustrial said:


> Then you have the '12' who keep interviewing and quoting scientists, virologists, doctors and many more people who do not have the power and a lot to personally lose who want people to know some of the truths that conflict with the official information.



Nope.  What we see is how social media is used by the unscrupulous to misrepresent science.  If you cannot work out where the truth lies then you belong to the flat earthers.


pozindustrial said:


> This is not an antivaxxer campaign as the provaxxers have labelled it, it is simply listening to other sides of a strongly one-sided narrative and making a personal judgement call.



People using terminology such as "provaxxers" are active deniers of science.  There is no credible science suggesting approved vaccinations are more dangerous than the disease.


----------



## bellenuit (19 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> When I saw the examples of Hydroxy research debunking its ability to control Covid the first thought that came to mind is who spent the money on the research? Why?




The *Why* can be obvious without being conspiratorial. If the drug is being promoted as an antidote/cure, then it better work. If not COVID will just continue to spread and we will be worse off if an effective drug is being substituted for something that is ineffective.


----------



## pozindustrial (19 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> The *Why* can be obvious without being conspiratorial. If the drug is being promoted as an antidote/cure, then it better work. If not COVID will just continue to spread and we will be worse off if an effective drug is being substituted for something that is ineffective.



I think you are ignoring the fact that it was only promoted because it was found to be effective


----------



## cynic (19 July 2021)

In order to gain FDA authorisation, for emergency use, one of the criteria, that must be met, is that there be "no adequate, approved and available alternatives."

One doesn't need to be a Rhodes scholar to, connect the dots, and see the likely reason, for alternative treatments being so readily, and prejudicially, dismissed.


----------



## pozindustrial (19 July 2021)

And the campaign to dismiss was MASSIVE from serious threats to individual doctors, those who prescribed (even though they had done so for 50 years previously), those pharmacists that filled the prescriptions, facebook for censoring their clinical results sharing, wikipedia for claiming falsely that persons and organisations involved were some kind of evil conspiracy, google for denying them proper search engine optimisation etc. 

That rang alarm bells for me. Why censor the sharing of something that was proving effective for the patients and management of Covid and why promote the lie that there was no treatment that worked and that a vaccine was the only answer. Blind Freddie could see what was happening there.

Regarding trials proving that Hydroxychloroquine did not work, one has to consider how it was conducted. From my recollection hospitals who used it gave it to their staff and the rate of staff infection dropped dramatically, they gave it to all patients with symptoms as soon as they presented and they had worked out what frequency, dose and combination to use from actual use on actual patients.

Trials can be done with different dosages, at different times during infection and may look at different criteria to determine if it worked. The doctors who were using it used the measure of how much the patient improved!


----------



## rederob (19 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> I think you are ignoring the fact that it was only promoted because it was found to be effective



You need to be able to show your claims are credible.
Competent authorities have reviewed your claim and do not agree, eg:
"FDA has determined that chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are unlikely to be effective in treating COVID-19 for the authorized uses under the EUA and that the known and potential benefits of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine no longer outweigh the known and potential risks for the formerly authorized uses."​


----------



## rederob (19 July 2021)

cynic said:


> In order to gain FDA authorisation, for emergency use, one of the criteria, that must be met, is that there be "no adequate, approved and available alternatives."
> 
> One doesn't need to be a Rhodes scholar to, connect the dots, and see the likely reason, for alternative treatments being so readily, and prejudicially, dismissed.



There is no logic to that claim.
Dozens of treatment regimes have been evaluated and continue to be revisited under scientific principles where there is uncertainty.
The research on hydroxychloroquine was such a case.
Repurposing of existing drugs is never ruled out, but there needs to be reasonable evidence of successful outcomes.  Given the millions of people hospitalised to date, and the continued spread of covid, it beggars belief there is some international conspiracy against using the best available treatments.


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2021)

remdesivir is used but the hydroxy was dropped in Australia


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2021)

I think they were using the drugs with zinc or vit d in other countries?

I'm not sure if the studies included that. But there was a reason it was used together that sounded plausible (bugger if I can remember).


----------



## cynic (19 July 2021)

rederob said:


> There is no logic to that claim....



Well considering your personally preferred definitions of "logic","evaluate","scientific","certainty","reasonable",  and "evidence", your response is both typical and unsurprising.


----------



## pozindustrial (19 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I think they were using the drugs with zinc or vit d in other countries?
> 
> I'm not sure if the studies included that. But there was a reason it was used together that sounded plausible (bugger if I can remember).



What I read was that zinc did the job, but it is difficult to get the zinc into a cell which hydroxy enabled. They also included an antibiotic just in case of other infection.

ivermectin appears to be the drug of choice now for excellent treatment but I am unsure of where because it has been demonised too.

There is a gigantic effort to stop any successful treatment. Normally the opposite would happen, but big business has taken over very convincingly for some.


----------



## rederob (19 July 2021)

cynic said:


> Well considering your personally preferred definitions of "logic","evaluate","scientific","certainty","reasonable",  and "evidence", your response is both typical and unsurprising.



You are welcome to your opinions, but if you want to be credible then you need to say things which are substantive.
The "dots" you suggested be joined turn the Rhodes Scholar into a fool.


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2021)

From the healthcare industries thinking. Preventative is better than treatment. If the hospital is flooded by people needing treatment, it's still a greater cost on a few levels then vaccination. 

You then have other operations put off and potentially putting lives at risk down to no room to fit them in. 

Vaccination is simply the lowest cost solution from an economic and health perspective. I'm not fully sold on vaccination. But I think I'm due to get the pfizer in a few days.  Was thinking of waiting as mixing the vaxes seems to give better results. I ain't going for a third


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2021)

It's interesting that 60% of covid hospitalisations of the over 60s in Israel were vaccinated. It did greatly reduce the seriousness of the symptoms with only 1 in ICU. Figures were called into question. But it seems like they are right.

But this is still going to throw a spanner in the works. 90% (over 60s) were vaccinated. So people are still getting sick and transmission hasn't stopped. How is our media and twitter wanks going to cope?
And will this mean lockdowns will stay?


----------



## pozindustrial (19 July 2021)

Yeah, I hear you, but I have been active keeping my immune system in pretty good order plus I have my ultimate weapon, so I am not concerned at all. Talk about strengthening your immunity with Vit D, Zinc, Vit C and other products has also been actively censored since Covid. It seems that anything that will help other than a vaccine has been censored and demonized.

I did a post some time back on one of the forums about micropulsing so I will mention it here again. I will probably get responses of snake-oil etc. from people too lazy to find out, but I don't sell them and have no financial interest, just a personal one because it works like magic.

Anyone who reads all of the material on www.bobbeck.com will see that this is genuine. He was a brilliant physicist who was not interested in making money from his devices, they were purely to help people with health problems and he gave all the instructions away so any private individual or company could make them. The micropulser takes two hours to remove any virus I get and I have used it for years.

Here is a typical scenario. I feel fine on waking, little physical things stop working properly during the day, like stiff muscles, normally I have a sneeze which is repeated later in the day, then I wonder what physical exercise I overdid the previous day to make my muscles so sore. Eventually as the soreness takes over my whole back and I get a sore throat or sneeze more I realize that I am coming down fast with a virus or other sickness. Then I use the micropulser on my wrist and leave it there for two hours. After that I usually feel 95% fixed. The pathogen has been overtaken by my immune system and the symptoms have almost disappeared. It is that fast.

If I wait too long or the virus is a particularly strong one I might keep it on for three or four hours. The next day I feel perfect, but I learned years ago that if I did not use the micropulser for two hours a day for the next three days the virus would return, so I do that. I have done this six or seven times over the last five years. While the rest of the house or my family come down one after the other with the offending sickness I do not. My wife now uses it too whenever it appears that some sickness is taking over.

It works because all pathogens including viruses are apparently the same type of fast-multiplying organisms which are completely different to our cells. The tiny microcurrent from the micropulser is enough to turn off the reproductive enzyme layer on the pathogens without having any affect on human cells so they fail to multipy and the body removes them normally.  The original research explained all that.

It was based on research from US Patent #5,188,738 and Bob Beck designed a completely different approach to get the same result.


----------



## IFocus (19 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> It's interesting that 60% of covid hospitalisations of the over 60s in Israel were vaccinated. It did greatly reduce the seriousness of the symptoms with only 1 in ICU. Figures were called into question. But it seems like they are right.
> 
> But this is still going to throw a spanner in the works. 90% (over 60s) were vaccinated. So people are still getting sick and transmission hasn't stopped. How is our media and twitter wanks going to cope?
> And will this mean lockdowns will stay?





The vax rates are still no where near 80% to 90% for total population plus higher contagious  variants are causing problems yet populations like UK etc are opening, there has been a major difference in numbers between vaccinated and unvaccinated being admitted  to hospital.

In the US you have Fox giving the anti vax vibe (Murdoch is vaccinated) its going to be really messy.


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> The vax rates are still no where near 80% to 90% for total population plus higher contagious  variants are causing problems yet populations like UK etc are opening, there has been a major difference in numbers between vaccinated and unvaccinated being admitted  to hospital.
> 
> In the US you have Fox giving the anti vax vibe (Murdoch is vaccinated) its going to be really messy.



90% of 60yo+ were vaxed and they were 60% of hospitalisation. That was Israel. It's the fact it still presents a problem. I'm not arguing that vaccinations don't do anything. I'm arguing that it still seems to need lockdowns.


----------



## IFocus (19 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> 90% of 60yo+ were vaxed and they were 60% of hospitalisation. That was Israel. It's the fact it still presents a problem. I'm not arguing that vaccinations don't do anything. I'm arguing that it still seems to need lockdowns.





Lucky this thing doesn't take the kids like most pandemics.


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Lucky this thing doesn't take the kids like most pandemics.



Well that's just it. Pretty sure a % of younger people were getting it. Either way it doesn't matter. Vaccination reduces serious symptoms for now. And we are at a point where its just easier to vaccinate as a reduction strategy.


----------



## Belli (19 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Talk about strengthening your immunity with Vit D, Zinc, Vit C and other products has also been actively censored since Covid




No it hasn't.









						Do vitamin D, zinc, and other supplements help prevent COVID-19 or hasten healing? - Harvard Health
					

Certain vitamins and supplements have long been promoted as having benefits for the immune system, which has led some to believe they may have similar effects on COVID-19 — and some doctors have ...




					www.health.harvard.edu


----------



## bellenuit (19 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> 90% of 60yo+ were vaxed and they were 60% of hospitalisation.




Although at first glance that doesn't seem like a good outcome, remember statistically the population size producing the 60% hospitalisations is 9 times the size of that producing the 40% hospitalisations. My rough calculation is that an unvaccinated 60yo+ is 6 times more likely to be hospitalised than a vaccinated 60yo+, based on those figures.


----------



## pozindustrial (19 July 2021)

Belli said:


> No it hasn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha, that is what I am talking about. More coulds and mays in that article than I have ever seen in one place before and all connected to ‘possible’ dangers, but a definite recommendation for CDC advice! Spot on propaganda article.

And nobody who wants to improve their immunity waits until they have the disease. The article says taking those supplements when someone has the disease was not beneficial - duh. You have to take those kind of things long before to have any affect. It is your immune system that protects you, not the supplements.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> My rough calculation is that an unvaccinated 60yo+ is 6 times more likely to be hospitalised than a vaccinated 60yo+, based on those figures.



Which seems to be what moXJO is alluding to, with this post.



moXJO said:


> Vaccination reduces serious symptoms for now. And we are at a point where its just easier to vaccinate as a reduction strategy.


----------



## Belli (19 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Talk about strengthening your immunity with Vit D, Zinc, Vit C and other products has also been actively censored since Covid




No it hasn't.


pozindustrial said:


> Haha, that is what I am talking about. More coulds and mays in that article than I have ever seen in one place before and all connected to ‘possible’ dangers, but a definite recommendation for CDC advice! Spot on propaganda article.
> 
> And nobody who wants to improve their immunity waits until they have the disease. The article says taking those supplements when someone has the disease was not beneficial - duh. You have to take those kind of things long before to have any affect. It is your immune system that protects you, not the supplements.




Your statement was "Talk about strengthening your immunity with Vit D, Zinc, Vit C and other products has also been actively censored since Covid".

I posted a link in response to that so you now shift your argument.

So here is another for you regarding your false claim.









						Here’s what we know about using supplements to fight COVID-19 | Science News
					

Unless you’re deficient, there’s little evidence yet for taking Vitamin D and other supplements to treat or prevent a coronavirus infection.




					www.sciencenews.org


----------



## pozindustrial (19 July 2021)

Belli said:


> No it hasn't.
> 
> 
> Your statement was "Talk about strengthening your immunity with Vit D, Zinc, Vit C and other products has also been actively censored since Covid".
> ...



Some posts that talked about how the supplements could help were censored and the above two articles are focused on the opinion that supplements will not help.
A short time before China got on top of the outbreak in Wuhan they trucked in 50 tonnes of intravenous Vitamin C. I cannot find the articles now even though the Melbourne Herald Sun published it online.

just found a link http://www.orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v16n13.shtml

It is cheaper than hospitalising patients for many days and here is a link to it saving a swine flu patient in NZ. But that is very different to supplementing to help build your immunity.


----------



## IFocus (19 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Some posts that talked about how the supplements could help were censored and the above two articles are focused on the opinion that supplements will not help.
> A short time before China got on top of the outbreak in Wuhan they trucked in 50 tonnes of intravenous Vitamin C. I cannot find the articles now even though the Melbourne Herald Sun published it online.
> 
> just found a link http://www.orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v16n13.shtml
> ...






Asked the daughter (Dietician) about this, supplements generally are just expensive urine, "bio availability" I believe was the term if you have a deficit then you might take it up depending on a multitude of issues if you don't need it it becomes urine.


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Although at first glance that doesn't seem like a good outcome, remember statistically the population size producing the 60% hospitalisations is 9 times the size of that producing the 40% hospitalisations. My rough calculation is that an unvaccinated 60yo+ is 6 times more likely to be hospitalised than a vaccinated 60yo+, based on those figures.



I think they worked it out to being careless once they were vaccinated. My main concern is lockdowns will be the go to.


----------



## basilio (20 July 2021)

This is a sports minded way of looking at the Stae and National approach to tackling COVID .   Clever.

With NSW’s pandemic strategy in tatters, Australians are piling on the state they love to hate​Peter Lewis





The rest of the country is reeling from the fallout of the Delta outbreak. We need a fresh national game plan based on safety and trust






Tue 20 Jul 2021 11.12 AEST
Last modified on Tue 20 Jul 2021 13.52 AEST


270
After a sparkling series of victories, New South Wales has come crashing back to reality with a performance dripping in complacency and overreach. And that was just in the rugby league.

As the state of origin of a Covid outbreak that has sent half the nation into lockdown and shut state borders, the Premier State is now well out of pandemic premiership contention, fracturing what remained of the national consensus and creating fresh headaches for the prime minister.

Deploying all the subtlety of a Maroons front-rower, Queensland’s Annastacia Palaszczuk has dubbed the latest outbreak “the Sydney strain”, while returning Victorian custodian Dan Andrews has taken vindication in his own defensive style while calling out match officials for their double standards.









						With NSW’s pandemic strategy in tatters, Australians are piling on the state they love to hate | Peter Lewis
					

The rest of the country is reeling from the fallout of the Delta outbreak. We need a fresh national game plan based on safety and trust




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2021)

This to me, is what causes people to become cynical IMO.








						‘We’re getting blamed for everything’: Aged care worker frustrated over vaccine rollout
					

Aged care worker Suzana says she had to organise her own COVID-19 vaccination and the soonest she could book was late August.




					www.abc.net.au
				



A union delegate having trouble getting vaccinated, is it because she couldn't get it earlier, or didn't want it earlier.
It would be nice if the article supplied the information, as to when Suzana first applied for the vaccine.

It is appalling IMO, that the media plays political football with peoples lives, just to get the headline they want, one day it will come down to a decision between the media or democracy IMO. 
People will have to decide whether the politicians have the publics best interest at heart, or the media does.
Also I think that day is fast approaching.


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Although at first glance that doesn't seem like a good outcome, remember statistically the population size producing the 60% hospitalisations is 9 times the size of that producing the 40% hospitalisations. My rough calculation is that an unvaccinated 60yo+ is 6 times more likely to be hospitalised than a vaccinated 60yo+, based on those figures.



Would be interesting to get the figures on a virgin population..aka Australia.
In places like Europe,i have the feeling a huge % of the population has already caught it in the past 2y, and the initial "clean-up"...i know..has been done.
With winter still a fair way to go here,we might be able to get some local number.
About vitamin D, most of the elderlies who died in the first waves in France Italy and Spain are a deficient population,as is most of Europe in winter, early spring...
Sun exposure...and diet
That's why Australia is overall better off from the start,more meat fish and far more sun ,add lower density and we are a lucky country


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I think they worked it out to being careless once they were vaccinated. My main concern is lockdowns will be the go to.



Yes,still not considering treating......


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> This to me, is what causes people to become cynical IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Am i the only one to be in disbelief about this vaccine avalability?
Here in the sunshine coast,2 weeks ago was it, i called on monday, got a booking on wednesday and got injected then.no queue whatsover in the local immunisation center.
After that, if people do not want to be injected, i understand it,was already not worthwhile at our age.
 i believe this vaccine unavailability rant was/is just another blame Morrison from our woke medias and labour state premiers


----------



## pozindustrial (21 July 2021)

Are you safe after vaccination and can everything return to normal then?
Not likely on both accounts because 60% of present hospital cases in UK are double vaccinated!








						60% of people admitted to UK hospitals with COVID-19 are double-jabbed
					

Sixty percent of people being admitted to hospital with COVID-19 have had two doses of a coronavirus vaccine, according to the British government's chief scientific adviser




					www.vanguardngr.com


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Am i the only one to be in disbelief about this vaccine avalability?
> Here in the sunshine coast,2 weeks ago was it, i called on monday, got a booking on wednesday and got injected then.no queue whatsover in the local immunisation center.
> After that, if people do not want to be injected, i understand it,was already not worthwhile at our age.
> i believe this vaccine unavailability rant was/is just another blame Morrison from our woke medias and labour state premiers



Same here, went to my local doctors on Thursday, booked in and jabbed the following Tuesday.


----------



## rederob (21 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Are you safe after vaccination and can everything return to normal then?
> Not likely on both accounts because 60% of present hospital cases in UK are double vaccinated!
> 
> 
> ...



The cheer squad for misinformation latch onto rubbish.
Those over 50 years old in the UK and unvaccinated are 12 times more likely to be hospitalised.
The claim in the linked article was corrected afterwards, so you need to use data.
The graphic below shows how vaccination rates impact hospitalisations:


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2021)

The plot thickens


----------



## pozindustrial (21 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> The plot thickens




Agreed. That guy Fauci is a crook, a liar, a political scientist who funded the Wuhan gain-of-function virus research, has interests in vaccines and is compromised as an advisor on how to manage the outbreak. But the world health authorities listen to him because he is the head of the Centre for Disease Control. It is because of people like him in top positions that we are in this mess. He disregarded all successful treatments of CoVid patients that were put to him by doctors and pushed the vaccines as the only answer even though they were not available.


----------



## IFocus (21 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Agreed. That guy Fauci is a crook, a liar, a political scientist who funded the Wuhan gain-of-function virus research, has interests in vaccines and is compromised as an advisor on how to manage the outbreak. But the world health authorities listen to him because he is the head of the Centre for Disease Control. It is because of people like him in top positions that we are in this mess.* He disregarded all successful treatments of CoVid patients that were put to him by doctors *and pushed the vaccines as the only answer even though they were not available.





What successful treatments are you talking about?  

Why I ask is that doctors treating COVID are not bound by what Fauci says or WHO. 

Doctors work day and night to save lives, they all want one thing thats to save lives, one of the successes has been the readily avail information of treatments world wide particularly in Australia where treating hospitals were linked very early on to share treatment strategies that worked. 

Haven't looked lately but Australia was at one stage was leading the world on survival rates (all be it a small sample by some of the larger out breaks).

 Survival rates now appear to be a function of hospital resources.  

Not to say there are better treatments coming, currently any silver bullet would be used in an instant if it existed.


----------



## rederob (21 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Agreed. That guy Fauci is a crook, a liar, a political scientist who funded the Wuhan gain-of-function virus research, has interests in vaccines and is compromised as an advisor on how to manage the outbreak. But the world health authorities listen to him because he is the head of the Centre for Disease Control. It is because of people like him in top positions that we are in this mess. He disregarded all successful treatments of CoVid patients that were put to him by doctors and pushed the vaccines as the only answer even though they were not available.



Dr Fauci has a global reputation for his expertise in medical science fields and Rand Paul does not.
He's never in his life been so fired up as he was in responding to the incompetent Rand Paul:


Covid does not have a cure.
Some treatments work better than others on some patients and that's about the size of it ATM.


----------



## pozindustrial (21 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> What successful treatments are you talking about?
> 
> Why I ask is that doctors treating COVID are not bound by what Fauci says or WHO.
> 
> ...



I respect those doctors and institutions which is why I was alarmed that in other countries they found that hydroxychloroquine plus zinc and an antibiotic and later Ivermectin greatly reduced deaths and hospital stays and Fauci said he would only believe it with a double blind placebo control trial ( which takes years) so he not only ignored the doctors but he failed to apply the same test to vaccines and then the doctors were banned from access to those lifesaving drugs??? Heavy penalties were applied to stop other doctors from even considering them. All under the guise of good science. The poor doctors were trying to protect themselves as much as their patients. I posted a video of the USA doctors on Facebook early last year where they were pleading with authorities to listen and it was taken down not once but four times. I thought I would be helping, but big brother had ideas.


----------



## rederob (21 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> I respect those doctors and institutions which is why I was alarmed that in other countries they found that hydroxychloroquine plus zinc and an antibiotic and later Ivermectin greatly reduced deaths and hospital stays and Fauci said he would only believe it with a double blind placebo control trial ( which takes years) so he not only ignored the doctors but he failed to apply the same test to vaccines and then the doctors were banned from access to those lifesaving drugs??? Heavy penalties were applied to stop other doctors from even considering them. All under the guise of good science. The poor doctors were trying to protect themselves as much as their patients. I posted a video of the USA doctors on Facebook early last year where they were pleading with authorities to listen and it was taken down not once but four times. I thought I would be helping, but big brother had ideas.



You should show the scientific evidence for your claims.
The NIH shows what is recommended and what is not, plus where the jury remains out.
If I were a patient I would trust what has been recommended and not be seeking what has not.
For example, the use of HCQ has no proven benefit, but well documented downsides.


----------



## moXJO (21 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Are you safe after vaccination and can everything return to normal then?
> Not likely on both accounts because 60% of present hospital cases in UK are double vaccinated!
> 
> 
> ...



I believe this is similar to Israel. People that were vaccinated ignored all covid safety measures thinking they were safe. They then show up as a majority in the statistics. It should come down.


----------



## moXJO (21 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Dr Fauci has a global reputation for his expertise in medical science fields and Rand Paul does not.
> He's never in his life been so fired up as he was in responding to the incompetent Rand Paul:
> 
> 
> ...




*The NIH was funding gain of function research in Wuhan but NIH pretended it didn’t meet their ‘gain of function’ definition to avoid their own oversight mechanism.*

Fauci is telling porkies.


----------



## IFocus (21 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> I respect those doctors and institutions which is why I was alarmed that in other countries they found that hydroxychloroquine plus zinc and an antibiotic and later Ivermectin greatly reduced deaths and hospital stays




This could be the case but I would back Australian medical expertise on COVID any day of the week and currently I am not aware of COVID hospitals using this regime, I think they have long moved on to better treatments.

 Think I took hydroxychloroquine  in the 80's knocked the crap out of me if I remember rightly would rather the vax.


----------



## orr (21 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> The plot thickens






More accurately; A plot for the Thickens....

just trying to help...


----------



## divs4ever (21 July 2021)

Dr. Rand Paul   son of Dr. Ron Paul





__





						About Rand | Senator Rand Paul
					






					www.paul.senate.gov
				




 i reckon the Paul family known a little bit about medicine between them


----------



## divs4ever (21 July 2021)

well so far Remdesivir  has been given emergency approval  , maybe some Gilead share-holders helped that approval along 









						Final report confirms remdesivir benefits for COVID-19
					

The antiviral drug remdesivir shortened recovery time for patients hospitalized with COVID-19, based on results from the completed trial.




					www.nih.gov
				




 shame about the price


----------



## wayneL (21 July 2021)

orr said:


> More accurately; A plot for the Thickens....
> 
> just trying to help...



No you're not, you're trying to be a smart-ass and faiing miserably.


----------



## IFocus (21 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> No you're not, you're trying to be a smart-ass and faiing miserably.





That's a bite...eh


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> *The NIH was funding gain of function research in Wuhan but NIH pretended it didn’t meet their ‘gain of function’ definition to avoid their own oversight mechanism.*
> 
> Fauci is telling porkies.



Fauci was trying to explain the technical difference between gain of function research, and research that investigated the mechanisms for virus transfer to humans.  
Gain of function here refers specifically to research that improves the ability of a pathogen to *cause disease.  *NIH funding of WIV research however was not about enhancement of a virus but, instead, related to what changes were necessary for a virus to be able to infect human cells.  
A good analogy would be be fitting a transverse engine into a Holden's longitudinal engine compartment by moving some of the engine's peripherals  such as battery, alternator, air filter, etc..  The engine functions exactly as before, but it's a different car.
I hope that is clear.


----------



## divs4ever (22 July 2021)

i disagree   to me  'gain of function' is trying to make the organism BETTER in a desired direction  .. say more lethal  , or spreads more easily  , those two NORMALLY have opposite outcomes ( if lots of infected die it doesn't spread well , without extra help )

 think of it as 'breedinging racehorses  , you can breed them stronger , or faster , or with more stamina  , but it is very hard to breed all three in the same package and not have it die from a heart attack in it's prime ( and the BIG money is when it breeds )

 now another question is it the virus spreads very easily BUT hardly causes a cough in 95% of the infected  , has it been 'defanged'  , say compared to the original SARS , one MIGHT argue  this virus  is the vaccine to SARS ,  and the real problem is opporunistic fear 

 but of course that narrative can't come out because powerful people  are shovelling money into their own pockets ( and theyy can shut down intelligent discussion


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2021)

It depends if you redefine what 'gain of function' is I suppose. There's a lot of stuff out there.


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2021)

I remember this article:https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18787


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2021)

I'm not saying Dr Fauci was responsible for covid. Or that ' gain of function' is evil. It can be very dangerous, but it can also bring advances in the science.

But it can be very dangerous.


----------



## pozindustrial (22 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm not saying Dr Fauci was responsible for covid. Or that ' gain of function' is evil. It can be very dangerous, but it can also bring advances in the science.
> 
> But it can be very dangerous.



Exactly. Some good info being dug up. Pieces of a puzzle. World shutdown (to a lesser and greater extent) is not to be sneezed at, excuse the pun, so the more we see of the picture the better we can understand the context of what we are being told (or not told). 

Yesterday Scomo said his decisions were taken from ATAGI recommendations. If you look it up you can see the large group of professionals on the board. There is also a link to their 'disclosures of interest' and most of those are 'sponsored travel' and presenting at conferences.

The bigger the money behind them, the bigger and more prestigious the conference, the better the 'travel' and 'perks' and it does no harm to your peer status. Drug companies sponsor conferences so it must be difficult not to be influenced by them when those keynote speakers eventually guide the Australian government and WHO. 

Perhaps I am wrong or paranoid. Perhaps my belief in preventative and curative health is too old-fashioned compared to the 'maintenance' style of modern health dished out today where only symptoms are treated with a drug for life or a new chemical injection for every disease and virus that passes through every year for life. It certainly gives doctors a steady income, pharmacists a steady income, drug companies a steady income, but if they cure you of something they all lose because you do not come back. That is a lot of losses to protect. Another piece of the puzzle.


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm not saying Dr Fauci was responsible for covid. Or that ' gain of function' is evil. It can be very dangerous, but it can also bring advances in the science.
> 
> But it can be very dangerous.



I think Rand's point was not so much about gain of function or even covid,  but rather that he lied to congress about funding of it.


----------



## bellenuit (22 July 2021)

‘Now is not the time to risk it all’: Singapore returns to lockdown​








						‘Now is not the time to risk it all’: Singapore returns to lockdown
					

Three weeks after it outlined its much-publicised road map for living with COVID-19, the city-state is on the defensive again.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> It depends if you redefine what 'gain of function' is I suppose. There's a lot of stuff out there.




If a virus is not *enhanced *in some way what has it "gained"?
The semantic argument seems to pivot on any change to a virus's structure being equivalent to a "gain" as it has *added *a difference!
Rand Paul chose his words poorly, although Fauci at first blush sounds to the lay person as though he has slipped up in answering about *transmissibility to humans*.  The virus is either transmissible or it is not.  Transmissibility is not being increased as Rand Paul asks, instead it's being proven.  An enhancement would occur if the virus became more contagious or lethal.
The *big* problem with this kind of research is if a lab error occurs and the changed virus actually infects a human.  
What Fauci is certain about is that from all known research at WIV, no viruses close to SARS-CoV-2 existed in any bats.


----------



## pozindustrial (22 July 2021)

*If you never thought that Google had a vested interest in vaccines and would censor CoVid debate...*

_....In the video above, German attorney and co-founder of the German Corona Extra-Parliamentary Inquiry Committee (Außerparlamentarischer Corona Untersuchungsausschuss1),2,3 Dr. Reiner Fuellmich,4 interviews Whitney Webb, an independent investigative reporter, about who’s really behind YouTube’s censorship of medical researchers and their published works.

He recounts how a medical doctor who after a great deal of trouble managed to get a risk-benefit analysis of mask mandates published in the Journal of Pediatrics. He created a short video about his findings, and within minutes of posting it to YouTube, the video was removed. What is actually going on here? Who is behind the censoring of peer-reviewed science? Who is trying to influence what?
_
_Google Is Invested in the COVID ‘Vaccine’_​_As noted by Webb, YouTube’s parent company, Google, is directly invested in the AstraZeneca/Oxford COVID “vaccine.” While the AstraZeneca jab has been framed as a not-for-profit product, this is far from true. The developers of this gene modification tool are Adrian Hill and Sarah Gilbert with the Jenner Institute for Vaccine Research.

While the Jenner Institute is the official developer of the shot, the actual patents and royalty rights for the AstraZeneca shot are held by a private company called Vaccitech, which was founded by Hill and Gilbert. Vaccitech’s investors include:5,6,7,8
_

_Google Ventures_
_The Welcome Trust, which has longstanding links to the eugenics movement_
_The British government_
_BRAAVOS, a capital investment company set up by a Deutsche Bank executive. BRAAVO’s investment is partially hidden, as BRAAVO is the main shareholder of Oxford Science Innovation, which in turn is invested in Vaccitech_
_Chinese interests, including a Chinese bank branch and a drug company called Fosun Pharma_
_
All of these investors stand to profit from this “vaccine” at some point in the near future, and Vaccitech has been quite open about the future profit potential with its shareholders, noting that the COVID-19 shot will most likely become an annual vaccine that is updated each season much like the seasonal flu vaccine.

Sure, AstraZeneca promised it would not make any profit from this COVID-19 vaccine, but there’s a time limit on this pledge. The not-for-profit vow expires once the pandemic is over, and AstraZeneca itself can decide when that is.
_
_Google Is Protecting Its Financial Stakes_​_Since Google has a direct financial interest in AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 “vaccine,” is it any wonder that its subsidiaries, like YouTube, are censoring information that threatens the future profitability of these products? I would think not.

More broadly, Silicon Valley has been pushing to transform the health care system as a whole into a system based on telemedicine and artificial intelligence (AI). Essentially, they’re looking to replace doctors with AI-driven apps and the like....._

*The above was clipped from this article *








						How Scientists Recreated the World's Deadliest Virus
					

Scientists in the US and Canada were able to recreate a virus that caused a pandemic almost a hundred years ago. Read here to learn why.




					articles.mercola.com


----------



## wayneL (22 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> *If you never thought that Google had a vested interest in vaccines and would censor CoVid debate...*
> 
> _....In the video above, German attorney and co-founder of the German Corona Extra-Parliamentary Inquiry Committee (Außerparlamentarischer Corona Untersuchungsausschuss1),2,3 Dr. Reiner Fuellmich,4 interviews Whitney Webb, an independent investigative reporter, about who’s really behind YouTube’s censorship of medical researchers and their published works.
> 
> ...




Yep

If you don't think there are mercantile motivations in this whole vaccine thing, you're a bloody idiot. (With apologies to the anti-drink driving campaign)


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> Yep
> 
> If you don't think there are mercantile motivations in this whole vaccine thing, you're a bloody idiot. (With apologies to the anti-drink driving campaign)



Without profit these companies do not invest in further research.
Isn't the better question about if they are *profiteering?*


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> If a virus is not *enhanced *in some way what has it "gained"?
> The semantic argument seems to pivot on any change to a virus's structure being equivalent to a "gain" as it has *added *a difference!
> Rand Paul chose his words poorly, although Fauci at first blush sounds to the lay person as though he has slipped up in answering about *transmissibility to humans*.  The virus is either transmissible or it is not.  Transmissibility is not being increased as Rand Paul asks, instead it's being proven.  An enhancement would occur if the virus became more contagious or lethal.
> The *big* problem with this kind of research is if a lab error occurs and the changed virus actually infects a human.
> What Fauci is certain about is that from all known research at WIV, no viruses close to SARS-CoV-2 existed in any bats.



Rand never said the backbone used in the research Shi published was used for covid. Fauci blustered a bs point to try seem correct and detract from the actual issue. Rand’s point was Fauci funded GoF research that added a spike protein to a BatCoV in Wuhan.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Rand’s point was Fauci funded GoF research that added a spike protein to a BatCoV in Wuhan.



Correct in Rand's point, but under the rules/definitions set out by the US specifically for gain of function research, what was carried out by Shi in Wuhan was transfer and not gain. 
Rand not only didn't understand the "rules", his question lacked the technical phrasing necessary to elicit a less confrontational response.


----------



## moXJO (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Correct in Rand's point, but under the rules/definitions set out by the US specifically for gain of function research, what was carried out by Shi in Wuhan transfer and not gain.
> Rand not only didn't understand the "rules", his question lacked the technical phrasing necessary to elicit a less confrontational response.



I think it was just a point scoring effort on rands part. Although dig a bit deeper and I'm sure there's a story out of wuhan. The period between 2013ish- 2020 seemed like they were taking risks.


----------



## bellenuit (22 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> *If you never thought that Google had a vested interest in vaccines and would censor CoVid debate...*
> 
> _....In the video above, German attorney and co-founder of the German Corona Extra-Parliamentary Inquiry Committee (Außerparlamentarischer Corona Untersuchungsausschuss1),2,3 Dr. Reiner Fuellmich,4 interviews Whitney Webb, an independent investigative reporter, about who’s really behind YouTube’s censorship of medical researchers and their published works.
> 
> ...




What percentage of Google's profit is likely to come from their investment in companies that develop COVID vaccines? If you can't answer that, then stop make insinuations that YouTube are banning videos based on profit motivations. The reason is they are obligated to remove harmful misleading information concerning COVID. As for your officious sounding _German Corona Extra-Parliamentary Inquiry Committee, _they are well known for their ridiculous take on COVID. Tell India and Indonesia about their engineering of the appearance of a dangerous pandemic.


----------



## mullokintyre (23 July 2021)

Hopefully Rederob will provide some expert data analysis on what this graph is telling us.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> View attachment 127727
> 
> Hopefully Rederob will provide some expert data analysis on what this graph is telling us.



Counterintuitively, as the virulent Delta variant is still circulating in Israel's population, the maths relating to a higher vaccination rate leads to higher numbers of breakthrough infections, because the overall number of vaccinated people has gone up.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> View attachment 127727
> 
> ....what this graph is telling us.




Super interesting, thanks. That is pretty congruent with what I am seeing in the stats of other countries.


----------



## basilio (23 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> _More broadly, Silicon Valley has been pushing to transform the health care system as a whole into a system based on telemedicine and artificial intelligence (AI). Essentially, they’re looking to replace doctors with AI-driven apps and the like....._
> 
> *The above was clipped from this article *
> 
> ...




Indeed.  And what a surprise on the source. Another Mercola merde.  One of the dozen  main websites cited as the source of  the lies and misinformation circulated on the web.

How serious is COVID particularly the latest Delta variant ?  What impact is it having around the world ? What would Australia face with a critically low vaccination rate if it got out of hand here ? These are the current real world   situations.









						'No-one was listening': How did Indonesia's COVID-19 crisis get this bad?
					

Indonesia is the new epicentre of the COVID-19 pandemic, overtaking India despite only having a fraction of the population.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						India's coronavirus deaths could be in the millions, report says
					

Researchers say the death toll could be 10 times more than the official count, with estimates that millions of people could have died from COVID-19.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						Covid-19: India excess deaths cross four million, says study
					

Excess deaths - those above expected levels - are a measure of the overall impact of the pandemic.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## pozindustrial (23 July 2021)

I think mainstream media treat us like mushrooms. Keep us in the dark and feed us B/S.
Believing them is like believing in fairies.


----------



## moXJO (23 July 2021)

*a person over 60 had a one-in-200 chance of dying if they caught covid 19 and that was one-in-500 for those over 50.

"If you have the vaccine, you have a one in two million chance of actually dying"*

Now if hospitals are still filling with vaccinated people that makes things worse. 
If hospitals fill, deaths will occur.

I'm not keen getting a shot of this sht. But working off the numbers, deaths will occur to members or members family if we do lose control. Which I wouldn't wish on anyone.

I do question the data a lot. But at this time I recommend to vaccinate off the data I've read.


----------



## wayneL (23 July 2021)

Meanwhile, in Sweden.


----------



## rederob (23 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> opefully Rederob will provide some expert data analysis on what this graph is telling us.



My earlier response was probably too brief so I will provide an illustrative example (and hope I get the decimal points in the right place).
The maths is based on *breakthrough infections* (ie. fully vaccinated people who get the virus), and for convenience I will assume an Israeli population of 10M (actually about 9M).

*Example based on 10% vaccinated*
Let's this week expose 1% to the Delta variant - which is 100k exposures - and assume 10% are vaccinated, while all unvaccinated get the virus.
So that's *90k infected* from the unvaccinated group.
Let's assume 99% of the vaccinated group don't get infected, which gives us a 1% breakthrough rate.
So that's 10k vaccinated people times 1% breakthrough infections: 10k x 0.01 = *100 breakthrough infections

Example based on 90% vaccinated*
Let's use the same assumptions as above, but now work on a 90% vaccination rate.
For the same 100k exposed people this time the unvaccinated only account for 10% or *10k infections* (which is 80k less than the previous example).
Of the 100k exposed we have 90% vaccinated, which is 90k vaccinated exposures.
As the vaccine still prevents 99% of infections our breakthrough infections would be 90k x 0.01 = *900 breakthrough infections.*

Thus, increasing numbers of breakthrough infections does not necessarily mean the vaccines are working less well, it might just mean that more people are getting exposed to the virus.

Interestingly, had I used 15% unvaccinated and 85% vaccinated, which is very close to percentages in the Israeli numbers posted by @mullokintyre, I would have got almost identical proportions.  Instead I got 11% unvaccinated to vaccinated in my example versus 17% from the Israeli table.


----------



## basilio (24 July 2021)

Situation in NSW looking very difficult. No reasonable way of seeing the lockdown lifted for months - or until vaccinations reach probably 80% of the population.  This analysis is troubling.

And if  COVID does breakthrough NSW  it will not stop at the Victorian  Queensland or SA  border will it ?

Mass vaccination with Astro Zenneca -  Very, very quickly.  Pfizer can follow up.









						NSW Covid outbreak: there are hints of what’s to come, and it doesn’t look good
					

As the strategy to quash the virus flounders, premier Gladys Berejiklian and chief health officer Kerry Chant pin their hopes on vaccines




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mullokintyre (24 July 2021)

From Todays OZ


> Locked-down residents in Sydney’s Covid-ravaged southwest can walk in for an AstraZeneca inoculation just about any time they want — but local doctors warn those under 40 are still insisting on holding out until they can get access to the Pfizer vaccine.
> As the city recorded an alarming spike in infections on Friday, NSW Health Minister Brad Hazzard encouraged residents throughout Sydney’s coronavirus corridor to avoid any delays and turn to the state’s oversupply of AstraZeneca vaccine.
> Can I just say that the short answer here is there are oceans of AstraZeneca in NSW. There are also vast amounts of virus in southwestern Sydney,” Mr Hazzard said on Friday.
> “What we’re saying is your obligation to yourself, the community, NSW and indeed Australia – because this could leak further into other states – is to get the jabs of AstraZeneca.
> ...



This sort of melds in with anecdotal evidence. 
As we all know with the Pfiser vaccine, it is initially stored at -80C after manufacture, then is taken out of that extreme cold and stored at higher temp on the day before it is to be used, so they need to have some certainty with the numbers showing up. 
My daughter in law has an Uncle , a GP , who has been getting supplies of the Pfiser vaccine.  Every day he has cancellations or people who just don't turn up. Each vial of Pfizer has 5 doses, and when opened, must be used within a short time. She, my son along with all of their  Melbourne based relos have been given the Pfizer Jab because he rings various members of the family up and says if you can get there by 4.50 you can get a Pfizer jab.   He also said that  at the two max  vax centres at the Exhibition building and Jeffs Shed, people are turning up late in the afternoon to take advantage of the no shows in those two places.  It can be anything  from 5 to fifty no shows in a day.
He said the no shows were the worst, at least with a cancellation they get a chance to call someone else up. The no shows  just don't give that opportunity. 
Mick


----------



## The Triangle (24 July 2021)

Anti-lockdown protesters descend on Sydney
					

The Sydney protesters were met with a heavy police presence, including lines of mounted police officers, outside Broadway shopping centre before marching towards Town Hall.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Let's get the ring of steel up around Sydney ASAP and leave it there forever.   Happy with protestors protesting so long as they and their families are banned from receiving any treatment or hospital admissions from a covid infection.  

Gladys let this happen.   There should be zero dollars of federal support and zero support from other states.


----------



## wayneL (24 July 2021)

The Triangle said:


> Anti-lockdown protesters descend on Sydney
> 
> 
> The Sydney protesters were met with a heavy police presence, including lines of mounted police officers, outside Broadway shopping centre before marching towards Town Hall.
> ...



Your brown shirt is in the mail.


----------



## macca (24 July 2021)

The Triangle said:


> Anti-lockdown protesters descend on Sydney
> 
> 
> The Sydney protesters were met with a heavy police presence, including lines of mounted police officers, outside Broadway shopping centre before marching towards Town Hall.
> ...




They are just getting some sunshine for their Vitamin D 

<<Other research has observed high rates of vitamin D deficiency in people with COVID-19 who experienced acute respiratory failure. These people had a significantly higher risk of dying. And a small, randomized study found that of 50 people hospitalized with COVID-19 who were given a high dose of a type of vitamin D (calcifediol), only one needed treatment in the intensive care unit. In contrast, among the 26 people with COVID-19 who weren't given calcifediol, 13 needed to be treated in the intensive care unit.>>









						Can vitamin D protect against the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)?
					

Find out what the research says about vitamin D and the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).




					www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

Here's the problem:
Scomo didn't provide financial assistance. He also rigged what assistance was there so that majority of small businesses can't access it. 

Liberals are gone next election as they are fking this year's covid response hard.
Those people protesting are a result of everything that happened. 
Response was slow at the start but was recoverable. Now it's just a growing mess. You can't just rely on vaccination if people are losing everything.

I'll say the protests will grow if they don't address the problem.


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Here's the problem:
> Scomo didn't provide financial assistance. He also rigged what assistance was there so that majority of small businesses can't access it.
> 
> Liberals are gone next election as they are fking this year's covid response hard.
> ...



I would say Scomo, has ofloaded some of the responsibility for the vaccine roll out to the States, while he turns his attention to the upcoming bushfire season, which the States cant handle, when he is away. Lets be honest he has  to cover a lot of issues.
Everyone else just says, blame him.lol


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I would say Scomo, has ofloaded some of the responsibility for the vaccine roll out to the States, while he turns his attention to the upcoming bushfire season, which the States cant handle, when he is away. Lets be honest he has  to cover a lot of issues.
> Everyone else just says, blame him.lol



I've had accountants saying they have left sole traders and smaller businesses to rot. If he doesn't move quickly he is toast. He is losing some core voters that won't come back for decades.


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I've had accountants saying they have left sole traders and smaller businesses to rot. If he doesn't move quickly he is toast. He is losing some core voters that won't come back for decades.



And?
 Labor lost a load of core voters last time, they will as you say get them back this time, then next time everyone feels let down by that govmnt.
Havent you noticed the majority of people are unhappy these days, they see on the muppet box what they cant afford and it is always someone elses fault.lol
Cyclical disappointment.
Maybe if we had someone like mother Teresa in charge all would be good, but I dont think so, some sector would be pizzed off about that, it is a fact of life at this point in time in Australia's history.
If you arent happy, say so and someone will be delegated to be responsible for your happiness, there is no reason in Australia in 2021, that everyone shouldn't be happy and if they arent it is a failure of the system.lol


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> And?
> Labor lost a load of core voters last time, they will as you say get them back this time, then next time everyone feels let down by that govmnt, havent you noticed the majority of people are unhappy these days, they see on the muppet box what they cant afford and it is always someone elses fault.lol
> Cyclical disappointment.
> Maybe if we had someone like mother Teresa in charge all would be good, but I dont think so, some sector would be pizzed off about that, it is a fact of life at this point in time in Australia's history.
> If you arent happy, say so and someone will be delegated to be responsible for your happines, there is no reason in Australia in 2021 that everyone shouldnt be happy and if they arent it is a failure of the system.lol



For nsw it will compound the problem.
And lets not forget that this all stems from sco Mo not helping Victoria during their last lockdown. Now he is trying to look partisan by not putting measures in for nsw.

Meanwhile people are going broke.
Same people end up protesting on the streets.
Covid spreads some more.
Lockdowns last longer.
More community anger.

Either you address the problem so as not to compound earlier mistakes. Or you crash and burn trying to do the minimum.

Locking all the Lebanese areas down in Sydney, while shutting down construction was a match to petrol without federal funding.

Scomo got an a+ in my opinion last year. This year was a complete fkup. Perhaps he was worried about the budget figures going into an election. Who knows. But it definitely was an odd direction.


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2021)

Well the States have been in charge of the way they handled their circumstances, they have all taken independent actions and when that action has been successful they take kudos for it.
Now there is a complete new strain and it has caught some on the hop, it is someone elses fault.
There are many of us that were screwed over last year, I know I got ff all from anyone be it govnmnt or dividends, now all of a sudden another sector is copping a bit of stress and it is a catastrophe, why?


----------



## moXJO (24 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> .
> There are many of us that were screwed over last year, I know I got ff all from anyone be it govnmnt or dividends, now all of a sudden another sector is copping a bit of stress and it is a catastrophe, why?



Mainly because they are locking people down with no ability to recoup costs. Given a lot of people survive week to week on their pay check. It will simply come down to self preservation (right or wrong).
Either our political masters start forward thinking, or end up with a riot.


----------



## sptrawler (24 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Mainly because they are locking people down with no ability to recoup costs. Given a lot of people survive week to week on their pay check. It will simply come down to self preservation (right or wrong).
> Either our political masters start forward thinking, or end up with a riot.



I just dont follow your thinking, many werent helped out last year, seriously many had to either use all their leave and long service leave at half pay to get through, or if they didnt work and werent eligible for welfare had to burn savings and sell $hit, I think this sort of stuff is going to happen until everyone is either vaccinated or has had the virus.
You cant just keep pumping money into it because it gets hard for some.
Lets not forget, this is the first time the govmnt has ever thrown money at a problem before.
The gfc $950 cheque to everyone on welfare, no jobkeeper, no doubling the dole.
Sooner or later the tap has to be shut off.
When you think about it, would Morrison have cpped any more flack, if he had just said we will send out a $950 cheque to everyone on welfare and everyone else, best of luck our prayers go with you?
The govrnmnt has copped $hit for the debt, now they cop it for not dishing out more.
Interesting, I guess it boils down to how much it affects the individual and in NSW where everyone has $hit loads of debt and or $hit loads of overheads the pain hits home harder and faster.
That is painfull and wouldnt be a great place to be at the moment. Terrible times, hopefully it passes quickly.


----------



## moXJO (25 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I just dont follow your thinking, many werent helped out last year, seriously many had to either use all their leave and long service leave at half pay to get through, or if they didnt work and werent eligible for welfare had to burn savings and sell $hit, I think this sort of stuff is going to happen until everyone is either vaccinated or has had the virus.
> You cant just keep pumping money into it because it gets hard for some.
> Lets not forget, this is the first time the govmnt has ever thrown money at a problem before.
> The gfc $950 cheque to everyone on welfare, no jobkeeper, no doubling the dole.
> ...



I'm talking small business paying commercial rents and not being able to open.  I'm not just talking workers, but those having to wear business expenses and severe loss of revenue.  

Accountants are currently lobbying to save a lot of their clients at the moment. So a call out to the unsung hero's of the past two years as the effort saved many families.

I thought they handled it well last year and defended the libs against the usual suspects.
I do think they are really dropping the ball now.


----------



## sptrawler (25 July 2021)

I understand, but this is going to go on for some time, so there are really two options just let it run amok or people just take a shot of what's available and move on.
I didn't want to have a poxy vaccine, but if I have another year like last year, my retirement plans are cactus, so I had AZ on Tuesday did I want it, no, but it is that or my savings are shot.


----------



## qldfrog (25 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I understand, but this is going to go on for some time, so there are really two options just let it run amok or people just take a shot of what's available and move on.
> I didn't want to have a poxy vaccine, but if I have another year like last year, my retirement plans are cactus, so I had AZ on Tuesday did I want it, no, but it is that or my savings are shot.



My worry is ,jabbed or not, does it and worse will it even make a difference in lockdowns?
As long as we stupidly stick to elimination,if an infected animal or illegal entry comes from png or jump from a plan,we will be in lock down again.
The big mistake of Morisson was the narrative going from smooth the curve to elimination.how can we change the narrative with 38% of citizens now thinking they might die of covid-19.
Look at Sweden now...clear who was right


----------



## pozindustrial (25 July 2021)

In my mind there is only one answer. Provide cheap, effective drugs for treatment like hydroxy+zinc and ivermectin to all hospitals and medical centres for prevention for those that want or need it, provide it to all patients for treatment which will save lives as has already been demonstrated and reduce hospital stays so the hospitals will not be overrun, allow as much infection in the community as possible so that most of the population has proper immunity, stop the drug companies from blocking these sensible approaches, stop telling everyone that vaccines are the only answer because they are highly problematic and not as effective as the immunity that develops after having the virus. Countries like Israel have proved that immunity difference now.
Open up travel and borders, stop lockdowns, open businesses and normal lifestyles again knowing that people will be far more protected from all variants than they will be from the many vaccines and boosters which take too long to roll out and are not as effective as natural immunity. Start educating people about how to increase their immunity to all diseases and stop the censoring of anything that is a threat to the big drug companies that are presently in control of our health.
This is what has been happening to humans since the beginning of life where we become unwell, the body develops immunity and we use anything that works to alleviate symptoms. The strong survive, the weak do not and we learn about what works. At present the strong survive, the weak do not and we learn nothing.
We have been fed fear from drug companies that you will not survive unless you take their drugs. They tell us that they are the only option, the only way to maintain good health, that unless you use their products you will die a horrible death too early in life which is complete bs. We are being led down the garden path until they will control every aspect of your health. We need to take back our power and look after ourselves as we always used to do. If you do not believe that just look at the complete mess the world is in at the moment. This mess has been engineered (treatment options, not the virus), it is not accidental.
This is the only answer as it has always been and people need to wake up. Stop believing the marketing, mainstream media who are funded by drug company advertising, look for the vested interests, think for yourselves.


----------



## rederob (25 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> In my mind there is only one answer. Provide cheap, effective drugs for treatment like hydroxy+zinc and ivermectin to all hospitals and medical centres for prevention for those that want or need it, provide it to all patients for treatment which will save lives as has already been demonstrated and reduce hospital stays so the hospitals will not be overrun, allow as much infection in the community as possible so that most of the population has proper immunity, stop the drug companies from blocking these sensible approaches, stop telling everyone that vaccines are the only answer because they are highly problematic and not as effective as the immunity that develops after having the virus. Countries like Israel have proved that immunity difference now.
> Open up travel and borders, stop lockdowns, open businesses and normal lifestyles again knowing that people will be far more protected from all variants than they will be from the many vaccines and boosters which take too long to roll out and are not as effective as natural immunity. Start educating people about how to increase their immunity to all diseases and stop the censoring of anything that is a threat to the big drug companies that are presently in control of our health.
> This is what has been happening to humans since the beginning of life where we become unwell, the body develops immunity and we use anything that works to alleviate symptoms. The strong survive, the weak do not and we learn about what works. At present the strong survive, the weak do not and we learn nothing.
> We have been fed fear from drug companies that you will not survive unless you take their drugs. They tell us that they are the only option, the only way to maintain good health, that unless you use their products you will die a horrible death too early in life which is complete bs. We are being led down the garden path until they will control every aspect of your health. We need to take back our power and look after ourselves as we always used to do. If you do not believe that just look at the complete mess the world is in at the moment. This mess has been engineered (treatment options, not the virus), it is not accidental.
> This is the only answer as it has always been and people need to wake up. Stop believing the marketing, mainstream media who are funded by drug company advertising, look for the vested interests, think for yourselves.



Not a single piece of data to support anything you said.
Instead you present lots of proven false ideas.  For example we don't build immunity to certain diseases- Ebola and MERS as recent examples - because they are too deadly.
As a treatment for severe covid symptoms oxygen and intubation are very effective, and so is proning, *not necessarily drug intervention*.
Your conspiracy theories are what drives greater concern and relies on the gullible accepting your baseless views.


----------



## IFocus (25 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Not a single piece of data to support anything you said.
> Instead you present lots of proven false ideas.  For example we don't build immunity to certain diseases- Ebola and MERS as recent examples - because they are too deadly.
> As a treatment for severe covid symptoms oxygen and intubation are very effective, and so is proning, *not necessarily drug intervention*.
> Your conspiracy theories are what drives greater concern and relies on the gullible accepting your baseless views.





The prone thing is interesting remember reading an article written by lady in the US both her and her husband (vets or some thing similar) had COVID, hospital space was limited so they got their own O2, O2 monitor, by using the prone position they could see the increase in O2, both survived but did get very ill.


----------



## sptrawler (25 July 2021)

qldfrog said:


> My worry is ,jabbed or not, does it and worse will it even make a difference in lockdowns?
> As long as we stupidly stick to elimination,if an infected animal or illegal entry comes from png or jump from a plan,we will be in lock down again.
> The big mistake of Morisson was the narrative going from smooth the curve to elimination.how can we change the narrative with 38% of citizens now thinking they might die of covid-19.
> Look at Sweden now...clear who was right



IMO it is getting to the point where it will be get a vaccination, and possibly have less severe symptoms, or don't get the vaccination and take your chances.
I think there will be a line drawn in the sand, the Premiers do exactly as they wish with regard lockdowns, then ask the Feds to prop up the financial impact.
Then the Feds get slammed for anything that doesn't go right, my guess is the Feds will say, now we have AZ and Phizer, take the shot or take your chances.
 When they couldn't get hold of Phizer, it wasn't an option, now supply is increasing I think a different tack will be taken.
I still know many who are just saying, "sod it I'm not having it", so obviously no amount of encouragement is going to change that.
Therefore do we have the Premiers shutting down the States at every outbreak and the feds have to crank up the money printing, or do we head toward learning to live with it?
This shutting down the Sydney construction has brought it to a head IMO, in W.A the mining kept everything going, so the effect in W.A was minimal.
In NSW construction is a massive employer, that will cause some severe financial stress, high payed workers with big loans getting stood down will have a backlash.
Just my opinion.


----------



## basilio (25 July 2021)

COVID is taking  it's toll in Sydney .  It;s not just older people falling sick and dying.









						Woman in her 30s dies, teen in intensive care as young people face 'higher risk'
					

A Nobel Prize-winning immunity and infection expert warns there is a "considerable risk" from the Delta variant of COVID-19 to young people after the death of a Sydney woman in her 30s.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## noirua (25 July 2021)

LA man who mocked Covid-19 vaccines dies of virus
					

Stephen Harmon, who opposed getting vaccinated, has died after a month-long struggle with the virus.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## noirua (25 July 2021)

This is just Middlesbrough a large town in the county of Yorkshire in England.  It shows how the Delta variant can lead to an explosion in the number of cases despite the UK having the worlds second best vaccination record :




__





						Coronavirus (COVID-19) | Middlesbrough Council
					

Find out about the symptoms of coronavirus and how to get a test, discover what support is available for residents and businesses, and view the latest daily coronavirus figures for Middlesbrough.




					www.middlesbrough.gov.uk


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Mainly because they are locking people down with no ability to recoup costs. Given a lot of people survive week to week on their pay check. It will simply come down to self preservation (right or wrong).
> Either our political masters start forward thinking, or end up with a riot.



I usually am on the same page as yourself, however now it sounds as though the media is saying just get the AZ if it's available, yet when Morrison said that several weeks ago he was lambasted, as usual.
The problem is, everyone has been trying to wedge Morrison, when really they should have been just looking out for Australia's best interest.
just my opinion.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 July 2021)

The sad human face of lockdowns that Ghenghis Dan will not acknowledge.


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The sad human face of lockdowns that Ghenghis Dan will not acknowledge.
> 
> View attachment 127951



So amazingly sad, I wonder if he was vaccinated, or had an underlying health condition, or just decided enough is enough.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> So amazingly sad, I wonder if he was vaccinated, or had an underlying health condition, or just decided enough is enough.



Don't think in this case  being vaccinated would have made any difference to the poor bugger.
Suicide always lacks logic and reasoning.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Don't think in this case  being vaccinated would have made any difference to the poor bugger.
> Suicide always lacks logic and reasoning.
> Mick



Absolutely and it is everyone's right to chose, sometimes the reason to keep going, is outweighed by effort required to keep going.
Many of us, have had to weigh up that decision, at some time in our lives.
I am noticing a much higher media coverage of full lockdowns and there repercussions, now that NSW is starting to have them, is that because full lockdowns are bad, or because of the media's Sydney centric obsession?


----------



## mullokintyre (26 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely and it is everyone's right to chose, sometimes the reason to keep going, is outweighed by effort required to keep going.
> Many of us, have had to weigh up that decision, at some time in our lives.
> I am noticing a much higher media coverage of full lockdowns and there repercussions, now that NSW is starting to have them, is that because full lockdowns are bad, or because of the media's Sydney centric obsession?



As someone from Regional NSW said to me some time ago, NSW stands for Newcastle, Sydney and Woolongong. Nothing else exists.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (26 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> As someone from Regional NSW said to me some time ago, NSW stands for Newcastle, Sydney and Woolongong. Nothing else exists.
> Mick



I tend to think that is how the rest of Australia see it, it seems that people in the Sydney area, see the rest of Australia as a life support system for them.
All policies have to be Sydney/ Melbourne centric, the rest of Australia can get stuffed, that's why I started the thread "should we sell W.A to China" a long time ago.
No one gives a $hit about W.A no one wants to live here, the media moved all its coverage over east, the political parties don't give a ratz ar$e about it, other than the mining income.
Now when Sydney starts to feel some actual personal financial pain, it is a national crisis, why? because they have a protected life selling into and buying into the ponzi scheme.
Well the virus ain't buying.
Another way of looking at it is, the Sydney/Melbourne people live with a 50% higher financial stress level than most of the rest of Australia and most of the media presenters live in Sydney/ Melbourne.
Maybe that is why they are so focused on Sydney/ Melbourne outcomes?


----------



## mullokintyre (27 July 2021)

Some may remember back in early 2020 that one of the experts, Neil Ferguson from the Imperial College in London, had used modelling to predict huge numbers of deaths from the coronavirus in the US and UK, 
A bit of examination of his models by American Institue for Economic Research has shown just how far out he was in his predictions.


> *Figure II: Performance of Imperial College Modeling in 4 Non-Lockdown Countries & the United States*
> 
> *Country (assumed R0 = 2.4)*_Imperial Model projected deaths – social distancing (lockdowns)__Imperial Model projected deaths -unmitigated spread__1 year actual deaths (3/26/21)__Overestimate, Lockdown scenario__Overestimate, Unmitigated scenario__Overestimate Percentage – Lockdowns__Overestimate Percentage – Unmitigated__Sweden_30,43466,39313,49616,93852,897126%392%_Taiwan_93,712179,8281093,702179,818937020%1798180%_South Korea_141,198301,3521,716139,482299,6368128%17461%_Japan_469,0641,055,4268,967460,0971,046,4595131%11670%_United States_1,099,0952,186,315563,285535,8101,623,03095%288%
> As can be seen, Imperial College wildly overstated the projected deaths in each country under both its “unmitigated” scenario and its NPI-reliant “social distancing” scenario – including by orders of magnitude in several cases.
> ...




Ferguson and the Imperial college had form on this.
In a  stats persons view 
From Statistical Modelling


> [Imperial College epidemiologist Neil] Ferguson was behind the disputed research that sparked the mass culling of eleven million sheep and cattle during the 2001 outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. He also predicted that up to 150,000 people could die. There were fewer than 200 deaths. . . .
> 
> In 2002, Ferguson predicted that up to 50,000 people would likely die from exposure to BSE (mad cow disease) in beef. In the U.K., there were only 177 deaths from BSE.
> 
> ...



So now it seems that the recent falls in cases in the UK seem to be a bit of a dissapointment to the expert epidemioligists.
from 


> The number of reported coronavirus cases in the UK has fallen for the sixth day in a row, offering further hope that the peak of a third wave has passed.
> There were 24,950 positive cases on Monday, a decrease of 15,000 from 39,950 last Monday and down from 54,000 on July 17. One model shows the R number at below one, suggesting that the pandemic is shrinking.
> 
> Boris Johnson and health officials were still urging caution, particularly as the impact of lifting legal limits on social contact in England last Monday has not yet been reflected in the data.
> ...



it just shows that scientists, experts, genii etc do not always get it right.
The problem lies in when to believe them, and when to look a little sceptically at what they have to offer.
The one thing you can be sure of, they are not universally correct.
Sometimes not even the consensus is correct.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (27 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I usually am on the same page as yourself, however now it sounds as though the media is saying just get the AZ if it's available, yet when Morrison said that several weeks ago he was lambasted, as usual.
> The problem is, everyone has been trying to wedge Morrison, when really they should have been just looking out for Australia's best interest.
> just my opinion.



I was on the same page here. So was Bas from memory. AZ was completely political and now the same twitter idiots have swung back and said to get it. Meh, nothing wrong with disagreements. 

 My thoughts: stopping people working while simultaneously altering stimulus. At a time when rents are $500+ and 2 bags of groceries will set you bag $100. For my way of thinking is setting up a hard landing. 

Then thinking people are not going to protest as they go broke. 
Bjiggles should have fought harder to ensure what she put in place was going to offset the damage. Locking down the Lebanese community was never going to go well. Then for some reason a lot of my Muslim friends are aggressively antivax.

Zero cases seems like a stupid strategy. But a few here were saying the obvious months ago. Get vaccinated for the inevitable shtstorm


----------



## bellenuit (27 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> it just shows that scientists, experts, genii etc do not always get it right.
> The problem lies in when to believe them, and when to look a little sceptically at what they have to offer.
> The one thing you can be sure of, they are not universally correct.
> Sometimes not even the consensus is correct.




Of course, but they were predictions based on the best information available at the time. One must view them cogniscent of the fact that being predictions, many things could go wrong or new factors could come into play. It was also a brand new virus and they had little knowledge of it and how it could mutate. They estimated over a million deaths in the US with lockdowns in place and it came in about half that. But what were the predictions of those who ignored science completely, people you seem to have some affinity with. 

It's just a Democratic hoax.
It will go away in a few days.
Once the election is over, you will hear nothing more about it.

I would much prefer a government to be overcautious on a new virus that could have proven more lethal and killed in the millions or spawned a mutation that was not controllable through vaccines or other means, than a government that stuck its head in the sand and pretended nothing was going on.


----------



## basilio (27 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Here's the Imperial College forecast for the UK based on various settings:
> View attachment 128003
> 
> On the basis of the above, the peak number of daily deaths would range from a high of 1900 (black line) to a low of 670 (blue line).
> ...




Thanks for that Redrob.   I have read a number of articles from the AIER website and frankly  their methodology is  pretty shonky.


----------



## mullokintyre (27 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> But what were the predictions of those who ignored science completely, people you seem to have some affinity with.



The UK based its first responses to Covid based on the  modelling that Ferguson provided. 
I am merely pointing out that was miles out. 
That does not mean I have an affinity to those who ignored science.
Its an inference that you have made.
I am a sceptical, cynical bugger who likes to see both sides of every argument.
Unfortunately, there seems to be a few folks on here who will only accept reviews, articles, models data analysis etc that suit there own particular bias.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (27 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Thanks for that Redrob.   I have read a number of articles from the AIER website and frankly  their methodology is  pretty shonky.



Did his post get deleted?


----------



## mullokintyre (27 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> I was on the same page here. So was Bas from memory. AZ was completely political and now the same twitter idiots have swung back and said to get it. Meh, nothing wrong with disagreements.
> 
> My thoughts: stopping people working while simultaneously altering stimulus. At a time when rents are $500+ and 2 bags of groceries will set you bag $100. For my way of thinking is setting up a hard landing.
> 
> ...



From my own experience, two of my four kids  were badly affected by the Victorian lockdowns, the other two  were able to keep working.
Oner of the two who were affected lost his job, indeed the entire business is he started with a mate is gone,  I am in a position to help him start agin if he thinks its worth it. At the moment he has no intention of going through it again.
Other son works in hospitality , so his job has been  on and off again for 18 months.
I find it instructive that the people most vociferous in business, the media, the government, the public service etc  rarely lost any money, much less their jobs.  The well paid invariably were able to work from home as if nothing happened, with their biggest concern being what  meals could be delivered to their "work from home". 
The people most exposed to the virus were those whose jobs could not be done from home, and almost invariably were the lower paid jobs.
The army of delivery drivers dropping all the amazon purchases to the those working from home, the food delivery folks,  the guys who manned the service stations, the mechanics, the furniture removers shifting the well to do from their city premises to their country/coastal/mountain retreat. These are the groups who suffered the most.
Then the elites wonder why they revolt. 
Mick


----------



## rederob (27 July 2021)

moXJO said:


> Did his post get deleted?



Yes.
Here's the Table that simplified Imperial College's calculation on deaths:




Table 4. Suppression strategies for GB. Impact of three different policy option (case isolation + home quarantine + social distancing, school/university closure + case isolation + social distancing, and all four interventions) on the total number of deaths seen in a 2-year period (left panel) and peak demand for ICU beds (centre panel). Social distancing and school/university closure are triggered at a national level when weekly numbers of new COVID-19 cases diagnosed in ICUs exceed the thresholds listed under “On trigger” and are suspended when weekly ICU cases drop to 25% of that trigger value. Other policies are assumed to start in late March and remain in place.

There are too many variables to make definitive statements about what worked best, especially as masks were never in the initial mix.
Some people want to use the extremely high "*Do nothing*" figures as a basis for claims, rather than look at what was forecast against various mitigation strategies.  That's not sound in that every nation has done something, not always soon enough, and not always enough!

(for those who don't read the linked paper, "on trigger" simply means how quickly mitigation strategies were "triggered" - based on people in ICU due to covid)


----------



## rederob (27 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Unfortunately, there seems to be a few folks on here who will only accept reviews, articles, models data analysis etc that suit there own particular bias.



Are you able to confirm that you understand the data you quote?
For example in your post the calculation for US "overestimated" (by Imperial College) is 536000 deaths, but on a worst case scenario Imperial College forecast that lockdowns reduce deaths by about one fifth of the "Do nothing" scenario, so their lockdown estimate is 2200000 x 0.2 = 440000 (compared to 1100000 in your post).
I clarified the meaning of the data in a table you presented regarding vaccinations in Israel, as *you *requested, and got no reply.


----------



## mullokintyre (27 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Are you able to confirm that you understand the data you quote?
> For example in your post the calculation for US "overestimated" (by Imperial College) is 536000 deaths, but on a worst case scenario Imperial College forecast that lockdowns reduce deaths by about one fifth of the "Do nothing" scenario, so their lockdown estimate is 2200000 x 0.2 = 440000 (compared to 1100000 in your post).
> I clarified the meaning of the data in a table you presented regarding vaccinations in Israel, as *you *requested, and got no reply.



It would not matter if I quoted God, you would dispute it.
Thats your perogative, but there are occasions when I just don't respond to trolls.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (27 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Exactly. Some good info being dug up. Pieces of a puzzle. World shutdown (to a lesser and greater extent) is not to be sneezed at, excuse the pun, so the more we see of the picture the better we can understand the context of what we are being told (or not told).
> 
> Yesterday Scomo said his decisions were taken from ATAGI recommendations. If you look it up you can see the large group of professionals on the board. There is also a link to their 'disclosures of interest' and most of those are 'sponsored travel' and presenting at conferences.
> 
> ...



And to back that up comes the news that private pathology groups in OZ  are vehemently opposed to anything except PCR tests here in OZ.
 From Todays Australian


> Private pathology giants have been accused of cartel-like behaviour in refusing to endorse alternatives to PCR Covid testing, unwilling to forgo huge profits in Medicare rebates since the start of the pandemic.
> 
> Private pathologists remain vehemently opposed to endorsing any alternatives to PCR testing, which generate a $100 Medicare rebate per test. Rapid antigen tests range from $10 to $15 per test but are not covered by Medicare.
> 
> ...




One of the issues with PCR tests is the number of cycles of the PCR test that are required to get a result.  According to a paper from National Library of medicine, running more than 24 cycles is prone to produce errors. 


> SARS-CoV-2 Vero cell infectivity was only observed for RT-PCR Ct < 24 and STT < 8 days. Infectivity of patients with Ct > 24 and duration of symptoms > 8 days may be low. This information can inform public health policy and guide clinical, infection control, and occupational health decisions. Further studies of larger size are needed.



Never let science, public health or ethics get between a large listed co and a buck.
mick


----------



## wayneL (28 July 2021)

Wakey wakey


----------



## rederob (28 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> One of the issues with PCR tests is the number of cycles of the PCR test that are required to get a result.  According to a paper from National Library of medicine, running more than 24 cycles is prone to produce errors.



Another misunderstanding of what is at issue.
Your linked paper had nothing to do with the accuracy of PCR tests.
The Ct or cycle threshold its the point at which the presence of CoV-SARS-2 is confirmed.  More and more cycles are run until a fluorescence  is strong enough to be detected, as explained here.  The higher the cycle count the smaller the viral load, and therefore the lower the probability of infectiousness.


mullokintyre said:


> Never let science, public health or ethics get between a large listed co and a buck.
> mick



ASF never lets a poor understanding of data and medical science stop people from posting, so beware of people who have a checquered record.


----------



## IFocus (30 July 2021)

This sort of resonated with me


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

There may be a pot of gold at the end of the AZ rainbow. 😂









						VaxLotto: Aussies could win $1m for getting vaccinated
					

Experts say 80 per cent of Australian's need to be vaccinated for the country to return to normal. Read how they plan to ensure that happens.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



from the article:
As Covid-19 case numbers continue to surge in NSW, the push to get Australians vaccinated is ramping up. However, not everyone wants the jab. To combat this, the Grattan Institute proposed a plan for a vaccination lottery — offering 10 jackpots of $1 million every week over an eight week period for vaccinated Australians only.


----------



## bellenuit (30 July 2021)

This is worrying for everyone.









						C.D.C. Internal Report Calls Delta Variant as Contagious as Chickenpox (Published 2021)
					

Infections in vaccinated Americans are rare, compared with those in unvaccinated people, the document said. But when they occur, vaccinated people may spread the virus just as easily.




					www.nytimes.com
				




C.D.C. Internal Report Calls Delta Variant as Contagious as Chickenpox​
The Delta variant is much more contagious, more likely to break through protections afforded by the vaccines and may cause more severe disease than all other known versions of the virus, according to an internal presentation circulated within the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky, the director of the agency, acknowledged on Tuesday that vaccinated people with so-called breakthrough infections of the Delta variant carry just as much virus in the nose and throat as unvaccinated people, and may spread it just as readily, if less often. 

But the internal document lays out a broader and even grimmer view of the variant.

The Delta variant is more transmissible than the viruses that cause MERS, SARS, Ebola, the common cold, the seasonal flu and smallpox, and it is as contagious as chickenpox, according to the document, a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times.

The immediate next step for the agency is to “acknowledge the war has changed,” the document said. Its contents were first reportedby The Washington Post on Thursday evening.

The document’s tone reflects alarm among C.D.C. scientists about Delta’s spread across the country, said a federal official who has seen the research described in the document. The agency is expected to publish additional data on the variant on Friday.


----------



## pozindustrial (30 July 2021)

bellenuit said:


> This is worrying for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So the Delta variant is more contagious and vaccinated people carry as much in the nose as unvaccinated people. All the rest of the fears are "maybes". I love the way the media, government and medical spokespeople create so much fear with 'maybes'. You could not make this stuff up.


----------



## bellenuit (30 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> So the Delta variant is more contagious and vaccinated people carry as much in the nose as unvaccinated people. All the rest of the fears are "maybes". I love the way the media, government and medical spokespeople create so much fear with 'maybes'. You could not make this stuff up.




Yes, *IF* they get infected and that is the big difference.


----------



## wayneL (30 July 2021)

wayneL said:


> It's no big deal unless you have a vulnerability.... ie poor health already



And it seems that, unverified, vaccinated may have as much if not more chance of being infected


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

And finally the Government has woken up to the fact, that you can't put a timeline on people who have choices, so now the media has to find another angle. 🤣








						PM says 80 per cent of Australians must be vaccinated before lockdowns end
					

The Prime Minister says 70 per cent of eligible Australians will need to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 for the country to begin reopening and returning to normal, and 80 per cent to end lockdowns.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						PM says timeline for reaching vaccination goal is 'up to us as Australians'  — as it happened
					

Prime Minister Scott Morrison says state and territory governments have agreed "in principle" to a vaccination target plan at today's National Cabinet meeting.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## pozindustrial (30 July 2021)

As far as I am concerned the chickens are coming home to roost with the whole Covid narrative and misinformation which aligns with today’s quick fix mentality and bullying tactics of the strongly opinionated.
It is laughable that those who pride themselves on following the best advice from recognised experts never realise that simply buying some of those experts can scam them so easily.
But that practice has been taken to a whole new level with this pandemic!
Vaccines have never been the answer to good health and longevity and have always been associated with terrible side effects that have been downplayed. Covid vaccines have the honour of being responsible for more deaths than all the vaccines in history before their introduction yet people believe the ‘marketing’ that they are safe, effective and the road out of lockdowns.
60% of hospital patients with Covid in UK & Israel have been vaccinated, the vast majority with both jabs. Delta variant has been blamed which means that the Covid vaccine is ineffective and now Pfizer is ‘marketing’ a booster. Vaccines are also being targeted at children and there is talk of a seasonal jab every year.
Follow the money! This is about money, not health! Covid is real, but vaccines being the rescue is a myth. They may help, but they are not the answer.
It is simply entrapment of humans for incredible riches.
The misinformation that no other treatment is possible is nothing short of criminal and that people who regard themselves as properly informed believe it is a joke.
This is how it happens today with propaganda and censorship. Wake up.








						Dr. Mercola's Censored Library (Private Membership)
					

Join the private membership of Dr. Mercola's Censored Library today to begin accessing must-read information you won't find anywhere else. Click to read Dr. Mercola's Censored Library (Private Membership), by Dr. Joseph Mercola, a Substack publication with hundreds of thousands of readers.




					articles.mercola.com


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> As far as I am concerned the chickens are coming home to roost with the whole Covid narrative and misinformation which aligns with today’s quick fix mentality and bullying tactics of the strongly opinionated.
> It is laughable that those who pride themselves on following the best advice from recognised experts never realise that simply buying some of those experts can scam them so easily.
> But that practice has been taken to a whole new level with this pandemic!
> Vaccines have never been the answer to good health and longevity and have always been associated with terrible side effects that have been downplayed. Covid vaccines have the honour of being responsible for more deaths than all the vaccines in history before their introduction yet people believe the ‘marketing’ that they are safe, effective and the road out of lockdowns.
> ...



In a lot of ways, it is what it is, if the whole thing is a hoax it really doesn't matter, what matters is what you personally think is the right choice for you.
That boils down to a lot of things, age, health, aspirations, travel plans, travel hopes, work requirements, personal beliefs, religious beliefs etc, there isn't one size fits all in this.


----------



## pozindustrial (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> In a lot of ways, it is what it is, if the whole thing is a hoax it really doesn't matter, what matters is what you personally think is the right choice for you.
> That boils down to a lot of things, age, health, aspirations, travel plans, travel hopes, work requirements, personal beliefs, religious beliefs etc, there isn't one size fits all in this.



Totally agree (which may surprise some) I just get annoyed with those that think only one answer exists. ie vaccines


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Totally agree (which may surprise some) I just get annoyed with those that think only one answer exists. ie vaccines



I have followed your line of reasoning and I found nothing wrong with it, there isn't a definitive right or wrong, there is only personal choice.
I've been reluctant and my other half is well versed in medicine, but we have taken the choice to go with the flow as age isn't on our side and we still have a lot of the World we want to see.
My best mate doesn't want to travel, same age as me, he is waiting as long as possible, being in W.A, that could well be a long time.
That is the great thing about Australia, you do have choices, even though some will still try and force their opinion. 
The thing that is interesting, is Australians acceptance to take what the media say as gospel, when the media is very quick to say we are only repeating experts advice yet they trawl to find advice that supports sensational headlines IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

By the way, forgot to mention, my best mate is an essential worker and could have had the vaccine ages ago, just chose not to.
He has worked non stop since the first outbreak over a year ago, he works on waste management, 'garbo' but not being funny, he does it from choice. I did my apprenticeship with him, nicest guy you would ever meet. 🤣


----------



## rederob (30 July 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> As far as I am concerned the chickens are coming home to roost with the whole Covid narrative and misinformation which aligns with today’s quick fix mentality and bullying tactics of the strongly opinionated.



Evidence?


pozindustrial said:


> It is laughable that those who pride themselves on following the best advice from recognised experts never realise that simply buying some of those experts can scam them so easily.



Evidence?


pozindustrial said:


> But that practice has been taken to a whole new level with this pandemic!



For example?


pozindustrial said:


> Vaccines have never been the answer to good health and longevity and have always been associated with terrible side effects that have been downplayed.



False.
The purpose of vaccines is to stave off disease and has nothing to do with good health per se. 
And while some vaccines have not gone to plan, the overall benefits are beyond dispute in medical science.


pozindustrial said:


> Covid vaccines have the honour of being responsible for more deaths than all the vaccines in history before their introduction yet people believe the ‘marketing’ that they are safe, effective and the road out of lockdowns.



Baseless claim.  


pozindustrial said:


> 60% of hospital patients with Covid in UK & Israel have been vaccinated, the vast majority with both jabs. Delta variant has been blamed which means that the Covid vaccine is ineffective and now Pfizer is ‘marketing’ a booster. Vaccines are also being targeted at children and there is talk of a seasonal jab every year.



So what?


pozindustrial said:


> Follow the money! This is about money, not health! Covid is real, but vaccines being the rescue is a myth.



Zero evidence, again!


pozindustrial said:


> It is simply entrapment of humans for incredible riches.



Evidence?


pozindustrial said:


> The misinformation that no other treatment is possible is nothing short of criminal and that people who regard themselves as properly informed believe it is a joke.



A totally false claim.  Treatment regimes are available to anyone who can google!


pozindustrial said:


> This is how it happens today with propaganda and censorship. Wake up.



I agree.  You need to wake up from your baseless propaganda and decision to block my posts so you can bathe in ignorance.


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Evidence?
> 
> Evidence?
> 
> ...



It's not a competition, it's a forum.


----------



## rederob (31 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It's not a competition, it's a forum.



In the shares threads we don't let baseless or false claims about stock performance or companies go unchallenged, so why should this one be different?


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

rederob said:


> In the shares threads we don't let baseless or false claims about stock performance or companies go unchallenged, so why should this one be different?



Because it is a chat forum, where it isn't imperative that the answer be definitive or even accurate, a bit like the 6 o'clock news, Bolt or the project, you know where people just say what they think and others either laugh at it, argue about it or ignore it.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

Businesses to get Vaccine for employees and their families, it will be interesting to see how this goes down.








						Businesses to take unused AstraZeneca doses to boost rollout
					

Companies will use their own health teams to distribute AstraZeneca vaccines not being taken by state governments, doctors and pharmacies.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Australia’s biggest companies will set up schemes to vaccinate employees and their families with unallocated vaccines in a bid to boost the national rollout and help end sweeping lockdowns.

Supplies of the AstraZeneca vaccine are the most readily available, with roughly 3 million doses of that vaccine sitting in clinics or warehouses across the country as CSL in Melbourne continues to produce about 1 million doses per week.

Data revealed to _The Sydney Morning Herald_ and _The Age_ shows NSW has ordered just 17 per cent of the AstraZeneca doses available to the state, the lowest rate of any state or territory. Of the 964,920 doses available to NSW to week 25, the state had ordered 164,020 doses. Victoria has ordered 77 per cent, or 664,480 doses, of the AstraZeneca allotted to the state.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

It is good to see the medical profession starting to get vocal, about the political football that has been going on.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07...onal-approach-to-covid-19-lockdowns/100338080
From the article:
Health experts say Australia's states should have a uniform response to dealing with COVID-19 outbreaks and are accusing some jurisdictions — including New South Wales — of prioritising politics over health.

Since the pandemic began, state and territory leaders have called lockdowns at different stages of outbreaks and with varying rules, restrictions and definitions of essential work.

Epidemiologist and Professor of International Health at the Burnet Institute, Michael Toole, said the differing pandemic responses of various states was confusing and problematic.

"I doubt if any chief health officer in Australia really has a different view to how to respond," he said.

"But they are operating in very different political contexts


----------



## rederob (31 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Because it is a chat forum, where it isn't imperative that the answer be definitive or even accurate, a bit like the 6 o'clock news, Bolt or the project, you know where people just say what they think and others either laugh at it, argue about it or ignore it.



Oh, so it's ok to spread lies and disinformation here?
Forums give us a chance to directly challenge ignorance that we don't have with _The Bolt Report_ or other media.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Oh, so it's ok to spread lies and disinformation here?
> Forums give us a chance to directly challenge ignorance that we don't have with _The Bolt Report_ or other media.



You are never going to stop lies and disinformation, but a lot of disinformation and lies are fought with disinformation, vagueness, misrepresentation and lies, so which side is right? Some times things just have to be let go IMO.


----------



## rederob (31 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You are never going to stop lies and disinformation, but a lot of disinformation and lies are fought with disinformation, vagueness, misrepresentation and lies, so which side is right? Some times things just have to be let go IMO.



When people make false and misleading claims about the value of vaccinations to communities it endangers life.
Some people - like me - challenge that level of ignorance rather than let it slide.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

rederob said:


> When people make false and misleading claims about the value of vaccinations to communities it endangers life.
> Some people - like me - challenge that level of ignorance rather than let it slide.



I don't profess to be sufficiently expert in vaccines to challenge people on the subject and I would only be repeating what I had read or heard and taken as being correct  as my evidence. Therefore I let it slide.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2021)

The most successful multi cultural country in the world and yet we still have certain parts of it that can't or don't want to cooperate at least by learning the language and having the comprehension skills to follow instructions that the rest of us have to.

What happened to English and comprehension tests before people are allowed into the country ?

A multicultural failure if you ask me.


----------



## rederob (31 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I don't profess to be sufficiently expert in vaccines to challenge people on the subject and I would only be repeating what I had read or heard and taken as being correct  as my evidence. Therefore I let it slide.



There is a wealth of data.
@bellenuit regularly posts it, as do I.
On the specific matter of "outbreaks" you can choose to rely on what science and medical experts say, or you can invent your own narrative.

With the Delta variant what we can be sure of is that it is very infectious.  And, if it is the case that viral load is not reduced by vaccination, then Morrison's idea that lockdowns can be reduced at 70%, and further again at 80%, is out the window: infections will continue irrespective of the vaccination rate.


----------



## IFocus (31 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It's not a competition, it's a forum.





Exactly hence Robs reply, its a forum of differing opinions (like ar$e holes every one has one and they all stink) however evidence is really handy to support a given opinion and adds objectivity to the discussion.

Everything is up for question no matter who.

COVID has affected all walks and ways of life and cuts through the various ideological divides, politicians giving a very good insight to general COVID discussions selectively quoting health advice they like ignoring parts the don't.

Whether the actions support moneyed interests / ideological beliefs or is in the publics best interests is the ongoing question. I would note look at the US for answers given the shocking behaviour going on there currently.

This of course flows onto vaccinations again selective positions taken based often on political ideology or feeding fear rather than any thing to do with epidemiology (which I note is never referenced )

Now we have demonstrators proud to spread COVID what next?


----------



## IFocus (31 July 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The most successful multi cultural country in the world and yet we still have certain parts of it that can't or don't want to cooperate at least by learning the language and having the comprehension skills to follow instructions that the rest of us have to.
> 
> What happened to English and comprehension tests before people are allowed into the country ?
> 
> A multicultural failure if you ask me.




Plenty of innuendo about the migrant populations around Sydney, language / culture  likely plays a part but I wonder if a larger % are also causal, gig economy, part time etc that had to go to work to eat and needed support to stay home?


----------



## SirRumpole (31 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Plenty of innuendo about the migrant populations around Sydney, language / culture  likely plays a part but I wonder if a larger % are also causal, gig economy, part time etc that had to go to work to eat and needed support to stay home?




A valid point of course, but understanding the language would be a good start and might reduce the extra resources that has to be put in to get the message across.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Now we have demonstrators proud to spread COVID what next?



What next, another opinion, no doubt.


----------



## wayneL (31 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> Now we have demonstrators proud to spread COVID what next?




Like BLM, Extinction Rebellion, and a host of others?

Some animals more equal than others?


----------



## basilio (31 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Because it is a chat forum, where it isn't imperative that the answer be definitive or even accurate, a bit like the 6 o'clock news, Bolt or the project, you know where people just say what they think and others either laugh at it, argue about it or ignore it.




Maybe... On some topics. Like which is the best football team.  Who do we think should win The Farmers wants a wife .  Which car is the best.

All opinion based. All just chat.

*I don't think this thread comes under that heading*. COVID is deadly serious. One of the most dangerous aspects in my mind is the misinformation, misunderstanding and downright lies that are spread about COVID and how to tackle it. So allowing/encouraging quite dangerously wrong information to be promoted or accepted is, in my mind, not cool.


----------



## macca (31 July 2021)

This would indicate that it is pointless separating those that are vaccinated from those that aren't. 

The viral load is the same so everyone is still contagious.

Offer vaccination to those that want it then carry on with masks and social distancing seems the only way to handle it


<<Scientists who studied a big COVID-19 outbreak in the US state of Massachusetts concluded that vaccinated people who got so-called breakthrough infections carried about the same amount of the coronavirus as those who did not get the shots.
Health officials released details of that research, which was key in this week's decision by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to recommend that vaccinated people return to wearing masks indoors in parts of the US where the Delta variant is fuelling infection surges.>>









						Vaccinated people can carry as much Delta variant COVID-19 as others, US study finds
					






					www.9news.com.au


----------



## wayneL (31 July 2021)

The most amazing arrogance of the above comment is in believing that only one side (his side) has the received truth.


----------



## macca (31 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Maybe... On some topics. Like which is the best football team.  Who do we think should win The Farmers wants a wife .  Which car is the best.
> 
> All opinion based. All just chat.
> 
> *I don't think this thread comes under that heading*. COVID is deadly serious. One of the most dangerous aspects in my mind is the misinformation, misunderstanding and downright lies that are spread about COVID and how to tackle it. So allowing/encouraging quite dangerously wrong information to be promoted or accepted is, in my mind, not cool.




I agree Baz but the problem is that the lies are mainly about the fact that the vaccine is the Only way to go which is simply not true.

Vaccinating people is fine if they want it but Why is there no effort to find some treatment that will ease symptoms.

I have been on this planet a long time and Every Single time I have been to the Doctor he wants to write a prescription "to ease my symptoms or to treat my pain"

No major medical authority was interested in trying to find something that would help with Covid, Why not ?

Since day one of Covid we were "getting a vaccine" so go home and die while we wait for the vaccine.

I find that attitude abhorrent

So do others, that is what encourages conspiracy theories, why can we not know the details of age, health etc of those who have died.

It is very apparent OS that those people of a certain religion who get very little sunshine are having an awful run with Covid, the Doctors know this so why not tell people to get out into the sun.

It is this lack of helpful hints and sensible practical suggestions that many find odd, surely the Docs can do better than this


----------



## macca (31 July 2021)

In support of my statement about getting some sun, news from Germany

<<According to my analysis, more than 90 percent of the intubated, most seriously ill patients always had a migrant background,” he said.>>









						Immigrants ‘overrepresented’ in severely ill COVID-19 patients in Germany
					

LONDON: More than 90 percent of severely ill COVID-19 patients in Germany have a “migrant background,” a leading doctor has said, amid concerns that minority ethnic groups require more support in the fight against the virus.




					www.arabnews.com


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

basilio said:


> Maybe... On some topics. Like which is the best football team.  Who do we think should win The Farmers wants a wife .  Which car is the best.
> 
> All opinion based. All just chat.
> 
> *I don't think this thread comes under that heading*. COVID is deadly serious. One of the most dangerous aspects in my mind is the misinformation, misunderstanding and downright lies that are spread about COVID and how to tackle it. So allowing/encouraging quite dangerously wrong information to be promoted or accepted is, in my mind, not cool.



I've never seen shouting at people and telling them they are wrong and I am right, so do as you're told, being a very successful method.
But then again I was never a teacher, only a supervisor of adults. 
Where has all the inclusiveness gone? 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

Post #104, way back in Feb 2020.


sptrawler said:


> I think the real problem begins, if it gets a hold in Africa, imagine if it mutates with some of the horrible diseases there. The transmission skills of this thing, with the fatality ability of some really nasty disease, doesn't bear thinking about IMO.



And now what are we hearing, there is nothing that sells news, better than bad news.








						'30 times more deadly': Fears Covid variants could merge
					

As countries around the world grapple with the Delta Covid variant, experts are warning it could get much worse. Read more.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:
_Multiple variants of coronavirus such as Alpha, Beta or Delta could merge into one far deadlier variant over time, a research paper published this week by the UK’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) says.

If that occurs, Covid could turn into something similar to Middle East respiratory syndrome or MERS, which had a 35 per cent fatality rate, the paper claimed.
MERS was first found in Saudi Arabia in 2012.
SAGE warned it is a “realistic possibility” and added that “even in the face of vaccination” morbidity and mortality rates would increase because vaccines “do not fully prevent infection in most individuals”.

Dr Simon Clarke, an associate professor in cellular microbiology, University of Reading, told The Sun while it is possible, it is not inevitable.
“While it is rare for two viruses to combine, it does happen, it’s called a ‘recombination event’ and is perfectly possible. It’s well documented with flu, for instance,” he said.

“There are multiple potential outcomes from this, but there’s no reason why it could not generate a more lethal variant_.”


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

It sounds as though NSW, has some major issues.








						COVID infections being hidden from NSW health authorities as state records 210 new cases
					

NSW Health Minister Brad Hazzard says people critically ill with COVID-19 are being hidden from authorities, as the state records another death and 210 new infections.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
NSW Health has confirmed four people with COVID-19 have died at home.


----------



## basilio (1 August 2021)

Sky News Australia banned from YouTube for seven days over Covid misinformation​Digital giant issues strike after channel posted videos denying the existence of disease and encouraging people to use discredited medication

Sky News Australia has been banned from uploading content to YouTube for seven days after violating its medical misinformation policies by posting numerous videos which denied the existence of Covid-19 or encouraged people to use hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin.

..YouTube has not disclosed which Sky News program the videos were from but said there were “numerous” offending videos which have now been removed.

...“We have clear and established Covid-19 medical misinformation policies based on local and global health authority guidance, to prevent the spread of Covid-19 misinformation that could cause real-world harm,” a YouTube spokesperson told Guardian Australia.

“We apply our policies equally for everyone regardless of uploader, and in accordance with these policies and our long-standing strikes system, removed videos from and issued a strike to Sky News Australia’s channel.

“Specifically, we don’t allow content that denies the existence of Covid-19 or that encourages people to use hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin to treat or prevent the virus. We do allow for videos that have sufficient countervailing context, which the violative videos did not provide.”

*.,,One of the most popular videos, with 4.6m views, is Jones’s “Australians must know the truth – this virus is not a pandemic”, *which was posted at the height of the pandemic last year.

On 19 July, Sky News was forced to apologise for a Jones interview with MP Craig Kelly in which they claimed the Delta variant is not dangerous and vaccines won’t help you. The video was removed and a lengthy apology was published on the Sky News website.









						Sky News Australia banned from YouTube for seven days over Covid misinformation
					

Digital giant issues strike after channel posted videos denying the existence of disease and encouraging people to use discredited medication




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## IFocus (1 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Like BLM, Extinction Rebellion, and a host of others?
> 
> Some animals more equal than others?





Its a shame you cannot include union conflict in your list, 1st they came for the unionist...


----------



## basilio (2 August 2021)

Delta Covid for  the young and healthy.

Sydney couple who contracted COVID-19 warn others to take the virus seriously after both were hospitalised​By Bellinda Kontominas
Posted 4h ago4 hours ago, updated 1h ago1 hours ago






 Melissa Green was in hospital for a week and narrowly avoided ICU after contracting COVID-19.(
Facebook: Melissa Green
)
Share


The two days after Melissa Green was admitted to hospital with the deadly COVID-19 Delta variant were without doubt "the worst" of her life.
"I had temperatures over 40 degrees. I had the oxygen on me," the 39-year-old said.
"I actually was really scared there for about 30 hours, just because I've never ever experienced anything like that in my life. I was literally delirious."
LIVE UPDATES: Read our blog for the latest news on the COVID-19 pandemic
Ms Green, from Riverwood in Sydney's south-west, contracted COVID-19 two days after her partner Dion Mason, 40, tested positive, on July 13. The couple's three-year-old daughter, Lola, also tested positive.

Both Ms Green's and Mr Mason's initial symptoms included bad headaches, chills and muscle aches but about six days into the infection, both deteriorated significantly.









						'I was delirious': How fit and healthy Melissa was bowled over by COVID-19
					

Melissa Green and her partner Dion Mason are young and fit, but both ended up in hospital after contracting COVID-19, which he describes as feeling like "a 200-kilogram man standing on your chest".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Its a shame you cannot include union conflict in your list, 1st they came for the unionist...



There were some union members at the nsw rally. The media decided to target it all as anti-vax. Truth is there were a lot of workers and business owners going to the wall that attended.


----------



## basilio (2 August 2021)

Options on how to come out of COVID as we attempt to mass vaccinate









						Australia needs a Covid plan B that gives more freedom to the vaccinated | Liz Hicks and Greg Dore
					

Privileges for the double-jabbed could include home quarantine, vaccination passports and exemption from state border closures




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Options on how to come out of COVID as we attempt to mass vaccinate
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can still catch it and spread it. Similar to how Israel got another wave among its vaccinated 60 yo. Everyone thought they were immune and took risks.

I like how "Germany" came up with this idea. Jeez I wonder how the Germans came up with that...


----------



## rederob (2 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> You can still catch it and spread it.



True, but at a  small fraction of the rate of those not vaccinated:







moXJO said:


> Similar to how Israel got another wave among its vaccinated 60 yo. Everyone thought they were immune and took risks.



Except that it is a complete misunderstanding of data, as it reflects the statistical inevitability of breakthrough infections when most of the population is vaccinated:




Looks more like a ripple than a wave for the older aged.


moXJO said:


> I like how "Germany" came up with this idea. Jeez I wonder how the Germans came up with that...



I think they used basic maths.
The concept of vaccine passports/privileges has widespread appeal.


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

I think the passport isnt far away, probably as soon as the current panic rush subsides.


----------



## IFocus (2 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> There were some union members at the nsw rally. The media decided to target it all as anti-vax. Truth is there were a lot of workers and business owners going to the wall that attended.




Possible members were there but my point was unions cannot protest any more without deregistration, fines , severe penalties etc  (yeah with permits, certain times places etc) freedom of speech and right to protest was muzzled long ago cheered on by the right.


----------



## moXJO (2 August 2021)

rederob said:


> True, but at a  small fraction of the rate of those not vaccinated:
> View attachment 128474
> 
> 
> ...



More on Israel later. But over a certain age vaccinated had caught it more than unvaccinated. They are  getting a third shot of vax as we speak due to efficiency dropping.

It's the risks associated with "superman" syndrome that has me worried in Australia. I  mean we don't really give a fck now except  for a hard core group of bootlegging authoritarians in the making.
 Also anyone that was vaccinated earlier not having the protection they once had.

Right now not everyone can get the vaccine so you are just as likely to cause greater unrest.
There is already a growing divide in the community. Putting people even more offside will justify their struggle against government.

Denial of anyone's rights in such a fashion seems fascist. Considering the majority of the population just get the sniffles, it seems to be overreach.
Are we really considering putting a yellow star on those not wanting to get vaxxed?

I get it "big stick" persuasion. Government would be loving it until the crowd turns. Scomo wouldn't be able to implement it imo. The left hate him, but love the idea of the elitist tag a vax passport would bring, but hate scomo....
No doubt for overseas travel it will become a must have. But beyond that and politicians will need 24h security as the NSW mob doesn't need much more to whip it in a frenzy.

Australia location also plays in our favor. How about anyone coming into the country need to be vaccinated. We don't have the shared borders Europe does.

I'm not sure scomo can do math?


----------



## macca (2 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> More on Israel later. But over a certain age vaccinated had caught it more than unvaccinated. They are  getting a third shot of vax as we speak due to efficiency dropping.
> 
> It's the risks associated with "superman" syndrome that has me worried in Australia. I  mean we don't really give a fck now except  for a hard core group of bootlegging authoritarians in the making.
> Also anyone that was vaccinated earlier not having the protection they once had.
> ...




And as confirmed by the CDC in USA, vaccinated or not, you can still be full of Covid ready to spread it around.

In fact, according to the gospel, if you are vaccinated you won't get as sick, so they will continue to circulate and work. Those who are not vaccinated "should" feel sick and would be more likely to stay at home.

So we could end up with "super spreaders" those that are Covid positive but feel OK


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> I get it "big stick" persuasion. Government would be loving it until the crowd turns. Scomo wouldn't be able to implement it imo. The left hate him, but love the idea of the elitist tag a vax passport would bring, but hate scomo....



Probably the very reason that any draconian stuff is being left to the States, it is a no win for Scomo, as was proven when he suggested younger people should take the AZ the media were all over it.
Now the States are saying it, the media are supporting it, because the States that are most authoritarian are actually Labor States.
They say Albo is making himself a small target, I think Scomo is trying to follow suit, Scomo is walking a very fine line with the media.
Vaccine hesitancy has started to take the blame, over lack of supply, I think Scomo will miss a bullet on that one.
What has happened now is those who wanted it, got it, those who didn't want it but now are reconsidering, are finding the supply is there.
That translates to voters who wanted it initially got it, those who want it now are getting it, the media are the ones who trumped up the story, I don't think the voters buy it. 
It is going to be the best election ever, Albo and Scomo are two of the cagiest pollies in a long time, it should be great IMO.


----------



## bellenuit (2 August 2021)

macca said:


> In fact, according to the gospel, if you are vaccinated you won't get as sick, so they will continue to circulate and work. Those who are not vaccinated "should" feel sick and would be more likely to stay at home.




Yes, but according to the gospel you are also substantially less likely to get infected if you are vaccinated. So getting vaccinated is still the best course of action, but they need a cheap easy to use test so that those vaccinated can see if they are one of the few who have got a breakthrough infection.

Also the unvaccinated cannot be relied upon to take the correct action and stay at home as many are in the category that believe there is no virus, or that it is just a flu, or that taking any preventative action is an affront to their liberty.


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> They say Albo is making himself a small target, I think Scomo is trying to follow suit, Scomo is walking a very fine line with the media.
> Vaccine hesitancy has started to take the blame, over lack of supply, I think Scomo will miss a bullet on that one.
> What has happened now is those who wanted it, got it, those who didn't want it but now are reconsidering, are finding the supply is there.
> That translates to voters who wanted it initially got it, those who want it now are getting it, the media are the ones who trumped up the story, I don't think the voters buy it.



As if on cue:








						'Silver lining': Surging Covid infections could assist NSW lockdown exit
					

The federal government reportedly believes NSW could end lockdown in just five weeks. Read more about the state's vaccine push.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:
Yet there was a sense of optimism amid the misery, with Premier Gladys Berejiklian hailing those who have come out for the vaccine in impressive rates.


*More than 82,000 people in NSW received the jab in the 24 hours to Saturday evening.

Ms Berejiklian believes such a rate is sustainable and says half a million jabs can be administered every week* in what she called "our ticket to freedom".

*The Delta outbreak in NSW has seen vaccine hesitancy in Australia plummet from 33 per cent to 21.5 per cent in just two months*, the Melbourne Institute says.


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Probably the very reason that any draconian stuff is being left to the States, it is a no win for Scomo, as was proven when he suggested younger people should take the AZ the media were all over it.
> Now the States are saying it, the media are supporting it, because the States that are most authoritarian are actually Labor States.
> They say Albo is making himself a small target, I think Scomo is trying to follow suit, Scomo is walking a very fine line with the media.



Well here we go, just posted on the W.A news:








						Un-jabbed police to be forced to wear masks
					

WA Police officers who refuse to get vaccinated against COVID-19 will be forced to wear face masks at all times while on duty, the State’s top cop has announced.




					thewest.com.au
				




I'm not agreeing, or disagreeing, just proving a point.


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, but according to the gospel you are also substantially less likely to get infected if you are vaccinated. So getting vaccinated is still the best course of action, but they need a cheap easy to use test so that those vaccinated can see if they are one of the few who have got a breakthrough infection.
> 
> Also the unvaccinated cannot be relied upon to take the correct action and stay at home as many are in the category that believe there is no virus, or that it is just a flu, or that taking any preventative action is an affront to their liberty.



I'd be interested in the infection % out of Israel against some of the newer stuff. I saw an extremely low protection figure but dismissed it at the time as unreliable or skewed.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2021)

Articles like this in the ABC, should further accelerate the uptake of the vaccine.








						The Delta variant is more infectious. Now experts say it has something else that makes it a 'double whammy'
					

Health experts prepare for a "nightmare scenario" in Australia, with early data from both overseas examples and the NSW outbreak showing the Delta strain is more severe as well as being harder to contain.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (3 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Articles like this in the ABC, should further accelerate the uptake of the vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But there is an even better option, and it's not available!
We asked about this option over a month ago and were told no, and it's still *no *today.
It does not make sense!


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2021)

rederob said:


> But there is an even better option, and it's not available!
> We asked about this option over a month ago and were told no, and it's still *no *today.
> It does not make sense!



I wonder if the TGA has approved it yet?


----------



## rederob (3 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder if the TGA has approved it yet?



The vaccines are already approved, so this seems to be an issue for ATAGI.
However, I think ATAGI is only "advisory," so States should be able to approve vaccine mixes.


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2021)

I asked the nurses about 8 weeks between the vax and mixing. They seem bound by company rules around use around each vax. Possibly lawsuits as well I suppose.
She did state that the recommendation from the book was what they used, she seemed well versed in it.

A shame as I'd have gone with mixing the vax and spread it further out then 3 weeks.


----------



## rederob (3 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> I asked the nurses about 8 weeks between the vax and mixing. They seem bound by company rules around use around each vax. Possibly lawsuits as well I suppose.
> She did state that the recommendation from the book was what they used, she seemed well versed in it.
> 
> A shame as I'd have gone with mixing the vax and spread it further out then 3 weeks.



The thing is that the AZ antibody response increases over time, so those getting an AZ jab now would likely develop a much stronger antibody response with a second dose of Pfizer in October or later when we know Pfizer supplies also increase dramatically.


----------



## moXJO (3 August 2021)

rederob said:


> The thing is that the AZ antibody response increases over time, so those getting an AZ jab now would likely develop a much stronger antibody response with a second dose of Pfizer in October or later when we know Pfizer supplies also increase dramatically.



Its the smart choice. They wouldn't do it where I was. Not sure if the gp might do it differently. 
But let's face it Australian governments are not known for thinking outside of the box.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2021)

rederob said:


> The thing is that the AZ antibody response increases over time, so those getting an AZ jab now would likely develop a much stronger antibody response with a second dose of Pfizer in October or later when we know Pfizer supplies also increase dramatically.



It will be interesting to see if that option is available, by then.


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2021)

Things must be getting worrying, the push to AZ is intensifying. Interesting that the CHO hadn't had a shot until recently. 








						Queensland CHO modifies AstraZeneca advice as case numbers rise
					

Chief Health Officer Jeannette Young has admitted the state is approaching the point where people under 60 should get the AstraZeneca vaccine if they can.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Dr Young said she did not believe her comments over the past month had contributed to Queensland having the highest vaccine hesitancy rate in the country, according to a recent survey.

The review, conducted by the Melbourne Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research and released last week, showed just over 30 per cent of Queenslanders were either unwilling or unsure about getting the vaccine.

That was compared with 14.5 per cent in NSW, 23.9 per cent in Victoria and 21.4 per cent in Western Australia.

However, Queensland’s vaccine hesitancy rate has been consistently above those other states stretching back to October 2020, when the state’s unwilling and unsure people made up 25 per cent of the population.
But of our 60-year-old to 69 age group, less than 20 per cent have had their second dose ... just over 42 per cent of 70-plus have had their second dose.”
Dr Young has had her first dose of AstraZeneca, and said on Tuesday she was going to book in for her second dose soon as it had been more than eight weeks since her first, with ATAGI recently narrowing the recommended window between doses of AstraZeneca from 12 to eight weeks.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2021)

Government restrictions on the un-vaccinated legal say experts.









						'Special rules' are likely on the way for vaccinated Aussies. Here's why they'd be legal
					

A COVID-19 "vaccine passport" is coming, and rules about access to businesses, masks wearing and even public transport could all be very different for people depending on whether they are vaccinated or not. Here's what you need to know.




					www.abc.net.au
				




It's going to be pretty hard to police in some circumstances. People getting on public transport for example.


----------



## wayneL (5 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Government restrictions on the un-vaccinated legal say experts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Conspiracy theories coming true.

2+2=5, Winston.


----------



## Belli (5 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The review, conducted by the Melbourne Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research and released last week, showed just over 30 per cent of Queenslanders were either unwilling or unsure about getting the vaccine.




Not entirely surprised by that.  A relative close to my age and her husband is older and close to 80.  Live up pass Cairns.  Cane farmer.  They both had AZ but before they did have the vaccinations some acquaintances almost tried to restrain her husband from having it.  Usual crap about "stuff" in vaccinations and shedding.   Told them to get stuffed.  And he is one of the most conservative blokes I know.  He he.  She wasn't shy about telling me what she thought of them.  Cretins and a total waste of oxygen.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2021)

Belli said:


> Not entirely surprised by that.  A relative close to my age and her husband is older and close to 80.  Live up pass Cairns.  Cane farmer.  They both had AZ but before they did have the vaccinations some acquaintances almost tried to restrain her husband from having it.  Usual crap about "stuff" in vaccinations and shedding.   Told them to get stuffed.  And he is one of the most conservative blokes I know.  He he.  She wasn't shy about telling me what she thought of them.  Cretins and a total waste of oxygen.



Im in W.A and have relatives in the UK, none of them nor any of my family or friends have had the virus, the ones in the UK have had the vaccine without issue, of the people and relitives in W.A most are only now starting to talk about getting vaccinated.
The main driver seems to be the relentless lockdowns and talk of lockdowns, is starting to do their heads in, so they just seem to be saying WTF might as well just get it.
There doesnt appear to be any scientific and political reasoning going into the descission.


----------



## mullokintyre (6 August 2021)

As a regional Victorian living in a small town that has only 1 case of Covid in the 18 months or so since it all started, I am frustrated that  we are now entering our sixth lockdown. With no cases in regional Victoria, we are still going through the lockdown farce because Daniel Andrews does not want people moving out of Melbourne. Today I had planned to attend the funeral of a much loved citizen of our town, a well known bloke, community minded, generous with his time and money,  in short, a life well lived.  Now thanks to Ghengis Dan, only ten people can attend. Not even all of his family members will be allowed to attend. I don't give a rats arse whether its a conspiracy, a communist plot, or just a plain F^%^&^up. The end result is the same.  I am over it. Either they start allowing fully vaxed people to live normal lives, or they  will end up with a multitude of social unrest that once out, will never be able to control.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (6 August 2021)

Does being vaccinated increase the risk of getting covid ?









						Why you shouldn't be concerned when more vaccinated people are getting infected than unvaccinated
					

Confusion has spread online as countries report increasing numbers of new COVID-19 cases among people who have been vaccinated. But vaccinated and unvaccinated infections need to be compared with their respective populations for a proper analysis.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## bellenuit (6 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Does being vaccinated increase the risk of getting covid ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 A point that is usually misunderstood by the anti-vaxxers.

Another way of explaining this is to look at the extreme ends of the scale and see what that shows. Before there were COVID vaccines, 100% of infections were of unvaccinated people and 0% were of vaccinated (as there was no vaccine). Should we get to a stage where everyone has been vaccinated, there will still be breakthrough cases, but we will have 100% of infections will be of vaccinated people while 0% will be of unvaccinated.

So as more and more become vaccinated, vaccinated people will become a bigger percentage of those infected. This will be the case irrespective of the efficacy of the vaccine. We will know the vaccine is effective if the % of those infected who are vaccinated is less than the % of people among the general population who are vaccinated.


----------



## basilio (6 August 2021)

I think this perspective  around COVID from a paramedic says it all. And we are nowhere near the potential number of sick people.
As paramedics in south-west Sydney we are pushed beyond exhaustion – and into a dystopian world​Anonymous

Staff morale has never been lower and the only thing keeping us afloat is joking about how we’re drowning





‘The loneliness I feel by keeping totally isolated from loved ones and the risk I put myself at helping us all get back to a normal life is burning me out.’ Photograph: Sean Foster/Getty Images
Thu 5 Aug 2021 12.18 AEST
Last modified on Thu 5 Aug 2021 12.19 AEST


It’s been nearly 18 months since I wrote about Covid-19 first hitting our shores and spreading to our suburbs. The transmissibility and virulence of the Delta strain has pushed the ambulance service beyond the brink of exhaustion.

It wasn’t until paramedics and other health staff began contracting Covid at work that we realised how much trouble we were in and by then more than 200 paramedics were deemed close contacts and ordered into two weeks’ isolation. I was one of them. Despite the message from the highest levels of government, this was a race, and we had tripped over the first hurdle.

After two weeks locked in and alone, I was eager to get back to work to chip in and see my friends. My enthusiasm was quickly extinguished when I stepped into the dystopian world that used to be my workplace: hospitals in crisis and nearing capacity. The tension in the air is thick, staff morale has never been lower and, despite words of encouragement from management, the only thing keeping us afloat is joking about how we’re drowning. Most of us are feeling anxious. Typically for paramedics, we find strength and solidarity through collective suffering.



Sydney Covid Delta variant outbreak ‘an epidemic of young people’
Read more
As the crisis in Sydney worsened, certain ambulance sectors were left dangerously short-staffed while health management scrambled to catch up. New orders were handed down – full PPE must now be worn for every patient. Full PPE means droplet precautions, mask, gloves, goggles and plastic gown. If anyone finds popping a mask on to order a coffee exasperating, try wrapping yourself in cling-wrap and going to work for 12 hours.

What started as a trickle became a flood of call-outs for Covid-positive patients needing help. It has never been like this. I’ve entered houses where all occupants are Covid positive. Some are sick, some are just scared and apologise for wasting our time. They’re not sure how bad they need to get before they should go to hospital. Some don’t speak English, or have poor health literacy, and fear there’ll be repercussions should they test positive. Fear of testing not only prolongs lockdowns, it can also prove deadly.



> I went home, went to bed and woke up the next day to do it all over again. I’ll keep doing so until we’re out of this




I’ve turned up to a house to find every member symptomatic, and none had been tested. We found a patient unconscious and not breathing and commenced CPR. Chest compressions aren’t like the movies, they’re brutal. CPR is also physically demanding, particularly in restrictive PPE. Trying to keep calm while out of breath under a mask, sweating under a layer of plastic while trying to insert an artificial airway, get a cannula in a vein, evaluate a cardiac rhythm on a monitor to determine whether to deliver a shock isn’t a walk in the park.

Conveying sympathy to a family, through fogged up goggles, that their loved one couldn’t be saved is even harder. The whole household ended up being Covid-positive and needed hospitalisation. This is now a typical shift for us.

The other night on my way home, while popping into the bottle shop to pick up an essential item, I noticed an irate customer at the checkout not wearing a mask. He was yelling about his rights and calling the teenage worker “Gladys’ puppet”. As I watched him ranting about the vaccine to the perplexed looking teenager behind perspex, I began to ponder.

I wondered if this man was having an asthma attack, would he question the nebuliser I’d administer to open up his airways. If he had an anaphylactic reaction to his bottle of rum, would he call life-saving adrenaline a “fake drug”. If he slipped and broke a leg, would he trust me to put a needle in his vein and give morphine or would he ask for proof that it worked? No, I’m pretty sure if this man was in strife, he would be desperate for my help. He would put faith in the science, the protocols and the training of the practitioner providing the treatment. He would listen to the health advice.

Every person who disobeys health orders pushes the finish line further back. Like everyone out there providing an essential service, I’m sacrificing more than my freedom. The loneliness I feel by keeping totally isolated from loved ones and the risk I put myself at helping us all get back to a normal life is burning me out.

In that moment, I felt like getting into an argument but instead I left. I went home, went to bed and woke up the next day to do it all over again. I’ll keep doing so until we’re out of this. If everyone else does their part by getting vaccinated you’ll ensure paramedics aren’t left in pieces beyond the pandemic. After all, we’re only human too.


The author is a paramedic at an ambulance station in Sydney’s south-west









						As paramedics in south-west Sydney we are pushed beyond exhaustion – and into a dystopian world | Anonymous
					

Staff morale has never been lower and the only thing keeping us afloat is joking about how we’re drowning




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## pozindustrial (6 August 2021)

> Digital giant issues strike after channel posted videos denying the existence of disease and encouraging people to use discredited medication




That is complete BS. The medications are not discredited they are used legally and produce great results in a wide range of applications. Doctors are in disbelief that suddenly they are banned from using them for Covid patients. This is political support of vaccines as the only answer, absolutely nothing to do with discrediting. Fauci said hydroxychloriquine was not double blind, placebo control tested and so he could not recommend its use for Covid, but he recommended vaccines which do not have a safe history like Ivermectin and Hydroxy and those vaccines have not passed the double blind, placebo controls or the years of testing trials!!

Here is a blog by a doctor who did her thesis on disease control and the role of vaccinations. She cites false information distributed by WHO and gives an explanation of herd immunity. She too was censored, but not discredited.


----------



## Belli (6 August 2021)

The use of ivermectin hasn't been entirely dismissed.  It is still under research I believe.









						Is ivermectin a cure for COVID-19?
					

Ivermectin is the latest medicine to make media headlines as a treatment for COVID-19. What does the research show so far, and could this medicine really be a cure?




					www.nps.org.au


----------



## pozindustrial (6 August 2021)

Ivermectin use in India and Worldwide
					

* Ivermectin obliterates 97% of Covid-19 cases in Delhi * India WHO chief put on trial over negative recommendation on ivermectin * Ivermectin for the World (book) * FLCCC Alliance recommends Iverm…




					covid.us.org
				












						Ivermectin, India, Craig Kelly’s evidence bomb and covidiots
					

By TONY MOBILIF0NITISAS Indian states deploy the cheap and effective anti-viral drug Ivermectin and wipe out COVID-19 infections and deaths, public health officers and premiers in Australia are per…




					cairnsnews.org
				




It works. No main media coverage. Efforts to ban it. Projabbers are extreme examples of mushrooms. Kept in the dark and fed BS by the major media and WHO.


----------



## rederob (6 August 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Here is a blog by a doctor who did her thesis on disease control and the role of vaccinations. She cites false information distributed by WHO and gives an explanation of herd immunity. She too was censored, but not discredited.



Sorry @pozindustrial, your linked "Dr" is totally discredited in the medical science community; you know, the people that actually save lives by advising on and implementing best practice in health care.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2021)

basilio said:


> I think this perspective  around COVID from a paramedic says it all. And we are nowhere near the potential number of sick people.
> As paramedics in south-west Sydney we are pushed beyond exhaustion – and into a dystopian world​Anonymous
> 
> Staff morale has never been lower and the only thing keeping us afloat is joking about how we’re drowning
> ...



Are all the paramedics vaccinated, the last media article I read on the subject, talked about a lot of paramedics still not fronting up, or only recently applying for the vaccine.
Also Bas, the Gaurdian was criticising Morrison, when in June he said get any vaccine you can, they lambasted him for going against expert opinion, now the expert opinion backs Morrison, I dont hear them appologising.
Im sure Morrison didnt give the advice, without being briefed prior, yet the Gaurdian publicly criticised, without obviously being up to speed with the information.
Thats what I dislike about the media, they can throw mud, with gay abandon, yet they make no effort to clean it up, when they are wrong.
They seem to work on the mantra, as long as it furthers the narrative, it is acceptable.
The media always gets it right in the end, it is just the chaos and collateral damage  they cause on the way, that I take exception to.

Tuesday 29 June.








						Australia’s top medical body refuses to endorse PM’s announcement that under-40s can get AstraZeneca
					

Exclusive: AMA says Scott Morrison’s announcement about younger people getting AZ Covid jab goes against advice from vaccine safety body




					www.theguardian.com
				




Friday 23 July.








						Morrison has finally embraced ‘informed consent’ for AstraZeneca. What took him so long to take Atagi’s advice? | Paul Karp
					

Despite government rhetoric, Atagi had always advised that adults wanting to be vaccinated could choose either vaccine




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2021)

Then to cap it off the media has the audacity to blame the Government for mixed messages. 🤣
August 2nd.








						AstraZeneca’s Australia boss ‘surprised and disappointed’ with debate over Covid vaccine
					

Pharmaceutical company’s Australian chief points to mixed messaging as cause of AstraZeneca hesitancy




					www.theguardian.com
				




The media is never wrong, their avid followers are never wrong, because they have no accountability.
There is only one who has accountability apparently, yet those without any accountability for what they write, can hold some to account. 
The World has gone mad IMO, they may as well save everyone a huge amount of money and let the media take over everything, just get rid of Governments completely, let the reporters run it.
One thing for sure @basilio , you can see why the Guardian is free and relies on subscription, all media should be the same, they should rely on people paying them for their information. Rather than having to rely on advertisers vested interests, or the tax payer funding to pay for their endless dribble.
Just my opinion, but it may well end up with a more accurate and objective media, which is in everyone's best interest.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2021)

Sorry a bit late, but finally found it, Fri night happy hour with the guys.lol

30 July








						Two-thirds of SA ambulance officers aren't fully vaccinated, government reveals
					

South Australia's Health Minister, Stephen Wade, reveals only 35 per cent of the state's ambulance service staff are fully vaccinated.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Now all I need is @Humid to pop up, to make it a really great night of entertainment. 
You have to love ASF, what a great place to catch up with mates.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Then to cap it off the media has the audacity to blame the Government for mixed messages. 🤣
> August 2nd.
> 
> 
> ...




sp a Guardian fan now, I'd never have believed it !  

I agree with your thoughts though, although I doubt if most media could survive without advertisers/taxpayers.

What they need to do more is have all the media outlets fact check each other a la Media Watch. That would  certainly be entertaining and would help keep all of them on their toes.


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> sp a Guardian fan now, I'd never have believed it !
> 
> I agree with your thoughts though, although I doubt if most media could survive without advertisers/taxpayers.
> 
> What they need to do more is have all the media outlets fact check each other a la Media Watch. That would  certainly be entertaining and would help keep all of them on their toes.



I actually don't read the Guardian much, not because I dislike it, just it isn't on my newspaper watch list, I have the age, SMH, ABC,  telegraph, courier mail and the west australian. But really I can only read the age, SMH and ABC the others have too hard a paywall. The others I read are overseas papers when checking out stories they seem pretty easy to access.
The Guardian articles were only a result of googling experts disagree with Morrison news, then AZ to be available to all news. It just showed how the narrative does a 180, yet they don't correct earlier accusations, it isn't party specific, if labor were in The Australian would be doing the same thing.


----------



## pozindustrial (7 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> sp a Guardian fan now, I'd never have believed it !
> 
> I agree with your thoughts though, although I doubt if most media could survive without advertisers/taxpayers.
> 
> What they need to do more is have all the media outlets fact check each other a la Media Watch. That would  certainly be entertaining and would help keep all of them on their toes.



Love that idea, but it might be too hard unfortunately. Media businesses only create news to make advertising money so they can’t bite the hand that feeds them. What I have noticed is that Covid news that could be seen as negative to the current narrative is available for a short time only and then it disappears, particularly news about India and China.


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2021)

Interesting article, it shows how prevalent vaccine hesitancy is when only 43% of aged care workers have taken up the vaccine.
I wonder if the SPC directive to employees, to be vaccinated, will be challenged in the court system?








						High-risk businesses get green light for mandatory staff vaccinations
					

While the federal government will not make Covid vaccines mandatory, employers could make the call, Prime Minister Scott Morrison says. Read more.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:

Aged Care workers have until September 17 to have at least one dose of a Covid vaccine to be allowed to work. More than 43 per cent have received their first jab.

The Prime Minister said it would be up to the courts to decide whether it is reasonable for retail, supermarket and other essential services to make jabs mandatory.

"Employers need to consider those matters very carefully if they are looking to make directions of that nature," he said.

The reassurance comes after SPC became the first non-health-related business to ban employees unless they are fully vaccinated for Covid-19.

The mandate will be effective from the end of November, the company announced on Thursday.


----------



## Belli (7 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder if the SPC directive to employees, to be vaccinated, will be challenged in the court system?




Possibly but think of the other side of the coin.  Employee contracts Covid and lands the company with a law suit.

And have a read of this High Court decision.  Would not surprise me if elements of paragrah 2 of the decision to "give any other direction that the authorised officer considers is reasonably necessary to protect public health" could also extend to other directives on public health.





__





						Gerner v Victoria [2020] HCA 48 (10 December 2020)
					





					www.austlii.edu.au


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2021)

Belli said:


> Possibly but think of the other side of the coin.  Employee contracts Covid and lands the company with a law suit.
> 
> And have a read of this High Court decision.  Would not surprise me if elements of paragrah 2 of the decision to "give any other direction that the authorised officer considers is reasonably necessary to protect public health" could also extend to other directives on public health.
> 
> ...



That is exactly what courts are for, to weigh up the probabilities and come to a judgement of what is considered in the public interest.
Lots of things should be tested in court, to get rid of the grey areas that persist because a judgement isn't made, or the issue is settled out of court and the issue remains unresolved.


----------



## IFocus (7 August 2021)

How about employee forced to have vax and gets blood clots then sues company?


----------



## pozindustrial (7 August 2021)

We all seek answers to these dreaded lockdowns and how to crawl out back to normalcy. 
Here is yet another scientist who has pleaded with our health professionals, the prime minister, ABC, media outlets etc. alerting them to an easy, fast and low cost way to end it. 
He explains how misinformation has been spread, how simple drugs have been effective and how these things have been known and used for a very long time. He speaks about intravenous Vit C of which Wuhan imported 50 tons before getting control of the virus among other products, and is frustrated by the censorship and that the medical leaders do not want to upset the big pharma companies. He maintains that our political leaders have no idea at all about what should be done.
 
The more people realise that these things are the real problem, that Covid should not be the problem it is, that vaccines are a very poor answer the faster we will get out of this mess and economies back on track and our personal freedoms expanded without restriction.


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> How about employee forced to have vax and gets blood clots then sues company?



That's exactly what I'm talking about, it is o.k saying you will do this and you will do that, but until it has been tested in court it is just a BS wish list.
If a company can demand a worker has a vaccine, where do you draw the line?  I hope the unions actually challenge it, they can make it a condition of new employees (maybe), but it wasn't a condition of employment for current employees. Retrospective conditions of employment, is like any other retrospective laws or rules, those who it affects have to agree to it. 
Like I said unless it is challenged, it by de facto becomes acceptable and becomes a grey area, where the company decides what is in the publics best interests over the workers rights.


----------



## qldfrog (8 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> In a lot of ways, it is what it is, if the whole thing is a hoax it really doesn't matter, what matters is what you personally think is the right choice for you.
> That boils down to a lot of things, age, health, aspirations, travel plans, travel hopes, work requirements, personal beliefs, religious beliefs etc, there isn't one size fits all in this.



As long as we have a choice.....


----------



## mullokintyre (8 August 2021)

Terry Mcrann in Weekend OZ


> The latest Roy Morgan jobs numbers will show that 28,000 people lost their jobs as the lockdowns in Victoria (the previous one) and NSW started to bite through July.
> This took the Morgan measure of the number of jobless across Australia to 1.42m.
> 
> A further 1.33m were under-employed, meaning a staggering total of more than 2.7m Australians were either out of a job or working short hours. That’s nearly one in every five workers.
> ...



Watch the state premiers start lining up demanding that the feds provide income support for the workers that they themselves have crunched. 
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (8 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's exactly what I'm talking about, it is o.k saying you will do this and you will do that, but until it has been tested in court it is just a BS wish list.
> If a company can demand a worker has a vaccine, where do you draw the line?  I hope the unions actually challenge it, they can make it a condition of new employees (maybe), but it wasn't a condition of employment for current employees. Retrospective conditions of employment, is like any other retrospective laws or rules, those who it affects have to agree to it.
> Like I said unless it is challenged, it by de facto becomes acceptable and becomes a grey area, where the company decides what is in the publics best interests over the workers rights.



The problem is that all of the orgs that oversee and monitor the workers righta are already in Lockstep nwith the government.
According to the Fair work ombudsman,



> In the current circumstances, the overwhelming majority of employers should assume that they can’t require their employees to be vaccinated against coronavirus.
> 
> While the Australian Government’s policy is that receiving a vaccination is voluntary, it aims to have as many Australians vaccinated as possible.
> 
> ...



The very first sentence seems to suggest that employers cannot force employees to be vaccinated, but then goes on to undermine in the next section..
Certainly in the case of governments, the precedent has been set. Even before the pandemic started,  anyone going to work in a nursing
 home had to have had a flu injection. 
Safework Australia highlights the duty of care that employers have to provide a safe working environment for employees".



> *On 28 June 2021, the National Cabinet agreed that COVID-19 vaccinations are to be mandated for residential aged care workers as a condition of working in an aged care facility through shared state, territory and Commonwealth authorities and compliance measures. For further information, go to the National Cabinet Media Statement.
> 
> Queensland has issued a public health direction for health workers working with diagnosed cases of COVID-19. For a link to Queensland’s public health directions go to our public health orders page.
> 
> ...



I don't like the chances of any legal  challenge working. A legal challenge ahs already been dismissed in the High Court in reltion to lockdowns and the abuse of basic human rights.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (8 August 2021)

And Finally, the police state has arrived.
I never thought I would see the day when any Government, much less a so called liberal one, would demand people carry their papers. 
From the NSW Government Website


> Proof of address​You must carry proof of your address if you
> 
> 
> have left your home for a reasonable excuse
> ...



How long will it before its permanent.
Mick


----------



## basilio (8 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And Finally, the police state has arrived.
> I never thought I would see the day when any Government, much less a so called liberal one, would demand people carry their papers.
> From the NSW Government Website
> 
> ...




It's clearly  short term and straightforward.
Under the current  public health  laws to minimise movement  if people  leave  their home for  specified reasons they  have to stay with a certain  radius.  So  in these circumstances  clearly police do need to know where your home is.


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> How long will it before its permanent.
> Mick



My guess, when they have the vaccine passport.


----------



## IFocus (8 August 2021)

Australian passport holders can no longer pass freely in and out of Australia, only country in the world has done this (Maybe China too) is the Liberal / National party now the same or worse than the CCP


----------



## wayneL (8 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Australian passport holders can no longer pass freely in and out of Australia, only country in the world has done this (Maybe China too) is the Liberal / National party now the same or worse than the CCP



If not, it's certainly heading that way. A change if g'mint won't change that either unless  we vote away from the majors.

We need to vote for more liberal parties (in the true liberal sense, not as in the Liberal party of Australia).


----------



## Belli (8 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's exactly what I'm talking about, it is o.k saying you will do this and you will do that, but until it has been tested in court it is just a BS wish list.
> If a company can demand a worker has a vaccine, where do you draw the line?  I hope the unions actually challenge it, they can make it a condition of new employees (maybe), but it wasn't a condition of employment for current employees. Retrospective conditions of employment, is like any other retrospective laws or rules, those who it affects have to agree to it.
> Like I said unless it is challenged, it by de facto becomes acceptable and becomes a grey area, where the company decides what is in the publics best interests over the workers rights.




It's a good one there.  I think some industries already have the right to require employees have a vaccination.  Flu vaccinations for example in hospitals and other similar industries.


----------



## pozindustrial (8 August 2021)

Don't vote, it just encourages them haha. 

Politicians have to be political, watch their backs, do favours, not upset the press, keep party members happy, hand out freebies to battlers, businesses, investors, etc. to keep the backers happy, do anything to increase their margins and their cashflow and try to give direction to the country or state.

It is a new world now where they can print money too.

Looking after our interests has got to be low on the list of todos but looking as if they do is probably high on the list. Spin doctors are essential assets. 

All we can do is keep the Westminster style system alive which I think is our best protection. That came out after the 1999 vote to change our constitution and become a republic. It is far from perfect, but  more stable than the governments of most countries.


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2021)

Belli said:


> It's a good one there.  I think some industries already have the right to require employees have a vaccination.  Flu vaccinations for example in hospitals and other similar industries.



I'm not sure that is accurate, as a lot of hospital staff weren't vaccinated for covid and I'm sure it would have been demanded if an instruction already existed.








						Student nurse who worked at two Sydney hospitals while infectious was not vaccinated
					

A student nurse who worked while infectious with COVID-19 on a number of days at both Fairfield and Royal North Shore hospitals was not vaccinated, NSW Health has confirmed.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Also I thought the first cab off the rank on compulsory vaccinations, were aged care facilities and that comes into effect in September.
I could be wrong.








						COVID-19 Vaccination to become mandatory for Residential aged care workers
					

On Monday, National Cabinet agreed that the COVID-19 vaccination of residential aged care workers will become mandatory by mid-September 2021.




					www.health.gov.au
				




It is just my understanding, but I thought the article posted a few days back said that SPC was the first private company to adopt compulsory vaccinations, maybe you could post up where compulsory vaccinations are already a pre requisite at some work places.








						SPC first Australian company to require its staff to be vaccinated
					

Fruit and vegetable giant SPC will be the first company in Australia to require all onsite personnel – including staff and visitors – to be fully vaccinated by the end of November.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Australian passport holders can no longer pass freely in and out of Australia, only country in the world has done this (Maybe China too) is the Liberal / National party now the same or worse than the CCP



I wasn't meaning the normal Australian passport, more the passport app that will probably be linked to your medicare and my gov account.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-app-covid-vaccine-passport









						Designing Australia's vaccine passport so it works for everyone
					

The Prime Minister is hoping the prospect of vaccine passports will encourage more of us to get vaccinated, and sooner. Right now if you're fully vaccinated you can access a digital Covid-19 vaccine certificate as proof, and the government are working on a more developed version of that for use...



					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Belli (8 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not sure that is accurate, as a lot of hospital staff weren't vaccinated for covid and I'm sure it would have been demanded if an instruction already existed.




I don't know about covid vaccination but I understand Victoria has legislation requiring those in health care to have flu vaccinations.  I don't know if similar applies to other States.  One problem I guess is it is a matter for State Governments not Federal - at the moment.


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2021)

Belli said:


> I don't know about covid vaccination but I understand Victoria has legislation requiring those in health care to have flu vaccinations.  I don't know if similar applies to other States.  One problem I guess is it is a matter for State Governments not Federal - at the moment.



Interesting, in W.A I'm pretty sure the flu jab is still voluntary, I worked in essential service and they asked us to get the flu jab, but it wasn't a case of you could face disciplinary action if you didn't.
If Victoria already has legislation to force flu jabs, I would have thought it would be easy to just add covid to that legislation, as it is also a  respiratory infection same as flu. .
When I google it, it looks as though it was proposed in 2020, but I can't see where it was actually passed as a law.




__





						health Victoria - - March 2020
					

The Department of Health Newsletter, Victoria, Australia, Victorian Government Health Information Website. Health.vic.gov.au is a gateway to information relating to the provision of health services in Victoria. The pages in this Website are developed and managed by the Department of Health...



					www.health.vic.gov.au
				








__





						Health Services Amendment (Mandatory Vaccination of Healthcare Workers) Act 2020
					

legislation.vic.gov.au




					www.legislation.vic.gov.au
				




Found it, you are right @Belli, Victoria can force front line health workers to have a vaccination, interesting.








						Compulsory Vaccinations for Health Workers in VIC - Health Legal
					

Victoria has made vaccinations compulsory for health workers to protect them from preventable diseases and minimise the risk of transmission.




					healthlegal.com.au


----------



## Belli (8 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting, in W.A I'm pretty sure the flu jab is still voluntary, I worked in essential service and they asked us to get the flu jab, but it wasn't a case of you could face disciplinary action if you didn't.
> If Victoria already has legislation to force flu jabs, I would have thought it would be easy to just add covid to that legislation, as it is also a  respiratory infection same as flu. .




I haven't followed it all that closely to be honest as I have been concentrating on an other aspect since the middle of last year and that is self-preservation.  Others can bang on about rights, viability of vaccines, herd immunity or ingesting Vitamin D.  As far as I am concerned it's taking the eye off the main game which is to avoid as far as possible contracting Covid.  When that situation arose I upped my personal efforts such as wearing a mask.

Plus those who do the clinical research and other activities of that nature are much smarter than I am.  It's what they do on a daily basis and I don't.

So after reading read a some of the results of their efforts it wasn't hard for me to conclude what to do.


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2021)

It doesn't bode well for the virus going away, when the WHO says the new covid strains will be named after star constellations, when the 24 letters of the Greek alphabet have been used.  









						COVID variant names written in stars after Greek alphabet is used
					

New coronavirus variants are to be named after star constellations when all the letters in the Greek alphabet are used, a senior World Health Organisation official has said.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## over9k (8 August 2021)

Anyone know how these proposed vaccine passports are going to work? I presume we get some kind of certificate/proof of vaccination but then what? Do they add a little "V" to our passport or???


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2021)

over9k said:


> Anyone know how these proposed vaccine passports are going to work? I presume we get some kind of certificate/proof of vaccination but then what? Do they add a little "V" to our passport or???



My guess is it will be some sort of app, that links to your 'my gov' account, the elderly who don't have a smart phone will probably have to download a copy of the certificate, well that's what it sounds like ATM reading the sketchy info.
The U.K are further down the track of the covid passport, so I assume we will piggy back on their model, if they have ironed out the glitches.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## bellenuit (8 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is it will be some sort of app, that links to your 'my gov' account, the elderly who don't have a smart phone will probably have to download a copy of the certificate, well that's what it sounds like ATM reading the sketchy info.
> The U.K are further down the track of the covid passport, so I assume we will piggy back on their model, if they have ironed out the glitches.
> Just my thoughts.




iPhone users can download it to the Apple Wallet.


----------



## wayneL (9 August 2021)

In among all the lockdown nonsense...


----------



## sptrawler (9 August 2021)

It sounds as though the problem over East, is getting worse. The Vax queues will be getting longer.








						Covid Victoria: Almost 9500 people deemed close contacts
					

More than 150 exposure sites have been listed by Victoria's health department. Read the latest Covid news.




					au.news.yahoo.com


----------



## IFocus (9 August 2021)

over9k said:


> Anyone know how these proposed vaccine passports are going to work? I presume we get some kind of certificate/proof of vaccination but then what? Do they add a little "V" to our passport or???





Lots of talk haven't seen an international recognised standard yet Rex Patrick managed to forge a certificate already as for Australia some places wont accept our AZ vax as valid anyway not sure if that has since changed.


----------



## Joules MM1 (9 August 2021)

okie


----------



## sptrawler (9 August 2021)

Some disagree with compulsory vaccinations.








						Liberal MPs split over mandatory jabs for construction workers
					

A western Sydney Liberal MP says she will lead the charge to block mandatory vaccinations for construction workers.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## basilio (10 August 2021)

Sky News management is facing a Senate inquiry over the lies and misinformation re. COVID it has relentlessly promoted through it's TV  and website.
In preparation for the inquiry they have scrubbed 31 videos off all their media.  Looks like the inquiry will have to reference The Guardian to see what  they were peddling.

Given that many people rarely get past the headlines it is interesting to see the headings of these videos.

*The list of the 31 videos which have been removed:*​
Ivermectin treatment caused ‘amazing improvement’: Melbourne COVID patients
Statistical analysis of 118 studies proves ‘efficacy’ of Hydroxychloroquine
Potential COVID treatment facing ‘intrinsic bias due to non-scientific concerns’
Doctor claims Ivermectin triple therapy is ‘amazingly effective’ in treating COVID-19
Ivermectin treatment ‘could bring us all together by Christmas’
‘Dangerous Dan is wrong about compulsory facemasks’: Alan Jones
There is no good reason to ban two potential ‘COVID cures’: Andrew Bolt
Systemic discouragement of Hydroxychloroquine is a ‘national scandal’
Doctors, patients should be free to decide on whether to take hydroxychloroquine
There is ‘much ado about nothing’ amid hysteria at NSW premier’s breach of guidelines
Australian scientists roll out hydroxychloroquine trial
Bureaucrats ‘deny the evidence, Hydroxychloroquine reduces death by 73 per cent’
US stockpiles 29 million doses of hydroxychloroquine drug
The jury is in on Hydroxychloroquine – ‘it saves lives’: Rowan Dean
COVID-19 is ‘not a unique disease’, yet here we are, with lockdowns everywhere: Jones
‘Evil’: Family kicked off plane for ‘authoritarian’ mask rules: Outsiders
Were doctors free to prescribe Hydroxychloroquine, ‘we wouldn’t need the lockdowns’
Clinical trials show Hydroxychloroquine is ‘safe’ with no reported toxicity
‘Fears of people taking Hydroxychloroquine in unregulated ways are quite real’
There is a ‘mountain of evidence’ supporting Hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID
‘Coronavirus death rate is roughly inline with the flu’: Medical professor
Melbourne GP says Ivermectin treatment is ‘very effective’
Andrews’ mask mandate is another ‘dreamt up draconian measure’: Alan Jones
Covid-19 treatments are ‘staring at us in the face’ but have been ignored
Doctors warn public against use of Hydroxychloroquine after Trump revelation
Ivermectin treatment is a ‘real killer of coronavirus’: Professor
Studies show hydroxychloroquine cuts ‘virus mortality in half in high risk groups’
People are out ‘to prove President Trump wrong’ on Hydroxychloroquine
There is ‘rank dishonesty’ about Hydroxychloroquine: Alan Jones
Leftist media ‘willing to have lives lost’ as a result of hatred for Trump
‘Only a one in 17 billion chance hydroxychloroquine doesn’t work’: medical professor: Outsiders









						Sky News Australia deletes dozens of videos promoting unproven Covid treatments
					

Broadcaster has deleted more than 30 videos, including those featuring Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt, ahead of Senate inquiry




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (10 August 2021)

The push toward compulsory vaccinations continues.








						WA’s unvaccinated aged care workers face $20,000 fines
					

Residential aged care staff who go to work unvaccinated against COVID-19 will be heavily fined under a state of emergency order signed by WA’s Chief Health Officer today. Here’s when it kicks in.




					thewest.com.au
				



From the article:
Residential aged care workers who go to work unvaccinated against COVID-19 will be fined up to $20,000 under a state of emergency order signed by WA’s Chief Health Officer today.

The new mandatory vaccination rules come into effect on September 17 after being agreed to by State and Territory leaders at National Cabinet.

Andy Robertson, WA’s top doctor, signed orders which state that anyone who fails to comply with the directions could be fined up to $20,000.
The penalties rise to $100,000 for bodies corporate.

Owners and operators of aged care facilities are required to collect and maintain a record of vaccination status of all their staff and must be able to produce a record to authorities on request.
It comes after WA Premier Mark McGowan flagged compulsory vaccination would be imposed on port, airline and healthcare workers.

Also from this week, all WA Police officers and staff must have had at least one vaccine dose or will be ordered to wear a mask at work.


----------



## IFocus (10 August 2021)

Did someone say Murdoch...


----------



## rederob (10 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The push toward compulsory vaccinations continues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As draconian as some want to portray it, employers in health care and several other industry sectors have a duty of care.  
And with genomic testing of covid it's possible to identify precisely who is likely to have passed the disease to another.  
So if a person contracts covid and is able to identify who they got it from, then they may be able to claim damages.  
Employers who do not take all reasonable steps to mitigate harm are wide open.


----------



## basilio (10 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> *Did someone say Murdoch...*
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 128799




Poisonous, lying xxxxs.


----------



## basilio (10 August 2021)

How many more stories like this need to be posted ?

Chef’s parents and brother die from Covid within week after jab refusal​Francis Goncalves, from Cardiff, wants his family’s experience to encourage people to get vaccinated

Coronavirus – latest updates
See all our coronavirus coverage





Francis Goncalves said his mother, father and brother, who lived in Portugal, were frightened by misinformation from anti-vaxxers. Photograph: Mark Lewis/Media Wales
Steven Morris and agency

@stevenmorris20
Tue 10 Aug 2021 02.45 AEST
Last modified on Tue 10 Aug 2021 09.13 AEST

A man from Cardiff has claimed he lost his mother, father and brother from Covid within a week because all three had chosen not to be jabbed after they were frightened by misinformation from anti-vaxxers.

Francis Goncalves, a chef, said he believed that his father, Basil, 73, contracted Covid while in hospital and his mother, Charmagne, 65, and brother Shaul, 40, picked it up at a family dinner.

He said all three, who were living in Portugal, had turned down the chance to be vaccinated and Goncalves said he hoped sharing his experience may encourage other sceptics to be jabbed.

“They got caught up in a lot of the anti-vaccination propaganda,” he said. “It preys on people who are afraid and they fall into the trap. The message I want to get out is why would the government want to hurt you by giving you a vaccine? What is the purpose behind it? I’ve spoken to so many people who are terrified of the vaccine and it costs lives.”



Covid vaccine hesitancy halves among young people in Great Britain
Read more
Goncalves, 43, said his parents had underlying health conditions but his brother was the “healthiest person” he knew and believes the vaccine would have saved his life, adding: “If he wasn’t working out in the gym or running, he was going on walks. He hadn’t drunk in 15 years and had a plant-based diet.”









						Chef’s parents and brother die from Covid within week after jab refusal
					

Francis Goncalves, from Cardiff, wants his family’s experience to encourage people to get vaccinated




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (10 August 2021)

rederob said:


> As draconian as some want to portray it, employers in health care and several other industry sectors have a duty of care.
> And with genomic testing of covid it's possible to identify precisely who is likely to have passed the disease to another.
> So if a person contracts covid and is able to identify who they got it from, then they may be able to claim damages.
> Employers who do not take all reasonable steps to mitigate harm are wide open.



The way it is looking, I think a lot of companies will follow the lead, the cost of having the business closed wont be met by the Govt forever.
It is now 12 months on and the reality that covid is here to stay and the Govt is going to constantly fight it, will finally be sinking in, even to the most skeptical.
It is draconian, it is setting a precedent, but if it is what it takes, sometimes things just have to be done. 
I bet Scomo is happy, it isn't him doing it, I'm not sure it would get the same favourable response. 🤣


----------



## macca (11 August 2021)

from SMH re UK "experiment"

*London:* The Delta variant of COVID-19 has wrecked any chance of herd immunity, according to the Oxford scientist who led the AstraZeneca vaccine team, as he called for an end to mass testing so Britain could start to live with the virus.

Scientists who addressed Britain’s all-party parliamentary group on coronavirus said it was time to accept that there is no way of stopping the virus spreading through the entire population, and monitoring people with mild symptoms was no longer helpful.









						AstraZeneca lead scientist says Delta makes mass testing pointless in UK
					

Sir Andrew Pollard told British MPs that Delta was so widespread, it made sense to only test and treat people with symptoms, rather than all their contacts.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## over9k (11 August 2021)

macca said:


> from SMH re UK "experiment"
> 
> *London:* The Delta variant of COVID-19 has wrecked any chance of herd immunity, according to the Oxford scientist who led the AstraZeneca vaccine team, as he called for an end to mass testing so Britain could start to live with the virus.
> 
> ...



Yeeeeeep. Total exercise in futility at this point.


----------



## wayneL (12 August 2021)

Another article re Vitamin D 









						Autumn COVID-19 surge dates in Europe correlated to latitudes, not to temperature-humidity, pointing to vitamin D as contributing factor - Scientific Reports
					

To determine the factor triggering the sudden surge of daily new COVID-19 cases arising in most European countries during the autumn of 2020. The dates of the surge were determined using a fitting of the two last months of reported daily new cases in 18 European countries with latitude ranging...




					www.nature.com
				




Get thee some sun, folks.


----------



## pozindustrial (12 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Another article re Vitamin D
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, so interesting.

I believe controlled sun exposure is best for Vit D and this article is only for the serious who want to know more about optimum VitD supplementation.








						Vitamin D Supplementation: Panacea or Potential Problem? - The Weston A. Price Foundation
					

🖨️ Print post ARTICLE SUMMARY Vitamin D blood testing and oral supplementation have become an almost routine part of conventional medical care. Unfortunately, the results of a vitamin […]




					www.westonaprice.org
				




The sun is finally emerging in Melbourne after a very cold winter. I cannot wait to do some tanning, always have in Spring before the sun gets too intense, and still love to work in the summer sun if only for short periods.

I find the 'fear' about sun exposure absolutely ridiculous. Of course you protect yourself against burning, we have always done that, but covering ourselves in chemicals and hiding from the sun is stupid.


----------



## basilio (12 August 2021)

How to absolutely xxxxover a community.

Sydney woman believed to have caused Newcastle COVID-19 outbreak allegedly lied to police twice​ABC Newcastle
 / By Ben Millington
Posted 1h ago1 hours ago, updated 25m ago25 minutes ago





 NSW Police ordered the woman to return to Sydney due to information gleaned from her Opal card.(
ABC News: Dan Cox
)
Share

Police are considering laying further charges against a Western Sydney woman believed to be the source of a COVID-19 outbreak that has plunged 600,000 people in the NSW Hunter region into lockdown.
Key points:​
Police are "actively compiling evidence" over the breaches
Police say the woman twice defied orders to return to Sydney
It's understood she attended multiple Newcastle venues and parties
In a statement, NSW Police outlined how the 21-year-old allegedly lied to authorities and twice defied orders to return to Sydney, before spreading the virus in Newcastle over several days.

Police said the woman was detected on a train at Cardiff Station near Newcastle on Thursday July 29 by officers conducting Opal card checks.

She allegedly told police she had intended to get off at Epping Station in Sydney but had fallen asleep.

She was issued a warning and directed to return to Sydney, but it is believed she continued on to Newcastle to attend a party that night in Shortland.
Catch up on the main COVID-19 news from August 12 with a look back at our blog
Lockdown extended in the Hunter region​


Newcastle public health officials say Sydney interlopers caused the Hunter region's deepening COVID crisis.
Read more
The police statement said officers were called to an address at Sandgate Road in Shortland at 1:45am on Friday July 30.

There police found two women aged 21 and 20 who had digital drivers licences stating they lived in Sydney's west.

"Both women were directed to return to Sydney and left the location, indicating they would comply with that direction," the police statement said.

"However, investigations have revealed they failed to leave the area.

"Further inquiries have also revealed that both women attended several other locations whilst in the Newcastle City and Lake Macquarie Police Districts."








						Sydney woman believed to have caused Newcastle COVID-19 outbreak allegedly lied to police twice
					

It is alleged a 21-year-old woman twice defied police orders to return to Sydney before spreading the virus in Newcastle over several days.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						'Should've blown up the Hawkesbury Bridge': Hunter health official points finger at Sydney as COVID cases climb
					

Newcastle public health officials say Sydney interlopers caused the Hunter region's deepening COVID crisis as Gladys Berejiklian confirms the region will stay in lockdown for another week.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (13 August 2021)

Confirmation of what we all knew. It makes the numbers greatly exaggerated.

Gotta wonder why eh? Or not?


----------



## basilio (13 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Confirmation of what we all knew. It makes the numbers greatly exaggerated.
> 
> Gotta wonder why eh? Or not?





Really ? Why don't you go to India or Brazil or other South Amercian countries which have recorded hundreds of thousands of deaths beyond the "official" COVID stats . These exist. Millions more people have died.

Covid-19: Study claims real global deaths are twice official figures​       BMJ    2021;    373     doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n1188    (Published 10 May 2021)      Cite this as: BMJ 2021;373:n1188             
Read our latest coverage of the coronavirus pandemic​ 

Owen Dyer
Author affiliations
Global deaths from covid-19 are not 3.27 million, as official figures suggest, but 6.93 million up to 3 May, a new analysis based on changes in overall mortality claims.1

The virus is claiming about 33 000 lives a day around the world, more than twice reported figures, according to the study by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) at the University of Washington. The study predicts that the pandemic’s true overall toll will reach 9.43 million deaths by 1 September.2

In the UK, the researchers estimated, the true covid death toll up to May 2021 was not 150 519 as officially reported, but 209 661. They estimated the true US death toll at 905 289, compared with an official figure of 574 043.

The institute predicts a further 44 000 US deaths by September,3 and only 750 deaths in the UK,4 because of its lower rate of vaccine refusal. India is forecast to lose a further 842 000 people in that period.5









						Covid-19: Study claims real global deaths are twice official figures
					

Global deaths from covid-19 are not 3.27 million, as official figures suggest, but 6.93 million up to 3 May, a new analysis based on changes in overall mortality claims.1  The virus is claiming about 33 000 lives a day around the world, more than twice reported figures, according to the study by...




					www.bmj.com


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Really ? Why don't you go to India or Brazil or other South Amercian countries which have recorded hundreds of thousands of deaths beyond the "official" COVID stats . These exist. Millions more people have died.
> 
> Covid-19: Study claims real global deaths are twice official figures​       BMJ    2021;    373     doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n1188    (Published 10 May 2021)      Cite this as: BMJ 2021;373:n1188
> Read our latest coverage of the coronavirus pandemic​
> ...




It's much more likely that deaths in third world countries will be under reported. People will die without ever going to hospital or having their cause of death confirmed. The real death toll will never be known.


----------



## basilio (13 August 2021)

Bit of light COVID lockdown relief.


----------



## basilio (13 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It's much more likely that deaths in third world countries will be under reported. People will die without ever going to hospital or having their cause of death confirmed. The real death toll will never be known.




That is true and those figures are much higher. However the analysis of excess mortality rates in the USA and UK also indicated many more deaths during COVID than comparable periods. There were many people who died in nursing homes, rural hospitals and at home who just dodn't make it into the formal process.


----------



## wayneL (13 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Really ? Why don't you go to India or Brazil or other South Amercian countries which have recorded hundreds of thousands of deaths beyond the "official" COVID stats . These exist. Millions more people have died.
> 
> Covid-19: Study claims real global deaths are twice official figures​       BMJ    2021;    373     doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n1188    (Published 10 May 2021)      Cite this as: BMJ 2021;373:n1188
> Read our latest coverage of the coronavirus pandemic​
> ...



subject matter in the video was how it was counted in the United States, hence that is the topic at hand. Not India or Timbuktu. Happy to analyse those numbers as a separate issue.

Therefore, it is clear that the number of deaths due to covid have been over counted, the woman admits as much.

And you can bet Mombassa to a melon that it is the same at least in all the advanced economies


----------



## rederob (13 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> subject matter in the video was how it was counted in the United States, hence that is the topic at hand. Not India or Timbuktu. Happy to analyse those numbers as a separate issue.
> 
> Therefore, it is clear that the number of deaths due to covid have been over counted, the woman admits as much.
> 
> And you can bet Mombassa to a melon that it is the same at least in all the advanced economies



Covid is a factor in deaths but should never be recorded as the immediate cause. 
The recording of deaths usually follows established conventions, such as laid out here.
If a person is dead and has not been tested for covid then clearly a death certificate will *not *say that covid was contributory. 
Helping us to determine that covid was an influence is the use of excess death rates.  Below charts for a number of US States suggest covid deaths may be undercounted:




Furthermore, recent month declines which are evident in most US States are consistent with the rollout of covid vaccinations.
Not sure why @wayneL chooses not to use data to make a point, because the evidence for the USA suggest the opposite of what he believes.


----------



## macca (13 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It's much more likely that deaths in third world countries will be under reported. People will die without ever going to hospital or having their cause of death confirmed. The real death toll will never be known.



Yes, certainly agree but it also certain that the number of cases is vastly under reported as well.

Death rate % may be more or less, we will never know


----------



## basilio (14 August 2021)

Valuable reality checks.









						Common myths about Covid – debunked
					

Read on for the facts about the virus, backed up by science




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## rederob (15 August 2021)

The video below is about what is happening right now in one US city, but it's literally symptomatic of what is currently happening across the USA:

It shows that in Baton Rouge at the beginning of summer their 2 hospitals had a total of 4 covid patients. Lifting lockdowns and easing restrictions saw the Delta variant take hold and today 90% of all patients are covid sufferers, and 90% of them are *not *vaccinated (@ 10:41).
If that's what can happen to America today, where do we stand now if things get away, given our low vaccination rate?




Clearly a fully vaccinated level around 50% won't prevent our hospital systems from collapsing should the Delta variant get a toe hold. 
And maybe the tragic experience of other countries will help us work out what the magical percentage will be.  Whatever the case, we are a very long way from being there.


----------



## Belli (15 August 2021)

Yes, we blew it in one way.  During the period supply of vaccines were not available it does not appear very much planning was done for when supplies did arrive.  Little in the way of infrastructure to provide for mass vaccination sites, distribution, encouraging people from a variety of cultural backgrounds to be vaccinated. It is possible I am incorrect but I didn't see or hear of anything of that nature so a window of opportunity of four months or thereabouts was wasted.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 August 2021)

Apparently we have just purchased vaccines from Poland.

Why didn't they want them ?

Poland doesn't even appear on @rederob 's chart above.


----------



## rederob (15 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Apparently we have just purchased vaccines from Poland.
> 
> Why didn't they want them ?
> 
> Poland doesn't even appear on @rederob 's chart above.



Can't fit every country in @SirRumpole so here are most of the nations of Europe:




I believe the EU has got its vaccine supplies under control, so maybe Poland knows it's ok and can afford to reallocate some of its doses.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Can't fit every country in @SirRumpole so here are most of the nations of Europe:
> View attachment 129051
> 
> I believe the EU has got its vaccine supplies under control, so maybe Poland knows it's ok and can afford to reallocate some of its doses.




Thanks for the clarification, it seems Poland is better off than we are. Would be interesting to see the terms of the deal though (which we never will).


----------



## moXJO (15 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Apparently we have just purchased vaccines from Poland.
> 
> Why didn't they want them ?
> 
> Poland doesn't even appear on @rederob 's chart above.











						Poland struggles with vaccine reluctance as country opens up
					

Polls have shown Poland to be among the most vaccine-skeptic countries in Europe.




					www.google.com.au
				




Perhaps it was shelf life?
Roughly 6months frozen and 1 month refrigerated.
Better to move stock to where it will be used.


----------



## basilio (15 August 2021)

This is an excellent reminder of the recent Australian world that had to deal with many common dangerous diseases and no vaccines.
I suspect that many people have literally no idea of this pre-vaccine reality as they try to undermine the current vaccine conversations.

‘No concept of how awful it was’: the forgotten world of pre-vaccine childhood in Australia​Until relatively recently, lethal infectious diseases stalked the lives of Australian children – including my father, Tom Keneally. Vaccines have saved millions




People queue for immunisation at Maroubra School in July 1939. Photograph: Hood, Sam, 1872-1953/State Library of NSW

Meg Keneally
Sun 15 Aug 2021 06.00 AEST
Last modified on Sun 15 Aug 2021 07.01 AEST


It’s 1940, and a five-year-old boy lies in an oxygen tent. He struggles for breath and hallucinates that his leaden toy soldiers are alive and marching around the room, monstering him with their bayonets.

He has diphtheria, a disease also known as The Strangling Angel. There is a vaccine, but not every child has been inoculated. The bacterial infection creates a membrane across the back of the throat, cutting off air supply.

The little boy’s mother, sitting a desperate vigil next to the oxygen tent, has seen diphtheria take other children.

It will not, in the end, take her son. The membrane will fail to fully close off his airway, and he will emerge from the oxygen tent. He will attend the funerals of classmates who die of diphtheria and polio. He will, in time, run alongside his friend , a fine athlete born blind after his mother contracted rubella during pregnancy. He will rattle a stone in a can to guide his friend to the finish line.

Throughout his schooling, children he knows will die from disease.




‘I’d like to take anti-vaxxers back in time’, says Tom Keneally, here aged five, shortly before he contracted diphtheria. Photograph: Supplied

He will, through luck, survive. He is still alive now, at the age of 85. He’s my father, and his name is Tom Keneally.









						‘No concept of how awful it was’: the forgotten world of pre-vaccine childhood in Australia
					

Until relatively recently, lethal infectious diseases stalked the lives of Australian children – including my father, Tom Keneally. Vaccines have saved millions




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Belli (16 August 2021)

basilio said:


> diphtheria take other children.




Brings back family memories.  My mother was one of seven children.  Three of them died before the age of four due to diphtheria.


----------



## moXJO (16 August 2021)

I think antivax and anti mandatory for the covid vax are miles apart. 

The truly antivax are a very small %.

Anti covid vax are larger %.

And anti mandatory vax make up a greater portion again.


----------



## basilio (16 August 2021)

Excellent analysis of the cost of dealing with COVID.  
Few highlights.

_..Had NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian called a two-week lockdown when the Delta variant first appeared in beachside Bondi — and it worked — the total cost would have been less than $3 billion.

AMP Capital's Shane Oliver last week put the total bill so far at $17 billion. And counting. With the variant now running rampant, the total could end up several times more, if it can be contained at all._

_...Health or economy – a false choice_​_Remember the stark choice last year when the first wave of the pandemic hit? You could have either a healthy population or a vibrant economy. But you couldn't have both.

Business leaders and economists across the globe pressured their governments to remain open and simply deal with the pandemic the best way they could.

Except, the entire argument was wrong.

A study by management consultant group McKinsey found countries that imposed the bare minimum of restrictions were hit just as hard by the economic downturn but suffered terribly on a health and social level.

McKinsey concluded that lockdowns were not the problem. It was the virus. Health and the economy went hand in hand and countries that contained the virus best were in pole position for a rapid economic recovery._

.._.Premier Mark McGowan routinely is castigated for his isolationist policies and his rigid determination to keep the state COVID free. But when Brazil's iron ore exports plunged after COVID outbreaks crippled its mines following a refusal by Brazil's President Jair Bolsonaro to acknowledge the seriousness of the pandemic, WA's mines picked up the slack.

The end result? Australia shipped record amounts of ore as prices soared, swelling the federal government tax coffers at a crucial time.

In the absence of vaccines, it pays to be decisive._









						The NSW Government's failure to act swiftly and contain the Delta outbreak has cost our state heavily
					

As a health strategy, the soft lockdown approach has been an abject failure. From a national economic viewpoint, the ongoing apprehension about total lockdown has come at enormous cost, writes Ian Verrender.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (16 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> I think antivax and anti mandatory for the covid vax are miles apart.
> 
> The truly antivax are a very small %.
> 
> ...



I probably see anywhere from 2 to 7 clients every working day. As I've only been back in Perth for 3 1/2 months, most are fairly, or very new to me.

As it is topical, the conversation invariably revolves around the covid drugs as I am working.

I haven't really quantified it in a formal way, but it seems to me that although I haven't met any genuine anti-vaxxers (in the overall sense), I would say somewhere around half are either hesitant, or at this stage do not want to have the injection at all.

These are just ordinary people with a reasonable amount of wealth, mostly high paying jobs or small business owners, who can afford horses, not a radical among them.

Just and observation for what it's worth.


----------



## pozindustrial (17 August 2021)

Another top level doctor exploding the vaccine myth. He has treated 6000 patients with Covid using his protocol.








						Dr. Vladimir Zelenko Testifies In Front Of Rabinnical Court In Israel On 'The Death Shots' - Tsionizm
					

Why Would You Vaccinate Children? Only If You Believe In Child Sacrifice.




					tsionizm.com
				



We need to wake up.


----------



## rederob (17 August 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Another top level doctor exploding the vaccine myth. He has treated 6000 patients with Covid using his protocol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Zero data to back his claims.
Zelenko is so ignorant of vaccines that he does not understand the concept of "*breakthroughs.*"  Nor does he understand that the vaccine's spike protein is non-replicating.
His claims on miscarriages is proven false, which is consistent with the lack of knowledge he displayed throughout his presentation .
Why are you posting such rubbish here @pozindustrial?


----------



## macca (17 August 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> Another top level doctor exploding the vaccine myth. He has treated 6000 patients with Covid using his protocol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And they ask Why post news that doesn't fit the agenda, remember this is calculated using the actual figures from the UK Govt data

<<Table 17 of the 21st July report shows deaths due to Covid-19 by vaccination status between 29th December 2020, and 8th July 2021, just two days after alleged Covid-19 deaths have begun to rise again in Scotland. The table again shows the majority are unvaccinated, but we’ve already proven this is a deception.

As of the 8th July, 2,962 deaths were in the unvaccinated population. As of the 15th July, 2,967 deaths were in the unvaccinated population. This is an increase of 5.

As of the 8th July, 257 deaths were people who’d had just one dose of  a Covid-19 vaccine, however they may have had two doses due to PHS adding them to the one dose figures if their second dose was less than 14 days prior to their death. As of the 15th July, 262 people who’d had just one dose of a Covid-19 vaccine had died of Covid-19. This is an increase of 5.

As of the 8th July, 64 deaths were in the fully vaccinated population. As of the 15th July, 92 deaths were in the fully vaccinated population. This is an increase of 28.

*This means that people who’ve been vaccinated against Covid-19 account for 87% of the deaths in the third wave of deaths in Scotland that have just begun. The fully vaccinated account for 74% of the deaths that have only just begun to occur again, those who’d had a single dose account for 13% of the deaths, and the unvaccinated account for just 13% of the deaths.









						EXCLUSIVE - Covid-19 deaths are rising and official data shows 87% of the people who have died were Vaccinated
					

Alleged Covid-19 deaths are on the rise again in the United Kingdom, with both England and Scotland seeing significant rises since the end of June, and we can e




					dailyexpose.co.uk
				



*


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

Sweden, despite it's detractors, continues to be right.

Australia's approach is 2 years away from being where Sweden is now. This is the deepest irony, considering he wokeness of Sweden.





__





						Sweden: Despite Variants, No Lockdowns, No Daily COVID Deaths | ZeroHedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


----------



## IFocus (17 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Sweden, despite it's detractors, continues to be right.
> 
> Australia's approach is 2 years away from being where Sweden is now. This is the deepest irony, considering he wokeness of Sweden.
> 
> ...





Well here is an idea, if you think Swedens so good how about going for gold and get us on the way to herd immunity!

Just pop over to NSW catch COVID and prove us all wrong simple.


----------



## pozindustrial (17 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Well here is an idea, if you think Swedens so good how about going for gold and get us on the way to herd immunity!
> 
> Just pop over to NSW catch COVID and prove us all wrong simple.



The problem is treatment. We are led to believe that there is no treatment option other than a vaccine. If there was a treatment option that resulted in a major reduction in deaths and hospital stay times like we normally expect from our health system there would be no problem in allowing Covid to spread. Less of a problem than the flu most years.
If you take some time to play the video link I put up four posts above you will see that such treatment options are available, they have been proven, they do work, many hospitals and doctors have been telling about it, but they have been rejected which is criminal. As I have been saying repeatedly we need to wake up to what is going on! We need to force our government leaders to stop taking advice from "experts" who have vested interests in drug companies.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Well here is an idea, if you think Swedens so good how about going for gold and get us on the way to herd immunity!
> 
> Just pop over to NSW catch COVID and prove us all wrong simple.



You don't really listen to yourself, do you?


----------



## wabullfrog (17 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Sweden, despite it's detractors, continues to be right.
> 
> Australia's approach is 2 years away from being where Sweden is now. This is the deepest irony, considering he wokeness of Sweden.
> 
> ...




The Author does omit that Sweden had to further tighten those restrictions at the start of March & then were not able to begin easing them until 1 June

It will be interesting to see how they go as they are only part way through the 5 Step easing plan & cases numbers are starting to slowly tick up again.


----------



## rederob (17 August 2021)

macca said:


> And they ask Why post news that doesn't fit the agenda, remember this is calculated using the actual figures from the UK Govt data
> 
> <<Table 17 of the 21st July report shows deaths due to Covid-19 by vaccination status between 29th December 2020, and 8th July 2021, just two days after alleged Covid-19 deaths have begun to rise again in Scotland. The table again shows the majority are unvaccinated, but we’ve already proven this is a deception.



You continue to misunderstand the inevitability of maths.  
If nobody is unvaccinated, then all cases are unvaccinated.
If everyone is vaccinated then all cases are vaccinated.
Accordingly, as vaccinated numbers increase, the share of vaccinated cases increases from 0 to 100%.

I am not sure what agenda you refer to as the actual figures you link to show exactly what we would expect.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

wabullfrog said:


> The Author does omit that Sweden had to further tighten those restrictions at the start of March & then were not able to begin easing them until 1 June
> 
> It will be interesting to see how they go as they are only part way through the 5 Step easing plan & cases numbers are starting to slowly tick up again.



Still at nothing like the Australian "Ausgangsbeschränkung macht frei”  junta, now us it?


----------



## rederob (17 August 2021)

pozindustrial said:


> The problem is treatment. We are led to believe that there is no treatment option other than a vaccine.



This is not the case at all.  There are well documented treatments in use around the world.  
Given vaccinations reduce illness, then they lower the number of potential cases needing treatment, which seems a smart option, especially as it also significantly reduces the chance of dying.



pozindustrial said:


> If you take some time to play the video link I put up four posts above you will see that such treatment options are available, they have been proven, they do work, many hospitals and doctors have been telling about it, but they have been rejected which is criminal.



Proven treatment regimes are currently being adopted, while your link features a doctor who is so clueless he thinks vaccine spike proteins replicate after injection.


----------



## macca (17 August 2021)

Given that 26% of the population are not vaccinated and they only make up 13% of the deaths it indicates that it may be safer to be not vaccinated with the vaccines they use in the UK.

However, the main point to my posting is the BS that once we get to X% vaccinated we can relax.

The vaccine is like the flu vaccine, if you have the wrong shot and a variant turns up you can still be in trouble.

We will eventually have to do what was forecast last year, treat the disease the same way we treat every other disease with meds that ease the symptoms while still working on a better vaccine.

The Novavax state they are a traditional vaccine, that could be interesting


----------



## bellenuit (17 August 2021)

macca said:


> Given that 26% of the population are not vaccinated and they only make up 13% of the deaths it indicates that it may be safer to be not vaccinated with the vaccines they use in the UK.




Without having the chance to delve deeper, one would need to know more about the make up of who is dying. 26% unvaccinated in the general population probably translates to a much lower percentage among the elderly (who are probably the vast majority of who are dying) as it was the elderly who were targeted for vaccination first and those under 40 have only recently been targeted for vaccination.


----------



## wayneL (17 August 2021)

macca said:


> The Novavax state they are a traditional vaccine, that could be interesting



That would make me slightly less hesitant... But still would like to satisfy myself of long-term safety.


----------



## macca (17 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Without having the chance to delve deeper, one would need to know more about the make up of who is dying. 26% unvaccinated in the general population probably translates to a much lower percentage among the elderly (who are probably the vast majority of who are dying) as it was the elderly who were targeted for vaccination first and those under 40 have only recently been targeted for vaccination.




True, not really able to nail it down but looking at general figures in UK it is still the older people making up the majority of deaths.

It also follows that >90% of older folk are vaccinated, looking at BBC charts, it is assumed that more would have died if not vaccinated.

Covid has certainly changed the world,(unfortunately) the BBs and our children have had a dream run but it is well and truly over I fear.


----------



## bellenuit (17 August 2021)

macca said:


> It also follows that >90% of older folk are vaccinated, looking at BBC charts, it is assumed that more would have died if not vaccinated.




But if that is the case then your argument that _i*t may be safer to be not vaccinated with the vaccines they use in the UK*_ doesn't hold.

Your statement should read (in relation to the population group that is experiencing the deaths): _Given that 10% of that population group are not vaccinated and they make up 13% of the deaths it indicates that it may be safer to be vaccinated with the vaccines they use in the UK_. The percentage of deaths of the unvaccinated is higher than their percentage make up of the population.

Although I would have expected a higher number of deaths among the unvaccinated in the UK, their proportion is staggeringly higher in the US compared to their percentage make up of the population. Perhaps the difference is related to AZ vs Pfizer, but I am sure the health systems of both countries has an effect as does the influence of the GOP, Fox and some other right wing media in the US south where many states have lost control of the situation.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 August 2021)

Sometimes I wonder about the mentality of the people in Government.
From ABC NEWS



> Victorian officials have ramped up a push for more people to be tested for COVID-19 amid fears the virus is spreading undetected in Melbourne.
> 
> A new campaign urges people to assume any cold or flu symptoms are COVID-19 and get tested straight away
> An infectious diseases specialist says this outbreak is different to others this year due to mystery cases
> ...



Has it not occurred to thee Governments  that people have worked out that if they don't get tested, the reported numbers will go down, and there is a chance of getting out of lockdown.  
We still don't know how many of the cases are asymptomatic.
There  will be some unknown number of people who have had the disease and were asymptomatic but were never tested., and I suspect that number will get higher for two reasons. 
Firstly, a good percentage of people who have been fully vaxed are  not going to submit to testing regardless of  exortations unless they get really sick.
Secondly, if as suggested the Vaxines are effective against the disease, the percentage of  people getting the disease, decreases, so there are fewer people showing symptoms, and fewer people seeing the need to get tested.
I went searching for statistics, but the latest study I could find was from RACP but was dated nov 3 2020, mostly before the delta variant had made its way around. other studies from University of Colorado  and from Iceland  have the asymptomatic level at somewhere between 10 and 60%. However, both of these are from last year. 
The official  Oz govt website (The Govmint ) does not appear to keep those statistics either (at least not in my searching).
Mick


----------



## rederob (18 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Sometimes I wonder about the mentality of the people in Government.
> From ABC NEWS
> Has it not occurred to thee Governments  that people have worked out that if they don't get tested, the reported numbers will go down, and there is a chance of getting out of lockdown.



Contact tracing will lead to cases over and above voluntary testing.  Aside from that modelling determines the likely ongoing spread and duration.
Beyond that, we know that even without testing, cases will turn up at doctors surgeries and at hospitals. 
The idea that if people are *not* being tested then regions get out of lockdowns sooner is unsound as the reverse is more likely.  That's because quarantining and isolation are key to minimising spread.  So if cases are not found, spread is exacerbated and becomes exponential. That's also the consistent message from NSW at 11am each morning.


----------



## sptrawler (18 August 2021)

Mixed messages still prevail.




__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				




And on the other hand.




__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au


----------



## basilio (19 August 2021)

Looking very ugly on the  COVID infection rate today. Steep jump in Melbourne and NSW is also increasing and spreading infections.
It seems that the Caulfield  engagement party  has kicked away a series of infections in St Kilda, Elwood and Caulfield.









						#EngagementParty Fall-Out Continues - A Rich Life
					

Further details including Covid transmission have emerged about the illegal engagement party that took place in Melbourne over the weekend




					arichlife.com.au
				











						High number of COVID cases expected in Victoria today as thousands finish quarantine tests
					

Premier Daniel Andrews says the highest daily number of infections so far this year, with most in quarantine, shows the "system working exactly as it should work".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## over9k (19 August 2021)

Yeah, so, like I said a solid couple of weeks ago before selling a whole heap of stuff off... 

We're f***ed. 


You can't put this genie back in the bottle.


----------



## Joules MM1 (19 August 2021)

The association between COVID-19 vaccination and Bell's palsy
					

In the past 100 days, more than 3 billion doses of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines have been administered globally.1 With 20 vaccines currently authorised in at least one country and 108 under clinical development as of July 20, 2021,2 there is ongoing public concern regarding the possible adverse effects...



					www.thelancet.com
				




thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00467-9/fulltext

Bells' Palsy


----------



## basilio (20 August 2021)

Have to say the rapid spread of the Delta virus and now the emergence of a Delta Plus version is  bad news.
We aren't getting on top of the current infections let alone an even nastier/more contagious new version.

This story has neat video explainer of how the virus operates and the new version currently moving through India.









						The premiers of NSW and Victoria both referred to modelling yesterday. Their interpretations were very different
					

Victoria's strategy remains squarely focused on returning to zero cases, while NSW's message is that it's learning to live with Delta "earlier than others".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## bellenuit (20 August 2021)

The "Israel" issue has been brought up many times and misleading interpretations of figures such as 60% of severe cases being of vaccinated put forward to suggest that the vaccines "cause" the symptoms or that they aren't working. Although explanations have been provided, I think this article excellently explains what is happening. I'll jump to the conclusion, but the full article needs to be read to appreciate what is happening.

_In conclusion, as long as there is a major age disparity in vaccination rates, with older individuals being more highly vaccinated, then the fact that older people have an inherently higher risk of hospitalization when infected with a respiratory virus means that it is always important to stratify results by age; if not the overall efficacy will be biased downwards and a poor representation of how well the vaccine is working in preventing serious disease (the same holds for efficacy vs. death). Even more fundamentally, it is important to use infection and disease rates (per 100k, e.g.) and not raw counts to compare unvaccinated and vaccinated groups to adjust for the proportion vaccinated.   Use of raw counts exaggerates the vaccine efficacy when vaccinated proportion is low and attenuates the vaccine efficacy when, like in Israel, vaccines proportions are high.  _

Israeli data: How can efficacy vs. severe disease be strong when 60% of hospitalized are vaccinated?​








						Israeli data: How can efficacy vs. severe disease be strong when 60% of hospitalized are vaccinated?
					

A surge involving the rapidly-transmitting Delta variant in heavily vaccinated countries has led to much hand-wringing that the vaccines are not effective against Delta, or vaccine effectivenss wanes after 4-6 months.  This has fueled anti-vaccine sentiment suggesting the vaccines are not...




					www.covid-datascience.com


----------



## wayneL (20 August 2021)

And then there is this article... it's going to take 2 or 3 years just to figure out who is telling the god damn truth.





__





						Zerohedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


----------



## bellenuit (20 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> it's going to take 2 or 3 years just to figure out who is telling the god damn truth.




Actually we know who is telling the god damn truth, but you don't want to accept it. The Ivermectin stories have been debunked hundreds of times, but you still keep pushing them. Yes, there have been some success with treating Covid in some trials, but it is not a substitute for a vaccine. Those trials showing outstanding success have been shown to be deeply flawed in their methodology.

Why don't you just admit you are an anti-vaxxer, the same as most of the other nutters out there. You pretend you have an open mind, but all we see is you continually casting doubt on results presented by proper medical authorities and at the same time presenting many of the dubious counter arguments that the anti-vaxxers use. We have always to investigate those arguments and show you their flaws, something you utterly seem incapable of doing, though you are an intelligent person.  If you really had an open mind you would check them out yourself.


----------



## wayneL (20 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Actually we know who is telling the god damn truth, but you don't want to accept it. The Ivermectin stories have been debunked hundreds of times, but you still keep pushing them. Yes, there have been some success with treating Covid in some trials, but it is not a substitute for a vaccine. Those trials showing outstanding success have been shown to be deeply flawed in their methodology.
> 
> Why don't you just admit you are an anti-vaxxer, the same as most of the other nutters out there. You pretend you have an open mind, but all we see is you continually casting doubt on results presented by proper medical authorities and at the same time presenting many of the dubious counter arguments that the anti-vaxxers use. We have always to investigate those arguments and show you their flaws, something you utterly seem incapable of doing, though you are an intelligent person.  If you really had an open mind you would check them out yourself.



 You fool.

I had a tetanus booster this week, and had had all sorts of vaxes from cholera to smallpox to tuberculosis to yellow fever. If I ever satisfy myself that I would be happy with the risk reward proposition then I would have no problems with getting whatever vax is appropriate.

How many times do I have to state this for you idiots?

In no way am I an antivaxxer and you are an absolute idiot for using that phrase.

Also I have no challenge whatsoever for whoever wants to be vaccinated now. In fact I thank you because it gives me an opportunity for me and my family to be able to have data to evaluate.

I put these articles up for interest and for debate. if they are debunked then that is good, that is good information for me. You on the other hand would seem be happy to be Winston's tormenters in 1984.


----------



## basilio (20 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Actually we know who is telling the god damn truth, but you don't want to accept it. The Ivermectin stories have been debunked hundreds of times, but you still keep pushing them. Yes, there have been some success with treating Covid in some trials, but it is not a substitute for a vaccine. Those trials showing outstanding success have been shown to be deeply flawed in their methodology.
> 
> Why don't you just admit you are an anti-vaxxer, the same as most of the other nutters out there. *You pretend you have an open mind, but all we see is you continually casting doubt on results presented by proper medical authorities and at the same time presenting many of the dubious counter arguments that the anti-vaxxers use. We have always to investigate those arguments and show you their flaws, something you utterly seem incapable of doing, though you are an intelligent person.  If you really had an open mind you would check them out yourself.*




A bit strong... but perhaps not. 
IMV well worth articulating.


----------



## basilio (20 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> And then there is this article... it's going to take 2 or 3 years just to figure out who is telling the god damn truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The reality is simple.
Zero Hedge has Zero credibility as an information source.


----------



## wayneL (20 August 2021)

basilio said:


> The reality is simple.
> Zero Hedge has Zero credibility as an information source.



Oh yes, I forgot that the guardian is the font of all knowledge 😉


----------



## basilio (20 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Oh yes, I forgot that the guardian is the font of all knowledge 😉



Not so.
And I won't say that everything Zero Hedge says is wrong.
But having read and checked many of the stories you post, particularity by "Tyler Durden", I wouldn't trust anything  said under that name without corroborating evidence.

This is the origin of the Invermectin story you posted.








						India's Ivermectin Blackout
					

Ivermectin Wins in India




					www.thedesertreview.com


----------



## wayneL (20 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Not so.
> And I won't say that everything Zero Hedge says is wrong.
> But having read and checked many of the stories you post, particularity by "Tyler Durden", I wouldn't trust anything  said under that name without corroborating evidence.
> 
> ...



Did you follow and investigate the links presented in the article?


----------



## basilio (20 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Did you follow and investigate the links presented in the article?



I did.  And honestly it was very impressive. Truly was.
After reading it I can  well understand a view that believes Invermectin has a place in the treatment of COVID.

*But having said that I also note some quite important contra points around the  integrity of the trials.* Interestingly enough I never found any mention of the dodgy/fraudulent Egyptian Invermectin trial in the extensive information in the FLACC website





__





						Ivermectin - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
					

Like penicillin and aspirin, ivermectin is a medication that derives from nature.  Although it was little known in advanced health economies before COVID, the drug has an incredible history of promoting health in underdeveloped countries. Approved for human use in 1987, it has been instrumental...




					covid19criticalcare.com
				











						Ivermectin (Still) Lacks Scientific Support as a COVID-19 Drug
					

A Cochrane review bolsters scientists' advice that ivermectin should not be used against the disease outside of clinical trials, while a study claiming to have found beneficial effects in patients was withdrawn following allegations of data manipulation.




					www.the-scientist.com
				











						A major ivermectin study has been withdrawn, so what now for the controversial drug?
					

Investigations have led to the withdrawal of a study backing ivermectin to treat COVID-19. But that’s not the last time we’ll hear about this controversial drug.




					theconversation.com
				











						False claims about Ivermectin as a proven Covid-19 treatment
					

Prominent influencers are falsely pushing Ivermectin as a proven Covid-19 treatment. Some scientists have described it as the “new hydroxychloroquine,” the anti-malaria drug that continues to be falsely promoted as a Covid-19 cure despite multiple studies that show no clinical benefit...




					firstdraftnews.org


----------



## wayneL (20 August 2021)

basilio said:


> I did.  And honestly it was very impressive. Truly was.
> After reading it I can  well understand a view that believes Invermectin has a place in the treatment of COVID.
> 
> *But having said that I also note some quite important contra points around the  integrity of the trials.* Interestingly enough I never found any mention of the dodgy/fraudulent Egyptian Invermectin trial in the extensive information in the FLACC website
> ...




and this is why I keep bringing it up and it can't hurt to get more and more data. I don't think it can be denied that there are both mercantile and political agendas around the whole scenario both for and against whatever treatment who's been proposed.

That's what I am trying to get to the bottom of.

I'm actually well acquainted with ivermectin over decades in animal treatment, and know it should be, at least in that arena, completely safe.

I actually didn't know it was used in humans until just recently, but note that it is deemed to be a Safe drug as observed over a very long time.

It is also worth noting that it seems to be a cocktail of ivermectin, doxycycline, and seeing which appears to be effective.

We know that studies can be fraudulent, of poor design, and with erroneous conclusions. and that's not just in medicine but in all areas of science.

As I have stated elsewhere on this forum, I take my health very seriously and have been an avid consumer of both nutrition and exercise physiology science, both for humans and equines.

That I am not a scientist I know how to read science, at least in those Fields, and I know that 90% of it can be chucked straight in the waste paper basket.

So that's where I'm at and not of my opinions on this matter are set in stone.


----------



## rederob (20 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> and this is why I keep bringing it up and it can't hurt to get more and more data. I don't think it can be denied that there are both mercantile and political agendas around the whole scenario both for and against whatever treatment who's been proposed.



You need to look in the right place - there's actually a *health *agenda and it not in twitterdom so I guess we see your problem.


wayneL said:


> We know that studies can be fraudulent, of poor design, and with erroneous conclusions. and that's not just in medicine but in all areas of science.



Given the immediate attention paid to covid claims in medical science the rubbish is constantly being tossed out, and snake oil sales folk are regularly debunked.  What we know about ivermectin is that trial research remains inconclusive.  Moreover, there are other drugs with *proven *results in treating covid symptoms and they are in use.


wayneL said:


> That I am not a scientist I know how to read science, at least in those Fields, and I know that 90% of it can be chucked straight in the waste paper basket.



Your links suggest a poor understanding of this topic.
And people go to doctors for the best medical care, not witch doctors anymore.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 August 2021)

basilio said:


> The reality is simple.
> Zero Hedge has Zero credibility as an information source.



And therein lies the problem.
People pick and choose the sources as they see fit.
Instead of providing coherent, logical reasons,  people bag the source.
Its so much easier than having to back anything up.
Look at the those who hate the ABC, hate the Guardian, hate anything from "the Murdoch Press".
No wonder the world is so divided.
Mick


----------



## basilio (21 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And therein lies the problem.
> People pick and choose the sources as they see fit.
> Instead of providing coherent, logical reasons,  people bag the source.
> Its so much easier than having to back anything up.
> ...



Nuh . I check out posts from Zero Hedge. They aren't all extra right wing  poisonous rubbish. Much is but not all..  

But essentially when I notice a  wide disregard for facts as well as quite an extreme political view I  wouldn't put it my list of go to sites.

You might have also noticed that I directly addressed the question Wayne raised regarding the use of Invermectin on it's merits.


----------



## over9k (21 August 2021)

Zerohedge is like the internet at large - amongst 10,000 posts of absolute drivel there is some genuine brilliance if you know how to recognise it.


----------



## rederob (21 August 2021)

basilio said:


> You might have also noticed that I directly addressed the question Wayne raised regarding the use of Invermectin on it's merits.



Relying on sources *other *than medical science for claims about drugs is not a good practice, yet has been consistent by some posters in this thread.
Ivermectin is not a recommended treatment protocol according to world experts, but seems to have taken over from hydroxychloroquine in the pseudoscience realm.


----------



## bellenuit (21 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> I put these articles up for interest and for debate. if they are debunked then that is good, that is good information for me




So you don't care if they have been debunked already, you will post them anyway? If they have been debunked then what you are posting is misleading, but you are relying on others to point out the faults to you. 

I don't care what vaccines you may have taken, if you act like an anti-vaxxer then you are an anti-vaxxer in my eyes. I don't recall you ever posting anything positive about the COVID vaccines just always pointing to negative articles "in the interests of debate".

It's so similar to the people who start their posts with "I am not an anti-vaxxer *BUT*... " and then continue to only post negative garbage about vaccines with no fact checking.


----------



## wayneL (21 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> So you don't care if they have been debunked already, you will post them anyway? If they have been debunked then what you are posting is misleading, but you are relying on others to point out the faults to you.
> 
> I don't care what vaccines you may have taken, if you act like an anti-vaxxer then you are an anti-vaxxer in my eyes. I don't recall you ever posting anything positive about the COVID vaccines just always pointing to negative articles "in the interests of debate".
> 
> It's so similar to the people who start their posts with "I am not an anti-vaxxer *BUT*... " and then continue to only post negative garbage about vaccines with no fact checking.



Fine, that makes you an idiot in my eyes.


----------



## over9k (21 August 2021)

Regional vic now in lockdown, authorities say we're "right on the edge of this getting away from us". 

Nah, you think?


----------



## basilio (21 August 2021)

There are always  ongoing conversations about how serious (or not so serious) COVID is in terms of deaths and overall effects on the economies of various countries.

The Economist has an excellent detailed analysis of COVID deaths around the world. It also tabulates excess deaths around the world as a way of recognising that many deaths  may not be noted as COVID related simply because of inadequate recording systems in times of intense widespread illnesses.

Some examples:






You will note that Australia doesn't get a look with the these top 20 COVID death countries. Our figures are :-

*Australia ....................   Apr  6th-Mar 28th  2021........... 860 ...............  -4,440 ............................... -17 !*

Essentially we had 4,400 fewer deaths over the last two COVID years . Yep thousands of people who would normally die from seasonal flu or perhaps road accidents or something else... didn't.









						Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries
					

In many parts of the world, official death tolls undercount the total number of fatalities




					www.economist.com
				




​


​


----------



## basilio (21 August 2021)

One of the ongoing discussions has been on the effectiveness of Sweden's "light touch" restrictions.  The graphs detailing deaths across the Northern European countries highlights what has happened to date.

_Countries in northern Europe have generally experienced much lower mortality rates throughout the pandemic. Some Nordic nations have experienced almost no excess deaths at all. The exception is Sweden, which imposed some of the continent’s least restrictive social-distancing measures during the first wave._









						Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries
					

In many parts of the world, official death tolls undercount the total number of fatalities




					www.economist.com
				




_








_


----------



## DB008 (21 August 2021)

I like the Florida approach (if we had enough supply to meet demand).

Australia and Florida have a similar population size but their COVID-19 policies are vastly different​
Australian entrepreneur Nick Sharp — originally from Victoria — runs several cafes and restaurants, and now owns an Aussie brew pub called Bay13, in Miami. His staff are free to wear masks or get vaccinated — or not, it's their choice.​​"There's no restrictions, so everybody's free to go to work, to go to school, and to go out to restaurants or retail," he told 7.30.​​"At the moment, down here, there's no mandates for vaccines or for masks.​​"Like we keep saying, everybody has the choice. If you want to get vaccinated, you can. It's widely available, it's free. Testing is still readily available.​​"And of course people, if they want to, can wear masks — and that's kind of been the stance here for quite a while now."​​Australia's population of 26 million is comparable to Florida's 22 million, but when you consider the figures around COVID-19, the numbers are starkly different.​​Currently, Australia's daily COVID-19 cases are being measured in the hundreds, but last week Florida recorded more than 150,000 cases.​​The total number of deaths in Australia is still less than 1,000. Florida has now passed 41,000, by some reports.​

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08...n-zero-covid-objective-vaccinations/100391760​

.


----------



## Joules MM1 (21 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> okie





and one step beyond


----------



## divs4ever (21 August 2021)

over9k said:


> Regional vic now in lockdown, authorities say we're "right on the edge of this getting away from us".
> 
> Nah, you think?



are they quarantining in the rural hotels now ( say near the borders ) ??

 of course that might mean they have run out of city folks willing to be tested  , so have moved the testing to regional areas


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> and one step beyond




That mrna video failed to mention lipid nanoparticles and how we are basically an experiment for long term effects. 
So far we know its caused thyroid, heart and other organ problems. 

I'm not convinced it's safe.


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2021)

Let's look back at 2017

https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/


> But mRNA is a tricky technology. Several major pharmaceutical companies have tried and abandoned the idea, struggling to get mRNA into cells without triggering nasty side effects.





> In order to protect mRNA molecules from the body’s natural defenses, drug developers must wrap them in a protective casing. For Moderna, that meant putting its Crigler-Najjar therapy in nanoparticles made of lipids. And for its chemists, those nanoparticles created a daunting challenge: Dose too little, and you don’t get enough enzyme to affect the disease; dose too much, and the drug is too toxic for patients.



It's a given that tech has moved on from 2017.

Funny how the article mentioned vaccines were loss makers back then. I bet they ain't now. I'm sure pfizer just upped their prices.

We are test subjects for a new medical breakthrough that will change the treatment of many diseases. 

They still hadn't perfected it 2019
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03072-8


And now it's being pushed out as the safest one. Whatever.... but don't go bleating anywhere on this forum that it's safe. It was out in what was literally months.



Any of you anti's might be interested in this: needs to be scrutinised for accuracy though.
mRNA, Nanolipid Particles and PEG: A Triad Never Used in Clinical Vaccines is Going to Be Tested on Hundreds of Millions of People


----------



## over9k (22 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> and one step beyond




It's hard to win an argument with an intelligent person, but it's damn well impossible to win an argument with an idiot.


----------



## sptrawler (22 August 2021)

Not much mention in the media, about the protestors banners saying "the media is the virus", usually the protestors and their claims get plenty of airplay.
It mustn't fit the narrative, I bet if the banners said something derogatory about the Government, it would be splashed all over the front pages.   🤣
It is great to see that even the radicals, are recognising the media, for the players they are.


----------



## rederob (22 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Not much mention in the media, about the protestors banners saying "the media is the virus", usually the protestors and their claims get plenty of airplay.
> It mustn't fit the narrative, I bet if the banners said something derogatory about the Government, it would be splashed all over the front pages.   🤣
> It is great to see that even the radicals, are recognising the media, for the players they are.



Your obsession with what the media report is interesting.
People who protest for the right to infect others in a pandemic shows a level of hypocrisy which beggars belief.
As to what what was written on placards, what actually made sense?





I scanned a lot of media coverage and it mostly showed people who have no idea what covid has done to other countries which tool a lax approach to its containment.
More importantly it showed that they have no respect for laws.


----------



## over9k (22 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Not much mention in the media, about the protestors banners saying "the media is the virus", usually the protestors and their claims get plenty of airplay.
> It mustn't fit the narrative, I bet if the banners said something derogatory about the Government, it would be splashed all over the front pages.   🤣
> It is great to see that even the radicals, are recognising the media, for the players they are.



The radicals were the first ones saying it...


----------



## Joules MM1 (22 August 2021)

Michael Z. David, MD, PhD

@MichaelDavid80
·
7h

In about 3 days, the number of PubMed citations to COVID-19 in PubMed (now 168,928, all in 2020-21) 
                                                                    will exceed those for Staphylococcus (169,445, for 1881-2021).


----------



## Joules MM1 (22 August 2021)

over9k said:


> It's hard to win an argument with an intelligent person, but it's damn well impossible to win an argument with an idiot.



possibly two rampant diseases, Sars-Cov2 and Dunning-Kruger

Doctor google sez 
Dunning-Kruger effect, in psychology, *a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly* overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.

haha .."or of people in general" !!
https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect


----------



## bellenuit (22 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> Dunning-Kruger effect, in psychology, *a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly* overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.




In other words, too stupid to know they are stupid. John Cleese references Dunning in this short video on the subject...


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> possibly two rampant diseases, Sars-Cov2 and Dunning-Kruger
> 
> Doctor google sez
> Dunning-Kruger effect, in psychology, *a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly* overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.
> ...



doesn't this cover both sides. Or do we have specialists in our midst?


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Your obsession with what the media report is interesting.
> People who protest for the right to infect others in a pandemic shows a level of hypocrisy which beggars belief.
> As to what what was written on placards, what actually made sense?
> View attachment 129290
> ...



I think media coverage of this type of rubbish doesn't allow the legitimate concerns to be aired. The fact that now people are entrenched on either side of the debate just boggles the mind.

Vaccination is the way forward. But imo valid questions still remain.


----------



## sptrawler (22 August 2021)

rederob said:


> More importantly it showed that they have no respect for laws.



Absolutely, same as those spray painting graffiti slogans, at parliament house the other week.
By the way, it isn't an obsession, it's an observation. 
An obsession is what you have, where you think one sector of the media is more biased than the other, I think all the media is biased.


----------



## over9k (22 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> possibly two rampant diseases, Sars-Cov2 and Dunning-Kruger
> 
> Doctor google sez
> Dunning-Kruger effect, in psychology, *a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly* overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.
> ...



Yeah it's actually quite simple really: 

You need to have a relatively high level of intellect in order to be able to actually accurately assess your own intellect. Ergo, no stupid person is actually capable of knowing how intelligent (or not) they are.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 August 2021)

Stupidity and intelligence are not always the equivalent.
There are some remarkably intelligent people who have said and done some very stupid things.
Just a couple come to mind .
Bill Clinton having an affair with  an intern then lying about it under oath.
Gladys  having an affair with a corrupt  fellow politician and thinking it would not get out.
Tony Abbott giving a gong to Prince Phillip.
Mark Latham joining  Pauline Hanson's party.
Just about anything that Kevin Rudd has said or done since he got the flick from the PM Job.
And one thats very topical. 
Andrew Wakefield, a Doctor and researcher who had already had a number of papers published in the Lancet,  falsified a lot of the data in a paper that the Lancet published  that said there was link between Autism and the Rubella/mumps/measles vaccination. not only he, but a lot of others paid a high price for that piece of stupidity.
I could go on, but you get the drift.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (22 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> possibly two rampant diseases, Sars-Cov2 and Dunning-Kruger
> 
> Doctor google sez
> Dunning-Kruger effect, in psychology, *a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly* overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.
> ...



There is a corollary to this premise.
The so called bias blind spot.
This is where the media finds itself now.
The ABC , Kevin Rudd, Malcolm Turnbull , and plenty of thers see the Murdoch press as being totally biased.
On the other hand, The Murdoch press sees the ABC, Fairfax, Channel nine, and just about everyone else as biased.
From  Pubmed 


> The so-called bias blind spot arises when people report that thinking biases are more prevalent in others than in themselves. Bias turns out to be relatively easy to recognize in the behaviors of others, but often difficult to detect in one's own judgments. Most previous research on the bias blind spot has focused on bias in the social domain. In 2 studies, we found replicable bias blind spots with respect to many of the classic cognitive biases studied in the heuristics and biases literature (e.g., Tversky & Kahneman, 1974). Further, we found that none of these bias blind spots were attenuated by measures of cognitive sophistication such as cognitive ability or thinking dispositions related to bias. If anything, a larger bias blind spot was associated with higher cognitive ability. Additional analyses indicated that being free of the bias blind spot does not help a person avoid the actual classic cognitive biases. We discuss these findings in terms of a generic dual-process theory of cognition.



Mick


----------



## bellenuit (22 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> doesn't this cover both sides. Or do we have specialists in our midst?



It covers both sides, but those aware of their lack of knowledge on a particular subject should be self aware enough to defer to experts in the area. In relation to covid, these would be disease control organisations like the CDC or other health experts, not social influencers or the like and in particular not random articles found on social media from dubious sources.


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

‘Customers may experience some delays’ amid spike in Australia Post volume


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> There is a corollary to this premise.
> The so called bias blind spot.
> This is where the media finds itself now.
> The ABC , Kevin Rudd, Malcolm Turnbull , and plenty of thers see the Murdoch press as being totally biased.
> ...



more like Murdoch will change his views  to harvest the  most money  , the others seems to live in dreamland and sometimes avoid tripping over their egos .

 Murdoch supports climate change , vaccines , Trump because that was where the most eyeballs are/were ( and money to be made )

 he turned solid publications into advertorials and infomercials 

 if you don't understand that you should sell your NWS  and FOX shares


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

60 million Americans will watch any channel that mentions Trump positively 3 times a day  the rest have to fight over the others who actually bother to turn on the TV  ( or can even afford to own one )


----------



## SirRumpole (22 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> It covers both sides, but those aware of their lack of knowledge on a particular subject should be self aware enough to defer to experts in the area. In relation to covid, these would be disease control organisations like the CDC or other health experts, not social influencers or the like and in particular not random articles found on social media from dubious sources.




And should be aware of vested interests trying to influence government decisions, the business community for example who put the pressure on Gladys not to go hard and early and let the virus get away.


----------



## bellenuit (22 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> And should be aware of vested interests trying to influence government decisions, the business community for example who put the pressure on Gladys not to go hard and early and let the virus get away.




Yes, I agree. One always needs to be skeptical and it is true that often official statements are influenced by special interests. But I suppose the best one can do is be aware of those special interests and make comparisons with the statements from other organisations or the same organisations in other countries that may not be subject to the same pressure from those same special interests. With COVID there is widespread agreement across diverse countries with different political systems as to what is the best course of action. Results from following those courses of actions have tended to produce the same positive results. One can never be 100% sure, but that would give me confidence that those courses of actions are correct.


----------



## bellenuit (22 August 2021)

More on Ivermectin...

The FDA Is Begging You Not to Take Horse Dewormer for Covid-19​








						The FDA Is Begging You Not to Take Horse Dewormer for Covid-19
					

“You are not a horse. You are not a cow,” the Food and Drug Administration said about using the drug that hosts on Fox News have been pushing




					www.rollingstone.com


----------



## over9k (22 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> ‘Customers may experience some delays’ amid spike in Australia Post volume




Yeah, I've been gaming this system: 

When buying stuff, I'm trying to avoid retailers located in locked down areas. Also go for express mail (meaning it gets airmailed) and thus leapfrogs the lockdowns completely.


----------



## over9k (22 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Stupidity and intelligence are not always the equivalent.
> There are some remarkably intelligent people who have said and done some very stupid things.
> Just a couple come to mind .
> Bill Clinton having an affair with  an intern then lying about it under oath.
> ...



Intellect and wisdom are not the same thing. 

"Smarts" and good decision making are not the same thing. 


There are many different types/ways of being smart (and dumb).


----------



## macca (22 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> More on Ivermectin...
> 
> The FDA Is Begging You Not to Take Horse Dewormer for Covid-19​
> 
> ...




And it is crap like that which encourages the conspiracy theory, Ivermectin won a Nobel prize

<<In 2015, the Nobel Committee for Physiology or Medicine, in its only award for treatments of infectious diseases since six decades prior, honored the discovery of ivermectin (IVM), a multifaceted drug deployed against some of the world’s most devastating tropical diseases.>>









						Ivermectin: a multifaceted drug of Nobel prize-honored distinction with indicated efficacy against a new global scourge, COVID-19
					

In 2015, the Nobel Committee for Physiology or Medicine, in its only award for treatments of infectious diseases since six decades prior, honored the …




					www.sciencedirect.com
				




I agree that it needs testing (Properly) for Covid But to belittle a drug which has saved thousands of lives in the real world shows just what the agenda has been since day one.

To repurpose a drug which is known to be safe is a Far more sensible thing to do than inject millions of people with something that has buggar all phase 3 testing


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

not to mention the FDA  has approved several substances  they have slapped a black label on years later 

and i don't just mean Thalidomide  , they have approved several clangers after that


----------



## moXJO (22 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> It covers both sides, but those aware of their lack of knowledge on a particular subject should be self aware enough to defer to experts in the area. In relation to covid, these would be disease control organisations like the CDC or other health experts, not social influencers or the like and in particular not random articles found on social media from dubious sources.



I agree to a point. But let's take joules video (not a personal attack on you either, I enjoy your posts).
First off the anti vaxxer was an idiot. However questioning the lipid nanoparticles is a valid concern.
The scientists dismissed the inflammation
 ( she was correct to do so, as it isn't how inflammation works) yet LNP does in fact cause inflammation. She basically reinforces the attitude of "everything is alright" when there is such a brief rebuttal. 

There's a huge amount of back and forth. Yet it's hard for anyone to give relevant information on safety of the mrna vaccine. It seems difficult to find at the least. All we get is bickering or sleight of hand.

I'm not against the technology either. It will change how we fight a lot of diseases. But it's very early stages and we seemed to just jab and accept. 




SirRumpole said:


> And should be aware of vested interests trying to influence government decisions, the business community for example who put the pressure on Gladys not to go hard and early and let the virus get away.



It's going to be interesting to see if nsw gets back to normal first. Surely nsw must be on a fast track to hit 70%. What happens to the other states then?

Nsw would still likely have huge amounts of infected so borders will remain. Other states that were complacent with vaccination will have to lockdown every time.


----------



## macca (22 August 2021)

I cannot help but think that the "powers that be" are not getting data from OS or they choose to ignore it. I also find it weird that although two doses cannot kill the virus let's try three !

Today our CMO said we should follow Israel's example.............. their current 7 day average is 21 deaths per day

<<Despite being the most vaccinated nation on the planet, Israel’s cases have begun to skyrocket again after travellers brought the Delta strain back home from overseas. The nation of 9.2 million, boasting a 78 per cent double vaccination rate, registered over 6,500 cases this week.>>









						World’s most vaccinated nation declares ‘triple dose is the solution’
					

It’s the magic number we keep hearing day in, day out as Australian politicians front the public to deliver us the latest on our grim predicament.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## bellenuit (22 August 2021)

macca said:


> I agree that it needs testing (Properly) for Covid But to belittle a drug which has saved thousands of lives in the real world shows just what the agenda has been since day one.




I think you have completely missed the point of the article. It is 100% correct  in saying that it is approved as a horse dewormer, but it is not (at least not yet) approved as a treatment for COVID-19. The fact that Fox is throwing doubt on approved vaccines, but suggesting this unapproved treatment is a disgrace and has the FDA worried because of the increased hospitalisations.

Do you think they should say nothing.

Ivermectin is not been belittled as a drug, it is just not approved for the treatment of COVID. Maybe soon and with appropriate dose levels determined following trials. But promoting in at this stage is plain wrong.

Ivermectin: why a potential COVID treatment isn’t recommended for use​
_Why isn’t it recommended?

While some other studies did appear to show benefits of ivermectin, many did not. These were summarised by the National Institutes of Health, showing severe limitations arising from small sample sizes and problems with study design.

Both the National Institutes of Health and the European Medicines Agency judged, on the basis of these studies, that there is currently insufficient evidence to support the use of ivermectin in treatment of COVID-19.

More studies are underway. A large, multicentre trial began in February to determine the effectiveness of ivermectin as well as metformin (an anti-diabetes medication) and fluvoxamine (an antidepressant) in preventing COVID-19 disease progression.

It would therefore be premature to conclude absolutely that ivermectin has no place in COVID-19 treatment. On the basis of current evidence, however, its use cannot be recommended._









						Ivermectin: why a potential COVID treatment isn’t recommended for use
					

The antiparasitic drug was thought to be a potential treatment for COVID-19, but there isn’t sufficient evidence to recommend its use, despite widespread support online.




					theconversation.com


----------



## bellenuit (22 August 2021)

macca said:


> I also find it weird that although two doses cannot kill the virus let's try three !




Why is that weird? The virus has mutated and the vaccines are not as effective against the current dominant strain, Delta.

Scientists are doing their best. Earlier last year there were many articles claiming there would never be a vaccine for COVID-19. They claimed such a vaccine was scientifically impossible. But they came out with several successful vaccines that have saved millions of lives. The fact that dosages may need fine tuning is neither here nor there.


----------



## macca (22 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Why is that weird? The virus has mutated and the vaccines are not as effective against the current dominant strain, Delta.
> 
> Scientists are doing their best. Earlier last year there were many articles claiming there would never be a vaccine for COVID-19. They claimed such a vaccine was scientifically impossible. But they came out with several successful vaccines that have saved millions of lives. The fact that dosages may need fine tuning is neither here nor there.




Virus mutate all the time so every 6 months or so, they intend to sell another round of vaccines which we repeatedly shoot into millions of people.

This is a novel treatment, we have absolutely no idea of the long term effects of mRNA "vaccine", to be repeatedly dosing people, particularly young females, with a novel treatment that Does effect their glands is crazy IMO


----------



## bellenuit (22 August 2021)

macca said:


> Virus mutate all the time so every 6 months or so, they intend to sell another round of vaccines which we repeatedly shoot into millions of people.




So you are saying that it is preferable that no booster shots are administered and accept the consequences of mass infection?

Yes there are side effects to vaccines, but I trust the experts to weigh up the probability of the side effects and the danger they pose against the probability and risk associated with infection. The CDC and national health authorities are not in the business of trying to deliberately endanger their citizens. The overwhelming consensus of experts in the field is that getting the virus is overwhelmingly more dangerous than being vaccinated. 

Are you aware of the many longterm dangers associated with contracting COVID-19, even if one subsequently recovers? This is just one example:

*Cognitive deficits in people who have recovered from COVID-19*





__





						DEFINE_ME
					





					www.thelancet.com


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Why is that weird? The virus has mutated and the vaccines are not as effective against the current dominant strain, Delta.
> 
> Scientists are doing their best. Earlier last year there were many articles claiming there would never be a vaccine for COVID-19. They claimed such a vaccine was scientifically impossible. But they came out with several successful vaccines that have saved millions of lives. The fact that dosages may need fine tuning is neither here nor there.



 so far dose Number three is identical to the first two  , dose number four MIGHT be different ( and YES at least two makers are working on dose four ) 

 there is still a hot debate over mixing manufacturers  either after dose one or dose two


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

AUSTRALIAN TOURISM AD IN 2021



 DYOR


 ( remember Sco-Mo rose to fame on the 'where the bloody hell are you ' campaign )


----------



## over9k (23 August 2021)

Another one I thought of the other day was for Tassie: 



"Tasmania: Two heads, zero virus".


----------



## divs4ever (23 August 2021)

New agriculture visa set to be introduced

https://thebull.com.au/new-agriculture-visa-set-to-be-introduced/

???

what sort clown-show is this


hiding under the doonas are we ??

 maybe we should occupy parliament house  and double the productivity while we are sleeping in


----------



## sptrawler (23 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> New agriculture visa set to be introduced
> 
> https://thebull.com.au/new-agriculture-visa-set-to-be-introduced/
> 
> ...



It would appear Aussies would rather be unemployed in the Cities, than move to the country towns, I guess that means we have to import regional workers. Really weird situation.
With the virus, I guess giving them permanent residency after a qualifying period, saves the issue of bringing in new workers when visas expire, which could bring new virus variants.
The Greens and Labor will be happy, as migrant workers tend to vote Labor anyway and the Greens will support the humanitarian aspect.
Win/Win country Australia gets workers, Aussie's get to stay in the cities, until they can't afford it.


----------



## rederob (23 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It would appear Aussies would rather be unemployed in the Cities, than move to the country towns, I guess that means we have to import regional workers. Really weird situation.
> With the virus, I guess giving them permanent residency after a qualifying period, saves the issue of bringing in new workers when visas expire, which could bring new virus variants.
> The Greens and Labor will be happy, as migrant workers tend to vote Labor anyway and the Greens will support the humanitarian aspect.
> Win/Win country Australia gets workers, Aussie's get to stay in the cities, until they can't afford it.



Overseas farm workers are the most exploited people in Australia - that's why most Aussies avoid the sector.
If our government had a brain they would integrate refugee resettlement into the scheme as these are displaced people who actually need a country to accept them.


----------



## basilio (23 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Overseas farm workers are the most exploited people in Australia - that's why most Aussies avoid the sector.
> If our government had a brain they would integrate refugee resettlement into the scheme as these are displaced people who actually need a country to accept them.




There are a number of  outstanding success stories around settling refugees in country tows. Nhill has had an amazing renaissance  since 200 Karen refugees  boosted their local industry.









						Refugee settlement at Nhill – ten years on
					

It’s close to sundown and the birdsong reaches an end-of-day crescendo as a small group of people carrying hoes and rakes drift among the...



					amesnews.com.au
				







__





						Loading...
					





					www.theaustralian.com.au
				







__





						Loading...
					





					www.tandfonline.com


----------



## wayneL (23 August 2021)

This is how dodgy the narrative is, pure project fear. Unless the government has you so terrified, and your limbic system has taken over completely, we should all know by now that there is a very slim chance of becoming hospitalized with the beer-wog, and an even slimmer chance of dying.

This statement front Mao Tse Dan this not only complete bulshit, it shows how the Australian public is being gaslit by these @ssholes.

Our politicians should give us truth, facts, data... Not some completely fabricated binary crap that if you take a step outside your front door that you will end up in hospital.

Am I view this is criminal and any such politician indulging in this sort of fear mongering should be removed forthwith, by whatever means is necessary.


----------



## The Triangle (23 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> This is how dodgy the narrative is, pure project fear. Unless the government has you so terrified, and your limbic system has taken over completely, we should all know by now that there is a very slim chance of becoming hospitalized with the beer-wog, and an even slimmer chance of dying.
> 
> This statement front Mao Tse Dan this not only complete bulshit, it shows how the Australian public is being gaslit by these @ssholes.
> 
> ...




Hmm.  And people wonder why we don't trust the media and governments anymore?  Remember folks trust the science, unless you are a politician, then trust who's giving your political party donations.   Never trust a politician.


----------



## sptrawler (23 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Overseas farm workers are the most exploited people in Australia - that's why most Aussies avoid the sector.
> If our government had a brain they would integrate refugee resettlement into the scheme as these are displaced people who actually need a country to accept them.



I'm quite sure, the very same refugees and migrant workers, that move into these country towns, will in 20 years time be renting their investment home in Sydney, to the same unemployed who refuse to go bush currently.
Win/Win really.
As Bas posted there are plenty of stories of post Vietnam refugees who came to Australia, settled in country towns and did extremely well, there aren't many long term unemployed who have become financially independent. But that is their right, I have a close relative, who would rather be in the City in dos house, than go bush for a job.
Luckily he is empowered to do so and fortunately there are plenty of less fortunate overseas workers, that will jump at the opportunity.
Like I said Win/Win, hopefully they keep the scheme going post covid, country towns are always looking to increase their size and many are dying.


----------



## Joules MM1 (23 August 2021)

Prof. Peter Doherty

@ProfPCDoherty
·
12h

Time-lapse video of cultured bat brain cells that start out looking pretty normal. Then infection with SARS-CoV-2 causes them to fuse with other cells, scrunch-up, die & burst open. Do you really want that happening in cells in your blood vessel walls, heart etc. Get the vaccine.


----------



## moXJO (24 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> View attachment 129351
> 
> Prof. Peter Doherty
> @ProfPCDoherty
> ...




Now do beer


----------



## moXJO (24 August 2021)

Interesting stat
Total covid cases overall in:
NSW 18800
VIC 21526

Total Deaths:
NSW 128
VIC 820

Given that nsw has primarily delta, probably safe to assume that delta is not the threat the original covid was.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

Vaccine hesitancy, is obviously still a major concern.








						Victorians urged to fill thousands of available vaccine appointments
					

Premier Daniel Andrews says people should book in to get the jab as soon as possible as the state grapples to pull its worsening Delta outbreak under control. Out of 71 new local cases, only 16 were quarantined while infectious.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Key points:​
The Premier said around 10,000 people were abandoning appointments each day
He has urged everyone to head to the appointments and support the state in "vaccinating our way out of this"
Epidemiologist Tony Blakely has suggested an extended "soft lockdown" as an option if the current restrictions fail to pull up the outbreak


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Interesting stat
> Total covid cases overall in:
> NSW 18800
> VIC 21526
> ...



I guess you would have to work out the ratio, pre Delta and post Delta.


----------



## mullokintyre (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Vaccine hesitancy, is obviously still a major concern.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And yet he still Blames the Feds for not providing enough vaccines.
is it any wonder there is confusion and distrust.
There has been much publicity about the modelling from the Doherty Institute that suggests the there will never be covid elimination, 
and states should start opening up once we reach 70% vax rate , and mostly open once we reach 80%.
But almost as soon as that comes out, the a bunch of different experts say it will cause up to 25,000 deaths.
From Todays Australian


> Australia faces more than 25,000 Covid-19 deaths and hundreds of thousands of long coronavirus cases if Scott Morrison sticks with his plan to open the nation with an 80 per cent vaccination rate, a cross-university group of academics claims.
> In a study for the Australian National University, a group of economists and medical researchers say the Doherty Institute’s thresholds for reopening Australia are too low and the nation should not loosen restrictions until 90 per cent of Australia’s entire population – including children – has had two shots.
> 
> Even then, the academics – from ANU, the University of Melbourne and the University of Western Australia – say Australians will need a third booster shot, especially if they received Vaxzevria (previously AstraZeneca), and 95 per cent of vulnerable groups and people over 60 are fully vaccinated.



Why you would include a bunch of economists in a study on a medical issue is completely beyond me.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And yet he still Blames the Feds for not providing enough vaccines.
> is it any wonder there is confusion and distrust.
> There has been much publicity about the modelling from the Doherty Institute that suggests the there will never be covid elimination,
> and states should start opening up once we reach 70% vax rate , and mostly open once we reach 80%.
> ...



Ask @rederob he knows, apparently it is fact, because the economists used data. 🤣
It just doesn't matter a crap, what data, apparently.
We have been discussing this very issue, in the corona vaccine news thread, it should be a good laugh if you are bored.
Starts at post# 979 page 49.


----------



## IFocus (24 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Interesting stat
> Total covid cases overall in:
> NSW 18800
> VIC 21526
> ...





In Vic it got into the age care facilities everyone still unvaccinated and its where most of the deaths occurred if I remember correctly, they didn't move all cases to hospital either just let them die in the age care home.

I think the NSW death rate is reflective of vaccination rates  in the elderly and possibly better treatment for hospital cases. Expect the current death rate in Vic  to be similar to NSW.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> In Vic it got into the age care facilities everyone still unvaccinated and its where most of the deaths occurred if I remember correctly, they didn't move all cases to hospital either just let them die in the age care home.
> 
> I think the NSW death rate is reflective of vaccination rates  in the elderly and possibly better treatment for hospital cases. Expect the current death rate in Vic  to be similar to NSW.



Yes it is terrible, also apparently there are still a lot of Victorian aged care workers who have not had the vaccination, it will be interesting when it becomes mandatory in September.
It is a pretty selfish attitude IMO.








						Aged care worker Jude is fully vaccinated — but she estimates a fifth of her colleagues are choosing not to get the jab
					

Unions and some aged care workers welcome the introduction of mandatory vaccines for all residential staff, but acknowledge it may drive some "very low paid" workers from the industry.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (24 August 2021)

Think this issue will have to be settled in the high court.
There are so many competing interests.
And even among the Unions there is no agreement. In the ABC article above, it quotes the United Workers Union as supporting the mandatory  vaccination to work in the industry.
However, when SPC decided on the no Jab no Job policy, the AMWU were very much against it.
If there is  something in the BA, or under state or federal laws that mandate vaccinations, as in the aged care workers requiring a flu vax, there is no0t a lot of room  to argue against. 
Not that it will stop some from arguing.
I guess the ultimate answer is  you don['t have to accept the work.
There is also the duty of care that  employers have towards not only the employees, but the general public.
Will be an interesting outcome.
Mick


----------



## macca (24 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> In Vic it got into the age care facilities everyone still unvaccinated and its where most of the deaths occurred if I remember correctly, they didn't move all cases to hospital either just let them die in the age care home.
> 
> I think the NSW death rate is reflective of vaccination rates  in the elderly and possibly better treatment for hospital cases. Expect the current death rate in Vic  to be similar to NSW.



I recall some media reports at the time accusing Victoria of not learning from NSW mistakes.

Most of the early deaths in NSW were in old folks/nursing homes and it was decided that we stuffed up and in future old sick people should be treated in hospital if possible.

Victoria did not "cop the tip" and repeated what NSW did with same resulting high death rate in the homes.

Frail people with existing ills are always in danger of any new bug, even a different flu bug can knock them over.

In the USA some homes give them all Vitamin D every day which seems to make a notable difference, not much sun in the winter there or in Europe.

Bad scene, low Vitamin D and Any upper URT infection


----------



## moXJO (24 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> In Vic it got into the age care facilities everyone still unvaccinated and its where most of the deaths occurred if I remember correctly, they didn't move all cases to hospital either just let them die in the age care home.
> 
> I think the NSW death rate is reflective of vaccination rates  in the elderly and possibly better treatment for hospital cases. Expect the current death rate in Vic  to be similar to NSW.



Not only that but original covid was more lethal. Delta is more easily spread but not as lethal. My wife is in aged care and not a lot changed.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Think this issue will have to be settled in the high court.
> There are so many competing interests.
> And even among the Unions there is no agreement. In the ABC article above, it quotes the United Workers Union as supporting the mandatory  vaccination to work in the industry.
> However, when SPC decided on the no Jab no Job policy, the AMWU were very much against it.
> ...



A lot of the issues like this should be tested in court, for the benefit of all concerned. I don't think employers should have carte blanche to force employees to do something that isn't absolutely necessary, it should be voluntary. But when it is deemed necessary by one party and not the other, the arguments for and against should be presented to an umpire.


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

Masks may need to be worn 'for years' to combat COVID, NSW CHO warns
					

NSW's chief health officer Kerry Chant says hitting the 80 per cent vaccination threshold gives "options and choices" but face masks will likely still be required and high risk venues will be limited to those who are vaccinated.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## explod (24 August 2021)

Ahh well, they have opened the streets of London,  the Quean's Guards marching in front of the Palace and crowds with no masks happily cheering.

Over 60 dead in the Herald Sun today with none from Covid.

World's ......d., party away.


----------



## explod (24 August 2021)

Apologies, just noted most in England have had their jabs.

Get my second Saturday


----------



## wayneL (24 August 2021)

I've said it before, and though at times I have questioned my life choices, it is so awesome to be self employed and it extremely unlikely that I would ever be asked my vaccination status.

Make any fuss and you're sacked... and good luck finding somebody to replace me.

And I can still trade for a living anyway. As you all know I've done it before successfully... and to be honest I'm getting a bit f****** tired of neurotic horse people anyway.

We actually have over a years emergency supply of food and have done so for several years.... And watch out I can make a useable sword from a piece of rebar or a knife from an old chain saw chain or rasp.

... And I've got an idea of making a pair of nunchaku with a couple of equine metacarpals I've got buried in the garden.

We might be f***** @explod, but Mrs and I aren't going out quietly.


----------



## basilio (25 August 2021)

So the TGA has to come out and say
*"Please don't use  dangerous, unproven animal medication ( Invermectin) to treat COVID"*

Apparently  10's of thousand of sheeple inspired by master sheepherder Craig Kelly are dosing up.

I suppose one could say " Why not ? What could go wrong with such a proactive  approach to one's own health ? "

_What is happening overseas?_​_In the United States, health authorities have been forced to warn people against using doses of the drug meant for animals, noting that some animal worming products were in short supply because people were buying them as COVID-19 treatments._

*The problem has become so bad in some states that local health authorities have noted dramatic increases in poisoning.

The Health Department of the US State of Mississippi said 70 per cent of the calls it received about poisoning were related to people taking Ivermectin.*









						Anti-parasitic drug should not be used to treat COVID-19, TGA warns
					

The nation's pharmaceutical regulator is warning people against using Ivermectin for COVID-19 after a rise in importation of the anti-parasitic medication.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Here's a strange take on using and abusing science and data, including playing with dates and countbacks:




lol @ "rebunk"
nice find


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 August 2021)

Prof. Peter Doherty

@ProfPCDoherty
·
15h

For those who have vague fears about possible, unidentified, long term effects of the COVID vaccines, worry much more about the already identified & maybe unidentified (autoimmunity) effects of catching COVID for both kids and adults. The only protection we have is the vaccine.

=======================

Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
In the COVID-19 modelling, opening up at 70%
vaccine coverage of the adult population with partial
public health measures, we predict 385,983 symptomatic
cases and 1,457 deaths over six months.
Show this thread
Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
With optimal public health measures (and no lockdowns),
this can be significantly reduced to 2,737 infections
and 13 deaths.

We’ve learned from watching countries that have removed
all restrictions that there is no ‘freedom day’.
Show this thread
Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
We will need to keep some public health measures in
place – test, trace, isolate and quarantine – to keep the
reproduction number below 1, but as vaccination rates increase,
we’ll be able to ease up further and it is unlikely that
we will need generalised lockdowns.
Show this thread
Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
Once we reach 70% vaccine coverage, opening up at tens or
hundreds of cases nationally per day is possible, however,
we will need vigilant public health interventions with higher case loads.
Show this thread
Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
It might seem that these ‘test, trace, isolate and quarantine’
measures aren’t currently working – in New South Wales or Victoria.
But they are. They are stopping transmissions and reducing the
effective reproduction rate from 5 to closer to 1.3 in New South Wales.
Show this thread
Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
These measures will become more effective with more people
vaccinated as vaccines also contribute to stopping transmission.
Show this thread
Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
We are moving towards these targets at a rapid pace, but we need to
keep supressing COVID-19 through public health measures while we work
towards 70%-80% vaccination across the country.
Show this thread
Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
This will ensure we continue to keep the level of hospitalisations
and deaths as low as possible to protect the community and prevent
our healthcare system from becoming overrun.
Show this thread
Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
The team of modellers from across Australia led by the Doherty
Institute is now working through the implementation issues specific
to the states and territories, specific populations and high risk settings.
Show this thread
Doherty Institute
@TheDohertyInst
·
Aug 23
We are moving towards better control of COVID-19 and a more stable future.
We encourage everyone to stay vigilant, get vaccinated if you are eligible
and take care of each other as we transition to living with COVID-19.

https://doherty.edu.au/news-events/news/statement-on-the-doherty-institute-modelling


----------



## basilio (26 August 2021)

Another sobering set of future COVID 19 scenarios from top viralogist Eddie Holmes at Sydney university.
COVID might evolve into a more benign virus AKA common cold.
But the more likely events are continuing evolution to more viralent and contagious varations ie Delta.

And his final observation is critical.

_Professor Holmes said vaccinating the population was crucial, but a global approach to vaccination was also urgent.
He said Australia should share resources with countries that don't have vaccine access, such as many African nations.
The latest data shows 33.3 million people, or 2 per cent of people in African countries, had been fully vaccinated.
That is compared with 242 million people, or 40.9 per cent of those who reside in North America._



> _"That's morally reprehensible and it's also scientifically incorrect," he said._



_"Those places where there's uncontrolled virus spread, the virus will generate more diversity ... that could trigger the evolution of viruses worse than you've got today."_









						A leading virologist outlines the best, worst and likely scenarios for COVID in the years ahead
					

Virologist Eddie Holmes was among the first scientists to unravel COVID-19's secrets. Here are three scenarios he predicts may play out in the long term.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (26 August 2021)

Just in case anyone on ASF was wondering, you can catch COVID from somebody's farts.
From Todays OZ


> It’s the question you didn’t know you needed answered: can you catch Covid-19 from farts? The ABC’s omniscient *Norman Swan* told listeners to his Coronacast podcast that yes, you probably can. Hence why the government is testing our waste water for fragments of the virus shed in faeces. Swan warned flatulent Quiet Australians to avoid passing wind “close” to other folk, adding it was important “that you don’t fart with your bottom bare”. Solid advice, pandemic or no.



More vitally important stuff from our media.
Mick


----------



## macca (26 August 2021)

Published by a GP in the SMH today, about the hidden deaths being caused by lockdowns. 
I guess these will continue to happen as folk who presented too late to be helped, pass away over the next year

<<A friend of mine is an emergency department specialist. During lockdowns he has seen people die from late presentations. He has seen more people die than he has ever seen before. Patients think it is dangerous to leave their own house, so those with chest pain stay at home and when they finally call an ambulance, a treatable heart attack has become fatal. Patients with strokes are too scared to go hospital and miss out on acute treatment that would have limited the damage to their brain. Patients with bacterial infections that would be simple to treat with prompt intravenous antibiotics wait at home and become septic and die.>>









						Lockdowns don’t just save lives, they cost lives too
					

One of my patients put off making his appointment with a specialist because he feared going near a hospital during lockdown. By the time his cancer was diagnosed, it was too late.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

As I have said on a few occasions, W.A is booming due to the virus, no outbreaks, everyone holidaying in the State, the mining industry out the bush going gang busters, the building industry going gang busters, why would McGowan want to risk an outbreak and the bubble bursting?
I'm sure Scomo would like the spending spread around, but I can't see McGowan handing it over. 
Well not until it is absolutely necessary, which will be when the W.A public feel they are missing out, ATM they are happy as hell with Fortress W.A.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/wes...-life-inside-fortress-wa-20210824-p58lje.html


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

Interesting to see Queensland has stuck with the quarantine center being built out bush, rather than at the military base close to Brisbane.
Might be interesting to see who benefits in a couple of years?


----------



## rederob (26 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting to see Queensland has stuck with the quarantine center being built out bush, rather than at the military base close to Brisbane.
> Might be interesting to see who benefits in a couple of years?



The feds have not done anything to progress the  Pinkenba project, which remains on the table.
In the absence of action from the feds QLD's Premier gave Toowoomba's Wellcamp  facility the go ahead as it expects to open in stages from end-2021 - *not *a couple years as you suggest.


----------



## wayneL (26 August 2021)

Je suis français


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

rederob said:


> The feds have not done anything to progress the  Pinkenba project, which remains on the table.
> In the absence of action from the feds QLD's Premier gave Toowoomba's Wellcamp  facility the go ahead as it expects to open in stages from end-2021 - *not *a couple years as you suggest.



Here we go again, I wasnt suggesting  it would take a couple of years to build, only it will take a couple of years to expose the motivation.


----------



## rederob (26 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Here we go again, I wasnt suggesting  it would take a couple of years to build, only it will take a couple of years to expose the motivation.



The benefit is less than 4 months away.
As to motivation, the feds knocked back this proposal time and again from January.  You can spin it however you like but show where the feds have been proactive on international quarantine responsibilities which are THEIRS and not the States.
Morrison continues to wage war with the States and that's why we are so far behind where we could have been.


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

Why would you build a quarantine facility in the middle of nowhere, with no acute care facilities and no airport with the ability to accept international flights? Pork barreling, or buying land from donors comes to mind and I dont even live there.lol
So I dont have any skin in the game, but it does smell from afar and I may be completely wrong.
Time will tell, as it always does.
The feds want the quarantine facilies built near hospital facilities that can cope and close to airports that can accept international arrivals and preferably on federal land which they already own as they are paying for it ( well the taxpayer is).
What Queensland is doing, is like W.A building a facility in Kalgoorlie, but hey your hate for Scomo, yet again overides your common sense.
You're a bit like Sir Humphries, a million reasons to justify a poor outcome. Lol

So why would you build it out in the bush? is the land they are going to build it on State Government land?, Does the town have mass critical care capability? Is there direct access to state of the art medical care?  Does the State Government take responsibility for the outcome 🤣


----------



## mullokintyre (26 August 2021)

rederob said:


> The feds have not done anything to progress the  Pinkenba project, which remains on the table.
> In the absence of action from the feds QLD's Premier gave Toowoomba's Wellcamp  facility the go ahead as it expects to open in stages from end-2021 - *not *a couple years as you suggest.



The link you made to Pinkemba contains nothing about Pinkemba at all. It is the statement about building Wellcamp.
Did you mean this Qld Govt Statement by any chance?
It was dated about twelve days ago,  and inter alia says


> “That means the Australian Government can get started building it, and once constructed, the Queensland Government will provide services to the facility.



Are you suggesting that they should have done something in the ensuing 12 days?
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

@rederob , I knight you by default the honourable Sir Humphrey Appleby, as you are the cloning of him IMO.








						Humphrey Appleby - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## rederob (26 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The link you made to Pinkemba contains nothing about Pinkemba at all.



Please read the relevant part of my link which confirmed the point made.


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

Or you could take the short answer @mullokintyre .

_ Well Minister, if you ask me for a straight answer, then I shall say that, as far as we can see, looking at it by and large, taking one thing with another in terms of the average of departments, then in the final analysis it is probably true to say, that at the end of the day, in general terms, you would probably find that, not to put too fine a point on it, there probably wasn't very much in it one way or the other. As far as one can see, at this stage.  🤣

Sir Humphrey Appleby_


----------



## mullokintyre (26 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Please read the relevant part of my link which confirmed the point made.



What was your point?  And what is relevant?
You said that the feds had done nothing about Pinkemba, and put in a link that had nothing to do with Pinkemba.
End of story
Mick


----------



## rederob (26 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Why would you build a quarantine facility in the middle of nowhere, with no acute care facilities and no airport with the ability to accept international flights?



Wellcamp is an international standard airport and Toowoomba is a decent size city with twice the population of Bunbury.  It's about as close to Brisbane as both Sunshine and Gold Coast quarantine hotels, except once built transfers will take minutes rather than hours.  


sptrawler said:


> So I dont have any skin in the game, but it does smell from afar and I may be completely wrong.



Yes, you are completely wrong as these facilities could have been in place right now had the feds had a clue about quarantine arrangements and stopped playing a blame game.


sptrawler said:


> Time will tell, as it always does.



You just don't get it - the *feds should have done this in 2020* rather than fight with States, so time ran out ages ago.


sptrawler said:


> The feds want the quarantine facilies built near hospital facilities that can cope and close to airports that can accept international arrivals and preferably on federal land which they already own as they are paying for it ( well the taxpayer is).



Prove the feds are actively pursuing this strategy as I have not seen any plans.  


sptrawler said:


> What Queensland is doing, is like W.A building a facility in Kalgoorlie.



You should learn what facilities are available at Toowoomba before making silly comparisons.
First, *every *_*positive*_ international arrival in Qld is already taken to a hospital facility regardless of being symptomatic.
Second, Toowoomba's hospital - which already has acute care capability - is being upgraded as part of the State's recently announced $1.1 billion commitment to the Darling Downs and South West Hospital and Health Services.


sptrawler said:


> but hey your hate for Scomo, yet again overides your common sense.



What Scomo does speaks for itself - too little too late.  He's a policy void with a record of incompetence that has lead to hundreds of deaths in aged care, and avoidable lockdowns had he accepted responsibility for international quarantine arrangements from the outset.


----------



## rederob (26 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> What was your point?  And what is relevant?
> You said that the feds had done nothing about Pinkemba, and put in a link that had nothing to do with Pinkemba.
> End of story
> Mick



From the link:
*“The Queensland Government will continue to work collaboratively to progress the Commonwealth’s Pinkenba facility, but we need more options to get returning Australians home safer.”*​Would you like me to explain the point as well?


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Wellcamp is an international standard airport and Toowoomba is a decent size city with twice the population of Bunbury.  It's about as close to Brisbane as both Sunshine and Gold Coast quarantine hotels, except once built transfers will take minutes rather than hours.



But those who need acute care would have to be transferred, it doesn't make sense having it remote from the acute care



rederob said:


> Yes, you are completely wrong as these facilities could have been in place right now had the feds had a clue about quarantine arrangements and stopped playing a blame game.



These facilities haven't been required, as we haven't had the issue, the Feds and the States have been playing Games, in W.A the State Government wanted the facility built in Busselton, it is now going to be built at Pearce air base, makes much more sense.
Unless someone in the State Government could make something out of the Busselton plan. Obviously you are familiar with the justification process, being ex Federal government.



rederob said:


> You just don't get it - the *feds should have done this in 2020* rather than fight with States, so time ran out ages ago.



I think the Feds had enough on their plate in 2020, funding a bottomless pit of State government shutdowns, guess it depends on how you look at it.



rederob said:


> Prove the feds are actively pursuing this strategy as I have not seen any plans.



Obviously the State plans are that far advanced, they can't pull out, yet wanted the Feds to pay for it. Like I said it will be interesting when the real winners come out in a couple of years IMO.



rederob said:


> You should learn what facilities are available at Toowoomba before making silly comparisons.
> First, *every *_*positive*_ international arrival in Qld is already taken to a hospital facility regardless of being symptomatic.
> Second, Toowoomba's hospital - which already has acute care capability - is being upgraded as part of the State's recently announced $1.1 billion commitment to the Darling Downs and South West Hospital and Health Services.



You should learn that you can't ask for the Australian public taxpayer, to pay for a State brain fart, that they want the Feds, which is us taxpayers, to pay for.



rederob said:


> What Scomo does speaks for itself - too little too late.  He's a policy void with a record of incompetence that has lead to hundreds of deaths in aged care, and avoidable lockdowns had he accepted responsibility for international quarantine arrangements from the outset.



What W.A and Queensland are doing, is kill the pig with royalties by keeping mining open and keeping all the spending inside the State, which is a great play, but blaming the Feds for piss poor decisions like the Toowoomba one will backfire because it smells of shonky deals IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

rederob said:


> From the link:
> *“The Queensland Government will continue to work collaboratively to progress the Commonwealth’s Pinkenba facility, but we need more options to get returning Australians home safer.”*​Would you like me to explain the point as well?



Again, it smells like someone, is buying something from someone.  Or someone has something to gain, by the Toowoomba option.  
If the Pinkenba facility is still going ahead, the Toowoomba one is a white elephant, or someone has something to gain, or someone has already gained it. Well that's how it sounds.


----------



## rederob (26 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> But those who need acute care would have to be transferred, it doesn't make sense having it remote from the acute care



It already exists in Toowoomba.  You don't jump off a plane and need acute care anyway: everyone arriving had to show a negative result prior to boarding, so anyone infected would always be picked up in very early stages and, as I said, may be asymptomatic.


sptrawler said:


> I think the Feds had enough on their plate in 2020, funding a bottomless pit of State government shutdowns, guess it depends on how you look at it.



This is 2021 - their performance has been equally inept.


sptrawler said:


> You should learn that you can't ask for the Australian public taxpayer, to pay for a State brain fart, that they want the Feds, which is us taxpayers, to pay for.



The cost has been a result of federal ineptitude and avoidance of their Constitutional responsibility.


sptrawler said:


> but blaming the Feds for piss poor decisions like the Toowoomba one will backfire because it smells of shonky deals IMO.



What part about the feds still not having done anything in any State to date don't you understand?
Queensland has reduced its intake of arrivals as it has reduced local hotel quarantine capacity.  Wellcamp will get more Australians back home sooner and integrated more safely.


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

rederob said:


> It already exists in Toowoomba.  You don't jump off a plane and need acute care anyway: everyone arriving had to show a negative result prior to boarding, so anyone infected would always be picked up in very early stages and, as I said, may be asymptomatic.



The State Government wanted the Feds to fund it, with taxpayers money, not State money, the Feds said we will but we will put it on Federal Government land close to Brisbane, which you say is still proceeding.
So the Toowoomba one sounds like the State has already done a deal, with someone, which it has to honour and no doubt will come under scrutiny. So as I said time will tell.



rederob said:


> This is 2021 - their performance has been equally inept.



Well it would be completely out of character, for you not to criticise the Feds, so that is becoming white noise.



rederob said:


> The cost has been a result of federal ineptitude and avoidance of their Constitutional responsibility.




As above.


rederob said:


> What part about the feds still not having done anything in any State to date don't you understand?
> Queensland has reduced its intake of arrivals as it has reduced local hotel quarantine capacity.  Wellcamp will get more Australians back home sooner and integrated more safely.




Or to put it as your mentor Sir Humphries would, and how you are trying to paint it, to discredit the Feds idea.

“Civil servants have an extraordinary genius for wrapping up a simple idea to make it sound extremely complicated.” 🤣


----------



## mullokintyre (26 August 2021)

To


rederob said:


> It already exists in Toowoomba.  You don't jump off a plane and need acute care anyway: everyone arriving had to show a negative result prior to boarding, so anyone infected would always be picked up in very early stages and, as I said, may be asymptomatic.
> 
> This is 2021 - their performance has been equally inept.
> 
> ...



In your haste to blame the feds for everything you seem to have overlooked the fact that the States demanded that each state be responsible for Quarantine from the beginning. The feds should never had agreed to it, but they did. Just look at the complete screw up that Victoria did in its Quarantine.  
The ueensland state government only signed the NOU for Pinkemba 12 days ago.
Whose dragging their feet now?
The Feds were stupid to think that the states would do the cooperative thing and try to work with each other to get the best outcomesnduring this pandemic.
The biggest lie has been the bull**** statement "we are all in this together".
No chance, the states sniping at each other, sniping at the feds, the feds sniping at the states.
Everything about Phis Queensland foray into  Wellcamp reeks of Politics.
All parties are to blame, the Feds, the States, the health bureacrats and the media that have feasted off the whole mess.
Blame game.
 Just what we need.
And its reflected right here in this forum.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> To
> 
> In your haste to blame the feds for everything you seem to have overlooked the fact that the States demanded that each state be responsible for Quarantine from the beginning. The feds should never had agreed to it, but they did. Just look at the complete screw up that Victoria did in its Quarantine.
> The ueensland state government only signed the NOU for Pinkemba 12 days ago.
> ...



OMG don't bust Sir Humphries bubble, he is likely to have a seizure, everything bad that is happening in the World is Scomo's fault, damn Scomo. Bushfires, global warming, vaccine hesitancy, calling for people to have AZ if it's available( oh that's ok now) it goes on and on, the white noise is deafening.   🤣  🤣  🤣


----------



## rederob (26 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The State Government wanted the Feds to fund it, with taxpayers money, not State money, the Feds said we will but we will put it on Federal Government land close to Brisbane, which you say is still proceeding.



You won't accept that international quarantine arrangements have always been a federal responsibility.  Morrison is the only PM to shirk this role and cost hundreds of lives as a result.


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

rederob said:


> You won't accept that international quarantine arrangements have always been a federal responsibility.  Morrison is the only PM to shirk this role and cost hundreds of lives as a result.



You wont accept it, you're the one who is saying that the Queensland Government was building the wellcamp facility, because the Feds weren't building one, then in the next post you said Pinkenba was actually proceeding.
Sir Humphrey, you are allowing your bile to override your normally astute common sense. Your tripping over your own BS.


----------



## IFocus (26 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> To
> 
> In your haste to blame the feds for everything you seem to have overlooked the fact that the States demanded that each state be responsible for Quarantine from the beginning.





Nope Morrison dumped it on the states McGowan wanted nothing to do with it and repeated that numerus times.

Robs right SP not so much... sorry SP


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Nope Morrison dumped it on the states McGowan wanted nothing to do with it and repeated that numerus times.
> 
> Robs right SP not so much... sorry SP



That's o.k, I'm having fun. By the way thanks for jumping in to save his ar$e, good to see his fan club, punching above its weight. 🤣

By the way @IFocus , you are wrong, not @mullokintyre, so the smug reply is misplaced. 









						Why are the states and territories, and not the Commonwealth, running hotel quarantine?
					

The states and territories agreed to run hotel quarantine as part of their broader responsibility for public health, despite it being a federal role under the constitution. Why?




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
A deal was struck between Prime Minister Scott Morrison and state and territory leaders.

_The states and territories agreed to run hotel quarantine as part of their broader responsibility for public health, despite it being a federal role under the constitution.

The states also agreed to fund most of it.

You might find that surprising given the usual fights over money. But the states give a number of reasons why they were happy with this arrangement._

Now back on subject after that brief interlude:

McGowan wanted the Feds to build the quarantine facility at Busselton, makes sense a lot of Federal Government stimulus into the Busselton area and a free upgrade to the airport. it is being built at Pearse air base, makes sense.

IMO no doubt the Queensland government thought the same for Toowoomba, obviously they went further down the track of securing it, so it will be interesting if the media follow it up.
*Who is the Wagner Corporation? They apparently own the Toowoomba airport OMG.*

Maybe Scomo should have stumped up taxpayers money for it, then Sir Humphries could blame him for that. 🤣

Just imagine it, Why did the Scomo pay taxpayers money, to the Wagner group to buy land in the middle of nowhere, when they had crown land near Brisbane airport.

Sorry iFocus, Rob sounds like a dick, he doesn't really need your help. 
If it isn't cash for carparks, it's cash for for airports, apparently one is bad, the other is good.. 🤣









						'It's a no-brainer': Queensland goes it alone to build regional quarantine hub
					

Queensland is building a regional COVID-19 quarantine facility near the Wellcamp Airport, west of Brisbane, despite the federal government repeatedly rejecting the proposal.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
The Queensland government is pushing ahead with its own regional dedicated COVID-19 quarantine facility.

*Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk announced today that Cabinet has approved the project on vacant land owned by Wagner Corporation,* just outside Toowoomba, west of Brisbane.
Construction started at the site near Wellcamp Airport today, with 500 beds to be available by the end of the year and a total capacity of 1,000 by March next year.

Construction firm Wagners first submitted the plan to use its Wellcamp Airport as the landing point for some of the Australians stranded overseas in January.

*The financial arrangement between the state government and the Wagner family will be commercial-in-confidence,*


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Nope Morrison dumped it on the states McGowan wanted nothing to do with it and repeated that numerus times.
> 
> Robs right SP not so much... sorry SP



See IFocus this is the problem with believing everything you hear, rather than doing your own research, Rob talks up a storm and is beautifully eloquent and persuasive in his argument.
But it doesn't mean he doesn't talk a lot of $hit, because he does, just because he says it in a way that impresses you doesn't mean you have to swallow it hook line and sinker.
So now, what did you base your statement on quote: "Nope Morrison dumped it on the states"  "Robs right SP not so much... sorry SP"

I think your belief is misplaced, as I posted an ABC article on that very subject re posted below, so am I due an apology? 🤣
Robs wrong, Ifocus is wrong,  SP not so wrong....Sorry IFocus 









						Why are the states and territories, and not the Commonwealth, running hotel quarantine?
					

The states and territories agreed to run hotel quarantine as part of their broader responsibility for public health, despite it being a federal role under the constitution. Why?




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## IFocus (26 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> See IFocus this is the problem with believing everything you hear, rather than doing your own research, Rob talks up a storm and is beautifully eloquent and persuasive in his argument.
> But it doesn't mean he doesn't talk a lot of $hit, because he does, just because he says it in a way that impresses you doesn't mean you have to swallow it hook line and sinker.
> So now, what did you base your statement on quote: "Nope Morrison dumped it on the states"  "Robs right SP not so much... sorry SP"
> 
> ...





Thought that would get a bite, McGowan has said ad nauseam quarantine was a federal responsibility but they didn't want to do it and he was stuck with it.

Lets face it as the article you reference it makes clear Morrison would have stuffed it up any way.


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Thought that would get a bite, McGowan has said ad nauseam quarantine was a federal responsibility but they didn't want to do it and he was stuck with it.
> 
> Lets face it as the article you reference it makes clear Morrison would have stuffed it up any way.



Very possibly, but what you said was bull$hit, pure and simple.
 Morrison wasn't responsible for the quarantine, the States were, even though Rob says different, that is pure BS that Rob throws up endlessly.🤣

Morrison has got a crap group of ministers IMO, he like Barnett is a one man band, which makes it really difficult IMO.
To just lay all the blame at his feet is just political nonsense, IMO it is time for a change of Government, they are burnt out.

But as I've also said the media will lose the election for Labor, if they constantly keep on this Morrison is the blame for everything, as I just showed you, people aren't stupid and eventually they block out the trash talk and white noise. 

I'll pose another question, what if Morrison steps down retires and hands over the reigns to Frydenberg, all the focus on Morrison is out the window. Just saying.
With regard McGowan, he is doing a great job, IMO he is Barnett in a different party, which is fine.
As long as the policies and the direction, is for the benefit of the State, who gives a rats ar$e which party it is, I don't.


----------



## mullokintyre (27 August 2021)

And once again the MSM add fuel to the fire.
 From ABC NEWS


> New research shows that under the current settings, daily COVID-19 case numbers will continue to climb and could peak between 1,500 and 6,000 a day by early October.
> The University of Sydney has used complex modelling to forecast the trajectory of the latest outbreak, factoring in the high infectiousness of the Delta variant, current lockdown settings and the progress of the vaccine rollout.
> 
> Using data available up until August 25, it found that if restrictions were fully lifted when 80 per cent of adults were vaccinated, infections could surge to 40,000 cases a day.
> ...



A thinly veiled swipe at those who want to ease restrictions.
Loved the term 'Complex Modelling".
This is to couch it in terms that suggest its the real deal.
But its still just modelling.
Words like "up to" and "could" don't hide the fact that there is no way of ever proving that their models are even close to reality.
There is details on what assumptions they made, what variables went into it, what the range of variable values were used.
No better or worse than the Doherty models.
Mick


----------



## rederob (27 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You wont accept it, you're the one who is saying that the Queensland Government was building the wellcamp facility, because the Feds weren't building one
> then in the next post you said Pinkenba was actually proceeding.



Queensland is building Wellcamp because the feds have made zero progress to date anywhere in Australia.
The Pinkenba facility has not yet finalised building plans, and once drawn up they will need to go to tender (unless built by the Army), so construction might commence early next year and be completed within 6 months if incredibly lucky.   That's some 2 years too late.

Qld's Premier rightly puts the State's ability to control covid ahead of federal procrastination and inaction on quarantine and correctly says preventable lockdowns cost States billions.  You can spin anything you want to believe but finally getting a *purpose built* facility sooner rather than later achieves health/safety and economic imperatives.

Regarding quarantine responsibility, I am not aware of any State Act that prevails. All the initial agreements via National Cabinet related to cost sharing and the primary role of State health agencies.  Hotel quarantine was meant to be a stop gap to get overseas Australians safely home, and to that end States originally covered everyone's hotel costs.  That subsequently unravelled to the blame game that continues to this day. 

My last point on Pinkenba is that it need not rely on a MOU as the federal Health Minister has every authority needed to run a quarantine facility.  It's another example of abrogation of responsibility.


----------



## Junior (27 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Queensland is building Wellcamp because the feds have made zero progress to date anywhere in Australia.
> The Pinkenba facility has not yet finalised building plans, and once drawn up they will need to go to tender (unless built by the Army), so construction might commence early next year and be completed within 6 months if incredibly lucky.   That's some 2 years too late.
> 
> Qld's Premier rightly puts the State's ability to control covid ahead of federal procrastination and inaction on quarantine and correctly says preventable lockdowns cost States billions.  You can spin anything you want to believe but finally getting a *purpose built* facility sooner rather than later achieves health/safety and economic imperatives.
> ...




Such a shame it's about 12 months' later than it could have been.  By the time it's finished we'll be at 85% vaccination coverage, and although it may be useful, it won't save us from lockdown/restrictions, the way it could have through 2021.

Not the QLD govn't fault by the way.  The Federal Government has unlimited financial resources, control of the ADF, and even ability to bring in overseas workers should they see fit.  They could have built a couple of mega-facilities late in 2020, when it was blatantly f***ing obvious to all and sundry, they were desperately needed!!  They actually had the stupidity to state it would cost too much....well how much have lockdowns cost us so far this year??


----------



## qldfrog (27 August 2021)

Junior said:


> Such a shame it's about 12 months' later than it could have been.  By the time it's finished we'll be at 85% vaccination coverage, and although it may be useful, it won't save us from lockdown/restrictions, the way it could have through 2021.
> 
> Not the QLD govn't fault by the way.  The Federal Government has unlimited financial resources, control of the ADF, and even ability to bring in overseas workers should they see fit.  They could have built a couple of mega-facilities late in 2020, when it was blatantly f***ing obvious to all and sundry, they were desperately needed!!  They actually had the stupidity to state it would cost too much....well how much have lockdowns cost us so far this year??



and still no one talking about building extra hospital, either the threat of covid is real and we need it now, or it is bogus..mostly ..but we will still need it anyway;
even before any covid here in qld, you wait hours in the hospital ramps before getting admitted;
And I beliee the same elsewhere;
in France they managed to even have less beds now than pre covid 
in 2019, and for previous 2 y , hospital personel were marching, doing pseudo strike..unpaid but still working.....but headline is now about overwhelmed ICUs...and not a journo to speak...

so, in qld, heart attack, call emergencies, 15-20min later ambos are here and driving to the emergency..fair then 2 or 3 h before triage..waiting in the ambulance
this is 2021 without any covid...
Good luck, hope you can pray...


----------



## bellenuit (27 August 2021)

Capitol riot lawyer who said he would never get vaccine has Covid and is on ventilator​








						Capitol riot lawyer who dismissed vaccine has Covid and is on ventilator
					

‘Entire 82nd Airborne couldn’t make me get an experimental government vaccine stuck in my arm,’ attorney tweets




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## mullokintyre (27 August 2021)

Junior said:


> Such a shame it's about 12 months' later than it could have been.  By the time it's finished we'll be at 85% vaccination coverage, and although it may be useful, it won't save us from lockdown/restrictions, the way it could have through 2021.
> 
> Not the QLD govn't fault by the way.  The Federal Government has unlimited financial resources, control of the ADF, and even ability to bring in overseas workers should they see fit.  They could have built a couple of mega-facilities late in 2020, when it was blatantly f***ing obvious to all and sundry, they were desperately needed!!  They actually had the stupidity to state it would cost too much....well how much have lockdowns cost us so far this year??



And who was it that set the lockdowns in place?
Not the Feds.
The state premiers.
Wellcamp is just another foray by an ego driven grandstanding Premier who at one point told everyone that "Queensland Hospitals are for Queenslanders".
She didn't even tell the Feds about it, much less consult.
And as to the people of Toowoomba where the facility will be placed, not a word to them either.
And from ABC NEWS  we have 


> Dr Matthew Cordone, who works across the border at Tweed Heads Superclinic, said it was an "unbelievable situation".
> A Gold Coast doctor says orders that non-medical staff can no longer cross the border for work are putting lives at risk and compromising the vaccine rollout.
> Health care providers on both sides of the border were outraged after the ban, which came into effect yesterday.
> It meant non-medical staff — which included speech pathologists, reception staff, caterers, practice managers and social workers at hospitals and private practices — were no longer considered essential workers.
> ...




If Wellcamp is built, and the Feds go ahead with Pinkemba, which one do you think will become a white elephant? 
The Feds control the International Airports and will direct people to  Pinkemba, because it is a perfect way to stick it up the premier, which  is what the entire game is all about. 
Its just Politics, none of them give a rats arse as to their constituents, despite all the hand wringing and token speeches.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (27 August 2021)

Junior said:


> Such a shame it's about 12 months' later than it could have been.  By the time it's finished we'll be at 85% vaccination coverage, and although it may be useful, it won't save us from lockdown/restrictions, the way it could have through 2021.
> 
> Not the QLD govn't fault by the way.  The Federal Government has unlimited financial resources, control of the ADF, and even ability to bring in overseas workers should they see fit.  They could have built a couple of mega-facilities late in 2020, when it was blatantly f***ing obvious to all and sundry, they were desperately needed!!  They actually had the stupidity to state it would cost too much....well how much have lockdowns cost us so far this year??



Yep, concentration camps are da bomb.

Sklaverei ist Freiheit, Kamerad!


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2021)

Wellcamp, it sounds too good to be true, built on Wagner land, by the Wagner family building group, to service the Wagner family airport. Paid for by the taxpayer, with no open tender. Smells of a taxpayer funded holiday resort, when the virus quarantining isn't required.
Carparks anyone.  
I would like to see what would have been said, if the Libs had suggested it.🤣


----------



## divs4ever (27 August 2021)

qldfrog said:


> and still no one talking about building extra hospital, either the threat of covid is real and we need it now, or it is bogus..mostly ..but we will still need it anyway;
> even before any covid here in qld, you wait hours in the hospital ramps before getting admitted;
> And I beliee the same elsewhere;
> in France they managed to even have less beds now than pre covid
> ...



 awesome 

 i have plenty of time to find my nitro-lingual then

 the  directions FOR ME ( and NOT most people  ) is 

 ring the ambulance FIRST and then have a couple of whiffs of Nitro  , because the Nitro reacting with the current medications will guarantee  hospital treatment  is necessary ( regardless  of the need  for any heart treatment )

 luckily  i haven't needed to do this in the last 4 years ,  but the instructions still make me smile 

 and if a heart attack i would be tempted to ring a cab ( despite the fact the Ambos are free for me , and the local paramedics tend to be cuties )  

 cabs are NOT impressed by those bleeding, vomiting  etc etc  , but they do tend to arrive  promptly most off-peak hours


----------



## divs4ever (27 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Wellcamp, it sounds too good to be true, built on Wagner land, by the Wagner family building group, to service the Wagner family airport. Paid for by the taxpayer, with no open tender. Smells of a taxpayer funded holiday resort, when the virus quarantining isn't required.
> Carparks anyone.
> I would like to see what would have been said, if the Libs had suggested it.🤣



 well i hold some WGN ,


 so have mixed feelings about this


----------



## rederob (27 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And who was it that set the lockdowns in place?
> Not the Feds.



True.
The feds failed Border Protection and, separately, Quarantine.
As a result the States used the tried and proven lockdown strategy.


mullokintyre said:


> Wellcamp is just another foray by an ego driven grandstanding Premier who at one point told everyone that "Queensland Hospitals are for Queenslanders".
> She didn't even tell the Feds about it, much less consult.



Wellcamp has been on the cards since January - only a surprise if you live in a cave.


mullokintyre said:


> If Wellcamp is built, and the Feds go ahead with Pinkemba, which one do you think will become a white elephant?



Neither.
Wellcamp replaces a very small volume of current hotel occupancy, and even with Pinkenba will be inadequate for arrivals.


mullokintyre said:


> The Feds control the International Airports and will direct people to  Pinkemba, because it is a perfect way to stick it up the premier, which  is what the entire game is all about.



Let's hope they do that.  It will show how pathetic the feds have been in their blame game and politicking of responses to a health emergency.


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> well i hold some WGN ,
> 
> 
> so have mixed feelings about this



Well done, it should work out well for Wagner, they get paid to build it and no doubt operate it.
Then post Covid it is a purpose built village for overseas seasonal workers. No doubt Wagner recruitment and labour supply will be kicking off in the future. Win, Win, Win, I think I will be picking some up.


----------



## macca (27 August 2021)

Meanwhile, we have another attempt to slow the spread of Covid.

It seems that nasal sprays are looking promising, as Covid incubates within the sinus area that does make sense.

Of particular interest is Xlean, a spray that is currently available OTC for sinus relief right now here in OZ.
As it is already in common usage I have ordered some for myself, seems a no brainer to me.

If we can find something to stop/slow the spread we are well on the way to a normal world

It is starting phase 3 in the USA 30/8

<<Brief Summary:
This study aims to find out the efficacy of Xlear nasal spray as an adjunct medication against COVID-19. This encompasses reduction in the number of days to negativization via nasal swab PCR from the average 14 days and early improvement of symptoms.>>









						A Study to Evaluate the Efficacy of Xlear vs. Placebo for Acute COVID-19 Infection - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov
					

A Study to Evaluate the Efficacy of Xlear vs. Placebo for Acute COVID-19 Infection - Full Text View.




					clinicaltrials.gov


----------



## Humid (27 August 2021)

Junior said:


> Such a shame it's about 12 months' later than it could have been.  By the time it's finished we'll be at 85% vaccination coverage, and although it may be useful, it won't save us from lockdown/restrictions, the way it could have through 2021.
> 
> Not the QLD govn't fault by the way.  The Federal Government has unlimited financial resources, control of the ADF, and even ability to bring in overseas workers should they see fit.  They could have built a couple of mega-facilities late in 2020, when it was blatantly f***ing obvious to all and sundry, they were desperately needed!!  They actually had the stupidity to state it would cost too much....well how much have lockdowns cost us so far this year??



If only Harvey Norman had a construction department.....


----------



## sptrawler (27 August 2021)

Humid said:


> If only Harvey Norman had a construction department.....



They're probably supplying the furniture. 🤣


----------



## wayneL (27 August 2021)

Collateral damage > COVID


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 August 2021)

Prof. Peter Doherty

@ProfPCDoherty
·
3h

For the Ivermectin enthusiasts, here's what the Merck Company that made this drug and gave it free for the treatment of river blindness in Africa say about its use for therapy in COVID-19.









						Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com
					

KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of...




					www.merck.com
				




(the above is a quote from Professor Doherty not Doctor-got-an-opinion-from-google-hospice-mouthpiece)


----------



## Joules MM1 (27 August 2021)

@bellenuit @sptrawler  and @IFocus 









						Clamoring for ivermectin, some turn to a pro-Trump telemedicine website
					

Ivermectin is the hot new false cure in some Facebook and Reddit groups, where shortages are pushing some people to a pro-Trump telemedicine site.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## mullokintyre (28 August 2021)

Science, such a wonderful thing. 
You can use "The Science" to support anything you like.
It just depends on how you interpret it.
Here is some science.
I have no doubt there will be people  who says its debunked, or criticise it because of who wrote it (Zionism etc etc).
I am putting it here because it uses real data, not a model.
The contestable part is the interpretation.
From Science Org



> The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.
> The study demonstrates the power of the human immune system, but infectious disease experts emphasized that this vaccine and others for COVID-19 nonetheless remain highly protective against severe disease and death.
> The researchers also found that people who had SARS-CoV-2 previously and then received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine were more highly protected against reinfection than those who once had the virus and were still unvaccinated.
> The study, conducted in one of the most highly COVID-19–vaccinated countries in the world, examined medical records of tens of thousands of Israelis, charting their infections, symptoms, and hospitalizations between 1 June and 14 August, when the Delta variant predominated in Israel. It’s the largest real-world observational study so far to compare natural and vaccine-induced immunity to SARS-CoV-2, according to its leaders.
> ...



The article lots more info on data numbers,  as well as comments from  other  peers in the field (I hate to call them experts, its such an overused term these days).
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (28 August 2021)

And just to prove to some state premiers that it is possible, we have the news that Denmark has scrapped all Covid -19 restrictions, as they reckon they have it under control.
From  Danish Government Press Release



> The current categorization of covid-19 as a socially critical disease expires on September 10, 2021. The government has decided not to extend this categorization. This is partly due to the large vaccination support, and partly to the strong epidemic control.
> 
> The decision not to extend covid-19's status as a socially critical disease was made after involving the professional reference group, the Epidemic Commission and the health authorities.
> Minister of Health Magnus Heunicke states:
> The epidemic is under control, we have record high vaccination rates. Therefore, on September 10, we can drop some of the special rules we have had to introduce in the fight against covid-19. The government has promised not to hold on to the measures any longer than was necessary, and there we are now. But even though we are in a good place right now, we are not out of the epidemic. And the government will not hesitate to act quickly if the pandemic again threatens important functions in our society.



Mick


----------



## cynic (28 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And just to prove to some state premiers that it is possible, we have the news that Denmark has scrapped all Covid -19 restrictions, as they reckon they have it under control.
> From  Danish Government Press Release
> 
> 
> Mick



It may be worth noting that Denmark is nearing the end of the summer season. 

Perhaps a "wait and see what happens" approach, for the next 6 months, might be in order.


----------



## sptrawler (28 August 2021)

Sounds as though things are going up a notch in NSW.
I guess the two truckies, who were delta positive and drove from the East coast to the West coast, has put a scare up the authorities. 




__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				



From the article:
NSW authorised workers must receive at least one Covid jab in the next week in order to work outside their local areas, under new rules.
The change means rapid antigen testing will no longer be alternative to vaccination, NSW Health said.

“In order to work outside their area of concern, authorised workers must now have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine by Monday 6 September,” the department said in a statement late on Friday.


----------



## mullokintyre (28 August 2021)

cynic said:


> It may be worth noting that Denmark is nearing the end of the summer season.
> 
> Perhaps a "wait and see what happens" approach, for the next 6 months, might be in order.



I guess then seeing as we are coming into summer, things should ease up here.
Mick


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 August 2021)

C. Michael Gibson MD

@CMichaelGibson
·
20h

This is the kind of effort and teamwork that it takes to care for a #COvid19 patient … #GetVaccinated


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 August 2021)

__





						Setting it Straight | Doherty Website
					

Nobel Laureate Professor Peter Doherty explores all things infection and immunity in a new weekly column, Setting it Straight, exclusive to the Doherty Institute website. Read more.




					www.doherty.edu.au
				




engaging reading

and this: https://twitter.com/ProfPCDoherty


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Science, such a wonderful thing.
> You can use "The Science" to support anything you like.
> It just depends on how you interpret it.
> Here is some science.
> ...




my usual go-to is "is this article/opine peer reviewed" if not by a science-applied practitioner
i think Meredith gets a pass on that question. Thanks, Mick.
Meredith Wadman​ 
Meredith joined _Science_ as a staff writer in September 2016, after covering biomedical research and its politics from Washington, D.C., for 20 years. Her current beat includes biology research, policy, and sexual harassment . She has been a staff writer for _Nature_ and a contributing writer at _Fortune_. She has also written op-eds for _The Wall Street Journal_, _The New York Times_ and _The Washington Post_.  Her first book, _The Vaccine Race: Science, Politics and the Human Costs of Defeating Disease_, was published by Viking (U.S./Canada) and Transworld (U.K.) in February 2017. Meredith earned her B.A. in Human Biology at Stanford University and began medical school at the University of British Columbia in her native Vancouver. She completed her medical degree as a Rhodes Scholar at the University of Oxford in the United Kingdom, and earned a master’s of science at the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism.


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 August 2021)

throughout most of human evolution, there were no epidemic diseases, 
until...
no one ever got the measles, because measles didnt exist,
no one got smallpox, no one got the flu,
..when we domesticated animals...... into the barnyard they brought the diseases with them..."
"..cows and sheep for example...Measles now thought of as a benign disease..last 150 years measles has killed 200 million people.."
(paraphrased)
"...Smallpox likely came from camel pox
"...pigs - whooping cough
"...chickens - typhoid fever
" ...ducks - influenza
"...Leprosy likely came from buffalo 
"...and the common cold from horses
"...so called hamburgerization of the rain forest exposed hemorrhagic fever viruses
"..including Lassa virus..and of course Ebola
"...bird smuggling brought West Nile virus
"...emerging pig pathogen streptococcus - meningitis
"...sick cows fed to people - mad cow disease
"...why is there so much concern about the 'bird flu' because the last time a bird flu virus 
    adapted to human beings it triggered the  worst plague in human history
"Dr. Greger Told Us About Coronavirus Risk In 2008"​




commend watch this  at 1.5 speed


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 August 2021)

@cynic  this ones for you 

New York Times Pitchbot
@DougJBalloon
·
Aug 27

We wanted to understand how ivermectin, an anti-parasitic medicine usually given to horses, could also be used to treat COVID in humans.  So we talked to three Eric Clapton fans at a Cheesecake Factory in Tampa.


----------



## sptrawler (28 August 2021)

Well vaccine hesitancy, seems to have gone out the window.









						NSW vaccinates more than 150,000 people in one day as COVID-19 crisis reaches record new level
					

NSW sets daily COVID-19 records for both new infections and vaccines, as Health Minister Brad Hazzard announces restrictions on weddings will be eased next week.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Belli (29 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well vaccine hesitancy, seems to have gone out the window.




Nice at one level but it's just a raw number.  No large impact in having 125,000 vaccinations in locations where infections are trending down and 80% of the population is vaccinated and 25,000 in other locations where only 20% of the population is vaccinated and infections are trending up.  I have seen some projections where, even at the current rates of vaccinations, NSW will experience close to 3,000 infections per day.

Edit:  This from the Burnet Institute.  It makes for grim reading I'm sorry to say.





__





						Focus on contact tracing, lockdowns in opening up
					

The need for lockdowns and effective contact tracing should to be included in the debate over plans to reopen Australia, according to Professor Allan Saul.



					www.burnet.edu.au


----------



## mullokintyre (29 August 2021)

Had a conversation with one of my kids yesterday.
His neighbour is a bit strange,  sort of bloke who complains about everyone else's dog while his own roams around the neighbourhood freely.
And it turns out he is an anti vaxxer.
Son thought he would see how the old bugger was doing and stopped to talk to him during the week.
Son mentioned that the and his other half had their Pfizer injection the week before and neighbour went off his tree.
The final parting word was that one of his favourite pastimes during lockdown was to book a vaxxine spot either locally or via the gov hot spot, then cancel a few days before.
Son won't be bothering doing the neighbourly thing again.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (29 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have to respect people like Doherty who have had a lifetime of devotion to their work and at 80, is still going strong.
Nothwithstanding that, there are some  who think that the Doherty institue is being used by the feds and others to push their biews.

From Matt Barrie


> On the 23rd of August Prime Minister Morrison said in Parliament “_The plan as we set out very clearly about…that when we reach 70%, and we reach 80%, we can move through to phase B of that plan,_* those marks have been set by the Doherty analysis that was undertaken*_ Mr Speaker”._
> 
> I spent a late evening reading it.
> 
> ...



The article is long, and probably needs to be read in conjunction with the Doherty report.
But it does make some valid points.
Its not so much a criticism of Doherty or his institute as they modelled what the Government asked them to do. Its more a criticism of those who took the governments word for what it was supposed to have said.
In the end, its still just a model, and may or may not bear any resemblance to reality.
Mick


----------



## Belli (29 August 2021)

From discussions with some who know way more than I do, the Doherty Institute seeded its model with 30 cases *nationally *to ensure the virus did not die out naturally. The 70% vaccination number thrown about by many is actually relating to the population eligible for a vaccination (at that time) which is some 55% of the entire population and that testing, tracing, isolation and quarantine would manage outbreaks but still require a lockdown of some sort. It was a very cautious document in its modeling apparently. If cases go up and the tracing, etc become overwhelmed and less able to cope all bets were off. So how are the contract tracing teams going despite working their butts off?

Tis is one model predicting the infections.









						Progression of the COVID outbreak in New South Wales
					

Plot of cases and estimated R_eff for the COVID outbreak in New South Wales



					chrisbillington.net
				




The methodology is at the bottom of the page.  Dr Billington is a physicist at the University of Melbourne.  The home page has other data which may be of interest.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2021)

Belli said:


> Nice at one level but it's just a raw number.  No large impact in having 125,000 vaccinations in locations where infections are trending down and 80% of the population is vaccinated and 25,000 in other locations where only 20% of the population is vaccinated and infections are trending up.  I have seen some projections where, even at the current rates of vaccinations, NSW will experience close to 3,000 infections per day.
> 
> Edit:  This from the Burnet Institute.  It makes for grim reading I'm sorry to say.
> 
> ...



Very true Belli, I was reading in the W.A weekend paper, the affluent areas are way ahead in Vaccine uptake, the working class and lower socio areas still have a lot of hesitancy.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2021)

It looks as though the W.A mining companies might follow the Wellcamp model.








						Mining plan for FIFO quarantine hub in WA revealed
					

The mining industry is exploring the potential for a COVID-19 quarantine hub in WA’s North West so they can fly in skilled workers from overseas.




					thewest.com.au


----------



## Belli (29 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Very true Belli, I was reading in the W.A weekend paper, the affluent areas are way ahead in Vaccine uptake, the working class and lower socio areas still have a lot of hesitancy.




That is really bad.  I'll be honest and to say I have little sympathy for the Derick's and Susanne's doing it tough on $4k per week and $100k in the bank and whining about not being able to have canapes and drinks on the beach as it's 100 meters outside of their 5k zone would be an understatement.  However, for the Raj's and Indira's living high on the hog on $1,500 a week and $500 in the bank I have a different attitude.  I'm in the Derick group without a Susanne by the way.

The whole approach has been a shambles from the top in my view.  To me it doesn't appear there was much attempt to engage with respected leaders of various cultural groups to encourage vaccinations, a wasted opportunity of five months or more when it was observed the effect of the spread of Delta in India, the UK, through Europe or the US to establish the infastructure for vaccinations when vaccines became readily available here, not correcting misinformation concerning AZ v Pfizer (no reputable clinician has ever said AZ is a bad vaccine just that it has a slightly higher but still extremely low risk for certain age groups), poor targeting the peoples of the First Nations who have a higher risk.  And the list goes on.  Just my take on things.  Others will have a different view of the matter as is their right.


----------



## Joules MM1 (29 August 2021)

A nurse on Sydney’s COVID frontline tells it like it is
					

Michelle Rosentreter is a senior ICU nurse, and she says her team is just holding on.




					www.smh.com.au
				




my first employer was a hospital, worked there for two years, I can attest the staff wear the laziness of politicians and it's always an ill-fit
(no pun intended!) ...1977, nothings changed


----------



## wayneL (29 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> @cynic  this ones for you
> 
> New York Times Pitchbot
> @DougJBalloon
> ...



"Usually given to horses"

This is the sort of framing which indicates at least an element of propaganda in my opinion.

Yes ivermectin is a common horse/livestock anti-parasitic drug.

Likewise penicillin is a very common antibiotic given to horses and livestock.... Plus dexamethasone, Osphos, and upteen other drugs.

However there is probably more ivermectin manufactured for humans than for livestock.

We don't say "penicillin an antibiotic usually given to a horses”, now do we?

like everything the concept of using ivermectin, along with other drugs to treat covid, has become politisized and propagandized for reasons one can easily speculate over. It is not a dry scientific, data driven argument at all... But we could probably say that for both sides of the equation. 

This, just like with the so-called vaccine, makes it very difficult for we plebeians to actually come to a reasonable conclusion without allowing our biases to overcome the actual dry data.

It might be the ducks nuts (along with doxycycline and zinc or whatever) for treating covid, or it might be ineffective, or it might be at some point between those two extremes.

One thing is for sure, it does not have the adverse reactions that these jabs do. You are not going die from taking ivermectin. 

...and at least it will clean you out of most worms and knock off the pubic lice you picked up from Roxanne the local hooker last week (sex work being considered an essential service an' all that).  </tongueincheek>









						Ivermectin - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Joules MM1 (29 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> "Usually given to horses"
> 
> This is the sort of framing which indicates at least an element of propaganda in my opinion.
> 
> ...




the reason we dont say penicillin is for horses is because the specific penicillin is for horses and nothing like the penicillin for people,
and clearly there is no reason to think people would inject/injest a horse penicillin 
however, we should promote conscious dimwittery not be pirsued, intaking paste designed for an animal  proven ineffective
there are ample peer-reviewed papers, even the company that makes the paste posted an article discouraging the intake by people

keep in mind that someone can rant about how effective an animal pasted in in the same way that someone can rant about how pear kernels saved them from cancer, a sample of like-minded idiots does not make a substantial body of evidence

the "well-maybe-it-could-be-true-you-dont-have-the-right-to-dismiss-it" line of thought is more to do with psycho-babble fear than actual verifiable research


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2021)

It will be interesting to follow the NSW progress, it should by rights send their economy off again, but how the other States respond to NSW travellers will be interesting especially Tassie and W.A.








						Premier says NSW will 'show the way' how to live with COVID as state records 1,218 new cases
					

NSW is now halfway to its target of having 70 per cent of adults fully vaccinated — the milestone in which the state will start to open up —  with 834,000 people receiving a vaccine dose in the past week.




					www.abc.net.au
				



NSW is now halfway to its target of having 70 per cent of adults fully vaccinated — the milestone in which the state will start to open up — despite recording 1,218 new local COVID-19 cases.
While 65 per cent of adults in NSW have now received one vaccination, 35 per cent are now fully vaccinated.

"We are approaching 1 million jabs a week and for a population of 8 million people, that is outstanding," the Premier said.

"Thank you. It is making a difference. We are going to show the way in Australia as to how you can live with COVID."

Almost 50,000 vaccines doses were administered in the 24 hours to 8:00pm yesterday.


----------



## wayneL (29 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> the reason we dont say penicillin is for horses is because the specific penicillin is for horses and nothing like the penicillin for people,
> and clearly there is no reason to think people would inject/injest a horse penicillin
> however, we should promote conscious dimwittery not be pirsued, intaking paste designed for an animal  proven ineffective
> there are ample peer-reviewed papers, even the company that makes the paste posted an article discouraging the intake by people
> ...



Again you miss-frame things to misinform.

Nobody is suggesting that people should buy a horse paste and shove it down their throat. There may be other substances contained in the paste that would be incongruent with human physiology. Additionally, there is the question of correct dosage.

However, ivermectin intended for humans is readily available and available via prescription from your doctor.

There is *absolutely no question* about it's efficacy and safety for its on label purpose.

The argument here is about an off label purpose Viz, the treatment, along with other drugs, of a respiratory disease.

There appears to be peer-reviewed research that contradicts each other. Again that makes me suspicious about the motives of the researchers... on both sides of the ledger. 

And worth pointing out that classic mistake in the belief that peer-reviewed automatically makes some research gospel, or even partially correct.

To belabour the point I have made repeatedly once again here,  that over decades I've been an avid consumer of peer-reviewed research in the equine nutrition, exercise physiology, and equine distal physiology and biomechanics fields.

At least 80% of it is absolute Goddamned garbage.

Peer review, though not meaningless, is only one small step in supporting a hypothesis.


----------



## wayneL (29 August 2021)

And BTW @Joules MM1 while it is true that penicillin intended for animals is not recommended for humans for various reasons, penicillin is penicillin. The penicillin that is given to humans is exactly the same penicillin that is given to animals. There may be other variants in terms of added ingredients and purity of manufacture or something like that, but the base active ingredient is exactly the same.









						Is It Safe For Humans To Use Animal Medicines?
					

It's not unheard of for people to take medications prescribed for animals, but is it safe?




					www.newson6.com


----------



## Joules MM1 (29 August 2021)

“You’re made of spare parts, aren’t you, bud?” *— Wayne (sayings from Letter Kenny) :*

However, medications produced for livestock and intended to be mixed with feed may not undergo the same level of manufacturing scrutiny by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as human drugs do.3 These products may have more impurities that don't represent a health concern for the animals but could be a risk for people.
* Self-Medication Risks * 

A bigger issue, however, is self-medicating with drugs that may not be appropriate. This self-medicating may especially be a problem with the self-diagnosis of infection and then self-treating with an animal’s antibiotic.4
The self-diagnosis may not be correct. The antibiotic may not be the correct one to treat the infection or the dose may not be correct. If cost is the issue, many antibiotics are generic and can be purchased for as little as $4 for a prescription.








						Can Pet Medications Be Used By Humans?
					

Humans using medications meant for animals is not uncommon, especially with people who work with animals. However, is it a legal or safe practice?




					www.verywellhealth.com
				



By
Michael Bihari, MD

Fact checked by
Ashley Hall
on February 23, 2020


----------



## Belli (29 August 2021)

The Therapeutic Goods Administration has provided a similar warning as the FDA on the matter.  Sharing is not caring.



> This also applies to medicines: what's good for your pup, fish or cat can do you a lot of harm. Although some animal medicines may share the same or similar ingredients as human medicines, they are not safe for human use and shouldn't be taken.


----------



## wayneL (29 August 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> “You’re made of spare parts, aren’t you, bud?” *— Wayne (sayings from Letter Kenny) :*
> 
> However, medications produced for livestock and intended to be mixed with feed may not undergo the same level of manufacturing scrutiny by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as human drugs do.3 These products may have more impurities that don't represent a health concern for the animals but could be a risk for people.
> * Self-Medication Risks *
> ...



Jesus Christ. 

Who the hell is suggesting self diagnosis and self-administration with animal products??

Not me, if you read my post again. 


Yet again you are misframing the whole argument.

But I reiterate the actual drug ivermectin is just ivermectin whether it's in a horse wormer or a pill intended for human consumption. Penicillin is just penicillin whether it's in an injection intended for livestock or in a form intended to be consumed by humans.

Nobody is suggesting that we inject ourself with penicillin with an 18 gauge needle for f##sake, nor shove a tube of horse wormer down our necks.

How many times and in how many ways do I have to say that?


----------



## rederob (29 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> You have to respect people like Doherty who have had a lifetime of devotion to their work and at 80, is still going strong.
> Nothwithstanding that, there are some  who think that the Doherty institue is being used by the feds and others to push their biews.
> 
> From Matt Barrie
> ...



Matt Barrie clearly did not understand the modelling.  For example, he said:
*"They’ve simply stopped the simulation before the effects of opening up play out."*​Whereas the modelling commences *after *a decision to open up, and with one outbreak to kickstart community transmission.
His next gross error is in assuming covid is like a common respiratory virus.  The infectivity of covid has not been positively correlated to seasonality.  Take a look at Spain which has 2 of its 5 waves beginning in summer:






Or Canada which had its second wave taper off as the colder January/February months kicked in, but took off into a third wave after the snow melt and into the warmer spring months:




I couldn't really work out what Barrie was on about after that as his data analysis was haphazard.
Doherty's simple takeaway is that even with an 80% vaccination level and daily infections peaking around 50K, total deaths after 180 days is less than a thousand, on the basis of his "all adults" vaccination strategy.  National Cabinet has endorsed Doherty's framework, but that's about it.
If you think Doherty's modelling is off, then look at where the UK is today, and they don't yet have 80% fully vaccinated.


----------



## basilio (29 August 2021)

This is how easily the Delta strain infects people.









						Unvaccinated teacher infected half their students with Covid, CDC finds
					

Teacher read to class without a mask despite Covid symptoms and infected 26 people at California elementary school




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## macca (29 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Jesus Christ.
> 
> Who the hell is suggesting self diagnosis and self-administration with animal products??
> 
> ...



Wayne,

I have already posted links for this, it seems to me that some people want to live in fear, millions of people have been taking this drug for years and it has saved countless lives.





__





						Coronavirus (COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2) outbreak discussion
					

possibly two rampant diseases, Sars-Cov2 and Dunning-Kruger  Doctor google sez Dunning-Kruger effect, in psychology, a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain...




					www.aussiestockforums.com


----------



## rederob (29 August 2021)

macca said:


> Wayne,
> 
> I have already posted links for this, it seems to me that some people want to live in fear, millions of people have been taking this drug for years and it has saved countless lives.
> 
> ...



There is no evidence your chosen drug is effective against covid, and millions of deaths suggesting covid cannot be taken lightly.
You seem oblivious to the havoc covid has wreaked across the globe.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 August 2021)

Belli said:


> That is really bad.  I'll be honest and to say I have little sympathy for the Derick's and Susanne's doing it tough on $4k per week and $100k in the bank and whining about not being able to have canapes and drinks on the beach as it's 100 meters outside of their 5k zone would be an understatement.  However, for the Raj's and Indira's living high on the hog on $1,500 a week and $500 in the bank I have a different attitude.  I'm in the Derick group without a Susanne by the way.
> 
> The whole approach has been a shambles from the top in my view.  To me it doesn't appear there was much attempt to engage with respected leaders of various cultural groups to encourage vaccinations, a wasted opportunity of five months or more when it was observed the effect of the spread of Delta in India, the UK, through Europe or the US to establish the infastructure for vaccinations when vaccines became readily available here, not correcting misinformation concerning AZ v Pfizer (no reputable clinician has ever said AZ is a bad vaccine just that it has a slightly higher but still extremely low risk for certain age groups), poor targeting the peoples of the First Nations who have a higher risk.  And the list goes on.  Just my take on things.  Others will have a different view of the matter as is their right.






rederob said:


> Matt Barrie clearly did not understand the modelling.  For example, he said:
> *"They’ve simply stopped the simulation before the effects of opening up play out."*​Whereas the modelling commences *after *a decision to open up, and with one outbreak to kickstart community transmission.
> His next gross error is in assuming covid is like a common respiratory virus.  The infectivity of covid has not been positively correlated to seasonality.  Take a look at Spain which has 2 of its 5 waves beginning in summer:
> View attachment 129564
> ...



As usual you put words in others mouths.
I never said Doherty modelling is off, I have no opinion on it other than to suspect ALL modelling, not just Doherty's.
I am to review all sides of discussions, not merely the ones you approve of.
Mick


----------



## rederob (30 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> As usual you put words in others mouths.
> I never said Doherty modelling is off, I have no opinion on it other than to suspect ALL modelling, not just Doherty's.
> I am to review all sides of discussions, not merely the ones you approve of.
> Mick



Your linked article was headed:
*"Australian public fed nonsense as country heads to “irreversible” decision"*​I showed it began with 2 incorrect claims, and thereafter could not understand the haphazard analysis.
If you link to an article and say it has valid points, wouldn't it be a good idea to say what they are given it has obvious shortcomings.


----------



## noirua (30 August 2021)

Mr Wallace was moved to a hospice on 27 August where his family was able to see him before he died. Earlier in July, Mr Wallace had staged a “Freedom Rally” for people who were “sick of the government being in control of our lives.”




__





						Leader of Texas anti-mask movement dies from Covid-19
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## mullokintyre (30 August 2021)

rederob said:


> Your linked article was headed:
> *"Australian public fed nonsense as country heads to “irreversible” decision"*​I showed it began with 2 incorrect claims, and thereafter could not understand the haphazard analysis.
> If you link to an article and say it has valid points, wouldn't it be a good idea to say what they are given it has obvious shortcomings.



The article was headedb as such. 
I did not say it.
For a bloke who reckons he is a genius at data analysis, you seem to fail at basic reading.
Was it you who recently posted that you studied logic at at University?
Did you pass?
Mick


----------



## rederob (30 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The article was headedb as such.
> I did not say it.
> For a bloke who reckons he is a genius at data analysis, you seem to fail at basic reading.
> Was it you who recently posted that you studied logic at at University?
> ...



As I said, tell us why the linked article was worth reading given its incorrect assumptions and haphazard analysis.
Putting up rubbish is never a good look.


----------



## basilio (30 August 2021)

*He followed his principles to the end. I wonder how many more people will follow him ?*​​Texas man who led anti-mask protests in name of ‘freedom’ dies of Covid-19​
Caleb Wallace, 30, had been unconscious since 8 August
Wife: ‘He loved his family and his little girls more than anything’
Florida radio host who called himself ‘Mr Anti-Vax’ dies of Covid





A protester against mandates to wear masks amid the coronavirus pandemic is seen in Austin, Texas. Photograph: Sergio Flores/Reuters

Associated Press in San Angelo, Texas
Sun 29 Aug 2021 16.59 BST


A man who led efforts in his central Texas community against mask-wearing and other preventative measures during the coronavirus pandemic has died from Covid-19, a month after being admitted to the emergency room.




Read more
Caleb Wallace died on Saturday, his wife Jessica Wallace said on a GoFundMe page where she posted updates on his condition, the San Angelo Standard-Times reported.

He was 30 years old and a father of three. His wife is pregnant with their fourth child.

*...Jessica Wallace told the newspaper her husband began experiencing Covid symptoms on 26 July but refused to get tested or go to the hospital. He instead took high doses of Vitamin C, zinc aspirin and ivermectin, an anti-parasitic medicine used for livestock that officials have urged people not to take for Covid-19.*









						Texas man who led anti-mask protests in name of ‘freedom’ dies of Covid-19
					

Wife says Caleb Wallace, 30, who had been unconscious since 8 August, ‘loved his family and his little girls more than anything’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (30 August 2021)

Seems Victoria's early lockdowns didn't "quash" anything. Amazing how fast delta gets out of control. They are now in the position of being stuck in lockdowns.


----------



## mullokintyre (30 August 2021)

moXJO said:


> Seems Victoria's early lockdowns didn't "quash" anything. Amazing how fast delta gets out of control. They are now in the position of being stuck in lockdowns.



Victoria has been in stuck in various forms of lock down for about the last  15 years.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (30 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Victoria has been in stuck in various forms of lock down for about the last  15 years.
> Mick



Feels longer than that


----------



## sptrawler (30 August 2021)

Interesting study, as to the long term effectiveness of Pfizer Vs AstraZeneca.








						The AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine is as effective as Pfizer, study shows
					

Yet another study has shown that two doses of Pfizer and two doses of AstraZeneca are equal in preventing serious illness and hospitalisation.




					thenewdaily.com.au


----------



## IFocus (30 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting study, as to the long term effectiveness of Pfizer Vs AstraZeneca.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Lucky you listen to our advice SP  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣


----------



## sptrawler (30 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Lucky you listen to our advice SP  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣



That's the thing with me IFocus, I listen to everyone's advice, then decide which to take. 

If you read right back through this thread, I haven't given any advice, unlike a lot of others. 

If I want advice, like you I will ask my other half, who has some knowledge in the area. The last place I would be searching for medical advice, is on a stock forum, even though many feel they are experts in all fields. 🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣


----------



## IFocus (30 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's the thing with me IFocus, I listen to everyone's advice, then decide which to take.
> 
> If you read right back through this thread, I haven't given any advice, unlike a lot of others.
> 
> If I want advice, like you I will ask my other half, who has some knowledge in the area. *The last place I would be searching for medical advice, is on a stock forum*, even though many feel they are experts in all fields. 🤣  🤣  🤣  🤣





Very true SP I am lucky that I am surrounded by many in the family that have medical backgrounds across a few areas ( a couple are pharmacists') one who sits on a government board that aproves drugs etc and all are generally reluctant to give family advice but normally will talk about the risks, negatives and positives of any medications (not aware of any drug / medication that doesn't carry risk).

So for me and family getting vaccinated was a no brainer but I do cringe reading so much BS / dog whistle from the fringe / conspiracy / twitter / facebook / utube and Fox / Murdoch press etc  then you get to pollicization (US).  

Then I have a friend who lectures me that I am only doing what my masters are telling me to do.

I wonder where it all ends up?


----------



## sptrawler (30 August 2021)

People listen to whoever resonates with their personal beliefs, be that medical, political, spiritual, moral, the ones who are really lost are those who place all their trust based on the source and dismiss other information based on the source.  
All sides have agendas and self interests, the last people to ever find out are the plebs.
What did Ben Franklin say "believe half of what you see and non of what you hear"
That applies 10 fold in todays world.


----------



## wayneL (31 August 2021)

Meanwhile, a woman suffering cancer and undergoing treatment, has been denied re-entry to Qld after attending her father's funeral in Vic.

This should disgust even our resident brownshirts.


----------



## sptrawler (31 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Meanwhile, a woman suffering cancer and undergoing treatment, has been denied re-entry to Qld after attending her father's funeral in Vic.
> 
> This should disgust even our resident brownshirts.




It is strange that there isn't an uproar, when you consider the amount of outcry about the controlled entry of Australians, who want to return home.


----------



## mullokintyre (31 August 2021)

wayneL said:


> Meanwhile, a woman suffering cancer and undergoing treatment, has been denied re-entry to Qld after attending her father's funeral in Vic.
> 
> This should disgust even our resident brownshirts.




As usual, the elites don't think the rules apply to them, its only for the great unwashed.
Let them eat cake  she said.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (31 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> People listen to whoever resonates with their personal beliefs, be that medical, political, spiritual, moral, the ones who are really lost are those who place all their trust based on the source and dismiss other information based on the source.
> All sides have agendas and self interests, the last people to ever find out are the plebs.
> What did Ben Franklin say "believe half of what you see and non of what you hear"
> That applies 10 fold in todays world.





Australia has a very experienced well educated, world class,  independent and quite conservative medical advisory / overseeing / publicly responsible bodies / groups.

These very people have spent their entire lives trying to improve public health.

And yet people will take a bad experience with a GP or specialist condemn all and listen to some peanut on Utube, twitter, Facebook or nut case website.   

Such is the modern world people have forsaken religious beliefs for conspiracy beliefs.


----------



## mullokintyre (31 August 2021)

From World News


> Western Sydney brothel shut down, fines issued​A brothel in Sydney’s west has been shut down and $12,500 in fines issued after police allege it was operating in breach of the public health order and no one at the premises was wearing a face mask.
> One woman is also due to face court in October after allegedly attempting to return to the address.
> Officers were called to the brothel in Rydalmere about 10.15pm on Monday after receiving a tip-off via Crime Stoppers that the business was still in operation.
> Rydalmere is in the Parramatta local government area, considered an area of concern by the NSW government and under tighter lockdown restrictions including a 9pm to 5am curfew.
> Police spoke with the 57-year-old female owner before entering the premises and finding three women aged 31, 36 and 56, considered employees, and two men aged 56 and 57, considered patrons.



Wondering if the fines were for 
(a)  opening outside curfew hours
(b) Operating a non essential business during lockdown (are there lists of these things?).
(c) Not wearing facemasks inside
(d) All  of the above.


----------



## sptrawler (31 August 2021)

Sounds like the vaccine roll out is hitting the sweet spot, hesitancy falling, delta strain causing urgency and vaccines arriving. Singapore seem to be working with Australia, sending vaccine that is due to expire, in return for ours that hasn't arrived.  BNPL vaccines.🤣








						Extra 500,000 Pfizer doses on the way from Singapore in vaccine swap
					

Singapore will soon send half a million Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine doses to Australia as part of a "swap" between the two countries, delivering a boost to the nation's vaccination program.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Singapore will soon send half a million Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine doses to Australia as part of a "vaccine swap" between the two countries, delivering a boost to the nation's vaccination program. 
Under the agreement, Australia will receive 500,000 Pfizer doses that are due to expire.
The federal government will then deliver half a million Pfizer vaccines back to Singapore in December, when Australia is expected to have ample supplies.


----------



## sptrawler (31 August 2021)

IFocus said:


> Australia has a very experienced well educated, world class,  independent and quite conservative medical advisory / overseeing / publicly responsible bodies / groups.
> 
> These very people have spent their entire lives trying to improve public health.
> 
> ...



That is exactly why, I haven't given anyone any advice on whether to get the vaccine or not, as I said only one of my 4 kids and 8 grandkids have had the vaccine.
The way I look at it is, the information is there for all to hear and read, there is a risk but that applies to having it and not having it.
If anything there has been information overload not all of it helpful, IMO the media has caused the hesitancy and now is saying very little. Maybe they should have tried that tack, in the early stages of the outbreak.

The problem I have is, if I nagged one of my kids or one of my mates into having the vaccine or their spouse having it and something adverse did happen I wouldn't feel that good about myself. It's all well and good if it goes well and you can say "I told you so", it isn't so good if they say "why did you talk us into it", because they were the one in a million who have an adverse outcome.

They have asked me for my opinion, I just tell them I have had the first shot, which vaccine and my reasoning.
It isn't for me, to tell them to have it, just my opinion.
IMO it is just  another issue that will become self resolving, everyone will eventually get vaccinated, or will contract the virus and either survive with immunity or the other outcome.
It is becoming obvious it isn't going away and the Government isn't going to keep closing everything forever, to keep it out.


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

The Israel outbreak of the Delta strain, still causing havoc despite high vaccination rates.








						Grim new Covid record in world's most vaccinated country
					

The nation has reported a staggering new record of daily Covid cases - but scientists are adamant the vaccines are working. Find out more here.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:
Israel is offering third shots to everyone aged 12 and up, but herd immunity remains difficult to reach, with some 2.13 million children under 12 who can only be vaccinated in exceptional cases.

Israel decided to roll out third vaccinations based on Health Ministry figures suggesting the vaccine's effectiveness had declined sharply since the beginning of June among those who had received the first round of jabs.

Meanwhile, the country is battling with the spread of the more contagious Delta variant.


----------



## basilio (1 September 2021)

More and more and more insanity from anti vaxxers.

Welsh teen in hospital with Covid targeted online by anti-vaxxers ​17-year-old accused of being an “actress paid by the government” after urging young people to get vaccinated

Coronavirus – latest updates
See all our coronavirus coverage






Maisy Evans, from Newport, South Wales, has been targeted by online trolls after sharing her experiences of being hospitalised with Covid. Photograph: Maisy Evans

Nadeem Badshah
Tue 31 Aug 2021 20.19 BST
Last modified on Tue 31 Aug 2021 22.05 BST



A 17-year-old in hospital with coronavirus has said she has been targeted by anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists on social media after urging young people to have the vaccine.
Maisy Evans said she has been accused of being a “liar” and an “actress paid by the government” by online trolls.

The teenager has had symptoms including dizziness, shortness of breath, headaches, a loss of smell and taste, as well as suffering a Covid-related blood clot on her lung. She tested positive for the virus on 14 August, three days after having her first Pfizer jab.
However, doctors have insisted her illness and her blood clot are unrelated to the vaccine.

Evans, from Newport, south Wales, told Sky News: “I’ve had to deal with a lot of anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists which is deeply frustrating.
“I’ve been called a liar, an actress paid by the government to push certain agendas, Satan, a Nazi, evil, and so many more things.









						Welsh teen in hospital with Covid targeted online by anti-vaxxers
					

17-year-old accused of being an “actress paid by the government” after urging young people to get vaccinated




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

But being told to die because you want to wait a bit before possibly getting a Vax is okay, right @basilio?


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

And how 'bout dem apples:


----------



## basilio (1 September 2021)

Nothing like* cheery picking * and* diversion *to support an insupportable argument is there ?

I post about the poisonous insanity of (some ?) antivaxxers accusing a young  COVID sick girl of being "a stooge, a liar and a paid actress."
Her take home home message is *"Please get vaccinated because this virus is real and dangerous"*.

The response ? Oh I'm just thinking about exactly when I might consider getting vaccinated after all the proper processes are completed that rule out ........ WTF !

And then the coup de grace. Australia by some luck and  a rigorous approach to quarantine/lockdown has *so far *not suffered the overwhelming death rates of scores of other countries. And this piece of cherry picking mischief is used to show what ? That "The Flu is worse than Covid. Don't worry just get out there "you'll be right". The idea of seeing what is happening elsewhere and learning from their disasters ? Nah not us. 

There is no perfect answer. We deal with the best information and the best resources  we have at the time. Right now *we know *that COVID is dangerous and becoming more dangerous as it mutates and spreads.

We *also know* that the vaccines we have will offer protection and on all the evidence to date substantially reduce the effects of an infection.


----------



## Belli (1 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Right now *we know *that COVID is dangerous and becoming more dangerous as it mutates and spreads.




For those who falsely claim influenza is no worse than flue and deaths for flu are greater will they be so kind enough to post comparable data along these lines in regard to Covid where flu cases required as much as or greater than 31% of ICU beds and acconted for 14% of occupied hospital beds.


----------



## rederob (1 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> But being told to die because you want to wait a bit before possibly getting a Vax is okay, right @basilio?



Comments like these are symptomatic of the irrational thoughts of those who can't work out how serious the threat of covid is in our communities.
Aside from the fact that nobody is *being told to die* as @wayneL suggests, the only reason to wait for a jab is if there are reasons that warrant a delay.
Whether or not we agree with the National Cabinet plan to open our economy, it is dependent on achieving at least 70% full vaccination rates as quickly as possible.  In that regard each and every one of us can contribute to this outcome.
The anecdotal evidence suggest that those publicly protesting for their "freedom" are often drawn from either the antivaxxer, conspiracy theory,  or "it's just like the flu" camps.  The sad irony is that these same people will push back the dates for reducing lockdowns and restrictions.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Nothing like* cheery picking * and* diversion *to support an insupportable argument is there ?
> 
> I post about the poisonous insanity of (some ?) antivaxxers accusing a young  COVID sick girl of being "a stooge, a liar and a paid actress."
> Her take home home message is *"Please get vaccinated because this virus is real and dangerous"*.
> ...



Well, there are certainly some d¹ckheads for sure, bas.

But you are building a certain narrative and it needs to be balanced out by pointing out there is similar acrimony towards the hesitant.

D1ckheads will be d1ckheads, there are nutters at both ends of the spectrum.

my position as I have stated numerous times has never been anti-vax but rather I just would like to wait till there is more longer-term data "for my safety".

For this my inbox is full of people wishing me dead and actual death threats (not credible cos they don't have my details, but still)... among other vile insults.


----------



## Belli (1 September 2021)

For those who are interested, on 28 August 2021, the ABS has release provisional mortality data for the period Jan 2020 to May 2021









						Provisional Mortality Statistics, Jan - Jun 2022
					

Provisional deaths data for measuring changes in patterns of mortality




					www.abs.gov.au
				




The graph below provides a visual for those who may have issues with comprehension or prefer to obtain information from unreliable sources.


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2021)

One way or the other people end up with t- cells. So long as people know the risks involved, it should be up to them if they want to be vaccinated and at what stage. 

I think we will reach 70% nsw easily. And we are the more 'right' leaning state.


----------



## basilio (1 September 2021)

> wayneL said:
> 
> 
> But being told to die because you want to wait a bit before possibly getting a Vax is okay, right @basilio?



Comments like these are symptomatic of the irrational thoughts of those who can't work out how serious the threat of covid is in our communities.

Probably worth checking out Tyler Bradleys Twitter page.  Explains  a lot.


			https://twitter.com/Bradley93038424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1432486340734570497%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2021)

Belli said:


> For those who are interested, on 28 August 2021, the ABS has release provisional mortality data for the period Jan 2020 to May 2021
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That chart is blown out from Melbourne deaths. Delta is not as high mortality at this stage.


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

Underlying health condition and covid death....like having cancer and getting hit by a bus


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> One way or the other people end up with t- cells. So long as people know the risks involved, it should be up to them if they want to be vaccinated and at what stage.
> 
> I think we will reach 70% nsw easily. And we are the more 'right' leaning state.



70% of what?


----------



## basilio (1 September 2021)

I thought this story offered an excellent insight into the anti-vax, anti mask, anti Dan Andrews campaign. 









						How an anti-mask firebrand fans the right's flames against Dan Andrews online
					

Monica Smit’s campaigning Reignite Democracy website has attracted conservative MPs’ interest and used mainstream media to amplify its message




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Underlying health condition and covid death....like having cancer and getting hit by a bus



Yes, above scenario is another easily preventable covid statistic. If only they vaxed earlier.


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> 70% of what?



Of not giving a sht.

Vaxxed


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Of not giving a sht.
> 
> Vaxxed



Prety much sums up the attitude that led to long term lockdown
What happened to the gold standard tracers you were chest beating about?


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Yes, above scenario is another easily preventable covid statistic. If only they vaxed earlier.



Yes if only they were available....you libs have f....d this


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Comments like these are symptomatic of the irrational thoughts of those who can't work out how serious the threat of covid is in our communities.
> 
> Probably worth checking out Tyler Bradleys Twitter page.  Explains  a lot.
> 
> ...



The stats are everywhere bro, it is easy to work out and it ain't the bubonic plague.


----------



## rederob (1 September 2021)

Belli said:


> For those who are interested, on 28 August 2021, the ABS has release provisional mortality data for the period Jan 2020 to May 2021
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What your chart does not show is that the 2020-21 increase over the 2015-19 range is due to much higher numbers of deaths due to cancer, diabetes, and dementia.  Moreover, the trend is for diabetes and dementia to increase disproportionately into the future.
It is impossible to draw any inferences that lockdowns due to covid infections have contributed to numbers of deaths.


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Prety much sums up the attitude that led to long term lockdown
> What happened to the gold standard tracers you were chest beating about?



The rest of you states will be in and out of lockdowns for years with a zero strategy. Through not giving a sht we will have international travel by November.

We are the Gold Standard in not giving a sht.


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Yes if only they were available....you libs have f....d this



Plenty of astra.
And I'd argue astra is better than pfizer.


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> The rest of you states will be in and out of lockdowns for years with a zero strategy. Through not giving a sht we will have international travel by November.
> 
> We are the Gold Standard in not giving a sht.



So will you when the hospitals are over run 
The 70% was worked on low case numbers and tracing....cant believe you of all people are believing the news


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> So will you when the hospitals are over run
> The 70% was worked on low case numbers and tracing....cant believe you of all people are believing the news



I can't believe you of all people think I'm not just sht posting. 

Are you alright?
Never seen you take it seriously before


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> I can't believe you of all people think I'm not just sht posting.
> 
> Are you alright?
> Never seen you take it seriously before



One of us is in lockdown.....


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

Ono







Humid said:


> One of us is in lockdown.....



For now.

McStalin must be getting wood by now for the next lock down here.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 September 2021)

Is it any wonder a whole bunch of people will not take notice of the health advice given out.
The actual statements behind the advice are rarely made public, the Governments or their spokespersons merely say the they have "best health advice".
But when they do, its just as often junk.
From Todays OZ


> Victorian Chief Health Officer *Brett Sutton* says modelling undertaken by the Burnet Institute shows the state's lockdown had avoided 6000 cases, including 1700 on Wednesday alone.



What absolute  crap. He has no way of knowing this. They don't put out what assumptions were made, what inputs were used, nor their statistical level of confidence in the output. And the really  crappy part is there is absolutely no way of verifying or testing the models output. Its in the past, cannot be replicated, cannot be verified.  they could have pulled the figures out of a hat and it would have just as much validity.
At least in the case of the Doherty models, it may be possible to assess their levels of accuracy if the feds decide to follow the path. that was modelled.
Mick


----------



## rederob (1 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> What absolute  crap. He has no way of knowing this.



His comments are based off the Burnett Institutes COVASIM model, so Sutton has a sound basis for his comments.


mullokintyre said:


> They don't put out what assumptions were made, what inputs were used, nor their statistical level of confidence in the output. And the really  crappy part is there is absolutely no way of verifying or testing the models output.



They do, actually.







mullokintyre said:


> Its in the past, cannot be replicated, cannot be verified.



Do you understand the purpose of a model?


----------



## basilio (1 September 2021)

So  now Victoria and no doubt NSW are just fighting to  keep COVID from getting completely out of control before widespread vaccination happens.

V_ictoria's tough sixth lockdown has been extended again after recording its highest daily case increase in more than a year._

*In a major shift in the approach to restrictions, Premier Daniel Andrews conceded the spread of the Delta coronavirus variant was moving too quickly to realistically eliminate it in the state.*
_There will be some small changes from Friday in Melbourne and a slight easing of restrictions in regional Victoria from next week.

*But freedoms beyond that will no longer just be hinged on the number of infections, with vaccination now the only way out of lockdown.*_









						How the next few months of lockdown are likely to play out in Victoria
					

There will be some small changes from Friday in Melbourne and a slight easing of restrictions in regional Victoria from next week. But further freedoms all depend on vaccination.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> One of us is in lockdown.....



If you mean 'mentally' then yes I'm concerned for you. You need me to send Gladdy Bjiggles round to cheer your state up?


----------



## moXJO (1 September 2021)

basilio said:


> So  now Victoria and no doubt NSW are just fighting to  keep COVID from getting completely out of control before widespread vaccination happens.
> 
> V_ictoria's tough sixth lockdown has been extended again after recording its highest daily case increase in more than a year._
> 
> ...



Vic did everything right. So obviously I was wrong about relaxed lockdowns and hard lockdowns. Noticed the media has been quiet regarding length of lockdowns now.

My sons workplace had a covid positive truck driver turn up so now that's become a thing. 

Biggest worry is hospitalisations. There's a lot of infections right now taking up beds. But it's pretty positive feel around the place as we seem to be on track to open after 70% vax.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 September 2021)

rederob said:


> His comments are based off the Burnett Institutes COVASIM model, so Sutton has a sound basis for his comments.
> 
> They do, actually.



It does not matter who or what model he based it on, its  a crap conclusion.
The pretence is that the model has any validity in predicting what would have happened if something was not done.
From the burnet website you quoted 


> The results are based on a collection of model assumptions about the contacts of individuals and disease transmission dynamics . If these best-estimate assumptions are optimistic or pessimistic, then compared with these projections actual epidemic outcomes will be more optimistic or pessimistic respectively.



So then they go onto say 


> *One scenario* created by Burnet Institute Head of Modelling, Dr Nick Scott and colleagues assumed a 50 per cent vaccine efficacy in preventing infections and a 93 per cent efficacy at preventing deaths among people who did become infected; a virus which was 1.5 times as infectious as the one in Victoria in June-November 2020; and where 80 per cent of people aged over 60 and 70 per cent of people younger than 60 years of age were eventually vaccinated.
> 
> “We found that if the virus enters the community when 60 per cent vaccine coverage has been reached and is left unchecked, we could see 4,885 deaths in Victoria within a year if no public health responses are introduced,” Dr Scott said.



So they picked out one run of the model. No mention of the values of those parameters,  just that they used them. 
If you recon thats telling  what inputs created the output, you are being disingenuous to say the least.


rederob said:


> Do you understand the purpose of a model?



You have a supercilious attitude to anyone who you may disagree with.
The arrogant put down question that suggests you have a greater level of intelligence and understanding than the other mere mortals that inhabit this space.
I doubt you have any idea of the breadth and meaning of models.
There are models and there are models.
I can model the  behaviour  of a circuit design with great accuracy.
But that is because I know beforehand the relationships between all the inputs that go into the design and operation.
And whats more, I can then have that design prinnted onto a CB and can hen test and verify that what I modelled was indeed correct.

The models that have a multiple unknown variables, and multiple values on the affect that changes in the variables have on the output become more and more guesswork.  And  like so many models, there is no way of verifying the validity of its assumptions. Hence their value is nothing more as scare tactic for the masses, and I suspect that at unlike you, some of the masses will see the models for what they are.

Mick


----------



## rederob (1 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> You have a supercilious attitude to anyone who you may disagree with.



You made claims which are contradicted by evidence, and I pointed this out.


mullokintyre said:


> The arrogant put down question that suggests you have a greater level of intelligence and understanding than the other mere mortals that inhabit this space.



I was writing basic modelling programs on my HP 41CV in the early 1980s so I have some relevant background in this area.


mullokintyre said:


> And whats more, I can then have that design prinnted onto a CB and can hen test and verify that what I modelled was indeed correct.



Burnett Institute's modelling is indicative rather than prescriptive.  The inviolable principles of current and voltage necessary for IC simulations are replaced by the rangebound parameters of variables that are essentially uncertain.  
Your claims about the underlying assumptions of Burnett modelling are unsound.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 September 2021)

rederob said:


> You made claims which are contradicted by evidence, and I pointed this out.



Yeah right. You just make a statement that says I am wrong and you are right.


rederob said:


> I was writing basic modelling programs on my HP 41CV in the early 1980s so I have some relevant background in this area.



Big deal. So was I, but I had a large mainframe to play with.
And I started back in the early 70's . 
But neither of your modelling experience  nor mine makes any difference.
It does not change the fact that not all models are equal.



rederob said:


> Burnett Institute's modelling is indicative rather than prescriptive.  The inviolable principles of current and voltage necessary for IC simulations are replaced by the rangebound parameters of variables that are essentially uncertain.
> Your claims about the underlying assumptions of Burnett modelling are unsound.



Garbage. You are trying to make a pig out of a sows ear.
The fact that the rangebound parameters of variables  are uncertain says that the output is uncertain.
You have stated exactly why I distrust so many models.
The document you quoted does not even mention what the variables were, what were the rangebound values, nor what level of weighting was put on each one. 
I am sure when you were programming your Hewlett Packard  41CV you would have been made aware of the   abbreviation GIGO.
Garbage in, garbage out.

Sutton never mentioned prescriptive versus indicative.
 He stated it as if it was gospel, which was my original premise.
Namely he used questionable outputs to pretend that it would have really happened, when  it was not a conclusion to be drawn.
Using the politics of fear to keep people under the thumb.
Whether people should be locked down is for another discussion.
To pretend that "the Science" suggests they should is tantamount to fraud.

Mick


----------



## rederob (1 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> It does not change the fact that not all models are equal.



This only confirms you do not understand modelling.


mullokintyre said:


> The fact that the rangebound parameters of variables  are uncertain says that the output is uncertain.



That's right.
We are not dealing with inviolable variables; uncertainty bars are charted in my earlier post


mullokintyre said:


> You have stated exactly why I distrust so many models.



The most complex models in the world (earth system models) deal with uncertainties and their simulations continue to prove they are on track.


mullokintyre said:


> The document you quoted does not even mention what the variables were, what were the rangebound values, nor what level of weighting was put on each one.



This only shows how unsound your posts have been.


mullokintyre said:


> Sutton never mentioned prescriptive versus indicative.
> He stated it as if it was gospel, which was my original premise.



If the unemployment rate is 6.1% it's indicative.  Nobody went out and counted everyone.  Yet the relevant Minister will quote it as gospel!   Sutton clearly said his numbers were based on a *model*.


mullokintyre said:


> Namely he used questionable outputs to pretend that it would have really happened, when  it was not a conclusion to be drawn.



If you examined the modelling and understood it then you would have found Sutton was drawing a reasonable conclusion.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 September 2021)

rederob said:


> This only confirms you do not understand modelling.



Says you. I think it highlights that you have no understanding of modelling.
My premise is just as valid as yours.


rederob said:


> That's right.
> We are not dealing with inviolable variables; uncertainty bars are charted in my earlier post



You edited the post and stuck those two graphs in after my post.
Very sneaky.
And did you look at the uncertainty bars?
For some of them there is a 50% uncertainty level.
Any conclusions drawn from them a fraught with danger.
To take your own supercilious attitude, Do you even know how to read the uncertainty bars in the graph?



rederob said:


> The most complex models in the world (earth system models) deal with uncertainties and their simulations continue to prove they are on track.



Another irrelevant comment.


rederob said:


> This only shows how unsound your posts have been.



And once again it shows your complete arrogance


rederob said:


> If the unemployment rate is 6.1% it's indicative.  Nobody went out and counted everyone.  Yet the relevant Minister will quote it as gospel!   Sutton clearly said his numbers were based on a *model*.



Another straw man argument.
I never said Sutton did not say it was not based on a model..
If you bothered to read my original comment, I stated it was BECAUSE he said it was based on modelling that I took umbrage.


rederob said:


> If you examined the modelling and understood it then you would have found Sutton was drawing a reasonable conclusion.



If you were not such an arrogant know it all, you might possibly understand that people can have valid opinions  that do not concur with yours. 
And I have my doubts that despite your arrogant attitude, I don't think you really understand modelling at all.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

You have to love how the media throws up information, yet don't take the time to make it easily sorted for the plebs.
The ABC making it easy for the plebs to understand.








						We put your questions about coronavirus vaccines to health experts — here's what they said
					

We put your questions to ABC medical reporter Sophie Scott and epidemiologist Hassan Vally from Latrobe University. Here are five of the best.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
_You are more likely to get a blood clot from the combined contraceptive pill.

Blood clots caused by the pill have been estimated to affect around 1 in 1,000 women.

Whereas your risk of getting the clotting disorder from the AZ vaccine is around 4 in 1 million.

But it's the fatality rate that really differs.

With the combined oral contraceptive pill, your risk of dying from a blood clot has been estimated to be around 3 per cent.

But the fatality rate from people who develop the rare clotting disorder after getting the AZ vaccine is estimated to be around 25 per cent.

The reasons the death rates differ so much is that the clots formed by the vaccine are believed to be an immune response to the vaccine, and is not the same process in the body that can cause other more common clots like deep vein thrombosis_.


Why don't they just say 30 : 1,000,000 die from pill related clots and 1 : 1,000,000 die from AZ related clots. Obviously 3%  of people dying sounds a lot less of a problem than 25% of people dying, why can't they compare apples with apples.
Obviously there is a reason, it just escapes me, maybe someone can help.


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You have to love how the media throws up information, yet don't take the time to make it easily sorted for the plebs.
> The ABC making it easy for the plebs to understand.
> 
> 
> ...



Plebs like you waiting for the fizzer?


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Plebs like you waiting for the fizzer?



We've already been through all that, you must have been away. 🤣
My vax will probably get me into the middle of next year, you will be on you're 3rd pfizer by then, they will probably have some good data by then so all good.


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Ono
> For now.
> 
> McStalin must be getting wood by now for the next lock down here.



Get a job in mining man .....never stopped
You can swing a big hammer ....walk up start


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> We've already been through all that, you must have been away. 🤣



Like scummo you cant retract


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Like scummo you cant retract



Sounds as though you FIFO's,  have more of a problem with that issue. 🤣

The Libs have a problem retracting, whereas Labor have a problem getting in. 🤣  🤣


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> If you mean 'mentally' then yes I'm concerned for you. You need me to send Gladdy Bjiggles round to cheer your state up?



No I mean you could of moved here like Wayno and continued your rant from a non rampant state


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds as though you FIFO's,  have more of a problem with that issue. 🤣
> 
> The Libs have a problem retracting, whereas Labor have a problem getting in. 🤣  🤣



I only have a tax problem from full employment.....can you remember that


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> I only have a tax problem from full employment.....can you remember that



No it was a long time ago, still miss the banter and pizz taking.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

Innerestin'


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Get a job in mining man .....never stopped
> You can swing a big hammer ....walk up start



Like hookers, we are essential workers 

Haven't missed a day of work here or even over in palechookland.


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Innerestin'




Oh dear god your using Rod Culleton
Welcome home fruit loop


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Oh dear god your using Rod Culleton
> Welcome home fruit loop











						Pete Evans confirms run for politics
					

Pete Evans has announced he will join politics and run for the Senate with former One Nation senator Rod Culleton’s The Great Australian Party.




					www.news.com.au
				




Can we expect stuff from Pete too


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Oh dear god your using Rod Culleton
> Welcome home fruit loop



Never actually heard of him, just saw it on my timeline. We all know the spinless courts won't want to play, but I hope he just gives them some sh¹t, whatever flavour of fruit loop.


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Never actually heard of him, just saw it on my timeline. We all know the spinless courts won't want to play, but I hope he just gives them some sh¹t, whatever flavour of fruit loop.





Its there for a reason.....get a new name its like Netflix and the algorithm he found you because of you


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

Yes Wayne, change your name to sweaty, it works for humid. 🤣


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Its there for a reason.....get a new name its like Netflix and the algorithm he found you because of you



Nope, retweet.

But anyhooz, enlighten me regarding his fruit loopiness. Ackshilly, I prefer fruit loops to Stalin pretenders, TBH


----------



## Humid (1 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Never actually heard of him, just saw it on my timeline. We all know the spinless courts won't want to play, but I hope he just gives them some sh¹t, whatever flavour of fruit loop.



So how many times do you post this stuff you just found on your timeline....my perspiring obese mate want to know?


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

Humid said:


> So how many times do you post this stuff you just found on your timeline....my perspiring obese mate want to know?



All the time bro. Then see if the resident ASF fact-checkers can debunk. Then I fact check the fact-checkers to see if the debunking can be debunked. It's a bit like the PCR test... 45 repetitions of fact-checking and debunking until nobody knows what the fark the truth is.


----------



## wayneL (1 September 2021)

Even more fruitloopery:









						Ohio Judge Orders Hospital to Treat Ventilated COVID-19 Patient With Ivermectin
					

In Ohio, a Butler County judge ordered a hospital to administer Ivermectin to a COVID-19 patient, granting an emergency relief filed by the patient’s wife.




					m.theepochtimes.com


----------



## Joules MM1 (1 September 2021)

GISAID - Initiative
		






						auspice
					






					nextstrain.org
				




if my understanding of the below tweets is correct the genomic sequence database equals all the required steps to disaggregate the strains


Thanks to #opendata sharing via @GISAID, we've updated http://nextstrain.org/ncov/gisaid with 561756 new #COVID19 #SARSCoV2 *sequences* during the last month!





Michael Z. David, MD, PhD

@MichaelDavid8
8m

Wow!


----------



## Joules MM1 (1 September 2021)

Julian

@TraderJazzHands
·
26m

Replying to 
@MichaelDavid80
hi, Michael. Respectfully, please expand on "wow"






Michael Z. David, MD, PhD

@MichaelDavid80
·
1m

Replying to 
@TraderJazzHands
>500,000 genome sequences added in 1 month is an enormous number to add. Sequencing has accelerated as a public health tool during the pandemic at a stunning rate.


----------



## Joules MM1 (1 September 2021)




----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


>




Wont be long and we will be able to sort it, by just using crop dusters doing flyovers, it's amazing how fast technology is filling the void.


----------



## rederob (2 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Says you. I think it highlights that you have no understanding of modelling.
> My premise is just as valid as yours.



Whatever modelling you did in the past has zero relationship to present health models which are indicative.  For you to think otherwise is self deception.  So your premise is not at all valid.


mullokintyre said:


> You edited the post and stuck those two graphs in after my post.



I linked to the COVASIM model.  You can ask the Burnett Institute for their excel version and run whatever scenario you want from it. You didn't bother to follow to the links and want to stick with your unsound claims.


mullokintyre said:


> I never said Sutton did not say it was not based on a model..
> If you bothered to read my original comment, I stated it was BECAUSE he said it was based on modelling that I took umbrage.



And here you are posting on a model you took no time to investigate or understand.
Here's the US State of Indiana's covid positive chart:




Indiana has the same population as Victoria but over twice the number of fully vaccinated people.  In 5 weeks the case count rose from the hundreds to around 5k.  That's what is happening in the real world, and that's what models are showing as likely trajectories without mitigation measures.


mullokintyre said:


> If you were not such an arrogant know it all, you might possibly understand that people can have valid opinions  that do not concur with yours.



I have never cared for baseless opinions so my comments are based on what you claimed and that is contradicted by real world evidence.


----------



## rederob (2 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Wont be long and we will be able to sort it, by just using crop dusters doing flyovers, it's amazing how fast technology is filling the void.



This is about a *treatment *drug and not a vaccine.
The downside is that to use it you first have to catch covid.
At least with the vaccine you stand a chance of not needing the drug.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2021)

Just on a personal note, but I found it curious. My mother 90 years old had both doses of AZ no issue, but she has never smoked or taken alcohol. 
The mother in law 89 had second dose of of AZ, a few days later had to go to the doctor diagnosed with pneumonia, 2 courses of antibiotics, but wasn't hospitalised, she used to smoke underlying emphysema and was a regular drinker.
The wife has a slight asthma condition (coughs when excercising) and had a reaction to AZ, nothing serious just the sore joints flu symptoms etc.
A friend 65 same as me still working, smoked until recently, has the early stages of emphysema (doesn't realise it yet), had the AZ first shot week before last, last week had to take 3 days off work due to chest infection.
I had AZ no issue and I don't have any underlying respiratory problems, that I know of.
I know it is a small group, but it would indicate that if someone has an underlying respiratory issue, they may have a slight reaction to the AZ jab. Just my opinion.


----------



## noirua (2 September 2021)

__





						Former anti-masker shares plea from hospital bed after contracting Covid
					





					www.msn.com
				



Former anti-masker shares plea from hospital bed after contracting Covid​


----------



## Humid (2 September 2021)

NSW is on target to reach 8928 new daily Covid cases by the 7th of October with hospitals overrun
					

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian has admitted that October is predicted to be the worst month for NSW's Covid crisis. But Berejiklian refused multiple times at the media briefing on Wednesday (1/9/21) to reveal the estimated figures for the number of daily Covid cases and hospitalisations etc for...




					kangaroocourtofaustralia.com
				




I hope this blokes wrong!


----------



## mullokintyre (2 September 2021)

rederob said:


> Whatever modelling you did in the past has zero relationship to present health models which are indicative.  For you to think otherwise is self deception.  So your premise is not at all valid.



You were the first one to bring up your past expertise  of modelling on a glorified calculator pal, not me.
Self deception? Pot. Kettle. Black.



rederob said:


> I linked to the COVASIM model.  You can ask the Burnett Institute for their excel version and run whatever scenario you want from it. You didn't bother to follow to the links and want to stick with your unsound claims.



Unsound claims. Look in the mirror.


rederob said:


> And here you are posting on a model you took no time to investigate or understand.
> Here's the US State of Indiana's covid positive chart:
> View attachment 129746
> 
> Indiana has the same population as Victoria but over twice the number of fully vaccinated people.  In 5 weeks the case count rose from the hundreds to around 5k.  That's what is happening in the real world, and that's what models are showing as likely trajectories without mitigation measures.



So what has that got to do with modelling?
Are you saying its a model of the daily cases? Or is it actual data.
Unless the model can hindcast what actually happened, then its no better than a random number generator.
Show me the model that produced something like the above BEFORE the time frame, then I MIGHT accept the model was useful



rederob said:


> I have never cared for baseless opinions so my comments are based on what you claimed and that is contradicted by real world evidence.



I am sick and tired of your arrogant know it all attitude.
from the very first post i made here, you have just taken a contradictory position, and accuse me of unsound arguments, baseless opinions , indeed everything you do yourself. You are so lacking in self awareness you don't seem to realise your own contradictions.
Your nothing better than a troll,  I am not going to waste my time with  responding to you.
You can post as much abuse as you like, but thats it, you will get nothing further from me.


----------



## rederob (2 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> So what has that got to do with modelling?
> Are you saying its a model of the daily cases? Or is it actual data.



You continue to display a poor understanding of the model Sutton referred to, and just dig yourself into a deeper hole.


mullokintyre said:


> Your nothing better than a troll,  I am not going to waste my time with  responding to you.



Deal with the topic and stop playing the man, as you have done in most of your replies to me.
The Indiana chart is indicative of the model outcomes that would be derived from running Burnett simulations.  When real world evidence proves a case then your idea of hindcasting is redundant.


----------



## wayneL (2 September 2021)

Ruh roh


----------



## moXJO (2 September 2021)

Humid said:


> No I mean you could of moved here like Wayno and continued your rant from a non rampant state



Nsw is boring enough without moving back into the stone age that is WA. I'll take my risks with the 'outbreak state'.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Nsw is boring enough without moving back into the stone age that is WA. I'll take my risks with the 'outbreak state'.



Like we said on the forum a long time ago people have choices, eventually everyone will get the virus that IMO is a given.
Whether you want to just get the virus naturally and develop immunity, or prefer to take the vaccination before contracting the virus, is a personal choice IMO.
People should be allowed to do that and accept the risk, they pay taxes, they have access to medicare, if required.
Why do people make such a big issue of it, at the end of the day it will be self resolving, those who want the vaccine will have it those who don't wont.
What I find difficult to deal with, is people trying to bully other people into submission, they have a right to their beliefs and their risks, the same as the ones who are having the vaccine.
As has been proven supply of vaccine isn't the issue, hesitancy is the issue, who caused the hesitancy? Well I can't say, because I'm apparently obsessed.


----------



## mullokintyre (2 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Ruh roh




Someone at the Age must have been adversely affected by the lockdown.
Pity it took them so long.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Someone at the Age must have been adversely affected by the lockdown.
> Pity it took them so long.
> Mick



Yes you don't often see them saying anything negative against labor, which is o.k, it adds some balance to News corp, who are pro whoever they think is winning. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2021)

Obviously there is even a degree of hesitancy in the Queensland police force, the Government is going to push mandatory jabs.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/mandatory-jabs-qld-police-075616230.html


----------



## mullokintyre (3 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What I find difficult to deal with, is people trying to bully other people into submission, they have a right to their beliefs and their risks, the same as the ones who are having the vaccine.



And yet at the same time, the  Gold Coast family that "secretly" drove to Melbourne and back then refused to be tested could not be coerced into getting tested.  I bet those kids who 'self reported" when they told their friends at school where they had been are gunna get a fair hiding once the parents get them back home away from the spotlight.
The various govts happy to come down on protesters though. 
The balance just ain't there.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (3 September 2021)

Pfizer looking to make a few more squillions.
Pfizer Daily Oral Trials


> Pfizer  Inc.  (NYSEFE)  today  shared  that  the  first  participant  has been  dosed  in  a  pivotal  Phase  2/3  clinical  trial  to  evaluate  the  safety  and  efficacy  of  PF-07321332  –  an investigational  orally  administered  protease  inhibitor  antiviral  therapy  designed  specifically  to  combat COVID-19  –  in  non-hospitalized,  symptomatic  adult  participants  who  have  a  confirmed  diagnosis  of  SARSCoV-2  infection  and  are  not  at  increased  risk  of  progressing  to  severe  illness,  which  may  lead  to hospitalization  or  death.    The  randomized,  double-blind  trial  will  enroll  approximately  1,140  participants,  who  will  receive  PF07321332/ritonavir  or  placebo  orally  every  12  hours  for  five  days.   Protease  inhibitors,  like  PF-07321332,  are  designed  to  block  the  activity  of  the  main  protease  enzyme  that the  coronavirus  needs  to  replicate.  Co-administration  with  a  low  dose  of  ritonavir  is  expected  to  help  slow the  metabolism,  or  breakdown,  of  PF-07321332  in  order  for  it  to  remain  in  the  body  for  longer  periods  of time  at  higher  concentrations,  thereby  working  continuously  to  help  combat  the  virus.  Ritonavir  has previously  been  used  in  combination  with  other  antivirals  to  similarly  inhibit  metabolism.



Given the infection rate in US, they should not have any difficulty in getting volunteers to participate in the trial.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

Interesting watching the mountaintop finish, at the La Vuelta cycle race in Spain, last night. 
Heaps of spectators and none wearing masks, the only people wearing masks, were the officials and the police, none of the general public were.


----------



## basilio (3 September 2021)

Victoria  is seeing new COVID cases rise exponentially.  The geni is  well and truly out.
*Monday 73,  Tuesday 119, Wednesday 176, Thursday 208. *And most of the cases are now coming from people in the community not in quarantine.

As of last night, there were 61 COVID-19 patients in Victorian hospitals, including 20 in intensive care, with 13 of those people on ventilators.









						Unvaccinated Victorians could be locked out of events, Andrews flags
					

The Premier says planning is well underway to trial outdoor events and venues for vaccinated people only, as Victoria's cases continue to climb.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

NSW is seeing vaccine hesitance, overtaken by a rush to get vaccinated, amazing how much of a motivator fear is. As soon as the Delta variant hits W.A I'm sure there will be a rush, I know one of my daughters is booking in this week, due to all the NSW, Vic news coverage.




__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				



From the article:
NSW has recorded another 1431 new Covid-19 cases and 12 deaths, with expert modelling predicting the worst is yet to come.
But there were some signs of hope with Premier Gladys Berejiklian revealing at least *120,000 more people got vaccinated in the last 24 hours.*

“*In the past week more than 827,000 people in NSW have come forward to get vaccinated,*” the Premier said.


----------



## IFocus (3 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Nsw is boring enough without moving back into the stone age that is WA. I'll take my risks with the 'outbreak state'.




Living in caves over here is really good fun... we can visit each others cave any time we like.

Mean while we keep the mining / oil and gas going (COVID free, one case and its over) paying for the mess on the eastern sea board.  

AS SP alluded to its going to get messy when COVID gets going here with the eastern states taking all the vaccines.


----------



## wabullfrog (3 September 2021)

Another vaccine swap, this time with UK for 4 million doses of Pfizer to arrive in the next day or so.









						'The plane is on the tarmac now': UK to send 4 million Pfizer doses to Australia
					

Australia secures another 4 million doses of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine, in a deal with the UK that Prime Minister Scott Morrison says will enable the country to reopen sooner.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Someone at the Age must have been adversely affected by the lockdown.
> Pity it took them so long.
> Mick











						The Age demeans itself as well as the Victorian public health team - Pearls and Irritations
					

The most disturbing aspect of The Age’s disappointing editorial yesterday is its undermining of the state’s public health messaging and compliance efforts. Yesterday The Age published a provocative editorial, “Victoria cannot go on like this”, which many saw as undermining the Victorian...




					johnmenadue.com


----------



## wayneL (3 September 2021)

An example of how other countries see the COVID response here in the Union of Soviet Socialist States of Australia:

”Australia has turned into a draconian police state... some of the insane things happening there.

1. They are building quarantine camps.

2. They deployed the army to patrol the streets to lock people inside their homes.

3. Unarmed civilians shot with rubber bullets for protesting the government.

4. Children tear gassed by police for being in the protests.

5. Citizens to be forced to download an app with facial recognition and location tracking. Police will require you to send photos of yourself randomly to prove your whereabouts.

If you don't reply within 15 minutes, police will knock on your door.

6. A new surveillance law allows police to DELETE and modify files on your device and take over social media accounts without a judges warrant.

7. Mothers were fined $1000 for talking with each other outdoors.

8. A man was jailed for 8 months for organizing a protest against the government. He was arrested and sentenced in only 24 hours.

9. Police have emergency powers to:

- Break into any land, building or vehicle with any force necessary

- Order people undergo medical exams, tests or treatments.

- Prohibit people's movement.

- Put people in quarantine.

- Force people to give info.

10. Police patrolling childrens playgrounds to make sure kids aren't playing.

11. Don't like any of this? Citizens aren't even allowed to leave the country.

Please share this. People need to know what's happening.

If it can happen there, it can happen here too."

From @PeterSweden7


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> An example of how other countries see the COVID response here in the Union of Soviet Socialist States of Australia:
> 
> ”Australia has turned into a draconian police state... some of the insane things happening there.
> 
> ...



Culleton now this bloke









						Swedish journalist lambasted for posting bizarre defence of 'white men'
					

The London Economic - Peter Imanuelsen said white privilege is a racist myth and male privilege is a sexist myth. - Media




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## wayneL (3 September 2021)

What's your point Humid? Do you have actually any *intelligent counterpoints to anything he has said?


----------



## IFocus (3 September 2021)

Humid said:


> The Age demeans itself as well as the Victorian public health team - Pearls and Irritations
> 
> 
> The most disturbing aspect of The Age’s disappointing editorial yesterday is its undermining of the state’s public health messaging and compliance efforts. Yesterday The Age published a provocative editorial, “Victoria cannot go on like this”, which many saw as undermining the Victorian...
> ...





This bit

_"The Age_ criticises the Victorian government for a lack of information, however by comparison with the NSW premier, Victoria is the gold standard. For example,* NSW stopped providing details of its daily Covid numbers weeks ago. The NSW premier peremptorily ends her news conferences when she feels like it, even in mid-question and with journalists wanting more*. Victorians have become accustomed to watching with some astonishment as Daniel Andrews has responded to every question journalists want to ask, at times for more than two hours."


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> What's your point Humid? Do you have actually any *intelligent counterpoints to anything he has said?



The point was the fruit loops you follow on twatter


----------



## wayneL (3 September 2021)

Humid said:


> The point was the fruit loops you follow on twatter



Fruitloopery is a subjective assessment, I'm after objectivism, which seems to be beyond you.


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Fruitloopery is a subjective assessment, I'm after objectivism, which seems to be beyond you.



It's all about motive


----------



## wayneL (3 September 2021)

Humid said:


> It's all about motive





Humid said:


> It's all about motive



No, bro. It's about facts. Nothing our Swedish friend has said can be disputed.

You rely on unwarranted disparagement and ad hominem and refuse to step up with any sort of objective argument.


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> No, bro. It's about facts. Nothing our Swedish friend has said can be disputed.
> 
> You rely on unwarranted disparagement and ad hominem and refuse to step up with any sort of objective argument.



Ok I'll bite
Tell me about the facial recognition


----------



## wayneL (3 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Ok I'll bite
> Tell me about the facial recognition







__





						south australia facial recognition - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So at best a trial yet to happen picked up by a Swede on social media.....got any more?


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

Lrts try number 1 Mr Newman
Building quarantine camps......like the one they use in Darwin?
Where we all stayed building the gas plant,ask anyone was the best camp ever
Why not throw in using hotels as quarantine
Cherry picked a pile of rubbish and you share it.....the anti vaxx man who relies on his sister in laws advice because of a math degree
Build that bunker man


----------



## wayneL (3 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> What's your point Humid? Do you have actually any *intelligent counterpoints to anything he has said?



So I guess that's a no.


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> So I guess that's a no.



Put up crap with no context and expect people to believe
Sounds like modern journalism.....oh thats right you got it from a boxhead journo


----------



## DB008 (3 September 2021)

Interesting


Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine —​but vaccination remains vital​

Israelis who had an infection were more protected against the Delta coronavirus variant than those who had​an already highly effective COVID-19 vaccine​

The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.​​The study demonstrates the power of the human immune system, but infectious disease experts emphasized that this vaccine and others for COVID-19 nonetheless remain highly protective against severe disease and death. And they caution that intentional infection among unvaccinated people would be extremely risky. “What we don’t want people to say is: ‘All right, I should go out and get infected, I should have an infection party,’” says Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at Rockefeller University who researches the immune response to SARS-CoV-2 and was not involved in the study. “Because somebody could die.”​​The researchers also found that people who had SARS-CoV-2 previously and received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine were more highly protected against reinfection than those who once had the virus and were still unvaccinated. The new work could inform discussion of whether previously infected people need to receive both doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine or the similar mRNA vaccine from Moderna. Vaccine mandates don’t necessarily exempt those who had a SARS-CoV-2 infection already and the current U.S. recommendation is that they be fully vaccinated, which means two mRNA doses or one of the Johnson & Johnson adenovirus-based vaccine. Yet one mRNA dose might be enough, some scientists argue. And other countries including Germany, France, Italy, and Israel administer just one vaccine dose to previously infected people.​​The study, conducted in one of the most highly COVID-19–vaccinated countries in the world, examined medical records of tens of thousands of Israelis, charting their infections, symptoms, and hospitalizations between 1 June and 14 August, when the Delta variant predominated in Israel. It’s the largest real-world observational study so far to compare natural and vaccine-induced immunity to SARS-CoV-2, according to its leaders.​​The research impresses Nussenzweig and other scientists who have reviewed a preprint of the results, posted yesterday on medRxiv. “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,” says Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute who studies the immune responses to SARS-CoV-2. “To my knowledge, it’s the first time [this] has really been shown in the context of COVID-19.”​​Still, Thålin and other researchers stress that deliberate infection among unvaccinated people would put them at significant risk of severe disease and death, or the lingering, significant symptoms of what has been dubbed Long Covid. The study shows the benefits of natural immunity, but “doesn’t take into account what this virus does to the body to get to that point,” says Marion Pepper, an immunologist at the University of Washington, Seattle. COVID-19 has already killed more than 4 million people worldwide and there are concerns that Delta and other SARS-CoV-2 variants are deadlier than the original virus.​​The new analysis relies on the database of Maccabi Healthcare Services, which enrolls about 2.5 million Israelis. The study, led by Tal Patalon and Sivan Gazit at KSM, the system’s research and innovation arm, found in two analyses that never-infected people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people who were previously infected with the coronavirus. In one analysis, comparing more than 32,000 people in the health system, the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated, and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher.​​“The differences are huge,” says Thålin, although she cautions that the numbers for infections and other events analyzed for the comparisons were “small.” For instance, the higher hospitalization rate in the 32,000-person analysis was based on just eight hospitalizations in a vaccinated group and one in a previously infected group. And the 13-fold increased risk of infection in the same analysis was based on just 238 infections in the vaccinated population, less than 1.5% of the more than 16,000 people, versus 19 reinfections among a similar number of people who once had SARS-CoV-2.​​No one in the study who got a new SARS-CoV-2 infection died—which prevented a comparison of death rates but is a clear sign that vaccines still offer a formidable shield against serious disease, even if not as good as natural immunity. Moreover, natural immunity is far from perfect. Although reinfections with SARS-CoV-2 are rare, and often asymptomatic or mild, they can be severe.​​In another analysis, the researchers compared more than 14,000 people who had a confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection and were still unvaccinated with an equivalent number of previously infected people who received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. The team found that the unvaccinated group was twice as likely to be reinfected as the singly vaccinated.​​“We continue to underestimate the importance of natural infection immunity … especially when [infection] is recent,” says Eric Topol, a physician-scientist at Scripps Research. “And when you bolster that with one dose of vaccine, you take it to levels you can’t possibly match with any vaccine in the world right now.”​​Nussenzweig says the results in previously infected, vaccinated people confirm laboratory findings from a series of papers in Nature and Immunity by his group, his Rockefeller University colleague Paul Bieniasz and others—and from a preprint posted this month by Bieniasz and his team. They show, Nussenzweig says, that the immune systems of people who develop natural immunity to SARS-CoV-2 and then get vaccinated produce exceptionally broad and potent antibodies against the coronavirus. The preprint, for example, reported that people who were previously infected and then vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine had antibodies in their blood that neutralized the infectivity of another virus, harmless to humans, that was engineered to express a version of the coronavirus spike protein that contains 20 concerning mutations. Sera from vaccinated and naturally infected people could not do so.​

More on link below...


https://www.science.org/content/art...er-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital



*New preprint data suggests prior COVID infection generates fantastic immunity.

What it means for vaccines, mandates, and more.*





.​


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

Looks like vaccine hesitancy, has gone out the window in Victoria as well:

Victoria just a fortnight from extra freedoms due to high vaccination numbers​By Craig Butt and Ashleigh McMillan​*Victoria is just a fortnight from additional freedoms, with new data showing the state is only 14 days away from reaching 70 per cent first COVID-19 doses for the eligible population.
The vaccination target could now be reached on September 18, if Victorians continue to get jabbed at the pace with which the state’s vaccine rollout has progressed over the past seven days.*

Premier Daniel Andrews announced earlier this week that some restrictions will ease in Victoria once 70 per cent of the eligible population over 16 years receive their first COVID-19 vaccine dose.
Lockdown rules including the 5km travel limit, outdoor exercise and personal training, and private real estate inspections are set to be loosened.
Health authorities said earlier this week they expected the vaccination target could be achieved by September 23.
*There were 33,511 vaccine doses administered in state-run hubs and clinics on Thursday.*


----------



## IFocus (3 September 2021)

DB008 said:


> Interesting
> 
> 
> Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine —​but vaccination remains vital​
> ...






Not surprised DB just the problem with natural selection, long COVID etc and with new variants that's maybe where we all end up.


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

What we do have to remember, is to take Australia's situation in an holistic way and compare the way it has panned out here compared to similar countries.
THIS IS DEATHS PER 1,000,000 people.
So it is not just total deaths, but deaths as represented by the population, of the country.


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What we do have to remember, is to take Australia's situation in an holistic way and compare the way it has panned out here compared to similar countries.
> THIS IS DEATHS PER 1,000,000 people.
> So it is not just total deaths, but deaths as represented by the population, of the country.
> View attachment 129834











						Japan PM Suga to resign following criticism of his Covid-19 response
					

Japan's Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga said Friday he will not run for re-election as party leader this month, effectively ending his tenure after just one year, his party's secretary general said.




					www.france24.com
				



holistic response


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Japan PM Suga to resign following criticism of his Covid-19 response
> 
> 
> Japan's Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga said Friday he will not run for re-election as party leader this month, effectively ending his tenure after just one year, his party's secretary general said.
> ...



Well if you want to start taking Japan as a lead, all the guys at Swanbourne, would be jumping on a bayonet.

Have you ever looked up Japanese politics? I know you don't get much time off, but just check up a little on your assumptions. You do know what assumptions are don't you?








						Japanese politicians brawl in parliament over bill to allow troops to fight abroad
					

MPs push and shove each other during a heated debate as 13,000 rally outside Tokyo’s parliament against proposed change to law




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Photos: Japan’s lawmakers have a fistfight over pacifism
					

Quartz is a guide to the new global economy for people in business who are excited by change. We cover business, economics, markets, finance, technology, science, design, and fashion.




					qz.com
				












						Japanese politicians brawl in parliament....in debate about pacifism
					

MPs fought over proposed legislation to allow Japanese troops to fight overseas for the first time in 70 years




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## IFocus (3 September 2021)

I don't read twitter but had this recommended 



			https://twitter.com/ProfPCDoherty


----------



## Humid (3 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well if you want to start taking Japan as a lead, all the guys at Swanbourne, would be jumping on a bayonet.
> 
> Have you ever looked up Japanese politics? I know you don't get much time off, but just check up a little on your assumptions. You do know what assumptions are don't you?
> 
> ...



I assume they still build cars


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> I don't read twitter but had this recommended
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ProfPCDoherty



Like we have said endlessly on the forum, the virus is here to stay, you can catch it with the vaccine or without the vaccine.
All the vaccine does, is reduce the effects, it's your choice.
Simple really.

This locking down to stop the virus, isn't a long term option, so people just have to make a choice.

The real problem is those who are hospitalised, become politicised, then the media have a field day.
How could you let this happen?
Why don't these people on ventilators matter?
A Government that didn't care and opened up too early.

Chook fodder, for the plebs.


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

Humid said:


> I assume they still build cars



Why? are you after a job?


----------



## DB008 (4 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> Not surprised DB just the problem with natural selection, long COVID etc and with new variants that's maybe where we all end up.




100%. Covid-19 variants will probably turn into a yearly flu jab (maybe).

The cliff notes are - just get the jab.

My 2nd Pfizer jab was back at the end of July. No issues at all. If a booster jab becomes a thing (prefer Moderna or Johnson & Johnson), l'd get it right now. I think the biggest issue in Australia is the lack of supply. The Federal Government should also have the capability to make mRNA vaccine, we as a nation are exposed if we don't have that capability (compare the Chinese vaccine (Sinovac) effectiveness (65.9%, 90.3% for hospitalisation) to Pfizer/Moderna (90%)). 


Sinovac - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107715







.​


----------



## IFocus (4 September 2021)

DB008 said:


> 100%. Covid-19 variants will probably turn into a yearly flu jab (maybe).
> 
> The cliff notes are - just get the jab.
> 
> ...






Agree 110%


----------



## Humid (4 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Why? are you after a job?



You might need one when winter returns to the north


----------



## Humid (4 September 2021)

Has anyone heard from Tassie and South Oz?


----------



## moXJO (4 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Has anyone heard from Tassie and South Oz?



Probably watching on as Vic's ring of steel rusts and buckles.


----------



## Humid (4 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Probably watching on as Vic's ring of steel rusts and buckles.



The irony.....excuse the pun


----------



## basilio (5 September 2021)

The stress  on hospitals of sick unvaccinated COVID patients in Oklahoma is been exacerbated by a steep rise in poisonings from people taking imvermetcin. 
It has now reached the stage where hospitals can't even treat the patients who present with gunshot wounds...

Oklahoma hospitals deluged by ivermectin overdoses, doctor says​Jason McElyea says people overdosing on anti-parasitic drug that some people believe without evidence can cure or treat Covid

... “The [emergency rooms] are so backed up that gunshot victims were having hard times getting to facilities where they can get definitive care and be treated.

“Ambulances are stuck at the hospital waiting for a bed to open so they can take the patient in and they don’t have any, that’s it. If there’s no ambulance to take the call, there’s no ambulance to come to the call.”

McElyea told the Tulsa World a colleague was forced to send one severely ill Covid patient to a hospital in South Dakota, three states away to the north.

“They had sat in a small hospital needing to be in an [intensive care unit] for several days, and that was the closest ICU that was available,” he said.









						Ivermectin misuse adding to Covid pressures at Oklahoma hospitals, doctor says
					

Jason McElyea says people overdosing on anti-parasitic drug that some people believe without evidence can cure or treat Covid




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (5 September 2021)

Humid said:


> The irony.....excuse the pun



Hey how's "State Daddy" going?
Did the whole state have to dance for him or something today. Or was a simple sacrifice enough?


----------



## Humid (5 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Hey how's "State Daddy" going?
> Did the whole state have to dance for him or something today. Or was a simple sacrifice enough?



Not too sure ....busy having lunch at the pub on a glorious sunny spring day....very busy no masks


----------



## IFocus (5 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Hey how's "State Daddy" going?
> Did the whole state have to dance for him or something today. Or was a simple sacrifice enough?





You would have found him in Rockingham, bogan  cultural centre god love them.


----------



## Humid (5 September 2021)

__





						Running with Thieves are producers of premium quality goods.
					

Running with Thieves is an independent, counter-culture, employee owned brewery and distillery. The majority of everything we do is produced in- house and where possible and sourced locally in Australia. We strive to create an atmosphere and environment to try new things, with creative people passio




					www.runningwiththieves.com
				




This pub in Freo......named after the Liberal party
Very nice west coast IPA


----------



## Joules MM1 (5 September 2021)

Concerned about the safety of mRNA vaccines? 

This study of 6.2 million people who got 11.8 million doses is immensely reassuring. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2784015





David Juurlink


----------



## moXJO (5 September 2021)

Ok, so Joe Rogan caught covid then said he cured it in about 3 days using  "Monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, Z-pak, prednisone, everything. And I also got an anti-D drip and a vitamin drip."


----------



## basilio (5 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Ok, so Joe Rogan caught covid then said he cured it in about 3 days using  "Monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, Z-pak, prednisone, everything. And I also got an anti-D drip and a vitamin drip."




Excellent.  And in the next couple of months all our local  Joe Rogan  wannabes  can chance their arm with COVID. State and Federal governments have made it clear that when vaccination rates reach 70-80% Australia opens up.  Then we can see what happens when delta COVID gets a good clear run at the proud independents who trust their God, their Vitamin D,  their invermection and their general excellent health to protect them.

Clearly COVID isn't the Plague. Probably out of 2 million unvaccinated people no more that 25-30,000 should die and maybe another 180,000 get seriously ill. Of course that assumes they end up in our health system at all.

_The most significant opening up will occur once 80 per cent of the 16+ population has had two doses of a vaccine, in line with the National Cabinet plan.

"It is not going away until we get 80 per cent of people through the vaccination program," Mr Andrews cautioned._



> _"And even then it will be very challenging, because we will open up and it will tear through the people who are not vaccinated._



_"That's the peak. That's the spike that we are going to have to manage."_









						COVID will 'tear through the people who are not vaccinated', once targets are met Andrews says
					

Victoria records 183 new locally acquired cases of COVID-19 as the state pushes to get vaccination rates ahead of a rapidly growing outbreak.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (5 September 2021)

The Johns Hopkins COVID resource centre gives an excellent snapshot of the current state of play with infections. The US is now approaching 200k cases a day after dropping to 20k a day in July 2021.









						New COVID-19 Cases Worldwide - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

Have countries flattened the curve? Daily confirmed new COVID-19 cases for the most affected countries over time.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Excellent.  And in the next couple of months all our local  Joe Rogan  wannabes  can chance their arm with COVID. State and Federal governments have made it clear that when vaccination rates reach 70-80% Australia opens up.  Then we can see what happens when delta COVID gets a good clear run at the proud independents who trust their God, their Vitamin D,  their invermection and their general excellent health to protect them.
> 
> Clearly COVID isn't the Plague. Probably out of 2 million unvaccinated people no more that 25-30,000 should die and maybe another 180,000 get seriously ill. Of course that assumes they end up in our health system at all.
> 
> ...



Victoria had a hard lockdown last time I checked. Everyone was whinging about how  hard lockdown was the only way. Big fkning fail as it turns out. You just delay the inevitable.

I'd be interested in the cost of Rogans treatment as he was tested positive.

So someone is bullshittting.


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

basilio said:


> The Johns Hopkins COVID resource centre gives an excellent snapshot of the current state of play with infections. The US is now approaching 200k cases a day after dropping to 20k a day in July 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shouldn't you be blaming Biden and jumping up and down about how terrible he is. Or do we not notice the obvious difference this time round.


----------



## bellenuit (6 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Shouldn't you be blaming Biden and jumping up and down about how terrible he is. Or do we not notice the obvious difference this time round.




Why? Don't you read the news? Who is being infected and why they are being infected? Why are the huge increases mainly in states with GOP governors and whose populations are influenced by officials who are willing to put their own population at risk to score political points?

Is Biden out there saying that COVID is a hoax or to take some weird medication to stop it? Is he passing laws making it illegal for schools and other institutions to mandate masks to protect  their attendees? Is he the one trying to discredit the CDC? Is he the one that is demonising those who are in the front line of prevention, so that many are scared to go to work for fear of violence against them? One could go on.

If you don't understand why there is a difference this time round then .... it is probably better left unsaid.


----------



## bellenuit (6 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Is he the one that is demonising those who are in the front line of prevention, so that many are scared to go to work for fear of violence against them?




Just in case some are not aware of this:

Nurses, COVID vaccine site workers getting harassed, threatened, health official says​








						Nurses, COVID vaccine site workers getting harassed, threatened, health official says
					

A vaccination site in Georgia also had to be shut down due to threats.




					www.11alive.com


----------



## mullokintyre (6 September 2021)

In my local region, a company called  Med-Con came into prominence as the only mask maker in Australia.
From Sheppnews



> Shepparton face mask manufacturer Med-Con has shed 90 staff since November, after demand for Australian-made surgical grade masks dropped in favour of importing cheaper products.
> Med-Con chief executive Steven Csiszar said the Lemnos factory just outside Shepparton produced masks for "everyone" in 2020, "working cleverly" to fit orders from state health departments in around a whopping 60 million mask contract from the Commonwealth Government.





> We helped everyone,” Mr Csiszar said.
> Before the pandemic Med-Con made two million masks a year and employed 14 people.
> 
> Demand skyrocketed as the virus set in, seeing international supply chains falter and Australian governments scramble to secure locally made face masks.
> ...



State governments are always quick to blame the feds when things are not ready (a good many times with justification).
But as usual, their own short sighted attitudes don't help.
Some of of Med Con's products are sold in Pharmacies (at least they are locally), and of course we all try to buy the local stuff.
But it seems that a lot of people are happy to buy the cheapest made in China stuff, including state governments.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Why? Don't you read the news? Who is being infected and why they are being infected? Why are the huge increases mainly in states with GOP governors and whose populations are influenced by officials who are willing to put their own population at risk to score political points?
> 
> Is Biden out there saying that COVID is a hoax or to take some weird medication to stop it? Is he passing laws making it illegal for schools and other institutions to mandate masks to protect  their attendees? Is he the one trying to discredit the CDC? Is he the one that is demonising those who are in the front line of prevention, so that many are scared to go to work for fear of violence against them? One could go on.
> 
> If you don't understand why there is a difference this time round then .... it is probably better left unsaid.



Biden was the exact one saying it was a hoax only by proxy. It was in fact the Democrats that created the confusion.

Factcheck.org: "Trump did use the word ‘hoax’ but his full comments, and subsequent explanation, make clear he was talking about Democratic attacks on his administration’s handling of the outbreak, not the virus itself."

The Washington Post Fact Checker: "The context of the full quote shows Trump criticized Democratic talking points and media’s coverage of his response to the coronavirus, but does not call the virus itself a hoax."

Snopes: "Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus a hoax."

AP Fact Check: "The accusation is misleading. So is the selective video editing that made it appear Trump was calling the coronavirus a ‘new hoax.’"


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

basilio said:


> The stress  on hospitals of sick unvaccinated COVID patients in Oklahoma is been exacerbated by a steep rise in poisonings from people taking imvermetcin.
> It has now reached the stage where hospitals can't even treat the patients who present with gunshot wounds...
> 
> Oklahoma hospitals deluged by ivermectin overdoses, doctor says​Jason McElyea says people overdosing on anti-parasitic drug that some people believe without evidence can cure or treat Covid
> ...



Is this story fake?
Rolling Stone just admitted they lied
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...rmectin-oklahoma-hospitals-covid-1220608/amp/

One Hospital Denies Oklahoma Doctor’s Story of Ivermectin Overdoses Causing ER Delays for Gunshot Victims​
So did you just spread a whole bunch of bullshet again without verifying bas?


----------



## bellenuit (6 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Biden was the exact one saying it was a hoax only by proxy. It was in fact the Democrats that created the confusion.
> 
> Factcheck.org: "Trump did use the word ‘hoax’ but his full comments, and subsequent explanation, make clear he was talking about Democratic attacks on his administration’s handling of the outbreak, not the virus itself."
> 
> ...




Again you are avoiding the issue. I haven't said Trump called it a hoax, just as I haven't claimed that he passed "laws making it illegal for schools and other institutions to mandate masks to protect their attendees" nor that he had demonised front line workers. I said *Biden* isn't doing these. But these actions are being done and were done by Trumps political base and Trump has done little to curtail them. We do know what Trump did personally - downplaying the seriousness of the virus (no worse than a flu, will be gone in a few weeks, suggesting taking unapproved medicines). 

If you looked at Trump's actions since the virus and conclude he has done everything possible to curtail the virus you are living in cloud cuckoo land. There were daily incidents that are too numerous to recall, but ones that quickly spring to mind are visiting a hospital and refusing to wear a mask, refusing to wear a mask at a mask manufacturing plant requiring most masks in that day's production to be dumped, etc.


----------



## basilio (6 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Is this story fake?
> Rolling Stone just admitted they lied
> https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...rmectin-oklahoma-hospitals-covid-1220608/amp/
> 
> ...




HA, HA HA.  What do we know *as facts *MoXJO

1) COVID is causing huge pressures on hospital facilities and in particular ICU
2) There is also a big rise in people presenting with poisonous size effects from self medication with Invermecin.
3) The consequences of these pressures is squeezing out the whole range of other medical conditions that present at hospitals.


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Is Biden out there saying that COVID is a hoax or to take some weird medication to stop it? Is he passing laws making it illegal for schools and other institutions to mandate masks to protect  their attendees?



You insinuated that was the case. Otherwise if Trump didn't say it, what's the bloody difference now?

Can you post an article on Trump banning masks from schools. As I was unaware of this one
 Majority of masks don't protect you either. That's false information.


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

Did I hit the right note and now you are double checking bas?


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

basilio said:


> HA, HA HA.  What do we know *as facts *MoXJO
> 
> 1) COVID is causing huge pressures on hospital facilities and in particular ICU
> 2) There is also a big rise in people presenting with poisonous size effects from self medication with Invermecin.
> 3) The consequences of these pressures is squeezing out the whole range of other medical conditions that present at hospitals.



The story was a lie. That's a fact regardless of the message. I'm not arguing for invermecin. But the story you presented as facts was bs.

From what I've seen, there hasn't been enough studies for a conclusive answer either way when it's used in conjunction with other medicines.


----------



## Humid (6 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Victoria had a hard lockdown last time I checked. Everyone was whinging about how  hard lockdown was the only way. Big fkning fail as it turns out. You just delay the inevitable.
> 
> I'd be interested in the cost of Rogans treatment as he was tested positive.
> 
> So someone is bullshittting.



Until the self entitled lot to the north got their Karen outfits on


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Until the self entitled lot to the north got their Karen outfits on



How was fathers day you go to see "big daddy"?

It gets even better https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...m/news-story/1467cdbfade0226c10348dd92c1bf3a0

you guys ok over there?


----------



## basilio (6 September 2021)

Watch Now: 'This is not just COVID': Domino effect backs up Oklahoma hospitals, with no relief in sight ​​​ 






Katie Anne Hedges, a nurse in Saint Francis Hospital's Emergency Department, cares for a patient waiting in a hallway for a room. Doctors with the Oklahoma Hospital Association talked Tuesday about their concern over the lack of available beds in the state's hospitals and the strain the load is putting on staff.
                                                                                                                                                                                               John Clanton, Tulsa World                                       
A cardiac patient couldn't get placed in a Stillwater hospital for three days. Another patient had to be transferred all the way to South Dakota.
.........................................................................
Oklahoma hospitals and physicians are sounding alarms that haven’t changed Gov. Kevin Stitt’s view that the government won’t solve COVID-19 and that “personal responsibility” is the way to go.

Hospitals are trying to reserve beds for the “sickest of the sick” but are at capacity, with no apparent relief in sight as exhausted caregivers say the burden is untenable, according to Oklahoma Hospital Association President Patti Davis.
 

She and other medical professionals described a troubled scene across the state during the Healthier Oklahoma Coalition’s weekly COVID-19 briefing with reporters Tuesday.

*Dr. Jason McElyea, a rural emergency room physician, had a gunshot victim in his facility whom for hours he was unable to transfer to a higher level of care because no one had space. One of McElyea’s colleagues had to send a severely ill COVID patient all the way to South Dakota.

“They had sat in a small hospital needing to be in an ICU for several days and that was the closest ICU that was available,” McElyea said.*

Dr. Mary Clarke, president of the Oklahoma State Medical Association, said Stillwater Medical Center has a patient with a cardiac issue that it can’t handle. The patient has been in its care for three days as health care workers keep her stable while trying to find a hospital in Oklahoma City where it can send her, Clarke said.

*“I’m trying to help people understand this is not just COVID,” said Clarke, a family practitioner based in Stillwater. “This is a domino effect to every other health condition that may need a hospital bed. Everything else. Period.

“COVID — yes — is taking up room, but COVID we can prevent (with vaccination). I can’t prevent someone tomorrow from having a heart attack.”*
Davis said the Oklahoma Hospital Association’s recent survey of hospitals found there are about 200 fewer staffed beds in the state than in December.
“That is very much a concern because we know there’s a great deal of fatigue right now of health care providers just saying, ‘We can’t continue to do that,’” Davis said. “That’s affecting them not only professionally but personally, and we are very concerned about that.”
*
Three major Oklahoma City hospital systems have reported no available ICU beds — and a fourth has reported no room for COVID patients — in point-in-time census counts. Some hospitals have halted select services or are delaying nonemergency procedures.*

The governor appears to have no intention of pivoting toward some level of restrictions rather than relying on a message of “personal responsibility” to help hospitals or protect vulnerable individuals.

“The Governor’s position has not changed,” wrote Carly Atchison, spokesperson for Stitt. “He does not believe government will solve the COVID virus now or at any point in time. He will always trust Oklahomans to do the right thing.”

Davis said the Oklahoma Hospital Association’s top concern is the availability of intensive care beds, which she knows is “very tight.” She described how an ICU bed might open at 11 a.m. and be filled five minutes later.

“We know that patients are being transferred out of state for beds,” Davis said. “We are increasingly concerned about the number of holds that are in emergency rooms waiting for ICU beds.”

She said the recent growth in confirmed cases — particularly among school-age children — is alarming because that often is a harbinger of more hospitalizations to come in the near future. Sick children might not need hospitalization as often as adults, but Davis said they could infect their parents.

“We need every tool used right now that we can possibly use to keep people out of the hospital because we’ve got to reserve those beds for the sickest of the sick,” Davis said, referencing monoclonal antibodies and other strategies, such as vaccination, wearing masks, socially distancing, and washing hands or using hand sanitizer frequently.

*McElyea, a frontline family physician working in emergency rooms in eastern and southern Oklahoma, said the gunshot victim who came in normally would have been no problem to transfer out of a small hospital that had no neurosurgeon and minimal critical-care capacities.

“We had a critical patient sitting in our ER for hours, and we simply couldn’t find a place for him to go,” McElyea said. “Another colleague in a place across the state: same situation. A traumatic brain injury with internal bleeding — couldn’t find a place to place these patients.”
*
The other patient with head trauma and internal bleeding was sent to Missouri, he said.

McElyea touched on one of the financial ramifications to families, too. He noted that insurers don’t pay for patients to be transferred back in state.
“Where it recently hit home for me was I had a colleague tell me they transferred a patient to South Dakota,” McElyea said. “These families have to worry about not just how their loved one is doing but how to get them back when they’re better.”
Dr. David Kendrick, chairman of the Department of Medical Informatics at the OU School of Community Medicine, said COVID patients are staying longer in ICU beds because they are trending younger and healthier.
Kendrick said that means they can tolerate being on a ventilator longer to hopefully come off it than those who were already ill before infection.

Davis said the Oklahoma Hospital Association’s members aren’t conveying any sense of a light at the end of the tunnel for overwhelmed hospitals.

“I think we’ve got a ways to go to get to a level where as a state the hospitals can breathe a sigh of relief and say, ‘We’re headed in the right direction,’” Davis said.









						Watch Now: 'This is not just COVID': Domino effect backs up Oklahoma hospitals, with no relief in sight
					

Oklahoma has 200 fewer staffed beds in the state than in December. “That is very much a concern because we know there’s a great deal of fatigue right now of




					tulsaworld.com


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Watch Now: 'This is not just COVID': Domino effect backs up Oklahoma hospitals, with no relief in sight ​​​
> View attachment 129908
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah don't have a problem with the above. This is the risk that's been mentioned numerous times before.

Noticed this:


> Davis said, referencing *monoclonal antibodies* and other strategies, such as vaccination, wearing masks, socially distancing, and washing hands or using hand sanitizer frequently.




Which was a part of Joe Rogans stack. So possibly this is what made covid a minor issue. Majority of people don't get it that bad to begin with. Also for all I know he might have been vaccinated.

Now why is it important to know if any of these drugs work?
Because when the hospitals eventually fill up and it overwhelms the health sector. You might be desperate for an easily accessible treatment when you are left to die.


----------



## basilio (6 September 2021)

The pressure of COVID on hospitals closer to home.









						Sarah arrived at work to see ambulances banked up. She knew they were coming for her
					

The ABC asked healthcare workers across the country to talk to us about their experiences in the system. These are their stories.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Humid (6 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> How was fathers day you go to see "big daddy"?
> 
> It gets even better https://www.news.com.au/finance/wor...m/news-story/1467cdbfade0226c10348dd92c1bf3a0
> 
> you guys ok over there?



Off to the airport.....back to work 
Someone has to keep you eastcoast bludgers


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Off to the airport.....back to work
> Someone has to keep you eastcoast bludgers



Hey, we are hard at work giving you other government loving states sht. You guys will be wanting to get labor microchip implants next.

We will open up after we spread the 'Sydney sneeze' round a bit. The panic from some of you softer states will turn attention.


----------



## basilio (6 September 2021)

Update on spread of delta COVID in US. Population Texas 29m

345 children hospitalized with COVID-19 in Texas over weekend​The Texas State Health Department revealed Sunday 345 children were hospitalized with COVID-19 over the weekend.

As of Sunday, there were 73 available staffed pediatric ICU beds, according to the health department.

Since school began in the state last month, 52,000 students have tested positive for the virus, the health department data shows.

Stillwater, Oklahoma, declares state of emergency, overflow tents set up









						COVID-19 updates: 345 children currently hospitalized with coronavirus in Texas
					

The United States is facing a COVID-19 surge this summer as the more contagious delta variant spreads.




					abcnews.go.com
				












						781 students quarantined at Texas school district after mass COVID-19 spread
					

At least 45 school districts around Texas have been forced to temporarily stop in-person classes because of COVID-19 spread.




					www.nwahomepage.com


----------



## IFocus (6 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Hey, we are hard at work giving you other government loving states sht. You guys will be wanting to get labor microchip implants next.
> 
> We will open up after we spread the 'Sydney sneeze' round a bit. The panic from some of you softer states will turn attention.




All ready got them they go in right next to Marks tattoo.


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> All ready got them they go in right next to Marks tattoo.



Extra 5 schooners if you get albo clinging to marks leg.


----------



## bellenuit (6 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Can you post an article on Trump banning masks from schools. As I was unaware of this one
> Majority of masks don't protect you either. That's false information.




You didn't read what I posted. I said his cohorts are doing it. Or to be precise I should d have said they are banning mandatory mask wearing in schools. 









						U.S. opens investigations into bans on school mask mandates in 5 states
					

The U.S. Department of Education is opening civil rights investigations to determine whether five states that have banned schools from requiring masks are discriminating against students with disabilities, the agency said on Monday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> You didn't read what I posted. I said his cohorts are doing it. Or to be precise I should d have said they are banning mandatory mask wearing in schools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well that just reinforced my argument about not jumping up and down about Biden even more. Biden's whole platform was to "do the coronavirus right". 

Meanwhile it looks like it's turning to sht. Along with the border, Afghanistan, the economy, respect from the world, or being feared for that matter. 


Is the current health/science guidelines that kids need to wear masks?
I honestly haven't checked. I bloody hope not.


----------



## bellenuit (6 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Well that just reinforced my argument about not jumping up and down about Biden even more.




It hasn't reinforced anything you said. You don't set the guidelines on mask wearing and any prejudice you may have against it is of no concern. There have been sufficient health studies to justify it in most  circumstances. Banning mandating of masks defeats its effectiveness.

Masks aside, you have ignored everything else that I raised such as demonising of health workers.

Can you tell me what Biden is doing that is causing the current outbreak to be worse than it should be? He is following the scientific guidelines while Trump's cohorts are going their best to thwart them. He can't personally defeat the virus and he needs all states pulling together to have any effect, Those pulling against him are GOP controlled states, who now happen to have some of the worst affected populations.


----------



## basilio (6 September 2021)

Excellent graphical overview of where Australia is going with COVID.

Check out the graph of our current new cases. It is not good.














						Covid Australia vaccine rollout tracker: total number of people and per cent vaccinated, daily vaccine doses and rate of progress
					

How does Australia’s coronavirus vaccine rollout and schedule compare with other countries, when will Australia be fully vaccinated and when will you be eligible to get your dose? We bring together the latest numbers on daily new Covid-19 cases, as well as stats and live data on total...




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

bellenuit said:


> It hasn't reinforced anything you said. You don't set the guidelines on mask wearing and any prejudice you may have against it is of no concern. There have been sufficient health studies to justify it in most  circumstances. Banning mandating of masks defeats its effectiveness.
> 
> Masks aside, you have ignored everything else that I raised such as demonising of health workers.
> 
> Can you tell me what Biden is doing that is causing the current outbreak to be worse than it should be? He is following the scientific guidelines while Trump's cohorts are going their best to thwart them. He can't personally defeat the virus and he needs all states pulling together to have any effect, Those pulling against him are GOP controlled states, who now happen to have some of the worst affected populations.



How on earth is Biden doing a good job if he can't in fact do his job?
You basically posted up a sob story when Biden has had a very soft touch from media with little pressure at all.

Last time I checked there was a core group here blaming Trump for everything (even when it wasn't true). Even when Biden has media onside. He still can't answer questions to a friendly media pack. 

Cases of covid are blowing out but it's still trumps fault. Afganistan withdrawal was a bloody mess, Na nothing. The border is a bloody mess, Na let's bury that. If this were Trump the media and the screeches on here would be deafening.

 They guy basically rolled out Trumps vaccination plan and is now stumped. 
Possibly the weakest leadership ever (and Obama was running a close 2nd)

As for masks I was one of the first to post up the studies and data. 
If you think they protect you then you better go read again. The most the majority do is limit the distance when you exhale/ stop you touching your face. The virus still travels through.

I'm not a fan of it for schools. You know, because science based.. Not cult based. I may become a fan when the science changes.



> Centers for Disease Control and Prevention published a notable, yet mostly ignored, large-scale study of COVID transmission in American schools. A few major news outlets covered its release by briefly reiterating the study’s summary: that masking then-unvaccinated teachers and improving ventilation with more fresh air were associated with a lower incidence of the virus in schools. Those are common-sense measures, and the fact that they seem to work is reassuring but not surprising. Other findings of equal importance in the study, however, were absent from the summary and not widely reported. These findings cast doubt on the impact of many of the most common mitigation measures in American schools. Distancing, hybrid models, classroom barriers, HEPA filters, and, most notably, requiring student masking were each found to not have a statistically significant benefit. In other words, these measures could not be said to be effective.


----------



## moXJO (6 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Excellent graphical overview of where Australia is going with COVID.
> 
> Check out the graph of our current new cases. It is not good.
> 
> ...



NSW should get to double the number of cases that Victoria had and still be at 1/4 the deaths. Still a terrible thing but it's better than nothing. 

Hopefully vaccination keeps up. Nsw will no doubt just open the gates when we hit the target. Get vaccinated if you haven't already as hospitals are filling.


----------



## sptrawler (6 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> NSW should get to double the number of cases that Victoria had and still be at 1/4 the deaths. Still a terrible thing but it's better than nothing.
> 
> Hopefully vaccination keeps up. Nsw will no doubt just open the gates when we hit the target. Get vaccinated if you haven't already as hospitals are filling.



Like we have been saying since the beginning, these lockdowns where designed to reduce the load on the hospital system, when the system is in a position to cope there wont be any lockdowns. Then everyone gets the virus, vaccinated or not, people do have choices.
Interesting that today NSW has 74% with the first vaccine dose, that has certainly happened quickly, obviously shows hesitancy is all but gone.
Even on the National figures, they are saying 63% have had the first dose, W.A and Qld are lagging a bit at 53% but we do have the protection of our State leaders taking the good fight up to the virus.


----------



## basilio (6 September 2021)

Let's see what happens when COVID gets a head of steam.
It will become real when it's us or a friend who can't get into hospital.
Or the people running the system just run out of steam.









						How will hospitals cope when NSW Covid cases hit 2,000 a day? Here’s what the modelling says
					

We examine Burnet Institute projections for how the state’s healthcare system will respond to pressure in coming weeks




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moXJO (7 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Let's see what happens when COVID gets a head of steam.
> It will become real when it's us or a friend who can't get into hospital.
> Or the people running the system just run out of steam.
> 
> ...



Na let's just keep up the vaccination and bring this to a head. Even young people in nsw are going in on their own accord.  

The cases are pretty concentrated at the moment. I think by November things will be a lot worse stat wise.

 If you need a vaccine best of getting it now. It's walk ins for astra. I know it got a bad rap. But I do think it's better than pfizer.


----------



## explod (7 September 2021)

75 deaths according to the Herald Sun today in Melbourne over the last day.  

This is terrible, we need a vaccine for natural causes.

World is a joke IMHO


----------



## sptrawler (7 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> If you need a vaccine best of getting it now. It's walk ins for astra. I know it got a bad rap. But I do think it's better than pfizer.



I think there is a lot less unknowns with AZ, the daughters took us out for lunch on Sunday, the younger one said she has decided to have AZ. Absolutely no input from me, as I've said before, it is an issue I'm reluctant to give advice on, definitely a personal choice IMO.


----------



## moXJO (7 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think there is a lot less unknowns with AZ, the daughters took us out for lunch on Sunday, the younger one said she has decided to have AZ. Absolutely no input from me, as I've said before, it is an issue I'm reluctant to give advice on, definitely a personal choice IMO.



It lasts longer and the effects of vector vax are known.


----------



## Joules MM1 (7 September 2021)

for all the aluminium haute couture  headwear gang


----------



## wayneL (7 September 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> for all the aluminium haute couture  headwear gang
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will pay that... LMAO


----------



## Alexander_Zhu (8 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Na let's just keep up the vaccination and bring this to a head. Even young people in nsw are going in on their own accord.
> 
> The cases are pretty concentrated at the moment. I think by November things will be a lot worse stat wise.
> 
> If you need a vaccine best of getting it now. It's walk ins for astra. I know it got a bad rap. But I do think it's better than pfizer.



Ahah, maybe one day the world will accept Sputnik V? From what I've heard from people around me, the side effects are give or take the same for AZ and Sputnik, and none of my friends who got Sputnik in Russia eventually got sick. Who knows, who knows...


----------



## moXJO (8 September 2021)

Alexander_Zhu said:


> Ahah, maybe one day the world will accept Sputnik V? From what I've heard from people around me, the side effects are give or take the same for AZ and Sputnik, and none of my friends who got Sputnik in Russia eventually got sick. Who knows, who knows...




Pfizer basically got a mass study of rna technology. Probably some well placed articles and everyone thought pfizer vax was the best. 

All the other vaccines were probably safer (including Chinese/Russian vax) considering rna had no long term studies and the known effects on the organs.


----------



## wayneL (8 September 2021)

Can neither confirm not deny... Comments?


----------



## moXJO (9 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Can neither confirm not deny... Comments?




Seems to be a lot of chatter about it I'll see if I can find anything. Meanwhile you can get it here :
https://imedical.com.au/order/blood-tests/private-blood-tests?product_id=125


----------



## moXJO (9 September 2021)

So vaccine passports will become a thing. Ok what if you have already had covid and already have immunity?

Interesting thing in France: Westfield group and our very own Billionaire Frank Lowy (is he dead yet?) seems to have endorsed police beating unvaccinated Frenchies our of his shopping centres.

Protests eventually chased the cops out.



Slightly more credible news article(always double check Twitter cr@p








						Protesters in Paris invade shopping center in protest against corona pass
					

For example, hundreds of protesters entered a shopping center in Paris, the Westfield Forum des Halles. The ME was unable




					www.paudal.com


----------



## moXJO (9 September 2021)

Another interesting thing. The vaccine ain't working very well. Wish I got astra. Israel are talking about a fourth shot already. Really?







__





						Virus czar calls to begin readying for eventual 4th vaccine dose | The Times of Israel
					






					www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 September 2021)

NSW Health limits residents of locked-down tower block to six beers per day​








						Six-beer limit for homes in strict lockdown
					

Residents in apartment blocks locked-down by NSW Health are having their alcohol deliveries policed as part of a policy to limit the number of drinks being consumed each day.




					www.news.com.au
				




It's overstepping the mark in my view.

For the record I very rarely drink alcohol, haven't touched the stuff at all for years, but my own view isn't the point. If people want to drink to the point of getting drunk well that's a separate issue to the pandemic and the law doesn't preclude doing so.


----------



## wayneL (9 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Seems to be a lot of chatter about it I'll see if I can find anything. Meanwhile you can get it here :
> https://imedical.com.au/order/blood-tests/private-blood-tests?product_id=125



Interesting that it picks up any cv antibodies, not just c19.

That makes it pretty useless imo, as (if I have my facts right) some of the viruses responsible for the common cold  are also CVs


----------



## wayneL (9 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Another interesting thing. The vaccine ain't working very well. Wish I got astra. Israel are talking about a fourth shot already. Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Is I ever get stuck with one of these things, it won't be Pfizer, that is for sure and if forced would go AZ at this point.

But I still ain't convinced on the risk/reward... especially for Mrs.


----------



## wayneL (9 September 2021)

Macron and his cabal of Satanists have forsaken the French motto of "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité"

The French people haven't.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Can neither confirm not deny... Comments?




I was a bit sceptical of this (I mean its on Twitter), so I hunted around and found something..
According to Australian Doctors News  its true in at least two states.


> GPs could face fines  up to $20,000 for  improper use of coronavirus  serology  tests  aer  at  least  two  states have prohibited  their  use  for  diagnostic  purposes.
> Minister  for  Health  Greg  Hunt  announced last  month that the Federal Government had secured 1.5 million of  the  point-of-care  tests  to  be  used  in  general  practices  in  the  fight  against  COVID-19.
> "They  will  allow  us  to  assist  with  greater  testing  of  health  workers  themselves  to  give  them  the  confidence and — where appropriate — patients," he said at the time. The tests,  given  fast-track  approval  by  the  TGA,  detect  IgM  and  IgG  antibodies  to  SARS-CoV-2  from  venous  or fingerprick  blood  samples  placed  on  a  test  strip. While  they  can  produce  results  in  about  15-30  minutes,  experts  have  raised  concerns  about  false-negative rates  and  warn they  are  unreliable  for  detection  of  acute  COVID-19. The Royal College  of  Pathologists  of  Australasia  on  Wednesday  warned  the  tests  had  a  “fundamental limitation”  because  antibodies  could  take  up  to  12  days  to  develop,  long  aer a person becomes infectious. Instead,  PCR  tests,  which  detect  fragments  of  the  virus  and  have  been  used  in  Australia  so  far,  should continue  to  be the diagnostic  gold-standard  test,  it  says.
> Now, two states have used emergency powers to prohibit anyone from using a point-of-care  serological  test as  an acute illness  diagnostic  tool. The tests  are  due to arrive  "within  days",  according  to  the  Federal  Government. In  WA, GPs who oer the tests can be fined up to $20,000, while companies face fines of up to $100,000  under  the  state’s  Public  Health  Act. The WA Department of Health said they made the declaration because of concerns about the “serious limitations”  of  the  tests,  which  oered  an  “unacceptable  risk”  of  community  transmission  due  to  false negatives. Health  oicials  stressed  that  the  serological  tests  could  be  used  as  a  screening  tool  for  people  aer  they have had the infection  or  for  the  purpose  of public  health  research. SA also  announced a ban on Thursday, with oicials declaring that use of the tests “may adversely aect the prevention,  control  and  abatement  of  the  serious  public  health  risk  presented  by  COVID-19”. The State  Government said the ban would apply to anyone outside SA Pathology employees or public health  services,  with  police  able  to  issue  fines  of  up  to  $1000  to  GPs  and  $5000  to  companies that ordered the test.



Mick


----------



## basilio (9 September 2021)

A different perspective on Craig Kelly and his campaign as Freedom Fighter.









						In defence of Craig Kelly, freedom fighter
					

What most of us don’t realise, because we’re sheeple, is that we’re being lied to.




					theshot.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (9 September 2021)

My favourite site for satire, The babylon Bee
Pfizer Releases Brand New, Never-Before-Seen Drug 'Pfivermectin'
Health
September 4th, 2021 - BabylonBee.com





4
U.S.—After several successful rounds of trials and a quick overnight approval from the FDA, Pfizer proudly announced they will be releasing a brand new, never-before-seen COVID drug "Pfivermectin."
"It's important to understand that this drug is nothing like Ivermectin, even though Pfivermectin rhymes with Ivermectin and it pretty much does the exact same thing," said Pfizer CEO Hans Pfizer. "Everyone knows Ivermectin is a widely discredited horse drug, and ours is not. Very important distinction there." 
Experts say that taking two doses of Pfivermectin every day at the first sign of COVID symptoms could lessen the severity and duration of the infection. Ivermectin will do the same thing, except it may also turn you into a horse and make everyone laugh at you. Not good! 

A Pfizer spokesman also confirmed that their drug will be approximately 30,000% more expensive than Ivermectin.

"Don't worry about the cost," said the spokesman. "The government will cover the cost. Besides, that's a small price to pay to not turn into a horse!"


----------



## wayneL (9 September 2021)

Another conspiracy theory bites the dust.


----------



## moXJO (9 September 2021)

basilio said:


> A different perspective on Craig Kelly and his campaign as Freedom Fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The UAP is on track to have the most membership of any party at this stage. These guys are just grifters. But I'd probably vote them just as a protest vote against the idiots now.


----------



## moXJO (9 September 2021)

Joe Rogan blasts ‘lies’ about Covid drug treatment: ‘Do I have to sue CNN?’​








						Joe Rogan blasts ‘lies’ about Covid drug
					

Podcast host Joe Rogan wondered if he should sue CNN after the liberal network accused him of distributing misinformation after taking ivermectin, an antiparasitic drug that has recently prompted federal health warnings, during his battle with COVID-19.




					www.news.com.au
				





Still interested in proper studies and combinations. Apparently treated by a doctor. He has the money for decent healthcare. He isn't on the lower end of the scale


----------



## wayneL (9 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> The UAP is on track to have the most membership of any party at this stage. These guys are just grifters. But I'd probably vote them just as a protest vote against the idiots now.



Agreed, and exactly how I am thinking at the moment. Either UAP or lib dems depending who I think will have the greatest chance to stick it up the establishment at the time


----------



## macca (9 September 2021)

I am grieving, how can this be happening ? If someone chooses not to vaccinate and then dies, so be it


----------



## mullokintyre (9 September 2021)

A remake on the old VB ad for Covid


----------



## wayneL (9 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> A remake on the old VB ad for Covid




Yeah, nah!


----------



## moXJO (9 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Agreed, and exactly how I am thinking at the moment. Either UAP or lib dems depending who I think will have the greatest chance to stick it up the establishment at the time



Kelly seems to be garnering a big loon base. If you want a shake up, put the loons in charge that have a "Born Free" leaning membership. 

"Lib dem" sound to much like Liberals or Democrats to our uneducated population. I don't think they will get enough vote numbers just because of the name.

 UAP is great at conning the masses. Problem is the generally implode a few months after winning. Still, a large vote for them will make the other parties back off the authoritarian measures. 

I heard a few liberal die-hards are voting one nation.
Can't stand some of the members of these parties. But when you have media as left as "the atlantic" questioning if Australia is still considered a "liberal democracy". You know we are in trouble.









						Australia Traded Away Too Much Liberty
					

How long can a democracy maintain emergency restrictions and still call itself a free country?




					www.theatlantic.com
				




You know how you wondered how those shtbowl countries allowed themselves to lose all their freedoms. Pretty obvious now that half the population starts d1ckriding into oblivion.


----------



## Joules MM1 (9 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> I will pay that... LMAO



but wait, there's....


----------



## wayneL (9 September 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> but wait, there's....
> View attachment 130097



You do realise it ivermectin has been a human medicine for several decades?

you do realise that when you invoke the horse dewormer argument that you make yourself look like an absolute idiot and propagandist.

Ivermectin in correct dose does not cause sterilisation, so f*** off idiot.


----------



## macca (9 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> You do realise it ivermectin has been a human medicine for several decades?
> 
> you do realise that when you invoke the horse dewormer argument that you make yourself look like an absolute idiot and propagandist.
> 
> Ivermectin in correct dose does not cause sterilisation, so f*** off idiot.



I think he is only trolling you Wayne, 

It is a known fact that the drug is one of the few drugs that has won a Nobel Prize and has saved millions of lives.

Then again if anyone does not know that then there is no hope for the world as we know it


----------



## wayneL (9 September 2021)

macca said:


> I think he is only trolling you Wayne,
> 
> It is a known fact that the drug is one of the few drugs that has won a Nobel Prize and has saved millions of lives.
> 
> Then again if anyone does not know that then there is no hope for the world as we know it



No doubt, macca.

But one must only have a cursory bruessel of the mainstream media and the over-arching narrative is that ivermectin is a horse wormer and anyone taking the drug is going in to feed shops and buying tubes of paste.... And overdosing themselves.

On the left almost nobody realises, or is willing to accept that it is is human drug available by prescription... And they are all too willing to spread this information for their own dystopian ends.

F*** them, their stupidity needs to be called out as often as necessary.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 September 2021)

Theres been a lot of talk about logic, or lack thereof amongst the genii on this forum.






For your edification only.
mick


----------



## Joules MM1 (9 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> You do realise it ivermectin has been a human medicine for several decades?
> 
> you do realise that when you invoke the horse dewormer argument that you make yourself look like an absolute idiot and propagandist.
> 
> Ivermectin in correct dose does not cause sterilisation, so f*** off idiot.




before youre blocked, here's something to investigate, albeit not peer reviewed
it is the source of the homour, which, you had appeared to have recovered yourself








						Ivermectin infertility story correction: FDA rejects 2011 Nigeria study
					

A national story regarding Ivermectin and a study regarding its effect on men’s reproductive health that KTSM published, has been removed from our website.




					www.wfla.com
				



have the last word, i wont bother reading it or know you posted it


----------



## Joules MM1 (9 September 2021)

Ivermectin is the new hydroxychloroquine, take 6: More fraud?
					

Ivermectin has been hyped without evidence as "miracle cure" for COVID-19. It turns out that more widely cited studies were likely fraudulent.




					respectfulinsolence.com
				




excerpt:


> For anti-vaccine activists, the clinical trial results couldn’t have been better. The drug ivermectin, scientists in Argentina announced last year, prevented 100% of COVID-19 infections.
> That glowing finding helped spark a craze for the decades-old medication, which is normally used to delouse people and deworm livestock, and drive the perception that it is a silver bullet against the pandemic.



Let me just stop right there. Any study that concludes that a drug is 100% effective is very suspect right off the bat. Why? Almost nothing in medicine is 100% effective, and a claim of 100% efficacy would be far higher than the known efficacy of treatments that have been demonstrated to be extremely efficacious. As our friend Meyerowitz-Katz put it in his article on the topic:


----------



## DB008 (10 September 2021)

Not sure if posted, but this is certainly very interesting.

Pfizer Phase 1 trail for mRNA cancer treatment


A First-in-Human Dose Escalation and Expansion Study to Evaluate Intratumoral Administration of SAR441000 as Monotherapy and in Combination With Cemiplimab in Patients With Advanced Solid Tumors​
Brief Summary:​​Primary Objectives:​
Dose Escalation: To determine maximum tolerated dose (MTD) or maximum administered dose (MAD) and overall safety and tolerability profile of SAR441000 when administered intratumorally as monotherapy and in combination with cemiplimab in patients who have no alternative standard treatment options.
Dose Expansion (Combination): To determine the objective response rate of SAR441000 administered intratumorally in combination with cemiplimab in patients with melanoma, cutaneous squamous cell carcinoma or head and neck squamous cell carcinoma.
Secondary Objectives:​
To characterize the pharmacokinetic (PK) profile of SAR441000 administered as monotherapy and in combination with cemiplimab.
To assess the immunogenicity of SAR441000.
To characterize the safety of SAR441000 when administered intratumorally in combination with cemiplimab.
To determine the disease control rate (DCR), duration of response (DoR) and progression free survival (PFS) of SAR441000.
To determine the recommended dose of SAR441000 for the expansion phase.



Official Title:A Phase 1 First-in-Human Dose Escalation and Expansion Study for the Evaluation of Safety, Pharmacokinetics, Pharmacodynamics and Anti-tumor Activity of SAR441000 Administered Intratumorally as Monotherapy and in Combination With Cemiplimab in Patients With Advanced Solid Tumors

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03871348​



Moderna for mRNA HIV treatment


A Phase 1 Study to Evaluate the Safety and Immunogenicity of eOD-GT8 60mer mRNA Vaccine (mRNA-1644) and Core-g28v2 60mer mRNA Vaccine (mRNA-1644v2-Core)​

Brief Summary:

A Phase 1, Randomized, First-in-human, Open-label Study to Evaluate the Safety and Immunogenicity of eOD-GT8 60mer mRNA Vaccine (mRNA-1644) and Core-g28v2 60mer mRNA Vaccine (mRNA-1644v2-Core) in HIV-1 Uninfected Adults in Good General Health



Official Title:A Phase 1, Randomized, First-in-human, Open-label Study to Evaluate the Safety and Immunogenicity of eOD-GT8 60mer mRNA Vaccine (mRNA-1644) and Core-g28v2 60mer mRNA Vaccine (mRNA-1644v2-Core) in HIV-1 Uninfected Adults in Good General Health


https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05001373?term=mRNA&cond=HIV&draw=2&rank=4​

.


----------



## mullokintyre (10 September 2021)

There has been a bit of a kerfuffle about people interpreting the 5 sacred reason for leaving your house.
It seems that some people from Melbourne were booking  both tests and indeed vaccinations in regional areas.
The rules stated that going to get tested was one of the 5 sacred reasons, but it din'r specify how far you were allowed to go.
From Sheppnews



> COVID-19 commander Jeroen Weimar said restrictions have tightened around where Melburnians can go to get vaccinated.
> 
> "You cannot go to regional Victoria for a vaccination," he said, speaking to metropolitan residents.
> 
> ...



I can't imagine this is not also happening in other lockdown areas in NSW.
Never underestimate the peoples ability to get around rules and regs.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (10 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I was a bit sceptical of this (I mean its on Twitter), so I hunted around and found something..
> According to Australian Doctors News  its true in at least two states.
> GPs could face fines up to $20,000 for improper use of coronavirus serology tests aer at least two states have prohibited their use for diagnostic purposes.
> Minister for Health Greg Hunt announced last month that the Federal Government had secured 1.5 million of the point-of-care tests to be used in general practices in the fight against COVID-19.
> Mick



The fines don't seem to affect woolies.
From Todays OZ


> Woolworths is working to roll out rapid antigen testing across all of its distribution sites across the country following a successful trial of the Covid-19 tool at four worksites in Sydney.
> 
> Since August 27 Woolworths has conducted 21,439 tests with 10 positive rapid antigen testing results.
> 
> Those cases were then screened through the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) test, where seven returned positive.




Seems a bit odd that a grocery company can make a decision about a medical test, but a GP cannot.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (10 September 2021)

There has a been a bit of controversy in the US after Texas effectively outlawed abortions beyond six weeks.
From ABC News


> President Joe Biden's administration has sued Texas, seeking to block enforcement of a new law almost entirely banning abortion in the state, as Democrats fear the right to abortion established almost 50 years ago may be at risk.
> 
> The US Supreme Court last week let stand the Texas law banning abortion after about six weeks of pregnancy — before many women realise they are pregnant.
> 
> ...



In the accompanying photograph there is a phalanx of women with the various slogans about a woman's body is her own, hands off our bodies etc etc.
Thats all very well, but what are they gunna do when a woman  comes up with the same argument for being against compulsory  vaccination?
Should be an interesting conundrum.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (10 September 2021)

Just recently, there some posters who criticised the feds and alternatively praised the QLD premier over the building of a Quarantine facility  at Welcamp airport.
They were also quite critical about some ASF members who were a tad sceptical about the proposal.
Despite their protestations, it seems some of the airlines are a tad sceptical about the Wellcamp proposal as well.

From Todays OZ


> Airlines have raised doubts about the commercial viability of operating international flights into Toowoomba’s Wellcamp Airport, where a new 1000-bed quarantine facility is to be built.
> Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk announced last month her government had given the facility the green light despite a lack of support from Canberra.
> 
> The federal government claimed Wellcamp was unsuitable for quarantine accommodation because it was not close to a tertiary hospital and instead backed a site at Pinkenba near Brisbane Airport.
> ...



Mick


----------



## Joules MM1 (10 September 2021)

Eric Feigl-Ding

@DrEricDin
·5h
Amazing—new Moderna combination vaccine of 6 mRNAs against 3 different respiratory viruses: #SARSCoV2 booster & influenza booster & RSV booster—all in one single vaccine! Successful in mice. Bring on the clinical trials in humans quick… #COVID19 #RSV #flu


----------



## wayneL (10 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The fines don't seem to affect woolies.
> From Todays OZ
> 
> 
> ...



It's not odd at all... In a fascist system.

In fact it is expected.


----------



## Joules MM1 (10 September 2021)




----------



## wayneL (11 September 2021)

Covid by the numbers... Just the facts ma'am









						Just the facts: Coronavirus in Australia by the numbers | The Spectator Australia
					

Notes:  The data below is generally current as at 7 September 2021 however there may be some minor discrepancies due to jurisdictional reporting methods and timeframes etc. A key source of information…




					www.spectator.com.au


----------



## basilio (13 September 2021)

How NSW lost control of COVID.









						Sydney lockdown delay after superspreader party
					

It has emerged that the New South Wales government waited to lock down all of Sydney until two days after health authorities discovered they had not contained a superspreader event blamed for the Delta outbreak in the city's south-west.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (13 September 2021)

basilio said:


> A different perspective on Craig Kelly and his campaign as Freedom Fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Carig kelly has been threatened with court action over 'misleading " texts.
Mind Your health


> Professor Skerritt told the ABC on Wednesday the campaign was “quite misleading” because it gave people a long list of deaths that were not caused by vaccines.
> Loading
> The text message said “Australian Government’s COVID-19 Vaccines Adverse Events Report” and linked to a campaign site that used the TGA’s logo and the Commonwealth coat of arms in a way that looked like the medical regulator’s own site.
> The site listed 448 deaths as a “reported outcome” after vaccination with AstraZeneca or Pfizer without telling people that most of this tally comprised deaths from other causes.
> ...



Kelly's response was to say "bring it on".
He is suggesting that the authorities will not prosecute because  they would be under oath themselves and not allowed to be a bit liberal the truth, plus the process of issuing subpoenas for documents may turf in a few things that they don't want made public.
Time will tell whether he is correct.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (13 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Carig kelly has been threatened with court action over 'misleading " texts.
> Mind Your health
> 
> Kelly's response was to say "bring it on".
> ...



I have just ordered a bulk supply popcorn and beer for that stoush.

And forwhat it's worth, whether Craig is right or wrong he's acting totally in good faith imo, so I hope he is on the money with this


----------



## DB008 (13 September 2021)

*Denmark lifts all Covid restrictions as vaccinations top 80%*​​​*Scandinavian country declares it no longer considers coronavirus a ‘socially critical’ disease*​​​Denmark’s high vaccination rate has enabled it to become one of the first EU countries to lift all domestic restrictions, after 548 days with curbs in place to limit the spread of Covid-19,​​The return to normality has been gradual, but as of Friday, the digital pass – a proof of having been vaccinated – is no longer required when entering nightclubs, making it the last virus safeguard to fall.

More than 80% of people above the age of 12 in the Scandinavian country have had the two shots, leading the Danish government to declare as of midnight it no longer considers Covid-19 a “socially critical” disease.

“I wouldn’t say it is too early. We have opened the door but we have also said that we can close it if needed,” Søren Riis Paludan, a professor of virology at Aarhus University in Denmark’s second largest city, said.

The tipping point in Denmark to start easing restrictions came when a majority in the 50+ age group had both shots, Riis Paludan said.

Since 14 August, mask-wearing on public transport has no longer been mandatory. On 1 September, nightclubs reopened, limits on public gatherings were removed and it was no longer mandatory to show the pass to sit inside restaurants, go to sports matches, gyms or the hairdresser.​​However, the wearing of face coverings is still mandatory at airports and people are advised to wear one when at the doctor, test centres or hospitals. Distancing is still recommended and strict entry restrictions still apply for non-Danes at the borders. The outbreak is still considered “an ordinary dangerous illness”.​​The Danish health minister, Magnus Heunicke, said in August that “the epidemic is under control”, but warned “we are not out of the epidemic” and the government would act as needed.​







​
https://www.theguardian.com/weather...-restrictions-as-vaccinations-top-80-per-cent​



.​


----------



## sptrawler (13 September 2021)

Australia's vaccine hesitancy is becoming a thing of the past especially in NSW, fear is a strong motivator, I guess it's the fear of never being able to leave your house. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (13 September 2021)

Now we have the media cranking up the doom and gloom.








						New science lobby group claims NSW reopening will crash ICUs
					

Unless restrictions are reimposed, NSW’s road map to reopening would lead to all the state’s ICU beds being full for five weeks over Christmas, modelling by OzSAGE projects.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Modelling by a new scientific lobby group projects that NSW’s road map to reopening may lead to all the state’s intensive care unit beds being full for five weeks over Christmas and almost 1000 people dying from COVID-19.

The modelling is the first release from OzSAGE, a group of high-profile scientists who have come together to call for Australia to change course on reopening.
OzSAGE’s membership includes some of Australia’s best-known scientists including leading epidemiologist Tony Blakely, Burnet Institute head Brendan Crabb, the Grattan Institute’s Stephen Duckett, the Kirby Institute’s biosecurity program head Raina MacIntyre and ANU vice-chancellor and Nobel-prize winning astronomer Brian Schmidt.


----------



## IFocus (13 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Now we have the media cranking up the doom and gloom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nothing to do with the media its the modelling that's making the call.

Compare NSW opening up at what 60% ish total with ICUs over run compared to Danish more than 80% of people above the age of 12.

What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## sptrawler (13 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> Nothing to do with the media its the modelling that's making the call.
> 
> Compare NSW opening up at what 60% ish total with ICUs over run compared to Danish more than 80% of people above the age of 12.
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?



So as long as you call it modelling, it doesn't matter where it comes from, priceless. 👍
Who is OzSAGE?
Should the Government use their modelling to decide their course of action?
Or are they another "new science group"that fits in with your perception? Of canning any Government, as long as it isn't a labor Government. 
WayneL will be happy, as OzSAGE seems to be suggesting waiting until everyone is vaccinated, which could be some time as in Wayne's case. 👍

From the article:
The OzSAGE modelling is solely for the effect that easing restrictions would have in NSW. It has yet to model the outcome of eased restrictions in Victoria or the rest of the country.
Former deputy chief medical officer Nick Coatsworth said the group represented scientists who found themselves on one extreme of the risk spectrum.

“They say ‘nobody left behind’. Now, we could take that approach. But it would mean you’d have to extend restrictions,” he said.
“There would be a significant imposition on people’s freedoms – who have done the right thing and are vaccinated – based on this philosophy that we can’t possibly open up until we’ve spent the next six to 12 months vaccinating everyone who hasn’t been vaccinated.


----------



## moXJO (13 September 2021)

Screw the modelling- this bastards opening. So batten down the hatches if you ain't prepared. Between an economic implosion, or a thousand deaths. Well the government has made its choice.


----------



## sptrawler (13 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Screw the modelling- this bastards opening. So batten down the hatches if you ain't prepared. Between an economic implosion, or a thousand deaths. Well the government has made its choice.



What do you think will happen? You're there, you have a feel for it, we've discussed it endlessly on the forum.


----------



## wayneL (14 September 2021)

Another ray of hope


----------



## moXJO (14 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What do you think will happen? You're there, you have a feel for it, we've discussed it endlessly on the forum.



Everyone has lockdown fatigue. It's more community numbness than anger. No one really is paying attention to the hospitals. Which is why I recommend getting the vax now. You cannot put this back in the bottle, so vax as many as they can to try and stem the tide.

I think hospitals will overfill and we get deaths. But it times out with the summer months. So realistically it's lucky in the timing. Some of the other states that tried locking down hard are only going to prolong the inevitable into next winter.

Everyone here is vaxxing to avoid restrictions. Young people especially. The only people that care about the virus are journos. And those sht mongers have so far got everything wrong.


----------



## IFocus (14 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> So as long as you call it modelling, it doesn't matter where it comes from, priceless. 👍
> Who is OzSAGE?
> Should the Government use their modelling to decide their course of action?
> Or are they another "new science group"that fits in with your perception? Of canning any Government, as long as it isn't a labor Government.
> ...





I didn't look as its an opinion and as for the government NSW and Federal they make up there own story then say they are following the modelling / health advice  or national plan and then wont release the advice.

WayneL and others have blocked me which has been wonderful  win win 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (14 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Everyone has lockdown fatigue. It's more community numbness than anger. No one really is paying attention to the hospitals. Which is why I recommend getting the vax now. You cannot put this back in the bottle, so vax as many as they can to try and stem the tide.
> 
> I think hospitals will overfill and we get deaths. But it times out with the summer months. So realistically it's lucky in the timing. Some of the other states that tried locking down hard are only going to prolong the inevitable into next winter.
> 
> Everyone here is vaxxing to avoid restrictions. Young people especially. The only people that care about the virus are journos. And those sht mongers have so far got everything wrong.



I think the way it has panned out has saved the Governments ar$e, the hesitancy issue would have resulted in a huge amount of wasted vaccine as it would have expired, so now the rush to get vaccinated has started and the vaccine is arriving. Pure ar$e IMO. 🤣


----------



## moXJO (14 September 2021)

Add to that business is dying hard. NSW needs to reopen. Kids need to go back to school.

I'll say this as well. After the first few weeks  I thought that the lax lockdown was a mistake. Now I'm glad they went with it. Melbourne's experience shows this ain't the same virus as before and that even "ring of steel" lockdowns are harder to control. 

Added to that: many states will be slow tracking and premiers will be eating their words. The hard talk of "lockdowns" is over (who knows for how long though). 

Nsw has been relatively lucky so far. We had a lot go our way in one sense. Deaths so far have been low. I suspect the vaccine passports will be short lived and just used as a scare tactic. But we won't know till we start stripping away some of these police state rules.

 I just hope shops can restock before Christmas. It should be absolutely crazy on reopen.


----------



## over9k (14 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Add to that business is dying hard. NSW needs to reopen. Kids need to go back to school.
> 
> I'll say this as well. After the first few weeks  I thought that the lax lockdown was a mistake. Now I'm glad they went with it. Melbourne's experience shows this ain't the same virus as before and that even "ring of steel" lockdowns are harder to control.
> 
> ...



Which shops? 

You mean food places etc?


----------



## DB008 (14 September 2021)

The biggest issue has been supply. Plenty of supply coming online now. The whole vax thing doesn't bother me. Had all of my shots growing up, whats the difference now (without getting into politics and whatnot) ?


----------



## moXJO (14 September 2021)

over9k said:


> Which shops?
> 
> You mean food places etc?



Jb hifi, harvey Norman, outdoor/camping stores, toy stores, hell even kmart is shut here.
Restaurants are busy doing take out. But eating out at restaurants will explode. Singles are getting ready to date. Barbers and hairdressers have been shut for about 7 weeks and I look like a mop. 
Clothes shops, gyms of any kind. Cafes, zoos, entertainment.

 It's a long list. Plenty to profit from for the entrepreneurs.


----------



## over9k (14 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Jb hifi, harvey Norman, outdoor/camping stores, toy stores, hell even kmart is shut here.
> Restaurants are busy doing take out. But eating out at restaurants will explode. Singles are getting ready to date. Barbers and hairdressers have been shut for about 7 weeks and I look like a mop.
> Clothes shops, gyms of any kind. Cafes, zoos, entertainment.
> 
> It's a long list. Plenty to profit from for the entrepreneurs.



Entertainment & services I could understand, but jb hifi etc? All that stuff is just being ordered online surely?


----------



## moXJO (14 September 2021)

over9k said:


> Entertainment & services I could understand, but jb hifi etc? All that stuff is just being ordered online surely?



Na physical stores have run out of items for local click and collection. Problem is the same item is out of stock in other stores. Certain headphones as well. I don't see them having the stock come Christmas.


----------



## over9k (14 September 2021)

I wonder how much of that is everyone knowing how slow the post is at the moment though? 

I've bought a couple of things in person/off the shelf despite it costing more because I knew ordering it online would take forever.


----------



## moXJO (14 September 2021)

over9k said:


> I wonder how much of that is everyone knowing how slow the post is at the moment though?
> 
> I've bought a couple of things in person/off the shelf despite it costing more because I knew ordering it online would take forever.



Or possibly stores cutting back on expenses?
Eg save on deliveries all the way down the chain. Running skeleton staff etc


----------



## wayneL (15 September 2021)

More of what the outside world thinks of the Australian tyrrany.









						When a Western Society Goes Insane | National Review
					

Australia’s COVID response is a warning for how easily core freedoms can erode away in even a well-established democracy.



					www.nationalreview.com


----------



## wayneL (15 September 2021)

Surely by now, anyone with an IQ higher than their shoe size realises that these people are just taking the p155


----------



## mullokintyre (15 September 2021)

Is there an equivalent to google translate for youtube???
Mick


----------



## wayneL (15 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Is there an equivalent to google translate for youtube???
> Mick



@qldfrog might be able to help?


----------



## qldfrog (15 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Is there an equivalent to google translate for youtube???
> Mick



not aware of any tool.
, for the clip shown above, it is all politician team behind R Muselier..(funny as his name comes from a museliere (muzzle )..irony) Southern france region PACA(Provence-cote d azur)
All rushing for masks before the TV shot while celebrating their victory at the region election last month.

he got into isolation 30/08 as he caught covid even with his two shots..https://www.lci.fr/politique/quatri...aud-muselier-positif-au-covid-19-2194979.html

yeap nothing surprising


----------



## basilio (15 September 2021)

DB008 said:


> The biggest issue has been supply. Plenty of supply coming online now. The whole vax thing doesn't bother me. Had all of my shots growing up, *whats the difference now *(without getting into politics and whatnot) ?




For the last 25 years there has been an ongoing anti-vax movement. Remember when people were saying that vaccines were making children autistic ? That research turned out to be faked with the researcher having been paid 435,000 pounds to come up with the story.

Nonetheless the core of people who insisted vaccines were still dangerous has  continued to grow,









						Do Vaccines Cause Autism?
					

There’s a lot of talk in the media about vaccines and autism. Are they linked? WebMD sorts fact from fiction.




					www.webmd.com
				











						Do Vaccines Cause Autism? | History of Vaccines
					

Autism rates in developing countries have risen remarkably in the past 20 years. For children born in 1992, according to the U.S. CDC, about 1 in 150 would be diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD). For children born in 2004,…




					www.historyofvaccines.org


----------



## wayneL (15 September 2021)

basilio said:


> For the last 25 years there has been an ongoing anti-vax movement. Remember when people were saying that vaccines were making children autistic ? That research turned out to be faked with the researcher having been paid 435,000 pounds to come up with the story.
> 
> Nonetheless the core of people who insisted vaccines were still dangerous has  continued to grow,
> 
> ...



Bas, while certainly some are in fact part of that antivax movement, In fact the majority of people not wishing or hesitant to get the CV vax are not anti vaxxers at all. 

Like myself they have had an array of vaccinations previously... Mumps measles chickenpox polio tetanus etcetera... And very happy to have had all of those.

Therefore to call these people anti vaxxers is both childish and incorrect and actually quite a disgusting smear.... not untypical of today's toxic politics, particularly of the left.


----------



## moXJO (15 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Bas, while certainly some are in fact part of that antivax movement, I *fart* the majority of people not wishing or hesitant to get the CV vax are not anti vaxxers at all.



Wayne your autocorrect is set on "dad joke" mode.


----------



## wayneL (15 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Wayne your autocorrect is set on "dad joke" mode.



OMG, LMAO. How I hate autocorrect.... Edited


----------



## bellenuit (15 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Is there an equivalent to google translate for youtube???
> Mick




If the YouTube video has subtitles, then you can use a tool called "Language Extensions for Chrome". There is a version for YouTube and for Netflix. This may be overkill for your needs, but a great facility for languages. It only works on a desktop with Chrome browser and the Chrome browser is supported on MacOs as well as Windows. If you prefer other browsers, then  you only need to use Chrome for the language learning stuff and your favourite browser for the rest. I use it to learn German and it is terrific.

Rather than describe what the extension does, here is a video on it. This shows the version for Netflix, but the version for YouTube is the same.


----------



## basilio (15 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Bas, while certainly some are in fact part of that antivax movement, In fact the majority of people not wishing or hesitant to get the CV vax are not anti vaxxers at all.
> 
> Like myself they have had an array of vaccinations previously... Mumps measles chickenpox polio tetanus etcetera... And very happy to have had all of those.
> 
> Therefore to call these people anti vaxxers is both childish and incorrect and actually quite a disgusting smear.... not untypical of today's toxic politics, particularly of the left.




There is a bit of nuance here Wayne. My response to DB was with regard to how the anti-vaxxer movement was started and built a very big presence from 1994-5 onwards. There were a few consequences

1) A community developed that undermined public confidence in vaccination to the point that vaccination rates for children against mumps. measles ect fell substantially. So clearly the messaging and effectiveness of this core was there.

2) When COVID came and then the  relatively rapid development of vaccines *there was now an active, articulate community that was determined to undermine the COVID vaccines. * I suggest this has been a major factor in poisoning the well.

So the messaging against the COVID vaccines didn't start from zero. What has also occurred has been a deepening rejection of "medical authorities" as legitimate information sources and an acceptance of a range of alternatives as just as good if not better. Those alternatives have ranged from believing in God, accepting MMS treatment  (Miracle Mineral solutions *bleach*) as cures, promoting natural immunity - no need for vaccines, undermining the risks of COVID.

And on top of that there are conspiracy theories around  George Soros,  5G, Q Anon,  vaccines have secret trackers.  A number of these have been highlighted on ASF.

In the end they come down to  a diverse chorus of people undermining vaccines as a critical part of protecting our community against a dangerous disease.


----------



## wayneL (15 September 2021)

basilio said:


> There is a bit of nuance here Wayne. My response to DB was with regard to how the anti-vaxxer movement was started and built a very big presence from 1994-5 onwards. There were a few consequences
> 
> 1) A community developed that undermined public confidence in vaccination to the point that vaccination rates for children against mumps. measles ect fell substantially. So clearly the messaging and effectiveness of this core was there.
> 
> ...



I'm not disputing any of that about the true anti vaxxers. What I'm concerned about is the lumping together as anti vaxxers people who have some concerns about the covid vax and hence are waiting for further information, or based on current data don't see it as a good risk reward proposition.

The language being used is only serving to divide our society over a medical procedure which does not have any long-term data available.

And that my friend is entirely toxic and unscientific.


----------



## basilio (15 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> The language being used is only serving to divide our society over a medical procedure which does not have any long-term data available.




Indeed it doesn't have "long term data". There is a risk.  But what we do know is that COVID is a dangerous disease which left unchecked will/does cause widespread death and illness.

It is the balance of risks that drives the need to vaccinate now.


----------



## sptrawler (15 September 2021)

The NSW vaccine uptake is still going strong.


----------



## basilio (16 September 2021)

Albertas Health care system is facing collapse as rapidly rising COVID cases from unvaccinated people is overtaking hospital beds. They currently have 71% of people totally vaccinated which is the lowest in Canada. 









						Opinion: Alberta's health-care system a month away from failure
					

Alberta, we are in a COVID crisis that is likely to overwhelm our hospitals and ICUs by the beginning of October. We are very close to requiring triage to…




					edmontonjournal.com
				











						Canada: Alberta healthcare system on verge of collapse as Covid cases and anti-vax sentiments rise
					

A province that has long boasted of its loose coronavirus restrictions has also been the site of North America’s highest caseloads




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (16 September 2021)

Trends in Australia's COVID infection









						Experts plead for major vaccine change
					

Medical experts have urged for a shift in the focus of the vaccine rollout after a concerning trend has emerged across Australian hospitals.




					www.news.com.au
				




_Using data on the vaccination status of nearly 700 Covid-19-positive people admitted to intensive care wards in Australia, SPRINT-SARI revealed that the vaccine was extremely effective at preventing serious illness from Covid-19.

Of the 574 people with Covid-19 who were admitted to intensive care with a known vaccination status, more than 85 per cent were unvaccinated against the virus.

Meanwhile, just 12 per cent of those admitted to the ICU had received one dose of the vaccine, and only 2 per cent had received both doses.

“These figures again underscore just how much protection vaccinations offer in terms of your likelihood of getting seriously unwell with Covid-19,” Professor Cheng said._


----------



## mullokintyre (16 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Trends in Australia's COVID infection
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats what i like.
Real world data. So much better than models.
The problem is that sometimes we pick and choose which datasets we accept.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (17 September 2021)

Check this out.  This was filmed in 2014 and everything has played out largely like he said... Basically "they" told us they were going to do this.

We've all been played for schmucks.


----------



## basilio (17 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Check this out.  This was filmed in 2014 and everything has played out largely like he said... Basically "they" told us they were going to do this.
> 
> We've all been played for schmucks.





There you are. Another one of Waynes careful, sober sources of information....


----------



## mullokintyre (17 September 2021)

So, anyone still thinks that there is not a class divide in australia needs only look at a couple of recent events.
From ABC NEWS


> Canterbury Bankstown Mayor Khal Asfour raised a perceived double standard in restrictions and policing on a Q+A episode which tackled the cracks appearing between Western Sydney and the rest of the city.
> 
> He highlighted the case of people who were arrested for attending an outdoor funeral, admittedly in breach of the 10-person limit, compared to those who were seen visiting beaches at the weekend.
> 
> ...



Secondly, from The Age


> The state government has defended its decision to authorise the total shutdown of Melbourne’s CBD amid criticism that the tactic, designed to stymie a planned anti-lockdown protest, is excessive.
> 
> Premier Daniel Andrews on Thursday stood by the decision to halt public transport into the city for six hours between 8am to 2pm on Saturday, a move which was asked for by Victoria Police



In the meantime this morning, obviously no police present when the CFMEU organised a protest against the Vic Govs imposition of banning smoko from tea rooms.
News .com au


> Melbourne’s tradies have taken to the streets in a bizarre way on Friday morning to protest against the closure of tea rooms on construction sites.
> Premier Daniel Andrews revealed tea rooms on worksites needed to be closed due to the increasing risk of Covid-19 transmission within the construction industry.
> 
> On Friday, workers took their smoko and lunch break to the street to protest against the new rule.
> ...




Maybe the police are scared of the CFMEU .
Animal farm is alive and well.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (17 September 2021)

basilio said:


> There you are. Another one of Waynes careful, sober sources of information....



Well go ahead and debunk it if you can


----------



## basilio (17 September 2021)

With regard to curfews, escape and The Sounds of Sirens.


----------



## wayneL (17 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well go ahead and debunk it if you can



 I'm waiting @basilio 

The investigative journalist cites a document from the Rockefeller Foundation (inter alia) which details probably at least 80% of the scenario that we find ourselves under.

I find that "interesting" at least, especially with all the other interesting information that is out there in the open from the likes of Davos etc.

When these extra-governmental organisations actually have printed and or videographic documents are out there in plain sight, don't you think we should at least consider them in a body of evidence?

A clever jingle isn't going to cut it, my friend. Let's see you stump up with some fair dinkum evidence to the contrary.


----------



## basilio (17 September 2021)

This is what is happening in the real world. Check it out and consider carefully when people try to say COVID is not that serious, that  real, that significant.

Don’t believe the Covid coping spin, those on the road know the health system is in meltdown​A paramedic


I’m a paramedic in south-west Sydney. I don’t recognise hospitals any more – it all feels very apocalyptic




‘The biggest problem for ambulances at the moment is workload,’ says one south-west Sydney paramedic, who believes the Covid outbreak has overwhelmed the health system. Photograph: Bianca de Marchi/AAP
Fri 17 Sep 2021 02.12 BST
Last modified on Fri 17 Sep 2021 04.59 BST
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...now-the-health-system-is-in-meltdown#comments
143
Regardless of who they get to speak at the sanitised press conferences, no one has come close to describing the strain the healthcare system is feeling. It’s buckling.

Every day I come to work as a paramedic in south-west Sydney, things have ramped up. They are retrofitting sections within the hospital to deal with the overflow of Covid patients. I don’t recognise the hospitals any more, it all feels very apocalyptic.

The reports suggest children don’t get too sick with Covid which is true, but the downside is their parents do, which sometimes leaves us in a tricky spot.

The other night I had a single parent with two kids under 10. They were all Covid-positive and the mum was very unwell, very short of breath. I could not convince her to come to hospital as she didn’t want to be separated from her kids (we would have had to take them to the children’s hospital separately).

I had to coach her eight-year-old daughter how to recognise respiratory distress and told her to sleep in her mum’s bed. She said she knew how to call 000 and she knew her address, but putting that burden on an eight-year-old was heartbreaking.









						Don’t believe the Covid coping spin, those on the road know the health system is in meltdown | A paramedic
					

I’m a paramedic in south-west Sydney. I don’t recognise hospitals any more – it all feels very apocalyptic




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (17 September 2021)

basilio said:


> This is what is happening in the real world. Check it out and consider carefully when people try to say COVID is not that serious, that  real, that significant.
> 
> Don’t believe the Covid coping spin, those on the road know the health system is in meltdown​A paramedic
> 
> ...



P
R
O
P
A
G
A
N
D
A

PS still waiting @basilio


----------



## basilio (17 September 2021)

Tiger, Lion , Donkey.


----------



## wayneL (17 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Tiger, Lion , Donkey.



Waiting, waiting.............


----------



## sptrawler (17 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Waiting, waiting.............



I'm still to be convinced, why people who don't want to travel need to be vaccinated, other than wanting to make those who are vaccinated feel better about it.


----------



## wayneL (17 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I'm still to be convinced, why people who don't want to travel need to be vaccinated, other than wanting to make those who are vaccinated feel better about it.



I seem to have exposed with our friend @basilio, it is more about the narrative then the facts of the matter.

To what end, becomes the pertinent question. 

Once all the bulshit is stripped away from this, the few conclusions one can arrive at, become very interesting indeed.


----------



## IFocus (17 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I'm still to be convinced, why people who don't want to travel need to be vaccinated, other than wanting to make those who are vaccinated feel better about it.





Hospitalisation rates, then in the hospitals you get carry over infections to cancer patient's, autoimmune patients etc.

If your ICUs are full of COVID patients where do all the usual ICU patients go?


----------



## sptrawler (17 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> Hospitalisation rates, then in the hospitals you get carry over infections to cancer patient's, autoimmune patients etc.
> 
> If your ICUs are full of COVID patients where do all the usual ICU patients go?



Vaccination rates are heading well over 80%, why keep on hammering those that chose not to vaccinate, when do you say "ok it's your choice"?
My wife and I have had the first shot, about 8 weeks ago, the wife for the last six weeks has had a really bad chest flemy cough and has just started antibiotics on Tuesday.
We actually drove up to Rockingham on Thursday to the covid clinic so she could be tested, it came back clear.
Now it just might be coincidence, but we've been together 47 years, she is as fit as hell and has never had a flu like this.
Coincidence? I don't think so, I haven't caught it off her, I've had no issues, yet we're together 24/7 and really don't socialise at all other than with the daughter and two grandkids. They haven't caught it off the wife either.


----------



## basilio (18 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> *Vaccination rates are heading well over 80%, *why keep on hammering those that chose not to vaccinate, when do you say "ok it's your choice"?




I don't believe that's the case SP.  After all ScoMo said when we reach 80% vaxxed we can start  opening up. We are a long way off 80%.

The point about promoting/urging/helping as many people as possible to vaccinate has many rationales.

1) *People are social. *We respond to the influence of our peers. Keeping up the messaging will move many people to finally get vaxxed

2) *The idea that 80% vaccination is sufficient to keep COVID under control is proving unrealistic. *There are now enough examples around the world of countries with high vax rates but  COVID is still spreading and  those who are not vaxxed are getting very sick and dying. Which leads to :

3) *When the unvaxxed get very sick with COVID it leads to excessve strains on the health system all of us need access to. * As it stands our medical facilities work very hard to deal with the normal range of cancers, accidents, heart attacks and other  illneses.  It needs a rampant highly infectious disease aka COVID like a hole in the head.

4) *Finally allowing COVID to still spread across the community just quickens the creation of new strains of the disease. * We already know how dangerous the new strains are. We can't have a strain that basically laughs at vaccines or becomes even more virulent.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 September 2021)

There is a very interesting government run Covid statistics site found here at COVID Live.
You can select stats by state.
In the case of NSW,
There were 14,272 active cases , of which 1219  (around 8.5%) were in hospital, 233 in ICU of which 123 were on ventilators.
So in NSW at least, you have a 1.6% chance of ending up in ICU, and 0.9% chance of ending up on a ventilator.
One of the  stats that jumped out at me was that  the percentage of both full and partial vaxed people in ICU has gone from 16% a week ago to 26%as reported today. That is significantly higher than I would have expected, even given that the number of ICU patients vaxed will go up as the total percentage of people goes up. 
However, that increase is much higher than I would have expected.

The figures for Victoria  read that of the 5,000 odd cases,  207 or 4.1% were hospitalised, 56 or 1.1% were in ICU, and 40 or  0.8% were on ventilators. Interestingly, in Victoria at least,  zero patients in ICU were vaxed (either one or two doses).
I wish I could explain this vast difference between Vic and NSW for Vaxed patients in ICU, but of the top of  my head can't think of reason to explain this big difference.
But it does show how Victoria, after a disastrous start, has managed to improve their efficacy of treatment.
NSW  has had 282 deaths from their 50,000 odd cases, a mortality rate of 0.6.
Thanks to the  800 + deaths from Victorias first round of Covid, Victoria has had 830 deaths from 28,000 cases, a mortality rate of  3.
This has improved significantly since that first round.
Mick


----------



## macca (18 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> There is a very interesting government run Covid statistics site found here at COVID Live.
> You can select stats by state.
> In the case of NSW,
> There were 14,272 active cases , of which 1219  (around 8.5%) were in hospital, 233 in ICU of which 123 were on ventilators.
> ...




Interesting post, we need to remember that these figures are coming from people who have been offered no health assistance at all, the current advice is to take Panadol etc


----------



## sptrawler (18 September 2021)

basilio said:


> I don't believe that's the case SP.  After all ScoMo said when we reach 80% vaxxed we can start  opening up. We are a long way off 80%.
> 
> The point about promoting/urging/helping as many people as possible to vaccinate has many rationales.



NSW is by for the biggest population State, they are now over 80% first vaccination, so as I said *we are well on our way to 80%.*
The trajectory of the uptake is such, that the East coast will be over 80% by Christmas, so IMO we are well on our way to having most who want to be vaccinated done.
So I repeat, why keep hammering those who don't want to have some new technological fluid injected into them? If I was 20 years younger I would be flicking the bird as well, until i started seeing some real evidence it is all in my best interest.





__





						SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Elicits Cell Signaling in Human Host Cells: Implications for Possible Consequences of COVID-19 Vaccines
					





					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				






















Obviously some are never going to conform, which in reality is their right, if they don't want to be vaccinated and are prepared to take their chances with covid so be it. Is it any different to smoking, drinking, taking drugs? this is a viral infection that kills very few young people, why force them to have a vaccine?
Now they are saying the mRNA is good to go with 6-12 year olds, I mean really? What the hell is going on, it isn't the black plague yet.
Things are getting very weird.









						Anti-lockdown protesters gather in Richmond after police lock down CBD
					

Hundreds of protesters have converged despite limits on travel in and out of Melbourne by public transport and car.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## basilio (18 September 2021)

Covid is not like smoking or drinking or taking drugs. These are ongoing voluntary activities which aren't "infectious" . They also don't morph into more dangerous strains.

 In any case we do have ongoing social messaging campaigns against smoking and excessive drinking becasue society recognises they are dangerous. And we have banned cigarette advertising for that reason.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________

The point about promoting/urging/helping as many people as possible to vaccinate has many rationales.

1) *People are social. *We respond to the influence of our peers. Keeping up the messaging will move many people to finally get vaxxed

2) *The idea that 80% vaccination is sufficient to keep COVID under control is proving unrealistic. *There are now enough examples around the world of countries with high vax rates but  COVID is still spreading and  those who are not vaxxed are getting very sick and dying. Which leads to :

3) *When the unvaxxed get very sick with COVID it leads to excessve strains on the health system all of us need access to. * As it stands our medical facilities work very hard to deal with the normal range of cancers, accidents, heart attacks and other  illneses.   It needs a rampant highly infectious disease aka COVID like a hole in the head.

4) *Finally allowing COVID to still spread across the community just quickens the creation of new strains of the disease. * We already know how dangerous the new strains are. We can't have a strain that basically laughs at vaccines or becomes even more virulent.


----------



## sptrawler (18 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Covid is not like smoking or drinking or taking drugs. These are ongoing voluntary activities which aren't "infectious" . They also don't morph into more dangerous strains.
> 
> In any case we do have ongoing social messaging campaigns against smoking and excessive drinking becasue society recognises they are dangerous. And we have banned cigarette advertising for that reason.
> 
> ...



Did you read this part of the post Bas?
Like I said, at my age who cares, if I was 20 years younger I would.





__





						SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Elicits Cell Signaling in Human Host Cells: Implications for Possible Consequences of COVID-19 Vaccines
					





					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## basilio (18 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Did you read this part of the post Bas?
> Like I said, at my age who cares, if I was 20 years younger I would.
> 
> 
> ...




So how serious is this possibility of something going wrong with the spike protein ?  Has it caused significant rethinking about the safety of the vaccine ?  Does it happen with Astra Zenneca or just the Pfizer vacs ?

I don't know enough to be an authority. I'm sincerely hoping the people who test and check the vaccines  are making good decisions.

On history alone I'm sure there will be some bad consequences on some people. That has already happened.  The issue is balance of risk. What are the  overall likely consequences of not vaccinating vs vaccination.


----------



## sptrawler (18 September 2021)

basilio said:


> So how serious is this possibility of something going wrong with the spike protein ?  Has it caused significant rethinking about the safety of the vaccine ?  Does it happen with Astra Zenneca or just the Pfizer vacs ?
> 
> I don't know enough to be an authority. I'm sincerely hoping the people who test and check the vaccines  are making good decisions.
> 
> On history alone I'm sure there will be some bad consequences on some people. That has already happened.  The issue is balance of risk. What are the  overall likely consequences of not vaccinating vs vaccination.



I don't know either, but I know if I was a lot younger, I would be a lot more concerned. 
As for how serious is this possibility of something going wrong with the spike protein, I'm not sure the human body, has had spike protein injected into it before.
Also I know I'm not going to berate people, to just shut the F$%k up and take the vaccine, because I'm not convinced they know, if it is the magic formulae they say it is.
As the article says, it is new, it is relatively untested and it needs to be closely monitored.


----------



## IFocus (18 September 2021)

On the % vaccinated its not total population is it?

Closer to 60%?

So I think currently 50% breakthrough for vaccinated (Delta that can be spread) then add 40% more people unvaccinated plus the anti vaxs you end up with a very large group all ready for ICU.

It will be interesting where it all goes.

This is going to get messy and the politics ugly IMHO.


----------



## Belli (19 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I don't know either, but I know if I was a lot younger, I would be a lot more concerned.
> As for how serious is this possibility of something going wrong with the spike protein, I'm not sure the human body, has had spike protein injected into it before.
> Also I know I'm not going to berate people, to just shut the F$%k up and take the vaccine, because I'm not convinced they know, if it is the magic formulae they say it is.
> As the article says, it is new, it is relatively untested and it needs to be closely monitored.




I'm comfortable with the process.  Thing is the article is published.  It isn't just the likes of you and me who can read it but 100's if not thousands of those with expertise in the field.  They will go through this and other publications with a fine tooth comb putting it through the wringer.  It's how they do it.  The concept a vaccine which may be dangerous is recommended for the population is ludicrous. These guys and gals are one of the most cautious groups around.

Anyways, a site I found interesting.





__





						Loading...
					





					www.doherty.edu.au
				




This particular article touched on spike proteins in vaccines.





__





						Loading...
					





					www.doherty.edu.au


----------



## Belli (19 September 2021)

People are freaking out about the wrong thing. Oh what about this or that vaccine, what will it do to me in x number of year's time, blah, blah, blah and more blah.

Put your large freaking hat on over a virus which actually gets into your blood stream, causing blood clots which can result in heart attacks, strokes and possibly damage to every organ of your body.


----------



## sptrawler (19 September 2021)

Belli said:


> People are freaking out about the wrong thing. Oh what about this or that vaccine, what will it do to me in x number of year's time, blah, blah, blah and more blah.
> 
> Put your large freaking hat on over a virus which actually gets into your blood stream, causing blood clots which can result in heart attacks, strokes and possibly damage to every organ of your body.



All I'm saying is, it is a very personal choice and more and more are choosing to get vaccinated, I think that those who don't wish to shouldn't be brow beaten into submission.


----------



## Belli (19 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> All I'm saying is, it is a very personal choice and more and more are choosing to get vaccinated, I think that those who don't wish to shouldn't be brow beaten into submission.




Certainly not disagreeing with your view.  I have, however, noticed a trend which has been building for some time.  It was quiet at first but the clamour is getting louder and it's coming in some cases from small business operators.  Obviously it's only anecdotal but some I've spoken to are really p***** off with those hesitant to get vaccinated.  One I know let go one of her staff who did not wish to be vaccinated - "I'm already struggling to keep going and I don't need more stress and possible OH&S liability."

Whether or not that was the correct decision is not for me to say but it does appear to me there is a changing work/social dynamic at play here.


----------



## macca (19 September 2021)

Dr Fauci must read ASF after all, a bit of info starting to circulate on Vit D, 

something that everyone can do at no cost in OZ is get some sunshine

Anthony Fauci, MD, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, suggested in September 2020 that vitamin D could help fight COVID-19. He also estimated that 40% of the U.S. population is vitamin D deficient. Scientists in this new study were able to prove that novel and physiologically relevant vitamin D and lumisterol derivatives “act on multiple targets, suggesting that they may be effective against original and mutant strains of SARS-CoV-2.” Other benefits of vitamin D cited by researchers include its low cost and easy access. Andrzej T. Slominski, MD, PhD, a senior author of the study, described lumisterol as a natural product.









						Vitamin D Emerges as Possible Treatment for COVID-19
					

Promising new data from a recent study indicates that active forms of vitamin D can inhibit the replication and expansion of COVID-19.




					www.newswise.com


----------



## Belli (19 September 2021)

macca said:


> something that everyone can do at no cost in OZ is get some sunshine




That ain't the form of Vitamin D referred to.

I read somewhere there is 20 or so trials going on researching the use of Vitamin D in the treatment of Covid.  Some looking at which stage, eg mild to severe, in which it may be useful to further examine its use.  It isn't being looked at as an approach to prevent contracting Covid as far as I am aware.


----------



## macca (19 September 2021)

Belli said:


> That ain't the form of Vitamin D referred to.
> 
> I read somewhere there is 20 or so trials going on researching the use of Vitamin D in the treatment of Covid.  Some looking at which stage, eg mild to severe, in which it may be useful to further examine its use.  It isn't being looked at as an approach to prevent contracting Covid as far as I am aware.




No, it won't stop you from getting it but other research shows that those with higher Vit D levels do better at fighting it.

Low Vit D levels have a higher rate of ICU in those that go to hospital

It is free and easy or we can supplement, it is still cheap and works on all Upper Respiratory infections so it has always been a no brainer for those who know and understand immunity support


----------



## qldfrog (20 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> There is a very interesting government run Covid statistics site found here at COVID Live.
> You can select stats by state.
> In the case of NSW,
> There were 14,272 active cases , of which 1219  (around 8.5%) were in hospital, 233 in ICU of which 123 were on ventilators.
> ...



Isn't it scary that nsw has not been able to learn how to treat cases properly from obviously not only OS experience, but also just Victoria' next door
I hoped doctors would learn from wurooe experience.
putting people on ventilation is BAD. A last resort. But good for gov propaganda..scare the **** out of the public and increases death rate..double win....


----------



## qldfrog (20 September 2021)

Belli said:


> People are freaking out about the wrong thing. Oh what about this or that vaccine, what will it do to me in x number of year's time, blah, blah, blah and more blah.
> 
> Put your large freaking hat on over a virus which actually gets into your blood stream, causing blood clots which can result in heart attacks, strokes and possibly damage to every organ of your body.



Last part about the jab or the virus?

Ooohh both..
Where i join you is that i think both virus and jab do what you quote at the end.
so maybe I am not worse off with the jab than catching the virus.
Just maybe at my age and the reason got my first az shot as needed to one day ? be able to get out of this country
But not so sure now, the experience from my family who caught the actual virus is similar to my jab , but they fully recovered.i am not 100% yet
no 20y old with heart damaged with covid..well not many, i am sure you can always find a poor bugger Whereas with Pfizer...
So if you are young.run..do not get the jab is definitely my advice and should be any ethical doctor ones.
After,well ethics and medecines.....


----------



## qldfrog (20 September 2021)

Belli said:


> Certainly not disagreeing with your view.  I have, however, noticed a trend which has been building for some time.  It was quiet at first but the clamour is getting louder and it's coming in some cases from small business operators.  Obviously it's only anecdotal but some I've spoken to are really p***** off with those hesitant to get vaccinated.  One I know let go one of her staff who did not wish to be vaccinated - "I'm already struggling to keep going and I don't need more stress and possible OH&S liability."
> 
> Whether or not that was the correct decision is not for me to say but it does appear to me there is a changing work/social dynamic at play here.



A quiet achiever of propaganda and repression dictature.
A short stay in China with a mention of Tien amen square would quickly show you how the above works...
No surprise


----------



## basilio (20 September 2021)

COVID illnesses are rapidly taking  over medical resources in the US.  Australia is only a few weeks behind.

The physical and emotional pressure on hospitals and ICU staff is taking  a heavy toll on doctors, nurses and all heath care employees. From a purely self interested POV  we want to have access to hospitals if/when something goes wrong with us or a loved one. If these hospitals are at bursting point with ill COVID patients that  won't  happen. That's not theoretical. It is happening everywhere COVID has got out of control.

The discussion about  when we can open up our communities centres around the risks of steeply increasing infections and illnesses amongst *unvaccinated* people.  Vaccinated people can catch COVID but to date the severity of the illnesses is far less.

Two stories on this that are worth considering. The first one is Sydney now. The second one reflects the US experience which is what happens when COVID does get out of control.









						Inside COVID ICU: 'No one wants to know how bad the situation really is'
					

Behind the daily case numbers, this is what our frontline health workers see day in, day out — but be warned, it's confronting, grim and exhausting.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						Doctors treating unvaccinated Covid patients are succumbing to compassion fatigue
					

Exhausted healthcare workers admit they feel demoralized as the fourth surge spreads across the US




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Belli (20 September 2021)

Idaho - not the place to be right now.



> On Sept. 16, 2021, Crisis Standards of Care (CSC) was activated statewide in Idaho.
> 
> Receiving care in a hospital room that was previously used as a classroom, or in a hallway or a tent.
> Fewer nurses  and doctors taking care of more patients.
> ...








__





						Crisis Standards of Care | Idaho Department of Health and Welfare
					






					healthandwelfare.idaho.gov


----------



## sptrawler (20 September 2021)

Looks to me like Melbourne isn't the place to be right now, the natives appear to be getting restless.








						Horror protest moment shown on video
					

Shocking video has emerged of police appearing to push over an older woman during the violent anti-lockdown protests in Melbourne over the weekend.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (20 September 2021)

I don't understand why those who still want lockdowns, restricted access etc, let their own lives rule the level of access.
If you are not happy with what the general population has determined is the level of vaccination they are willing to tolerate, have your own personal lockdown.
Don't go out of your house. Don't go to  sporting events or cultural activities, don't  go to the beach, don't go to funerals or church services.
But if the people who provide the services are willing to open, let them open , let the people  attend who want to do so.
Its now widely accepted that we will not be able to eliminate the virus (at least not in the short to medium term).
As i have said, the ones most often calling for continued lockdowns and restrictions are mostly those who are least affected by it.
They have not lost jobs, businesses or their savings.
Let them live like hermits and let the rest of us get on with whats left of our lives.
approaching 70, I am in one of the groups who would be most susceptible to death from the virus, but that applies to most of the diseases, activities, lifestyles etc that are applicable.
 I am doomed to die of something,  but I sure as hell want to make the most of the life have left.
I accept risk levels daily- I mean I still drive, i still fly planes, I drink beer and wine, eat cheese,  have full cream milk amd probabluy do a heap of other things that have a level of risk. 
I accepted the risk that I could have had adverse effects from a hastily developed virus.
There are those who won't accept those risks.
Thats fine, thats their choice.
But don't impose your risk profile on me.
And that is what the likes of the medical professionals , the politicians, political commentators and god knows who else want to impose on everyone.
Mick


----------



## Belli (20 September 2021)

Yep, absolutely.  Of course activities such as drinking, etc while having a level of risk are not transmissible to other people.  Unlike the virus.

So when out and about as you wish I am sure you will not cause another person to become infected.    You don't have that right.


----------



## mullokintyre (20 September 2021)

On


Belli said:


> Yep, absolutely.  Of course activities such as drinking, etc while having a level of risk are not transmissible to other people.  Unlike the virus.
> 
> So when out and about as you wish I am sure you will not cause another person to become infected.    You don't have that right.



If the people who are scared of the virus are out and about they have accepted that risk. 
They can impose their own private lockdown should they wish.
What I don't want is THEM saying i can't go out coz I might infect them.
If they are scared of my double dosed vaxed person infecting them let them stay indoors.
If they are scared of people who are NOT vaxed, once again let them have their own personal lockdown, that is their choice.
If I am willing to risk being infected by someone, whether they have been vaxed or not, that is my personal choice.
The argument that everyone should lock down is totally illogical.

Mick


----------



## Belli (20 September 2021)

You completely missed my point.  However, I expected that would be the case.

And by the way I'm not a fan of lockdowns either.


----------



## mullokintyre (20 September 2021)

Belli said:


> You completely missed my point.  However, I expected that would be the case.
> 
> And by the way I'm not a fan of lockdowns either.



So what was your point?
You said 


> So when out and about as you wish I am sure you will not cause another person to become infected. You don't have that right.



To what were you referring when you said I don't have that right?
The right to what? 
Infect someone? 
Not Infect someone?
Your are the one missing the point.
People do not need to worry about whether they may be infected by me or anyone else if they have their own personal lockdown.
The rest of us can get on with our lives unimpeded by the doogooders.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (20 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> So what was your point?
> You said
> 
> To what were you referring when you said I don't have that right?
> ...



Add to that, those that are at severe risk or have a heightened fear of contracting the virus, can buy better respirators, that give them improved protection, for the occasions they wish to venture out.
Eventually there has to be a modicum of common sense applied, this can't go on for the rest of our lives.
Obviously, as has been shown overseas people who are fully vaccinated still get the virus.








						Aussie Olympic champ hospitalised with COVID-19
					

Fully-vaccinated gold medallist's 'huge wake up call'




					wwos.nine.com.au
				












						3M Professional Painters Reusable Respirators With Cool Flow Valve
					

Find 3M Professional Painters Reusable Respirators With Cool Flow Valve at Bunnings. Visit your local store for the widest range of products.




					www.bunnings.com.au


----------



## wayneL (20 September 2021)

Belli said:


> Yep, absolutely.  Of course activities such as drinking, etc while having a level of risk are not transmissible to other people.  Unlike the virus.
> 
> So when out and about as you wish I am sure you will not cause another person to become infected.    You don't have that right.




1/ there are many activitiesthat both carry a level of risk for oneself but also for other people. Driving on the roads is one such example. Letting other people who maybe asthmatics, inhale cigarette smoke is another. And I'm sure there are others if I put my thinking cap on.

2/  I had a fair dinkum bout of influenza in 2017. I felt so rotten I was praying for someone to break in and shoot me in the back of the head.

So what gave that person the right to infect me? Why wasn't the world locked down back then? Why weren't we all forced to wear and non-biodegradable face nappy in any previous influenza pandemic? why weren't be forced to have a vaccine passport? Why won't our politicians invoking medical apartheid and treating unvaccinated people as second class citizens?

WHY NOW?


----------



## Belli (20 September 2021)

Yes, it is a pity we humans are very poor at assessing risks.  We're just not very good at it.


----------



## wayneL (20 September 2021)

Belli said:


> Yes, it is a pity we humans are very poor at assessing risks.  We're just not very good at it.



The riskiest think any of us can do is be born, it leads to certain death.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> 1/ there are many activitiesthat both carry a level of risk for oneself but also for other people. Driving on the roads is one such example. Letting other people who maybe asthmatics, inhale cigarette smoke is another. And I'm sure there are others if I put my thinking cap on.
> 
> 2/  I had a fair dinkum bout of influenza in 2017. I felt so rotten I was praying for someone to break in and shoot me in the back of the head.
> 
> ...












						COVID Far More Lethal Than Flu, Data Shows
					

The death rate among COVID-19 patients was 18.5%, while it was 5.3% for those with the flu. Those with COVID were nearly five times more likely to die than flu patients, according to the study published online Dec. 15 in the BMJ.




					www.webmd.com
				




"
_FRIDAY, Dec. 18, 2020 (HealthDay News) -- COVID-19 is far more harmful and deadly than the seasonal flu, new studies confirm.


Researchers analyzed U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs data on more than 3,600 patients hospitalized with COVID-19 between Feb. 1 and June 17 of this year, and more than 12,600 hospitalized with the flu between Jan. 1, 2017 and Dec. 31, 2019. The average age of patients in both groups was 69.


The death rate among COVID-19 patients was *18.5%, while it was 5.3% for those with the flu.* T*hose with COVID were nearly five times more likely to die than flu patients, according to the study published online Dec. 15 in the BMJ.*_





_COVID-19 patients with the highest risk of death included those aged 75 and older who also had chronic kidney disease or dementia, and Blacks who were obese, or who had diabetes or kidney disease.


*The study also found that COVID-19 patients were four times more likely to require breathing machines, nearly 2.5 times more likely to be admitted to intensive care, and stayed in the hospital an average of three days longer than flu patients."*_

More in the article.


----------



## wayneL (20 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Looks to me like Melbourne isn't the place to be right now, the natives appear to be getting restless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've been following this incident over the weekend and haven't really been able to verify who the woman was or what her injuries work.

Nevertheless, that was a pretty despicable act from Victorian Stasi.

Whoever she was she was presenting no threat to anyone and if the shove wasn't enough, spraying an injured person with capsicum spray when they're down and presenting no threat is both illegal and disgusting.

They also capsicum sprayed many members of the mainstream media, giving at least a few of them a wake up moment.

If anyone thinks any of  this is going to end well in any way,  they are dreaming.

We plebeians just need to decide who this is not going to end well for.


----------



## wayneL (20 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> COVID Far More Lethal Than Flu, Data Shows
> 
> 
> The death rate among COVID-19 patients was 18.5%, while it was 5.3% for those with the flu. Those with COVID were nearly five times more likely to die than flu patients, according to the study published online Dec. 15 in the BMJ.
> ...



Oh please.

That article is bulshit of the highest order, Horace.

There is an information war here and one must not be on the side of the Goebbel-esque.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Oh please.
> 
> That article is bulshit of the highest order, Horace.
> 
> There is an information war here and one must not be on the side of the Goebbel-esque.




If you want to argue the facts wayne, please do so.


----------



## wayneL (20 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If you want to argue the facts wayne, please do so.



It is saying Covid death rate is 18% +







SirRumpole said:


> If you want to argue the facts wayne, please do so.



Read it bro.

The article uses several statistical disingenuities.

Firstly the data was only from department of veterans affairs.

Secondly we know that COVID is very age-stratified. It is far more deadly for elderly people, but influenza is more deadly for younger people than covid.

Thirdly there are lots of things more deadly than COVID, cardiovascular disease and cancer just a couple of examples.

The article represents that the death rate of covid is 18.5% or there abouts. Hence putting out a narrative (again disingenuously) that covid in the general population is far more deadly than it actually is.

This is bollox

Thirdly, if we look at the overall death rate for 100000, for just about every country you want to mention, it has belly moved on a year to year basis even with the reported pandemic.

As it population, we are not dying off from COVID or for any other reason.

In fact even with the purported covid pandemic, the world population continues to increase..

This is simply not justifying the fear campaign it's probably get hit by the mainstream media and the likes of web.md.

Wanna p!ss your pants over something find something worthwhile like.... Umm, a really deadly virus, or perhaps even an imminent conflict in the South China sea.

Despite the propaganda of fear, countries like Sweden continue to live the way and will continue to do so for a long time in the future.

Yes covid is an unpleasant virus, nobody wants to get the damn thing, but I get more and more convinced that the government response, especially in Australia is about 100 times overblownand will result in much more deleterious consequences than the virus itself.


----------



## sptrawler (20 September 2021)

Things are getting even nastier in Victoria.
A chaotic brawl erupted on Monday after hundreds of people descended on union headquarters to protest mandatory vaccinations for construction workers.




__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				



From the article:
The angry workers yelled obscenities at union officials before wrestling, throwing projectiles and smashing the CFMEU’s front door.

Some workers screamed at Mr Sekta before he retreated inside.
“People are allowed to express their opinions and you’ve got to take it on the chin sometimes, people get emotional, I understand that,” Mr Setka said.

“But when you go out of your way to address people and they just talk over you, yelling and screaming and throw projectiles and injure people and smash property, it’s just absolutely unacceptable.

“It wasn’t our decision (to mandate vaccinations), we didn’t do it, we didn’t bring this pandemic in, all we’ve tried to do is keep everyone working.”


----------



## wayneL (20 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Things are getting even nastier in Victoria.
> A chaotic brawl erupted on Monday after hundreds of people descended on union headquarters to protest mandatory vaccinations for construction workers.
> 
> 
> ...



Just another example of the brass of the labor movement forsaking it's core constituency.

(And don't worry, the Illiberals are doing the same)


----------



## moXJO (20 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Things are getting even nastier in Victoria.
> A chaotic brawl erupted on Monday after hundreds of people descended on union headquarters to protest mandatory vaccinations for construction workers.
> 
> 
> ...



Funny as all hell that Setka said this, when he did the exact same thing to others in the past.

But I must admit that I never never thought I would see the day:




The narrative has been lost because too many elitist and media dismissed the concerns of people towards the vaccine.

There has also been a lot of disinformation being targeted at Muslim tradies. One of my mates ate the full package. It's also spreading amongst other ethnic groups.


----------



## sptrawler (20 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Funny as all hell that Setka said this, when he did the exact same thing to others in the past.
> 
> But I must admit that I never never thought I would see the day:
> 
> ...



That's what happens, when the workers know they've been sold out, I saw it quite a few times over my working career.
There was a motion carried at W.A's biggest power station, where two top union officials, weren't to be allowed on site again. 🤣  One became a Federal Minister, the other a City councillor.

Sounds like Daniel Andrews is going to teach the protestors a lesson and shut down Melbourne construction.
You really couldn't make this $hit up, what a comedy.








						Construction industry to be shut down for two weeks after clashes at CFMEU
					

The Andrews government will announce the closure of the building industry after a day of violent protests outside the Victorian headquarters of the CFMEU.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## wayneL (20 September 2021)

What the hell? First I'm cheering on Nicki Minaj, and now I'm cheering on CMFEU members...

The world Is upside down LMAO


----------



## wayneL (20 September 2021)

Happy now, brownshirts?





__





						US Republicans call for sanctions against Australia over police treatment of protesters
					





					www.rt.com


----------



## sptrawler (20 September 2021)

Well as I say, the truth has a way of coming out, it may be the ramblings of a loser, or it may be facts from a disenfranchised person who doesn't give a $hit because he has been trashed.
This only gets better, why would you watch reality t.v? 🤣
The media is going to so confused, which angle to take, follow Trumps line and they could replace a microphone with an M16, or go the China way of nothing to see here and end up swapping a microphone for job in a foot ware factory. 🤣
Jeez you have to love these times, I thought old age was going to boring, now I'm not sure.  




__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (21 September 2021)

Problem solved folks.
Now the narrative has changed from it being construction workers angry at haveing been sold out by union management seen to be too close to the Andrews government to the  whole thing being a rightwing extremeist set up.
From ABC news


> Victoria's construction industry is reeling after it was plunged into a two-week shutdown overnight following violent protests outside the CFMEU offices in Melbourne's CBD.
> 
> Key points:​
> CFMEU Victorian secretary John Setka said "professional protesters" were behind Monday's violent demonstration
> ...



Professional protesters? So who is paying them??
Mick


----------



## basilio (21 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Problem solved folks.
> Now the narrative has changed from it being construction workers angry at haveing been sold out by union management seen to be too close to the Andrews government to the  whole thing being a rightwing extremeist set up.
> From ABC news
> *
> ...



Nah. The extremists in the anti vaxxer/COVID is a hoax/ QAnon is alive movements  just enjoy the punch ups.  And they certainly wouldn't miss an opportunity to have another fight outside the CFMEU.


----------



## basilio (21 September 2021)




----------



## mullokintyre (21 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Nah. The extremists in the anti vaxxer/COVID is a hoax/ QAnon is alive movements  just enjoy the punch ups.  And they certainly wouldn't miss an opportunity to have another fight outside the CFMEU.



I think the CFMEU have enough of their own who enjoy a good punch up without importing  others,
Have a look at the bevy of large  menacing looking body guards that usually walk around with John Setka.
Setka said this morning that those members from the CFMEU involved in protesting will not have a job in construction and can go pick fruit.
Setka himself has been charged once for domestic violence, and is under investigation for another round of  domestic violence in  January this year.
Mick


----------



## basilio (21 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> think the CFMEU have enough of their own who enjoy a good punch up without importing others,




They didn't invite the nutters.  They just barged in.


----------



## basilio (21 September 2021)

COVID has killed about as many Americans as the 1918-19 flu​By CARLA K. JOHNSONyesterday






https://apnews.com/article/science-...9fbb/gallery/9e30c7fdffe34b8abf14b6e69a4a7b6c
1 of 10
FILE - This photo made available by the Library of Congress shows a demonstration at the Red Cross Emergency Ambulance Station in Washington during the influenza pandemic of 1918. Historians think the pandemic started in Kansas in early 1918, and by winter 1919 the virus had infected a third of the global population and killed at least 50 million people, including 675,000 Americans. Some estimates put the toll as high as 100 million. (Library of Congress via AP, File)

COVID-19 has now killed about as many Americans as the 1918-19 Spanish flu pandemic did — approximately 675,000.

The U.S. population a century ago was just one-third of what it is today, meaning the flu cut a much bigger, more lethal swath through the country. But the COVID-19 crisis is by any measure a colossal tragedy in its own right, especially given the incredible advances in scientific knowledge since then and the failure to take maximum advantage of the vaccines available this time.

“*Big pockets of American society — and, worse, their leaders — have thrown this away,” medical historian Dr. Howard Markel of the University of Michigan said of the opportunity to vaccinate everyone eligible by now.*

Like the Spanish flu, the coronavirus may never entirely disappear from our midst. Instead, scientists hope it becomes a mild seasonal bug as human immunity strengthens through vaccination and repeated infection. That could take time.

“We hope it will be like getting a cold, but there’s no guarantee,” said Emory University biologist Rustom Antia, who suggests an optimistic scenario in which this could happen over a few years.
For now, the pandemic still has the United States and other parts of the world firmly in its jaws.

While the delta-fueled surge in infections may have peaked*, U.S. deaths are running at over 1,900 a day on average,* the highest level since early March, and the country’s overall toll topped 675,000 Monday, *according to the count kept by Johns Hopkins University, though the real number is believed to be higher.*









						COVID has killed about as many Americans as the 1918-19 flu
					

COVID-19 has now killed about as many Americans as the 1918-19 Spanish flu pandemic did — approximately 675,000.  The U.S. population a century ago was just one-third of what it is today, meaning the flu cut a much bigger, more lethal swath through the country.




					apnews.com


----------



## sptrawler (21 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Problem solved folks.
> Now the narrative has changed from it being construction workers angry at haveing been sold out by union management seen to be too close to the Andrews government to the  whole thing being a rightwing extremeist set up.
> From ABC news
> 
> ...



The really funny part is the muppets will believe it.
They were no walk up rent a crowd mob, that was a group of disenfranchised workers, blind Freddy can see that. 🤣
Also if they were right wing nut jobs, Andrews wouldn't punish the construction workers, that is asking for trouble.
They union helped their mates in Government, without running it past the blokes first, because they new the blokes would have voted it down.
So now the legal representation and voice of the construction workers, has made it mandatory that workers be vaccinated, or can be stood down.
Why wouldn't the blokes be pizzed. If it was a State Liberal government in office, the union would have taken a vote and told the Government to sod off.


----------



## IFocus (21 September 2021)

Paul Sakkal from the Age has been covering noting extreme right  getting involved



			https://twitter.com/paulsakkal


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2021)

Fake news. ^^


----------



## Joules MM1 (21 September 2021)

very very very important message from a (?) tradie


here's his brother


----------



## sptrawler (21 September 2021)

NSW still powering ahead with vaccinations.


----------



## sptrawler (21 September 2021)

Getting out of control in Melbourne.


----------



## wayneL (21 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Getting out of control in Melbourne.




Possibly a watershed moment, today.


----------



## sptrawler (21 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Possibly a watershed moment, today.



Well I don't think the workers are very happy, the footage of them outside the CFMEU office, didn't show people shouting anti vax slogans and shouting down lockdowns.
They were screaming abuse at their union officials and calling them names, which would indicate it was them they were angry with, not the vaccine per se.
As for the Premier punishing the whole construction industry, well that is pretty totalitarian and a lot of muscle flexing, that isn't usually applied in Australia.
The mob today looked pretty angry, which when you consider they are probably not going to get Government financial support as the shutdown is only two weeks, could end up being a very hostile two weeks.
Add to that, now the loonies have been blamed, they will see no reason not to join in, which will indeed cloud things and the situation could quite easily escalate.
My guess is Andrews will either back down, or beef up the police response, I don't think it will be allowed to meander along.


----------



## IFocus (21 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well I don't think the workers are very happy, the footage of them outside the CFMEU office, didn't show people shouting anti vax slogans and shouting down lockdowns.
> They were screaming abuse at their union officials and calling them names, which would indicate it was them they were angry with, not the vaccine per se.
> As for the Premier punishing the whole construction industry, well that is pretty totalitarian and a lot of muscle flexing, that isn't usually applied in Australia.
> The mob today looked pretty angry, which when you consider they are probably not going to get Government financial support as the shutdown is only two weeks, could end up being a very hostile two weeks.
> Add to that, now the loonies have been blamed, they will see no reason not to join in, which will indeed cloud things and the situation could quite easily escalate.





Apparently the construction industry (not housing) have been leaking COVID cases and have been warned (then dummy spit over lunch rooms), 

Cannot see much sympathy going their way after nurses have been in the trench's for 18 months. 

Note unions have been trying to keep things going while maintaining safe working conditions then these guys just trash it.


----------



## sptrawler (21 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> Apparently the construction industry (not housing) have been leaking COVID cases and have been warned (then dummy spit over lunch rooms),
> 
> Cannot see much sympathy going their way after nurses have been in the trench's for 18 months.
> 
> Note unions have been trying to keep things going while maintaining safe working conditions then these guys just trash it.



Agree, but like I said earlier, the first incident at the CFMEU office certainly sounded as though the vaccine mandate hadn't been put to the rank and file.
That crowd wasn't going bananas about the vaccine, or the lockdowns, they were going bananas at the officials.
The officials probably made a call, that they though wouldn't cause a huge fuss, one of those "seemed like a good idea at the time" things?
Andrews may well have given the officials an ultimatum, who knows, but it certainly has turned to $hit and needs to be nipped in the bud before it gets out of control.
The only thing now, is to see who blinks first, the establishment has given the CFMEU workers an out by blaming the loonies, hopefully the guys take it.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## moXJO (22 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> Paul Sakkal from the Age has been covering noting extreme right  getting involved
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/paulsakkal




Media and unions in full bullshite mode. Plenty of workers there.

The union reps ended up running out with weapons at the end.



One way of dealing with out of line members.


----------



## basilio (22 September 2021)

The Anti Vaxxers are well and truly taking over this fight. 
Melinda Richards 🇦🇺🇺🇸 (@goodfoodgal) · Twitter​https://twitter.com/goodfoodgal?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author


----------



## mullokintyre (22 September 2021)

not sure if we anymore proof about the lies that come out of Politicians mouth.
Here is Daniel Andrews denying that the health minister said an extra 4,000 beds would be made available.
It is immediately followed by the video of the (former) health minister saying exactly that along with a copy of the press release that announced exactly that.

The government and MSM media wonder why there are so many protesters.
More and more victorians are saying to the elites, we have had enough.
The genie is now out of the bottle, and it will not be put back in.
In some ways, i am fearful of where this will end.
But one thing is sure, things will not be the same again.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (22 September 2021)

basilio said:


> The Anti Vaxxers are well and truly taking over this fight.
> Melinda Richards 🇦🇺🇺🇸 (@goodfoodgal) · Twitter​https://twitter.com/goodfoodgal?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author



I mentioned before that mates in nsw were dead against the vaccine that were of certain backgrounds. I've had countless others call me for advice on vaccination. I've always given the good and the bad with the vaccine. Told them to also get a check up and to also ask their doctor. When presented with information sources they trust, they tend to get vaxxed.

 It seems to be Facebook and social driving it though. Celebrities and media lying has basically stuffed it worse. Note to media personalities: the only ones that give a fcuk are those that already agree with you. You helped stigmatise a whole bunch of people into a very large angry threat. This has been a two pronged threat. One from disinformation and the other from elite wankery.

NSW government has its finger on the pulse. Bjiggles has read it well so far. Unvaccinated are allowed back on worksites as it may blow up into riots. I don't think the Melbourne protests are liberal led. It seems to be a clear divide similar to the US. I'm thinking it's helped along by a  propaganda drive from foreign actors. If anything people hate lib Feds.

Construction restrictions to lift in NSW, unvaccinated workers permitted to return to work​https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100480052?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## mullokintyre (22 September 2021)

The Victorian Charter of Rights was given much fanfare when the labour Government bought in the legislation.
heres on of the provisions in that Charter. (see full charter Here .


> _This Charter binds the Crown in right of Victoria and, so far as the legislative power of the Parliament permits, the Crown in all its other capacities._





> _A person must not be subjected to medical or scientific experimentation or treatment without his or her full, free and informed consent._



Whether you think vaccinations should be mandatory or not, you cannot argue that mandatory vaccination  provisions go against this charter.
We have a highly paid human rights commissioner in Victoria. 
Have not heard a peep out of that person.
The Liberty Victoria has come out and said that although many of the provisions of the charter habe indeed been "suspended", 


> It is Liberty Victoria’s view that incentives for vaccination — such as vaccine passports — are a reasonable, necessary and proportionate measure in light of the very significant risk to public health caused by COVID‑19 in unvaccinated populations.
> 
> It is also our view that vaccine incentives are preferable to the widespread use of vaccine mandates from a human rights perspective. This is because it is a less restrictive method of promoting public health, because it gives people a degree of choice.



I guess it could be argued that giving the people freedom to not be vaccinated as long as you are prepared to be excluded does indeed give people a degree of choice. Hobsons choice perhaps.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (22 September 2021)

As a committed libertarian, I am stunned that Victorians have allowed themselves to have so many freedoms hacked away.
The latest Police State demand was forCivil Aviation Authority to ban all choppers except Police choppers from the CBD, so as to not allow them to film the protests/riots.
from  todays OZ


> Victoria Police put an immediate stop to media organisations filming and broadcasting live aerial footage from the Melbourne protests, but within hours of the shock request being approved they wound back the unprecedented restraint on TV networks.
> 
> The Civil Aviation Safety Authority on Wednesday confirmed a Victoria Police request to stop all aircraft – except police helicopters – flying over Melbourne’s CBD on the third day of the protests.
> 
> But within about four hours of the request by Victoria Police being approved, the unprecedented restrictions were wound back, instead allowing media to fly over the CBD with police approval first.,



CASA, being a unaccountable  entity in its own right, would see absolutely no problem in making sure that the rest of the world do not see things the authorities don't want them to see.
But of course it also prevented any other non MSM media  pilots from flying over the CBD and taking footage.
If people do not stand up for liberty, they cannot complain when its taken away.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (22 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> not sure if we anymore proof about the lies that come out of Politicians mouth.
> Here is Daniel Andrews denying that the health minister said an extra 4,000 beds would be made available.
> It is immediately followed by the video of the (former) health minister saying exactly that along with a copy of the press release that announced exactly that.
> 
> ...




We







mullokintyre said:


> As a committed libertarian, I am stunned that Victorians have allowed themselves to have so many freedoms hacked away.
> The latest Police State demand was forCivil Aviation Authority to ban all choppers except Police choppers from the CBD, so as to not allow them to film the protests/riots.
> from  todays OZ
> 
> ...



Spot on.

The thing is, we've been silent when draconian legislation is pushed through, and it's been happening for decades.

The "she'll be right" attitude has caught up with us in a big way. The closet totalitarians have caught us on the hop and now they've jumped out of the closet, were all like, WTF just happened.

But it's been going on for 20 years (a lot longer actually) from both major parties.


----------



## sptrawler (22 September 2021)

Well the repercussions have started, for those who dared voice their discontent, just shows the Liberal Party isn't the only ones workers have to worry about IMO. 
Can't wait to see how 'Fair Work", deals with the unions, causing unfair dismissal. 🤣
Imagine if Scomo rang up a business and said I want those people sacked, for being in that demonstration. There would be an uproar, how the world has changed.








						Building worker sacked, allegedly under union pressure, for attending protest
					

A building worker has said the construction union pressured his employer to sack him after he attended Monday’s violent protest at the union’s office.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
At least one building worker has already been sacked after attending Monday’s violent protest outside the CFMEU headquarters in Melbourne, and he has accused the construction union of pressuring his employers to lay him off.

A worker from a CBD construction site who attended Monday’s protests told _The Age_ on condition of anonymity that he was sacked on Tuesday morning. He said he was not opposed to vaccination and had not been violent at the protest.
He said his employer had called him and told him he had no choice but to remove him from the job as the Construction, Forestry, Maritime, Mining and Energy Union had threatened the business with loss of trade if he did not comply. Several other workers had also been laid off for attending, the worker said, which has been confirmed by _The Age _with third-party sources also speaking on condition of anonymity because they feared for their futures in the industry.

The worker, who is a CFMEU member with 25 years’ experience, said he had left-wing views and had received two COVID-19 vaccinations.
The worker said he and his colleagues had become angry on Monday morning after being presented with a proposal to work six hours without break but to be paid for eight. “People have had a gutful,” he said. “We said f--- this, we are going to march and get some answers.”
The worker who was sacked said he feared he would be driven out of the industry and unable to support his family. He estimated well over 90 per cent of the crowd when he was there on Monday were building workers. “It was genuine angry workers.”
While the far right and those opposed to vaccinations were active, senior union figures estimated about 80 to 90 per cent of the protesters on Monday were construction workers. That proportion was estimated to have dropped considerably over the following days.

Some of Monday’s protesters were drawn from Mr Setka’s powerbase in the Croatian community and rely on him for work as part of patronage networks. Many are right-wing and have anti-vaccination views and have now turned on the union leader. There were further signs of the fracturing of this powerbase with the presence at the rallies on Monday and Wednesday of Anton Sucic, one of Mr Setka’s closest long-term friends.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 September 2021)

Well, now we see who really stands up for the workers.
Where is sally McManus?
Where are the big end of town boys from the Construction Industry?
Where is the building watchdog?
Deathly silent the lot of them.
Now all we need is for som carpet bagger from the LNP to take up his cause and really screw things up.
The elites just roll on.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (22 September 2021)

Meanwhile the NSW vaccine rollout continues, we aren't into Oct yet, so as long as people have the second dose 80% is well in reach.


----------



## sptrawler (23 September 2021)

Same paper two different takes on today's proceedings, just shows how things are presented makes a huge difference. 
One infers that the protesters went to the shrine as an act of disrespect, the other infers they were herded there by the police, go figure.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-and-hail-of-bean-rounds-20210922-p58tr6.html
From the article:
Melbourne endured a third day of anti-vaccine anarchy on Wednesday as protesters chanted “freedom” on the steps of one of the city’s most sacred landmarks, the Shrine of Remembrance, only to be blasted off late in the afternoon by police firing non-lethal rounds.

The Shrine, which was built in 1934 and commemorates those who served and died in Australia’s wars, was left with its lawns littered with rubbish, including a full can of chickpeas, tear gas canisters and leftover “bean” rounds. One decorated veteran stood by with his head in his hands.
The hours-long stand-off between police and several hundred protesters came at the end of another meandering march through the city. Once the demonstrators had occupied the steps of the Shrine and were sitting around the eternal flame, they chanted a mix of anti-vaccine slogans and invective at Premier Daniel Andrews, as well as singing the national anthem and holding a minute’s silence for people who had died by suicide during the pandemic. At one stage they took a knee in front of police officers.

Shrine chairman Captain Stephen Bowater decried the protest as “disgraceful and disrespectful”. “The Shrine of Remembrance is sacred. It is not a place of protest,” he said. RSL Victoria said the protesters were “completely disrespecting the sanctity” of the site.









						How police tactics have changed (and changed again) in dealing with protests
					

The demonstrators were the static line with their backs to a building while police were the mobile force leaving the demonstrators an exit route. They deliberately left the lid off the toothpaste and then began to squeeze.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
Monday’s brawls outside the CFMEU headquarters was not a planned event, and it took police some time to use PORT.

On Tuesday police chose to protect key buildings, including Parliament House, not wanting a Washington-type January attack when Trump supporters stormed Capitol Hill. PORT took the front line with a row of horses behind supported by uniform police.
As thousands of building workers, anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists and others with unknown agendas walked around the city, police moved to different positions to protect key spots without attempting to disperse the crowd.
At the end of Tuesday Chief Commissioner Shane Patton warned returning protestersthey would face a stronger police approach. While not returning to the Plattfuss line of bringing out the batons, he made it clear you shouldn’t weep crocodile tears if you happened to get tear-gassed.

PORT and the Critical Incident Response Team would take the lead. Heavily armoured vehicles usually dispatched for terrorism incidents were plainly in sight.
Wednesday’s hardcore crowd appeared to have no plan. They wandered around enabling police to employ sheepdog tactics, herding them in one direction.
In a spectacularly stupid move the demonstrators congregated at the Shrine of Remembrance – an act certain to strip any shred of public sympathy.
One side was equipped with shields, horses, capsicum spray, tear-gas and rubber bullets. The other with slogans. The demonstrators were the static line with their backs to a building while police were the mobile force leaving the demonstrators an exit route.
They deliberately left the lid off the toothpaste and then began to squeeze.


----------



## wayneL (23 September 2021)

I have no objection to police controlling violence and/or protecting buildings from damage etc. But clearly it is the police inciting the violence in, not all, but many cases where people protesting peacefully.

Gents, this is all going in a very dangerous direction IMO.


----------



## wayneL (23 September 2021)

A view from our indigenous folk.


----------



## sptrawler (23 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> I have no objection to police controlling violence and/or protecting buildings from damage etc. But clearly it is the police inciting the violence in, not all, but many cases where people protesting peacefully.
> 
> Gents, this is all going in a very dangerous direction IMO.



It just shows, it doesn't matter which country you are from or what style of Government it has, when push comes to shove there isn't a lot between them.


----------



## basilio (23 September 2021)

In all this story one issue seems to be  ignored.

Victoria is under lockdown to stop the spread of  the currently highly infectious Delta COVID.  Mass gatherings are illegal to protect public health. Thousands of people massing together without mostly without masks  are spreading the disease with a vengence. 

How are the rest of the community supposed to feel about thousands of people wilfully spreading a disease that will undermine their jobs, their health and their families ? And what we would think of a government that didn't take appropriate steps to  stop this behaviour.


----------



## mullokintyre (23 September 2021)

basilio said:


> In all this story one issue seems to be  ignored.
> 
> Victoria is under lockdown to stop the spread of  the currently highly infectious Delta COVID.  Mass gatherings are illegal to protect public health. Thousands of people massing together without mostly without masks  are spreading the disease with a vengence.
> 
> How are the rest of the community supposed to feel about thousands of people wilfully spreading a disease that will undermine their jobs, their health and their families ? And what we would think of a government that didn't take appropriate steps to  stop this behaviour.



So how do you equate the protest with "wilfully spreading the disease".
The protests are outdoors.  
Do a little bit of research and you will find that there have been very little  transmission outdoors (the CDC according to This puts it about 1% of Covid cases).
Part of the easing of restrictions has been the allowance of outdoor picnics etc. 
You don't know the protesters vax state, you don't know their current covid  disease situation, in fact you nothing other than  what the MSM have branded them. 
Whatever their rationale for protesting, you have no basis for accusing them of wilfully spreading the disease.
Hyperbole, nothing more.
Mick


----------



## basilio (23 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> So how do you equate the protest with "wilfully spreading the disease".
> The protests are outdoors.
> Do a little bit of research and you will find that there have been very little  transmission outdoors (the CDC according to This puts it about 1% of Covid cases).
> Part of the easing of restrictions has been the allowance of outdoor picnics etc.
> ...




Ok I'll take out the word wilfully.  I'll accept the premise that there was no person in the crowd who deliberately intended to spread COVID. Recklessly, thoughtlessly ? With absolutely no care ? Are these more accurate descriptions?

However.. Do you remember the spreading of COVID at the MCG in July ? This was one of the key factors in spreading that particular wave of the disease. In fact this event coupled with the  massive spread of Delta Covid in India through mass outdoor religious festivals highlighted just how infectious the new strain had become.

There is also a HUGE quantitative difference between smalls groups of people in outside picnics and a massed crowd of people moving together for hours and screaming their hearts out. The earliest  examinations of COVID spread noted just how quickly the virus spread in choirs because of the raised and projected voices.

As to the COVID state of the protesters. I think they made it very clear they didn't give a damn about isolation and attempting to quarantine themself. Many were from  building sites which have already  shown 300 plus infections. So there is a higher than normal probability that some of these people were infected.

We know from experience in Melbourne that a single person at an event can infect scores of people over a few hours. The engagement party in Caufield  situation ?









						'It's worrying': Australia used as COVID-19 'test case' as global experts study Delta's movement
					

Australia is being used as a "test case" by researchers across the world watching the spread of the COVID-19 Delta variant, with the country's low vaccination rates and comparatively low case numbers allowing "clean data" for analysis.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						Health authorities grow concerned over mystery St Kilda Covid cluster
					

Victoria has recorded 24 new locally-acquired cases of coronavirus as health authorities grow increasingly concerned over a cluster of mystery cases in Melbourne's inner south-east.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## basilio (23 September 2021)

So today the fight to overthrow the Victorian lockdowns and undermine the  vaccination machine has slowed down.  92 arrests of the early birds. The remainder have made a tactical withdrawal.

Major highlights today and recently

The protesters targeted vaccination centres and their staff. Staff were spat on.  Two centres are now closed until staff are tested to see if they have been infected
One of the people arrested at the Shrine action is now in hospital with COVID. * I wonder how many of his fellow protesters and the police are  now infected ?*=









						Victoria Police arrest 92 protesters, as crowds fail to show for fourth day of rallies
					

Protesters have been condemned for spitting on and abusing health workers in Melbourne, but large-scale rallies planned for Thursday did not eventuate as police took control of the streets.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (23 September 2021)

The engagement party was inside.
The MCG infections came from people frequenting  inside bars within the arena.
We are still waiting for the massive increase in cases from the BLM protests, large groups of people together, but outdoors.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (24 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Ok I'll take out the word wilfully.  I'll accept the premise that there was no person in the crowd who deliberately intended to spread COVID. Recklessly, thoughtlessly ? With absolutely no care ? Are these more accurate descriptions?
> 
> However.. Do you remember the spreading of COVID at the MCG in July ? This was one of the key factors in spreading that particular wave of the disease. In fact this event coupled with the  massive spread of Delta Covid in India through mass outdoor religious festivals highlighted just how infectious the new strain had become.
> 
> ...



Hasn't the Melbourne lockdowns already failed?


----------



## mullokintyre (24 September 2021)

Wjhen you compare the  trajectory of NSW and Victoria, there is some contrast.
Over the past week, the number of active cases in Victoria has increased by 2500 (source Vic Covid ).
The daily case numbers has a distinctly increasing trend.
NSW over the past week has had a decrease of 1800 active cases, even without yesterdays figures added in.
NSW daily case numbers are still higher than Victoria's, but it seems to have peaked, and down from the highs of last week. 
So one might well argue that the lockdown in Victoria has failed, despite what some might say about modelling showing it could have been so much worse.
Mick


----------



## basilio (24 September 2021)

moXJO said:


> Hasn't the Melbourne lockdowns already failed?




Has it ?  Well then we  should congratulate the anti vaxxers,  COVID deniers, and other free spirits who have relentlessly and successfully managed to overpower the State Governments lockdown rules.

Clearly their message is getting through to enough people to ensure  a steady virus leakage through the community.  Of course if they all manage to get together and help spread COVID properly through their groups,  AKA the last 4 days,  then their success will complete.


----------



## basilio (24 September 2021)

*Update on the Freedom Fighters.  *

Caitlin Cassidy

Protestors have released four locations to “penetrate” today across Melbourne’s CBD.

*They are advising demonstrators to mark their trek to the locations as “civilians, armed with an excuse”.*

The riot squad and a number of plainclothes officers are back in the city gearing up for day five of the protests and are checking a number of IDs, 9News is reporting.

Large crowds are yet to have gathered.









						Australia Covid live news update: NSW confirms 11 deaths, 1,043 cases; Victoria records one death, 733 cases; police await fifth day of Melbourne protests
					

Follow all today’s news




					www.theguardian.com
				












						More than 200 arrests made across Melbourne as police disperse anti-lockdown protesters
					

Police have confirmed 215 people will be issued with penalty notices for breaching the CHO directions, as authorities crack down on protesters across Melbourne's inner suburbs.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (24 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Has it ?  Well then we  should congratulate the anti vaxxers,  COVID deniers, and other free spirits who have relentlessly and successfully managed to overpower the State Governments lockdown rules.
> 
> Clearly their message is getting through to enough people to ensure  a steady virus leakage through the community.  Of course if they all manage to get together and help spread COVID properly through their groups,  AKA the last 4 days,  then their success will complete.



Bas, you consistently use hyperbole to make your point.
There are most certainly anti vaxxers, COVID deniers, free spirits etc in the group of protesters. 
There are also anarchists, right wing trouble makers.
And there way mell be pro vaxxers, and people who have been vaccinated, once, maybe some twice.
What is common is the angst against  the lockdowns and other restrictions that have been imposed.
Once the state denies people an ability to protest, there will be trouble.
The lockdowns have failed for two reasons.
1. The spread of the virus has not been prevented. The increases in virus numbers started before the protests began.
2. The numerous videos of state sponsored Police brutality has served to feed the angst of the lunatic fringe of the protests, as well as cause increasingly large numbers of Victorians to view  Vicpol  with a sense of alarm.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (24 September 2021)

And then you get this... where will it end

Exhausted ICU Nurse Immediately Joins The CFMEU After Seeing Them Punch On With Anti-Vaxxers​















						Exhausted ICU Nurse Immediately Joins The CFMEU After Seeing Them Punch On With Anti-Vaxxers — The Betoota Advocate
					

CLANCY OVERELL | Editor | CONTACT LIFELONG LOYALTY: Victoria has today recorded another 567 new community cases in greater Melbourne, bumping the number of active cases in the state to 5,675. There are 209 Victorians in hospital, 59 of those are in intensive care and 40 are on a ventilator. Of...




					www.betootaadvocate.com


----------



## mullokintyre (24 September 2021)

There are a number of legal challenges that will need to be resolved around some of the responses to  COVID.
The first thing to establish, is that in all cases, wherever there is conflict, a Federal Law will  overide a state or territory law. 
One of them is the  Commonwealth  Disability Discriimination Act  of 1992.




> _The Commonwealth Disability Discrimination Act makes it illegal to discriminate against a person in employment because of:
> 
> the presence in the body of organisms capable of causing disease or illness;
> 
> ...



This act was brought about because of the treatment of a young girl with AIDS, who was effectively hounded out of Australia because she was one of first children to contract aids.
It was not her fault, she didn't inject things into her arm, or have unprotected sex with someone who had AIDS.
She was unlucky enough to contract the AIDS virus through a blood transfusion in a time before there were screening procedures to check the blood samples for various unpleasant things.
A  liberal reading of this Act might well have found vast numbers of people would be found to have run foul of the Act by making pronouncements about those vaxed, partially vaxed or unvaxed.
Do not be surprised if someone instigates legal proceedings against someone else, particularly where there is media reporting of potential  adverse statements.
Mick


----------



## rederob (24 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> There are a number of legal challenges that will need to be resolved around some of the responses to  COVID.
> The first thing to establish, is that in all cases, wherever there is conflict, a Federal Law will  overide a state or territory law.
> One of them is the  Commonwealth  Disability Discriimination Act  of 1992.
> 
> ...



Please cite these legal challenges.


----------



## basilio (24 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Bas, you consistently use hyperbole to make your point.
> There are most certainly anti vaxxers, COVID deniers, free spirits etc in the group of protesters.
> There are also anarchists, right wing trouble makers.
> And there way mell be pro vaxxers, and people who have been vaccinated, once, maybe some twice.
> ...




Nothing about COVID has been easy. From the very beginning in January 2020 to now it has been a xxxxxx nightmare in terms of illness, death, social, political and economic disruption.

*But it was not a surprise. *For years we have been warned about the risks, in fact practical certainty, of a major pandemic.  Bird Flu, SARS  have always been an the radar.

To that end there have been  medical processes  in place to deal with such an event.* Having said that it has always been  clear that without effective vaccination or treatment options the only way to stop the spread of such a disease is quarantine. *

From the very start of the pandemic the conversation was how hard could democratic governments impose  a quarantine on it's citizens. We watched while China pursued a ruthless approach in Wuhan and other cities.  Lot's of tutting about authoritarian dictatorship.

Then in March 2020 it became clear that COVID was exploding across Italy and then Europe and of course the US.  There was no stomach for the strict China type quarantines so the lockdowns were only as effective as the political will and public acceptance of COVID as a grave problem would allow.  And at this stage there was the China experience of thousands of deaths and multiple illnesses across the country.  And most people believe the Chinese severely  under reported the  deaths/illneses.

It was at this stage that new stories were unfolded. "It was just a flu"  "It's a fraud" 'We can't lock down it will destroy the economy"."We can cure it with  X, Y, Z"   So from the beginning  we wrestled with the US President, the Brazilian President and some European counties  undermining the public health approach to this problem and giving further credence to the the  "flu/fraud/" story.

So not surprisingly  efforts to stop the spread of COVID  through isolation always faced a challenge.

This year we finally found vaccines that could slow the spread of COVID and reduce the  severity of any infection. Not perfect but pretty good. Enter the anti-vaxxers and the multitude of conspiracies that propagated story after story after story. And all this happening with a communication system that enabled instantaneous and simultaneous  transmission  of ideas around the world.

*The new delta strain of COVID is far more infectious than last year.* That meant that we needed an even tighter lockdown and a lot more luck to stop it spreading once it got a hold in the community. It's fair to say that it is much like  the spread of a bushfire.  On a pleasant summers day with average moisture a fire can be spotted , attacked early and controlled.  But if the winds are up, the temperature is high then unless the fire is stopped immediately it goes totally out of control. This was why the notion of going early and going hard were adopted .

But it hasn't worked has it ? And again I have to  say that the actions of the anti vaxxers, the COVID deniers, the  "it's only a flu" champions have been instrumental in helping this happen.  Governments are imperfect.  People are imperfect.  There are always personal failures. But having a widespread core of people deliberately undermining  support  for necessary public health measures* and then creating their own superspreader events through massing in the streets . *I think it's sickening and heartbreaking.


----------



## basilio (24 September 2021)

Police officers confirmed as close contacts of COVID-19 positive protester​There are also fears of a super spreader event after a protester who attended Wednesday's rallies tested positive for COVID-19 and was admitted to hospital.

At Friday's COVID press conference, Health Minister Martin Foley said it was clear "protesting against COVID-19 does not work".

"Vaccinations work against COVID-19," he said.

*"To pretend that something doesn't exist, and then for that very thing to put you in hospital is a message loud and clear that protesting against COVID-19 is futile."*

He said the full picture of how much spread had resulted from the person's involvement in the protests may not be clear until next week or the week after.

Victoria Police confirmed in a statement that a small number of officers were identified as close contacts to the COVID-positive person who attended the protest on September 22.

The officers involved have been informed to get tested and isolate. A police spokesperson said they would not specify how many officers had been placed into quarantine, for operational reasons.

Protest 'doesn't make sense'​Melbourne's Lord Mayor Sally Capp labelled the behaviour of protesters as "disgraceful".

*"It is beyond disappointing and it is completely disgusting that rioters would target people who [are] frontline workers, health care workers and doing their best to help us get out of this situation we are in," she told ABC News Breakfast.

"It doesn't make sense. I call them rioters because there is really nothing about this that is a protest.

"There is no cause. It is all about self-interest. It is all about causing as much disruption and destruction as possible."*

Ms Capp said a vaccination hub set up at the Melbourne Town Hall was designed to cater to vulnerable people including those experiencing homelessness, linguistically diverse people and those without Medicare cards.

"It has been packed every day," she said.

She said the fact it had to close because of "disgraceful behaviour" was really disappointing and had "multiple ripple effects".

"We are hoping to be open again next week," Ms Capp said.

"The efforts, particularly for those who are the most vulnerable in our community, will continue to get them to other sites but what we can't continue is to have a very small minority of very aggressive rioters take over our city," she said.









						More than 200 arrests made across Melbourne as police disperse anti-lockdown protesters
					

Police have confirmed 215 people will be issued with penalty notices for breaching the CHO directions, as authorities crack down on protesters across Melbourne's inner suburbs.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (24 September 2021)

On a more note.  Three cheers for the kids..!!









						Melbourne teens unmask themselves as COVID website creators
					

Three teenagers reveal they're the creators behind a popular data collection website called CovidBase AU — much to the delight of their fans.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (24 September 2021)

> But having a widespread core of people deliberately undermining support for necessary public health measures* and then creating their own superspreader events through massing in the streets . *I think it's sickening and heartbreaking.



Perhaps, but why is it hat  these people seem concentrated in Melbourne?
There have been protests in Sydney and Brisbane, but nothing like in Melbourne.
There may be many reasons, but one might treasonably argue that there is a link between the  level of protest in Melbourne and the fact that lockdown no 6 has now given the city the embarrassing title of the city that has been in lockdown  the most number of days in the world. 
In its 235 day under lockdown (some with curfews), It has surpassed Buenos Aires. 
If Melbourne is allowed out of lockdown as planned on October 26 it will have been in lockdown for 270  odd days, almost 9 months.
And already there is talk that the date may be pushed back.
Mick


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## basilio (24 September 2021)

This story encapsulates almost all the issues around COVID, vaccination, ease of infection and consequences.  At least it has happy ending.









						Melbourne tradie who spent fortnight in ICU with COVID urges protesting construction workers to get vaccinated
					

After a horrific ordeal in hospital with COVID-19, construction worker Nathan Chellia rues not getting vaccinated and pleas with protesting tradies to learn from his mistakes.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (24 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Perhaps, but why is it hat  these people seem concentrated in Melbourne?
> There have been protests in Sydney and Brisbane, but nothing like in Melbourne.
> There may be many reasons, but one might treasonably argue that there is a link between the  level of protest in Melbourne and the fact that lockdown no 6 has now given the city the embarrassing title of the city that has been in lockdown  the most number of days in the world.
> In its 235 day under lockdown (some with curfews), It has surpassed Buenos Aires.
> ...




It has been xhit in Melbourne. Absolutely.  People are tired and fed up. We/They want this to be over so, so much.

The balance is just how many more sicknesses, deaths and pressures on our hospital system do we want ? We  want to believe that once 80%  plus of people are vaccinated we  can open up and control the illnesses. But we have to get there first. ASAP.

I feel really, really angry at a Federal government that  just didn't take this situation seriously enough to go full bore on vaccinations *while we didn't have any infections.  *Back earlier this year when we thought that the Delta variant would stay in Delta and somehow respect our borders  That was the time we needed to put our skates on. Unfortuantely now we just have to make the best of a difficult situation and cerainly not wilfully, deliberately, stupidly create more mayhem.


----------



## explod (24 September 2021)

Apologies if this has already been posted.  Be interested in other takes but looks bad to me:-





__





						CCP Whistleblower: China Deliberately Spread Covid In 2019 | ZeroHedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


----------



## mullokintyre (24 September 2021)

basilio said:


> I feel really, really angry at a Federal government that  just didn't take this situation seriously enough to go full bore on vaccinations *while we didn't have any infections.  *Back earlier this year when we thought that the Delta variant would stay in Delta and somehow respect our borders  That was the time we needed to put our skates on. Unfortuantely now we just have to make the best of a difficult situation and cerainly not wilfully, deliberately, stupidly create more mayhem.



Don't really understand why its all the fault of the feds.
In hindsight they might have ordered a different combination of Vaccines.
But ordering them and getting them are two different things.
Yes Scotty from marketing screwed up badly in thinking the State Premiers would all work together in a National Cabinet for the good of the country. Fat chance.
The feds should never have agreed to each state control their quarantine levels.
Yes the feds should have closed the national borders to anyone coming in from overseas much sooner, and then not allowed ANY exceptions..
And yet so much of what occurred was  out of  their control.
They didn't enforce the lockdowns.
They didn't send out riot squads.
They didn't arbitrarily close state borders but exempt celebs, politicians  and sports stars.
And most importantly, they did not cut their wages or the wages of the phalanx of state government employees who "worked from home".
And it does not explain why Victoria has had the lions share of problems.
And that really can only be sheeted home to the Victorian Government.
Mick


----------



## basilio (24 September 2021)

Diversionary Mick.

I'm not going to be simplistic.  Dealing with COVID was always going to be messy. Hindsight and second guessing is endemic in politics.  But the one issue I picked as critical in 2021 was the process of  getting Australia vaccinated as soon as possible.  Obtaining vaccinations in sufficient volume and organising processes  to ensure rapid vaccination was a Federal Government responsibility. ScoMo said this is our job.

He stuffed it up. If this had been done with any sort of reasonable swiftness and imagination by May-June this year we would have  80% plus vaccination and the problems of dealing with Delta Covid would have been signicant but nowhere near as challenging as they have proved since July-August.  

And just to be clear. *When rioters roam the streets  and behave the way they have you call out the riot squad*. And we don't "blame" the Government for protecting the rest of the community
_______________________________________________________

I think the example of Bhutan is an important one to recognise when considering what role a Government can play in protecting it's community.

Bhutan , a poor landlocked, largely rural country in the Himalayas.  Ruled by a King who is a doctor. Because of the countries determination to effectively tackled COVID they organised   85-90% vaccination across the country in the space of  under two weeks for the first jab and less than a week for the second one.  This was an exercise in leadership, organization, logistics and community participation that frankly shames the First World countries   that have not recognised the priority and then done something effective about it.









						How a tiny country used Buddhist astrology to vaccinate 93 per cent of its adults in 16 days
					

Bhutan has surged past Israel, the US and Bahrain to have the world's highest proportion of adults who have received one dose. But it wasn't just a lucky star that got them there.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						Bhutan vaccinates 90 percent of adults against COVID in a week
					

UNICEF hails mass drive as ‘arguably the fastest vaccination campaign to be executed during a pandemic’.




					www.aljazeera.com


----------



## moXJO (24 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Has it ?  Well then we  should congratulate the anti vaxxers,  COVID deniers, and other free spirits who have relentlessly and successfully managed to overpower the State Governments lockdown rules.
> 
> Clearly their message is getting through to enough people to ensure  a steady virus leakage through the community.  Of course if they all manage to get together and help spread COVID properly through their groups,  AKA the last 4 days,  then their success will complete.



It was logistics that spread it around. Lockdowns failed hard. Remember everyone crowing about how great Dan was a few months back? Locking down fast and hard. And that how the lockdown would only be for a short time because of the ring of steel
Turns out it didn't matter.
Also turns out that Dan's an authoritarian dkhead. No one will want to visit Australia after the images coming out of there.


----------



## moXJO (24 September 2021)

The differences between cities and states is amusing.


----------



## moXJO (24 September 2021)

So I'm wondering if we get similar riots in nsw. Maybe a future 'flashpoint' in coming weeks.


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2021)

basilio said:


> I feel really, really angry at a Federal government that  just didn't take this situation seriously enough to go full bore on vaccinations *while we didn't have any infections.  *Back earlier this year when we thought that the Delta variant would stay in Delta and somehow respect our borders  That was the time we needed to put our skates on. Unfortuantely now we just have to make the best of a difficult situation and cerainly not wilfully, deliberately, stupidly create more mayhem.



Bas you always feel angry at the Liberal governments, no matter what the issue.
They have thrown away millions of AZ vaccines, due to the bad press, essential service people were given access to what limited pfizer vaccines were available, but they didn't even take them. It has only been since the federal Government has made it mandatory that aged care workers had to be vaccinated that they have come forward.
The biggest issue Australia has had is a reluctance to get vaccinated, as one would expect when we didn't actually have a serious outbreak.

Now we have had the outbreak of the Delta strain, the uptake of the vaccination has been nothing short of incredible, especially in NSW.
Maybe putting 'skates' on people would have helped but I doubt it, even now in W.A we are lagging behind the rest of the nation regarding vaccination rates, because we don't have a covid issue, if we did I'm sure our uptake would increase markedly also.
Making silly observations, just undermines the credibility of the debate.

W.A is also offering pfizer to those over 60, if they want it, the problem is most don't want anything, so even if the Federal Government had obtained millions shots, now you would be blaming them for buying too many and having to give them away or dispose of them as they would have gone past their use by date.
The media and their salivating entourage of readers, are to blame for the hesitancy, it was pure luck we couldn't get vaccine that would have been wasted.
There is always cup half empty people. 
As for making the statement "I'm not going to be simplistic", I can't understand why you would say that, it is one of the things you excel at. 

If it was just a case of having enough vaccine, W.A would be up there with the other States, the issue was and still is most people would rather not have the $hit shoved in their arms, until it is absolutely necessary.

In the early days of the outbreak the urge to get the vaccine was low, as the numbers were low, then the media blew up the incidence of clots with AZ, which we produced here.
So hesitancy grew, yet the numbers of infections didn't so the urge to be vaccinated due to fear fell.
Now a year and a half on and people are sick of being stuck inside, the hesitancy is being overcome by a feeling of what the hell, we can't live like this forever.

You will always have the ranters and chanters, some rant and chant about everyone should just go and have it, on the other side you have the ranters and chanters that say the vaccine is poison and will kill you.
In the middle you have normal people, like the wife and I, who are just fed up and want to get on with what remainder of their lives they have. Second shot in five weeks time.

NSW vaccination status






W.A's vaccines status


----------



## rederob (25 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Bas you always feel angry at the Liberal governments, no matter what the issue.
> They have thrown away millions of AZ vaccines, due to the bad press, essential service people were given access to what limited pfizer vaccines were available, but they didn't even take them. It has only been since the federal Government has made it mandatory that aged care workers had to be vaccinated that they have come forward.
> The biggest issue Australia has had is a reluctance to get vaccinated, as one would expect when we didn't actually have a serious outbreak.
> 
> ...



Vaccine purchase and distribution is controlled federally and, to date, only 40% of all vaccinations have been the responsibility of State/Territory administrations.
Health experts and State Premiers have been critical of the federal maladministration of our vaccine program since inception and there are dozens of media articles - like this one - detailing these failures.
NSW led the charge to get more State control of the rollout and this in part has helped it's better than average vaccine rate, as well as the "secret deal" that recently saw hundreds of extra GP clinics in NSW receive Pfizer via federal distribution arrangements.
A revamping of Operation Covid Shield in August proposed improved distribution, eg:

"Pilot programs for drive-thru clinics are set to be rolled out in September and would operate from October at scale in most jurisdictions".
Does anyone know of any pilot program drive-through  vaccination hubs that Covid Shield is implementing?  What about industry involvement (a la Bunnings hubs) involvement?  So far it looks like another failure to launch.  In the meantime ...
In Craton's Private Members' thread I outlined what Queensland's government is now doing via mass vaccination centres, which is an excellent model and will continue until targets are reached.
In NSW local shires are getting into the hang of mass vaccinations, with Narrabri a recent example. 

While vaccination hesitancy is a thing, the reality is that surveys suggest it has been significantly less than the number of people that want to get vaccinated and have not had the opportunity.  The States, and Shires like Narrabri, are proving that accessibility to vaccinations is an important driver of take up.  It is also universally the case that as covid vaccination rates increase, hesitancy decreases.

There is no doubt that AZ got a bad rap early on and this affected take up.  However, the feds could have engaged more GP clinics and also involved pharmacies to make *accessibility *the key to increasing vaccination rates, and it did *not*.  As competent as LT Gen Frewen is, he's not a health professional and has had difficulty in fully engaging the industry sectors which have been successfully rolling out millions of  vaccine shots year after year.   Coupled with a  PM who in over 18 months has shown little capacity to achieve consensus at National Cabinet meetings, we have a continuing politicisation of covid issues rather than a shared sense of responsibility in getting over the hump.


----------



## moXJO (25 September 2021)

Can get vaccinated in chemists in NSW. Walk in vaccination hubs. Plenty of astra. The finger can be pointed at the media for causing problems. They wanted to 'get' scomo. That then ruined any messaging. Imo astra was the safer bet.


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2021)

rederob said:


> While vaccination hesitancy is a thing, the reality is that surveys suggest it has been significantly less than the number of people that want to get vaccinated and have not had the opportunity.  The States, and Shires like Narrabri, are proving that accessibility to vaccinations is an important driver of take up.  It is also universally the case that as covid vaccination rates increase, hesitancy decreases.



Well said Rob and a balanced objective view.
The hesitancy is a huge problem still, especially in Aboriginal communities, I believe a load of vaccine was flown out to a community with staff and everyone had gone walkabout.
With the lack of supply especially pfizer, it makes sense to direct the majority of available vaccine to the areas of largest population density, where the greatest possibility of an outbreak will occur.
If limited supply was all directed to the regions, where there is no covid, then a major outbreak occurred in a major city there would be an outcry about that.
It must be difficult to source vaccine, when other countries were in much greater need of it, as their outbreak were running rampant, while our number of cases were minimal.
It is hard to justify that we are more deserving, they can only make the vaccine at a certain pace, to demand we get priority, when Countries like India probably needed all that was being produced at the time, really is a bit rich but does align with our entitled mentality. 
I just noticed in the SMH, the media has finally decided they had better mention hesitancy in an article, been a long time coming IMO.








						COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy plunges to record low, poll finds
					

The latest Resolve Political Monitor findings suggest Australia could achieve a 90 per cent vaccine target across the adult population.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:

Vaccine fears have plunged to a record low in a strong sign of support for the national plan to ease lockdowns, with only 9 per cent of Australians objecting to the jabs compared to 29 per cent in the early phase of the rollout.
The findings suggest the country could achieve a 90 per cent vaccine target across the adult population as the federal government promises more supplies of Pfizer and Moderna doses over the next three months.



Here is another article on efforts to overcome mass hesitancy in the indigenous population, I think i heard the other day only 20-30% of indigenous have come forward for the vaccine.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...ne-hesitancy-indigenous-communities/100451174
From the article:
Vaccine hesitancy isn't exclusive to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, but factors like traumatic historical events, barriers to access and supply, and misinformation, have turned a tool of protection into a tool of fear.

_*Warning: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander readers are advised that this article contains an image of people who have died.*_

"We had to do a lot of community sessions around trying to inform and educate that blood clots were like one in a million," she said.

"It doesn't matter what [vaccine] you bring in after that, the same thing happened … people were still hesitant."

In addition to this, Ms O'Donnell, who is also the chief executive officer of the Kimberly Aboriginal Medical Service in Broome, said there was a gap in the way information was being shared.

"A lot of people are saying they feel sorry for NSW, but [when] you say, 'Do you know there is over 800 of our mob sick with COVID?', they can't believe it," she said.

"The numbers don't get told at the press conference, so some people think it's only 'white people' with COVID."

Gaps in information have also allowed certain faith groups to target Aboriginal people, particularly in regional areas with low vaccination rates.

"If you home in on some communities, you'll find there's been no vaccination at all," Ms O'Donnell said.

"There's all these rumours around '666' and collecting or changing your DNA, so we're working hard to combat this."

"The good news is that Aboriginal people over 60 who are our highest risk group, 42 per cent are fully vaccinated and a further 10 per cent had their first. That's more than half of our older people already protected


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2021)

In W.A nurses are joining the anti vax protests, as the health care worker mandatory vaccination rue comes in on October the 1st.








						Perth protesters join national push against lockdowns, vaccine mandates
					

While Perth itself is not in lockdown and COVID-19 restrictions in WA are minimal, the crowd voiced support for other protests around the country on Saturday.




					www.watoday.com.au
				



From the article:

The most vitriol, however, was reserved for vaccine mandates.

Signs such as “Healthcare workers say NO” took aim at the WA government’s move to make COVID-19 vaccinations compulsory for all health staff – including food providers – by the end of the year.
When the policy was announced earlier this year, Australian Nursing Federation WA secretary Mark Olsen supported it, but predicted between seven and eight per cent of the nursing workforce would choose not to get the vaccine, putting more pressure on an already strained system.

Chief Health Officer Andy Robertson believed there was only about 1.5 per cent of the health workforce “philosophically opposed” to the vaccine.

Dr Robertson at the time predicted there would likely be a small impact to the system as workers left, but said a COVID-19 outbreak in hospitals would have a “far more crippling effect”.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2021)

How we kept our blot clotting death rate low.









						How Australia kept AstraZeneca-linked clot deaths so low
					

Australia's mortality rate from a rare blood-clotting disorder linked to the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine is nearly a fifth of what experts originally thought it could be. Here's why.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> How we kept our blot clotting death rate low.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet another example, of the benefit of not running ahead, like headless chooks.
Australia has done extremely well dealing with covid IMO, despite wailing to the contrary, as I've said before the handling of the virus will be better assessed with hindsight.
I initially was extremely reluctant to have the AZ, due to all the bad press it attracted and decided to wait for the Pfizer to be available to those over 60.
Eventually as more information became available and results were staring to be compiled on the effectiveness of both vaccines, I started to lean more toward the older style AZ vector vaccine, which I ended up taking.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yet another example, of the benefit of not running ahead, like headless chooks.
> Australia has done extremely well dealing with covid IMO, despite wailing to the contrary, as I've said before the handling of the virus will be better assessed with hindsight.
> I initially was extremely reluctant to have the AZ, due to all the bad press it attracted and decided to wait for the Pfizer to be available to those over 60.
> Eventually as more information became available and results were staring to be compiled on the effectiveness of both vaccines, I started to lean more toward the older style AZ vector vaccine, which I ended up taking.




I didn't have a choice really, it was AZ or nothing at the time.

I initially preferred Pfizer if I could get it because of the shorter waiting time between doses but they bought forward the second dose of AZ so now I've got both doses. 

No after effects yet, so I should be ok.

And I agree we have generally done well, despite some stuff ups along the way (and some stupid people not taking medical advice).


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> And I agree we have generally done well, despite some stuff ups along the way (and some stupid people not taking medical advice).



It certainly wasn't by good planning, or execution, it was more the fact that due to delays and lockdowns people have had more time to accept the reality.
Whereas if it had been forced along in the early period, the backlash would have been much bigger than what has happened, in reality the numbers of protestors are small considering it is a universal issue.
Like I said in hindsight they will say that we went extremely well, initially lockdowns were used to reduce numbers of infections, not a lot of vaccine was wasted and later as numbers of infections increased the vaccine roll out ramped up to match the demand.
Pure ar$e, but when history looks back, they miss a lot of the finer points of incompetence. 🤣


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Pure ar$e, but when history looks back, they miss a lot of the finer points of incompetence.




And we STILL have no action on dedicated quarantine centres or our own mrna manufacturing capability. Both Federal responsibilities , what's wrong with them ?


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> And we STILL have no action on dedicated quarantine centres or our own mrna manufacturing capability. Both Federal responsibilities , what's wrong with them ?



Too busy trying to backfill a hole they have dug for submarines. 🤣  🤣  🤣 

On the mRNA facility though apparently they are trying, but every other country is trying to get facilities built at their location as well.
This is quite a good article:








						Australia wants to make mRNA COVID vaccines onshore. Here's how long that could take
					

Pfizer has confirmed with ABC News that it has no immediate plans to manufacture its vaccine in Australia. This means manufacturing these sorts of vaccines anytime soon hinges on one global player.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Australia is one of many nations seeking to make the type of COVID-19 vaccine pioneered by Pfizer and Moderna during the pandemic – but can we make doses onshore anytime soon without help from big pharma?

ABC News has confirmed several players, including CSL, BioCina, Luina Bio and IDT, are proposing to set up large-scale local manufacturing of mRNA vaccines.

The Commonwealth is now assessing their bids and almost 10 others as part of a push to get these types of vaccines made here.

Experts say local manufacturing could ensure steady a supply of these sorts of vaccines, and help with developing booster shots for variants of COVID-19 that may become specific to our region.

But Pfizer has confirmed with ABC News that it has no immediate plans to manufacture its vaccine in Australia.
This means short-term manufacturing here hinges on Moderna.

"There's a lot of goodwill and international cooperation [currently] that people haven't seen before in the biotechnology and the biopharmaceutical sector," RNA expert Archa Fox, from the University of Western Australia (UWA), said.

"But at the end of the day, there is obviously also profit involved as well."
Messenger-RNA (mRNA) is literally a molecule.

Research into its use in vaccines and in other areas of biomedical research such as cancer had been going for years before the pandemic hit.

Yet it was the American multinational pharmaceutical company Pfizer, in partnership with German biotech company BioNTech, that got the first ever mRNA vaccine to market.

That was its COVID-19 jab and it was approved late last year, and only for emergency use.
While Pfizer grabs a lot of the headlines, it was actually BioNTech that developed the groundbreaking vaccine. Pfizer, one of the biggest pharmaceutical corporations in the world, carried out mass clinical trials and led global manufacturing.

RNA expert and Monash University professor Colin Pouton said there was currently no capacity to manufacture clinical-grade mRNA vaccines in Australia, although there were some facilities that could do parts of the process.

He said producing this sort of vaccine was a multi-step process that involved making DNA, then turning that into mRNA, and then putting that into lipid nanoparticles that essentially held the molecule.

"It's really because we don't have the facility to make a large enough batch under specific conditions that we can't do it here," he explained.

His research team is about to spend half a million dollars sending DNA to Belgium to have it processed for its mRNA COVID-19 vaccine research. It will get back just 2,000 vials.

"It's going to be quite a costly process," he said.

Compare that to the global machine making Pfizer on a mass scale.

The conglomerate has some manufacturing hubs in Australia, but none are set up to mRNA vaccines here.

Its COVID vaccine manufacturing involves the use of 280 materials from 86 suppliers in 19 countries. There are two supply lines – one each in the US and Europe – that exclusively manufacture the final product.

"This is to ensure quality, speed and scale," Pfizer told ABC News in a statement.

"Vaccine manufacturing is a biological production. It is extraordinarily complex under any circumstances, and even more so during a pandemic.



> "We now expect to manufacture approximately 3 billion doses by the end of 2021."



Australia has so far ordered 40 million doses of Pfizer. On the weekend, the government announced it has also ordered 85 million booster shots of Pfizer, which would start arriving next year.


Then there is Moderna's vaccine.

Moderna is comparable to BioNTech – it was mostly a biotechnology developer when the pandemic hit. It came up with its mRNA COVID-19 vaccine and then needed to figure out how to make it on a global scale.

"They're not like Pfizer, which has got a whole range of existing infrastructure across the world for doing commercial product manufacturing," UQ biotech and pharmaceutical expert Trent Munro said.

"Moderna has had to rely on partnerships with other companies, so-called contract manufacturing companies, to help boost their manufacturing capacity."
That is the sort of commercial arrangement that CSL already has with Oxford's AztraZenca to make 50 million doses of its COVID-19 vaccine here in Australia for us. It's a viral vector vaccine, which is made in a different way to mRNA shots.
Moderna's mRNA vaccine is not approved for use in Australia yet.

However, it has been widely used in the US and elsewhere, and the federal government has ordered 25 million doses, pending approval from the Therapeutic Goods Administration.

What Australia is now hoping to do locally​Interest is clearly growing in mRNA.

"There's such a buzz around RNA as a technology platform, because it's gone past the proof of concept," Professor Munro said.

Earlier this year, the federal government announced an "approach to market" (ATM) where it asked for proposals to set up end-to-end mRNA vaccine manufacturing in Australia. That means a set-up that can do the whole supply chain domestically, without imports.

Crucially, it wants proposals that can deliver so-called population-scale quantities — enough doses for our entire country — within three years.

The ATM notes this is not just about delivering mRNA vaccines for COVID, but about tapping into the broader potential of this emerging space of biotechnology to help with areas like influenza or cardiovascular research.

The Commonwealth is also not obliged to fund anything out of this process.

More than a dozen applications are now being assessed, including those from CSL, BioCina, Luina Bio and IDT.


----------



## sptrawler (26 September 2021)

Victorian's are obviously fed up and are following the NSW lead, with hesitancy falling away and the vaccine up take rate increasing.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-vaccine-take-up-gps-say-20210925-p58up2.html


----------



## mullokintyre (26 September 2021)

This is one of those sorta good news /bad news stories.
The good news is that there are far fewer deaths from the rare blood clot disease that has been dtected as a side effect of the AZ vax.
The bad news is that once again the "experts" and their models had it grossly  higher than it turned out to be.
How many more times will this happen before the general public start to lose faith in experts and their models?
From ABC NEWS


> The mortality rate from a rare blood-clotting disorder linked to the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine is nearly a fifth of what experts originally thought it could be.Key points:
> 
> Experts say widespread awareness of the symptoms of clots means people are seeking medical help quickly
> They say it means treatment, even of severe cases, is more effective
> ...



I thought that the answer from Skerrit was interesting in that if indeed Australia was better able to detect much milder cases of the blood clotting, then it would make the incidence of clotting  higher than in the UK from which the original comparison was made. In Australia, where the AZ was administered almost exclusively to those over 60, the stats had 12.4  cases per million. The latest results I could find were from April 2021 (seeHERE ) which had the UK at a tad below 8 per million AZ doses .  This obviously reinforces the idea that perhaps there were a more cases of of clotting in the UK than first realised, especially as the majority of people vaccinated in UK of all ages were AZ, as that was the only one they could get. Women under 60 were twice as likely to get the clots, but that may have been because health workers, who in most countries are dominated by women.

One might argue that the experts may not have known  that the reasons above for the figures from their models being so much higher than actual figures.
However, that merely highlights the Donald Rumsfeld famous Unknown Unknowns that make modelling a bit dicey. Unless you know at the beginning what all the variables are and how each ranks in its ability to affect the outcomes, both statically and when they vary,  the outcomes  must be treated with caution.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (26 September 2021)




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## wayneL (26 September 2021)

^ ^ ^ Propaganda
\/ \/ \/ Truth


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## SirRumpole (26 September 2021)

So Sweden did it right did they ?









						A year and a half after Sweden decided not to lock down, its COVID-19 death rate is up to 10 times higher than its neighbors
					

Sweden may have seen fewer people die of COVID-19 had it implemented tighter lockdown rules or mask mandates.




					www.businessinsider.com.au


----------



## DB008 (26 September 2021)

​Covid 19 coronavirus: Norway dumps all Covid restrictions to 'live as normal'​

Norway has ditched all its Covid-19 measures, even social distancing, in a radical move that as yet has unclear consequences.

On Friday, the Nordic nation's government announced that it was time to "live as normal" with Covid-19 after 561 days of enduring some kind of restriction, whether that be venue capacity limits or stay-at-home orders.

Now, Norwegians can attend restaurants, night clubs, sporting events and anything else at full capacity, with social distancing thrown out the window.

They've even started encouraging travel outside of Europe, removing travel warnings.

The new rules come into effect on Saturday, 4pm local time (Sunday, 4am NZT).

"It is 561 days since we introduced the toughest measures in Norway in peacetime … Now the time has come to return to a normal daily life," Prime Minister Erna Solberg told reporters.

"In short, we can now live as normal."

They've even started encouraging travel outside of Europe, removing travel warnings. The new rules come into effect on Saturday, 4pm local time (Sunday, 4am NZT). "It is 561 days since we introduced the toughest measures in Norway in peacetime … Now the time has come to return to a normal daily life," Prime Minister Erna Solberg told reporters. "In short, we can now live as normal."


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/co...to-live-as-normal/T7A62JQHEWFMAVM7DX7HWANN5A/

.​


----------



## wayneL (26 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So Sweden did it right did they ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. Compare apples to apples.


----------



## IFocus (26 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So Sweden did it right did they ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Would be interesting re the long COVID numbers and impact, the US now has a significant population that's predicted to never work again.


----------



## wayneL (26 September 2021)

And they lock us up in our homes...  Hmmm


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## mullokintyre (26 September 2021)

FromABC News
Norway, which has 76% of their population having received one Vax, and 67% of its population having been fully vaxed, has announced that it will relax all restrictions  that had been in place to counter the Covid pandemic.
The Scandinavian countries are heading into Autumn and hence colder weather. 
The colder weather seems to allow the virus to survive and prosper much better than in warmer temperatures.
Norway will join Denmark  which ceased covid restrictions on September 10th.
Unfortunately, we in Victoria will likely be released in tiny increments to allow Genghis Dan to have a little longer playing dictator.
There is already talk that the first milestone will be delayed.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (26 September 2021)

Just watching the World road race cycle championship, being held in Flanders, Belgium. 
There are huge crowds of spectators jammed along the road, no one is wearing a mask.


----------



## mullokintyre (27 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Just watching the World road race cycle championship, being held in Flanders, Belgium.
> There are huge crowds of spectators jammed along the road, no one is wearing a mask.



Send  Vicpol over there, they will soon sort them out.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (27 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> There are a number of legal challenges that will need to be resolved around some of the responses to  COVID.
> The first thing to establish, is that in all cases, wherever there is conflict, a Federal Law will  overide a state or territory law.
> One of them is the  Commonwealth  Disability Discriimination Act  of 1992.



There may well  be another challenge from some organisations such as the BCA and possibly retail and hospitality  industry unions over  authorities insistence on proof of vaccine before service. 
The issue is whether the the private sector should have to police rules set by authorities. The theory being if the state sets rules, they need to police them.
From ABC News


> Soon, NSW will become the first state or territory to begin a new era in which the fully vaccinated are able to go to pubs, cafes and other venues, while the unvaccinated will be stopped at the door.
> To access these greater freedoms, members of the public will use digital or paper certificates to show a venue they've had both jabs.
> 
> Retail workers, many of them young and working on their own, are likely to be on the frontline of any public hostility to the system.
> ...



When the Victorian government instituted heavy penalties to licensed premises for serving under age drinkers, the hotel association in particular were up in arms about having to be the state governments police. Fell on deaf ears though.
We started to see some of those premises install security guards on their doors who demanded proof of age. Some even demanded that the planned attendee hand over their drivers license which was then photocopies and kept on file in case of future court actions.
One night after attending a friends wedding,  my wife who at the time was in her 50's, was refused entry to a local piano bar because she had not even bought a purse, much less her license. 
When we in Tennessee in the USA, similar thing happened , but in this case she was allowed in to the premises, but could not buy any drinks. Its all part of a cunning plan to make me pay all the time.
Mick


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## wayneL (27 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Send  Vicpol over there, they will soon sort them out.
> Mick



Yeah they'd find those elderly  couples and pregnant women and sort them out QuickSmart.


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2021)

WOW, this is a serious case of carrot and stick, I wonder how the general public will take it, the us and them is going to a whole new level.








						Unvaccinated people to stay in lockdown for months as NSW COVID blueprint revealed
					

Facemasks will be scrapped indoors from December and unvaccinated people have been warned they face another two months in lockdown under NSW's latest roadmap to COVID normal.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Ms Berejiklian also confirmed the first freedoms — such as pubs, restaurants, gyms and hairdressers reopening for fully vaccinated people — would be available from Monday, October 11, shortly after 70 per cent of people aged over 16 were double-dosed.

However, people who are unvaccinated will remain under the current stay-at-home restrictions until December 1.

When the state reaches the 80 per cent vaccination coverage milestone, unvaccinated people will get only one new freedom: attending places of worship.

A third and final stage of the roadmap will take effect on December 1, when it is expected the state will have reached 90 per cent double-dose vaccination.

On that date, unvaccinated people will be subject to the same rules as those who’ve been vaccinated.


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2021)

Even the 'Fair Work' commission is getting involved, as we've said compulsory vaccinations has to be tested against the laws of the land.








						Fair Work ruling on woman fired for refusing flu jab reveals the divide on COVID-19 vaccine mandate
					

The Fair Work Commission says an aged care facility was justified in firing someone who refused her flu jab — but it has divided commissioners.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
A deputy president of the Fair Work Commission (FWC) has railed against mandatory vaccinations in an extraordinary dissenting judgment, labelling such a decree for employees akin to "medical apartheid".
The judgement related to a woman who was sacked from her job as a receptionist at a nursing home on the New South Wales south coast, after she had refused to get a flu shot last year when it was made mandatory by the New South Wales government.
The Sapphire Coast Community Aged Care receptionist, Jennifer Kimber, claimed she had a severe allergic reaction to a flu shot in 2016 and presented a letter from a practitioner of Chinese medicine to her employer to back up her refusal to get the vaccination.

She presented another letter, from a GP in Pambula, also outlining her allergic reaction, and wrote to the chief executive of Sapphire to outline her opposition to getting the shot.

Fair Work Commission vice-president Adam Hatcher and commissioner Bernie Riordan blocked Ms Kimber's application to appeal against her dismissal, finding she "held a broader anti-vaccination position" after she "googled all sorts of stuff" in relation to side effects of vaccines.
The pair said they did not intend "in the circumstances of the current pandemic, to give any encouragement to a spurious objection to a lawful workplace vaccination requirement".
But their colleague, Ms Dean, said she "strenuously disagreed" and described it as a "serious injustice", disputing the suggestion Ms Kimber was an anti-vaxxer.

"All Australians should vigorously oppose the introduction of a system of medical apartheid and segregation in Australia," she wrote in her dissenting judgment.



> "It is an abhorrent concept and is morally and ethically wrong and the anthesis [sic] of our democratic way of life and everything we value."



Ms Dean argued the case about the flu shot should be a warning in the debate about making it compulsory to get the COVID-19 vaccination.
"Blanket rules, such as mandating vaccinations for everyone across a whole profession or industry regardless of the actual risk, fail the tests of proportionality, necessity and reasonableness," she said.

"It is more than the absolute minimum necessary to combat the crisis and cannot be justified on health grounds.

"It is a lazy and fundamentally flawed approach to risk management and should be soundly rejected by courts when challenged."

Ms Dean said Ms Kimber should be reinstated to her role.

Mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations have been ordered for workers in the aged care sector, and there were large protests in Melbourne last week about the Victorian government's decision that construction workers needed to get the shot.


----------



## DB008 (27 September 2021)

What if you have had Covid-19 already?
Do you still need to vaccinate to get 'freedoms' ?

I still advocate for everyone to get the jab, but for people that have had Covid-19, no way. Natural immunity far outweighs the jab (a study in Israel says natural immunity is more effective than Pfizer, by a huge factor - source)


----------



## DB008 (27 September 2021)

Probably one of the best recaps/Q&A about covid l've seen in a while.

Well worth it.

Two bright Doctors talking in plain english

​



.


----------



## mullokintyre (27 September 2021)

Continuing on my theme about the dangers on relying completely on modelling.
From The Australian


> Vaccination is working to reduce the number of people requiring hospitalisation and ICU treatment with Covid-19, and now the pressure on the hospital system looks set to be markedly less than predicted by government-commissioned modelling.
> At current lockdown settings in NSW, government modelling predicted there would be 560 people suffering Covid-19 in intensive care units across the state by late October. However, the number of people in ICU has been decreasing over the past week.
> 
> There were 244 Covid-19 patients in ICU in NSW on September 21, and on Monday that figure had dropped to 214. There were 1286 people in hospital with Covid-19 in NSW a week ago, and that number now stands at 1155.
> ...




But despite the failures of the models to get within a bulls roar of the actual results, the Vic premier  says 


> he believed modelling predicting a 10 per cent hospitalisation rate was “holding up”.
> 
> The Andrews government’s road map for reopening, announced just over a week ago was based on Burnet Institute modelling which predicted daily case numbers – now at a seven-day average of 723 – would reach 1400 to -2900 between October 19 and 31, with 2202 deaths expected between July 1 and December 31.
> 
> Asked whether Victoria’s trajectory resembled that predicted by the modelling, Mr Andrews said: “I think it’s at the more positive end of the scale.”



I guess that last line is true if your original  modelling had such a wide possibility of results (1400 to 2900 if you will) , you can still get in the ballpark.  
It then allows one to pick any value within the range of possibilities and run with it. 

Mick


----------



## moXJO (28 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Just watching the World road race cycle championship, being held in Flanders, Belgium.
> There are huge crowds of spectators jammed along the road, no one is wearing a mask.



Australia's should get a new national flag of a tongue licking a boot. Bastards here love getting suppressed and can't wait to dob in "wrongdoers". Surprised everyone isn't wearing stackhats just in case.


----------



## basilio (28 September 2021)

How can doctors treat sick COVID patients who refuse to believe the disease is real?

A Michigan doctor said 6 out of 8 patients who questioned his medical advice on COVID-19 have died​Sarah Al-Arshani
Mon, September 27, 2021, 9:30 AM·3 min read







Chaplain Kristin Michealsen holds the hand of a deceased COVID-19 patient while talking on the phone with the patient's family member at Providence Holy Cross Medical Center in the Mission Hills section of Los Angeles on January 9, 2021. Jae C. Hong/AP Photo

A Michigan doctor shared 8 interactions he had with severely ill COVID-19 patients in a Facebook post.
The patients decried the severity of the pandemic and questioned his medical advice.
Dr. Matthew Trunsky told The Washington Post 6 of those patients have died.
See more stories on Insider's business page.
A Michigan pulmonologist recounted interactions with eight patients who were severely suffering from COVID-19 while they ignored the reality of the virus in a Facebook post.

On Friday, Dr. Matthew Trunsky, the director of the palliative care unit at a Beaumont Health network hospital in Troy, Michigan, told The Washington Post six of those eight patients have since died.

In his September 11 Facebook post, Trunsky said some of the patients denied having the virus, requested unproven and unapproved treatments like ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine, or even said: "I'd rather die than take the vaccine."

“This is not to mention the anger the people have towards the physicians [and] the nurses who are really doing our best – and who are delivering exceptionally excellent care,” Trunsky wrote. “Of course the answer was to have been vaccinated – but they were not and now they’re angry at the medical community for their failure. Numbers are on the rise. Get your vaccine.”

Trunsky told the Post he estimates 90% of the patients he treats are unvaccinated. He said he and other healthcare workers are burnt out and he is especially saddened by the number of patients who have died from COVID-19 during the span of the pandemic.








						A Michigan doctor said 6 out of 8 patients who questioned his medical advice on COVID-19 have died
					

"The answer was to have been vaccinated - but they were not and now they're angry at the medical community for their failure," Dr. Matthew Trunsky said.




					www.businessinsider.com.au


----------



## Humid (28 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Just watching the World road race cycle championship, being held in Flanders, Belgium.
> There are huge crowds of spectators jammed along the road, no one is wearing a mask.











						Royal Show SOLD OUT out on huge first day
					

The Perth Royal Show has officially sold out of tickets on its first day, marking a triumphant return after being forced off the calendar last year due to coronavirus restrictions.




					www.perthnow.com.au
				




Flanders lol


----------



## mullokintyre (28 September 2021)

Yeah well, If Macca had not closed the border to Victorians I might have gone.
Mick


----------



## Humid (28 September 2021)

What about the grand final......


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## sptrawler (28 September 2021)

Humid said:


> What about the grand final......



Obviously the people in Sydney /  Melbourne spend a lot of money on a house, because they spend so much time in them. Boom boom.


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## mullokintyre (28 September 2021)

Humid said:


> What about the grand final......



Yeah I would have gone to that too!
Mick


----------



## wayneL (28 September 2021)

PCR tests.... and if you ever wanted to know what happened to the flu





__





						Loading...
					





					t.co


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## sptrawler (29 September 2021)

What a classic, the union adopts mandatory vaccinations for the workers and it sounds as though the union officials aren't vaccinated.   
The more things change, the more they stay the same.








						CFMEU president tests positive, Setka in isolation as COVID hits union office
					

Construction union staff, including leader John Setka, have been forced into isolation after an outbreak linked to a violent confrontation at the CFMEU’s headquarters.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (29 September 2021)

Robert Gotliebson from  The Australian has finally got his wish as the Work place health and safety authority has initiated 58 charges against Victorian Government Authorities  over the deaths of 801 people in the first Covid  wave in 2020.
It would appear that the elected members of the Government have not been charged,  just the health bureaucrats.



> Victoria’s workplace safety watchdog has charged the state’s health department with 58 breaches of the Occupational Health and Safety Act in relation to the Andrews government’s initial hotel quarantine program.
> Covid infections among security guards in two Victorian quarantine hotels in May and June 2020 led to the the state’s second wave of coronavirus, killing 801 people including 642 in aged care facilities, causing more than 18,000 to become infected, and resulting in a three-and-a-half month lockdown.
> 
> WorkSafe confirmed the charges, each of which is punishable with a fine of up to $1.64 million, early on Wednesday afternoon.
> ...



Will be interesting to see how this one pans out.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (29 September 2021)

Much has been written and said  about Ivermectin on this site, and in many newspapers and other media outlets.
It became de rigueur to refer to it as horse medicine, and in some cases dangerous to be taken.
Notwithstanding that, Ivermectin has been taken orally by children in Australia  believe it or not.
From Pub Med


> Abstract​*Purpose: *Published literature describing the use of oral ivermectin for the treatment of head lice infestation is reviewed.
> *Summary: *In the United States and globally, head lice infestation, or pediculosis capitis, remains a public health issue with both social and medical implications. Treatment with oral or topical medications is typically required for head lice eradication. Resistance to traditional topical therapies for head lice infestation is increasing, creating a need for consideration of additional treatment options. A growing body of data describing the potential role of oral ivermectin for the treatment or prevention of head lice infestation is available. A literature search identified 5 clinical trials that evaluated safety and/or effectiveness outcomes of oral ivermectin use as an alternative to malathion, other topical prescription medications, and traditional, nonprescription remedies; those studies were conducted in various parts of the world (e.g., Australia, Brazil, Mexico, Egypt) and likely involved varying types and degrees of lice resistance. Clinical research findings to date, while not consistently robust, suggest that oral ivermectin is comparable or superior in effectiveness to other topical treatment options for head lice infestation while being well tolerated and favorably perceived by patients and caretakers.
> 
> *Conclusion: *Oral ivermectin is an option for the treatment of head lice infestation, especially in individuals who have experienced a treatment failure. Published evidence from clinical trials indicates that oral ivermectin is as effective as currently available topical treatments.



The article goes further to cite a paper where Ivermectin was used as a scabies control. 
Head lice is still prevalent in OZ, though scabies is something we rarely see. 
I asked my wife the pharmacist about it and she said that had occasionally filled ivermectin scripts for children, but it was only in tropical climates (FNQ, Vanuatu and Fiji), and did not recall ever filling an ivermectin script in colder climes. 
The TGA is quite specific on what it can be used to treat (lice and scabies, nothing else)..
Mick


----------



## Humid (30 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What a classic, the union adopts mandatory vaccinations for the workers and it sounds as though the union officials aren't vaccinated.
> The more things change, the more they stay the same.
> 
> 
> ...



Where is the bit about being unvaccinated?


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Where is the bit about being unvaccinated?



When vaccinated people are tested positive, the normal protocol is to to say, despite being single or double dose vaccinated.
It is taken for granted the person isnt vaccinated, when vaccination isnt mentioned, as these are the majority of cases.
This has been the norm, as far as Ive observed.


----------



## Humid (30 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> When vaccinated people are tested positive, the normal protocol is to to say, despite being single or double dose vaccinated.
> It is taken for granted the person isnt vaccinated, when vaccination isnt mentioned, as these are the majority of cases.
> This has been the norm, as far as Ive observed.




Mr Setka has lashed protesters as “drunken morons”, insisting the majority were anti-vaccination protesters rather than union members. He received his first vaccine dose in mid-August.


----------



## IFocus (30 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Much has been written and said  about Ivermectin on this site, and in many newspapers and other media outlets.
> It became de rigueur to refer to it as horse medicine, and in some cases dangerous to be taken.
> Notwithstanding that, Ivermectin has been taken orally by children in Australia  believe it or not.
> From Pub Med
> ...





I would imaging dose rate would be the issue (your good wife would know) what dose for what purpose / age group etc.

I don't think its safety status if given at correct dosage is in question more its efficacy. 

What I have seen in the US seems to be hillbillys taking dose rates for animals and turning up at hospital some time after.


----------



## IFocus (30 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> When vaccinated people are tested positive, the normal protocol is to to say, despite being single or double dose vaccinated.
> It is taken for granted the person isnt vaccinated, when vaccination isnt mentioned, as these are the majority of cases.
> This has been the norm, as far as Ive observed.





Only seen this for people dying of COVID reporting if vaccinated or not (without getting picky)


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> Only seen this for people dying of COVID reporting if vaccinated or not (without getting picky)



In the last few days. But you could be right, it might have been mainly associated with death.





__





						COVID-19 update 29 September 2021
					

WA Health is reporting no new cases of COVID-19 overnight.




					ww2.health.wa.gov.au
				



The fully vaccinated man also tested negative to COVID-19 in the Northern Territory on 15 September.









						Fully vaccinated man tests positive after quarantine in Brisbane
					

A man has tested positive for COVID-19 despite being fully vaccinated and doing a full course of hotel quarantine, with authorities working to discover where he was infected.




					www.brisbanetimes.com.au


----------



## wayneL (30 September 2021)

Novel COV not so novel?


----------



## wayneL (30 September 2021)

Nice to be vindicated


----------



## macca (30 September 2021)

Whether people are vaccinated or not, we must  do more to slow the spread through society. Vaccinating everybody every three months is highly likely to cause a lot of grief down the track.

Looking at OS data it is clear we need other things to help people who get Covid to recover at home and lessen the load on the hospitals

We really need a "take home treatment pack" for people who test positive, whether vaccinated or not, as both can act as a spreader of Covid.

There are quite a few things that have tested OK as a "help" not a cure for Covid

This is one that has been tested in Brazil, it shows that a saline solution inhibits the growth of Covid cells in vitro. Saline solution has been used for years for people with bronchial complaints.

My wife who is a chronic asthmatic, is much better when there is salt in the air, this is why we live 200m from the ocean.


Study reveals how saline solution can inhibit replication of SARS-CoV-2​








						Study reveals how saline solution can inhibit replication of SARS-CoV-2
					

Researchers at the University of São Paulo (USP) in Brazil have shown that a hypertonic saline solution inhibits replication of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, and have elucidated the biochemical mechanism involved. An article reporting the research is published in ACS Pharmacology &...




					medicalxpress.com


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2021)

Humid said:


> Mr Setka has lashed protesters as “drunken morons”, insisting the majority were anti-vaccination protesters rather than union members. *He received his first vaccine dose in mid-August.*



Obviously a bit of vaccine hesitancy there. 🤣
I wonder which one he had?


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2021)

NSW is still powering on with vaccinations, if the majority are Pfizer and the second dose is six weeks, they should be well into the 90 percentile by Christmas.
What it does show IMO is, that the degree of hesitancy was massive, 64% fully vaccinated 87.2% first dose, just shows how the Delta strain and the lockdown fatigue has broken through.


----------



## IFocus (30 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> NSW is still powering on with vaccinations, if the majority are Pfizer and the second dose is six weeks, they should be well into the 90 percentile by Christmas.
> What it does show IMO is, that the degree of hesitancy was massive, 64% fully vaccinated 87.2% first dose, just shows how the Delta strain and the lockdown fatigue has broken through.
> 
> View attachment 130876





Vaccination rate is quite stunning inline I guess with Australia's acceptance of vaccinations generally.


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2021)

IFocus said:


> Vaccination rate is quite stunning inline I guess with Australia's acceptance of vaccinations generally.



When you consider that on 15/09 NSW had 48.5% fully vaccinated and 80.1% first dose, the turn around is astounding IMO.


----------



## rederob (30 September 2021)

wayneL said:


> Novel COV not so novel?




More posts from @wayneL linking totally discredited sources.


wayneL said:


> Nice to be vindicated




Except it's not true!


----------



## IFocus (30 September 2021)

Thought this quite funny


----------



## Humid (30 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Obviously a bit of vaccine hesitancy there. 🤣
> I wonder which one he had?



Coming from the bloke waiting for Pfizer like you I see maybe the scenerio
Comes back to the point that the head peanut didnt see the urgency in vaccines


----------



## mullokintyre (1 October 2021)

Neil de Grasse Tyson once said 
"One of the great challeneges in this world is knowing enough about a subject to think we are right, but not enough about a subject  to know you are wrong".
Notwithstanding the above, I came across tis  report from  University of California Davis


> Abstract​We found no significant difference in cycle threshold values between vaccinated and unvaccinated, asymptomatic and symptomatic groups infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta. Given the substantial proportion of asymptomatic vaccine breakthrough cases with high viral levels, interventions, including masking and testing, should be considered for all in settings with elevated COVID-19 transmission.
> Competing Interest Statement​Dr. DeRisi reports being a scientific advisor to the Public Health Co. and a scientific advisor to Allen & Co. Dr. Havlir reports non-financial support from Abbott outside of the submitted work. The other authors declare no competing interests.
> 
> Funding Statement​This work was supported by the Chan Zuckerberg Biohub, Healthy Yolo Together, the University of California, San Francisco, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, and The University of California, Davis.



It seems that  it is generally accepted that the vaccinations reduce the effects of the disease (lee severe hospitalisation, fewer deaths, etc), these guys are saying that  having the disease., regardless of previous vax status or previous history of antibody detection, the viral load is the same.
If this research turns out to be accurate  (i.e. its properly peer reviewed, and most importantly, reproducible), then it  condemns us to wearing masks forever. 
It may also explain why  the worldwide outbreaks seem to defy lockdowns of any sort.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (1 October 2021)

Hospitalisation rates before and after increased vaccinations, the numbers are quite stark, note the US is different.

Australia has some way to go

Hospitalisation rates really determine death rates both for COVID and general particularly if COVID delays normal treatments or breaks through into other hospital areas hosting vulnerable patients .

Hospitalisation rate for Australia currently running at 7% of those that test positive has been as high as 10%. At 7% you have a 1 in 14 chance of going to hospital and out of those a 20% of ending up in ICU.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 October 2021)

From the above graphs one might well ask why Israel and the UK have much lower hospitalisations per case as compared to previous outbreaks, and also when compared to  the USA? 
Even allowing for the 3:1 difference  in the Y axis scales, USA hospitalisation seems to correlate a lot more closely than that of the other two.
Wonder why that might be the case.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (1 October 2021)

Public Servants , somewhat like politicians, must go to a special school, that allows them to say that X does not exist, will not exist, has never existed.
Then they can go on and blithely describe exactly that they are going to create X, but without naming it X. 
Bit like the feds trying to argue a tax surcharge is not a tax increase.
Heres a spiffing example. 
This bureaucrat denies there is a vaccine passport. Then goes on to describe how they will create a vaccine passport, but you can't call it a vaccine passport.



Mick


----------



## wayneL (1 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Public Servants , somewhat like politicians, must go to a special school, that allows them to say that X does not exist, will not exist, has never existed.
> Then they can go on and blithely describe exactly that they are going to create X, but without naming it X.
> Bit like the feds trying to argue a tax surcharge is not a tax increase.
> Heres a spiffing example.
> ...




Claims that there is no domestic vaccine passport though. So how do the petty fascists intend to stop un (covid)vaccinated people going into certain places?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck etc


----------



## IFocus (1 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> From the above graphs one might well ask why Israel and the UK have much lower hospitalisations per case as compared to previous outbreaks, and also when compared to  the USA?
> Even allowing for the 3:1 difference  in the Y axis scales, USA hospitalisation seems to correlate a lot more closely than that of the other two.
> Wonder why that might be the case.
> Mick




Higher vaccination rates for the 2nd wave in Israel and UK, in the US vaccinations have been politicised so some states have low vaccinations and I suspect that's where h higher numbers come from.

Obesity could be another factor?


----------



## mullokintyre (1 October 2021)

Having never been to Israel, I can't comment, but two trips to the UK have shown me that the brits have a big a problem with obesity.
Whether it is as bad as the US is a moot point.
As to the politicisation of vaccines in some states, thats  going to need a little more support.
Mick


----------



## basilio (2 October 2021)

Two big stories on dealing with COVID.   First one notes how doctors have managed to drastically reduce deaths from vaccine induced blood.
Second highlights a range of measures to treat/reduce effects of COVID. Certainly offer some support for a more positive outlook - at least in countries that can afford the medicines..









						‘Just in time’: how Australian doctors drastically reduced deaths from vaccine-linked blood clots
					

Australia’s low death rate from the rare syndrome linked to the AstraZeneca shot is in no small part due to a ‘huge collaborative effort’




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Coronavirus treatments: the potential ‘game-changers’ in development
					

After positive clinical trials for the Molnupiravir antiviral drug, it joins other medicines that have shown promise




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## IFocus (2 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Having never been to Israel, I can't comment, but two trips to the UK have shown me that the brits have a big a problem with obesity.
> Whether it is as bad as the US is a moot point.
> As to the politicisation of vaccines in some states, thats  going to need a little more support.
> Mick




*Political orientation predicts science denial – here’s what that means for getting Americans vaccinated against COVID-19*


Vaccine refusal is a major reason COVID-19 infections continue to surge in the U.S. Safe and effective vaccines have been available for months, but as of mid-September 2021, only 65% of eligible American adults are fully vaccinated. In many areas, a majority of eligible adults haven’t taken advantage of the opportunity to get vaccinated.










						Political orientation predicts science denial – here's what that means for getting Americans vaccinated against COVID-19
					

Republicans are four times as likely as Democrats to say they’re not going to get the COVID-19 vaccine. What’s behind the polarization of who trusts or denies science?




					theconversation.com


----------



## wayneL (2 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> *Political orientation predicts science denial – here’s what that means for getting Americans vaccinated against COVID-19*
> 
> 
> Vaccine refusal is a major reason COVID-19 infections continue to surge in the U.S. Safe and effective vaccines have been available for months, but as of mid-September 2021, only 65% of eligible American adults are fully vaccinated. In many areas, a majority of eligible adults haven’t taken advantage of the opportunity to get vaccinated.
> ...



PhDs are also the highest proportion of refuseniks when ranked by education.... How many ways do you want to dice it?









						Most vaccine-hesitant group is those with PhDs | Principia Scientific Intl.
					

A study conducted by Carnegie Mellon University and University of Pittsburgh researchers found that vaccine hesitancy is highest among those with a PhD.




					principia-scientific.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 October 2021)

Bit of for and against mandatory vaccinations in Perth.
Love how people are getting tagged. 🤣 








						Man arrested as pro and anti vaccination protesters descend on East Perth
					

One man is arrested and police are forced to briefly close a street as pro and anti-vaccination protestors rally in the same location at East Perth.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Belli (2 October 2021)

Clever and very funny.









						Charlotte business owner explains viral truck billboard is actually a pro-vaccine message
					

A Charlotte business owner explained that a viral truck billboard is actually a pro-vaccine message he wanted to share.




					www.wbtv.com


----------



## macca (2 October 2021)

Detroit TV channel WXYZ-TV channel 7 asked for stories about people dying of Covid, instead they got stories of people dying from the vaccine

I have removed the link because Facebook has censored it but you might try searching for the TV channel


----------



## basilio (2 October 2021)

Snapshot  picture  of the impact of COVID on the US.









						Covid-19 map of the US: latest cases state by state
					

There have now more than 39 million confirmed cases of Covid-19 across the United States




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## bellenuit (2 October 2021)

macca said:


> Detroit TV channel WXYZ-TV channel 7 asked for stories about people dying of Covid, instead they got stories of people dying from the vaccine
> 
> I have removed the link because Facebook has censored it but you might try searching for the TV channel




Has anyone been certified as having died of the vaccine or of having an existing medical condition that was exasperated by the vaccine and caused their death? I bet you will find that the responders attributing the deaths to the vaccine are just the usual anti-vaxxer crowd that have zero medical knowledge and would be incapable of making that assessment.

The evidence that the vaccine saves lives has been accumulating for a long time now as has the evidence that deaths attributable to taking the vaccine are miniscule. However, feel free to ignore verified evidence by medical experts in favour of social media experts that never advanced beyond primary level education.


----------



## Humid (2 October 2021)




----------



## macca (2 October 2021)

It is obvious that Covid is a dangerous virus, I have never said that it wasn't and those people who said it was a hoax were simply wrong.

I believe that the root cause for the conspiracy theories is the complete lack of interest in finding a treatment in the early days of Covid by the leaders of the Medical Boards in Western Countries.

As testified at a number of Govt enquiries in the USA, Doctors were basically ordered not to try to help people get better, just wait for the vaccine

No other disease or virus has been so totally lacking in effort to reduce the number of hospitalisations or to ease the discomfort of people.

It has been repeatedly stated by experts that a multi pronged attack is needed, IVM or Hydrox do not work in isolation, they need to be part of a protocol and they need to start on the same day as the person is found to be positive.

The so called trials were deliberately not done this way, Why not?

When people are told they are sick they want to take Something !! they don't want to sit at home coughing up blood and then be told that is normal. Give me something to help, there is nothing !  

So people hit the net and find heaps of legitimate treatments and supplements, plus a hell of a lot of dodgy ones and that is how the weird ones get traction.

The other day I read in the paper where a Doctor in Oz told people that Hydrogen Peroxide at 100% is poisonous so you should not gargle it.

You can't buy 100% H2O2 you idiot, people have been gargling H2O2 for 100 years at 3% which is what you can buy in the shops.

Instead they tell Covid positive people to take 2 panadols, using his theory, if I take 60 panadols will I get sick? OF Course I will. See the BS that the so called experts serve up ?

No wonder people smell a rat


----------



## bellenuit (2 October 2021)

macca said:


> As testified at a number of Govt enquiries in the USA, Doctors were basically ordered not to try to help people get better, just wait for the vaccine
> 
> No other disease or virus has been so totally lacking in effort to reduce the number of hospitalisations or to ease the discomfort of people.




You really believe that garbage? That doctors were prepared to bring hospitals to the point of collapse, rather than treat the patients. And that every doctor in every country basically acted the same way? They did that all the while knowing that patients who remained untreated and infected would very likely end up causing the spread of the virus to the medical staff themselves and to their own families when they get home? And before you start saying that medical staff had PPE to protect themselves, remember that most countries, including the US, had inadequate supplies of PPE, with many reusing PPE that should have been discarded at the end of each day for several days as they had no choice. 

You really are away with the fairies if you believe that crap and can't see how utterly illogical it is.


----------



## basilio (2 October 2021)

bellenuit said:


> You really believe that garbage? That doctors were prepared to bring hospitals to the point of collapse, rather than treat the patients. And that every doctor in every country basically acted the same way? They did that all the while knowing that patients who remained untreated and infected would very likely end up causing the spread of the virus to the medical staff themselves and to their own families when they get home? And before you start saying that medical staff had PPE to protect themselves, remember that most countries, including the US, had inadequate supplies of PPE, with many reusing PPE that should have been discarded at the end of each day for several days as they had no choice.
> 
> You really are away with the fairies if you believe that crap and can't see how utterly illogical it is.




Couldn't Put It Better....


----------



## basilio (2 October 2021)

Who to blame for COVID.









						It’s very convenient for the government if you blame the spread of Covid on anyone but the government | First Dog on the Moon
					

We are looking for the guy who did this!




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## macca (3 October 2021)

We used to live in a free country, we no longer do so

There have been plenty of links put up on here about Covid treatments for those who wish to do some DD, much the same way as we do for investing.

Obviously, we don't all buy the same stocks, just as obviously, we don't all buy the same info.

The medical hierarchy stated in court last week that they do very little research in OZ, they just rely on info from Big Pharma, very cosy isn't it ?


----------



## basilio (3 October 2021)

Reality check in Victoria.
_
There are 476 people currently in hospital with COVID-19 across Victoria, with 98 of those in intensive care, including 57 people on a ventilator.

Of the people in hospital yesterday, only 5 per cent were fully vaccinated.
_
*As of Sunday afternoon, there were 12 teenage patients in hospital, none of whom were fully vaccinated. Of the 22 patients in their 20s, only one was fully vaccinated. 

There were 64 patients in their 30s, only one of whom was fully vaccinated, and 60 patients in their 40s, none of whom were fully vaccinated.
*
_Victoria this weekend recorded another record-high daily case count. And the number of new infections is expected to keep climbing until a peak later this month.









						COVID-19 patients 'begging' for vaccines before being put on life support, Melbourne nurses say
					

Two senior nurses say patients with COVID-19 are arriving at hospital unvaccinated and requesting a shot once it's too late.




					www.abc.net.au
				



_


----------



## bellenuit (3 October 2021)

_There have been plenty of links put up on here about Covid treatments for those who wish to do some DD, much the same way as we do for investing._

Yes, it's so hard to choose between who is right and wrong. I guess posting this again doesn't help you in any way.












macca said:


> The medical hierarchy stated in court last week that they do very little research in OZ, they just rely on info from Big Pharma, very cosy isn't it ?




Link please.


----------



## macca (3 October 2021)

bellenuit said:


> _There have been plenty of links put up on here about Covid treatments for those who wish to do some DD, much the same way as we do for investing._
> 
> Yes, it's so hard to choose between who is right and wrong. I guess posting this again doesn't help you in any way.
> 
> ...




I don't have accounts so cannot search but it was related to that court case in Victoria where the Govt is being sued for locking all those poor old people in together back in 2020


----------



## moXJO (3 October 2021)

I don't have time to discredit and surely this is bs. Anyone have info on this statement/study?

The number of cases experiencing adverse reactions has been reported to be 700 per 100,000 vaccinations. Currently, we see 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vaccinations, and the number of fatal side effects is at 4.11/100,000 vaccinations. For three deaths prevented by vaccination we have to accept two inflicted by vaccination. *Conclusions*: This lack of clear benefit should cause governments to rethink their vaccination policy.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm


----------



## basilio (3 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> I don't have time to discredit and surely this is bs. Anyone have info on this statement/study?
> 
> The number of cases experiencing adverse reactions has been reported to be 700 per 100,000 vaccinations. Currently, we see 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vaccinations, and the number of fatal side effects is at 4.11/100,000 vaccinations. For three deaths prevented by vaccination we have to accept two inflicted by vaccination. *Conclusions*: This lack of clear benefit should cause governments to rethink their vaccination policy.
> https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm




MoXjo have you checked your link ?
If you have you will note that it has been retracted because quote.  

_The journal is issuing this expression of concern to alert readers to significant concerns regarding the paper cited above [1].
Serious concerns have been raised about misinterpretation of the data and the conclusions.
The major concern is the misrepresentation of the COVID-19 vaccination efforts and misrepresentation of the data, e.g., Abstract: “For three deaths prevented by vaccination we have to accept two inflicted by vaccination”. Stating that these deaths linked to vaccination efforts is incorrect and distorted.
We will provide an update following the conclusion of our investigation. The authors have been notified about this Expression of Concern.
_








						Expression of Concern: Walach et al. The Safety of COVID-19 Vaccinations—We Should Rethink the Policy. Vaccines 2021, 9, 693
					

The journal is issuing this expression of concern to alert readers to significant concerns regarding the paper cited above [...]




					www.mdpi.com


----------



## moXJO (3 October 2021)

basilio said:


> MoXjo have you checked your link ?
> If you have you will note that it has been retracted because quote.
> 
> _The journal is issuing this expression of concern to alert readers to significant concerns regarding the paper cited above [1].
> ...



Is there a link explaining the numbers? Someone threw this at me today and I was unsure how to respond.


----------



## moXJO (3 October 2021)

> It’s even worse than that.
> This abysmal paper cherry-picks two data sets. One is used to estimate the number of lives saved by vaccination. They picked Israel, a country with a very low Covid death rate. They also underestimate the number of lives saved by vaccination by only counting deaths during the couple of months duration of the clinical trial, so assuming the vaccine then stops working.
> This is then compared to a Dutch data set of adverse events after vaccination. Why Holland? Because they report a lot of events. As has been said, this assumes that all deaths after vaccination were due to the vaccine. To those who say “Aha, but that’s what YOU do with deaths after a Covid test!” I would say no, we do not. We use proper statistics, not made-up methods nobody else uses, to compare the death rate after a Covid test to the underlying death rate expected in the population. This was not done here. If vaccination was killing 67% as many people as Covid, which this woeful paper claims, we’d see that in excess death stats, and we simply don’t.
> These choices can only have been made deliberately so as to exaggerate the risk of the vaccine and minimise the risk of Covid. Incidentally this author has published before on subjects ranging from homeopathy through telepathy and telekinesis so he has considerable form…




For those interested. Haven't verified it though.


----------



## wayneL (4 October 2021)

"no more dangerous than flu"


----------



## Joules MM1 (4 October 2021)

#education #Molnupiravir


----------



## rederob (4 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> "no more dangerous than flu"




Previously shown to be another of the false claims that @wayneL keeps posting.
Took 10 seconds to find that no such claim from Norway has been made.
Twits keep linking dumb tweets instead of source information!


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2021)

Sounds like 80% vaccinated is coming up soon.









						Covid-19 vaccine Australia rollout tracker by state: total number of people and per cent vaccinated, daily vaccine doses and rate of progress
					

How does Australia’s coronavirus vaccine rollout and schedule compare with other countries, and when will Australia reach 70% and 80% double dose vaccination? We bring together the latest numbers on the vaccination rate in Victoria, NSW, Queensland and other states, as well as stats, maps, live...




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mullokintyre (4 October 2021)

rederob said:


> Previously shown to be another of the false claims that @wayneL keeps posting.
> Took 10 seconds to find that no such claim from Norway has been made.
> Twits keep linking dumb tweets instead of source information!



So where are the  data that shows the claim to be false.
Its one of your favourite put downs.
Don't know what you did with your ten seconds, but please feel free to enlighten us.
Here is an ABC news item that says exactly the same thing as the the tweet.
ABC NEWS


> Norway has re-opened society, its government says, ending its COVID-19 restrictions that have limited social interaction and hobbled many businesses.
> 
> Key points:​
> Culture and sports venues will be able to utilise their full capacity
> ...



I did a quick search and about twenty other stories of Norway lifting all covid restrictions.
Hers one from the Norway government Life In Norway
But did not find  something to the contrary.
Maybe its because I use a search engine other than Google.
Or is this just a case of us plebs not being able to do data analysis?
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (5 October 2021)

It looks as though the Queensland, we will stop it, we will block it mentality is wavering. So are Victorian and NSW methods on their way?




__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.couriermail.com.au


----------



## DB008 (5 October 2021)

I'm reading that Ivermectin is having a lot of success in India, but the media isn't reporting it....


----------



## rederob (5 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> So where are the  data that shows the claim to be false.
> Its one of your favourite put downs.



There are no medical scientists of merit who regard covid to be similar to the flu.
The common flu has never overwhelmed hospital systems or ICUs for starters.  And nor is there anything called long-flu!
Here's one of many fact checking sites that canned the claim from @wayneL's link.

 As to your the rest of your comments, where is there any substantiation of the claim in the tweet?


----------



## qldfrog (5 October 2021)

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/s...before-covid-19-revealed-20211005-p58x89.html


----------



## qldfrog (5 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/s...before-covid-19-revealed-20211005-p58x89.html



Poor pangolins were already sick earlier


----------



## Belli (5 October 2021)

DB008 said:


> I'm reading that Ivermectin is having a lot of success in India, but the media isn't reporting it....




From May but no reason to support the position has changed since then.









						Forbes India - HCQ To Ivermectin: Why India Has Got It Wrong In Covid-19 Treatment
					

There are drugs that continue to be on the health ministry's treatment protocol despite evidence not inspiring confidence, while the regulator is approving medicines without following due scientific process, experts say




					www.forbesindia.com


----------



## SirRumpole (5 October 2021)

A teacher is going to challenge mandatory vaccinations in the NSW Supreme Court.









						Thousands watch live stream of court cases challenging mandatory COVID-19 vaccines for NSW workers
					

Lawyers say NSW's mandatory COVID-19 vaccines order or frontline workers breaches the right to privacy, as the Supreme Court hears four separate cases against the rules.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## IFocus (5 October 2021)

Belli said:


> From May but no reason to support the position has changed since then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Also a number of trials underway which hopefully put the issue to bed one way or the other.


----------



## sptrawler (5 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> A teacher is going to challenge mandatory vaccinations in the NSW Supreme Court.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I said early on, if you have 90% fully vaccinated, 5% hesitant and 5% anti vax so be it, those who haven't been vaccinated should be allowed the choice IMO. The main issue is getting those vaccinated, that want to be vaccinated, rather than focusing on those who don't want to be vaccinated.
I'm pleased it is going to court, at least it brings closure to the divisiveness.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 October 2021)

So today we have Victoria at1765 cases, now the highest daily caseload in OZ, surpassing NSW  and its  previous highest of 1605 back on September 11th.  It has been steadily falling since that high to todays total of 605.
We don't even know if Vic has peaked yet.
The gratuitous advice offered by Victorian pollies and health  experts to NSW about  how to contain an outbreak  is looking a little hollow now.
For all the pain everyone has gone thru in Victoria,  and we are still  getting to the bottom of the class on stats.
Mick


----------



## Belli (5 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> Also a number of trials underway which hopefully put the issue to bed one way or the other.




Yep.  They'd establish clinical trials on sniffing peppermint oil if there was any indication it would be an effective treatment.

They are really strange group.  They like to know things and find out if it actually works or not.


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2021)

SPC cleared by work safe, re compulsory vaccinations.








						SPC's vaccine mandate cleared by WorkSafe as company edges towards 100 per cent compliance
					

Fruit processor SPC has been cleared of any wrongdoing by WorkSafe Victoria, after the company decided to make the COVID-19 vaccine compulsory for its staff.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2021)

W.A Government brings in mandatory vaccinations by Jan 2022.




__





						COVID-19 vaccine mandatory for FIFO and other resources sector workers
					

New public health directions make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory for FIFO and other resources sector workers from December.




					www.wa.gov.au


----------



## wayneL (6 October 2021)

I've said it before, sometimes I question my life choices, like when someone's mongrel horse fractured my ribs 3 weeks ago.

But overall I'm so thankful I don't have some petty tyrant telling me I have to have a medical procedure to be able to work.


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> I've said it before, sometimes I question my life choices, like when someone's mongrel horse fractured my ribs 3 weeks ago.
> 
> But overall I'm so thankful I don't have some petty tyrant telling me I have to have a medical procedure to be able to work.



The problem is IMO, where does it end, who draws a line on what is fair and reasonable to be able to force people to do.
By the way second dose on Tuesday, but it was my choice.


----------



## macca (6 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The problem is IMO, where does it end, who draws a line on what is fair and reasonable to be able to force people to do.
> By the way second dose on Tuesday, but it was my choice.




What vaccine will it be next year, could be for the common cold I suppose.

Childhood disease, the Mumps had a very low impact on society but the kids have to be jabbed for it now I think


----------



## mullokintyre (7 October 2021)

If folks want further proof of the greed of Big Pharma, here is another example.
From A Harvard Analysis
Unfortunately, because the text does not copy and paste with format, the table is distorted. What it is saying , is that a 5 day treatment for the drug coats between USD 3.86 and 6.84 to produce.




> We assumed  a  treatment  regimen  of  four  200  mg  molnupiravir  capsules  twice  daily  for  5  days. Using  the  weighted  mean  market  price  for  molnupiravir  with  the  costing  algorithm  described  in the  methodology,  we  estimate  that  the  cost  of  production  for  molnupiravir  capsules  is  US$1.74 per  unit,  or  US$17.74  per  5-day  regimen. Adding  an  allowance  for  10%  profit  margin  and  taxes  in  India,  we  arrive  at  an  estimated sustainable  generic  price  of  US$1.96  per  capsule  or  US$19.99  per  5-day  regimen.
> 
> The  proprietor  pharmaceutical  company,  Merck,  announced  on  27  April  2021  that  they  had entered  into  non-exclusive  voluntary  licensing  agreements  for  molnupiravir  with  five  Indian generics  manufacturers  (Cipla  Limited,  Dr.  Reddy’s  Laboratories  Limited,  Emcure Pharmaceuticals  Limited,  Hetero  Labs  Limited,  and  Sun  Pharmaceutical  Industries  Limited). The  US  government  has  already  ordered  1.7  million  treatment  courses,  at  about  $700/patient.7 This  price  is  equal  to  about  35  times  the  estimated  sustainable  generic  price  using  current market  prices  for  the  active  ingredient  (API)  observed  in  our  analysis.  Assuming  optimization  of molnupiravir  synthesis,  and  a  resulting  drop  in  API  cost,  the  US  price  would  be  equal  to  about 161  times  the  estimated  sustainable  generic  price.



So merck is charging the feds at arate of 161 times the cost to manufacture the drug.
And to top it off, according to Zero Hedge , the drug was developed not by Merck, but a University and funded by the federal government.



> News of the oral 'wonder drug' sent shares of Merck higher last week, as the company says it can deliver 10MM doses by the end of the year.
> 
> Clearly, the pill could bring in massive profits to Merck and its partner on the drug, Ridgeback Biotherapeutics - *which licensed the drug from Emory University in 2020 *and then sold the worldwide rights to the drug to Merck for a sum which has not been disclosed.
> 
> ...



Never get between big Pharma and a bucket of money.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2021)

Looks like Australia is heading toward the top of the table, wit regard vaccinations, should be interesting to see where we sit by Christmas.








						The real reason why Australia's vaccination speed is one of the highest in the world
					

After months spinning its wheels near the start line, Australia is now roaring towards the vaccination levels that will allow a safer re-entry into the world.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Of all the nations home to at least 500,000 people, Australia currently ranks 48th on partial vaccination levels, according to the latest data compiled by Our World In Data.

Australia is 56th in the world for full vaccination coverage.



Among the relatively wealthy OECD nations, Australia still ranks near the bottom of the pack.

But the nation is now clambering upwards, with one of the fastest vaccination speeds in the world.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like Australia is heading toward the top of the table, wit regard vaccinations, should be interesting to see where we sit by Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doers it really matter how fast we are at vaccinating in a given week?
Its one of those metrics that are a bit meaningless.
The only metric that really counts are how many people are vaccinated.
That will be the metric that forces the gestapo governments to let us out.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Doers it really matter how fast we are at vaccinating in a given week?
> Its one of those metrics that are a bit meaningless.
> The only metric that really counts are how many people are vaccinated.
> That will be the metric that forces the gestapo governments to let us out.
> Mick



Does it matter? Not at all, but in the early part of the programme it was being posted how slow we were, so I thought it best to keep up with the progress for the sake of fairness. Lol


----------



## rederob (7 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Does it matter? Not at all, but in the early part of the programme it was being posted how slow we were, so I thought it best to keep up with the progress for the sake of fairness. Lol



The rate matters because of the National Cabinet agreement on opening up.
Moreover, State inconsistencies will affect vaccine passport arrangements and interstate travel in particular, especially wrt to quarantining.
Perhaps of greater concern is whether States use 70% or 80% (fully vaccinated) as their baselines.  That's because the 70% rate will see boundary spillovers and also significantly impact hospital systems.
The timeframe difference is less than a fortnight at current vaccination rates, (and less than a week at Cuba's rate!) and anyone wanting to do the risk/reward calculus needs only look at the UK or Israeli experiences for an idea of what it's like to jump earlier rather than later.


----------



## over9k (7 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> If folks want further proof of the greed of Big Pharma, here is another example.
> From A Harvard Analysis
> Unfortunately, because the text does not copy and paste with format, the table is distorted. What it is saying , is that a 5 day treatment for the drug coats between USD 3.86 and 6.84 to produce.
> 
> ...



Irrelevant. Anything like this, anything in engineering, costs nothing to actually produce. It's the R&D costs that have to be covered in which the cost lies.

The pills might be two cents, but the R&D to make the pill could have been two billion.



Come on guys, you're better than this.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 October 2021)

> Irrelevant. Anything like this, anything in engineering, costs nothing to actually produce. It's the R&D costs that have to be covered in which the cost lies.
> 
> The pills might be two cents, but the R&D to make the pill could have been two billion.



If you read the second part of the article, it says that the drug was developed by Emory University, so I doubt there were billions spent by Merck on R & D.
Mick


----------



## over9k (7 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> If you read the second part of the article, it says that the drug was developed by Emory University, so I doubt there were billions spent by Merck on R & D.
> Mick



Yes but your post wasn't actually about one isolated incident was it? 

"Never get between big pharma and a bucket of money". 

You were using it as an example of a bigger picture. Bigger picture, the overwhelming majority of stuff like this has a ridiculous sum of R&D costs that need to be accounted for. 

If you want to attack them for this one isolated incident I actually agree with you 100%, it's disgraceful, but that's not what you were doing.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 October 2021)

> If you want to attack them for this one isolated incident I actually agree with you 100%, it's disgraceful, but that's not what you were doing.



If you go back a bit on this thread you will its the second example  I have put of big Pharma screwing  the public in  pushing for booster shots.
And there are plenty of examples of others who have suggested exactly what I said.
There is also Big Pharma profits from USA  and USA Today
And hers one from the UK Morning Star
And its not a recent phenomenon. Heres an older one from Huff Post
 But the real killer is Democrat Katie Porter  doing a brilliant job of demolishing the lie about spending on R & D in a 5 year period from 2013 to 2018.
The R& D component was less than what they spent on advertising.
And all of the combined spending in that 5 year period was dwarfed by the 50 Billion spent on Dividends and share buybacks.
Well worth a look IMHO.

This was after she had  harpooned the CEO of Calgene after he upped the prices of cancer drugs.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (7 October 2021)

over9k said:


> Yes but your post wasn't actually about one isolated incident was it?
> 
> "Never get between big pharma and a bucket of money".
> 
> ...



Now that I am on a roll,  have a look at this article from From Huffington Post


> The lawmaker delivered one of her textbook takedowns during a House Committee on Oversight and Reform hearing Wednesday with current and former executives of three major drug companies. The committee is investigating the high cost of prescription drugs in the U.S.
> 
> Porter began her grilling of Mark Alles, the CEO of Celgene until 2019, by asking about the company’s repeated price hikes of the cancer drug Revlimid. It now costs $763 per pill ― up from $215 in 2005.
> Alles explained that the drug was approved for new indications, but Porter stopped him to ask if that had changed the pill in any way.
> ...




Its kinda hard to make a case for feeling sorry for Pharma Co's.
Mick


----------



## over9k (7 October 2021)

I am not going to even begin to read anything from the huffington post. I'd sooner have my eyes gouged out. It'd be less painful.


----------



## wayneL (8 October 2021)

over9k said:


> I'd sooner have my eyes gouged out. It'd be less painful.




True of any of the legacy media.

I occasionally read some sources, with safety glasses on, to avoid the self harm of ocular auto-reflexivness.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 October 2021)

over9k said:


> I am not going to even begin to read anything from the huffington post. I'd sooner have my eyes gouged out. It'd be less painful.



I posted a little while back how we  all have a tendency to dismiss sources of "news" because it does not fit our own personal bias. 
I will admit I do it myself. 
But sometimes you actually have to read (or in this case watch) the content.
In the case above, there is a Huff Post twiiter feed that contains a video of the house  drugs commission.
It would not matter who posted it, it still contains some thoroughly damning footage.
Its similar to the footage of the Victoria Police pepper spraying a 70 year old woman lying on her back.
There is no justification under any circumstances, regardless of the context, the provocation, the bad hair day.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (8 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> I occasionally read some sources, with safety glasses on, to avoid the self harm of ocular auto-reflexivness.



Occular Auto-reflexiveness! 
Pure Gold.
Mick


----------



## over9k (8 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I posted a little while back how we  all have a tendency to dismiss sources of "news" because it does not fit our own personal bias.
> I will admit I do it myself.
> But sometimes you actually have to read (or in this case watch) the content.
> In the case above, there is a Huff Post twiiter feed that contains a video of the house  drugs commission.
> ...



"If you won't read lies and drivel it's because you're biased" 

Too right I'm biased, I'm biased against utter bullsh!t.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 October 2021)

over9k said:


> "If you won't read lies and drivel it's because you're biased"
> 
> Too right I'm biased, I'm biased against utter bullsh!t.



Thats a little bit slippery.
You put the words 
"If you won't read lies and drivel it's because you're biased"
in inverted commas , as if i had said those words.
I obviously did not.
If you are quoting someone, you make sure its obvious as to who you are quoting.
As for the utter bull**** part, what part of the data I provided is utter bull****?
Did you actually look at the twitter Video put up by the huffpost, or just dismiss it out of hand?
Mick


----------



## over9k (8 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Thats a little bit slippery.
> You put the words
> "If you won't read lies and drivel it's because you're biased"
> in inverted commas , as if i had said those words.
> ...



Bingo. You're linking the huffington post, your credibility is blown by that one fact alone. I'm never going to take anything you say seriously ever again.


----------



## sptrawler (8 October 2021)

Does it really matter? Some of the stuff posted on here from every outlet is rubbish, that is why they are always in and out of court for defamation.
It is up to the reader to sort the $hit from clay and that usually means reading the same article from several different sources, eventually you work out what makes the most sense, to your reasoning.


----------



## over9k (8 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Does it really matter? Some of the stuff posted on here from every outlet is rubbish, that is why they are always in and out of court for defamation.
> It is up to the reader to sort the $hit from clay and that usually means reading the same article from several different sources, eventually you work out what makes the most sense, to your reasoning.



Huffington post has a 100% probability of being bull****.


----------



## sptrawler (8 October 2021)

I've never heard of it, is it a U.S publication?


----------



## wayneL (8 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I've never heard of it, is it a U.S publication?



US Pravda


----------



## sptrawler (8 October 2021)

On Wiki it gives this description:
_The site offers news, satire, blogs and original content, and covers politics, business, entertainment, environment, technology, popular media, lifestyle, culture, comedy, healthy living, women's interests and local news featuring columnists_.
_ The site offers content posted directly on the site as well as user-generated content via video blogging, audio, and photo.[8] In 2012, the website became the first commercially run United States digital media enterprise to win a Pulitzer Prize.__[9]_


So it sounds a bit like our newspapers, except it has won a Pulitzer prize, I think Australian newspapers have only won pizztaker prizes from memory. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (9 October 2021)

The vaccine uptake rolls on.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The vaccine uptake rolls on.
> View attachment 131322



We are doing so well! So proud of the Australian people. Despite quite evil provision of misinformation and propaganda  from foreign and (often brainwashed) domestic actors and their attempts to create disharmony and insurrection, the results have been insignificant. 
We will become one of the most vaccinated nations on the planet!

The good thing is that a lot of people will be even less easy to be fooled next time.


----------



## qldfrog (9 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> We are doing so well! So proud of the Australian people. Despite quite evil provision of misinformation and propaganda  from foreign and (often brainwashed) domestic actors and their attempts to create disharmony and insurrection, the results have been insignificant.
> We will become one of the most vaccinated nations on the planet!
> 
> The good thing is that a lot of people will be even less easy to be fooled next time.



I think the key lesson from this is that we are one of the most easily brainwashed people on earth..but hey i am a foreign actor..just not CCP
Now with the longuest lockdown on. Earth and a booming out of season! epidemy in Victoria..people locked out of their home for months and family separated be proud indeed.
the convicts react well to the whip ..


----------



## qldfrog (9 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> I think the key lesson from this is that we are one of the most easily brainwashed people on earth..but hey i am a foreign actor..just not CCP
> Now with the longuest lockdown on. Earth and a booming out of season! epidemy in Victoria..people locked out of their home for months and family separated be proud indeed.
> the convicts react well to the whip ..





Knobby22 said:


> We are doing so well! So proud of the Australian people. Despite quite evil provision of misinformation and propaganda  from foreign and (often brainwashed) domestic actors and their attempts to create disharmony and insurrection, the results have been insignificant.
> We will become one of the most vaccinated nations on the planet!
> 
> The good thing is that a lot of people will be even less easy to be fooled next time.



While you are proud, i am ashamed and disgusted.to each his own...


----------



## Knobby22 (9 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> While you are proud, i am ashamed and disgusted.to each his own...



 I am proud. We are more resistant than some, though Canada,  New Zealand  and Portugal and many other Asian and European nations are too. People think we are a little USA but we are better, much better.


----------



## sptrawler (10 October 2021)

I'm proud it is all coming to an end and we can hopefully move on to the next load of BS, that is thrown up.
Now everyone has a dose of covid in them, we can move to the next phase of enjoying our lives and seeing if there is an adverse reaction down the track. 🤣


----------



## qldfrog (10 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I'm proud it is all coming to an end and we can hopefully move on to the next load of BS, that is thrown up.
> Now everyone has a dose of covid in them, we can move to the next phase of enjoying our lives and seeing if there is an adverse reaction down the track. 🤣



Is it coming to an end?


----------



## qldfrog (10 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I am proud. We are more resistant than some, though Canada,  New Zealand  and Portugal and many other Asian and European nations are too. People think we are a little USA but we are better, much better.



Sweden can be proud of its handling ,and Denmark and places. Like that vs covid, and China for a completely different reason..but that is scary for us.
Covid saga has slashed our liberties, divided us not only jabbed and thinkers but state against state and killed and disabled countless of innocent young liveshttps://www.couriermail.com.au/coro...p/news-story/db13a493119e3ede4eff83c19905feb3
Ohhh so proud. When a simple test can check if you are or not infected and is used all over the world now to travel between countries..ohh so proud.
😭


----------



## rederob (10 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> I think the key lesson from this is that we are one of the most easily brainwashed people on earth..but hey i am a foreign actor..just not CCP
> Now with the longuest lockdown on. Earth and a booming out of season! epidemy in Victoria..people locked out of their home for months and family separated be proud indeed.
> the convicts react well to the whip ..



When we read your posts, then it is difficult to disagree.  
Lockdowns are proven to work, as shown most recently by the NSW experience. 
Meanwhile, apart from mask mandates and minor social restrictions the majority of States and Territories have experienced business as usual. 
On the other hand, the flagrant violations of public health orders from antivaxxers and so called libertarians (most who are clueless to what it means), catapulted covid numbers to almost unmanageable level in several States on a number of occasions, Victoria being proof of the problem.


qldfrog said:


> Sweden can be proud of its handling ,and Denmark and places. Like that vs covid, and China for a completely different reason..



China has used repeated hard lockdowns and the world's best app to manage covid.  But putting China with a death rate of 3 per million with countries that have hundreds (Denmark) or thousands (Swedens) of deaths per million makes no sense.  Ask West Australians if they are proud of their covid response (I am West Australian), or even most Queenslanders and, apart from some rather senseless business closure decisions , the response was echoed at recent State elections.


qldfrog said:


> Covid saga has slashed our liberties, divided us not only jabbed and thinkers but state against state and killed and disabled countless of innocent young lives



Only morons who don't understand our present system of laws consistently regurgitate the crap you have about our civil liberties.  It's those who disregard powers to implement public health measures (which existed well before covid) who have put our society at risk, time and again.  


qldfrog said:


> When a simple test can check if you are or not infected and is used all over the world now to travel between countries..ohh so proud.
> 😭



On that I can agree.  However that is a federal matter and nothing to do with lockdowns.


----------



## basilio (10 October 2021)

Anti vaxxers harrassing doctors  and pharmacists giving vaccines.  









						GPs told to 'cease and desist' delivering COVID vaccines in fake legal letter campaign
					

GPs and pharmacists receive fake legal letters ordering them to stop vaccinating amid a rise in harassment from campaigners.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (10 October 2021)

And post viral fatigue syndrome is occurring a  lot more than what occurs with the flu according to a USA study. This has economic implications obviously.









						New Study Finds More Than A Third Of COVID-19 Patients Have Symptoms Months Later
					

The symptoms, such as headache, fatigue and cognitive dysfunction, persist or recur months after diagnosis, far more often than they do for the flu, researchers say.




					www.npr.org


----------



## rederob (10 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Anti vaxxers harrassing doctors  and pharmacists giving vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have never worked out why people are so concerned about the health choices of *other *people.
If you don't want to be vaccinated, it's your choice.  But you have no right to deliberately lie about what others actually choose to do, especially when it's being done for a public good.
Then, as your post shows, there's the next level up - where people threaten and abuse others who act in their or the public interest.  It takes a special kind of stupid to do that.


----------



## basilio (10 October 2021)

rederob said:


> Then, as your post shows, there's the next level up - where people threaten and abuse others who act in their or the public interest. I*t takes a special kind of stupid to do that.*



This I'm not sure about.

I'm seeing this wide ranging narrative of  Australia falling prey to a fascist government using the COVID hoax and unnecessary vaccines as a wedge to control peoples lives. I saw a neat little sticker recently inviting people to join the white rose collective (or whatever ) to protect our country against this fascist menace. (If you remember White Rose group was an anti Hitler group in Germany  led by a young girl.)

Very potent. IMV very dangerous.









						Sophie Scholl and the White Rose | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans
					

Sophie Scholl and the White Rose movement, while less known to Americans, is a powerful example of youthful resistance to the Nazi Regime.




					www.nationalww2museum.org
				












						Anti-vaxxers have stolen an anti-Nazi group’s identity
					

The White Rose was a World War II group fighting the Nazis. Now anti-vaxxers, seeing themselves as freedom fighters, have taken up the mantle.




					forward.com
				











						AMA slams posters
					

A poster by The White Rose on Fletcher Street in East Fremantle. THE WA Australian Medical Association has slammed anti-government posters appearing on the streets of East Fremantle in the wake of …




					heraldonlinejournal.com


----------



## IFocus (10 October 2021)

Have to wonder how much is supported by foreign actors sucking in the gullible.


----------



## DB008 (10 October 2021)

If you have had Covid-19, do you still need to get the jab?


Interesting....






Your browser is not able to display this video.



​


----------



## bellenuit (10 October 2021)

DB008 said:


> If you have had Covid-19, do you still need to get the jab?




Your link doesn't work for me, but to answer your question....

'Hybrid immunity': Why people who had Covid should still get vaccinated​








						Why people who already had Covid should still get vaccinated
					

Do I need to get the vaccine if I had Covid? Hybrid immunity from natural infection plus the vaccine can give even better immune protection from reinfection or breakthrough case.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## wayneL (10 October 2021)

Satire, or prediction?


----------



## sptrawler (10 October 2021)

@wayneL  taking on the vaccination squad, he didn't even take time for a nervous pizz.



So you limp pro vaxers had better have your $hit together, or Bas will be going up Rob's butt. 🤣
I mean really if you want some of that $hit, try and give Wayne some of your $hit.


----------



## wayneL (11 October 2021)

I do daydream about stuff like this LMAO


----------



## moXJO (11 October 2021)

Oh Chairman Dan...


----------



## moXJO (11 October 2021)

> CFMEU boss John Setka threatens legal action over Victorian government’s Covid-19 vaccine mandate​Victoria’s construction sector is now considering a legal fight against the vaccine mandate, just two weeks after wild protests caused chaos in Melbourne.



What happened there


----------



## sptrawler (11 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> What happened there



Brown nosing to Dan, comes second to being chucked out of your union job by the rank and file.  🤣


----------



## wayneL (11 October 2021)

Happy Apartheid Day, friends.

I always had difficulty in wondering how evil regimes ended up how they were, how they managed to "otherize" certain groups.

Now I know, we are seeing it happening real time. Vax status being the main thing, but it isn't just that.


----------



## macca (11 October 2021)

I find this disgusting, what a sad day for Australia when we do this to our own citizens,

Surely to God we MUST provide suitable accommodation if we expect positive people to isolate or we isolate the whole family at home

COVID-19 positive Melbourne woman in tears, forced to quarantine in tent​








						COVID-19 positive Melbourne woman forced to quarantine in tent: 'This is happening to other people'
					






					9now.nine.com.au


----------



## basilio (11 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> @wayneL  taking on the vaccination squad, he didn't even take time for a nervous pizz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for the heads up.. I found a response and  yep it was another clip from the same action miview.
Enjoy


----------



## Knobby22 (11 October 2021)

macca said:


> I find this disgusting, what a sad day for Australia when we do this to our own citizens,
> 
> Surely to God we MUST provide suitable accommodation if we expect positive people to isolate or we isolate the whole family at home
> 
> ...



You get money if you test positive. You don't get a hotel room though. No one does. I guess she lives at home and doesn't want to give it to her Mum. Forced to watch her family eat dinner through the window. Why doesn't she just stay in her room like everyone else?
That reporter hasn't filled out the details.


----------



## macca (11 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> You get money if you test positive. You don't get a hotel room though. No one does. I guess she lives at home and doesn't want to give it to her Mum. Forced to watch her family eat dinner through the window. Why doesn't she just stay in her room like everyone else?
> That reporter hasn't filled out the details.




interesting one, The Vic Govt do say that emergency accomm is available if required.

I think the point she is making is a that they have not arranged more accomm for the current outbreak.

Does seem rather simple, pick up the phone and lease a  whole motel and in they go


----------



## moXJO (12 October 2021)

macca said:


> interesting one, The Vic Govt do say that emergency accomm is available if required.
> 
> I think the point she is making is a that they have not arranged more accomm for the current outbreak.
> 
> Does seem rather simple, pick up the phone and lease a  whole motel and in they go




Maybe it's just the media digging into Vic. But wtf is going on down there?
Victoria keeps making world news


----------



## mullokintyre (12 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> Victoria keeps making world news



Unfortunately, for all the wrong reasons.
Mick


----------



## DB008 (12 October 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Your link doesn't work for me, but to answer your question....




It wasn't a link, but a short video.


----------



## qldfrog (12 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> And post viral fatigue syndrome is occurring a  lot more than what occurs with the flu according to a USA study. This has economic implications obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If i do not work for 2 y, i am really tired too after an 8h day😉


----------



## Knobby22 (12 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> If i do not work for 2 y, i am really tired too after an 8h day😉



I'm stuffed and jaded. Working at home every day sucks but better than not working!


----------



## bellenuit (12 October 2021)

DB008 said:


> It wasn't a link, but a short video.



= I still doesn't work for me


----------



## wayneL (12 October 2021)

I'm really not sure which thread this should go into... here is a little say about discrimination and apartheid.

... And one of our indigenous Australians in rejecting both. I wish I could go and get my haircuts there.


----------



## wayneL (12 October 2021)

And another one for our ASF sheeple


----------



## IFocus (12 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> I'm stuffed and jaded. Working at home every day sucks but better than not working!





Hang in there Knobby hopefully the vax rates will start hitting the required levels soon


----------



## rederob (12 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> I'm really not sure which thread this should go into... here is a little say about discrimination and apartheid.
> 
> ... And one of our indigenous Australians in rejecting both. I wish I could go and get my haircuts there.




You should find a thread about stupidity!
*Health orders* have nothing to do with discrimination, religion, disability, apartheid or any of the other labels in the tweet.
If business owners don't understand that, then they are stupid.
I don't necessarily agree with all the restrictions that have been put in place as some are nonsensical.   However, hairdressing is one of the few industry sectors where people spend 15 minutes or more in close physical proximity (including touching) of others.  Spreading covid in such a work setting is not difficult to understand.  Hairdressers have never tested their clients before cutting their hair, while customers never know the health status of their hairdresser beforehand.
Employers are required to ensure that neither their employees or customers are are placed in harm or danger.  If they cannot do that, then they should not operate.  Aside from that, health orders have a legal basis and, as I said, if business owners don't understand that then they are stupid.


----------



## sptrawler (12 October 2021)

Spare AstraZeneca doses collected from pharmacies, GPs for overseas aid
					

So far more than 31 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been administered across the country, but some will expire soon.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
Hundreds of thousands of unused coronavirus vaccine doses are being rounded up from clinics around Australia to be sent to developing countries before they expire, with one million doses of AstraZeneca being collected from pharmacies alone.

The nation’s COVID taskforce has also asked GPs, Commonwealth-run clinics and Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Organisations to alert them of unused vials as first dose vaccination rates begin to slow in parts of the country.

Those unopened vials will form part of Australia’s aid to the region, with 10 million doses promised to neighbouring countries including Vietnam, Indonesia, Timor Leste and Papua New Guinea before the end of the year.

So far more than 31 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been administered across the country, and 63.4 per cent of the eligible population aged 16 and up is fully vaccinated. More than 2 million doses were administered in the last seven days.
Demand for first doses is slowing in some states and territories. The ACT has achieved a first dose rate of nearly 98 per cent of everyone aged 12 and up, while NSW has tipped over the 90 per cent mark of everyone aged over 16. Victoria has given first doses to 86.2 per cent of the eligible population.

With supply beginning to outstrip demand, Operation COVID Shield has written to vaccine providers saying the taskforce should be alerted to unused doses, particularly those that are eight weeks from expiry for AstraZeneca or four weeks from expiry for Pfizer.
Royal Australian College of General Practitioners president Dr Karen Price said while general practices are “still going through a few second doses of AstraZeneca,” increasing supply of Pfizer meant ordering of AstraZeneca had dropped off.

Loading
“It will basically be largely Pfizer now. Each GP will have different requirements, but there aren’t many people turning up for first AstraZeneca doses anymore.”
Australia has donated nearly 3.6 million doses to countries in the Indo-Pacific so far, and has committed to delivering 10 million by the end of this year and a further 10 million by the end of the financial year.


----------



## sptrawler (14 October 2021)

Interesting that Queensland is only at 71% first dose and the Premier is saying that Pfizer vaccine will have to be dumped, unless people roll up for vaccination.










__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.couriermail.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (14 October 2021)

It sounds as though the Philippines may have a hesitancy issue also, it is a shame the vaccine has a short shelf life.








						Herd immunity: The battle against vaccine hesitancy in the Philippines
					

A mayor’s idea of raffling off cows as an incentive to be immunised has been well-received but supply disruptions and public doubts are stumbling blocks.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## basilio (14 October 2021)

Another  enterprising COVID hero. Claims she is a doctor (NO! ) and has the authority to issue "medical exemption certificates  for COVID " (whatever that means. ??) .  Has issued 600 certificates at up to $150 each.

Be interesting to see how the court views her claims. This is what the  legitimatye exemptions are actually for









						Woman charged with pretending to be doctor, issuing hundreds of fake vaccine exemptions 'doesn't believe she's done anything wrong'
					

Police are trying to track down people who received a fake "medical exemption" from the Toowoomba woman, who was charging up to $150 per document.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						ATAGI Expanded Guidance on temporary medical exemptions for COVID-19 vaccines
					

The Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) have developed guidance for providers on acute major medical conditions that warrant a temporary medical exemption relevant for COVID-19 vaccines.




					www.health.gov.au


----------



## SirRumpole (15 October 2021)

This may be of interest to some.









						Why you shouldn't believe this fake 'transcript' of an expert witness's Supreme Court testimony
					

A viral post has spread on Facebook with a fake transcript claiming infectious diseases expert Kristine Macartney said vaccinated individuals are 13 times more likely to spread COVID-19.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (15 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> This may be of interest to some.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well worth reading that story in full. 

Highlights the duplicity  and fear mongering at the centre of much of the "anti vaxxer/COVID is a  hoax" industry.


----------



## basilio (15 October 2021)

The effects of long COVID need to be considered in evaluating how dangerous it is to society.  The indications are that around 5% of infected people suffer on going long term problems.  So they won't show up as deaths but the consequences will be substantial.

It's not just a nasty flu which knocks you around for couple of weeks and then you recover.









						'What's wrong with mum?': This is what it feels like to live with long COVID
					

As Australia comes to grips with the idea of living with COVID-19, Freya, Judy and Adam already know what that's like. They're part of a growing number of people with long COVID and they want to help you understand what it feels like.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## cynic (15 October 2021)

Personally, I'd prefer to read the actual court transcript, rather than a purported "fact checking" entity, and thereby discern the veracity (or lack thereof) of the various claims, and counter claims, being made.

Has anybody bothered to fact check these purported "fact checkers"?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Personally, I'd prefer to read the actual court transcript, rather than a purported "fact checking" entity, and thereby discern the veracity (or lack thereof) of the various claims, and counter claims, being made.
> 
> Has anybody bothered to fact check these purported "fact checkers"?




You are welcome to do that.


----------



## cynic (15 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> You are welcome to do that.



As are you!  
And given that you chose to post that particular article, the question becomes:

Why haven't  you done so?!


----------



## SirRumpole (15 October 2021)

cynic said:


> As are you!
> And given that you chose to post that particular article, the question becomes:
> 
> Why haven't  you done so?!



Maintaining the standard of the poster of the original article !


----------



## cynic (15 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Maintaining the standard of the poster of the original article !



Just to be clear, I'm talking about the article that you posted (post #4,488), and the claims that particular article makes.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Just to be clear, I'm talking about the article that you posted (post #4,488), and the claims that particular article makes.




If you wish to dispute that article, you are welcome to provide evidence that it is wrong.


----------



## cynic (15 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If you wish to dispute that article, you are welcome to provide evidence that it is wrong.



That's not my wish nor is it what I am saying! 

What I aam attempting to highlight is, the tendency of some, to condemn others, without first acquainting themselves with the actual facts!


----------



## SirRumpole (15 October 2021)

cynic said:


> That's not my wish nor is it what I am saying!
> 
> What I aam attempting to highlight is, the tendency of some, to condemn others, without first acquainting themselves with the actual facts!



_
"Professor Macartney told Fact Check the premise of the question related to the study that had been put to her in court constituted a "complete misinterpretation of the data"._

I find it hard to believe that a reputable media organisation would misrepresent a direct quote when doing that would make them liable for court action. So I'm more inclined to believe this article than I would believe an unidentified blogger.


----------



## cynic (15 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> _"Professor Macartney told Fact Check the premise of the question related to the study that had been put to her in court constituted a "complete misinterpretation of the data"._
> 
> I find it hard to believe that a reputable media organisation would misrepresent a direct quote when doing that would make them liable for court action. So I'm more inclined to believe this article than I would believe an unidentified blogger.



Well, you're entitled to your opinion on which information sources you consider credible. Until I see the actual court transcript, so that I can determine for myself, who's telling it true, and who's serving the porkies, I'll be reserving my judgment.

For what it's worth,  over the decades, I have been witness to numerous instances of MSM disinforming the public, in a manner, that seemed to be designed to protect favoured narratives from the presence of inconvenient facts.

As such, I most certainly do not share your confidence in the integrity of the MSM.


----------



## rederob (15 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Well, you're entitled to your opinion on which information sources you consider credible. Until I see the actual court transcript, so that I can determine for myself, who's telling it true, and who's serving the porkies, I'll be reserving my judgment.
> 
> For what it's worth,  over the decades, I have been witness to numerous instances of MSM disinforming the public, in a manner, that seemed to be designed to protect favoured narratives from the presence of inconvenient facts.
> 
> As such, I most certainly do not share your confidence in the integrity of the MSM.



Your alternative is to find a source that proves the points in the viral tweets.  
Maybe you should consider doing  that rather than running a baseless post?

In this case you are actually disputing information that is readily available from many sources that have nothing to do with MSM.  Aside from that, fact checking sites do not use MSM to confirm or otherwise what is claimed; they go to the source.
It's one thing to be a cynic, and another again to be lazy and foolish.


----------



## cynic (15 October 2021)

rederob said:


> Your alternative is to find a source that proves the points in the viral tweets.
> Maybe you should consider doing  that rather than running a baseless post?
> 
> In this case you are actually disputing information that is readily available from many sources that have nothing to do with MSM.  Aside from that, fact checking sites do not use MSM to confirm or otherwise what is claimed; they go to the source.
> It's one thing to be a cynic, and another again to be lazy and foolish.



Who is the greater fool?

Is it the one who raises the importance of examining the actual facts before leaping to judgment?

Or is it the one who chastises the former based upon a faulty understanding of the actual issue being raised?


----------



## rederob (15 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Who is the greater fool?
> 
> Is it the one who raises the importance of examining the actual facts before leaping to judgment?
> 
> Or is it the one who chastises the former based upon a faulty understanding of the actual issue being raised?



I spend a few hours a day reading about, watching or listening to covid related matters and knew instantly that the viral tweet was a crock.
On the other hand there is you, with a track record of obfuscation and ignorance that has become tedious.

One of the more recent catchphrases about covid is that "it is a pandemic of the unvaccinated".  
State Premiers and health officials that have given daily covid updates have consistently pointed to the overrepresentation of unvaccinated in covid data.  The wealth of information available to counter the tweet is difficult to miss, assuming you actually took the time to look.
You appear to be in competition with @wayneL for the most useless posts in general chat at ASF.

So here's the real point.  Offer hard data.  Offer source material.  Offer something relevant other than your opinion.  
If you do that you won't look lazy and foolish.


----------



## cynic (15 October 2021)

rederob said:


> I spend a few hours a day reading about, watching or listening to covid related matters and knew instantly that the viral tweet was a crock.
> On the other hand there is you, with a track record of obfuscation and ignorance that has become tedious.
> 
> One of the more recent catchphrases about covid is that "it is a pandemic of the unvaccinated".
> ...



Yet again the actual point that I raised has been missed.


But, since you claim to be so well informed, did your "few hours a day" happen to include a full and thorough examination of the court transcript?
(Based upon your recent responses I strongly suspect that I may already know the answer to this question, but it would be nice to confirm.)

And if not, then how can you claim to know the truth of what was (or wasn't) actually said?


----------



## IFocus (15 October 2021)

Talking about disinformation











						The Disinformation Dozen — Center for Countering Digital Hate | CCDH
					

Just twelve anti-vaxxers are responsible for almost two-thirds of anti‑vaccine content circulating on social media platforms. This new analysis of content posted or shared to social media over 812,000 times between February and March uncovers how a tiny group of determined anti-vaxxers is...




					www.counterhate.com


----------



## SirRumpole (16 October 2021)

Judge dismisses challenges to NSW COVID-19 vaccination orders for workers​








						Judge dismisses workers' legal challenge to mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations
					

The cases before the Supreme Court were initiated by unvaccinated workers from health, aged care, construction and education sectors arguing there was insufficient long-term data on COVID-19 vaccine safety and side effects.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (16 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Yet again the actual point that I raised has been missed.



You keep turning yourself into a clown with your antics.
If instead you choose to deal with data and source material you can avoid the ignorance you show with each and every post.
Here's just one example of Kristine Macartney explaining that vaccine spread is mostly amongst unvaccinated, which is contrary to the fabricated tweet's claim:





Kristine Macartney is the Director of NCIRS and her organisation's website said this in relation to false social media:
"...  online articles and posts attributed to Professor Macartney are fabricated. They do not reflect what Professor Macartney said, the official court transcript, expert opinion or fact."​
If you have evidence that Macartney said in court things that she knew to be false then she will have perjured herself, and the judgement referred to in @SirRumpole's above post would not have been made as it would have invalidated the integrity of NSW's public health orders. 

Furthermore, as I now repeat, data and source material in the public domain allow any competent person to quickly determine the claims in the linked viral tweet were fabrications.  The real problem here seems to be how *you* cannot tell what is fake and what is not given the abundance of literature available.


----------



## basilio (16 October 2021)

The beliefs of some people around COVID. Taken from Reignite Democracy

_ 
This is just crazy what’s going on now. 
The deadly jab is all part of the big plan that’s been coming for 37 years. All carefully plotted for the purposes of culling humanity with precision. At first the oldies go. We see them dropping now. Oh sure they say it’s the virus but it’s THE JAB!!
I have a friend who works in the hospital and he says that EVERY death there is someone fully vaxxed! Coincidence?? NO!
And Dan Andrew’s is reportedly a shareholder in the AstraZeneca vaccine which is OBVIOUSLY why he kept pushing for people to take the AstraZeneca!!
I’ve been telling my friends and family this all along. They reckon I’m loony, but everything fits into place! 
It’s all part of a big plan worked out amongst all the leaders across the western world. Dubbed ‘The century of the cull’ and written BY Bill Gates (his former PA) revealed this in an interview with Piers Morgan several years back according to my sources. 
Watch your backs people. This is the beginning of the biggest upheaval in history!
Grab as much dunny paper as you can because there’s gonna be some serious shortages real soon and you don’t wanna be left short when the **** hits! 
_
 ........................................            
THE INJECTION COMES WITH TOTAL INVASION OF PRIVACY>>>>BLU TOOTH NANO CHIP
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.bitchute.com/video/xkqUqd05jRFV/?fbclid=IwAR00c-LyLBdi19h893ROrv-6mNfszebxBwDb_FDB73IJ3hDCNceQZaRlWsQ&h=AT3fyky3pKg9iVron7pfeNdYTM5aT8RzGQCV0AT828Iji1QMXLTSwwwfiG3l7oHwbzIy8nxYuEIwHxBTzgOJlgqVoef20sN4U4WdPXYsbVrzIXV1oruhI0n9H65biEMVIg&__tn__=H-R&c[0]=AT1ZfLwIEsI3yhvwfIYOxd7WhCa6PGw6bHPET97FL9o3JNj-erPiWftTnwNEtBVI_MdCRIJuUEse-1tjai_cVdbMX7OOAY6F62G62KPdHKQuKkvp1CMEGdPt2x9Se2M1282uDH09Qmv-bA-1Ooyjs1BWPzM


----------



## SirRumpole (16 October 2021)

basilio said:


> The beliefs of some people around COVID. Taken from Reignite Democracy
> 
> _
> This is just crazy what’s going on now.
> ...



Well, that will really get w..... stirring !


----------



## SirRumpole (16 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Well, you're entitled to your opinion on which information sources you consider credible. Until I see the actual court transcript, so that I can determine for myself, who's telling it true, and who's serving the porkies, I'll be reserving my judgment.
> 
> For what it's worth,  over the decades, I have been witness to numerous instances of MSM disinforming the public, in a manner, that seemed to be designed to protect favoured narratives from the presence of inconvenient facts.
> 
> As such, I most certainly do not share your confidence in the integrity of the MSM.




I am just as cynical as you about the intentions of the MSM.

 You only have to read a Murdoch rag to know manipulation at it's grossest.

However when a person is misquoted and then goes public to refute that misrepresentation why shouldn't we believe her/him ?


----------



## cynic (16 October 2021)

rederob said:


> You keep turning yourself into a clown with your antics.
> If instead you choose to deal with data and source material you can avoid the ignorance you show with each and every post.
> Here's just one example of Kristine Macartney explaining that vaccine spread is mostly amongst unvaccinated, which is contrary to the fabricated tweet's claim:
> View attachment 131581
> ...



Errrm. Those do not look at all like court transcripts! Have you bothered to actually read them (the court transcripts) yet?!!


----------



## cynic (16 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I am just as cynical as you about the intentions of the MSM.
> 
> You only have to read a Murdoch rag to know manipulation at it's grossest.
> 
> However when a person is misquoted and then goes public to refute that misrepresentation why shouldn't we believe her/him ?



My above response to rederob applies to you also.


----------



## Belli (16 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Have you bothered to actually read them (the court transcripts) yet?!!




Here ya go.





__





						Kassam v Hazzard; Henry v Hazzard [2021] NSWSC 1320 (15 October 2021)
					





					www.austlii.edu.au
				




And





__





						RMIT FactLab
					






					www.rmit.edu.au
				












						Why you shouldn't believe this fake 'transcript' of an expert witness's Supreme Court testimony
					

A viral post has spread on Facebook with a fake transcript claiming infectious diseases expert Kristine Macartney said vaccinated individuals are 13 times more likely to spread COVID-19.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (16 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Errrm. Those do not look at all like court transcripts! Have you bothered to actually read them (the court transcripts) yet?!!



Have you ?


----------



## cynic (16 October 2021)

Belli said:


> Here ya go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for that.

Getting warmer, but I have yet to espy the court transcript featuring the 25 questions Professor Macartney answered under oath.

Is it in there someplace, or am I expected to settle for the judge's summation, which, as it happens, leaves the question about what was, or was not, actually said, unresolved.


----------



## cynic (16 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Have you ?



No. I have yet to locate such, which is why I am currently withholding judgment on who's been selling pork pies.


----------



## Belli (16 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Is it in their someplace, or am I expected to settle for the judge's summation, which, as it happens, leaves the question about what was, or was not, actually said, unresolved.




Well, that gets to a different issue.  To not accept what the judiciary has written is to imply the court is deliberately and with intent handing down a judgement against the facts presented.

As you would have probably read in the links, one of the plaintiffs lawyer's confirmed that the quotes attributed to Professor Macartney online did not appear in the official court transcript.

You may, of course, apply for a copy but I believe you would need a reason beyond simply having an interest in the matter (see "Who is entitled to a transcript of a court case" in the link below.)





__





						Transcripts
					

All formal criminal and civil court proceedings in NSW are recorded. Find out where and how to apply for transcripts.




					www.courts.nsw.gov.au


----------



## cynic (16 October 2021)

Belli said:


> Well, that gets to a different issue.  To not accept what the judiciary has written is to imply the court is deliberately and with intent handing down a judgement against the facts presented.
> 
> As you would have probably read in the links, one of the defendants lawyers confirmed that the quotes attributed to Professor Macartney online did not appear in the official court transcript.
> 
> ...



Yep. I thought that may be the case.

By the way, I think it was a lawyer for one of the plaintiffs (not the defendant) that confirmed the absence, from the court transcript, of the quotes attributed to Professor Macartney.


----------



## Belli (16 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Yep. I thought that may be the case.
> 
> By the way, I think it was a lawyer for one of the plaintiffs (not the defendant) that confirmed the absence, from the court transcript, of the quotes attributed to Professor Macartney.




He he.  Yes, I realised I used the wrong word and amended the post.  Thanks for picking that up though.


----------



## cynic (16 October 2021)

Belli said:


> He he.  Yes, I realised I used the wrong word and amended the post.  Thanks for picking that up though.



Apologies. I neglected to check for that possibility, prior to pressing the "post reply" button.


----------



## rederob (16 October 2021)

cynic said:


> What I am attempting to highlight is, the tendency of some, to condemn others, without first acquainting themselves with the actual facts!



Your problem continues to be that you assume many things, while it is you who is without facts.

Some facts:

as @Belli points out you need an acceptable reason to obtain the relevant court transcripts
assuming they could be obtained, copyright prevents them being reproduced here

I immediately knew the viral tweet contained fabrications:
neither questions posed nor answers given were consistent with proceedings
the purported first question from the barrister about double vaccinated people being more likely to get and spread covid lacked relevance
that is, what cohort/s were being compared?
I was aware of this study which made a "13 times more" claim, but it related to people vaccinated versus people who previously caught covid, so it was obvious the tweeted question was bogus

Macartney would never have contradicted the information publicly available at her organisation's website
The question on vaccine safety and effectiveness has been regularly addressed across the world and for Macartney not to know this would have been absurd.

It's a bit of a shame that people like you are unable or unwilling to work out what constitutes fake news, and then indulge in petty obfuscations to reiterate your ignorance.


----------



## sptrawler (16 October 2021)

rederob said:


> Your problem continues to be that you assume many things, while it is you who is without facts.
> 
> Some facts:
> 
> ...



Nothing like being inclusive and accepting Rob, great show of empathy and understanding.
That's how you bring people into the fold, debate and discussion at its best. 🤣


----------



## noirua (16 October 2021)

Russia has reported more than 1,000 daily COVID-related deaths for the first time since the start of the pandemic, with the country’s vaccination drive at a standstill and no restrictions in place.
16 October 2021




__





						Russia exceeds 1,000 daily COVID deaths for first time
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## sptrawler (17 October 2021)

noirua said:


> Russia has reported more than 1,000 daily COVID-related deaths for the first time since the start of the pandemic, with the country’s vaccination drive at a standstill and no restrictions in place.
> 16 October 2021
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe they don't see a problem with it?


----------



## cynic (17 October 2021)

rederob said:


> Your problem continues to be that you assume many things, while it is you who is without facts.
> 
> Some facts:
> 
> ...



Macartney was under oath when answering the 25 questions!!!
That is why I consider that information to be more dependable than her website and media appearances.

So please stop tarnishing me with your own failings.

If neither of us can view the actual transcript, we may never get to the bottom of this.

For all we know, the issue of what is, or is not, fake, could just as easily be the exact reverse of what you're claiming.


----------



## Belli (17 October 2021)

It would not surprise me if there is some investigation into what has been shown to be false reporting of what takes place in Court.





__





						Contempt generally
					






					www.judcom.nsw.gov.au
				




I acknowledge some may have a view what has been published after the Court's decision raises a doubt.  However, as previously stated, even one of the plaintiff's lawyers said the published transcript was false.

To go further beyond that is nothing but a dead end.  Leave it be and accept the Court, and the plaintiff's lawyers, have integrity.


----------



## cynic (17 October 2021)

Belli said:


> It would not surprise me if there is some investigation into what has been shown to be false reporting of what takes place in Court.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If that were so, then why not make the transcript publicly available so that the public can see for themselves?

The whole thing looks to me, suspiciously like, somebody is making a concerted effort to conceal some inconvenient facts brought to light during those court proceedings.


----------



## Belli (17 October 2021)

I did wonder when you were going to raise that issue.  No way will transcripts be released just because.  It would set a precedent and potentially impact other transcripts, which may contain sensitive or personal information not relevant to the public.

It's contorted logic but I can extend it and say you shouldn't trust the Australian Constitution as published as you weren't there when it was originally drafted despite that being before you were born - just guessing there. 

You either trust the Court process, that it has considered the evidence presented to it (knowing that false evidence is perjury and the Court has means of discovering that) and has made a decision based on that evidence or you don't trust it.

Your choice.


----------



## rederob (17 October 2021)

Belli said:


> It would not surprise me if there is some investigation into what has been shown to be false reporting of what takes place in Court.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





cynic said:


> Macartney was under oath when answering the 25 questions!!!
> That is why I consider that information to be more dependable than her website and media appearances.
> 
> So please stop tarnishing me with your own failings.
> ...



Everyone giving court testimony is under oath! 
What you contend however is that there may be truth to a viral tweet that has been many times debunked and refuted.  As @Belli noted above, not even the plaintiffs' lawyers give the tweet credibility.
Despite this all you have done is obfuscate.
Had you read @SirRumpole's tweet which linked the debunking you would have noted the ABC sighted the court transcript but did not post it.  The reason for this, which has also been explained to you, is that such publication would breach copyright.
If you were competent you would have  provided a defence for your position beyond wilful ignorance.  I do not say that lightly, as you have chosen to *ignore *all the parties who were in a position to know what was said, and they confirm the content of the viral tweet was fabricated.
Peddlers and supporters of fake news are truly harmful.  The benefits of vaccination have been continuously proven for over 200 years. Despite this you believe, without any justification beyond a continuing ignorance, that we should seriously think that one of Australia's foremost health experts actually agreed with this:






Thank you for showing us why reasonable people need to be vigilant.  When it comes to fake news there are very special people involved.


----------



## Belli (17 October 2021)

Just to add I noted what the false publication said in regard to the Judge's remarks.  That is sailing very close to the wind and one reason why it would not surprise me if aspects concerning publication of this particular document could be being looked at.






And by the way merely claiming something is in the public interest doesn't mean it is.  It has to be demonstrated that it is.  Judicial officers, who may be in a position to release court transcripts, are not the arbiters on that.


----------



## cynic (17 October 2021)

rederob said:


> Everyone giving court testimony is under oath!
> What you contend however is that there may be truth to a viral tweet that has been many times debunked and refuted.  As @Belli noted above, not even the plaintiffs' lawyers give the tweet credibility.
> Despite this all you have done is obfuscate.
> Had you read @SirRumpole's tweet which linked the debunking you would have noted the ABC sighted the court transcript but did not post it.  The reason for this, which has also been explained to you, is that such publication would breach copyright.
> ...



I take it from your various responses, that you haven't seen the court transcripts either.

Purely out of curiosity, Your Omniscience, would you, perchance, happen to know, from whence, the information conveyed via the contested facebook post/s, originated?


----------



## cynic (17 October 2021)

Belli said:


> Just to add I noted what the false publication said in regard to the Judge's remarks.  That is sailing very close to the wind and one reason why it would not surprise me if aspects concerning publication of this particular document could be being looked at.
> 
> View attachment 131603
> 
> ...



The actual ruling itself,is an entirely separate issue, and I would thoroughly recommend that nobody make the mistake of carelessly conflating it with the issue I have raised.

In the event, that, solid evidence, whether in the form of court transcripts or perhaps audio footage, of the actual responses by Professor Macartney, to questions put to her, whilst under oath, becomes available to the general public, the result, just might, perchance, prove embarassing, to those whom rushed to judgment, prior to gaining a more comprehensive understanding of the situation.

Edit: Apologies. I accidentally quoted the wrong post. This reply was intended for post #4,527


----------



## Belli (17 October 2021)

cynic said:


> In the event, that, solid evidence, whether in the form of court transcripts or perhaps audio footage, of the actual responses by Professor Macartney, to questions put to her, whilst under oath, becomes available to the general public, the result, just might, perchance, prove embarassing, to those whom rushed to judgment, prior to gaining a more comprehensive understanding of the situation.




The alternative way of dealing with it, which is what I think will happen, is to let it wither to obscurity.  No need to give them more oxygen.

And it could well be they will be rolled due to this which is at 16 October.  And vaccinations are still being administered so these numbers will grow.

https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-update-17-october-2021 







It's from the Department of Health web-site.  I've only taken a screen shot of one portion of the publication.  Just under the table I've posted is State by State by age group details.


----------



## cynic (17 October 2021)

Belli said:


> Just to add I noted what the false publication said in regard to the Judge's remarks.  That is sailing very close to the wind and one reason why it would not surprise me if aspects concerning publication of this particular document could be being looked at.
> 
> View attachment 131603
> 
> ...



Whilst I'd certainly agree it wouldn't be likely to qualify as a verbatim quote, there does appear to be content, within the summation, supportive of that, purportedly, debunked assertion.

Based upon the content of your post, I am confident you are already well aware, of the paragraph, upon which I have based my response.


----------



## cynic (17 October 2021)

Belli said:


> The alternative way of dealing with it, which is what I think will happen, is to let it wither to obscurity.  No need to give them more oxygen.
> 
> And it could well be they will be rolled due to this which is at 16 October.  And vaccinations are still being administered so these numbers will grow.
> 
> ...



Interesting info, but please bear in mind, the legitimacy of the court's ruling, is a totally separate issue, to the questions I am raising, in respect to the trustworthiness(or lack thereof) of mainstream media reporting on the findings of their associated "fact checking" entities. 
(Now that I think about it, perhaps my postings are better suited to a different thread.)


----------



## rederob (18 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Interesting info, but please bear in mind, the legitimacy of the court's ruling, is a totally separate issue, to the questions I am raising, in respect to the trustworthiness(or lack thereof) of mainstream media reporting on the findings of their associated "fact checking" entities.



That is completely false.
First, the findings required that vaccinations were proven safe and effective, while points in the viral tweet suggested the opposite.
Secondly, your concerns about the transcript were addressed and if you were able to see a copy the answer to the "is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely..." question would be found at page 58.   Aside from the fact that this was not the actual question asked, and without infringing copyright, Macartney's answer in part was that it is “somewhat out of keeping with a number of the other studies that have come out of Israel”.   Cleary her response was  *not *"yes" as stated in the fabricated viral tweet.  Furthermore, if the viral tween was true it would have been impossible for the judge to make this finding:
192 (vi) The weight of proper scientific opinion as reflected by Professor Macartney’s evidence and, to an extent, Professor Bhattacharya’s evidence, suggests that the COVID-19 vaccines reduce the risk of acquiring an infection and then transmitting the disease once infected, although the vaccines are less effective against the Delta variant.​
@cynic has shown no skills in reasoning, poor comprehension and wilful ignorance in furthering fake news at ASF.  I would not normally have bothered to be as detailed as I have as his track record is predictable.  However, his tactic is akin to what climate change deniers use wherein they have no capacity to address what the data shows so instead obfuscate with irrelevances.  Peddlers of fake news are a special breed.


----------



## cynic (18 October 2021)

rederob said:


> That is completely false.
> First, the findings required that vaccinations were proven safe and effective, while points in the viral tweet suggested the opposite.
> Secondly, your concerns about the transcript were addressed and if you were able to see a copy the answer to the "is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely..." question would be found at page 58.   Aside from the fact that this was not the actual question asked, and without infringing copyright, Macartney's answer in part was that it is “somewhat out of keeping with a number of the other studies that have come out of Israel”.   Cleary her response was  *not *"yes" as stated in the fabricated viral tweet.  Furthermore, if the viral tween was true it would have been impossible for the judge to make this finding:
> 192 (vi) The weight of proper scientific opinion as reflected by Professor Macartney’s evidence and, to an extent, Professor Bhattacharya’s evidence, suggests that the COVID-19 vaccines reduce the risk of acquiring an infection and then transmitting the disease once infected, although the vaccines are less effective against the Delta variant.​
> @cynic has shown no skills in reasoning, poor comprehension and wilful ignorance in furthering fake news at ASF.  I would not normally have bothered to be as detailed as I have as his track record is predictable.  However, his tactic is akin to what climate change deniers use wherein they have no capacity to address what the data shows so instead obfuscate with irrelevances.  Peddlers of fake news are a special breed.



Again, I feel I must ask that you refrain from tainting me with your own personal failings.

If you weren't at the hearing, haven't read the transcript, nor viewed the livestreaming, of the court proceedings, then you are no better placed than I, to know, what was (or was not) said, by Professor Macartney, whilst under cross examination.

Edit:But I can agree that this discussion will probably prove to be better suited to the fake news thread.


----------



## rederob (18 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Again, I feel I must ask that you refrain from tainting me with your own personal failings. If you weren't at the hearing, haven't read the transcript, nor viewed the livestreaming, of the court proceedings, then you are no better placed than I, to know, what was (or was not) said, by Professor Macartney, whilst under cross examination.



Concerns raised in the viral tweet have been addressed and it is clearly a fabrication.
The "25 questions" referred to were addressed in an affidavit and not in testimony.  In that regard you apparent need for a transcript to prove something that does not exist is worrisome.
Whatever you may believe, this is not about anything I have seen or heard despite your attempts to make it personal.  It's about peddling fake news.  @Belli's posts suggest this could be taken much further.   Your contributions have only served to show us the mindset of people who are unable to work out how or why something is a fabrication.  Worse, persevering with ideas that have been disproven through court judgements is harmful.
For you not to come to grips with reality is a concern.
I won't be posting more replies to you as it does you no favours.


----------



## cynic (18 October 2021)

rederob said:


> Concerns raised in the viral tweet have been addressed and it is clearly a fabrication.
> The "25 questions" referred to were addressed in an affidavit and not in testimony.  In that regard you apparent need for a transcript to prove something that does not exist is worrisome.
> Whatever you may believe, this is not about anything I have seen or heard despite your attempts to make it personal.  It's about peddling fake news.  @Belli's posts suggest this could be taken much further.   Your contributions have only served to show us the mindset of people who are unable to work out how or why something is a fabrication.  Worse, persevering with ideas that have been disproven through court judgements is harmful.
> For you not to come to grips with reality is a concern.
> I won't be posting more replies to you as it does you no favours.



It does appear, I have made the error of misattributing the Judge's reference to the 25 questions, and I thank you for drawing that to my attention.

This however, does not detract, so much as a single iota, from my concern, about the possibility that a certain expert witness, may have been cornered into acknowledging, some inconvenient facts, whilst being cross examined under oath. (Please note that I am not explicitly saying that this has happened, only that I am inclined to suspect it as a possibility).

This is why I believe, nothing less than, a full, detailed account, of the Professor's actual testimony, whilst under oath (particularly during cross examination), should be considered, before gravitating to judgment.

Even if one does not happen to share my inclination towards such suspicion, surely, one is able to recognise, the possibility (if not the plausibility), of a scenario, such as the one described, occuring during those court proceedings.


----------



## Belli (18 October 2021)

I can only but suggest you upgrade the maps in your satnav because at present


----------



## martaart077 (18 October 2021)

A recent "real life" verifiable example has got me questioning the transmissability of the covid virus.

I live in a regional city with a cross border community which has been largely untouched by the covid pandemic.  In fact no cases for 18 months or more.

Recently a local resident contracted the virus after breaking covid restrictions and travelling to Melbourne.

The person has teenage children living at home, has verifiably broken home  quarantine and has had more than a few visitors to their house due to their home based money making activities.

That person became sick enough that they sought testing, and they were confirmed positive and transferred to a medi hotel after a hospital stay.

Despite being active and not self isolating while infectious, it seems no other person has caught the virus.

So seems we dodged a bullet, or just maybe covid isn't quite as infectious as has been made out.


----------



## macca (18 October 2021)

IFocus said:


> Talking about disinformation
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It seems that Facebook has labelled this report "fake news", 

<<The report upon which the faulty narrative is based analyzed only a narrow set of 483 pieces of content over six weeks from only 30 groups, some of which are as small as 2,500 users. *They are in no way representative of the hundreds of millions of posts that people have shared about COVID-19 vaccines in the past months on Facebook*. Further, there is no explanation for how the organization behind the report identified the content they describe as “anti-vax” or how they chose the 30 groups they included in their analysis. There is no justification for their claim that their data constitute a “representative sample” of the content shared across our apps. >>









						How We’re Taking Action Against Vaccine Misinformation Superspreaders | Meta
					

We've removed over 3,000 accounts, Pages and groups for repeatedly violating our rules against spreading COVID-19 and vaccine misinformation.




					about.fb.com


----------



## bellenuit (18 October 2021)

martaart077 said:


> So seems we dodged a bullet, or just maybe covid isn't quite as infectious as has been made out.




Most likely the former. The reported transmissibility of COVID would have been based on results gleaned from millions of cases throughout the world. There will be many factors that determine its infectiousness, including the amount and nature of contact with an infected person as well as general environmental conditions in the area where contact occurs. But the person infected also plays an important part. _Some people shed far more virus, and for a longer period of time, than others, perhaps because of differences in their immune system or the distribution of virus receptors in their body. A 2019 study of healthy people showed some breathe out many more particles than others when they talk. (The volume at which they spoke explained some of the variation.)  People's behavior also plays a role. Having many social contacts or not washing your hands makes you more likely to pass on the virus._ So results obtained from observations of those who came in contact with a single infected person is unlikely to be representative of general infectiousness. The later requires observations over a much larger population base.





__





						AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## Belli (18 October 2021)

John Hopkins published an interesting article (it was an opinion piece only) earlier this year on the difficulties in conducting such studies , for example requiring a large number of participants with daily testing and tracing.  Fascinating stuff - at least to me.

Took a while but I've rediscovered the link.









						Vaccination, Transmission, and Masks - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

COVID-19 VACCINE MATTERS: A blog series discussing the evolving science and policy of COVID-19 vaccines, led by internationally renowned experts in vaccine development, Dr. Larry Corey of the Univeristy of Washington, and Dr. Chris Beyrer of Johns Hopkins University.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2021)

Well we will soon see if the experts were right and it will be a catastrophe opening up at 80%. Well the media had a bit of a run with it in late August early Sept.








						EXPERT REACTION: Modelling predicts 80 per cent adult COVID-19 vaccination won't be enough
					

EXPERT REACTION: Modelling predicts 80 per cent adult COVID-19 vaccination won't be enough 				 			A team modelling the outcome of reducing COVID-19 restrictions in Australia after 80 per cent of the adult population is vaccinated is warning that threshold is not high enough, publishing their result




					www.scimex.org
				




Now we have a run with the new info.








						Elective surgery ‘likely’ to resume next week, says Health Minister
					

Postponed elective surgery procedures are set to return as early as next week as COVID-19 hospitalisations in NSW continue to decline.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Guess we just have to roll with it, and keep reading to find out what the future holds.


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2021)

Still a lot of hesitancy in W.A.








						WA vaccine boss in strong plea to hesitant
					

Western Australia's COVID-19 vaccine commander is pleading for the state's vaccine-hesitant residents to get themselves protected before the virus reaches the local community.Chris Dawson says he remains confident WA will reach the target of 80 per cent double vaccinated among the eligible...




					au.news.yahoo.com


----------



## mullokintyre (19 October 2021)

After all the condemnation of the protesters in a number of states, I am yet to hear the MSM calling out the antifa protests.



I guess  you can only catch covid from protesters who disagree with your views.

Mick


----------



## Knobby22 (19 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> After all the condemnation of the protesters in a number of states, I am yet to hear the MSM calling out the antifa protests.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not many members. Are they yelling at a pro fascist rally or to the air?

I looked it up. No limit to outdoor gathering in QLD. So as there are less than 20 the police can't act.


----------



## mullokintyre (19 October 2021)

Still can't scratch your Ar$e here in Victoria without the permission of the stasi.
Almost enuff to make you want to shift to Queensland.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (19 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Still can't scratch your Ar$e here in Victoria without the permission of the stasi.
> Almost enuff to make you want to shift to Queensland.
> Mick



Life is completely normal here in WA... apart from the stupid QR codes all over the damn place which everybody ignores.

But... We all feel that McClown is itching to pull the trigger and do a Mao Tse Dan, given the opportunity.


----------



## rederob (19 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Almost enuff to make you want to shift to Queensland.



Or WA, SA, Tas, or even NT.
So many choices. 
West is best!


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Still can't scratch your Ar$e here in Victoria without the permission of the stasi.
> Almost enuff to make you want to shift to Queensland.
> Mick




If they let you in.


----------



## mullokintyre (19 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If they let you in.



I was hoping that mrs Wayne would be the gatekeeper.

Mick


----------



## basilio (19 October 2021)

Dan Andrews is determined that unvaccinated people won't be able to move freely in Victoria for the forseeable future.









						Victoria Covid update: restrictions for unvaccinated won’t ease until 2022, Daniel Andrews says
					

Restrictions for the unvaccinated in NSW are expected to ease in December but Victorian premier says ‘that doesn’t make any sense to me’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Knobby22 (19 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Dan Andrews is determined that unvaccinated people won't be able to move freely in Victoria for the forseeable future.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its a clever tactic. 

We will be able to spot the unvaccinated from a distance due to their long hair (no haircuts), their old clothing ( no shopping) and wild eyes (on the  way to madness).


----------



## wayneL (19 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> If they let you in.





Knobby22 said:


> Its a clever tactic.
> 
> We will be able to spot the unvaccinated from a distance due to their long hair (no haircuts), their old clothing ( no shopping) and wild eyes (on the  way to madness).



What worries me is that the likes of you (the unthinking complicit) say that with a certain amount of glee. (No respect for others decisions)


----------



## SirRumpole (19 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> What worries me is that the likes of you (the unthinking complicit) say that with a certain amount of glee. (No respect for others decisions)



No glee on my part. Its a public health issue afaic, not an ideological $hit fight.


----------



## wayneL (19 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No glee on my part. Its a public health issue afaic, not an ideological $hit fight.



A gold star for you... Or is it a gold star for me?? Hmmm.

Why not peruse the data? If you do, you might see it is ideological.


----------



## Knobby22 (19 October 2021)

Its my black humour. 
Won't happen. Vaccine passports will be history shortly after Christmas (except for air travel and cruise ships.)


----------



## wayneL (19 October 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Its my black humour.
> Won't happen. Vaccine passports will be history shortly after Christmas (except for air travel and cruise ships.)



I wish I shared your optimism.

20th century history gives me cause for pessimism... At least until everyone wakes the **** up.


----------



## noirua (20 October 2021)

New “Delta Plus” OffShoot Called AY.4.2 May Be Most Infectious Covid Variant Yet; It’s On The Rise In The UK​October 19 2021








						New “Delta Plus” OffShoot Called AY.4.2 May Be Most Infectious Covid Variant Yet; It’s On The Rise In The UK
					

A new report on Friday from the UK Health Ministry indicated the rising prevalence of a new offshoot of the Delta variant of Covid-19. The offshoot is so new that it does not have an official Pango…




					deadline.com


----------



## mullokintyre (20 October 2021)

So the wife got a call to do a locum in Albury, then got asked to go to  Merimbula for the next one.
She suggested I accompany her for the driving, and I could go fishing.
I was not worried about going to NSW, but I was worried about getting back to Vic.
So I had a look at the latest health missives from the Vic CHO.
I was interested in reading what the current border crossing permit system  had in store for me.
Victorian  Border  Crossing  Permit  Directions  (No  34) is its offical title.
It reads like a standard government legal paper, totally opaque.
And its 53 pages long.
Do the bureaucrats seriously think its citizens are going to read a 53 page legal  document without having a law degree and make any sense of it??
The crap we have to go thru to please Genghis Dan and his cohorts is enough to drive you to drink.
But not that we will be able to any time soon.
Despite the pubs and clubs opening at 11.59 on Thursday, but Police will be actively making sure that workers do not jump the gun and try to sneak in early to get the places ready for the expected hordes at 11.59 p.m.
As if it will make one iota of difference.
Just plain ar$eholes the lot of them.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (20 October 2021)

Some weeks back I posted about the gouging of Big Pharma
A pice on ABC News highlights just how greedy they are.




> COVID-19 vaccine manufacturer Pfizer has been accused of hiding behind a veil of secrecy to profiteer during the "worst public health crisis" in over 100 years.
> 
> The company is able to change its vaccine delivery schedule (without penalty)
> 
> ...



Like I said, never get between a big pharma manufacturer and a bucket of money.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (20 October 2021)

So saw an article about booster shots being need in Australia soon. 
Not sure if I'll be going for that.


----------



## Value Collector (20 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Some weeks back I posted about the gouging of Big Pharma
> A pice on ABC News highlights just how greedy they are.
> 
> 
> ...



The Astra Zeneca was being sold for $4 a piece, at cost. Unfortunately the government did a hatchet job on it and turned people towards the Pfizer which costs $40.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 October 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The Astra Zeneca was being sold for $4 a piece, at cost. Unfortunately the government did a hatchet job on it and turned people towards the Pfizer which costs $40.



I am assuming you are referring to the federal government here.
Not sure I would blame the government for the hatchet job on AZ.
It was ATAGI that put the limitations on who could use AZ, all of which they eventually  took away.
MSM  also contributed heavily.
Australia's most trusted Doctor, Norman Swan, said early in the piece, that in normal times, the AZ vaccine would be banned in Australia.
He even admitted that he may have been partially responsible for AZ hesitancy.
And who could forget the CHO from Queensland saying she would not permit  under 18 year olds  to  die because of the AZ.
And none of the above takes away from the original article I quoted about Pfizer screwing all and sundry.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (21 October 2021)

Its taken a while, but thanks to a the second highest daily total of 2235 cases versus 374 new cases in NSW, at 72.560 cases, Victoria now has the dubious honour of having the highest number of COVID cases of all the states. at 1.09 cases per 100 people, its higher than NSW at  0.89.
So what exactly did all those 262 days of lockdown achieve??
Mick


----------



## wayneL (21 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Its taken a while, but thanks to a the second highest daily total of 2235 cases versus 374 new cases in NSW, at 72.560 cases, Victoria now has the dubious honour of having the highest number of COVID cases of all the states. at 1.09 cases per 100 people, its higher than NSW at  0.89.
> So what exactly did all those 262 days of lockdown achieve??
> Mick



it is achieving precisely what all the empirical evidence seems to be saying it would.

It might be counterintuitive on the face of it, but lockdowns don't work in the long run.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 October 2021)

I noticed something a bit surprising in the Covid data that is released.
If we cast our minds back to the week just before the AFL grand final, Victorians were all warned not to go to a mates place for BBQ's etc, we were still in lockdown.
Well, on the following Thursday ,  September 30th, we had 500 increase in cases , so the AFL GF was blamed.
But the the next Thursday , September 7th, there was a jump in cases  of 220.
Then on Thursday 14th  there was a 700 jump in cases.
Today, Thursday 21st, a 400 jump in cases.
Can anyone else see a pattern here??
It seems that for every weekend since the grand final weekend, Victorians have been basically saying stuff the rules, we are going out.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (21 October 2021)

What in the name of Hades did I just hear Annastacia Palaszczuk say?


----------



## cynic (21 October 2021)

It sounded (to me at least), like she's  telling everybody, who hasn't  already done so, to go and get FTSEed.


----------



## basilio (21 October 2021)

Victoria is  steadily coming out of lockdown as vaccination rates reach 70% plus. The question remains what  will happen to the people who refuse to be vaccinated or believe COVID is a  hoax or no big deal ?

The AMA President  has expressed the view that anti vaxxers or COVID deniers should stand by their principles and let nature take it's course.

I wonder how this will go down ?

Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’​Hospital system is already under pressure and will get worse as restrictions lift, state AMA president says

“Covid-deniers” and “anti-vaxxers” should opt out of care in the public health system if they catch the virus as Victoria reopens, says the Victorian branch of the Australian Medical Association.

The AMA Victoria president, Dr Roderick McRae, said those who do not believe Covid-19 is real or a threat should update their advanced care directives and inform their relatives that they do not wish to receive care in the public health system if diagnosed with the virus.

...“We’re all juggling everything the best we can to avoid and prevent deaths. We know as we reopen it’s the unvaccinated who are going to get Covid, and they are going to get great hospital treatment with many new experimental drugs, even though they think the vaccine is ‘experimental’.

“A whole lot of these people are passionate disbelievers that the virus even exists. And they should notify their nearest and dearest and ensure there’s an advanced care directive that says, ‘If I am diagnosed with this disease caused by a virus that I don’t believe exists, I will not disturb the public hospital system, and I’ll let nature run its course’.”









						Victoria AMA says Covid-deniers and anti-vaxxers should opt out of public health system and ‘let nature run its course’
					

Hospital system is already under pressure and will get worse as restrictions lift, state AMA president says




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Belli (22 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> It was ATAGI that put the limitations on who could use AZ, all of which they eventually took away.





Many dump on ATAGI's advice of 8 April but few read it and the nuance was not well promulgated by some in authority.  Not the job of ATAGI to get up on stage to discuss the pros and cons of AstraZeneca or other vaccines.  That's the task of the talking heads and a number didn't do a good job of it.

"COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca can be used in adults aged under 50 years where the benefits are likely to outweigh the risks for that individual and the person has made an informed decision based on an understanding of the risks and benefits."

The advice was also given in the context:

The AstraZeneca vaccine is highly effective at reducing the risk of death or severe disease from COVID-19 *across all adult age groups*. At the present time, the AstraZeneca vaccine is the only vaccine option for reducing this risk for many Australians, since the global availability of alternative vaccines is highly constrained.
ATAGI recognises this safety concern will likely impact on confidence in being vaccinated with AstraZeneca vaccine in all age groups.
Until the Government can increase supply of COVID-19 vaccines other than AstraZeneca, overall coverage under Australia's COVID-19 vaccine program will likely be reduced. This will likely impact the time frame to which the Australian population is protected against COVID-19.









						ATAGI statement on AstraZeneca vaccine in response to new vaccine safety concerns
					

A statement from the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) on the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine in response to new vaccine safety concerns.




					www.health.gov.au


----------



## mullokintyre (22 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Victoria is  steadily coming out of lockdown as vaccination rates reach 70% plus. The question remains what  will happen to the people who refuse to be vaccinated or believe COVID is a  hoax or no big deal ?
> 
> The AMA President  has expressed the view that anti vaxxers or COVID deniers should stand by their principles and let nature take it's course.
> 
> ...



Well, I would be happy with that, provided the AMA agrees to let everything else run its course.In the 18 months or so of the pandemic, we have had  1611 deaths. 
Does the AMA recommend that people who smoke should opt out of the public health system? According to quit, 21,000 people died fom smoking in 2015 (the last year for which they have statistics). Thats a lot more than who have died from COVID.
Does the AMA recommend that people who are brainless enough to take any of the myriad of  "recreational Drugs". should opt out of public health system? In 2019, according to the AIHW government website, there were 1865 drug induced deaths, a good chunk more than the deaths from Covid.
Does the AMA recommend that people who consume excessive amounts of alcohol should also op out of the health syste? Not even going to bother looking up those figures.
And what about the people who are obese?
No one forces people to smoke, take  illicit drugs, drink alcohol ,  eat high carb high fat high sugar diets.
People should be free to make choices in life.
I don't have a problem with that, as long as people are prepared to take the consequences.
All of the above groups mentioned make choices. Most of them stupid.
If society is to force people to opt out of the health system because of their stupidity, it needs to be applied on a consistent basis.
Would certainly free up a lot of health resources, and would also make the shares in funeral directors soar.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (22 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, I would be happy with that, provided the AMA agrees to let everything else run its course.In the 18 months or so of the pandemic, we have had  1611 deaths.
> Does the AMA recommend that people who smoke should opt out of the public health system? According to quit, 21,000 people died fom smoking in 2015 (the last year for which they have statistics). Thats a lot more than who have died from COVID.
> Does the AMA recommend that people who are brainless enough to take any of the myriad of  "recreational Drugs". should opt out of public health system? In 2019, according to the AIHW government website, there were 1865 drug induced deaths, a good chunk more than the deaths from Covid.
> Does the AMA recommend that people who consume excessive amounts of alcohol should also op out of the health syste? Not even going to bother looking up those figures.
> ...



This highlights the absolute stunning stupidity of the current debate, and that statement from the AMA is one of the most asinine, moronic (tautology intentional) and evil things I've heard in this whole discussion.  The only deaths being considered are covid deaths... One should look up death from medical misadventure if you want a shock.

I can't believe how utterly ridiculous this whole thing is!


----------



## mullokintyre (22 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> The only deaths being considered are covid deaths.. One should look up death from medical misadventure if you want a shock.



I was going to include the medical misadventure stats, but there is very little avenue of choice in those activities, unlike all the others.
Mick


----------



## basilio (22 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, I would be happy with that, provided the AMA agrees to let everything else run its course.In the 18 months or so of the pandemic, we have had  1611 deaths.
> Does the AMA recommend that people who smoke should opt out of the public health system? According to quit, 21,000 people died fom smoking in 2015 (the last year for which they have statistics). Thats a lot more than who have died from COVID.
> Does the AMA recommend that people who are brainless enough to take any of the myriad of  "recreational Drugs". should opt out of public health system? In 2019, according to the AIHW government website, there were 1865 drug induced deaths, a good chunk more than the deaths from Covid.
> Does the AMA recommend that people who consume excessive amounts of alcohol should also op out of the health syste? Not even going to bother looking up those figures.
> ...



That is a very interesting perspective and well worth debating.  I can see some similarities  but also some striking differences.

Firstly COVID is a contagious disease where one persons behaviour directly affects others if they ignore isolation instructions. There are already health laws in place to deal with people who refuse to quarantine when required .
But secondly we now have a vaccine that is proven to largely shield people from the worst effects of the disease.  Deciding not to take this very simple step to  protect oneself is not  doing any favours to themself, their family and the community at large.

The other examples you give are very striking.  You say these are excesses are all voluntary . Perhaps. No one is actually "forcing" people to smoke, over eat,  over drink, eat take away rubbish until their livers and pancreas collapse. 

*But in reality our whole economic system  has become dependent on relentlessly promoting and persuading people to go to excess on these and many other industries.  So where do we go ?*

---------------------------------------------------------------------
 I don't seriously believe the hospital system will consider  letting "nature take it's course" with anti vaxxers or COVID deniers. In fact the probable challenge for treatment in a stretched hospital environment which is madly triaging COVID sick people will be along the following lines.
_
In one bed we have a 45 year old mother with two children, not vaccinated because she doesn't believe in it, very sick with  COVID.
In the other bed a 75 year old fully vaccinated person also  very sick with COVID .

We only have one ventilator left. Who gets it ?_


----------



## moXJO (22 October 2021)

basilio said:


> Victoria is  steadily coming out of lockdown as vaccination rates reach 70% plus. The question remains what  will happen to the people who refuse to be vaccinated or believe COVID is a  hoax or no big deal ?
> 
> The AMA President  has expressed the view that anti vaxxers or COVID deniers should stand by their principles and let nature take it's course.
> 
> ...



can they stop paying the Medicare levy and associated taxes?


----------



## wabullfrog (22 October 2021)

Quick look at Europe as it heads towards another winter.

Based on a 7 day average 48 of every 100 Covid cases worldwide are in Europe.









						Coronavirus in Europe: the latest counts, charts and maps
					

Tracking the COVID-19 outbreak, updated daily




					graphics.reuters.com
				




If you look at the link above it shows that currently it's mainly Eastern Europe that seems to be at higher levels.

Quite a few Countries in that region are at much lower vaccination levels than the rest of Europe eg Ukraine 19%, Romania 35% & Russia 36% first dose levels.  









						Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations
					

Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. Population estimates for per-capita metrics are based on the United Nations World Population Prospects. Income groups are based on the World Bank classification. A full list of our...




					ourworldindata.org
				




Those 3 Countries were also 3rd, 5th & 2nd in the World for new deaths.



			https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#main_table
		


CFR not good for a lot of those Countries as well










Russia reintroducing restrictions









						Russia bringing back COVID shutdown amid record daily deaths
					

While vaccines are readily available, uptake has remained stubbornly low amid widespread mistrust. Now the Kremlin is ordering all businesses to close in a bid to gain control.




					money.yahoo.com
				




Ukraine doing the same









						Queues for COVID vaccines in Ukraine as cases, deaths hit record
					

People in Ukraine's capital Kyiv queued in their hundreds for COVID-19 vaccinations on Thursday after a surge in daily cases and related deaths past previous highs led authorities to tighten pandemic restrictions.




					www.reuters.com
				




Will be interesting to watch how it unfolds in Europe with the large diversity of vaccination levels across the region.


----------



## macca (22 October 2021)

And right now in the UK there are 52000 new cases Today with  912 people dying in the last week, giving a death rate of 1.2 per 100k

It is exceedingly obvious that a vaccine that does Not kill the virus is no bloody good, we need an early treatment protocol as well.

FFS when are the so called experts going to pull their heads out of their A**** and admit they were conned


----------



## Belli (22 October 2021)

macca said:


> It is exceedingly obvious that a vaccine that does Not kill the virus is no bloody good,




An ignorant statement there.

A vaccine does not kill a virus which is in nature. A vaccine prevents us from becoming unwell by infection of the virus.

Now, despite this gentleman being 80 years of age, I will challenge you to go up against him to argue your proposition.  I'd be very confident to 100% if I had a bet of $1,000 on the outcome of the debate, I'd collect.









						Setting it Straight video edition: What we know about the virus
					

Your default description here




					www.doherty.edu.au


----------



## macca (22 October 2021)

Belli said:


> An ignorant statement there.
> 
> A vaccine does not kill a virus which is in nature. A vaccine prevents us from becoming unwell by infection of the virus.
> 
> ...




The vaccine only works on the spike protein, the other three components are still there, that is why a leaky vaccine allows variants to happen.

I did not say we don't need a vaccine, I said the ones we are using are not good enough AND we need an early treatment protocol to delay the incubation within the sinus area so that the body has time to defeat the rotten thing

I did read that some people in Israel are having their Fourth shot within 12 months, surely that tells us that we need to broaden our attack


----------



## wabullfrog (22 October 2021)

macca said:


> And right now in the UK there are 52000 new cases Today with  912 people dying in the last week, giving a death rate of 1.2 per 100k
> 
> It is exceedingly obvious that a vaccine that does Not kill the virus is no bloody good, we need an early treatment protocol as well.
> 
> FFS when are the so called experts going to pull their heads out of their A**** and admit they were conned





I'm not sure why you would use a single day of cases & match that with a weekly deaths figure.

For comparison figures using that methodology

Russia 36339 new cases today with 7074 people dying in the last week
Ukraine 23785 new cases today with 2866 people dying in the last week.
Romania 16110 new cases today with 2695 people dying in the last week

Unsure how you calculated the death rate.


----------



## macca (22 October 2021)

wabullfrog said:


> I'm not sure why you would use a single day of cases & match that with a weekly deaths figure.
> 
> For comparison figures using that methodology
> 
> ...




I used the UK figures as they are regarded as more accurate in general but really the main gist of my argument is that we need more than just the vaccine.

There have been numerous studies on various treatments OS that should be used as soon as people are positive, we need to attack while it is up in the sinus area not wait until it gets down into the lungs


----------



## moXJO (22 October 2021)

We had a chat about media propaganda before. This one came up in previous posts after Joe caught flack. Sanjay was the cnn source at the time. It's also why cnn is total bs.


----------



## sptrawler (23 October 2021)

Covid booster jabs start next week, I guess all the early uptake rah rah members will be down there lining up, apparently some moderna is due to go out of date soon. Your vaccine coverage is waning, get a booster, before borders open.




__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				












						Less than half of the country’s available Moderna supply has been used
					

Tens of thousands of Moderna vaccine doses are due to expire within weeks as less than half of Australia’s supplies have been used.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## rederob (23 October 2021)

macca said:


> The vaccine only works on the spike protein, the other three components are still there, that is why a leaky vaccine allows variants to happen.



You need to brush up on what you think you know.  
For a start there are many different types of vaccines and AZ is very different from Pfizer.  Next vaccines cannot cause a person to have covid, so it is *impossible* for a variant (which is just an evolutionary mutation) to arise.


macca said:


> I did not say we don't need a vaccine, I said the ones we are using are not good enough AND we need an early treatment protocol to delay the incubation within the sinus area so that the body has time to defeat the rotten thing.



Vaccines are very effective in preventing hospitalisation and death, and that's why some States are now opening up, while a number of European nations have already done so.
Treatment protocols do exist, however far and away the best thing to do is prevent the disease by getting vaccinated.  Antibodies are needed to fight any virus, and this is consistent with the adage of prevention is better than cure.  
You seem to espouse the nonsensical mantra that that people somehow know they have the disease so can prevent its incubation.  In fact very few people know they have covid until tested, and those fronting with symptoms are too late to suppress incubation.  


macca said:


> I did read that some people in Israel are having their Fourth shot within 12 months, surely that tells us that we need to broaden our attack



The simple reason is that covid antibodies don't confer long lasting immunity.  Third and subsequent "booster" (rather than full) doses may be needed for the most vulnerable.


----------



## mullokintyre (23 October 2021)

basilio said:


> That is a very interesting perspective and well worth debating.  I can see some similarities  but also some striking differences.
> 
> Firstly COVID is a contagious disease where one persons behaviour directly affects others if they ignore isolation instructions. There are already health laws in place to deal with people who refuse to quarantine when required .
> But secondly we now have a vaccine that is proven to largely shield people from the worst effects of the disease.  Deciding not to take this very simple step to  protect oneself is not  doing any favours to themself, their family and the community at large.



I agree that the person is not doing themselves any favours, but that is no different from any of the other scenarios I outlined. It is their choice. As to the effect on their family and community at large, that is a moot point.  This can only be true if the transmission of the virus is worse by a non vaxed person than a person who has the virus but has been vaxed.  The jury is still out on this one. Ther have been competing studies (isn't there always?) on this subject. (see Virus shed 1   and Virus shed 2 versus  Virus shed 3 and Virus shed 4)



basilio said:


> The other examples you give are very striking.  You say these are excesses are all voluntary . Perhaps. No one is actually "forcing" people to smoke, over eat,  over drink, eat take away rubbish until their livers and pancreas collapse.





basilio said:


> *But in reality our whole economic system  has become dependent on relentlessly promoting and persuading people to go to excess on these and many other industries.  So where do we go ?*
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> I don't seriously believe the hospital system will consider  letting "nature take it's course" with anti vaxxers or COVID deniers. In fact the probable challenge for treatment in a stretched hospital environment which is madly triaging COVID sick people will be along the following lines.



And how much of a stretch do you think the hospital system gets because of all the other free will actions of stupid people?
Those unfortunate to get  breast cancer, prostate cancer  brain Tumours, MND,  parkinsons disease, strokes, and a host of other life threatening diseases  get very little if any choice.

Mick


----------



## rederob (23 October 2021)

Let's look at some logic:


mullokintyre said:


> I agree that the person is not doing themselves any favours, but that is no different from any of the other scenarios I outlined. It is their choice.



A personal choice that potentially affects others without their consent, and can lead to their serious illness or death, is very different to the choice that is isolated to the individual person.  For example, smoking is not unlawful, but is restricted in circumstance.


mullokintyre said:


> As to the effect on their family and community at large, that is a moot point.  This can only be true if the transmission of the virus is worse by a non vaxed person than a person who has the virus but has been vaxed.



The problem with that idea is that vaccinated people are much less likely to be infected with covid.  So even if vaccinated people and unvaccinated had contracted covid and spread it at the same rate, the incidence of spread *cannot *be equal.  That's what the concept of herd immunity is based on. 


mullokintyre said:


> And how much of a stretch do you think the hospital system gets because of all the other free will actions of stupid people?
> Those unfortunate to get  breast cancer, prostate cancer  brain Tumours, MND,  parkinsons disease, strokes, and a host of other life threatening diseases  get very little if any choice.



Good points!
Not sure they come as any surprise.
Stretching them to include covid, we now add a disease that can quickly clog up hospitals if out of control, further delay elective surgeries, and take up bed space, especially in ICUs, necessary to cater for emergencies.
Beyond the hospital system we have lockdowns and border closures that have caused significant disruptions to our personal lives and to our economies.  These "stupid people" continue to include antivaxxers or disbelievers who don't follow heath orders, won't get vaccinated, and carelessly spread their disease across the country.


----------



## wayneL (23 October 2021)

COVID Derangement Syndrome... LOL


----------



## macca (23 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I agree that the person is not doing themselves any favours, but that is no different from any of the other scenarios I outlined. It is their choice. As to the effect on their family and community at large, that is a moot point.  This can only be true if the transmission of the virus is worse by a non vaxed person than a person who has the virus but has been vaxed.  The jury is still out on this one. Ther have been competing studies (isn't there always?) on this subject. (see Virus shed 1   and Virus shed 2 versus  Virus shed 3 and Virus shed 4)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have two friends who were so obese they were given free lapband surgery on their stomachs on medicare, I was told it was $30k per op.

They now weigh more than before the op, so $60k of public money wasted because of their food choices

Diabetes 2 is usually caused by eating crap yet the treatment which can go on for years is subsidised by Medicare.


----------



## rederob (23 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> COVID Derangement Syndrome... LOL




Husband and wife spend 8 minutes avoiding the role that vaccines play = covid derangement.


----------



## noirua (23 October 2021)

COVID-19 deaths in Russia hit record for fifth straight day as lockdown looms
					

Russia reported 1,075 COVID-19 deaths on Saturday, its fifth straight daily record, as the authorities prepare to shut workplaces countrywide and lock down the capital.




					www.reuters.com
				



MOSCOW, Oct 23 (Reuters) - Russia reported 1,075 COVID-19 deaths on Saturday, its fifth straight daily record, as the authorities prepare to shut workplaces countrywide and lock down the capital.


----------



## Belli (24 October 2021)

noirua said:


> COVID-19 deaths in Russia hit record for fifth straight day as lockdown looms
> 
> 
> Russia reported 1,075 COVID-19 deaths on Saturday, its fifth straight daily record, as the authorities prepare to shut workplaces countrywide and lock down the capital.
> ...




I understand there is also a requirement for those who are over 60 and unvaccinated to stay at home for three months and the same for those who have chronic condition but are unvaccinated. 

Apparently the vaccination rate for the country is in the 30% mark.


----------



## moXJO (24 October 2021)

Remember Dr. Fauci?
Turns out they did oversee gain off function.


 Oh and I also heard and I hope to God its not true that they (NIH) funded:
Having beagle puppies heads basically eaten by sand flies. And so the puppies couldn't annoy them they removed their vocal cords.

They also left dogs in the desert to attract more sand flies... for 9 days.

Ah let's see if the mob eat him.


----------



## macca (25 October 2021)

An interesting read, good background on what Covid actually is and the thoughts of the Assoc of Physicians and Surgeons in the USA.

I believe that this is where the whole world will end up, vaccine if you wish, but the numbers in the UK Singapore and Israel indicate that the vaccine is not enough to stop this thing.

Every time we get a variant we are in trouble, home quarantine and home treatment seems a likely solution and if we were to hand out this or similar info freely via the media or testing stations we stop this situation where whole clans pass it around to each other


----------



## rederob (26 October 2021)

macca said:


> An interesting read, good background on what Covid actually is and the thoughts of the Assoc of Physicians and Surgeons in the USA.
> 
> I believe that this is where the whole world will end up, vaccine if you wish, but the numbers in the UK Singapore and Israel indicate that the vaccine is not enough to stop this thing.
> 
> Every time we get a variant we are in trouble, home quarantine and home treatment seems a likely solution and if we were to hand out this or similar info freely via the media or testing stations we stop this situation where whole clans pass it around to each other



Your link is from a snake oil sales team that dress up disproven HCQ and unproven Ivermectin as treatments for covid.
It mixes some good advice and info with dodgy data and an overall poor strategy for being safe.  It reads as if covid is just a bit worse than the flu, and if that's what you want to believe then watch the online videos of covid sufferers in ICUs or listen to what their doctors and nurses say.
These snake oil sales people place vaccinations last in their 4 pillars.  They are essentially anti-vaxxers who spend 26 pages telling you things you can find elsewhere in a matter of seconds, except they omit the treatment regimes that are proven to work.


----------



## mullokintyre (26 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> Remember Dr. Fauci?
> Turns out they did oversee gain off function.
> 
> 
> ...



I presume you are referring to this pice of news.
Zero Hedge


> A top NIH official admitted in a Wednesday letter that *the* *US-funded so-called "gain-of-function" research *in Wuhan, China - and that the US nonprofit which conducted it, EcoHealth Alliance - led by the controversial Peter Daszak, *"failed to report" that they had created a chimeric bat coronavirus which could infect human*
> 
> In a letter addressed to Rep. James Comer (R-KY), NIH Principal Deputy Director Lawrence A. Tabak *cites a "limited experiment" to determine whether "spike proteins from naturally occurring bat coronaviruses circulating in China were capable of binding to the human ACE2 receptor* in a mouse model." According to the letter, humanized mice infected with the modified bat virus "became sicker" than those exposed to an unmodified version of the same bat coronavirus.
> 
> ...




Slowly, inch by inch, the information is being dragged out.
However, we need to see the actual letter before we can define it as a fact.
Mick


----------



## rederob (26 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> Remember Dr. Fauci?
> Turns out they did oversee gain off function.



Rehashing debunked claims is de rigueur for you.  Gain of function has a specific scientific meaning and this threshold was not met in the WIV funding.  The usually unflappable Fauci got visibly angry in an exchange with Rand Paul during a Senate hearing where it was clear Paul did not understand the difference between what WIV carried out and gain of function research.

Then we go on to your next bit of mud slinging:


moXJO said:


> Oh and I also heard and I hope to God its not true that they (NIH) funded: Having beagle puppies heads basically eaten by sand flies. And so the puppies couldn't annoy them they removed their vocal cords.
> They also left dogs in the desert to attract more sand flies... for 9 days.



Do you ever bother to check the rubbish you post?


----------



## moXJO (26 October 2021)

Cumo, Fauci,


rederob said:


> Then we go on to your next bit of mud slinging:
> 
> Do you ever bother to check the rubbish you post?



Yeah he's just in charge it happened under his watch. "Oh but he didn't know", like I care. I said it was nih funded and it was.

Snopes isn't a "fact" checker. It's a page dedicated to minimising or maximising political damage. It still basically stating that the experimental  happened and Fauci was the director at the time and nih funded it.

So:

The experiment happened. 

It was done in Tunisia where it's common to outsource ethics.

There are better ways to do it then letting insects bite the heads of animals. One control group was definitely in pain according to the notes.

So you actually verified it did happen. 

Own goal??

I don't need help making you look stupid. Please desist as it ruins the fun.


----------



## rederob (26 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> It was done in Tunisia where it's common to outsource ethics.



Completely false.
Why do you believe the rubbish you post!


----------



## moXJO (26 October 2021)

rederob said:


> Completely false.
> Why do you believe the rubbish you post!



Good chat


----------



## wayneL (26 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> Good chat



If it doesn't fit the narrative, it ain't true.


----------



## qldfrog (27 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No glee on my part. Its a public health issue afaic, not an ideological $hit fight.



That is where you are so wrong but hey 2 y of propaganda, i do not blame you and you are not alone.  Mean it


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2021)

Context


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2021)

And for the vestige of critical thinkers:

(I don't expect more than a few here to get the point)









						Deaths in Australia, Age at death - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare
					

Deaths data are a vital measure of a population@s health and provide information on patterns of diseases that cause death, by population groups and over time. Examining death patterns can help...




					www.aihw.gov.au


----------



## bellenuit (27 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Context





According to the below table, COVID-19 was the 3rd leading cause of death in the US in 2020 with suicides at number 11.

Aren't we lucky that unlike the USA, we had Federal and State Governments who, to a large extent, acted responsibly and ensured that we did not end up with the appalling COVID-19 death rates of the  USA, where recommended action was thwarted by anti-vax sentiment in the Federal Government and in particular among many state leaders.









						The Leading Causes of Death in the US for 2020
					

This Viewpoint from the US National Center for Health Statistics reports a 2020 mortality estimate 17.7% higher than that of 2019, with leading causes of death comprising heart disease, cancer, and COVID-19.




					jamanetwork.com


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2021)

bellenuit said:


> According to the below table, COVID-19 was the 3rd leading cause of death in the US in 2020 with suicides at number 11.
> 
> Aren't we lucky that unlike the USA, we had Federal and State Governments who, to a large extent, acted responsibly and ensured that we did not end up with the appalling COVID-19 death rates of the  USA, where recommended action was thwarted by anti-vax sentiment in the Federal Government and in particular among many state leaders.
> 
> ...



Good reading, Freakonomics.

It might lead you to see the statistics behind the statistics.


----------



## bellenuit (27 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Good reading, Freakonomics.
> 
> It might lead you to see the statistics behind the statistics




You mean as in the US statistics completely renders meaningless the idea you were trying to convey with your post, but as you have no counter argument, you might as well throw out some stupid cliche about statistics behind the statistics, something you seem unable to enumerate yourself.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 October 2021)

bellenuit said:


> According to the below table, COVID-19 was the 3rd leading cause of death in the US in 2020 with suicides at number 11.
> 
> Aren't we lucky that unlike the USA, we had Federal and State Governments who, to a large extent, acted responsibly and ensured that we did not end up with the appalling COVID-19 death rates of the  USA, where recommended action was thwarted by anti-vax sentiment in the Federal Government and in particular among many state leaders.
> 
> ...




About 6 times the death rate for flu.

Just like the flu huh ?


----------



## rederob (27 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> It might lead you to see the statistics behind the statistics.



Please show the critical thinking you referenced above, as you seem unable to work out how devastating covid has been across the globe.
As  @bellenuit pointed out, Australia's data has been conditioned by State and Territory measures to mitigate covid spread.
Here's an example of what happened in England last December:


----------



## IFocus (27 October 2021)

bellenuit said:


> According to the below table, COVID-19 was the 3rd leading cause of death in the US in 2020 with suicides at number 11.
> 
> Aren't we lucky that unlike the USA, we had Federal and State Governments who, to a large extent, acted responsibly and ensured that we did not end up with the appalling COVID-19 death rates of the  USA, where recommended action was thwarted by anti-vax sentiment in the Federal Government and in particular among many state leaders.
> 
> ...




Yup


Lost count of the times I have seen COVID deaths compared to what ever with no mention of the counter measures to reduce COVID deaths. 

Then there is the freedom mob with no mention of what the COVID death rate / hospital over loads would look like if you just let it rip.


----------



## cynic (27 October 2021)

Perhaps if one were to "follow the money", one might, perchance, gain some profound insight, into the more likely cause, underlying the reported statistics, on COVID in the US of A:
https://www.foxnews.com/health/hospitals-medicare-patients-cost-coronavirus


----------



## wayneL (27 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Perhaps if one were to "follow the money", one might, perchance, gain some profound insight, into the more likely cause, underlying the reported statistics, on COVID in the US of A:
> https://www.foxnews.com/health/hospitals-medicare-patients-cost-coronavirus



They will never indulge in critical thinking. It's futile mate.


----------



## moXJO (27 October 2021)

bellenuit said:


> According to the below table, COVID-19 was the 3rd leading cause of death in the US in 2020 with suicides at number 11.
> 
> Aren't we lucky that unlike the USA, we had Federal and State Governments who, to a large extent, acted responsibly and ensured that we did not end up with the appalling COVID-19 death rates of the  USA, where recommended action was thwarted by anti-vax sentiment in the Federal Government and in particular among many state leaders.
> 
> ...



If these figures are right then biden will end up with close to the same in his first year. I think it's around 327000 under Biden currently.
Delta was meant to be less deadly as well.

Victoria has twice as many deaths yet only 9000 or so more cases then nsw.

Interesting how the numbers are stacking up.


----------



## bellenuit (28 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> They will never indulge in critical thinking. It's futile mate.




Your critical thinking is based on a Fox News report from near the beginnings of the epidemic (May 2020) when misinformation was rife. The report itself gives very plausible reasons why COVID cases require greater funding as they incur greater costs to care for such patients. Although there may be an economic incentive to inflate COVID numbers, your article concludes:

_But despite some concerns that hospitals – which are struggling nationwide given that most states have shut down elective and non-emergency procedures which needed to keep budgets balanced – *there are no reports of flagrant exploitation, exaggerated coronavirus numbers, or evidence that facilities are purporting to profit off the pandemic to collect more in Medicare payments.*

"In a crisis like this, the fees for service payments are unlikely to be abused. Long-term hospitalizations with medically complex patients on ventilators cannot be paid with a simple standard sticker price," McGee asserted. "Hospitals should be paid for the services they are providing at a premium because of the extremely challenging situation they are in."_

I think for most of 2020, the USA was in about 10th position worldwide in number of deaths per 100k people. If you can only attribute that to hospitals being paid to report non-COVID deaths as COVID because it is better financially for them, then one must assume that you think that is also the case with the nine that rank above them which is simply nonsense. Medical funding is quite unique in the way it is handled in the USA.

You would also have to assume that countries like Russia which are experiencing over 1,000 deaths per day currently are also in it for the money. But that is not the case there. The reason that is attributed most to their high death rate is due to their poor vaccination rates because of distrust in their vaccine, partly because it is not as effective as those from the West, but also because of the influence of the anti-vaxxers.

The common denominator between different countries that have high death rates from COVID is low vaccination rates or lax protection measures or a combination of both. The fact that in the US that deaths are mainly now among the unvaccinated is testament to the effectiveness of the vaccine.


----------



## rederob (28 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Perhaps if one were to "follow the money", one might, perchance, gain some profound insight, into the more likely cause, underlying the reported statistics, on COVID in the US of A:
> https://www.foxnews.com/health/hospitals-medicare-patients-cost-coronavirus



You appear to have made a presumption that does not have a sound basis.
Worse, in this case, you make a number of points that together make no sense.
First, data on people contracting covid comes from testing sources, so the number of people in America appearing in data has very little to do with hospitalisation numbers.
Second, those in hospital get a higher standard of care than those who are not, so if we are looking at death rates, then hospitals are mitigating factors.
Third, your "follow the money" idea only means that there may be more money available for treating covid, and if there are financial irregularities they have nothing to do with the reported number of covid cases or deaths.
Concluding, you have shown no insights at all into how America collects and reports covid data and your premise is fundamentally flawed.

I note @wayneL has given you a thumbs up, suggesting you might be on to something.  However, as @bellenuit points out, @wayneL has not presented a case for his views, which suggests his critical thinking skills are at your level.   Given the abundance of good data on covid freely available you might be better placed developing your own ideas from these rather than concocting something devoid of common sense.


----------



## cynic (28 October 2021)

Well it seems the content of post #4613, has, unsurprisingly, proved most prophetic.


----------



## wayneL (29 October 2021)

A truth bomb from across the ditch. Applies equally here.


----------



## Humid (29 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Perhaps if one were to "follow the money", one might, perchance, gain some profound insight, into the more likely cause, underlying the reported statistics, on COVID in the US of A:
> https://www.foxnews.com/health/hospitals-medicare-patients-cost-coronavirus











						Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - FactCheck.org
					

Q: Are hospitals inflating the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths so they can be paid more? A: Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting. FULL QUESTION Are hospitals getting 13,000 per patient if...




					www.factcheck.org


----------



## cynic (29 October 2021)

Yep! Such a wise choice!

Let the "factcheckers" do all your thinking and research for you!

Now, now, don't let the fact, that there are no fact checks, being performed, on the fact checkers' findings, deter you!

And since you're here, today happens to be your lucky day!

It just so happens that I have a bridge with beautiful views of the harbour, that I would dearly like to sell at bargain basement prices.

And since I am feeling especially generous, I am also throwing in a free opera house, as a deal sweetener, for the first 3 callers only, so be sure to get in quick!


----------



## Humid (29 October 2021)

cynic said:


> Yep! Such a wise choice!
> 
> Let the "factcheckers" do all your thinking and research for you!
> 
> ...



Fox News lol      I'll let Rupert do yours for you


----------



## cynic (29 October 2021)

Humid said:


> Fox News lol      I'll let Rupert do yours for you



Congratulations! Being the first caller, you get a bonus opera house with your harbour bridge!


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2021)

Sounds as though vaccine hesitancy has finally cracked.








						Vaccine hesitancy collapses as most voters back reopening rollout
					

Almost 30 per cent of people said they were unlikely to get jabbed in May. In the wake of lockdowns that hesitancy rate collapsed, the Resolve poll shows.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## wayneL (29 October 2021)

FYI


----------



## wayneL (29 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds as though vaccine hesitancy has finally cracked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps horsey folk have more than the normal number of non compliant rebels and data/risk-benefit crunchers. Perhaps there are so many of us that are not reliant on jobs where there are  vax mandates...

... But I have started collating the numbers in my circle of friends, colleagues and clients. Although there are a fair few that have caved through economic necessity (and interestingly it is very common for the partner's of those people to not be vaxt); and Slough Ihaven't really finished adding up everyone I can find out about, it seems that there are at least 40% of my sample who do not intend to be vaccinated any time in the near future.

And that is a mixture of hard no's and waiting for more longer term data.

The other interesting thing is that I do ask the question about each of these people's circle of influence and they also report similar sort of numbers anecdotally.

Again with the caveat of the type of people I hang out with, I find it difficult to believe the vaccination numbers that the government is reporting.

FWIW


----------



## mullokintyre (29 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Perhaps horsey folk have more than the normal number of non compliant rebels and data/risk-benefit crunchers. Perhaps there are so many of us that are not reliant on jobs where there are  vax mandates...
> 
> ... But I have started collating the numbers in my circle of friends, colleagues and clients. Although there are a fair few that have caved through economic necessity (and interestingly it is very common for the partner's of those people to not be vaxt); and Slough Ihaven't really finished adding up everyone I can find out about, it seems that there are at least 40% of my sample who do not intend to be vaccinated any time in the near future.
> 
> ...



Sorry mrs Wayne, but on this I will have to disagree with you.
The figures put out by the government on people vaccinated are going to be too difficult to fudge to get away with it.
Standard procedures on bull**** stats is to  (a) have as few people involved in the lie,
(b) make it difficult to disprove them.
In the case of (a), there are so many people involved  in the vaccination process, it would be virtually impossible to fidge on anything except a tiny scale.
In the case of )b), you have  so many agencies reporting the date, once again it would be difficult to fudge the figures on a grand enough scale to affect them materially.
Your anecdotal evidence does not translate easily to a national scal.
the converse to your experience is that in my circle of friends and acquaintances, say of 200 people , I only know two people who have not been at least single vaxed, and don't plan to do so,.
Lets say thats less than 5% given that I don't know the status of a some people as we have not discussed it.
Mick


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## cynic (29 October 2021)

The published vaccine uptake stats, do seem to be roughly consistent with observations from my own circle of acquaintances. Some, place full faith in the recommendations of their chosen GP, others, have reluctantly accepted, primarily due to either workplace mandates, or the desire to regain some of their stolen freedom. A scant few, have been able to hold out, in the face of increasing legislative and peer pressure.


----------



## wayneL (29 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Sorry mrs Wayne, but on this I will have to disagree with you.
> The figures put out by the government on people vaccinated are going to be too difficult to fudge to get away with it.
> Standard procedures on bull**** stats is to  (a) have as few people involved in the lie,
> (b) make it difficult to disprove them.
> ...



Yep I accept that, hence my qualifying comments. It still does make me wonder however...  Rightly or wrongly I am deeply cynical about any government stats.

30 odd years have looking at "official" economic numbers has made me so.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> 30 odd years have looking at "official" economic numbers has made me so.



Yea. I guess when you consider the employment statistics, the  treasury forecasts, and the cost of any capital project manged or built by a government, its quite true.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2021)

wayneL said:


> Again with the caveat of the type of people I hang out with, I find it difficult to believe the vaccination numbers that the government is reporting.
> 
> FWIW



I think the figures quoted are over East, of my four kids, only one has had it. I also read an article that said only 255 of indigenous had received the shot, I think that was in W.A as well.


----------



## wayneL (29 October 2021)

This is farkin' intetestin'


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think the figures quoted are over East, of my four kids, only one has had it. I also read an article that said only 255 of indigenous had received the shot, I think that was in W.A as well.



That should have read 25%, obviously the shift key didn't engage, or my brain, one of the two.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 October 2021)

The FDA’s Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee met on Tuesday October 26 to discuss authorizing  the Pfizer vaccine for children between the ages of 5 to 11 years old, at which they did authorise the use of the vaccine.
From  Zero Hedge



> But the meeting roster shows that numerous members of the committee and temporary voting members have worked for Pfizer or have major connections to Pfizer.
> 
> Members include a former vice president of Pfizer Vaccines, a recent Pfizer consultant, a recent Pfizer research grant recipient, a man who mentored a current top Pfizer vaccine executive, a man who runs a center that gives out Pfizer vaccines, the chair of a Pfizer data group, a guy who was proudly photographed taking a Pfizer vaccine, and numerous people who are already on the record supporting Coronavirus vaccines for children. Meanwhile, recent FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb is on Pfizer’s board of directors.



In any other sphere, the conflict of interests would preclude them  from even attending, much less  from voting.
Imagine if you will,  if the Climate commission was going to vote on whether BP would be allowed to sell petroleum based products in Australia, and some of them had worked for, consulted for, advised to or had already expressed support fro the selling of, BP products.
Or perhaps if a committee that was meeting to approve the sale of cigarettes made by Phillip Morris  had ex Phillip Morris execs and consultants.
It could only happen in America.
Mick


----------



## basilio (30 October 2021)

Excellent story on ABC highlighting how Israel has manged to successfully  deal with COVID after a huge jump a couple of months ago,
Short story.  A national  booster shoot, and a  balance of mask mandates, enforcement of the green pass system and widespread testing with a combination of PCR and rapid antigen tests have also played a part.








						COVID-19 is here to stay, and Israel shows it's going to take more than just booster shots to live with it
					

Just six weeks after the peak of its worst wave of COVID yet, life in Israel is returning to normal thanks to a combination of booster shots, vaccine passports and mask-wearing. Their turnaround could offer a way forward for Australia.




					www.abc.net.au


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## mullokintyre (1 November 2021)

According to Todays OZ

Queensland has stood down on full pay, some 4,000 health workers.


> Almost 4000 workers have been banned from Queensland hospitals for refusing to get the Covid-19 vaccine but will remain on full pay.
> 
> All hospital workers – including nurses, doctors, receptionists and cleaners – were given Monday as a vaccination deadline.
> 
> ...



I wonder how many of them actually are vaccinated, but just refuse to give their status.
You get stood down on full pay, so why the hell not?
Australians are a resourceful lot when it comes to getting money for nothing.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (1 November 2021)

Queenslanders do a lot of strange things.
Queensland’s health minister has defended the state’s decision to continue to make overseas arrivals quarantine for 14 days despite a relaxation of rules in other states.

From Monday, both home and hotel quarantine requirements were scrapped in NSW and Victoria for returning Australians.

Queensland will keep quarantine until the state’s vaccination coverage reaches 90 per cent, which it is projected to in early 2022.
A cynic would suggest this stance is because it would mean that the 100mill  they have paid the Wagners to use the quarantine camp at Wellcamp would be a white elephant.  It may still be a white elephant if all the overseas arrivals choose to arrive in the other states first.
Unless they check the passports of arrivals from interstate, can't see how this won't be bypassed.
The Qld health minister may need to wear steel shoes to protect her feet.
Mick


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## wayneL (1 November 2021)

Wondering which of you brownshirts would cheer this on?


----------



## noirua (7 November 2021)

WHO warns Europe at epicentre of new COVID-19 surge​5 November 2021




__





						WHO warns Europe at epicentre of new COVID-19 surge
					





					www.msn.com
				












						Germany COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Germany Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## mullokintyre (7 November 2021)

noirua said:


> WHO warns Europe at epicentre of new COVID-19 surge​5 November 2021
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not sure what was the dominant vaccine in Germany, but according to the LA times, the efficacy of three vaccines (meaning the only ones available in the USA), have declined sharply over time. Like Germany, it looks like we will all be lining up for the booster dose within six months.



> As the Delta variant became the dominant strain of the coronavirus across the United States, all three COVID-19 vaccines available to Americans lost some of their protective power, with vaccine efficacy among a large group of veterans dropping between 35% and 85%, according to a new study.
> 
> Researchers who scoured the records of nearly 800,000 U.S. veterans found that in early March, just as the Delta variant was gaining a toehold across American communities, the three vaccines were roughly equal in their ability to prevent infections.
> 
> ...



Mick


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## macca (8 November 2021)

Just looking at the headlines about the report from NSW Chief Health Officer on the Delta outbreak

Current death rates are fully vaccinated 11% deaths, unvaccinated 0.07% deaths, perhaps they need to release more data.

They say that those who were vaccinated were frail and elderly, going to die anyway (implication) so don't worry about that.

But they do not give the same details of those who died unvaccinated, I distinctly recall that the daily news reports did include that info and at least half had the "underlying health  problems" mentioned and the vast majority were senior citizens

Yes, there were people in their 30's who died, which is terrible and I am not saying that Covid is a scam but I am saying that we are still being treated like mushrooms

I realise that the number of unvaccinated people who got Delta is much higher but at the start the majority of people were not vaccinated. I am unable to find the NSW chart of progress but the OZ one shows that in the time frame the Vacc rate jumped from 20% to 67% or an extra 12m people got vaxed.

As some of the states are still lagging I am sure that most of the huge surge was in NSW and Vic, so in the early days of the outbreak the majority of folk were unvaxed.

It was only after the outbreak that folks decided to get jabbed so the data is misleading at best.

We can also add the despicable act of allowing people to become seriously ill before getting any support from the so called Health Prevention people into the mix and I can understand why the nurses are more worried about the vaccine than Covid


----------



## sptrawler (9 November 2021)

W.A today hit 55% double vaccinated.


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## wayneL (9 November 2021)

Sweden for the win!









						Proof nation’s massive Covid risk worked
					

As most of the world ground to a halt as the deadly Covid-19 pandemic took hold, Sweden’s defiant stance left many stunned.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## rederob (10 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Sweden for the win!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sweden was far and away the worst of the Scandinavian countries in terms of deaths per million, with 3 times more dead than Denmark, 7 times more than Finland, and  nearly 9 times more than Norway:





Even India and Indonesia had lesser death rates.
China, with the hardest lockdowns of all, along with technological tracking and mass testing strategies, proved the value of firm containment measures.
Little wonder that Murdoch's media is treated more like an entertainment medium.


----------



## moXJO (10 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Sweden was far and away the worst of the Scandinavian countries in terms of deaths per million, with 3 times more dead than Denmark, 7 times more than Finland, and  nearly 9 times more than Norway:
> View attachment 132689
> 
> Even India and Indonesia had lesser death rates.
> ...



China figures are solid and honest.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 November 2021)

At last, some potential good news.
From Todays Oz


> A scientific breakthrough could lead to variant-proof Covid-19 vaccines that protect against an array of coronaviruses including those responsible for common colds, according to British research.
> The inoculation could give longlasting protection, including from future Covid-19 like infections that spread from animals to humans.
> 
> The study looked at UK National Health Service workers who were at a high risk of infection during the early part of the pandemic but had not fallen ill and developed no protective antibodies.
> ...




Mick


----------



## basilio (13 November 2021)

As Australia enjoys its COVID freedom the challenge of COVID getting away again can't be ignored.
Unfortunately there are a number of countries that have seen infections and severe illnesses/death skyrocket since opening their economies. They are now having to re introduce restrictions .  

The good news for Australia is that our level of vaccination seems to be much higher than these countries. The infections, particularly teh severe ones are concentrated in unvaccinated people.

Denmark, Norway, Germany. Czech Republic  are amongst these countries.









						Countries hailed as COVID-19 success stories are now reimposing restrictions
					

A growing number of countries that had lifted COVID-19 restrictions are now reimposing them as cases surge.




					www.sbs.com.au


----------



## DB008 (14 November 2021)

I have a contrarian viewpoint on this whole Covid-19 situation now - totally unorthodox. Get your jabs, then go and get Delta on purpose and be done with it. If given that option, l'd do it right now. But we are not allowed to talk about natural immunity. It's banned. Instead of vaccinated or unvaccinated, it should be, do you have immunity or not?


​​Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus​breakthrough infections​


> Conclusions - This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.​




https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1​
It's also very, very, very interesting how the media was going bananas on Florida and De Santis (and were blaming him) only a few months ago, now Florida has one of the lowest Covid per capita cases in the USA, but now the media is silent. LOL. Florida has taken a 'feel sick, go and get treatment ASAP, which includes the use of monoclonal antibodies' (which Joe Rogan was mocked for, but Fauchi endorsed)


What happened to Sweden?
What about Norway?
What about Holland?

Norway and Holland opened up, now they are going back into lockdown/reinstating social distancing measure.

Maybe Nils Anders Tegnell was right all along...???








.


----------



## mullokintyre (14 November 2021)

C'mon DB, ya can't let statistics get in the way of the meme.
Its tha vibe ya know.
Mick


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## wayneL (14 November 2021)

Central banks coup d'etat?


----------



## mullokintyre (15 November 2021)

Brett  Sutton has unloaded on the Federal Government  for its road map out of Covid.
From The Australian


> Victoria’s chief health officer has criticised the federal road map for living with Covid, saying it contains “no explicit recovery phase” and fails to address the fallout of the pandemic of economic disadvantage, ongoing mental health impacts, health system backlog and the burden of long Covid.
> 
> “The continuing mental health effects of disruptions to life during 2020 and 2021 are already being seen in the health system, and, as with natural disasters, they will need to be managed for years, not weeks.”
> The article names deferred care including elective surgery cancellations and postponed screening procedures as one of the major burdens on the health system in the recovery phase, together with dealing with the likely long-term effects of the disease on cardiac and respiratory function in sufferers.



And why is there deferred care, elective surgery cancellations  and postponed screening?
Because Sutton, in his capacity as CHO,  closed it all down.
it was his health advice that  allowed Genghis Dan to enforce lockdowns,  bring on curfews, not once but six times.
It was his advice that allowed Dan to close down the construction industry and all hell broke loose.
So a problem that is largely of his making, is now the a problem of the feds, and their road map is  all wrong.
The states shut up shop then demand that the feds pay the cost via job keeper, etc.
Wouldn't mind betting that Sutton will have a career in politics coming up soon.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (16 November 2021)

Thank God. This will save me having to check their Vax status before they come on my property to save my house, sheds and livestock.

FFS


----------



## bellenuit (17 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Thank God. This will save me having to check their Vax status before they come on my property to save my house, sheds and livestock.
> 
> FFS




Just thinking of yourself? No concern for the safety of the volunteers?

If they have to attend a person's property, then they are less likely, as we know, to transmit COVID than if they were not vaccinated. That's only half the story. But what about these brave volunteer heroes themselves. They will attend properties and rescue anyone whether that person is vaccinated or not, putting themselves at additional risk. We know many unvaccinated are a selfish lot more concerned about their so called rights than the safety  of others. Do you think such self-centred "I'm all right Jacks" will refrain from calling fire services because they may expose these volunteers to unnecessary risks? I doubt it very much. At least the volunteers being vaccinated gives them more protection from these types of people.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 November 2021)

When ya house is burning down, the last thing ya gunna worry about is whether the firefighters are vaxed or not.
Just sayin.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Just thinking of yourself? No concern for the safety of the volunteers?
> 
> If they have to attend a person's property, then they are less likely, as we know, to transmit COVID than if they were not vaccinated. That's only half the story. But what about these brave volunteer heroes themselves. They will attend properties and rescue anyone whether that person is vaccinated or not, putting themselves at additional risk. We know many unvaccinated are a selfish lot more concerned about their so called rights than the safety  of others. Do you think such self-centred "I'm all right Jacks" will refrain from calling fire services because they may expose these volunteers to unnecessary risks? I doubt it very much. At least the volunteers being vaccinated gives them more protection from these types of people.



Seriously?
This is where we are at?


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> We know many unvaccinated are a selfish lot more concerned about their so called rights than the safety  of others. Do you think such self-centred "I'm all right Jacks" will refrain from calling fire services because they may expose these volunteers to unnecessary risks? I doubt it very much. At least the volunteers being vaccinated gives them more protection from these types of people.



Do you have any idea where this type of  thinking leads?


----------



## bellenuit (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Do you have any idea where this type of thinking leads?




Yes, to caring more about others than your own selfish needs and  demands.


----------



## wayneL (17 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, to caring more about others than your own selfish needs and  demands.




I'm still wondering how a medical choice has transmogrified into selfishness?

Given that the vaccine does not stop infection or transmission at all, but merely reduces symptoms in most, the vaccinated or more of a danger to unvaccinated and the other way around.

What you were doing by drinking the kool-aid in this regard is indulging in otherising people.

Hmmm I seem to recall history being replete with examples where this did not end very well, including one very famous example roughly, oh, about 85 years ago.

To belabour the point once again, this is not ebola and is very little threat to ordinary healthy people.


----------



## bellenuit (17 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> When ya house is burning down, the last thing ya gunna worry about is whether the firefighters are vaxed or not.
> Just sayin.
> Mick




Thank you Mull. Precisely. That is why getting vaccinated now when not in a life threatening situation is best for all concerned, but particularly for those volunteers who will come to your rescue regardless.


----------



## bellenuit (17 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Given that the vaccine does not stop infection or transmission at all, but merely reduces symptoms in most, the vaccinated or more of a danger to unvaccinated and the other way around.




Google is your friend. Get educated. The understanding has moved on in the last year.









						newsGP - Mounting evidence suggests COVID vaccines do reduce transmission
					

Since vaccines began rolling out across the world, many scientists have been hesitant to say they can reduce transmission of the virus.




					www1.racgp.org.au
				











						Covid: One dose of vaccine halves transmission - study
					

People who get coronavirus after their first jab are up to 49% less likely to pass it on, research suggests.



					www.bbc.com
				











						Covid-19: Moderna and Pfizer vaccines prevent infections as well as symptoms, CDC study finds
					

Vaccination with the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine reduces infections by 90%, while a single dose confers 80% protection, shows a study led by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) that followed essential workers through the worst months of the pandemic.1  The study is one of a...




					www.bmj.com


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Google is your friend. Get educated. The understanding has moved on in the last year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These are all months old articles.
It's misleading as the vaccines protection wane over 9 months.


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, to caring more about others than your own selfish needs and  demands.



So let's ostracise all those nationalities that pose a higher risk of (insert metric here).
For the greater good.

Hey let's sterilise those with genetic defects for the greater good.

You know what let's push that group of people into gas ovens because yep greater good.

Covid represents a very small chance of dying or serious complications. Less so if you are vaccinated. You are on a collision course of basically saying "let them burn".
Pretty sure if they pay tax they have rights. Actually they have rights full stop.

Advocating for a form of vax apartheid isn't going to help anybody.
It just makes more people stand against your position and creates division.


----------



## sptrawler (17 November 2021)

It looks like we should get some good feedback on the experimental covid antiviral pill, Pfizer is allowing generic drug manufacturers to produce it, to enable countries struggling to get the vaccine access to the pill.  




__





						No Cookies | Daily Telegraph
					

No Cookies




					www.dailytelegraph.com.au
				




https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11...id-pill-trial-89-per-cent-effective/100600146


----------



## wayneL (17 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Google is your friend. Get educated. The understanding has moved on in the last year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm on the road working at the moment so I haven't got time to dig up articles but as Mo has pointed out the understanding has moved along even further. 

Highly vaccinated areas have much high infection rates then what is indicated by some of the official articles around.

In fact it is generally well recognised now that recovery from infection offers a much greater protection than the vaccines. Therefore it does not make sense for anyone who has recovered from covid-19 to receive a vaccination and risk a vaccine injury.

I actually suspect that Mrs and I may have had the damn thing already very early in the piece (and I may go along one day and see if we have any antibodies to find out one way or the other).

The overarching point here is that you seem to have a deeply ideological approach to this... Comply or suffer penalties, whether they be actually financial by ostracisation.

My approach is not ideological at all. I don't care whether you are vaccinated or not and if you feel you should be, then by all means go ahead.

In fact the current law of the land is that vaccinations should be by informed consent, and not by force or coercion. I've laid out my position further up in this thread and my opinion stands despite the mental gymnastics of the likes of Rederob.

Furthermore as indicated, I reserve the right to change my opinion. If at some point I believe the risk reward adds up, with one of the current or any future vaccinations then I was certainly go ahead.

Boofheads calling me selfish or ignorant or any thing else, is not going to change my approach of analysing the available data to the best of my ability.

As a matter of fact I have many clients in the medical and scientific fraternity and in private conversations, there is not even a consensus there. Some jumped on board immediately with the vaccinations, others are either hesitant or vehemently against these particular injections.

I just want to make the best decision for myself and my family, bro... And yes that does fall within the context of the broader society as well.

This is why I have been happy to have every other goddamned injection known to man, as I have repeatedly said.

You should reflect deeply upon that, both in terms of actual data, and as it relates to the future of our Liberal democracy.


----------



## IFocus (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> So let's ostracise all those nationalities that pose a higher risk of (insert metric here).
> For the greater good.
> 
> Hey let's sterilise those with genetic defects for the greater good.
> ...





The unvaccinated hospitalised COVID cases run at around 10% of those that test positive and 20% of them end up in ICU.

Vaccinations see that change dramatically look at NSW for example however If people make the choice to be anti vax so be it.

But.

The hospital and staff are not only always at risk but then have to control the infection spread within the hospital.

What do you do about those that have underlying conditions or treatments (or treatments deferred due to COVID patients) that limit vax effectiveness?


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> The unvaccinated hospitalised COVID cases run at around 10% of those that test positive and 20% of them end up in ICU.
> 
> Vaccinations see that change dramatically look at NSW for example however If people make the choice to be anti vax so be it.
> 
> ...



A person vaxxed that had breakthrough infection is in fact infectious.
Hospital staff is at risk from a range of viruses already.


Unless you want foreheads timestamped with vaccination dates, as the vax only weakens over time at varying rates. We will revisit this problem anyway. 

You simply won't vax everyone. My personal opinion doesn't matter. With the new treatments coming online, most can simply take a pill to avoid dying. 

I don't believe in this ostracising to the point of isolation. When has that ever ended up going well? 
Most people (and I've converted a few now to getting vaxxed) simply need discussion. Not these ridiculous "Satan pedo lizard people" conspiracies and accusations. 

And lets be realistic, we are roughly at 90% first dose vaccinated. About 84ish% fully vaccinated. 

My concern is people thinking that  totalitarianism is what's going to fix the problem.


----------



## bellenuit (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> It's misleading as the vaccines protection wane over 9 months.




It's not misleading. Vaccines are proven to reduce transmission, which disproves Wayne's assertion. When the effectiveness of the vaccine wanes, then of course its ability to reduce transmission wanes. Hardly rocket science. That's why boosters are now being recommended.

There seems to be an assumption among some that if vaccines do not provide 100% protection and be effective for ever, they are not of any use. Vaccines are just one weapon among many in the fight against covid. It is fairly effective in preventing transmission (as per articles) and when its effectiveness wanes, get a booster.


----------



## bellenuit (17 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> In fact it is generally well recognised now that recovery from infection offers a much greater protection than the vaccines. Therefore it does not make sense for anyone who has recovered from covid-19 to receive a vaccination and risk a vaccine injury.




It is also recognised that a those who have recovered from COVID would be better protected if they are subsequently vaccinated than relying on natural immunity alone.

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021​_Summary_​_What is already known about this topic?

Reinfection with human coronaviruses, including SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, has been documented. Currently, limited evidence concerning the protection afforded by vaccination against reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 is available.

What is added by this report?

Among Kentucky residents infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, vaccination status of those reinfected during May–June 2021 was compared with that of residents who were not reinfected. In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.

What are the implications for public health practice?

To reduce their likelihood for future infection, all eligible persons should be offered COVID-19 vaccine, even those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection._

​








						Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19...
					

This report describes COVID-19 reinfection among vaccinated and unvaccinated persons in Kentucky.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## IFocus (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> You simply won't vax everyone. My personal opinion doesn't matter. With the new treatments coming online, most can simply take a pill to avoid dying.
> 
> And lets be realistic, we are roughly at 90% first dose vaccinated. About 84ish% fully vaccinated.
> 
> My concern is people thinking that  totalitarianism is what's going to fix the problem.




New treatments are not here yet the problem is now and real that's being realistic, in WA indigenous vaccinations are way behind  no where near 90% WA as a whole is also no where near 90% (we gave you lot our vaccines).

There are restrictions and mandates to try an cover the gaps until new treatments arrive no government will get elected running  restrictions and mandates if they are not required (well maybe McGowan 🤣🤣)


----------



## bellenuit (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> So let's ostracise all those nationalities that pose a higher risk of (insert metric here).
> For the greater good.
> 
> Hey let's sterilise those with genetic defects for the greater good.
> ...




You are being silly.

Lots of our laws are designed for the greater good. Safety belts, speed limits, smoking in cars with young children present, polluting our rivers etc., And we already have vaccine requirements in relation to previous diseases that have been eradicated or mostly eradicated. Your arguments on that point are bordering on paranoia.


----------



## cynic (17 November 2021)

Whilst this may turn out to be, little more than, the evangelising of the already converted, here's some insight from JP:


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> New treatments are not here yet the problem is now and real that's being realistic, in WA indigenous vaccinations are way behind  no where near 90% WA as a whole is also no where near 90% (we gave you lot our vaccines).
> 
> There are restrictions and mandates to try an cover the gaps until new treatments arrive no government will get elected running  restrictions and mandates if they are not required (well maybe McGowan 🤣🤣)



No one has said ever "let's go to WA".
You guys are safe.

Indifference in WA  is what is driving low vaccination, not qanon.


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> You are being silly.
> 
> Lots of our laws are designed for the greater good. Safety belts, speed limits, smoking in cars with young children present, polluting our rivers etc., And we already have vaccine requirements in relation to previous diseases that have been eradicated or mostly eradicated. Your arguments on that point are bordering on paranoia.



I'm not calling to let people's homes burn down.
Vaccines without long-term studies is given a pass for paranoia. I'm not putting my faith in loony anti-antivaxxers if that's the sentiment.
And lots of terrible things were done in "The greater good". 

Your train of thinking was the initial concern.



bellenuit said:


> It's not misleading. Vaccines are proven to reduce transmission, which disproves Wayne's assertion. When the effectiveness of the vaccine wanes, then of course its ability to reduce transmission wanes. Hardly rocket science. That's why boosters are now being recommended.
> 
> There seems to be an assumption among some that if vaccines do not provide 100% protection and be effective for ever, they are not of any use. Vaccines are just one weapon among many in the fight against covid. It is fairly effective in preventing transmission (as per articles) and when its effectiveness wanes, get a booster.



The articles were based on old data and you failed to mention the length of time these actually last. Wayne was correct.

You said: "Google is your friend. Get educated. The understanding has moved on in the last year". 

Yeah, well it's moved on from a few months ago. Don't throw up articles that don't prove a point.


----------



## wayneL (17 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> When ya house is burning down, the last thing ya gunna worry about is whether the firefighters are vaxed or not.
> Just sayin.
> Mick



I actually live very close to the East Swan Volunteer Bushfire Brigade Station.

This is the scenario these people are supporting, Mick 

This is how we know that our society has collectively lost it's freaking mind over a flu. 

Hypothetically if I was a vollie, I could be the very first person to respond, get the tenders out and and get to a fire.

Let's suppose my neighbour notices some nutter down in the Brigadoon bushland setting fires. She calls 000 to report it but also calls me because she knows that I am a vollie.

My response - sorry luv, I'm not allowed help you because I'm unvaccinated.

She goes, who cares? The bush is about to burn down and my house  might be threatened.

Sorry darling, you're on your own. I could get arrested for saving your house.


----------



## sptrawler (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> No one has said ever "let's go to WA".
> You guys are safe.
> 
> Indifference in WA  is what is driving low vaccination, not qanon.



That is true, my daughter came home from work today and said she has to produce proof of vaccination, so I recommended she talk to our doctor as to which one.
She is 41, but I'm not convinced on which one would be better at this stage, so I'm recommending nothing see the Dr.


----------



## rederob (17 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Highly vaccinated areas have much high infection rates then what is indicated by some of the official articles around.



No data, and ignores the fact that unless infection is endemic to a region then the infection rate remains zero.  Simply put, a nonsense statement of itself.


wayneL said:


> In fact it is generally well recognised now that recovery from infection offers a much greater protection than the vaccines. Therefore it does not make sense for anyone who has recovered from covid-19 to receive a vaccination and risk a vaccine injury.



This is false.
It's also the case that further vaccinations act as a "booster" to those previously infected, as antibody response declines over time.


wayneL said:


> The overarching point here is that you seem to have a deeply ideological approach to this... Comply or suffer penalties, whether they be actually financial by ostracisation.



Rates of infection, hospitalisation and death are reduced by vaccination, so your claim that this is *ideological *is unsound.  It makes sense for society and businesses to take reasonable steps to mitigate covid.  If you want others to take responsibility but not yourself, then why should you expect equal treatment?


wayneL said:


> My approach is not ideological at all. I don't care whether you are vaccinated or not and if you feel you should be, then by all means go ahead.



You apparently do as you have railed against your so-described "ostracism" of those unvaccinated.  If you were true to your word of not caring then you would not post as you have.


wayneL said:


> In fact the current law of the land is that vaccinations should be by informed consent, and not by force or coercion. I've laid out my position further up in this thread and my opinion stands despite the mental gymnastics of the likes of Rederob.



It's called logic which you seldom apply to your points.  So when you say "vaccinations should be by informed consent, and not by force or coercion," you are correct.  Except that you have not been able to separate this from the rights of businesses and other organisations to provide workplaces that are as safe as possible for their employees *and* those they interact with.


wayneL said:


> Furthermore as indicated, I reserve the right to change my opinion. If at some point I believe the risk reward adds up, with one of the current or any future vaccinations then I was certainly go ahead.



In other words the data which is unequivocal means nothing because your personal opinion is yours to change without reason.


wayneL said:


> Boofheads calling me selfish or ignorant or any thing else, is not going to change my approach of analysing the available data to the best of my ability.



Given unequivocal data the term "ignorant" becomes an objective statement.


wayneL said:


> I just want to make the best decision for myself and my family, bro... And yes that does fall within the context of the broader society as well.



"Society" has determined that vaccinations are the best decision.  How is your stance not "selfish" in that context?


wayneL said:


> You should reflect deeply upon that, both in terms of actual data, and as it relates to the future of our Liberal democracy.



The fact *you* have had *other *injections is not relevant to the impact covid has on society.  This point is not mental gymnastics, rocket surgery, or tricky.


----------



## bellenuit (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> The articles were based on old data and you failed to mention the length of time these actually last. Wayne was correct.




What difference does it make how long the transmission protection lasts. You can get a booster that renews its effectiveness. Wayne, who is rarely correct on anything, claimed they vaccines do not prevent transmission. Clearly wrong. And then you come up with the silly nonsense, that he is correct because the vaccine is not effective forever. That argument is just inane. Many of not most drugs only provide temporary protection and need to be retaken again and again. 

And if you want newer data, here is the result of a study that is just 6 weeks old. But I doubt that matters to you.









						Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds
					

British scientists examined how the Pfizer-BioNTech and the AstraZeneca vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## moXJO (17 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> What difference does it make how long the transmission protection lasts. You can get a booster that renews its effectiveness. Wayne, who is rarely correct on anything, claimed they vaccines do not prevent transmission. Clearly wrong. And then you come up with the silly nonsense, that he is correct because the vaccine is not effective forever. That argument is just inane. Many of not most drugs only provide temporary protection and need to be retaken again and again.
> 
> And if you want newer data, here is the result of a study that is just 6 weeks old. But I doubt that matters to you.
> 
> ...



Oh so the vaccines do work fine. So long as vaccinated people keep getting vaccinated it should be fine if the anti-vaxxers don't want to because the vaccines do in fact work. Well there you go.

We still don't know long term effects. A lot of the data is learn as you go. Hence the need now for booster shots. It was just the initial doses at the beginning. That has changed in a matter of months. People can assess the science as they please.


----------



## IFocus (17 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> No one has said ever "let's go to WA".
> You guys are safe.
> 
> Indifference in WA  is what is driving low vaccination, not qanon.





We have nutters making death threats at McGowan and his staff, today on the Old / New Mandurah bridge (SP will know where I mean) there was this f#@%&^^% holding a sign to join him at a freedom rally Parliament House.

Really had to fight the urge of doing everyone a favour by changing to 4x4 and running the f#@%&^^% over.


----------



## IFocus (18 November 2021)




----------



## moXJO (18 November 2021)

IFocus said:


> We have nutters making death threats at McGowan and his staff, today on the Old / New Mandurah bridge (SP will know where I mean) there was this f#@%&^^% holding a sign to join him at a freedom rally Parliament House.
> 
> Really had to fight the urge of doing everyone a favour by changing to 4x4 and running the f#@%&^^% over.



Is there some measures he has put in that copped backlash. I heard his home address and phone was released.

Like I said: " grind people down and they will fight back twice as hard". Probably not a good idea backing people into the wall and singling them out.

And if it were such a huge right leaning issue why is nsw seemingly fine?
They government made enough noises like they gave a sht. In reality they were just as bad.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 November 2021)

According to Our world Data , Gibraltar is the most vaxed   place on earth. 
It has been at a level higher than 99% since about mid June this year.
And yet despite this, according to Govt of Gibraltar


> The steady increase in active cases of COVID-19 that Gibraltar experienced throughout October has continued into November, and has become even more exponential in the last few days. This means that it is essential that the public conduct themselves in a cautious and sensible manner bearing in mind that we are still in a global pandemic and that people are losing their lives every day all over the world.



Note that word exponential.
It seems that as soon as winter hits,  cases soar, even if 100% of  people are fully vaxed.
Mick


----------



## rederob (18 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> According to Our world Data , Gibraltar is the most vaxed   place on earth.
> It has been at a level higher than 99% since about mid June this year.
> And yet despite this, according to Govt of Gibraltar
> 
> ...



Epidemiologists are suggesting the new metric be hospitalisations for vaccinated nations, as the old ratio of cases to deaths has fallen by the wayside, especially as treatment protocols have also improved.
Here's Gibralta's situation, proving the value of vaccinations:






Cases are not translating to deaths as they did in the past.

edit:
"There are 359 active cases of COVID-19 in Gibraltar today, 57 new cases today (72 yesterday), 5 hospitalisations (1 of which is in the CCU), and a total of 440 persons in isolation. This is in part a reflection of the high rate of testing of Gibraltar residents which allows us to catch many more positive cases than would happen elsewhere. However, it is also part of a trend which can be witnessed all over Europe where the number of positive cases are on an upward spiral."


----------



## wayneL (18 November 2021)

@bellenuit 

Apart from unthinkingly parroting the bureaucratic narrative, I'm still wondering how a personal medical choice with potentially lifelong ramifications, is selfish?


----------



## sptrawler (19 November 2021)

You guys do realise Gibraltar is really small, the wife and I walked from one end to the other, including climbing over the top, in 5 hours?
It is only 6.8klm/sq and only has 33,000 residents.


----------



## bellenuit (19 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Apart from unthinkingly parroting the bureaucratic narrative, I'm still wondering how a personal medical choice with potentially lifelong ramifications, is selfish?




Firstly, it is not unthinkingly parroting the bureaucratic narrative. The narrative has achieved the desired results when followed, so that suggests the narrative is correct. It is not an exact science and knowledge is still evolving, but largely serious illness has been contained where vaccinations are combined with the appropriate social measures. It is where deviations from the narrative have taken place that things have got out of hand. That is why many countries are experiences serious illnesses predominantly among the unvaccinated and an increase in infection when the social measure are eased too soon. Your narrative, devoid of scientific backing, has produced results that do not support your narrative. According to your narrative, vaccines do not prevent infection or prevent transmission.  I have shown in my recent posts that this is false, as studies have proven the opposite to be true. I know you do not accept any evidence that doesn't support your narrative, but I can do little about that if you won't educate yourself.

Secondly, a medical choice has to be seen in the context of society as a whole and not just your personal wellbeing. If one choses not to be vaccinated and then hibernates in the mountains for months on end, then it has no consequence. But if one choses not to be vaccinated and takes no precautions regarding mask wearing and social distancing, then that can be seen as a selfish choice if one insists on commingling with others, particularly if there are vulnerable people among them who, for whatever reason, cannot get vaccinated themselves or as part of their job have to attend to you in circumstances where it is not possible to observe the social precautions.  

You won't see that as selfish (which you obviously don't) as you hold the false belief that vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission. But we have clinical results proving you wrong. So while you may regard someone who choses to  remain unvaccinated and not observe the social precautions which continuing to commingle with the rest of society as not being selfish, those who understand the science would disagree.


----------



## mullokintyre (19 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You guys do realise Gibraltar is really small, the wife and I walked from one end to the other, including climbing over the top, in 5 hours?
> It is only 6.8klm/sq and only has 33,000 residents.



Maybe thy are all inbred.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (19 November 2021)

And in another potentially good news rsult, Australian researhcers may have found a way to make mRna vaccines more effective with fewer unpleasant side effects.
From Todays OZ


> Scientists have discovered a way to make mRNA Covid-19 vaccines potentially more effective and limit side effects in a discovery that could transform the formulation of Pfizer and Moderna jabs.
> 
> Researchers at the Hudson Institute of Medical Research in Melbourne identified how to “turn off” a cell immune sensor known as TLR7 that recognises foreign RNA but is associated with inflammation that causes side effects, including fatigue, severe headache, chills and injection-site pain.
> 
> ...



One hopes that further research does not bring up any gotchas.
Mick


----------



## Belli (19 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> One hopes that further research does not bring up any gotchas.




An odd statement there.

Research is never static so obviously there will be new information and assessments.


----------



## Belli (19 November 2021)

More distribution of utter crap from this moron of a politician









						CoronaCheck: Are Adelaide's hospitals full of vaccinated patients?
					

Australians received another round of text messages from United Australia Party MP Craig Kelly this week, linking to a video making dubious assertions about COVID-19 vaccines.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (19 November 2021)

Belli said:


> An odd statement there.
> 
> Research is never static so obviously there will be new information and assessments.



I was thinking about the early 2020 promising initial research in Queensland onCovid vaccines that got halted when it turned out the vaccine gave false positive reaction to HIV.
Killed it stone dead.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (19 November 2021)

Belli said:


> More distribution of utter crap from this moron of a politician
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, if you read the  ABC article, what Kelly has initially claimed is true.
Namely that the hospitals are full of vaccinated people.
The problem is the next  conclusion drawn from the data, namely that the bvaccination caused the hospitalisation, rather than the effects of the virus.
But as we have seen so often, so few people understand the difference between correlation and causation.
mick


----------



## Belli (19 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, if you read the  ABC article, what Kelly has initially claimed is true.
> Namely that the hospitals are full of vaccinated people.
> The problem is the next  conclusion drawn from the data, namely that the bvaccination caused the hospitalisation, rather than the effects of the virus.
> But as we have seen so often, so few people understand the difference between correlation and causation.
> mick




Your claim is utter tosh.

The majority are unvaccinated and that has been the situation from the get go.  Breakthrough infections will account for a number of the vaccinated patients but that was expected plus they may have other conditions such as cancer, diabities which is exacerbated by being infected with Covid.

NSW alone


----------



## Belli (19 November 2021)

And to add









						newsGP - Unvaccinated patients dominate COVID deaths and ICU
					

Most people who have died from COVID-19 in NSW had not received a vaccine, while no one under 70 has died having received two doses.




					www1.racgp.org.au
				




"Less than 2% of people admitted to intensive care in New South Wales in the first 11 weeks of the recent outbreak were fully vaccinated, the latest NSW Health weekly surveillance report shows.

The document, which gives a breakdown of the vaccination status of all those who enter the hospital system with COVID-19, also shows that none of the 15 fully vaccinated patients who died of the disease were under 70."

There is a link to the full report in the article which is here.



			https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/covid-surveillance-report-20210917.pdf


----------



## cynic (19 November 2021)

It might be worth pondering the definition of "unvaccinated" when viewing published statistics.

To my understanding, a person is still considered to be unvaccinated, until a full 14 days have elapsed, since receipt of their second jab.

So, if vaccine injury were to cause an influx of hospital patients, those patients would likely be categorised as "unvaccinated" (i.e. single dose, or too soon after second dose to be deemed vaccinated).


----------



## mullokintyre (19 November 2021)

Belli said:


> Your claim is utter tosh.
> 
> The majority are unvaccinated and that has been the situation from the get go.  Breakthrough infections will account for a number of the vaccinated patients but that was expected plus they may have other conditions such as cancer, diabities which is exacerbated by being infected with Covid.
> 
> ...



Ok,  here is the quote from the ABC article posted


> With more than 90 per cent of over 16s having now received at least one jab, it's no surprise that vaccinated people are more likely to be represented in hospital data, a point Fact Check has previously explained.



Thats is what I quoted, and you can argue whether its Tosh , but  tell it to the ABC.Go back and read the article if you don't believe me.
I was  highlighting the differences between causation and correlation, which seemed to have not been understood by  Kelly et al.
Mick


----------



## Belli (19 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Ok,  here is the quote from the ABC article posted
> 
> Thats is what I quoted, and you can argue whether its Tosh , but  tell it to the ABC.Go back and read the article if you don't believe me.
> I was  highlighting the differences between causation and correlation, which seemed to have not been understood by  Kelly et al.
> Mick




If 100% of the entire population is vaccinated then 100% of patients admitted to hospital will be vaccinated.

But that wasn't the aim of the trash Kelly posted.


----------



## mullokintyre (19 November 2021)

Belli said:


> If 100% of the entire population is vaccinated then 100% of patients admitted to hospital will be vaccinated.
> 
> But that wasn't the aim of the trash Kelly posted.



Correct.
I was commenting on the ABC report of Kellys post.
Mick


----------



## cynic (19 November 2021)

Belli said:


> If 100% of the entire population is vaccinated then 100% of patients admitted to hospital will be vaccinated.
> 
> But that wasn't the aim of the trash Kelly posted.



And what a perfect smoke screen, such high vaccination rates, have created!

Just as their makers intended!!


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 November 2021)

Whenever I read of anything uttered by Craig Kelly two words come immediately to my mind based on his past and present views, utterances and allegiances..

*IDIOT

RUBBISH*

That is all that I have to contribute to the debate above. 

gg


----------



## Bill M (23 November 2021)

This is the best speech I have ever heard on vaccination and I agree with it 100%.


----------



## wayneL (23 November 2021)

Well I think the most illuminating thing through all this is that we've got a fair idea of what sort of people are going to be wearing Jack boots in a couple of years time


----------



## moXJO (24 November 2021)

I believe here phone number was posted. The current trend of death threats to politicians needs to stop. All that will happen is that they will double down on authoritarian measures.

While I wouldn't shed a tear for any of them
Do it at the ballot box. Violence, or feeding your rage isn't going to help any cause.

Apparently shared by that dumbass Malcolm Roberts. I've argued with that twat before. Truly a mental pygmy.


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> I believe here phone number was posted. The current trend of death threats to politicians needs to stop. All that will happen is that they will double down on authoritarian measures.
> 
> While I wouldn't shed a tear for any of them
> Do it at the ballot box. Violence, or feeding your rage isn't going to help any cause.



Agree 100%

Every person standing for liberty should resolutely disavow violence and death threats... absolutely.

Unless by self defence or by defending against a coup d'etat. IOW if our liberal democracy is threatened.


----------



## qldfrog (24 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Seriously?
> This is where we are at?



Well it seems we are aren't we?


----------



## qldfrog (24 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Google is your friend. Get educated. The understanding has moved on in the last year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Google is getting better at it...


----------



## qldfrog (24 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> You are being silly.
> 
> Lots of our laws are designed for the greater good. Safety belts, speed limits, smoking in cars with young children present, polluting our rivers etc., And we already have vaccine requirements in relation to previous diseases that have been eradicated or mostly eradicated. Your arguments on that point are bordering on paranoia.



So mandatory jab or jail.actually no,send the swat team and force them?Them...Those?maybe kill them directly. They may not wash their hands and still hug
Austria and Germany are on the way to do it.old devils never die
You really need to open your gate wear your Hazmat suit and head to the library to get any historical book on the rise of the 3rd reich.if too risky,you can maybe get some electronic versions?
There is no excuse to ignorance especially from people who were up in arms shouting "fascist" at Trump and profess to have some litteracy.
This has now long been past a medical issue . at least a year.wake up


----------



## mullokintyre (24 November 2021)

Todays take on it
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (24 November 2021)

Statistics can tell so many stories.
From  Zero Hedge





So before the year is ou, there have already been more deaths in the US this year than for the whole of last year.
Despite the Vaccinations, the masks , the lockdowns, the millions of people with natural immunity after having already caught Covid.
A little puzzling.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (24 November 2021)

It would seem that most countries have had more deaths in 2021 than 2020.
World wide, there were 1.88 million deaths in 2020, and so far there have been  3.29 million deaths.
Australia had 909 deaths from covid last year, but 1064 so far this year.
No country has managed to have fewer deaths, but at least China and Vanuatu came close.
The complete tables can be found Here
Mick


----------



## wayneL (24 November 2021)

The indigenous speak.


----------



## bellenuit (24 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Statistics can tell so many stories.
> From  Zero Hedge
> 
> View attachment 133354
> ...




Shift the 2020 line three months to the left and the pattern is similar. There were no death recordings for the first 3 months (bar the last week of it according to the graph), so comparing like with like needs this shift. Secondly, COVID was just starting to spread from March onwards in 2020, so even though the death rate for 2021 is comparable with 2020 (shifted by 3 months), the death rate was from a much lower infected base in 2020. There was also the newer more virulent Delta variant that became prevalent early this year. And one must consider the majority of deaths are now coming predominantly from the smaller and decreasing unvaccinated base.


----------



## mullokintyre (25 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Shift the 2020 line three months to the left and the pattern is similar. There were no death recordings for the first 3 months (bar the last week of it according to the graph), so comparing like with like needs this shift. Secondly, COVID was just starting to spread from March onwards in 2020, so even though the death rate for 2021 is comparable with 2020 (shifted by 3 months), the death rate was from a much lower infected base in 2020. There was also the newer more virulent Delta variant that became prevalent early this year. And one must consider the majority of deaths are now coming predominantly from the smaller and decreasing unvaccinated base.



I think you missed the point.
With all the vaccinations throughout the world, a better treatment regime, and with two months of the year to go, the deaths are significantly higher. And with a much higher proportion of the worlds population living in the Northerm Hemisphere which is about to go into the coldest part of the year when the virus seems more active, there may well be a big spike in these last two months.
If the provisions that have been taken, including vaccinations, deaths should be trailing off, or at worst stabilising.. 
They obviously are not, they are increasing.
Whether the deaths come from vaccinated or unvaccinated , they are still deaths.
Mick


----------



## DB008 (25 November 2021)

ABC with their narrative. What a joke. Read the headline

*'I bawled my eyes out': When 11 friends were diagnosed with COVID, they banded together to overcome the stigma*

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11...ing-dinner-party-superspreader-risk/100624140​
What stigma? We are all going to catch Covid-19 at some point. 

I remember last year there was a similar article about a lady who was testing the Pfizer vaccine and they said similar things. What a joke the media has become.


----------



## basilio (25 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> If the provisions that have been taken, including vaccinations, deaths should be trailing off, or at worst stabilising..
> They obviously are not, they are increasing.




In fact of course the overwhelming reason for the sharp rise in deaths is failure of widespread vaccination in European countries, the US and Russia. This is also coupled with the more infectious Delta version of COVID that is spreading the disease rapidly through the unvaccinated community and breakouts amongst some vaccinated people. The deaths are overwhelmingly amongst the unvaxxed people becasue teh vaccine reduces the effects of the disease

This is why we are seeing many European  counties looking at vaccine mandates  and restrictions on unvaccinated people mingling in the community.

Excellent summary of situation in Europe









						COVID in Europe: Netherlands to reopen shops and hairdressers
					

Here's a round-up of the COVID situation across Europe.




					www.euronews.com


----------



## basilio (25 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Todays take on it
> Mick
> View attachment 133320



Yeah Mullo

*Exactly* the sort of xhit passed around by anti vaxxers to justify their "heroic" stand against taking a simple measure that will substantially reduce the dangers of COVID. It might be dark humour except for the fact that thousands of people are sickening and dying because they have swallowed these lies.


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2021)

DB008 said:


> ABC with their narrative. What a joke. Read the headline
> 
> *'I bawled my eyes out': When 11 friends were diagnosed with COVID, they banded together to overcome the stigma*
> 
> ...



Project Fear


----------



## basilio (25 November 2021)

The roots of Vaccine hesitancy in Greece









						How a fake jabs probe highlights Greece's deep vaccine scepticism
					

“This is a nation and a culture where doubt is sewn into everything, including the questioning of authority and science, in order to maintain the beliefs they already have.” #UncoveringEurope




					www.euronews.com


----------



## mullokintyre (25 November 2021)

basilio said:


> In fact of course the overwhelming reason for the sharp rise in deaths is failure of widespread vaccination in European countries, the US and Russia.



Well, last year there were even fewer people vaccinated in every country, so that argument does not hold water.
According to World data 53% of the entire population has received at least one dose.
France, UK, USA, Germany have all had both an increase in cases and deaths despite having over 65% or more of the population having at least one dose.
The Netherlands has over 70% of its population fully vaccinated, yet in the past month has seen cases skyrocket to a level  100% higher than at any time in the pandemic ( see chart here  ).


> This is also coupled with the more infectious Delta version of COVID that is spreading the disease rapidly through the unvaccinated community and breakouts amongst some vaccinated people. The deaths are overwhelmingly amongst the unvaxxed people becasue teh vaccine reduces the effects of the disease



I will grant that the Delta version has proven more The deaths were almost exclusively among unvaccinated people last year because the vaccines  didn't start being widely used until this year.
The bottom line is , despite a big increase in vaccinations this year over last year, there is a much higher number of deaths.
I would venture to say that more than half of the people vaccinated would have received their second dose within the last 4 months, so if the  models are correct, they should have a significant level of protection..
Until we can see data on how long it  is since each case was either single, double or boost dosed, we really have little idea as to the effectiveness of the vaccine.
The vaccination program has not proved to be the panacea that we were all led to believe.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (25 November 2021)

For those who  sprechen sie Duetch, the article below explains how in Germany now, one cannot access End of Life Euthanasia clinics unless fully vaxed.

from The translation



> Euthanasia and the preparatory examination of the voluntary responsibility of our members willing to die require human closeness. Human closeness, however, is a prerequisite and breeding ground for corona virus transmission. As of today, the 2G rule applies in our association, supplemented by situation-related measures, such as quick tests before encounters in closed rooms.
> 
> In the difficult task of balancing the protection of our members, employees and doctors with the practical organization of our everyday life in the association, Dr. Martin Goßmann, the head of our medical team, is on hand to advise.



Yeah, makes sense.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2021)

A fresh look at Gunner's psychotic rant:


----------



## bellenuit (25 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I think you missed the point.
> With all the vaccinations throughout the world, a better treatment regime, and with two months of the year to go, the deaths are significantly higher.




Again, it is you who is missing the point. You are comparing almost 11 months of the current year against 9 months of the last year. It was end of March last year that the virus started to spread as is obvious from the graph. So first compare apples with apples. It is also clear if you take similar time durations, 1st March to December 31st  last year compared to 1st January to Sept 30th this year, the cumulative death toll this year is similar if not less, not significantly higher.

_If the provisions that have been taken, including vaccinations, deaths should be trailing off, or at worst stabilising. They obviously are not, they are increasing. _

Death will always be increasing, if you are looking at a cumulative death count graph. But they do appear to be tapering off somewhat as we near year end. The problem is the provisions have not been taken to a large extent in many areas of the States and the effectiveness of the vaccine is now starting to wane, so a booster will be necessary.  

_Whether the deaths come from vaccinated or unvaccinated , they are still deaths._

You seem to be implying that is not relevant. That is very relevant.

What we cannot see in these graphs is the what the death toll would have been if no measures were taken and no vaccine was available.


----------



## wayneL (25 November 2021)

Docs with rocks


----------



## mullokintyre (25 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Again, it is you who is missing the point. You are comparing almost 11 months of the current year against 9 months of the last year. It was end of March last year that the virus started to spread as is obvious from the graph. So first compare apples with apples. It is also clear if you take similar time durations, 1st March to December 31st  last year compared to 1st January to Sept 30th this year, the cumulative death toll this year is similar if not less, not significantly higher.



The point I was trying to make is that despite all the vaccines, the lockdowns, the masks, the improved care, the new treatment regimes etc, 
the toll is not going down. There are also some 48 million Americans who caught the virus.
Those who survived, around 47.3 million, will have had some form of immunity as well.

If you look at he table of data for countries, none have managed to reduce the incidence.
Mick


----------



## basilio (26 November 2021)

A new COVID variant has emerged in South Africa. Cross fingers and toes that it hasn't broken out of Africa (or Hong Kong) yet.

COVID-19 variant described as 'worst one yet' emerges in South Africa, prompting UK to ban travel from six countries​
Key points:​
The variant contains a different spike protein to the one vaccines were based on
Scientists say its mutations could make it more infectious
The UK has temporarily banned flights from South Africa and five other countries









						New COVID-19 variant described as 'worst one yet' emerges in South Africa
					

Britain bans travellers from six countries as scientists identify a new coronavirus variant they say has mutations likely to make it more infectious and resistant to vaccines.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (26 November 2021)

Link to article below,which contains all references etc:

******
Fully referenced facts about covid-19, provided by experts in the field, to help our readers make a realistic risk assessment. (Regular updates below).

“The only means to fight the plague is honesty.” (Albert Camus, 1947)

Overview
Lethality: According to the latest immunological studies, the overall infection fatality rate (IFR) of covid in the general population is about 0.1% to 0.5% in most countries, which is most closely comparable to the medium influenza pandemics of 1936, 1957 and 1968.
Vaccines: Real-world studies have shown a very high, but rapidly declining covid vaccine effectiveness against severe disease. Vaccination cannot prevent infection and transmission. Various severe and fatal vaccine adverse events have been reported, including in young people. A prior infection generally confers superior immunity compared to vaccination.
Treatment: For people at high risk or high exposure, early or prophylactic treatment is essential to prevent progression of the disease. According to numerous international studies, early outpatient treatment of covid may significantly reduce hospitalizations and deaths.
Age profile: The median age of covid deaths is over 80 years in most Western countries (78 in the US) and about 5% of the deceased had no serious preconditions. The age and risk profile of covid mortality is therefore comparable to normal mortality, but increases it proportionally.
Nursing homes: In many Western countries, about 50% of all covid deaths have occurred in nursing homes, which require targeted and humane protection. In some cases, care home residents died not from the coronavirus, but from weeks of stress and isolation.
Excess mortality: Overall, the pandemic has increased mortality by 5% to 25% in most Western countries. In some countries, up to 30% of additional deaths have been caused not by covid, but by indirect effects of the pandemic and lockdowns (including drug overdose deaths).
Antibodies: By the end of 2020, between 10% and 30% of the population in most Western countries had coronavirus antibodies. In India and some Latin American countries, coronavirus infection prevalence reached up to 75% by the summer of 2021.
Symptoms: About 30% of all infected persons show no symptoms. Overall, about 95% of all people develop at most mild or moderate symptoms and do not require hospitalization. Early outpatient treatment may significantly reduce hospitalizations.
Long covid: Up to 10% of symptomatic people experience post-acute or long covid, i.e. covid-related symptoms that last several weeks or months. Long covid may also affect younger and previously healthy people whose initial course of disease was rather mild.
Transmission: Indoor aerosols appear to be the main route of transmission of the coronavirus, while outdoor aerosols, droplets, as well as most object surfaces appear to play a minor role. The coronavirus season in the northern hemisphere usually lasts from November to April.
Masks: There is still little to no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of face masks in the general population, and the introduction of mandatory masks couldn’t contain or slow the epidemic in most countries. If used improperly, masks may increase the risk of infection.
Children and schools: In contrast to influenza, the risk of disease and transmission in children is rather low in the case of covid. There was and is therefore no medical reason for the closure of elementary schools or other measures specifically aimed at children.
Contact tracing: A WHO study of 2019 on measures against influenza pandemics concluded that from a medical perspective, contact tracing is “not recommended in any circumstances”. Contact tracing apps on cell phones have also proven ineffective in most countries.
PCR tests: The highly sensitive PCR test kits may in some cases produce false positive or false negative results or react to non-infectious virus fragments from a previous infection. In this regard, the so-called cycle threshold or ct value is an important parameter.
Virus mutations: Similar to influenza viruses, mutations occur frequently in coronaviruses. Most of these mutations are insignificant, but some of them may increase the transmissibility, virulence or immune evasion of the virus to some extent.
Lockdowns: In contrast to early border controls, lockdowns have had no significant effect on the pandemic. According to the UN, lockdowns may put the livelihood of 1.6 billion people at acute risk and may push an additional 150 million children into poverty.
Sweden: In Sweden, covid mortality in 2020, without lockdown, was comparable to a strong influenza season and somewhat below the EU average. About 50% of Swedish deaths occurred in nursing homes and the median age of Swedish covid deaths was about 84 years.
Media: The reporting of many media has been unprofessional, has increased fear and panic in the population and has led to a hundredfold overestimation of the lethality of the coronavirus. Some media even used manipulative pictures and videos to dramatize the situation.
Virus origin: The origin of the new coronavirus remains unknown, but the best evidence currently points to a covid-like pneumonia incident in a Chinese mine in 2012, whose virus samples were collected, stored and researched by the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV). Due to cooperations, some US labs may also have had access to these viruses.
Surveillance: NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden warned that the coronavirus pandemic may be used to expand global surveillance. Many governments have restricted fundamental rights of their citizens and announced plans to introduce digital biometric vaccine passports.










						Facts about Covid-19
					

Fully referenced facts about Covid-19, provided by experts in the field, to help our readers make a realistic risk assessment.




					swprs.org


----------



## sptrawler (26 November 2021)

Back at the beginning of this thread we said the virus could morph into something ugly, if it got a hold in Africa.
It sounds as though it is happening.


#92   page 5      on the  23/02/2020


sptrawler said:


> If it gets into Africa, there could be problems, HIV is still pretty rampant there from what I've read.





Today 26/11/2021

A new COVID variant has emerged in South Africa. Cross fingers and toes that it hasn't broken out of Africa (or Hong Kong) yet.


basilio said:


> COVID-19 variant described as 'worst one yet' emerges in South Africa, prompting UK to ban travel from six countries​
> Key points:​
> The variant contains a different spike protein to the one vaccines were based on
> Scientists say its mutations could make it more infectious
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (26 November 2021)

The latest in Anti covid measures


----------



## basilio (26 November 2021)

The South Africian variant is moving rapidly. This second story highlights the rate of spread of this new version. Already in Hong Kong as well.









						South Africa to be put on England’s travel red list over new Covid variant
					

Flights from six countries will be banned as officials review travel measures after scientists voice concern over variant




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (26 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Back at the beginning of this thread we said the virus could morph into something ugly, if it got a hold in Africa.
> It sounds as though it is happening.
> 
> 
> ...



The thing is SP, this is not the first time "they" have jumped the shark with regards to coronavirus mutations. 

As it happens I have a client originally from Botswana who actually works in the medical field, and still has family over there. A couple of phone calls revealed (in her family members opinion at least) that it has been blown out of all proportion.

And we have been here before with with a few other Greek letters.

I think it would pay to take a few steps back and view this with some healthy cynicism.... And I would encourage folks to read my post above also.


----------



## IFocus (26 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The point I was trying to make is that despite all the vaccines, the lockdowns, the masks, the improved care, the new treatment regimes etc,
> the toll is not going down. There are also some 48 million Americans who caught the virus.
> Those who survived, around 47.3 million, will have had some form of immunity as well.
> 
> ...





Haven't looked for a while however when I did the death rate and positive test rate had detached trend wise from each other in counties with high vax rates.

The US vax rate is actually quite low and some states that have very low vax rates and are still getting hammered.

Spain vax rates are quite high I assume its death rate is quite low (haven't checked) as a result.

European countries that are going back into lock downs vax rates are around 60% (Austria from memory) similar to the US.

All the measures put in place in Australia clearly have had an effect looking at the death rate even if it gives many a false sense of security and and reason for aggression against state authorities.

Note that the most aggressive measure was shutting the overseas border to Australia passport holders who want to come home, only country in the world to do so... hardly a whisper about it?

Politics anyone?


----------



## sptrawler (26 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> The thing is SP, this is not the first time "they" have jumped the shark with regards to coronavirus mutations.
> 
> As it happens I have a client originally from Botswana who actually works in the medical field, and still has family over there. A couple of phone calls revealed (in her family members opinion at least) that it has been blown out of all proportion.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with you, also I really was reluctant to get the vaccine, however if this virus picks up a nasty mutation that increases the mortality rate, then we aren't talking about the same virus.

The original strain was having very low death rate and it was really only affecting the elderly, or those with underlying respiratory issues.

The worldwide response appeared overblown or under explained, now with the new outbreaks in areas of the world that have high vaccination rates, it is becoming obvious either the immunity is waning or the vaccine is no longer effective as the virus changes.

The one thing that was blantantly obvious from the beginning was, it is highly contagious, if the fatality rate can be increased well it could be a game changer.
Say it picks up the testse virus I think there are about 200 strains, or the HIV virus or even ebola  and is as contagious as covid 19, well it will be interesting to say the least. Long covid will be the least of peoples problems, long HIV or long Tsetse fever would really be a pain in the butt and I'm not sure there is long ebola.

The U.K has already shut its borders to flights from Africa, it wouldn't surprise me to see that many countries will follow suit. 









						UK bans travel to South Africa over new Covid variant
					

The UK government has placed South Africa and five other countries onto its travel ‘red list’ following the emergence of a new Covid-19 variant in Southern Africa.




					businesstech.co.za


----------



## wayneL (26 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I don't disagree with you, also I really was reluctant to get the vaccine, however if this virus picks up a nasty mutation that increases the mortality rate, then we aren't talking about the same virus.
> 
> The original strain was having very low death rate and it was really only affecting the elderly, or those with underlying respiratory issues.
> 
> ...



That can happen with any virus though... and assuming these new mutations are as radical as represented, the injections are probably useless against it anyway.

One thing is for sure that if they try the whole lockdown cycle again, they are going to have to declare martial law, because we the people are not going to tolerate it without being threatened by a large, armed military presence.

I have my own hypothesis about this new strain, but will just stfu about it for now.


----------



## sptrawler (26 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> That can happen with any virus though... and assuming these new mutations are as radical as represented, the injections are probably useless against it anyway.
> 
> One thing is for sure that if they try the whole lockdown cycle again, they are going to have to declare martial law, because we the people are not going to tolerate it without being threatened by a large, armed military presence.
> 
> I have my own hypothesis about this new strain, but will just stfu about it for now.



The wife and I had the vaccine because we want to get back into travelling, we are getting time poor 
However if the new escalation causes another extension of the hard borders, we definitely wont be having a booster, until the ridiculous situation is resolved one way or the other.


----------



## rederob (26 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> Overview
> Lethality: According to the latest immunological studies, the overall infection fatality rate (IFR) of covid in the general population is about 0.1% to 0.5% in most countries, which is most closely comparable to the medium influenza pandemics of 1936, 1957 and 1968.



The first claim incorrect and the second point is cherry picking. The IFR varies in the range of 0.5% to 1.0% based on global data.
The IFR for seasonal flu is about one order of magnitude less.


wayneL said:


> A prior infection generally confers superior immunity compared to vaccination.



May be true - not enough data and there are many different vaccines in use.  But where is the sense in choosing a path more likely to lead to hospitalisation or death?


wayneL said:


> Age profile: The median age of covid deaths is over 80 years in most Western countries (78 in the US) and about 5% of the deceased had no serious preconditions.



This is in part a legacy issue.  Delta has changed the mix, eg  in India 35% of the deaths were recorded in the age group of 45-60 years.  It is a false premise to assume your age or health makes you bullet proof.


wayneL said:


> The age and risk profile of covid mortality is therefore comparable to normal mortality, but increases it proportionally.



This is false and based on the trivial fact that age is significantly proportional to death.  Excess death rates give the lie to this misconception.


wayneL said:


> Nursing homes: In many Western countries, about 50% of all covid deaths have occurred in nursing homes, which require targeted and humane protection. In some cases, care home residents died not from the coronavirus, but from weeks of stress and isolation.



Possibly true, but based on a guess.  Not everyone who died was tested for covid, and this also became a big issue in New York State when covid ravaged in 2020.


wayneL said:


> Excess mortality: Overall, the pandemic has increased mortality by 5% to 25% in most Western countries. In some countries, up to 30% of additional deaths have been caused not by covid, but by indirect effects of the pandemic and lockdowns (including drug overdose deaths).



No data to support this latter claim.  In fact covid deaths may be higher due to misclassifications, while in some cases non-covid deaths can be attributed to hospital overload from covid patients preventing illnesses being diagnosed, or critical care and surgeries being timely.


wayneL said:


> Overall, about 95% of all people develop at most mild or moderate symptoms and do not require hospitalization.



Currently in Australia just over 4% of active cases are hospitalised, with 0.6% in ICU.  If you think this is in any way comparable to seasonal flu then you are delusional.  Luckily Australia has a very low case count as if we got to US percentages our hospitals would be overrun.


wayneL said:


> Masks: There is still little to no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of face masks in the general population, and the introduction of mandatory masks couldn’t contain or slow the epidemic in most countries. If used improperly, masks may increase the risk of infection.



These are completely BS claims.  The reason masks are mandated is due to proven effectiveness.  


wayneL said:


> Lockdowns: In contrast to early border controls, lockdowns have had no significant effect on the pandemic.



You won't convince people in WA, SA, Qld, or Tas that this is true.  Compliance in NSW was a major factor in getting numbers to manageable levels.  


wayneL said:


> Sweden: In Sweden, covid mortality in 2020, without lockdown, was comparable to a strong influenza season and somewhat below the EU average. About 50% of Swedish deaths occurred in nursing homes and the median age of Swedish covid deaths was about 84 years.



This chestnut needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.  All other Nordic nations did better.


wayneL said:


> Media: The reporting of many media has been unprofessional, has increased fear and panic in the population and has led to a hundredfold overestimation of the lethality of the coronavirus.



Whereas this link would have you believe covid is a bit like the flu.


wayneL said:


> Virus origin: The origin of the new coronavirus remains unknown, but the best evidence currently points to a covid-like pneumonia incident in a Chinese mine in 2012, whose virus samples were collected, stored and researched by the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV). Due to cooperations, some US labs may also have had access to these viruses.



This is BS.  The best evidence suggests an intermediary of unknown origin.


wayneL said:


> Surveillance: NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden warned that the coronavirus pandemic may be used to expand global surveillance. Many governments have restricted fundamental rights of their citizens and announced plans to introduce digital biometric vaccine passports.



This is where the link shows its true colours.  Covid is a global pandemic which to date has affected a very small proportion of the population.  Vaccines are an imperfect panacea.  Anyone doubting this can look at how high rates of vaccination in Gibraltar have led to extremely low death rates.  Governments have a key role in protecting the lives of its citizens, so in the absence of a silver bullet it makes sense to prioritise vaccinations and the vaccinated over those who choose a different path. 

There are lots of sites which provide reasonable explanations of the data and science relating to covid, and a semblance of balance.  As is often the case @wayneL has found one which is loaded with misinformation and abysmal analysis.


----------



## wayneL (26 November 2021)

The mind boggles


----------



## sptrawler (26 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The U.K has already shut its borders to flights from Africa, it wouldn't surprise me to see that many countries will follow suit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well what do you know, get ready to batten down the hatches. 🤣 








						Australian health authorities won’t hesitate to shut border to South Africa
					

Health Minister Greg Hunt said the country would not hesitate to block flights from South Africa if health experts are concerned about the new coronavirus variant.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## wayneL (27 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well what do you know, get ready to batten down the hatches. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...




.... Rinse... Repeat...

Until people wake the fark up.


----------



## rederob (27 November 2021)

wayneL said:


> .... Rinse... Repeat...
> 
> Until people wake the fark up.



Border closures are being lifted as vaccination rates increase.
People choosing to *not to *vaccinate delay the milestones and continue the theme of border closures.


----------



## DB008 (27 November 2021)

basilio said:


> COVID-19 variant described as 'worst one yet' emerges in South Africa, prompting UK to ban travel from six countries​




Depends where you get your news from l guess.

32 mutations in the spike protein. Interesting.



​


----------



## basilio (27 November 2021)

DB008 said:


> Depends where you get your news from l guess.
> 
> 32 mutations in the spike protein. Interesting.
> 
> ...




To date most people have followed the advice of doctors and scientists who have extensive understanding of the COVID virus and how it has affected people.  We have also watched how COVID to date has ravaged communities around the world so these are facts on the ground.

And then we have the others. Those who have relentlessly undermined the dangers of the COVID virus. Who have tried to paint it as a little flu. Who have promoted ranges of cures that are simply mirages or outright dangers to health.

And  many of these same actors have  now systematically undermined community confidence in vaccines that will offer substantial protection against catching the disease and reduce the impact of the disease. Not a perfect solution but the best one we have right now. The relentless trashing of vaccination is not cool.
---------------------------------------------------

But back to video. * This doctor isn't an anti vaxxer. *He doesn't undermine the seriousness of COVID. He is trying to say that we don't know *for sure* yet how dangerous this new variant is in terms of  infection and virulence. So he thinks we shouldn't be stopping travel from South Africa. His argument is this decision is hurting poor people in South Africa. (Hmm ? )

He highlights all the other variations that have come up that amounted to nothing. Quite true. But I think the scientists who noted these variations believed, on the evidence, that they didn't represent a  more substantial risk. Yes worth keeping an eye on but don't lose too much sleep over it.

*However those same scientists and doctors are not as sanguine about this new  COVID version.* It  appears far more infectious. It's too early to tell if it is more virulant. And they are still dangerously unsure about whether current vaccines will protect against it.

So with all that*  legitimate uncertainty* I think the precautionary approach of stopping travel, quarantining anyone who has come from the area and keeping an extra close eye on this variant as it spreads in Africa makes perfect sense.

Frankly I'm really disappointed he couldn't respect and support that position.


----------



## bellenuit (27 November 2021)

It might be jumping the gun to say this variant originated in South Africa. Interesting post from Twitter:


----------



## basilio (27 November 2021)

This may be preaching to the converted but I thought Dr Z message regarding Plandemic was worth highlighting.

Plandemic was/is the war cry of the  COVID conspirators


----------



## basilio (27 November 2021)

Good summary of Omicron. Nothing is certain.  But it needs some very close attention.









						Omicron: everything you need to know about new Covid variant
					

Key questions answered about coronavirus variant first detected in southern Africa




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## DB008 (27 November 2021)

Interesting, true or not?​


> Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche explains how mass vaccination w/ leaky vaccines drives the acceleration of escape mutants:
> 
> “What mass vaccination has done, it has, within a short timeframe, generated an excellent breeding ground for these more infectious variants so that now their propagation has exploded as a result of the mass vaccination.”​



​




Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## rederob (27 November 2021)

DB008 said:


> Interesting, true or not?
> 
> 
> ​
> View attachment 133477​



This one has been done to death.
Variants only occur through spread, and vaccinations reduce spread.
Brainless!


----------



## mullokintyre (28 November 2021)

Those on ASF who are familiar with the Greek Alphabet will have  ,I am sure, not failed to notice that the next sequential letter in the alphabet ,Xi, was bypassed and Omicron used for the latest mutation.
I suppose it would have been too much to have a variant named after the head dictator in the country from where it emanated.
Mick


----------



## joeno (28 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I suppose it would have been too much to have a variant named after the head dictator in the country from where it emanated.
> Mick




The world is governed by: dictatorships/oligarchies, mob-rule democracies that pilfer other lands, and incompetent sideliners ruled by little girls wearing flower hats.

There is no good or bad. There is only the rule of the fist. Whoever has the biggest military and most effective propaganda machine determines who is bad and who is good.


----------



## Belli (28 November 2021)

Software is used to designate the lineage of the virus not humans deliberately picking a name.


----------



## mullokintyre (28 November 2021)

Belli said:


> Software is used to designate the lineage of the virus not humans deliberately picking a name.



Geez, even the software bows to Chinese rule!!
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (28 November 2021)

Belli said:


> Software is used to designate the lineage of the virus not humans deliberately picking a name.



Not sure where you got that info, but I read the following from MSN News


> A WHO source confirmed the letters Nu and Xi had been deliberately avoided. Nu had been skipped to avoid confusion with the word “new” and Xi had been ducked to “avoid stigmatising the region”, they said.
> 
> Since May, new variants of Sars-COV-2 have been given sequential names from the Greek alphabet under a naming convention devised by an expert committee at the WHO.
> 
> ...



Mick


----------



## Belli (28 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Not sure where you got that info,




Centre for Genomic Pathogen Surveillance.

It can be better to cease a diet of tinfoil and ingest something more nutritious.


----------



## mullokintyre (28 November 2021)

Belli said:


> Centre for Genomic Pathogen Surveillance.
> 
> It can be better to cease a diet of tinfoil and ingest something more nutritious.



And perhaps you might actually quote the source of this information rather than just sticking out a name.
I  provided the URL for the source I quoted .
I went looking for the organisation you mentioned, but could not find any reference, not that this means one does not exist.
And here is one from the WHO talking about the collaboratation of naming of variants, but there is no mention of  Centre for Genomic Pathogen Surveillance.
I will reinforce my tinfoil hat with some ivermectin horse tablets and move well away from the 5G tower as well.
Mick


----------



## rederob (28 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And perhaps you might actually quote the source of this information rather than just sticking out a name.
> I  provided the URL for the source I quoted .
> I went looking for the organisation you mentioned, but could not find any reference, not that this means one does not exist.
> And here is one from the WHO talking about the collaboratation of naming of variants, but there is no mention of  Centre for Genomic Pathogen Surveillance.
> ...



If you checked the reasons for nomenclature you would have learned that representatives from GISAID, Nextstrain, Pango and additional experts in virological, microbial nomenclature and communication suggested easy-to-pronounce and non-stigmatising terms.
The Greek letter "x" is pronounced to sound like "kai", while "xi" sounds like "see" (as in ta*xi*) in Greek.  In China and now often elsewhere as a result of Xi Jinping's prevalence in news, "xi" is pronounced "shee".  These allophones - "see" and "she" - clearly have different meanings to a covid strain variant - based on the term "xi" - so it was not difficult to exclude it.


----------



## Belli (28 November 2021)

To be honest I consider any angst over naming convention is nothing but a distraction from the main objective in regard to the virus.


----------



## Belli (28 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I went looking for the organisation you mentioned, but could not find any reference,




By using web search "Centre for Genomic Pathogen Surveillance" it took longer to type this post.  As to why you were unable to find it I won't hazard to guess.





__





						Latest News | Centre for Genomic Pathogen Surveillance
					

The Centre for Genomic Pathogen Surveillance (CGPS) is a world-leading research centre working at the cutting edge of genomic technologies to prevent the spread of pathogens.




					www.pathogensurveillance.net


----------



## wayneL (28 November 2021)

Things that come across my timeline... Naming conventions notwithstanding:


----------



## mullokintyre (28 November 2021)

Belli said:


> By using web search "Centre for Genomic Pathogen Surveillance" it took longer to type this post.  As to why you were unable to find it I won't hazard to guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Heres your original comment.


> Software is used to designate the lineage of the virus not humans deliberately picking a name.



I supplied two references to where the WHO does the naming.
When I questioned  that you provided the name of an organisation.
I was looking for the evidence that supported it, you put up the name of an organisation.
I did a google searching looking for where you might haver found evidence  that the organisation you quoted used software to designate the lineage of the virus.  You did not provide it, went on a tangent.
Still waiting.
Mick


----------



## rederob (28 November 2021)

Belli said:


> By using web search "Centre for Genomic Pathogen Surveillance" it took longer to type this post.  As to why you were unable to find it I won't hazard to guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I want to know where he got his tin hat from:


----------



## moXJO (28 November 2021)

Interesting to note pfizer apparently said: "vaccine in 100 days".

Do we know enough to jab again. Seems like fear mongering at this stage


----------



## macca (28 November 2021)

Seems to me that as soon as the world comes to grips with one variant another one arrives "out of the blue"


----------



## mullokintyre (28 November 2021)

heard a neat story this afternoon.
Not sure if its true, may well be another  "suburban myth".
According to this person , a certain ice addict was being paid 300 a time to take another persons medicare card into the vaccination clinic get the jab, and the vax certificate sent to the medicare mygov app for the person on the card who was then recorded as having been fully vaxed without ever having had the jab. Great for those anti vaxers!
The addict was supposed to have made thousands, and had numerous doses.
However, I thought that at these pop up clinics you would need to provide ID as well as a medicare card.
Not sure if I had to provide ID when I got my jab, because it was at my local GP.
Mick


----------



## bellenuit (28 November 2021)

macca said:


> Seems to me that as soon as the world comes to grips with one variant another one arrives "out of the blue"



No, out of a mutation.


----------



## bellenuit (28 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Interesting to note pfizer apparently said: "vaccine in 100 days".
> 
> Do we know enough to jab again. Seems like fear mongering at this stage




They are just being overly cautious. Until they know more, closing the borders is the safest choice to make.


----------



## wayneL (28 November 2021)

Pretty much as you'd expect in the evolution of a coronavirus


----------



## moXJO (28 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> They are just being overly cautious. Until they know more, closing the borders is the safest choice to make.



A lot of question marks as of now. It's apparently more contagious. But the rest is still being investigated.

If the symptoms are mild they will let it rip.


----------



## bellenuit (28 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> A lot of question marks as of now. It's apparently more contagious. But the rest is still being investigated.
> 
> If the symptoms are mild they will let it rip.




My understanding is there are advantages in letting it rip if the symptoms are mild, particularly if it is more infectious than the other variants. It can dominate new infections, in effect closing out the less infectious but more deadly other strains. By spreading quickly it will provide a degree of natural immunity without the risks from acquiring natural immunity from the other more dangerous variants.


----------



## moXJO (28 November 2021)

bellenuit said:


> My understanding is there are advantages in letting it rip if the symptoms are mild, particularly if it is more infectious than the other variants. It can dominate new infections, in effect closing out the less infectious but more deadly other strains. By spreading quickly it will provide a degree of natural immunity without the risks from acquiring natural immunity from the other more dangerous variants.



With lockdown fatigue where it is, let's pray for good news to a terrible year.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2021)

It would be great if in fact Omicron proves to be a mild version of COVID which effectively crowds out other versions.  I noticed that the two infected travellers in NSW were fully vaccinated and asymptomatic.  In effect this would be  the Cow pox vs Smallpox example where milkmaids who picked up Cowpox from their animals didn't get the deadly  smallpox illness.

The challenging possibility is that vaccinated people may be protected from serious illness but unvaccinated people may not.  









						Australia's first cases of Omicron COVID-19 strain detected in Sydney travellers
					

NSW Health confirms two returned travellers have tested positive for the new Omicron COVID-19 variant in Sydney, making them the first known cases in the country.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (28 November 2021)

Meanwhile China is taking no risks with letting COVID rip. Their view is that their Health system couldn't withstand the sort of pressure this decision would generate.









						China study warns of 'colossal' COVID outbreak if it opens up, with daily cases forecast to exceed 630,000
					

A study by Peking University mathematicians shows China could not afford to lift travel restrictions without more efficient vaccinations or specific treatments.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (30 November 2021)

If we wanted to let Omicron rip it has had a flying start in Sydney. One of the infected persons visited a arm long list of places before she became aware she had the strain. Given how infectious it seems to be this is problematical.

_The woman, who is fully vaccinated, arrived in Sydney on flight QR908 from Doha and travelled by private car to the Central Coast.

LIVE UPDATES: Read our blog for the latest news on the COVID-19 pandemic
Anyone who was on the flight is considered a close contact and will need to get tested immediately for COVID-19 and isolate for 14 days, regardless of their vaccination status.

Anyone who attended these venues in Parramatta and on the Central Coast at the following times is a casual contact who must immediately get tested and isolate until a negative result is received.

*Friday, November 26:*
_

_Coles Top Ryde, Ryde (9:30am to 10:45am)_
_Target at Westfield Parramatta (10:45am to 11am)_
_H&M at Westfield Parramatta (11am to 11:15am)_
_Athlete's Foot at Westfield Parramatta (11:15am to 11:30am)_
_JD Sports at Westfield Parramatta (11:15am to 12pm)_
_Rebel Sports at Westfield Parramatta (12pm to 12:45pm)_
_IGA North Wyong (6:15pm to 7pm)_
_Pizza Hut Wyong (7pm – 7:15pm)_
_KFC North Wyong (7:15pm to 7:30pm)_
_Woolworths Wadalba (7.30pm to 8:15pm)_
_*Saturday, November 27:*
_

_Aldi Toukley (4:45pm to 5:45pm)_
_








						New Omicron case visited shops, fast food outlets in Sydney and Central Coast
					

NSW Health confirms a traveller from southern Africa who visited shops across Sydney before isolating in the Central Coast has been infected with the Omicron COVID-19 variant.




					www.abc.net.au
				



_


----------



## moXJO (30 November 2021)

Fully vaccinated and caught it easy. Makes you wonder if it will simply slip past the vaccine. She didn't seem to have symptoms though so it might be a positive.


----------



## basilio (1 December 2021)

Powerful story on The Guardian about a fitness fanatic who died from COVID. Delves into effect of anti vaxxers on peoples minds and the disruption to families when these conversations come up. Also some very intriguing medical information on why John suffered and died with COVID.









						The life and tragic death of John Eyers – a fitness fanatic who refused the vaccine
					

He did triathlons, bodybuilding and mountain climbing and became sceptical of the Covid jab. Then, at 42, he contracted the virus




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (2 December 2021)

I've been trying to highlight this to people since I heard about this problem last year. I believe economists might call this an externality. I call it @#£&ing criminal.


----------



## basilio (2 December 2021)

*Nearer My Lord to Thee..*​*Co-founder of Christian TV network that railed against vaccines dies of Covid-19*​Marcus Lamb, 64, whose Daystar network reaches an estimated 2 billion viewers worldwide, had pushed alternative therapies

...Last month Lamb’s son Jonathan said that his father’s illness was due to sinister outside forces.

“There’s no doubt in my mind that this is a spiritual attack from the enemy,” he said, adding that Lamb has pushed alternative therapies and that “there’s no doubt that the enemy is not happy about that. And he’s doing everything he can to take down my Dad.”









						Co-founder of Christian TV network that railed against vaccines dies of Covid-19
					

Marcus Lamb, 64, whose Daystar network reaches an estimated 2 billion viewers worldwide, had pushed alternative therapies




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## rederob (2 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> I've been trying to highlight this to people since I heard about this problem last year. I believe economists might call this an externality. I call it @#£&ing criminal.




The setting aside of surgery or inability to see/treat patients was raised as a health issue from the outset of the pandemic, and was a major reason Australian States/Territories adopted the hard line they did, and continue with.
Despite your stream of posts likening covid to a bad flu, it near-collapsed many national health systems and has had inevitable consequences.  
Why you think you were the only one who knew this would happen is a mystery only to you.


----------



## mullokintyre (3 December 2021)

The American Heart Association  has put out a study on the affects of mRna vaccines on one of the indicators for heart disease, the PULS score.
The tweet to it , found HERE has been slapped with a "warning: Link may be unsafe" tab by the medical experts at Twitter.
Not wise to get your medical advice from twitter, nor from the AHA it seems.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2021)

Hanson misinformation and the response.









						We fact checked Pauline Hanson on deaths of vaccinated people in the UK. Here's what we found
					

At a recent "freedom rally", One Nation leader Pauline Hanson said more double-vaccinated people are dying in the UK than unvaccinated people. But her claim was missing critical context.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (3 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The American Heart Association  has put out a study ...



They did *NOT*.
They published an "abstract" to a presentation by a former heart surgeon turned salesman.
I can't find a medical science paper with any further information.  However, what Gundry found was that the mRNA vaccinations increase inflammation on the endothelium and T cell infiltration of the cardiac muscle and may account for the observations of increased thrombosis, cardiomyopathy, and other vascular events following vaccination.  He may well be right as something has to cause these known effects. What we have not seen are the effects translating into traceable deaths.


----------



## mullokintyre (3 December 2021)

rederob said:


> They did *NOT*.
> They published an "abstract" to a presentation by a former heart surgeon turned salesman.
> I can't find a medical science paper with any further information.  However, what Gundry found was that the mRNA vaccinations increase inflammation on the endothelium and T cell infiltration of the cardiac muscle and may account for the observations of increased thrombosis, cardiomyopathy, and other vascular events following vaccination.  He may well be right as something has to cause these known effects. What we have not seen are the effects translating into traceable deaths.



As usual, you go off on a tangent.
The post was about  Twitter and its  warnings .
Twitter is in no position to determine what the AHA has published  requires a warning.

Mick


----------



## rederob (3 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> As usual, you go off on a tangent.
> The post was about  Twitter and its  warnings .
> Twitter is in no position to determine what the AHA has published  requires a warning.
> 
> Mick



Read what you wrote!
If you are concerned about what's in tweets then put it in an appropriate thread. 
That said, what you seem unwilling to grasp is that social media *are *taking some responsibility for what their platforms contain, and to say they are "in no position" to do that is plain nonsense.


----------



## mullokintyre (3 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Read what you wrote!
> If you are concerned about what's in tweets then put it in an appropriate thread.
> That said, what you seem unwilling to grasp is that social media *are *taking some responsibility for what their platforms contain, and to say they are "in no position" to do that is plain nonsense.



Read what you wrote?
For heavens sake Rob, talk about Pot kettle black.
I said that Twitter is in no positon to deternine the health  content of an AHA post.
I said nothing about the taking responsibility for their platforms.

Mick


----------



## wayneL (3 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The American Heart Association  has put out a study on the affects of mRna vaccines on one of the indicators for heart disease, the PULS score.
> The tweet to it , found HERE has been slapped with a "warning: Link may be unsafe" tab by the medical experts at Twitter.
> Not wise to get your medical advice from twitter, nor from the AHA it seems.
> Mick



...and Twitter gets pretty p¹ssed when you try to click on that link too.


----------



## rederob (3 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Read what you wrote?
> For heavens sake Rob, talk about Pot kettle black.
> I said that Twitter is in no positon to deternine the health  content of an AHA post.
> I said nothing about the taking responsibility for their platforms.
> ...



All social media are taking steps to ensure their content is properly described where claims are dubious, and that what Twitter is doing.  So on that point you are plain wrong.
The other things you fail on relate to the fact that AHA merely included a contributor's abstract to a presentation to his AHA session on 13 November.  The AHA did *not *"post" anything, and they certainly have not produced any study.  However your post clearly suggests it's of AHA's making, which is false.
If your intention was to highlight social media policies then why didn't you post this where it belongs?


----------



## mullokintyre (3 December 2021)

rederob said:


> All social media are taking steps to ensure their content is properly described where claims are dubious, and that what Twitter is doing.  So on that point you are plain wrong.
> The other things you fail on relate to the fact that AHA merely included a contributor's abstract to a presentation to his AHA session on 13 November.  The AHA did *not *"post" anything, and they certainly have not produced any study.  However your post clearly suggests it's of AHA's making, which is false.
> If your intention was to highlight social media policies then why didn't you post this where it belongs?



What utter garbage.
Do you ever read twitter or Facebook?
Its chock full of  absolute drivel ass well as downright lies.
The fact that Twitter blocks the  POTUS, but allows the Taliban to twit says it all.
Ya still full of it.
Mick


----------



## rederob (3 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> What utter garbage.



You know *you are* *wrong*, but still insist otherwise!


mullokintyre said:


> Do you ever read twitter or Facebook?



Irrelevant to the facts - see above links.


mullokintyre said:


> Its chock full of  absolute drivel ass well as downright lies.



So what?  When *false attributions to AHA* endorsement are made it gets a bit more *serious *than the typical dross of Twitter and Facebook, especially as the intention is to cast aspersions on the benefit of vaccinations.  The average reader can work this out.


mullokintyre said:


> The fact that Twitter blocks the  POTUS, but allows the Taliban to twit says it all.



Your logic is deficient.  Trump's lies *after the fact* led to serious injuries and deaths at the Capitol, and he still has tens of millions believing he won the election.


----------



## mullokintyre (3 December 2021)

rederob said:


> You know *you are* *wrong*, but still insist otherwise!
> 
> Irrelevant to the facts - see above links.
> 
> ...



Blah blah blah.


----------



## macca (4 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Blah blah blah.



This one Mick ? from here






						Abstract 10712: Mrna COVID Vaccines Dramatically Increase Endothelial Inflammatory Markers and ACS Risk as Measured by the PULS Cardiac Test: a Warning
					

Our group has been using the PLUS Cardiac Test (GD Biosciences, Inc, Irvine, CA) a clinically validated measurement of multiple protein biomarkers which generates a score predicting the 5 yr risk (pe



					www.ahajournals.org
				




Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, Vascular Biology​Session Title: Damps, Infection and Cardiovascular Metabolism​Abstract 10712: Mrna COVID Vaccines Dramatically Increase Endothelial Inflammatory Markers and ACS Risk as Measured by the PULS Cardiac Test: a Warning​ 
Steven R Gundry

Originally published8 Nov 2021Circulation. 2021;144:A10712

This article has an expression of concern
Abstract​Our group has been using the PLUS Cardiac Test (GD Biosciences, Inc, Irvine, CA) a clinically validated measurement of multiple protein biomarkers which generates a score predicting the 5 yr risk (percentage chance) of a new Acute Coronary Syndrome (ACS). The score is based on changes from the norm of multiple protein biomarkers including IL-16, a proinflammatory cytokine, soluble Fas, an inducer of apoptosis, and Hepatocyte Growth Factor (HGF)which serves as a marker for chemotaxis of T-cells into epithelium and cardiac tissue, among other markers. Elevation above the norm increases the PULS score, while decreases below the norm lowers the PULS score.The score has been measured every 3-6 months in our patient population for 8 years. Recently, with the advent of the mRNA COVID 19 vaccines (vac) by Moderna and Pfizer, dramatic changes in the PULS score became apparent in most patients.This report summarizes those results. A total of 566 pts, aged 28 to 97, M:F ratio 1:1 seen in a preventive cardiology practice had a new PULS test drawn from 2 to 10 weeks following the 2nd COVID shot and was compared to the previous PULS score drawn 3 to 5 months previously pre- shot. Baseline IL-16 increased from 35=/-20 above the norm to 82 =/- 75 above the norm post-vac; sFas increased from 22+/- 15 above the norm to 46=/-24 above the norm post-vac; HGF increased from 42+/-12 above the norm to 86+/-31 above the norm post-vac. These changes resulted in an increase of the PULS score from 11% 5 yr ACS risk to 25% 5 yr ACS risk. At the time of this report, these changes persist for at least 2.5 months post second dose of vac.We conclude that the mRNA vacs dramatically increase inflammation on the endothelium and T cell infiltration of cardiac muscle and may account for the observations of increased thrombosis, cardiomyopathy, and other vascular events following vaccination.


----------



## moXJO (4 December 2021)

Are face masks biodegradable?
These things are bloody everywhere. What's the point of banning straws and replacing it with disposable masks every damn where.


----------



## wayneL (5 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Are face masks biodegradable?
> These things are bloody everywhere. What's the point of banning straws and replacing it with disposable masks every damn where.



Exactly!!!

These things are causing all sorts of problems.


----------



## rederob (5 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Are face masks biodegradable?
> These things are bloody everywhere. What's the point of banning straws and replacing it with disposable masks every damn where.



My 3-layer cotton face mask with a filter is washable and now well over a year old.  It's way more comfortable and safer than the disposables, and the pattern on it makes it less sterile to look at.  
So if you are worries about disposable face masks, choose a much better alternative.


----------



## DB008 (5 December 2021)

I think QLD is going to be going into lockdown soon. If we had been able to get some form of natural immunity, l think we would be in such a better position. I spoke to a sub-contractor at work and he contracted Covid-19 last year while working in PNG. He didn't even know he had it, only through a covid test did he find out he had anti-bodies.


----------



## moXJO (5 December 2021)

rederob said:


> My 3-layer cotton face mask with a filter is washable and now well over a year old.  It's way more comfortable and safer than the disposables, and the pattern on it makes it less sterile to look at.
> So if you are worries about disposable face masks, choose a much better alternative.



I own two masks that have lasted just fine. I also wouldn't throw disposables on the ground and litter. But these things are all over the place. A lot have the plastic on the nose strip.


----------



## DB008 (5 December 2021)

Worth a watch. The first 5 minutes....





.​


----------



## DB008 (5 December 2021)

40:00 mark. NAIL.ON.HEAD


----------



## wayneL (6 December 2021)

NSW Police prosecutor speaks out about Vax injuries and deaths

"Stephen Kelly is a 28 year police veteran who has spent the majority of his career in the Coronial Law Unit assisting the Coroner with inquests. He has an excellent understanding of medical practice and the law."


----------



## wayneL (7 December 2021)

It will be interesting to see where this leads.


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2021)

Omicron seems to be mild.  They can punch vaccinating my 5yo kids up their ar$e till I see compelling data.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> It will be interesting to see where this leads.




I would put more credence on it if the scientists or doctors were speaking, but lawyers?
I rank them down with politicians and lobbyists on the scale of credibility.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I would put more credence on it if the scientists or doctors were speaking, but lawyers?
> I rank them down with politicians and lobbyists on the scale of credibility.
> Mick



Well you sort of need lawyers to bring actions such as these. I strongly doubt anything will come of it anytime soon, but I find it interesting that the Nuremberg 2.0 idea is gaining traction.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well you sort of need lawyers to bring actions such as these. I strongly doubt anything will come of it anytime soon, but I find it interesting that the Nuremberg 2.0 idea is gaining traction.



Unfortunately, the traction is not where it counts.
There are too many governments, qangoes, and NGO's  all singing rom the same song sheet.
It will struggle to get beyond the fringes.
Mick


----------



## rederob (8 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well you sort of need lawyers to bring actions such as these. I strongly doubt anything will come of it anytime soon, but I find it interesting that the Nuremberg 2.0 idea is gaining traction.



Along with Trump's 2020 election win, fake moon landing and flat earth.
What about the President of Antarctica having to prevent flying pigs from breaking her castle windows?  Well, I know that's not true because the President is a man.  Still, I reckon if I can get QAnon onto this one, then we have lift off.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2021)

Submitted without comment:


----------



## DB008 (8 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Omicron seems to be mild. They can punch vaccinating my 5yo kids up their ar$e till I see compelling data.




And Covid-19 is age based too. Generally speaking, the older you get, worse the effects. Your better off catching covid-19 NOW, IMO.

I've had both jabs, please give me Omricon.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> And Covid-19 is age based too. Generally speaking, the older you get, worse the effects. Your better off catching covid-19 NOW, IMO.
> 
> I've had both jabs, please give me Omricon.



I don't want to get the damn thing at all. But if it turns out to be inevitable, I'll the the omicron please


----------



## bellenuit (8 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> Your better off catching covid-19 NOW, IMO.




Informed opinion as expressed by experts is that you are better of getting COVID-19 if you have been vaccinated and are a breakthrough case. Your are less likely to be seriously injured and significantly less likely to die. Your immunity is also stronger than if you have natural immunity only.

Please educated yourselves and don't play Russian roulette with your health or your lives.


----------



## wayneL (8 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Informed opinion as expressed by experts is that you are better of getting COVID-19 if you have been vaccinated and are a breakthrough case. Your are less likely to be seriously injured and significantly less likely to die. Your immunity is also stronger than if you have natural immunity only.
> 
> Please educated yourselves and don't play Russian roulette with your health or your lives.



Russian roulette.... A bullet In one of about then thousand chambers... Unless unlucky to a have a congenital comorbidity... or are farking dumb enough to live on nicotine and Maccas?


----------



## bellenuit (8 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Russian roulette.... A bullet In one of about then thousand chambers... Unless unlucky to a have a congenital comorbidity... or are farking dumb enough to live on nicotine and Maccas?




After all this time and after all the statistics put out there, do you not even know that the gun you are given that could cause you to die or have serious injury from the vaccine has more chambers by several orders of magnitude than the gun you are given that could cause you to die or have serious injury from COVID-19.

It seems basic probability is beyond some of you guys.


----------



## wayneL (9 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> After all this time and after all the statistics put out there, do you not even know that the gun you are given that could cause you to die or have serious injury from the vaccine has more chambers by several orders of magnitude than the gun you are given that could cause you to die or have serious injury from COVID-19.
> 
> It seems basic probability is beyond some of you guys.



You see, that is a subjective judgement... and one you feel you must augment via pejorative argumentation.

I am quite happy to take that small risk, considering my good health.

If I'm wrong, obviously I will have to wear that.

On the other hand, there is the risk from the vaccine. I judge that as a greater risk.

I know several people who have had the virus now, thought of which have recovered without any problems.

I now onow several people who have had very severe reactions from the jab... two of which have been in ICU.

Yes, anecdotal, and a small sample size. But it also mirrors all of my close associates across 3 continents.

Therefore, I see that the Russian roulette game is far more loaded against me by taking the vaccine rather than taking my risks as a pureblood.


----------



## bellenuit (9 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> You see, that is a subjective judgement... and one you feel you must augment via pejorative argumentation.
> 
> I am quite happy to take that small risk, considering my good health.
> 
> ...




When the sample size is in the billions, it is no longer subjective. 

And has been said before, no one gives a rats **** whether you want to take on that risk yourself, it is when there is a demand to be a full part of society while taking no protections that is the issue. That is a risk that the rest of us are not willing to allow you to take and why most governments will prevent you from taking. We care about others. You are still holding the delusion that the vaccines do not prevent infection and do not prevent transmission when the evidence is to the contrary.


----------



## wayneL (9 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> When the sample size is in the billions, it is no longer subjective.
> 
> And has been said before, no one gives a rats **** whether you want to take on that risk yourself, it is when there is a demand to be a full part of society while taking no protections that is the issue. That is a risk that the rest of us are not willing to allow you to take and why most governments will prevent you from taking. We care about others. You are still holding the delusion that the vaccines do not prevent infection and do not prevent transmission when the evidence is to the contrary.



The thing is Bella (and as such I assume you are female), the data, in toto, does not support your thesis. (Unless you are cherry picking)

Moreover, I'm not sure why you care.

TBH, I don't care a jot. You life, your choice. My life, my choice.

I support you you if you want the needle. I also support you if you don't want the needle. The outcome is not so different in actual fact (excepting that I believe the risk reward adds up if you have comorbidities)

Go with God, bro. My only concern is medical apartheid.


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> When the sample size is in the billions, it is no longer subjective.
> 
> And has been said before, no one gives a rats **** whether you want to take on that risk yourself, it is when there is a demand to be a full part of society while taking no protections that is the issue. That is a risk that the rest of us are not willing to allow you to take and why most governments will prevent you from taking. We care about others. You are still holding the delusion that the vaccines do not prevent infection and do not prevent transmission when the evidence is to the contrary.



I must admit reading that, comes over as very creepy and cult like.
A bit 1950's Alfred Hitchcock, when the loonie professor is enticing the victim into the government test laboratory. 🤣

"No one gives a rats **** whether you want to take on that risk yourself, it is when there is a demand to be a full part of society while taking no protections that is the issue."

 " That is a risk that the rest of us are not willing to allow you to take and why most governments will prevent you from taking. We care about others. You are still holding the delusion that the vaccines do not prevent infection and do not prevent transmission when the evidence is to the contrary".


----------



## bellenuit (9 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> The thing is Bella (and as such I assume you are female), the data, in toto, does not support your thesis.




Yes it does, unless you are using some weird antivax sites as your source or data from some unrepresentative samples. Almost every government body in the world has come to the same conclusion from the data they have collected. The vaccines work. You are more likely to be hospitalised or die if you are not vaccinated and catch covid.



wayneL said:


> Moreover, I'm not sure why you care. TBH, I don't care a jot. You life, your choice. My life, my choice.




Wow. You are not sure why I care. I actually explained it to you a dozen times and you still don't get it. I even explained it in the post that you are responding to. Unvaccinated people are more likely to be infected with Covid. Unvaccinated people are more likely to transmit covid if infected. It is not just your life, it is other people's lives. Those that can't get vaccinated for certain medical reasons. Those that are too young to be vaccinated. Those that are vaccinated but have compromised immune systems. They are  vulnerable and need others to keep them protected. Then there are those who cannot get medical care for other issues because hospitals are full of unvaccinated Covid patients. You know - it was a huge issue from day 1 - we must flatten the curve.

But you have said everything that is to know about you. You _don't care a jot_.


----------



## bellenuit (9 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I must admit reading that, comes over as very creepy and cult like.
> A bit 1950's Alfred Hitchcock, when the loonie professor is enticing the victim into the government test laboratory. 🤣
> 
> "No one gives a rats **** whether you want to take on that risk yourself, it is when there is a demand to be a full part of society while taking no protections that is the issue."
> ...




It's not that this is something new. Society has imposed limits on others for the good of the majority for lots of things. Drink driving, smoking in cars with kids, having infectious diseases - oh yeah - there have been restrictions and demands made on those having infectious diseases  for quiet a long time now. Have we all forgotten. It wasn't creepy and cult like before. It isn't any more creepy and cult like now just because social media has given voice to a lot of ignorant people who don't care a jot about others.


----------



## wayneL (9 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> You _don't care a jot_.



LMAO. This is he overarching message you keep tripping over yourself to arrive at..

Think about that, Bello/Bella ( both unlikely descriptors and especially for your mental state). 

What position would you have taken in society if you lived in... Let's say.... 1938 in Germany?


----------



## moXJO (9 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> It's not that this is something new. Society has imposed limits on others for the good of the majority for lots of things. Drink driving, smoking in cars with kids, having infectious diseases - oh yeah - there have been restrictions and demands made on those having infectious diseases  for quiet a long time now. Have we all forgotten. It wasn't creepy and cult like before. It isn't any more creepy and cult like now just because social media has given voice to a lot of ignorant people who don't care a jot about others.



It's 2.6% chance of picking it up if vaccinated. Thats according to an Israel study of hospital workers on the front line.
So not exactly a barking point if that's the round about.

I think (and don't quote me) that you are 9 times more likely to catch it and 11 times more likely to die if unvaccinated.


----------



## rederob (9 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> It's 2.6% chance of picking it up if vaccinated. Thats according to an Israel study of hospital workers on the front line.
> So not exactly a barking point if that's the round about.



The problem that @wayneL has is that he just doesn't seem to believe global data over his anecdotal experience which is just a replication of the allegory of the cave.
The chance of getting covid unvaccinated is at least an order of magnitude higher, but the difference is that *all *the frontline hospital workers were many times exposed to covid, whereas this is not the case in the community.  


moXJO said:


> I think (and don't quote me) that you are 9 times more likely to catch it and 11 times more likely to die if unvaccinated.



Yes, rates vary country to country and across age groups.  However apart from quantifiable deaths the biggest problem of covid from the outset has been hospitalisations.  Data shows that those vaccinated are less likely to get infected, and of this group fewer are likely to need hospitalisation, and of this cohort  their symptoms are milder and fewer again end up in ICU.  So at each step of the possible worst path of a covid sufferer the journey is less dangerous.

Of the few things that authorities seem clumsy about is the role of a previous infection acting as equivalent to vaccination.  Available data suggests it's not necessary to be further vaccinated so the *vaccine passport* is flawed as it should be based on measurable antibody response irrespective of pathway.  The Indian experience seems to validate this idea.


----------



## IFocus (9 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> It's 2.6% chance of picking it up if vaccinated. Thats according to an Israel study of hospital workers on the front line.
> So not exactly a barking point if that's the round about.
> 
> I think (and don't quote me) that you are 9 times more likely to catch it and 11 times more likely to die if unvaccinated.





If unvaccinated about 10% go to hospital of those that test positive the death rate is reasonable low but the unvaccinated clogging up the hospital systems delaying other life saving treatments and putting front line medical care workers (super heroes) lives at risk seems to be the bit that doesn't concern some.


----------



## DB008 (9 December 2021)

*Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce tests positive for COVID-19 *​
He said he had felt tired and pain in his legs, but that the illness was so mild he was uncertain whether he was even sick.​
"I don't feel that bad, that's the crazy thing," Mr Joyce told Sky.​









						Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce tests positive for COVID-19 in US
					

Deputy Prime Minister and Nationals Leader Barnaby Joyce has tested positive for COVID-19 after arriving in the United States.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> If unvaccinated about 10% go to hospital of those that test positive the death rate is reasonable low but the unvaccinated clogging up the hospital systems delaying other life saving treatments and putting front line medical care workers (super heroes) lives at risk seems to be the bit that doesn't concern some.



On the subject of clogged up hospitals, I would love to know what is clogging up the W.A ones, as we don't have a covid issue, but still have clogged hospitals.


----------



## Belli (9 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> On the subject of clogged up hospitals, I would love to know what is clogging up the W.A ones, as we don't have a covid issue, but still have clogged hospitals.




Start here.  It holds a clue across all jurisdictions.  Essentially it's about money for infrastructure and employing health staff.  You could build a 500 bed acute care teaching hospital (it costs about $1m per bed by the way) but if I haven't got the staff and the funds to pay them it'll sit empty.









						Spending on hospitals - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare
					

Spending on hospitals page on the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare website




					www.aihw.gov.au


----------



## wayneL (9 December 2021)

Art imitates life.


----------



## IFocus (10 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Start here.  It holds a clue across all jurisdictions.  Essentially it's about money for infrastructure and employing health staff.  You could build a 500 bed acute care teaching hospital (it costs about $1m per bed by the way) but if I haven't got the staff and the funds to pay them it'll sit empty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Think I mentioned to SP before an insider told me WA has the space to put beds (which surprised me) but not the staff money was allocated in the budget for an extra 1000 nurses (training will take time) but I guess they will also need specialists and doctors  COVID has been an issue for WA gov with the restrictions hampering overseas employment.

I was in a hospital today dropping off and picking up, huge amount of the nurses were from overseas who I was told were fantastic.

BTW Belli that's a fair wack of money eh.


----------



## moXJO (10 December 2021)

Didn't everywhere just fire a bunch of teachers and nurses for being unvaccinated and now hospitals and schools are complaining of no staff?


----------



## over9k (10 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Didn't everywhere just fire a bunch of teachers and nurses for being unvaccinated and now hospitals and schools are complaining of no staff?



Yep, I mentioned this in the "economic consequences" thread - the democrats are in a real bind as all the people who do the stuff that actually keeps society functioning have given them the middle finger. 

It's been a giant game of chicken and the plebs have stood their ground so now the democrats have no idea what to do and the republicans are making huge political hay out of it. 

It's kind of absurd just how much the democrats have f**ked this up really as the fact that they're "mandated" is 3/4 of the reason why people aren't taking them. The second they mandated them is the second hundreds of thousands of people said they won't take them just on principle. 

They would have actually gotten more people vaccinated if they DIDN'T mandate them. 


Justin trudeau meanwhile has doubled down on it all and is now trying to jail people for not taking it.


----------



## wayneL (10 December 2021)

over9k said:


> Yep, I mentioned this in the "economic consequences" thread - the democrats are in a real bind as all the people who do the stuff that actually keeps society functioning have given them the middle finger.
> 
> It's been a giant game of chicken and the plebs have stood their ground so now the democrats have no idea what to do and the republicans are making huge political hay out of it.
> 
> ...



There is a reason this book has sold out. And I think there is worse yet to come... Much worse. 

The choice is to be either a sheeple or to pick a hill to die on.









						The Fourth Turning
					

Booktopia has The Fourth Turning, An American Prophecy: What the Cycles of History Tell Us About America's Next Rendezvous with Destiny by Neil Howe. Buy a discounted Paperback of The Fourth Turning online from Australia's leading online bookstore.




					www.booktopia.com.au


----------



## moXJO (10 December 2021)

over9k said:


> Yep, I mentioned this in the "economic consequences" thread - the democrats are in a real bind as all the people who do the stuff that actually keeps society functioning have given them the middle finger.
> 
> It's been a giant game of chicken and the plebs have stood their ground so now the democrats have no idea what to do and the republicans are making huge political hay out of it.
> 
> ...



It's moving into some strange (totalitarian) territory.


----------



## over9k (10 December 2021)

The problem is that there's so many SJW's that actually genuinely agree with trudeau that whatever happens will not be plebs vs elites but rather plebs vs useful idiots who are inadvertently helping all the elites plebs. 

I don't know what's going to happen but it's also abundantly clear that things are not getting better as time goes on. Whether the idiots will ever admit that they've been had (probably not) is another question.


----------



## IFocus (10 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Didn't everywhere just fire a bunch of teachers and nurses for being unvaccinated and now hospitals and schools are complaining of no staff?





WA had major shortages long before the mandate stuff even though the number here are a small percentage it wont help I think there is possibly a bigger problem in mining a lot of underground guys I talk to seem up in arms about it but when push comes to shove doubt these guys will walk from $200k plus.


----------



## wayneL (10 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> ...doubt these guys will walk from $200k plus.



Well there is a chronic undersupply in my trade... And you can even go home to mrs every night, no fifo.

I've just increased my prices 25% and I still have nearly 100 messages that I haven't managed to answer yet.

Mind you you need a set of cajonies and there is a pain barrier you have to work through (which explains the undersupply)


----------



## Belli (10 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> BTW Belli that's a fair wack of money eh.




It is but the issue is still fundamentally funding.  When I was involved in the numbers (many years ago I might add) approximately 70%+ of the cost was staffing (15% consumables, 15% power, etc) and I understand that ratio hasn't changed very much at all.  As always, hospitals are not allocated an unlimited amount of funds.  Normal situation of the demand being infinite but the resources are not.  So the head honchos are always balancing the money v staff numbers.

Again AIHW on the numbers in the health professions (to 2018.)  While the increases may seem large it isn't when demand for health is considered.  Staffing turn over is bloody high in some areas too which tends to crash efficiency.









						Health workforce - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare
					

The health workforce in Australia is large and diverse, covering many occupations. These include health practitioners registered by the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency (AHPRA) as...




					www.aihw.gov.au


----------



## moXJO (10 December 2021)

over9k said:


> The problem is that there's so many SJW's that actually genuinely agree with trudeau that whatever happens will not be plebs vs elites but rather plebs vs useful idiots who are inadvertently helping all the elites plebs.
> 
> I don't know what's going to happen but it's also abundantly clear that things are not getting better as time goes on. Whether the idiots will ever admit that they've been had (probably not) is another question.



You can see how Hitler or Stalin got popular. Find an enemy to blame it on, which seems to currently be the unvaccinated. Have "educated" idiots spout support over social media.

Trudeau is such a sht stain. But Canada ate it up.


----------



## over9k (10 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> You can see how Hitler or Stalin got popular. Find an enemy to blame it on, which seems to currently be the unvaccinated. Have "educated" idiots spout support over social media.
> 
> Trudeau is such a sht stain. But Canada ate it up.



Talking to the normal canadians, apparently the "conservatives" in canada are beyond awful. Like, indescribably so. Like the tories in the U.K. 

So it's terrible vs mental and mental won.


----------



## wayneL (10 December 2021)

over9k said:


> Talking to the normal canadians, apparently the "conservatives" in canada are beyond awful. Like, indescribably so. Like the tories in the U.K.
> 
> So it's terrible vs mental and mental won.



In what way other conservatives terrible?


----------



## over9k (10 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> In what way other conservatives terrible?



They're 9/10ths SJW's but top that last 10% up with corruption, regulatory stacking of the deck for real estate developers, cuts in workplace standards of both safety and pay, would burn a state library to the ground and sell their own children into slavery if doing so would make them $12, so on and so forth.

Essentially joe hockey in party form.


----------



## IFocus (10 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well there is a chronic undersupply in my trade... And you can even go home to mrs every night, no fifo.
> 
> I've just increased my prices 25% and I still have nearly 100 messages that I haven't managed to answer yet.
> 
> Mind you you need a set of cajonies and there is a pain barrier you have to work through (which explains the undersupply)




Yeah used to watch farriers at family's farm made a mental  at the time clever skilful craft but worked far to hard for me.


----------



## IFocus (10 December 2021)

Belli said:


> It is but the issue is still fundamentally funding.  When I was involved in the numbers (many years ago I might add) approximately 70%+ of the cost was staffing (15% consumables, 15% power, etc) and I understand that ratio hasn't changed very much at all.  As always, hospitals are not allocated an unlimited amount of funds.  Normal situation of the demand being infinite but the resources are not.  So the head honchos are always balancing the money v staff numbers.
> 
> Again AIHW on the numbers in the health professions (to 2018.)  While the increases may seem large it isn't when demand for health is considered.  Staffing turn over is bloody high in some areas too which tends to crash efficiency.
> 
> ...




Turn over kills skill levels also any time I visit hospitals staff no matter who all seem under pressure and not enough of them.


----------



## moXJO (10 December 2021)

over9k said:


> Talking to the normal canadians, apparently the "conservatives" in canada are beyond awful. Like, indescribably so. Like the tories in the U.K.
> 
> So it's terrible vs mental and mental won.



Does it scare you that this is probably where we end up


----------



## moXJO (10 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> WA had major shortages long before the mandate stuff even though the number here are a small percentage it wont help I think there is possibly a bigger problem in mining a lot of underground guys I talk to seem up in arms about it but when push comes to shove doubt these guys will walk from $200k plus.



Yeah I don't get the angst if you work underground. Of all the things you are going to die from vaccines are way down the bottom of the list.


----------



## bellenuit (11 December 2021)

Report from Michigan....

Michigan hospitals in crisis with record number of COVID-19 patients: "We don’t have room for furniture anymore."​








						Michigan hospitals in crisis with record number of COVID-19 patients: "We don’t have room for furniture anymore."
					

Doctors say the surge in COVID-19 patients is being driven by the unvaccinated, and increasingly affects all types of care.




					www.michiganradio.org
				




_Medical experts warn that the 44% of people in Michigan who remain unvaccinated are putting not only themselves at risk, but increasingly, their entire community.

In recent weeks, as the number of coronavirus patients spiked, hospitals began publishing updates on how many of those patients had been vaccinated. At Spectrum Health in West Michigan earlier this week, 86% of people hospitalized with COVID were unvaccinated, according to the hospital system. At Henry Ford Health System, in Southeast Michigan, 78% of COVID inpatients were unvaccinated. At Bronson Healthcare, in Southwest Michigan, the number is at 59% as of Wednesday.

Doctors have pleaded with increasing urgency for anyone who hesitated before t*o get the shot now, if not for themselves, then to help lessen the onslaught of patients crowding hospitals. *

“I want to stress that this is a health care capacity crisis, not just a COVID crisis,” said Dr. Scott Gibson, an emergency department physician at Bronson’s Kalamazoo hospital during a briefing yesterday that was streamed online by WWMT-TV._


----------



## bellenuit (11 December 2021)

Long covid is destroying careers, leaving economic distress in its wake​


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/12/09/long-covid-work-unemployed/?utm_source=reddit.com
		


_Hard data is not available and estimates vary widely, but based on published studies and their own experience treating patients, several medical specialists said 750,000 to 1.3 million patients likely remain so sick for extended periods that they can’t return to the workforce full time._


----------



## over9k (11 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Does it scare you that this is probably where we end up



Depresses me more than anything. 

To be honest, I'm quite looking forward to the boogaloo. Whenever I hear some vegan cyclist soyboy male feminist arts degree cuck come out with some hilarity like "I only punch nazi's because it isn't legal to publicly execute them yet" all I do (aside from laugh) is think "don't threaten me with a good time".


----------



## macca (11 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Long covid is destroying careers, leaving economic distress in its wake​
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/12/09/long-covid-work-unemployed/?utm_source=reddit.com
> ...



It is a pity they don't live in Utter Pradesh in India,

Population of over 200m people, total 280 new cases in the past month, total of 8 deaths in the past month, vaccinated less than 30%.

Obviously, cutting edge medicine is now based in Asia


----------



## bellenuit (11 December 2021)

macca said:


> It is a pity they don't live in Utter Pradesh in India,




Yes, for them it may be a pity. It may also be a pity for them that they don't live in Perth or lots of other places. But the fact is that long covid is a serious issue for many who catch covid.


----------



## wayneL (11 December 2021)

Yeah, do as we say, sheeple.


----------



## macca (11 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Yes, for them it may be a pity. It may also be a pity for them that they don't live in Perth or lots of other places. But the fact is that long covid is a serious issue for many who catch covid.




The problem is no early intervention, in Utter Pradesh when you test positive you given a pack of meds and supps to use at home.

The whole family is also supplied with treatment to stop the spread

In western countries you are sent home with the instruction to suck it and see, coughing up blood is considered "acceptable"

Kind of like "gee, you have high blood pressure, just ignore it, when you have a stroke give us a ring"

We ain't never going to beat Covid until we actually treat it early while still incubating in the sinus, mouth and throat


----------



## Belli (12 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Turn over kills skill levels also any time I visit hospitals staff no matter who all seem under pressure and not enough of them.




Yep,  and when the number of 1.8 Full-time Equivalent (as not all work full-time) per 100,000 population for nursing are considered  not all of them work in hospitals or major Metropolitan areas.  Brings the available numbers down for hospital staffing.  As well there could still be a number (probably not many) who are still registered but not working at all.

Been a vexed issue for many years.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Yeah, do as we say, sheeple.



These right wing neo nazi's need to be stamped out.









						After tackling WA's worst emergencies, Nathan quit to fight the state's vaccine mandate instead
					

Former SES and firefighting volunteer Nathan Foster chose to hang up his boots over the WA government's mandatory COVID jab policy, with emergency services now waiting to see how many more will join him.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (14 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> These right wing neo nazi's need to be stamped out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe "refusenik" is the new word from the politburo.









						Refusenik - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## wayneL (14 December 2021)

Coming to a town near you:


----------



## IFocus (14 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> These right wing neo nazi's need to be stamped out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Been talking to more mining guys plenty up in arms re mandate and pulling the pin, work these days for bigger company's is pretty draconian (no unions) tow the line or get shot the mandate is just the final straw in many of the cases if you dig deeper.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Been talking to more mining guys plenty up in arms re mandate and pulling the pin, work these days for bigger company's is pretty draconian (no unions) tow the line or get shot the mandate is just the final straw in many of the cases if you dig deeper.



There is tons of work around, probably just an excuse to change the fifo situation, for a lot. 
My kids have all had their first shot, now that a border opening date has been set.


----------



## basilio (14 December 2021)

Looks like NSW will see what Omicron can do with a full head of steam.  The pressure on COVID test sites in Newcastle is now overwhelming the staff. Given the  location of the people already identified the spread of the infection is guaranteed.

Newcastle Argyle House nightclub COVID outbreak could become one of the 'highest-transmission events' in the world​ABC Newcastle
 / By Carly Cook and Madeline Lewis
Posted 1h ago1 hours ago, updated 3m ago3 minutes ago





 The Argyle House nightclub cluster has continued to rise, with more than 100 new cases recorded for Newcastle overnight.(ABC Newcastle: Bindi Bryce)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article


A Hunter public health controller is predicting a 1970s-themed prom night at a Newcastle nightclub could become one of the highest COVID-19 transmission events in the world.
Key points:​
COVID cases soar in nightclub cluster, with more than 200 recorded in the health district today
Health officials say it could become one of the biggest super spreader events in the world
Many of the cases are likely to be the new Omicron variant
More than 100 new cases were recorded across Newcastle today, as numbers in the city rapidly rise after the event at Argyle House last Wednesday.

Health officials said of the 650 people checked into the event, 150 people have so far tested positive to COVID-19, most likely with the new Omicron variant.

In the 24 hours to 8pm last night, the Hunter New England health district recorded 224 new cases of coronavirus.
*Of the new cases, 216 are from the Hunter alone, with 116 from Newcastle, 48 from Lake Macquarie, 28 from Maitland, 11 from Port Stephens, seven from Cessnock, five from Singleton and one from Dungog.









						Newcastle COVID outbreak could become one of 'highest-transmission events' in the world this year
					

The Argyle House nightclub COVID-19 cluster has grown to 150, after 650 people checked into an event there last Wednesday.




					www.abc.net.au
				



*


----------



## IFocus (14 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There is tons of work around, probably just an excuse to change the fifo situation, for a lot.
> My kids have all had their first shot, now that a border opening date has been set.




Yes also some big opportunities for some, mates son-in-law just moved mines for an extra $40k so the whole thing could raise salary's as a consequence.


----------



## moXJO (14 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Looks like NSW will see what Omicron can do with a full head of steam.  The pressure on COVID test sites in Newcastle is now overwhelming the staff. Given the  location of the people already identified the spread of the infection is guaranteed.
> 
> Newcastle Argyle House nightclub COVID outbreak could become one of the 'highest-transmission events' in the world​ABC Newcastle
> / By Carly Cook and Madeline Lewis
> ...



Omicron is still being reported as mild.
Looks like the vaccinated are the super spreaders of this variant. Young (under 40) and vaccinated  to be exact. So the angst against the antivaxxers giving it to you proved to be bunk up to now.

Allegedly the symptoms  are only slightly more severe if unvaccinated. But it's super easy to catch. Symptoms seem to be mild. Mixed reports of symptoms- as mild as a cold to that of a strong flu. Talks of getting a third shot to yearly shots. No thanks

No masks tomorrow in nsw  thank fck. 

My guess is they will try to crowd out delta with Omicron by letting it rip.


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Yes also some big opportunities for some, mates son-in-law just moved mines for an extra $40k so the whole thing could raise salary's as a consequence.



Yes my son has been getting pay rises, without asking for them, they seem keen to hang on to quality workers, or they have heard of his father the legend. 🤣


----------



## macca (14 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Omicron is still being reported as mild.
> Looks like the vaccinated are the super spreaders of this variant. Young (under 40) and vaccinated  to be exact. So the angst against the antivaxxers giving it to you proved to be bunk up to now.
> 
> Allegedly the symptoms  are only slightly more severe if unvaccinated. But it's super easy to catch. Symptoms seem to be mild. Mixed reports of symptoms- as mild as a cold to that of a strong flu. Talks of getting a third shot to yearly shots. No thanks
> ...




perhaps the powers that be are sick of copping flak and have decided that Ok let us see what happens.

Given the Vax mania they really have painted themselves into a corner, either it works or they are fools, so let the people decide.

SA Docs are still reporting mild symptoms for healthy people with Omicron so I guess we wait and see.

We will go out but not to crowded places, I prefer a quiet lunch somewhere anyway


----------



## moXJO (14 December 2021)

macca said:


> perhaps the powers that be are sick of copping flak and have decided that Ok let us see what happens.
> 
> Given the Vax mania they really have painted themselves into a corner, either it works or they are fools, so let the people decide.
> 
> ...



I think it was always wait till a weaker virus took over. Sars and mers were deadlier but weakened over mutations. 

Covid 19 was a very big risk. It lessened with delta. And now omicron will probably be allowed to outpace delta. 

Realistically the authorities had it about right originally. Then they went stupid with it and affected to many people with idiot authoritarian measures.

The hardliners now are just political.


----------



## IFocus (14 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes my son has been getting pay rises, without asking for them, they seem keen to hang on to quality workers, *or they have heard of his father the legend.* 🤣




Obviously    👍


----------



## IFocus (14 December 2021)

macca said:


> perhaps the powers that be are sick of copping flak and have decided that Ok let us see what happens.
> 
> Given the Vax mania they really have painted themselves into a corner, either it works or they are fools, so let the people decide.
> 
> ...




Take care Macca not quite out of the woods yet


----------



## wayneL (15 December 2021)

The Idiocracy is here


----------



## wayneL (15 December 2021)

Speaking of the Idiocracy:


----------



## bellenuit (15 December 2021)

Another US State's hospital system overwhelmed.









						MN hospitals: ‘We’re heartbroken. We’re overwhelmed.’
					

COVID-besieged medical systems take out full-page newspaper ads pleading with Minnesotans to get vaccinated, mask up.




					www.twincities.com
				




_The ad went on to ask: “How can we as a society stand by and watch people die when a simple shot could prevent a life-threatening illness? Your health care is being seriously threatened by COVID19. We need to stop the spread!”

The ad urged Minnesotans to get vaccinated, including booster doses; wear a mask (even if vaccinated) and socially distance; get tested if feeling sick; and encourage “neighbors and loved ones” to do the same._


----------



## mullokintyre (15 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> The Idiocracy is here




Great Movie that, my kids still talk about needing the electrolytes and not drinking toilet water.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (15 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Another US State's hospital system overwhelmed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minnesota is 64% vaccinated.


----------



## bellenuit (15 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Minnesota is 64% vaccinated.




Too low for Delta.


----------



## moXJO (15 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Too low for Delta.



Yeah needs to be higher for delta. Hence the hospitalisations. 

Australia is running at 94ish% in nsw. We seem to be the other end of the scale of over panic.


----------



## Joules MM1 (15 December 2021)

the pill

NY Times:


> Pfizer says its pill works against Omicron
> 
> A highly anticipated study of Pfizer’s Covid pill confirmed that it helps
> stave off severe disease, the company said. The pill also performed well
> ...


----------



## macca (15 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Take care Macca not quite out of the woods yet




I agree, been shopping this morning, about 50/50 still wearing masks (nsw).

I did the usual clean up when I got home and then hit the "early intervention protocol" which I intend to continue indefinitely


----------



## macca (15 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Speaking of the Idiocracy:
> 
> View attachment 134282




Obesity, metabolic syndrome, diabetes 2 and Omega 6 foods are Exceedingly bad comorbidities OS.

Of course, here in Oz no one would know that because our Medicos are F'ing hopeless


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2021)

macca said:


> I agree, been shopping this morning, about 50/50 still wearing masks (nsw).
> 
> I did the usual clean up when I got home and then hit the "early intervention protocol" which I intend to continue indefinitely



What's the early intervention protocol Macca?


----------



## macca (15 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Too low for D






sptrawler said:


> What's the early intervention protocol Macca?




I have a few things that are available over the counter that research shows will help me if/when the bogey man arrives.

PM if you would like a list


----------



## Belli (15 December 2021)

macca said:


> Of course, here in Oz no one would know that because our Medicos are F'ing hopeless




Better let them know in that case as this list is probably not based on the advice of those "useless" medicos.









						Advice for groups at greater risk
					

There are a range of factors that increase your risk of serious illness. These include age, existing health conditions, disability and your background. Find out more about the factors and what you can do to minimise your risk.




					www.health.gov.au
				




You are at greater risk of severe illness from COVID-19 if you are unvaccinated and are:

are 70 years of age or over
solid organ transplant recipients who are on immune suppressive therapy
bone marrow transplant recipients
are on immune suppressive therapy for graft versus host disease
blood cancer eg leukaemia, lymphoma or myelodysplastic syndrome
non-haematological cancer diagnosed within the past 5 years or on chemotherapy, radiotherapy, immunotherapy or targeted anti-cancer therapy (active treatment or recently completed) or with advanced disease regardless of treatment
survivors of childhood cancers
chronic inflammatory conditions requiring medical treatments
primary or acquired immunodeficiency
chronic renal (kidney) failure
heart disease (coronary heart disease or failure)
chronic lung disease (excludes mild or moderate asthma)
a non-haematological cancer (diagnosed in the last 12 months)
diabetes
severe obesity with a BMI ≥ 40 kg/m2
chronic liver disease
some neurological conditions (stroke, dementia, other) (speak to your doctor about your risk)
poorly controlled blood pressure (may increase risk – speak to your doctor)
pregnant people
significant disability requiring frequent assistance with activities of daily living
severe mental health conditions.
*Other things that might affect your risk*​
Having 2 or more conditions might increase your risk, regardless of your age. If your condition is severe or poorly controlled, this might also increase your risk of serious illness from COVID-19.

Other factors might also increase your risk of severe illness if you contract COVID-19, including:

age – risk increases as you get older, even for those under 70
being male
poverty
smoking.


----------



## bellenuit (15 December 2021)

Colorado Medical System Near Collapse

As COVID patients pack Colorado hospitals, anger grows against the unvaccinated​




__





						As COVID patients pack Colorado hospitals, anger grows against the unvaccinated
					

In Colorado, there is a backlash from people who can't get into hospitals because they are full of unvaccinated COVID-19 patients. Administrators say facilities "are on the verge of collapse."



					health.wusf.usf.edu
				




_Some residents of Colorado cannot get into a hospital when they need to. That's because the hospital beds are filled with people who chose to go unvaccinated during the pandemic. Patients who need care for other issues have no space. They're speaking out now, as are nurses who report a medical system near collapse._

COVID-19 information (for Colorado)​








						COVID-19 information
					

For COVID-19 / coronavirus recent updates, read more for the most up-to-date news and information available to our patients and visitors in Colorado.




					www.uchealth.org


----------



## macca (15 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Better let them know in that case as this list is probably not based on the advice of those "useless" medicos.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I do agree that this info is available, the long list does cover many obvious health problems which would obviously put that person at risk for any problem at all.

The common cold would knock some of them over.

Really the only two that most people will take on board are Diabetes and Extreme obesity

My point, which I know from experience, you strongly disagree with is that the "Health Officials" are very happy to chant the mantra on the treatment called a vaccine but I have not heard  any of them actually suggest things that people can do to improve their health.

Obesity was identified as a problem very early on, if this had been hammered home at a news conference at least once a week over the past year some folk may have lost 50kgs by now.

Vitamin D is a no brainer, many researchers have been saying "absolutely vital" in the fight against Covid, we had Oz Doctors saying No, we should not allow people to walk in the sun.

Then another idiot Doctor said "remember your sunscreen", doesn't this dill realise that the Oz sun in Victoria in winter  time is quite safe, and how will people increase or even maintain their Vit D if they wear sunscreen.

A family member plays golf 3 days a week and walks an hour every other day, he is Vit D deficient because of sunscreen.

If our Health Officials had been lecturing people to get out in the sun, lose weight, eat natural foods, not processed foods while they had the platform to do so we may well have saved lives.

Every day they stood there looking solemn while the Pollies hogged the camera, then they came on and basically said the same thing as the pollies.

A Golden opportunity wasted to tell people how to improve their health and immunity, this is my complaint, they think like bureaucrats not like Doctors


----------



## bellenuit (15 December 2021)

macca said:


> but I have not heard any of them actually suggest things that people can do to improve their health.




I see it all the time. It is in among my FB newsfeed.  You see it in the newspapers, often whole pull-out sections devoted to health issues. My GP's waiting room is full of posters regarding health issues with links to where one can get more information. My GP will raise and discuss issues that I should be aware of as I age, even though they currently are not issues. Women's magazines in particular devote a lot of space to health issues in among the crap that they also publish. I can't understand how you can suggest this information is not made known to the public. But the fact that the public often ignore it is not a fault of the medical profession. People don't take health seriously until they get a diagnosis that they can no longer ignore. It's the old you can lead a horse to water....

But while I agree that living a healthy lifestyle would help in preventing against infection from COVID and if caught would help one fight the disease, trying to initiate such changes in response to a new fast spreading epidemic is as useless as telling people they should clean their gutters of leaves and cut high grass around their house when a bushfire is already licking at their front door and windows. The required lifestyle changes would require months if not years to show results, but medical and government authorities had only days/weeks to try and curtail the spread of the virus. That's why they introduced the only arsenal they had at their disposal; masks, social distancing and lockdowns. The primary aim was to prevent a complete collapse of the health system due to being overburdened if the virus got out of hand. And that to a large extent was somewhat successful. It also gave time for vaccines to be developed that could prevent the spread of the virus and could mitigate its effects if caught. That too worked to some extent, But a virus, being a virus, can mutate and the mutations present new challenges, which often require the same tools. If the vaccines also help against the mutations then that is a bonus, but in any case the other tools can again keep the medical system from being overwhelmed until new vaccine solutions are found.

But as well as trying to understand this new virus and come up with solutions to prevent it spreading, medical authorities had to fight against a mass of misinformation often originated and perpetuated with the assistance of sovereign entities that did not want them to succeed. This misinformation was gleefully absorbed and redistributed by a myriad of social media warriors who were convinced they knew better (many of whom would have had difficulty graduating primary school). Everything became a conspiracy. Good advice was always dismissed as just MSM lies, while crackpot ideas such as that the vaccines were planting microchips under the skin to control people were treated as worthy of consideration.


----------



## Belli (16 December 2021)

One aspect where caution should be exercised is believing a personal observation is reflective of the actual situation.  Have encountered this a few times such as gents having a coffee, discussing their problems with the good ol' prostate and concluding removal is the only appropriate course of action.  It isn't a control group but a bunch of old dudes having a coffee and complaining about their health issues.


----------



## mullokintyre (16 December 2021)

According to the science write in The Telegraph the Omicron surge may be already waning.
Omicron outbreaks in South African hotspots may be running out of steam less than three weeks after the new variant was identified, data suggests....



> *Data coming out of South Africa indicates that the Omicron outbreak of COVID-19 is already “running out of steam,” and according to one expert, “the world has nothing to fear.”*
> “Cases in the province of Gauteng – which had surging infections from November – appear to be levelling off, while seven-day infections in Tshwane, one of the early epicentres, are now “relatively flat,” states a report written by the Telegraph’s science editor.
> “Case growth is steeper than last week but still has slowed down versus November,” said Louis Rossouw, of the Covid-19 Actuaries Response Group.
> Data also shows that the percentage of people who die from a COVID infection has dropped significantly since the arrival of Omicron.
> ...



The CFR of 0.5 hardly suggests  further increase.
The IFR must be pretty small.
Mick


----------



## rederob (16 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> According to the science write in The Telegraph the Omicron surge may be already waning.
> Omicron outbreaks in South African hotspots may be running out of steam less than three weeks after the new variant was identified, data suggests....
> 
> 
> ...



Zero points for data analysis.
Here's the trend for highly vaccinated UK:





And the latest UK data:


----------



## rederob (16 December 2021)

Again referencing the UK experience from 2020 onwards we see that a plus-75000 case number had never been close, until yesterday:




	

		
			
		

		
	
So whatever we might like to think, the numbers pretty well speak for themselves.
The only issues yet to resolve are case severity and comparative death rates.  To date the news has suggested vaccinations have factored in making these less than for Delta.  But it's still early days!


----------



## wayneL (16 December 2021)

The Idiocracy abideth... State govts trying to outclownworld each other.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> The Idiocracy abideth... State govts trying to outclownworld each other.




Can you imagine it, the cabin crew on the intercom, "right everyone, masks at the ready and in three, two, one, masks on. Thankyou everyone we will inform you when we are out of NSW airspace and masks can be removed".


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

Australia is surging in vaccination rates, this article from early November, so it should be even better by now.









						newsGP - Australia surges past UK, Israel, US in vaccine rollout
					

After a slow start, the latest vaccination figures put Australia in an enviable position in the global efforts to stop the spread of the pandemic.




					www1.racgp.org.au
				



from the article:
After a slow start, the latest vaccination figures put Australia in an enviable position in the global efforts to stop the spread of the pandemic.

A greater proportion of Australia is now fully vaccinated against COVID-19 than in many countries that led the early stages of the global rollout.

This week, the percentage of Australians of any age who have received two vaccine doses overtook the UK for the first time since the vaccines became available, according to the data website CovidBaseAu.

It shows 67.26% of the entire population of any age fully vaccinated in Australia, meaning the country has now nudged past the UK proportion of residents (67.17%) who are fully inoculated.

Figures from Our World in Data also show the rate of fully vaccinated citizens in Australia increasing faster than almost anywhere else at these later stages of the program.


----------



## wayneL (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Can you imagine it, the cabin crew on the intercom, "right everyone, masks at the ready and in three, two, one, masks on. Thankyou everyone we will inform you when we are out of NSW airspace and masks can be removed".



It is just so fkn ridiculous.


----------



## wayneL (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Australia is surging in vaccination rates, this article from early November, so it should be even better by now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Anecdotal....

As everyone can imagine, it is the primary topic of conversation... 

For sure many of my clients are very pro-jab, often militantly so. That's fine but the militant ones can probably expect me to withdraw my services at some point. Indeed, l may also be terminated because of my stance.

That's all good because I have a massive waiting list.

Probably the biggest proportion are those who have only had the injections because they either felt forced or coerced into it, or want to travel. Of these, almost all are pretty pissed off about that.... And so often in couples it is one partner stabbed due to coercion, and the other saying no farken' way.

So the high vaccination rates are not due to voluntary uptake; it is so they can keep paying their mortgages.

Classic example is the client I just came from. The husband is a copper and only took the job because he had to... The wife is a riding school and doesn't want it in the slightest.

They are getting away with this because most people have too much to lose.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

The thing is, people are soon going to get fed up with booster shots every 6months for the rest of their lives, it isn't as though the vaccine is stopping people getting the virus just reducing the symptoms.
In reality those like yourself may only have to have one shot, by the time you have the vaccine, because eventually they have to run out of new strains one would think.


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The thing is, people are soon going to get fed up with booster shots every 6months for the rest of their lives, it isn't as though the vaccine is stopping people getting the virus just reducing the symptoms.
> In reality those like yourself may only have to have one shot, by the time you have the vaccine, because eventually they have to run out of new strains one would think.



Sars and mers was deadlier than Covid-19, by a lot. Eventually it just mutates to something more contagious but not as deadly.

They have scared people so much that we get idiots on twitter who won't go to a business because they stopped using masks (nsw). 
Good chance that the masks that they were using did bugger all in the first place. 
All I can say is "stay inside then"


----------



## wayneL (16 December 2021)

Got yours, ASFers?


----------



## rederob (17 December 2021)

For the geese who flock to the twitterverse, here's a smackdown by Prof. Chris Whitty (UK's experience) to some of the baseless lockdown claims that have abounded:


----------



## mullokintyre (17 December 2021)

Was looking at the latest figures from COVID Live in OZ .
Today in Victoria, there are 1510 cases, 386 in Hospital, 82 in ICU, and 43 on Ventilators.
prior to Omicron, the peaks were  2297 Cases on October 14th, 851 in Hospital on October 18th, 163 in ICU on October 16th and 103 on ventilators on October 18th.


In the NSW case, todays figures are 2213 cases , 215 in hospital, 24 in ICU, and 8 on ventilators.
At its previous peak, NSW had 1603 daily cases on September 11, 1268in hospital on September 21, 242 in ICUon September 22  and 123 on ventilators on September 20th.

The figures show that hospitalisations  , ICU and ventilated patients  have been consistently running at a lower rate than  Victoria.
Don't know why this would be case, but its interesting.

In NSW,  since dec 12 hospitalisations have gone up by 30%, but  both ICU and Ventilated patients have remained stable.

In Victoria, the  Hospitalisation and Icu admissions have gone up, but only a marginal rise in those on ventilators.

Maybe there is a time lag between those going into hospital versus going on ventilators and ICU.
Whatever the reasons, it would seem that whatever the virulency of the current crop of covid, the severity of the illness has dropped off significantly.
Maybe some good news there.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (17 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> But hopefully before the next escapee.  🤣






mullokintyre said:


> Was looking at the latest figures from COVID Live in OZ .
> Today in Victoria, there are 1510 cases, 386 in Hospital, 82 in ICU, and 43 on Ventilators.
> prior to Omicron, the peaks were  2297 Cases on October 14th, 851 in Hospital on October 18th, 163 in ICU on October 16th and 103 on ventilators on October 18th.
> 
> ...





Suspect still 2 to 3 weeks away from getting a clear picture been watching the UK, data still to flow through





__





						Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics
					





					www.ons.gov.uk


----------



## DB008 (17 December 2021)

Maybe we should have let the OG Covid-19 run and build up some form natural immunity.

QLD is going back to masks.


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2021)

Got 3 hours? 

Joe Rogan interviews Dr McCullough and covers every damn thing to do with this thing.


----------



## DB008 (17 December 2021)

Germany

Bad Santa, no mask!




Your browser is not able to display this video.




Police with a ruler, now the Social Distancing police





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## moXJO (17 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Was looking at the latest figures from COVID Live in OZ .
> Today in Victoria, there are 1510 cases, 386 in Hospital, 82 in ICU, and 43 on Ventilators.
> prior to Omicron, the peaks were  2297 Cases on October 14th, 851 in Hospital on October 18th, 163 in ICU on October 16th and 103 on ventilators on October 18th.
> 
> ...



Possibly omicron taking over from delta


----------



## rederob (17 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Got 3 hours?
> 
> Joe Rogan interviews Dr McCullough and covers every damn thing to do with this thing.



Seriously?
This guy is well known for spreading misinformation at every opportunity.
You will learn more watching the Simpsons.


----------



## DB008 (17 December 2021)

Starting to sound like a common theme?


Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce tests positive for COVID-19 in US​​He said he had felt tired and pain in his legs, but that the illness was so mild he was uncertain whether he was even sick.​​"I don't feel that bad, that's the crazy thing," Mr Joyce told Sky.​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12...itive-for-covid-19-in-united-states/100685450​

Barnaby Joyce is 54 years of age. Double vax.


Queensland records 16 new COVID-19 community cases ahead of mask mandate being introduced​​Two of those were recorded in the 24 hours to Friday morning.​
Chief Health Officer John Gerrard said one of those was in Brisbane and the other on the Gold Coast, both have been directly linked to the large Newcastle cluster.​​"Both of these individuals were vaccinated and neither had symptoms," Dr Gerrard said.​​https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12...vid-omicron-mask-mandate-queensland/100706410​
Omricon strain?

If so, let it rip mate.  

No? QLD, 16 cases, time to mask up. I think everyone is so over Covid, it's time to just move on.​


----------



## wayneL (17 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Got 3 hours?
> 
> Joe Rogan interviews Dr McCullough and covers every damn thing to do with this thing.




What does this say to us?


----------



## IFocus (17 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> Omricon strain?
> 
> If so, let it rip mate.
> ​




Still a lot of unknowns like will it knock over those that are getting treatments for cancer, autoimmune diseases, diabetes, heart diseases etc   all which are treatable but where vaccinations are not as effective.

Australia wide suspect the numbers will be significant, with the higher infection rates it will be much harder to protect these people.


----------



## rederob (17 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> What does this say to us?



To the average person it says "dumb and dumber".
Not a lot of good comes from spreading misinformation so pulling the podcast was a good move.


----------



## wayneL (18 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Still a lot of unknowns like will it knock over those that are getting treatments for cancer, autoimmune diseases, diabetes, heart diseases etc   all which are treatable but where vaccinations are not as effective.
> 
> Australia wide suspect the numbers will be significant, with the higher infection rates it will be much harder to protect these people.



Yes it will. Curiously, these are the very people that have been denied appropriate treatment, *because* of covid paranoia.


----------



## DB008 (18 December 2021)

​South Africa Hospitalization Rate Plunges in Omicron Wave - Bloomberg​
South Africa delivered some positive news on the omicron coronavirus variant on Friday, reporting a much lower rate of hospital admissions and signs that the wave of infections may be peaking.​​Only 1.7% of identified Covid-19 cases were admitted to hospital in the second week of infections in the fourth wave, compared with 19% in the same week of the third delta-driven wave, South African Health Minister Joe Phaahla said at a press conference.​​Health officials presented evidence that the strain may be milder, and that infections may already be peaking in the country’s most populous province, Gauteng.​​Scientists have cautioned that other nations may have a different experience to South Africa as the country’s population is young compared with developed nations. Between 70% and 80% of citizens may also have had a prior Covid-19 infection, according to antibody surveys, meaning they could have some level of protection.​
“We have seen a decrease in a proportion of people who need to be on oxygen,” Jassat said at the press conference. “They are at very low levels.”​
South Africa Hospitalization Rate Plunges in Omicron Wave


.​


----------



## Belli (18 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> South Africa delivered some positive news on the omicron coronavirus variant on Friday, reporting a much lower rate of hospital admissions and signs that the wave of infections may be peaking.





Could be early days depending on the data.

"There are many other unknowns. There are very little data on the severity of disease due to Omicron. There are some indications that hospitalisation rates are lower with Omicron than with other variants, and for those who are hospitalised, the length of hospital stay is shorter. *Our South African colleagues have told us that many people who were reported as being hospitalised were actually admitted for other reasons and incidentally diagnosed with COVID*."









						There are risks in bringing forward boosters; we need to play the long game
					

The decision to stay firm on a five-month interval for boosters is based on sound reasoning.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## rederob (18 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Could be early days depending on the data.



The data are so far consistent with findings I posted in the "vaccination" thread and as reported in more detail here.
That is, a prior covid infection and a subsequent vaccination confers the highest level of immunity, followed by double vaxxing.
WRT hospitalisations, London's experience may be the way we are heading given similar high rates of double vaxxed:


----------



## Belli (18 December 2021)

rederob said:


> WRT hospitalisations, London's experience may be the way we are heading given similar high rates of double vaxxed




Not a chart to lift my heart.  Obviously 3% of 6,000 as opposed to 3% of 1,000 results in a larger number of admissions with potential for ICU requirements and deaths.  Coming up against capacity issues.

And there is the demographic/health profile of each country which can change the numbers yet again.

We live in thrilling times.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2021)

There's one death so far.


----------



## Belli (18 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> There's one death so far.




Yeah, let's hope it stays low. 

Amazing this variant was identified only about a month ago but the spread has been so rapid.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Yeah, let's hope it stays low.
> 
> Amazing this variant was identified only about a month ago but the spread has been so rapid.



There's always a worry of any long term symptoms or it staying in your system. We won't know for a while yet.
At the moment it's looking like a bad cold. 
However "Covid Mania" seems to be keeping a large group of people mentally captive. 


Pluses are that it should crowd out other varients extremely fast.


----------



## Belli (18 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Pluses are that it should crowd out other varients extremely fast.




That may be the case presently.  However, there is an view which goes beyond that aspect.









						New COVID variants have changed the game, and vaccines will not be enough. We need global 'maximum suppression'
					

COVID-19 variants of concern have changed the game. We need to recognise and act on this to avoid future waves of infections, yet more lockdowns and restrictions, and avoidable illness and death.




					theconversation.com


----------



## DB008 (18 December 2021)

One of the guys l work with, his daughter (in Victoria) just got Covid-19. She says it's like a mild cold. That's it. She is double vaxxed, under 40.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2021)

Belli said:


> That may be the case presently.  However, there is an view which goes beyond that aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is what I would class as "Covid Mania".
Health authorities spruiking for some kind of 'medical apartheid'. Locking everything down is simply not going to be feasible.

Obviously reasonable steeps need to be taken ( as was stated in article) along with early warning systems and funding for studies. But the world locked down for two years and it failed. Vaccinations didn't slow the spread. In fact vaccine passports probably spread it faster.

While viruses can mutate to become worse, more often then not it's all about becoming more infection and less about killing the host.
Sars, mers and others were a lot more deadly. They mutated and became a yearly event.
Yes, covid is a possibility of becoming worse. However it is so far less deadly with the strains that have crowded out the last.

There's a large amount of fear mongering and misinformation going on in the media (and social media) that swings both ways. Even so called "medical authorities" seem to partake.

My major concern is the overall health of society as of now (and not just medical). Between mental, social cohesion, education and economic. I think the effects will shape the next few decades.


----------



## Belli (18 December 2021)

Very absorbing contorted thinking there.


----------



## DB008 (18 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Very absorbing contorted thinking there.




How so?

QLD (and NSW & VIC) have had 2 years to build new hospitals or specialised medical facilities and invest more in health for this Covid onslaught.

What have they done?

Not much.

QLD started building 2 quarantine camps (in Pinkenba and Toowoomba). Maybe purchased a few more ventilators. Thats it. Palaszczuk has been very lucky and omricon is coming right now. Instead of building quarantine camps, she should have invested more in public health.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Very absorbing contorted thinking there.



Pick it apart.
Debate is fine.....


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2021)

Whatever the official stats are in NSW, reality is likely 5x-10x that. 
Lucky if I saw 5% of people wearing masks. No sign in anywhere. 
People crowding.
It's pretty much life back to normal.

So obviously omicron will be allowed to rip through. Let's see if it's the wrong or right thinking in a month.


----------



## Belli (19 December 2021)

Clever.  The thinking required in this and many other concepts is at another level altogether.

Imperial’s COVID-19 Response Team have developed a new tool to assess the threat of new variants in real-time.









						Imperial COVID-19 Response Team share new tool to assess threat of new variants | Imperial News | Imperial College London
					

Imperial’s COVID-19 Response Team have developed a new tool to assess the threat of new variants in real-time.




					www.imperial.ac.uk


----------



## DB008 (19 December 2021)

I don't know which thread to put this in.

Covid-19 or the conspiracy thread....






Sweden-based Epicenter proudly presents an implanted chip that can "conveniently" hold your vaccination status "always accessible."







Your browser is not able to display this video.








.​


----------



## rederob (19 December 2021)

Kind of good news:




Given that South Africa had a lead on other countries in terms of Omicron, death rated have so far remained low by comparison with previous variants.
The bad news is that if Australia goes like London in terms of infection rate, then it will look like this:


----------



## moXJO (19 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Kind of good news:
> View attachment 134547
> 
> Given that South Africa had a lead on other countries in terms of Omicron, death rated have so far remained low by comparison with previous variants.
> The bad news is that if Australia goes like London in terms of infection rate, then it will look like this:




Are they admitted from omicron or a mix of delta/omicron?


----------



## rederob (19 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Are they admitted from omicron or a mix of delta/omicron?



The chart is colour coded, so you can work it out.


----------



## moXJO (19 December 2021)

rederob said:


> The chart is colour coded, so you can work it out.



Sorry must have deleted half the post.
Did they identify omicron as the cause of fatalities?
Where did this chart link from?


----------



## rederob (19 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Sorry must have deleted half the post.
> Did they identify omicron as the cause of fatalities?
> Where did this chart link from?



The detailed data are found *here*.
An excellent read, however, is from Fraser Nelson at *The Spectator*, which uses snippets.
On the basis of what's known to date, if you are double vaxxed or previously infected, then severe illness/ hospitalisation is a low probability, and death may be as low as a  tenth of what it was under Delta, depending on age.


----------



## mullokintyre (20 December 2021)

Hot on the heels of Facebook adfmitting in court documents that its Fact Checking is nothing but opinion,  it has copped a broadside from the  British Medical Journal about its "factChecking" of BMJ articles.
I guess its another case of the US multinationals sticking together.

From WUWT



> Open letter from The BMJ to Mark ZuckerbergDear Mark Zuckerberg,We are Fiona Godlee and Kamran Abbasi, editors of The BMJ, one of the world’s oldest and most influential general medical journals. We are writing to raise serious concerns about the “fact checking” being undertaken by third party providers on behalf of Facebook/Meta.In September, a former employee of Ventavia, a contract research company helping carry out the main Pfizer covid-19 vaccine trial, began providing The BMJ with dozens of internal company documents, photos, audio recordings, and emails. These materials revealed a host of poor clinical trial research practices occurring at Ventavia that could impact data integrity and patient safety. We also discovered that, despite receiving a direct complaint about these problems over a year ago, the FDA did not inspect Ventavia’s trial sites.The BMJ commissioned an investigative reporter to write up the story for our journal. The article was published on 2 November, following legal review, external peer review and subject to The BMJ’s usual high level editorial oversight and review.[1]But from November 10, readers began reporting a variety of problems when trying to share our article. Some reported being unable to share it. Many others reported having their posts flagged with a warning about “Missing context … Independent fact-checkers say this information could mislead people.” Those trying to post the article were informed by Facebook that people who repeatedly share “false information” might have their posts moved lower in Facebook’s News Feed. Group administrators where the article was shared received messages from Facebook informing them that such posts were “partly false.”Readers were directed to a “fact check” performed by a Facebook contractor named Lead Stories.[2]We find the “fact check” performed by Lead Stories to be inaccurate, incompetent and irresponsible.— It fails to provide any assertions of fact that The BMJ article got wrong— It has a nonsensical title: “Fact Check: The British Medical Journal Did NOT Reveal Disqualifying And Ignored Reports Of Flaws In Pfizer COVID-19 Vaccine Trials”— The first paragraph inaccurately labels The BMJ a “news blog”— It contains a screenshot of our article with a stamp over it stating “Flaws Reviewed,” despite the Lead Stories article not identifying anything false or untrue in The BMJ article— It published the story on its website under a URL that contains the phrase “hoax-alert”We have contacted Lead Stories, but they refuse to change anything about their article or actions that have led to Facebook flagging our article.We have also contacted Facebook directly, requesting immediate removal of the “fact checking” label and any link to the Lead Stories article, thereby allowing our readers to freely share the article on your platform.There is also a wider concern that we wish to raise. We are aware that The BMJ is not the only high quality information provider to have been affected by the incompetence of Meta’s fact checking regime. To give one other example, we would highlight the treatment by Instagram (also owned by Meta) of Cochrane, the international provider of high quality systematic reviews of the medical evidence.[3] Rather than investing a proportion of Meta’s substantial profits to help ensure the accuracy of medical information shared through social media, you have apparently delegated responsibility to people incompetent in carrying out this crucial task. Fact checking has been a staple of good journalism for decades. What has happened in this instance should be of concern to anyone who values and relies on sources such as The BMJ.





> We hope you will act swiftly: specifically to correct the error relating to The BMJ’s article and to review the processes that led to the error; and generally to reconsider your investment in and approach to fact checking overall.
> Best wishes,
> Fiona Godlee, editor in chief
> Kamran Abbasi, incoming editor in chief
> ...




Mick


----------



## wayneL (20 December 2021)

Are we waking up yet, sheeple?


----------



## macca (20 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Are we waking up yet, sheeple?





I hate to say it but is this a situation that starts riots?

Given the number of guns in the USA it could lead to anarchy.


----------



## DB008 (20 December 2021)

_The Lancet_​​Effect of early treatment with fluvoxamine on risk of emergency care and hospitalisation among patients with COVID-19: the TOGETHER randomised, platform clinical trial​
Summary​Background​Recent evidence indicates a potential therapeutic role of fluvoxamine for COVID-19. In the TOGETHER trial for acutely symptomatic patients with COVID-19, we aimed to assess the efficacy of fluvoxamine versus placebo in preventing hospitalisation defined as either retention in a COVID-19 emergency setting or transfer to a tertiary hospital due to COVID-19.​​Methods​This placebo-controlled, randomised, adaptive platform trial done among high-risk symptomatic Brazilian adults confirmed positive for SARS-CoV-2 included eligible patients from 11 clinical sites in Brazil with a known risk factor for progression to severe disease. Patients were randomly assigned (1:1) to either fluvoxamine (100 mg twice daily for 10 days) or placebo (or other treatment groups not reported here). The trial team, site staff, and patients were masked to treatment allocation. Our primary outcome was a composite endpoint of hospitalisation defined as either retention in a COVID-19 emergency setting or transfer to tertiary hospital due to COVID-19 up to 28 days post-random assignment on the basis of intention to treat. Modified intention to treat explored patients receiving at least 24 h of treatment before a primary outcome event and per-protocol analysis explored patients with a high level adherence (>80%). We used a Bayesian analytic framework to establish the effects along with probability of success of intervention compared with placebo. The trial is registered at ClinicalTrials.gov (NCT04727424) and is ongoing.​​Findings​The study team screened 9803 potential participants for this trial. The trial was initiated on June 2, 2020, with the current protocol reporting randomisation to fluvoxamine from Jan 20 to Aug 5, 2021, when the trial arms were stopped for superiority. 741 patients were allocated to fluvoxamine and 756 to placebo. The average age of participants was 50 years (range 18–102 years); 58% were female. The proportion of patients observed in a COVID-19 emergency setting for more than 6 h or transferred to a teritary hospital due to COVID-19 was lower for the fluvoxamine group compared with placebo (79 [11%] of 741 vs 119 [16%] of 756); relative risk [RR] 0·68; 95% Bayesian credible interval [95% BCI]: 0·52–0·88), with a probability of superiority of 99·8% surpassing the prespecified superiority threshold of 97·6% (risk difference 5·0%). Of the composite primary outcome events, 87% were hospitalisations. Findings for the primary outcome were similar for the modified intention-to-treat analysis (RR 0·69, 95% BCI 0·53–0·90) and larger in the per-protocol analysis (RR 0·34, 95% BCI, 0·21–0·54). There were 17 deaths in the fluvoxamine group and 25 deaths in the placebo group in the primary intention-to-treat analysis (odds ratio [OR] 0·68, 95% CI: 0·36–1·27). There was one death in the fluvoxamine group and 12 in the placebo group for the per-protocol population (OR 0·09; 95% CI 0·01–0·47). We found no significant differences in number of treatment emergent adverse events among patients in the fluvoxamine and placebo groups.​​Interpretation​Treatment with fluvoxamine (100 mg twice daily for 10 days) among high-risk outpatients with early diagnosed COVID-19 reduced the need for hospitalisation defined as retention in a COVID-19 emergency setting or transfer to a tertiary hospital.​​
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(21)00448-4/fulltext​
.


----------



## DB008 (22 December 2021)

Very interesting...

How the media has been playing us. Keeping up the 'fear factor'. I think we will see Omicron as our way to get/build up natural/herd immunity and get us out of this mess.


Omicron coverage reveals how the establishment, media keep us scared​
In March 2020, a profile of the typical COVID victim emerged from Italy. The average decedent was 80 years old, with approximately three comorbidities, such as heart disease, obesity or diabetes. The young had little to worry about; the survival rate for the vast majority of the population was well over 99 percent.​​That portrait never significantly changed. The early assessments of COVID out of Italy have remained valid through today. And so it will prove with the Omicron variant.​​The data out of South Africa, after five weeks of Omicron spread, suggest that Omicron should be a cause for celebration, not fear. Its symptoms are mild to nonexistent in the majority of the infected, especially the vaccinated; hospitalization rates are over nine times lower than for previous COVID strains; deaths are negligible. That assessment will only be confirmed as the United States and other Western countries gather their own data on Omicron.​​Yet the public health establishment and the media are working overtime to gin up Omicron hysteria. The official response to the Omicron variant provides a case study in the deliberate manufacture of fear.​​More on link below....​

https://nypost.com/2021/12/21/omicron-coverage-reveals-how-the-establishment-media-keep-us-scared/


.​


----------



## DB008 (22 December 2021)

Vinay Prasad

Very, very good points. Probably his best summary so far.

The more boosters you get, does it really help?  Myocarditis increases, is it worth it for under 40's ?

​FDA Vaccine Officials Resign & Now Write Op Eds​A Play-by-Play Summary of Politics & Boosters​








.​


----------



## rederob (23 December 2021)

Omicron is more infectious but the UK experience tells us this:
*Summary*
To assess differences in the risk of hospitalisation between the Omicron variant of concern (1) and the Delta variant, we analysed data from all PCR-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 cases in England with last test specimen dates between 1st and 14th December inclusive.​... Overall, we find evidence of a reduction in the risk of hospitalisation for Omicron relative to Delta infections, averaging over all cases in the study period.​... These reductions must be balanced against the larger risk of infection with Omicron, due to the reduction in protection provided by both vaccination and natural infection. A previous infection reduces the risk of any hospitalisation by approximately 50% (Table 2) and the risk of a hospital stay of 1+ days by 61% (95%CI:55-65%) (before adjustments for under ascertainment of reinfections).​...In broad terms, our estimates suggest that individuals who have received at least 2 vaccine doses remain substantially protected against hospitalisation, even if protection against infection has been largely lost against the Omicron variant (4,5).​
I have only highlighted key findings above as the Summary was lengthy.
Overall the picture for hospitalisations and death from Omicron in the UK appear at nowhere the levels they were for Delta and previous variants of concern.   On the flipside, even low percentages can collapse the hospital system if infectivity continues at its present exponential rate in Australia.


----------



## Humid (23 December 2021)

Sky News Journo gets reality check


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 134681
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great way to actually catch the Moronic. Really dumb sh¹t IMO.


----------



## Humid (23 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Great way to actually catch the Moronic. Really dumb sh¹t IMO.



Thought you would be too busy this time of the year...........helping Santa


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Thought you would be too busy this time of the year...........helping Santa



Nah, it too farkin' hot. I'm inventing excuses.

Santa isn't allowed in WA anyway


----------



## The Triangle (23 December 2021)

Masks for Christmas after COVID case roams for 11 days
					

People in Perth and Peel must wear masks in all indoor venues -- except homes -- over Christmas after an unvaccinated French backpacker went nightclubbing while unknowingly infected with COVID-19.




					thewest.com.au
				




You can be a triple vaccinated Australian and not be allowed in to WA.  You can get sacked from your job in WA for not being vaccinated. But an unvaccinated French backpacker gets in no problem and the government can't seem to explain why?


----------



## rederob (23 December 2021)

Our PM has proven to be a donkey throughout the pandemic, with States leading the charge in terms of keeping infections in check prior to Omicron's arrival.
His statement's yesterday attracted some interesting social media attention, over and above MSM.  What is a bit perplexing is his so called reliance on medical advice, which is now thrown out the window.   The international medical advice is to maintain all the original standards relating to minimising spread *and *vaccinate as much as possible.  As I said in an earlier post today, low hospitalisation rates combined with high infectivity can collapse hospital systems.  Emphasising this point is what is now underway in the UK and shown below in the 7-day moving average of hospitalisations:





So that's the bad news.  The good news to date is that mechanical ventilation numbers are still on the decline, indicating that severe illness is less problematic, but only if you are double vaxxed.  I will post a chart next week to show if that situation has changed.


----------



## DB008 (23 December 2021)

WA is just delaying the inevitable. QLd is finding out the slow way, WA even slower...

We are all going to catch Covid-19 one way or another. Part and parcel of living in a global community and a highly infectious virus. That's life.


----------



## wayneL (23 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> WA is just delaying the inevitable. QLd is finding out the slow way, WA even slower...
> 
> We are all going to catch Covid-19 one way or another. Part and parcel of living in a global community and a highly infectious virus. That's life.



Yep

Bring.
It.
On.

The healthy, face it.

The vulnerable, protect yourselves.

The pu55ies, man the **** up.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> We are all going to catch Covid-19 one way or another. Part and parcel of living in a global community and a highly infectious virus. That's life.



Whilst true, the real lesson humans need to learn is that the "global community" bit is the actual weapon of mass destruction when it comes to this sort of thing.

Covid-19 might not wipe us out but in due course something will come along that does and if we haven't put in place suitable measures by that time then we're stuffed.

Sad though it may seem, the idea that someone can be pretty much anywhere on earth within 100 hours just isn't sustainable.


----------



## basilio (24 December 2021)

Dominic Perrottet has woken up on the effects of a totally out of control Omicron infection on NSW.

Dominic Perrottet has finally realised that ‘letting it rip’ comes at too high a cost – for all of us​Anne Davies






*The pro-business premier eased restrictions and ‘opened up’ the NSW economy but staff are ill or isolating while customers are staying at home*

Get our free news app; get our morning email briefing





Perhaps NSW premier Dominic Perrottet has sensed the public mood, finally. It’s one of worry. Photograph: Mick Tsikas/AAP
Thu 23 Dec 2021 19.14 AEDT
First published on Thu 23 Dec 2021 19.02 AED


New South Wales’s laissez-faire premier, Dominic Perrottet, has found himself mugged by reality on the cusp of Christmas.
Here are the grim statistics that tell us what is happening in NSW: 5,715 new cases reported on Thursday; 1,500 health workers sick or isolating (leaving the health system even more stressed); rising Covid cases in ICU and nearly 150,000 people a day lining up to get tested.

Yes, some of these are travellers, who are required to be tested by other states. But most are people who worry they have been exposed and are now wondering whether they should attend Christmas Day with parents or grandparents.

In the three weeks since the Omicron variant was first detected here on 28 November, Perrottet has been telling us to go out and spend, head to the pub, get back to normal.









						Dominic Perrottet has finally realised that ‘letting it rip’ comes at too high a cost | Anne Davies
					

The pro-business premier eased restrictions and ‘opened up’ the NSW economy but staff are ill or isolating while customers are staying at home




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Belli (24 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Dominic Perrottet has woken up on the effects of a totally out of control Omicron infection on NSW.




So Dom Quixote got trashed by the windmill.


----------



## macca (24 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Dominic Perrottet has woken up on the effects of a totally out of control Omicron infection on NSW.
> 
> Dominic Perrottet has finally realised that ‘letting it rip’ comes at too high a cost – for all of us​Anne Davies
> View attachment 134712
> ...




And as unvaxed people were still restricted for most of this time, all of this happened in those who are vaccinated


----------



## Humid (24 December 2021)

macca said:


> And as unvaxed people were still restricted for most of this time, all of this happened in those who are vaccinated



Exactly it could of been much worse


----------



## Belli (24 December 2021)

macca said:


> And as unvaxed people were still restricted for most of this time, all of this happened in those who are vaccinated




You may be correct but at this stage it is only an assumption on your part.

While there is always lag time in the statistical information, the initial indications are it will be the unvaccinated who will be adversely impacted as per table below.  In regard to vaccination status, see page 2 of the link below.

So while those who are vaccinated will or can be infected with Covid (logical if a large portion of the population is vaccinated and it well known breakthrough infections will occur) those who choose not to be vaccinated are likely to bear the brunt of it unfortunately - along with the medical and nursing staff who are to treat them but let's not concern ourselves with them.  They are expendable - until you need them of course.











__





						COVID-19 (Coronavirus) - NSW respiratory surveillance reports - COVID-19 and influenza
					






					www.health.nsw.gov.au


----------



## macca (24 December 2021)

Belli said:


> You may be correct but at this stage it is only an assumption on your part.
> 
> While there is always lag time in the statistical information, the initial indications are it will be the unvaccinated who will be adversely impacted as per table below.  In regard to vaccination status, see page 2 of the link below.
> 
> ...




Gee, you are callous, "medical staff are expendable"

Four of my extended family are "expendable medical staff" I do believe they would disagree with that statement


----------



## Belli (24 December 2021)

Ah, so the sarcasm escaped you.  That says a lot.

By the by, two of my children are nurses (Yep, ICU.  Guess the condition of the patients who require such care) and that is how they feel about how they are being considered by the powers that be.


----------



## basilio (24 December 2021)

macca said:


> Gee, you are callous, "medical staff are expendable"
> 
> Four of my extended family are "expendable medical staff" I do believe they would disagree with that statement




Perhaps Belli should have added lots of emojis and exclamation points !!!  in case the dark irony of his comments was lost.

The whole xxxxxxxx point about the challenge of  runaway COVID infections is the breakdown of our health system as they attempt to cope with increasing infections which n addition undermine their capacity to deal with the situation.


----------



## Belli (24 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Perhaps Belli should have added lots of emojis and exclamation points !!!  in case the dark irony of his comments was lost.
> 
> The whole xxxxxxxx point about the challenge of  runaway COVID infections is the breakdown of our health system as they attempt to cope with increasing infections which n addition undermine their capacity to deal with the situation.




!!!  !!!

 ?!?

The unfortunate reality is a number of the medical and nursing profession will highly likely be infected despite full PPE in a number of areas. The AIHW did a health workforce study and across Australia in the nursing/midwife category there are 1.8 Full-Time Effective per 100,000 people.  Not all of those work in hospitals or in major Metropolitan areas so that hits the number available should staff be required to isolate.  I heard some 20 staff at Canberra Hospital were required to do that at one stage (likely to be a rolling situation.) It isn't easy to backfill those absences.  A very, very difficult situation all round.

And it hits patients in other ways.  My mate across the road is being treated for cancer.  He was to be admitted for radiation therapy last Tuesday.  It was cancelled.  A Covid positive patient (asymptomatic) attended the consultation rooms of the specialist concerned so all were required to isolate.  Admissions were a no-go as a result.  It's not only headline stuff.  It is these small unreported matters which also put a strain on the system and the people involved.

Anyway, take care all.


----------



## macca (24 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Ah, so the sarcasm escaped you.  That says a lot.
> 
> By the by, two of my children are nurses (Yep, ICU.  Guess the condition of the patients who require such care) and that is how they feel about how they are being considered by the powers that be.




Certainly does say a lot, if you think it funny to be sarcastic about such things then you must have a dark sense of humour, I prefer not to tempt fate.

You also seem to believe that I take aim at "expendable medical staff" I definitely do not. 

If you really read my posts you would understand that my gripe is with our incompetent medical leaders who place the hospital medical staff under all this pressure.

It has been shown OS that early intervention makes a Huge difference to hospitalisation rates yet here in OZ they haven't even bothered to encourage people to get some sunshine let alone give people some home treatment packs when confirmed with Covid.

Elderly folk dying are still dying in nursing homes, assuming the Media would announce it if it happened, why are they not all being given Vit D shots. Untold studies OS to show Vit D helps a Lot.

Driving me nuts reading about all this unnecessary sickness and deaths


----------



## mullokintyre (24 December 2021)

According to Todays Australian


> Australians understood and accepted the risk of Covid-19 vaccination, minute as they are. There have been nine deaths in Australia attributable to Covid-19 vaccines and as tragic as they were, they were met with a response from medical science that prevented further deaths.
> 
> The Therapeutic Goods Administration found that all nine deaths occurred following the first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine – eight were cases of blood clots with low blood platelets, or thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS), while one was a case of immune thrombocytopenia.
> 
> There have been no deaths since August with 30 million doses or more going into arms in the ensuing period to present.



So, since the last death in August, 30 million doses have been administered with no (as yet ) deaths.
Not sure how many were the AZ vaccine,  but whatever the variety, it a pretty good outcome.
Since that same date, there have been  1170 deaths  where the deceased had Covid (courtesy of COVID Live in OZ. )
So anyone who takes an interest in risk management would most likely come to the conclusion that getting vaccinated is an excellent risk reward outcome.
Mick


----------



## Humid (24 December 2021)

macca said:


> Certainly does say a lot, if you think it funny to be sarcastic about such things then you must have a dark sense of humour, I prefer not to tempt fate.
> 
> You also seem to believe that I take aim at "expendable medical staff" I definitely do not.
> 
> ...


----------



## Belli (25 December 2021)

Taking this at face value - it is a newspaper article - damn and blast. I had a feeling it could happen.

"Victoria’s healthcare system faces a looming staffing crisis at a critical time, with hundreds of staff in isolation and COVID-19 hospitalisations on the rise, as Melbourne doctors warn hospitals are already having to close crucial ICU beds."

"The state government confirmed about *700 healthcare workers were isolating* after being exposed to the virus in the days before Christmas."









						Fears for hospital system as cases rise and staff availability falls
					

Victoria’s healthcare system faces a staffing crisis at a critical time when hundreds of staff are in isolation and COVID-19 hospitalisations are on the rise.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## macca (25 December 2021)

double post


----------



## macca (25 December 2021)

Bit of a laugh  

FYI the "no nothing experts" I am quoting include Dr Anthony Fauci, you probably haven't heard of him but he both advocates and actually takes Vitamin D and C every day


----------



## mullokintyre (25 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Taking this at face value - it is a newspaper article - damn and blast. I had a feeling it could happen.
> 
> "Victoria’s healthcare system faces a looming staffing crisis at a critical time, with hundreds of staff in isolation and COVID-19 hospitalisations on the rise, as Melbourne doctors warn hospitals are already having to close crucial ICU beds."
> 
> ...




I have great trouble with these types of articles.
They are generic , alarmist, but leave out a lot of data.
Firstly, of the 700 health care workers, how many are actually front line staff, as distinct from the army of non  critical staff such as cleaners, cooks, admin staff, social workers, HR people, security staff  etc.
Secondly,  if you look at the figures released today, the  the numbers have actually gone down for the week.
23 less in hospital, 13 less in ICU, and 1 less on ventillators.
Todays figures are  2108 cases , 361 in hospital. 71 in ICU and 42 on ventillators.
Indeed since the last peak in the pandemic, back in the middle of October when there were over 2000 cases on numerous days, the peak s
were
851 in Hospital , 163  in ICU and 106 on Ventillators.
It would be difficult to argue that there would not have been at least as many  of the health care workers stood down because of exposure to the virus, as they would have been dealing with so many more cases in hospital.
And before someone chimes in and says that the figures have a lag time, given this outbreak increase started back in early December, so if there was going to be an increase in the hospitalisation, ICU and ventillators it should have been showing up by now.
The article in the Age goes on to say 


> Melbourne ICU doctor David Pilcher said there had been a steady rise in the number of coronavirus patients admitted to intensive care over the past fortnight, just as hospitals struggled to fill rosters.



Well if we look at the figures  a fortnight ago , on December 11 they were as follows:
364 in hospital, 68 in ICU, and 29 on ventillators.
Thats is an increase in 3 hospitalisations,  3 less in ICU, and 13 more on ventillators.
That is not a steady rise  of patients admitted to intensive car.
So many commentators wonder why people head to "fake news sites" instead of MSM.
Perhaps if some of the so called journalists took a little trouble to check up on some of the statements, they may have more credibility.
All of the figures I have used come from This site
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (25 December 2021)

As an adjunct to what I have written above, according to The Guardian


> Chant says roughly 80% of NSW Covid cases are Omicron variant.



Don't know how accurate the statement is, or whether the Guardian journalists reported it accurately, but without any dissenting evidence will have to take it on face value.
One would assume that Victoria will be in a similar boat, as experience from overseas says this variant is more infectious, but less severe.
I should point out that the same site I used for the data above shows a somewhat different  picture in NSW.
Todays figures,  6288 cases,  388 in hospital, 52 in ICU, 14 on ventilators.
Two weeks ago the figures were 804 cases , 168 in hospital , 21 in ICU, and 9 on ventilators, so indeed they have had an increase.
If we compare Victoria to NSW,  despite having  a big increase in cases since  the 14th December, NSW numbers  show an  8% higher number of  hospitalisations,  but about 1/3rd the number in ICU, and about half the number on ventilators.

Mick


----------



## DB008 (25 December 2021)

Great short podcast.

I agree that most the measures we are doing, is all theatre.

Like going to a restaurant. Wear a mask while walking to your table. Take off mask while eating. Put mask back on when leaving. 

Same as flying. I flew from Melbourne to Brisbane a few months ago
Wear masks at airport.
Board flight, wear mask.
Offered refreshments/coffee in flight, take off mask for over 1 hour
Decent into Brisbane, mask back on
At Brisbane airport, wear mask
All theatre


​


----------



## DB008 (25 December 2021)

Protection and waning of natural and hybrid COVID-19 immunity - medRxiv​
Abstract​*BACKGROUND* Infection with SARS-CoV-2 provides substantial natural immunity against reinfection. Recent studies have shown strong waning of the immunity provided by the BNT162b2 vaccine. The time course of natural and hybrid immunity is unknown.​​*METHODS* Data on confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infections were extracted from the Israeli Ministry of Health database for the period August to September 2021 regarding all persons previously infected or vaccinated. We compared infection rates as a function of time since the last immunity-conferring event using Poisson regression, adjusting for possible confounding factors.​​*RESULTS* Confirmed infection rates increased according to time elapsed since the last immunity-conferring event in all cohorts. For unvaccinated previously infected individuals they increased from 10.5 per 100,000 risk-days for those previously infected 4-6 months ago to 30.2 for those previously infected over a year ago. For individuals receiving a single dose following prior infection they increased from 3.7 per 100,000 person days among those vaccinated in the past two months to 11.6 for those vaccinated over 6 months ago. For vaccinated previously uninfected individuals the rate per 100,000 person days increased from 21.1 for persons vaccinated within the first two months to 88.9 for those vaccinated more than 6 months ago.​​*CONCLUSIONS* Protection from reinfection decreases with time since previous infection, but is, nevertheless, higher than that conferred by vaccination with two doses at a similar time since the last immunity-conferring event. A single vaccine dose after infection helps to restore protection.​
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v1​



​Protective immunity after recovery from SARS-CoV-2 infection - The Lancet​
The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic is now better controlled in settings with access to fast and reliable testing and highly effective vaccination rollouts. Several studies have found that people who recovered from COVID-19 and tested seropositive for anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies have low rates of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection. There are still looming questions surrounding the strength and duration of such protection compared with that from vaccination.​​We reviewed studies published in PubMed from inception to Sept 28, 2021, and found well conducted biological studies showing protective immunity after infection (panel). Furthermore, multiple epidemiological and clinical studies, including studies during the recent period of predominantly delta (B.1.617.2) variant transmission, found that the risk of repeat SARS-CoV-2 infection decreased by 80·5–100% among those who had had COVID-19 previously (panel). The reported studies were large and conducted throughout the world. Another laboratory-based study that analysed the test results of 9119 people with previous COVID-19 from Dec 1, 2019, to Nov 13, 2020, found that only 0·7% became reinfected. In a study conducted at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, OH, USA, those who had not previously been infected had a COVID-19 incidence rate of 4·3 per 100 people, whereas those who had previously been infected had a COVID-19 incidence rate of 0 per 100 people. Furthermore, a study conducted in Austria found that the frequency of hospitalisation due to a repeated infection was five per 14 840 (0·03%) people and the frequency of death due to a repeated infection was one per 14 840 (0·01%) people. Due to the strong association and biological basis for protection, clinicians should consider counselling recovered patients on their risk for reinfection and document previous infection status in medical records.​​Although those studies show that protection from reinfection is strong and persists for more than 10 months of follow-up, it is unknown how long protective immunity will truly last. Many systemic viral infections, such as measles, confer long-term, if not lifelong, immunity, whereas others, such as influenza, do not (due to changes in viral genetics). We are limited by the length of current reported follow-up data to know with certainty the expected duration that previous infection will protect against COVID-19. Encouragingly, authors of a study conducted among recovered individuals who had experienced mild SARS-CoV-2 infection reported that mild infection induced a robust antigen-specific, long-lived humoral immune memory in humans.​​It important to note that antibodies are incomplete predictors of protection. After vaccination or infection, many mechanisms of immunity exist within an individual not only at the antibody level, but also at the level of cellular immunity. It is known that SARS-CoV-2 infection induces specific and durable T-cell immunity, which has multiple SARS-CoV-2 spike protein targets (or epitopes) as well as other SARS-CoV-2 protein targets. The broad diversity of T-cell viral recognition serves to enhance protection to SARS-CoV-2 variants, with recognition of at least the alpha (B.1.1.7), beta (B.1.351), and gamma (P.1) variants of SARS-CoV-2. Researchers have also found that people who recovered from SARS-CoV infection in 2002–03 continue to have memory T cells that are reactive to SARS-CoV proteins 17 years after that outbreak. Additionally, a memory B-cell response to SARS-CoV-2 evolves between 1·3 and 6·2 months after infection, which is consistent with longer-term protection.​​Some people who have recovered from COVID-19 might not benefit from COVID-19 vaccination. In fact, one study found that previous COVID-19 was associated with increased adverse events following vaccination with the Comirnaty BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine (Pfizer–BioNTech). In addition, there are rare reports of serious adverse events following COVID-19 vaccination. In Switzerland, residents who can prove they have recovered from a SARS-CoV-2 infection through a positive PCR or other test in the past 12 months are considered equally protected as those who have been fully vaccinated.​​Although longer follow-up studies are needed, clinicians should remain optimistic regarding the protective effect of recovery from previous infection. Community immunity to control the SARS-CoV-2 epidemic can be reached with the acquired immunity due to either previous infection or vaccination. Acquired immunity from vaccination is certainly much safer and preferred. Given the evidence of immunity from previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, however, policy makers should consider recovery from previous SARS-CoV-2 infection equal to immunity from vaccination for purposes related to entry to public events, businesses, and the workplace, or travel requirements.​

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00676-9/fulltext​.


----------



## moXJO (25 December 2021)

Didn't the hospitals fire a bunch of staff. In an environment where there's people shortages already.


----------



## Belli (25 December 2021)

There is a need to wait for the December figures but in the meantime:

June 2021



			https://www.ahpra.gov.au/documents/default.aspx?record=WD21%2f31090&dbid=AP&chksum=4H16Y0EVoubM0vNJ%2fYD8xg%3d%3d
		


September 2021



			https://www.ahpra.gov.au/documents/default.aspx?record=WD21%2f31448&dbid=AP&chksum=ZwWLeMSD3AdhywskE0%2br1w%3d%3d
		


About a 10,000 increase in Registered Nurses from June to September.


----------



## moXJO (25 December 2021)

Belli said:


> There is a need to wait for the December figures but in the meantime:
> 
> June 2021
> 
> ...



Didn't a bunch get fired?


----------



## Belli (25 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Didn't a bunch get fired?




While it is a newspaper report from late October, it states that:

"A Royal Melbourne hospital spokesperson said eight staff had chosen not to get vaccinated and had resigned, a further eight had their employment terminated after stating they would not get the jab, and another 35 staff had been stood down." 

Apparently they were not all nurses and includes administrative staff.  Royal Melbourne has 11,000 personnel accordng to the article.









						Royal Melbourne hospital down 51 staff who won’t comply with Covid vaccine mandate
					

Those failing to be immunised represent less than 1% of workforce and include nurses, ward clerks and administration workers




					www.theguardian.com
				




I don't know what the current status is or whether a similar situation in terms of percentages applies to other hospitals in either Victoria or other States.


----------



## Belli (25 December 2021)

For what it's worth Vic Government has 125 job vacancies in the Medical & Nursing category





__





						Job Search
					






					www.careers.vic.gov.au
				




I haven't done a search on the other State's equivalent but it may give some indication of whether they are desperate to employ health staff or not as the case may be if there has is a high level of departures by those who decided not to be vaccinated.





__





						Find your next role in the public sector | I work for NSW
					

I work for NSW is the jobs site for NSW Government featuring thousands of opportunities across the sector.




					iworkfor.nsw.gov.au
				












						Search Jobs
					

I WORK FOR SA is the official careers website for South Australian Government jobs, featuring diverse career opportunities across the public sector.



					iworkfor.sa.gov.au
				












						Employment and jobs
					

Find information on jobs, employment,  job seekers, employees, employers, employees tax, superannuation, financial planning, work life balance, returning to work, employee rights, entitlements, pay, career, advice, career counselling, finding jobs, applying for jobs, vacancies, industry jobs...




					www.qld.gov.au
				








__





						Find a job in the WA government | Western Australian Government
					

Opportunities to work for the Western Australian Government.




					www.wa.gov.au


----------



## wayneL (25 December 2021)

There is story going around the the French backpacker here in WA is in fact, couple vaccinated.

Been trying to chase it up, but haven't found any fair dinkum verification yet.

Something just doesn't seem right about this whole scenario imo.


----------



## DB008 (25 December 2021)

Has anybody been looking at numbers in Japan?

Seems like every country is having a Omicron wave, except Japan. I wonder what they might be doing differently?


Chairman of Tokyo Metropolitan Medical Association Declares During Surge,​Time for Ivermectin is Now​​The chairman of the Tokyo Metropolitan Medical Association recently led an emergency press conference on August 13, declaring the urgent status of the pandemic as Japan is now in its worst surge of the COVID-19 pandemic since the onset of the crisis. Most recently, a record number of new cases were reported at 20,140 on August 14. Deaths aren’t as high as successive waves of the pandemic from February 2021 to the end of May, but nerves are frayed with record numbers of infections. Haruo Ozaki shared that 18,000 new infections are reported daily, indicating “it will be ranked high in the world”. However, he acknowledged the death count has eased as compared to previous surges.​
Greenlight for Ivermectin​
In Dr. Ozaki’s recent speech, he declared that ivermectin has demonstrated significant benefits in reducing infections and deaths where the regimen is prophylactically administered for another indication. The head of the Metropolitan Medical Association declared that while clinical trials were important, it was time to greenlight doctors to prescribe ivermectin in association with giving the patient informed consent.​
https://trialsitenews.com/chairman-...ares-during-surge-time-for-ivermectin-is-now/










.​


----------



## Belli (26 December 2021)

"An article on the website of right-wing U.S. radio host Hal Turner even erroneously claimed in October that Japan successfully ended the pandemic in the country in less than a month after it dropped its vaccine rollout and relied on ivermectin instead for treatment.

Amid a lack of convincing clinical data in Japan, Kitasato University Hospital worked on a doctor-led midstage clinical trial, the results of which are not yet available. Kowa Co. has recently launched a final-phase clinical trial.

The Tokyo Medical Association has also extended its support to Kowa’s trial. At the height of Japan’s fifth wave in mid-August, its president, Haruo Ozaki, proposed the emergency use of ivermectin to deal effectively with the pandemic."









						Ivermectin for COVID? Unproven treatment stokes concern in Japan
					

Although the treatment has received some support from Japan's medical establishment and studies are ongoing, ivermectin is not approved as a COVID-19 remedy in the country.




					www.japantimes.co.jp


----------



## moXJO (26 December 2021)

Ok, family I know has contracted omicron 3 unvaxxed 1 vaxed. 1 of the unvaxxed caught  it and was pretty sick for a night. Is now ok with the usual flu symptoms (no hospital). See how the others go.

Over 6 of my sons mates have had it with very mild symptoms. All vaccinated.


----------



## DB008 (26 December 2021)

moXJO - can l ask, is this in NSW or VIC?

l'll be honest, l just want to get Omicron and get it over and done with. Everyone l know is so over Covid-19.


----------



## DB008 (26 December 2021)

Belli said:


> "An article on the website of right-wing U.S. radio host Hal Turner even erroneously claimed in October that Japan successfully ended the pandemic in the country in less than a month after it dropped its vaccine rollout and relied on ivermectin instead for treatment.
> 
> Amid a lack of convincing clinical data in Japan, Kitasato University Hospital worked on a doctor-led midstage clinical trial, the results of which are not yet available. Kowa Co. has recently launched a final-phase clinical trial.
> 
> The Tokyo Medical Association has also extended its support to Kowa’s trial. At the height of Japan’s fifth wave in mid-August, its president, Haruo Ozaki, proposed the emergency use of ivermectin to deal effectively with the pandemic."





I find is so interesting that when the media talks about Ivermectin, always, without fail/doubt, puts in the horse tables (like in the link above).

Meanwhile, in the real world -



> Medications commonly prescribed to both humans and pets include *antibiotics like amoxicillin*, antidepressants such as Prozac, pain medication like tramadol, various chemotherapy drugs, certain thyroid-control medications, and prednisone.





Joe Rogan was prescribed Ivermectin, but all you heard on CNN was "Joe Rogan takes dangerous horse dewormer"

Japan must also be scared for taking the dangerous horse dewormer as per my post above


Ivermectin, 'wonder drug' from Japan: the human use perspective​Abstract​​Discovered in the late-1970s, the pioneering drug ivermectin, a dihydro derivative of avermectin--originating solely from a single microorganism isolated at the Kitasato Institute, Tokyo, Japan from Japanese soil--has had an immeasurably beneficial impact in improving the lives and welfare of billions of people throughout the world. Originally introduced as a veterinary drug, it kills a wide range of internal and external parasites in commercial livestock and companion animals. It was quickly discovered to be ideal in combating two of the world's most devastating and disfiguring diseases which have plagued the world's poor throughout the tropics for centuries. It is now being used free-of-charge as the sole tool in campaigns to eliminate both diseases globally. It has also been used to successfully overcome several other human diseases and new uses for it are continually being found. This paper looks in depth at the events surrounding ivermectin's passage from being a huge success in Animal Health into its widespread use in humans, a development which has led many to describe it as a "wonder" drug.​


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21321478/​

Wiki on Ivermectin here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin


.
	

		
			
		

		
	






​


----------



## Belli (26 December 2021)

In the article I linked in post #4964, Cochrane was mentioned.  It is probable it is referring to the analysis of various studies conducted on the use of ivermectin.

Here is the relevant link to the study.  It's rather lengthy and will take some time to read.



			https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD015017.pub2/full


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## rederob (26 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> I find is so interesting that when the media talks about Ivermectin, always, without fail/doubt, puts in the horse tables (like in the link above).
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world -
> 
> ...



If ivermectin was so good the data would be clear cut.
Instead, it has been dodgy and uninspiring.
Ivermectin cannot be shown to have any near equivalence to vaccination so people taking it instead of vaccination should probably just stuff Tic Tacs into a plain paper box, find a good marker pen, and print *Ivermectin *on it.


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## Belli (26 December 2021)

rederob said:


> so people taking it instead of vaccination should probably just stuff Tic Tacs into a plain paper box, find a good marker pen, and print *Ivermectin *on it.





Your import/reselling business going well? 

"14 December 2021

The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) has tested a number of imported products labelled as ivermectin and found that they are counterfeit under the Therapeutic Goods Act 1989.
Laboratory testing has confirmed that the following 12mg products contain less than the Active Pharmaceutical Ingredient declared on the labels:

Iversun-12
Covimectin-12
Ivilife-12
The results of the TGA testing serve as a warning against buying ivermectin products from unverified online sellers. Counterfeit products may contain undeclared and hazardous ingredients that could cause a serious adverse reaction. They may also be contaminated because of a lack of manufacturing and testing standards."









						TGA warns about imports of ivermectin
					

TGA has tested a number of imported products labelled as ivermectin and found that they are counterfeit




					www.tga.gov.au


----------



## moXJO (26 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> moXJO - can l ask, is this in NSW or VIC?
> 
> l'll be honest, l just want to get Omicron and get it over and done with. Everyone l know is so over Covid-19.



Nsw. Another unvaccinated mate is thinking the same thing.  He is prepping  and going to see how the others go. He is only in his 40s though. 

The sensible thing for anyone over 50 is to be  thinking of getting boosters. 

Personally will probably just catch omicron.


----------



## DB008 (26 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Your import/reselling business going well?




Screenshot


----------



## macca (26 December 2021)

Omicron in Newcastle, I know two young people (20s) from Argyle House vaccinated super spreader party.

Both feel lethargic, say it feels like a bad cold, both isolating in their bedroom of shared houses, all people in both houses are vaxed so they don't care if they get it (so they say)

Wait and see I guess


----------



## wayneL (27 December 2021)

The evil genius of masks... Such an interesting point of you from Bret and Heather here.

Btw, I've walked into several businesses since MaoGowan had his fit of fascism, without a mask. In fact I don't currently only one. Only 1 out of the 7 or 8 had anything to say. 

Only a small number of bedwetters remotely concerned about this and are not remotely interested in complying, and only do so because of fear of the government, not of Covid.


----------



## rederob (27 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> The evil genius of masks... Such an interesting point of you from Bret and Heather here.



At least it's not Twitter from @wayneL.
Doctors have worn mask for a long time and despite overwhelming evidence of the ability of masks to mitigate disease spread these old chestnuts keep getting rolled out.
True to form, no evidence to back up what @wayneL posts, and it's littered with the usual puerile political slant.


----------



## Belli (27 December 2021)

This is more interesting than watching vids or following twitter.

Vaccine testing, Face Mask testing and more.





__





						COVID-19 research - CSIRO
					






					www.csiro.au


----------



## IFocus (27 December 2021)

Most of my working life and particularly the last 30 years in the chemical industry wearing masks of all types including SCBA, was required  to carry escape respirators at all times as well in the chemical industry.

So watching the vid I just shook my head, this guy has no idea... none.


----------



## wayneL (27 December 2021)

@IFocus I will bet the  masks you were wearing, were a bit different than the silly things we are required to wear.

I did a little test today.

When I am hot fitting a horseshoe, my face is about 18 in directly above and the smoke basically goes straight into my chest and face.

I do hold my breath so I don't breath it in but if I run out of oxygen and have to take a breath, I will exhale the smoke much like exhaling the smoke of a cigarette (not a good thing by any means but it's part of the job).

So I thought, what if I may wear one of the pathetic masks that we are required to wear, when I'm hot fitting?

If these masks are so fecken good, I will just wear one when I'm hot fitting and breathe normally.... Therefore I shouldn't breathe in any smoke.

LMAO

I may as well be a 3 pack a day smoker if I did that. The simple test showed that I exhaled tons of smoke... Vis a vis inhaling tons of smoke.

One of the masks you were required to wear would probably be a different story, but not the silly things we buy in the chemist. (Which explicitly warn that they are no protection against covid-19).

Additionally I think you absolutely missed the greater point of the video, which is not surprising.


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## moXJO (27 December 2021)

Masks stop the exhalation of the virus. There's like a 16% reduction in risk of catching if just the one person is wearing it. It reduces so long as everyone is wearing it.

 But the ones with the vent holes can actually shoot it further. Improper use, lack of cleaning. Majority are just bullsht unless you are following  protocols. And no one is following protocols. 

If you stand in line to close you will catch it. It's legit just to reduce the distance you can spit it out your mouth as the fabric won't stop it. It's actually written on the box that it won't stop covid.

N95 will reduce chances of the virus but you diptards will wear it wrong and not follow proper mask procedures and still catch it.

There's been major studies.


----------



## bellenuit (27 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> N95 will reduce chances of the virus but you diptards will wear it wrong and not follow proper mask procedures and still catch it.




I read a US article today (CDC or some other official body) that said for Omicron, you need an N95 or KN95. Cloth masks just don't cut it.


----------



## bellenuit (27 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I read a US article today (CDC or some other official body) that said for Omicron, you need an N95 or KN95. Cloth masks just don't cut it.




I was wrong about the source of the study, but here is the complete article from NPR.









						With omicron, you need a mask that means business
					

To block a variant this transmissible, scientists say you need an N95 or other high-filtration mask. Here's how to find a good one and when to wear it.




					www.npr.org


----------



## barney (27 December 2021)

Just to confirm, this post is meant to be humorous so no hate mail please 


For any or all information on masks, we need go no further than the World's highest paid Health/Science adviser on all things Covid related.

Dare I mention he has/is making a motza from Vaccine sales via his NIAID agency

The dis-honorable habitually lying, and generally naughty boy:  I give you

Mr Anthony Fauci 


Trust me. My name is Fauci


----------



## moXJO (28 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I was wrong about the source of the study, but here is the complete article from NPR.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's been recommendations of wearing multiple masks. But unless you follow all the protocols on masks and disposal then you can actually increase infection. 
Almost everyone just throws them in their car and wears them for days or weeks on end. 

N95 were the only things that really lessened it in the past with delta/covid. 

It's basically a public "feel good" measure if it's masks alone. But it captures when people cough,sneeze, or yell.

But everyone is getting omicron masks or not.


----------



## noirua (28 December 2021)




----------



## Knobby22 (28 December 2021)

noirua said:


> View attachment 134826



Exactly why they should not be free anymore!


----------



## DB008 (28 December 2021)

I think Sydney is going to surge with case numbers shortly, the clinic mix up giving out wrong test results will have a huge impact.

Having said that, Omicron isn't nearly as deadly as Delta.


----------



## moXJO (28 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> I think Sydney is going to surge with case numbers shortly, the clinic mix up giving out wrong test results will have a huge impact.
> 
> Having said that, Omicron isn't nearly as deadly as Delta.



Most people won't get tested because the queues are so long. It's definitely getting around.


----------



## noirua (28 December 2021)

United States of America: WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Dashboard With Vaccination Data
					

United States of America Coronavirus(COVID-19) statistics. Total and daily confirmed cases and deaths.




					covid19.who.int
				











						France: WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Dashboard With Vaccination Data
					

France Coronavirus(COVID-19) statistics. Total and daily confirmed cases and deaths.




					covid19.who.int


----------



## sptrawler (28 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Most people won't get tested because the queues are so long. It's definitely getting around.



I cant believe it when I see the queues over East on tv, it must be a family day out for some, "come on kids get the thermos and the picnic hamper, we're off for a test".


----------



## noirua (28 December 2021)

WHO Coronavirus (COVID-19) Dashboard
					

World Health Organization Coronavirus disease situation dashboard presents official daily counts of COVID-19 cases and deaths worldwide, along with vaccination rates and other vaccination data, while providing a hub to other resources. Interactive tools, including maps, epidemic curves and other...




					covid19.who.int


----------



## moXJO (28 December 2021)

Sons gone to get tested as he has tested positive on the rapid testing twice. He has flu symptoms. So at least two of them have it. I'll test on the rapid test to see if I won the lurgi Lotto.

Lucky I've been lazing round the house the last few days.


----------



## IFocus (28 December 2021)

Haven't seen to many discussions re masks that are any where near the mark and usually end up on some ideological rabbit hole or about discomfit.

All masks work to a degree its not a binary situation.

Its about the materials, face fit, face shape, beards etc, fit for purpose, at what point overload / saturation occurs, mitigation strategies and much more.

Pretty much all the masks /  respirators I used in industry failed at some point even the escape respirators, have seen many lung injuries as a result but they also saved lives.

In a industrial setting the protection is for the wearer, in a medical setting its actually both ways and as the level of protection falls generally ends up for the purpose of others not the wearer. 

Even in a full face SCBA with sealed suit you get failures particularly getting out of the gear, contamination / infection control is still difficult.

Even poor materials or badly fitting quality masks still provide some level of protection its not a binary argument.

Watching the testing people in those drive through stations often the masks are not worn correctly (fitted) yet they still provide protection combined with the face shields.


----------



## moXJO (28 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Haven't seen to many discussions re masks that are any where near the mark and usually end up on some ideological rabbit hole or about discomfit.
> 
> All masks work to a degree its not a binary situation.
> 
> ...



Poor masks provides next to zero protection or increases risk. They stop you spreading it though. 

Viruses can just pass through as masks will stop down to a certain size particle.

Indoors and in crowded numbers and you are not stopping it. 
Outdoors which is where they do the testing and it reduces the risk by a large margin. Hence why testing is normally done Outdoors.
Being outdoors and distancing is enough


----------



## Knobby22 (28 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Haven't seen to many discussions re masks that are any where near the mark and usually end up on some ideological rabbit hole or about discomfit.
> 
> All masks work to a degree its not a binary situation.
> 
> ...



Kitty Flanagan's "More rules for life" best selling book is very funny on masks. Specially the bit on letters saying you don't have to wear them.


----------



## IFocus (28 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Poor masks provides next to zero protection or increases risk. They stop you spreading it though.
> 
> Viruses can just pass through as masks will stop down to a certain size particle.
> 
> ...





The point is pretty much all masks leak they don't totally stop particles, gases or pathogens and can be a source of infection or contamination but they still do a job.

Early in the COVID out break doctors and nurses were leading in the death rate largely due poor or lack of PPE leading to their continued exposure to higher viral loads  hence suffering higher levels of disease which came out in the death rates.

There are similar studies regarding the flu.

Wearing a mask, any mask will reduce the viral load whether either breathing or exhaling safe to assume that translates to a degree if you contract or the level of disease you might suffer.

Like many of the issues surrounding COVID there are no certainties and a lot of grey but there are absolute probabilities.


----------



## moXJO (28 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> The point is pretty much all masks leak they don't totally stop particles, gases or pathogens and can be a source of infection or contamination but they still do a job.
> 
> Early in the COVID out break doctors and nurses were leading in the death rate largely due poor or lack of PPE leading to their continued exposure to higher viral loads  hence suffering higher levels of disease which came out in the death rates.
> 
> ...



Some actually provide that little protection 
It can also stick to your cheapesht mask and increase risk.

It's actually dangerous to say certain types of masks offer any sort of protection. 
They protect everyone if everyone is wearing one and following rules. And they do that by capturing aerosols not by blocking.


----------



## basilio (28 December 2021)

Some Covid masks are better than others. I know – I’m the Mask Nerd​Aaron Collins


Cloth or surgical masks just don’t cut it – respirators are far more effective, and they’re comfortable too

Aaron Collins is a engineer who tests and reviews masks





‘With ample supplies of these masks available and a more transmissible variant on our doorstep, there has never been a better time to up your mask game.’ Photograph: Frank Augstein/AP
Tue 28 Dec 2021 01.00 AEDT
Last modified on Tue 28 Dec 2021 05.20 AEDT


https://www.theguardian.com/comment...vid-tests-cloth-surgical-respirators#comments
667
As a mechanical engineer with a background in aerosol science, I often wondered why months into the pandemic we were still using cloth masks. People used similar coverings during the Spanish flu pandemic in 1919, more than 100 years ago. I knew better mask technology existed, and people needed to know about it.

So I embarked on a year-long mission to test, document, and review the best masks I could find. This eventually entailed building a mini aerosol laboratory in my bathroom, with scientific instruments capable of measuring particles 1/50,000th the width of a human hair. I have a public database for my results. And a Youtube channel. Over time I began to be known as the Mask Nerd.

... Aside from helping individuals choose the best mask for themselves, I would also encourage governments to increase the domestic production of masks, which would not only create jobs, but also allow regulatory oversight and a supply of effective, safe masks for their citizens. And good masks should be provided free of charge to the many that may not be able to afford them.

Not all masks are created equal, so it’s time to make sure everyone knows about high-filtration masks. These simple, inexpensive and super-effective masks can make a significant difference in our fight against Covid. If you wear a mask, you might as well make it count by wearing the best.


Aaron Collins is a mechanical engineer with a background in aerosol science who tests and reviews masks on his YouTube channel









						Some Covid masks are better than others. I know – I’m the Mask Nerd | Aaron Collins
					

A cloth or surgical mask just doesn’t cut it, says engineer Aaron Collins




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## macca (28 December 2021)

macca said:


> Omicron in Newcastle, I know two young people (20s) from Argyle House vaccinated super spreader party.
> 
> Both feel lethargic, say it feels like a bad cold, both isolating in their bedroom of shared houses, all people in both houses are vaxed so they don't care if they get it (so they say)
> 
> Wait and see I guess




Update on this, one is good to go (4 days), the other still a bit iffy after 7 days (I wonder does she have Delta)


----------



## barney (28 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Sons gone to get tested as he has tested positive on the rapid testing twice. He has flu symptoms. So at least two of them have it. I'll test on the rapid test to see if I won the lurgi Lotto.
> 
> Lucky I've been lazing round the house the last few days.





macca said:


> Update on this, one is good to go (4 days), the other still a bit iffy after 7 days (I wonder does she have Delta)



Thanks for the updates chaps.

Just wondering, have the folks tested positive been on any vitamin or medication regimen prior to or post infection?   And if so, has it helped.

I still take my daily Quercetin/Zinc/D3/C   .... fortunately no infection even though had close contact recently (lucky perhaps?)

Covid is basically a "clotting disease" so apparently plain old aspirin (if you contract covid)  is helpful, but dyor of course.

Good luck with it.


----------



## IFocus (28 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Some Covid masks are better than others. I know – I’m the Mask Nerd​Aaron Collins
> 
> 
> Cloth or surgical masks just don’t cut it – respirators are far more effective, and they’re comfortable too
> ...





Ah explains it a lot better than I cheers


----------



## moXJO (28 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> Ah explains it a lot better than I cheers



Coming from the Guardian it as expected  does a terrible job. Some of the masks that he tests are as low as 11% and under. Guardian meanwhile quotes 30% as the low end of the range. 

If you want protection you need the decent ones. And even then 99% of you will probably fk it up.


----------



## moXJO (28 December 2021)

Ok so it's omicron.

Started off with a funny throat. Not sore, but kind of gulpy. Head felt like it was about to get a headache but was nothing major.

A couple of hours in, my body felt like I was walking underwater. Really light arms and just numbed enough legs. 

Started to get lethargic. Body felt like it melted into the couch. Didn't feel like moving (no real pain). Went outside and cleaned around the yard. Nothing too strenuous, but the sunlight felt good. 

Came back in and was fine for an hour. Evening starts setting in (which is always when the pain train arrives for flu).

Headaches up to about a 3-4 on the pain scale. Legs go to jelly after I sit for to long and feel like I want to stumble. Body aches start, back, and legs. But nothing to bad.

Get the shivers. Could double as an adult toy. Shiver settings high. Got in the shower- hot water on the shoulders and back of neck is magical. Didn't want to move. 

In bed now and feel ok. Headaches about a 2, just slightly annoying. Oh diarrhea has started. I'm told it turns into a jet stream.

See how I am come 3am. Both sons similar ages 16 and 20. The one that had astra is slightly worse for wear. But it's about even all round.

Headaches range from slightly to the back of eyes and switches to sides of head. Sometimes worse just above back of neck.

Chest feels slightly heavy. Sometimes feel it beating weird.

When I spit it tastes metallic.

Can eat. 

Brain fog.

Nose not really runny. Only on occasion.

Feel pretty good so far. I'll update the other cases later.


----------



## bellenuit (29 December 2021)

Hope you all pull through with no problems, moXJO


----------



## SirRumpole (29 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Hope you all pull through with no problems, moXJO




+1.


----------



## Belli (29 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Hope you all pull through with no problems, moXJO




Absolutely.  Does not sound at all pleasant @moXJO.


----------



## qldfrog (29 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Ok so it's omicron.
> 
> Started off with a funny throat. Not sore, but kind of gulpy. Head felt like it was about to get a headache but was nothing major.
> 
> ...



Crossing fingers, you got omicron and you will be cruising in a week with real immunity.
Take care


----------



## Belli (29 December 2021)

Interesting article from John Hopkins.









						COVID Natural Immunity: What You Need to Know
					

Even if you’ve already had COVID-19, getting a coronavirus vaccine is recommended. These are the things you need to know about COVID natural immunity.




					www.hopkinsmedicine.org


----------



## qldfrog (29 December 2021)

I know it will be seen as heresy by some here but I am probably not alone in rationally thinking omicron is a godsend and we can only wish it spreads as much as possible to annihilate the initial and much much more nasty delta,etc  strains  and so provide real immunity to the affected, quickly build an herd immunity and protection for the years ahead.
Obviously, there are massive stocks of vaccines and deals done so you will still probably be mandated your 4 jabs a year for a while.Gravy trains tend to stick around.
Having the real flu, or omicron is no fun but I sign right now to be able to gain a bit of freedom and democratic life.,,obviously not that it is a garantee...


----------



## qldfrog (29 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Interesting article from John Hopkins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yeap as I was just saying plenty of stockpile and billions to be made...


----------



## DB008 (29 December 2021)

Your browser is not able to display this video.






.​


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## moXJO (29 December 2021)

Cheers all.

Woke up about 12:30 last night. Kind of a mild fever with body aches. It's a restless sleep because you can't get comfortable. If I was to sum this sickness up in one word it would be "annoying".

Metallic taste if I cough, but I'm not really coughing. 

Headache moved to top of head.

Uncomfortable pain in back of legs.

In terms of sickness I feel like I could go out and mow the lawn. Mentally I feel energetic.

This virus does feel multifaceted. Some interesting layers to it.


----------



## basilio (29 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Coming from the Guardian it as expected  does a terrible job. Some of the masks that he tests are as low as 11% and under. Guardian meanwhile quotes 30% as the low end of the range.
> 
> If you want protection you need the decent ones. And even then 99% of you will probably fk it up.




You don't actually *read *the stories do you Mokjo ?  You seem to decide that anything in The Guardian is terrible - by default.
If you had bothered to read the story you would have seen the following.

So  just a heads up to others posters. OK 

_With the Omicron variant spreading around the world, the most common question I get is still the most basic: what kind of mask should I be wearing?

If possible, not a cloth or surgical one. These masks are moderately effective at capturing particles coming out of your own mouth – what we engineering nerds call “source control”. But they offer little protection against incoming particles. We call this part – how well the mask protects the wearer – respiratory protection.

A typical cloth mask, while better than nothing, only provides around 30-60% protection to the wearer. Surgical masks, while better at 40-80%, lack a tight fit to the face, resulting in large amounts of leakage around the mask.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/27/best-masks-covid-tests-cloth-surgical-respirators




https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/23/omicron-covid-19-long-hauler
Much, much better masks exist. These are sometimes called high-filtration masks, or by the technical name of a filtering facepiece respirator. Such high-performance masks provide significant protection to the wearer at levels that are between five and 10 times that of a cloth mask, while also providing significant protection to others.

In fact, simply wearing a high-filtration mask can buy you significant time if exposed to infectious individuals. Analysis and studies suggest that with cloth or surgical masks, the risk of infection may increase within minutes of being around others with either no mask or low-performing masks. However with the use of well fitting, high-filtration masks, this same level of exposure would now take hours to become dangerous. However, it should be noted that being around a contagious person always carries some risk.

Beyond the actual increased protection from potential exposure, these masks provide a psychological improvement in day-to-day life, as you no longer need to concern yourself with the fact that those around you may prefer to wear their cloth masks under their chin.

One might assume based on the technical name, “respirator”, that these would be some Darth Vader-style headpiece – cumbersome and difficult to breathe in. However it’s quite the opposite. These masks feature a high-tech material called electrostatically charged meltblown polypropylene (quite a mouthful). It features tightly spaced micron-sized fibres – about 1/50th the diameter of a human hair – that have an electrostatic charge applied to them to catch even smaller particles. This material can filter particles that are a just a few nanometres in size.

The most amazing thing, though, is that while providing nearly 99% protection from typical Covid respiratory aerosols, these materials also provide breathability that surpasses that of a typical three-layer cloth mask._


----------



## rederob (29 December 2021)

basilio said:


> You don't actually *read *the stories do you Mokjo ?  You seem to decide that anything in The Guardian is terrible - by default.
> If you had bothered to read the story you would have seen the following.
> 
> So  just a heads up to others posters. OK
> ...



Cheapest local made respirator I could find.


----------



## Humid (29 December 2021)

basilio said:


> You don't actually *read *the stories do you Mokjo ?  You seem to decide that anything in The Guardian is terrible - by default.
> If you had bothered to read the story you would have seen the following.
> 
> So  just a heads up to others posters. OK
> ...



He relies on Murdoch to keep him informed and his boy premier


----------



## moXJO (29 December 2021)

basilio said:


> You don't actually *read *the stories do you Mokjo ?  You seem to decide that anything in The Guardian is terrible - by default.
> If you had bothered to read the story you would have seen the following.
> 
> So  just a heads up to others posters. OK
> ...



Uh huh have you actually watched any of his videos?

Here's why it's trash:

Unless you are using disposable masks, you are supposed to isolate your mask for four days after each time you wear it.


Majority of masks do not provide 30-40% protection against covid. That's an outright lie. They may stop you breathing in particles at that rate.

You have eyeballs.Touching your face. Both people need to be wearing a mask. To suggest you are "protected" is idiocy and gives people a false sense of security.

You are not protected. You are most likely using your mask wrong. And idiotic articles from the Guardian are just that. Do not put any trust in wearing a mask alone. If someone coughs in your face while you are wearing a mask and no faceshield then say hello to covid.


----------



## Belli (29 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Cheapest local made respirator I could find.




I got greedy a couple of week ago and purchased a few boxes of them. Not all for me though with a few friends of mine should they be worried and having trouble sourcing them.

And a not so happy pathology worker


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## moXJO (29 December 2021)

Humid said:


> He relies on Murdoch to keep him informed and his boy premier



Ohhh you thought the Guardian article and a YouTube video was informative.

Good try. Good try.


----------



## bellenuit (29 December 2021)

Belli said:


> I got greedy a couple of week ago and purchased a few boxes of them. Not all for me though with a few friends of mine should they be worried and having trouble sourcing them.
> 
> And a not so happy pathology worker





That Reddit link paints a frightening story Belli. A classic example of what the whole purpose of preventative measures and vaccines has been all along; to stop our health system collapsing. This quote from one of the replies is quite pertinent, though I don't know if the comparative figures are actual. And of course it's not just the COVID patients, but other patients who need ED treatment.

_That is what I don't understand. They are out there saying 'only 10% of Omicron patients end up in hospital whilst 25% of Delta end up in hospital, so it's gonna be fine'.

They don't realise that 10% of 10,000 Omicron is a hell of a lot for than 25% of 600 Delta.

_


----------



## DB008 (29 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> They don't realise that 10% of 10,000 Omicron is a hell of a lot for than 25% of 600 Delta.




Big difference in QLD -

85% fully vaccinated
Boosters rolling out


Omicron variant

Omicron is more contagious than Delta by a factor of ~4
Omicron is less fatal than Delta, l think by a factor of ~5

Today in QLD there were 1589 positive cases, none in ICU







Your browser is not able to display this video.




.


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## Belli (29 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> A classic example of what the whole purpose of preventative measures and vaccines has been all along; to stop our health system collapsing.




The approach has been odd given the history of previous pandemics.  Even in the late middle ages both before and during the first wave of the Black Death, health precautions (according to the understanding of science at that time) were introduced, first, to keep the population healthy and, second, to ensure commerce continued.  While they didn't have the understanding of science to the extent we do today it was apparent to them a healthy population resulted in a health economy.  The approaches were not all that dissimilar in many ways to those proposed now by many in the health sphere.

Last year MIT undertook a study of the economy of various USA cities after the Spanish Flu.  The conclusion of the study was those cities which had stronger health measures ended up with a stronger economy rebound once the Spanish Flu was contained.

Guess it's different this time; as it will be next time and the time after that.


----------



## moXJO (29 December 2021)

Omicron is a lot more widespread then official figures.

I know one lucky girl who is asymptomatic. At least 20- 30 of my sons friends have it.
Talking to one of them and he has had symptoms for 5 days and said that it still doesn't feel like it's getting better.
On the other end of the scale  unvaccinated friend seems to be doing ok after 3 days. That's not an endorsement for anti vax. Simply that it's really random.

I'm just starting to get a stronger headache now. Kind of comes in waves. You cannot get comfortable with Omicron it's annoying as hell.


----------



## bellenuit (29 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> You cannot get comfortable with Omicron it's annoying as hell.




Sleeping is a huge issue for me normally, so I expect Omicron would make it next to impossible to sleep. Are sleeping pills out of the question when you get it?


----------



## Humid (29 December 2021)

__





						Texas Children’s Hospital and Baylor College of Medicine Covid-19 Vaccine Technology Secures Emergency Use Authorization in India | Texas Children's Hospital
					






					www.texaschildrens.org


----------



## basilio (29 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Uh huh have you actually watched any of his videos?
> 
> Here's why it's trash:
> 
> ...




MoXjo you do keep banging on - and trash talking. Seems to be your strong suit.

I was a little surprised at your dismissal of Aaron Collins story of which masks work and why. From what I have read,  you have been very scathing of the capacity of most masks to offer effective protection against infection. Aaron reinforced that point and made clear that one needed far more sophisticated masks to substantially increase ones protection from catching COVID.

No one believes masks are a panacea.  Good masks used well however have been proven to lessen the risk of COVID transmission. Highlighting that fact and explaining what to look for is not "idiotic"  - regardless of your trash talking

In the current situation people will need to take every care if they are going to avoid catching Omicron and particularly with a big viral load.  Your family and friends situation sounds like a challenge. Interesting to hear your reporting on the ongoing developments. Could be a case study.


----------



## macca (29 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Omicron is a lot more widespread then official figures.
> 
> I know one lucky girl who is asymptomatic. At least 20- 30 of my sons friends have it.
> Talking to one of them and he has had symptoms for 5 days and said that it still doesn't feel like it's getting better.
> ...



Are  you able to get out in the sunshine ?

I understand that may be too hard on the eyes but it seems to be a common thread through the treatments and recovery process, Vitamin D from the sun is best.

Hope you bounce back soon


----------



## Humid (29 December 2021)

macca said:


> Are  you able to get out in the sunshine ?
> 
> I understand that may be too hard on the eyes but it seem to be a common thread through the treatments and recovery process, Vitamin D from the sun is best.
> 
> Hope you bounce back soon



No shortage in Perth atm


----------



## moXJO (29 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> Sleeping is a huge issue for me normally, so I expect Omicron would make it next to impossible to sleep. Are sleeping pills out of the question when you get it?



Sleeping is terrible. My sons have the same.

Apparently post covid sleep becomes worse. 
I don't think it's all due to anxiety. If I had sleeping pills I'd probably pop some. And I very rarely use medication.









						New Study Shows Insomnia More Common in COVID-19 Survivors | Sleep Foundation
					

Does COVID-19 have long-lasting effects? New research shows survivors are more likely to experience neurological or psychiatric issues, such as insomnia.




					www.sleepfoundation.org
				




There's a study in there but it definitely feels like sleep patterns get messed up.
There was something about melatonin but this headache smooshed my ability to follow up and verify.


----------



## moXJO (29 December 2021)

basilio said:


> MoXjo you do keep banging on - and trash talking. Seems to be your strong suit.
> 
> I was a little surprised at your dismissal of Aaron Collins story of which masks work and why. From what I have read,  you have been very scathing of the capacity of most masks to offer effective protection against infection. Aaron reinforced that point and made clear that one needed far more sophisticated masks to substantially increase ones protection from catching COVID.
> 
> ...



I'm just trash talking.

But watching 90% of the population use masks wrong is one of the reasons I don't put much weight in their ability to protect yourself.
You have to follow protocols for them to work. So even if you have 95% protective mask, take it off incorrectly, touch your face, touch inside your mask, or the dozens of other things you can do wrong. Then you may have an artificial assumption of safety.

If you wear a mask and everyone else isn't then you may also be under the assumption you are protected. But it's only true in specific circumstances.

No one seems to know the rules or have relaxed to the point they don't care.

So why it should just be judged that it stops you launching aerosols.


----------



## moXJO (29 December 2021)

macca said:


> Are  you able to get out in the sunshine ?
> 
> I understand that may be too hard on the eyes but it seems to be a common thread through the treatments and recovery process, Vitamin D from the sun is best.
> 
> Hope you bounce back soon



Yeah was out in the sun. Eyes are ok but this headache came on. Feels like bits of my brain exploding. 

Didn't really have a sore throat but it feels a little funny now.

I was told these symptoms come first then the lung stuff in week two if you didn't fight it off.


----------



## barney (29 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Yeah was out in the sun. Eyes are ok but this headache came on. Feels like bits of my brain exploding.
> 
> Didn't really have a sore throat but it feels a little funny now.  I was told these symptoms come first then the lung stuff in week two if you didn't fight it off.




@moXJO    You do not want to just sit back and let this thing make its way into your lungs.  That is when it becomes a problem.

Its possibly too late for Quercetin/Zinc/D3/C/Magnesium to have time to help a lot as it should be used as a prophylaxes but I'd still do it anyway.

There are some simple steps you can take however, but get on to them straight away


I would normally pull up some crazy data from an "anti-vax site just to prove I am obviously talking misinformation, but what the heck

I'll be normal this time and post similar information from a regular medical site just so it appears more trustworthy


Bear in mind a couple of very well credentialed "anti covid vaccine" Doctors have been *telling us a similar story for over 18 months*

(Puts soap box back in the cupboard, lol ......)



Iodine nasal spray, or something similar .... get someone to get you some immediately.

Get a bottle of Listerine and gargle the hell out of the back of your throat ...... get some immediately

If you know someone who has a nebuliser, borrow it now  ...... A mixture of saline/small amount of hydrogen peroxide (in the correct ratio of course - see Dr Mercola or similar), and add1-2 drops of Lugols Iodine.  You need to get something to fight the infection, down into your lungs before the virus has any chance of establishing itself there!  Every 1-2 hours!


ps All the best with it.


----------



## Humid (29 December 2021)

barney said:


> @moXJO    You do not want to just sit back and let this thing make its way into your lungs.  That is when it becomes a problem.
> 
> Its possibly too late for Quercetin/Zinc/D3/C/Magnesium to have time to help a lot as it should be used as a prophylaxes but I'd still do it anyway.
> 
> ...



Thyroid problems Dr?


----------



## Humid (29 December 2021)

Cant give financial advice on a stock forum but feel free with medical... lol


----------



## barney (29 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Cant give financial advice on a stock forum but feel free with medical... lol



 Oops, fair point.  Hadn't thought about the advice thingy.

If I have broken protocol @Joe Blow   please add some form of disclaimer to my above post if possible

"My suggestions are not meant to be advice, rather information gained from personal experience, please do your own research"


ps If I have broken protocol, but is helps stop someone from getting sicker than they may otherwise have ....

I'll happily take whatever fine/punishment is due on the chin


----------



## Belli (29 December 2021)

Please note in the link "Disclaimer"  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/about/disclaimer/

"Once publications are selected for inclusion in a database, NLM does not review, evaluate, or judge the quality of individual articles and relies on the scientific publishing process to identify and address problems through published comments, corrections, and retractions (or, as in the case of preprints, withdrawal notices). The publisher is responsible for maintaining the currency of the scientific record and depositing all relevant updates to the appropriate NLM database."


----------



## moXJO (29 December 2021)

Trying to sleep is painful. Headache and body pains. Slept with my arms folded at the elbows and elbow joints extremely painful. Feels like being put into an armbar and hyper-extending the joints. But it's the headache that is the real problem. 

Appetite is gone.

Thanks for any tips. 

Headache up to 6 on the pain scale. It's consistency is the real kicker


----------



## bellenuit (29 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Trying to sleep is painful. Headache and body pains. Slept with my arms folded at the elbows and elbow joints extremely painful. Feels like being put into an armbar and hyper-extending the joints. But it's the headache that is the real problem.
> 
> Appetite is gone.
> 
> ...




I am curious as to what the process is at this stage (in case I end up in the same boat when WA reopens or sooner). I presume you had symptoms and were tested for COVID and that is how you know you have Omicron. Obviously hoping you recover soon, but who is monitoring you to decide that you may need hospitalisation? Is it something you decide if you think you can no longer cope or is there someone monitoring your condition on a regular basis (your GP?) who then might decide hospitalisation is best?

Some positive news for those who have Omicron.









						Omicron may protect against Delta COVID-19 variant, research suggests
					

Since hitting the headlines in November, the Omicron COVID-19 variant has damaged economies, destroyed holidays and blighted the festive season, but scientists say there may be a silver lining to the fast-moving version of the virus.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## moXJO (29 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> I am curious as to what the process is at this stage (in case I end up in the same boat when WA reopens or sooner). I presume you had symptoms and were tested for COVID and that is how you know you have Omicron. Obviously hoping you recover soon, but who is monitoring you to decide that you may need hospitalisation? Is it something you decide if you think you can no longer cope or is there someone monitoring your condition on a regular basis (your GP?) who then might decide hospitalisation is best?
> 
> Some positive news for those who have Omicron.
> 
> ...



So there is a check list you go through to see if you need hospitalisation on your local state health website. You should contact your gp. As for me I was lucky enough  that partner and kids took a short trip that now is a longer holiday.

I have friends and family that drop stuff off. 

But I would recommend.

Stocking up on medication now. Visit the doctor to double check. But anything for headache, body aches, possibly sleeping pills (I know they are frowned upon.

Stock up on electrolytes, lots. I'm dehydrating like a slug in the sun.

At least 5 days of TV dinners. You definitely do not want to cook. Easy nutritious food you can literally just plonk on a plate.

I'd consider a wheat bag for back of neck and shoulders, as hot shower hitting those areas really brings relief.

Your favourite iceblock.

Non scratchy or wooly/ hairy sheets. Possibly a personal preference but I'm glad I've got over 1000 thread count sheets.

I use to use the Listerine method Barney mentioned and it did give relief in the past for the throat.

There was some nasal wash but I can't for the life of me verify it now with this stupid headache.

Stock up and be prepared and it will be less brutal.

My son did 3 rapid tests and the official one. I felt it come on as a 'funny throat'.


----------



## moXJO (29 December 2021)

Panadol didn't work at first. That's the first time I've taken it in years. However the heat to the back of the neck definitely stopped the brain pain explosions I was having. They came back once I got out of the shower but 10 minutes after the Panadol seems to be finally kicking in. 

I'm definitely thinking a neck and shoulder heat bag. The headaches are the worst. Mainly due to them just being non stop consistent.

The other thing is if you think you are going to catch up on a movie or the like, think again. For me, I don't want to do anything where I have to engage my brain or eyes. Laying in a semi lit room seems to be the most comfortable.

Even sht posting seems to much. Luckily Humid and Bas have put on kid gloves like I have cancer or something. Because I feel I'd be destroyed by moderate wit. 

Actually not feeling too bad now. I found some of this crap in the cupboard. And I was desperate. Everything seems to be kicking in nicely. 
While I'm only lying down. It feels a hundred times better without that damn headache. Energy levels ok as well.
Body aches gone.

I'm not one to abuse medication. It takes a lot for me to take it. Only because I figure when I do take it, it will feel like a giant relief from whatever pain I suffered through. 

I'll let this panadol lose effect then when it feels like the symptoms come back I'll try a pain and flu tablet. Probably tomorrow.


----------



## moXJO (30 December 2021)

Between those "voost energy" tablets and the Panadol I'm feeling awesome.  I think the voost had caffeine in it. I'm not a coffee drinker.

But headaches and body aches are gone and while I still feel hot I'm feeling great and going to eat.

Was feeling really negative prior, but am now in great spirits. Feels like I  can watch a movie and I'm now eating and moving about.

Talked to both sons Panadol didn't work for my younger one.

Typed this out at about 11 and still feeling good.


----------



## moXJO (30 December 2021)

Panadol 2 tabs gave me about 6 hours relief.
Took a day/night flu tablet (just 1) and had a rough 3 hours sleep and headaches are back to intense


----------



## Belli (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> Iodine nasal spray, or something similar .... get someone to get you some immediately.






Humid said:


> Cant give financial advice on a stock forum but feel free with medical... lol




@barney for your information, carefully read again the article you posted in the light of this:









						Randomised controlled trials—the gold standard for effectiveness research
					






					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




and ask yourself the question "Does the article comply as a RCT?"

It does not appear to me to come within a bull's roar of being so and is fundamentally a personal opinion.

Just saying.


----------



## rederob (30 December 2021)

Belli said:


> @barney for your information, carefully read again the article you posted in the light of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then of course we learn where @barney looks for medical advice:


barney said:


> If you know someone who has a nebuliser, borrow it now ...... A mixture of saline/small amount of hydrogen peroxide (in the correct ratio of course - *see Dr Mercola* or similar)



The Most Influential Spreader of Coronavirus Misinformation Online​"Dr. Mercola, 67, an osteopathic physician in Cape Coral, Fla., has long been a subject of criticism and government regulatory actions for his promotion of unproven or unapproved treatments."​
Mercola is now infamous for selling supplements based on dodgy medical evidence.


----------



## basilio (30 December 2021)

Treating COVID at home in Tasmania.  Probably coming to other States soon ?









						This man managed his COVID-19 at home. Here's how it went
					

Most Tasmanians who catch COVID-19 will manage it from their own homes. Simon Boot was one of the first to test out the government's COVID@home "virtual ward" program and was impressed.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (30 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Then of course we learn where @barney looks for medical advice:
> 
> The Most Influential Spreader of Coronavirus Misinformation Online​"Dr. Mercola, 67, an osteopathic physician in Cape Coral, Fla., has long been a subject of criticism and government regulatory actions for his promotion of unproven or unapproved treatments."​
> Mercola is now infamous for selling supplements based on dodgy medical evidence.



Making money, living the American dream!


----------



## moXJO (30 December 2021)

Paracetamol seems to work  fine by itself. Enough to minimise the headaches anyway. I don't feel as good as the Paracetamol/hot shower and voost. I'm still getting the occasional brain pain explosion. 
But it has stopped it to about one intense headache pain every 5 minutes. Rather than one every 8 seconds.

I think paracetamol loads up the liver and ibuprofen loads up the kidneys (maybe the other way around). So I'll just have to take that into consideration.

The headaches were so bad that I just want to stick with paracetamol at this stage as it seems to work fine. Even though I'm sure the cold and flu tablets are just paracetamol with an added antihistamine that makes you tired and some other thing that unblocks your nose. I only took one tablet as well, so probably under dosed.

Just heard my 5yo daughter has most likely got it. She had a fever last night but was up and running around. Unfortunately she is with a group of about 12 people so they all probably have it. I'll let everyone know how it affects kids. Seems to be a 3-4 day incubation period. So now I need to get better to look after the next lot. 

Hopefully my posts have taken some of the fear out of what Omicron actually is. I've definitely had worse flu's. But nothing as annoying as this has been in terms of headaches.

Probably can just stock up on ibuprofen or paracetamol  and see what works best . Those voost energy tabs really made a difference to my energy levels. Which was probably just caffeine. But I could function fine off them.

If you are unvaccinated: the people I know that are unvaccinated seemed to get similar symptoms. I'll say this though: There will be a point while you are sick that you will probably regret not having the shot.

I'll post a bit less now unless some weird symptoms come up. I know roughly 50+ people with it now. So be prepared when it hits your state.


----------



## DB008 (30 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> So be prepared when it hits your state.




Sounds like your on the mend, so about a week in total?

Big numbers coming out of all states today -

NSW 12,226
VIC 5,137
QLD 2,222
SA 1,472 (yesterday)
TAS 92

This is only people getting tested. I'm sure the real numbers are a magnitude higher.


----------



## qldfrog (30 December 2021)

Belli said:


> @barney for your information, carefully read again the article you posted in the light of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's the risk of cleaning your nose is the actual question..so why not?


----------



## moXJO (30 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> Sounds like your on the mend, so about a week in total?



3 days so far, 2.5  if you just want to count the symptom onset.
I think I felt it come on about lunchtime Tuesday.
Still got the headaches, but otherwise not in bad shape today. The literal difference was paracetamol. 
There's some "under the surface" stuff I can feel but it's only minor.

Official figures are way off in nsw. The lines take 4-26 hours and not many can be bothered.


----------



## barney (30 December 2021)

@Belli   Your point about RCT's is well taken.  In a perfect world I agree, but when time is of the essence, protocols sometimes need to be changed/fast tracked I guess.

@rederob :    I referenced Mercola because he gives appropriate ratios of saline/HP    There are plenty of other medical people who advocate the practice.

@Knobby22  :    As per "Red" above, although, regarding Mercola particularly, no one can blame him for making his living from his knowledge, regardless of whether we do or don't agree with his methods etc.  

Discounting that some folk seem to assume all anti vaxxers are misguided/potential loonies for questioning main stream narratives; 

Getting back to Nebulising with Saline/HP/Iodine, should we also consider Charles Farr and all the other Doctors who advocate his work are misinformed "anti-vaxxers" as well?  That would seem a little unfair.


----------



## rederob (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> Getting back to Nebulising with Saline/HP/Iodine, should we also consider Charles Farr and all the other Doctors who advocate his work are misinformed "anti-vaxxers" as well?  That would seem a little unfair.



You are choosing to believe a proven charlatan in Mercola, and advocating use of treatments which most Australian doctors would laugh at.
As to IV hydrogen peroxide, or nebulising, there is no evidence it's of benefit, but it's proven to have harms.
Would you like snake oil with that?


----------



## Belli (30 December 2021)

There have been enough snake oil proponents advising on the use of hydrogen peroxide as a cure or preventative for Covid, the Asthma and Allergy Association of America had to issue a warning on its use.









						DANGER! Don’t Nebulize Hydrogen Peroxide and Breathe It to Try to Treat or Prevent COVID-19
					

A concerning and dangerous trend is circulating on social media channels like Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok. People are breathing in hydrogen peroxide through nebulizers to try to prevent or treat COVID-19. DO NOT put hydrogen peroxide into your nebulizer and breathe it in. This is dangerous! It...




					community.aafa.org
				




"Hydrogen peroxide can be used as a cleaner and stain remover, and can cause tissue damage if you swallow it or breathe it in. According to the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry:



> "Hydrogen peroxide can be toxic if ingested, inhaled, or by contact with the skin or eyes. Inhalation of household strength hydrogen peroxide (3%) can cause respiratory irritation. Exposure to household strength hydrogen. peroxide can cause mild ocular irritation. Inhalation of vapors from concentrated (higher than 10%) solutions may result in severe pulmonary irritation."



A nebulizer is a “breathing machine” used to treat asthma. It turns liquid asthma medicine into a mist. You then breathe in the medicine through a mask or mouthpiece.

Only use asthma medicine prescribed by your doctor in your nebulizer. Other chemicals can be harmful to your lungs."

And before you go there if it is diluted to such an extent it is not harmful to humans if ingested, it is too weak to have any effect.


----------



## bellenuit (30 December 2021)

Phone numbers obviously don't apply in Australia.









						Covid: How to look after yourself at home
					

What can you expect if you have Covid, and when should you get extra help?



					www.bbc.com


----------



## mullokintyre (30 December 2021)

i got into trouble from some folk on ASF when I suggested you should never get between Big pharma and a bucket of money.
It seems that any suggestion that  they are not ethical and are not doing all they can to help the world is nothing but conspriacy theory.
Well =, according to that giant conspiracy  producer, Wall Street Journal


> A high-stakes legal battle is taking shape over lucrative patent rights for Covid-19 vaccines, with drug companies pitted against each other and government and academic scientists over who invented what.
> 
> The US government and Moderna, whose collaboration led to one of the most widely used shots, have fought over who discovered a key component and owns its rights. Meantime, Pfizer and BioNTech, makers of another leading vaccine, are in a patent battle with a smaller company, and some analysts think they could end up facing off against Moderna.
> 
> ...



And from NY Times


> Moderna’s patent application names several employees as the sole inventors of a crucial component of its coronavirus vaccine, excluding three government scientists.



Since the above article, Moderna has "paused" its court battle, not dropped it.
From  Washington Post


> Moderna is pausing a patent dispute with the federal government over its groundbreaking coronavirus vaccine, saying it is “grateful” to government scientists who collaborated with the company and wants to “avoid any distraction” in the fight against the omicron variant.
> The decision could have implications for the Biden administration’s global vaccination strategy, as officials look for leverage to share mRNA vaccine discoveries with developing countries in an effort to ramp up worldwide supply.
> It is also expected to turn down the heat on the Cambridge, Mass., vaccine maker, which projected as much as $18 billion in sales from its vaccine this year, and has received stinging criticism for doing too little to share its breakthroughs with poorer nations.
> 
> ...



a gotta love that last line, what bull ****.


> “The Company would like to avoid any distraction to the important public-private efforts ongoing to address emerging SARS-CoV-2 variants, including Omicron,” Moderna said in a statement on Friday night shared with The Washington Post. Moderna also said it filed a continuation that will allow it to pursue discussions about the patent at a later date.



So one might ask what concessions will be made by both sides to get this over the line.
Who will get what , who will be shafted, who will be bribed.
Will the SEC step in and charge Moderna over its issuing  projections of 18bill in sales when it knew(or should have known), that the feds would not let it escape with the claim that only Moderna scientists were involved in the discovery,
Mick


----------



## barney (30 December 2021)

rederob said:


> You are choosing to believe a proven charlatan in Mercola, and advocating use of treatments which most Australian doctors would laugh at.
> As to IV hydrogen peroxide, or nebulising, there is no evidence it's of benefit, but it's proven to have harms.
> Would you like snake oil with that?



Red:   Mercola is just one of many who would disagree with the report you referenced written by Bruce Y Lee (catchy name). Bruce used to work for John Hopkins which unfortunately may also bring out the conspiracy theorist in me, but I will resist, lol.

Mercola's "ratio" for HP/saline is one of the most conservative of all advocates.  Some people have been known to recommend far higher concentrates which even he is cautious about.   He also highly suggests "Food Grade HP" should be used.  Doesnt sound like the sort of concerns a charlatan would be too concerned about but who knows.

Anyway, after Bruce Lee got through rubbishing the use of HP in a rather condescending tone, and stating just how dangerous it apparently is. 

We see that Duke University recommend cleaning face masks with the very same product .... surely not!

And what  do we do with face masks .... breathe through them  ... doh!   





ps  Apart from all the whoo har over the use of HP,  it is the addition of the 1-2 drops of Iodine which is apparently the most useful ingredient in stopping virus replication, so for anyone concerned about using HP (I use it, no issues ..... no covid so far touch wood), just nebulize saline and Iodine ... assuming thats not going to kill us all as well


----------



## rederob (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> Red:   Mercola is just one of many who would disagree with the report you referenced written by Bruce Y Lee (catchy name). Bruce used to work for John Hopkins which unfortunately may also bring out the conspiracy theorist in me, but I will resist, lol.
> 
> Mercola's "ratio" for HP/saline is one of the most conservative of all advocates.  Some people have been known to recommend far higher concentrates which even he is cautious about.   He also highly suggests "Food Grade HP" should be used.  Doesnt sound like the sort of concerns a charlatan would be too concerned about but who knows.
> 
> ...



Your points are the same as Trump's suggestion of using bleach.
Start using reputable sites and you might discover how covid is being treated by clinicians rather than snake oil.


----------



## Belli (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> Bruce used to work for John Hopkins which unfortunately may also bring out the conspiracy theorist in me, but I will resist, lol.




Good as, for a conspiracy to work, only a very few people can be in on the "secret" and there are way too many people in organisations such as John Hopkins, CDC, Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, MIT, ANU, Uni of Sydney, Melbourne Uni, Monash, Garvan, Doherty, Kirby, Université de Paris and there may be a couple of others I believe, to be able to keep anything secret for very long.


----------



## Knobby22 (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> Red:   Mercola is just one of many who would disagree with the report you referenced written by Bruce Y Lee (catchy name). Bruce used to work for John Hopkins which unfortunately may also bring out the conspiracy theorist in me, but I will resist, lol.
> 
> Mercola's "ratio" for HP/saline is one of the most conservative of all advocates.  Some people have been known to recommend far higher concentrates which even he is cautious about.   He also highly suggests "Food Grade HP" should be used.  Doesnt sound like the sort of concerns a charlatan would be too concerned about but who knows.
> 
> ...



That's for cleaning of masts, not for breathing in. It would really hurt you.








						Still Cleaning CPAP with Hydrogen Peroxide? It's Time to Reconsider. - CleanCPAP
					

You may have heard that cleaning CPAP with hydrogen peroxide is a good solution. Here’s why you might want to think twice about H2O2.




					cleancpap.net


----------



## barney (30 December 2021)

Now fair go Red ..... My above responses were totally aimed at trying to suggest  @moXJO some quick accessible home relief to try and stop the virus getting past his throat into his lungs because is currently suffering with Covid.  I'm totally aware of the various hospital treatments but we cant go and buy them at Woollies of course.

Did Trump actually suggest Bleach??    I know they treated him with hydroxychloroquine which kind of made it a political punching ball.

I thought he commented asking whether some kind of  disinfectant might work. He meant well


----------



## IFocus (30 December 2021)

Take care Mo hope you and sons recover soon, thanks for posting up your progress really helpful for the rest of us, any idea if and when you should think about O2 levels?


----------



## rederob (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> Now fair go Red ..... My above responses were totally aimed at trying to suggest  @moXJO some quick accessible home relief to try and stop the virus getting past his throat into his lungs because is currently suffering with Covid.  I'm totally aware of the various hospital treatments but we cant go and buy them at Woollies of course.
> 
> Did Trump actually suggest Bleach??    I know they treated him with hydroxychloroquine which kind of made it a political punching ball.
> 
> I thought he commented asking whether some kind of  disinfectant might work. He meant well



Not sure how your treatment suggestions can be credible as no reputable doctors recommend them.
Most people with covid have had it for at least 2 days before becoming symptomatic, and by that stage the things you referenced would be too late to have an impact.  That is, the virus is now part of you and your immune system becomes your front line defence. 
Good health and nutrition combined with vaccination to bolster your immune system are likely better than the unproven and unrecommended ideas you have posted.
If you personally believe in what you are taking then an equivalent to the placebo effect could work out for you, although this is not usually likely to be curative, as distinct from reducing the effects of symptoms.  However, some of the treatments you have referenced have harmful side effects so I am balancing medically inappropriate ideas with a suggestion that ill people visit their doctors for appropriate treatment if their immune systems have not prevented covid symptoms from worsening.

Omicron and double vaxxing to date has proven to have a comparatively low incidence of hospitalisation, and @moXJO's detailed story so far is typical of the many experiences I have read about.  In the UK a majority of people over 65 (95% from memory) have also had booster vaccines.  We are behind the eight ball here, but I will be lining up in February when it's available at the 4 month point (UK made it available at 3 months).


----------



## barney (30 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Not sure how your treatment suggestions can be credible as no reputable doctors recommend them.
> Most people with covid have had it for at least 2 days before becoming symptomatic, and by that stage the things you referenced would be too late to have an impact.  That is, the virus is now part of you and your immune system becomes your front line defence.
> Good health and nutrition combined with vaccination to bolster your immune system are likely better than the unproven and unrecommended ideas you have posted.
> If you personally believe in what you are taking then an equivalent to the placebo effect could work out for you, although this is not usually likely to be curative, as distinct from reducing the effects of symptoms.  However, some of the treatments you have referenced have harmful side effects so I am balancing medically inappropriate ideas with a suggestion that ill people visit their doctors for appropriate treatment if their immune systems have not prevented covid symptoms from worsening.
> ...



Good post Red and I agree with some of it, respect your narrative in other parts, but also disagree with certain aspects.  No surprise there I'm sure  

I'll post a study after this post on one aspect on some of the "medically inappropriate ideas" I have mentioned above

Totally agree with the nutrition/good health aspect. I personally have a regimen of prophylaxes "treatments" in place, to make sure my immune system is up to scratch for when I do catch it, and I probably will. You state these precautions are unproven and unrecommended. I respect your opinion to say that.  

That aside, I gargle with listerine before i go out and when I get home.  At the hint of a scratchy throat (had many of those recently) I use my "inappropriate" nebulizer once a day (iodine/H2O2) .... tested 4 times for covid ..... so far so good/negative

I personally know over a dozen people who recently had covid.  Probably slightly more un-vaxxed than vaxxed but similar.  All had the same outcome. Most had similar symptoms as @moXJO  is experiencing.   
My Son became symptomatic a few days after being suspicious of symptoms  .... severe headaches for 2 days ..... ran out of puff easily for a couple of days.  Total loss of taste for a week or so/returned gradually after another week, so likely had Delta.   Unvaxxed and basically took no medications other than a few panadol.  Great to be young and healthy!  I was a close contact and probably should have caught it, but didnt for some reason ..... lucky.

Given the exponential increase in cases across Oz and our high Vax rates, I think its safe to suggest that the un-vaxxed have no more effect on the spread of the disease than the jabbed at this point.  MS Media still seems to promote otherwise at every opportunity but that is not worth arguing about.

My opinion, the Omicron fella can infect anyone, and the degree of sickness (in my small world of experience) indicates that being vaccinated seems to make bugger all difference to the outcome when you do catch it.  Of course I respect everyone's right to get jabbed if that is what they choose. I still have too many unanswered questions regarding  the whole scenario to consider it an option.  Cheers.


----------



## wayneL (30 December 2021)

FYI


----------



## barney (30 December 2021)

Excerpt from a small study involving various therapies *including Nebulized H2O2*

Bear in mind this study was printed in *July 2020* when Covid had "No treatments"

*Zero deaths* and fast recovery rates

One Practice has been using nebulized H2O2 for* over 2 decades

Zero adverse reactions* to hydrogen peroxide in the study

I dont expect to convince anyone, but the process looks pretty safe if administered correctly

Study Results etc


----------



## rederob (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> Totally agree with the nutrition/good health aspect. I personally have a regimen of prophylaxes "treatments" in place, to make sure my immune system is up to scratch for when I do catch it, and I probably will. You state these precautions are unproven and unrecommended. I respect your opinion to say that.



No, there is a difference between a precaution and a treatment.
I suggest that people take every reasonable precaution as possible, and if that's taking supplements or gargling, or being OCD on hand sanitising, then go for it.

Treatments are those things that are medically proven to assist in recovery. 

In relation to Omicron, it appears to have been present in a person for a very long time and mutated massively in that period without killing the host.  (The other possibility is that it went human to animal and then back to human, as there is nothing genetically close.)  That's a simple explanation of its infectiousness and its presently-believed lesser serious nature.  WRT vaxxed versus unvaxxed for Omicron the early info suggests vaxxing is only mitigating serious disease.  Still early days, so can't be definitive.  Hospitalisations are definitely increasing but deaths are not yet following the numbers.  Again, not enough info to tell vaxxed from unvaxxed.

(Edit: I read your study.  Medically worthless.  You could have given them chocolate and got the same results!)


----------



## DB008 (30 December 2021)

Why people have mixed feelings about what our leaders are saying on the vaccine

Certainly interesting with Omicron on the rampage






.​


----------



## barney (30 December 2021)

rederob said:


> (Edit: I read your study.  Medically worthless.  You could have given them chocolate and got the same results!)




The fact that you read it means I am more than happy to give you a "thumbs up"    


My best M8 of the last 40 odd years has almost exactly the same views as you and @Belli do ...... He is imploring me to get vaccinated.

I present him with a lot of similar stuff I do here because I know he will give me his honest opinion

We don't agree on a lot of stuff, but that doesn't stop the discussion of opposing thoughts/ideas etc .... 

Healthy disagreement is always better than unreasonable dogma.

ps I may have more curve balls to throw up yet, lol


----------



## wayneL (30 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> Why people have mixed feelings about what our leaders are saying on the vaccine
> 
> Certainly interesting with Omicron on the rampage
> 
> ...




How vaxes are *supposed to work. Highlighting how these aren't actual vaccines


----------



## rederob (30 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> How vaxes are *supposed to work. Highlighting how these aren't actual vaccines



Another zero evidence post.
Contrast your idea with thousands of studies proving the opposite.


----------



## moXJO (30 December 2021)

Daughter just gave a positive result. She's still running around.

Also on the hydrogen peroxide, it's actually a mouthwash and gargle at 3%. Old timers use to use it. You can buy it from the chemists made up at that strength. I used it a while back. Hadn't heard of the nebuliser method. 


IFocus said:


> Take care Mo hope you and sons recover soon, thanks for posting up your progress really helpful for the rest of us, any idea if and when you should think about O2 levels?



So here's the information from nsw state health. Keeping in mind I'm from the "It's ok to die" state.

Any time you feel like breathing is a problem I'd seek immediate advice and don't downplay the symptoms.
You can immediate contact a gp on a positive result and just check in. I think each state has a hotline as well. 





__





						Fact sheets - How to manage COVID-19 safely at home
					

Most people can manage COVID-19 at home, with some simple advice. If you have tested positive for COVID-19 and are pregnant, please call the NSW Health COVID-19 Care at Home Support Line.




					www.health.nsw.gov.au


----------



## moXJO (30 December 2021)

Omicron seems like clockwork. 
Everyone whether vaxxed or not have had similar durations, symptoms and intensity. However, you can apparently still catch delta easily after Omicron and briefly saw that you can catch Omicron twice in a month.

My sons were pretty much over it today which is day 4 with only minor symptoms. For me day 4 is tomorrow and my headache has reduced now to a much more tolerable level. In fact at this stage don't need panadol.

Appetite still severely lacking.

Blocked nose and cough maybe once an hour (which gives a headache).

Head slightly stuffy.

Still feel like sht though. 

Members of the family are starting to go down now.
All almost exactly on a 3 day incubation (we are talking to the hour in some cases). All felt completely fine and then noticed slight symptoms. Which then rapidly deteriorated into the first day symptoms.

So I'll be looking after a few people tomorrow. It's the unexpected that makes it worse. And one of the reasons I tried to detail it out. 

Perfect end to 2021. That year was the worst I've had ever.


----------



## barney (30 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Daughter just gave a positive result. She's still running around.
> 
> Also on the hydrogen peroxide, it's actually a mouthwash and gargle at 3%. Old timers use to use it. You can buy it from the chemists made up at that strength. I used it a while back. Hadn't heard of the nebuliser method.




You sound pretty positive @moXJO  .... lets hope its all up from here!



ps Discl.  Not advice  ... just a suggestions below for anyone interested

Re the H2O2  ... as a mouth wash it is apparently recommended at 50-50 with water (that is with HP at 3%) Don't want to irritate the mouth unnecessarily.   

As for the Nebulizer ratio ....... You add just *1ml for every 29ml of saline*  ....... yes that is *29* parts saline to* 1* part (3%) hydrogen peroxide

So basically saline with a twist  

Dont forget the 1-2 drops of Lugols Iodine .... That is actually the real fire power against viruses.



Ps If you die from that HP moX, I dont want to hear any complaints. 

My middle name is Moderna so I have zero liability and you have no rights


----------



## barney (30 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> Why people have mixed feelings about what our leaders are saying on the vaccine
> 
> Certainly interesting with Omicron on the rampage
> 
> ...





Hey @DB008   For some reason I can't see the vid  ....  Maybe my ad blocker is causing that?  Possible to insert a "Link"?  Cheers.


----------



## moXJO (30 December 2021)

barney said:


> You sound pretty positive @moXJO  .... lets hope its all up from here!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They sell it in woolies or Coles at 3% as a mouthwash or gargle as well already made up. I used it to clean out a bad tooth.


----------



## barney (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> They sell it in woolies or Coles at 3% as a mouthwash or gargle as well already made up. I used it to clean out a bad tooth.




So Woollies and Coles are recommending it a double my conservative ratio  

Damn ... I smell a conspiracy theory coming on, lol

I use it in my ears at 3%  so I doubt anyone's mouth will be in any danger

Appreciate the updates.


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

So far the 5yo have a temperature but are still fine. Possible my 77 yo parents have been exposed. So if there are any out of the ordinary symptoms or severity I'll let the forum know. 5yo are obviously unvaccinated. Both parents double dosed. 
It takes a lot to put my father down so I'll let you know.

I'll try the Paracetamol and voost energy tab to see if it perks up wife 1.
I just want the most basic easily accessible medication/supplement I can find. 

But Barney's talk about mouthwash/gargle has me wondering if it reduces viral load in the throat so you don't spit it round as much.
Unfortunately the data is a little scetchy:









						Could certain mouthwashes reduce transmissibility of COVID-19? - Evidence-Based Dentistry
					

Data sources Six electronic databases were searched including PubMed/Medline, Embase, Web of Science, Scopus, Cochrane, and Latin American and Caribbean Literature in Health Science (LILACS). Grey literature was also examined. There were no restrictions with regards to language, time of...




					www.nature.com
				












						COVID-19 and Mouthwash
					

Mouthwashes are commonly prescribed by dentists to help fight against microbes that cause plaque in the oral cavity.



					www.news-medical.net
				




Here's what I don't get. Why is it that we have pumped $billions into all things covid, yet I'm still scrounging round for studies on treatment/reduction methods. We just get generic and often wrong bs out of the media.


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

barney said:


> So Woollies and Coles are recommending it a double my conservative ratio
> 
> Damn ... I smell a conspiracy theory coming on, lol
> 
> ...



Yeah sorry I think I diluted it.


----------



## barney (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Here's what I don't get. Why is it that we have pumped $billions into all things covid, yet I'm still scrounging round for studies on treatment/reduction methods. We just get generic and often wrong bs out of the media.




+100% agree    From the start its always felt like fear generation has been the agenda.


Dr Peter McCullough is now considered an anti vaxxer due to his stance on vaccine safety. Untrue of course, although he does not endorse covid "vaccines"

Much of what he and others were being vilified for early on by uneducated journalists posing as science "experts" ie. His early treatment approach/protocols ... Are now being used .

Part of a short video where he talks about nasal spray/mouthwash etc.  Good old Iodine again.

ps @moXJO   At 1.53am earlier, I hope you are getting some sleep?





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## DB008 (31 December 2021)

Are we heading down this path?


Netherlands Announces Plan To Give People Up to Six Doses of COVID Vaccine​
Hugo de Jonge, health minister of The Netherlands, has indicated the country could be preparing another three coronavirus booster vaccines.​​De Jonge wrote a letter to his country's parliament Wednesday suggesting the Netherlands should consider additional rounds of booster vaccines to fight new variants, with two of these in 2022 and another shot in 2023.​​The letter also said that the Netherlands has enough booster vaccines for its current booster campaign.​​In the letter, De Jonge wrote: "Certainly because only half of a regular vaccine is needed for a booster dose of Moderna, we now have sufficient vaccines for the current booster campaign and there is ample basis for possible extra booster rounds in the second quarter and the autumn of 2022 and in 2023.​​The Netherlands has bought vaccine stock in bulk in order to avoid shortages.​​The country has ordered nearly 6 million additional vaccines alongside the 12 million already bought from Pfizer/Biontech.​​There is already an agreement in place with Pfizer/Biontech for at least another 17.5 million doses before 2023. It is unclear who will be eligible for these booster coronavirus vaccine shots in 2022 and 2023.​

More on link below...

https://www.newsweek.com/netherlands-vaccination-booster-coronavirus-covid-shot-1664296


.​


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## Belli (31 December 2021)

Even the famous (infamous?) doctor gets a mention.









						The COVID-19 “Vaccine Holocaust”: The latest antivaccine messaging
					

The latest antivaccine disinformation consists of pointing to the large numbers of reports of death (and other adverse events) to the VAERS database. It's nonsense.



					sciencebasedmedicine.org
				




And misuse of data by various groups which have an alternative view of Covid treatments.









						As 2021 shambles to a close, the misuse of VAERS by antivaxxers continues apace
					

Misuse of the VAERS database to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt about vaccines has been a favorite technique of antivaxxers for decades. Unfortunately, 2021 was the year when this particular antiv



					sciencebasedmedicine.org


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## rederob (31 December 2021)

barney said:


> Much of what he and others were being vilified for early on by uneducated journalists posing as science "experts" ie. His early treatment approach/protocols ... Are now being used .



I doubt McCullough was vilified for saying what was proposed way back in 2020 !
Early studies recognised the role of the nose as an initial site of infection, and these findings reinforced the importance of wearing masks:
"If the nose is the dominant initial site from which lung infections are seeded, then the widespread use of masks to protect the nasal passages, as well as any therapeutic strategies that reduce virus in the nose, such as nasal irrigation or antiviral nasal sprays, could be beneficial," study co-author Dr. Richard Boucher said in a university news release.​
Do everything you can (so long as it's safe) as precautionary measures, and that includes being vaccinated.  However, once symptomatic there are treatment protocols in place, so listen to advice from your GP ahead of anything you read from tweets or see on YouTube.


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## DB008 (31 December 2021)

I always thought that the VAERS self reporting system was going to get abused. It was bound to happen.

Had a booster the recently, so l guess my antibodies are good for another ~5 months and with Omicron lurking around it's only a matter of time before l get covid-19 (like everyone else). Once l've had Omicron and now my booster, that's it, I have longer lasting antibodies with natural immunity than the jab (combination of both now). For me, Covid-19 is then over and l won't be taking any more 'boosters' unless a strain with a 50% death rate appears.


Omicron has also shown to give antibodies which can fight off Delta
https://secureservercdn.net/50.62.1...loads/2021/12/MEDRXIV-2021-268439v1-Sigal.pdf



.


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## DB008 (31 December 2021)

.​


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## Knobby22 (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Omicron seems like clockwork.
> Everyone whether vaxxed or not have had similar durations, symptoms and intensity. However, you can apparently still catch delta easily after Omicron and briefly saw that you can catch Omicron twice in a month.
> 
> My sons were pretty much over it today which is day 4 with only minor symptoms. For me day 4 is tomorrow and my headache has reduced now to a much more tolerable level. In fact at this stage don't need panadol.
> ...



Senjaya Senanayake, infectious diseases  physician ANU, is saying evidence suggests that catching Omicron does protect against Delta. 

Also he stated most hospitalised infections of Omicron in NSW are unvaccinated.

Hospitalisation however isn't ventilator, so far this variant appears much less harmful.


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## DB008 (31 December 2021)

When this report came out (below), it was ridiculed by most people in the media.

It will happen


Omicron cases could hit 200,000 a day, modelling shows​
​Surging Omicron infections will overwhelm the health system unless some restrictions return, according to modelling prepared for national cabinet that also recommends bringing coronavirus vaccine boosters forward.​​The Doherty Institute modelling predicts that without low-to-medium restrictions such as density and visitor limits, waning vaccine protection against the Omicron variant puts Australia on track to hit about 200,000 cases a day by late January or early February.​​“Boosters alone will not be fast enough to halt the spread of Omicron,” the modelling, seen by _The Sydney Morning Herald_ and _The Age_, says.​​The modelling by a team of researchers including professors Jodie McVernon and James McCaw says rapidly growing case numbers would lift hospitalisation rates to 4000 a day. This would push emergency departments to capacity and fill the nation’s intensive care units, with between 8000 and 10,000 patients admitted to ICUs.​​It assumes only baseline public health safety measures – no stay-at-home-orders, low density requirements, no retail restrictions, schools open – and the partial test, trace, isolate and quarantine responses of a strained contact tracing system.​​The modelling also assumes that, in addition to being much more transmissible than the Delta variant, Omicron causes equally severe disease, stating that “all international modelling groups are using this conservative assumption”. This is despite early data out of South Africa suggesting Omicron may be less severe.​


https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-doherty-modelling-warns-20211221-p59ja0.html​




US sets new record for daily Covid cases as Omicron spreads across country​
​A startling 488,000 cases were reported Wednesday, but even that figure is likely an undercount of the true number​​The United States set a new record for daily infections of Covid-19 after reporting almost half a million positive cases as the surge of the Omicron variant spreads across the country.​​On Wednesday there were 488,000 cases of the virus in the US, according to a New York Times database. However, even that figure is likely a serious undercount of the true numbers of positive cases, due to the rising popularity of home tests and people who are infected but asymptomatic.​​The seven-day rolling average of cases in America is also soaring to a new high of more than 265,000 per day on average, a surge driven largely by the highly contagious Omicron variant.​​“It’s unlike anything we’ve ever seen, even at the peak of the prior surges of Covid,” Dr James Phillips, chief of disaster medicine at George Washington University Hospital, told CNN.​​New cases per day have more than doubled over the past two weeks, eclipsing the old mark of 250,000, set in mid-January during the height of the last winter peak of the pandemic, according to data kept by Johns Hopkins University.​​Record case counts are being logged in states and cities across the US, including New Jersey, New York and Chicago. In Georgia, 200 national guard troops are helping staff testing sites and hospitals and in Arizona and New Mexico, federal medical personnel have deployed to bolster the local health services.​​The fast-spreading mutant version of the virus has cast a pall over Christmas and the new year, forcing communities to scale back or call off their festivities just weeks after it seemed as if Americans were about to enjoy an almost normal holiday season.​​The number of Americans now in the hospital with Covid-19 is running at around 60,000, or about half the figure seen in January, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported.​​While hospitalizations sometimes lag behind cases, the hospital figures may reflect both the protection conferred by the vaccine and the possibility that Omicron is not making people as sick as previous versions.​​Covid-19 deaths in the US have climbed over the past two weeks from an average of 1,200 per day to around 1,500.​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/30/us-new-daily-covid-cases-record-omicron-spreads​

I wonder if CNN has the Covid-19 tracker on their screens? It's all Trumps fault hey...


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## moXJO (31 December 2021)

barney said:


> ps @moXJO   At 1.53am earlier, I hope you are getting some sleep?



Sleep patterns are out. Possibly due to bad management on my part.

Couple of new symptoms popping up when I wake:
Sore throat.
Lungs feel strained.

I'm thinking it's just from mouth breathing while I sleep as they both seem temporary.
I now have a blocked nose that's more consistent. Headache comes and goes, but is almost non existent.


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## Humid (31 December 2021)

DB008 said:


> When this report came out (below), it was ridiculed by most people in the media.
> 
> It will happen
> 
> ...



You didnt quote this bit 2 paragraphs down....did you miss it?

CDC data already suggests that unvaccinated people are hospitalized at much higher rates than those who have been inoculated, even if the effectiveness of the shots decreases over time, he said.


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## IFocus (31 December 2021)

I always take these reports with a grain of salt but generally pretty consistent









						Front-line workers describe symptoms they've observed in latest Covid wave
					

“I’m not seeing people who have got two doses and a booster and are coming in profoundly short of breath. It’s just not happening," one doctor said.




					www.nbcnews.com


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## moXJO (31 December 2021)

IFocus said:


> I always take these reports with a grain of salt but generally pretty consistent
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It looks like it's a booster ad push in the form of an article. US media has lost its way totally. I'm not saying that boosters for at risk groups shouldn't be done. Just the scare and fear tactics being used are coming across as suss.

Do we have stats out of Africa on unvaccinated?

Even stats on the hospitalisations of unvaxed here?

I've seen a few deaths of vaccinated and unvaccinated but the few that I did see had underlying conditions.



This also popped up and NSW seemed it was considering it. The premier "PerTrump" will be drummed out before it's considered. It's a sneaky way to attack the healthcare system. Stir up the politics of "unvaccinated" to undermine the fortress wall and create a weak point.


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## moXJO (31 December 2021)

I should clarify the above on unvaccinated.
Delta I think unvaccinated are hit harder and will be hospitalised.

Omicron I haven't seen figures yet as it's been a bit mixed with delta.


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## DB008 (31 December 2021)

Humid said:


> You didnt quote this bit 2 paragraphs down....did you miss it?
> 
> CDC data already suggests that unvaccinated people are hospitalized at much higher rates than those who have been inoculated, even if the effectiveness of the shots decreases over time, he said.




No, I try to never copy the whole articles (I'm sure there is a rule against this on ASF).

Sorry if it looked like l was hiding something (I wasn't) but l always leave a link for people to read the rest of the article. You can draw your own conclusions whatever that may be (I don't care).


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## DB008 (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> This also popped up and NSW seemed it was considering it. The premier "PerTrump" will be drummed out before it's considered. It's a sneaky way to attack the healthcare system. Stir up the politics of "unvaccinated" to undermine the fortress wall and create a weak point.




I remember a German doctor saying similar things.


Anti-vaxxers should forgo ventilators, German doctor says​A German geneticist has said those who turn down the new COVID-19 vaccine should carry a note also refusing intensive care treatment. He also said medical decisions should not be left to conspiracy theorists.​​People who refuse the COVID-19 vaccine should not be able to access ventilators and other emergency measures if they become ill, a member of Germany's Ethics Council told the mass circulation _Bild_ newspaper.​​"Whoever wants to refuse the vaccination outright, he should, please also always carry a document with the inscription: 'I don't want to be vaccinated!'" Wolfram Henn, a human geneticist, told _Bild _on Saturday. "I want to leave the protection against the disease to others! I want, if I get sick, to leave my intensive care bed and ventilator to others."​
https://www.dw.com/en/anti-vaxxers-should-forgo-ventilators-german-doctor-says/a-55996805​

I'm sure there have been more


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## Belli (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Sleep patterns are out. Possibly due to bad management on my part.
> 
> Couple of new symptoms popping up when I wake:
> Sore throat.
> ...




You are going through a pretty torrid time at the moment.  However, overall your posts indicate you are improving but slowly.

Best wishes to you and hope you get back to good health very soon.  How are your sons going?


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## barney (31 December 2021)

Belli said:


> Even the famous (infamous?) doctor gets a mention.




Yeah its a pretty aggressive article against Peter McCullough especially given they are looking at the *same VAERS data*. They agree on the numbers, just not the allocation of what caused the numbers.

Its  no surprise that David Gorski doesn't get along with Peter McCullough of course.  *Gorski *has been partly funded by the *NIH and the DOD for the past 20 years.* Both are deeply intertwined in the Vaccine rollouts, whereas McCullough does not believe the covid vaccines have passed sufficient safety regulations.  


Gorski is a known social media frequenter who does seem to enjoy stirring the ant-vax pot.  I'm not sure whether that is to promote his online profile, or whether it maintains his funding arrangements from higher up the food chain. Both are reasonable assumptions I think.



Looking at the data/numbers presented, there were *3317 deaths* listed (back *in MAY 2021*) on *VAERS* (CDC /US Gov. data)

Gorski is stating that causation cannot be proven for the 3317 Deaths post vaccine (*remember this is in MAY 2021*)

McCullough states that the data/deaths is far in excess of what can be considered safe and the vaccines should be pulled from the market.



Here we are *7 months later* and I wonder how Gorski can dismiss the current Death rates post vaccine (High % within 48 hours)

As at *17th DEC 2021 *........ Well *over 20,000 deaths registered* with around *80%* of those deaths *within 1 week of vaccination*



Comparison of the Flu vaccine deaths post vax (Blue) to Covid (Red)

Causation proven or not, those numbers are disproportionate and alarming.


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## wayneL (31 December 2021)

The stupidity of masks, and why they'll do sfa stop the Moronic.


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## rederob (31 December 2021)

barney said:


> Yeah its a pretty aggressive article against Peter McCullough especially given they are looking at the *same VAERS data*. They agree on the numbers, just not the allocation of what caused the numbers.
> 
> Its  no surprise that David Gorski doesn't get along with Peter McCullough of course.  *Gorski *has been partly funded by the *NIH and the DOD for the past 20 years.* Both are deeply intertwined in the Vaccine rollouts, whereas McCullough does not believe the covid vaccines have passed sufficient safety regulations.
> 
> ...



Why are you persisting @barney?
Australian data shows that whatever claims you are making have no reliable basis, and the sites you go to are rubbish.
The only thing I see as alarming is your continuing reliance of misinformation and an abysmal understanding of data.


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## barney (31 December 2021)

Quick follow up on VAERS,  for reference/comparison only


Inputting data into *VAERS* looks anything but simple and easy. Anyone suggesting so, in an attempt to undermine the reliability of the data, are likely uninformed or misinformed in my humble opinion  

If in doubt about that statement, have a look at the VAERS site and navigate through what most VAERS Reports actually look like and the detail often required to submit.

Doctors say it takes about an average of 30 minutes to fill a report an event to VAERS, and it must be completed in *one sitting*.  If you remain inactive for *20* minutes,* ALL your input data is lost* and you have to start from scratch

So when the anti-vax folk suggest that VAERS is likely under reported due to the time and detail required, I'd submit they are probably correct.  Plus it looks a little imposing for average Joe off the street to be filling out without the assistance of a medical practitioner

This is *ONE* VAERS report of a poor individual who unfortunately died post vaccine, shows the detail


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## barney (31 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Why are you persisting @barney?
> Australian data shows that whatever claims you are making have no reliable basis, and the sites you go to are rubbish.
> The only thing I see as alarming is your continuing reliance of misinformation and an abysmal understanding of data.




Huh?    You are surely not suggesting that VAERS is rubbish misinformation??


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## moXJO (31 December 2021)

Belli said:


> You are going through a pretty torrid time at the moment.  However, overall your posts indicate you are improving but slowly.
> 
> Best wishes to you and hope you get back to good health very soon.  How are your sons going?



Cheers Belli. Probably reads worse than it is
Today I'm up and looking after a few others that have it. I feel ok today despite looking like hammered sht. Don't need panadol slight pain in kidneys.

Can confirm that the voost energy and paracetamol will get you on your feet. Tried it on the ones I'm looking after.
Possibly caffeine and paracetamol will work I'm guessing.
Seems to knock down the first day symptoms of the body aches and ease up the lethargy. I'm not saying it's healthy. It's just going to get you up and about.


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## Belli (31 December 2021)

With respect @barney in regard to VAERS are you aware of the concept of sample size?  There is a formulae for it.


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## Belli (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Cheers Belli. Probably reads worse than it is
> Today I'm up and looking after a few others that have it. I feel ok today despite looking like hammered sht. Don't need panadol slight pain in kidneys.
> 
> Can confirm that the voost energy and paracetamol will get you on your feet. Tried it on the ones I'm looking after.
> ...




Yeah maybe so but when you are in the thick of it, how you feel at the time is the overriding consideration.

Good to know your fighting spirit is returning.


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## rederob (31 December 2021)

barney said:


> Huh?    You are surely not suggesting that VAERS is rubbish misinformation??



The disclaimers on VAERS have been posted many times.
You refuse to accept causation.
And you refuse to rely on Australian data.
But you happily post from antivaxxer sites without understanding why their data is not worth a cracker.
That's poor form.


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## wayneL (31 December 2021)

Notwithstanding that covid is a very unpleasant thing to endure, some context:


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## barney (31 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Why are you persisting @barney?
> Australian data shows that whatever claims you are making have no reliable basis, and the sites you go to are rubbish.
> The only thing I see as alarming is your continuing reliance of misinformation and an abysmal understanding of data.




@rederob     Its a fair question by the way.  "Why am I persisting?"

I assure you Red, I am not some crazy man.   I genuinely believe that the vaccines are not safe (enough), to be pumping into the worlds population at the rates they are, when the initial safety and efficacy data is questionable at best.

The fact that the folk who control all the data we get from the US continue to be evasive about showing said data, just makes me more suspicious and vaccine cautious.

So in essence, if the vaccines do prove to be more harmful that what we are led to believe, and that is what I genuinely feel at present,

It is my duty as a responsible person to tell others why, because it may actually save them some harm (If I happen to be correct).

If it turns out I am incorrect, everyone can rightly say," yep he was a crazy man, we all knew it"  

(Please send me a birthday card to psych ward 11 by the way  )

At the very least and right from the very beginning, my real distress is giving partially tested mRNA vaccines to young people

And now young children.   This is not clever Science.  No one alive can convince me that there is any advantage in jabbing young kids

Especially now that the current "vaccines" are failing with Omicron ... why is anyone injecting their young kids


Now in saying all the above rant ..... I admit the % of vax injuries (if true), are mathematically small-ish compared to the amount of jabs administered, and the fact that my close friends/family seem to have faired ok so far post vax does rattle around in the back of my brain when I throw up info as per previous posts. So I do question myself about both sides.  It is an ongoing dilemma till proven otherwise.


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## wayneL (31 December 2021)

@barney as a personal anecdote, I now know 3 people who have had strokes very soon after the pfizer vaccine.

Yes, as you say it is a fairly small number, compared to the number of people I know who have had the vaccines.

However as myself and many others have stated before we must evaluate these things on a risk reward proposition, and especially considering the age stratificationof the "vaccinated" vs the infected.

There is an age stratum above which the current vaccines do have a positive risk reward ratio... And of course a stratum below, which of course the risk reward ratio is negative.

But, it is not really as simple as that and defining where that level is. There is also the consideration of general health and serious comorbidities.

This is why the vaccine should be completely voluntary and folks should satisfy themselves as to their risk reward ratio.

Omicron is a another spanner in the works as far as calculating the statistics, in that it skews risk and reward in areas which we are only just learning about.

I like this to volatility trading in options and the concept of implied volatility... AKA implied risk.

Given further data we may be able to quantify that more accurately but for the moment it is simply that, implied risk.

Can you imagine wherebuy a government would mandate people with a stock portfolio to buy a certain series of put options?

That is precisely the scenario that we are being sold via this particular series of supposed vaccinations. We have not eliminated any sort of overall risk whatsoever, but we have reshaped the risk curve.

Who says that the shaping of risk is beneficial for any single individual? That is for the individual risk taker to ascertain and the government should well and truly **** right off in that regard.

IMNTBCHO


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## barney (31 December 2021)

Belli said:


> With respect @barney in regard to VAERS are you aware of the concept of sample size?  There is a formulae for it.



I have a broad understanding but don't know how to apply it to VAERS data ..... Will look into it.  Cheers


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## rederob (31 December 2021)

barney said:


> So in essence, if the vaccines do prove to be more harmful that what we are led to believe, and that is what I genuinely feel at present,



At no time have you shown this to be the case!


barney said:


> It is my duty as a responsible person to tell others why, because it may actually save them some harm (If I happen to be correct).



We have millions of data records for Australia that you refuse to rely on.


barney said:


> No one alive can convince me that there is any advantage in jabbing young kids



Looks like nobody can convince you because you won't accept the data on causation.


barney said:


> Especially now that the current "vaccines" are failing with Omicron ... why is anyone injecting their young kids



In fact vaccines are not failing with Omicron, as hospitalisation rates are lower than for Delta, and death rates are a bit early to glean, but the trend was down while hospitalisations had stabilised.  While the risk to reward ratio declines as vaccines are given younger age groups, the fact remains that outcomes for the unvaxxed are consistently proven worse across all ages from 5 years upwards.


barney said:


> It is an ongoing dilemma till proven otherwise.



Billions of vaccinations have taken place and proven your concerns to be unwarranted in the main as severe adverse reactions are *rare*, so the dilemma sits on your unwillingness to accept what is known.


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## wayneL (31 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> @barney as a personal anecdote, I now know 3 people who have had strokes very soon after the pfizer vaccine.
> 
> Yes, as you say it is a fairly small number, compared to the number of people I know who have had the vaccines.
> 
> ...



I would just like to make a further clarification with regards to what I mean by implied volatility vis-a-vis implied risk.

Implied volatility often bears no resemblance to the actual realised volatility  as time goes by. It is the markets best guess. Likewise, and especially given the dodginess of the data we are presented with, we are making no more than best guesses.

Educated guesses, we hope, but guesses nevertheless, until such time the data fulfills itself with the passage of time.

However the data is full of artefact and possibly even completely apocryphal, because of the interference of both politics and mercantile interests.

Good luck with that.


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## Belli (31 December 2021)

barney said:


> I have a broad understanding but don't know how to apply it to VAERS data ..... Will look into it.  Cheers




There is an even easier way to "look into it."

If those researching and assessing Covid-19 issues are not telling you how to your job, how about not trying to tell them how to do theirs? There is "only" about 15,000 of them at the CDC alone.

I'll take notice of an electrician who advises me on how a switchboard is wired but I take zero notice if same said electrician with zero expertise in the health sphere pronounces those heavily involved in the various science disciplians don't know what they are doing.  Straight into the junk opinion bin it goes.


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## barney (31 December 2021)

rederob said:


> The disclaimers on VAERS have been posted many times.
> You refuse to accept causation.
> And you refuse to rely on Australian data.
> But you happily post from antivaxxer sites without understanding why their data is not worth a cracker.
> That's poor form.




Red:  I'm not trying to be a contrary boofhead so this reply is not meant in that way

Firstly, everything in my last couple of posts has been from US official data plus a reference to @Belli article from pro-vax David Gorski 

So no anti-vax site info that I can recall recently.  Plus if I do quote from an A-V site, I generally state so ....... no subterfuge intended

Just on that, would you consider that, over the decades, and now recently with covid, a lot of information that was initially considered misinformation, can often turn out to be truthful/useful/helpful information, once research and time is stirred in?  Budesonide springs to mind as a quick example recently.

My point is obvious of course ...... If  I quote from an anti-vax reference, that does not automatically prove my assertion incorrect. It just means those who disagree with that particular A-V position dismiss it as false.  Proof of anything in the current climate is kind of subjective from what I have read so far.  

That leads me to "Causation"  The wording of causation from an actual case below, kind of indicates to me that it is legal jargon to protect the potentially guilty.  ie. Its a get out of jail card based on unprovable evidence.  If someone appears to have died post vaccine, how in the heck do we test any hypothesis  to prove such?  I mean we can't jump start them back  to life and inject them again so they die twice?







Finally on the Disclaimer re VAERS.  If the disclaimer on whether or not the data represents causation of an event is written by the same people/company/ (CDC), who then decide whether said event had any causation as such ...... ,and if it does, that causation will then cause said Company to be financially impacted ....

That is about as close to a conflict of interest as we will ever get from where I sit. The CDC and every one else in their collective pockets all gain advantage by humming the same tune ...... Not conducive to truthful research I'd submit?

I do however admit that I have not been able to find enough relative Aus data to compare, but at face value I agree with you on that.  That is part of my dilemma, but the Aus data is still a very small subset of the World data of course.

I am definitely not trying to show poor form, to the contrary.  If I reference from an A-V site I will say so. People can make their own decisions on whether anything is worth considering.  Appropriate censorship and freedom of speech should be the same for all sides of the fence.
Cheers.


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## rederob (31 December 2021)

barney said:


> I am definitely not trying to show poor form, to the contrary.



If you are *not *posting to Americans then *use Australian data*.
How hard can it be?
As to "causation," it has been explained in relation to diagnosis leading to an attributed cause if death results.  Where there are doubts about cause of death then cases are referred to the coroner.  You have a singular unwillingness to accept these processes occur and that we derive data based on such events.
Aside from some reasonable comments on precautionary measures I have yet to see you present a shred of meaningful data. 
Baseless opinions are dangerous given we are talking about a disease that has already killed millions, especially seeing that a large share have not been vaccinated.


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## sptrawler (31 December 2021)

I read somewhere this morning that the UK appears to be fairing better than the EU regarding hospitalisations, they are wondering if it is due to the UK using AZ and the EU mainly Pfizer, the outcome will be interesting


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## rederob (31 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I read somewhere this morning that the UK appears to be fairing better than the EU regarding hospitalisations, they are wondering if it is due to the UK using AZ and the EU mainly Pfizer, the outcome will be interesting



UK began offering booster shots after 3 months from 2nd dose, and 90% of those aged 50 and over who are eligible have had it.
Meanwhile our medical experts are fluffing around with 6 months, to five to four... but not 3! 
So it's going to be pretty easy to measure how well the UK has done compared to other countries, and also hopefully put to bed the critics of vaccine efficacy.

[edit: UK boosters seem to be Moderna/Pfizer and not AZ.   A table and link I gave in the *vaccine *thread showed 2 doses of AZ was ineffective for symptomatic Omicron, but that Pfizer was very good by comparison.  The booster shot ramped up efficacy significantly for all vaccine types.  Best result was a vaccine given after unvaccinated infection.]


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## macca (31 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> So far the 5yo have a temperature but are still fine. Possible my 77 yo parents have been exposed. So if there are any out of the ordinary symptoms or severity I'll let the forum know. 5yo are obviously unvaccinated. Both parents double dosed.
> It takes a lot to put my father down so I'll let you know.
> 
> I'll try the Paracetamol and voost energy tab to see if it perks up wife 1.
> ...




UK dentists reckon getting their patient to gargle gives the dentist one hour of better safety









						Mouthwash could help lower COVID-19 transmissions, research suggests – Dentistry Online
					

A new report suggests mouthwash has the potential to fight COVID-19 and reduce transmission, prompting calls for further research.




					dentistry.co.uk
				








__





						Povidone iodine - British Dental Journal
					






					www.nature.com


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## bellenuit (31 December 2021)

moXJO. I've been looking at Voost in Woolworths so that I can have some on hand in case I end up with Omicron. I've noticed several varieties, including a multi-vitamin (orange flavour) and an Immunity booster (blackcurrant). Which one did you find helpful?


----------



## moXJO (31 December 2021)

bellenuit said:


> moXJO. I've been looking at Voost in Woolworths so that I can have some on hand in case I end up with Omicron. I've noticed several varieties, including a multi-vitamin (orange flavour) and an Immunity booster (blackcurrant). Which one did you find helpful?



I used these https://www.woolworths.com.au/shop/productdetails/674967/voost-effervescent-energy-tablets

But any of those "energy" *cough* "caffeine" products will most likely work.

I don't normally recommend supplements but nothing wrong with the rehydrate or multivitamin ones either. I couldn't really eat that much so fluid form would be better.

Take it in the morning with the paracetamol and you can get up and about in about an hour.

The big thing with both the people I'm currently looking after is that they both got up and start doing to much. I tried to force them to eat a bit as you need to conserve as much energy as you can due to lack of nutrition.

Liquid diets going to be easier to hold down.

I'm down 3-4 kg over a 4 day period


----------



## barney (31 December 2021)

Belli said:


> There is an even easier way to "look into it."
> 
> If those researching and assessing Covid-19 issues are not telling you how to your job, how about not trying to tell them how to do theirs? There is "only" about 15,000 of them at the CDC alone.
> 
> I'll take notice of an electrician who advises me on how a switchboard is wired but I take zero notice if same said electrician with zero expertise in the health sphere pronounces those heavily involved in the various science disciplians don't know what they are doing.  Straight into the junk opinion bin it goes.



I'm a muso ...... nice condescending tone in your amplifier 

I have consciously tried to remain "narky-less" during recent posts because I think it is counter productive to any discussion

I take your "tone" on board, remove the mid range a few decibels, and put the guitar away with regard to said recent conversations. There is little point if I am annoying people.  That is the opposite of my intentions, if I actually had any intentions. Similar admission to "Red"


More importantly, Good luck @moXJO with your current situation, and thanks for the continual updates. Yours and others "diary" of getting through the imposition of Covid could help a lot of other people so well done.   I'm sure you will be fine.


----------



## Belli (31 December 2021)

How to occupy one's spare time.  Interesting projections.









						Progression of the COVID outbreak in New South Wales
					

Plot of cases and estimated R_eff for the COVID outbreak in New South Wales



					chrisbillington.net


----------



## rederob (1 January 2022)

*Note all investors: Buy Omicron.
News about it has gone viral and it's chart pattern is spectacular:*




Should double by Wednesday based on trend and hit 10M the week after that.

Back to reality.
More good news news from Pretoria where their death rate is down by 80% compared with Delta and covid cases are dropping markedly. Severe illness nowhere near as prevalent, ICU admissions much lower by comparison and hospital stays have been half the duration.

From the UK, booster shots are offering 88% protection from symptomatic infection, and rates of severe illness continue to trend lower for Omicron than Delta.  However, hospitalisation numbers (below for England only) are of themselves a worry, especially if workers become infectious and cannot maintain staffing levels for patient care:





On the flipside, mechanical ventilation is less frequently needed:


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

World vaccination rates.


----------



## moXJO (1 January 2022)

The only symptoms I have now is a blocked nose. One where blowing does nothing.

Both people I was looking after are fine off the Paracetamol and energy tab. Both up moving around with little disruption.

But I'd probably buy something to unblock the nose as well. Mouth breathing while you sleep is a pain.


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> The only symptoms I have now is a blocked nose. One where blowing does nothing.
> 
> Both people I was looking after are fine off the Paracetamol and energy tab. Both up moving around with little disruption.
> 
> But I'd probably buy something to unblock the nose as well. Mouth breathing while you sleep is a pain.



That's great news moxjo, it looks as though you were right about this variant being allowed to run through and hopefully eradicate the virus, or at least get it under control.








						Welcome to 2022, the year this pandemic ends
					

Australia’s former deputy chief medical officer writes that this is the year the world will overcome COVID-19 as a pandemic and move to living with it as an endemic virus.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
In 2022, the COVID-19 pandemic will end. Driven by the inexorable, inevitable spread of the Omicron variant and the use of vaccines, the global population will generate immunity to this virus.


----------



## moXJO (1 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's great news moxjo, it looks as though you were right about this variant being allowed to run through and hopefully eradicate the virus, or at least get it under control.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was always on the cards imo. From SARS to MERS these viruses always end up endemic. I mentioned this earlier in the whole saga.

And while I got ripped for using the term "goldilocks variant". In my mind omicron was it. 
It spreads too fast to contain. It's a short turnaround to recovery. It doesn't seem to hit the lungs. It's treatable at home.
At this time its a positive to hopefully clear the way to living with this thing.

The politicising of COVID in the social/media (both sides) created such a huge fear factor amongst the public. That I worry more about people recovering from that.


----------



## wayneL (1 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> It was always on the cards imo. From SARS to MERS these viruses always end up endemic. I mentioned this earlier in the whole saga.
> 
> And while I got ripped for using the term "goldilocks variant". In my mind omicron was it.
> It spreads too fast to contain. It's a short turnaround to recovery. It doesn't seem to hit the lungs. It's treatable at home.
> ...



Your last paragraph... Bingo!!!!

As you'd imagine it is the main ttopic of conversation with my clients and also each other's vaccination status.

I have only sacked one client so far for being totally rabid and unreasonable about it. (Nobody has sacked me yet) Most often we discuss our own particular nuanced position on the matter and apart from that one person there has been no problems. But I think that's because of pragmatic nature of the horsosphere.

Occasionally I have arked up a bit at people parroting the fear narrative, but once there is a robust but respectful discussion we are all good.

Outside of that, I see so much division that it is actually really distressing and I can't see much good coming out of it.

I do consider myself fortunate though, that I am not beholden an employer and I can retire and withdraw completely from society, if necessary.... And I'm getting pretty close to actually doing that anyway.


----------



## DB008 (1 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> The politicising of COVID in the social/media (both sides) created such a huge fear factor amongst the public. That I worry more about people recovering from that.





100%

You wonder why people are hesitant to get the jab...? The Dems outdid themselves








Your browser is not able to display this video.






.


----------



## wayneL (1 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> 100%
> 
> You wonder why people are hesitant to get the jab...? The Dems outdid themselves
> 
> ...



12months later it's irhe papiere bittte.


----------



## wayneL (1 January 2022)

WAs top jockey out of today's Perth Cup meeting. Here is his story:


----------



## barney (1 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> 12months later it's irhe papiere bittte.




I don't speak Swahili Wayne, but I was also going to comment that Politicians are very good at doing 180 degree backflips

If it suits their agenda ...................  ...........


----------



## barney (1 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> WAs top jockey out of today's Perth Cup meeting. Here is his story:




Gotta love Pikey!! 

The little horse sniffing the interviewer was determined to get noticed, lol  .......


----------



## moXJO (2 January 2022)

Mother in late 70s now has it. Had paracetamol early and now only light symptoms.
She feels fine.


----------



## moXJO (2 January 2022)

Lots of people getting very light symptoms that I know now


----------



## Knobby22 (2 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Lots of people getting very light symptoms that I know now



Officially animal study test results are showing it is only an upper respitatory track infection similar to a cold. Great news! Delta and previous versions scarred the lungs and did lots of nasty stuff. This one won't do too much damage to most people. I am relaxed now and just want it to spread. (I know someone that is quite damaged by Delta)









						Studies Suggest Why Omicron Is Less Severe: It Spares the Lungs
					

Compared with earlier variants, Omicron may cause less damage to the lungs, new animal research suggests.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Humid (2 January 2022)




----------



## moXJO (2 January 2022)

Ok interesting development.

A family that I know that has it allegedly keeps reinfecting one another. It was one of my concerns which is why I tried to separate everyone.

One member has tested positive for 3 weeks. This maybe why they were going to drop the testing.


----------



## Knobby22 (2 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Ok interesting development.
> 
> A family that I know that has it allegedly keeps reinfecting one another. It was one of my concerns which is why I tried to separate everyone.
> 
> One member has tested positive for 3 weeks. This maybe why they were going to drop the testing.



Maybe just a positive person!


----------



## barney (2 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> A family that I know that has it allegedly keeps reinfecting one another. It was one of my concerns which is why I tried to separate everyone.
> 
> One member has tested positive for 3 weeks. This maybe why they were going to drop the testing.



My Son was told he didnt need to test post Covid for that reason.   If the family are asymptomatic and have finished isolation, they should be right to go.  Apparently up to 3 months it's still possible to register positive.  Maybe they should decrease the cycle threshold on the PCR test to a more practical level for people who are post covid?

Med/Express.com


----------



## moXJO (2 January 2022)

barney said:


> My Son was told he didnt need to test post Covid for that reason.   If the family are asymptomatic and have finished isolation, they should be right to go.  Apparently up to 3 months it's still possible to register positive.  Maybe they should decrease the cycle threshold on the PCR test to a more practical level for people who are post covid?
> 
> Med/Express.com
> View attachment 135098



Thanks for the info. Wasn't aware of it


----------



## IFocus (2 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Thanks for the info. Wasn't aware of it





That was interesting thanks Barney this caught my eye as well

"They also hope to investigate whether these integrated sections of DNA could be partly to blame for some of the long-term autoimmune consequences that some COVID-19 patients experience. "At this point, we can only speculate," says Jaenisch. "But one thing we do think we can explain is why some patients are long-term PCR positive."


----------



## Belli (2 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Officially animal study test results are showing it is only an upper respitatory track infection similar to a cold. Great news! Delta and previous versions scarred the lungs and did lots of nasty stuff. This one won't do too much damage to most people. I am relaxed now and just want it to spread. (I know someone that is quite damaged by Delta)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is good.  Wonder though if teh blighter has mutated if it will again mutate to a nastier form.  Always possible I suppose.


----------



## Knobby22 (2 January 2022)

History rhymes.


----------



## noirua (3 January 2022)

Signs That You May Have Already Had COVID-19
					

Could you have already had COVID-19 and not know it? Learn some signs that might indicate just that.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## noirua (3 January 2022)

How COVID-19 Affects Your Body
					

By now, everyone knows about COVID-19. But do you know how it can affect your body?




					www.webmd.com


----------



## moXJO (3 January 2022)

There was an article today about how the hospital rate is inflated with people that have gone in for other things then tested positive.


----------



## sptrawler (3 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> There was an article today about how the hospital rate is inflated with people that have gone in for other things then tested positive.



The media love to put a dramatic twist on everything, the good thing is, if this peaks very quickly, it will get relegated from the front pages just as quickly.


----------



## Humid (3 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The media love to put a dramatic twist on everything, the good thing is, if this peaks very quickly, it will get relegated from the front pages just as quickly.



Had your 3rd shot yet Homer?


----------



## wayneL (3 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> There was an article today about how the hospital rate is inflated with people that have gone in for other things then tested positive.



interesting that in the past it is the government's role is to keep people calm and reduce panic over any situation including pandemics.

Now it has been to increase fear and panic.

Why?

I think *some of us do know the answer to that.


----------



## sptrawler (3 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Had your 3rd shot yet Homer?



Nope, are they making you guys have one yet? 
I've heard it is essential services first, the MIL in Rockingham wants one, but earliest is late Jan at her doctors.


----------



## Belli (3 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Had your 3rd shot yet Homer?




Tomorrow.

When I saw the NSW cases start to climb in the first couple of weeks last December and then read ATAGI had recommended five months instead of six, I got online and made the appointment. Five months and one day after second dose of AZ.


----------



## barney (3 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> I think *some of us do know the answer to that.




There are certainly some questions I'd like answers to!

I hesitantly regurgitate the Ivermectin debate/misinformation.

I am not in a position to declare definitively that it works, but there are a lot of highly qualified medical people that seem to think it has merit.

The Meta Analysis below is a detailed and well presented study from the American Journal of Therapeutics which shows excellent results


My question is, if this study is even remotely accurate, it indicates we should at least be utilizing Ivermectin as part of an early treatment protocol.  Its extremely safe and appears to cut all case mortality exponentially.

Why then has our TGA basically banned it for treatment of Covid in Australia.  This action forces people who have read research which says it is possibly saving lives, to take additional risks of sourcing it from overseas, and/or use equine versions of the drug.

And there original reason for banning it was: Social media is leading people to use it inappropriately ....doh!  So take away a regulated/controlled prescription availability from between a patient and their Doctor, and force the patient to source it from wherever?! 

Can't quite follow that logic  








Full Meta Analysis Ivermectin

(Small excerpt)


----------



## Belli (3 January 2022)

That's interesting @barney.  Could be some conflict of interest in the meta-study plus there are some doubts about its quality to a degree which casts doubts on its finding.

Study reviewed trials 
The peer-reviewed study in the American Journal of Therapeutics was published June 17 and led by Andrew Bryant, a research associate in gastroenterology at the Population Health Sciences Institute of Newcastle University. 

The researchers said they analyzed results from studies and looked at mortality rates among people who were given ivermectin versus people who weren’t. The researchers concluded:

"Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally."

They added: "Health professionals should strongly consider its use, in both treatment and" prevention.

Study’s underpinnings 

Experts said the trials that *the study relies on are not high quality*.

Dr. Amesh Adalja, a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins University Center for Health Security, said the study is a meta-analysis (an analysis of other analyses) "whose strength is dependent on the underlying studies that comprise it."

"In general, most of the ivermectin studies that purport to show a positive benefit are of low quality and have potential sources of bias," which is why the drug is not recommended by the National Institutes of Health or the Infectious Diseases Society of America, he said. "It is only with rigorously designed randomized control trials that any true benefit can be discovered."

Assuming the meta-analysis is correct, ivermectin "would seem to merit further study," said Stephen Morse, an epidemiology professor at Columbia University Medical Center.

Some drugs initially seem promising, but don’t hold up in more rigorous clinical testing, Morse said. For instance, some insisted that hydroxychloroquine was "a cure," but there hasn’t been strong supporting data for it, he said.

"That can be a real problem, and raise unrealistic expectations for a drug that might be very promising or useful, but not a homerun," Morse said.

Some of the studies analyzed in the ivermectin meta-analysis were not peer reviewed, said Dr. David Gorski, a professor of surgery and oncology at Wayne State University and chief of breast surgery at the Karmanos Cancer Institute, who has criticized the June study.

*"Pooling data from a large number of small, low-quality clinical trials does not magically create one large, high-quality clinical trial,*" wrote Gorski, who is also managing editor of Science-Based Medicine, a website that evaluates medical claims. 

He added: "The few existing higher quality clinical trials testing ivermectin against the disease uniformly have failed to find a positive result. It’s only the smaller, lower-quality trials that have been positive. This is a good indication that the drug probably doesn’t work."

Gorski also pointed out that the researchers, despite claiming to have no conflicts of interest, are affiliated with BIRD (British Ivermectin Recommendation Development) Group.

BIRD describes itself as "campaigning for the safe medicine ivermectin to be approved to prevent and cure COVID-19 around the world." 

Tess Lawrie, who is one of the study’s co-authors and a BIRD leader, told PolitiFact in an email that her study "shows that large reductions in deaths from COVID are probable when ivermectin is used, especially when employed as early treatment."

Another meta-analysis, published June 28, arrived at an opposite conclusion.

That study was led by a University of Connecticut researcher and appeared in the peer-reviewed journal Clinical Infectious Diseases, a publication of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. It found that in comparison to standard of care or placebo, ivermectin "did not reduce all-cause mortality." The study concluded saying that the drug "is not a viable option to treat COVID-19 patients."

BIRD reacted by calling on the journal to take down the meta-analysis or issue a warning about its "incorrect information.""









						PolitiFact - What to know about a pro-ivermectin group’s study touting the drug versus COVID-19
					

Is the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin a "cure" for COVID-19? We’ve rated False claims such as "moun




					www.politifact.com


----------



## Humid (3 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Nope, are they making you guys have one yet?
> I've heard it is essential services first, the MIL in Rockingham wants one, but earliest is late Jan at her doctors.



Dunno I quit early in December but my brother was recently topped up with fizzer after 2 AZ shots.
Parents are booked in this week


----------



## Belli (3 January 2022)

Wow.  Had a look at one of the linked sites.  Doesn't advise who are the owners/authors of the site.  No contact details and only the ability to submit feedback.  A big red flag there.


----------



## rederob (3 January 2022)

barney said:


> There are certainly some questions I'd like answers to!
> 
> I hesitantly regurgitate the Ivermectin debate/misinformation.
> 
> ...



You are still barking at the wrong tree.
If it was so good then dozens of nations would have had RCTs in place to confirm it worked as you say.
Instead we have very flimsy evidence and not many takers to get the kudos for proving your wonder drug worked miracles.
The conspiracy theorists think Ivermectin is not been approved because its plays into the hands of big pharma to get more expensive drugs in place.  You only buy that argument if you think most of the world would pay an arm and a leg to treat covid, rather than pennies, and all this while covid is costing tens of billions in medical care around he world.

Rather than relentless postings here, take your case to medical scientists or ATAGI.  They might carry more weight than anyone posting here.


----------



## barney (3 January 2022)

Thanks @Belli  for taking the time to have a look at the findings.    And the reference to the other "Meta-Analysis"

It's more the fact that the TGA stopped it being used off label which I can't make any sense out of.  (Followed the US lead?)

In essence, it seems they are taking away the possibility of  testing/trialing/helping *any* patients,  when the drug could have been used in a real world situation with almost zero risk.  Potentially a lost opportunity?


@rederob   Why I keep "barking is,

It seems to me that the "vaccines" may well not be the holy grail everybody was hoping for  (Case numbers certainly indicate that)

I suspect alternative treatments/drugs might end up being more important in the long run.  


Lets bypass Ivermectin for the sake of peacefulness  ............. 

What about the* "off label"* use of the anti-depressant FLUVOXAMINE ??   

It seems to be taken a bit more seriously than when first suggested by some crazy Doctors. 🐕‍🦺  (woof  that's meant to be humorous btw)


----------



## macca (3 January 2022)

barney said:


> Thanks @Belli  for taking the time to have a look at the findings.    And the reference to the other "Meta-Analysis"
> 
> It's more the fact that the TGA stopped it being used off label which I can't make any sense out of.  (Followed the US lead?)
> 
> ...




The quickest way to stop the IVM conspiracy theory would be to allow its use on a thousand cases.

Yep, you are positive, if you would like to be in a trial for IVM sign here"

Monitor and publish all results here in OZ, soon see


----------



## rederob (3 January 2022)

barney said:


> It seems to me that the "vaccines" may well not be the holy grail everybody was hoping for  (Case numbers certainly indicate that)



The data is definitive on vaccine benefits.
Case numbers are somewhat incidental as it's about what happens if you get covid.  Unvaccinated your odds of a serious illness are significantly worse than for those vaxxed.  Gambling with your health based on personal preference is not what most people do.


----------



## Belli (3 January 2022)

barney said:


> It's more the fact that the TGA stopped it being used off label which I can't make any sense out of. (Followed the US lead?)




@barney I went to the TGA site in the link



> The TGA has also published new restrictions on prescribing ivermectin for COVID-19. If your doctor writes you a prescription for ivermectin, fill it through a legitimate source, such as a pharmacy, and take it only as prescribed.












						New restrictions on prescribing ivermectin for COVID-19
					

TGA has placed new restrictions on the prescribing of oral ivermectin




					www.tga.gov.au
				






> 10 September 2021
> 
> Today, the TGA, acting on the advice of the *Advisory Committee for Medicines Scheduling*, has placed new restrictions on the prescribing of oral ivermectin. General practitioners are now only able to prescribe ivermectin for TGA-approved conditions (indications) - scabies and certain parasitic infections. Certain specialists including infectious disease physicians, dermatologists, gastroenterologists and hepatologists (liver disease specialists) will be permitted to prescribe ivermectin for other unapproved indications if they believe it is appropriate for a particular patient.




The ACMS link.  I'm not qualified to debate the members of the committee don't know a thing or three about medicines.









						Advisory Committee on Medicines Scheduling (ACMS)
					

The Advisory Committee on Medicines Scheduling advises and makes recommendations regarding how medicines will be made available to the public.




					www.tga.gov.au


----------



## moXJO (3 January 2022)

This is the pack India was using on first sign of symptoms.


I've been following off and on with the ivermectin argument and was interested in how some of the poorer countries fared. Interesting commentary  from a doctor on the ground:



As far as taking that stack.... no thanks.
I heard a lot of side effects and heavy hair loss was one of them.


----------



## moXJO (3 January 2022)

Covid and delta was where the vaccine was of value. Omicron not so much. It did its job imo as there wasn't really a way of knowing how long the stronger strains where sticking around.


----------



## barney (3 January 2022)

Belli said:


> @barney I went to the TGA site in the link




Yeah Cheers.    Appreciate the follow through again.    

I had read the TGA site as well.  * 

Doctors/GP'*s can prescribe it for prescribed conditions but unfortunately not Covid.  

*Specialists* can prescribe it for* "unapproved indications"* if they think it appropriate.  

The process to see a Specialist due to a Covid infection would be difficult unless super crook I assume? 

Then they would have to agree to prescribe it of course  (how likely? No idea)

Probably too late to be particularly effective according to my research.  Assuming the Ivm advocates are correct,

*Ivermectin* is best used as *early* as possible  (in conjunction with Zinc)


----------



## barney (3 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Covid and delta was where the vaccine was of value. Omicron not so much. It did its job imo as there wasn't really a way of knowing how long the stronger strains where sticking around.



My browser (Microsoft Edge) says it has blocked your pages above @moXJO    Anyone know how I fix that?


----------



## moXJO (3 January 2022)

I think that's the video link:



The stack:




__





						Loading...
					





					pbs.twimg.com


----------



## Belli (3 January 2022)

barney said:


> Yeah Cheers.    Appreciate the follow through again.
> 
> I had read the TGA site as well.  *
> 
> ...




More than possible I have previously posted this link but what the heck





__





						Loading...
					





					www.cochranelibrary.com
				




@barney read it if you wish but if you do carefully read the "Discussion" and in particular "Agreements or disagreements with other studies or reviews."

Also note in the link I provided in post #5149 there is this study:



Belli said:


> Another meta-analysis, published June 28, arrived at an opposite conclusion.




So what we have is two independent studies - different researchers by the by - which have both concluded ivermectin as a treatment for Covid is to all intents and purposes BS.  And very strong doubts are expressed on the quality of the information presented by two organisations which, as luck would have it, have some common founders.


----------



## Humid (3 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Covid and delta was where the vaccine was of value. Omicron not so much. It did its job imo as there wasn't really a way of knowing how long the stronger strains where sticking around.



If it was just the hair off your back would that change things?


----------



## Humid (3 January 2022)

Barney is not short for Barnaby is it?


----------



## moXJO (3 January 2022)

Humid said:


> If it was just the hair off your back would that change things?



The "nads special". 
Tough choice


----------



## barney (3 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Barney is not short for Barnaby is it?



He's my Father    lol 

Don't tell Misses Barnaby


----------



## basilio (4 January 2022)

The exponential increase in Omicron cases across Australia is putting enormous pressure on hospital staff. It seems that the hospitalization rate is around .9% rate which of course is low. But when daily *official* case numbers are  doubling every few days and reaching 23k in NSW and 14k  in Victoria the sharp increase in serious cases is squeezing the staff, the resources and of course all other hospital patients.

Last year when everyone and their dog was being tested for COVID the positivity rate was around 1%. Now it is 20-25%. And we know that many thousands of people are not able to be tested and there seems no way of even pretending to know where infectious sites are.

And there are many millions more people open to infection.









						Authorities say 74pc of NSW COVID patients in ICU were infected with Delta variant
					

NSW records a new peak in COVID-19 hospitalisations and daily infections, with 1,344 patients in hospital and 23,131 new cases as health authorities say the majority of people in intensive care have the Delta strain.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						Record-breaking rise in Victorian COVID-19 cases as some testing sites close to process backlog
					

Dozens of COVID testing sites are closing for several days to process a backlog of swabs, as Victoria records more than 14,000 new infections and hospitalisations rise to 516.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (4 January 2022)

The Guardian gives more detailed information on the rapidly escalating impact of Omicron on the hospital systems.
The graphs are pretty impressive..

Covid hospitalisation rates: how is Australia’s health system coping with the spread of Omicron?​We bring together data from across states and territories to track case numbers and how many are ending up in hospital









						Covid hospitalisation rates: how is Australia’s health system coping with the spread of Omicron?
					

We bring together data from across states and territories to track case numbers and how many are ending up in hospital




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## basilio (4 January 2022)

'Out of touch with reality': NSW doctor says hospital staff suffering burnout, as Premier backs system
					

A senior doctor at Sydney hospitals says colleagues have quit and retired due to the pressure of COVID-19 — challenging the Premier to spend a week on the frontline.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## macca (4 January 2022)

as has been posted on ASF, we can safely double the actual number of cases as the 18-30 years olds are ignoring it. 

They only stay home if actually sick, ASAP back into the partying, so in that age group we can triple the numbers of cases reported

Looking at the news, and after the lockdowns it is party time, so I think it highly likely that they will reach 75% infected within a week, maybe two but it is crazy stuff

I feel for the frontline medical staff, I keep thinking that someone in that field might suggest we treat the mild cases at home but nothing yet.

Meanwhile, we are avoiding the party goers, shopping early and hitting the "placebos" as soon as we get home


----------



## Knobby22 (4 January 2022)

Macca,  have seen articles on what to do when you catch it and when you should go to hospital.
Few will go unless they are realy sick. Hospital is awful. I am sure if you are mild you will be sent away.

I am being careful waiting for my booster but I reckon its 50/50 I will catch it before then.


----------



## moXJO (4 January 2022)

5yo and mother in her 70s had little trouble with Omicron. It's a non starter. Symptoms were milder with early paracetamol. 5yo didn't even need that.


----------



## basilio (4 January 2022)

This story is quite significant.  Seems that the large majority of hospital COVID patients have the Delta version.. So Omnicron is producing even smaller severe reactions than expected.

NSW COVID case numbers hit a new high as hospitalisations eclipse last year's peak​
NSW Health has revealed 72 per cent of COVID positive patients admitted to ICU since December 16 were infected with the Delta variant of the virus, not the Omicron strain.

Of those patients, 62 per cent were not vaccinated or had received only one dose of a vaccine.









						Authorities say 74pc of NSW COVID patients in ICU were infected with Delta variant
					

NSW records a new peak in COVID-19 hospitalisations and daily infections, with 1,344 patients in hospital and 23,131 new cases as health authorities say the majority of people in intensive care have the Delta strain.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (4 January 2022)

So what happens if you cop COVID and the Flu at the same time ? We could well be finding out as flu season approaches and our flu immunity has weakened because teh flu has basically been wiped out for 2 years.

But Israel has seen its first cases of Flurona









						What is 'flurona'? Israel has just documented its first known double-whammy infection
					

Israeli health authorities have detected a case of what some are calling "flurona" — a double dose of COVID-19 and the flu. It comes as the country is experiencing a spike in influenza cases in recent weeks, sparking fears of a "twindemic".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (4 January 2022)

I think we can see what is happening with Delta and Omicron at the moment.

When only Delta was circulating we had a far better capacity to effectively test and isolate people who were sick or spreading delta COVID. So there was some form of community protection process.

Omicron has now totally overcome our testing systems. In that context Delta COVID can spread far more easily  because the testing regimes are now practically useless.  So it seems as if the recent uptick in hospitalization is being caused by Delta Covid being masked by Omicron.

The information in post 5173 showed that the unvaxxed or one jabbed patients were most likely to be affected. I think the 5-8% of people who are refusing vaccination are now in serious danger of delta COVID.  I won't be surprised when this analysis is  made publicly clearer as the figures highlight just which strain of  COVID is doing the serious damage.

It will also be interesting to see if catching Omnicron protects people from Delta COVID - or not..


----------



## basilio (4 January 2022)

basilio said:


> It will also be interesting to see if catching Omnicron protects people from Delta COVID - or not..




Appears that Omnicron may well protect people from Delta.








						Omicron may protect against Delta COVID-19 variant, research suggests
					

Since hitting the headlines in November, the Omicron COVID-19 variant has damaged economies, destroyed holidays and blighted the festive season, but scientists say there may be a silver lining to the fast-moving version of the virus.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (4 January 2022)

basilio said:


> Appears that Omnicron may well protect people from Delta.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, so Delta can't compete. Game over,


----------



## sptrawler (4 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes, so Delta can't compete. Game over,



Obviously ghe reason, they are letting it run.


----------



## IFocus (4 January 2022)

Rate has doubled in 7 days wonder how long that can keep going?









						Daily Cases Admitted to Hospital - COVID Live
					

Live tracking of coronavirus cases, active, tests, deaths, ICU, hospitalisations and vaccinations in NSW




					covidlive.com.au


----------



## basilio (4 January 2022)

Norfolk Island  now has COVID.  So far 30 plus cases and exploding. Only 1800 people on the island so that is a high percentage.

90% plus vaxxed but a small core of vehement anti vaxxers. Obviously a very small medical capacity which is struggling to cope with the situation.


----------



## The Triangle (5 January 2022)

Scott Morrison points the finger over Novak Djokovic vaccine exemption
					

Australia has reacted with disgust to news anti-vaxxer Novak Djokovic has been granted an exemption to play in this month’s Australian Open.




					www.news.com.au
				




Memba folks.  The elite always get what they want.   Rules for you and me.  Then another set for celebs businessmen and politicians.


----------



## rederob (5 January 2022)

One of the inevitable consequences of the Omicron variant will be that the concept of *herd immunity becomes just an idea *rather than a real thing.
The reality will be that a highly infectious virus can mutate ahead of any scientific ability to develop an effective vaccine.
Another interesting aspect of what has occurred is that if we can work out what has led to Omicron's infectiousness, we could play with the idea of developing a quasi vaccine being an actual virus of lesser potency than the one causing most harm, and letting it rip ahead of the more harmful virus.  This might sound a bit crazy but Omicron may well be proof of concept. 

Back to data, using the UK experience as a guide to hospitalisations and seriousness, we see this for England's covid cases:





	

		
			
		

		
	
 .

While increased hospitalisations are leading to more deaths, the cause is more related to comorbidities than previously as respiratory deaths are a decreasing proportion.

Given that we know Omicron is going to weigh heavily on hospital workloads, why hasn't the federal government started to build dedicated covid field hospitals to take the pressure off, and only transfer serious cases to State/Private hospital ICU care?  What's about to unfold is as obvious as their failure to work out that covid testing was going to fall into a chasm.  It's s about time they actually responded to covid's likely impacts on services rather than continuing their political grandstanding.


----------



## wayneL (5 January 2022)

@The Triangle If this doesn't wake everyone up that they've been well and truly had, nothing will.

But the Open will come and go, and people will simply go back to enjoying having the boot on their neck.

Viva la greatest psyop ever.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> @The Triangle If this doesn't wake everyone up that they've been well and truly had, nothing will.
> 
> But the Open will come and go, and people will simply go back to enjoying having the boot on their neck.
> 
> Viva la greatest psyop ever.



The actual reason he was blocked doesn't exist anymore due to Omicron. Everyone knows this.

The medical justification (not provided) I expect would be that he has already contracted Covid and so was very low risk.

Sorry, can't get excited, doesn't worry me. I am sure there has been better psyops. Not to say Tennis Australia isn't complicit in working with the pollies to let him in.

In the end, sensible decision using internal diplomacy by the Libs to protect an International Event that would have been used by some parties in the USA to attack Australia and is also being targeted by China. 

This decision was flagged. No pollies wanted to  be seen back flipping. Watch how quiet Vic Labor will be on this.


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> The actual reason he was blocked doesn't exist anymore due to Omicron. Everyone knows this.
> 
> The medical justification (not provided) I expect would be that he has already contracted Covid and so was very low risk.
> 
> ...



At least Margaret Court wont be the most hated person there this year


----------



## barney (5 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> The medical justification (not provided) I expect would be that he has already contracted Covid and so was very low risk.




Novak apparently had Covid back in June 2020 so I assume would be submitting natural immunity as a valid argument against requiring "vaccination"

I have no problem with him being given an exemption as long as every other person who has had covid is shown the same courtesy

Pretty much accepted now that natural immunity is way more effective than "vaccine immunity" 

Why do the media spin the "hate/division" aspect of the story against Novak when they could be promoting positivity (Rhetorical)

The initial media hype, "we are all in this together" was turned into "our side vs your side" at every opportunity.  

Many people I talk to (vaccinated or not) are over it (the rubbish media reporting).  If they would just present the known facts, and if the fact change (as they do/will) .... re-present.  Honesty and transparency would be a welcome change


----------



## basilio (5 January 2022)

Love it..

*    Powerball jackpots to 4-pack of RATs  * 







One lucky Australian could walk away with enough rapid antigen tests for a family of four, after Powerball jackpotted to two double packs of RightSign self-administered rapid nasal tests. It is the most sought after prize in the history of Powerball.

Powerball spokesperson Henrietta White said there had been a huge surge in interest in tonight’s draw, with thousands of Australians rushing to buy last-minute tickets. “I haven’t seen anything like it. Last year’s $107 million jackpot was pretty huge, but this is definitely bigger. It’s a money-can’t buy prize for sure,” she said.                                                                                                           

White said one of the best parts of her job was calling people to tell them they’d won. “I can’t wait to pick up the phone and say, ‘You’ll never have to visit 50 different Chemist Warehouses in the one day asking if they’ve got any RATs left. At least not for the next day or so’. It’s going to be pretty emotional, that’s for sure”.

Regular Powerball player Beth Winter says she couldn’t even imagine what it would be like to win the RATs. “The idea of not having to wait in a queue for six hours is hard to fathom,” she said. Winter says if she wins she might have one for herself and keep the other three to pass on to her grandchildren.









						Powerball jackpots to 4-pack of RATs
					

"It is the most sought after prize in the history of Powerball"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## basilio (5 January 2022)

On the other hand consider current Government policy settings...

* Greg Hunt: “If RATs were free, there would be nothing stopping people just going and looking after their health”                *







Outgoing Health Minister Greg Hunt says it would be unwise for the Government to provide free rapid antigen tests, warning of a free-for-all scenario whereby Australians would go to pharmacies, grab test and check to see if they are at risk of passing on an infectious virus.

In a television interview this morning, Mr Hunt said the move to limit supplies was common sense. “If there were no constraints, if they were handed out free, then what we’d see is hordes of people using the rapid tests to see if they are positive for a highly-infectious disease. From there – if they test positive – it would obviously then lead to them isolating in an attempt to reduce the spread of the virus to vulnerable people. We simply can’t have that”.                                                                                

Mr Hunt said the government’s plan of making tests unaffordable and unavailable made more sense. “Under the more measured approach which we’re recommending, people will be unable to get tested and we’ll have no xucking idea what’s going on, which is much more in keeping with the modus operandi of this government”.

Mr Hunt is retiring at the upcoming election to spend more time doing absolutely nothing.









						Greg Hunt: “If RATs were free, there would be nothing stopping people just going and looking after their health”
					

"It would be a free-for-all"




					www.theshovel.com.au


----------



## macca (5 January 2022)

basilio said:


> Norfolk Island  now has COVID.  So far 30 plus cases and exploding. Only 1800 people on the island so that is a high percentage.
> 
> 90% plus vaxxed but a small core of vehement anti vaxxers. Obviously a very small medical capacity which is struggling to cope with the situation.




I would assume they had some sort of restrictions on who could visit the island.

Identifying the source and then following the course of the infection would be good research in such an isolated location.

Hopefully one of our medical researchers might be encouraged by the "Health Officers" to take an interest


----------



## basilio (5 January 2022)

macca said:


> I would assume they had some sort of restrictions on who could visit the island.
> 
> Identifying the source and then following the course of the infection would be good research in such an isolated location.
> 
> Hopefully one of our medical researchers might be encouraged by the "Health Officers" to take an interest




Norfolk Island was open to tourists until Christmas.  It seems almost certain that one of the tourists brought the virus. He was tested positive later on, after his return.

The virus has spread quick through one of the 9 major families on the island that  are descendents from the Mutiny on the Bounty. They had big Christmas celebrations and that was that.  I understand most of the extended family are infected.  How far it goes is anybodies guess.





__





						Norfolk Islanders - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## sptrawler (5 January 2022)

I see that the authorities are pleading with people to only ring 000 for emergencies, as they are bogging the system down.
Its amazing how people can be so brainwashed, the media must be impressed.


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I see that the authorities are pleading with people to only ring 000 for emergencies, as they are bogging the system down.
> Its amazing how people can be so brainwashed, the media must be impressed.



Im shocked they're not ringing 911


----------



## wayneL (5 January 2022)

Any light bulbs turning on, Komrades?


----------



## wayneL (5 January 2022)

Truth bombs that I doubt any of our resident luvvies will have the balls to watch.


----------



## barney (5 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Any light bulbs turning on, Komrades?




Pretty sad statement from a President  

Given the extensive waning of doses 1 and 2 Worldwide to this point

And the apparent failure of "boosters" (Israel particularly + pretty much everywhere they have been promoted)  

President Mac might end up getting offside with a lot more French folk than he is bargaining for, not too far down the track.   


If the world keeps dosing and it continues to not work very effectively .... what was the definition of insanity again

All this while we have many Doctors worldwide using successful early treatment protocols.  I remain bewildered


ps Link to your above vid please @wayneL    (My microsoft blocks the page ...thanks)


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

I get the feeling theres punters here that think the whole saga would be better if there was no vaccines at all to deal with covid,including the ones who have decided its not for them.
Are you riding on the coat tails of the vaccinated or survival of the fittest or what?
WHATS your position


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

Barney wayneL cant answer hes busy


----------



## wayneL (5 January 2022)

Iris...  errrr, Victorian logic:


----------



## wayneL (5 January 2022)

@barney 









						Macron declares his Covid strategy is to ‘piss off’ the unvaccinated
					

French president stokes divisions as parliament debates tighter requirements for mandatory health pass




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## DB008 (6 January 2022)

The media should really be held accountable, especially in the USA.






.​


----------



## DB008 (6 January 2022)

QLD Logic

Idiots
​*Fast-changing isolation rules leave international travellers baffled as COVID-19 spreads*​
Despite having had three Pfizer vaccines and returning negative PCR tests — before her flight from Israel and again in Australia on December 29 — she and her family must isolate for 14 days.​​However, in a public health order from January 3, locals who have tested positive for COVID-19 must only isolate for seven days, provided they no longer have symptoms.​

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01...rule-quarantine-confusion-covid-qld/100740124​

.


----------



## rederob (6 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> QLD Logic
> 
> Idiots
> ​*Fast-changing isolation rules leave international travellers baffled as COVID-19 spreads*​
> ...



Yes it's a joke.
Here we are almost 2 years on and the biggest Joker of them all is supposed to be sent home:






Novaxx Joker hit.


----------



## The Triangle (6 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Yes it's a joke.
> Here we are almost 2 years on and the biggest Joker of them all is supposed to be sent home:
> View attachment 135296
> 
> ...



....Now it can be revealed that his likely reason for requesting an exemption was having contracted Covid-19 twice within the past six months.

His excuse for not getting vaccinated is that he keeps catching covid....?

Need some facts on this case.  These two medical bodies who granted the exemption should explain themselves.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (6 January 2022)

> _Expert, texpert choking smokers
> Don't you think the joker laughs at you (ho ho ho, hee hee hee, hah hah hah)
> See how they smile like pigs in a sty, see how they snide
> I'm crying_


----------



## moXJO (6 January 2022)

What's the reason for cancelling his visa?

Because he doesn't have a vaccination?

People with vaccinations have so far:

Brought it to Australia.
Infected other people.
Died despite being vaccinated.
I mean is he somehow going to make omicron more contagious.

People have lost the plot.


----------



## Tisme (6 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> ....Now it can be revealed that his likely reason for requesting an exemption was having contracted Covid-19 twice within the past six months.
> 
> His excuse for not getting vaccinated is that he keeps catching covid....?
> 
> Need some facts on this case.  These two medical bodies who granted the exemption should explain themselves.



I hope he features on a future "Border Force" episode


----------



## sptrawler (6 January 2022)

Good quote @Dona Ferentes


----------



## wayneL (6 January 2022)

It's all theatrics s and damage control now, because the proles got mad and started to wake up a bit.

Novak has done nothing wrong, but you get egregious retards like Lisa Wilkinson stirring up the non-thinking bedwetters and trying to make it all Novak's fault.

I'm seriously disappointed with this country right now.

P.s. there are no words to describe how much I hate autocorrect


----------



## moXJO (6 January 2022)

Tisme said:


> I hope he features on a future "Border Force" episode



Well it's about time you showed up.


----------



## Tisme (6 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Well it's about time you showed up.



You guys expelled me with a secret squirrel vote to save the forum from imminent devastation at my hand ....don't you recall?


----------



## barney (6 January 2022)

This news came out a couple of days ago.

I would speculate .......... Lockdowns? Mandates? Job losses? Anxiety? Depression? Suicides? Vaccines?  

40% rise in the recent death rate in Indiana is not normal.   Others can make their own assumptions, but the Insurance boss says

The excess deaths are not particularly aligned with "Covid" deaths which predominantly happen in the over 70's


----------



## The Triangle (6 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's all theatrics s and damage control now, because the proles got mad and started to wake up a bit.
> 
> Novak has done nothing wrong, but you get egregious retards like Lisa Wilkinson stirring up the non-thinking bedwetters and trying to make it all Novak's fault.
> 
> ...



He obviously has done something wrong or the border gestapo would have let him in the country.   I don't like all these rules, but the are here, and should apply equally to everyone all the time.   Unless you have aids or some STD and you don't want the public to know because of the stigma - why not just disclose the reason for the exemption?

But no matter what - The guy is a grub and always will be a grub.  He's not on the same planet as Federer or Nadal.


----------



## DB008 (6 January 2022)

Time to let it rip


​


.


----------



## Belli (6 January 2022)

Yeah, well, great for some.  Due to a number of circumstances, letting it rip has delayed the cancer treatment I'm receiving or rather was to receive.


----------



## basilio (6 January 2022)

The impact of Omicron/Covid on the hospitality industry seems traumatic. This is  a very detailed story across many hotels and entertainment venues. Particularly concerning to see that people were not only infected by xloody sick for an extended period.

I can appreciate that a number of the Omicron experiences reported on ASF appear benign.  But in the bigger picture it looks like it still paks a wallop.

I wonder at what stage the government reverts to business and individual support again ? Or just lets it rip.









						Cafes, restaurants, tourism businesses make 'painful' decision to close as Omicron soars and testing is unavailable
					

It was meant to be the summer where pubs, restaurants, resorts and shops could finally get back to business. Instead, many are now facing more chaos and closures because of crippling staff shortages caused by soaring COVID-19 infections.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## IFocus (6 January 2022)

Best comment I have seen re the Joker is, "he should have ticked the au pair box"


----------



## sptrawler (6 January 2022)

Interesting that while watching the Sydney test, they did a live cross to Glen McGrath who couldnt attend due to a positive covid test on Sunday, he looked and sounded fine not a hint of flu like symptoms.


----------



## basilio (6 January 2022)

Covid impact on the economy is spreading.  Worth realising we are still in the Christmas/New Year holiday period.  Large number of businesses on holidays until 3rd /4th week of January









						Supermarkets short of supply as up to half of truck drivers absent due to COVID
					

Supermarket shelves are empty once again, but retailers say a COVID-induced supply chain crunch is to blame, not panic buying.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (6 January 2022)

Rafael Nadal was struck down by covid two weeks ago, after the Abu Dhabi tournament, he is playing at the moment in the Melbourne APT tournament, 1 set up and leading by a break in the second set.
Obviously no lingering effects from covid.
Just won, straight sets.


----------



## DB008 (6 January 2022)

Belli said:


> letting it rip has delayed the cancer treatment I'm receiving or rather was to receive.




How so? We haven't let it rip yet...


----------



## Belli (6 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> How so? We haven't let it rip yet...




Really?  What interesting views you hold.  So in your opinion it doesn't matter a Covid positive patient attended the consultation rooms of the specialist causing them to isolate until after testing results are received (currently delayed due to the volume to be processed) thereby resulting in his surgery sessions needing to be cancelled?

Personally I'm not worried for myself as I don't consider the delay will make a great deal of difference given it's very early stage but for other patients that may not be the case.


----------



## wayneL (6 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> How so? We haven't let it rip yet...




I think the evidence shows that it is the lockdowns, rather than letting it rip which has stopped many cancer treatments and diagnoses. There is an estimated 750000 undiagnosed cases in the UK as a result of the covid measures/lockdowns.

Time will show that ultimately there will be far more deaths from the lockdowns, than from covid itself.

@Belli whatever the reason for all this, I hope you get the treatment you need, man.


----------



## DB008 (6 January 2022)

Belli said:


> Really? What interesting views you hold.




Letting it rip, is just that :
No more QR Code check ins (which don't work anyway)
Masks optional
Quarantine gone
Boosters optional
If you have had Covid-19, that should be considered vaxed/double vaxed/boosted

So no, we haven't let it rip yet

I hope you get the treatment you are waiting on.


----------



## Belli (6 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> @Belli whatever the reason for all this, I hope you get the treatment you need, man.




It'll be resolved one way or the other.  I assumed something like this could occur or treatment may not be successful so have already sorted out my personal affairs including the possibility of winding up the SMSF before my early demise.


----------



## IFocus (6 January 2022)

Belli said:


> Yeah, well, great for some.  Due to a number of circumstances, letting it rip has delayed the cancer treatment I'm receiving or rather was to receive.





Sorry to hear hope things get back on tract


----------



## moXJO (6 January 2022)

Belli said:


> It'll be resolved one way or the other.  I assumed something like this could occur or treatment may not be successful so have already sorted out my personal affairs including the possibility of winding up the SMSF before my early demise.



Hope it sorts out (in a good way) for you.  Not something you want going on when you are sick.


----------



## Belli (6 January 2022)

Thank you for the thoughts people.  Appreciated.

In all likelihood it will mean things will be delayed for about a month or possibly less as the specialist - assuming the all clear - will triage patients.

Nothing I can do about it so no point in me getting too stressed over it.


----------



## wayneL (6 January 2022)

To get back to the point:


----------



## wayneL (6 January 2022)

'Straya

But not the one I used to know.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> I think the evidence shows that it is the lockdowns, rather than letting it rip which has stopped many cancer treatments and diagnoses. There is an estimated 750000 undiagnosed cases in the UK as a result of the covid measures/lockdowns.




It should be pretty obvious by now that all the people isolating because they have contracted covid is causing more problems than lockdowns.

Hospitals can't get staff and are being swamped, same with emergency services and shortage of supply line workers is resulting in bare supermarket shelves.

I agree we have to get back to normal sometime, but restriction reductions were rushed without sufficient testing as to their effects.


----------



## DB008 (6 January 2022)

A guy l work, his daughter got Covid-19 last week. He went for a test on Monday. Still hasn't got the results. This is in Brisbane. His family took the precaution of isolating all week. He said his body was sore for 2 days, and that's it. Double vaxed.


----------



## macca (6 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> 'Straya
> 
> But not the one I used to know.




NT used to be the home of the independent oddballs, I used to love the place, now they have a power crazy nutter running the place.

I guess I never see Darwin again


----------



## Tisme (7 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It should be pretty obvious by now that all the people isolating because they have contracted covid is causing more problems than lockdowns.
> 
> Hospitals can't get staff and are being swamped, same with emergency services and shortage of supply line workers is resulting in bare supermarket shelves.
> 
> I agree we have to get back to normal sometime, but restriction reductions were rushed without sufficient testing as to their effects.



Election cycle imperatives. Covid caution is conflicting with the good news about our economic strength that only cost us a trillion bucks of debt to achieve.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 January 2022)

Tisme said:


> Election cycle imperatives. Covid caution is conflicting with the good news about our economic strength that only cost us a trillion bucks of debt to achieve.
> View attachment 135344




Yep you can't have the plebs locked down and unhappy in an election campaign.

Better to have them crook but free.


----------



## IFocus (7 January 2022)

Belli said:


> Thank you for the thoughts people.  Appreciated.
> 
> In all likelihood it will mean things will be delayed for about a month or possibly less as the specialist - assuming the all clear - will triage patients.
> 
> Nothing I can do about it so no point in me getting too stressed over it.





Your story I have been hearing a fair bit also COVID has also been responsible for ending a lot of drug trials even here in WA mate was on a life saving one which got cancelled due to COVID (don't know the specific reasons).

Hope it all goes well.


----------



## wayneL (7 January 2022)

Nail.
Head.
Hit.

(Language warning)

Literally Every Aspect of the COVID Response Was Wrong


----------



## barney (7 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Literally Every Aspect of the COVID Response Was Wrong




Lol .... Spoken extemporaneously ...  That deserves a big like


----------



## barney (8 January 2022)

This is an older video from Dr. David Martin but his message remains the same. 

Pretty hard to discount his "proof by patents" documentation when it is all listed in Government documents.

Hopefully one day, all the perpetrators who have damaged so many lives will be forced to face the music.

Full Video is a must watch for anyone who has not seen any of his info:

David Martin Mid year 2021

Tiny excerpt from the end of the video below.





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## DB008 (8 January 2022)

My local Coles and Woolies in Brisbane.

Been like this for a about a week now, slowly getting worse. Less stock.















































If it keeps going this way, panic buying will set in again

I purchased some toilet paper today, just in case the toilet paper wars start up again...



.


----------



## The Triangle (8 January 2022)

.


DB008 said:


> My local Coles and Woolies in Brisbane.
> 
> Been like this for a about a week now, slowly getting worse. Less stock.
> 
> ...



Isn't that evidence of panic buying already?

Wonder if McGowan is looking at these pictures...Perth being literally the most isolated city in the world will look very interesting when he opens up next month.


----------



## moXJO (8 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> My local Coles and Woolies in Brisbane.
> 
> Been like this for a about a week now, slowly getting worse. Less stock.
> 
> ...



It happened in nsw for about a week then was fine again. I've heard businesses doing it on purpose to create panic buying.


----------



## moXJO (8 January 2022)

Australia- you are officially world's dumbest shts


----------



## rederob (8 January 2022)

barney said:


> This is an older video from Dr. David Martin but his message remains the same.
> 
> Pretty hard to discount his "proof by patents" documentation when it is all listed in Government documents.
> 
> ...



OMG, what unadulterated crap!
This guy peddles nonsense that so many fall for and has had his claims continuously debunked.


----------



## barney (8 January 2022)

rederob said:


> OMG, what unadulterated crap!
> This guy peddles nonsense that so many fall for and has had his claims continuously debunked.



Debunked!  Lol.   "Fact-checkers" You actually listen to fact checkers?  

There's not a debunker alive that would last 5 minutes in a court of law against Martin.


----------



## barney (8 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> .Isn't that evidence of panic buying already?




Lack of truckies apparently.  Plenty of stock but only half the man power to deliver it.

Truckies


----------



## wayneL (8 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Australia- you are officially world's dumbest shts




Congratulations PM, Premiers and CHOs, look what you've done.


----------



## The Triangle (8 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Congratulations PM, Premiers and CHOs, look what you've done.



The guy probably hit him because of the way he looked and spoke.


----------



## sptrawler (8 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> .
> 
> Isn't that evidence of panic buying already?
> 
> Wonder if McGowan is looking at these pictures...Perth being literally the most isolated city in the world will look very interesting when he opens up next month.



You mean IF he opens the borders next month.
I  certainly wouldnt be putting money on it, unless the numbers over East peak and start rapidly dropping.


----------



## moXJO (8 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> You mean IF he opens the borders next month.
> I  certainly wouldnt be putting money on it, unless the numbers over East peak and start rapidly dropping.



Is WA borders still shut?

God, I didn't even notice.


----------



## Knobby22 (8 January 2022)

barney said:


> Lack of truckies apparently.  Plenty of stock but only half the man power to deliver it.
> 
> Truckies
> 
> View attachment 135469



At Footscray market today. No sign of food shortages. Also local strip has plenty of meat and veg. It seems all the dumb cnuts only shop at Supermarkets.


----------



## moXJO (8 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> At Footscray market today. No sign of food shortages. Also local strip has plenty of meat and veg. It seems all the dumb cnuts only shop at Supermarkets.



Yeah this is where it looks suss. Local fruit and veg markets are all fine. Woolies stripped bare.


----------



## DB008 (8 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> It seems all the dumb cnuts only shop at Supermarkets.




I must be a cnut for not going to my local markets, even though l just moved house and don't even know if there is a local market.

Anyways, everyone is getting Covid-19 one way or another and with Omicron spreading so fast, whats the difference if you catch from a vaccinated person or an unvaccinated person? Your still going to catch it. 

I'm now fully in the 'let it 100% rip brigade'. Better off getting this over and done with in the next few weeks, than doing it slowly and people missing out on medical appointments which might be a bigger issues (see poster Belli as an example).

And 100% let it rip means, let it rip.


----------



## DB008 (8 January 2022)

Common sense starting to creep in?


Unvaccinated doctor challenges UK Health Secretary Sajid Javid over compulsory jabs for NHS staff and tells him he doesn't want a vaccine because he "has had COVID, and feels protected by antibodies" after working in ICU for years.






Your browser is not able to display this video.







.​


----------



## Humid (9 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> I must be a cnut for not going to my local markets, even though l just moved house and don't even know if there is a local market.
> 
> Anyways, everyone is getting Covid-19 one way or another and with Omicron spreading so fast, whats the difference if you catch from a vaccinated person or an unvaccinated person? Your still going to catch it.
> 
> ...



Might be a bit late for choosing....


----------



## IFocus (9 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> I must be a cnut for not going to my local markets, even though l just moved house and don't even know if there is a local market.
> 
> Anyways, everyone is getting Covid-19 one way or another and with Omicron spreading so fast, whats the difference if you catch from a vaccinated person or an unvaccinated person? Your still going to catch it.
> 
> ...





I wonder what happens next another variant turns up then push replay?

Hope everyone stays well what ever happens


----------



## Knobby22 (9 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> I must be a cnut for not going to my local markets, even though l just moved house and don't even know if there is a local market.
> 
> Anyways, everyone is getting Covid-19 one way or another and with Omicron spreading so fast, whats the difference if you catch from a vaccinated person or an unvaccinated person? Your still going to catch it.
> 
> ...



The AMA say that is what is happening and aren't to happy about it.

Australian Medical Association president Omar Khorshid said Australians were paying for state and federal governments’ decisions not to heed warnings from doctors and public health experts before Christmas that even if Omicron proved to be mild, the sheer number of cases could overwhelm hospitals.
“The strategy has been to let it rip. That’s very clear,” he said.

Dr Khorshid said governments “led by NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet but cheered on by the Prime Minister” had decided not to listen to the health advice that had held Australia in such good stead through the pandemic, by pushing ahead with opening up plans on the basis Omicron was mild.









						Surf lifesavers and students fill paramedic shifts, as Omicron spreads
					

Frustrated medical leaders say Australia’s politicians have turned their back on sound public health advice and “let it rip”.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## wayneL (9 January 2022)

Stuff you won't see on the news


----------



## DB008 (9 January 2022)

Better get natural immunity from Omicron before Deltacron heads over here...



Cyprus reportedly discovers a Covid variant that combines omicron and delta​

A researcher in Cyprus has discovered a strain of the coronavirus that combines the delta and omicron variant, Bloomberg News reported Saturday.
Leondios Kostrikis, professor of biological sciences at the University of Cyprus, called the strain “deltacron.”
It’s still too early to tell whether there are more cases of the strain or what impacts it could have.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/08/cyp...-variant-that-combines-omicron-and-delta.html​
.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 January 2022)

I know there are some people on here who will immediately cry  BS if anything from the evil Murdoch empire is quoted, but an interesting article from The Australian


> IT was the very start of the pandemic and Mayana Zatz’s neighbour was sick. He was in his 60s and he had a high fever – but he was not the sole concern. He lived with his wife.
> Zatz thought that inevitably she too would be infected. Days passed, then a fortnight. The husband got better, his wife seemed fine. Was she asymptomatic? Zatz, a geneticist at Sao Paulo University, looked at her blood. There were no antibodies. The pair had lived together. He had been infected. Yet she had not got it.
> This gave Zatz an idea: were there other “discordant couples"? Could they tell us something? Could they even help us to defeat this disease?
> She put out a call and more than 2,000 responded. Of the 100 they chose, in which one partner had been infected and the other had not, the same is largely still true.
> ...



As is so often the case, the article highlights that we really don't know much.
People talk about "the science", or "the Data",  and prtetend that heir conclusions are absolute.
The reality is , that  very few things in this world are absolute.
Despite the huge amount of data and research on COVID,  we are little closer to understanding why not everyone gets COVID, or more precisely, why not everyone  who may or may not have or have had COVID, responds to tests for the disease.
Mick


----------



## Humid (9 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Yeah this is where it looks suss. Local fruit and veg markets are all fine. Woolies stripped bare.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 January 2022)

I agree. As an engineer I can tell you in real life nothing is absolute. 
 I read something very similar to this article in New Scientist about 4 months ago. It may be the future one day.


----------



## wayneL (9 January 2022)

Twitter, channeling Comical Ali


----------



## sptrawler (10 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> I wonder what happens next another variant turns up then push replay?



I suppose that is the real issue, Moderna says they will have a vaccine for omicron by the middle of the year, so we have lockdowns and wait.
Then by the time 90% are vaccinated another variant arrives, so we have lockdowns for another year and so it goes on until the economy collapses, then we let it rip even if it is the worst variant because we will have run out of options.
Interesting times.


----------



## Knobby22 (10 January 2022)

a







sptrawler said:


> I suppose that is the real issue, Moderna says they will have a vaccine for omicron by the middle of the year, so we have lockdowns and wait.
> Then by the time 90% are vaccinated another variant arrives, so we have lockdowns for another year and so it goes on until the economy collapses, then we let it rip even if it is the worst variant because we will have run out of options.
> Interesting times.



Watching Stan's 'Station 11' with my son and the virus kills everyone first day. Great show, highly recommend. (Was written before the pandemic and he had to study it for English final year).

The vaccine still works just not as effective and a booster is worth having.
SA figures show that 80% in hospital are unvaccinated from a 90% vaccinated population so the maths is pretty simple.

Even previously catching the virus doesn't stop you catching Omicron (though you will be in effect vaccinated).


----------



## sptrawler (10 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> The vaccine still works just not as effective and a booster is worth having.
> SA figures show that 80% in hospital are unvaccinated from a 90% vaccinated population so the maths is pretty simple.
> 
> Even previously catching the virus doesn't stop you catching Omicron (though you will be in effect vaccinated).



Which really highlights sooner or later the let it rip option has to be adopted.
Waiting for the next strain and the next vaccine, is just delaying the inevitable.
IMO it is better to let a mild strain go through quickly and develop some herd immunity, than to allow it to fester and mutate into something really sinister which will happen eventually.


----------



## basilio (10 January 2022)

Current impact of Covid on health systems.

                           07:53                       

Peter Hannam

In many parts of the country hospitals are under stress, as more patients turn up for treatment and many staff are required to be absent because of Covid.

As we reported, these hospitals range from the very large – such as Melbourne’s Alfred hospital or the much smaller, including Byron Central hospital in northern NSW.

The rise in cases means hospitals are nearing capacity. One concern worrying health officials is there will be an unexpected event, such as a train or bus crash, that will suddenly present a lot of people needing urgent care but with no beds spare.

Another issue looming in the near future is the resignation of exhausted medical or other staff, tired of the demand for long overtime or even bullying or abuse from patients unhappy at the attention they are receiving.
* 
At Byron, which is without its two top executives because of resignations, three more senior emergency department staff have quit, according to a nurse from the Nurses and Midwives Association. The trio includes the ED’s nursing unit manager.*

According to one Facebook post from the region, “currently four doctors and eight nurses who work in Byron hospital are off sick with Covid. My friend says that none of this is due to poor practices, they are just being swamped with cases. Instead of being offered sick pay or worker’s compensation, they have been told to use their leave entitlements/holidays.”









						Children’s vaccination program starts – as it happened
					

This blog is now closed




					www.theguardian.com
				




Similar issues are popping up across the country.


----------



## sptrawler (10 January 2022)

@basilio it is an awfull situation, last year my daughter who works in a library and has two young children, had to take all here annual leave and all her long service leave at half pay to look after the kids during lockdowns.


----------



## The Triangle (10 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> a
> Watching Stan's 'Station 11' with my son and the virus kills everyone first day. Great show, highly recommend. (Was written before the pandemic and he had to study it for English final year).
> 
> The vaccine still works just not as effective and a booster is worth having.
> ...







__





						COVID-19 update 31 December 2021 | SA Health
					

There have been 2,093 new cases of COVID-19 reported today. There have been 11,078 cases reported in South Australia to date.




					www.sahealth.sa.gov.au
				








__





						COVID-19 dashboard | SA Health
					

Statistical information and maps about the occurrence of cases of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in South Australia




					www.sahealth.sa.gov.au
				




As of the 31st the numbers in hospital are:  65% vaccinated, 35% unvaccinated.   I can't find a recent official update published by the government.  The dashboard which is updated does not show vaccination status.

There is something strange with the reporting.    Last Wednesday the SA premier said there were 12 cases in ICU - 50/50 split.  On Saturday there were 16 cases in ICU according to media.  Assuming no one left ICU within 3 days and all new cases were unvaccinated that still gives me 6 vaccinated 10 unvaccinated.  Which is 62% unvaccinated in ICU vs 38% vaccinated - But the media is saying its 80% unvaccinated.  It's possible that within 3 days 3 cases came out of ICU and all new cases were unvaccinated but I'm not sure I believe that.  

_Mr Marshall said 80 per cent of patients in ICU were not vaccinated._

"My strong message again to South Australians is we've got to get ourselves vaccinated," he said.


----------



## Tisme (10 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I agree. As an engineer I can tell you in real life nothing is absolute.
> I read something very similar to this article in New Scientist about 4 months ago. It may be the future one day.



But there's heaps of constants.


----------



## sptrawler (10 January 2022)

Apparently NSW to peak mid January.









						NSW Health modelling shows state will be 'well past' COVID outbreak peak by middle of February
					

COVID-19 cases are expected to peak in NSW in mid-January and subside by the middle of February, modelling by NSW Health shows.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (10 January 2022)

On the weekend I travelled down to deadly Melbourne and helped my daughter shift house (again!!).
She works at the Alfred in allied health,  and has had more COVID tests than I have hairs on my head.
This morning she phoned to say that on Friday night, she had dinner with three other girls, who worked in the hospital., one of whom has tested positive for the Rona.
This girl got her positive PCR test results last night a week after she had her routine test.
She immediately did a RAT test which was negative, as did my daughter.
Both my wife and I did RAT tests and had negative results.
If it takes a week to get a test result, it rather defeats the purpose of the testing .
The positive testing girl had zero symptoms  has no idea how long she was infectious, and was very surprised at the positive result.
The question is, was her positive result  a false positive, a case of mixed up identity, are there now  citizens walking around with natural immunity,  or is there some other explanation?
I guess its one of Rusfelds known unknowns.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (10 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The positive testing girl had zero symptoms  has no idea how long she was infectious, and was very surprised at the positive result.
> The question is, was her positive result  a false positive, a case of mixed up identity, are there now  citizens walking around with natural immunity,  or is there some other explanation?
> 
> Mick



Or is it a case of her symptoms are so mild, as to not be noticed?
Like I said a couple of days ago Rafa had full blown covid a couple of weeks ago, yesterday he won the Adelaide tennis tournament, even the more serious earlier strains of covid only had a mortality rate a a few percent and they were mainly old or had some underlying health issue.
The problem now IMO, the general public is so freaked out at the mention of covid, they just about want to sign up for voluntary euthanasia, if they test positive.


----------



## Knobby22 (10 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Or is it a case of her symptoms are so mild, as to not be noticed?
> Like I said a couple of days ago Rafa had full blown covid a couple of weeks ago, yesterday he won the Adelaide tennis tournament, even the more serious earlier strains of covid only had a mortality rate a a few percent and they were mainly old or had some underlying health issue.
> The problem now IMO, the general public is so freaked out at the mention of covid, they just about want to sign up for voluntary euthanasia, if they test positive.



1 in 450 Americans officially died of the former strain and it was actually higher in reality. Sure thats less than 1%. Being over 60 is an underlying condition as many died of strokes etc. I personally know a lady with 4 kids who survived but her lungs are so badly damaged she can no longer walk more than a few steps. Not just death.

Thank God this new variant is weaker.


----------



## IFocus (10 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Which really highlights sooner or later the let it rip option has to be adopted.
> Waiting for the next strain and the next vaccine, is just delaying the inevitable.
> IMO it is better to let a mild strain go through quickly and develop some herd immunity, than to allow it to fester and mutate into something really sinister which will happen eventually.




Its the devils choice let it rip over run the hospitals, then the next variant turns up glad I am not in the drivers seat


----------



## sptrawler (10 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> Its the devils choice let it rip over run the hospitals, then the next variant turns up glad I am not in the drivers seat



Its certainly a hard call but anything can still come out of Africa, getting some form of natural immunity through the population is imperative, it probably just buys the drug companies more time to get ahead of the curve.


----------



## macca (10 January 2022)

And now we have this situation, a large American Insurance Company states publicly that unexplained deaths in the 18-64 group are up FORTY percent.



Quote of official statement



> “Our data shows an increase in death rates in our business across the U.S., which aligns with what we’re seeing in national industry data. It is also in alignment with national publicly available data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Based upon our analysis of this national data, there has been a 40% increase in death rates for 18- to 64-year-old individuals across the U.S., when comparing Q3 2021 data to pre-pandemic data from the same period in 2019.
> During the third quarter of 2021, the CDC reported approximately 50,600 deaths in the 18-64 age group were due to COVID, while they reported 252,000 deaths overall during that same period for the 18-64 age group. The CDC defines only those individuals where COVID is listed on the death certificate as a cause/contributing factor in death in that total, but does not include other deaths which may be linked to co-morbidities or other COVID-19 influenced factors (delay in seeking medical care, inability to access medical care, etc.).
> We are not aware of any studies that have been conducted, but reference national CDC and industry data to inform our reporting.
> Our company privacy policies do not permit us to discuss or provide information regarding customer claims.
> ...


----------



## macca (10 January 2022)

Interesting stuff around today................

Channel Nine is actually telling people how to treat themselves at home, is the bubble about to Pop. 

Is Covid still "untreatable" and a vax the only solution or are we actually going to see some common sense.

What are some remedies for treating the virus at home?​Much like treating the common cold of flu, mild symptoms of COVID-19 can be managed in a similar way at home.
Regular doses of paracetamol or ibuprofen can be used to relieve pain and lower fevers. Lozenges can be used to sooth symptoms of a sore throat, as well as products containing electrolytes, and regular intake of fluids to keep the body hydrated.

Other methods such as breathing in steam using a vaporiser and applying a damp cloth to the forehead may also relieve some discomfort.
More details on how to manage specific symptoms and pain can be found here.
What should I avoid while sick?​While recovering from COVID-19, it's important that you let your body rest. While vaccinations will reduce the severity of the disease, your body needs time to combat the infection and lots of sleep and recuperation is essential.
Specific things to avoid include: strenuous activities, exercise, alcohol and drinks with high levels of caffeine.

Now all we have to do is shout from the roof tops "get some sunshine onya skin" and we may surf Omicron back to some sort of normal life









						As Omicron surges, here's the best way to treat COVID-19 at home
					






					www.9news.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (10 January 2022)

And in the midst of Covid, bubbles, lockdowns etc, out comes the Start of Year new Ad for Lamb.


Mick


----------



## sptrawler (10 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Is WA borders still shut?
> 
> God, I didn't even notice.



Yes W.A has successfully kept the virus out, but with that it has created its own problems, a lot of people have been reluctant to get vaccinated due to the perception it isn't required.

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...t-over-90-percent-target-20211110-p597uh.html

So now if the borders are opened it will be a very unpopular move, I mean very, very unpopular as most West Australians would prefer to just keep the borders closed.
So it looks like we are getting ready, after 2 years of bliss.










						Mark McGowan slams Commonwealth over COVID supplies, as vaccinations open for children
					

Premier Mark McGowan says WA has been snubbed by the Commonwealth with supplies of  rapid antigen tests and vaccines as young children become eligible for the jab.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## wayneL (10 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes W.A has successfully kept the virus out, but with that it has created its own problems, a lot of people have been reluctant to get vaccinated due to the perception it isn't required.
> 
> https://www.watoday.com.au/national...t-over-90-percent-target-20211110-p597uh.html
> 
> ...



MaoGowan also channelling Gunner/Macron, and other petty despots in the last few days.

I'm anticipating the distribution of special armbands for the faithful soon.


----------



## sptrawler (10 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> MaoGowan also channelling Gunner/Macron, and other petty despots in the last few days.
> 
> I'm anticipating the distribution of special armbands for the faithful soon.



I think he will be busy getting the teflon coating on, as all politicians worth their weight do.
Mirror practice, "it isn't my fault".


----------



## wayneL (10 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think he will be busy getting the teflon coating on, as all politicians worth their weight do.
> Mirror practice, "it isn't my fault".



I've ordered my yellow star, seriously.


----------



## wayneL (10 January 2022)

I'm hearing reports of Novak scoring a big win against the Australian Reich.

Perhaps the judiciary have our backs after all?


----------



## sptrawler (10 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> I'm hearing reports of Novak scoring a big win against the Australian Reich.
> 
> Perhaps the judiciary have our backs after all?



The Government had to apply the same call on him as everyone else, if the court overturns it, well that works the Government saves face and the let it rip gets a leg up, win/win.
The biggest controlled retreat since Dunkirk. 🤣









						Novak Djokovic wins visa court case but Immigration Minister still has decision to make
					

A spokesperson for Australia's Immigration Minister says no decision has been made on whether to allow Novak Djokovic to stay in Australia. As it happened.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (10 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> I'm hearing reports of Novak scoring a big win against the Australian Reich.
> 
> Perhaps the judiciary have our backs after all?



The Government wanted him to win to get out of it. Embarrassing. Honestly we look like hicks. All just to get a few votes.


----------



## cynic (10 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> I'm hearing reports of Novak scoring a big win against the Australian Reich.
> 
> Perhaps the judiciary have our backs after all?



There's still a possibility that he may yet be deported. Now Alex Hawke, is considering exercising his power, as immigration  minister, to cancel Novak's visa.


----------



## moXJO (10 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes W.A has successfully kept the virus out, but with that it has created its own problems, a lot of people have been reluctant to get vaccinated due to the perception it isn't required.
> 
> https://www.watoday.com.au/national...t-over-90-percent-target-20211110-p597uh.html
> 
> ...



So the new lamb ad rings true.


----------



## Humid (10 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes W.A has successfully kept the virus out, but with that it has created its own problems, a lot of people have been reluctant to get vaccinated due to the perception it isn't required.
> 
> https://www.watoday.com.au/national...t-over-90-percent-target-20211110-p597uh.html
> 
> ...



Keeping it out of iron ore and oil&gas is the tricky bit


----------



## SirRumpole (10 January 2022)

cynic said:


> There's still a possibility that he may yet be deported. Now Alex Hawke, is considering exercising his power, as immigration  minister, to cancel Novak's visa.



He should have waited for written confirmation that his excuse was acceptable to the government, otherwise its on his head what happens.


----------



## cynic (10 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> He should have waited for written confirmation that his excuse was acceptable to the government, otherwise its on his head what happens.



I cannot claim to be versed in all the relevant facts, but was led to believe that, government endorsed guidance, to the effect that he would be entitled to an exemption, on the grounds of having been infected with covid19 within the previous 6 months, had been published.

If so, then I fail to see how his complaint could be deemed unreasonable.


----------



## The Triangle (10 January 2022)

cynic said:


> I cannot claim to be versed in all the relevant facts, but was led to believe that, government endorsed guidance, to the effect that he would be entitled to an exemption, on the grounds of having been infected with covid19 within the previous 6 months, had been published.
> 
> If so, then I fail to see how his complaint could be deemed unreasonable.



All the people who have had covid in the past few weeks across Australia - is that grounds for not getting boosters or second or even first shots now?


----------



## cynic (10 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> All the people who have had covid in the past few weeks across Australia - is that grounds for not getting boosters or second or even first shots now?



That's  what I am loving about this situation!

It has cast an international spotlight on the disengenuousness of Australia's response to covid19.


----------



## The Triangle (10 January 2022)

cynic said:


> That's  what I am loving about this situation!
> 
> It has cast an international spotlight on the disengenuousness of Australia's response to covid19.



In fairness every country has cocked up.  But I agree we are truly a global embarrassment after today - no matter what happens or happened.   It's pathetic that Scomo and his dog💩 ministers still don't know what they are doing regarding Djokovic.  Probably waiting on Murdoch to tell them what to do.

_Immigration Minister Alex Hawke is still considering whether to cancel Novak Djokovic's visa_​_A spokesperson for the Immigration Minister, Alex Hawke, says he is still weighing up his decision on the Serbian tennis star.

"Following today’s Federal Circuit and Family Court determination on a procedural ground, it remains within Immigration Minister Hawke’s discretion to consider cancelling Mr Djokovic’s visa under his personal power of cancellation within section 133C(3) of the Migration Act," the spokesperson said. 

"The Minister is currently considering the matter and the process remains ongoing."_


----------



## wayneL (10 January 2022)

Today, _je suis Serbe_.


----------



## moXJO (10 January 2022)

cynic said:


> There's still a possibility that he may yet be deported. Now Alex Hawke, is considering exercising his power, as immigration  minister, to cancel Novak's visa.



Why the hell they decided to die on this hill in front of the whole world is beyond me.
Covid is already here. The vaccinated here are spreading omicron just fine.
The stupidity of all this is just next level.

It also shows that scomo is only 
"Mr Freedom" when it suits him. Otherwise laws don't seem to apply to him or the many many dckhead journalists calling for scalps.


----------



## qldfrog (11 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> All the people who have had covid in the past few weeks across Australia - is that grounds for not getting boosters or second or even first shots now?



If science was involved definitively but guess what.....


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Why the hell they decided to die on this hill in front of the whole world is beyond me.
> Covid is already here. The vaccinated here are spreading omicron just fine.
> The stupidity of all this is just next level.
> 
> ...



Politics, the vast majority of the sheep want to see hard borders as they are convinced they will die if they get covid, so the Djokovic incident shows them that the government still has their back.
They will have run the numbers, with an election around the corner, my MIL was cheering them on pitchfork in hand, I just roll my eyes. Lol
The media are missing the mark, they have been damning the unvaccinated, now they are cheering on an unvaccinated person, talk about losing focus. Lol


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

How is this thing called a vaccine?


----------



## Humid (11 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Politics, the vast majority of the sheep want to see hard borders as they are convinced they will die if they get covid, so the Djokovic incident shows them that the government still has their back.
> They will have run the numbers, with an election around the corner, my MIL was cheering them on pitchfork in hand, I just roll my eyes. Lol



Geez I hope the treasurer isnt doing the numbers.....


----------



## Humid (11 January 2022)

Checking how many Serbs live in marginal seats


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Geez I hope the treasurer isnt doing the numbers.....



Like I said earlier it's a win win, the government looks like it is still enforcing a hard borders despite tennis Aust and the Vic Gov trying to bypass it and the court gives the govt what it wants which is to let Djokovic in.
The media after spending months bagging the unvaccinated, are now championing an unvaccinated person, they are playing into the government's hand.
I wonder how long it will be before they wake up?
A bit hard now for the media to grumble about quarantine facilities, when they want to wave unvaccinated people through, why bother with quarantine? Lol absolute DH's


----------



## Humid (11 January 2022)

I think its not exactly the Tampa moment the Libs were looking for.
Makes a dogs breakfast of their hard border b/s
I can hear the booing on court already.....the circus is about to start


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

Humid said:


> I think its not exactly the Tampa moment the Libs were looking for.
> Makes a dogs breakfast of their hard border b/s
> I can hear the booing on court already.....the circus is about to start



All the minister has to say now is, we will allow this one through but in future all State decisions on overseas vaccine exemptions must be processed through the Feds, two birds with one stone Andrews gets a kick in the goolies and the Government can relax the hard borders as the media has supported it.
The whole thing is a pantomime.


----------



## moXJO (11 January 2022)

A lot of journalists were screeching to ban him from Australia and then suddenly flipped around when the perceived that political mileage could be made.

The whole saga was just dumb.


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> A lot of journalists were screeching to ban him from Australia and then suddenly flipped around when the perceived that political mileage could be made.
> 
> The whole saga was just dumb.



...and when he gets on court, we will see just how dumb the majority of the public is in misplaced anger.

It's going to be embarrassing.

<Edited to add link>








						DAN WOOTTON: Djokovic is the whipping boy for angry Australians
					

The shameful and scandalous Novak Djokovic court case was, like so many other pandemic-era made-for-media events, pure Covid theatre, writes DAN WOOTTON.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Humid (11 January 2022)




----------



## Humid (11 January 2022)

SP I think you are delusional,this is no win


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

Humid said:


> View attachment 135562
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok if Djokovic can come in unvaccinated, why can't everyone else? Who's delusional? Lol
The media are giving the Feds a hand to loosen the hard borders.

It was only a couple of weeks ago the media were going on about lack of testing and booster vaccine, now they are saying it isn't required if like Djokovic you have had covid. Muppets feeding chooks.


----------



## Humid (11 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Ok if Djokovic can come in unvaccinated, why can't everyone else? Who's delusional? Lol
> The media are giving the Feds a hand to loosen the hard borders.
> 
> It was only a couple of weeks ago the media were going on about lack of testing and booster vaccine, now they are saying it isn't required if like Djokovic you have had covid. Muppets feeding chooks.



Ask the people he was sharing his hotel with


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Ask the people he was sharing his hotel with



Better still ask the people who are trying to get back into Australia, who are vaccinated. Lol
Or people in Melbourne who can't get into watch the Australian open, because they aren't vaccinated and Andrews demands they get vaccinated.
What a joke.
The media says the Feds shouldn't make Djokovic into a vilian, yet the media has been making unvaccinated Australian's into vilians all last year, like I said Muppets feeding chooks.


----------



## Macquack (11 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> ...and when he gets on court, we will see just how dumb the majority of the public is in *misplaced anger.*



The anger will have nothing to do with Covid, more to do with him being a bull shiyt artist. 

"Cant reveal my vaccination status (none) because of "privacy" reasons."  F***ing pussy.

Hope Nadal kicks his arse.

Nothing to do with Covid, it is about the character of the man.


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

At last the penny has dropped with the SMH. Lol
A bit late, all the pro allowing Djokovic in have done their damage, dumb ar$e reporters.
First this that Djokovic shouldn't be made into a vilian.








						Djokovic case shows Morrison government has lost all perspective
					

The federal government’s attempt to turn the tennis star into a villain made the nation look like hicksville.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Then this when they start to understand the problem. Lol










						Morrison government is damned either way on Djokovic
					

Prime Minister Scott Morrison said Novak Djokovic should not be in the country, so any decision to allow him to stay will be a bad look for the tough-on-borders Coalition.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Like Morrison said, he shouldn't be here.
it brings all the mandates on vaccinations into question, if the requirement to be vaccinated doesn't stand up in court. Lol
So now according to the media, the right wing loonies who said as long as I have had covid and developed natural immunity, were correct all along?
I can't wait to see the first unvaccinated person refused entry, take the venue to court.
Good old Victoria going its own way, as usual, belt and road anyone? Lol


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

Macquack said:


> The anger will have nothing to do with Covid, more to do with him being a bull shiyt artist.
> 
> "Cant reveal my vaccination status (none) because of "privacy" reasons."  F***ing pussy.
> 
> ...



Thank you for proving my point.

BTW, the folks should be angry at the govt and it's handling of this. If the rules were clear, then Novak wouldn't never have got a visa in the first place.

The fact is he was issued with a visa by going through all the correct processes, at least to the best of his knowledge and in good faith. The decision of the supreme court has in fact, borne that out.

It is the government that has not known it's @ss from a hole in the head.

For what it's worth, I really do think there should be some consistency, especially with regards to our own citizens trying to return home. As we have consistently seen, the rich and famous have gotten special consideration over and above we plebeians. But that's not their fault that is the government applying rules inconsistently.

Be mad at this clusterf""k of a government... At both state and federal levels.


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Be mad at this clusterf""k of a government... At both state and federal levels.



It is going to be interesting to see if the unvaccinated are stopped from going to the Australian open.
There will be some very unhappy people, the unvaccinated if they aren't allowed in and the vaccinated if they are. Lol


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is going to be interesting to see if the unvaccinated are stopped from going to the Australian open.
> There will be some very unhappy people, the unvaccinated if they aren't allowed in and the vaccinated if they are. Lol



That's how they want it, bro. Divide and rule.


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> That's how they want it, bro. Divide and rule.



This issue could we'll bring things to a head IMO
You can lose your job unless you are vaxxed, unless you're a tennis player. Lol
Very very messy IMO

It's even divisive at player level.








						Tennis stars split over Djokovic exemption ‘circus’
					

Rafael Nadal is unimpressed by the show surrounding the deportation saga while Martina Navratilova believes the Serbian star needs to “take one for the team” by getting vaccinated.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## Humid (11 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Better still ask the people who are trying to get back into Australia, who are vaccinated. Lol
> Or people in Melbourne who can't get into watch the Australian open, because they aren't vaccinated and Andrews demands they get vaccinated.
> What a joke.
> The media says the Feds shouldn't make Djokovic into a vilian, yet the media has been making unvaccinated Australian's into vilians all last year, like I said Muppets feeding chooks.



Have you thought about changing the media you view


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Have you thought about changing the media you view



Why? I get great enjoyment out of reading what the chooks are being fed, it is very entertaining. 🤣

We even have Dan trying to back fill the hole now, I mean it doesn't get funnier than this, priceless. 








						Australia news LIVE: Novak Djokovic wins bid to play in 2022 Australian Open; COVID-19 cases continue to surge across the nation
					

Novak Djokovic trains at the Rod Laver Arena as a free man, NSW is considering whether to mandate the registration of positive rapid antigen test results, and Ambulance Victoria issues another “code red”.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Mr Andrews said Immigration Minister Alex Hawke should decide whether to evoke his discretionary powers to cancel Djokovic’s visa again, “free of any pressure of any public debate and discourse”.

“Because otherwise … I’m not a lawyer, but you might well find yourself back in the federal court again,” he said.

*And Tennis Australia with the shovel: (this begs the question, why didn't tennis Australia just demand he get vaxxed? rather than to circumvent the system, if that's what happened)* 🤣
“The ATP fully respects the sacrifices the people of Australia have made since the onset of COVID-19 and the stringent immigration policies that have been put in place,” the association said in a statement.

“Complications in recent days related to player entry into Australia have however highlighted the need for clearer understanding, communication and application of the rules.

“The series of events leading to Monday’s court hearing have been damaging on all fronts, including for Novak’s well-being and preparation for the Australian Open.”

The association strongly recommended vaccination for all players on tour, “which we believe is essential for our sport to navigate the pandemic”.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 January 2022)

The MSM seem to be glossing over the fact that Djokovic claimed that he  was infected with COVID on December 16th, and that means he could  not get vaccinated , and hence should have had an exemption.
The only problem is, there are numerous facebook pages and Serbian media reports showing him  maskless on subsequent days playing tennis with kids, accepting an award, and even posing with government officials as a Serbian stamp was issued with  his portrait. (must be the Serbian equivalent of the Queen). His family back in Serbia who have been most vocal up to this point, have remained remarkably silent when a few hard questions were asked about his public movements post Covid test.
This, plus his 'inadvisable" self promoted Tennis tournament in Serbia back in 2020 where a an unknown number of players got Covid, demonstrates a complete lack of care for anyone else.
The guy might be a great tennis player, maybe even the greatest, but he is still a selfish elitist areshole.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Have you thought about changing the media you view



Have you thought about thinking past the headlines? 🤣


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

Innerestin'


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The MSM seem to be glossing over the fact that Djokovic claimed that he  was infected with COVID on December 16th, and that means he could  not get vaccinated , and hence should have had an exemption.
> The only problem is, there are numerous facebook pages and Serbian media reports showing him  maskless on subsequent days playing tennis with kids, accepting an award, and even posing with government officials as a Serbian stamp was issued with  his portrait. (must be the Serbian equivalent of the Queen). His family back in Serbia who have been most vocal up to this point, have remained remarkably silent when a few hard questions were asked about his public movements post Covid test.
> This, plus his 'inadvisable" self promoted Tennis tournament in Serbia back in 2020 where a an unknown number of players got Covid, demonstrates a complete lack of care for anyone else.
> The guy might be a great tennis player, maybe even the greatest, but he is still a selfish elitist areshole.
> Mick



I just want to see how the process was circumvented, to get him here, I know a mate of mine is trying to get out and it is near bloody impossible with the paper work.
The judge setting a legal precedent, is the real issue, it undermines a lot of regulations that have been put in place.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I just want to see how the process was circumvented, to get him here, I know a mate of mine is trying to get out and it is near bloody impossible with the paper work.
> The judge setting a legal precedent, is the real issue, it undermines a lot of regulations that have been put in place.



Exactly.

And I can't wait to see the episode of Border Force  where this incident plays out, should get great ratings for Channel 7!
Mick


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

As to my previous point, Gideon nails it.


----------



## Humid (11 January 2022)

Like quarantine visas are a federal responsibilty


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

The truth bombs are coming thick and fast now


----------



## Macquack (11 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> The fact is he was issued with a visa by going through all the correct processes, at least to the *best of his knowledge and in good faith*. The decision of the supreme court has in fact, borne that out.



Djokovic tested positive to Covid on December 16, 2021. Same day he attends public function indoor with no mask. Me thinks, he is either irresponsible or maybe he does not have Covid at all? Tennis Australia's dodgy policy for exemptions required the player to have tested positive to Covid in the last six months. That ruled out Djokovic's  first encounter with Covid back in 2020. Someone better quickly dial Novak up  one of those positive PCR tests. A false- positive will be just perfect.


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

Macquack said:


> Djokovic tested positive to Covid on December 16, 2021. Same day he attends public function indoor with no mask. Me thinks, he is either irresponsible or maybe he does not have Covid at all? Tennis Australia's dodgy policy for exemptions required the player to have tested positive to Covid in the last six months. That ruled out Djokovic's  first encounter with Covid back in 2020. Someone better quickly dial Novak up  one of those positive PCR tests. A false- positive will be just perfect.



Let's see the precise timeline there.


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

How they lie(d) to you.

Any light bulbs going on, gents?


----------



## wayneL (11 January 2022)

He makes a great point... And it wouldn't take much for me to brush up on my Español. 
larga vida a la libertad!


----------



## qldfrog (11 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I just want to see how the process was circumvented, to get him here, I know a mate of mine is trying to get out and it is near bloody impossible with the paper work.
> The judge setting a legal precedent, is the real issue, it undermines a lot of regulations that have been put in place.



It is call freedom and science.
But everyone is happy we are getting more and more fivided, the shaking in their boots raging that the vaccine which was supposed to fix everything is not working and useless, with de facto law admitting it.
Denial before anything


----------



## Macquack (11 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Let's see the precise timeline there.







__





						Federal government looking into whether Djokovic lied on travel form
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## DB008 (11 January 2022)

Seems like the masks that most of society have been wearing, are basically useless against Omicron due to how contagious this strain is. Unless the Government issues N/K 95 masks, it would make sense to make masks optional or just get rid of them altogether. I think Omicron has a R10. That is crazy high. Data has also shown us that Omicron isn't as fatal as Delta and if your under 50 with a jab, it'll be just a mild flu (if you don't have underlying health issues) for a couple of days, and thats it.

QR Code check-in is dead in the water.

Omicron is the endemic, until the next deadlier strain arrives.

Time to let it rip, and build up natural immunity.

Palletjack still has 14 days isolation for international incoming by air (regardless if you have Covid-19 or not) but 7 days if you reside here and become infected, work that one out...? Good thing she built quarantine facilities in Pinkenba and Toowoomba.    


.


----------



## DB008 (12 January 2022)

*Project Veritas Releases Military Documents That Affirm What We Already Know About Fauci: He’s a Liar*

Project Veritas released documents from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Monday night which appear to contradict NIH Director Dr. Anthony Fauci’s sworn testimony regarding gain of function research, suggest that effective Covid-19 therapeutics were recognized and suppressed, and the agencies were aware of the dangers and poor efficacy of the mRNA vaccines.

One document claims that EcoHealth Alliance approached DARPA in March 2018 looking to obtain funding for Project Defuse to conduct gain of function research of coronaviruses from bats.

According to Project Veritas, the proposal was rejected by DARPA because it violated a gain of function research moratorium and there were safety concerns.

However the documents indicate that, NIAID, under the direction of Dr. Fauci, nevertheless proceeded with the research at the Wuhan Virology Lab in China and at several sites other across the US.

An August 2021 report from Commandant of Marine Corps DARPA Fellow Major Joseph Murphy to the US Inspector General “goes on to detail concern regarding the COVID-19 gain of function program, the concealment of documents, the suppression of potential curatives, like Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine, and the [risks of the] mRNA vaccines,” writes Project Veritas.

Specifically, the report to the US Inspector General notes that both Ivermectin and Hydroxychloriquine were “identified [in] April 2020 [as] curative,” the “gene-encoded, or ‘mRNA,’ vaccines work poorly… the symptoms of the vaccine reactions mirror the symptoms of the disease,” and “the DOD now mandates vaccines that copy the spike protein previously deemed too dangerous.”


----------



## barney (12 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> *Project Veritas Releases Military Documents That Affirm What We Already Know About Fauci: He’s a Liar*
> 
> 
> Specifically, the report to the US Inspector General notes that both Ivermectin and Hydroxychloriquine were “identified [in] April 2020 [as] curative,” the “gene-encoded, or ‘mRNA,’ vaccines work poorly… the symptoms of the vaccine reactions mirror the symptoms of the disease,” and “the DOD now mandates vaccines that copy the spike protein previously deemed too dangerous.”​




Assuming those documents are admissible, I smell a law suit or 3 in the making.  Get set for the next round of Fauci lies of course. 

Trouble is, he and his cronies have made so much money from their corruption, they will tie the courts up for the next 10 years

Fortunately there are a few US lawyers not on the take who will be happy to go after the crooks.  Stage left- "Aaron Siri".


----------



## rederob (12 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> *Project Veritas Releases Military Documents That Affirm What We Already Know About Fauci: He’s a Liar*
> 
> Project Veritas released documents from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Monday night which appear to contradict NIH Director Dr. Anthony Fauci’s sworn testimony regarding gain of function research, suggest that effective Covid-19 therapeutics were recognized and suppressed, and the agencies were aware of the dangers and poor efficacy of the mRNA vaccines.
> 
> ...



This is about as accurate as your continuing stream of posts falsely claiming Trump won the 2020 election.


----------



## sptrawler (12 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Politics, the vast majority of the sheep want to see hard borders as they are convinced they will die if they get covid, so the Djokovic incident shows them that the government still has their back.
> They will have run the numbers, with an election around the corner, my MIL was cheering them on pitchfork in hand, I just roll my eyes. Lol
> The media are missing the mark, they have been damning the unvaccinated, now they are cheering on an unvaccinated person, talk about losing focus. Lol



As I said there are a lot of people who will be siding with the Government on this, most will do it quietly.
Obviously news readers have to read from a script, so as not to upset the loonies.









						Channel Seven responds to leaked newsreader spray of Novak Djokovic
					

Channel 7 Melbourne newsreaders Mike Amor and Rebecca Maddern ripped into Novak Djokovic in an off-camera exchange that has been leaked on line, going…



					www.theroar.com.au


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (12 January 2022)

Canada is about to levy a tax on the unvaccinated. 

Quebec to impose health tax on unvaccinated

gg


----------



## mullokintyre (12 January 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Canada is about to levy a tax on the unvaccinated.
> 
> Quebec to impose health tax on unvaccinated
> 
> gg



And Germany have decided to treat those who are vaxed twice, but not had a third booster shot exactly the same as if the completely unvaxed. looks like they will be getting booster shots forever.

In Germany, the double vaccinated have been banned from restaurants as of today. Now, you need to have a booster shot or a negative test performed in the past 24 hours to be allowed in.
Double vaccinated are treated the same as zero vaccinated now.



edit, for some reason there is now a change in the way Twitter is treated in this site.
The twits no longer show up in the media link.
Must be something that has been introduced recently, as previous quoted twits would show.
Mick


----------



## The Triangle (12 January 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Canada is about to levy a tax on the unvaccinated.
> 
> Quebec to impose health tax on unvaccinated
> 
> gg



Worked in Canada years ago.  Strange people, never will you see a population so brainwashed by its government(s).   Interesting story below.  They've more or less said they'll bring in mandatory vaccinations. 









						Quebec plans to hit unvaccinated with a 'significant' tax
					

The 'health contribution' announced by Premier Legault would become the first such tax in Canada




					nationalpost.com
				




I've said before I'm vaccinated but I hate these mandatory rules.    Maybe make it mandatory if you're over the age of 60.   That's about it.


----------



## The Triangle (12 January 2022)

‘Crisis’: Outrage over surprise RAT move
					

Anthony Albanese has slammed the Prime Minister for failing to learn from the pandemic after it was revealed the government quietly put out an urgent tender for rapid antigen tests.




					www.news.com.au
				




...Will the company associated with Julie Bishops family be involved?









						The entrepreneurs riding the rapid test rollercoaster
					

Some well-known names are meeting Australia’s insatiable demand for rapid coronavirus tests.




					www.afr.com


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (12 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Worked in Canada years ago.  Strange people, never will you see a population so brainwashed by its government(s).   Interesting story below.  They've more or less said they'll bring in mandatory vaccinations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Garpal Gumnut said:


> Canada is about to levy a tax on the unvaccinated.
> 
> Quebec to impose health tax on unvaccinated
> 
> gg



Yes, I would agree on the Canadians, quite a bunch of Conformists. 

I'm undecided on whether we should boil in oil the un-vaccinated or not. I'm vaccinated and I believe it is a better way to go than "letting it rip", but am of a libertarian/anarchic mindset at the best of times. 

I must admit that democracy is il-fitted for dealing with a pandemic. 

I also hold oil shares. 

gg


----------



## wayneL (12 January 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Yes, I would agree on the Canadians, quite a bunch of Conformists.
> 
> I'm undecided on whether we should boil in oil the un-vaccinated or not. I'm vaccinated and I believe it is a better way to go than "letting it rip", but am of a libertarian/anarchic mindset at the best of times.
> 
> ...



I was born in Canada but please don't hold that against me LOL.

As a counterpoint I'm actually undecided whether we should boil the vaccinated in oil or not.... 

As such it would actually fulfill the elite's depopulation agenda, as well as eliminating those unable to analyse objective data.

But it will probably be pretty lonely here


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (12 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> ‘Crisis’: Outrage over surprise RAT move
> 
> 
> Anthony Albanese has slammed the Prime Minister for failing to learn from the pandemic after it was revealed the government quietly put out an urgent tender for rapid antigen tests.
> ...



You betcha.

gg


----------



## barney (12 January 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I'm undecided on whether we should boil in oil the un-vaccinated or not.
> 
> I also hold oil shares. gg




Quality each-way punter by the sounds GG



I see that @wayneL 's video reference to the Pfizer boss a couple of pages back has been removed due to "copywrite"

Basically the Pfizer Skipper was saying that the vaccine is becoming pretty ineffective over a short time frame

Copy of the Tweet Wayne originally showed below (minus the video)










I guess he had to toe the line with that revelation given a few recent studies including one printed in the a "Lancet" confirmed similar.

In a nutshell,  the vax was very handy against the original Virus

Mildly helpful against Delta compared to being unvaccinated (may get you out of hospital a couple of days earlier than being un-vaxxed)

And any benefit over Omicron (debatable)  will last maybe a month! 

Not sure how many are keen to be "needled" every month for the indefinite future


Will try and re-find the study and post link later just in case it proves to be "misinformation"


----------



## wayneL (12 January 2022)

How foolish do y'all betwetters feel now?









						'Need to come to terms': Expert urges 'perspective' on Omicron wave
					






					www.google.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (12 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> How foolish do y'all betwetters feel now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I dont think the majority of people want to believe what the professor is saying, most seem to be enjoying the excitement of treating it like the black plague, people just love drama thats what the media relies on.


----------



## barney (13 January 2022)

barney said:


> Will try and re-find the study and post link later just in case it proves to be "misinformation"







Lancet Study as mentioned.  Link:  Lancet study

Brief excerpt:


----------



## barney (13 January 2022)

rederob said:


> This is about as accurate as your continuing stream of posts falsely claiming Trump won the 2020 election.




Not so sure about that.

US Senator Roger Marshall M.D. seems to think there is enough validity in the documents to grill Fauci in Congress

Presenting false information in Congress is a criminal offence, although it doesn't seem to affect Fauci's ability to lie.

He does attempt to weasel out of the Senator's question after the clip shown, but very poorly, and very nervously it appeared.





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## noirua (13 January 2022)

England Summary | Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK
					

Official Coronavirus (COVID-19) disease situation dashboard with latest data in the UK.




					coronavirus.data.gov.uk
				




Deaths​There were *398* deaths within 28 days of a positive test for coronavirus reported on 12 January 2022.
Between 6 January 2022 and 12 January 2022, there have been *1,724* deaths within 28 days of a positive coronavirus test. This shows an increase of *44.3%* compared to the previous 7 days.
Most of the UK deaths are middle aged people and not elderly. This is because it is spreading much more slowly into the older population and most elderly have received their third booster injection.


----------



## noirua (13 January 2022)

COVID-19 United States Cases by County - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

Johns Hopkins U.S. County Level COVID-19 Tracking Map




					coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## noirua (13 January 2022)

__





						States ranked by COVID-19 death rates
					

As of October 29, more than 743,000 people in the U.S. had died after contracting COVID-19, according to The New York Times.




					www.beckershospitalreview.com
				




Average deaths per day is 1,579 as at 12 January 2022. 
As of Jan. 12, more than 840,000 people in the U.S. had died after contracting COVID-19, according to _The New York Times._


----------



## barney (13 January 2022)

Yeah definitely nothing worth looking at here   

I wonder whether Fauci will continue to lie (of course he will),  or perhaps retire and leave the mess to his mate Daszac and crew.


----------



## noirua (13 January 2022)

Coronavirus (COVID-19) case numbers and statistics
					

This page provides updates about the current situation, latest case numbers and related information. It is updated every day by 9 pm AEST and reflects the previous 24 hours.




					www.health.gov.au


----------



## rederob (13 January 2022)

barney said:


> In a nutshell,  the vax was very handy against the original Virus
> Mildly helpful against Delta compared to being unvaccinated (may get you out of hospital a couple of days earlier than being un-vaxxed)
> And any benefit over Omicron (debatable)  will last maybe a month!
> Not sure how many are keen to be "needled" every month for the indefinite future
> Will try and re-find the study and post link later just in case it proves to be "misinformation"



The Lancet study you quoted related to "transmission", and Omicron is the most contagious of the variants to date.
All the data show that vaccinations reduce severe illness, hospitalisations, and death rates.  They are major reasons vaccinations strategies are implemented.
From your quoted link:
"Our findings help to explain how and why the delta variant is being transmitted so effectively in populations with high vaccine coverage. Although current vaccines remain effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination alone is not sufficient to prevent all transmission of the delta variant in the household setting, where exposure is close and prolonged. Increasing population immunity via booster programmes and vaccination of teenagers will help to increase the currently limited effect of vaccination on transmission, but our analysis suggests that direct protection of individuals at risk of severe outcomes, via vaccination and non-pharmacological interventions, will remain central to containing the burden of disease caused by the delta variant."​


----------



## rederob (13 January 2022)

barney said:


> Not so sure about that.
> 
> US Senator Roger Marshall M.D. seems to think there is enough validity in the documents to grill Fauci in Congress
> 
> ...



What evidence was presented to show his claims were supported?  Exactly none! (see the full exchange below)
Roger Marshall is incompetent and a moron..
Fauci continues to deal with people who simply do not know what they are talking about.  It's hard to convince people who believe in something because it's supported by social media rather than facts.

It doesn't seem to matter how many times this issue is debunked as cretins keep coming out of the woodwork.


----------



## DB008 (13 January 2022)

Look at the ABC pushing this agenda. 


If my child or I have COVID, when can we get our vaccine or booster shot?​
But based on vaccinology principles, it would be reasonable to consider waiting at least three months after you're well to get your booster dose. A COVID infection stimulates the immune system like a vaccine, meaning you will produce antibodies that help increase your protection against COVID.​
Vaccination can also be deferred for up to six months if preferred, as past infection does reduce the chance of reinfection for at least this amount of time, but there is still much we don't know about the Omicron variant.​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-12/covid-vaccine-booster-after-testing-positive/100752018​


How about NO!

F-Off

I've had Covid, why get the jab after the fact?

In the USA, some common sense.


NCAA releases updated COVID-19 guidance for winter sports​​For purposes of the winter guidelines, the NCAA COVID-19 Medical Advisory Group has developed a definition of "fully vaccinated" that considers both vaccination status and other immunity factors that may impact risks for Tier 1 individuals, including student-athletes and coaches. Those considered fully vaccinated include people:​

Within two months of having completed the primary series of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine (one dose).
Within five months of having completed the primary series of the mRNA Pfizer vaccine, or within six months of having completed the primary series of the mRNA Moderna vaccine (two doses for both).
Who have received a booster vaccine if they are beyond two months of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine or beyond five or six months of the mRNA Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, respectively.
*A person who has had a documented COVID-19 infection in the past 90 days is considered the equivalent of "fully vaccinated."*​

https://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/arti...eases-updated-covid-19-guidance-winter-sports​

.


----------



## Belli (13 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> I've had Covid, why get the jab after the fact?






> Yes, the COVID-19 vaccines are recommended, even if you had COVID-19. At present, evidence from Johns Hopkins Medicine and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) supports getting a COVID-19 vaccine as the best protection against getting COVID-19, whether you have already had the virus or not.




The studies supporting the statement are below it and can be found in this link to the article.









						COVID Natural Immunity: What You Need to Know
					

Even if you’ve already had COVID-19, getting a coronavirus vaccine is recommended. These are the things you need to know about COVID natural immunity.




					www.hopkinsmedicine.org


----------



## DB008 (13 January 2022)

Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine -​but vaccination remains vital​
Israelis who had an infection were more protected against the Delta coronavirus variant than those who had an already highly effective COVID-19 vaccine​
The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.​
The study demonstrates the power of the human immune system, but infectious disease experts emphasized that this vaccine and others for COVID-19 nonetheless remain highly protective against severe disease and death. And they caution that intentional infection among unvaccinated people would be extremely risky. “What we don’t want people to say is: ‘All right, I should go out and get infected, I should have an infection party,’” says Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at Rockefeller University who researches the immune response to SARS-CoV-2 and was not involved in the study. “Because somebody could die.”​
The researchers also found that people who had SARS-CoV-2 previously and received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine were more highly protected against reinfection than those who once had the virus and were still unvaccinated. The new work could inform discussion of whether previously infected people need to receive both doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine or the similar mRNA vaccine from Moderna. Vaccine mandates don’t necessarily exempt those who had a SARS-CoV-2 infection already and the current U.S. recommendation is that they be fully vaccinated, which means two mRNA doses or one of the Johnson & Johnson adenovirus-based vaccine. Yet one mRNA dose might be enough, some scientists argue. And other countries including Germany, France, Italy, and Israel administer just one vaccine dose to previously infected people.​
The study, conducted in one of the most highly COVID-19–vaccinated countries in the world, examined medical records of tens of thousands of Israelis, charting their infections, symptoms, and hospitalizations between 1 June and 14 August, when the Delta variant predominated in Israel. It’s the largest real-world observational study so far to compare natural and vaccine-induced immunity to SARS-CoV-2, according to its leaders.​
The research impresses Nussenzweig and other scientists who have reviewed a preprint of the results, posted yesterday on medRxiv. “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,” says Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute who studies the immune responses to SARS-CoV-2. “To my knowledge, it’s the first time [this] has really been shown in the context of COVID-19.”​

https://www.science.org/content/art...er-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital



.​


----------



## moXJO (13 January 2022)

Did the head of Pfizer just come out and say you are not protected by double dose at all and "they offer reasonable protection against hospitalisation and deaths – against deaths".

They are currently working on a omicron vaccine. So the third shot might be a waste of time unless you are in the risk category.

Personally I'm done with the vaccines for a bit. And I'm not having my 5 year olds getting jabbed if it's not going to do anything.

I've had omicron as has the family. So I should be right for a while.


----------



## DB008 (13 January 2022)

​Frequent Boosters Spur Warning on Immune Response​​European Union regulators warned that frequent Covid-19 booster shots could adversely affect the immune response and may not be feasible.​
Repeat booster doses every four months could eventually weaken the immune response and tire out people, according to the European Medicines Agency. Instead, countries should leave more time between booster programs and tie them to the onset of the cold season in each hemisphere, following the blueprint set out by influenza vaccination strategies, the agency said. ​
The advice comes as some countries consider the possibility of offering people second booster shots in a bid to provide further protection against surging omicron infections. Earlier this month Israel became the first nation to start administering a second booster, or fourth shot, to those over 60. The U.K. has said that boosters are providing good levels of protection and there is no need for a second booster shot at the moment, but will review data as it evolves. ​
Boosters “can be done once, or maybe twice, but it’s not something that we can think should be repeated constantly,” Marco Cavaleri, the EMA head of biological health threats and vaccines strategy, said at a press briefing on Tuesday. “We need to think about how we can transition from the current pandemic setting to a more endemic setting.”​
The EU regulator also said at the briefing that oral and intravenous antivirals, such as Paxlovid and Remdesivir, maintain their efficacy against omicron. The agency said that April is the soonest it could approve a new vaccine targeting a specific variant, as the process  takes about three to four months. Some of the world’s largest vaccine-makers have said they are looking at producing vaccines that could target new variants. ​

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says


.​


----------



## The Triangle (13 January 2022)

Man’s penis shrinks after Covid diagnosis
					

A man claims his penis has shrunk by almost 4cm due to Covid, and doctors say it can’t be fixed.




					www.news.com.au
				




How much did Pfizer pay news.com to publish this?

What a joke.  I see censorship only works one way for covid lies.

Yesterday there was another BS story about vaxx curing skin conditions.


----------



## moXJO (13 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Man’s penis shrinks after Covid diagnosis
> 
> 
> A man claims his penis has shrunk by almost 4cm due to Covid, and doctors say it can’t be fixed.
> ...



Yeah I saw that "wart removal" story.


----------



## barney (13 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Roger Marshall is incompetent and a moron..
> Fauci continues to deal with people who simply do not know what they are talking about.




I actually agree that Senator Marshall could have grilled Fauci way better.  

Fauci did "deal" with the questions very well, no doubt ..... By evading the actual question as usual 

Fauci is a pathological liar.  Anyone who cant see that based on the known information is wearing blinkers.




DARPA rejected the ECO-Health request for grant money because they considered the "gain of function" research too risky etc

ECO-H had and did get their funding cash via the NIH (Fauci) to continue the same gain of function research in the Wuhan lab

The same g-o-f research which had already been carried out at Chapel Hill etc in the US but got shut down

The money trail and the paper trail continue to grow.  

The only thing we don't know yet is the full extent of the lies and corruption.  I suspect it will eventually come out.


----------



## Humid (13 January 2022)




----------



## wayneL (13 January 2022)

At least the coppers are "keeping us safe" by arresting real villains. This person was obviously a danger to society' and truly warranted diverting police resources away from, domestic violence, street gangs, and organised crime.


----------



## mullokintyre (13 January 2022)

In the debate about RATs  it makes interesting reading to look at some of the 'debate" before the RATS became an essential item.
Ellume is an Australian company that has been producing RATS for some time.
From an article that was produced by The Australian back inOctober 8th 2020 


> A Brisbane medical technology company says it has found the key to returning the world back to some kind of normality and has received $US30m ($42.1m) from the US government to roll it off production lines.
> Ellume has developed three COVID-19 tests that can be completed in less than 15 minutes and be deployed at airports, stadiums and offices, in an effort to end mass lockdowns and contain the virus. Chief executive and founder Sean Parsons said the tests should be available for use in the US within weeks.
> 
> But Australians will have to wait much longer. “We have been having discussions with the Queensland state government, which have largely fallen on deaf ears,” Dr Parsons said. “The Australian government also knows we are here and what we are doing, but again there hasn’t been anywhere near the same kind of engagement as the US.
> ...



So neither the Feds nor QLD state govt were interested, and the funding came from the US.
There was a bit of a  snag however, when  2 million kits were recalled because of false positives.
From SARA


> The FDA’s recall is a Class I, meaning it is “the most serious” of the types of recalls. The FDA warned that “Use of these tests may cause serious adverse health consequences or death.”
> 
> “The Ellume COVID-19 Home Test is an antigen test that detects proteins from the SARS-CoV-2 virus from a nasal sample in people two years of age or older. The Ellume COVID-19 Home Test is available without a prescription for use by people with or without COVID-19 symptoms,” the FDA explained, adding, “The FDA issued an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) on December 15, 2020 and authorized a revision to the EUA on February 11, 2021 to allow emergency use of the Ellume COVID-19 Home Test.”



The TGA in its enormous wisdom did not approve of ANY of the RAT testing until November 1st, and   only put out a list of approved tests Yesterday (see TGA Approved tests  ). There are 22 different  tests approved, 16 of which come from China, 2 from the USA, one each from Korea, Singapore, Germany, and Australia.  Was a bit surprised that the one Australian manufacturer was not Immune, but a company in Mulgrave Victoria, Innovation Scientific. So it seems that the connection to the liberal party was too much of a hurdle.
Perhaps they were scared off because of this article.



> Health Minister Greg Hunt has denied accusations he interfered in a regulator's decision on whether to review a self-testing flu kit made by a Liberal donor's company.
> 
> Emails obtained under freedom of information show Mr Hunt's office was "very keen" for the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) to review the use of self-diagnosing devices, including for the flu.
> It followed an enquiry about Ellume, and its flu-test device, to Mr Hunt's office. Ellume's chair is multi-millionaire entrepreneur Paul Darrouzet, who donated $100,000 to the federal Liberal party in 2017 and has also donated to the Queensland Liberal National Party.
> ...



There is no doubt that the Feds have screwed up on this, but put all the blame on them is a bit rich, especially as every step of the way has been politicised.
Imagine the headlines if Hunt had decided to order 32 million  kits before the ATAGI had approved them in the hope that  they would pick the ones he ordered, and then got it wrong.
ATAGI, slower than Molasses, and nowhere near as useful.
Mick


----------



## basilio (13 January 2022)

Economic effect of COVID on business is now worse than during lockdown.  Many businesses are just not viable with staff sick or isolating, customers staying home and supply chains in chaos. 

I wonder when governments will revive business support payments ?









						‘Code red’: Melbourne businesses say Omicron wave more damaging than lockdown
					

Staff shortages and drop in consumer confidence leave Australian businesses asking for urgent government support




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## macca (13 January 2022)

barney said:


> Quality each-way punter by the sounds GG
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A link to Mr Pfizer with his foot in his mouth









						Pfizer CEO says two doses provide ‘limited protection, if any’
					

Pfizer’s chief executive has revealed that two doses of its current Covid-19 vaccine offer “very limited protection, if any” against the Omicron variant.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## The Triangle (13 January 2022)

basilio said:


> I wonder when governments will revive business support payments ?




Hopefully never!  but probably soon as the elites will need another booster shot of wealth transfer from the poor.  

Everyone is getting covid, everyone is spreading covid.  It cannot be stopped (except in WA)  unless everyone is locked down for a month with the government issuing shoot to kill orders for anyone seen in public.   Government really should completely give up.  Everyone is going to have covid by the end of January.

These politicians have zero plan to ever let us go back to normal.  They want this dictator power forever.


----------



## basilio (13 January 2022)

One of the outcomes of COVID is long COVID.  People who pick up the virus but never recover properly.

The ongoing effects for these people range from debilitating  to disastrous. Long COVID seems to be affecting between 10-30% of initial sufferers.  

My wife had long Covid and killed herself. We must help others who are suffering​Nick Güthe


The medical community must find answers for those suffering from long Covid. They are running out of time and hope




Seen here with her husband Nick Güthe and the actor Jeff Goldblum, Heidi Ferrer was a screenwriter who worked on shows including Dawson’s Creek. Photograph: Dave Allocca/Starpix/Rex/Shutterstock
Wed 12 Jan 2022 22.17 AEDT
Last modified on Thu 13 Jan 2022 01.26 AEDT


My wife, Heidi, took her own life after a 13-month battle with long Covid that started as a mostly asymptomatic coronavirus infection. Long Covid took her from one of the healthiest, most vibrant people I’ve ever known to a person so debilitated that she could not bear another day on this planet.

I came home one day last May to find that she’d decided to end her pain. As our 13-year-old son waited outside for the paramedics, I tried desperately to revive her. I did a good enough job that by the time we got her to the hospital they could restart her heart, but she was brain dead on arrival. The emergency room doctor assumed that she died from depression. When I told him, “She wasn’t depressed, it was long Covid,” he looked at me with bewilderment and asked, “What’s long Covid?”

Late last night I got a desperate Twitter message from a man whose wife could be the next Heidi. She has long Covid and was threatening to end her life. She had already told their eight-year-old daughter her plan. I called him immediately. Heidi and his wife both suffered from unexplained neurological tremors and internal chest cavity vibrations so bad they lost the ability to sleep.









						My wife had long Covid and killed herself. We must help others who are suffering | Nick Güthe
					

The medical community must find answers for those suffering from long Covid. They are running out of time and hope




					www.theguardian.com
				












						How many people get ‘long COVID’ – and who is most at risk?
					

‘Long COVID’ – in which people have symptoms lasting more than a few weeks – is turning out to be very common. People hospitalized for COVID-19 are at highest risk, but they aren’t alone.




					theconversation.com


----------



## basilio (13 January 2022)

The pressure on ICU places caused by COVID is now overwhelming. What happens when push comes to shove ?

My bile rises as I’m asked to move my dying cancer patient out of ICU to make room for an unvaccinated man with Covid​Ranjana Srivastava




I understand that for a chance at survival, the Covid patient needs a ventilator, but in a career filled with ethical dilemmas, this one really tugs at me









						My bile rises as I’m asked to move my dying cancer patient out of ICU to make room for an unvaccinated man with Covid | Ranjana Srivastava
					

I understand that for a chance at survival, the Covid patient needs a ventilator, but in a career filled with ethical dilemmas, this one really tugs at me




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## wayneL (13 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> At least the coppers are "keeping us safe" by arresting real villains. This person was obviously a danger to society' and truly warranted diverting police resources away from, domestic violence, street gangs, and organised crime.





Welcome to the Union of Soviet Socialist 'Strayan States where having a cup of tea with friends us a crime.

This country is disgraceful.









						Woman arrested at cafe over vax status
					

A Queensland woman is sporting bruises on her arm after being arrested outside a cafe where she was accused of refusing to provide police with her vaccination status.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## barney (13 January 2022)

basilio said:


> My wife, Heidi, took her own life after a 13-month battle with long Covid





That is *100%* genuinely a terrible and sad event. 



basilio said:


> My bile rises as I’m asked to move my dying cancer patient out of ICU to make room for an unvaccinated man with Covid




This on the other hand,

is just plain *gutter media* at its worst.  (Not directed at you at all @basilio just to confirm) 

(I'm sorry for this patient and any other sick patient of course)  



When the media goes down this "beat up the un-vaxxed" at every turn with *ever diminishing* Scientific reasoning

They show just how far *scum journalists* will go to create a headline that keeps their pay cheque at the end of the week. 

Now my bile is rising, lol.  I can't believe people actually get conned by all this polarizing agenda.  

Has this "vaccine" ( that doesn't actually work very well) taken away everyone's ability to think rationally, or for themselves?!


For the record, and in my small world .... A high percentage of my good friends at the local Bowls Club have come down with Covid

Poor b@stards indeed is how I feel. They are my mates!

*All fully vaxxed and/or boosted* till the cows come home (rural area)  with their Government approved/suggested "safety net"

When some (hopefully not all for God's sake) end up at the local Hospital and put some poor cancer patient out in the hall

Will the *scum Journalists* (I repeat my bolds for dramatic effect ) be any where to be found I ask?



And will they mention that 90% of the Covid cases in our local area are all fully vaxxed etc etc and taking up hospital space??


At the expense of real sick people?  Of course they wont.  

The unvaccinated started the pandemic and the unvaccinated have perpetuated the pandemic (Apparently)

And the unvaccinated (5-10% )  are causing  all the "safe and effectively" vaccinated to get sick  (Apparently)


Time to wake up to the true reality methinks. 

Rant over  (for now)   My BILE is starting to bubble as well.


----------



## greggles (13 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Welcome to the Union of Soviet Socialist 'Strayan States where having a cup of tea with friends us a crime.
> 
> This country is disgraceful.
> 
> ...



When are Australians going to say "no" to authoritarianism? We have less freedom today than those living in the Soviet Union had. Getting arrested while having a cup of tea because you didn't present the correct identity papers? If someone told us three years ago that this would be happening in Australia in 2022, what would we have said?


----------



## rederob (13 January 2022)

barney said:


> When the media goes down this "beat up the un-vaxxed" at every turn with *ever diminishing* Scientific reasoning



The scientific evidence is unequivocal: less chance of hospitalisation, severe illness and death.


barney said:


> Time to wake up to the true reality methinks.



There are hundreds of millions of data records confirming the disproportionate impact of the unvaxxed on hospitalisations etc..   Your reality differs from facts yet again.


----------



## barney (13 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Your reality differs from facts yet again.




Not where I live it doesn't!   The vaccines have stopped being effective Red .... time to admit it  .... or not  

No doubt everyone will be waiting for the Pfizer Bosses new promise of an updated vaccine designed to actually stop *Omicron*

Next March wasn't it?



Fair dinkum ... They can have an upgraded Vax in* 2 months* to a variant that is (super transmissible, yes) (very nasty, not particularly)

But while everybody was dropping like flies with the far more deadly Delta variant for *"an extended period"*....

*Crickets were singing* with regard to any word on an upgraded vaccine that would work against that??  (Questions anyone?)

Oh thats right ... The media was still telling us how effective the original "vaccine" was against Delta (as people died and cases rose!)


Is anybody actually paying attention to what we are being fed?  Seriously.


----------



## barney (13 January 2022)

Its all fake news initiated by the un-vaxxed of course   

To be honest, I don't care which news site it comes from, it seems to be "happening"  (That is the second site that came up in my search)


My agenda is not to say I'm right.  My agenda is to say, I suspect we have been "sold" a pack of lies. 


More importantly:

People need to take precautions against getting sick  (prophylaxis  or early treatment protocols that actually help)


----------



## rederob (13 January 2022)

barney said:


> Its all fake news initiated by the un-vaxxed of course
> 
> To be honest, I don't care which news site it comes from, it seems to be "happening"  (That is the second site that came up in my search)
> 
> ...



*This *links to the latest UK data and *totally contradicts *your link, which only shows infectiousness rather than severity:





As the above shows a disproportionate number of unvaxxed become severely ill, get hospitalised and, ultimately, die.
On the other hand, those boosted are much less likely than those double vaxxed to get ill etc..
So yet again the real world is very different to your poorly based beliefs.
​


----------



## mullokintyre (14 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> In the debate about RATs  it makes interesting reading to look at some of the 'debate" before the RATS became an essential item.
> Ellume is an Australian company that has been producing RATS for some time.
> From an article that was produced by The Australian back inOctober 8th 2020
> 
> ...





> It seems that someone from The ABC must read  ASF. They are on the bandwagon sortof.
> As Australians struggle to get hold of a COVID-19 rapid antigen test, several Australian companies have been waiting months for local approval of their RATs.
> 
> Currently, only one of the 22 home tests approved by Australia's Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) is made locally, with 16 sourced from China, two from the US and the others from Korea, Singapore and Germany.
> ...





> AnteoTech lodged its application in September, as did Lumos Diagnostics; both have been asked to submit further information.
> 
> "We're working with the TGA on adding some additional clinical data to the application," Mr Lanyon said.
> 
> ...




How is it that the overseas players , particularly the Chinese ones were able to get their RATS approved ahead of the OZ orgs?
Especially when you consider that the TAG  tightened the stakes half way through.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (14 January 2022)

Australia reached its 1 millionth case of Covid on January 10th.
Today, January 14th, we have hit 1.5 million cases.
At this rate it will take a little over a week to get the next million.
Mick


----------



## basilio (14 January 2022)

rederob said:


> *This *links to the latest UK data and *totally contradicts *your link, which only shows infectiousness rather than severity:
> View attachment 135724
> 
> 
> ...




That is a critical piece of work Redrob and perhaps Barney might reflect on its totality.

Barney offered a story which only quoted the omicron infections as evidence to undermine the importance of vaccination to protect people from from severe consequences of COVID. 

Yes the information was accurate but *deliberately  deceptive. *Omitting the rest of the table which shows the stark difference between  the effects of infection on vaxxed vs unvaxxed people undermines their case. 

Vaccines are not perfect.  Against omicron they are not even that brilliant at preventing infection. However they are doing a job at minimising the effects of COVID.* At this stage that is the best we have.

*


----------



## basilio (14 January 2022)

Meanwhile this is what is happening to doctors and scientists attempting to encourage people to protect themselves and their family

Gold Coast nurse calls out COVID Twitter trolls over abuse after 6yo daughter's vaccination​ABC Gold Coast
 / By Alexandria Utting
Posted 3h ago3 hours ago, updated 1h ago1 hours ago





 Registered nurse and assistant professor at Bond University Jessica Stokes-Parish.(Supplied)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article

A Gold Coast medical educator who was trolled online after sharing a photo of her daughter being vaccinated has called on big tech companies to do more to stop those with "radicalised" views from sharing misinformation.
Key points:​
A Gold Coast mother and academic is trolled for posting a Tweet about her daughter's vaccination
Assistant professor and registered nurse Jessica Stokes-Parish says scientists regularly face online abuse
Dr Stokes-Parish wants tech companies to do more about users with radicalised views

Registered nurse and Bond University assistant professor Jessica Stokes-Parish earlier this week posted to Twitter a picture of her six-year-old daughter after she had received her COVID-19 vaccination, saying: "Long queues but we did it! #VaccinesWork".
But later that day, the tweet went viral with online harassment and bullying in which people attacked her for allowing her daughter to get the jab.
"It was a very innocuous little tweet," Dr Stokes-Parish said.
"My daughter was really excited to show off her band-aid and photo.
"My colleagues saw it and were like, 'So great'."




 The Tweet that saw Jessica Stokes-Parish trolled online. (Supplied)
But that night, some Twitter users began labelling Dr Stokes-Parish a "terrible mother" and left other vile comments.
"They were saying that I should be ashamed to be a mother, that this poor child should be taken into child custody away from me because I was inept and disgusting," she said.
"That I was treating her like cattle to be put into a trial, that the child was unfortunate to have me as their mother."
She said some commenters were bots but others were real people.









						'Quite overwhelming': Academic calls out COVID trolls for abuse after her 6yo gets vaccine
					

A Gold Coast registered nurse and academic urges tech companies to do more after she received "hundreds" of abusive comments on a tweet about her daughter getting the jab.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## DB008 (14 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Australia reached its 1 millionth case of Covid on January 10th.
> Today, January 14th, we have hit 1.5 million cases.
> At this rate it will take a little over a week to get the next million.
> Mick




At my workplace, multiple people have confirmed RAT test results. It's only a matter of time before we all catch Omicron. It does seem to be very hit and miss though. Some families have had Omicron, but 1 person didn't catch it. Weird. 

The Doherty Institute did some modeling back in mid December saying that Australia would reach 200k cases per day, and was widely ridiculed by the mainstream media. No look who has egg on their faces... 


Mark McGowan seems to think otherwise - he's in denial. Putting his finger in a crumbing Hoover dam wall thinking he can hold it up. LOL. Idiot. Orange star must be displayed or else, will be the next step for him.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-13/wa-expands-proof-of-vaccination-requirements/100754194

.​


----------



## Humid (14 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> At my workplace, multiple people have confirmed RAT test results. It's only a matter of time before we all catch Omicron. It does seem to be very hit and miss though. Some families have had Omicron, but 1 person didn't catch it. Weird.
> 
> The Doherty Institute did some modeling back in mid December saying that Australia would reach 200k cases per day, and was widely ridiculed by the mainstream media. No look who has egg on their faces...
> 
> ...



The positive is I wont run into WayneL the anti vaxxer when I'm out


----------



## moXJO (14 January 2022)

basilio said:


> That is a critical piece of work Redrob and perhaps Barney might reflect on its totality.
> 
> Barney offered a story which only quoted the omicron infections as evidence to undermine the importance of vaccination to protect people from from severe consequences of COVID.
> 
> ...



Is this for delta or omicron?
 Because we are currently told 2 shots no longer covers omicron so you are basically unvaccinated.  It's important to differentiate between the two.

Rob did say "boosted" so that would be correct in protecting against the current strain. But that is ridiculously time limited.

Is UK still classing any death within 28 days of anyone that had covid in official figures?


----------



## moXJO (14 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> had Omicron, but 1 person didn't catch it. Weird.



I know a few people like this. Also a few that were asymptomatic but were unable to taste certain food. 
One can now eat world's hottest chillies. They  still can taste normal food( didn't lose their sense of taste). Another loved adding salt but can no longer stand the taste of it.


----------



## IFocus (14 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> I know a few people like this. Also a few that were asymptomatic but were unable to taste certain food.
> One can now eat world's hottest chillies. They  still can taste normal food( didn't lose their sense of taste). Another loved adding salt but can no longer stand the taste of it.





There was a line of thought at one stage  that losing taste / smell may have been as a result of brain damage caused by COVID anyone heard any more?


----------



## Sean K (14 January 2022)

Is it possible that he's slept walked into the media conference?


----------



## wayneL (14 January 2022)

Sean K said:


> Is it possible that he's slept walked into the media conference?




It's quite hilarious, but also quite sad and quite alarming.

... And perhaps evidence that the American president doesn't actually run the show?


----------



## Sean K (14 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> It's quite hilarious, but also quite sad and quite alarming.
> 
> ... And perhaps evidence that the American president doesn't actually run the show?




There is absolutely no way that he is full compos. What's scarier is the Cackling Kamala is next, and then - give-me-another-vodka-Pelosi. It's an absolute shite show. Makes our clowns look like super heroes.


----------



## moXJO (14 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> There was a line of thought at one stage  that losing taste / smell may have been as a result of brain damage caused by COVID anyone heard any more?



So it's all pretty speculative as to how it happens. But there was a study that showed decrease in brain volume and another with abnormalities in the brain.

From what I understood at the time, the inflammatory cytokines caused from covid was causing microglia to attack neurons. So the neurons that were oxygen starved (because of covid attacking lungs) , were snotted by the microglia and causing oxygen starvation in parts of the brain (I think that's the theory).

So covid doesn't actually infect your brain it's more the results from what covid causes throughout your body.

The taste loss one was (I think) to do with the supporting cells in the upper nasal and not the smell neurons.


So the brain fog and memory was due to brain damage and the nose thing from supporting cells. I THINK. Don't take that as gospel but I  think that's the dumb man's version. I'm not sure either study was peer reviewed or if anything new came along. I read that a couple of months back.


----------



## barney (14 January 2022)

rederob said:


> *This *links to the latest UK data and *totally contradicts *your link, which only shows infectiousness rather than severity:
> 
> So yet again the real world is very different to your poorly based beliefs.




For Red:   

My link was a "web capture" and was apparently a snippet of the same link you have posted, so not so much contradictory, rather not presenting the complete page.

I have read the "Surveillance Report" in previous weeks and it is well presented and interesting.  

I find the *"Unadjusted Rates per 100,000"* is not as easy to read as the "straight out numbers"   


For everyone:

Here is another chart below with plain "numbers" so someone can perhaps help me work out how the "unadjusted numbers are calculated with respect to these.

The only premise i am working under is that the *United Kingdom vaccine rate at the time were 70%* 

The Report actually suggests they were up to several percentage points less ... *around 65% *but I'll shout them a few points.




So we have *70% *of the population *vaxxed* and *30%* of the population *un-vaxxed*

If in fact the vaccinated population is being saved from death at rates suggested by the main stream media,

We should be able to see that Total Deaths of the *vaccinated* (70% of the population) *should be far less than 70% of Total deaths?* (logical)

And the 30% of unvaccinated population should in fact represent far *more than 30% of Total deaths*  (logical)

So what do the numbers in the chart below tell us:  




Lets just look at the *60-69 year age group* (happens to be mine)

*Total deaths = 561*

70% = 392.7  (Chart/vaxxed = 360 or 381 with dose 1 included)     30%  = 168.3     (Chart/unvaxxed = 172)

Almost exact percentage distribution of deaths.  ie. No statistical advantage either way



What about the *70-79 age group*  ...........   

*Total Deaths = 849*

70% = 594.3   (Chart/vaxxed = 617  or 652 with dose 1 added)      30% = 254.7  (Chart/unvaxxed = 184) 

The vaccinated faired  worse than "break-even" 


What about the over *80 year olds:*


*Total Deaths = 1760 * 


70% =    1232     (Chart/vaxxed = 1406)       30% = 528   (Chart/unvaxxed = 298) 


And therein lies the rub as the Bard would suggest.   The older you get the more likely that Covid will unfortunately terminate your life, and on the figures presented for the weeks 49-52 it suggests that the vaccines are of no obvious advantage once above the age of 60

There appears to be a statistical advantage for under 60 years old, but the death rates etc are relatively so small that any advantage is negligible. 


Make of it what ye will.


----------



## barney (14 January 2022)

And with the above *"real data"* in mind, it is no wonder people are starting to get tired of bogus claims such as the following with no real data to back up their propaganda. 

For those who like reading fiction here is the link:    Its actually so incorrect it sounds almost desperate!
Fiction Reporting


----------



## barney (14 January 2022)

basilio said:


> That is a critical piece of work Redrob and perhaps Barney might reflect on its totality.




Appreciate the previous polite reply Bas.  

My above post (2 up) presents the question on how the "unadjusted data" Red showed incorporates the data/chart I presented


Before anyone suggests i just pulled the data from wherever i felt like,

It comes form the same Report that Red quoted and is part of the exact dataset that his Chart represented.


I am very curious how my data fits into the final unadjusted chart because I certainly can't make it fit.


----------



## barney (14 January 2022)

And just so I don't get accused of cherry picking data, here is the rest which was used in the "unadjusted" conclusion.    


Deaths post covid admission  28days      You will find the 70%/30%   Vaxxed/unvaxxed ratio to calculate is similar to the 60 day death ratios



Plus the "Presenting to ER within 28 days of infection



Plus *CASE NUMBERS* Anyone who can make those "vaccinated" numbers look good is a far better mathematician than I am


----------



## barney (14 January 2022)

And finally,  From the actual Report itself:   (Percentage of population vaccinated)


----------



## rederob (14 January 2022)

barney said:


> Appreciate the previous polite reply Bas.
> 
> My above post (2 up) presents the question on how the "unadjusted data" Red showed incorporates the data/chart I presented
> 
> ...



You don't seem to understand how to use data to come to valid conclusions as demonstrated by your comment on unadjusted data.
I suggest you use correct ratios related to vaccinated individuals in age groups, as you continue to make gross errors in interpretation.


----------



## The Triangle (15 January 2022)

This guy is quite interesting (not short videos).  He's actually someone technical.  Not someone pretending to be technical.   Don't recall if anyone has posed these links before.  Small part about Australia and WA near the start.


----------



## Belli (15 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> his guy is quite interesting (not short videos). He's actually someone technical. Not someone pretending to be technical. Don't recall if anyone has posed these links before. Small part about Australia and WA near the start.




Yes, Dr John Campbell PhD (Nurse Education) and has a degree in biology.  From the stance of him being an educator he is good to listen to although he can be a bit full on.  He has a tendency to stray into virology and other matters which are outside of his field.  As he can present information with an appearance of gravitas a number of people view his comments as a given. 

 That is not necessarily the case.





__





						Dr John Campbell, the BBC, and Ivermectin
					

Dr John Campbell is a retired nurse who has built up a considerable Youtube following with his almost daily videos on the evolving coron...




					allangmiller.blogspot.com
				




Haven't watched his video's for some time mainly as others in their respective research fields have a wider access and more accurate to information.


----------



## sptrawler (15 January 2022)

Two people in their 20s die with Covid as 'final surge begins'
					

The two people in their 20s who died in NSW and Queensland were both vaccinated. Read about the latest updates here.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:
The man died at Albury Base Hospital and had received two doses of the Covid vaccine and had "serious underlying health conditions", NSW Health said.

Of those who died, three people were aged in their 50s, one person was aged in their 60s, four people were in their 70s, nine people were in their 80s and two people were in their 90s.

Sixteen people were vaccinated and four people were not vaccinated.
A person in their 20s is among six patients who have died with Covid in Queensland.

Health Minister Yvette D'Ath made the announcement alongside 19,709 new daily cases on Saturday.

Chief Health Officer John Gerrard added one person who died was in their 70s, two in their 80s and two in their 90s.

"All of these people had received the vaccine," he said.

"It is a reminder even the vaccinated can get severe disease, particularly if you have underlying medical issues.

"All of these individuals had significant underlying medical problems."


----------



## barney (15 January 2022)

rederob said:


> You don't seem to understand how to use data to come to valid conclusions as demonstrated by your comment on unadjusted data.
> I suggest you use correct ratios related to vaccinated individuals in age groups, as you continue to make gross errors in interpretation.



I accept that criticism because I am unfamiliar how to calculate unadjusted data.  (I did intimate that in the post to be fair)

I realised after the posts that doing a broad 70% / 30%  split across all data was not accurate across the age groups. (too late to change)

With that in mind it is important to state that some of the *conclusions *I came to in my previous posts, although well intentioned, and while drawing from "real/factual" data, will likely be *inaccurate.*

Apologies to all for that; definitely not my intention.  

Will try and have a look at the data again with appropriate percentages to age group, so transparency is maintained.


----------



## mullokintyre (15 January 2022)

meanwhile, here in Victoria, according to  The Australian


> Around 100,000 Victorians waiting for test results for more than a week have been told their samples are no longer valid due to a backlog.
> 
> Channel Ten reported on Friday the text messages were sent by clinics Melbourne Pathology, Australian Clinical Labs and Dorevitch Pathology to Victorians awaiting their results.
> 
> "Your Covid-19 PCR sample is no longer suitable to be tested and no result can be provided," the text message read.



My Son and  his partner were two of those.
They had spent the last  weekend with a group of friends , one of whom ended up having  symptoms and had a positve RAT test, so got  a PCR test which came back back positive.
So, son and his partner both had PCR tests as last Monday RAT tests could not be found.
neither has had  PCR results back yet.
Son feels ordinary , but his partner feels fine.
I suspect he has the rona, partner may have also, but would be symptomatic as she feels just dandy.
Just a matter of time before I get as well I presume.
So many people I know have been close contacts or had it themselves.
Mick


----------



## rederob (15 January 2022)

barney said:


> I accept that criticism because I am unfamiliar how to calculate unadjusted data.  (I did intimate that in the post to be fair)



You don't calculate unadjusted data!
The data is of the same quality as it's per 100k for each of the columns.
If you read the disclaimer at the bottom of the chat it makes clear that as most people are vaccinated, most *cases* will be from that group.


barney said:


> I realised after the posts that doing a broad 70% / 30%  split across all data was not accurate across the age groups. (too late to change)
> With that in mind it is important to state that some of the *conclusions *I came to in my previous posts, although well intentioned, and while drawing from "real/factual" data, will likely be *inaccurate.*



*For a start over 83% of UK adults are double vaxxed.  
For the over 70-79 year age group over 95% are double vaxxed, so the rough equivalence (based on 20:1 ratio) in deaths of unvaxxed to vaxxed is 7000 to 975. * (I didn't use the over 80 group because a large number of these people die *with *covid rather than *from *covid.)


----------



## DB008 (15 January 2022)

​Study: Omicron associated with 91% reduction in risk of death compared to Delta​
Omicron infections are associated with a 91% reduction in risk of death compared to the Delta variant, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Wednesday, citing a new Kaiser Permanente Southern California study.​
*The big picture: *The study also showed that Omicron infections were also associated with a 74% reduction in risk of going to the ICU, as well as a 53% reduction in risk of being hospitalized, Rochelle Walensky said.​
*Details: *The study, which is yet to be peer reviewed, looked at 52,297 Omicron cases and 16,982 Delta cases. Those involved tested positive in Southern California between Nov. 30, 2021 and Jan. 1, 2022.​
It was also done with CDC collaboration and funding, Walensky said.
No patients with Omicron in the study required mechanical ventilation.
Additionally, those with Omicron had a shorter duration in hospital stay when compared to Delta patients: "The duration of hospital stays was approximately 70% shorter, with the median of stays being 1.5 days for Omicron, compared to about five days for Delta," Walensky said.
"Looking at all hospital admissions for Omicron, 90% of patients were expected to be discharged from the hospital in three days or less," she added.
*Yes, but: *"While we are seeing early evidence that Omicron is less severe than Delta, and that those infected are less likely to require hospitalization, it's important to note that Omicron continues to be much more transmissible than Delta," Walensky said.​

https://www.axios.com/cdc-omicron-d...vid-959f1e3a-b09c-4d31-820c-90071f8e7a4f.html​



*Kaiser Permanente Southern California study*



			https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.11.22269045v1.full.pdf
		



.​


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2022)

It looks as though the NSW Gov may have been right about the sharp peak and fall off, hopefully the trend remains.








						Sharp drop in NSW Covid cases as officials 'hope' outbreak has peaked
					

Another 20 Covid-related deaths were also reported in NSW, with officials hoping the outbreak has peaked. But Western Australia 'is another story'. Read more.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



From the article:

NSW has recorded a sharp drop in Covid cases and another 20 deaths as Australia's top health officials "hope" the latest outbreak has reached its peak in several states and territories. 
In the 24-hour reporting period, the state had 34,660 new infections, with 13,682 from rapid antigen tests (RAT) and 20,978 from polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests in numbers released on Sunday.
Hospitalisations saw a slight jump to 2650 but cases in the ICU dropped off to 191.

Of the 13,682 positive RAT results, 11,204 of these positive tests were from the previous seven days.

More than 95 per cent of people aged 16 and over had had one dose of the vaccine, while almost 94 per cent have had two.

Chief Health Officer Kerry Chant said on Sunday of the 20 people who died "two were in aged care in their 50s, six people were aged in the 70s, seven people were aged in their 80s, four people were in the 90s and one person was 100 plus".


----------



## Belli (16 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> In the 24-hour reporting period, the state had 34,660 new infections, with 13,682 from rapid antigen tests (RAT) and 20,978 from polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests in numbers released on Sunday.





We can but watch the numbers.  However, it may not include those who didn't report a positive reading from RAT as their symptoms may have been extremely benign so they didn't bother - or they they didn't want to isolate.  We simply don't know but it's looking good so far.


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2022)

Belli said:


> We can but watch the numbers.  However, it may not include those who didn't report a positive reading from RAT as their symptoms may have been extremely benign so they didn't bother - or they they didn't want to isolate.  We simply don't know but it's looking good so far.



It is a whole lot better than the doom and gloom the media have been reporting, it must be depressing living in NSW and reading the media reports and projections.
I certainly hope the W.A media doesn't take such a negative scare campaign when our borders open, my mother and MIL are $hitting bricks already, I just think the media should have a glass half full approach and support the authorities stance.
This constant negative and counter productive reporting must be wearing down those most at risk and vulnerable IMO.


----------



## Belli (16 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is a whole lot better than the doom and gloom the media have been reporting, it must be depressing living in NSW and reading the media reports and projections.
> I certainly hope the W.A media doesn't take such a negative scare campaign when our borders open, my mother and MIL are $hitting bricks already, I just think the media should have a glass half full approach and support the authorities stance.
> This constant negative and counter productive reporting must be wearing down the most vulnerable IMO>




Some encouraging information in this study albeit it's from late December last year.









						Report 50 - Hospitalisation risk for Omicron cases in England
					

Report 50 - Hospitalisation risk for Omicron cases in England




					www.imperial.ac.uk
				




However, as always, there is the usual caveat of don't assume.  One of the aspects I've noticed, and it bemuses me, is news articles, and most people who follow those outlets, are looking for a definitive yes/no answer.  Quite understandable..  Yet if the person providing the information for the article is, for example, an infectious disease specialist, they generally give the qualification "but..." which is overlooked.

However, I gather the bottom line they don't say out-loud but try to subtly imply is we are a species subject to infections and if a virus infects us it can severely debilitate or kill us.  It may not but it can and there are no guarantees which one will apply to a specific individual.

Happy times, eh?


----------



## DB008 (16 January 2022)

Hmm, Trump was right (again). Do you get the feeling that Covid-19 has something more sinister involved than 'bats' and a narrative that using any vaccine other than Pfizfer/Moderna/J&J is conspiracy theory...???

Lab leak for sure. Wuhan involvement confirmed.







Ivermectin works. Doesn't fit the narrative.








Joe Rogan was ridiculed on CNN for taking Ivermectin, which was prescribed to him by a doctor.
Lets not forget how CNN changed his skin colour to make him look sicker than he was.....







And the MSM (Mainstream Media) are scratching their heads as to why their viewing numbers are dropping to never before seen numbers and people are seeking alternative outlets? Because they lie to you 24/7 and have their own agenda.











​



​​
​*NEW - Peer-reviewed, large PSM study from Brazil finds, "regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic agent was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and mortality rates." *​
​​

The study was published in the Cureus Journal of Medical Science today:​






​Of the 113,845 prophylaxed subjects from the city of Itajaí, 4,197 had a positive RT-PCR SARS-CoV-2 (3.7% infection rate), while 3,034 of the 37,027 untreated subjects had positive RT-PCR SARS-CoV-2 (6.6% infection rate), a 44% reduction in COVID-19 infection rate (risk ratio [RR], 0.56; 95% confidence interval (95% CI), 0.53-0.58; p < 0.0001). An addition of 114 subjects who used ivermectin and were infected were originally from other cities but were registered as part of the program, in a total of 4,311 positive cases among ivermectin users. For the present analysis, the 4,311 positive cases among subjects that used ivermectin and 3,034 cases among subjects that did not use ivermectin were considered. After PSM, two cohorts of 3,034 subjects were created.​​Baseline characteristics of the 7,345 subjects included prior to PSM and the baseline characteristics of the 6,068 subjects in the matched groups are shown in Table _1_. Prior to PSM, ivermectin users had a higher percentage of subjects over 50 years old (p < 0.0001), higher prevalence of T2D (p = 0.0004), hypertension (p < 0.0001), and CVD (p = 0.03), and a higher percentage of Caucasians (p = 0.004), than non-users. After PSM, all baseline parameters were similar between groups. Figure _2_ summarizes the main findings of this study.​








https://www.cureus.com/articles/821...3128-subjects-using-propensity-score-matching


.​


----------



## barney (16 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> she feels just dandy.
> Just a matter of time before I get as well I presume.
> So many people I know have been close contacts or had it themselves.  Mick




Hopefully if you do get it Mick, it will be mild and bearable as most seem to be (touch wood)

(Dare I mention Quercetin/Zinc/ Vitamin D3/C just in case)   Not to underplay nebulizing with a bit of "Iodine" etc!



It does seem odd how some people are "taken out" by the Virus but others are "untouched" 

Doing studies on why that happens, seems an important "question"  (I believe there may be some studies on that track??)


One of my mates who caught the big -C  a week and a bit ago is now doing ok after a few days of **** as he described it 

He lives in a small house in "very close" proximity to his wife/family  .... Only he caught it (so far)

Some people obviously seem to have a "better" immunity to initial contraction of the disease

The science behind that (ie blood tests, and whatever else scientists do to work stuff out)  seems a good place to initiate study??

ps All Family fully vaxxed for the record.


----------



## barney (16 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Lab leak for sure. Wuhan involvement confirmed.
> Ivermectin works. Doesn't fit the narrative=




Great post /content @DB008     you may need to prepare for some confrontation however  


I wonder, if documentation which has been hidden and is then consequently presented, puts the *"hiders"* of said information ....

1)  Under *suspicion * 

2)  Or even worse, *"implicates*" them in something inappropriate/nefarious 


It would seem *prudent*/sensible/advisable/sagacious  

To follow said paper trail and work out *"why"* they deemed it necessary to *hide the information* in the first place! 

Is this not logical?  Or should we all bow down to *"Team Tony"* (Fauci for those unfamiliar)

History has already decreed,  "He's not the messiah, he's just a very naughty boy!"


----------



## rederob (16 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Lab leak for sure. Wuhan involvement confirmed.



Zero evidence, for the umteenth time.


DB008 said:


> Ivermectin works. Doesn't fit the narrative.



It's not proven to be effective, unlike many other drugs.



DB008 said:


> *NEW - Peer-reviewed, large PSM study from Brazil finds, "regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic agent was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and mortality rates."   *
> https://www.cureus.com/articles/821...3128-subjects-using-propensity-score-matching​



*Here's the lead author:*




*A dentist!

And here are the co-authors:



*


----------



## Humid (16 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Zero evidence, for the umteenth time.
> 
> It's not proven to be effective, unlike many other drugs.
> 
> ...



no vets.....dissapointing


----------



## Humid (16 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Hmm, Trump was right (again). Do you get the feeling that Covid-19 has something more sinister involved than 'bats' and a narrative that using any vaccine other than Pfizfer/Moderna/J&J is conspiracy theory...???
> 
> Lab leak for sure. Wuhan involvement confirmed.
> 
> ...


----------



## DB008 (17 January 2022)

Chance of hospitalization/death for a 18 year old with covid? Probably 0.001%

Go to uni at Johns Hopkins and you need to be boosted, tested twice a week and wear a N95 mask at all times.

Complete joke






.


----------



## Humid (17 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Chance of hospitalization/death for a 18 year old with covid? Probably 0.001%
> 
> Go to uni at Johns Hopkins and you need to be boosted, tested twice a week and wear a N95 mask at all times.
> 
> ...



Are the staff 18?


----------



## The Triangle (17 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Chance of hospitalization/death for a 18 year old with covid? Probably 0.001%
> 
> Go to uni at Johns Hopkins and you need to be boosted, tested twice a week and wear a N95 mask at all times.
> 
> ...



Plenty of Jobs and universities in Florida.  

That's the beauty of the US.  At least there are all the different states with different rules.  Can always find one that suits your fancy.  The only option in Australia to escape the tyranny is to actually leave the country, which you cannot do unless you hold multiple citizenships.



			http://ww11.doh.state.fl.us/comm/_partners/covid19_report_archive/covid19-data/covid19_data_latest.pdf
		


111 deaths to 430,000 infections vs our 250+ deaths to around 700,000 infections.    Seems Florida with their 70% vaccination rates, limited restrictions and fat obese Americans are doing better!  Guess covid already killed off their vulnerable?  









						Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## DB008 (17 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Are the staff 18?




Where do you draw the line?

Omicron is 75% less severe than Delta
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-17/omicron-a-reminder-the-pandemic-is-far-from-over/13707674

Keep living like a hermit for the rest of your life?

.


----------



## Belli (17 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Chance of hospitalization/death for a 18 year old with covid? Probably 0.001%




Ah, but...

"*Regardless of a person’s age*, some airway and lung diseases can set the stage for a more severe coronavirus infection because of scarring, inflammation or lung damage."









						Who Is at High Risk for Severe Coronavirus Disease?
					






					www.hopkinsmedicine.org
				




And this is also interesting









						newsGP - Is Omicron a greater threat to children than previous COVID variants?
					

The new strain has widely been touted as the ‘milder COVID’, but more children are ending up in hospital than ever before.




					www1.racgp.org.au
				




"What we do know is that early surveillance data from South Africa, where Omicron was first identified, showed children and teens under the age of 20 represented 17% of all hospital admissions during the Omicron wave. Furthermore, 10% of all admissions were in children younger than five years and we know this represents an unvaccinated population."

An neither of the articles are from frequently watched news media - which do not generally go into deeper details due to space, time constraints and the desire for the public for a quick and easy read.


----------



## rederob (17 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> 111 deaths to 430,000 infections vs our 250+ deaths to around 700,000 infections.    Seems Florida with their 70% vaccination rates, limited restrictions and fat obese Americans are doing better!  Guess covid already killed off their vulnerable?



So the previous 63K deaths in Florida can be discounted because they are only now doing so well?
The majority of Australia's deaths to date have had serious comorbidities or are from the frail aged, and may just as easily have succumbed to a serious flu given no deaths were reported in 2021.


----------



## The Triangle (17 January 2022)

rederob said:


> So the previous 63K deaths in Florida can be discounted because they are only now doing so well?



Correct.


----------



## Humid (17 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Where do you draw the line?
> 
> Omicron is 75% less severe than Delta
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-17/omicron-a-reminder-the-pandemic-is-far-from-over/13707674
> ...



Probably by waking up in the morning and not being offended by whats happening in a University half way round the world would be a start


----------



## The Triangle (17 January 2022)

Our billionaires DOUBLE wealth during COVID
					

Australia's 47 billionaires have doubled their wealth to $255 billion during the first two years of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to analysis by Oxfam.




					www.perthnow.com.au
				




Friendly reminder....  Can't say I haven't also benefited.... 

_“This is the biggest annual increase in billionaire wealth since records began. It is taking place on every continent,” the Inequality Kills report reads.

Their soaring wealth has been attributed to skyrocketing stock market prices, a boom in unregulated entities, rising monopoly power and privatisation, on top of the erosion of individual corporate tax rates and regulations as well as workers’ rights and wages.

Oxfam Australia chief executive Lyn Morgain said billionaires have enjoyed a “terrific pandemic”.

“Central banks have pumped trillions of dollars into financial markets to save the economy, yet much of that has ended up lining the pockets of billionaires riding a stock market boom,” she said._


----------



## mullokintyre (17 January 2022)

Now that Djokovic has lost his (LAW) court battle with the feds, there is an interesting discussion about what will happen with his sponsorships.
Given that so many of the same people who want to crucify antivaxers have called for boycotts , cancellations etc of those who are unvaxed, will they turn on Djokovic for his unvaxed status?
Given that the French President said he was going to piss off the non vaxed, will he now demand that both Lacoste and Puegeot, both major sponsors of Djokovic, dump him from their stable?
Be interesting to see just how much hypocrisy  comes to the fore.
Mick


----------



## barney (17 January 2022)

rederob said:


> *Here's the lead author:
> 
> A dentist!*




Yeah Dentists are notoriously dumb sh!ts with nothing constructive to add and zero credibility.

If the Author had been a Veterinarian on the other hand, we could religiously believe everything they tell us, yes?  



Don't normally "play the man" but it seems a popular game around here so what the heck:

Albert Bourla :  (Given he's a horse doctor, I'm surprised he's not keener on Ivermectin, lol)


----------



## barney (17 January 2022)

My Sister is a front line Health Worker currently helping look after a few dozen unfortunate covid punters.

She is one of the thousands of workers who has to be jabbed or be jobless

Now due for her booster and will have to comply because she has bills to pay. 

She's been constantly tired/lethargic since her second jab a while back

And a little concerned about how many more times she will have to get the needle to keep her job.


And amongst all the unfairness where we see this happening:







Fortunately Australia would never be so dumb as to follow the overseas stupidity of allowing covid positive people back to work rather than perfectly healthy unvaccinated workers 

Thank God we are have some semblance of intellect left by our "leaders" in Aus! 

Oops!                (A World gone mad I'd suggest)









Brief/succinct summation on Mandates by Orthopedic Surgeon Ahmad Malik from the UK





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## Humid (17 January 2022)

barney said:


> Yeah Dentists are notoriously dumb sh!ts with nothing constructive to add and zero credibility.
> 
> If the Author had been a Veterinarian on the other hand, we could religiously believe everything they tell us, yes?
> 
> ...



Next time you have car trouble pop in and see your local panel beater....


----------



## barney (17 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Next time you have car trouble pop in and see your local panel beater....



Interestingly, one of the best mechanic's I know IS also a panel beater, lol


----------



## DB008 (18 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Probably by waking up in the morning and not being offended by whats happening in a University half way round the world would be a start




Who said l was offended?

The stupidity that happens in the USA eventually spreads to Australia.

Common sense has gone out the window. Can't you see that? Everyone is getting Omicron or Delta, EVERYONE. Regards of your feelings. The replication/infection rate of Omircon is 7 (or l think 10) to 1, it's super infectious. Your getting it. Doing RAT/PCR tests are a waste of time, effort and money for everyone involved. Why do them?


WA is just delaying the inevitable too.
McGowan is in denial.
Probably the big miners pressuring him to do something because it's all theatre and he can obviously see what is going on in the rest of Australia. The CDC said that those cloth masks are useless, only use N/K 95 Masks. Ok, where do we get 20 million masks from? Maybe twice a week (or 3 times depending on how active you are), so we need 40 - 60 million masks per week, every week, forever? Its stupid.








QR Code check in should be abolished ASAP. Honestly, does anyone check in anymore? Whats the point of checking in to a local bakery when the definition of a close contact is now 4 hours? I could work with someone for 3 hour 59 minutes, have smoko, then do another 3 hours 59 minutes and not be considered a close contact. It's laughable.
Quarantine for international arrivals should be abolished ASAP. How does it make sense for someone flying into Australia has to do 2 weeks quarantine (positive or not), but if you get Omicron locally, you just have to quarantine for ~7 days. Makes no sense. Maybe propping up the hotel industry...
RAT Test - for what purpose? Everyone is getting it. Just accept it. If you feel unwell, have a few days off, if not, keep going to work. My local Coles/Woolies selection of fresh food looks like we are living in Cuba.
Data coming out now is showing that continuous boosters have the potential to harm the immune system. Let natural immunity rip through the community.


Here is another stupid article from the ABC that doesn't take into account small/medium size business owners who need to work or else they don't get paid and go bankrupt. Everyone has bills to pay. No work, no money, go bust. Plenty of time to get your shots if you so desire, if not, thats your risk profile, I don't care. Up to you.

You can't make this stuff up, how blind people are who don't live in a world where they need to work to make ends meet.


'COVID chasers' trying to catch Omicron on purpose​are 'playing Russian roulette', experts say​
Dave is desperate to catch COVID-19 and has been maximising his chances of getting infected after returning from a family Christmas.​​"I've been going to parties, clubs and still attending the gym," he says.​​The 39-year-old from Sydney is a "COVID chaser" — someone indulging in the controversial practice of trying to catch the virus on their own terms, perhaps at a "COVID party", so they can time their isolation around their lives and hopefully avoid inconvenience.​​"As a self-employed business owner I have limited holiday time and need to be available to service my clients and earn a living," he says.​​"Given this, timing a COVID infection early in the new year made sense: most of my clients were also away, meaning I could get this out the way and be available for work once I'd recovered."​​Unsurprisingly, epidemiologists and experts are strongly warning against the practice.​​Stuart Turville, an associate professor of immunovirology at the Kirby Institute, equates trying to catch COVID to "driving around Australia, learning how to swim in watering holes that may or may not have crocodiles".​​"If we've learned anything about the virus, it's that it turns on a dime."​​It's unclear how widespread the practice is or how many people have contracted the virus this way.​​But Dave isn't alone — Marie* has a similar plan, along with several others who we spoke with for this story. None wanted to use their real names, for fear of being identified as COVID rule breakers or the possibility of fines.​​Dave and Marie are both vaccinated but consider themselves to be realists about their likelihood of contracting the virus.​​Marie is a wedding planner from Brisbane and recently discovered her daughter, who is isolating in another suburb, has COVID-19. The 49-year-old is thinking of paying her a strategic visit pretty soon.​​"I want it over and done with before my next wedding booking starts in February," she says.​​"We're all getting it sooner or later, so if I can manage it, I'd like it to be on my terms.​​"Call me crazy, but I like to be organised: my business has suffered enough with cancellations. I don't want to finally have bookings starting again and then having to cancel due to COVID."​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-16/covid-trying-to-catch-omicron-on-purpose-dangerous/100746124​I'm in a similar mindset as Dave (above). I would have preferred to get Omicron over the Xmas break so l can continue to work and not lose wages. Some of my work colleague have had Omicron, feel like crap for 1 or 2 days, thats it. 1 didn't even know he had it, he had to do a PCR test for family reasons, turns out he had Covid.​
Dan Andrews, Anastasia Palletjack, Mark Mcgowan, Steven Marshall and Michael Gunner have no idea because they get a salary regardless of lockdowns or quarantine situations going on. So out of touch with society and small business owners. Same with Stuart Turville at the Kirby Institute. Work from home. Shut down businesses. I don't care, l still get paid. Maybe the politicians should forfeit their pay to a non profit charity that someone else decides on everytime there is a lockdown.

We (Australia) should have done more research into drugs like Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine and also pumped more into the unis research (like Monash and UQ QLD, or utilised the Military, like the US Army is doing - link) - not believing what the USA touted as not working due to their horrid political fabric of left v right that is going on over there right now. Same with monoclonal antibody treatment - feel sick or the onset of Covid, come in and get this treatment for free. Instead, what did we do in QLD? Build 2 quarantine camps in Pinkenba and Toowoomba. We are ruled by idiots. Not only that, Palletjack has had 2 years to get ready for this, and she is still flying by the seat of her pants....


.


----------



## rederob (18 January 2022)

barney said:


> Yeah Dentists are notoriously dumb sh!ts with nothing constructive to add and zero credibility.



Dentists are not engaged in clinical medicine so her involvement in a study on a drug she does not use is unusual.
The real point was that your referenced study was withdrawn or not accepted for publication by most medical journals until it finally surfaced *open sourced* via a crowd funded platform after a year in limbo.
If you think governments internationally are somehow wanting to suppress a cheaper drug treatment because they would rather pay many times more you have rocks in your head.  Health bills for covid are astronomical, hospital systems have been brought to near collapse, and hundreds of studies continue to take place to examine which if any present drugs can be repurposed as effective treatments.  So far Ivermectin has nothing conclusive to warrant its use despite the efforts of Peter Kory (co-author of the study) who has a habit of making exaggerated claims.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 January 2022)

The commedians have started ....


----------



## Humid (18 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Who said l was offended?
> 
> The stupidity that happens in the USA eventually spreads to Australia.
> 
> ...



The part I dont understand is that you figured all that out but not the bit about politicians only agenda is being re-elected.


----------



## DB008 (18 January 2022)

Humid said:


> The part I dont understand is that you figured all that out but not the bit about politicians only agenda is being re-elected.




Pollies only look after themselves, I thought l mentioned common sense? Everyone knows that. Self interest.


----------



## DB008 (18 January 2022)

.​


----------



## DB008 (18 January 2022)

.​


----------



## mullokintyre (18 January 2022)

Seems the Hazard known as the NSW health minister has had a bit of a prank pulled on him.
From ABC News


> The NSW Health Minister says he has been the victim of a fraudulent COVID test report and says those responsible for the "moronic" act will be punished.
> Brad Hazzard said yesterday he received a notification from NSW Health that someone had registered a positive rapid antigen test (RAT) under his name.
> The system for self-reporting RATs went live last week and — through the Service NSW app or website — people must register their positive result with details including their mobile number.
> Mr Hazzard said whoever had made a fake report with his details was "juvenile" and "extremely irresponsible".
> ...



Two interesting things from this that says a lot about politicians.
1. He had heard  about other fake reports being submitted, but never thought to condemn them publicly until he was the victim.
2. If you fail to report a positive RAT, there is a $1,000 fine, but if you submit a fake one, the fine  is $5,000. Which one of these two outcomes will contribute more to the spread of the diseas??
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (18 January 2022)

Looks as though Europe is leading the way, fining people who don't get vaccinated.









						Europe Kicks Off Some Of The World’s Most Sweeping Vaccine Mandates And Fines
					

Italy has made vaccination compulsory for over 50s and Austria will require vaccination against Covid-19 for all adults starting from February.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Humid (18 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Pollies only look after themselves, I thought l mentioned common sense? Everyone knows that. Self interest.



Well if you join the dots you might understand where we are at and why,whether right or wrong!


----------



## basilio (18 January 2022)

The pressure on our hospital situations with the current spread of Omicron is already immense.  Victoria has called a Code Brown to enable re organisation of hospitals to deal with the pressure of  thousands of very sick COVID patients.

Victoria to issue emergency Code Brown alert for its health services due to Omicron wave​Posted 4h ago4 hours ago, updated 20m ago20 minutes ago
Space to play or pause, M to mute, left and right arrows to seek, up and down arrows for volume.





An emergency response plan will come into effect for Victorian hospitals from Wednesday as the sector buckles under Omicron.
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article



The Victorian government will issue a statewide Code Brown for its health service, which may postpone leave for thousands of staff and defer non-essential services.
Key points:​
Code Brown will allow hospitals to make staffing and resource changes to prioritise critical patients
There are currently 1,152 COVID-19 hospitalisations
Teachers and emergency services, prisons, freight and transport worker will be exempt from close contact isolation rules from tonight

It is the first time that the emergency setting has been activated in multiple hospitals across the state.
A Code Brown is usually reserved for external emergencies such as natural disasters and mass casualty events.

It formalises and streamlines the health system's emergency management in response to the growing number of people in hospitals.
The Code Brown will come into force at midday on Wednesday for all metropolitan hospitals and six regional hospitals, with each site to put in place different strategies to respond to the activation.

Acting Minister for Health James Merlino said the healthcare system was buckling under the Omicron wave, and it was "the right time" to issue the Code Brown to anticipate a peak in hospitalisations which could see more than 2,500 COVID patients.









						Health sector facing ‘challenges not seen in a century’ as Victoria issues rare Code Brown
					

Code Brown will be activated at midday tomorrow for all metropolitan hospitals and six regional hospitals, allowing them to redeploy staff and ask some workers to postpone leave in order to respond to a surge in patients.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Knobby22 (18 January 2022)

basilio said:


> The pressure on our hospital situations with the current spread of Omicron is already immense.  Victoria has called a Code Brown to enable re organisation of hospitals to deal with the pressure of  thousands of very sick COVID patients.
> 
> Victoria to issue emergency Code Brown alert for its health services due to Omicron wave​Posted 4h ago4 hours ago, updated 20m ago20 minutes ago
> Space to play or pause, M to mute, left and right arrows to seek, up and down arrows for volume.
> ...



Yea  big news. Funny it's called code Brown.


----------



## barney (18 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Dentists are not engaged in clinical medicine so her involvement in a study on a drug she does not use is unusual.
> The real point was that your referenced study was withdrawn or not accepted for publication by most medical journals until it finally surfaced *open sourced*




All good Red.  Just having a dig regarding the Dentist thing as i'm sure you know.  ps I think it was @DB008 who referenced the study etc but I'm happy to stand in the same camp so to speak.

I went and had a listen to a couple of Jennifer A. Hibberd's interviews etc after you mentioned her being a Dentist, so in that respect, a bit of disagreement/confrontation can be a useful catalyst in learning stuff we may otherwise never look at.  

She seems to me to be a genuine lady with good intentions, but of course, i could be gullible and a poor judge of character.

 She is obviously interested in Ivermectin because she has many "associates" who report having had good results with it.  There are lots of them including Argentinian Doctor Hector Carvallo who seems to be suggesting along similar lines. (link to one interview below)

I admit I have only listened to a portion of this interview, but he seems equally genuine (ie. no obvious agenda that I can see ) so after a short listen, I'm happy to suggest it is worthwhile listening.


Dr Carvallo on Covid/Ivermectin


Regarding the clip you showed from Dr Peirre Kory_/_Ivermectin. It was from December 2020 I believe?  

To be fair,  I could post up dozens of Tony Fauci/Rochelle Walensky videos (etc etc etc ), exposing their change of position/faux pars over the past  18 months where they made statements which could now be shown to be pretty "crappy" at best, and where *they have changed their collective tune* to fit what could be conceived a "contrived" narrative (my opinion of course/could be totally wrong)


Pierre Kory, I believe, was speaking in good faith, and has *maintained his pro-ivermectin stance from the start*


It surely raises the question: Why would a well respected Doctor:

Maintain an opinion (while under social and political duress)

Plus maintain an opinion which caused him potential/likely loss of credibility, AND the loss of his financial stability?

To promote something, if he knew it to be ineffective?! 

I would suggest that for that to eventuate, that  Dr Kory is either a lunatic, or he must have an alternative agenda !


So assuming he is not mad, what is his alternative agenda at risking ruining his career?  (That is a genuine question/thought)


Lots of questions yet to be answered before this story gets to a final chapter methinks.  

Cheers.


----------



## wayneL (18 January 2022)

@rederob 

I am involved in a study right at this very moment, the hypothesis regarding equine biomechanics as it relates to specific digital pathologies.

The lead PhD is a microbiologist, we do have a DVM on board, but mainly for a bit of credibility for people like you. The rest of us are non-degreed, but those who have made a lifelong study of the field referenced.

We may also soon have a gross anatomist onboard, also.

None of us have any sort of degree specific to the hypothesis, however real pink cat we have something to add to the field of study.

Is it your contention that we should immediately desist from our study, because we don't have specific degrees?

Science follows a process, ironically termed the scientific process. trying to discredit the authors is extremely unscientific in the extreme. Instead, you should refer to the processes of peer review, falsification and repetition.

Any study could succeed or fail at these steps, regardless of the qualifications of those involved.

Science bro, politically motivated attempts at discreditation is not science.... Bro.


----------



## moXJO (18 January 2022)

4th shot seems to protect by increasing antibodies 5 fold (or something like that) against covid. But not that great against omicron. In fact pretty sht against omicron.

Talks of not giving it to all over 60s now in Israel. Only at risk.
Most likely the current vaccine isn't worth it for the majority of people against omicron.  WHO is also saying we "can't boost our way out of this pandemic".


----------



## mullokintyre (19 January 2022)

The CDC has admitted that the majority of the of the cloth masks that they urged everyone to use, are pretty much useless against the  virus droplets causing COVID.
NY Times


> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Friday clarified its stance on various kinds of masks, acknowledging that the cloth masks frequently worn by Americans do not offer as much protection as surgical masks or respirators.
> While this disparity is widely known to the general public, the update marks the first time the C.D.C. has explicitly addressed the differences. The agency’s website also no longer refers to a shortage of respirators.
> The change comes as infections with the highly contagious Omicron variant continue to soar. Some experts have said that cloth masks are inadequate to protect from the variant, and have urged the C.D.C. to recommend respirators for ordinary citizens.
> The agency did not go that far. Its updated language now says that “a respirator may be considered in certain situations and by certain people when greater protection is needed or desired.”
> ...



It highlights just how much of the  statements put out by the experts are based on considerations other than  'the science'.
Mick


----------



## DB008 (19 January 2022)

.​


----------



## Humid (19 January 2022)

Michael Pascoe: What if Omicron bedlam is not a cockup but intentional?
					

Pretend for a moment you are in charge and decide you will let the virus rip, as you’ve been urging for much of the past year. When would you do it?




					thenewdaily.com.au
				




Surely not....?


----------



## mullokintyre (19 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Michael Pascoe: What if Omicron bedlam is not a cockup but intentional?
> 
> 
> Pretend for a moment you are in charge and decide you will let the virus rip, as you’ve been urging for much of the past year. When would you do it?
> ...



Assuming of course in the planning for such an event they knew that Omicron was coming ....
Mick


----------



## rederob (19 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Any study could succeed or fail at these steps, regardless of the qualifications of those involved.



The Hibberd study got no traction because it failed the peer review process for mainstream medical journals.
Hibberd's associates' website promotes Ivermectin and is not keen on vaccinations, despite no conclusive evidence for the former and incontrovertible evidence for the latter.
This article links to further RCTs for Ivermectin that should yield definitive results.
Here is a proven at home treatment for early covid which is cheap and effective, yet not promoted by the so called World Council for Health.
I am strongly in favour of people doing as much as they think can help them to combat covid, but advocating using a drug without prescription is not a recipe for success.


----------



## rederob (19 January 2022)

barney said:


> So assuming he is not mad, what is his alternative agenda at risking ruining his career? (That is a genuine question/thought)



A large proportion of Americans still believe Trump won the election and that Obama is a Muslim, despite zero evidence to either.
In the inimitable words of  P T Barnum, *"there's a sucker born every minute".*


----------



## mullokintyre (19 January 2022)

There has been a lot of blame shifting  by all on sundry, but i found it interesting that South Australia only allowed the use of rats on  December 23rd.
From ABC News


> Rapid antigen testing has finally been introduced among the South Australian public, as health authorities work to combat an eruption of COVID-19 cases and community transmission of the virus.
> 
> Last night, the state's police commissioner lifted a ban on the tests after SA on Thursday recorded 484 new infections.
> 
> ...




Once again, it stuns me that the various state fiefdoms  have different rules. 
Why do we have them??
And now the SA premier is blaming  the eastern states for a shortage in Sth Australia, suggesting supplies for Sth Australia are being diverted to the Eastern states,
From ABC News


> South Australia's Premier will ask the consumer watchdog to investigate reports that the Victorian and New South Wales governments have requisitioned rapid antigen tests bound for the state.
> 
> SA pharmacies and other businesses have reported making large rapid antigen test (RAT) orders that have subsequently gone missing.
> 
> ...



The fact that other states have made it legal before SA, and thus allowed them to order up big time has no bearing on the shortage.
So much easier to blame someone else.
And of course the independent country of WA only made the RATS legal on January 9th.



> West Australians hoping to buy rapid antigen tests (RATs) from their local pharmacies have been warned they will not be able to, due to a lack of supply.
> Last week, Western Australia's Chief Health Officer, Andy Robertson, told reporters that rapid antigen tests would become legal from today, after the state government removed the ban it earlier imposed on them over accuracy concerns.
> 
> However, the Australian Pharmacy Guild's WA branch president Andrew Ngeow said pharmacies in the state had not secured any stock.
> ...



But no matter what barriers the states have in place, its still all the feds fault.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (19 January 2022)

rederob said:


> The Hibberd study got no traction because it failed the peer review process for mainstream medical journals.
> Hibberd's associates' website promotes Ivermectin and is not keen on vaccinations, despite no conclusive evidence for the former and incontrovertible evidence for the latter.
> This article links to further RCTs for Ivermectin that should yield definitive results.
> Here is a proven at home treatment for early covid which is cheap and effective, yet not promoted by the so called World Council for Health.
> I am strongly in favour of people doing as much as they think can help them to combat covid, but advocating using a drug without prescription is not a recipe for success.



The buteside study is interesting and inhalant antivirals do make sense.

Notwithstanding study(s) on ivermectin which seems destined to be argued till the cows come home, in my (and a whole bunch of scientists that I know) opinion, "peer review" has increasingly become a suspect process.

As I've mentioned a few times on here, I've been a consumer of peer reviewed science on equine exercise physiology, and biomechanics for over 30 years.

Most studies (approx 9/10) are absolute garbage and should never have passed peer review (happy to cite some examples if interested).

Yet I know of another thesis that did not pass peer review that was absolutely sound and particularly useful for those of us in the field, basically because of the formatting of the language.

That is why I put more faith in the further steps of falsification and repetition, rather whether they pass peer review or not.

FWIW


----------



## barney (19 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Here is a proven at home treatment for early covid which is cheap and effective, yet not promoted by the so called World Council for Health.




We've perhaps found some common ground Red.  I've been harping on about Budesonide since way back in 2020

Interestingly, when Dr Richard Bartlett (A known Trump supporter of course), first touted he had received the the idea from God in a dream, about using Budesonide.

The poor Doc suffered a fair bit of backlash from both the "fact checkers/debunkers", and also some of his health colleagues, but his integrity was eventually preserved.

Fortunately there were some other medical folk (some included in the Lancet Report you referenced which was released in September 2021), but more importantly way back in early 2020 when they got straight onto the possibilities of Budesonide as a treatment with a team of high quality researchers  headed by Mary Daval








Of course Dr B. couldn't  wait around for trial results and *probably saved a lot of lives by being proactive *so hats off to him.


----------



## rederob (19 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> That is why I put more faith in the further steps of falsification and repetition, rather whether they pass peer review or not.



The medical science process is somewhat different to testing an hypothesis as *RCTs *are the gold standard for an intervention or treatment.


----------



## barney (19 January 2022)

rederob said:


> A large proportion of Americans still believe Trump won the election and that Obama is a Muslim, despite zero evidence to either.
> In the inimitable words of  P T Barnum, *"there's a sucker born every minute".*



You mean Donald  is no longer President?!  Damn!


----------



## moXJO (19 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Michael Pascoe: What if Omicron bedlam is not a cockup but intentional?
> 
> 
> Pretend for a moment you are in charge and decide you will let the virus rip, as you’ve been urging for much of the past year. When would you do it?
> ...



I said this a few weeks back. Best time is now. Everywhere is struggling to contain omicron. Even China is having a hard time containing it.


----------



## barney (20 January 2022)

My Sister (front line health worker) just diagnosed with the big-C. 

On leave from a couple of days ago. Great way to spend your holiday for her!

Double vaxxed  of course as health workers are expected to be

Still in the early nasty headache phase.  

She is high 60's age group so not ideal.  She is also a tough little nugget so hopefully fare ok

I spent an hour with her 2 days ago before she came down with it.  See how the quercetin/zinc/D3/C goes, lol


----------



## bellenuit (20 January 2022)

Hana Horka: Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally
					

Hana Horka's son tells the BBC his mother was unvaccinated but wanted to acquire immunity.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## moXJO (20 January 2022)

barney said:


> My Sister (front line health worker) just diagnosed with the big-C.
> 
> On leave from a couple of days ago. Great way to spend your holiday for her!
> 
> ...



Hope she goes alright. That headache is a killer. Paracetamol is a massive relief. 

My mum and dad are in their late 70s and they barely  got it. So hopefully you both get a mild case.


----------



## basilio (20 January 2022)

Promising effective cheap treatment to mitigate effects of severe COVID. 









						Inhaling heparin 'could have a major impact in our fight against COVID'
					

Research from the Australian National University and Kings College in London shows the common and widely available blood-thinning drug heparin improves symptoms and limits lung damage when inhaled by COVID-19 patients.




					www.abc.net.au


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## DB008 (20 January 2022)

NOW - UK PM Boris Johnson: "The government will no longer mandate the wearing of face masks anywhere."

Johnson announces end to all Omicron restrictions in England.






Your browser is not able to display this video.







.​


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## basilio (20 January 2022)

Watch Boris Johnston being interviewed by Scotland Yard over Party Gate. (Art imitating Life ??)

Jed Mercurio produces bonus episode of Line of Duty – featuring Boris Johnson​Ted Hastings told the PM that AC-12 are satisfied "you knowingly and intentionally flouted the rules because you believe you're above the law".​





	

		
			
		

		
	
 by Jack Peat
2022-01-18 14:03
in News 






FacebookTwitterLinkedinEmailWhatsapp

Line of Duty creator Jed Mercurio has produced a bonus episode for fans following the show’s nail-biting finale.
Ted Hastings, Steph Corbett and Steve Arnott face one of their most difficult challenges to date after they came face-to-face with a serial liar in the latest episode.

Questioning the prime minister of Great Britain, Boris Johnson, they delve into his deception around a BYOB party hosted in Downing Street during the height of lockdown.

Hastings concluded that the PM “knowingly and intentionally flouted the rules” because he believes he’s “above the law”.
Watch the clip in full below:









						Jed Mercurio produces bonus episode of Line of Duty - featuring Boris Johnson
					

Ted Hastings told the PM that AC-12 are satisfied "you knowingly and intentionally flouted the rules because you believe you're above the law".




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


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## wayneL (20 January 2022)

This is not a comment on policy but on the reeking, stinking double standards in this country. 

Very much like unmandated judges sitting in novaks case and federal parliamentarians forcing we proles:

Disgusting.





__





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					www.couriermail.com.au


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## Knobby22 (20 January 2022)

basilio said:


> Promising effective cheap treatment to mitigate effects of severe COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Big trial taking place. Excellent results in reducing inflammation and replication. You breath it in through a Ventalin type inhaler. Simple blood thinner. Cheap. No horrible side effects. A winner!


----------



## DB008 (20 January 2022)

.​


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## wayneL (20 January 2022)

...and just a reminder how much you've all been had:


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## Knobby22 (20 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> View attachment 136152
> 
> 
> 
> .​



Latest poll published today shows Dan's lead has increased and he would rout the opposition again at the next election.
I think all the hate memes just make him stronger. 
I am surprised.


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## Knobby22 (20 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Big trial taking place. Excellent results in reducing inflammation and replication. You breath it in through a Ventalin type inhaler. Simple blood thinner. Cheap. No horrible side effects. A winner!



Just to add 70% !!!! improvement in Oxygen levels after completing a course. This is the way out!


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## Humid (20 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Latest poll published today shows Dan's lead has increased and he would rout the opposition again at the next election.
> I think all the hate memes just make him stronger.
> I am surprised.



Have you seen the opposition


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## Knobby22 (20 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Have you seen the opposition



I know. Guy is proven dishonest. One idiot promised to shut down a women's safe house for women who have been bashed in Brighton (rich people shouldn'thavethese facilities in their neighbourhood), one practically supports conspiracy theorists and just posts memes.

The rump that is left after the last wipe out are terrible and 4 in 5 Liberal voters would prefer Andrews as leader rather than Guy. That says everything.

Honestly they need to be very careful picking their candidates.

They have to do better. Do we really want to give Andrews Carte Blanche again?


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## wayneL (20 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Just to add 70% !!!! improvement in Oxygen levels after completing a course. This is the way out!



Got a link @Knobby22 ?


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## Knobby22 (20 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Got a link @Knobby22 ?











						Blood thinner could be used to treat and stop transmission of COVID-19
					

Initial results of an Australian study indicate the drug Heparin could be “a promising treatment” and also “a possible preventative against the virus” when inhaled.




					www.theage.com.au


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## Knobby22 (20 January 2022)

Sorry, a mistake above, *1* in 5 *Liberal *voters would prefer Andrews as leader over Guy. Still.


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## wayneL (20 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Sorry, a mistake above, *1* in 5 *Liberal *voters would prefer Andrews as leader over Guy. Still.



Just about all Libs are petty tyrants or just pathetic. It's disgusting from a once great party.


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## Knobby22 (20 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Just about all Libs are petty tyrants or just pathetic. It's disgusting from a once great party.



The person who should have been leader was voted out last election. He would have been good.








						‘Come back and lead’? Not quite, but Pesutto wants more than just a comeback
					

John Pesutto would have gone for Liberal leadership if he didn’t lose his seat of Hawthorn on live TV in 2018. Now, he’s confirmed he wants to be an MP again and doesn’t want to stop there.




					www.theage.com.au


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## wayneL (20 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Blood thinner could be used to treat and stop transmission of COVID-19
> 
> 
> Initial results of an Australian study indicate the drug Heparin could be “a promising treatment” and also “a possible preventative against the virus” when inhaled.
> ...



Interesting. I was asking a Doc client of mine about using blood thinners. She hadn't thought of that and didn't have much to say.


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## Knobby22 (20 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Interesting. I was asking a Doc client of mine about using blood thinners. She hadn't thought of that and didn't have much to say.



And breathing it in too! I wonder who was the genius that had the brainwave?


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## basilio (20 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> The person who should have been leader was voted out last election. He would have been good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




John Pesutto is intelligent, classy and capable. Would be a worthy Lib leader and  State Premier.

Having said that I honestly think those attributes won't be effective getting him sufficient Liberal  Party support with the current culture of the party.


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## wayneL (20 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> And breathing it in too! I wonder who was the genius that had the brainwave?



It makes you wonder why nobody thought of it before. 

Blood thinners, yep that makes total sense and something I had been thinking about as indicated above.

Inhalants, also make total sense as the virus lodges in the nasal cavity and throat first... In fact we have been using inhalants for run-of-the-mill colds and flus for decades.... Works pretty damn good too, if you catch them early.

Putting two together in the same product... Pretty obvious in hindsight but yes, genius.


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## mullokintyre (20 January 2022)

There are comedians everywhere.

Mick


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## basilio (20 January 2022)

This is brilliant  

The costs seem so ridiculously reasonable they can only go up by 1000% if produced under commercial considerations. 
*'A Fitbit for the face': How new mask prototypes can detect leaks and diagnose COVID*​

How about a mask that can diagnose COVID?​It may seem hard to believe, but a laboratory at Harvard in the US has found a cheap way of putting a COVID test in an N95 mask.

Announced last year, the button-activated mask gives results within 90 minutes at levels of accuracy comparable to standard nucleic acid-based diagnostic tests like polymerase chain reactions (PCR).






 Strips of freeze-dried cellular machinery are added to a medical-grade face mask.(Supplied: Harvard)
And it costs about $US5 ($7), said Peter Nguyen, one of the Harvard scientists who developed the prototype.

"In essence, our technology miniaturises an entire laboratory onto a wearable garment," he said.



> "It combines the high accuracy of PCR tests with the speed and low cost of antigen tests."




*








						Face mask design hasn't changed in decades. These devices bring them into the 21st century
					

The pandemic has seen a lot of changes, but one thing that's remained the same for the past two years is face mask technology: we're still using old designs. But that might be about to change.




					www.abc.net.au
				



*


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## moXJO (20 January 2022)

A very good article on face mask usage (what I've been saying all along).









						Do I need an N95 mask and if so, can I reuse it?
					

Experts disagree with the practice. But if you’re going to do it, it’s only advisable under certain conditions.




					www.smh.com.au
				




It's literally just a security blanket the way most people use it.


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## basilio (20 January 2022)

Czech singer Hanka Horká dies after intentionally contracting COVID-19​Posted 2h ago2 hours ago




 Horká's son said she preferred to catch the disease rather than get vaccinated.(Facebook: Hanka Horká)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article


An anti-vax Czech folk singer has died after she deliberately contracted COVID-19 to obtain a health pass that would have allowed her to visit the sauna and theatre, her family said.
Key points:​
The singer's son blamed her death on a local anti-vax movement
Horká took to social media to say she had survived the virus then died two days later 
She was 57 years old









						Czech folk singer dies after intentionally contracting COVID-19
					

An anti-vax Czech folk singer has died after she deliberately contracted COVID-19 to obtain a health pass that would have allowed her to visit the sauna and theatre, her family says.




					www.abc.net.au


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## mullokintyre (20 January 2022)

It seems that Tennis Australia is going to get into more hot water over its COVID protocols.
From 


> Tennis Australia says its Covid testing regime will not change in the wake of Alexander Zverev’s explosive claims that “quite a few players have it” at the Australian Open.
> As it stands, players are provided with rapid antigen tests on-site daily, but it is based on an honesty system as to whether they complete them.
> But it is their personal responsibility to monitor for symptoms and actually do the tests.
> Zverev’s comments, which came after Australian Bernard Tomic lashed the testing protocols, raise questions as to how many players are actually completing rapid tests each day, particularly if they have no symptoms and consider themselves a chance to progress.
> ...



So, your an international tennis star competing for some big prizes with two of the top four seeds not even competing,  would you let it be known you were positive if you even took a test??
Djokic has already proved that he  ignores the protocols, so why not others?
It should be noted that the Chairperson of TA has been totally silent during all this.
Just like last year when she only turned up at the final to present the cup and make a long speech.
And while speaking of Djokovic, I heard on the radio in the car a few minutes ago that the Feds have warned anti vax surfer, Kelly Slater not to bother coming to Australia unless he is vaxed.
Mick


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## DB008 (20 January 2022)

*Question*

Is there a way of testing to see if you've had Covid-19? Retro test?


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## moXJO (20 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> *Question*
> 
> Is there a way of testing to see if you've had Covid-19? Retro test?



Yeah. Not sure if it's free though. But you can get it done for about $200 online.


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## Logique2 (20 January 2022)

'Pfizer-mectin'








						Covid: Pfizer says antiviral pill 89% effective in high-risk cases
					

The company stopped clinical trials early because initial results for the drug were so positive.



					www.bbc.com
				



Seems anti-virals are now fine, once big pharma is flogging rhem off to governments, at a premium


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## barney (20 January 2022)

basilio said:


> Czech singer Hanka Horká dies after intentionally contracting COVID-19​




Thanks for the link @basilio 

That is not a good look of course for those who are "vaccine-unsure" (myself included)


I do wonder though:  


Given she had just "tweeted" that she was basically on the mend and feeling "over it"  (the effects of the virus)


Plus the Report does not confirm she actually died *"from"* Covid.  (even though that is the implication)


And, given recent Media reports (across the World)  have been perhaps *less than transparent* 


Is there some cause for questioning the *"intention"* of the presented facts?  (genuine suggestion)


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## basilio (20 January 2022)

barney said:


> Thanks for the link @basilio
> 
> That is not a good look of course for those who are "vaccine-unsure" (myself included)
> 
> ...



Your grasping at non existent straws  Barney.  This is not the first time someone has passed through some very difficult COVID illnesses, felt a bit better - and then relapsed  quickly and fatally.  And it almost certainly happens with other illnesses as well.

It is what it is.  She didn't want to be vaccinated. She deliberately  infected herself with COVID.  She had a fatal bout of the illness.

Of course everyone is free to believe whatever they want these days.  Reality and facts have little to do with acceptance. And because this  incident was published in the MSN in some circles it will be  instantly and automatically discounted by a number of people.

_Horká’s son, Jan Rek, said she deliberately spent time around him and his father after the two men, who are fully immunized, contracted the virus. She had been seeking a recovery pass, he told the British Broadcasting Corp. In the Czech Republic, proof of vaccination or recovery from infection is needed to enter dining and leisure spaces.

“She should have isolated for a week because we tested positive. But she was with us the whole time,” Rek told the BBC. On Sunday, the day Horká died, she felt better and dressed to go for a walk. But her back began hurting and she went to lie down in her bedroom._
*
“In about 10 minutes it was all over,” her son said. “She choked to death.”*

_Rek told the BBC his mother didn’t believe in conspiracy theories about coronavirus vaccines. “Her philosophy was that she was more okay with the idea of catching covid than getting vaccinated,” he said. But he went public with the story, originally in an interview with Czech public radio station iRozhlas.cz, in the hope of convincing others to get vaccinated. “If you have living examples from real life, it’s more powerful than just graphs and numbers.”_



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/01/20/czech-singer-dies-covid-hanka-horka/


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## barney (20 January 2022)

basilio said:


> Your grasping at non existent straws  Barney.




I assure/reassure you that is not my intention Bas ... and I thank you for the further info above by the way.

I'm not looking for conspiracy, just transparency ...   

(Although in saying that, I confess some of the current conspiracy theories seem to make more sense to my now skeptical eyes  )

Therefore I accept my points of view will be biased by my skepticism and should be taken with an appropriate amount of "salt" 


Just as an example (and I totally accept it proves nothing)

I recall a few days ago when there were 16 deaths post Covid in QLD;

The main stream media headlines were something akin to, only *one person* out of all the deaths had been *"boosted"*

The intimation behind the message (unless I'm very poor at reading intimation) was,

That not being fully vaccinated (ie now boosted) puts you at more risk of death (That may well be true btw, however)


The actual stats on that particular day were in fact; 

*Of the 16 deaths ......  13 people were fully vaccinated* (or at least double jabbed)  

And *3 were unvaccinated*.


Yet the media (for whatever reason), preferred to hype up the fear factor of being "un-protected" by highlighting *"boosters"*

I make no particular inference out of those stats either way (because given Aus has a 90+% vax rate, those numbers are "understandable"




For the record,  *9 out of 12 people*  (in the last 2 weeks) of my close personal contacts who have contracted Covid 

Have been *fully "vaccinated".*   And the 3 unvaccinated were *young children*! 


If this unfortunate lady Hanka Horka died "from" covid after willingly contracting covid, that is a terrible thing, 

But *choking* to death within 10 minutes after previously feeling well does seem unusual? 

I just wonder whether we are being given *ALL* the details of the situation?


Either way, a sad story on many fronts.


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## Knobby22 (20 January 2022)

barney said:


> Thanks for the link @basilio
> 
> That is not a good look of course for those who are "vaccine-unsure" (myself included)
> 
> ...



Now that Novavax is approved, are you going to take it Barney?


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## barney (21 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Now that Novavax is approved, are you going to take it Barney?




Probably no surprise Knobby that i'm a bit gun-shy of covid vaccines in general.

In saying that however, if I *had* to get one, the Novavax would definitely be the preferred one.

Being a "protein subunit" vaccine where the body is not "coerced' to replicate the  spike protein, rather just deal with a "dead copy" of the virus (sequence), it seems to eliminate the potential harms of antibody enhancement via potential "uncontrollable" spike replication from the mRNA vaccines.

I know the earlier studies were showing high efficacy/low adverse reactions for the Novavax.  I confess I haven't looked at how it is performing against the Omicron.

Currently I'm going into my third day after an extended close contact with a family member who was diagnosed with Covid a couple of days ago.

Bit of a "not quite normal" minor rasp in the throat and a slight foggy head, but I often have those symptoms anyway  lol 

Given this is my second family close contact in the last few months, and assuming I don't catch it or only get a mild dose, I'd say i am either very lucky, or all my prophylactic "medications" and other precautions may have been helpful ?  

Can't prove it. May be pure luck, but hopefully the resilience continues 

Cheers.


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## wayneL (21 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Now that Novavax is approved, are you going to take it Barney?



For me there is a complex risk reward scenario.

For me I don't believe my health risk is great at all, therefore I wouldn't be taking novavax based on health benefits.

The greater risk is government tyranny. If the risk from novavax is less than my perceived risk from the WA Gestapo, it may be worth it, but only under duress.

I will most likely use that status to get the hell out of Dodge.


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## Knobby22 (21 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> For me there is a complex risk reward scenario.
> 
> For me I don't believe my health risk is great at all, therefore I wouldn't be taking novavax based on health benefits.
> 
> ...



I would be very surprised if you took it.


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## Knobby22 (21 January 2022)

barney said:


> Probably no surprise Knobby that i'm a bit gun-shy of covid vaccines in general.
> 
> In saying that however, if I *had* to get one, the Novavax would definitely be the preferred one.
> 
> ...



Good luck.


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## moXJO (21 January 2022)

basilio said:


> Czech singer Hanka Horká dies after intentionally contracting COVID-19​Posted 2h ago2 hours ago
> View attachment 136175
> 
> Horká's son said she preferred to catch the disease rather than get vaccinated.(Facebook: Hanka Horká)
> ...



Couple of weird things about this story.
First is more irony
Two vaxxed people infect a non vaxxed person.

But the other was that she apparently felt ok, then later complained of a sore back. Then went to lay down and within 10mins had chocked to death. 
Sounds suss.


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## barney (21 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Good luck.



All good M8.  I understand why others think that those who don't wish to take the vax may be tempting fate unnecessarily (including one of my best friends who is constantly "at me") 

It definitely hasn't been a random decision even though many can't understand the decision

But at this point in time, its a decision I'm happy with

I can assure that if i do happen to get crook, I won't be winging about it. 

I accept my decision and any/all consequences that go with it.  Pretty much the same way I treat Trading Specs

Cheers.


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## DB008 (21 January 2022)

​
What is also very interesting is that the "270 Doctors" who signed a letter against Joe Rogan, aren't "Doctors".

​​



You've been had
​
.​


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## Knobby22 (21 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Couple of weird things about this story.
> First is more irony
> Two vaxxed people infect a non vaxxed person.
> 
> ...



Threr are a lot of side effects that the virus can give you. Stroke, heart inflammation, etc. The family is convinced, we weren't there. 

She was under its effects probably trying not to worry them. As you know, I know a person in her 40s who has ruined lungs from it. 

There is always some doubt in everything in life and death but 57 year olds don't normally die that easy. I reckon it is highly likely the virus was a factor. (Same age as Keanu Reaves and myself and we still look pretty good).

Also  being vaccinated doesn’t stop you catching it and spreading it. You know that personally Moxjo. It just lets your body fight it faster because it has been primed.


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## Knobby22 (21 January 2022)

barney said:


> All good M8.  I understand why others think that those who don't wish to take the vax may be tempting fate unnecessarily (including one of my best friends who is constantly "at me")
> 
> It definitely hasn't been a random decision even though many can't understand the decision
> 
> ...




Your odds are 4 times better with Omicron and the hospital treatments have improved also increasing your odds substantially.

I am pretty risk adverse with health but less so with money as I like the thrill. Those high odds horses and speccys sometimes come in and luck is a fortune.


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## mullokintyre (21 January 2022)

Israel has gone into a fourth Jab of anit virus Vax in recent times, but the latest results suggest that the fourth Jab does not provide much at all. Israel has had half a million of its citizens onto a fourth injection, but still the virus runs rampant.

FromTodays Australian


> Israel experienced its highest daily number of new Covid cases this week – 71,000 out of a population of 9 million – but the head of country’s health department, Nahman Ash, concedes the number may be up to three times higher. Whichever figure is correct, the trend is certain: case numbers have been rising every day for the past two weeks, as the Omicron wave surges.
> “Ninety-eight per cent of our patients are now infected with Omicron,” says Dror Mevorach, who heads the Covid ward at Hadassah hospital in Jerusalem.
> From the start, Israel has been proactive, pioneering mass vaccinations and the third booster shot. Once it became clear that the largest numbers of vaccinated people contracting the Omicron variant were older, Israel last month initiated a fourth vaccine booster for those over 60, as well as frontline medical workers and the immuno-compromised.
> 
> ...



Mick


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## mullokintyre (21 January 2022)

Mark Macgowan has backtracked on his promise to open up the Country called WA to foreigners, and copped a bit of flack.
I had a quick look at this caption from the ABC , and the  hearing impaired translator seemed to be giving a pretty good translation of what Macgowans attitude to everybody might be.


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## moXJO (21 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Threr are a lot of side effects that the virus can give you. Stroke, heart inflammation, etc. The family is convinced, we weren't there.
> 
> She was under its effects probably trying not to worry them. As you know, I know a person in her 40s who has ruined lungs from it.
> 
> ...



It's more likely it was a blood clot. I don't believe it was "choking to death". If you are going to use a death to push a cause, then let the facts come out. Was it omicron or delta?
I was reading through comments and people think omicron is a death sentence. The fear is unjustified.

From what I understand, the recovery phase can involve heart attacks, various blood clots etc.


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## sptrawler (21 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Latest poll published today shows Dan's lead has increased and he would rout the opposition again at the next election.
> I think all the hate memes just make him stronger.
> I am surprised.



There's a reason for that, Victorians. 









						'Show some respect': Australian Open rocked by 'disgusting' scenes
					

Daniil Medvedev was forced to ask the crowd to 'show some respect' after his win over Nick Kyrgios. Read all the details here.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				




Or this one. 🤣 








						Medvedev slams booing fans, Kyrgios says tennis needs to engage with fans or ‘die out’
					

For the second straight match involving the local favourite, his opponent complained afterwards of the disrespectful treatment they were given by hostile fans in the crowd booing and sledging.




					www.theage.com.au
				




Medvedev slams Melbourne fans for having a low IQ.


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## sptrawler (21 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Mark Macgowan has backtracked on his promise to open up the Country called WA to foreigners, and copped a bit of flack.
> I had a quick look at this caption from the ABC , and the  hearing impaired translator seemed to be giving a pretty good translation of what Macgowans attitude to everybody might be.



He was just waiting for an excuse, record surpluses, record country W.A tourism spend, more work than workers, what's not to like.  

Hopefully when covid does eventually hit W.A, it isn't a really nasty strain.


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## moXJO (21 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> He was just waiting for an excuse, record surpluses, record country W.A tourism spend, more work than workers, what's not to like.
> 
> Hopefully when covid does eventually hit W.A, it isn't a really nasty strain.



They can pretty much stay closed as it's all mining. 
Personally I wouldn't notice if they lock down for 5 years. Definitely a cult mentality lining up over there. Unfortunately today's hero's are often tomorrow's villains. Reminds me of the way Canada went.


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## barney (21 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> It's more likely it was a blood clot.
> 
> From what I understand, the recovery phase can involve heart attacks, various blood clots etc.




Good points @moXJO   Covid is essentially a clotting disease so unfortunately in Ms Horka's case, that makes sense.  

Of course, we know that the vaccines are also known to cause clotting issues in some people, so it appears the media reporting in this case is presenting an unnecessary bias for the sake of yet another headline. 

Not good journalism in my view, to the point of being disrespectful to the deceased and her family.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 January 2022)

This will make you laugh...and cry because it is all true.


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## barney (21 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> This will make you laugh...and cry because it is all true.





I'm old fashioned and not particularly tech savvy @Knobby22  ...

What does this mean/and what are you referring to??   (Sorry if that is a dumb question)  I am an old b@stard, lol


----------



## Knobby22 (21 January 2022)

barney said:


> I'm old fashioned and not particularly tech savvy @Knobby22  ...
> 
> What does this mean/and what are you referring to??   (Sorry if that is a dumb question)  I am an old b@stard, lol



Its a short video with the latest Covid rules that don't really work. Very funny, not political but a bit tragic also. Click on the picture.


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## sptrawler (21 January 2022)

Sounds like Europe and the UK are going to adopt the same covid tactics, as you guys over East.








						Europeans consider a new COVID-19 strategy: living with the virus
					

The idea is to move from crisis mode to control mode, approaching the virus in much the same way countries deal with flu or measles.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## barney (21 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Its a short video with the latest Covid rules that don't really work. Very funny, not political but a bit tragic also. Click on the picture.



Lol .... For some reason the "picture" did not show up till today on my computer

Anyway, now I understand .....Crack up, lol


----------



## moXJO (21 January 2022)

barney said:


> Lol .... For some reason the "picture" did not show up till today on my computer
> 
> Anyway, now I understand .....Crack up, lol





h ttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qnoK_Vbu4aU


----------



## IFocus (22 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like Europe and the UK are going to adopt the same covid tactics, as you guys over East.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





What screw it up  🤣  🤣


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> What screw it up  🤣  🤣




Well the media is beginning to roll the narrative over, from the guy is an idiot, to it looks like what he said was right and it might be working.
Not that the media will ever put like that.









						These eight charts suggest Australia may have reached its Omicron peak, with one state ahead of the rest
					

The evidence is firming up that at least one state — New South Wales — has reached its hospitalisation peak for this wave of the pandemic.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
The evidence is firming up that at least one state — New South Wales — has reached its hospitalisation peak for this wave of the pandemic.

*It comes as new figures show the overall burden on the health system is lower than scenario modelling released by the government at the start of the year*.

The silver lining to a deadly week in NSW also gives us some hints about when other states might reach a peak in the Omicron wave, while case numbers remain tricky to interpret.


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2022)

""A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." Winston Churchill

It seems the truth may be at last be getting its pants on.


----------



## IFocus (22 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well the media is beginning to roll the narrative over, from the guy is an idiot, to it looks like what he said was right and it might be working.
> Not that the media will ever put like that.
> 
> 
> ...





You would have to hope what's happened is worth it, I wonder if we just get another variant and press replay guess no one really knows.


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> You would have to hope what's happened is worth it, I wonder if we just get another variant and press replay guess no one really knows.



That is what worries me, it is ok to keep a lid on it, but eventually alladin will get out of the lamp, I just hope when that happens in W.A it isnt a really bad variant.


----------



## wayneL (22 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is what worries me, it is ok to keep a lid on it, but eventually alladin will get out of the lamp, I just hope when that happens in W.A it isnt a really bad variant.



MaoClown IS the bad variant.


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> MaoClown IS the bad variant.



I can understand his reasoning, financial, political and personal, but it could all backfire very badly when there is no more reasonable excuse to keep the borders closed.


----------



## IFocus (22 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is what worries me, it is ok to keep a lid on it, but eventually alladin will get out of the lamp, I just hope when that happens in W.A it isnt a really bad variant.




Was talking re NSW, talking to the son in NSW he hasn't any work everyone is acting as if its a lock down, NSW get through this then what happens when the next variant shows up back to start again don't collect $200?


----------



## moXJO (22 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> Was talking re NSW, talking to the son in NSW he hasn't any work everyone is acting as if its a lock down, NSW get through this then what happens when the next variant shows up back to start again don't collect $200?



You accept its endemic and carry on. Same as sars,mers, etc which were all much much much deadlier.


----------



## wayneL (23 January 2022)

Even Democrats are waking up.


----------



## noirua (23 January 2022)

Leading French scientist: variant of Omicron may cause new Covid wave
					

Professor Antoine Flahault also says that the variant - dubbed ‘BA.2’ - may be the reason cases are not falling as quickly as expected in France




					www.connexionfrance.com
				



20 January 2022


----------



## DB008 (23 January 2022)

I've had my 3 shots, l won't be getting any more. I did my part. Getting boosters every 3/6 months is not good for your immune system. Natural immunity will always be better than the jab, but your not allowed to talk about this.

The only thing l'll have going forward (unless a new strain emerges and 10% mortality rate) is -

Ivermectin
Monoclonal antibodies
Fluvoxamine
If Palletjack wants me to get more, she can shelf it.

The narrative that has been pushed from the USA is shameful/disgusting (both by the Biden Admin and Mainstream Media/Social Media). 
Take mRNA/J&J or your a conspiracy theorist/nut.
Unless you're CNN, you are not allowed to mention Monoclonal Antibodies.
Meanwhile, declassified documents shows that the US Military has confirmed that Ivermectin works (during all stages of infection).


----------



## DB008 (23 January 2022)

Monash University​
Lab experiments show anti-parasitic drug, Ivermectin, ​eliminates SARS-CoV-2 in cells in 48 hours​
​A collaborative study led by the Monash Biomedicine Discovery Institute (BDI) with the Peter Doherty Institute of Infection and Immunity (Doherty Institute), a joint venture of the University of Melbourne and Royal Melbourne Hospital, has shown that an anti-parasitic drug already available around the world kills the virus within 48 hours.​​The Monash Biomedicine Discovery Institute’s Dr Kylie Wagstaff, who led the study, said the scientists showed that the drug, Ivermectin, stopped the SARS-CoV-2 virus growing in cell culture within 48 hours.​​“We found that even a single dose could essentially remove all viral RNA by 48 hours and that even at 24 hours there was a really significant reduction in it,” Dr Wagstaff said.​​Ivermectin is an FDA-approved anti-parasitic drug that has also been shown to be effective _in vitro_ against a broad range of viruses including HIV, Dengue, Influenza and Zika virus.​​Dr Wagstaff cautioned that the tests conducted in the study were _in vitro_ and that trials needed to be carried out in people.​​“Ivermectin is very widely used and seen as a safe drug. We need to figure out now whether the dosage you can use it at in humans will be effective – that’s the next step,” Dr Wagstaff said.​​“In times when we’re having a global pandemic and there isn’t an approved treatment, if we had a compound that was already available around the world then that might help people sooner. Realistically it’s going to be a while before a vaccine is broadly available.​​Although the mechanism by which Ivermectin works on the virus is not known, it is likely, based on its action in other viruses, that it works to stop the virus ‘dampening down’ the host cells’ ability to clear it, Dr Wagstaff said.​​Royal Melbourne Hospital’s Dr Leon Caly, a Senior Medical Scientist at the Victorian Infectious Diseases Reference Laboratory (VIDRL) at the Doherty Institute where the experiments with live coronavirus were conducted, is the study’s first author.​​“As the virologist who was part of the team who were first to isolate and share SARS-COV2 outside of China in January 2020, I am excited about the prospect of Ivermectin being used as a potential drug against COVID-19,”  Dr Caly said.​​Dr Wagstaff made a previous breakthrough finding on Ivermectin in 2012 when she identified the drug and its antiviral activity with Monash Biomedicine Discovery Institute’s Professor David Jans, also an author on this paper. Professor Jans and his team have been researching Ivermectin for more than 10 years with different viruses.​​Dr Wagstaff and Professor Jans started investigating whether it worked on the SARS-CoV-2 virus as soon as the pandemic was known to have started.​​The use of Ivermectin to combat COVID-19 would depend on the results of further pre-clinical testing and ultimately clinical trials, with funding urgently required to keep progressing the work, Dr Wagstaff said.​
​

https://www.monash.edu/discovery-in...n,-eliminates-SARS-CoV-2-in-cells-in-48-hours​

.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Monash University​
> Lab experiments show anti-parasitic drug, Ivermectin, ​eliminates SARS-CoV-2 in cells in 48 hours​
> ​A collaborative study led by the Monash Biomedicine Discovery Institute (BDI) with the Peter Doherty Institute of Infection and Immunity (Doherty Institute), a joint venture of the University of Melbourne and Royal Melbourne Hospital, has shown that an anti-parasitic drug already available around the world kills the virus within 48 hours.​​The Monash Biomedicine Discovery Institute’s Dr Kylie Wagstaff, who led the study, said the scientists showed that the drug, Ivermectin, stopped the SARS-CoV-2 virus growing in cell culture within 48 hours.​​“We found that even a single dose could essentially remove all viral RNA by 48 hours and that even at 24 hours there was a really significant reduction in it,” Dr Wagstaff said.​​Ivermectin is an FDA-approved anti-parasitic drug that has also been shown to be effective _in vitro_ against a broad range of viruses including HIV, Dengue, Influenza and Zika virus.​​Dr Wagstaff cautioned that the tests conducted in the study were _in vitro_ and that trials needed to be carried out in people.​​“Ivermectin is very widely used and seen as a safe drug. We need to figure out now whether the dosage you can use it at in humans will be effective – that’s the next step,” Dr Wagstaff said.​​“In times when we’re having a global pandemic and there isn’t an approved treatment, if we had a compound that was already available around the world then that might help people sooner. Realistically it’s going to be a while before a vaccine is broadly available.​​Although the mechanism by which Ivermectin works on the virus is not known, it is likely, based on its action in other viruses, that it works to stop the virus ‘dampening down’ the host cells’ ability to clear it, Dr Wagstaff said.​​Royal Melbourne Hospital’s Dr Leon Caly, a Senior Medical Scientist at the Victorian Infectious Diseases Reference Laboratory (VIDRL) at the Doherty Institute where the experiments with live coronavirus were conducted, is the study’s first author.​​“As the virologist who was part of the team who were first to isolate and share SARS-COV2 outside of China in January 2020, I am excited about the prospect of Ivermectin being used as a potential drug against COVID-19,”  Dr Caly said.​​Dr Wagstaff made a previous breakthrough finding on Ivermectin in 2012 when she identified the drug and its antiviral activity with Monash Biomedicine Discovery Institute’s Professor David Jans, also an author on this paper. Professor Jans and his team have been researching Ivermectin for more than 10 years with different viruses.​​Dr Wagstaff and Professor Jans started investigating whether it worked on the SARS-CoV-2 virus as soon as the pandemic was known to have started.​​The use of Ivermectin to combat COVID-19 would depend on the results of further pre-clinical testing and ultimately clinical trials, with funding urgently required to keep progressing the work, Dr Wagstaff said.​
> ​
> ...



In cell cultures for FS  in  concentrations that will kill you if it was in your body in a LAB. Jeez.  In real life, not very effective. This was published May 2020, old news, numerous studies have occured since then! Anyone know experiments in a dish don't always work in real life as any biotech investor will tell you. 

Also there are now better more highly effective treatments now. Anyone taking this needs his head read.


----------



## bellenuit (23 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Natural immunity will always be better than the jab, but your not allowed to talk about this.




It's discussed all the time. We have even posted MS articles when you brought this up previously. But what you fail to state, because your news sources do not talk about it, is that a breakthrough infection following the jab gives better immunity than that from the infection on its own, and additionally the jab may prevent your death or serious illness if you get jabbed before getting infected.


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## wayneL (23 January 2022)

If the jab doesn't kill first.


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## bellenuit (23 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> If the jab doesn't kill first.




Good on you Wayne. I am glad you are coming around to recognising that if you catch COVID, then having had the jab beforehand will not only give you better immunity than the natural immunity acquired by the infection alone, but will also provide better protection against death and hospitalisation should you be infected. A no brainer for anyone with a brain.

Of course you are right in adding the proviso that this is only applicable if the jab doesn't kill you first. But by agreeing the jab will make one far less likely to die from a covid infection than not being jabbed, you are just reemphasising why it is better to be jabbed.


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## wayneL (23 January 2022)

bellenuit said:


> Good on you Wayne. I am glad you are coming around to recognising that if you catch COVID, then having had the jab beforehand will not only give you better immunity than the natural immunity acquired by the infection alone, but will also provide better protection against death and hospitalisation should you be infected. A no brainer for anyone with a brain.
> 
> Of course you are right in adding the proviso that this is only applicable if the jab doesn't kill you first. But by agreeing the jab will make one far less likely to die from a covid infection than not being jabbed, you are just reemphasising why it is better to be jabbed.



Oh my! I lost count of the number of logical fallacies in that post.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 January 2022)

More restrictions needed to keep the economy going say public health experts.









						Public health experts suggest more restrictions the only way to emerge from Australia's 'shadow lockdown'
					

As Omicron spreads around the country, thousands of business like Adam Ellston's are being affected while some public health experts suggest more restrictions are necessary.




					www.abc.net.au


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## DB008 (23 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> In cell cultures for FS  in  concentrations that will kill you if it was in your body in a LAB. Jeez.  In real life, not very effective. This was published May 2020, old news, numerous studies have occured since then! Anyone know experiments in a dish don't always work in real life as any biotech investor will tell you.
> 
> Also there are now better more highly effective treatments now. Anyone taking this needs his head read.




Ok, read my head please

Everyone at my workplace, one by one, is testing positive. So far the only symptom has been a sore throat. Thats it! Have l had it? More than likely, old mate sitting next to me was just confirmed PCR today. But, since it was under 4 hours close contact, l'm in the clear   


*CDC*​
COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations by COVID-19 Vaccination Status and Previous COVID-19 Diagnosis — California and New York, May–November 2021​













https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm7104e1_w​


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## bellenuit (23 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Oh my! I lost count of the number of logical fallacies in that post.




Not one. List them.


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## Knobby22 (23 January 2022)

DB008 said:


> Ok, read my head please
> 
> Everyone at my workplace, one by one, is testing positive. So far the only symptom has been a sore throat. Thats it! Have l had it? More than likely, old mate sitting next to me was just confirmed PCR today. But, since it was under 4 hours close contact, l'm in the clear
> 
> ...



Read this article, at least the first few paragraphs. Real life data, in Australia where most people did not catch a previous version of the virus. 









						Older Victorians the hardest hit by latest COVID-19 wave
					

But there’s some good news in the new hospital data, which reveals patients who had their booster are being admitted to hospital at very low rates.




					www.theage.com.au


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## bellenuit (23 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Read this article, at least the first few paragraphs. Real life data, in Australia where most people did not catch a previous version of the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes compelling statistics on the success of the booster in preventing hospitalisation.


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## barney (23 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Also there are now better more highly effective treatments now. Anyone taking this needs his head read.




With total respect, as I do respect your opinions Knobby:  

Just so I have this correct?



Suggesting that  Ivermectin *may/could* have *some/any * (even miniscule ) advantage in combatting Covid definitively makes the proponents of that suggestion  a  "loony case"??  Yes??


I'd submit, that is a *big call* based on my own assessment of the *meta-analysis* done by way smarter people than me in this field?


Even if we eliminate the *"Elagazzar"* study (which all the anti-Ivermectin crowd/*media* seem to focus on), 



The remaining numbers  still suggest that Ivermectin has a potential/(*likely*) positive  impact on the effect of Covid?


If Ivermectin has been seriously debunked, I will stand corrected, and admit that myself and all those "much smarter" people were in fact,

"Loonies"   



 ps  If my post seems a little "cynical" and personal, I apologize/not intended  



But, I am definitely interested in facts, (not opinion), in regard to Ivermectin. 



For example .......


Lets say it "potentially" offers a small (5%) advantage in post Covid outcomes, should we shelve it or welcome it?


That is obviously a rhetorical question, but my point is hopefully equally as obvious

Cheers.


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## Knobby22 (23 January 2022)

barney said:


> With total respect, as I do respect your opinions Knobby:
> 
> Just so I have this correct?
> 
> ...



I just said there is way more effective treatments now. Ivermectin has been shown to be not very effective at the doses needed to not kill you and has side effects. I suggest you talk to a doctor. Preferably one who works in the Emergency ward. I have family in it and let me tell you they think the government is doing a real poor job at communicating
....and the vaccine is still effective against Omicron but less effective. A booster is definitely needed.

Of course some say the doctors and nurses are lying to help big companies and so willing to have their mothers die in suffering to keep this huge conspiracy involving 100s of thousands of people worldwide but I know you aren't one of them.

I'm dropping this now. I have said all I want to say.


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## barney (23 January 2022)

bellenuit said:


> Yes compelling statistics on the success of the booster in preventing hospitalisation.




I actually accept that this is the case   (and I am a vaccine "hesitant" person)


The "booster" most likely gives people an added short term "protection" against infection etc etc  (accepted )


So at what point do we also accept the *"extent"* of said short term protection?



ie.  If a 3rd booster vax gives you a 30/60/90 day window of resistance against the Big-C


Yet, we accept that the big-C is "here to stay" for at least the* short/medium term*,



What is the *actual* advantage in risking an adverse reaction to the vaccine.  (They actually do happen unfortunately  )


For such a small window of "protection"?


Even my 93 year old Dad admits ... he is "disappointed" in the suggested efficacy of the "vaccines" given the "facts"

He is double dosed and boosted of course, but is no longer "confident" in what we have been told. 


Fortunately he is a tough b@stard, and will likely outlive me, whether Covid affected or not, lol


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## barney (23 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> I just said there is way more effective treatments now. Ivermectin has been shown to be not very effective at the doses needed to not kill you and has side effects.




M8, not wanting to appear to be playing the man because I do respect your opinion as I said

But this Covid debacle is, (and has been) a terribly polarizing situation.


You actually said (paraphrasing), that if you took Ivermectin, you would need to "have your head read"??


That is a definitive statement suggesting that Ivermectin is of ZERO advantage?


I accept there are other treatments for Covid which have/are showing good success


But to state that taking Ivermectin (based on the studies to date), is akin to "lunacy"

Seems a little (perhaps a lot)  unfair    (based on my research and humble opinion)

Cheers


ps Just read your last post regarding you have finished saying what you want to say. (I understand)

I had already posted my post so not trying to "badger" I assure.


Cheers (X2)


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## Knobby22 (23 January 2022)

barney said:


> M8, not wanting to appear to be playing the man because I do respect your opinion as I said
> 
> But this Covid debacle is, (and has been) a terribly polarizing situation.
> 
> ...



I suggest that if you do get very sick that you head to the hospital and don't rely on remedies but its your decision.


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## bellenuit (23 January 2022)

barney said:


> The "booster" most likely gives people an added short term "protection" against infection etc etc (accepted )




I think it is not the protection against infection that is so important with Omicron, as we are all likely to get it at some stage, but the protection against getting severe symptoms that may lead to hospitalisation and death. Severe symptoms are not only dangerous to the patient in the immediate term and possibly long term if long covid is acquired, but it additionally puts a strain on our hospital system that can cause problems for others that may need treatment for issues unrelated to covid.

The statistics are overwhelming in favour of being boosted. As we have seen in other countries, Omicron can wash through the community in just a few months and even if the vaccines and booster begin to wane after 4 or 5 months, that may be sufficient to protect our hospital system from collapse.









						Unvaccinated seniors 49 times more likely to be hospitalized than those with boosters – CDC
					

Figures show benefit of Covid vaccines and boosters to reduce hospital risk as agency says: ‘Get vaccinated as soon as possible’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## noirua (23 January 2022)

OMICRON STEALTH causes massive increases in cases in France as well as an increase in Denmark.








						Leading French scientist: variant of Omicron may cause new Covid wave
					

Professor Antoine Flahault also says that the variant - dubbed ‘BA.2’ - may be the reason cases are not falling as quickly as expected in France




					www.connexionfrance.com
				



 20 January 2022
In France, there were 436,167 new cases yesterday, and the infection rate is still rising.


----------



## noirua (23 January 2022)

While cases are low in the U.K., BA.2 accounts for nearly half (45%) of Danish Covid-19 cases, according to Denmark’s Statens Serum Institut (SSI), part of its ministry of health, a jump from just 20% in the last week of 2021. 
21 January 2022








						Here’s What We Know About ‘Stealth’ Omicron BA.2 — The More Infectious Subvariant Better Able To Infect Vaccinated People
					

New research suggests the subvariant, which rapidly became the dominant strain in Denmark, is 33% more likely to infect others compared to the original omicron variant.




					www.forbes.com
				



Reports indicate BA.2 is also spreading in parts of France, India and Norway.


----------



## bellenuit (24 January 2022)

A good study on the effectiveness of vaccines in respect to Omicron from an infection, transmission and hospitalisation basis. Sources of this nature is what people should be basing their opinions on.









						Where do we stand with Omicron?
					

The data, the math, the patterns, and the exit




					erictopol.substack.com
				




Unfortunately, many here use this person as their source.


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## wayneL (24 January 2022)

”Unfortunately” you are full of shyte @bellenuit. You're playing the classic Alinsky style BS and have zero chance of getting accolades from anyone except those in your own echo chamber.


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## bellenuit (24 January 2022)

A complete superficial response devoid of any facts.  But I guess if anyone knows about being full of shyte it would be you. Isn't that your day job? Putting your hand up horses behinds to clear blockages etc.? Or am I wrong? In any case it provides you with a knowledge of Covid and vaccines that surpasses the collective knowledge of the CDC and other national organisations, NOT.


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## wayneL (24 January 2022)

The sh¹t that comes across one's timeline......


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## noirua (25 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> The sh¹t that comes across one's timeline......
> 
> View attachment 136472



I wont personally comment on this.  But here is his profile and he remains in the land of the living.








						Jacques Attali - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



Quotes claiming to be from Attali's book Verbatim have been spread around the internet by covid conspiracy theorists. The quotes are a fabrication. [1]


----------



## bellenuit (25 January 2022)

noirua said:


> I wont personally comment on this.  But here is his profile and he remains in the land of the living.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks Noirua for checking it out and informing us of the errors. Regurgitating sh¹t that one comes across on the internet without checking its veracity and without any care for the effect it might have on others, such as sowing distrust in the worldwide efforts to eradicate this virus, is pretty despicable.


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## mullokintyre (25 January 2022)

Wife the Pharmacist just got notification about the "free" Rat tests from Pharmacies.
The government have announced that they will fund pharmacies  for 10 bucks a pop plus a 4.30 dispensing fee.
The problem is as usual, the realities don't match the  headlines.
Firstly, the Pharmacy has to buy the rat tests themselves on the open market.
The 'Free' kits are not part of the 32 million kits that the feds have ordered. 
The headline price does not match the reality  of trying to source them.
If the kits costs more than 10 bucks to buy, they won't bother ordering them.
The wife reckons it will be at least weeks before the supplies of RAT tests will be sufficient that they flow thru to smaller pharmacies that don't belong to one of the big chains.
Secondly, it will last for three months only, so she recons one month of it will be over before stock arrives.
Thirdly, because it is not linked to any of the government approved dispensing programs, the pharmacies are going to have to keep detailed records as to who bought the kits, as the rebate is only available to concession card holders. There has been no word as to what the procedure will be for pharmacies to recoup the money from the government. If past activities are any indication, it will be a costly convoluted  data matching exercise that may end up costing more than its worth.
Fourthly, after many years of dealing with concession card holders, they will demand the RAT tests because they are free whether they need them or not. There will be hundreds of thousands of RAT tests sitting in cupboards unused, just in case.
Another brilliant thought bubble turned into policy on the run.
Mick


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## basilio (25 January 2022)

Here's a first. Maybe.
News Ltd debunking  fabricated COVID stories  being circulated on Facebook.
In fact it is a very convincing story. Lot's of detail. I'm certain it has had it's effect and equally sure that the believers will not back down.

Truth about 7-year-old boy who ‘died after receiving Covid-19 vaccine’​A Sydney father has shared how his son died in an ambulance days after being vaccinated against Covid-19 — but authorities say it’s not what it seems.




Natalie Brown
@natalieisbrown

3 min read
January 24, 2022 - 6:51PM




A Sydney father’s declaration that his “beautiful” seven-year-old son died in the back of an ambulance of a “massive heart attack” days after receiving his Covid-19 vaccine has been labelled a hoax by authorities.
More from social
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...r/news-story/1e76c33b25dedbd1f35e9a33b1078c96
A Sydney father’s declaration that his “beautiful” seven-year-old son died in the back of an ambulance of a “massive heart attack” days after receiving his Covid-19 vaccine has been labelled a hoax by authorities.

In a lengthy Facebook comment that swiftly drummed up thousands of likes, comments and shares, “Steve Leary” claimed he lost his son “Lachlan” last Wednesday “to the vaccine”.









						Truth about 7yo who ‘died after vax’
					

A Sydney father’s declaration that his “beautiful” seven-year-old son died in the back of an ambulance of a “massive heart attack” days after receiving his Covid-19 vaccine has been labelled a hoax by authorities.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (25 January 2022)

basilio said:


> Here's a first. Maybe.
> News Ltd debunking  fabricated COVID stories  being circulated on Facebook.
> In fact it is a very convincing story. Lot's of detail. I'm certain it has had it's effect and equally sure that the believers will not back down.



Perhaps your antipathy to all things even remotely related to Rupert Murdoch may be slightly misplaced.
Mick


----------



## basilio (25 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Perhaps your antipathy to all things even remotely related to Rupert Murdoch may be slightly misplaced.
> Mick




I  totally despise the guy for the way he uses his media empire on a number of fronts.
But that doesn't mean every story or every writer for News Ltd is wrong. I just look for corroborating evidence or enough evidence in the story to warrant accepting it as reasonably accurate.

On the other hand if Andrew Bolt has his name at the top -  all bets off.


----------



## mullokintyre (25 January 2022)

basilio said:


> I  totally despise the guy for the way he uses his media empire on a number of fronts.
> But that doesn't mean every story or every writer for News Ltd is wrong. I just look for corroborating evidence or enough evidence in the story to warrant accepting it as reasonably accurate.
> 
> On the other hand if Andrew Bolt has his name at the top -  all bets off.



There are those who would say something similar about the Guardian, or the Age, or The Conversation, but from a different political perspective, or anything written by Peter Fitzimmons.
But then again, we all have our inherent biases, even me.
Mick


----------



## bellenuit (25 January 2022)

basilio said:


> In fact it is a very convincing story. Lot's of detail. I'm certain it has had it's effect and equally sure that the believers will not back down.




That's the way it is with the worst of the anti-vaxxers. Just put it out there and damn the consequences. The feeble minded believers will just keep spreading it. It will be enough to deter some people contemplating vaccination for themselves or their children to hold back after reading the article.


----------



## wayneL (25 January 2022)

bellenuit said:


> That's the way it is with the worst of the anti-vaxxers. Just put it out there and damn the consequences. The feeble minded believers will just keep spreading it. It will be enough to deter some people contemplating vaccination for themselves or their children to hold back after reading the article.



Firstly, a disclaimer: I did get sucked in by that image I posted above... mea culpa.

However there is much politicisation and misinformation/disinformation on both sides of this coin, regarding news reports of the deaths from both the wuflu and gene treatments.

However I try to verify the so called data (much of which conflicts with each other), with my real-world observations of what is going on around me and what I can ascertain for real from contacts further afield.

While most people so far haven't seemed to have adverse effects beyond feeling a bit crap for a few days, there are enough people that I know personally that have been very severely affected, including FIL who had to be taken into hospital after AZ 2.

So once again I come back to the risk vs benefit for myself and my wife.

We both have very low BMI indexes and have no underlying health issues... apart from injuries we have never had any need for doctors or hospital and I'm not on any sort of medications whatsoever.

So it seems to me that we probably have a greater risk from the injections than the virus, especially the current iteration.

Add in the still the unknown long term effects of these injections and we both still remain resolutely hesitant... *hesitant, not anti.

Additionally, we have satisfied ourselves that we pose no risk to the wider community by remaining unjabbed, any greater than the jabbed.

FWIW


----------



## SirRumpole (25 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> So it seems to me that we probably have a greater risk from the injections than the virus, especially the current iteration.
> 
> Add in the still the unknown long term effects of these injections and we both still remain resolutely hesitant... *hesitant, not anti.
> 
> Additionally, we have satisfied ourselves that we pose no risk to the wider community by remaining unjabbed, any greater than the jabbed.




You just can't tell some people...


----------



## wayneL (25 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> You just can't tell some people...



Tell some people what, Horace?


----------



## SirRumpole (25 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Tell some people what, Horace?



Scientific evidence Wayne.

Other people have tried but it hasn't got through, so I won't try, but all the best to you and your misses and I hope you manage to avoid any repercussions from your position.


----------



## wayneL (25 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Scientific evidence Wayne.
> 
> Other people have tried but it hasn't got through, so I won't try, but all the best to you and your misses and I hope you manage to avoid any repercussions from your position.
> [/QUote yes
> ...




No idea what happened there but click to expand


----------



## SirRumpole (25 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> No idea what happened there but click to expand




Some reading of prior posts in this thread will help you I hope.


----------



## wayneL (25 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Some reading of prior posts in this thread will help you I hope.



Waiting for your sCiEnCe, Horace.


----------



## The Triangle (25 January 2022)

basilio said:


> Here's a first. Maybe.
> News Ltd debunking  fabricated COVID stories  being circulated on Facebook.
> In fact it is a very convincing story. Lot's of detail. I'm certain it has had it's effect and equally sure that the believers will not back down.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't surprise me if a journalist madeup that facebook page just to report on it.   

"Free" news websites survive on clickbait not genuine journalism.


----------



## mullokintyre (25 January 2022)

The Triangle said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if a journalist madeup that facebook page just to report on it.
> 
> "Free" news websites survive on clickbait not genuine journalism.



Ah 3 cornered one, that even out cynicises me!
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (25 January 2022)

The regulators never cease to amaze me with their risk adverse blinkered approach.
The TGA have held up a number of RAT tests because they may or may not  be s accurate with the latest strains.
FromThe hated Murdoch press


> Australia’s health regulator is holding up the delivery of at least 20 million rapid antigen tests after it launched a review to see if the products are effective against detecting Omicron and other Covid-19 variants.
> As Australia battles a shortage of rapid tests, the Therapeutic Goods Administration has begun a “post market review” of RATs, which also includes previously approved products. It is a move that has frustrated rapid antigen test suppliers, with the TGA perceived to be slowing down the distribution of rapid tests in Australia.
> But the TGA says each new Covid-19 strain emerges – such as the highly infectious but less severe Omicron variant – rapid test manufacturers must ensure that their products remain effective. It is a process that requires rigorous analysis and comes as the World Health Organisation warns Omicron will not be the last Covid mutation.
> “Variants of the virus due to mutations in the protein target of the genome may alter the structure of a viral protein. As a result, tests kits may no longer be able to detect the virus, leading to false negative results,” the TGA said.
> ...



What difference would it make if they let them through while doing their testing.
if people cannot get the Rats,  what do they think will happen?
There will still be infected people running around whether  the TGA approves it or not.
Will we we be worse off?
Its a pandemic for Christs sake,  they have been in use in other countries, don't they think these other countries have had them tested?
Or is just that we are gold plated health?
Useless as t1ts on a bull.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (25 January 2022)

At the risk of upsetting some, there is another study on the Use of Ivermectin   as a treatment for  COVID.
It is only in Brazil, which may not class as a western medical   study, but nonetheless, its worth reading.
From Cureus


> Abstract​Background: Ivermectin has demonstrated different mechanisms of action that potentially protect from both coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) infection and COVID-19-related comorbidities. Based on the studies suggesting efficacy in prophylaxis combined with the known safety profile of ivermectin, a citywide prevention program using ivermectin for COVID-19 was implemented in Itajaí, a southern city in Brazil in the state of Santa Catarina. The objective of this study was to evaluate the impact of regular ivermectin use on subsequent COVID-19 infection and mortality rates.
> Materials and methods: We analyzed data from a prospective, observational study of the citywide COVID-19 prevention with ivermectin program, which was conducted between July 2020 and December 2020 in Itajaí, Brazil. Study design, institutional review board approval, and analysis of registry data occurred after completion of the program. The program consisted of inviting the entire population of Itajaí to a medical visit to enroll in the program and to compile baseline, personal, demographic, and medical information. In the absence of contraindications, ivermectin was offered as an optional treatment to be taken for two consecutive days every 15 days at a dose of 0.2 mg/kg/day. In cases where a participating citizen of Itajaí became ill with COVID-19, they were recommended not to use ivermectin or any other medication in early outpatient treatment. Clinical outcomes of infection, hospitalization, and death were automatically reported and entered into the registry in real time. Study analysis consisted of comparing ivermectin users with non-users using cohorts of infected patients propensity score-matched by age, sex, and comorbidities. COVID-19 infection and mortality rates were analyzed with and without the use of propensity score matching (PSM).
> Results: Of the 223,128 citizens of Itajaí considered for the study, a total of 159,561 subjects were included in the analysis: 113,845 (71.3%) regular ivermectin users and 45,716 (23.3%) non-users. Of these, 4,311 ivermectin users were infected, among which 4,197 were from the city of Itajaí (3.7% infection rate), and 3,034 non-users (from Itajaí) were infected (6.6% infection rate), with a 44% reduction in COVID-19 infection rate (risk ratio [RR], 0.56; 95% confidence interval (95% CI), 0.53-0.58; p < 0.0001). Using PSM, two cohorts of 3,034 subjects suffering from COVID-19 infection were compared. The regular use of ivermectin led to a 68% reduction in COVID-19 mortality (25 [0.8%] versus 79 [2.6%] among ivermectin non-users; RR, 0.32; 95% CI, 0.20-0.49; p < 0.0001). When adjusted for residual variables, reduction in mortality rate was 70% (RR, 0.30; 95% CI, 0.19-0.46; p < 0.0001). There was a 56% reduction in hospitalization rate (44 versus 99 hospitalizations among ivermectin users and non-users, respectively; RR, 0.44; 95% CI, 0.31-0.63; p < 0.0001). After adjustment for residual variables, reduction in hospitalization rate was 67% (RR, 0.33; 95% CI, 023-0.66; p < 0.0001).
> 
> Conclusion: In this large PSM study, regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic agent was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and mortality rates.



Its not definitive, but it does mean that there should be some further  research without the hysterical  denunciations about "horse Medicne".
I am always surprised that people who take blood thinning agents such as Warfarin  are not accused of taking Rat Poison, as warfarin or coumadin, are the rat killing properties in these rodent poisons.
Mick


----------



## barney (25 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Its not definitive, but it does mean that there should be some further  research without the hysterical  denunciations about "horse Medicine".




The unfortunate (possibly sad) outcome of what are some very positive looking results Mick,

Is that many will continue to dismiss Ivermectin unequivocally, simply because

The Study was "Observational"

That is correct, but its a bit like a using a "Moving Average" in technical analysis.

Doesn't prove future direction, but can give a pretty fair indication based on observation/historic data


----------



## DB008 (25 January 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> In cell cultures for FS  in  concentrations that will kill you if it was in your body in a LAB. Jeez.  In real life, not very effective. This was published May 2020, old news, numerous studies have occured since then! Anyone know experiments in a dish don't always work in real life as any biotech investor will tell you.
> 
> Also there are now better more highly effective treatments now. Anyone taking this needs his head read.




I guess I need my head read, still. If Channel 7/9/CNN don't endorse it, it's incorrect.



*Dr. Kory: Ivermectin Can Solve This Pandemic*​
A Brazilian paper published in the last 2 weeks "is one of the most remarkable studies in the history of medicine because it included complete data on 160K people in the city of Itajaí. That health ministry, in June 2020, offered its entire [population] the opportunity to take Ivermectin as a preventative; 113K decided to [take it] and ~50K did not even though the group that elected to take it was sicker, older, more overweight, [and had] much more disease, they got [Covid] 50% less, they went to the hospital 68% less, and they died 70% less often.”

Dr Pierre Kory goes on to point out similar incredible results in Argentina, Peru, and Japan. Within weeks of deploying Ivermectin, “the hospitalization rates reported out of Japan were lower than at any time during the pandemic. That medication works. And when you deploy it in an early test and treat strategy, you can cure and solve this pandemic.”​




Your browser is not able to display this video.




​​​Ivermectin Prophylaxis Used for COVID-19: A Citywide, Prospective, Observational Study of 223,128 Subjects Using Propensity Score Matching​​​Results - Hospitalization and mortality rates in ivermectin users and non-users in propensity score-matched analysis​​As described in Table _2_, after employing PSM, of the 6,068 subjects (3,034 in each group), there were 44 hospitalizations among ivermectin users (1.6% hospitalization rate) and 99 hospitalizations (3.3% hospitalization rate) among ivermectin non-users, a 56% reduction in hospitalization rate (RR, 0.44; 95% CI, 0.31-0.63). When adjustment for variables was employed, the reduction in hospitalization rate was 67% (RR, 0.33; 95% CI, 023-0.66; p < 0.0001).​​​



​There were 25 deaths among ivermectin users (0.8% mortality rate) and 79 deaths among non-ivermectin users (2.6% mortality rate), a 68% reduction in mortality rate (RR, 0.32; 95% CI, 0.20-0.49). When PSM was adjusted, reduction in mortality rate was 70% (RR, 0.30; 95% CI, 0.19-0.46; p < 0.0001).​

https://assets.cureus.com/uploads/original_article/pdf/82162/20220118-32145-1aq0rt1.pdf


https://www.cureus.com/articles/821...3128-subjects-using-propensity-score-matching​

.


----------



## wayneL (25 January 2022)

Holy crap!


----------



## rederob (25 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Its not definitive, but it does mean that there should be some further  research without the hysterical  denunciations about "horse Medicne".



It was pulled from medical science journals but gets regurgitated here yet again.
There are more RCTs in progress that should give a better idea of Ivermectin's efficacy, but there are already a number of proven effective treatments in use so at best it might prove an adjunct to them.


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## basilio (26 January 2022)

The long COVID issue  is probably overshadowed a bit by the focus on serious illnesses and deaths. But the evidence is there that many people  have long term problems after even a mild infection.

The research on the issue is happening .









						Long Covid: doctors find ‘antibody signature’ for patients most at risk
					

Low levels of certain antibodies found to be more common in those who go on to develop long Covid




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## noirua (27 January 2022)

COVID-19: US hospital rejects man for heart transplant because he is not vaccinated
					

Brigham and Women's Hospital policy states DJ Ferguson is no longer eligible for the operation because he hasn't received a coronavirus vaccination - something his family said he refuses to do.




					news.sky.com
				



His family is concerned the vaccine could cause his heart to swell, and put him at "extremely high risk of sudden death".


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## SirRumpole (27 January 2022)

New anti viral drugs to be available in Australia soon.









						A serious case of COVID saw Jeff 'going downhill' fast. Then his doctor prescribed a new pill
					

It sounds too good to be true: a course of antivirals you can take at home to alleviate your symptoms if you're at risk of dying or being hospitalised with COVID-19. But the drugs are landing in Australia in the coming weeks.




					www.abc.net.au


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## noirua (27 January 2022)

__





						IHU: How dangerous is the new Covid variant and where has it spread?
					





					www.msn.com


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## DB008 (27 January 2022)

NSW records 29 COVID deaths, push for booster uptake intensifies​
The NSW Health Minister says the number of people getting a COVID-19 vaccine booster shot isn't good enough as hundreds of thousands of appointments go to waste.​​Over 36 per cent of eligible people in NSW have had their third COVID-19 jab but Health Minister Brad Hazzard said that was not high enough.​​"The numbers of boosters are not where we need them to be to keep people safe," Mr Hazzard said.​​*She said there was also a growing trend of people who had already contracted COVID not getting boosted.*​​"You still need to have it, we cannot reiterate this enough," Ms Pearce said.​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-27/nsw-records-29-covid-19-deaths/100784182​

How about NO!
Growing trend? No, common sense more like it.

If you have had 2 shots _and_ Covid, why would you get a booster?
Makes no sense.
Go and get a booster jab which in around 3 months is gone from your body yet increase risk in myocarditis and potentially weaken your immune system.


----------



## basilio (27 January 2022)

*       Anti-vaxxers hold emergency meeting to prepare new excuses, after provisional approval of Novavax        * 







An emergency meeting of vaccine sceptic Australians has been ALL CAPS typed into Telegram groups after Australia granted provisional approval for the use of the Novavax vaccine.

Many have said they are holding off on getting vaccinated until the arrival of Novavax, and will now have to invent new elaborate conspiracy theories to explain why they will avoid getting jabbed.                                                                                

“It was a pretty solid plan to begin with. Even we could see this government was terrible at organising anything that might be needed to contain COVID. The Government forgetting to order Pfizer vaccines was a huge win for us – it meant we didn’t need to start making excuses for ages.

“But this is the fourth vaccine they’ve approved now, it gets tricky every time we need to move the goal posts,” a spokesperson for the group said.

Some in the group are already claiming that Novovax was developed by Hillary Clinton as a way of controlling people’s votes in the next Presidential election. Others say Novovax includes an ingredient which forces you to like Tom Hanks.

“I thought Novovax was going to be ok. But it turns out it’s imbedded with a chip that downloads Microsoft 365 into your elbow. No thanks”. 

*








						Anti-vaxxers hold emergency meeting to prepare new excuses, after provisional approval of Novavax
					

"We're going to need some new conspiracy theories"




					www.theshovel.com.au
				



*


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## barney (27 January 2022)

basilio said:


> *       Anti-vaxxers hold emergency meeting to prepare new excuses, after provisional approval of Novavax *




Lol, Aussies love a little satire of course.  

Too much however can make the "contributor" (Shovel) look more like a struggling out of work comedian 

Good name for their website however


----------



## sptrawler (27 January 2022)

NSW running out of vaxxers, staff standing around naval gazing.








						NSW booster numbers ‘not what they need to be’ with 100,000 jabs a week left unused
					

The state’s vaccination hubs can administer at least 100,000 more booster jabs a week, as health officials warn valuable staff are being left idle with the program running at half-capacity.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## wayneL (28 January 2022)

Typical example of fear messaging from one of the most egregious reptilian shape shifters out there.

This was no mistake, even 5he correction massively overblown, it's all about the psyop... absolutely shameful.


----------



## DB008 (28 January 2022)

Sweden decides against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-12​
STOCKHOLM, Jan 27 (Reuters) - Sweden has decided against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11, the Health Agency said on Thursday, arguing that the benefits did not outweigh the risks.​​In the US, more than a quarter (28%) or ~8 million of 5-11 year-olds had received at least one vaccine dose as of January 18, 2022.​​Dr. Fauci plans to start vaccinating kids under age 5 with up to 3 doses next month.​

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...ing-covid-vaccines-kids-aged-5-12-2022-01-27/​
.


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## SirRumpole (29 January 2022)

Insurance companies could discriminate against those who have had covid.









						Why a serious case of COVID could affect your insurance, even decades from now
					

Australians infected by COVID could one day be locked out or penalised when they seek life insurance, as scientists continue to uncover the longer-term impacts of the virus.




					www.abc.net.au


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## wayneL (29 January 2022)

Sadistic... There is clearly something pathological about Adern and a few others around the world, including some of our own premiers.


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## SirRumpole (29 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Sadistic... There is clearly something pathological about Adern and a few others around the world, including some of our own premiers.




Its a tough situation living in Afghanistan  then trying to get out. I hope the NZ government  shows some flexibility in this situation.


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## rederob (29 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Its a tough situation living in Afghanistan  then trying to get out. I hope the NZ government  shows some flexibility in this situation.



Pregnancy is *not *an emergency and if @wayneL  knew anything about this journalist he would would know her safety is *not at risk*.
NZ has a *process *for returning and it's not hard to follow.  I suspect Bellis has had reasonable knowledge of her pregnancy and had months to apply for a spot in quarantine in NZ.  Bellis appears to be abusing her status to *queue *jump.


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## SirRumpole (29 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Pregnancy is *not *an emergency and if @wayneL  knew anything about this journalist he would would know her safety is *not at risk*.
> NZ has a *process *for returning and it's not hard to follow.  I suspect Bellis has had reasonable knowledge of her pregnancy and had months to apply for a spot in quarantine in NZ.  Bellis appears to be abusing her status to *queue *jump.




She's a NZ citizen wanting to return home for whatever reason.

If she's prepared to do the isolation and can get transport then I don't believe that NZ has the right to keep her out.


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## rederob (29 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> She's a NZ citizen wanting to return home for whatever reason.
> 
> If she's prepared to do the isolation and can get transport then I don't believe that NZ has the right to keep her out.



You should have read my embedded links @SirRumpole.
She has tried to jump the *MIAS *queue and is not happy!
It's as simple as that.


----------



## wayneL (29 January 2022)

Sieg Heil, @rederob 

Justifying tyranny doesn't make tyranny right.

(I've got a good link coming up)


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## rederob (29 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Sieg Heil, @rederob
> 
> Justifying tyranny doesn't make tyranny right.
> 
> (I've got a good link coming up)



Try to post credibly rather than relying on Twitter for everything.
And try to use the right thread as Bellis's issue has nothing to do with covid outbreaks.
All Bellis needed to do was apply for NZ re-entry via MIAS but, like Djokovic, has tried to game the system via reputation.


----------



## barney (29 January 2022)

I've managed to watch about 3.5 hours of the 5 hour long "round table" discussion chaired by Senator Ron Johnson.

This is just one small clip saved where Attorney Thomas Renz accounts some of the "Government" data retrieved from the Department of Defence in the US (and supplied to the CDC)

The increase in miscarriages, cancer and neurological issues (post vaccine) in the US military is a massive red flag that the vaccines are potentially causing large numbers of "serious"  adverse reactions compared to the past 5 year averages. 

Senator Johnson puts the Biden admin and the DOD on notice. Lets hope an appropriate investigation is carried out because these are serious statistics which need to be sorted.





Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## barney (29 January 2022)

Just following on from the previous video. Leigh Dundas (working with Thomas Renz) calls out the US Department of Defence records, which have seen the high rates of myocarditis cases which were previously accounted for/listed in the government data (post vaccines),

Miraculously disappear from the military data base 

I'd suggest that the head of the DOD and some of "the boys" at the CDC should be feeling a little nervous!

Of course it will just turn out to be a computer issue as per usual.     Criminals!


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## rederob (29 January 2022)

barney said:


> I've managed to watch about 3.5 hours of the 5 hour long "round table" discussion chaired by Senator Ron Johnson.
> 
> This is just one small clip saved where Attorney Thomas Renz accounts some of the "Government" data retrieved from the Department of Defence in the US (and supplied to the CDC)
> 
> ...



Seriously @barney?
You have no idea about the *data* do you?
Believing an incompetent Senator over medical experts is not a pathway to credible posts.


----------



## wayneL (29 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Try to post credibly rather than relying on Twitter for everything.
> And try to use the right thread as Bellis's issue has nothing to do with covid outbreaks.
> All Bellis needed to do was apply for NZ re-entry via MIAS but, like Djokovic, has tried to game the system via reputation.



Mate, you will go to extraordinary lengths of dodgy logic to justify anything estate/establishment does with regards to covid policy.

The truth is covid policy by some governments, including New Zealand is objectively deleterious and diabolical, as evidenced by the link I provided... And most likely unlawful.

That's why I said that you cannot justify tyranny with tyranny.


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## mullokintyre (29 January 2022)

Mick


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## wayneL (29 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Seriously @barney?
> You have no idea about the *data* do you?
> Believing an incompetent Senator over medical experts is not a pathway to credible posts.




Which experts?

Those of us with eyes to see and ears to hear, note that there is a whole spectrum of expert medical opinion.

However those of you in the covid mass formation will only consider "expert opinion" that conforms to your politics... And actively seek to silence others.

In the end, and give it a few years, there will be a Reckoning.


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## SirRumpole (29 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Seriously @barney?
> You have no idea about the *data* do you?
> Believing an incompetent Senator over medical experts is not a pathway to credible posts.



 The article you referenced did not refute or even refer to the data presented by Johnson relating to increased cases of cancer , miscarriages and neurological problems in the military.  Has anyone said these were lies ?


----------



## wayneL (29 January 2022)

I would seriously recommend everybody put aside about an hour and a half and listen to this interview with professor Gigi Foster.

She has also co-authored a book (which I now have on order) "The Great Covid Panic - what happened, by, and what to do about it"



The video agenda:


----------



## barney (29 January 2022)

rederob said:


> Seriously @barney?
> You have no idea about the *data* do you?
> Believing an incompetent Senator over medical experts is not a pathway to credible posts.



Red, I'd say that is probably not a fair assessment of my knowledge, but I'm happy to take it on the chin because I'm a guitar player not a scientist  

The video is simply a tiny snippet of a 5 hour meeting/discussion organised by Senator Johnson and not representative of the rest of the meeting which is medically/scientifically based.

Johnson personally makes *no* scientific or medical assertions of his own, rather listens to the many highly qualified Doctors opinions   

He states that the reason he let the Lawyers Renz and Dundas into the meeting to present their points was because they had three verified and well credentialed "whistleblowers" from the armed forces, *who were named* 

These whistleblowers are under a* condition of perjury for this evidence*, so it is not just some social media hearsay. *If* they are giving false information, they will likely get jail sentences!   This is serious stuff.

Some may suggest that the meeting was organised as an anti-vax display, but *Anthony Fauci* and several other high profile government health officials *were invited* to attend to present their "data" etc

All the information presented by the attending Scientists/Doctors was backed by scientific studies and personal treatment experience

I'd recommend everyone whether pro-vaccine  or vaccine hesitant should listen to at least a reasonable amount of the meeting before disregarding it. It is actually very educational.

The fact that the "data" on myocarditis appears to have been *"Doctored"* (pun intended), if true, is not something that should be dismissed, even if we are not fans of the people presenting it.  Hopefully a court case will bring out the truth.


----------



## barney (29 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The article you referenced did not refute or even refer to the data presented by Johnson relating to increased cases of cancer , miscarriages and neurological problems in the military.  Has anyone said these were lies ?




The article referenced by @rederob was written by Kelsey Dickeson.  

She is probably a nice person, but for her to be indicating we should listen to her "Fauci based" narrative on anything covid related over the opinion of Doctors/Scientists (who were at the Johnson round table meeting), who have been successfully treating covid patients from the outset, is probably not a great idea (in my view)

Miss Dickeson's credentials are as follows:  She has  *2 years* experience as a *multi media journalist*. (She does like pizza however, so can't be all that bad )


----------



## Humid (29 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Mick












						Tesla boss Elon Musk offers teenager $US5000 to stop sharing his flight data on social media
					

The Tesla boss offered a 19-year-old app developer $US5000 to take down a real-time, flight-tracking Twitter account that revealed Elon Musk's private jet movements.




					www.drive.com.au
				




Scared ?


----------



## rederob (29 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Mate, you will go to extraordinary lengths of dodgy logic to justify anything estate/establishment does with regards to covid policy.



I linked to the NZ arrangements for re-entry and it's clear the journo does not qualify for MIQ.
What is your reference?


wayneL said:


> The truth is covid policy by some governments, including New Zealand is objectively deleterious and diabolical, as evidenced by the link I provided... And most likely unlawful.



The journo in question is in no danger in Afghanistan as my linked article from her - in her own words - showed.


wayneL said:


> That's why I said that you cannot justify tyranny with tyranny.



How many threads do you posts your delusions on?


----------



## rederob (29 January 2022)

barney said:


> The article referenced by @rederob was written by Kelsey Dickeson.



It's irrelevant who wrote the article.
You can never show credible data to support your posts.
The 4 million or so mRNA vaccine doses to date will have caused many adverse reactions, but very few serious, while the death count from Pfizer's has been nil.
There is this thing about *causation* that you keep overlooking.  Either that or you keep hiding it under your conspiratorial ideas, especially relating to Fauci.


----------



## moXJO (29 January 2022)

Shops crowded today. Last week was like a shadow lockdown. School is going back next week but it didn't look like many parents/kids.

Possibly the early stages of this thing being over. Plenty of people in the pub. Scan ins seem optional in many shops.

 Need to drop these stupid masks next.


----------



## wayneL (29 January 2022)

rederob said:


> How many threads do you posts your delusions on?



It is no delusion that we are living in a dystopia for no good reason, Red.

It is no delusion who might have been first in line to join the SS, had they lived in 1930-40s Germany, either.


----------



## Humid (29 January 2022)

People's constant reference to nazi Germany is disturbing


----------



## mullokintyre (29 January 2022)

Humid said:


> Tesla boss Elon Musk offers teenager $US5000 to stop sharing his flight data on social media
> 
> 
> The Tesla boss offered a 19-year-old app developer $US5000 to take down a real-time, flight-tracking Twitter account that revealed Elon Musk's private jet movements.
> ...



Anyone can track Musks jet from the FAA ADSb data that is freely available.
In fact if you know the rego number or flight number you can track any aircraft that has mode S ADSB , which all aircraft that fly IFR or in controlled airspace must have.
You don't need an ap.
I doubt even musk would be so stupid as to turn off his transponder.
Mick


----------



## barney (29 January 2022)

rederob said:


> It's irrelevant who wrote the article.
> You can never show credible data to support your posts.
> The 4 million or so mRNA vaccine doses to date will have caused many adverse reactions, but very few serious, while the death count from Pfizer's has been nil.
> There is this thing about *causation* that you keep overlooking.  Either that or you keep hiding it under your conspiratorial ideas, especially relating to Fauci.



I'm not hiding anything Red.   I'd say to the contrary.  I want everything on the table. Interesting how Fauci, the CDC, the NIH etc etc etc have gone to great lengths to cover their tracks, change their narrative, control all medical protocols (usually to the detriment of the people of the US), and that is who the World is supposed to follow their failed narrative? (Including Oz)

Interesting that you consider Myocarditis (which will likely shorten every sufferers life substantially), not serious?

Also interesting that Pfizer and Moderna etc now warn that it is a side effect of their vaccines, yet still recommend getting jabbed

Interesting that my previous video of Lawyer Leigh Dundas shows that the data on Myocarditis has been "doctored" by the DOD

Anyone seeing an agenda here or is it just me? (rhetorical of course)

Peter McCullough briefly on both Causation and Myocarditis

ps Please don't play the man again with Dr McCullough because unless you are a one of the most peer reviewed medical practitioners in the World like he is, there is a potential to look unreasonably biased.


----------



## moXJO (29 January 2022)

rederob said:


> The 4 million or so mRNA vaccine doses to date will have caused many adverse reactions, but very few serious, while the death count from Pfizer's has been nil.



Are you talking in the sense of it's hard to prove the heart attacks are caused by the vaccine shortly after its administered?

They seem to do opposite to the covid death figures (where you can die from something else but be classed as a covid death).

 Vaccination deaths seems to be you died from something else and just happened to have the vaccination and developed myocarditis from it. But you totally died from something else.
I recall some recent deaths in NZ.


----------



## rederob (30 January 2022)

barney said:


> I'm not hiding anything Red.   I'd say to the contrary.  I want everything on the table. Interesting how Fauci, the CDC, the NIH etc etc etc have gone to great lengths to cover their tracks, change their narrative, control all medical protocols (usually to the detriment of the people of the US), and that is who the World is supposed to follow their failed narrative? (Including Oz)



That's your conspiratorial nonsense again coming to the fore.
The CDC's actions have been transparent and Fauci has many times appeared before committees to explain what has occurred and these are on the public record, as are hundreds of his media interviews.
You are choosing to believe people who have little to *no credibility*, as with your last link.


barney said:


> Interesting that you consider Myocarditis (which will likely shorten every sufferers life substantially), not serious?



Given it's a uncommon *temporary *side effect that's just a rubbish claim.


barney said:


> ps Please don't play the man again with Dr McCullough because unless you are a one of the most peer reviewed medical practitioners in the World like he is, there is a potential to look unreasonably biased.



He's *proven *to be *dishonest *throughout the pandemic so it's not me who make these claims in the first instance, eg:
"The largest nonprofit health system in Texas has *secured a temporary restraining order against cardiologist Peter A. McCullough,* MD, MPH, a COVID-19 vaccine skeptic who allegedly continued to claim an affiliation with Baylor Scott & White Health...."​​You should consider linking to mainstream medical science for your views rather than liars you keep quoting from.


----------



## IFocus (30 January 2022)

Humid said:


> People's constant reference to nazi Germany is disturbing





Its called "Projection"


----------



## wayneL (30 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> Its called "Projection"



Yep, Hitler was actually really into liberty and eschewed the Gesuntheitspass.

Seriously man!


----------



## rederob (30 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Are you talking in the sense of it's hard to prove the heart attacks are caused by the vaccine shortly after its administered?



No, and the symptoms are usually inflamation rather than heart attack, and these *side effects* usually go away without permanent complications.


moXJO said:


> They seem to do opposite to the covid death figures (where you can die from something else but be classed as a covid death).
> Vaccination deaths seems to be you died from something else and just happened to have the vaccination and developed myocarditis from it. But you totally died from something else.



Correct:  a covid death can be recorded even if the person's *principal cause* of death was something else, as the metric includes presence of disease as a potential contributor.
Australia's early AZ-linked vaccination deaths were confirmed through causation studies that ruled out the potential for other factors to have been contributory.  From memory causation was indeterminate for a several AZ-linked deaths and this fed the media with headlines that gave rise to early vaccination hesitancy that mostly went away once Pfizer became available.  I can say that from personal experience as all our family members waited for Pfizer, and today we get our boosters.


----------



## rederob (30 January 2022)

Humid said:


> People's constant reference to nazi Germany is disturbing



I am trying not to feed the seagulls so that I can enjoy my visits to Cicerellos.


----------



## sptrawler (30 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> Its called "Projection"



True, and has been used to incorrectly, to stereotype anyone considered a right wing.  👍


----------



## Humid (30 January 2022)

rederob said:


> I am trying not to feed the seagulls so that I can enjoy my visits to Cicerellos.



I prefer Kailis myself


----------



## DB008 (30 January 2022)

Finally, someone who has taken a step back and done a take 5 on the whole situation.

Maybe the QLD CHO should watch this!


Tide turns | Masking Kids in School | Rates of Adverse Events Post Vax in ppl with Nat Immunity​
​



The masks don't work (who has access/supply to a new N95 mask every few days?)
QR Check-In is dead in the water. No one uses it anymore in QLD.
Your all getting Omicron one way or another, from a vaxed or unvaxed person, makes no difference
Omicron seems to be sore throat, runs, aching joints for a few days, that's it (from personal accounts)
We are on the way to a, "3 jabs to be considered vaccinated" stance. If your under 50, no underlying health issues have had 1 or 2 jabs and also Covid-19, is it worth getting the next jab? I don't think so if you've had Covid-19. Next it will be you need 4 jabs to be considered vaccinated. Where does it end? 10 jabs?


----------



## IFocus (30 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> True, and has been used to incorrectly, to stereotype anyone considered a right wing.  👍





Yeah nah see it all the time not limited to one side or the other I know Wayne uses phases often tongue in cheek but it is concerning when extremes that really are not relevant are the go to reference.

TBH it often invalidates the point.


----------



## wayneL (30 January 2022)

IFocus said:


> Yeah nah see it all the time not limited to one side or the other I know Wayne uses phases often tongue in cheek but it is concerning when extremes that really are not relevant are the go to reference.
> 
> TBH it often invalidates the point.



For that criticism to be valid, others should lay off the ad hom then. 

But as a point of order, I really am concerned about the rapidly escalating authoritarianism, and those that support it. 

Nazism may seem overly totemic, but look at the trajectory.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> For that criticism to be valid, others should lay off the ad hom then.
> 
> But as a point of order, I really am concerned about the rapidly escalating authoritarianism, and those that support it.
> 
> Nazism may seem overly totemic, but look at the trajectory.




Nazism was a way of life, whatever 'restrictions' we have had lately is to overcome a temporary emergency.

That's not to say mistakes haven't been made, some have been on the side of too little restriction, others on the side of too much, like not letting citizens back in, but if you have medical experts who are there to give medical advice then why wouldn't you take it ?

Let's face it, unnecessary restrictions are political poison, but Perrotet let it rip and now we have hospitals full and the death rate rising. Either way, we will decide at the next election(s) who we think was right.


----------



## moXJO (30 January 2022)

Wait... Are you lefties arguing against the use of "Hitler" and "Nazis" accusations 

Oh I'm dusting off the memes now


----------



## Humid (30 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Wait... Are you lefties arguing against the use of "Hitler" and "Nazis" accusations
> 
> Oh I'm dusting off the memes now



Well he's about the same height.....the failed jockey bloke


----------



## wayneL (30 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Nazism was a way of life, whatever 'restrictions' we have had lately is to overcome a temporary emergency.
> 
> That's not to say mistakes haven't been made, some have been on the side of too little restriction, others on the side of too much, like not letting citizens back in, but if you have medical experts who are there to give medical advice then why wouldn't you take it ?
> 
> Let's face it, unnecessary restrictions are political poison, but Perrotet let it rip and now we have hospitals full and the death rate rising. Either way, we will decide at the next election(s) who we think was right.



The excesses of Nazism didn't happen all of the sudden, they happened over years.

In my state, Jan 31st marks a new escalation in totalitarian authoritarianism. Think MaoClown will stop there? I don't.

I would like you to listen to the Gigi Foster vid I posted. In it, she very carefully highlights why everything has been a massive overeaction and why eventually these people will possibly face criminal charges.

Nuremberg 2.0 also possibility.


----------



## wayneL (30 January 2022)

moXJO said:


> Wait... Are you lefties arguing against the use of "Hitler" and "Nazis" accusations
> 
> Oh I'm dusting off the memes now



The left latest, in response to the Canadian truckers


----------



## barney (30 January 2022)

rederob said:


> That's your conspiratorial nonsense again coming to the fore.
> You are choosing to believe people who have little to *no credibility*, as with your last link.
> Given it's a uncommon *temporary *side effect that's just a rubbish claim.




Firstly, I appreciate the time you spent on the post.

I still disagree with many of your conclusions however.

It looks like we will never agree on much of this covid related stuff, but that's no big deal of course.

Just on myocarditis:  The incidence has consistently risen, with the second dose for young men proving more "dangerous" than the first

I'm a bit concerned on what the 3rd dose statistics might end up showing in a few months time? 

And then a proposed 4th (Omicron specific) jab.   I just don't like the thought of that particularly for the young males.

I think you might be underestimating the potential harm it causes but again, we disagree on that.

If we play only the statistics, a recent report suggested a substantial increase, but this report was on data up till around August 2021 I think

We have a lot more data to assess to get to current stats so I can't say what they may be (hopefully better than indicated)

Obviously on a % per thousand, mathematicians might suggest the risk is still low ( I accept that statistically that is a fair comment at this stage), but any young men who have had a severe reaction and permanent heart damage may not appreciate the stats.


----------



## mullokintyre (30 January 2022)

So I wonder what is the current health data that says its  more likely you will either catch or spread COVID  because you buy alcohol with your groceries??
Mick


----------



## The Triangle (30 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> View attachment 136800
> 
> So I wonder what is the current health data that says its  more likely you will either catch or spread COVID  because you buy alcohol with your groceries??
> Mick



Don't ask questions.  

Trust the experts.  
Trust the science.


----------



## macca (30 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> View attachment 136800
> 
> So I wonder what is the current health data that says its  more likely you will either catch or spread COVID  because you buy alcohol with your groceries??
> Mick




Given that obesity is recognised as a Covid comorbidity I assume people will have to be double vaxed and boosted before buying any food that is not recommended by dieticians


----------



## Humid (30 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> View attachment 136800
> 
> So I wonder what is the current health data that says its  more likely you will either catch or spread COVID  because you buy alcohol with your groceries??
> Mick



Im sure wayno has the figures


----------



## rederob (30 January 2022)

barney said:


> I still disagree with many of your conclusions however.



They are not my conclusions as my links provided evidence of gross dishonesty, yet you refuse to acknowledge this as the case.  Why do you believe a proven liar?


barney said:


> Just on myocarditis:  The incidence has consistently risen, with the second dose for young men proving more "dangerous" than the first
> .....
> If we play only the statistics, a recent report suggested a substantial increase, but this report was on data up till around August 2021 I think
> 
> ...



I note your poorly written extract from the Israeli News website on myocarditis.
Contradictory to your  initial claim, second doses are *not more dangerous* than the first, as they are just more prevalent.
Next, until second dose vaccination data became available, the prevalence of myocarditis was very close to normal distribution profiles. However, second doses showed a significant case rise for males, and this became more and more obvious as vaccines became progressively available to younger age groups.
You should read/quote from *actual studies* rather than continuing to use second hand material as my link is the real McCoy and shows this in relation to symptoms:





In the real world - without covid - we would expect an annual number of deaths from myocarditis in America in the 50 - 100 range and the average age to be mid forties (and mostly male).  Contrast this with the 2 possible deaths (so far unconfirmed) from vaccination.


----------



## barney (30 January 2022)

rederob said:


> They are not my conclusions as my links provided evidence of gross dishonesty, yet you refuse to acknowledge this as the case.  Why do you believe a proven liar?




If people decide to determine Peter McCullough and Senator Ron Johnson are liars based on* fact checkers and journalists*, that is their prerogative. 

Personally, I'll take 100 McCullough's over 1 Fauci everyday of the week!



ps   *97.9%* of cases in the* JAMA* report showed abnormally* high troponin levels*  

Not a great baseline for the potential ongoing health of those patients I'd suggest, especially given they are all *under 30 years old*.

Similarly concerning, the *C*ardiac *M*agnetic *R*esonance Imaging results .. Showing *223* of the initial 826 patients with *acute myocarditis * 


Now maybe you are right Red, and the myocarditis levels will prove to be within normal levels this year? 

The proximity of the vaccinations/myocarditis relative to this particular age group does raise suspicions though 

The CDC seems totally comfortable giving the vaccines to young people so maybe I'm being overly concerned  

Time will tell of course, but given anyone suffering a mild case of myocarditis is suggested to *not* do any serious/strenuous sport for *3-6 months* I believe?  

That is something I would call serious for any young person.


----------



## rederob (30 January 2022)

barney said:


> If people decide to determine Peter McCullough and Senator Ron Johnson are liars based on* fact checkers and journalists*, that is their prerogative.
> 
> Personally, I'll take 100 McCullough's over 1 Fauci everyday of the week!



*Medical professionals call him a liar*, so you are deluding yourself.  I could provide dozens of links to his lies and distortions going back to 2020 but I can see you will not be swayed by facts nor data.  You are just like all the conspiracy theorists who post.


barney said:


> That is something I would call serious for any young person.



The clinical data shows most vaccine cases are *temporary *and atypical, with serious illness at levels below one in ten million, and deaths fewer than one in a hundred million.  Peanuts are much more dangerous!
Try to absorb the data and stop relying on fruitcakes for your poorly based beliefs.


----------



## barney (31 January 2022)

rederob said:


> *Medical professionals call him a liar*, so you are deluding yourself.    Peanuts are much more dangerous!
> Try to absorb the data and stop relying on fruitcakes for your poorly based beliefs.




You are a very impolite person at time Red

Just to confirm; 

I am deluded 

Peter McCullough is liar 

I am unable to absorb data efficiently 

And my belief bases are poor because i use "loonies" to help me work out what I think is correct 


Lol, All sounds pretty fair really


----------



## barney (31 January 2022)

rederob said:


> *Medical professionals call him a liar*,




On a slightly more serious note than my previous post

Medical professional calling out other medical professionals is pretty common practice particularly in the US as we know. 

Personally I'd love to see the MP's you refer to, take on Dr Mac in a public discussion where these assertions can be confronted


I know he said early in the Pandemic that once you've had Covid, you can't get it again.  New data obviously shows that has changed

Other than that, I only see other MP's who "disagree" with his interpretations of the data.  Blatant lying I'm interested to see.



Interestingly, Dr Mac was one of the first Doctors to come up with a working early treatment for Covid  

Since then, his main "beef" with the CDC/FDA etc has generally been the lack of* SAFETY DATA *on all things related to covid.

His stance on the *"lack of safety"* has cost him a great deal. It seems odd that a man with his obvious credentials would risk so much, unless he genuinely believes there are real safety issues. (Disregarding he may be a loonie of course! )


----------



## rederob (31 January 2022)

barney said:


> On a slightly more serious note than my previous post
> 
> Medical professional calling out other medical professionals is pretty common practice particularly in the US as we know.
> 
> ...



At no point have you understood the data, and you repeatedly link to junk.
You are no different to @DB008 who keeps posting about the US election being stolen from Trump despite there being no credible evidence.
The early treatment of covid you referenced is a scam.  There is zero data showing the treatment works.  We have covered this ground so many times in this thread but again I realise you believe anything and don't require evidence.
On the other hand there are proven treatments available and in everyday use, rendering your posts somewhat meaningless.
In relation to *safety *data, your claim is absurd.  Have you actually looked for what's available or do you keep repeating things without checking?
You are associating yourself with an equivalent of the flat earth society and seem happy about it.
I don't care to change your mind, but just point out that if you post rubbish I will call it out as such.


----------



## sptrawler (31 January 2022)

So the media a couple of months ago showing we were all doomed, ambulances ramping in caravan parks, because the hospital will run out of corridors and broom closets to put people, didn't eventuate. Code Brown, code Brown,  Oh well wait for the next headline, stand down.
Also good to see Victoria's new laws working, which give the health minister the authority rather than the chief medical officer, are working smoothly. 🤣 









						COVID hospital case peak may have passed, Sutton tells MPs
					

The Chief Health Officer faced testy questioning from the new pandemic declaration accountability and oversight committee on Monday.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
Chief Health Officer Brett Sutton believes the number of Victorians in hospital with COVID-19 may have already peaked, bettering caseload modelling by half in the weeks after a statewide “code brown” was declared.
Professor Sutton faced testy questioning from the new pandemic declaration accountability and oversight committee on Monday when explaining the way binding orders relating to the pandemic are now made.

The new legislation transferred the power to make rules during a pandemic from the chief health officer to the health minister of the day.

Professor Sutton, who provides health advice to help form the basis of Health Minister Martin Foley’s decisions, said he had advised Mr Foley he had no view on whether it was safe for crowd capacity at the Australian Open to be lifted from 65 to 80 per cent in time for the tennis finals.
“I had a request for a public health view and I provided no recommendation for or against. I said it was primarily a matter really of social licence and social considerations as a really significant public event,” he said


----------



## wayneL (31 January 2022)

Meanwhile.....









						ATAGI ‘to change fully vaxxed definition’
					

Authorities in Australia are considering giving a fourth Covid vaccine dose to certain people, while the definition of “fully vaccinated” could soon change.




					www.news.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (31 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Meanwhile.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't worry, it will soon be a brown suppository, so that the authorities will now you are full of it. 😂
The missus and I aren't having any booster, until it is absolutely required to go on overseas holiday, the way it is going there will be a booster every three weeks. 🤪


----------



## barney (31 January 2022)

rederob said:


> On the other hand there are proven treatments available and in everyday use, rendering your posts somewhat meaningless.




Alrighty then.  

Thanks for all the "compliments" yet again Red.  You are indeed a class act!  


I'll try and refrain from irritating you further as there are only so many insults I can handle in a 24 hour period 


Just so we can all be equally educated by your research,

Please describe to all and sundry your preferred "early treatment" protocol, 

Or even just plain "treatment" protocols for that matter, that you would recommend everyone should partake in

Either as a prophylaxis, or as an immediate/early treatment post diagnosis, based on your research and approval?

And perhaps tell us who devised or initiated said treatments that are now proven, and apparently far more effective than McCullough's "very" early treatments that you consider of little value?


----------



## barney (31 January 2022)

wayneL said:


> Meanwhile.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




How else can they maintain the *"pandemic of the unvaccinated"* mantra.

Once the 3rd and 4th boosted victims continue to contract covid at ever increasing rates

The mantra will be what I wonder?

Of the* 50* patients in the ICU, *47 were unvaccinated*.  

*Translation*: They were triple boosted but were a week late in getting their 4th booster!

Too cynical??   Yeah, probably, but I feel like this guy  

I'm surprised there hasn't been more main stream media comment (choke)  on the connection between the periods of high vaccine rollouts and the corresponding increase in cases.  Pure coincidence of course.


----------



## barney (31 January 2022)

Quick reminder for all the conspiracy theorists (I am one apparently) .... Printed back in September 2021

*For those who don't like to read all the details:

Israel* study showed a drop in efficacy (post 2nd jab) of the Pfizer vax from *96% down to 39%*

And, a *rise* in hospitalization and deaths in the *5 month period from January to May 2021

From 9% to 15%  *amongst the* "fully vaccinated"*



Even when the* CDC* are forced to admit the truth, they still try and hide it with cover up 

I guess they figure that most people don't read past the headlines 

Essentially they admit (back in September) the vaccines were failing miserably compared to what they had been projecting

4 months later I wonder what those percentages are now?


It was a simple fix of course  .... *Get more "vaccinated"*  



Headline malfunction

The headline said this:








*The conclusions (part of, below) were strangely juxtaposed to the headline:*


----------



## sptrawler (31 January 2022)

@barney point in question, how can they keep calling it a vaccine, when you are having to have boosters every 3 months?
I mean all us people had vaccines, when were kids, but we didn't have to roll up every three months, for the rest of our lives.
Why not just call it what it is a covid shot, that covers the last strain, or maybe just include it in another one called the flu shot?

I remember when I came over from England as an 8 year old, the doctor cut my arm near the shoulder with a pen knife, to give me the small pox vaccination. All I can say is thank flck vaccinations were better then, it would have scarred my for life, having to face that every 3 months. 😂


----------



## barney (31 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @barney point in question, how can they keep calling it a vaccine, when you are having to have boosters every 3 months?




Many have asked the same question Homer  

I know I may appear to be a raving anti-vaxxer on this thread, but really, I am just a concerned citizen

And from the very outset (a zillion posts ago), my main concern has always been giving the "vaccine" to the kidz 

That stance has not and won't change

I don't mind "RED" giving me both barrels much of the time ... 

If my fears/suspicions relating to covid "conspiracies" turn out to be incorrect, I'll be happy to eat humble pie

The pie is still in the oven however


----------



## sptrawler (31 January 2022)

barney said:


> Many have asked the same question Homer
> 
> I know I may appear to be a raving anti-vaxxer on this thread, but really, I am just a concerned citizen
> 
> ...



I agree, even from the beginning they say children are least affected, but the daughter who lives with us has had to have the grandkids done, for school.
There will be a some weird $hit go on, if in 5 or so years unpredicted reactions start happening, hopefully it doesn't happen and all is good.
But in my 66 years, I've never seen any global responses like this, if it is just another bird flu.
As we said in the beginning, either they aren't telling us something, or they are using it as an excuse to give everyone in the world a shot of something. 
Even the initial strain, was only knocking off the elderly with an underlying health issue, now when the mortality rate is infinitesimal they are still filling the media with stats it is absolutely weird. IMO
I wonder if more men are dying from prostate cancer than covid, yet there isn't a massive injection into a vaccine for that.

_In 2019, there were *3,582 deaths* from prostate cancer in Australia. In 2021, it is estimated that this will decrease to 3,323. In 2021, it is estimated that a male has a 1 in 55 (or 1.8%) risk of dying from prostate cancer by the age of 85. In 2019, the age-standardised mortality rate was 25 deaths per 100,000 males.5 Jan 2022_

There you go.


----------



## Humid (1 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I agree, even from the beginning they say children are least affected, but the daughter who lives with us has had to have the grandkids done, for school.
> There will be a some weird $hit go on, if in 5 or so years unpredicted reactions start happening, hopefully it doesn't happen and all is good.
> But in my 66 years, I've never seen any global responses like this, if it is just another bird flu.
> As we said in the beginning, either they aren't telling us something, or they are using it as an excuse to give everyone in the world a shot of something.
> ...



Are school kids vaxes mandated?


----------



## sptrawler (1 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Are school kids vaxes mandated?



I don't know, just asked the daughter if she is having the boys vaxxed and she said the school asked for it, but she is deaf so whether she got the facts right or not is always questionable.
When she had the first boy with IVF, centerlink told her she would get single parent pension and family tax benefit and she had to supply her group certificate, then seven years later they tell her she owes $6k because single parent pension she had to ring in her payslip every week.
She didn't now and being deaf couldn't use the phone anyway, back in 2010 sms and my gov wasn't around, so like I said who knows the kids are vaxxed she just does anything anyone in authority says now.
She's scared not to in case it incurs a fine.


----------



## rederob (1 February 2022)

barney said:


> Please describe to all and sundry your preferred "early treatment" protocol,



If you don't know what the protocols are then look them up.
I have previously linked to them but you seem keen on a completely unproven regimen, so take it if you sick rather than getting proper medical treatment.

In relation to data, I can guarantee you have no idea what your quoted sentence means:





So why are you continuously drawing your material from anti-vaxxer's sites when you don't understand it?

For your information, the quote above was drawn from this data:




I look forward to you telling me you made a mistake, but won't hold my breath as nothing from you tells me you have a clue.
And if you don't believe me then I will post a few charts your source authors linked to that prove my point.


----------



## barney (1 February 2022)

rederob said:


> If you don't know what the protocols are then look them up.




I didn't save your previous link to protocols and can't remember where to find it.

Please re-post it or post what you consider a suitable prophylaxes protocol; I'm interested in comparing it to Dr. McCullough's early treatment suggestion which you state is "useless"?


Just to be clear, I posted the link in my previous post so *everyone* (including you) *COULD see the data *I was referring to so they could make up their own minds. 

 ie. *I knew* the data was from a *PRO-Vax source*; That's *WHY* I chose it; 

ie. (X2)  So there could be NO retaliation that it was doctored or from an "anti-vax" site (*even though you suggested it was*)

*For the record*, my cut and paste was from the NCBI../NIH/gov ......website (*US Government article* in other words)

I assume the chart you posted is from one of the sub-referenced page from the page I posted?

No problem.  That's fine.  I'm happy for you to post whatever fits your argument. As I say, I posted the link, I wasn't trying to hide it.  

That* WAS* the point I was trying to make

ie.  The "Headline" contradicted the real world performance of the "vaccines" 

I'll post it again (+ another paragraph)  with zero prompting from me. If people read the Findings/Interpretation and think the vaccines are doing well, and there is no possible correlation between the roll outs and actual cases, fine. I see it differently.


----------



## barney (1 February 2022)

rederob said:


> If you don't know what the protocols are then look them up.
> I have previously linked to them but you seem keen on a completely unproven regimen, so take it if you sick rather than getting proper medical treatment.




Ok, So is this the Protocol (or something similar) you meant, taken from the American Journal of Medicine? (Minus Budesonide which has now been added I believe?)


----------



## rederob (1 February 2022)

barney said:


> Just to be clear, I posted the link in my previous post so *everyone* (including you) *COULD see the data *I was referring to so they could make up their own minds.



I know *why *you posted the link, but the problem is that you did not understand it.  If you did then you would not have posted it, and that's why I challenged you on the data.  I note your reply omitted an explanation of the highlighted section.  Here's what the same data showed when unvaccinated persons were included:




Your point was that:


barney said:


> The "Headline" contradicted the real world performance of the "vaccines"



but the *article *was about measures preventing infection, noting that Delta (and the possibility of future variant) breakthroughs meant *case counts*  were similar for vaccinated and unvaccinated.

I know you thought you were not trying to hide anything because you didn't know what you were talking about.


----------



## wayneL (1 February 2022)

Why Denmark is dropping all restrictions (hint: it's nothing to do with politics)


----------



## DB008 (1 February 2022)




----------



## noirua (1 February 2022)

Deaths Due to Omicron Higher Than From Delta
					

This week the nation recorded a seven-day average of 2,200 daily coronavirus-related deaths.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## sptrawler (1 February 2022)

Hold onto your hats, here comes the next one.
But the good news is, double dipped tim tams work as well as the vaccine, in combating it. 😂 








						Omicron subvariant 'more infectious' and can infect vaccinated, study finds
					

Researchers in Denmark – where the strain is now dominant – have giving some worrying news about the so-called 'son of Omicron'.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



A study has found the Omicron subvariant — dubbed 'son of Omicron' — is more infectious and more able to infect vaccinated people.
The Danish study found the BA.2 subvariant, which has quickly spread in Denmark, is more transmissible than the more common BA.1, infecting all groups regardless of sex, age, household size and vaccination status.

The study analysed Covid-19 infections in more than 8,500 Danish households between December and January, and found that people infected with the BA.2 variant were 33 per cent more likely to infect others compared to those infected with BA.1.


----------



## moXJO (1 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Are school kids vaxes mandated?



I don't think they are at this stage for under 11. Nor do I believe they should be.


----------



## moXJO (1 February 2022)

Know a large group of unvaxed (50 or so, ages 30-60) that have basically all caught the virus by now. Majority have had the same symptoms as vaxxed. 2-3 days of bad symptoms and about a week recovery time after those 3 days. 

However the guy I usually talk to who was very anti vax caught it worse then usual. He's been out for roughly two weeks with symptoms. No hospitalisation though. Mainly due to the fatigue. 

After Omicron you should have a basic idea of if you get it more seriously or not. Probably better targeting at risk groups rather then everyone. Mandates are stupid for a vax that's not doing a lot.

 All these rapid tests to everyone is a fking waste of taxpayers money and time. It imo caters to uneducated fear driven  hypochondriacs. Keep it for frontline services. 

NSW seems past the peak and initial fear cycle.


----------



## macca (1 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Know a large group of unvaxed (50 or so, ages 30-60) that have basically all caught the virus by now. Majority have had the same symptoms as vaxxed. 2-3 days of bad symptoms and about a week recovery time after those 3 days.
> 
> However the guy I usually talk to who was very anti vax caught it worse then usual. He's been out for roughly two weeks with symptoms. No hospitalisation though. Mainly due to the fatigue.
> 
> ...




True, yet in spite of the fact that over 100k people have had Omicron as well as two vaccines, which seems very little difference to the healthy folk, they still expect people to get Another jab.

People around here are saying I have had Covid, I am now immune F@#$ off


----------



## mullokintyre (1 February 2022)

macca said:


> True, yet in spite of the fact that over 100k people have had Omicron as well as two vaccines, which seems very little difference to the healthy folk, they still expect people to get Another jab.
> 
> People around here are saying I have had Covid, I am now immune F@#$ off



Interesting response,  one of the statistics that are missing is the number of breakthrough cases, i.e. where someone has caught covid a second time.
Its obvious from the recent stats that you can still get covid despite your vax status, though it seems to lessen the  severity of the illness..
Maybe these folks are correct, unfortunately we will be unlikely to find a definitive answer.
Mick


----------



## barney (1 February 2022)

rederob said:


> I know you thought you were not trying to hide anything because you didn't know what you were talking about.




Ouch (again) 

Nah, fair enough Red. If I present data incorrectly, I would expect/want to be corrected.

To be fair though, the point I was trying to establish in my recent posts was questioning whether covid cases are rising in close proximity to increased vaccination rates, and not to do with hospitalization/death rate, but I take your point re the chart.

In fact I was having a similar discussion with a friend who continues to badger me to get vaccinated based around similar stats to what your chart suggests. I admitted to him that the stats from our medical authorities indicate that the vaccinated are less likely to get "severe" covid. That's what the data says, I agree.

As I suggested to him; if that were in fact not the case, there would be a plethora of law suits with "please explain"  Even accepting those stats, I'm obviously still not a fan of the mRNA concept.


----------



## rederob (1 February 2022)

barney said:


> Nah, fair enough Red. If I present data incorrectly, I would expect/want to be corrected.



Do you actually know why the highlighted data was meaningless?
One reason is due to the whole article being based on an ecological fallacy.
Can you tell me the other?


barney said:


> To be fair though, the point I was trying to establish in my recent posts was questioning whether covid cases are rising in close proximity to increased vaccination rates, and not to do with hospitalization/death rate, but I take your point re the chart.



There was a time in 2020 where vaccinations actually provided a reasonable level of immunity from infection - aka *cases *- and although BA.1 and BA.2 variants are highly effective infectious vaccinations still make a meaningful (and significant) difference to hospitalisations and death in particular:










barney said:


> As I suggested to him; if that were in fact not the case, there would be a plethora of law suits with "please explain"  Even accepting those stats, I'm obviously still not a fan of the mRNA concept.



Nor am I.  But we never really had many other options and still don't, despite *10* being approved by the WHO.


----------



## barney (1 February 2022)

rederob said:


> Do you actually know why the highlighted data was meaningless?
> One reason is due to the whole article being based on an ecological fallacy.
> Can you tell me the other?




Ok, I think we just stepped past a "blockage" in the system, and I appreciate the introduction to "ecological fallacy"

I may be incorrect, but would "the other" possibly be "Reductionism"?

Obviously I am not University educated, but am certainly interested in such philosophical constructs.

I know we have disagreed on many aspects of "covid" information, but I will definitely try to put my future points of view forward,

With perhaps a bit more "substance", and less "opinion"

And I am happy to be "fact-checked" by yourself or whoever ... (transparency is important)



If I could add a little "teaser" (just to keep suitable friction in play), *lol *

Do you really believe Tony Fauci is "squeaky clean"  and that Doctors like Peter McCullough are the "bad guys"


I again reference Dr Mac. and your suggestion that his "early treatment" protocol for Covid was "useless"

Without any intention to try and bait or humiliate;    My above referenced "Early Treatment" protocol

Printed in the *American Journal of Medicine *

Was *headlined *by Dr. Peter McCullough.  

This chap is not a quack or charlatan.  He is a dedicated physician trying to help his patients

Any number of videos online highlights his passion for effective "doctoring"

If you still disagree, fair enough, but I think many people have done him a massive disservice, and this seems very unfortunate. 

Cheers.


----------



## basilio (1 February 2022)

There is a horrific story at the moment around anti vaxxers  terrorising a  Queensland Doctor under the totally false assumption that two young girls dies after being vaxxed in his clinic.

It comes after another recent Facebok post which describred in excruciiating detail the tragic death of beautiful seven year old boy after being vaccinated.* It just never happened.  Another total, vicious lie.*

‘Utter fear’: Gold Coast GP receives death threats from ‘anti-vaxxers’ after false claim of child vaccine deaths​Police investigate threats after Facebook posts claiming two girls died in waiting room incited ‘widespread panic’ in community

*Vaccine rollout and rates tracker; Cases and data tracker*
*Get our free news app; get our morning email briefing*






Dr Wilson Chin pulled his GP clinic out of the vaccine rollout after Facebook posts falsely claimed two girls died after being vaccinated and his staff received death threats. Photograph: Carolyn Kaster/AP

Caitlin Cassidy
Tue 1 Feb 2022 18.09 AEDT
Last modified on Tue 1 Feb 2022 19.35 AEDT


A Gold Coast doctor has been subjected to death threats and abuse and is living in “utter fear” of anti-vaxxers thanks to false reports that two children died in his clinic after being administered the Pfizer vaccine.
The Pacific Pines GP, Dr Wilson Chin, said “widespread panic” swept through his community when false reports spread online that the two children had died in his clinic.

The girls suffered what Chin described as a “normal” fainting episode while under observation at the clinic a fortnight ago and have since recovered.

But a post to a Facebook page purporting to be a “personal eyewitness account” wrongly claimed the girls had suffered “violent convulsions” and later died in the waiting room.

Another Facebook user posted false information describing the girls as “unresponsive when ambos got there” and encouraging others to share the post.

The backlash ultimately forced the clinic to pull out of the vaccine rollout of five to 11-year-olds after Chin and his colleagues received death threats, which have been reported to police.








						‘Utter fear’: Gold Coast GP receives death threats from ‘anti-vaxxers’ after false claim of child vaccine deaths
					

Police investigate threats after Facebook posts claiming two girls died in waiting room incited ‘widespread panic’ in community




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## DB008 (1 February 2022)

*Johns Hopkins University*​
Meta-analysis by Hopkins University concludes that "lockdowns have had little to no public health effects, while they have imposed enormous economic and social costs."​​Lockdown policies are ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy.​​Furthermore, "studies looking at specific NPIs (lockdown vs. no lockdown, facemasks, closing non-essential businesses, border closures, school closures, and limiting gatherings) also find no broad-based evidence of noticeable effects on COVID-19 mortality."​







https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/f...ffects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf


.​


----------



## DB008 (1 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> In cell cultures for FS in concentrations that will kill you if it was in your body in a LAB. Jeez. In real life, not very effective. This was published May 2020, old news, numerous studies have occured since then! Anyone know experiments in a dish don't always work in real life as any biotech investor will tell you.
> 
> Also there are now better more highly effective treatments now. Anyone taking this needs his head read.




I still need my head read, as does most of Japan now l guess...



Ivermectin shows ‘antiviral effect’ against COVID, Japanese company says​
TOKYO, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Japanese trading and pharmaceuticals company Kowa Co Ltd on Monday said that anti-parasite drug ivermectin showed an "antiviral effect" against Omicron and other coronavirus variants in joint non-clinical research.​​The company, which has been working with Tokyo's Kitasato University on testing the drug as a potential treatment for COVID-19, did not provide further details. The original Reuters story misstated that ivermectin was "effective" against Omicron in Phase III clinical trials, which are conducted in humans.​​Clinical trials are ongoing, but promotion of ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment has generated controversy.​​Prominent vaccine sceptic Joe Rogan, whose podcast on Spotify has prompted protests by singers Joni Mitchell and Neil Young, has long stirred controversy with his views on the pandemic, government mandates and COVID-19 vaccines.​​Rogan has questioned the need for vaccines and said he used ivermectin.​​The drug is not approved for treatment of COVID-19 in Japan, and the U.S. Food & Drug Administration, the World Health Organization, the EU drug regulator and Merck (MRK.N), which makes the drug, have warned against its use because of a lack of scientific evidence that it has therapeutic effect.​​In guidance on its website dated September 2021, the FDA noted growing interest in the drug for preventing or treating COVID-19 in humans but said it had received multiple reports of patients who had required medical attention, including hospitalisation, after self-medicating with it.​​The use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19 is currently being investigated in a UK trial run by the University of Oxford. The researchers said on Monday that it was still under way and they did not want to comment further until they have results to report.​​Many potential COVID-19 treatments that showed promise in test tubes, including the antimalarial hydroxychloroquine promoted by former U.S. President Donald Trump, ultimately failed to show benefit for COVID-19 patients once studied in clinical trials.​​
https://www.reuters.com/business/he...e-against-omicron-phase-iii-trial-2022-01-31/​

.


----------



## Knobby22 (1 February 2022)

DB008 said:


> I still need my head read, as does most of Japan now l guess...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good article. 

Hydroxychloroquine, or rather its touters, ended up effectively killing many Americans due to the fact it didn't work. 

It is strange how some people when drowning metaphorically can be offered an oar to cling onto but would rather grasp at straws.

We know Ivermectin has an anti viral effect but to be useful you need to take large doses that the body can't tolerate and causes large side effects. You end up in hospital as the article mentions. We have seen the studies and its not very effective. Much better alternatives that are proven.


----------



## Knobby22 (1 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Good article.
> 
> Hydroxychloroquine, or rather its touters, ended up effectively killing many Americans due to the fact it didn't work.
> 
> ...



Oxford Trial on hold and similar trials cancelled due to it not being very effective if at all. It is being dropped for better alternatives.









						A major ivermectin study has been withdrawn, so what now for the controversial drug?
					

Investigations have led to the withdrawal of a study backing ivermectin to treat COVID-19. But that’s not the last time we’ll hear about this controversial drug.




					theconversation.com
				












						University of Oxford PRINCIPLE Trial Puts Ivermectin Study Arm on Hold—Purported Supply Issues
					

TrialSite has chronicled the ivermectin studies, including the important PRINCIPLE trial led by the University of Oxford. Now, interestingly, the prestigious Anglo-academic research center has announced the ivermectin arm of the study is on “hold” due to “temporary supply issues.”



					trialsitenews.com
				




Seriously there are proven drugs that are effective. Look at them.


----------



## rederob (2 February 2022)

barney said:


> I may be incorrect, but would "the other" possibly be "Reductionism"?



No as covid data is not "complex".
The highlighted data was a statistical distortion as you got the impression that deaths rose from zero to 15% due to vaccination ineffectiveness. In fact January 2021 was the first month that anyone double vaxxed in America met the threshold to start the count from zero as prior to then nobody had been double vaxxed for more than 4 weeks.  It doesn't help that the paper was written by a geographer and his student rather than an epidemiologist and statistician!


barney said:


> I again reference Dr Mac. and your suggestion that his "early treatment" protocol for Covid was "useless"
> Without any intention to try and bait or humiliate;    My above referenced "Early Treatment" protocol
> Printed in the *American Journal of Medicine *Was *headlined *by Dr. Peter McCullough.



The *article *was in *AJM's Review *and was a *proposed *algorithm for *outpatient *treatment.  I actually think it was pretty good at the time it was published as there really were no conclusive RCTs available to offer proven effective treatments.  The problem was that hospital treatment protocols were different and have since had the benefit of clinic trial evidence to constantly improve. On the other hand McCulloch has not moved with the times and *continues to advocate unproven treatments*.  As @Knobby22 notes:


Knobby22 said:


> ... there are proven drugs that are effective. Look at them.


----------



## rederob (2 February 2022)

DB008 said:


> *Johns Hopkins University*​
> Meta-analysis by Hopkins University concludes that "lockdowns have had little to no public health effects, while they have imposed enormous economic and social costs."​​Lockdown policies are ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy.​​Furthermore, "studies looking at specific NPIs (lockdown vs. no lockdown, facemasks, closing non-essential businesses, border closures, school closures, and limiting gatherings) also find no broad-based evidence of noticeable effects on COVID-19 mortality."​
> View attachment 136891
> 
> ...



From the Study:




Of course there are no economic implications for businesses unable to open because staff cannot work, nor are there any extra hospital expenses for having every bed full, ICUs overburdened and staffing levels maxxed out .
The other thing about the study is that it only uses other studies as its basis, so if there were no studies for NZ or Australia, or China then the data gets skewed.
What an absolute crock!


----------



## basilio (2 February 2022)

rederob said:


> From the Study:
> View attachment 136904
> 
> Of course there are no economic implications for businesses unable to open because staff cannot work, nor are there any extra hospital expenses for having every bed full, ICUs overburdened and staffing levels maxxed out .
> ...



Indeed. But  hey, they have used the John Hopkins university name as gold plated respect for the analysis and have managed to get it published across scores of online and printed publications. 

If Johns Hopkins doesn't take some very quick action to analyse this study and officially disown it then they may as well become an adjunct of Prager University and such ilk.


----------



## moXJO (2 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Indeed. But  hey, they have used the John Hopkins university name as gold plated respect for the analysis and have managed to get it published across scores of online and printed publications.
> 
> If Johns Hopkins doesn't take some very quick action to analyse this study and officially disown it then they may as well become an adjunct of Prager University and such ilk.



I'm sorry but China has the strictest lockdowns around and they are still having trouble.

Remember Melbourne lockdowns during omicron?
No because it was pointless and they quickly found out that it didn't work.

Original covid yes. We didn't know what it was, or what treatments to use. But lockdowns created huge problems on there own that will last for years to come.


----------



## barney (2 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Oxford Trial on hold and similar trials cancelled due to it not being very effective if at all. It is being dropped for better alternatives.




Ivermectin unfortunately has become a bit of a political football, and at the moment there is probably little point in harping on about it whether we are pro or anti the drug.

Just for balance however, because I believe Ivermectin has not been given a fair go, and in regard to your (@Knobby22) "links" above

I think it needs to be stated, that the negative news report you linked was based on the 2020 "Elgazza" study. 

The main stream media always seem to go for this study when trying to debunk ivermectin (bear in mind the study was actually *"too" positive* so appears "enhanced")  With that in mind, even as an Ivermectin supporter, I accept that the Elgazza study looks "duplicated", and therefore *should not* be used in any meta analysis studies

Interestingly, all the meta analysis of the drug, even with the Elgazza study removed, that I've looked at, still show a positive result in favour of Ivermectin helping a large number of "patients" recover more quickly. The only study that didnt was a very poor "super small" study by anti-Ivermectin folk, but it was so obviously flawed/biased (even to my "uneducated" brain), that it could not be taken seriously. (hopefully someone can find it so we can all see how poor it was)

ps I'm not suggesting it is some wonder drug, but I think it has shown enough efficacy to be included as an early treatment option, for those that deem it (in consultation with their Doctor) worth a try. ie. Choice, not censorship.

No further ranting  on that, but I'd suggest that using the Elgazza study (One Study) as an argument to debunk Ivermectin is a weak argument at best, when there is far more data to digest as a whole?

To continue:


----------



## barney (2 February 2022)

OK, so in response to @Knobby22 recent reference to the "Oxford Study" on Ivermectin being "put on hold"  because it was shown to be *"INEFFECTIVE"*  and was dropped because *better alternatives were available?*

The "company" line is, that the study was paused due to *"SUPPLY ISSUES"*  (Their words not mine)  


*I make no assumption, but a couple of interesting points to consider:*

1)  The pharmaceutical company supplying the Oxford study *(Edinbridge Pharmaceuticals) stated* there was *NO SUPPLY ISSUES *from their end.

2)  Just as the Oxford study on Ivermectin was put on hold,  *Merck* were awarded a *$2.2 Billion* government contract on their new "covid pill"
(ps I have not fact checked the above, so if incorrect, please call me out)

Potential red flags there if true however 


If Ivermectin is of no use/value for covid treatment, we can all deal with that and get on with life

The continual push to make it into a "bad guy" when it could be taken by anybody with bugger all side effects ... just seems odd to me.


----------



## barney (2 February 2022)

rederob said:


> No as covid data is not "complex".
> I actually think it was pretty good at the time it was published as there really were no conclusive RCTs available to offer proven effective treatments.



Appreciate the information/comment Red


rederob said:


> On the other hand McCulloch has not moved with the times and *continues to advocate unproven treatments*.




I understand your point, especially since Dr Mac has become more "vaccine resistant", but it should perhaps be noted that he did update his treatment protocol to include *Budesonide* once it became obvious it was a benefit in treatment.

I believe history will prove him to be genuine even though he is not keen on the "vaccines"


----------



## Knobby22 (2 February 2022)

barney said:


> OK, so in response to @Knobby22 recent reference to the "Oxford Study" on Ivermectin being "put on hold"  because it was shown to be *"INEFFECTIVE"*  and was dropped because *better alternatives were available?*
> 
> The "company" line is, that the study was paused due to *"SUPPLY ISSUES"*  (Their words not mine)
> 
> ...



It has got to work otherwise....
Are you going to give this to someone like Glenn Wheatley when there is stuff that really works? Not if you take the Hippocratic oath. 

I reckon the supply issues is an excuse as it relates to forcing unfortunates to take the drug. I certainly would be very angry if they offered it to my mother as part of the study. All the decent results so far show any effect is marginal at best.


----------



## DB008 (2 February 2022)

​


----------



## wayneL (2 February 2022)

Pure theater


----------



## barney (2 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> It has got to work otherwise....
> Are you going to give this to someone like Glenn Wheatley when there is stuff that really works? Not if you take the Hippocratic oath.
> 
> I reckon the supply issues is an excuse as it relates to forcing unfortunates to take the drug. I certainly would be very angry if they offered it to my mother as part of the study. All the decent results so far show any effect is marginal at best.



Yeah, not sure of exactly what you are suggesting Knobby, but given I was a semi-pro muso in Sydney back "in the day", I'm certainly not happy if covid was a major part of the reason for Glen's passing.  

The facts are, he has now passed .  Was he given Ivermectin? Obviously not. So the *"stuff that really works"* did not work,??

 Had they tried Ivermectin as a last resort (perhaps as an earlier resort would have been better I'd submit), what was the actual risk, even if it proves to have no benefit? (I'd say bugger all risk with 100% potential upside)

I'd also suggest Glen had a few health issues that the main stream media are not promoting 


If you are suggesting that the curtailing of the Oxford Study on Ivermectin was initiated because giving Ivermectin was deemed to be so  "ineffective", that to give it to patients would be counter-productive? or even hurtful/or something similar??

Respectfully, that makes no logical sense given the safety profile of the drug is multiples higher than aspirin or Panadol.

I really do not understand why the world wants to discredit Ivermectin?? (Unless you are *Merck *of course)

Meta analysis indicates it helps a high percentage of people.  And even if it eventually proves to be useless, it hurts no one.


I believe there are some further current studies being done on Ivermectin. If they prove it is ineffective after rigorous assessment by "independent" assessors, I will be happy to concede, but I'm not sure we have the whole story just yet.

Again I repeat; I don't pretend Ivermectin is the holy grail of covid prevention, but the old adage of "don't cut your nose off to spite your face" rings true.

ps Cheers M8 ... Post not meant to be personal at all


----------



## wayneL (2 February 2022)

'Straya


----------



## UMike (3 February 2022)

Really are ashamed of the mob over reaction to all of this.


----------



## Humid (3 February 2022)

Barney you left your shoes here


----------



## rederob (3 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> 'Straya




Typical of the fools who use twitter.
The security guards were just doing their jobs.
Hospitals have rules that aim to keep people safe from infection.
They might seem harsh in some circumstances but they are there for a reason.
Unless this woman has the power to resurrect the dead she should have known better.


----------



## wayneL (3 February 2022)

'Straya... unbelievable.


----------



## Knobby22 (3 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> 'Straya... unbelievable.




Yea, spreads the virus within the hospital to all the kids in the cancer ward and in emergency.  Extremely selfish and uncaring.
Go to a local doctor.


----------



## mullokintyre (3 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, spreads the virus within the hospital to all the kids in the cancer ward and in emergency.  Extremely selfish and uncaring.
> Go to a local doctor.



Logical fallacy traced with emotional inconsistencies.
1. How would the person come into contact with the kids in cancer ward unless it was due to poor practices on the part of the hospital.
2. She said she had no symptoms of the virus, so we do not know if she or her kids had the virus to spread to the kids in the cancer ward and emergency.  a more sensible approach would be to get tall attendees  to take a RAT test regardless of their vaccine status.
3. If she was vaccinated and asymptomatic , would you blame her if she had "spread the disease to the kids in the cancer ward"?
The vaccine protects the person  who gets the vaccine from getting the serious repercussions of the disease.
As to its efficacy in stopping the spread to others, I would suggest that the current outbreaks of omicron when we have had over 80% of people vaxed shows its questionable to say the least.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (3 February 2022)

Interesting article in the Courier mail, obviously omicron doesn't affect the patient as bad as earlier strains:

Secret Covid transmission: Shocking stats as nine deaths, 8k cases recorded​Queensland has recorded 8643 Covid-19 cases and nine more deaths, as a Gold Coast study has revealed just how widespread unknown community transmission is, *with figures showing nine out of 10 positive cases didn’t even know they had the virus.*


----------



## Humid (3 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Logical fallacy traced with emotional inconsistencies.
> 1. How would the person come into contact with the kids in cancer ward unless it was due to poor practices on the part of the hospital.
> 2. She said she had no symptoms of the virus, so we do not know if she or her kids had the virus to spread to the kids in the cancer ward and emergency.  a more sensible approach would be to get tall attendees  to take a RAT test regardless of their vaccine status.
> 3. If she was vaccinated and asymptomatic , would you blame her if she had "spread the disease to the kids in the cancer ward"?
> ...



No chairman Dan or Mcstalin for Liberal governments I see....funny that


----------



## mullokintyre (3 February 2022)

Humid said:


> No chairman Dan or Mcstalin for Liberal governments I see....funny that



Sorry, you got me there, I missed the significance of your response.
Would you care to elaborate?
Micki


----------



## Humid (3 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Sorry, you got me there, I missed the significance of your response.
> Would you care to elaborate?
> Micki



Considering the source of the story and the fact that Tassie is Liberal there's no mention of their tyrannical leader


----------



## moXJO (3 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yea, spreads the virus within the hospital to all the kids in the cancer ward and in emergency.  Extremely selfish and uncaring.
> Go to a local doctor.



So do vaccinated though?


----------



## wayneL (3 February 2022)

Neither @rederob nor @Knobby22 response surprised me in the least.

We already know Red is a shill for the establishment and @mullokintyre and @moXJO have destroyed Knobby's argument... So 'nuff said .


----------



## barney (3 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> *with figures showing nine out of 10 positive cases didn’t even know they had the virus.*




It's actually a very interesting "point" Homer.

I asked my Sister (RN) who recently had ( and is still recovering from)  Covid, 

And with whom I had an extended "close contact" while she was very infectious .....

Given the close contact, and my recent "unusually feeling head/fog/nervy weird vibe"  which I could not explain?

Is it possible I may have had a "small bout" of covid??  without realising it?

She thought .... it seemed a possibility,  but could not know for sure of course.



Your post perhaps indicates that may be a possibility?

I would be pretty chuffed if I have been able to gain "some" resistance to the V through casual contacts with family

Similarly , I have often wondered, with regard to attaining community resistance (immunity?) to the big-C .....



If we had a "proven" or even reasonably high % early treatment regime that knocked the V on its head quickly ..


Rather than a vaccine,  why not actually "expose" people to the virus under a controlled environment 

And then immediately treat them with an appropriate  treatment to 

1) negate any serious consequences of the infection, and 

2) Possibly generate a form of herd immunity from the actual virus


Ok I know that sounds pretty simplistically unscientific, so no hate mail please 

But in reality, isn't that what a vaccine is actually supposed to achieve?

Back to my cave!


----------



## mullokintyre (4 February 2022)

barney said:


> It's actually a very interesting "point" Homer.
> 
> I asked my Sister (RN) who recently had ( and is still recovering from)  Covid,
> 
> ...



If you think you may have been exposed recently, a RAT test will possibly show that, but it has to be within ten days or so of the infection.
If its important enough for you Barney, you can get a serology test to see if you have antibodies in your blood.
If you are unvaccinated and the result comes back positive, then the only way I believe that you could have them is to have been exposed to the  virus sometime within maybe the last six months.
It can be a tad expensive, although according to The New Scientist , there has been a cheap quick test develeoped that may or may not be in production yet.


> A cheap 5-minute test can accurately determine whether you have had covid-19 in the past or determine whether you have protection from a vaccine by detecting antibodies in blood or saliva.
> When a person is infected with the coronavirus or is vaccinated against it, their immune system produces antibodies to fight the virus. These antibodies continue to be produced for at least six months, so they can be used to detect a past infection or vaccine response. Tests for coronavirus antibodies already exist, but they tend to be expensive, complicated or not very accurate.
> Feng Yan at the Hong Kong Polytechnic University and his colleagues made a cheaper, more convenient covid-19 antibody test using organic electrochemical transistors. These convert biological signals to electrical signals, and are becoming popular for detecting biological molecules like proteins and glucose.
> A drop of blood or saliva is placed on one of these transistors, which is made of gold and embedded in a small plastic strip. As coronavirus antibodies bind to it, the transistor produces electrical signals that are read by a lightweight portable meter connected via Bluetooth to a mobile phone. The whole process takes less than 5 minutes.
> ...




Heres a link to an OZ mob  clinicallabs which has a bit of explanation on it, and is pricey at 200 bucks.
If you can convince your GP to get  done for you, you could get it under medicare.
Mick


----------



## Logique2 (4 February 2022)

Historian David Starkey is hilarious on Covid lockdowns, and a variety of other topical issues, mostly from a UK perspective.
Long at 58 mins, but a searing social commentary, and very entertaining.

‘*Lockdown is the revenge of the elites’* -The Brendan O'Neill Show, 24th December 2021: https://www.spiked-online.com/podcast-episode/lockdown-is-the-revenge-of-the-elites/
_'David Starkey on the history wars, eco-alarmism and our descent into technocratic tyranny..'_


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (4 February 2022)

Just to post a scientific opinion from an expert on Covid.

It is not over and the transition to the next phase/episode of this saga is unknown. 

From The Grauniad.









						World faces ‘bumpy, difficult’ Covid transition, says senior scientist
					

‘I just don’t think you wake up on Tuesday and it’s finished,’ says former Sage adviser Sir Jeremy Farrar




					www.theguardian.com
				




A more global view from those who unlike us do not suffer the tyranny nor benefit of distance. 

gg


----------



## wayneL (4 February 2022)

A client and I were just talking and wondered:

1/ What if the beer bug was reported on like flu epidemics are reported on.

And it's corollary 2/ what if normal flu epidemics were reported on like the beer bug is reported on.


----------



## Logique2 (4 February 2022)

Indeed GG.

The Guardian says, former "_Sage adviser Sir Jeremy Farrar_" [doubtless on a good wicket and guaranteed salary as '._director of the Wellcome Trust_'] says:

".._that while he has sympathy with the disruption of education and the health and economic impacts of Covid he is concerned about the speed at, which some want to move on_.."

Move on.  Oh dear me no.  After all the salary comes in regardless. 

But not for the shop keepers.


----------



## DB008 (4 February 2022)

Prevalence and Durability of SARS-CoV-2 Antibodies Among​Unvaccinated US Adults by History of COVID-19 - JAMA Network​​
​As of December 28, 2021, approximately 27% of the US population was unvaccinated against SARS-CoV-2,1 yet the prevalence of natural immunity remains unknown. Blood donor studies may have selection bias and lack clinical information.2 Previous COVID-19 infection is a possible surrogate for natural immunity, but 1 study suggested that 36% of COVID-recovered individuals are serologic nonresponders.3 Even among individuals who develop antibodies, durability of this response beyond 6 months remains unknown. We characterized natural immunity and long-term durability among unvaccinated individuals using anti–spike antibodies, the first line of defense against SARS-CoV-2.​​​​*Results*​Of 1580 individuals invited to undergo serologic testing, 816 (52%) did so between September 24, 2021, and November 5, 2021. Participants had a mean age of 48.0 years, 421 (52%) were women, and 669 (82%) were White (Table). Fourteen percent reported routine mask use in public. Anti-RBD and anti-N antibody presence/absence were correlated (95%; Cohen κ=0.908).​​Among 295 reported COVID-confirmed participants, 293 (99%) tested positive for anti-RBD antibodies (≥250 U/mL, 44%; ≥500 U/mL, 27%; ≥1000 U/mL, 15%). A median of 8.7 (IQR, 1.9-12.9; range, 0-20) months passed since reported COVID-19 diagnosis. The median anti-RBD level among those who tested positive was 205 (IQR, 61-535) U/mL. There was no evidence of association between time after infection and antibody titer (0.8% increase [95% CI, –2.4% to 4.2%] per month, _P_ = .62) (Figure).​​Among 275 reported COVID-unconfirmed participants, 152 (55%) tested positive for anti-RBD antibodies (≥250 U/mL, 18%; ≥500 U/mL, 12%; ≥1000 U/mL, 6%). The median level among those who tested positive was 131 (IQR, 35-402) U/mL.​​Among 246 reported no-COVID participants, 11% tested positive for anti-RBD antibodies (≥250 U/mL, 2%; ≥500 U/mL, 2%; ≥1000 U/mL, 2%). The median level among those who tested positive was 82 (IQR, 19-172) U/mL.​​​*Discussion*​In this cross-sectional study of unvaccinated US adults, antibodies were detected in 99% of individuals who reported a positive COVID-19 test result, in 55% who believed they had COVID-19 but were never tested, and in 11% who believed they had never had COVID-19 infection. Anti-RBD levels were observed after a positive COVID-19 test result up to 20 months, extending previous 6-month durability data.5​​Study limitations include lack of direct neutralization assays, the fact that antibody levels alone do not directly equate to immunity,4,6 the cross-sectional study design, a convenience sample with an unknown degree of selection bias due to public recruitment, self-reported COVID-19 test results, the study population being largely White and healthy, and lack of information on breakthrough infections. Participants were given only 1 month to complete antibody testing, which may have contributed to the 52% rate among those invited to test.​​Although evidence of natural immunity in unvaccinated healthy US adults up to 20 months after confirmed COVID-19 infection is encouraging, it is unclear how these antibody levels correlate with protection against future SARS-CoV-2 infections, particularly with emerging variants. The public health implications and long-term understanding of these findings merit further consideration.​​​​

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788894

.​


----------



## The Triangle (4 February 2022)

Can we appoint this guy supreme leader of the world?   Turns out there are _some _rational logical honest Canadians - and this guy is a politician!

_"What's necessary is your freedom. What's necessary is getting your life back to normal"

“Calls for Daily government intrusion into people’s lives, skepticism regarding anything remotely positive related to COVID, this perpetual state of crisis is having a harmful impact on everyone.”_


----------



## ravishankaray (5 February 2022)

Just thought of a new slogan, or maybe look good on a T Shirt;

"To Vax or not to Vax,
Vax is the Question"


----------



## DB008 (5 February 2022)

It's time to put Covid-19 behind us and move on.

Covid-19 is so deadly that....

*Random COVID tests to be conducted after Gold Coast survey finds up to 90 per cent of positive cases don't know they have it *

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-04/qld-coronavirus-covid-pcr-tests-queensland-health-symptoms/100771540​


----------



## rederob (5 February 2022)

DB008 said:


> It's time to put Covid-19 behind us and move on.
> 
> Covid-19 is so deadly that....



Only about 6 million have died ,,,


----------



## Knobby22 (5 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> So do vaccinated though?





moXJO said:


> So do vaccinated though?



Yes. I concede that.
My youngest brother is a nurse and runs the kidney failure ward.
Those patients are obviously very scared of catching any virus.

Anti vaxxers who won't wear there masks properly, lie about having symptoms and argue with everyone about being tested etc. Are selfish. They aren't his most popular people and his one word for them is selfish.

Granted this woman may have not been like this but I am not so sure. There are ways to handle this but instead she made a video. I somehow think they were very wary of her.

I understand why medical staff are very wary of these people.
I understand that with Omicron the reasoning for the ban doesn't stack up as well but I also understand medical people wanting anti vaxxers out of their wards.


----------



## Knobby22 (5 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Neither @rederob nor @Knobby22 response surprised me in the least.
> 
> We already know Red is a shill for the establishment and @mullokintyre and @moXJO have destroyed Knobby's argument... So 'nuff said .



Yea, nice mate.


----------



## Humid (5 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes. I concede that.
> My youngest brother is a nurse and runs the kidney failure ward.
> Those patients are obviously very scared of catching any virus.
> 
> ...



Godbothering anti vaxer


----------



## rederob (5 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> We already know Red is a shill for the establishment and @mullokintyre and @moXJO have destroyed Knobby's argument... So 'nuff said .



My mother in law died in hospital during a lockdown last year. 
Neither her husband nor 5 children (which included my wife) were able to visit.
The next time they saw her was at her wake in an urn which I collected from the crematorium.
I found your post to be vulgar.


----------



## ravishankaray (5 February 2022)

Owens Gets Dr. Robert Malone to Expose Bill Gates - 'A Tiger Can't Change His Stripes'​









						Owens Gets Dr. Robert Malone to Expose Bill Gates - 'A Tiger Can't Change His Stripes'
					

During a recent appearance on The Daily Wire's "Candace," Dr. Robert Malone exposed Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates.




					www.westernjournal.com


----------



## wayneL (5 February 2022)

[]







rederob said:


> My mother in law died in hospital during a lockdown last year.
> Neither her husband nor 5 children (which included my wife) were able to visit.
> The next time they saw her was at her wake in an urn which I collected from the crematorium.
> I found your post to be vulgar.



Mate, my condolences.

But if you had been following along, you would know my *own* mother died early last year in a lock down, so probably around about the same time.

I was not allowed to see her in the 10 days before her death.

Although my condolences are heartfelt, you can't pull the sympathy card with me, Rederob.

Additionally, I don't give a flying fig what you think of me, because that's not going to change my opinion of you and what your agenda is here.


----------



## rederob (5 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Additionally, I don't give a flying fig what you think of me, because that's not going to change my opinion of you and what your agenda is here.



I comment on posts, especially where they are lies and distortions.
As a JP for over 35 years I don't have the luxury of disobeying laws even when I think they are sometimes poorly based.  
Nevertheless. in this case the woman in your linked tweet knew full well what the hospital's position was yet chose to make a big scene where there are sick and injured people in treatment and recovery.  People like her are poor examples to others and should be ashamed to act that way.
That you saw fit to post it here does not reflect well imho.


----------



## wayneL (5 February 2022)

rederob said:


> I comment on posts, especially where they are lies and distortions.
> As a JP for over 35 years I don't have the luxury of disobeying laws even when I think they are sometimes poorly based.
> Nevertheless. in this case the woman in your linked tweet knew full well what the hospital's position was yet chose to make a big scene where there are sick and injured people in treatment and recovery.  People like her are poor examples to others and should be ashamed to act that way.
> That you saw fit to post it here does not reflect well imho.



Don't care. You are extremely rude and extraordinarily prone to cognitive bias. For you to unironically expect civility is a monumental hypocrisy.


----------



## Humid (5 February 2022)

rederob said:


> I comment on posts, especially where they are lies and distortions.
> As a JP for over 35 years I don't have the luxury of disobeying laws even when I think they are sometimes poorly based.
> Nevertheless. in this case the woman in your linked tweet knew full well what the hospital's position was yet chose to make a big scene where there are sick and injured people in treatment and recovery.  People like her are poor examples to others and should be ashamed to act that way.
> That you saw fit to post it here does not reflect well imho.



Check out her Facebook page....


----------



## rederob (5 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Check out her Facebook page....



I have never used Facebook, but it was very obvious that the woman knew exactly what she was doing.
The other stupidity she indulged in was taking it out on people properly doing their job rather than going to Administration with her concern.
I seriously question the motive of people like her who think that what she did was ok in a hospital setting, and that of people who repost this sort of behaviour.  The "don't care" response I got was sheer hypocrisy.  People that don't care do not respond.


----------



## moXJO (5 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Yes. I concede that.
> My youngest brother is a nurse and runs the kidney failure ward.
> Those patients are obviously very scared of catching any virus.
> 
> ...



Yeah the fruitloop ones are a danger due to selfishness. If you want to be free of restrictions then you have to be mindful of those at risk. Anyone at risk should be targeted for boosters and the like. 

Probably see a better result focusing on a few rather than blanket coverage and wasting money. Rats tests just seem like a waste of taxpayers money for the majority as well. 


Big drop in nsw numbers. Possibly not as many testing anymore. But majority of people I have spoken to have had it.

People should know where about they land on the 'risk spectrum' after infection. Inject them and treat them.


----------



## moXJO (5 February 2022)

rederob said:


> My mother in law died in hospital during a lockdown last year.
> Neither her husband nor 5 children (which included my wife) were able to visit.
> The next time they saw her was at her wake in an urn which I collected from the crematorium.
> I found your post to be vulgar.



With Covid? 
Personally I find the government and health overreach on this bordering the line of unacceptable. 
I understand the "protocols" and why it's necessary. But the stain on mental health will last a long time for many. 

For me (as someone who is very family orientated) the above scenario would be a nightmare. 

Condolences. I hope the family finds peace with a very tragic circumstance.


----------



## DB008 (5 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Although my condolences are heartfelt, you can't pull the sympathy card with me, Rederob.




Is the poster Rederob still posting here on ASF?

I had no idea.

The best thing to do is to block trolls.

I think l blocked Rederob over a year ago and have been happy ever since. You don't see their posts, so who cares what they say, which is mostly garbage anyways


Pro tip - 










Now this is interesting.

'80% of serious COVID cases are fully vaccinated' says Ichilov hospital director​Vaccine has "no significance regarding severe illness," says Prof. Yaakov Jerris.​
Are Israeli hospitals really overloaded with unvaccinated COVID patients? According to Prof. Yaakov Jerris, director of Ichilov Hospital’s coronavirus ward, the situation is completely opposite.​
“Right now, most of our severe cases are vaccinated,” Jerris told _Channel 13 News_. “They had at least three injections. Between seventy and eighty percent of the serious cases are vaccinated. So, the vaccine has no significance regarding severe illness, which is why just twenty to twenty-five percent of our patients are unvaccinated.”​
Jerris also revealed some of the confusion in reporting cases. Speaking at a cabinet meeting on Sunday, he told ministers, “Defining a serious patient is problematic. For example, a patient with a chronic lung disease always had a low level of oxygen, but now he has a positive coronavirus test result which technically makes him a ‘serious coronavirus patient,’ but that’s not accurate. The patient is only in a difficult condition because he has a serious underlying illness.”​

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/321674​
.


----------



## DB008 (6 February 2022)

COVID case numbers are likely a lot higher than reported.​So how do you know if you've had it?​

The hidden caseload​It's widely accepted that at the peak of the Omicron outbreak in Australia, the real number of cases in the community was far higher than official data suggested. This is largely due to the move towards at-home tests — but also the shortages of them — and the significant proportion of people with mild or no symptoms.​​While there's no way to know the exact number of unrecorded cases for certain, epidemiologist Tony Blakely from the Melbourne School of Population and Global Health relies on a rule of thumb: for every person that tests positive, he estimates another four infections aren't included in the statistics.​​"The case numbers, they're a big underestimate," he says. "That's for several reasons: one, surveillance systems fell over; *two, people with mild symptoms just shrug their shoulders and say 'I can't be bothered' and don't notify*; and three, asymptomatic people, unless they're a close contact, they have no reason to test and aren't going to be found."​​The International Institute of Health Metrics and Evaluation estimates between 80-90 per cent of Omicron cases globally are asymptomatic or with very mild symptoms, based on data from South Africa and the United States.​​Professor Blakely believes the percentage in Australia is likely to be lower, possibly due to the previously low levels of natural immunity from past infections, but adds that we are "grossly underestimating" the true number of infected people in the community.​​Just this week Queensland Health released the results of a random COVID testing survey, conducted on the Gold Coast, which found up to 90 per cent of people who returned a positive PCR didn't know they had the virus.​​*"A ballpark figure, probably after this wave, about half of us will have been infected," Professor Blakely says.*​​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-06/how-to-know-if-youve-already-had-covid/100803400​
I fall into the category above.

Had a sore throat and aching joints for a day or so about 3 weeks ago. No RAT Tests available and to book Covid Test, next available appointment was 5 days away, so l just didn't do anything.

All the people who I know (and work with) that have recently had confirmed Covid-19 (PCR Test) have had very, very mild symptoms  - most likely Omicron, not Delta.

1 person l worked with (who l sit next to, 50+ year old male), sore throat for 1 day, that was it. PCR Confirmed.

It's all over now. 50% of the population has more than likely Omicron/Delta. We need to rewind the clock and go back 3 years (pre Covid-19) and just get rid of all mandates. They don't work. QR Check in dead in the water. Masks are useless against Omicron (unless you have a N95 Mask, which most of the general population doesn't have). Omicron has turned Covid into a common cold now.

We should adopt the South African model. Have Covid, feel ok? Carry on, otherwise, stay at home and recover.


.​


----------



## DB008 (7 February 2022)

Some great news.

I have been beating the drum on this.

Covid-19 is over. Time to move on. Nobody uses the check-in app anyways.
​Queensland records 19 COVID-19 deaths and 4,701 new cases as Check-in app removed for some businesses​
Queensland recorded 19 COVID-19 deaths and 4,701 new cases in the latest reporting period with the Premier announcing the Check-in app will not be required at some businesses.​​Ms Palaszczuk announced the use of the Check-in app was no longer required at places like shops and taxis, but people would still need to show their vaccination status to enter certain venues.​​Health Minister Yvette D'Ath said people visiting pubs, clubs, cafes and restaurants would still need to check in, and those who were unvaccinated would still not be allowed in.​​"So businesses such as clubs, hotels, and those venues will still operate the check-in for the purpose of confirming vaccination status and allowing us still to ensure checking of compliance with mandatory vaccination," she said.​​"For all other businesses from today immediately, they will not require a check in."​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-07/qld-coronavirus-covid19-deaths-check-in-app/100809610
​
To my WA fellow posters, your time will come. Hang in there.

.​


----------



## DB008 (7 February 2022)

.​


----------



## Humid (7 February 2022)

DB008 said:


> Some great news.
> 
> I have been beating the drum on this.
> 
> ...



My credit card bill tells me where I've been anyway


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2022)

Sounds like February 21st, is the day for everyone over East.









						Vaccinated tourists welcomed back as international border to reopen in two weeks
					

Almost two years after the government closed Australia to the world, the international border is set to reopen to those who are fully vaccinated.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2022)

Silver lining and all that, or just statistics?








						Aussie excess deaths fall over pandemic
					

Australia has recorded 4,201 deaths from COVID-19 since the pandemic began. However, it is estimated that the nation has recorded 12,881 fewer deaths from all causes over the last two years than would normally have occurred: Excess COVID-19 deaths is the difference between the total reported...




					www.macrobusiness.com.au
				



From the article:
Australia has recorded 4,201 deaths from COVID-19 since the pandemic began. However, it is estimated that the nation has recorded 12,881 fewer deaths from all causes over the last two years than would normally have occurred:




> Excess COVID-19 deaths is the difference between the total reported number of deaths since January 1, 2020 and the projected number of deaths for the same period based on previous years. It is seen as the primary measure of the effectiveness of a country’s pandemic response.
> Based on projected COVID-19 fatalities by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) at Washington University in Seattle, and Australian Bureau of Statistics fatality data from October last year, Australia is sitting on a negative excess death rate from the pandemic of about minus 496 deaths per million people.


----------



## DB008 (7 February 2022)

I read somewhere that in the next few years the general population death toll could be higher than average (and Covid-19 death toll) due to fact that lots of surgeries, check-ups and general doctors appointments have been pushed back/cancelled, which will inevitably lead to people missing cancer scans, general/elective surgeries pushed back/cancelled etc etc.


----------



## cynic (7 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Silver lining and all that, or just statistics?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd certainly expect a reduction in fatalities from vehicular and industrial accidents. But those would need to be contrasted against , increased deaths from adverse vaccine reactions, excessive alcohol consumption, suicides, domestic violence etc.

In the (somewhat unlikely) event my own circle of acquaintances, were to be seen as representative of the broader community, excess deaths would be up!

Anyhow, I am generally sceptical of quoted statisitics unless published transparently with raw data and associated assumptions/projections clearly defined.


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2022)

Looks like Canada are having trouble, with truckers unhappy with mandates.








						Ottawa mayor declares state of emergency amid paralysing anti-mandate protests
					

Due to security concerns, PM Justin Trudeau and his family left their downtown home last weekend and his location has not been disclosed.




					www.theage.com.au
				



*Ottawa:* Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson on Monday AEDT declared a state of emergency to help deal with an unprecedented 10-day occupation by protesting truckers that has shut down much of the core of the Canadian capital.
“(This) reflects the serious danger and threat to the safety and security of residents posed by the ongoing demonstrations and highlights the need for support from other jurisdictions and levels of government,” he said in a statement.


----------



## wayneL (7 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like Canada are having trouble, with truckers unhappy with mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whodathunkit? The Canucks have more balls than Aussies.

Dusting off my Canadian passport...


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Whodathunkit? The Canucks have more balls than Aussies.
> 
> Dusting off my Canadian passport...



Plenty of work for you there, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, when I first heard that I thought it was a bit rude. 😂


----------



## barney (7 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Whodathunkit? The Canucks have more balls than Aussies.
> 
> Dusting off my Canadian passport...



I listened to some of the "Truckers" speaking the other day.  Apparently they intend to stay as long as it takes to get some action from True-doh or whoever can/will make a decision.

Part of the plan of action is to "replace" the current trucker with fresh incoming truckers on a rotating basis.  I think one trucker said they have the resources to stay it out for up to 4 years!? (don't quote me, but I think that was the time frame  )

Great boost for some of the local economy/food outlets etc you would think.  

By all accounts the "protest" has been totally peaceful and the locals, including police etc have been sympathetic to the truckers stance.

Whether people agree or not, it certainly is an historic course of action


----------



## SirRumpole (8 February 2022)

Makes me wonder why we are letting tourists in with only 2 shots.









						What's the difference in protection against Omicron between 2 doses and 3 doses of vaccine?
					

Emerging evidence suggests the highly infectious Omicron variant has the ability to escape the protection two vaccine doses offer.




					theconversation.com


----------



## mullokintyre (8 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Makes me wonder why we are letting tourists in with only 2 shots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The actual wording says that tourists, like the states have said for entering some premises, must be fully vaccinated.
ATAGi and the government health bureacrats are going to change the deffinition of fully vaccinated  to include at least one booster within a certain time of arrival, and have indicated they will change it every time a new variant comes along.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (8 February 2022)

Kennedy Junior on why they're jabbing our kids


----------



## moXJO (8 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Makes me wonder why we are letting tourists in with only 2 shots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a sham that's why. 

 We are losing holidaymakers to other countries to such a degree that we may not be able to turn it around. 

Meanwhile Australians are wanting 50 jabs to become compliant. In nsw, covid  is all but over. Drop the lot and focus on at risk groups. Not on bankrupting the country.


----------



## sptrawler (8 February 2022)

I guess as time goes by more accurate info is forthcoming, eventually the truth about all this will come out IMO.









						'Broad implications': New study finds 'lasting damage' caused by Covid
					

Researchers say their findings have 'broad implications on economic productivity and life expectancy'.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



New research has pointed to the long-term medical affects of contracting Covid-19 with scientists warning governments should expect more cardiovascular problems among society including heart disease and stroke which could reduce life expectancy.

While the immediate impact of acute cases of Covid-19 is well understood, researchers say the "post-acute cardiovascular manifestations" are still not well known and comprehensively characterised.

The study, published in the journal _Nature Medicine_, used a national health database in the United States to analyse more than 153,000 people who contracted Covid-19, as well as using more than 5 million historical controls without evidence of infection.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 February 2022)

5agh, I see that the Queensland government has got the first stage of the 1000 bed wellcamp quarantine  facility open
 from Brisbane Times



> The first guests will bed down at Wellcamp quarantine facility on Saturday, as the hub finally opens its doors after months of fighting between the Queensland government and the Commonwealth.
> 
> A group of travellers is due to arrive via an Air New Zealand flight and will touch down in Brisbane before an hour-and-a-half bus trip west to the facility, near Toowoomba.
> Deputy Premier Steven Miles spoke with an air of vindication on the eve of the facility opening.
> ...



I am not sure if the writers of this article have been on a different planet or what.
Firstly,  unless there are special circumstances, no one  get into the country without being vaccinated (just ask Djokovic).
From DFAT


> Australia considers you to be fully vaccinated if you have completed a course, including a mixed dose*,* of a Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) approved or recognised vaccine. Current vaccines and dosages accepted for the purposes of travel are:
> 
> Two doses at least 14 days apart of:
> 
> ...



So you have to have got an exemption to travel from the federal government.
Ten people with exemptions.
Maybe they kids bewween 12 and 17 for whom  injections are not mandated in all countries.
Who knows, as usual the governments are not forthcoming.
Secondly, the Queensland government are not checking the border between NSW and QLD to see if anyone who flew into NSW or other states do not fit into their categories.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (8 February 2022)

yesterday, the feds released this statement 


> *And it's very important that people understand that requirement if they're seeking to come to Australia. But if you're double vaccinated, we look forward to welcoming you back to Australia, and I know the tourism industry will be looking forward to that, and over the next two weeks they will have the opportunity both for visitors to be coming and for them to be gearing up to welcome international visitors back to Australia.
> 
> Your visa is one thing, but your entry into Australia requires you also to be double vaccinated. And I think events earlier in the year should have sent a very clear message, I think, to everyone around the world that that is the requirement to enter into Australia.*



And of course, not to be outdone, Victoria has announced that you must be Triple Vaxed to enter the state as an international arrival.
So that means most people will come in via Sydney, and like QLD, Victoria will not be checking the intra country borders  for "illegals".
Politics, pure and simple.
Mick


----------



## basilio (8 February 2022)

Arguments against the *compulsory *fitting of winter tires in Canada

I refuse to put on winter tires because:
• It’s my car, my choice, my freedom.
• The effectiveness of winter tires is not proven, except by studies carried out by the manufacturers (like I’m supposed to trust them).
• My neighbor Bob had an accident even after putting on winter tires.
• Some drivers are already on their 3rd set of tires, which proves their ineffectiveness.
• We do not know what the tires are made of.
• The tire manufacturers scare us with winter just to enrich themselves.
• In fact, I read on the internet that the tire giants invented snow and spread it at night when you sleep.
• If I have winter tires, the government can track me in the snow.
Educate yourself, open your eyes, stop being sheep!
This year, I say no to winter tires!


----------



## The Triangle (8 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Arguments against the *compulsory *fitting of winter tires in Canada
> 
> I refuse to put on winter tires because:
> • It’s my car, my choice, my freedom.
> ...



Did you forget the link to an ABC or Guardian article? 

When you put on winter tyres you can see immediately the difference in grip while driving (if driving on the right surfaces).  You can try winter tyres and then take them off if you don't like them and your car has zero risk of being damaged.  You also have alternatives like snow chains, or driving cars with AWD as other mechanisms to cope with difficult winter driving conditions.  There is zero chance the winter tyres are suddenly going to block your fuel lines and blow up your engine.  And there is probably over 50 years of research on winter tyres.


----------



## moXJO (8 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Arguments against the *compulsory *fitting of winter tires in Canada
> 
> I refuse to put on winter tires because:
> • It’s my car, my choice, my freedom.
> ...



Unless it's mandated that you have to fit those tires up your ar5e then the above is a stupid.


----------



## sptrawler (8 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Unless it's mandated that you have to fit those tires up your ar5e then the above is a stupid.



When you're running with the narrative, a bit of freelancing is fine, any tripe is acceptable.


----------



## Investoradam (9 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Makes me wonder why we are letting tourists in with only 2 shots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



do how many shots will they need?
thanks to this poor innocent bloke who ate a bat in wuhan!


----------



## IFocus (9 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I guess as time goes by more accurate info is forthcoming, eventually the truth about all this will come out IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





That paper kills its just the flu narrative massive study cohort wise


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## moXJO (9 February 2022)

Does anyone know someone with long covid?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Does anyone know someone with long covid?




Not yet, but my family in Melbourne has just had it, so I'll keep you informed if they have long term effects.


----------



## Knobby22 (9 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Does anyone know someone with long covid?



Yes, the person I mentioned previously in her 40s who has massive lung damage (Delta unvaccinated).
And one of the 20 year old lads at the local rowing club is still suffering the effects 6 weeks later (caught New Years) and hasn't been able to get back into it  (stuffing my son's quad!). Not sure what variant or vaccination status but hopefully he is coming good and it is medium Covid!

Realistically though, not many caught the Delta or earlier variants in Australia so there can't be too many of them. Not sure about Omicron.


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## moXJO (9 February 2022)

Just dropping this here so I can reference back (I'm bound to forget them otherwise). Neither have enough data to really back anything yet. Not recommending any

AXA1125 for fatigue.

Paxlovid seen reported cures from long covid.

BC 007


----------



## macca (9 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Just dropping this here so I can reference back (I'm bound to forget them otherwise). Neither have enough data to really back anything yet. Not recommending any
> 
> AXA1125 for fatigue.
> 
> ...



Hey Mo,

We could have some fun with this, 

unless these are approved by Big Pharma and MSM you are leading with your chin.

I have read a number of research articles about "things" that assist long Covid and also the after effects of the mRna vaccines but no point on putting them here.

Is it a coincidence that Covid and the Vax have the same after effects, guess not as they both have the spike protein


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## Humid (9 February 2022)

macca said:


> Hey Mo,
> 
> We could have some fun with this,
> 
> ...



Probably funnier if he hadn't been vaxed with mRNA


----------



## rederob (9 February 2022)

macca said:


> Is it a coincidence that Covid and the Vax have the same after effects, guess not as they both have the spike protein



Given it's not true, the answer is clear.
Where do you get your misinformation?


----------



## basilio (9 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Arguments against the *compulsory *fitting of winter tires in Canada
> 
> I refuse to put on winter tires because:
> • It’s my car, my choice, my freedom.
> ...




What a dumb, ignorant set of "arguments". It takes very little to recognise the illogicality  and irrelevance of the points being made.

For two years people have been ranting about hidden computer chips, "personal freedoms and Rights to Choose", totally made up scare campaigns on vaccine caused deaths and equally deceitful stories on how COVID doesn't really kill that many people.

Somewhere in there I agree there are some good questions that deserve to be asked.  But in the overwhelming main, the anti vaxxer, "COVID is a hoax"movement is well represented by the analogy of the Winter tires argument.

And yes it is a satirical piece. I'm not aware of any particular organisation campaigning against compulsory fitting of winter tires. Yet..


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## basilio (9 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> That paper kills its just the flu narrative massive study cohort wise




Indeed it does.  There has been more than a few stories highlighting the impact of long COVID on hundreds of thousands of people who, in a number of cases, only seemed to cop a mild dose. The ongoing pressure on health services  can't be underestimated. 

And the desire to avoid infection as far as possible  in the first place makes even more sense.









						Long Covid study finds abnormality in lungs that could explain breathlessness
					

Findings raise possibility Covid may cause microscopic damage not detected by normal tests




					www.theguardian.com
				












						‘The scariest thing’: the children living with long Covid
					

Though still rare, the numbers of kids across the US reporting symptoms long after infection are increasing, doctors say




					www.theguardian.com
				







__





						What causes long Covid? Scientists are zeroing in on the answer.
					





					www.msn.com


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## qldfrog (9 February 2022)

in case you have the slightest faith in mankind left;
Our Great Leader Paluchet declared this week that Sign in was not mandatory anymore this week;
After 3 weeks of admitting that their QR code was not used for any tracing or medical purpose anymore
So in a way a nice good news

At Big W  yesterday, the shop had added big custom made signs with a big cross saying: Sign in NOT mandatory
 within 20CM of their old QR code..
Great and ........you still had a queue of people fiddling with their phone to check in...
Dumb sure but worse, in a way, these poor buggers are thinking better safe  than sorry and deeply believe that by signin in they are safer 
After all, they have been told so for 2y..
3y of brain washing and the sheeple risk withdrawal symptoms if they can not be tracked even when their government is not doing anything covid related with their data.
I would bet a fortune you have some people sleeping with their masks on or wearing it alone at home, they already wear them alone in their car,
BTW, not the surgical nappies anymore, the duffy duck style lately as if this would make a difference ROL
This is hopeless..
And they vote..


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## qldfrog (9 February 2022)

nearly all the people I know got omicron, probably got it too, but unsure as we had no RAT available then.
Now we have some and with a flight out overseas and PCR test in a week, I am shaking in my boots that I could be positive..
the irony...


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## wayneL (9 February 2022)

qldfrog said:


> in case you have the slightest faith in mankind left;
> Our Great Leader Paluchet declared this week that Sign in was not mandatory anymore this week;
> After 3 weeks of admitting that their QR code was not used for any tracing or medical purpose anymore
> So in a way a nice good news
> ...



I deleted my app about 8 months ago and have only ever been asked to sign in twice since then.

I walked into Woolies about 4 days ago without a mask, I had completely forgot and I was already halfway through my shopping by the time I noticed other people wearing them and remembered... Haven't worn a mask since and nobody has batted an eyelid.

Not at Karen in sight.


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## DB008 (9 February 2022)

This is interesting

Danish data offers hope the COVID-19 pandemic is ending,​but experts warn it's not quite over yet​
He believes Denmark, which last week removed most restrictions, could offer an insight into what the COVID endemic that is likely to follow the pandemic might look like.​​He says that in Denmark, the CFR (death rate) from the dominant BA.2 strain is less than 0.05 per cent — or 1 in 2,000.​​Mr Mackie says this is similar to the global death rate from influenza, which is estimated to kill between 0.05 and 0.1 per cent of those infected.​​However, he adds that it is likely the fatality rate from Omicron BA.2 is lower still, because all people who die within 30 days of a positive test are recorded as a COVID-19 death.​​"A University of Copenhagen study calculated that up to 40 per cent of the deaths recorded in the latest week in Denmark were people who died with COVID-19 rather than people who died because of COVID-19," he noted.​​*"If we make this adjustment, the CFR for BA.2 falls from 0.045 per cent to 0.027 per cent."*​​At this level, while Mr Mackie believes COVID-19 will still result in millions of extra hospitalisations around the world each year, he thinks governments are more likely to invest in their healthcare systems to respond than to impose restrictions on individual behaviour.​

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-09/denmark-covid-19-pandemic-becomes-endemic/100814004​
*0.027%*

And for people under the age of 50 with no underlying medical conditions, l bet it would be even lower. 

.


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## moXJO (9 February 2022)

basilio said:


> What a dumb, ignorant set of "arguments". It takes very little to recognise the illogicality  and irrelevance of the points being made.
> 
> For two years people have been ranting about hidden computer chips, "personal freedoms and Rights to Choose", totally made up scare campaigns on vaccine caused deaths and equally deceitful stories on how COVID doesn't really kill that many people.
> 
> ...



Who on here has been ranting about "computer chips"?

Whoever wrote it must have previously had covid. Because it read like someone was slightly brain damaged when they banged it out.


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## DB008 (10 February 2022)

ATAGI recommends change to definition of COVID-19 vaccine status​from 'fully vaccinated' to 'up to date'​

Australia's definition of being fully vaccinated against COVID-19 is set to change, with people aged over 16 years now only considered "up to date" with their vaccinations if they have had their booster shots.​​The Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) has recommended moving away from the term "fully vaccinated".​​ATAGI's new advice was endorsed by the national cabinet at a meeting this afternoon, but will not apply to international travellers arriving in Australia.​​"A person is 'up to date' if they have completed all the doses recommended for their age and individual health needs," Health Minister Greg Hunt said.​​Under the new rules, if it has been longer than six months since someone's last vaccine dose and they are eligible for a booster they will now be considered "overdue".​​All Australians aged over 16 years are currently eligible for a booster shot three months after their primary course.​​"People under 16 years of age will continue to be considered 'up to date' after completing their primary course of vaccination, while severely immunocompromised people aged five years and older [will] require a third primary dose to remain up to date," Mr Hunt said.​
More on link below...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-10/fully-covid-vaccinated-two-doses-atagi-advice/100821406​

Australia followed the CDC and chose the 'up to date path'. Looks like we are in lock-step with the USA (and the idiotic Biden administration).

Question, if you have had both jabs PLUS Omicron, what is the point of getting the booster? You've had Covid-19. In 3 - 6 months, the booster will be long gone. Natural immunity will always provide more immunity than the jab.

I'm sorry, but what is to then stop the Government going down the path of, you need to have 4 shots to be considered up to date around June/July?

.


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## DB008 (10 February 2022)

Evidence on natural immunity versus COVID-19 vaccine induced immunity:​

*Study/report title, author, and year published and interactive url link**Predominant finding on natural immunity*1) Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals, Shrestha, 2021“Cumulative incidence of COVID-19 was examined among 52,238 employees in an American healthcare system. The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects, previously infected subjects who were vaccinated, and previously uninfected subjects who were vaccinated, compared with a steady increase in cumulative incidence among previously uninfected subjects who remained unvaccinated. Not one of the 1359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated had a SARS-CoV-2 infection over the duration of the study. Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination…”2) SARS-CoV-2-specific T cell immunity in cases of COVID-19 and SARS, and uninfected controls, Le Bert, 2020“Studied T cell responses against the structural (nucleocapsid (N) protein) and non-structural (NSP7 and NSP13 of _ORF1_) regions of SARS-CoV-2 in individuals convalescing from coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) (_n_ = 36). In all of these individuals, we found CD4 and CD8 T cells that recognized multiple regions of the N protein…showed that patients (_n_ = 23) who recovered from SARS possess long-lasting memory T cells that are reactive to the N protein of SARS-CoV 17 years after the outbreak of SARS in 2003; these T cells displayed robust cross-reactivity to the N protein of SARS-CoV-2.”3) Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections,Gazit, 2021“A retrospective observational study comparing three groups: (1) SARS-CoV-2-naïve individuals who received a two-dose regimen of the BioNTech/Pfizer mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine, (2) previously infected individuals who have not been vaccinated, and (3) previously infected _and_ single dose vaccinated individuals found para a 13 fold increased risk of breakthrough Delta infections in double vaccinated persons, and a 27 fold increased risk for symptomatic breakthrough infection in the double vaccinated relative to the natural immunity recovered persons…the risk of hospitalization was 8 times higher in the double vaccinated (para)…this analysis demonstrated that natural immunity affords longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization due to the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity.”4) Highly functional virus-specific cellular immune response in asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection, Le Bert, 2021“Studied SARS-CoV-2–specific T cells in a cohort of asymptomatic (_n_ = 85) and symptomatic (_n_ = 75) COVID-19 patients after seroconversion…thus, asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2–infected individuals are not characterized by weak antiviral immunity; on the contrary, they mount a highly functional virus-specific cellular immune response.”5) Large-scale study of antibody titer decay following BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine or SARS-CoV-2 infection, Israel, 2021“A total of 2,653 individuals fully vaccinated by two doses of vaccine during the study period and 4,361 convalescent patients were included. Higher SARS-CoV-2 IgG antibody titers were observed in vaccinated individuals (median 1581 AU/mL IQR [533.8-5644.6]) after the second vaccination, than in convalescent individuals (median 355.3 AU/mL IQR [141.2-998.7]; p<0.001). In vaccinated subjects, antibody titers decreased by up to 40% each subsequent month while in convalescents they decreased by less than 5% per month…this study demonstrates individuals who received the Pfizer-BioNTech mRNA vaccine have different kinetics of antibody levels compared to patients who had been infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus, with higher initial levels but a much faster exponential decrease in the first group”.6) SARS-CoV-2 re-infection risk in Austria, Pilz, 2021Researchers recorded “40 tentative re-infections in 14, 840 COVID-19 survivors of the first wave (0.27%) and 253 581 infections in 8, 885, 640 individuals of the remaining general population (2.85%) translating into an odds ratio (95% confidence interval) of 0.09 (0.07 to 0.13)…relatively low re-infection rate of SARS-CoV-2 in Austria. Protection against SARS-CoV-2 after natural infection is comparable with the highest available estimates on vaccine efficacies.” Additionally, hospitalization in only five out of 14,840 (0.03%) people and death in one out of 14,840 (0.01%) (tentative re-infection).7) mRNA vaccine-induced SARS-CoV-2-specific T cells recognize B.1.1.7 and B.1.351 variants but differ in longevity and homing properties depending on prior infection status, Neidleman, 2021“Spike-specific T cells from convalescent vaccinees differed strikingly from those of infection-naïve vaccinees, with phenotypic features suggesting superior long-term persistence and ability to home to the respiratory tract including the nasopharynx. These results provide reassurance that vaccine-elicited T cells respond robustly to the B.1.1.7 and B.1.351 variants, confirm that convalescents may not need a second vaccine dose.”8) Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection, Bhandari, 2021“Months after recovering from mild cases of COVID-19, people still have immune cells in their body pumping out antibodies against the virus that causes COVID-19, according to a study from researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. Such cells could persist for a lifetime, churning out antibodies all the while. The findings, published May 24 in the journal Nature, suggest that mild cases of COVID-19 leave those infected with lasting antibody protection and that repeated bouts of illness are likely to be uncommon.”9) Robust neutralizing antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 infection persist for months, Wajnberg, 2021“Neutralizing antibody titers against the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein persisted for at least 5 months after infection. Although continued monitoring of this cohort will be needed to confirm the longevity and potency of this response, these preliminary results suggest that the chance of reinfection may be lower than is currently feared.”10) Evolution of Antibody Immunity to SARS-CoV-2, Gaebler, 2020“Concurrently, neutralizing activity in plasma decreases by five-fold in pseudo-type virus assays. In contrast, the number of RBD-specific memory B cells is unchanged. Memory B cells display clonal turnover after 6.2 months, and the antibodies they express have greater somatic hypermutation, increased potency and resistance to RBD mutations, indicative of continued evolution of the humoral response…we conclude that the memory B cell response to SARS-CoV-2 evolves between 1.3 and 6.2 months after infection in a manner that is consistent with antigen persistence.”11) Persistence of neutralizing antibodies a year after SARS-CoV-2 infection in humans, Haveri, 2021“Assessed the persistence of serum antibodies following WT SARS-CoV-2 infection at 8 and 13 months after diagnosis in 367 individuals…found that NAb against the WT virus persisted in 89% and S-IgG in 97% of subjects for at least 13 months after infection.”12) Quantifying the risk of SARS‐CoV‐2 reinfection over time, Murchu, 2021“Eleven large cohort studies were identified that estimated the risk of SARS‐CoV‐2 reinfection over time, including three that enrolled healthcare workers and two that enrolled residents and staff of elderly care homes. Across studies, the total number of PCR‐positive or antibody‐positive participants at baseline was 615,777, and the maximum duration of follow‐up was more than 10 months in three studies. Reinfection was an uncommon event (absolute rate 0%–1.1%), with no study reporting an increase in the risk of reinfection over time.”13) Natural immunity to covid is powerful. Policymakers seem afraid to say so, Makary, 2021







The Western Journal-MakaryMakary writes “it’s okay to have an incorrect scientific hypothesis. But when new data proves it wrong, you have to adapt. Unfortunately, many elected leaders and public health officials have held on far too long to the hypothesis that natural immunity offers unreliable protection against covid-19 — a contention that is being rapidly debunked by science. More than 15 studies have demonstrated the power of immunity acquired by previously having the virus. A 700,000-person study from Israel two weeks ago found that those who had experienced prior infections were 27 times less likely to get a second symptomatic covid infection than those who were vaccinated. This affirmed a June Cleveland Clinic study of health-care workers (who are often exposed to the virus), in which none who had previously tested positive for the coronavirus got reinfected. The study authors concluded that “individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from covid-19 vaccination.” And in May, a Washington University study found that even a mild covid infection resulted in long-lasting immunity.”
“The data on natural immunity are now overwhelming,” Makary told the Morning Wire. “It turns out the hypothesis that our public health leaders had that vaccinated immunity is better and stronger than natural immunity was wrong. They got it backwards. And now we’ve got data from Israel showing that natural immunity is 27 times more effective than vaccinated immunity.”14) SARS-CoV-2 elicits robust adaptive immune responses regardless of disease severity, Nielsen, 2021“203 recovered SARS-CoV-2 infected patients in Denmark between April 3rd and July 9th 2020, at least 14 days after COVID-19 symptom recovery… report broad serological profiles within the cohort, detecting antibody binding to other human coronaviruses… the viral surface spike protein was identified as the dominant target for both neutralizing antibodies and CD8+ T-cell responses. Overall, the majority of patients had robust adaptive immune responses, regardless of their disease severity.”15) Protection of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection is similar to that of BNT162b2 vaccine protection: A three-month nationwide experience from Israel, Goldberg, 2021“Analyze an updated individual-level database of the entire population of Israel to assess the protection efficacy of both prior infection and vaccination in preventing subsequent SARS-CoV-2 infection, hospitalization with COVID-19, severe disease, and death due to COVID-19… vaccination was highly effective with overall estimated efficacy for documented infection of 92·8% (CI:[92·6, 93·0]); hospitalization 94·2% (CI:[93·6, 94·7]); severe illness 94·4% (CI:[93·6, 95·0]); and death 93·7% (CI:[92·5, 94·7]). Similarly, the overall estimated level of protection from prior SARS-CoV-2 infection for documented infection is 94·8% (CI: [94·4, 95·1]); hospitalization 94·1% (CI: [91·9, 95·7]); and severe illness 96·4% (CI: [92·5, 98·3])…results question the need to vaccinate previously-infected individuals.”16) Incidence of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus-2 infection among previously infected or vaccinated employees, Kojima, 2021“Employees were divided into three groups: (1) SARS-CoV-2 naïve and unvaccinated, (2) previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, and (3) vaccinated. Person-days were measured from the date of the employee first test and truncated at the end of the observation period. SARS-CoV-2 infection was defined as two positive SARS-CoV-2 PCR tests in a 30-day period… 4313, 254 and 739 employee records for groups 1, 2, and 3…previous SARS-CoV-2 infection and vaccination for SARS-CoV-2 were associated with decreased risk for infection or re-infection with SARS-CoV-2 in a routinely screened workforce. The was no difference in the infection incidence between vaccinated individuals and individuals with previous infection.” 17) Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital, Wadman, 2021“Israelis who had an infection were more protected against the Delta coronavirus variant than those who had an already highly effective COVID-19 vaccine…the newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.”18) One-year sustained cellular and humoral immunities of COVID-19 convalescents, Zhang, 2021“A systematic antigen-specific immune evaluation in 101 COVID-19 convalescents; SARS-CoV-2-specific IgG antibodies, and also NAb can persist among over 95% COVID-19 convalescents from 6 months to 12 months after disease onset. At least 19/71 (26%) of COVID-19 convalescents (double positive in ELISA and MCLIA) had detectable circulating IgM antibody against SARS-CoV-2 at 12m post-disease onset. Notably, the percentages of convalescents with positive SARS-CoV-2-specific T-cell responses (at least one of the SARS-CoV-2 antigen S1, S2, M and N protein) were 71/76 (93%) and 67/73 (92%) at 6m and 12m, respectively.” 19) Functional SARS-CoV-2-Specific Immune Memory Persists after Mild COVID-19, Rodda, 2021“Recovered individuals developed SARS-CoV-2-specific immunoglobulin (IgG) antibodies, neutralizing plasma, and memory B and memory T cells that persisted for at least 3 months. Our data further reveal that SARS-CoV-2-specific IgG memory B cells increased over time. Additionally, SARS-CoV-2-specific memory lymphocytes exhibited characteristics associated with potent antiviral function: memory T cells secreted cytokines and expanded upon antigen re-encounter, whereas memory B cells expressed receptors capable of neutralizing virus when expressed as monoclonal antibodies. Therefore, mild COVID-19 elicits memory lymphocytes that persist and display functional hallmarks of antiviral immunity.”


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## DB008 (10 February 2022)

Prevalence and Durability of SARS-CoV-2 Antibodies Among Unvaccinated US Adults by History of COVID-19​
Feb 3, 2022

In this cross-sectional study of unvaccinated US adults, antibodies were detected in 99% of individuals who reported a positive COVID-19 test result, in 55% who believed they had COVID-19 but were never tested, and in 11% who believed they had never had COVID-19 infection. Anti-RBD levels were observed after a positive COVID-19 test result up to 20 months, extending previous 6-month durability data.5


5. Israel  A, Shenhar  Y, Green  I,  et al.  Large-scale study of antibody titer decay following BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine or SARS-CoV-2 infection.
_Vaccines (Basel)_. 2021;10(1):64. doi:10.3390/vaccines10010064PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788894?resultClick=1​


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## DB008 (11 February 2022)

Kids in Las Vegas Elementary school





Your browser is not able to display this video.




​Why they were told to wear masks in the first place with a 99.99% survival rate is beyond me. Then they have been told to get 3 shots, even if they have had Covid-19. WTF...

.


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## DB008 (13 February 2022)

This was written around the time of Delta

We now know that Omicron is milder than Delta

Vaccinating kids should be optional
​
The Kids Are Alright ​Why now is the time to rethink COVID safety protocols for children — and everyone else.​
JULY 12, 2021​
It may sound strange, given a year of panic over school closures and reopenings, a year of masking toddlers and closing playgrounds and huddling in pandemic pods, that, according to the CDC, among children the mortality risk from COVID-19 is actually lower than from the flu. The risk of severe disease or hospitalization is about the same.​​This is true for the much-worried-over Delta variant. It is also true for all the other variants, and for the original strain. Most remarkably, it has been known to be true since the very earliest days of the pandemic — indeed it was among the very first things we did know about the disease. The preliminary mortality data from China was very clear: To children, COVID-19 represented only a vanishingly tiny threat of death, hospitalization, or severe disease.​
Yet for a year and a half we have been largely unwilling to fully believe it. Children now wear masks at little-league games, and at the swimming pool, and when school reopens in the fall they will likely wear masks there, too. But the kids are not at risk themselves, and never were. Now, thanks to vaccines, the vast majority of their parents and grandparents aren’t any longer, either.​
But first: the kids. Over the course of the pandemic, 49,000 Americans under the age of 18 have died of all causes, according to the CDC. Only 331 of those deaths have been from COVID — less than half as many as have died of pneumonia. In 2019, more than 2,000 American kids and teenagers died in car crashes; each year, according to some estimates, about a thousand die from drowning.​​​More on link below...

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/07/the-kids-were-safe-from-covid-the-whole-time.html


.​


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## DB008 (13 February 2022)

Should we follow Denmark?


Vaccination rates



Vaccination Rates (% of pop)​First Shot​Second Shot​Third Shot (Booster)​Australia85.2%​79.2%​38.5%​Denmark83.1%​81.2%​61.8%​




COVID-19 cases rise every day in Denmark, but the country is confident​it can live without restrictions for now​
People in Denmark are enjoying life in a way that might have seemed inconceivable just a few months ago.​​Despite having some of the highest rates of infection in the world, they're drinking in crowded bars, hugging their loved ones and ditching their masks.​​It's behaviour that has typically been labelled reckless and selfish during the global COVID-19 pandemic.​​But now it marks a transition to post-COVID life.​​At the beginning of February, the Danish government decided COVID-19 was no longer a "socially critical disease" and it scrapped all restrictions.​​Danes aren't even legally required to quarantine.​​On an outdoor ice-rink in central Copenhagen, Julie Lindholm and her daughter, Anna, enjoyed their new-found freedoms as they skated with dozens of others on a clear-blue afternoon.​​Ms Lindholm said lockdowns and restrictions made her realise how much she took for granted and she was "grateful" they were gone.​​"I love it," she said.​​"Suddenly we can all be together and go skating without being afraid of each other."​​Ms Lindholm said she knew the rest of the world was watching her country's approach closely.​​"I understand why people … are worried. I was very worried to begin with," she said.​​'But … we all we did as the government told us to do. We all got the vaccine."​​While Denmark has been one of the first EU countries to move toward unwinding all COVID-19 restrictions, its attitude towards the virus hasn't always been so relaxed.​​A new way of thinking​Denmark was among the first countries in the world to implement a lockdown, in March 2020, amid the rapid spread of COVID-19.​​It also invested heavily in genomic sequencing to track new variants like the BA.2 sub-variant of Omicron, which is now dominant in Denmark and even more transmissible than the original strain.​​And when the Omicron variant began spreading rapidly last year, Denmark reimposed restrictions on workplaces, hospitality and schools in December.​​But Tyra Grove Krause, the chief epidemiologist at Denmark's State Serum Institute, said it also sparked a major rethink in the country's approach to COVID-19.​​"It's not so serious anymore," she told the ABC.​​"First of all, we have a very high vaccination coverage in Denmark."​​More than 80 per cent of the Danish population has had two doses of a COVID-19 vaccine, while more than 60 per cent of all Danes have received a booster.​​"We also have the extensive transmission with the variant that has proven to be less severe, compared to the previous variants," Dr Krause said.​​The Omicron wave triggered a massive spike in cases in the country, with Denmark currently recording one of the highest daily rates of COVID-19 in the world.​​The latest figures show a daily rate in Denmark of 7,370 cases per 1 million people, according to Our World in Data.​​In comparison, Australia's daily case rate is less than 1,000 per 1 million.​​Despite the surge in case numbers, the pressure on Denmark's intensive care units has eased.​​How Omicron prompted a move to post-COVID life​Dr Krause, who advises the Danish government, said a crucial link had been broken between case numbers and serious illness.​​"We see a decoupling of the number of cases and then the number of severely ill patients that need hospital care. That's very clear," Dr Krause said.​​"The strategy has, all the way through, been not to put more restrictions on the population than is actually needed to control the epidemic. And right now, the numbers look quite good."​

More on the link below...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02...ing-with-covid-to-a-whole-new-level/100812736​


.


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## Knobby22 (13 February 2022)

DB008 said:


> Should we follow Denmark?
> 
> 
> Vaccination rates
> ...



Yes , just watched it on the news.
Letting it spread through the population now with this less dangerous variant.

They are trying to strike a balance.
Their medical system is good , over 60% of the total adult population has had the booster shot (higher than Australia) and if you catch it you stay home to protect the vulnerable and importantly everyone does it.

Masks still used at elderly persons homes and within hospital. 

They act very adult about it and act with consideration to the aged and sick. It would be good if we could do the same and do similarly once we get enough people with the booster which should be possible by the end of the month.


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## IFocus (13 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Does anyone know someone with long covid?




Yeah daughters friend no taste or smell for 12 months hates food.


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## Garpal Gumnut (14 February 2022)

DB008 said:


> Why they were told to wear masks in the first place with a 99.99% survival rate is beyond me. Then they have been told to get 3 shots, even if they have had Covid-19. WTF...
> 
> .



Unfortunately Covid-19 may have some subsequent very serious cardiac effects in those affected from a recent article in Nature Medicine. 

Their findings suggest severity of cardiac effects is proportional to the severity of the original illness. 

It is only one study so let us hope further studies show different, otherwise the burden of Covid-19 will last a long, long time. 

gg


----------



## Knobby22 (14 February 2022)

Latest *Australian* Omicron Covid data. Honestly, as my sister said, why so long to release data and why not announce it more reguarly? She knew this weeks ago.

Vaccination data reveals booster effectiveness​The Victorian health department has released figures showing people who'd had two doses of COVID-19 vaccine were more than seven times more likely to end up in intensive care if they contract the virus than someone with three doses.

The department used figures from early February to evaluate the chances of a person with different levels of vaccine coverage needing greater hospital care.

*It found someone who was unvaccinated was 4.5 times more likely to end up in ICU than someone who had had two doses of vaccine, and 34 times more likely to need intensive care than someone who had had a booster.*

The department said people with three doses of vaccine made up 7.9 per cent of cases in ICU, but made up 45.9 per cent of the general adult population.

People who had had a booster were 88 per cent less likely to die from a COVID-19 infection than someone with no doses of vaccine.

"The data is clear that getting your third dose will significantly reduce your chances of going to hospital, going to ICU or dying from COVID-19," a spokesperson for the health department said.


----------



## Humid (14 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Latest *Australian* Omicron Covid data. Honestly, as my sister said, why so long to release data and why not announce it more reguarly? She knew this weeks ago.
> 
> Vaccination data reveals booster effectiveness​The Victorian health department has released figures showing people who'd had two doses of COVID-19 vaccine were more than seven times more likely to end up in intensive care if they contract the virus than someone with three doses.
> 
> ...



just a cold mate .....


----------



## moXJO (14 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Latest *Australian* Omicron Covid data. Honestly, as my sister said, why so long to release data and why not announce it more reguarly? She knew this weeks ago.
> 
> Vaccination data reveals booster effectiveness​The Victorian health department has released figures showing people who'd had two doses of COVID-19 vaccine were more than seven times more likely to end up in intensive care if they contract the virus than someone with three doses.
> 
> ...



For what age bracket?
I think it's for over 60.

To add:
*Safety study, cancer study*

Another Israeli study, published in The New England Journal of Medicine on September 16, reveals that the Pfizer vaccine was not associated with an elevated risk of adverse events such as Bell’s palsy, appendicitis and herpes zoster infection, among others, yet it was associated with an excess risk of myocarditis (1 to 5 events per 100,000 people).

However, the researchers found that the risk of myocarditis and of many other serious adverse events was substantially increased after SARS-CoV-2 infection – suggesting it’s safer to get the vaccine than the disease.

Meanwhile, a study by Belong.Life, an Israeli developer of social and professional networks for managing and navigating various diseases and patient journeys, shows that the relative risk of non-vaccinated cancer patients being infected with Covid-19 is 21.5 times higher than that of those who are vaccinated.

Among more than 1,000 “Belong – Beating Cancer Together” users receiving the Covid-19 vaccine, 97% did not experience major side effects from the shot. Of the 49% who received the vaccine during active cancer treatment, 96% did not have to delay, interrupt or cease therapy to get their vaccine.

The research, which is the first large report on real-world data obtained voluntarily from cancer patients, is being presented at the ESMO Virtual Congress 2021.


----------



## Knobby22 (14 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> For what age bracket?
> I think it's for over 60.
> 
> To add:
> ...



Everyone though obviously age is a major factor for ending up in hospital so I would expect the vast majority of inpatients are over 60.
However this also works for other effects such as mycarditis as confirmed by the study you have quoted which can effect youth.


----------



## sptrawler (15 February 2022)

Interesting how much flack Scomo copped for saying we need to identify the source, two years ago.
Now everyone recognises the severity of the problem.
I can see why Leigh Sales is fed up with the trolling, she has not only been trolled but has trolled for years. Lol
Getting any sensible unbiased, un paid for information is problematic.
There hasnt been many vaccines Ive known, that require renewing every 4 months.
Why, is the virus a lot worse than just problematic, for those with underlying health issues?
If so how much worse, why the panic?


----------



## Humid (15 February 2022)

Great Danes....


----------



## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

From The Telegraph


> Nicola Sturgeon is facing more pressure to ditch her draconian approach to Covid-19 restrictions after an analysis showed it had not prevented Scottish death rates from rising above England’s during the delta and omicron waves.
> 
> The Scottish Tories said it was time for the First Minister to trust Scots to take personal responsibility for how they manage the risks of the virus and claimed the data cast doubts over the effectiveness of her strategy of “bringing in restrictions on a whim”.
> 
> ...



No need to comment.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (16 February 2022)

Latest ABS figures, of note, average age 83.7, and 3/4 had serious underlying comorbidities.

Nothing awake folk didn't already know, but further confirmation.









						COVID-19 Mortality in Australia, Deaths registered to 31 January 2022
					

COVID-19 deaths that occurred by 31 January 2022 that have been registered and received by the ABS




					www.abs.gov.au


----------



## wayneL (16 February 2022)

Another innerestin' stat:


----------



## rederob (16 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Another innerestin' stat:




Looks like the States did a fantastic job with covid mitigation measures, as reflected by the stats - Thanks @wayneL


----------



## wayneL (16 February 2022)

rederob said:


> Looks like the States did a fantastic job with covid mitigation measures, as reflected by the stats - Thanks @wayneL



That's one way to parse it  Have we received the invoice for that yet?


----------



## rederob (16 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> That's one way to parse it  Have we received the invoice for that yet?



We could pay from pocket money, but other countries have had to crack open their vaults:





"According to *official statistics**,* *COVID-19 was the leading cause of death in France, Spain, the United Kingdom, and several U.S. states*. But after accounting for undercounting of COVID-19 deaths, it was the leading cause of death in the United States, Iran, and Poland (all were second-leading before adjusting to account for total deaths due to COVID-19). COVID-19 was the leading cause of death in the Region of the Americas and the third leading cause of death in the European Region."


----------



## DB008 (17 February 2022)

JUST IN - #Switzerland is lifting almost all Covid restrictions starting tomorrow, including vaccine passports and mask mandates (except for public transport and health facilities).

As of April 1, the country's COVID taskforce will be disbanded and the "special situation" due to the pandemic will end. The remaining mask and isolation requirements then end, too.

JUST IN - Netherlands to go "back to normal," almost all Covid restrictions will be lifted by February 25, the health minister announced.

"We are now in a different phase. A lot of people are infected, but the picture of hospital occupancy is completely different. It remains virtually stable," Ernst Kuipers said.


Meanwhile WA is going flat out with its contact traces to find out the source new infections... Lol. Hang in there my fellow comrades in WA, we will get through this soon.

WA is about 6 months behind QLD
Which is about 6 months behind NSW Which is about 6 months behind Europe...


----------



## Knobby22 (17 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Another innerestin' stat:




Well done Australia!
And in WA it wouldn't make the list at all!


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Well done Australia!
> And in WA it wouldn't make the list at all!



Curiously, WA makes the top of the list for fear and paranoia with lots of family, friendships, and business relationships being destroyed.

I am collecting quite a litany of anecdotes of totally over the top terrified behaviour, over a cold.


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2022)

DB008 said:


> WA is about 6 months behind QLD
> Which is about 6 months behind NSW Which is about 6 months behind Europe...



This is what I'm trying to explain to my enraged Mrs. (The ultimate anti-Karen)


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2022)

Age demographic slews in each country would have a huge impact on numbers of deaths.
The fact Australia is surrounded by ocean shouldn't escape notice either.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> This is what I'm trying to explain to my enraged Mrs. (The ultimate anti-Karen)



To be the ultimate anti Karen does that mean she won't visit Bunnings  ........( Waka Wake  Fozzie Bear)


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Well done Australia!
> And in WA it wouldn't make the list at all!



Surreal that after 2 years I still haven't met anyone who has had it


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> To be the ultimate anti Karen does that mean she won't visit Bunnings  ........( Waka Wake  Fozzie Bear)




It means she leaves everybody the @#£& alone to run their own lives... fiercely libertarian (In the spirit of John Stuart Mill).


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> To be the ultimate anti Karen does that mean she won't visit Bunnings  ........( Waka Wake  Fozzie Bear)



And BTW, we avoid using Bunnings if possible after the ridiculous and illogical way they implemented restrictions last year... I'll 'splain if you want me too.


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

Heart-disease risk soars after COVID — even with a mild case
					

Massive study shows a long-term, substantial rise in risk of cardiovascular disease, including heart attack and stroke, after a SARS-CoV-2 infection.




					www.nature.com
				



just a cold apparently


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> To be the ultimate anti Karen does that mean she won't visit Bunnings  ........( Waka Wake  Fozzie Bear)



Its the only place they can go in WA lol


----------



## rederob (17 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> It means she leaves everybody the @#£& alone to run their own lives... fiercely libertarian (In the spirit of John Stuart Mill).



It actually means the opposite, but you have never used the term correctly, so I guess you can believe it means whatever you want.


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2022)

rederob said:


> It actually means the opposite, but you have never used the term correctly, so I guess you can believe it means whatever you want.



Thank you, kind sir, expert in everything. I'm deeply appreciate of this correction on pop culture. Now please ##£& off.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Surreal that after 2 years I still haven't met anyone who has had it



You need to get out more.
mick


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> You need to get out more.
> mick



You don't get a Platinum Qantas card from sitting in a caravan Mick


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> You don't get a Platinum Qantas card from sitting in a caravan Mick



Flying to go to the construction sites doesn't count.
Also don't you fly to live in the equivalent of a caravan?


----------



## mullokintyre (17 February 2022)

No thats true, but then when you have a pilots license and your own plane, you don't need a  Qantas card, platinum or otherwise.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2022)

rederob said:


> It actually means the opposite, but you have never used the term correctly, so I guess you can believe it means whatever you want.



Interesting take.
Is that because they advocate for minimum govt intervention so annoy the powers that be?


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Flying to go to the construction sites doesn't count.
> Also don't you fly to live in the equivalent of a caravan?



Construction has crap rosters you wont reach platinum 
In Port Hedland they are caravans next to the pub on the busiest truck route


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> No thats true, but then when you have a pilots license and your own plane, you don't need a  Qantas card, platinum or otherwise.
> Mick



Flash it in the lounge in Changi.....see how that pans out


----------



## mullokintyre (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Flash it in the lounge in Changi.....see how that pans out



Unlike your goodself, I am not into flashing.
Mick


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Unlike your goodself, I am not into flashing.
> Mick



You should get out more....


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2022)

Is the 100 odd million doses of pfizer our government bought starting to make sense now, peeps?


----------



## rederob (17 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Interesting take.
> Is that because they advocate for minimum govt intervention so annoy the powers that be?



?
"Karens" have a sense of entitlement and abuse it by deliberately and often demandingly exercising it on others. 
In every sense they are interventionists.

On covid matters Karens might consider mask mandates as not applicable to them while simultaneously demanding that others abide by social distancing.


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2022)

rederob said:


> ?
> "Karens" have a sense of entitlement and abuse it by deliberately and often demandingly exercising it on others.
> In every sense they are interventionists.
> 
> On covid matters Karens might consider mask mandates as not applicable to them while simultaneously demanding that others abide by social distancing.



Oh "karens".
 Ok I thought "libertarians".


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2022)

I think there are 10000 about to go for a payment for vaccine induced illness. They have made it very tight requirements to get. I'm guessing more would go for it for what it initially did. I'm going back in for heart tests as it's been stuffed ever since the first vax.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 February 2022)

One of my Brothers has also gone in for heart tests after having a reaction to the booster.
He has always been a candidate for heart problems as he drinks too much, has always been overweight, and has a terrible diet.
He is blaming the booster shot, the rest of us are blaming 60 years of unhealthy living.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> One of my Brothers has also gone in for heart tests after having a reaction to the booster.
> He has always been a candidate for heart problems as he drinks too much, has always been overweight, and has a terrible diet.
> He is blaming the booster shot, the rest of us are blaming 60 years of unhealthy living.
> Mick



I've been training for a while now. Drink once or twice a year. Although I did pack on weight to stay closer to my sons weight class.
I actually had multiple reactions to the first shot. 
Second shot was fine.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I've been training for a while now. Drink once or twice a year. Although I did pack on weight to stay closer to my sons weight class.
> I actually had multiple reactions to the first shot.
> Second shot was fine.



Brother had two shots of AZ, then the third was Pfizer.
Thats the only difference, he was still obese, drank too much,  and lived on takeaways.
He has now sworn off the booze as he is on a restricted fluid intake, with plenty of diuretics to get some of the fluid out of his system.
Time will tell whether it does him any good.
Can't do much exercise, but may have to now that his only means of transport, his old car, has finally had enough and blown a piston through the side of the block. Like him, it will probably need a transplant.
Mick


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

rederob said:


> ?
> "Karens" have a sense of entitlement and abuse it by deliberately and often demandingly exercising it on others.
> In every sense they are interventionists.
> 
> On covid matters Karens might consider mask mandates as not applicable to them while simultaneously demanding that others abide by social distancing.



Some say the male equivalent is a Kevin or Ken but I prefer Waynal


----------



## moXJO (17 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Brother had two shots of AZ, then the third was Pfizer.
> Thats the only difference, he was still obese, drank too much,  and lived on takeaways.
> He has now sworn off the booze as he is on a restricted fluid intake, with plenty of diuretics to get some of the fluid out of his system.
> Time will tell whether it does him any good.
> ...



I suppose he is a prime example of someone that would have complications from catching covid.

 One thing this pandemic has done is make people assess where they are on the health scale.


----------



## Knobby22 (17 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Brother had two shots of AZ, then the third was Pfizer.
> Thats the only difference, he was still obese, drank too much,  and lived on takeaways.
> He has now sworn off the booze as he is on a restricted fluid intake, with plenty of diuretics to get some of the fluid out of his system.
> Time will tell whether it does him any good.
> ...



You wonder whether the large increase in heart disease is really just people realising they have a problem.








						Heart-disease risk soars after COVID — even with a mild case
					

Massive study shows a long-term, substantial rise in risk of cardiovascular disease, including heart attack and stroke, after a SARS-CoV-2 infection.




					www.nature.com


----------



## mullokintyre (17 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> You wonder whether the large increase in heart disease is really just people realising they have a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, one of the outcomes of some of the health system changes in Victoria at least, has been the huge curtailing of non covid ossues. 
Elective surgery cut right back, face to face visits to medicos to show them the lumps on your back or listen to the wheese in your chest.
I suspect there will be plenty of undiagnosed issues like that of my brother within the community.
Mick


----------



## macca (17 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I suppose he is a prime example of someone that would have complications from catching covid.
> 
> One thing this pandemic has done is make people assess where they are on the health scale.




we have friends that we are not game to visit, if they get it they are in big trouble.

Family are the type to blame everyone or thing except the spare 60kgs each they have in case of starvation


----------



## wayneL (17 February 2022)

On mandates, from the ever sensible Gemma Tognini


----------



## wayneL (18 February 2022)

Why is the world talking so much about AIDS all of the sudden?


----------



## macca (18 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Why is the world talking so much about AIDS all of the sudden?




My thoughts as well, 



			https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/cratons-personal-covid-19-vaccination-journey.36272/page-46#post-1160637


----------



## noirua (19 February 2022)

United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				



Deaths in the last 7 days = 1,028








						Australia COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Australia Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				



Deaths in the last 7 days = 345








						United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				



Deaths in the last 7 days = 11,898








						Germany COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Germany Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				



Deaths in the last 7 days = 1,150








						Brazil COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Brazil Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				



Deaths in the last 7 days = 5,886


----------



## wayneL (19 February 2022)

Hildebrand on the money... again.









						‘It’s clear’: Covid scare-mongering exposed
					

OPINION




					www.news.com.au


----------



## Humid (19 February 2022)

Efficacy of Ivermectin on Disease Progression in Patients With COVID-19
					

This randomized clinical trial assesses the efficacy of ivermectin treatment in preventing progression to severe disease among high-risk patients with COVID-19 in Malaysia.




					jamanetwork.com


----------



## DB008 (20 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Surreal that after 2 years I still haven't met anyone who has had it




I have. And all have been confirmed with PCR Tests. The RAT Tests (in what l have seen so far) have a 50% error rate (possibly more). I don't trust RAT's anymore at all. Hot garbage. Last week 4 people at worked tested positive RAT, did a PCR later that day and all came back negative.

As I have mentioned earlier, everyone at my workplace, one by one, is testing positive to Covid-19 - confirmed with PCR Test.
What is interesting so far is that the older people (50+) seem to have milder symptoms (sore throat for 1 day at best) than the younger workers (30 - 40 year olds) 2 - 3 days.


----------



## moXJO (20 February 2022)

Was busy out last night in town. Pubs and clubs were packed. I think covid is over for now in nsw. Masks are going next week. About bloody time. 

Might be another outbreak come winter. But I think the ridiculousness of it all is over


----------



## DB008 (20 February 2022)

moXJO - exactly. QLD won't be far behind. I have family all over the world at the moment, and Australia and NZ are pretty much the last ones standing. Both countries have done well (for total deaths), but we have been extremely luck in the fact that Delta was contained for a while and just as Delta started to break out, along came Omicron.


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2022)

When or if, the next pandemic comes, we will have the purpose built quarantine facilities.
As long as they haven't become dilapidated ruins by then.
I wonder if maintenance will be a Federal or State function, I guess we will have to wait and see, when they are required in a few years time and who will wear the blame if they are dilapidated. Maybe they can be used as a detention centre after the election?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-20/victoria-mickleham-quarantine-facility-open/100845058
From the article:
Melbourne’s $580 million purpose-built quarantine facility is getting ready to welcome its first quarantine patients next week, but with COVID-19 case numbers on the decline it is only anticipating up to 10 guests on day one.
The Centre for National Resilience in Mickleham will eventually be able to accommodate up to 1,000 people, but when it opens on Monday only 500 beds will be available and few will be occupied.

"We're imagining small numbers, seven to 10 [residents] on Monday, and then we're just going to need to see as that grows," Police Minister Lisa Neville said.

For the first time the federal government, which is funding the facility, has confirmed the expected cost of completion is $580 million.
It will be the most expensive of several centres set to be built around the country.

During a media tour of the facility, some of the beds featured towels folded into the shape of white elephants.

The Mickleham facility is built and owned by the federal government, but will be operated by the Victorian government for the duration of the COVID-19 pandemic.
But the state government also sees a future for the facility beyond this pandemic.

"You might be able to provide emergency housing in bushfire times for example," Ms Neville said.

"It is built to be able to provide, feed people, care for people in a really nice space


----------



## DB008 (20 February 2022)

​Boris Johnson to end forced self-isolation after positive Covid test in England​
PM to announce end to legal duty to quarantine next week as part of ‘living with Covid’ measures​​The prime minister is to announce the end of the legal duty to self-isolate after testing positive for Covid-19 next week.​​Downing Street said Boris Johnson will lay out his intentions to repeal all pandemic regulations that restrict public freedoms in England as part of his “living with Covid” plan on Monday.​​Johnson will also tell MPs returning to parliament after February recess that the country can rely on the vaccine programme, testing, and new treatments to keep people safe.​​The prime minister said: “Covid will not suddenly disappear, and we need to learn to live with this virus and continue to protect ourselves without restricting our freedoms. We’ve built up strong protections against this virus over the past two years through the vaccine rollouts, tests, new treatments, and the best scientific understanding of what this virus can do.​​“Thanks to our successful vaccination programme and the sheer magnitude of people who have come forward to be jabbed, we are now in a position to set out our plan for living with Covid this week.”​​By the end of the week, local authorities will be required to manage outbreaks with pre-existing public health powers.​​Pharmaceutical interventions will “continue to be our first line of defence”, with the vaccine programme remaining “open to anyone who has not yet come forward”, Downing Street added.​
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...solation-after-positive-covid-test-in-england


.​


----------



## noirua (21 February 2022)

Queen Elizabeth II tests positive for COVID, has mild symptoms
					

Buckingham Palace says Queen Elizabeth II has tested positive for COVID-19 and is experiencing mild, cold-like symptoms




					www.sandiegouniontribune.com
				











						Royals' concern as Queen gets Covid & Harry's isolation is 'emphasised' - expert
					

The Queen has tested positive for Covid-19 but plans to continue "light duties" in Windsor, with Prince Charles, Prince William, Kate Middleton and the rest of the royal family receiving regular updates




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## wayneL (21 February 2022)

noirua said:


> Queen Elizabeth II tests positive for COVID, has mild symptoms
> 
> 
> Buckingham Palace says Queen Elizabeth II has tested positive for COVID-19 and is experiencing mild, cold-like symptoms
> ...



This could be a watershed moment in the whole pandemic ruse.


----------



## moXJO (21 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> This could be a watershed moment in the whole pandemic ruse.



Isn't she 96 or something?

God, even a @Humid comment could take her out at this stage.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Isn't she 96 or something?
> 
> God, even a @Humid comment could take her out at this stage.



She is triple vaxed and will get the new anti virus treatment that works if caught early. She'll be alright.


----------



## Humid (21 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> She is triple vaxed and will get the new anti virus treatment that works if caught early. She'll be alright.



She likes horses


----------



## rederob (21 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> She is triple vaxed and will get the new anti virus treatment that works if caught early. She'll be alright.



She has natural immunity, first catching the corona back in 1953.
No truth to the rumour that Prince Philip injected her with the spike protein though.


----------



## wayneL (21 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Isn't she 96 or something?
> 
> God, even a @Humid comment could take her out at this stage.



That's why I think it could be a watershed. Whether she survives it or not, some pretty profound inferences will be undertaken.

They won't be data based, but rather emotion based.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 February 2022)

All those rich wankers hoping to buy a knighthood will be devastated.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (22 February 2022)

This is unbelievable (in the rhetorical sense)


----------



## rederob (22 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> This is unbelievable (in the rhetorical sense)



As Kory is a proven fraudster (or simply incompetent) it's more likely just *UNBELIEVABLE *in the true sense of the word.


----------



## wayneL (22 February 2022)

rederob said:


> As Kory is a proven fraudster (or simply incompetent) it's more likely just *UNBELIEVABLE *in the true sense of the word.



Pfizer thanks you


----------



## rederob (22 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> Pfizer thanks you



Rather than post a link, try to determine its veracity for a change.
Your record to date has been nothing short of abysmal.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 February 2022)

Now that we have passed the 3 million cases in OZ, I was looking at the  cases for of COVID in WA, consistently climbing and now into the  mid 260's.
I then went to have a look at the number of tests they do to get the numbers they do.
The first thing I noticed is that they don't seem to do any PCR testing on the weekends.






Obviously confident that the Virus doesn't spread on weekends.
Maybe they just process them all on Mondays, as there seems to be big numbers every Monday.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (22 February 2022)

rederob said:


> Rather than post a link, try to determine its veracity for a change.
> Your record to date has been nothing short of abysmal.



What I would like you to do, O wise one, O font of all knowledge, is to have an interchange with Dr Kory (an actual medical doctor, which you are not) on these matters. He can be found on Twitter at @PierreKory.

Link us so we can all watch your humiliation.


----------



## rederob (22 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> What I would like you to do, O wise one, O font of all knowledge, is to have an interchange with Dr Kory (an actual medical doctor, which you are not) on these matters. He can be found on Twitter at @PierreKory.
> 
> Link us so we can all watch your humiliation.



You clearly don't think the fact he has had numerous papers withdrawn from publication due to poor or deliberate manipulation of data is enough humiliation for Kory!
As I suggested, your links, especially of tweets, continue to lack credibility.
Regularly pointing this out to you is apparently meaningless.
Not that you would do this, but others should at least look up the Epoch group and learn about their history of lies and deceit which goes hand in glove with who and what they feature.


----------



## wayneL (22 February 2022)

rederob said:


> You clearly don't think the fact he has had numerous papers withdrawn from publication due to poor or deliberate manipulation of data is enough humiliation for Kory!
> As I suggested, your links, especially of tweets, continue to lack credibility.
> Regularly pointing this out to you is apparently meaningless.
> Not that you would do this, but others should at least look up the Epoch group and learn about their history of lies and deceit which goes hand in glove with who and what they feature.



As suspected, you don't have the ticketr to debate him directly.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 February 2022)

'A horrible thing': MP lashes anti-vaxxers circling primary schools
					

Kalgoorlie MP Ali Kent says the behaviour of anti-vax demonstrators accused of causing stress and anxiety in young kids is "quite disgusting".




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## mullokintyre (23 February 2022)

WA cases jumped up by 645 from todays figures.
Thats a blowout, so they have lost control of the pandemic (assuming that they ever did have control).
The sandgropers are in for a spot of bother, lucky they only have 5 in hospital. none in ICU or on Ventilators.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (23 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> WA cases jumped up by 645 from todays figures.
> Thats a blowout, so they have lost control of the pandemic (assuming that they ever did have control).
> The sandgropers are in for a spot of bother, lucky they only have 5 in hospital. none in ICU or on Ventilators.
> Mick



The chickens always come home to roost. As we have seen every place around the world, the Genie is let out of the bottle eventually.

WA has just managed to delay it a bit longer than everywhere else because of our geography. But in no sense was WA ever going to be able to avoid it all together.

Meanwhile, as the rest of the world opens up, we are just at the very top of the sh¹t chute with a world of pain in front of us.

Well done McMao, you totalitarian sh¹thead, we will be  of the lagards entire planet... A pox on your house!


----------



## mullokintyre (23 February 2022)

With two years to prepare for this, one would assume that the WA health dept is well top of things, with lots of plans and health protocols etc to cope with the increase in cases.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> WA cases jumped up by 645 from todays figures.
> Thats a blowout, so they have lost control of the pandemic (assuming that they ever did have control).
> The sandgropers are in for a spot of bother, lucky they only have 5 in hospital. none in ICU or on Ventilators.
> Mick



For all the statistics in W.A prove, everyone could have had it already, no one I know or speak to even on a casual basis ever gets tested.
The only ones who probably are getting tested are those who have to, those who go down with serious flu symptoms and those who are hypochondriacs and are probably being tested every other day.
This morning I was having a coffee with a half a dozen or so people, one who travels throughout the State doing guided tours was complaining about sore joints, I said have you been drinking a lot of wine, or citrus drinks? have you had any flu like symptoms and have you been tested for covid? well that changed the conversation onto something else quick smart. 🤣


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

At least they got to see how it went in the other states.
Nsw is basically back to normal. 
The media doesn't know what to report on now. There's only so many times you can say "Ukraine is being invaded by Russia".


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> With two years to prepare for this, one would assume that the WA health dept is well top of things, with lots of plans and health protocols etc to cope with the increase in cases.
> Mick



They have had ramping and full hospitals for the last two years, with no covid, when I broke my leg in November even though I was a private patient I was taken to Royal Perth as everywhere else was full.
The good thing is none of the surgery, after surgery rehab and equipment, follow up appointments with the surgeon, has cost a brass razoo.
Magic I pay $5k private health and when I had knee and hip replacements I was thousands out of pocket each time and had to buy my own rehab gear crutches etc.
Go public nothing, not a zack and more equipment than you can poke a stick at. 
Now all I have to do is convince the wife, that just because we can afford private health doesn't mean we should, that will never happen the wife refuses to be a bludger. 😩


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> At least they got to see how it went in the other states.
> Nsw is basically back to normal.
> The media doesn't know what to report on now. There's only so many times you can say "Ukraine is being invaded by Russia".



When Glady's replacement called it, didn't the media predict 10's of thousands in hospital and people dying in the streets.


----------



## moXJO (23 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> When Glady's replacement called it, didn't the media predict 10's of thousands in hospital and people dying in the streets.



The worst thing was idiots lapped it up. 
And wanted as harsh rules as possible.


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> The worst thing was idiots lapped it up.
> And wanted as harsh rules as possible.



That's WA right now.


----------



## mullokintyre (24 February 2022)

And now for some good news.
From ABC NEWS


> The latest breakthrough in COVID vaccines isn't using cutting edge technology or a radical new approach to stop the global spread of disease.
> Instead, a small team of researchers in the US have gone back to basics, with one key difference: their vaccine is patent-free.
> It means any drug maker can use the recipe freely to reproduce the vaccine, without any payment or complex licensing arrangements.
> Microbiologist Maria Bottazzi, her colleague Peter Hotez and their team at the Texas Children's Hospital's Center for Vaccine Development last month unveiled Corbevax, "the world's COVID-19 vaccine", and doctors say it could be a game changer.
> ...



Now watch and wait for the Big Pharma industry to kill it off.
Mick


----------



## IFocus (24 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> WA cases jumped up by 645 from todays figures.
> Thats a blowout, so they have lost control of the pandemic (assuming that they ever did have control).
> The sandgropers are in for a spot of bother, lucky they only have 5 in hospital. none in ICU or on Ventilators.
> Mick





Vax rates are high so hopefully hospital rates stay low, I think when the numbers were in the 20,s the state gov said they wouldn't be able to stop this out break.

Talking to the local dentist the other day and like most of those businesses in close contact to people he was saying the good times are over.


----------



## Investoradam (24 February 2022)

And the NPC left call the protesters crazy!
Maybe they have a point


----------



## moXJO (24 February 2022)

wayneL said:


> That's WA right now.



I like how WA opens up once everyone is about to get it.  Because science.


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I like how WA opens up once everyone is about to get it.  Because science.



Allow me to make a very small correction to your post...

"bEcAuSe sCiEnCe.”

In fact at least a quarter of the people I've come in contact with in the last 3 or 4 days have some sort of lurgy. Nothing more than nods and winks  exchanged (apart from perhaps the lurgy 😂)

Hayvever? Cold? Beer Bug?


----------



## Humid (24 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Efficacy of Ivermectin on Disease Progression in Patients With COVID-19
> 
> 
> This randomized clinical trial assesses the efficacy of ivermectin treatment in preventing progression to severe disease among high-risk patients with COVID-19 in Malaysia.
> ...



Where's the horse crew gone?


----------



## Knobby22 (24 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Where's the horse crew gone?



Doesn't work hey?


----------



## Humid (24 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Doesn't work hey?



Well not according to the Malaysians.....but Penny Wong was born in Malaysia so mmmmm


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Doesn't work hey?



We've been through this. It doesn't work on its own


----------



## wayneL (24 February 2022)

Interesting questions.


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> Vax rates are high so hopefully hospital rates stay low, I think when the numbers were in the 20,s the state gov said they wouldn't be able to stop this out break.
> 
> Talking to the local dentist the other day and like most of those businesses in close contact to people he was saying the good times are over.



Don't quote me on this, you may have a better ear to the ground. But a little birdie told me, a lot of staff at our local have resigned.

On a more holistic W.A note, there is a bad outbreak in our most vunerable communities, one recently happened in Esperance, now one in the North.








						Plan unveiled to keep health staff, police at work as WA records 1,000 new COVID cases for first time
					

Close contact rules are relaxed for police and health staff to keep them at work as another 1,043 COVID-19 cases emerge in Western Australia, with the Chief Health Officer warning authorities are "probably not capturing everyone" who is infected.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## IFocus (25 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Don't quote me on this, you may have a better ear to the ground. But a little birdie told me, a lot of staff at our local have resigned.
> 
> On a more holistic W.A note, there is a bad outbreak in our most vunerable communities, one recently happened in Esperance, now one in the North.
> 
> ...





Know of only one who didn't want to get vaxed everyone else is still employed as far as I know.

Its was the young mining guys up in arms a month or so ago haven't seen anyone since (no surf) so not sure where that all went.


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2022)

IFocus said:


> Know of only one who didn't want to get vaxed everyone else is still employed as far as I know.
> 
> Its was the young mining guys up in arms a month or so ago haven't seen anyone since (no surf) so not sure where that all went.



Only heard it this morning, so time will tell, but my last two physio appointments for the broken leg have been changed to a phone call.


----------



## DB008 (26 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Where's the horse crew gone?




Ask the Queen (_Stromectol)_


----------



## Humid (27 February 2022)

DB008 said:


> Ask the Queen (_Stromectol)_



Spoke to her last night she said stop watching a Current Affair


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

Where's covid gone off the front pages.


----------



## moXJO (27 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Where's the horse crew gone?



They all used a panadol instead.


----------



## rederob (27 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Where's covid gone off the front pages.



MSM refuses to cough up now.
Dead set.


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Spoke to her last night she said stop watching a Current Affair



Was she coming home from the mardi gras?


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2022)

Both daughters received an sms today(Sunday), to say there had been positive covid tests at the school, I thought that weird.
The daughters live in different suburbs, kids go to different schools, similar SMS. On a Sunday?


----------



## Humid (28 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Was she coming home from the mardi gras?



Not sure it was on the Nokia


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Not sure it was on the Nokia



Here is something to shove in your antique. Interesting the exhaust is in the valley, must suck air in from where the exhaust manifold normally goes, or else it is just a mock up for the photo shoot. Hard to run the exhaust pipe from that location.  








						Yamaha producing a hydrogen fuelled 450 hp V8 for Toyota | MCNews
					

Yamaha have a long history of lending their engine building know-how to car makers going back more than four decades with the release of the Toyota 2000GT in 1967.  That partnership continued with Yamaha supplying engines for various Lexus and Toyota models right up to the present day. Yamaha...




					www.mcnews.com.au


----------



## moXJO (1 March 2022)

In case a nuclear bomb goes off its important to remember what you need to do and what really matters:






It has to be fake.


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Australia's covid response, gets a bit of credit on the World stage.



			https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/what-australia-did-bill-gates-praises-aussie-covid-response/news-story/6d864310d73cc32cf51b8dfdc1f735d0
		

From the article:
US billionaire and Microsoft founder Bill Gates has applauded Australia’s pandemic strategy.
Speaking at the inaugural Munich Security Council, Mr Gates said Australia’s ability to quickly implement restrictions allowed the island nation to suppress Covid cases early on.

“If every country does what Australia did, then you wouldn’t be calling [the next outbreak] a pandemic,” he said.


----------



## macca (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Australia's covid response, gets a bit of credit on the World stage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bill invested many millions in Vaccine Co's about 10 years ago, off course he thinks Oz is wondeful, he made a few extra billions.

He and Fauci called it the decade of vaccines.........


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Australia's covid response, gets a bit of credit on the World stage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well Homy if that doesn't want you to upgrade from Windows 95 nothing will
Go get em


----------



## moXJO (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Well Homy if that doesn't want you to upgrade from Windows 95 nothing will
> Go get em



Screw windows vista forever.


----------



## moXJO (1 March 2022)

TV doctor roasted for Covid prediction
					

The ABC’s Dr Norman Swan says Russian soldiers and Ukrainians are both at risk from more than war — warning of a fresh Covid-19 outbreak.




					www.news.com.au
				




Just when you thought it was safe to go to war. Along came covid.


----------



## DB008 (3 March 2022)

Hmm, that's interesting


Pfizer Covid vaccine was just 12% effective against omicron in kids 5 to 11, study finds​

New York state officials found the effectiveness of Pfizer’s vaccine against Covid infection plummeted from 68% to 12% for children aged 5 to 11 during the omicron surge.
The dramatic drop in vaccine effectiveness was likely due to the lower dosage the youngsters received, according to study team members.
The data comes as New York City plans to end its school mask mandate by March 7.

Pfizer and BioNTech’s two-dose Covid vaccine provided very little protection for children aged 5 to 11 during the wave of omicron infection in New York, according to a study published Monday.​​The New York State Department of Health found that the effectiveness of Pfizer’s vaccine against Covid infection plummeted from 68% to 12% for kids in that age group during the omicron surge from Dec. 13 through Jan 24. Protection against hospitalization dropped from 100% to 48% during the same period.​​The study has not yet undergone peer review, the academic gold standard. Due to the public health urgency of the pandemic, scientists have been publishing the results of their studies before such review.​​The team of public health officials who conducted the study said the dramatic drop in vaccine effectiveness among children 5 to 11 years old was likely due to the lower dosage they received. Kids in this age group are given two 10-microgram shots, while children aged 12 to 17 receive 30-microgram shots.​
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/28/pfi...s.html?__source=sharebar|twitter&par=sharebar​

.


----------



## AlexMart86 (4 March 2022)

So what the hell is the point of this vaccine if it doesnt work?


----------



## rederob (4 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Well Homy if that doesn't want you to upgrade from Windows 95 nothing will
> Go get em



You can't load Windows 95 onto a Commodore 64 can you?


----------



## DB008 (4 March 2022)

Another work colleague tested positive for Covid last week.
PCR Test confirmed.
Slight headache for half a day.
That's it.
Mid 30's

QLD Masks are now off!

WA, you ain't far behind. I feel for you. Hang in there fellow comrades. 

.


----------



## moXJO (4 March 2022)

rederob said:


> You can't load Windows 95 onto a Commodore 64 can you?



Shhhhh he thinks he's Atari is a commodore 64.


----------



## IFocus (4 March 2022)

DB008 said:


> Another work colleague tested positive for Covid last week.
> PCR Test confirmed.
> Slight headache for half a day.
> That's it.
> ...





Here in WA we will be fine (neighbours have COVID) our McGowan tattoos will protect us.


----------



## moXJO (5 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> Here in WA we will be fine (neighbours have COVID) our McGowan tattoos will protect us.



How's it going over there?
Stopped hearing about covid now the Ukraine war is all over the papers.


----------



## wayneL (5 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> How's it going over there?
> Stopped hearing about covid now the Ukraine war is all over the papers.



Dick-tator is still dictating, but throwing a few crumbs to the Proles.


----------



## IFocus (5 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> How's it going over there?
> Stopped hearing about covid now the Ukraine war is all over the papers.





Pretty normal as it has been for the last 2 years but people are starting to hold back a bit more now and small businesses are starting to scream as numbers drop off and restrictions on numbers come in.

Talking to a local nurse they haven't seen any cases in the local hospital yet which surprised me.

In the main most are following the rules so will be interesting if the rise of infection rates continues to be slow in comparison to the east coast.


----------



## moXJO (5 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> Pretty normal as it has been for the last 2 years but people are starting to hold back a bit more now and small businesses are starting to scream as numbers drop off and restrictions on numbers come in.
> 
> Talking to a local nurse they haven't seen any cases in the local hospital yet which surprised me.
> 
> In the main most are following the rules so will be interesting if the rise of infection rates continues to be slow in comparison to the east coast.



It starts off pretty slow and then just takes off. It's realistically a 2 day thing of feeling like sht. Effects are well known now.

The worst part is the scare mongering from media. NSW is back to normal pretty much. Winter revision is the tester. But everyone caught it here, so immunities are high. Will keep an eye on the data though.


----------



## wayneL (5 March 2022)

IFocus said:


> Pretty normal as it has been for the last 2 years but people are starting to hold back a bit more now and small businesses are starting to scream as numbers drop off and restrictions on numbers come in.



Bearing in mind I probably move in different circles, most, about 3/4, are super angry about how things are. Even on talkback (6PR) there are fewer and fewer McGowan sycophants and more and more enraged.



IFocus said:


> Talking to a local nurse they haven't seen any cases in the local hospital yet which surprised me.



I have a fair few clients in the medical profession, including one of the nurses at Joondalup that looked after that first death recently. They are speaking out more.


IFocus said:


> In the main most are following the rules so will be interesting if the rise of infection rates continues to be slow in comparison to the east coast.



Yep, we're a complicit bunch. That can be good if we trust the gu'mint. But bad if our gu'mint is overly and unnecessarily authoritarian. 

McClown is a petty tyrant, so its bad.

Preventing people seeing their loved ones at end of life has woken a lot of people up... I know how they feel, I am unremittingly seething that my own Mum spent the last 10 days of her life, absolutely alone (That was in Qld early 2021).


----------



## DB008 (5 March 2022)

Yeah, it's certainly a clown world out there.

Lets take a look at WA. Case numbers are increasing, yet restrictions are loosening. Hmm, a real pandemic. Does that not strike anyone as strange? The same scenario has pretty much happened everywhere in Australia and many parts of the world.


----------



## moXJO (5 March 2022)

DB008 said:


> Yeah, it's certainly a clown world out there.
> 
> Lets take a look at WA. Case numbers are increasing, yet restrictions are loosening. Hmm, a real pandemic. Does that not strike anyone as strange? The same scenario has pretty much happened everywhere in Australia and many parts of the world.



Yeah, they throw open borders and export it all to other states again. Shouldn't they stay locked down to stop the spread of a "deadly" virus?

It's an odd strategy. The whole thing was a lesson in stupidity.


----------



## noirua (6 March 2022)

Hong Kong public hospitals hanging by a thread amid surge of fifth-wave Covid cases​58,124 views
Mar 4, 2022


----------



## IFocus (6 March 2022)

DB008 said:


> Yeah, it's certainly a clown world out there.
> 
> Lets take a look at WA. Case numbers are increasing, yet restrictions are loosening. Hmm, a real pandemic. Does that not strike anyone as strange? The same scenario has pretty much happened everywhere in Australia and many parts of the world.




No they have upped the restrictions (4mt square rule, hospital visitor numbers, RAT tests for nursing home entry  etc) and held off border opening for vax rates to rise (mainly indigenous far north WA).

The rest of Oz (many in WA as well for that matter) are not aware of the large number indigenous communities in WA.


----------



## sptrawler (6 March 2022)

noirua said:


> Hong Kong public hospitals hanging by a thread amid surge of fifth-wave Covid cases​58,124 views
> Mar 4, 2022




I wonder if Hong Kong has a new strain of covid, they seem to taking it very seriously, testing everyone.


----------



## rederob (6 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder if Hong Kong has a new strain of covid, they seem to taking it very seriously, testing everyone.



No, it's Omicron.
Hong Kong has had a policy of hospitalising evey covid case.  Overrun by numbers this could not continue.
Having the population equivalent of NSW tucked into the equivalent of Sydney has no doubt exacerbated spread, and its comparatively high number of older people will contribute to a relatively high death rate.
It has not helped that Hong Kong also has relatively low rates of 2-dose and boosted vaccinations:


----------



## DB008 (6 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder if Hong Kong has a new strain of covid, they seem to taking it very seriously, testing everyone.




Or it's just CCP propaganda


----------



## wayneL (9 March 2022)

Me: *arrives at  property to plate two gallopers and about 3 hours worth of work with youngstock

Trainer: (after I've nearly finished the second galloper) Do you mind if we do the others next week I've got this flu coming on and I don't really feel well.

Me: Sure, no probs, but how do you know it isn't the beer bug.

Trainer: Oh no, it can't be, I am double jabbed.

LMAO

So maybe next week I'll be telling you my personal wuflu story. Qué Sera Sera.


----------



## IFocus (9 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Me: *arrives at  property to plate two gallopers and about 3 hours worth of work with youngstock
> 
> Trainer: (after I've nearly finished the second galloper) Do you mind if we do the others next week I've got this flu coming on and I don't really feel well.
> 
> ...





Surrounded by cases at the moment and I expect to pick it up soon.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2022)

Brad Hazzard concerned at rise of COVID-19 Omicron sub-variant BA2, flags case spike​








						Health authorities worried about Omicron sub-variant as case numbers in NSW rise
					

Brad Hazzard says new data shows the BA.2 sub-variant is becoming the dominant Omicron offshoot, and COVID-19 cases could "more than double" in weeks.




					www.abc.net.au
				




_"People need to understand that while the community has gone to sleep on the virus, the virus hasn't gone to sleep on the community."_


One might ask that if the government was concerned that the public had 'gone to sleep on covid', why did they remove simple preventatives like the mask mandate ?


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2022)

Well just received our 5 free RAT test packs, so I thought best to try one out to get the hang of it, it came up negative I feel as though I'm a failure.
But I did say to the wife, if I twirl the swab around my nostrils, then she does hers, we can save on tests. 
Now I've lost reception again, she is all picture no sound. 🤣


----------



## macca (11 March 2022)

NZ doctors group have a website talking about early treatments if we get Covid.

As Omicron and it's variants seem to ignore vaccines as far as catching it goes, I thought some suggestions for OTC things that claim to help may be of interest.

Folk are not ending up in ICU but many are quite ill in my circle so hopefully these suggestions might assist someone.

<<What You Can Do at Home if You Get Sick​September 20, 2021
Here is our protocol for all strains of Covid-19, along with what you can do to prevent getting sick.>>









						What You Can Do at Home if You Get Sick | NZ Doctors Speaking Out With Science
					

Here is our protocol for all strains of Covid-19, along with what you can do to prevent getting sick.




					nzdsos.com
				




PDF of treatments


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

Is this going to be never ending?









						Fears emerge over new hybrid Covid strain Deltacron: 'The real thing'
					

Cases of a hybrid variant of Covid-19 have been confirmed in Europe, the UK and the US. See what the experts think about the new Deltacron.




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



The team at IHU described three patients in France infected with a version of SARS-CoV-2 that combines the spike protein from an Omicron variant with the "body" of a Delta variant.

There have also been two unrelated Deltacron infections identified in the US, according to a yet-to-be published report from genetics research company Helix, which was seen by Reuters.


----------



## DB008 (12 March 2022)

Lets go back 6 months

Does this make any sense now?






Your browser is not able to display this video.




Looking back on it, yes it does
Omicron was just a flash in the pan
Covid-19 is all over now (except in WA)
The narrative is now Ukraine, but be aware, there is still a 'stealth' BA2 stain going around




.
.


----------



## rederob (13 March 2022)

macca said:


> NZ doctors group have a website talking about early treatments if we get Covid.
> 
> As Omicron and it's variants seem to ignore vaccines as far as catching it goes, I thought some suggestions for OTC things that claim to help may be of interest.
> 
> ...



Perhaps you can tell us more about these NZ doctors who appear to be offside with NZ's medical association and the government.  
From what I have read they are as close to anti-vaxxers as you can get without coming out and saying so.

Most people contracting covid need few if any treatments, so if they are relatively young, fit and healthy their recovery is generally smooth.
Most people vaxxed and boosted will be in the same boat irrespective of age.
Comorbidities make the big difference, especially so for those unvaxxed.
At some point we might know more about the people who fall between the cracks, ie. those relatively young and healthy but who still succumb to serious illness and occasional death.


----------



## moXJO (14 March 2022)

Getting a second round of covid go through nsw. Was around a family that had it but didn't catch it. No booster shot.


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2022)

Well our extended family down the SW of W.A are in 7 days isolation, the three grandkids have got it, so it will be interesting to see how it unfolds.


----------



## moXJO (14 March 2022)

Apparently a 4th shot is now a must as the vaccines don't last long. Get prepared for a yearly dose. 

I'm going to sit it out.


----------



## moXJO (14 March 2022)

China's zero covid strategy has failed. And if they couldn't do it, no one with a decent population would have much luck.


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Apparently a 4th shot is now a must as the vaccines don't last long. Get prepared for a yearly dose.
> 
> I'm going to sit it out.






moXJO said:


> China's zero covid strategy has failed. And if they couldn't do it, no one with a decent population would have much luck.



But we don't know what it is, it is just another SAR virus, nothing to see here, no way this was this man made. A bat fell on a frog, with its penis out and was being love bitten by an infected toad at the time.


----------



## noirua (15 March 2022)

As the portmanteau suggests, Deltacron is a Covid variant that contains elements of Delta and Omicron – in other words, it contains genes from both variants, making it what is known as a recombinant virus.








						What is the Deltacron variant of Covid and where has it been found?
					

Another new coronavirus variant has been identified, this one containing elements of Delta and Omicron




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## noirua (15 March 2022)

Cases are rising again and deaths in the UK probably caused by the recombinant virus. 








						England Summary | Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK
					

Official Coronavirus (COVID-19) disease situation dashboard with latest data in the UK.




					coronavirus.data.gov.uk


----------



## wayneL (15 March 2022)

I had a meeting with a real estate agent today. She triple jabbed, me unjabbed. We both know each other's jab status.

She double masked, me unmasked.

A delicious irony.

Hahaha the world is ridiculous!


----------



## macca (15 March 2022)

I can't help wondering does China know something that we don't ?

They are desperately trying to achieve zero cases, is it a power play or is there something long term about Covid that we have not been told ?
<<
China has locked down more than 50 million people following a Covid outbreak which has been branded as “the most difficult moment in the last two years”.
There are about 11,000 active cases in the nation that is relentlessly pursuing a zero-Covid policy.>>



			https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/china-orders-largest-lockdown-in-two-years-after-covid-outbreak/news-story/eeb0ff58e65ca66ab01ee1c4d00242c9


----------



## mullokintyre (15 March 2022)

macca said:


> I can't help wondering does China know something that we don't ?



Nah, they are just a bunch of ar$ehole$.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (15 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Me: *arrives at  property to plate two gallopers and about 3 hours worth of work with youngstock
> 
> Trainer: (after I've nearly finished the second galloper) Do you mind if we do the others next week I've got this flu coming on and I don't really feel well.
> 
> ...



So, got the call today that quoted person has tested positive.

Doing all the necessary bulshit, but both Mrs and I are feeling well enough to be farking dangerous.

... We are not even taking horse wormer


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> So, got the call today that quoted person has tested positive.
> 
> Doing all the necessary bulshit, but both Mrs and I are feeling well enough to be farking dangerous.
> 
> ... We are not even taking horse wormer



I will tell you how bad Australia is getting, the daughter in law just got a call from the police for not wearing a mask when picking up her bin.

Now to put that in context they live on a 100 acre block that is serviced by a gravel road, the nearest town is 20klm away and the nearest house about 3 klm, where the gravel road joins the bitumen it is a 110klm zone, that is where the bin is left.
Why would someone bother their ar$e to ring the police, to say she wasn't wearing a mask when she put the bin in the back of the ute, there was none else there only one neighbour drove by.
 Australians are turning into very strange people.


----------



## moXJO (16 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I will tell you how bad Australia is getting, the daughter in law just got a call from the police for not wearing a mask when picking up her bin.
> 
> Now to put that in context they live on a 100 acre block that is serviced by a gravel road, the nearest town is 20klm away and the nearest house about 3 klm, where the gravel road joins the bitumen it is a 110klm zone, that is where the bin is left.
> Why would someone bother their ar$e to ring the police, to say she wasn't wearing a mask when she put the bin in the back of the ute, there was none else there only one neighbour drove by.
> Australians are turning into very strange people.



Are you in WA?


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Are you in WA?



Yep, it is stupid, everyone feels is their obligation to report someone no matter how ridiculous the scenario, it would make more sense for her to be reported for not employing a traffic controller so she could pick up the bin safely.
If the son finds out who reported her, I wouldn't want to in their shoes, he will tear them a new ar$e and he is big enough to do it. 🤣


----------



## macca (16 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yep, it is stupid, everyone feels is their obligation to report someone no matter how ridiculous the scenario, it would make more sense for her to be reported for not employing a traffic controller so she could pick up the bin safely.
> If the son finds out who reported her, I wouldn't want to in their shoes, he will tear them a new ar$e and he is big enough to do it. 🤣




It is sad really, instead of helping each other through a difficult time some people want to lash out and hurt others.

Maybe they get to feel virtuous for being oh so perfect...... 

Be interesting if you find out who and then one day they need help.


----------



## wayneL (16 March 2022)

Bloody hell! And the stupid coppers thought it was worthy of following it up? Just WTF?


----------



## moXJO (16 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yep, it is stupid, everyone feels is their obligation to report someone no matter how ridiculous the scenario, it would make more sense for her to be reported for not employing a traffic controller so she could pick up the bin safely.
> If the son finds out who reported her, I wouldn't want to in their shoes, he will tear them a new ar$e and he is big enough to do it. 🤣



So that's what Humids been up to.


----------



## noirua (21 March 2022)

Deltacron and Stealth Omicron differences explained as Covid infections in UK surge
					

Two new Covid-19 variants are surging across the globe but what exactly are they? And should we be worried?




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

Well we did say this could happen, after the media wound up the ranters and chanters, to force quarantine facilies to be built. Hopefully another pandemic comes and hangs around, so we can maybe use them.
I guess the good thing is, we didn't need it, it would be terrible if we still needed it now.









						Bullsbrook facility risks becoming white elephant if government finds no use for it
					

WA Premier Mark McGowan said his government was working through options for what the facility could be used for.




					www.watoday.com.au
				



The West Australian government does not know what it will use the Bullsbrook quarantine facility for after construction delays rendered it useless for the current COVID-19 health response.
The federal government is building the 500-bed ‘Centre for National Resilience’ quarantine facility to aid the state’s COVID-19 response and intended to hand it over to the WA government, which will operate it, by March 31.


----------



## macca (31 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well we did say this could happen, after the media wound up the ranters and chanters, to force quarantine facilies to be built. Hopefully another pandemic comes and hangs around, so we can maybe use them.
> I guess the good thing is, we didn't need it, it would be terrible if we still needed it now.
> 
> 
> ...



If/when labor win the election they could put all the new boat people in there except they would probably complain that it is not good enough for them


----------



## wayneL (31 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well we did say this could happen, after the media wound up the ranters and chanters, to force quarantine facilies to be built. Hopefully another pandemic comes and hangs around, so we can maybe use them.
> I guess the good thing is, we didn't need it, it would be terrible if we still needed it now.
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps a holding facility after Nuremberg 2.0?


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

Just had a call from the youngest daughter, they all caught covid, hubby double vaxxed, daughter single vaxxed, kids nothing.
She said it was pretty horrific, the SIL suffered least, the kids were really crook and spitting due to a bad taste in their mouths and the daughter was bedridden.
She said it is really bad and she isn't one to exaggerate. So I found that interesting, but 7 days later they are all good thankfully.


----------



## moXJO (31 March 2022)

I think I caught it again. Fever, then Gastro for a few days. The type of gastro where every fart is a shart kinda deal.  Talk about a new wave cleanse. I almost turned inside out. 
2 days of symptoms 
Probably 5 days till back to ok.


----------



## macca (1 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> I think I caught it again. Fever, then Gastro for a few days. The type of gastro where every fart is a shart kinda deal.  Talk about a new wave cleanse. I almost turned inside out.
> 2 days of symptoms
> Probably 5 days till back to ok.



Drat ! seems to be doing that, a few celebs have been in the news with recurring Covid.

I have read that it is best to take 'whatever you are taking for it" for at least two weeks after you get well.

Hopefully you win the battle a bit quicker this time


----------



## moXJO (1 April 2022)

macca said:


> Drat ! seems to be doing that, a few celebs have been in the news with recurring Covid.
> 
> I have read that it is best to take 'whatever you are taking for it" for at least two weeks after you get well.
> 
> Hopefully you win the battle a bit quicker this time



It's gone and passed. Wasn't that bad really.


----------



## DB008 (2 April 2022)

Your browser is not able to display this video.



​​Mortality in children from influenza and respiratory syncytial virus​
From March 2020 to February 2021, UK data suggested that for those aged <18, the absolute mortality risk from SARS-CoV-2 infection was 2 per 1,000,000 infections, which is to say that those aged <18 incurred a 0.0002% chance of death from SARS-CoV-2 infection.

To put these figures into their proper context, consider the following:

“Average winter respiratory deaths attributed to influenza in children 1 month–14 years were 22 and to RSV [respiratory syncytial virus] 28; and all cause deaths to influenza 78 and to RSV 79. All cause RSV attributed deaths in infants 1–12 months exceeded those for influenza every year except 1989/90; ... Corresponding rates for children 1–4 years were 0.9 and 0.8 [per 100,000] and for older children all rates were 0.2 or less, except for an influenza rate of 0.4 in children 10–14 years.”

Therefore, more children in England between 1 month and 14 years of age died either of influenza or respiratory syncytial virus over two winters than did children <16 of COVID-19 in all of the UK during the alpha and delta waves:

78 (influenza) > 44 (COVID-19)
79 (RSV) > 44 (COVID-19)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15965143/​
For young people, infection by SARS-CoV-2 could be even less deadly than infection by influenza or RSV.



.​


----------



## wayneL (2 April 2022)

Well done humanity


----------



## moXJO (2 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Well done humanity




There was enormous amounts of mask waste near me. It was absolutely stupid. Like I said, they did bugger all because 99% probably were not using them correctly.


----------



## Humid (4 April 2022)

Herd immunity









						Column: Did Sweden beat the pandemic by refusing to lock down? No, its record is disastrous
					

A new study shows just how badly Sweden fared in the pandemic.




					www.latimes.com


----------



## moXJO (4 April 2022)

Humid said:


> Herd immunity
> 
> 
> 
> ...



'LA times' is a bit of a bake sale.


----------



## Humid (5 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> 'LA times' is a bit of a bake sale.


----------



## Humid (5 April 2022)

Don't get old


----------



## wayneL (8 April 2022)




----------



## wayneL (9 April 2022)

Just a little bit of bad news for the petty tyrants:









						Terminations of unvaxxed Police and NZDF staff suspended after High Court upholds challenge to mandate
					

Police have said no staff will be terminated while the government considers the decision.




					www.nzherald.co.nz


----------



## moXJO (9 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Just a little bit of bad news for the petty tyrants:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think Germany dropped their mandates as well?


----------



## DB008 (9 April 2022)

*Remember when MSM labeled 'natural immunity' a conspiracy theory in 2020?*











The narrative is collapsing...


.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 April 2022)

We have now passed the 5 million cases mark, a tad under 20% of the population.
At the current rate, of 350 to 400k per week, we should reach  50% of folks having a case by  September.
So at what point is the pop of OZ considered to have developed herd immunity??
Mick


----------



## macca (9 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> We have now passed the 5 million cases mark, a tad under 20% of the population.
> At the current rate, of 350 to 400k per week, we should reach  50% of folks having a case by  September.
> So at what point is the pop of OZ considered to have developed herd immunity??
> Mick



If the official count is 5 mil then you can at least double that, around here people between 18-30 years just let it rip.

Sick ? stay home in bed until the weekend then go for it.............

Neighbour nurse said all her kids (18, 21) friends have had it, my grandkids and their friends and flat mates (21-25)all had it.

In Argyle House, Newcastle 2 positive people gave it to 250 people in 4 hours so imagine what 12 sick people can do over a weekend when they go out Friday and Saturday nights while positive.

Probably a good thing actually, they have all had it so should not give it anyone to infect when new variant comes around.


----------



## mullokintyre (12 April 2022)

Wife the Pharmacist pointed this out to me when searching for some other stuff on ATAGI.
ATAGI advice on sedation of patients when administering COVID vaccines.







I guess its one way  to fix up those recalcitrant anti vaxers, but the last sentence will I am sure soothe any scared patients.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (12 April 2022)

Mystery surrounds unexpected jump in triple-0 calls for an ambulance in Queensland
					

There were 3,789 calls to triple-0 for an ambulance yesterday, a volume that rivalled those made during the state's COVID-19 wave in January.




					www.abc.net.au
				



But why but why..ask Shane or Nadar 🙄


----------



## wayneL (14 April 2022)

Context:


----------



## DB008 (16 April 2022)

​Ivermectin Prophylaxis Used for COVID-19: A Citywide, Prospective, Observational Study of 223,128 Subjects Using Propensity Score Matching​

Abstract​
*Background: *Ivermectin has demonstrated different mechanisms of action that potentially protect from both coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) infection and COVID-19-related comorbidities. Based on the studies suggesting efficacy in prophylaxis combined with the known safety profile of ivermectin, a citywide prevention program using ivermectin for COVID-19 was implemented in Itajaí, a southern city in Brazil in the state of Santa Catarina. The objective of this study was to evaluate the impact of regular ivermectin use on subsequent COVID-19 infection and mortality rates.​​*Materials and methods: *We analyzed data from a prospective, observational study of the citywide COVID-19 prevention with ivermectin program, which was conducted between July 2020 and December 2020 in Itajaí, Brazil. Study design, institutional review board approval, and analysis of registry data occurred after completion of the program. The program consisted of inviting the entire population of Itajaí to a medical visit to enroll in the program and to compile baseline, personal, demographic, and medical information. In the absence of contraindications, ivermectin was offered as an optional treatment to be taken for two consecutive days every 15 days at a dose of 0.2 mg/kg/day. In cases where a participating citizen of Itajaí became ill with COVID-19, they were recommended not to use ivermectin or any other medication in early outpatient treatment. Clinical outcomes of infection, hospitalization, and death were automatically reported and entered into the registry in real time. Study analysis consisted of comparing ivermectin users with non-users using cohorts of infected patients propensity score-matched by age, sex, and comorbidities. COVID-19 infection and mortality rates were analyzed with and without the use of propensity score matching (PSM).​​*Results: *Of the 223,128 citizens of Itajaí considered for the study, a total of 159,561 subjects were included in the analysis: 113,845 (71.3%) regular ivermectin users and 45,716 (23.3%) non-users. Of these, 4,311 ivermectin users were infected, among which 4,197 were from the city of Itajaí (3.7% infection rate), and 3,034 non-users (from Itajaí) were infected (6.6% infection rate), with a 44% reduction in COVID-19 infection rate (risk ratio [RR], 0.56; 95% confidence interval (95% CI), 0.53-0.58; p < 0.0001). Using PSM, two cohorts of 3,034 subjects suffering from COVID-19 infection were compared. The regular use of ivermectin led to a 68% reduction in COVID-19 mortality (25 [0.8%] versus 79 [2.6%] among ivermectin non-users; RR, 0.32; 95% CI, 0.20-0.49; p < 0.0001). When adjusted for residual variables, reduction in mortality rate was 70% (RR, 0.30; 95% CI, 0.19-0.46; p < 0.0001). There was a 56% reduction in hospitalization rate (44 versus 99 hospitalizations among ivermectin users and non-users, respectively; RR, 0.44; 95% CI, 0.31-0.63; p < 0.0001). After adjustment for residual variables, reduction in hospitalization rate was 67% (RR, 0.33; 95% CI, 023-0.66; p < 0.0001).​​*Conclusion: *In this large PSM study, regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic agent was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and mortality rates.​

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35070575/

.​


----------



## DB008 (18 April 2022)

.​


----------



## mullokintyre (19 April 2022)

Had the kids, grandchildren and even  the dog up for easter.
One of them woke up this morning feeling poorly, wife dragged out the RATs, and bingo two positive tests Monday morning.
Everyone packed up early and hitailed it outa town.
Both myself and the Wife tested negative, which has ruined my attempt  to string out my time as not ever having a test.
Will know in the next few days how many of the family have been added to the 1.4 million victorians already recorded.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (21 April 2022)

Does WA still have a mask mandate?


----------



## mullokintyre (21 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Had the kids, grandchildren and even  the dog up for easter.
> One of them woke up this morning feeling poorly, wife dragged out the RATs, and bingo two positive tests Monday morning.
> Everyone packed up early and hitailed it outa town.
> Both myself and the Wife tested negative, which has ruined my attempt  to string out my time as not ever having a test.
> ...



Ok, now up to three family members with the rona.
Still  no symptoms for me or the missus.
Will have another test friday, then i'm outa here.
Mick


----------



## wayneL (21 April 2022)

moXJO said:


> Does WA still have a mask mandate?



Yes McMao is still enforcing it.


----------



## moXJO (21 April 2022)

wayneL said:


> Yes McMao is still enforcing it.



That is insane.


----------



## DB008 (21 April 2022)

2 more work colleagues tested positive this week to the Rona.

Very mild symptoms for a few days, thats it.


----------



## noirua (24 April 2022)

1,300 cases of new Covid variant found in UK
					

The UKHSA has released new data on the strain, which is a combination of two types of Omicron




					www.stokesentinel.co.uk
				



Almost 1,300 cases of a new variant of Covid have been found in the UK, according to new figures released by the UK Health Security Agency on Friday. 1,293 cases of V-22APR-02 have been found in England and one has been found in Northern Ireland, according to UKHSA.

The new variant has been recorded on the UKHSA update for the first time. V-22APR-02 is the UK's official designation for a variant previously named Omicron XE.


----------



## sptrawler (24 April 2022)

The donga in the desert is up and running, now all Queensland needs is another pandemic, meanwhile someone will be killing the pig running it. 🤣









						'It will continue to be used': Plan to send COVID-positive cruise passengers to Wellcamp
					

The Queensland opposition is criticising a suggestion by the Attorney-General that the Wellcamp quarantine facility could be used for COVID-positive cruise ship passengers.




					www.abc.net.au
				



Earlier this year, a government source revealed the state contributed $48.8 million towards the construction of the facility, while media reports have speculated that the total price tag for the first year of operation would be $190 million.


Queensland isn't the only one, I wonder how long it will be before a mining company gets a good deal on second hand donga's  🤣









						Mickleham quarantine capacity doubles just as isolation rules end for unvaccinated travellers
					

In the lead-up to Victoria ending its requirement for international travellers to isolate, the purpose-built COVID-19 quarantine facility in Mickleham doubled its capacity with an extra 500 beds.




					www.theage.com.au
				



In the lead-up to Victoria ending its requirement for international travellers to isolate, the purpose-built COVID-19 quarantine facility in Mickleham has doubled its capacity with an extra 500 beds left unused.
The $580 million 1000-bed hub will no longer take international arrivals from this weekend after the state government scrapped its quarantine rules just two months into the centre’s operation.


----------



## qldfrog (26 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The donga in the desert is up and running, now all Queensland needs is another pandemic, meanwhile someone will be killing the pig running it. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I can not ROL..i pay for it.....
And they dare attending anzac ceremonies


----------



## mullokintyre (26 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The donga in the desert is up and running, now all Queensland needs is another pandemic, meanwhile someone will be killing the pig running it. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We  had this discussion very early on when these facilities were proposed.
There were some skeptical folk posting, some other folk calling them phillistines, RWCT's etc etc.
Whats that rumbling I hear you ask?
Its the sound of hundreds of white elephants stampeding for relevance.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (26 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Ok, now up to three family members with the rona.
> Still  no symptoms for me or the missus.
> Will have another test friday, then i'm outa here.
> Mick



Well, it seems we dodged the rona.
now had four negative tests.
had an appointment first thing this morning to get a fourth  booster and the flu injection.
When I got there the Doc said that the rona virus stock had all expired, and the flu shots had not been delivered.
A bit pissed off, especially as he charged me 73 bucks for the wasted trip.
mick


----------



## mullokintyre (27 April 2022)

Some interesting data out of the US overnight
From ABC News


> Three out of every four US children have been infected with the coronavirus and more than half of all Americans have signs of previous infections, according to a report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
> 
> Key points:​
> The researchers examined blood samples from more than 200,000 Americans
> ...



Once again, the surprised tone of the researcher shows that so many of the assumptions made by experts are miles out.
Would be really interesting to see similar tests done here in OZ.
I strongly suspect it will show similar outcomes.
Mick


----------



## DB008 (2 May 2022)

From the Financial Times






​
.


----------



## moXJO (3 May 2022)

There is currently a flu floating around with worse symptoms then the current strain of covid. Wipes you out for about a week solid. 

Unfortunately all these lockdowns lowered immunity to everything else.


----------



## macca (3 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> There is currently a flu floating around with worse symptoms then the current strain of covid. Wipes you out for about a week solid.
> 
> Unfortunately all these lockdowns lowered immunity to everything else.




There are also plenty of Docs OS saying that the vaccine lowers the bodies ability to fight other viruses, they also suggest that it lowers the bodies ability to fight a few other things as well.

I hope to hell they are wrong But amongst my circle of friends there are strange things happening healthwise.


----------



## moXJO (5 May 2022)

macca said:


> I hope to hell they are wrong But amongst my circle of friends there are strange things happening healthwise.



I agree with this. My heart was stuffed for ages.


----------



## macca (5 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> I agree with this. My heart was stuffed for ages.




Funny you should say that, we have two people with heart wobbles as well.

They are trying a magnesium supplement, they have read that Mg is good for the heart so some DD may be worth a look 

Hopefully it helps them


----------



## wayneL (5 May 2022)

I have 2 close farrier associates that are severely compromised with myocarditis after the jabs, both unable to do more than about 30% of their former workload.


----------



## moXJO (5 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> I have 2 close farrier associates that are severely compromised with myocarditis after the jabs, both unable to do more than about 30% of their former workload.



It's taken me a long time. But I think I'm back to where I was. Taken about a year. 

Heart damage is generally permanent damage though.


----------



## IFocus (6 May 2022)

I have cardio vascular disease, a heart attack will likely take me out, had three jabs plus flu jab yesterday  and jumping out of my skin, swell was running the other day and surfed twice, 2nd session taking sets on the head with young fellas and hanging in there...just.


----------



## moXJO (7 May 2022)

IFocus said:


> I have cardio vascular disease, a heart attack will likely take me out, had three jabs plus flu jab yesterday  and jumping out of my skin, swell was running the other day and surfed twice, 2nd session taking sets on the head with young fellas and hanging in there...just.



My second shot was fine. First one was the killer.


----------



## IFocus (7 May 2022)

moXJO said:


> My second shot was fine. First one was the killer.





Yeah young blokes like yourself certainly are at higher risk with vaccine problems, see J & J have had their vaccine restricted in the US due to adverse events


----------



## wayneL (12 May 2022)

So it seems finally, according to a RAT, I've caught the beer bug.

Last night I felt a bit of a sore throat coming on, by morning well and truly on fire... Mid morning felt achey.

This afternoon though I don't feel 100%, the sore throat is gone, as are the aching muscles. 

Haven't taken anything, no nsaids, horse wormers, ketamine... nuttin'.

And at this stage I feel like it's pretty much all over.


----------



## IFocus (12 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> So it seems finally, according to a RAT, I've caught the beer bug.
> 
> Last night I felt a bit of a sore throat coming on, by morning well and truly on fire... Mid morning felt achey.
> 
> ...




Hope you fair well many have said to me the 2nd week have felt run down.

Stay well and good luck.


----------



## macca (12 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> So it seems finally, according to a RAT, I've caught the beer bug.
> 
> Last night I felt a bit of a sore throat coming on, by morning well and truly on fire... Mid morning felt achey.
> 
> ...



Because your job is physically demanding it may be worth taking it easy for a while, I have read that people who go back to work too soon can relapse.

Sit in the sun and put your feet up ⛱️


----------



## wayneL (13 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> So it seems finally, according to a RAT, I've caught the beer bug.
> 
> Last night I felt a bit of a sore throat coming on, by morning well and truly on fire... Mid morning felt achey.
> 
> ...



Today, apart from the gelatinous yellow/green ick coming from my sinuses, I feel pretty much normal.

I have a sense that if wasn't breathing in sublimated keratin as a result of my job, I probably would be completely back to normal by now as my sinuses are always in protest of what I breath in on a daily basis.

I will wait another day or two to do another RAT.


----------



## wayneL (15 May 2022)

Update: still have a bit of a runny nose, but otherwise feel completely fine.... In fact I've been taking the opportunity to do heaps of work around the property.

It's pretty much like a typical cold TBH... Sans histrionics of the last couple of years I would have thought I've got just that, a typical cold.


----------



## Eager (15 May 2022)

^ A RAT told me on Friday that I had finally been caught up. Similar to you, most colds are worse.

Tell me, have you noticed losing your sense of smell or taste? I have. It's a strange feeling, the only way you know what you're eating or drinking apart from sight is due to the texture of the stuff in your mouth.


----------



## wayneL (15 May 2022)

Sense of smell is a bit down due to stuffy nose, @Eager, but no probs with taste.


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

Don't know where to put this article, but it does kind of blend into this covid over the top authoritarian regime, that we are readily adopting.
It will obviously flow over into other aspects of security enforcement, as those in charge were given unprecedented powers, so the flow on effect has to be expected IMO.
I think the Premiers, extending their god like status legislation, isn't helping. 😂 
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05...disability-discrimination-complaint/101068140
From the article:
Australia's former Disability Discrimination Commissioner Graeme Innes has described his transit through Adelaide Airport security on Friday as "humiliating" and "distressing".

Key points:​
Graeme Innes says he was discriminated against at Adelaide Airport
He is calling for better training for security staff on interacting with people with a disability
The airport has apologised in a statement

Mr Innes was returning home to Queensland after a business trip in Adelaide when he tried to use the security body scanner while holding onto his guide dog's lead.

He said he was refused access to use the body scanner and was asked to use a walk-through X-ray scanner, with his guide dog put through separately.

His colleague then had to intervene and question airport staff once a security guard said Mr Innes needed a pat down despite him not triggering the security alarm.


----------



## Eager (15 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Sense of smell is a bit down due to stuffy nose, @Eager, but no probs with taste.



It's interesting, I didn't even realise that my taste buds weren't working properly until after I tested positive and I put 2 and 2 together. I just thought that the eggs benny I bought for breakfast before I tested myself that morning was bland. One advantage of not being able to taste properly though, is that cheap wine seems just as good as the expensive stuff, lol!


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

Eager said:


> It's interesting, I didn't even realise that my taste buds weren't working properly until after I tested positive and I put 2 and 2 together. I just thought that the eggs benny I bought for breakfast before I tested myself that morning was bland. One advantage of not being able to taste properly though, is that cheap wine seems just as good as the expensive stuff, lol!



And really eggs benny may be a waste of money, just get the poached eggs and carry some sauce in your pocket. 😂


----------



## wayneL (16 May 2022)

Here in the People's Republic of McStalinstan, they are preparing we plebeians for another lockdown... Either for the Wuhan cold or the seasonal flu.

All the signs are there, extension of emergency powers, minor politicians and bureaucrats calling for mask mandates etc.... Fear pr0n ramping up exponentially

If after the election we don't get lockdown again or at least have mask mandates reinstated I will eat my hat.

In other news I am completely over that Wuhan cold. Worked all day today (though got clients to bring the horses to my place put them in the yards so no contact), no problems whatsoever.

If I felt any better I would be dangerous


----------



## Eager (16 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> If I felt any better I would be dangerous



Same. I'm fine. Missus still has a bit of a cough and a bit of lethargy; I keep reminding her what will fix her but I keep getting filthy looks.


----------



## wayneL (17 May 2022)

Eager said:


> Same. I'm fine. Missus still has a bit of a cough and a bit of lethargy; I keep reminding her what will fix her but I keep getting filthy looks.



My Mrs was a bit achy and a bit off for a couple of days about two weekends ago, no other symptoms so didn't test her at the time. We assume now it could have been the beer bug and I may have caught it from her, as she is good as gold now and testing neg.


----------



## IFocus (17 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Here in the People's Republic of McStalinstan, they are preparing we plebeians for another lockdown... Either for the Wuhan cold or the seasonal flu.
> 
> All the signs are there, extension of emergency powers, minor politicians and bureaucrats calling for mask mandates etc.... Fear pr0n ramping up exponentially
> 
> ...




Still take care and don't over cook it goods news so far hope it continues, you too @Eager


----------



## Knobby22 (17 May 2022)

My Mum is 84 and she caught Covid on Friday.  She had received her 4th vax about 4 weeks earlier so has excellent immunity.
No issues, she is just a bit lethargic. Her GP has given her the anti viral to be safe but really I don't think she needs it.

i see deaths have climbed to about 50 a day Australia wide but with cases increasing to 50,000 a day now, the less deadly version of the virus, vaccines and the two new anti viral treatments we are in a reasonable space.









						Charting the COVID-19 spread: Australia passes 10,000 coronavirus deaths
					

Australia has officially recorded more than 10,000 COVID deaths in total, with 4,000 of those recorded in Victoria. Here's what the latest data shows.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## macca (17 May 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> My Mum is 84 and she caught Covid on Friday.  She had received her 4th vax about 4 weeks earlier so has excellent immunity.
> No issues, she is just a bit lethargic. Her GP has given her the anti viral to be safe but really I don't think she needs it.
> 
> i see deaths have climbed to about 50 a day Australia wide but with cases increasing to 50,000 a day now, the less deadly version of the virus, vaccines and the two new anti viral treatments we are in a reasonable space.
> ...




I wish her well and hope she is up and about soon.


----------



## wayneL (17 May 2022)

Re the unjabbed v jabbed scenario, I think you all know by now that both Mrs and I are unjabbed and in our early 60s (but both otherwise in rude health).

We know a lot of unjabbed people, but of those, we are the only ones who have actually caught it at this point in time. Worth noting that we haven't taken any sort of medication for it at all, apart from me taking a bit of aspirin on one day.

Comparing us with everyone else that we no who have caught it, we have certainly been on the milder side the bell curve. Me I would be guessing around one standard deviation and Mrs probably getting close to 2 standard deviations (small sample size so take that for what it's worth).

In-laws are in the 90s so we have dodged them, just in case. (Triple jabbed)

Bro and Sis in law (triple jabbed) we have found at got it a couple of weeks ago and got quite sick. 

All in all it does seem to tally up with the pffffftizer data dumps thus far (12% efficacy after 3 jabs for a very short time and compromised immune systems).

Feeling pretty vindicated at the moment.


----------



## Eager (17 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Feeling pretty vindicated at the moment.



Maybe you should be feeling pretty lucky at the moment instead.

Unjabbed? That was obviously your decision to make and I'm not here to judge you. I will suggest though that had you caught the Delta strain way back when, your ability to cope with it might very well have been different to what it is now. It is pure luck that you hadn't caught it until now. I should have caught it 3 months ago when it ripped through my workplace in two days, except that I wasn't there that week. Luck.


----------



## wayneL (17 May 2022)

Eager said:


> Maybe you should be feeling pretty lucky at the moment instead.
> 
> Unjabbed? That was obviously your decision to make and I'm not here to judge you. I will suggest though that had you caught the Delta strain way back when, your ability to cope with it might very well have been different to what it is now. It is pure luck that you hadn't caught it until now. I should have caught it 3 months ago when it ripped through my workplace in two days, except that I wasn't there that week. Luck.




No I don't feel lucky. We have spent our lives augmenting our health and immune systems, to the best of our knowledge.

We are not, nor ever have been on any sort of medication, apart from the occasional NSAID or antibiotic, both both standing heart rates under 60.

In fact, there is a possibility that we caught Delta way back in April 2020 as we have some symptoms then. Unfortunately I cannot prove that either way as there was no testing available.

Good health requires both diligence and hard work, but as such is available to every person in our society unless they have some sort of genetic compromise... And I do feel for those people, but they can help themselves in the same way as much as possible.

Where I do consider us lucky is that we do have good genes.


----------



## DB008 (17 May 2022)

Wayne - your symptoms sound similar to a work colleague l work with who got Covid a few months ago. Headache for half a day, thats it. Stay safe. For the record, l'm not getting any more jabs. l'm done with it. I played their game, it's now over.

There is also tons of data coming out from the USA that shows, without a shadow of a doubt, that "masks vs no masks", states were the same regarding infection rate. However, our media is now starting to turn up the 'we should return to wearing masks' dial. Masks should be optional, everywhere.







.​


----------



## DB008 (18 May 2022)

Currently in Brisbane Airport

Mask mandates in place at airport

I did a walk through both Qantas and Virgin terminals

My rough mask estimates -

Around 80% wearing masks
Of those 80%, at least 50% aren't fitted correctly
Maybe 5% - 10% are wearing K/N95 masks. Of those people, around 40% aren't wearing them correctly.
Kids under 10, none wearing masks. 

In the cafes, food courts & bars, 99%+ take off masks for eating/sitting.

It's all theatre/political posturing.

Masks should be optional at this point and we should be striving to get natural immunity from the Omicron strain asap, not stopping it.


----------



## wayneL (18 May 2022)

Hmmmm, I wonder what could've caused this?


----------



## wayneL (19 May 2022)

BOOM! Both barrels!


----------



## IFocus (19 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> BOOM! Both barrels!






Yeah nah smart guy (was?) but seems to have lost it (common sense missing?)


----------



## wayneL (19 May 2022)

Over a cold...

We are witnessing the death of liberal democracy folks.









						New $75k fines and jail time for Aussies who breach Covid rules
					

Anyone found breaching  Covid rules in South Australia could be punished with two years jail as harsh new laws are set to sail through state parliament this week.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Eager (19 May 2022)

^ Why are you quoting a Pommy RWNJ rag for something that may or may not be happening closer to home?


----------



## wayneL (20 May 2022)

Eager said:


> ^ Why are you quoting a Pommy RWNJ rag for something that may or may not be happening closer to home?




From the article:

"South Australian Labor premier introduces $75k fines"


----------



## qldfrog (20 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> From the article:
> 
> "South Australian Labor premier introduces $75k fines"



So after making people shake in their boots and wesring nappies on their faces to feel better
Here comes a real disease with respectively 1% and 10% fatality rate.
The monkey pox, the origin of the disease not being PC, the dynamic northern part of the African  continent is minimising the media coverage and focusing on Putin
I would suggest we start euthanasy by poll to avoid hospital system collapse and lockdown any person within 100km of detected case with martial laws reinstated?
This is more than 100 times worse than covid...
I am a monkey pox expert, give ABC and News ltd  my contacts please,bulk billing for 10+ interviews....


			https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.sciencealert.com/cases-of-rarely-seen-monkeypox-are-now-showing-up-in-spain-and-portugal/amp&ved=2ahUKEwj9wbSUv-z3AhW0T2wGHWmRAwEQr_oDKAB6BAgVEAE&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw1vfBom1xempv08WRXIpLjx


----------



## noirua (20 May 2022)

__





						Remdesivir Intravenous: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD
					

Find patient medical information for remdesivir intravenous on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## Eager (20 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> From the article:
> 
> "South Australian Labor premier introduces $75k fines"



I note that my question remains unanswered.

The article itself is misleading and in my opinion designed to keep the conspiracy theorists all het up. The fines have NOT been introduced. People will NOT go to jail for two years for failing to wear a mask on a tram. Normal parliamentary processes are yet to take place and it is up to the Libs to introduce amendments in the upper house to accompany the ones already forwarded by SA Best and the Greens, if they could be bothered. The legislation will see the promised removal of the Emergency Declaration, which was necessary but comparatively dictatorial compared to this.

I'll ask again. Why source the article from such a disreputable overseas publication? Is it because the way it was written suits your narrative? Don't you find it strange that there doesn't appear to be any locally produced articles themed similarly?


----------



## wayneL (20 May 2022)

Eager said:


> I note that my question remains unanswered.
> 
> The article itself is misleading and in my opinion designed to keep the conspiracy theorists all het up. The fines have NOT been introduced. People will NOT go to jail for two years for failing to wear a mask on a tram. Normal parliamentary processes are yet to take place and it is up to the Libs to introduce amendments in the upper house to accompany the ones already forwarded by SA Best and the Greens, if they could be bothered. The legislation will see the promised removal of the Emergency Declaration, which was necessary but comparatively dictatorial compared to this.
> 
> I'll ask again. Why source the article from such a disreputable overseas publication? Is it because the way it was written suits your narrative? Don't you find it strange that there doesn't appear to be any locally produced articles themed similarly?








						COVID-19 (Coronavirus) Directions and South Australia
					






					lsc.sa.gov.au


----------



## Eager (20 May 2022)

^ 🤣

That's an info page from a gov't department, not a piece of gutter journalism written or approved by someone with an agenda!

We can now surmise that because you can't find a local article written in a similar vein to the one from that Pommy rag that you love (neither could I), it is unique in the world for the way they have spun the story. Not even The Australian ran it, from what I could find. As such, we can also assume that that's the sort of stuff that you sniff out in a constant attempt to confirm your biases. I bet you don't even realise that you get sucked in by dog-whistling.

Even though you probably hate the ABC because it is critical of conspiracy theories, misinformation, sensationalism etc. you should at least read this article for balance: 








						SA government strikes deal with crossbench to end COVID emergency declaration
					

A deal has been struck to pass law changes through the state parliament's upper house that will modify how COVID will be managed in South Australia.




					www.abc.net.au
				




Doesn't seem so bad after all, does it?

Speaking of large fines and jail terms, is it any worse than this? Feel free to comment on the Morrison government's anti-capitalist stance!:


			https://www.health.gov.au/ministers/the-hon-greg-hunt-mp/media/government-prohibits-price-gouging-on-rapid-covid-tests


----------



## wayneL (20 May 2022)

Eager said:


> ^ 🤣
> 
> That's an info page from a gov't department, not a piece of gutter journalism written or approved by someone with an agenda!
> 
> ...



You may have noticed that I'm not a Scomo supporter, so **** off with your asinine straw man argument.


----------



## Eager (21 May 2022)




----------



## qldfrog (24 May 2022)

So we got another eager troll here...pun intended
i really hope he got his pfizer shot from his sponsor.









						Noosa Today - 20th May 2022
					

Read Noosa Today - 20th May 2022 by Star News Group on Issuu and browse thousands of other publications on our platform. Start here!




					issuu.com
				



Page 42 if the link does not open directly
That's local, accurate news..
So local that no chance you will read this on any mainstream news
just a coincidence probably..and imagine if that poor lady had got covids and headaches for a week..


----------



## mullokintyre (24 May 2022)

Some time on Thursday this week, Australia will have its 7 millionth recorded COVID case.
At the end of June 2021, not quite 12 months ago, we hade just passed the 30,000 mark.
On Dec 31st 2021, around 5 months ago it had jumped to 430,000.
So the vast majority of the cases  have occurred in the last six months of a pandemic that has been going for nigh on 2.5 years.
I know of two people who have been unfortunate enough to have caught the bug twice, but last night I met someone who has now had COVID THREE times! Talk about unlucky!
The bloke is a driver for one of the freight companies, so spends a lot of his work time in the cab of his truck, has been required to wear a mask out of the truck , but seemed to be exposed to it.
The  "good " part of it all  he says is that  (a)  apart from the first  dose he got where he felt pretty ordinary for a week, the other two doses have been largely asymptomatic and (b) he never gave it to his wife , though she did get it when she went over to babysit the grandchildren cos the parents both had it. As he said, at least she did not come home and give it to him for a fourth time!
Mick


----------



## macca (24 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Some time on Thursday this week, Australia will have its 7 millionth recorded COVID case.
> At the end of June 2021, not quite 12 months ago, we hade just passed the 30,000 mark.
> On Dec 31st 2021, around 5 months ago it had jumped to 430,000.
> So the vast majority of the cases  have occurred in the last six months of a pandemic that has been going for nigh on 2.5 years.
> ...




If we use the 7 mill as a guide, I think could safely say 14 or 15m have had it, before RA tests people would not get tested unless they were really sick.

Flu like symptoms were treated as such so that people could keep working, since RATs people test then monitor, report it if they get too sick.

Rumours abound in my area of people under 35 not telling anyone if sick, go surfing is the recommended protocol around here


----------



## Eager (24 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> So we got another eager troll here...pun intended



Oh, har de har har.

if your definition of a troll is someone who gives someone else a reality check...then you deserve to keep living in Kweeeensland.


----------



## Eager (25 May 2022)

^ Seems that wot's-his-name that I quoted and replied to last night with the above, has deleted his post and done a runner. Classy.


----------



## cynic (25 May 2022)

Eager said:


> ^ Seems that wot's-his-name that I quoted and replied to last night with the above, has deleted his post and done a runner. Classy.



His post remains present. I'll leave it to you to guess the more likely reason for being unable to view his post.


----------



## DB008 (29 May 2022)

Remember this....

You've been played





Your browser is not able to display this video.



​.


----------



## wayneL (29 May 2022)

DB008 said:


> Remember this....
> 
> You've been played
> 
> ...



The thing is, they are so good at gaslighting that most don't remember... or don't want to.

Just look at how people who get very sick believe it would have been worse without 3 jabs.


----------



## noirua (16 June 2022)

Anthony Fauci, face of US COVID response, tests positive
					

Dr Fauci became a household name for his reassuring and professional presence early in the pandemic.




					www.aljazeera.com


----------



## DB008 (18 June 2022)

.​


----------



## Belli (19 June 2022)

Belli said:


> It'll be resolved one way or the other.  I assumed something like this could occur or treatment may not be successful so have already sorted out my personal affairs including the possibility of winding up the SMSF before my early demise.




A short update.  Oncologist informed me on Friday morning: Success!!

PSA went from high 20's to way less than one.  Regular monitoring all which is required.

Fellas, don't be squeamish.  Get regular a check up.


----------



## mullokintyre (19 June 2022)

Belli said:


> A short update.  Oncologist informed me on Friday morning: Success!!
> 
> PSA went from high 20's to way less than one.  Regular monitoring all which is required.
> 
> Fellas, don't be squeamish.  Get regular a check up.



Well Done Belli.
My PSA went up very slowly.
Highest it got to was about 6.7, but my first PSA blood test about twenty years ago was mid 3's.
Tested every year along with all the of the blood tests for diabetes etc.
Just about sent me into orbit the first time the urologist did the finger test.
Urologist recommended a TURP of prostate.
Like you, sent my count below 1, and  also fixed a few  continence or lack thereof issues.
Mick


----------



## Belli (19 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Well Done Belli.
> My PSA went up very slowly.
> Highest it got to was about 6.7, but my first PSA blood test about twenty years ago was mid 3's.
> Tested every year along with all the of the blood tests for diabetes etc.
> ...




Yippie in that case.

@Joe Blow could you please give some thought to moving relevant posts on men's health issues to a separate thread of their own?


----------



## DB008 (19 June 2022)

Your browser is not able to display this video.



Hmm, that an interesting answer....





Your browser is not able to display this video.



If you can't see that you are been played with....

But the 2020 Election was legitimate  😂  😂  😂  😂  😂 


.


----------



## noirua (29 June 2022)

Omicron BA.1, BA.4 and BA.5 variants and the Omicron BA.2 variant are spreading quickly in the UK and especially fast in Scotland and Northern England.​





						Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey, UK - Office for National Statistics
					

Percentage of people testing positive for coronavirus (COVID-19) in private residential households in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, including regional and age breakdowns.



					www.ons.gov.uk


----------



## IFocus (5 July 2022)

Australia is heading for its third Omicron wave. Here's what to expect from BA.4 and BA.5
					

BA.4 and BA.5 are more transmissible than previous variants and subvariants, and are better able to evade immunity from vaccines and previous infections. Here’s what we know about them so far.




					theconversation.com


----------



## DB008 (5 July 2022)

Australia is heading for its third Omicron wave.​Here’s what to expect from BA.4 and BA.5​
Although current vaccines based on the Wuhan strain will still provide *some* protection against serious illness and death against BA.4/5, they are *unlikely* to provide much, *if any*, protection against infection or symptomatic disease.​









https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07...-ba-4-ba-5-third-omicron-covid-wave/101207522​
Work is going round about masks again. Totally useless.

Unless l get 2 or 3 N95 Masks provided to me daily, it's all theatre....

Natural Immunity? Are we allowed to talk about that?

What's the point of taking any of these shots if they offer 'if any protection' ?


----------



## IFocus (6 July 2022)

DB008 said:


> Natural Immunity? Are we allowed to talk about that?




Think it was in that article where it said little to no natural immunity to the new variants from having the old variant.


----------



## DB008 (8 July 2022)

IFocus said:


> Think it was in that article where it said little to no natural immunity to the new variants from having the old variant.




If l had Omicron, there is little to no natural immunity to BA.4/5?


----------



## IFocus (8 July 2022)

DB008 said:


> If l had Omicron, there is little to no natural immunity to BA.4/5?





That's my understanding plus questions over how effective the 4th dose is.

I know a few getting COVID for the 2md time within around 10 weeks really knocking them around with follow on fatigue.


----------



## Belli (8 July 2022)

IFocus said:


> That's my understanding plus questions over how effective the 4th dose is.
> 
> I know a few getting COVID for the 2md time within around 10 weeks really knocking them around with follow on fatigue.




This article from some three weeks ago.









						Don’t pump brakes: our COVID strategy must change to reflect reality
					

The number of COVID infections reported this year is more than 20 times greater than for the two previous years.




					www.theage.com.au
				




"Omicron infection does not boost your immunity as had been hoped. Reinfections are increasingly common, not necessarily milder than the initial infection and appear to be associated with cumulative damage. The more infections you get the worse it appears to be."

The article was authored by the CEO and a epidemiologist from the Burnett Institute.

As well, there is some interesting titbits in this luncheon interview with Professor Sharon Lewin, previously with the Burnett Institute but now Director of the Doherty Institute.









						‘We are in for a tough winter’: Sharon Lewin, the clear-eyed optimist
					

When the phone calls began rushing in about a mysterious virus leaving people breathless in a city in China, Sharon Lewin felt a familiar pang of adrenaline.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (8 July 2022)

Well the wife went down with covid yesterday and I tested positive today, we had two AZ shots last year no boosters, so I guess we will see what transpires.


----------



## IFocus (9 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well the wife went down with covid yesterday and I tested positive today, we had two AZ shots last year no boosters, so I guess we will see what transpires.




All the best SP take care hope its no big deal if you get stuck yell out.


----------



## Belli (9 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well the wife went down with covid yesterday and I tested positive today, we had two AZ shots last year no boosters, so I guess we will see what transpires.




Damn.  Best wishes to you both for a speedy recovery.


----------



## sptrawler (9 July 2022)

IFocus said:


> All the best SP take care hope its no big deal if you get stuck yell out.



Thanks a lot Ifocus and Belli, we both have the same symptoms, no appetite, really tired and very sore lower back.
No runny nose, very mild sore throat that really gives your back hell when we cough.
The wife is at day 3 and she just went and made a pot of tea and a slice of toast, so she must be on the mend, I'm hoping the loss of appetite hangs around I could do with losing a few kilos.
Cheers and thanks for the kind thoughts IFocus, we have great friends and neighbours down here, it is always good to know there are people such as yourself willing to help it's much appreciated.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 July 2022)

Hope you and the missus recover soon, the sooner the better.
It seems those most affected have a long drawn out set of symptoms.
Mick


----------



## macca (9 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well the wife went down with covid yesterday and I tested positive today, we had two AZ shots last year no boosters, so I guess we will see what transpires.




I have read that taking it easy in the sunshine not only feels good but is good for Covid recovery.

Get well soon 🌞


----------



## sptrawler (9 July 2022)

macca said:


> I have read that taking it easy in the sunshine not only feels good but is good for Covid recovery.
> 
> Get well soon 🌞



The sun isn't shining in Mandurah, but when it is I will take your advice and get outside. Cheers macca


----------



## DB008 (9 July 2022)

I think we are probably at strain BA.7 and BA.8 already circulating in the population worldwide, because the testing always lags the results.

Remember Sweden....how much flack they copped






.


----------



## sptrawler (10 July 2022)

Well latest update, this afternoon I'm feeling good, had a couple of beers and will probably start eating normally tomorrow if the trajectory stays.
The wife she still feels queezy in the stomach and is still getting the chills, I put it down to the fact she spent way too much time exercising, unlike me.
So my symptoms were loss of appetite, slight nausea, chills and difficulty keeping warm and extreme tiredness, so basically in bed for two days. Hopefully I'm out the other end.
I'll give a final update when the missus, starts shouting at me again, then I know she is back to normal.


----------



## macca (10 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well latest update, this afternoon I'm feeling good, had a couple of beers and will probably start eating normally tomorrow if the trajectory stays.
> The wife she still feels queezy in the stomach and is still getting the chills, I put it down to the fact she spent way too much time exercising, unlike me.
> So my symptoms were loss of appetite, slight nausea, chills and difficulty keeping warm and extreme tiredness, so basically in bed for two days. Hopefully I'm out the other end.
> I'll give a final update when the missus, starts shouting at me again, then I know she is back to normal.




Maaate.........

These women, I gave you the tip, take it easy and loll about in the sun, fair dinkum it is recommended and so easy to do


----------



## wayneL (11 July 2022)

Feeling more and more vindicated as time goes by


----------



## Tisme (11 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well latest update, this afternoon I'm feeling good, had a couple of beers and will probably start eating normally tomorrow if the trajectory stays.
> The wife she still feels queezy in the stomach and is still getting the chills, I put it down to the fact she spent way too much time exercising, unlike me.
> So my symptoms were loss of appetite, slight nausea, chills and difficulty keeping warm and extreme tiredness, so basically in bed for two days. Hopefully I'm out the other end.
> I'll give a final update when the missus, starts shouting at me again, then I know she is back to normal.



I've had it twice. First one was bad enough, second one hit me for a six.


----------



## Belli (11 July 2022)

Tisme said:


> I've had it twice. First one was bad enough, second one hit me for a six.




Good to know you have recovered and hoping you don't get it again.  Any lingering effects to report?

I recognise there are some who blithely dismiss the issues with Covid but this is one aspect which should concern taxpayers in a direct sense.







From the data I have seen which is based on 2014 (yep, old so it'd be much higher now) the average daily bed cost for a patient in a Metropolitan ICU is $5,150.  In a general ward the cost is lower but is still around $4,500 per admission.  Money for that has to come from, um, taxpayers?

Add in the issue of bed block (someone is in hospital being treated so you won't be so wait for your elective treatment OK?) and it isn't difficult to understand the health system is creaking presently.


----------



## Tisme (11 July 2022)

Belli said:


> Good to know you have recovered and hoping you don't get it again.  Any lingering effects to report?
> 
> I recognise there are some who blithely dismiss the issues with Covid but this is one aspect which should concern taxpayers in a direct sense.
> 
> ...



Lingering cough.


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2022)

Tisme said:


> I've had it twice. First one was bad enough, second one hit me for a six.



That's interesting, on the tennis they were saying Nadal has had it 3 times, so it is becoming increasingly obvious covid is here to stay.
Is it only a matter of time before the elderly really start to struggle fighting it, it must be amazingly contagious, as my wife is extremely careful with mask wearing, hand washing etc and doesn't socialise yet still caught it.
I really didn't expect that, to be honest.


----------



## Belli (11 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's interesting, on the tennis they were saying Nadal has had it 3 times, so it is becoming increasingly obvious covid is here to stay.
> Is it only a matter of time before the elderly really start to struggle fighting it, it must be amazingly contagious, as my wife is extremely careful with mask wearing, hand washing etc and doesn't socialise yet still caught it.
> I really didn't expect that, to be honest.




He he.  Sorry to tell you this @sptrawler but all viruses once out remain in circulation.  Polio has been detected recently in the UK as has diphtheria in Australia.  There are a couple of samples of smallpox which are locked deep away in secure laboratories just in case.


----------



## Tisme (12 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's interesting, on the tennis they were saying Nadal has had it 3 times, so it is becoming increasingly obvious covid is here to stay.
> Is it only a matter of time before the elderly really start to struggle fighting it, it must be amazingly contagious, as my wife is extremely careful with mask wearing, hand washing etc and doesn't socialise yet still caught it.
> I really didn't expect that, to be honest.



I found gargling with Difflam Sore Throat with Iodine gave me some immediate relief. Others must have found that too because it's in short supply apparently.


----------



## Belli (12 July 2022)

Belli said:


> Add in the issue of bed block (someone is in hospital being treated so you won't be so wait for your elective treatment OK?) and it isn't difficult to understand the health system is creaking presently.




It wasn't me I tell you.  Merely because I posted about it, I didn't cause it OK?

"Victoria’s public hospitals are preparing to suspend parts of their elective surgery programs to cope with a surge in coronavirus hospitalisations as patient numbers reach their highest level since January’s Omicron wave.

Neurosurgeon Patrick Lo, the newly appointed Victorian chair of the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons, has warned it is now increasingly probable non-urgent category-two and three surgeries might have to be delayed as hospitals deal with high volumes of coronavirus patients in the coming weeks."









						‘We are just going to be drowning’: Elective surgery delays projected to rise
					

Victoria’s public hospitals are preparing to suspend parts of their elective surgery programs to cope with a fresh surge in coronavirus hospitalisations.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## Belli (12 July 2022)

We shall welcome them with open tills!

"Our passengers are looking forward to the visit to Eden and supporting local businesses and tour operators after such a long time," the spokesman said."

Mind you I'm not really in favour of how food is served aboard ship.  Would prefer tongs, meself.

"The buffet, unbelievably, is still in operation and you serve yourself," she said.

"There's thongs, but if you touch your face or you cough, there's no glass covering the food — I think that should have been canned straight away."










						'Another curve ball': COVID cruise ship to dock in NSW as testing requirements change
					

A cruise ship with a huge COVID-19 outbreak among crew and passengers will arrive in New South Wales today as the state government announces a key change to its reinfection policy.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2022)

Well it looks as though the purse strings are getting tightened, interesting that as a new surge is taking place, the free RAT tests are stopping.








						As COVID surges, the government will stop giving free RATs to vulnerable Australians
					

Around 5.6 million vulnerable Australians received free RATs under the scheme the Albanese government is wrapping up, but those providing the tests are urging the government to reconsider.




					www.abc.net.au
				



The Federal Health Minister Mark Butler on Tuesday confirmed the program, which was introduced by the Morrison government in January, would not be extended beyond July arguing it is "about the right time" for it to end.

Under the scheme, concession card holders including those with a Pensioner Concession Card, Low Income Health Care Card, and Seniors Card, have been able to access up to 10 free rapid tests over three months from participating community pharmacies.

Defending the decision, Mr Butler said RATs supply shortages experienced earlier this year have ended and the price of individual tests have reduced significantly since the omicron wave which swept across the country in summer.
"The price has come down dramatically," Mr Butler told Melbourne's 3AW radio on Tuesday.

"They were running on average at $24 or $25 per test if you could get them in January, they're now down around about $8 a test."


----------



## Belli (13 July 2022)

Belli said:


> "There's thongs, but if you touch your face or you cough, there's no glass covering the food — I think that should have been canned straight away."




I notice the Editors have realised the error and have now corrected it. 

I have a wry inner smile.  Following statements in the past at various Government levels that there is no need to wear a mask if you don't want to, the bozo's are now preparing for the hospital system to come under futher strain as a consequence of increasing number of cases requiring admission.  Of course, as is the way with politicians there are murmurings that projections by those health people are only that and may not happen which is a 180 degree turn from what some well known pollies were saying last year.

Since the "No need to wear a mask if you don't wish to" approach, I've had conversations with various health professionals and others involved in these matters.  All of them basically said at the time they gave an inward groan and silently said "Oh, Pluck!"


----------



## wayneL (13 July 2022)

Premiers and CHOs having power trip withdrawals?



			https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/government-rules-out-extending-free-rat-scheme-pm-says-stock-up-before-it-ends/news-story/1b58271f89e2e09b3f05435dd9d90692


----------



## Belli (14 July 2022)

An article analysing Covid v Flu in Australia.  I found it a good read so decided to post the link in case others were interested.









						Flu may be back, but COVID is far from over. How do they compare?
					

This winter we’re seeing high rates of COVID and the re-emergence of influenza. So how do they compare, in terms of transmissibility and deadliness?




					theconversation.com


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2022)

As I said, we need a change of Govt to get things done, that the previous Govt couldn't. 
The media aren't making a huge song and dance about every issue, which is good, the situation can't go on forever IMO. 


Treasurer defends end of free RAT scheme​
The federal treasurer has defended scrapping pandemic leave payments and free rapid antigen tests for concession card holders despite rising COVID-19 case numbers.

As a cruise ship with more than 100 positive COVID-19 cases on board docked in Sydney on Wednesday, Jim Chalmers said the government could not afford to continue the schemes due to budget pressures.


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As I said, we need a change of Govt to get things done, that the previous Govt couldn't.
> The media aren't making a huge song and dance about every issue, which is good, the situation can't go on forever IMO.
> 
> 
> ...



Could you imagine the screaming if Morrison said this.


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2022)

Yes, the difference now is, the media narrative will change.
From the Govt isn't doing enough, to the Govt has to be fiscally responsible and have no option but to roll back the spending and the masses go "oh yes of course, whatever you say".😂
As I said pre election, labor have to get in, to bring in changes that the Coalition can't, this is only the first of many IMO.
The summit will be an eye opener IMO, a back scratching fest of mammoth proportions.









						Pandemic spending must be wound back to fix the budget
					

The government is right not to extend pandemic leave payments for workers with COVID-19.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Like any incoming leader, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese understandably wants to focus on a forward-looking agenda but the COVID-19 pandemic is not yet a matter of history.
The challenges of managing the pandemic have resurfaced this week as public health experts, business groups and members of Albanese’s own party question federal Labor’s decision not to extend pandemic leave payments of $750 for certain workers with COVID-19, as well as a scheme for free rapid antigen tests for pensioners.


----------



## JohnDe (16 July 2022)

> ‘There’s cumulative damage each time you get infected’​The hope of governments that vaccination combined with prior infection would would spell the end of large Covid pandemic waves has been dashed. But there’s a balance we have not yet found.
> 
> More than 2½ years into the Covid-19 pandemic, there is no end in sight.
> The virus is adapting with alarming speed, creating ever-larger waves of infection with each new ultra-transmissible variant. The hope of governments that vaccination combined with prior infection would result in broad immune protection that would spell the end of large pandemic waves has been dashed by the Omicron subvariants’ ability to evade immunity, with reinfections now commonplace.
> ...


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2022)

I hate to sound like a broken record, but masks don't work (and are an environmental disaster)









						The astonishing data that proves masks don't work
					

Masks are worn everywhere in Singapore and Kiwis are forced to wear masks in public including shopping malls. But both have higher Covid cases per million than Australia.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## JohnDe (20 July 2022)

wayneL said:


> I hate to sound like a broken record, but masks don't work (and are an environmental disaster)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe it is time for a new record.

For every tabloid article telling us that 'masks don't work' there are 10 medical reports describing why and how they work.

_"Can face masks help slow the spread of the virus that causes coronavirus disease? *Yes*. Face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as getting vaccinated, frequent hand-washing and physical distancing, can help slow the spread of the virus that causes COVID-19."_​








						Can face masks protect against COVID-19?
					

Face masks can help slow the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Learn about mask types, which masks to use and how to use them.




					www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Maybe it is time for a new record.
> 
> For every tabloid article telling us that 'masks don't work' there are 10 medical reports describing why and how they work.
> 
> ...



The numbers don't lie.


----------



## JohnDe (20 July 2022)

_".. one observational study has directly analyzed the impact of mask use in the community on COVID-19 transmission. The study looked at the reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in Beijing households by face mask use (10). It found that face masks were 79% effective in preventing transmission, if they were used by all household members prior to symptoms occurring. .."_​


			https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014564118
		


_Conclusion_​_Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission:_​​_Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission._​​_The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34)._​​_Models suggest that public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high (39). We recommend that mask use requirements are implemented by governments, or, when governments do not, by organizations that provide public-facing services. Such mandates must be accompanied by measures to ensure access to masks, possibly including distribution and rationing mechanisms so that they do not become discriminatory. Given the value of the source control principle, especially for presymptomatic people, it is not sufficient for only employees to wear masks; customers must wear masks as well....._​


----------



## wayneL (20 July 2022)

Beijing eh?


----------



## JohnDe (20 July 2022)

wayneL said:


> Beijing eh?




*An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19*

_Edited by Lauren Ancel Meyers, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX, and accepted by Editorial Board Member Nils C. Stenseth

*The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained.* _

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## noirua (22 July 2022)




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## wayneL (23 July 2022)

FWIW


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## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

wayneL said:


> The numbers don't lie.




That depends on whose numbers they are.

Personally I chose to wear a mask in crowded places like shopping centres and use the hand wash when I leave.

Being an airborne virus these measures must help to an extent, so far I haven't yet been infected (touch wood).

If the medical evidence says these measures help, why should we not take their advice over one of Rupert's rags opinions ?


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## Macquack (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> That depends on whose numbers they are.
> 
> Personally I chose to wear a mask in crowded places like shopping centres and use the hand wash when I leave.
> 
> ...



Anti-vaxxers are bullet-proof. They don't need the Covid vaccinnes, so why the f would they need a mask.


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## macca (23 July 2022)

Rather pleasing to see that the ICUs are not under any pressure from the latest wave, perhaps the natural immunity thing is starting to happen.

In our family everyone has had Covid, all vaxed to max, except me and the Missus, we ain't vaxed and we are not sure if we have had it or not. We have had a couple of days when we fitted the symptoms but tested negative on the RATs

We do do this though, each evening we get sniffing the funny stuff

Hospital Study Shows that Covid-19 Can be Prevented with Hydrogen Peroxide









						Hospital Study Shows that Covid-19 Can be Prevented with Hydrogen Peroxide
					

This article may be...




					orthomolecular.activehosted.com


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## DB008 (24 July 2022)

DB008 said:


> I think we are probably at strain BA.7 and BA.8 already circulating in the population worldwide, because the results always lag the tests.




There's a new COVID-19 Omicron subvariant, so what is BA.2.75 and​why are some people calling it 'Centaurus'?​
Since the COVID-19 pandemic first began, many have become desensitised to these next few words:​​There's a new Omicron subvariant.​​BA.2.75 was first detected in India in early May. Since then, it's been found in Europe and the United States.​​The chief scientist with the World Health Organization (WHO), Soumya Swaminathan, said BA.2.75 appeared to have mutated in a way that could indicate "major immune escape".​​However, Dr Swaminathan says there isn't enough data to know how severe its impact will be.​​Here's what we know so far:​​_*What is the BA.2.75 subvariant?*_​​Adelaide epidemiologist Adrian Esterman says it's "another child of BA.2".​​"The fact is, there's no research that shows BA.2.75 is more transmissible or more serious," Professor Esterman said.​​


> "BA.2.75 has more mutations than BA.5. And that's what has researchers a little bit worried."​



In a video posted to the WHO's Twitter account, Dr Swaminathan said BA.2.75 had "not yet officially been named", but that some people were "referring to it as BA.2.75".​​"There are still limited sequences available to analyse, but this subvariant seems to have a few mutations on the receptor binding domain of the spike protein, a key part of the virus that attaches itself to the human receptor," she said.​​


> "It's still too early to know if this subvariant has properties of additional immune invasion, or of being more clinically severe."​



​
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07...vid-19-subvariant-ba-2-75-centaurus/101258198​

.


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## moXJO (24 July 2022)

Macquack said:


> Anti-vaxxers are bullet-proof. They don't need the Covid vaccinnes, so why the f would they need a mask.



Viruses pass through the majority of masks. Wearing them in outdoor settings, well you might as well wear a stack hat just in case you trip over as well. 

They stop the distance it can go when breathing out, or sneezing. N95 will protect so long as proper handling/measures are taken. But no one seems to know how to use them properly. So not really. If people want to wear them go right ahead. 



macca said:


> Rather pleasing to see that the ICUs are not under any pressure from the latest wave, perhaps the natural immunity thing is starting to happen.
> 
> In our family everyone has had Covid, all vaxed to max, except me and the Missus, we ain't vaxed and we are not sure if we have had it or not. We have had a couple of days when we fitted the symptoms but tested negative on the RATs
> 
> ...




Interesting thing I'm seeing, nothing scientific about it though. The guys that were antivax or 2 shots are not getting it as badly as 4 shots.

There was some study about it triggering the immune system negatively for 8 months or something that I skimmed past somewhere.


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## macca (24 July 2022)

moXJO said:


> Viruses pass through the majority of masks. Wearing them in outdoor settings, well you might as well wear a stack hat just in case you trip over as well.
> 
> They stop the distance it can go when breathing out, or sneezing. N95 will protect so long as proper handling/measures are taken. But no one seems to know how to use them properly. So not really. If people want to wear them go right ahead.
> 
> ...




This is a real controversial topic in some places, I have seen figures from OS where testing shows that the Vax is better for months 1and 2, months 3-4 are much the same as no Vax, after that you better off not to be vaxed.

This seems to be supported by the decrease in the time between shots, originally once a year, then 6 months, then 4 months, now 3 months......... obviously we need a better vax

The report said that for the the MRna Vax to work it has to suppress our bodies T cells and killer cells, which means the bodies defences are part way turned off, so any other sickness gets a free run when attacking us.  (colds and flu ?)

Very worrying aspect is that the Vax does effect the endocrine system and if our main defences against cancer are turned off or damaged then things like breast and prostate cancer may run amok.

In the leaked data from the DOD in the USA, breast cancers were up 300% in a little over a year.

This was later claimed to be a PC error but as these very scary details were released by 3 DOD Doctors it would  seem reasonable to think they would know if it was true.

I read one of the head Medicos in Oz saying we will just have to learn to live with Covid, around here 90% are doing just that.

5% masks, still a bit of social distancing and not much club and pub time but Vax rates have plummeted because a huge % have had Omicron so see no reason to Vax or boost


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## IFocus (25 July 2022)

1000 cases in hospital 30 in ICU QLD.

And masks don't work?

Then for gods sake tell the medical profession to stop wearing them what would they know?


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## moXJO (25 July 2022)

IFocus said:


> 1000 cases in hospital 30 in ICU QLD.
> 
> And masks don't work?
> 
> Then for gods sake tell the medical profession to stop wearing them what would they know?



That's not how surgical masks work or what their for.


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## DB008 (25 July 2022)

​Adverse effects of COVID-19 vaccines and measures to prevent them​
Recently, _The Lancet_ published a study on the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines and the waning of immunity with time. The study showed that immune function among vaccinated individuals 8 months after the administration of two doses of COVID-19 vaccine was lower than that among the unvaccinated individuals. According to European Medicines Agency recommendations, frequent COVID-19 booster shots could adversely affect the immune response and may not be feasible. The decrease in immunity can be caused by several factors such as N1-methylpseudouridine, the spike protein, lipid nanoparticles, antibody-dependent enhancement, and the original antigenic stimulus. These clinical alterations may explain the association reported between COVID-19 vaccination and shingles. As a safety measure, further booster vaccinations should be discontinued. In addition, the date of vaccination should be recorded in the medical record of patients. Several practical measures to prevent a decrease in immunity have been reported. These include limiting the use of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, including acetaminophen to maintain deep body temperature, appropriate use of antibiotics, smoking cessation, stress control, and limiting the use of lipid emulsions, including propofol, which may cause perioperative immunosuppression. In conclusion, COVID-19 vaccination is a major risk factor for infections in critically ill patients.​
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9167431/​



Antibodies From Vaccines Interfering Instead of Neutralizing Because of Spike Protein Changes: Dr. Risch​
The antibodies triggered by COVID-19 vaccines are interfering with people’s immune systems as newer virus variants emerge, Dr. Harvey Risch said.​​The two most widely-used vaccines in the United States, produced by Pfizer and Moderna, both work by sending messenger RNA into muscle cells, where they produce a piece of the spike protein from the virus that causes COVID-19. The spike protein triggers the production of antibodies, which are believed to help prevent infection by SARS-CoV-2, which causes COVID-19, and fight illness if one still gets infected.​​But the vaccines are based on the spike protein from the original virus variant, which was displaced early in the pandemic. Since then, a series of newer strains have become dominant around the world, with the latest being BA.5.​​“The vaccines only make a very narrow range of antibodies to the spike protein,” compared to the broader exposure experienced when one gets infected, Risch, an epidemiology professor at the Yale School of Public Health, told EpochTV’s “American Thought Leaders.”​​“The problem with that is, of course, that when the spike protein changes because of new strains of the virus, that the ability of the immune system to make antibodies that correlate to the new strains becomes reduced to the point where it may be almost ineffective over longer periods of time,” he added.​​That leads to the antibodies being triggered by the vaccines not binding strongly enough to neutralize.​​“What that means is they become interfering antibodies, instead of neutralizing antibodies,” Risch said. “And that’s the reason I believe that we’ve seen what’s called negative benefit—negative vaccine efficacy over longer time—over four to six to eight months after the last vaccine dose, that one sees the benefit of the vaccines turn negative.”​
https://www.theepochtimes.com/antibodies-from-vaccines-interfering-instead-of-neutralizing-because-of-spike-protein-changes-dr-risch_4609932.html?utm_source=newsnoe&utm_campaign=breaking-2022-07-20-one&utm_medium=email&est=5QwmeogkRDOTH7GihYnf1mn41w2kRl/Ad8RUOTAfAdmWIgw69vac+8pJthQ+0Uwh2+8=​.


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## DB008 (26 July 2022)

Remember this....

What else have they been lying about??​










https://fortune.com/2021/04/01/its-official-vaccinated-people-dont-transmit-covid-19/
.​


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## DB008 (27 July 2022)

A study published in the _New England Journal of Medicine _showed that people vaccinated against COVID-19 remained contagious with the virus for a longer period of time than their unvaccinated counterparts.

The disparity in contagiousness was particularly pronounced between the unvaccinated and individuals who did not receive a booster shot.

The findings were published in a letter to the editor signed by dozens of doctors from a variety of hospitals in Boston, Massachusetts in the prestigious _New England Journal of Medicin_e in June. From July 2021 through January 2022, researchers studied 66 participants who contracted COVID-19, including 32 people with the Delta variant and 34 with the Omicron variant.

Researchers compiled a variety of graphs tracking how long people remained contagious with the virus, using both PCR tests and viral cultures as indicators.

When the data was separated into the categories “unvaccinated,” “vaccinated,” and “boosted,” individuals who did not receive a COVID-19 vaccine were contagious for a shorter period of time.

Regarding positive PCR tests, within the first 10 days of contracting the virus 68.75 percent of unvaccinated subjects were no longer contagious. In contrast, just 29.72 percent of vaccinated and 38.46 percent of boosted people were no longer contagious.

Fifteen days into the study, 93.75 percent and 92.31 percent of unvaccinated and boosted people, respectively, were no longer contagious; however, just 78.38 percent of vaccinated people weren’t contagious.
​​Duration of Shedding of Culturable Virus in SARS-CoV-2 Omicron (BA.1) Infection​

In this longitudinal cohort of participants, most of whom had symptomatic, nonsevere Covid-19 infection, the viral decay kinetics were similar with omicron infection and delta infection. Although vaccination has been shown to reduce the incidence of infection and the severity of disease, we did not find large differences in the median duration of viral shedding among participants who were unvaccinated, those who were vaccinated but not boosted, and those who were vaccinated and boosted.​
Our results should be interpreted within the context of a small sample size, which limits precision, and the possibility of residual confounding in comparisons according to variant, vaccination status, and the time period of infection. Although culture positivity has been proposed as a possible proxy for infectiousness, additional studies are needed to correlate viral-culture positivity with confirmed transmission in order to inform isolation periods. Our data suggest that some persons who are infected with the omicron and delta SARS-CoV-2 variants shed culturable virus more than 5 days after symptom onset or an initial positive test.​








https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2202092



.​


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## macca (27 July 2022)

I had lunch at an RSL club in Newcastle today, I counted 53 people in the club while waiting for the restaurant to open and only 3 had masks on.

None were eating though a few were having a quiet bevy

Seems folk, young and old, are over the Covid panic in Newcastle


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## macca (27 July 2022)

On the Channel 9 website is an article from a blood serum lab saying that almost half of their blood tests are showing Covid antibodies, indicating that half of the population have had Covid recently.

Guess that explains the slow take up of boosters 

Almost half of adult Australians had caught COVID-19 by early June, and were likely to have had it in the past three to six months, a new study has suggested.
The ongoing study, co-led by the Kirby Institute and National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance in collaboration with Lifeblood, surveys blood samples to detect antibodies to the virus.
The authors have explained antibodies are most likely to be found if the person's infection was in the past three to six months.









						Almost half of Aussies have had COVID-19 by June 2022, study suggests
					






					www.9news.com.au


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## DB008 (30 July 2022)

Florida Surgeon General, Dr. Joe Ladapo: "How can you force people to take a vaccine to stop transmission when that vaccine is not effective at stopping transmission?"







Your browser is not able to display this video.





.​


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## sptrawler (30 July 2022)

The problem that I'm having is, what is the vaccine about, people who have had four shots are getting really sick, people who have had two shots aren't.
Now basically they are saying if you catch the virus and get over it, it doesn't matter in 28 days you can catch it again, so obviously any vaccine is pointless.
Just where is it all this going?


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## macca (31 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The problem that I'm having is, what is the vaccine about, people who have had four shots are getting really sick, people who have had two shots aren't.
> Now basically they are saying if you catch the virus and get over it, it doesn't matter in 28 days you can catch it again, so obviously any vaccine is pointless.
> Just where is it all this going?



Now we have the most vaxed person in the world getting Covid twice in a month.........

Joe Biden has it again just days after testing negative, the wonderful million dollar treatment allows a rebound infection   

Fauci had the same result, get sick take the brand new pill, get better for two days then get sick again, sound a bit suss to me


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## moXJO (4 August 2022)

Under scomo you couldn't stop the bleating about "covid mismanagement". Endless posts, social media and news articles.
Recently I think we were second in the world for covid deaths and not a peep.

So where's the outrage? 
Masks 
Lockdowns 
All the other bs that all of a sudden isn't that important.
Oh it was politically motivated, carry on then.


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## DB008 (4 August 2022)

*One of the best analysis from Vinay Prasad on Covid-19 so far*​
A Medical Student's Thoughts During COVID-19: Crazy Policies​

_One It is my pleasure to host this guest essay by an anonymous second year medical student at a prestigious east coast university. His classes tried to teach him evidence based medicine, but he was the victim of irrationality, fear and bad policy. The policy choices affected him, as you will see.

When people ask me why I speak up when I see smart people making stupid decisions— this is why.  

-Vinay Prasad, MD MPH_

*Medical School During COVID-19: A Student’s Thoughts

By Anonymous, East Coast Medical Student, MS2*

I just finished my first year of medical school! Many wonderful things happened, and I hope to share these some day, but today I want to describe my thoughts on COVID-19, and how my university’s policies affected my education.

*I was a premed student when the virus hit, and I didn’t know how scared to be*

Like many, I followed the pandemic from the beginning. I watched as President Trump described the dangers of the novel virus. I’ll admit, I feared what was to come. In the beginning, we didn’t know what the virus was capable of and weren’t getting reassurance from mainstream media. If anything, they made things worse. 

Many medical doctors and PhD scientists began speaking on TV claiming to be ‘experts’ regarding SARS-CoV-2. Many of their messages weren’t data driven, and unfortunately, were fear driven. No wonder the world went crazy. I remember thinking then, and still to this day, how can these individuals be experts? This is a novel virus, and the world has little to no experience dealing with a pandemic of this magnitude, so how can someone be an expert in something that has never existed? 

During the first few weeks of the pandemic (March 2020), we were talking about interventions that had never been attempted in all of human history – shutting down school, borders, and society itself – even if these ‘experts’ knew everything possible about coronavirus transmission, how could they know which of these interventions, if any, were justified? Which would have unintended consequences?

The real experts were those who were silent, spending their time critically evaluating all the data to derive objective conclusions decoupled from their political ideology – only speaking when having something relevant and important to say. 

When watching an April 3rd, 2020 YouTube video by Prof. John Ioannidis, I felt for the first time that I was being spoken to honestly. He simply described that there was uncertainty about the severity of COVID-19 and that we currently were lacking reliable data. He then explained that fatality rates from a Carnival Cruise outbreak were much lower and likely more accurate than estimates by the WHO (3.4% CFR). His message was objective, calming, and in stark contrast with messages from the mainstream media. I often wonder how the public’s perception of the pandemic would have differed if the CDC and mainstream media would have adopted a similar message to Dr. Ioannidis. 

Unfortunately, one of Professor Ioannidis' videos was removed in the early days of the pandemic because of the claim – that COVID-19 might have an IFR in the same ballpark as the worst seasonal influenza. But how could this claim be wrong? Who decides how big a ballpark is? I found the censorship surreal.

As time passed, it seemed our response to the virus moved further and further away from the data, and, at least from my perspective, further from common sense.

*I get accepted to medical school, conditional on vaccination*

Fast forward to Spring 2021. I was fortunate and got my medical school acceptance letter early, so thankfully I wasn’t one of those students who struggled with the anxiety of potentially not being admitted. 

Nonetheless, my worries found me as I learned that my university would be mandating the COVID-19 vaccine for students. I wasn’t ready to take the COVID-19 vaccine. Plain and simple, I wanted to know more about the efficacy in my age group, and I hoped to see robust safety data before making this decision.

In my mind, mandatory vaccines are only justified if we know that the adverse event risk to the recipient is trivial, that vaccination protects the health of others, and that natural infection is insufficient to do so. Other vaccines are mandatory for medical school, but students can opt-out by showing evidence of pre-existing antibodies. However, for COVID-19 there was no alternative to vaccination even if an individual had detectable antibody levels. 

I thought there must be a reason for this – But, I am still waiting! Vaccinated and naturally infected individuals both produce antibodies against the spike protein – those infected naturally actually have additional antibodies specific to other motifs on the virus. Moreover, the risk of bad outcomes from reinfection appears lower in those with natural immunity than those merely vaccinated. Finally, escape variants have rendered both natural immunity and vaccination defenseless against reinfection. My question remains: why is natural immunity not considered a vaccine equivalent? It surely is.

Not only my university, but all mainstream public health agencies have consistently discredited any immunity gained from natural infection. Of all the blunders public health has committed over the pandemic, this one may only be rivaled by school closures and will lead to years of distrust.

Countless studies have now been published supporting what many of us already knew – immunity post infection is robust, long lasting, and durable. Yet, to this day, the U.S. government and CDC are hesitant to acknowledge immunity gained from infection.

*We are cloth masking, after vaccination, outside, in the heat and humidity *

In August of 2021, I arrived on the east coast to start class. Coming from the Midwest, I experienced a type of culture shock when moving. I had never before seen so many people wearing cloth masks outside, especially in 95-degree weather with unbearable humidity. I didn’t quite pick up on this trend, but it is still alive to this day. 

On campus, masks were required at all times whenever indoors – a cloth mask, of course. Needless to say, it was anything but joyful sitting all day in a mask while also trying to listen to professors teach complex medical topics. Although the rules allowed for professors to take their mask off while lecturing, few followed. 

Furthermore, the policy permitted students to lower their mask for a sip of water or bite of food in the lecture hall. I know what you are thinking – what is the point of an intermittent cloth mask mandate – that was what I wondered as well.

Adding to this, consider that everyone inside the building was COVID tested once every two weeks and 98% of people were vaccinated. Why were we still required to mask if virtually everyone had immunity to the virus and people weren’t allowed into the building if they happened to test positive? 

If I am honest with myself, I must admit that whenever I see another human smile, I feel happy.  It is strange that a natural human reaction, and a desire to see data to support recommendations (i.e. cloth mask mandates) would be labeled “anti-mask” rather than common sense.

*Testing rules led faculty and students to be thrown out *

As the semester rolled along, there were additional times where I was confused about the university’s policies. For example, on multiple occurrences professors and students struggled to bypass security at the entrance of the building because they were not up to date with their COVID-19 testing. They didn’t have symptoms. They simply did not take a test on time despite being perfectly well in health. 

This was a foolish policy that prioritizes fear over education. The university has no data that prohibiting an asymptomatic, healthy person from the building improves anyone’s health or reduces transmission of the virus. Furthermore, a few days before winter break, with zero warning, the university decided to move all classes online. This persisted for a couple additional weeks after winter vacation. Some students applauded this decision as now they could remain at home longer or extend their vacation at breathtaking venues. I, on the other hand, actually enjoy learning from the lecture hall. I find it beneficial to sit among other students and listen to professors speak in real time. Virtual school was a challenge, and I feel short-changed having had to miss out on seeing friends and instructors during that period.

*The mask mandate falls, but then is resurrected*

In spring of 2022, the university dropped the mask mandate. Words can’t describe how wonderful it was to see my classmates’ whole faces rather than their eyes peering over a piece of cloth. I feel like everyone can agree on this, but for some reason, it is not valued. The American Academy of Pediatrics even stated that babies seeing faces doesn’t matter – I cannot believe they were so wedded to a political ideology that they lost sight of common sense.

Just as quickly as the mask mandate was lifted, it was re-implemented a few days later. I shouldn’t have been surprised, but I was. I would concede this was the correct decision if they had provided any sort of data indicating that the period of no masking (which many did not take advantage of) caused massive infections, hospitalizations, and deaths among students and staff. This aligns well with many of the pandemic decisions – implementing a policy without data. By the way, the mask mandate remained in place through the end of the year and is still active today. They have never had data supporting mandates, and now that breakthrough infection is inevitable – what is the goal?  Furthermore, the mask mandates end when we go off campus to the bars – there are no masks in sight.

*What is the point of all these anecdotes?*

My university prides itself on practicing and teaching evidence based medicine, yet the COVID-19 policies they have implemented are vastly discordant with the evidence base. I’m afraid my university values its image over pursuing sensible, data driven guidelines. Despite having intelligent physicians and public health leaders making decisions, it seems they would rather fit in with the crowd (follow suit with other universities) than use their judgment to make and adapt policy. I don’t blame them for ‘following the leader’ as it is quite challenging to be the one pushing against the grain. However, I am disappointed to be at an institution that (through the lens of COVID-19 policy) appears to discredit the truth and lack urgency in finding it. 

*How has COVID affected my medical education?*

In all honesty, I don’t believe COVID has impacted the quality of my medical education. Despite vaccine/booster/mask mandates, routine asymptomatic testing, random breaks from in-person learning, and a constant reminder that COVID is real and dangerous, I don’t feel cheated out of critical learning experiences. At the same time, I will admit, I don’t know what things could have been like had we had sensible policies.

Although the policies/restrictions were burdensome, I learned to live with them. Preparing to be a competent doctor who provides the best possible care to patients is far more important than letting ill-advised policies affect my education. I suppose the policies gave me a chance to show my resiliency.

Finally, the pandemic will likely remain a guiding principle throughout my life – even if my university still has not heeded the lessons. This experience has convinced me that “in God we trust, but everyone else must bring [honest] data”. I am now much more critical of what I read and arrive at conclusions that are derived from my thoughts rather than parroting what others say. 

I wish there were easier ways to have been taught this lesson, but I am grateful to have learned it and know it will serve me and my patients well. Thank you for reading my experience.


https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.c...s-during?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email



​


.


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## noirua (5 August 2022)

Provisional Mortality Statistics, Jan - Jun 2022
					

Provisional deaths data for measuring changes in patterns of mortality




					www.abs.gov.au
				




Between January and April 2022 there have been 3,593 deaths due to COVID-19 that were certified by a doctor. 654 of these deaths occurred in April.
Other causes of death​
Deaths due to dementia including Alzheimer's disease were 20.7% above the baseline average in April, and 20.4% above the baseline average for the year to April. The age standardised death rate for April was 3.5 per 100,000 people, compared to a baseline average rate of 3.2.
Deaths due to cancer were 4.7% above the baseline average in April, to be 5.7% above the baseline average for the year to April. The age standardised rate for April (11.7 per 100,000 people) was slightly below the baseline average rate of 12.3.
Deaths due to diabetes remained 10.3% above average in April, and were 18.9% higher than the baseline average for the year to April.
The first influenza death for 2022 occurred during April. The baseline average number of influenza deaths for April is 21, and the average for the year to April is 55.


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## DB008 (8 August 2022)

Very interesting....





DARPA

.​


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## wayneL (8 August 2022)

It's interesting how shxt changes when you want to win a cricket match at the CommonMarxism games.


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## DB008 (9 August 2022)

​


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## DB008 (12 August 2022)

​


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## noirua (17 August 2022)

Shanghai Ikea customers flee as officials attempt to lock down store
					

Viral video purportedly shows panicked shoppers scrambling to escape a Shanghai Ikea over the weekend as authorities shut down the store over COVID-19.




					www.foxbusiness.com


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## qldfrog (17 August 2022)

noirua said:


> Shanghai Ikea customers flee as officials attempt to lock down store
> 
> 
> Viral video purportedly shows panicked shoppers scrambling to escape a Shanghai Ikea over the weekend as authorities shut down the store over COVID-19.
> ...




Wtf is China doing with the on going Covid crap measures?
We all know it is not required in any way so virus has nothing to do with the relentless drama, and everything in china has a long term aim..so preparing population for what?
And as a westerner, especially Australia based, i think we should be scared..but still no clue or wild guess of what.
We have already enough to be scared of our own Reset stooges and governments...but ill at ease.
What is the CCP preparing?


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## moXJO (17 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Wtf is China doing with the on going Covid crap measures?
> We all know it is not required in any way so virus has nothing to do with the relentless drama, and everything in china has a long term aim..so preparing population for what?
> And as a westerner, especially Australia based, i think we should be scared..but still no clue or wild guess of what.
> We have already enough to be scared of our own Reset stooges and governments...but ill at ease.
> What is the CCP preparing?



Given that it may have originated in a Chinese lab. Maybe they know the long term health implications of it spreading through the population.


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## qldfrog (17 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Given that it may have originated in a Chinese lab. Maybe they know the long term health implications of it spreading through the population.



I like your "may have"😊
They do not use pfizer or moderna so they will be ok.😁


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## moXJO (17 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I like your "may have"😊



Hey, they might be our new overlords soon.


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## qldfrog (17 August 2022)

moXJO said:


> Hey, they might be our new overlords soon.



I should take care indeed, telling truth is not good in the west, but not getting better either in the old kingdom 🥴


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## DB008 (20 August 2022)

​One of the guys at work came in with the sniffles.

Did a test, results below

Quick, send out the contact traces....

He's over 50
No health issues
It's like he has the cold/flu​







.​


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## IFocus (20 August 2022)

Listened to Professor Jeremy Nicholson on ABC radio, he was talking of the current research showing a significance rise in the risk of cardio vascular  disease  COVID among other risks caused by the immune response well worth a listen 15mins.









						Can Omicron give you long COVID? - ABC Perth
					

What you should know about Omicron and long covid.




					www.abc.net.au


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## sptrawler (22 August 2022)

Now the covid alert systems aren't being used does anyone know how to remove them from an android device? I have opened app manager but the uninstall icon isn't highlighted, so it wont uninstall.


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## Knobby22 (22 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Now the covid alert systems aren't being used does anyone know how to remove them from an android device? I have opened app manager but the uninstall icon isn't highlighted, so it wont uninstall.



Hold down on it and uninstall will pop up - at least in Android, if you have an iphone you are on your own )


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## sptrawler (22 August 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Hold down on it and uninstall will pop up - at least in Android, if you have an iphone you are on your own )



Thanks Knobby, you're a champion mate.🤩


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## DB008 (24 August 2022)

​


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## macca (30 August 2022)

UK Govt says pregnant ladies or those breastfeeding should NOT get vaccinated, better late than never I suppose.

Too bad about the ladies who aborted after getting vaxed
​<<Toxicity conclusions​
The absence of reproductive toxicity data is a reflection of the speed of development to first identify and select COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 for clinical testing and its rapid development to meet the ongoing urgent health need. In principle, a decision on licensing a vaccine could be taken in these circumstances without data from reproductive toxicity studies animals, but there are studies ongoing and these will be provided when available. In the context of supply under Regulation 174, it is considered that sufficient reassurance of safe use of the vaccine in pregnant women cannot be provided at the present time: however, use in women of childbearing potential could be supported provided healthcare professionals are advised to rule out known or suspected pregnancy prior to vaccination. Women who are breastfeeding should also not be vaccinated. These judgements reflect the absence of data at the present time and do not reflect a specific finding of concern. Adequate advice with regard to women of childbearing potential, pregnant women and breastfeeding women has been provided in both the Information for UK Healthcare Professionals and the Information for UK recipients.>>





__





						Summary of the Public Assessment Report for COVID-19 Vaccine Pfizer/BioNTech
					






					www.gov.uk


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## DB008 (1 September 2022)

Hmm, thats interesting....


​


.


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## wayneL (12 September 2022)

Omicron probably manufactured in lab


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## DB008 (13 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> Omicron probably manufactured in lab




Covid was manufactured in a lab. 100%

The question is, did it come out of a US lab or a Chinese lab, or a JV between both parties?



(Time stamped @1:57)​


Recap on MSN lying



(Time stamped @0:29 seconds)​


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## DB008 (13 September 2022)

​JEFFREY SACHS PRESENTS EVIDENCE OF POSSIBLE LAB ORIGIN OF COVID-19​*An article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences calls for an independent investigation of information held by U.S.-based institutions that could shed light on the origins of Covid*​
The journal article offers a scientific road map for how this unusual sequence of amino acids could have made its way into the furin cleavage site, or FCS, of the virus. Sachs and Harrison acknowledge that the sequence could have arisen naturally. But they also lay out another possibility: that scientists might have purposefully inserted this particular string of amino acids into a bat coronavirus in the course of their work. They focus particularly on scientists who submitted an unfunded grant proposal to a division of the Defense Department called the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, laying out plans to insert a furin cleavage site into a bat coronavirus.​
“We do not know whether the insertion of the FCS was the result of natural evolution — perhaps via a recombination event in an intermediate mammal or a human — or was the result of a deliberate introduction of the FCS into a SARS-like virus as part of a laboratory experiment,” Sachs and Harrison write. “We do know that the insertion of such FCS sequences into SARS-like viruses was a specific goal of work proposed by the EHA-WIV-UNC partnership within a 2018 grant proposal (“DEFUSE”) that was submitted to the US Defense Advanced Research Projects (DARPA).”​

https://theintercept.com/2022/05/19/covid-lab-leak-evidence-jeffrey-sachs/







.

.


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## DB008 (15 September 2022)

.​


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## DB008 (17 September 2022)

Remember this​




Your browser is not able to display this video.










.​


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## DB008 (21 September 2022)

Major Covid report suggests virus could have leaked from a US lab​
The Lancet’s paper said it is ‘feasible’ that Sars-Cov-2 emerged from a natural spillover or a lab incident, but elements provoke backlash​https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/s/sa-se/sarah-newey/
The Lancet is facing a backlash after a major Covid-19 Commission report suggested the disease may have leaked from a laboratory in the United States.

Published on Wednesday, the paper said it remains “feasible” that Sars-Cov-2 emerged from either a natural spillover or a laboratory incident, and called for the introduction of more safeguards to reduce the risk of either eventuality. 

But the report, the result of two years of work, also suggested American researchers could be culpable. As well as mentioning facilities in Wuhan, it noted that “independent researchers have not yet investigated” US labs, and said the National Institutes of Health has “resisted disclosing details” of its work. 

The report comes as controversy swirls the commission chair, the economist Prof Jeffrey Sachs.​
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...vid-origins-report-suggests-virus-could-have/​


.


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## DB008 (23 September 2022)

​(D).


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## DB008 (13 October 2022)

​




Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## moXJO (13 October 2022)

DB008 said:


> ​
> View attachment 147978



Amazed they admitted it. It was obvious after a month that it didn't stop the spread.


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## mullokintyre (18 October 2022)

According to this  paper from BioxRV , US labs are still  experimenting with creation of new starins of COVID.
This particular one had an 80% mortality rate in mice.



> The recently identified, globally predominant SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant (BA.1) is highly transmissible, even in fully vaccinated individuals, and causes attenuated disease compared with other major viral variants recognized to date1–7. The Omicron spike (S) protein, with an unusually large number of mutations, is considered the major driver of these phenotypes3,8. We generated chimeric recombinant SARS-CoV-2 encoding the S gene of Omicron in the backbone of an ancestral SARS-CoV-2 isolate and compared this virus with the naturally circulating Omicron variant. The Omicron S-bearing virus robustly escapes vaccine-induced humoral immunity, mainly due to mutations in the receptor-binding motif (RBM), yet unlike naturally occurring Omicron, efficiently replicates in cell lines and primary-like distal lung cells. In K18-hACE2 mice, while Omicron causes mild, non-fatal infection, the Omicron S-carrying virus inflicts severe disease with a mortality rate of 80%. This indicates that while the vaccine escape of Omicron is defined by mutations in S, major determinants of viral pathogenicity reside outside of S.




Why is the Fauci led NIH/NIAID still funding this research, despite their denials.


> This work was supported by Boston University startup funds (to MS and FD), National Institutes of Health, NIAID grants R01 AI159945 (to SB and MS) and R37 AI087846 (to MUG), NIH SIG grants S10-OD026983 and SS10-OD030269 (to NAC), Peter Paul Career Development Award (to FD), and BMBF SenseCoV2 01KI20172A (AE) and DFG Fokus COVID-19, EN 423/7-1 (AE).



Why are LABS still getting away with this research? We were told there would be no more Chimeric  cutting and pasting research?


> To test the role of the S protein in Omicron phenotype, we generated a chimeric recombinant virus containing the S gene of Omicron (USA-lh01/2021) in the backbone of an ancestral SARS-CoV-2 isolate (GISAID EPI_ISL_2732373)30 (*Fig. 1c*). To produce this chimeric Omi-S virus, we employed a modified form of cyclic polymerase extension reaction (CPER) (*Extended Data Fig. 1*) that yielded highly concentrated virus stocks, containing 0.5-5 × 106 plaque-forming units (PFU) per ml, from transfected cells within two days of transfection (*Fig. 1d,e*), obviating the need for additional viral amplification31,32.



Mick


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## wayneL (18 October 2022)

Right on!


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## DB008 (19 October 2022)




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## DB008 (19 October 2022)

Breaking - Moderna CEO




> Mr Bancel told a finance conference on Monday: 'I think it's going to be like the flu. If you're a 25-year-old, do you need an annual booster every year if you're healthy?
> 
> ‘You might want to... but I think it's going to be similar to flu where it's going to be people at high-risk, people above 50 years of age, people with comorbidities, people with cancer and other conditions, people with transplants.’


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## moXJO (19 October 2022)

I wouldn't get anymore shots from here on. The original was enough for the start when there was a risk. 

I do question if young people need the shots at all.


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## DB008 (19 October 2022)

I regret getting the jabs. Whish l never did


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## wayneL (19 October 2022)

Feeling very vindicated in not getting the jab(s).


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## DB008 (19 October 2022)




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## DB008 (19 October 2022)




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## Knobby22 (19 October 2022)

I love this thread.


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## SirRumpole (19 October 2022)

wayneL said:


> Feeling very vindicated in not getting the jab(s).



Feel vindicated in getting the jab.

No after effects, have not had a cold for months (touch wood).


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## wayneL (19 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Feel vindicated in getting the jab.
> 
> No after effects, have not had a cold for months (touch wood).



Fantastic, liberty and freedom of choice is the ducks nuts, isn't it? 👍


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## DB008 (26 October 2022)




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## DB008 (26 October 2022)

Biden Admin trying to give you myocarditis 

https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.c..._id=80632334&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email



> The Biden administration granted emergency use authorization to Pfizer and Moderna for a bivalent booster that targeted Wuhan and BA45. That vaccine received EUA based on mouse data (8-10 mice). There were no human data at the time of approval. (Please don't confuse the BA4/5 with BA1 bivalent)






> A recent pre-print has shown that the bivalent booster is not better at generating BA45 antibodies than getting the old booster one more time. This is the failure of not generating human trial data.






> Many universities are now requiring this vaccine for 20-year-old college students who have had three prior doses and Omicron. I think you have to be dropped on your head to actually believe a 20-year-old man in good health who's gotten three doses and just had Omicron will derive any benefit from this bivalent booster. I have never met even one doctor who thinks that that is true. And yet that is the position of the Biden administration.


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## moXJO (26 October 2022)

The authoritarian measures and those wanting to force others into vaccination was a disgusting part of history. 

Once again: never trust government or big pharma.


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## Miss Hale (29 October 2022)

wayneL said:


> Feeling very vindicated in not getting the jab(s).




Me too.


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## mullokintyre (29 October 2022)

Miss Hale said:


> Me too.



So you can now qualify yourself as being hale and hearty?
Mick


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## DB008 (1 November 2022)

Do people have such short memories?

LET’S DECLARE A PANDEMIC AMNESTY​
We need to forgive one another for what we did and said when we were in the dark about COVID.
By Emily Oster​
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/covid-response-forgiveness/671879/​

Melbourne - Covid Lockdowns. "They told me to", "I was following orders" doesn't stand....






​
.


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## mullokintyre (1 November 2022)

DB008 said:


> Do people have such short memories?
> 
> LET’S DECLARE A PANDEMIC AMNESTY​
> We need to forgive one another for what we did and said when we were in the dark about COVID.
> ...



Is Emily Oster a paid mouthpiece for Vicpol??
Mick


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## DB008 (2 November 2022)




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## wayneL (2 November 2022)

Pandemic amnesty?

Get knotted. And when you've done getting knotted, you can go a get knotted again.


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## wayneL (3 November 2022)

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1587950630932566016?t=Q9u58uzysNEf0bvUGkfP-Q&s=19

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1587950878744612865?t=_TAH9wPVbtr-AXOaxZEaQw&s=19

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1587950892036259841?t=fM09v9f5NXkU03fISEIzcA&s=19

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1587950905369976835?t=zpth1IU6krTpqP6GdbVYJw&s=19

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1587950907802763266?t=s0C6FOVDlPZTkiksDhT5Dw&s=19



			https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1587950919546802177?t=8m_nmwXjskrgMHNYhvdVEQ&s=19
		




			https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1587950972722094081?t=yXQfV3VDwfOIMx3j7SjZLg&s=19
		




			https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1587950987255357441?t=gKIswwsgvggOi6ENavX2ig&s=19
		




			https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1419700875459768325?t=6ak1-rJVTI0yf6a7yGZwPQ&s=19
		


...and so on. Much more in the actual thread.


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## wayneL (9 November 2022)

Gradually, folks are waking up.


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## wayneL (9 November 2022)

Sweden for the win ... Again.


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## IFocus (10 November 2022)

wayneL said:


> Sweden for the win ... Again.






Nah, if you read the report its pretty dum science at best.

Fails right across the board not breaking down the reasons for excess deaths.


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## mullokintyre (10 November 2022)

IFocus said:


> Nah, if you read the report its pretty dum science at best.
> 
> Fails right across the board not breaking down the reasons for excess deaths.



Did YOU read the report Mr Focus or just dismiss it because of its source?
The  figures quoted are from the OECD report which shows excess mortality, as distinct from purely covid related deaths.
One of the problems is that COVID related deaths vary from country to country in terms of people dying with Covid versus people dying from covid.
If as the report did, purely look at excess mortality, for which there can be no argument or variations in deffnition, Sweden has recorded the lowest. This is despite no lockdowns, no school closures, no business closures or the requirement for police riot squads to be out and about.
I don't  agree with his conclusions as to what can be learned, but you are pushing the boundaries to  suggest that the base data is non science.
As to it failing because it did not break down the reasons for excess deaths,  it is immaterial. Whether the reasons are more suicide, because people were afraid/prevented from seeing their doctors, the hospitals could not cope, or  a rush of shootings stabbings and drownings. 
The fact that Sweden had fewer for whatever reason suggests that lockdowns emergency legislation school and business closures  etc etc  were not the panacea that we were led to believe.
Mick


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## IFocus (10 November 2022)

Mick, look at the chart below, first two lines, Norway miles ahead in COVID death rate, .2 behind Sweden in excess deaths.

As a single point reference same as being made about Sweden you could argue the opposite.

Besides that comparing Sweden with Chile? 

Similar health systems and living standards?   

Yeah I did read it assumptions on assumptions more holes than the Titanic absolute shocker, quoting the OECD  numbers doesn't help it, sorry its rubbish.


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## mullokintyre (11 November 2022)

IFocus said:


> Mick, look at the chart below, first two lines, Norway miles ahead in COVID death rate, .2 behind Sweden in excess deaths.
> 
> As a single point reference same as being made about Sweden you could argue the opposite.
> 
> ...



The point of the original article was t suggest that Sweden compared favourably to everyone else in relation to excess deaths.
The fact that they did not do all of things mentioned may be the reason why.
The comparison with covid deaths is a furphy, does it matter if you die of corona or boredom, you are still dead.
Let me put it this way, compare the OZ statistics to  Sweden. 
There is  5.5 times more chance of dying of Covid in  Sweden. Thats bad.
But look at the excess deaths with cover all death reasons, and over all  there is a 2.5 times greater risk in OZ than in Sweden.
I don't know if you are betting man, but if you were , which one would you be betting your life on?
And as I tried to point out, the covid death numbers  are not an accurate guide as the stats methodology varies from place to place. 
As for your comment that there are 
"assumptions on assumptions more holes than the Titanic absolute shocker, quoting the OECD  numbers doesn't help it, sorry its rubbish".
Well I am sorry, but thats just  yuir opinion, you failed to  highlight the assumptions, the holes etc you see.

Mick


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## IFocus (11 November 2022)

Mick last comment on the matter, an assumption is made that not having a lock down you have less excess deaths.

This may be true but is a massive assumption and a complete lack of understanding.

The fact health systems, population density, living standards, transportation methods, culture, adherence to protocols, and five thousand outer reasons might just  be also responsible.

The report is rubbish's again sorry.


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## Knobby22 (11 November 2022)

Sweden has a high vaccination rate and a population that does the right things. When you compare them to Norway which has similar characteristics they look a bit sick.

Btw USA is very bad, anti vax thing didn't work out too well.


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## SirRumpole (29 November 2022)

NSW to repay millions in covid fines due to "insufficient information".









						NSW to pay back COVID fines worth millions of dollars | The New Daily
					

Millions of dollars worth of fines issued to thousands of people in NSW for breaching COVID-19 restrictions are being withdrawn by the state's revenue




					thenewdaily.com.au


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## moXJO (1 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> NSW to repay millions in covid fines due to "insufficient information".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good


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## Knobby22 (11 December 2022)

Good to look at the glass half fill.


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## sptrawler (12 December 2022)

Looks like the Covid panic is over.









						Psychologist rebates halved for mental health patients
					

Subsidised visits to psychologists will be halved within weeks, with the  federal government abandoning a program added at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						Think you've got COVID-19? From next year you'll need to get a referral to get a PCR test
					

The government is changing its approach to COVID-19 tests, shifting away from them being a surveillance tool to one used for ensuring "quick access" to antiviral treatments.




					www.abc.net.au


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## Knobby22 (16 December 2022)

This is a fascinating article, note excess deaths, in other words deaths higher than would have occurred if there was no covid. This does not mean that Covid is responsible for all of them directly.

Biggest losers are India, Russia, Indonesia, USA and Brazil. if you asked me the worst 5 I would definitely have had 4 of them. india's figures are shocking. As I have said my best friends wife is Indian and she lost relatives over there.





The 25 countries with the highest total estimated excess deaths between January 2020 and December 2021









						COVID-19 deaths are three times higher than previously reported, WHO estimates
					

New estimates show COVID-19 has been responsible for approximately 14.83 million excess deaths worldwide, up to three times more than previously reported.




					www.abc.net.au


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## DB008 (16 December 2022)

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## mullokintyre (19 December 2022)

Flu has overtaken COVID in the UK as the leading cause of hospitalisation.
From Statista


> More people have been admitted to hospital with influenza than Covid for the first time since the coronavirus pandemic began, according to the latest figures by the UK Health Security Agency. The rate of flu hospitalizations hit 6.8 per 100,000 people in the week leading up to December 11, while admissions for Covid patients hit 6.6 per 100,000.
> Flu hospitalizations rose 40 percent in that period, up from 3.9 per 100,000 people as of the week ending December 4. If these admissions continue to rise, they could be on track to surpass the figures recorded in the winter of 2017/18, which killed some 30,000 people, the Telegraph reports.



There was no COVID in 2017/18, so it may be difficult to portray these figures as being a result of weakened immunity.


> The over-85s and under-fives are seeing the highest rates of flu hospitalizations, with 23.1 per 100,000 people and 20.7 per 100,000 people, respectively. While the admissions levels for both infectious diseases are rising as we head into winter, the rate of flu hospitalizations is climbing more steeply.
> This surge hits as an already-overburdened NHS faces long waiting lists and a Strep A outbreak. In light of this, experts are calling for people to get a flu shot as soon as possible. Dr Conall Watson, Consultant Epidemiologist at the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA), explains: “The flu vaccine offers the best protection against severe illness and it’s not too late for everyone eligible to get it. Uptake is particularly low in those aged 2 and 3 so if your child is eligible please take up the offer.”



I will be lining up for my free flu shot in late March. so hopefully I don't join that list of the elderly who are more susceptible.
Mick


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## SirRumpole (21 December 2022)

Kerryn Phelps reveals that her partner suffered a severe reaction to the covid vaccine.

Of course, this will fire up the anti vaxxers, but reactions to any vaccine happen to a small segment of the population.

But, our politicians are too gutless to admit it, and still refuse to set up proper compensation procedures for those who do have reactions.









						Dr Kerryn Phelps reveals wife's 'devastating' vaccine injury
					

Dr Kerryn Phelps has spoken out about her wife's "severe" reaction to the COVID jab as she warned about the direction of Australia's current handling of the pandemic.




					thenewdaily.com.au


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## mullokintyre (21 December 2022)

Wow, this may cause problems.
Karen Phelphs, a Doctor no less, former member of parliament,  also a paid up member of the LGBTQ+ set, and one of the the Teal forerunners, has revealed that she not only has had an adverse reaction to the vaccine, but has revealed that doctors who had reservations about side affects were asked to to say anything that would impede the vaccine rollout.
My wife the Pharmacist had reservations, purely because of the lack of testing at a meaningful level.
But she said at the time, that  given the pandemic, she would be willing to take the risk.
She says that given what she knows now, she would probably still accept the risk of complications, because the alternative may have been much worse.
We have both had 4 doses, though given the generally mild  symptoms that the vast majority of people have had with the latest version of Covid, we may not get any further vaxes.
So far, neither of us has tested positive, so perhaps we can say the  vax did work.
But then again, my crazy anti vaxer sister in law has not had it either, though her vaxed husband, my brother, and some of  their kids have had it twice.
We will wait till some more data comes out.
Mick


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## DB008 (29 December 2022)

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