# Electric cars?



## tothemax6 (22 January 2011)

Hi All,
Interested to know what peoples opinions of electric cars are. I personally would prefer an electric car, but not for environmental reasons. I think the cheaper refueling and possible higher power-to-weight ratios would be a big plus. I also think that it might be a car I would have some chance of being able to fix myself, since it is more electrically based than the conventional highly mechanical petrol car.
I can see some disadvantages though, namely current battery technology (the cars power weakens with use, like a cordless drill). 

Thoughts on the electric car?


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## So_Cynical (22 January 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> Thoughts on the electric car?




Inevitable


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## sval62 (22 January 2011)

Electric cars will still have the same running gear as petrol powered vehicles i.e
gearbox,crankshaft,pistons and diffs etc so basically the mechanicals would be the same.
With the current technology we are in my opinion years away from a viable form of 
electric powered vehicle.
Give me a whomping fuel chomping V8 anytime, at least you can hear me coming:knightrid


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## Dowdy (22 January 2011)

I'm a big fan of the Tesla and word has it, it's going to come to Australia.

Electric supercar - beats a Ferrari in 1/4 mile


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## Smurf1976 (22 January 2011)

In the long term it's either electric or reasonably conventional liquid fuels made from unconventional sources (most likely algae). Which will win out 100 years from now is anyone's guess.

Hydrogen - nice idea but where are going to get the primary energy from to produce the hydrogen? It's an incredibly inefficient process unless you've got effectively free electricity to start with (and where are we going to get that from on a global scale?). The hydrogen could alternatively be obtained directly from natural gas, but in that case why not just run the car on natural gas and forget messing about with costly and difficult to handle hydrogen?

Natural gas - a very likely interim fuel largely because it can be made to work in conventional petrol engines in already built cars. There are a few issues, but it beats walking if there's little petrol available (quite a likely scenario in my view - note the gradual dismantling of free trade in oil and locking in of supplies by certain countries, thus leaving Australia etc with decreasing access to imports amidst a situation where the total quantity of oil exported by all countries looks to be declining anyway).

Another thing we'll almost certainly at least try doing in the medium term is turning coal into liquid fuels.

Would I buy an electric car now? As a second car for commuting or going to the shops - yes, the technology is good enough. As an only vehicle - no, the range and recharging infrastructure are too limited to be practical for long distance trips.

If your aim is efficient transport by car then at the moment I'd argue that either a diesel or a proper LPG engine (NOT a converted petrol engine, not even if converted at the factory unless we're talking about significant internal  mechanical changes not just a different fuel system) is the most sensible choice for a "go anywhere" vehicle. Failing that, a direct injected petrol engine beats the other petrol fuel systems pretty easily.

Hybrids don't really stack up all that well if the engine is petrol, and natural gas or electric have very limited refuelling infrastructure unless you only want to travel not too far from home (eg a commuter vehicle). Either that or it's a gas / electric company vehicle which does change things somewhat.


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## Happy (22 January 2011)

Long lasting battery is my sore point, or rather lack of it.

Another problem is that electricity supply might not hold with too many power socket evening charges.

We have en-masse Air Conditioners, now with many cars connected to grid might just kill it.
Califonia style blackouts, would not go well with happy electric car owners to wake up to half empty car battery.


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## drsmith (22 January 2011)

Perhaps the future for the Australian commuter is this.

http://www.reefbikes.com.au/products/Stingray-Road-Electric-Bicycle.html


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## tothemax6 (23 January 2011)

So_Cynical said:


> Inevitable



You mean inevitable you would buy one? 


			
				 Smurf1976 said:
			
		

> If your aim is efficient transport by car then at the moment I'd argue that either a diesel or a proper LPG engine.



More worried about power-to-weight and reliability.


> Long lasting battery is my sore point, or rather lack of it.
> Another problem is that electricity supply might not hold with too many power socket evening charges. We have en-masse Air Conditioners, now with many cars connected to grid might just kill it.
> California style blackouts, would not go well with happy electric car owners to wake up to half empty car battery.



Hmm good points. I would say in regards to the loading, if the cars are taken up slowly (and they probably would be), it would give time for power generation to expand to fit the increasing load. I also think constant blackouts are an unnatural situation, since a high demand for electricity raises the price, and causes new stations to be built to profit (removing the blackout).
Also people would probably purchase a portable generator if they purchased such a car and there was a risk of blackouts - just in case.


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## tothemax6 (23 January 2011)

drsmith said:


> Perhaps the future for the Australian commuter is this.
> http://www.reefbikes.com.au/products/Stingray-Road-Electric-Bicycle.html



Or electric skateboards. I am SERIOUS. Not only are they so easy to ride and get on/off of, they are lighter and smaller than electric bikes, they are cheaper, and they are (arguably) more cool. When you finish your commute, you can tuck it under your arm, walk into work and put it under your desk.
Gliding through a park on the bike-path on a sunny day on such a board is really enjoyable, I can tell you. 

Of course, the barrier to its use at the moment, are like most other things, a result of the government . In Queensland, they are power-limited - not speed-limited, to 200W. This means you cannot climb any kind of gradient, even if it is small. Other states outright ban them. Again, typical case of governments proving their primary nature - making peoples lives worse.


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## Tysonboss1 (23 January 2011)

sval62 said:


> With the current technology we are in my opinion years away from a viable form of
> electric powered vehicle.d






Buffet owns chunk of this company

It gets interesting a 5.30


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## Smurf1976 (23 January 2011)

With regard to charging, provided that it is done so as not to add to peak demand on the system then there is no real impact on electricity supply. 

If the majority of charging could be done overnight using off-peak power (the same principle as hot water heaters) then that would achieve this objective.

Beyond that it's just a matter of a higher off-peak load which, in practice, is just a matter of putting more fuel into existing power stations. 

The only exception in the Australian context is Tasmania, where everything electrical has always been upside down due to being energy constrained rather than peak capacity constrained (not necessarily a bad thing, it's just what happens when you use renewable energy as the main source of generation rather than fossil fuels). In that state (and also New Zealand and a few other places with predominantly renewable generation) there would need to be an expansion of supply, though not to a massive extent.


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## Tysonboss1 (24 January 2011)

330 km / charge
top speed of 140
10 year battery life

and instores in 2011, sounds exciting.


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## Aussiejeff (24 January 2011)

Tysonboss1 said:


> 330 km / charge
> top speed of 140
> 10 year battery life
> 
> and instores in 2011, sounds exciting.




I wouldn't get too carried away by the general EV hype.....especially with regard to battery life. I have an electric bike powered by a combo of Lithium ion & LiFePo batteries. While I love the extra "boost" and greater freedom it gives my old legs to ride longer distances, I can assure you that battery performance slowly but SURELY degrades over time and no. of charges. There is NO WAY you will get a "guaranteed" 330km per charge out of that vehicle, even after 5 years or only 50% of battery "life" (unless you always drive like a miser, well under the speed limits, on flat ground, at perfect ambient air temps - then you just might squeeze it out!)  

There are plenty of people who live in a unit, flat or house where they have no secure off-road area to re-charge an EV overnight? How would THEY cope? Can you imagine the vandalism that would occur to street EV charging points?

Maybe converting all current fuel Service Stations to incorporate Battery Quick Change Services (where you pull in and and a qualified EV mechanic takes say 10mins to swap your half-charged or near empty battery(s) for already fully charged one(s) is probably the best solution to this quandary - but imagine the infrastructure cost for that? Not any time soon....

Here's some sage advice from an article in a country well ahead of Oz with regard to considering the pros and cons of EV's - the LEAF in this instance -



> *Nissan has admitted that these batteries will degrade over time and you won’t get the same range after five years that you will get when you first drive the car*.
> 
> The (Nissan) survey said: “All batteries, like those in cellphones, laptops and vehicles, lose their capacity over time. At full charge when new, the Nissan Leaf will have an approximate range of 100 miles, but *can be more or less depending on usage and climate.*”



http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...good+for+hilly+areas&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

Will the "dream" of all-electric V's on our streets one day turn to reality? I seriously doubt it. A quantum leap in battery technology/pricing is what's needed here. While it's nice to dream, the odd nightmare can always shock one back to reality.... 

Chiz,

aj


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## Tysonboss1 (24 January 2011)

Aussiejeff said:


> I wouldn't get too carried away by the general EV hype.....especially with regard to battery life. I have an electric bike powered by a combo of Lithium ion & LiFePo batteries. While I love the extra "boost" and greater freedom it gives my old legs to ride longer distances, I can assure you that battery performance slowly but SURELY degrades over time and no. of charges. There is NO WAY you will get a "guaranteed" 330km per charge out of that vehicle, even after 5 years or only 50% of battery "life" (unless you always drive like a miser, well under the speed limits, on flat ground, at perfect ambient air temps - then you just might squeeze it out!)
> 
> There are plenty of people who live in a unit, flat or house where they have no secure off-road area to re-charge an EV overnight? How would THEY cope? Can you imagine the vandalism that would occur to street EV charging points?
> 
> ...




BYD are the global leaders in battery technology, and their batteries are said to be miles ahead of the competition.

But also battery technology is rapidly improving and you can easily upgrade to battery in say 5 years to what ever the latest and greatest battery is.

In regards to recharging, BYD are rolling fast charge stations where they can rapidly charge the battery, plus with home charging most people wouldn't require it.

There are challenges to the technology, but I think it is closer than you think. 

Hybrids are common all over the world now, 
Plugin Hybrids are selling common is some areas
Full electric is starting sales in USA this year.

If we can go from Horses to petrel powered vehicles surly the leap to electric is far smaller.


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## drsmith (24 January 2011)

Horse to internal combustion was a major leap in mobility whereas petrol to electric is not.


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## Tysonboss1 (24 January 2011)

drsmith said:


> Horse to internal combustion was a major leap in mobility whereas petrol to electric is not.




Not in the beginning. Their were many arguements that could be placed against internal combustion.

They were expensive
they were fragile, unreliable
Roads were not good enough,
loads that could be hauled were small ( compared to a stage coach )

Many would have seen the benefits of a good stallion over the initial problems with the automobile as a sign that the automobile was a fad.


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## drsmith (24 January 2011)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Not in the beginning. Their were many arguements that could be placed against internal combustion.



Perhaps I was a little too specific.

The technological leap from horse to internal combustion (or more generally,from animal/human labor to energy from burning fossil fuel) was a major leap forward in our ability to produce and use energy.

While electric vehicles are in their infancy and should improve with time, it's hard to see them matching the leap forward above in the absence of new ways of generating the energy (electricity) to run them. 

One would therefore expect their adaptation into the mainstream (if ever) to be longer.


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## Tysonboss1 (24 January 2011)

drsmith said:


> Perhaps I was a little too specific.
> 
> The technological leap from horse to internal combustion (or more generally,from animal/human labor to energy from burning fossil fuel) was a major leap forward in our ability to produce and use energy.
> 
> ...




I'll agree to disagree, Because I can easily see that mankinds leap from fossil fuels to renewable energy ( in all it's sources ) will be equal in importance to man learning to exploit oil.


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## Smurf1976 (24 January 2011)

drsmith said:


> Perhaps I was a little too specific.
> 
> The technological leap from horse to internal combustion (or more generally,from animal/human labor to energy from burning fossil fuel) was a major leap forward in our ability to produce and use energy.



The ability to profitably (in energy terms not necessarily financial) extract oil is however temporary such that internal combustion is at best a stepping stone to some other technology.


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## grandia3 (25 January 2011)

with wireless electricity currently under research
maybe we can even charge it while we are waiting for the red light?


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## drsmith (25 January 2011)

Tysonboss1 said:


> I'll agree to disagree, Because I can easily see that mankinds leap from fossil fuels to renewable energy ( in all it's sources ) will be equal in importance to man learning to exploit oil.



Renewable in that context would have to satisfy all of mankind's growing needs. 

I suspect our future lies in harnessing new types of energy, renewable and non-renewable in combination perhaps. Non-renewable will play a big role though though as we harness the resources of the solar system, the galaxy and perhaps the universe.

Energy from non-renewable resuorces has been the thrust behind the technological advancement of the past few hundred years.



Smurf1976 said:


> The ability to profitably (in energy terms not necessarily financial) extract oil is however temporary such that internal combustion is at best a stepping stone to some other technology.



That is true of all energy generation from fossil fuels.


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## Tysonboss1 (6 February 2011)

grandia3 said:


> with wireless electricity currently under research
> maybe we can even charge it while we are waiting for the red light?




Put solar panels on it and it will charge while your at work or doing your shopping,


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## tothemax6 (6 February 2011)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Put solar panels on it and it will charge while your at work or doing your shopping,



Would definitely help, and coupled with regenerative braking the car could turn out to be rather efficient indeed. I think perhaps 'the car that costs nothing to run' might be a bit out of reach though with current technology, but that would be the goal .


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## Chris45 (6 February 2011)

Tysonboss1 said:


> Buffet owns chunk of this company.



Tyson, you might like to listen to this recent edition of BBC's Global Business and Peter Day's fascinating interview with BYD's Wang Chuanfu about their electric car. Excellent stuff!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00d3djg


> This week on Global Business, Peter Day meets Wang Chuanfu, the founder of BYD.
> 
> BYD stands for Build Your Dreams, certainly true in the case of the unassuming Mr Wang, who founded his company only 15 years ago to make batteries for mobile phones and is now producing electric and hybrid cars.
> 
> ...


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## Dowdy (6 February 2011)

tothemax6 said:


> Would definitely help, and coupled with regenerative braking the car could turn out to be rather efficient indeed. I think perhaps 'the car that costs nothing to run' might be a bit out of reach though with current technology, but that would be the goal .





One idea I was mentioning to my brother is....
since electric cars don't need as much air intake as a combustion engine, wouldn't it be a good idea to put a mini wind turbine where the air intake is and that would move when the air flows in when the car moves and hence generate extra electricity.

It would also mean using less batteries and less weight.


When nano batteries become common then that will be the end of the combustion engine - _  In March 2005, Toshiba announced[1] that they had a new Lithium-Ion battery with a nanostructured lattice at the cathode and anode that allowed the battery to recharge a surprising eighty times faster than previously. Prototype models were able to charge to eighty percent capacity in one minute, and were one hundred percent recharged after 10 minutes. _

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanobatteries


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## IFocus (6 February 2011)

Moving my water tank today to put in a bigger one, fire water tank live in WA bush fires every where.

OK haven't loss totally yet water tanks to cars?  It reminded me about the time the guy who sunk my bore 18 to 20 years ago brought along the latest mobile phone in a cradle weighted around 10 to 15 Kg if I remember correctly.

Could only find a pic of similar hand set below.

I was working at the time around the latest process control instrumentation that had the latest smarts so I was interested as the talk was around wireless control.

We have gone from that to now where the phone size is determined by  screens, fingers and hand sizes not component or battery.

Reducing component size / power consumption and improving battery's was relatively quick and so I think it will be with cars *if* populations buy them.


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## Tysonboss1 (6 February 2011)

Dowdy said:


> One idea I was mentioning to my brother is....
> since electric cars don't need as much air intake as a combustion engine, wouldn't it be a good idea to put a mini wind turbine where the air intake is and that would move when the air flows in when the car moves and hence generate extra electricity.
> 
> It would also mean using less batteries and less weight.
> ...




I thought about that myself, However The extra drag caused would more than offset any electrical generation.it would come under the Perpetual motion theory.

_There is undisputed scientific consensus that perpetual motion would violate either the first law of thermodynamics, the second law of thermodynamics, or both. Machines which comply with both laws of thermodynamics but access energy from obscure sources are sometimes referred to as perpetual motion machines, although they do not meet the standard criteria for the name_


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## tothemax6 (6 February 2011)

Dowdy said:


> One idea I was mentioning to my brother is....
> since electric cars don't need as much air intake as a combustion engine, wouldn't it be a good idea to put a mini wind turbine where the air intake is and that would move when the air flows in when the car moves and hence generate extra electricity.
> 
> It would also mean using less batteries and less weight.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanobatteries



Tysonboss is right, this would constitute a perpetual motion machine. The energy in the air intake is actually created by the engine of the car pushing the car through the air, and hence this is not an external source of energy.

Indeed, ideally the electric car should require no air intake for its power components and motors. This would mean you would only need intake for the air conditioner, and hence could use smaller intakes away from the front of the car - allowing for a more aerodynamic body perhaps. However, in practice the power converters, the batteries, and the motors all run at less than 100% efficiency, and hence require cooling.


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## Smurf1976 (8 February 2011)

drsmith said:


> That is true of all energy generation from fossil fuels.



True. But to run a practical internal combustion engine requires a high grade liquid or gaseous fuel with a high energy density per unit of volume (since it has to fit on the relatively small vehicle).

In contrast, anything that will burn can be turned into electricity. Given that the majority of the world's known fossil fuels are not in the form of high grade liquids or gases suitable for use directly in cars, it is necessary to upgrade them (with a consequent huge energy loss by the way) into either high grade fuels or electricity if they are to be used for this purpose.

There's plenty of fuel around, it's just that most if it isn't high quality oil or natural gas. One of the reasons I'm none too keen on using gas or oil for things like running factory boilers or generating baseload (as distinct from peaking) electricity. It seems an incredible waste of limited resources when we have far more plentiful alternatives for generating power or fuelling boilers.


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## Tysonboss1 (8 February 2011)

Smurf1976 said:


> It seems an incredible waste of limited resources when we have far more* plentiful alternatives* for generating power or fuelling boilers.




Do you mean Coal.


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## Wysiwyg (9 November 2016)

I see Tesla is aiming to "ramp up" production of its cars. I wonder do these cars have longevity, reliability and strength. With the present global warming doomsday scenario, rapidly expanding the Tesla flock is smart business.


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## orr (11 November 2016)

Wysiwyg said:


> I see Tesla is aiming to "ramp up" production of its cars. I wonder do these cars have longevity, reliability and strength. With the present global warming doomsday scenario, rapidly expanding the Tesla flock is smart business.





I Don't disagree with the sentiment. 

And 98 years ago the guns fell silent... and if you turn away from the cenotaph in Martin Place and look to the north east you'll notice a car show room, I Don't ever remember a car showroom in Martin Pl in any time past. But there's one there now. And the car on display the harbinger of the cars that will come that never sip a drop of gasoline nor will any other that are produced by the company that designed and delivers these ones, cars that aim to be powered by the sun and the wind. And every other serious car manufacturer scrambles to catch up. 

Jack Rickards recent broadcast aired the rumour that forward orders for the Tesla Model 3 are up to 700,000 units...

Don Watson made the point on this weeks Q&A that politicians of either major party will not make any form of stand against the fossil fuel industry...
Elon Musk sees the production capacity for 100 of the Gigifactories he is construting the proto-type for in 
Nevarda, as we see jobs evaporate in our current car industry across Victoria and South Australia, in the Latrobe Valley coal power generation dinosaur whilst elsewhere the coal industry looks to destroy our agricutural assets using the fig leaf of the miniscule employment involved.
How long will it take for whoever fills the postion of Australin Minister for Industry to *grow a pair*

trump election has Tesla Stock trending down, for the time being...

From the time of the launch of the Chevy Volt to today(not much more than 5 years) has seen a fall in the price of battery storage from above $1000/US to sub$140/US per k/WHr of storage... the tide is turning.


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## orr (22 November 2016)

1360/hp  or 1mega/watt... sub 2years drawing board to roll out...
setting the new track record (7min 05sec)for an EV at Nurburgring;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJD-Ip1meuE


How long before FormulaE graces a track in Australia??? 
In some forms of agriculture you best to kill everything before you plant a new crop... Maybe the same sort of thing applies to the Australian car industry.


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## Wysiwyg (31 October 2017)

China's 10% of vehicles produced being E.V. from 2019 forces the hand of I.C.E. vehicle manufacturers. VW and Tesla leading the charge for global dominance. Opportunities in Australia manufacture batteries for house and car but too apethetic.



> *China electric-car rules to start in 2019; aggressive totals are world's highest*



This site has it all. https://www.greencarreports.com/new...-in-2019-aggressive-totals-are-worlds-highest


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## sptrawler (2 November 2017)

Jeez, I hope someone in Government reads this article, at last the car makers talking sense.
The biggest problem will be,getting politicians to see sense and put logics in front of their self interest.

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/volkswagen--ev-incentives--wrong--116168.html


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## Wysiwyg (2 November 2017)

To the point quotes from that article ...


> I think what should be allowed to happen is let the entrepreneurs, let the capitalists work it out, because *ultimately if it doesn’t make economic sense it won’t be sustainable*.



and


> "Volkswagen has made it very clear, very public, that they want to *introduce electric vehicles at the same pricepoint* as what you would pay now for a diesel.”


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## sptrawler (2 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> To the point quotes from that article ...
> 
> and




Yes as the article says, subsidies just distort a sensible market, which ends in tears.

The problem is, those with vested interests, always seem to be the vocal minority, that end up with the most say.


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## sptrawler (2 November 2017)

Why are the questions in the poll loaded?
You have to either vote for electric or petrol or nothing?

Why couldn't questions like:

Would battery electric be preferable?
Would hydrogen fuel cell electric be preferable?
Would petrol/diesel electric hybrid be preferable?

To just say is electric preferable over petrol, is no brainer dumb ABC lateline question.IMO
Of course electric is preferable over petrol, if everything else is constant, who set the questions?
*If you are going to post up ballots, at least use some thought provoking questions*.
Not questions, where you are chasing a known result, this just exemplifies why polls are useless. IMO

God I hope this isn't the tack, the forum is going to take, I first skimmed past the poll without reading it.
My rant for this week.


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## SirRumpole (2 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Why are the questions in the poll loaded?
> You have to either vote for electric or petrol or nothing?
> 
> Why couldn't questions like:
> ...




I agree with you. I did read the poll and didn't answer because  I personally would buy a hybrid, but there are other questions like "I prefer to take public transport..taxi..Uber...walk...cycle" etc.


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## Logique (15 November 2017)

So_Cynical said:


> Inevitable



They've worked their way through forestry, fishing, CSM fraccing, coal mining, (un)safe borders and gay marriage. Next they're coming after our cars.

Naturally, it will become _immoral_ to own a petrol or diesel engined car.


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## Value Collector (15 November 2017)

Logique said:


> Naturally, it will become _immoral_ to own a petrol or diesel engined car.




With 3000 people dying in Australia due to air pollution each year, costing $24 Billion. I can see that eventually it would be considered immoral.


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## SirRumpole (15 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> With 3000 people dying in Australia due to air pollution each year, costing $24 Billion. I can see that eventually it would be considered immoral.




What about all the people that die from pollution from coal fired power stations ? Not to mention mining accidents, black lung disease etc.


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## Value Collector (15 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> What about all the people that die from pollution from coal fired power stations ? Not to mention mining accidents, black lung disease etc.




Electricity comes from multiple sources, with coal in the slow process of being phased out.

but even then.

1, Coal plants tend to be located in areas where population is not dense, where as cars are blowing their emissions right into high population areas, often right in peoples faces.

2, Petrol and diesel comes from refineries that also pollute a lot, so its not just the cars themselves, but the refineries also, so you have multiple layers of pollution with petrol.

3, oil and gas industry has deaths just like the coal industry, however with electric cars only a portion of the energy comes from coal and that amount is shrinking by the year, 

4, Solar panels and electric vehicles sales are linked, People with solar panels are more likely to get an electric car, and people with electric cars are more likely to invest in solar panels, so electric cars lead to a faster up take of renewable energy.


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## Wysiwyg (15 November 2017)

Something progressive for the charging time of E.V.'s.


> The 5-minute charging allows flow-through charging stations where EV drivers wait just a few minutes to ‘fill up’ just as they would with regular petrol stations. In addition, with such short charging times, smaller batteries can be used in some EVs, making them more affordable.




http://www.electronicsonline.net.au...icle-in-five-minutes-1246683739#axzz4yT23nvFc
.


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## Smurf1976 (15 November 2017)

So far as coal-fired power versus petrol or diesel is concerned, I'd take coal-fired power any day.

How many wars are fought and dictators funded by oil? Rather a lot over the past century with untold human misery as the consequence.

Coal spilled on the ground or in the ocean is a minor problem environmentally and straightforward to clean up to an acceptable standard. Oil is a massively greater problem.

The world supply of coal is far greater than oil. Hence there's no need to be looking for it in environmentally sensitive areas or fighting over it.

There are a myriad of non-fuel uses for the world's relatively limited supply of oil versus far fewer other uses for the far more abundant coal. Switching from oil to coal makes sense on that basis alone.

A large coal-fired power station can be, and in any developed country will be, equipped with far better emissions controls in practice than millions of individually small petrol or diesel engines. Apart from CO2 which is not visible to the human eye, if you take a look at Loy Yang, Bayswater, Collie, Tarong or any other coal-fired power station in Australia then you'll be stunned at how clean it actually is considering the amount of power being produced.

To the extent that they do pollute, emissions from a coal-fired power station are going up a 200+ metre tall stack at a location usually well away from cities. That beats being emitted barely above ground level in a place where millions are living. Even if the power station was built in the CBD of a city it's at least not pumping fumes into the face of the driver behind you.

I'm not saying that coal is a great fuel, the CO2 issue is a definite downside, but it beats oil in every other way that's for sure. Oil also emits a lot of CO2 of course.

There's also a point that Australia imports a net 70% of the oil we use. That is we produce 0.3 million barrels per day and use about 1 million barrels per day. It's even higher on a gross basis since most of the fuel we use in vehicles is either imported as petrol / diesel or is refined here from imported crude, much of the Australian oil production being exported unrefined. That's a massive national security risk if the supply is disrupted.

In contrast electricity is, apart from remote areas relying on diesel generators and some oil-fired peaking plants in the grid (significant in SA, of minor relevance elsewhere), produced from Australian resources. Coal mined not far from the power station. Gas extracted in Australia. Renewable resources which are local by nature. That aspect alone is a reason to use electricity in preference to petrol or diesel where practical.


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## SirRumpole (15 November 2017)

Well, we are just going to have to go away from burning anything if we can avoid it, but our present government is tied to the coal industry through donations. Sure I would buy an electric car if it was cost competitive and had sufficient range.

So Smurf are you advocating a massive new investment in coal power stations to feed electric vehicles ?

Personally I think that diesel electric hybrids give the best of both worlds, electric for city use to cut pollution, diesel for country trips for the range.


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## Smurf1976 (15 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So Smurf are you advocating a massive new investment in coal power stations to feed electric vehicles ?



No. Renewables are the way things are going with the only question being how to get there.

But if, hypothetically, it's a choice between coal or petrol / diesel then I'll take coal not because it's good but because it has fewer bad points than petrol / diesel.

I'd rather we go renewable but if we need to get there via coal then that beats sticking with petrol in my view. At least with an electric car the opportunity is there to shift the power supply over time from coal / gas to renewable but with petrol we're stuck with fossil fuels until they run out.

In saying that I do acknowledge that we're stuck with petrol and diesel in many uses for quite some time yet and I'm not saying they ought to be banned etc. But if it's practical for someone to switch to electricity then I don't see the use of coal as the power source as a reason to not do so - it's still a step forward today and creates the possibility of taking the second step (renewable) in due course.

Plug-in electric hybrids make a lot of sense from an Australian perspective. Electric in the city and petrol / diesel for longer trips. That the electricity would be partly coming from coal doesn't change that in my view - it still emits CO2 yes but it gets pollution out of the cities and cuts our use of oil so it's a definite step forward.


----------



## Logique (16 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> With 3000 people dying in Australia due to air pollution each year, costing $24 Billion. I can see that eventually it would be considered immoral.



So pollution from cars kills 3,000 Australians annually?  And costs $24Bill?  Forgive me if I'm sceptical.


----------



## Wysiwyg (16 November 2017)

> So pollution from cars kills 3,000 Australians annually?




That was quoted from this particulate matter story. No reference to what source of matter.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/3...ls-for-tougher-standards-20151113-gkygv1.html


----------



## Value Collector (16 November 2017)

Logique said:


> So pollution from cars kills 3,000 Australians annually?  And costs $24Bill?  Forgive me if I'm sceptical.




Heres the link.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/3...ls-for-tougher-standards-20151113-gkygv1.html

Its not just Cars, its Air pollution in general, which in our cities cars and trucks are a major contributor to.

Air pollution causes a range of health concerns, everything from asthma to lung cancer, treating these things is where the $24 Billion goes.  

If anything you should be sceptical of claims that adding large quantities of poisonous gas to the air we breathe wouldn't cause increase medical costs and deaths.


----------



## Logique (17 November 2017)

Look, if electric cars/hybrids become approachable on price and convenience, it makes sense, especially within the metro cities.  

But there'd have to be lots of re-charging stations, e.g. how would an electric car go on an Adelaide -Alice Springs - Darwin road trip?  Or across the Nullarbor to/from Perth?

Let's have a gradual, fair and sensible transition. I wouldn't agree for example, with putting aged or disability pensioners out of their 1998 petrol engine Corollas, and making them buy a hybrid!


----------



## basilio (17 November 2017)

Logique said:


> Let's have a gradual, fair and sensible transition. I wouldn't agree for example, with putting aged or disability pensioners out of their 1998 petrol engine Corollas, and making them buy a hybrid!




Who's putting  up such a proposal ? Nix.
The need is to move as quickly as possible to all new vehicles being EV powered. In theory over the next 20 years most  petrol powered vehicles will be retired.

If one wanted to hasten that process then there could be cash payments made to trade in petrol vehicles for electric powered cars.

The difficult part is that if this process was started 20-30 years ago a slow transition would be possible. However the need to rapidly reduce  CO2 emissions if we are to have a ghost of a chance to stabilise global warming makes the current situation very difficult.

I will  propose  an interesting alternative for your aged or disability pensioners however.  Why not develop a fleet of self driving electric cars available for, initially, aged/disability pensioners ? These people would appreciate having access to transport at a cost that would compare very favourably to the registration, insurance, repairs and petrol costs of a 20 year old car.


----------



## Logique (17 November 2017)

basilio said:


> Who's putting  up such a proposal ? Nix....I will  propose  an interesting alternative for your aged or disability pensioners however.  Why not develop a fleet of *self driving electric cars available for, initially, aged/disability pensioners *? These people would appreciate having access to transport at a cost that would compare very favourably to the registration, insurance, repairs and petrol costs of a 20 year old car.



Why not Bas, although the self-driving thing might initially be a bit scarey, especially behind a B-Double on the Hwy!


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 November 2017)

basilio said:


> Who's putting  up such a proposal ? Nix.
> The need is to move as quickly as possible to all new vehicles being EV powered. In theory over the next 20 years most  petrol powered vehicles will be retired.
> 
> If one wanted to hasten that process then there could be cash payments made to trade in petrol vehicles for electric powered cars.



It takes about 20 years to turn over most of the fleet in Australia.

Sure there are still a few 40 year old cars around but looking at past experience (eg the leaded petrol phase out) it took about 20 years to go from virtually 100% of cars using it (very few diesels around back then) to a point where it was no longer viable to keep selling Super petrol due to lack of volume.

So if all new cars were EV's starting in 2020 then it will be about 2040 when it becomes hard to obtain petrol since pretty much nobody wants it. In the meantime there would be a roughly linear decline in consumption.

As for "cash for clunkers" schemes I'm not a fan of them personally. As a way to get unsafe vehicles or those which are emitting a lot of non-CO2 pollutants off the road they might have some merit. But if CO2 is the concern then once you add it all up they're a dud at least until we get to the point where the electricity used to charge an EV is predominantly renewable.

In the Australian context there's no realistic chance that Qld, NSW or Vic (where the bulk of the population lives) is going to have predominantly renewable electricity anytime soon so the value of a "cash for clunkers" scheme is somewhat limited versus other ways of spending the same money (eg increasing the proportion of renewable energy in the grid).


----------



## Junior (17 November 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> It takes about 20 years to turn over most of the fleet in Australia.
> 
> Sure there are still a few 40 year old cars around but looking at past experience (eg the leaded petrol phase out) it took about 20 years to go from virtually 100% of cars using it (very few diesels around back then) to a point where it was no longer viable to keep selling Super petrol due to lack of volume.
> 
> ...




Imagine how nice it would be, driving on the freeway with the window down, not choking on fumes and having the stereo drowned out by engine noise!

In 20 years' time it might be like walking past a smoker, seeing a lone car in traffic which produces exhaust, the driver receiving dirty looks from other motorists.


----------



## overhang (17 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla already rolled out super chargers between Brisbane and Adelaide. and more are coming rapidly. So road trips are not a problem, especially considering you can charge at your destination.
> 
> You can drive pretty much anywhere across the USA using the super charger network.
> 
> this guy drove Brisbane to Melbourne in his Tesla showing all the superchargers, and the more cars that sell the more charging locations will be built.





Thought I would move this reply to the electric car thread.  Brisbane to Adelaide is great, I recently drove from basically SA to Canberra including many hours on the Hume.  Not that I was looking that hard but I didn't see one charging station advertised.  Interestingly the only place I saw a charging station was a Telsa charging station at a random winery in Rutherglen which is a small town.

This article is worth a read which goes into some of the mistakes other countries have made with their charging station roll out.



> Our research suggests governments need to ensure that recharging stations work for motorists, rather than just for the network providers. Recharge points should have standardised fittings, easy payment options such as credit and debit card facilities, and prompt maintenance — all features of existing fuel stations.
> 
> Imagine if you could only fill up with petrol by pre-registering with a network, such as Caltex or Shell, and making sure you had paid in advance before taking a long trip. It sounds ridiculous, but that is the situation electric motorists face in some places.
> 
> Britain has multiple subscriber-only recharging networks, which frequently have chargers that are out of order.




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-09/why-is-australia-so-slow-at-adopting-electric-cars/9135798


----------



## Value Collector (17 November 2017)

Logique said:


> Look, if electric cars/hybrids become approachable on price and convenience, it makes sense, especially within the metro cities.
> 
> But there'd have to be lots of re-charging stations, e.g. how would an electric car go on an Adelaide -Alice Springs - Darwin road trip?  Or across the Nullarbor to/from Perth?




Tesla already has the Brisbane to Adelaide run covered, more are coming. you can already drive anywhere in the USA right now.

But talking about Adelaide to Darwin, or the Nullarbor, It makes a lot more sense to have a solar power and battery installation at a few key spots charging cars in the middle of no where, than to rely on ships bringing oil from over seas, then refining it to fuel, then having a network of trucks driving 1000's of kilometres just to drop fuel off for cars and trucks to refuel.

Imagine a self contained recharging station powered by solar and batteries, once its built it would require little maintenance and you could do away with a lot of the ships and trucks delivering liquid fuel to the middle of no where.


----------



## Value Collector (17 November 2017)

overhang said:


> Not that I was looking that hard but I didn't see one charging station advertised.  Interestingly the only place I saw a charging station was a Telsa charging station at a random winery in Rutherglen which is a small town.




They aren't advertised, All the locations are built into the cars system, and when you add the trip into your cars GPS, it will automatically suggest locations to stop along the way. (no need to advertise them)

They are generally put at locations that are considered nice places to stop, with toilets food etc. and are spaced at intervals that are considered good driving rhythm.

This map is over a year old, but look how they have covered the main USA road trip routes.


----------



## Wysiwyg (17 November 2017)

Henrik Fisker EMotion claims 804 klm from one charge.

*Fisker claims solid-state battery ‘breakthrough’ for electric cars with ‘500 miles range and 1 min charging’*

One of the reasons for not first adopting.


----------



## Value Collector (17 November 2017)

Logique said:


> Why not Bas, although the self-driving thing might initially be a bit scarey, especially behind a B-Double on the Hwy!



This guy gets his parents to try Auto pilot for the first time, they love it.


----------



## Value Collector (17 November 2017)

Teslas auto pilot avoiding crashes, the one at 30second mark is freaky, the cars alert goes off just before the cars in front crash, Some how it measured the speed of the cars in front and knew they were going to crash before they actually did.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> This guy gets his parents to try Auto pilot for the first time, they love it.





I'm getting closer to convinced.


----------



## overhang (17 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Teslas auto pilot avoiding crashes, the one at 30second mark is freaky, the cars alert goes off just before the cars in front crash, Some how it measured the speed of the cars in front and knew they were going to crash before they actually did.





And then there are times they cause crashes, well at least that's what the family allege who claim it was in autopilot and were suing Telsa. 

Warning, the footage isn't graphic at all however some people might find it uncomfortable as it is a fatal crash.


----------



## Value Collector (17 November 2017)

overhang said:


> And then there are times they cause crashes, well at least that's what the family allege who claim it was in autopilot and were suing Telsa.
> 
> Warning, the footage isn't graphic at all however some people might find it uncomfortable as it is a fatal crash.





Yeah, so do people.

I don't expect autopilots to be perfect, just like the people they replace are not perfect.

If human drivers cause 1 death per 100 Million kilometres driven, while auto pilots systems cause 1 death per 200 million kilometres driven, I see that as a vast improvement.

This article says 50% less crashes happen with autopilot vs human only drivers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...s-autopilot-makes-accidents-50pc-less-likely/


----------



## Wysiwyg (17 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Teslas auto pilot avoiding crashes, the one at 30second mark is freaky, the cars alert goes off just before the cars in front crash, Some how it measured the speed of the cars in front and knew they were going to crash before they actually did.



Where is the alert? I paused the images from car in front veering to impact and the Tesla car was doing 113 km/h after the impact. I.e. the crash was visual before Tesla vehicle reacted and slowed down.


----------



## Value Collector (17 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Where is the alert? I paused the images from car in front veering to impact and the Tesla car was doing 113 km/h after the impact. I.e. the crash was visual before Tesla vehicle reacted and slowed down.




at 31 second mark, just before impact you hear the car beeping, thats the noise it makes to alert the driver something is happening and needs attention.


----------



## Wysiwyg (17 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> at 31 second mark, just before impact you hear the car beeping, thats the noise it makes to alert the driver something is happening and needs attention.



Lol. I had the volume down because there are people here. Very good technology and just need the human to heed the warning and react. Could be hard for human to do if in a happy state listening to music.


----------



## Value Collector (18 November 2017)

Tesla just released its surprise new sports car.

1000 km range
0 - 60 mph (96km/h) in 1.9 seconds.
Top speed of over 400 km/h

It smacks down any petrol car in performance.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 November 2017)

Top speed 400kmh.

Very useful on 100kmh speed limited roads.

The major type of vehicle being sold in Australia are the small cars and the medium SUV types, so Tesla would be better off concentrating on those.

https://www.canstar.com.au/car-loans/top-10-selling-cars/


----------



## Value Collector (18 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Top speed 400kmh.
> 
> Very useful on 100kmh speed limited roads.
> 
> ...




This is a super high end vehicle, It's not designed to compete at the lower end of the market, It's to compete with Lamborghini and Ferrari to show that electric drive chains are superior.

If the electric car industry focused on slow little compact cars, the industry would be dead in the water, Having an electric vehicle as the fastest car on the road that eats Lamborghinis alive generates buzz, and helps sell the other consumer models and will help the Trucks.


----------



## Logique (18 November 2017)

Of course a kWh of electricity will cost a gazillion dollars by the time this all happens.


----------



## Value Collector (18 November 2017)

Logique said:


> Of course a kWh of electricity will cost a gazillion dollars by the time this all happens.




In the truck announcement, Elon said his "Mega chargers" for the trucks are going to have a guaranteed price of 7cents per KWH, because he is going to power them with Solar panels and Tesla power packs.

But, do you think Oil is going to stay cheap? electricity with its multiple sources will continue to be the cheapest energy source, (Australia's current issues are political, not engineering issues)

----------------

Listen at the 7 minute mark, he talks about guaranteeing electricity charges.


----------



## satanoperca (18 November 2017)

Go Musk, nothing better than great design in every aspect.

The pass of change is accelerating


----------



## Triple B (18 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Top speed 400kmh




You wont use that



Value Collector said:


> 1000 km range
> 0 - 60 mph (96km/h) in 1.9 seconds.



concentrate on these. Drag car acceleration with diesel range at motorcycle fill  cost

The Guy is getting **** done.


----------



## Wysiwyg (18 November 2017)

2 years to wait. The truck would sell right now.


----------



## Wysiwyg (18 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla just released its surprise new sports car.
> 
> 1000 km range
> 0 - 60 mph (96km/h) in 1.9 seconds.
> ...



What about the presently manufactured Tesla vehicles with at least the range? He might be focusing on the yuppy market and leave the typical vehicles for the established manufacturers. Same path as the iphone (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,X) First adopters beware in my opinion.


----------



## Value Collector (18 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> What about the presently manufactured Tesla vehicles with at least the range? He might be focusing on the yuppy market and leave the typical vehicles for the established manufacturers. Same path as the iphone (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,X) First adopters beware in my opinion.




The model 3 will have a range of 480 km's, thats more than my current car, the Model 3 isn't cheap, but its much cheaper than some of the commodores, so its fair priced for its class.







> Same path as the iphone (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,X) First adopters beware in my opinion.




Those phones were good phones, lol.

I wouldn't have given up years of having an iPhone  4 or 5 just because the I phone X was coming out in the distant future.


----------



## sptrawler (18 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla already has the Brisbane to Adelaide run covered, more are coming. you can already drive anywhere in the USA right now.
> 
> But talking about Adelaide to Darwin, or the Nullarbor, It makes a lot more sense to have a solar power and battery installation at a few key spots charging cars in the middle of no where, than to rely on ships bringing oil from over seas, then refining it to fuel, then having a network of trucks driving 1000's of kilometres just to drop fuel off for cars and trucks to refuel.
> 
> Imagine a self contained recharging station powered by solar and batteries, once its built it would require little maintenance and you could do away with a lot of the ships and trucks delivering liquid fuel to the middle of no where.




It all sounds wonderful, but the charging station thing is great, while there is few cars wanting to use it.
Go and stand above any major road, freeway, intersection and think about all of them cars/trucks requiring a charge.
I know they won't all need a charge at the same time, but the pure volume of vehicles is amazing, to have enough charging points will take years.
They haven't even decided on a standard charging plug design, or indeed a standard voltage, the process will take years.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> They haven't even decided on a standard charging plug design, or indeed a standard voltage, the process will take years.



This.

Long term I very much doubt that car manufacturers will own the charging stations just as Ford or Toyota don’t sell petrol or diesel. Or Rinnai don’t sell the gas that runs their water heaters. Or everyone from Apple to Kelvinator don’t sell the electricity that runs the products they make.

Someone else will run the charging stations in the long term almost certainly but I can certainly see the logic in an electric vehicle manufacturer setting them up initially to support use of their vehicles.

What remains to be seen is who will own them longer term?

The likes of Shell, BP etc is a definite possibility.

So is the electricity retailers.

Possibly the electricity network owners might do it.

Here in Tas there’s one in Hobart at a Nissan dealership but I’m pretty sure they’re not restricting use to only charging Nissan vehicles (the same dealer also sells Mitsubishi, Mazda and Kia but I don’t think they’d care too much if someone charged any car there). DJ Motors Nissan in Argyle St (Hobart) for those who want to use it.

There’s another one being built by a local council too. To my understanding their thought is that it may attract a few more customers to local businesses as a side benefit. It’s at Rosny Park not far from Eastlands for the locals (that’s a major suburban shopping centre).

For those not in such a hurry and driving to the West Coast of Tas there’s some normal power points at the public BBQ area outside Tungatinah power station (right beside the highway). They get used for some odd things, like people with RV’s with a clothes dryer sitting on the ground and an extension lead run to the power (seen that a few times actually - looks somewhat funny in a way) but you could plug your car in if you wanted to. They’re just standard power points though not an electric vehicle charger as such and you’ll need your own extension lead. No prizes for guessing that the BBQ’s are also electric given the location.


----------



## luutzu (18 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> This is a super high end vehicle, It's not designed to compete at the lower end of the market, It's to compete with Lamborghini and Ferrari to show that electric drive chains are superior.
> 
> If the electric car industry focused on slow little compact cars, the industry would be dead in the water, Having an electric vehicle as the fastest car on the road that eats Lamborghinis alive generates buzz, and helps sell the other consumer models and will help the Trucks.




Buzz and luring investors and lenders to park their cash in Tesla's bank account doesn't hurt either 

It's going to be at least 10 years before people would adopt EV in any meaningful way, on any meaningful scale.

That's not because people don't like EV or doubt its ability to be driven around or such. It's just a matter of affordability and the seconds, the mechanic and insurance (costs) issue.

For the lucky SOBs [ahem ] who can afford a Tesla early... money and costs of repair might not matter much, if at all.

For the average Joe who's living from paycheck to paycheck, even if the Model 3 is affordable at $US25K, how much will Tesla or their approved mechanics costs per visit? How much will insurers charge? 

I took my 6 year old car to get a pink slip some months ago. The mechanic don't even bothered looking the car over and charge me $45. 

How much will it costs the owner to take their Tesla for a check up at one of those showroom-like mechanics? When my car was brand spanking new, I took it for an oil change and they charge me $250. I heard Tesla charges you by the minute to just look at its user manual. 

With oil being finite, and of course corporations' concern for the environment, electric vehicles is the future. Just the rate of adoption would be some 10 to 20 years before there's enough of the basic infrastructure and support system to make it affordable for the masses. 

Tesla is currently burning some $1B a quarter. 10 years would make it 40 quarters... then there's the competition from established car manufaturers whose existing products are bringing in the cash. Then there's the logistics, the relationship with suppliers, gov't and other infrastructures they can leverage.

Tesla is going to have a pretty tough time making it out of this alive. 

But credit where credit's due. Musk is changing the world. Just that history might be repeating with the original Tesla - a man of genius who gave the world its electric grid etc. etc. He died in poverty.


----------



## sptrawler (18 November 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> This.
> 
> Long term I very much doubt that car manufacturers will own the charging stations just as Ford or Toyota don’t sell petrol or diesel.




I agree with you completely, however it is a bit of a hen or egg story, mass infrastructure won't be rolled out until there is a demand.


----------



## Value Collector (18 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> It all sounds wonderful, but the charging station thing is great, while there is few cars wanting to use it.
> Go and stand above any major road, freeway, intersection and think about all of them cars/trucks requiring a charge.
> I know they won't all need a charge at the same time, but the pure volume of vehicles is amazing, to have enough charging points will take years.
> They haven't even decided on a standard charging plug design, or indeed a standard voltage, the process will take years.



Most of them will be charging at home


----------



## Value Collector (18 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Buzz and luring investors and lenders to park their cash in Tesla's bank account doesn't hurt either
> 
> It's going to be at least 10 years before people would adopt EV in any meaningful way, on any meaningful scale.
> 
> ...



There is a lot less parts that wear out or need regular "service" on an electric car


----------



## satanoperca (18 November 2017)

I firmly believe this is the future, however after ready the discussion can also see some issues.

I live inner city, so don't do a lot of km's per week, 400 would be a lot, one charge.
EV's are suited to those living inner city, however, those of us that live inner city park our cars on the street, garages (land is very expensive). How do we charge them?

While I live in a house in inner city Melbourne, there are lots of apartment towers, I used to live in one in the docklands, had a car park as most do, but again, I couldn't see the body corporate agreeing to put in charging points in every car park.

Where I see EV's and autonomous transport really taking hold fast will be in the uber/taxi sector, but again an autonomous transport vehicle picking up customers every minute of every hour, will need to get charged at least once a day, again the infrastructure needs to be place.

I see this industry as the most effected and computerization can create the greatest efficiency in customer load and requirements, plus no need to pay a driver


----------



## SirRumpole (18 November 2017)

satanoperca said:


> How do we charge them?




I guess you would go to a "charging centre" once a week, just like you go to a petrol station now. It depends on how long it takes to charge I suppose, 3 hours could be inconvenient, 20 minutes would be acceptable.


----------



## Wysiwyg (18 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Buzz and luring investors and lenders to park their cash in Tesla's bank account doesn't hurt either



Have to give him credit for the fanfare. Best way to deliver the new generation of road vehicle is get attention.


> It's going to be at least 10 years before people would adopt EV in any meaningful way, on any meaningful scale.



Probably longer in Australia with large distance between places. 1000km on one charge for standard vehicles will allay range fear. Fast charge will dispel waiting time issue.


> That's not because people don't like EV or doubt its ability to be driven around or such. It's just a matter of affordability and the seconds, the mechanic and insurance (costs) issue.



Yes that is what will need to be known and improved. The biggies being lifespan and cost including installation of a battery (degradation over time), the service interval of a traction motor, the cost including installation of a failed traction motor.


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

satanoperca said:


> I live inner city, so don't do a lot of km's per week, 400 would be a lot, one charge.
> EV's are suited to those living inner city, however, those of us that live inner city park our cars on the street, garages (land is very expensive). How do we charge them?




As Rumpy suggested 20 -30 mins at a charging station one a week would probably do you, while you do the grocery shopping.

But their is electricity everywhere, this company is turning power poles into charging stations.


----------



## luutzu (19 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> As Rumpy suggested 20 -30 mins at a charging station one a week would probably do you, while you do the grocery shopping.
> 
> But their is electricity everywhere, this company is turning power poles into charging stations.





Yea, there's power everywhere and I don't think there'll be issue with finding or setting up a charging station.

Problem would be the cost Tesla or charging station operators would charge per kW. It'll be whatever costPlus they want once enough EV is out there. Maybe competition might bring that down.

To set up a charger at home... I'd imagine you'd have to put in a dedicated line with 3-phase power or something.

Then there's the scratches, dents and bumps. Tesla looks like they're going the Apple model where they don't outsource parts and services to any cheap seconds market and corner shop mechanics.


----------



## luutzu (19 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Have to give him credit for the fanfare. Best way to deliver the new generation of road vehicle is get attention.
> Probably longer in Australia with large distance between places. 1000km on one charge for standard vehicles will allay range fear. Fast charge will dispel waiting time issue.
> Yes that is what will need to be known and improved. The biggies being lifespan and cost including installation of a battery (degradation over time), the service interval of a traction motor, the cost including installation of a failed traction motor.




I guess every CEO must also be a showman now. I admire people who do stuff rather than sell stuff, especially selling it like they created it themselves.

I mean we all think Steve Jobs is a genius, and maybe he is in a business sense... but he's not the genius behind the technology as he or the media portrays it to be.

Drove the kids on a hired electric scooter in Bali recently. It was at a massive resort park out of public roads and one of them had on a helmet so we were responsible ... One full charge lasts about an hour. Chinese made with the barest minimum hardware.. and it was pretty dam good. 

So yea, if I ever have $100K+ to throw around I'd get a Tesla right now. But I'm still changing my own car oil so it would hurt me very badly to take a Tesla to a shop and be screwed over by their authorised repairers. 


The problem with digital and electronics is that the manufacturer can decide when they want certain parts to break down. I guess they can also design those warranty+5days lifespan on mechanical knobs too.

But yea, a Toyota Camry works fine with me. I drove my brother's very expensive BMW and it was no difference to the Suzuki Swift the wife got me for some reason. I guess she knows me better than I know myself


----------



## Wysiwyg (19 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> So yea, if I ever have $100K+ to throw around I'd get a Tesla right now. But I'm still changing my own car oil so it would hurt me very badly to take a Tesla to a shop and be screwed over by their authorised repairers.



"Build quality is a major issue with Tesla right now". I assume cheap plastic crap, thin/soft metals and new car manufacturer assembly and alignment issues. This video is current with a new car experience.



As I said before, first adopters beware.


----------



## luutzu (19 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> "Build quality is a major issue with Tesla right now". I assume cheap plastic crap, thin/soft metals and new car manufacturer assembly and alignment issues. This video is current with a new car experience.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said before, first adopters beware.





Early adopters, like pioneers, gets arrows and scalped.

But I'd imagine I'd be grinning the first week or two if I have my own Tesla though. It does look pretty freakin cool.

I'd probably offered to drive everyone everywhere that first few weeks. Like when we first got our Ps.


----------



## Logique (19 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> In the truck announcement, Elon said his "Mega chargers" for the trucks are going to have a guaranteed price of *7cents per KWH*, because he is going to power them with Solar panels and Tesla power packs.
> But, do you think Oil is going to stay cheap? electricity with its multiple sources will continue to be the cheapest energy source, (Australia's current issues are political, not engineering issues)
> ----------------Listen at the 7 minute mark, he talks about guaranteeing electricity charges.



Elon Musk? 7c kWh electricity? Don't make me laugh


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

Logique said:


> Elon Musk? 7c kWh electricity? Don't make me laugh



Whats funny?


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea, there's power everywhere and I don't think there'll be issue with finding or setting up a charging station.
> 
> Problem would be the cost Tesla or charging station operators would charge per kW. It'll be whatever costPlus they want once enough EV is out there. Maybe competition might bring that down.
> 
> ...



What would be wrong with paying for electricity? You pay for fuel by the liter already.

You can charge from home using a standard power point, or if you want faster charging you can install a 3 phase plug.

Agl currently has a $1 per day unlimited car charging plan.

Also, charging station would be much cheaper to set up than a petrol station, the also have lower running costs, because they can be unmanned, and don't require trucks delivering fuel etc


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea, there's power everywhere and I don't think there'll be issue with finding or setting up a charging station.
> 
> Problem would be the cost Tesla or charging station operators would charge per kW. It'll be whatever costPlus they want once enough EV is out there. Maybe competition might bring that down.
> 
> ...



What would be wrong with paying for electricity? You pay for fuel by the liter already.

You can charge from home using a standard power point, or if you want faster charging you can install a 3 phase plug.

Agl currently has a $1 per day unlimited car charging plan.

Also, charging station would be much cheaper to set up than a petrol station, the also have lower running costs, because they can be unmanned, and don't require trucks delivering fuel etc


----------



## luutzu (19 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> What would be wrong with paying for electricity? You pay for fuel by the liter already.
> 
> You can charge from home using a standard power point, or if you want faster charging you can install a 3 phase plug.
> 
> ...




Nothing's wrong with paying people to use their services and labour. Just that there's a difference between what's fair and what's entrepreneurial. 

Not all efficiency would be passed onto the consumer. We all know that. 

AGL might offer that $1 a day now, they'll get it back a few times over whenever they find it's appropriate for their shareholders. Kinda like initially buying power from domestic solar panels at some 20cents... they know buy the same power for 7cents or so, sell the same power to the same set of consumers for 21cents. 

Saw on YouTube that Tesla in the US is starting to charge its SuperCharger user $0.45 per minute they left their charged car at the station.

So the moment your car is charged, you have 5 minutes to get out or be slug the fee.

The lady was a bit worried whether she overparked or not, and how much extra she's going to have to pay at her next Tesla checkup. 

I'm guessing Tesla haven't had time to build an app to notify the car's owner their car has been charged. So owners will either have to stay in the car while it's being charged, or run back and forth, or just pay up. 

All for the good of fellow customers so they won't wait for inconsiderate owners who parked their car their all day, of course.

Getting a 3-phase power line to your garrage won't be cheap either. Might need a separate meter, a seperate account, a whole bunch of paper work then a suitably qualified electrician who charges $500 for just cutting a cable from a pole. 

So yea, Tesla and EVs are nice. Just for the average people who have to think about food, bills, taxes... it's going to be a while before the adoption rate make it economical. Until then, the first adopters will have to not think about the costs, just the pleasure of owning one.


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## SirRumpole (19 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Until then, the first adopters will have to not think about the costs, just the pleasure of owning one.




And the rest of us will be using them as guinea pigs to see what the problems are.

I wonder if Tesla co is using their own product as company cars ?


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## Wysiwyg (19 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And the rest of us will be using them as guinea pigs to see what the problems are.
> 
> I wonder if Tesla co is using their own product as company cars ?



I wonder if they stringently test them. Like shake the car for hours, operate the electronics  thousands of times and run the motor continuously until failure. With a rush to beat everyone to market obviously not.


----------



## luutzu (19 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And the rest of us will be using them as guinea pigs to see what the problems are.
> 
> I wonder if Tesla co is using their own product as company cars ?




That's what one owner I saw on YT said he feels like too. 

But to be fair to Tesla, they're doing something unique with nothing but ambition, genius and lots of other people's money.

The Toyota, VW and Great Wall [haha] of the world will be studying and cut out all the bells and whistles. Put in their proper manufacturing processes and logistics and might win the day.

Maybe I'm showing my age but I get into a car and all I care about is going forward, reverse, fuel in the tank. Done. 

Just got the bluetooth to connect on one car, the other I just turn the phone louder for the music because its cheapy "bluetooth" add-on don't work very well and I'd need to read the user manual to adjust and upgrade its software. 

So a car with all the height adjustments, the auto-drive and fancy stuff... nice, expensive, good to have but a bit heavy on the pocket.

Kinda like that electric scooter I hired. It has 3 LED indicator showing the battery life. And that's it. For the speedometer you use your own judgement. The weather and temperature you check how sweaty you get. 

That's why Henry Ford won the day. He doesn't focus on the comfort (or safety), don't care for a chauffer (or Tesla's e-equivalent), or care for the look (any colour as long as it's black). 

Don't go that far but yea.


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## Smurf1976 (19 November 2017)

One consequence of mass adoption of electric vehicles is that if home charging is the dominant and economical means then that ought to have some broader influence. Houses with off street parking with power available become more attractive and gain value relative to those without it.

Significant costs for apartment complexes etc once residents demand that power is available for vehicle charging.

Not a good time to be in the business of maintaining vehicles given that electric cars by their nature need far less routine maintenance.

If self driving vehicles become common then that changes society in far broader ways since those who cannot now drive will no longer have that barrier.

It’ll be the saviour of the electricity grid in climates where standalone solar is a serious option. That idea doesn’t work nearly as well once the need to charge vehicles is added.

There’s a lot of broader outcomes from this one. Just like how computers have gone radically further than the obvious replacement of typewriters and aircraft did far more than simply diverting passengers from trains and ships. Entire new industries spring up, and others are wiped out, with this sort of change.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 November 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> Entire new industries spring up, and others are wiped out, with this sort of change.




And let's not forget that if electric cars take over, governments will be losing billions in fuel excise revenue which they will have to make up elsewhere.

Any guesses for how they will do that ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> Any guesses for how they will do that ?




Taxing electricity would be politically difficult given its many other uses and that voters are already unhappy with prices.

So my guess is road user charging on ALL highways or other roads maintained by state / federal governments.

So everything apart from local roads, which are maintained by councils, becomes a toll road.

At that point we’ll quite likely see fuel excise abolished as a form of politically popular compensation to the mostly lower income people plus those living in the middle of nowhere who will still be using petrol / diesel. A revenue neutral move which also avoids allegations of double taxation.

We’re a long way from that point though and I doubt we’ll see any serious move for quite a few years yet.


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## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Nothing's wrong with paying people to use their services and labour. Just that there's a difference between what's fair and what's entrepreneurial.
> 
> Not all efficiency would be passed onto the consumer. We all know that.
> 
> ...



Tesla started charging the penalty because they want you to move your car as soon as it’s charged, and not leave it parked there all day.

But Tesla supercharger network is not for profit, all revenue is going to be used to expand and maintain the network


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And the rest of us will be using them as guinea pigs to see what the problems are.
> 
> I wonder if Tesla co is using their own product as company cars ?



The model 3’s roll out is

1, company employees
2, customers in local area of factory
3, rest of California
4, spread west across America
5, left hand drive countries 
6, right hand drive countries

Hence why I won’t get mine till early 2019.

If you place your order today, there will be about 450,000 people that get their cars before you, so you are hardly a first adopter,


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> I wonder if they stringently test them. Like shake the car for hours, operate the electronics  thousands of times and run the motor continuously until failure. With a rush to beat everyone to market obviously not.



The model 3 spent 18 months in design and testing before it started production, they are hardly rushing.

The car that was announced on Friday won’t be in production till 2020, and the truck enters production in 2 years.

It’s like you guys just make up stories in your head.


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> And let's not forget that if electric cars take over, governments will be losing billions in fuel excise revenue which they will have to make up elsewhere.
> 
> Any guesses for how they will do that ?



Maybe some sort of added per kilometre charge to registration.

So the people using the roads more pay more, that’s why the tax was on fuel in the first place.


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## Gringotts Bank (19 November 2017)

related 

http://www.driverless-future.com/?page_id=384


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## luutzu (19 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla started charging the penalty because they want you to move your car as soon as it’s charged, and not leave it parked there all day.
> 
> But Tesla supercharger network is not for profit, all revenue is going to be used to expand and maintain the network




For sure it's for the good of fellow travellers 

Even Sydney Airport now offer 15 minutes free pick up. Tesla, being more efficient, is offering 5 mins before they charge some $30 per hour, counting by the minute - to be fair. 

I'm betting that their systems currently do not ping or send a text to the owner warning them to be more considerate.

Everything about Tesla is not for profit 
BUt profit will come, with a vengeance.


----------



## Wysiwyg (19 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It’s like you guys just make up stories in your head.



Did you watch that video till the end and listen to what he said? 11 months ironing out issues with the service agents on his new Tesla car. It's like not made up.


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> For sure it's for the good of fellow travellers
> 
> Even Sydney Airport now offer 15 minutes free pick up. Tesla, being more efficient, is offering 5 mins before they charge some $30 per hour, counting by the minute - to be fair.
> 
> ...




They only brought in the penalty because people leaving their cars in the charging bay for hours was becoming a problem.

You can monitor the charge on your phone app, and it notifies you when you reach what ever charge you set it for.

No, tesla definitely wants to make a profit selling cars and trucks, just not from charging.


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Did you watch that video till the end and listen to what he said? 11 months ironing out issues with the service agents on his new Tesla car. It's like not made up.



Name any car you want and you will find some one complaining that they have had trouble with it.

I was saying you made about a story by saying they rushed to market without testing their products.

I watch heaps of tesla reviews and clogs etc, plenty of happy customers, there was a few teething problems, but you expect that.


----------



## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> For sure it's for the good of fellow travellers
> 
> Even Sydney Airport now offer 15 minutes free pick up. Tesla, being more efficient, is offering 5 mins before they charge some $30 per hour, counting by the minute - to be fair.
> 
> ...



Also one other thing, you don't get charged an idle fee if the charging station is less than 50% full, so if there are 8 charging bays, and only 3 are taken, you are ok leaving your car a bit longer, but if the charging station is busy, you get notified that you have 5 mins to move your car.

It makes sense, you would park your car at a petrol bowser when the service station is busy.

Also this is only for super chargers, that are designed for travellers wanting to quickly charge and get back on the road, the slower destination charges at work places, hotels, shopping centres etc etc aren't charged the fee, they are designed to charge your car slowly as you park there over night or for a work day.


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## luutzu (19 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Also one other thing, you don't get charged an idle fee if the charging station is less than 50% full, so if there are 8 charging bays, and only 3 are taken, you are ok leaving your car a bit longer, but if the charging station is busy, you get notified that you have 5 mins to move your car.
> 
> It makes sense, you would park your car at a petrol bowser when the service station is busy.
> 
> Also this is only for super chargers, that are designed for travellers wanting to quickly charge and get back on the road, the slower destination charges at work places, hotels, shopping centres etc etc aren't charged the fee, they are designed to charge your car slowly as you park there over night or for a work day.




It's the half empty rule that gets your money.

See, if they were to charge you after 5min no matter what, then chances are Teslians will keep a close eye out on the charging status. But allow the half-empty and it's alright rule, people will more likely to "risk it". They'd roll the dice and the house always win.

Say I pulled up to charge and I'm the only one at the bay. I'd figured that the chances of other rich and awesome Tesla owner filling up more than half the bay are very low. So I'd browse the aisles at Woolies, check out a few useless shops... come back and pow! Elon Musk sent a few Tesla dealers to charge at the other bays and I'd be paying for it


----------



## Macquack (19 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Did you watch that video till the end and listen to what he said? 11 months ironing out issues with the service agents on his new Tesla car. It's like not made up.



That guy is just an old woman. Not one issue of any real substance in his complaints. If all new car owners were as painstakingly difficult as that guy, all car manufacturers would go broke.


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## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> It's the half empty rule that gets your money.
> 
> See, if they were to charge you after 5min no matter what, then chances are Teslians will keep a close eye out on the charging status. But allow the half-empty and it's alright rule, people will more likely to "risk it". They'd roll the dice and the house always win.
> 
> Say I pulled up to charge and I'm the only one at the bay. I'd figured that the chances of other rich and awesome Tesla owner filling up more than half the bay are very low. So I'd browse the aisles at Woolies, check out a few useless shops... come back and pow! Elon Musk sent a few Tesla dealers to charge at the other bays and I'd be paying for it



As I said you get notified by you app, if charges will apply and when your car reaches enough car to get to your destination,

For example, if you only need 24% charge to make it the last 80kms home, your app will notify that you now have enough charge, you would have to leave it charging another 30mins after you had enough charge, then you get a warning etc

Basically it's just trying to say "don't be a d##k and park you car at the petrol bowser" 

To be honest I wish they had that rule at the petrol station to prevent people doing a light grocery shop at Bp while their car is blocking the bowser.


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## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Did you watch that video till the end and listen to what he said? 11 months ironing out issues with the service agents on his new Tesla car. It's like not made up.




Check out this guy.

150,000 miles (240,000kms) and the only maintenance has been 4 sets of tyres.

He smashes his car driving shuttle runs between Las Vegas and La daily (the tesla taxi), charging multiple full cycle fast charges per day (which is not the ideal way to charge)

But even with all those charge cycles, at  super charge rates he has only lost 6% of battery life.

His business is based around providing low cost transport long distances because his car came with free super charging for life.


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## luutzu (19 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> As I said you get notified by you app, if charges will apply and when your car reaches enough car to get to your destination,
> 
> For example, if you only need 24% charge to make it the last 80kms home, your app will notify that you now have enough charge, you would have to leave it charging another 30mins after you had enough charge, then you get a warning etc
> 
> ...




Teslsa is saying "don't be a D##k" but its design is saying "please be a d##k so we charge your car and recharge our revenue stream at the same time" 

If I need to do shopping at a pump station, I would drive my car to its parking space. When the line's long I'd even do that when I don't need to do any shopping. See, no need to charge people to make them considerate. 

Speaking of grocery shopping... there's a gas station nearby my place where the enterprising operator also sells fruits and vege in the open, right next to the pumps. That's gotta be breaking some health code.


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## Value Collector (19 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Teslsa is saying "don't be a D##k" but its design is saying "please be a d##k so we charge your car and recharge our revenue stream at the same time"
> 
> If I need to do shopping at a pump station, I would drive my car to its parking space. When the line's long I'd even do that when I don't need to do any shopping. See, no need to charge people to make them considerate.
> 
> Speaking of grocery shopping... there's a gas station nearby my place where the enterprising operator also sells fruits and vege in the open, right next to the pumps. That's gotta be breaking some health code.




So you have nothing to worry about then, it's only inconsiderate people that need worry. 

Basically it's not a parking place, the fees need to Be steep, to make an impact, if they charged $5 an hour, people would treat it like parking.


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## luutzu (20 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So you have nothing to worry about then, it's only inconsiderate people that need worry.
> 
> Basically it's not a parking place, the fees need to Be steep, to make an impact, if they charged $5 an hour, people would treat it like parking.




$5 an hour is pretty steep you know 

But yea, I prefer my cars mostly analogue. A real man's push buttons, with ticking dials, real metal gear knobs that burns the gears config into your palm after an hour in the Aussie sun. Though I'd buy one for the mrs and me brothers if ever i win the jackpot. Everyone need their iPhones. 

Speaking of which, how has these Tesla handle the extreme weather? I mean, leaving your phone in the sun pretty much fries it. Leaving an all-electronic car with super computers, sensors, cameras... and glass rooftops on most models. Can't be good after a few years.


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## Value Collector (20 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> $5 an hour is pretty steep you know




My local Westfields charges $20 for an hour if you stay passed the allotted free parking time. I think Tesla just wants it to be in everyones mind that staying after your car has done charging is not an option.




> Speaking of which, how has these Tesla handle the extreme weather? I mean, leaving your phone in the sun pretty much fries it. Leaving an all-electronic car with super computers, sensors, cameras... and glass rooftops on most models. Can't be good after a few years.




I can't see it being much different to any newer model car.


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## Value Collector (20 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with you completely, however it is a bit of a hen or egg story, mass infrastructure won't be rolled out until there is a demand.




Check out Tesla's latest charging station.

40 Charging bays,

watch at 1.50 minutes mark of this video.


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## SirRumpole (20 November 2017)

40 stalls ? I thought EV's didn't stall.


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## luutzu (20 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> My local Westfields charges $20 for an hour if you stay passed the allotted free parking time. I think Tesla just wants it to be in everyones mind that staying after your car has done charging is not an option.
> 
> I can't see it being much different to any newer model car.




Westfields give you 3 hours. That's a bit more time to run down and get out than 5 minutes.

Don't know much about Tesla, but it seem that they might be trying to do a gaming console model where they lose money on the car itself but grab back the cash on software, parts and repairs.

Or the Apple model where they sleek up the hardware, overpriced the shiny plastics and also profit from the ego-system.

For small item toys like phones and tablets it might work, for bigger items like PC, laptops or a family car... people want some fancy bits but mainly focus on the price, operating costs. That's why Windows beat the crap out of the Macs.


----------



## Value Collector (20 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Westfields give you 3 hours. That's a bit more time to run down and get out than 5 minutes.
> 
> .




And Tesla give you as long as it takes to charge your car, you can even slow that rate down if you want to game the system, Tesla don't want you using there spot longer than it takes to use the charging service, and Westfields don't want you using there spot longer than it takes to do your shopping, both fees are penalties trying to stop you parking there to long.


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## Value Collector (20 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> 40 stalls ? I thought EV's didn't stall.



Also, I just wanted to point out that the roof over those charging bays are covered in solar panels, So a decent chunk of the power being used to will be from direct solar power, not to mention power drawn from the grid also contains a growing amount of renewable, so that answers part of your concern about whether we are just replacing oil for coal.


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## DaveDaGr8 (20 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Also, I just wanted to point out that the roof over those charging bays are covered in solar panels, So a decent chunk of the power being used to will be from direct solar power, not to mention power drawn from the grid also contains a growing amount of renewable, so that answers part of your concern about whether we are just replacing oil for coal.




Just some math, not trying to start an argument.

IF a charging bay were covered in solar panels, 30M * 30M which is 900 m2, the rough size of a service station. Current PV gets around 150W per m2 so that works out at around 135 KW.

In victoria we have an average daily insolar value of 4KWH. SO each day a charging station will put in 540 KWH of energy, although this is seasonal.

The P100D has a 100KWH storage capacity, so a charging bay such as this will charge on average a *total of 5.4 cars*. If you only half charged them, you'll still only get 11 cars charged per day on average. More in summer, less in winter.

Making a *100M * 100M charging bay still only charge around 110 cars* @ 1/2 charge. 

Covering 1km * 1km of a shopping centre in solar panels will net around 150 MW  / 600,000 KWH / day of energy, enough for 12,000 cars per day ( @ 50KWH). This is what ALL councils should be striving to plan for. However, economically 1,000,000 m2 of solar panels @ $100/m2 will cost $100,000,000 ( very conservative ). Double that for installation costs and infrastructure.

The bottom line is that it will cost around $16,666 per car times cars charged a day just to supply and install the panels and infrastructure, more if you need land.

This is the scale of the challenge. I'm all for it if it can help avert us wiping ourselves off the planet. I am eagerly awaiting the model 3 and i have loaded my house with panels.


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## Value Collector (20 November 2017)

DaveDaGr8 said:


> Just some math, not trying to start an argument.
> 
> IF a charging bay were covered in solar panels, 30M * 30M which is 900 m2, the rough size of a service station. Current PV gets around 150W per m2 so that works out at around 135 KW.




I am pretty sure the site in the video has more than 30M*30M, but I am not claiming that its totally powered by solar. Each canopy seems to be about 24*9 (could be bigger if they overhang the car spaces) and there are 5 canopies (three across the front and 2 at the side).

I am just pointing out that Electric cars in general are not all Coal powered, more and more they are being powered by renewables.

It's a constant theme among detractors to say things like, "Well you are just switching from Oil to Coal" and while this is partly true in a country like Australia, it's not a switch from 100% Oil to 100% Coal.

Especially in places like where this Tesla charging station is, Not only is some of the power directly from solar, a lot of the imported power is coming from renewables and nuclear.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Speaking of which, how has these Tesla handle the extreme weather? I mean, leaving your phone in the sun pretty much fries it. Leaving an all-electronic car with super computers, sensors, cameras... and glass rooftops on most models. Can't be good after a few years.




Pretty much every modern vehicle has that sort of stuff so the same issues apply to petrol or diesel engines (with the added problem of the engine itself producing a lot of heat).


----------



## Gringotts Bank (20 November 2017)

Everything this guy does is maximally disruptive.  He takes enormous leaps ahead whilst others take steps.  This truck is 50 years ahead of its time.  The sheer number of highly significant tech breakthroughs in a single vehicle is astonishing.


----------



## fiftyeight (20 November 2017)

If this is being achieved now, who knows where this will end up in a few generations????? Hopefully the tech will keep up to stop too many wrapped around trees


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## basilio (20 November 2017)

That was a nice bit of maths Dave. Great contribution. 
Clearly the solar panels on top of the canopy will contribute a drop in the ocean of what will be required for large scale use of electric cars.

The best way of course is overnight charging because, in fact,  current coal fired power stations need to operate 24/7 anyway so one might as well use the juice.

On the larger scale however if/when we substantially move to electric cars we will need to massively increase our electricity production. In that context using every sq metre of built infrastructure to help do that will be invaluable.

Perhaps by 2020 that will be achievable at less than current costs of coal fired electricity.  Maybe...
http://www.nexttechstock.com/dye-transform-mini-tesla-solar/


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## Wysiwyg (20 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Don't know much about Tesla, but it seem that they might be trying to do a gaming console model where they lose money on the car itself but grab back the cash on software, parts and repairs.
> 
> *Or the Apple model where they sleek up the hardware, overpriced the shiny plastics and also profit from the ego-system*.



A lot of investment funds getting thrown at this venture. It is a business and businesses need to make a profit but that is several years away at current cash burn rates. It is the start of the transition to electric cars so there is a lot to be revealed in the years ahead. Exciting times.


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## Wysiwyg (20 November 2017)

fiftyeight said:


> Hopefully the tech will keep up to stop too many wrapped around trees



Isn't the Roadster autonomous driving?


----------



## luutzu (20 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Isn't the Roadster autonomous driving?




For $US200K I'd stick to a Ferrari or a couple of old Mustangs. 

I like my sports car to go vroom.   None of these click and tap tap on a monitor with autonomous driver assist business. Though I'd drive the wife's Tesla's for the normal family duty though.


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## luutzu (20 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> A lot of investment funds getting thrown at this venture. It is a business and businesses need to make a profit but that is several years away at current cash burn rates. It is the start of the transition to electric cars so there is a lot to be revealed in the years ahead. Exciting times.




Yeah, exciting that's for sure.

There's a whole bunch of EV in the works with scheduled released over the next couple of years. Just in time for an excuse to replace the current family clunker. 

At current burn rate of some $4B a year, their new mass market (cheaper) EV better get pumped out real quick before other more experienced car manufacturers takes their lunch.


----------



## luutzu (20 November 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> Pretty much every modern vehicle has that sort of stuff so the same issues apply to petrol or diesel engines (with the added problem of the engine itself producing a lot of heat).




Hope so. Teslas have a massive screen and plenty of sensors and other cool gadgets. There's a reason you don't put your PC and electronics in direct sunlight.


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## luutzu (20 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> And Tesla give you as long as it takes to charge your car, you can even slow that rate down if you want to game the system, Tesla don't want you using there spot longer than it takes to use the charging service, and Westfields don't want you using there spot longer than it takes to do your shopping, both fees are penalties trying to stop you parking there to long.




I guess $0.45 a minute is more effective than dirty looks and tut tut 

But come one man, you got to admit it's a nice and cheap way of making more money from their customers too. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.


----------



## Value Collector (21 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> I guess $0.45 a minute is more effective than dirty looks and tut tut
> 
> But come one man, you got to admit it's a nice and cheap way of making more money from their customers too. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.



I don't think making money on it is their goal, and I don't think it will actually generate revenue, people won't leave their cars there.


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## Value Collector (21 November 2017)

Moved this here from the Elon thread.



> Tesla should be putting 1000km range batteries in their mass production vehicles. .




For 99% of people, a 1000Km range battery would add significant cost for no benefit.

not many people regularly drive that distance with out stopping to stretch the legs, use the toilet and have some lunch. So having a smaller eg cheaper and lighter battery with say a 500 km range is more practical, and on the day you do that 1000km road trip you just charge up during you break.

on road trips, by the time I have gone to the toilet myself, given my dog a toilet break and some water, bought some lunch etc, I would have easily given the car 25 - 30 mins charge, and that allows about 250 kms of driving.

 if I started with 480kms of range, and added 250 after my first break, I am already at 730 km's range, and by then probably ready for another break, which would push me to near the 1000km range.

So charging during your natural drive/rest cycle, means you don't need a super high capacity battery, even for road trips.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> For 99% of people, a 1000Km range battery *would add significant cost for no benefit.*




So do 300kmh supercars.


----------



## luutzu (21 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So do 300kmh supercars.




What, we don't all go from 0 to 100km in 10 seconds each time we take our cars out? 

Sydney siders will be lucky to go from 0 to 30km in an hour during most traffic hours.


----------



## luutzu (21 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I don't think making money on it is their goal, and I don't think it will actually generate revenue, people won't leave their cars there.




Wanna put your money on it? $5 says you'll pay at least $100 in your first year from being too slow back to the SuperCharger.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 November 2017)

M


Value Collector said:


> on road trips, by the time I have gone to the toilet myself, given my dog a toilet break and some water, bought some lunch etc, I would have easily given the car 25 - 30 mins charge, and that allows about 250 kms of driving.



Much the same here except that I’d never choose a service station as the place for such a break unless there’s absolutely no alternative.

Any sort of roadside park, rest area etc is far more pleasant than a servo. Trouble is that most have no power....

Fixable certainly but another change that’s needed.


----------



## Value Collector (21 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> So do 300kmh supercars.



Thats why 99% of people won't buy them, only a few thousand of the roadster will be built, its a very niche market, and more about creating Buzz, and to demonstrate the concept that electric cars can have the highest performance.


----------



## Value Collector (21 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Wanna put your money on it? $5 says you'll pay at least $100 in your first year from being too slow back to the SuperCharger.




I doubt I would even super charge 20 times a year and so even if I was late every time it wouldn't be $100, So I will take that bet, wanna put a bottle of rum on it?

I will probably super charge 10 - 15 times a year Max, and that is only if I did an usually high number of road trips.


----------



## Value Collector (21 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I doubt I would even super charge 20 times a year and so even if I was late every time it wouldn't be $100, So I will take that bet, wanna put a bottle of rum on it?





Smurf1976 said:


> M
> 
> Much the same here except that I’d never choose a service station as the place for such a break unless there’s absolutely no alternative.
> 
> ...




Thats one of the interesting things with the Tesla Super chargers, they are popping up in areas that aren't your normal Servo, eg The Big banana, The Macadamia Castle, Wineries, etc.

What did you think of the Kettleman Super charger in the video below, More like an Air port lounge than a servo, not to mention take away restaurants within walking distance.



They are definitely trying different things to see what works best.


----------



## Value Collector (21 November 2017)

Here are just a couple of examples of the spread of the Tesla super charger network, and how they are generally in nice places you wouldn't mind stopping for a break.

On your way to the snow, this one is next to a nice park, cafe and Coles. 


Macadamia Castle, on the Sydney to Brisbane run



Port Macquarie, at a winery, seems like a nice place.



Ballarat, 



*Gundagai, NSW Supercharger Review*
**


----------



## Junior (21 November 2017)

Once a few other major car manufacturers release EVs, charging stations will pop up all over the place, pretty quickly in my opinion.

If Tesla manage to properly ramp up their production as planned (before they go broke), they will need to rapidly expand the super-charger network as they start to really build up numbers on the roads.


----------



## Gringotts Bank (21 November 2017)

Junior said:


> Once a few other major car manufacturers release EVs, charging stations will pop up all over the place, pretty quickly in my opinion.
> 
> If Tesla manage to properly ramp up their production as planned (before they go broke), they will need to rapidly expand the super-charger network as they start to really build up numbers on the roads.




TESLA/Musk seems to get along well with the Chinese.  If there's any concerns around capital, they'll make sure he survives.... imho.


----------



## Tisme (21 November 2017)




----------



## Tisme (21 November 2017)

Electric Plane


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## basilio (21 November 2017)

I suggest that the various sites chosen as supercharger sites would have deals with Tesla. It is bringing in traffic that has to hang around for at least 30 minutes . The people will have money. There will be kudos in being an early adopter.

I wonder if these supercharger can be used on other electric cars? Or perhaps extra charge points can be arranged. Would be a shame if only Teslas electric cars can use the facility.

For anyone interested there is a more extensive discussion on thje Tesla supercharger sites on Whirlpool.
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2458533&p=16


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## sptrawler (21 November 2017)

basilio said:


> The best way of course is overnight charging because, in fact,  current coal fired power stations need to operate 24/7 anyway so one might as well use the juice.




Where did you come up with that fact, as long as the turbine is cooled to a pre determined level, a coal fired unit can be taken off and put back on in time for the morning load.


----------



## basilio (21 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Where did you come up with that fact, as long as the turbine is cooled to a pre determined level, a coal fired unit can be taken off and put back on in time for the morning load.




That statement certainly surprises me.  My understanding is by and large coal fired power stations operate as base load power providers on a  24/7 basis with allowances for  maintenance.

 Smurf do you have any comments on this ?


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2017)

basilio said:


> That statement certainly surprises me.  My understanding is by and large coal fired power stations operate as base load power providers on a  24/7 basis with allowances for  maintenance.
> 
> Smurf do you have any comments on this ?




Well I may have been dreaming, but I'm sure I was taking coal fired units off the grid, and putting them back on in the morning for 25 years.
But hey, I'll defer to your obvious knowledge of everything regarding power generation, into an interconnected grid.
To me, it just shows how little knowledge, people who make sweeping awe inspiring comments have.
It actually depends on the fuel and dispatch priority of the units available, not whether it burns coal, gas or oil.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 November 2017)

basilio said:


> Smurf do you have any comments on this ?



As a generation technology coal is high capital cost but low (in some cases _extremely _low - you'd be amazed how cheap the Latrobe Valley brown coal stations are to operate) running cost. There's also a cost, for auxiliary fuel (usually oil or gas) to start up as well as additional wear and tear on the plant.

From a purely technical perspective stopping and starting a plant using high grade coal isn't overly difficult. It does cost $ however and that aspect combined with the low running cost but high capital cost means that coal is best suited for economic reasons to continuous operation.

For a plant using low grade coal with a high water content, and Latrobe Valley coal is up to 70% water (so it's water with some coal rather than coal with some water) there are some technical issues with starting up quickly. It's not impossible to do it but in practice not done unless under emergency conditions.

So if we put the CO2 issue to one side and focus purely on the traditional economic aspects then it makes sense to build coal to the extent that we need some form of generation to run constantly. In that role it's cheaper than gas or oil easily. And once it's built it makes sense to run coal plant in preference to oil or gas since it's cheaper to operate.

So coal does have the ability to generate at low marginal cost once it's built. Total cost is higher obviously but for a plant that's already there it doesn't cost much to just put more coal in and run it a bit harder when it would otherwise be under-utilised (eg overnight).

From a total cost perspective it also makes sense to flatten out the load so as to be able to meet as much of the total demand from low cost (coal) plant as possible and to minimise the use of oil and gas.

So it's an economic issue more than a technical one where black coal is concerned.

For other technologies:

Gas or oil - capable of running constantly if needed but the marginal cost of operation is high (but capital costs are lower than with coal). Hence such plant is normally built to meet that part of the load which is intermittent in nature (eg driven by weather or the normal daily cycle of human activity).

Hydro - costs a fortune to build but it's incredibly cheap to run. Hydro plant is capable of changing output incredibly fast, seconds, but in the Australian context in most cases the water resource is quite limited such that the best use (economically) is to install a lot of generating capacity using the relatively limited water resource and use it for peak loads. The generators aren't expensive, it's the dam and civil works that costs serious $, so that's the most economic way to use it. There are some exceptions in Tas where we do have true base load hydro stations - Butlers Gorge, Tarraleah and Wayatinah in particular plus a number of others which go to low load overnight but never to zero (unless due to maintenance) due to the need to keep the water moving - Meadowbank is the most obvious example (Hobart draws 60% of its water supply from Meadowbank's discharge so it can't stop) with Cluny and Repulse also not normally going to zero (but they do go to low output routinely).

How cheap? That's generally confidential information in the context of the competitive National Electricity Market but it was publicly disclosed a few years ago that Hydro Tas has marginal costs of running versus not running of around 0.2 cents per kilowatt hour and it's no secret that the brown coal plants in Vic are similar. That was a few years ago, costs are a bit higher now due to inflation, but it's still incredibly low.

For black coal it depends on the fuel price but we're talking 1.5 - 3.0 cents / kWh for most Australian plants to run versus not run.

For gas it varies but 4 - 10 cents / kWh covers most of them.

Note that those are marginal costs of running versus not running and that total costs are far higher. Cost to build in the first place, cost to pay staff and so on don't change just because the plant is or isn't running (well, not unless you close it outright and lay off the the staff etc).

Also note that those are short term costs which don't include the cost of an eventual refurbishment although that's not directly proportional to output. A plant that's run 20% of the time won't last 4 times as long as one that's run 80% of the time indeed in some cases there would be virtually no difference. Longer running hours are balanced out by having fewer stops and starts causing wear.

There's also efficiency to throw into the mix. Gas turbines in particular suffer huge efficiency losses at low output, at very low output their efficiency is truly shocking, but all plant has an optimum operating point. For coal or gas that's generally somewhere near maximum capacity. For hydro it varies with the technology of a particular plant but for Gordon PS (Tas) it's optimum is about 77% of capacity. Running at 100% loses a few % of efficiency but go down to 10% and it's a pretty big loss (hence why Hydro Tas is currently looking at adding a 4th machine, smaller than the rest, at Gordon specifically to enable better efficiency at low output).

Gas turbines also suffer efficiency losses as the temperature increases. The colder the better.

Then there's the issue of "use it or lose it" generation such as wind, solar and any hydro scheme where the dam is full (which does happen with the smaller ones).

Put all that together and there's a definite advantage in shifting electrical load away from the peaks if possible and in the case of electric vehicles charging them overnight. Helps keep efficiency up, maximises the use of cost or "use it or lose it" generation and doesn't add much to the need to run high cost plant such as oil or gas.

Added to all that there's the original design of the plant itself. What was it built to do? A coal plant can certainly be built to optimise performance for peak load use if that's the intent just as a gas-fired plant can be built to run base load if that's how it's planned to be operated.

Most of the NSW coal-fired plants are pretty good at following load and getting down to low outputs. Getting down to one third of capacity they do easily. In contrast the Vic brown coal plants weren't built with that intention - anything below about 55% of capacity isn't so easy (not impossible but some issues arise).

Newport (Vic) and Torrens Island (SA) both use steam turbines with gas-fired boilers (not gas turbines) but were built to be flexible. Regular starts and stops and operating anywhere from 20% to 100% of capacity they do pretty easily.

Then there's things like Tamar Valley CCGT (Tas), a gas-fired plant built specifically for base load. It operates intermittently as such but wouldn't normally drop below two thirds of capacity when running and is typically stopped and started a few times a year at most. The plus side of that inflexibility is that it's the most efficient plant in the National Electricity Market.

 In short - yes coal can stop and start but for economic reasons that's not an ideal situation. Doable but if we can use the power for a worthwhile purpose, instead of drawing that power when demand is high, then it makes massive sense to do so.


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> From a purely technical perspective stopping and starting a plant using high grade coal isn't overly difficult. It does cost $ however and that aspect combined with the low running cost but high capital cost means that coal is best suited for economic reasons to continuous operation.
> .




It depends what you are paying for the fuel, to run alternative plant.
Or if you have a take or pay contract.lol
Or if the other generators, don't seem to be flexible.
Or if you have to come off because, the private can't.


----------



## luutzu (21 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I doubt I would even super charge 20 times a year and so even if I was late every time it wouldn't be $100, So I will take that bet, wanna put a bottle of rum on it?
> 
> I will probably super charge 10 - 15 times a year Max, and that is only if I did an usually high number of road trips.




Alright. Deal. Five bucks and the best rum LiquorLand or Woolies can provide.

So in its first year, if your car incurred $100 or more from overstaying at any Tesla charge station, I win ya.


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2017)

Junior said:


> Once a few other major car manufacturers release EVs, charging stations will pop up all over the place, pretty quickly in my opinion.
> 
> If Tesla manage to properly ramp up their production as planned (before they go broke), they will need to rapidly expand the super-charger network as they start to really build up numbers on the roads.




Hope you're not selling that to your clients, Junior. LOL


----------



## basilio (22 November 2017)

Great analysis Smurf.  On memory I believe you probably gave a similar analaysis previously but it is always invaluable to refresh .

And it does make sense to use surplus base load coal power to charge electric vehicles overnight.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 November 2017)

You have done it again Smurf, thanks for taking the time.

Maybe some of the water resource drawbacks of hydro could be overcome by coastal plants using seawater ? The upper reservoir would still have to be built, but the lower one is already there. Pros and cons ?


----------



## Junior (22 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Hope you're not selling that to your clients, Junior. LOL




Tesla bonds?  No chance.


----------



## Value Collector (22 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Alright. Deal. Five bucks and the best rum LiquorLand or Woolies can provide.
> 
> So in its first year, if your car incurred $100 or more from overstaying at any Tesla charge station, I win ya.



I am not a fancy guy, just get me a bottle go bundy, lol.


----------



## luutzu (22 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am not a fancy guy, just get me a bottle go bundy, lol.




Wouldn't be laughing so loud once you pay Tesla those idle fees and have to send me a bottle with $5 attached.


----------



## Value Collector (22 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Wouldn't be laughing so loud once you pay Tesla those idle fees and have to send me a bottle with $5 attached.




Wait and see, I am pretty confident.


----------



## luutzu (22 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Wait and see, I am pretty confident.


----------



## sptrawler (22 November 2017)

If we are going to go to battery operated, and I have to have one, throw some lithium into this idea. LOL

http://www.motofire.com/2017/10/new...ith-three-wheels-and-will-be-amazing-to-ride/

Remove the ICE engine, fit an electric and batteries, give it a range of 400 - 500klm, I'm onboard. Yeh


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 November 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> You have done it again Smurf, thanks for taking the time.
> 
> Maybe some of the water resource drawbacks of hydro could be overcome by coastal plants using seawater ? The upper reservoir would still have to be built, but the lower one is already there. Pros and cons ?



I'll respond in the energy thread and leave this one to cars.


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2017)

Tesla's Model 3 (the cheaper one), beating a Volvo S60 in saftey test.


----------



## Wysiwyg (23 November 2017)

I saw the rear of a Tesla vehicle on a youtube video relatively unscathed after a rear end hit while the car doing the hit was written off. The commentator thought this was good for the Tesla vehicle. Wrong. 
Crumple zones are designed into vehicles to absorb the impact and "control deformation". Otherwise the occupant will return the force of impact equally. Not good for the occupant. Also IIHS had an interesting view.



> The IIHS said that, during the test, the Model S’s seat belt did not prevent the driver’s head from hitting the steering wheel hard through the deployed air bag.
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...l-s-crash-test-findings-iihs-2017-7?r=US&IR=T


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> I saw the rear of a Tesla vehicle on a youtube video relatively unscathed after a rear end hit while the car doing the hit was written off. The commentator thought this was good for the Tesla vehicle. Wrong.
> Crumple zones are designed into vehicles to absorb the impact and "control deformation". Otherwise the occupant will return the force of impact equally. Not good for the occupant. Also IIHS had an interesting view.




Tesla understands crumple zones, everyone in the auto industry does, but you don't want the car to crumple onto the passengers as the Volvo S60 did.

In fact, Tesla has the best crumple zones, because they don't have an engine in the front, the entire front of the vehicle is crumple space, but they have made sure the passenger compartment doesn't crumple.


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2017)

Convincing Your wife to let you buy an electric car.


----------



## Wysiwyg (24 November 2017)

One would think EV adoption would require a serious reduction in battery replacement costs and an extension of replacement time. 15k every 10 years is ridiculous.  


> Tesla Australia has never confirmed how much it will cost to replace a degrading battery pack. However, Tesla's global website estimates *replacing a* Model S 85's *battery* to be $US12,000 (*$AU15,799*). The company is banking on the cost depreciating within eight years, which is when the warranty provided for the batteries expires.


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> One would think EV adoption would require a serious reduction in battery replacement costs and an extension of replacement time. 15k every 10 years is ridiculous.



They battery will out live the car.

Do you take into consideration the replacement cost of a car engine when looking at buying a car? if not why not? is it because the cars engine normally lasts longer than the car? if so you can look at a battery the same.


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2017)

Tesla Batteries will basically last forever, (as far as your car is concerned)


----------



## Wysiwyg (25 November 2017)

Tesla banking on future increased battery efficiencies with their latest claims. 
*Tesla’s Newest Promises Break the Laws of Batteries*
*https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-newest-promises-break-the-laws-of-batteries*


*

*
*

*


----------



## orr (25 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Tesla banking on future increased battery efficiencies with their latest claims.
> *Tesla’s Newest Promises Break the Laws of Batteries*
> *https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-newest-promises-break-the-laws-of-batteries*
> 
> ...



This is where the rubber hits the road; 
I'll never be in the head of the young Rockefeller  back in 1850 odd, pre the era of the internal combustion engine by a few  decades and at a time where there was not much use for the oil oozing out of the ground except for kero for lamps and grease for wagon wheels. But i'll hazzad the guess it was his guess at energy density and at low cost plus societal need married to technological capacity for innovation( fundamental optimism) were drivers.
Your bog ordanry back block farrier of the 1870s couldn't possibly have seen the transportation future hurtling toward them then. That future  was  to constrain their skills to not much more than an historical novelty (note*... I have great respect for the craftsmanship of those who wish to carry forward skills that would otherwise be lost due to industrial triumphalism. For those with interest please see ;

)
 But  the modern day metaphorical equivalents are just as blind. 
Nobody here ( I hope) is going to suggest to their children or grand children to invest their superannuation in colonial gunsmithing associated manufacture as a path to an economic future, the same way as they should be laughing at clowns tossing up lumps of coal as baubles of progress in Australia's 2017 parliament.  
The fundamental economic mathematic$ regard the future of electric motivated transportation are unavoidably compelling. 
The financial opportunities; manifold ...??? ... well ...Rockfellers descendants, amongst others,  are working their way to monetise exactly this.


----------



## Wyatt (25 November 2017)

Going to be interesting how this all plays out, but it seems very compelling


----------



## Value Collector (26 November 2017)

orr said:


> This is where the rubber hits the road;
> I'll never be in the head of the young Rockefeller  back in 1850 odd, pre the era of the internal combustion engine by a few  decades and at a time where there was not much use for the oil oozing out of the ground except for kero for lamps and grease for wagon wheels. But i'll hazzad the guess it was his guess at energy density and at low cost plus societal need married to technological capacity for innovation( fundamental optimism) were drivers.
> Your bog ordanry back block farrier of the 1870s couldn't possibly have seen the transportation future hurtling toward them then. That future  was  to constrain their skills to not much more than an historical novelty (note*... I have great respect for the craftsmanship of those who wish to carry forward skills that would otherwise be lost due to industrial triumphalism. For those with interest please see ;
> 
> ...





Rockefeller nearly went broke due to the electric grid and light bulbs killing demand for kerosene.

But the combustion engine car saved him.

Now the electric grid looked to be under threat from solar and batteries.

But the grid will be saved by the electric car.

Its taken over 100 years, but the electric boys are finalling taking on Rockefeller in the car game.


----------



## luutzu (26 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Convincing Your wife to let you buy an electric car.





Maths, logic, sweat talks... OR

Or do what a wiser man I know advises and just buy one. Come home with it to "surprise" her.

She gets upset, either pack the kids off to her parents or give you the silent treatment for a couple of weeks.

Imagine being left alone with your new toy for two straight weeks. Bloody. Paid for itself.


----------



## luutzu (26 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Tesla banking on future increased battery efficiencies with their latest claims.
> *Tesla’s Newest Promises Break the Laws of Batteries*
> *https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-newest-promises-break-the-laws-of-batteries*
> 
> ...




It's going to be one of those "i'll believe it when I see it" with Tesla.

The problem I see with some of their claims is that they seem to quote figures during test/isolated environment - as you would if you got any sense in you.

Does the nice figures work out similar or a whole lot worst in real operating condition. 

I have seen videos where Tesla owners says the miles charge shown aren't accurate in urban/normal driving condition. The stop/start... basically it's freeway mileage when you're driving in traffic jam.

Would the battery charge and such still be true when the truck get off the freeway and into town and busy cities with countless traffic lights etc.


----------



## ghotib (28 November 2017)

Speaking of chargers popping up...



> The NRMA has today _<20 October 2017>_ announced that it will establish Australia’s largest electric vehicle fast-charging network, suitable for a range of electric vehicles and free for NRMA Members.
> 
> More than 95 per cent of NRMA Member road trips will be covered by the network. The $10 million investment will deliver at least 40 chargers, more than double the size of the current network of chargers in NSW and the ACT.
> 
> The network will unlock Australia for electric vehicles, enabling stress-free journeys whether motorists are doing the daily city commute, or visiting beaches on the South Coast, weekend getaways to our world-class wine regions or snow trips to the mountains.



https://www.mynrma.com.au/community/news-and-media-centre/nrma-to-build-ev-fast-charging-network

The article concludes with an invitation to _"potential partners such as local councils and community groups to express their interest in working with the NRMA to bring a charger to their local area." _

It doesn't say how they got to an average $250k for a charger, but that's got to be a lot less than the average cost of servo. Running costs would be much lower than any servo and the charger owner has a choice of suppliers, including generating their own. Looks to me like the business of fueling vehicles is about to lose its moat. 
_
_


----------



## Junior (28 November 2017)

ghotib said:


> Speaking of chargers popping up...
> 
> 
> https://www.mynrma.com.au/community/news-and-media-centre/nrma-to-build-ev-fast-charging-network
> ...




Surely existing service stations will start installing chargers?  They already have most of the infrastructure required, i.e. entry/exit ramps, land, food/beverages, bathrooms etc. etc. and furthermore will not want to lose traffic once EVs become more prevalent.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2017)

Junior said:


> Surely existing service stations will start installing chargers?  They already have most of the infrastructure required, i.e. entry/exit ramps, land, food/beverages, bathrooms etc. etc. and furthermore will not want to lose traffic once EVs become more prevalent.




I reckon coles and woolies will want in on the game, they have been dabbling in petrol for years, How easy would it be to convert some parking spaces to charging stations, attract customers with discounted charging while they do their shopping.

As I said earlier, fuel stations are going to find it hard to scratch out an existence, because.

1, Most charging will be done at home.

2, Non traditional areas will find it easy to compete, eg shopping centres, other carparks, please of employment etc.

3, Non traditional suppliers can add "free charging" to existing services, eg NRMA insurance polices, Valet Parking, Car washing, restaurant meals, hotel stays. etc etc

The only petrol stations that I see thriving are the locations along road trip routes that are convenient or have some existing attractions like popular food locations or rest areas.

But even then non traditional competition can spring up easily, like Tesla's superchargers that are appearing at areas away from your regular service stations, at places like the big banana, cafes, wineries, etc etc.

Even local councils along the major highways could add chargers to the existing rest stops, to help fund the maintenance of the rest stops.


----------



## Wysiwyg (28 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I
> 
> As I said earlier, fuel stations are going to find it hard to scratch out an existence, because.
> 
> 1, Most charging will be done at home.



Do you know if all plugs/sockets for charging will be the same for all vehicle manufacturers as I can see issues with multiple plug/socket shapes if every car maker has a unique design. If designs are unique, multiple adaptors will be needed.


----------



## Boggo (28 November 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Do you know if all plugs/sockets for charging will be the same for all vehicle manufacturers as I can see issues with multiple plug/socket shapes if every car maker has a unique design. If designs are unique, multiple adaptors will be needed.




Just take a (petrol) generator everywhere


----------



## Macquack (28 November 2017)

Boggo said:


> Just take a (petrol) generator everywhere
> 
> View attachment 84956



That reminds me of the fact that NASCAR (National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing) only changed to fuel injection in 2012. It is obvious that NASCAR is a dinosaur organisation with ulterior motivations.


----------



## Wysiwyg (28 November 2017)

Boggo said:


> Just take a (petrol) generator everywhere



Yes a flat battery takes on a whole new meaning.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2017)

Tesla have their own, but some of the other manufacturers are working to standardize things, but you can charge your Tesla anywhere, you just need an adaptor which actually comes with the car.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2017)

Boggo said:


> Just take a (petrol) generator everywhere
> 
> View attachment 84956




That's great Boggo, that's probably a 2kva generator, it would take about 2 days to charge a Tesla.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla have their own, but some of the other manufacturers are working to standardize things, but you can charge your Tesla anywhere, you just need an adaptor which actually comes with the car.




Sorry VC, couldn't help myself.lol


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Sorry VC, couldn't help myself.lol



That's the benefit of electric, multi sources of fuel, some of which you can generate yourself, lol


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

Boggo said:


> Just take a (petrol) generator everywhere
> 
> View attachment 84956




The interesting part to that photo, is that even if an electric car did charge like that, it would still be achieving a much better fuel economy than a car that used the motor to power a mechanical drive chain directly.

In fact there is already Hybrid cars that basically use that system, they have an onboard petrol engine that is used to charge a battery, the chevy volt is an example. and they get more kilometres per litre of fuel than regular cars.

Also, diesel freight trains use the same system, they burn diesel to make electricity for their electric motors, Gives them more horse power and more range.


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

Dyson, the company that makes Vacuum cleaners and fans has said it will bring out an electric vehicle in 2020.

Interesting times.


----------



## luutzu (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Dyson, the company that makes Vacuum cleaners and fans has said it will bring out an electric vehicle in 2020.
> 
> Interesting times.





I bet it's gonna suck. 

Man, the taxpayer funded R&D expense account is going to hit the roof.


----------



## luutzu (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> That's the benefit of electric, multi sources of fuel, some of which you can generate yourself, lol




can't fault you for not being an optimist man.


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

So


luutzu said:


> Man, the taxpayer funded R&D expense account is going to hit the roof.




What do you mean? which R&D is tax payer funded?


> can't fault you for not being an optimist man



.

Life is better that way, 

not to mention I have made a living drinking the the half filled glasses the pessimists have turned their nose at, lol,


----------



## luutzu (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So
> 
> What do you mean? which R&D is tax payer funded?




I'm betting that there's some new gov't subsidy and tax rebate/incentives to get into EV's R&D. 

Not saying that under certain situations that kind of incentive aren't good or beneficial. Just to hear that Dyson is getting into the act.. .the cynic in me says they're just milking the tax system, use the fund to focus on a car vacumn cleaner or something. 

Heard that in the US there's a tax rebate for buyers of Tesla. Not sure if it still current but a Tesla owner apparently get some $US12k back from their Tesla purchase.

hmmm... what the hell? The average yankee don't have $1K spare in case of emergency, yet the poorer folks who can afford a $180K or so car get a tax rebate on that purchase?

Then there's the free land for Tesla to set up its mega factory, plus hundreds in millions per year in tax subsidies.

When a country like China do these kind of stuff, the gov't actually own the enterprise.


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> I'm betting that there's some new gov't subsidy and tax rebate/incentives to get into EV's R&D.
> 
> Not saying that under certain situations that kind of incentive aren't good or beneficial. Just to hear that Dyson is getting into the act.. .the cynic in me says they're just milking the tax system, use the fund to focus on a car vacumn cleaner or something.
> 
> .




Maybe look for some facts before forming the opinion, I am all for skepticism but cynicism is a curse, so try being a skeptic rather than a cynic.



> Heard that in the US there's a tax rebate for buyers of Tesla. Not sure if it still current but a Tesla owner apparently get some $US12k back from their Tesla purchase.
> 
> hmmm... what the hell? The average yankee don't have $1K spare in case of emergency, yet the poorer folks who can afford a $180K or so car get a tax rebate on that purchase?




It's limited to a certain number of cars, its about assisting a new industry get established, and any benefit is dwarfed by the government incentives given to big oil over the last 100years.

but have you been to LA, The air pollution is terrible 1000's of people die and many more suffer health issues due to air pollution, having less cars pumping out poisonous gas helps every one, not just rich folk.

Not to mention that the USA is among the largest carbon emitters, helping reduce carbon emissions should benefit the entire globe. 



> Then there's the free land for Tesla to set up its mega factory, plus hundreds in millions per year in tax subsidies.
> 
> When a country like China do these kind of stuff, the gov't actually own the enterprise




Are you talking about the loan they repaid with interest and a bonus payment and 7 years before it was due?

Free land? oh you mean that piece of worthless dessert that the state gave up to guarantee a mega factory would be built in their area ensuring they will receive lots of local employment for their citizens at the factory and outside in service industries, while being able to collect incomes taxes from those employees, sounds like a good deal to me.


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## luutzu (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe look for some facts before forming the opinion, I am all for skepticism but cynicism is a curse, so try being a skeptic rather than a cynic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Musk is telling half-truths about the loan there.

Just a quick google and the American taxpayers didn't exactly "make a profit" on their loan to Tesla. Not by the normal lending practices.

Musk claimed that Us taxpayers make a profit of $US26M. 

First of, interest received on loans aren't exactly "profit", it's interest, the cost of money. So interest in and of itself can't be said to be profit unless the interest is way above the market rate... say current rate is 4% but Tesla was loaned at 6%, so the public/lender makes 2% profit on top. 

Don't know the detail to really figure out the true profit... but here....

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...sla-dont-see-eye-to-eye-idUSBRE94M11D20130523

Repaid $452M as last portion of the loan. i.e. That's not the entire loan received.

Loan offered in 2009, repaid about 2013.

$26M "profit" on $452M over 3 years is practically free money.

Assume that the $452M portion is part of a bigger loan... I mean the US put aside some $300B or more to fund the loan and bailouts of US auto industry, from which Tesla got some.

------

Yes, other auto makers got loans; other companies also got it too... some even go bankrupt and lost everything. So it is good that Tesla managed to repay it.

But it shouldn't be sold as them being nice and good to the public. That's a bit dishonest.

That and stop with saying you, Musk, putting your own money into Tesla to keep i afloat. 
You're an entrepreneur, you're supposed to put up your own money into your company. 

What is this, SpaceX where the Pentagon and CIA funded all the rockets and trials?

-------

Does it sound right for rich people who can afford $180K+ car to be getting a tax rebate?

Maybe if the gov't care so much for the air quality and health of the sick Americans, give those rebates towards healthcare for the sufferer. 

-------

The desert might be worthless when no ultilities and infrastructure are built on it; but it's pretty darn valuable to a company, any company, once all the roads and power and utilities are built to get people to that useless desert housing a roof full of solar panel that generate electricity.

I read a, from memory, BusinessWeek report into Tesla's/Musk pitting one state gov't against another to get the subsidies. 

I don't remember reading any guarantee that Tesla would keep hiring X number of American workers. At most, give them 3 years and they'll either automate everything or just ship the jobs overseas to China or Mexico. 

They will still get the keep the plant, the subsidies and the roads.. .well the roads the ratepayers still own and will of course need to maintained.

And I just read a few days or weeks ago that Musk is thinking about manufacturing future Teslas in China.

-----

And no, I'm quite optimistic. I just see way too much PR about private genius and entrepreneurial ability to save the world yet if you look below the surface a bit, it's pretty all funded by the public, most of whom would never get to use what their money was put towards.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Musk is telling half-truths about the loan there.
> 
> Just a quick google and the American taxpayers didn't exactly "make a profit" on their loan to Tesla. Not by the normal lending practices.
> 
> ...




Dude, they got a loan, they paid it back with interest, it didn't cost the government anything, trying to wiggle and say "oh but the cost of capital blah blah blah" is silly, especially when government rates were pretty much 0% or negative.



> Yes, other auto makers got loans; other companies also got it too... some even go bankrupt and lost everything. So it is good that Tesla managed to repay it.
> 
> But it shouldn't be sold as them being nice and good to the public. That's a bit dishonest.




It's not being sold that way, Musk is just defending the company from attacks that were constantly accusing Tesla of being a burden on the government.





> What is this, SpaceX where the Pentagon and CIA funded all the rockets and trials?




Do you know how much the USA government spends on launching satellites, it costs about $400 Million each launch, and its quite possible musk can reduce this to $40 Million, that 10 for 1.

Know if the government refused to look into that I think it would be silly.



> Does it sound right for rich people who can afford $180K+ car to be getting a tax rebate?




Who said they are all rich, some wouldn't be able to buy it without the rebate.





> Maybe if the gov't care so much for the air quality and health of the sick Americans, give those rebates towards healthcare for the sufferer.




Didn't you mother ever tell you prevention is better than the cure?
-------



> The desert might be worthless when no ultilities and infrastructure are built on it; but it's pretty darn valuable to a company, any company, once all the roads and power and utilities are built to get people to that useless desert housing a roof full of solar panel that generate electricity.




Yes, once Tesla has a mega factory there everything around it become more valuable.

So the local government that gave the land will earn more in property taxes and income taxes and it will be a boost to the whole state.



> I read a, from memory, BusinessWeek report into Tesla's/Musk pitting one state gov't against another to get the subsidies.




So that proves the states are seeing it as an investment, if they are competing for it.



> I don't remember reading any guarantee that Tesla would keep hiring X number of American workers. At most, give them 3 years and they'll either automate everything or just ship the jobs overseas to China or Mexico.




Do you want to bet another bottle of rum on that, eg I bet that in 3 years Tesla still has American workers at both factories.



> They will still get the keep the plant, the subsidies and the roads.. .well the roads the ratepayers still own and will of course need to maintained.




you aren't even making sense, first you say they will move to china or Mexico, then you say but they will keep the factory??? what's the point of the factory if they have moved production to Mexico or china.



> And I just read a few days or weeks ago that Musk is thinking about manufacturing future Teslas in China.




Yes, making the Tesla's in china to sell to china.

He already stated longterm he wants to have multiple Gigafactories (battery plant) and vehicle plants around the world.

His Giga factory will be the largest factory in the world when its done, but he has said there needs to be 100 of them around the world to supply enough batteries for cars, homes etc etc

He said they won't all be Tesla factories, but he definitely wants to build more gigafactories.
-----



> And no, I'm quite optimistic. I just see way too much PR about private genius and entrepreneurial ability to save the world yet if you look below the surface a bit, it's pretty all funded by the public, most of whom would never get to use what their money was put towards.




I doubt you have even looked at their balance sheet.


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## Garpal Gumnut (29 November 2017)

I stopped behind a Telsa in Townsville 2 days ago and it looked sweet. Took off like a proper car.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

Economics of the space X rocket explained.


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## luutzu (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Economics of the space X rocket explained.





The video is basically the guy reading PR releases from SpaceX, maybe some quotes from a few Musk interviews.

Bringing a space launch of satellites down from the current $400M to $50M or $10M... that's not a fact, that's a marketing presentation.

And they have tried reusable spacecraft - the Space Shuttle. It cost the US some $500M per launch with them.

It's not as reusable as the powerpoint said it is. I've actually saw a doco on it. It was sold as so affordable and reusable in that you would just dust it off and add fuel. Reality was they pretty much have to go through the entire system, check the millions or so parts.

Might be cheaper to just build a cheap, ugly but working tube with fuel firing at the end, shoot it up and let it burn in outer space.

And come on, Musk not wanting to make money on SpaceX. He simply want to go to Mars.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> The video is basically the guy reading PR releases from SpaceX, maybe some quotes from a few Musk interviews.
> 
> Bringing a space launch of satellites down from the current $400M to $50M or $10M... that's not a fact, that's a marketing presentation.
> 
> ...




All I can say is wait and see, I would offer another bet, but I think I would end up drunk with all your money, and I don't want to take the food from your kids mouths.

I have been following space X, and they have been making pretty solid progress.



> And come on, Musk not wanting to make money on SpaceX. He simply want to go to Mars.




Why not? I mean if he was in things for the money, I doubt he would have chosen the businesses he has.

He could have just plonked his $165 Million into an index and sat pool side in Hawaii earning $16Million a year.

If you look at all that Musk has done and just get cynical and negative, I think its more of a reflection you more than him.


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## jetblack (29 November 2017)

I like the electric car and motorcycle, its the charge up. If you could charge the battery full in as much time as it took to fill the average family SUV from empty then its a plus. But I think Battery SWap Stations are the go, and that will take Service attendants to do this work, cant imagine an old lady changing a battery, so we going back in time to full Service Stations, Love my 351.


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## sptrawler (29 November 2017)

jetblack said:


> I like the electric car and motorcycle, its the charge up. If you could charge the battery full in as much time as it took to fill the average family SUV from empty then its a plus. But I think Battery SWap Stations are the go, and that will take Service attendants to do this work, cant imagine an old lady changing a battery, so we going back in time to full Service Stations, Love my 351.




Just wondering, do you have any idea how big a 90Kw/hr battery is?

Google Tesla battery pictures, and check it out, it is the whole sub frame of the car.

Best of luck swapping that out in a workshop, let alone in an outback swap station.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

jetblack said:


> I like the electric car and motorcycle, its the charge up. If you could charge the battery full in as much time as it took to fill the average family SUV from empty then its a plus. But I think Battery SWap Stations are the go, and that will take Service attendants to do this work, cant imagine an old lady changing a battery, so we going back in time to full Service Stations, Love my 351.



it actually takes less time to charge your battery than it does to fill your tank with petrol.

You just park in you garage and plug it in, it takes 10 seconds of your time.

But filling you car with petrol takes 10 mins, by the time drive in, fill, pay, drive off, it takes even longer to fill if you have to make a special trip out of your way to the petrol station.

The only time you have to worry about charge times is on road trips, but starting with a full battery then 25mins charge along the way gets you 700kms, and driving 700kms without atleast 25 mins of breaks would Be unusual.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Just wondering, do you have any idea how big a 90Kw/hr battery is?
> 
> Google Tesla battery pictures, and check it out, it is the whole sub frame of the car.
> 
> Best of luck swapping that out in a workshop, let alone in an outback swap station.



Google Tesla battery swap, there is a YouTube video of a machine they designed to do it in 90seconds, but they decided it just wasn't needed, so didn't pursue the idea, the super chargers are more practical


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## sptrawler (29 November 2017)

The good thing about Musk is, he is pushing the boundaries, which is causing stress in the established auto industries.
At worst, he will probably be bought out, at best he will continue challenging the establishment to adapt and change.
In the end it is a win/win for consumers, they are being forced into a transition from fossil fuel, at the manufacturers expense.
Whether they end up with battery/ battery hybrid or hydrogen fuel cell, the good thing is Musk has taken the fight up to the established manufacturers, and we have to thank him for that.
Without a Musk, we would be paying for the development of the new technologies.IMO

Having said that, there is no way I'm buying an electric vehicle, in the next 10 years, I was burnt buying a Tandy TRS80 for $1500.
Thankfully I realised the mistake and sold it quickly for $1,000, that was in 1981. lol


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## sptrawler (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Google Tesla battery swap, there is a YouTube video of a machine they designed to do it in 90seconds, but they decided it just wasn't needed, so didn't pursue the idea, the super chargers are more practical




Jeez VC, you need to take the plunge and open up a Tesla dealership, you certainly have the chat and it is a brand new field.
Could be the opportunity of a life time.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Best of luck swapping that out in a workshop, let alone in an outback swap station.




Here is the video of the battery swap, its takes this machine less than 2 mins.

But as I said Tesla have sort of abandoned this Idea, and instead have focussed on fast chargers.


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## luutzu (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> All I can say is wait and see, I would offer another bet, but I think I would end up drunk with all your money, and I don't want to take the food from your kids mouths.
> 
> I have been following space X, and they have been making pretty solid progress.
> 
> ...




That quote only applies to young cynics. I'm a bit older now so my cynicism got that grey hair to give it authority 

You might mix up the meaning of cynicism with pessimism. They're quite different aren't they?

A cynic would listen to a sales pitch for a sale of the century and have a good laugh. 

A optimist nearby would clap and cry for a world of peace and joy that's to come.

A pessimist would do something sad. 

-----------

What were you planning to bet on? A sense of humour you got there too. 
But yea, shouldn't bet as I'd feel bad you have to both pay Tesla's insane Idle Fee and pay me. 

Heard they're charging a higher rate for faster charging, twice as much.

One would think that if Tesla cares so much for not holding up Tesla owners at the pump, they'd halved the price if you choose to charge at a higher rate. Make more sense that way, right?

So how does charging more per same kilowatt not disconnect with the of getting people quickly on the road and free the space? It's a money grab, not that there's anything wrong with that.

---------

Why would Elon Musk and his work make anyone optimistic about the future? 

I do give him credit for not sitting around with all that cash and just spend it. But to do some work, move around in jets, and get paid in the hundreds of millions and billions for it. That's nothing new. I know people who would work for a lot less. 

[I know I know, he got paid $1 for running Tesla or something... yes, I bet he doesn't own any stock or give himself any options]. 

So for Musk to not waste his time and money, and opportunities... that's nice and good. Nothing praise worthy or tear shedding about it. It's just another person going to work.

And dude, would Musk still be CEO if he seriously do not want to make money out of things his company is flogging? He'd be fired in a minute if he implement policies where his shareholders wouldn't make any money. Be sued by creditors too.

So it's easy to say he doesn't need the money or work for the money... a bit hard to believe when he charges crap load of cash for his cars and genius. Heck, he even charge for people not doing anything.


So yea, I don't see a better future and be optimistic because a capitalist want to use other people's money to make more money (by selling stuff). 

Optimism comes from such thing as hearing about a guy who goes to Cambodia during his annual leave, spend a month there to work with others, using his own money, to build schools and pay for textbooks and stationary for impoverish children. 

--------

As to Musk entrepreneurial ability... meh. 
Unless it turns out that he design the engine, create whatever it is that build those rockets... he's just a salesman, a highly paid and over-rated one.

Thomas Edison; Nikola Tesla; Henry Ford; Walt Disney... maybe even Bill Gates and Steve Jobs... Those are people who build new industries with their own genius and hard work. 

Steve Jobs, to his credit, does a bit more than playing the orchestra. He did backed Pixar Studios when it was in the dump and would be flushed by Disney if he didn't fork out the cash, the time and patience to help it find small work where it can.

So unless Musk is also a literal rocket scientist; a genius car engineer... Any idiot can have vision and dream big when they have billions upon billions of dollars to play with.


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## luutzu (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> it actually takes less time to charge your battery than it does to fill your tank with petrol.
> 
> You just park in you garage and plug it in, it takes 10 seconds of your time.
> 
> ...




Doesn't it take 1 hour per 3 miles on a standard home charger using standard plugs? 

To get a faster charge from home, owners need to install a 3-phase, whatever amp that is... cost could go from $1K to $2K or so? Depends?

Not saying it's Tesla or any EV manufacturer's fault. It's a relatively new are and the gov't hasn't had the fund to build the infrastructure for them yet.

Still, these are faults and inconvenience we forgive on cheap stuff we buy, not luxury items that costs a few years savings for most folks.


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> You might mix up the meaning of cynicism with pessimism. They're quite different aren't they?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 84971




Nope I didn't mix up the meaning, but I believe you are both, but mainly a cynic.
Thomas Edison; Nikola Tesla; Henry Ford; Walt Disney... maybe even Bill Gates and Steve Jobs... Those are people who build new industries with their own genius and hard work. 



> Steve Jobs, to his credit, does a bit more than playing the orchestra. He did backed Pixar Studios when it was in the dump and would be flushed by Disney if he didn't fork out the cash, the time and patience to help it find small work where it can.
> 
> So unless Musk is also a literal rocket scientist; a genius car engineer... Any idiot can have vision and dream big when they have billions upon billions of dollars to play with.




Was Henry Ford the best mechanical engineer?
Was Walt Disney the best Animator?
Was Steve Jobs the Best computer programer?

No they weren't, But they had Vision and backed it will everything they had, and they changed the world in doing it.

So I am not sure why you detract from Musk becasue as you say he isn't "a literal rocket scientist" of "genius car engineer"

I respect people that have big visions, and put everything they have into making it happen.

-----------------------
But look I will leave you to your cynicism,


----------



## luutzu (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Dude, they got a loan, they paid it back with interest, it didn't cost the government anything, trying to wiggle and say "oh but the cost of capital blah blah blah" is silly, especially when government rates were pretty much 0% or negative.




Not so silly when the same "free" money aren't given to, I don't know... struggling families living on foodstamps that's being reduced because the gov't "have no money"; or poor citizens who can't afford healthcare, goes broke if they ever suffer a serious illness.

It's not a loan if it's practically free. It's called welfare.




Value Collector said:


> It's not being sold that way, Musk is just defending the company from attacks that were constantly accusing Tesla of being a burden on the government.




People shouldn't attack Tesla for that. Pretty much all of corporations around the world does it. 




Value Collector said:


> Do you know how much the USA government spends on launching satellites, it costs about $400 Million each launch, and its quite possible musk can reduce this to $40 Million, that 10 for 1.
> 
> Know if the government refused to look into that I think it would be silly.




The $40M is what they say. Accounting can be a bit funny when it comes to costs you want to ignore.

And SpaceX aren't planning on going to Mars. What the heck would they do there? take some photos for the desktop wall paper?

Just you can't say all the fundings are for surveillance and military uses. Can't say it's a way to use public fund to pay for private research and development into new fields with the potential for military and national security uses.

that's how pretty much all new tech are funded. With a grand vision to conquer the final frontier, paid for by the public until profit can be made... at which time they're passed onto private hands.




Value Collector said:


> Who said they are all rich, some wouldn't be able to buy it without the rebate.




Should we shed some tears for those who's $12K or so short of buying a $180K luxury car?

I don't think you could feel sorry for anyone who's $12K short of buying a car. 

My first car cost $500. $500 of parts from a wrecker later and its battery only die once every few times I take it out.

Most people would be happy to have a car at $12K budget.



Value Collector said:


> Didn't you mother ever tell you prevention is better than the cure?
> -------




She did, but she didn't at the same time take my allowance and gave it to her favourite kid because he needs the extra few bucks to buy a better toy.




Value Collector said:


> Yes, once Tesla has a mega factory there everything around it become more valuable.
> 
> So the local government that gave the land will earn more in property taxes and income taxes and it will be a boost to the whole state.
> So that proves the states are seeing it as an investment, if they are competing for it.




Well... give any entrepreneur free land, build new roads and infrastructure around them; give them tax breaks and incentives in the hundreds of millions and pretty soon the industry complex you're setting up for them become valuable. Probably try to then not give similar deals to nearby corporations who whinge about Tesla being favoured.



Value Collector said:


> Do you want to bet another bottle of rum on that, eg I bet that in 3 years Tesla still has American workers at both factories.




Having a few guys at the computer isn't exactly having a workforce employing good jobs and all that.



Value Collector said:


> you aren't even making sense, first you say they will move to china or Mexico, then you say but they will keep the factory??? what's the point of the factory if they have moved production to Mexico or china.




You keep the factory for other things. Say, robotic assembling; storage... just enough percentage of a car's value to get more tax breaks.

That and you spread out factories across various states and jurisdiction. Make sure there's enough workers and businesses to be calling their Senator and reps if funding and sweatheart deals are ever reduced.

that and you need excess capacity. That's how you threaten the workforces around the world to better get more efficient for less pay else you ship the jobs to them vacant factories.

Can do the same threat with state and local revenue too.




Value Collector said:


> Yes, making the Tesla's in china to sell to china.
> 
> He already stated longterm he wants to have multiple Gigafactories (battery plant) and vehicle plants around the world.
> 
> ...




I don't think China would want a Tesla there so they can buy more Teslas. 

And if I could get a giga factory for free... sign me up man. I'd have htem all over the Earth, and even Mars.




Value Collector said:


> I doubt you have even looked at their balance sheet.




Don't really need to look at Tesla's to know what's in it


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Doesn't it take 1 hour per 3 miles on a standard home charger using standard plugs?
> 
> To get a faster charge from home, owners need to install a 3-phase, whatever amp that is... cost could go from $1K to $2K or so? Depends?
> 
> .




If you plug into a normal power point it charges at about 6.4 km's per hour,

If you have installed a home charger it will charge at 50kms / hour, from empty to full in about 10 hours, while you sleep mainly.



> Still, these are faults and inconvenience we forgive on cheap stuff we buy, not luxury items that costs a few years savings for most folks




Where is the inconvenience? if you own the car you would install a charger at your home, and can charge at like 50km's per hour.

If you really don't want to pay an electrician to install a 3 phase charger , you could still get away with charging on your standard power point. charging it over night for say 12 hours a night gives you 530 kilometres of driving a week, if you are at home for more than 12 hours a day, you will get more.

If thats not enough then you might have to stop at an charge station, which you have to do about once a week with a petrol car anyway.

But, some one that drives alot would just install a charger at their home.

AGL will install a charger for you, then only charge you $1 per day for unlimited charging.

Lets say the charger is $1000 and 1 year of charging is $365 = $1365 / year

50 Litres of fuel x $1.40/L = $70 / week = $3640 / year

So even factoring in installing a charger saves you more than $2000 in the first year compared to going to the fuel station.


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## Wysiwyg (29 November 2017)

This is really exciting as an electric vehicle. Electric boat propulsion. Surely there is a massive market for them in Australia.


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## luutzu (29 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Nope I didn't mix up the meaning, but I believe you are both, but mainly a cynic.
> Thomas Edison; Nikola Tesla; Henry Ford; Walt Disney... maybe even Bill Gates and Steve Jobs... Those are people who build new industries with their own genius and hard work.
> 
> 
> ...




So Musk rolled up his sleeves and do the important bits?

Henry Ford actually build his first few cars by himself and a couple of buddies, in his garage. He might not be the best ones, not even close to the likes of those in Europe working on the Rolls Royce or whatever, but he know and work on his vision from the ground up. 

Similar with Walt Disney. etc. 

I'm not taking anything away from Musk. I'm sure he's a smart guy who's obviously hardworking. That's great. 

To call him a visionary... he's more of a promoter and manager than a true visionary.

Just because I don't rate Musk too highly doesn't mean I'm cynical. Just that there are people I highly admire more than Musk. And they arent all rich or famous or as successful as he is either.

Take my two brothers. They have full time jobs. They barely have a proper garage. They could not hire anybody....

Yet they borrow and save, buy used cars, import electric drive trains and work by themselves on weekends to figure out how to put an "EV" together. Just because they love it. 

And they don't do it with ATO tax subsidies or tax breaks or proper engineers either.


----------



## Wysiwyg (30 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> To call him a visionary... he's more of a promoter and manager than a true visionary.



I agree. He is the mega entrepreneur.


> Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy through increasingly affordable electric vehicles and energy products.



That is exactly what they are doing and any capitalist will join the ride. The technology is replicable and comparatively simple. The best affordable products will do well. I look forward to the Toyota 4WD electric long range vehicle whenever they come out. For home storage LGChem from Korea might be one to watch.
Would I buy a Tesla product? No. There will come a point like with the internet where we go from dial up to high speed connection and from snail pace processing to instant. All that at an affordable price. When that time arrives will be the time for me to jump in. 10 years at a guess but hopefully sooner.


----------



## Value Collector (30 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> So Musk rolled up his sleeves and do the important bits?
> 
> .





Do you honestly think Tesla would exist as it is now without him? I don't.


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Do you honestly think Tesla would exist as it is now without him? I don't.




Of course not. 
It could be better, worst... it'll be different because a CEO and their decision do change the culture and competencies of the org.

It might sound like I pooh-pooh Musk. I'm not. 

I think he's done well and helped push the auto industry into a different gear. That in itself is an incredible achievement. 

But it's not all him and his work. Not like it's made out to be in the presses.

He's no Thomas Edison with the lightbulb and a hundred or two other inventions; he's no Henry Ford working out of his garage then perfected the assembly line to put the world on wheels.  

He's a rich guy with a few good ideas who managed to get a few people together, build a prototype then go raise billions of other people's money. That's not easy, but it's not world shattering or visionary.

In fact, he's probably a few runk below the like of Thomas Watson Jr. The son of Snr. who take his dad's POS cash register business, put billions of the company's own cash towards the IBM computer. 

Musk and Watson Jr. are similar in that they're business managers. Capable enough to see what the future of the industry looks like and spend the investment to make it.

The issue I have with Musk's image, note that it's not an issue with him the person but what the public makes him out to be... is that we see Musk as some sort of visionary, some genius who build cars and build space rockets almost single-handedly. You know, like Tony Stark building his IronMan, then build Spiderman's new outfit... all in his basement by the sea.


----------



## Junior (30 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Of course not.
> It could be better, worst... it'll be different because a CEO and their decision do change the culture and competencies of the org.
> 
> It might sound like I pooh-pooh Musk. I'm not.
> ...




The stories in this book may change you mind around Musk.


----------



## Value Collector (30 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> Of course not.
> It could be better, worst... it'll be different because a CEO and their decision do change the culture and competencies of the org.




Tesla would have been Bankrupt without his money, and his ideas around hanging the way the public view electric cars, Before Musk decided to make them "cool" they were seen as boxy science experiments.



> He's a rich guy with a few good ideas who managed to get a few people together, build a prototype then go raise billions of other people's money. That's not easy, but it's not world shattering or visionary.




Well it does seem to be changing the world.


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2017)

Amazon creating jobs and taking taxes from the state, literally.

Some state bid to hand over Amazon's employees their income tax. Wow.


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla would have been Bankrupt without his money, and his ideas around hanging the way the public view electric cars, Before Musk decided to make them "cool" they were seen as boxy science experiments.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it does seem to be changing the world.





An electric car has always been cool. Name one person who didn't watched that older doco about GM's dumping of its test Electric car and not think that's a mistake.

Like I said, entrepreneurs are expected to put up their money into their ventures. So what's the big deal about Musk putting up his own cash into his own company? Or a company he runs? 

Lots of other entrepreneurs put in a whole lot more than just their time and money. 

So to put in his hundred millions to keep it afloat with billions upon billions of other people's money... to bring your fortune from the hundred millions to now about $2.7B... Not too much of a risk and a sacrifice if you ask me.

Cars running on batteries/electricities is hardly a new idea. Not when it cost some $200K aussie to own one. And $US35K isn't exactly a cheap car either.

It's not exactly a candle and kerosene lamp to an electric bulb; or a handful of super-luxurious, handmade cars to a death-trap that most everyone could own.


----------



## Value Collector (30 November 2017)

luutzu said:


> An electric car has always been cool. Name one person who didn't watched that older doco about GM's dumping of its test Electric car and not think that's a mistake.




Yeah, and the electric car industry died, ........ until Elon put millions into Tesla, and changed that.


> Like I said, entrepreneurs are expected to put up their money into their ventures.



Yeah, and if they put pretty much everything they have, into a venture, that is extremely hard, that big established companies have failed at, and they succeed, I think they deserve a bit of praise.

He is not your average venture capitalist, I don't think he has an exit strategy, he is in this for the long term.


----------



## Value Collector (30 November 2017)

Check this video at the 12.10min mark.

This is what I am talking about when I say charging stations will be popping up in non traditional locations.

This spot has 20 charging bays, just in a regular shopping centre car park, very little room needed, no staff needed. Tesla users just pull up and plug in.

As other manufacturers get on board it, and more non Tesla vehicles start popping up, I see generic charging stations popping up in car parks every where, just tap your credit card and charge.


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## sptrawler (4 December 2017)

This is what I'm talking about.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/ener...gen-and-renewables-plant-20171204-gzycr9.html

Wait until the oil companies realise there is life for servo's, if they change over from petrol to hydrogen, IMO it's a no brainer.
When oil companies start making hydrogen plants, and install tanks and pumps in their servo's it will cause a rapid take up of hydrogen powered cars.


----------



## Value Collector (4 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> This is what I'm talking about.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/ener...gen-and-renewables-plant-20171204-gzycr9.html
> 
> ...



I it's to late for hydrogen,

The only economical source is natural gas, which locks us into 1 single fuel vs electricity which comes from multiple sources.

Unless, we use electricity for the hydrogen, but that's inefficient, and you are better off just using the power to charge ev batteries.


----------



## sptrawler (4 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I it's to late for hydrogen,
> 
> The only economical source is natural gas, which locks us into 1 single fuel vs electricity which comes from multiple sources.
> 
> Unless, we use electricity for the hydrogen, but that's inefficient, and you are better off just using the power to charge ev batteries.




I disagree with you, but as we have said, time will tell.
Batteries will have a place as a stop gap, until there is enough excess renewable generation, to manufacture bulk hydrogen.
When that happens, it will be curtains for battery e.v IMO.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-08/trial-to-inject-hydrogen-into-gas-lines/8782956

http://www.hybridcars.com/worlds-largest-eco-friendly-hydrogen-plant-opens-in-germany/


----------



## luutzu (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I disagree with you, but as we have said, time will tell.
> Batteries will have a place as a stop gap, until there is enough excess renewable generation, to manufacture bulk hydrogen.
> When that happens, it will be curtains for battery e.v IMO.
> 
> ...




The world can't go all electric. If it does, the traffic jam from 4pm to 5.30pm will follow by mass blackouts at 6pm. 

The world's oil reserves will run out in about 100 years. So far, there doesn't seem any likely potential alernative fuel source for planes and jets beside oil, or even shipping... and the world can't move without those two modes of transportation.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> The world can't go all electric. If it does, the traffic jam from 4pm to 5.30pm will follow by mass blackouts at 6pm.
> 
> The world's oil reserves will run out in about 100 years. So far, there doesn't seem any likely potential alernative fuel source for planes and jets beside oil, or even shipping... and the world can't move without those two modes of transportation.



Jets can run on liquid hydrogen, the only problem is the cost to produce it, using fossil fuels.
That isn't a problem when you are using renewables


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> The world can't go all electric. If it does, the traffic jam from 4pm to 5.30pm will follow by mass blackouts at 6pm.




Why, the cars can be charged during off peak times, the electricity demand starts crashing by 9 at night, and most peoples daily commute would only take less than2 hours of charging,

the power stations owners would love it, steady electric demand through hours that traditionally are loss making.


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I disagree with you, but as we have said, time will tell.
> Batteries will have a place as a stop gap, until there is enough excess renewable generation, to manufacture bulk hydrogen.
> When that happens, it will be curtains for battery e.v IMO.
> 
> ...




Have you done the numbers on whether you could profitably run a wind farm and produce hydrogen? eg can a $100Million wind farm generate enough hydrogen to make the investment in both the wind farm and the conversion plant worth it, if not where is all this "excess" electricity going to come from, people aren't going to keep adding infrastructure once a glut forms.

You seem to miss the point that using the electricity to create hydrogen isn't as efficient as just using the electricity to charge a car.

eg, if you can get 1000km's out of an EV, using the same amount of electricity it takes a hydrogen car to move 300km's, what is the point of adding the complexity of a hydrogen network?


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> the only problem is the cost to produce it, using fossil fuels.
> That isn't a problem when you are using renewables




Why isn't cost a problem with renewables? renewables aren't free, they take a massive capital investment to set up, which has to pay for itself, So whether you are building an oil rig or a wind farm, you are building expensive infrastructure that has a limited life, that needs to generate enough revenue to cover its construction, running cost and a return on those invested funds.


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

Electric (battery) vs Hydrogen.

Both cars are essentiality electric vehicles, it's just an one uses the simple model to deliver electricity to the motors and the other a complex model.

1, Create electricity -> charge a battery -> battery runs the car motors.

2, Create electricity -> use electricity inefficiently to create hydrogen -> then compress the hydrogen and store it -> truck it cross country -> Store it at fill station -> then fill the car -> convert the hydrogen back to electricity ->  run the car motor.


----------



## luutzu (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Jets can run on liquid hydrogen, the only problem is the cost to produce it, using fossil fuels.
> That isn't a problem when you are using renewables




Jets can run on hydrogen, but can it fly? 

I probably should look into that. Heard the US currently has this system on its subs that separate the H from the o2 in the water as it passes. From memory they only uses the o2 for fresh air. 

Pretty incredible the tech that's out there but not yet mass-marketed.


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Jets can run on hydrogen, but can it fly?
> 
> I probably should look into that. Heard the US currently has this system on its subs that separate the H from the o2 in the water as it passes. From memory they only uses the o2 for fresh air.
> 
> Pretty incredible the tech that's out there but not yet mass-marketed.




Probably not a bad Idea if you have a nuclear reactor on board providing you with unlimited energy, and you want don't mind wasting it if it gives you a tactical advantage by letting you stay under water for longer, but outside of that situation there is probably better uses for that energy.


----------



## luutzu (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Probably not a bad Idea if you have a nuclear reactor on board providing you with unlimited energy, and you want don't mind wasting it if it gives you a tactical advantage by letting you stay under water for longer, but outside of that situation there is probably better uses for that energy.




Yea, probably not a good idea to use Hydrogen near nukes either.


----------



## luutzu (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Why, the cars can be charged during off peak times, the electricity demand starts crashing by 9 at night, and most peoples daily commute would only take less than2 hours of charging,
> 
> the power stations owners would love it, steady electric demand through hours that traditionally are loss making.




Yea, but most people would charge the moment they got home right?

But I'm pretty sure by the time EV are widely available, they'll managed to infuse solar panels into the car itself.

Most cars are parked all day. So may never need grid-charging except on weekends and long trips.


----------



## Wysiwyg (5 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> But I'm pretty sure by the time EV are widely available, they'll managed to infuse solar panels into the car itself.



*This crystallised material holds the promise of revolutionary liquid solar cells*
http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...s/news-story/db5e34d1fc8b201ea557f85fd9376b28


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## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Yea, but most people would charge the moment they got home right?




Yeah, but that doesn't mean they have to start charging right away when you plug it in, off peak loads can be managed, you can program it to charge at certain times, or with the smart grid the the electric company can choose when to set the cars charging managing the load through the night.



> But I'm pretty sure by the time EV are widely available, they'll managed to infuse solar panels into the car itself.




they have them already, but there is just not enough surface area on a car to make enough energy to make it worth while.

so its a bit of a gimmick and not really practical.

you would be better off adding an extra panel to your roof of your house, so it catch rays all day (generating revenue), while you car is parked in the garage.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> you would be better off adding an extra panel to your roof of your house, so it catch rays all day (generating revenue), while you car is parked in the garage.




That sort of eliminates the idea of driving the car to work...

Maybe if battery prices get so low you can have two sets, one charging at home, the other in the car and swap them over each night.

Can't see that happening though.


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

SirRumpole said:


> That sort of eliminates the idea of driving the car to work...
> 
> .




Huh?

You just drive the car to work and charge it when you get home.

I am saying that rather than have a solar panel on the roof of your car that does very little, it would be more productive to have that extra panel on the roof of your house, where it catches sun all day, running your fridge etc or just producing a credit on your bill to offset the electricity you use to charge later.

your roof is always in the sun, your car isn't.

So if you are going to spend money on a solar panel, its best for it to be in the sun as much as possible, rather than sitting in a garage most of the time.

It's a bit of a gimmick is all I am saying, most of us park our car in the shade if possible reducing the solar output, and if you park your car in the sun, you will have to blast the air con, using any extra charge generated just to bring the temp back down.


----------



## luutzu (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah, but that doesn't mean they have to start charging right away when you plug it in, off peak loads can be managed, you can program it to charge at certain times, or with the smart grid the the electric company can choose when to set the cars charging managing the load through the night.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Current solar tech won't do it, new advances might though. 

If solar conversion rate get high enough, that spray-on potential... it could get to a point where battery packs can be reduced, lighten up the load/weight. But every bit help if the tech get advanced and cheap enough.

Then here's my yet to be patented idea: On park, the car/vehicle could raise an umbrella-like cover to both protect the car and increase coverage. Forget about overshadowing the other guys and they kicking your door in for taking their sunshine.


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Current solar tech won't do it, new advances might though.
> 
> If solar conversion rate get high enough, that spray-on potential... it could get to a point where battery packs can be reduced, lighten up the load/weight. But every bit help if the tech get advanced and cheap enough.





Maybe, but those increases would also be increasing the effect of regular roof top solar, Meaning you would be even better off having the solar panel on the roof exposed to the sun.

I mean if your old style panel is going to produce 500 Watts on car and 1500 Watts on the roof, then the new style might make 1000 watts on the car and 3000 watts on the roof.

The increasing efficiency has increased the benefit of roof top, at first having it on the car meant you lost 1000 watts due to practical issues, but now you would be losing 2000 watts.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Why isn't cost a problem with renewables? renewables aren't free, they take a massive capital investment to set up, which has to pay for itself, So whether you are building an oil rig or a wind farm, you are building expensive infrastructure that has a limited life, that needs to generate enough revenue to cover its construction, running cost and a return on those invested funds.




You obviously didn't read the article, wind farms aren't using their max available generation all the time. They have to be backed off as the load reduces due to frequency constraints, this wouldn't be required if they were producing hydrogen during off peak periods.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Have you done the numbers on whether you could profitably run a wind farm and produce hydrogen? eg can a $100Million wind farm generate enough hydrogen to make the investment in both the wind farm and the conversion plant worth it, if not where is all this "excess" electricity going to come from, people aren't going to keep adding infrastructure once a glut forms.
> 
> You seem to miss the point that using the electricity to create hydrogen isn't as efficient as just using the electricity to charge a car.
> 
> eg, if you can get 1000km's out of an EV, using the same amount of electricity it takes a hydrogen car to move 300km's, what is the point of adding the complexity of a hydrogen network?




Well it is being done in Germany, the U.S and South Australia is going to install a plant.
The wind farm isn't being built to produce hydrogen, it is a by product of the generation, when it isn't required for export.

The advantage that hydrogen has over battery are many fold.
There is no problem with charging time.
There is no problem with depleted battery waste.
Storage isn't a problem, it can be used when required, it can sit there in a cylinder for months or years without loss.
Batteries have to be used, the electricity has to be there when you need it, you can't carry a tank of it.
Hydrogen can be used to power turbines, I.C.E, you can even burn it on your kitchen cooktop. You can't do any of those things with batteries.

Batteries have come a long way, but they still have massive shortcomings, which don't look like being overcome any time soon.

Hydrogens only draw back is the cost to produce it, in every other way it exceeds battery capability and is a much more flexible fuel, so it is only a matter of time IMO


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> They have to be backed off as the load reduces due to frequency constraints, this wouldn't be required if they were producing hydrogen during off peak periods.




It wouldn't be required if they had a bank of 9,000,000 cars and other vehicles across the nation ready to be charged either, not to mention other batteries in businesses and utility scale ones ready to take any cheap off-peak loads that come their way.

Cars are parked for more hours each day than they are driven, especially at night.

A national fleet of parked cars and other large scale batteries awaiting charge, could be used to completely level out the off-peak demand.

during the Peak times, Cars would stop charging and home and businesses with batteries could use their batteries, then as demand slows the electric companies starting charging cars and batteries all night.

the end result could be a completely stable demand level, even through production fluctuates from renewables.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Jets can run on hydrogen, but can it fly?
> 
> I probably should look into that. Heard the US currently has this system on its subs that separate the H from the o2 in the water as it passes. From memory they only uses the o2 for fresh air.
> 
> Pretty incredible the tech that's out there but not yet mass-marketed.




The next step in air travel, is Sydney to London in 4Hrs, the technology being developed is scram jets.
These run on super cooled hydrogen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16682-air-breathing-planes-the-spaceships-of-the-future/

The technology isn't new and is still in development, but I think has more potential than an airplane full of AA batteries.
Just my opinion.

Hydrogen at this point of our evolution, is the best most versatile and cleanest fuel available, it is the only one that can replace oil based fuel in most instances.
The only thing is the cost to produce it, but that cost will come down as more plants are installed, to make use of renewables.


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> There is no problem with charging time.




As I pointed out charge time isn't a problem with electric cars either.


> There is no problem with depleted battery waste.




Batteries can be recycled, 




> Hydrogen can be used to power turbines,




so if you use electricity to create the hydrogen, then burn the hydrogen in a turbine to create electric, do you have any idea what percentage of the original electricity you would lose? probably at least 90%.



> you can even burn it on your kitchen cooktop. You can't do any of those things with batteries.




what do you mean, a Tesla power wall will power your kitchen cook top, and your lights, your toaster, your tv, vacuum, iPhone, computer etc etc pretty much everything in your house, and you can charge it with solar panels on your roof, no need for a truck to deliver a load of flammable gas to you.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> It wouldn't be required if they had a bank of 9,000,000 cars and other vehicles across the nation ready to be charged either, not to mention other batteries in businesses and utility scale ones ready to take any cheap off-peak loads that come their way.
> 
> Cars are parked for more hours each day than they are driven, especially at night.
> 
> ...




Like I've said time will tell, but it is certainly an interesting period of time, for all of us to live through.
Being an electrician I find it interesting, just for interests sake, both technologies are better than ICE power by oil based fuel.


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Hydrogen at this point of our evolution, is the best most versatile and cleanest fuel available, it is the only one that can replace oil based fuel in most instances.
> The only thing is the cost to produce it, but that cost will come down as more plants are installed, to make use of renewables.




I am only talking about Cars and trucks etc, these will operate more efficiently with batteries than with hydrogen, not to mention they are on the market now, if hydrogen was the answer, there are plenty of big balance sheets that would be making it happen, So far nothing is happening (in the vehicle space)


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> I am only talking about Cars and trucks etc, these will operate more efficiently with batteries than with hydrogen, not to mention they are on the market now, if hydrogen was the answer, there are plenty of big balance sheets that would be making it happen, So far nothing is happening (in the vehicle space)




O.K if every car and every truck and every house is going to have lithium batteries, how long will the lithium last, it is a fairly scarce material, when compared to most.
Recycling is never 100% and recycling lithium costs 5 times more than producing it by the the brine based process,.
So how is that going to affect costs, going forward?
Also lithium isn't the dearest material in a battery, so consider that when comparing cost of production, as demand increases and materials deplete.
I would say, it is only a matter of time before producing hydrogen, will be cheaper.

The reason hydrogen isn't being produced large scale at the moment, is because fossil fuel is readily available and already in use, as it it phased out a long term solution will force hydrogen production.IMO


----------



## luutzu (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> The next step in air travel, is Sydney to London in 4Hrs, the technology being developed is scram jets.
> These run on super cooled hydrogen.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet
> ...




Does scamjets make those sonic booms?

Read that Concord was in use while Boeing's version was abandoned because Boeing designed theirs to go across the US continent while Concord goes over the ocean. 

Overland break windows and a few ear drums 

It's going to be more affordable to build high-speed bullet trains in the near future. So possible that airline services over major cities might not be necessary soon enough.

Quite a few incredible tech advances over the past few decades. I still remember having a cassette Walkman not too long ago.


----------



## luutzu (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe, but those increases would also be increasing the effect of regular roof top solar, Meaning you would be even better off having the solar panel on the roof exposed to the sun.
> 
> I mean if your old style panel is going to produce 500 Watts on car and 1500 Watts on the roof, then the new style might make 1000 watts on the car and 3000 watts on the roof.
> 
> The increasing efficiency has increased the benefit of roof top, at first having it on the car meant you lost 1000 watts due to practical issues, but now you would be losing 2000 watts.




You're making too much sense. And also sells your battery pack idea. 

Would be cool to follow SirR's idea of a spare battery pack for the car charging at home though.


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> O.K if every car and every truck and every house is going to have lithium batteries, how long will the lithium last, it is a fairly scarce material, when compared to most.
> Recycling is never 100% and recycling lithium costs 5 times more than producing it by the the brine based process,.
> So how is that going to affect costs, going forward?




Firstly I never said all batteries forever will be lithium ion, there is plenty of different types of existing and emerging battery types and different chemistries.

Secondly, as the market demands more lithium more capital will be deployed to find and produce lithium, and to recycle more.

Tesla's battery factory actually plans to use old lithium batteries as part of its feed stock.

not to mention lithium is not the major cost of the battery nor is it the main material, you can double the cost of lithium and not raise the price of the battery.




> The reason hydrogen isn't being produced large scale at the moment, is because fossil fuel is readily available and already in use, as it it phased out a long term solution will force hydrogen production.IMO




So hydrogen relies on fossil fuels becoming more expensive before it makes sense, while electric vehicles already beat Oil on running costs even at all time low oil prices.

thats a pretty important fact right there.

Not to mention that battery tech is improving rapidly, in the not to distant future batteries may have almost unlimited battery cycles, I mean the battery will already out live the car, but it may out live the owner in fixed locations such as homes eventually.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Read that Concord was in use while Boeing's version was abandoned because Boeing designed theirs to go across the US continent while Concord goes over the ocean.




Interesting you mention the Concord, it used to fly at supersonic speed, the biggest design difficulty was keeping the turbine inlet air speed down. 
That is why they had the weird box shaped inlets, as opposed to round inlets on normal airliners, it was to slow the air inlet speed down.
Air inlet speed is the main limiting factor of the existing turbo fan design, that is why there is a huge amount of development going on with the scram jet, no turbine blades.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> So hydrogen relies on fossil fuels becoming more expensive before it makes sense, while electric vehicles already beat Oil on running costs even at all time low oil prices.
> 
> thats a pretty important fact right there.
> 
> Not to mention that battery tech is improving rapidly, in the not to distant future batteries may have almost unlimited battery cycles, I mean the battery will already out live the car, but it may out live the owner in fixed locations such as homes eventually.




Let's not forget, batteries are using a very finite material source, which will fast become an issue.
Battery tech will advance, and no doubt merge into fuel cell technology, it is just when? Like I said time will tell.
But I wouldn't be supprised, if in the next 10 - 15 years, all wind farms have hydrogen plants attached.

https://www.hygen.com/top-3-advantages-using-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles/

https://twitter.com/hashtag/hydrogen?src=hash

http://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/the-energy-future/future-transport/hydrogen.html

https://af.reuters.com/article/africaTech/idAFL8N1O43BQ

You like posts, so there is a few that back hydrogen.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 December 2017)

So far as charging electric vehicles and off-peak loads are concerned the big issue there is that with so much solar PV being installed (mostly on house roofs but also businesses and large scale solar power stations) things are changing.

In SA already the true off-peak period on a mild day occurs around lunch time not in the middle of the night. That's already a problem in some areas with SA Power Networks (the electricity distributor in SA) changing the off-peak hot water timers (which in SA are simply a timer at the switchboard, no remote control as in NSW and Qld) to turn on in the middle of the day. A "solar sponge" they call it.

Reason they're doing that is that without that additional load there are quite a lot of areas in SA which have now exceeded what the network can cope with so far as distributed solar generation is concerned. Nobody knows for sure how much potential household solar production is being lost due to over voltage issues in the grid but it's not zero, is increasing on an annualised basis literally every working day when more systems are installed, and would be even higher without that water heating load being turned on during the day.

Also there's a problem with wind farms being constrained in output in SA because there's nowhere for the power to go. Thermal generation (in practice gas) could be off loaded even further but only at the expense of system stability so that's not a good solution. The big battery will help a bit but it's nowhere near big enough to do the lot.

So running a conventional off-peak water heater is zero emissions on a mild sunny day or any day that is windy and not seriously hot. That's a very significant % of all days in SA.

Vic is the next state in line for that problem and is fast heading the same way. Not there yet but they're on the way certainly. In due course WA and NSW will get there too.

No problems of that nature are expected in the medium term in Qld or NT but it could happen someday.

Unlikely Tas will ever get to that point for a few reasons. Climate is one but the bigger factor is that we've got a pretty high capacity distribution network compared to other places and that's a consequence of the relative lack of gas usage combined with higher need for heating. Two thirds of all homes electrically heated, 90% with electric cooktops, virtually 100% with electric ovens and about 94% with either electric, heat pump or solar + electric hot water. Highest level of household consumption in the country and close to double that of states like Vic where gas is common. So the network will also cope with far higher levels of household solar than it will in places like Vic.

Back to electric vehicles and all this is a bit of a problem. Ideally we need to be charging them 10am - 3pm on typical days and doing so in residential areas not the city CBD. That's not going to work unless we radically change society to the point that "9 to 5" is considered shift work and most people work nights. Not likely to happen anytime soon.

Electric vehicle charging can be done certainly but I'm not convinced it's going to work as a means of leveling out demand in a serious way. To some extent yes but there are limitations.

Midday charging could be done by putting the infrastructure in place and that's not ridiculously expensive. That doesn't get that solar power out of the suburbs however.

Price is one thing that could modify consumer behaviour and both Tas and the NT are already onto that one. Appropriate times will vary between regions due to other influences on the grid but using the Tas example:

10am - 4pm and 9pm - 7am = go for it.

4pm - 9pm and 7am - 10am = hand over your wallet.....

Some other states also have various schemes like that but in general they're not designed taking EV's and solar into account and are best fitted to the world as it existed 10+ years ago where all supply was from centralised generation.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> Does scamjets make those sonic booms?
> 
> Read that Concord was in use while Boeing's version was abandoned because Boeing designed theirs to go across the US continent while Concord goes over the ocean.
> 
> ...




By the way Iuutzu, they are called scram jets, not scam jets.

Scam jets, are those that some finance brokers use.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> so if you use electricity to create the hydrogen, then burn the hydrogen in a turbine to create electric, do you have any idea what percentage of the original electricity you would lose? probably at least 90%.
> 
> what do you mean, a Tesla power wall will power your kitchen cook top, and your lights, your toaster, your tv, vacuum, iPhone, computer etc etc pretty much everything in your house, and you can charge it with solar panels on your roof, no need for a truck to deliver a load of flammable gas to you.




Here is a project house in Thailand, that apparently uses a hydrogen fuel cell/ solar system.
I think the technology is moving along at a sensible pace, unlike Tesla, which is really trying to force the technology.

https://www.curbed.com/2016/1/22/10844376/solar-powered-hydrogen-home-thailand

An extract from the article:

_The main home and guest homes, topped with solar panels and green roofs for cooling and additional energy savings, generate power during the day, while also powering a hydrogen electrolyzer in a separate energy building on site, which splits hydrogen from water and stores the gas in a fuel cell. During the evening, or periods when the solar panels aren't generating electricity, the fuel cell then powers the compound. According to Jan-Justus Schmidt, an engineer working on the project, the electrolyzer achieves 80 percent efficiency, and oxygen and water are the only byproducts._


----------



## luutzu (5 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> By the way Iuutzu, they are called scram jets, not scam jets.
> 
> Scam jets, are those that some finance brokers use.




Speaking of finance brokers and scams, read on Reuter today how the hot Chinese property market is fueled by massive frauds and scams. From buyer, sellers, lenders, brokers, agents... 

So the gov't demand 30% deposit on purchases. With apartments going for some $US1M, that's a lot of dollars to put down upfront right? 

So buyers and sellers, working with their agents, valuers would fake the purchase price... say put the sales price at $1.3M. The lenders would lend $1M and opps, what money down?

But of course you would need some cash deposit... that's where the specialised lenders come in. For 2% per month, they lend buyers the deposit needed... once the bank cleared the fund, the excess goes back to repaying the enterprising company that loaned the deposit.

In Australia... I don't know how so many people could have some $600K in equity. I mean, most I know purchased 2 or 3 houses/apartments... and some are thinking of upgrading into a fourth property in areas that goes for at least $2.5M. Is it just me or is a million isn't that much money anymore?

Man, the coming GFC will make the first one look like a warm-up.


----------



## Wysiwyg (6 December 2017)

*London's iconic black cabs go electric*.
https://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/12/06/16/23/londons-iconic-black-cabs-go-electric

Can see Australian capital cities converting to electric taxi eventually.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> *London's iconic black cabs go electric*.
> https://www.9news.com.au/world/2017/12/06/16/23/londons-iconic-black-cabs-go-electric
> 
> Can see Australian capital cities converting to electric taxi eventually.




So purpose built battery operated taxi, can do about 130 city klm's, it just isn't going to cut it. IMO
London is condensed and not spread out like Aussie cities, 130klm's in Perth would be two pick up and drop offs from the airport.


----------



## Wysiwyg (7 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> So purpose built battery operated taxi, can do about 130 city klm's, it just isn't going to cut it. IMO
> London is condensed and not spread out like Aussie cities, 130klm's in Perth would be two pick up and drop offs from the airport.



Obviously the solution will be to have extended range and/or charging stations at the taxi ranks.


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Obviously the solution will be to have extended range and/or charging stations at the taxi ranks.




Tesla actually wants a share of the Tesla/Uber market.

Their goal is to have a driverless fleet of Taxi's, using a model similar to Uber, where any owner can put their car to work while they aren't using it.

As far as charging, driverless cars could charge themselves in between jobs.

Here is a Tesla designed automatic charger.


----------



## tech/a (7 December 2017)

Was talking with Nick Radge this morning.
He has one (Tesla) absolutely loves it.
Tells me its a completely different ride

With constant torque

Evidently for another $8k you can get their Auto pilot pack
which means the car basically drives itself.

Now he will have to make his Driver redundant!


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2017)

tech/a said:


> Evidently for another $8k you can get their Auto pilot pack
> which means the car basically drives itself.




Check this out, the guy in the drivers seat is only there for legal reasons, he doesn't touch any controls, and the car drives him from home to work.

This level of autopilot isn't unlocked yet, but its coming, regulations just need to catch up.

But Teslas will currently autopilot down freeways etc with the current autopilot pack.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2017)

Wysiwyg said:


> Obviously the solution will be to have extended range and/or charging stations at the taxi ranks.




As long as the client, isn't in a hurry.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> In the truck announcement, Elon said his "Mega chargers" for the trucks are going to have a guaranteed price of 7cents per KWH, because he is going to power them with Solar panels and Tesla power packs.
> 
> But, do you think Oil is going to stay cheap? electricity with its multiple sources will continue to be the cheapest energy source, (Australia's current issues are political, not engineering issues)
> 
> ...





Pepsi Co has pre ordered 100 Tesla trucks, I guess they like the Idea of running their bottles of drink around town a on zippy electric truck.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2017)

Smurf1976 said:


> So far as charging electric vehicles and off-peak loads are concerned the big issue there is that with so much solar PV being installed (mostly on house roofs but also businesses and large scale solar power stations) things are changing.
> 
> In SA already the true off-peak period on a mild day occurs around lunch time not in the middle of the night. That's already a problem in some areas with SA Power Networks (the electricity distributor in SA) changing the off-peak hot water timers (which in SA are simply a timer at the switchboard, no remote control as in NSW and Qld) to turn on in the middle of the day. A "solar sponge" they call it.
> 
> ...





Electric vehicles could work as a "solar sponge" as you say, adding to the flexibility of hot water systems to take peak loads, sure a lot of cars are away during the day, but a lot of cars would be home also during the day also, eg retired folk, people that work from home, shift workers, house wives/husbands, not to mention the charging at work places.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2017)

My guess is, if you were going to go battery electric vehicle, you would install a dedicated solar charger for the car only.
Then use subsidised power, from suppliers promoting battery electric, when not at home.


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is, if you were going to go battery electric vehicle, you would install a dedicated solar charger for the car only.
> Then use subsidised power, from suppliers promoting battery electric, when not at home.




What do you mean?


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is, if you were going to go battery electric vehicle, you would install a dedicated solar charger for the car only.
> Then use subsidised power, from suppliers promoting battery electric, when not at home.




No real need to over think it with dedicated chargers etc, You just plug the car into you home power supply and charge it, if you want solar you get a normal solar system and just charge the car during the day, if you want a battery you just add a battery to you solar system.

This Guy shows how all three work seamlessly together on the Tesla app.

Watch at the 2.30 Mark, and you will see his car charging using solar / battery, with the fluctuations being either drawn from or distributed to the grid.


----------



## orr (21 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


>





The cloned love child of Marty Feldman and Roman Polanski is worth the ticket of admmission .

Not that far back I was a close associate of an employee  of Ford Australia. He worked in of their more profitable  sectors, Finiance... 
To wit...
If my fuel cost is currently 'X' and I can utilise that expeadiataed cost against the purchase price of a new vehicle in repayments, dependent  on my,circumstances i.e,  input costs; grid V solar (or whatever). The less you spend on fuel the more you can spend on the purchace price of the  car/vehical.....
What is it that financiaL insto's  make a quid out of again?

excuse me spelll check is not wanking


----------



## basilio (22 December 2017)

Yes Orr it's bit sad when spell check fails. I have to rely on uncertain memory as well..

But back to electic cars.  This story is *exciting.* * Double* the range of electric batteries with a change in Cathodes on Lithium iron batteries ?


*A Breakthrough Energy Storage Discovery For Electric Vehicles*
Did you know that it’s possible to double the range of today’s electric vehicles? No, really! The current crop of  lithium-ion batteries use just half of their theoretical capacity, so there is much room for improvement.

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/12/19/death-oil-scientists-eyeball-2x-ev-battery-range/


----------



## basilio (22 December 2017)

That clean technica site is excellent. There is a great article on a new electric van project that also incorporates solar charging and energy managment across a fleet of vans.  Well worth a read. 

The system is operational.


*Chanje Electric Van = Serious Fleet Industry Game Changer (CleanTechnica Review, Part 1)*

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December 19th, 2017 by *Nicolas Zart* 



	

		
			
		

		
	
Over at _CleanTechnica_, we’re always excited to see something new, something smart, and something designed clean from the ground up. Enter center stage, the Chanje electric van. The Chanje electric van is a serious fleet industry game changer in more ways than seems obvious.

We caught more than a glimpse at the Los Angeles Auto Show. We got a test drive of the Chanje electric van and conducted a great interview with Chanje’s Joerg Sommer, COO, and Ian Televik, Director of Marketing. We can safely say that the Chanje is a game changer for the fleet industry.

Quick specs:



70kWh battery pack
100-mile range (with half payload onboard) Note: Chanje tested with a half payload. The average customer starts with a full van at the beginning of their route and ends with an empty van at the end. A half payload is an average for van, similar to the EPA approach for passenger cars.
564 lb-ft torque
198 hp
Designed as an EV from the ground up

*Chanje is A Serious Fleet Industry Game Changer*
The Chanje electric van will meet the needs of many fleet owners. It will also help them transition efficiently into the electric mobility game. And the Chanje will morph into various platforms, including a shuttle bus and a people mover. I can see it as the electric answer for our friend’s family of 7 children needs as well.




Before we go on, note that there are few vehicle makers that design EVs from scratch, while others convert regular vehicles to electric drive. A newer concept is that of “one platform fits all” drivetrains where manufacturers can adjust to market demands. All have pros and cons.

As far as the Chanje is concerned, the EV was designed electric from the ground up. Chanje wanted to bring a vehicle to the market that answers the modern needs of fleet owners. Simply put, yesterday’s technology can’t meet fleet owners’ budgets anymore. Higher gas costs and diesel maintenance make it harder for them to keep profits at a healthy level. In order to help fleet owners, a few manufacturers have converted their existing platforms to electrify the vehicles. Chanje built an electric van to meet those needs head-on, bypassing any needs to convert and fiddle with a gasoline van.

Designed with high-volume production in mind, it will start production next year with small, mid, and large size fleet options.
https://cleantechnica.com/2017/12/1...try-game-changer-cleantechnica-review-part-1/


----------



## sptrawler (28 December 2017)

Elon is starting to sound a bit like a CEO, of a struggling company, long on promises and short on outcomes.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news....html?trackLink=SMH0?trackLink=SMH0?ffref=smh

the worrying part of the article is this:
_But Tesla’s primary focus for now is boosting production of its Model 3, which had over 500,000 pre-orders yet delivered just 220 models last quarter. It comes on the back of Tesla’s biggest ever quarterly loss announcement but it plans to ramp up production of the small sedan to 5000 units per month by March next year._
I will be suprised, if Tesla aren't overtaken by mainstream manufacturers, who can supply the product.
Even if they ramp up production to 5,000 per month, it is still a long time to wait for a car.
It will be a shame if he disappears, without full filling the promise, but he has done a lot for the electrification of the auto industry.


----------



## luutzu (28 December 2017)

Value Collector said:


> Check this out, the guy in the drivers seat is only there for legal reasons, he doesn't touch any controls, and the car drives him from home to work.
> 
> This level of autopilot isn't unlocked yet, but its coming, regulations just need to catch up.
> 
> But Teslas will currently autopilot down freeways etc with the current autopilot pack.





What if the map is outdated? Would it auto-pilot off a cliff?

Or a parking sign state can't park at x to y hours. Can it read and detect that?

Or the nearest car park charges $20 per hour while a few blocks down charges mate's rate?

If these issues are solved, I still don't see large adoption of such cars though. I mean, Taxi services would be so cheap and widely available that most people would just rent/hire them instead of buying a Tesla or a smart car for their daily travel to work.

It would more likely reduced the number of car ownership rather than increasing it I reckon.


----------



## luutzu (28 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Elon is starting to sound a bit like a CEO, of a struggling company, long on promises and short on outcomes.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news....html?trackLink=SMH0?trackLink=SMH0?ffref=smh
> 
> ...




He's a bit like that guy that founded Netscape, remember Netscape?

It was a far superior web browser than Microsoft's IE, but IE was free and comes with all its Windows OS, even the cracked ones ... I remember hating IE because it's clunky but soon enough got used to the freebies. Within a year or two, IE became pretty good and Netscape kinda disappear.

That same guy founded a total of 3 companies worth, at one time or other, over $1Billion. 

He was smart, of course. But he wasn't an IT or tech genius. Just a savvy manager and salesman who bring together talented geniuses to work on a bigbang idea... packaged and sale it to investors... made a big name for himself and buy a couple of $100M yachts and things.

The thing I don't like about Musk, and this might not be his fault, more of the media's attribution of him... is that he's made out to be some sort of tech genius. Not just IT tech, but rocket-science, electrical engineer, car designer/manufacturer etc. etc. 

I mean, his Tesla battery pack for Adelaide are all made by Panasonic. He practically just put a badge on it. That's like Dell computers or Nike shoes when he started out. 

It's not a bad thing, and it does take smarts to pull it off. So credit for that. But it's not really genius at work you know. Not the Nicola Tesla or Thomas Edison kind of genius... just your typical modern-day CEO marketing manager. I mean, that's not even on the level of Bill Gates, and Gates is no technologist, not by a long shot. Gates is very good at taking bits and pieces from others, put it together and flog it off as his own. 

That's car-wrecker kind of smarts, not Henry Ford or Alfred S Sloan kind of ingenuity.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> I will be suprised, if Tesla aren't overtaken by mainstream manufacturers, who can supply the product.




As with anything, no matter how good some alternative is the product you'll actually buy is one that's available.

Lots of things like that over the years where some technically superior idea lost out because the competition actually had a product available for immediate delivery to consumers.  



> It will be a shame if he disappears, without full filling the promise, but he has done a lot for the electrification of the auto industry.




The automotive industry sure needed a shakeup and thankfully he's managed to go at least some way to achieving that.

If certain manufacturers had their way we'd still have cars using 18 litres / 100 km (that was in fact the average for new cars in the US a generation ago), with a 12 month warranty which needed a service every 5,000 km at most, a new exhaust every 2 or 3 years and an engine rebuild after 160,000 km. The Japanese shook the industry up with quality and put a stop to that sort of nonsense and now the likes of Tesla are doing it with the means of making it move.

Interesting times certainly.


----------



## Value Collector (29 December 2017)

luutzu said:


> What if the map is outdated? Would it auto-pilot off a cliff?
> 
> Or a parking sign state can't park at x to y hours. Can it read and detect that?
> 
> ...



Tesla cars use swarm learning, so as things change the cars adapt to the changing situation and pass the knowledge on to the rest of the cars.

Tesla would love having the a large chunk of a future car pooling network, yes with a large adoption there would be less cars, but the cars that do exist would be doing more miles and therefore replacement cycles would be shorter.


----------



## Value Collector (29 December 2017)

sptrawler said:


> Elon is starting to sound a bit like a CEO, of a struggling company, long on promises and short on outcomes.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news....html?trackLink=SMH0?trackLink=SMH0?ffref=smh
> 
> ...




They are ramping up to 20,000 cars per month by mid 2018, you can’t go from 0 cars per month to 20,000 cars per month in a week when you are building you factory from scratch.

Also you can’t expect to be reporting profits in every quarter when you are building and ramping up 2 factories


----------



## tech/a (29 December 2017)

Remote control People moving Drones.
That's the future of transport.
Not on the ground.


----------



## CanOz (29 December 2017)

tech/a said:


> Remote control People moving Drones.
> That's the future of transport.
> Not on the ground.




Not in my lifetime, robotic and drone technology is no where near practical applications. Imagine the accidents...self driving cars yes. Look how long that’s taking to roll out. The big car manufacturers are still clever lobbyists....that’s about it.


----------



## tech/a (29 December 2017)

Don't know Can 
They reckon Boeing can fly the Dreamliner manually.
The yanks attack anything they don't want walking or driving with Drones.

Want to see something *REALLY SCARY!!*


----------



## CanOz (29 December 2017)

tech/a said:


> Don't know Can
> 
> 
> Want to see something *REALLY SCARY!!*





That is actually a movie clip and whilst it may not be far away from possibility it is still along way away from becoming reality. Just like bitcoin, just like drone hover craft, just like driver less cars. The thing you keep forgetting is that we've not become any better at ledgslating innovation and yet we've become better at innovation....there's a gap there. In some cases this is a good thing....


----------



## CanOz (29 December 2017)

The other thing worth mentioning is that I work with roughly 100 robots daily and I still see major gaps in perfecting them for manufacturing let alone critical applications in daily use.

We can't get electric vehicles in Australia at a reasonable price, the big manufacturers lag in electric vehicle production, so at the end of the day it's the military that will benefit from the innovation because they truly embrace it as an edge....


----------



## tech/a (29 December 2017)

Yep
Exciting times


----------



## willy1111 (29 December 2017)

CanOz said:


> Not in my lifetime, robotic and drone technology is no where near practical applications. Imagine the accidents...self driving cars yes. Look how long that’s taking to roll out. The big car manufacturers are still clever lobbyists....that’s about it.




Google Dubai airport drone taxi

They have already tested a protype. 

Expect to have it up and running in next 5 years and expect 25% of Dubai transport to be done this way within 12 years.


----------



## Tisme (30 December 2017)

Autonomous trucks already operating at BHP and RIO. Also robo-drills


----------



## sptrawler (5 January 2018)

Value Collector said:


> They are ramping up to 20,000 cars per month by mid 2018, you can’t go from 0 cars per month to 20,000 cars per month in a week when you are building you factory from scratch.
> 
> Also you can’t expect to be reporting profits in every quarter when you are building and ramping up 2 factories




Doesn't sound like 20,000 per month, by mid 2018, according to this report.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/inno...ise-with-crucial-model-3-20180104-h0djl6.html

The guy is under the pump, but a lot of it is self induced, the press should be more forgiving.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 January 2018)

Not a car, but ...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...nger-flights-in-australia-to-rottnest/9304424


----------



## Value Collector (5 January 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Doesn't sound like 20,000 per month, by mid 2018, according to this report.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/business/inno...ise-with-crucial-model-3-20180104-h0djl6.html
> 
> The guy is under the pump, but a lot of it is self induced, the press should be more forgiving.



Meh, so ramp is is slower than expected, no biggy, the fact is they are ramping up though.


----------



## sptrawler (12 January 2018)

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...ml?trackLink=SMH0?trackLink=SMH0?ffref=theage

Interesting comments from Volvo boss.


----------



## sptrawler (13 January 2018)

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/hyundai--hydrogen-is-the--ultimate-solution--116846.html

Now all that is needed is the oil companies to get on board, with H2 production, then bingo.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2018)

Electric cars are breaking our roads ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...ralia-roads-reform-road-user-charging/9235564


----------



## Zero Sum Game (15 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Electric cars are breaking our roads ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...ralia-roads-reform-road-user-charging/9235564



In that article:

The Federal Government is looking at ways to more closely link how people use the roads with what they pay.

Mr Fletcher will soon announce the terms of reference of the formal review into this concept, known as "road pricing" or "road user charging", and similar trials for trucks are earmarked for 2018.

The ultimate solution might link how much drivers pay to their car's GPS tracker. Instead of a rough fuel-based taxation method, the result would be accurate to the metre: the further you drive, the more tax you pay.

n a trial in the US state of Oregon, all drivers were charged one-and-a-half US cents per mile — no matter how fuel efficient their car was.

....

Bugger it. I'm going to sell my car. Go on the dole. No need to drive.


----------



## Tisme (15 January 2018)

I think a broader consequence of a reduction in fuel consumption will be the reduction in bitumen production and that's going to knock on to less roads, less quarries, etc. What do they do with the petroleum by products like petrol itself in that situation ... power stations?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 January 2018)

Tisme said:


> I think a broader consequence of a reduction in fuel consumption will be the reduction in bitumen production and that's going to knock on to less roads, less quarries, etc. What do they do with the petroleum by products like petrol itself in that situation ... power stations?




Fertilisers, plastics ?


----------



## Joules MM1 (15 January 2018)

*Reuters Top News*‏Verified account @*Reuters* 1h1 hour ago

Ford ups electric vehicle plans to $11 billion by 2022: executive

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...=topNews&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social


----------



## Value Collector (15 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Electric cars are breaking our roads ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...ralia-roads-reform-road-user-charging/9235564




I think thats a pretty easy fix, once electric cars hit a certain number on the road the taxes just need to be changed to include them.

But, electric cars also provide financial and non financial benefits to other Australia, which may be worth a lot more than the road tax.

For example

1, Reduced demand for oil based fuel reduces the cost of fuel for other users.
2, Lower air pollution in our cities improves health and lowers the health care costs
3, Using Australian sourced fuel eg Coal, gas and renewables increases fuel security and lowers the trade deficit compared to imported fuels.

these and other benefits may totally offset the 50% lower road tax paid, and may at least justify not taxing the electric car until it becomes a major user of the roads.


----------



## Joules MM1 (16 January 2018)

stuff happening now


----------



## Joules MM1 (16 January 2018)

half a milliwatt might not seem much unless its the exoskeleton suit of a robot coming to kill you....or a can opener.....


----------



## orr (17 January 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I think thats a pretty easy fix, once electric cars hit a certain number on the road the taxes just need to be changed to include them.
> 
> But, electric cars also provide financial and non financial benefits to other Australia, which may be worth a lot more than the road tax.
> 
> ...




Nuance Collector, Imagine how all the facts that you've quoted will play out in the visceral pressure cooker of the easily bought comments of the Shock Jockery by aready entrenched players who are set to lose.
The importance of cubic inches of displacment to ones thinking are inversely proportional an IQ's capacity to imagine National betterment....


----------



## Value Collector (17 January 2018)

orr said:


> Nuance Collector, Imagine how all the facts that you've quoted will play out in the visceral pressure cooker of the easily bought comments of the Shock Jockery by aready entrenched players who are set to lose.
> The importance of cubic inches of displacment to ones thinking are inversely proportional an IQ's capacity to imagine National betterment....




If owners of petrol cars complain that electric vehicle owners get away with paying 50% less to cover road costs.

Maybe we should point out that currently petrol car owners are not covering any of the costs related to the air pollution they are generating and disposing of into the local environment for free that contributes to higher health care costs.

those higher health care costs are just as real as the road funding costs.

I wonder how they would react to an extra tax put onto fuel sales to cover health care costs, I don't think they would like it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 January 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe we should point out that currently petrol car owners are not covering any of the costs related to the air pollution they are generating and disposing of into the local environment for free that contributes to higher health care costs.



I'm no fan of petrol but to be fair there's a pretty substantial tax on the stuff which raises far more revenue that that used to maintain roads. So it could reasonably be argued that everyone who buys petrol is paying at least part of the costs it imposes on society.

At $175 per tonne of CO2 (not including GST on the excise) the rate of tax on petrol at present is already far higher than anyone seriously proposes apply to coal or gas.


----------



## Value Collector (17 January 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm no fan of petrol but to be fair there's a pretty substantial tax on the stuff which raises far more revenue that that used to maintain roads.




Not according to the article posted by Sir Rump that I was commenting on.

According to that article the Fuel excise only covers a little under 50% of roads expenditure.



> At $175 per tonne of CO2 (not including GST on the excise) the rate of tax on petrol at present is already far higher than anyone seriously proposes apply to coal or gas.




The fuel excise is used to cover the roads being maintained and built.

Any carbon tax would be in addition to the fuel excise, So if petrol owners wanted the system to be fair, they should be covering all three separate issues.

1, there part of the road maintenance
2, there part of the health care costs
3, their C02 emissions. 

If only coal has a carbon tax, then that is a tax being paid by EV owners that petrol cars are avoiding.


----------



## Junior (17 January 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Not according to the article posted by Sir Rump that I was commenting on.
> 
> According to that article the Fuel excise only covers a little under 50% of roads expenditure.
> 
> ...




Are there not other taxes associated with car ownership?   Registration, toll roads, speeding fines etc.


----------



## Value Collector (17 January 2018)

Junior said:


> Are there not other taxes associated with car ownership?   Registration, toll roads, speeding fines etc.




Yes they make up the other 50% of road funding, but Electric vehicles would be paying those,

The only vehicle associated tax that Electric vehicles currently avoid paying is the fuel excise, which according to the article posted makes up about 50% of the road funding, the rest of the road funding comes from rego, stamp duty, license fees and other stuff


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## Smurf1976 (17 January 2018)

I’m no expert on road funding so I could well be wrong but my understanding is that a lot of it goes into general revenue.

Local roads are funded by councils (ratepayers) and they don’t get the $ from fuel excise.

Some other roads are funded by the states. They get registration, traffic fines etc but not excuse.

So of the $16 billion or so that is collected as fuel excise that’s only funding roads to the extent that the Australian government is spending it.

A quick Google search finds that infrastructure spending has ranged from $3.2 to $7.2 billion a year over the past decade or so and that 78% of that is on roads. That’s a very long way short of what’s collected as fuel excise.

Someone might have better figures than I’ve found, I might be missing something, but I can’t find anything to show that the Australian Government is spending all $16 billion a year on roads at least not consistently.

It was once the case that fuel excise was linked directly to road funding but that was ended decades ago so it’s a political decision how it gets spent.


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## Value Collector (17 January 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I’m no expert on road funding .




Nor am I, but I think you missed something



> Local roads are funded by councils (ratepayers) and they don’t get the $ from fuel excise.




That might be the "other sources", mentioned in the graph.



> Some other roads are funded by the states. They get registration, traffic fines etc but not excuse.
> 
> So of the $16 billion or so that is collected as fuel excise that’s only funding roads to the extent that the Australian government is spending it.
> 
> ...




 it's my understanding that the fuel excise (or some portion of it) is handed over to the states, So it's not just funding federal roads, but the state spending also.

this is from wikipedia


> The states used to levy fuel franchise fees until the High Court of Australia in _Ha v New South Wales_ (1997) ruled that a licence fee based on the value of tobacco was unconstitutional, as it was an excise tax that only the Commonwealth can levy. The ruling brought into doubt the revenues of the states. *In consequence, the federal government introduced a fuel excise tax and gave the revenue to the states*.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2018)

Jaguar I-Pace. Electric vehicle.


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## SirRumpole (22 January 2018)

Something that will interest a few people here no doubt.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-22/sanjeev-gupta-plan-to-revive-car-making-at-holden-site/9348030


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## Smurf1976 (22 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Something that will interest a few people here no doubt.



This man seems to actually have a vision for the future.

Not much more to say really but he's showing the deficiencies in many others pretty clearly if he can make things work (Eg Whyalla steelworks) that others can't.

Let's hope something comes from his latest ideas.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 January 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> This man seems to actually have a vision for the future.
> 
> Not much more to say really but he's showing the deficiencies in many others pretty clearly if he can make things work (Eg Whyalla steelworks) that others can't.
> 
> Let's hope something comes from his latest ideas.




VC has just cancelled his Tesla order.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> VC has just cancelled his Tesla order.




No, I want my model 3, asap.


----------



## sptrawler (26 January 2018)

Value Collector said:


> No, I want my model 3, asap.




I wouldn't hold my breath, if I was you VC, according to this report they are still making the batteries by hand for the model 3.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/25/tesla-employees-say-gigafactory-problems-worse-than-known.html


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## CanOz (26 January 2018)

Was in noosa this week with the family and had the pleasure of a drive around in a brand new 75 model s. Tesla has me hooked....once we get a house with a large enough garage I'll be getting one. Really hoping for a slightly used P85D.


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## Value Collector (29 January 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath, if I was you VC, according to this report they are still making the batteries by hand for the model 3.
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/25/tesla-employees-say-gigafactory-problems-worse-than-known.html




As I said, when you are building two mega factories from the ground up, expect delays.


----------



## qldfrog (29 January 2018)

finished the biography of Musk refered before;
interesting.I do not like the man but have respect for his will.and the end result, too many industries are asleep and need a startup mojo; I believe he will succeeed in his rocket on mars and telsa expansion, the rest..well who really cares


----------



## Value Collector (30 January 2018)

qldfrog said:


> finished the biography of Musk refered before;
> interesting.I do not like the man but have respect for his will.and the end result, too many industries are asleep and need a startup mojo; I believe he will succeeed in his rocket on mars and telsa expansion, the rest..well who really cares




I recently finished the book also, 

My take away was he certainly isn’t a back seat driver as some on this forum have suggested, he has lead the businesses from the front, and put every thing he has both financially and personal effort wise into making them successful.

I certainly wouldn’t bet against the man, he has my respect.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 January 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I certainly wouldn’t bet against the man, he has my respect.




He delivered the SA battery on time, so you have to believe that he's got what it takes to do whatever he wants.


----------



## Value Collector (31 January 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> He delivered the SA battery on time, so you have to believe that he's got what it takes to do whatever he wants.




he is notorious for over promising time frames, but he does get the stuff done, even if it is behind schedule sometimes.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2018)

Some more discussion on electric vehicles.

*The big problem with electric vehicle resale prices compared to petrol, diesel and hybrid cars*

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...rice-compared-to-petrol-diesel-hybrid/9380186


----------



## sptrawler (12 February 2018)

sptrawler said:


> https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/hyundai--hydrogen-is-the--ultimate-solution--116846.html
> 
> Now all that is needed is the oil companies to get on board, with H2 production, then bingo.




As I have said on numerous oocasions, hydrogen is the answer to the fuel problem, it only takes the ball to start rolling. Sounds like S.A may be the first to really give it a push along, makes absolute sense, it could actually drive a resurgence in S.A industry.
If the Federal Government gets on board, Australia could be the first Country to adopt H2 electric vehicles en mass. Now that would put us on the map.IMO
It may even generate another car industry in Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-12/hydrogen-power-plant-port-lincoln/9422022


_One of the largest green hydrogen plants in the world will be built in South Australia.

The $117.5 million plant to be constructed near Port Lincoln will use surplus wind and solar power to produce hydrogen, which will power a 10-megawatt gas turbine and five-megawatt hydrogen fuel cell to supply power to the grid.

The ability to store renewables means cheaper power that can be accessed around the clock, SA Energy Minister Tom Koutsantonis said.

"Hydrogen also offers an opportunity to create a new industry in South Australia where we can export our sun and wind resources to the world," Mr Koutsantonis said.

German firm Thyssenkrupp will partner with Australian company Hydrogen Utility to deliver the project.

It will be partly funded by a $4.7 million grant and $7.5 million loan from the state government's renewable technology fund.

Hydrogen Utility's CEO Attilio Pigneri said the plant would have the ability to help stabilise the national grid along with acting as a fast frequency response to support new solar plants being developed on the Eyre Peninsula._


----------



## CanOz (12 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Some more discussion on electric vehicles.
> 
> *The big problem with electric vehicle resale prices compared to petrol, diesel and hybrid cars*
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...rice-compared-to-petrol-diesel-hybrid/9380186





Tesla being the exception....unfortunately thier used vehicles prices are stubbornly high....


----------



## Junior (13 February 2018)

CanOz said:


> Tesla being the exception....unfortunately thier used vehicles prices are stubbornly high....




I feel like resale values will stabilise once EVs comprise a sizeable %% of total vehicles on the road and have a track record of performing over a long period of time....they are still in their infancy.


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## Smurf1976 (13 February 2018)

What was the resale value of a 2 year old PC back in the 1980's or 90's? What was the resale value of even a 1 year old mobile phone 20 years ago?

In both cases virtually worthless since the technology was still evolving and rapidly surpassing the performance of current models.

Go forward to today and for the vast majority of users existing PC's are as good as it's going to get with the performance of the hardware no longer a limiting factor in the majority of real world applications. Likewise nobody in 2018 assesses a mobile phone in terms of how well it makes phone calls since they all do that well and even with smart phones "improvements" are increasingly about fashion rather than function.

Once it's a given that all electric cars have 500+ km range, all use the same charging sockets and all can easily exceed the legal speed limit going up hill I've no doubt that the resale value issue will go away. In the meantime it's the same as any new technology.


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2018)

Tesla X Vs Penis Substitute showdown


----------



## Tisme (13 February 2018)




----------



## Tisme (13 February 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Great review.
> 
> I really miss that oaf and the other two.




You can watch them on Grand Tour


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2018)

Tisme said:


> You can watch them on Grand Tour




Not with my miniscule data allowance.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 February 2018)

Tisme said:


>





Judge throws out Musk's libel case against Top Gear.

https://www.wired.com/2012/02/tesla-vs-top-gear/


----------



## Joules MM1 (28 February 2018)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...979d&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

Shanghai-based Nio, formerly known as NextEV, is among the first of a raft of Chinese electric vehicle firms to launch a production vehicle, with many so far only showing concept cars.
It launched sales of its first mass production car - the ES8 pure-electric, seven-seat sport-utility vehicle in December, at about half the price of American peer Tesla’s Model X. It has also vowed to bring an autonomous electric car to the U.S. market by 2020.


----------



## Joules MM1 (7 March 2018)

* A Dutch company unveiled a flying car at the Geneva Motor Show *
Technology 5 hours ago
PAL-V, a company based in the Netherlands, unveiled its first production model of the PAL-V Liberty at the 2018 Geneva Motor Show. The vehicle is a three-wheeled, two-seat combination of a car and gyroplane.

https://twitter.com/i/moments/971081291457318912


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2018)

Volkswagen Have unveiled a new electric car concept



> VOLKSWAGEN has committed to spend $54 billion over the next four years developing technology that will reduce traffic congestion and pollution.








http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...r/news-story/442e5910c763462c3c91420b0add2f20


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## Wysiwyg (8 March 2018)

> Toyota has confirmed it plans to offer a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle in the Australian market.
> 
> Kiyotake Ise, the company’s president of advanced research and development, told an international media conference in Tokyo that Australia was one of several markets earmarked for eventual sales of the Mirai fuel-cell vehicle.
> 
> ...




This was back in October last year. All we need is more refuelling stations but the refuelling stations need FCV's. Chicken and egg at the moment.


----------



## sptrawler (8 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> This was back in October last year. All we need is more refuelling stations but the refuelling stations need FCV's. Chicken and egg at the moment.




Have a read of posts #297, 298 of this thread, I think hydrogen will end up being the fuel of choice, but it is a long way off.
First we need a huge increase in renewable energy, this will happen, but it will take a long time.

ATM batteries will be the goto source of power for cars, as they are easily manufactured and installed. 
The problem with them long term is four fold. 
They require raw materials, which are finite. 
There is an issue with left over waste, when the battery is depleted, there is a degree of recycling but there will still be chemical waste.
The energy density of batteries isn't great, it is improving, but it is still a lot less than oil and H2.
The charge time is an ongoing problem for batteries, this is also improving and maybe a capacitor/battery hybrid will eventuate, until then charge time will always be an achilles heel.


----------



## explod (8 March 2018)

In the cities highways are becoming clogged and no amount of expansion can keep up or stop the day when we have a total jam.

Busses, trains and more room for bike tracks are perhaps the immediate solution.  Longer term we are going to be washed and blown away.  The latter is not a prediction, but well underreported and it is happening now


----------



## sptrawler (8 March 2018)

explod said:


> In the cities highways are becoming clogged and no amount of expansion can keep up or stop the day when we have a total jam.
> 
> Busses, trains and more room for bike tracks are perhaps the immediate solution.  Longer term we are going to be washed and blown away.  The latter is not a prediction, but well underreported and it is happening now




Yep, the wife and I have bought a couple of electric bikes, absolutely brilliant. IMO
Now we have eight bikes, two general purpose, two serious mountain bikes, two electric bikes and two general purpose at the holiday home.
Thankfully there is no rego involved.


----------



## luutzu (8 March 2018)

explod said:


> In the cities highways are becoming clogged and no amount of expansion can keep up or stop the day when we have a total jam.
> 
> Busses, trains and more room for bike tracks are perhaps the immediate solution.  Longer term we are going to be washed and blown away.  The latter is not a prediction, but well underreported and it is happening now




That's a problem for most of us. For the Department of the Treasury it's an opportunity called "Congestion Tax".


----------



## Wysiwyg (8 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The energy density of batteries isn't great, it is improving, but it is still a lot less than oil and H2.
> The charge time is an ongoing problem for batteries, this is also improving and maybe a capacitor/battery hybrid will eventuate, until then charge time will always be an achilles heel.



Thanks, I watched the video for Hyundai and read the article form Volvo. I don't understand how the technology isn't quite there yet but there are cars being produced with fuel cells now. It is either ready now or the cars with fuel cells are test dummy models.


----------



## sptrawler (8 March 2018)

Wysiwyg said:


> Thanks, I watched the video for Hyundai and read the article form Volvo. I don't understand how the technology isn't quite there yet but there are cars being produced with fuel cells now. It is either ready now or the cars with fuel cells are test dummy models.




The technology is there, but the fuel cells use platinum which is expensive, so the research is focused on finding a substitute.

It is a bit like batteries, they are trying to find more energy density and a faster charge rate.

Hydrogen fuel cells have the energy density and are quick to fill, but are expensive to produce.
Hydrogen costs heaps to make, unless you have excess renewable energy to make it. But it has the energy density a 5kg bottle of hydrogen will take you approx 600klm, and take you 3 minutes to fill.

That is why S.A has stumbled into the box seat, they blew their feet off by being too aggressive with renewable energy adoption.
But because they can rely on the interconnected grid, and the push toward renewables which include subsidies, they can capitalise on harnessing the free off peak generation to make hydrogen.

It really is a bit of a windfall for S.A, but to their credit 'necessity is the mother of invention', and they certainly have found the silver lining, to the electrical cloud that hung over their State.

IMO if they keep on this track of installing wind farms, solar farms and adjoined hydrogen plants, they will be, within 10years, the beacon of the future.

Lucky they have the Eastern State Interconnected Grid, to carry them through this phase and W.A's GST to pay for the renewables.IMO
The other advantage of hydrogen is the uses are much greater, than pumped hydro, which can only be used to make electricity at the source.

Like I've said on many occassions, it is only my humble opinion and many have poo pahed it in the past.


----------



## Junior (9 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> That's a problem for most of us. For the Department of the Treasury it's an opportunity called "Congestion Tax".




Now and then we have to hear these moronic discussions around a 'congestion tax'.  The idea being that more people will use public transport or carpool.  The people discussing this have clearly not tried to catch a train or tram in Melbourne recently.  You literally can't get on in peak a lot of the time, and when you do manage to squeeze onto a tram on a hot day....it is rancid, BO, homeless guys stinking like booze etc.

You can't pack a million people into a city in the space of 10 years, invest f all in infrastructure and then tax people for trying to get from A to B.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 March 2018)

Junior said:


> You can't pack a million people into a city in the space of 10 years, invest f all in infrastructure and then tax people for trying to get from A to B.




They are treating the symptoms of rapid population group rather than the cause.


----------



## luutzu (9 March 2018)

Junior said:


> Now and then we have to hear these moronic discussions around a 'congestion tax'.  The idea being that more people will use public transport or carpool.  The people discussing this have clearly not tried to catch a train or tram in Melbourne recently.  You literally can't get on in peak a lot of the time, and when you do manage to squeeze onto a tram on a hot day....it is rancid, BO, homeless guys stinking like booze etc.
> 
> You can't pack a million people into a city in the space of 10 years, invest f all in infrastructure and then tax people for trying to get from A to B.




Yea, it take real balls to invest nothing from the revenue collected... then turn around and tax more for the problem they caused.


----------



## brty (10 March 2018)

sptrawler, you keep talking about the hydrogen revolution, but I can see a couple of simple reasons why it will not occur here...

1. "Hydrogen fuel prices range from $12.85 to more than $16 per kilogram (kg), but the most common price is $13.99 per kg"
This is in California, where the cost to install a Hydrogen pump (including tank) is upward of $1.5m. All dollars are $US, so add probably 33% for here.

2. Electricity in California costs about 15-16c/Kwh for the retail customer.

3. Currently the Toyota Mirai retailed for $US57,000 in 2015, is now US$78,140 in Germany(before VAT) and has world wide sales of 5,300 units since 2015 (up to Dec '17)

Meanwhile in EV sales were over 1.1m in 2017, with the proportion of BEVs growing over hybrids to 61% of all EVs.
BEVs have economies of scale still coming, plus ongoing costs being much cheaper than Hydrogen costs. While BEVs will need battery replacements at some mileage, FCVs will need fuel stack changes and possibly metal pipe and tank changes as well.

For me the fuel for an EV will be mostly free as most use of a car is local. I have solar panels that have already paid for themselves, many people will be in a similar situation, so a high upfront cost will be offset by much lower running costs. FCVs will have high running costs relative to EVs, with an initial price tag seemingly quite high.


----------



## Value Collector (10 March 2018)

It’s a Myth that electric vehicle charging time is a problem.

1, you charge it at home while it’s parked, so you start each day with a full charge, so you never need to waste time going to a petrol station, saving about 10 - 20mins a week.

2, a full charge will get you about 4.5 hours of driving, and a 15min charge will get you another 2 hours, not many people will drive 6.5hours with out having at least a 15min break.

Most people stop for breaks (toilet, food, stretching, fuel) at least every 3hours for at least 15 a 20mins, with that drive rest cycle you could drive all day.

Your electric car range matches your biological range of you and your passenegers if you just plug it in every time you stop for a break.


----------



## Joules MM1 (11 March 2018)

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-a...rtscars-blur-the-need-for-speed-idUKKCN1GJ2GK
"GENEVA (Reuters) - Established sports car brands such as Porsche and Lamborghini are losing the speed crown to lesser-known rivals offering electric supercars boasting record acceleration.


An e-bike that broke the record for longest distance covered on a single charge will be launched globally. More video: http://reut.rs/2EanOK8


----------



## Joules MM1 (11 March 2018)

Audi gegen Tesla - wer gewinnt das Drag Race? Seht zu, wie Jeremy Clarkson sich im Tesla gegen den Audi duelliert. Viel Spaß beim Tesla Drag Race!


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2018)

brty said:


> sptrawler, you keep talking about the hydrogen revolution, but I can see a couple of simple reasons why it will not occur here...
> 
> 1. "Hydrogen fuel prices range from $12.85 to more than $16 per kilogram (kg), but the most common price is $13.99 per kg"
> This is in California, where the cost to install a Hydrogen pump (including tank) is upward of $1.5m. All dollars are $US, so add probably 33% for here.
> ...




I don't dissagree with you and I have stated, hydrogen is 30 to 50 years away, from being the ultimate solution.
Batteries will be the stop gap solution, but can you imagine the toxic residue problem, in 50 years. Also don't you think there will be a resource problem? Or do you think we will find a way to produce perpetual motion, by recycling batteries that give no waste and just as much energy as the original.
Best of luck with that idea.IMO


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2018)

brty said:


> sptrawler, you keep talking about the hydrogen revolution, but I can see a couple of simple reasons why it will not occur here...
> 
> 1. "Hydrogen fuel prices range from $12.85 to more than $16 per kilogram (kg), but the most common price is $13.99 per kg"
> This is in California, where the cost to install a Hydrogen pump (including tank) is upward of $1.5m. All dollars are $US, so add probably 33% for here.
> ...




The other issue, that I find amusing is, everyone keeps talking money to produce hydrogen.
The gfc proved money is just numbers on spreadsheets, if it is only a money issue, that is a minor problem. Lol


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 March 2018)

explod said:


> we are going to be washed and blown away.  The latter is not a prediction, but well underreported and it is happening now



People are being washed and blown away in major cities?

Which cities?


----------



## SirRumpole (11 March 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> People are being washed and blown away in major cities?
> 
> Which cities?




This for one.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...damage-properties-in-north-queensland/9469182


----------



## Joules MM1 (11 March 2018)

"..his tunneling startup, Boring Co., will prioritize pedestrians and cyclists in its plan. The system “*will still transport cars but only after all personalized mass transit* needs are met" Musk said.

video

https://twitter.com/i/moments/972579973704966144?lang=en


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2018)

Joules MM1 said:


> "..his tunneling startup, Boring Co., will prioritize pedestrians and cyclists in its plan. The system “*will still transport cars but only after all personalized mass transit* needs are met" Musk said.
> 
> video
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/moments/972579973704966144?lang=en




Boring tunnels through cities like those Musk imagined is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And to transport pedestrians and cyclists? C'on man. 

It's be a whole lot cheaper, and safer, to just build tram lines. Heck, even an outdoor moving footpath would be cheaper. 

Imagine tunneling deep, and you'd have to go real deep else you hit all those sewers and utilities. That mean more cost. Then there's the station and access per stop. 

It's almost like asking a kid what cool stuff they want built right after a few episodes of The Jetsons. The almost is because a kid doesn't have billions of dollars attached to the idea.


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2018)

Joules MM1 said:


> Audi gegen Tesla - wer gewinnt das Drag Race? Seht zu, wie Jeremy Clarkson sich im Tesla gegen den Audi duelliert. Viel Spaß beim Tesla Drag Race!





Jeremy got the memo since the other incident, yah?


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The other issue, that I find amusing is, everyone keeps talking money to produce hydrogen.
> The gfc proved money is just numbers on spreadsheets, if it is only a money issue, that is a minor problem. Lol




Yea, true. But the spreadsheet is password protected.


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I don't dissagree with you and I have stated, hydrogen is 30 to 50 years away, from being the ultimate solution.
> Batteries will be the stop gap solution, but can you imagine the toxic residue problem, in 50 years. Also don't you think there will be a resource problem? Or do you think we will find a way to produce perpetual motion, by recycling batteries that give no waste and just as much energy as the original.
> Best of luck with that idea.IMO




What resource problem?

What's left of Africa will belong to the Chinese soon, if not already. But there's always S/America, Afghanistan and Australia... and China only own half of two of those places.


----------



## explod (11 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> They are treating the symptoms of rapid population group rather than the cause.



Yep, stop births, nobody wants to be the bearer of this but it's probably the only road, if any, we really have left.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 March 2018)

explod said:


> Yep, stop births, nobody wants to be the bearer of this buts it's probably the only road, if any, we really have left.




Why bring in 200,000 people a year from other countries that we don't need ?


----------



## CanOz (11 March 2018)

You economic geniuses going to explain who will pay your social entitlements if you don't have younger, fitter people to work and pay tax???!


----------



## SirRumpole (11 March 2018)

CanOz said:


> You economic geniuses going to explain who will pay your social entitlements if you don't have younger, fitter people to work and pay tax???!




Those younger fitter people will be replaced by machines and computer programs so they won't have jobs.

Governments will have to start taxing machines and giving the money to consumers so that they can complete the money circulation and buy the goods and services, otherwise the economy will collapse due to lack of consumer spending.


----------



## CanOz (11 March 2018)

OK, so given your theory regarding limiting immigration, how'd that work for Japan so far?


----------



## SirRumpole (11 March 2018)

CanOz said:


> OK, so given your theory regarding limiting immigration, how'd that work for Japan so far?




They are doing ok aren't they ?

They are overpopulated as it is.


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> They are doing ok aren't they ?
> 
> They are overpopulated as it is.




Japan hadn't managed to get out of the last property crash and recession. That was some 30 years ago. 

Costello did get it right with the Baby Bonus. A population need 2+ a dot something to replace retired, then permanently at peace, workers.

Even China came to realise that their 1 child policy cannot sustain the workforce.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 March 2018)

CanOz said:


> You economic geniuses going to explain who will pay your social entitlements if you don't have younger, fitter people to work and pay tax???!



I get your point but relying on a constantly increasing population to pay for the older ones is a textbook example of a ponzi scheme.


----------



## luutzu (11 March 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> I get your point but relying on a constantly increasing population to pay for the older ones is a textbook example of a ponzi scheme.




It's only a Ponzi when it relates to property 

Serious. 

Seniors and retirees have worked and contributed their bits to society. Can't keep that up forever so when they retire a couple of younger generation need to take their turn, work, pay taxes, contribute towards retirees pensions, healthcare and the likes. Then soon enough it'll be their turn and round it goes.

That's a virtuous cycle. 

Problem seems to be that by the time the latter generations retire, some idiot in high places thought that na, let be fair and privatise all these stuff so it's user pays and those who game the system or born well live longer. Alright, there'll be a few who work harder, got a few lucky breaks... they too can enjoy a decent retirement and healthcare and all that proper food and housing stuff, too.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 March 2018)

for those interested in the population problem, watch Four Corners tonight.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...ing-to-handle-its-swelling-population/9535116


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Governments will have to start taxing machines and giving the money to consumers so that they can complete the money circulation and buy the goods and services, otherwise the economy will collapse due to lack of consumer spending.




It's called "universal basic income", Elon musk is a fan.

But you don't need to change the tax system to tax machines, you just keep taxing the Profits of companies and individuals that own the machines, and other sources such as natural resources etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> It's called "universal basic income", Elon musk is a fan.
> 
> But you don't need to change the tax system, you just keep taxing the Profits of companies and individuals, and other sources such as natural resources etc.




Good on him, and Bill Gates feels the same way.

I can't say the Arabs looked too impressed though.


----------



## Tisme (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> It's called "universal basic income", Elon musk is a fan.
> 
> But you don't need to change the tax system to tax machines, you just keep taxing the Profits of companies and individuals that own the machines, and other sources such as natural resources etc.






Good post


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> It's only a Ponzi when it relates to property
> 
> Serious.
> 
> ...



No problem if it's the young replacing the old.

But if it depends on constantly increasing scale then it sure looks like a ponzi scheme to me. 

On current trends Melbourne is less than 20 years away from exceeding the present population of London. 30 years from now it'll be about the same size as Los Angeles is today and 40 years from now it will have overtaken New York too. 55 years from now it will be larger than any city on earth at present. 80 years from now the population of Melbourne hits 100 million.

Constant growth is an epic fail once you do the maths.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

Smurf1976 said:


> No problem if it's the young replacing the old.
> 
> But if it depends on constantly increasing scale then it sure looks like a ponzi scheme to me.
> 
> ...




Yea, that's how you get a proper empire going. Can't establish one with anything less than 200M. 

Australia is not overpopulated by a long shot. Even Vn has some 100M people. 

There's the quality of life, infrastructure issue with rising population... but with higher taxpayers come higher revenues. More economic productivity... grow the economy, more efficient use of land and infrastructure and all that economy of scale stuff. 

I mean, that's if the tax system and resource allocation are done right, it'll be great with more density. 

If it's like certain other countries where the tax collected goes to the collector and their friends, then we can blame the Muslims and refugees, and of course the dole bludgers, retiring seniors, young kids in primary too lazy to work etc. etc.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

Tisme said:


> Good post




Where's the punchline?


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> Does scamjets make those sonic booms?
> 
> Read that Concord was in use while Boeing's version was abandoned because Boeing designed theirs to go across the US continent while Concord goes over the ocean.
> 
> ...




Hi Iuutzu, remember when I told you about those scram jets, back on page 7, well Russia has just shown how well they work.

http://www.dw.com/en/russia-test-fires-hypersonic-kinzhal-missile/a-42929754

That will be liquid hydrogen, not batteries driving it. lol


----------



## brty (12 March 2018)

Hi SPTrawler,


sptrawler said:


> hydrogen is 30 to 50 years away, from being the ultimate solution.






sptrawler said:


> Also don't you think there will be a resource problem?




Those 2 parts of your post go together. I certainly agree there will be a resource problem in 30-50 years time, probably a lot sooner, hence why using the most efficient technology will be necessary. We cannot and will not be using technologies that are only 20% or so efficient when 80-90% efficiency is available.

Lithium batteries will certainly be recycled, just like hydrogen tanks, pipes, pumps, fuel cell stacks, etc would have to be recycled.

This is a thread about cars, not rockets. No-one is disputing that rockets will be propelled by hydrogen.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Hi Iuutzu, remember when I told you about those scram jets, back on page 7, well Russia has just shown how well they work.
> 
> http://www.dw.com/en/russia-test-fires-hypersonic-kinzhal-missile/a-42929754
> 
> That will be liquid hydrogen, not batteries driving it. lol





Elon will beg to differ. Then will ask for another few billions to take on the ruskies with solar powered missiles - saving both democracy and the planet 

Too much negative energy today.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2018)

brty said:


> Hi SPTrawler,
> 
> This is a thread about cars, not rockets. No-one is disputing that rockets will be propelled by hydrogen.




I was only responding to the car discussion a while back, where we were discussing the advantages of hydrogen over batteries as a fuel in cars and in general.
You probably weren't involved in it, at the time.

But getting back onto your input the other day, I noticed you mentioned hydrogen costs in California was about $14/kg.
That isn't bad actually, when you consider an average car running a H2 fuel cell, will do about 600Klm on 5kg of hydrogen.
So by your numbers:
 5kg x $14 = $70 to do 600k's on hydrogen.
Petrol car 600/ 10kl/l = 60l @ $1.30/l works out to $78 on petrol.
So hydrogen works out cheaper than petrol, by your figures.                             
Also it will only take a couple of minutes to fill up, makes batteries look a bit limp.


----------



## brty (12 March 2018)

Hydrogen at $US13/kg = ~$A16.66/kg. X 5 = $83 for about 500km. The standard seems to be about 100km/kg, Toyota Mirai 502km on about 5kg.

"Hydrogen gas is sold by the kilogram instead of the gallon and at the station we used to fill the Mirai in La Canada, Calif., it was $16.63 per kilogram. The Mirai was three-quarters empty at that point and the tanks hold around 5 kilograms of hydrogen, so it took 3.81 kilograms to fill back it up at a cost of $63.51. The trip meter read 195.3 miles at that point. That put the cost per mile at around $0.33."
from...
https://www.cars.com/articles/fill-er-up-refueling-the-2016-toyota-mirai-1420690448036/

500km on batteries will cost me precisely nothing from existing solar panels that have already paid for themselves. 
Assuming I have to use offpeak power at 20c/kwh, it will cost $A20 for 100Kwh, which would go close to 500km (Tesla model S 335km for 60Kwh)

Hydrogen looks limp on those numbers.


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

brty said:


> Lithium batteries will certainly be recycled,







And thats the older batteries, The newer Tesla batteries will last about 25 years, longer than the cars life after that the could be repurposed as in the video above, and eventually fully recycled back into a new battery.


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

brty said:


> That put the cost per mile at around $0.33."
> from....




That is expensive, even if you had to pay $.30 per KWH for electric, the cost per mile in a Tesla model 3 would be about 7cents.

But as you pointed out, with Home Solar, off peak charging or AGL's $1 per day scheme, it would be much cheaper.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2018)

brty said:


> Hydrogen at $US13/kg = ~$A16.66/kg. X 5 = $83 for about 500km. The standard seems to be about 100km/kg, Toyota Mirai 502km on about 5kg.
> 
> "Hydrogen gas is sold by the kilogram instead of the gallon and at the station we used to fill the Mirai in La Canada, Calif., it was $16.63 per kilogram. The Mirai was three-quarters empty at that point and the tanks hold around 5 kilograms of hydrogen, so it took 3.81 kilograms to fill back it up at a cost of $63.51. The trip meter read 195.3 miles at that point. That put the cost per mile at around $0.33."
> from...
> ...




Actually, I would say, with your costings, hydrogen will overtake batteries much sooner than I thought. 
Batteries have the jump on hydrogen, because of availability and minimal infrastructure requirement.
But it won't be long before companies recognise the commercial side of manufacturing hydrogen, especially when millions of car batteries are taken to the tip.
Just my opinion, time will tell.


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> 5kg x $14 = $70 to do 600k's on hydrogen.




That would be about $26.50 worth of electricity in an electric car if you paid $0.30 per KWH, or as low as $7 if you did 600 km's per week on AGL's $1 per day charging plan, or next to nothing if you charged with home solar.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> That would be about $26.50 worth of electricity in an electric car if you paid $0.30 per KWH, or as low as $7 if you did 600 km's per week on AGL's $1 per day charging plan, or next to nothing if you charged with home solar.




I agree, that is about a third the cost of a petrol vehicle, to do the same klm.
If battery cars can get the recharge time down to 5-10minutes, there will be a rapid uptake, if they can't theirs will be a slow death.IMO


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> That would be about $26.50 worth of electricity in an electric car if you paid $0.30 per KWH, or as low as $7 if you did 600 km's per week on AGL's $1 per day charging plan, or next to nothing if you charged with home solar.




I don't think it's next to nothing even on your own home's solar panels.

Unless the likes of AGL change their current plan and want to not make money... but as it stands, the power from your panels are "bought" by AGL at some 7cents... they sell "their power" back to you at, i don't know, 22 cents or whatever their smart meter figured is peak or not.

It's not like what the solar guy told us... i.e. during the day all the power we use are from the solar panel and only buy more if we use more than what's produced. 

With battery packs for the home... unless it's wired differently, and permitted... I'm betting power from the solar somehow flow back to the grid first, then come back into your pack at a higher cost.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> That would be about $26.50 worth of electricity in an electric car if you paid $0.30 per KWH, or as low as $7 if you did 600 km's per week on AGL's $1 per day charging plan, or next to nothing if you charged with home solar.




btw, know how Tesla reckon electric cars don't need that much servicing because it have less parts etc.... 

How come there's a lot of service appointments and stuff I saw on YT.


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I agree, that is about a third the cost of a petrol vehicle, to do the same klm.
> If battery cars can get the recharge time down to 5-10minutes, there will be a rapid uptake, if they can't theirs will be a slow death.IMO




As I explained earlier, they don’t need to charge that fast, you can just plug it in when you park it, and start each day with a full charge, going to a petrol station once or twice a week for 10mins is a big waste of time.

Only time that you might have to wait for charging is road trips, but if you start with a full battery you can travel 680 kilometers with only stopping for 15mins, and who doesn’t stop for 15 mins at least once in 680 kilometers?


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> I don't think it's next to nothing even on your own home's solar panels.
> 
> Unless the likes of AGL change their current plan and want to not make money... but as it stands, the power from your panels are "bought" by AGL at some 7cents... they sell "their power" back to you at, i don't know, 22 cents or whatever their smart meter figured is peak or not.
> 
> ...




It costs $26.50 to do 600kms and that’s if you paid $0.30 per kWh, based on the 7cents solar buy back you quoted, you use the amount of power you could sell for $4.90, I consider that next to nothing.

Your last paragraph is just fantasy, you are so cynical, do you even research your opinions?


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> btw, know how Tesla reckon electric cars don't need that much servicing because it have less parts etc....
> 
> How come there's a lot of service appointments and stuff I saw on YT.




Because only Tesla do the service and warranty stuff, and there is only one service center in each city, unlike the multiple company and after market service centers for the other cars.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> As I explained earlier, they don’t need to charge that fast, you can just plug it in when you park it, and start each day with a full charge, going to a petrol station once or twice a week for 10mins is a big waste of time.
> 
> Only time that you might have to wait for charging is road trips, but if you start with a full battery you can travel 680 kilometers with only stopping for 15mins, and who doesn’t stop for 15 mins at least once in 680 kilometers?




The problem is, it is the same as why people stay with Telstra, even though all other providers have cheaper plans.
Telstra has the best mobile coverage, so people who live in the city and never go to the country say, well you never know we might go.

Look I've said it before, I like electricity I'm a sparky, so it is a win win situation for me.

All I'm talking about is the logical energy source, taking the obvious money considerations out, that will be easy to charge people for and good for the enviroment.

What your talking about, is what is the cheapest and easiest, that won't matter a $hit if the multinationals decide they can swap from oil to hydrogen.LOL


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Because only Tesla do the service and warranty stuff, and there is only one service center in each city, unlike the multiple company and after market service centers for the other cars.




Are the service frequent? By watching YT, it seems about the same number as current fossil based cars.

New fossil cars don't need any servicing, really, in the first 5 years. Beside oil change, air filters and maybe tyre if it's driven enough. 

So anyway, was wondering why the (seemingly) frequent checkups with Tesla.


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The problem is, it is the same as why people stay with Telstra, even though all other providers have cheaper plans.
> Telstra has the best mobile coverage, so people who live in the city and never go to the country say, well you never know we might go.



 They have electricity in the country already, its super easy to install a charging station, actually much easier and cheaper than building petrol station,

Hell, you can just plug into a regular power point if needs be.


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> Are the service frequent? By watching YT, it seems about the same number as current fossil based cars.
> 
> New fossil cars don't need any servicing, really, in the first 5 years. Beside oil change, air filters and maybe tyre if it's driven enough.
> 
> So anyway, was wondering why the (seemingly) frequent checkups with Tesla.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> It costs $26.50 to do 600kms and that’s if you paid $0.30 per kWh, based on the 7cents solar buy back you quoted, you use the amount of power you could sell for $4.90, I consider that next to nothing.
> 
> Your last paragraph is just fantasy, you are so cynical, do you even research your opinions?




We solar panels installed, we also know others who have them installed too. 

The sales pitch was that it saves money because during the day, especially sunny days, the power you use come directly from your own panels. i.e. if the panels produce, say, 100kWh and you use 120kWh on the day, the first 100 is "free" with you only paying for the last 20. 

Often you don't use that much so you sell it back and make some money no matter the price they're paying.

That's not what happen.

I pay the bills and it work like this: Your panels produce 100kWh... that's sold to the supplier at whatever rate they want to pay for it.

You usage are all bought from them, at their higher rate.


Soo... that's just me stating what I see as facts from the bills.

For solar battery packs... Like I said, unless it's wired independently or such... I don't see why the supplier wouldn't pull the same stunt they are doing with solar panels.

Don't know man, maybe they don't or won't do it because that's unfair. Maybe they will because that's probably the easiest way to make money.


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> We solar panels installed, we also know others who have them installed too.
> 
> The sales pitch was that it saves money because during the day, especially sunny days, the power you use come directly from your own panels. i.e. if the panels produce, say, 100kWh and you use 120kWh on the day, the first 100 is "free" with you only paying for the last 20.
> 
> ...




No that’s not quite right,

If the sun is up, and you are producing solar power, your house runs off the panels.

Any extra power that you don’t use, gets sold at your sell rate.

Once the sun goes down, or if you are using more than your panels are producing you will draw from he grid at your buy rate.

So the power you produce goes 

1st to cover your own usage (at that moment)

2nd sold to the grid,


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


>





Not that those fortunate enough to buy any of the luxury cars there care much for dollars and sense, oopps, cents    But I wouldn't be measuring the maintenance costs of owning a Tesla or any of those others the way the guy did.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he compare the pre-paid, insurance premium, service payment. Right? 

That's not the actual costs of maintenance/repair though. 

I mean, yes, true, the cost is whatever you pre-paid for etc. But think of it from a cheap guy like me who wouldn't be sold any of those road-side assist car care package, and forget about the properly licensed service centre charging $250 for an oil change. 

The actual maintenance costs would be how much would it cost the average owner of a Tesla vs Merc to repair/fix over, say a 5 year period if they don't take on the maintenance packages/insurance.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> They have electricity in the country already, its super easy to install a charging station, actually much easier and cheaper than building petrol station,
> 
> Hell, you can just plug into a regular power point if needs be.




Yes, but then it goes back to the charge time issue, jeez like I said if they can get the capacitor/battery hybrid going they're on a winner.
A capacitor can take a BIG hit of electricity and bleed it into the battery, that is where the technology will probably go.
But having said that, you will still have a huge issue with resources to make the batteries required, and a huge issue with recycling and or disposing of depleted batteries.

Also there will be an issue of charging for the electricity, oil company owned service stations aren't going to install electric charging points and get a pitance.
While the generating company uses their outlet, steals their customers, and rapes their profits.

Hydrogen gives off a waste of water, like duh that's good, it cost a lot to make, well Fluck they're only plebs they'll pay.
Christ people on the dole still smoke cigarettes at $30 a packet, and your telling me hydrogen costs too much to make, give me a break.
If you think cost is an issue, you're dreaming, the only issue is if companies can sell it.


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> No that’s not quite right,
> 
> If the sun is up, and you are producing solar power, your house runs off the panels.
> 
> ...




That's not what my bill says. 

And I know it because, shhh... don't tell anyone, when [someone else ] first had it installed and the installer have yet to inform the provider so he just tag the panels, somehow, to reverse the meter.

For an entire quarter the bill was about $3. That's three dollars.

i.e. the power the panels produced almost equal the consumption over the three months. 

Once it's switch over properly, it's been over $600/q all year round. 

Explain that one my idealistic capitalist friend.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> That's not what my bill says.
> 
> And I know it because, shhh... don't tell anyone, when [someone else ] first had it installed and the installer have yet to inform the provider so he just tag the panels, somehow, to reverse the meter.
> 
> ...




LOL, I have a mate who did that years ago, has kept the inductive disc meter, but he's $hit scared to go on holidays. Because if his next reading is ever below the previous, he will be sprung, then penalties of twice the inverter generated and a fine apply.lol


----------



## luutzu (12 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> LOL, I have a mate who did that years ago, has kept the inductive disc meter, but he's $hit scared to go on holidays. Because if his next reading is ever below the previous, he will be sprung, then penalties of twice the inverter generated and a fine apply.lol




yea, called the installer to fix it and he's like, oh yea... forgot about your job. No rush 'cause it's good for you.

We're like... yea, good until the fine us. Can't tell them we went on holiday all year so don't use power at all man.


----------



## Value Collector (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, but then it goes back to the charge time issue, jeez like I said if they can get the capacitor/battery hybrid going they're on a winner.
> A capacitor can take a BIG hit of electricity and bleed it into the battery, that is where the technology will probably go.
> But having said that, you will still have a huge issue with resources to make the batteries required, and a huge issue with recycling and or disposing of depleted batteries.
> 
> ...



What’s the issue with the charge time? For most of the year it takes zero of your time, due to over night charging, and on road trips it takes less time than filling your stomach and empting your bladder.

The problem with hydrogen is that you would need 3 times the infrastructure, eg, 3 times the number of wind turbines and solar panels etc because you lose so much power in the conversion process.

That’s the issue we have been trying to explain, it’s more expensive for a reason.


----------



## Value Collector (13 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> That's not what my bill says.
> 
> And I know it because, shhh... don't tell anyone, when [someone else ] first had it installed and the installer have yet to inform the provider so he just tag the panels, somehow, to reverse the meter.
> 
> ...




Dude you are wrong, it’s to late to explain it now I will explain tomorrow, what you see on your bill is just what you send out @ the sell rate, and what you buy back @ the buy rate.

If for example your washing machine is running during the day, that doesn’t appear on your bill (just less will be sent out at the sell rate while it’s running) provided your panels are making enough to run you washing machine at that exact moment, you won’t be paying anything.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> What’s the issue with the charge time? For most of the year it takes zero of your time, due to over night charging, and on road trips it takes less time than filling your stomach and empting your bladder.
> 
> The problem with hydrogen is that you would need 3 times the infrastructure, eg, 3 times the number of wind turbines and solar panels etc because you lose so much power in the conversion process.
> 
> That’s the issue we have been trying to explain, it’s more expensive for a reason.




What you seem to be ignoring, is no one will give a fluck if it is the most expensive, if it gives the desired result you'll just have to pay it.
When has anybody given a $hit about what something costs, if they can make them pay it?
FFS Labor introduced the carbon tax, our electricity has gone from the cheapest in the first world, to the most expensive.

Who the Fluck has said anything about that? other than smurph, and now you are telling me that if the Government decide hydrogen is the way to go, you with your little Tesla Car flag will stop it.
 Jeez grow up.

If the powers that be decree batteries are the way to go, batteries it will be, if they decide the economy can bear the jump to hydrogen, hydrogen it will be.
It will be a cost base analysis, that's all.
Get over it, I drive a diesel. LOL
God you must be a battery based computer programme, or an electric car seller.
Iutzu pulling off a blinder, if he gets away with it.lol


----------



## luutzu (13 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Dude you are wrong, it’s to late to explain it now I will explain tomorrow, what you see on your bill is just what you send out @ the sell rate, and what you buy back @ the buy rate.
> 
> If for example your washing machine is running during the day, that doesn’t appear on your bill (just less will be sent out at the sell rate while it’s running) provided your panels are making enough to run you washing machine at that exact moment, you won’t be paying anything.




Is there a way to test what you, and the sales guy, are telling me?

'cause I had an accidental test case and it appear that my panels generated almost as much as I used for an entire quarter. Then suddenly it don't generate so much no more


----------



## Value Collector (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> What you seem to be ignoring, is no one will give a fluck if it is the most expensive, if it gives the desired result you'll just have to pay it.
> When has anybody given a $hit about what something costs, if they can make them pay it?
> FFS Labor introduced the carbon tax, our electricity has gone from the cheapest in the first world, to the most expensive.
> 
> ...




The people that own the infrastructure will want to generate the highest return they can get, now sending the electricity into an inefficient system isn’t going to deliver the highest return.

Also consumers want the cheaper alternatives.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> The people that own the infrastructure will want to generate the highest return they can get, now sending the electricity into an inefficient system isn’t going to deliver the highest return.
> 
> Also consumers want the cheaper alternatives.




If consumers wanted the cheapest fuel, we would be still burning coal. Jeez

Consumers will want, what the Government decides is the best for the planet.

They have taken the road to saving the planet, batteries will get them over the removal of fossil fuels.

Hydrogen will be the clean fuel of the future, blind freddy can see that are you sitting next to him? ask him.

When it happens, will be completely dependent on Government legislation, batteries will be a stop gap.

But as has been shown by the S.A Government, who are trying to dig themselves out of a hole, batteries aren't the long term answer that's why they are putting in the hydrogen plants. oh


----------



## Value Collector (13 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> Is there a way to test what you, and the sales guy, are telling me?
> 
> 'cause I had an accidental test case and it appear that my panels generated almost as much as I used for an entire quarter. Then suddenly it don't generate so much no more




(Numbers quoted below vary on your plan)

When the meter runs backwards before it is setup correctly, you are getting a 1 for 1 swap for your generation. (This is not how it’s meant to work)

Eg, 1kwh that you send back completely offsets one that you buy, so you are selling your power 25cents and buying it back for 25cents.

Once your meter is set up correctly, you will be charged 25cents for every 1kwh you draw from the grid and receive 7cents or 15cents for credit for every 1kwh you send back.

Any electricity you use onsite as it is generated, doesn’t appear on your bill, you just use it free, because it’s yours.

So if your solar panels generated 100kwh today, you might have used 25 kWh yourself, and sent back 75kwh for a credit at 7cents each, but then that night you might have used 30kwh which you will be charged 25cents each for.

So the 25kwh you used yourself were entirely free, the 75kwh you got a credit for, and the 30kwh you used that night you bought just like everyone else.


----------



## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> (Numbers quoted below vary on your plan)
> 
> When the meter runs backwards before it is setup correctly, you are getting a 1 for 1 swap for your generation. (This is not how it’s meant to work)
> 
> ...




You are a computer programme, or a call centre, aren't you?
Do you live in India?
Are you a computer generated test droid, to check out EV acceptance?
PRINT THE FOLLOWING NUMBERS TO PROVE YOUR NOT A ROBOT.
Im A RicHard.


----------



## Wysiwyg (13 March 2018)

You people are making me feel like someone whose sole purpose is to keep society rolling comfortably along. Apols. for veering off electric cars subject.


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## Value Collector (13 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> Is there a way to test what you, and the sales guy, are telling me?
> 
> 'cause I had an accidental test case and it appear that my panels generated almost as much as I used for an entire quarter. Then suddenly it don't generate so much no more




Last post on this topic.

Watch this video from the 2.30 mark, it shows the Tesla app and how the electricity flow is managed between the load from the house, flow to and from battery, and how the excess/deficit is sent to of drawn from the grid.

2.30 mark the example starts.


----------



## luutzu (13 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Last post on this topic.
> 
> Watch this video from the 2.30 mark, it shows the Tesla app and how the electricity flow is managed between the load from the house, flow to and from battery, and how the excess/deficit is sent to of drawn from the grid.
> 
> 2.30 mark the example starts.





You and I both know there's never a last post on any topic 

I'll watch that Tesla fanboy thingy later, got a few bricks to lay because some contractors apparently don't do all the work what was agreed but want all the pay that was "agreed"... and then get upset when you don't pay them what they wanted. Farkers. 

The likes of AGL are much more polite. They just send you a bill with changes their fine prints said they can make and you can either get a lawyer or suck it up. 

So with regards to solar panels and using what's produced the moment it's produced etc... Yea, I know that that's what they said. Just that my bill and my experience and my little pocket calculator doesn't add 2 and 2 together.


----------



## Value Collector (13 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> Just that my bill and my experience and my little pocket calculator doesn't add 2 and 2 together.




the electricity you used directly from your solar panels never hit your bill, or your pocket calculator.

All that hits your bill is the Power you sent out and the power you took in.

eg. if you're producing at a rate of 4KWH, but are using at a rate of 1.5KWH, you will be sending 2.5KWH to the grid, that 1.5KWH you were using doesn't appear on any paper work, only excess production you sent to the grid does.

Also, if you turn your washing machine on, and some cloud cover comes and reduces your production to below you usage rate, you will be drawing the extra power you need at 25 cents, when the sun comes out later, you will be selling again at 7 cents.

(by the way you can shop around and get better rates, 7 cents is pretty crap, my dad is getting 16 cents and buying power at 28cents.)







> I'll watch that Tesla fanboy thingy later




don't comment back till after you have watched it, because it shows exactly what you are taking about, you can see live on the app where the power is going and where it is coming from.

pause the video as you see the screen change as the solar fluctuates and use your pocket calculator to see the flow.


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## luutzu (13 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> the electricity you used directly from your solar panels never hit your bill, or your pocket calculator.
> 
> All that hits your bill is the Power you sent out and the power you took in.
> 
> ...




I hear what you're saying, just it doesn't work out like that from my experience.

When the installer turn back the meter, I pay practically zero for the entire 3 months. When it's back to normal, I pay some $500.

Before the panels, we pay about $550. And i also remember the discount due to our solar was about $50... it's since been around $30 or something.

If what you're saying is what the power company does... it mean this:

First, let assume our normal pattern of usage remain the same; 

Second, a bill of $500 ought to show a rebate (discount) of around 1/3 for our solar energy. Not showing around 1/10th. Right?

We sell to them at 7cent; they sell to us at 22c [around there]. So if we sell about the same and uses about the same but the buy/sell rate is 1:3... you'd expect the bill to reflect that. 

Anyway, our usage pattern haven't changed. And with young kids going to bed early, not a whole lot of power are being used at night soooo I'm pretty sure their fine prints got the better of consumers, again.


Yea... we used to switch energy provider whenever some sales guy knock on the door with a better rate and discounts. But then a year or two later they take it back through other means.


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## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> I hear what you're saying, just it doesn't work out like that from my experience.
> 
> When the installer turn back the meter, I pay practically zero for the entire 3 months. When it's back to normal, I pay some $500.
> 
> ...



Spinning the disc is a better outcome.lol


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## luutzu (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Spinning the disc is a better outcome.lol




I heard of a guy who connect a bunch of car batteries in his shed to store the solar instead of selling it. 

I think he got pizzed at being played by the gov't and power companies enticing him to spend what must have been $8,000 to install the panels.


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## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> I heard of a guy who connect a bunch of car batteries in his shed to store the solar instead of selling it.
> 
> I think he got pizzed at being played by the gov't and power companies enticing him to spend what must have been $8,000 to install the panels.




Yes as soon as you put in batteries, you become a generator and don't qualify for any feed in tarif.
Well that's how it is in W.A


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## luutzu (13 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Yes as soon as you put in batteries, you become a generator and don't qualify for any feed in tarif.
> Well that's how it is in W.A




Didn't know that. Elon will probably give your Premier a call soon.

These home batteries sounds a lot like those home rainwater tanks they mandated for every new build over here. Just a lot more expensive. 

Power, water... these should be done on a massive scale. More efficient that way. At some $1500 or more a tank, the costs to have it installed and connected... Jesus. 

I know plumbers, builders and homeowners who disconnect and redo all these BASIX water saving nonsense once the final inspection is done. 

Can't water the toilet because it's green and full of crap from birds dropping; can't really water the garden because there's only one tank and nobody at Planning tells them to install a tap at each corner. Probably because it would clog the pipes and the hose too.


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## Humid (13 March 2018)

We must always remember that only 25% of oil is used in cars with plastics and other industrial uses consuming 40% and planes, trains, ships and trucks a further 35%. 
I’m buying oil &gas shares


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## sptrawler (13 March 2018)

Humid said:


> We must always remember that only 25% of oil is used in cars with plastics and other industrial uses consuming 40% and planes, trains, ships and trucks a further 35%.
> I’m buying oil &gas shares



I don't disagree, but have been burnt too many times, on oil and gas shares. no pun intended.


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## Value Collector (14 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> I hear what you're saying, just it doesn't work out like that from my experience.
> 
> When the installer turn back the meter, I pay practically zero for the entire 3 months. When it's back to normal, I pay some $500.




That’s because when it wasn’t set up correctly, and your meter was just rolling backwards as you fed in power you were getting 22cents for your credit instead of the 7 cents.

Eg, if you fed in 1 kWh during day, then used 1 kwh at night, the two offset each other and you get charged $0. 

Once he set it up correctly, you only got a 7cent credit for the 1kwh you fed in during the day, and then got charged 22cents for the night time one, costs you $0.15cents

You should be able to see on your bill how many kWh you were charged for at 22cents and how many you got credited for at 7cents.

And any you used directly you aren’t charged for. Which may not be much if you aren’t doing much at home during the day.

Start using machine machine and dryer etc more during the day,

And look for a better feed in tariff, 7cents is pretty crappy, my dad is getting 15cents


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## Value Collector (14 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> I heard of a guy who connect a bunch of car batteries in his shed to store the solar instead of selling it.
> 
> I think he got pizzed at being played by the gov't and power companies enticing him to spend what must have been $8,000 to install the panels.



That’s the whole point of the Tesla power wall,

To store the power rather than sell it at 7 cents, and use it later instead of buying for 22 cents.

It is also why charging an electric car at home when you have solar is a good idea, because when you charge your car with the 7cent power instead of selling it, you are basically filling your tank for $5.25


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## SirRumpole (14 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> It is also why charging an electric car at home when you have solar is a good idea, because when you charge your car with the 7cent power instead of selling it, you are basically filling your tank for $5.25




What if you drive your EV to work every day ?

Can a car battery be charged from your home battery at night when there is no solar ?


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## Value Collector (14 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> What if you drive your EV to work every day ?
> 
> Can a car battery be charged from your home battery at night when there is no solar ?




You can charge from the battery, but after you have used your household usage there probably isn’t much left.

So you would be best of just charging using off peak power, or just set it up to charge on weekends.

You just have it plugged in all the time, and have the charge settings loaded in the app, so if you happen to have it parked at home while the suns up it automatically starts charging.


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## Value Collector (14 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Yes as soon as you put in batteries, you become a generator and don't qualify for any feed in tarif.
> Well that's how it is in W.A



I think that is changed now


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## Value Collector (20 March 2018)

I thought this video was interesting,


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## SirRumpole (20 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I thought this video was interesting,





They look very vulnerable to a global financial downturn.


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## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I think that is changed now



That would be good, I always thought it strange, not encouraging people to install batteries.


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## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> They look very vulnerable to a global financial downturn.




Here is something for you, Rumpy.

https://www.themotorreport.com.au/car-article/motor-news/ford-mustang-hybrid-due-in-2020-117665.html


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## SirRumpole (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Here is something for you, Rumpy.
> 
> https://www.themotorreport.com.au/car-article/motor-news/ford-mustang-hybrid-due-in-2020-117665.html




Just the thing for a greying eco friendly revhead.


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## Value Collector (20 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> They look very vulnerable to a global financial downturn.




to a big one Yeah, at least till they have finished building out the giga factory and have cash rolling in, with little need to make big investments, and a stockpile of cash, as it said in the video most of the cash outflow is for investments, not operational losses,

Eventually they will probably be in the position of other big companies like apple or Disney, where the cash just rolls in.


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## luutzu (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Here is something for you, Rumpy.
> 
> https://www.themotorreport.com.au/car-article/motor-news/ford-mustang-hybrid-due-in-2020-117665.html




No. Way. 

I heard of their EcoBoost but a hybrid?


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## luutzu (20 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> to a big one Yeah, at least till they have finished building out the giga factory and have cash rolling in, with little need to make big investments, and a stockpile of cash, as it said in the video most of the cash outflow is for investments, not operational losses,
> 
> Eventually they will probably be in the position of other big companies like apple or Disney, where the cash just rolls in.




I think Buffett would flunk you for that bro 

What activity is considered Operating, what's Investing... it's pretty much up to directors' discretion isn't it? For example, is a marketing campaign an operating cost or an investment; are the costs of setting up charging stations an investment or part of operation... i.e. would people still buy Teslas if those "investment" in charging network are not made. If no, is it an investment or properly part of operation.

And did the guy in the video conclude that Tesla won't run out of cash because lenders and investors will just hand over more cash? 

That's a bit obvious isn't it? But that cannot be guaranteed.

I think that's why every car maker and vacumn cleaner guy is banging on about coming out with their own EV next couple of years.

For the car makers, it's a way of diverting investors enthusiasm for Tesla. I mean, with so many established car makers going into EV, investors would take a second look at other potentials than just Tesla to hand their cash over. Same with the lenders.

$10B in debt and burning some $1B a quarter?

The last time someone want to take on the big auto boys, we got Back to the Future.

And DeLorean was an actual auto engineer. He also didn't set out to invest in an entirely new charging network or energy source and the like.


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## sptrawler (20 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> No. Way.
> 
> I heard of their EcoBoost but a hybrid?




I think that will be popular with country Australia.


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## luutzu (20 March 2018)

sptrawler said:


> I think that will be popular with country Australia.




The electric charging from solar?

I'd still go for the petrol version though. Don't see the sense in a Mustang if I can't wake the whole street up... though it might look weird now that I'm not young anymore  It'd be just a try hard trying to relive... dam it kids can be cruel.


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## Value Collector (21 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> I think Buffett would flunk you for that bro
> 
> What activity is considered Operating, what's Investing... it's pretty much up to directors' discretion isn't it? For example, is a marketing campaign an operating cost or an investment; are the costs of setting up charging stations an investment or part of operation... i.e. would people still buy Teslas if those "investment" in charging network are not made. If no, is it an investment or properly part of operation.
> 
> ...




Pretty sure buffet would agree building a giant battery factory + building huge car plant + building a global charging network + opening new stores all over the world + doing r & d on new products are all investing.

The guy said investors would keep investing as long as things continued to look promising, which if you have actually liked at the details you would see they are.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> I thought this video was interesting,





That car looks terrific.

Better than any Ferrari or Lambo.


----------



## luutzu (21 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> Pretty sure buffet would agree building a giant battery factory + building huge car plant + building a global charging network + opening new stores all over the world + doing r & d on new products are all investing.
> 
> The guy said investors would keep investing as long as things continued to look promising, which if you have actually liked at the details you would see they are.




Tesla is at that stage where everything it does could be considered _both_ operating and investing. 

Where to put the expense is just management's decision to claim back R&D subsidies and looking not-so-bad on investor's roadshow. 

I'm obviously no accountant but if I were in the car manufacturing business, I'd classified by first car manufacturing plant as an operating expense rather than an investing activity. I mean, without that plant I wouldn't be able to operate my main activity of manufacturing, right? 

Expanding on that plant, getting rid of perfectly usable robots with better ones for efficiency... Those I'd considered investing. 

I read Buffett saying that if he teaches investing and ask students to value any dot.com company and they come back with a number, he'd flunk them. 

Why? I'm guessing that it's because they're burning cash like it's other people's money, and there's always more of it. 

-------------

I don't know how Tesla will work out, neither are many other investors, including that guy in the video. But Tesla is trying to change the world, taking on everybody and their politicians... and all from simply using bankers and investors' cash. 

A manufacturing business cannot keep doing that for too long. 

Think about it. Tesla is up against the car manufacturers, their parts suppliers; up against the world's charging networks of refill stations and all those logistic companies; it's up against the oil industry. 

How many jobs, how much money does all that industry have and would be at risk? 

You can't take on all that with investors and bankers cash alone. You'd need the gov't. And the gov't not only has the car, the oil, the supply chains up their azz, they also have voters whose jobs are also at risk.

Why in the world would any gov't support a factory that's mainly robotics (won't be hiring much, making more idle hands to cause social unrest)... 

Then top that off with car manufacturers all over the world announcing the drive to EV. 

Those guys have the cash, the assets, the experience, the brain power, the logistics, the know-how, the political influence... did I mention they also have positive cash flow (most of the time)?

Musk better grow up and learn to share the market potential of Tesla with other partners. By the look of it he want to operate that Apple model of excluding everyone else.

I mean, complaining about Tesla having to be in a JV if it want to operate in China? Come on Elon, if you want 100% ownership, how will the Chinese steal your ideas and IPs? How will the princlings make their billions? How will the Communist Party get you to influence certain policies in Washington?


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## Value Collector (21 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> I'm obviously no accountant but if I were in the car manufacturing business, I'd classified by first car manufacturing plant as an operating expense rather than an investing activity. I mean, without that plant I wouldn't be able to operate my main activity of manufacturing, right?




So you don't count the money being spend to build a new factory and to expand another existing one as investing??? 

I should use you as my accountant, using your theory I could write off the cost of building a new investment property as an expense on this years income tax, rather than be forced to depreciate it over 40 years.

Yet if I go and redo the kitchen with a nicer one that raises the rent by $5 a week you will want to count that as an investment, So on my books the total value of the rental property will appear as just the cost of the new kitchen.

I can see you are right in one thing, you are definitely not an accountant.

As I said before, your cynicism bores me, so don't be offended if my replies to you are limited in the future, you just seem to have a warped view of everything, everything you look at seems to be out to get you or con you, or rip people off, I am not interested in cynics.


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## Humid (21 March 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> That car looks terrific.
> 
> Better than any Ferrari or Lambo.




Nothing beats the sound of a flat plane crank under load


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## Humid (21 March 2018)

Will there be some sort of electrical car tax to make up for the lost fuel tax?


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## luutzu (21 March 2018)

Value Collector said:


> So you don't count the money being spend to build a new factory and to expand another existing one as investing???
> 
> I should use you as my accountant, using your theory I could write off the cost of building a new investment property as an expense on this years income tax, rather than be forced to depreciate it over 40 years.
> 
> ...




How do you not have any "cynicism" investing in public companies?

We're talking about corporate managers whose mandate is to make money first and foremost. We're not talking about kindergarten teachers or nurses man. 

And are my "cynicism" misplaced or without evidence? If not, then maybe it's just an approximate of the actual world we live in.

But anyway, if you think people are all honest and out there to deliver what they promised and what you paid for... try and have that investment property of yours built. Manage it yourself and see how people work.


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## Value Collector (21 March 2018)

Humid said:


> Will there be some sort of electrical car tax to make up for the lost fuel tax?




Eventually when they hit some critical mass in the future, until then the government would probably avoid it to help induce more electric cars.

Although, Electric cars would still be paying into the system via car rego etc just not quite as much without the fuel tax.

Also, there are other economic benefits to electrical cars that may offset other government spending, eg the government spends Billions related to air pollution heath problems, if electric cars reduced this, the benefit may be greater than the road tax.

Not to mention the trade deficit, using our own Solar, wind, Natural gas and coal rather than importing oil would have benefits for the trade deficit and also creating more local jobs and investment here.

We discussed it back on page 16 of this thread.

at the time I wrote this


> I think thats a pretty easy fix, once electric cars hit a certain number on the road the taxes just need to be changed to include them.
> 
> But, electric cars also provide financial and non financial benefits to other Australia, which may be worth a lot more than the road tax.
> 
> ...


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## Value Collector (21 March 2018)

luutzu said:


> How do you not have any "cynicism" investing in public companies?
> 
> .




Dude, there is a big difference between healthy skepticism and cynicism.

I consider myself a skeptic, but I can't stand cynics



> And are my "cynicism" misplaced or without evidence?




Yes, often you haven't even researched the facts behind the situation.




> But anyway, if you think people are all honest




Never have I said that, Although you seem to believe everyone and every company is dishonest.


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## Joules MM1 (23 March 2018)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...caf2&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter


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## Joules MM1 (16 April 2018)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...a421&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

BERLIN (Reuters) - The German automotive industry must invest heavily in electric car technology and develop battery production facilities in Europe to keep up with global competitors, Economy Minister Peter Altmaier said in a newspaper interview published on Monday. 

*German minister to carmakers: Invest in electric cars or lose out*


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## Wysiwyg (16 April 2018)

Bit of a leap into the unknown but someone planning to have a crack at the EV manufacturing in Australia.
*The Aussie Tesla: Start-up plans to build electric cars in Australia*


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## CanOz (16 April 2018)

Why would anyone manufacture anything in Australia?? Or better yet, why would anyone invest in anyone wanting to manufacture anything in Australia??


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## Wysiwyg (16 April 2018)

The costs too high you think?


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## SirRumpole (18 April 2018)

Some more pros and cons of EV's.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-17/electric-cars-no-silver-bullet/9667516


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## Joules MM1 (20 April 2018)

flying cars ...need a carport


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## tech/a (20 April 2018)

Joules MM1 said:


> flying cars ...need a carport





This ——is——-The future and they may well be solar driven 
But I think Hydrogen.


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## Joules MM1 (21 April 2018)

Record Electric Car Sales Month In Germany, While Diesel Dives (March Electric Car Sales Report)
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/2...diesel-dives-march-electric-car-sales-report/


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## noirua (21 April 2018)

I did have an LPG converted vehicle for quite a long time. Quite surprised one day when stopped from going into a car park. Seems there are also restrictions from going through some tunnels. Some vans had gas containers on the roof and that was before World War 2.

Electricity to power vehicles is 'old hat' it's nothing new at all. The first one was built in 1882 in Germany.



The "Elektromote", the world's first trolleybus,[6] in Berlin, Germany, 1882


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## noirua (21 April 2018)

A double-deck trolleybus in Reading, England, 1966


https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/561940


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## Joules MM1 (22 April 2018)

horse and cart revolution will bring problems of its own

the stench from fecal matter in the streets, the lack of farriers, the lack of forgers to make enough shoes, the lack of trainers, what to do with dead beasts that break down in the street, not enough wheel repair shops

of course, on the plus side: more jobs for wheel repair shops,  farriers, more basic sanitation jobs, steel forging, but, hey, let's not have any sense of value or optimism about this transitionary phase


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## SirRumpole (22 April 2018)

$85,000 ? And the rest !

You may get a 'standard' car for that , but the options to make it liveable will kill your bank balance.


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## Wysiwyg (22 April 2018)

Joules MM1 said:


> horse and cart revolution will bring problems of its own
> the stench from fecal matter in the streets,



You may be surprised to know horse **** doesn't stink unlike human waste although some may think theirs does not.


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## luutzu (22 April 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> $85,000 ? And the rest !
> 
> You may get a 'standard' car for that , but the options to make it liveable will kill your bank balance.




$85K USD. 

But man that looks awesome. 

The thing with Tesla is its cars look too ordinary for the price tag. It's not bad looking, just not unique enough.


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## Johny5 (27 April 2018)

luutzu said:


> The thing with Tesla is its cars look too ordinary for the price tag. It's not bad looking, just not unique enough.




My brother in law had a Tesla model S on loan for a week (won the loan in a competition). Your right they don't look like much but my god do they go (like the proverbial **** off a shovel) once the batteries are warmed up (yes warmed up to give peak power) I don't think any car on the road can beat it off the line up to 100KPH. The acceleration can only be described as neck snapping, in fact you need to be sitting properly back in the seat before tramping the accelerator to the floor, oh and make sure that no cars are in front within sight or they might get a rude shock when they find you in their back seat. And all you can hear is the hum from the motors and a slight squealing of the tyres. A real wolf in sheep's clothing.


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## basilio (4 May 2018)

Makes you think..

*China is adding a London-sized electric bus fleet every five weeks*





China is the world's pioneer in full scale adoption of electric busses.
Image: Proterra
26 Apr 2018


That’s the equivalent of the entire London bus fleet, says a new report by Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

The world has around 3 million buses. Most run on diesel and compressed natural gas. The global fleet of electric buses now totals around 385,000 vehicles - and 99% of those are in China. 
*
China goes electric*



Image: Bloomberg New Energy Finance
China has the biggest urban population in the world and air pollution is a major health hazard in Chinese cities. It’s also a high-profile political issue, says the report, so authorities must be seen to be doing everything in their power to clean up city air. On a broader economic level, China also wants to reduce its dependency on oil. 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018...don-sized-electric-bus-fleet-every-five-weeks

Strict air quality targets are driving the demand for electric buses. The government is subsidizing operators in the purchase and deployment of new fleets of environmentally friendly public transport fleets. Until the end of 2016, national and regional subsidies combined to bring the initial capital cost of an e-bus to below that of a similar diesel bus.


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## SirRumpole (4 May 2018)

I wonder if its practicable to place some electric cable under roads that cars can draw their power from instead of having to rely on batteries ?

What do you know, it's already been thought of.

https://theconversation.com/wired-u...e-your-electric-car-while-youre-driving-72625


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## explod (4 May 2018)

And this:-

http://www.solarroadways.com/

No end to what we can and will do but the corporates need to sell their oil and coal shares first.

Oh, and then be in charge of the alternatives.  It's the money Ralf.


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## basilio (4 May 2018)

How to move quickly on electric buses when you want to.. And the outcomes.

*Electric Bus Fleet?*
by 

 Lu Lu, Lulu Xue and Weimin Zhou - April 04, 2018
 Comments
|
Add Comment
|
Print





Electric buses have replaced diesel ones in Shenzhen, China. Photo by Lu Lu/WRI China
Diesel buses—and the choking smog they spew—are a common sight in most cities. But not in Shenzhen, China.

The southeastern city, which connects Hong Kong to mainland China, announced at the end of last year that all of its 16,359 buses had gone electric. The city’s buses are the world’s first 100 percent electrified bus fleet, and its largest—bigger than New York’s, Los Angeles’s, New Jersey’s, Chicago’s and Toronto’s electric bus fleets combined.

How the city overcame obstacles like high costs, lack of charging station infrastructure and more provides lessons for other cities looking to electrify their bus lines.
http://www.wri.org/blog/2018/04/how-did-shenzhen-china-build-world-s-largest-electric-bus-fleet


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## Joules MM1 (14 May 2018)

Norway - 52% of new car sales are hybrid or electric. Drivers of electric cars get car tax exemption, free charging, free parking, free use of tolls and ferries.


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## Joules MM1 (30 May 2018)

LONDON (Reuters) - The number of electric vehicles on roads worldwide rose to a record high of 3.1 million in 2017, but more research, policies and incentives are needed to drive further uptake, the International Energy Agency (IEA) said. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...1e9e&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter


----------



## Joules MM1 (1 June 2018)

yaaand not just cars


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2018)

Digressing a bit, but it did come up in this thread a long time back, when we were discussing batteries versus hydrogen.
https://thewest.com.au/business/avi...-to-london-in-two-hours-by-2050-ng-b88879795z

It's scram jet technology, which will force the renewable industry toward h2.
Renewables can't be charging batteries and making hydrogen, on a major scale. Batteries will be there for voltage stability and instantaneous response, but hydrogen storage has to be the main game, for transport.
Sorry Iuutzu, it isn't scam jet. lol


----------



## sptrawler (3 July 2018)

Looks like S.A company VOLTRA, is getting into the E.V space, great to see.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/bhp-electric-ute-vs-tesla-pickup-2018-6


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2018)

The next step in battery technology seems to be on the horizon, well they know what they need to do, now they just have to work out how.

https://www.caradvice.com.au/646463/solid-state-batteries/

It is starting to get to the capacitor/battery hybrid technology, we talked about at the beginning of the thread.


----------



## sptrawler (1 August 2018)

Here is some good news, Porsche will have an electric vehicle in Australia, by 2020.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...aycan-119044.html?ffref=theage&trackLink=SMH0

Now the hybrid might interest me.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 August 2018)

Porsche is VW these days.

Don't get too excited:

http://www.thebull.com.au/articles/...may-have-to-recall-124,000-electric-cars.html


----------



## BlindSquirrel (1 August 2018)

Can't be caught cheating environmental emissions testing if the car doesn't make any emissions!


----------



## PZ99 (1 August 2018)

BlindSquirrel said:


> Can't be caught cheating environmental emissions testing if the car doesn't make any emissions!




I expect the next "adjustment of truth" will be the advertised range between each charge for EVs.

0-100kph - 2.5s / range 400k's... all downhill. lol

Am interested in doing a retro fit myself - my power is free


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2018)

The momentum to hydrogen continues, it isn't if, it's when.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...-csiro-game-changer-export-potential/10082514


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The momentum to hydrogen continues, it isn't if, it's when.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...-csiro-game-changer-export-potential/10082514




The question is why would countries like Japan buy hydrogen from us when they can make it themselves using ammonia they produce ?

There would have to be some patented process that we could license to make any profit for us.


----------



## sptrawler (8 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> The question is why would countries like Japan buy hydrogen from us when they can make it themselves using ammonia they produce ?
> 
> There would have to be some patented process that we could license to make any profit for us.




Japan doesn't have the quantity of renewable energy required, to make the hydrogen, we do.

The ammonia is only the storage medium, the hydrogen is produced then added to the ammonia for transport, then extracted at its destination.
This is a good article, explaining the processes required and the advantages of hydrogen.
http://www.solarpaces.org/missing-link-solar-hydrogen-ammonia/


----------



## SirRumpole (8 August 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Japan doesn't have the quantity of renewable energy required, to make the hydrogen, we do.
> 
> The ammonia is only the storage medium, the hydrogen is produced then added to the ammonia for transport, then extracted at its destination.
> This is a good article, explaining the processes required and the advantages of hydrogen.
> http://www.solarpaces.org/missing-link-solar-hydrogen-ammonia/




Thanks, looks good.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 August 2018)

Will electric cars break the (government's) budget ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...ise-funding-before-electric-car-boom/10175402


----------



## Junior (29 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Will electric cars break the (government's) budget ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...ise-funding-before-electric-car-boom/10175402




I see major issues with charging per kilometre driven....as lower-income families often drive more km's as they live in outer suburbs or rural areas.  These families are already subject to higher costs in terms of tolls & fuel.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Will electric cars break the (government's) budget ?
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...ise-funding-before-electric-car-boom/10175402




The whole tax system is a problem, I posted this in July in the Labor Party  thread.
It is quite a good summary.

https://thewest.com.au/opinion/shan...when-the-the-tax-river-runs-dry-ng-b88901750z

The Tax system is not functioning as it was intended and all the Governments want to do is band aid it, or pretend there isn't a problem.
It is amazing how powerful the fear of being voted out is, they would rather run the system down, rather than face voter backlash.
The problems aren't going away.


----------



## moXJO (31 August 2018)

How much lithium do we actually have? 
I'm seeing figures that say 350 years worth. And others saying it will last to 2050. Producing enough is also a problem.


----------



## sptrawler (31 August 2018)

moXJO said:


> How much lithium do we actually have?
> I'm seeing figures that say 350 years worth. And others saying it will last to 2050. Producing enough is also a problem.



I would assume they don't actually know, because the companies haven't been actively drilling for it, a lot of what they are locating now is in old mine areas like Greenbushes tin mine in W.A. The old core samples probably showed lithium in the analysis reports, so now they are re opening as lithium mines and doing exploratory drilling. Just my guess.


----------



## ghotib (4 September 2018)

Almost mainstream? The Driven ( https://thedriven.io/ ) is a new website focusing electric vehicles and "the transition to zero carbon transport". 

From the description on parent site RenewEconomy:


> We are launching it now because we are on the verge on an extraordinary shift in our transport options and choices. Car companies are  ready to roll out new EV models in Australia, and policy makers are grappling with what they should do.
> 
> But more than that, we know from our experience on RenewEconomy that the appetite from readers for EV news is huge, and growing.




Personally I'd rather have the vehicle than the news, but for now I'll take what I can get


----------



## sptrawler (5 September 2018)

Tesla will have to get its act together, mainstream is starting to gather momentum, in the electric car space.
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/mercedes-benz-eqc-2019-revealed-70766

I certainly hope Governments legislate, to start and require standard charging, or we will end up like the early mobile phone days a different charger/plug for every phone.


----------



## luutzu (5 September 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Tesla will have to get its act together, mainstream is starting to gather momentum, in the electric car space.
> https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/mercedes-benz-eqc-2019-revealed-70766
> 
> I certainly hope Governments legislate, to start and require standard charging, or we will end up like the early mobile phone days a different charger/plug for every phone.




Looks like the big boys have woken up and ready to beat the crap out of Tesla. 

It might be a reversal of the Ford Motor Company where the Mercedes etc. built cars for fancy people. Came Ford who bring it to the masses and eat all their lunches.

Though to be fair, Tesla does try to go for the masses after the initial luxury market. Proved too costly and could be a bit too late.


----------



## sptrawler (5 September 2018)

luutzu said:


> Looks like the big boys have woken up and ready to beat the crap out of Tesla.
> 
> It might be a reversal of the Ford Motor Company where the Mercedes etc. built cars for fancy people. Came Ford who bring it to the masses and eat all their lunches.
> 
> Though to be fair, Tesla does try to go for the masses after the initial luxury market. Proved too costly and could be a bit too late.




While on the subject of Ford, they are in talks with VW about joint ventures, that will make one big auto power house.

https://www.dw.com/en/ford-and-volkswagen-eye-strategic-partnership/a-44302618

I have the feeling, in a few years, everyone will be talking about Tesla as a pioneer, but alas I feel they will go the way of the dinosaur.
With the advent of electric vehicles, it will be get big or get out.
The low maintenance requirement and exactly the same drive trains in all vehicles, will result in manufactures only making money on initial sales, this will send many to the wall.
The resultant loss of jobs in auto related industries, will also be massive, it isn't going to be pretty.


----------



## luutzu (5 September 2018)

sptrawler said:


> While on the subject of Ford, they are in talks with VW about joint ventures, that will make one big auto power house.
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/ford-and-volkswagen-eye-strategic-partnership/a-44302618
> 
> ...




Yea, not pretty. 

The days of a car or two for every family might be history too I reckon. 

As population grow, limited land and space; higher prices for fuel etc., public transport might be all that's needed for most days of the week for a large portion of the population. 

On weekend getaways and the like... the new self-driving tech could make renting/taxi-ing quite affordable and efficient I reckon. 

Either way, Tesla can't keep burning $1B a quarter forever.


----------



## sptrawler (5 September 2018)

luutzu said:


> Yea, not pretty.
> 
> The days of a car or two for every family might be history too I reckon.
> 
> ...




The loss of taxation will cause its own issues, fuel excise gone, when autonomous driving cars come in speeding, red light and most other types of vehicle related fines gone.

The Government will have to find new and creative ways to fund the police, the police will have to start and solve non road related crimes, which will go up as more people find illegal ways to maintain their lifestyle.


----------



## luutzu (5 September 2018)

sptrawler said:


> The loss of taxation will cause its own issues, fuel excise gone, when autonomous driving cars come in speeding, red light and most other types of vehicle related fines gone.
> 
> The Government will have to find new and creative ways to fund the police, the police will have to start and solve non road related crimes, which will go up as more people find illegal ways to maintain their lifestyle.




There's always fines for jay walking. Doubling it on Holidays and long weekends too.  

Man, imagine how much they can rake in on NY Eve. 

Then there's the American innovation of seizing "suspicious" driver's car, assets while booking them for driving poor. Some of their police department fund themselves entirely through that scheme.


----------



## sptrawler (5 September 2018)

luutzu said:


> There's always fines for jay walking. Doubling it on Holidays and long weekends too.
> 
> Man, imagine how much they can rake in on NY Eve.
> 
> Then there's the American innovation of seizing "suspicious" driver's car, assets while booking them for driving poor. Some of their police department fund themselves entirely through that scheme.



Autonomous driven cars, will make it really difficult for getaway drivers.
"If you wish to proceed through the red light, you must accept the disclaimer, if you wish to accept the disclaimer you will have to enter your password"

" your password has been accepted, you may go through the light, by the way it is green now".

"please proceed to the next light".
If you don't wish to have these interruptions to your journey, please engage auto pilot"


----------



## sptrawler (5 September 2018)

luutzu said:


> There's always fines for jay walking. Doubling it on Holidays and long weekends too.
> 
> Man, imagine how much they can rake in on NY Eve.
> .



With Jay walking, the cars will recognise a mobile phone, and will stop. Otherwise it will have front sensing camera's, like my car does and stop.
So there wont be any money there either.
It will be a really interesting World, they will just have to tax the $hit out of anyone with money or assetts, which everyone seems happy with anyway.
So the poor will have a good time, until those with money, run out of money. 
Then there won't be any easy targets.


----------



## sptrawler (10 September 2018)

Value Collector said:


> The people that own the infrastructure will want to generate the highest return they can get, now sending the electricity into an inefficient system isn’t going to deliver the highest return.
> 
> Also consumers want the cheaper alternatives.




Hi VC, I personally would get the refund back and buy a Nissan Leaf.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/business/tesla-ceo-smokes-marijuana-stock-falls-ng-s-1890257

It might be just a publicity gimmic, but he is running out of three card tricks, and the competition is heating up.


----------



## CanOz (11 September 2018)

Tesla has been upgraded by two US brokers as they see them turning a profit in the second half.


----------



## moXJO (11 September 2018)

Musk is coming across as losing it.
Him doubling down on his pedo slurs was worrying.


----------



## sptrawler (11 September 2018)

moXJO said:


> Musk is coming across as losing it.
> Him doubling down on his pedo slurs was worrying.



He must be under a hell of a lot of stress, I wondn't want to be in his shoes for quids .


----------



## orr (11 September 2018)

CanOz said:


> Tesla has been upgraded by two US brokers as they see them turning a profit in the second half.





I don't have the exact dates at hand but the Model3 Australia launch is due any day simultaneous in Melb Syd Bris... Model3 Production at the moment is north of average 5000 units a week. Gigafactory2 is getting busy in Buffalo...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-2-job-creation-buffalo-ny/

Following the thoughts of Jack Rickard at EVTV; his interest is in Elons work at upsetting the short sellers. Long reads for those interested.
http://evtv.me

And the coalitions work on encouraging industry development in these blue sky futures is??/


----------



## Value Collector (12 September 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Hi VC, I personally would get the refund back and buy a Nissan Leaf.




LOL, no thanks, I want the Tesla.


----------



## Value Collector (12 September 2018)

By the way, the fact that he had a drag of a joint, which is legal in California doesn't bother me, I mean who hasn't, If it were legal in Australia I would be part taking myself every now and again.

To be honest, I think he bum puffed it and didn't actually inhale HAHAHA


----------



## Value Collector (13 September 2018)

Value Collector said:


> By the way, the fact that he had a drag of a joint, which is legal in California doesn't bother me, I mean who hasn't, If it were legal in Australia I would be part taking myself every now and again.
> 
> To be honest, I think he bum puffed it and didn't actually inhale HAHAHA




If anything, the entire exchange shows of Elon's natural curiosity and inner geek, it certainly doesn't make him look like a hardened drug user, who regularly snots cocaine etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 September 2018)

Value Collector said:


> If anything, the entire exchange shows of Elon's natural curiosity and inner geek, it certainly doesn't make him look like a hardened drug user, who regularly snots cocaine etc.




Musk has admitted he's a drug user (Ambien) which has been linked to strange behaviour.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-19/what-is-ambien/10135944

No doubt that he's lost some of his shine lately over his comments re the Thai cave rescue and other things.


----------



## Value Collector (13 September 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Musk has admitted he's a drug user (Ambien) which has been linked to strange behaviour.
> .




I also don't mind him dropping a sleeping pill every now and again, Hahaha, perhaps weed is the better of the two options though.

I guess I am a drug user too, I had 10 Rums on Saturday night, and then some panadol in the morning. 



> No doubt that he's lost some of his shine lately over his comments re the Thai cave rescue and other things.




No one is perfect, I think we have all said some stupid stuff under the influence of one drug or another,


----------



## luutzu (13 September 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> Musk has admitted he's a drug user (Ambien) which has been linked to strange behaviour.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-19/what-is-ambien/10135944
> 
> No doubt that he's lost some of his shine lately over his comments re the Thai cave rescue and other things.




He can be forgiven. He's under a lot of stress. 

You try pretending you're running three multi-billion dollar company


----------



## SirRumpole (13 September 2018)

Value Collector said:


> No one is perfect, I think we have all said some stupid stuff under the influence of one drug or another,




Yep, that's the price of brilliance and fame I guess.


----------



## Value Collector (18 September 2018)

Volvo is working a driverless electric trucks, short haul jobs at the moment, But I could imagine these things on long haul intercity trips.


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2018)

Nissan and Mazda are cranking up the electric car space.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...c-future-119683.html?ffref=smh&trackLink=SMH0

https://www.caradvice.com.au/691596/mazda-rotary-2020-electric-car/

I think Tesla will have to sort itself out, or go the way of the Delorean

An interesting extract from the Mazda article:
_In order to hit these targets, Mazda will electrify its entire range by 2030. It estimates hybrids will account for 95 per cent of production by 2030, with full electric and range-extended cars accounting for the remaining five per cent_.


----------



## sptrawler (8 October 2018)

Porsche is promising something special, in the electric car space.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...-cayenne-119726.html?ffref=smh&trackLink=SMH0
From the article:
_with Porsche promising a range of 500km, 440kW of power and a 0-100km/h time of less than 3.5 seconds. It also promises to add 400km of range in just 15 minutes thanks to a 800-volt fast charging system_.

Tesla really do need to get their skates on, and get the product out to owners, it looks like the major players are getting serious.


----------



## Lantern (9 October 2018)

Most of us will be driving electric cars in the not too distant future.
My next car will be electric.


----------



## basilio (22 October 2018)

Good story.  Don't take the $150 around Oz* too* seriously though..

* How much does it cost to power an electric car around Australia? $150 *
Retired farmer Sylvia Wilson’s husband died before they could do their dream road trip. She decided to go anyway
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150


----------



## SirRumpole (22 October 2018)

basilio said:


> Good story.  Don't take the $150 around Oz* too* seriously though..
> 
> * How much does it cost to power an electric car around Australia? $150 *
> Retired farmer Sylvia Wilson’s husband died before they could do their dream road trip. She decided to go anyway
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150




Good on her.

I might be tempted to take a portable generator and a few jerry cans of fuel if I did that trip though.


----------



## sptrawler (6 November 2018)

Melbourne council to test hydrogen fuel cell cars.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...elbourne-119987.html?ffref=smh&trackLink=SMH0


----------



## SirRumpole (6 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Melbourne council to test hydrogen fuel cell cars.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...elbourne-119987.html?ffref=smh&trackLink=SMH0




If the ammonia transportation idea gets going, hydrogen cars could be the way to go.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08...-csiro-game-changer-export-potential/10082514


----------



## sptrawler (6 November 2018)

SirRumpole said:


> If the ammonia transportation idea gets going, hydrogen cars could be the way to go.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08...-csiro-game-changer-export-potential/10082514




I think it is more flexible as a fuel storage medium, than batteries.
Having said that, batteries are much more advanced than fuel cells and are a great near term answer for city commuters.
It is in the longer term, that hydrogen will come to the fore, as a total replacement for fossil fuel. IMO


----------



## sptrawler (6 November 2018)

This could well be my next car. 

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-ford-mustang-hybrid-what-to-expect/


----------



## Darc Knight (6 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> This could well be my next car.
> 
> https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-ford-mustang-hybrid-what-to-expect/




'It will be primarily powered by an unspecified EcoBoost turbo engine - potentially a development of the 233kW/432Nm 2.3-litre donk in the current-gen Mustang Ecoboost – which should match its 306kW/520Nm V8 big-brother once augmented by an electric assistance motor.


----------



## sptrawler (7 November 2018)

More news on the H2 car front.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/hyundai-developing-fcev-network/ar-BBP4Dy8?ocid=spartandhp

It sounds as though there is a fair bit of ground swell, yipee.


----------



## PZ99 (8 November 2018)

I'll take one of these mudders thanks... 0-100 in 1.5 sex 




https://www.motorsport.com/v8superc...ild-1340-horsepower-bathurst-concept/3188928/

+ I'll install a growler audio kit to make it sound like a V8 when I put the hammer down.
Might even add a back-fire mp3 to the playlist when I lift off


----------



## sptrawler (22 November 2018)

Andrew Forrest throwing his support behind Hydrogen.

https://www.afr.com/news/politics/a...ydrogen-industry-in-australia-20181121-h1871p

From the article:
_Hyundai is planning to release a hydrogen-powered car in Australia with a range of 800 kilometres._


----------



## sptrawler (30 November 2018)

Nissan making the leaf, so that it can be integrated and used as home storage system.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...st-drive-120200.html?ffref=smh&trackLink=SMH0


----------



## luutzu (30 November 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Nissan making the leaf, so that it can be integrated and used as home storage system.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...st-drive-120200.html?ffref=smh&trackLink=SMH0




Clever.


----------



## sptrawler (11 December 2018)

sptrawler said:


> Nissan making the leaf, so that it can be integrated and used as home storage system.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...st-drive-120200.html?ffref=smh&trackLink=SMH0




More info on vehicle to grid storage.

https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/future_vehicle-to-grid-technology


----------



## Humid (12 December 2018)

“Dad can I borrow your car tonight “
No worries where’s the candles....


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2018)

Humid said:


> “Dad can I borrow your car tonight “
> No worries where’s the candles....



A more likely scenario will be, "son can you take my car to work today and charge it."


----------



## Humid (12 December 2018)

I was in Joondalup yesterday sp and you could quite easily live there without a car.


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2018)

Humid said:


> I was in Joondalup yesterday sp and you could quite easily live there without a car.



I haven't been up there for years, but I guess it is a lot like these satellite centers, they are designed to supply everything. Train/bus interchange, retail, commercial and residential, it is a good idea really.
In those sort of areas, as you say, a car is really a luxury. You could probably manage with an electric bicycle or taxi, for any medium distance travel, the money you would save would be quite considerable.


----------



## sptrawler (12 December 2018)

Hyundai think hydrogen is the way to with electric vehicles, they are going to spend $9B developing them.
https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news...hydrogen-120357.html?ffref=smh&trackLink=SMH0


----------



## basilio (27 December 2018)

Some really intriguing stories on the direction of electric cars. 

*Revealed: Australian solar-powered electric vehicle with swappable bodies*
https://thedriven.io/2018/12/11/rev...d-electric-vehicle-aims-to-re-imagine-future/

*Using diesel to charge EVs in the outback is greener than you think*
https://thedriven.io/2018/12/14/diesel-charge-evs-remote-locations-greener-than-you-think/


----------



## Logique (27 December 2018)

Low carbon alternative, and probably where we're headed


----------



## SirRumpole (27 December 2018)

Logique said:


> Low carbon alternative, and probably where we're headed
> View attachment 90964




Low carbon ?

What about all the CO2 exhaled by the driver ?


----------



## sptrawler (19 January 2019)

Tesla is creating a bit of news, separating the fact from the fiction is always the issue with Tesla.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...-announces-mass-job-cuts-20190119-p50sdd.html

Hopefully, they get the model 3 production rate up to speed.


----------



## rederob (19 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Good on her.
> 
> I might be tempted to take a portable generator and a few jerry cans of fuel if I did that trip though.



Doubt that you would need to, unless you were truly off road and away from civilization.
Back on topic, I was reading various announcement over the past few months and every major car manufacturer was now adding extra billions (*not *millions) to ramp up their EV capacity.  So I had a "gentleman's bet" with my friend that any car he bought after 2023 would be electric as he's a dyed in the wool old fashioned petrol head and needs a long range vehicle.  When I pointed out he has a "rest break" after a few hours anyway his only response was "what if I don't take a break".  ....give me a break.


----------



## sptrawler (19 January 2019)

rederob said:


> Doubt that you would *not *need to, unless you were truly off road and away from civilization.
> Back on topic, I was reading various announcement over the past few months and every major car manufacturer was now adding extra billions (*not *millions) to ramp up their EV capacity.  So I had a "gentleman's bet" with my friend that any car he bought after 2023 would be electric as he's a dyed in the wool old fashioned petrol head and needs a long range vehicle.  When I pointed out he has a "rest break" after a few hours anyway his only response was "what if I don't take a break".  ....give me a break.



2023 is a bit ambitious IMO.


----------



## rederob (19 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> 2023 is a bit ambitious IMO.



Had to start a conversation and 2025 seemed too gettable.
So my rationale was simple.
Manufacturing investment will be to optimise EV sales, which means these new models will not be hampered by legacy technology in ICE vehicles.  Given that all major manufacturers propose to have a range of EVs available before 2023, what will hit the streets is likely to outshine ICE offerings.
I also looked at how EV costs have come down as scale increases, and the rate of decline in costs is likely to follow the path of PV solar panel costs, meaning cheaper for a lot longer to come.


----------



## sptrawler (19 January 2019)

rederob said:


> Had to start a conversation and 2025 seemed too gettable.
> So my rationale was simple.
> Manufacturing investment will be to optimise EV sales, which means these new models will not be hampered by legacy technology in ICE vehicles.  Given that all major manufacturers propose to have a range of EVs available before 2023, what will hit the streets is likely to outshine ICE offerings.
> I also looked at how EV costs have come down as scale increases, and the rate of decline in costs is likely to follow the path of PV solar panel costs, meaning cheaper for a lot longer to come.



I don't think, in Australia, the charging infrastructure will be adequate by 2023. 
Therefore range anxiety, will still be a major issue.
Just my opinion.


----------



## rederob (19 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I don't think, in Australia, the charging infrastructure will be adequate by 2023.
> Therefore range anxiety, will still be a major issue.
> Just my opinion.



I did say "*after 2023*" so there is almost 5 years to see how this pans out.
I don't know how much it will cost to put in place a charging infrastructure.
However, cars which have parked up after they have filled their tanks at major highway service stations, and are now tucking into meals, coffees, etc., are already accommodated.  Rejigging parking lots to add charging points won't present a problem.  I would also think food outlets at these service centres might change their offerings as drivers won't feel in a hurry to head off: maybe less fast food and more decent meal servings.
On range anxiety I noticed that manufacturers were already segmenting markets and products to suit.  Japan's market for short range Leaf models seems to be holding up well.  
Tesla's technology simply guides drivers to the nearest charging points, and I imagine in years to come all EVs will have technology ensuring they don't get caught short.


----------



## ghotib (19 January 2019)

My next car will be electric and I'm already putting off replacing my trusty Corolla while I wait for an appropriate EV to come on the market. 

Hearing in the last couple of weeks that new car sales were down last year, I wonder how many people are, like me, delaying their purchase until an electric model is available. If it's a significant number then the bottleneck might turn out to be vehicle supply and dealer awareness rather than charging infrastructure. 

People who have EVs now don't seem to be any more concerned about range than ICE vehicle owners. I think the anxiety will fade away as EVs become more common at the same time as the charging network grows.


----------



## sptrawler (19 January 2019)

ghotib said:


> My next car will be electric and I'm already putting off replacing my trusty Corolla while I wait for an appropriate EV to come on the market.
> 
> Hearing in the last couple of weeks that new car sales were down last year, I wonder how many people are, like me, delaying their purchase until an electric model is available. If it's a significant number then the bottleneck might turn out to be vehicle supply and dealer awareness rather than charging infrastructure.
> 
> People who have EVs now don't seem to be any more concerned about range than ICE vehicle owners. I think the anxiety will fade away as EVs become more common at the same time as the charging network grows.



That's just beautiful.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

ghotib said:


> My next car will be electric and I'm already putting off replacing my trusty Corolla while I wait for an appropriate EV to come on the market.
> 
> Hearing in the last couple of weeks that new car sales were down last year, I wonder how many people are, like me, delaying their purchase until an electric model is available. If it's a significant number then the bottleneck might turn out to be vehicle supply and dealer awareness rather than charging infrastructure.
> 
> People who have EVs now don't seem to be any more concerned about range than ICE vehicle owners. I think the anxiety will fade away as EVs become more common at the same time as the charging network grows.




I am waiting for my model 3.

I still own the first car I ever bought, so I plan on owning my next car for a similar time frame, so buying a petrol car is just not an option.

It would be like buying a stream powered car right on the dawn of the combustion engine, eg totally silly not to wait.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I am waiting for my model 3.
> 
> I still own the first car I ever bought, so I plan on owning my next car for a similar time frame, so buying a petrol car is just not an option.
> 
> It would be like buying a stream powered car right on the dawn of the combustion engine, eg totally silly not to wait.




I don't think your Tesla would last 5 years bro. 

But you guys can buy them EV first though. It'll be good for us petrol heads to replace our rust buckets for new unwanted ones for half the price.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> I don't think your Tesla would last 5 years bro.
> 
> But you guys can buy them EV first though. It'll be good for us petrol heads to replace our rust buckets for new unwanted ones for half the price.




5 years?

Did you know there is already Tesla’s older than 5 years than have done nearly 1 million Km’s.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I am waiting for my model 3.
> 
> I still own the first car I ever bought, so I plan on owning my next car for a similar time frame, so buying a petrol car is just not an option.
> 
> It would be like buying a stream powered car right on the dawn of the combustion engine, eg totally silly not to wait.



Hi VC, have you heard when the car will arrive? I believe they are building a plant in China, to up the production rate.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Hi VC, have you heard when the car will arrive? I believe they are building a plant in China, to up the production rate.




No, I believe they are servicing the left hand drive markets first, so Australia might be a while.

The last email I got said it would be late 2019.

But, I guess you can expect that, when I placed my order there was 400,000 orders in front of me.

It’s a pretty unique situation, I don’t think any car manufacturer has ever had that number of pre orders,


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> No, I believe they are servicing the left hand drive markets first, so Australia might be a while.
> 
> The last email I got said it would be late 2019.
> 
> ...



At least the deposit wasn't a problem, I think the offerings will be like a smogasboard in a couple of years.


----------



## Not Enough Coffee (20 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I don't think, in Australia, the charging infrastructure will be adequate by 2023.
> Therefore range anxiety, will still be a major issue.
> Just my opinion.




Range anxiety is unnecessary. You can already drive a "lap of the map".  The basis for charging infrastructure is already here.  Take a look at www.plugshare.com and view the Australian map.  Improvements are expected (and still needed) but AEVA (Australian Electric Vehicle Association) have been actively promoting installation of charging points along all major highways.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> 5 years?
> 
> Did you know there is already Tesla’s older than 5 years than have done nearly 1 million Km’s.




Yea, saw a few YT videos of wrecks and massive replacement after a few years. 

Don't the battery only last 8 years before it starts to decline quite rapidly?

Too many electronics can't be good for the OZ sun right? Glass rooftops doesn't help either.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> No, I believe they are servicing the left hand drive markets first, so Australia might be a while.
> 
> The last email I got said it would be late 2019.
> 
> ...




Don't they have a lot of competition coming up? 2020 seem to be the year practically every manufacture will bring a few EV to market.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> At least the deposit wasn't a problem, I think the offerings will be like a smogasboard in a couple of years.



I think the deposit was about $1300 dollars, which is nothing really.

But it’s refundable at any time, but I had been saving for a new new car for years (I am a hyper saver) so the deposit is just really part of my savings plan.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Don't they have a lot of competition coming up? 2020 seem to be the year practically every manufacture will bring a few EV to market.




Maybe, but I want the Tesla. The auto pilot function and the charging network are a huge advantage.

Tesla’s have already driven over a billion miles in autopilot, and with swarm learning they will be miles ahead of any competitor.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2019)

Not Enough Coffee said:


> Range anxiety is unnecessary. You can already drive a "lap of the map".  The basis for charging infrastructure is already here.  Take a look at www.plugshare.com and view the Australian map.  Improvements are expected (and still needed) but AEVA (Australian Electric Vehicle Association) have been actively promoting installation of charging points along all major highways.
> View attachment 91474



Don't be a dick mate, most of those outlets, are limited use, the one in Mandurah W.A is in a public carpark that is usually full of cars.
Even if it is empty it can only cater to two cars, if every flucking car in W.A is electric they will be backed up to the flucking narrows bridge.
This is the problem, everyone says"no problem", that's because no one has one. Jeez Australia is so stupid.l;
What is going on, with common sense in Australia, it is sadly lacking.IMO


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Yea, saw a few YT videos of wrecks and massive replacement after a few years.
> 
> Don't the battery only last 8 years before it starts to decline quite rapidly?
> 
> Too many electronics can't be good for the OZ sun right? Glass rooftops doesn't help either.




Mate, you really need to keep up.

Tesla batteries will outlast the rest of the car, real world testing is showing that the batteries will still have like 90% capacity after over 300,000 miles.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe, but I want the Tesla. The auto pilot function and the charging network are a huge advantage.
> 
> Tesla’s have already driven over a billion miles in autopilot, and with swarm learning they will be miles ahead of any competitor.




Yea, I'm sure for a geek like you it's a well earned reward. A nice cool gadget that drives for you and stuff.

I like stick gear shifts, none of that pedal nonsense by the steering... and preferably V8 with lots of noise.

I'm old and prefer not to read user manual on my car. I can't even bother reading the tips from my iPhone. Just found out you could take a picture holding down the volumn button 

My brother is a bit of a car nut. He was saying that if there's a choice between a BMW EV, or a cheaper Great Wall or Toyota... would people pick a Tesla. 

Might have a point no?

Well, good thing is the pics of their later models looks a lot better than the first generations. Now you can do some stupid fart noise too.


----------



## luutzu (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Mate, you really need to keep up.
> 
> Tesla batteries will outlast the rest of the car, real world testing is showing that the batteries will still have like 90% capacity after over 300,000 miles.




I'm not bashing your Tesla, Musk fanboy. 

Yea, I haven't kept up. So will shut up now.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Mate, you really need to keep up.
> 
> Tesla batteries will outlast the rest of the car, real world testing is showing that the batteries will still have like 90% capacity after over 300,000 miles.



The Tesla is still the yard stick, but delivery is an issue.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Yea, I'm sure for a geek like you.




Haha, Umm... you are talking to a guy who is qualified to jump out of planes, fast rope out of helicopters, pilot assault boats, and has been to Disneyland 5 years in a row (ok maybe that last bit is a bit geeky, but F U haha)

As Elon says, driving a petrol powered car is like riding in a steam train with a side of quiche.

I already resent having to go to the petrol station, it’s such a waste of time, I know I have to go tommorow because my car is on empty, but if I had my model 3, it would be charging now and be full every morning.

How many people here go to the petrol station more than once a day?

Almost no one, with home charging, you will never have to go again, because each day you will start with a full battery.

Then on road trips you just use super chargers.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Yea, I haven't kept up. So will shut up now.




Tesla batteries will last basically forever, eg much longer than the rest of the vehicle.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Don't be a dick mate, most of those outlets, are limited use, the one in Mandurah W.A is in a public carpark that is usually full of cars.
> Even if it is empty it can only cater to two cars, if every flucking car in W.A is electric they will be backed up to the flucking narrows bridge.
> This is the problem, everyone says"no problem", that's because no one has one. Jeez Australia is so stupid.l;
> What is going on, with common sense in Australia, it is sadly lacking.IMO




You won’t need to charge your car outside your home for most of the year, because you just charge at night and start each day with a full battery.

And on road trips, you use the supercharger network, which already covers Brisbane to Adelaide.

The average person has to go to the petrol station every 9 days, with home charging, you will never have to worry about going to a petrol station.

Eg, if you started every day with a full tank of petrol, would you ever go to petrol stations? Of course not.

Except for long distance road trips, which are pretty much covered.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> You won’t need to charge your car outside your home for most of the year, because you just charge at night and start each day with a full battery.
> 
> And on road trips, you use the supercharger network, which already covers Brisbane to Adelaide.
> 
> ...



Come on VC we have been on here for a long time, you know and I know if evreryone was on electric there would be punch ups at outlets.
You have had your car on back order for two years and still don't have it.
You were talking it up two years ago, how many extra outlets have been put in.
I will just google it in W.A.
https://rac.com.au/travel-touring/maps-and-guides/ev-chargers
There you go, if every car has to stop at these outlets for minimum 40minutes, there will be punch ups.
It is just full on muppet talk at this point in time, maybe sometime in the future it will happen, but it wont be next week or next year. IMO


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Come on VC we have been on here for a long time, you know and I know if evreryone was on electric there would be punch ups at outlets.
> You have had your car on back order for two years and still don't have it.
> You were talking it up two years ago, how many extra outlets have been put in.
> I will just google it in W.A.
> ...




Mate do the math,

How many km’s do you drive everyday?

If it’s less than 400, you will never need to go to a charging station, you just charge at home each night, going to the petrol station is old fashioned thinking.

Charging stations are just for road trips, and as I said there is pretty much a national network already.

As the number or electric cars grows, so will the number of charging stations, but we will never need the same number of charging stations as we do petrol stations, and its much easier to install a charging bay than a petrol station.


----------



## Humid (20 January 2019)

A S model pulled up next to me at the lights and I got chatting to the driver
When I mentioned the torque his face lit up and said watch this
Geez no wheel spin no noise just gone.......fast


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2019)

Even the new 2018 Nissan Leaf, will do the 0 _ 100 in 6 seconds. Electric is instant torque, but the battery will run out quickly if you keep flooring it. Lol


----------



## Value Collector (21 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Even the new 2018 Nissan Leaf, will do the 0 _ 100 in 6 seconds. Electric is instant torque, but the battery will run out quickly if you keep flooring it. Lol




So will your fuel tank, at least will electric cars you have regenerative braking, so the people will lead feet aren’t wasting as much energy or brake pads


----------



## qldfrog (21 January 2019)

Funny isnt it that petrolheads are becoming the heros of CC war


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Funny isnt it that petrolheads are becoming the heros of CC war



I think electric vehicles will be forced on the general public, most Countries are legislating the banning of ICE within a time frame.
So I guess there is no point in fighting the inevitable, life goes on, it is just the norm changes.


----------



## qldfrog (22 January 2019)

Do not take me wrong, i am looking forward at getting an electric myself only one i could consider last time i checked was the BMW one.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Eg, if you started every day with a full tank of petrol, would you ever go to petrol stations? Of course not.



A true point - thinking back there would have been three occasions in the past decade when I've used more than a full tank of fuel in a single day.

Where it gets complex however is that there would be rather a lot where there's no current infrastructure with which to charge overnight. Anyone parked on the street in particular has that problem and that's a lot of cars.


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Do not take me wrong, i am looking forward at getting an electric myself only one i could consider last time i checked was the BMW one.



I will be waiting untill they are common place, and the infrastructure is in place to support them.
When I was younger, I was an early up taker, Tandy TRS80 16kb of memory no such thing as the internet, comes to mind.
I will wait untill they are viable, if I'm still here.


----------



## Darc Knight (22 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I will be waiting untill they are common place, and the infrastructure is in place to support them.
> When I was younger, I was an early up taker, Tandy TRS80 16kb of memory no such thing as the internet, comes to mind.
> I will wait untill they are viable, if I'm still here.




Mid to late 80s. Yep, had a Tandy computer. Either that or an Atari Home computer - only two on the market after Commodore. Two giants in the computer market


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2019)

Darc Knight said:


> Mid to late 80s. Yep, had a Tandy computer. Either that or an Atari Home computer - only two on the market after Commodore. Two giants in the computer market



It was before the Atari and Commodre from memory, the only other around at the time I think was a Sinclair ZX81 produced by Timex lol.
When the Commodore came out it was unbelievable, 64K of memory, unbelievable.


----------



## ghotib (22 January 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> A true point - thinking back there would have been three occasions in the past decade when I've used more than a full tank of fuel in a single day.
> 
> Where it gets complex however is that there would be rather a lot where there's no current infrastructure with which to charge overnight. Anyone parked on the street in particular has that problem and that's a lot of cars.



Another true point, and possibly another reason why rising generations won't bother to own their own vehicles.


----------



## PZ99 (22 January 2019)

It's a pity they didn't go with the 70's idea of battery replacement stations like they do with forklifts etc. Much better than charging stations with 40 minute waiting times.

Until electric cars have at least a thousand k range between charges they aren't viable for me.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> It was before the Atari and Commodre from memory, the only other around at the time I think was a Sinclair ZX81 produced by Timex lol.
> When the Commodore came out it was unbelievable, 64K of memory, unbelievable.




No there was the Apple II, my first computer, pretty good for its day, and guess what, they are still in business. 

Commodore built a good machine called the Amiga, pity it didn't catch on.


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> It's a pity they didn't go with the 70's idea of battery replacement stations like they do with forklifts etc. Much better than charging stations with 40 minute waiting times.
> 
> Until electric cars have at least a thousand k range between charges they aren't viable for me.



Range and charge times are definitely the problem, especially when you get away from the Cities.
Even running LPG cars is a problem in Country W.A, so electric will be a nightmare, you can't carry a couple of jerry cans of electricity.
No doubt they will sort it out, but it wont be any time soon. IMO


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> No there was the Apple II, my first computer, pretty good for its day, and guess what, they are still in business.
> 
> Commodore built a good machine called the Amiga, pity it didn't catch on.



We really are showing our age.
Apple have done amazing well, considering Microsoft bailed them out, in the 1990's.


----------



## rederob (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> It's a pity they didn't go with the 70's idea of battery replacement stations like they do with forklifts etc. Much better than charging stations with 40 minute waiting times.
> 
> Until electric cars have at least a thousand k range between charges they aren't viable for me.



You would be an outlier.
My last workplace involved daily travel averaging about 1000km a week, and this would be a doddle with an EV and overnight charging.
Even longer trips with a coffee/recharge break for 15 minutes every 2 hours would comfortably get me Brisbane <> Sydney in most EVs now on the market.
With faster recharging technology being available, and longer-range vehicles hitting the market there is probably going to be a product for 99% of the car market by 2023.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 January 2019)

Diesel or petrol electric hybrids seem to be a good compromise between the extremes until the charging network can be fully established.

They seem to offer the best of both worlds, electric around town, ICE for long trips thus averting range fear.


----------



## Lantern (22 January 2019)

0-60-MPH in 3secs and a ute to boot. I likes this.


----------



## Humid (22 January 2019)

How do they measure the motor capacity for rego?


----------



## Not Enough Coffee (22 January 2019)

Humid said:


> How do they measure the motor capacity for rego?




Cant comment about elsewhere around Oz but in NT current cost to register our Tesla Model S is about the same as a trailer (simply because motor capacity is nil ...Bahaha)

HOWEVER, cost to insure the vehicle (fully comp) is slightly More (as it is considered a "performance vehicle").

Overall combined cost of BOTH Rego & Insurance is approx same as our other vehicle (which is a Mitsubishi Outlander AWD).


----------



## Humid (22 January 2019)

No fuel tax no rego this is not going to end well


----------



## luutzu (22 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Even the new 2018 Nissan Leaf, will do the 0 _ 100 in 6 seconds. Electric is instant torque, but the battery will run out quickly if you keep flooring it. Lol




Yea, even my stupid smart phone gets hot when I watch too much YT.

Given the traffics nowadays, is it wise to be able to go from 0 to 100 or whatever in seconds? 

Theorical vs reality and road condition you know.


----------



## Humid (22 January 2019)

Not Enough Coffee said:


> Cant comment about elsewhere around Oz but in NT current cost to register our Tesla Model S is about the same as a trailer (simply because motor capacity is nil ...Bahaha)
> 
> HOWEVER, cost to insure the vehicle (fully comp) is slightly More (as it is considered a "performance vehicle").
> 
> Overall combined cost of BOTH Rego & Insurance is approx same as our other vehicle (which is a Mitsubishi Outlander AWD).




If their having trouble keeping up with the sales I would shudder sourcing spares.....
In the NT


----------



## Not Enough Coffee (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> It's a pity they didn't go with the 70's idea of battery replacement stations like they do with forklifts etc. Much better than charging stations with 40 minute waiting times.
> 
> Until electric cars have at least a thousand k range between charges they aren't viable for me.





sptrawler said:


> Range and charge times are definitely the problem, especially when you get away from the Cities.
> Even running LPG cars is a problem in Country W.A, so electric will be a nightmare, you can't carry a couple of jerry cans of electricity.
> No doubt they will sort it out, but it wont be any time soon. IMO





Actually in China they ARE doing battery swap stations on vehicles (mainly for fleet vehicles like taxis).  But currently not a practical solution due to cost.

150kW DC Fast Chargers will "Fill" the range on your EV from 0% to 80% in around 30mins.  About the time it takes you to eat lunch.  This Technology exists and has/is being deployed across the country right now.  Current generation of EV's are able to charge their batteries using this technology.

(Tesla Superchargers are about 120kW at moment and upgrading to 180kW soon)

350kW DC Fast Chargers will "Fill" your EV from 0% to 80% in around 9 mins, about the time it might take to buy a coffee.  This technology exists right now and IS AUSTRALIAN TECHNOLOGY (see Tritium in Qld – who are exporting this to the World).  Current generation of EV’s *may* not be able to accept this rate of charge, although future generations certainly will.

Australian Electric Vehicle Association (AEVA) will provide a 32A plug-in socket to ANY Tourism/Remote/Country/Destination Business in Australia.   The business can then arrange self-installation by a qualified electrician and then add/promote their destination to one of the many plugshare style maps currently available.  

Whilst I agree that 100% coverage in every single country/remote location does not currently exist. Nor does it exist for other fuels. There is a LOT of infrastructure already in place and a lot MORE that is CURRENTLY UNDERWAY.  Its just that many people are not even aware of it. 

I live in Alice Springs, I am 1600km from the nearest capital city.  My EV has 400-450km range.  I do NOT have range anxiety. 

My habits mean that I drive 50-120km per day (actually high by most standards as most people would commute less than 50km/day).  If I ever DID run out of energy, then towing the vehicle is an option (just the same as other vehicles) but interestingly the actual process of being towed will regeneratively charge the batteries.

Yes, I have travelled long distances on the highway.  Yes I plan my trips, but the day-to-day benefits FAR outweigh this for me.  

My mindset did need adjusting at first. I do not “Fill-up” my car anymore, rather I “top-up” every night (or every second night) by plugging-in at home.  This process is far more convenient than needing to go the petrol station.

The equivalent fuel cost per km travelled is about 20% cost of my petrol vehicle (not sure how that compares elsewhere in Oz, but for me I am very happy).  Plus, there is virtually nil maintenance.  

The EV revolution is well-underway and further along than many people realize. 

IMO be careful if you buy a “new” ICE vehicle because it *may* be difficult to RESELL that vehicle in 2nd hand market 5-10years in the future. 

That’s my 2c worth.


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2019)

Not Enough Coffee said:


> Actually in China they ARE doing battery swap stations on vehicles (mainly for fleet vehicles like taxis).  But currently not a practical solution due to cost.
> 
> 150kW DC Fast Chargers will "Fill" the range on your EV from 0% to 80% in around 30mins.  About the time it takes you to eat lunch.  This Technology exists and has/is being deployed across the country right now.  Current generation of EV's are able to charge their batteries using this technology.
> 
> ...




That is a good insight, thanks very much.
By the way I doubt Alice is on the interconnected grid, but probably has a decent size Power Station, so charging electric vehicles at 150Kw isn't a problem.
But it would be interesting at Daly Waters or Kulgera, if cars were lined up for a charge.


----------



## basilio (22 January 2019)

Nice contribution NEC.  Many useful facts in that post.
Cheers


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> By the way I doubt Alice is on the interconnected grid, but probably has a decent size Power Station, so charging electric vehicles at 150Kw isn't a problem.



Yep. Not part of any larger grid but has a reasonably sized power station running the town (gas for the record).


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> It's a pity they didn't go with the 70's idea of battery replacement stations like they do with forklifts etc. Much better than charging stations with 40 minute waiting times.
> 
> Until electric cars have at least a thousand k range between charges they aren't viable for me.




When you drive 1000km’s, do you take rest stops to pee and refuel?

If so that’s all the time you need to charge.

if you start will a full battery, you will be able to drive 4.5 hours before you need to charge, then a 15 min charge  charge will get you another 2 hours of driving.

Now I think it is pretty rare for some one to drive 6.5 hours without having at least a 15min break to pee, grab a coffee and fuel their car.

————————-

Not to mention the hours saved each year by charging at home every night.

The average person goes to the petrol station at least once a week, and spends at least 7 mins refueling and paying.

That’s about 6 hours a year that a electric car owner charging at home doesn’t have to do.

So if on a road trip the electric car owner spends an extra 20mins drinking a coffee waiting for his car to charge, it’s not a big deal.

Especially as I said during charging you can use the time to pee, eat lunch, stretch legs etc, because you don’t have to stand there as you do for a petrol car.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

rederob said:


> You would be an outlier.
> My last workplace involved daily travel averaging about 1000km a week, and this would be a doddle with an EV and overnight charging.
> Even longer trips with a coffee/recharge break for 15 minutes every 2 hours would comfortably get me Brisbane <> Sydney in most EVs now on the market.
> With faster recharging technology being available, and longer-range vehicles hitting the market there is probably going to be a product for 99% of the car market by 2023.




Yep,

Sydney to Brisbane is no issue, I do that drive regularly, and I know where all the Tesla superchargers are, And I can tell you that for most people the charging along the way wouldn’t be any more inconvenient than the stops you normally make for your bladder and your stomach.

It would look something like this.

Sydney - port Macquarie 
(15 min charge/ quick pee,stretch)

Port Macquarie - Coffs Harbor
(25 min charge / lunch,stretch)

Coffs harbor - ballina 
(25 min charge / pee, coffee etc)

Ballina - Brisbane
(Charge at destination over night)

I highly doubt most people wouldn’t be stopping for timings close to those already with their petrol car.

I know I do, I usually stop at least twice for fuel + multiple random stops for food, drinks, stretching, bathroom etc etc.


----------



## luutzu (22 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> When you drive 1000km’s, do you take rest stops to pee and refuel?
> 
> If so that’s all the time you need to charge.
> 
> ...




Any thoughts on what to do for those without a garage? 

EV will no doubt be a big part of the car market. There's plenty of people around where I live that park on the streets. And most houses around here don't have a closed garage. 

I've know of water, garden tap water, being stolen at a friend's place 'cause the tap was at the front and some water tradie with a truck came by at night.


----------



## PZ99 (22 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> When you drive 1000km’s, do you take rest stops to pee and refuel?



No I don't need to. It's a single 900k trip from West Sydney to Melbourne and I still have 100ks of fuel left in the car - 8.5 hours at speed limit. Everything's bypassed these days.

If I leave at 3pm I can get there before midnight. An EV doesn't offer that, yet.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Any thoughts on what to do for those without a garage?
> 
> EV will no doubt be a big part of the car market. There's plenty of people around where I live that park on the streets. And most houses around here don't have a closed garage.
> 
> I've know of water, garden tap water, being stolen at a friend's place 'cause the tap was at the front and some water tradie with a truck came by at night.




Check out this video.


There is all sorts of possibilities, take a look at this company in Britain installing charging points on public lamp posts.

Electricity is every where, how and where charging locations develop is only limited by your imagination.

Some one without a way to home charge is still only in the same position as every single petrol car owner today, once a week they will just have to charge some where.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> No I don't need to. It's a single 900k trip from West Sydney to Melbourne and I still have 100ks of fuel left in the car - 8.5 hours at speed limit. Everything's bypassed these days.
> 
> If I leave at 3pm I can get there before midnight. An EV doesn't offer that, yet.




So you drive 9hours without a pee?

I really doubt many people do that, for the 99% of the rest of us, EV’s are perfect.

And as I said, not having to waste 6 hours at petrol stations a year is a big plus also.


----------



## luutzu (22 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Check out this video.
> 
> 
> There is all sorts of possibilities, take a look at this company in Britain installing charging points on public lamp posts.
> ...





That's clever.

I guess Musk is feeling pretty stupid now with all them Tesla charging bays.


----------



## PZ99 (22 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> So you drive 9hours without a pee?



Quite easily. I don't listen to 2GB for starters 



Value Collector said:


> I really doubt many people do that, for the 99% of the rest of us, EV’s are perfect.
> 
> And as I said, not having to waste 6 hours at petrol stations a year is a big plus also.



I don't discount the benefits of EV's. But they're not perfect yet. If they were they would be far cheaper to buy, cheaper to insure, register, and offer my required range without stopping.

I'm interested in a vehicle I can charge in my garage in Sydney and then not be required to recharge until I get to Melbourne. The first EV that does it has a strong selling point over the competition IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> That's clever.
> 
> I guess Musk is feeling pretty stupid now with all them Tesla charging bays.



No, Tesla’s are “super chargers” eg they are for fast charging on road trips etc.

The ones on the lamp posts are what you call “destination chargers”, eg they charge over night while you sleep or throughout the day while your at work etc.

Different charging solutions for different purposes.


----------



## luutzu (22 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> No, Tesla’s are “super chargers” eg they are for fast charging on road trips etc.
> 
> The ones on the lamp posts are what you call “destination chargers”, eg they charge over night while you sleep or throughout the day while your at work etc.
> 
> Different charging solutions for different purposes.




Wait, you can't leave a cable kit charging in the street like that can you? 

But yea, true that they'll come up with something. 

Exciting. Like going rom VHS to DVD to now Netflix.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I'm interested in a vehicle I can charge in my garage in Sydney and then not be required to recharge until I get to Melbourne. The first EV that does it has a strong selling point over the competition IMO.




That’s a pretty niche request, most petrol cars wouldn’t even do that, and as I said, most people wouldn’t want to either.


----------



## PZ99 (22 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> That’s a pretty niche request, most petrol cars wouldn’t even do that, and as I said, most people wouldn’t want to either.



The traffic on the Hume Hwy suggests otherwise


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Wait, you can't leave a cable kit charging in the street like that can you?




That is the way that system is designed, but as I said there is limitless ways to do it, electricity networks are every where, and for the most part people will charge at home or work, and then at charging stations on road trips.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> The traffic on the Hume Hwy suggests otherwise




You think most travelers on the Hume aren’t stopping for 9hours???

I am not suggesting people don’t travel long distances, I do travel all the time doing Brisbane Sydney.

I am just saying the average car owner isn’t doing canon ball runs 9 hours non stop.

Most would be stopping for periods of 10- 15 mins at least every 3 hours, and that fits in perfectly with charging.


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2019)

The problem I see is, when someone pulls up at a servo in a Country town, even if al four pumps are being used it is only minutes before one is free.
With electric, the sit time will be longer and if the servo isn't on the grid, they probably wont have a fast charger.


----------



## PZ99 (22 January 2019)

@Value Collector most people doing that run stop once at Holbrook or Tarcutta. They pass me around Gundagai then pass me again after Albury. They're not stopping every 3 hours.


----------



## luutzu (22 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The problem I see is, when someone pulls up at a servo in a Country town, even if al four pumps are being used it is only minutes before one is free.
> With electric, the sit time will be longer and if the servo isn't on the grid, they probably wont have a fast charger.




It's possible that eventually EVs will have solar cells on their roof, charging as they drive/park during the day.

Looks like the investment in solar tech is just starting to pick up. The scale of the R&D are nowhere near the search for fossil.


----------



## PZ99 (22 January 2019)

If EVs have solar panels on their roof you can park under a street lamp at night for your top up


----------



## PZ99 (22 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The problem I see is, when someone pulls up at a servo in a Country town, even if al four pumps are being used it is only minutes before one is free.
> With electric, the sit time will be longer and if the servo isn't on the grid, they probably wont have a fast charger.



Yep, I would've liked the idea of induction coils on EV's - you could charge it in the carpark or even at a red light LOL


----------



## luutzu (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> If EVs have solar panels on their roof you can park under a street lamp at night for your top up




That would be pretty awesome.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The problem I see is, when someone pulls up at a servo in a Country town, even if al four pumps are being used it is only minutes before one is free.
> With electric, the sit time will be longer and if the servo isn't on the grid, they probably wont have a fast charger.




Charging bays can be literally every where, they don’t need to be manned, and can be set up very easily,

Eg, every rest stop along the highways could have a few bays installed, cafes and road houses could install some bays to attract travelers, regular service stations could put some bays in.

The more ev’s that come on the market the more incentive there is for the market to provide charging locations.

In general Tesla has installed more charging bays than required, most sit empty all the time.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> If EVs have solar panels on their roof you can park under a street lamp at night for your top up




You actually couldn’t, no where near enough power.


----------



## PZ99 (22 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> You actually couldn’t, no where near enough power.



That was a joke mate


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> @Value Collector most people doing that run stop once at Holbrook or Tarcutta. They pass me around Gundagai then pass me again after Albury. They're not stopping every 3 hours.




You could do that drive on one charge stop if you really wanted to, but most people naturally make more than one stop.


----------



## Value Collector (22 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> That was a joke mate



I have heard enough people make serious claims like that, that it is worth pointing out it’s not possible.

Hence why they don’t put solar panels on cars, except for as a gimmick.


----------



## rederob (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> @Value Collector most people doing that run stop once at Holbrook or Tarcutta. They pass me around Gundagai then pass me again after Albury. They're not stopping every 3 hours.



Your "*most people*" is an exceptionally small part of the driving public.
Driving long distances without decent breaks is proven to be dangerous.
I am pleased to not be sharing the road with you.
The good news is that driverless cars are on their way and will reduce the chance of accidents in the not too distant future.


----------



## Value Collector (23 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The problem I see is, when someone pulls up at a servo in a Country town, even if al four pumps are being used it is only minutes before one is free.
> With electric, the sit time will be longer and if the servo isn't on the grid, they probably wont have a fast charger.




Tesla isn’t shy about installing large charging stations.

Flick through this video and look at the size of this charging location.

It would put a lot of service stations to shame.

If an area needs capacity, they will install it.


----------



## luutzu (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> That was a joke mate




What? No way.


----------



## luutzu (23 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I have heard enough people make serious claims like that, that it is worth pointing out it’s not possible.
> 
> Hence why they don’t put solar panels on cars, except for as a gimmick.




Not the current panels and tech. But I'm definitely sure there's a few team around the world working on it though.


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2019)

rederob said:


> Your "*most people*" is an exceptionally small part of the driving public.
> Driving long distances without decent breaks is proven to be dangerous.
> I am pleased to not be sharing the road with you.
> The good news is that driverless cars are in their way and will reduce the chance of accidents.



The good news is you won't be sharing the road with me if you're sitting in a queue waiting for an available charge bay whilst I'm driving at the speed limit with a 35 year driving history of no accidents or traffic infringements. 

W-a-a-a-y ahead of you rederob


----------



## rederob (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> The good news is you won't be sharing the road with me if you're sitting in a queue waiting for an available charge bay whilst I'm driving at the speed limit with a 35 year driving history of no accidents or traffic infringements.
> 
> W-a-a-a-y ahead of you rederob



I knew long distance truck drivers with "perfect records".
A few of these also happened to not make it home occasionally.
I work off data, not luck.


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2019)

rederob said:


> I knew long distance truck drivers with "perfect records".
> A few of these also happened to not make it home occasionally.
> I work off data, not luck.



How accurate is your data ?


----------



## rederob (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> How accurate is your data ?



Obituary columns are pretty reliable.
Although a friend of mine is one of those police officers who has to attend accident scenes and determine probable cause leading to deaths.  The trucking industry's resistance to mandating  electronic logging has not been helpful.


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2019)

rederob said:


> Obituary columns are pretty reliable.
> Although a friend of mine is one of those police officers who has to attend accident scenes and determine probable cause leading to deaths.  The trucking industry's resistance to mandating  electronic logging has not been helpful.



And yet... these people are :quote: an *exceptionally* small part of the driving public


----------



## Not Enough Coffee (23 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> That is a good insight, thanks very much.
> By the way I doubt Alice is on the interconnected grid, but probably has a decent size Power Station, so charging electric vehicles at 150Kw isn't a problem.
> But it would be interesting at Daly Waters or Kulgera, if cars were lined up for a charge.




Yes you are right Alice is not on the interconnected grid.  We have Diesel & Gas Fired Generators providing the majority of power needs.  We also have 4MW Solar Farm & the government recently commissioned a 3.8MWh Battery to assist with peak lopping and frequency stability.  With over 70MW peak capacity, yeah agree DC charging in Alice wont be an issue.

Remote locations (like Kulgera, Daly Waters etc) do have own Diesel Generators, but they would likely need battery storage to facilitate DC Fast charging at 150kW.  If battery storage is installed, then exisiting generators and/or solar power can be used to trickle charge/store energy in the battery and fast charge vehicles using DC as needed.


----------



## rederob (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> And yet... these people are :quote: an *exceptionally* small part of the driving public



Yes, a an exceptionally small part of the driving public are disproportionately involved in vehicle deaths and injuries.


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2019)

rederob said:


> Yes, a an exceptionally small part of the driving public are disproportionately involved in vehicle deaths and injuries.




Your article says "Available Australian evidence suggests that in approximately 80 per cent of fatal multiple vehicle crashes involving heavy trucks, fault is not assigned to the
heavy truck. Note however that assignment of fault (or key vehicle status) is not necessarily feasible for all crashes."

That sounds more like luck than data to me. I'm not driving a truck so I'm not contributing to your data or luck. I'm driving a car that can do around 1000k's without a stop and I'm looking for an EV that can do the same. 

Until then... 

be happy to continue sharing the road with people who do cause crashes instead of me


----------



## rederob (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Your article says "Available Australian evidence suggests that in approximately 80 per cent of fatal multiple vehicle crashes involving heavy trucks, fault is not assigned to the
> heavy truck. Note however that assignment of fault (or key vehicle status) is not necessarily feasible for all crashes."
> 
> That sounds more like luck than data to me. I'm not driving a truck so I'm not contributing to your data or luck. I'm driving a car that can do around 1000k's without a stop and I'm looking for an EV that can do the same.
> ...



I cannot definitively prove that some people who I knew and were smokers died from cancer caused by their cigarettes. 
I can infer from the data that smoking was a probable contributory factor.
The effects of fatigue are proven, and early fatigue warning devices for vehicles are available and probably should be mandated for professional drivers.
If your driving habits contribute to fatigue, as it appears you seldom take rests, then despite what you might think the data make you disproportionately more dangerous to share the road with.


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2019)

rederob said:


> I cannot definitively prove that some people who I knew and were smokers died from cancer caused by their cigarettes.
> I can infer from the data that smoking was a probable contributory factor.
> The effects of fatigue are proven, and early fatigue warning devices for vehicles are available and probably should be mandated for professional drivers.
> If your driving habits contribute to fatigue, as it appears you seldom take rests, then despite what you might think the data make you disproportionately more dangerous to share the road with.



If you can't prove that smokers died from cancer because they smoked then you're not working from data - you're working from probability.

My driving habits don't contribute to fatigue - if they did I wouldn't be driving.
Maybe it's a fitness thing? Or competent driving? I drive for 9 hours because I'm fit to do so.
I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, drive whilst texting, or speed, or road rage or drive fatigued.

People who do the above are disproportionately more dangerous than me and the data overwhelmingly backs that up. If you share the road with them you're working with luck.


----------



## rederob (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> If you can't prove that smokers died from cancer because they smoked then you're not working from data - you're working from probability.
> 
> My driving habits don't contribute to fatigue - if they did I wouldn't be driving.
> Maybe it's a fitness thing? Or competent driving? I drive for 9 hours because I'm fit to do so.
> ...



It's wonderful that you think you are an exception to the rule.
There are other drivers who think as you.
And there are some no more.
(I agree that there are more probable causes of accidents, as you rightly point out.  But *fatigue* is always in the top 5 likely factors.  As an aside, my brother in law was a truckie and he took drugs to stay awake.  He literally swore he would be dead today if he did not. I don't have the multi-millions of kilometres of driving to doubt him.)


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2019)

rederob said:


> It's wonderful that you think you are an exception to the rule.
> There are other drivers who think as you.
> And there are some no more.
> (I agree that there are more probable causes of accidents, as you rightly point out.  But *fatigue* is always in the top 5 likely factors.  As an aside, my brother in law was a truckie and he took drugs to stay awake.  He literally swore he would be dead today if he did not. I don't have the multi-millions of kilometres of driving to doubt him.)



I don't deny fatigue is a factor - but like I said - I don't drive if I'm fatigued. So I'm fit to drive.

I'm glad your brother in law was lucky - if he took drugs to stay awake he wasn't fit to drive.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 January 2019)

> As an aside, my brother in law was a truckie and he took drugs to stay awake. He literally swore he would be dead today if he did not. I don't have the multi-millions of kilometres of driving to doubt him.)




There is something wrong in the trucking industry if this sort of thing still happens.

I thought that there was going to be a crackdown on log books etc.


----------



## sptrawler (23 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> There is something wrong in the trucking industry if this sort of thing still happens.
> 
> I thought that there was going to be a crackdown on log books etc.



I think it is still hard to earn a decent income, if you don't put in the Klm's, in the trucking business. From talking to a friend who did it for a while, it isn't a lot of fun, but some enjoy it.


----------



## rederob (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> pasted below with comments in *blue*



If you can't prove that smokers died from cancer because they smoked then you're not working from data - you're working from probability.  *Probability cannot be calculated without data.  That's why it cannot be assumed that people who think they can drive for long periods without being fatigued are defying what we know about the probability of becoming fatigued.*

My driving habits don't contribute to fatigue - if they did I wouldn't be driving. *Personal assessments of ability do not constitute evidence.*
Maybe it's a fitness thing? Or competent driving? I drive for 9 hours because I'm fit to do so. *And my point from the outset was that your belief does not stop people sharing your notion from dying in an accident.*
I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, drive whilst texting, or speed, or road rage or drive fatigued. *And you probably are a better driver overall than many on the road - but that is not my case. *

People who do the above are disproportionately more dangerous than me and the data overwhelmingly backs that up. *True* If you share the road with them you're working with luck.  *None of us usually get to know until it's too late, and that's the nub of my argument.*

*As one of many men who drive, and once thought I was bullet proof because I thought like you, I can say with with no pride that I was delusional.*


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2019)

rederob said:


> Probability cannot be calculated without data. That's why it cannot be assumed that people who think they can drive for long periods without being fatigued are defying what we know about the probability of becoming fatigued.



People assume that surviving a long distance drive without fatigue are going against the odds.
By saying that assumption cannot be made you're merely agreeing with my point.
Assumptions and correct interpretation of data are worlds apart.



rederob said:


> Personal assessments of ability do not constitute evidence.



They are a vital part of decision making.
Assessments from people who you've never met add little value.




rederob said:


> And my point from the outset was that your belief does not stop people sharing your notion from dying in an accident.



That's a double edged sword. Many people not sharing my notion die in accidents.




rederob said:


> None of us usually get to know until it's too late, and that's the nub of my argument.



That's a failure of judgement derived from personal choice. There are many people who shouldn't be on the road for any length of time or distance. See below.



rederob said:


> As one of many men who drive, and once thought I was bullet proof because I thought like you, I can say with with no pride that I was delusional.



I don't think I'm bulletproof. I assess what a task requires, assemble it, and do it.
Some people can drive for 9 hours - some can't. Delusional are people who pretend to be something they're not.

Prince Phillip was obviously delusional. He was spotted driving _after_ that accident.


----------



## rederob (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> People assume that surviving a long distance drive without fatigue are going against the odds.
> By saying that assumption cannot be made you're merely agreeing with my point.
> Assumptions and correct interpretation of data are worlds apart.
> 
> ...



I cannot argue against much of your logic because there was not too much there.
So that's it from me.


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2019)

Thanks. I'm actually more interested in the topic and one of my fears of street EV charging is the price gouging by the power companies leading to an exorbitant cost of a recharge/top up - especially if there's a shortage of available electricity on a 50 degree day.

So I will be far more comfortable with an EV that I can charge up in Sydney and then drive to Melbourne without stopping for a top up. All it needs is a bigger battery and/or better efficiency.


----------



## sptrawler (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Thanks. I'm actually more interested in the topic and one of my fears of street EV charging is the price gouging by the power companies leading to an exorbitant cost of a recharge/top up - especially if there's a shortage of available electricity on a 50 degree day.
> 
> So I will be far more comfortable with an EV that I can charge up in Sydney and then drive to Melbourne without stopping for a top up. All it needs is a bigger battery and/or better efficiency.



I compare it to buying my latest car, I was going to buy a new Mustang(old life crisis, pension hunting lol), however because it doesn't have a spare wheel I didn't buy it.
I bought a different vehicle instead, I still travel long distances on roads that don't have mobile coverage, the thought of hitch hiking and leaving the car, while you go to the next Town on the hope they have a tyre turned me off.
Same reason as when I bought a car that ran on lpg, in the past, I bought dual fuel. There was plenty of Towns that didn't have lpg and some that did, but the shop closed at midday Saturday untill Monday morning.
I guess there are plenty who will buy electric, and it may suit there lifestyle, it just wont fit with mine for a while.


----------



## basilio (23 January 2019)

It is going to interesting to see how top ups for  EV cars are priced. There are all sorts of prices possible . At some stage the government will want to put a tax on it as well as excise duties  fall.

Could be all sorts of opportunities..


----------



## basilio (23 January 2019)

I wonder at the effect of super fast (150 kw/300kw ) charges on the battery packs of EV cars ? That is a lot of energy going in very quickly.


----------



## sptrawler (23 January 2019)

basilio said:


> It is going to interesting to see how top ups for  EV cars are priced. There are all sorts of prices possible . At some stage the government will want to put a tax on it as well as excise duties  fall.
> 
> Could be all sorts of opportunities..



The charging station at Mandurah in W.A, operated by the RAC, charge 45c/KW


----------



## PZ99 (23 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The charging station at Mandurah in W.A, operated by the RAC, charge 45c/KW



By my calculations that's around $8 per 100km - happy to be corrected.


----------



## Value Collector (23 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Not the current panels and tech. But I'm definitely sure there's a few team around the world working on it though.




If panels could become a lot more efficient maybe, and a lot cheaper.

There is an ev that has a solar panel on the roof, But you would have to have it parked in the sun for about a month to get a full charge.


----------



## Value Collector (23 January 2019)

PZ99 said:


> By my calculations that's around $8 per 100km - happy to be corrected.




Around $6.5 per 100km by my calculation.

But that’s super expensive, Tesla supercharges are free if you get the model s or x, and be 30cents per kw, but this is not representative of running costs, eg as I said most people we be charging at home, using offpeak power or maybe even solar panels.

Agl even have a $1 per day charging plan, that’s unlimited driving for $7 a week.


----------



## Value Collector (23 January 2019)

basilio said:


> I wonder at the effect of super fast (150 kw/300kw ) charges on the battery packs of EV cars ? That is a lot of energy going in very quickly.




It’s not as much as you think, the “big battery pack” in cars is just made up of many small batteries.

The battery packs are wired to charge all the small batteries simultaneously, just like your phone battery can charge in 40mins with no issue, all of the small batteries in the pack can charge in 40mins, if you spread the charge across them equally.

You don’t have to blast any individual cell if you have engineered he battery correctly for fast charging.


----------



## luutzu (23 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> If panels could become a lot more efficient maybe, and a lot cheaper.
> 
> There is an ev that has a solar panel on the roof, But you would have to have it parked in the sun for about a month to get a full charge.




In the future. The glorious future comrade.

But personally, if I were to run the world, I'd favoured mass transit. 

Beside logistics, freight and the trades, most people do not do a lot of travelling that they'd need a private car.

But that's another story.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> Wait, you can't leave a cable kit charging in the street like that can you?



It’s already done in France and seems to work. 

Cars parked on the street plugged in to charge overnight.


----------



## qldfrog (24 January 2019)

Noticed the presence of charger in many places in France even in the most remote places in the middle of nowhere,i mean it.i was so surprised i took a picture.i believe a move by this dying village to attract tourism.anyway..
Yet i do not remember seing many electric cars there
Here, in Shenzhen China, electric cars everywhere, taxis buses, mopeds,any single or 2 wheels contraption you can think of
And i have no clue where they are recharged.probably home


----------



## Joules MM1 (24 January 2019)

flying cars



January 24, 2019 / 8:21 AM / Updated 2 hours ago

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...6903&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter


----------



## Value Collector (24 January 2019)

luutzu said:


> In the future. The glorious future comrade.
> 
> But personally, if I were to run the world, I'd favoured mass transit.
> 
> ...




There is definately a place for public transport, and many places to expand it, but I couldn’t do without my personal car, There is just to much freedom to be had.

Maybe a public fleet of on demand point to point autonomous vehicles might replace personal ownership of cars, but buses and trams won’t.

If I could afford a private jet, you wouldn’t see me on a qantas flight that’s for sure.

So given that a car is cheap, and I can afford one, you won’t see me on a bus, except maybe when traveling overseas.

But I do catch the train sometimes when I know I will be to drunk to drive.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 January 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Noticed the presence of charger in many places in France even in the most remote places in the middle of nowhere



Riding (I suppose that's the correct term?) a Segway in Austria and it came with an extension lead "just in case".

I thought that was a tad pointless, in the event the battery ran flat where was I going to plug it in and recharge it?

Well I noticed that there were indeed quite a few power points in public places I could have used if need be. In practice no issue though since they have a pretty decent range.

PS - Never ride one of those up a 45 degree slope trying to push it to the limit. The machine copes yes but if one wheel slips then you'll know it oh yes you will. I recall it very well - me flying backwards through the air and being overtaken by the machine heading down the hill. Ended up lying flat on my back looking at the sky - no injuries, just some free entertainment for others in the park watching.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> There is definately a place for public transport, and many places to expand it, but I couldn’t do without my personal car, There is just to much freedom to be had.




Any sign of your Tesla yet ?


----------



## sptrawler (25 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Any sign of your Tesla yet ?



I was thinking of asking the same question, they must be getting close.


----------



## sptrawler (25 January 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Riding (I suppose that's the correct term?) a Segway in Austria and it came with an extension lead "just in case".
> 
> I thought that was a tad pointless, in the event the battery ran flat where was I going to plug it in and recharge it?
> 
> ...



At least you had the guts to ride one. 
I was offered a ride and chickened out, two replaced knees and one replaced hip. I thought, if I come of that thing, they would be putting my bits in a garbage bag.


----------



## Joules MM1 (25 January 2019)

Joules MM1 said:


> flying cars
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## qldfrog (26 January 2019)

At the bottom of a residential building in Shenzhen today..
Basically afraid of people free charging


----------



## DB008 (26 January 2019)

I saw a great Youtube video recently talking about ICE (Internal Combustion Engines) vs EV (Electric Vehicles) trends and forecasts. Exactly what this thread is about.

Yes, it only the opinion of 2 people, but it was really good to get other people's opinions. I recommend watching it

​

This is a screenshot from the above cast




​


----------



## basilio (26 January 2019)

Very interesting.  I think the question about the future of mechanics is significant.  There is far less to go wrong with an electric car.  In fact one of the problems for manufacturers will be the ongoing loss of revenue from spare part sales as ICE cars  decrease in the market place.


----------



## sptrawler (26 January 2019)

basilio said:


> Very interesting.  I think the question about the future of mechanics is significant.  There is far less to go wrong with an electric car.  In fact one of the problems for manufacturers will be the ongoing loss of revenue from spare part sales as ICE cars  decrease in the market place.



This is a major issue, that I think the car manufacturers and Governments are very aware of, not only mechanics but radiator, gearbox, oil suppliers, coolant suppliers.

Another issue that hasn't been mentioned yet is, when autonomous vehicles vehicles are fully functional, cars will no longer need to be made of metal.
There wont be accidents, therefore the safety requirement reduces considerably and autonomous, electric vehicles could quite easily be made from reinforced recycled plastic.

Also when self driving cars become the norm, those who live in a City, probably wouldn't need a car. 
They could probably pay an annual fee and just call up a car. 
The car arrives, takes you to you work or where ever, you get out the car. It waits for the next nearby call, a bit like a more efficient Uber.
Interesting times coming. First step 5G coverage.


----------



## Value Collector (26 January 2019)

basilio said:


> Very interesting.  I think the question about the future of mechanics is significant.  There is far less to go wrong with an electric car.  In fact one of the problems for manufacturers will be the ongoing loss of revenue from spare part sales as ICE cars  decrease in the market place.




The demand for mechanics will slowly decrease, and so will the supply.

The market will take care of its self.


----------



## Value Collector (26 January 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Any sign of your Tesla yet ?




Not due till the end of the year.

Tesla is focusing on left hand drive vehicles first.

They have been making loads deliveries in the USA, Canada and some other countries, But Australia will be at the tail end, not to mention there was 400,000 orders infront of me, and at 5000 cars per week, that order book takes some time to work through.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 January 2019)

sptrawler said:


> autonomous, electric vehicles could quite easily be made from reinforced recycled plastic.



But hopefully not in any way like the Trabant which was indeed made of plastic.

It's a former East German car. Lots of fun to drive, in a strange way, since nothing works the same way it works in any other car. It has no "features" of any sort, the engine is a two cylinder job about 600cc and it's a two stroke.

Best of all, the fuel tank is conveniently mounted under the bonnet directly behind the engine. In the event that you did have an accident (not out of the question given the brakes aren't particularly effective) you'd be wanting to get out of the car real quick I'd think.

Lots of fun though.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Not due till the end of the year.
> 
> Tesla is focusing on left hand drive vehicles first.
> 
> They have been making loads deliveries in the USA, Canada and some other countries, But Australia will be at the tail end, not to mention there was 400,000 orders infront of me, and at 5000 cars per week, that order book takes some time to work through.




Lucky your car is not being built in Russia.


----------



## bellenuit (27 January 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> But hopefully not in any way like the Trabant which was indeed made of plastic.




I didn't know that. I always assumed it was a heavy vehicle.

There used be a story going around when I lived in West Berlin, I don't know if it was an urban myth, that the DDR (GDR) measured the productivity of their white goods factories by the weight of production output. So, in order to meet targets, every year many factories just increased the weight of the white goods they produced without any change to the functionality of the products.


----------



## sptrawler (27 January 2019)

bellenuit said:


> I didn't know that. I always assumed it was a heavy vehicle.
> 
> There used be a story going around when I lived in West Berlin, I don't know if it was an urban myth, that the DDR (GDR) measured the productivity of their white goods factories by the weight of production output. So, in order to meet targets, every year many factories just increased the weight of the white goods they produced without any change to the functionality of the products.



I certainly hope the quality has improved.
In the early 1970's a mate of mine, went from Kal to Melbourne to buy a Ural, they were $650 for a 650cc, he said stuff it i'll get one and drive it back.
The Nullabor was dirt from Penong to the W.A border back then, well to cut a long story short, we had to take a ute out and pick him up.
All the spokes had broken.


----------



## basilio (27 January 2019)

An engineer who tore down a Tesla Model 3


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 January 2019)

bellenuit said:


> I didn't know that. I always assumed it was a heavy vehicle.



What I read about it said that the panels were all plastic but it's built on a steel chassis.

Tapping on the panels and yep they sounded like they're plastic or at least something that's not metal. I can't confirm the bit about the chassis but presumably that's the case.

This thread prompted a bit of research online and it seems that someone has indeed modified one to electric power. Wonders never cease.....


----------



## noirua (28 January 2019)

Maybe waste plastics and worn out tyres to Hydrogen will start to put a dampener on electric car production:


----------



## Value Collector (28 January 2019)

bellenuit said:


> I didn't know that. I always assumed it was a heavy vehicle.
> 
> There used be a story going around when I lived in West Berlin, I don't know if it was an urban myth, that the DDR (GDR) measured the productivity of their white goods factories by the weight of production output. So, in order to meet targets, every year many factories just increased the weight of the white goods they produced without any change to the functionality of the products.




I know an importer who buys baby clothes in China by the kilogram.

Eg $x for 100kg of socks.


----------



## Value Collector (28 January 2019)

noirua said:


> Maybe waste plastics and worn out tyres to Hydrogen will start to put a dampener on electric car production:





Hydrogen cars are actually still electric cars, both cars use electric motors to power the drive chain.

The only difference is one powers the motors with a battery, and the other powers the motor with an electric current created by a fuel cell powered by a tank of compressed hydrogen.

The two cars will be identical in all respects except one has a battery connected to the drive chain, where as the other has a tank of compressed gas and a fuel cell to convert that compressed gas to electricity.


----------



## noirua (29 January 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Hydrogen cars are actually still electric cars, both cars use electric motors to power the drive chain.
> 
> The only difference is one powers the motors with a battery, and the other powers the motor with an electric current created by a fuel cell powered by a tank of compressed hydrogen.
> 
> The two cars will be identical in all respects except one has a battery connected to the drive chain, where as the other has a tank of compressed gas and a fuel cell to convert that compressed gas to electricity.




*Electric Cars vs. Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars*
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/electric-cars-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars.htm
Most people know by now what an electric car is. It's a car that runs on a battery-powered electric motor. Unlike most cars on the road today, it lacks an internal combustion engine and uses electricity as its fuel rather than gasoline. Because it doesn't burn fossil fuels to make itself run, it doesn't produce any pollution while it's in operation. This, at least in theory, makes electric cars a very green form of transportation.

But what in the world is a hydrogen fuel cell car? It's also a kind of electric car. It runs on a motor powered by electricity. What makes it different from a battery-electric vehicle (or BEV) is where the electricity comes from. Instead of a battery, a hydrogen fuel cell car has, well, a hydrogen fuel cell. This is a device that takes hydrogen, the most abundant element in the universe, and generates electricity from it while the car is running. In effect, a hydrogen fuel cell is a kind of battery that makes electricity on the fly.


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2019)

noirua said:


> *Electric Cars vs. Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars*
> https://auto.howstuffworks.com/electric-cars-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars.htm
> Most people know by now what an electric car is. It's a car that runs on a battery-powered electric motor. Unlike most cars on the road today, it lacks an internal combustion engine and uses electricity as its fuel rather than gasoline. Because it doesn't burn fossil fuels to make itself run, it doesn't produce any pollution while it's in operation. This, at least in theory, makes electric cars a very green form of transportation.
> 
> But what in the world is a hydrogen fuel cell car? It's also a kind of electric car. It runs on a motor powered by electricity. What makes it different from a battery-electric vehicle (or BEV) is where the electricity comes from. Instead of a battery, a hydrogen fuel cell car has, well, a hydrogen fuel cell. This is a device that takes hydrogen, the most abundant element in the universe, and generates electricity from it while the car is running. In effect, a hydrogen fuel cell is a kind of battery that makes electricity on the fly.




Yep, pretty much says exactly what I said.

eg, Hydrogen cars are electric cars, that use compressed hydrogen tanks and a fuel cell instead of a battery.


----------



## qldfrog (29 January 2019)

Int


noirua said:


> Maybe waste plastics and worn out tyres to Hydrogen will start to put a dampener on electric car production:




Interesting link


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2019)

Here is a detailed analysis of hydrogen vs battery vehicles for any one interested.


----------



## sptrawler (30 January 2019)

Very good video VC.


----------



## rederob (31 January 2019)

This report predicts global BEV sales will hit 4 million in 2020, 12 million in 2025 and 21 million in 2030.
I reckon they have underestimated the market massively.
Time will tell.


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2019)

Not electric and not a car, but an autonomous motorbike, things certainly are moving along.

https://mashable.com/video/autonomous-motorcycle-bmw-safety-research/#teY99POJvZq3


----------



## basilio (7 February 2019)

Not an electric car but an electric long distance  touring bicycle.
I was going shopping recently and saw this rig parked outside the supermarket.
Just had to wait and have a chat with the owner/(builder).
The trailer holds around 400kilo of supplies including its own weight.
The bike  has at least two electric motors and 3 batteries.
Runs at 50-60kph (I was told..). Range of 200 k !!  WTF

Currently travelling around around Australia. The owner has already gone 3000 k
	

		
			
		

		
	






	

		
			
		

		
	
 .
Can you work out how this guy can get a 200k range on this beast?


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2019)

Those front and back wheel electric motors are pretty big 750 to 1000W each, and the battery behind the seat is only about 15 to 20 A/Hr, so he must have a battery in the trailer. Also he has a small generator in the trailer.
Over the front wheel, I would guess he has both electric wheel controllers and light luggage, as the suspension isn't compressed very much.
Just my opinion.
Actually on closer inspection, it looks like the same electric bike as mine, I will have to go and take a picture to check.
The difference is his, has replacement wheels with bigger motors.


----------



## basilio (7 February 2019)

Spot on  (I think..) He runs the generator to keep up charge to the batteries. I don't know the ins and outs of the machine . We had a conversation and I tried to remember the salient points.


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2019)

Yes, I think it is a heavily modified one of these, if you look at the rear swinging arm and frame geometry.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/OTTO-El...c9qLXZKXkYh62oKgvvQw:rk:2:pf:1&frcectupt=true


----------



## Ann (25 February 2019)

This is a very grim news article given the driver died. A Tesla hit a tree and burst into flames. Obviously there has been no reason given as to why but further down in the article there is a mention of Lithium batteries. If they are this flammable I would be very concerned about having big banks of lithium batteries in my home, also I am not all that excited by EVs now if they are going to ignite so violently.
*Tesla Slams Into Tree In Florida, Bursting Into Flames And Killing Driver*
_......Recall that in May of this year, two teens were killed after their Tesla sped into a wall in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. That crash caused the car's electric engine to catch fire. After that crash, the National Transportation Safety Board found that the Tesla's lithium ion battery, which was the source of the fire, reignited twice._


----------



## Lantern (25 February 2019)

This looks interesting. Heading for Oz too.



https://reneweconomy.com.au/amazon-backed-rivian-targets-australia-for-electric-utes-40658/


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 February 2019)

Ann said:


> If they are this flammable I would be very concerned about having big banks of lithium batteries in my home, also I am not all that excited by EVs now if they are going to ignite so violently.



My thought is that with sufficient production and operating experience the hazards could likely be mitigated by design improvements. Clearly that hasn't been achieved yet but I don't see any fundamental reason why it couldn't be.

Diesel is somewhat safe, it just burns and it's not overly easy to ignite, but the explosive force of a full tank of petrol or LPG mixed with air is enough to bring a decent sized building down. And yet we have millions of cars carrying exactly that and with very few incidents involving a fuel explosion or even fire.

Over the years some highly dangerous petrol powered cars did exist, they'd burst into flames quite easily in an accident, and some of the earlier gas powered buses had a tendency to randomly burst into flames in normal use (has happened in Australia more than once) but the knowledge gained was applied to future vehicles to avoid that problem.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2019)

Didn't a few lithium batteries in computers burst into flame in the past ?

I know it's dangerous to overcharge them, but other factors can cause them to explode.

https://www.howtogeek.com/338762/why-do-lithium-ion-batteries-explode/


----------



## Ann (25 February 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> My thought is that with sufficient production and operating experience the hazards could likely be mitigated by design improvements. Clearly that hasn't been achieved yet but I don't see any fundamental reason why it couldn't be.
> 
> Diesel is somewhat safe, it just burns and it's not overly easy to ignite, but the explosive force of a full tank of petrol or LPG mixed with air is enough to bring a decent sized building down. And yet we have millions of cars carrying exactly that and with very few incidents involving a fuel explosion or even fire.
> 
> Over the years some highly dangerous petrol powered cars did exist, they'd burst into flames quite easily in an accident, and some of the earlier gas powered buses had a tendency to randomly burst into flames in normal use (has happened in Australia more than once) but the knowledge gained was applied to future vehicles to avoid that problem.




Yes, actually using something tends to be the only way to find the flaws. I think I might just sit back for a while and let them sort it.
I have seen more than one VW burst into flames in the past. One reason I never bought a bug, even though I was taught and got my driver's license in one.



SirRumpole said:


> Didn't a few lithium batteries in computers burst into flame in the past ?
> 
> I know it's dangerous to overcharge them, but other factors can cause them to explode.
> 
> https://www.howtogeek.com/338762/why-do-lithium-ion-batteries-explode/




So if the anode and cathode touch (as could happen if the battery is damaged in an accident then there can be negative consequences. Interesting thank you for the link that explains it. Unlikely for a fixed stationary bank of batteries in a house to explode but a far greater risk with something which is at risk of collision, as in an EV.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2019)

The humble spud and CSIRO, to the rescue. lol
It sounds as though Australia's CSIRO, has come up with new fast charging system, they aren't giving much away obviously. 
https://www.drive.com.au/news/csiro...ign=tile-2&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=smh


----------



## SirRumpole (1 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The humble spud and CSIRO, to the rescue. lol
> It sounds as though Australia's CSIRO, has come up with new fast charging system, they aren't giving much away obviously.
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/csiro...ign=tile-2&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=smh




This is April 1 isn't it ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> This is April 1 isn't it ?



Absolutely and the brilliance of this is that Origin Energy will be able to take some of these potatoes with them when they go to the sun.

That was Origin’s April Fool’s Day prank for those not aware - they’re going to go to the sun and bring a piece of it back to Earth as the obvious solution to all energy supply problems.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> This is April 1 isn't it ?



Jeez I have been away for the weekend, thanks for the heads up.
I thought it was quite funny.


----------



## basilio (2 April 2019)

A couple of interesting articles around  electric cars, cost comparisons etc

1)  a  Zappi power charger that enables people to selectively use excess energy from solar panels to charge their electric car. 
https://www.drivezero.com.au/charging/review-myenergi-zappi-ev-charger/

2) A cost benefit analysis of a full electric car vs Hybrid over 5 years. 
https://www.drivezero.com.au/cars/cost-of-hyundai-ioniq-electric-vs-toyota-corolla-hybrid/


----------



## sptrawler (3 April 2019)

At least the debate is starting to take a form, which is a good start, there is nothing worse than heading down the wrong track.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/moto...s/news-story/a21180eb4af6c24d6257a6542195dd03

Some of the issues raised, we have discussed on this forum :

Counted among the report’s 17 recommendations are development of electric infrastructure to meet the requirements of battery-powered vehicles, and ensuring electricity generation will meet anticipated demand.
Providing standardised public charging infrastructure.
Subsidies for zero-emission vehicles.
Phasing out petrol and diesel vehicles over the long term.
Mass transit vehicles such as buses and trains are tipped to do the bulk of transportation in the future, with smaller vehicles such as autonomous shuttles or ride-sharing cars looking after “last mile” requirements at the start and end of an individual’s journey.


----------



## moXJO (4 April 2019)

I'm still a fan of hydrogen cars for this country.


----------



## sptrawler (4 April 2019)

moXJO said:


> I'm still a fan of hydrogen cars for this country.



So am I, we are in a position, where we can just about go straight to hydrogen for transport.
Rather than starting down the battery track and all the associated infrastructure, then having to deal with old batteries and then moving people from battery cars to fuel cell cars.
It will be the same mess, as trying to move people from fossil fuel cars to battery cars.
If we are going to put charging/filling infrastructure all over Australia, IMO it would be best to go straight to hydrogen over the next 10-20 years.
This is where politicians making the decision based on vote catching, rather than sound technical and long term economic efficiencies, becomes a problem as usual. IMO


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> So am I, we are in a position, where we can just about go straight to hydrogen for transport.



I don't see that we have any choice.

It's like computer operating systems or mobile phone networks. If the rest of the world decides up on Win 10 and 5G then that's what we're going to do. Same with cars, if the rest of the world goes battery then so are we, if they go hydrogen then so must we.

Reason being simply that we don't manufacture any of this stuff ourselves these days so whichever system others use is the one we'll have to use.

It's a Beta / VHS situation really. Regardless of which is best, it's the one that everyone else uses that you want to have.

Only way I can see Australia having a choice is if both systems are widely adopted in other countries where they drive on the left hand side of the road as we do.


----------



## sptrawler (4 April 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't see that we have any choice.
> 
> It's like computer operating systems or mobile phone networks. If the rest of the world decides up on Win 10 and 5G then that's what we're going to do. Same with cars, if the rest of the world goes battery then so are we, if they go hydrogen then so must we.
> 
> ...



I agree with you, the only thing in our favour is, Korea (Hyundia and Kia) and also Japan (Toyota) are very keen on H2 and fuel cells.
The problem I forsee, is Labor throwing billions of taxpayer dollars, at battery car infrastructure and tax offsets.
When the manufacturers haven't even decided on a standard voltage, charging format(ac/dc) or even a standard charging plug. 
No doubt we will end up with another massive mess, rather than a structured well thought out plan of attack.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 April 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Only way I can see Australia having a choice is if both systems are widely adopted in other countries where they drive on the left hand side of the road as we do.




I wonder if anyone will come up with a vehicle with the steering position in the centre and passengers on each side of driver or as in some aircraft where the wheel can be swung to either side. Having every car like that could save a lot on LHD/RHD conversion.


----------



## moXJO (4 April 2019)

A lot of places are installing battery charge stations, so I'd say thats the way its going. Hydrogen cars are not considered  that clean either. 600kms to a tank wasn't bad though.


----------



## sptrawler (4 April 2019)

moXJO said:


> A lot of places are installing battery charge stations, so I'd say thats the way its going. Hydrogen cars are not considered  that clean either. 600kms to a tank wasn't bad though.



It depends how the hydrogen is made, if from renewable supplied electrolysis, it is  very clean.


----------



## qldfrog (4 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> It depends how the hydrogen is made, if from renewable supplied electrolysis, it is  very clean.



I am not a fan of h2, potentially dangerous, extremely leaky, even thru metal, etc
but it has one advantage: preserve the current system/infrastructure: h2 station, truck deliveries, we can have factories pumping h2 as needed when sunny windy, even burning h2 in turbine during still cloudy days..H2 acting as an hydro would...
So H2 could preserve the system, replace coal
But it means you can not produce your own whereas you can produce your power..
funnily I thought the government would be pushing h2 for that reason: keep jobs, taxes, car repairs etc


----------



## Value Collector (4 April 2019)

Ann said:


> This is a very grim news article given the driver died. A Tesla hit a tree and burst into flames. Obviously there has been no reason given as to why but further down in the article there is a mention of Lithium batteries. If they are this flammable I would be very concerned about having big banks of lithium batteries in my home, also I am not all that excited by EVs now if they are going to ignite so violently.
> *Tesla Slams Into Tree In Florida, Bursting Into Flames And Killing Driver*
> _......Recall that in May of this year, two teens were killed after their Tesla sped into a wall in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. That crash caused the car's electric engine to catch fire. After that crash, the National Transportation Safety Board found that the Tesla's lithium ion battery, which was the source of the fire, reignited twice._




Do you understand that Tanks of petrol also often explode in flames when a car drives into a tree?

People will die in EV crashes, that is certainty, what interests me more what is the rate of deaths.

Eg, How many miles are driven per fatality by the national vehicle fleet vs How many miles are driven per fatality of autopilot enhanced EV's.

You can count on every Autopilot or driverless vehicle crash fatality making the news, but regular cars with human drivers are killing people every day, rarely making the news, local news at best.


----------



## sptrawler (4 April 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Do you understand that Tanks of petrol also often explode in flames when a car drives into a tree?
> 
> People will die in EV crashes, that is certainty, what interests me more what is the rate of deaths.
> 
> ...



Have you heard when the Tesla's will hit Aust? Or are they still filling U.S orders?


----------



## brty (4 April 2019)

Energy efficiency is why BEVs will dominate over Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle in the future. Assuming the use of renewable energy sources and limited FF use, energy efficiency will end up being the most important aspect.
Hydrogen from natural gas is more efficient than from electrolysis, but with gas being a finite resource, the correct comparison is via electrolysis.
The numbers from various sources on the web tend to indicate that BEVs are 2-3 times the efficiency of HFCVs, so we would need 2-3 times the solar/wind installation for HFCVs as for BEVs. That alone is probably a cost (in energy and resources) that the world cannot afford.

Another aspect is that homes and businesses can fill their roof with solar panels and directly charge the BEVs, you can't do that with hydrogen.

IMHO we might end up with using both. Hydrogen FC for heavy vehicles where the weight of large batteries would be a drag on both performance and range, while small commuter vehicles will be BEVs.

There are many perspectives that are often overlooked in the debate of HFCV vs BEV. One is that just as the battery has a limited life in the BEV so does the Fuel stack of a fuel cell, a costly part of the HFC vehicles.
Another point is that too many discussions revolve around just commuter vehicles, when trucks, tractors, ships, bulldozers, etc need to be included.

Currently it is obvious the world is heading down the path of BEVs, with car makers investing many billions of dollars in the technology, plus sales are rising more rapidly than all predictions. 2018 sales growth was 64% over 2017, with over 2 million BEVs (and PHEVs) sold. Meanwhile the Toyota Mirai, has sold a TOTAL of about 4,800 over 4 years. Toyota's own PHEV Prius sells over 2,000/month, yet it only hit the market in late 2016, so sales there are much higher than the HFCV.


----------



## Value Collector (5 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Have you heard when the Tesla's will hit Aust? Or are they still filling U.S orders?




They are doing right hand drive countries first, they are exporting them into Europe at the moment, except the UK, I am guessing when the UK imports begin this year, we shouldn't be to far behind.

----------

This video answers some of the questions that people have brought up a while back about maintenance, turns out very little is needed, pretty interesting


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 April 2019)

brty said:


> Another point is that too many discussions revolve around just commuter vehicles, when trucks, tractors, ships, bulldozers, etc need to be included.



A point I have made to many people but which generally results in blank stares is that for the foreseeable future we're going to have a mix of technologies.

That is the big trend underway in energy and it's already well established.

Not so long ago, depending on where you lived, all electricity came from either coal, oil or hydro with it being fairly uncommon to find more than one major source within any grid. The only places where that is true today are a few remote towns relying on diesel.

As recently as 20 years ago practically all cars, utes and small vans in Australia had petrol engines. Today diesel dominate for utes and is widely used for cars and vans.

The only energy interconnections between states in 1989 were NSW and SA for gas and NSW and Vic for electricity. That was it. Today we have all state except WA interconnected with gas and we have all except WA and NT interconnected for electricity.

Solar is now a significant energy source but was close to zero just a decade ago.

So there's a definite trend toward diversity and in the context of vehicles we're likely to see that continue to increase.

Yes we will have EV's.

Yes petrol and diesel will both still be around for quite some time yet. Not forever but they're not finished yet that's for sure.

Natural gas will probably play a bigger role too, especially for heavy vehicles.

The biggest mistake anyone can make in all of this is to assume that it's an all or nothing proposition. Either all EV's or no EV's. All renewable electricity or all from coal and gas. Etc.

In reality there's going to be a mix of technologies for the next few decades that's pretty much certain.


----------



## Ann (6 April 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> A point I have made to many people but which generally results in blank stares is that for the foreseeable future we're going to have a mix of technologies.
> 
> That is the big trend underway in energy and it's already well established.




I found this, is there any merit or potential in the science Smurf?

*Scientists Are Now Transforming Saltwater Into Hydrogen Fuel*


----------



## rederob (6 April 2019)

brty said:


> Energy efficiency is why BEVs will dominate over Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle in the future. Assuming the use of renewable energy sources and limited FF use, energy efficiency will end up being the most important aspect.
> Hydrogen from natural gas is more efficient than from electrolysis, but with gas being a finite resource, the correct comparison is via electrolysis.
> The numbers from various sources on the web tend to indicate that BEVs are 2-3 times the efficiency of HFCVs, so we would need 2-3 times the solar/wind installation for HFCVs as for BEVs. That alone is probably a cost (in energy and resources) that the world cannot afford.
> 
> ...



Theory and reality are likely to be different in the longer term.
In the short term renewables will be spent as energy additions, while FFs fill the energy gap.
In the longer term, and as renewables get successively cheaper, there will be excess renewables energy.  Because the excess energy costs nothing (ie no fuel costs), and would otherwise be wasted, then it makes sense to use this "free" energy to produce hydrogen gas.  
In fact, if a nation like Australia did the maths properly it has the ability to work out how much wind and solar would be required to generate total annual energy needs, then add a hydrogen capacity build from additional wind/solar to produce enough hydrogen to fill all intermittency issues.  And it can easily go beyond that to produce hydrogen for export.


----------



## brty (6 April 2019)

rederob said:


> Theory and reality are likely to be different in the longer term.
> In the short term renewables will be spent as energy additions, while FFs fill the energy gap.
> In the longer term, and as renewables get successively cheaper, there will be excess renewables energy.  Because the excess energy costs nothing (ie no fuel costs), and would otherwise be wasted, then it makes sense to use this "free" energy to produce hydrogen gas.
> In fact, if a nation like Australia did the maths properly it has the ability to work out how much wind and solar would be required to generate total annual energy needs, then add a hydrogen capacity build from additional wind/solar to produce enough hydrogen to fill all intermittency issues.  And it can easily go beyond that to produce hydrogen for export.






rederob said:


> In the longer term, and as renewables get successively cheaper, there will be excess renewables energy.




Renewable energy getting cheaper in the longer term is an assumption that most people make, just because that has happened for the last 20 years. However I'm not expecting that trend to continue into the future for very long for 2 reasons...

1 The cost of energy itself has been going up and it takes a lot of energy to build renewable plants in the first place. Currently we rely on fossil fuels to make and build all our solar and wind farms, plus the grid infrastructure to carry the power.
On average the world is now mining the harder to get oil and coal. If oil production was as cheap and easy to get as it was 50 years ago, there would be no fracking nor deep water rigs, nor for that matter
oil from tar sands. These sources of energy have only become possible because the cheapest and easiest oil has already been extracted.

2 The resources needed to build renewable energy capacity are getting to be lower grades. For example copper, that 20 years ago had an average mined grade of around 1.2%, today has an average mined grade of about 0.6%. Because you need to mine and process an average lower grade, it will take more energy to extract the amount of copper needed by the world. 

I've seen many cost curves showing cheaper renewables into the future, but they all lack critical thinking about the underlying assumptions. IMHO at some point the cost of solar and wind will start to rise again as cost of manufacture, transport installation and grid connection rise.


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## sptrawler (6 April 2019)

As has now been shown with the solar salt storage plant to S.A, there also has to be a return on capital, to encourage the investment.
The amount of renewables required, is huge, and if the ROE isn't there, the price of the electricity produced will have to go up to cover it.
It isn't as easy as just wishing it will happened, it will take a huge amount of money and a huge amount of time.
Meanwhile we have to try and make sure, we don't become a third World country, while trying to achieve it.


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## rederob (6 April 2019)

brty said:


> 1 The cost of energy itself has been going up and it takes a lot of energy to build renewable plants in the first place. Currently we rely on fossil fuels to make and build all our solar and wind farms, plus the grid infrastructure to carry the power.



The cost of generating energy from renewables has been consistently decreasing.   Furthermore, as renewables are also increasingly important in the total energy mix, the cost of making what turns into renewables capacity also decreases.


brty said:


> On average the world is now mining the harder to get oil and coal. If oil production was as cheap and easy to get as it was 50 years ago, there would be no fracking nor deep water rigs, nor for that matter
> oil from tar sands. These sources of energy have only become possible because the cheapest and easiest oil has already been extracted.



So what - renewables are now proven significantly cheaper, and their cost curves are trending down, not up!


brty said:


> 2 The resources needed to build renewable energy capacity are getting to be lower grades. For example copper, that 20 years ago had an average mined grade of around 1.2%, today has an average mined grade of about 0.6%. Because you need to mine and process an average lower grade, it will take more energy to extract the amount of copper needed by the world.



True, but the additional cost will be marginal at best.  You might need to look at how massive mining operations are becoming more electric and autonomous as you might not be up to speed.


brty said:


> I've seen many cost curves showing cheaper renewables into the future, but they all lack critical thinking about the underlying assumptions.



Perhaps you can tell us about these assumptions.
Wind for example has yet to get to scalable production levels as technology and engineering advancements keep improving such that these advancements are reducing costs in preference to scale.
Solar technologies are capable of significantly greater capacity through "biscuits" that capture more of the solar spectrum than present mass produced solar panels.  However, the issue here is that scalability is gazumping efficiency for the time being.


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## rederob (6 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> As has now been shown with the solar salt storage plant to S.A, there also has to be a return on capital, to encourage the investment.
> The amount of renewables required, is huge, and if the ROE isn't there, the price of the electricity produced will have to go up to cover it.
> It isn't as easy as just wishing it will happened, it will take a huge amount of money and a huge amount of time.
> Meanwhile we have to try and make sure, we don't become a third World country, while trying to achieve it.



Very true.
That's a major impediment to *nuclear* overseas where ROI is so far out that private companies can use their capital far more efficiently.  
The difference with solar thermal is that, with proper planning, it adds energy to the grid mostly at times of day where prices are highest as distinct from being an energy mainstay.


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## sptrawler (6 April 2019)

rederob said:


> Very true.
> That's a major impediment to *nuclear* overseas where ROI is so far out that private companies can use their capital far more efficiently.
> The difference with solar thermal is that, with proper planning, it adds energy to the grid mostly at times of day where prices are highest as distinct from being an energy mainstay.



The problem with it is, IMO, it can be used as you say during the peak evening period.
But I would assume it requires LNG, to achieve steam conditions in the morning, untill the salt is heated.
So in reality at best it has a very limited generation window, and the capital outlay is very high, add to this the output will be considerably lower on overcast days. Be that in generation time or restricted output.
I think the technology is great, but I wouldn't be buying shares in the company that owns it. Just my opinion.
The benefit with nuclear is , it is clean and it is 24/7 available, to me it is currently the only viable way of becoming coal free.


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## rederob (6 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with it is, IMO, it can be used as you say during the peak evening period.
> But I would assume it requires LNG, to achieve steam conditions in the morning, until the salt is heated.



No, you don't spend money on "extra" energy.  In fact these facilities dedicate a proportion of their generation capacity solely for running the site.


sptrawler said:


> The benefit with nuclear is, it is clean and it is 24/7 available, to me it is currently the only viable way of becoming coal free.



Cannot see anyone in Australia ever willing to put up the many billions and wait over 20 years to get a return.  In any case, waste disposal remains a global problem and aside from nuclear plant nimby's, you will find nuclear waste nimby's are totally feral.

Back on topic.
There are many battery technologies being tested for greater suitability for EVs, with solid state likely to be the winner down the track.  These would be safer and offer greater range.  But like the solar PV race, the massive production scale of basic solar panels means that the issue of price competitiveness will rule the roost for the foreseeable future.


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## brty (6 April 2019)

rederob said:


> The cost of generating energy from renewables has been consistently decreasing.   Furthermore, as renewables are also increasingly important in the total energy mix, the cost of making what turns into renewables capacity also decreases.
> So what - renewables are now proven significantly cheaper, and their cost curves are trending down, not up!
> True, but the additional cost will be marginal at best.  You might need to look at how massive mining operations are becoming more electric and autonomous as you might not be up to speed.
> Perhaps you can tell us about these assumptions.
> ...






rederob said:


> The cost of generating energy from renewables has been consistently decreasing.




If that were true, then power bills would have been decreasing in real terms as the amount of renewable energy fed into the grid increases. However over the last decade or 2 the cost of electricity to the consumer has been going up in real terms across Australia.
There is a total cost of the renewables, not just the installation of separate solar and wind plants. There is also a limit on what percentage of the grid can be renewable unless there is a massive amount of storage included, because if intermittency issues. This is another cost that has to be added for a stable grid.



rederob said:


> Perhaps you can tell us about these assumptions.




We currently build everything with cheap FF, cheap in term of net energy, which most people assume means cheaper in dollar cost with scale. Just adding solar and wind to the grid will lead to instability and intermittency.
 Can you make just the glass for solar panels from intermittent solar or wind energy?? Answer, NO, nor for that matter any other component!! We need a stable grid to do this that currently relies on stable FF output. Once we add enough storage to overcome intermittency issues, OR make the grid large enough to overcome any intermittency issues (transcontinental) the dollar cost and energy cost goes through the roof.
Solar and wind are only getting cheaper because they rely on fossil fuels to mine, transport, manufacture, and build, plus the grid being built to accommodate all the renewables is also being built with fossil fuels. The renewables have a lifespan of about 25 years, so will need replacing at a shorter time interval than coal or natural gas plants that tend to have 50 year (or longer) lives.


I'm a huge believer in the need to go to renewables as we will simply run out of oil, coal and gas eventually (excluding any global warming issues),  I'm just not assuming it will be cheap, as the real numbers clearly show it will not be.
Our civilization runs on cheap net energy. We have relied on cheap, easy to extract fossil fuels for a couple of centuries, with accelerating use of these over the last 100 years. 
Economic type thinking where everything is based on dollar cost, does not match with the reality of everything being energy based. I've been studying all this for decades, so could easily write a book to explain all the nuances of our current system. Impossible to go through all the assumptions quickly, apart from getting people to look at every aspect of anything to realise how dependent it is on cheap FF energy.
Our markets crashed in 2008 because of energy (FF) getting rapidly more expensive, yet most claim it was bad loans. My own analysis of energy kept me out of the stockmarket at the time. Economists do not understand why in the 10 years since the GFC, economies have not returned to previous growth, yet an energy analysis of the economy easily explains the constraints of expensive energy on growth.

Assumptions of renewable energy getting cheaper because of economies of scale etc, fail to realise the upfront energy cost in the build out. Lower quality ores require increased energy inputs to get the same quantity of raw materials out. Using renewables exclusively requires a massive increase in raw materials, simply because the energy return on energy invested is much lower in renewables than in the FF we have been using.
Think of the resources needed to build a 1Gw coal plant or gas plant with an 80% capacity factor, (produces roughly 7 million Mewawatt hours of electricity/yr) compared to the equivalent build of just solar. Solar assuming 6hr/d, would be a 3.2Gw solar plant, plus there would need to be some type of storage to allow for the intermittency. Both capital and energy cost of the solar build are much higher than for the coal or gas plant, plus if you put the solar in the bast places, there are increased grid capacity build costs.


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## basilio (6 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with it is, IMO, it can be used as you say during the peak evening period.
> But I would assume it requires LNG, to achieve steam conditions in the morning, untill the salt is heated.
> So in reality at best it has a very limited generation window, and the capital outlay is very high, add to this the output will be considerably lower on overcast days. Be that in generation time or restricted output.
> I think the technology is great, but I wouldn't be buying shares in the company that owns it. Just my opinion.
> *The benefit with nuclear is , it is clean and it is 24/7 available, to me it is currently the only viable way of becoming coal free*.




Nuclear power stations as they are currently built seems totally uneconomic.  The alternatives of wind/solar/batteries/ stored hydro just make more economic sense. This analysis examines what is happening in the US.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a26255413/green-new-deal-nuclear-power/


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## rederob (6 April 2019)

brty said:


> If that were true, then power bills would have been decreasing in real terms as the amount of renewable energy fed into the grid increases. However over the last decade or 2 the cost of electricity to the consumer has been going up in real terms across Australia.



Australia is not indicative of the rest of the world - has highest prices of all westernised economies.
In any case, I am talking about cost to *generate*.
Maybe take this to a different thread  - this one is for *electric cars* - and I will address your points, because they simply do not stack up.


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## sptrawler (6 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Nuclear power stations as they are currently built seems totally uneconomic.  The alternatives of wind/solar/batteries/ stored hydro just make more economic sense. This analysis examines what is happening in the US.
> 
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a26255413/green-new-deal-nuclear-power/



I agree with your sentiment, it is just the amount that is required and the timeframe it is required in, that is the stumbling block for renewables. IMO


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## rederob (6 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with your sentiment, it is just the amount that is required and the timeframe it is required in, that is the stumbling block for renewables. IMO





sptrawler said:


> I agree with your sentiment, it is just the amount that is required and the timeframe it is required in, that is the stumbling block for renewables. IMO



Very little additional energy is required, assuming greater reliability of existing capacity.
However, the stress of heat on distribution infrastructure is going to get more and more problematic.
More wind plus storage will be a significantly quicker and less costly fix than the pumped hydro from Snowy.


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## Smurf1976 (6 April 2019)

Noted that this thread is about electric cars not how to generate electricity but I'll observe that with regard to the latter, it is not simply a question of resources, technology and the environment so far as cost is concerned.

Broader economic factors and industry structure lie at the heart of recent cost increases.

To that end I will point out something very basic.

AGL is a company that, apart from those living in NSW, most Australians hadn't heard of until a few years ago. 

AGL is actually the 11th oldest company of any sort operating in Australia, having operated continuously since 1837. So AGL itself pre-dates any significant use of electricity in this country by about 50 years.

For the vast majority of its history AGL's sole function was supplying gas in Sydney. Or more specifically, Sydney but not including the north shore. In that role AGL was an integrated monopoly which owned and ran the whole show from gas production, pipes, meters and retail. Want gas? You can buy that from AGL and nobody else.

Now to drop the bomb on current thinking, it's a matter of historical fact that AGL's charges for the supply of gas were lower as a monopoly (using early 1990's prices for reference) than AGL's prices are today, for the same gas, in a competitive market and the extent of the increase is not explained by wholesale gas costs.

Now I've nothing against free markets as a concept or economists personally but the notion that radical reform of the energy industry during the 1990's would lead to lower prices has proven to be false in every case other than for some (but not all) electricity consumers in Victoria who have ended up as the only real beneficiaries of the whole thing.

In the context of the thread, well expensive electricity obviously isn't helpful in persuading consumers to use more of it via electric vehicles. It won't stop EV's becoming a thing, international factors will determine that, but higher than necessary costs are never helpful in persuading the masses that something's a good idea.


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## Knobby22 (6 April 2019)

rederob said:


> Very little additional energy is required, assuming greater reliability of existing capacity.
> However, the stress of heat on distribution infrastructure is going to get more and more problematic.
> More wind plus storage will be a significantly quicker and less costly fix than the pumped hydro from Snowy.



The Snowy scheme is storage. How else do you propose to store the wind energy? 

It is in effect a giant battery and a hell of a lot more environmentally friendly than the battery plant in SA which has tiny storage by comparison, uses heaps of rare minerals requiring extensive mining and which will fail in the medium term.


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## JCS26 (6 April 2019)

I’m an Uber driver as well, and Yes I will only buy if it’s less than 30k

We also have solar panels so basically it will be free fuel for life


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## moXJO (6 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Nuclear power stations as they are currently built seems totally uneconomic.  The alternatives of wind/solar/batteries/ stored hydro just make more economic sense. This analysis examines what is happening in the US.
> 
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a26255413/green-new-deal-nuclear-power/



Are renewables really able to provide Australia with enough energy to give sustainable supply?


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## moXJO (6 April 2019)

rederob said:


> More wind plus storage will be a significantly quicker and less costly fix than the pumped hydro from Snowy.



Longevity of snowy would outlast batteries by possibly 3 or more times though wouldn’t it?
I wonder what the breakdown of costs would be over time?


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## basilio (6 April 2019)

moXJO said:


> Are renewables really able to provide Australia with enough energy to give sustainable supply?




I'm  quite sure they could - as long as there is a proper distribution network and adequate  balancing storage.  In fact there have been multiple, detailed  examinations to prove just this point. They keep getting upgraded as the technology improves and costs change.

My point about nuclear power is that it has proven far too costly to be a reasonable proposition given the alternatives.

https://bze.org.au/research/renewable-energy-plan/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Zero_Emissions


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## basilio (6 April 2019)

*Volvo unveils first all-electric truck*

*Volvo* has unveiled its *first all-electric* *truck*, complete with battery options ranging from 100kWh to 300kWh.

The *FL Electric* is based on Volvo Trucks's new FL platform, introduced last month. Although the 16-tonne architecture is suitable for a huge range of applications, the Electric is designed predominately for urban duties like deliveries and waste disposal.

Battery capacity will range from *100kWh* to *300kWh*, offering range *up to 300km* in its highest-capacity form. As you'd probably imagine, charge times will vary based on the battery, but Volvo Trucks says the 300kWh unit takes around two hours to replenish on a high-speed DC charger, or upwards of 10 hours on a regular AC connection.
https://www.caradvice.com.au/639635/volvo-all-electric-truck/


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## rederob (6 April 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> The Snowy scheme is storage. How else do you propose to store the wind energy?



In the short term, batteries.


Knobby22 said:


> It is in effect a giant battery and a hell of a lot more environmentally friendly than the battery plant in SA which has tiny storage by comparison, uses heaps of rare minerals requiring extensive mining and which will fail in the medium term.



Well, to power that battery you need to add more than it gives back, every time you use it.
In other words, more energy is required to pump the water back up to the storage dam, than the energy it provided in the first instance.
Whereas a wind turbine can directly feed energy into a battery and every time it is expended, the only energy loss is via conversion and transmission.
As for you claim on the minerals side, yes, that's a point.  But who has been complaining about the tens of billions of spent batteries already produced which were never rechargeable?
I am still using some Dick Smith rechargeables which are over 20 years old.


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## Smurf1976 (6 April 2019)

moXJO said:


> Longevity of snowy would outlast batteries by possibly 3 or more times though wouldn’t it?
> I wonder what the breakdown of costs would be over time?



As a general rule with anything hydro you'll get 50 years of operation with regular inspections and basic maintenance as needed.

Address any issues with water conveyance infrastructure as they crop up but in most cases there won't be anything much to worry about apart from needing to maintain the corrosion protection.

Then do a proper overhaul to bring the mechanical and electrical parts back to "as new" condition somewhere around the 50 year mark.

At around the 80 - 100 year mark you'll probably need to spend some money on the big stuff but it's very site specific.

Also worth mentioning that usually zero loss of generating capacity and minimal loss of efficiency over the operating lifespan. If capacity is limited then that would be due to a specific problem having occurred not just normal wear and tear.

For major works, the driver in practice is often more about improvement than repairs as such. Eg:

Tumut 3 (Snowy Hydro) major overhaul lifted plant capacity by 20% in generation mode (but not in pumping mode). Similar works at other stations have yielded lesser but still worthwhile gains.

Trevallyn (Hydro Tas) major upgrade of two (out of four) machines added 37.5% to the capacity of those two machines whilst also doing away with oil and grease on those machines which is obviously a significant modification to the original design. There's an R&D aspect to that as well as the benefits achieved.

Shoalhaven (Origin Energy) hasn't been done yet but proposed major additions to the scheme, which make use of the existing civil infrastructure, would lift capacity by either two thirds or by 100% depending on which of two options is pursued. Their preference is for the latter if it stacks up technically and financially.

Etc. So major works aren't always about fixing problems but can also be to improve on the original design.


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## Smurf1976 (6 April 2019)

basilio said:


> *Volvo unveils first all-electric truck*



Anything being used for urban deliveries etc is a very obvious use for an EV.

Such trucks are commonly parked all night and spend a lot of time in traffic that's not moving all that fast. Absolutely perfect for an EV.


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## Smurf1976 (6 April 2019)

basilio said:


> I'm  quite sure they could - as long as there is a proper distribution network and adequate  balancing storage.



Agreed.

Sensibly approaching load management will also help greatly.

In the context of EV's that means charge them gradually not all at once.

If everyone gets home and starts charging at 6pm and they're charged by 10pm then that's a huge problem. Not unfixable but will cost serious $. In contrast there's far fewer issues drawing the same energy with a later start and continuing through the night. Not zero issues but a lot less of them. 

That's not any issue of technology as a limitation but rather, of sensibly using it.


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## rederob (6 April 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> As a general rule with anything hydro you'll get 50 years of operation with regular inspections and basic maintenance as needed.
> 
> Address any issues with water conveyance infrastructure as they crop up but in most cases there won't be anything much to worry about apart from needing to maintain the corrosion protection.
> 
> ...



All good and well, but every watt produced from Snowy will require more energy to reproduce that same amount each time.
Unless there are massive amounts of "spare" energy around, topping up the dams will not happen quickly.
I would like to see the modelling for the project because it looks like a good idea for just a few days a year, possibly making it an expensive mistake in the present environment.


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## Knobby22 (6 April 2019)

rederob said:


> All good and well, but every watt produced from Snowy will require more energy to reproduce that same amount each time.
> Unless there are massive amounts of "spare" energy around, topping up the dams will not happen quickly.
> I would like to see the modelling for the project because it looks like a good idea for just a few days a year, possibly making it an expensive mistake in the present environment.



Well the idea is that there are massive amounts of essentially free renewable energy. Solar and wind.
You store the energy and use as required. 

If we are to get serious about using renewable energy we need this built.

Chemical batteries are not green, are relatively inefficient (all the energy you pump in is not saved)and incapable of supplying large amounts of power such as needed to hold up the grid for days at a time. They also become less efficient over time to recharge and are no good after 10 - 15years.

The battery plant in Adelaide despite the huge costs cannot do anything like that.


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## rederob (6 April 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Well the idea is that there are massive amounts of essentially free renewable energy. Solar and wind.
> You store the energy and use as required.
> If we are to get serious about using renewable energy we need this built.



Yes, the energy is available, and we need to build capacity.
However, infrastructure for diverse renewables is different than for traditional power plants.  Additionally, more interconnectors are required so that intermittency is mitigated at a distance, or that excess capacity can be stored at a distance.


Knobby22 said:


> Chemical batteries are not green, are relatively inefficient (all the energy you pump in is not saved)and incapable of supplying large amounts of power such as needed to hold up the grid for days at a time. They also become less efficient over time to recharge and are no good after 10 - 15years.



Brief comment only - have a good look at redox batteries - you might be surprised what you learn.


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## Knobby22 (6 April 2019)

rederob said:


> Yes, the energy is available, and we need to build capacity.
> However, infrastructure for diverse renewables is different than for traditional power plants.  Additionally, more interconnectors are required so that intermittency is mitigated at a distance, or that excess capacity can be stored at a distance.
> Brief comment only - have a good look at redox batteries - you might be surprised what you learn.



Thanks, 65% to 70% efficiency which is pretty good, pretty good life, highly toxic though.
I'm not saying there isn't a place for batteries especially in remote communities but to feed Melbourne from renewables we need a serious solution.


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## rederob (6 April 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Thanks, 65% to 70% efficiency which is pretty good, pretty good life, highly toxic though.
> I'm not saying there isn't a place for batteries especially in remote communities but to feed Melbourne from renewables we need a serious solution.



There are "safe" alternatives to Redox via vanadium. 
However, vanadium is the frontrunner and so far winning the race.
China recently commissioned one of the largest flow batteries in the world, a 3MW/12MWh vanadium redox unit, and will add units to get it to 10MW/40MWH.


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## Smurf1976 (6 April 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> The battery plant in Adelaide despite the huge costs cannot do anything like that.



Some figures:

Hornsdale Power Reserve (aka the Telsla big battery) = 100 MW peak / 129 MWh storage

ESCRI Dalrymple (battery, SA) = 30 MW / 8 MWh

Ballarat Energy Storage System (Battery, Vic) = 30 MW / 30 MWh

Gannawarra Energy Storage System (Battery, Vic) = 25 MW / 50 MWh

Snowy 2.0 = 2,000 MW / 350,000 MWh storage

Hydro Tas present conventional hydro system = 2385 MW / 14,400,000 MWh with plans to increase peak capacity by up to 2500 MW in stages as required.

As a means of dealing with short term peaks or imbalances batteries do have a role most certainly.

As a means of riding through the seasonal (winter) problem of sustained high system load plus spells of minimal wind and not a lot of sun - it's hydro or fossils realistically. For reasons of economics the same equipment will in practice be used as part of the peak generating capacity year round.

From an operational perspective a major issue arises with the batteries in that, looking at this actual past Summer (so that's real events not some hypothetical) the trouble is that the owners tended to discharge them at the wrong time. In two cases doing so actually did result in consumers being without power, in one case that was heavy industry and in the other it was homes and small business etc, who wouldn't have been without power if the batteries had been discharged at the optimum time.

That problem isn't a limitation of technology but it's a deficiency of the present market structure highlighted by the fact that batteries are extremely unforgiving in that context.


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## Smurf1976 (6 April 2019)

To put those figures into perspective for the states with the big batteries, present load:

Victoria = 4623 MW
SA = 1432 MW

Vic generation:
Loy Yang A (AGL, coal) = 2168 MW
Yallourn (Energy Australia, coal) = 768 MW
Loy Yang B (Alinta, coal) = 535 MW
Newport D (Energy Australia, gas) = 510 MW
Murray 1 & 2 (Snowy hydro, hydro) = 210 MW
Bairnsdale (Alinta, gas) = 82 MW
Eildon (AGL, hydro)= 77 MW
All wind farms combined = 42 MW
Hume (Meridian, hydro) = 16 MW
All solar combined = 0 MW

SA generation:
Pelican Point (Engie / Origin, gas) = 471 MW
Torrens Island B (AGL, gas) = 355 MW
Torrens Island A (AGL, gas) = 216 MW
Osborne (Origin, gas) = 180 MW
All wind farms combined = 107 MW
Ladbroke Grove (Origin, gas) = 84 MW
All solar combined = 0 MW

Generation and load figures won't add due to interstate transfers.

Plant not specifically listed is not running at the present time.

Now, just over a day ago there was too much wind in SA and generation from already built wind farms went to waste. Wind was going really well in Vic at the same time too, all running nicely. Now, if only we had the ability to somehow store the wind so we could use it later.....


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## HelloU (6 April 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Now, just over a day ago there was too much wind in SA and generation from already built wind farms went to waste. Wind was going really well in Vic at the same time too, all running nicely. Now, if only we had the ability to somehow store the wind so we could use it later.....



can u elaborate any on this ....i assume u mean it went to a load bank ... so i am interested as to why other supplies (assume a GT or three) were not killed in this type of situation ..... were they kept on for 'security' reasons? I assume there is a minimum % of 'base load' always running ....


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## SirRumpole (6 April 2019)

brty said:


> However over the last decade or 2 the cost of electricity to the consumer has been going up in real terms across Australia.




Perhaps that is because the supply companies are losing so many customers to rooftop solar they have to jack up their prices to maintain profits ?


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## Smurf1976 (7 April 2019)

HelloU said:


> can u elaborate any on this



The "full" answer would be getting into some serious power engineering (and required some major effort on the part of AEMO to calculate with accuracy by the way) but in simple terms it relates to "system strength".

Wind generates energy most certainly but the present wind farms don't have the ability to deliver high fault currents (that's a good thing even though it might sound bad) and they also lack inertia (another good thing).

There are moves to address this but right now it's a very real constraint, the workaround to which is to keep a minimum level of conventional (in SA's case that's gas or diesel in practice but it could equally be coal or hydro if they had any) generation running at all times so as to deliver required fault currents, inertia and in the event of a transmission loss Vic - SA, frequency control.

From there it's a simple issue of limitations. Have to keep some gas / or diesel (in practice normally gas since it's cheaper) plant running and it can't run without generating a reasonable amount of power. If the wind's blowing strongly and demand in SA is low or moderate at the time then there's simply nowhere for it to go given the lines between SA and Vic have a limited capacity. Double whammy if the sun is shining brightly at the time.

The solution to that is to shut down some wind generation. Physically that's just a matter of turning blades into the wind and intentionally losing output - easy as such but it's a total waste of the power that could have been produced.

Future workarounds and solutions:

New line SA - NSW directly will enable greater power flow out of the state during high winds to somewhere that can use it (Vic is heading toward having the same problem as SA but for NSW it's much further away in terms of the time until it's an issue).

Building synchronous condensers in SA thus removing some of the reasons for needing conventional synchronous plant (gas, diesel) in operation and reducing the quantity of what's needed.

Any future pumped hydro would also help since that's a great big rotating machine, as is gas or coal, and has the same characteristics electrically.

All of that comes down to technical constraints not anything of a political, economic or environmental nature (though it could be argued that if not for politics and economics the those constraints may have been resolved sooner.....).

WA and Vic both have similar emerging issues which are compounded by minimum output limits on existing (coal, gas) plant below which it can't operate. So you can run between x and y, but below x the only option is to shut down completely. That's not a major drama if you're shutting it down for a month but it's not something that would be good to be doing literally every mild sunny day and then having to re-start for use that same night. 

EV's have a lot of potential to help with all this since fundamentally there's a lot of flexibility as to when to charge them. How much of each 24 hours is your car actually in use? For most people it's parked far more than it's being driven so there's a lot of flexibility as to when to put the energy into the battery. The key to making that work is to deploy some intelligence in how it's done - preferably right from the start rather than putting a million on the road and then realising we should have done it differently.

Technically that's very doable, it just needs to actually be done.


----------



## rederob (7 April 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> The solution to that is to shut down some wind generation. Physically that's just a matter of turning blades into the wind and intentionally losing output - easy as such but it's a total waste of the power that could have been produced.



A smarter solution is to not waste the energy at all.  Even in Germany they are adding battery storage to coal plants when extra spinning would otherwise go wasted.


----------



## HelloU (7 April 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> The "full" answer would be getting into some serious power engineering (and required some major effort on the part of AEMO to calculate with accuracy by the way) but in simple terms it relates to "system strength".
> 
> Wind generates energy most certainly but the present wind farms don't have the ability to deliver high fault currents (that's a good thing even though it might sound bad) and they also lack inertia (another good thing).
> 
> ...



thanks - you had me at feather - which did not even cross my mind - D'oh.


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## basilio (7 April 2019)

Anyone else seen "The Blue Bandit " ? This Dutch guy has travelled 95,000 k around the world in an electric car. Finished in Sydney.

Used a blog to publicise his trip and get supporters to put him up, plug in his car, and promoted various renewable energy companies/products on the way. 

His videos are great vignettes of his travel around Australia and the rest of the world

Good stuff.
https://plugmeinproject.com/blog/
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/na...-car-trip-ends-in-sydney-20190407-p51btk.html


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## basilio (7 April 2019)

An example of some of the products Wiebe Wakker (The Blue Bandit) came across in his travels
https://plugmeinproject.com/touche-streetlight/
https://plugmeinproject.com/repack/
https://plugmeinproject.com/elemental-water-makers/


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## Smurf1976 (8 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Anyone else seen "The Blue Bandit " ? This Dutch guy has travelled 95,000 k around the world in an electric car. Finished in Sydney.



EV's have certainly come a long way since the converted Charade. Can't believe that was over a quarter century ago now......

http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~stott@netspace.net.au/images/iemcev.jpg




Car was a standard Daihatsu Charade converted to electric power.

I can't remember all the specs but top speed was ~80 km/h and they were just deep cycle lead acid batteries under the bonnet. Charging from a regular 10 Amp power point.

A rather long list of people took it for a drive at the time, including a few politicians of all persuasions.

Owner was the Integrated Energy Management Center - a joint project of the Australian Government, Tasmanian state government and the Hydro-Electric Corporation.

Can't remember the exact date but about 1994 give or take a year or so.


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## PZ99 (8 April 2019)

Look up the mid 70's City Car for a laugh or three.

The best idea for EV's was abandoned - place the battery in a transmission tunnel and simply drive through a battery bay, change the battery, grab ya Macca's and drive off. Peace of cake.


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## SirRumpole (10 April 2019)

Lock up yer utes and Landrovers people they'll be illegal under a Labor government. 

A good plan on the surface, but I reckon Labor should be talking to the Europeans and Japanese, they build better cars than the Yanks.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04...to-resurrect-australian-car-industry/10985458


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## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Look up the mid 70's City Car for a laugh or three.
> 
> The best idea for EV's was abandoned - place the battery in a transmission tunnel and simply drive through a battery bay, change the battery, grab ya Macca's and drive off. Peace of cake.



It is a good idea, but to get the capacity like the Tesla, the battery takes up the whole subframe between the front and back axles.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Lock up yer utes and Landrovers people they'll be illegal under a Labor government.
> 
> A good plan on the surface, but I reckon Labor should be talking to the Europeans and Japanese, they build better cars than the Yanks.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04...to-resurrect-australian-car-industry/10985458



Like you say a good plan, but will fail for the very same reasons the last car industry here failed, small market, high relative wages, and only viable if the tax payer is funding it ad infinitum.
As you mention, get the Japs involved and not the Yanks.
We would be far better off starting a battery manufacturing industry here, we have the raw materials, the batteries are compact and it is a growing market we could conceivably compete in.
Unlike cars, batteries wouldn't be hampered by inefficient shipping limitations, you would container load to capacity. Just my opinion.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (10 April 2019)

Just spitballing - Instead of waiting while a battery charges, why not standardise the batteries to an extent and make them removable so they can be swapped out? Then they can charge while waiting for another client.
Obviously size/weight is a current issue but with more advances in the tech it might be feasible.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Like you say a good plan, but will fail for the very same reasons the last car industry here failed, small market, high relative wages, and only viable if the tax payer is funding it ad infinitum.
> As you mention, get the Japs involved and not the Yanks.




We had 3 car manufacturers here for our population for a long time, surely our market could support one ?

The yanks and Japs were crazy to all bail out at once. If I was head of say Ford Australia and two of my competitors bailed out, I'd be licking my lips in delight having the market to myself, almost. What a defeatist attitude they had and good riddance.

Time to get someone serious about manufacturing here, and by the way, all countries subsidise their car industries.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/meghab...estic-electric-vehicle-industry/#702fca29610a


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> We had 3 car manufacturers here for our population for a long time, surely our market could support one ?
> 
> The yanks and Japs were crazy to all bail out at once. If I was head of say Ford Australia and two of my competitors bailed out, I'd be licking my lips in delight having the market to myself, almost. What a defeatist attitude they had and good riddance.
> 
> ...



Yes we have been through this 1000 times, in the end people weren't buying Australian cars, why do you think they would buy an electric one?
When they can buy a miriad of foreign ones, which no doubt will be better made, more current as they change models quicker due to economies of scale.
I know you really don't believe, we would ever get a car manufacturing base back, I've read enough of your posts to know that.
It all sounds wonderfull and is vote catching, but isn't practical.
Making batteries for them and energy applications, is practical and achievable.IMO


----------



## SirRumpole (10 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Yes we have been through this 1000 times, in the end people weren't buying Australian cars, why do you think they would buy an electric one?




We weren't making vehicles the people wanted, ie SUV's not family sedans. That was the fault of the manufacturers who just stuck to what they knew and were afraid to innovate.

Make the right product here and the people will buy it.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> We weren't making vehicles the people wanted, ie SUV's not family sedans. That was the fault of the manufacturers who just stuck to what they knew and were afraid to innovate.
> 
> Make the right product here and the people will buy it.



Then people's taste changes and the foreign makers that sell 100 of millions of cars, re tool and meet the new fashion and demand.
Meanwhile our manufacturers, who make 200,000 cars, are meant to compete. Come on Rumpy you aren't really serious are you? I know you are trying to support silly Billy's cause, but it is a ludicrous suggestion, even Tesla with a great product, is struggling to get up and running.


----------



## rederob (10 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Then people's taste changes and the foreign makers that sell 100 of millions of cars, re tool and meet the new fashion and demand.
> Meanwhile our manufacturers, who make 200,000 cars, are meant to compete. Come on Rumpy you aren't really serious are you? I know you are trying to support silly Billy's cause, but it is a ludicrous suggestion, even Tesla with a great product, is struggling to get up and running.



Only batteries make electric cars more expensive.  
Tesla's are unashamedly upmarket, and Musk is clawing back hundreds of millions in research in order to stay in business.
Electric cars themselves are incredibly basic, so building them would be a doddle.  Equipping them with the latest electronic gadgetary is also getting cheaper every year.  
I presently see the major drawback to success being the AI for autonomous mode unless an Oz manufacturer teams up with a developer.
A huge advantage would be that if the step were taken, tooling would be cutting edge, amd production lines highly automated.  The downside would be not as many jobs as before, although one thing Australia has always been good at is devising novel and functional "options".


----------



## SirRumpole (10 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Then people's taste changes and the foreign makers that sell 100 of millions of cars, re tool and meet the new fashion and demand.
> Meanwhile our manufacturers, who make 200,000 cars, are meant to compete. Come on Rumpy you aren't really serious are you? I know you are trying to support silly Billy's cause, but it is a ludicrous suggestion, even Tesla with a great product, is struggling to get up and running.




The basis of the operation could be the government car fleets, the savings in running costs could pay off the initial outlay quite quickly, and the sale of the vehicles on the second hand market would also recoup the investment.

C'mon sp, we have to do something in this country besides pulling stuff out of the ground. No point in training engineers and scientists here if they have no jobs to go to.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

Oh well we will just have to agree to disagree, the market place here isn't big enough and the major auto companies have based their RH drive production in SE Asia so I can't see it happening. 
Like I said, I believe we have an inside running position, on battery manufacture it will be interesting to see if anyone builds a manufacturing plant here.

On to something else, the early stages of autonomous vehicle automation, is starting to surface. I believe the EU is going to legislate, that intelligent speed assist technology, will be required in all cars in the early 2020's.
https://etsc.eu/briefing-intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/

This will put a bit of a damper on fast cars, which will assist the uptake of electric, also it will be interesting if the police pull you over and access the historic speed data recorder.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> This will put a bit of a damper on fast cars, which will assist the uptake of electric, also it will be interesting if the police pull you over and access the historic speed data recorder.




But if a computer is doing the driving, they can't arrest you can they ? 

Maybe they could book the car for driving under the influence of a virus.


----------



## PZ99 (10 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> The basis of the operation could be the government car fleets, the savings in running costs could pay off the initial outlay quite quickly, and the sale of the vehicles on the second hand market would also recoup the investment.
> 
> C'mon sp, we have to do something in this country besides pulling stuff out of the ground. No point in training engineers and scientists here if they have no jobs to go to.



I think a valid point was made about the retooling. You'll never break even from domestic sales so you need an export market. But we can't compete against China, Korea etc.

And it looks like you guys are typing quicker than me


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> But if a computer is doing the driving, they can't arrest you can they ?
> 
> Maybe they could book the car for driving under the influence of a virus.



You can over ride it, by putting your foot flat to the floor, that should register a good speed by the time you are pulling in after overtaking someone.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

PZ99 said:


> I think a valid point was made about the retooling. You'll never break even from domestic sales so you need an export market. But we can't compete against China, Korea etc.



I think there is a better chance, of shoe and shirt manufacturing coming back to Australia, the way we are going. 
Basket weaving seems to be making a big comeback.


----------



## PZ99 (10 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I think there is a better chance, of shoe and shirt manufacturing coming back to Australia, the way we are going.
> Basket weaving seems to be making a big comeback.



The thing we have going for us is the Lithium. And we have plenty of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_lithium_production


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## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

PZ99 said:


> The thing we have going for us is the Lithium. And we have plenty of it.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_lithium_production




If you read a few posts earlier, I said we are in a very good position, to start a battery manufacturing industry. Post #746


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## PZ99 (10 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> If you read a few posts earlier, I said we are in a very good position, to start a battery manufacturing industry. Post #746



Yeah I saw that. That's in addition to the export market for the Lithium itself. Chinese companies are all over it at the moment.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2019)

PZ99 said:


> Yeah I saw that. That's in addition to the export market for the Lithium itself. Chinese companies are all over it at the moment.



Yes the demand is rising, but we need to get into the value adding, before it becomes like iron ore or any other raw material.
We can't maintain a first world lifestyle, by competing with third world countries and just digging up and exporting raw materials. We need to value add and get tertiary industry happening, where the lithium, nickel, cobalt etc, is exported as a battery that's where the money is.
Tesla's S.A battery cost $100m, but the raw materials would fit in 4 trucks. We wouldn't get that for 12 ore carrier ships full of raw material.


----------



## moXJO (10 April 2019)

rederob said:


> Only batteries make electric cars more expensive.
> Tesla's are unashamedly upmarket, and Musk is clawing back hundreds of millions in research in order to stay in business.
> Electric cars themselves are incredibly basic, so building them would be a doddle.  Equipping them with the latest electronic gadgetary is also getting cheaper every year.



This is exactly right. How they have not made a viable tradie van is beyond me. And it would need a minimum of 350km range. And thats at the very least with a decent load. 
I've looked around as to whats on offer for trades and there is a long way to go before evs are even considered. 
I honestly think they will need hybrids before full ev.


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## rederob (11 April 2019)

moXJO said:


> This is exactly right. How they have not made a viable tradie van is beyond me.



But they have!


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## rederob (11 April 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Now, just over a day ago there was too much wind in SA and generation from already built wind farms went to waste. Wind was going really well in Vic at the same time too, all running nicely. Now, if only we had the ability to somehow store the wind so we could use it later.....



Just to put this earlier post into perspective, total annual wind power generation (ie electricity) in Europe last year was 100 terawatt hours (TWh) greater than all sources of electricity production in Australia.  By 2030 Europe expects to generate about 700TWh of electricity from wind turbines, which will be well in excess of twice as much as Australia's total output from all sources.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2019)

rederob said:


> Just to put this earlier post into perspective, total annual wind power generation (ie electricity) in Europe last year was 100 terawatt hours (TWh) greater than all sources of electricity production in Australia.  By 2030 Europe expects to generate about 700TWh of electricity from wind turbines, which will be well in excess of twice as much as Australia's total output from all sources.



Just to put the European car and the renewable comparison in perspective, as it is the market place and demand, that drives and funds the growth.
Europe has a population of 740million, Australia has a population of 25m.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Just to put the European car and the renewable comparison in perspective, as it is the market place and demand, that drives and funds the growth.
> Europe has a population of 740million, Australia has a population of 25m.



Yes, but that's incidental to the additional electrical energy requirements of a vehicle fleet that is not presently consuming electricity, and a fleet of similar size by 2030 that will be.
I am pointing out first that from a capacity perspective, all Australia's electricity needs could come from wind energy by 2030 (obviously if that investment were committed), and even if it did not, wind power would be the simplest way to progressively add energy to the grid as the transition from ICE to EV was occurring.
That's because wind is not constrained like solar, so the principle of overnight charging makes sense given that what has already happened with excess wind power going nowhere could in future flow into EVs.


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## basilio (11 April 2019)

There is a range of electric tradie type utes either at  market or close to being released.

*Future Electric Pickup Trucks Worth Waiting For*




JAN 31 2019 BY  JEFF PEREZ 
 87 

*From the Rivian R1T to the promised Tesla pickup, these are the electric pickup trucks to start saving up for.*
The truck wars are heating up, and manufacturers will introduce new and exciting pickups across multiple segments in the coming years. But more importantly for us in the electric car sphere, electric trucks are coming soon.
https://insideevs.com/future-electric-pickup-trucks/


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2019)

rederob said:


> Yes, but that's incidental to the additional electrical energy requirements of a vehicle fleet that is not presently consuming electricity, and a fleet of similar size by 2030 that will be.
> I am pointing out first that from a capacity perspective, all Australia's electricity needs could come from wind energy by 2030 (obviously if that investment were committed), and even if it did not, wind power would be the simplest way to progressively add energy to the grid as the transition from ICE to EV was occurring.
> That's because wind is not constrained like solar, so the principle of overnight charging makes sense given that what has already happened with excess wind power going nowhere could in future flow into EVs.



The other elephant in the room, that no one is talking about, with this headlong rush to E.V's.
Is the depreciation cost involved, the value of the ICE vehicle will fall like a stone, much quicker than the E.V purchase cost, over the same period of time.
Some people, like ASF members, wont notice the cost. Others less fortunate will find it a major burden.
The other social cost will, be the auto related industries will cop a major hit, as it downsizes to meet the reduced demand.
I certainly think 10 years is  fanciful, but time will tell, as usual.


----------



## basilio (11 April 2019)

More detail on the Rivian Pick up truck.
Absolute beast.
*Closer look at Rivian’s R1T all-electric pickup truck and why I ordered it*
https://electrek.co/2018/11/29/rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-truck-order/


----------



## rederob (11 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The other elephant in the room, that no one is talking about, with this headlong rush to E.V's.
> Is the depreciation cost involved, the value of the ICE vehicle will fall like a stone, much quicker than the E.V purchase cost, over the same period of time.
> Some people, like ASF members, wont notice the cost. Others less fortunate will find it a major burden.
> The other social cost will, be the auto related industries will cop a major hit, as it downsizes to meet the reduced demand.
> I certainly think 10 years is  fanciful, but time will tell, as usual.



It really depends where you get your information from as to what you see in the room.
Our next vehicle will be electric, but we are ambivalent about the model or year of purchase right now.  I suspect 2023, but might hold out to 2024.  If manufacturers ramp up output earlier and prices fall quickly, then 2022 is in the ballpark.
It is widely forecast that there will be a long lull in (private vehicle) ICE sales leading into a massive spike in EV sales.  Savvy owners will not want to overcapitalise on a vehicle that has no resale value.
Interestingly, during this lull, quality second hand vehicles are likely to sell well because they will be very affordable to a market segment that has previously been priced out of their desired market.
My view is that the  ICE/EV inflection point will be prior to 2025 because, like with smart phones, EVs offer so much more and the average buyer will not quibble about the extra thousands$$ given that over 3 years they would be wholly negated due to minimal running costs.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2019)

rederob said:


> It really depends where you get your information from as to what you see in the room.
> Our next vehicle will be electric, but we are ambivalent about the model or year of purchase right now.  I suspect 2023, but might hold out to 2024.  If manufacturers ramp up output earlier and prices fall quickly, then 2022 is in the ballpark.
> It is widely forecast that there will be a long lull in (private vehicle) ICE sales leading into a massive spike in EV sales.  Savvy owners will not want to overcapitalise on a vehicle that has no resale value.
> Interestingly, during this lull, quality second hand vehicles are likely to sell well because they will be very affordable to a market segment that has previously been priced out of their desired market.
> My view is that the  ICE/EV inflection point will be prior to 2025 because, like with smart phones, EVs offer so much more and the average buyer will not quibble about the extra thousands$$ given that over 3 years they would be wholly negated due to minimal running costs.



It will be interesting how the manufacturers will maintain the margins, in the change over, manufacturing costs will drop but with it the money made from spare parts will drop.
Interesting times.


----------



## qldfrog (11 April 2019)

What i am really worry about is, as we seem to always follow the eu, the choice being mandatory, and based on the average...
Decision makers are notoriously good at having no common sense
So the average user, in the average city,etc will be ok, but if you are living in the bush, have to carry heavy load or do a lot of mileage, you will be screwed
And the government will tell people in Texas qld to use public transport etc...as they advised in rural france
As for crossing the outback in an EV...no jerrycan of batteries
But i would not mind having an ev charged by my pv, but that is on top of the ute, diesel 4wd used daily on the farm.
Let's see.in the latest renew magazine they have a young guy crossing the world in an ev.had to be towed into coober pedy


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## SirRumpole (11 April 2019)

rederob said:


> , like with smart phones, EVs offer so much more and the average buyer will not quibble about the extra thousands$$ given that over 3 years they would be wholly negated due to minimal running costs.




That depends on power prices.

Once the big power companies get people hooked on EV's it's open season on motorists. Not to mention the loss of fuel excise revenue which governments will have to find somehow.

Which is why I think hybrids are a better deal. At least you have a choice and you can play off the power companies against the oil companies.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> That depends on power prices.
> Once the big power companies get people hooked on EV's it's open season on motorists. Not to mention the loss of fuel excise revenue which governments will have to find somehow.
> Which is why I think hybrids are a better deal. At least you have a choice and you can play off the power companies against the oil companies.



The cost of generating all forms of renewables is decreasing.  The infrastructure for renewables will be the additional cost.
Given that people will be charging mostly from home, overnight, the competitive nature of the market will mean that if there is price gouging it will be at the supercharging station.
I used to spend over $5000 a year on fuel so I know that if an EV were available to me then, the ICE was out cold.  In "average" terms an EV will travel about 3 times further per dollar spent on fuel.  Maintenance costs would be a pittance as there's not a lot to do on an EV.
And when I was clocking up the miles, it was seldom more than 300km on any given day, so range anxiety would never have been an issue.
It's true than excise revenue will decrease, and so will most speeding fines.  But a flipside will be that road trauma admissions will decline significantly, so hospital costs will decline and national productivity will increase.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2019)

There is no doubt it is going to happen, it is just the rate of change and the amount of disruption in the process, that is the variable. IMO
It is the same as the changes happening in power generation, those with little knowledge are driving the agenda, which in most cases ends up in disaster. They want coal out by 2030, when in reality it will be about 2050. IMO


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2019)

An interesting article on the ABC website, they talk to a person in Darwin who owns a Nissan Leaf, also Alan Fells has a few comments.
He broaches on what we were discussing yesterday:
_While Dr Finkel said he could not comment on the business case for manufacturing electric cars in Australia, he said they were simpler to build than today's petrol or diesel cars.

He also said it would be "fantastic" if Australia could use its abundance of lithium to manufacture batteries in the futur_e.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04...tralia-hydrogen-power-exports-policy/10988844


----------



## qldfrog (11 April 2019)

sptrawler said:


> There is no doubt it is going to happen, it is just the rate of change and the amount of disruption in the process, that is the variable. IMO
> It is the same as the changes happening in power generation, those with little knowledge are driving the agenda, which in most cases ends up in disaster. They want coal out by 2030, when in reality it will be about 2050. IMO



what I am worried about economically is the impact on the car repair maintenance and smash industries.As we go into shared and so smaller amount of electric cars with lower maintenance, self driven so less accidents, what will the shops along these industrial streets every city has do?, less tyre, repair,service, brake,etc etc, add no more taxi drivers: what will mining graduates do every down cycle, what will our indian IT specialists do when migrating to Oz?
Any job left?, and no, you do not need many programmers for these new models..
more baristas maybe...again?
or more housing regulations so that we can demolish 10y old obsolete housing to rebuilt...while saving the planet using no bags at woolies


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2019)

qldfrog said:


> what I am worried about economically is the impact on the car repair maintenance and smash industries.As we go into shared and so smaller amount of electric cars with lower maintenance, self driven so less accidents, what will the shops along these industrial streets every city has do?, less tyre, repair,service, brake,etc etc, add no more taxi drivers: what will mining graduates do every down cycle, what will our indian IT specialists do when migrating to Oz?
> Any job left?, and no, you do not need many programmers for these new models..
> more baristas maybe...again?
> or more housing regulations so that we can demolish 10y old obsolete housing to rebuilt...while saving the planet using no bags at woolies




That is the sad reality with 'progress' and technology, the same thing happened to farriers and blacksmiths, when cars were invented.
I am noticing in a lot of the Countries I'm visiting, they are still performing a lot of the jobs that we have made redundant.
I feel a lot of these jobs will have to be re instated, to give people employment, like conductors on trains and buses, street sweepers etc.
There will be a huge change, especially regarding cars, as you say they indirectly employ a hell of a lot of people.
If you have masses of people unemployed, without goals and a sense of achievement, it is a recipe for social upheaval and a loss of fabric.
IMO it can be seen in the homeless already, there is a small step from not working, to social maladjustment, once there it is hard to turn it around. Just my opinion and many will disagree.


----------



## moXJO (12 April 2019)

rederob said:


> But they have!



They are not up to scratch yet. I was looking into them before.
I feel the next decade will bring more options that can actually compete.



basilio said:


> There is a range of electric tradie type utes either at  market or close to being released.
> 
> *Future Electric Pickup Trucks Worth Waiting For*
> 
> ...




These are probably the start of decent utes. But I've heard the "coming soon" line way too often. 

Tesla have knocked up a concept on paper. But they are shocking when it comes to time frames and delivery.


----------



## basilio (12 April 2019)

The Rivian Utes are in production. I agree the "coming soon" line is used too freely. However in the case of electric vehicles overtaking ICE powered vehicles this is unstoppable. The economics are overpowering.

With regard to what will happen to the jobs ? Catastrophic. Unfortunately there will be many more issues causing widespread job losses. The spread of Artificial Intelligence automating far more jobs out of existence is the most powerful cause.

*As SP points out society has to find a productive way to keep people usefully employed and with sufficient money to keep themselves, their families and the broader economy operating.* I don't believe the  free market system  can do this.


----------



## basilio (12 April 2019)

The  outstanding economics of electric cars and the implications for employment are profound.
This analysis in Bloomberg of the impact of electric cars in Germany is sobering.
*The Twilight of Combustion Comes for Germany's Empire of Engines*
The nation that invented the heart of the car at the dawn of the 20th century might struggle to adapt to the coming electric era.

By Elisabeth Behrmann

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2019-bmw-electric-car-german-engines/


----------



## rederob (12 April 2019)

basilio said:


> *As SP points out society has to find a productive way to keep people usefully employed and with sufficient money to keep themselves, their families and the broader economy operating.* I don't believe the  free market system  can do this.



*WHAT!*
You mean posting at ASF is not productive?
What else can sp do when he gets back from holidays?


----------



## basilio (12 April 2019)

rederob said:


> *WHAT!*
> You mean posting at ASF is not productive?
> What else can sp do when he gets back from holidays?




Eh!! so nice to see your dry sense of humour peeking out.

Interesting point you raise though in the bigger picture . What is the economic/social value of the billions of tweets/ emails/posts/  hours on the net currently produced by "everyone" ?
Is it mostly positive, partly positive down to totally disastrous ?
Worth a thought ?


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Eh!! so nice to see your dry sense of humour peeking out.
> 
> Interesting point you raise though in teh bigger picture . What is the economic/social value of the billions of tweets/ emails/posts/  hours on the net currently produced by "everyone" ?
> Is it mostly positive, partly positive down to totally disastrous ?
> Worth a thought ?




I think social media is similar to computer gaming. If people weren't doing it they may be doing more destructive things like getting drunk , driving and killing people.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I think social media is similar to computer gaming. If people weren't doing it they may be doing more destructive things like getting drunk , driving and killing people.



The good news is that EVs won't let that happen in a few year's time.
We can all take a back seat and enjoy other life pleasures .


----------



## basilio (12 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I think social media is similar to computer gaming. If people weren't doing it they may be doing more destructive things like getting drunk , driving and killing people.




Or maybe something else ?? You are being subtly ironical here aren't you Rumpy ? 
This is your sly sense of humour emerging perhaps ?


----------



## Value Collector (12 April 2019)

qldfrog said:


> what I am worried about economically is the impact on the car repair maintenance and smash industries.As we go into shared and so smaller amount of electric cars with lower maintenance, self driven so less accidents, what will the shops along these industrial streets every city has do?, less tyre, repair,service, brake,etc etc, add no more taxi drivers: what will mining graduates do every down cycle, what will our indian IT specialists do when migrating to Oz?
> Any job left?, and no, you do not need many programmers for these new models..
> more baristas maybe...again?
> or more housing regulations so that we can demolish 10y old obsolete housing to rebuilt...while saving the planet using no bags at woolies




Lower the retirement age maybe?

It sounds a bit like you are saying we shouldn’t cure cancer, because treating cancer is a source of good jobs for the medical industry.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 April 2019)

basilio said:


> Or maybe something else ?? You are being subtly ironical here aren't you Rumpy ?
> This is your sly sense of humour emerging perhaps ?




Sure gaming is a waste of time for intelligent people, but there are bogans who are better off , as are the rest of society, being isolated in their own rooms and not disturbing others.

The old saying "it keeps them off the streets".


----------



## Value Collector (12 April 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Sure gaming is a waste of time for intelligent people, .




Time you enjoyed wasting isn’t really a waste in my opinion.


----------



## basilio (25 April 2019)

Ford jumping into Rivian electric ute.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/motori...n/news-story/406181e420987364fcc6b3d1a9d16c43


----------



## basilio (25 April 2019)

If anyone here has a lovely old 911 Porsche and wants a bit more zing out of it - the electric solution has arrived.
*Vonnen Porsche 911 Hybrid First Drive: Electrifying Performance*

* If you want a hybrid 911, there’s an alternative to waiting on Zuffenhausen. *
From the outside, this scene is uncannily common: a Porsche 911 in the canyons around Malibu. But this one-of-a-kind Carrera – a last-generation 991 model – is hiding a little wizardry in the form of a massive, electrically-assisted performance boost.
https://www.motor1.com/reviews/345921/vonnen-porsche-911-hybrid-first-drive/


----------



## qldfrog (27 April 2019)

https://interestingengineering.com/...ces-more-co2-than-a-diesel-car-says-new-study
And it will be worse here in Australia unless your ev is charged from your own PV cells


----------



## Macquack (28 April 2019)

basilio said:


> If anyone here has a lovely old 911 Porsche and wants a bit more zing out of it - the electric solution has arrived.
> *Vonnen Porsche 911 Hybrid First Drive: Electrifying Performance*
> 
> * If you want a hybrid 911, there’s an alternative to waiting on Zuffenhausen. *
> ...



The Vonnen hybrid First Drive bolt on after market boosted performance gizmo sounds like a good idea. However, at $75,000 for an extra 150 horsepower that is only available intermittently seems to be way to expensive to take on.


----------



## basilio (28 April 2019)

Macquack said:


> The Vonnen hybrid First Drive bolt on after market boosted performance gizmo sounds like a good idea. However, at $75,000 for an extra 150 horsepower that is only available intermittently seems to be way to expensive to take on.




We'll see.  It's worth understanding that people rarely use all the power under the hood. It seems as if this fix does  offer more flexible motoring and  extra acceleration if/when someone wants it - but as you point out you can't put your foot to the floor all the time.

Obviously  if the storage battery was increased by a few KW's (it is only 1 kw) the length of acceleration  time would also increase from a minute to 5 minutes before it had to be recharged again.


----------



## rederob (28 April 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://interestingengineering.com/...ces-more-co2-than-a-diesel-car-says-new-study
> And it will be worse here in Australia unless your ev is charged from your own PV cells



People who believe everything that agrees with their narrow minded thinking will keep posting rubbish.
The EV/CO2 issue has been regularly debunked.
It's an idea that then reaches out to what's in the grid.  Well, the energy mix in the grid is increasingly renewable, and that trend is global and onward.


----------



## sptrawler (13 May 2019)

Not exactly electric cars, but an electric ferry I went on a few days ago, pretty impressive. Here is a photo and a photo of the technical specs.






The charge cable at the dock was a decent size, as one would expect.
I must say, I was impressed.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 May 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Not exactly electric cars, but an electric ferry I went on a few days ago, pretty impressive. Here is a photo and a photo of the technical specs.




The future is electric.

Well, OK, that phrase was thrown around a generation too early but we're getting there now yes.


----------



## moXJO (13 May 2019)

Another 6 years before Toyota bring out an EV Hilux. I think great wall is bringing one out as well. Still a while off before these things are cheap enough to be an alternative for the masses.


----------



## sptrawler (14 May 2019)

It all has a long way to go, but the impetus is there.


----------



## Lantern (14 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> Another 6 years before Toyota bring out an EV Hilux.



I got a feeling Toyota will put the hurry up on that.


----------



## moXJO (14 May 2019)

Lantern said:


> I got a feeling Toyota will put the hurry up on that.



I still think we are a decade out from EVs being a significant portion of the market.


----------



## Humid (14 May 2019)

The Hilux is the choice of mining companies and BHP has just purchased a heap of new ones probably because of the safety and ANCAP ratings even though the speed limit is under 60 at the most.
These mines operate 24/7 so when will they charge them?


----------



## Junior (14 May 2019)

Humid said:


> The Hilux is the choice of mining companies and BHP has just purchased a heap of new ones probably because of the safety and ANCAP ratings even though the speed limit is under 60 at the most.
> These mines operate 24/7 so when will they charge them?




Same way they would schedule them in for servicing, maintenance and re-fuelling.  Or you could use vehicles with interchangeable battery packs.

I would think it could get to the point where mines could use solar, battery and other sources to provide power to refuel EVs....combine that with the lower servicing costs of an EV and the economics will start to stack up well at some stage.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 May 2019)

I'd like to see Shorten set an example and convert the ComCar fleet to electric.


----------



## qldfrog (14 May 2019)

Here 


SirRumpole said:


> I'd like to see Shorten set an example and convert the ComCar fleet to electric.



goes the surplus...all that for car doing 40km a day, 5 days a week max on average? Let's get some interesting figures about gov car fleet..i know council car usage is pathetic and we would be better off paying most of the drivers a taxi ride than buying and servicing cars for their use
If the concept of owning a car is now irrelevant for many, a lot of the company cars become even less justified if it is just for a commute to work


----------



## Lantern (14 May 2019)

^^ Totally agree. Lead by example. (Jezzzzz that would be a change eh!)


----------



## Macquack (14 May 2019)

Humid said:


> These mines operate 24/7 so when will they charge them?



What happens when the Bathurst 1000 goes all electric? When the field pitt stops for refuelling, the race will be stopped and everyone will have a two hour siesta.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 May 2019)

sptrawler said:


> These mines operate 24/7 so when will they charge them?



I know practically nothing about running a mine but for what purpose do they have people constantly driving around in utes?


----------



## Humid (14 May 2019)

I'm more in process,ship loaders,stackers,reclaimers,train load out and car dumpers plus Kms of conveyors, surge bins transfer stations
These places are pretty big and it gets bloody hot.....the only walking you do is on the stairs.
Lots of rail .......you don't walk over rail lines,you go around


----------



## qldfrog (14 May 2019)

Transport of personnel for maintenance, change of shift,etc
But mines are not exactly the prime example of ute needs, for ute,think  more farming rural tasks be it the shearer, the pump repair guy, fencer etc..


----------



## qldfrog (14 May 2019)

After learning that a Tesla is more polluting overall than a diesel , not that surprised actually, i was genuinely surprised by the absence of major cost difference between an e.v. and a c.e car if you do not recharge on your home solar
I quote
Tesla’s local website says it will cost $78 to travel 1000km, compared with $89 for a car using 7.7L/100km at $1.50 a litre.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...a/news-story/eaee0a0053036bfa96f707b0bdcecbc1
Anyone owning an EV actually calculating the pure kw cf fuel cost?


----------



## moXJO (14 May 2019)

*According to our host, the battery-powered beastie starts at $59,990 Australian dollars. That, he notes, is a far cry from the cost of the petrol-powered version. The base price on the fossil fuel burner is $25,990 Australian dollars.*

Early but expensive days. But I think the services were capped at $165 for ev. And a claimed 498 km range. I still wouldn't buy that shtty little hatchback for that price. But its the start of a  change and prices will get cheaper.

Australia needs the infrastructure built to cater though. And we are at the whim of the manufacturing world. Realistically we are still a while off.

Talking to a few auto electricians the other day and how they must be excited about the upcoming evs. "Nup" was the reply. Current is enough to fry you and I think he mentioned needing specialist equipment  or something.

Anyway they didn't want to touch them which was a surprise. But thought it would be 15 years before we saw them in any numbers anyway.

Looking at some of the 4x4 utes, they have a max water depth of 900mm to 1000mm. I wonder what happens if you go over that and if there is any risk of frying yourself?

I remember a few petrol cars getting caught in flood waters and ended up in a creek. Bloody thing still started after going underwater.


----------



## Humid (14 May 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Transport of personnel for maintenance, change of shift,etc
> But mines are not exactly the prime example of ute needs, for ute,think  more farming rural tasks be it the shearer, the pump repair guy, fencer etc..




BHP just bought 500 Hiluxs where I have been working....they are the choice of vehicles in iron ore in WA
But tell me more


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

Humid said:


> BHP just bought 500 Hiluxs where I have been working....they are the choice of vehicles in iron ore in WA
> But tell me more



Yeah I saw them everywhere on mine sites. Toyota generally holds pole position on vans and utes. Pricey though...  I'd hate to get stung for a fleet of evs. 
In saying that... they would never get close to matching the range of a diesel with a long range fuel tank. 
I honestly don't see how they would do in the outback areas.  More a city thing.


----------



## Value Collector (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> Yeah I saw them everywhere on mine sites. Toyota generally holds pole position on vans and utes. Pricey though...  I'd hate to get stung for a fleet of evs.
> In saying that... they would never get close to matching the range of a diesel with a long range fuel tank.
> I honestly don't see how they would do in the outback areas.  More a city thing.




Ev’s Would actually be much better suited to out back areas.

Picture a fuel station in the middle of the out back, it relies on tanker trucks constantly bringing fuel from refineries that are 100’s or even 1000’s or kilometers away, and the refinery relies on tanker ships bringing crude from 1000’s of kilometers away.

Then picture across the road a recharging station with a few hundred solar panels sitting in a paddock, producing all the electricity needed to recharge cars and trucks locally, no need for a massive supply chain of trucks and ships.

——————-

I mean even constructing charging stations across the nullabor that look like this would be a lot more efficient than the current system of ships, refineries and tanker trucks.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> Yeah I saw them everywhere on mine sites.



What I'm failing to understand here is why electric power would be a problem?

Are there really people who just drive around mines all day, doing hundreds of km per shift, and never really get out of the ute or even stop moving?

Maybe someone on security patrol or something I could understand but not hundreds surely?

Wouldn't these vehicles be parked outside a workshop, mill or whatever a lot of the time in practice? If so then then if the mine has power from the grid or pipeline gas then the logistics of EV's leave diesel for dead.


----------



## qldfrog (15 May 2019)

One thing i know for sure is that environment is incredibly hard in a mine, just with the dust vibrations i would not even think about putting an ev around
Diesel are simpler basic engines they can swallow dust, be submerged running, shaken..
There is no realistic way an ev with its myriads of batteries connection will not fall in a heap there
It is actually the ultimate test for the ev ute, i doubt i will see this in my lifetime
And not considering sending back the ev car 2000km to brisbane or perth for major repairs
Last place on earth to gave an ev


----------



## qldfrog (15 May 2019)

Ev of sorts are used in mining
Big haulers are either caterpillar or Komatsu
Caterpillar went diesel while Komatsu are actually hybrids with electric motors powered by diesel engine
Draglines are also mostly electric
So mining is not opposed to electricity when it makes sense..
Even if they get diesel rebates


----------



## qldfrog (15 May 2019)

About Komatsu electric drive
https://www.komatsu.com.au/equipment/dump-trucks/electric-mining-trucks


----------



## rederob (15 May 2019)

qldfrog said:


> One thing i know for sure is that environment is incredibly hard in a mine, just with the dust vibrations i would not even think about putting an ev around
> Diesel are simpler basic engines they can swallow dust, be submerged running, shaken..
> There is no realistic way an ev with its myriads of batteries connection will not fall in a heap there
> It is actually the ultimate test for the ev ute, i doubt i will see this in my lifetime
> ...



I would not wish an early death on you, but your comments are so often ill informed.
In fact Queensland unveils a locally produced EV purpose built for the mining industry in a few weeks with significant advantages over FF counterparts.
The mining industry as a whole is moving to EVs faster than the broader transport industry because they offer significant efficiency and cost savings.
You can head off to Toronto next month and play catch up if you are free to learn more instead of making unfounded claims.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> View attachment 94629
> 
> 
> Ev’s Would actually be much better suited to out back areas.
> ...



Perhaps in a mining setting but not for the people who routinely need to drive long distances. You need long range fuel tanks. It can be a long way from point a  to b. And the wet season means you are crossing deep creeks. Red dirt gets through everything, I'm unsure if there is any affect on ev component's. If you run out of petrol its an easy fix. If you run out of battery power the solution isn't as easy.
 You would have to dot charging stations everywhere.
At this stage I don't see it being practical till range and other issues are addressed.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

rederob said:


> I would not wish an early death on you, but your comments are so often ill informed.
> In fact Queensland unveils a locally produced EV purpose built for the mining industry in a few weeks with significant advantages over FF counterparts.
> The mining industry as a whole is moving to EVs faster than the broader transport industry because they offer significant efficiency and cost savings.
> You can head off to Toronto next month and play catch up if you are free to learn more instead of making unfounded claims.



No doubt it will change one day. But the tech is still talked up beyond its current capabilities.


----------



## Humid (15 May 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> What I'm failing to understand here is why electric power would be a problem?
> 
> Are there really people who just drive around mines all day, doing hundreds of km per shift, and never really get out of the ute or even stop moving?
> 
> ...



You would seriously struggle to find a power point that worked


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 May 2019)

Humid said:


> You would seriously struggle to find a power point that worked



Given that mines definitely have electricity, they’re reasonably large users of it either from the grid or generated on site, I see a business opportunity installing power outlets, of whatever sort, in suitable locations.

FWIW power stations also tend to be a bit scarce when it comes to normal power points. No reason to not install some of course, just hasn’t been a reason to historically.

Notable exception of the public BBQ area outside one particular power station that sees regular use by people with caravans running an extension lead to power all manner of things - I’ve seen a clothes dryer sitting outside a van (running) more than once. 

Mines with their existing HV infrastructure would be a perfect candidate for fast charging of high usage vehicles whilst anything which sits mostly outside an office or workshop could be trickle charged. 

Only ones where it’s going to be a real problem are those which really are being driven 24 hours a day - driving a ute being the primary function of that persons job. There’d be a limited number of those surely. Apart from maybe security patrols I’m struggling to see why mines would employ anyone to just drive around their whole shift.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Given that mines definitely have electricity, they’re reasonably large users of it either from the grid or generated on site, I see a business opportunity installing power outlets, of whatever sort, in suitable locations.
> 
> Mines with their existing HV infrastructure would be a perfect candidate for fast charging of high usage vehicles whilst anything which sits mostly outside an office or workshop could be trickle charged.



Suppose you could get extra utes and leave some by the charges so its an easy swap while your vehicle charges.


----------



## rederob (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> No doubt it will change one day. But the tech is still talked up beyond its current capabilities.



Really?
Electric engines have been around for a very, very long time!
Mining equipment companies have installed electric drive trains in heavy-haul ore mining operations and are increasingly moving into BEV underground equipment.
I have no idea what you are talking about, so help us out.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

rederob said:


> Really?
> Electric engines have been around for a very, very long time!
> Mining equipment companies have installed electric drive trains in heavy-haul ore mining operations and are increasingly moving into BEV underground equipment.
> I have no idea what you are talking about, so help us out.



I'm talking utes. My argument is the tech is still a work in progress. Its being oversold as to the capabilities or practicalities. I have no doubt that it will in time overcome said problems.

 Yes electric motors broke a land speed record in 1898 from memory so yes they have been around. 

On electric equipment. 
Ive worked with some older electric equipment on site and once it goes flat you are up the creek. Production stops dead. If its fuel you just fill the tank.

 I'm betting mining companies are not moving  into it that fast just yet. But between robotics and EVs I'm sure they can't wait to automate and run electric purely for cost minimization.


----------



## rederob (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> I'm talking utes. My argument is the tech is still a work in progress. Its being oversold as to the capabilities or practicalities. I have no doubt that it will in time overcome said problems.



Again, what are you talking about?


moXJO said:


> I'm betting mining companies are not moving into it that fast just yet.



Rather than bet, just read what is happening.
Open cut projects are increasingly electrifying and UG mining is moving as fast as it can into BEVs for very obvious reasons.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

rederob said:


> Again, what are you talking about?
> Rather than bet, just read what is happening.
> Open cut projects are increasingly electrifying and UG mining is moving as fast as it can into BEVs for very obvious reasons.



The reality of the situation is in my corner. Oversized and weight, battery tech still needs development.

Simplified: Tech/price ain't there yet for wide scale adoption.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 May 2019)

A complicating factor in the economics in mining would be the affect on other aspects of the mine.

Eg need less ventilation if you're not running diesels underground. So less capital and operational expenditure on that aspect of the mine itself, separate to any saving on fuel costs.

If the mine's in the middle of nowhere but has access to either grid electricity or gas supplied via a pipeline well then electricity (including electricity generated on site from gas) is an energy source that just works, there's no need to be trucking or railing it in on a constant basis.

Just within Australia, well in WA there's plenty of mines not near anywhere but they do have a gas pipeline or transmission line close by and typically one or the other is connected to the mine. Either electricity from the grid or generate their own from gas. Either way there's no fuel to bring to the site since it just turns up via the wires or pipe. 

Less servicing so fewer staff needed to do that and smaller workshop facilities.

Etc so it's not just the fuel cost, there's other factors as well.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> A complicating factor in the economics in mining would be the affect on other aspects of the mine.
> 
> Eg need less ventilation if you're not running diesels underground. So less capital and operational expenditure on that aspect of the mine itself, separate to any saving on fuel costs.
> 
> ...



Noise reduction as well as ventilation. No more diesel fumes underground. Apparently vibration reduction is another. I'm sold on evs and where they want it to go. But its still an evolution, not revolution.


----------



## rederob (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> The reality of the situation is in my corner. Oversized and weight, battery tech still needs development.
> Simplified: Tech/price ain't there yet for wide scale adoption.



The reality is that there are EV options for mines and they are being taken up at every opportunity.
Your claims continue to be, as usual, baseless.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

rederob said:


> The reality is that there are EV options for mines and they are being taken up at every opportunity.
> Your claims continue to be, as usual, baseless.



Yeah its small scale still.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

rederob said:


> The reality is that there are EV options



That was still in development in wollongong uni I thought.
And to further its a trial not production.

BHP plans to share the data it collects from the trial across the company, to help accelerate the broader deployment of electric light vehicles.

That was the original argument. The tech is still developing.


----------



## Macquack (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> That was still in development in wollongong uni I thought.
> And to further its a trial not production.
> 
> BHP plans to share the data it collects from the trial across the company, to help accelerate the broader deployment of electric light vehicles.
> ...



Technology is always developing.

Take my roughly one year old ford ranger that had at the time the top of the range engine being a 3.2 litre turbo diesel coupled to a 6 speed auto transmission. The new models top of the range power plant is a 2 litre bi-turbo coupled to a 10 speed trans. Point being that the nature of technology and the unavoidable lag time to market means the consumer is always buying obsolete products.


----------



## rederob (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> That was still in development in wollongong uni I thought.
> And to further its a trial not production.
> 
> BHP plans to share the data it collects from the trial across the company, to help accelerate the broader deployment of electric light vehicles.
> ...



No, the technology is well and truly in place, and BHP's trials will merely improve the product's performance.
You might be confusing production issues and with technology.
The mining industry is so confident in EV advances that it is planning mines on EV products still being developed.  The reason it's doing this is because the technology is well understood.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

rederob said:


> No, the technology is well and truly in place, and BH's trials will merely improve the product's performance.
> You might be confusing production issues with technology.
> The mining industry is so confident in EV advances that it is planning mines on EV products still being developed.  The reason it's doing this is because the technology is well understood.



There is one of these evs at Olympic dam..... One.
And its a conversion that took 3 weeks. I haven't seen any stats for the vehicle. 

The tech is there but there are issues around the weight, batteries,  if 4x4 then depth of water, before we even get into large scale production issues. 
And that then revolves around rare metals supply if production were to ramp up. 

Cobalt went to what last year  $100,000 a ton?  And makes you wonder how much was being dug out of the ground by the 35000 kids in congo mines. Chinese have a monopoly on the rare metals right now and most of it was from raping the environment. Then theres things like seabed mining. 

Mining 'seafloor massive (polymetallic) sulfides around hydrothermal vents, cobalt-rich crusts (CRCs) on the flanks of seamounts or fields of manganese (polymetallic) nodules on the abyssal plains'.
I'm sure tesla and others were looking at ditching cobalt due to the source. Recycling phones or something.

Now my argument was the tech ain't there yet and production is still very iffy. I still think we have a bit to go yet. There are a lot of issues to deal with. Not just the vehicle and production.

I think evs are going to be the future. But about 10 years before we see anything meaningful or widely adopted.

I think evs will be superior in time. But you cannot realistically compare a diesel 4x4 to an ev at this time.


----------



## rederob (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> There is one of these evs at Olympic dam..... One.
> And its a conversion that took 3 weeks. I haven't seen any stats for the vehicle.
> 
> The tech is there but there are issues around the weight, batteries,  if 4x4 then depth of water, before we even get into large scale production issues.
> ...



What a load of nonsense!
You now start inventing non existent issues to support baseless claims.
EV's are superior *TODAY*.
It's why Tesla is one of the world's most valuable car makers.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

rederob said:


> What a load of nonsense!
> You now start inventing non existent issues to support baseless claims.
> EV's are superior *TODAY*.
> It's why Tesla is one of the world's most valuable car makers.



One ev at Olympic dam....

Tesla, I wouldn't be ramping  that company.

Non existent claims,  you post ev sales brochures and a load of twaddle. Evs are not superior today. You would have to be delusional to think they were.


----------



## rederob (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> One ev at Olympic dam....



So what?
The technology for EVs is highly advanced.  Your claim on that point was not factual.
EV's are being introduced rapidly into a very low volume sector.  
The mining sector already has new mines being built around the technology in advance of the equipment being manufactured.
Your claims of a 10 year time horizon will be busted within 5 years.  That's what the mining industry is saying, so don't take my word.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

rederob said:


> Your claims of a 10 year time horizon will be busted within 5 years.  That's what the mining industry is saying, so don't take my word.



I doubt it.


----------



## basilio (15 May 2019)

It's interesting to see how peoples preconceptions can take them down a particular path in believing whether EV's make economic sense "now" or "maybe in the future".

I went to a presentation on electric cars today and while I did know a bit before afterwards .... ! Basically the economics of manufacturing electric cars is all over IC cars. Far cheaper engines, very simple gearbox a ton less components radiators, fuel systems ect.  The platform system for constructing a  vehicle is very elegant and versitile

Far cheaper energy supply.*  NO  AIRBORNE POLLUTION* 

Battery prices are falling rapidly.  The mining industry  will very quickly recognise the cost benefits of EV trucks and utes. Wait for farmers to work out that an electric tractor doesn't drink fuel  like a drunken sailor and that a 10kw solar panel array will power their gear
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/20/electric-tractors-have-advantages-over-diesels/
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/1...ic-tractor-with-a-really-long-extension-cord/
https://www.solectrac.com/


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> One ev at Olympic dam....




My observation is that the mining industry has, perhaps to the surprise of many although it makes sense if given some thought, emerged as one of the industries keener than most to understand and adopt the technology.

The electricity industry was the keenest and most enthusiastic obviously, hence cars being converted to electric power decades ago as research projects, but mining seems to have seen the potential largely due to the potential for economic benefits additional to the pure cost savings on running the vehicle itself. The issues with fumes underground and so on.

As of right now though, well mines use electricity but mostly not in the form of battery powered road vehicles. So it hasn't actually happened yet despite the enthusiasm.



> Non existent claims,  you post ev sales brochures and a load of twaddle. Evs are not superior today. You would have to be delusional to think they were.




There are niche circumstances where an EV easily beats internal combustion using present technology but as a whole, agreed they're not quite there yet in terms of the overall price + functionality combination. If they were then we'd already have huge volumes being sold to the general public but that clearly isn't the case. It's happening but it hasn't actually happened yet.

The big problem with the entire discussion about energy is that it has become religious in nature. A lot of "belief" stuff in one view or another in a subject which is about science and technology doesn't fit at all well.


----------



## moXJO (15 May 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> My observation is that the mining industry has, perhaps to the surprise of many although it makes sense if given some thought, emerged as one of the industries keener than most to understand and adopt the technology.
> 
> The electricity industry was the keenest and most enthusiastic obviously, hence cars being converted to electric power decades ago as research projects, but mining seems to have seen the potential largely due to the potential for economic benefits additional to the pure cost savings on running the vehicle itself. The issues with fumes underground and so on.
> 
> ...



 I'm excited about evs and will no doubt buy after they iron some of the kinks out. But its not just the vehicles themselves. You need the infrastructure,  skilled technicians,  availability of parts. Some of the tesla owners were waiting 6 weeks for repairs. 

Then if it were to scale worldwide theres a whole bunch of other issues.
Wide scale adoption takes time. 

I think people are getting ahead of themselves thinking its moving faster then it is.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> I think people are getting ahead of themselves thinking its moving faster then it is.



Also worth considering that the barriers aren't just technical but also cultural.

When it comes to energy use overall, cars are somewhere in the middle in terms of the required technology. Not up there with computers and sending things into space, cars have computers yes but you don't actually need one to make a car work (eg any 1970's or earlier car is purely mechanical and electrical, no computers), but far more complex than something like boiling a kettle.

Now on that latter point heating water really is as simple as it gets in all this. Adding low grade heat to the most common liquid. Can't get much simpler than that and it's one of the larger uses of energy globally.

And yet despite extensive efforts toward the mainstream use of solar and other efficient methods to heat water dating back to the 1930's, the reality is that in 2019 most water is still heated using either gas or an electric element and in some locations diesel is significant too. Only in a few fairly limited areas have solar or heat pumps become mainstream technology.

Even more basic than that, simply changing the time of day that electric storage water heaters operate to better suit the changing (more wind and solar) electricity supply mix has thus far proven to be culturally and administratively a bridge too far here in South Australia. 

In the absence of an actual military war breaking out and requiring action, don't for a moment underestimate the cultural barriers in the way of all this at every level from national governments to consumers. 

EV's will happen but there's more to it than pure economic and technical reasoning. If that's all there was then this stuff would happen far more quickly.


----------



## Value Collector (15 May 2019)

moXJO said:


> Perhaps in a mining setting but not for the people who routinely need to drive long distances. You need long range fuel tanks. It can be a long way from point a  to b. And the wet season means you are crossing deep creeks. Red dirt gets through everything, I'm unsure if there is any affect on ev component's. If you run out of petrol its an easy fix. If you run out of battery power the solution isn't as easy.
> You would have to dot charging stations everywhere.
> At this stage I don't see it being practical till range and other issues are addressed.




You are talking about a super small percentage of the population there, 

Tesla model S can get 660 kms to a charge, I don’t think there are many places routinely travelled that have that far between power points.

Also, Tesla evs are completely sealed underneath, they would deal with dust and water better than a regular car.


----------



## Value Collector (16 May 2019)

Tesla model S floats well enough to be operated as a boat for a short period of time.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 May 2019)

Something I'll add is that whilst I'm not expecting petrol to be obsolete in the medium term, it'll be a long slow decline, EV's or some other technology is definitely going to happen. There's simply too much momentum now for it not to.

Hence my recent electrical works at home having made provision for future installation of a 32A (L2 ~7kW) EV charger.

When? Don't know but I'm sure it will be needed well within the lifespan of the other components I've installed / replaced for other reasons hence the provision for the straightforward addition of the EV charger.

That said, a ~7kW charger at home is overkill for any normal use really so a better way to look at it is to say that I've made provision for the easy installation of two chargers of half that capacity. 

Provision as in Consumers Mains, Metering and Switchboard all suitably rated and with physical space to accommodate the EV chargers but no actual charger installation as yet (since I don't have anything to charge with it).


----------



## Macquack (16 May 2019)

Smurf, I have always wondered if you were a boy scout?

"Be Prepared".


----------



## rederob (16 May 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> If they were then we'd already have huge volumes being sold to the general public but that clearly isn't the case. It's happening but it hasn't actually happened yet.



EVs are competitive in certain market segments where they outsell long established marques, and they do it on every metric.
EVs are yet to scale into production, and in a fashion can be likened to what's happened with solar panels.  Prices are also coming down rapidly as the manufacturers tailor products to market segments.
The fact that every major vehicle producer in the world has one or more EV models on the drawing boards and proposes to progressively convert most of their range tells us the race outcome.  The fact that more niche players are entering the market - the likes of Voltra and Rivian - tells us that there are few technological barriers.
The mining sector has different challenges for open cut versus underground.  Open cut already has heavy haul vehicles running diesel/electric trolley trucks (but without batteries).  Haulage operations UG will use BEV technology.  BEV technology UG is superior on almost every metric and will be transformative relatively quickly.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 May 2019)

Macquack said:


> Smurf, I have always wondered if you were a boy scout?
> 
> "Be Prepared".



Nope, no Scouting.

I am however very much a "do it once, do it properly" sort of person.

EV's are coming so if I'm doing something relevant it would be silly to not include provision.


----------



## sptrawler (17 May 2019)

There seems to be a bit of confusion regarding mining trucks using diesel electric drive systems, this isn't new or recent technology, haulpac trucks were using it in the 1970s. It gave better speed and traction control, having the electric motors in the wheels and having the diesel driving a generator, I was rebuilding them in my early 20s and I'm in my 60s now.
So it is incorrect to think it had been brought about or influenced by the adoption of renewables or Bev's.
Also back then in the deep shaft mines, we ran battery electric locos to pull ore carriages to the skips, so it has been a pretty slow progress in reality.


----------



## qldfrog (18 May 2019)

I was not implying it was new, komatsu trucks have had electric drive since i started in mining 20y+ ago.just to say that mining is not opposed to electricity..when it makes senses.
EV utes running around on mine sites is not for tomorrow...
And remember the 6  billions a year of diesel taxes refunded , not even a cost incentive
6 billion is the franking credit labour crappy plan recovery hope....
Good damn economists and environment minded party i am sure...


----------



## rederob (18 May 2019)

qldfrog said:


> EV utes running around on mine sites is not for tomorrow...
> And remember the 6  billions a year of diesel taxes refunded , not even a cost incentive
> 6 billion is the franking credit labour crappy plan recovery hope....
> Good damn economists and environment minded party i am sure...



BEVs are exactly for tomorrow wrt to mine sites, as the sector is small scale and has unique conditions.  That's why this organisation was established.
And apart from the other ute I linked, there's the Bortana EV. 
Mining companies are closely assessing their carbon footprints as they all need to be good corporate citizens.  Those publicly listed want to show investors what their efforts are at CO2 mitigation and BEVs are an easy sell. 
However, the real selling point of BEVs now is that battery energy densities are at a level that enables mining equipment to be readily reconfigured so it's not just as practical, but delivers significant savings to mining operations overall.


----------



## Value Collector (18 May 2019)

sptrawler said:


> There seems to be a bit of confusion regarding mining trucks using diesel electric drive systems, this isn't new or recent technology, haulpac trucks were using it in the 1970s. It gave better speed and traction control, having the electric motors in the wheels and having the diesel driving a generator, I was rebuilding them in my early 20s and I'm in my 60s now.
> So it is incorrect to think it had been brought about or influenced by the adoption of renewables or Bev's.
> Also back then in the deep shaft mines, we ran battery electric locos to pull ore carriages to the skips, so it has been a pretty slow progress in reality.




Some mining equipment runs on electricity via power leads.

Check out this digger, you can see the power cord hanging out the back.




This monster shovel is also electric.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 May 2019)

AGL’s huge coal mine at Loy Yang (Vic, near Traralgon) is very much an electric operation although that’s fed via cables not batteries.

CO2 arguments about coal aside, it’s an impressive operation to see. Great big bucket wheel dredgers digging the coal which goes straight onto conveyor belts taking it out of the mine. So it’s not a conventional “big trucks” sort of mine at all.

They’re mining over a million tonnes of coal every fortnight so it’s a big operation yes.


----------



## IFocus (18 May 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Some mining equipment runs on electricity via power leads.
> 
> Check out this digger, you can see the power cord hanging out the back.
> 
> ...





VC electric shovels have been around for ever along with haul pack trucks etc I worked on electric haul pack motors in the 70's also drag lines started using electrical power in 1912.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2019)

IFocus said:


> VC electric shovels have been around for ever along with haul pack trucks etc I worked on electric haul pack motors in the 70's also drag lines started using electrical power in 1912.



I worked on the haulpac wheels at Fred Tulks, in Osborne Park, before Westinghouse bought them out, did you work there?


----------



## SirRumpole (18 May 2019)

Tough times at Tesla.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05...n-10-months-unless-it-curbs-spending/11126356


----------



## IFocus (18 May 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I worked on the haulpac wheels at Fred Tulks, in Osborne Park, before Westinghouse bought them out, did you work there?




Yeah, Fred sacked me as a apprentice when he used to hire a heap then sack them after 3 months, told me I wasn't good enough to be an electrician (low life I was 15 )union  got me into the state government where I was the top apprentice two years later.


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2019)

IFocus said:


> Yeah, Fred sacked me as a apprentice when he used to hire a heap then sack them after 3 months, told me I wasn't good enough to be an electrician (low life I was 15 )union  got me into the state government where I was the top apprentice two years later.



Amazing, I had finished my apprenticeship at Muja, got a job there and they had overseas workers working with me for 6 months doing the wheel traction motors, then they said I had to do more motors a day, or lose my job.
I pulled the pin and went to AIS at Kwinana.
Small World.


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2019)

IFocus said:


> VC electric shovels have been around for ever along with haul pack trucks etc I worked on electric haul pack motors in the 70's also drag lines started using electrical power in 1912.




Yep, I know just pointing it out.


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Tough times at Tesla.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05...n-10-months-unless-it-curbs-spending/11126356



Yes I heard that time is running out. Sad really, great product, competitive money intensive market.


----------



## Ann (19 May 2019)

*Tesla to update battery software after recent car fires*

_Tesla has said it is updating the battery software in some of its models following two recent incidents where cars caught fire.

The electric carmaker said it would soon begin rolling out the software update on Model S and Model X vehicles. More..._


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2019)

I recently visited a few places in Norway, Denmark, Germany, I expected to see a lot more electric vehicles than I did, I did see a few Tesla's (4) and probably 10 or so BMW i3's. I'm a bit of a rev head so tend to notice cars and bikes.
Just an observation.


----------



## qldfrog (19 May 2019)

Why would you when it is common knowledge that a diesel is more environment friendly, 
and if a petrol head, you can get better CE models there than EV


----------



## rederob (19 May 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Why would you when it is common knowledge that a diesel is more environment friendly,
> and if a petrol head, you can get better CE models there than EV



You must be in competition with Ann for the most debunked claims.
What appears "common" to you is proven the opposite.


----------



## IFocus (19 May 2019)

rederob said:


> You must be in competition with Ann for the most debunked claims.
> What appears "common" to you is proven the opposite.




Also the footage of the Tesla blowing away the V8 super car just makes me twitch


----------



## Value Collector (19 May 2019)

rederob said:


> You must be in competition with Ann for the most debunked claims.
> What appears "common" to you is proven the opposite.




Ships can sail round the world, but that doesn’t stop fringe groups believing the world is flat.


----------



## Value Collector (31 May 2019)

So this happened today. 

Looks like Tesla Model 3 will begin deliveries in Australia in August.


----------



## Value Collector (1 June 2019)

Queensland’s electric super highway 

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/projects/electricvehicles/future/super-highway


----------



## sptrawler (20 June 2019)

China to investigate electric car fires.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/china...ign=tile-3&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=smh


----------



## SirRumpole (20 June 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Queensland’s electric super highway
> 
> https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/projects/electricvehicles/future/super-highway




"Recharging at a charging stations is free until December 2018."

Looks like you have missed the boat VC.

What are the charges now ?


----------



## Value Collector (20 June 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> "Recharging at a charging stations is free until December 2018."
> 
> Looks like you have missed the boat VC.
> 
> What are the charges now ?




I think it’s about 30 cents a kilowatt.

So a Sydney to Brisbane trip would be about $40, compared to about $120 on petrol. 

Cheaper if you charged on your home solar panels before you left.


----------



## basilio (27 June 2019)

Charging your new electric car directly from the sun...  Lightyears ahead. ? Nope here today.
Looks exciting.

*Lightyear unveils its ‘solar’ electric car with 450 miles of range*
https://electrek.co/2019/06/25/lightyear-one-solar-electric-car-range/


Nice story here


----------



## basilio (27 June 2019)

Or if you wanted to go reaaallly , reaaalllly quick - perhaps this model is more in your league. 
*1900hp* electric car..


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2019)

Well I have bitten the bullet and gone full electric, I have bought an electric bicycle and a Segway ninebot.


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2019)

I wonder if these first ranges of evs will be collectors items in 30 years.


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2019)

moXJO said:


> I wonder if these first ranges of evs will be collectors items in 30 years.



What do you mean a bit like the VHS players?


----------



## moXJO (27 June 2019)

sptrawler said:


> What do you mean a bit like the VHS players?




I was thinking along the lines of my old hg monaro. But I suppose evs are closer relatives to the vhs.


----------



## qldfrog (27 June 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Well I have bitten the bullet and gone full electric, I have bought an electric bicycle and a Segway ninebot.



Some more franking credits going to the USA and China


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Some more franking credits going to the USA and China



Sadly China/China, Segway were bought out by a Chinese company, the U.S has the same problem we do.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 June 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Segway



Just don’t ride it up a ~45 degree slope on a grassy hill.

Ends with rider and the machine both separately going backwards down the hill real quick.

From personal experience. Then had to get back on the thing and ride back into town - that’s on the road among the traffic.

That was in Austria though not Australia.


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Just don’t ride it up a ~45 degree slope on a grassy hill.
> 
> Ends with rider and the machine both separately going backwards down the hill real quick.
> 
> ...



I bought an adult scooter, not one of those gyroscopic death machines, I have never had the guts to get on one of those things.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 June 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I bought an adult scooter, not one of those gyroscopic death machines, I have never had the guts to get on one of those things.



Ahh, I see.....

Riding one of those on the road amidst the traffic is a good way to learn real quick how to control it.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 July 2019)

The first electric Mini will be available in 2020.

Short range is a worry, maybe good for trips to the shops and weekend kids soccer .

https://www.engadget.com/2019/07/09/mini-electric-cooper-se/


----------



## satanoperca (10 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> The first electric Mini will be available in 2020.
> 
> Short range is a worry, maybe good for trips to the shops and weekend kids soccer .
> 
> https://www.engadget.com/2019/07/09/mini-electric-cooper-se/




This is perfect for a lot of people who live in the cities. Don't need a car to do 400kms in one drive, given the average daily commute in this country is 36km.

For my family it is perfect, we have a 4wd for long commutes when we head bush, it mainly sits in the driveway 90% of the time gathering dust. Daily commute is a VW Golf GTI, used to go to the shops, school and work, it spends most of it time in traffic.


----------



## sptrawler (10 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> The first electric Mini will be available in 2020.
> 
> Short range is a worry, maybe good for trips to the shops and weekend kids soccer .
> 
> https://www.engadget.com/2019/07/09/mini-electric-cooper-se/




This offering from VW sounds interesting, it will be available with different battery capacities, to suit your requirements. Also it says the batteries will be liquid cooled, which enable a lot faster charging times.

https://www.drive.com.au/review/vol...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-2


----------



## SirRumpole (10 July 2019)

Not a car, but a lovely bit of kit anyway.

Great technical explanations.


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2019)

Further to the VW post below, it looks as though Ford will be sharing the platform, that should bring the cost and time to market down considerably. 
My guess is there will be a huge push to get charging infrastructure in quickly, hopefully the Government demand they bring in a voltage and plug standard, otherwise that will be the next big stuff up.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/volks...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-4


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2019)

Dyson, the battery operated vacuum cleaner manufacturer, is getting into E.V manufacturing.

https://www.ausbt.com.au/dyson-to-build-radically-different-electric-car-by-2020
It looks like electric vehicle manufacturing, will be a crowded space soon, I can see some going broke over this in the not too distant future.
When you have major manufacturers like VW and Ford, joining forces, it will make it hard for smaller manufacturers to compete. IMO


----------



## basilio (14 July 2019)

This is really clever IMV.  The new Nissan Leaf can be connected directly to ones house as a power source and power supply.  So it can charge its battery off surplus solar power and  then be used at night to keep the lights on. In effect one has a 40kw home battery unit that they can also use to drive to work in.  Might even pinch some juice from external chargers and bring it home

* Versatile and Clever... and not that pricey. Less than $50k*

*Nissan sees Leaf as home energy source, says Tesla big battery “waste of resources”*

Posted on July 11, 2019
4 minute read
Bridie Schmidt



Source: Nissan
Owning an electric car in Australia could become much more than just driving from A to B with a reduced carbon footprint, according to Nissan Australia which launched the new version of the Nissan Leaf electric vehicle in Melbourne on Wednesday .

Nissan confirmed at the launch that the new Leaf, with a 40kWh battery, will be a V2H (vehicle-to-home) energy asset – meaning that, unlike other electric vehicles, it will have the capability to charge your home (subject to further testing with Australia’s network owners and operators).

Called bidirectional charging, the 40kWh Leaf (and for that matter the 62kWh version which is not yet slated for an Australian release) essentially has the capability to become your personal, massive, mobile battery.

This means it will be able to not only store energy by plugging into your home, workplace or other destinations such as shopping centres with free charging, or from DC fast-chargers – it will be able to serve that energy back to your home.
https://thedriven.io/2019/07/11/nis...ce-says-tesla-big-battery-waste-of-resources/


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2019)

The infrastructure is going to be the issue. What happens in the city for all those people who don't have a garage?


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2019)

moXJO said:


> The infrastructure is going to be the issue. What happens in the city for all those people who don't have a garage?




Those few people just don’t buy an ev straight away.

But, also electricity is every where, charging stations can be built over night, and quickly match demand as needed.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Those few people just don’t buy an ev straight away.
> 
> But, also electricity is every where, charging stations can be built over night, and quickly match demand as needed.




Power supply isn't even guaranteed for next summer following a round of outages in ageing power stations.

There needs to be a political direction regarding our future energy supply needs, and there just isn't one.

I wonder if politicians even talk to engineers about how to build the things they are suggesting.


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Those few people just don’t buy an ev straight away.
> 
> But, also electricity is every where, charging stations can be built over night, and quickly match demand as needed.



There was an idea using existing light poles. In a lot of Sydney suburbs the streets are packed with cars though.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Power supply isn't even guaranteed for next summer following a round of outages in ageing power stations.
> 
> There needs to be a political direction regarding our future energy supply needs, and there just isn't one.
> 
> I wonder if politicians even talk to engineers about how to build the things they are suggesting.




Petrol bowsers need electricity to, so if charging stations are down, so are petrol stations.

Also, as I have said constantly, 99% of people will be charging offpeak at home, and will start each day with a full battery.

And as Basillo pointed out, EV’s can help augment power supply in the future.


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2019)

Surely a fee to charge would rake in some extra cash.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2019)

moXJO said:


> In a lot of Sydney suburbs the streets are packed with cars though.




Packed with cars that could be charging in the future hahaha.


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2019)

basilio said:


> This is really clever IMV.  The new Nissan Leaf can be connected directly to ones house as a power source and power supply.  So it can charge its battery off surplus solar power and  then be used at night to keep the lights on. In effect one has a 40kw home battery unit that they can also use to drive to work in.  Might even pinch some juice from external chargers and bring it home
> 
> * Versatile and Clever... and not that pricey. Less than $50k*
> 
> ...



$50k is a bloody lot for a lunchbox on wheels though. But I like the idea of it being a mobile powerstation.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Petrol bowsers need electricity to, so if charging stations are down, so are petrol stations.
> 
> Also, as I have said constantly, 99% of people will be charging offpeak at home, and will start each day with a full battery.
> 
> And as Basillo pointed out, EV’s can help augment power supply in the future.




I'd just like to see some analysis based on reasonable assumptions, like if 10% of the vehicle fleet was electric, driving the same average kms as people do now, how much extra generating capacity we would need.

Do you have any data on this ?

I haven't seen anything in the media about the nuts and bolts figures as opposed to blue sky aspirations.

Hybrids still seem the better proposition to me.


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Packed with cars that could be charging in the future hahaha.



You can't have power cords running on the ground, ohs issues. It would have to be an input right next to the car. I suppose carparks next to train stations where you could charge while at work in the city.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I'd just like to see some analysis based on reasonable assumptions, like if 10% of the vehicle fleet was electric, driving the same average kms as people do now, how much extra generating capacity we would need.
> 
> Do you have any data on this ?
> 
> ...




It’s not about having extra total capacity. Because as I said 99% of charging will be done offpeak, when a lot of the existing capacity is sitting idle, doing nothing.

If anything it will help smooth the loads on the grid, and make generators more profitable, which may lower their breakeven price on each units they generate, because their fixed assets will have higher utilization rates.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2019)

moXJO said:


> You can't have power cords running on the ground, ohs issues. It would have to be an input right next to the car. I suppose carparks next to train stations where you could charge while at work in the city.




Or at Coles and woolies while you shop, etc. the possibilities are endless.

But yeah, simply charging at home is best.

The concept of having to drive to a charging spot is old fashioned petrol engine thinking.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> It’s not about having extra total capacity. Because as I said 99% of charging will be done offpeak, when a lot of the existing capacity is sitting idle, doing nothing.
> 
> If anything it will help smooth the loads on the grid, and make generators more profitable, which may lower their breakeven price on each units they generate, because their fixed assets will have higher utilization rates.




Existing capacity doesn't "sit idle doing nothing". It pumps water uphill in the hydro stations ready to smooth out increases in power demands. If it was charging electric cars instead then that hydro power would not be available for water heaters or commerce and industry the next day.

Supply and demand have to be matched at all times.


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2019)

It would be cool if you could use the car battery for electric needs (following on from the leaf) when you got home eg: cooking, tv,  etc. Then charge during off-peak.


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Or at Coles and woolies while you shop, etc. the possibilities are endless.
> 
> But yeah, simply charging at home is best.
> 
> The concept of having to drive to a charging spot is old fashioned petrol engine thinking.



They have two spots at one shopping center I went too and both were vandalized. I agree at home is best.


----------



## basilio (15 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Power supply isn't even guaranteed for next summer following a round of outages in ageing power stations.
> 
> There needs to be a political direction regarding our future energy supply needs, and there just isn't one.
> 
> I wonder if politicians even talk to engineers about how to build the things they are suggesting.




There is a question around  a steep increase in electric cars without recognising the need for an upgraded electricity network.  It is an urgent conversation. But your right; building a strong renewable energy power system is not on the current governments to do list.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Existing capacity doesn't "sit idle doing nothing". It pumps water uphill in the hydro stations ready to smooth out increases in power demands. If it was charging electric cars instead then that hydro power would not be available for water heaters or commerce and industry the next day.
> 
> Supply and demand have to be matched at all times.




If there is no excess capacity sitting there, why do “offpeak” times exist?


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2019)

I bought a bunch of dewalt 54 volt that also work on the 18volt gear. So the batteries are a bit more complex then the straight 18v. The old 18v batteries lasted about a decade and are still running. 
The newer 54v are fantastic but....
About 1in 4 I have bought have issues.
Either complete failure after a few months. To spontaneous combustion. 

Not to sure if the greater amount of electronics in the battery pack itself causes issues or is more prone to bumps. The older gear I could drop 2 stories and was lucky to lose 1 in 10 batteries.

I don't use the gear as much anymore. But the new batteries seem less reliable.

Which is another concern with the cars. Might want to pack a fire extinguisher.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2019)

moXJO said:


> It would be cool if you could use the car battery for electric needs (following on from the leaf) when you got home eg: cooking, tv,  etc. Then charge during off-peak.




The future of the smart grid is this sort of thing,


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2019)

basilio said:


> . But your right; building a strong renewable energy power system is not on the current governments to do list.



Building any power system at this time would be great.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> If there is no excess capacity sitting there, why do “offpeak” times exist?




They are simply times of lower consumer demand. But if a coal fired station is running, it's generating and that power has to go somewhere so it goes into offpeak water heating and hydro pumping, it definitely does not do nothing.


----------



## basilio (15 July 2019)

moXJO said:


> It would be cool if you could use the car battery for electric needs (following on from the leaf) when you got home eg: cooking, tv,  etc. Then charge during off-peak.




That would be clever. And of course if you have solar panels you can direct excess power into the car battery.  
The Leaf idea is excellent and draws on the concept of a very large virtual battery bank comprising of thousands of car batteries connected to the grid and able to give and as well as receive power. 
IMV I think regulators should consider  making it  a compulsory part of electric car design.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> They are simply times of lower consumer demand. But if a coal fired station is running, it's generating and that power has to go somewhere so it goes into offpeak water heating and hydro pumping, it definitely does not do nothing.




Power stations idle back during low demand, and some switch off completely.

If ev’s caused more demand during offpeak times, it would be a good thing for those with capital invested in generation assets.


----------



## basilio (15 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> They are simply times of lower consumer demand. But if a coal fired station is running, it's generating and that power has to go somewhere so it goes into offpeak water heating and hydro pumping, it definitely does not do nothing.




Not necessarily... There is an issue with matching base load coal fired power stations with low demand at night. In fact one of the issues electricity networks face is  creeping over voltage which, if it goes too high, an damage electric motors.  This is particularity noticeable at night when demand is lower but generation levels can't be lowered. 

It would make sense to use excess off peak power to refill small hydro dams. Not sure if that happens at the moment though

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11...ng-increased-electricity-consumption/10460212


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2019)

basilio said:


> It would make sense to use excess off peak power to refill small hydro dams. Not sure if that happens at the moment though
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11...ng-increased-electricity-consumption/10460212




Or charge ev’s, and import less oil.


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2019)

Like I said, they haven't even standardised plugs and voltages yet, the way it is going, every electric vehicle will have to be fitted with a bootfull of adaptors.
Already the Tesla supercharger, can only be used with Tesla's.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2019)

Getting everyone ready for electric vehicles, lets put up the price to charge them.

https://www.smh.com.au/environment/...-half-the-cost-of-petrol-20190715-p527g6.html

A bit rough when it is a lot dearer than residential tarif.


----------



## Value Collector (16 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Getting everyone ready for electric vehicles, lets put up the price to charge them.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/environment/...-half-the-cost-of-petrol-20190715-p527g6.html
> 
> A bit rough when it is a lot dearer than residential tarif.




Charging at home will be at your regular rate or offpeak rate.

But obviously charging at out side charging stations needs to cover the cost of the electricity + charging bay infrastructure.

I believe NRMA electric charging will be free for members.

———-

As I said before, charging stations will only really be needed for road trips etc, because if you wake up each morning with a full battery, you won’t need to charge again that day until you get home unless you are traveling on a road trip or something.


----------



## Value Collector (16 July 2019)

I should have my car in the next 2 months or so.

I plan to have it set up to be slowly charging from my solar when I am home during the day, and boost it with offpeak at night once a month of so if the day charging doesn’t keep up, and then use super chargers on road trips.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I should have my car in the next 2 months or so.
> 
> I plan to have it set up to be slowly charging from my solar when I am home during the day, and boost it with offpeak at night once a month of so if the day charging doesn’t keep up, and then use super chargers on road trips.



Have you got a final price on the model 3 , VC


----------



## Value Collector (16 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Have you got a final price on the model 3 , VC




$79,000 after extras.


----------



## moXJO (16 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> $79,000 after extras.



Thats not  bad. What were the extras?


----------



## Value Collector (16 July 2019)

moXJO said:


> Thats not  bad. What were the extras?




I took the paint upgrade and the autopilot package, and I think there maybe was something else I am forgetting.

I basically took all the upgrades except the performance package.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> $79,000 after extras.



Cant wait to hear your thoughts on it.


----------



## Value Collector (16 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Cant wait to hear your thoughts on it.




I can’t wait either, will definitely let you guys know how it goes.


----------



## moXJO (16 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I took the paint upgrade and the autopilot package, and I think maybe something else.
> 
> I basically took all the upgrades except the performance package.



You will have to start a thread. 

I'll have to wait for the rivian ute to come out. I'm to blue collar.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I haven't seen anything in the media about the nuts and bolts figures as opposed to blue sky aspirations.



It has been looked at seriously in Tasmania quite some time ago by the Hydro and more recently by AEMO at a national level.

Both reached much the same conclusion - from an energy perspective, that is total electricity consumed, it's no big deal but there's the potential for problems if consumers try to charge them at the wrong time which plausibly they will in the absence of action to make sure they don't.

Where that charging concern arises is that most homes are currently on flat rate tariffs and a substantial portion of vehicles are parked at home sometime around 6pm and left there until the following morning. That being so, it seems logical to assume that most will plug the vehicle in to charge at about 6pm - and that's the very time when electricity demand peaks even without EV's.

It then splits into an issue of engineering versus reality in the real world.

From an engineering perspective well a $20 timer from Bunnings will fix it no worries. Just like using the delay start on your dishwasher or clothes dryer fixes the same problem.

Trouble is - about delay start on the dishwasher. How many here really load it up at 7pm and set the timer to run it at 2 in the morning? The odd energy fanatic might be doing it but in the grand scheme of things no, consumers don't do that they tend to run it straight away. Same with anything else where there's no real reason to run it at a particular time - very, very few will consciously shift that load unless there's a financial incentive and even then a lot won't do it optimally.

What's needed there amounts to engineering + marketing but no politics. We need systems that are dead easy for consumers to use (marketing), which charge the car by the morning (both) but which don't lead to a huge spike in demand whilst doing nothing to lift minimum load at 3am (engineering). It could be done with some smarts but by default it won't simply happen - currently for sale EV's don't do that for example.

So it's all in the implementation. Do it right and EV's can bring a lot of benefits to the grid, increasing minimum load more than they increase peak load is about as a good a concept as it gets when it comes to electricity supply. Done wrong however, and that's the likely default, it'll be the exact opposite - increasing peak load whilst adding little if anything to minimum load isn't at all nice.

My view is firmly that the time to get it right is now not once there's been a few blackouts and $ billions wasted by ignoring it. And please, please, please keep politicians as far away from it all as possible - there's a role for engineering and since it's a consumer device also marketing in the approach to how it's done but there's no need for clowns. 

FWIW - I don't own an EV but some recent electrical works have made provision for it most certainly. That's for controlled load (off-peak) charging of course not peak .


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Charging at home will be at your regular rate or offpeak rate.



A related issue is that what time is off-peak is itself shifting due to the use of solar. Already we're seeing days where minimum load is around midday in SA (to the point of renewable energy going to waste in some cases) and it's rapidly going the same way in Victoria. Add in EV charging at night, plus the increasing use of solar, and that's all bearing down rather quickly.

That being so, there's a need to shift the timing of other off-peak loads (eg water heating) increasingly to daytime and that's part of what needs to happen with EV's assuming they're mostly charged at night.

Solar generation and heat water plus a bit of EV charging in the daytime. Low demand for everything else apart from EV charging overnight. That works as a concept - point being that pushing up the load at midday or 3am is useful in itself with more wind and solar being built.

In some states that's dead easy just do it. In others it's a slow plodding progress but will happen. In others it's  with state governments too wedded to the past not the future standing in the way.


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2019)

Don't forget in those low load periods, we will be pumping water up a hill or charging storage batteries.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Don't forget in those low load periods, we will be pumping water up a hill or charging storage batteries.



That's certainly true but the idea is to avoid that step so far as possible when the end use is via a storage device anyway.

Eg go straight from the surplus generation into the car or hot water, since those are storage devices, and avoid the step of going into and out of some other storage system along the way. Reason = cheaper and more efficient.

There will be a need to do it to some extent though. Eg someone on a road trip who simply has to charge at whatever time and that's it, non-negotiable but if the average person isn't doing that daily then it can be lived with.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I should have my car in the next 2 months or so.
> 
> I plan to have it set up to be slowly charging from my solar when I am home during the day, and boost it with offpeak at night once a month of so if the day charging doesn’t keep up, and then use super chargers on road trips.




Great, good luck with it. 

I'm sure we would be interested in knowing how you fare with it.


----------



## Value Collector (17 July 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> A related issue is that what time is off-peak is itself shifting due to the use of solar. Already we're seeing days where minimum load is around midday in SA (to the point of renewable energy going to waste in some cases) and it's rapidly going the same way in Victoria. Add in EV charging at night, plus the increasing use of solar, and that's all bearing down rather quickly.
> 
> That being so, there's a need to shift the timing of other off-peak loads (eg water heating) increasingly to daytime and that's part of what needs to happen with EV's assuming they're mostly charged at night.
> 
> ...




I have put a timer on my hot water system to heat in the middle of the day, look at my solar production chart from yesterday in the photo above and you can see the signature of the hot water system operating.

I plan on charging my car using 2kw/ hour from 8am - 3.30 pm when ever I am home, and boosting it over night when needed.

———

I have an 8.2 kw system, but my power provider made me put an export limiter in that limits exports to 5 kw per hour, hence why I switched my hot water system to middle of day.


----------



## Value Collector (17 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> View attachment 96203
> 
> 
> I have put a timer on my hot water system to heat in the middle of the day, look at my solar production chart from yesterday in the photo above and you can see the signature of the hot water system operating.
> ...




Just to explain the chart above.

Each bar is 15mins.

Dark blue is exported production
Light blue is consumed production

Dark orange is imported consumption
Light orange is solar consumption


----------



## sptrawler (17 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> View attachment 96203
> 
> 
> I have put a timer on my hot water system to heat in the middle of the day, look at my solar production chart from yesterday in the photo above and you can see the signature of the hot water system operating.
> ...



I did similar, originally I had gas hws and cooking, now all electric and rooftop solar.


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I should have my car in the next 2 months or so.
> 
> I plan to have it set up to be slowly charging from my solar when I am home during the day, and boost it with offpeak at night once a month of so if the day charging doesn’t keep up, and then use super chargers on road trips.



Here you go VC, a Harley to put in the garage, next to the Tesla.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tre...tm_content=B&utm_term=Common Tread | Combined


----------



## Value Collector (21 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Here you go VC, a Harley to put in the garage, next to the Tesla.
> 
> https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/2020-harley-davidson-livewire-first-ride?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=07/20/2019_CT_B&utm_content=B&utm_term=Common Tread | Combined




Nice.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2019)

Opportunities for rare earth miners in WA.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07...benefit-from-us-china-trade-tensions/11329444


----------



## sptrawler (22 July 2019)

First upgrade for the Tesla model 3, sounds interesting, range extender.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla...heage&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-3


----------



## SirRumpole (22 July 2019)

sptrawler said:


> First upgrade for the Tesla model 3, sounds interesting, range extender.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla...heage&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-3




VC will be spewing.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> VC will be spewing.




The “performance pack”, that I turned down because I didn’t think it was worth the extra money actually would have had a higher range than this upgrade.

But, yeah I would have probably upgraded to the extended range if it were available as a stand alone upgrade.

But to be honest I wouldn’t really need the extended range, when with the standard battery you start each day with of 400km+ of range, you simply don’t need it, especially because if you are driving 400km’s you will be passing super chargers any way.


----------



## Value Collector (3 August 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Have you got a final price on the model 3 , VC




Getting closer


----------



## sptrawler (3 August 2019)

For those who haven't got VC's deep pockets, don't despair, the Chinese are coming next year.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/mg-zs...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-4


----------



## Ferret (3 August 2019)

Value Collector said:


> View attachment 96203
> 
> 
> I have put a timer on my hot water system to heat in the middle of the day, look at my solar production chart from yesterday in the photo above and you can see the signature of the hot water system operating.




What software are you using to get that chart VC?  

I'd love to be able to see something like that for my solar.  Ideally I'd have real time info on my phone that would help me decide when to run the washing machine etc, but I haven't found anything to do this.


----------



## Value Collector (3 August 2019)

Ferret said:


> What software are you using to get that chart VC?
> 
> I'd love to be able to see something like that for my solar.  Ideally I'd have real time info on my phone that would help me decide when to run the washing machine etc, but I haven't found anything to do this.




My system uses enphase micro invertors, it comes with monitoring software that you can access via an app or login to the website


----------



## Ferret (3 August 2019)

Value Collector said:


> My system uses enphase micro invertors, it comes with monitoring software that you can access via an app or login to the website



Thanks VC. Looks like I'll have to wait until an upgrade is due.


----------



## Value Collector (3 August 2019)

Ferret said:


> Thanks VC. Looks like I'll have to wait until an upgrade is due.




A good thing about the micro inverters is you can add them to your existing system if you ever want to add some panels.

Each panel has its own mini inverter, so you don’t have to install a whole new system, you could just add some extra panels.


----------



## orr (8 August 2019)

please excuse my repeated line of arguement ;
Here we are wanting to tap the U.S stategic oil reserve to protect our National security; whilst at the same time those that project this policy are the same people that suggest electric vehicles are the death of the 'Aussie Weekend ': while every Automobile Manufacturer is busy developing electric vehicles that would give us protection to a degree in regard our reliance on oil.
Foresight anyone?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 August 2019)

$150 to drive across Australia sounds a good deal.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08...-off-grid-and-drives-an-electric-car/11391552


----------



## sptrawler (9 August 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> $150 to drive across Australia sounds a good deal.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08...-off-grid-and-drives-an-electric-car/11391552



Yes I saw that, a Tesla S, nice. You can pick one up second hand for about $80K, I can see you in one of them and a 10m bunnings extension cord Rumpy.lol


----------



## sptrawler (12 August 2019)

An actual road tested review on the Tesla 3, the part I found interesting was the fuel(electricity) consumption.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...s/news-story/b4249d02e7962ff4556ffbadce1c422c
From the article:
_The Model 3’s claimed 460 kilometre range can receive a 270km boost in 30 minutes at Supercharger stations, with charging rates slowing as the 50kWh battery nears capacity. Our test example took on more than 150km in around 20 minutes at a cost of $8.82, or $0.42 per kWh
.
Importantly, the Model 3 is cheaper to run than rivals. BMW’s $70,900 330i sedan uses 6.4L/100km of premium unleaded, with 150km of range costing about $14 at the bowser, or about $5 more than the Tesla_.

If you take a car with a smaller engine than a Beemer 330, the difference in running costs would be marginal, I expected a much larger difference.


----------



## sptrawler (28 August 2019)

New electric entry to the ute market.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/bolli...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-4


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2019)

This VW hybrid isn't coming to Australia, but IMO would be ideal for our style of driving.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/2020-...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-3


----------



## Knobby22 (29 August 2019)

sptrawler said:


> This VW hybrid isn't coming to Australia, but IMO would be ideal for our style of driving.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/2020-...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-3




Nice looking car, hard to go past the Camry Hybrid though in our market.
https://www.toyota.com/camryhybrid/


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Nice looking car, hard to go past the Camry Hybrid though in our market.
> https://www.toyota.com/camryhybrid/




That is impressive Knobby, and at a very good price, I hadn't looked at the Camry hybrid before. Here is a road test, thanks for the heads up.
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/toyota-camry-hybrid-2019-review-117826/


----------



## basilio (29 August 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Nice looking car, hard to go past the Camry Hybrid though in our market.
> https://www.toyota.com/camryhybrid/




I think the "problem" with the Camry hybrid is that it has a minimal battery only range.
I gather the VW has a 50k EV range which means that. in theory, you could do a lot/most of commuting purely on electricity and charge it up each night.

Can't do that with the Camry unfortunately.


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2019)

basilio said:


> I think the "problem" with the Camry hybrid is that it has a minimal battery only range.
> I gather the VW has a 50k EV range which means that. in theory, you could do a lot/most of commuting purely on electricity and charge it up each night.
> 
> Can't do that with the Camry unfortunately.




That is true Bas and I do like VW's, but the Camry at $28k is a bargain, especially if you travel from outer areas into a city.
The Camry would charge on the way in, then run on battery assist around the city and it is cheaper than the *petrol* Camry.
The VW will be well in excess of $50k.
Having said that the VW has a li ion battery and the Camry has a NiMh battery, which does favour the VW, but the difference in purchase price as opposed to the benefits favour the Camry IMO.
To compare the VW with a pure EV would be a better comparison, with regard range and price, the price is similar so then you are only comparing practicality of the drive trains.
At $50k you are looking at the Nissan Leaf and the Hyundai Kona pure EV's, which have a lot to offer, the Hyundai has a 450klm range apparently.
Just my opinion.


----------



## basilio (30 August 2019)

I can see an argument for a a hybrid vehicle which reduces fuel consumption, offers extended range and gives one the flexibility of 2 power sources which can be used individually or together. It was a good idea when battery technology was expensive and it was very difficult to demonstrate the overall value of a pure electric system.

I think it falls down now because 

1) Having a petrol motor and the inter connectivity with an electric motor adds another level of cost and complexity to the overall vehicle cost
2) The rapidly falling costs of batteries  is making a pure electric vehicle more viable
3) People are becoming aware of just how simple an electric car will be to run and service. The long term costs of running a car will/should drop substantially
4) Air pollution issues and carbon emissions are now far higher on the agenda. Turning to electric  vehicles fuelled by renewable energy sources is a far better solution to tackle pollution and global heating.


----------



## basilio (30 August 2019)

While we are looking at cars as mode of transport perhaps this story could put the impact of the motor car into perspective.

Certainly  makes one think
*The Absurd Primacy of the Automobile in American Life*
Considering the constant fatalities, rampant pollution, and exorbitant costs of ownership, there is no better word to characterize the car’s dominance than insane.
https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...d-primacy-of-the-car-in-american-life/476346/


----------



## SirRumpole (30 August 2019)

Hydrogen vehicles getting oxygen in the Oz market.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-30/hydrogen-cars-could-be-commercial-by-2025/11456626


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2019)

My model three actually exists and has rolled off the production line, and is currently in transit from the USA to Australia.

———
Yes, as you have probably noticed with your mobile, it charges from 0% to 50% much quicker than the second half of 50% to 100%.

So when super charging, you can charge to 50% in about 10mins - 15 mins.

Which means, on road trips can drive for the first 5 hours without stopping, then you only have to stop for 15 mins every 3 hours or so after that.

Which when you factor in your bladder, stomach and legs that want to stretch, it is not at all inconvenient.

A 10min pee break here, 15 min grabbing lunch there, and then another pee and leg stretch after that will get you from Brisbane to Sydney.


----------



## IFocus (2 September 2019)

Exciting times VC expect a full write up and pics when it arrives


----------



## sptrawler (5 September 2019)

Now things are getting serious in the EV space.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/moto...r/news-story/ca4e6d36506ed4d22365d757e07b7486


----------



## moXJO (5 September 2019)

Is there any issue with battery life when 
"super charging" ? 

I have noticed a fast decline in battery life in various things when doing a fast charge.


----------



## sptrawler (5 September 2019)

moXJO said:


> Is there any issue with battery life when
> "super charging" ?
> 
> I have noticed a fast decline in battery life in various things when doing a fast charge.



Well the price of a 90Kw/Hr battery for a Porsche, would be eye watering.


----------



## Value Collector (7 September 2019)

moXJO said:


> Is there any issue with battery life when
> "super charging" ?
> 
> I have noticed a fast decline in battery life in various things when doing a fast charge.




Nope, the battery will put live the car.

There are Tesla’s on the road that have been smashed by use as Uber’s and taxis with multiple fast charging each day for years and have only had about 5% battery decay. 

So your regular use will be fine


----------



## Value Collector (7 September 2019)

Tesla Batteries will last 25 years (basically forever)


----------



## SirRumpole (8 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla Batteries will last 25 years (basically forever)





Can we take it that Tesla have a 25 year warranty on their batteries ?


----------



## Value Collector (8 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Can we take it that Tesla have a 25 year warranty on their batteries ?




Tesla has an 8 year battery warranty.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 September 2019)

On the battery longevity issue I think it's too early to really be sure. Accelerated testing under controlled conditions is the best we've got but it's not infallible.

Something I will point out though is that the average car in Australia is about 10 years old. That's the average age of a car, much like the average age of a human in Australia is a bit over 37, but the average lifespan is a bit over double that in the absence of any unfortunate mishaps. Most people don't die age 37 and most cars aren't scrapped after 10 years. Exceptions due to unfortunate mishaps in both cases. 

20 years and 300,000km is in round figures the average lifespan of a car.


----------



## sptrawler (8 September 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> On the battery longevity issue I think it's too early to really be sure. Accelerated testing under controlled conditions is the best we've got but it's not infallible.
> 
> Something I will point out though is that the average car in Australia is about 10 years old. That's the average age - the "lifespan" of a car is on average about double that and with distance about 300,000km over that 20 years.
> 
> Beware anyone who says "life of car" and then claims that to be 10 years. That's the average age of a car, much like the average age of a human in Australia is a bit over 37, but the average lifespan is a bit over double that in the absence of any unfortunate mishaps. Most people don't die age 37 and most cars aren't scrapped after 10 years. Exceptions due to unfortunate mishaps in both cases.



Also a lot will depend on the type of use the battery has i.e heavy loads and high ambient temperatures will affect the longevity.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Also a lot will depend on the type of use the battery has i.e heavy loads and high ambient temperatures will affect the longevity.



Looking at the battery I've got at home, an LG RESU10H, it's rated to 5kW continuous power, 7kW surge but for optimum life the recommended maximum charging rate is 3.3kW. 

Similar issues with most batteries. 

In practice I haven't limited the charging rate but since the solar panels are only 5.11kW and it's going to be extremely rare that they reach maximum output, even rarer for that to occur with zero load in the house, the charging rate won't be above 3.3kW very often.


----------



## Value Collector (8 September 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> On the battery longevity issue I think it's too early to really be sure. Accelerated testing under controlled conditions is the best we've got but it's not infallible.
> 
> Something I will point out though is that the average car in Australia is about 10 years old. That's the average age of a car, much like the average age of a human in Australia is a bit over 37, but the average lifespan is a bit over double that in the absence of any unfortunate mishaps. Most people don't die age 37 and most cars aren't scrapped after 10 years. Exceptions due to unfortunate mishaps in both cases.
> 
> 20 years and 300,000km is in round figures the average lifespan of a car.




300,000km would be about 750 battery charge cycles, that’s nothing for an advanced battery with intergrated cooling like in the Tesla.


----------



## sptrawler (11 September 2019)

Not a big step forward, but a different configuration, gives the battery more energy density.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/light...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-3


----------



## sptrawler (11 September 2019)

BMW X5 hydrogen fuel cell car, due 2022.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/bmw-i...heage&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-3


----------



## sptrawler (12 September 2019)

VW offering for the everyday family, a Golf sized, purpose built electric, with three sized battery options.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/volks...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-1


----------



## sptrawler (12 September 2019)

Peugeot joining the party.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/peuge...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-2


----------



## sptrawler (17 September 2019)

Early stages of solar powered cars, but Toyota have a Prius that can do 56klm on a good day.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...quest-for-plugless-electric-car-idUSKCN1VX0D7


----------



## moXJO (18 September 2019)

I noticed they took the chargers out of one of the local shopping centers. No ecs and a lot of vandalism. Vandalism may well be a problem on a wider scale.


----------



## sptrawler (18 September 2019)

moXJO said:


> I noticed they took the chargers out of one of the local shopping centers. No ecs and a lot of vandalism. Vandalism may well be a problem on a wider scale.



That is a good point, a lot of unmanned infrastructure, becomes a target for vandals. 
Also I suppose with electrical infrastructure, the shopping center could be held responsible, if someone was electrocuted due to damaged equipment.


----------



## Value Collector (18 September 2019)

I picked up my Tesla Model 3 this morning, after over a 2 year wait it’s pretty exciting, I loving all the features, feels very high end compared to my old commodore.

I post a few pics later.


----------



## sptrawler (18 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I picked up my Tesla Model 3 this morning, after over a 2 year wait it’s pretty exciting, I loving all the features, feels very high end compared to my old commodore.
> 
> I post a few pics later.



Congratulations VC, you should have a ball, dragging off the V8's at the traffic lights.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I picked up my Tesla Model 3 this morning, after over a 2 year wait it’s pretty exciting, I loving all the features, feels very high end compared to my old commodore.
> 
> I post a few pics later.




Great news VC, all the best with it.

I'm sure we all look forward to your experiences.


What's the warranty ?


----------



## Value Collector (18 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> What's the warranty ?




I will have to check the paper work, I didn’t actually ask haha, they did mention it comes with life time road side assistance but.

Did a fair bit of driving today, we have 51% charge left and she is currently parked in the garage with a scheduled charge set to start when the sun hits my solar panels, in the morning.


----------



## moXJO (20 September 2019)

VC get outa your damn car and start uploading pics. Make sure you get under the hood.


----------



## Value Collector (20 September 2019)

moXJO said:


> VC get outa your damn car and start uploading pics. Make sure you get under the hood.




Hahaha, so I know I will be labeled a “fan boy”, but I absolutely love the Tesla Model 3.

I took it for a spin up and over Mt Mee this afternoon, and then back into the city for dinner, got home with 44% charge left and plugged her in for a scheduled charge to begin at 7.00am when my solar panels are producing.

—————

A feature I love is called “driver assist mode”, it’s different to the autopilot mode, it’s more like cruise control, except the car will automatically slow down for corners (even on the bends of MtMee) and keep safe distance with cars ahead.

Ofcourse autopilot is great to on the freeway. 

I am still learning bits and pieces, the more I learn the more I love it.


----------



## Value Collector (20 September 2019)

This photo shows the energy usage over the previous 50 kms.

You can see on the way up the Mountain it used heaps of power, but on the way down it started recharging the battery (green is regeneration)


----------



## Value Collector (20 September 2019)

moXJO said:


> . Make sure you get under the hood.




Not much under the hood except more storage space, hahaha.

The motor sits between the wheelsand is only the size of a water melon, so there is nothing under the bonnet except a neat little spot for the groceries.


----------



## qldfrog (21 September 2019)

And if you could find a supermodel to shampoo the paintwork on the same picture?
Joke aside, interested on technicals


----------



## moXJO (21 September 2019)

I'd probably have pulled the thing apart and broken it/ zapped myself the first day. Curiosity always gets the better of me.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Hahaha, so I know I will be labeled a “fan boy”, but I absolutely love the Tesla Model 3.
> 
> I took it for a spin up and over Mt Mee this afternoon, and then back into the city for dinner, got home with 44% charge left and plugged her in for a scheduled charge to begin at 7.00am when my solar panels are producing.
> 
> ...




Nice.

Don't like the colour though.


----------



## Knobby22 (21 September 2019)

Love the look and the tech.
Would love to be in your shoes.


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## Value Collector (21 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Nice.
> 
> Don't like the colour though.




Hahaha, they do have a range of other colours for you to choose from Rumpy, I am sure they will have something that suits your taste.

My colour is called “midnight silver”.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Hahaha, they do have a range of other colours for you to choose from Rumpy, I am sure they will have something that suits your taste.
> 
> My colour is called “midnight silver”.




Some interior pics would be nice when you get the chance.

Ta.


----------



## basilio (21 September 2019)

Should be exciting to hear VC's thoughts on his new toy..

I couldn't resist checking out an extended you tube review.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 September 2019)

basilio said:


> Should be exciting to hear VC's thoughts on his new toy..
> 
> I couldn't resist checking out an extended you tube review.





Nice find bas, 

VC, does your car have air con , if so how is battery use affected ?

I doubt if I would buy a car without it.


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## IFocus (21 September 2019)

VC feeling greener than Qldfrog, great looking car really looks the business


----------



## Value Collector (21 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Nice find bas,
> 
> VC, does your car have air con , if so how is battery use affected ?
> 
> I doubt if I would buy a car without it.




Hahaha, ofcourse it has heating and cooling, Mrs VC would not have allowed me to get a car without AC.

Using the AC cooling does draw additional energy from the battery, but it doesn’t seem to be much, I have had climate control on the whole time, and used the heated seats etc. 

It’s also important to remember that Air con usage also uses additional petrol in regular cars, whether it’s the additional load on the engine to run the pump while driving, or having to run the engine to keep the AC running while you are parked.

With the Tesla, you can have the AC running while you are parked, without having to have a big petrol engine idling away wasting fuel.


----------



## IFocus (21 September 2019)

Is there a run in period or time at all..............just wanting to know how soon you can get it accelerating at full tilt


----------



## Value Collector (21 September 2019)

IFocus said:


> Is there a run in period or time at all..............just wanting to know how soon you can get it accelerating at full tilt




They didn’t mention any sort of run in period, I have tested out it’s acceleration a fair bit, even though I didn’t get the performance model (which has dual motors) it is definitely the quickest car I have ever driven.

It’s a totally different feeling to go from 0 to 110 in a few seconds with absolutely no gear changes or all lag.

You plant your foot and the car feels like it is pulled forward by a high speed tow cable or something, because it quite and there is no lag of gear changing, it’s just one solid acceleration.


----------



## bi-polar (21 September 2019)

Steam tractors used the power of the steam engine itself to power a drive train to move the machine .These drive mechanisms were one of three types: chain, shaft, and open pinion. The open pinion became the most popular design due to its strength. Later improvements included power steering, differentials, compounded engines, and butt-strap boiler design. Acceleration was mind-blowing , smooth and silent and they brewed tea , coffee or porridge.


----------



## Value Collector (22 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> Steam tractors used the power of the steam engine itself to power a drive train to move the machine .These drive mechanisms were one of three types: chain, shaft, and open pinion. The open pinion became the most popular design due to its strength. Later improvements included power steering, differentials, compounded engines, and butt-strap boiler design. Acceleration was mind-blowing , smooth and silent and they brewed tea , coffee or porridge.




Hopping back into my commodore after driving the Tesla feels like driving an old chugging steam engine hahaha


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## bi-polar (23 September 2019)

I doubt it , how do you cook?https://www.wikihow.com/Cook-Food-on-Your-Car's-Engine


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## Value Collector (23 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> I doubt it , how do you cook?https://www.wikihow.com/Cook-Food-on-Your-Car's-Engine




Petrol cars do lose a lot of energy as wasted heat, that’s why they are such an inefficient system, so I can see why someone might want to try and think of an inventive way to use this wasted heat/money.

However, Ev owners will probably just do something more sensible and use an actual cooking appliance to cook food.

Hell, the money we save vs paying for petrol means we can buy a take away meal and still spend less money than the guy stuff sausages into his engine bay hahahaha


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## bi-polar (23 September 2019)

Sitting in a queue breathing CO2, CO and N2O while the steam conveyance cruises past , no hands on wheel , feet up and breakfasting with view above landcruiser roofs.


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## Value Collector (23 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> Sitting in a queue breathing CO2, CO and N2O while the steam conveyance cruises past , no hands on wheel , feet up and breakfasting with view above landcruiser roofs.




What co2, you mean the Co2 belching from petrol cars? 

You are kinda proving my point here.


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## SirRumpole (23 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> What co2, you mean the Co2 belching from petrol cars?
> 
> You are kinda proving my point here.




Stuff that comes out of cars is carbon monoxide (CO), not carbon dioxide.

Pardon the nitpicking.


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## bi-polar (23 September 2019)

Burning 1 litre petrol gives 2.3kg CO2 .  Within the lounge-room of the steam omnibus, noxious fumes are avoided by flue pipes wafting away any fire-box products. Pipes about $45 for extra height.
*Stove & Chimney Pipes for sale | eBay*

[URL='https://www.ebay.com.au/b/Stove-Chimney-Pipes/175803/bn_7202999']https://www.ebay.com.au › ... › Stove & Chimney Pipes[/URL]


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## bi-polar (23 September 2019)

Notice how traffic is out of sight for these relaxed commuters, anticipating a steamed breakfast.
*Strath Steam - Australian Suppliers Directory - Austrade*

https://www.austrade.gov.au › SupplierDetails


----------



## Value Collector (23 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Stuff that comes out of cars is carbon monoxide (CO), not carbon dioxide.
> 
> Pardon the nitpicking.



Actually both are present in car exhaust, 
Pardon the nit picking, haha


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## Value Collector (23 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> Notice how traffic is out of sight for these relaxed commuters, anticipating a steamed breakfast.
> *Strath Steam - Australian Suppliers Directory - Austrade*
> 
> https://www.austrade.gov.au › SupplierDetails




Your original post I quoted was talking about a guy stuffing sausages into a cars engine.

Not sure why you are comparing an electric car to a tourist train.

Anyway, I will leave you to your little fantasy about trains and steam boxes, while I get around the country in my electric car powered by solar.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Actually both are present in car exhaust,
> Pardon the nit picking, haha




OK I got that wrong, things must have changed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas


----------



## bi-polar (23 September 2019)

The "tourist train" you so casually denigrate is one of the recent up-grades to Steam Transport, the solution to fine city driving.
Petrol cars produce carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, formaldehyde, benzene  .
Qld has 73 wind turbines 200MW in the state production of above 14000MW mostly coal. Chances are that carriages driven by electricus are causing coal pollutants. They include mercury, lead, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, particulates, and various other heavy metals. Health impacts can range from asthma and breathing difficulties, to brain damage, heart problems, cancer, neurological disorders, and premature death.


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## moXJO (23 September 2019)

What are the downsides to evs so far?


----------



## Value Collector (23 September 2019)

moXJO said:


> What are the downsides to evs so far?



None that I have found so far.


----------



## Value Collector (23 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> The "tourist train" you so casually denigrate is one of the recent up-grades to Steam Transport, the solution to fine city driving.
> Petrol cars produce carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, formaldehyde, benzene  .
> Qld has 73 wind turbines 200MW in the state production of above 14000MW mostly coal. Chances are that carriages driven by electricus are causing coal pollutants. They include mercury, lead, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, particulates, and various other heavy metals. Health impacts can range from asthma and breathing difficulties, to brain damage, heart problems, cancer, neurological disorders, and premature death.




My electric car is powered by the sun.

But good luck with your steam train or what ever it is you are babbling about.

Maybe start another thread to explain the benefits of the steam engine and provide current examples of how it could be used effectively today.


----------



## bi-polar (23 September 2019)

Avoid waiting in lines for greasy kid food , start your day with wood-roasted excellence.


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## Value Collector (23 September 2019)

bi-polar said:


> Avoid waiting in lines for greasy kid food , start your day with wood-roasted excellence.



 So how is this train on the other side of the world going to help me pick up the groceries and drive around town?

Forget it, don’t bother answering, you are too nonsensical to waste my time on.


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## SirRumpole (23 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> None that I have found so far.




Let us know after an interstate trip if you can find charging points when you need them.


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## Value Collector (23 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Let us know after an interstate trip if you can find charging points when you need them.




The car finds them for you, you just put your destination into the system, and it navigates you on a route and tells where to stop.

There are charging locations all the way from Melbourne to cairns.

I drive between Sydney and Brisbane a few times a year, and already know where the super chargers on that route are, and where I will stop to charge.

I have been passing the superchargers for the last couple of years looking forward to charging there.


----------



## Macquack (23 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> My electric car is powered by the sun.



I don't think the average punter will be as lucky as you VC in getting free motive power from the sun, as generally cars are parked up all week days at work with no access to free solar power.

Looking forward to hearing more feedback from a "switched on" guy taking the lead and being a pioneer.


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## Value Collector (23 September 2019)

Macquack said:


> I don't think the average punter will be as lucky as you VC in getting free motive power from the sun, as generally cars are parked up all week days at work with no access to free solar power.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing more feedback from a "switched on" guy taking the lead and being a pioneer.




Even if you are at work during the day, your solar panels are still at home feeding power into the grid, so when you get home and charge your car that night the power you use is completely offset by green power you produced earlier.

And even if you rely on the grid 100%, the grid itself is getting cleaner and cleaner all the time.

But also, the average person would only need to charge once a week, even if you wanted to charge 100% using your own direct power, you could do it on the week end.


----------



## basilio (24 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> And even if you rely on the grid 100%, the grid itself is getting cleaner and cleaner all the time.
> 
> But also, the average person would only need to charge once a week, even if you wanted to charge 100% using your own direct power, you could do it on the week end.




Spot on...Would love an electric car in particular Tesla but still out of my price range.


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## sptrawler (24 September 2019)

basilio said:


> Spot on...Would love an electric car in particular Tesla but still out of my price range.



Like the rest of us Bas, you will just have to keep polluting the planet, until you can afford to make a change.


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## basilio (24 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Like the rest of us Bas, you will just have to keep polluting the planet, until you can afford to make a change.




Or perhaps walk, ride my bike, take the train or just play in the garden ?
More than one way to skin a cat..


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## basilio (24 September 2019)

* Canberra family shuns cars for cycling and public transport for 40 year *
Local News

facebookSHARE
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One Canberra family will have a head start on the government's plan to push people away from commuting by car having travelled almost solely by bike or bus for the past 40 years.

The Mason family, Nancy, holding grandson James, John, and daughters Nadezhda and Anna, who do their absolute best to avoid using cars in favour of cycling or public transport to commute.
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/st...-that-has-shunned-cars-for-40-years/?cs=14225


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## sptrawler (24 September 2019)

basilio said:


> Or perhaps walk, ride my bike, take the train or just play in the garden ?
> More than one way to skin a cat..



Yes, the wife and I have 9 bikes, two electric, two mountain bikes(+ a spare) and four hybrids  and that's not including the two segway electric scooters to be able to carry on public transport.
How are you going with alternative transport?


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## sptrawler (24 September 2019)

With a slowing World economy, stagnant consumer spending and nothing on the horizon to stimulate or motivate a shift from the status quo. 
I wouldn't be surprised, if some serious steps are made, to accelerate the change over to electric cars. There is a huge amount of stimulus with a forced change from I.C to electric vehicles.


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## qldfrog (24 September 2019)

But the clear winners will not be in Australia as we do not produce EVs, as for stimulus by mining battery metals..not really that great effect


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## qldfrog (24 September 2019)

Europe is using the co2 fight as a stimulus,. More solar wind turbines and first of all insulation and energy saving measures
Our pink batts
Better than throwing helicopter money but does not build an economy


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## sptrawler (24 September 2019)

qldfrog said:


> But the clear winners will not be in Australia as we do not produce EVs, as for stimulus by mining battery metals..not really that great effect



There is mutterings of a battery industry being established in Perth, we have the lithium processing plant, graphite& battery quality nickel production. All it would take is someone with the will and the money.


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## qldfrog (24 September 2019)

The money and the will to forgo 30pc profit,51 pc of own pay, have costly red tape, delays, union, councils and green protest vs staying in Asia to work, succeed and benefit
Is that a choice?


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## sptrawler (24 September 2019)

qldfrog said:


> The money and the will to forgo 30pc profit,51 pc of own pay, have costly red tape, delays, union, councils and green protest vs staying in Asia to work, succeed and benefit
> Is that a choice?



I know what you are saying, but you have to live in hope, what else do we have.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-10/new-$135m-lithium-battery-research-centre-for-wa/10990222


----------



## basilio (24 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, the wife and I have 9 bikes, two electric, two mountain bikes(+ a spare) and four hybrids  and that's not including the two segway electric scooters to be able to carry on public transport.
> How are you going with alternative transport?




Very impressive SP..   Delighted to see your supporting the industry.  We just have a couple of  push bikes. Works for us.

Just for the record. Yeah I would "love" a Tesla, and in fact I could pony up the brass for it but frankly at the moment there are other things I would spend my savings on.

It will be good to see cost effective  electric cars.  From an engineering point of view they will have to be much cheaper than IC cars with simpler motors, less components and so on. And the disappearance of toxic fumes has to be a clear winner.

Current battery cost is high but that should reduce quickly with advancing technologies.

I agree with your observations about the opportunity for an economic stimulus with a change to EV cars.  Its an interesting observation because one of points made about an all out response to CC is the boost it would make to employment and economic activity. 
https://theconversation.com/america-can-afford-a-green-new-deal-heres-how-111681


----------



## Value Collector (24 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> With a slowing World economy, stagnant consumer spending and nothing on the horizon to stimulate or motivate a shift from the status quo.
> I wouldn't be surprised, if some serious steps are made, to accelerate the change over to electric cars. There is a huge amount of stimulus with a forced change from I.C to electric vehicles.




An increase in EV's would help Australia's balance of trade by reducing oil imports, not to mention increase employment and investment opportunities in local energy infrastructure. 

Also, The government spends $1 Billion plus a year on air pollution related health care, some of that Billion could be put to use in other areas.


----------



## Value Collector (24 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, the wife and I have 9 bikes, two electric, two mountain bikes(+ a spare) and four hybrids  and that's not including the two segway electric scooters to be able to carry on public transport.
> How are you going with alternative transport?




Have a garage sale and you could afford a Tesla by the sounds of it


----------



## sptrawler (24 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Have a garage sale and you could afford a Tesla by the sounds of it



We actually enjoy the bicycling and do a lot of it, we always use them for shopping unless there is something large to be purchased. The mountain bikes are expensive but do get used off road, we are looking at doing the Cape to Cape and have done the Munda Biddi from Albany to Perth. Love the electrics just a lot of fun and the Segway ninebots are just for running down to Bunnings or to the pub. 
The car only really gets used if we have to travel outside Perth.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

Those bemoaning the lack of an EV industry had the opportunity to change that at the last election.

Establishment of an EV industry was part of one parties policies I believe.


----------



## qldfrog (25 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Those bemoaning the lack of an EV industry had the opportunity to change that at the last election.
> 
> Establishment of an EV industry was part of one parties policies I believe.



SirRumpole, i genuinely respect you but you do not establish an industry by throwing billions on it and choosing, by incompetent committee,what you focus on
You prepare a fertile soil for ideas and companies, and Australia is so far off the mark it is not funny
Be it corporate and individual taxes, but probably worse the red tape, daily struggle where you have to do the ato job, and more and more of it
From your comments, i doubt you have own a business recently, and definitely can not compare with some overseas experience
We are not playing on level fields
Ev will not be dominated by high end tesla but chinese made byd, by the time we can buy them here, chinese designed Vietnamese built
Waiting for their arrival here to make the jump, hope i will be rich enough to afford


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Those bemoaning the lack of an EV industry had the opportunity to change that at the last election.
> 
> Establishment of an EV industry was part of one parties policies I believe.




Unfortunately the Prine minister has shown he is a complete fool in understanding the electric vehicles.  

He claims Ev’s Will bring about an end to the Australian weekend, what a fool!!!

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mod...a-despite-governments-questionable-ev-stance/


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

qldfrog said:


> SirRumpole, i genuinely respect you but you do not establish an industry by throwing billions on it and choosing, by incompetent committee,what you focus on
> You prepare a fertile soil for ideas and companies, and Australia is so far off the mark it is not funny
> Be it corporate and individual taxes, but probably worse the red tape, daily struggle where you have to do the ato job, and more and more of it
> From your comments, i doubt you have own a business recently, and definitely can not compare with some overseas experience
> ...




Maybe the Labor party would have done exactly what you suggested why do you think they wouldnt ?


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Unfortunately the Prine minister has shown he is a complete fool in understanding the electric vehicles.
> 
> He claims Ev’s Will bring about an end to the Australian weekend, what a fool!!!
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mod...a-despite-governments-questionable-ev-stance/




I Wish Scomo took the time to search YouTube for 2 mins before making silly claims.

Tesla’s can tow caravans, and boats no problem.


----------



## IFocus (25 September 2019)

Are not all car manufacturing subsidised world wide? After all we subsidise mining.

I keep thinking about the risk of only having 20 days of petrol reserve from a security perspective wouldn't take much to knock Australia over.


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2019)

IFocus said:


> Are not all car manufacturing subsidised world wide? After all we subsidise mining.
> 
> I keep thinking about the risk of only having 20 days of petrol reserve from a security perspective wouldn't take much to knock Australia over.




We don’t subsidize mining, mining generates massive net profits to the Australian government, via royalties and company tax.

Sure the government offers a few incentives here and there to help get marginal projects off the ground, but that is more of an investment than a subsidy, because the intent is to get a return on that investment in the form of royalties and taxes later.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Unfortunately the Prine minister has shown he is a complete fool in understanding the electric vehicles.
> 
> He claims Ev’s Will bring about an end to the Australian weekend, what a fool!!!
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mod...a-despite-governments-questionable-ev-stance/




But what about the utes ?

EV's will put tradies out of business ! (Michalea Cash).

Even captain smirk had a laugh about this.


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> But what about the utes ?
> 
> EV's will put tradies out of business ! (Michalea Cash).
> 
> Even captain smirk had a laugh about this.





Idiots, what makes them think ev utes are impossible? 

Tesla is already working on a pickup truck/ Ute.


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2019)

Here is a Tesla Ute for her.


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2019)

There is no way in hell, we would ever be able to support a car industry in a Global market, we sell 1 million cars a year in total, China alone makes over 12million.
We talk about inefficient use of energy and materials, the car industry with the low numbers epitomised that.
It would be ridiculous in this day and age, as was proven, let's not make this thread like the climate change thread. Please


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> There is no way in hell, we would ever be able to support a car industry in a Global market, we sell 1 million cars a year., China alone makes over 12million.
> We talk about inefficient use of energy and materials, the car industry with the low numbers epitomised that.
> It would be ridiculous in this day and age, as was proven, let's not make this thread like the climate change thread. Please




Electric bikes perhaps ?


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Electric bikes perhaps ?



We did have a bicycle industry "Malvern Star", alas it went the same way as most of our manufacturing, volume is the key to any industry in a globalised market place unfortunately.
Our lack of population, not will or skill is the problem, unless it is something easily transported to market i.e software, apps, AI, possibly batteries may fit that niche.
But anything big, that takes up volume to be transported to market, is at a major disadvantage in Australia when compared to manufactures with low labour costs, low energy costs and a large home market. They will blow us out of the water every time, it all sounds nice warm and feel good, but in reality how would Holden or Ford be going in the current consumer climate? Up the $hit is my guess.
Unfortunately GM nor Ford or Toyota, were prepared to subsidies their car industry in Australia, because of those very same issue above, it is unsustainable and the pin would have to be pulled sooner or later.
We want more spent on education, welfare, health etc, start throwing unsustainable industries into the basket and in this global trading environment we would become third World in quick time.IMO
Getting back to bicycles, you can buy a 21 speed mountain bike or hybrid at Big W or Kmart for $99, how the hell could we compete with that? 
It would cost us more than that in labour, just to attach the wheels and put the seat on a bike.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> We did have a bicycle industry "Malvern Star", alas it went the same way as most of our manufacturing, volume is the key to any industry in a globalised market place unfortunately.
> Our lack of population, not will or skill is the problem, unless it is something easily transported to market i.e software, apps, AI, possibly batteries may fit that niche.
> But anything big, that takes up volume to be transported to market, is at a major disadvantage in Australia when compared to manufactures with low labour costs, low energy costs and a large home market. They will blow us out of the water every time, it all sounds nice warm and feel good, but in reality how would Holden or Ford be going in the current consumer climate? Up the $hit is my guess.




Most of our manufacturing has been sacrificed at the altar of "free trade", which in reality doesn't exist, or at least "fair trade" doesn't exist.

If we want a manufacturing industry in any area we need tariffs that level out the playing field in terms of wages and conditions. Trading blocs like Europe and low wage countries have taken us for a ride for years. 

We used to make tv sets , white goods , cars and people could afford to buy them because they were earning good money making the things in the first place. 

I just don't think we actually want to have a manufacturing industry any more. It's just too easy to buy cheap imported stuff and wonder why we can't get our unemployment/under employment rates down and why our wages aren't increasing.


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Most of our manufacturing has been sacrificed at the altar of "free trade", which in reality doesn't exist, or at least "fair trade" doesn't exist.
> 
> If we want a manufacturing industry in any area we need tariffs that level out the playing field in terms of wages and conditions. Trading blocs like Europe and low wage countries have taken us for a ride for years.
> 
> ...



Exactly Rumpy, which is what Trump is trying to sort out to a degree with China, yet all our press and virtue signalers are bagging the crap out of him.
Common sense is the first thing that has disappeared from the Australian population, with the fall in educational outcomes IMO, that is why APRA and ASIC are getting hammered ATM they are applying public opinion not common sense to the problems.

The only other way to make us competitive with these other Countries with manufacturing, is to have their pay and conditions plus their power costs, see how everyone would like that. Absolute FW's IMO
As I said a long time ago, this was all brought about by the Lima accord, to help lift the living standards of the third world countries, it has worked as proven by China. But a brake needs to applied, otherwise we become the third world nations.
What is laughable, is the only person trying to stop it, they are trying to throw out of office, it shows the power of the press.lol


----------



## qldfrog (25 September 2019)

Abc of business plan if doing business in Australia in competition with world:
No physical goods due to transport delay and costs, low manpower need
So in short, we can design or and sell movies,software, and that's about it..
The rest: australian raw products, wool, farm products and tourism education are not in competition with the world, when they are we fail
Back to the thread, maybe we could try to build solar chargers, something leveraging our advantage
Or sell ip like fast charger components..we have asx listed rff or rft?


----------



## Jack Aubrey (25 September 2019)

As the EV wave gathers momentum, there is now growing debate about the future resale value of petrol/diesel vehicles.  If EV economics pan out as many expect, many people will move to EVs over a fairly short timeframe (say 4-5 years).  Depending on the oil price, there might be some nice bargains in second-hand Beemers etc. for those not willing to take the plunge.  Personally, I have resolved to drive my 2006 Honda into the ground (hopefully another 2 years away) and then go for nice middle-of-the-road EV with a decent 700km+ range.  The Honda will not be worth its weight in horse poo so I will  fund this with the enormous profits from my $7,000 share trading portfolio.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> As the EV wave gathers momentum, there is now growing debate about the future resale value of petrol/diesel vehicles.  If EV economics pan out as many expect, many people will move to EVs over a fairly short timeframe (say 4-5 years).  Depending on the oil price, there might be some nice bargains in second-hand Beemers etc. for those not willing to take the plunge.  Personally, I have resolved to drive my 2006 Honda into the ground (hopefully another 2 years away) and then go for nice middle-of-the-road EV with a decent 700km+ range.  The Honda will not be worth its weight in horse poo so I will  fund this with the enormous profits from my $7,000 share trading portfolio.




Personally I think it's going to take longer than 4-5 years for the EV revolution to take off here barring serious obstructions to oil supply. 

Apart from a few pioneers (VC), people like to stick with what they know unless they are forced to do otherwise or the alternatives are much more attractive. 

I think there is a place for  transition vehicles like hybrids which give the advantages of both EV's for city use and petrol/diesel for country trips , and will give competition to prevent either the Elcos or the oil companies from hiking prices if they see an advantage.


----------



## qldfrog (25 September 2019)

If useful, right now in china, you can get a new electric 2 seats scooter vespa style,for below 350aud
I expect parallel pricing for a byd small city car below 20k


----------



## basilio (25 September 2019)

There are some compelling reasons to  anticipate  China to become a world leader in EV sales within a few years. Worth a read.

*  The electric vehicle revolution will come from China, not the US  *
May 14, 2019 8.45pm AEST
*Author*




	

		
			
		

		
	
 Jack Barkenbus 
Visiting Scholar, Vanderbilt Institute for Energy & Environment, Vanderbilt Universit
The electric vehicle revolution is coming, but it won’t be driven by the U.S. Instead, China will be at the forefront.

My research on EVs, dating back a decade, convinces me that this global transformation in mobility, from petroleum-fueled vehicles to electric ones, will come sooner than later. The shift is already happening in China, which is the world’s largest automobile market, with 23 million cars sold in 2018. As Western countries approach peak car ownership, there are still hundreds of millions of Chinese families that don’t own a car at all – much less two or more.
https://theconversation.com/the-electric-vehicle-revolution-will-come-from-china-not-the-us-116102


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2019)

qldfrog said:


> If useful, right now in china, you can get a new electric 2 seats scooter vespa style,for below 350aud
> I expect parallel pricing for a byd small city car below 20k



When I was in Beijing a couple of years ago, all there were was electric scooters, not one petrol scooter on the street.


----------



## IFocus (25 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> We don’t subsidize mining, mining generates massive net profits to the Australian government, via royalties and company tax.




Don't want to start a bun fight but governments do subsidise mining fuel excise is rather large alone see link which will likely to be biased but still valid.

https://www.tai.org.au/content/what-have-state-mining-subsidies-cost-you

Most of the money for mining oil and gas leaves Australia but agree standard of living would be halved without it just a pity the small returns are not used to start a future for next generations.


----------



## basilio (25 September 2019)

Bit more on Chinese electric scooters
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/why...e-leading-electric-vehicle-revolution-in-asia


----------



## qldfrog (25 September 2019)

IFocus said:


> Don't want to start a bun fight but governments do subsidise mining fuel excise is rather large alone see link which will likely to be biased but still valid.
> 
> https://www.tai.org.au/content/what-have-state-mining-subsidies-cost-you
> 
> Most of the money for mining oil and gas leaves Australia but agree standard of living would be halved without it just a pity the small returns are not used to start a future for next generations.



Would not oppose you on that one, billions in diesel excise rebate, free gift of ore to play with with just paying for the sold part, yes a proper mining tax would have been welcomed but i still believe we can not create an industry by throwing billions
I can not find a single example of this ever working
You need an eco system, a proper environment
Education, financing, taxation , laws and  regulations,  ethics,and that is on top of natural factors weather location, critical mass of experts..
And sorry but
We had a chance with software 20y ago when US companies were outsourcing here, since government it has been outsourced to India via the like of telstra and IBM, we imported so many low class programmer when we had no job for them that university department in it closed..
So no, it is not realistic to think australia can play any role in EV but as a consumer
Hopefully proven wrong in the future


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2019)

qldfrog said:


> If useful, right now in china, you can get a new electric 2 seats scooter vespa style,for below 350aud
> I expect parallel pricing for a byd small city car below 20k



Tesla is building a factory in China, how long before we have a Chinese car very similar to a Tesla for half the price?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/06/teslas-china-factory-set-to-begin-production-late-next-year.html


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2019)

IFocus said:


> Don't want to start a bun fight.




Neither do I.

Fuel excise refunds are not a subsidy, Excise is collected to fund roads, Any person or entity that consumes most of their fuel "off road" eg, Farmers, Miners, Fishermen etc etc can apply to have the excise tax they pay on their fuel rebated.

When BHP, FMG, RIO etc buy fuel to use in their Trucks, diggers etc that are running on private land or roads they built and maintain themselves, its only fair that they should have the excise refunded.


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Tesla is building a factory in China, how long before we have a Chinese car very similar to a Tesla for half the price?
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/06/teslas-china-factory-set-to-begin-production-late-next-year.html




Not long I would say hahaha


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Personally I think it's going to take longer than 4-5 years for the EV revolution to take off here barring serious obstructions to oil supply.
> 
> Apart from a few pioneers (VC), people like to stick with what they know unless they are forced to do otherwise or the alternatives are much more attractive.
> 
> I think there is a place for  transition vehicles like hybrids which give the advantages of both EV's for city use and petrol/diesel for country trips , and will give competition to prevent either the Elcos or the oil companies from hiking prices if they see an advantage.




As of yesterday, The Tesla Model 3 has become the highest selling car in Australia (on a monthly basis), and that is without a single Tesla Add ever being put on any media.

Tesla sells all they can make, without the need for Advertising, Product placements etc 

I wouldn't call myself a pioneer, I think (as with most of my investment choices) I can just see where things are heading ahead of the crowd, and just like my investment choices I face a bit of push back, but eventually the crowd will agree with me, hahaha.


----------



## Value Collector (26 September 2019)

Check out this video, I really urge anyone interested in the future of Oil prices or car sales etc to sit down with a beverage and soak in the facts being presented, because there are changes happening quicker than the market believes, and opportunities to make money are great, it will take a degree of thinking that goes against some of the status quo thinking though.

Let me know what you think about the thoughts presented, ( but only if you have actually watched the video)

At the 4.40 mark he mentions people maybe waiting 4 years to purchase as EV, I waited 12 years long before I even knew about Tesla, I told family I wouldn't buy a new car till I could Buy an EV, So what they are saying at the 4.40 mark is true,


----------



## Value Collector (26 September 2019)

On top of the video I posted above, Check out this video, It confirms what they are saying about electric buses.

Disney has to be one of the Largest operators of Buses in the USA, as I share holder I sure hope they are moving to electrify their fleet ASAP, last time I was at Walt Disney World they were all still diesel, But I hope this changes soon.


----------



## Value Collector (26 September 2019)

I just realised that anyone who hasn't actually visited Disney World might not realise how huge their Bus Transportation network is , So here is a video showing the extent of it.

Basically on Disney's Florida Property, they Have 27 Hotels (huge ones) Linked to 4 Disney Theme parks + 2 Disney Water parks + a Disney shopping and internment district and they also run constant buses from the airport to the Disney Property.

Check out this video that shows some of the scale of their bus network, especially around the 2.40 min mark, they have around 800,000 passenger movements per day on their bus network.

Imagine the benefits of moving this fleet to Electric, Maybe I should write Bob Iger a letter, haha.


----------



## qldfrog (26 September 2019)

Thanks VC for the video cf oil use and indeed the gap in purchase
Case in point, we have 3 cars here
A 2007 from memory ute used for work on the block  farm 
4wd, capacity, scratch proof and robustness, u
son got the old fiesta now 10y old plus 
lady got a nice cheap sporty 2016 convertible for fun drive
I do not expect to buy any new car until EV and if one die, it will be replaced by matching second hand only
Good to know curve
Now ,where do you invest to capture value from that curve?


----------



## sptrawler (26 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Personally I think it's going to take longer than 4-5 years for the EV revolution to take off here barring serious obstructions to oil supply.
> .




Remember quite a while ago, I was talking about hydrogen fueled scram jets, that will get planes from Sydney to London in 4 hours? It looks as though they are not that far away.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/tech...ets-off-the-ground/ar-AAHR06T?ocid=spartandhp


----------



## Value Collector (26 September 2019)

I just learned today that Tesla Model 3’s no longer need any special adapter to plug into the standard non Tesla fast chargers.

So you can charge at Tesla superchargers and all the other locations that are popping up and just plug right in.


----------



## Value Collector (26 September 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Now ,where do you invest to capture value from that curve?




I am working on some ideas.


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## qldfrog (27 September 2019)

W


Value Collector said:


> I am working on some ideas.



Worth pointing that what is true in the us/europe could be delayed here in Australia due to us being always a step behind in term of infrastructure
Australia will not influence world oil consumption but car sales,etc could see a delayed curve, or worse an increased effect
Aka: i am already delaying new purchase but will not buy an ev as early as i would if living in europe or the USA


----------



## basilio (28 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Check out this video, I really urge anyone interested in the future of Oil prices or car sales etc to sit down with a beverage and soak in the facts being presented, because there are changes happening quicker than the market believes, and opportunities to make money are great, it will take a degree of thinking that goes against some of the status quo thinking though.
> 
> Let me know what you think about the thoughts presented, ( but only if you have actually watched the video)
> 
> At the 4.40 mark he mentions people maybe waiting 4 years to purchase as EV, I waited 12 years long before I even knew about Tesla, I told family I wouldn't buy a new car till I could Buy an EV, So what they are saying at the 4.40 mark is true,





Great find VC.

That is an excellent, compelling analysis of what could happen in the ICE/EV car market  (if everything else stays the same). I'm also impressed with the presenters. Well worth keeping in mind for future reading.

Perhaps not surprisingly I found myself understanding and agreeing with the basic principles of "Yep Ev is the way to go.  Can't afford it yet. Will wait a few years and make my current ICE car last until then "


----------



## basilio (28 September 2019)

Interesting comment from the You Tube site of VC  story,

Also noted how many people echoed my thoughts about their next car being an EV and just waiting until the price was right. Pretty obvious I think.

I can see real problems for car manufacturers trying to sell ICE cars in 3-4 years time. Could be even uicker if battery technology improves as fast as expected and prices fall. Look for a Tesla car built in China in 2 years time.




 azera55555  6 months ago (edited)
I was incredibly doubtful about this prediction but this article says Norway went from 5% EV market share to 50% in just 6 years... I had no idea it happened in Norway that quickly. So idk hope the same thing will happen in the U.S., still see so many people buying brand new ICE cars here though https://insideevs.com/electric-car-lessons-norway/


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Neither do I.
> 
> Fuel excise refunds are not a subsidy, Excise is collected to fund roads, Any person or entity that consumes most of their fuel "off road" eg, Farmers, Miners, Fishermen etc etc can apply to have the excise tax they pay on their fuel rebated.
> 
> When BHP, FMG, RIO etc buy fuel to use in their Trucks, diggers etc that are running on private land or roads they built and maintain themselves, its only fair that they should have the excise refunded.




That's a nice little loophole that miners and farmers have slipped through isn't it ?

Pity that it's rubbish. 

All revenue is collected for a variety of reasons. 

This is what the Parliamentary website says about fuel excise.

_"In the period 1926 to 1959 and again in 1982, all or part of the revenue raised by petrol and diesel excises was hypothecated (earmarked) to fund expenditure on roads. For example, when first introduced in 1957, revenue from diesel excise was hypothecated to road funding. *Hypothecation arrangements have effectively been discontinued.* But the impression remains that the level of Commonwealth spending on roads is linked to the revenue from petrol and diesel excises. In fact, Commonwealth spending on roads is considerably less than excise revenue. Moreover, successive Commonwealth governments have seen petrol and diesel excises as a source of general revenue available for spending for general government purposes and not just for roads. Arguments for reinstituting hypothecation are questionable especially when viewed in an overall budgetary context."

[my bolds]
_
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parlia...s/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp0001/01RP06

So fuel excise rebates are effectively tax avoidance and should be discontinued.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (30 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> _*Hypothecation arrangements have effectively been discontinued.* _




Well spotted, SirRumpole. This still remains one of the great myths of government finance. Under the Constitution, the Commonwealth only has one account. It cannot and does not split up tax revenue into different buckets to be automatically (and only) spent for particular purposes. Funds are allocated in the annual budget for whatever purpose and at whatever level the government of the day decrees. Legislation can, and is, passed to establish rules for how and on what particular taxes operate and how funds are spent (or a tax paid is refunded).  Fuel Excise is just one example of this and the myth of automatic allocation to roads funding is a political convenience to continue a tax refund to a particular interest group. The "Medicare Levy" doesn't fund "Health" (the Government actually spends far more on health services than the levy provides in revenue). 

The other great myth in this area is that we somehow pay for the Age Pension through our working lives and collect it at retirement, as if there was some account somewhere where a proportion of the tax we pay has our name on it and is managed separately.  This WAS the case before 1971 but the High Court found it to be unconstitutional. The Age Pension is paid from consolidated revenue just like all welfare and tax transfers (including drought relief, Newstart and Franking Credit rebates), funded by the taxes (income, GST, CGT, company tax etc.) levied on us all in the year it is paid out.  A tax is a tax is a tax and spending (or tax forgone) is spending. The labels that government puts on taxes and levies are totally irrelevant and just there to keep certain people happy (or in the dark).


----------



## Value Collector (30 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> That's a nice little loophole that miners and farmers have slipped through isn't it ?
> 
> Pity that it's rubbish.
> 
> ...




3 things to think about

1, it’s not just miners and farmers but all businesses that can prove they use their fuel off road.

2, the fact that the government has over time started to dip into the tax and use it for things it wasn’t designed for means the government is cheating, not the companies.

3, if you are going to say the fuel tax has nothing to do with roads I am happy, because it means the government has no reason to increase taxes on electric cars to compensate for us not buying fuel.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2019)

Value Collector said:


> 3, if you are going to say the fuel tax has nothing to do with roads I am happy, because it means the government has no reason to increase taxes on electric cars to compensate for us not buying fuel.




LOL. The government, who ever is in , will say what they like and the public has to wear it.


----------



## sptrawler (30 September 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> The other great myth in this area is that we somehow pay for the Age Pension through our working lives and collect it at retirement, as if there was some account somewhere where a proportion of the tax we pay has our name on it and is managed separately.  This WAS the case before 1971 but the High Court found it to be unconstitutional. The Age Pension is paid from consolidated revenue just like all welfare and tax transfers (including drought relief, Newstart and Franking Credit rebates), funded by the taxes (income, GST, CGT, company tax etc.) levied on us all in the year it is paid out.  A tax is a tax is a tax and spending (or tax forgone) is spending. The labels that government puts on taxes and levies are totally irrelevant and just there to keep certain people happy (or in the dark).



With regard the Age Pension, here is the story behind it.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05...ical-time-bomb-70-years-in-the-making/5480154
From the article:
_As the historian Rob Watts points out in his book The Foundations of the National Welfare State, what looks like groundbreaking Chifley welfare reform was really just a smokescreen for unpopular wartime tax rises on lower income earners.

The Menzies government folded the National Welfare Fund money into general revenue a few years later. (It is good budget practice not to hypothecate specific revenues to specific programs). But the fund remained in name until the 1980s_ .

From memory, the last of the funds actually attributed to the scheme were removed by Fraser.
https://www.smh.com.au/money/super-...mised-a-pension-for-life-20161111-gsn07y.html

The Hawke/Keating Government removed the National Welfare Fund from the statutes in the 1980's. Then started the superannuation guarantee scheme.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Would not oppose you on that one, billions in diesel excise rebate, free gift of ore to play with with just paying for the sold part, yes a proper mining tax would have been welcomed but i still believe we can not create an industry by throwing billions
> I can not find a single example of this ever working




NASA ?


----------



## Value Collector (30 September 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> LOL. The government, who ever is in , will say what they like and the public has to wear it.




I am just pointing out a little hypocrisy.

eg. It's been mentioned here before that Electric Vehicles owners might be "free loading" by using roads while also avoiding the fuel Excise.

but, if that is true then it would be wrong to expect non road users to pay the fuel excise.

Fuel Excise is either related to roads (in which case miners etc should be exempt other wise we are freeloading off them), or its got nothing to do with roads (in which case the complaints about EV's freeloading are irrelevant).


----------



## qldfrog (1 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> NASA ?



Long answer in
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-science-thread.30963/page-30#post-1042137
Hard to know where to locate that answer as it is very broad
Most real problem do not have simple solutions..same as global warming: would be so simple to play the Greta..
EV are the future but let's not kid ourself this will in any way change human impact on climate


----------



## Jack Aubrey (1 October 2019)

One answer to the roads funding issue is to accept that roads (and rail and every other bit of public infrastructure) are genuine public goods - ie everyone benefits whether they use them or not (which is probably the case). If so, there is a good argument for full public funding from consolidated revenue.

If not, there are options like tolls and congestion charging and direct taxing of vehicles (rego).  Or perhaps we can do both like we do now?


----------



## SirRumpole (1 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> One answer to the roads funding issue is to accept that roads (and rail and every other bit of public infrastructure) are genuine public goods - ie everyone benefits whether they use them or not (which is probably the case). If so, there is a good argument for full public funding from consolidated revenue.
> 
> If not, there are options like tolls and congestion charging and direct taxing of vehicles (rego).  Or perhaps we can do both like we do now?




If EV's reach a critical mass I can see the government requiring that they be fitted with meters reporting how far they travel, and the owners getting a bill at the end of the month in lieu of fuel excise.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I am just pointing out a little hypocrisy.
> 
> eg. It's been mentioned here before that Electric Vehicles owners might be "free loading" by using roads while also avoiding the fuel Excise.
> 
> ...




Well whatever the way you argue, if revenue is depleted by EV's not paying fuel excise it has to be made up some other way, never stand between a government and a bucket of money.


----------



## Value Collector (1 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Well whatever the way you argue, if revenue is depleted by EV's not paying fuel excise it has to be made up some other way, never stand between a government and a bucket of money.




Maybe an excise on Tyres ??? or maybe we tax animal products like we do cigarettes, I would be happy with that hahaha


----------



## SirRumpole (1 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe an excise on Tyres ??? or maybe we tax animal products like we do cigarettes, I would be happy with that hahaha




Reducing company and personal tax avoidance would be a good start.


----------



## sptrawler (1 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Reducing company and personal tax avoidance would be a good start.



As would work avoidance and welfare dependence.
But getting back to electric cars, the Hyundai Kona seems like it has a good range, but the price and no ability to feed back into the grid is a stumbling block. IMO


----------



## BanstokHoliday (1 October 2019)

I think electric cars are the future of engineering. I am sure that all equipment will switch to electricity, as it is cheap. As a student, it is very convenient for me to travel by electric car.


----------



## bi-polar (2 October 2019)

Pedal cyclists need 2000 hours steering experience, yearly traffic rule exams with zero tolerance, citizen arrest and solitary prison in worst cases.


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## sptrawler (2 October 2019)

Toyota still leading the way with hybrids.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/motori...r/news-story/0ac81796b2d8efaf69c429f07209fdd6

Meanwhile Hyundai throws in the towel, against Toyota hybrids.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/hyund...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-1


----------



## qldfrog (3 October 2019)

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/charging-ev-battery-grid/
Interesting, pretty accurate computation


----------



## sptrawler (3 October 2019)

Interesting article frog.


----------



## sptrawler (3 October 2019)

Mini's hybrid offering isn't a bad compromise, 40Klm full electric, 500klm petrol. So run around the city/town on electric, then switch off the battery when heading out to the country, to improve fuel consumption.

https://www.drive.com.au/new-car-re...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-1


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## Smurf1976 (3 October 2019)

IFocus said:


> Don't want to start a bun fight but governments do subsidise mining fuel excise is rather large alone see link which will likely to be biased but still valid.




If failing to tax fuel used in mining amounts to a subsidy of mining then rationally any failure to tax electricity used for EV charging represents a subsidy of EV's.

I thought it was the case that most business inputs are untaxed? Businesses claim back GST right? Not much different to not taxing fuel used to run a mine.

Personally I'm confident enough of the future viability of EV's that I see no need to force their adoption by means of taxes or anything else. Same as we didn't tax typewriter ribbons in order to bring about mass adoption of computers. Etc.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I thought it was the case that most business inputs are untaxed? Businesses claim back GST right? Not much different to not taxing fuel used to run a mine.




I don't think that's quite the point.

A mine can claim the full cost of fuel as a tax deduction, PLUS they get back the excise that they pay on diesel fuel, the reason for that is (they say) that diesel fuel excise is allegedly going towards roads which the miners don't use, but as has been discussed that is nonsense as the diesel fuel excise just goes to general revenue from which everyone benefits.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think that's quite the point.
> 
> A mine can claim the full cost of fuel as a tax deduction, PLUS they get back the excise that they pay on diesel fuel, the reason for that is (they say) that diesel fuel excise is allegedly going towards roads which the miners don't use, but as has been discussed that is nonsense as the diesel fuel excise just goes to general revenue from which everyone benefits.




The issue surely is to ponder why diesel etc is taxed at a higher rate than pretty much any other product except alcohol and tobacco?

That's the real issue. No other normal business input has a special high tax applied to it and of direct relevance there's no comparable rate of tax on other energy sources including other fossil fuels. Given that diesel as a means of generating power is cleaner than coal, and integrates far better with renewables, it seems a tad odd.

The only rational explanation I've ever been able to see is that it's effectively an import tax given that coal and gas are locally produced but oil is substantially imported. Fair enough, I can see some logic in that, but then we've dropped tariffs on everything else so it's rather inconsistent to retain that approach only with petroleum fuels and then not all such fuels but only some.

Go forward to sometime in the 2030's and fuel excise ends up as, in practice, a tax on the poor. Once EV's become half the vehicle fleet, those paying that excise will mostly be the poorer half of society. A few exceptions but in general that will be the case. That'll give politicians an interesting dilemma........


----------



## bi-polar (3 October 2019)

Solar panel subsidies are motivators to purchase. Foreign oil is a drain , so to speak. And fuel tankers are 1 element in breaking up road tarmac. Govt subsidy for cars is not unknown in Aust. and it seems EV are cheaper to run. There must be some way ATO can get a slice somewhere , maybe from charitable taxpayers?


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## qldfrog (3 October 2019)

Not a dilemma, politicians do not give a rat ...the poors are the deplorables
And politicians know better
Tax diesel, tax tobacco, tax cask wine and beer
For the poors own good, but subsidies for the ballet not 1pc of the population can even attend..
Tax on ICE is a given soon, and as noone buy any new car, will be on rego or travelled km, and a photo shot with Greta on the news after the announcement...can not wait


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## bi-polar (3 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> , but subsidies for the ballet not 1pc of the population can even attend..



What rubbish , froggie. All road-workers will have 1hour 40minutes a week ballet training for State and Fed Ballet Man-of-the-Year with winner going to the overseas ballet company of his choice.


----------



## sptrawler (3 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think that's quite the point.
> 
> A mine can claim the full cost of fuel as a tax deduction, PLUS they get back the excise that they pay on diesel fuel, the reason for that is (they say) that diesel fuel excise is allegedly going towards roads which the miners don't use, but as has been discussed that is nonsense as the diesel fuel excise just goes to general revenue from which everyone benefits.



The interesting and chequered past history of fuel tax in Australia.

http://fueltaxinquiry.treasury.gov.au/content/backgnd/002.asp


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The interesting and chequered past history of fuel tax in Australia.



Basic problem I see with it is much the same as bundling network charges into electricity pricing. It simply creates an economic incentive, which may become an imperative, to maximise volume sales in order to balance the budget.

It would be silly to expect any government to be too enthusiastic about EV's so long as they're depending on revenue from petrol and don't have a practical means to generate comparable amounts of revenue from EV's. They'll support a few here and there for political reasons perhaps whilst at the same time hoping the idea doesn't become too popular.

I favour a proper resolution of the issue, such that there's no impact on the budget from changing the type of energy used in transport, to remove that situation. That's not me trying to slow down the adoption of EV's - to the contrary it's me saying we need to remove the incentive for governments to go slow.

Same with most of this stuff. No doubt we could make a lot more progress on energy policy in general if the maintenance of dispatchable generating capacity and the network itself weren't tied to a volume sales model which requires high, preferably increasing, consumption levels.

So I'm saying "get rid of things which give an incentive to stall progress". If that causes some pain now, well we're better off sorting it out and embracing the future than trying to resist it because we can't work out how to move money around, a task that ought not be overly difficult.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> The issue surely is to ponder why diesel etc is taxed at a higher rate than pretty much any other product except alcohol and tobacco?
> 
> That's the real issue. No other normal business input has a special high tax applied to it and of direct relevance there's no comparable rate of tax on other energy sources including other fossil fuels. Given that diesel as a means of generating power is cleaner than coal, and integrates far better with renewables, it seems a tad odd.
> 
> ...




The excise rate on diesel is he same as ULP , 41c per litre.

The rationale started off as paying for roads, but these days it's just another tax going into general revenue.


----------



## bi-polar (3 October 2019)

Shouldn't be too hard to find excise amount per year that a driver pays. Driver expenses for Tax are well-known.  Add amount to EV rego. Enter card number and click.


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## sptrawler (3 October 2019)

The Government of the day, will just introduce a new tax, increase an existing tax, or a combination of both to compensate for the loss fuel excise
The bigger problem IMO, is the collateral damage in the economy, due to the loss of ice engine and the associated work/parts/ consumables related to their upkeep. They are very labour intensive, high maintenance and compared to electrical motors extremely complicated.
This ensures there are a lot of people employed maintaining and supplying parts for them, they pay a lot of income tax and the gst on the parts and consumables wont be insignificant.
Add to this the fact that electric vehicles themselves are in their infancy, so therefore there are no guidelines as to universal standard voltages, standard plug etc.
Tesla has a different plug and charging system than Toyota and Hyundai, I had a look at the electrical car charging map for W.A, what a pigs ear it is.
Apart from the few RAC public charging stations, there are a multitude of sites in Country W.A, but when you check what facilities they actually have it can be anything from a 250v 10a three pin outlet at a caravan park, to a 65A 4 pin welding outlet in a fabrication shop.
So in reality how many different adaptors, chargers and paraphernalia would you have to carry with you?
The first thing that needs to happen IMO, is the auto industry needs to introduce universal standards for electric vehicles, then a network can be designed to facilitate the roll out.
This isn't going to be a quick and easy transition IMO
There will be a lot of money to be made in the future, having a a BIG battery/genset on a flat bed truck, ready to give people a $50 fast charge to get them mobile again.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> There will be a lot of money to be made in the future, having a a BIG battery on a flat bed truck, ready to give people a $50 fast charge to get them mobile again.





Or people carrying around petrol gen sets to charge them up when they get stuck.


----------



## sptrawler (3 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Or people carrying around petrol gen sets to charge them up when they get stuck.



That would keep the dual cab utes popular.
Check out the size of a 5KVA generator on ebay, then you would have to sit there for 4 hours to get a gerry cans worth of charge.
It will probably be the new excuse for a sickie in the future, "sorry can't make it, my cars flat".


----------



## bi-polar (3 October 2019)

Outboard motor tinnies have a small spare to get home. A lawn mower engine with belt drive is the way to go.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (3 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The Government of the day, will just introduce a new tax, increase an existing tax, or a combination of both to compensate for the loss fuel excise
> The bigger problem IMO, is the collateral damage in the economy, due to the loss of ice engine and the associated work/parts/ consumables related to their upkeep. They are very labour intensive, high maintenance and compared to electrical motors extremely complicated.




I can't think of many industries where this isn't the case -  and even the newer industries that promise to take up the employment slack are subject to imminent massive disruption from robotics and AI.  Mines can already be almost fully automated (all those "Adani jobs" must be in healthcare or education where it is more difficult - or at least less acceptable - to replace people with machines).  Farms, factories, warehouses, many shops and even food outlets will be almost free of people. Add to that the fact that electric vehicles and most household equipment will not be "fixed" ever, they'll just have the faulty component replaced, and the whole "Future of Work" thing looks pretty interesting.  I think this is why many billionaire capitalists are starting to openly discuss the idea of a Universal Basic Income.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> I think this is why many billionaire capitalists are starting to openly discuss the idea of a Universal Basic Income.





Maybe it would achieve the same thing by cutting the GST in half. This would require less mechanisms than a UBI and therefore would be more efficient.


----------



## bi-polar (3 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> GST in half.



That's 5% of income , $1hour basic.
$6 hr Newstart single gets 30 cents.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (3 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe it would achieve the same thing by cutting the GST in half. This would require less mechanisms than a UBI and therefore would be more efficient.




If you have no money coming in, you won't be spending much.

Interestingly, the first UBI proposal (framed as a "negative income tax") was proposed by the Nixon Administration in the US.


----------



## qldfrog (3 October 2019)

bi-polar said:


> Shouldn't be too hard to find excise amount per year that a driver pays. Driver expenses for Tax are well-known.  Add amount to EV rego. Enter card number and click.



so that is in effect an incentive on high usage, excise at least is based on usage, and the more cars on the road be they ICE or EV is not really an aim is it?


----------



## bi-polar (3 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> incentive on high usage,



Absolutely , the more mileage the garage mechanic reports from the speedometer kms for rego,  the more the driver pays .  He may even offer double tax to Scomo . triple , heck blow the expense.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> The excise rate on diesel is he same as ULP , 41c per litre.




It is but it's a lot higher than other means of firing furnaces, generating power and so on - diesel's used for more than just running engines and to the extent it's competing against anything else it's mainly not competing against petrol apart from light vehicles.

I'm not against the concept of taxing mining by the way. It's just the concept of taxing one fossil fuel but not another that I take issue with unless it's part of a clear policy objective. There's a big enough mess with energy in this country without adding differential rates of taxation to it and in the medium term we're pretty much locked into importing more fuel not less.

What we really need is an overall approach to the entire energy question rather than this practice of a patch here and a patch somewhere else that we have at the moment. Sort that out then it becomes pretty clear what you should or shouldn't be taxing in order to achieve that objective.

If nothing changes and EV's continue down the track of being politicised then my concern is that they end up being caught in the same mess as everything else relating to energy where ideology and false beliefs take precedence over what is easily shown to be true. Then someone tries wedge politics with it all and it ends up an even bigger mess. I can see it now - wealthy EV owners not paying tax but they're using the roads..........

I'd rather neutralise government and politics to put a stop to that so far as possible.


----------



## bi-polar (3 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I
> 
> I'd rather neutralise government  so far as possible.



The castration process has many steps and should only be done by a person with training and experience with pigs. Male pigs are castrated using a disinfected surgical knife. A trained worker or veterinarian holds the pig and makes an incision above each testicle. The testicle is pushed through the scrotal sac.


----------



## Value Collector (3 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> The issue surely is to ponder why diesel etc is taxed at a higher rate than pretty much any other product except alcohol and tobacco?
> 
> That's the real issue. No other normal business input has a special high tax applied to it and of direct relevance there's no comparable rate of tax on other energy sources including other fossil fuels. Given that diesel as a means of generating power is cleaner than coal, and integrates far better with renewables, it seems a tad odd.
> 
> ...




For some unknown reason people like to single out miners avoiding the excise, But it is all business that can claim it back if the aren't using it on the roads.

So in your example the diesel power generator can also claim back the excise.

The fact that it goes to general revenue is irrelevant, it was brought in to help fund the growing cost of roads, and people that aren't using it on the roads shouldn't have to pay the tax.

its just like cigarettes tax was brought in to help fund the health care costs of smoking related diseases, if there was a company using tobacco for some non smoking related industrial use, then I would be fine with them not being taxed on their tobacco.


----------



## Value Collector (3 October 2019)

bi-polar said:


> The castration process has many steps and should only be done by a person with training and experience with pigs. Male pigs are castrated using a disinfected surgical knife. A trained worker or veterinarian holds the pig and makes an incision above each testicle. The testicle is pushed through the scrotal sac.




you forgot to mention that after the sack has been cut open the testicles are ripped off by hand one by one, with no pain relief, and then the tail in cut off with clippers and the teeth are cut off also.

But yeah, the public like to think (factory) farm animals are happy.

watch from the 3.40 mark


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> For some unknown reason people like to single out miners avoiding the excise, But it is all business that can claim it back if the aren't using it on the roads.
> 
> So in your example the diesel power generator can also claim back the excise.




At present yes and so long as that continues, or alternatively if all fuels were to be equally taxed, then all good.

There was a time when this wasn't the case, 1990's with a tax on fuel oil but not on alternatives, and some weird and not at all wonderful ideas came up since it was high enough to be a problem. Coal was being put into shipping containers, and the containers then physically tipped over, as a workaround in one instance I'm aware of....... 

Back to the EV's, the only real unanswered technical question at the moment relates to how average users will charge them in practice. Theory and ideas are nice but in practice?

By that I mean the ratio of using public fast chargers versus charging at home and at what time?

There's some concern within the power industry which could basically be summarised as saying that middle of the day would be best, middle of the night would be nice too, but we can live with anything so long as it doesn't involve too many cars being charged between 5pm and 9pm.

The underlying concern there isn't about technology but about actual consumer behaviour. Not what could be done but what actually happens? To the extent there's uncertainty that's where it is.

Anyway, at home I've provisioned for future easy installation of an EV charger with some recent work. Only problem is thus far I ain't got no EV to be charging.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> The fact that it goes to general revenue is irrelevant, it was brought in to help fund the growing cost of roads, and people that aren't using it on the roads shouldn't have to pay the tax.




The fact that it (diesel excise) was bought in to fund roads is irrelevant, it's not being used for that purpose now, it's all general revenue, and anyway business can still claim the full cost of the fuel as a straight deduction, getting the rebate back as well is double dipping.


----------



## Value Collector (4 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> The fact that it (diesel excise) was bought in to fund roads is irrelevant, it's not being used for that purpose now, it's all general revenue, and anyway business can still claim the full cost of the fuel as a straight deduction, getting the rebate back as well is double dipping.




You can say every tax and duty goes to general revenue.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> You can say every tax and duty goes to general revenue.




Yes, that's the way it works.

As pointed out before, the Federal government only has one bank account into which all revenue goes. So there is no such thing as revenue that is allocated for a specific purpose.



			
				https://treasury.gov.au/publication/treasury-annual-report-2010-2011/treasury-annual-report-2010-11/part-5-appendices/glossary said:
			
		

> Consolidated Revenue Fund (CRF)
> 
> The principal operating fund from which money is drawn to pay for the activities of the Government. Section 81 of the Australian Constitution provides that all revenue raised or monies received by the Executive Government forms one consolidated revenue fund from which appropriations are made for the purposes of the Australian Government.




Anyway, you don't have to worry about it , for a while anyway, so relax and enjoy your EV.


----------



## Value Collector (4 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> and anyway business can still claim the full cost of the fuel as a straight deduction, getting the rebate back as well is double dipping.




There is a massive difference between getting money you have paid out refunded to you, and being able to claim money you have paid out as a tax deduction.

If You pay me $100, and later I refund you that $100 you get that full $100 back.

However, if you give me $100 and later claim that $100 as a tax deduction, you don’t ever get the $100 back, you just don’t have to pay tax on that $100.


----------



## bi-polar (4 October 2019)

Do MPs get rebate for castration ?


----------



## rederob (4 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Back to the EV's, the only real unanswered technical question at the moment relates to how average users will charge them in practice. Theory and ideas are nice but in practice?



The only reason you go to a petrol station is because you do not have petrol on tap at home.
If you are worker, it's not that convenient filling up on the way to work, and it delays getting home on the way back.  Go home and plug in your EV.
Given the average kilometres travelled by the average car owner, charging stations will only be used as exceptions.
Commercial travellers/tradies, etc will be a different kettle of fish.  However, even in the days that I racked up an average of 1000km/week, I would still have been able to avoid charging stations as it would have been unusual to do more than 300km in any one day.  That said, by the time commercial travellers are using EVs, range anxiety will probably be a thing of the past - battery technology and vehicle efficiencies continue to improve.
At a practical level, the incremental addition of EVs only becomes problematic if demand from recharging reaches a level where overnight charging capacity would be exceeded.  However, as the increase in demand will be incremental, electricity generators/distributors will have time to develop mechanisms/strategies (eg. appropriate tariffs/charging times) to cope.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 October 2019)

rederob said:


> The only reason you go to a petrol station is because you do not have petrol on tap at home.
> If you are worker, it's not that convenient filling up on the way to work, and it delays getting home on the way back.  Go home and plug in your EV.
> Given the average kilometres travelled by the average car owner, charging stations will only be used as exceptions.




As a concept certainly.

Where the devil may arise is in the detail.

Eg I park my car in a garage and will have no problem charging an EV.

My neighbour on one side will need to run a two leads from the house outside to charge their cars and one of those will necessarily cross the path of the other car. They could install a power point on a pole or something like that as an alternative but that won't be cheap given it means crossing a concrete driveway.

Now, will the neighbour actually do this? Or will they see it as more convenient to simply use a "service station" and charge the car there?

And what about those who need to run the lead across a footpath because the car's parked on the street? There are whole suburbs where that's literally every house.

Etc.

It's not my intent to be negative toward EV's, I'm just pointing out the presently unanswered questions surrounding it all. That sort of thing is the big unknown at this stage. Nobody seems too sure if this sort of thing is going to affect 1% of users or if it's 50%.



> However, as the increase in demand will be incremental, electricity generators/distributors will have time to develop mechanisms/strategies (eg. appropriate tariffs/charging times) to cope.




Technically yes - just keep the politicians and other obstacle placers well away from it......


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2019)

bi-polar said:


> That's 5% of income , $1hour basic.
> $6 hr Newstart single gets 30 cents.



In Portugal, Spain and most South American countries, the single who doesn't work gets FA, and some of these Countries still produce cars.


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2019)

bi-polar said:


> Do MPs get rebate for castration ?



Only if they can produce evidence of the castration. then claim medicare rebate.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 October 2019)

I wonder if parking stations will jump on the bandwagon by installing charging outlets . Shoppers usually spend more than the 40 minutes charging time in the shops and all day car parks would have no problems.


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2019)

rederob said:


> The only reason you go to a petrol station is because you do not have petrol on tap at home.
> If you are worker, it's not that convenient filling up on the way to work, and it delays getting home on the way back.  Go home and plug in your EV.
> Given the average kilometres travelled by the average car owner, charging stations will only be used as exceptions.
> Commercial travellers/tradies, etc will be a different kettle of fish.  However, even in the days that I racked up an average of 1000km/week, I would still have been able to avoid charging stations as it would have been unusual to do more than 300km in any one day.  That said, by the time commercial travellers are using EVs, range anxiety will probably be a thing of the past - battery technology and vehicle efficiencies continue to improve.
> At a practical level, the incremental addition of EVs only becomes problematic if demand from recharging reaches a level where overnight charging capacity would be exceeded.  However, as the increase in demand will be incremental, electricity generators/distributors will have time to develop mechanisms/strategies (eg. appropriate tariffs/charging times) to cope.



If people use their car to go to work, they will be charging overnight, if they charge at peak times(16.00-21.00) they add to the current problem.
If they can't discharge their batteries into the grid at peak times(16.00-21.00), they don't alleviate the current problem.
So the current peak demand problem still exists.


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder if parking stations will jump on the bandwagon by installing charging outlets . Shoppers usually spend more than the 40 minutes charging time in the shops and all day car parks would have no problems.



They will do for sure, but the Government wont get any excise from that, unless the Government make the charging stations licensed.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder if parking stations will jump on the bandwagon by installing charging outlets . Shoppers usually spend more than the 40 minutes charging time in the shops and all day car parks would have no problems.



I've seen them in the UK and I've spotted some in NSW so there are certainly some who are thinking that way.


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've seen them in the UK and I've spotted some in NSW so there are certainly some who are thinking that way.



The problem is, as far as I know, there is no charging voltage or pin configuration standard, which just brings back the problem of the early days of mobile phones and the multiple charger problems.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> If people use their car to go to work, they will be charging overnight, if they charge at peak times(16.00-21.00) they add to the current problem.
> If they can't discharge their batteries into the grid at peak times(16.00-21.00), they don't alleviate the current problem.
> So the current peak demand problem still exists.




That's the concern and noting the political difficulty in addressing any such issues which introduces an administrative lead time that's usually a fair bit longer than the time to design, plan and implement anything physically. 

There's some eagerness to "jump early" as a result.


----------



## sptrawler (4 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's the concern and noting the political difficulty in addressing any such issues which introduces an administrative lead time that's usually a fair bit longer than the time to design, plan and implement anything physically.
> 
> There's some eagerness to "jump early" as a result.



I think it needs to be addressed first, actually i'm going around the corner to Andrew Hastie's office and mentioning it, next time I'm sober.


----------



## rederob (4 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> As a concept certainly.
> 
> Where the devil may arise is in the detail.
> 
> ...



I never doubted some impracticalities might arise, but let's not assume there cannot be a sensible response to them.  
Where, for example there is only on street parking available to home owners, owners of EVs *TODAY *would be well aware that it was going to be an issue and have contingency plans.  
My suspicion is that most suburban Australians living in detached/semi detached homes will be unaffected.  I know that it would, today, be an issue for a greater number of unit dwellers.
But as EV ownership right now is microscopic, pre-emptory problems can become the subject of prospective solutions, with very long lead times.
My suspicion is that if you can today afford an EV, you are not likely to need to worry about extension cords or double adapters .


----------



## Value Collector (4 October 2019)

rederob said:


> I never doubted some impracticalities might arise, but let's not assume there cannot be a sensible response to them.
> Where, for example there is only on street parking available to home owners, owners of EVs *TODAY *would be well aware that it was going to be an issue and have contingency plans.
> My suspicion is that most suburban Australians living in detached/semi detached homes will be unaffected.  I know that it would, today, be an issue for a greater number of unit dwellers.
> But as EV ownership right now is microscopic, pre-emptory problems can become the subject of prospective solutions, with very long lead times.
> My suspicion is that if you can today afford an EV, you are not likely to need to worry about extension cords or double adapters .




You are right EV's won't suit everyone at the moment, they will only suit 99% of people as of today.

As for people that don't have a place to charge at home, these people also aren't likely to have a petrel station at home either, so are probably already visiting a fuel station every 7-9 days, all they would have to do is visit a public charger of power point instead of a petrel station once a week.

and charging stations are becoming more common than you think.


----------



## Value Collector (4 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> If people use their car to go to work, they will be charging overnight, if they charge at peak times(16.00-21.00) they add to the current problem.
> If they can't discharge their batteries into the grid at peak times(16.00-21.00), they don't alleviate the current problem.
> So the current peak demand problem still exists.




Thats an easy fix, just offer good ev charging deals during off-peak times.

just because a person plugs in when they get home doesn't mean the car has to start charging straight away, my car is plugged in right now, but is scheduled to start charging at 6.30 in the morning, I can set it to car any time I like, if my power company offered an off peak deal that beat my solar, I would charge it at 1am.


----------



## Value Collector (4 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder if parking stations will jump on the bandwagon by installing charging outlets . Shoppers usually spend more than the 40 minutes charging time in the shops and all day car parks would have no problems.



A shopping centre near me installed a fast charger that can take a Tesla model 3 to 60% charge in 11 mins, its charge rate is 1200kms per hour.


----------



## Value Collector (4 October 2019)

This is a screen shot of the Tesla app showing the status of my car, you can see I have 300km of range left in the battery, so no rush to charge so I have scheduled it to automatically begin charging at 6.30 each morning.

If It ever got really low and I needed it first thing in the morning, I would just set it to start charging at midnight, but daily top ups I prefer to do from the solar panels.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> As for people that don't have a place to charge at home, these people also aren't likely to have a petrel station at home either, so are probably already visiting a fuel station every 7-9 days, all they would have to do is visit a public charger of power point instead of a petrel station once a week.




Agreed - what the power industry is trying to work out is exactly how that plays out in practice.

That is, what's the actual change in load due to EV's? Total volume is pretty straightforward but the "when" aspect is the big one and that's not so clear.

A substantial portion will charge at home and coaxing them to do so outside the peaks is straightforward technically but considerably more difficult politically. It's the sort of thing that needs to be nudged in cautiously given the track record of such ideas blowing up politically.

How many will charge at public charging stations and when is the other big question. Sure, there are some in use now but it's a fair bet that early adopters of EV's may well use them differently to how the majority will use them so it may not be simply a case of scaling it up.

My own view on it all could be summed up as saying that I'm not overly interested in charging 10 EV's, that's easy, but I'm much more keen on the idea of charging 10 million of them and that's entirely doable but there's more to it than just plugging them in and expecting it to all work.

I'm probably 15 years too early yes but then I'm coming from the perspective of having seen how difficult it can be to convince those who need to be convinced before anything can be done with this sort of stuff. The technical side is the easy bit, dealing with politics, regulators and the media is where the pain arises.

Don't get me wrong though - it's happening, just not as quickly as I'd like it to.


----------



## Value Collector (5 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed - what the power industry is trying to work out is exactly how that plays out in practice.
> 
> That is, what's the actual change in load due to EV's? Total volume is pretty straightforward but the "when" aspect is the big one and that's not so clear.
> 
> ...




I am yet to visit a public charger, most ev owners rarely use them, ofcourse we need for the rare occasion we will do road trips, for me that’s a few times a year.

But I think at least 99% of charging will be done at home, and that should be pretty easy to convince people to charge offpeak.


----------



## Macquack (5 October 2019)

VC, what is the maximum current drawn when you are charging your model 3 at home?


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## Value Collector (5 October 2019)

Macquack said:


> VC, what is the maximum current drawn when you are charging your model 3 at home?




It all depends on your set up, and whether you want to use a regular power point or your Tesla wall charger installed on a dedicated 15amp circuit or a 3 phase circuit.

If you just plug your portable charger into a standard wall outlet you will charge at 8A / 2kwh, this is the slowest option, but still totally fine for most people’s weekly driving.

But if you install the wall charger onto a dedicated circuit you can charge at up to 6kwh I believe, I haven’t had it installed yet.

I am not sure what the wall charger can draw if it’s hooked up to 3 phase.
————
At the moment I am just using a standard power point, because we may be moving next year so I don’t want to waste money having the electrician install the wall charger, so I am just using the slower portable charger.

It’s charge rate is 12km/hour, so if you are the type of person that only burns a tank of fuel every 7 days of so, charging on the slow charger every night more than covers your needs.

If you burn 2 tanks of fuel a week, you will need to install the wall charger, or visit a public charger once or twice a month to top up if you slow charger isn’t keeping up.


----------



## Value Collector (5 October 2019)

I haven’t even taken the wall charger out of the box yet,

But the booklet says it can pull 32A on 3 phase power, that’s a lot more than almost anyone would need.

So I reckon just hooking up the wall charger to a dedicated 20A circuit would be ideal, but as I said the portable 8A that plugs into a standard power point is fine for most people if you can’t install the wall charger for some reason.


----------



## qldfrog (7 October 2019)

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/0...epreciation-getting-slammed-by-tesla-model-3/
Indeed why buy a luxury bmw now? especially on lease...
Not my problem as i never bought aluxury car (fast paced depreciating asset)


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/0...epreciation-getting-slammed-by-tesla-model-3/
> Indeed why buy a luxury bmw now? especially on lease...
> Not my problem as i never bought aluxury car (fast paced depreciating asset)



What makes me laugh, is the media say the downturn in car sales, is due to the economy.
My guess is, it is due to people thinking electric cars are just around the corner and there is little point in wasting money buying a new ice car.
So if people aren't buying new cars, don't need a new T.V or phone what consumables are they going to buy?
Probably the reason J.B's is doing o.k they sell the whole range of electronic gizmo's anyone wants.
I would be extremely carefull buying shares in this space.


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2019)

Here is a car for those with a yearning to do the right thing, but didn't think they could afford it, just over $20k and has the looks a "greenie" would die for. Make a statement "look at me, I'm saving the planet". 

https://electrameccanica.com/solo/


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## sptrawler (8 October 2019)

For those a bit more fashion conscious, another model from the same company.

https://electrameccanica.com/eroadster/


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## qldfrog (8 October 2019)

like the Tofino at 50k USD, the eroadster is far to much in the luxury side but cute


sptrawler said:


> For those a bit more fashion conscious, another model from the same company.
> 
> https://electrameccanica.com/eroadster/


----------



## IFocus (8 October 2019)

Seen this yesterday at Singleton shopping centre WA


----------



## noirua (8 October 2019)

If you have owned a Tesla for awhile, has its battery been able to hold as much charge now as when you first bought the car?
No. The loss of range is a constant effect of use and charging. My car was 265 miles range new, 260 when I bought it at 22,000 mile, and much lower now. 
I use the supercharger almost daily when I am out, resulting in about 5 times the wear from fast charging for two years. 
To avoid problems, since I last did a reset to check my battery, Tesla has initiated a software upgrade that resulted in a considerable reduction. 
I am guessing on my reset this fall, I will be below 240 when I fill it. 
I am not upset with this, as I consider it reasonable for my use, and am happy to have them oversee my battery health. 
I am putting $50 a week away from my ‘car’ income to purchase a new battery and expect the cost to drop as fast as the savings rise. 
When the car was made 5 years ago, the battery was probably well over $20,000 in cost, I am hoping to buy newer tech in a battery for half that if not less. 
New batteries now have almost 400 miles of range and charge twice as fast.

From a Tesla owner.


----------



## moXJO (9 October 2019)

noirua said:


> If you have owned a Tesla for awhile, has its battery been able to hold as much charge now as when you first bought the car?
> No. The loss of range is a constant effect of use and charging. My car was 265 miles range new, 260 when I bought it at 22,000 mile, and much lower now.
> I use the supercharger almost daily when I am out, resulting in about 5 times the wear from fast charging for two years.
> To avoid problems, since I last did a reset to check my battery, Tesla has initiated a software upgrade that resulted in a considerable reduction.
> ...



do teslas hold their value over 5 years?


----------



## sptrawler (9 October 2019)

moXJO said:


> do teslas hold their value over 5 years?



Apparently they do, they are probably the only electric vehicle that holds its value better than a ice vehicle.
This is due to them being a bit of a cult thing, Elon Musk has got them into a niche a bit like iphones.
https://electrek.co/2018/12/12/tesla-used-values-retention-competition-study/


----------



## sptrawler (9 October 2019)

The Chinese are starting to crank up the heat, on the electric car space,  300kW/660Nm dual-motor electric system with all-wheel drive. Good for a sub-5.0-second dash to 100km/h and a range of 'around 500km' from its 78kWh battery pack.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/poles...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-2


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## Knobby22 (9 October 2019)

We will end up buying their cars.


----------



## Value Collector (11 October 2019)

Tesla’s new version 3 charger,


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2019)

More come in to the EV market, but one goes out.

Dyson has scrapped it's electric car plans.

Hard to see how they could compete with Tesla and China.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-11/dysons-electric-car-wont-go-to-market/11592954


----------



## sptrawler (11 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> More come in to the EV market, but one goes out.
> 
> Dyson has scrapped it's electric car plans.
> 
> ...



Case of sticking to core competency, which is vacuum cleaners.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Case of sticking to core competency, which is vacuum cleaners.




Maybe the EV venture sucked the life out of the company ?


----------



## bi-polar (11 October 2019)

In the United States, drive-up banks often use pneumatic tubes to transport cash and documents between cars and tellers. Some U.S. hospitals have a computer-controlled pneumatic tube system to deliver drugs, documents and specimens to and from laboratories and nurses' stations.  NASA's original Mission Control Center had pneumatic tubes connecting controller consoles with staff support rooms.



Note pneumatic tube canisters in console to the right.

Until  2011, a McDonald's in Edina, Minnesota claimed to be the "World's Only Pneumatic Air Drive-Thru," sending food from their strip-mall location to a drive-through in the middle of a parking lot.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2019)

So we can stay on topic, I've created a thread where bi polar can post whatever he likes, and leave the other threads for relevant content.

Go to it mate, have a ball.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/bi-polars-miscellaneous-ramblings.34962/


----------



## Joules MM1 (11 October 2019)

Dyson

readable summaries on the withdrawal

https://twitter.com/i/moments/1182354080594685952


----------



## Knobby22 (11 October 2019)

The trouble Dyson has is that an electric car in electrical engineering terms is not overly complex. 
I think in 15 years there will be double the number of car companies and cars will become more commoditized, the money will be in the safety system technology.

It will be Google vs who knows again.


----------



## bi-polar (11 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe the EV venture sucked the life out of the company ?



You comment on a vacuum cleaner business , I comment on vacuum tube transport , which needs electrical power.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> The trouble Dyson has is that an electric car in electrical engineering terms is not overly complex.




A problem I can see for all car companies is that much of the present automotive "economy" revolves around the engine and not the rest of the car.

If we base it on an average travel speed of 30 km/h then the average car is being serviced every 300 - 500 hours of operation. That's a truly mind blowing level of maintenance compared to most things. 

Remove the combustion engine and that gets rid of most of that maintenance. In doing so it also kills the business model of much of the industry. Invest accordingly.


----------



## Value Collector (11 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> The trouble Dyson has is that an electric car in electrical engineering terms is not overly complex.
> I think in 15 years there will be double the number of car companies and cars will become more commoditized, the money will be in the safety system technology.
> 
> It will be Google vs who knows again.




I agree, I have no doubt Dyson could build a very well engineered EV, The big but though is the other software features people are expecting of the EV of the Future, eg self driving etc.

-------------

On a similar note, I drove the Tesla in Bumper to Bumper traffic for the first time the other day, and Being able to put the car in Autopilot, and have it deal with the stop start stop start nature of the traffic for me while I relaxed, and listened to music took pretty much all to the frustration of the traffic away, I love it.


----------



## Value Collector (11 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> If we base it on an average travel speed of 30 km/h then the average car is being serviced every 300 - 500 hours of operation. That's a truly mind blowing level of maintenance compared to most things.
> .




This also affects the affordability of regular cars too, and so Ev's can end up being cheaper over time.

Even though the price Tag of EV's is higher than Petrol cars, Most people have car loans and so a car is a monthly expense rather than a lump sum.

So when you factor in the Monthly loan payment on an EV + electricity vs the Monthly cost of a Petrol car loan + petrol + servicing. The Ev can end up costing less.


----------



## Value Collector (11 October 2019)

Tesla's also come standard with "Sentry Mode".

When your car is in Sentry Mode and it detects movement within 8 inches of your car, It begins recording using its front and rear facing cameras.

watch this video from the 30 second mark to learn more.


----------



## qldfrog (17 October 2019)

https://theconversation.com/climate...otprint-of-electric-versus-fossil-cars-124762
Big difference between Australia and NZ
It would be interesting to compare as well a small European diesel car vs EV
These cars can easily have doubled life expectancy so slashing the manufacturing component, and are using a misery in diesel
They are now seen as evil as manufacturing countries France Germany there want more taxes and ideally new car purchases to boost their sick economies and coffers


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2019)

Bit of a worry when a solar car can just "burst into flames".

No word yet on what actually caught fire.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-17/solar-challenge-leading-vehicle-bursts-into-flames/11611112


----------



## Value Collector (18 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Bit of a worry when a solar car can just "burst into flames".
> 
> No word yet on what actually caught fire.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-17/solar-challenge-leading-vehicle-bursts-into-flames/11611112




Happens to petrol races car regularly.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Happens to petrol races car regularly.




Solar cars don't use petrol, so what caught fire and why ?


----------



## IFocus (18 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Solar cars don't use petrol, so what caught fire and why ?




Do they use batteries they can over heat and flare or perhaps a circuit / component failure due to over heating / poor design to disperse heat.


----------



## Value Collector (18 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Solar cars don't use petrol, so what caught fire and why ?




Battery, cables, ? Probably lots of things


----------



## qldfrog (22 October 2019)

https://reneweconomy.com.au/is-australia-about-to-get-its-first-chinese-electric-vehicle-95780/
Chinese EV are coming here


----------



## Knobby22 (22 October 2019)

They will destroy the western car industry.
Probably good we got out of manufacture in Australia.

The MG brand is already in Australia. Electric version as you mentioned qldfrog not far away.
https://www.caradvice.com.au/747869/mg-ezs-electric-car-coming-to-australia-in-2020/


----------



## sptrawler (22 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> They will destroy the western car industry.
> Probably good we got out of manufacture in Australia.
> 
> The MG brand is already in Australia. Electric version as you mentioned qldfrog not far away.
> https://www.caradvice.com.au/747869/mg-ezs-electric-car-coming-to-australia-in-2020/



Hopefully Trump can get China to float their currency, otherwise they will take over all manufacturing.


----------



## qldfrog (22 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Hopefully Trump can get China to float their currency, otherwise they will take over all manufacturing.



Byi taxi fleet in Shenzhen is enormous.their blue EV everywhere and by now they have ironed out all issue.never saw one on the side of the road


----------



## sptrawler (22 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Byi taxi fleet in Shenzhen is enormous.their blue EV everywhere and by now they have ironed out all issue.never saw one on the side of the road



We are doing a 10 day trip from Beijing to Shanghai, next October, really looking forward to seeing the changes, I couldn't believe the amount of electric scooters in Beijing last trip.


----------



## sptrawler (22 October 2019)

An interesting article, showing how competitive the electric car industry is going to be.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...on-tesla-is-so-difficult-20191022-p532vl.html


----------



## Knobby22 (22 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> An interesting article, showing how competitive the electric car industry is going to be.
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...on-tesla-is-so-difficult-20191022-p532vl.html




In the lighting industry, when LED technology got better, there were a lot of lighting start-ups.
The existing legacy companies, just like in that article, were slow to produce new product and also there product was a bit old compared to the start-ups. Consequently, in most cases, they have got smaller or gone broke. As they say in the article, the big companies still haven't got a practical product (except for Nissan).

You can see the competition forming. South Korea have plenty of local electric cars.
https://insideevs.com/news/366034/plugin-ev-car-sales-south-korea-surge-2019/
Also in the article hydrogen fuel cell cars are bigger there. Hyundai NEXO. 1,898 sold so far this year.
In Australia, maybe country drivers will go Hydrogen!


----------



## sptrawler (22 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> They will destroy the western car industry.
> Probably good we got out of manufacture in Australia.
> 
> The MG brand is already in Australia. Electric version as you mentioned qldfrog not far away.
> https://www.caradvice.com.au/747869/mg-ezs-electric-car-coming-to-australia-in-2020/



Here is another article about the MG and China's electric car tsunami, the graph on uptake is impressive.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/is-australia-about-to-get-its-first-chinese-electric-vehicle-95780/


----------



## qldfrog (22 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Here is another article about the MG and China's electric car tsunami, the graph on uptake is impressive.
> 
> https://reneweconomy.com.au/is-australia-about-to-get-its-first-chinese-electric-vehicle-95780/



Same article ;-)


----------



## sptrawler (22 October 2019)

OOops.


----------



## qldfrog (25 October 2019)

https://interestingengineering.com/a-tesla-model-3-produces-more-co2-than-a-diesel-car-study-says


----------



## Value Collector (26 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://interestingengineering.com/a-tesla-model-3-produces-more-co2-than-a-diesel-car-study-says




This kind of study has been debunked before.

One thing that blows the entire argument out the water is that there is a huge correlation between people owning E.V’s and people installing solar panels.

As soon as you get an ev, the next thing most people do is install solar, so regardless of what the “nation grid” uses, most ev owners including myself, are 100% renewable.

Also, there are multiple studies that show even if you are charging from 100% coal power, it is still only about the same as a petrol car.

There is also the city air pollution problem with burning fuel in the cities where people are trying to breathe, killing 1000’s every year.


----------



## sptrawler (27 October 2019)

Charging station frustration is already happening apparently.

https://thedriven.io/2019/10/26/congestion-pax-how-to-behave-at-electric-vehicle-charging-stations/


----------



## qldfrog (27 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> This kind of study has been debunked before.
> 
> One thing that blows the entire argument out the water is that there is a huge correlation between people owning E.V’s and people installing solar panels.
> 
> ...



Do not deny and mostly agree
But diesel car not petrol do not generate more CO2 unless you are self sufficient, and city air pollution is the reason China is big in EV, they do not care at all about CO2 /global warming
What this means is we should not dump our diesel for EV, but agreed we should renew with EV when needing replacement


----------



## qldfrog (28 October 2019)

Hydrogen car?
Interesting in my opinion article
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hydrogen-cars/


----------



## SirRumpole (28 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Hydrogen car?
> Interesting in my opinion article
> https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hydrogen-cars/




I guess the market will tell unless the guvmint decides what is good for us.


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Hydrogen car?
> Interesting in my opinion article
> https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hydrogen-cars/



It was pretty well spot on IMO, hydrogen wont be cheap or readily available untill we have a huge H2 industry, even then it will probably make more sense to export it to Countries that haven't got the renewables to make it.
The turning point IMO will come down the track, when the resources for batteries become more scarce and the residual left over waste from depleted batteries become an ecollogical nightmare.
Then I think there will be a shift away from battery EV's to fuel cell EV's, it will be pushed in a similar manner as the coal renewable issue is being pushed, sustainability.
But I can't see it happening for 50 years, by the time it takes to change the Worlds fleet to BEV's, then add the time it will take for enough batteries to die to cause a disposal issue.
It will all take a long time IMO.
What will happen quickly in Australia IMO, is the production of H2, even now with the amount of lost/excess renewable production, the private sector will be doing the sums on using it to produce marketable H2.

https://www.ga.gov.au/news-events/n...ia-highly-prospective-for-hydrogen-production


----------



## qldfrog (28 October 2019)

Agree that if we have to switch solar farm 4h a day around lunchtime, let's do hydrogen instead
Amazed no one has set up yet a small tank and turbine hydrolysis station within the solar farms, can even recycle the water technically


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Agree that if we have to switch solar farm 4h a day around lunchtime, let's do hydrogen instead
> Amazed no one has set up yet a small tank and turbine hydrolysis station within the solar farms, can even recycle the water technically



It's funny when the first big wind farm was built in W.A in 2006, I sent an email suggesting they install an electrolysis plant there, I received a thankyou for your suggestion reply. 
I have seen electrolysis working back in the late 1960's when in my apprenticeship, it just made absolute sense to use wind power that wasn't being consumed to make H2, rather than make it in a power station.


----------



## qldfrog (28 October 2019)

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...r/news-story/16be55dddc0dd97e0529ed52331b8642
Electric and hydrogen


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2019)

Sydney to go electric buses. Maybe
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...-s-8000-strong-bus-fleet-20191028-p534ts.html


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> They will destroy the western car industry.
> Probably good we got out of manufacture in Australia.
> 
> The MG brand is already in Australia. Electric version as you mentioned qldfrog not far away.
> https://www.caradvice.com.au/747869/mg-ezs-electric-car-coming-to-australia-in-2020/




Knobby here is another article, that shows the dominance of the Chinese, in the elctric car space.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/10/28/can-countries-catch-chinas-electric-car-dominance/

From the article:
China, which  is already the world’s largest market for electric vehicles,  is charging forward in  the global race to dominate the industry.
More than one million electric cars were sold in the country last year – representing half of global sales. The government has installed about a million charging stations on the streets – a far cry from the 15,800 public units in the UK.

With 100 companies tinkering  with EVs and investment dollars flooding in, it  is easy to see how China is poised to win.

“China’s market has  huge room for growth,” said Siyi Mi of Bloomberg New Energy Finance, a research firm


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I have seen electrolysis working back in the late 1960's when in my apprenticeship, it just made absolute sense to use wind power that wasn't being consumed to make H2, rather than make it in a power station.




There used to be a plant in Tasmania that went the whole way - water and electricity in, ammonia based fertilizers came out.

Long story short it was a viable industry with interstate markets as well as local until production based on natural gas became a big thing in Queensland. Once that happened it couldn't compete economically unless the power was close to free and the plant ended up being a very intermittent operation running only when there was surplus power otherwise going to waste but the proverbial writing was well and truly on the wall that it was game over before too much longer. 

By the mid-1980's there was little chance of there being any spare power and so it closed permanently and has since been demolished.

I haven't looked into whether the economics of the process are any better now or not.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> What this means is we should not dump our diesel for EV, but agreed we should renew with EV when needing replacement



Strongly agreed yes.

I'm a fan of EV's but I'm also very consciously aware that scrapping perfectly good things and manufacturing new ones isn't at all a "green" approach in general.

New cars as EV's, new appliances as electric and ramping up renewable energy all make good sense but scrapping working things is a very different proposition.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> With 100 companies tinkering  with EVs and investment dollars flooding in, it  is easy to see how China is poised to win.




And not just win with EV's but win more generally.

The related technologies of the internal combustion engine, oil industry and aviation all played a substantial role in US dominance during the 20th Century. Not that the US invented all of it but they took its application to what can only be regarded as an extreme compared to anywhere else.

China's EV dominance likewise will have significance far beyond the automotive industry.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Knobby here is another article, that shows the dominance of the Chinese, in the elctric car space.
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/10/28/can-countries-catch-chinas-electric-car-dominance/
> 
> From the article:
> ...




Just before Christmas I heard a female Liberal politician argue with the conservative Macquarie Radio host of a late night show that EV was not the future for cars for at least another 20 years and listened as the  listeners rang in to support her (the ignorance is astounding). She knew her base.


----------



## Value Collector (29 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> Strongly agreed yes.
> 
> I'm a fan of EV's but I'm also very consciously aware that scrapping perfectly good things and manufacturing new ones isn't at all a "green" approach in general.
> 
> New cars as EV's, new appliances as electric and ramping up renewable energy all make good sense but scrapping working things is a very different proposition.




I am not sure anyone is suggesting scrapping perfectly could cars, if you upgrade to an EV, you would obviously sell your current car into the used car market.


----------



## qldfrog (29 October 2019)

It is more i think about government policies which aim to that and are deeply flawn in term of environmental result
When you prevent access to a city to any diesel vehicle irrespective of its emission, it is a knee jerk reaction with overall negative result
Who will buy a diesel you are not allowed to drive
It is another regulated obsolescence, in the same way that your printer cartridge stop working after n prints
Good for sales..and taxes, a waste of resources with a varnish of "save the planet"


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Just before Christmas I heard a female Liberal politician argue with the conservative Macquarie Radio host of a late night show that EV was not the future for cars for at least another 20 years and listened as the  listeners rang in to support her (the ignorance is astounding). She knew her base.



I think what will happen will be, because it is a new space, there will be plenty of entrepreneurs who will want to make money filling the void.
Therefore once the supply issue is resolved, the demand and infrastructure, will quickly try to fill the void. 
Not that I think the technology(battery) is that great yet, but once the change over starts and the Government start and gain the benefit of the storage effect, I think momentum will accelerate exponentially.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 October 2019)

Might be an interesting speech coming up from Albanese in Perth.

Leaks indicate he's going to support the mining industry and battery metals technology.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 October 2019)

PS Joe,

I think this thread deserves to be moved out of GC into Business/Investment/Economics.

What do you think ?


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Might be an interesting speech coming up from Albanese in Perth.
> 
> Leaks indicate he's going to support the mining industry and battery metals technology.



Well that should keep the media on side. Hopefully it is battery construction, not just more digging and shipping.


----------



## Joe Blow (29 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> PS Joe,
> 
> I think this thread deserves to be moved out of GC into Business/Investment/Economics.
> 
> What do you think ?




Fine by me. Thread moved.


----------



## Knobby22 (29 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Well that should keep the media on side. Hopefully it is battery construction, not just more digging and shipping.



It would be good if the companies including the mining were Australian owned also and payed taxes.

Speaking of the dumbness of some of the right previously I think the far left also deserve a serve.
Violent protests at the mining conference today in Melbourne, attacking police and their horses (two arrested for cruelty to animals). Australia is now the worlds largest exporter of Lithium (70%), don't these protestors understand mining is important. I bet they all have mobile phones and think electric cars are good.

Victorian laws are weak. They removed the laws that allow the police to have the right to move on.
Honestly, this State Labor Government needs to grow a few balls.

Sorry for thread drift.


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> It would be good if the companies including the mining were Australian owned also and payed taxes.
> 
> Speaking of the dumbness of some of the right previously I think the far left also deserve a serve.
> Violent protests at the mining conference today in Melbourne, attacking police and their horses (two arrested for cruelty to animals). Australia is now the worlds largest exporter of Lithium (70%), don't these protestors understand mining is important. I bet they all have mobile phones and think electric cars are good.
> ...




I think a lot of the protesters, just use protests as an excuse to behave badly, it is just like any other gang that think they can behave badly and illegally because they have numbers that the police can't handle.
They are no different to any other thugs really.
It is when the press and media sensationalise their behaviour, that problems start.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I think a lot of the protesters, just use protests as an excuse to behave badly, it is just like any other gang that think they can behave badly and illegally because they have numbers that the police can't handle.
> They are no different to any other thugs really.
> It is when the press and media sensationalise their behaviour, that problems start.




Infiltration by anti capitalist Marxists I think.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (29 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> It would be good if the companies including the mining were Australian owned also and payed taxes.
> 
> Speaking of the dumbness of some of the right previously I think the far left also deserve a serve.
> Violent protests at the mining conference today in Melbourne, attacking police and their horses (two arrested for cruelty to animals). Australia is now the worlds largest exporter of Lithium (70%), don't these protestors understand mining is important. I bet they all have mobile phones and think electric cars are good.
> ...




I don't have a problem with any protest, whether it is about mining, climate policy or franking credits. It is part of the democratic process and the "crackdowns" scare me a lot more than the protests.  The recent Qld legislation is a very bad precedent in my view. And the feds threatening even more citizen surveillance is appalling.  A bit of tolerance and acceptance that there are other views and ways of expressing them would be nice.  The disruption and annoyance they cause is very temporary.

I do agree that protesting "the mining industry" is misguided. I am (was) an ecologist and the direct environmental impacts of mining are minuscule compared with those of broad acre agriculture and urban development - but the mythology persists. In my experience, Australian miners are often at the forefront of environmental science and management and that is one of their competitive advantages when expanding operations into other countries.  IMO, the public perception problem is deep and arises from:

*Legacy issues* - mines operating early last century did so without environmental considerations and have left some truly awful and very expensive long-term problems (eg. Rum Jungle and many, many gold mines).  These are deeply etched in public consciousness.  The perception that miners take their profit (often with little benefit to the community) and then saddle the public with huge long-term costs, is very pervasive.

*Industry Groups* dominated by the big coal miners and the O&G sector (many of them multinationals) actively undermining (no pun) reasonable Government efforts to bring in more reasonable tax and CC emissions policies.  They play hard and they win. 

*A Few Bad Apples* - people like That Big Bloke and the woman who got her daddy's iron ore business - blatantly buying politicians and distorting policy in their favour.  There are, of course, smaller and less visible cowboys (and girls) in the industry (as there are in any money-making enterprise, including in the renewables sector).

I'd really like to see the benefits and outstanding performances of the modern sector more widely known, but I don't see that happening while the current power imbalance in public policy remains.


----------



## qldfrog (29 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Infiltration by anti capitalist Marxists I think.



You mean in shorter words: Australian Greens?


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

It will be interesting to see how the electric car field develops, and whether the Chinese companies can get a foot hold in Europe and the U.S. 
One thing that may hold them back is the lack of badge value, but as has been seen with tools, people are buying tools at a price point these days this has driven down the cost of established tools like De Walt, Makita etc.
People seem to be a lot more price driven these days, using the extra money for dinning out, holidays etc. As opposed to years ago where tools, cars and other consumables were bought mainly on brand.
It hasn't been driven by income, as consumables in reality have dropped in relative price to wages, I think it is mainly due to a continuous improvement in the Chinese product.
It will be an interesting decade coming up IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> It will be interesting to see how the electric car field develops, and whether the Chinese companies can get a foot hold in Europe and the U.S.
> One thing that may hold them back is the lack of badge value, but as has been seen with tools, people are buying tools at a price point these days this has driven down the cost of established tools like De Walt, Makita etc.
> People seem to be a lot more price driven these days, using the extra money for dinning out, holidays etc. As opposed to years ago where tools, cars and other consumables were bought mainly on brand.
> It hasn't been driven by income, as consumables in reality have dropped in relative price to wages, I think it is mainly due to a continuous improvement in the Chinese product.
> It will be an interesting decade coming up IMO.




I think the Chinese will do what they always have done, produce cheap but low quality merchandise , go after quick sales then run away when when the cracks appear.


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> I think the Chinese will do what they always have done, produce cheap but low quality merchandise , go after quick sales then run away when when the cracks appear.



That what everyone said about the Japanese in the 1960's and the Koreans in the 1990's.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> That what everyone said about the Japanese in the 1960's and the Koreans in the 1990's.




But Japan and Korea don't havea  communist government that doesn't really care about the capitalist customers as long as they make a Renimbi.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (29 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> It will be interesting to see how the electric car field develops, and whether the Chinese companies can get a foot hold in Europe and the U.S.
> One thing that may hold them back is the lack of badge value, but as has been seen with tools, people are buying tools at a price point these days this has driven down the cost of established tools like De Walt, Makita etc.
> People seem to be a lot more price driven these days, using the extra money for dinning out, holidays etc. As opposed to years ago where tools, cars and other consumables were bought mainly on brand.
> It hasn't been driven by income, as consumables in reality have dropped in relative price to wages, I think it is mainly due to a continuous improvement in the Chinese product.
> It will be an interesting decade coming up IMO.




While a different market, I have just bought an electric bike ("e-bike") for my wife.  After researching and shopping around, we went for a Chinese bike over the (much more stylish and hip) european models.  While price and build-quality were big considerations, it was the after-sales service that made the difference.  The manufacturer had a long-standing relationship with our (local) retailer and supplied spares, upgrades and manuals. These simply weren't available for the European models (although I could buy a "service contract" from the retailer, for another $300 on top of their already much higher price).  The Chinese e-bikes are very utilitarian and are clearly designed for commuting rather than for showing off or for speed.  I guess that is the nature of the Chinese market.


----------



## Junior (29 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Just before Christmas I heard a female Liberal politician argue with the conservative Macquarie Radio host of a late night show that EV was not the future for cars for at least another 20 years and listened as the  listeners rang in to support her (the ignorance is astounding). She knew her base.




It's the same story with renewables.  It doesn't matter which Government is in power here, there are unstoppable forces which mean EVs and Renewables WILL take over.  It will come down to economics and the desire for big business to appear as though they are doing the right thing by the environment.

Renewables will be cheaper and more palatable to the general public going forward, so that's where big business and tech $$ is flowing and will continue to flow.  And in this country with our abundance of sun, wind geothermal and other renewable resources, why the hell would we fight against the global trend and continue to be obsessed with coal.  Coal will be around for a little while longer, but the big picture is that coal is DEAD.

Same with EVs.  In a couple of years, when you go to buy a new car, a simple calculator will compare total cost of Petrol-powered with EV, and at some point EV will work out to be cheaper.  Not to mention all the other potential benefits (lower maintenance, less need to re-fuel at a station, superior performance & handling etc. etc.).  Once we cross that threshold Government will have no choice but to support the transition.  It shouldn't be a political issue.  It's just technological advancement, and progress.  Some of us can see the obvious and some will fight it right up to the end.


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

The major difference IMO, between the ice and ev car , is the simplicity.
It is easier to build, easier to maintain, less complex and a lot fewer parts.
So in reality it beats the ice vehicle hands down, but due to infrastructure and supply limitations, it will take some time to take over from from ice vehicles.
It is a bit like coal, it will go, but it will go faster in Australia.
That is because we have a small population, therefore small electrical load and we have a perfect climate and space for renewables.
Not all Countries are so fortunate.


----------



## qldfrog (29 October 2019)

We are actually one of the few places on earth where it is actually relatively easy to put solar on your roof and have enough to power your own transport
I am really looking forward at a solution where the car battery itself might power your tv in the evening, and be recharged during the day with your own panels.the nisan leaf had such a system demonstrated in an article but the cost was horrendous.
Tesla could should do that too in conjunction with their battery system


----------



## Boggo (29 October 2019)

Solar in Australia is amazing and something that everyone should be using as much as possible imo.

When I'm up North etc I run a solar blanket on my camper trailer for battery and fridge and another on my 4wd for second battery and fridge. They keep everything charged up to the max.

Below is a pic of my rooftop solar system as of about 10 mins ago, best investment I have made I believe.
4.21kw being fed back into the grid.

Solar cars... jury is well and truly out on this one, both for the Nissan and the Electric Jesus vehicles.


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> We are actually one of the few places on earth where it is actually relatively easy to put solar on your roof and have enough to power your own transport
> I am really looking forward at a solution where the car battery itself might power your tv in the evening, and be recharged during the day with your own panels.the nisan leaf had such a system demonstrated in an article but the cost was horrendous.
> Tesla could should do that too in conjunction with their battery system



I think I read the Leaf is going to have the 2way battery system by 2021, which will put pressure on the other manufacturers to install the technology also.


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

Boggo said:


> Solar in Australia is amazing and something that everyone should be using as much as possible imo.
> 
> When I'm up North etc I run a solar blanket on my camper trailer for battery and fridge and another on my 4wd for second battery and fridge. They keep everything charged up to the max.
> 
> ...



Hi Boggo, you are spot on rooftop solar is a no brainer, I've had it on for 11 years, best thing since sliced bread IMO.
Especially with all the rebates, in W.A 6.6KW system for $2,950 installed, you can't go wrong.


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

This is the car for me, if they can get reasonable hydrogen infrastructure installed and deliver hydrogen at a reasonable price to the pump.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/mirai...heage&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-2


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## Smurf1976 (29 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> As opposed to years ago where tools, cars and other consumables were bought mainly on brand.



I think what's changed is that if you're spending a month's wages on something then you want to be sure it's a decent one that you're buying.

If the same item is now no more than day's pay then may as well take a chance on the cheap one. It's not a disaster if it fails.


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> I think what's changed is that if you're spending a month's wages on something then you want to be sure it's a decent one that you're buying.
> 
> If the same item is now no more than day's pay then may as well take a chance on the cheap one. It's not a disaster if it fails.



That's exactly what has happened, the perfect example is cordless gear, tradies always used Makita because it lasted well.
Now a lot are changing over to things like Ryobi for 1/3 of the price, this has caused companies like DeWalt, Makita etc to reduce their prices.
Now Aldi are bringing out a 20v cordless system, they aren't as good IMO, but for the handyman who uses the tools three times a year, they will suffice for 1/2 the price of Ryobi.

These days with uber, improved public transport, cheap airfares and car hire, the requirement to have a top shelf car to get across the Nullabor are gone. Therefore I think the next generation, those around 30, will not put as much emphasize on a car as we did.
To a degree it is already happening, Hyundai, Kia's Toyota's etc are outselling Holden, Fords as people priorities differently.
It is going to be an interesting period smurf, which I think will be a lot of fun in a lot of ways.


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2019)

Boggo said:


> Solar cars... jury is well and truly out on this one, both for the Nissan and the Electric Jesus vehicles.




Battery degradation is a real issue at this point in time and it is the biggest hurdle for EV's IMO, because when all the early uptakers are complaining at the same time Governments will have to take notice.
It is also the reason, that even though they are dearer in all aspects, fuel cell vehicles are more practical and sustainable. 
Just my opinion.


----------



## Boggo (29 October 2019)

Another issue according to the inside goss that is being discussed at the moment at a state level is the loss of revenue from fuel purchases and how they are going to implement an electric user pays system.
If it is a local state discussion I'm sure we are not to only state looking into this.

I guess the they are rightly looking at why only the petrol /diesel users end up contributing to general revenue.

Apparently the area of contention is when to start making this public as the don't want to be seen to inhibit the electric expansion but they need to address it.
There is an element that would like to see petrol/diesel users under additional pressure but the realists are wondering who funds the road etc infrastructure when they are extinct.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 October 2019)

Boggo said:


> Another issue according to the inside goss that is being discussed at the moment at a state level is the loss of revenue from fuel purchases and how they are going to implement an electric user pays system.
> If it is a local state discussion I'm sure we are not to only state looking into this.
> 
> I guess the they are rightly looking at why only the petrol /diesel users end up contributing to general revenue.
> ...




Yes that has been discussed a fair bit in this thread.

It's a tough problem, but ultimately I think they will have to implement some form of recording chip for EV's that charges per km. This will obviously give a lot of work for the hackers to "turn back the speedos", just like the good old days.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 October 2019)

Boggo said:


> There is an element that would like to see petrol/diesel users under additional pressure but the realists are wondering who funds the road etc infrastructure when they are extinct.




I'll try to avoid much politics and just say that if fuel excise is even simply retained at present levels then it eventually becomes a tax on the poor in practice.

If it was up to me then once the sale of petrol and diesel cars comes to a halt or becomes only the cheapest cars you can buy I'd scrap fuel excise altogether and implement a new road pricing system for all vehicles regardless of technology.

My reason is that otherwise a fuel tax ends up being a tax on mostly poorer people in practice, assuming that there's a reasonable link between lower income and owning an older vehicle albeit an imperfect one, and that's not an acceptable approach socially or politically despite any environmental arguments in favour of it.

There's more tech than you might expect in current production vehicles in relation to that by the way. Eg tracking the movement of individual cars through cities is already done electronically - even relatively small cities do that now simply using bluetooth either from the car itself or from a device (eg mobile phone) within it.

It must also be said that fuel excise is not directly a road user charge. The money goes into consolidated revenue (Australian Government) and most roads are maintained by local or state governments not federal. There are grants handed out between the levels of government but it's a very loose link between excise revenue and the amount spent on roads. Where that goes is saying that declining revenue from petrol and diesel could be replaced by a tax on anything, it doesn't necessarily need to be a tax on EV's specifically.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (30 October 2019)

I just checked my diary and I'm off to a public forum tonight called "Will My Next Car Be Electric?". It will have speakers from the renewables lobby and our local (ACT) government (which apparently has a group dealing with transition issues!).  If I get the chance, I'll ask about public recharging infrastructure, hydrogen alternatives and roads funding and report back here.  

In theory, the ACT is already on 100% renewable electricity (basically because our wholesalers are compelled to buy renewable-sourced electricity from the grid and we do have some big solar and wind farms). Weirdly (if you believe the nay sayers), our electricity is cheaper than every State (but very close to Qld prices). The accounting on this boggles my mind.


----------



## Junior (30 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> It must also be said that fuel excise is not directly a road user charge. The money goes into consolidated revenue (Australian Government) and most roads are maintained by local or state governments not federal. There are grants handed out between the levels of government but it's a very loose link between excise revenue and the amount spent on roads. Where that goes is saying that declining revenue from petrol and diesel could be replaced by a tax on anything, it doesn't necessarily need to be a tax on EV's specifically.




Yes, and when you add in vehicle registration, parking fines, speeding fines, toll road charges etc., road users already contribute a huge amount of revenue into the pot.


----------



## qldfrog (30 October 2019)

Or taxation level could take a hit, and we could cut services, one rusted tincan  less in obsolete submarine 20y for example just kidding, we are in Australia, the land of the never reducing budget


----------



## SirRumpole (30 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> I just checked my diary and I'm off to a public forum tonight called "Will My Next Car Be Electric?". It will have speakers from the renewables lobby and our local (ACT) government (which apparently has a group dealing with transition issues!).  If I get the chance, I'll ask about public recharging infrastructure, hydrogen alternatives and roads funding and report back here.
> 
> In theory, the ACT is already on 100% renewable electricity (basically because our wholesalers are compelled to buy renewable-sourced electricity from the grid and we do have some big solar and wind farms). Weirdly (if you believe the nay sayers), our electricity is cheaper than every State (but very close to Qld prices). The accounting on this boggles my mind.




I'm sure we will all be interested in your report Jack.


----------



## Value Collector (30 October 2019)

Hydrogen is just an attempt by oil companies to keep the public attending petrol stations, and keep them in the business of drilling natural gas.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Hydrogen is just an attempt by oil companies to keep the public attending petrol stations, and keep them in the business of drilling natural gas.




Maybe EV's are just a ruse by the power companies to get people to buy more electricity ?

Either way, the fuel has to come from somewhere and uses resources to make it.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (30 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Battery degradation is a real issue at this point in time and it is the biggest hurdle for EV's IMO, because when all the early uptakers are complaining at the same time Governments will have to take notice.
> It is also the reason, that even though they are dearer in all aspects, fuel cell vehicles are more practical and sustainable.
> Just my opinion.




Battery tech advances so rapidly I find it hard to keep up.  Apart from the alternatives to rechargeable Li-Ion batteries, such as Vanadium Gels and the replaceable Aluminium Can battery,  Elon Musk is touting upgraded Li-Ion batteries with a life that would deliver One Million miles of travel over their life.  Yes, early adopters of EV will pay a premium (I have concerns about the resale value of current generation EVs, not to mention ICE vehicles) as better tech replaces them.

Hydrogen cells certainly look great once storage and transport of the fuel is addressed - which CSIRO and others are doing.  My concern, as others have noted, is the "whole of life" emissions involved and what happens to the carbon during extraction of the H.  So called "fugitive" emissions from gas production is a big problem now.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe EV's are just a ruse by the power companies to get people to buy more electricity ?
> 
> Either way, the fuel has to come from somewhere and uses resources to make it.




FWIW at least one Australian electricity company has been involved with the conversion of a standard vehicle to electric power and another one to hydrogen quite some years ago for research purposes.

The hydrogen powered one was actually an entrant in Targa Tasmania (a race of sorts on public roads) as a “real” entrant alongside its petrol powered competitors. 

The power industry has been paying attention to both for quite some time. The mockup image of a service station with hydrogen pumps, on-site electrolyser and electricity company branding is probably still online somewhere although that was over a decade ago now.


----------



## Junior (30 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> Battery tech advances so rapidly I find it hard to keep up.  Apart from the alternatives to rechargeable Li-Ion batteries, such as Vanadium Gels and the replaceable Aluminium Can battery,  Elon Musk is touting upgraded Li-Ion batteries with a life that would deliver One Million miles of travel over their life.  Yes, early adopters of EV will pay a premium (I have concerns about the resale value of current generation EVs, not to mention ICE vehicles) as better tech replaces them.




This is critical.  

Battery technology is advancing so quickly....you will need less power to drive more miles every year, and the batteries will last longer and longer.  In terms of the mining process one would think economies of scale will continue to come into play as the uptake of battery-powered vehicles and homes continues, and emissions created during the mining process should fall.  Any energy used during the mining process will eventually be sourced from renewable sources, and on-site vehicles will eventually be EV.

You simply cannot say the same for IC vehicles, as every km you travel consumes more oil.

The other huge benefit, is the vast improvement we will see in air quality in our cities.  Try driving through the Burnley tunnel with your window down......you will suffocate and pass out before you get to the other side!


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2019)

Junior said:


> *This is critical*.
> 
> Battery technology is advancing so quickly....you will need less power to drive more miles every year, and the batteries will last longer and longer.  In terms of the mining process one would think economies of scale will continue to come into play as the uptake of battery-powered vehicles and homes continues, and emissions created during the mining process should fall.  Any energy used during the mining process will eventually be sourced from renewable sources, and on-site vehicles will eventually be EV.
> 
> ...




You nailed it with that quote Junior, unless battery technology improves, it will be one of the biggest flops ever. 
As a stockpile of toxic dead battery material builds, due to the massive introduction of new batteries, questions will start and be asked about the sustainability.
If the life cycle can't be improved, the push toward H2 fuel cells will increase, I think Japan recognises this and it is the reason they are going the H2 path straight away.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Junior (30 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> You nailed it with that quote Junior, unless battery technology improves, it will be one of the biggest flops ever.
> As a stockpile of toxic dead battery material builds, due to the massive introduction of new batteries, questions will start and be asked about the sustainability.
> If the life cycle can't be improved, the push toward H2 fuel cells will increase, I think Japan recognises this and it is the reason they are going the H2 path straight away.
> Just my opinion.




That's the thing right...it doesn't matter what type of battery, the point is the tech will continue to advance quickly, and they will have to figure out a way to recycle old batteries.  Consumers will demand it.  

The point is, EVs produce no exhaust, need less maintenance and are highly likely to become more cost-effective than IC in the near future.  It's a no-brainer to continue down this path.


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2019)

Junior said:


> That's the thing right...it doesn't matter what type of battery, the point is the tech will continue to advance quickly, and they will have to figure out a way to recycle old batteries.  Consumers will demand it.
> 
> The point is, EVs produce no exhaust, need less maintenance and are highly likely to become more cost-effective than IC in the near future.  It's a no-brainer to continue down this path.



That is exactly what they are hoping for, but a lot of time, research and money has been poured into battery development, which in reality hasn't really come up with any quantum leaps forward.
There is a lot of hoping going on and everyone understandably wants it to work out, however a lot of the driving at the moment is being done by public pressure, not sound technological improvement.
As you say customers will demand it, whether the designers can deliver it will to a degree be a case of wait and see what happens.
IMO the story is getting ahead of the reality, but I am hoping my next car will be electric, the difference with me is I am retired and can manage without a car.
But battery development has a long way to go, hopefully they have some major breakthrough, I'm sure lots are working on it.
Eon Musk is talking about the million mile battery, that will last the life of the car, now that would be magic because then that could be moved from an old car to a new car.
But ATM seeing is believing.


----------



## qldfrog (30 October 2019)

Same here, retiring means my car will stay at hone fed with my panels during the day, not parked at train station or in an UG city carpark
And i do not need to do a commute trip a day


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Same here, retiring means my car will stay at hone fed with my panels during the day, not parked at train station or in an UG city carpark
> And i do not need to do a commute trip a day



Spot on frog, the wife and I just got back from a 10klm pedal to Aldi, she carried 10x2litre milk containers home, on the back of the push bike.
Unfortunately my bike doesn't have a carrier, or I could have helped. 
By the way that is 10klm each way.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on frog, the wife and I just got back from a 10klm pedal to Aldi, she carried 10x2litre milk containers home, on the back of the push bike.
> Unfortunately my bike doesn't have a carrier, or I could have helped.
> By the way that is 10klm each way.




Maybe you need an electric bike.


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe you need an electric bike.



Already have them, but the ride to do the shopping is for excercise.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (30 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> I just checked my diary and I'm off to a public forum tonight called "Will My Next Car Be Electric?". It will have speakers from the renewables lobby and our local (ACT) government (which apparently has a group dealing with transition issues!).  If I get the chance, I'll ask about public recharging infrastructure, hydrogen alternatives and roads funding and report back here.
> 
> In theory, the ACT is already on 100% renewable electricity (basically because our wholesalers are compelled to buy renewable-sourced electricity from the grid and we do have some big solar and wind farms). Weirdly (if you believe the nay sayers), our electricity is cheaper than every State (but very close to Qld prices). The accounting on this boggles my mind.




Well, it was an interesting talk but not exactly what I had expected - mostly about how far and fast the Europeans are moving (and how far we are behind).

One speaker reviewed the Euro scene in terms of the plans of the major manufacturers (VW, Audi, Renault and Mercedes) and how the Governments, power companies and ancillary industries are working with them.  Key highlights for me were:

Big focus on cars as mobile batteries - charging at depots/work places during the day and discharging at homes at night.

Lots of associated businesses - charging network providers, ICE conversion companies (!), battery recycling/repurposing - are considered part of the industry and have the backing of the manufacturers.

Battery life is seen as challenge, but not one they are overly worried about as they say "exhausted" car batteries can (and already are) being repurposed for conventional energy storage (Renault does this). They also accept that batteries will get better year-on-year.  Most manufacturers build their cars around "drop in" batteries anyway.

Of the car companies discussed, only Merc expects to be making ICE cars (petrol, NOT diesel) in 15 years time (Merc says about 30% of their output will still be high tech (very low emission) petrol engines.

Germany expects that electric cars will start to put pressure on the (European) grid by 2026.  The gap will be filled by renewables.

Australia will continue to receive very few new European EVs over the next three years as 1) their priority is reaching critical mass in Europe for infrastructure reasons, 2) battery supply constraints, 3) majors need to maintain car sales when the new Euro emission standards come into force, and 4) Australia's side air bag requirements are a PIA.​
The rest of the talk was about the measures the ACT Government is taking to promote uptake of EVs (and Hydrogen). I'll summarise briefly:

No sales tax and a 20% discount on registration (already in place)

More than 30 free public charging stations (55 charge points) already operating (plus one Hydrogen refuelling station)

Govt working with regional councils along major highways to ensure lots of charging points.

All ACT Government fleet cars to be zero emissions by the end of 2020.  Bus fleet to follow. (EV Ambulances and a fire truck are being trialled)

Looking towards other incentives for private uptake and review of development rules for new unit blocks to have charging stations.​
I asked about the replacement of fuel excise as a revenue source (a very Canberra question).  Local Govt people were aware of this as a long-term issue but think the national uptake will be so slow that it won't become an issue for around 10 years.

Other matters raised included that fact the Australia currently sees 23 models of commercial EVs - Europeans have a choice of 125.  The fact that we have no have national strategy and are unlikely to have one anytime soon was highlighted (but that's just Canberra Bubble talk!).

Tea, coffee and mint slice biscuits were provided. I indulged.


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2019)

Excellent summary, thanks Jack.


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> The fact that we have no have national strategy and are unlikely to have one anytime soon was highlighted



My great hope in all of this is that we (Australia) doesn't stuff it up in the same way we've tended to stuff up other technical things in recent times. Electricity, gas, NBN, water management...... 

I don't mean that as a negative comment, and I'm strongly in favour of EV's, but I've seen more than enough in other technical fields to be in the "alert and alarmed" category that this one doesn't also end up as a political football.  

That we'll end up with a solution forced by European manufacturers is perhaps a good thing really.


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2019)

Smurf1976 said:


> My great hope in all of this is that we (Australia) doesn't stuff it up in the same way we've tended to stuff up other technical things in recent times. Electricity, gas, NBN, water management......
> 
> I don't mean that as a negative comment, and I'm strongly in favour of EV's, but I've seen more than enough in other technical fields to be in the "alert and alarmed" category that this one doesn't also end up as a political football.
> 
> That we'll end up with a solution forced by European manufacturers is perhaps a good thing really.



Absolutely agree, we really are no position to demand a standard voltage or plug etc, as you say we are better off to wait untill standards are introduced in a major market like the EU then adopt it.


----------



## qldfrog (31 October 2019)

One point of worry about EV is the lack of noise
It is dangerous not to hear these gliding electric bikes or taxis zipping past by the hundred in China
There should be a pleasant, low range sound added to car to avoid road kills .. human or animal

And that probably means we have at least one parasite department per country..or state, starting a million plus new project to define volume, frequency, etc
And they will make it mandatory on sold vehicles
Anyone gas any info on this ir will it only happen after the first class action against Tesla?
Good think is with electronic, it will be really easy to be compliant with dozen of disparate standards, but if we could avoid....


----------



## Jack Aubrey (31 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely agree, we really are no position to demand a standard voltage or plug etc, as you say we are better off to wait untill standards are introduced in a major market like the EU then adopt it.




Yes, it occurred to me during the meeting that we may actually benefit from not having a domestic car industry lobbying furiously to hold back the tide.  We will certainly be a "technology taker"  rather than innovator in this instance. Several EV owners at the meeting were of the view that Japanese manufacturers will eventually adopt the European charging standard, but that may have been their confirmation bias.  The Chinese were not mentioned at all.  Given that the Europeans are not particularly interested in export markets at the moment, that's where supply may come from.

There are also some complexities around Australian vehicle emission standards. We are at least a decade behind Europe and California.  There was some suggestion at the meeting that this may be seen as opportunity for other countries to dump their dirtier ICE lines in our market.  I can't see that happening as we are such a small market and I don't think it would be worth their while.


----------



## Value Collector (31 October 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe EV's are just a ruse by the power companies to get people to buy more electricity ?
> 
> Either way, the fuel has to come from somewhere and uses resources to make it.




People can make their own electricity, and there is a lot of competition to exploit multiple fuel sources, eg wind, solar, hydro, nuclear, coal, gas, oil, geothermal, wave power etc etc etc.

And people charge at home, or in any number of convenient locations that pop up.


With hydrogen, it will pretty much just be natural gas based sources, and fueling stations will be existing petrol stations.

Hydrogen = status quo for big oil, and they like that, what would be more scary for big oil than the idea people will charge at home 99% of the time, and the other 1% during road trips they will be charging at sites that aren’t their petrol stations.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (31 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Hydrogen = status quo for big oil, and they like that, what would be more scary for big oil than the idea people will charge at home 99% of the time, and the other 1% during road trips they will be charging at sites that aren’t their petrol stations.




I've got no problem with Hydrogen from gas provided carbon capture and storage is part of the whole deal.  ACT Buses and some other heavy vehicles are tipped to go Hydrogen in the next two years because of weight and long daily use issues. A trial of battery buses in 2018 threw up major charging and battery-life issues. At present our (ACT) Hydrogen supply is from water electrolysis (a side-deal with one of our wind energy suppliers). The (Federal) Chief Scientist is also backing Hydrogen for heavy vehicle fleets.  Gas economics defeats me.  We seem to be an importer now despite abundant reserves.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> Gas economics defeats me.  We seem to be an importer now despite abundant reserves.




It's more gas politics.

Some people in government have done pretty well out of these deals I would say, and if hydrogen is the fuel of the future then I can see that going the same way.

Concentrate on exports and the Australian consumer gets the dregs.


In that, I can see the point VC is making. There are many more sources of electricity to charge EV's than there would be sources of hydrogen.


----------



## Value Collector (31 October 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> I've got no problem with Hydrogen from gas provided carbon capture and storage is part of the whole deal.  ACT Buses and some other heavy vehicles are tipped to go Hydrogen in the next two years because of weight and long daily use issues. A trial of battery buses in 2018 threw up major charging and battery-life issues. At present our (ACT) Hydrogen supply is from water electrolysis (a side-deal with one of our wind energy suppliers). The (Federal) Chief Scientist is also backing Hydrogen for heavy vehicle fleets.  Gas economics defeats me.  We seem to be an importer now despite abundant reserves.



I have no problem with hydrogen if it were coming from electrolysis.

Except,.... that process has such huge energy losses, that you are far better off using the electricity to charge batteries, rather than fill tanks of hydrogen, and then convert it back to electricity.

Also, due to the huge energy losses of electrolysis, natural gas is a cheaper alternative, So even though the process will be sold as a “green” alternative, it actually won’t be, the increased demand for hydrogen won’t create demand for renewables it will create demand for natural gas.

Electric buses are growing in popularity every where, what ever issues you had in the Act are probably easily solved.

—————-
As I have mentioned before, I am longterm shareholder in Apa, so any extra demand for Natural gas means more dividends for me.

So it’s in my interest to push hydrogen, but I just honestly don’t think it’s the way to go.

(Although there will be some great uses for hydrogen in storage of excess green energy, and other uses, but for most vehicles, batteries are better today, and will get increasingly better with time. )


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I have no problem with hydrogen if it were coming from electrolysis.
> 
> Except,.... that process has such huge energy losses, that you are far better off using the electricity to charge batteries, rather than fill tanks of hydrogen, and then convert it back to electricity.
> 
> ...



The thing is, there will be purpose built solar/wind hydrogen farms, two such proposed plants are well into the design stage for the NW of W.A.
The electricity produced will be primarily for hydrogen production, so energy loss as such isn't an issue, it is just a product from a renewable source that can be sold at market price.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/huge-pi...igger-as-focus-turns-to-green-hydrogen-64292/
And the second proposed plant.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/massive...cts-set-to-fuel-was-hydrogen-expansion-91993/


----------



## Knobby22 (31 October 2019)

Headlines we will never see:

Hydrogen Plant leak causes Jockey voice complaint within town.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Headlines we will never see:
> 
> Hydrogen Plant leak causes Jockey voice complaint within town.




I think that's Helium.


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> Headlines we will never see:
> 
> Hydrogen Plant leak causes Jockey voice complaint within town.



The good thing is, any leak will go straight up as it is so light, LNG can pool badly due to its weight.


----------



## qldfrog (31 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The good thing is, any leak will go straight up as it is so light, LNG can pool badly due to its weight.



Everything will go up very fast in presence of a naked flame
Crying voices will be affected...


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Everything will go up very fast in presence of a naked flame
> Crying voices will be affected...



Yes the stoichiometric ratio for H2 combustion with air is very low, fortunately when used in an electric car a flame is not part of the energy release process, so the fuel and the converter can be kept very close  together to minimise any possibility of a leak.
Also I assume the tank and fuel cell can be held in a vented section, so if any leak did occur it would quickly disperse, due to its lightness relative to air.
The other thing with a H2 fuel tank, it is a pressure vessel the same as an oxygen tank, therefore it has to be made to extremely high tolerances and standards. They are nothing like a cars fuel tank, the high pressure liquid gas cylinders can take a shot from a high powered rifle and still not rupture.


----------



## WolfInvestor22 (31 October 2019)

The push for electric vechiles is ineviatable as someone has said . As investors it is more how we can take advanatge of the increase in demand for inputs such as Cobalt and Lithium . I read this article a few weeks ago and believe it is very relevant .. 
Cobalt stocks


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2019)

WolfInvestor22 said:


> The push for electric vechiles is ineviatable as someone has said . As investors it is more how we can take advanatge of the increase in demand for inputs such as Cobalt and Lithium . I read this article a few weeks ago and believe it is very relevant ..
> Cobalt stocks



Firstly welcome to the forum Wolf, that is a good article, we have been discussing the underlying supply/demand for battery materials for a while.
At present the general consensus is that nickel is where the demand is outstripping supply, therefore the nickel stocks have been on a bit of a run, if you search the nickel threads on individual stocks or nickel in general there is quite a bit of discussion.
With regard lithium and cobalt there appears to be a bit of an oversupply, your article explained the cobalt issue well.
To search a subject, the search function on the top right of the home page is a great place to start, anyway hope you join in the discussions and enjoy the forum.


----------



## Value Collector (31 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> The thing is, there will be purpose built solar/wind hydrogen farms, two such proposed plants are well into the design stage for the NW of W.A.
> The electricity produced will be primarily for hydrogen production, so energy loss as such isn't an issue, it is just a product from a renewable source that can be sold at market price.
> 
> https://reneweconomy.com.au/huge-pi...igger-as-focus-turns-to-green-hydrogen-64292/
> ...




Energy loss is an issue in the sense that with the amount of energy it takes to charge 1000 cars, you can probably on fill 600 cars with hydrogen.

I can see hydrogen being used in cases where we absolutely have to store electricity if we will lose it, but it’s not the best primary use to store electricity.


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Energy loss is an issue in the sense that with the amount of energy it takes to charge 1000 cars, you can probably on fill 600 cars with hydrogen.
> 
> I can see hydrogen being used in cases where we absolutely have to store electricity if we will lose it, but it’s not the best primary use to store electricity.



No it isn't the best primary way to store electricity, but it has high energy density and it is transportable. It won't make sense for cars, but heavy vehicles will probably be the first to utilise it. IMO
The other issue is, if a huge solar/wind farm is located in the middle of nowhere, the electricity has to be harvested,stored and transported. Therfore it requires changing into a transportable medium, currently H2 is the best option, the 1,000 cars can't drive to the solar farm for charging and transmission lines may well be impractical.


----------



## qldfrog (31 October 2019)

I mentioned this a while back maybe in another thread but H2 by its nature is very hard to keep, it tends to escape at the first opportunity even thru thin metal etc.
I expect it will be much harder to design an H2 chain similar to LPG: with production, train or pipeline, vessels and service stations down to end user vehicle;
I like the h2/H20 battery cell rechargeable concept for the beauty of the chemistry involved, but in reality, I think we are not there yet;
The escapism of H2, the Houdini of gases, also means that it will probably be more reasonable to put production near consumption: 
Bye bye Australia as H2 major producer dream....

Moving more into energy system problem overall, I suspect we will see standard EV a la lithium etc recharged on the grid, but that grid could make nice use of PV and wind , where these green farms could produce H2 when in overproduction mode and just burn the H2 in a turbine the old way during the night or as a way to provide some base production on windless day;
Is that dreaming or doable @sptrawler or @Smurf1976 ?
This could maybe even make us reuse some of our gas turbine with minimal modification, H2O could be recycled to avoid too high water consumption on the farm for the H2 production
Wouldn't it be nice????
In that case, nickel and lithium vanadium are still a go


----------



## Jack Aubrey (31 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> The escapism of H2, the Houdini of gases, also means that it will probably be more reasonable to put production near consumption:
> Bye bye Australia as H2 major producer dream....




Not there yet, certainly, but ammonia (NH4) is a possible pathway for H transport.  There are other possible solutions in the pipeline (no pun ...) including research at the University of Newcastle using Halloysite (nano tubes) (I LOVE HALLOYSITE!)


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> I mentioned this a while back maybe in another thread but H2 by its nature is very hard to keep, it tends to escape at the first opportunity even thru thin metal etc.
> I expect it will be much harder to design an H2 chain similar to LPG: with production, train or pipeline, vessels and service stations down to end user vehicle;
> I like the h2/H20 battery cell rechargeable concept for the beauty of the chemistry involved, but in reality, I think we are not there yet;
> The escapism of H2, the Houdini of gases, also means that it will probably be more reasonable to put production near consumption:
> ...



There would be no reason a gas turbine couldn't run on H2, you could actually run a car engine on H2, it is just the efficiency of the ice engine is very low compared to an electric motor. That is why they are going the fuel cell way, as for the leakage of the H2, I doubt that would be a huge issue or one that couldn't be minimised. Once it is onboard a truck or train, it will be used at a fairly fast rate anyway, they consume quite a bit of fuel and most that run interstate run nearly 24hrs a day.
It is interesting times, Japan certainly sounds more interested in H2 than batteries, as energy storage. I guess it depends a lot on how many natural resources you have and across how many mediums your fuel has to cover.
Batteries at this point are definitely the way for cars, I'm yet to be convinced on trains, trucks and aeroplanes.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> I mentioned this a while back maybe in another thread but H2 by its nature is very hard to keep, it tends to escape at the first opportunity even thru thin metal etc.




I understand the idea is to store the hydrogen as ammonia and extract it using a special membrane.

https://blog.csiro.au/hyper-for-hydrogen-our-world-first-carbon-free-fuel/


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> I mentioned this a while back maybe in another thread but H2 by its nature is very hard to keep, it tends to escape at the first opportunity even thru thin metal etc.
> I expect it will be much harder to design an H2 chain similar to LPG: with production, train or pipeline, vessels and service stations down to end user vehicle;
> I like the h2/H20 battery cell rechargeable concept for the beauty of the chemistry involved, but in reality, I think we are not there yet;
> The escapism of H2, the Houdini of gases, also means that it will probably be more reasonable to put production near consumption:
> Bye bye Australia as H2 major producer dream....



Large alternators as in Power Station alternators are hydrogen filled, this is done by filling and maintaining pressure in the alternator casing using bottled H2, the bottles are very much like oxygen bottles that welders use for oxy/acetylene welding. The main difference is, they are painted red.
The reason they fill the casing with hydrogen is two fold, the main one is called 'windage' this is the heat caused as the rotor is spinning at 3,000RPM, as hydrogen is much less dense than air the drag caused is much less therefore the heat generated is much less and power loss less.
A 50+ ton rotor spinning at 3,000RPM generates a lot of wind.
Leakage has never been an issue, nor fires.


----------



## qldfrog (31 October 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Large alternators as in Power Station alternators are hydrogen filled, this is done by filling and maintaining pressure in the alternator casing using bottled H2, the bottles are very much like oxygen bottles that welders use for oxy/acetylene welding. The main difference is, they are painted red.
> The reason they fill the casing with hydrogen is two fold, the main one is called 'windage' this is the heat caused as the rotor is spinning at 3,000RPM, as hydrogen is much less dense than air the drag caused is much less therefore the heat generated is much less and power loss less.
> A 50+ ton rotor spinning at 3,000RPM generates a lot of wind.
> Leakage has never been an issue, nor fires.



I would suspect pressure is very low as ideally it should be vacuum?
So not much hydrogen in these alternator.but i could be wrong as i do not know this area.
But ammonia as a transport medium makes sense.


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 October 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Moving more into energy system problem overall, I suspect we will see standard EV a la lithium etc recharged on the grid, but that grid could make nice use of PV and wind , where these green farms could produce H2 when in overproduction mode and just burn the H2 in a turbine the old way during the night or as a way to provide some base production on windless day;
> Is that dreaming or doable @sptrawler or @Smurf1976



Hydrogen as fuel in a gas turbine or for the boiler supplying steam to a steam turbine would be straightforward.

Just needs the right burners, fuel gas flow, air volume etc but that's all doable. Same with any gas - methane (natural gas), propane / butane (LPG), there's some minor use of straight ethane as a fuel in industry, town gas etc all the same concepts. There's at least one steam boiler (for power generation) in Australia that I'm aware of which is fired using carbon monoxide as the fuel - the CO comes from furnaces at the same site.

Hydrogen as fuel in a conventional car engine (that is, one designed for petrol) has been done indeed such a vehicle was entered in Targa Tasmania in 2006. There was no expectation of winning the race with a modified Corolla, the actual winner that year was Jim Richards driving a Porsche 911, but it achieved the aim of proving the concept of hydrogen powered cars in an environment with external scrutiny (ie motorsports) and raising some awareness.

Targa Tasmania is a ~2000 km staged road rally around Tas with competitive sections on closed public roads (and non-competitive sections on roads which remain open to the public between the competitive stages) run annually since 1992.

There was also some development done as part of that on using hydrogen as the fuel in a diesel cycle engine. So hydrogen as the main fuel and diesel as the pilot fuel (for those with some engine knowledge that means there's no spark plugs, a tiny amount of diesel provides the ignition to the gas).

For the record AGL's new Barker Inlet power station near Adelaide, currently in the process of testing following completion of construction, uses this approach but with natural gas as the fuel rather than hydrogen. Same concept however of a diesel cycle engine with gas doing most of the actual work. Similar things exist elsewhere in Australia but on a much smaller scale.

Also some other hydrogen things built on a smaller scale like go carts, postie bikes etc.

Multiple factors coincided to bring the hydrogen stuff to a halt though unfortunately.


----------



## qldfrog (1 November 2019)

So one should wonder why solar farms do not have a small hydrogen plant attached to deliver night power in time for ev charging
On the subject of EV transition and the impact on budget
https://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2019/10/31/electric-vehicles-fuel-excise/


----------



## qldfrog (1 November 2019)

Or just have a couple of these h2 powered plants around to use as load on the network


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> So one should wonder why solar farms do not have a small hydrogen plant attached to deliver night power in time for ev charging



If the aim is to take the solar power, store it and return it for use as electricity then batteries or pumped hydro leave hydrogen for dead so far as efficiency is concerned.

That said, something to be mindful of in all this discussion about electric vehicles or indeed any technical subject is that the most technically efficient process is rarely the most commercially viable one in practice.

There are countless examples of that from computer operating systems through to home entertainment devices to how we move people around cities to aviation to conventional approaches to power generation. The most practical and commercially viable way of doing it isn't the most technically efficient way in virtually all cases.

Be wary of investing in anything where the main or only claim to brilliance is technical efficiency. There are exceptions but in general that alone isn't the route to business success unless every other way of doing it is so inefficient as to be regarded as an actual problem.


----------



## qldfrog (1 November 2019)

I am sure in term of efficiency but right now these farms get deconnected, so efficiency =0; gas turbine exists, we just need somewhere in the grid not too far from the solar farm, to have some water (which can be recycled) and you can produce hydrogen and then burn it at night.should beat any expensive battery scheme, and can be installed without the need of any elevation aka where the farm and windmills are
so instead of 2Billions for hydro II, you need to add an hydrogen hydrolysis plant to an existing gas plant [located in a suitable place..even if that is not a must have; anything can beat the efficiency of disconnecting free power production]


----------



## sptrawler (6 November 2019)

MY next car, put me down for one of these, I'm sold. 

https://www.drive.com.au/news/ford-...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-2
This comment in the article highlights the problem with electric cars at this point, no standard plug, no standard voltage. The voltage is going to be a big issue as amps are function of the voltage in electric cars, the higher the voltage the lower the amps, the lower the heat. 
From the article:
With 800 volts the Mustang Lithium has twice the voltage of most electric cars on the road today. Ford says this allows the system to be “lighter, more powerful and generate less heat, and more electric force than most battery-electric systems”


----------



## SirRumpole (6 November 2019)

sptrawler said:


> MY next car, put me down for one of these, I'm sold.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/ford-...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-2




A pretty good looking beast. Pity it doesn't mention the price...


----------



## SirRumpole (17 November 2019)

Electric vs hydrogen, opinion.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...-who-will-win-the-clean-vehicle-race/11694400


----------



## sptrawler (21 November 2019)

I see Victoria is looking at ways to change taxation on road users, as fuel excise falls, I wonder if there will be a double whammy an increase in rego and no drop in the fuel tax.lol


----------



## Jack Aubrey (21 November 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I see Victoria is looking at ways to change taxation on road users, as fuel excise falls, I wonder if there will be a double whammy an increase in rego and no drop in the fuel tax.lol



Hmm. Fuel excise is a Federal tax and Rego is a State charge.  I suspect there might be a bit of positioning going on.  Wouldn't it be nice if our governments actually worked together on taxes and charges.


----------



## basilio (21 November 2019)

I have been following Alkaline Fuel Cells AFC energy for a number of years. 
Their product is a cheap, robust  alkaline fuel cell that can use second quality hydrogen to produce electricity. 

It is a bit of a holy grail in terms of new renewable energy production.

The last couple of months has seen some excellent progress in terms of commercial product progress. In particular they are selling  a fuel cell that that can generate power to charge electric cars. But there is much more.
The SP for AFC has jumped 400% in the past few weeks

*AFC Energy Set To Launch Hydrogen-Fuelled Electric Vehicle Charger*
https://www.ii.co.uk/news/afc-energ...lectric-vehicle-charger-al1572258720088738300

https://www.ii.co.uk/shares/afc-energy/LSE:AFC/news-and-analysis


----------



## basilio (21 November 2019)

If you want to get* really *excited about electric cars and electric everything check out this story.

*Nikola Corporation to Unveil Game-Changing Battery Cell Technology at Nikola World 2020*
Technology encompasses world’s first free-standing / self-supported electrode with a cathode that has 4x the energy density of lithium-ion

Published November 19, 2019


Technology encompasses world’s first free-standing / self-supported electrode with a cathode that has 4x the energy density of lithium-ion
Achieves 2,000 cycles
*Cell technology expected to cost 50% less to produce than lithium-ion*
Could drive down the cost of hydrogen and *double the range of battery-electric vehicles worldwide*
Nikola will share IP with all other OEM’s around the world that contribute.
https://nikolamotor.com/press_relea...ttery-cell-technology-at-nikola-world-2020-67


----------



## basilio (21 November 2019)

How "real" are Nikola Corporation  claims ? How skeptical should one be ?
Good question.
https://insideevs.com/news/383234/nikola-motors-battery-500-whkg/

Bit more about the company
https://www.trucks.com/2019/02/18/qa-nikola-founder-trevor-milton/


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2019)

Tesla’s shocking futuristic Ute/pickup truck.

At first I was shocked by the design, and thought it must be a joke, but it is growing on me, the stats are amazing, I can see this thing becoming the new version of the Hummer.


----------



## orr (23 November 2019)

Hey VC
Rust never sleeps... Neil Young was on to it. 
Neil at one point was trying to do something impossible to (electrically?) power a Lincoln, looked to me at the time like a perpetual motion project; so he had limits to his knowledge electo chemical psychics...

But those hardened S/Steel panels, errant kangaroos are now not  such a problem.
And this thing can power your country bolt hole. And vise-versa.

Looks like the bastard offspring of drunken night out between a commercial kitchen and a wheelbarrow...
I'm going to call mine K9 after that robot dog from Doctor Who..

The LincVolt... Just googled up again...Gold.


----------



## qldfrog (23 November 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla’s shocking futuristic Ute/pickup truck.
> 
> At first I was shocked by the design, and thought it must be a joke, but it is growing on me, the stats are amazing, I can see this thing becoming the new version of the Hummer.




Hummer with a conscience, do not even think of the actual energy waste of such a beast powered on our grid


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Hummer with a conscience, do not even think of the actual energy waste of such a beast powered on our grid




yeah, any large utility sports vehicle is a waste of energy I guess, But atleast this can be solar powered, so better than the average diesel/petrol models. 

plus it will tow just about anything, has loads of room for tools etc, and a tradies and it’s 200kw hour battery can power a job site, plus it has an air compressor built in.


----------



## satanoperca (23 November 2019)

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...s/news-story/39ec1c38916f747d76533fc5b28962ad


----------



## Boggo (23 November 2019)

Cadogan got a bit of mileage out of it


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2019)

Boggo said:


> Cadogan got a bit of mileage out of it





That guy is a douche.


----------



## Knobby22 (23 November 2019)

Value Collector said:


> That guy is a douche.



Yes, agree.
Don't hit the link and help him make money.


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2019)

Loads of cabin space, 6 seats and enough room for a double bed in the tray, would be great for camping, and you can run lights and cooking appliances etc from the power outlets.


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2019)




----------



## SirRumpole (23 November 2019)

Value Collector said:


> yeah, any large utility sports vehicle is a waste of energy I guess, But atleast this can be solar powered, so better than the average diesel/petrol models.
> 
> plus it will tow just about anything, has loads of room for tools etc, and a tradies and it’s 200kw hour battery can power a job site, plus it has an air compressor built in.




Michalia Cash will be spewing.


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Michalia Cash will be spewing.



Hahaha Aussie weekend is officially saved.

Elon has now flipped the bird at Scomo twice.


----------



## qldfrog (23 November 2019)

Was excellent review.as i said hummer with a conscience.or pretend one.it will be successful


----------



## Humid (24 November 2019)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, the wife and I have 9 bikes, two electric, two mountain bikes(+ a spare) and four hybrids  and that's not including the two segway electric scooters to be able to carry on public transport.
> How are you going with alternative transport?




Benjamin Button...


----------



## sptrawler (24 November 2019)

Humid said:


> Benjamin Button...



I wish , wouldn't it be great to be born old and always get younger, better than the $hit butty we get. 
We are born young, struggle like hell to get ahead and when you save enough money to enjoy life your body it stuffed.


----------



## qldfrog (24 November 2019)

But you would be born wise and end up dumb.
Imagine soon getting a Green membership and waving an extinction rebellion flag in 20y...
Suicide rate would be atrocious


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2019)

The Tesla Cyber Truck has had 146,000 deposits paid in the first 24 hours, which equals $8.2 Billion dollars  of orders for the company, not bad at all.


----------



## Knobby22 (24 November 2019)

Value Collector said:


> The Tesla Cyber Truck has had 146,000 deposits paid in the first 24 hours, which equals $8.2 Billion dollars  of orders for the company, not bad at all.



That's incredible.


----------



## Value Collector (25 November 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> That's incredible.




here is some more interesting facts, I am really starting to think this truck is going to be a winner.


----------



## qldfrog (25 November 2019)

I have no doubt it will
You can be a hummer driver with a conscience
An army of alpha males will line up who could not buy a real tank or hummer due to current public opinion,and  can play mad max to protect the environment ROL
Silicon valley will soon shine in stainless steel
The best selling point is actually its horrible agressive shape, a clear signature yet not a softy look
It is a VERY clever marketing and extremely reasonable pricing.
I want one too
Environmentally, why such a monster and heavy yet
Landrover has used aluminium panels to save weight and energy for years
Ev or not, this is an energy guzzler.


----------



## Value Collector (25 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Ev or not, this is an energy guzzler.




The proposed solar panels on the back may help with that.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> It is a VERY clever marketing and extremely reasonable pricing.
> I want one too
> Environmentally, why such a monster and heavy yet
> Landrover has used aluminium panels to save weight and energy for years
> Ev or not, this is an energy guzzler.



One of the guys at work, a good friend, as hard right as they come. Has a Trump cap.

He loves it. Loves the fact it is stainless and will go faster than the V8 sports car he currently owns. Loves the 70s styling. I bet he buys one when they come to Australia.

The company knows it's market.


----------



## qldfrog (26 November 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> One of the guys at work, a good friend, as hard right as they come. Has a Trump cap.
> 
> He loves it. Loves the fact it is stainless and will go faster than the V8 sports car he currently owns. Loves the 70s styling. I bet he buys one when they come to Australia.
> 
> The company knows it's market.





Knobby22 said:


> The company knows it's market.



 indeed fully agree
 all the tradies around will claim it on their company.by the time they arrive in oz, labour will be in power and give them a gov rebate
Cool.anyone knows about 4wd capabilities?..i mean off road


----------



## Value Collector (26 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> anyone knows about 4wd capabilities?..i mean off road




I haven’t seen them talk about specifics, except to say that you can raise of lower is height using the air suspension depending on whether you want to go off road or sports car mode.


----------



## Knobby22 (26 November 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I haven’t seen them talk about specifics, except to say that you can raise of lower is height using the air suspension depending on whether you want to go off road or sports car mode.




I'm pretty sure all Teslas are all wheel mode. Only way to get the power to the ground.


----------



## Value Collector (26 November 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> I'm pretty sure all Teslas are all wheel mode. Only way to get the power to the ground.




the single motor versions are rear wheel drive.


----------



## qldfrog (26 November 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> I'm pretty sure all Teslas are all wheel mode. Only way to get the power to the ground.



I saw different options/ prices based on number of motors, was more interested in: can this beasty looking box go off road, anyone read an article on snow/sand/mud/dirt test?
sure it will come..but so far do not know if designed for it?


----------



## Value Collector (27 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> I saw different options/ prices based on number of motors, was more interested in: can this beasty looking box go off road, anyone read an article on snow/sand/mud/dirt test?
> sure it will come..but so far do not know if designed for it?




here is an article that talks about what off roading stuff is known at the moment.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...a-cybertruck-electric-pickup-off-roading/amp/


----------



## moXJO (28 November 2019)

Its impractical for a tradie ute. Ok if you're off the tools.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2019)

moXJO said:


> Its impractical for a tradie ute. Ok if you're off the tools.




Why is that?


----------



## Humid (28 November 2019)

Storage for anti theft
Roof racks
No fork lift side access
I’m pretty sure dual cabs were invented for child seats otherwise supervisors can’t take their kids anywhere after hours


----------



## Humid (28 November 2019)

The big car manufacturers will swallow Elon in a heartbeat
Might be electric but fueled by hype


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2019)

Humid said:


> Storage for anti theft




The entire tray is covered by a roller door type door that they are nick naming 'The Vault"



> Roof racks




This is just the Demo proto type, Just like all the other Tesla's I am sure the production model will accommodate roof racks etc.



> No fork lift side access




Is that a requirement for most trades? 

I am sure you could just load from the rear if necessary, but again who know what features the production models will have, they have time to think about it.



> I’m pretty sure dual cabs were invented for child seats otherwise supervisors can’t take their kids anywhere after hours




Again, I am sure there will be other variants than just the dual cab.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2019)

For those concerned about lockable storage.

Watch this video at the 25 second mark, and see the roll down tray cover.


----------



## Humid (28 November 2019)

Value Collector said:


> For those concerned about lockable storage.
> 
> Watch this video at the 25 second mark, and see the roll down tray cover.




Have you ever seen a tradies Ute where there isn’t anything protruding from the tray?
The fact that it tapers to the rear means anything large won’t be accessible 
Supervisor car at best
To get people in your position excited about cars is their greatest asset
Credits to them


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2019)

Humid said:


> Have you ever seen a tradies Ute where there isn’t anything protruding from the tray?
> The fact that it tapers to the rear means anything large won’t be accessible
> Supervisor car at best
> To get people in your position excited about cars is their greatest asset
> Credits to them




As I said production models could come in many variants, and I doubt this is their last pick up truck, this is the one that is designed to blow people away and get people talking, it would be super easy to create different shapes in the future.


----------



## moXJO (28 November 2019)

Humid said:


> Storage for anti theft
> Roof racks
> No fork lift side access
> I’m pretty sure dual cabs were invented for child seats otherwise supervisors can’t take their kids anywhere after hours



All of these and more.
Its a stupid setup from a tradies point of view.


----------



## moXJO (28 November 2019)

Value Collector said:


> The entire tray is covered by a roller door type door that they are nick naming 'The Vault"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They are way off with the design.


----------



## qldfrog (28 November 2019)

If i may add:
In the US or in Europe, all the Australian style tradie ute can not exist as your tray would be emptied as you stop at a red light so you need a cover, then honestly, tesla does not target tradies but silicon valley eco warriors
Especially in the US, F150 and similar utes can carry a miniature house or a small shipping container.this is not the market..
I genuinely think it is perfect marketing and perfect match for the target audience


----------



## qldfrog (28 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> If i may add:
> In the US or in Europe, all the Australian style tradie ute can not exist as your tray would be emptied as you stop at a red light so you need a cover, then honestly, tesla does not target tradies but silicon valley eco warriors
> Especially in the US, F150 and similar utes can carry a miniature house or a small shipping container.this is not the market..
> I genuinely think it is perfect marketing and perfect match for the target audience



Actually not the breaking glass..that is not great marketing..


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2019)

moXJO said:


> They are way off with the design.



Time will tell I guess, but as I said they can easily tinker with design, I don’t think anything you have mentioned is a death blow to the project.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 November 2019)

qldfrog said:


> In the US or in Europe, all the Australian style tradie ute can not exist as your tray would be emptied as you stop at a red light so you need a cover, then honestly, tesla does not target tradies but silicon valley eco warriors



For "real" trades work either a flat tray (cab / chassis) with or without a canopy depending on the nature of the work or a van. If the former isn't an option due to theft risk then that leaves the latter.

A ute as such is as others have said a supervisor's car as it's not overly useful for carting serious amounts of any material or a complete set of tools and equipment, ladders and so on. Even simply having a dual cab with a flat tray greatly reduces usefulness since it necessitates a smaller tray. Works fine though for the boss just dropping off the occasional item to site and otherwise just using it for passenger transport. FWIW I've been a trades work supervisor in a previous job.

As you say though, they're not targeting actual tradies with this and it's good marketing yes. Much like the average SUV marketing hypes up the "offroad" stuff even though the average buyer will never, ever take the car anywhere that a 2WD hatch couldn't safely go.


----------



## moXJO (29 November 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Time will tell I guess, but as I said they can easily tinker with design, I don’t think anything you have mentioned is a death blow to the project.



I don't think tradies are the market for this. Plenty of males that would be excited to own one.


----------



## moXJO (29 November 2019)




----------



## Lantern (29 November 2019)

Will be interesting to see how that roller door tray cover will go after a few months of the Aussie outback red dust.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (3 December 2019)

Not a fan of Mr Musk's Fantasy Tonka Truck - I have a five year old grand nephew who does better car designs - but THIS SITE does have some useful info about real EVs available now or coming to the Australian market.  The Mercs look nice but one or two of my spec stock "investments" would need to payoff.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Time will tell I guess, but as I said they can easily tinker with design, I don’t think anything you have mentioned is a death blow to the project.




Going to trade in your rather bland Model 3 for a Cyber truck VC ?


----------



## qldfrog (3 December 2019)

Bland?Nothing that a few stickers can not fix
https://m.imgur.com/r/teslamotors/f9TkGjy


----------



## SirRumpole (3 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Bland?Nothing that a few stickers can not fix
> https://m.imgur.com/r/teslamotors/f9TkGjy




Great for frightening young children.


----------



## Value Collector (3 December 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> Going to trade in your rather bland Model 3 for a Cyber truck VC ?




Mrs VC said no. 

I actually love the model 3, so I wouldn’t want to get rid of it, but I was going to order the Cyber truck and have both, But Mrs VC doesn’t like the idea of a second car, I trained her to well, she is very frugal.


----------



## Value Collector (3 December 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Mrs VC said no.
> 
> I actually love the model 3, so I wouldn’t want to get rid of it, but I was going to order the Cyber truck and have both, But Mrs VC doesn’t like the idea of a second car, I trained her to well, she is very frugal.




I will definitely test drive one as soon as it’s possible.


----------



## orr (12 December 2019)

I read a day ago LG Chem and GM have announced a Battery build factory to be located in the US.
This is at face value a green field, I'll have to check capacity, but it comes less than a month since Tesla's commitment to battery build factory in Germany/Berlin. 
Who'll deliver first product out the gate?


----------



## Value Collector (13 December 2019)

orr said:


> Who'll deliver first product out the gate?




I don’t think it matters, when Tesla built their first Giga-factory, it became the largest battery factory in the world, and Elon estimated the world would let at least 100 factories this size.

At the announcement he was asked if this factory would make Tesla dominate the battery market.

He said “No, not at all we need 100 of these things, and Tesla can’t build them all, I encourage other companies to start building factories on this scale, because we will need them”


----------



## Jack Aubrey (13 December 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t think it matters, when Tesla built their first Giga-factory, it became the largest battery factory in the world, and Elon estimated the world would let at least 100 factories this size.
> 
> At the announcement he was asked if this factory would make Tesla dominate the battery market.
> 
> He said “No, not at all we need 100 of these things, and Tesla can’t build them all, I encourage other companies to start building factories on this scale, because we will need them”




I posted this on the Lithium thread a couple of weeks ago (info from Benchmark Minerals):

Of the *102* lithium ion battery megafactories in the pipeline up to 2028:

China: 74
USA: 5
EU: 13
Japan: 6
Korea: 2
Thailand 1
Australia 1
India: 0

This week has brought lots of announcements of JVs and strategic partnerships in EV battery metals including this one:




Gangfeng (1772.HK) is the major customer for a couple of domestic rock lithium (spodumene) producers (ASXLS and ASX:AJM).  While Gangfeng's SP has risen 80+% over the past three months, the miners are still at two year lows - along with the lithium price.


----------



## Humid (16 December 2019)

Nissan Leaf 50k
Hyundai Accent 18k 7L/100km
32k worth of Gas
This is where I’m at


----------



## orr (16 December 2019)

Mr Jack i've looked at lithium miners back to when Iggy Tan was looking after Galaxy  maybe  5yrs+. I'm not seeing where there's going to be a supply pinch that'll cause a dramatic shift in the commodity price of traded spodumene.... Happy to hear argument.
Outwardly the parallel is the way oil supply increases when the price allows higher cost extraction 'tight and tighter oil' to be profitable. 
Looks to be the value adding end of the *102 *in the pipeline and their supply contacts and/or vertical integration are the multiple 'baggers'. Information  easily obtained  at right golf and yacht clubs.

@ Humid my business cost of fuel and oil/filters of 60k/kms per year are circa $9.5k. 
A roo proof, dent proof, rust proof , Cybertruck dualmotor optioned for self-driving(please let it happen) I can *Fully* *finance* on half the fuel and oil cost of the Isuzu NLR. And a tad more comfortable ride. 
You can have a guess at where I'm at.


----------



## Humid (16 December 2019)

orr said:


> Mr Jack i've looked at lithium miners back to when Iggy Tan was looking after Galaxy  maybe  5yrs+. I'm not seeing where there's going to be a supply pinch that'll cause a dramatic shift in the commodity price of traded spodumene.... Happy to hear argument.
> Outwardly the parallel is the way oil supply increases when the price allows higher cost extraction 'tight and tighter oil' to be profitable.
> Looks to be the value adding end of the *102 *in the pipeline and their supply contacts and/or vertical integration are the multiple 'baggers'. Information  easily obtained  at right golf and yacht clubs.
> 
> ...




Yeah mate I live in the present


----------



## qldfrog (17 December 2019)

A word of caution
I was reading that articlehttps://thedriven.io/2019/12/15/is-a-diesel-cleaner-than-an-electric-car-in-australia/
The amount of BS and pseudo science is amazing
Comparing apple and orange
Discovering thermal engine release heat duhhh whereas coal power electricity does not...well just maybe he could consider the efficiency of the coal power plant too and the transmission losses and the battery cycle efficiency?
I understand the author wants a specific outcome, but at least a pseudo scientific approach please.
I felt like i was back in a CC debate with @basilio
So has anyone got proper figures in term of CO2 release..as it seems this is the issue, for EV
And anyone including the battery component and life of vehicle aka 500k km diesel vs an EV?
I would be the last to deny EV benefits but that's my problem, on this article as on CC religion, i value science too much to let such BS go unchallenged


----------



## qldfrog (17 December 2019)

Read the readers comments as well at the end.. Does even the choice of a car has to become a religion?


----------



## Junior (17 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Read the readers comments as well at the end.. Does even the choice of a car has to become a religion?




It's infuriating that Energy is seen as political, or religious in any way.....like if you are 'right wing' or conservative, you have to love coal.  Why would you care so much about where your power comes from?  Can't you leave that to the experts?  If you don't care about environmental impact, that's your prerogative...so then what matters?  That it's not too expensive and that the lights come on.  OK....well it doesn't have to be coal to tick those boxes.

Likewise with cars, some people are DESPERATE to criticise EVs.  Like, because it isn't absolutely zero emissions then it's something to be denigrated and written off.  Can't we just determine the facts and judge it on it's merits??  

If an EV drives past, guess what, ZERO emissions will spew out into the atmosphere around you.  Drive through the Burnley tunnel with your windows down, and breathe in!  Then tell me you don't believe EVs aren't important.


----------



## qldfrog (17 December 2019)

Junior said:


> It's infuriating that Energy is seen as political, or religious in any way.....like if you are 'right wing' or conservative, you have to love coal.  Why would you care so much about where your power comes from?  Can't you leave that to the experts?  If you don't care about environmental impact, that's your prerogative...so then what matters?  That it's not too expensive and that the lights come on.  OK....well it doesn't have to be coal to tick those boxes.
> 
> Likewise with cars, some people are DESPERATE to criticise EVs.  Like, because it isn't absolutely zero emissions then it's something to be denigrated and written off.  Can't we just determine the facts and judge it on it's merits??
> 
> If an EV drives past, guess what, ZERO emissions will spew out into the atmosphere around you.  Drive through the Burnley tunnel with your windows down, and breathe in!  Then tell me you don't believe EVs aren't important.



No problem with that Junior but i  drive open roads or at the back of my block, what does matter is the global impact not the local microparticle levels
So why can not this guy do a proper work?
Is that so hard?
And what do you think it tells you when reading such a biased crappy so called report:
What is he hiding?
China favours EV for the reason you state, but overall for the planet i doubt it is that good there...
Yet when living in hk or Shenzhen, you are really thankful.i am.
So exactly what i say: should it be a religion, why can we not use real engineering and science, why do we have to be fed BS after BS just because the aim is a nice one?
On EV, on CC?
It is a very dangerous slide into authoritarianism that many scientists and definitively the media have taken
You remember the saying religion is the opium of the people
Religion was used to control people, avoid revolts and rebellion, in short, probably very good overall
So should we favour obscurantism for the common good?
By many aspect this is what is behind the CC and by extension EV and energy so called debate..i say so called as there is not much debate, just 2 streams of affirmations and fake news each with their lobbies


----------



## qldfrog (17 December 2019)

Junior said:


> Can't we just determine the facts and judge it on it's merits??



Fully agree on this one
Where it does matter is if you start giving subsidies and chose a winner, you want to make sure you are not favoring a wrong option.
Should our tax dollars subsidise EV or a Snowy III, etc
Yes it does matter
You have a taxi, drive inner city: i doubt you can better EV there
You use a ute, and are a farmer..should you buy Elon mad Max truck? I doubt
And a Prius or a Tesla for a suburban mum ?


----------



## Value Collector (17 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Discovering thermal engine release heat duhhh whereas coal power electricity does not...well just maybe he could consider the efficiency of the coal power plant too and the transmission losses and the battery cycle efficiency?




You are right that you have to include the efficiency of the power plant and transmission system when looking at an EV, However you are also forgetting that equivalent things also should be included in Diesel and petrol car calculations.

For example,

If you are going to try to make the EV look less efficient by mentioning energy losses at Coal Power Plants, you should really also be mentioning that Oil Refineries suffer equally huge energy losses, and if you want to include energy losses of the electric transmission grid, you should really also be mentioning the energy losses of transporting the oil and diesel around the globe in tanker ships, trucks and pipes.

Also, people that want to paint EV's as less efficient because of coal plants are not just forgetting to mention their diesel refining and distribution inefficiency, they also are generally ignoring the multiple ways that renewable electricity sources are charging cars, As I have said my car is almost 100% solar powered, this is super low impact, the energy goes straight from my roof and into the car, no transmission losses etc


----------



## moXJO (17 December 2019)

I'd chug about 500km every 2-3 days. Whats it cost in electricity if I charge overnight? 
Whats the wait time on parts if it breaks down?

These are the only things I really give a crap about.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (17 December 2019)

Of course, an economy-wide Carbon Tax would resolve all these issues - and many others - but I would never suggest such a thing.


----------



## Value Collector (17 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> I'd chug about 500km every 2-3 days. Whats it cost in electricity if I charge overnight?
> Whats the wait time on parts if it breaks down? and there is a lot less servicing.
> 
> These are the only things I really give a crap about.




If you are charging from an off peak circuit, your cost will be equivalent to you purchasing petrol at 25 cents per litre.

I guess it depends what breaks, but EV’s have a lot less parts that break down, Tesla is so confident that every car comes with free road side assistance for life, but I wouldn’t be worried about break downs any more than you would be by a petrol car


----------



## Value Collector (17 December 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> Of course, an economy-wide Carbon Tax would resolve all these issues - and many others - but I would never suggest such a thing.




I both hate and like The idea, so many pros and cons


----------



## Value Collector (17 December 2019)

moXJO said:


> I'd chug about 500km every 2-3 days. Whats it cost in electricity if I charge overnight?
> Whats the wait time on parts if it breaks down?
> 
> These are the only things I really give a crap about.




also on top of my answer to you above, AGL have a $1 per day charging plan, unlimited charging for $1 per day.


----------



## qldfrog (17 December 2019)

Jack Aubrey said:


> Of course, an economy-wide Carbon Tax would resolve all these issues - and many others - but I would never suggest such a thing.



True but when both the coalition and labour agreed to do that, it got destroyed by the Greens.
Politics at its worst..well done the Greens...
I will never forget that..
A carbon tax working as the GST AND imposed on *imports* as well is a great way to go toward sustainability, and an indirect way to promote EV when it makes sense


----------



## qldfrog (18 December 2019)

Value Collector said:


> I both hate and like The idea, so many pros and cons



We can all agree the idea is good but the implementation tricky and it can become a huge mess
The first thing not to forget is to impose it on imports as well otherwise we are just dumb


----------



## Junior (18 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> No problem with that Junior but i  drive open roads or at the back of my block, what does matter is the global impact not the local microparticle levels
> So why can not this guy do a proper work?
> Is that so hard?
> And what do you think it tells you when reading such a biased crappy so called report:
> ...




All valid points.  It's not black and white.  As we have both agreed on, there is so much bias in this debate it makes it very hard for the average punter out there to interpret and make an informed decision.

One thing I do believe to be true, is that technology surrounding EVs...ie. battery and charging tech is advancing so rapidly, that at some stage it will be a no-brainer for the majority of Aussies.  Of course, something like Hydrogen powered-vehicles could come in and supersede, which is also great.

Do you remember mini-discs?  They were going to kill CDs, then MP3 players and iPods came in and changed everything.

Likewise for NBN...it was superior tech when it was first announced, now we'll have 5G coming and changing the game.

One thing for sure, internal-combustion vehicles have served us well, but they are on the way out.


----------



## qldfrog (18 December 2019)

Junior said:


> All valid points.  It's not black and white.  As we have both agreed on, there is so much bias in this debate it makes it very hard for the average punter out there to interpret and make an informed decision.
> 
> One thing I do believe to be true, is that technology surrounding EVs...ie. battery and charging tech is advancing so rapidly, that at some stage it will be a no-brainer for the majority of Aussies.  Of course, something like Hydrogen powered-vehicles could come in and supersede, which is also great.
> 
> ...



All in agreement, soon ICE will be the one for specialized useage
We tend to forget that steam engines powered our whole industrial revolution and wind water mill before not to forget horses
Radical changes can and will happen


----------



## tinhat (18 December 2019)

Electric Cars were very popular in the 1890's following the invention of the lead-acid battery. Nice to see them coming back into their own 120 years later now that mass economic production of Lithium-Ion batteries is taking off. Half the value of an EV is currently contained in the battery pack, which by value is mainly nickel. Outside the battery pack you have a fair wack of copper in the motor and wiring. Nickel and copper. The big wave of demand for the metals required (nickel, copper, lithium, cobalt) is going to come over the next couple of decades because these metals will be highly recovered and recycled through the EV lifecycle. It's going to be the projected growth of EV to 50% of all vehicles (from bikes to big trucks) over the next thirty years that is going to drive the next mega-cycle in these metals.


----------



## Jack Aubrey (18 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> All in agreement, soon ICE will be the one for specialized useage
> We tend to forget that steam engines powered our whole industrial revolution and wind water mill before not to forget horses
> Radical changes can and will happen



*“The stone age did not end because the world ran out of stones, and the oil age will not end because we run out of oil.”*


----------



## BlindSquirrel (18 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> True but when both the coalition and labour agreed to do that, it got destroyed by the Greens.
> Politics at its worst..well done the Greens...



If Labour & Coalition both agree on something, Greens never have the numbers to stop it in the senate. Are you sure Libs were on board?


----------



## qldfrog (18 December 2019)

BlindSquirrel said:


> If Labour & Coalition both agree on something, Greens never have the numbers to stop it in the senate. Are you sure Libs were on board?



You see how quickly it was forgotten.
Both labor and coalition had a carbon tax before the election.labor won Abbot took over breaking the bipartisan accord.but labour plus green had the numbers to pass the carbon tax.
Green claimed it was not enough and rejected the deal
Yeap the extinction rebellion and cie
Feel free to check....


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2019)

Junior said:


> All valid points.  It's not black and white.  As we have both agreed on, there is so much bias in this debate it makes it very hard for the average punter out there to interpret and make an informed decision.
> 
> One thing I do believe to be true, is that technology surrounding EVs...ie. battery and charging tech is advancing so rapidly, that at some stage it will be a no-brainer for the majority of Aussies.  Of course, something like Hydrogen powered-vehicles could come in and supersede, which is also great.
> 
> ...




Hydrogen Vechicles are still “Ev’s”, it’s just that the electricity is sourced by passing hydrogen through a fuel cell instead of coming from a battery.

So take the battery out of an Ev, and replace it with a fuel cell and a hydrogen Tank and you have a hydrogen powered car, so the tech is very similar.

the big problem I see is that Hydrogen comes from two main sources.

1, Natrual gas (cheapest)

2, electrolyzing water (expensive)

The natural gas option is still bad for the environment, but if we try to use option 2, we end up wasting a lot more electricity than it would just take to charge batteries, and we are signing up to continue buying stuff from the petrol stations when we could be just charging or battery at home with the solar from our roof.

you could technically make your own hydrogen at home, but it would require all sorts of extra equipment, to electrolyze the water, then compress the gas etc.

I think having the power just go directly to your battery from your roof is much easier.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (18 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> You see how quickly it was forgotten.
> Both labor and coalition had a carbon tax before the election.labor won Abbot took over breaking the bipartisan accord.but labour plus green had the numbers to pass the carbon tax.
> Green claimed it was not enough and rejected the deal
> Yeap the extinction rebellion and cie
> Feel free to check....




Sounds like Tony.


----------



## qldfrog (18 December 2019)

BlindSquirrel said:


> Sounds like Tony.



YES hard to like him, but the fact  is labour plus green had the number to make it happen, and the green defaulted.
The greens are the reason we do not have a carbon tax.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (19 December 2019)

Libs would have repealed it anyway as they did with the one that did get through, though Greens wouldn't have known that at the time. I agree, Greens should have taken what they could get.


----------



## qldfrog (19 December 2019)

BlindSquirrel said:


> Libs would have repealed it anyway as they did with the one that did get through, though Greens wouldn't have known that at the time. I agree, Greens should have taken what they could get.



Please do not rewrite history
Greens could have voted labour proposed carbon tax and it would be legislation then and now


----------



## BlindSquirrel (20 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Please do not rewrite history
> Greens could have voted labour proposed carbon tax and it would be legislation then and now




Not rewriting anything, what happened happened. Whatever carbon-tax legislation that was put into place by Labor was repealed (on the 17th of July 2014) by the next Liberal government.
Abbott was crowing about it, alongside "stopping the boats".
Perhaps if it was put in place earlier (had the Greens done the right thing) then benefits would have had time to show and Libs wouldn't have repealed it, but that's unlikely because they'd already turned it into a nigh-on religious argument.


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2019)

BlindSquirrel said:


> Perhaps if it was put in place earlier (had the Greens done the right thing) then benefits would have had time to show and Libs wouldn't have repealed it, but that's unlikely because they'd already turned it into a nigh-on religious argument.



That is assuming there were any benefits, Australia has gone from one of the cheapest power cost Countries in the first World, to one of the dearest, I struggle to understand how adding another cost to power would have been a benefit.
Maybe it would at a social and moral level, but at an industrial and economic level I think it would have just accelerated the speed of our obvious economic decline.
When there is an agreed universal carbon tax, which I'm sure will have to happen, we no doubt will join in, but to apply a tax on manufacturing that no one else is applying can only end in tears IMO.
Just my opinion.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (20 December 2019)

We're only just now starting to see local microgrids popping up which means that long-range power transmission will no longer be required; all those cables and wires no longer need to be maintained over such a distance.
This is an example of the sort of thing that could have been introduced if there was a stable legislative environment for renewable power, rather than legislating a carbon tax, repealing it, hinting at future legislation, having it quashed by a vocal minority of backbenchers. There is a benefit to being among the first movers into a space and as we're in a country with an abundance of sunlight we should have been right there.


----------



## sptrawler (20 December 2019)

BlindSquirrel said:


> We're only just now starting to see local microgrids popping up which means that long-range power transmission will no longer be required; all those cables and wires no longer need to be maintained over such a distance.
> This is an example of the sort of thing that could have been introduced if there was a stable legislative environment for renewable power, rather than legislating a carbon tax, repealing it, hinting at future legislation, having it quashed by a vocal minority of backbenchers. There is a benefit to being among the first movers into a space and as we're in a country with an abundance of sunlight we should have been right there.



Actually if you read up on the thread on the power system, you will find that the long range transmission system is going to require many billions of dollars spent on it, by the time we change over to renewables.
There is an advantage as you say being first moving into the space, but there is no point getting there and having a completely trashed economy when you arrive, that would actually be the worst outcome as our welfare system would be the first to suffer any cutbacks.
There is a lot of info in the 'future of energy generation and storage' thread, just use the search function, it is a well informed thread.
By the way on a per capita basis, we are leading the World in the uptake of renewables, by a considerable margin.
That is one of the reasons the  electrical distribution system in the Eastern States, is in such a precarious position.


----------



## qldfrog (20 December 2019)

BlindSquirrel said:


> We're only just now starting to see local microgrids popping up which means that long-range power transmission will no longer be required; all those cables and wires no longer need to be maintained over such a distance.
> This is an example of the sort of thing that could have been introduced if there was a stable legislative environment for renewable power, rather than legislating a carbon tax, repealing it, hinting at future legislation, having it quashed by a vocal minority of backbenchers. There is a benefit to being among the first movers into a space and as we're in a country with an abundance of sunlight we should have been right there.



Btw @BlindSquirrel , do not think people like @sptrawler or myself are against renewable, we are just engineers and like facts and sciences to lead decisions and designs, not political bias or heart
If we had more hydro storage capacity, i would vote 100% solar and wind
As is we are not ready and getting the worst of both worlds down South, in qld so far ok with solar


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2019)

The new BMW X3 electric.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/2020-...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-4

Of interest from the article:
BMW says this is the first electric motor to be produced without the need for rear-earth metals.

If they actually mean that they have developed an electric motor suitable for vehicles, that doesn't require rare earth magnets, it could have a dramatic effect on demand for rare earths?


----------



## qldfrog (24 December 2019)

I did a quick google and found this as wellhttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAMegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw140-cHPZEQWblFJfkmnkTw
So be are back to copper, steel, some electronic plus the battery component...can affect a few mine forecasts


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> I did a quick google and found this as wellhttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAMegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw140-cHPZEQWblFJfkmnkTw
> So be are back to copper, steel, some electronic plus the battery component...can affect a few mine forecasts



Excellent article frog, U.K ingenuity coming to the fore again, this will have a massive knock on effect, the patents will want to be tight and another reason Trump needs to get China to tow the line.


----------



## Knobby22 (24 December 2019)

The original Tesla used an induction motor, so I looked this up and the model 3 uses a permanent magnet (to increase efficiency), seems a backward step to me.

Good find guys.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Btw @BlindSquirrel , do not think people like @sptrawler or myself are against renewable, we are just engineers and like facts and sciences to lead decisions and designs, not political bias or heart




I think it’s fair to say that if we compare now with the big environment versus development debates of the past, particularly those relating to energy, then much has changed.

Most engineers these days have at least a reasonable acceptance that the environmental arguments are valid and likewise there’s plenty on the “green” side who’ve come to an understanding as to why great big coal-fired power stations hold such an attraction on the energy supply side. 

In both cases there’s an understanding than the opposing side’s views are held with good reason and that the question is about how to find a mutually workable way forward. A way that doesn’t involve system collapses, either electrical or ecological, and which doesn’t bankrupt society.

As such to the extent there’s a conflict it’s largely a manufactured political one not one that involves real environmentalists or real engineers both of whom have come to accept each other’s point.


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2019)

Spot on smurf, fortunately, I think behind the scenes a lot is happening, but as with everything this big there is a considerable lead time.


----------



## Humid (24 December 2019)

I know the term Engineer gets thrown around pretty loosely these days
Don’t start me on the freshly graduated


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2019)

Another lithium miner facing closure, due to the oversupply in expectation of electric car demand.

https://www.mining.com/nemaska-lithium-goes-bankrup-first-victim-of-market-glut/


----------



## qldfrog (27 December 2019)

Rivian EV truck vs cybertruck...
Imagine the doughnuts with 4 independent motors
Or the results on the highway when one locks


----------



## Value Collector (27 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> Rivian EV truck vs cybertruck...
> Imagine the doughnuts with 4 independent motors
> Or the results on the highway when one locks





That tank turn is pretty awesome.


----------



## qldfrog (27 December 2019)

I can lock all wheels one side on my tractor and this is already cool, so imagine on these trucks
Any independent motor per wheel can do it easily, just a bit worried of the mechanical de-connection between 2 wheels on the same axle  (if there is such a thing anymore in that case)
What happens when anything locks..but if you use this for parking, or show off, it is unbeatable, or even off road going up some very steep rock hill, adjusting heading  by locking more or less one side
Anyway, not sure I will even be able to afford one


----------



## qldfrog (27 December 2019)

Value Collector said:


> That tank turn is pretty awesome.



I believe the Komatsu mining hauling trucks have this facility..for easier handling, but I might be wrong


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 December 2019)

Humid said:


> I know the term Engineer gets thrown around pretty loosely these days



It does but then so do most terms although I do agree that ideally that wouldn't be the case.

For clarity, with reference to my previous post I'm using the term "engineer" to refer to those whose primary concern in regard to the subject is the technical and engineering aspects and I'm using the "environmentalist" tag to refer to those primarily concerned about the environment.

In both cases that includes those who aren't actually engineers or who couldn't really be described as environmentalists but their views align with that group. It's good enough in the context given the apparent lack of a better term to use.


----------



## Value Collector (28 December 2019)

Some one was asking about things that require service in a Tesla, here is the service schedule


----------



## SirRumpole (28 December 2019)

Value Collector said:


> Some one was asking about things that require service in a Tesla, here is the service schedule
> View attachment 99323




So  do you have to take it to a dealer every year for service and if so, how much does it cost ?


----------



## Value Collector (28 December 2019)

SirRumpole said:


> So  do you have to take it to a dealer every year for service and if so, how much does it cost ?




The only annual thing is “clean and lubricate” brake calipers, I am guessing that can be carried out pretty easily by any brake guy for very little, or if you are handy you could probably do it yourself.

But yeah you could take it back to Tesla and they would do it, or they can send out a mobile repairman.


----------



## sptrawler (28 December 2019)

Humid said:


> I know the term Engineer gets thrown around pretty loosely these days
> Don’t start me on the freshly graduated



Very true, so does the term tradesman, builder, etc. Since competence standards have been introduced, just about anything relating to engineering and engineering trades has seen a decline.IMO


----------



## qldfrog (31 December 2019)

https://interestingengineering.com/...vs-are-worse-for-environment-than-diesel-cars
Another unpleasant relative truth
Which will probably offend the facebook sphere
I have not a single doubt that the best for the planet is for me to add 500k kms to my aging but maintained diesel ute instead of buying a cybertruck tomorrow.
Nor do i believe that buying a Tesla in Australia if charging it on the grid is helpful to co2 emission, now or even at any time during the current car life.
We are in an age of pretence, and while i would like an EV for the fun of it all, the technology,etc i dread the time when we will subsidise them for our local council cars recharged each night
In a way, the Chinese way once again makes sense: use them for local urban cleaner air, stop the pretense about saving the world


----------



## tinhat (31 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> https://interestingengineering.com/...vs-are-worse-for-environment-than-diesel-cars
> Another unpleasant relative truth
> Which will probably offend the facebook sphere
> I have not a single doubt that the best for the planet is for me to add 500k kms to my aging but maintained diesel ute instead of buying a cybertruck tomorrow.
> ...




From the article:

"Mazda has based its figures on 2016 European electricity generation averages and together with their *assumption of the energy mix not changing significantly* in the near future, t*heir claims lack any depth and structure*. In-depth studies are needed to make such general statements."

Look, I am probably going to be buying an Asian sardine can to replace an old nissan pulsar in the near future and it is likely going to be a cheap Hyundi i30 or Toyota Yaris or similar ICB petrol. 

I do expect, however, that the next time we renew that car in another ten or fifteen years time (*2030-2035*) that:

1. It will be EV;
I will most likely storing most of the electricity from my own residential PV installation in battery and consuming only renewable electricity; and
 For the sake of all life on the planet, domestic electricity is predominantly generated from renewable sources.
The economics are not there just yet for the above to occur but they are certain to evolve.

Another thing to keep in mind is that most people in the world do not commute the way we do sprawled out in our suburbs. 

Furthermore, technology is going to rapidly revolutionise every aspect of our transportation systems. I have to laugh at the billions of dollars and the massive disruption to local business that the NSW government just wasted on pushing through an old fashioned tram line in Sydney with steel rails on the ground and wires strung from poles overhead. Technology is going to make those rails and wires completely redundant in very short time.


----------



## qldfrog (31 December 2019)

D


tinhat said:


> From the article:
> 
> "Mazda has based its figures on 2016 European electricity generation averages and together with their *assumption of the energy mix not changing significantly* in the near future, t*heir claims lack any depth and structure*. In-depth studies are needed to make such general statements."
> 
> ...



Do not take me wrong fully agree, this is definitely part of the future, but i would like a bit of realism in the black and white statement we are brainwashed with
Ideally i have a small ev car:
I30 size for local commut8ng and shopping recharged on my own solar during the day as i am not working anymore
If on the other end, you are parking daily in the cbd or a train station, want to show off with a big suv suv toorak tractor
And having a suv when you could have a mini will still make it an environmental nightmare electric or not

Stick to diesel and do not pretend to care about the environment
The number of local mums in landcruiser.. petrol...bringing kids to the climate march does not leave much hope for mankind


----------



## qldfrog (31 December 2019)

tinhat said:


> From the article:
> 
> "Mazda has based its figures on 2016 European electricity generation averages and together with their *assumption of the energy mix not changing significantly* in the near future, t*heir claims lack any depth and structure*. In-depth studies are needed to make such general statements."
> 
> ...



About the tram, building tram lines on rail has been obsolete for the last 50y or so in Europe, we are just backward..


----------



## Knobby22 (31 December 2019)

qldfrog said:


> About the tram, building tram lines on rail has been obsolete for the last 50y or so in Europe, we are just backward..



I don't think that is true.
I was in France 8 years ago and they had built tram lines into many of their medium sized cities and banned cars. 

You parked at the edge of the historical precinct in multi story car parks and took a tram into the city. The parking was free if you had a tram ticket. I believe Germany does the same thing. They were recently built.


----------



## sptrawler (31 December 2019)

I was in Okinawa they had a mono rail above the traffic that went about 17klm, brilliant system, I don't know why they don't go that way.
It is a bit expensive, but it is up out of the way and it must make sense in densely populated areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monorail_systems

https://www.visitokinawa.jp/transportation/transportation-in-okinawa/monorail


----------



## tinhat (31 December 2019)

sptrawler said:


> I was in Okinawa they had a mono rail above the traffic that went about 17klm, brilliant system, I don't know why they don't go that way.
> It is a bit expensive, but it is up out of the way and it must make sense in densely populated areas.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monorail_systems
> ...




Oh no! You've invoked the Monorail Song:


----------



## qldfrog (31 December 2019)

Knobby22 said:


> I don't think that is true.
> I was in France 8 years ago and they had built tram lines into many of their medium sized cities and banned cars.
> 
> You parked at the edge of the historical precinct in multi story car parks and took a tram into the city. The parking was free if you had a tram ticket. I believe Germany does the same thing. They were recently built.



Tram *on rail* was the obsolete side:
Unable to brake quickly, unable to avoid even small obstructions, all the new trams i remember seing in europe were on wheels


----------



## qldfrog (31 December 2019)

But obviously did not check all trams


----------



## Value Collector (1 January 2020)

Watch this V8 super car get demolished by this street legal family car,


----------



## tinhat (2 January 2020)

A nice article by my old economics professor in today's paper, in which he reminds us that reducing vehicle emissions is a health issue as well:

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-2020-to-show-leadership-20200101-p53o15.html


----------



## SirRumpole (2 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Watch this V8 super car get demolished by this street legal family car,





Yep, well I'll believe it when an electric car wins the Bathurst 1000. 

How many times will it stop to recharge for 20 mins or so at those speeds ?


----------



## Value Collector (4 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, well I'll believe it when an electric car wins the Bathurst 1000.
> 
> How many times will it stop to recharge for 20 mins or so at those speeds ?




Doesn’t have to win Bathurst to be practical in our real world lives, at the end of the day, as long as you can beat your brother in law 0-100 at the lights, and charge faster than it takes to pee and grab a coffee on a road trip it’s a winner.

this video is really to demonstrate to the petrol heads obsessed with “powerful cars”, that their noisy clunker is nothing compared to the quite good neighbor electric car, when they think of “electric cars” they think their V8 is more powerful and “manly” this just shows they are driving a slower, sub-standard vehicle, and that they have no bragging rights over the more environmentally friendly EV.


----------



## Value Collector (4 January 2020)

tinhat said:


> A nice article by my old economics professor in today's paper, in which he reminds us that reducing vehicle emissions is a health issue as well:
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-2020-to-show-leadership-20200101-p53o15.html




Good article.

While the petrol heads on FB have started a new chant saying “Ev’s need to pay more tax”, the counter argument is “petrol heads need to pay more air pollution health related taxes”


----------



## Humid (5 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Doesn’t have to win Bathurst to be practical in our real world lives, at the end of the day, as long as you can beat your brother in law 0-100 at the lights, and charge faster than it takes to pee and grab a coffee on a road trip it’s a winner.
> 
> this video is really to demonstrate to the petrol heads obsessed with “powerful cars”, that their noisy clunker is nothing compared to the quite good neighbor electric car, when they think of “electric cars” they think their V8 is more powerful and “manly” this just shows they are driving a slower, sub-standard vehicle, and that they have no bragging rights over the more environmentally friendly EV.




Sounds to me that you’re becoming what you’re ridiculing


----------



## sptrawler (5 January 2020)

The other health benefit, that no one has mentioned is, the reduction in I'll health from stopping petrol sniffing.


----------



## qldfrog (5 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The other health benefit, that no one has mentioned is, the reduction in I'll health from stopping petrol sniffing.



They will smoke lithium
You'd be surprised at how imaginative humans can be at destroying themselves


----------



## Value Collector (5 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Sounds to me that you’re becoming what you’re ridiculing




not sure what you mean?

Are you saying I am becoming the EV version of a petrol head? If so, not even close, I enjoy the practical sides of Ev’s and the fact they are better for The environment.

The fact that they are super fast is just a side benefit, because that is normally the first arguement petrol heads use Eg. “Well I wouldn’t buy an EV, I only like fact cars”, when faced with stupid comments like that it’s fun to be able to show them their V8 is a clunker compared to the EV’s.


----------



## Value Collector (5 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The other health benefit, that no one has mentioned is, the reduction in I'll health from stopping petrol sniffing.



A lot of people don’t realize how much petrol fumes They accidental inhale while just filling their tank, it’s quite nasty, and Australian browsers have no inbuilt system to extract the fumes like USA bowsers do.


----------



## Humid (5 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> not sure what you mean?
> 
> Are you saying I am becoming the EV version of a petrol head? If so, not even close, I enjoy the practical sides of Ev’s and the fact they are better for The environment.
> 
> The fact that they are super fast is just a side benefit, because that is normally the first arguement petrol heads use Eg. “Well I wouldn’t buy an EV, I only like fact cars”, when faced with stupid comments like that it’s fun to be able to show them their V8 is a clunker compared to the EV’s.





Value Collector said:


> not sure what you mean?
> 
> Are you saying I am becoming the EV version of a petrol head? If so, not even close, I enjoy the practical sides of Ev’s and the fact they are better for The environment.
> 
> The fact that they are super fast is just a side benefit, because that is normally the first arguement petrol heads use Eg. “Well I wouldn’t buy an EV, I only like fact cars”, when faced with stupid comments like that it’s fun to be able to show them their V8 is a clunker compared to the EV’s.





Value Collector said:


> not sure what you mean?
> 
> Are you saying I am becoming the EV version of a petrol head? If so, not even close, I enjoy the practical sides of Ev’s and the fact they are better for The environment.
> 
> The fact that they are super fast is just a side benefit, because that is normally the first arguement petrol heads use Eg. “Well I wouldn’t buy an EV, I only like fact cars”, when faced with stupid comments like that it’s fun to be able to show them their V8 is a clunker compared to the EV’s.




If you ever get your head around why someone would buy a Harley......I think you will start to understand


----------



## sptrawler (5 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> A lot of people don’t realize how much petrol fumes They accidental inhale while just filling their tank, it’s quite nasty, and Australian browsers have no inbuilt system to extract the fumes like USA bowsers do.



That wasn't exactly what I was getting at, but I guess it will do.


----------



## sptrawler (5 January 2020)

I took the MIL for a test drive of a Toyota C-HR hybrid on the weekend, I must say it was impressive the way the electronics managed the transition from ICE to electric to energy recovery, the transitions were that smooth it was impossible to pick it.
They had a power transfer mimic on the flatscreen display, and watching the power flow while nursing the throttle, couldn't pick up discernible change points, very well sorted out control system. IMO


----------



## Humid (6 January 2020)

Petrol heads get caught hooning a lot of the time due to noise of exhaust and motor
Quiet hooning seems bizarre!
Giving a car that does 0-100 in sub 4 seconds weighing over 2t to a p plater might not be a good idea


----------



## Value Collector (6 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> That wasn't exactly what I was getting at, but I guess it will do.



I know what you were talking about, just pointing out that most of us do it by accident as well which can’t be good.


----------



## Value Collector (6 January 2020)

Humid said:


> If you ever get your head around why someone would buy a Harley......I think you will start to understand



Still not sure how That relates to me, I have never been a car or motorbike guy, and still aren’t, cars in general don’t interest me beyond their practical use.


----------



## Value Collector (6 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Petrol heads get caught hooning a lot of the time due to noise of exhaust and motor
> Quiet hooning seems bizarre!
> Giving a car that does 0-100 in sub 4 seconds weighing over 2t to a p plater might not be a good idea




people who are more about speed, and G force producing acceleration but don’t want to draw unwanted attention love the quietness of the Tesla’s.

listen to this guy who has owned many Ferrari’s talk about how much more he prefers the Tesla’s, this guy literarily spend millions pimping out Ferrari’s over the years, but is now a Tesla fan.


----------



## Humid (6 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Still not sure how That relates to me, I have never been a car or motorbike guy, and still aren’t, cars in general don’t interest me beyond their practical use.




Geez you talk about cars a lot for a bloke who has no interest in cars


----------



## Humid (6 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> people who are more about speed, and G force producing acceleration but don’t want to draw unwanted attention love the quietness of the Tesla’s.
> 
> listen to this guy who has owned many Ferrari’s talk about how much more he prefers the Tesla’s, this guy literarily spend millions pimping out Ferrari’s over the years, but is now a Tesla fan.





Trouble with most who own Ferrari’s can’t drive them or are too scared to nail them due the cost of repairs


----------



## Humid (6 January 2020)

Right on queue
https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...d/news-story/7d98a8cd0b1006b0386892d91964a832


----------



## sptrawler (7 January 2020)

New entrant to the electric car space, Fisker made from recycled products, where possible.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/m...e/news-story/ee94026dcdfc56c66e476c17bdf7814f


----------



## sptrawler (7 January 2020)

There is a lot of consolidation going on in the auto space, with the advent of the electric car.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/volvo...g-joint-engine-development-report-123047.html

From the article:
Engine co-development between Daimler and Volvo could start as early as March this year, when Volvo is set to merge its drivetrain operations with Geely's.

Geely and Daimler have a complicated relationship. In 2018, Geely founder and chairman Li Shufu bought a nearly 10 per cent stake in Daimler, making him the largest individual shareholder in the German automaker.

Daimler already has an existing relationship with BAIC, which is its 50/50 joint venture partner in China.

Since Geely effectively became a major stakeholder in Daimler, the two companies have embarked on a number of joint-venture projects, including a ride-hailing service in China.


----------



## Value Collector (7 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Geez you talk about cars a lot for a bloke who has no interest in cars




Nope, I don’t talk about “cars” other than electric cars, and that’s not because I am a car guy, I am just interested in the disruptive nature of the new tech, and the fact that I see it as being so much more practical from a utility side of things and environmental.

What I mean is I probably talk about electric cars the same amount as I talk about solar panels and battery storage and that sort of thing.

Think about it, except for electric cars, have you every seen me talk about any other car or motor bike? Nope.

And when I talk about my electric car, have you ever heard me talk about it in any other way than except to explain the practical sides of it or to try and correct misinformed opinions? Nope.


----------



## Value Collector (7 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Trouble with most who own Ferrari’s can’t drive them or are too scared to nail them due the cost of repairs




did you watch the video? This guy used to drive them till they blew up, and used to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars pimping out the engines and making them into super powerful cars and then flog them to death.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> not sure what you mean?
> 
> Are you saying I am becoming the EV version of a petrol head? If so, not even close, I enjoy the practical sides of Ev’s and the fact they are better for The environment.
> 
> The fact that they are super fast is just a side benefit, because that is normally the first arguement petrol heads use Eg. “Well I wouldn’t buy an EV, I only like fact cars”, when faced with stupid comments like that it’s fun to be able to show them their V8 is a clunker compared to the EV’s.




I doubt if the bogans will switch to EV's no matter how fast they are.

There is no "pose" value in an EV. No noise, therefore no "listen to me" value.

But that's their problem. People who only buy cars to show off have an intelligence deficit.


----------



## basilio (7 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if the bogans will switch to EV's no matter how fast they are.
> 
> There is no "pose" value in an EV. No noise, therefore no "listen to me" value.
> 
> But that's their problem. People who only buy cars to show off have an intelligence deficit.




Maybe , maybe not..
I'm pretty sure you can set up "noises" for electric cars to mimic  a car engine.
And frankly I suggest many, many car purchases have a "show off" element. It goes from outright elitism at the top end, quirky vehicles that are special to avoidance of daggy cars.  I suggest most cars are sold on style as much as substance.
https://newatlas.com/soundracer-ev-engine-sound-eveess/54140/


----------



## Humid (7 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Nope, I don’t talk about “cars” other than electric cars, and that’s not because I am a car guy, I am just interested in the disruptive nature of the new tech, and the fact that I see it as being so much more practical from a utility side of things and environmental.
> 
> What I mean is I probably talk about electric cars the same amount as I talk about solar panels and battery storage and that sort of thing.
> 
> ...




Except beating your brother in-law at lights.....


----------



## Humid (7 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if the bogans will switch to EV's no matter how fast they are.
> 
> There is no "pose" value in an EV. No noise, therefore no "listen to me" value.
> 
> But that's their problem. People who only buy cars to show off have an intelligence deficit.




I don’t think you’ll have much choice eventually but I do think the purple rinse set on here are ignorant enough to confuse car enthusiasts to bogans and live in $hit suburbs full of them


----------



## qldfrog (7 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if the bogans will switch to EV's no matter how fast they are.
> 
> There is no "pose" value in an EV. No noise, therefore no "listen to me" value.
> 
> But that's their problem. People who only buy cars to show off have an intelligence deficit.



@SirRumpole: 
existing ICE on high end cars already use fake sounds, so no surprise it is already here;
I am always surprised Sir by your optimistic view of mankind.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 January 2020)

Humid said:


> I don’t think you’ll have much choice eventually but I do think the purple rinse set on here are ignorant enough to confuse car enthusiasts to bogans and live in $hit suburbs full of them




There is no confusion, there are enthusiasts and bogans, two generally  separate groups but there could be overlaps.

Enthusiasts usually keep their cars well maintained in original condition and take them out for quiet Sunday drives without annoying people. 

Bogans bolt on all sorts of modifications that make the loudest noise (audially and visually) and show these off to as many people as they can (mainly of the young female variety).

Which one are you ?


----------



## Humid (7 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> There is no confusion, there are enthusiasts and bogans, two generally  separate groups but there could be overlaps.
> 
> Enthusiasts usually keep their cars well maintained in original condition and take them out for quiet Sunday drives without annoying people.
> 
> ...



Overlapped


----------



## qldfrog (7 January 2020)

N


SirRumpole said:


> There is no confusion, there are enthusiasts and bogans, two generally  separate groups but there could be overlaps.
> 
> Enthusiasts usually keep their cars well maintained in original condition and take them out for quiet Sunday drives without annoying people.
> 
> ...



Neither, i sold my MGB 66 after my 31rst birthday, 
I bought it at my prematured 40s crisis..but my better half turned blond so i could be excused
Since utilitarian car and a jewel  toy for thr lady mx5
What do you drive SirRumpole
Planning switch to EV?


----------



## SirRumpole (7 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> N
> 
> Neither, i sold my MGB 66 after my 31rst birthday,
> I bought it at my prematured 40s crisis..but my better half turned blond so i could be excused
> ...




Diesel Hyundai.

EV ? Not yet. Living in the bush there aren't a lot of charging stations out here.

I would consider a hybrid though.


----------



## sptrawler (7 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> N
> 
> Neither, i sold my MGB 66 after my 31rst birthday,
> I bought it at my prematured 40s crisis..but my better half turned blond so i could be excused
> ...



MGB pommie $hit, my older brother had one, we beat the local yokels at Kwinana at pool and they chased us down the road throwing cans of beer at us, the piece of crap MGB couldn't get away from a slant six Valiant ute.
Austin 1800 motor with twin SU's, the reason England became not Great.


----------



## sptrawler (7 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Diesel Hyundai.
> 
> EV ? Not yet. Living in the bush there aren't a lot of charging stations out here.
> 
> I would consider a hybrid though.



Great pick IMO Rumpy, I recently had to replace the car for the daughter that lives with us, after looking around settled on a 209 Hyundia i30, well put together well sorted out car.
The newer cars I would expect to be better, I'm a hands on car person and IMO I'm impressed.
What I thought from driving the C-HR Toyota, was it had a brilliant energy transfer system, but it was working the battery hard.
Therefore the warranty on the battery would need to be good, as hybrids have a small battery.
Just my opinion. 

With regard Hybrid, I would say Rumpy, they have come a long way.
They are still a bit pricey, but if you are looking to replace the diesel, give a few of the hybrids a run they are impressive.
But check battery warranty and battery material, some are still using nickel metal/hydride.


----------



## qldfrog (7 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> MGB pommie $hit, my older brother had one, we beat the local yokels at Kwinana at pool and they chased us down the road throwing cans of beer at us, the piece of crap MGB couldn't get away from a slant six Valiant ute.
> Austin 1800 motor with twin SU's, the reason England became not Great.



Mgb add class and charm.spoke wheels, luggage carrier, but indeed the english engineering was NOT impressive, nor the absence of synchro on speed change,the 6V batteries, or the roof taking 10 minute under the storm to be setup..
But it was an antique and i i w a bit sad yo let it go..but felt safer after
These cars would be fun to convert as EV, and while purists might cry, there is not much to miss inside


----------



## sptrawler (7 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Mgb add class and charm.spoke wheels, luggage carrier, but indeed the english engineering was NOT impressive, nor the absence of synchro on speed change,the 6V batteries, or the roof taking 10 minute under the storm to be setup..
> But it was an antique and i i w a bit sad yo let it go..but felt safer after
> These cars would be fun to convert as EV, and while purists might cry, there is not much to miss inside



Too much $hit metal, they were a rust magnet.
I rebuilt the engine, rebuilt the gear box, the body was just $hit.
The really sad part was, it was my older brothers car, back then I lived to pull engines, gearboxes and vehicles apart, funny how life changes.
By the way my car was a Mini Cooper S 1275, which I did the same to and it had the same problem $hit metal in the body. lol
The Honda Civic 1973, overhead cam, four main bearings , as opposed to the mini's three, made it a better car and as time has proven we really do have a problem with accepting reality.


----------



## Value Collector (8 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Except beating your brother in-law at lights.....



Read that statement again in context,

I have never raced my brother in-law, or even been at the same set of traffic lights with him, and he has never even seen my car.

that was simply a hypothetical statement to point out that none of us need a Bathurst winning car with pit stop style refilling, even if you are a person that likes to race around town and drag people at the lights etc.

I was simply saying that a car that is quick enough to beat most petrol cars at the lights and recharged faster that it takes to takes fill the petrol car and take a pee, will out perform the petrol cars in any real world situation we will be faced with.


----------



## Humid (8 January 2020)

The thing I don’t get is the hype


Value Collector said:


> Read that statement again in context,
> 
> I have never raced my brother in-law, or even been at the same set of traffic lights with him, and he has never even seen my car.
> 
> ...


----------



## Humid (8 January 2020)

Seriously electric motors have been around longer than ic engines
Only thing new is battery tech which is hard for me to get excited about at the end of the day it’s just another car.

But it’s good to see guys getting into cars later in life
Good on ya mate!
Your  wunov us


----------



## Value Collector (8 January 2020)

Humid said:


> The thing I don’t get is the hype




hype?


----------



## Value Collector (8 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Seriously electric motors have been around longer than ic engines
> Only thing new is battery tech which is hard for me to get excited about at the end of the day it’s just another car.
> 
> But it’s good to see guys getting into cars later in life
> ...




so the idea of being able to charge from your home solar panels isn’t something you find awesome? I sure do.

As I said it’s all about practicality for.

1, not having to visit service stations all the time.
2, self drive functions.
3, low maintenance 

And many more features just make it a good car to own, it’s not about the actual car for me.

I am not that much “later in life” I am only 37.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> so the idea of being able to charge from your home solar panels isn’t something you find awesome? I sure do.
> 
> As I said it’s all about practicality for.
> 
> ...




Have you actually used "self drive" ?

How did it go ?


----------



## Humid (8 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> so the idea of being able to charge from your home solar panels isn’t something you find awesome? I sure do.
> 
> As I said it’s all about practicality for.
> 
> ...




So where in the future do I get a late night pie


----------



## Humid (8 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> so the idea of being able to charge from your home solar panels isn’t something you find awesome? I sure do.
> 
> As I said it’s all about practicality for.
> 
> ...



37 ....some are late bloomers


----------



## moXJO (8 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> so the idea of being able to charge from your home solar panels isn’t something you find awesome? I sure do.
> 
> As I said it’s all about practicality for.
> 
> ...



I do like the idea of charging at the shops and not paying for petrol.


----------



## Value Collector (9 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Have you actually used "self drive" ?
> 
> How did it go ?




yeah, all the time.

I drove Brisbane to Sydney with it on autopilot for probably 90% of the journey, it makes the journey so much more relaxing.

Also it’s great when you are stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, you just put autopilot on and let the car deal with the stop start traffic.


----------



## Value Collector (9 January 2020)

Humid said:


> So where in the future do I get a late night pie




sorry, you lost me again, what are you talking about?


----------



## Value Collector (9 January 2020)

moXJO said:


> I do like the idea of charging at the shops and not paying for petrol.



Charging in your garage from your solar is even better.


----------



## qldfrog (9 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Charging in your garage from your solar is even better.



Agree, that is the only way here where your EV is green otherwise it will belch out more co2 per km than a Commodore


----------



## Humid (9 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> sorry, you lost me again, what are you talking about?




Jesus mate I’ll type slower
If the need for servos goes so do the jobs of console operators and the late night pie


----------



## Humid (9 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> yeah, all the time.
> 
> I drove Brisbane to Sydney with it on autopilot for probably 90% of the journey, it makes the journey so much more relaxing.
> 
> Also it’s great when you are stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, you just put autopilot on and let the car deal with the stop start traffic.




I use Qantas


----------



## sptrawler (9 January 2020)

Sony have developed an E.V, music to our ears, so to speak.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/sony-...e=smh&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=tile-1


----------



## Dona Ferentes (9 January 2020)

> In 2035 and 2050 respectively, we now see the lowest plausible rate of EV penetration in the light vehicle fleet (i.e. vehicles on the road) as 7 per cent (previously 5 per cent) and 27 per cent (previously 21 per cent). We see the highest plausible penetration rates at these two points as 36% and 75%.





> The associated share of light vehicles sales in those years are 16% (previously 10 per cent) and 47% (previously 35 per cent) in the low case and 73% and 100% in the high case. To convert those market shares into auto units, in the low case we envisage there will be 132 million EVs on the road in 2035 and 561 million at mid-century.....



(May 2019) .. 
https://www.bhp.com/media-and-insig...the-electrification-of-transport-episode-one/

and a subsequent one on buses and trucks (Nov 2019) outlining different challenges







> basic reason for the very different rates of electrification envisaged for trucks and buses is the minimum performance needs of the two segments. Simply put, buses demand far less of their powertrain than do trucks. First generation EV battery chemistries such as LFP (Lithium–Iron–Phosphate) are quite serviceable as a workhouse technology for buses. They are also safe and cheap.





> Long haul trucking is a far more demanding proposition. Carrying a heavy payload, at motorway speeds, for extended ranges, with little commercial appetite for extended downtime while charging, at a competitive total–cost–of–ownership, is a steep ask of an EV powertrain based on current and even projected technology



https://www.bhp.com/media-and-insig...e-electrification-of-transport-episode-three/


----------



## Value Collector (10 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Jesus mate I’ll type slower
> If the need for servos goes so do the jobs of console operators and the late night pie




I use one of the multiple other fast food operations that are now open 24hrs.

But if there is a need for 24hr convenience stores they will still exist regardless.


----------



## Value Collector (10 January 2020)

Humid said:


> I use Qantas




good for you, but I generally travel with pets, and enjoy the freedom of having my own car at the other end. 

but, please continue using Sydney airport, as I enjoy my SYD dividends.


----------



## Value Collector (10 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Agree, that is the only way here where your EV is green otherwise it will belch out more co2 per km than a Commodore




Actually that’s not even close to being correct.


----------



## Humid (10 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> good for you, but I generally travel with pets, and enjoy the freedom of having my own car at the other end.
> 
> but, please continue using Sydney airport, as I enjoy my SYD dividends.




I travel with animals too
They're usually wearing Hi vis clothing


----------



## Humid (10 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I use one of the multiple other fast food operations that are now open 24hrs.
> 
> But if there is a need for 24hr convenience stores they will still exist regardless.




Yeah nah  the petrol floats them
They wouldn't survive in Perth
I'm talking suburbs


----------



## qldfrog (10 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Actually that’s not even close to being correct.




I know we are not really good at any sensible argument so i will pass but you will explain me how you can power an ev with all the loss along the way from the dirtiest energy in term of co2 and produce less co2 than an ice on petrol....
Just pure common sense and basic technology knowledge no need of guardian link please
I posted a link a while back about this on this very thread
Reality does not need to be modified: ev are attractive, will be a good solution when powered on solar or wind, can be today if you are indeed on solar and i aim toward that way
But Jesus this is not a CC forum, we can be sensible and not evangelistic
i learnt one think in life, there is no black and white options
I will even err to say that the more ev, the more power need when commuters are back from work in the evening and the more coal or maybe NG if we have some left will be burnt


----------



## qldfrog (10 January 2020)

Typical thermal *efficiency* for utility-scale electrical generators is around 37% for *coal* and oil-*fired plants*, and 56 – 60% (LEV) for combined-cycle gas-*fired plants*. So 40pc average
@Smurf1976  can give us real figures i am sure
10 pc loss transmission and transformers
*Battery Charge/discharge efficiency* 80–90%[5]
So 15pc loss
Then high efficiency of motor:85pc to 90pc lets say 85pc realistic
I forget the battery weight issue, we were talking commodore so basically both monster, better buy an i20 but that is not the point

Ice modern efficiency 25 to 35%

For 100 energy coal or oil
So ev will get get
100x0.4x0.9x0.85 equal 31pc or a bit below...
And guess what.....that is the ice performance
I blame the education system here
I do not consider the battery production , the replace after 10y and the average weight carried fpr fuel in both cases which would sink EV
So charge on solar, all good
..probably otherwise, the green equivalent of the Bentley


----------



## qldfrog (10 January 2020)

Sorry to spoil the party.not ready yet here


----------



## qldfrog (10 January 2020)

And apologies for the awful spelling, was on mobile


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Typical thermal *efficiency* for utility-scale electrical generators is around 37% for *coal* and oil-*fired plants*, and 56 – 60% (LEV) for combined-cycle gas-*fired plants*. So 40pc average
> @Smurf1976 can give us real figures i am sure




For plant of any significant scale, that is actual power stations, in main grids in Australia the range is about 57% down to barely above 20%.

In practice though the vast majority is in the 28% - 50% range. There's not much outside that.

No comment as to the plant name or owner of those at the extremes.


----------



## qldfrog (10 January 2020)

And last one, if you use a diesel
Engines in large diesel trucks, buses, and newer diesel cars can achieve peak efficiencies around 45%.[6]
So much better than a telsa car/truck in term of co2


----------



## qldfrog (10 January 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> For plant of any significant scale, that is actual power stations, in main grids in Australia the range is about 57% down to barely above 20%.
> 
> In practice though the vast majority is in the 28% - 50% range. There's not much outside that.
> 
> No comment as to the plant name or owner of those at the extremes.



Thank Smurf for the figure validation on power plant efficiency, i do not want to involve you in the whole argument.but my 0.4 figure is relevant ..can be better can be worse but in the ballpoint
Soon i will be labelled a petrol head..which i am not but....
I like truth too much for my own good..or wealth...


----------



## qldfrog (10 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> And last one, if you use a diesel
> Engines in large diesel trucks, buses, and newer diesel cars can achieve peak efficiencies around 45%.[6]
> So much better than a telsa car/truck in term of co2



Talking only for australia, nz for example would be radically different, or tasmania...


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Thank Smurf for the figure validation on power plant efficiency, i do not want to involve you in the whole argument



I’ll keep out of the argument

If you wanted a more direct comparison with diesel though well AGL have publicly disclosed the details of equipment installed at their new Barker Inlet facility and the manufacturer’s data states 46%. 

That’s running either straight diesel or gas with diesel pilot (so mostly gas). In practice the intent is to run gas mostly.

In practice what’s actually achieved will depend on operating conditions and so on.


----------



## basilio (10 January 2020)

It would be great if electric cars were powered  solely by renewable energy now. But that is changing rapidly and will continue to do so. 
One point worth making is that in theory much of an electric cars charging will be done overnight when  normal electricity  demand is low and in fact there is a surplus of power. Generators aren't turned off so actually using off peak load makes sense.
Electric cars don't contribute to additional direct air pollution. If they are being charged off coal fired power then the additional CO2 would be relatively insignificant again particularly if it is off peak power.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 January 2020)

basilio said:


> One point worth making is that in theory much of an electric cars charging will be done overnight when  normal electricity  demand is low and in fact there is a surplus of power. Generators aren't turned off so actually using off peak load makes sense.
> Electric cars don't contribute to additional direct air pollution. If they are being charged off coal fired power then the additional CO2 would be relatively insignificant again particularly if it is off peak power.



I'm keeping out of the debate because I see too much ideology surrounding all this at present (everywhere, not specifically referring to ASF in saying that) but I'll note that there also other practical benefits which I'll illustrate by pointing out that nobody's firing missiles at the Latrobe Valley.

If there's one good thing about coal it's that there's lots of it and it's widely dispersed geographically. Even in purely Australian terms, Sydney and Hobart have both mined coal in the urban area in the past and there are known deposits around Brisbane, Melbourne and Adelaide too. Go further afield and there's lots of it.

That's not to say that we should necessarily charge EV's using coal but it doesn't lead to wars that's one good thing about it.


----------



## qldfrog (11 January 2020)

basilio said:


> It would be great if electric cars were powered  solely by renewable energy now. But that is changing rapidly and will continue to do so.
> One point worth making is that in theory much of an electric cars charging will be done overnight when  normal electricity  demand is low and in fact there is a surplus of power. Generators aren't turned off so actually using off peak load makes sense.
> Electric cars don't contribute to additional direct air pollution. If they are being charged off coal fired power then the additional CO2 would be relatively insignificant again particularly if it is off peak power.



@basilio, i will switch off the ignore button and try to have a logical exchange
EV are great
Truly
But my point is in Australia except Tasmania, an EV owner is producing more CO2 than an ICE owner today, unless charging on green energy.
If you charge on the grid, you produce more co2..out there and your pollution is just transposed
I lived in Shenzhen and EV  there are a godsend as air pollution is minimal compared to Beijing.
Less particle, noise ..fabulous
But still producing more co2 for the planet
I also invite you to follow extremely informative threads on energy production here on ASF and understand that today, offpeak night charge is actually the worst time in term of generation, it is a very obsolete idea
Nowadays, with solar farms, we want power to be used around lunchtime not midnight, power is free then,$0
So none of these arguments stand in front of: in mainland australia, unless you charge on green energy..yours or purchased, you generate more co2 than an ICE equivalent.
Nothing to be proud of, will hopefully change in the future with snowy 2 scheme etc
But a fact
Why are people afraid of facts?
And imagine if i include the battery  co2  released during production...


----------



## Value Collector (11 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I know we are not really good at any sensible argument so i will pass but you will explain me how you can power an ev with all the loss along the way from the dirtiest energy in term of co2 and produce less co2 than an ice on petrol....
> Just pure common sense and basic technology knowledge no need of guardian link please
> I posted a link a while back about this on this very thread
> Reality does not need to be modified: ev are attractive, will be a good solution when powered on solar or wind, can be today if you are indeed on solar and i aim toward that way
> ...




I have already explained it.

EVs use a mixture of clean and dirty fuels where as petrol/diesel use pretty much 100% dirty fuels, so the EV’s have a head start due to fuel mix.

Then once the energy reaches the car the EV uses it a lot more efficiently.

As stated before, energy losses in electric generation and distribution exist, but so do energy losses in transport and refining of oil, not to mention that some electric generation is done right where the batteries are charged.


----------



## Value Collector (11 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Ice modern efficiency 25 to 35%




That’s only the efficiency of the car itself, what % of a barrel of oil makes it to the car.

You aren’t factoring in the energy losses pumping the oil from the ground, shipping it across an ocean, refining that barrel of oil, trucking/shipping it again to a servo possibly 1000’s of kilometers away, then Pumping it out the ground again while the servo is lit up like Las Vegas.


----------



## Value Collector (11 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Yeah nah  the petrol floats them
> They wouldn't survive in Perth
> I'm talking suburbs




My first job when I left school was at a servo, and it was the store that kept it alive.

The owner used to say all the time that the petrol was just to help get people in the door to sell cigarettes, chocolate bars etc.

I remember selling fuel at a 2cent mark up and working out we would have to sell 600liters an hour just to cover my wage.

there is a reason station attendants are told to try and up sell you to buy a chocolate bar or gaterade.


----------



## qldfrog (11 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> That’s only the efficiency of the car itself, what % of a barrel of oil makes it to the car.
> 
> You aren’t factoring in the energy losses pumping the oil from the ground, shipping it across an ocean, refining that barrel of oil, trucking/shipping it again to a servo possibly 1000’s of kilometers away, then Pumping it out the ground again while the servo is lit up like Las Vegas.



VC so the coal you burn to charge was under your charger, or the gas imported from the US as we sold ours?
Did you even realised i gave you your 10y livetime battery for free, all the nickel just magically appearing
That is in itself enough to match co2 emissions of s small microcar
You are in denial, do not have any sensible match to figures(facts)
And so happy co2 belching drive
And you might even vote green..get a calculator and some facts


----------



## qldfrog (11 January 2020)

What does it have to be an argument to provide figures and facts to dummies
The age of the intellect selfies


----------



## basilio (11 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Did you even realised i gave you your 10y livetime battery for free, all the nickel just magically appearing
> That is in itself enough to match co2 emissions of s small microcar




QF where do ever come up with the "figures" that justify your views ? Can you  show us the justifications for your argument ?


----------



## Humid (11 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> My first job when I left school was at a servo, and it was the store that kept it alive.
> 
> The owner used to say all the time that the petrol was just to help get people in the door to sell cigarettes, chocolate bars etc.
> 
> ...




Hahaha “the owner of a petrol station”
Things have changed mate
At that time there was probably a mechanic there too lol
Not sure where you live but I can’t say I’ve met a servo owner for a while


----------



## Value Collector (11 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Hahaha “the owner of a petrol station”
> Things have changed mate
> At that time there was probably a mechanic there too lol
> Not sure where you live but I can’t say I’ve met a servo owner for a while




it was 2000, at the time in Qld lots of ampol/caltex were privately owned “distributorships”, I don’t know if they still operate this way.

However, the constant up selling pretty much every servo does to this day tells me things haven’t changed much, and the margins on fuel wafer thin at the retail end.


----------



## Value Collector (11 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> VC so the coal you burn to charge was under your charger




You factored in distribution losses already in regards to the ev.

Your model is basically comparing the worst case scenario Eg. 100% coal vs petrol that magically appears at the car with no prior energy losses.

You are ignoring the fact that

1. a large chunk of each barrel of oil is lost in the making of the petrol/diesel components.

2. refining that petrol/diesel requires about 1Kwh of electricity per liter of petrol produced, and that electricity itself could be used to charge cars.

3, worst case scenario 100% coal doesn’t exist in any state of Australia, all states have a mix of renewables, gas and coal.


----------



## Humid (11 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> it was 2000, at the time in Qld lots of ampol/caltex were privately owned “distributorships”, I don’t know if they still operate this way.
> 
> However, the constant up selling pretty much every servo does to his day tells me things haven’t changed much, and the margins on fuel wafer thin at the retail end.




Fuel is about 85% of there revenue
Maybe they will turn into big battery banks with access to cheap power and flog it to the pointy heads in their electric cars with fast charging options
The servos are on good real estate regardless of the outcome
Hopefully they still sell pies


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## Smurf1976 (11 January 2020)

I’m keeping out of the debate for the reasons I’ve stated, too much ideology, but I’ll note that a similar argument applies elsewhere too.

For example gas versus electric hot water. If the electricity comes from fossil fuels, and the water heater is not a heat pump, well then gas wins for efficiency and emissions.

If there’s to be any shift to sustainability however well then we’re shifting to electricity from renewables not fossil gas.

Therein lies the dilemma - short term versus long term and it’s the same no matter what the end use is (hot water, heating buildings, cooking, transport, anything) apart from those where due to efficiency benefits electricity always clearly wins.

In Australia we’ve got both extremes and a ship sailing between them.

On one end there’s Victoria with the highest market penetration of reticulated gas anywhere on earth (that claim’s a few years old but probably nobody’s beaten it).

On the other end there’s Tasmania. 94% of homes with electric hot water, 90% with electric cooktops, almost 100% electric market share for ovens and two thirds electric share for residential heating with the rest mostly wood (and over 90% share for commercial). Add in the reality that 60% of electricity consumption is going into heavy industry and it’s among the most electrified economies on the planet.

Now which is more sustainable?

Well the Longford gas plant (Vic) and the Devils Gate power station (Tas) both opened within months of each other. Reality today is that one’s almost out of gas, literally so, and the other’s humming along and will be for a very long time yet. Devils Gate isn’t cooking the planet either despite its name.

Obviously that can be extremely different depending on the means of generating the electricity but so long as it’s renewable then it’s inherently more sustainable than continuously taking fuel out of the ground.

That remains so even if the renewable energy itself has an environmental impact, and it invariably does impact something somehow, but it’s still more sustainable as such. Doesn’t run out, doesn’t warm the planet to any major extent, doesn’t start wars and whatever damage it does cause is mostly reversible in practice within a relatively shor time.

So there’s a major long term versus short term aspect to all this.

Short term, depending on circumstances, diesel might win. It depends.

Long term, well as per the old advertising “the future is electric”.


----------



## Value Collector (11 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Fuel is about 85% of there revenue




revenue and profit are two different things.


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## Humid (11 January 2020)

One day you’ll understand cashflow


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## Value Collector (11 January 2020)

Humid said:


> One day you’ll understand cashflow




I do.


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## Humid (11 January 2020)

Let's use Costco for an example lol


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## SirRumpole (11 January 2020)

This will be the big battle in the EV market in the future I reckon.

Batteries vs Hydrogen Fuel Cells.


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## qldfrog (11 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> This will be the big battle in the EV market in the future I reckon.
> 
> Batteries vs Hydrogen Fuel Cells.




and as discussed before , it is actually a battle of centralised toward..potentially..decentralised source of energy; governments and corporates would probably prefer hydrogen fuel for that reason..
The best would be an hydrogen battery..noting impossible in the concept but probably need mechanical compression so not realistic


----------



## Value Collector (11 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Let's use Costco for an example lol



Completely different model, they make money selling memberships.

but anyway, this is off topic.


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## basilio (11 January 2020)

Bit of fun with electric cars.


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## Humid (11 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Completely different model, they make money selling memberships.
> 
> but anyway, this is off topic.



What and Woolworths and Coles don't
Try going outside more and have a look around


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## Humid (11 January 2020)

And BP with Virgin
The list goes on


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## Humid (11 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Completely different model, they make money selling memberships.
> 
> but anyway, this is off topic.




Off topic is about the only thing you got right


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## Smurf1976 (12 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> 3, worst case scenario 100% coal doesn’t exist in any state of Australia, all states have a mix of renewables, gas and coal.



Well strictly speaking I could say there's no coal at all used for power in the NT although someone would then probably point out that it's technically not a state. 

Seriously, so long as we don't have people charging EV's during the peak then the power supply side isn't going to be hugely problematic. Ideally charging 10am - 3pm would be a real winner, to the extent there's any zero or at least low emissions energy going to waste that's largely when it happens, and second best would be 1am - 6am since it's not unknown that some wind goes to waste overnight although it's not overly common.

That varies a bit between states by the way but those that aren't there yet are rapidly approaching it as more solar is installed so I won't bother with the detail for those that aren't since it'll soon be obsolete anyway.

Worst time = during the evening peak the absolute extreme of which generally occurs between 6pm and 8pm depending on location, season and weather. The further away from that toward the low demand periods, the better. Reason, apart from any increase in the peaks driving up costs, is that's when you'll find the highest network losses and the least efficient generation running along with the energy losses of getting it running in the first place.

Getting the right approach to charging EV's will make a big difference to all this. It's one of those things where "if everyone does it......" then collectively it's serious power being drawn or not drawn so the timing does matter. Best = fill in the gaps in demand for other purposes. Worst = add to the current peaks. Anything else sits in the middle in terms of impact.

There's a few companies with ideas of doing some clever things in that space by the way. There are some different ideas around, ranging from consumer incentives through to centralised remote control, but they all have the same underlying objectives of filling in the gaps in demand with EV charging and not adding anything to the current peaks.

This can be done, it can be made to work, the questions are about the detail of doing it.

A point to remember though is that from an environmental (as distinct from technical etc) perspective the aim isn't to use electricity per se but to avoid the use of fossil fuels. If an EV isn't an option for whatever reason well a diesel or petrol car getting 5 litres / 100km beats one using 10 litres / 100km and don't even mention those getting 1 mile to the gallon or whatever.

As for me - no EV at present although I made provision for it with some electrical works done last year. My ICE driven car isn't too bad though - uses 7 litres / 100km typically. Not fantastic but by no means the worst car around for fuel consumption.


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## qldfrog (12 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> You factored in distribution losses already in regards to the ev.
> 
> Your model is basically comparing the worst case scenario Eg. 100% coal vs petrol that magically appears at the car with no prior energy losses.
> 
> ...



So redo the computation with these figures, proper ones, and add battery production costs..i mean nickel etc per year usage
Get the coal percentage in your grid, it costs to get coal to the power plant too, even more to import NG from shale as per Victoria model get
  figures roughly and honestly
then we can have a debate and facts, no preconceived idea
You start here by
I can not be wrong, his diesel ute can not possibly create less co2 than me..never good to fell conned i know..
Lets start anew
Give me facts and we can end up with
In 2020,  in tasmania buy a Tesla, not in qld..etc etc
That is where this thread should be
No rush, we all have busy lives
Please factor the fact my ute will still be running after 500k km
Or lets use the Commodore if you want to
An ugly car i would never buy and see as worst case scenario for an ice but lets get figure and facts..not links


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## Value Collector (12 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> So redo the computation with these figures, proper ones, and add battery production costs..i mean nickel etc per year usage
> Get the coal percentage in your grid, it costs to get coal to the power plant too, even more to import NG from shale as per Victoria model get
> figures roughly and honestly
> then we can have a debate and facts, no preconceived idea
> ...




The numbers have been done before by multiple organizations and EV’s always come out on top.

Even in the worst case scenario Where there is no renewables in the mix, Ev’s break even with petrol/diesel.

Go back and watch that video I linked.


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## Value Collector (12 January 2020)

Humid said:


> What and Woolworths and Coles don't
> Try going outside more and have a look around




again you have lost me.

your original point was that fuel makes up a large portion of “revenue”.

my point was that “revenue” and profit are different things.

Eg. Where a company makes its “profit” is more important than where it’s largest revenue is.

You could sell petrol at break even if you thought it would help you sell more cigarettes and snack foods. 

hence the reason some businesses provide free car charging to bring in customers.


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## tinhat (12 January 2020)

These global transformations of industrial technology don't happen overnight. I feel safe betting that over the next five to ten years most electric vehicles will be using NCM or NCA lithium-ion batteries. Grid storage will be a combination of lithium-iron, hydrogen batteries, flow batteries, molten salt batteries, who knows what else. Long distance transportation of energy generated from renewable sources will shipped as hydrogen. Something not mentioned by anyone here (I understand this is a discussion about vehicles rather than transport in general) is that the world's shipping fleet is also going to transitioning off hydrocarbons too. I suspect hydrogen storage would be most relevant to powering shipping.


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## Humid (12 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> again you have lost me.
> 
> your original point was that fuel makes up a large portion of “revenue”.
> 
> ...




Mate all I wanted was a pie


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## Value Collector (12 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Mate all I wanted was a pie




Then buy one, and the vender that sells it to you will probably make more money from that $5.50 pie than they do selling some one $60 (40 Liters) of fuel.

In fact your pie is probably subsidizing fuels sales, not being subsidized by fuel sales, so don’t worry 24hr snacks are not going to disappear.

pretty much every McDonald’s in my area is open 24 hours now, and not a single one has a petrol bowser.


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Then buy one, and the vender that sells it to you will probably make more money from that $5.50 pie than they do selling some one $60 (40 Liters) of fuel.
> 
> In fact your pie is probably subsidizing fuels sales, not being subsidized by fuel sales, so don’t worry 24hr snacks are not going to disappear.
> 
> pretty much every McDonald’s in my area is open 24 hours now, and not a single one has a petrol bowser.




2 years old, but this indicates the margins are a lot bigger than you say.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-01/retailers-reaping-record-margins-at-the-fuel-pump/8862268


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## Value Collector (12 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> 2 years old, but this indicates the margins are a lot bigger than you say.




Not at all.

the article stats “record margins” for Sydney are 10 cents per litre, so Even at that “record margin”

40 liters of fuel = $4 profit, where as that $5.50 pie probably also makes about $4 profit, if you add a coke then earn another $4.

not to mention That the pie oven cost a lot less to maintain than the system of pumps and underground fuel tanks.

As I said their is a reason they always try to up sell you, and The counter is full of stuff they are trying to sell.


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## Humid (12 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Then buy one, and the vender that sells it to you will probably make more money from that $5.50 pie than they do selling some one $60 (40 Liters) of fuel.
> 
> In fact your pie is probably subsidizing fuels sales, not being subsidized by fuel sales, so don’t worry 24hr snacks are not going to disappear.
> 
> pretty much every McDonald’s in my area is open 24 hours now, and not a single one has a petrol bowser.



Do they sell pies


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Not at all.
> 
> the article stats “record margins” for Sydney are 10 cents per litre, so Even at that “record margin”
> 
> ...




Well, I believe you said margins were 2-3c per litre, so 10 is about 3 times that.


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## qldfrog (12 January 2020)

Back to the EV stream
I found this page interesting, 
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fossil-fuels-energy-content-d_1298.html
providing the energy content for various fuels
Especially when discussing hydrogen cars
Hydrogen is amazing liquid hydrogen is 3 times nearly higher than other LNG, petrol etc..this you will read in the new, the part to be aware of is the actual density
First column
Liquid hydrogen:71kg per cubic meter vs 800 to 900 for diesel or petrol
What does that mean?
For an equal amount of energy storage, your tank will need to be 3 times bigger..10 (density factor)x1/3
As hydrogen store more energy
Conclusion your hydrogen tank will need to be 3 to 4 time bigger than your diesel one
For those old enough , you remember the shuttle enormous side boosters.liquid hydrogen...
So not impossible but a technical challenge especially with the extra compression and protections required in case of fire crash
Just wanted to bring a bit of technology to the debate
We also know that currently it is cheaper to produce hydrogen in Australia from gas ..petroleum or seam gas, than from water splitting..ideally with solar power
Call me pessimistic..or realistic minded


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Back to the EV stream
> I found this page interesting,
> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fossil-fuels-energy-content-d_1298.html
> providing the energy content for various fuels
> ...




Haven't we discussed the advance by CSIRO where the hydrogen is stored as liquid ammonia (NH4) and separated in the fuel tank ?

https://www.csiro.au/en/News/News-releases/2018/CSIRO-tech-accelerates-hydrogen-vehicle-future


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## Smurf1976 (12 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Do they sell pies



Well United certainly does - Pie Face.


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## Smurf1976 (12 January 2020)

How about looking at it the other way around.

Suppose that all cars are electric and someone's proposing that we switch to a system which:

*Requires the consumption of a liquid which needs to be frequently purchased in substantial volume. In practice this requires dedicated retail outlets, it is not practical to supply the required volume in bottles or other containers sold via normal shops, and a network of such facilities will need to be constructed to enable the operation of these vehicles.  

*This liquid is toxic to the natural environment if spilled, is extremely flammable and ignites explosively, is a carcinogen and also readily evaporates thus requiring careful storage. Every vehicle needs to carry this material, without which it immediately ceases to operate.

*Production of this liquid requires finding suitable places in which to drill holes in the ground, extracting a liquid which then requires considerable processing to be suitable for use.

*Finding of locations suitable for the drilling of these holes is itself a major and costly exercise. Locations thought to be suitable are, when drilled, often found to be unsuitable in practice.

*Places known to be suitable for the extraction of said liquid are predominantly on the other side of the world, in harsh physical environments and in non-Western countries such that maintaining supplies is likely to involve major political implications and perhaps even an effectively permanent military presence around these locations.

*The liquid in question is a finite resource and will ultimately run out.

*Use of this system involves each vehicle being fitted with something known as an exhaust. This emits an assortment of gases including some which form urban smog, are toxic to humans or which scientists consider likely to alter the planet's climate permanently.

Now apart perhaps from some very specific purposes which do not apply to ordinary consumers or small business, can anyone give me a good reason why we'd switch from EV's to this alternative system which for simplicity we'll refer to as "internal combustion"?


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## sptrawler (12 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> and as discussed before , it is actually a battle of centralised toward..potentially..decentralised source of energy; governments and corporates would probably prefer hydrogen fuel for that reason..
> The best would be an hydrogen battery..noting impossible in the concept but probably need mechanical compression so not realistic



The other problem with Battery EV as opposed to H2 EV, H2 is easier to tax, grid electricity is a problem as it doesn't just supply EV's and also as VC says most can mitigate their costs with PV.
Therefore unless you install EV charge specific metering, the poor will be subsidising the wealthy, but that in itself obviously isn't a problem, as the cheer squad on here is still on full song.
The Government could go to a mileage tax, but again that causes a problem for rural areas, also companies will write it off while those in the Country will subsidies those in the Cities.
Much easier just to charge by volume as happens with fuel.
It may cost the plebs more, but hey when has that bothered the Government? Better to have a system that user pays, than a system that is hard to tax.


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## qldfrog (12 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Haven't we discussed the advance by CSIRO where the hydrogen is stored as liquid ammonia (NH4) and separated in the fuel tank ?
> 
> https://www.csiro.au/en/News/News-releases/2018/CSIRO-tech-accelerates-hydrogen-vehicle-future



So that will mean even bigger tank as you need to store the useless nitrogen!!
Pure physics
By the way you do NOT want to be near an ammonia leak
Car crash run run...
Anyway, just pointing what i would call scientific/technical common sense
It could have applications but you will not see it in the street unless forced by gov for taxation purpose


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## qldfrog (12 January 2020)

None


Smurf1976 said:


> How about looking at it the other way around.
> 
> Suppose that all cars are electric and someone's proposing that we switch to a system which:
> 
> ...



None but imagine if the infrastructure is already there whereas the electricity grid is not...
Oops
So honestly ev before h2, and ev is the future
We all agree
As Australia is usually a good 2 decades behind, and ev are not there yet anywhere:
 ice in australia have a good 20y
So still time to buy a cheap diesel and save money for the next decades


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## sptrawler (12 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Back to the EV stream
> I found this page interesting,
> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fossil-fuels-energy-content-d_1298.html
> providing the energy content for various fuels
> ...



From what I've read frog, about 5kg's of liquid H2 is good for about 500klm, the cylinders will be as oxy or acetelene tanks are now, tested pressure vessels as the hydrogen will be at high pressure.
But in reality this isn't a major hurdle, you can already buy liquid H2 bottles from BOC, it wouldn't be a great deal of difference from the filling of LPG and taxis have been doing that for half a century.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai
From the article:
_The FCV uses Toyota's proprietary, small, light-weight fuel cell stack and two 70 MPa high-pressure hydrogen tanks placed beneath the specially designed body. The Toyota FCV concept can accommodate up to four occupants. For the full-scale market launch in 2015, the cost of the fuel cell system is expected to be 95% lower than that of the 2008 Toyota FCHV-adv.[23]

The Mirai has two hydrogen tanks with a three-layer structure made of carbon fiber-reinforced plastic consisting of nylon 6 from Ube Industries[46] and other materials. The tanks store hydrogen at 70 MPa (10,000 psi). The tanks have a combined weight 87.5 kg (193 lb).[4][42] and 5 kg capacity.

Toyota's news release for the 2021 Mirai refers to a 30% increase in range due to increased hydrogen storage capacity, but does not specify the capacity.

The official Toyota consumption declaration states hydrogen is consumed at the rate of 0.8 kg/100 km (2.8 lb/100 miles) on the combined urban/extra urban cycle_.

The biggest problem diesel is going to have is political pressure, as is happening in Europe, where they are to be banned in the next few years.
Which is a shame, because I think they are far better, than petrol engined cars.
The thermodynamic efficiency is higher and the soot particles can be collected with DPF filters, which now are extremely good.
Just my opinion.


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## SirRumpole (12 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> So that will mean even bigger tank as you need to store the useless nitrogen!!
> Pure physics




70% of the atmosphere is nitrogen froggy, why do you need to store it, just set it free !


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## Joe90 (12 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Back to the EV stream
> For those old enough , you remember the shuttle enormous side boosters.liquid hydrogen...




Space shuttle (solid) rocket boosters were solid propellant type (ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer) and atomized aluminum powder). Have a read at Wikipedia.


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## Smurf1976 (12 January 2020)

Joe90 said:


> Space shuttle (solid) rocket boosters were solid propellant type (ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer) and atomized aluminum powder)



Now that would be one way to make a car move.

Oh yes it would. 

Now where do I get those.......


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## moXJO (12 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Not at all.
> 
> the article stats “record margins” for Sydney are 10 cents per litre, so Even at that “record margin”
> 
> ...



This is actually true. They have 400-600% markups on goods in store. Those 24/7 types of stores actually can return your initial investment in the first year when located around certain areas of Sydney.


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## qldfrog (12 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> 70% of the atmosphere is nitrogen froggy, why do you need to store it, just set it free !



You misunderstood what i meant
If you need 4kg of h2, if combined with N, it will be obviously heavier to store as you will need to store as carburant one extra N for 2 H2 molécules
Simple chemistry


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## qldfrog (12 January 2020)

Joe90 said:


> Space shuttle (solid) rocket boosters were solid propellant type (ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer) and atomized aluminum powder). Have a read at Wikipedia.



My mistake: the boosters  you refer to were the small side ones, the huge enormous one was indeed H2 liquid and was the main tank
So hydrogen  equal big tank


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## qldfrog (12 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> From what I've read frog, about 5kg's of liquid H2 is good for about 500klm, the cylinders will be as oxy or acetelene tanks are now, tested pressure vessels as the hydrogen will be at high pressure.
> But in reality this isn't a major hurdle, you can already buy liquid H2 bottles from BOC, it wouldn't be a great deal of difference from the filling of LPG and taxis have been doing that for half a century.
> 
> 
> ...




Interesting indeed
But physic does not lie so 0.8kg per 100 km hydrogen is roughly equivalent to a 2.5l per 100km petrol
So basically a prius efficiency..optimal on a micro car with a 90kg tank for 5kg fuel
Anyone knows the energy requirement to compress h2 to 10000psi?
Using fuel cell you get back to ev efficiency but i believe the h2 production and compression /transport would be more costly than the losses in an ev battery?
Imho, maybe good for heavy vehicle running 24/7, ships more than personal cars where ev would be more convenient
Planes also as they need to be lighter  and especially 24/7 running cycles with fuel cells or jets 
But H2 jets would find it hard to compete with fossil fuel due to tank weight and volume 
probably brand new type of wings etc needed maybe delta style wings
Would be an interesting field to work in.


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## sptrawler (12 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> My mistake: the boosters  you refer to were the small side ones, the huge enormous one was indeed H2 liquid and was the main tank
> So hydrogen  equal big tank



Are you saying, that vehicles with fuel cells and hydrogen tanks, are going to need extremely large hydrogen tanks?

The exploded view of the Toyota Mirai, doesn't seem to indicate that the tanks are excessively large, but their are two of them. 120l +60l

file:///C:/Users/keith's%20desktop/Downloads/Toyota%20Mirai%20FCV_Posters_LR_tcm-11-564265.pdf


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## qldfrog (12 January 2020)

Yes basically either large or very strong
You mentioned 80 plus kilo tank, in carbon fiber..nothing less.. to store 5kg of liquid h2 at 10000psi
Yes it is possible but i can only imagine the cost
I just want people or readers here to understand what stands behind these new technologies, be it the actual co2 cost of charging a tesla coming back from work to this notion of let's do hydrogen as if we were producing oil
Not exactly
The lng gas train..the factory liquifying gas produce in Australia consume 6pc of their feed just to turn NG into LNG
I doubt it will be less for hydrogen, i actually expect more power required but have no data here..anyone?
Anyway, be aware, and do not boast green CO2 Credo if using an EV in Qld unless you are on green energy
Ideally do your own check and computation if these subjects matter to you, 
Do not rely on irrelevant article based on different contexts or geography


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## sptrawler (12 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Yes basically either large or very strong
> You mentioned 80 plus kilo tank, in carbon fiber..nothing less.. to store 5kg of liquid h2 at 10000psi
> Yes it is possible but i can only imagine the cost
> I just want people or readers here to understand what stands behind these new technologies, be it the actual co2 cost of charging a tesla coming back from work to this notion of let's do hydrogen as if we were producing oil
> ...




I don't think the change will be driven by common sense, it certainly hasn't been so far, it will be driven by the media and oil companies etc trying to find new ways of keeping the money going around.


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## qldfrog (12 January 2020)

I possibly see a future where oil is cracked and h2 extracted, c belching from refineries and h2 compressed..more co2. Then exported or delivered to "green h2 vehicles" full of Greenpeace bumper stickers and costing twice as much as nowadays
A real possibility, similar to ev being charged Here or in China on coal,
I hope not but..


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## Value Collector (13 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, I believe you said margins were 2-3c per litre, so 10 is about 3 times that.




they were when I worked in the industry in 2000, but as your article says 10cents was a “record high margin”, but either way 10cents on a $1.50 sale is still low especially because that is gross margin, meaning that 10cents has to pay all the costs of wages, rent, electricity etc etc.

so net profit margin might be less than 2cents once all the expenses are covered


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## Value Collector (13 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I possibly see a future where oil is cracked and h2 extracted, c belching from refineries and h2 compressed..more co2. Then exported or delivered to "green h2 vehicles" full of Greenpeace bumper stickers and costing twice as much as nowadays
> A real possibility, similar to ev being charged Here or in China on coal,
> I hope not but..




I see a future without any oil refiners at all.


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## Smurf1976 (13 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> The lng gas train..the factory liquifying gas produce in Australia consume 6pc of their feed just to turn NG into LNG




The figures for one particular plant are efficiency of just under 90%, so a bit over 10% used in conversion.

That's for a real plant currently operating in Australia. It does not include energy used in extracting and transporting gas to the plant, that's just the efficiency once it gets there.


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## SirRumpole (13 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I see a future without any oil refiners at all.




The plastics industry would need to be replaced.

With what ?


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## Smurf1976 (13 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The plastics industry would need to be replaced.



Ethane (a minor component of natural gas) is a widely used petrochemical feedstock not originating from crude oil as such. One product made with it by the way is....... gas pipes!

So plastic gas pipes are made using a minor component gas stripped out of the remaining gas which goes through the pipe. The wonders of chemistry. A lot of fertilzer is made from natural gas too by the way, it's a straightforward process.

By yeah, there's all manner of things made from oil from asphalt (roads) to lubricants to solvents to plastics and so on. Whatever device you're reading this on, it's made using products derived from oil that's a certainty.

Lots of things like that by the way. Eg there are coal by-products in lipstick is one thing they tell visitors to steelworks as they take them past the coke ovens which separate the volatiles from the carbon in the coal.

We also get solid coke (pet coke) from oil too by the way. An important use of that is for the anodes which conduct electricity into the pits in aluminium smelters - the anodes burn away so require constant replacement but since pet coke is a waste product of oil refining there's plenty of it so no problem.

So quite a lot of things would need to be sorted out there if oil use was to go to literally zero. That won't happen overnight.

Now, 'bout them rockets for the car that someone mentioned earlier. From where do I get these?


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## Value Collector (13 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The plastics industry would need to be replaced.
> 
> With what ?




synthetic oil.


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## SirRumpole (13 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> synthetic oil.




I'm interested.

Do you have any links on this ?


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## qldfrog (13 January 2020)

Imho, oil industry will not be replaced by gas for plastic, why would you?
Oil is a miracle chemical liquid full of complex already existing long chains..why would you take gas..very simple elements, put energy in and so pollute to end up with what is already in oil in the first place.
synthetic oil was produced to bypass oil shortage in South Africa during apartheid years.. SA was under a blocus.so they used coal to petrol..aka liquid form..to run their cars
My old chemistry professor used to say it is a crime to burn oil for heating..it is a chemistry miracle juice, like feeding a furnace with Rembrandt and scultures
Hope it helps.
Like coking vs thermal coal, "petrol" be it from sand tar to light crude means a lot of different things and it is just brought down to a single term for simplicity and understanding of the masses.
By dumbing down language and science, we dumb down society and make it so easy for everyone to feel an expert... they just need to...


----------



## qldfrog (13 January 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> So quite a lot of things would need to be sorted out there if oil use was to go to literally zero. That won't happen overnight.



Indeed, right now, the world is fed on petrol, literally xx tonnes of oil to get xx tonnes of wheat.
Without fertilisers, mankind starves. But overpopulation is not treated, as CC is the thread.ROL..EV will not sort that.
But as  lucky rich Earthlings, we will enjoy them, and i have nothing against that.We can even add Greenpeace stickers on the bumpers and pretend to save mother earth


----------



## Value Collector (13 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm interested.
> 
> Do you have any links on this ?




Oil is mainly hydrogen and carbon atoms in long chain molecules.

I’m not talking about short term future, but in the longterm we should be able to create these products by combining hydrogen from water and carbon taken out of the air.


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## qldfrog (13 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Oil is mainly hydrogen and carbon atoms in long chain molecules.
> 
> I’m not talking about short term future, but in the longterm we should be able to create these products by combining hydrogen from water and carbon taken out of the air.



Agree but only when we will have exhausted the reserves, no need to at the moment or in the short /medium term future


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## SirRumpole (13 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Agree but only when we will have exhausted the reserves, no need to at the moment or in the short /medium term future




Wait until it's too late to come up with alternatives or patent the synthetic oil  processes and sit on them until all the profits have been squeezed out of oil ?


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## qldfrog (13 January 2020)

It is already technically doable,d and done as per Smurf post, just no need and both economically and environmentally irrelevant at the current stage in most cases
Definitively an area where capitalism work best


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## Value Collector (13 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Agree but only when we will have exhausted the reserves, no need to at the moment or in the short /medium term future




either exploited the reserves or hit some environmental limit on how many reserves we can safely exploit.


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## sptrawler (13 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> synthetic oil.



I think you will find currently it is made from oil, just processed more, to produce a smaller more stable molecule.


----------



## qldfrog (13 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> either exploited the reserves or hit some environmental limit on how many reserves we can safely exploit.



True but would the alternative be better?
At the present, very far reached and we all agree
We adapt and innovate: the story of mankind, and where EV now take their place


----------



## Value Collector (13 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm interested.
> 
> Do you have any links on this ?







check this out.

imagine process like this that can capture carbon directly from the air, and then combine them with hydrogen to produce what ever fuels/plastic we like.

of course I still think our road transport is best suited to electric/battery vehicles.

but jet fuels and other things that aren’t suited to battery tech could be using synthetic fuels in the future.

plants producing these types of fuels would be perfect for soaking up peak renewables supply, and also make great investments for both Bond and equity investors.




P.S I love love Gates is willing to tackle problems like this, No fortune is being spent better in my opinion than The Gates/buffet fortunes, both are amazing men.


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## Value Collector (13 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> True but would the alternative be better?
> At the present, very far reached and we all agree
> We adapt and innovate: the story of mankind, and where EV now take their place




mankind’s story is truly remarkable, but yes I think the only way forward is for us to eventually get to a point where 100% of our energy is derived through either renewables or nuclear. 

there is simply no other way that is sustainable longterm so we have to get there eventually.

Also, big investments such as this fit very well into our capitalistic model.

each household can invest in their own solar panels/batteries for their own usage or resale.

and the energy companies can buy the excess + invest in their own large scale renewable electrical production to supply industry and the synthetic fuel market (Eg jets).


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## qldfrog (13 January 2020)

About nuclear, please please be careful of what you wish with nuclear
Nuclear and sustainable ate absolutely incompatible.
only the fact we do not have nuclear here can make it attraction, fusion, thorium yes 
 But fission uranium:
No thanks


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## Smurf1976 (13 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> About nuclear, please please be careful of what you wish with nuclear
> Nuclear and sustainable ate absolutely incompatible.



Very true.

There's arguably a case for continuing to operate those facilities already built so long as they remain safe and can be operated reasonably economically. That is, don't set any specific closure date based on regulation etc.

Whatever those plants generate, in the vast majority of cases is directly avoiding the use of coal, gas or in some cases oil and from an economic perspective, both financially and in terms of materials etc, the costs have mostly already been incurred during construction.

Building any more of them is however an entirely different matter and makes far less sense in my view. Only real exception is if you're on a densely populated island which has no credible earthquake risk is too far from any larger land mass to transmit power from there. That's not most places.


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## Smurf1976 (13 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> but jet fuels and other things that aren’t suited to battery tech could be using synthetic fuels in the future




Agreed definitely.

To avoid confusion though I'll add that the term "synthetic" has a different meaning in the present day to the one it may have in the future that you're referring to.

Any "synthetic" oil that you can buy today is either produced using natural gas as the feedstock or is produced using an assortment of chemicals which, whilst they are not oil, were ultimately obtained from crude oil via various processes.

Mineral oil in the context of lubricants etc = simply refined from crude oil and some additives put in.

Synthetic oil = "built" from various chemical components but the ultimate origin of those components, via some complex chemistry, is still crude oil and/or natural gas.

There's some fancy tricks possible with all this stuff. I'm no industrial chemist but among others I'm aware of:

It's entirely possible to make ethanol, that is alcohol of the kind suitable for drinking, from petroleum. It's not how spirits or beer are actually made but it can be done.

Or for a practical one, the entire gas supply for Hobart during the period 1964 - 1978 was obtained from a plant cracking naphtha into gas. Naphtha is a clear flammable liquid derived from crude oil. For anyone familiar - the plant was located roughly where the now demolished cool store was later built, diagonally opposite the concert hall which didn't exist at the time. The plant was by no means unique, plenty of such things existed at the time in various parts of the world.


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## qldfrog (13 January 2020)

https://www.drive.com.au/news/humme...m-us-media-reports-123078.html?trackLink=SMH2
Am I going too far with the cybertruck offer and now this that we can now have green bogan dicks?
GM probably hoping weed legalisation will not go too far..;-)


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## sptrawler (14 January 2020)

This is a good explanation of the Toyota Mirai H2 fuel cell car.

https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/assets...ks/Docs/MY18_Mirai_eBrochure_FuelCellTech.pdf


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## Value Collector (16 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This is a good explanation of the Toyota Mirai H2 fuel cell car.
> 
> https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/assets...ks/Docs/MY18_Mirai_eBrochure_FuelCellTech.pdf




So it is basically a hydrogen fuel cell/ Battery Hybrid, I honestly don’t get it.

I mean, basically what it comes down to is that instead of putting a larger battery into the car, you put a smaller battery in and use some of that battery space to put in a hydrogen tank and a fuel cell.

But, the battery driving is going to be so much cheaper than the hydrogen powered driving you will be gritting your teeth every time the hydrogen power comes on.

After driving my Tesla round for a few months now, including interstate trips I would hate to have a hydrogen tank.

Battery power is just so much more convenient, and easier to install charging stations than hydrogen stations.

the only winners of hydrogen are the oil companies in my opinion, ofcourse  they would rather sell me hydrogen than have me charge in my garage using my own solar, but it’s better for me to avoid hydrogen.


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## sptrawler (16 January 2020)

I think hydrogen is a long, long, long way off, but the technology will be developed.
At the moment BEV's are definitely leading the march and in reality will help stabilise the electricity grid.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/renewab...per-australia-could-lead-global-market-95168/

The design of batteries needs to improve and the extraction of hydrogen does also, I think there will be massive steps forward in both mediums.


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## Value Collector (16 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think hydrogen is a long, long, long way off, but the technology will be developed.
> At the moment BEV's are definitely leading the march and in reality will help stabilise the electricity grid.
> 
> https://reneweconomy.com.au/renewab...per-australia-could-lead-global-market-95168/
> ...




yeah, there with definitely be ways to use hydrogen in the future, especially in creating synthetic jets fuels etc.

I am just not convinced it is the best way forward for our daily commuter cars.


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## Smurf1976 (16 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think hydrogen is a long, long, long way off, but the technology will be developed.




Getting it to work as such isn't too difficult. Quite a few things from go-carts to full size cars were converted to hydrogen as part of some research work in Tasmania about a decade ago indeed one was even entered in a car race. Not that anyone expected the hydrogen powered Corolla to win the race but it was all about proving what could be done.

Doing it in a manner that's energy efficient, however, well that's far more difficult than just making it work as such. It's dead easy so long as you can live with 15% efficiency, much harder if you want something better.


----------



## sptrawler (23 January 2020)

Another entrant to the electric car space.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/2021-...ew-york-motor-show-123135.html?trackLink=SMH2

I suppose some of these smaller niche market companies, may get bought out if their product is good.


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## orr (23 January 2020)

Anyone in here keeping a close eye out for the Tesla battery investor spruke? maybe a month or two..
Can anyone give me any atuo Mfg  company that is ahead or close and i mean less than 4-5yrs behind what TSLA's is doing at price and preformance?
And yes trawler those companies are being bought . Hybar and Maxwell. Should I tell you by who?
Currently we're at circa 250wh/kg with lithium. 400wh/kg is a speacial threshold, but not for cars...


----------



## ducati916 (24 January 2020)

Batteries and renewables in general are made of earthly materials that have to be mined, transported, refined, and turned into finished products. The Tesla battery weighs about a thousand pounds and requires 500,000 pounds of raw material to be unearthed to build it.

Tesla doesn’t own the battery cell technology (AA-looking battery units) that goes into its batteries; that belongs to its partner, Japanese conglomerate Panasonic. Tesla designed the battery pack (the enclosure that houses the battery cells) and the battery management system controller (computer) that routes and manages electricity flow and the microclimate of the battery cells.

The battery is a key technology for Tesla, but as of right now Panasonic is in control of a big part of it. Tesla, which is vertically integrated, may eventually increase its control over its battery technology. The company’s purchase of Maxwell Technologies, which has a battery technology that may significantly lower the cost of cell manufacturing, is the first move toward independence from Panasonic.

jog on
duc


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## Value Collector (24 January 2020)

ducati916 said:


> Batteries and renewables in general are made of earthly materials that have to be mined, transported, refined, and turned into finished products.




And then those “finished products” will be recycled and turned into new “finished products” at the end of their life.

So the materials that are used to create and use renewable energy will have a much longer life than the materials such as coal and oil that get mined and used once.

Also, it’s not like regular cars don’t use mined materials for their power trains.


----------



## qldfrog (24 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Also, it’s not like regular cars don’t use mined materials for their power trains.



But those “finished products” ARE recycled and turned into new “finished products” ALREADY..
Lower upfront cost as iron is already well recycled..
But why spoil a good story with facts
EV are great but so far, not yet "green"  in mainland Australia.easy to compute yourself..if you dare
Let's stop ideology and look at facts or figures however inconvenient it might be for egos
Tesla are the beemers of the leftists with a guilt complex.But there is no shame in liking and having good engineered toys if you can afford it, EV or not.
So bring EV, we need an economic stimulus and build new plants and factory, infrastructure and mines, etc etc.
The whole EU is actually launching an economic stimulus..to save the planet


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## Value Collector (24 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> But those “finished products” ARE recycled and turned into new “finished products” ALREADY..
> Lower upfront cost as iron is already well recycled..
> But why spoil a good story with facts
> EV are great but so far, not yet "green"  in mainland Australia.easy to compute yourself..if you dare
> ...




not sure what you are on about.

My point is simply that the mined materials that are used to make batteries and renewable energy can be recycled and used multiple times, potentially staying in use for 100 years or more, so it would be unfair to account for things as if they will be made from virgin materials forever.

Yes, Iron is recycled as well, but that doesn’t detract from The EV and renewable energy story.


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## sptrawler (24 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> not sure what you are on about.
> 
> My point is simply that the mined materials that are used to make batteries and renewable energy can be recycled and used multiple times, potentially staying in use for 100 years or more, so it would be unfair to account for things as if they will be made from virgin materials forever.
> 
> Yes, Iron is recycled as well, but that doesn’t detract from The EV and renewable energy story.



You do make it sound like perpetual motion, make a battery, then just keep re using it forever, nothing is lost just recycled. Rinse wash repeat, I dont think so. Lol


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## Value Collector (24 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> You do make it sound like perpetual motion, make a battery, then just keep re using it forever, nothing is lost just recycled. Rinse wash repeat, I dont think so. Lol




No, I didn't say nothing is lost.

Like any recycling there will be small losses, recycling 100 batteries will probably reclaim enough material to make 99 new ones, hence the material that is mined will be in use for decades if not 100's of years given the batteries will probably be in use for 15+ years at a time before they need to be recycled.

But some people try and make out that we will be sending these batteries full of valuable metals to landfill at the end of their life, I am simply pointing out that those metals will be recycled into new products.

So the "Carbon Accountants" out there that want to make to make out that mining battery materials removes all benefits of EV's and Renewable energy are simply wrong.


----------



## sptrawler (24 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No, I didn't say nothing is lost.
> 
> Like any recycling there will be small losses, recycling 100 batteries will probably reclaim enough material to make 99 new ones, hence the material that is mined will be in use for decades if not 100's of years given the batteries will probably be in use for 15+ years at a time before they need to be recycled.
> 
> ...



99% recovery rate, I would like to see the actual evidence of that, if it's true that is amazing IMO


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## SirRumpole (24 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> 99% recovery rate, I would like to see the actual evidence of that, if it's true that is amazing IMO




Here is a scholarly dissertation on recycling Li batteries if you care to wade through it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ustralia.PDF&usg=AOvVaw2EMLZJqjdR_TtmYQWJkc_o


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## Value Collector (24 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> 99% recovery rate, I would like to see the actual evidence of that, if it's true that is amazing IMO




Tesla is aiming for a completely closed loop system. 

But, 99% or 89% or even 50% doesn't matter, my point holds true, calculating EV foot print based on all the materials going to land fill is just misleading.


----------



## Value Collector (24 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Here is a scholarly dissertation on recycling Li batteries if you care to wade through it.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=2ahUKEwix17fVsJvnAhU9xzgGHaecBK0QFjAMegQIAxAB&url=https://www.csiro.au/~/media/EF/Files/Lithium-battery-recycling-in-Australia.PDF&usg=AOvVaw2EMLZJqjdR_TtmYQWJkc_o




By the time the batteries start hitting the scrap cycle on mass in 15 or 20 years or so from now, there will be plenty of recycling schemes ready for them.


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## Smurf1976 (24 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> But, 99% or 89% or even 50% doesn't matter, my point holds true, calculating EV foot print based on all the materials going to land fill is just misleading.



I don't have any figures but at present if you dispose of a car in a city then fair chance the metal gets recycled. 

Dispose of the same car in a regional area and you'll find that the local council has a specific price for dumping cars at the tip, it's a set rate for a car body and is not based on weight, and that's exactly where they go. 

Bottom line is that a substantial number of cars at present get recycled and a substantial number get buried so the answer is "somewhere in the middle".


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## sptrawler (24 January 2020)

Currently I think I read, in Australia 2% of batteries get recycled and that is overseas, I didnt want to say anything because I thought it would sound negative.
Then I thought what the hell, everyone else is negative about climate change, it might make me feel part of the action.


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## Value Collector (24 January 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't have any figures but at present if you dispose of a car in a city then fair chance the metal gets recycled.
> 
> Dispose of the same car in a regional area and you'll find that the local council has a specific price for dumping cars at the tip, it's a set rate for a car body and is not based on weight, and that's exactly where they go.
> 
> Bottom line is that a substantial number of cars at present get recycled and a substantial number get buried so the answer is "somewhere in the middle".




for the average Internal combustion engine car yes.

But, as people constantly point out, the EV's contain a large battery with $1000's worth of valuable metals, So there will be a big incentive to get the car back to a recycling facility where the battery (and the rest of the car) gets recycled.

In fact as you point out some regular cars do not enter the recycling system because transporting them is not cost effective, However adding a $10,000 battery to the car is a large incentive to get that car back to a recycling centre.

So EV's might end up being recycled at higher rates due to their contents,... lets chalk this up as another environmental benefit of the EV, hahaha


----------



## Value Collector (24 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Currently I think I read, in Australia 2% of batteries get recycled and that is overseas, I didnt want to say anything because I thought it would sound negative.
> Then I thought what the hell, everyone else is negative about climate change, it might make me feel part of the action.




probably true with AA batteries etc.

But if you have $10,000 batteries getting around, they will be recycled for sure. 

there is already a market for Tesla batteries pulled from car wreaks etc, people break down they packs and repurpose the individual cells, "reuse is the best form of recycling" after all.


----------



## ducati916 (25 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> probably true with AA batteries etc.
> 
> But if you have $10,000 batteries getting around, they will be recycled for sure.
> 
> there is already a market for Tesla batteries pulled from car wreaks etc, people break down they packs and repurpose the individual cells, "reuse is the best form of recycling" after all.





No issues about the recycling arguments. There are however 2 issues:

[1] The issue rather is: to replace all ICE cars currently (a sunk investment) with EVs, will require a massive drain on natural resources (as far as batteries go) to manufacture these batteries. Googles current guestimate is 1.4 billion passenger cars currently. EV cars 3.4 million.

So is the idea to phase out ICE cars over time or legislate them out of existence overnight? The latter is probably not economically feasible. The former rather defeats the purpose (CO2 emissions) as it could take a significant period of time.

[2] Further, they require cobalt, a mineral that is found in the Earth’s crust. But 50% to 70% (depending on the source) of cobalt reserves are in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), a politically unstable country that doesn’t shy from inhuman labor practices and child labor. Tesla and Panasonic have been reducing the amount of cobalt used in their batteries; it has declined by 60% – the Model 3 battery contains only 2.8% cobalt (the Volkswagen ID.3’s battery contains 12% to 14% cobalt). Tesla and Panasonic recently announced that they are working on a cobalt-free battery; they’ll substitute silicon for cobalt.

Assuming that works, possibly not an issue. Until then, still an issue.

jog on
duc


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## qldfrog (25 January 2020)

And for people living in Australia who actually care for the planet now, well available in may, 
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...e/news-story/c257776c82f494e2b44be19f14f5bb91
Yaris hybrid
Will be interesting to see the pricing


----------



## orr (25 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> And for people living in Australia who actually care for the planet now, well available in may,
> https://www.news.com.au/technology/...e/news-story/c257776c82f494e2b44be19f14f5bb91
> Yaris hybrid
> Will be interesting to see the pricing




Two things;
A Yaris hybrid will be boring... Toyota prides itself on being boring
People in Australia who care about the planet now? May i suggest that those people are either dumping fossil fuel stock or have never bought in the first place(shorting possibly). The BIS  sees this as a serious risk. 
The consequences for the Aussie dollar? I'm spreading my risk.
https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/tes...tralia-electric-car-sales-reach-5000-in-2019/

Some companies appear to have an upside.


----------



## Humid (25 January 2020)

orr said:


> Two things;
> A Yaris hybrid will be boring... Toyota prides itself on being boring
> People in Australia who care about the planet now? May i suggest that those people are either dumping fossil fuel stock or have never bought in the first place(shorting possibly). The BIS  sees this as a serious risk.
> The consequences for the Aussie dollar? I'm spreading my risk.
> ...




Boring?...
https://www.motor1.com/news/382517/toyota-yaris-gr-4-engine/


----------



## orr (25 January 2020)

ducati916 said:


> No issues about the recycling arguments. There are however 2 issues:
> 
> 
> 
> [2] they require cobalt, a mineral that is found in the Earth’s crust. But 50% to 70% (depending on the source) of cobalt reserves are in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), a politically unstable country that doesn’t shy from inhuman labor practices and child labor. Tesla and Panasonic have been reducing the amount of cobalt used in their batteries; it has declined by 60% – the Model 3 battery contains only 2.8% cobalt (the Volkswagen ID.3’s battery contains 12% to 14% cobalt). Tesla and Panasonic recently announced that they are working on a cobalt-free battery; they’ll substitute silicon for cobalt.




Pg 10 of Maxwells 01/19 presention( 6months prior to TSLA purchace) Zero Cobalt 300wh/kg demonstrated pathway to 500..
http://s21.q4cdn.com/566123494/files/doc_presentations/2019/Maxwell-Needham-Conference-Deck.pdf

on Recycling ... JB Struabal + Stevenson + Redwood ....DYOR


----------



## basilio (25 January 2020)

orr said:


> https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/tes...tralia-electric-car-sales-reach-5000-in-2019/




Significant story.. The article points out car sales in Oz have fallen significantly and the argument is many people are putting off a new car purchase until electric cars come on stream at more competitive prices.  That could be 2-3 years.

If that is the case then one could see ICE car sales falling off a cliff from mid 2020's.


----------



## orr (25 January 2020)

Humid said:


> Boring?...



Tell you what will be interesting; The date TSLA has a Capital value more than Toyota. One day intrim 12-18months??? (circa $900US) sustained not long after... so we'll see.


----------



## Humid (25 January 2020)

orr said:


> Tell you what will be interesting; The date TSLA has a Capital value more than Toyota. One day intrim 12-18months??? (circa $900US) sustained not long after... so we'll see.



I see performance vehicles
Don't give a rat's what powers them


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## Smurf1976 (25 January 2020)

ducati916 said:


> So is the idea to phase out ICE cars over time or legislate them out of existence overnight? The latter is probably not economically feasible. The former rather defeats the purpose (CO2 emissions) as it could take a significant period of time.



Statistically the average age of a car in Australia is very close to 10 years so the average lifespan would be roughly double that.

Have a look around the streets. It's now unusual to see any car from the 1980's or earlier, you could be waiting quite a while for even one to go past, and for that matter anything prior to mid-1990's is fairly uncommon now.

Go forward to 2050 and it'll be the same story. Someone will note that there's very few cars on the road that were built prior to 2020 and that anything prior to 2025 is fairly uncommon.

My thinking is thus very firmly in the camp of gradual replacement. Just stop building ICE's and in due course the fleet becomes completely electric. After 20 years petrol is no longer a big thing, any car lasting longer than that is likely to be doing lower than average mileage, and after 30 years it's effectively gone apart from collectors of old cars etc who'll be buying the stuff in drums by that stage.  

A rushed replacement would do more harm than good through the waste of materials etc plus the reality that it would be impractical to build the EV's quickly enough anyway.


----------



## fergee (25 January 2020)

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/teslas-valuation-surpasses-ford-and-gm-combined/


----------



## ducati916 (26 January 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Statistically the average age of a car in Australia is very close to 10 years so the average lifespan would be roughly double that.
> 
> Have a look around the streets. It's now unusual to see any car from the 1980's or earlier, you could be waiting quite a while for even one to go past, and for that matter anything prior to mid-1990's is fairly uncommon now.
> 
> ...





I would tend to agree...it will take time to replace ICE with EV.

Assuming (for the moment) that that is the case: If CO2 emissions are a problem or contributory factor to (an assumed) global warming problem...isn't it all too late?

If the above is true and EVs can make a difference (statistically significant) to the global warming problem (assuming for the moment that there is a problem): then the reality is that the ICE needs to go now. Overnight (so to speak). Which, as I'm gathering, is not possible for any number of reasons.

jog on
duc


----------



## qldfrog (26 January 2020)

ducati916 said:


> I would tend to agree...it will take time to replace ICE with EV.
> 
> Assuming (for the moment) that that is the case: If CO2 emissions are a problem or contributory factor to (an assumed) global warming problem...isn't it all too late?
> 
> ...



Duc,
You got it right:
With all the assumption you noted: co2 causing global warming etc
Yes far too late and considering the increase on motor vehicle numbers are in market where they can not afford more expensive cars: India, Indonesia China and Africa
This is all a very theorical subject
But enjoy it: you as a western consumer can purchase now highly subsidised state of the art technology with lower running cost if you can add solar panels.
And there is no doubt they are beautiful machines
In the name of the environment with feel good and show off status added for free


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 January 2020)

ducati916 said:


> then the reality is that the ICE needs to go now. Overnight (so to speak). Which, as I'm gathering, is not possible for any number of reasons.



Contemplate the logistics, materials, workforce and financial implications of producing ~20 years worth of cars in a very much shorter time.

No chance of it happening in practice.


----------



## Value Collector (26 January 2020)

ducati916 said:


> I would tend to agree...it will take time to replace ICE with EV.
> 
> Assuming (for the moment) that that is the case: If CO2 emissions are a problem or contributory factor to (an assumed) global warming problem...isn't it all too late?
> 
> ...




Of course it will take time to replace the vehicle fleet, But the fact is that as each old car gets replaced with a newer car, (even a non EV) it should be producing less carbon per KM driven, and thats a good thing, (never let perfect be the enemy of good).

And, if a person (rich or poor), decides to replace their car with some super efficient car, thats a great thing also.

But, we all know there is no one single solution, and climate change is cause by many factors.

Transport emissions only rates as number 3 on the list.

1, is Pollution caused by electricity (this is being attacked by our steady move towards greener sources)

2, is Animal agriculture and the clearing of forest to grow crops to feed animals, moving towards more plant based food sources helps with this.

3, is Transport, Creating more efficient vehicles and switching them to the ever greener grid helps with this, also forcing Oil producers to extract oil in ways that limits releases of byproducts helps to.

then as I showed in the video I linked above there is ways we remove carbon from the atmosphere and undone some old damage.


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## basilio (26 January 2020)

There is also the possibility of a steep rise in autonomous cars.  If for arguments sake the overall number of  cars fell because many people could share cars rather than own them the game would change.

But hey. That would threaten the profits of the car industry big time and that can't be allowed can it ?
(On the other hand industry might be so overwhelmed with the need to build new inland cities, fortify infrastructure, build CO2 sucking machines they wouldn't mind...)


----------



## sptrawler (26 January 2020)

As frog said, the issue really isnt in the first World, India, South America and the like have very little ability to replace their fleet, as they become more afluent, they will buy more ICE cars, as the infrastructure isnt there to support electric
Lets be honest it will take time here, and we only have a population of 25million, how hard will it be in a third World Country that is industrialising?
Unless they have gas reserves, they will use coal, so it all becomes a bit of chase your tail stuff. IMO
This is one of the problems associated with industrialising third World  Countries to improve their living standards, with it comes affluence, with affluence comes energy consumption.
Like I said earlier, we could switch of all the coal fired generation tomorrow, if everyone stopped using their fridges, air cons, computers, 65 inch t.vs etc, but that aint going to happen.
We just demand, we want it and we want now and we want it clean.lol
We never stop wanting, which in the end, will be the downfall of humans.
I just cant understand how people think this is solvable, without nuclear, but hey what do I know.


----------



## sptrawler (27 January 2020)

Mercedes having trouble sourcing enough batteries for its E.V's.

https://www.mining.com/web/mercedes-halves-ev-production-target-due-to-battery-shortage/


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I just cant understand how people think this is solvable, without nuclear, but hey what do I know.



Technically it could be done.

Politics makes it problematic at the global level to actually do it however since the technical solution ideally removes any concept of political boundaries whereas at the moment we can't even get neighbouring countries Saudi Arabia and Qatar to work together and the former ends up burning crude oil in power stations whilst the latter along with Iran sit on almost a quarter of the world's gas reserves.

Lots of things like that where the politics gets in the way when it comes to energy.


----------



## sptrawler (27 January 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Lots of things like that where the politics gets in the way when it comes to energy.



Western Europe is already stressed about the gas supplies coming from Russia, it does put the Countries in a bit of a precarious position, if hostilities break out.
Not much fun sitting in the dark, when you have no fuel to run your power stations, it would be nice to think it would never happen but history doesn't support the dream.


----------



## macca (27 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Western Europe is already stressed about the gas supplies coming from Russia, it does put the Countries in a bit of a precarious position, if hostilities break out.
> Not much fun sitting in the dark, when you have no fuel to run your power stations, it would be nice to think it would never happen but history doesn't support the dream.




If Mr Putin restricts the gas flow things could get very ugly in Europe within a few days.


----------



## qldfrog (27 January 2020)

On the dame stream of concepts, EU would like to build solar farms in northern Africa to feed europe with green energy
Great on paper, less when the knive head cutters are over the Mediterranean


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 January 2020)

Worth mentioning in view of recent comments that prior to concern about emissions, supply security was the first and foremost issue when it came to energy.

Go back to 1980, mention the word "energy", and it would be assumed you were talking about the oil supply situation unless it was specifically stated that you were referring to something else eg electricity.

That France relies so heavily on nuclear and the around the world there are so many 4 x ~500 MW coal-fired plants in numerous countries both owe their existence to the oil crisis which began in October 1973 and in practice ran through to the end of 1985.

Here in Australia the conversion of Kwinana power station (now closed) stages C and A to coal, building the gas pipeline from central Australia to Darwin (previously 100% reliant on oil for power) and a general push to convert all non-transport uses of fuel to electricity, gas or solid fuels were all responses to that situation as was the promotion of LPG for vehicles. Concern about oil supplies was also part, not all but part, of the reason behind building Northern power station in SA (the one that was famously blown up with explosives not too long ago) and was about a third of the reason behind the highly controversial hydro-electric dam building plans in Tasmania at the time.

That other countries, most notably Japan, were desperate to find power sources other than oil is also a major factor in why Australia became such a large exporter of coal and later gas. Coal from Queensland and NSW was a direct and easily implemented alternative to Middle East oil in Japanese power stations. Cheap, plenty of it and from a different part of the world.

There's a supply security benefit with EV's even if they're powered using coal. Not necessarily an environmental benefit in that scenario but a physical supply one given the spread of coal deposits around the world. 

Whilst oil supply isn't currently a problem, it would be naive to think it couldn't happen again. It caused outright havoc last time and as the Germans found out, in a physical shortage you can't get supply at any price.


----------



## Value Collector (28 January 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Worth mentioning in view of recent comments that prior to concern about emissions, supply security was the first and foremost issue when it came to energy.
> 
> Go back to 1980, mention the word "energy", and it would be assumed you were talking about the oil supply situation unless it was specifically stated that you were referring to something else eg electricity.
> 
> ...




Tesla has also been helping communities in remote locations and Islands reduce the need for diesel power plants buy installing solar and battery farms, using electric vehicles in these places would be a great next step.

check out this short video.


----------



## Value Collector (28 January 2020)

I used the new “Navigate on Autopilot” feature that came in a recent update for the first time today.

I was actually pretty impressed.

My car drove itself like normal, but initiated lane changes by itself when it needed to 

1, independently changed lanes to stay on the correct route when the highway split.

2, independently over took a slower car.

3, independently exited the freeway.

Of course you can turn off this feature and use standard auto pilot where it will just maintain its lane and you have to initiate lane changes yourself by using the indicator


----------



## Value Collector (28 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I used the new “Navigate on Autopilot” feature that came in a recent update for the first time today.
> 
> I was actually pretty impressed.
> 
> ...




Here is a video of what "Navigate on autopilot" is like in the model 3, you can see all the information it displays on the screen to let you know what its doing as it does it. (this is a USA vehicle though, everything is the same in Aussie cars, just switched to right hand drive and screen in reverse.)


----------



## basilio (28 January 2020)

Battery technology with Tesla  is rocketing.  This is not futuristic. Check out the video.


----------



## qldfrog (28 January 2020)

basilio said:


> Battery technology with Tesla  is rocketing.  This is not futuristic. Check out the video.




Good stuff


----------



## Value Collector (28 January 2020)

basilio said:


> Battery technology with Tesla  is rocketing.  This is not futuristic. Check out the video.





Yep, There is definitely awesome battery Tech coming in the not to distance future.

However, The current Tesla car and batteries are still amazing, if you consider the following 3 facts.

1, The current Tesla battery has a life of up to 700,000 kms, and a rest of vehicle life of 1,600,000 km life.

2, Once you have driven 700,000 km in your EV, you would have saved about $70,000 in Fuel costs, and another $35,000 in maintenance compared to a petrol car.

3, In 10 years if you have to replace the battery, it will probably cost some where between $5K and $10K, much less than the $105,000 you have already accrued in savings and the car will then be set for another 700,000 kms of driving and another $105,000 of savings before it gets to its 1,600,000 km vehicle design life.


So don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to wait for batteries to get better before the cars become worth it, they are already viable and way better than the alternatives.


----------



## qldfrog (29 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, There is definitely awesome battery Tech coming in the not to distance future.
> 
> However, The current Tesla car and batteries are still amazing, if you consider the following 3 facts.
> 
> ...



That is where the economic conflict based on usage, i drive relatively low mileage less than 20k kms a year so around 200k km in 10y
My savings will be less than a third of the 100k you quote so $30k
Tesla cost:80km minimum on the road
I never bought a car including the ute workhorse anywhere near the $50k range
Tesla remains a luxury item for me, and ev or not, i do not spend money on cars or show off items.my nature and why i got freedom in my mid 40s
I prefer seeing tesla than beemers in the street but either are still not for me


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2020)

qldfrog said:


> That is where the economic conflict based on usage, i drive relatively low mileage less than 20k kms a year so around 200k km in 10y
> My savings will be less than a third of the 100k you quote so $30k
> Tesla cost:80km minimum on the road
> I never bought a car including the ute workhorse anywhere near the $50k range
> ...




I totally understand personal finance decisions like that, my point is just that your decision shouldn’t be based on worry about battery life etc.

One of the biggest arguments I see against EVs from people in FB groups etc is that they say they are worth it because in 5 years you would have to buy a 20k battery, as I showed the math on that is simply not true.


----------



## ducati916 (29 January 2020)

TSLA is essentially a computer on wheels. AAPL missed the boat on this one, Cook is obviously no Jobs. The issue for TSLA (the stock) is cash-flow and funding until it hits that critical production number. AAPL should, in any major stumble, look to buy the company and retain Musk (with some oversight).

jog on
duc


----------



## qldfrog (29 January 2020)

ducati916 said:


> TSLA is essentially a computer on wheels. AAPL missed the boat on this one, Cook is obviously no Jobs. The issue for TSLA (the stock) is cash-flow and funding until it hits that critical production number. AAPL should, in any major stumble, look to buy the company and retain Musk (with some oversight).
> 
> jog on
> duc



Agree as the car is a computer so if dine oroperly, even with no or minimal changes in hardware, you can improve the product, as VC experience with auto drive etc
As time goes and crashes bring experience, the software will become foolproof, and better than a human driver
No doubt there


----------



## ducati916 (29 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Here is a video of what "Navigate on autopilot" is like in the model 3, you can see all the information it displays on the screen to let you know what its doing as it does it. (this is a USA vehicle though, everything is the same in Aussie cars, just switched to right hand drive and screen in reverse.)






So, a hypothetical for you:

You are using the autopilot. There is an error. An accident follows. Other driver dies.

Where does your legal (criminal) liability lie?

jog on
duc


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2020)

ducati916 said:


> So, a hypothetical for you:
> 
> You are using the autopilot. There is an error. An accident follows. Other driver dies.
> 
> ...




At the moment, in its current form, they are very clear that you are required to keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to take control of the car if needed.

I am not a lawyer, but basically they are saying in its current form the driver is responsible for the car, and autopilot features in no way eliminate the drivers need for awareness and vigilance etc etc.

you have to press “agree” to certain documents (which of course I haven’t read fully) to even unlock the features.

As we move towards fully autonomous vehicles I guess it will eventually play out in courts.

I guess it will eventually be seen as no different to a mechanical fault That causes an accident.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I guess it will eventually be seen as no different to a mechanical fault That causes an accident.




If that's the case then the car manufacturer could be responsible.

I don't see this happening, the manufacturer will insist that the driver is responsible for driving the car even when it's on autopilot, they will not expose themselves to lawsuits about autopilot failures.


----------



## sptrawler (29 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't see this happening, the manufacturer will insist that the driver is responsible for driving the car even when it's on autopilot, they will not expose themselves to lawsuits about autopilot failures.



Absolutely Rumpy, if the responsible person isn't the driver, then driver's licenses would no longer be required.


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If that's the case then the car manufacturer could be responsible.
> 
> I don't see this happening, the manufacturer will insist that the driver is responsible for driving the car even when it's on autopilot, they will not expose themselves to lawsuits about autopilot failures.




it’s their eventual aim to have autopilot car self driving doing uber style pickups, it would be hard to blame the “driver” when there isn’t a driver.

if they do get to the point where they are super safe and crashes are super rare, the risk they are taking would be low, and could be laid off on other entities via insurance etc.


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely Rumpy, if the responsible person isn't the driver, then driver's licenses would no longer be required.




it will eventually be That way, it’s hard to imagine that in 100 years tech will still be so lame that it requires a human to operate it.

so thy at means at some stage between now and 100 years things are going to change a lot.


----------



## sptrawler (29 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> it will eventually be That way, it’s hard to imagine that in 100 years tech will still be so lame that it requires a human to operate it.
> 
> so thy at means at some stage between now and 100 years things are going to change a lot.



in 100 years absolutely, but I thought we were discussing in the immediate future, where the authorities love to have someone to blame.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> it’s their eventual aim to have autopilot car self driving doing uber style pickups, it would be hard to blame the “driver” when there isn’t a driver.
> 
> if they do get to the point where they are super safe and crashes are super rare, the risk they are taking would be low, and could be laid off on other entities via insurance etc.




Can you buy shares in legal firms ? 

I'd love to have some when driverless cars become ubiquitous.


----------



## ducati916 (29 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Can you buy shares in legal firms ?
> 
> I'd love to have some when driverless cars become ubiquitous.




Of course....

https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/ethics2020/alfposting.authcheckdam.pdf

jog on
duc


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## Value Collector (29 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> in 100 years absolutely, but I thought we were discussing in the immediate future, where the authorities love to have someone to blame.




At the moment autopilot is just a tool for the driver to use, it’s still the drivers overall responsibility to operate the car safely.

 it’s many billion dollar companies aim to eliminate drivers completely, and it will slowly happen.

As I mentioned above even in the 6 months or so I have had the car there has been steady updates adding functionality to the autopilot feature, So it’s happening quite fast.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> At the moment autopilot is just a tool for the driver to use, it’s still the drivers overall responsibility to operate the car safely.
> 
> it’s many billion dollar companies aim to eliminate drivers completely, and it will slowly happen.
> 
> As I mentioned above even in the 6 months or so I have had the car there has been steady updates adding functionality to the autopilot feature, So it’s happening quite fast.




Seems like all you have to do is put some sort of a weight on the wheel and autopilot will take over.

Some fool will tie something heavy enough to the wheel to have the autopilot on all the time and will then doze off and wake up dead.


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Seems like all you have to do is put some sort of a weight on the wheel and autopilot will take over.
> 
> Some fool will tie something heavy enough to the wheel to have the autopilot on all the time and will then doze off and wake up dead.




Yeah, there are products already on e market that you can attach to the wheel to simulate your hand, so you don’t get the warning every 2 minutes to put your hands back on the wheel.

But I find just having my elbow on the arm rest and my hand resting on the bottom of the wheel does the trick, nice and comfortable.

Also, when I drove the Sydney Brisbane route, and was eating etc, just resting your knee against the wheel also works.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah, there are products already on e market that you can attach to the wheel to simulate your hand, so you don’t get the warning every 2 minutes to put your hands back on the wheel.
> 
> But I find just having my elbow on the arm rest and my hand resting on the bottom of the wheel does the trick, nice and comfortable.
> 
> Also, when I drove the Sydney Brisbane route, and was eating etc, just resting your knee against the wheel also works.




Any problems finding charging stations Sydney-Brisbane ?


----------



## Value Collector (30 January 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Any problems finding charging stations Sydney-Brisbane ?




Not at all, Tesla have placed them about every 200 - 250 kms, All the way from Brisbane to Adelaide.

The car automatically plans the charging stops you need to make along the way and takes you to them.

So you end up stoping about every 3 hours for 15 mins or so.

I stopped 4 times which is the same as I would have to do in a petrol car when you factor in a fuel stop, a couple of pee breaks and grabbing some lunch.

—————-
also, you can drive as far north as cairns using the Qld government charging network.


----------



## Value Collector (30 January 2020)

Charging locations in Australia.


----------



## ducati916 (30 January 2020)

https://www.worth.com/which-new-electric-vehicle-can-take-on-tesla/

jog on
duc


----------



## sptrawler (30 January 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Not at all, Tesla have placed them about every 200 - 250 kms, All the way from Brisbane to Adelaide.
> 
> The car automatically plans the charging stops you need to make along the way and takes you to them.
> 
> ...



Be a little carefull with that charging map, when I looked at the charging points in Country W.A, a lot didn't have a standard plug setup.


----------



## Value Collector (30 January 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Be a little carefull with that charging map, when I looked at the charging points in Country W.A, a lot didn't have a standard plug setup.




I only use Tesla supercharges, They are mark orange on that plug share app.

But that Map is interactive, and you can click on each point and see what charging equipment it has, get reviews and see photos etc etc.

Some of the people that like to road trip off the major highways will need to own 2 adapters if they plan on using some if the older charging sites.

But most of the new ones are moving to the standard plug that fits straight into the Model 3.

Also, once at your destination you can charge of any power point.


----------



## basilio (1 February 2020)

Bit of fun with electric cars.


----------



## sptrawler (3 February 2020)

Who says people are stupid, top auto engineers say ICE car sales to continue declining untill 2025, as electrics move in. Also there will be a steady reduction, in the amount of workers required, in auto assembly.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/have-we-hit-peak-automotive-production--123175.html?trackLink=SMH3
From the article:
_While Denner acknowledged a rise in electric vehicle production would create job opportunities in the future, he expected it would have an impact on jobs in the short-term.

Bosch revealed that only one human worker is needed in the production of an electric motor, compared with 10 workers for a diesel injection system and three for a gasoline system_.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 February 2020)

Just a random thought, but wouldn't it be great if Formula 1 racing went electric ?

Racing improves the breed they say, I can't think of a better way to get great engineering minds focussed on the future.


----------



## sptrawler (3 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Just a random thought, but wouldn't it be great if Formula 1 racing went electric ?
> 
> Racing improves the breed they say, I can't think of a better way to get great engineering minds focussed on the future.



They have Rumpy, it is formula E.

https://www.fiaformulae.com/


----------



## sptrawler (3 February 2020)

Want to see an autonomous driving vehicle, check this out.



The problem is it will need trainer wheels at a stop sign. 
Just imagine, Perth to Kalgoorlie, wind in your hair, kicked back reading a book, what a life that's what I call easyrider.


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## SirRumpole (3 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> They have Rumpy, it is formula E.
> 
> https://www.fiaformulae.com/




Good , but chicken feed compared to the money that goes into F1.


----------



## sptrawler (3 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Good , but chicken feed compared to the money that goes into F1.



It's all got to start somewhere.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Want to see an autonomous driving vehicle, check this out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The motorbike courier riders must be worried.


----------



## sptrawler (3 February 2020)

The plug in hybrid Mitsubishi Outlander, sounds like a reasonable package, they just have to drop the price $20k.

https://www.drive.com.au/new-car-re...der-phev-es-review-123177.html?trackLink=SMH2


----------



## orr (4 February 2020)

Help me here!
There is only ONE electric car company that counts.* ONE *....TSLA. And it's stock goes from $560US to $786US  in the last 5 days....and from this thread?
I'm glad my information comes from elsewhere....

And under this government the opportunities re Australia ... are 'Elsewhere'...


----------



## sptrawler (4 February 2020)

orr said:


> Help me here!
> There is only ONE electric car company that counts.* ONE *....TSLA. And it's stock goes from $560US to $786US  in the last 5 days....and from this thread?
> I'm glad my information comes from elsewhere....
> 
> And under this government the opportunities re Australia ... are 'Elsewhere'...



Actually one of the biggest posters on this thread owns a Tesla model 3, so there is plenty of info and interest.
I'm not sure anyone has Tesla shares though, I know everyone wishes they did.


----------



## Value Collector (4 February 2020)

orr said:


> Help me here!
> There is only ONE electric car company that counts.* ONE *....TSLA. And it's stock goes from $560US to $786US  in the last 5 days....and from this thread?
> I'm glad my information comes from elsewhere....
> 
> And under this government the opportunities re Australia ... are 'Elsewhere'...




Why don't you start a TSLA stock discussion thread if you want to discuss the specifics relating to TSLA stock.

This thread is more about electric cars and related technology in general. 

I own a Tesla car, but I own Zero TSLA stock, and don't really follow it closely.


----------



## orr (5 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Why don't you start a TSLA stock discussion thread if you want to discuss the specifics relating to TSLA stock.
> 
> This thread is more about electric cars and related technology in general.
> 
> I own a Tesla car, but I own Zero TSLA stock, and don't really follow it closely.




Sorry correction... $560US  to $922US (as I post)  in five days...  It appears I may possibly have incorrectly made the assumption that this had some relevance to the thread..


----------



## tech/a (5 February 2020)

One of those life changing opportunities right in front of all of us right now.
I know a few people who own enough Tesla Shares to change their life.

one bought under $100 and another at Just under $200.

me I don’t have any but am excited and happy for friends and family who do.

some valuations go as high as over $10000

which I’d see as fanciful until I see Berkshire Hathaways stock price.

if Space X is floated I’ll be on it in a flash!


----------



## sptrawler (6 February 2020)

Interesting point made by Angus Taylor regarding electric cars, it sounds as though a national strategy is being developed, which will be good especially if it legislates standard voltages and plugs for electric vehicle charging infrastructure.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...cores-untapped-potential-20200202-p53wx3.html
From the article:
_Federal Energy and Emissions Reduction Minister Angus Taylor said as part of a $3.5 billion climate solutions package, the government was developing a National Electric Vehicle Strategy, to be finalised by the middle of the year.

He said the strategy would ensure a "planned and managed transition" to the new vehicle technology so that Australians who "choose to adopt new technologies are supported in doing so"_.

IMO that is exactly what the Federal Government should be getting involved in, something that requires standard roll out across Australia.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> IMO that is exactly what the Federal Government should be getting involved in, something that requires standard roll out across Australia.




The Federal and State governments could get the ball rolling by converting their fleets to EV's to set an example.

They can't expect others to do what they don't can they ?


----------



## sptrawler (6 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The Federal and State governments could get the ball rolling by converting their fleets to EV's to set an example.
> 
> The can't expect others to do what they don't can they ?



That is a good idea Rumpy, if the infra structure is in place I can't see why they wouldn't do it, it isn't as though there is an Australian car industry to protect.
Who knows it may well encourage a small new industry, like the Bolwell brothers.

From the earlier article I posted:
_Infrastructure Australia, the government's independent infrastructure adviser, has called for the fast-tracking of a national charging network to allow for a smooth transition to the electrification of the transport sector - particularly along highways, in regional Australia and in urban centres_.

It appears there is a lot more going on behind the scenes than is immediately obvious, also it probably isn't as attention grabbing for the media, when it is quietly happening in the background.

My guess is there will be a big push later in the year, to roll out a standard charger network, it is better IMO to have the technical side organised before getting started.
At the moment the car makers haven't really agreed on a standard plug, let alone voltage, my guess is Australia will say any electric vehicle sold in Australia must be able to take "x" plug and 'Y' charging voltage.
Similar to what happened with mobile phones, Australia is too big and sparsely populated to have vehicles stuck half way across the Nullabor, because they have a different plug or the voltage isn't suitable.
The problem is picking a plug and voltage, that future proofs the infrastructure, there is no point in pulling it out of thin air, a lot of thought and planning will be required.
Especially on the voltage, from memory Tesla's have a 480v system, which isn't much good if the place where the charger is in the middle of nowhere, only has a 250v mains supplying it a step up transformers would be required.
Just an example.
It actually becomes a safety issue IMO.


----------



## BlindSquirrel (6 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The motorbike courier riders must be worried.



VMT recently signed an agreement to supply eMoped with electric bikes for ridesharing, couriering makes sense in this space too.
Just need them to get autonomous as well.



Regardless, I reckon legislation will require a rider/driver to be present in vehicles for quite some time yet.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> That is a good idea Rumpy, if the infra structure is in place I can't see why they wouldn't do it, it isn't as though there is an Australian car industry to protect.
> Who knows it may well encourage a small new industry, like the Bolwell brothers.
> 
> From the earlier article I posted:
> ...




Yes indeed, which I why I think that a large scale commitment in the form of government car fleets will encourage standardisation. You can bet that the fleet managers and drivers will be up in arms if they can't get their cars charged reliably.


----------



## qldfrog (6 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes indeed, which I why I think that a large scale commitment in the form of government car fleets will encourage standardisation. You can bet that the fleet managers and drivers will be up in arms if they can't get their cars charged reliably.



The obvious issue is that it does not make economic sense, nor environmental in many state inc looking at co2 emissions.
So it has to be taken as a subsidy , tax paid, for a technical choice.
Why not but as most of gov involvment deciding winners is usually ending in waste of resources
Not always: look at solar subsidies but often.
We are back to individual vs state, the usual socialism vs freedom of choice and decision debate


----------



## sptrawler (6 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> The obvious issue is that it does not make economic sense, nor environmental in many state inc looking at co2 emissions.
> So it has to be taken as a subsidy , tax paid, for a technical choice.
> Why not but as most of gov involvment deciding winners is usually ending in waste of resources
> Not always: look at solar subsidies but often.
> We are back to individual vs state, the usual socialism vs freedom of choice and decision debate



The thing about electric cars, they are mobile, so can move anywhere in Australia, so it will require the Federal Government to intervene and make it an Australian standard that all the States have to comply with.
There is no point W.A going a different way to the rest of Australia, then a vehicle from the East wont function in W.A


----------



## sptrawler (6 February 2020)

Here is an interesting response to Boris Johnson's statement, the U.K will stop ICE vehicles by 2035 and to me the whole crux of the problem when the Government deems something. They end up wearing any financial problems associated with it, whether it is their fault or not, just my opinion.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/uk-au...son-s-car-ban-plan-123204.html?trackLink=SMH2
From the article:
_A major automotive industry body in the UK has criticised British Prime Minister Boris Johnson's announcement that his government will ban the sale of new petrol, diesel and hybrid cars in the United Kingdom from 2035._
_Johnson brought the timing forward after climate experts suggested a 2040 ban would be too late if the UK wanted to meet its target of zero carbon emissions by 2050._

_The Prime Minister added that, ideally, the ban would be introduced even earlier than 2035._
_The inclusion of hybrid vehicles in the ban is also an update on the original plans – which were first introduced in July 2017 – and will mean consumers can only purchase new electric or hydrogen vehicle._

_"If the UK is to lead the global zero emissions agenda, we need a competitive marketplace and a competitive business environment to encourage manufacturers to sell and build here._

_“A date without a plan will merely destroy value today.”_

_"Consumer confidence is not returning to the market and will not be helped by the government’s decision to add further confusion and instability by moving the goalposts on the end of sale of internal combustion engine cars,” Hawes said._

_“While ambition is understandable, as we must address climate change and air quality concerns, blanket bans do not help short-term consumer confidence_.”

Interesting times IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Here is an interesting response to Boris Johnson's statement, the U.K will stop ICE vehicles by 2035 and to me the whole crux of the problem when the Government deems something. They end up wearing any financial problems associated with it, whether it is their fault or not, just my opinion.




As I said before, let the government show the way instead of dictating to the plebs.


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## sptrawler (6 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> As I said before, let the government show the way instead of dictating to the plebs.



The Government should first have a robust feasible plan, both economically and technically, before making a statement of fact.
Because IMO the statement of fact becomes everyones reality, when it may not be achievable, but it may in fact cause chaos and social upheaval.
IMO the Governments would be much better served, funding the rolling out of a comprehensive EV charging network, then when it is complete introducing tax benefits and penalties to encourage the uptake.
If the uptake isn't quick enough, then put in place a date that ICE cars will be banned, at least the infrastructure is in place to support the ban.
Just making a date in the future, is a load of BS, that helps no one.
Just my thoughts.


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## qldfrog (8 February 2020)

Chinese micro EV car
A nice city car
https://www.autocarindia.com/news/auto-expo-2020-great-wall-r1-ev-showcased-416014
Around 15k aud in China


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## sptrawler (9 February 2020)

News on the electric car front, very interesting and fairly comprehensive article.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/why-e...t-taxpayer-dollars-123213.html?trackLink=SMH0
From the article:
*The Australian automotive industry is divided over whether taxpayer dollars should be used to boost electric vehicle sales or help pay for a national charging network.*
Car companies have also warned against a ban on petrol and diesel cars because, they say, the profits from these mass market models are crucial to funding advancements in battery technology.

The Federal Government is preparing to rollout an electric car plan that would bring Australia into line with other countries such as Norway and the UK, which wants to ban petrol and diesel engines by 2035.


During a meeting in Sydney between the Electric Vehicle Council of Australia and the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries this week, an industry insider warned the electric-car lobby group that it “could become a cart with no horse without car manufacturers selling a range of products, including petrol and diesel engines, which continue to pay the way for the industry”.


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## sptrawler (10 February 2020)

News on the autonomous driverless cars.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/nuro-...car-for-road-tests-123215.html?trackLink=SMH3:
From the article:
_Thanks to a temporary exemption from some of the country's low-speed vehicle requires, the company can deploy up to 5000 R2 delivery vans during the test period.

NHTSA says it "will closely monitor Nuro’s operations during and after that time" with Nuro required to submit mandatory reports about the R2 and its autonomous driving functions. It is also required to engage with communities where it will test the vehicle.

"Since this is a low-speed self-driving delivery vehicle, certain features that the Department traditionally required – such as mirrors and a windshield for vehicles carrying drivers – no longer make sense,” said Elaine Chao, the US secretary of transportation, said in a prepared statement_.


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## sptrawler (10 February 2020)

Not exactly an electric car, but another toy along the same lines.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...llion-on-hydrogen-powered-superyacht/11949380


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## sptrawler (11 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Not exactly an electric car, but another toy along the same lines.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...llion-on-hydrogen-powered-superyacht/11949380



The ABC has now retracted the statement that Bill Gates bought the superyacht.
I wonder why they printed it without checking it, maybe ABC Fact Check can do a self check, as they are so critical of everyone else making false statements?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...t-been-sold-to-bill-gates-sinot-says/11949380
Another example of glass houses and brick throwing IMO.


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## qldfrog (11 February 2020)

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/new-nikola-electric-pickup-badger-details-2898314/
Nice
Electric hydrogen ute and powerhouse


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## sptrawler (11 February 2020)

BMW to plug in hybrid, very soon.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/moto...n/news-story/0da96ff2afb735cb56b7c32cedab9647


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## Smurf1976 (11 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> IMO that is exactly what the Federal Government should be getting involved in, something that requires standard roll out across Australia.



FWIW they're acting because there's a few electricity companies who are going to do it for them if they don't.


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## sptrawler (11 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> FWIW they're acting because there's a few electricity companies who are going to do it for them if they don't.



As long as it brings about a standard roll out, that is the main thing. IMO


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## orr (11 February 2020)

tech/a said:


> One of those life changing opportunities right in front of all of us right now.
> I know a few people who own enough Tesla Shares to change their life.
> 
> one bought under $100 and another at Just under $200.
> ...




Tech; You don't have to go through the whole durge(that's an unfair critique these two guy's work) ... but from about the 23min mark comes the tickler to an IPO for  Teslas StarLink, from the CEO. And the Australias communications Authority's ok to Starlinks implementation.


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## SirRumpole (11 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> During a meeting in Sydney between the Electric Vehicle Council of Australia and the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries this week, an industry insider warned the electric-car lobby group that it “could become a cart with no horse without car manufacturers selling a range of products, including petrol and diesel engines, which continue to pay the way for the industry”.




Yep, that petrol excise revenue loss is going to worry a lot of people.

The EV manufacturers basically want a free ride on the back of the ICE vehicles.


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## Smurf1976 (11 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, that petrol excise revenue loss is going to worry a lot of people.
> 
> The EV manufacturers basically want a free ride on the back of the ICE vehicles.




Agreed although I'll add that the common thinking that fuel excise is a road user charge is only indirectly true. It does raise revenue, and governments do fund roads, but it's an indirect one in so far as an EV pays no such tax whilst my lawnmower sure isn't being driven down a public street despite using petrol.

It is thus not essential that fuel excise is replaced by another tax on vehicle use. It could instead be replaced by higher income tax, reforming the GST or indeed any other tax. The one thing I'll say with certainty though is that taxing electricity is, politically, outright impossible so forget that one. Closest it might go is a tax on commercially operated fast chargers but you won't be paying a special tax on electricity used for charging at home, that's political suicide.


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## sptrawler (11 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yep, that petrol excise revenue loss is going to worry a lot of people.
> 
> The EV manufacturers basically want a free ride on the back of the ICE vehicles.



From a manufacturers point of view, they will be easier to build, a lot less parts, a lot less labour and a lot less warranty work.
But they will want to make a lot more profit, not sell the car a lot cheaper.


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## Value Collector (11 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The EV manufacturers basically want a free ride on the back of the ICE vehicles.




I see it as a non issue, the average family car only generates a few hundred dollars in revenue each year.

Simply keep the fuel tax as it is and just slowly raise the rego across all vehicles if the petrol revenue decreases over time, that way petrol cars continue to pay extra and electric cars while electric cars slowly help pick up some slack over time too, that way electric will always be a bit cheaper, call the difference a pollution tax or air quality tax.


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## sptrawler (11 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I see it as a non issue, the average family car only generates a few hundred dollars in revenue each year.
> .



I think one of the main loss of revenue will be from losses in ICE vehicle maintenance and repairs.
The ICE vehicle has a lot of wearing parts and service issues eg coolant system, engine service, gearbox service, drive train service, engine management diagnostics and repairs.
These systems and the routine service, repair of the systems employs a lot of people and entails replacing components on a regular basis.
The loss of income tax on wages for service personnel and GST on the service components wont be insignificant. IMO


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## Value Collector (11 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think one of the main loss of revenue will be from losses in ICE vehicle maintenance and repairs.
> The ICE vehicle has a lot of wearing parts and service issues eg coolant system, engine service, gearbox service, drive train service, engine management diagnostics and repairs.
> These systems and the routine service, repair of the systems employs a lot of people and entails replacing components on a regular basis.
> The loss of income tax on wages for service personnel and GST on the service components wont be insignificant. IMO




Thats a net plus to the economy though. 

if people aren’t spending money repairing cars, they can spend it elsewhere.

who knows, if you aren’t spending $350 every 6 months on servicing, you might instead spend it on car washing or even restaurants, yoga lessons or a million other things.


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## sptrawler (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Thats a net plus to the economy though.
> 
> if people aren’t spending money repairing cars, they can spend it elsewhere.
> 
> who knows, if you aren’t spending $350 every 6 months on servicing, you might instead spend it on car washing or even restaurants, yoga lessons or a million other things.



What about the people who no longer have a job servicing/repairing a car, or selling the parts required, or those that make the parts required air cleaners, oil filters etc?
It's nice to think every job that doesn't need paying for frees up money, but it also adds to the welfare side of the ledger.


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## Humid (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I see it as a non issue, the average family car only generates a few hundred dollars in revenue each year.
> 
> Simply keep the fuel tax as it is and just slowly raise the rego across all vehicles if the petrol revenue decreases over time, that way petrol cars continue to pay extra and electric cars while electric cars slowly help pick up some slack over time too, that way electric will always be a bit cheaper, call the difference a pollution tax or air quality tax.




A few hundred dollars really?
What is the average family car?


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## Smurf1976 (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Simply keep the fuel tax as it is and just slowly raise the rego across all vehicles if the petrol revenue decreases over time, that way petrol cars continue to pay extra and electric cars while electric cars slowly help pick up some slack over time too, that way electric will always be a bit cheaper, call the difference a pollution tax or air quality tax.




If I was wanting to be elected then I'd be very certain to tie the increased rego to phasing out of fuel tax so that an average motorist paid not a cent more. I'd also make sure this was done before any significant number of people owned an EV since for EV owners there's no sweetener in the deal.

A higher rego tax, whilst retaining fuel excise, would not unreasonably be represented as a "tax on the poor" since it would indeed be the owners of older cars, who are typically lower income, who'd face the tax hike assuming it's done at a time when most new vehicle sales are electric or hydrogen.

Any such move would also need agreement of the states since rego is a state charge whilst fuel excise is federal.


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

Humid said:


> A few hundred dollars really?
> What is the average family car?




40 liters of fuel a week, produces about $600 in revenue per year.


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> What about the people who no longer have a job servicing/repairing a car, or selling the parts required, or those that make the parts required air cleaners, oil filters etc?
> It's nice to think every job that doesn't need paying for frees up money, but it also adds to the welfare side of the ledger.




No different to any other group that slowly got made redundant, for example when word processors made rooms of typists unemployed, it will happy slowly and the industry will adjust.

We have safety nets, the older guys will retire, worst mechanics will hit the dole lines, younger ones will gradually transition to working on electric cars while some filter out into other trades and businesses.

There will some work to do on electric cars, so it’s not like employed in the sector will go to zero, it will just gradually reduce over a 20 year period.


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> If I was wanting to be elected then I'd be very certain to tie the increased rego to phasing out of fuel tax so that an average motorist paid not a cent more. I'd also make sure this was done before any significant number of people owned an EV since for EV owners there's no sweetener in the deal.
> 
> A higher rego tax, whilst retaining fuel excise, would not unreasonably be represented as a "tax on the poor" since it would indeed be the owners of older cars, who are typically lower income, who'd face the tax hike assuming it's done at a time when most new vehicle sales are electric or hydrogen.
> 
> Any such move would also need agreement of the states since rego is a state charge whilst fuel excise is federal.




I see maintaining the fuel excise as is, while increasing rego by about $6 for every 1% increase in non petrol cars as reasonable. 

after all petrol causes air pollution, and that has costs associated with it to, it’s not just about roads.


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## Humid (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Thats a net plus to the economy though.
> 
> if people aren’t spending money repairing cars, they can spend it elsewhere.
> 
> who knows, if you aren’t spending $350 every 6 months on servicing, you might instead spend it on car washing or even restaurants, yoga lessons or a million other things.




Or they could buy some pollution belching Sydney Airport shares....


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## Humid (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> 40 liters of fuel a week, produces about $600 in revenue per year.



Sorry I thought excise was 40 odd cents


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

Humid said:


> Or they could buy some pollution belching Sydney Airport shares....




The airport itself doesn’t pollute much, it’s the planes that land there that do, but who knows where the future technology will improve planes or their fuels, I support improvement there to.

But even with current technology planes actually create less pollution per passenger mile than cars do.

Also, planes pay taxes every time they land and take off, so they already provide revenue to the government.


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## BlindSquirrel (12 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> A higher rego tax, whilst retaining fuel excise, would not unreasonably be represented as a "tax on the poor" since it would indeed be the owners of older cars, who are typically lower income, who'd face the tax hike assuming it's done at a time when most new vehicle sales are electric or hydrogen.




A major quibble that an opposing argument would have to this is that there would need to be a sliding scale determined by the distance traveled each year. Otherwise couriers would receive much more value for their tax dollars compared to granny who does 1000km a year.

Perhaps tax the tyres? More tyre wear would result from more KM traveled and also be a anti-social deterrent for hoons.
It wouldn't help those from the bush though, some of those roads can tear the rubber up pretty quickly.


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## Humid (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> The airport itself doesn’t pollute much, it’s the planes that land there that do, but who knows where the future technology will improve planes or their fuels, I support improvement there to.
> 
> But even with current technology planes actually create less pollution per passenger mile than cars do.
> 
> Also, planes pay taxes every time they land and take off, so they already provide revenue to the government.




Bit like the power station itself doesn't polite much just them coal fired boilers
Seriously


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## moXJO (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> .
> 
> We have safety nets, the older guys will retire, worst mechanics will hit the dole lines, younger ones will gradually transition to working on electric cars while some filter out into other trades and businesses.
> 
> There will some work to do on electric cars, so it’s not like employed in the sector will go to zero, it will just gradually reduce over a 20 year period.




Electric cars are a completely different beast compared to ice vehicles. Even many auto electricians are not interested in touching them. 
There's more than just mechanic, there's also parts and part manufacturing, additives, and a host of other industries. 

It will have an effect, but change is change.


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

Humid said:


> Bit like the power station itself doesn't polite much just them coal fired boilers
> Seriously




That’s pretty bad anology.

Cars pollute, not the freeways.
Planes pollute, not the airport.

As I said, I am all for new technology that would make planes better, just like I am all for technology that makes cars better.

But, also as I said planes are already more Efficient per passenger mile than the average car, so it’s a bit non sensical to try an trash planes.

planes also contribute to global dimming, which is helping keep the earth slightly cooler than it would be without them.


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Electric cars are a completely different beast compared to ice vehicles. Even many auto electricians are not interested in touching them.
> There's more than just mechanic, there's also parts and part manufacturing, additives, and a host of other industries.
> 
> It will have an effect, but change is change.




most of the stuff that is serviceable on an electric car could be done by a mechanic with very little transition training.

changing tyres, replacing air filters, changing brake fluid, cleaning brake calipers etc etc 

it’s not rocket science stuff.


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## moXJO (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> most of the stuff that is serviceable on an electric car could be done by a mechanic with very little transition training.
> 
> changing tyres, replacing air filters, changing brake fluid, cleaning brake calipers etc etc
> 
> it’s not rocket science stuff.



There is not enough money in that to run a shop.
A dedicated shop or low competition maybe.  But smaller businesses would not turn enough.


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## Humid (12 February 2020)

Actually roads polute quite heavily
Particularly after first rain
How would your income go if the planes stopped tomorrow
Planes use most fuel on take off and I'm pretty sure they do a lot of that at Sydney airport
But hey if your Tesla is offsetting it 
Good onya
Mate


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

Humid said:


> Actually roads polute quite heavily
> Particularly after first rain
> How would your income go if the planes stopped tomorrow
> Planes use most fuel on take off and I'm pretty sure they do a lot of that at Sydney airport
> ...



 Again, the stuff washing off the roads comes from the cars.

my Tesla offsets the pollution that would be caused by me continuing to drive petrol cars, I didn’t bring up airports you did.

dude, I am not sure what you point is   are you saying as long as planes exist we shouldn’t be thinking about moving our road fleet to more efficient technologies? Because that would be silly.

If more efficient planes were available in the market place of course I believe they should be used to gradually replace older technologies.

probably 4% of my dividends come from Sydney airport, so it’s not a big deal for me, but planes aren’t going to be stopping any time soon, and if they did, all those acres of Sydney water front land could be used in other ways.


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> There is not enough money in that to run a shop.
> A dedicated shop or low competition maybe.  But smaller businesses would not turn enough.



 Yeah, some of them would close for sure, I don’t see an issue. I explained above I think older guys would retire, some bad mechanics would hit the dole lines, and other would transition to servicing electric cars or move to other industries absorbing the $$$ people are saving


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## Humid (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Again, the stuff washing off the roads comes from the cars.
> 
> my Tesla offsets the pollution that would be caused by me continuing to drive petrol cars, I didn’t bring up airports you did.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure of my point either


----------



## moXJO (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah, some of them would close for sure, I don’t see an issue. I explained above I think older guys would retire, some bad mechanics would hit the dole lines, and other would transition to servicing electric cars or move to other industries absorbing the $$$ people are saving



There are some dramatic changes to older industries going on. Interesting to watch over the next few years and decades.


----------



## moXJO (12 February 2020)

Humid said:


> I'm not sure of my point either



Pretty sure your original point was something to do with how awesome I am. 
That's the general vibe I get from everyone's posts, ever.


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## Smurf1976 (12 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Electric cars are a completely different beast compared to ice vehicles. Even many auto electricians are not interested in touching them.




The existing job that seems closest is an industrial electrician.

Most of that’s mechanical or at least involves mechanical things in some way. Motors, hoists, control systems and so on.


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## Smurf1976 (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I see maintaining the fuel excise as is, while increasing rego by about $6 for every 1% increase in non petrol cars as reasonable.




Politically I think that’s a no go as with anything that involves a tax hike which is aimed at, in practice, largely the lower half economically as would be the case once EV’s become mainstream.

Labor just learned that one last year on another issue and won’t forget in a hurry.

If I was to take a guess as to what will actually happen then the answer is nothing directly.

Fuel excise drops.

Australian government cuts back on various grants to the states. Nothing new about that as such.

It then becomes a matter for the states to either bump up rego charges of their own accord, put tolls on roads or whatever else they want to do to raise money. 

At a guess there’ll come a point where they collectively want the GST increased and that’s an easier sell politically once they say something about schools and hospitals as they will.

John Hewson’s 15% GST will end up being implemented, it’ll just be ~40 years later than he proposed it.


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## Value Collector (12 February 2020)

Regos go up every year anyway,


Smurf1976 said:


> Politically I think that’s a no go as with anything that involves a tax hike which is aimed at, in practice, largely the lower half economically as would be the case once EV’s become mainstream.
> 
> Labor just learned that one last year on another issue and won’t forget in a hurry.
> 
> ...




The Government already subsidises Solar Panels etc, Maybe until Ev's are over 20% of the market they just take the hit to the revenues, They did that will LPG cars, they avoided putting excise on LPG for Years, and eventually eased into it over a number of years.


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## Humid (12 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> Pretty sure your original point was something to do with how awesome I am.
> That's the general vibe I get from everyone's posts, ever.




I'm not your father

In Darth Vader voice


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## Humid (12 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Regos go up every year anyway,
> 
> 
> The Government already subsidises Solar Panels etc, Maybe until Ev's are over 20% of the market they just take the hit to the revenues, They did that will LPG cars, they avoided putting excise on LPG for Years, and eventually eased into it over a number of years.




_“Under the Small-scale Renewable Energy Scheme *the reduction in the cost of your solar panel is not a rebate*. You will not qualify for any Government-based financial recompense at the completion of any process relating to STCs.”_

I think what our bureaucratic friends are trying to get across is that the thousands of dollars you get off your solar system price (usually by assigning the rights to its STCs to your installer) does not actually come from the government.


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## qldfrog (15 February 2020)

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...uge-battery-for-400-mile-tesla-rivaling-range
Of interest is the quest for efficiency with the move to high voltage motor and so reduce cooling need.
Wise move in my opinion


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## Value Collector (15 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.greencarreports.com/new...uge-battery-for-400-mile-tesla-rivaling-range
> Of interest is the quest for efficiency with the move to high voltage motor and so reduce cooling need.
> Wise move in my opinion




May the 13 minute mark in this video there is some interesting information about how the Model 3 uses waste heat from the motor to maintain battery temp, in cold weather (probably not a big deal in Australia)


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## macca (15 February 2020)

Fuel excise is now 42.3 pl so if the average Ks are about 15 k pa and the average use in city traffic is 10l/100k that would mean 30l a week so 30 x 42.3 plus gst is 13.95 per week or $725 per year.

Over a year that is a Lot of income to the Feds, if they were to apply a "road users tax" of $725 pa then it would probably need a monthly payment plan.

It would be a hard sell though, imagine the uproar, ye gods !!


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2020)

macca said:


> Fuel excise is now 42.3 pl so if the average Ks are about 15 k pa and the average use in city traffic is 10l/100k that would mean 30l a week so 30 x 42.3 plus gst is 13.95 per week or $725 per year.
> 
> Over a year that is a Lot of income to the Feds, if they were to apply a "road users tax" of $725 pa then it would probably need a monthly payment plan.
> 
> It would be a hard sell though, imagine the uproar, ye gods !!




A gradual increase of registration of $15 a year would hardly be noticed, remember electric cars will increase only at a gradual pace.

if 1% of cars are electric, the government misses out on $725 per 100 cars on the road, But it only has to increase rego by $7.25 across those 100 cars to make that back.


----------



## qldfrog (15 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> A gradual increase of registration of $15 a year would hardly be noticed, remember electric cars will increase only at a gradual pace.
> 
> if 1% of cars are electric, the government misses out on $725 per 100 cars on the road, But it only has to increase rego by $7.25 across those 100 cars to make that back.



Why would the 99 ice have to subsidize the EV
Just add 725 ev rego surcharge


----------



## Humid (15 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> A gradual increase of registration of $15 a year would hardly be noticed, remember electric cars will increase only at a gradual pace.
> 
> if 1% of cars are electric, the government misses out on $725 per 100 cars on the road, But it only has to increase rego by $7.25 across those 100 cars to make that back.




All the families I know have 2 cars so your rubbery figure of a few hundred bux is about 400% out


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Why would the 99 ice have to subsidize the EV
> Just add 725 ev rego surcharge




Because they are reducing the air quality in our cities, think of it as an air pollution tax, and an Incentive to move the vehicle fleet away from ICE cars that pump cancer causing chemicals directly into the air in our cities, which contributes to the 1000’s of people that die each year due to air quality.


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2020)

Humid said:


> All the families I know have 2 cars so your rubbery figure of a few hundred bux is about 400% out




My figures we per car, but the figures go buy liters of fuel burnt, so if you are splitting the driving between two cars it might end up being roughly the same.


----------



## Value Collector (15 February 2020)

Also keep in mind, cigarette smokers already pay upwards of $30 a week tax on their smokes.

So a petrol car driver being asked to pay an extra $15 each year in rego to help bring about cleaner air quality is minimal.


----------



## fiftyeight (15 February 2020)

Not sure if this has been posted before, if not it is worth a watch


----------



## Humid (15 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> My figures we per car, but the figures go buy liters of fuel burnt, so if you are splitting the driving between two cars it might end up being roughly the same.




Ffs
At 40cents it’s not a few hundred in one car let alone 2
And the guvment don’t rebate solar


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> So a petrol car driver being asked to pay an extra $15 each year in rego to help bring about cleaner air quality is minimal.



It'll be a lot more than $15 if the intention is to offset lost excise revenue since apart from collector cars, there's basically nobody who's only using 35 litres of fuel each year.

As for the smokers, well smoking is old fashioned, obsolete and no longer required. It's something that's entirely optional and has basically zero benefits with a rather long list of downsides from ruining paintwork through to causing death. 

Petrol fumes aren't good, but they're nowhere even remotely close to tobacco in terms of the health damage.


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

Humid said:


> Ffs
> At 40cents it’s not a few hundred in one car let alone 2
> And the guvment don’t rebate solar




Elighten is then, how much revenue do you then the average family generate in excise from fuel.


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Petrol fumes aren't good, but they're nowhere even remotely close to tobacco in terms of the health damage.




Check out the stats and see how many people die each year from air pollution, of which vehicle related smog is a major contributor.

I see nothing wrong with fuel excise being allowed to hang around as a tax on those contributing to air pollution in our population centers.

Think of it this way.

If person A decides to take the low priced car, and in doing that drives around belching poison gas, is it really that bad to have a tax on them based on the fuel they burn?

and 

If person B decides to buy a higher priced car that doesn’t blow poison gas into bystanders face, is it really that bad that they get a portion of their road usage subsidized? After all they have already spent more money and everyone is benefiting from their investment


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I see nothing wrong with fuel excise being allowed to hang around as a tax on those contributing to air pollution in our population centers.
> 
> Think of it this way.
> 
> If person A decides to take the low priced car, and in doing that drives around belching poison gas, is it really that bad to have a tax on them based on the fuel they burn?




It sounds awfully like a tax on the lower half economically.

Labor was accused of that over another issue and won't want it to happen again anytime soon. Last thing the ALP wants is to be seen as a party for the rich, that just cost them an election.

I doubt the Greens will be keen either since social justice etc has always been one of their principles and high fixed costs to simply have a car is one sure way to hit those toward the bottom. Plus if you look at their policies well they're quite clearly trying to shift away from the perception that they're the party for the inner city. Note for example their stated support for heavy industry, metallic ores mining and even the very same aluminium smelters the party for many years labelled with the derogatory term of "sunset industries" whilst advocating closure. So be it, if they're keen on a viable way forward economically then that's not a bad thing but in this context the point is they're aiming for broader appeal.

Coalition won't likely go there given they've positioned themselves on the opposite side politically. I don't agree with that move but it would be too soon for them to do shift position in the medium term.

Even less likely that One Nation would have any interest in it.

So my thinking is there's no chance of it actually being implemented since nobody who's likely to be in government or holding the balance of power is going to be keen on the idea.

Far more likely they'll let fuel excise taper off as sales drop and in due course it's the trigger for some form of broader taxation reform. If I was to take a guess - we might see excise scrapped outright at that point and a carbon price introduced on all fossil fuels not just petrol and diesel. It'll be ~2030 by that stage.


----------



## Humid (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Elighten is then, how much revenue do you then the average family generate in excise from fuel.




Been on the sauce mate?


----------



## Humid (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Elighten is then, how much revenue do you then the average family generate in excise from fuel.




https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-insurance/research/car-owner-cost-statistics.html


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## Humid (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> My figures we per car, but the figures go buy liters of fuel burnt, so if you are splitting the driving between two cars it might end up being roughly the same.




So the dad only goes to work sometimes


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

Humid said:


> Been on the sauce mate?



Do you mean have I been consuming alcohol? No, I don’t drink Alcohol anymore.


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## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

Humid said:


> So the dad only goes to work sometimes




One might go to work and one might drive to the supermarket down the road, do you know how averages work?

but if they are a family that polluted more than average, I see no problem with them taking a bit more of a tax hit.


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## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> It sounds awfully like a tax on the lower half economically.
> 
> Labor was accused of that over another issue and won't want it to happen again anytime soon. Last thing the ALP wants is to be seen as a party for the rich, that just cost them an election.
> 
> ...




It already happens, poor people driving around 1997 VT commodores already pay more excise than a 2019 hydrid, Ev’s are just a continuation of the trend.

Whether you are rich or poor, we breathe the same air.

And if getting people to spend a bit more upfront on their vehicle so we can have cleaner air, it makes complete sense to me that allowing The people that buy The polluting car at the expense of societies lungs should take a bit of a tax hit.


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## Humid (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Do you mean have I been consuming alcohol? No, I don’t drink Alcohol anymore.



There lies the problem lol


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## Humid (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> One might go to work and one might drive to the supermarket down the road, do you know how averages work?
> 
> but if they are a family that polluted more than average, I see no problem with them taking a bit more of a tax hit.




Obviously you don't
Or you can't read


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## Humid (16 February 2020)

Fuel costs are the biggest ongoing expense for Australians who own their cars outright, with an average spend of $71.50 a week

You should go out more
Reproduce
You might get some experience
All the gear no idea is what they say in industry


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## basilio (16 February 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> Not sure if this has been posted before, if not it is worth a watch





As usual an outstanding analysis.
Again,  *as usual, *the arguments propounded to undermine electric cars are cherry picked , deceitful dribble.
This happens each and every time .
Yet each and ever time they get trotted out and repeated by the same die hards who clearly don't care a whit about facts as long as they can trash anything to do with a renewable, sustainable idea. 

Come on folks can you do better than that ?


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## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

Humid said:


> Fuel costs are the biggest ongoing expense for Australians who own their cars outright, with an average spend of $71.50 a week




Whats your point?

Thats an argument in favour of EV's not against them.


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## Humid (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Whats your point?
> 
> Thats an argument in favour of EV's not against them.




The point is you comment about a few hundred dollars is way off the mark
And you are always right according to you lol

The answer is related to their ego, their very sense-of-self. Some people have such a fragile ego, such brittle self-esteem, such a weak "psychological constitution," that admitting they made a mistake or that they were wrong is fundamentally too threatening for their egos to tolerate. Accepting they were wrong, absorbing that reality, would be so psychologically shattering, their defense mechanisms do something remarkable to avoid doing so — they literally distort their perception of reality to make it (reality) less threatening. Their defense mechanisms protect their fragile ego by changing the very facts in their mind, so they are no longer wrong or culpable.

Sound familiar


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## Smurf1976 (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> It already happens, poor people driving around 1997 VT commodores already pay more excise than a 2019 hydrid, Ev’s are just a continuation of the trend.




The difference is that what you're proposing bumps their cost up by a very substantial amount, $ hundreds per year, regardless of usage.

I'm not against EV's, heck I've been advocating an all-electric economy for the past few decades now , but things which tax those toward the bottom are political dynamite and it's very unlikely that any significant party will go near the idea.

Far more likely we instead see the lost revenue replaced with income tax, an increase in the GST or some other tax. Charging someone circa $1500 just to register a car (current costs + lost excise) isn't going to fly politically, it's just too big an upfront cost indeed for many it would become their single largest lump sum payment and that sure isn't going to get anyone planning such a thing elected.

There's no fundamental reason why road transport needs to be cost neutral to government. We don't put a tax on shoes to cover the cost of footpaths, we don't have TV and radio licensing or a tax on equipment to fund the ABC and we don't send other countries a bill for the cost of the military. For that matter we don't even recover the cost of policing from criminals and even the concept of paying to use a public toilet is very uncommon in Australia. And of course the most relevant one - in most cities public transport runs at a huge financial loss (though autonomous vehicles will, if they become a big thing, largely change that through reduction of lesser used services).

Lots of things are cross subsidised so there's no inherent reason why reduced revenue from excise charged on vehicle fuels needs to be recovered from another tax on vehicles. It could just as easily be a tax on data or a tax on stone benchtops (the latter might actually be a decent idea given how many people their production seems to be killing with silicosis but that's another story). Given that everyone benefits in some way from the existence of roads including those who don't own a car, and that light vehicles cause relatively little wear to those roads, there's no major necessity for them to be a cost neutral thing on a standalone basis. 

EV's = yes certainly. There are lots of problems with oil - CO2's just one on a long list really.

Huge tax on simply having a car and being able to use it on a street without having actually gone anywhere = definitely no that's too harsh.


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## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The difference is that what you're proposing bumps their cost up by a very substantial amount, $ hundreds per year, regardless of usage.
> 
> I'm not against EV's, heck I've been advocating an all-electric economy for the past few decades now , but things which tax those toward the bottom are political dynamite and it's very unlikely that any significant party will go near the idea.
> 
> ...




until the uptake of EVs gets into much higher percentages, the cost wil not rise into the hundreds.

By that time even the average petrol car will be burning less petrol, think hybrids/plug in hybrids etc, So the petrol tax will be bringing in less anyway.


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## SirRumpole (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Check out the stats and see how many people die each year from air pollution, of which vehicle related smog is a major contributor.




So how do they calculate this ?

It's like deaths caused by smoking, no doubt there are a lot , but some people smoke all their lives and don't get lung cancer.

I've always wondered how they attribute deaths due to pollution that lot's of people experience, but not all die from.


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## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

Humid said:


> The point is you comment about a few hundred dollars is way off the mark
> And you are always right according to you lol




Mate, it’s not that far off the mark even if we accept your figures.

you said the average family spends $71.50 / week on fuel and that they probably have two cars.

That means they are generating about $500 a year in fuel excise per car.

But either way, my point was simply that a move to transition some of the revenue lost by a decline in fuel excise into the cost of registration would only result in mild rego increases over time.

I think I said $7 per 1% of the fleet that transitions to EV, even using your figures it would only be $5.

even if your figures were $71.50 fuel per car, that would only be about $10 increase in rego per 1% of the fleet that transitions.


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## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So how do they calculate this ?
> 
> It's like deaths caused by smoking, no doubt there are a lot , but some people smoke all their lives and don't get lung cancer.
> 
> I've always wondered how they attribute deaths due to pollution that lot's of people experience, but not all die from.




Just like smoking doesn’t guarantee that you get lung cancer, but smoking does increase your chances, so does living in areas of higher air pollution.

Not to mention that non cancer deaths and hospital admissions for things like asthma and other things spike higher on days of high pollution.


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## sptrawler (16 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> until the uptake of EVs gets into much higher percentages, the cost wil not rise into the hundreds.
> 
> By that time even the average petrol car will be burning less petrol, think hybrids/plug in hybrids etc, So the petrol tax will be bringing in less anyway.



Any loss in revenue, will be picked up somewhere else, it isn't as though the Government is a business and you can take your custom elsewhere, taxes are a guaranteed income.


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## Value Collector (16 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Any loss in revenue, will be picked up somewhere else, it isn't as though the Government is a business and you can take your custom elsewhere, taxes are a guaranteed income.




yeah, of course.

that’s kinda my point, they will just make the revenue else where, increasing rego will be an easy option if they want to keep the tax’s transport related.

but as you are eluding, additional taxes could land anywhere in the economy.


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## Humid (17 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Mate, it’s not that far off the mark even if we accept your figures.
> 
> you said the average family spends $71.50 / week on fuel and that they probably have two cars.
> 
> ...




Here you go again where does it mention families


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## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> additional taxes could land anywhere in the economy.




Extra taxes will probably land on consumers as usual.

How about putting company tax up 1 percent ?


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## Value Collector (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Extra taxes will probably land on consumers as usual.




Every tax flows through to consumers in some way eventually.

I wouldn’t be against raising company tax 1%, except for the fact that I prefer round numbers haha.


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## Value Collector (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Extra taxes will probably land on consumers as usual.
> 
> How about putting company tax up 1 percent ?




I was talking about the average family car, so I assumed that’s what you were talking about.

but as I said either way it would only raise rego by like $10, which was what my original point was, all I was trying to say was that a gradual decrease in fuel excise revenue could be offset with incremental increases to rego.

If you want to fixate on part of my argument while ignoring my actual point go ahead.


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## Humid (17 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Every tax flows through to consumers in some way eventually.
> 
> I wouldn’t be against raising company tax 1%, except for the fact that I prefer round numbers haha.




Seeing your math I can understand why


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## Humid (17 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I was talking about the average family car, so I assumed that’s what you were talking about.
> 
> but as I said either way it would only raise rego by like $10, which was what my original point was, all I was trying to say was that a gradual decrease in fuel excise revenue could be offset with incremental increases to rego.
> 
> If you want to fixate on part of my argument while ignoring my actual point go ahead.



Just fixated on your bs


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## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Every tax flows through to consumers in some way eventually.
> 
> I wouldn’t be against raising company tax 1%, except for the fact that I prefer round numbers haha.




OK, make it 30% that's fairly round.


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## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I was talking about the average family car, so I assumed that’s what you were talking about.
> 
> but as I said either way it would only raise rego by like $10, which was what my original point was, all I was trying to say was that a gradual decrease in fuel excise revenue could be offset with incremental increases to rego.
> 
> If you want to fixate on part of my argument while ignoring my actual point go ahead.




I don't think an increase in rego of $10 would in any way balance the decrease in excise revenue. There would more likely have to be some sort of distance tax levied on EV's which would mean monitoring of your movements and the government would know everywhere you went.

Are you happy with that ?


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## sptrawler (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think an increase in rego of $10 would in any way balance the decrease in excise revenue. There would more likely have to be some sort of distance tax levied on EV's which would mean monitoring of your movements and the government would know everywhere you went.
> 
> Are you happy with that ?



I think they already do, most people carry a mobile phone.
But as you say a GPS will be embedded in the ECU and probably monitor distance travelled, will be the only fair way of doing it.
But as people have mentioned, there will probably be exemptions, to stop a skewed outcome where people are required to use their car for work.


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## Value Collector (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't think an increase in rego of $10 would in any way balance the decrease in excise revenue. There would more likely have to be some sort of distance tax levied on EV's which would mean monitoring of your movements and the government would know everywhere you went.
> 
> Are you happy with that ?




I said a $10 increase in rego for every 1% of the vehicle fleet that transitions.

I would be happy with any mileage type tax system that got applied to vehicles to compensate reductions in fuel excise.

but not until a large amount of the cars are electric, until then I think it’s better to not tax Ev’s to try and encourage faster adoption.

Also as I said keeping the burden a bit higher on the pollution generating cars is probably a good idea.


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## Value Collector (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, make it 30% that's fairly round.




It is 30%, except for small business.


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## Value Collector (17 February 2020)

Humid said:


> Just fixated on your bs




I think you need a Xanax and relax but.


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## SirRumpole (17 February 2020)

Well anyway the EV is a great introduction to the market and I'd like to see some industry here that takes advantage of that market, whether it be producing whole vehicles, batteries or spare parts.

There could be a battle between battery EV's and hydrogen fuel cells, but the capacity to charge EV's from personal solar panels gives them the advantage at the moment and may be a disincentive to developing a hydrogen network.

Do you have  a gas guzzler as well VC ? I think this is the way a lot of households will go. I doubt if most would rely just on an EV.


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## Humid (17 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I think you need a Xanax and relax but.



I may a few issues but can assure you anxiety isn't one of them


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## Value Collector (17 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Do you have  a gas guzzler as well VC ? I think this is the way a lot of households will go. I doubt if most would rely just on an EV.




Nope, the Model 3 is our only car, we are a single car household, always have been.

I couldn’t imagine ever getting a petrol car again, the Tesla is just so much more convenient, you don’t realize how much of a hassle petrol stations are until you don’t have to go to them anymore, and instead just  top up the car in your garage and start each day with a full “tank” (so to speak).


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## Value Collector (17 February 2020)

Humid said:


> I may a few issues but can assure you anxiety isn't one of them




I didn’t say you had anxiety, I said you need to relax, but anyway good luck with that.


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## sptrawler (18 February 2020)

Time for some to close their eyes and put their hands over their ears.
Running an electric car may end up pretty dear, unless you have the ability to charge at home.

https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/nor...s-make-ev-charging-prices-higher-than-petrol/
From the article:

_A hike in electric car charging rates by European electric car fast charging network Ionity has drawn a backlash from the Norwegian electric car association Norsk Elbilforenig, which says the new rates make powering an electric vehicle more expensive than fuelling a similar petrol or diesel car.

On Friday Ionity, a joint venture between BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Ford and Volkswagen including Audi and Porsche, announced a new pricing structure that will see the previously fixed rate of 8 euros ($A12.90 converted) replaced on January 31, 2020 with a new price-per-kWh rate
Ionity’s new rate of 0.79 euros/kWh will see Norwegians pay around NOK7.80 (gross price in country-specific currency), which becomes NOK 8.40/kWh (*$A1.37/kWh converted*) after Ionity has added an additional fee_.
_This fixed rate meant that owners of electric vehicles (EVs) with larger, long range batteries gained a pricing advantage over those owning EVs with smaller batteries, who paid more per kilowatt hour_.

_The announcement was met with numerous negative reactions that caused one follower of the network on Facebook to comment: “This is messed up, daylight robbery!!! The price is absurd. My BMW i3 winter consumption is 20 kwh per 100km , so 16€ per 100km. I think that a BMW X5 is cheaper to drive than that.”
By comparison, electric vehicle fast chargers in Australia cost between $A0.35-0.40/kWh, although a recent add-on $A0.25/minute rate by Evie Networks was also met in early January with concerns about fairness for owners of electric vehicles that charge at slower rates_.

Last time I looked at the RAC charger in Mandurah, it was 45c/kwh


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## Value Collector (18 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Last time I looked at the RAC charger in Mandurah, it was 45c/kwh




I think thats got to be a weird local situation there.

The Tesla chargers are 42c/kwh. 
Charging at home is about 25c/kwh (depending on plan cheaper for off peak)
Charging using your solar is free (or what ever your buyback rate is if you want to think of it like that)

Going by my real world comparisons between my old car and my Tesla, 1 litre of petrol is equal to about 1.2 KWH of electricity, So even using the grossly overpriced charging prices in the article charging your EV would only be slightly higher price than Petrol.

Not to mention most people rarely use public chargers, so most of your driving would be based on the cheap home charging rates, and it would just be the odd road trip where you have to fork up the expensive rates.

------------

All in all though, I think that company in the article, (which is owned by ICE car makers) will price them selves out of the market.


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## sptrawler (20 February 2020)

If anyone thinks China isn't going to be a big player in the electric car space, have a read of this, pretty impressive stuff.
Also the new rules introduced in January, that requires all taxi's to be able to run for 30 miles, without producing any pollution.
Interesting read.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/levc-geely-london-electric-black-taxis-cabs


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## Dona Ferentes (21 February 2020)

And this has relevance, for battery configurations.
https://www.mining.com/teslas-china-surprise-big-blow-for-cobalt-nickel-price-bulls/
"The world’s largest electric carmaker is shifting some production of its most popular model away from batteries that contain nickel and cobalt."



> In a surprise move, China’s top battery manufacturer CATL will supply Tesla with  lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries for its Model 3 production at its newly built $2 billion factory outside Shanghai. The Model 3 is Tesla’s most popular, and the US-made version uses the company’s nickel-cobalt-aluminum (NCA) cathode chemistry. Most other automakers favour nickel-cobalt-manganese (NCM) cathode chemistries.





> LFP batteries are cheaper than batteries using NCA and NCM chemistries but lack the energy density, reducing driving range. LFP batteries power almost the entire electric bus fleet in China and are popular for smaller city runabout vehicles where range is not an issue.


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## sptrawler (21 February 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> And this has relevance, for battery configurations.
> https://www.mining.com/teslas-china-surprise-big-blow-for-cobalt-nickel-price-bulls/
> "The world’s largest electric carmaker is shifting some production of its most popular model away from batteries that contain nickel and cobalt."



Except for the fact they have less energy density, which means less distance, which means range anxiety.
Which is the biggest problem, with the uptake of BE vehicles.
Could be down ramping to collapse nickel, cobalt prices and pick up cheap miners?
Wow no one would do that.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (21 February 2020)

The second quote did point that out. It's about range, and suitable for certain situations.

Also, more at (haven't drilled to the Reuters link yet)
https://electrek-co.cdn.ampproject....nese-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-report/


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## sptrawler (21 February 2020)

Dona Ferentes said:


> The second quote did point that out. It's about range, and suitable for certain situations.
> 
> Also, more at (haven't drilled to the Reuters link yet)
> https://electrek-co.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/electrek.co/2020/02/18/tesla-cheaper-chinese-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-report/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE=#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://electrek.co/2020/02/18/tesla-cheaper-chinese-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-report/



The biggest threat to nickel, cobalt IMO is Lithium/air, the problem with lithium ion/nickel/cobalt whatever is the charge rate.

What is required is a battery/capacitor hybrid, that is fast charge slow discharge, that is the future of electric cars IMO

Lithium/air is heading in that direction, also solid state batteries, so at the moment nickel/cobalt is giving the best energy density in relation to charge rate.

China wants to keep ramping up manufacturing, while keeping the USA on side, so electric cars is the next frontier.

Will China go for cheap and cheerfull? against the USA going more expensive, but practical? who will sell more? GM has abandoned RHD so it looks like a LHD head to head. LOL
Time will tell.
In reality no one bought a second nickel metal hydride battery operated drill, because the batteries were useless, and that will be the same with electric cars, if your car can do 1,000klm on a charge, it will be the car to have no one will care about its 0-100klm time.
Distance will be the performance measure of BEV cars IMO.
As I said, it is only what I think and some will take exception to it.


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## Value Collector (21 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> if your car can do 1,000klm on a charge, it will be the car to have .....
> Distance will be the performance measure of BEV cars IMO.




I actually don’t think higher range than what is already available is necessary at all, sure a 1000km range would make headlines but almost no one would gain any practical benefit from it.

I mean almost no petrol car gets sold with a 1000km range fuel tank.

As cars got more efficient they didn’t advertise higher range, they reduced the size of the fuel tanks.

Sure 1000km range would allow you to get from Sydney-Brisbane non stop, but you are going to need to stop and pee anyway, so having a car With 500km range at costs $10k less, and charges in 15mins while you stop and pee is going to be more practical.

especially if your daily commute is 400km or less, and you are charging at home, the 1000km battery pack would just be extra baggage and useless bragging rights.

My car only has a stated range of 386km, but it will push out to 450km highway driving, and I haven’t come close to running out of charge even on interstate trips.


----------



## sptrawler (21 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I actually don’t think higher range than what is already available is necessary at all, sure a 1000km range would make headlines but almost no one would gain any practical benefit from it.
> 
> I mean almost no petrol car gets sold with a 1000km range fuel tank.
> 
> ...



We know your car is wonderful, a mate has one, he is happy also.
All I was saying is the Chinese putting in lower capacity batteries, may not actually work in their favour.
Sorry if I upset you.
You have bought the best car in the World, you are a legend, are we good.


----------



## sptrawler (21 February 2020)

The vision impaired want electric vehicles to have a siren or some noise generator installed, so they can hear them coming.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/renew...-and-electric-cars-123295.html?trackLink=SMH1


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## sptrawler (21 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well anyway the EV is a great introduction to the market and I'd like to see some industry here that takes advantage of that market, whether it be producing whole vehicles, batteries or spare parts.
> .



Hey Rumpy, here is something custom built, for you guys out in the sticks, with range anxiety.

https://electrek.co/2020/02/19/fren...attery-trailers-as-ad-hoc-ev-range-extenders/


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## Value Collector (21 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> We know your car is wonderful, a mate has one, he is happy also.
> All I was saying is the Chinese putting in lower capacity batteries, may not actually work in their favour.
> Sorry if I upset you.
> You have bought the best car in the World, you are a legend, are we good.




Just pointing out that extreme range batteries aren’t necessary or even practical.


----------



## sptrawler (21 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Just pointing out that extreme range batteries aren’t necessary or even practical.



I just hope the Chinese don't do to the car industry, what they have done to every other industry, decimated it with cheap product untill quality product goes out of business.


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## macca (21 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I just hope the Chinese don't do to the car industry, what they have done to every other industry, decimated it with cheap product untill quality product goes out of business.




Cars are a man thing, money no object for enough blokes to keep the good stuff coming.

Just look at 4x4, working class blokes driving cars worth $80-90k, I bought a basic model only $60k but I am a frugal, less gadgets to go wrong when touring.

I see lots of $80k plus being driven on the beach to go fishing and when outback they are out there with stone chips and pindan all through them.


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## Value Collector (22 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I just hope the Chinese don't do to the car industry, what they have done to every other industry, decimated it with cheap product untill quality product goes out of business.




At the end of the day that’s a consumer driven outcome.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 February 2020)

How electric vehicles could lower energy costs.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...t-lower-energy-costs-aemc-paper-says/11990024


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## sptrawler (22 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> How electric vehicles could lower energy costs.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...t-lower-energy-costs-aemc-paper-says/11990024



Storage, storage, storage, is what is needed.
But I'm sure the consumer will be paying for the storage they are giving, one way or another, you will supply the storage for the large generators.


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## Smurf1976 (23 February 2020)

Solar Sponge.

If you're in SA then get used to hearing this term. 

The basic structure for Residential Time Of Use pricing will be:

25% of normal flat rate network price 10am - 3pm aka "Solar Sponge"
50% of normal flat rate network price 1am - 6am
125% of normal flat rate network price at other times

The intent is to push consumers to shift loads using price as the mechanism.

If you have Off Peak Controlled Load installed (eg for water heating, swimming pool heating, EV charging etc) the historic default time has been 23:00 - 07:00 but if you want the 10:00 - 15:00 period added then this is available now for those with any digital meter either manually read or remote read. Just need to ask your retailer (or pester them until they give in more commonly, some aren't being particularly helpful with this). Generally can't be easily done with the old electro-mechanical timers however since they lack the additional set of pins required (could be easily added if someone had kept some spares 50 years ago.....).


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## Humid (23 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Solar Sponge.
> 
> If you're in SA then get used to hearing this term.
> 
> ...




They might still be stuck to the magnets somewhere...


----------



## orr (25 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Storage, storage, storage, is what is needed.
> But I'm sure the consumer will be paying for the storage they are giving, one way or another, *you will supply* the *storage* for the *large generators*.




Why would it have to be that you would supply to a large generator?
I could imagine a situation where competitive pressure would apply from any entity capable of guaranteeing peaking supply and more.
If you as an electric vehicle owner as a member of a large pool of EV owners, could through an organising peaking supply co-ordinator offer a percentage of battery capacity from your vehicle  to be available to feed back into the grid when demand required the dormant *capital value of your storage would be unlocked*.
The percentage of an indviduals capacity to be available could be varied depending on your need at any time. The size of the overall pool giving a base level for the operator to offer the market. Plus price incentives to members could easily be factored in for periods of high demand.

The SA big battery is rumoured to be returning %30+ return on investment.
So Enel-x, from the ABC link above, is offering off the shelf hardware and software to unlock the capital value of your battery to eliminate the battery aspect of the SA project. What's the ROI then?
I can see a bidding war coming for my latent capacity.

Just another unimagined benefit to the economy invisible to Schmo and the plonkers running joint.
How many Holden's are out there capable of pouring money into your bank account just sitting in the garage? Love'm all you want ... But EV's are the future, near future. The Money dictates.
And some think that Carbon Neutral by 2050 is going to be hard. It will be if you're trying to get there in a Kingswood. And this government looks like a clapped out Belmont.


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2020)

orr said:


> Why would it have to be that you would supply to a large generator?
> .



The Large generators, could be anything from a wind farm, to a solar farm or even maybe a wave generator.
The reasons why they will need storage has been covered endlessly, the reason they would rather install generation rather than storage has also been covered endlessly.


----------



## orr (25 February 2020)

Trawler; You haven't comprehended what I've posted and it relation to the ABC link From Rumpole and your reply to it. Not that really matters, more a lesson to me. Are you in the back seat of the Belmont?


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## sptrawler (25 February 2020)

orr said:


> Trawler; You haven't comprehended what I've posted and it relation to the ABC link From Rumpole and your reply to it. Not that really matters, more a lesson to me. Are you in the back seat of the Belmont?



My appologies, I will re read what you wrote, I have never owned a Belmont owned a HJ Kingswood stn wgn, but the back seat was full of kids.
I see what you are getting at, the people who own electric cars may be able to sell the storage into the grid, that is already there with the import export facility in smart meters.
The only car that has that facility ATM is the Nissan Leaf, but it hasn't been cleared by the electrical standards as compliant with our system as yet, from memory.
I don't know that a pool of cars would be feasable, unless they were in one area, as in say a retirement village, but a very interesting thought.
The problem with pooling cars, remote from each other would be metering and ensuring all are available when required or contracted to be available.
The retirement village would work well with a large communal  battery and supplemented by everyone's car when at home, and all units and communal buildings having solar.
With regard batteries in general, they are still expensive and the payback wont stack up for a long time, that is why there are a lot more wind/solar farms than batteries in the system, if they were viable the owners of the farms would be throwing them in.
Instead they are screaming for a Gov plan, so the taxpayer can buy them.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## moXJO (25 February 2020)

Interesting breakdown of costs of repairs on a tesla with 640000 km on the clock.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/02/...re-are-all-the-parts-that-had-to-be-replaced/


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## moXJO (25 February 2020)

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/02/tesla-charger-australia-supercharger/

Every tesla charger in Australia


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## sptrawler (25 February 2020)

moXJO said:


> https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/02/tesla-charger-australia-supercharger/
> 
> Every tesla charger in Australia



O.K if you live in NSW, not so good in W.A.


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## sptrawler (26 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> How electric vehicles could lower energy costs.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...t-lower-energy-costs-aemc-paper-says/11990024



On the flip side is this article, very interesting times ahead.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/elect...ia-s-energy-supply-123309.html?trackLink=SMH1
From the article:
“_Electric vehicles will boost demand for electricity and could have a big impact on the energy market," AEMC Commission Acting Chief Executive Suzanne Falvi said.
“Sales of electric vehicles increased by more than 200 per cent between 2018 and 2019 and we need to lock in lower cost ways to support consumers who want them."

The report cited one charging station with eight chargers built in Adelaide in 2017, which was "equivalent to the connection of 100 new homes".

"If a vehicle is being charged at a more rapid rate, it requires a similar amount of electricity to a house and if you consider that there will 12 million electric vehicles by 2040, that’s like 12 million houses," said Peter Colacino, chief of policy and research at Infrastructure Australia.

Harry Hamann, CEO of charging installation company GET Electric, said his business regularly encountered developers who were unaware of the demands electric car charging could place on energy supply.

"One of the issues in this building we’re working on at the moment is the amount of power they have available – it sounds like a lot, but it's running lifts, lighting, air con etc. So the building doesn’t have capacity to provide any more energy and we could burn the substation down," Mr Hamann said.

He claimed the risks are high: "The developers and body corps we’re dealing with don’t really realise it’s an issue until we tell them. It will be like the Pink Batts cladding issue, once a couple of buildings go up in flames they’ll do something.

"As a result, our chargers have automatic load management, so if demand gets too high, like when all the air con is on, the chargers will throttle back – how we notify owners we’re still not entirely sure about."

Mr Colacino said while he's not sure buildings will go up in flames, we're likely to see the kind of complications Broadband users see when everyone starts streaming Netflix shows at the same time.

"It’s the distribution part of the network - the substations that will come under pressure because there will be this extra demand on top of the established grid," Mr Colacino said_.

Which kind of goes back to what we have been talking about, that it will be easy to get the cart before the horse.
Anyone can have a plan, untill they get hit in the face, going off half cocked is worse than doing nothing. IMO
If you are going to do this, do it once and do it right, lives will depend on it.
From the article it sounds as though standard charging protocols are on the agenda hooray.
When was Labor saying, that half the cars in Australia would be electric, sounds familiar doesn't it. Nothing wrong with the policy, it is the detail that is lacking.
Just my opinion. But a great well written article, worth reading in full.


----------



## sptrawler (26 February 2020)

From the article in the last post, this is great news also, which we have been discussing for some time:
_Mr Washington said the next wave will have vehicle-to-grid charging technology, which his company will introduce this year.

"Vehicle-to-grid charging stations will be available this year from us, so people can theoretically charge at their office then go home and power their house," he said_.
 As I've said before, I think the transition to an electric economy from a fossil fuel economy, is moving amazingly fast here.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 February 2020)

Tesla autopilot kills Apple engineer.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...-safeguards-in-fatal-autopilot-crash/12002640


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## Smurf1976 (26 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> _"Vehicle-to-grid charging stations will be available this year from us, so people can theoretically charge at their office then go home and power their house," he said_.




What this opens up is the administrative can of worms.

I can foresee employers being less than enthusiastic about this idea and not unreasonably so. Many businesses already restrict private use of company vehicles and monitor fuel purchases in case of theft. The idea of taking enough additional "fuel" to literally run the employee's entire house adds an entirely new dimension to that.

There's a lot of things like that of a non-technical nature which will need to be worked out regarding all this. Vehicles and employees can cause a fair bit of grief as it is.


----------



## sptrawler (26 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> What this opens up is the administrative can of worms.
> 
> I can foresee employers being less than enthusiastic about this idea and not unreasonably so. Many businesses already restrict private use of company vehicles and monitor fuel purchases in case of theft. The idea of taking enough additional "fuel" to literally run the employee's entire house adds an entirely new dimension to that.
> 
> There's a lot of things like that of a non-technical nature which will need to be worked out regarding all this. Vehicles and employees can cause a fair bit of grief as it is.



These and the other issues like those mentioned, like upgrading the infrastructure on shared accommodation, industrial and commercial buildings, street distribution, substations etc.
It isn't just a matter of waving the magic wand and saying abra cadabra, some people have no idea. 
They think if a politician ordains it, it will happen and all will be good in love island Australia. 
Absolutely gormless is my opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2020)

Ford starting to get into the hybrid EV market, with the Escape.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/motori...l/news-story/af47271e7eba8032b7073f92b68f50ac


----------



## basilio (27 February 2020)

Here is one current solution to fast charging of electric vehicles without  straining the grid. Worth reading in full. 

* AFC Energy launches alkaline fuel cell H-Power EV charger system  *
* 31 December 2019 *
UK-based AFC Energy launched its H-Power electric vehicle (EV) charger based on alkaline hydrogen fuel cell technology. The self-contained charging system overcomes issues associated with poor grid coverage to provide rapid electric vehicle (EV) charging anywhere it is needed.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/12/20191231-afc.html


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2020)

basilio said:


> Here is one current solution to fast charging of electric vehicles without  straining the grid. Worth reading in full.
> 
> * AFC Energy launches alkaline fuel cell H-Power EV charger system  *
> * 31 December 2019 *
> ...



Good article Bas, that sort of idea will work well in remote areas as backup for installed solar?wind fed chargers.
Another interesting part was the amount of money required to spent on the grid infrastructure, to meet the E.V demand, the study was commissioned by Scottish power so is probably a fair assessment.
From the article:
_In the UK, a recent study commissioned by Scottish Power found that to meet EV deployment targets, almost £100 billion (US$131 billion) of new investment is required to upgrade the network and deploy dedicated EV charging stations throughout the country.

For fleet operators, commercial vehicles and even private and public car park operators, large scale rapid charging is a corporate necessity, which in instances cannot be met without localized grid upgrades. AFC Energy’s system is designed to meet these needs by delivering an EV charger that can be safely fueled using a variety of hydrogen sources while operating at optimum efficiency to enable rapid charging rates when and where it is required_.

It confirms what I have been saying in the Power Generation thread, that the amount of money required will be amazing, and a glib one liner by a politician isn't going to do anything, other than give people false hope this can be achieved overnight.
$200billion Australian, that is for the U.K. 
I will post it in the Power Generation thread, it is worth a read IMO.


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## basilio (27 February 2020)

I believe the AFC unit is intended for everywhere. Essentially it transforms relatively low quality hydrogen into electricity. In theory one could have an ammonia tank with a cracker behind the unit supplying the fuel.


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Tesla autopilot kills Apple engineer.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...-safeguards-in-fatal-autopilot-crash/12002640




the headline should read, 

“Man playing game on phone dies in car crash”


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> the headline should read,
> 
> “Man playing game on phone dies in car crash”




EV's are going to happen definitely but I'm far less convinced that we'll see autonomous vehicles replace human drivers completely.

In some applications yes, AV's will likely replace low patronage public transport for example, but I'm not convinced when it comes to privately owned vehicles. I suspect it may end up like wood fires and clotheslines - a throwback to the past which rationally seems out of place and has done for years but still common in practice. 

I won't be at all surprised if in 2050 the concept of a human driving a car is still considered normal.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> the headline should read,
> 
> “Man playing game on phone dies in car crash”




People will become more reliant on technology, believing it to be faultless. People are naturally lazy, I think this sort of thing will happen a lot more in future.


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> People will become more reliant on technology, believing it to be faultless. People are naturally lazy, I think this sort of thing will happen a lot more in future.




I have no doubt people will die while cars are on autopilot.

The important thing though is whether the death rate is higher or lower than vehicles without that function enabled.

So far the crash rate with autopilot enabled is lower than without, two heads are better than one so to speak, but the tech is not ready for you to switch off completely.


----------



## Value Collector (27 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> EV's are going to happen definitely but I'm far less convinced that we'll see autonomous vehicles replace human drivers completely.
> 
> In some applications yes, AV's will likely replace low patronage public transport for example, but I'm not convinced when it comes to privately owned vehicles. I suspect it may end up like wood fires and clotheslines - a throwback to the past which rationally seems out of place and has done for years but still common in practice.
> 
> I won't be at all surprised if in 2050 the concept of a human driving a car is still considered normal.




I agree if we are talking about cars with no steering wheels, that don’t require any driving assistance.

but cars with self driving functions that can do most of the routine stuff for you are not that far away.

I see no reason why a human should be needed for long haul freeway driving for example, I think by 2050 The cars being sold will doing that themselves as a minimum.


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## Smurf1976 (28 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I see no reason why a human should be needed for long haul freeway driving for example, I think by 2050 The cars being sold will doing that themselves as a minimum.



I expect that we'll have cars that are _capable _of being fully autonomous in the not too distant future.

What I'm thinking though is that it'll be one of those things where the feature's there but many choose to drive manually because that's their preference.

There's a lot of examples where an automatic technology exists but consumers prefer to not use it or at least to not use it under some circumstances. Lots of things like that - there's still plenty of people using manual toothbrushes, washing dishes by hand and hanging washing out to dry for example.  

People who can't drive, for either physical or legal reasons, will use AV's sure and I do think we'll see some big changes there. AV's will compete head on with traditional forms of public transport for lower volume services for example and they enable people who can't drive to become sole occupant vehicle users.

For the rest though, I'm not convinced that we're going to see the average person cease driving (as in actually driving the car) altogether at least not for most who were born early enough such that they've already got a driver's license by the time AV's become common and legal for unlicensed drivers to use.


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## sptrawler (28 February 2020)

Further to your post smurf, there is already a strong push to go autonomous, with trains and planes, however there is a lot of public resistance.
How long that resistance will last for who knows? I do know that in my previous employment, they tried to retrofit auto controls on old plant, to remove the human factor.
In the end they ran out of money to throw at it, having said that the new machinery that was installed when the old was shutdown, runs well without human intervention. The only reason humans are present, is statutory requirements.
IMO having operated fairly technical equipment and also repaired same, I think there are times where a human is required to intervene, but the outcome is extremely variable and closely related to the ability of the person who intervenes.

So IMO we are quite a way from fully autonomous vehicles running interstate, but we probably aren't far away from autonomous vehicles operating in dedicated operating areas i.e dockyards, car free inner city areas, specially designed retirement villages etc.
Just my thoughts.


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## Value Collector (28 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I expect that we'll have cars that are _capable _of being fully autonomous in the not too distant future.
> 
> What I'm thinking though is that it'll be one of those things where the feature's there but many choose to drive manually because that's their preference.
> 
> ...




I don’t know, I use the “navigate on autopilot” feature on pretty much every route it’s available on.

I can’t see many people choosing to drive their daily commute (especially in traffic jams) manually once cars get to the point where they don’t really require your attention.

but then again I use both a dishwasher and an electric toothbrush hahaha


----------



## Value Collector (28 February 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Further to your post smurf, there is already a strong push to go autonomous, with trains and planes, however there is a lot of public resistance.
> How long that resistance will last for who knows? I do know that in my previous employment, they tried to retrofit auto controls on old plant, to remove the human factor.
> In the end they ran out of money to throw at it, having said that the new machinery that was installed when the old was shutdown, runs well without human intervention. The only reason humans are present, is statutory requirements.
> IMO having operated fairly technical equipment and also repaired same, I think there are times where a human is required to intervene, but the outcome is extremely variable and closely related to the ability of the person who intervenes.
> ...





sptrawler said:


> Further to your post smurf, there is already a strong push to go autonomous, with trains and planes, however there is a lot of public resistance.
> How long that resistance will last for who knows? I do know that in my previous employment, they tried to retrofit auto controls on old plant, to remove the human factor.
> In the end they ran out of money to throw at it, having said that the new machinery that was installed when the old was shutdown, runs well without human intervention. The only reason humans are present, is statutory requirements.
> IMO having operated fairly technical equipment and also repaired same, I think there are times where a human is required to intervene, but the outcome is extremely variable and closely related to the ability of the person who intervenes.
> ...




we already have autonomous vehicles in dedicated areas, Fmg has over 100 driverless dump trucks, that’s old news.


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## sptrawler (28 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> we already have autonomous vehicles in dedicated areas, Fmg has over 100 driverless dump trucks, that’s old news.



That is what I was alluding to, my son is a sparky working on the trucks, in the mines.


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## Smurf1976 (28 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> but then again I use both a dishwasher and an electric toothbrush hahaha




Much the same there. I'd repaired the dishwasher that came with this house and permanently installed the clothes dryer well before unpacking most of the stuff in boxes. 

Reality is though a lot of people prefer to do things manually. Not everyone's like Smurf and gets excited upon seeing anything with a plug attached.... 

One thing about autonomous vehicles though is the regulatory impacts and I'll pose a few questions:

Could someone who is disqualified from driving, eg due to traffic offences, ride unaccompanied in an autonomous vehicle driving itself?

Could a child travel by themselves? Or an adult who's never had a drivers license and has no idea how to actually drive a car?

What about a cat? Is there any particular reason why I couldn't put the cat in the car and send it to its appointment at the vet? Vet goes outside, retrieves cat from car, gives vaccinations, puts cat back in car which brings it back home?

And what about totally empty vehicles going to pick something up? Eg is the future model of take away food one where the business places food items into unoccupied cars which then return to their owner? Eg it's after midnight, I'm hungry so I send the unoccupied car to whatever fast food place to bring me some food back?

Etc. The possibilities are exciting but the legislative process is going to struggle with all this I think.


----------



## qldfrog (28 February 2020)

Value Collector said:


> we already have autonomous vehicles in dedicated areas, Fmg has over 100 driverless dump trucks, that’s old news.



But they follow a very careful insulation policy with no human interaction allowed
So no algo looking at pedestrian, etc...not comparable to releasing AV in the street..which is being done but much more difficult


----------



## SirRumpole (28 February 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's a lot of examples where an automatic technology exists but consumers prefer to not use it or at least to not use it under some circumstances. Lots of things like that - there's still plenty of people using manual toothbrushes, washing dishes by hand and hanging washing out to dry for example.




The problem as I see it is that drivers don't know how the computers are programmed and what it's priorities are in emergencies.

eg is it set up to protect the safety of the occupants of the vehicle as a priority or human life in general ? 

So will it run the vehicle into a tree to avoid hitting pedestrians, killing those in the car to save other lives ?

Those are moral judgements that usually the driver has under their control, not so under autonomous driving.


----------



## qldfrog (28 February 2020)

With the current crisis and aud value, tesla will. soon be very expensive here.the Bentley of the eco warrior


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## Value Collector (28 February 2020)

qldfrog said:


> But they follow a very careful insulation policy with no human interaction allowed
> So no algo looking at pedestrian, etc...not comparable to releasing AV in the street..which is being done but much more difficult



Yeah, Thats what surf was talking about, I was just saying that sort of thing is already here.

I hospital I visited in Sydney also had meal trolleys being pushed around by robots, even talking the lifts themselves.


----------



## fiftyeight (28 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The problem as I see it is that drivers don't know how the computers are programmed and what it's priorities are in emergencies.
> 
> eg is it set up to protect the safety of the occupants of the vehicle as a priority or human life in general ?
> 
> ...




I have always found this a very interesting question, but just that. It has little or should have little value when talking about the introduction of autonomous vehicles to the roads.

The number of crashes where such a moral judgement is required would be tiny, and in the rare moments they are required, I dont think many human drivers are capable of making any moral judgements, they are mostly panicking and freaking out.

Interesting question, but what actually matters is if the total numbers of vehicle related injuries and deaths can be reduced


----------



## SirRumpole (28 February 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> Interesting question, but what actually matters is if the total numbers of vehicle related injuries and deaths can be reduced




Probably too many factors involved to accurately measure how many accidents have been avoided due to autopilots as these are never reported.

The road toll has been steadily reducing over the years due to better roads mainly, but sure I'd rather trust a properly designed autopilot than a drunk driver.

An autopilot didn't help the 737-MAX though.


----------



## sptrawler (28 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Probably too many factors involved to accurately measure how many accidents have been avoided due to autopilots as these are never reported.
> 
> The road toll has been steadily reducing over the years due to better roads mainly, but sure I'd rather trust a properly designed autopilot than a drunk driver.
> 
> An autopilot didn't help the 737-MAX though.



Going on how my car responds with adaptive cruise control, I would say the biggest problem will be cars stopping, you could end up with a traffic jam at an intersection with no car being able to go anywhere.


----------



## J1eyed (28 February 2020)

I was listening to an interesting podcast the other day with an expert in sleep. (The Drive - Matthew Walker #47, #48, #49)

Matthew made the interesting observation; at least with a drunk driver they react, albeit delayed. A micro sleeping driver doesn't react. With a sleeping driver its a 1 tonne missile with no one at the wheel. I know myself there have been times on long drives when I have zoned out. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Autopilot on these long drives will be a godsend.  

1Eyed


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## fiftyeight (29 February 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> *Probably too many factors involved to accurately measure how many accidents have been avoided due to autopilots as these are never reported.*
> 
> The road toll has been steadily reducing over the years due to better roads mainly, but sure I'd rather trust a properly designed autopilot than a drunk driver.
> 
> An autopilot didn't help the 737-MAX though.




That is why you take a very very large sample size???

Autonomous vehicles by their nature will be the most scrutinised drivers on the road. It will be trivial to compare the safety of auto vs human.

I am not saying autonomous is there now, but humans have not set the bar very high.

As you said I'd trust an appropriately regulated autonomous over a drunk driver any day.... and a tired driver, and a distracted driver, and an old driver, and a young driver, and a driver suffering a heart attack.......

The 737-MAX is a great example, no-one is claims autopilot stops all crashes, but it MASSIVELY reduces the total number. There has been no call for a reduction in the use of auto-pilot, simply to fix where it went wrong. This is


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2020)

Nice looking Hyundai electric car concept, looks like a cross between a Tesla model 3 and a Porsche.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/motori...d/news-story/8e389511aa1fa657ceda3af48d9da244


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## sptrawler (4 March 2020)

Interesting article that is probably accurate, there is very little underlying demand for electric vehicles, they will have to make them cheaper or the Government will have to subsidies them.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/m...s/news-story/75b2d1d1fe33a8361fd6e86c81a5710a


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## CBerg (4 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting article that is probably accurate, there is very little underlying demand for electric vehicles, they will have to make them cheaper or the Government will have to subsidies them.
> 
> https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/m...s/news-story/75b2d1d1fe33a8361fd6e86c81a5710a



Myself & my brother(older) are both nearing(still a couple of years away) from needing a new car.
I'll go for a hybrid or full battery if the tech is substantially better in a couple of years, my brother talks about wanting to buy a Ford Ranger/Dodge Ram even though he's only ever driven sedans in his life... 

I think there's probably a lot of folk in our situation. Keep the current run around going as long as possible while it's still relatively cheap. I paid $1k for a service & new tyres last year, only need a service this year. I own the car outright so other than fuel & insurance I don't really want to buy another car just to save $20 a tank on fuel a week. If your car was built in the last decade it's probably still going to do the job in 5 years with good maintenance.

I see lots & lots of young people driving around in brand new shiny utes, can't be cheap to run or buy, $50-$60k+ by the time you add on all the extras necessary for a city lad that never goes near a dirt road


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2020)

CBerg said:


> Myself & my brother(older) are both nearing(still a couple of years away) from needing a new car.
> I'll go for a hybrid or full battery if the tech is substantially better in a couple of years, my brother talks about wanting to buy a Ford Ranger/Dodge Ram even though he's only ever driven sedans in his life...
> 
> I think there's probably a lot of folk in our situation. Keep the current run around going as long as possible while it's still relatively cheap. I paid $1k for a service & new tyres last year, only need a service this year. I own the car outright so other than fuel & insurance I don't really want to buy another car just to save $20 a tank on fuel a week. If your car was built in the last decade it's probably still going to do the job in 5 years with good maintenance.
> ...



Spot on CBerg, that is why the ex head of Peugot was saying the price of E.V's has to drop, peoples love of cars has been in decline for the 10-20years, it will decline faster as ride share companies like Uber take away the need for a car in places like Melbourne and Sydney.
Cars are moving from a status symbol, to a necessary evil and the last thing people want to do spend a lot of money on them.
They would rather have the money for holidays, netflix, 85" T.V's, latest smart watch, a night out etc.
just my opinion.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Probably too many factors involved to accurately measure how many accidents have been avoided due to autopilots as these are never reported.
> .




I personally was on autopilot two days ago and the car avoided a collision, a car attempted to merge into my lane and just after my car had changed into that lane, the other car was in my blind spot but the Tesla saw it as moved to avoid a collision.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I personally was on autopilot two days ago and the car avoided a collision, a car attempted to merge into my lane and just after my car had changed into that lane, the other car was in my blind spot but the Tesla saw it as moved to avoid a collision.




OK, consider that as reported.


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I personally was on autopilot two days ago and the car avoided a collision, a car attempted to merge into my lane and just after my car had changed into that lane, the other car was in my blind spot but the Tesla saw it as moved to avoid a collision.



It would have been interesting to see what the car would do, if there were cars on the opposite side and behind you.


----------



## Userman (4 March 2020)

_Here's one company of many that's capitalizing on the EV Revolution..._

NEWS - Nasdaq- IDEX - Ideanomics' MEG Sales Subsidiary to Open 100,000 square meters EV Facility in the City of Qingdao


https://investors.ideanomics.com/20...00-square-meters-facility-in-the-City-Qingdao


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2020)

sptrawler said:


> It would have been interesting to see what the car would do, if there were cars on the opposite side and behind you.




Because we had just changed lanes, the lane was clear thankfully, so it was able to move back to that clear spot, if it gets to crazy the car alarms and tells you to retake the wheel.

Hopefully in the future and more and more cars are autonomous, they communicate with each other and operate as a swarm/pack as they move down the freeway, and open gaps for each other etc as they need to merge and change lanes.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> OK, consider that as reported.



Here is some more examples.


----------



## Humid (5 March 2020)

Don't underestimate us dumb humans though as a lot of them examples you would see the drivers ahead actions as in checking mirrors and tailgating touch of brakes and alarm bells would start going off in my head that this dudes Gunna do something.
Like you can't have too dark tinting so you can see the drivers head and what their thinking or not thinking

Still amazing technology that will definitely help those $hit drivers you see on a daily basis


----------



## orr (5 March 2020)

GM's Electric commitment of $20billion investment though to the end 2025 is, in my view, best pulled apart by Gali Russel on his Hyperchange youtube...bare in mind he's way long in TSLA.
Good on GM.. But they're fighting the last war... *AND;* Best case(big maybe) they'll be doing 600k units world wide by end 2025(Rob Maurer/TeslaDailyPodcast calcs)...
any criticism welcome.


----------



## J1eyed (6 March 2020)

CBerg said:


> Myself & my brother(older) are both nearing(still a couple of years away) from needing a new car.
> I'll go for a hybrid or full battery if the tech is substantially better in a couple of years,





CBerg, Just out of curiosity what constitutes your base level of "better". Is it the distance before recharging? Is it price?


----------



## CBerg (6 March 2020)

J1eyed said:


> CBerg, Just out of curiosity what constitutes your base level of "better". Is it the distance before recharging? Is it price?



Probably both.

Current range is fine for a run around town kind of car and there’s no argument from me there but I do go for extended trips on the road once or twice a year.
Organising a rental is fine but factoring that in to prices is what makes it a no go at the moment.

I really like the hybrids, the comment about tech improving substantially was more at full electric.


----------



## J1eyed (6 March 2020)

CBerg said:


> Probably both.
> 
> Current range is fine for a run around town kind of car and there’s no argument from me there but I do go for extended trips on the road once or twice a year.
> Organising a rental is fine but factoring that in to prices is what makes it a no go at the moment.
> ...




What changed my mind on electric cars was playing around on a website called A better route planner. We drive up to Canberra or Sydney once or twice a year. When I started looking how far we could get and how long it would take in an electric versus fueling up an ICE car and having food it really changed my view. Admittedly it didn't take much of a push for me to reach that conclusion.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=c5875bba-a54f-49ce-8735-2184d314a52c


----------



## CBerg (6 March 2020)

J1eyed said:


> What changed my mind on electric cars was playing around on a website called A better route planner. We drive up to Canberra or Sydney once or twice a year. When I started looking how far we could get and how long it would take in an electric versus fueling up an ICE car and having food it really changed my view. Admittedly it didn't take much of a push for me to reach that conclusion.
> 
> https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=c5875bba-a54f-49ce-8735-2184d314a52c



Yeah looking at the map south east Australia looks to have pretty good charging access. I used to live in Lismore NSW for a couple of years and was surprised to see the chargers there.

I know in Townsville QLD there must be some chargers somewhere or they charge at home but I have not seen any chargers within a 3 hour drive, north west or south since being back north. Most of my drives typically go inland to avoid the Bruce/A1 traffic.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2020)

Humid said:


> Don't underestimate us dumb humans though as a lot of them examples you would see the drivers ahead actions as in checking mirrors and tailgating touch of brakes and alarm bells would start going off in my head that this dudes Gunna do something.
> Like you can't have too dark tinting so you can see the drivers head and what their thinking or not thinking
> 
> Still amazing technology that will definitely help those $hit drivers you see on a daily basis




The figures show that driving with autopilot engaged has significantly less crashes and fatalities per million miles than when it’s just a humans in charge.

The old saying two heads is better than one is true here, eg. A “good driver” with autopilot engaged will be better than a “good driver” without it.

360’ degree cameras and radar, combined with ever improving and learning software will give even the best drivers an edge, and compensate some of their failing on days where tiredness or distraction mean there are moments when they are at the top of their game.


----------



## sptrawler (12 March 2020)

Interesting plan for a trackless tram in Perth, sounds as though the councils are keen.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/pe...beach-from-glendalough-station-ng-b881487149z


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2020)

Something we have discussed for a while, may soon be answered.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/nsw-looks-at-new-ways-to-tax-electric-cars-20200329-p54exp.html
From the article:

_NSW Treasury secretary Michael Pratt and deputy secretary Joann Wilkie confirmed to a budget estimates hearing earlier this month that tax measures for electric cars were being considered.

Treasury said there were a range of options on the table such as distance charging, extending registration duties or even Commonwealth levies on electric cars.


Ms Wilkie said governments would lose "a key source of revenue" through dwindling fuel excise as more people turned to electric and petrol and diesel vehicles were phased out.

"Electric vehicles at the moment are subject to registration duties, like all cars," Ms Wilkie said.

"But apart from that, they do not contribute to taxation collected that is then used for the upkeep of roads. Governments also need to consider ... what sort of infrastructure model we are looking [at] for charging stations."

Ms Wilkie said Treasury was watching all the "policy experiments" around the world.

Mr Pratt told the hearing that "policy formulation" was still in its early days in NSW.


"But generally today the people who own electric vehicles are the wealthier end of society who are not paying a dollar for road transport," Mr Pratt said_.


----------



## sptrawler (27 April 2020)

An interesting article on electric car battery materials, especially form an investment perspective.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/elect...toxic-waste-report-123555.html?trackLink=SMH3
From the article:
_The new study, conducted by a coalition of Canadian researchers, says the transition away from fossil fuels is increasing demand for base metals, with shortages in nickel, cobalt and copper predicted to emerge as early as 2025.

According to the research, an electric car with a 75KWh battery and NMC 811 (nickel-manganese-cobalt) chemistry needs 56kg of nickel, 7kg of manganese, 7kg of cobalt and 85 kg of copper for electric wiring_.


----------



## fiftyeight (28 April 2020)

sptrawler said:


> An interesting article on electric car battery materials, especially form an investment perspective.
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/elect...toxic-waste-report-123555.html?trackLink=SMH3
> From the article:
> _The new study, conducted by a coalition of Canadian researchers, says the transition away from fossil fuels is increasing demand for base metals, with shortages in nickel, cobalt and copper predicted to emerge as early as 2025.
> ...




I guess that shortage depends on what technology wins

https://www.machinedesign.com/mater...ry-design-eliminates-costly-cobalt-and-nickel


----------



## Humid (1 May 2020)

“
Frankly, I would call it forcibly imprisoning people in their homes against all their constitutional rights… This is fascist. This isn’t democratic. This isn’t freedom. Give people back their goddamn freedom.

— Elon Musk

$ it brings out the best in people


----------



## moXJO (1 May 2020)

Humid said:


> “
> 
> $ it brings out the best in people



Lol
I guess staying at home is bad for car sales. I'm sure Elon was close to getting a performance bonus before the lockdown.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 May 2020)

moXJO said:


> Lol
> I guess staying at home is bad for car sales. I'm sure Elon was close to getting a performance bonus before the lockdown.




His opinion might change if he or a member of his family got the virus.

Probably the infection rate of his employees doesn't matter to him, they are replaceable after all.


----------



## sptrawler (1 May 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> I guess that shortage depends on what technology wins
> 
> https://www.machinedesign.com/mater...ry-design-eliminates-costly-cobalt-and-nickel




Solid state is the way it will go IMO, a battery capacitor hybrid, but at the moment the lithium is the go.
For how long who knows?


----------



## basilio (13 May 2020)

Why Norway leads the world in electric car sales.
* Norway and the A-ha moment that made electric cars the answer *
A country fuelled by hydropower has become the world’s electric vehicle leader

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-ha-moment-that-made-electric-cars-the-answer


----------



## qldfrog (13 May 2020)

world’s electric vehicle leader..in buying e cars..there is no leadership in using products built by others with no ROI
let's rephrase it with highest penetration of ecar or something similar, I would slo see figures vs China here....


basilio said:


> Why Norway leads the world in electric car sales.
> * Norway and the A-ha moment that made electric cars the answer *
> A country fuelled by hydropower has become the world’s electric vehicle leader
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-ha-moment-that-made-electric-cars-the-answer


----------



## sptrawler (13 May 2020)

qldfrog said:


> world’s electric vehicle leader..in buying e cars..there is no leadership in using products built by others with no ROI
> let's rephrase it with highest penetration of ecar or something similar, I would slo see figures vs China here....



The other obvious differences between Australia and Norway, which affects the up take of electric vehicles are:
Norway has an area 4% that of Australia, which also means it has 92,000 klm of roads, where Australia has 810,000 klm of roads. The electric network on the smaller area and road network is much easier to facilitate and also distance anxiety isn't a problem.
It is great to see the rise in electric vehicle sales, but when I was there last year there is still a majority of ICE vehicles on the road there, the sales of new electric vehicles may be climbing but they don't stand out as the main mode of transport there yet.


----------



## qldfrog (13 May 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The other obvious differences between Australia and Norway, which affects the up take of electric vehicles are:
> Norway has an area 4% that of Australia, which also means it has 92,000 klm of roads, where Australia has 810,000 klm of roads. The electric network on the smaller area and road network is much easier to facilitate and also distance anxiety isn't a problem.
> It is great to see the rise in electric vehicle sales, but when I was there last year there is still a majority of ICE vehicles on the road there, the sales of new electric vehicles may be climbing but they don't stand out as the main mode of transport there yet.



Plus ecar there are genuinely running on renewable whereas here, most are burning coal instead of petrol..not exactly clean..but shuush..
,


----------



## sptrawler (21 May 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> We had 3 car manufacturers here for our population for a long time, surely our market could support one ?
> 
> The yanks and Japs were crazy to all bail out at once. If I was head of say Ford Australia and two of my competitors bailed out, I'd be licking my lips in delight having the market to myself, almost. What a defeatist attitude they had and good riddance.
> 
> ...



There may very well be room for an Australian car manufacturer, hopefully one of the rich mining company billionaires, decides to back someone like the Bolwell brothers.
At least with all the overseas manufacturers leaving, it leaves a vacuum that a wholly owned Australian company can fill, there is no point in having a car industry that the taxpayer sends the money to Japan or the U.S.
If you are going to subsidies it, at least have it Australian owned.
There is a truck company looking to kick off h2 truck building in Australia.
https://www.h2-view.com/story/hyzon-motors-australia-launched/


----------



## qldfrog (4 June 2020)

https://theconversation.com/amp/hyd...theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899
You all know by now my scepticism about H2, i believe the above article should settle this once for all.no investment or new technology can change basic physic.
So where to for H2?
Well i see a still undeveloped promising field on solar wind farms energy storage with h2 fuel cells acting as batteries and allowing base load from cheap green power, and h2 replacing our lpg train for exports to Asia.
Comments welcome but please read the article from the link


----------



## basilio (7 June 2020)

Tesla will be holding a Battery Day sometime in June to announce the commercialization of a improvement in battery design and costs that will make electric cars cost competitive with IC vehicles AND give a1 Million mile range for the cars. 

Worth checking out the background to the upcoming announcement.  Also could partially explain recent sharp increases in TESLA  SP.
1 Comment
*Battery Day: Why Tesla’s single crystal cathode is important*
https://thedriven.io/2020/06/05/battery-day-why-teslas-single-crystal-cathode-is-important/


----------



## qldfrog (7 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Tesla will be holding a Battery Day sometime in June to announce the commercialization of a improvement in battery design and costs that will make electric cars cost competitive with IC vehicles AND give a1 Million mile range for the cars.
> 
> Worth checking out the background to the upcoming announcement.  Also could partially explain recent sharp increases in TESLA  SP.
> 1 Comment
> ...



If good for car, good for home system too


----------



## basilio (7 June 2020)

Further details on new cheaper batteries.  In fact it seems to leap frog the upcoming announcement from Tesla

*Researchers say ‘salty’ sodium battery as good as lithium-ion*
https://thedriven.io/2020/06/03/researchers-say-salty-sodium-battery-as-good-as-lithium-ion/


----------



## Dona Ferentes (7 June 2020)

basilio said:


> Further details on new cheaper batteries.  In fact it seems to leap frog the upcoming announcement from Tesla
> 
> *Researchers say ‘salty’ sodium battery as good as lithium-ion*
> https://thedriven.io/2020/06/03/researchers-say-salty-sodium-battery-as-good-as-lithium-ion/



_from the blurb: RenewEconomy and its *sister sites *One Step Off The Grid and The Driven will continue to publish throughout the Covid-19 crisis, posting good news about technology and project development, and holding government, regulators and business to account. 
_
Isn't "sister sites" rather old-fashioned? Patronising? Unreconstructed? Patriarchal?


----------



## qldfrog (7 June 2020)

and by extension, white middle aged chauvinist male pig?  or am I mistaking that thread for a black lives matter more than others?
do not stir the shxt here @Dona Ferentes , i know of at least one fish eating the bait hook and sink every time... ;-)


----------



## sptrawler (7 June 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://theconversation.com/amp/hyd...theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899
> You all know by now my scepticism about H2, i believe the above article should settle this once for all.no investment or new technology can change basic physic.
> So where to for H2?
> Well i see a still undeveloped promising field on solar wind farms energy storage with h2 fuel cells acting as batteries and allowing base load from cheap green power, and h2 replacing our lpg train for exports to Asia.
> Comments welcome but please read the article from the link



We have been over this a few times, at this point in time hydrogen is the only sensible replacement for heavy vehicles and aircraft, batteries make the most sense for light application.
As technology improves, one would hope batteries improve and also the production of hydrogen.
My guess is, the next major step will be with solid state batteries.


----------



## qldfrog (7 June 2020)

And maybe the new Tesla batteries?


----------



## sptrawler (12 June 2020)

The fuel companies may at last be seeing the light, and looking to the future.
https://thedriven.io/2020/06/11/res...gns-up-for-network-of-ultra-fast-ev-chargers/


----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2020)

Hydrogen powered tractors and taxis, to be built in Australia, maybe.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-15/hydrogen-car-manufacturer-in-illawarra/12355138


----------



## sptrawler (16 June 2020)

The Federal Government putting money into smart charging, for electric vehicles.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/gover...ctric-car-charging-123770.html?trackLink=SMH2


----------



## Value Collector (17 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> Lol
> I guess staying at home is bad for car sales. I'm sure Elon was close to getting a performance bonus before the lockdown.




Considering there is a waiting list for Tesla vehicles, it probably doesn't have much impact.

However, I must say being able to charge from home and avoid visiting fuel stations and handling bowser pumps is definitely a benefit of electric cars during a pandemic.

Not to mention a huge benefit from a lifestyle perspective the rest of the time, and knowing you wife is always going to be leaving home with a full battery and can charge when she gets home is nice rather than knowing she will have to stop a night some where to fuel up.


----------



## sptrawler (17 June 2020)

Nissan staying in the game.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/nissan-australia-wants-more-electric-cars-123774.html?trackLink=SMH2
From the article:
_Nissan Australia is also lobbying to gather support from the public and the government sector to improve the accessibility of electric cars across the country.

“We’ve had workshops with Australia’s chief scientist talking about electrification, talking about the future and the road map for that and how we can be more prepared for the future,” said Mr Lester.

Nissan says some electric cars will eventually also be able to send power back to the grid, which can be helpful during electricity outages and natural disasters.

“Vehicle to grid will come online in Australia very shortly, that’s already production-ready, and that opens up the opportunity for us to talk to consumers about how they can use their vehicle differently, how that can benefit them,” said Mr Lester_.


----------



## basilio (24 June 2020)

Excellent reviews for electric bus in Victoria.

*First Victoria-built electric bus gets thumbs up from bus expert*
https://thedriven.io/2020/04/27/first-victoria-built-electric-bus-gets-thumbs-up-from-bus-expert/


----------



## basilio (24 June 2020)

Tesla Battery Day has been postponed to September. The news was they were going to announce a Million Mile battery technology.
Suggestion is if they made that announcement before they actually produced the car and battery people would simply cancel their current car orders. After all why would you buy a clearly inferior product now if a far better one was imminent ?

*Update: Tesla Battery Day now set for September, as Musk seeks live audience for million-mile revolution*

...Although Tesla has just re-signed an agreement with battery partner Panasonic locking in prices for the next three years, Jack Rickard, an electric vehicle battery expert and producer of EVTV, believes Tesla is already readying its own battery assembly lines, possibly at Fremont or Nevada.

It’s not the Coronavirus pandemic, or other current social issues like the Black Lives Matter movement, that is delaying Battery Day, says Rickard.

Very simply, he says it is the Osborne effect – what happens when people start cancelling orders because they know there will be a better product available imminently.

“He actually needs to be manufacturing cars with the batteries before he tells you about it or you’ll all quit buying the cars until he can do it,” Rickard said on Saturday in a 40 minute video released on Youtube by Rickard.
“It’s the Osborne effect – he has to be ready to punch the button.”

https://thedriven.io/2020/06/22/tes...ks-live-audience-for-million-mile-revolution/


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2020)

Well those well heeled ASF members can now order a Tesla Roadster, nice looking car for the young exec, or their partner.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/austr...-remains-a-mystery-123817.html?trackLink=SMH2


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (25 June 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well those well heeled ASF members can now order a Tesla Roadster, nice looking car for the young exec, or their partner.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/austr...-remains-a-mystery-123817.html?trackLink=SMH2




I would rather a Porsche Taycan, if I was going to buy an electric vehicle.


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2020)

I just picked up another bike today, more enjoyment than a car, unless you fall off.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (25 June 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I just picked up another bike today, more enjoyment than a car, unless you fall off.




I don't even have a car. Public transport in Sydney is adequate and sufficient; however I am not married and/or have children, so don't really need a car.


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I don't even have a car. Public transport in Sydney is adequate and sufficient; however I am not married and/or have children, so don't really need a car.



I think that is something that people really need to embrace, my generation grew up in an era when cars were an essential item, so adapting to the modern era could be quite difficult.
With the current generation of young adults, I think in capital cities a car is pointles, public transport, cycleways and ride share apps like uber make the owning of a car a waste of opportunity.
The cost of ownership could add considerably to their investment pool.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (25 June 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think that is something that people really need to embrace, my generation grew up in an era when cars were an essential item, so adapting to the modern era could be quite difficult.
> With the current generation of young adults, I think in capital cities a car is pointles, public transport, cycleways and ride share apps like uber make the owning of a car a waste of opportunity.
> The cost of ownership could add considerably to their investment pool.




It is certainly a capital intensive and depreciating asset.


----------



## over9k (26 June 2020)

Unless you're smart with your money and buy a classic (or future classic) car 

Or do you mean for actual transportation, not as a toy? Because you just buy an old but reliable shitebox for transportation, like an old corolla or something. As long as it's been maintained, you'll be fine.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (26 June 2020)

over9k said:


> Unless you're smart with your money and buy a classic (or future classic) car
> 
> Or do you mean for actual transportation, not as a toy? Because you just buy an old but reliable shitebox for transportation, like an old corolla or something. As long as it's been maintained, you'll be fine.




Whisky is a new alternative investment market. I was looking at this company the other day: https://www.caskx.com/

Not sure I would invest, but still interesting.


----------



## qldfrog (26 June 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think that is something that people really need to embrace, my generation grew up in an era when cars were an essential item, so adapting to the modern era could be quite difficult.
> With the current generation of young adults, I think in capital cities a car is pointles, public transport, cycleways and ride share apps like uber make the owning of a car a waste of opportunity.
> The cost of ownership could add considerably to their investment pool.



Until the next virus or crime rates increase or white/black bashing.....
Living in Australia wo a car is like living a in bubble, you have no clue what this country is, and a flight to Darwin or Broome...
As a more regional outer area guy, i actually find it dismal...
People living in a bubble in one of the most urbanised country of the world yet one of the biggest land mass...viewing the world/their own country via social media, shows and a cbd microcosm..
But true, this is the way the world is going
A mass of brainwashed morons addicted to consumption and "comfortable" lives with no thinking, thrill or experience once the ecar will become a commoditized share self driving closed box
What a future....


----------



## moXJO (26 June 2020)

Battery technology hasn't moved much in the domestic or commercial markets for a long time. To tell you the truth, I generally notice it in the latest drill or battery powered tool and that market hasn't  seen much apart from the battery management in dewalt products.

But there are a range of exciting battery tech out there at the moment.  

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...ds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air.amphtml


----------



## qldfrog (26 June 2020)

moXJO said:


> Battery technology hasn't moved much in the domestic or commercial markets for a long time. To tell you the truth, I generally notice it in the latest drill or battery powered tool and that market hasn't  seen much apart from the battery management in dewalt products.
> 
> But there are a range of exciting battery tech out there at the moment.
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...ds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air.amphtml



True, especially excited by the Tesla long life battery, not so much for cars..after all manufacturers will make sure your car is obsolete within 10y so 200 to 500k mileages at most, with gov help
But for home solar plus battery, this is great
Matching life of panel, and longuer than the expected crap built for housing in Australia nowadays


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (26 June 2020)

over9k said:


> Unless you're smart with your money and buy a classic (or future classic) car
> 
> Or do you mean for actual transportation, not as a toy? Because you just buy an old but reliable shitebox for transportation, like an old corolla or something. As long as it's been maintained, you'll be fine.




These guys do pretty well with restoring vehicles; Wheelers and Dealers on Channel 9 Rush:


----------



## SirRumpole (26 June 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> These guys do pretty well with restoring vehicles; Wheelers and Dealers on Channel 9 Rush:
> 
> View attachment 105259




Hasn't been the same since the Old China left.


----------



## sptrawler (29 June 2020)

The U.K government and Land Rover to make a hydrogen car, who says there isn't any money around.
Also there is a faint glimmer of smoke, from the Australian car industry ashes, in the story.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/jaguar-land-rover-hydrogen-suv-is-coming-123833.html?trackLink=SMH2
From the article:
Meanwhile, new Australian hydrogen car company H2X announced last week the company would be partnering with Canberra-based Elvin Group Renewables to manufacture hydrogen production units locally.

It's expected this collaboration will result in a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, with H2X announcing its intention to bring local car manufacturing back to Australia.


----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2020)

Hydrogen is starting to make inroads in heavy transport, U.K to run a hydrogen fueled train.
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...l-bubbles-up-the-agenda-as-investments-rocket
From the article:
In the UK, the transport secretary, Grant Shapps, this week told MPs that the government will experiment with hydrogen fuel cells for an entire town’s bus network. Earlier this month, the Department for Transport gave £400,000 to the Hydroflex project, run by the University of Birmingham and rail-leasing company Porterbrook, to bring the first hydrogen train to UK main lines in the next few weeks.


----------



## sptrawler (1 July 2020)

Electric vehicles as prison guards coming to W.A, I thought mad max was set in Silverton.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...-patrol-wa-prison-for-the-first-time/12383646
I wonder how long it would take a locked up geek, to steal it and use it as a getaway vehicle.
Knowing Kalgoorlie, not long, a great place to test it.


----------



## sptrawler (1 July 2020)

NSW could be world's first, to tax electric cars on distance travelled.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/nsw-g...tric-car-usage-tax-123850.html?trackLink=SMH2


----------



## SirRumpole (1 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Hydrogen is starting to make inroads in heavy transport, U.K to run a hydrogen fueled train.
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...l-bubbles-up-the-agenda-as-investments-rocket
> From the article:
> In the UK, the transport secretary, Grant Shapps, this week told MPs that the government will experiment with hydrogen fuel cells for an entire town’s bus network. Earlier this month, the Department for Transport gave £400,000 to the Hydroflex project, run by the University of Birmingham and rail-leasing company Porterbrook, to bring the first hydrogen train to UK main lines in the next few weeks.





sptrawler said:


> NSW could be world's first, to tax electric cars on distance travelled.
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/nsw-g...tric-car-usage-tax-123850.html?trackLink=SMH2




So I wonder if they will give a discount for people in rural areas who have no choice to drive longer distances because of lack of public transport ?

Anyway, if such a tax is reasonable then it has to happen as EV's become more common.


----------



## over9k (2 July 2020)

Inb4 an entire industry of dodgy tachometers or something springs up. 

Who thinks of this drivel?


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Anyway, if such a tax is reasonable then it has to happen as EV's become more common.



It could be argued that the taxation approach proposed by John Hewson, then Liberal leader, in 1993 would be a solution.

It was simply a flat GST of 15% on everything, no exceptions, and as part of that did away with specific taxes such as fuel anyway.

I'm not saying that's the only way or necessarily the best way, just that it was an actual proposal at the time from a credible political party, one of the two majors, and is one way it could be approached. It's proof of concept that transport doesn't necessarily need to be directly taxed regardless of how it's powered but could be simply seen as just another area of economic activity. Eg we don't have specific taxes on most other things.


----------



## qldfrog (2 July 2020)

Governments always manage to screw up the best of things with taxes. unless uniform rate, it advantage disadvantage sectors people based on assumptions which will mostly be wrong and need another layer of patch up rates exceptions etc
With time , your country efforts goes in controlling avoiding and managing taxes.
Whole professions and PS sectors parasite the society, what a shamble.
We are now getting ready for the next round..but my eBike is taxed as much as his eFerrari
But my eTruck needs this power etc etc


----------



## SirRumpole (2 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> It could be argued that the taxation approach proposed by John Hewson, then Liberal leader, in 1993 would be a solution.
> 
> It was simply a flat GST of 15% on everything, no exceptions, and as part of that did away with specific taxes such as fuel anyway.
> 
> I'm not saying that's the only way or necessarily the best way, just that it was an actual proposal at the time from a credible political party, one of the two majors, and is one way it could be approached. It's proof of concept that transport doesn't necessarily need to be directly taxed regardless of how it's powered but could be simply seen as just another area of economic activity. Eg we don't have specific taxes on most other things.




If such a plan was accompanied by reductions in income tax and appropriate increases in pensions, then fine, and why shouldn't the same principle apply to business ?

In fact a lot of businesses avoid profits tax but they couldn't avoid GST so replacing income tax with GST for business would seem a good idea.


----------



## qldfrog (2 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If such a plan was accompanied by reductions in income tax and appropriate increases in pensions, then fine, and why shouldn't the same principle apply to business ?
> 
> In fact a lot of businesses avoid profits tax but they couldn't avoid GST so replacing income tax with GST for business would seem a good idea.



Universal gst for all individuals, entities would be my dream.


----------



## sptrawler (2 July 2020)

Any one interested in buying an electric Harley and has a lazy $50k sitting around, well I have a lazy $50k in a lot of places, non of them making any money. It is just food and bills comes before an electric M/C.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/m...e/news-story/4d4e2b3ee90cc568ca7114de0427e13f


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> If such a plan was accompanied by reductions in income tax and appropriate increases in pensions, then fine, and why shouldn't the same principle apply to business ?



Yep.

Hewson messed up rather spectacularly with selling the message to the public but the basic concept, that of a very broad tax at a fairly low rate that's inescapable, has a lot of merit in my view.

In the context of the thread, it automatically removes the problem for governments having to deal with changes in consumer spending and a shift to electric vehicles are a classic example of that. The tax system self-adjusts, there's no need to do anything specific.

My underlying thought there is that I see no real reason why transport needs to be hugely taxed. Yes governments spend money on roads but then they also spend money on all sorts of things and we don't have special taxes on all those other things to fund the associated expenditure. 

If the tax issue is removed then that's one obstacle to EV's gone.


----------



## Value Collector (2 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well those well heeled ASF members can now order a Tesla Roadster, nice looking car for the young exec, or their partner.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/austr...-remains-a-mystery-123817.html?trackLink=SMH2




initial discussions with Mrs VC have resulted in a firm “No”, she says it’s a waste of money.

I guess that’s Karma, I spending 15 years teaching her to be a frugal saver, now she doesn’t want to open the purse strings hahaha.


----------



## Value Collector (2 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I would rather a Porsche Taycan, if I was going to buy an electric vehicle.




The roadster is literally the fasted production car on the road, it makes the Porsche look like a toy.


----------



## SirRumpole (2 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> The roadster is literally the fasted production car on the road, it makes the Porsche look like a toy.




What's the point of fast with speed cameras and cop cars everywhere ?


----------



## Value Collector (2 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> What's the point of fast with speed cameras and cop cars everywhere ?




acceleration is fun and practical, not to mention the 1000 km range of the roadster.

being able to go Quietly from 0 to 100km in 1.9 seconds is not only fun but certainly makes pulling out into gaps in traffic and over taking etc a breeze.

Even my model 3 kicks my old commodore to the curb when it comes to merging into traffic from a stand still.

you just put your foot down and in a few seconds you are doing 100kms and hour and you don’t have to rely on the traffic slowing to let you get back on the highway.

hoping back into a slower car feels like your trying to merge into traffic in a horse and cart.


----------



## over9k (2 July 2020)

Fast cars are for track days, duh.


----------



## over9k (3 July 2020)

Also, my god, tesla's run over the past five days...


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (3 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Also, my god, tesla's run over the past five days...




Tesla's run over the last year is unbelievable:


~USD$220 billion market cap is amazing:


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> being able to go Quietly from 0 to 100km in 1.9 seconds



I do see a potential safety issue with something which makes minimal noise and rapidly accelerates.

It's not something that most think about but the whole road environment at present, things light sight distances and speed limits and so on, are all ultimately set up based around present day cars, trucks and buses and their performance.

If cars driven on public streets become capable of accelerating more rapidly or make no noise then that does have some implications.

I note that some countries already have requirements for _minimum_ noise levels from EV's which are above that which an EV naturally makes, so manufacturers are required to intentionally make it louder.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> My underlying thought there is that I see no real reason why transport needs to be hugely taxed. Yes governments spend money on roads but then they also spend money on all sorts of things and we don't have special taxes on all those other things to fund the associated expenditure.




Definitely.

It makes the argument for the diesel fuel rebate for example ludicrous. "Farmers and miners don't use their diesel vehicles on the road so they should get a refund of the fuel excise". The fact is that fuel excise doesn't just get used on roads, so these farmers and miners are taking money away from schools, hospitals, armed forces and universities and whatever else the government spends money on.

Beats me how they have gotten away with it for so long. (It doesn't really, that's what they donate money to political parties for).


----------



## over9k (3 July 2020)

Chronus:

Yeah I'm waiting for a dip to buy into tesla. I was hoping that it might be today but traders liked the economic data more than the spike in virus data. Another couple of weeks of crappy virus data and it should probably be time to buy - maybe next friday or the one following.

Stimulus is still a couple of weeks away if not the end of the month. Need to get in before then. There should be a lot of bad virus data over the weekend so maybe even this coming monday.


----------



## over9k (3 July 2020)

Also, even without today's bounce, by market cap tesla is now bigger than toyota. It cracked the mark just yesterday. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...PG5TQc0J6cWr9lEv_9BPFSLCIGZHXK1-24UPThb5Vea9M


----------



## sptrawler (3 July 2020)

Hydrogen starting to get a head of steam in Europe, this could be big for Australia, on so many fronts.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-53238512


----------



## sptrawler (3 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I do see a potential safety issue with something which makes minimal noise and rapidly accelerates.
> 
> It's not something that most think about but the whole road environment at present, things light sight distances and speed limits and so on, are all ultimately set up based around present day cars, trucks and buses and their performance.
> 
> ...



Funny you mention that, when the wife and I take the grankids to school, we make a point of telling them that with electric cars you will have to look, as you wont hear them.
My guess is some form of noise generator will have to be installed by the manufacturer, whether it is PIR, radar activated or constantly on will be interesting.


----------



## Value Collector (3 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I do see a potential safety issue with something which makes minimal noise and rapidly accelerates.
> 
> It's not something that most think about but the whole road environment at present, things light sight distances and speed limits and so on, are all ultimately set up based around present day cars, trucks and buses and their performance.
> 
> ...




you don’t have to go from 0-100 in 1.9 seconds at every green light, but it sure does help to have the capability in your back pocket.

I think people will learn to prefer quiet cars over noisy ones, At the moment you can hear a rev head from 5 blocks away when he guns it at the lights.

At 10.30 at night when I am trying to concentrate on my X-Men film and drink my hot choclate I can tell you I wish their were more electric cars.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I think people will learn to prefer quiet cars over noisy ones, At the moment you can hear a rev head from 5 blocks away when he guns it at the lights.




You may be required to wave a red flag and sound your horn whenever you see a pedestrian.


----------



## Value Collector (3 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> You may be required to wave a red flag and sound your horn whenever you see a pedestrian.




or people can just do as we were taught as kids and look both ways.

In reality electric cars still make a Tyre noise, and air resistance noise as they pass by, that’s all you really need.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> or people can just do as we were taught as kids and look both ways.
> 
> In reality electric cars still make a Tyre noise, and air resistance noise as they pass by, that’s all you really need.




Unless people are hard of hearing.

It's the law that vehicles give way to pedestrians and drivers are always responsible if a pedestrian gets hit by a vehicle.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> you don’t have to go from 0-100 in 1.9 seconds at every green light, but it sure does help to have the capability in your back pocket.
> 
> I think people will learn to prefer quiet cars over noisy ones, At the moment you can hear a rev head from 5 blocks away when he guns it at the lights.
> 
> At 10.30 at night when I am trying to concentrate on my X-Men film and drink my hot choclate I can tell you I wish their were more electric cars.




From a purely personal perspective agreed, I'd like a nice quiet environment.

If anyone doubts how noisy internal combustion engines really are then as an exercise just try listening to any radio or podcast talk show on earphones whilst walking down the street. Dead easy in a suburban backstreet but come to any main road and you'll find it completely impossible to follow what they're saying since every passing car drowns it out.

But if I was a visually impaired person or even simply just the elderly, disabled etc then the idea of almost silent cars capable of rapid acceleration would scare me most certainly. OK in the hands of responsible drivers but there's plenty of irresponsible drivers around.

If I were responsible for road safety then I'd be seeing this danger to visually impaired people as a problem that I needed to do something about.

It's one of those things where society has adapted to a negative aspect of technology, that is noise, in a way that has made us somewhat reliant upon that negative aspect always being there.

Some countries have already done it, they've mandated that EV's make noise beyond that which they actually need to make for this reason. That is, they have a _minimum_ permitted noise level whilst in motion. 

It's an issue at low speeds primarily. On a highway the tyre and air noise is going to be sufficient and exceeds that of the engine anway. At 40 km/h in the suburbs though, that's where the problem arises since the engine is the only real source of noise in that situation.


----------



## Value Collector (3 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Unless people are hard of hearing.
> 
> It's the law that vehicles give way to pedestrians and drivers are always responsible if a pedestrian gets hit by a vehicle.




With all the cameras and radar equipment on a Tesla, it probably has a lot less chance of hitting a person.

I think you are over estimating the benefits of noisy engines, and under estimating people’s ability to adapt and The amount of safety features that exist on this new generation of cars.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> With all the cameras and radar equipment on a Tesla, it probably has a lot less chance of hitting a person.
> 
> I think you are over estimating the benefits of noisy engines, and under estimating people’s ability to adapt and The amount of safety features that exist on this new generation of cars.




Well as Smurf said I'm all for quiet, I'd rather not be deafened by loud exhausts. Maybe one of the safety features of EV's should be a warning sound when people are detected in the vicinity.


----------



## Value Collector (3 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well as Smurf said I'm all for quiet, I'd rather not be deafened by loud exhausts. Maybe one of the safety features of EV's should be a warning sound when people are detected in the vicinity.




As I said, I don't feel they need it, they aren't "silent" they do make road noise unless you are really creeping along, they just aren't obnoxious like regular cars are.


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## Sdajii (3 July 2020)

The minimum noise issue is an important one. People step out from behind things or from between parked cars. The most common impacts prevented would be from low speed, especially where an engine idling lets you know a car is active rather than switched off. In car parks and busy, chaotic situations, unusual situations, alley ways or other situations where vehicular traffic is infrequent, etc etc, an idling sound is an important safety issue. Unusual situations are the ones people tend to get hit in, not just the standard situation of a normal road with normal traffic.


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## IFocus (3 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I do see a potential safety issue with something which makes minimal noise and rapidly accelerates.




Afraid Smurf I only have envy


----------



## over9k (4 July 2020)

This noise stuff can be solved by something literally as simple as a reversing beeper like on a truck. 

This is nonsense.


----------



## Sdajii (4 July 2020)

over9k said:


> This noise stuff can be solved by something literally as simple as a reversing beeper like on a truck.
> 
> This is nonsense.




I don't think anyone fails to realise how easy it is to solve the problem. We could choose a sound less annoying than a beeping tone though


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (4 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Chronus:
> 
> Yeah I'm waiting for a dip to buy into tesla. I was hoping that it might be today but traders liked the economic data more than the spike in virus data. Another couple of weeks of crappy virus data and it should probably be time to buy - maybe next friday or the one following.
> 
> Stimulus is still a couple of weeks away if not the end of the month. Need to get in before then. There should be a lot of bad virus data over the weekend so maybe even this coming monday.




I like Tesla and I appreciate the company's vision and ideas. I think the company is good for industry innovation and creativity. I wish I had of bought Tesla very early; however I think that I have missed the boat. So it is a bit late for me.


----------



## over9k (4 July 2020)

Nah no way. Musk reckons it's like one quarter away from turning a profit. That'll put it on the indexes and then the big index funds etc will start buying. I'm basically just waiting for a dip/correction in the next few days/couple of weeks at most to buy into.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (4 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Nah no way. Musk reckons it's like one quarter away from turning a profit. That'll put it on the indexes and then the big index funds etc will start buying. I'm basically just waiting for a dip/correction in the next few days/couple of weeks at most to buy into.




We trade to make money; if you can make a trade and make money, all good. I just find that trading Tesla looks very difficult.

Looking at long term investment horizons, I don't have the capital available to consider putting in. So I haven't done a great deal of research on the company.

Also I lost my day job due to COVID; so my risk appetite isn't very strong at the moment.


----------



## ducati916 (4 July 2020)

Just curious....

We had flooding early in the week and I drove through the flood to get to work. Obviously they are designed to withstand rain, so I would think the answer is yes. However,  the water came up to the door. Can an electric car's battery drive through floodwater? Is distance underwater an issue?



jog on
duc


----------



## qldfrog (4 July 2020)

ducati916 said:


> Just curious....
> 
> We had flooding early in the week and I drove through the flood to get to work. Obviously they are designed to withstand rain, so I would think the answer is yes. However,  the water came up to the door. Can an electric car's battery drive through floodwater? Is distance underwater an issue?
> 
> ...



An interesting question as i am crossing 1 causeway to come to my current home : flooded a couple of times normal year, dozens on wet year.i remember reading about a tesla driving around.australia and mentioning crossing flooded creeks
Any actual experience?


----------



## SirRumpole (4 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> An interesting question as i am crossing 1 causeway to come to my current home : flooded a couple of times normal year, dozens on wet year.i remember reading about a tesla driving around.australia and mentioning crossing flooded creeks
> Any actual experience?




Off you go into the wild flooded rivers VC and send us back some info.


----------



## qldfrog (4 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Off you go into the wild flooded rivers VC and send us back some info.



Well more or less what i had in mind, or previous experience? ideally not pink tainted glass views, i do not expect a tesla to match crossing creeks with diesel 4wd, but genuinely, is it an issue?


----------



## Value Collector (4 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I like Tesla and I appreciate the company's vision and ideas. I think the company is good for industry innovation and creativity. I wish I had of bought Tesla very early; however I think that I have missed the boat. So it is a bit late for me.




I guess it depends on if their vision comes about.

They Ould end up being the iPhone, and existing industry being Nokia.

If their self driving vision plays out, Tesla will own the robo Taxi market and kill Uber, its will own the trucking Market, and it will be the car of choice for consumers.

and then there is the solar panels business and stationary power storage business.

I didn't invest in Tesla either, but I can see their is a lot of value there, I just don't know how to value it, I kind of wish I had just bought some shares though, I have always been a fan of the company, but when it came to investing in them a seemed to have dark blue glasses when I should have just swallowed the pill and put the rose coloured ones on, hahaha


----------



## SirRumpole (4 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I guess it depends on if their vision comes about.
> 
> They Ould end up being the iPhone, and existing industry being Nokia.
> 
> ...




Another example of glitz over reality imo.

Why would you invest in a company that has only once recorded an annual profit ?

The share price is inflated by Musk's hype.


----------



## Value Collector (4 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Another example of glitz over reality imo.
> 
> Why would you invest in a company that has only once recorded an annual profit ?
> 
> The share price is inflated by Musk's hype.




Because there is very good reasons for them not to record a profit during their expansion phases, research and development are always loss making activities until one day they are not, So is building multiple factories and charging locations around the world.

So far they have delivered on all the "glitz" that is why I am kicking myself, I knew what they were planning, I knew it would be great for the share price if they pulled it off, But I thought the risk was to high, I have now learned, never doubt Elon, HAHAHA


----------



## SirRumpole (4 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I have now learned, never doubt Elon, HAHAHA




Yeah well, they may be doing ok for know, but mega egos have a habit of tripping themselves up or overreaching eventually. 

I think I'd be cautious in investing in Tesla.


----------



## Value Collector (4 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah well, they may be doing ok for know, but mega egos have a habit of tripping themselves up or overreaching eventually.
> 
> I think I'd be cautious in investing in Tesla.




As I said its not the type of company I can easily value (my little monkey brain has its limits).

But Tesla could become the dominate company in Cars, Trucks, Taxis and Power storage.

Check out this video, its pretty amazing stuff they are doing, its a long video but skip through and listen to a bit of each of the 4 speakers, they are kicking luges goals and are probably a decade ahead of the competition.


----------



## over9k (4 July 2020)

Talk to anyone in engineering: The real money with R&D is not the product you develop at the end but the technologies you develop on the way to creating the product that you can then apply/implement (or sell the ability to apply/implement) in all sorts of other areas.

You know, trickle-down (or out) tech.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (4 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I guess it depends on if their vision comes about.
> 
> They Ould end up being the iPhone, and existing industry being Nokia.
> 
> ...




Yes; totally agree with your post. Tesla do have a very strong following of fans who are emotionally attached to the company. It is good to have sticky investors; I wish Tesla all the best and hope it all works out for them.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Talk to anyone in engineering: The real money with R&D is not the product you develop at the end but the technologies you develop on the way to creating the product that you can then apply/implement (or sell the ability to apply/implement) in all sorts of other areas.
> 
> You know, trickle-down (or out) tech.




Yes true. Like the AI in self drive cars, could be used in a lot of applications.


----------



## over9k (4 July 2020)

And that's the thing - someone else can (will) think of a way to use your tech either standalone or in their own product(s) that you've never even thought of and so you can just licence it to them and make a ton of money in a product that doesn't compete with yours at all.

And with a technology as broad/ubiquitous as say, batteries, the possibilities are near endless. This is by no means narrow-application stuff. 


I was hoping to add an old video of neil degrasse tyson talking about the ridiculous ways in which tech developed from spaceflight funding trickles out into the broader economy/world at large (which is his argument as to why cutting nasa budgets etc is so stupid) to emphasise my point but I can't find the bloody thing.


----------



## qldfrog (5 July 2020)

over9k said:


> And that's the thing - someone else can (will) think of a way to use your tech either standalone or in their own product(s) that you've never even thought of and so you can just licence it to them and make a ton of money in a product that doesn't compete with yours at all.
> 
> And with a technology as broad/ubiquitous as say, batteries, the possibilities are near endless. This is by no means narrow-application stuff.
> 
> ...



as often, great basis and facts but maybe not so right in conclusion: Tesla technology is open source..so no licensing....
I am not against tesla, admire the technology the guy even if he is a complete jerk, but he can afford


----------



## Value Collector (5 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> as often, great basis and facts but maybe not so right in conclusion: Tesla technology is open source..so no licensing....
> I am not against tesla, admire the technology the guy even if he is a complete jerk, but he can afford




that’s actually not entirely true, if you watch that video I posted above they talk about their in house designed self driving computer chip is patented with multiple patents, the software is also private property.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 July 2020)

Sdajii said:


> I don't think anyone fails to realise how easy it is to solve the problem. We could choose a sound less annoying than a beeping tone though




Yep - the EU already has legislation requiring that EV's to emit sound when traveling at speeds below 20 km/h or at any speed whilst reversing to address the problem.

The solution is of course done using speakers not by mechanical means and is known as Acoustic Vehicle Alert Systems (AVAS) as per the EU rules. There's scope for manufacturers to be creative as to the details of the sound but the EU legislation does say it should be similar to an internal combustion engine. 

So an EV traveling at walking pace sounds like a diesel doing the same. That's the requirement basically.

The US is doing likewise and will require AVAS to operate at speeds up to 18.6 miles per hour. 

Reason? Well research in the UK found a ~40% greater likelihood of accidents involving pedestrians with EV's as compared to ICE vehicles and noise, or the lack of it, is the assumed (and only realisticlly plausible) reason for that.

So I'm not sure why anyone sees it as difficult, my only question being why isn't it being done everywhere that such vehicles are sold?


----------



## over9k (5 July 2020)

Government bureaucracies are very slow moving (and bickering, which only delays things further) beasts that's why. Think about how long it's taken to get even basic legislation/regulation of drone usage for example.


----------



## bux2000 (5 July 2020)

I became aware of Nikola Tesla many years ago. 
You have to wonder what he may now think of those using both his Christian and Surnames.
He was certainly no stranger to bickering.

All the best
bux


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (5 July 2020)

bux2000 said:


> I became aware of Nikola Tesla many years ago.
> You have to wonder what he may now think of those using both his Christian and Surnames.
> He was certainly no stranger to bickering.
> 
> ...




Donald Trump's uncle collected Tesla's ideas, works and secrets for the FBI, at the hotel after he died. Small world if true.


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2020)

Hyundai shipping the first 10 hydrogen fuel cell semi's to Switzerland, it will be interesting to see how well they work with the mountainous terrain.
https://auto.hindustantimes.com/aut...trucks-for-commercial-use-41594005618098.html


----------



## qldfrog (7 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Hyundai shipping the first 10 hydrogen fuel cell semi's to Switzerland, it will be interesting to see how well they work with the mountainous terrain.
> https://auto.hindustantimes.com/aut...trucks-for-commercial-use-41594005618098.html



Not worried about terrain more about temperature in winter..
Interesting also is change of atmospheric pressure due to altitude variation.wonder if it is a problem


----------



## Value Collector (10 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Not worried about terrain more about temperature in winter..
> Interesting also is change of atmospheric pressure due to altitude variation.wonder if it is a problem




The thinner the air the less efficient the hydrogen fuel cells are, given than they are basically electric vehicles hills and mountains shouldn't bother them, but the altitude does.


----------



## bux2000 (11 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Donald Trump's uncle collected Tesla's ideas, works and secrets for the FBI, at the hotel after he died. Small world if true.




My apologies for my tardy response yes another very interesting man .......sorry yesterday's language ......Person 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_G._Trump

It is hard to tell by the photo, can only guess...... he was an orange man ? 

All the best

bux


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## Chronos-Plutus (11 July 2020)

bux2000 said:


> My apologies for my tardy response yes another very interesting man .......sorry yesterday's language ......Person
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_G._Trump
> 
> ...




Well like him or not; Trump is clearly supported by FOX news, and FOX gets the best ratings from 5pm to 11pm:




I don't want to get into politics; however if I lived in the USA, I would be a Federalist who votes Republican. In saying this; in Australia, I am a Monarchist who votes Liberal. Anyway, we should stay on topic.


----------



## bux2000 (12 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Anyway, we should stay on topic.




Yes agreed it could all get deep very quickly.
Apologies to everyone for taking the thread off topic.

We visited Amsterdam last year and rode in a Tesla and a Mercedes-Benz E 220 CDI

https://www.treehugger.com/teslas-completed-taxi-rides-amsterdam-airport-4852457

For me though at the moment at least, there is nothing quite like a quirt of diesel in the eye......hmm.......probably have to experience it to appreciate it 
Who would have thought that 2 stroke engine in a Commer Truck would have graduated to win at Lemans

All the best

bux


----------



## bux2000 (12 July 2020)

Maybe I could warm to the idea



All the best

bux


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

bux2000 said:


> Maybe I could warm to the idea
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I would buy a Porsche Taycan if I was in the market for an EV:


----------



## over9k (12 July 2020)

Can we just take a moment to talk about tesla's run over the past couple of weeks. My god. 

There's now 20 billion in shorts betting against it. Some kind of all time record.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Can we just take a moment to talk about tesla's run over the past couple of weeks. My god.
> 
> There's now 20 billion in shorts betting against it. Some kind of all time record.




It has been an exceptional run. Good on you, if you got on the right side of the trade. I am happy for Elon


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## over9k (12 July 2020)

The correction is going to be horrific though. I was expecting it days ago.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

over9k said:


> The correction is going to be horrific though. I was expecting it days ago.




I hope for the Robin Hooder's sake that we don't see an Eiffel Tower


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## over9k (12 July 2020)

Yes that's the problem - what's it going to correct to? The run is so absurd that there's really no way to be sure. I could sell today only to have it run for several days yet and then correct back to slightly above now. It could be anything.

I do know I'll buy a bit more once it does correct though as I see it as a long position. Profitability is due to be cracked next quarter which means it'll start to be bought by the index funds/considered a blue chipper.

Something tells me that decades from now, tesla's going to be an absolute leviathan. The amazon of industrials.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Yes that's the problem - what's it going to correct to? The run is so absurd that there's really no way to be sure. I could sell today only to have it run for several days yet and then correct back to slightly above now. It could be anything.
> 
> I do know I'll buy a bit more once it does correct though as I see it as a long position. Profitability is due to be cracked next quarter which means it'll start to be bought by the index funds/considered a blue chipper.
> 
> Something tells me that decades from now, tesla's going to be an absolute leviathan. The amazon of industrials.




Sure; I think Tesla as a company is excellent for innovation, creativity and competition within the auto industry. I would like to see it become a great success and powerhouse within the industry. A major hurdle that I see for Tesla though is R&D investment; relative to the well established auto industry players, many of which collectively allocate 10s of billions in R&D every year, in direct competition to Tesla.


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## over9k (12 July 2020)

True, but the game's changing and tesla's ahead of that particular curve IMO.


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## basilio (12 July 2020)

I wouldn't be betting against Tesla at the moment.
The  ground changing news is the intended announcement of a million mile battery that will be cheaper than current units. 

The announcement was supposed to be made in June but has been postponed till September. Apparently this happened to enable Tesla to simultaneously announce the battery and have the capacity to deliver it to customers. 
https://thedriven.io/2020/06/22/tes...ks-live-audience-for-million-mile-revolution/


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

over9k said:


> True, but the game's changing and tesla's ahead of that particular curve IMO.




Apparently, they aren't ahead in autonomous driving anymore; though I heard Elon's announcement that Tesla were close to level 5, so not sure. When you have major industry players like Volkswagen who are pumping in more than 1000% R&D than you, it is just a matter of time before you fall behind.

Tesla don't have too many shares on issue, so they may be able to raise equity capital easily if they can convince the market.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

basilio said:


> I wouldn't be betting against Tesla at the moment.
> The  ground changing news is the intended announcement of a million mile battery that will be cheaper than current units.
> 
> The announcement was supposed to be made in June but has been postponed till September. Apparently this happened to enable Tesla to simultaneously announce the battery and have the capacity to deliver it to customers.
> https://thedriven.io/2020/06/22/tes...ks-live-audience-for-million-mile-revolution/




I don't think anyone here is betting against Tesla: we are merely discussing the challenging environment that Tesla must overcome; example R&D investment, relative to peers within the industry.


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## basilio (12 July 2020)

One analysis of where electric cars are going.
*The Osborne Effect: Why new car sales will be all electric in six years*
https://thedriven.io/2020/07/07/the...-car-sales-will-be-all-electric-in-six-years/


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

basilio said:


> One analysis of where electric cars are going.
> *The Osborne Effect: Why new car sales will be all electric in six years*
> https://thedriven.io/2020/07/07/the...-car-sales-will-be-all-electric-in-six-years/




I don't want to get into a political discussion with you Basilio. I know this is what you want, however I am not here to really discuss politics.


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## over9k (12 July 2020)

Six years is a pretty big call. I feel like it's a bit of a clickbait.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Six years is a pretty big call. I feel like it's a bit of a clickbait.




Definitely clickbait.

I did some rough back-of-the-envelope calculations a few years ago; looking at the electricity generation capacity requirements for the USA to move to 100% EVs. The USA would need to build more than 500 1GW nuclear powerplants.


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## sptrawler (12 July 2020)

From memory the U.K did a study on the cost of the infrastructure roll out, to support the electric car charging network, it quite considerable.
On the phone ATM so wont look it up.


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## Value Collector (12 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> From memory the U.K did a study on the cost of the infrastructure roll out, to support the electric car charging network, it quite considerable.
> On the phone ATM so wont look it up.




it would be less than the cost and maintenance of Current fuel stations.

For a start you require a lot less of them, because people can just charge at home.

Just like regular fuel stations they are user pay, and would pay for them selves and naturally expand as demand grows.

look at how the Tesla supercharger network has grown steadily around the world, it didn’t require government funding.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> From memory the U.K did a study on the cost of the infrastructure roll out, to support the electric car charging network, it quite considerable.
> On the phone ATM so wont look it up.




I was very conservative with that number. It could be many times more than that capacity.

Point being that we aren't moving to 100% EVs within the next few decades at least. Maybe next century


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> it would be less than the cost and maintenance of Current fuel stations.
> 
> For a start you require a lot less of them, because people can just charge at home.
> 
> ...




Let's run some basic numbers on the back-of-a-napkin. It has been a few years and maybe I got the numbers mixed up.

The USA uses 142 billion gallons of motor gasoline a year, which 92% is used for vehicles (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/use-of-gasoline.php)

So that is ~130.64 billion gallons a year/ 365 days a year / 24 hours a day = ~15 million gallons of gasoline an hour.

15 million gallons of gasoline an hour = 1.875 billion BTU an hour

1.875 billion BTU an hour = 549508197 KW used every hour = ~549GW used every hour

549GW per hour x 24 hours a day x 365 days a week = *4809240 GW hours of electricity needed per year.

The Ginna nuclear powerplant has a nameplate capacity of 4GW and produces 4,697,675 MWh a year which is 4700GW/hours per year (https://www.americangeosciences.org...ity-does-typical-nuclear-power-plant-generate).

4809240/4700 = 1023 4GW nuclear powerplants*

Want to double check the math. I am a bit rusty, its been a few years


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## over9k (12 July 2020)

There's a documentary called "pump" where the former shell head honcho states that he reckons it'll take 3-4 decades for most cars to be electric only.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

over9k said:


> There's a documentary called "pump" where the former shell head honcho states that he reckons it'll take 3-4 decades for most cars to be electric only.




Do you think I deserve to have a beer after that post Over9k?


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## over9k (12 July 2020)

It was far more effort than I would have put into this argument


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## qldfrog (12 July 2020)

Nice to see back of the envelope figures, that quickly put reality back, do the same on climate warming and you will be surprised then start wondering: all these so called experts, where are they, more exactly what are they?
They exists but few can afford to fight a trend
Anyway this is nice technology and if mankind cracks fission, we will all be cruising on EV


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## basilio (12 July 2020)

I'm a bit bewildered . My reference was to an analysis which suggested that that all /almost all *new car sales *could be electric in 6 years.

That doesn't mean we won't be using petrol for the rest of the current cars. So I can't understand why people make a totally unnecessary straw man argument about substituting all gas sales with electricity.

As far as the analysis goes ?  Basically saying that the cost differential between petrol and electric is rapidly decreasing and that many people are probably waiting a few years before they buy their next car. Interestingly enough if Tesla and other companies are producing a  million mile battery which also helps power their home the value ofg going electric increases significantly.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

basilio said:


> I'm a bit bewildered . My reference was to an analysis which suggested that that all /almost all *new car sales *could be electric in 6 years.
> 
> That doesn't mean we won't be using petrol for the rest of the current cars. So I can't understand why people make a totally unnecessary straw man argument about substituting all gas sales with electricity.
> 
> As far as the analysis goes ?  Basically saying that the cost differential between petrol and electric is rapidly decreasing and that many people are probably waiting a few years before they buy their next car. Interestingly enough if Tesla and other companies are producing a  million mile battery which also helps power their home the value ofg going electric increases significantly.






I just went over those numbers that I posted again; the math is right; just an error with writing the BTU numbers. Should be 1.875×10 to the power of 12 BTU per hour : or 1,875 billion BTU per hour.

So start building your 1023 nuclear powerplants now that have a 4GW nameplate capacity. That is only for the USA, and for last year's gasoline use in the USA. Then you need the transmission networks, the recharge stations; and so on.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I just went over those numbers that I posted again; the math is right; just an error with writing the BTU numbers. Should be 1.875×10 to the power of 12 BTU per hour : or 1,875 billion BTU per hour.
> 
> So start building your 1023 nuclear powerplants now that have a 4GW nameplate capacity. That is only for the USA, and for last year's gasoline use in the USA. Then you need the transmission networks, the recharge stations; and so on.




ALL ALICE IN WONDERLAND FANTASY STUFF. 100% EVs, not this century, unless we manage to develop and commercialise nuclear fusion energy or completely embrace nuclear fission; which will still come at an astronomical cost that would bankrupt nations.


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## Austwide (12 July 2020)

You forgot to take away the power currently being used by the refineries and petrol bowsers.
So it's only 1020 new nuclear powerplants needed.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

Austwide said:


> You forgot to take away the power currently being used by the refineries and petrol bowsers.
> So it's only 1020 new nuclear powerplants needed.




I think we all get the point that 100% EVs, in the USA, isn't happening in our lifetime and I am just in my mid 30s.

We might be able to do a 100% mix of hydrogen vehicles and EVs in Australia, without nuclear. Not easy though.

I am all for smart allocation of resources which is based on intelligent economics. Like:

- Biogas plants that use sewage, domestic animal waste, and green waste; to produce methane.

- A tidal barrage in WA that produces hydrogen.

- Incineration of municipal waste to generate electricity.

Even these ideas are difficult to bring into commercialisation in Australia.


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## bux2000 (12 July 2020)

I don't know.........for me I tend to categorize vehicles by driving behavior on the road.
Probably rate them dick to super dick to well.......I am old and grumpy so A hole escapes from my tight lips ... seldom........honest 
You have Ford Ranger drivers following 50mm off your back bumper the frustration obvious only then to  pass on the left back in to fill the safe travelling distance you were leaving between you and the car in front. Audi Q 7 drivers weaving between cars disappearing into  the distance. Older Ford Falcons been driven with people of a lesser IQ etc.etc

Our local Countdown yes that Aussie one with the disguised WW in the middle of the logo, has a free charging station in the car park sponsored  by the local power company. I don't go to that car park often but I have seen what are best described as disputes over the time one or other has spent in the space plugged in as it were.
And the Prius drivers...well...have the licence to never let you in ...The Nissan leaf drivers and the EV nv200 van drivers and well the EV Golf drivers all  have that smirk  on their face as they line you up from behind to silently take you out at the knees in the car park.......
......looking for the word here .....Seniors .....on their mobility scooter  taking you out as they almost complete  that final stage of the high speed turning maneuver necessary at approach and leaving the pedestrian crossing at warp speed.
There appears to be a correlation between the turning arc calculation of the mobility scooter and the strategic positioning of the money machine used to distract the victim.

There is nothing wrong with a drip or two of black oil on the Car Shed floor in my opinion.

All the best

bux


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

bux2000 said:


> I don't know.........for me I tend to categorize vehicles by driving behavior on the road.
> Probably rate them dick to super dick to well.......I am old and grumpy so A hole escapes from my tight lips ... seldom........honest
> You have Ford Ranger drivers following 50mm off your back bumper the frustration obvious only then to  pass on the left back in to fill the safe travelling distance you were leaving between you and the car in front. Audi Q 7 drivers weaving between cars disappearing into  the distance. Older Ford Falcons been driven with people of a lesser IQ etc.etc
> 
> ...




To be honest, I am a bit sentimental also. I loved ripping apart engines and putting them back together when I was doing my apprenticeship.

These days, I don't even have a car; however I am not married with kids and live in very close proximity to the city.

Realistically: we should be building a new era of public transport that is efficient, clean, fast, reliable, frequent and cheap; within our major cities, if we really want to tread lightly on the planet.

Not light rail in Sydney


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> To be honest, I am a bit sentimental also. I loved ripping apart engines and putting them back together when I was doing my apprenticeship.
> 
> These days, I don't even have a car; however I am not married with kids and live in very close proximity to the city.
> 
> ...




Perhaps Elon's next venture! Clean public transport. You can send me the check in the post Elon


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## Smurf1976 (12 July 2020)

over9k said:


> There's a documentary called "pump" where the former shell head honcho states that he reckons it'll take 3-4 decades for most cars to be electric only.




If we take "most" to mean 95% or so (my assumption) then that would happen if we reached a point ~15 years from now where all new car sales are EV's.

A point often missed is that the average lifespan of a car is a bit over 20 years unless it's written off in a crash or stolen. Hence there's still plenty of year 2000 cars in daily use today but very few that are pre-1990.

So if we assume that ICE cars are still manufactured in at least a significant volume over the next decade then 30 - 40 years to get to electric dominance seems reasonable.


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## Smurf1976 (12 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Perhaps Elon's next venture! Clean public transport.



I don't know in regards to what but in terms of next ventures, well it's been reported in the media that he's been having discussions with Australian shipbuilder Incat.


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## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't know in regards to what but in terms of next ventures, well it's been reported in the media that he's been having discussions with Australian shipbuilder Incat.




A ship that produces hydrogen, from seawater, for its propulsion system?

Or just electric batteries?


----------



## Value Collector (12 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Let's run some basic numbers on the back-of-a-napkin. It has been a few years and maybe I got the numbers mixed up.
> 
> The USA uses 142 billion gallons of motor gasoline a year, which 92% is used for vehicles (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/use-of-gasoline.php)
> 
> ...




You missed a few major points.

1, Electric cars are a lot more efficient than gasoline cars, so it takes a lot less BTU’s to drive a mile using electric than it does Combustion engine.

2, refining oil and pumping It uses electricity and natural gas itself, so when you aren’t Refining oil you use less electricity.

3, cars can be charged at odd hours, allowing you to use existing capacity That goes unused or idled back at certain times.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> You missed a few major points.
> 
> 1, Electric cars are a lot more efficient than gasoline cars, so it takes a lot less BTU’s to drive a mile using electric than it does Combustion engine.
> 
> ...




Come now; really? We are talking about ~4 Terawatts of nameplate capacity that will cost ~USD$24 Trillion just for the powerplants; if we say ~USD$6 Billion per GW of nuclear capacity.

$24 Trillion dollars, buddy. Then add on the cost of the transmission networks and recharge stations.

Just in the USA alone.

I like Elon; not in a gay way, because I am not gay , however we have to be reasonable here.

Tesla can still do very well in the auto market though.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Come now; really? We are talking about ~4 Terawatts of nameplate capacity that will cost ~USD$24 Trillion just for the powerplants; if we say ~USD$6 Billion per GW of nuclear capacity.
> 
> $24 Trillion dollars, buddy. Then add on the cost of the transmission networks and recharge stations.
> 
> Just in the USA alone.



The other issue of course that must be added to the equation, is the replacement of the existing fossil fueled power generators + add the other forms of transport, other than cars e.g trucks, planes etc.
Like I said at the beginning of all these discussions, most people can't get their heads around the enormity of the issue, they just keep chanting "do it and do it now".
Then when you try to explain the enormity of the problem, the good old chestnut of just put in wind turbines and solar panels is thrown up, because the idiotic media keep dishing up the nonsense and the muppets swallow it up like ice cream.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The other issue of course that must be added to the equation, is the replacement of the existing fossil fueled power generators + add the other forms of transport, other than cars e.g trucks, planes etc.
> Like I said at the beginning of all these discussions, most people can't get their heads around the enormity of the issue, they just keep chanting "do it and do it now".




The stranded assets are colossal. Realistically; it won't be happening this century.

Perhaps: if there is a massive coordinated effort with the big energy players; that are supported with government funding, to start building nuclear powerplants *NOW. *If so, we might be able to get to 100% EVs before the end of this century.

Not likely though.


----------



## sptrawler (12 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> The stranded assets are colossal. Realistically it won't be happening this century.
> 
> Perhaps: if there is a massive coordinated effort with the big energy players, that are supported with government funding to start building nuclear powerplants *NOW. *If so, we might be able to get to 100% EVs before the end of this century.
> 
> Not likely though.



I think it is plausible Australia could become full clean energy generation, but I think that probably still would require a nuclear component, but we are in the unique situation of having great resources(flat land mass, sun & wind) and a small population.
So electric cars will actually assist in the storage capacity, to support the intermittency of the renewables.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> A ship that produces hydrogen, from seawater, for its propulsion system?
> 
> Or just electric batteries?




I don't know but Incat itself is quite innovative. Ships built by the company have held the Trans Atlantic crossing speed record continuously since 1990 for example, two later Incat-built ships having broken the 1990 record in that time.

Their vessels have mostly used conventional diesel engines although they've built LNG powered ones too for customers who wanted them. That's LNG to power the passenger ship, not a ship to transport LNG as a tanker etc.

What they're doing with Tesla I've no idea but it has been reported in the mainstream media that he's been talking with them.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think it is plausible Australia could become full clean energy generation, but I think that probably still would require a nuclear component, but we are in the unique situation of having great resources(flat land mass, sun & wind) and a small population.
> So electric cars will actually assist in the storage capacity, to support the intermittency of the renewables.
> Just my opinion.




I agree with you that it can be done. Not easy though and still an expensive transition, even with our low population. I would start with:

- A large tidal barrage powerplant in North WA, that produces hydrogen.

- Municipal waste will be incinerated to produce electricity.

- Biogas plants that produce methane from human and animal sewage, and green waste.

- Roof-top solar for all houses that are deemed economically feasible.

- Bass Strait integrated hybrid wind and marine turbines.

- Ethanol production in Far Northern Queensland.

*A nation that doesn't need to rely on mining for fossil fuels anymore*; at a great cost, major energy players onboard, and of course government funding.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't know but Incat itself is quite innovative. Ships built by the company have held the Trans Atlantic crossing speed record continuously since 1990 for example, two later Incat-built ships having broken the 1990 record in that time.
> 
> Their vessels have mostly used conventional diesel engines although they've built LNG powered ones too for customers who wanted them. That's LNG to power the passenger ship, not a ship to transport LNG as a tanker etc.
> 
> What they're doing with Tesla I've no idea but it has been reported in the mainstream media that he's been talking with them.




I would rather to just have a small nuclear powerplant to power the ship.

In saying this; we could have the majority of the exposed surface of the ship harnessing solar energy. Then when the ship is anchored we can have a wind turbine deployed.
This will recharge Elon's batteries for the ship.
Hydrogen might be more efficient if we had the economy in Australia to support it.


----------



## Value Collector (12 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Come now; really? We are talking about ~4 Terawatts of nameplate capacity that will cost ~USD$24 Trillion just for the powerplants; if we say ~USD$6 Billion per GW of nuclear capacity.
> 
> $24 Trillion dollars, buddy. Then add on the cost of the transmission networks and recharge stations.
> 
> ...




I am not sure you understood my points.

to produce 1L of petrol, you don’t just need oil, you also need electricity to run the refinery, if you instead just charged a car with that electricity the car would be able to drive nearly as far as a petrol car goes on 1L of fuel.

Eg. Petrol = Oil + Electricity,  where as if you just take that electricity consumed in oil refining and put it into a Tesla you get almost the same driving distance as the petrol. 

Which gets me to my other point, you were comparing BTU’s of Gasoline to BTU’s of electricity, as if electric cars require the same amount of BTUs to travel similar distances, electric vehicles do not need the same amount of energy as Gasoline cars, due to much lower losses and regen braking etc.

also do you really think the world is going to go electric over night? The process will be gradual, and any adjustments to the grid can be made easily over that time frame.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure you understood my points.
> 
> to produce 1L of petrol, you don’t just need oil, you also need electricity to run the refinery, if you instead just charged a car with that electricity the car would be able to drive nearly as far as a petrol car goes on 1L of fuel.
> 
> ...




I understand your points and disagree, we have reached an impasse. You still have to mine the coal, uranium; or drill the gas or oil; to create electricity; to then recharge your EVs.

I have put forward my numbers, you put forward yours.

 I  basically don't believe this will be a whale oil to crude oil transition.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I understand your points and disagree, we have reached an impasse. I  basically don't believe this will be a whale oil to crude oil transition.




I am not sure how you can disagree with facts.

it takes 6KWH of electricity to make a gallon of gasoline. (That’s electricity the refinery is drawing from the grid)

When that gallon of gasoline goes into a car it drives the car 24 miles, however if you instead left the oil in the ground and just used to 6KWH of electricity The refinery was going to draw from the grid to charge a car directly you would be able to drive 20 miles.

So a large chunk of the electricity needed to charge cars can come from reductions in the electricity the draw Refining oil.

https://greentransportation.info/energy-transportation/gasoline-costs-6kwh.html


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## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure how you can disagree with facts.
> 
> it takes 6KWH of electricity to make a gallon of gasoline.
> 
> ...




You still have to mine the coal, uranium; or drill the gas or oil; to create electricity; to then recharge your EVs.

If you think you can supply all the power from wind and/or solar then provide me with the numbers please; just for the USA.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You still have to mine the coal, uranium; or drill the gas or oil; to create electricity; to then recharge your EVs.
> 
> If you think you can supply all the power from wind and/or solar then provide me with the numbers please; just for the USA.




I have already been down this rabbit hole.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You still have to mine the coal, uranium; or drill the gas or oil; to create electricity;
> 
> .




We are already doing that to produce the 6KWH of electricity we need to refine each gallon of gasoline we produce. (I really think you are not understanding the point here)

Not to mention we could burn the oil to make electricity rather than refine it into gasoline, and with the electricity savings and the oil itself run 3 electric cars instead 1 gasoline one.

meanwhile I charge my car at home using my solar panels directly, which by the way uses less electricity than my electric hot water system.


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## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> We are already doing that to produce the 6KWH of electricity we need to refine each gallon of gasoline we produce. (I really think you are not understanding the point here)
> 
> meanwhile I charge my car at home using my solar panels directly.




I have given you figures for the USA; present yours, if you think I am wrong!


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I have given you figures for the USA; present yours, if you think I am wrong!




your figures are wrong, you assume an electric car and gasoline powered car use the same amount of BTUs per mile, this is far from true.

Also, you are only counting the BTUs in the gasoline itself, you haven’t allowed for the fact that to make a gallon of gasoline you need to consume 6KWH of electricity which could be used to charge cars directly.

These two facts alone completely blow your figures out of the water,


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> your figures are wrong, you assume an electric car and gasoline powered car use the same amount of BTUs per mile, this is far from true.
> 
> Also, you are only counting the BTUs in the gasoline itself, you haven’t allowed for the fact that to make a gallon of gasoline you need to consume 6KWH of electricity which could be used to charge cars directly.
> 
> These two facts alone completely blow your figures out of the water,




OK; so we are going to spend the next 24 hours formulating a precise figure?

Who is going to pay me to do this?

We are still talking 10s of trillions of dollars with massive assets that will be stranded in the USA.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> your figures are wrong, you assume an electric car and gasoline powered car use the same amount of BTUs per mile, this is far from true.
> 
> Also, you are only counting the BTUs in the gasoline itself, you haven’t allowed for the fact that to make a gallon of gasoline you need to consume 6KWH of electricity which could be used to charge cars directly.
> 
> These two facts alone completely blow your figures out of the water,




You certainly aren't an academic!

An academic would have the decency to at least put forward their own figures, if they disagreed!


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You certainly aren't an academic!
> 
> An academic would have the decency to at least put forward their own figures, if they disagreed!




I did give you figures, And I provided a link.

I said for every gallon of gasoline that gets made, 6kwh of electricity is used, and that electricity alone is nearly enough to get an electric car the same distance as the gallon of gasoline without requiring the actual gasoline.

do you understand that refining oil consumes a lot of electricity? So existing Petrol cars are already consuming nearly as much electricity As it would take to charge electric cars.

so it’s not like we need ship loads of extra capacity build over night.

——————

The other the point you are missing is that from “Well to wheels” petrol cars use about 5 times the amount of energy as Electric cars, So your assumption that we would need to install additional electricity capacity equal to the BTUs of petrol cars is way off, especially as I explained a chunk of that energy Used by petrol cars is actually electricity consumed in the refining process.

So when you fill up your petrol car you are not just consuming oil, you are also consuming a large chunk of electricity, so if you switched to an electric car it won’t require that much more electricity than you are already indirectly using to power your petrol car.




> We are still talking 10s of trillions of dollars with massive assets that will be stranded in the USA.




The USA hasn’t built a new refinery since the 1970’s, so their assets have had a good run.

And as I said it won’t happen over night it will be a long process and they can still refine jet fuel and other products, hell they can even install some oil burning electric generators and send some electricity to the grid if we really need more capacity and it would still be a lot cleaner than powering combustion engine cars, because as I explained electric cars require 5 times less energy.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

_Here is an interesting article explaining some of the facts I have mentioned.
_
* “In fact, their well to wheel calculations show that to drive 1km in an average petrol vehicle uses 1.36kWh/km while the average figure for electric cars is just 0.28kWh/km – an energy use figure close to five times less than for petrol cars.”*
*
https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/evs-are-they-really-more-efficient/

*


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I did give you figures, And I provided a link.
> 
> I said for every gallon of gasoline that gets made, 6kwh of electricity is used, and that electricity alone is nearly enough to get an electric car the same distance as the gallon of gasoline without requiring the actual gasoline.
> 
> ...




No; I asked you to put forward what additional nameplate capacity is required for 100% EVs in the USA.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> _Here is an interesting article explaining some of the facts I have mentioned.
> _
> * “In fact, their well to wheel calculations show that to drive 1km in an average petrol vehicle uses 1.36kWh/km while the average figure for electric cars is just 0.28kWh/km – an energy use figure close to five times less than for petrol cars.”
> 
> ...




What is the additional nameplate capacity for 100% EVs in the USA?

Please answer the question.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Not to mention we could burn the oil to make electricity rather than refine it into gasoline




I'll keep out of the emotive stuff and simply confirm that direct burn crude oil to electricity, that is without refining the oil, is technically very possible.

Japan and Saudi Arabia have both done it to significant extent in the past.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll keep out of the emotive stuff and simply confirm that direct burn crude oil to electricity, that is without refining the oil, is technically very possible.
> 
> Japan and Saudi Arabia have both done it to significant extent in the past.




I only provided a very rough metric for the USA. I am sure Scomo can ask Dr Finkel to get a team together, to get a much more precise metric for Australia, based on different energy supply scenarios.
Time to get some sleep.
Goodnight Smurf


----------



## qldfrog (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I agree with you that it can be done. Not easy though and still an expensive transition, even with our low population. I would start with:
> 
> - A large tidal barrage powerplant in North WA, that produces hydrogen.
> 
> ...



Why? That is the questions otherwise self inflicted economic damage in case we had not enough on our plate here?


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll keep out of the emotive stuff and simply confirm that direct burn crude oil to electricity, that is without refining the oil, is technically very possible.
> 
> Japan and Saudi Arabia have both done it to significant extent in the past.




yep offcourse it is, we used to do it here.

And not only is it possible, but burning 100% of the barrel of oil to generate electricity to power an EV, will drive that EV much further than refining that barrel down to its gasoline components and then using that residual amount of gasoline in a combustion engine to power a car.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> No; I asked you to put forward what additional nameplate capacity is required for 100% EVs in the USA.




If you understand the points I have already raised you would understand that it is not much extra capacity, because 

1, a decent chunk of the existing name plate capacity is already being used to power cars indirectly through oil refineries.

2, the grid doesn’t actually use its full name plate capacity for extended periods each day, and cars can be charged during these “offpeak” times.

3, more electricity capacity can be installed pretty quickly, and as I said the crude oil and natural gas used in refining could be quickly diverted into electricity production.

4, the is a big correlation between EV ownership and Solar panel ownership, once you get an EV 90% of people get solar, they go had in hand.

and you would also understand that the process of switching over will be so gradual it’s almost not worth thinking about, the market will just naturally adjust.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

It’s also not just consumers adding solar to their house when they get an EV.

Tesla is adding solar panels to their charging locations, it just makes business sense to produce solar power nearby where you are selling electricity to customers.


----------



## over9k (13 July 2020)

The sad reality is that only about 4% of the world's surface can make an economic go of renewable energy in its current technological form. Not to say that that won't change, but the green revolution is not going to happen next week. Germany spent two trillion euro's trying to do it and they're now burning not just coal but the worst kind of coal there is for emissions.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> It’s also not just consumers adding solar to their house when they get an EV.
> 
> Tesla is adding solar panels to their charging locations, it just makes business sense to produce solar power nearby where you are selling electricity to customers.
> 
> View attachment 105902




I'm surprised that Tesla vehicles don't have solar panels on the bodywork so they can charge when in the sun.


----------



## basilio (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I did give you figures, And I provided a link.
> 
> I said for every gallon of gasoline that gets made, 6kwh of electricity is used, and that electricity alone is nearly enough to get an electric car the same distance as the gallon of gasoline without requiring the actual gasoline.
> 
> ...




Good story VC and the use of electricity to power cars is far more efficient than petrol.  And certainly re purposing and improving our energy systems to integrate EV transport is doable. It certainly won't need "vast" new power supplies. The serious analysts believe an extra 20% capacity Australia would cover us going EV.

What is interesting is the figure of "6kwh of electricity per gallon of gasoline ". Really ?  That analysis has been kicked around many times and it is far more more complex and subtle than any simple figure suggest. 

I found an excellent overview from a Chemical engineer. The detail is fascinating and easy to grasp. Well worth a read.

*So: Exactly How Much Electricity Does it Take To Produce A Gallon of Gasoline?*
First, why do I care what the answer is? And why should you care? A little history may help you understand.

My son Jacob and I took on a project a little over three years ago, to convert my 1975 Triumph Spitfire roadster into a fully electric vehicle, which we call the E-Fire. The project flowed from my personal and professional interests in the transition to renewable energy sources and in reducing the environmental impact of global energy consumption. It was also spurred on by my purchase of our first Prius in 2008. I have driven nothing but Priuses since: I’m fascinated by the seamless way that Toyota managed to integrate the EV drivetrain with the Atkinson cycle gasoline engine. The vehicle not only has exceptional fuel economy, but toxic emissions are also greatly reduced. 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-exactly-how-much-electricity-does-take-produce-gallon-paul-martin


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## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

My math was right but my inputs were wrong, this is it now:

The USA uses 142 billion gallons of motor gasoline a year, which 92% is used for vehicles (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/use-of-gasoline.php)

So that is ~130.64 billion gallons a year/ 365 days a year / 24 hours a day = ~15 million gallons of gasoline an hour.

15 million gallons of gasoline an hour = 1,875 billion BTU an hour

1,875 billion BTU an hour = 549508197 KW used every hour = ~549GW used every hour

549GW per hour x 24 hours a day x 365 days a week = *4809240 GW hours of electricity needed per year.*

*The Ginna nuclear powerplant has a nameplate capacity of 500MW and produces 4,697,675 MWh a year which is 4700GW/hours per year (**https://www.americangeosciences.org...ity-does-typical-nuclear-power-plant-generate**).*

*4809240/4700 = 1023 500MW nuclear powerplants*

*Which is back to my initial comment of around 500 1GW nuclear reactors.*

*Cost ~$6 billion per GW  = ~$3 Trillion just for the powerplants*

These people have it at:


http://euanmearns.com/how-much-more-electricity-do-we-need-to-go-to-100-electric-vehicles/


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

I believe this discussion is now closed for me. My initial comments of ~500 1GW nuclear reactors stands as it is. I have shown how I have come to the figure.

On this note, I take a bow


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> My math was right but my inputs were wrong, this is it now:
> 
> The USA uses 142 billion gallons of motor gasoline a year, which 92% is used for vehicles (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/use-of-gasoline.php)
> 
> ...




As far as I can see your calculation is still wrong, you are still working on the same flawed assumptions.

1, You are still assuming EV's use the same amount of energy as Gasoline cars, when infact gasoline cars are only 30% - 40% efficient and EV's are about 85% - 90% efficient. (that would halve your energy requirement straight away)

2, You aren't allowing for the fact that once you stop refining gasoline you will have freed up a lot of electricity capacity that normally goes towards refining that gasoline. (That would cover about at least 50% of the Evs that need charging)

3, you are assuming the grid is already operating at 100% capacity, ignoring the fact that EV's could be charged at off peak times when the grid is only operating at 30% of its full capacity. (that use of the latent capacity would easily charge the bulk of Ev's by itself)

4, Natural growth in Solar by the Ev owners themselves and the charging companies.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm surprised that Tesla vehicles don't have solar panels on the bodywork so they can charge when in the sun.




It's not really ideal due to the space needed for an effective out put, and the fact that people prefer to park their cars in shade.

How ever the cyber truck is going to have options for solar panels.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

over9k said:


> The sad reality is that only about 4% of the world's surface can make an economic go of renewable energy in its current technological form. Not to say that that won't change, but the green revolution is not going to happen next week. Germany spent two trillion euro's trying to do it and they're now burning not just coal but the worst kind of coal there is for emissions.




What percentage of the worlds surface would need to be used to power the world? I bet its less than 4%.

and solar can be installed on existing buildings and structures, Urban areas already cover 3% of the globe, chuck solar panels on every building and structure, wind farms where they can go, and build different types of storage and then Roberts your fathers brother.


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## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> As far as I can see your calculation is still wrong, you are still working on the same flawed assumptions.
> 
> 1, You are still assuming EV's use the same amount of energy as Gasoline cars, when infact gasoline cars are only 30% - 40% efficient and EV's are about 85% - 90% efficient. (that would halve your energy requirement straight away)
> 
> ...




Well my assumptions are very rough, I have said that from the start. I don't have any incentive to research and build a more accurate and precise figure.

What I can gather from my back-of-the-envelope figures, is that it will cost trillions of dollars in powerplants and support infrastructure.

If the electrical grid capacity isn't a big deal, then the private sector shouldn't need any government funding or support.


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2020)

Some great points brought up by all, an interesting topic, that will be ongoing for a long time IMO.


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## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Some great points brought up by all, an interesting topic, that will be ongoing for a long time IMO.




We can jump down this rabbit hole; however it will take up an enormous amount of our time and mental energy.

To get a precise metric we would need to factor in many variables like the energy cost to produce batteries relative to internal combustion engines, how often batteries need to be changed over, capacity factors of energy supply, transmission loss of network, battery power loss at recharge stations, recycling energy costs of batteries, stranded asset costs, associated infrastructure costs for battery stations, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I am happy knowing that it will cost trillions of dollars in the USA, and hundreds of billions of dollars in Australia; hopefully not at the expense of the taxpayer.

Here is an interesting read: https://www.masterresource.org/electric-vehicles/energy-usage-cost-gasoline-vs-electric/

Scomo can ask our Chief Scientist to get a team together and produce a full report on this issue. These people get paid to do this work.


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## basilio (13 July 2020)

*How much solar would it take to power the U.S.?*
Critics claim that there simply isn’t enough land in the U.S. for solar to power the country. While it’s not an immediately practical question, it’s still fun to ponder. So, ignoring practical constraints like storage and grid technology, let’s explore whether we can fit enough solar to electrify the U.S.
https://www.freeingenergy.com/how-much-solar-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s/


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> We can jump down this rabbit hole; however it will take up an enormous amount of our time and mental energy.
> 
> To get a precise metric we would need to factor in many variables like the energy cost to produce batteries relative to internal combustion engines, how often batteries need to be changed over, capacity factors of energy supply, transmission loss of network, battery power loss at recharge stations, recycling energy costs of batteries, stranded asset costs, associated infrastructure costs for battery stations, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
> 
> ...



I'm sure you are right, there are several aspects that haven't been addressed, the power generation currently used to make petrol, is fossil fuel fired so therefore it will have to be replaced anyway.
Then there is the issue of the rissidual chemical waste from depleted batteries, in their current configuration, cars can be quite easily recycled.
Then the issue of finite resources to make the batteries, there is always talk of new battery technology around the corner, untill now the road leading to the corner is proving long and straight.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I'm sure you are right, there are several aspects that haven't been addressed, the power generation currently used to make petrol, is fossil fuel fired so therefore it will have to be replaced anyway.
> Then there is the issue of the rissidual chemical waste from depleted batteries, in their current configuration, cars can be quite easily recycled.
> Then the issue of finite resources to make the batteries, there is always talk of new battery technology around the corner, untill now the road leading to the corner is proving long and straight.




People seem to forget that we still need to burn the gas/oil to produce the electricity, to then recharge the batteries 

So I am happy with my basic and straight forward conversion.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> 15 million gallons of gasoline an hour = 1,875 billion BTU an hour
> 
> 1,875 billion BTU an hour = 549508197 KW used every hour = ~549GW used every hour
> 
> 549GW per hour x 24 hours a day x 365 days a week = *4809240 GW hours of electricity needed per year.*




The step missing in the calculations is the thermodynamic efficiency of the gasoline fuelled engine versus the efficiency of batteries and an electric motor.

There's no need for electricity to replace the heat input from gasoline, since heat itself from a car engine is not useful beyond minor amounts, it only needs to produce the same motive power to the wheels.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> People seem to forget that we still need to burn the gas/oil to produce the electricity, to then recharge the batteries



We would however be using far less of it.

Even the worst power station currently operating in the main grid in Australia achieves efficiency comparable to an average petrol car engine. Any modern power station is very much better than that.


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2020)

basilio said:


> *How much solar would it take to power the U.S.?*
> Critics claim that there simply isn’t enough land in the U.S. for solar to power the country. While it’s not an immediately practical question, it’s still fun to ponder. So, ignoring practical constraints like storage and grid technology, let’s explore whether we can fit enough solar to electrify the U.S.
> https://www.freeingenergy.com/how-much-solar-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s/



The first thing with the report is, they are quoting land area required for molten salt storage generators, which in 2013 was the holy grail.
The land requirement for PV panels is near double that of molten salt, then there is the issue of intermittency and storage.
Since then, they are finding molten salt generators don't produce anywhere near rated capacity, the U.S manufacturers have gone into liquidation.
So in reality using data from 2013, is a bit shaky, but it is a good article.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...olar-power-companies-have-all-but-disappeared


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2020)

The big asset the electric car has at this point in time IMO is the battery, the storage aspect and feed in ability, will make it an attractive proposition for households.
The biggest liability is also the battery, it is the costliest part and they are only guaranteed  to 60% capacity after 8 years.
But the push will continue regardless of what we think.
The other aspect we have talked about in various threads, is the fact that capitalism works on the premise consumers keep replacing stuff, what greater stimulus than changing over the transport fleet.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> We would however be using far less of it.
> 
> Even the worst power station currently operating in the main grid in Australia achieves efficiency comparable to an average petrol car engine. Any modern power station is very much better than that.




We will still be burning oil and gas to power the machines to extract all the resources to make the batteries.

We will still be burning oil, gas and coal in the power stations to generate the electricity to recharge all the batteries.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The step missing in the calculations is the thermodynamic efficiency of the gasoline fuelled engine versus the efficiency of batteries and an electric motor.
> 
> There's no need for electricity to replace the heat input from gasoline, since heat itself from a car engine is not useful beyond minor amounts, it only needs to produce the same motive power to the wheels.




I still expect that we will be burning oil, gas and coal in our power stations to generate the electricity to recharge the batteries.

It was a simple and quick calculation to get a rough idea of the energy and electricity involved and the costs.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Well my assumptions are very rough,



 Rough is an understatement, I can see you logic but as I said its just flawed for the reasons I have stated



> If the electrical grid capacity isn't a big deal, then the private sector shouldn't need any government funding or support.




I agree, thats what I said from the start, it won't require much support at all, electric charging infrastructure is cheaper and simpler than petrol refuelling infrastructure, its so simple most of us just charge in our garage, and the public chargers are unmanned systems that install much quicker than building a petrol station.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Rough is an understatement, I can see you logic but as I said its just flawed for the reasons I have stated
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, thats what I said from the start, it won't require much support at all, electric charging infrastructure is cheaper and simpler than petrol refuelling infrastructure, its so simple most of us just charge in our garage, and the public chargers are unmanned systems that install much quicker than building a petrol station.




OK; we have obviously reached an impasse.

As I said to Smurf: I still expect that we will be burning oil, gas and coal in our power stations to generate the electricity to recharge the batteries.

We will still be burning oil and gas to power the machines to extract all the resources to make the batteries.

It was a simple and quick calculation to get a rough idea of the energy and electricity involved and the costs.

You can try to persuade our politicians that it isn't a big deal to go 100% EV.

Good luck.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I still expect that we will be burning oil, gas and coal in our power stations to generate the electricity to recharge the batteries.
> 
> It was a simple and quick calculation to get a rough idea of the energy involved and the costs.




yes for a while at least.

but 100% of gasoline comes from oil.

where as electricity comes from multiple sources, such as coal, gas, oil, nuclear, wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, biomass and others.

Even if you decide to continue using oil for some of the electrical demand its still better than a combustion engine and refinery model, an you have a whole list of alternatives that can compete, your aren't stuck with one energy source.

For a country that is a net importer of oil, having alternatives is a very good thing


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You can try to persuade our politicians that it isn't a big deal to go 100% EV.




No need, it's going to happen regardless.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> yes for a while at least.
> 
> but 100% of gasoline comes from oil.
> 
> ...




Renewables aren't fit for purpose in many nations and countries.

This is like a religion now.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> People seem to forget that we still need to burn the gas/oil to produce the electricity, to then recharge the batteries
> .




No body forgets that, we just understand that moving from a system that is 100% dependant on one specific fossil fuel source, to another system that is still capable of exploiting that same fossil fuel sources in a much more efficient way, while also being able to use many other renewable energy sources is better.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, eg we don't need to find an answer that is 100% renewable energy from day one to begin the transition away from fossil fuels. 

No one is saying electric cars are carbon neutral, although the may be one day, in the mean time they are much less carbon intensive than petrol cars, even if we used oil, gas and coal power plants, and ignored the growing renewable energy industry.


----------



## basilio (13 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The first thing with the report is, they are quoting land area required for molten salt storage generators, which in 2013 was the holy grail.
> The land requirement for PV panels is near double that of molten salt, then there is the issue of intermittency and storage.
> Since then, they are finding molten salt generators don't produce anywhere near rated capacity, the U.S manufacturers have gone into liquidation.
> So in reality using data from 2013, is a bit shaky, but it is a good article.
> https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...olar-power-companies-have-all-but-disappeared




SP I think your are mistaken. The article I referenced made no mention of molten salt generators.
It was comprehesive. Interesting that molten salt projects are not working out.
https://www.freeingenergy.com/how-much-solar-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s/


----------



## sptrawler (13 July 2020)

basilio said:


> SP I think your are mistaken. The article I referenced made no mention of molten salt generators.
> It was comprehesive. Interesting that molten salt projects are not working out.
> https://www.freeingenergy.com/how-much-solar-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s/



Bas from your article:
_Starting with some conservative assumptions from a 2013 National Renewable Energy Labs (NREL) report, we know that it takes, on average, 3.4 acres of solar panels to generate a gigawatt hour of electricity over a year. Given the U.S. consumes about 4 petawatt hours of electricity per year, we’d need about 13,600,000 acres or 21,250 square miles of solar panels to meet the total electricity requirements of the United States for a year_.

Now from the 2013 National Renewable Energy Labs (NREL) report, from above:
_We found total land-use requirements for solar power plants to have a wide range across technologies. *Generation-weighted averages for total area requirements range from about*_* 3 acres/GWh/yr for CSP towers and CPV installations to 5.5 acres/GWh/yr for small 2-axis flat panel PV power plants.
*
CSP towers are molten salt, from my understanding, which will bring the weighted average down a lot due to their size.
But as I said they are having issues, the one suggested for South Australia has been abandoned.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No body forgets that, we just understand that moving from a system that is 100% dependant on one specific fossil fuel source, to another system that is still capable of exploiting that same fossil fuel sources in a much more efficient way, while also being able to use many other renewable energy sources is better.
> 
> Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, eg we don't need to find an answer that is 100% renewable energy from day one to begin the transition away from fossil fuels.
> 
> No one is saying electric cars are carbon neutral, although the may be one day, in the mean time they are much less carbon intensive than petrol cars, even if we used oil, gas and coal power plants, and ignored the growing renewable energy industry.




But it isn't more efficient if you have to extract the fossil fuels to burn, to generate the electricity, to then transmit the electricity, to then store it at a power station, to then recharge a battery. A battery that had to be produced from mining materials that required fossil fuel based machinery to dig up.

There have been many studies that have shown that EVs aren't less carbon intensive when factoring in the mining of materials and recycling of batteries.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No body forgets that, we just understand that moving from a system that is 100% dependant on one specific fossil fuel source, to another system that is still capable of exploiting that same fossil fuel sources in a much more efficient way, while also being able to use many other renewable energy sources is better.
> 
> Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, eg we don't need to find an answer that is 100% renewable energy from day one to begin the transition away from fossil fuels.
> 
> No one is saying electric cars are carbon neutral, although the may be one day, in the mean time they are much less carbon intensive than petrol cars, even if we used oil, gas and coal power plants, and ignored the growing renewable energy industry.





I can understand if large cities want to move to an era of clean public transport; but just replacing all fossil fuel based cars with EVs is hard to make a case for environmentally, economically and commercially.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No need, it's going to happen regardless.




OK; you keep that thought going, I will believe it when I see it.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The step missing in the calculations is the thermodynamic efficiency of the gasoline fuelled engine versus the efficiency of batteries and an electric motor.
> 
> There's no need for electricity to replace the heat input from gasoline, since heat itself from a car engine is not useful beyond minor amounts, it only needs to produce the same motive power to the wheels.




There was no step missing. I intentionally wanted to get a quick and rough idea, and loose ball park of energy, electricity and costs.

Should I also consider the 47.2 billion gallons of diesel per year, for heavy vehicles, in the USA?


----------



## qldfrog (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I can understand if large cities want to move to an era of clean public transport; but just replacing all fossil fuel based cars with EVs is hard to make a case for environmentally, economically and commercially.



But politically? Who cares about the economy...


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> But politically? Who cares about the economy...




That is why the Greens are stuck at ~10%.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The step missing in the calculations is the thermodynamic efficiency of the gasoline fuelled engine versus the efficiency of batteries and an electric motor.
> 
> There's no need for electricity to replace the heat input from gasoline, since heat itself from a car engine is not useful beyond minor amounts, it only needs to produce the same motive power to the wheels.




FINE; we can just look at this on gallons and miles based on some rough electric vehicle specs: I will just start with: 265 miles to 85 KW/h which is equivalent to 89 miles to the gallon.

USA gallons consumed of gasoline (130.64 billion) and diesel (47.2 billion) = ~178 billion gallons of fuel for vehicles in the USA in 2019.

 So: 89 miles x 178 billion gallons of fuel = 15842000000000 miles travelled on gasoline and diesel

15842000000000 miles travelled on gasoline and diesel / 265 miles on electric vehicle = 59781132080 lots of 85 KW/h

That brings us to 5081396227000 KW/h = *5081396 GW/h per year*

Still reasonably close to my initial figures (~5.5% more), however I included the diesel.


----------



## over9k (13 July 2020)

The way to do it would be to have an interference device in the charging system that makes it only charge your electric car in off-peak hours. That way you'd charge it for the cheapest cost possible and we wouldn't need to upgrade the existing power grid at all. Literally just plug & play.

But electric cars are still prohibitively expensive to buy and the range is severely limited. This will change. It all boils down to battery tech really. 

I'd just cover half the planet in nuclear power plants and robert's your mother's brother.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

over9k said:


> The way to do it would be to have an interference device in the charging system that makes it only charge your electric car in off-peak hours. That way you'd charge it for the cheapest cost possible and we wouldn't need to upgrade the existing power grid at all. Literally just plug & play.
> 
> But electric cars are still prohibitively expensive to buy and the range is severely limited. This will change. It all boils down to battery tech really.




Still need at least ~1081 x ~580MW nuclear powerplants looking at these recent numbers: 5081396 GW/h per year to completely phase out 100% internal combustion engine vehicles in the USA.

Anyway; I have spent enough time on this, to find myself pretty close to where I was when I started.


----------



## over9k (13 July 2020)

A decent nuclear plant can pump out gigawatts at a time so it could certainly be done if nuclear was used. 

This obviously has decades to transition so a few hundred could definitely be built over the next 20-30 years.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

over9k said:


> A decent nuclear plant can pump out gigawatts at a time so it could certainly be done if nuclear was used.
> 
> This obviously has decades to transition so a few hundred could definitely be built over the next 20-30 years.




Or we can just meltdown our grids.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Still need at least ~1081 x ~580MW nuclear powerplants looking at these recent numbers: 5081396 GW/h per year to completely phase out 100% internal combustion engine vehicles in the USA.
> 
> Anyway; I have spent enough time on this, to find myself pretty close to where I was when I started.




I have deliberately ignored the electricity lost (up to ~30%) when charging the batteries and/or when they are sitting around not being used; however these inconvenient facts don't matter to many.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Renewables aren't fit for purpose in many nations and countries.
> 
> This is like a religion now.




so those countries can use fossil fuels, the other 99% can use renewables.

again, never let perfect be the enemy of good, just because a solution isn’t perfect right now in every possible situation doesn’t mean it’s not good.

out of interest which countries are you saying aren’t fit for renewables?


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> But it isn't more efficient if you have to extract the fossil fuels to burn, to generate the electricity, to then transmit the electricity, to then store it at a power station, to then recharge a battery. A battery that had to be produced from mining materials that required fossil fuel based machinery to dig up.
> 
> There have been many studies that have shown that EVs aren't less carbon intensive when factoring in the mining of materials and recycling of batteries.




burning those fossil fuels in efficient power plants and charging batteries is far more efficient that refining them, then burning them in inefficient motors in cars.

do a little bit of research into how much more Efficient Ev’s are that combustion engines, as I have already said petrol cars use 5 times the amount of energy well to wheels than an ev.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I can understand if large cities want to move to an era of clean public transport; but just replacing all fossil fuel based cars with EVs is hard to make a case for environmentally, economically and commercially.




it’s only hard to make a case for it if you ignore the facts, which you have been doing a good job at so far.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> USA gallons consumed of gasoline (130.64 billion) and diesel (47.2 billion) = ~178 billion gallons of fuel for vehicles in the USA in 2019.
> 
> So: 89 miles x 178 billion gallons of fuel = 15842000000000 miles travelled on gasoline and diesel




Do you honestly believe that the average car or light commercial vehicle in the US gets 89 miles per gallon using gasoline or diesel?

In truth you'll find the average is around quarter of that for cars and it's even worse for light trucks. There's the point you are missing - EV's get the equivalent of 89 mpg but gasoline sure doesn't, the engine just isn't anywhere close to being efficient enough to achieve that.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> so those countries can use fossil fuels, the other 99% can use renewables.
> 
> again, never let perfect be the enemy of good, just because a solution isn’t perfect right now in every possible situation doesn’t mean it’s not good.
> 
> out of interest which countries are you saying aren’t fit for renewables?




Countries that have low solar intensity, insufficient high wind regions, inadequate geothermal, and/or little options for hydro.

Then there is the issue with countries that have a large geographical landmass ,which have their high density populations far away from the renewable energy sources.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Do you honestly believe that the average car or light commercial vehicle in the US gets 89 miles per gallon using gasoline or diesel?
> 
> In truth you'll find the average is around quarter of that for cars and it's even worse for light trucks. There's the point you are missing - EV's get the equivalent of 89 mpg but gasoline sure doesn't, the engine just isn't anywhere close to being efficient enough to achieve that.




Would you like me to start breaking down all the vehicle categories in the USA now, both electric and ICE? Get their specs and input them into the calculation.

Also I should be adding up to an additional ~30% of electrical capacity to compensate for the electricity loss in transmission, battery charge, and vampire drain.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

]


Smurf1976 said:


> Do you honestly believe that the average car or light commercial vehicle in the US gets 89 miles per gallon using gasoline or diesel?
> 
> In truth you'll find the average is around quarter of that for cars and it's even worse for light trucks. There's the point you are missing - EV's get the equivalent of 89 mpg but gasoline sure doesn't, the engine just isn't anywhere close to being efficient enough to achieve that.




I don’t think he really understands a lot of the details.

but hey he has his mind Made up, Hahaha.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 July 2020)

Crunching some numbers for the Australian states based on ABS data for vehicle distance travelled in each state.

I'm taking EV electricity use as 0.2 kWh per km for cars which seems to be reasonably accepted.

For light commercial vehicles there's no single figure, and the configuration of such vehicles does vary considerably, but for simplicity I've doubled it to 0.4 kWh per km or 40 kWh per 100 km. If anything that's probably an overestimate but it'll be somewhere in the ballpark in the absence of precise data.

Following is for passenger cars and light commercial vehicles as defined by the ABS. That is, all powered road vehicles other than motorcycles, heavy trucks and buses.

Distances are total for all vehicles in that state and likewise calculated electricity required for a 100% EV fleet is for all vehicles in the state. State as defined by it's official boundaries as such.

NSW:
Passenger = 54,007 million km = 10,801 GWh
Commercial = 14,142 million km = 5,657 GWh
Total electricity required = 16,458 GWh
Electricity consumption increase = 22.7%

Victoria:
Passenger = 49,445 million km = 9,891 GWh
Commercial = 12,828 million km = 5,131 GWh
Total electricity required = 15,022 GWh
Electricity consumption increase = 32.3%

Queensland:
Passenger = 36,641 million km = 7,328 GWh
Commercial = 13,134 million km = 5,254 GWh
Total electricity required = 12,582 GWh
Electricity consumption increase = 21.4%

SA:
Passenger = 13,071 million km = 2,614 GWh
Commercial = 3,318 million km = 1,327 GWh
Total electricity required = 3,941 GWh
Electricity consumption increase = 28.6%

WA:
Passenger = 18,219 million km = 3,644 GWh
Commercial = 6,380 million km = 2,552 GWh
Total electricity required = 6,196 GWh
Electricity consumption increase = 14.5%

Tasmania:
Passenger = 4,004 million km = 801 GWh
Commercial = 1,282 million km = 513 GWh
Total electricity required = 1,314 GWh
Electricity consumption increase = 12.2%

NT:
Passenger = 1,212 million km = 242 GWh
Commercial = 706 million km = 282 GWh
Total electricity required = 524 GWh
Electricity consumption increase = 11.7%

So the required increase in electricity supply ranges from about 12% in the NT and Tasmania through to 32% in Victoria.

The difference in change between states is heavily related to current per capita electricity consumption noting that Tasmania is extremely high by global standards, it has one of the most electrified economies anywhere as well as the dominance of a number of 24/7 manufacturing loads, whereas Victoria is at the other extreme with an extremely high reliance on gas for heating purposes and a comparatively small electricity industry (per capita) as a result.

Realistically though, it doesn't seem overly difficult to achieve given there'd be 30+ years in which to do it.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> ]
> 
> 
> I don’t think he really understands a lot of the details.
> ...




I think I have a better understanding about power generation than you.

I think that you deliberately ignore the details you don't won't to accept.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Countries that have low solar intensity, insufficient high wind regions, inadequate geothermal, and/or little options for hydro.




such as?

what percentage of the global population live in these countries


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Crunching some numbers for the Australian states based on ABS data for vehicle distance travelled in each state.
> 
> I'm taking EV electricity use as 0.2 kWh per km for cars which seems to be reasonably accepted.
> 
> ...





You can't honestly believe that all EVs have the same specifications?


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Would you like me to start breaking down all the vehicle categories in the USA now, both electric and ICE? Get their specs and input them into the calculation.



There's no need to go that far once you realise it's hard to find even one passenger car or light commercial vehicle which achieves 89 mpg or higher.

If practically every car available is far below that, it's plain commonsense that the average won't be anywhere close to 89 mpg indeed in truth it's closer to 25.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You can't honestly believe that all EVs have the same specifications?




Nobody would expect them to.

It is however fairly unlikely that someone's going to build one with an order of magnitude worse performance than those being made at present.

Just like not all computers have the same specifications but it's reasonable to assume that nobody's going to reinvent the Commodore 64 in 2020. Any new desktop or laptop computer will be able to run Win10 or an equivalent, that's a reasonable assumption, and it's a reasonable assumption that EV's won't be drastically worse than one you can buy today.

Even if I'm out by 50%, that's still a lot closer than expecting 89 mpg and the average car or other light vehicle traveling 60,000 Miles each year, that's 100,000km in round figures, as you've based your figures on. That's an awful lot of driving and apart from a few business users there aren't too many who drive close to 400 km each and every day 5 days a week. That certainly isn't anywhere close to normal for most vehicles.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I think that you deliberately ignore the details you don't won't to accept.




Mate, I own a Tesla and 99% of its charge comes directly from the solar panels on my roof, so I am quite aware of the details, and can see through the gaping holes in your arguments.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's no need to go that far once you realise it's hard to find even one passenger car or light commercial vehicle which achieves 89 mpg or higher.
> 
> If practically every car available is far below that, it's plain commonsense that the average won't be anywhere close to 89 mpg indeed in truth it's closer to 25.




OK; so lets use your 25.

What percentage of additional electrical capacity are we going to put on top of our final figure for transmission loss, battery charge loss and vampire drain. What's a fair percentage?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Mate, I own a Tesla and 99% of its charge comes directly from the solar panels on my roof, so I am quite aware of the details, and can see through the gaping holes in your arguments.




Good for you, we are talking about a whole nation, not just you.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Good for you, we are talking about a whole nation, not just you.




Ok, you do you mate. 

but if this is something you are interested in you need to learn a few more facts about what you are talking about, because at the moment you are way off.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Ok, you do you mate.
> 
> but if this is something you are interested in you need to learn a few more facts about what you are talking about, because at the moment you are way off.




Not way off yet. Let's get Smurf happy with the metrics that we will input into the calculation first. Then let's talk about the energy requirements.

Awaiting a reply from Smurf now.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> OK; so lets use your 25.
> 
> What percentage of additional electrical capacity are we going to put on top of our final figure for transmission loss, battery charge loss and vampire drain. What's a fair percentage?




Do you not think petrol/gasoline has transmission loss???

It is transported around the globe on ships burning diesel to refineries, then from other ships and trucks burning diesel to distribution hubs, then on trucks again to petrol stations, and eventually pumped into a car.

Then finally used in a really inefficient way once it makes it to the cars engine.

but again I don’t think you actually want to understand that.

and exactly how much transmission loss do you think happens from the 12 meters my electricity has to travel from my roof to my car charger in my garage?

sure not 100% of electric cars are charged by onsite solar, but a lot can be.

While 0% of petrol cars are fueled by onsite oil wells.

the worst case for EV’s is about equal to petrol, however the best case for EV’s completely smashes petrol.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Not way off yet. Let's get Smurf happy with the metrics that we will input into the calculation first. Then let's talk about the energy requirements.
> 
> Awaiting a reply from Smurf now.




I will save you the wait.

smurf is correct and you are wrong.

have a good life buddy, but improve your research skillls.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Do you not think petrol/gasoline has transmission loss???
> 
> It is transported around the globe on ships burning diesel to refineries, then from other ships and trucks burning diesel to distribution hubs, then on trucks again to petrol stations, and eventually pumped into a car.
> 
> ...




I am talking about running transmission networks from solar farms in deserts to cities.

OK; we can leave the transmission loss out.

That leaves us with the electricity loss in charging the battery and a fair metric to input for vampire drain.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I will save you the wait.
> 
> smurf is correct and you are wrong.
> 
> have a good life buddy, but improve your research skillls.




This isn't over; how can Smurf be wrong when she hasn't put a nameplate figure on the capacity that will be required?

How can I be wrong when we haven't finished yet?


----------



## qldfrog (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> OK; so lets use your 25.
> 
> What percentage of additional electrical capacity are we going to put on top of our final figure for transmission loss, battery charge loss and vampire drain. What's a fair percentage?



https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...EU,consistently for charging than discharging.
So we need to add a minimum of 20% increase to Mr @Smurf1976  figures for the charge decharge effect of ev batteries.
We should also add a few% extra losses as the charging of ev on the domestic network will not be as optimised as for the usual industrial consumers.will the network be ready?
So let's take Smurf figures that i assume correct and add 25% to include battery losses and extra transmission losses


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217303730#:~:text=The losses in the PEU,consistently for charging than discharging.
> So we need to add a minimum of 20% increase to Mr @Smurf1976  figures for the charge decharge effect of ev batteries.
> We should also add a few% extra losses as the charging of ev on the domestic network will not be as optimised as for the usual industrial consumers.will the network be ready?
> So let's take Smurf figures that i assume correct and add 25% to include battery losses and extra transmission losses




OK, so we add additional 25% for additional capacity.

So that leaves us with what is a fair metric for average: miles per KW/h for electric vehicles?


----------



## qldfrog (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> OK, so we add additional 25% for additional capacity.
> 
> So that leaves us with what is a fair metric for average miles per KW/h for electric vehicles?



Around 25kwh/100 for cars (tesla like)


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Around 25kwh/100 for cars (tesla like)




OK; I will put it all into the spreadsheet now and post soon.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Around 25kwh/100 for cars (tesla like)




OK, so here we are:



Now lets look at energy capacity for the required 1389375 GW/h per year

Are we happy with nuclear. Or do we want a combination/ an energy mix?

Then we will look at the costing for the energy mix.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> OK, so here we are:
> View attachment 105926
> 
> 
> ...




Should I put into the calculation Tesla Heavy vehicle truck 2kw/h per mile and ICE Heavy truck 6.5 miles per gallon? Is that fair?


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I am talking about running transmission networks from solar farms in deserts to cities.




you mean as opposed to transporting oil from deserts on the other side of the planet???

as I said your worst case electric scenario is still only equal or better to normal operation of Oil fields.

———-

Battery charging losses are already factored into the figure when we say EV’s run at 85% efficient.

vampire drain is pretty insignificant, especially when weighed against losses routinely faced by petrol cars, eg idleing engines at lights or just to run the aircon while you wait for your wife etc.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> you mean as opposed to transporting oil from deserts on the other side of the planet???
> 
> as I said your worst case electric scenario is still only equal or better to normal operation of Oil fields.
> 
> ...




Hang on; I am happy to work with your's, Smurf's and Frog's assumptions here.

You tell me what inputs and then we get the figure, then we decide on the energy mix, then we can do the costings.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Hang on; I am happy to work with your's, Smurf's and Frog's assumptions here.
> 
> You tell me what inputs and then we get the figure, then we decide on the energy mix, then we can do the costings.




these sorts of calculation have already been done, and EV’s come out on top.

do a bit of digging on google and you will mind a lot better data than you will get on your envelope system.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> these sorts of calculation have already been done, and EV’s come out on top.
> 
> do a bit of digging on google and you will mind a lot better data than you will get on your envelope system.




I have already found that it will cost $1.4 trillion for the USA and I posted it on here.

So now you want to stop people from doing their own basic research and discussing on here. Nice person you are.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I have already found that it will $1.4 trillion for the USA and I posted it on here.




check out this video, and look through the sources linked in the description, it will fill some of your gaps in knowledge.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (13 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> check out this video, and look through the sources linked in the description, it will fill some of your gaps in knowledge.





I am not interested in your videos. I am interested in building a metric that we can agree on, but perhaps to disagree on later.

You are only interested in telling people to be quiet and to just believe. Like believing in a new religion or cult.


----------



## Value Collector (13 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I am not interested in your videos. I am interested in building a metric that we can agree on, but perhaps to disagree on later.
> 
> You are only interested in telling people to be quiet and to just believe. Like believing in a religion.




If you check out the sources in the description you will find the calculations have already been done to a much higher scientific standard than you are probably capable of.

And as I said earlier it’s irrelevant anyway, because uptake will be gradual, and any extra capacity needed will be added over time on a user pay basis.

And existing generation assets will become more profitable by not having so much idle time during off peak times, making new investments really attractive.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> If you check out the sources in the description you will find the calculations have already been done to a much higher scientific standard than you are probably capable of.
> 
> And as I said earlier it’s irrelevant anyway, because uptake will be gradual, and any extra capacity needed will be added over time on a user pay basis.
> 
> And existing generation assets will become more profitable by not having so much idle time during off peak times.




1. Who knows what technology we will have in the decades to come. EVs may become obsolete in a decade or two.

2. If you are the sort of person that doesn't embrace personal learning and growth, then I feel sorry for you.

3. If you would like to present me with a scientific paper from a university that has been published and peer-reviewed; then I am happy to read it.

4. I always said from the start that my initial figures were very rough. It was a quick calculation that took me less than 10 mins; to get just an idea of the scale of energy, electricity and costs that are involved. That was it. Like are talking GW, TW; are we talking billions or trillions. *We are talking TWs of electricty and trillions of dollars here; that is very clear!*

5. I said that I am happy to work with you guys, initially reluctant, to perhaps agree on some figures. That is obviously out of the question with you.

6. Now what would you like to talk about on this thread? Because you clearly won't accept people doing their own research and people independently looking at this EV theme critically.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> 1. Who knows what technology we will have in the decades to come. EVs may become obsolete in a decade or two.
> 
> 2. If you are the sort of person that doesn't embrace personal learning and growth, then I feel sorry for you.
> 
> ...




1, if in 20 years there is better tech we would just gradual move to that one, just like we will gradually move to ev’s because they are better tech today.

2, you obviously don’t know me, I am a 38 year old self funded multi millionaire retired guy because embracing self learning and figuring out facts is exactly what I do best.

3, to be honest, I think you are a lost cause, you can lead a horse to water but I can’t make you think.

4, it’s not that your figures are rough, it’s that you don’t understand some of the foundational differences between the two systems.

5, I don’t have to work with you, because they science is done, there is no point. And the few facts I have tried to explain you Have struggled to understand.

6, you haven’t been doing research, you refused to watch a video I linked or to look at the supporting sources listed in the discription.

to be honest you aren’t very interesting to engaged with because you aren’t interested in learning, speaking to you is like speaking to a climate change denier that doesn’t want to understand anything.

so I am out of this convo for now.


----------



## basilio (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> 1, if in 20 years there is better tech we would just gradual move to that one, just like we will gradually move to ev’s because they are better tech today.
> 
> 2, you obviously don’t know me, I am a 38 year old self funded multi millionaire retired guy because embracing self learning and figuring out facts is exactly what I do best.
> 
> ...




4, it’s not that your figures are rough, it’s that you don’t understand some of the foundational differences between the two systems.

And when these are pointed out you just refuse to accept them

Sums it all up.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2020)

I thought the banter was great, it evoked some interesting concepts, which in reality is what a thread like this should do. 
Who is right or wrong doesn't really matter IMO, as the push toward electric vehicles will continue as will the continued change to 'clean' energy production.
As is usually the way, the actual end result, may well be something we haven't even thought of.


----------



## basilio (14 July 2020)

"Banter" is interesting. I take it to mean flying thought kites and a bit of BS. And if one wants to discard all current realities why not ?

Chronos was attempting to prove mathematically that powering all cars with electricity in the US  could only be achieved with 1000 plus nuclear reactors. It became very clear through the "banter" that he was unaware or ignoring many basic factors that made his calculations wildly wrong.

And unfortunately he never seemed to acknowledge these. I mean why would anyone believe and use a figure of  89MPG as the average mileage for US cars ?  It really undermines any credibility IMV.
________________
Your comments on my post  about how much land is required to produce all the US were interesting. It certainly wasn't mentioned in the body of the story but, as you pointed out, in the reference. 

Since then PV panels have become even more efficient and cheaper and wind power has accelerated as a cost effective 24 hour a day energy source. An PV on houses and commercial buildings going directly into the grid will have had a more dramatic effect.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

basilio said:


> 4, it’s not that your figures are rough, it’s that you don’t understand some of the foundational differences between the two systems.
> 
> And when these are pointed out you just refuse to accept them
> 
> Sums it all up.




I haven't refused anything here , in fact I have now made an effort to reach a compromise with the figures.

Basilio; you would be best to keep out of this. Go back onto to your fairy tale threads that are laced with emotive and delusional nonsense.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

basilio said:


> "Banter" is interesting. I take it to mean flying thought kites and a bit of BS. And if one wants to discard all current realities why not ?
> 
> Chronos was attempting to prove mathematically that powering all cars with electricity in the US  could only be achieved with 1000 plus nuclear reactors. It became very clear through the "banter" that he was unaware or ignoring many basic factors that made his calculations wildly wrong.
> 
> ...




We haven't finished yet. I never said that it can only be achieved with nuclear.

Now you are deliberately trying to make stuff up.

Basilio; go to your other threads, rather than being an irritant who is attempting to shutdown this discourse.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> 1, if in 20 years there is better tech we would just gradual move to that one, just like we will gradually move to ev’s because they are better tech today.
> 
> 2, you obviously don’t know me, I am a 38 year old self funded multi millionaire retired guy because embracing self learning and figuring out facts is exactly what I do best.
> 
> ...




I am not interested in what your net wealth is. That means little to this discussion. Figuring out facts is clearly what you aren't good at.

I told you from the start that they were quick calculations, that only took minutes, with no research other than gasoline consumed, just to get a rough idea. Fact is that we are still looking at TWs of electricity and trillions of dollars.

More challenged the quick calculation, so I agreed to get a more precise metric. We had begun to work through the detail, and you derailed it because you can't handle that you are wrong in your belief that everything is going to be cheap and easy.

*Did you know that Sydney University have estimated that it will cost hundreds of billions of dollars to go 100% EV with renewables in Australia!
*
You don't seek facts and information, you seek religion. You don't understand the systems and processes, you are indoctrinated, just vomiting out what you have been told; just like Basilio on here.

Yes; please take your net wealth, your ego, your insidious and disingenuous character; and keep to yourself: rather than trying to take cheap shots at others on here.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> If you check out the sources in the description you will find the calculations have already been done to a much higher scientific standard than you are probably capable of.
> 
> And as I said earlier it’s irrelevant anyway, because uptake will be gradual, and any extra capacity needed will be added over time on a user pay basis.
> 
> And existing generation assets will become more profitable by not having so much idle time during off peak times, making new investments really attractive.





You wouldn't be able to read and understand a scientific publication in an energy journal; yet you have the audacity to troll me on scientific standards. Then you tell me that the scientific standards/metrics are irrelevant, because you know better than the scientists. You are a cooked goose mate.

As I said; Sydney University have already published that it will cost 100s of billions of dollars in Australia to go 100% EV with renewables.

So there is already 1 university that agrees with me that this will cost 100s of billions of dollars in Australia.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

EV's don't have to use renewables though. If electricity is cheaper than burning fuel, that's enough. 

Why are we acting as if EV's and renewables are mutual inclusives?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I thought the banter was great, it evoked some interesting concepts, which in reality is what a thread like this should do.
> Who is right or wrong doesn't really matter IMO, as the push toward electric vehicles will continue as will the continued change to 'clean' energy production.
> As is usually the way, the actual end result, may well be something we haven't even thought of.




Value collector is emotionally compromised in his investments


over9k said:


> EV's don't have to use renewables though. If electricity is cheaper than burning fuel, that's enough.
> 
> Why are we acting as if EV's and renewables are mutual inclusives?




But we still have to burn the fuel to create the electricity; then we have to build the recharge stations.

We were just starting to work on the figures here before the emotional and disconnected people like Basilio and Value Collector demanded that we stop all discussion. Because they were scared that we would reach a conclusion that they wouldn't like.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

It's much much more efficient to burn fuel in a power station than it is to burn it in an internal combustion engine I know that. Something like 4x as much iirc. 

I have no idea what's necessary to build the charge stations but I have a friend that's an electrical engineer for one of the power companies so I could ask him if you like? 

Charging stations also obviously depends on battery tech - the better batteries get, the less the stations will be needed.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> It's much much more efficient to burn fuel in a power station than it is to burn it in an internal combustion engine I know that. Something like 4x as much iirc.
> 
> I have no idea what's necessary to build the charge stations but I have a friend that's an electrical engineer for one of the power companies so I could ask him if you like?
> 
> Charging stations also obviously depends on battery tech - the better batteries get, the less the stations will be needed.




Sure; ask your mate when you get time: of what he thinks the electrical capacity requirements will be for the USA to go 100% EV. I think he will likely say that we are talking TWs of electricity and trillions of dollars also. Also that we are talking hundreds of nuclear powerplants, if we go nuclear.

I agree that it is more efficient to burn in a power station; however we still need build greater capacity into our transmission networks. We lose around ~5% per 1000Km in transmission. Then if we go renewable, we would need to build large scale battery storage, more electricity lost there to charge and recharge the large scale batteries. Then we need to build the recharge stations; not very productive for the economy when people have to wait 30 mins to recharge their car; how long will the line be at the recharge stations?

I think hydrogen vehicles will definitely challenge EVs this decade. Petrol stations can be converted, LNG ships and oil tankers might be able to be converted, no need for transmission lines for 1000s of Kms.

I think it is a smoother transition to go from a crude oil economy to a hydrogen economy; rather than a crude oil transport economy to a full electric transport economy.


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I think it is a smoother transition to go from a crude oil economy to a hydrogen economy; rather than an crude oil transport economy to a full electric transport economy.



This is what I was thinking. I'm not seeing a rush into ev infrastructure. Hydrogen presents its own problems. I'm not against EV if they get a decent ute out I'd probably buy it. But I'm not sold on it becoming mainstream any time soon.

The figures are interesting to peel back.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> EV's don't have to use renewables though. If electricity is cheaper than burning fuel, that's enough.
> 
> Why are we acting as if EV's and renewables are mutual inclusives?




because he has an idea in his head that unless an alternative is 100% free of fossil fuels then there is no point using it, even if that alternative makes far better use of our fossil fuels resources while simultaneously allowing us to incrementally add more renewables over time.


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## over9k (14 July 2020)

If battery tech can get good enough to hold about 12 hours of charge then everything is sweet from there on out - it's a full day's driving and you then just charge the thing overnight wherever you are stopped.

Electric cars are already good enough to do this as the work, kids sport, visit grandparents etc etc commuter.

It's battery life that matters - just charge the thing with a bloody wall socket overnight if the batteries can carry enough juice. Or even dual circuits if you run something from another circuit.

This can't possibly be difficult to do as long as the batteries are good enough.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> This is what I was thinking. I'm not seeing a rush into ev infrastructure. Hydrogen presents its own problems. I'm not against EV if they get a decent ute out I'd probably buy it. But I'm not sold on it becoming mainstream any time soon.
> 
> The figures are interesting to peel back.




Sure; hydrogen has its own problems also; however I think the problems are more easily resolved in juxtaposition to electric vehicles.

I am not against EVs either, I just don't see nations building also the required infrastructure this century to assist with the 100% EV transition.

What happens if we have a serious grid meltdown? What if we have a serious cyber attack that shuts down our electrical grid for days. We will have people stuck in the middle of roads across the country.

Let's have a bit of think before running off to Alice In Wonderland with some other posters on here.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> because he has an idea in his head that unless an alternative is 100% free of fossil fuels then there is no point using it, even if that alternative makes far better use of our fossil fuels resources while simultaneously allowing us to incrementally add more renewables over time.




You still aren't getting it, you have no idea what's involved and you don't understand the systems and processes. We will need to build more gas and coal power stations and run transmission networks across the country.

People buy a Tesla, and they think they know better than everyone.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Not being funny here:

Let's say there's a vehicle with batteries that take 20 hours of running to discharge. Couldn't we just plug it into a 240v wall socket to charge it?

Worse case, run two connections from two different circuits?

Even worse case, get 3 phase power installed (which is pretty cheap to get done really) and charge with that?

Any hotel or whatever you're staying at will already have a baller electricity connection anyway so it's not like they couldn't just put charging stations in the carpark with relative ease. In fact, I think some already do?


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You wouldn't be able to read and understand a scientific publication in an energy journal; yet you have the audacity to troll me on scientific standards. Then you tell me that the scientific standards/metrics are irrelevant, because you know better than the scientists. You are a cooked goose mate.
> 
> As I said; Sydney University have already published that it will cost 100s of billions of dollars in Australia to go 100% EV with renewables.
> 
> So there is already 1 university that agrees with me that this will cost 100s of billions of dollars in Australia.




this is simply a case where you don’t know what you don’t know, and you haven’t shown interest in understanding the details.

you also seem to think that requiring investment in new infrastructure would be bad, when in reality it’s a user pays system, and consumers would be saving money while at the same time owners of electrical generation would be making better returns on existing investment due to higher utilization rates, and have some good options to make more investments.

———-
But as I said I have made a profitable  career understanding the finer details of situations, and this topic I understand very well, where as you clearly don’t.

Your opinion is based on a few big misconceptions, I tried to talk you through it, but you aren’t interested so you will just have to wait and see.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You still aren't getting it, you have no idea what's involved and you don't understand the systems and processes. We will need to build more gas and coal power stations and run transmission networks across the country.
> 
> People buy a Tesla, and they think they know better than everyone.




Mate, I have been investing in the electricity, Gas and oil industries for 20 years, I have a pretty firm grasp on it.

I also have been studying the progress of the electric car industry for over 10 years before I bought my Tesla.

it’s something I have been interested in for years, and spent countless hours researching and learning for both personal and investment reasons.

but yeah, just go ahead and assume I don’t know what I am talking about just because I pointed out your assumptions were wrong, I guess that’s easier than trying to understand the details .haha


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2020)

basilio said:


> "Banter" is interesting. I take it to mean flying thought kites and a bit of BS. And if one wants to discard all current realities why not ?
> 
> Chronos was attempting to prove mathematically that powering all cars with electricity in the US  could only be achieved with 1000 plus nuclear reactors. It became very clear through the "banter" that he was unaware or ignoring many basic factors that made his calculations wildly wrong.
> 
> And unfortunately he never seemed to acknowledge these. I mean why would anyone believe and use a figure of  89MPG as the average mileage for US cars ?  It really undermines any credibility IMV.



What he actually showed was the amount of energy that is still going to be required, when electric vehicles are mainstream, which even by VC's comments is at least what is currently required, therefore the problem is still more immense than some seem to be able to get their head around.
So that banter actually showed something, two intelligent individuals debating an issue IMO.
It is a far better debate, than two poorly informed individuals, giving media garbage as the basis for informed comment..
________________


basilio said:


> Your comments on my post  about how much land is required to produce all the US were interesting. It certainly wasn't mentioned in the body of the story but, as you pointed out, in the reference.



Well considering it was the driving argument of the post, one would have thought you would have read it, as it was you who posted it.



basilio said:


> Since then PV panels have become even more efficient and cheaper and wind power has accelerated as a cost effective 24 hour a day energy source. An PV on houses and commercial buildings going directly into the grid will have had a more dramatic effect.



This actually supports my last statement, about lack of understanding of the size of the issue.
In your previous post you seemed to have forgotten molten salt storage, which as I said was the flag bearer for renewables, yet now people are saying look at the advancements in PV panels and wind.
Shows we aren't moving anywhere near fast enough in producing devices with large scale grunt.
Anyway we have been through this in the future of power generation thread, so pointless going over well trodden ground.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 July 2020)

Conversion to 100% EV's will happen over a long period of time, maybe 100 years, and maybe other technologies will come in over that time, so I think it's a bit pointless to calculate electricity requirements based on current technology because it's unlikely that that technology will be the only one used when fossil fuels finally run out. We may even have cracked the fusion issue by that time, so that throws everything on its head.

Otherwise, apart from the personality clashes, this is an interesting thread. Keep up the good work lads !


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## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> this is simply a case where you don’t know what you don’t know, and you haven’t shown interest in understanding the details.
> 
> you also seem to think that requiring investment in new infrastructure would be bad, when in reality it’s a user pays system, and consumers would be saving money while at the same time owners of electrical generation would be making better returns on existing investment due to higher utilization rates, and have some good options to make more investments.
> 
> ...




1. Well you can think what you like; it means nothing to my life.

2. You haven't tried to talk anyone through anything. You have deliberately tried to derail this thread, trying tell everyone that because you have a couple of million that makes you know more. Sorry, no it doesn't.

3. You don't understand this topic well, you only think that you do. You have no idea of capital expenditure, stranded assets, electrical capacity requirements, and so on. You only know what your Tesla brochure has told you.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Let's take the edge off here for a moment:

Can someone tell me why my whole "plug it into the charging stations in the hotel carpark" scenario won't come to pass? The hotel already has a beefy power connection, so just flick them a few extra bucks, plug it in, and have a fully charged car in the morning? 

Same goes for just plugging it into the wall of your house's garage, worst case getting 3 phase electricity installed? Battery tech is already good enough for a commuting, runabout etc car? 

I just don't see how much really needs to be done at all if we can get battery tech to the point of being able to do a day trip in one charge.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Mate, I have been investing in the electricity, Gas and oil industries for 20 years, I have a pretty firm grasp on it.
> 
> I also have been studying the progress of the electric car industry for over 10 years before I bought my Tesla.
> 
> ...




If you have been investing for 20 years, and you still have issues grasping basics like capital expenditure, stranded assets, electrical capacity; then it is akin to winning the lotto.

My final assumptions aren't wrong. We are talking about TWs of electricity and trillions of dollars in the USA to transition to 100% EV.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Let's take the edge off here for a moment:
> 
> Can someone tell me why my whole "plug it into the charging stations in the hotel carpark" scenario won't come to pass? The hotel already has a beefy power connection, so just flick them a few extra bucks, plug it in, and have a fully charged car in the morning?
> 
> ...




Perhaps Value Collector can help you; he has been investing for 20 years.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Not being funny here:
> 
> Couldn't we just plug it into a 240v wall socket to charge it?




Yep, Off course. But the nay sayers want you to think that we will need billions of new chargers installed (mean while building and replacing tanks And pumps at petrol stations etc over the last 10 years probably cost billions Anyway)

My car is literally charging from the 240 Volt outlet in my garage right now, and the power is coming from the sunlight hitting my solar panels.

this is literally the dream people have had for years, but again the nay sayers will try and confuse the issue and talk about coal power etc


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> If you have been investing for 20 years, and you still have issues grasping basics like capital expenditure, stranded assets, electrical capacity;




I don’t grasp those basics perfectly.

there is no issue with “stranded assets” if the change is going to take 20 years or more, and Those assets still can produce other things.

It’s the same with capital expenditure, off peak charging etc will create higher utilization rates making existing assets more profitable, and there is plenty of capital out there looking for a home earning 10%, and steady demand from charging a vehicle fleet can supply the steady longterm earnings to under write new investments.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2020)

Interesting article on BEV batteries:
https://www.drive.com.au/news/which...-battery-warranty--123904.html?trackLink=SMH3


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## over9k (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> My car is literally charging from the 240 Volt outlet in my garage right now, and the power is coming from the sunlight hitting my solar panels.
> 
> this is literally the dream people have had for years.
> 
> ...



That's really cool. Looks like standard 10 amp 240v power too? Or are you up to 15 amp?

What's the ratio of time charging:time running? It obviously takes a lot more than 2.4kw (or 3.6kw if you have 15 amp) to move a car.

Also, do they have a 3 phase charging option?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t grasp those basics perfectly.
> 
> there is no issue with “stranded assets” if the change is going to take 20 years or more, and Those assets still can produce other things.
> 
> It’s the same with capital expenditure, off peak charging etc will create higher utilization rates making existing assets more profitable, and there is plenty of capital out there looking for a home earning 10%, and steady demand from charging a vehicle fleet can supply the steady longterm earnings to under write new investments.




I support roof-top solar where it is fit for purpose. You obviously don't live in Tasmania.

How often do you drive; do you drive 100s of kms a day?


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## over9k (14 July 2020)

Renewables have nothing to do with electric vehicles. Doubly so if you're charging overnight like most people would be. 

We need to move past that bit.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Renewables have nothing to do with electric vehicles. Doubly so if you're charging overnight like most people would be.
> 
> We need to move past that bit.




Don't forget to plug in before you go to bed . You might be late to work, or the kids might be waiting an hour or two to get dropped off or picked up from school.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> It's much much more efficient to burn fuel in a power station than it is to burn it in an internal combustion engine I know that. Something like 4x as much iirc.



The efficiency varies greatly between internal combustion engines, also the drive train on a vehicle has a major bearing on the actual efficiency at the wheels. e.g diesel, diesel turbo charged, petrol low compression, petrol high compression, two wheel drive four wheel drive.

In the same argument the efficiency of power stations vary hugely, depending on the type of installation and equipment being used. e.g diesel, steam, steam with reheat, open cycle gas turbine, open cycle high efficiency gas turbine, combined cycle gas turbine, hydro.

A turbo charged diesel engine, as a stand alone prime mover have an efficiency of mid 50%, petrol high 30%.
Where as older style open cycle gas turbines can be low20%, high efficiency gas turbines can be mid 40% and combined cycle mid 50%.
So I guess it all depends what you are comparing, with a car it is the weight it has to move, the wind drag and transmission losses that hurts.
Where a power station wins is it is sitting in one spot and running at optimum speed.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Don't forget to plug in before you go to bed . You might be late to work, or the kids might be waiting an hour or two to get dropped off or picked up from school.



Why do you think I asked about the charge:running time ratio? And about 15 amp and 3 phase charging? 

I've been looking for an excuse to install 3 phase power for ages. My shed just can't justify it. Installing 15 amp power is far far simpler though. 

I wouldn't bat an eyelid at installing 15 amp or even 3 phase power if it was a game changer reference charging an electric car for regular use, and it's only a few g's if you want it too.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The efficiency varies greatly between internal combustion engines, also the drive train on a vehicle has a major bearing on the actual efficiency at the wheels. e.g diesel, diesel turbo charged, petrol low compression, petrol high compression, two wheel drive four wheel drive.
> 
> In the same argument the efficiency of power stations vary hugely, depending on the type of installation and equipment being used. e.g diesel, steam, steam with reheat, open cycle gas turbine, open cycle high efficiency gas turbine, combined cycle gas turbine, hydro.
> 
> ...



Oh yeah I know all about internal combustion engines, I've been a car guy forever and even ran a transport/logistics business. Just no idea about power stations.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> That's really cool. Looks like standard 10 amp 240v power too? Or are you up to 15 amp?
> 
> What's the ratio of time charging:time running? It obviously takes a lot more than 2.4kw (or 3.6kw if you have 15 amp) to move a car.




That’s the 8 amp Portable charger you get free with your Tesla, it can go into any 10 amp socket, it also comes with a 16 amp plug that is interchangeable.

You also get a larger fixed wall charger That can be installed by an electrician that can go up to 32 amp but I haven’t done that because we will be moving soon.

—————

The portable charger I am using is the slowest way to charge, It adds about 120 kms of driving per hour 10 hours of charge.

If you drive more than 800 kms per week though, you would be better off installing the Tesla wall charger that you get with the car, it can charge up to 4 times faster.

On road trips if you are driving between cities, you use the Tesla Super chargers, they can give you an 80% charge (4 hours of driving) in 15-20 mins.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Oh yeah I know all about internal combustion engines, I've been a car guy forever and even ran a transport/logistics business. Just no idea about power stations.



I'm a bit the opposite, always worked on cars and bikes, love them.
But my day job was running a power station.lol


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Why do you think I asked about the charge:running time ratio? And about 15 amp and 3 phase charging?
> 
> I've been looking for an excuse to install 3 phase power for ages. My shed just can't justify it. Installing 15 amp power is far far simpler though.
> 
> I wouldn't bat an eyelid at installing 15 amp or even 3 phase power if it was a game changer reference charging an electric car for regular use, and it's only a few g's if you want it too.




In time I might look at buying a hydrogen vehicle and installing a hydrogen generator in my backyard.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> That’s the 8 amp Portable charger you get free with your Tesla, it can go into any 10 amp socket, it also comes with a 16 amp plug that is interchangeable.
> 
> You also get a larger fixed wall charger That can be installed by an electrician that can go up to 32 amp but I haven’t done that because we will be moving soon.
> 
> ...




Could I be a massive pain and get you to take pictures of all the plugs & holes for me as I'd know what I was looking at then?

The tesla wall charger sounds like a battery that charges slow/at wall speed all the time and then just dumps quickly into the car's battery once plugged in?

And yeah I've heard about those super chargers, they're probably the infrastructure chronos is talking about. Hence me saying that if batteries can improve then the infrastructure becomes unnecessary. 

I've heard they absolutely murder the batteries' actual life (how many times they can be recharged, how long they hold their full charge for etc etc) though?

Even if tesla don't supply absolutely everything needed for 10 amp, 15 amp, 3 phase etc etc wall charging I am SURE that a decent electrician or even just electrical engineering company like clipsal or whomever would be able to come up with some kind of adapter harness system or whatever. There's no way this is a problem that couldn't be solved.



sptrawler said:


> I'm a bit the opposite, always worked on cars and bikes, love them.
> But my day job was running a power station.lol



I see we both have appropriate profile pictures then


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> How often do you drive; do you drive 100s of kms a day?




my driving varies, as I said I am retired.

but as I said above, if you drive less than 800I’m per week and charged 10hours each night you would be fine with the portable charger.

If you need to drive more than 800km per week install the wall charger, mine is still in its box, I haven’t needed it yet.

 charging during the days I am home and over night a few times when it gets low and using superchargers on road trips has been more than enough for me.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> In time I might look at buying a hydrogen vehicle and installing a hydrogen generator in my backyard.




it’s more efficient to charge a battery than make hydrogen, energy loss in the hydrogen process is huge compared to the 5% you lose charging a battery


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

What's involved with installing the wall charger/how does it work?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> View attachment 105958
> View attachment 105959
> 
> 
> ...




This sort of setup won't work in say Tasmania.



Value Collector said:


> it’s more efficient to charge a battery than make hydrogen, energy loss in the hydrogen process is huge compared to the 5% you lose charging a battery




You lose more than 5% charging a battery. Could be up above 25%.

I can store hydrogen in a tank in my back yard, produce it easily with water and electricity, and I can refill my tank in a couple of minutes. Also I can travel further on a tank of hydrogen.


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> This sort of set
> 
> 
> You lose more than 5% charging a battery. Could be up above 25%.
> ...



Hydrogen really only makes sense as fuel in heavy equipment, there are a huge amount of losses in an electrolyser.
Having said that, I also believe unless batteries improve, my guess is eventually they will be phased out.
This will be mainly due to the depletion of resources, the toxic waste and the push toward public transport in major cities.
I think it will only be a matter of time before cars become a luxury, as they were 50 years ago, the roads will probably be ruled by autonomous ride share vehicles and public transport. Just my opinion


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Hydrogen really only makes sense as fuel in heavy equipment, there are a huge amount of losses in an electrolyser.
> Having said that, I also believe unless batteries improve, my guess is eventually they will be phased out.
> This will be mainly due to the depletion of resources, the toxic waste and the push toward public transport in major cities.
> I think it will only be a matter of time before cars become a luxury, as they were 50 years ago, the roads will probably be ruled by autonomous ride share vehicles and public transport. Just my opinion




70% TO 80% efficiency in electrolysis. Technology will improve it in time.

I have heard reports of 30% loss when charging Tesla batteries.

I would rather have the hydrogen in a tank ready to go, for a refill in minutes, than having to charge my car overnight or relying on the sun to store/recharge my home battery, to then recharge my car battery. Convenience and time are also an important aspect.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> This sort of setup won't work in say Tasmania.



But it doesn't have to though dude, you can just use normal hydro/coal/nuclear/geothermal/whatever produced electricity? And then just charge your vehicle overnight? I don't know why you're so hung up on renewables? 

The only thing electric vehicles can't currently do is day/road trips and that's just a battery tech thing. Like you said, there's no way they'll build those supercharger stations everywhere (and all the $$$$ infrastructure necessary to power them) when they could just pump the same money into battery R&D and render said supercharger stations redundant.

I'd own an EV no problem at all if the batteries didn't die after ten years (or whatever it is) and need replacing for $lots, and the cars themselves were a lot cheaper obviously.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> But it doesn't have to though dude, you can just use normal hydro/coal/nuclear/geothermal/whatever produced electricity? And then just charge your vehicle overnight? I don't know why you're so hung up on renewables?
> 
> The only thing electric vehicles can't currently do is day/road trips and that's just a battery tech thing. Like you said, there's no way they'll build those supercharger stations everywhere (and all the $$$$ infrastructure necessary to power them) when they could just pump the same money into battery R&D and render said supercharger stations redundant.
> 
> I'd own an EV no problem at all if the batteries didn't die after ten years (or whatever it is) and need replacing for $lots, and the cars themselves were a lot cheaper obviously.




It is a way of life. You can choose to run an electric vehicle. I will choose hydrogen.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Could I be a massive pain and get you to take pictures of all the plugs & holes for me as I'd know what I was looking at then?
> 
> The tesla wall charger sounds like a battery that charges slow/at wall speed all the time and then just dumps quickly into the car's battery once plugged in?
> 
> ...




here is some photos, I tried to find the 16 amp plug that interchanges with the plug I am using now but I don’t know where I put it, basically it just has a fatter earth plug.

No, the wall charger isn’t a battery, it is just a charger you mount to the wall that can accept higher voltages, you can run a dedicated line to it or you can run 3 phase to it to get 32 amps.

super chargers are fine for the battery, it’s only people that are running their Tesla’s like taxis and supercharging every day That has issues,  it even then it’s only slightly reduces the battery capacity, and Tesla have programmed the superchargers to slow the charge a bit on the batteries that have been supercharged a lot.

but they won’t need as many superchargers as we have petrol stations, because 99% of people will charge at home, it’s only road trips you need super chargers.

you can see on the bottom right of the photo my last supercharger session was back in March on a trip to from Brisbane to Sydney, $7.98 pretty cheap haha


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> View attachment 105960
> View attachment 105961
> View attachment 105962
> 
> ...





What about your rooftop solar? Don't you have a home battery?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> But it doesn't have to though dude, you can just use normal hydro/coal/nuclear/geothermal/whatever produced electricity? And then just charge your vehicle overnight? I don't know why you're so hung up on renewables?
> 
> The only thing electric vehicles can't currently do is day/road trips and that's just a battery tech thing. Like you said, there's no way they'll build those supercharger stations everywhere (and all the $$$$ infrastructure necessary to power them) when they could just pump the same money into battery R&D and render said supercharger stations redundant.
> 
> I'd own an EV no problem at all if the batteries didn't die after ten years (or whatever it is) and need replacing for $lots, and the cars themselves were a lot cheaper obviously.




So we are going to charge/recharge how many batteries to ensure supply of electricity for EVs now? Large scale battery storage from solar and wind farms, home battery storage for roof-top solar, car batteries 

There must be a fair bit of electricity lost with all the battery charging.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

I found the other cable, you just unclick the one that’s in the block now and click this one in.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> What about your rooftop solar? Don't you have a home battery?




nope, I don’t have a battery.


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2020)

How much did the Tesla cost VC?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> nope, I don’t have a battery.




So you feed back into the grid?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Where is the QLDFrog? Are we going to finish our exercise?


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> It is a way of life. You can choose to run an electric vehicle. I will choose hydrogen.




hydrogen fuel cell cars are electric vehicles, it’s just that they get their electric current via a hydrogen fuel cell rather than a battery.

That’s why I said it’s more efficient to Use your solar to charge a battery directly and only lose 5% in conversion, rather than lose 60% of your electricity converting it to hydrogen and running compressors etc.

ofcourse existing oil companies would rather you have a hydrogen vehicle, because they want to use their natural gas to make the hydrogen, and they want you to attend their fuel stations rather than charge at home.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> So you feed back into the grid?




yep, what ever I don’t use myself I sell for 17cents back to the grid, and at night I purchase for 23 cents.

May the moment that’s cheaper than having a home battery, especially because I can use my car to absorb during the day.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> There must be a fair bit of electricity lost with all the battery charging.




you lose about 5% in battery charging, not much at all compared to other options.

I mean even pumping petrol from one tank to another which happens multiple times between the oil field and the petrol bowser requires energy loss from electric pumps


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Let's take the edge off here for a moment:
> 
> Can someone tell me why my whole "plug it into the charging stations in the hotel carpark" scenario won't come to pass? The hotel already has a beefy power connection, so just flick them a few extra bucks, plug it in, and have a fully charged car in the morning?
> 
> ...



A lot of the issues will revolve around the ability of the electrical distribution system, to be able to cope with the increased load, most distribution systems were set up years ago so their infrastructure will be probably unsuitable in most cases and require upgrading.
The other aspect on the same issue, will be the ability for cars to not only import electricity, but to also export electricity. The advent of electric cars and house batteries, has in reality turned the suburban electrical distribution system on its head.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> hydrogen fuel cell cars are electric vehicles, it’s just that they get their electric current via a hydrogen fuel cell rather than a battery.
> 
> That’s why I said it’s more efficient to Use your solar to charge a battery directly and only lose 5% in conversion, rather than lose 60% of your electricity converting it to hydrogen and running compressors etc.
> 
> ofcourse existing oil companies would rather you have a hydrogen vehicle, because they want to use their natural gas to make the hydrogen, and they want you to attend their fuel stations rather than charge at home.




But you don't lose only 5% when charging your battery? Go have a read on the Tesla forums.

Electrolysis conversion 70% to 80% efficiency.

Yes, the hydrogen vehicles overall aren't as efficient as an electric vehicle under certain applications and scenarios. However, as I said; I don't want to be waiting or having to remember to recharge my battery overnight, or having to worry about grid failure. I want to pop into a station, top up the tank in a couple of minutes and be on my way; or I want to have some hydrogen stored in my backyard to refill in an emergency within minutes.

Minutes are crucial in an emergency!


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Don't forget to plug in before you go to bed . You might be late to work, or the kids might be waiting an hour or two to get dropped off or picked up from school.




The average family doesn’t go to the petrol station every day, so they wouldn’t need to charge everyday either, if would matter if you went a few days without charging, however it just becomes a habit to plug in every time you park the car and you will have a full battery every morning, no need to go to then petrol station, unless it’s to inflate tyres and grab a coke.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

https://www.reportlinker.com/market-report/Refined-Products/6828/Hydrogen?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=High_Tech_And_Media&utm_adgroup=Hydrogen_Market_Reports&msclkid=ab53151acda910f2335f4a1780c06e1b&utm_term=+hydrogen +production&utm_content=Hydrogen Market Reports


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> The average family doesn’t go to the petrol station every day, so they wouldn’t need to charge everyday either, if would matter if you went a few days without charging, however it just becomes a habit to plug in every time you park the car and you will have a full battery every morning, no need to go to then petrol station, unless it’s to inflate tyres and grab a coke.




It is an inconvenient way to live; people are going to choose hydrogen fuel cell cars, which are just electric vehicles with a hydrogen fuel tank, if you like.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> But you don't lose only 5% when charging your battery? Go have a read on the Tesla forums.
> 
> Electrolysis conversion 70% to 80% efficiency.
> 
> ...




Tesla hand book says 8% is lost during charging, I rounded it down to 5% because slow charging doesn’t require the cooling system to operate.

your figures for hydrogen electrolysis don’t include running a compressor to compress the hydrogen into your tank.

Think about all the extra equipment and plumping you need to produce and compress hydrogen, verses just plugging an ev in.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> View attachment 105960
> View attachment 105961
> View attachment 105962
> 
> ...






Value Collector said:


> I found the other cable, you just unclick the one that’s in the block now and click this one in.
> 
> View attachment 105964
> View attachment 105965




Yep that's a 15 amp plug. Will obviously charge in 2/3rds the time compared to a normal 10 amp one. Pretty easy to get a 15 amp circuit installed by an electrician 






Chronos-Plutus said:


> So we are going to charge/recharge how many batteries to ensure supply of electricity for EVs now? Large scale battery storage from solar and wind farms, home battery storage for roof-top solar, car batteries
> 
> There must be a fair bit of electricity lost with all the battery charging.




No I mean you just charge the car overnight by plugging it into the wall. Use all existing infrastructure. You just plug it in when you park it in the garage or at the hotel carpark. Done.

Why couldn't we do that?


sptrawler said:


> A lot of the issues will revolve around the ability of the electrical distribution system, to be able to cope with the increased load, most distribution systems were set up years ago so their infrastructure will be probably unsuitable in most cases and require upgrading.
> The other aspect on the same issue, will be the ability for cars to not only import electricity, but to also export electricity. The advent of electric cars and house batteries, has in reality turned the suburban electrical distribution system on its head.




Couldn't we just charge in off-peak times? Just like how the internet at the moment is absolutely fine during the day with everyone working from home because it was designed to deal with the peak evening time which is still way above daytime use now?



Chronos-Plutus said:


> It is an inconvenient way to live; people are going to choose hydrogen fuel cell cars, which are just electric vehicles with a hydrogen fuel tank, if you like.




How is plugging your car into the wall a big inconvenience?


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> It is an inconvenient way to live; people are going to choose hydrogen fuel cell cars, which are just electric vehicles with a hydrogen fuel tank, if you like.




No, it’s actually More inconvenient to have to pull into a service station and spend 10 minutes fueling and paying instead of just spending 10 seconds to plug into your garage.

think about it, if you had a system set up in your garage that slowly filled your car up with petrol every night while you slept, and it was 4 times cheaper than going to the service station, would you actually ever Choose to go to the service station?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla hand book says 8% is lost during charging, I rounded it down to 5% because slow charging doesn’t require the cooling system to operate.
> 
> your figures for hydrogen electrolysis don’t include running a compressor to compress the hydrogen into your tank.
> 
> Think about all the extra equipment and plumping you need to produce and compress hydrogen, verses just plugging an ev in.




The average person isn't interested in that. They are interested in saving money, practicality and convenience. That equals ICE vehicles for a very long time. If I had to choose between an electric vehicle or a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle; I choose hydrogen. However I don't even have a car or drive; public transport is adequate for me.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Yep that's a 15 amp plug. Will obviously charge in 2/3rds the time compared to a normal 10 amp one. Pretty easy to get a 15 amp circuit installed by an electrician
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Mate; owning and driving a car is even an inconvenience for some people. I don't even own a car or drive.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla hand book says 8% is lost during charging, I rounded it down to 5% because slow charging doesn’t require the cooling system to operate.
> 
> your figures for hydrogen electrolysis don’t include running a compressor to compress the hydrogen into your tank.
> 
> Think about all the extra equipment and plumping you need to produce and compress hydrogen, verses just plugging an ev in.




The hydrogen fuel cell automotive industry segment is in its infancy. As I said, in a decade or two, we can't say with any certainty that full EVs will still be around.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> The average person isn't interested in that. They are interested in saving money, practicality and convenience. That equals ICE vehicles for a very long time. If I had to choose between an electric vehicle or a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle; I choose hydrogen. However I don't even have a car or drive; public transport is adequate for me.




EV’s are cheaper when you factor in the much lower cost of fueling it and the almost none existent routine maintenance.

And as I pointed out they are far more convenient to fuel compared to going to the service station.

But as you just said you don’t even have a car, so perhaps you don’t really understand those points either.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> EV’s are cheaper when you factor in the much lower cost of fueling it and the almost none existent routine maintenance.
> 
> And as I pointed out they are far more convenient to fuel compared to going to the service station.
> 
> But as you just said you don’t even have a car, so perhaps you don’t really understand those points either.




OK; let it rip. 100% EVs.

Now I would like to look at what the implications are. Where is the QLDFrog, so we can get back to our exercise.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> The hydrogen fuel cell automotive industry segment is in its infancy. As I said, in a decade or two, we can't say with any certainty that full EVs will still be around.




keep in mind that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are EV’s.

So either way EV’s are the future, so all you are debating is whether is best to run those EV’s with hydrogen tanks or batteries.

As some one who actually has owned an EV for nearly a year, I can say that I much prefer the Battery system, it’s easy to charge myself, and it’s much easier to roll out infrastructure.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> keep in mind that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are EV’s.
> 
> So either way EV’s are the future, so all you are debating is whether is best to run those EV’s with hydrogen tanks or batteries.
> 
> As some one who actually has owned an EV for nearly a year, I can say that I much prefer the Battery system, it’s easy to charge myself, and it’s much easier to roll out infrastructure.




Yes they are EVs with a hydrogen fuel tank. It is like comparing a turbo prop to a gas turbine engine.

But you have never pulled an engine apart and put it back together, so you wouldn't understand or know how engines work.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> OK; let it rip. 100% EVs.
> 
> .




we are , gradually over the next 10 - 20 years.

anyway, I think I have said all that’s needs to be said.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> we are , gradually over the next 10 - 20 years.
> 
> anyway, I think I have said all that’s needs to be said.




OK; good so we can look at the implication now, with a forecast of 10 -20 years for 100% EVs


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> OK; good so we can look at the implication now, with a forecast of 10 -20 years for 100% EVs




Knock yourself out, just try and learn a bit more so your assumptions aren’t as crazy this time.

also it wouldn’t ever be 100% I mean some people still ride horses, I imagine petrol cars will stick around for a long time, but they will increasing just be for enjoyment purposes, of special situations.

people will want EV’s for their daily commute and work cars.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Knock yourself out, just try and learn a bit more so your assumptions aren’t as crazy this time.




My assumptions aren't crazy; I have said from the start that we are looking at TWs of electricity and trillions of dollars, for 100% EVs for the USA.

Now we have to do it in 10-20 years according to you


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> My assumptions aren't crazy; I have said from the start that we are looking at TWs of electricity and trillions of dollars for the USA.
> 
> Now we have to do it in 10-20 years according to you




I think every one here can see your assumptions are crazy except for you.

anyway I am done here for now, I am going to try and get an ink master episode in before dinner, and big brother is on after that.

good night.


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## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I think every one here can see your assumptions are crazy except for you.
> 
> anyway I am done here for now, I am going to try and get an ink master episode in before dinner, and big brother is on after that.
> 
> good night.




Sorry I think you're crazy thinking we will have 100% EVs within 10 to 20 years.

Why don't we do a survey on here to see if people think that you're a nut job thinking that we will have 100% EVs in 10 to 20 years in the USA!

Good to see that you're spending your time in retirement productively.


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## over9k (14 July 2020)

Still wondering what the problem with the whole "charge from home or hotel carpark" situation I mentioned is?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Still wondering what the problem with the whole "charge from home or hotel carpark" situation I mentioned is?




Still wondering why we can't finish our exercise, so that we can get some decent information to make informed investment decisions in EV companies over long-term horizons.

Basilio needs to gagged so that the verbal vomit doesn't containment and derail the thread and exercise.

Value Collector can stay in his grand delusions within the Tesla induced hypnosis, if he likes.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 July 2020)

Well, I think we have been missing a trick, all EV or all hydrogen, the extremes.

We haven't even discussed hybrids which in my view are more attractive to the non sophisticated consumer, which means most people out there.

Petrol or diesel in the country, battery electric in the city, plug in at home too. No range fear , take advantage of which fuel is the cheapest, no need to be dependent on the oil companies or the electric companies, the best of both worlds.

Strange that a lot of people only see the extremes and don't see the middle ground, like politics really.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, I think we have been missing a trick, all EV or all hydrogen, the extremes.
> 
> We haven't even discussed hybrids which in my view are more attractive to the non sophisticated consumer, which means most people out there.
> 
> ...





It all comes down to personal preference. If I was going to buy a car right now; I would like to buy a Ferrari California. If I had to choose between a hydrogen fuel cell or full electric vehicle; I would choose the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. If I was forced to buy an electric vehicle; I would buy a Porsche Taycan.

I don't won't to be worried about having to recharge my car every night for ~10 hours. Then having to worry about sitting in a recharge station for 30 mins to recharge my car. It isn't practical and convenient for me.

Anyway, I live in  a large city, single with no kids. I don't really need a car.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, I think we have been missing a trick, all EV or all hydrogen, the extremes.
> 
> We haven't even discussed hybrids which in my view are more attractive to the non sophisticated consumer, which means most people out there.
> 
> ...



I was going to mention this, but the thread is about electric cars, not hybrids. 

I can see hybrids being the default until batteries last 12+ hours of driving.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I was going to mention this, but the thread is about electric cars, not hybrids.
> 
> I can see hybrids being the default until batteries last 12+ hours of driving.







That is 1389375 GW/h per year of electricity the USA will need to go 100% EV, based on 2019 figures.

Ask your mate who is an electrical engineer, if this is a small number and how much it will cost.

I don't want to keep moving forward with this exercise because there are some people on here that are only interested in taking cheap shots. That is why I am getting consensus before moving forward.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

I would take this any day over an electric vehicle and so would 99% of people.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Sorry I think you're crazy thinking we will have 100% EVs within 10 to 20 years.
> 
> .




I actually said we wouldn’t ever be 100%.

but you can misconstrue what I say as much as you like if it helps you get through the night, any way don’t have anymore time for you.

bye.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I would take this any day over an electric vehicle and so would 99% of people.





I Thought you took the bus, Hahaha.

anyway I think I will put you on ignore.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I Thought you took the bus, Hahaha.
> 
> anyway I think I will put you on ignore.





Go for it.

Lucky you got that garage to recharge your Tesla. How many people have to park in the street overnight.

Talk about crazy, you bring it to a whole new level buddy.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I actually said we wouldn’t ever be 100%.
> 
> but you can misconstrue what I say as much as you like if it helps you get through the night, any way don’t have anymore time for you.
> 
> bye.




Right, OK. So what percentage would you like?

Governments plan over multiple decades, not on an overnight dream that you read in a handbook.

I thought you said that you have to watch other people live their lives on TV?


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> View attachment 105971
> 
> 
> That is 1389375 GW/h per year of electricity the USA will need to go 100% EV, based on 2019 figures.
> ...



I'm not sure of your angle here - what exactly are you saying will never happen? If it's those supercharging stations everywhere then I agree with you but battery tech will render them obsolete. 

The grid itself can already handle wall charging as long as it doesn't increase peak demand. It's no different to just running heaters overnight in winter or air conditioning in summer. It's when peak demand increases that the grid needs to be beefed up.

There's absolutely nothing stopping people running EV's as commuter vehicles right now except cost. Energy generation is much much more efficient (cheaper) from a power station than an internal combustion engine. People just can't go dropping 6 figures on a car that they can only use as a commuter. Once they can use it for long trips, that'll change.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I'm not sure of your angle here - what exactly are you saying will never happen? If it's those supercharging stations everywhere then I agree with you but battery tech will render them obsolete.
> 
> The grid itself can already handle wall charging as long as it doesn't increase peak demand. It's no different to just running heaters overnight in winter or air conditioning in summer. It's when peak demand increases that the grid needs to be beefed up.
> 
> There's absolutely nothing stopping people running EV's as commuter vehicles right now except cost. Energy generation is much much more efficient (cheaper) from a power station than an internal combustion engine.




Are we going to put recharge stations in every street for people to recharge their cars overnight because they don't have a garage?

Or are people going to run extension cords from the street into their homes?


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

You obviously wouldn't buy an electric car if you can't keep it charged somehow. But the vast, vast, vast majority of cars are not parked on the street.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> You obviously wouldn't buy an electric car if you can't keep it charged somehow. But the vast, vast, vast majority of cars are not parked on the street.




Really, this is just too funny now 

Not in the large cities, people fight for street parking overnight.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Dude here in aus I've lived in hobart, melbourne, adelaide, sydney, and brisbane. The overwhelming majority of cars have somewhere private to park them - garage, carport, hell even apartments virtually always come with parking spots. Do I really need to bring up data showing how many street parking permits exist vs how many cars exist? 

Most cars are not parked on the street overnight.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

This company in London is converting street lamps into charging locations.

it just shows charging infrastructure is so much simpler to install than petrol stations.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Dude here in aus I've lived in hobart, melbourne, adelaide, sydney, and brisbane. The overwhelming majority of cars have somewhere private to park them - garage, carport, hell even apartments virtually always come with parking spots. Do I really need to bring up data showing how many street parking permits exist vs how many cars exist?
> 
> Most cars are not parked on the street overnight.




Mate; go speak to people who live in the inner city suburbs in Sydney.

Nowhere near the vast majority. Maybe 50%.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> This company in London is converting street lamps into charging locations.
> 
> it just shows charging infrastructure is so much simpler to install than petrol stations.





And how many windmills on their island or in their seas, will they need to ensure electrical capacity and supply?

It isn't practical for nations or city states like Hong Kong, Singapore. That is for sure.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> This company in London is converting street lamps into charging locations.
> 
> it just shows charging infrastructure is so much simpler to install than petrol stations.





Painful for dogs though.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> This company in London is converting street lamps into charging locations.
> 
> it just shows charging infrastructure is so much simpler to install than petrol stations.





How much is this all going to cost?

What's to stop someone pulling the cord out?


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Mate; go speak to people who live in the inner city suburbs in Sydney.
> 
> Nowhere near the vast majority. Maybe 50%.



The inner city suburbs of sydney are not representative of the entire planet, and even if they were, according to you, we could still convert half the cars to electric. That's still a LOT of cars.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> The inner city suburbs of sydney are not representative of the entire planet, and even if they were, according to you, we could still convert half the cars to electric. That's still a LOT of cars.




I said maybe!

You said the VAST VAST MAJORITY! That is well above 75% in statistical terms.

We aren't allowed to do research here, because we have some people  here that are only interested in cheap shots.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Let's assume that you or I lived somewhere that the car could just be plugged into the wall and charged overnight at - which about 3/4 of the country does (and this is a conservative estimate).  

Now all we need is for the batteries to hold enough juice for a full day's driving the family on a trip or something and there's no reason not to own one if it's cheaper (purchase and running costs combined) than an internal combustion engine. None.

The absolute worst thing you'd have to do is maybe get a 15 amp circuit (a single day's work for an electrician) or 3 phase power (a few grand to your power company) installed in order to get enough charge into the car overnight. That's it. That's the absolute worst headache you have.

The only things stopping 3/4 of the country having an electric car right this very second are upfront cost(s) of purchase and battery technology (life), both of which are improving constantly.

We don't even need to move to renewable energy as it's already waaaay more efficient (cheaper) to burn fossil fuels in a power station than in an internal combustion engine. It's literally plug & play. We don't have to do a single thing to the grid at all.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Let's assume that you or I lived somewhere that the car could just be plugged into the wall and charged overnight at - which about 3/4 of the country does (and this is a conservative estimate).
> 
> Now all we need is for the batteries to hold enough juice for a full day's driving the family on a trip or something and there's no reason not to own one if it's cheaper (purchase and running costs combined) than an internal combustion engine. None.
> 
> ...




1. This all started with Basilio's silly and nonsense post about 100% EVs being produced in the coming years. Thus, Basilio is wrong and absolutely has no clue, idea or understanding about energy, electricity or capital costs.

2. I am not interested in buying an electric vehicle. If I want to buy a vehicle, I want to buy a Ferrari California.

3. I have already highlighted there are many significant reasons why this country will not be going moving to majority EVs, particularly within our large cities, because there just isn't the infrastructure to support it, and the vast majority of people don't want to pay the 100s of billions of dollars, in taxpayer funds.

4. If you want to buy an EV, and you can put roof-top solar on your home, and you can charge it in your garage; go for it. Just don't expect the rest of the country to subscribe to your life choices, or to enact into law your will, or to spend our taxpayer's money on your utopian world dreams.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

But what I'm saying to you man is that we don't need to build any more infrastructure to support it. We can use the stuff we have right now and literally plug the car into the wall like a kettle and charge it overnight using the existing grid and the existing power plants. No need for tons of infrastructure spend beefing the grid up, no need for renewables either as fossil fuel produces WAY more energy in a power plant than it does in a normal car's engine.

The problem is that the batteries don't last long enough for electric cars to be practical. If they did, absolutely everyone would own one as electricity is waaaay cheaper per km than petrol. Way cheaper.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Most cars are not parked on the street overnight.



Even if they are, it's not necessarily a problem.

Location is Paris. Photo taken by me in 2017.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> But what I'm saying to you man is that we don't need to build any more infrastructure to support it. We can use the stuff we have right now and literally plug the car into the wall like a kettle and charge it overnight using the existing grid and the existing power plants. No need for tons of infrastructure, no need for renewables either as fossil fuel produces WAY more energy in a power plant than it does in a normal car's engine.
> 
> The problem is that the batteries don't last long enough for electric cars to be practical. If they did, absolutely everyone would own one as electricity is waaaay cheaper per km than petrol. Way cheaper.




Sure; let people buy their EVs, I am not stopping them. Electricity companies can just tier their charges based on electrical consumption. The more electricity you use, the more you will pay.

That way they can make a killing and build more powerplants without asking the government for handouts.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Even if they are, it's not necessarily a problem.
> 
> Location is Paris, date about 3 years ago.
> 
> ...




Are you going to put them in every residential street in Sydney?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

This is good, now we are really getting an idea of the magnitude and cost of going 100% EV.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

100% would obviously require all those overnight street charging stations to be built, but that's all. The grid and power stations wouldn't need anything. 

We're capable of at least 75% electric right now if only the batteries lasted longer.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> 100% would obviously require all those overnight street charging stations to be built, but that's all. The grid and power stations wouldn't need anything.
> 
> We're capable of at least 75% electric right now if only the batteries lasted longer.




In Sydney?

75% EV?

Without charging stations and additional power stations?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> 100% would obviously require all those overnight street charging stations to be built, but that's all. The grid and power stations wouldn't need anything.
> 
> We're capable of at least 75% electric right now if only the batteries lasted longer.




We need to finish my exercise to see if your call is true!


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

If the batteries lasted long enough for them to be practical, we could, right now, have an electric car at every house/flat/whatever that has a wall socket to charge it from. Every single one.

As far as the grid and stations are concerned, it's just like having an air conditioner or heater running overnight. Literally like that.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> If the batteries lasted long enough for them to be practical, we could, right now, have an electric car at every house/flat/whatever that has a wall socket to charge it from. Every single one.
> 
> As far as the grid and stations are concerned, it's just like having an air conditioner or heater running overnight. Literally like that.




I don't think Sydney will be putting residential recharge stations in every side street of Sydney. Go have a look at suburbs like Balmain and Glebe.

We are trying to declutter our cities, not clutter them with transmission lines and recharge stations.

Those little recharge stations will be destroyed in a few months in Paris. Have you seen the riots that take place in Paris!


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 July 2020)

Here's a much older EV and yes it's the first one I and quite a few others ever drove:




It's a standard Daihatsu Charade converted to fully electric power in the 1990's for the Integrated Energy Management Centre.

The car was fully road registered for normal use on public streets and over the years rather a lot of people have driven it from tradesmen and office workers through to senior management and a former state premier. It's been on the TV news, it's been at various shows and so on too. Plenty took an interest in it at the time.

Car shown here sometime in the 1990's parked at the Hydro-Electric Corporation workshops at Moonah (suburban Hobart). 

Charging was via a normal household power point. It simply plugged in.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Here's a much older EV and yes it's the first one I and quite a few others ever drove:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





That is well and wonderful Smurf. ONE vehicle.

The installation and maintenance costs of your little Paris recharge stations would be quite significant. Having to inspect and maintain them constantly to ensure that they are complaint, safe and operational.

The costs are mounting for your case Smurf. Your hole is getting deeper and deeper.

Not to mention many streets in Sydney  have very narrow sidewalks, trees in the way, and so on.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I don't think Sydney will be putting residential recharge stations in every side street of Sydney. Go have a look at suburbs like Balmain and Glebe.
> 
> We are trying to declutter our cities, not clutter them with transmission lines and recharge stations.
> 
> Those little recharge stations will be destroyed in a few months in Paris. Have you seen the riots that take place in Paris!



Nah but everywhere else could. Still a looot of cars


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Nah but everywhere else could. Still a looot of cars




Yeah, everywhere outside the red circle. Smurf can convince the SA Government to do it. LOL. Put the recharge stations in every residential street in Adelaide.




HAHA.

Or maybe the Victorians are stupid enough to do it. Dan Andrews is a good target for Elon. If I was Elon, I would be approaching Dan Andrews, he might be willing to spend Victorian's money on this sort of fairy tale stuff, with recharge stations in every residential street.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Any house/flat/whatever that has a garage or carport could right this very second.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Any house/flat/whatever that has a garage or carport could right this very second.




I don't have an issue with individuals buying EVs. The NSW and Federal government will need to work with the electricity companies to bring in a tier system to charge people more for their electricity consumption. However we aren't putting in recharge stations in every residential street in Sydney and we need to ensure that capacity is adequate so that we don't compromise our grid. 

I will still take the Ferrari California over an electric vehicle.

I said before that I give Elon credit for what he has done. Elon is a businessman, first and foremost; not some save the planet environmental warrior.


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

What do you mean a tier system? It's just the power you pay for now already?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> What do you mean a tier system? It's just the power you pay for now already?




The more you use the more you pay per KW/h. Because electricity will become more scarce and we need to build more powerplants. This will ensure a smoother transition. The electricity companies will then have the funds to build more powerplants and those that are using more electricity will be paying for it.

What? Did you expect me to pay for the new powerplants for this transition?

I am happy with my Ferrari!


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Not necessary as long as the vehicles are charged outside of peak hours. The grid and plants are made to handle the max the power draw gets to each day. As long as you don't increase that draw, you can increase any other time of day without needing to change anything.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Not necessary as long as the vehicles are charged outside of peak hours. The grid and plants are made to handle the max the power draw gets to each day. As long as you don't increase that draw, you can increase any other time of day without needing to change anything.




But so many people will be drawing electricity at night now?

Like everyone turning on their aircon units during the day when it is hot.

Some sort of tier system must come in. People are just trying to go cheap. You want an EV, you pay for it, I am not going to subsidize it for you.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Not necessary as long as the vehicles are charged outside of peak hours. The grid and plants are made to handle the max the power draw gets to each day. As long as you don't increase that draw, you can increase any other time of day without needing to change anything.




There will be no peak and off-peak. It will just be peak. Example: hot during the day, everyone turns on the aircons, at night everyone recharges their cars.

Forget about the off-peak and peak wave, that is gone under this scenario.

We are jumping the steps of the exercise. We could have looked at all this methodically if we continued with the exercise.


----------



## basilio (14 July 2020)

*Clarification.*
A bit of housekeeping just to make things clear

This is what Chronos believes I said



Chronos-Plutus said:


> 1. This all started with Basilio's silly and nonsense post about 100% EVs being produced in the coming years. Thus, Basilio is wrong and absolutely has no clue, idea or understanding about energy, electricity or capital costs.




*In fact my  first post was :                                 post 1924

One analysis of where electric cars are going.

The Osborne Effect: Why new car sales will be all electric in six years
https://thedriven.io/2020/07/07/the...-car-sales-will-be-all-electric-in-six-years/
*
I explained myself in detail later on.

_My reference was to an analysis which suggested that that all /almost all new car sales could be electric in 6 years.

That doesn't mean we won't be using petrol for the rest of the current cars. So I can't understand why people make a totally unnecessary straw man argument about substituting all gas sales with electricity.

As far as the analysis goes ? Basically saying that the cost differential between petrol and electric is rapidly decreasing and that many people are probably waiting a few years before they buy their next car. Interestingly enough if Tesla and other companies are producing a million mile battery which also helps power their home the value of going electric increases significantly.*  post  1936
*_


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

basilio said:


> *Clarification.*
> A bit of housekeeping just to make things clear
> 
> This is what Chronos believes I said
> ...




No strawman here. I am willing to find consensus here to work through an exercise.

At the moment, we are somewhere between establishing the electricity capacity needed and what the gap is to make up in peak and off-peak demand for 100% EV. Also the sun isn't shining during the day, capacity factor for wind is ~30%, the coal and gas powerplant industry has been decimated, and nuclear has been out of the question for a long time. Is it more big battery sales for Elon


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

*"Biden Unveils $2 Trillion Plan To Move US To "100% Clean Energy" By 2035"*

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/biden-unveils-2-trillion-plan-move-us-100-clean-energy-2035


----------



## qldfrog (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Sure; hydrogen has its own problems also; however I think the problems are more easily resolved in juxtaposition to electric vehicles.
> 
> I am not against EVs either, I just don't see nations building also the required infrastructure this century to assist with the 100% EV transition.
> 
> ...



Not a fan of H2 but it could use the same network, distributors etc than current oil based system, so this would be much simpler, and would not require anywhere as much rare earth and complex newer technologies.Just worried with storage leaks and losses but still easier to store than electricity


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> How much is this all going to cost?
> 
> What's to stop someone pulling the cord out?




did you watch the video?

the cord locks itself at both ends.

The system is paid for by the users, you tell the company which street you want the charges installed, and they give you their charging cable and the charging fee is deducted from your Credit card.

And you can use your cable in any street where the sockets have been installed around the country, for every member that signs up they add 2 or 3 new sockets.

But this is just one example of how it can be done, there are many many solutions out there, none of them very difficult, which solutions stick and become common will be up to Th he market.


----------



## qldfrog (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Let's take the edge off here for a moment:
> 
> Can someone tell me why my whole "plug it into the charging stations in the hotel carpark" scenario won't come to pass? The hotel already has a beefy power connection, so just flick them a few extra bucks, plug it in, and have a fully charged car in the morning?
> 
> ...



quick answer based on own example:
as a hobby farm pool 2 freezers, electric oven and cottage with A/C fridge etc are big power users around 25kwh a day;
that is the same as would be needed for 1 car to do 100km
But we have 3 cars, when working each car just for commuting was doing a minimum of 50km and the guest at the cottage have a minimum 1 car doing a minimum 50km->4x50km
going electric would see my house power consumption jump  from 25kwh a day to a minimum of 
25+50=75kWh a day;
trippling my house domestic consumption, the lot at night so no help from solar panels
imagine the result for the cables at the beginning of the street...
so can you double or tripple your domestic home/unit consumption;

just looking at network and end of line infrastructure..will cause issue...


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> The problem is that the batteries don't last long enough for electric cars to be practical. If they did, absolutely everyone would own one as electricity is waaaay cheaper per km than petrol. Way cheaper.




Tesla batteries will last about 700,000 kms, and by that time would have saved you about $75,000 so the batteries certainly last long enough to be very practical.

Not to mention that if in 15 years you need a new battery the will probably be much cheaper by then, and trading in your old battery for a new one for $10,000 that allows you to save another $75,000 doesn’t seem like a bad investment.


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2020)

Everyone parked on the street in Redfern. The idea we could put charger's everywhere is bunk. We had some in a local shopping centre that were vandalised in the first week. They were continued to be vandalised till they were removed.

I also know plenty of families with 3-5 cars and everyone works.

Then there is the specialist training that's required to maintain EVs along with parts. Just because a few wankers with Tesla's can wait a few weeks for a fix doesn't mean it scales into an economy of size.

If they sort the battery issue out I think EVs will begin to take. And as I understand it tesla is on that now. The battery is the key. If its cheaper and last longer between charges, then it will solve a lot of problems.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> did you watch the video?
> 
> the cord locks itself at both ends.
> 
> ...




OK; so we can also add these costs of manufacture, installation, and maintenance into our calculations.

We have to do this for residential streets/areas also I suppose. No doubt significant costs to move trees, work around narrow footpaths, and so on.


----------



## qldfrog (14 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think it will only be a matter of time before cars become a luxury, as they were 50 years ago, the roads will probably be ruled by autonomous ride share vehicles and public transport. Just my opinion



until the next virus, but the pauperisation of Australia might see this forecast be true anyway


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla batteries will last about 700,000 kms, and by that time would have saved you about $75,000 so the batteries certainly last long enough to be very practical.
> 
> Not to mention that if in 15 years you need a new battery the will probably be much cheaper by then, and trading in your old battery for a new one for $10,000 that allows you to save another $75,000 doesn’t seem like a bad investment.



Get back to us when you hit 300k. I've had trouble with battery cells before. They can last forever, or a month.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla batteries will last about 700,000 kms, and by that time would have saved you about $75,000 so the batteries certainly last long enough to be very practical.
> 
> Not to mention that if in 15 years you need a new battery the will probably be much cheaper by then, and trading in your old battery for a new one for $10,000 that allows you to save another $75,000 doesn’t seem like a bad investment.




OK; you have just read your own bedtime story now.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> did you watch the video?
> 
> the cord locks itself at both ends.
> 
> ...




Where are the UK going to get the energy from?

More windmills?


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> quick answer based on own example:
> as a hobby farm pool 2 freezers, electric oven and cottage with A/C fridge etc are big power users around 25kwh a day;
> that is the same as would be needed for 1 car to do 100km
> But we have 3 cars, when working each car just for commuting was doing a minimum of 50km and the guest at the cottage have a minimum 1 car doing a minimum 50km->4x50km
> ...



I have a 50kwh battery on my Tesla, and it get 400km on a battery, so 25 KWH for 200 kms seems a bit much.


----------



## qldfrog (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Where is the QLDFrog? Are we going to finish our exercise?



must have missed a post? a quick basic computation would required a doubling to tripling of my home consumption if moved to EV for own cars and cottage visitors, just for 50km a day drive per car, so no big travel or delivery  job..reproduce that along the street and we need a new infrastructure, even with slow chargers


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla batteries will last about 700,000 kms, and by that time would have saved you about $75,000 so the batteries certainly last long enough to be very practical.
> 
> Not to mention that if in 15 years you need a new battery the will probably be much cheaper by then, and trading in your old battery for a new one for $10,000 that allows you to save another $75,000 doesn’t seem like a bad investment.



Sorry by last I mean capacity - you can't do a day or weekend trip with the whole thing packed, kids, wife, towing the boat etc etc. 

The moment that range isn't an issue is the moment electric cars take over.


----------



## qldfrog (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Why couldn't we do that?



too busy a thread, by the time I do a few computations, even with the ignore on , posts have aged;
quick answer, even that simple solution would probably mean x 2 and most probably x3 at the very least your home consumption, and the suburban grid can not accept that , maybe even the last cable to your home if reproduced on every house and charged all in the evening when back from work;
also assume that you have your own garage which is getting rarer with the urban fill-in concept now favored by the greens!!
more with less


----------



## over9k (14 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> quick answer based on own example:
> as a hobby farm pool 2 freezers, electric oven and cottage with A/C fridge etc are big power users around 25kwh a day;
> that is the same as would be needed for 1 car to do 100km
> But we have 3 cars, when working each car just for commuting was doing a minimum of 50km and the guest at the cottage have a minimum 1 car doing a minimum 50km->4x50km
> ...






qldfrog said:


> too busy a thread, by the time I do a few computations, even with the ignore on , posts have aged;
> quick answer, even that simple solution would probably mean x 2 and most probably x3 at the very least your home consumption, and the suburban grid can not accept that , maybe even the last cable to your home if reproduced on every house and charged all in the evening when back from work;
> also assume that you have your own garage which is getting rarer with the urban fill-in concept now favored by the greens!!
> more with less




Not an issue unless you increase your PEAK consumption usage frog


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> too busy a thread, by the time I do a few computations, even with the ignore on , posts have aged;
> quick answer, even that simple solution would probably mean x 2 and most probably x3 at the very least your home consumption, and the suburban grid can not accept that , maybe even the last cable to your home if reproduced on every house and charged all in the evening when back from work;
> also assume that you have your own garage which is getting rarer with the urban fill-in concept now favored by the greens!!
> more with less




This has been going on all day, back and forth.

I will do more work on the exercise tomorrow, then we can adjust it once I have posted it.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Not an issue unless you increase your PEAK consumption usage frog




Where is the additional baseload coming from in the off-peak?

The sun isn't shining during the night, we have been shutting down baseload power stations, not building them.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> OK; you have just read your own bedtime story now.




The current Tesla battery pack is rated to between 480,000km and 800,000 km.

I thought you were researching? Shouldn’t you already know this stuff before you come out with such strong opinions.

the battery they are working on now will have a life over 1,600,000 km.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/the...le-barrier-and-the-implications-are-huge/amp/


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Where are the UK going to get the energy from?
> 
> More windmills?




solar, wind, Hydro, coal, gas, oil, Etc etc 

I thought we have been through this, you are like a gold fish.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> The current Tesla battery pack is rated to between 480,000km and 800,000 km.
> 
> I thought you were researching? Shouldn’t you already know this stuff before you come out with such strong opinions.
> 
> ...




480,000km and 800,000 km.

That is a massive gap!


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> solar, wind, Hydro, coal, gas, oil, Etc etc
> 
> I thought we have been through this, you are like a gold fish.




The sun isn't very bright in the UK.

Off-shore wind will compromise marine navigation.

Not much coal left in the UK.

North Sea oil is severely depleted.

Where is the Hydro?


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Sorry by last I mean capacity - you can't do a day or weekend trip with the whole thing packed, kids, wife, towing the boat etc etc.
> 
> The moment that range isn't an issue is the moment electric cars take over.




sure you can, the smallest Tesla battery (my one), will do over 400kms freeway driving on a charge, and along most routes their are Tesla superchargers.

I drive between Brisbane and Sydney regularly. You can drive from Adelaide of Melbourne all the way to cairns if you want there are fast chargers along the way.


----------



## qldfrog (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Those little recharge stations will be destroyed in a few months in Paris. Have you seen the riots that take place in Paris!



a given, i genuinely would like to see the live expectancy of such a power station, even more the cable.
People are stealing the copper of the cable  used to relay traffic data on Paris ring road,  imagine the amount of copper in these, 2 months before replacement at most, less than a day once shaddy networks are aware..


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> 480,000km and 800,000 km.
> 
> That is a massive gap!




Even the low end of 480k is ship loads more than the average person will ever put on Their car.

mans if you do put 480k on it, you would have saved about $50,000 in running costs.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> a given, i genuinely would like to see the live expectancy of such a power station, even more the cable.
> People are stealing the copper of the cable  used to relay traffic data on Paris ring road,  imagine the amount of copper in these, 2 months before replacement at most, less than a day once shaddy networks are aware..




100%. People chop those little recharge station power cords within the month.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> North Sea oil is severely depleted.
> 
> ?




yet you feel confident in sticking with petrol cars, hahaha

nice one lad.

atleast with electric we have so many other options.

At the end of the day if there is fuel for petrol cars, there is fuel for power stations, much much much more fuel due to the flexibility of tapping multiple sources, rather than a one trick pony like petrol.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Even the low end of 480k is ship loads more than the average person will ever put on Their car.
> 
> mans if you do put 480k on it, you would have saved about $50,000 in running costs.




I will buy a Ferrari California before I buy an electric car.


----------



## qldfrog (14 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Not an issue unless you increase your PEAK consumption usage frog



yes and no, if a street consumes 3 times more for each house, sooner or later the peak for the street will go higher by probably nearly 3x...time, event, weather..something will happen, we can not design grids like that


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I will buy a Ferrari California before I buy an electric car.



I thought you said we were running out of oil?

your cognitive dissonance is real, haha.

Have you checked it’s stats against a Tesla roadster 2020, the Ferrari is a bit slow.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> yet you feel confident in sticking with petrol cars, hahaha
> 
> nice one lad.
> 
> ...




Of course I will be sticking with petrol cars. I don't want to be waiting around at a recharge station for 30 mins, or having to set an alarm to plug-in for charging each night.

Why would I want to make my life more difficult. Technology is supposed to make your life easier.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I thought you said we were running out of oil?
> 
> your cognitive dissonance is real, haha.




I never said that we are running out of oil. The world is awash with it. What about all that shale in America; go ask over9k.


----------



## qldfrog (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I will buy a Ferrari California before I buy an electric car.



will probably buy an EV, but that is on own solar panels, own garage, and not working anymore 7 to 6 so no issue charging during the day before the coffee /shopping trip/mail run


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> will probably buy an EV, but that is on own solar panels, own garage, and not working anymore 7 to 6 so no issue charging during the day before the coffee /shopping trip/mail run




That is it, it is a lifestyle decision.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I thought you said we were running out of oil?
> 
> your cognitive dissonance is real, haha.
> 
> Have you checked it’s stats against a Tesla roadster 2020, the Ferrari is a bit slow.




What? Are you joking?


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I don't want to be waiting around at a recharge station for 30 mins, or having to set an alarm to plug-in for charging each night.
> 
> .




I have never done either of those things.

1, you plug your car in when you park it and walk away (instead of standing at the fuel pump and in a line to pay for 10mins)

2, and on road trips you plug your car in, go take a pee and get a drink and your car is done in like 15mins, no waiting


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> What? Are you joking?




about what?


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2020)

I think I read that the degradation of the battery was about 10% after 250000km. That was on a car that had done 655000km.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I have never done either of those things.
> 
> 1, you plug your car in when you park it and walk away (instead of standing at the fuel pump and in a line to pay for 10mins)
> 
> 2, and on road trips you plug your car in, go take a pee and get a drink and your car is done in like 15mins, no waiting




OK;

What about a Tesla electric helicopter?

Or a Tesla electric light aircraft?

Or a Tesla electric small submarine?

Or a Tesla electric boat?

Tell Elon to send me the check in the post!


----------



## sptrawler (14 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> will probably buy an EV, but that is on own solar panels, own garage, and not working anymore 7 to 6 so no issue charging during the day before the coffee /shopping trip/mail run



When the price comes down and if they can import and export from the house, they might make sense for a retired person, charge it during the day and run the house in the evening.
From what I've read, Nissan is obtaining certification, for the Leaf to be able to be used that way.

https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/vehicle_to_home.html


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I have never done either of those things.
> 
> 1, you plug your car in when you park it and walk away (instead of standing at the fuel pump and in a line to pay for 10mins)
> 
> 2, and on road trips you plug your car in, go take a pee and get a drink and your car is done in like 15mins, no waiting



Your situation is one of novelty. Charging two or three batteries would chug a lot of power. 

Out of interest can the tyres be changed at a regular tyre shop?


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> I think I read that the degradation of the battery was about 10% after 250000km. That was on a car that had done 655000km.




Sounds about right, but once you have to worry about that there will be a whole new generation of batteries, and 10% degradation is not much anyone.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> Your situation is one of novelty. Charging two or three batteries would chug a lot of power.
> 
> Out of interest can the tyres be changed at a regular tyre shop?




either way you chugging electricity or fuel and electricity is much cheaper.

sure, why wouldn’t you be able to get your tyres changed?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> either way you chugging electricity or fuel and electricity is much cheaper.
> 
> sure, why wouldn’t you be able to get your tyres changed?




Why don't you buy a Porsche Taycan? Trade in the Tesla.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 July 2020)

Let's turn the clock back 25 years to 1995.

I'll propose, in 1995, that by the time a child born today (1995) is working full time, the following will have become mostly or totally obsolete:

*Movie rentals. The format will first switch from VHS tapes to a completely new product known as a DVD but by 2020 the entire concept of video rental stores will be almost completely gone throughout the developed world. The stores will physically end up repurposed for completely unrelated activities, gyms being one of the more common uses.

*CD's and indeed any physical audio media will be purchased only by serious fans of that singer or band and their reason for purchase will be primarily for the sake of owning it rather than to actually listen to it. Casual listeners with only a passing interest will no longer purchase any physical audio at all.

*Newspapers will be a "legacy" product purchased primarily by older people. 

*Broadcast TV will be in a similar position to newspapers, with young people having only a limited interest in it.

Now if someone had said that 25 years ago they'd have been laughed at, the first question being what would replace them?

If you'd said they'd be replaced with computers then you'd have received more laughter. Do you seriously mean to tell me that ordinary households are all going to buy a computer, which costs a minimum of $2995 ($5300 in 2020 money adjusted for inflation) and comes with a tiny 14" screen and not very good audio and they'll use this to listen to music and watch movies? 

You've got to be joking. What next are you going to tell me? People will use these to do their banking with real money or something? Don't be silly, that won't happen. Just look at it! 10 million households, $3K each, that's $30 billion. Nah, we'll stick with newspapers and VHS for decades to come that's a given. 

Even if you did do this, the phone lines and exchanges aren't going to cope with everyone dialing up at once now are they? We'd have to build a completely new communications network in order to do it and that's going to cost $ billions. 

And yet here we are and we've not only done that, we've gone way beyond it to the point that we've now got a mobile communications network covering most of the population and pretty much every adult carries with them a powerful computer. Everyone in 2020 has more music and movies at their fingertips, literally in their pocket, than proper radio stations and cinemas had access to 25 years ago. 

The world changes yes and things get done. It takes time but when a better way comes along it sees adoption and progressively replaces what came before it.

Looking around my local area, I've literally no idea where I'd be able to rent a DVD now or if it's even still possible. The last of those kiosk type things has been removed from the shopping centre I normally use a few weeks ago and that's it, there's nothing left of that entire concept. Gone. 

Now let's come back to 2020 and go take a look outside. 

How many cars that are pre-1990 do you see in regular use?

Yep, we've replaced almost the entire car fleet over the past 30 years and we'll do it again in the next 30, indeed most of it turns over in a bit over 20 years. 

If the world goes with electric and/or hydrogen for vehicles well then that's what'll happen. Australia, a country with 25 million people and no significant vehicle manufacturing industry, sure isn't going to be the last holdout for the internal combustion engine if everyone else dumps it.

Just like there was no chance that Australia was going to stick with VHS tapes, to my understanding there isn't a single manufacturer still producing machines today, and there's hardly anywhere left on earth still using leaded petrol other than for niche purposes. Times change, technology evolves, people find a way to adapt.

I really don't understand the "can't be done" attitude of some here. In that regard I'll be polite but blunt - that approach is not a good way to get ahead in business as either an owner or employee. Even the public service tends to manage such people out eventually.

Those who profit from this (this is a sharemarket forum, right.....) will be the ones who spot the threats posed and the opportunities presented. They'll be offloading anything that's going to lose value before most have worked that out, and they'll be getting into the things of the future.

Most of the electricity companies have their foot in the door so far as EV's are concerned. Different approaches but they're taking a keen interest most certainly. Likewise the oil companies similarly realise that the future isn't going to be based primarily around selling petrol.

As with anything, it doesn't needs to be a one size fits all approach. It's not the end of the world if someone who really is driving from Adelaide to Perth recharges their EV at Border Village using power from the diesel generator. Just as it's not a problem if a small % of people are reliant on satellite internet. 

For the vast majority though, charging an EV isn't hugely problematic on the condition that we can avoid adding to peak demand which for most parts of the electricity network and overall supply chain is 6 - 7pm with some localised peaks at different times in a few locations. 

To the extent that EV's can be charged during the middle of the day, so roughly 10am - 3pm, then in some locations that extra load on the grid would be a benefit in itself and by no means a problem, very much the opposite. Lack of load at those times is already a pressing issue in SA with WA and ultimately Victoria heading the same way (and a fair chance that the NT will get there too). Not all EV's will charge during daytime of course, but some will and already there are active moves to encourage that by retailers, distributors and others.

Whichever way the rest of the world goes, ultimately Australia is going the same way be that electric, hydrogen or something else.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Why don't you buy a Porsche Taycan? Trade in the Tesla.




I like the Tesla self driving functions and the Tesla supercharger network.

As I said I drive Sydney to Brisbane quite a bit, and it’s pretty relaxing having the car drive itself for 2 or 3 hours at a time, and being able to supercharge along the way.

plus I have never been a real Porsche fan, I am not really a car guy, I just like the practically of the Tesla.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Let's turn the clock back 25 years to 1995.
> 
> I'll propose, in 1995, that by the time a child born today (1995) is working full time, the following will have become mostly or totally obsolete:
> 
> ...




I have a feeling if we went back to 1995 some one here would be saying video streaming live tv shows won’t work and VHS is the future. hahaha


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Let's turn the clock back 25 years to 1995.
> 
> I'll propose, in 1995, that by the time a child born today (1995) is working full time, the following will have become mostly or totally obsolete:
> 
> ...




We are talking about a global energy transition. Perhaps studying the whale oil to crude oil transition might get you in the right ball park.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I like the Tesla self driving functions and the Tesla supercharger network.
> 
> As I said I drive Sydney to Brisbane quite a bit, and it’s pretty relaxing having the car drive itself for 2 or 3 hours at a time, and being able to supercharge along the way.
> 
> plus I have never been a real Porsche fan, I am not really a car guy, I just like the practically of the Tesla.




So you are emotionally attached to the brand. Like people that drink Coca Cola.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> We are talking about a global energy transition. Perhaps studying the whale oil to crude oil transition might get you in the right ball park.



Hahaha, I think Smurf has more knowledge about energy systems in his little finger than you will ever have.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> So your emotionally attached to the brand. Like people that drink Coca Cola.




what part of enjoying the self driving features and easy charging locations made you think it was about brand ?

can a Porsche self drive for 3 hours?
Do Porsche have charging locations along Australia’s major highways?

for my purposes only a Tesla is suitable at the moment.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Hahaha, I think Smurf has more knowledge about energy systems in his little finger than you will ever have.
> 
> On that note I am going to say good bye and click that ignore button on you.




I don't think Smurf has studied either engineering or finance at university or ever worked in the industry or field; going off the posts.

Ignore me, that would be a blessing.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> what part of enjoying the self driving features and easy charging locations made you think it was about brand ?
> 
> can a Porsche self drive for 3 hours?
> Do Porsche have charging locations along Australia’s major highways?
> ...




And your purposes aren't the same as everybody else's in the country.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> And your purposes aren't the same as everybody else's in the country.




you are right only 99% of people are suited to EV’s.

anyway I have wasted far to much time talking to some one that doesn’t really want to learn.

I have to get back to my reading, which just so happens to be a 600 page book about the USA oil refining industry, I suggest you go do some actual research.

maybe go do some reading and test whether your opinions are supported by facts.


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> either way you chugging electricity or fuel and electricity is much cheaper.
> 
> sure, why wouldn’t you be able to get your tyres changed?



Are they just regular tyres readily available I should have said.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> you are right only 99% of people are suited to EV’s.
> 
> anyway I have wasted far to much time talking to some one that doesn’t really want to learn.
> 
> ...




Good, go educate yourself, then we can talk seriously about the electrical capacity that will be required for EVs moving forward.

I can recommend a few books for you to read if you like.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> Are they just regular tyres readily available I should have said.




Yeah. I am part of a Tesla group on face and a few guys have had to replace tyres, no one has said they had any issues, with replacement or repairs.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (14 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah. I am part of a Tesla group on face and a few guys have had to replace tyres, no one has said they had any issues, with replacement or repairs.




Do you own Tesla stock?


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Do you own Tesla stock?




 nope, unless it’s in the global index I have in my super, but outside of that not at all. (Unfortunately)


----------



## moXJO (14 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Let's turn the clock back 25 years to 1995.
> 
> I'll propose, in 1995, that by the time a child born today (1995) is working full time, the following will have become mostly or totally obsolete:
> 
> ...



I agree that we will indeed change. But don't forget the superior tech that fell to inferior products. Laserdisc, betamax, Intellivision was smashed by Atari.

I don't agree with: "not picking something apart". I want to know problems early. You identify a problem then you can profit with a solution.
And I can see a lot of problems.

As annoying as discussions like this seem, it does benefit others with identifying areas to investigate.

A question for you smurf

A hundred cars down a street in a small coastal town. All charging at the same time. Any problems or good to go?


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> We are talking about a global energy transition. Perhaps studying the whale oil to crude oil transition might get you in the right ball park.




Whales became more scarce, production peaked and prices went up in real terms. Then along came crude oil as the solution.

Today we see a similar pattern in that whilst we're not actually running out of oil, it most certainly is becoming more costly to obtain. We've had an oil price "crash" this year but the harsh reality is that the price today is still high by historic standards and that says all you need to know. 

We've gone from low tech wells on land which gushed vast amounts of oil under their own pressure to having to use hydraulic fracturing to extract dramatically smaller amounts of oil per well at higher cost. That there is the situation. We're not running out of oil but the most easily obtained oil is either gone or not available to the market due to politics etc and the cost of supply is increasing over time in real terms.

Hence we've seen oil mostly phased out for power generation, boiler fuel and so on. It's not zero but it has been in decline since the 1970's and in many countries is now at a very low level.

In the Australian context the NT and WA are the only states (ignoring the technicality that the NT isn't actually a state since that's irrelevant in the context) which are significantly reliant on oil for power generation. In the NT it's about 28%, in WA it's 6%, in every other state it's trivial.

Much the same in most countries. Go back to 1973 and oil was just over 22% of global electricity production, second only to coal, but there's very few places where it's the major source today. 

Most of those involved in all this take a pragmatic view not an ideological one. Economics drives decisions and as everyone knows, transitions take years and usually involve equipment being run to the end of its technical life and it's at the time of replacement that a new technology is applied. 

That's the likely scenario with cars. A point comes where new cars are electric or hydrogen, and it's only the older vehicles using petrol or diesel the use of which then gradually declines and ultimately goes to zero.


----------



## Value Collector (14 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> How much did the Tesla cost VC?




$79,000 you can get it for $70,000 but I took the self driving and paint upgrades. 

it’s a Tesla Model 3.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Whales became more scarce, production peaked and prices went up in real terms. Then along came crude oil as the solution.
> 
> Today we see a similar pattern in that whilst we're not actually running out of oil, it most certainly is becoming more costly to obtain. We've had an oil price "crash" this year but the harsh reality is that the price today is still high by historic standards and that says all you need to know.
> 
> ...




And in a decade or two, we may have electromagnetic propulsion vehicles. So lets just calm down on all the infrastructure spending with small scale recharge stations in residential streets and massive powerplant building.

There is still plenty of crude oil to last us for centuries.


----------



## moXJO (15 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> $79,000 you can get it for $70,000 but I took the self driving and paint upgrades.
> 
> it’s a Tesla Model 3.



That's not bad at all.
Might wait on the new battery.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> A hundred cars down a street in a small coastal town. All charging at the same time. Any problems or good to go?




That's a very "it depends" sort of situation.

All charging at 6pm on a hot or cold day = problem most certainly. Do it in too many towns and worst case we'll end up with very widespread blackouts.

All parked overnight and a smart approach is taken to have them charged by the morning, so that is charging steadily through the night rather than going flat out for a couple of hours and then nothing = very doable.

It's all a bit like road traffic itself or data networks. You could move a million cars though the Melbourne CBD no worries just so long as you're not trying to do it at time that's already busy and don't try and move them all at once. Do it steadily between 7pm and 6am though and it really won't matter.

Data's much the same. Someone could send a huge amount of data over the Telstra, Optus or any other network and so long as they're not doing it either all at once or during the existing peak periods then it won't be a problem. Send the huge volume steadily over the course of the off-peak hours and no issues.



moXJO said:


> As annoying as discussions like this seem, it does benefit others with identifying areas to investigat




We're on the same page.

I never get frustrated with questions, and there's no such thing as a silly question, but it can be frustrating when people don't accept the answers and won't seek alternative credible sources should they doubt my or anyone else's explanation of things which are proven as such.

For reference and noting the question has been raised, running diesel fuel in a modern power station built for diesel and intended for intermediate load operation will yield about 4.9 kWh per litre of fuel. That's actual specification data for a recently built facility in Australia. 

That can be raised to about 6.1 kWh / litre in a plant built for base load with the downsides of higher construction cost and far less flexibility in operation. In practice very few such facilities have been built using diesel for that reason - it's not normally a preferred fuel for base load due to cost.

A cheap and nasty but modern plant built at minimal cost will still get about 3.5 kWh / litre out of the same fuel. That's what would be built today as backup or peak load plant.

The worst power station in Australia, in terms of efficiency, doesn't normally run diesel but if it did then it would get about 2.1 kWh / litre. That's ancient technology and it's rarely run in practice - it does operate as backup plant on occasion when needed, generally for no more than a few hours at a time, but most weeks it doesn't even get started indeed some months it doesn't get a run. It still has a use as backup, since it's already built and a sunk cost, and with that level of use the fuel consumption isn't a real drama but nothing that inefficient would be built new today.

So if an EV needs 20 kWh to travel 100 km then if all that power came from diesel, and it came from a modern medium efficiency plant built for intermediate load following, then it works out to a bit over 4 litres / 100 km which beats most ICE vehicles.

In practice of course, the overwhelming majority of electricity doesn't come from diesel or other oil-based fuels and that's where the benefits arise.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's a very "it depends" sort of situation.
> 
> All charging at 6pm on a hot or cold day = problem most certainly. Do it in too many towns and worst case we'll end up with very widespread blackouts.
> 
> ...





Why not just relay all our major roads with piezoelectric materials, that feed back all the electricity into the grid?

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e5e/f90fb484010b209e847d490de1b06f9c64a2.pdf


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Why not just relay all our major roads with piezoelectric materials, that feed back all the electricity into the grid?
> 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e5e/f90fb484010b209e847d490de1b06f9c64a2.pdf




because perpetual motion machines don’t work.

Energy from the compressing of the road surface would be at the expense of excess drag being applied to to the vehicle slowing the vehicle down. 

just like driving over sand takes more energy than driving over concrete.

————
However again I don’t expect you to understand that, you seem to want to suggest any crazy scheme rather than admit one tried and tested existing technologies might be the solution.

hahaha, I really have to stop clicking “show ignored content” but your posts are just getting laughable.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's a very "it depends" sort of situation.
> 
> All charging at 6pm on a hot or cold day = problem most certainly. Do it in too many towns and worst case we'll end up with very widespread blackouts.
> 
> ...




You are trying to alter the behavior of people, human conditioning. Telling people when to and when not charge their cars.

The vast majority of electricity in Australia comes from coal and gas. So our Australian fossil fuel companies embrace electric vehicles, because they know that you aren't going to be able to do it without them. More fossil fuel powerplants will be built.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> because perpetual motion machines don’t work.
> 
> Energy from the compressing of the road surface would be at the expense of excess drag being applied to to the vehicle slowing the vehicle down.
> 
> ...




It isn't perpetual motion, it is electomagnetic. Same principle in maglev trains.

---------------

The materials are under the asphalt, What are you talking about. Do you even know what piezoelectric means? I never said that I agreed with it, I said what about it. Only a few pilot projects have been done to date.
-----------------
On the topic of compression; fluid is incompressible, that is why we have hydraulics.
---------------------
You are an excellent troll, good job over the last few days. You need a promotion.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> because perpetual motion machines don’t work.
> 
> Energy from the compressing of the road surface would be at the expense of excess drag being applied to to the vehicle slowing the vehicle down.
> 
> ...





What about putting flag poles on every street corner that generate electricity?


I say we just go nuclear.

Then we don't have to worry about your silly little electric cars and batteries, white-anting our grid, plunging us into meltdowns every week.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You are trying to alter the behavior of people, human conditioning. Telling people when to and when not charge their cars.




Nothing new about that.

The electricity industry has tried to do it since the 1890's and has been reasonably successful since the 1930's.

Airlines, suburban public transport, removalists, freight companies, cinemas, nightclubs, tourist resorts, builders and many others have all done it for a very long time and the basic concept is at the very heart of all markets. 

So do petrol retailers in most of Australia's cities via what's known as the price cycle.

The basic concept of trying to make better use of infrastructure or manage stock levels or workload by altering price is well established and nothing new.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Nothing new about that.
> 
> The electricity industry has tried to do it since the 1890's and has been reasonably successful since the 1930's.
> 
> ...




No; people aren't told when to turn on their lights at home, or told when to turn on their dishwasher, told when to turn on their TV, or told when to charge their mobile phones.

Charging a vehicle is a completely different story here.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> No; people aren't told when to turn on their lights at home, or told when to turn on their dishwasher, told when to turn on their TV, or told when to charge their mobile phones.
> 
> Charging a vehicle is a completely different story here.




Electric hot water heating times are "regulated" in some States I believe and that is a major load. Heaters are turned on by sending a signal down the power lines when the demand is low enough for heating to be efficient.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> No; people aren't told when to turn on their lights at home, or told when to turn their dishwasher, or told when to charge their mobile phones.




They are however increasingly given a price incentive to run the dishwasher and anything else that is not time critical at preferred times. That is, outside the peaks.

SA is the last state to do it and it's being done now. For the other states, they've all gone at least part way down the track of time of use pricing and it's no secret that ultimately the aim is to have everyone on it in due course. 

Then there's hot water, water pumping etc which has been managed that way for many decades to the point that the majority of such load is under control and has been so for years.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> They are however increasingly given a price incentive to run the dishwasher and anything else that is not time critical at preferred times. That is, outside the peaks.
> 
> SA is the last state to do it and it's being done now. For the other states, they've all gone at least part way down the track of time of use pricing and it's no secret that ultimately the aim is to have everyone on it in due course.
> 
> Then there's hot water, water pumping etc which has been managed that way for many decades to the point that the majority of such load is under control and has been so for years.




You can do what you like in SA; I don't care.

Just don't ask for Federal funds or help.

We better start moving our military/defence industry out of SA if you're in control.

Then you can basket case the state.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Electric hot water heating times are "regulated" in some States I believe and that is a major load. Heaters are turned on by sending a signal down the power lines when the demand is low enough for heating to be efficient.




Queensland and NSW use ripple control. That is, there's a signal sent over the power lines to switch the load. It's nothing new - it's literally 1950's technology.

Victoria it's either timers or remote control via the smart meter communications. Varies.

SA it's timers. There's a problem in that most of them are set to operate at a time which is no longer ideal, and changing them all is quite a task, but some efforts are underway there. Those installed in the past 2.5 years are remotely programmable via 4G communications but the rest need a site visit hence the issue.

Tasmania it's largely by limitation of input power, that is a regulatory approach, with some limited use of timers. That approach is somewhat unique to Tasmania and dates back a very long time, to the 1890's, and since it works well enough has become entrenched. A time based approach would be superior though and that's where the push is.

Some other approaches exist internationally. For example the UK switches electrical loads at the household level via a signal superimposed over BBC Radio 4. It's inaudible to human ears so no issue.

There's definitely opportunity in this space for innovation and financial gain for those who do it. Hence car makers looking at various approaches, hence why at least one electricity retailer is literally giving away some power for EV charging when it makes sense for them to do so, etc. 

If we can build the internet and so on then we can charge some batteries yes, indeed the existence of the internet opens up rather a lot of possibilities.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You can do what you like in SA; I don't care.
> 
> Just don't ask for Federal funds or help.




If you think SA doing something which every other state has already done is going to somehow wreck the SA economy then that's a rather interesting line of thinking.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> If you think SA doing something which every other state has already done is going to somehow wreck the SA economy then that's a rather interesting line of thinking.




Is it?

If we pulled our defence industry out of SA, you wouldn't have much. Perhaps it might be better to split the defence industry with WA, NSW and TAS and leave SA to do what they like.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Some other approaches exist internationally. For example the UK switches electrical loads at the household level via a signal superimposed over BBC Radio 4. It's inaudible to human ears so no issue.




Silly question. What if no one is listening to BBC Radio 4 ?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Silly question. What if no one is listening to BBC Radio 4 ?




Perhaps there is a potential capability to switch on every radio, mobile phone, and television device, which is connected to the internet, in everyone's home, to broadcast BBC 4; just from the push of a few buttons, from a central location.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Perhaps there is a potential capability to switch on every radio and television device, which is connected to the internet, in everyone's home; just from the push of a few buttons, from a central location.




Scary thought.  Switching on cameras, microphones etc. Has great possibilities for Orwellians.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Silly question. What if no one is listening to BBC Radio 4 ?




There's a device, a receiver, at the switchboard which is listening 24 hours a day.

Once it hears the signal, it switches power on / off as per what the signal's telling it to do. There's no audio sound being emitted by the receiver, it's not playing the radio as such, it's just sitting there silently listening for the signal to be broadcast which tells it to turn on / off.

Reception doesn't need to be perfect for it to work. It's only listening for an "on" or an "off" so it can't really go too far wrong. I don't know the detail of operation but they'd be sending out the signal more than once just to be sure - tell it to turn on, then tell it again a few minutes later just to make sure. etc.

Reason for doing it that way is that the BBC already has a very wide radio broadcast coverage so it was easy to just add the control signal to that existing radio transmission signal rather than setting up something separate.

As clarity for those not aware - Radio 4 is a radio station, the separate BBC stations are simply numbered 1, 2, 3 etc. Much the same as the ABC in Australia broadcasts various different stations under different names but the BBC chose to number theirs instead of naming them as such.

Most people living in the UK would presumably be completely unaware that it's done that way. Apart from those with a technical interest or employed in relevant work, there's no reason why anyone needs to know unless they're curious as to how it works etc.

The main thing being switched in practice is electric water heaters and less commonly storage space heaters. Same way that off-peak electricity is used in Australia.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Scary thought.  Switching on cameras, microphones etc. Has great possibilities for Orwellians.




I don't work in IT; however I could probably find someone that can do something like it. Not whole countries but a few select devices, haha.

I find IT boring to be honest, I started a network engineering course and didn't like it. I am more interested in Information Management.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Nothing new about that.
> 
> The electricity industry has tried to do it since the 1890's and has been reasonably successful since the 1930's.
> 
> ...




And you wouldn’t really have to alter a persons behavior, they will just still plug in when they get home and the find the car charged in the morning, they won’t care that the electricity company picked the exact minute or hour the car began charging.

the is already a charger you can buu called a “Zappi” charger that regulates the cars charging based on your solar production, people that only need the equivalent of 1 tank of petrol a week will be ok with irregular charging patterns if it means they save money or utilize their personal solar more.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Silly question. What if no one is listening to BBC Radio 4 ?




the equipment itself might be tuned into the signal.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

Here is the Zappi charger I mentioned.

it allows you to control how you want to charge your car.

the Eco+ setting means your car only charges when you have excess solar to send to it.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Have a good read folks: https://www.energynetworks.com.au/news/energy-insider/is-australia-ready-for-the-car-evolution/


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Also don't think the government will just let the fuel taxes vanish if there is a major move to EVs. Electricity is going to become a lot more expensive.

I think we have finished watching Alice In Wonderland; back to reality now.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Also don't think the government will just let the fuel taxes vanish if there is a major move to EVs. Electricity is going to become a lot more expensive.
> 
> I think we have finished watching Alice In Wonderland; back to reality now.




The subject of taxes on ev's has been discussed quite a bit in this thread.

I think you are right, new taxes on EV's will be on the way, in fact I think that's why the silence is deafening from this government on the subject of ev's.

Remember Michalea Cash and the ute killing EV's ?


https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...l-of-utter-shamelessness-20190409-p51ch8.html


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> The subject of taxes on ev's has been discussed quite a bit in this thread.
> 
> I think you are right, new taxes on EV's will be on the way, in fact I think that's why the silence is deafening from this government on the subject of ev's.
> 
> ...




Not sure if you had time to read the article that I posted from the peak industry body. This is a real beauty:

"KPMG’s Victorian analysis shows if 100 per cent uptake of battery EVs occurs by 2046, total electricity consumption will increase by about 50 per cent. In a scenario where EV drivers are exposed to price incentives to discourage peak charging, the modelling shows required additional generation capacity of 12,669 MW – 120 per cent of existing installed capacity of the Victorian system. In a non-incentivised scenario, an extra 15,513 MW is needed."

Haha, my assumptions aren't so bad after all.

Definitely EV taxes; no way in the world the government are going to leave a massive fuel tax black hole.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> And you wouldn’t really have to alter a persons behavior, they will just still plug in when they get home and the find the car charged in the morning, they won’t care that the electricity company picked the exact minute or hour the car began charging.




Indeed, it can certainly be made to work.

There's a few different approaches being taken by the industry at present:

Some are going with really cheap pricing at specific times. Red Energy (one of the retail brand names of Snowy Hydro) and Powershop have both used that approach. No change to the metering as such, but you get a really cheap period the times of which are fixed and the intent is that's when you charge the EV. Obviously they'll be collecting data to see what consumers actually do in practice. 

AGL tried an "all you can eat" approach. Flat monthly charge for an EV, not charging directly for the electricity as such. So the same concept as mobile phone or broadband internet pricing. As part of that separate metering has been installed.

There's another significant player in the industry (I won't name them since it's not publicly announced but it's a familiar name not a startup company) very much looking at "EV charging as a service" which would work exactly as you describe. You just plug it in, they work out when to charge it but you'll have a "charge now" option at a premium price for atypical usage scenarios.

So quite a few are looking at it yes.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Indeed, it can certainly be made to work.
> 
> There's a few different approaches being taken by the industry at present:
> 
> ...




EVs at the moment are really just little toys that drain significant electricity.

As the KPMG analysts have estimated in Victoria, the serious challenges of electrical capacity are too great for these little toys to be rolled out across Victoria.

When you get the electrical capacity in place, then we can have a proper discussion and start taxing EVs to make up for the fuel tax difference.


----------



## over9k (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Not sure if you had time to read the article that I posted from the peak industry body. This is a real beauty:
> 
> "KPMG’s Victorian analysis shows if 100 per cent uptake of battery EVs occurs by 2046, total electricity consumption will increase by about 50 per cent. In a scenario where EV drivers are exposed to price incentives to discourage peak charging, the modelling shows required additional generation capacity of 12,669 MW – 120 per cent of existing installed capacity of the Victorian system. In a non-incentivised scenario, an extra 15,513 MW is needed."
> 
> ...



Not saying that the report is bull****, but how do they come to that "incentivised vs unincentivised" figure? And how does 50% more demand need 120% more capacity? 

And more capacity in the system can be dealt with by the current infrastructure, at what point does the current infrastructure start to creak & need upgrading?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Not saying that the report is bull****, but how do they come to that "incentivised vs unincentivised" figure? And how does 50% more demand need 120% more capacity?
> 
> And more capacity in the system can be dealt with by the current infrastructure, at what point does the current infrastructure start to creak & need upgrading?




Capacity Factor of the windmills .

Remember it was the Victorian government that asked KPMG to do the study! 

My rough assumptions are not bad considering it only took me a few minutes, haha.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Not saying that the report is bull****, but how do they come to that "incentivised vs unincentivised" figure? And how does 50% more demand need 120% more capacity?
> 
> And more capacity in the system can be dealt with by the current infrastructure, at what point does the current infrastructure start to creak & need upgrading?




Mate; I think I would take the word of a team of KPMG analysts, with their report being reviewed and published by the peak energy industry association in Australia ; rather than people that don't know what they are talking about like Smurf, Basilio and Value Collector.

It's over, over9k. I win and my assumptions weren't that bad after all.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Mate; I think I would take the word of a team of KPMG analysts, with their report being reviewed and published by the peak energy industry association in Australia ; rather than people that don't know what they are talking about like Smurf, Basilio and Value Collector.
> 
> It's over, over9k. I win and my assumptions weren't that bad after all.




Some of the people you mentioned might know more about what they are talking about than you think.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Some of the people you mentioned might know more about what they are talking about than you think.




If so, they clearly haven't shown it here.
I would have thought that they would be embarrassed now knowing this information.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Some of the people you mentioned might know more about what they are talking about than you think.



Mate, they were pretty rude and nasty to me. When my assumptions weren't that bad from the start.

Validation can be bitch when you're on the wrong side. My assumptions were OK; we are dealing with TWs of electrical capacity and trillions of dollars in the USA for 100% EVs. 

In fact why not just use the KPMG figures, which have been reviewed and published by the Australian energy peak association, as rough estimate for other states and nations; just to get a rough idea!


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Definitely EV taxes; no way in the world the government are going to leave a massive fuel tax black hole.



This was posted up a while back in this thread.

https://www.caradvice.com.au/862164/nsw-government-considers-electric-car-usage-tax/


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This was posted up a while back in this thread.
> 
> https://www.caradvice.com.au/862164/nsw-government-considers-electric-car-usage-tax/




Not sure I was here then. But have a read of the article I posted from the Australian energy peak association publishing the KPMG figures for Victoria. Looks like I was right all along Sprawler.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This was posted up a while back in this thread.
> 
> https://www.caradvice.com.au/862164/nsw-government-considers-electric-car-usage-tax/




A lot of work for hackers there, winding back the clocks.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> A lot of work for hackers there, winding back the clocks.



They can also hack Tesla vehicles and make them run red lights, drive them into walls.


----------



## over9k (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Mate; I think I would take the word of a team of KPMG analysts, with their report being reviewed and published by the peak energy industry association in Australia ; rather than people that don't know what they are talking about like Smurf, Basilio and Value Collector.
> 
> It's over, over9k. I win and my assumptions weren't that bad after all.



Don't be prickly. I've never been so with you.

I've also been trained to do those cost-benefit analyses. I know just what garbage in (and therefore garbage out) they get. They have a lot of assumptions built into them - the assumptions on which the final result is determined.

I asked the questions for a reason. There's a guy here that literally runs a power station for a living. This is not as simple as just pumping some numbers into a massive spreadsheet.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Don't be prickly. I never was with you.
> 
> I've also been trained to do those cost-benefit analyses. I know just what garbage in (and therefore garbage out) they get. They have a lot of assumptions built into them - the assumptions on which the final result is determined.
> 
> I asked the questions for a reason.



See yah later then. I know it's difficult to face reality once you have been brainwashed.


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Not sure I was here then. But have a read of the article I posted from the Australian energy peak association publishing the KPMG figures for Victoria. Looks like I was right all along Sprawler.



I think everyone is on the same page, just reading it differently, smurf knows the electrical system, VC knows the electric cars and you know it is all going to take a long time and cost a lot of money.
But I think that everyone knows it will happen, whether we like it or not, there is no loss to the Government.
Infrastructure is built, new technology is developed, old infrastructure gets replaced, it all means more work and more money circulating.
Electric vehicles, have the added advantage of replacing all the old vehicles, with cars that will be very easy to monitor and fit control measures to.
The only thing that will limit their uptake, will be price and upgrading the electrical infrastructure to support them.
Most of Australia's population live in major cities, so if the price is right a lot will buy them.
As Rumpy says hybrids will be the choice for country drivers, same as it is already for taxi drivers, that leaves a sadly lacking infrastructure problem with aging coal fired power stations which smurf has pointed out endlessly.

Which takes us back, to the nuclear/gas or renewables debate, where we started.


----------



## over9k (15 July 2020)

trawler - what kind of bump in off-peak electricity usage (let's go really off peak here, like between midnight & 6am) could we have before we need to start upgrading the grid and/or stations? 

as far as I'm aware, increases in off peak change absolutely nothing?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think everyone is on the same page, just reading it differently, smurf knows the electrical system, VC knows the electric cars and you know it is all going to take a long time and cost a lot of money.
> But I think that everyone knows it will happen, whether we like it or not, there is no loss to the Government.
> Infrastructure is built, new technology is developed, old infrastructure gets replaced, it all means more work and more money circulating.
> Electric vehicles, have the added advantage of replacing all the old vehicles, with cars that will be very easy to monitor and fit control measures to.
> ...



Good luck trying tell these people that we will need nuclear.



over9k said:


> Don't be prickly. I've never been so with you.
> 
> I've also been trained to do those cost-benefit analyses. I know just what garbage in (and therefore garbage out) they get. They have a lot of assumptions built into them - the assumptions on which the final result is determined.
> 
> I asked the questions for a reason. There's a guy here that literally runs a power station for a living. This is not as simple as just pumping some numbers into a massive spreadsheet.






over9k said:


> trawler - what kind of bump in off-peak electricity usage (let's go really off peak here, like between midnight & 6am) could we have before we need to start upgrading the grid and/or stations?
> 
> as far as I'm aware, increases in off peak change absolutely nothing?



If you bothered to read the article it explains the peak and off-peak demand factoring in the required electrical capacity with the scenarios of incentives vs no incentives.

Furthermore you don't have a clue about my engineering and finance background.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think everyone is on the same page, just reading it differently, smurf knows the electrical system, VC knows the electric cars and you know it is all going to take a long time and cost a lot of money.
> But I think that everyone knows it will happen, whether we like it or not, there is no loss to the Government.
> Infrastructure is built, new technology is developed, old infrastructure gets replaced, it all means more work and more money circulating.
> Electric vehicles, have the added advantage of replacing all the old vehicles, with cars that will be very easy to monitor and fit control measures to.
> ...



I believe it all will be solved as was the introduction of motor cars to New York around the beginning of the last century by a different take on the problem.

_The *great horse manure crisis of 1894* is a notion in urban planning which stated that the greatest challenge of further urban development was a difficulty of removing horse manure from the streets. More broadly, it is an analogy for supposedly insuperable extrapolated problems being rendered moot by the introduction of new technologies. The phrase originates from a 2004 article by Stephen Davies entitled "The Great Horse-Manure Crisis of 1894".[1][2]

The supposed problem of excessive horse-manure collecting in the streets was solved by the proliferation of cars which replaced horses as the means of transportation in big cities. The term great horse manure crisis of 1894 is often used to denote a problem which seems to be impossible to solve because it is being looked at from the wrong direction.
_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_horse_manure_crisis_of_1894

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I believe it all will be solved as was the introduction of motor cars to New York around the beginning of the last century by a different take on the problem.
> 
> _The *great horse manure crisis of 1894* is a notion in urban planning which stated that the greatest challenge of further urban development was a difficulty of removing horse manure from the streets. More broadly, it is an analogy for supposedly insuperable extrapolated problems being rendered moot by the introduction of new technologies. The phrase originates from a 2004 article by Stephen Davies entitled "The Great Horse-Manure Crisis of 1894".[1][2]
> 
> ...



The more I think about it, batteries and plugging your car in at an electricity point is very 20th Century. 

I'll go for a brainier solution when it does come along. 

gg


----------



## over9k (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Good luck trying tell these people that we will need nuclear.
> 
> If you bothered to read the article it explains the peak and off-peak demand factoring in the required electrical capacity with the scenarios of incentives vs no incentives.
> 
> Furthermore you don't have a clue about my engineering and finance background.




Yes and the reaction to those incentives is a complete assumption - people could react very differently to what's assumed.

When my uni prof was teaching us this stuff I even asked him what we did with inputs that we simply couldn't possibly know the number(s) for and his words were, and I'm quoting him verbatim:

"In that situation, you ask the client for the figure they want you to use".


You do not need to spend a fortune upgrading a grid for an increase in off-peak demand. If you did, the internet would have collapsed this year as a result of everyone working from home during the day (which is OFF PEAK) in response to coronavirus. 

Hence why you could quite literally plug five million electric cars (or their equivalents, literally kettles) in to charge between midnight & 6am and the grid wouldn't even squeak. 

The calcs you've linked are assuming a big (or slightly less big under the "incentivised" option) increase in PEAK demand, which are utter bull**** assumptions anyways. Fix the peak demand increase problem and you remove the necessity to upgrade the grid. Like, at all.


----------



## over9k (15 July 2020)

Oh and just in case you're wondering, you can actually pay to have your connection upgraded to 15 (or more) amp or 3 phase for just a few grand. An utterly trivial expense compared to the money you'd save over decades of having an electric car. 

So there's a free market/non-taxpayper-funded solution already.


----------



## rederob (15 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I believe it all will be solved as was the introduction of motor cars to New York around the beginning of the last century by a different take on the problem.
> 
> _The *great horse manure crisis of 1894* is a notion in urban planning which stated that the greatest challenge of further urban development was a difficulty of removing horse manure from the streets. More broadly, it is an analogy for supposedly insuperable extrapolated problems being rendered moot by the introduction of new technologies. The phrase originates from a 2004 article by Stephen Davies entitled "The Great Horse-Manure Crisis of 1894".[1][2]
> 
> ...



I am training people to walk ahead of EVs with flags to warn unsuspecting folk of their presence, seeing they are silent vehicles and therefore dangerous.
I believe millions of new jobs can be created.


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> You do not need to spend a fortune upgrading a grid for an increase in off-peak demand. If you did, the internet would have collapsed this year as a result of everyone working from home during the day (which is OFF PEAK) in response to coronavirus.
> 
> Hence why you could quite literally plug five million electric cars (or their equivalents, literally kettles) in to charge between midnight & 6am and the grid wouldn't even squeak.
> 
> The calcs you've linked are assuming a big (or slightly less big under the "incentivised" option) increase in PEAK demand, which are utter bull**** assumptions anyways. Fix the peak demand increase problem and you remove the necessity to upgrade the grid. Like, at all.



The problem with plugging in 5 million electric cars between midnight and 6am at the moment is, most of the overnight generation comes from fossil fuel, so our emissions would sky rocket. 
The greenies would have kittens.
That is where it all becomes a case of staged introduction and why it will all take quite some time.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Yes and the reaction to those incentives is a complete assumption - people could react very differently to what's assumed.
> 
> When my uni prof was teaching us this stuff I even asked him what we did with inputs that we simply couldn't possibly know the number(s) for and his words were, and I'm quoting him verbatim:
> 
> ...




Well I have already got a top ranking university and a multi-million dollar corporation that are in the same ball park as me; as far as electrical capacity and costs are con


over9k said:


> Yes and the reaction to those incentives is a complete assumption - people could react very differently to what's assumed.
> 
> When my uni prof was teaching us this stuff I even asked him what we did with inputs that we simply couldn't possibly know the number(s) for and his words were, and I'm quoting him verbatim:
> 
> ...




Go ask your mate Peter the geostrategist, maybe he can talk some sense into you.

Well, the only people that agree with you are just a few posters here.

Not enough for governments or nations to listen to you. They listen to entities like KPMG, who conduct studies for them.

Also you aren't the only person who has been to uni. I have studied at 3 of them.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (15 July 2020)

Anyway, I have a few things to do. I will pick this back up tomorrow.


----------



## over9k (15 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with plugging in 5 million electric cars between midnight and 6am at the moment is, most of the overnight generation comes from fossil fuel, so our emissions would sky rocket.
> The greenies would have kittens.
> That is where it all becomes a case of staged introduction and why it will all take quite some time.




Nah man remember that it's way more efficient to burn fossil fuels in a power station than a car. The greenies would get on board.



Chronos-Plutus said:


> Well I have already got a top ranking university and a multi-million dollar corporation that are in the same ball park as me; as far as electrical capacity and costs are con
> 
> 
> Go ask your mate Peter the geostrategist, maybe he can talk some sense into you.
> ...




You really need to calm down.

I'm trying to make two points to you: Firstly, that this number-crunching you've listed, no matter who it's from or what it tells you, has a tremendous amount of utterly unknowable assumptions built in. How do you know how the market's going to react to a change in price before you change the price? You can't. Ergo, no matter what something like this says, it's BS.

I would be saying the same thing if the conclusion was the opposite and I have no doubt there's something done out there that says that electric vehicles make sense etc etc. It will be just as BS as anything else done in the same way. I have DONE these things myself. 


The other thing is that you're not interpreting it or what I'm saying correctly. It's actually saying the same thing that I have been saying all along - that it is the increase in PEAK demand that is the problem. I've been saying this the whole time!

I'm in total agreeance that an increase in peak demand would need an infrastructure buildout. That's not even a matter of opinion - it's physics. What I'm saying to you is that if we have a way to minimise (or eliminate) that increase in peak demand then we thus eliminate the need for the infrastructure buildout. Hence why I keep talking about charging the cars overnight, not at 7 in the evening.


----------



## rederob (15 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with plugging in 5 million electric cars between midnight and 6am at the moment is, most of the overnight generation comes from fossil fuel, so our emissions would sky rocket.
> The greenies would have kittens.
> That is where it all becomes a case of staged introduction and why it will all take quite some time.



First, we all know EV take-up will be incremental, so the cats are safe from Tom.
Second, there are 7 days in a week.  Two of those days don't have the industrial load of weekdays.  They are also the days when most people won't be driving to work, so the midnight to 6am recharge period is not going to be a big deal.
Third, EVs will be able to get signals from the grid and be able to charge when energy is cheapest: in future with high PV penetration that could be late morning/early arvo, while wind penetration might not  need curtailment.
Too many here have the old mentality of energy generation and consumption.  In years to come "systems" will be in place to talk to energy hungry appliances and do the best deal.
In the interim Australia needs to get the technical and grid infrastructure in place to make the inevitable road ahead less bumpy.
(edit: the "peak demand" issue is resolved by EVs communicating with the grid to feed back if and when necessary.)


----------



## over9k (15 July 2020)

Doesn't even need to be that complex to get something working right now rob: Just put a timer on the charger like people do with those timers that go between the device & the powerpoint to turn a lamp or something on & off at particular times of day.


----------



## rederob (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Doesn't even need to be that complex to get something working right now rob: Just put a timer on the charger like people do with those timers that go between the device & the powerpoint to turn a lamp or something on & off at particular times of day.



Agreed. But I am not talking about what is easy today.
As renewable penetration increases the pricing/load arrangements in place now will change significantly - am thinking ahead.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Anyway, I have a few things to do. I will pick this back up tomorrow.



Thank you so much for sparing your valuable time and sharing your ideas with the rest of us here on ASF on Electric cars. I will be able to tell my descendants that I once shared a comment thread with you. 

I believe you to be as brilliant as you do and am much in admiration of you. 

From a previous post you said you have moved sideways from what appears to have been a fitter and turner which is an admirable trade (and one pursued by many of my friends) to being from reading between the lines a real estate agent for technology. 

I should warn you to stay away from dealing with .... in your pursuit of .....  

You sound as if you know what I was going to say so I won't waste type on it anyway.

Do please pick it up tomorrow if you can spare us the time. It is riveting. The etymology of the word "rivet" is from Middle Dutch "wriven" to turn or grind then having been a fitter and turner you probably know that. 

I do hope that my interjection in to your undoubted brilliance does not take away from your flow tomorrow. The word "flow" which you would know is from Old High German flouwen "to rinse, wash". 

Which is now what I must do with the dishes as we have just had a power blackout here at Casa Gumnut.

gg


----------



## over9k (15 July 2020)

I bet the power grid could use the internet to communicate with your car somehow already. As soon as you get to your house the car autoconnects to the wifi and talks to the grid that way. 

There's no way that the tech heads couldn't figure something out.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Doesn't even need to be that complex to get something working right now rob: Just put a timer on the charger like people do with those timers that go between the device & the powerpoint to turn a lamp or something on & off at particular times of day.




you don’t even have to do that, you can schedule charging times from the Tesla app on your phone, or from the screen on the car.

I have mine scheduled for 9.30am because that is the time my solar exports start to get limited to 5kwh so if I am not using the excess my panels are idled back.


----------



## over9k (15 July 2020)

So now all we need is for a way for the grid to communicate with the car & we're golden. 

I hear there's this thing called the "internet" which might be a way to do it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> irstly, that this number-crunching you've listed, no matter who it's from or what it tells you, has a tremendous amount of utterly unknowable assumptions built in. How do you know how the market's going to react to a change in price before you change the price? You can't. Ergo, no matter what something like this says, it's BS.




Agreed. There's a good reason why quite a few generation and retail companies, including those which are ASX listed and run to profit shareholders, have offered consumers heavily discounted home batteries on the condition that the company can monitor them.

Everyone accepts that theory and practice may well be different. So putting real batteries in real homes and seeing what actually happens is the way to find out for certain. In order to get that done before the idea becomes mainstream, and to know who's doing it, various companies and governments have had to spend some money.

Whilst that's for home batteries not EV's, the same basic issues apply. There's theory and there's practice. Hence just about every relevant company has at least some EV's in their own company car fleet, there's a conscious effort via retail plans etc to identify which customers have an EV and see how that affects their consumption in practice and so on.

The relevant companies all have their own experts both economic and technical but everyone understands that practice may well be different to theory and that identifying what consumers actually do under a given set of circumstances is important.

Same applies to any new technology, practice often differs from theory. As just one random example of that, pretty much nobody would have predicted 30+ years ago that a DJ would turn up carrying a laptop computer but no records. There are countless such examples - the way a new technology is used in practice often isn't what most expected.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 July 2020)

I still believe that Electric cars will be superseded by some other form of clean transport. The take-up from concept to the present small percentage of vehicles reminds me of steam being unable to supersede horses. The lag time to general uptake will be way too long for electric. 

Something else will replace the internal combustion engine as the latter did horses. And all the electric car companies will disappear.

gg


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> trawler - what kind of bump in off-peak electricity usage (let's go really off peak here, like between midnight & 6am) could we have before we need to start upgrading the grid and/or stations?
> 
> as far as I'm aware, increases in off peak change absolutely nothing?



Smurf could give you exact figures, but when I was working, we had to take units off overnight and back on again for the morning load.
So as you say, it would have no effect IMO, it would actually help the system, as taking steam units off and on is inefficient and also causes more wear and tear.
The big issue as smurf has said, is the excess of generation during the middle of the day, when solar is really pumping.
The problem with electric cars in Australia at the moment IMO, apart from purchase cost and lack of charging infrastructure, is people tend to use their cars during the day.
This has been a problem for years in Australia, millions of cars on crowded roads, with one person in each.
If the car could be left at home charging during the day, then discharging a percentage over the evening peak, so there is still enough for the next day if it is required to be used.
Then the system could maybe designed to accommodate it, e.g I'm retired so I really only have a car for convenience, so I can use public transport or a pushbike, so I may elect to allow the car to be discharged to 50% capacity.
Someone else who may need their car available, may elect not to allocate any to the grid, I'm sure the technology is already available to do this, so it is just a matter of time before it is introduced.
We are at the very beginning of some very big changes and it all has to balance, when fossil fuel no longer is used in power generation. 
Overnight will be using storage, so there probably would be a penalty for charging the car, as I said lots of changes coming that will take many steps.
I would be surprised if many people have a car in 50 years time, my guess would be autonomous ride share vehicles and public transport, especially in cities.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I still believe that Electric cars will be superseded by some other form of clean transport. The take-up from concept to the present small percentage of vehicles reminds me of steam being unable to supersede horses. The lag time to general uptake will be way too long for electric.




I'm unconvinced but I certainly acknowledge that a solution other than electric could end up being the one adopted. 

Hydrogen, synthetic fuels, whatever. There's a lot of sharp minds working on it etc.

Also it's possible we could see a combination. Eg what's used for buses might end up being completely different technology to what's used in cars for example. With a bus you can fit things under the floor or on the roof that you can't really do with a car in terms of physical space etc.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Smurf could give you exact figures, but when I was working, we had to take units off overnight and back on again for the morning load.
> So as you say, it would have no effect IMO, it would actually help the system, as taking steam units off and on is inefficient and also causes more wear and tear.
> The big issue as smurf has said, is the excess of generation during the middle of the day, when solar is really pumping.




A picture paints a thousand words as they say. 

SA is furthest down the track so that's the state I've picked, no other reason. 

Yellow = solar 
Green = wind
Orange = gas
Red = liquid fuels (diesel etc)
Purple = import from Victoria
Anything below the zero line = export from SA to Victoria

Data resolution is 30 minutes. So 48 data points per day.

This is for the past 3 days to now:


----------



## SirRumpole (15 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Smurf could give you exact figures, but when I was working, we had to take units off overnight and back on again for the morning load.
> So as you say, it would have no effect IMO, it would actually help the system, as taking steam units off and on is inefficient and also causes more wear and tear.
> The big issue as smurf has said, is the excess of generation during the middle of the day, when solar is really pumping.
> The problem with electric cars in Australia at the moment IMO, apart from purchase cost and lack of charging infrastructure, is people tend to use their cars during the day.
> ...



I would have thought that normal car usage is drive to work, park, then drive home in the afternoon. So if people could charge during the day, like in the carpark then that would balance the load when solar output is going to waste.

Rainy days would be the problem though.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 July 2020)

Here are some for other states:

Black = coal
Orange = gas
Blue = hydro
Red = oil-based fuels
Green = wind
Yellow = solar
Purple = import from other states
Below the zero line = export to other states

Note that Queensland data excludes the Mt Isa region which has its own completely separate power system. 

Data for all states excludes small remote towns with their own generators etc.


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I would have thought that normal car usage is drive to work, park, then drive home in the afternoon. So if people could charge during the day, like in the carpark then that would balance the load when solar output is going to waste.
> 
> Rainy days would be the problem though.



Yes for sure where that is available, like I said there will be lots of changes and ideas, the trick is to capture the excess renewable generation and feed it back in when there is no renewable generation.
Until that can be done reliably, for an extended time period of no or limited renewable generation, some form of at call backup will still be required.


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2020)

One thing this virus has shown, is that even with a major lockdown of people, life goes on. Those who had to travel for work, or essential services did, those who could work from home did so.
The thing I noticed was how few cars were on the roads, so if we extrapolate all this out, there is every possibility that most wont need to travel to work in 50 years.
Therefore the few that do will have vehicles, the rest will probably be easily serviced by a fleet of ride share vehicles and a 24 hour public transport service.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (15 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I would have thought that normal car usage is drive to work, park, then drive home in the afternoon. So if people could charge during the day, like in the carpark then that would balance the load when solar output is going to waste.
> 
> Rainy days would be the problem though.



Looking at the uptake of Electric vehicles in China it is split between mass (people) transport, cargo and then owner vehicles. Only 3 million vehicles in total 2018, last figures I could find. That is a minuscule uptake.

I have visited places where people work in the Arnage and they drive, park, go in to work, return to the park and drive home. They all seem so bothered it may be too much to ask them to hook up to a powerpoint.

Electric would be ideal for trams, buses, trains and trucks. Not for the individual punter.

gg


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Looking at the uptake of Electric vehicles in China it is split between mass (people) transport, cargo and then owner vehicles. Only 3 million vehicles in total 2018, last figures I could find. That is a minuscule uptake.
> I have visited places where people work in the Arnage and they drive, park, go in to work, return to the park and drive home. They all seem so bothered it may be too much to ask them to hook up to a powerpoint.
> Electric would be ideal for trams, buses, trains and trucks. Not for the individual punter.
> gg



Every country will be different IMO, but in Australia we are changing a lot, generation to generation.
When I was a kid in the 60's early 70's, the family had one car which dad took to work, mum walked or caught a bus and we had one family holiday a year usually with the car.
That was because dad did a 40hr week plus usually a Saturday, they couldn't afford a second car and air travel was just out working peoples reach.
By the way we lived in country towns in W.A

Then in the late 70's and 80's when I started a family, cars became cheaper the 38 week came in and wages improved, and we used the car a lot more for holidays and had several driving holidays in a year.
In the late 80's and 90's air travel started getting cheaper, but it was still cheaper to drive across Australia with a family of 6.

Now no one would drive across Australia, on the grounds of cost, it is far cheaper to fly.
So the car really is only used for local commuting, unless of course you live in the country and have to travel a long distance, to get to the shops or work.
If you lived in a city, or a major town with public transport and you worked from home, how much do you really require a car, other than for convenience?

With regard charging, I would think eventually you will just have an inductive charger in the floor of the garage and it is all done automatically. Like charging the phone.
Just a thought


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Haha, my assumptions aren't so bad after all.
> 
> .




Your assumptions were terrible, and the fact that you can’t see that the KPMG report doesn’t at all prove your assumptions is laughable.

let me walk you through your errors and show you why they don’t line up with KPMG.

1, Your calculations were based on if we went 100% EV today in 2020 However KPMG is talking about the year 2046, that’s 26 years away, their numbers factor in growth in the market, which by itself would require expansion, so ofcourse we are going to require more capacity in the future if electrical demand in general grow with the population and we have more cars on the road.

2, Your calculations were based on just the gasoline/petrol market, KPMG is including diesel, so your gasoline only numbers are way off KPMG’s numbers.

3, I actually also think KPMG have made a similar mistake you have, by not adding back the energy savings of not having to refine oil, this could be because Australia imports more finished product these days, and also because refineries often have their own generators so their electricity usage doesn’t always come from the grid.

but either way the oil and gas that would have to flow into refineries if we were to stay petrol powered could easily be converted into electricity, it takes next to no time to installl gas and oil fired capacity.

4, the installed capacity of Personal solar Systems will naturally grow over the next 26 years and a lot of people’s charging will never even be drawn from the grid.

As I said I have to charge my car other wise the grid actually idles back my panels, but as the grid gets smarter renewables won’t be idled back.


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## sptrawler (15 July 2020)

I just read this, and it is another example of how changes that are happening, could be used to streamline charging of electric vehicles.
https://www.theage.com.au/business/...ds-book-supermarket-slot-20200715-p55c87.html
From the article:
_Risk-averse shoppers will be able to monitor the foot traffic at their local supermarket or book a time slot to jump the queues as Woolworths unveils its latest measures to control the spread of COVID-19_.

The same app could be used to book a charge point in the carpark, the shopping centre could have solar on the roof and it becomes another shopper reward programme.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm unconvinced but I certainly acknowledge that a solution other than electric could end up being the one adopted.
> 
> Hydrogen, synthetic fuels, whatever. There's a lot of sharp minds working on it etc.
> 
> Also it's possible we could see a combination. Eg what's used for buses might end up being completely different technology to what's used in cars for example. With a bus you can fit things under the floor or on the roof that you can't really do with a car in terms of physical space etc.




it’s possible, but what ever comes to replace EV’s has to be just as efficient as EV’s which are highly efficient while also being able to exploit as many different energy sources as the EV can.

I mean electricity is a pretty good at exploiting all the traditional energy resources, and a lot of the renewables of the future.

synthetic fuels are going to come too, but I think that’s giving to be for planes and rockets and every thing else that’s not suited to electricity.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Not for the individual punter.
> 
> gg




Electric cars are great, I there is no way I would even go back to a petrol car.

I have rented a few petrol cars while on holiday since I have had my Tesla and a hate it.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I bet the power grid could use the internet to communicate with your car somehow already. As soon as you get to your house the car autoconnects to the wifi and talks to the grid that way.
> 
> There's no way that the tech heads couldn't figure something out.




My car does exactly that, connects to WiFi when I am at home and it has its own mobile connection when I am out.


----------



## Value Collector (15 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The more I think about it, batteries and plugging your car in at an electricity point is very 20th Century.
> 
> I'll go for a brainier solution when it does come along.
> 
> gg




you can just have a wireless charging pad in your garage if you are really against plugging in.

But I think plugging in a home and charging from solar panels on the roof is for more 21st century, 

if anything 20th century is having trucks loaded with flammable liquids traversing out freeways, so we can go out of our way to bowsers, and stand there for 5 - 10mins breathing in toxic fumes while we pumps these flammable liquids, and then we drive off dumping toxic exhaust directly into our cities air.


----------



## sptrawler (15 July 2020)

Nissan to add an SUV, to join the Leaf, in its EV lineup.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/moto...v/news-story/2c810af96b4930cdc3fe5763df498b43
From the article:
_As with the Nissan Leaf hatchback, the new model features “vehicle to grid” electrical hardware capable of keeping a home’s lights on during a blackout, or pumping excess energy into the grid to earn money or energy credits during periods of peak demand.

There are four power levels ranging from 160kW and 300Nm to 290kW and 600Nm, along with 65kWh or 90kWh battery packs_.

That is a very good size home battery and a pretty good looking car, now about the price.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Your assumptions were terrible, and the fact that you can’t see that the KPMG report doesn’t at all prove your assumptions is laughable.
> 
> let me walk you through your errors and show you why they don’t line up with KPMG.
> 
> ...



My numbers were just a calculation that took me a few minutes just to get a rough idea. The KPMG analysts validated my concerns, the Australian energy peak association reviewed and endorsed it.

That puts your opinion in the nonsense category, and I am not entertaining it any longer. Enjoy your discussion with Smurf on installing the recharge stations in Adelaide.

This case is closed for me, no more of my time is going to be wasted on this thread.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Nah man remember that it's way more efficient to burn fossil fuels in a power station than a car. The greenies would get on board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You can spend more time on this. This case is closed for me. My concerns were validated by KPMG analysts and the Australian energy peak association reviewed and endorsed it.

That is good enough for me to now move on and focus my time on more rewarding information and knowledge.

You can carry on with Smurf and Value Collector in their fantasy.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> This case is closed for me




The case might be closed for you but rest assured that rather a lot of companies, with individual market caps in the $ billions, aren't seeing the same problems.

Nobody's still using one of these, right?




Times change, technology moves on, things get done, society progresses. If people want to listen to classical music or whatever from hundreds of years ago then sure, no problem with that, but a time will come where internal combustion engines are about as common as acetylene lamps are today. Not very.


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## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thank you so much for sparing your valuable time and sharing your ideas with the rest of us here on ASF on Electric cars. I will be able to tell my descendants that I once shared a comment thread with you.
> 
> I believe you to be as brilliant as you do and am much in admiration of you.
> 
> ...



My concerns were validated by the KPMG analysts and the Australian peak energy association reviewed and endorsed their position with publication. The case is closed for me now. That is the main thing. So now it is prudent to focus my time on stocks and other themes. Thank you for your acknowledgement, I think I can provide a stronger contribution to the forum in other areas of financial discussion now.

I am a man that has vast interests, this electric vehicle discussion can have a rest for a while. 

I can see why the UK weren't happy with the EU dictating energy policy


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> The case might be closed for you but rest assured that rather a lot of companies, with individual market caps in the $ billions, aren't seeing the same problems.
> 
> Nobody's still using one of these, right?




I don't care Smurf. The case is closed for me and you carry on with what you like, it makes no difference to me. These companies must convince their shareholders, I will not be one of their shareholders and our government will not be creating zombie corporations.


----------



## Value Collector (16 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> My numbers were just a calculation that took me a few minutes just to get a rough idea. The KPMG analysts validated my concerns, the Australian energy peak association reviewed and endorsed it..




No, as I pointed out KPMG’s numbers are for the year 2046, after years of population growth, and they include diesel.

Your claims were based 2020’s population and were only 

Your assumptions were well off.

Also, If I listened to KPMG’s opinion I would be $2 Million poorer right now.

if you look back at the FMG thread from 2016 I bet big against KPMG’s opinion on Iron Ore when FMG was $3 a share, today it’s $16.

But yeah, feel free to trust a bunch of accountants who write reports for the highest bidder among any lobbyists or industry group that wants to sway government opinion in a certain direction.

KPMG only care about earning consultancy fees, and will write any report you want them too.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No, as I pointed out KPMG’s numbers are for the year 2046, after years of population growth, and they include diesel.
> 
> Your claims were based 2020’s population and were only
> 
> ...




It's over. I have more important things to look at now. I am comfortable with the validation from KPMG.


----------



## Value Collector (16 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I don't care Smurf. The case is closed for me and you carry on with what you like, it makes no difference to me. These companies must convince their shareholders, I will not be one of their shareholders and our government will not be creating zombie corporations.




If there is going to be huge amounts of demand for electricity that results in higher utilization rates of assets from paying customers, why wouldnt you want to be a shareholder in those companies.

I mean if we thought that by 2046 demand for Coca-Cola was going to be 120% higher, and more coke factories would need to be built, Coca-Cola shares would be a great investment.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> If there is going to be huge amounts of demand for electricity that results in higher utilization rates of assets from paying customers, why wouldnt you want to be a shareholder in those companies.
> 
> I mean if we thought that by 2046 demand for Coca-Cola was going to be 120% higher, and more coke factories would need to be built, Coca-Cola shares would be a great investment.



The peak energy association in Australia endorsed KPMGs report with publication.

It's over. The peak energy association represents industry and big business. My concerns were validated, we need to build an enormous amount of electrical capacity and it is going to come at a great cost.

I have nothing more to say. I have more important things to look at. Like actual stock analysis.


----------



## Value Collector (16 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> The peak energy association in Australia endorsed KPMGs report with publication.
> 
> The peak energy association represents industry and big business.




And you don’t think these groups have their own agendas and lobbyists and reasons to commission such reports???

anyway once again you can not semi to see the details of where you are wrong, you read headlines and assume it proves your point, without seeing the differences between what you are saying and what the actual report says.

hahaha, good luck with your stock analysis, you will need it, don’t trust KPMG reports when it comes to that either, other wise you will be sitting with those Fmg shorters who’s lunch I ate.


----------



## over9k (16 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> It's over. I have more important things to look at now. I am comfortable with the validation from KPMG.



Then you're making a major mistake. You don't even appear to understand the difference between peak & off-peak consumption and its relationship with power generation & infrastructure.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> And you don’t think these groups have their own agendas and lobbyists and reasons to commission such reports???
> anyway once again you can not semi to see the details of where you are wrong, you read headlines and assume it proves your point, without seeing the differences between what you are saying and what the actual report says.
> 
> hahaha, good luck with your stock analysis, you will need it, don’t trust KPMG reports when it comes to that either, other wise you will be sitting with those Fmg shorters who’s lunch I ate.




This is why there is a stock market. You invest in what you like, I will invest in what I like.

You don't have to subscribe to my opinion, and I don't have to subscribe to yours.

I can accept and reject what information I like, and you can accept and reject what information you like.

Trade and invest according to your own research, homework, and beliefs; or seek advice from a financial advisor/accountant.


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## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Then you're making a major mistake. You don't even appear to understand the difference between peak & off-peak consumption and its relationship with power generation & infrastructure.




I understand it and KPMG have addressed it in their report.

The vast majority of electrical capacity over the last decade has been solar and wind in Australia, to support day supply and demand. Coal and gas stations have been closing down.

The sun doesn't shine at night, wind capacity factor is ~30%; baseload capacity at night/off-peak is no where near enough to cover the electrical capacity gap required. Our network infrastructure and capacity was never designed for peak supply at night. Thus, all the installed capacity that will be required as highlighted in the KPMG report.

I am not chasing red herrings, it is over. I have more important projects and endeavours to focus on.

Reject the report and information if you wish, I don't care. Stay in this echo chamber with Smurf and Value Collector, I am moving on with more fruitful endeavours.


----------



## over9k (16 July 2020)

Ok. You have someone that owns a tesla and solar panels, someone that's been trained to do cost-benefit analyses, and even someone that used to run a power station trying to tell you that there is a bit more to this than just punching numbers into a spreadsheet, but ignore us if you wish.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Ok. You have someone that owns a tesla and solar panels, someone that's been trained to do cost-benefit analyses, and even someone that used to run a power station trying to tell you that there is a bit more to this than just punching numbers into a spreadsheet, but ignore us if you wish.






over9k said:


> Ok. You have someone that owns a tesla and solar panels, someone that's been trained to do cost-benefit analyses, and even someone that used to run a power station trying to tell you that there is a bit more to this than just punching numbers into a spreadsheet, but ignore us if you wish.




I will take the word of a team of KPMG analysts who were given access to Victorian energy data and information; paid to carry out a study by the Victorian government; had their research reviewed and endorsed by the peak energy association who represents big business. Also Sydney University have published a paper claiming it will cost Australia hundreds of billions.

This all reinforces my own preliminary opinions. My opinions based on studying at 3 Universities and working for 5 multinational corporations; within the fields of engineering and finance.

And you expect me to just disregard all this and believe some guy that owns a Tesla, some person called Smurf that copies and pastes from AEMO and tells me to invest in companies that install mini recharge stations in residential streets; and yourself who claims to be some sort of economic analyst.

Wake up to yourself mate. Sprawler and I are probably on the same page; however he is more accommodating to people who are trolls and post nonsense on their fantastic uptopia.


----------



## over9k (16 July 2020)

Ok, suit yourself.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Ok, suit yourself.




As I said also; suit yourself in what information you want to accept.

I never needed your input from the start when I have access to expert opinion to validate and reinforce my own educated and informed opinion.


----------



## sptrawler (16 July 2020)

Jeep Wrangler to be available as plug in electric, that should help sneak up on those nude sunbathers.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/jeep-teases-plug-in-hybrid-wrangler-4xe-123917.html?trackLink=SMH2


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (16 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Jeep Wrangler to be available as plug in electric, that should help sneak up on those nude sunbathers.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/jeep-teases-plug-in-hybrid-wrangler-4xe-123917.html?trackLink=SMH2




Does the Wrangler hybrid charge its battery with petrol, like the Lexus hybrids.


----------



## moXJO (16 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Jeep Wrangler to be available as plug in electric, that should help sneak up on those nude sunbathers.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/jeep-teases-plug-in-hybrid-wrangler-4xe-123917.html?trackLink=SMH2



Jeep, God I'd rather put wheels on my toaster.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Also Sydney University have published a paper claiming it will cost Australia hundreds of billions.




Over the next 20 years we'll spend ~$500 billion to purchase replacement petrol or diesel light vehicles and we're currently spending around $20 billion a year on petroleum fuels so yes, it's going to cost $ billions that's a given. Then there's the cost of running service stations, maintaining the cars and so on.

How to spend those $ billions is the question.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Over the next 20 years we'll spend ~$500 billion to purchase replacement petrol or diesel light vehicles and we're currently spending around $20 billion a year on petroleum fuels so yes, it's going to cost $ billions that's a given. Then there's the cost of running service stations, maintaining the cars and so on.
> 
> How to spend those $ billions is the question.




You won't be spending those billions, that's for sure. Spend your own money.


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## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

I think I will find a few more reports today on the electrical capacity requirements and costs.

That way no-one needs to rely on a few socialists/communists here claiming to have expertise .


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Over the next 20 years we'll spend ~$500 billion to purchase replacement petrol or diesel light vehicles and we're currently spending around $20 billion a year on petroleum fuels so yes, it's going to cost $ billions that's a given. Then there's the cost of running service stations, maintaining the cars and so on.
> 
> How to spend those $ billions is the question.




Not in your lifetime. We aren't going for the green new deal, like the Democrats in the US. It's OK, keeping voting for the Greens, they will never get into power.


----------



## rederob (17 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I think I will find a few more reports today on the electrical capacity requirements and costs.
> 
> That way no-one needs to rely on a few socialists/communists here claiming to have expertise .



A number of people posting here get their information from the people providing input to decision makers.
You need to drop your campaign of belittlement as it does you no favours.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

rederob said:


> A number of people posting here get their information from the people providing input to decision makers.
> You need to drop your campaign of belittlement as it does you no favours.




I can see that there are people here that probably have strong ties and connections to the Greens Party or the radical Left of the Labor Party.

I am clearly outnumbered. In fact I am probably the only conservative posting on this thread. It is against human rights to discriminate and bully on the basis of political ideology


----------



## rederob (17 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I can see that there are people here that probably have strong ties and connections to the Greens Party or the radical Left of the Labor Party.
> 
> I am clearly outnumbered. In fact I am probably the only conservative posting on this thread. It is against human rights to discriminate and bully on the basis of political ideology



Keep your points on topic and try to back your case/proposition/argument with sound reasoning, sources, links, or references.
Using "culture war" tactics just shows posters to be bereft in their claims.  Stop falling into that trap.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Keep your points on topic and try to back your case/proposition/argument with sound reasoning, sources, links, or references.
> Using "culture war" tactics just shows posters to be bereft in their claims.  Stop falling into that trap.



I did; I presented a report from KPMG; then we had people lose their minds because it didn't agree with their perception. People started claiming that they are experts and the report is nonsense.

It's pathetic and political. It is what the Greens and the hard Left do when they are presented with facts.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I did; I presented a report from KPMG; then we had people lose their minds because it didn't agree with their perception. People started claiming that they are experts and the report is nonsense.




Every report like that which predicts what 'might' happen makes a lot of assumptions about future events which may or may not be correct. They also say what the sponsors of the report want them to say.

I'm not going to argue the specifics because I'm not an expert, but to expect that what consultants say is absolutely correct is foolish, because someone else can hire another group of consultants that come up with something completely different based on their own or their client's assumptions which may or may not be correct.


----------



## over9k (17 July 2020)

rederob said:


> A number of people posting here get their information from the people providing input to decision makers.
> You need to drop your campaign of belittlement as it does you no favours.



That ship has long sailed. He's even like it with the people like myself who WEREN'T snarky etc with him. I at least attempted to have a polite conversation, but nope.


----------



## rederob (17 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I did; I presented a report from KPMG; then we had people lose their minds because it didn't agree with their perception. People started claiming that they are experts and the report is nonsense.
> 
> It's pathetic and political. It is what the Greens and the hard Left do when they are presented with facts.



I have followed the thread.
A lot needs to be done to support renewables' continuing integration into the grid, and a lot will need to be done to get the energy balance right to support high EV penetration into the future.
Your linked paper presents the challenges to be overcome in order to be successful over 25 years from now. 
Let's look at solar PV:


For all intents and purposes the market never took off until incentivised about 10 years ago.  The funny thing is, strongest growth has occurred *after *FIT made ROI a lot less desirable.  Who would have predicted that? KPMG?
The point I am leading to is that we are in a very dynamic market, and major additions to energy supply no longer take years in planning and decision making before construction and subsequent supply.
The bigger challenges today relate to getting government decision makers to *actually decide on the path to be taken* as it is constraining the grid's ability to adapt to the future.


----------



## over9k (17 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> someone else can hire another group of consultants that come up with something completely different based on their own or their client's assumptions which may or may not be correct.



Or even assumptions which they know will produce a certain conclusion


----------



## rederob (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> That ship has long sailed. He's even like it with the people like myself who WEREN'T snarky etc with him. I at least attempted to have a polite conversation, but nope.



It can be hard for some to stop "playing the man," even well after Joe has recently posted his warning in a number of threads.
It's always interesting when @Smurf1976's practice of attempting to be even handed, fails!
Try to keep adding good and relevant information here and we can Vulcanise the the thread so it will "live long and prosper."


----------



## over9k (17 July 2020)

DOUBT.jpg


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## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Every report like that which predicts what 'might' happen makes a lot of assumptions about future events which may or may not be correct. They also say what the sponsors of the report want them to say.
> 
> I'm not going to argue the specifics because I'm not an expert, but to expect that what consultants say is absolutely correct is foolish, because someone else can hire another group of consultants that come up with something completely different based on their own or their client's assumptions which may or may not be correct.




I would have responded earlier, but my phone battery went flat.

Like I said; the report was carried out by a respectable entity who specialise in accounting and economics. The report was asked to be conducted by the Victorian government. KPMG has a fiduciary responsibility to their clients. The peak energy association reviewed the report and published it.

Now people can try to discredit the report as much as they like, because they don't agree with the facts. That is fine, however I am a person that works with facts, not people claiming that they are experts and that they think the report is nonsense or based on corrupt practice, which would be illegal.

Rest assured Sir Rumple; in time I will find more reports that the Greens and hard Left of the Labor Party, will not like; in which case they will just claim the weak and pathetic assumption line/excuse once again.


----------



## over9k (17 July 2020)

Ah yes, because if it's illegal, it never happens. 

Just ask all of those "independent third parties" that for some reason just always come to the conclusion that someone (usually someone that gives them a lot of business) wants them to. 

I even tried explaining how they do it, but nah, take it as gospel. 


Let me ask you something: If I found a report that said the complete opposite to that KPMG one, what would you say?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Or even assumptions which they know will produce a certain conclusion




Yeah; why don't you find a report to back up your own assumptions. Rather than just taking the lazy option and taking cheap shots.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Ah yes, because if it's illegal, it never happens.
> 
> Just ask all of those "independent third parties" that for some reason just always come to the conclusion that someone (usually someone that gives them a lot of business) wants them to.
> 
> ...




Like I said, most people would be believe a KPMG report that was reviewed by the peak energy association.

But hey; I suppose you don't know much about peak industry bodies in Australia or expert consultancy work.


----------



## over9k (17 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Yeah; why don't you find a report to back up your own assumptions. Rather than just taking the lazy option and taking cheap shots.



Because I am arguing with someone that will not even so much as acknowledge anything I say. I could link you anything, absolutely anything, and I'm sure you'd say yours is more credible or some such BS.

My whole point from the start was that these reports are not indicative of reality/are total horseshit and not how any decision should be nor is ever made. They are created to provide the excuse that the powers that be need to do or not do something that they either want or do not want to do.

I've done them myself. You fail to understand that the "experts" are expert BULLSHITTERS.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

rederob said:


> It can be hard for some to stop "playing the man," even well after Joe has recently posted his warning in a number of threads.
> It's always interesting when @Smurf1976's practice of attempting to be even handed, fails!
> Try to keep adding good and relevant information here and we can Vulcanise the the thread so it will "live long and prosper."




Yes, please keep on encouraging those that just dismiss credible reports to produce something credible themselves, rather than claiming that they are experts themselves!


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Because I am arguing with someone that will not even so much as acknowledge anything I say. I could link you anything, absolutely anything, and I'm sure you'd say yours is more credible or some such BS.
> 
> My whole point from the start was that these reports are not indicative of reality/are total horseshit and not how any decision should be nor is ever made. They are created to provide the excuse that the powers that be need to do or not do something that they either want or do not want to do.
> 
> I've done them myself.




You need to back up your own assumptions and opinion. You need to find credible information and references.

Didn't they teach you this at university?

Don't they expect this of you at work?


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## over9k (17 July 2020)

What you are failing to understand is that stuff like this cannot be determined by punching numbers into a spreadsheet. There's, you know, a little bit more to it.

What you're also failing to understand is that any report I linked you saying the opposite would ALSO not have any credibility.


The idea that a grid needs to have billions of dollars spent on it to enable an increase in demand for OFF PEAK power quite literally violates the laws of physics. Your very own report even points out that the buildout is needed because of an assumed increase in PEAK power demand. Nobody's arguing against that! In fact, we've all been saying precisely that from the beginning!

I'll state this flatly to you: An increase in PEAK power demand that comes as a result of electric cars would need an electricity generation and grid improvement/spend, just like KPMG say.

There, is that what you wanted to hear?


Why do you think I & everyone else have been saying that the key is how to move the demand to OFF PEAK and talking about how do to it?

What I am trying to say to you is that you have been arguing against a point that hasn't been made. You have misunderstood what people have been saying to you. Nobody disputes that an increase in peak demand = infrastructure spend. What we're saying is that if you can move the increase in demand to off peak, you don't need to undertake said infrastructure spend.

KPMG's report assumes an increase in peak demand. That is the very assumption I was talking about which results in the final conclusion. Remove that assumption, and you remove the necessity for the infrastructure spend. I don't know how else I can put this to you.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> What you are failing to understand is that stuff like this cannot be determined by punching numbers into a spreadsheet. There's, you know, a little bit more to it.
> 
> What you're also failing to understand is that any report I linked you saying the opposite would ALSO not have any credibility.
> 
> ...





Where is your credible sources and references?

Your words mean little. Don't you see how I post?

I write what I have to say, I quote and then I reference. This is just basic stuff that is expected when studying at university and when writing professional reports.

If you wish to be taken seriously by people, you need to find credible sources and references to support your assertions, claims, allegations, and opinions.


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## over9k (17 July 2020)

I actually facepalmed reading that. My entire post, entire point, everything, clean over your head. I'm not disputing the kpmg conclusion ffs, I am disputing the assumption on which it is made. 

But if you want to go down that road: If you approached 99% of business owners telling them they should be making business decisions based on "credible sources" and "references" and academic reports etc they would actively laugh at you, just like I am now.

Investment decisions are not made on what can be proven, they are made on what is believed to be true. These are rarely the same thing. Even if we ignore that inconvenient little truth, your report "proves" absolutely nothing other than an increase in peak demand needs an increase in infrastructure spending, which nobody is even disputing. 

I just don't know how else I can put this: Nobody's disputing the conclusion, they're disputing the assumption on which it is made.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I actually facepalmed reading that. My entire post, entire point, everything, clean over your head. I'm not disputing the kpmg conclusion ffs, I am disputing the assumption on which it is made.
> 
> But if you want to go down that road: If you approached 99% of business owners telling them they should be making business decisions based on "credible sources" and "references" and academic reports etc they would actively laugh at you, just like I am now.
> 
> ...




Well; if you want to go around to businesses, and just tell them to believe you and take your word for it, I think that they would be laughing at you actually.

Now, if you're disputing the assumptions. State your reason and provide credible sources and references to support your challenge of the assumptions.

I am amazed that you find it strange that you are being asked to provide credible sources and references for your own claims that the assumptions are wrong. Really, this is just high school stuff.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I actually facepalmed reading that. My entire post, entire point, everything, clean over your head. I'm not disputing the kpmg conclusion ffs, I am disputing the assumption on which it is made.
> 
> But if you want to go down that road: If you approached 99% of business owners telling them they should be making business decisions based on "credible sources" and "references" and academic reports etc they would actively laugh at you, just like I am now.
> 
> ...




I think that you also forgot that the peak energy association of Australia, who represents big business, reviewed, supported and endorsed the KPMG assumptions publicly!

Who are you to challenge the KPMG assumptions without credible sources and references?


----------



## basilio (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> What you are failing to understand is that stuff like this cannot be determined by punching numbers into a spreadsheet. There's, you know, a little bit more to it.
> 
> What you're also failing to understand is that any report I linked you saying the opposite would ALSO not have any credibility.
> 
> ...




Some good points Over9k but on any analysis we will need to build more energy infrastructure to support a mass movement to EV. Certainly the management of  when vehicles  will be charged will be critical and timing this across the off peak times will be essential.

Smurf noted elsewhere that with strong solar production during daylight hours EV charging during the day to use this power would be an important option.

On every analysis Australia will be renewing its power systems massively in the next 30 years. Coal fired power stations are reaching the end of their operating life.  Economically and environmentally solar, wind, pumped hydro and battery systems (with others ?)  offer the most appropriate engineering mix to power a decentralised society. Their build costs are cheaper and the running costs are also far cheaper. Its a no brainer.

It will also result in substantial financial savings for the community. 

http://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/publications/assets/100renewables.pdf
https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2020/mar/renewable-energy-investment-in-australia.html
https://reneweconomy.com.au/new-report-shows-100-renewable-by-2030-can-save-australia-money-93765/


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## over9k (17 July 2020)

I've never said to take my word for it - I've said this is my word and this is why it is my word. Yet another lack of understanding.

I also don't need to provide "credible sources" and "references" in order to be right. Some things simply cannot be empirically demonstrated to be true OR false. Yet another thing you fail to understand.


The KPMG report assumed a particular increase in peak demand, and then assumed a particular lower increase in peak demand based on a particular pricing structure which assumes a particular demand elasticity.

NONE of which can be proven or even reliably estimated, which is what I've been trying to say to you all along. They have simply ASSUMED these increases and elasticities. 

But ignoring that completely, there's more than just kpmg's single solitary instrument to move (some of) the demand from peak to off peak. In other words, they've made an estimate using just ONE method. I.e there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Hence why everyone else are saying "yeah but if you did B and C and D and E as well, then the peak demand would drop even more".

KPMG's report does not factor in doing B and C and D and E as well. It only factors in A.


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## sptrawler (17 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Some good points Over9k but on any analysis we will need to build more energy infrastructure to support a mass movement to EV. Certainly the management of  when vehicles  will be charged will be critical and timing this across the off peak times will be essential.
> 
> Smurf noted elsewhere that with strong solar production during daylight hours EV charging during the day to use this power would be an important option.
> 
> ...



Good summation Bas, one thing I will say, the excess solar during the day has to not only charge the cars, it has to fill the pumped storage and standby batteries. That is why we will need so much.


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## over9k (17 July 2020)

We don't have to use solar to charge them. Power stations are much, much, much more efficient use of fossil fuels than internal combustion engines.

Why do everyone keep thinking the only way to charge an electric car is with solar or wind generated electricity?

That's not to say it can't be used, but it's not the only way.


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## basilio (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> We don't have to use solar to charge them. Power stations are much, much, much more efficient use of fossil fuels than internal combustion engines.
> 
> *Why do everyone keep thinking the only way to charge an electric car is with solar or wind generated electricity?*
> 
> That's not to say it can't be used, but it's not the only way.




The point we are making over9k is that  there will be huge changes in our power generation systems in the next 30 years. On all economic, environmental and decentralization questions  the replacements will not be coal (or nuclear..) Wind and solar will be the mainstays with pumped hydro and batteries balancing the system.

For the short term coal fired power stations can indeed recharge EVs during off peak periods. And has been noted this will help balance the  current power systems and allow the stations to run more efficiently with less cycling.


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## over9k (17 July 2020)

Sure, I get that there's going to be renewable energy etc. What I'm saying is that it has nothing to do with electric cars when the current grid can charge them. Literally nothing. It's just not a precondition for electric cars to make sense.


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## over9k (17 July 2020)

The key to making electric cars work without a massive infrastructure buildout is getting them charged either off grid or at off-peak hours.

As best I can tell, solar's the only way for the average punter to do it off grid. That's a discussion that can be had, but as far as I can tell, current tech is uneconomical, and there are some places it will never make financial sense.

But off peak charging already has a whole stack of different ways it can be accomplished - if we want an idea of whether electric cars are ever really going to become a thing, we should be thinking about if (and if so, how) we can get the general populace charging them off-peak.

As best I can tell, we can do this right now with either home batteries (which themselves charge off peak) that you plug the car into and fast charge it any time, or with easily installed beefier connections like 15 amp circuits or 3 phase power, which are on types of timers/controllers which only charge the car off peak.

If I'm right, then the only thing stopping electric cars becoming ubiquitous right _now_ is battery life of the car itself, i.e the ability to use it for purposes other than just as a commuter.


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## Chronos-Plutus (17 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I've never said to take my word for it - I've said this is my word and this is why it is my word. Yet another lack of understanding.
> 
> I also don't need to provide "credible sources" and "references" in order to be right. Some things simply cannot be empirically demonstrated to be true OR false. Yet another thing you fail to understand.
> 
> ...





I have quotes from Sydney Uni and KPMG, then I have added in my own assumptions on top. They are calling it in the 10s of billions, I reckon easily above 100 billion for a 100% EV uptake to ensure a fully functional and productive society.

You can do what you like.

Anyway, I got more important things to do. See Ya


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## qldfrog (17 July 2020)

The terrible thing is that the way chronos mismanaged it is that even valid points become rubbish
While we agree that offpeak is the time to load, we should also acknowledge that 25kwh consumption between 6pm and 7am per household will not be easy to handle and off peak will not remain off peak gor long, then green energy will be useless unless storage
Ideally recharge car 10am to 2pm
But that will not happen for the majority.
Yes it will be s very expensive exercise, yes appartment and off street parking will be screwed
But it is manageable as long as the change is gradual
I live 27km from brisbane cbd, i i ha to have sat internet and people 1km from my place have no mobile service at all.we are 2020, mobiles are 20y+ old...
I doubt Australia will be to the task of having a proper infrastructure for ev but as long as not mandated it is not a problem


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## over9k (17 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I have quotes from Sydney Uni and KPMG, then I have added in my own assumptions on top. They are calling it in the 10s of billions, I reckon easily above 100 billion for a 100% EV uptake to ensure a fully functional and productive society.
> 
> You can do what you like.
> 
> Anyway, I got more important things to do. See Ya



You quite literally do not even understand the very report on which you are staking your claim.

Even if their figures were reliable (and I have explained why they are not), they are still not even using them to say what you think they are.


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## bux2000 (17 July 2020)

And I thought an FI Hybrid was a selectively breed Tomato Plant



All the best 
bux


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## Smurf1976 (18 July 2020)

over9k said:


> The idea that a grid needs to have billions of dollars spent on it to enable an increase in demand for OFF PEAK power quite literally violates the laws of physics.




Looking at NSW, Vic, SA and Tas combined, as of right now:

*All hydro generation in NSW and Vic is off. In Tas about 30% of available capacity is running with heavy southbound flow on the Tas - Vic interconnector. There's no hydro of significance in SA.

*200 MW of hydro pumping load is on in NSW.

*All diesel / kero plant in NSW and SA is off completely. There's none in Vic or Tas other than as fuel backup in gas-fired plant.

*All gas-fired plant in NSW, Vic, Tas is off completely.

*SA gas-fired plant is running at the minimum technically safe configuration for system strength. That has 1 x CCGT (one gas turbine + one steam turbine) and 2 x separate steam units on all at minimum output. Whilst other configurations are possible at the detail level, overall can't go any lower in total without risking a system collapse. Between them current output is just over 8% of installed gas-fired generating capacity in SA.

*NSW coal plant - 15 (of 16) units are on. Between them they're running at 62% of their capacity or 59% of the total coal-fired capacity in NSW.

*Vic coal plant - 8 (of 10) units are on. Between them they're running at 85% of their capacity or 76% of the total coal-fired capacity in Vic.

*SA wind generation is running at about 80% of available capacity. Rest is curtailed. Wind generation in other states is fully utilised. Wind contribution to demand is presently about 5% in NSW, 35% Vic, 105% SA, 15% Tas.

All that's a pretty standard response to low load by the way. Increasing load would be a cinch right now - even a few thousand MW across those states would be pretty straightforward so long as it was an expected occurrence.

Only reason I've left other states out was for simplicity but it's the same basic pattern.


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## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

over9k said:


> You quite literally do not even understand the very report on which you are staking your claim.
> 
> Even if their figures were reliable (and I have explained why they are not), they are still not even using them to say what you think they are.



The report is clear, 50% increase in electrical consumption, 120% increase in installed capacity.

If you don't know what this means that is your problem. I am not here to give you an education.


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## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Looking at NSW, Vic, SA and Tas combined, as of right now:
> 
> *All hydro generation in NSW and Vic is off. In Tas about 30% of available capacity is running with heavy southbound flow on the Tas - Vic interconnector. There's no hydro of significance in SA.
> 
> ...




A few thousand MW wouldn't be anywhere near enough for Victoria for a 100% EV uptake.


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## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

over9k said:


> You quite literally do not even understand the very report on which you are staking your claim.
> 
> Even if their figures were reliable (and I have explained why they are not), they are still not even using them to say what you think they are.




The IEA are claiming an additional 640TWh are needed by 2030 for EVs just in China and Europe; under their 2030 scenario, this is with just a yearly increase of a few % in EV uptake. I will get the report to double check the figures I posted, however I believe this to be correct, from the report.

You expect me to listen to you rather than the IEA 

I really think that you need to spend some time learning about economics and engineering. So how many organisations is it going to take before you just accept that you really don't understand what you're talking about?


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## SirRumpole (18 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Looking at NSW, Vic, SA and Tas combined, as of right now:
> 
> *All hydro generation in NSW and Vic is off. In Tas about 30% of available capacity is running with heavy southbound flow on the Tas - Vic interconnector. There's no hydro of significance in SA.
> 
> ...




This seems to be quite a change from a few months ago when the system was apparently on a knife edge and blackouts (sorry load shedding) were on the cards.

Has anything new been installed,  have repairs to out of order generators been completed, or has covid squashed demand ?

And when the economy does restart, will we be back o a knife edge situation ?


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## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

"*Global electricity demand from EVs is close to 640 TWh in 2030, concentrated in China and Europe in the New Policies Scenario and more widespread in the EV30@30 Scenario. Slow charging is the means that accounts for the largest share of electricity consumed by EVs"




Source: IEA analysis developed with the IEA Mobility Model. Notes: NPS = New Policies Scenario; EV30@30 = EV30@30 Scenario; LDV = light-duty vehicle. In the columns with results by type of charger, green and blue correspond to slow chargers; red, yellow and orange correspond to fast chargers. Main assumptions: 20% higher annual mileage for EVs than for conventional ICE vehicles. Fuel consumption (in kilowatt-hours per kilometre): PLDVs 0.20-0.26; LCVs 0.31-0.42; buses 1.2-1.74; minibuses 0.35-1.49; medium trucks 0.87-1.11; heavy trucks 1.46-2.08, two-wheelers 0.03-o.04. Annual mileage (in km): PLDVs 8 000-18 000 km; LCVs 11 000- 31 000; buses and minibuses 15 000-45 000; medium and heavy trucks 22 000-91 000; two-wheelers 4 000-7 600. Ranges indicate the variation across countries. Charging losses are 5% and the share of electric driving for PHEVs is 70% of the annual mileage in 2030.

(https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2019)
*
No surprise that China are building and are planning to build 100s of nuclear reactors


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## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

So just for some context: Australia consumes ~220 TWh a year (https://www.worlddata.info/australia/australia/energy-consumption.php#:~:text=The most important measure in the energy balance,Australia can provide itself completely with self-produced energy.)


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)




----------



## over9k (18 July 2020)

You are arguing about something with someone who is actually trained to do the very calculations that you are using to make your claim, whilst simultaneously not even understanding the very reports which you think prove you right.

It's akin to arguing with a doctor and thinking something you've found on google proves him wrong when in reality it doesn't but you just think it does because not being a doctor, you don't understand it. 

They don't say what you think they do. You are talking past me and trying to defeat a point I never made.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2020)

over9k said:


> You are arguing about something with someone who is actually trained to do the very calculations that you are using to make your claim, whilst simultaneously not even understanding the very reports which you think prove you right.
> 
> They don't say what you think they do. You are talking past me and trying to defeat a point I never made.
> 
> The reports say an increase in peak power demand needs an infrastructure buildout. I've never disputed that. In fact I've been saying it. I didn't need a whole stack of reports to know that I can assure you.




I don't know why you bother mate.


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## over9k (18 July 2020)

I've even tried the doctor analogy now, we'll see how it goes.

This is actually fun though. I'm about 30/70 facepalm vs laughing. Like it's kind of amazing really.


----------



## Value Collector (18 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Then there's the cost of running service stations




Yep, and that cost is huge.

not only is it super expensive to install those massive under ground Fuel storage tanks under every petrol station, but their life is only 20-30 years.

Hooking up electric charging is far less complex than petrol tanks, pipes and bowsers.

Also think about the fleet of trucks required to transport fuel around the cities and country, we already have power lines that will be transporting electricity anyway, every petrol truck we don’t need is a massive saving.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I've even tried the doctor analogy now, we'll see how it goes.
> 
> This is actually fun though. I'm about 30/70 facepalm vs laughing. Like it's kind of amazing really.



His doctor is happy to report that he won the argument with himself, although has made another appointment to be sure to be sure.


----------



## over9k (18 July 2020)

I'm going to try the flood analogy next - you know, not needing to build more drains if the rain doesn't all come at once. Maybe that'll work.

But probably not.


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## Garpal Gumnut (18 July 2020)

The only thing I know about electricity is to always hold the step ladder when a lady is changing a ceiling light bulb. 

gg


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## Value Collector (18 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The only thing I know about electricity is to always hold the step ladder when a lady is changing a ceiling light bulb.
> 
> gg




Don’t bring up electric lighting, or some one will want to point out electric lighting requires coal and until we have zero emission  lighting we should forget about efficient LED lighting and move back to Kerosine lamps.


----------



## Value Collector (18 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I'm going to try the flood analogy next - you know, not needing to build more drains if the rain doesn't all come at once. Maybe that'll work.
> 
> But probably not.




On the Tesla truck announcement, Elon said when they begin rolling out the “Mega Charger Network” which will provide charging for the Tesla Semi Trucks, the Mega chargers will be fitted with “power packs” (big batteries) and solar.

So Each charging station will not only Be producing it’s own power which it then sells to the Truck owns (which is a profitable business in itself), but it will also be able to arbitrage and buy power at cheap off peak times at night and the middle of the day to sell on demand.

Tesla already is involved in Giant battery packs around the world that help renewables supply steady Power.

their charging network could become a massive distributed production and storage network.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> The only thing I know about electricity is to always hold the step ladder when a lady is changing a ceiling light bulb.
> 
> gg



Sir Garpal, only you could put a new twist a "light bulb" moment.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

over9k said:


> You are arguing about something with someone who is actually trained to do the very calculations that you are using to make your claim, whilst simultaneously not even understanding the very reports which you think prove you right.
> 
> It's akin to arguing with a doctor and thinking something you've found on google proves him wrong when in reality it doesn't but you just think it does because not being a doctor, you don't understand it.
> 
> They don't say what you think they do. You are talking past me and trying to defeat a point I never made.




On contrary, you are disregarding people who are trained to do the calculations who actually compile the reports.

You are telling me that we won't to worry about the additional electrical consumption and that the grid can handle. Yeah right, you keep believing that.

Time for you to be put on performance review.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> His doctor is happy to report that he won the argument with himself, although has made another appointment to be sure to be sure.




So now we have personal attacks because people have been showcased as not having a clue about the increase in electrical consumption.


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## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> On contrary, you are disregarding people who are trained to do the calculations who actually compile the reports.
> 
> You are telling me that we won't to worry about the additional electrical consumption and that the grid can handle. Yeah right, you keep believing that.
> 
> Time for you to be put on performance review.



I have yet to see a poster here suggest we will not need additional capacity and an improved grid.  So rather than rant, what exactly is your point?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> I have yet to see a poster here suggest we will not need additional capacity and an improved grid.  So rather than rant, what exactly is your point?




Over9k said it. He reckons that we can just charge the vehicles in off-peak and it will be fine.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> So now we have personal attacks because people have been showcased as not having a clue about the increase in electrical consumption.



You appear to not have worked out that many who post here have a pretty good idea that things need to change, while you continue to be "winning" a discussion that nobody else is having with you.
I don't think others need to worry about doing your job for you given that it's between you and perhaps your better self.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Over9k said it. He reckons that we can just charge the vehicles in off-peak and it will be fine.



That's presently the case.  And it will be the case for quite a few years to come, even when load shedding events prevail due to excessive daytime temperatures overloading the system.
Right now it would be great if thousands more EVs were around so that wind curtailment wasn't necessary.
And that's aside from how solar PV curtailment is necessary as more capacity is added and the daytime load is not there.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> You appear to not have worked out that many who post here have a pretty good idea that things need to change, while you continue to be "winning" a discussion that nobody else is having with you.
> I don't think others need to worry about doing your job for you given that it's between you and perhaps your better self.




I think I would be listening to experts who actually produce the reports that I have presented, people who put their real name to their work.

Many who post here have either claimed that the electrical consumption isn't anything to be concerned about or that it will be fine as the vehicles can recharge in off-peak.

Clearly not the case, much policy requires urgent attention for electric vehicles in Australia.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

@Value Collector - a question, good sir.
If a Tesla had a flat battery, could you pull alongside and "top them up" enough to make to a charging point?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> That's presently the case.  And it will be the case for quite a few years to come, even when load shedding events prevail due to excessive daytime temperatures overloading the system.
> Right now it would be great if thousands more EVs were around so that wind curtailment wasn't necessary.
> And that's aside from how solar PV curtailment is necessary as more capacity is added and the daytime load is not there.




Presently the case, that is the problem. EVs will compromise the grid if they aren't regulated and slowly introduced.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I think I would be listening to experts who actually produce the reports that I have presented, people who put their real name to their work.
> 
> Many who post here have either claimed that the electrical consumption isn't anything to be concerned about or that it will be fine as the vehicles can recharge in off-peak.
> 
> Clearly not the case, much policy requires urgent attention for electric vehicles in Australia.



You are off the mark.
The KPMG Report has a lot of good information backing it.
However, it suffers the same problem that all "forward looking" reports have, in that it relies on assumptions.
As these change, the less reliable will be their conclusions.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Presently the case, that is the problem. EVs will compromise the grid if they aren't regulated and slowly introduced.



Ok, that's a few assumptions.
The rate of take-up will not affect the present grid's capabilities for some years, and while the trend gets clearer over time, the energy operators will be adapting to needs.  This is already a well-flagged issue.
An unknown right now is the extent to which HEVs affect any forecasts as they would be substantially cheaper to purchase, but lack a necesssarily expensive supporting infrastructure.
The issue of "regulation" is moot.  In what sense are you using it?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Ok, that's a few assumptions.
> The rate of take-up will not affect the present grid's capabilities for some years, and while the trend gets clearer over time, the energy operators will be adapting to needs.  This is already a well-flagged issue.
> The issue of "regulation" is moot.  In what sense are you using it?




I am yet to see a government publication that analyses various scenarios for EV uptake. It is all well and wonderful at the moment; however what is the electrical consumption and capacity requirements for an EV uptake of 30% by 2030 for Australia?

The issue of regulation isn't moot, it is necessary. Introduction of EVs has the serious potential to compromise our grid. It is a national security threat and as such must be appropriately acknowledged and mitigated.

I am happy to have a discussion with you provided that it is sensible, rational and the personal remarks and trolling is left at the door.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I am yet to see a government publication that analyses various scenarios for EV uptake. It is all well and wonderful at the moment; however what is the electrical consumption and capacity requirements for an EV uptake of 30% by 2030 for Australia?



This demonstrates that it is not an issue you have followed.  EV take-up is under constant review (see page 30).


Chronos-Plutus said:


> The issue of regulation isn't moot, it is necessary. Introduction of EVs has the serious potential to compromise our grid. It is a national security threat and as such must be appropriately acknowledged and mitigated.



Nope!
It's a matter of ensuring the technical mix of additional energy supply does not crash the grid. 
What are you offering?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> This demonstrates that it is not an issue you have followed.  EV take-up is under constant review (see page 30).
> Nope!
> It's a matter of ensuring the technical mix of additional energy supply does not crash the grid.
> What are you offering?




Powerplants aren't built overnight and this is where the problem is. I don't have an issue with private consumer preference of EVs, provided we have the installed capacity, that the grid isn't compromised, and that the taxpayer isn't subsidizing the EVs. I would like to see a full working paper for EV uptake scenarios in Australia.

A great deal of forward planning is required and there will be an enormous amount of regulation and taxes for EVs.

As far as what I am offering for energy mix solutions, well you will probably never know because I am not here to discuss my ideas with you people


----------



## Value Collector (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> @Value Collector - a question, good sir.
> If a Tesla had a flat battery, could you pull alongside and "top them up" enough to make to a charging point?




The NRMA and other road side assistance groups can do that, I will link an article discussing that below.

But given that it’s common practice to start each day with a full battery it’s unlikely you will run out unless you are being pretty reckless.

but even so, the Tesla gives you loads of warnings if you are getting low, and tells you switch off aircon reduce speed etc. And will try and redirect you to a charging location along your route.

Also, you can plug into any power point, so you always top up at your destination or in a parking lot some where if you have done something silly.

https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/930401/nrma-roadside-service-goes-electric/


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Powerplants aren't built overnight and this is where the problem is.



Wind and solar can add the same capacity as a conventional coal plant in a fraction of the time, so what you think is a problem is incorrect.
The problem lies in integrating additional capacity into the grid.


Chronos-Plutus said:


> A great deal of forward planning is required and there will be an enormous amount of regulation and taxes for EVs.



I don't deal with guesses.
AOMO have a reasonable idea of what is necessary into the future.
Given we have had EVs on the road for many years, what regulation and taxes are you talking about?


Chronos-Plutus said:


> As far as what I am offering for energy mix solutions, well you will probably never know because I am not here to discuss my ideas with you people



I am happy to sell you my battery charger which draws static electricity from the atmosphere!


----------



## Value Collector (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> That's presently the case.  And it will be the case for quite a few years to come, even when load shedding events prevail due to excessive daytime temperatures overloading the system.
> Right now it would be great if thousands more EVs were around so that wind curtailment wasn't necessary.
> And that's aside from how solar PV curtailment is necessary as more capacity is added and the daytime load is not there.




Yep, my personal home solar gets curtailed to 5KWH unless I am using electricity at home, due to a 5kWH export limit. 

most days my system will produce over that 5 KWH level for 5 hours peaking above 6.5 KWH for about 3 hours.

So having my car start charging during those times takes nothing away from the grid, instead it’s actually taking advantage of energy that would be lost other wise.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Given we have had EVs on the road for many years, what regulation and taxes are you talking about?




A tiny proportion of EV's at the moment.

When the numbers start to threaten fuel excise revenue is when you will see regulation and taxes.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, my personal home solar gets curtailed to 5KWH unless I am using electricity at home, due to a 5kWH export limit.
> 
> most days my system will produce over that 5 KWH level for 5 hours peaking above 6.5 KWH for about 3 hours.
> 
> So having my car start charging during those times takes nothing away from the grid, instead it’s actually taking advantage of energy that would be lost other wise.




So does that extra get diverted to hot water heating at that time ?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Wind and solar can add the same capacity as a conventional coal plant in a fraction of the time, so what you think is a problem is incorrect.
> The problem lies in integrating additional capacity into the grid.
> I don't deal with guesses.
> AOMO have a reasonable idea of what is necessary into the future.
> ...




CST and offshore wind is still very expensive. The problem with integration is more big batteries required, then we have transmission networks to run lines all over the country. So wind and solar has its problems also.

I don't deal with guesses either; or the mentality that it will be fine.

The regulation will have to limit EV uptake which will be pegged to the additional installed capacity requirements. EV taxes will need to plug the hole from fuel taxes lost.

As for your sales pitch; I am not in the market to buy, I am in the market to sell.


----------



## Value Collector (18 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So does that extra get diverted to hot water heating at that time ?




In my case I have installed a timer to turn on hotwater system at 11am, and my car begins charging at 9.00am, if you don’t do that it is lost.

I will post two photo of my solar graph, one you will see the graph flattens out, that is the limiter kicking in because I wasn’t using anything.

The only photo shows a more rounded bell curve, where production grows much higher, this is because the car is charging and hotwater system kicked on.

blue is production (dark blue export, light blue used at house)

Orange is usage (dark orange import, light orange solar used)


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> CST and Offshore wind is still very expensive. The problem with integration is more big batteries, then we have transmission networks to run lines all over the country. So wind and solar has its problems.
> 
> I don't deal with guesses either; or the mentality that it will be fine.
> 
> ...



I think you have shown us all how far behind the ball you are playing.
WRT to EV "taxes" the simple mechanism is an actual road use charge, and this has been touted for a long time by industry sectors.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> I think you have shown us all how far behind the ball you are playing.
> WRT to EV "taxes" the simple mechanism is an actual road use charge, and this has been touted for a long time by industry sectors.




You couldn't even go a few posts without making provocative remarks.

I am many steps ahead of you. I am thinking decades ahead, when you're mental capacity is clearly limited to the present only.

Road use charges are already in place. I think a direct tax on EVs will come in whether you like it or not.

If you disagree with me that is fine, don't get personal or political, that just highlights your immaturity.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You couldn't even go a few posts without making provocative remarks.
> 
> I am many steps ahead of you. I am thinking decades ahead, when you're mental capacity is clearly limited to the present only.
> 
> Road use charges are already in place.



You wonder why others have ridiculed you?
Your understanding of the issues confronting our energy networks is rudimentary at best.

As to taxes, the federal government has no access to State/Territory taxes to offset loss of the fuel excise, but does not need to, as it could simply adjust disbursement of the GST.  Your point about tax on road use is not reflected in revenues as there are no per kilometre, zone or corridor specific charging arrangements in place that I am aware.


----------



## Value Collector (18 July 2020)

EV’s owners do already contribute to road taxes.

1, we all still pay rates to our local councils to fund local roads whether we drive Petrol, EV or take the bus.

2, EV owners still pay registration fees, just like petrol cars.

3, At the moment most EV’s get hit with the luxury vehicle tax, where as a lot of cheaper petrol cars don’t.

—————-
Sure EV owners don’t pay the fuel excise, but that is Just one part of The taxes vehicle owners pay.

Petrol vehicles do however cause a lot of health problems, air pollution causes billions of dollars a year in extra costs to the government, so it’s probably fair enough that EV’s don’t pay quite as much tax.

however as pointed out by others when the times comes the tax system can just make adjustments to include EV’s more.

Taxation is certainly not an argument against EV’s.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> You wonder why others have ridiculed you?
> Your understanding of the issues confronting our energy networks is rudimentary at best.
> 
> As to taxes, the federal government has no access to State/Territory taxes to offset loss of the fuel excise, but does not need to, as it could simply adjust disbursement of the GST.  Your point about tax on road use is not reflected in revenues as there are no per kilometre, zone or corridor specific charging arrangements in place that I am aware.




Personal attacks once again all because I don't agree with you. This is the reason that the discussion and debate gets detailed.

I don't think you fully grasp and understand the scale and magnitude of this issue at hand. I am not upset that you are struggling either because I can't expect too much of you. It is like trying to teach a 1st grade student year 10 maths.
I have found credible reports and I can speak to many engineers, scientists and various professionals to get their opinion.

I don't need to subscribe to your opinion, because your opinion means very little me.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Personal attacks once again all because I don't agree with you. This is the reason that the discussion and debate gets detailed.
> 
> I don't think you fully grasp and understand the scale and magnitude of this issue at hand. I am not upset that you are struggling either because I can't expect too much of you.
> I have found credible reports and I can speak to many engineers, scientists and various professionals to get their opinion.
> ...



I have challenged your understanding of the energy systems in place and planned.
You seem unaware of where things stand, what is taking place, and what is known to be necessary.
I have "attacked" you knowledge.  It's well behind that of many posters here.
As a result, it reflects on you ability to understand why your commentary is not valued.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

rederob said:


> I have challenged your understanding of the energy systems in place and planned.
> You seem unaware of where things stand, what is taking place, and what is known to be necessary.
> I have "attacked" you knowledge.  It's well behind that of many posters here.
> As a result, it reflects on you ability to understand why your commentary is not valued.




You haven't challenged anything. You have just trolled and made personal attacks. Really it is just pathetic.

I don't need to prove anything to you. You are a nobody to me. I haven't canvassed my energy knowledge on here at all, because it would be a waste of time as you are incapable of understanding it. Yeah; I am going to start posting electrical schematics and mechanical diagrams on here after all this; wake up to yourself.

The reports from KPMG and the IEA speak for themselves. If you have a problem with them, that is your problem.


----------



## fiftyeight (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You haven't challenged anything. *You have just trolled* and made personal attacks. Really it is just pathetic.




HAHAHAHA

@Chronos-Plutus *if you are going to troll* and trash a good thread, can you please at least attempt to be funny?



SirRumpole said:


> I don't know why you bother mate.




This where the 'Ignore' feature does not work.

You can ignore someone, but then you lose context of what is being said by others. The only answer seems to be if everyone stops taking the bait.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> HAHAHAHA
> 
> @Chronos-Plutus *if you are going to troll* and trash a good thread, can you please at least attempt to be funny?
> 
> ...



Why don't you go do something productive with your night, like analysing the stock VMT on the ASX, rather than being a pest.

I intend to enjoy my Saturday night now, and you are not invited, HAHA.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (18 July 2020)

I'm going to run out of popcorn and Panadol if this keeps up.

gg


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I'm going to run out of popcorn and Panadol if this keeps up.
> 
> gg



When did you run of Bex?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (18 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I'm going to run out of popcorn and Panadol if this keeps up.
> 
> gg




I was told about VMT a while ago; I am way ahead of these guys.

Last post for tonight now.


----------



## rederob (18 July 2020)

Aside from your references to KPMG and the IEA, here are the areas you fall down:

Off-peak charging is unlikely to be a problem for years to come
Daytime charging is currently happening and @Value Collector demonstrates how
AEMO's ISP shows pathways to increased capacity - you seem oblivious to this
It is improbable that the uptick in EV ownership over time will come as a surprise so network operators will have years to adapt
KPMG's assumptions cannot be regarded as definitive future events
You were unaware that AEMO has reported on EV penetration and has it under regular review, rendering your subsequent ideas on "planning" poorly based
You are unaware of how quickly capacity can be added to the grid
Your points on CST, offshore wind and batteries were barely relevant
Your thoughts on regulating EV take-up were not substantiated
Your ideas about taxes are not in keeping with industry preferences and did not reflect a "user pays" principle
I have challenged you on your understanding of the above, and your responses are not enlightening.


----------



## over9k (18 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> On contrary, you are disregarding people who are trained to do the calculations who actually compile the reports.
> 
> You are telling me that we won't to worry about the additional electrical consumption and that the grid can handle. Yeah right, you keep believing that.
> 
> Time for you to be put on performance review.



Nope, I actually agree with what they're saying if we assume that their conditions hold - I would have said it long before you posted the report if you'd asked. 

You do not understand what the reports are actually saying, which is what I have been trying to explain to you the whole time: 

The reports don't say what you think they do. I'm not saying that what the report says is wrong, I'm saying that what you think it says is wrong. 


Chronos-Plutus said:


> So now we have personal attacks because people have been showcased as not having a clue about the increase in electrical consumption.



Yep, we're all wrong and you're right. 


Chronos-Plutus said:


> Over9k said it. He reckons that we can just charge the vehicles in off-peak and it will be fine.






rederob said:


> That's presently the case.  And it will be the case for quite a few years to come, even when load shedding events prevail due to excessive daytime temperatures overloading the system.
> Right now it would be great if thousands more EVs were around so that wind curtailment wasn't necessary.
> And that's aside from how solar PV curtailment is necessary as more capacity is added and the daytime load is not there.




Lol 



Chronos-Plutus said:


> I think I would be listening to experts who actually produce the reports that I have presented, people who put their real name to their work.
> 
> Many who post here have either claimed that the electrical consumption isn't anything to be concerned about or that it will be fine as the vehicles can recharge in off-peak.
> 
> Clearly not the case, much policy requires urgent attention for electric vehicles in Australia.




Once again: The report doesn't say what you think it does. Their calculations are accurate. Their assumptions are not. You clearly do not understand the distinction. 



rederob said:


> Aside from your references to KPMG and the IEA, here are the areas you fall down:
> 
> Off-peak charging is unlikely to be a problem for years to come
> Daytime charging is currently happening and @Value Collector demonstrates how
> ...




More lol. 



Let me ask this again chronos: Tell me exactly what you think the report says and why it says it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> This seems to be quite a change from a few months ago when the system was apparently on a knife edge and blackouts (sorry load shedding) were on the cards.
> 
> Has anything new been installed, have repairs to out of order generators been completed, or has covid squashed demand ?




A few issues there.

Yes there have been repairs done to the two generating units in Victoria which experienced major failures last year and lead to considerable concern. In both cases those were major repairs taking circa 6 months following significant incidents.

The other factor is that there's considerable variation in consumption both seasonally and throughout the day. In Victoria's case the maximum demand ever recorded exceeds 10,000 MW but right now it's sitting on about 5700 and last night it dropped down to about 4500. So time of day makes a big difference but also there are seasonal issues.

Queensland peaks in Summer. Tasmania peaks in Winter. Obvious climatic reasons in both cases noting that the majority of space heating in Tas is electric (unlike say Victoria where gas heating is dominant).

NSW, Vic, SA have their absolute peak on hot days in summer but an average day in winter sees higher demand than an average non-heatwave day in summer. So winter's a more relentless grind but it's summer that sees the extremes and it's those extremes in summer which lead to most concerns about supply.

So there's still a lot of concern about supply reliability during heatwaves etc, we could well see load shedding over the coming summers on extreme days indeed I'll go as far as saying it's likely to happen at some point, but that's an issue only at the actual peaks.

Even on a day when demand reaches extreme levels, there's still a surplus of supply just a few hours either side of that. Come back at midnight the same day and some generating plant will be completely shut down as simply not required.

As a more familiar analogy, road traffic. A city can be heavily congested at 6pm but the streets may be practically empty just two or three hours later and you'd be waiting a while to find even one car on the road at 3am.

So whether it's electricity or roads, you can certainly put more volume through the existing infrastructure just so long as you're not doing it at the peaks. Transporting a heavy load through the city or charging EV's at night isn't a concern, doing it at midday in either case wouldn't cause much of a worry either, but adding more traffic to the roads or more load to the power grid at ~6pm is best avoided.

Some charts show it pretty well:

Past 12 months daily data for Victoria and SA. Note the spikes on a few days in summer - that's what causes most of the concern. The pattern is much the same for NSW in particular.

Black = coal
Orange = gas
Blue = hydro
Green = wind
Yellow = solar
Purple = import from other states
Below the zero line = export to other states






For the December spike in SA, Adelaide recorded maximum temperatures of 43.7, 45.3 and 43.9 on those three consecutive days (BOM data). For the Victorian spike in January, Melbourne recorded 42.9 degrees on 31 January.

That said, even on an extreme day demand only hits that maximum for a relatively brief period. Looking at the past week, and noting that a broadly similar pattern occurs throughout the year, there are always periods when demand is relatively low:










So just over the last 7 days we see the overall supply and demand situation constantly changing and varying quite dramatically. There are times when a lot of load could be added without an issue, other times when the capacity is more stretched. Tasmania in particular is somewhat a "shock absorber" for the other states - largely because with a couple of exceptions the hydro stations are extremely easy to start up and shut down.

So it can all be made to work and there's no need to build anything if charging is done using a "smart" approach which avoids adding load to the existing peak around 6pm.

Of course, if consumers do want to charge at that time then it's doable, it's just a matter of building infrastructure but obviously that does cost money but as with anything it can be built.

It's a couple of years old but still relevant and there's a lot of scenarios and information in this report for those interested:

https://aemo.com.au/-/media/files/e...final---aemo-ev-insights---september-2017.pdf


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So does that extra get diverted to hot water heating at that time ?



That extra will at best be used for water heating IF you have an intelligent power system collected.
Most people do not and you end up warming the air via a huge resistor.
Anyone about global warming? 
So the real usefulness of a grid able to actually consume as much as we can throw at it


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> A few issues there.
> 
> Yes there have been repairs done to the two generating units in Victoria which experienced major failures last year and lead to considerable concern. In both cases those were major repairs taking circa 6 months following significant incidents.
> 
> ...



Can i suggest you might take an approach here which is *too macro* focused?
My street/road is 10km long, mostly rural residential, some solar panels,pool pumps, no industry on that street and in Qld so no industrial power use of worth overall.
Based on 25kwh per 100km ev, which I'm sure you can agree if you have been able to read my posts and  link among the deluge :-(
A house  like mine will double to tripple its consumption, as will all household along the street if moving to ev
Charging will happen between 6pm and 6am unless there are recharging at train stations car parks..good luck
I can not see how that can be doable when recharges take 8h or so without some major expenses.
It is not a deal breaker and do not require much more power stations if done properly but i have the feeling that most distribution networks will be in trouble for the last miles.they were not built for that.look at our endless suburbs.
Hard to predict in our current reset time.
If universal income is coming, well easy most EVs will be parked at home at lunchtime and could be part of the solution, same if EVs are mostly owned by rich retirees.
But let's not only judge at the macro view..
It is a shame that debate was highjacked with such virulence as the few good points were lost in the flood..and now ignore makes it hard especially for a right extremist like me  lol..FB: please note i am not

 When ignoring both our usual rabid leftist culprits and others:
the suppression idea  is not oerfect


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> That extra will at best be used for water heating IF you have an intelligent power system collected.
> Most people do not and you end up warming the air via a huge resistor.
> Anyone about global warming?
> So the real usefulness of a grid able to actually consume as much as we can throw at it




Yep, when it comes time to replace the hot system I will get a smart hotwater system, in the mean time I am just relying on a dumb timer.

But yeah as the grid improves over time it should be better suited to moving and trading power around cities rather than having to idle back production.

A Tesla battery would totally solve my problem, but since I am moving soon it’s not worth it, and my car and hotwater system timing gets me 90% of the way there anyway.


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Based on 25kwh per 100km ev,




That is a pretty high number, my car has averaged 12kwh per 100km over the last 50km I have driven, and the rated average 15kwh.

sure some larger vehicles might use 25kwh but mine doesn’t.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> A few issues there.




Thanks for that Smurf, great post.

Can you give us an idea of what the overall demand has been during the covid months compared to the same time last year ?


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

I question the figure of 25Kwhrs per 100 klms for EVs as well. VCs contribution from personal experience adds another POV.

Has anyone seen an authoritative  table which indicates estimated power usage of the various EV's on the market ?

---------------------------
Currently looking at quotes to electrify the Caddie. Seems to be sufficient boot space for the batteries ..


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

This is a  current review of EV's and their potential effect on the energy market. 

ISSUES PAPER
*2020 RETAIL ENERGY COMPETITION REVIEW: ELECTRIC VEHICLES*

Feb 2020
https://www.aemc.gov.au/sites/defau...review_-_electric_vehicles_-_issues_paper.pdf


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

basilio said:


> I question the figure of 25Kwhrs per 100 klms for EVs as well. VCs contribution from personal experience adds another POV.
> 
> Has anyone seen an authoritative  table which indicates estimated power usage of the various EV's on the market ?
> 
> ...




What is interesting is my car can maintain about 12 KWH per hundred regardless of terrain, even going over a mountain.

you can see in this chart that usage went up to Nearly 60 KWH / 100km going up the mountain, but due to regen braking recharging the battery on the way down the average was still only slightly above the 12 KWH mark.

the green in the chart is the battery recharging as we travel down hill.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

Just to get back on topic.* ELECTRIC CARS 
*
Those interested in electricity poles should start their own thread.

Is it possible to do the equivalent of "burnouts" and "wheelies" in an electric car? 

A comparison in making my point would be a motor car thread segueing in to a discussion on drilling for oil.

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Is it possible to do the equivalent of "burnouts" and "wheelies" in an electric car?




Absolutely, the torque generated by an electric motor is enormous. The charge might only last 5 minutes if you do that but you can shred tyres all you want.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely, the torque generated by an electric motor is enormous. The charge might only last 5 minutes if you do that but you can shred tyres all you want.




Thanks @SirRumpole .

My next question is does it have a clutch in the same position as a clutch on a motor. 

I am thinking along the lines of young people at drive-ins and their reproductive capacity. Some of my fondest memories are of clutch on clutch but it was a bother. 

gg


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely, the torque generated by an electric motor is enormous. The charge might only last 5 minutes if you do that but you can shred tyres all you want.





Hahaha, and you won’t wake up the babies in the neighborhood, or disturb me as I try and watch Deadpool 2 tonight on channel 7.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks @SirRumpole .
> 
> My next question is does it have a clutch in the same position as a clutch on a motor.
> 
> ...




I think EV's are probably duds as  chick magnets.

Too quiet and smooth. The girls seem to like the low vibrations of V8's . It's probably a primal thing.


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks @SirRumpole .
> 
> My next question is does it have a clutch in the same position as a clutch on a motor.
> 
> ...




No clutch in Tesla’s, there is only 2 gears (forward and reverse hahaha)

you barely even need the brake Pedal unless it’s for an emergency stop.

Teslas are all about the 1 pedal driving. (It’s weird at first, but super awesome once you get used to it)


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

Being Electric Cars I presume they come with a cigar lighter.

Or does it interfere with the circuitry to divert the power to a lighter?

gg


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

Electric cars can produce insane acceleration. And there is an "insane' mode on the Tesla car as well - just to really impress people.


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)




----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Being Electric Cars I presume they come with a cigar lighter.
> 
> Or does it interfere with the circuitry to divert the power to a lighter?
> 
> gg




they have the cigarette lighter slot, for power access, but don’t actually come with an actual lighter.

The Tesla Ute is actually going to have 240 volt outlets on it you can plug tools into, much better than a lighter slots.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Electric cars can produce insane acceleration. And there is an "insane' mode on the Tesla car as well - just to really impress people.




I am very impressed @basilio . 

I might look at having a Telsa makeover on the Arnage. 

gg


----------



## rederob (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> they have the cigarette lighter slot, for power access, but don’t actually come with an actual lighter.



They will add this to Sir Garpal's order:


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> they have the cigarette lighter slot, for power access, but don’t actually come with an actual lighter.
> 
> The Tesla Ute is actually going to have 240 volt outlets on it you can plug tools into, much better than a lighter slots.



I'm getting very interested in Electric cars. I have a cigar lighter to plug in that will be just like a bought one.

Thanks @Value Collector 

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

rederob said:


> They will add this to Sir Garpal's order:



I am now converted. It's like sex. You never go back to what it was before.

gg


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I am now converted. It's like sex. You never go back to what it was before.
> 
> gg




Thanks for that.

Can we start talking about power poles again ?


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> they have the cigarette lighter slot, for power access, but don’t actually come with an actual lighter.
> 
> The Tesla Ute is actually going to have 240 volt outlets on it you can plug tools into, much better than a lighter slots.



Imagine the efficiency, the cabinet maker can build the kitchen in the back of the ute, while the car drives to the job autonomously.
The possibilities are limitless, with a Tesla.


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

For GG 

https://www.torquenews.com/5477/tur...ded-ev-conversion-kits-older-and-classic-cars


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

Electric motors make instant/full torque all the time. They're actually the best motor for towing that there is because of it... assuming the batteries can last.




vs


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2020)

Can you push a Tesla if it breaks down?
Is there a neutral?


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

moXJO said:


> Can you push a Tesla if it breaks down?
> Is there a neutral?



Yes there is a neutral.

but also there is less moving parts, so the are more reliable, also Tesla’s come with free road side assistance for the life of the vehicle.


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Electric motors make instant/full torque all the time. They're actually the best motor for towing that there is because of it... assuming the batteries can last.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




yep, that’s why all the heavy haul trains are electric (diesel motors only power generators).

The other benefit is if you tow a load up a hill, that extra weight will help you generate more charge on the way down the other side using your regen braking, rather than Burning through your brake pads.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yes there is a neutral.
> 
> but also there is less moving parts, so the are more reliable, also Tesla’s come with free road side assistance for the life of the vehicle.



I presume that more handy people than I could drop a Tesla battery in to the Arnage and modify it as the bloke did in the video above that @basilio posted. It was a bloody Range Rover, so I guess it's possible. 

I love my Arnage. 

gg


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (19 July 2020)

rederob said:


> Aside from your references to KPMG and the IEA, here are the areas you fall down:
> 
> Off-peak charging is unlikely to be a problem for years to come
> Daytime charging is currently happening and @Value Collector demonstrates how
> ...




I haven't fallen down at all. The KPMG report is clear: ~50% increase in electrical consumption and ~120% in installed capacity for a 100% EV uptake. The IEA report is clear: 640TWh of global electrical consumption under their NPS scenario and 1110TWh of global electrical consumption under their EV30@30 scenario. I don't think that you understand these figures.

1. You said that you don't work on guesses and you're just guessing.

2. Value Collector has a great hobby with his Tesla and with solar panels.

3. I want to see a full working report on EV uptake scenarios in Australia.

4. Nothing wrong with forward planning.

5. No they can't, however they are an indicator.

6. AMEO better have it under control. However incompetence often leads to promotion in government agencies.

7. I am not unaware at all. Onshore wind and roof-top solar can be added quickly. Offshore wind and CST aren't as cheap or as easy to add capacity into the grid.

8. They are completely relevant. You just like making guesses.

9. EV regulation will happen in my opinion. You might not think so.

10. The government are not going to just let their fuel taxes vanish. They will tax EVs to plug the government revenue shortfall. Again, you might not think so.

I have posted the reports, make of them or interpret them as you wish. You are not challenging me, you are challenging the reports. If you can't understand them, well I am sorry. You need to start educating yourself.


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I presume that more handy people than I could drop a Tesla battery in to the Arnage and modify it as the bloke did in the video above that @basilio posted. It was a bloody Range Rover, so I guess it's possible.
> 
> I love my Arnage.
> 
> gg




Yep, there is actually a market for Tesla's batteries after cars get written off after accidents etc.

Check out this video of these guys pulling out the Battery modules out of a Tesla Model S battery pack.

(when the guy in the Range Rover video said the Range Rover a 8 Tesla batteries under the hood, he meant 8 of the battery modules, not 8 whole Tesla battery packs)


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Nope, I actually agree with what they're saying if we assume that their conditions hold - I would have said it long before you posted the report if you'd asked.
> 
> You do not understand what the reports are actually saying, which is what I have been trying to explain to you the whole time:
> 
> ...





Not sure if English is your first language. What do you think a 50% increase in electrical consumption and a 120% increase in installed capacity means?

I think you don't understand the reports and you need to educate yourself so that you can understand the reports.


----------



## rederob (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I presume that more handy people than I could drop a Tesla battery in to the Arnage and modify it as the bloke did in the video above that @basilio posted. It was a bloody Range Rover, so I guess it's possible.
> 
> I love my Arnage.
> 
> gg



I am reliably informed by @qldfrog that this shows @Smurf1976 converting his Phantom (not the comic character):


(I believe there are subtitles for Victorians.)


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Nope, I actually agree with what they're saying if we assume that their conditions hold - I would have said it long before you posted the report if you'd asked.
> 
> You do not understand what the reports are actually saying, which is what I have been trying to explain to you the whole time:
> 
> ...





The IEA report is clear: 640TWh of global electrical consumption under their NPS scenario and 1110TWh of global electrical consumption under their EV30@30 scenario.

1110TWh of electrical consumption? That is more than 4 times Australia's entire yearly electrical consumption, just for 30% EVs, globally, in the year 2030!

And you are claiming that off-peak will be able to fill the electrical consumption gap. You have no idea.

Here is an excerpt from the IEA report: *"Electricity demand projected in both scenarios suggests that EVs are going to be much more relevant for power systems than they have been in the past. With uncontrolled charging, EVs could drive incremental needs for peak power generation and transmission capacity. Understanding the extent to which power systems can be impacted depends on total annual electricity demand EVs, the impact of daily charging patterns on load profiles, location power levels used for charging." 

(https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2019)*

Do you understand what this means?

I really think that you just don't understand the content of the reports.


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

For GG 
Rolls Royce  electric conversions


basilio said:


> For GG
> 
> https://www.torquenews.com/5477/tur...ded-ev-conversion-kits-older-and-classic-cars


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

rederob said:


> I am reliably informed by @qldfrog that this shows @Smurf1976 converting his Phantom (not the comic character):
> 
> 
> (I believe there are subtitles for Victorians.)




That is incredible. Well not incredible really. It works. 

It's sustainable and do-able. A good industry for Australia. 

I'll look in to it as soon as I get a handle on the Cloud and the associated ASX listed companies to see where the gulls are flying to next on my charts. Townsville would be well suited for recharging. 

Thanks @rederob 

gg


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I haven't fallen down at all. The KPMG report is clear: ~50% increase in electrical consumption and ~120% in installed capacity for a 100% EV uptake. The IEA report is clear: 640TWh of global electrical consumption under their NPS scenario and 1110TWh of global electrical consumption under their EV30@30 scenario. I don't think that you understand these figures.
> 
> 1. You said that you don't work on guesses and you're just guessing.
> 
> ...




Once again I will point out that KPMG’s numbers are for the year 2046, your numbers were based on today.

——————

however more importantly let me point out how ridiculous your original calculation was.

you simply converted the BTU’s in gasoline to the BTU’s in Electricity.

however This means that 1 gallon Of gasoline is equal to 36.34 KWH of electricity.

My car can go nearly 300km of 36KWH, where as the average petrol car will on do 40km on a gallon.

——————

So you were essentially saying EV’s will use 90 KWH / 100km instead of only 12 KWH.

So your calculation means we need 7.5 times more electricity than we actually would need in reality to replace gasoline, that is why we were saying you were wrong.

*12 KWH per 100,..... not 90 KWH as you claimed. Your calculation wasn’t rough, it was wrong by a factor of 7.5, *not to mention you didn’t allow at all for utilization Of off-peak or incremental growth over time as EV’s slowly phase in.



*
*


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

basilio said:


> For GG
> Rolls Royce  electric conversions



Thanks @basilio . Well, well, I never thought I'd be converted to Electric Cars. 

I'll keep the link.

gg


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

This is why GG loves his Arange.
https://www.autotrader.com/car-video/ownership-report-1-year-used-bentley-arnage-270554


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Once again I will point out that KPMG’s numbers are for the year 2046, your numbers were based on today.
> 
> ——————
> 
> ...




By the year 2046, populations will grow. If anything, more cars will be on the road.


Don't worry about my rough and quick numbers, it was a way to see what was the amount of energy involved, impact on energy markets, in the transition within minutes.

*Look at the IEA report for their electrical consumption scenario of EV30@30. 1110TWh of global electrical consumption, for 30% EVs, by the year 2030.

Maybe ask Smurf if 1110TWh of electrical consumption is nothing.*


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, there is actually a market for Tesla's batteries after cars get written off after accidents etc.
> 
> Check out this video of these guys pulling out the Battery modules out of a Tesla Model S battery pack.
> 
> (when the guy in the Range Rover video said the Range Rover a 8 Tesla batteries under the hood, he meant 8 of the battery modules, not 8 whole Tesla battery packs)




I'll run all this past a few mates who are "handy". I'm more cerebral. 

It certainly looks do-able. thanks for your reply @Value Collector 

I nearly missed your post for all the electric poles in the way of this discussion on *Electric Cars.
*
gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

basilio said:


> This is why GG loves his Arange.
> https://www.autotrader.com/car-video/ownership-report-1-year-used-bentley-arnage-270554



Thanks @basilio .

It's a wonderful motor. 

Too many power poles again. 

gg


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> By the year 2046, populations will grow. If anything, more cars will be on the road.




Exactly, finally you understand.

Part of the reason KPMG is saying that by 2046 there will need to be additional capacity is because of population growth, not just more cars but all more Air cons, Heaters, toasters, hot water systems and TV's.

And, this population needs more infrastructure regardless, even if we stay 100% committed to Petrol and diesel, we would need more upgrades refineries and import terminals, more petrol stations, more tanker trucks, more pipelines, more underground tanks etc etc etc.



> Don't worry about my rough and quick numbers, it was a way to see what was the amount of energy involved,




Thats what we were pointing out, you massively over estimated.

and then tried to claim KPMG agreed which they didn't, because their numbers are for 2046, and as I said include growth in all electrical usage, which would need to be catered for either way, and growth in total cars that need to be catered for (even if the growth was in petrol cars)


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Exactly, finally you understand.
> 
> Part of the reason KPMG is saying that by 2046 there will need to be additional capacity is because of population growth, not just more cars but all more Air cons, Heaters, toasters, hot water systems and TV's.
> 
> ...




Irrespective of the very rough overnight numbers, which were never intended to be precise; if we phased out our crude oil economy infrastructure and electrified our transportation sector; it will take us well past mid century and dramatically slow the EV uptake; if we pegged EV uptake with the lifecycle of crude oil infrastructure. However there is still an enormous amount of additional electrical capacity that will be required.

Whatever our disagreements may be here; perhaps we can agree that our government must start building robust policy to address the electrical consumption needs for EVs; as stated in the staggering IEA report figures for EV electrical consumption requirements.


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> it will take us to the end of the century and dramatically slow the EV uptake; if we pegged EV uptake with the lifecycle of crude oil infrastructure.




I don't agree, things can happen super fast when people with capital decide to act fast.

I mean Tesla Built, shipped and installed the big battery in SA under 100 days.
The Solar thats installed on My roof that covers 100% of my needs was installed in 1.5 days.
Gas generation can be installed in a few months.

Things can happen super fast, but it will only get done incrementally as demand slowly grows. no one is going to build the capacity until they believe that capacity will create revenue.

------------
*The other important thing you don't really comprehend is that just as the users buying petrol have funded the growth in the oil industry, so to will all the paying customers buying electricity.*

There is plenty of capital out there looking for home where it can earn 8% - 10% returns, energy infrastructure underwritten by high demand and high utilisation rates, is a great investment, money will flow into the sector as it grows.


----------



## rederob (19 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> *Maybe ask Smurf if 1110TWh of electrical consumption is nothing.*



It's a bit less than China consumes in *2 months*.
So it's something, but not a lot given that it's 10 years away.


----------



## fiftyeight (19 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Not sure if English is your first language




Trolling again and still not funny???



Chronos-Plutus said:


> Whatever our disagreements may be here; perhaps we can agree that our government must start building robust policy to address the electrical consumption needs for EVs




How kind of you to generously offer an olive branch.......finally you have posted something that made me laugh


----------



## rederob (19 July 2020)

rederob said:


> It's a bit less than China consumes in *2 months*.
> So it's something, but not a lot given that it's 10 years away.



Put another way, between 2018 and 2019 China added enough capacity to meet an additional 570TWh.
So by 2030 China alone has the ability to meet 5 times the IEA forecast for EV demand. 
@Chronos-Plutus has turned a molehill into a mountain.


----------



## Value Collector (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks @basilio .
> 
> It's a wonderful motor.
> 
> ...




In the interests on putting up some content for the "Car guys" among us.

Here is a video of a drag race between a road legal Tesla Model S and the $1 Million+ Super cheap auto V8 super car.

(it drags two cars, one road legal and one super car)


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> In the interests on putting up some content for the "Car guys" among us.
> 
> Here is a video of a drag race between a road legal Tesla Model S and the $1 Million+ Super cheap auto V8 super car.
> 
> (it drags two cars, one road legal and one super car)





Yes, that is insane alright.

More than a match for an Arnage too.


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

Let me ask you a very simple question chronos: 

If australia's yearly rainfall, say, quadrupled from here on out, what infrastructure (drains, rivers etc) do you think the government would need to build to deal with it?


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Yes there is a neutral.
> 
> but also there is less moving parts, so the are more reliable, also Tesla’s come with free road side assistance for the life of the vehicle.



I only say that because I had to push an old guy on an electric scooter once. He didn't know how to disengage the motor and it was like pushing a concrete block up a hill.
I pushed him about 600 metres into a servo and bolted.


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Let me ask you a very simple question chronos:
> 
> If australia's yearly rainfall, say, quadrupled from here on out, what infrastructure (drains, rivers etc) do you think the government would need to build to deal with it?




Oh that is fantastic !!! Have you always been able to *troll* like that or did you receive special lessons ?
Please share !

And of course we can all wait for a few minutes while the undisputed Master of the Universe finds  a fresh envelope and resharpens his pencil to  give us the definitive, unimpeachable answer to that very perspicuous  query. Shouldn't take long now .  The big question of course is 

"How many nuclear reactors will we need to build to address that critical totally overlooked issue "

Well done .


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Being Electric Cars I presume they come with a cigar lighter.
> 
> Or does it interfere with the circuitry to divert the power to a lighter?




Thinking about it, I can only recall seeing someone use a lighter in a car for the purpose of actually lighting a cigarette or cigar maybe once or twice in my life.

Even when smoking was more common than it is now, very few used those lighters for that purpose at least in my experience.

You are perhaps an exception there?


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I'm going to run out of popcorn and Panadol if this keeps up.
> 
> gg




This is break time while Chronos hunts for a new envelope.  You've got 10minutes to get your supplies in.
Meanwhile you can ponder whether it would make sense to make your Arnage electric. 

I reckon it would be unique, uber cool and probably a very shrewd way to minimise future maintenance costs. And I think it would actually improve the value of the car.


----------



## rederob (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Let me ask you a very simple question chronos:
> 
> If australia's yearly rainfall, say, quadrupled from here on out, what infrastructure (drains, rivers etc) do you think the government would need to build to deal with it?



Come on @over9k!
Where's you KPMG Report?
I want facts .


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Oh that is fantastic !!! Have you always been able to *troll* like that or did you receive special lessons ?
> Please share !
> 
> And of course we can all wait for a few minutes while the undisputed Master of the Universe finds  a fresh envelope and resharpens his pencil to  give us the definitive, unimpeachable answer to that very perspicuous  query. Shouldn't take long now .  The big question of course is
> ...



I'm actually legitimately concerned he's going to find some study or whatever and quote its results. 

What do you reckon the odds of that happening are, 60/40?


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I'm going to run out of popcorn and Panadol if this keeps up.
> 
> gg



You genuinely don't know whether to laugh or cry do you?


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

basilio said:


> This is break time while Chronos hunts for a new envelope.  You've got 10minutes to get your supplies in.
> Meanwhile you can ponder whether it would make sense to make your Arnage electric.
> 
> I reckon it would be unique, uber cool and probably a very shrewd way to minimise future maintenance costs. And I think it would actually improve the value of the car.



After I get au fait with all these Cloud and Defence companies and their charts look less like a morse code message. 

gg


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (19 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, that is insane alright.
> 
> More than a match for an Arnage too.



So common @SirRumpole 

One never attempts to match an Arnage with anything.

gg


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> In the interests on putting up some content for the "Car guys" among us.
> 
> Here is a video of a drag race between a road legal Tesla Model S and the $1 Million+ Super cheap auto V8 super car.
> 
> (it drags two cars, one road legal and one super car)




For those with an electrical background, it isnt about the grunt, its about how long you can keep grunting.


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Let me ask you a very simple question chronos:
> 
> If australia's yearly rainfall, say, quadrupled from here on out, what infrastructure (drains, rivers etc) do you think the government would need to build to deal with it?



dams


----------



## rederob (19 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> For those with an electrical background, it isnt about the grunt, its about how long you can keep grunting.



Probably depends on who is changing the light globe and if it's a screw in.
Sir Garpal will know.


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> dams



Well that would be a GOOD idea, but a NEEDED one is a different thing frog. I'm talking just purely to deal with all the water now pouring from the heavens/making sure we don't all get flooded.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Well that would be a GOOD idea, but a NEEDED one is a different thing frog. I'm talking just purely to deal with all the water now pouring from the heavens/making sure we don't all get flooded.




Nice analogy.


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Well that would be a GOOD idea, but a NEEDED one is a different thing frog. I'm talking just purely to deal with all the water now pouring from the heavens/making sure we don't all get flooded.



I know and I understand the difference between peak and average...
living in qld, this is especially relevant as an example as our above average rainfall is usually  just a couple of torrential rain events often coupled to cyclones around(well within 2000 km)
The key issues as i mentioned is that in the residential areas we will see a need between 6PM and 6AM with is basically a 12h window with the first 3 h of heavy demands for AC, cooking etc in QLd at least
Unless no one works anymore?
All on jobkeeper to save the grid...;-)


----------



## moXJO (19 July 2020)

Developers will get caught short that haven't allowed for mass adoption. Not as simple as just plugging into a power point in a block of units. No doubt the charging will be throttled similar to internet via a management system. Substations would also need to be upgraded.

Do I have to pay to charge an EV?
If I didn't, couldn't I steal enough to run my household? Obviously if I worked at an office.


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I know and I understand the difference between peak and average...



Yes but it's clear that chronos doesn't, hence my question to him


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (19 July 2020)

Many of the posters here are in Plato's cave. Go get an education.


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Many of the posters here are in Plato's cave. Go get an education.



He says, to the guy that's literally been trained to perform the calculations he's trying to make his claim with. 

Answer the question.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> He says, to the guy that's literally been trained to perform the calculations he's trying to make his claim with.
> 
> Answer the question.



You are definitely in Plato's cave;



The IEA report has done the calculations, don't worry about my overnight, back on the napkin numbers.

Stay in the cave, I don't care.


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You are definitely in Plato's cave;
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I asked you a question about rainfall. I'd like you to answer it. Answer it any way you like - calculations, reports, witchcraft, anything.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I asked you a question about rainfall. I'd like you to answer it. Answer it any way you like - calculations, reports, witchcraft, anything.



Going off our discussions so far, the reports that you write wouldn't be worth the paper they are written on.

Start a new thread on rainfall if you like.


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Going off our discussions so far, the reports that you write wouldn't be worth the paper they are written on.
> 
> Start a new thread on rainfall if you like.



I haven't written a report on it. I'm not going to compare it to a report I've personally written or something like that. This isn't a trick question. 

Please, answer the question.


----------



## Sir Burr (19 July 2020)

So what do you reckon about this Osbourne Effect? I'm not interested in buying another ICE car and will wait for an EV that is similar on price.



Although in the mean time, not keen on getting bent over to pay $1700 for a dealer water pump replacement on a VW. A bit of back and forth ended up $600. That crap will be gone!


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

You bought a VW - there's your problem right there. 

Second problem: Going to the stealership. 


Source: I'm a car guy.


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

Sir Burr said:


> So what do you reckon about this Osbourne Effect? I'm not interested in buying another ICE car and will wait for an EV that is similar on price.
> 
> 
> 
> Although in the mean time, not keen on getting bent over to pay $1700 for a dealer water pump replacement on a VW. A bit of back and forth ended up $600. That crap will be gone!




Powerful stuff isn't it ?

Yes this is a clearly Tesla funded program.  But that doesn't change the reality of what they are saying in terms of the future of cars. It will only be EV (or perhaps hydrogen ?) within a relatively short period of time.  I suspect the announcement and production  of the  cost effective million mile battery in September will be the hammer blow.

In practical terms other car makers will survive. They will just have to move very quickly to  EV cars. But the challenge to make this profitable is still there.

We shouldn't see Tesla as some sort of munificent God in this deal.  They are there to make a big buck. They too will find ways to  control their product and extract maximum value.  But this is the future. IMV.


----------



## basilio (19 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You are definitely in Plato's cave;
> 
> 
> ..
> ...





What a head spinner we have here...

 Chronos trotting out the Allegory of Platos Cave as he steadfastly attempts to "prove" that EV cars are wildly expensive in terms of energy infrastructure which in any case should be 3 squillion nuclear power stations.

*And yet it just isn't*. And this  economic and physical reality has been repeatedly demonstrated across almost all people who have direct experience in the field.

Plato has a point.  Interestingly enough  a world that finally recognizes that clean renewable energy is the only way to proceed versus  polluting, planet destroying finite fossil fuels  is definitly a Plato moment.

And whatever one thinks there is no way Plato would countenance making 1 and 1 equal some fantastical amount - simply to justify some preconceived vision.


----------



## Sir Burr (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> You bought a VW - there's your problem right there.




So no to ID.3?

BTW $50 extra for genuine and 2 year warranty clinched it over the VW expert down the road. Was an easy choice.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2020)

I think Chronos is copping a bit more flack than he deserves, what he is saying has merit, it is just everyone is jumping on like stacks on the mill.
The electric car is going to arrive and of that there is no doubt, however what Chronos says is correct also, it will change the demand profile but how that is managed is the key.
The problem is, just replacing existing power generation which is available on call 24/7 at the press of a button, with an intermittent source of energy and a finite amount of storage is a huge excercise.
Just meeting the existing demand will be incredibly difficult, add to that a rapid take up of increased demand due to electric car charging and the problem compounds.
The electric cars will eventually be a part of the storage answer, but initially they will just add to the demand problem, because there wont be enough to actually coordinate the charging regime.
An electric car on a fast charger is like a really big air conditioner switching on, lets not forget it wasn't long ago, that remotely operated switches had to be fitted to all air conditioners sold in Australia so they could be switched off if the system required it.
Like I've said before and I'm sure smurf will correct me if I'm wrong, this isn't going to happen quickly, but it has to be done correctly. There is no quick fixes if it is stuffed up, it has to be progressive steady and technically robust, it can't be done seat of the pants.
Just my opinion.


----------



## qldfrog (19 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think Chronos is copping a bit more flack than he deserves, what he is saying has merit, it is just everyone is jumping on like stacks on the mill.
> The electric car is going to arrive and of that there is no doubt, however what Chronos says is correct also, it will change the demand profile but how that is managed is the key.
> The problem is, just replacing existing power generation which is available on call 24/7 at the press of a button, with an intermittent source of energy and a finite amount of storage is a huge excercise.
> Just meeting the existing demand will be incredibly difficult, add to that a rapid take up of increased demand due to electric car charging and the problem compounds.
> ...



Agree more a matter of form than substance, being technically realist is an issue for some and so the backlash but his error is a pretty insulting style.my view only,sadly he joined my list of ignore
Will check in a while


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2020)

A good article on actually taking an electric car for a run in country NSW, well written sounds accurate and unbiased.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/m...t/news-story/fd55092b12709d65da34c4bbf8153937


----------



## over9k (19 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I think Chronos is copping a bit more flack than he deserves, what he is saying has merit, it is just everyone is jumping on like stacks on the mill.
> The electric car is going to arrive and of that there is no doubt, however what Chronos says is correct also, it will change the demand profile but how that is managed is the key.
> The problem is, just replacing existing power generation which is available on call 24/7 at the press of a button, with an intermittent source of energy and a finite amount of storage is a huge excercise.
> Just meeting the existing demand will be incredibly difficult, add to that a rapid take up of increased demand due to electric car charging and the problem compounds.
> ...




I think he's realised he's cocked up and has dug his hole so far he needs to dig it back to plato.

He does not understand the very report he's using as his hill to die on. 



Sir Burr said:


> So no to ID.3?
> 
> BTW $50 extra for genuine and 2 year warranty clinched it over the VW expert down the road. Was an easy choice.




Aftermarket parts are usually higher quality for lower cost. Hate to break it to you man but car dealerships make far more money servicing their cars & selling the parts for $ridiculous markup than they do selling the cars.

It's like how printers are cheap but the money is made in selling you the ink for 10,000% markup.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Agree more a matter of form than substance, being technically realist is an issue for some and so the backlash but his error is a pretty insulting style.my view only,sadly he joined my list of ignore




I'll post something more detailed in a more relevant thread, let's keep this one for things with wheels on them as others have said, but I'll simply say this now.

I've never met anyone of reasonably normal intelligence who can't grasp the basic concepts when explained in layman's terms. 

So long as you grasp that electricity has to be produced in real time as it is consumed, AC power cannot itself be stored, at best we can store the means to produce it, then beyond that it's simply a numbers game. So long as the ability to generate is always equal to or higher than actual consumption, and the network itself isn't overloaded, then it all works. 

Since consumption is variable and supply has to be able to meet the peak, there's an opportunity to increase the use of existing infrastructure by adding load outside peak times. That's when water gets heated or in some areas pumped and it's when EV charging would ideally take place.

As a concept it's the same as the more familiar one of roads. During the commuter rush roads are at or over capacity in many areas but even in the inner city, you could certainly put more traffic through in the middle of the night without any real issue. Roads aren't running at capacity most of the time, it's only during the peaks when they are in most places.

I'll post more in an appropriate thread.


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Aftermarket parts are usually higher quality for lower cost. Hate to break it to you man but car dealerships make far more money servicing their cars & selling the parts for $ridiculous markup than they do selling the cars.
> 
> It's like how printers are cheap but the money is made in selling you the ink for 10,000% markup.



Never truer words said.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll post something more detailed in a more relevant thread




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-future-of-energy-generation-and-storage.29842/page-221

From that post which is rather long:



> So that's a real example for a day when Vic was very close to the limit, the weather was properly hot, but there was some wind generation running and coal+gas+hydro combined worked a bit better than should be expected and no major drama resulted.
> 
> Even on that day, just two hours after the peak demand had dropped ~1000 MW, after 3 hours it was down ~2000 MW and after 4 hours it was down ~3000 MW from the peak. So there's plenty of opportunity to charge EV's overnight even on an extreme day when supply was very tight at the peak.




The detail and numbers are in the other thread for those interested in the maths but in short, there's big drama in generating power to charge EV's even in Victoria, the state that's in the worst position at present, so long as it's not adding to peak demand.


----------



## tinhat (20 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-future-of-energy-generation-and-storage.29842/page-221
> 
> From that post which is rather long:
> 
> ...




Save the maths. I'm reading "big drama" an "Victoria"; how do I back-up my super into that?


----------



## qldfrog (20 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/the-future-of-energy-generation-and-storage.29842/page-221
> 
> From that post which is rather long:
> 
> ...



You probably meant no drama


----------



## qldfrog (20 July 2020)

I am more worried by the last mile than actual overall production 
Very very similar actually to internet delivery issues and NBN
But let's stick to the wheeled ones.or the fact you can get quasi free ev on lease in the EU


----------



## Value Collector (20 July 2020)

Sir Burr said:


> So what do you reckon about this Osbourne Effect? I'm not interested in buying another ICE car and will wait for an EV that is similar on price.
> 
> 
> 
> Although in the mean time, not keen on getting bent over to pay $1700 for a dealer water pump replacement on a VW. A bit of back and forth ended up $600. That crap will be gone!





Osborne effect is true for me.

I decided back in 2006 that I was going to wait for an electric car, after seeing the documentary “who killed the electric car” and “revenge of the electric car”.

In 2006 I told everyone that I wouldn’t replace my existing car till I could get electric, it took 13 years but that’s what I did.


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I am more worried by the last mile than actual overall production
> Very very similar actually to internet delivery issues and NBN
> But let's stick to the wheeled ones.or the fact you can get quasi free ev on lease in the EU



I would think as EV penetration becomes larger, building codes will be changed to make solar/battery combinations a prerequisite in the building codes. 
But the longer that is put off, the cheaper the installation would be, so it isn't likely to happen for quite some time unless it is introduced to help the storage issue for the grid. 
Also the price of electric vehicles has to drop and a supply of second hand ones has to develop so poorer people can buy one, that then brings in the problem of replacement batteries in older cars.
There is no point selling a car, that the battery is at the end of its useful life, so recycling and replacement technology has to be developed.
It wont all happen overnight.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I think he's realised he's cocked up and has dug his hole so far he needs to dig it back to plato.
> 
> He does not understand the very report he's using as his hill to die on.
> 
> ...




I haven't cocked anything up. All I have done, is highlight the significant challenges and limitations to move to a significant EV uptake.

It is you that have no clue about the report, your claim that the electrical consumption of EVs will not require additional capacity is just nonsense.

The reports speak for itself, and they recommend that governments begin to act now.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 July 2020)

basilio said:


> What a head spinner we have here...
> 
> Chronos trotting out the Allegory of Platos Cave as he steadfastly attempts to "prove" that EV cars are wildly expensive in terms of energy infrastructure which in any case should be 3 squillion nuclear power stations.
> 
> ...




You are definitely in the cave 

1110TWh by 2030, for 30% global EV uptake, concentrated in China and the EU, is a significant amount of electrical consumption. No surprise China are building and plan to build 100s of nuclear powerplants.


----------



## over9k (20 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> It is you that have no clue about the report, your claim that the electrical consumption of EVs will not require additional capacity is just nonsense.




I've never claimed that. Not once. 

Are you going to answer the question about rainfall or not?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 July 2020)

over9k said:


> I've never claimed that. Not once.
> 
> Are you going to answer the question about rainfall or not?




You said: off-peak would be sufficient enough for the electrical consumption requirements of EV uptake moving forward over the coming decades.

I said: that we will require significant additional installed electrical capacity.

You want to talk about rainfall? Why? What about it?

I am actually a bit busy; happy to have a sensible and rational discussion, don't have time for trolling and mud slinging at the moment.


----------



## fiftyeight (20 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I am actually a bit busy; happy to have a sensible and rational discussion, *don't have time for trolling* and mud slinging at the moment.




For the sake a good thread can everyone stop feeding the troll?


----------



## fiftyeight (20 July 2020)

Not cars, but close enough.

One of these has made its way on to my wish list. Bit more tame than a dirt bike (I was never that good of a rider), less maintenance, no noise issues so much better in 'suburban bush' and can be registered which helps as we are a single car house hold


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 July 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> For the sake a good thread can everyone stop feeding the troll?




Exactly, stay in the cave.

I was happy to discuss the future of EVs, you just want an echo chamber.


----------



## Value Collector (20 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You said: off-peak would be sufficient
> 
> I said: that we will require significant additional installed electrical capacity.




As more and more capacity gets installed to deal with a growing population and peak summer time use of aircons etc, it is a literal truth that off peak capacity will also grow, especially for the rest of the year when those aircons are off or idling.

but that is seriously my last comment to you on this subject, I have pointed out that I disagree with your analysis while also not disagreeing with the KPMG stuff.

No body here is saying that we won’t need more capacity in total over the next 26 years, we just don’t agree that it is an arguement against EV’s.

—————
So unless you want to talk about something else, or you want to talk about interesting details about how this added capacity can be achieved in the next 26 years as the demand grows, then I don’t really want to engage anymore.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> As more and more capacity gets installed to deal with a growing population and peak summer time use of aircons etc, it is a literal truth that off peak capacity will also grow, especially for the rest of the year when those aircons are off or idling.
> 
> but that is seriously my last comment to you on this subject, I have pointed out that I disagree with your analysis while also not disagreeing with the KPMG stuff.
> 
> ...




I won't post into this thread anymore if we are all happy to move on.


----------



## rederob (20 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I was happy to discuss the future of EVs, you just want an echo chamber.



As more renewables are added to the grid the present concept of "off peak" will change.  Time of use billing can further "balance" the changes in load.
The principal issue going forward will be how "storage" is integrated into the energy mix, as adding extra capacity via renewables - because it is already the cheapest form of generation - can be done in a canter, despite your unsound views on that matter.
In the USA and some other countries, new and replacement capacity via renewables must be bid with a storage component.  We don't have such a policy.
If this was a discussion taking place in Europe, I would have greater concerns than here, as Australia, if it's smart, can do with renewables what the Saudis did for decades with oil.


----------



## over9k (20 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> You said: off-peak would be sufficient enough for the electrical consumption requirements of EV uptake moving forward over the coming decades.
> 
> I said: that we will require significant additional installed electrical capacity.
> 
> ...




No I didn't. I said the KPMG report is deeply flawed due to the assumptions it is based on. 

Answer the question about the rainfall. 



Chronos-Plutus said:


> Exactly, stay in the cave.
> 
> I was happy to discuss the future of EVs, you just want an echo chamber.




"You just want an echo chamber", coming from the guy that hasn't actually addressed or answered a single question or point I've made.


----------



## fiftyeight (20 July 2020)

Dude from Nikola, Trevor Milton, just did a podcast on Tesla Charts. TC is big in the TESLAQ Twitter community. Fancy that aye, following and listening to someone with a Twitter account dedicated to bringing down Tesla???


Very compelling argument for why hydrogen is better for long range trucking. He is also a fan of EV tech in the right application. Nice to hear someone with nuanced argument who realises the most likely solution will be a combination of technologies.


Following Trevor’s line of reasoning, batt tech would have to make some major leaps forward for it to be superior to hydrogen. Few things I want to follow up, but he tells a good story


https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/tcs-chartcast-teslacharts-georgia-orwell-uYqMyJTiQKN/


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> Dude from Nikola, Trevor Milton, just did a podcast on Tesla Charts. TC is big in the TESLAQ Twitter community. Fancy that aye, following and listening to someone with a Twitter account dedicated to bringing down Tesla???
> 
> 
> Very compelling argument for why hydrogen is better for long range trucking. He is also a fan of EV tech in the right application. Nice to hear someone with nuanced argument who realises the most likely solution will be a combination of technologies.
> ...



All boils back to energy density, as the guy says, there is an application for both batteries and hydrogen.
Batteries are great for metropolitan light load work, Hydrogen great for heavy load long haul work. Just my opinion


----------



## over9k (20 July 2020)

That's not exactly new info though - it's range that's killing the uptake of electric cars.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> You probably meant no drama



Ah yes, there's a "no" missing there. 

It should read "there's *no* big drama......".

Sorry - I typed a lot of words and missed one out, the lack of which changes the meaning of it all. Oops.....


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No body here is saying that we won’t need more capacity in total over the next 26 years, we just don’t agree that it is an arguement against EV’s.



This absolutely.


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2020)

Well @Value Collector here is a story to put a smile on your face.

https://www.caradvice.com.au/850246/tesla-owner-lock-thief-inside-car/


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 July 2020)

over9k said:


> No I didn't. I said the KPMG report is deeply flawed due to the assumptions it is based on.
> 
> Answer the question about the rainfall.
> 
> ...




That is your opinion that the assumptions are flawed, and I don't have to agree with your opinion.

What questions are you taking about?

Either way, we will not be seeing a 100% EV uptake, in Australia, until well past mid century, probably late century, provided EVs aren't replaced with some other technology. So throttle back you EV expectations or start buying more stock that make EVs. Either way I don't give a dam, as long as the grid isn't compromised with EV white anting, that people pay their own way for their vehicles, and the 10s of billions of dollars in fuel taxes are plugged with EV taxes.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 July 2020)

rederob said:


> As more renewables are added to the grid the present concept of "off peak" will change.  Time of use billing can further "balance" the changes in load.
> The principal issue going forward will be how "storage" is integrated into the energy mix, as adding extra capacity via renewables - because it is already the cheapest form of generation - can be done in a canter, despite your unsound views on that matter.
> In the USA and some other countries, new and replacement capacity via renewables must be bid with a storage component.  We don't have such a policy.
> If this was a discussion taking place in Europe, I would have greater concerns than here, as Australia, if it's smart, can do with renewables what the Saudis did for decades with oil.




I wouldn't call it just a 'problem' in the EU, I would call it an impending disaster.

We won't see a 100% EV uptake in Australia, until well past the mid century, likely into the late century, as per AEMO forecasts. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be monitoring the EV uptake to ensure it remains within parameters that will not compromise our grid.

I initially posted on the enormous scale of electrical capacity required for a 100% EV uptake, to bring some reality to the discussion, which unfortunately shattered the dreams of emotional posters like Basilio.


----------



## rederob (20 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> We won't see a 100% EV uptake in Australia, until well past the mid century, likely into the late century, as per AEMO forecasts. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be monitoring the EV uptake to ensure it remains within parameters that will not compromise our grid.
> I initially posted on the enormous scale of electrical capacity required for a 100% EV uptake, to bring some reality to the discussion, which unfortunately shattered the dreams of emotional posters like Basilio.



First, read the links provided that show EV penetration is under regularly review, a point you choose to ignore.
Second, the issues confronting our grid have been explained ad nauseum.  EVs are a minor issue, and that's only because we have yet to get to a viable stage for widespread EV ownership due to a sub-par charging network. That's a work in progress rather than a concern, especially as we don't have the EVs available on the showroom floor.
Third, additional capacity is not a problem - this has been explained as well.
Finally, the only problem that posters have is getting you to appreciate that accommodating EVs won't be a problem well into the future.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 July 2020)

rederob said:


> First, read the links provided that show EV penetration is under regularly review, a point you choose to ignore.
> Second, the issues confronting our grid have been explained ad nauseum.  EVs are a minor issue, and that's only because we have yet to get to a viable stage for widespread EV ownership due to a sub-par charging network. That's a work in progress rather than a concern, especially as we don't have the EVs available on the showroom floor.
> Third, additional capacity is not a problem - this has been explained as well.
> Finally, the only problem that posters have is getting you to appreciate that accommodating EVs won't be a problem well into the future.




I would like to see a working paper, that focuses on EV scenario uptake into the future within Australia, from the Chief Scientist's Office.

EVs are not a minor issue, as explained in the KPMG and IEA reports.

Additional capacity is a problem if not managed, as the EU will find out.

EVs will be problem and a potential disaster for our grid if not managed.

Agree to disagree. I am not retired, so I am a bit too busy to keep this circular argument going ad infinitum.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (20 July 2020)

I am putting this thread on ignore and moving to the other electric thread. I am not interested the hobby aspect of electric vehicles or the emotional arguments.


----------



## Value Collector (20 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> All boils back to energy density, as the guy says, there is an application for both batteries and hydrogen.
> Batteries are great for metropolitan light load work, Hydrogen great for heavy load long haul work. Just my opinion




I think battery Electric trucks will be great for long haul to, the cost of charging will be significantly less than hydrogen, and with the legally mandated rest stop times, charging won’t add any time.

Also, regen braking significantly reduces energy usage, hydrogen fuel cycles can’t regen.

take a look at this chart from my Tesla where regen means mountains don’t add any extra energy usage, and and saves brake pads (remember hydrogen trucks won’t have exhaust brakes or regen braking)


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I think battery Electric trucks will be great for long haul to, the cost of charging will be significantly less than hydrogen, and with the legally mandated rest stop times, charging won’t add any time.
> 
> Also, regen braking significantly reduces energy usage, hydrogen fuel cycles can’t regen.
> 
> take a look at this chart from my Tesla where regen means mountains don’t add any extra energy usage, and and saves brake pads (remember hydrogen trucks won’t have exhaust brakes or regen braking)



Time will tell, but there isn't a lot of regenerative braking on the nullarbor, for a B triple carrying 180 ton of cargo and a hell of a lot of wind resistance, also the same applies for trains not many down hills for regeneration.
That is where the energy density really comes into play.


----------



## basilio (20 July 2020)

I'm not so sure a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car can't regen.
These cars are basically electric cars with the electricity provided by a fuel cell that uses stored hydrogen.But it is still driven through an electric motor..

If a large truck was powered by a hydrogen fuel cell why wouldn't it also have a reasonable size battery pack that could store and release energy produced  through regen ?


----------



## basilio (20 July 2020)

For those looking for a really cool  retro EV experience.
*VW Microbus EV Conversion Merges Powertrain Tech With Old-School Cool*


The 60s are alive and well.



By Roberto Baldwin
 Mar 23, 2020


Volkswagen

*Volkswagen and eClassics have partnered to bring the e-BULLI EV Microbus conversion to life. *
*The conversion uses VW electric components. *
*The starting cost of $70,100 requires you already have a Microbus.*
The electric version of the classic VW Microbus has been on the horizon, but not one quite like this. Last summer at its Innovation and Engineering Center, Volkswagen unveiled a Type 2 Microbus that was converted to an electric vehicle. They called it the Type 20, and it was amazing. Now the Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles (VWCV) team has partnered with eClassics to bring an electrified 1966 T1 version of that bus to life.

Built with VW electric components, the e-BULLI conversion picks up where the Type 20 concept left off. (Quick history lesson: in Germany, Bulli was the nickname of the Microbus.) The VWCV and eClassic have removed the four-cylinder boxer engine and replaced it with a single motor that generates 82 horsepower and 156 lb-ft of torque. Those numbers may seem low, but they're actually double that of the original powertrain. The top speed is a blazing electronically limited 81 mph.



Volkswagen
Inside, the shifter has been moved from the steering column to the center console and now includes a B setting for adjustable braking recuperation. It's also home to a stop/start button for the electric system. In the dash, an analog speedometer keeps the retro feeling alive but is augmented with a digital display that shows information such as range, if the car is plugged into a charger, and if the parking brake is on.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a31898210/vw-microbus-ev-conversion-ebulli/


----------



## over9k (20 July 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> That is your opinion that the assumptions are flawed, and I don't have to agree with your opinion.
> 
> What questions are you taking about?




Sure, but you don't understand why I'm saying what I'm saying, which is the problem. You're dismissing something without understanding it, and accepting something else (the report) whilst also not understanding that. 

The post about rainfall. If australia's rainfall quadrupled, what infrastructure would the government need to build (drains, rivers, whatever) to deal with it? Answer the question any way you like.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 July 2020)

Governments could move the issue along by requiring carparks to provider X number of dedicated EV parking spots with chargers per total spaces. At least it would show that government was interested in the EV concept and was prepared to move things along.


----------



## over9k (20 July 2020)

Yeah but that would require a billion nuclear power stations and wires & stuff rumpole. 

Or something.


----------



## over9k (20 July 2020)

Also, ******* lol. Chronos is arguing with me in another thread about another topic I also have a masters degree in. 

This dude's inability to recognise who/what he is talking to is amazing.


----------



## Value Collector (20 July 2020)

basilio said:


> I'm not so sure a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car can't regen.
> These cars are basically electric cars with the electricity provided by a fuel cell that uses stored hydrogen.But it is still driven through an electric motor..
> 
> If a large truck was powered by a hydrogen fuel cell why wouldn't it also have a reasonable size battery pack that could store and release energy produced  through regen ?




By the time you have a hydrogen tank + a fuel cell + a battery to capture regen you may as well just get rid of the hydrogen tank and fuel cell and just get a bigger battery.


----------



## sptrawler (20 July 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> Not cars, but close enough.
> 
> One of these has made its way on to my wish list. Bit more tame than a dirt bike (I was never that good of a rider), less maintenance, no noise issues so much better in 'suburban bush' and can be registered which helps as we are a single car house hold



Here's another option fiftyeight, if you want the motorcycle experience.
Could be ideal for @SirRumpole for the country town run around.
Best of all it's Australian, sort of.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/too-cool-for-fuel-review-of-fonzarelli-arthur-3-electric-scooter-78208/


----------



## Value Collector (20 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> That is where the energy density really comes into play.




How does energy density give hydrogen an edge over full electric on the nullarbor?

The Tesla semi has a range of over 800km, so if it left its origin with a full battery it can travel the first 1600 km with just one 45 min charging stop from there another 1 hour of charging would complete the journey from Adelaide to Perth?

how many rest stops do trucks normally make on the nullarbor? I bet they are stopping routinely already for much longer than they would take to charge.

Also, having trucking transporting diesel or hydrogen out to fuel stops in not efficient, when you could just have solar panels out in the desert running the charging locations.

imagine a few of these solar panel and battery setups fueling our highways rather Than tanker trucks.


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> How does energy density give hydrogen an edge over full electric on the nullarbor?
> 
> The Tesla semi has a range of over 800km, so if it left its origin with a full battery it can travel the first 1600 km with just one 45 min charging stop from there another 1 hour of charging would complete the journey from Adelaide to Perth?
> 
> ...



I'm not saying it isn't feasible, it is just from what I have read the weight and size of the batteries required reduce the payload and space considerably.
Whereas with hydrogen/fuel cell, the actual storage requirement is far less, not that it actually bothers me either way.
I'm sure the trucking businesses will adopt whichever fuel gives them the best financial outcome.
With regard the nullarbor, I was making reference to the regenerative braking you mentioned, you would get a bit going down Eucla pass, but lose it going up Madura pass a couple of hundred k's further on.


----------



## fiftyeight (21 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> How does energy density give hydrogen an edge over full electric on the nullarbor?
> 
> The Tesla semi has a range of over 800km, so if it left its origin with a full battery it can travel the first 1600 km with just one 45 min charging stop from there another 1 hour of charging would complete the journey from Adelaide to Perth?
> 
> ...




Have you listened to the podcast? Trevor from Nikola mentions a number of times, different situations will require different solutions, and Nikola are targeting situations where hydrogen has advantages. The nullarbor is a pretty specific situation to base a general case off.

The only thing that matters in the trucking world is cost/mile, which energy density obvs is a part of, but there are other factors.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> how many rest stops do trucks normally make on the nullarbor? I bet they are stopping routinely already for much longer than they would take to charge.



I've only done the trip twice (once in each direction) but there were definitely at least some trucks parked overnight at roadhouses.


----------



## fiftyeight (21 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Here's another option fiftyeight, if you want the motorcycle experience.
> Could be ideal for @SirRumpole for the country town run around.
> Best of all it's Australian, sort of.
> 
> https://reneweconomy.com.au/too-cool-for-fuel-review-of-fonzarelli-arthur-3-electric-scooter-78208/




Have you been speaking to my wife? She was NOT a fan of the Sur-Ron. 

I might think I am 21 but my body definitely does not bounce like it used to, as proven while snowboarding in Japan last Jan


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've only done the trip twice (once in each direction) but there were definitely at least some trucks parked overnight at roadhouses.



I've done it 16 times, including twice on a motorbike, flying is a lot nicer.


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## Smurf1976 (21 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I've done it 16 times, including twice on a motorbike, flying is a lot nicer.



I recall that there's a few wider sections of the road marked as an airstrip.

At least that's how I recall it. Only for small planes though....


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## Value Collector (21 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've only done the trip twice (once in each direction) but there were definitely at least some trucks parked overnight at roadhouses.




I haven’t done the Nullabor, but I have driven across a bit of America.

what surprised me in America was I saw trucks parked up overnight that were plugged into power sockets.

They were standard diesel trucks, but they plug into electricity to run heating and cooling while the driver sleeps, so they don’t have to run their engines.

If they are doing that they could also be charging batteries.

fast chargers could have trucks back on the roads in 30 mins (lunch and pee break)

slower chargers could charge them while the drivers shower and have a sleep for a few hours. 

but yeah I think we could all agree charge times aren’t a problem when you only need 30 mins in the first 1600kms and 30mins for every 800km after that.


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2020)

Interesting article on the "smart grid".

I wonder how far Australia is going down this road now and in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

Edit Delete Report Bookmark


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## over9k (21 July 2020)

Can we just take a minute to talk about the absolute absurdity that is tesla? 

It rallied ANOTHER 10% last night.


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I recall that there's a few wider sections of the road marked as an airstrip.
> 
> At least that's how I recall it. Only for small planes though....



They are to facilitate the flying doctor plane, for landing and take off, if it is required.


----------



## basilio (21 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> By the time you have a hydrogen tank + a fuel cell + a battery to capture regen you may as well just get rid of the hydrogen tank and fuel cell and just get a bigger battery.




Don't know.  I wasn't thinking of a full battery pack but rather a super capacitor or  a 10kw unit that was specifically intended for absorbing and reusing regen energy. On a big truck that wouldn't amount to much and the amount of energy it could recycle would be substantial.


----------



## over9k (21 July 2020)

It's the charge/discharge cycles that kill batteries. Ask any tradie that uses his tools all day, then charges the batteries overnight, to then use them the next day, to then charge them the following night etc etc.

At a commercial level, like everything, they become consumables.


----------



## qldfrog (21 July 2020)

over9k said:


> It's the charge/discharge cycles that kill batteries. Ask any tradie that uses his tools all day, then charges the batteries overnight, to then use them the next day, to then charge them the following night etc etc.
> 
> At a commercial level, like everything, they become consumables.



True, hopefully the memory effect will be reduced.last tesla announcement about revolutionary battery was about that with unlimited..well nearly... life


----------



## sptrawler (21 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> True, hopefully the memory effect will be reduced.last tesla announcement about revolutionary battery was about that with unlimited..well nearly... life



The holy grail, they can't even make small ones, that fit in phones last forever.


----------



## Value Collector (21 July 2020)

over9k said:


> Can we just take a minute to talk about the absolute absurdity that is tesla?
> 
> It rallied ANOTHER 10% last night.




Yeah, I don’t own any stock yet (apart from the index).

but it has been super strong.

The thing I am struggling to figure out is whether this price is absurd or not, because they are growing into a huge business now.

So far they have 3 operational factories.

1, a Factory in Fremont California producing Model S, 3, X, Y.

2, The Giga factory in Nevada producing Batteries for Fremont factory and their power storage business.

3, Chinese gigafactory producing model 3 and batteries together for Chinese market.

+ Growth project such as

1, German gigafactory under construction that will produce vehicles and batteries for the European market.

2, New York factory that will produce their solar panels.

3, Expansions or possible second USA factory to produce Tesla Semi and Cyber Truck which already have preorders totaling years of production.

then there is some blue sky future growth, such as the eventual robo-taxi network, growth in battery storage business and other innoventions that haven’t Even been imagineered yet. 

——————

So I have been following the companies for years as an interested consumer, but never bit the bullet and purchased stock, but if things go right we could be looking at the company that will dominate the future growth in the industry.

Tesla’s might eventually be the IPhone and everyone else becomes Nokia, and one of them will be Samsung.


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## Value Collector (21 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Don't know.  I wasn't thinking of a full battery pack but rather a super capacitor or  a 10kw unit that was specifically intended for absorbing and reusing regen energy. On a big truck that wouldn't amount to much and the amount of energy it could recycle would be substantial.




maybe, but the battery would have to be pretty big to be able to absorb a big surge in power, a truck regen would be A pretty Big surge in power.

Even the regen in my Model 3 gets limited in strength until the battery is about 85%. 

but I guess it’s not impossible, but as I said I think pure electrics have a lot more benefits than people think.

some people say that the big batteries will reduce cargo carrying by a certain %, but think out the hydrogen and diesel models, they have to have a whole other trucking fleet carrying their fuel ahead of them so they can refuel.


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2020)

basilio said:
			
		

> Don't know. I wasn't thinking of a full battery pack but rather a super capacitor or a 10kw unit that was specifically intended for absorbing and reusing regen energy. On a big truck that wouldn't amount to much and the amount of energy it could recycle would be substantial.




As far as trucks go, especially interstate, we should be concentrating on getting freight off the roads and onto the rails, and building more intra state rail networks.

Why governments concentrate on building roads not rails is not such a real mystery, it's called road transport companies donating to political parties.


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## Garpal Gumnut (21 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> As far as trucks go, especially interstate, we should be concentrating on getting freight off the roads and onto the rails, and building more intra state rail networks.
> 
> Why governments concentrate on building roads not rails is not such a real mystery, it's called road transport companies donating to political parties.



An excellent point @SirRumpole .

And perhaps having people who cannot afford proper upmarket motors riding electric scooters. 

If as many people rode scooters as they do in the Orient there would be fewer cars on the road in Australia. 

gg


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2020)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> If as many people rode scooters as they do in the Orient there would be fewer cars on the road in Australia.




Or even if they took public transport ?

I'm sure they could arrange an Arnage rail car with cigar lighter for you.


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## Value Collector (21 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> As far as trucks go, especially interstate, we should be concentrating on getting freight off the roads and onto the rails, and building more intra state rail networks.
> 
> Why governments concentrate on building roads not rails is not such a real mystery, it's called road transport companies donating to political parties.




I agree with more rail freight, that’s something you notice in the USA as well, huge quantities of rail freight.

those double stacked shipping containers On huge trains look awesome winding there way through the country side, better than trucks.

Also, America’s Rails are all privately owned.


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I agree with more rail freight, that’s something you notice in the USA as well, huge quantities of rail freight.
> 
> those double stacked shipping containers On huge trains look awesome winding there way through the country side, better than trucks.
> 
> Also, America’s Rails are all privately owned.




So I guess I'm suggesting that electrification of railways is going to have more impact on reducing fossil fuel usage than encouraging electric cars.

Of course we can walk and chew gum at the same time, but the concept of electrifying the railways hasn't had much impact in the public's or politicians minds.

Less sexy than Teslas perhaps.


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## Value Collector (21 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So I guess I'm suggesting that electrification of railways is going to have more impact on reducing fossil fuel usage than encouraging electric cars.
> 
> Of course we can walk and chew gum at the same time, but the concept of electrifying the railways hasn't had much impact in the public's or politicians minds.
> 
> Less sexy than Teslas perhaps.




Well we need to do both, moving a tonne on rails uses a lot less fuel per mile than a diesel truck.

Check this out, - teaching trucks to use the rail ways.


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Well we need to do both, moving a tonne on rails uses a lot less fuel per mile than a diesel truck.
> 
> Check this out, - teaching trucks to use the rail ways.





Great idea.

I'm sure an enlarged version would be suitable for Mr Gumnut's Arnage.


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## over9k (21 July 2020)

There's a lot of stuff following this trend, though I'd replace small & large with "online" and "bricks & mortar". 

Electric cars will be no different.


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## qldfrog (22 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Or even if they took public transport ?
> 
> I'm sure they could arrange an Arnage rail car with cigar lighter for you.



Public transport is a city centric view of the world but electric scooters as in China a freedom licence.
Hard to envisage in Australia between helmet, speed limits on ebikes and power limits on scooters which need a motorbike licence if they are to be useful for  commutes
Noted that both @Garpal Gumnut and  @SirRumpole like the scooter idea.
Gentlemen, you are not confusing scooters and mobility scooters are you? 
Quite a frequent sight north of the Brisbane river...


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## SirRumpole (22 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Gentlemen, you are not confusing scooters and mobility scooters are you?




Not there yet Froggy.


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## qldfrog (22 July 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Not there yet Froggy.



Glad you saw the jest: I actually hesitated sending this, would it be received with the humor intended in the current time.
Moving the joke aside, electric mobility scooters and golf carts were the first widely used electric vehicles, and we saw initial battery progress :  deep cycle batteries etc


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## Garpal Gumnut (22 July 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Public transport is a city centric view of the world but electric scooters as in China a freedom licence.
> Hard to envisage in Australia between helmet, speed limits on ebikes and power limits on scooters which need a motorbike licence if they are to be useful for  commutes
> Noted that both @Garpal Gumnut and  @SirRumpole like the scooter idea.
> Gentlemen, you are not confusing scooters and mobility scooters are you?
> Quite a frequent sight north of the Brisbane river...



lol

gg


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## ducati916 (22 July 2020)

News:

_*EV investor craze continues.* *Tesla (NASDAQ: TSLA)* saw its market cap surge past $300 billion and investors are piling into other EV makers. Tesla’s shares have more than tripled this year. The market value of *Nikola Corp. (NASDAQ: NKLA)*, an electric truck startup, past *Ford (NYSE: F)* last month, although the company’s stock has since retreated. The trend shows that investors increasingly believe that EV era will arrive faster than previously thought. Carmakers are rushing to capture a slice of the future, with *GM (NYSE: GM)* recently announcing that it will develop 20 new EV models by 2023. Including hybrids, the global auto industry will add 350 new models in the next few years. _

jog on
duc


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## sptrawler (22 July 2020)

Well at last some great news on the electric car front, it looks as though they are heading towards a standard plug, thankfully we haven't got millions of EV charge points that may need modifying.
At least when we commence a national roll out, the configuration should be fairly standard, rather than a repeat of the 8track 4track cassette wars and the multitude of phone chargers untill micro usb was adopted universally.

https://thedriven.io/2020/07/20/nis...-road-for-electric-vehicle-charging-plug-war/


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## sptrawler (22 July 2020)

The more I read on the upcoming Nissan Ariya, the more impressive it sounds, it could be a potential challenger for the Tesla which has to be good news. The higher the bar is set, the better the vehicle the public has access to, still very dear but at least range and functionality is improving IMO.

https://thedriven.io/2020/07/15/nissan-ariya-electric-crossover-tops-tesla-with-610km-range/


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## sptrawler (22 July 2020)

The big boys are starting to get serious, the GM EV Cadillac has some amazing stats.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/cadil...oming-electric-suv-123945.html?trackLink=SMH3
From the article:
The 83cm display is actually an upgrade on the one previewed in the 2021 Cadillac Escalade.
The left-hand zone of the Lyriq's screen will allow the driver to control lighting and the head-up display, while the section behind the steering wheel will be a digital instruments cluster and the rest of the screen will house navigation, infotainment and information on the car's battery.
The Lyriq will be the first Cadillac car to be built on GM's third-generation electric car platform, featuring the company's stackable, pouch-style Ultium batteries, which GM says are capable of offering a top-end range of "400 miles or more" (643km plus)
The car is expected to go on sale in China in 2021, followed by North America in 2022.


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## sptrawler (23 July 2020)

Car makers are starting to change their operating model, in readiness for electric cars, dealerships and maintenance facilities will become a thing of the past a bit like the T.V repair shops.
Just my opinion.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/moto...e/news-story/2a076d6a1851752a42adcc1a8f2f59e0
From the article:
_Mercedes-Benz has pushed forward with a controversial plan to sidestep dealers by introducing an online sales model with fixed prices for all cars from 2022.

Customers will be able to choose to buy their new car online or go into a dealership to purchase their next car.
“This change has already been successfully introduced in Sweden more than twelve months ago and Australia will be another of the earlier markets to make the switch.”

Mercedes expects one in four global sales to be completed online before 2025.

Honda will adopt a similar approach in July 2021, when it will reduce the size of its network and adopt national prices for new cars that currently vary to some degree from dealer to dealer.

The new sales model is similar to that of Tesla, which offers the same no-negotiation prices on its website and in a small number of dealerships owned by the head office. Similarly, Apple’s popular line of laptops and smartphones essentially cost the same price whether bought online or in physical retailers_.


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## basilio (23 July 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Car makers are starting to change their operating model, in readiness for electric cars, dealerships and maintenance facilities will become a thing of the past a bit like the T.V repair shops.
> Just my opinion.
> 
> https://www.couriermail.com.au/moto...e/news-story/2a076d6a1851752a42adcc1a8f2f59e0
> ...




Ok. But that has big implications for all the current dealer infrastructure. The yards, the people.
Also wonder about who will be carrying the spare parts for all the vehicles current on the roads?

Be interesting to see the outcome..


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## sptrawler (23 July 2020)

basilio said:


> Ok. But that has big implications for all the current dealer infrastructure. The yards, the people.
> Also wonder about who will be carrying the spare parts for all the vehicles current on the roads?
> 
> Be interesting to see the outcome..



That is just collateral damage when a big push is enacted, the manufacturers will be rubbing their hands with glee, bigger profit margins, less overheads, less re tooling costs, less development costs, less ongoing maintenance, less workforce if any due to less maintenance.
Those with older cars will just have to tighten the belt, the sad side will be it will be those that can least afford it as usual, but that is always the case with rapid change. Don't get in the way of an ideological stampede.

As AGL said in the other thread, they can shut down all their coal generation, if people are prepared to pay for it, as the cost of electricity will sky rocket.
Anything can be done, as long as someone can pay for it, those who can't just become collateral damage.
That is the difference between ideologically driven change, rather than a staged transition and where a lot of political differences are delineated.IMO


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## basilio (27 July 2020)

The Wiki entry on electric cars is exceptionally detailed . 
Lots of little know facts about past and present electric cars.
For example check out the Detroit Electric Company

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle


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## sptrawler (10 August 2020)

Origin to trail E.V home charging smart controllers. This covers a few of the issues we have already discussed on the forum.
https://thedriven.io/2020/08/07/ori...hargers-to-customers-in-trial-of-future-grid/
From the article:
Electricity retailer Origin Energy is to roll out smart EV chargers to up to 150 customers to test the ability of electric vehicle charging to be remotely monitored, controlled and optimised to minimise impacts on the electricity grid.
“We hope this trial will help us understand how we can maximise the benefits to customers by offering products that reduce their EV charging costs, as well as how we can manage EV charging in a way that helps with grid and network stability.”
While electric vehicles will shift more of the transport sector’s energy use on to the electricity system, they also provide a chance to better coordinate the electricity system, by allowing electric vehicles to absorb otherwise excess wind and solar generation, and potentially feeding power back into the grid through two-way chargers.
Under the Origin Energy trial, the smart chargers will be integrated into Origin Energy’s Virtual Power Plant platform, allowing for factors like wholesale electricity prices and total grid demand to coordinate how and when EVs are charged.

“Smart chargers will be able to talk to the platform, which can remotely direct chargers to switch on and off, or higher or lower, in response to wholesale prices, with benefits for customers in terms of lower charging costs and the NEM as we can more efficiently manage demand and supply in the system,” Lucas added.

“We want to get people thinking about EVs as more than just a car and saving on petrol, they can provide additional value to their owners through battery storage for the home, connected to virtual power plants or used for grid stabilisation, all of which will significantly reduce payback periods and improve the economics of EV ownership for many Australians.”

The deployment of smart charging systems is being supported by an $838,000 grant from the Australian Renewable Energy Agency, recognising the ability to minimise costs for drivers while supporting the reliability of the electricity system will both facilitate greater uptake of electric vehicle models.
“As the uptake of EVs increases, it will be important to efficiently manage the charging of vehicles, to avoid potentially costly impacts on peak demand, associated network charges and grid security issues,” ARENA CEO Darren Miller said.

“Smart charging enables charging at times when demand is lowest and electricity is cheapest, which reduces the burden on the network and the cost to the customer.”


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## Value Collector (10 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Origin to trail E.V home charging smart controllers. This covers a few of the issues we have already discussed on the forum.
> https://thedriven.io/2020/08/07/ori...hargers-to-customers-in-trial-of-future-grid/
> From the article:
> Electricity retailer Origin Energy is to roll out smart EV chargers to up to 150 customers to test the ability of electric vehicle charging to be remotely monitored, controlled and optimised to minimise impacts on the electricity grid.
> ...




That’s awesome that they are getting on the front foot like that, it’s really in their interests, and it’s good for everybody, including people without electric cars, it create higher utilisation of the existing assets.


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## basilio (10 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Origin to trail E.V home charging smart controllers. This covers a few of the issues we have already discussed on the forum.
> https://thedriven.io/2020/08/07/ori...hargers-to-customers-in-trial-of-future-grid/
> From the article:
> Electricity retailer Origin Energy is to roll out smart EV chargers to up to 150 customers to test the ability of electric vehicle charging to be remotely monitored, controlled and optimised to minimise impacts on the electricity grid.
> ...




That project pulls together almost all the major points that make widespread integration of EV cars into our energy systems so useful.

The capacity to absorb excess solar power.
The capacity to act as a virtual battery bank if/when  energy use becomes too excessive for peak loads and to stabilise the grid

The opportunity to use of peak power to full advantage.
Will be great to see the outcomes and hopefully practical ways to ensure rapid and widespread use of EVs is encouraged.


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## Value Collector (10 August 2020)

basilio said:


> That project pulls together almost all the major points that make widespread integration of EV cars into our energy systems so useful.
> 
> The capacity to absorb excess solar power.
> The capacity to act as a virtual battery bank if/when  energy use becomes too excessive for peak loads and to stabilise the grid
> ...




It will interesting when EV's can be used to act like a virtual battery bank, So not only will owning an EV save you a lot by reducing your spending on petrol, but while its parked up it could be earning you credits on your power bill by helping support the grid.


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## SirRumpole (10 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> It will interesting when EV's can be used to act like a virtual battery bank, So not only will owning an EV save you a lot by reducing your spending on petrol, but while its parked up it could be earning you credits on your power bill by helping support the grid.




So you go back to your car after work and find your battery flat ?

That would need a mighty big jump start from the NRMA !


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## Value Collector (10 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So you go back to your car after work and find your battery flat ?
> 
> That would need a mighty big jump start from the NRMA !




It would be more like plugging your car in when you get home after work at 6pm with and the grid pulling out the remaining charge to support the evening peak demand, and then filling you back up during the low demand so you have a full battery in the morning again. 
———————

I would imagine that it would be set to operate within certain levels.

Eg, between fully charged and say 70%.

They currentmy run the virtual power plant system with peoples Tesla power walls, which only have a capacity of 12KWH, where as EVs range between 50KWH and 100KWH. 

So even if they only worked within a range of day 20%, (fully charged to 80%) it would be better than a Tesla power wall

again though it would be an opt in basis, imagine if you basically got free car charging because your car was available when you weren’t driving to support the grid.


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## Smurf1976 (10 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Origin to trail E.V home charging smart controllers.



There's another substantial player in the power industry, one of the gentailers, also going down the track of, as they put it, "EV charging as a service".

Customer plugs it in, they'll charge it at the most appropriate time which means not during the peaks basically. 

So there's a few companies with ideas, all ultimately aiming to achieve the same thing.

As for Origin, they already do have a limited presence in the public EV charger business including in places where they don't otherwise retail electricity. They put one in at a Nissan dealership in Hobart some years ago now - notable given that Origin doesn't generate or retail electricity in Tas so in this case is simply involved with the EV charger only.


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## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Here is my academic background in engineering, a little more than Elon, not accounting for personal engineering study which I have open access to all the textbooks that universities give their students:


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## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Here is my academic background in engineering, a little more than Elon, not accounting for personal engineering study which I have open access to all the textbooks that universities give their students:
> 
> View attachment 107278
> 
> ...





Then I can post all the Civil Aviation Government Engineering Exams, that I have passed, which most qualified engineering graduates from university would struggle to pass!


----------



## Value Collector (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Here is my academic background in engineering, a little more than Elon
> 
> CH]




Hahahaha, you are claiming to have more experience than a guy that has litterially spent the last 15 years working in programs designing cars and rockets and the factories that build them.

Elon is not a passive investor, please let me know when you have started a global car company, and another company that can transport people to the space station, then we can talk about your engineering experience.


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## Value Collector (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Then I can post all the Civil Aviation Government Engineering Exams, that I have passed, which most qualified engineering graduates from university would struggle to pass!




next you will try and tell us that you did a tafe course on investing, so you are more experienced than Warren Buffett, Hahaha.

——
Can you believe this guy, Hahaha


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## over9k (11 August 2020)

...I feel I need to sig this.


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## sptrawler (11 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So you go back to your car after work and find your battery flat ?
> 
> That would need a mighty big jump start from the NRMA !



My guess is, you will be able to preselect on your cars interface, the amount of battery capacity you are prepared to export.
That would enable people to leave enough capacity for personal requirements.


----------



## basilio (11 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> next you will try and tell us that you did a tafe course on investing, so you are more experienced than Warren Buffett, Hahaha.
> 
> ——
> Can you believe this guy, Hahaha




Dunning-Kruger rises again.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Yet when I tried to tell him about my background and it being the reason why I knew some study he'd referenced was bull****, apparently my background didn't count for anything.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Hahahaha, you are claiming to have more experience than a guy that has litterially spent the last 15 years working in programs designing cars and rockets and the factories that build them.
> 
> Elon is not a passive investor, please let me know when you have started a global car company, and another company that can transport people to the space station, then we can talk about your engineering experience.




Errrr, Elon has no engineering qualifications other than software. Never studied any formal engineering other than software.

At least Nikola Tesla did study some formal engineering before quitting university and pursuing his own engineering ideas.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Dunning-Kruger rises again.




HAHA; I have actually studied multiple disciplines at multiple universities.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> next you will try and tell us that you did a tafe course on investing, so you are more experienced than Warren Buffett, Hahaha.
> 
> ——
> Can you believe this guy, Hahaha




Actually I studied postgrad applied finance at uni; but you wouldn't even know what that means.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Errrr, Elon has no engineering qualifications other than software. Never studied any formal engineering other than software.
> 
> At least Nikola Tesla did study some formal engineering before quitting university and pursuing his own engineering ideas.



You're absolutely right chronos. Elon has no idea what he's doing. 

******* lol @ this.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> You're absolutely right chronos. Elon has no idea what he's doing.
> 
> ******* lol @ this.




Hey; I only highlighted that he doesn't have any formal engineering qualifications and has never studied engineering at an academic institution; other than software and arts.




These are the facts, I don't care about your feelings.


----------



## Lucky777 (11 August 2020)

Elon is chief engineer/designer at space x since it’s inception from out of the thousands of people working there. You would think he knows what he’s doing.

But apparently not, I mean you’re formal qualifications clearly outweigh his. Haha.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Lucky777 said:


> Elon is chief engineer/designer at space x since it’s inception from out of the thousands of people working there. You would think he knows what he’s doing.




Why would I want to do that? I am not trying to belittle Elon, in fact I like the guy. If anything he has proven that you don't need to study formal engineering to be a successful engineer. But you need to have strong mathematical abilities at least and be creative.

I love it how all the loud gooses on here fell right into my trap


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Lucky777 said:


> Elon is chief engineer/designer at space x since it’s inception from out of the thousands of people working there. You would think he knows what he’s doing.
> 
> But apparently not, I mean you’re formal qualifications clearly outweigh his. Haha.




Well Elon has no formal engineering qualifications, hahahaha. So yes, even my formal qualifications in engineering and aviation, would outweigh his.

I doubt Elon has even heard of Bernoulli's principle.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> Yet when I tried to tell him about my background and it being the reason why I knew some study he'd referenced was bull****, apparently my background didn't count for anything.




I don't know what your background is; however it isn't in finance or economics, if you didn't know how to work out correlation. As any person who has studied economics and finance at uni knows how to work out correlation.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I don't know what your background is; however it isn't in finance or economics, if you didn't know how to work out correlation. As any person who has studied economics and finance at uni knows how to work out correlation.



Lol. Want a bet?


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Be right back guys, gotta tell Bill Gates that he has no idea what he's doing because he dropped out of uni.

Results speak a lot louder than quips.


----------



## Lucky777 (11 August 2020)




----------



## Value Collector (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Errrr, Elon has no engineering qualifications other than software. Never studied any formal engineering other than software.
> 
> At least Nikola Tesla did study some formal engineering before quitting university and pursuing his own engineering ideas.




And I have no formal qualifications as an investor, but have out performed just about any financial advisor with qualifications you can poke a stick at.

a Uni degree is just a piece of paper that shows you have studied some stuff and passed some exams, it doesn’t mean you have more knowledge than a person that has dedicated their life to working in a specific field. 

I can bet Elon has more engineering knowledge about rockets and robotics than you simply by his practical exposure to experts in the field and personal study


----------



## Value Collector (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> Be right back guys, gotta tell Bill Gates that he has no idea what he's doing because he dropped out of uni.
> 
> Results speak a lot louder than quips.



Hahaha, another good example.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

The really hilarious part is that chronos was using a cost-benefit analysis that I've been trained to do at uni and that training is precisely how I was able to (attempt) to explain to him, in quite precise detail, why the one he listed was utter shite.

But apparently, it's not possible for the "pro's" to simply be professional bullshitters, so everything I was saying was just denial of course. It's not like I've been trained to do exactly what KPMG did and so was able to explain exactly what they did because I've, you know, done it myself. Nah. 

He genuinely doesn't understand the concept of "garbage in gets garbage out". Arguing with him is a fool's errand.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> And I have no formal qualifications as an investor, but have out performed just about any financial advisor with qualifications you can poke a stick at.
> 
> a Uni degree is just a piece of paper that shows you have studied some stuff and passed some exams, it doesn’t mean you have more knowledge than a person that has dedicated their life to working in a specific field.
> 
> I can bet Elon has more engineering knowledge about rockets and robotics than you simply by his practical exposure to experts in the field and personal study




Thank you for falling into my trap


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> The really hilarious part is that chronos was using a cost-benefit analysis that I've been trained to do at uni and that training is precisely how I was able to (attempt) to explain to him, in quite precise detail, why the one he listed was utter shite.
> 
> But apparently, it's not possible for the "pro's" to simply be professional bullshitters, so everything I was saying was just denial of course.
> 
> He genuinely doesn't understand the concept of "garbage in gets garbage out". Arguing with him is a fool's errand.




Not sure what you studied at uni, but it wasn't straight economics or finance: that is for sure 

It's OK; don't be embarrassed, just be honest.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Want a bet? Or when I post pictures of my degrees will you then just go "nah that could be anyone" and refuse to pay up?

You genuinely think your knowledge is greater than elon musk's because you have more formal education than him. You're a moron.


----------



## Lucky777 (11 August 2020)

And you’re apparently trying to “trap” people on a forum to do what? What’s the end goal? Meanwhile I’ll be making money on shares and stocks and being positive. Also I’ll be seeing Elon to discuss his rocket engineering later and his formal qualifications of how he got there. Cya m8.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> Want a bet?




I reckon you did arts with maybe a major in commerce. Very different to economics and applied finance studies.

If you studied economics at uni, then it doesn't reflect well on the university, if you had never had to work out correlation throughout your entire economic or finance studies.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I reckon you did arts with maybe a major in commerce.
> 
> If you studied economics at uni, then it doesn't reflect well on the university, if you had never had to work out correlation throughout your entire economic or finance studies.



When have we ever argued (or even spoken) about correlation? Seriously, what are you actually talking about?

Correlation is done in stats 101. So is standard deviation, variance, and confidence intervals.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I doubt Elon Musk has even heard of Bernoulli's principle.




I feel that just this line says everything on its own really. I need to sig it.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> When have we ever argued about correlation? Seriously, what are you actually talking about?
> 
> Correlation is done in stats 101. So is standard deviation, variance, and confidence intervals.




Skate was asking you a few weeks ago. You didn't/couldn't answer.

No need to be embarrassed.

Anyway, so you did an arts degree with a major in commerce maybe. It's OK, nothing to be ashamed of.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> I feel that just this line says everything on its own really. I need to sig it.




As I said, if he has never heard of the principle, it is fine.

You certainly would never have heard of it.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

I have no idea what you're referring to. Feel free to link me. 

Still wondering if you want that bet. Come on, I'll bet you any sum of money you like. I didn't even think you could major in commerce through arts?


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> As I said, if he has never heard of the principle, it is fine.
> 
> You certainly would never have heard of it.



Omg I learned to fly a few years ago. It's literally how wings work. Ahahaha oh my god you utter, utter moron.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> I have no idea what you're referring to. Feel free to link me.
> 
> Still wondering if you want that bet. Come on, I'll bet you any sum of money you like. I didn't even think you could major in commerce through arts?




I don't need to bet.

There are all sorts of degrees from all sorts of universities.

Musk did arts majoring in physics/economics.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

"I doubt elon musk knows how wings work" 

- chronos's genuine belief.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

I am genuinely in tears right now. This is amazing.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> "I doubt elon musk knows how wings work"
> 
> - chronos's genuine belief.




Well maybe not. I have never spoken to him.

Perhaps one of the Ivy League universities should provide Elon with an honorary degree in aeronautical engineering.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> I am genuinely in tears right now. This is amazing.




So am I. This is brilliant to see Plato's Cave in real time.

Perhaps one of the Ivy League universities should provide Elon with an honorary degree in aeronautical engineering.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Get some help dude.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> Get some help dude.




Err, you should probably take your own advice.

Perhaps one of the Ivy League universities should provide Elon with an honorary degree in aeronautical engineering. If we are to listen to you!


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Oh yes. I'm the loon here. Not the guy that genuinely thinks elon musk doesn't know what bernoulli's principle is.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> Oh yes. I'm the loon here. Not the guy that genuinely thinks elon musk doesn't know what bernoulli's principle is.




Errr; as I said.

Perhaps one of the Ivy League universities should provide Elon with an honorary degree in aeronautical engineering.


----------



## Value Collector (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Thank you for falling into my trap




What trap is that? Admitting I am not university educated? I am pretty everyone here knows that already.

I actually think you have fallen into your own trap, by admitting you think I degree I something automatically means you know more about a topic than someone who is self educated, as already pointed out, Bill Gates didn’t finish his degree, and I don’t think his most important lessons came from a uni course. 

over my 25 year investing career, (13 - 38years old) I have done a lot More study and practical work on investing than you would even do in a Uni degree.

same with Elon, if you think you can come out of a 3 year uni course with more knowledge than Elon has picked up in the last 15 years of his career,... good luck to you


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> Oh yes. I'm the loon here. Not the guy that genuinely thinks elon musk doesn't know what bernoulli's principle is.




I think the loon here is you; claiming that you have studied economics and you can't even work out a correlation.

You wouldn't know a macro economic chart if it hit you in the head


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> What trap is that? Admitting I am not university educated? I am pretty everyone here knows that already.
> 
> I actually think you have fallen into your own trap, by admitting you think I degree I something automatically means you know more about a topic than someone who is self educated, as already pointed out, Bill Gates didn’t finish his degree, and I don’t think his most important lessons came from a uni course.
> 
> ...




Hey that is fine; you can believe what you like.

Perhaps one of the Ivy League universities should provide Elon with an honorary degree in aeronautical engineering.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I think the loon here is you; claiming that you have studied economics and you can't even work out a correlation.
> 
> You wouldn't know a macro economic chart if it hit you in the head



Still no idea what you're referring to. Still waiting for you to link me. Still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is. 

And still know you're trying to shift the focus


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

This is beyond parody now. I've had my fun. Time to put him on ignore.


----------



## over9k (11 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> What trap is that? Admitting I am not university educated? I am pretty everyone here knows that already.
> 
> I actually think you have fallen into your own trap, by admitting you think I degree I something automatically means you know more about a topic than someone who is self educated, as already pointed out, Bill Gates didn’t finish his degree, and I don’t think his most important lessons came from a uni course.
> 
> ...



Forget it dude. I've put him on ignore. I was confident he was out of his mind after his raving in the other thread, but now it's just sad.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> Still no idea what you're referring to. Still waiting for you to link me. Still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is.
> 
> And still know you're trying to shift the focus




No focus shifting here buddy .

I am not going to spoon feed you, you need to go back and find it in the posts. A good exercise for you to brush up on your research skills


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> Forget it dude. I've put him on ignore. I was confident he was out of his mind after his raving in the other thread, but now it's just sad.




It is sad that you claim to have studied economics at uni and yet you struggle to even know the basics.

You must of cheated through your studies or the university is a backwater college.

Then you don't even know the seasons of weather when we were talking in the COVID threads, haha.

Then you don't even know how precious metals are measured when we were talking about metals, haha.

I know who the lunatic is; who untied your straight jacket 

I feel sorry for you.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> Forget it dude. I've put him on ignore. I was confident he was out of his mind after his raving in the other thread, but now it's just sad.




Please do because you are clearly mentally challenged for not knowing basic everyday cognitive stuff like weather seasons and measuring metals.

It is sad really, and I feel sorry for you.

We might be able to give you a job cleaning the office or basic mail duties.


----------



## Value Collector (11 August 2020)

over9k said:


> This is beyond parody now. I've had my fun. Time to put him on ignore.



Same.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Same.




Adios.

Maybe you can employ Over9k. You 2 deserve each other.


----------



## tech/a (11 August 2020)

Trading VMT currently in a halt.

Have a strong holding in the electric Bike and Scooter market.

https://stocknessmonster.com/announcements/vmt.asx-6A989563/


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

tech/a said:


> Trading VMT currently in a halt.
> 
> Have a strong holding in the electric Bike and Scooter market.
> 
> https://stocknessmonster.com/announcements/vmt.asx-6A989563/




The VMT and Ducati deal is why I would consider buying in to VMT:


----------



## tech/a (11 August 2020)

Id go a Harley
but some how I dont think it would
be the same as a Hog.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

tech/a said:


> Id go a Harley
> but some how I dont think it would
> be the same as a Hog.




The Europeans tend to like European vehicles. Tesla is already finding this out. Tesla market share crushed in Germany: _*"Tesla’s share of the EV market plunged to 8.7% year-to-date, from 18.4% last year. Competition is now huge and across the spectrum. Tesla faces the same situation globally."

(https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/tesla-crushed-germany-evs-vw-renault-hyundai-group)


*_


----------



## Value Hunter (11 August 2020)

Not that I like Elon Musk but I don't understand the point of debating his knowledge of engineering or his understanding of car manufacturing, etc. Tesla is a company with thousands of employees, its not a one man show. Even if Elon had zero knowledge of manufacturing or cars some of the other thousands of Tesla employees might have the knowledge to get the job done.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (11 August 2020)

Value Hunter said:


> Not that I like Elon Musk but I don't understand the point of debating his knowledge of engineering or his understanding of car manufacturing, etc. Tesla is a company with thousands of employees, its not a one man show. Even if Elon had zero knowledge of manufacturing or cars some of the other thousands of Tesla employees might have the knowledge to get the job done.




I find Elon entertaining. He is not an engineer or mechanic. Really he is a celebrity and entrepreneur.

He didn't invent the electric vehicle, that was invented around the ~1830s.

Elon is like an American/South African Richard Branson; not that there is anything wrong with that.


----------



## Value Collector (12 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Dunning-Kruger rises again.




I think he made this video, hahaha.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 August 2020)

I will take the Porsche Taycan:


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> a Uni degree is just a piece of paper that shows you have studied some stuff and passed some exams, it doesn’t mean you have more knowledge than a person that has dedicated their life to working in a specific field.




I'll keep out of this "mine's bigger than yours" contest but I'll note that there are some very sharp people without formal education in the relevant fields and there are some fools with it.

Just because someone didn't have the opportunity to attend school through to year 12 and then go to uni doesn't prove they weren't capable. Nor does the fact that they have a degree prove that they've any real talent when it comes to applying it.

If someone's been operating a machine every day for the past 20 years then fair chance they know things about its real world behaviour that even the original designer would struggle with. A point comes where they just know that the slight change in sound that most wouldn't even notice means x needs attention and so on.

There's some very clever people out there despite their lack of formal qualifications in the relevant field and that's a point that the smarter engineers, managers and so on readily acknowledge. Always ask the tradies, operators or whoever's at the coalface if they've any input to add.

Likewise just because someone isn't great with geography or language doesn't mean they aren't a near genius with finance or physics. Etc.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll keep out of this "mine's bigger than yours" contest but I'll note that there are some very sharp people without formal education in the relevant fields and there are some fools with it.
> 
> Just because someone didn't have the opportunity to attend school through to year 12 and then go to uni doesn't prove they weren't capable. Nor does the fact that they have a degree prove that they've any real talent when it comes to applying it.
> 
> ...





The point of difference is that I consider Elon to be a celebrity and entrepreneur, not an inventor or engineer.

That is my opinion. The problem is that some people here just can't accept that people have opinions that are different to their own. It is all very school yard bullying and childish to be honest.

I see Elon Musk like an American version of Richard Branson and there is nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> I consider Elon to be a celebrity and entrepreneur, not an inventor or engineer.



I don't know the truth about his technical abilities but agreed that his key value is that of celebrity, salesman, entrepreneur and so on. He can convince others what needs to happen and sell the message, that's where he seems able to succeed but many have previously failed.

If he can do some engineering then that's a bonus but it's not crucial. So long as he can generate demand for the products, it doesn't really matter who designs the detail so long as it works.

It reminds me of a trades business I had some dealings with. The other workers struggled to grasp that the most disorganised and unproductive worker was in fact their most valuable for one very simple reason. He was brilliant at quoting the jobs and getting customers to sign up for the premium option and bringing $$$ into the business. Anything else he did was really just a bonus but not critical - there's plenty of people who can do the work as such but not many who can convince customers that the highest priced quote is the one they should choose.


----------



## basilio (12 August 2020)

Just for interest, check out the Wiki page on Elon Musk. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't know the truth about his technical abilities but agreed that his key value is that of celebrity, salesman, entrepreneur and so on. He can convince others what needs to happen and sell the message, that's where he seems able to succeed but many have previously failed.
> 
> If he can do some engineering then that's a bonus but it's not crucial. So long as he can generate demand for the products, it doesn't really matter who designs the detail so long as it works.
> 
> It reminds me of a trades business I had some dealings with. The other workers struggled to grasp that the most disorganised and unproductive worker was in fact their most valuable for one very simple reason. He was brilliant at quoting the jobs and getting customers to sign up for the premium option and bringing $$$ into the business. Anything else he did was really just a bonus but not critical - there's plenty of people who can do the work as such but not many who can convince customers that the highest priced quote is the one they should choose.




Yes, Elon is not an inventor or engineer. Yes, Elon is a salesman. Yes, you should be careful; you don't know if I know people who know people that work for NASA. So probably best to be nice, maybe Boeing and Lockheed will fark Space X in around 5 years.



basilio said:


> Just for interest, check out the Wiki page on Elon Musk.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk




Elon, should stick to his cage fights with Johnny Depp.

Elon would not even know that on a 747-400 aircraft that the little orange beacons, at the exits of aircrafts, are transmitters that can be activated with urine.

So I suggest you and your Elon crowd take a back seat.


----------



## cutz (12 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> Elon would not even know that on a 747-400 aircraft that the little orange beacons, at the exits of aircrafts, are transmitters that can be activated with urine.




Hey buddy,  

You're kidding yeah ? What are you referring to here ?


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 August 2020)

cutz said:


> Hey buddy,
> 
> You're kidding yeah ? What are you referring to here ?




No I am not.

Piss on the orange beacons at each 747 aircraft exit door and see what happens.

Don't tell me Elon knew this!


----------



## cutz (12 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> No I am not.
> 
> Piss on the orange beacons at each 747 aircraft exit door and see what happens.
> 
> Don't tell me Elon knew this!




Sorry mate, I've come in late into the conversation, missed the inside joke..


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 August 2020)

cutz said:


> Sorry mate, I've come in late into the conversation, missed the inside joke..




All good; I was just taking this piss out of Elon. Pun intended


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 August 2020)

cutz said:


> Sorry mate, I've come in late into the conversation, missed the inside joke..




Just to let you know; Boeing and Lockheed will destroy Space X within 5 years. Better tell IQ-tel to rebalance; 

There are a some very intelligent people in the world, far more intelligent than Elon and the idiots that buy his stock.


----------



## Chronos-Plutus (12 August 2020)

Arrivederci, adios,  auf wiedersehen, bon voyage and
antio sas.

No more posts now from me.


----------



## sptrawler (13 August 2020)

Chronos-Plutus said:


> The point of difference is that I consider Elon to be a celebrity and entrepreneur, not an inventor or engineer.
> 
> That is my opinion. The problem is that some people here just can't accept that people have opinions that are different to their own. It is all very school yard bullying and childish to be honest.
> 
> I see Elon Musk like an American version of Richard Branson and there is nothing wrong with that.



Elon Musk is one step ahead of failure, but isn't that how many of billionaire's make it? Take Twiggy Forrest, Allan Bond etc they usually make a fortune by making other people buy into the dream.
Some make it, others crash and burn, but very few who don't have a dream get to first base.
Sometimes knowledge and technical ability can be the thing that limits the imagination and creativity.


----------



## over9k (13 August 2020)

If you're replying to chronos, he'll be serious. I wouldn't worry, he's the resident forum loon. Half the members here (including me) have him on ignore.


----------



## Value Collector (13 August 2020)

basilio said:


> Just for interest, check out the Wiki page on Elon Musk.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk




Definitely achieved more than most of us could in multiple lifetimes, but haters are going to hate regardless (I would like to understand the psychology behind what makes people like chronos flipped their lid when it comes to Elon or Tesla, Tall poppy syndrome maybe???).


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Elon Musk is one step ahead of failure, but isn't that how many of billionaire's make it? Take Twiggy Forrest, Allan Bond etc they usually make a fortune by making other people buy into the dream.
> Some make it, others crash and burn, but very few who don't have a dream get to first base.
> *Sometimes knowledge and technical ability can be the thing that limits the imagination and creativity.*





Absolutely. The geniuses are the ones who can properly select and manage the best people to carry out their big ideas, and also have the modesty to admit they may be wrong if the experts tell them their big ideas are cr@p.

That's not to say that experts can't be wrong too.


----------



## Value Collector (13 August 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's some very clever people out there despite their lack of formal qualifications in the relevant field and that's a point that the smarter engineers, managers and so on readily acknowledge. Always ask the tradies, operators or whoever's at the coalface if they've any input to add.
> .




Also, its worthwhile remembering that before something can be taught in a university, the idea or concept has to be discovered, invented or in some way created and that often comes about through practical experience by some one who didn't learn it at University.

Eg. I doubt the guy that invented arched bridges or dome roofs learn went to Uni. 

Even Benjamin Graham, who's Books are still used in finance courses at various universities never studied finance at university, he literally invented an investment approach that has been adopted into university courses without himself ever having a formal ducats in the field.


----------



## Value Collector (13 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely. The geniuses are the ones who can properly select and manage the best people to carry out their big ideas, and also have the modesty to admit they may be wrong if the experts tell them their big ideas are cr@p.
> 
> That's not to say that experts can't be wrong too.




You can add Walt Disney to that list, he was a mediocre cartoonist himself, but he knew what a great animated film would look like, and understood good story telling, and he dedicated his life and every scrap of cash he could muster to build and film studio build on animation. 

Whether its Walt Disney, Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, Bill Gates or Elon Musk there is always someone that gets a jealous steak and gets all twisted up and wants to pull them down.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2020)

Value Collector said:


> You can add Walt Disney to that list, he was a mediocre cartoonist himself, but he knew what a great animated film would look like, and understood good story telling, and he dedicated his life and every scrap of cash he could muster to build and film studio build on animation.
> 
> Whether its Walt Disney, Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, Bill Gates or Elon Musk there is always someone that gets a jealous steak and gets all twisted up and wants to pull them down.




I admire all those people for their entrepreneurship. As far as Musk goes I wasn't happy with the remark he made about a cave diver when the diver said thanks but no thanks to Musk's offer of a submarine and Musk got his knickers in a twist.

However you don't have to be a nice person to be a good businessman.


----------



## basilio (13 August 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> I admire all those people for their entrepreneurship. As far as Musk goes I wasn't happy with the remark he made about a cave diver when the diver said thanks but no thanks to Musk's offer of a submarine and Musk got his knickers in a twist.
> 
> However you don't have to be a nice person to be a good businessman.




That response from Elon was dumb an nasty. But looking at his vision *and achievements - *certainly something special.

I also have a memory of him taking a hands on role in re organising his car factories at one stage when it was all getting difficult. Surprised me I have to say.

_When the company failed to meet its output for Model X SUVs because the falcon-wing doors were so hard to fit, “Elon moved into the factory for two weeks,” said a former Tesla executive who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal company matters. “He was sleeping in a sleeping bag — real-time triaging cars at the end of the line trying to get to the root cause of what the issues were. It was wild.”

Musk also got hands-on when the company was facing a lag because of paint. “Elon wasn’t satisfied,” the former executive said, “and so he took over the paint shop. He ran the paint shop for two weeks.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/tech...factory-being-cusp-launching-crew-into-space/_


----------



## SirRumpole (13 August 2020)

basilio said:


> That response from Elon was dumb an nasty. But looking at his vision *and achievements - *certainly something special.
> 
> I also have a memory of him taking a hands on role in re organising his car factories at one stage when it was all getting difficult. Surprised me I have to say.
> 
> ...




Yep, I like that.

Show the underlings how things should be done, don't just tell them.


----------



## over9k (13 August 2020)

Something Sheryl Sandberg still hasn't learned.


----------



## sptrawler (18 August 2020)

Victoria starting to roll out a few country charging points, good idea, I'm sure the country areas could do with a boost no matter how small.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/regio...charging-locations-124073.html?trackLink=SMH0


----------



## over9k (18 August 2020)

And tesla hits yet another ridiculous price.


----------



## Value Collector (20 August 2020)

Check out the the illustration at the 1.45 mark, it relates to my argument from a few weeks ago that refining oil uses electricity from the grid that 

Bp states that nearly 10% of their carbon emissions come from electricity they purchase from the grid, this is on top of the electricity they generate internally at the oil refineries using oil and gas products.


----------



## fiftyeight (28 August 2020)

Might have to remove someone from 'Ignore' to enjoy the replies to this vid


----------



## over9k (28 August 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> Might have to remove someone from 'Ignore' to enjoy the replies to this vid




No man. It's like thinking that nailing your ex again won't cause you any problems. 

It will. It isn't worth it.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 August 2020)

fiftyeight said:


> Might have to remove someone from 'Ignore' to enjoy the replies to this vid





He rambled a bit at the end, but what a great review.


----------



## basilio (1 September 2020)

Excellent  debunking of 4 major EV myths around electric cars.
Learnt a lot from this story.

*4 Myths From Electric Vehicle Haters – And Why They’re Wrong*
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesm...le-haters--and-why-theyre-wrong/#52905fc07d2c


----------



## over9k (1 September 2020)

Inb4 resident forum loon


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> He rambled a bit at the end, but what a great review.




at the 8.5 minute mark he touched on a fact as if it was a Pro, when I don't think he realised was a massive Con.

He mentions that a 50 Litres of petrol contains about 8 times the amount of energy as a 60 KWH battery, however he doesn't seem to join the dots and notice that 50 Litres of fuel does not drive a car 8 times further than 60 KWH's of electricity, because the petrol motor and drive chain are far less efficient than an EV, almost all of that extra energy is wasted, and the two cars have similar range, even though the petrol car is loaded with 8 times more energy.


----------



## orr (2 September 2020)

It's just come to my attention that Jack Rickard has passed away a day or two back..
The thing that's hurtling toward all of us has got him at 65.
His capacity to see what Humanity  is hurtling toward way way early made him a fortune few here can imagine.
God speed Jacko'.. you made me a much '_wealthier'_ human being. 

The long back catalogue of EVTV... is there for those how want a lesson in seeing the future.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> He mentions that a 50 Litres of petrol contains about 8 times the amount of energy as a 60 KWH battery, however he doesn't seem to join the dots and notice that 50 Litres of fuel does not drive a car 8 times further than 60 KWH's of electricity, because the petrol motor and drive chain are far less efficient than an EV




As a general comment efficiency at the point of use is where electricity wins in just about all situations.

Generating electricity is inherently inefficient. The only commercial technology that doesn't waste a large portion of its input energy is hydro, which has always been highly efficient, but we can't run the whole world on that alone. Everything else is far less efficient.

At the point of use though well electricity tends to leave everything else for dead. An electric motor is vastly more efficient than a petrol engine for example and an electric heat pump is ~5 times as efficient as a gas burner and heat exchanger. Don't even try looking at the luminous efficacy of a candle, it's not even in the race.

Comparisons between energy forms can be highly misleading for that reason unless you're aware of and looking for the efficiency differences.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As a general comment efficiency at the point of use is where electricity wins in just about all situations.
> 
> Generating electricity is inherently inefficient. The only commercial technology that doesn't waste a large portion of its input energy is hydro, which has always been highly efficient, but we can't run the whole world on that alone. Everything else is far less efficient.
> 
> ...



Heat engines and thermodynamics 101.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Heat engines and thermodynamics 101.



Only trouble is, mere mention of the word thermodynamics tends to make people lose interest at that point.......


----------



## Value Collector (2 September 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As a general comment efficiency at the point of use is where electricity wins in just about all situations.
> 
> Generating electricity is inherently inefficient. The only commercial technology that doesn't waste a large portion of its input energy is hydro, which has always been highly efficient, but we can't run the whole world on that alone. Everything else is far less efficient.
> 
> ...




yeah, but also refining and transporting petrol is not that efficient either, especially if you factor in the electricity needed to do that. 

So as you mentioned petrol is left for dead at point of use, but doesn’t cover itself with glory in its refining process either.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> yeah, but also refining and transporting petrol is not that efficient either, especially if you factor in the electricity needed to do that.
> 
> So as you mentioned petrol is left for dead at point of use, but doesn’t cover itself with glory in its refining process either.



How many petrol or diesel driven large fixed machinery do you see, not many, if you can get a power supply to it electricity kills it.
Even large mobile equipment, uses diesel generators supplying electric motor final drives, I have overhauled haulpack electric wheels and diesel loco's traction motors, over my working career.
I am noticing there seems to be a push happening, to increase the price of petrol driven vehicles, I wonder if this is because they don't expect the price of batteries to drop quickly.
Therefore rather than keep dropping the profit in BEV's, they will crank up the price of ICE vehicles, to make the BEV's more competitive?


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> How many petrol or diesel driven large fixed machinery do you see



Excluding burners to produce heat, I've only ever come across 3 where an actual engine was involved and only one of those didn't have a reasonable excuse.

One was fixed but portable as such, being an amusement ride taken to shows etc in regional areas. Direct drive petrol engine to the rest of the machinery, no electrics involved at all. Normal approach with most rides like that is electric motors and a generator.

One was a petrol driven hydraulic system but it was only as backup to an electrically driven hydraulic pump. They'd chosen to have a separate pump and engine as the backup rather than a generator, thus removing the electric motor or its pump as single points of failure.

Other was truly bizarre being a chair lift powered by a two stroke engine. I kid you not and it gets worse - there was an overhead power line barely 10 meters away. Ridiculous yes. Almost couldn't believe it when I saw them tipping fuel into it from a 20 litre drum with a funnel.


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Excluding burners to produce heat, I've only ever come across 3 where an actual engine was involved and only one of those didn't have a reasonable excuse.
> 
> One was fixed but portable as such, being an amusement ride taken to shows etc in regional areas. Direct drive petrol engine to the rest of the machinery, no electrics involved at all. Normal approach with most rides like that is electric motors and a generator.
> 
> ...



So true, the biggest purely diesel driven machine was a ship, but now most ships use diesel/generator/electric motor propulsion.
Here is a link to the biggest diesel motor built for a ship.
https://www.zmescience.com/science/biggest-most-poweful-engine-world/#:~:text=This jaw-dropper is the,power an entire suburban town.
That is 80MW, amazing mechanical feat, much easier and more versatile to have 4 x 20MW diesels.
I have a valve out of a 13MW diesel in my shed, will make a great stand for a circular coffee table, when I find the time to make it.


----------



## over9k (3 September 2020)

Opposed-piston diesels are the crazy efficient ones. They're usually train engines. 

Most petrol internal combustion engines make about 1/3rd output as work and 2/3rds as heat just FYI. The mercedes F1 hybrid engine was a huge deal when it cracked 50/50, and that's a hybrid.


----------



## sptrawler (7 September 2020)

I certainly hope these guys get this H2 car up and running, manufacturing to be based in Port Kembla, interesting article that explains our demise in manufacturing well.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/australia-turns-idled-factories-pull-233646064.html
From the article:
H2X, a startup formed in May, is looking to resurrect local automobile production by making hydrogen cars in Port Kembla, a smelting town about 100km south of Sydney.

Brendan Norman, the company's chief executive who previously worked on hydrogen cars in China, expects a prototype to be ready later this year and production to start in 2022. The operation is looking to employ 100 people by the end of this year, which could ramp up to 5,000 by 2025.

Norman said production could use 80% local content by 2024. That bet is based on a belief that Australia already has most of the skills and materials needed to make items such as supercapacitors and fuel cells, even if the manufacturing scale is not there yet.

"Australia can certainly compete in this because it is high-tech manufacturing and this is something that we feel we should be able to encourage to come back," he said.

"If we're producing the bulk of the world's hydrogen, I'd like to think that we can produce the tools that are required to use it properly."


----------



## basilio (19 September 2020)

Tesla battery day is fast approaching and there is intense speculation on the advances that  are anticipated in battery power, capacity and cost. This preview adds some background to the size of the electrification market.

*Will Tesla Signal The Death Of The Internal Combustion Engine At Battery Day?









						Will Tesla Signal The Death Of The Internal Combustion Engine At Battery Day? – ShareCafe
					

Corporate Connect research analyst Di Brookman takes us on the EV Journey, explains why all eyes and ears are poised for Tesla Battery Day, and how truly exciting times might be ahead for the sector.




					www.sharecafe.com.au
				



*


----------



## over9k (21 September 2020)

Nikola founder has just resigned. 

Man, what a wild ride that company has been on in the past couple of weeks.


----------



## over9k (21 September 2020)

8 Sep: Nikola announces a 2 billion dollar deal with GM to produce their electric/hybrid pickup truck: https://electrek.co/2020/09/08/nikola-gm-electric-hydrogen-pickup-truck-badger/

10 Sep: Hindenburg research, short sellers of nikola, allege massive fraud by the company: https://hindenburgresearch.com/nikola/

15 Sep: The SEC AND justice department announce investigations into said alleged fraud: https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a34041393/justice-dept-sec-probe-fraud-at-nikola/

20 Sep: Nikola founder RESIGNS: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanoh...short-sellers-fraud-accusations/#70fc618418e0


Ooooh boy is tonight going to be ugly. Great news for anyone exposed to tesla & nio though 


(Disclosure: I hold tesla & nio. I chose not to buy nikola when I was looking at all three. Sure glad I didn't now.)


----------



## basilio (21 September 2020)

over9k said:


> View attachment 112042
> 
> 
> 8 Sep: Nikola announces a 2 billion dollar deal with GM to produce their electric/hybrid pickup truck: https://electrek.co/2020/09/08/nikola-gm-electric-hydrogen-pickup-truck-badger/
> ...




WOW  !!! Like  WTF 
This is Enron plus  World COM.
The Hindenburg Research if correct represents a milestone in corporate malfeasance.  I suggest they have dotted the  "i "and crossed the "t". 

I think Nikola will not survive this week.
Well worth reading.

*Nikola: How to Parlay An Ocean of Lies Into a Partnership With the Largest Auto OEM in America*


Today, we reveal why we believe Nikola is an intricate fraud built on dozens of lies over the course of its Founder and Executive Chairman Trevor Milton’s career.
We have gathered extensive evidence—including recorded phone calls, text messages, private emails and behind-the-scenes photographs—detailing dozens of false statements by Nikola Founder Trevor Milton. We have never seen this level of deception at a public company, especially of this size.
Trevor has managed to parlay these false statements made over the course of a decade into a ~$20 billion public company. He has inked partnerships with some of the top auto companies in the world, all desperate to catch up to Tesla and to harness the EV wave.
We examine how Nikola got its early start and show how Trevor misled partners into signing agreements by falsely claiming to have extensive proprietary technology.
We reveal how, in the face of growing skepticism over the functionality of its truck, Nikola staged a video called “Nikola One in Motion” which showed the semi-truck cruising on a road at a high rate of speed. Our investigation of the site and text messages from a former employee reveal that the video was an elaborate ruse—Nikola had the truck towed to the top of a hill on a remote stretch of road and simply filmed it rolling down the hill.
In October 2019, Nikola announced it would revolutionize the battery industry. This was to be done through a pending acquisition, but the deal fell through when Nikola realized (a) the technology was vaporware and (b) the President of the battery company had been indicted months earlier over allegations that he conned NASA by using his expense account to procure numerous prostitutes.
Nikola has never walked back claims relating to its battery technology. Instead, Trevor continued to publicly hype the technology even after becoming aware of the above issues. The revolutionary battery technology never existed – now, Nikola plans to use GM’s battery technology instead.
A spokesman for Volvo spin-off Powercell AB, a hydrogen fuel cell technology company that formerly partnered with Nikola, called Nikola’s battery and hydrogen fuel cell claims “hot air”.
In addition to now using GM’s battery technology, Nikola seeks to use the automaker’s production and fuel cell capabilities. Nikola seems to be bringing nothing to the partnership but concept designs, their brand name and up to $700 million they will be paying GM for costs related to production.
Inexpensive hydrogen is fundamental to the success of Nikola’s business model. Trevor has claimed in a presentation to hundreds of people and in multiple interviews to have succeeded at cutting the cost of hydrogen by ~81% compared to peers and to _already be producing hydrogen_. Nikola has not produced hydrogen at this price or at _any_ price as he later admitted when pressed by media.
Trevor has appointed his brother, Travis, as “Director of Hydrogen Production/Infrastructure” to oversee this critical part of the business. Travis’s prior experience looks to have largely consisted of pouring concrete driveways and doing subcontractor work on home renovations in Hawaii.
Claims of owning energy producing assets is not new for Nikola. Trevor claimed that Nikola’s headquarters has 3.5 megawatts of solar panels on its roof producing energy. Aerial photos of the roof and later media reports show that the supposed panels don’t exist.
At one point Nikola claimed to own its own natural gas wells. There is no evidence in company filings to support this. The claims were eventually quietly removed from Nikola’s website.
Trevor claims Nikola designs all key components in house, but they appear to simply be buying or licensing them from third-parties. One example: we found that Nikola actually buys inverters from a company called Cascadia. In a video showing off its “in-house” inverters, Nikola concealed the Cascadia label with a piece of masking tape.
In a July 2020 podcast, Trevor said of Nikola’s “Tre” truck: “We have five of them coming off the assembly line right now in Ulm Germany.” A spokesperson for Bosch, the manufacturing partner building the trucks, confirmed this month that they haven’t made any trucks yet.
The company’s Nikola One “reveal” was a total farce. We corroborate Bloomberg’s earlier work debunking Trevor’s claims regarding its semi-truck that “this thing fully functions and works…this is a real truck” and provide new evidence.
We present behind-the-scenes photos showing that Nikola had an electricity cable snaked up from underneath the stage into the truck in order to falsely claim the Nikola One’s electrical systems fully functioned.
We learned through emails and interviews with former partners that Trevor had an artist stencil “H2” and “Zero Emission Hydrogen Electric” on the side of the Nikola One despite it having no hydrogen capabilities whatsoever; it was built with natural gas components.
We also present evidence that subsequent “reveals” were fictitious. In 2019, Nikola revealed a “next generation” version of its off-road vehicle. We learned that it was scrapped within weeks of the unveiling due to manufacturing challenges. The redesign work was then quietly outsourced.
Nikola’s much-touted multi-billion dollar order book is filled with fluff. U.S. Xpress reportedly accounts for a third of its reservations, representing ~$3.5 billion in orders. U.S. Xpress had only $1.3 million in cash on hand last quarter.
Nikola’s key partners and backers have been cashing out aggressively. Worthington, Bosch and ValueAct have all sold shares. Worthington sold $237 million shares over a 2-day span in July and another $250 million in August. We think they know exactly what type of company Nikola is, and we expect that as Nikola’s GM “partnership” boosts the stock price, key holders will continue to exit.
We think Trevor Milton, through dozens of outright lies, was able to form partnerships with some of the largest legacy auto companies in the world in their desperation to catch up to Tesla’s EV leadership status.
Trevor has ensured he is not going down with the ship.  He cashed out $70 million around the IPO and amended his share lock-up from 1-year to 180 days. If he is fired, his equity awards immediately vest and he is entitled to collect $20 million over two years. Milton has laid the groundwork to extract hundreds of millions from Nikola years before ever delivering on his promises.
Every now and then a story comes around that exposes how little the “experts” really know. Theranos inked partnerships with Walgreens, Safeway, and Cleveland Clinic and staffed its board with luminaries. We think Nikola’s partners did not do their homework.

_Initial Disclosure: After extensive research, we have taken a short position in shares of Nikola Corp. This report represents our opinion, and we encourage every reader to do their own due diligence. Please see our full disclaimer at the bottom of the report._


----------



## over9k (21 September 2020)

I wonder if they really properly knew about all this stuff before the GM deal and/or knew the GM deal was going to happen and just sat on it waiting for the deal to hit the news before they dropped the bomb. 

An absolutely amazing ace in the hole to have if they knew it was coming, otherwise possibly the greatest stroke of luck in short-selling history.

I wonder what's going on at GM at the moment >_>


----------



## over9k (21 September 2020)

Down 26% pre-market alone. Tesla is up 2%. This puts it at $25 down from a peak of $52. 

In 13 days.


----------



## over9k (21 September 2020)

I wonder how much Hindenburg end up making off of this (I.e whether they'll tell us or not). This is the kind of thing documentaries are made about.


----------



## basilio (21 September 2020)

over9k said:


> I wonder how much Hindenburg end up making off of this (I.e whether they'll tell us or not). This is the kind of thing documentaries are made about.




If you want stories or documentaries about GIANT CORPORATE CONS  see  Billion Dollar Bubble,  Enron The smartest guys in the room, The Big Short, The Big Lie ; Inside the rise and fraud of World Com.

I wonder who else will be exposed to the failure of Nikola.
Banks ? Suppliers ? Corporate partners ?

From that Hindenberg report I think there is very little intellectual capital in the company and the figures portending future sales are  fictional.

This  short clip throws some light on the allegations and attempts at refuting them.


----------



## moXJO (24 September 2020)

Steve jobs and elon musk are wankers to the highest order. But they get sht done. 
They push people to achieve their goals or vision. Great at grandstanding in front of a crowd.

And that's all you need to succeed.


----------



## over9k (24 September 2020)

California to Ban Sales of New Gas-Powered Cars Starting in 2035
					

Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an order that aims to end the sale of new gasoline and diesel-powered passenger cars in the state by 2035.




					www.wsj.com
				




California bans sale of internal combustion cars from 2035.

It's not the first place in the world to do it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40726868#:~:text=In London, the city's Mayor,drive one you currently own.


----------



## basilio (24 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> Steve jobs and elon musk are wankers to the highest order. But they get sht done.
> They push people to achieve their goals or vision. Great at grandstanding in front of a crowd.
> 
> And that's all you need to succeed.




Really ??  If pushing people and grandstanding in front of crowd was all that was necessary then the founder of Nikola Trevor Milton would also be home and hosed. As would a number of other arch promoters and grandstanders .

I think Steve and Elon had a lot more going for them as visionaries, leaders *and achievers* than many other B/S story tellers.


----------



## moXJO (24 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Really ??  If pushing people and grandstanding in front of crowd was all that was necessary then the founder of Nikola Trevor Milton would also be home and hosed. As would a number of other arch promoters and grandstanders .
> 
> I think Steve and Elon had a lot more going for them as visionaries, leaders *and achievers* than many other B/S story tellers.




Really? If that were the case Elisabeth Holmes wouldn't have been a thing. Right place, right time...


----------



## basilio (24 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> Really? If that were the case Elisabeth Holmes wouldn't have been a thing. Right place, right time...




What do you mean Moxjo ? Yes Elisabeth Holmes started a mercurial health care company and became a multi billionaire .
It turned out to be a fraud, much like Nikola, and was undone through much investigative journalism. 









						Elizabeth Holmes - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## orr (24 September 2020)

over9k said:


> California to Ban Sales of New Gas-Powered Cars Starting in 2035
> 
> 
> Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an order that aims to end the sale of new gasoline and diesel-powered passenger cars in the state by 2035.
> ...




Ford's net postion is around $150 Billion net Debt and their bonds are rated junk ... This news from California isn't seeming like something that's going to help their situation...And GM(slightly_ 'better'_ debt position) thinks Nikola is/was going to aid them...
Imagine the Board meetings in these companies; fantasy land...


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 September 2020)

orr said:


> Ford's net postion is around $150 Billion net Debt and their bonds are rated junk ... This news from California isn't seeming like something that's going to help their situation...And GM(slightly_ 'better'_ debt position) thinks Nikola is/was going to aid them...



Ford and GM are classic examples of companies which failed to adapt to change indeed they actively tried to resist it in order to pursue short term profit at the expense of tomorrow. The problem with that is that tomorrow does come. 

Now they're playing catchup and it may well be too late.


----------



## moXJO (24 September 2020)

basilio said:


> What do you mean Moxjo ? Yes Elisabeth Holmes started a mercurial health care company and became a multi billionaire .
> It turned out to be a fraud, much like Nikola, and was undone through much investigative journalism.
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't say grandstanding alone in my original post. Holmes is an example of being that one dimensional. Grandstanding got her a long way. All she did was imitate steve jobs.

Have you read their histories from an author that wasn't a fan boy?

Anyway their PR skills outweighed their technical abilities. 
They stood on the shoulders of the people around them.
For example:
Steve wozniak was a technical genius that made Apple 1 and 2 but he was a shy introvert. 
 Tony Fadell was the inventor of the ipod.

Elon likely stole every idea.


----------



## basilio (25 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> I didn't say grandstanding alone in my original post. Holmes is an example of being that one dimensional. Grandstanding got her a long way. All she did was imitate steve jobs.
> 
> Have you read their histories from an author that wasn't a fan boy?
> 
> ...




 I still  don't understand where you are coming from and maybe that's where we leave it.
For the record.

*1) No way was I a fan of Holmes*. The Wiki  story  was very clear that she was essentially a promoter and a fraud from the beginning.  The concept of getting hundreds of test results from a small thumb prick was fundamentally impossible.

2) *I highlighted the current crisis with Nikola because it raised the issue of  fraud in business and in particular the stock market*. From my perspective far too much money has been made through the stock market by creating vapourware and ramping implausible and often impossible projects. If these frauds aren't quickly detected and stopped I suggest honest enterprises will suffer and essentially the profits will end in the hands of conmen and grifters. *It is simply far eeasier and less risky to make billions of dollars from  spruiking dodgy companies than actually making and selling a worthwhile product.*

3) *Elon likely stole every idea ? *That is just snide. He of all company heads has a strong suit in  coming up with  imaginative ideas and then finding the people who can make them happen.

The Hindenberg report on Nikola is extensive and detailed. It also manages to highlight may other people who have constructed  backstories to create faith in their current Big Lie. 

*Our Conclusion: Nikola is a Massive Fraud Constructed on Dozens of Lies*

Sometimes people misspeak by accident. No one has a perfect memory, and we all occasionally get things wrong.

But what we have witnessed at Nikola, and specifically from Trevor Milton, is a pattern of well-planned and deliberate acts of deception ranging from (a) the staging of non-working products as if fully functional, wrapped in numerous lies about capabilities that don’t exist; (b) the staging of misleading videos, which require extensive premeditation, planning and execution; (c) material lies about capabilities, partnerships and products that simply do not exist at all, on video and often in front of entire rooms full of people; and (d) a culture of secrecy and intimidation that to this point has largely kept it all under wraps.

We think Trevor Milton is incapable of telling the truth. We believe he lies like most people breathe. It is natural for him, and our extensive review of his history suggests it has been this way throughout his entire business career.

Every now and then a story comes around that exposes how little the “experts” really know. Theranos had inked partnerships with Walgreens, Safeway, and Cleveland Clinic and had staffed its board with luminaries. Madoff raised billions in capital from sophisticated investors across the globe.

The remarkable thing about Nikola’s story is not that someone like Trevor Milton exists, but that he has managed to parlay his stories and lies into deals with some of the best manufacturers and partners in the world by claiming to own vast proprietary technology and having successfully built revolutionary products that simply didn’t exist.

He transformed these deceptions and false promises into an empire that at one point was valued at $34 billion, larger than Ford and Fiat Chrysler. He’s signed deals with GM, Anheuser Busch, Bosch, Worthington, and a slew of significant automotive players. He received investment from Fidelity and ValueAct, among other name-brand institutions.

*We truly think Nikola is both a sign of the times and a story for the ages.









						Nikola: How to Parlay An Ocean of Lies Into a Partnership With the Largest Auto OEM in America
					

(NASDAQ:NKLA) Today, we reveal why we believe Nikola is an intricate fraud built on dozens of lies over the course of its Founder and Executive Chairman Trevor Milton’s career.We have gathered exte…




					hindenburgresearch.com
				



*


----------



## moXJO (25 September 2020)

basilio said:


> I still  don't understand where you are coming from and maybe that's where we leave it.
> For the record.
> 
> *1) No way was I a fan of Holmes*. The Wiki  story  was very clear that she was essentially a promoter and a fraud from the beginning.  The concept of getting hundreds of test results from a small thumb prick was fundamentally impossible.
> ...



Here's what I said:



moXJO said:


> Steve jobs and elon musk are wankers to the highest order. But they get sht done.
> They push people to achieve their goals or vision. Great at grandstanding in front of a crowd.
> 
> And that's all you need to succeed.



Here's what you said:


basilio said:


> Really ??  If pushing people and grandstanding in front of crowd was all that was necessary then the founder of Nikola Trevor Milton would also be home and hosed. As would a number of other arch promoters and grandstanders .
> 
> I think Steve and Elon had a lot more going for them as visionaries, leaders *and achievers* than many other B/S story tellers.



 They pushed and used the people around them. 
Their power comes from their PR skills and ability to utilise the right people. The difference between Holmes and elon is fractional. Holmes would have been a success story if she had a product and partner with  technical ability. 

You however seem to think Jobs tinkered away himself and made the first apple computer or ipod. And elon was bent over the hood of a Tesla putting it together.
They gather cult like followers devoted to their products. They are PR spin merchants first.

Please provide a list of what Elon has invented at Tesla. They are front men. Even the hyperloop was based off something from 1799.


----------



## basilio (25 September 2020)

Moxjo, like everyone else, you are always entitled to your own  particular opinion.


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## moXJO (25 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Moxjo, like everyone else, you are always entitled to your own  particular opinion.



Its 2020 bas, the year yesterday's heros are unmasked.


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## Value Collector (25 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Moxjo, like everyone else, you are always entitled to your own  particular opinion.




Both Tesla and Apple struggled with out Elon and Steve, the proof is in the pudding, neither company would be what it is today without those to individuals at the helm.

A certain amount of people will always try and down ramp the achievements of true visionaries, that build great companies, they seem always seem to discount the skill, effort and dedication it takes to bring and idea into being and build a company.

As I said earlier the fact Walt Disney wasn't the best cartoonist is irrelevant, he could recognise good animation, understood story telling, and could inspire a team, I think Elon and Steve jobs are in the same category, there are heaps of great engineers sitting around, it takes a leader with big ideas to give the great engineers projects to work on, and push them to be their best, and blend multiple disciplines.


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## sptrawler (25 September 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Ford and GM are classic examples of companies which failed to adapt to change indeed they actively tried to resist it in order to pursue short term profit at the expense of tomorrow. The problem with that is that tomorrow does come.
> 
> Now they're playing catchup and it may well be too late.



Very much like Australia and it's reliance on depleting mineral resources, that we are riding into the ground, much like Ford and GM are doing with ICE.
The difference is they can adapt their manufacturing, we can't replace our resources, so who are the mugs.
We meanwhile run around in circles chasing social reform, while the very thing that funds it is allowed to be stripped away at cheap prices, ah the clever Country so sharp we cut ourselves.
There is some pluses to being old, you wont see the result.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> As I said earlier the fact Walt Disney wasn't the best cartoonist is irrelevant, he could recognise good animation, understood story telling, and could inspire a team, I think Elon and Steve jobs are in the same category, there are heaps of great engineers sitting around, it takes a leader with big ideas to give the great engineers projects to work on, and push them to be their best, and blend multiple disciplines.



I don't worship celebrities, far from it, but as a basis for research music's not a bad one given the abundance of bands and singers and information about them.

Pick any era post-WW2 and any popular music genre.

Whoever's most associated with it, the name that first comes to mind, in the vast majority of cases wasn't really that good at it.

What they did have was the best overall package. They had songs, usually written by others, that were good enough, they were fashionably dressed (or minimally dressed......), they had great marketing, they came across to the public as likeable and so on. So long as they were able to sing well enough in a studio such that a decent sounding recording could be produced, they didn't need to be brilliant at it and that was the case long before autotune was invented.

Likewise Musk or Jobs have no need to be brilliant engineers. So long as they can grasp that they can always employ others who are brilliant in that area. What they do need to be great at is the package, at selling the message and attracting investment and so on.

If you look at what Bill Gates did for Microsoft, well appearing in TV ads and on stage was a big part of it and same with the others commonly associated with computers back then. Selling the product was a huge part of what they achieved.

In contrast, well who on earth ever actually owned a BlackBerry? OK, it wasn't zero but the answer is "not many". Much the same as there's plenty of brilliant singers that nobody's ever heard of. Etc. There's more to it than just technical ability.


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## sptrawler (25 September 2020)

Absolutely Tesla use the same batteries as most other manufacturers, it is all about wrapping and selling the dream.👍

*Tesla* has been *using 18650* cells manufactured by Panasonic in Asia in the Models S and X cars since 2013. ... The most popular *battery* pack supplied by *Tesla* contains 7,104 *18650* cells in 16 444 cell modules capable of storing up to 85 kWh of energy.Aug 6, 2017


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## Value Collector (26 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> Great at grandstanding in front of a crowd.
> 
> And that's all you need to succeed.




I am also not sure why people think that Elon is a slick talker, he is pretty socially awkward, I can you really watch the first few minutes of this and honestly think his strength in public speaking???

Its not his public speaking that has got him where he is, its understanding what's possible and what is needed, and building a team that can bring his vision to life, which he has done multiple times.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2020)

From memory apple nearly went broke and I think microsoft had to in some way help them out, then they went from strengh to strengh.
Right place, right time, second time.
It is all about timing IMO.
Elon has nailed it, right place, right product, right time.
His day in the sun might not last, but he is riding it well, you have to give him credit.


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## moXJO (26 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I am also not sure why people think that Elon is a slick talker, he is pretty socially awkward, I can you really watch the first few minutes of this and honestly think his strength in public speaking???
> 
> Its not his public speaking that has got him where he is, its understanding what's possible and what is needed, and building a team that can bring his vision to life, which he has done multiple times.





PR, not necessarily slick public speaking. Between social media and fan boy stadium events these guys create energy. I mentioned the rest before about utilising others.
Elon has a host of flops that others had to correct. Some major flops that get glossed over.

But they fit the role. Steve jobs and apple and elon and tesla.


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## Smurf1976 (26 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> Between social media and fan boy stadium events



Key term there is fan boy.

Being able to create that following in the first place, and sustain it, of itself gets around a lot of other hurdles and removes the rational analysis from the purchasing decision.

Tesla fans want a Tesla. That someone else might have a better product won't change that in the slightest. It's a similar concept to saying fans of whatever football player or author want to see that person play or read their books, it's irrelevant whether or not there's someone else better. Etc.

Telsa have achieved that not simply with one product but as a company. Tell someone you've got a big battery at home and they automatically assume it's a Tesla Powerwall despite there being quite a few other battery manufacturers.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> From memory apple nearly went broke and I think microsoft had to in some way help them out, then they went from strengh to strengh.
> Right place, right time, second time.
> It is all about timing IMO.
> Elon has nailed it, right place, right product, right time.
> His day in the sun might not last, but he is riding it well, you have to give him credit.



Apple kicked Steve out of the company, and then nearly went broke, Steve came back and saved the company.

Also, remember Elon has been as you say “right place, right time, right product” 3 times so far.

He made his first couple of Million with Pay Pal, then became Billionaire with Tesla, and then Space Ex.

I think it’s a bit misleading to make him out to be a talentless promoter that got lucky, when he seems to be very smart in identifying tough problems and identifying solutions.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely Tesla use the same batteries as most other manufacturers, it is all about wrapping and selling the dream.👍




Have you watched the battery day talk I posted above, it seems they are rethinking the entire battery process from mining, to factory to battery design.


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## SirRumpole (26 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I think it’s a bit misleading to make him out to be a talentless promoter that got lucky, when he seems to be very smart in identifying tough problems and identifying solutions.




Well whatever he is we need entrepreneurs like him to at least take some of the boredom out of life and make us believe that there are better times ahead.

Whether he will overreach and bankrupt the company in the future remains to be seen.

He produces good products which is always a sign that he's got his head screwed on the right way as long as you know who doesn't steal it and produces cheap imitations that drive everyone else out of the market.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well whatever he is we need entrepreneurs like him to at least take some of the boredom out of life and make us believe that there are better times ahead.
> 
> Whether he will overreach and bankrupt the company in the future remains to be seen.
> 
> He produces good products which is always a sign that he's got his head screwed on the right way as long as you know who doesn't steal it and produces cheap imitations that drive everyone else out of the market.



That is problem IMO, Tesla has opened a factory in that country, whether they can protect their intelectual property remains to be seen.


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## CanOz (26 September 2020)

Pretty sure Tesla’s technology is open source....


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## moXJO (26 September 2020)

CanOz said:


> Pretty sure Tesla’s technology is open source....



I know they didn't file patents for spacex because they were worried China would just steal it.


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## basilio (26 September 2020)

basilio said:


> I still  don't understand where you are coming from and maybe that's where we leave it.
> For the record.
> 
> *1) No way was I a fan of Holmes*. The Wiki  story  was very clear that she was essentially a promoter and a fraud from the beginning.  The concept of getting hundreds of test results from a small thumb prick was fundamentally impossible.
> ...




There are two big news stories in electric vehicles at the moment.

Nikola is in deep xhit because of an exposed and  thoroughly documented history of corporate fraud.  Not just a bit visionary. Not missing some production milestones that were just a bridge too far. Not for going down down a development path that proved to be a dead end. 

The litany of corporate malfeasance is on the table and should cause all other potential partners to cut and run. The only other similar fraud I can remember was the Equity Company Corp scam of the 60's . (Interestingly enough the scammers attempted to takeover GM  and raid their cash reserves to say their bacon)

Tesla on the other hand is building on a proven history of technology achievements and actual production. The battery day announcements may not have the boom elements that some people look for from Tesla, but the research, plans and strategies to  remake the world car industry in the next 3 years are still breath taking.

Tesla has developed  new battery technologies that will halve the cost of batteries, do away with cobalt, recycle old batteries and increase power and battery life by 50% . And they say they will be able to produce these for millions of cars in 3 years time.  And they have the runs on the board to give  people confidence this will happen. 

My point was the value in exposing corporate fraud and having real consequences for the culprits.  And not trying to tar other  business participants with the same brush .


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## over9k (26 September 2020)

I'm with you there basilio. I also bought some NIO in the anticipation that it'll be the asian tesla. 

With a lot of this stuff, if you miss the first boat, it's usually foolish to try & get on the second but often makes sense to get on one in another country, e.g amazon vs alibaba.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2020)

sptrawler said:


> That is problem IMO, Tesla has opened a factory in that country, whether they can protect their intelectual property remains to be seen.




Tesla openly admits they can't make the world electric by them selves, its going to take a lot of companies making products, its a huge industry gap that needs filling, even if there is some cheap knock off teslas sold (just like knock off iPhones) I don't think it will prevent Tesla growing their business.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2020)

basilio said:


> Tesla on the other hand is building on a proven history of technology achievements and actual production. The battery day announcements may not have the boom elements that some people look for from Tesla, but the research, plans and strategies to  remake the world car industry in the next 3 years are still breath taking.
> 
> Tesla has developed  new battery technologies that will halve the cost of batteries, do away with cobalt, recycle old batteries and increase power and battery life by 50% . And they say they will be able to produce these for millions of cars in 3 years time.  And they have the runs on the board to give  people confidence this will happen.
> .




Yeah I know people were looking for there to be a big silver bullet battery announcement, but I actually think the battery day was even better than that.

It shows exactly how seriously Tesla is taking a holistic approach to manufacturing, its pretty exciting I haven't personally seen any other company with this level of dedication before, It shows me that this company is not going to be easily copied or replicated, they are building so many competitive advantages into their system its pretty amazing.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Apple kicked Steve out of the company, and then nearly went broke, Steve came back and saved the company.




Also, after Steve was forced out of apple in 1985 he went off and built another computer company that eventually morphed into a computer animation company called Pixar (think Toy Story), which has become one of the most successful animation studios in history, He then Sold it to Disney for $7.6 Billion and become Disneys largest shareholder, before returning to Apple to save the company and push the company to make the consumer products we know today.

So both Steve and Elon have built multiple Billion $$$ companies, To say either are muppets is wrong in my opinion.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2020)

Here is a great commentary of Tesla battery day.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2020)

Mercedes unveil hydrogen fuel cell long haul truck, should be in full production this decade, smaller trucks to be battery powered. Things are certainly moving along.








						Mercedes-Benz previews fuel-cell semi with GenH2 Truck concept
					

The Mercedes-Benz GenH2 Truck concept previews a fuel-cell semi-trailer truck due to enter customer trials in 2023.




					www.motorauthority.com


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## Smurf1976 (26 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Well whatever he is we need entrepreneurs like him to at least take some of the boredom out of life and make us believe that there are better times ahead.



Looking at what's holding EV's back, the reason why 99% of people don't have one, it's far more about "business" than "technology".

Supply chain, infrastructure, price. The solutions to them might be engineering ones but they're business problems as such.

Bill Gates didn't single handedly invent computers but what he did play a big role in was putting a computer on everyone's desk, that was Gates' stated aim at one point and ultimately achieved with a notable point that his own company didn't manufacture the hardware but rather, provided a platform upon which anyone could manufacture suitable machines that would all work exactly the same.

Likewise with EV's we need common charging infrastructure that works with them all, we need the public and governments to see the benefits and want it to happen and so on. If self-driving becomes a thing then they all need to play nicely together etc. Conceptually that's not too far removed from MS, Windows and the evolution of computing. It's about bringing it all together, new tech being relevant only so far as it's necessary to make that happen but EV's as such are already good enough technically.


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## moXJO (28 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> So both Steve and Elon have built multiple Billion $$$ companies, To say either are muppets is wrong in my opinion.




I didn't say they were "Muppets". I said they were wankers.


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## SirRumpole (28 September 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Bill Gates didn't single handedly invent computers but what he did play a big role in was putting a computer on everyone's desk, that was Gates' stated aim at one point and ultimately achieved with a notable point that his own company didn't manufacture the hardware but rather, provided a platform upon which anyone could manufacture suitable machines that would all work exactly the same.




True , but they all used the Microsoft operating system so every computer sold was an income for Microsoft.

I wonder how much technology in electric vehicles is exclusive to Tesla ? Maybe the self drive software, but that could be subject to hacking and cloning. So whether the proliferation of electric vehicles by other manufacturers will be to Tesla as computers were to Microsoft remains to be seen.


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## moXJO (29 September 2020)

Huawei is going head to head with Tesla in making evs apparently.


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## over9k (29 September 2020)

This guy is starting to sound like a real piece of work.


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## Value Collector (29 September 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> True , but they all used the Microsoft operating system so every computer sold was an income for Microsoft.
> 
> I wonder how much technology in electric vehicles is exclusive to Tesla ? Maybe the self drive software, but that could be subject to hacking and cloning. So whether the proliferation of electric vehicles by other manufacturers will be to Tesla as computers were to Microsoft remains to be seen.




I think Tesla is more like Apple than it is Microsoft.

by that I mean that Apple and Tesla are both primarily hardware manufacturers, but also control the software side of things as well.

and Apple also makes money through services eg music, cloud, movies etc, and Tesla has similar options in the future eg robo taxi and virtual power grids etc.


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## Value Collector (29 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> Huawei is going head to head with Tesla in making evs apparently.




there is room for a few manufacturers, I mean there has to be a Samsung vs IPhone, coke vs Pepsi etc etc.


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## sptrawler (29 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> there is room for a few manufacturers, I mean there has to be a Samsung vs IPhone, coke vs Pepsi etc etc.



Absolutely there has to be competition, that is why microsoft had to bail out apple, one manufacturer taking over the whole shooting match doesn't work, Tesla outsourcing manufacturing to China will help advance electric vehicle development enormously.
China has a bottomless pit of money, their R&D will supercharge the uptake of EV's IMO, what manufactured product has gone up in price when China start making them. 😉
Reverse engineering saves a ton of time.


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## Smurf1976 (29 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I think Tesla is more like Apple than it is Microsoft.
> 
> by that I mean that Apple and Tesla are both primarily hardware manufacturers, but also control the software side of things as well.



Agreed but I'll add "whilst having systems which need to work nicely with others".

An Apple device needs to access the same websites and send the same emails that a MS device does and it needs to be seamless.

A Tesla car needs to be charged using the same infrastructure that works with a Hyundai. If self-driving and cars communicating to each other becomes a thing then it needs to integrate flawlessly with BMW's and Fords for example.

Fail on that point of compatibility and the term which comes to mind isn't Apple or Microsoft but rather, Betamax (and every other proprietary format that Sony tried and failed with).

If there's one lesson from the past 40 years of technology it's to avoid proprietary formats that aren't compatible with generic mainstream ones.


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## Value Collector (29 September 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed but I'll add "whilst having systems which need to work nicely with others".
> 
> An Apple device needs to access the same websites and send the same emails that a MS device does and it needs to be seamless.
> 
> ...




yeah, all new Tesla’s now use the CCS2 charger, which Is probably going to end up as the dominant plug, so Tesla’s can charger using most new infrastructure, however even though the plugs are the same, other brands can’t use Tesla superchargers (yet)

unless another brand starts investing and rolling out super charger network like Tesla does, and decides to do mutual charging relationship, it would be crazy for Tesla to allow other brands to clog up our network, when they aren’t making the investment themselves.

——-
off course though we can still charge using other chargers with simple adapters, if you want to road trip around areas that don’t have a ccs2 out let a $20 adapter can allow you to use the other networks.

but as I always say, most charging will be done at home.


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## Smurf1976 (29 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> however even though the plugs are the same, other brands can’t use Tesla superchargers (yet)



This I see as an undesirable situation.

It means that, so far as other brands are concerned, those charging locations don't exist. Good for Tesla, not good for EV's as an overall concept.

Ultimately I'd rather see it pan out like pretty much everything else.

My generic branded desktop PC is working just fine connected to my HP monitors, Canon printer, IBM speakers and with an Apple iPhone plugged into it for example. It all works together despite the different manufacturers.

Or more to the point, my car runs just fine whether I put BP, Shell, Caltex or whatever other brand of petrol into it, I don't have to go looking for any particular brand of service station just the first one I see will do.  

In saying that I'm looking at the end product, a world where pretty much all vehicles aren't using petrol or diesel, I'm not focusing simply on right now or a few years' time.


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## Value Collector (29 September 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> This I see as an undesirable situation.
> 
> It means that, so far as other brands are concerned, those charging locations don't exist. Good for Tesla, not good for EV's as an overall concept.
> 
> ...




There is nothing physically stopping other brands using Tesla super chargers, except for the fact that Tesla doesn’t allow them.

Quite simply no other manufacturer is putting in the effort to invest in a global network of chargers, so Tesla has no reason to allow other brands to use their network when those brands aren’t interested in building charging stations for us.

I mean if BMW started a major program of installing 100’s of chargers a year and were willing to open them up to Tesla’s, Maybe we would be willing to allow them to use ours.

but if the other manfacturers expect to sell cars and piggy back off Tesla’s charging network, they can forget it.

—————
Other brands do already have access to Tesla destination chargers, they aren’t locked, it’s just the superchargers they can’t use.


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## moXJO (29 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> there is room for a few manufacturers, I mean there has to be a Samsung vs IPhone, coke vs Pepsi etc etc.



They would hit the cheap end of the market surely. High end is pretty full. 


Another I noticed was that shopping centres started taking out the ev charging stations?


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## Value Collector (30 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> Another I noticed was that shopping centres started taking out the ev charging stations?




Really??? If anything I have seen more getting installed.

maybe some abandoned chargers from a defunct company have been removed some where, but the Tesla super charger network has been expanding quite rapidly, and the destination chargers are popping up all over the place.


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## moXJO (30 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Really??? If anything I have seen more getting installed.
> 
> maybe some abandoned chargers from a defunct company have been removed some where, but the Tesla super charger network has been expanding quite rapidly, and the destination chargers are popping up all over the place.



A few were taken out. One I know were getting vandalised. Not sure why the others were taken out. I don't think they were Tesla. Maybe waiting on higher adoption?


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## Value Collector (30 September 2020)

moXJO said:


> A few were taken out. One I know were getting vandalised. Not sure why the others were taken out. I don't think they were Tesla. Maybe waiting on higher adoption?



I do know one of the early for profit companies that started installing paid chargers has gone broke, and their chargers are being removed, you actually needed an adapter to charge your Tesla on them so they were ideal for Tesla’s.

but yeah there will never be super high usage of public chargers except for the ones on road trip routes or free ones, simply because most people charge at home.


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## moXJO (30 September 2020)

Some evs available in Australia:

https://myelectriccar.com.au/evs-in-australia/


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## PZ99 (30 September 2020)

I've been looking for a EV with a 1000k range.

Something like this... https://auto.hindustantimes.com/aut...20-miles-on-single-charge-41597389288083.html

But it needs to go faster


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## Value Collector (30 September 2020)

PZ99 said:


> I've been looking for a EV with a 1000k range.




In my opinion cars with extreme range like that are not necessary and will have more drawbacks than positives.

There is almost no real world practical benefits to having 1000 Km range, think about it, do you ever actually drive 1000 km's without stopping for 15 mins or so to use the bathroom and stretch your legs? probably not, you probably make multiple stops on that 1000km trip anyway, so you are better off having a 500 or 600 km range battery, and charge for 15mins somewhere along the way on a usual pee break you will make anyway, and then your battery will be 40% lighter, which makes your car more efficient over all and saves unnecessary tyre wear.

-----------------------
If you had 600km of range at the start of a trip (because you charged at home), you 1000km road trip would look something like this.

Drive for 500km  (5 hours)
< charge for 15mins while you pee >
Drive for another 300km (3 hours)
< charge for 10 mins while you pee and grab a coffee >
Drive for another 200km (2 hours)


You will probably find that you normally stop for much longer than that in your petrol car anyway.

----------------

Last weekend I did a two vehicle road trip with family, Me in my Tesla the sister and brother in-law's car was petrol, people often mistakenly think that in such a road trip the Tesla will be the car causing the delays and inconvenience, however before the road trip even began my brother in-law had to make a special trip to the petrol station before we left that morning, where as my Tesla was full having charged over night, when we arrived in the town I was able to plug my car into a free charger right in the centre of town and walk away and enjoy family time, so I picked up a free charge and didn't suffer any time loss. (if there was no free charge 10mins at the Tesla supercharger would have been enough for the return trip)

Once we got home, I just plugged the car into my home charger and hit the shower, however the brother in-law was on empty by the time we got home and had to make a special trip to the servo and waste another 10 - 15mins of his time so he had full to go to work the next day.

The simple point is that refuelling a petrol car is something that most people a desensitised too, however when you look at it from the EV perspective, petrol stations are not at all convenient most of the time, and wastes alot of time, 8 hours a year on average, where as it only takes 20 seconds to plug into your garage once you get home, and road trips you charge the car while your off doing other things (bathroom, food, stretching etc etc)


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## PZ99 (30 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> In my opinion cars with extreme range like that are not necessary and will have more drawbacks than positives.
> 
> There is almost no real world practical benefits to having 1000 Km range, think about it, do you ever actually drive 1000 km's without stopping for 15 mins or so to use the bathroom and stretch your legs? probably not, you probably make multiple stops on that 1000km trip anyway, so you are better off having a 500 or 600 km range battery, and charge for 15mins somewhere along the way on a usual pee break you will make anyway, and then your battery will be 40% lighter, which makes your car more efficient over all and saves unnecessary tyre wear.
> 
> ...



The flaw in that logic is it doesn't take 15 minutes to fill your car with petrol. On a petrol stop, you fill the car, you pay the bill, you move the car elsewhere, have your break, and let the next car fill up.

On an EV recharge - your car stays plugged in for the entire time you're there so that station is unavailable for the entire time you're there. That means you're gonna need a trrrrruckload of EV stations to cater for folks on a 1000k trip. It's not practical.

Much better to just have the range available from the start. You then have the luxury of stopping anywhere you like for a pee break - you're not confined to park at the next available EV re-charge station.


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## Value Collector (30 September 2020)

PZ99 said:


> The flaw in that logic is it doesn't take 15 minutes to fill your car with petrol. On a petrol stop, you fill the car, you pay the bill, you move the car elsewhere, have your break, and let the next car fill up.




Thats my point.

Petrol car system is

1, park at petrol bowser, connect car.
2, wait the 5 - 6 minutes while you fill.
3, walk into store, line up and pay.
4, walk back to car and move it.
5, go find toilet, food, have your break.

(All this easily consumes 15mins or more)


EV system is

1, Park car and connect charger
2, go find toilet, food, have your break.

(you still consume the same time as the petrol car, but the time is used doing better things)




> On an EV recharge - your car stays plugged in for the entire time you're there.
> That means you're gonna need a trrrrruckload of EV stations to cater for folks on a 1000k trip. It's not practical.




You can build as many charging locations as you need as demand grows, and they are much easier to install than petrol stations that need tanks etc, you can even put charging locations in areas you couldn't put petrol stations like rest stops areas, wineries, cafes, shopping centres etc etc.

not to mention, temporary charging locations can be added to absorb long week end traffic etc.

Look at this trailer Tesla deployed in the USA to a popular charging spot to add capacity during a long weekend, when they need temporary high capacity.






and when they need permanent high capacity then can build huge charging locations


check out this super charger


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## PZ99 (30 September 2020)

Australia doesn't have the electrical capacity in the grid to supply the amount of chargers you're going to need.

I would even go as far as suggesting a federal wire and pole upgrade would be required. Can't see it happening now.

I sure as hell wouldn't wanna be around when there's a few dozen cars queued up for a charge during a load shedding event or three in summer  

Your proposal has one major obstacle.. land space


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## Value Collector (30 September 2020)

PZ99 said:


> Australia doesn't have the electrical capacity in the grid to supply the amount of chargers you're going to need.
> 
> I would even go as far as suggesting a federal wire and pole upgrade would be required. Can't see it happening now.
> 
> ...




We have been through this before in this thread.

But with the vast majority of charging happening at home, during off peak times it won't be an issue.

Also, Tesla is in the business of Solar and Battery packs, those big charging stations not only have their own solar on the roof, but Tesla could easily install battery packs to arbitrage their solar and electricity purchases to take advantage of supply and demand times if that was really required to be economic.

and remember this is going to happen slowly, we aren't going 100% electric over night, it's going to take time, so there is plenty of time to make adjustments.


--------

But feel free to by a car with a 1000km range, all I am saying is that it isn't necessary and is probably the disadvantages out weigh the positives.

My Dad just put a deposit down on a Tesla, and I talked him out of getting the long range version, after driving my car for over a year now, on many road trips I realise the long range version is not needed.





> Your proposal has one major obstacle.. land space




with most charging happening at home, we would actually need less space than what current petrol stations take up, and as I said they can be in rest stops etc where cars normally park during breaks.

and land is not something we are short of on Australias road trip routes.


----------



## PZ99 (30 September 2020)

It won't be a disadvantage for me at all. I can charge up and do the trip with whatever breaks I need safe in the knowledge the car will do the entire trip without any external aid.

I think such a vehicle will be common place before the infrastructure would ever be available for the required number charging stations needed in this country. We have a poor record of infrastructure rollout and our political system is too unwieldy to ever get this sort of thing right. NBN being a classic example.

If or when they do get it right hopefully the EV's might be cheap enough for us poor folk to buy one outright


----------



## Value Collector (30 September 2020)

PZ99 said:


> It won't be a disadvantage for me at all.




It will, because it means you are carrying around a battery that is maybe 300kg heavy than it needs to be, using more energy and more tyres.




> I can charge up and do the trip with whatever breaks I need safe in the knowledge the car will do the entire trip without any external aid.




Once you have and EV, you will realise that this type of thinking is just what's called "range anxiety", it goes away once you are used to the car and see first hand how it fits into your life.



> I think such a vehicle will be common place before the infrastructure would ever be available for the required number charging stations needed in this country




The infrastructure already mostly exists, and will just be added to as demand grows.


.







> We have a poor record of infrastructure rollout and our political system is too unwieldy to ever get this sort of thing right. NBN being a classic example.




Luckily we down rely on the government, the private sector especially Tesla is rolling out the infrastructure.



> If or when they do get it right hopefully the EV's might be cheap enough for us poor folk to buy one outright




Well thats another factor in avoiding unnecessarily large batteries, its lowers the price, the long range version of my car is nearly $20K more expensive, thanks partly to the luxury vehicle tax.

The standard range comes in below the luxury vehicle tax threshold, but the extra $14K needed to get the long range upgraded gets 33% tax added to it, meaning you have to pay $18,000 or so.


----------



## PZ99 (30 September 2020)

I wouldn't call it  "range anxiety" - just more convenience.

I highly doubt we've reached the zenith of battery technology that I'd need another 300kg in the future.

If the price of EV's is lower in the future it'll avoid anachronisms such as luxury car taxes.

Using more energy and more tyres is something I haven't worried about since the 70's.


----------



## Value Collector (30 September 2020)

PZ99 said:


> I wouldn't call it  "range anxiety" - just more convenience.
> 
> I highly doubt we've reached the zenith of battery technology that I'd need another 300kg in the future.
> 
> ...



As I said it’s up to you, but I think once you have done a road trip in a decent EV with 500km or so or range, you will find the range of the car isn’t a limiting factor once you.

And there is so many benefits to EV ownership that waiting for an affordable 1000km range vehicle for to long might be silly when there may be a 500km range vehicle in your price range that would be perfect for you in the real world

But as I said it’s a personal decision, I was just trying to point out that there are negatives that people don’t think about, and positives of large batteries are probably over stated.

———————
to be honest if battery capacity doubled over night, I would probably still take a 500 or 600km battery, and halve the weight.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 September 2020)

Value Collector said:


> You will probably find that you normally stop for much longer than that in your petrol car anyway.



As someone who's done a reasonable amount of long distance driving around Australia, my observation is that it's not so much about range per se as it's about the certainty of refueling.

In short there's lots of places selling petrol and diesel such that missing one, or finding it's broken, or deciding to take a 100km detour that wasn't planned isn't an issue. For that matter very rarely have I even needed to consciously find a petrol station - there's simply a lot of them and they're very easily recognised even from a distance such that simply filling up when I see one has been sufficient.

That approach works in Australia even if you really are driving from Adelaide to Perth. If the tank's less than half full and you see a servo then fill up there and you'll be fine. It also works fine in more densely populated countries - I've driven around the UK using the same approach, never did I consciously look for fuel just bought some when I saw it and if the tank was getting low.

Once public EV chargers are similarly ubiquitous the concerns will go away.

In the meantime well it's great that there's another EV charger 200km after this one, but if I decide along the way that I'm going to take a scenic detour to look at whatever and that adds another 60km ach way well then now it's 320km between charges. Etc. How often I do that isn't important - I only need to get stuck in the middle of nowhere once for it to be a major problem.

Realistically 500km should be fine, I can't see a problem with that in practical use, but I do see an issue once people start talking about 150km range and so on as some seem to favour as a cost reduction measure.


----------



## Value Collector (30 September 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As someone who's done a reasonable amount of long distance driving around Australia, my observation is that it's not so much about range per se as it's about the certainty of refueling.
> 
> In short there's lots of places selling petrol and diesel such that missing one, or finding it's broken, or deciding to take a 100km detour that wasn't planned isn't an issue. For that matter very rarely have I even needed to consciously find a petrol station - there's simply a lot of them and they're very easily recognised even from a distance such that simply filling up when I see one has been sufficient.
> 
> ...




In the Tesla, you just plug your destination into the navigation and it plans a route that takes you past super chargers if it knows you will need to charge.

with navigate on autopilot it will even exit the freeway for you, hahaha.

You have all the info about the chargers located on your route both on the car screen and you app, you can even see how many charging bags are available live.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 October 2020)

Real life experience driving an EV in regional areas.

It just confirms my belief that hybrids are the way to go for the foreseeable future.









						How well do electric cars really work in the bush?
					

We hit the highway for an all-electric 1,200km regional road test and made it home — just.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As someone who's done a reasonable amount of long distance driving around Australia, my observation is that it's not so much about range per se as it's about the certainty of refueling.
> .



That is it in a nutshell, in the 1980's-90's lpg was the new wonder fuel, but very few other than those who lived in the city bought an lpg only car, most converted to dual fuel.
Many country towns had the lpg filling at the rural trading store, if you turned up after Saturday lunch time it was closed until Monday morning, also I arrived at some refueling depots and they weren't operational.
Electricity is much a much more flexible and readily available fuel, however I'm sure many outlets will suffer from maintenance and damage issues, that will require specialist repair people. There are very few other than licensed electricians that like to play with H.V electrical appliances, so until the outlets are widespread, numerous and can charge all vehicles, people will be nervous about relying on them being available.


----------



## moXJO (6 October 2020)

I remember the first time I rode to qld on a 250cc motorbike (p plates) with a range of about 200-250km over an 1100km trip
It was an absolute pain as I had to plan out where the petrol stations were and the distance between. This was before smart phones. Often I was caught out as a petrol station was closed, few times I was running on fumes.

But it became easier over time, to the point you stop worrying about running out. Familiarity changes your attitude.


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2020)

Value Collector said:


> and when they need permanent high capacity then can build huge charging locations
> 
> 
> check out this super charger
> ...




When every car is electric that will be a small recharging station.


----------



## Value Collector (6 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> When every car is electric that will be a small recharging station.




Yep, as I said as demand grows so will the charging locations (growth in size and number). 

However, because most people will be charging at home we will probably never need the amount of charging stations as we need petrol stations currently.

Think about it, if it was possible to fill your car with petrol at home for 25 cents per Litre every night, how many people would be paying for the inconvenience of stoping at a petrol station?.... not many, except for people on road trips, or people that burn more than 1 tank of petrol a day or people that don't have garages, but 99% of people will be happy to never attend a service station.

Also, with the charging stations being easily installed just about any where such as existing service stations, shopping centres, rest stops, cafes, wineries, dedicated new facilities, hotels, existing parking lots etc etc etc, there is no shortage of space to put them as we need to grow.


----------



## Value Collector (6 October 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Real life experience driving an EV in regional areas.
> 
> It just confirms my belief that hybrids are the way to go for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...




He should have chosen a Tesla to drive.

here is a screen shot of the recommended Tesla charging locations.

I chose the lowest range Tesla for this, the route takes 12hours and includes 1.18 hours of charging breaks broken up between 4 stops, ( as I always say, in a 12 hours drive you will least make 4 pee/food breaks, the longest charge is 19mins, the shortest is 7mins, but you generally get to the super charger with 40% charge remaining, so you can leave a super charger earlier of stay longer and it just means you stay longer or less time at the next one.


----------



## basilio (6 October 2020)

*Electric Cars ?*

Been around for years. Why President Eisenhower himself drove around in  the families electric car for ages and used it in his 1952 election campaign.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 October 2020)

Value Collector said:


> He should have chosen a Tesla to drive.




Yes, Tesla should own all the charging stations like Toyota should own all the petrol pumps. 

Commonality of charging adapters should be sorted out before it gets out of control.


----------



## qldfrog (6 October 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Real life experience driving an EV in regional areas.
> 
> It just confirms my belief that hybrids are the way to go for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...



yes , agree I read the article, whatever the optimism or enthusiasm of the journalist, i would summarise his/her experience as dreadful...
if I get an EV, it will be for short trips etc and as such more a Nissan leaf than a Tesla.
Interestingly, I am moving on a small farm and need an ATV (aka a smalll 4WD able to negotiate steep hills wo overturning  to move woods and fencing material, bring hay, etc etc etc;a small farm workhorse
limited range needed..
I thought:  that is a great EV field: always home, recharged daily as only used during the day, not too many km a day, just need grunt..well I was disappointed as the only option I found was a Polaris EV based on acid lead batteries..yeap...
So I will go from 2 to 3 ICE vehicles in the household...
disappointing


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2020)

basilio said:


> *Electric Cars ?*
> 
> Been around for years. Why President Eisenhower himself drove around in  the families electric car for ages and used it in his 1952 election campaign.



In 1901 40% of cars were electric and 20% were petrol, the difference is development of ICE engines has come a long way, batteries haven't, but I'm sure that will change in the near future.









						Baker Motor Vehicle - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						History of the electric vehicle - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Value Collector (6 October 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, Tesla should own all the charging stations like Toyota should own all the petrol pumps.
> 
> Commonality of charging adapters should be sorted out before it gets out of control.




No, I am in favour of anyone building and owning charging stations, its just he chose a vehicle from a manufacturer that hasn't invested in building any charging infrastructure, which limits his options.

If he instead chose a Tesla, he could still have charged at all those third party locations he ended up stopping at, however he would have also had access to Teslas chargers as well, doubling his options, and the car would have planned the route and stops for him, he wouldn't have had to be googling things etc like he had, and wondering if he would make it.


----------



## Value Collector (6 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> In 1901 40% of cars were electric and 20% were petrol, the difference is development of ICE engines has come a long way, batteries haven't, but I'm sure that will change in the near future.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Also the fact that the electric light bulb was putting the USA oil industry out of business and kerosine sales plummeted, so the oil industry supported and pushed the automotive industry towards gasoline as a way to save their businesses.

But, just like almost none one today would prefer a kerosine lamp over an electric light bulb, so to will people prefer electric cars soon enough. 

People probably thought wiring houses and creating a national electric grid was a crazy idea when electricity first started out, compared to building a national electric grid from scratch installing car chargers seems easy.


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Also the fact that the electric light bulb was putting the USA oil industry out of business and kerosine sales plummeted, so the oil industry supported and pushed the automotive industry towards gasoline as a way to save their businesses.
> 
> But, just like almost none one today would prefer a kerosine lamp over an electric light bulb, so to will people prefer electric cars soon enough.
> 
> People probably thought wiring houses and creating a national electric grid was a crazy idea when electricity first started out, compared to building a national electric grid from scratch installing car chargers seems easy.



No actually it was range anxiety, same as today, but as I said batteries will improve rapidly now the requirement for ICE to be phased out.
It is a very interesting history.

From the wiki article I posted:
Acceptance of electric cars was initially hampered by a lack of power infrastructure, but by 1912, many homes were wired for electricity, enabling a surge in the popularity of the cars. In the United States by the turn of the century, 40 percent of automobiles were powered by steam, 38 percent by electricity, and 22 percent by gasoline. A total of 33,842 electric cars were registered in the United States, and the U.S. became the country where electric cars had gained the most acceptance.[37] Most early electric vehicles were massive, ornate carriages designed for the upper-class customers that made them popular. They featured luxurious interiors and were replete with expensive materials. Sales of electric cars peaked in the early 1910s.

In order to overcome the limited operating range of electric vehicles, and the lack of recharging infrastructure, an exchangeable battery service was first proposed as early as 1896.[38] The concept was first put into practice by Hartford Electric Light Company through the GeVeCo battery service and initially available for electric trucks. The vehicle owner purchased the vehicle from General Vehicle Company (GVC, a subsidiary of the General Electric Company) without a battery and the electricity was purchased from Hartford Electric through an exchangeable battery. The owner paid a variable per-mile charge and a monthly service fee to cover maintenance and storage of the truck. Both vehicles and batteries were modified to facilitate a fast battery exchange. The service was provided between 1910 and 1924 and during that period covered more than 6 million miles. Beginning in 1917 a similar successful service was operated in Chicago for owners of Milburn Wagon Company cars who also could buy the vehicle without the batteries.

*Acceptance of electric cars was initially hampered by a lack of power infrastructure,* *but by 1912, many homes were wired for electricity, enabling a surge in the popularity of the cars. In the United States by the turn of the century, 40 percent of automobiles were powered by steam, 38 percent by electricity, and 22 percent by gasoline. A total of 33,842 electric cars were registered in the United States*,* and the U.S. became the country where electric cars had gained the most acceptance.*[37] Most early electric vehicles were massive, ornate carriages designed for the upper-class customers that made them popular. They featured luxurious interiors and were replete with expensive materials. Sales of electric cars peaked in the early 1910s.

*After enjoying success at the beginning of the 20th century, the electric car began to lose its position in the automobile market. A number of developments contributed to this situation. By the 1920s an improved road infrastructure improved travel times, creating a need for vehicles with a greater range than that offered by electric cars. Worldwide discoveries of large petroleum reserves led to the wide availability of affordable gasoline, making gas-powered cars cheaper to operate over long distances. Electric cars were limited to urban use by their slow speed (no more than 24–32 km/h or 15–20 mph[37]) and low range (50–65 km or 30–40 miles[37]), and gasoline cars were now able to travel farther and faster than equivalent electrics.*


----------



## SirRumpole (6 October 2020)

Value Collector said:


> No, I am in favour of anyone building and owning charging stations, its just he chose a vehicle from a manufacturer that hasn't invested in building any charging infrastructure, which limits his options.




So should Tesla charging stations be required by law to service any make of ev ? Otherwise it would be like Toyota owning petrol stations that only served Toyotas ?

Electricity is the "fuel" that should be accessible to anyone, the same as petrol.


----------



## Value Collector (6 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> No actually it was range anxiety, same as today, but as I said batteries will improve rapidly now the requirement for ICE to be phased out.
> It is a very interesting history.
> 
> From the wiki article I posted:
> ...




If we went back 120 years, early adopters of ICE cars would have faced the same arguments from horse owners as EV drivers do toady from ICE car owners.

EG. if you were an early adopter of an ICE car, people would have thought a national Highway network of high speed refuelling stations was a pipe dream, and most towns wouldn't have had petrol stations, and you can bet you would have had range anxiety.

But building petrol stations as the number of cars grew wasn't an issue, and neither will building charging locations, because its its quicker and easier to build charging stations, and you can have your own private one at home.


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2020)

Value Collector said:


> If we went back 120 years, early adopters of ICE cars would have faced the same arguments from horse owners as EV drivers do toady from ICE car owners.
> 
> EG. if you were an early adopter of an ICE car, people would have thought a national Highway network of high speed refuelling stations was a pipe dream, and most towns wouldn't have had petrol stations, and you can bet you would have had range anxiety.
> 
> But building petrol stations as the number of cars grew wasn't an issue, and neither will building charging locations, because its its quicker and easier to build charging stations, and you can have your own private one at home.



No one is disagreeing with you, it is just you said the oil companies put the electric cars behind the 8 ball, they didn't.
120 years ago batteries limited the usefulness of electric cars, the same as batteries limited the usefulness of early electric power tools, batteries have improved to the point that battery operated cars and power tools are viable.
You don't need to be so sensitive, it is called technological improvement, who knows battery cars may be a short lived phase.
At this point in time they seem great, but 100 years ago ICE cars seemed great, time will tell.
I think my next vehicle will be a BEV, by the way.


----------



## Value Collector (6 October 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> So should Tesla charging stations be required by law to service any make of ev ?




I don't think so, that would just make other car companies lazier than they already are, and clog up our network.




> Otherwise it would be like Toyota owning petrol stations that only served Toyotas ?




I would be fine with that, especially if Toyota was operating them on a not for profit basis such as Tesla, and didn't force Toyota owners to use them.




> Electricity is the "fuel" that should be accessible to anyone, the same as petrol.




You can't buy fuel at Costco unless you are a member, some trucking companies have private refuelling locations, the Army has private refuelling locations, I don't see why anyone that builds a petrol pump or charging station privately should be forced to open them to others by law, unless they are in the business of selling fuel publicly.

Food should be accessible to anyone also, however that doesn't me I can shop for baked beans at Costco without being a member, or dine at a private club without being member.

-------------

Also, its only the super chargers that are dedicated to Tesla cars, the Tesla destination chargers (which there are many more of) can be used by anyone.


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## Value Collector (6 October 2020)

Let Me Explain a little about the different levels of Tesla Branded Charging and which are open to anyone and which aren't.


These are Tesla Super Chargers - These are Only available to Tesla owners, and can add about 50% charge to you battery in around 15mins, thats enough for about 3 hours driving, or they can take you from 0% - 100% in about 50mins (the last 20% from 80% to 100% slows down so its best just to charge to 80% and hit the road and stop at another charger for 15mins 3 hours down the road.

Tesla Super charger (just for Tesla brand cars)





But there are also Tesla destination chargers located in many locations such as shopping centres, parking lots, cafes, hotels etc etc.
These are slower chargers, but are often free. They charge at different speeds depending on what power source is hooked up, eg 3 phase power will charge at around 22 KW/H, but some only charge at 6 KW/H, but as the name suggests they are"destination chargers" designed to charge your car while you shop, work, sleep, eat , etc not so much for road trips where you are in a rush.

Tesla Destination Charger. (open to any brand of car)


----------



## Value Collector (6 October 2020)

I forgot to mention, Every Tesla sold comes with its own destination charger for free, you just have to pay an electrician to install it.




It also comes with a free mobile charger you can plug into any standard power point, good for travelling if you want to charge at a friend or families house, or other such spot, but its limited to 2 KW/h


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## Smurf1976 (6 October 2020)

Value Collector said:


> People probably thought wiring houses and creating a national electric grid was a crazy idea when electricity first started out



FWIW there was indeed massive scepticism about that one and a politics not dissimilar to today's.

When Tasmania decided in 1914 to jump in head first and build the first transmission grid in the southern hemisphere, the Australian Government issued some "official" and very stern warnings that the state would not be bailed out financially if this "risky" venture failed as the feds thought it would.

The state pressed ahead and the rest is history. 

There's always been scepticism about pretty much everything electrical right from the start.


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## qldfrog (6 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> In 1901 40% of cars were electric and 20% were petrol, the difference is development of ICE engines has come a long way, batteries haven't, but I'm sure that will change in the near future.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sadly, we have been saying that for a long time: and even the latest Tesla batteries, a HUGE step forward remain very very expensive
The amount of embedded energy in a litre of diesel or fuel is actually incredible.not as much as in a kg of uranium but still
The laws of physics are hard to break


----------



## sptrawler (8 October 2020)

Toyota to develop a fuel cell heavy haulage semi, for the North American market.








						Toyota adds to hydrogen bet with North American fuel cell truck
					

The automaker did not provide a timeline for beginning sales of the Class 8 truck but said it would debut a prototype in the first half of 2021.




					www.japantimes.co.jp


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## Value Collector (9 October 2020)

Wallmart has tripled their order of Tesla Semi Trucks, and has committed to make 20% of their fleet electric by 2022
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
.


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## qldfrog (9 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Toyota to develop a fuel cell heavy haulage semi, for the North American market.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



based on requirement, H2 is the way, not batteries for that specific use


----------



## orr (10 October 2020)

Most contributers here are well aware of Sandy Munro. His latest corprate presentation on the EV future, for anyone not familar, is in my humble opion of worthy note... 
cheers all..


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## sptrawler (11 October 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Wallmart has tripled their order of Tesla Semi Trucks, and has committed to make 20% of their fleet electric by 2022
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The more to the party, the merrier. The more manufacturers that enter the space, the faster things improve, which is better for the buyer.


----------



## ghotib (11 October 2020)

Errr... For a non-contributor who never heard of Sandy Munro till this morning, where are the corporate presentations and which one is the latest? 

Thanks


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## orr (12 October 2020)

Thanks for caring Ghoti... And yes music helps, EVH has held the headlines and he was good, But I deeply  deeply lament the loss of John MacGeoch, now some time back. 

enough of the small talk...Sandy Munro? Just pump his name into YouTube. But Know who he and his associates are; Appreciation of the pedagree and all.


----------



## over9k (13 October 2020)




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## over9k (16 October 2020)

Anybody else buy nio? I bought at $17.76.


----------



## basilio (25 October 2020)

2024 is  just 3 years away.. The speed at which Tesla is moving could outdate this forecast in even quicker time.

*Electric cars 'as cheap to manufacture' as regular models by 2024*
Analysis by UBS suggests shift away from fossil fuel vehicles may be imminent

Electric cars will cost the same to make as conventional cars, with internal combustion engines, by 2024 and an acceleration in the shift away from fossil fuel vehicles may be imminent, according to new research.

The extra cost of manufacturing battery electric cars versus their fossil fuel equivalents will diminish to just $1,900 (£1,470) per car by 2022, and disappear completely by 2024, according to research by the investment bank UBS. The research is based on detailed analysis of batteries from the seven largest manufacturers.









						Electric cars 'as cheap to manufacture' as regular models by 2024
					

Analysis by UBS suggests shift away from fossil fuel vehicles may be imminent




					www.theguardian.com


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## basilio (25 October 2020)

Interesting option for  cheaper electric cars NOW in France.

*Transition One Will Convert Your Old Gasmobile To Electric Power In About 4 Hours*
October 24th, 2020 by *Steve Hanley*

If you own a perfectly fine conventional automobile but want to join the EV revolution, you have two choices. Engineer an electric drivetrain swap yourself, which involves hours and hours of lying on you back on a creeper in your garage, or buying a new electric car. Now, if you live in France, there’s a third way. Transition One will take your current car, remove the existing internal combustion engine, replace it with batteries and an electric motor, and give it back to you in about 4 hours.

The first question anyone will ask is, “OK, that sounds interesting. How much does it cost to do this?” The answer is about $8,500 in round numbers. But wait. *The process now has the official stamp of approval from the French government, which makes it eligible for EV incentives that can bring the total cost down to around $5,500.* Once the process is complete, you will immediately derive the benefits of owning an electric car, including greatly reduced maintenance and fuel costs. Remember that gasoline costs a lot more in Europe than it does in the US. Transition One estimates the conversion will pay for itself in about 4 years time. Range after the conversion should be in excess of 100 miles — more than enough for most daily driving chores.









						Transition One Will Convert Your Old Gasmobile To Electric Power In About 4 Hours
					

Transition One will convert your conventional car to electric power in about 4 hours. Does that make sense financially?




					cleantechnica.com
				











						Transition-One | Convert your car to electric
					

Transition-One converts small internal-combustion vehicles into modern cars: electric, connected and affordable.




					transition-one.eu


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 October 2020)

basilio said:


> Interesting option for  cheaper electric cars NOW in France.
> 
> *Transition One Will Convert Your Old Gasmobile To Electric Power In About 4 Hours*



As long as they're not claiming to be the first ones to do it........   




Fully electric car show here parked outside the old Hydro workshops in Moonah (Hobart) circa mid-1990's. 

It was a standard car converted to fully electric power as a demonstration project. It was registered and fully road legal etc.


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## Value Collector (25 October 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As long as they're not claiming to be the first ones to do it........
> 
> View attachment 113679
> 
> ...




And in Sydney thirty years before that.


----------



## basilio (25 October 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As long as they're not claiming to be the first ones to do it........
> 
> View attachment 113679
> 
> ...



Yep Smurf/VC  there have been a number of conversions of petrol cars to electric cars. But to be fair these were almost always one off exercises which took much , *Much *effort and were not intended to be mass commercial projects.

There was a company called Blade in Australia which used  a Hyundai Getz as the base for an electric car conversion. That cost $48k in 2011 .. I believe that was far more complicated than this venture which, it seems, can do a conversion in 4 hours at a cost of $8000.

Obviously there have been improvements , refinements and the development of far more competively priced components especially batteries since then.

And we can still DIY in Oz..








						Electric car conversion
					

doesn't faze Australia's first manufacturer of EVs....Ross Blade of Blade Electric Vehicles in Victoria says they will take on the big companies with a cheaper and faster-charging home-made product.Their Electron Mark V, which is based on a Hyundai Getz, costs about $48,000 despite the...




					www.carsguide.com.au
				







__





						Electric Conversions | Oz Diy Electric Vehicles
					

Oz-DIY is a “do it yourself” electric vehicle specialist, supplying you the parts to make your own electric vehicle.




					www.ozdiyelectricvehicles.com


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## qldfrog (25 October 2020)

A company down victoria was converting daihatsu charade etc.batteries were lead ones and range poor but cost not that horrendous.i had a micro car in the 2000 and was toying with the idea


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## sptrawler (25 October 2020)

qldfrog said:


> A company down victoria was converting daihatsu charade etc.batteries were lead ones and range poor but cost not that horrendous.i had a micro car in the 2000 and was toying with the idea



That will still be the issue, with these conversions, great if you don't need range, they have to put the batteries somewhere.
Purpose built, they use the floor pan and fuel tank area and fit batteries from 30kw/hr to 90kw/hr, this conversion 15kw/hr.
But in Europe or a city dweller in Sydney/Melbourne, it may be o.k.


----------



## Value Collector (25 October 2020)

Value Collector said:


> And in Sydney thirty years before that.




I would love to take that old boy out for a drive in my Tesla, I doubt he is alive today though.


----------



## basilio (28 October 2020)

Good analysis of the huge challenges facing Tesla in producing sufficient  batteries to move the world to electric cars.


----------



## Junior (29 October 2020)

basilio said:


> Good analysis of the huge challenges facing Tesla in producing sufficient  batteries to move the world to electric cars.





Why don't we make batteries in Australia?  Don't we mine all the raw materials here already?


----------



## orr (29 October 2020)

Junior said:


> Why don't we make batteries in Australia?  Don't we mine all the raw materials here already?



We do Junior!!  Lead Acid... sort of says it all doesn't it..
But the new stuff???... why would we want to ?? we've got oodles of coal and gas and a Government that shovels money into developing the  19th century  burnables..
Anybody with skills in the Battery area will be welcomed with open arms and cheques by Musk...Who, as we speak is in negoation with  Jakarta on a Battery factory in Sulawasi. Why? because Indo have legislated that Nickel mined there must be value added there.
The people setting National policy in Austriala are 'captured' and willfully duchessed by vested intrests. And are screwing the countries future.

Tesla, one company, now   employs people(50,000+) the fossil fuel industries Coal, Oil and Gas in Australia (58,000). And which way are those stats trending?? In less than 12 months Tesla will employ more people than fossil fuel does in Australia; if it doesn't already....(excuse no spell check)


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2020)

orr said:


> We do Junior!!  Lead Acid... sort of says it all doesn't it..
> But the new stuff???... why would we want to ?? we've got oodles of coal and gas and a Government that shovels money into developing the  19th century  burnables..
> Anybody with skills in the Battery area will be welcomed with open arms and cheques by Musk...Who, as we speak is in negoation with  Jakarta on a Battery factory in Sulawasi. Why? because Indo have legislated that Nickel mined there must be value added there.
> The people setting National policy in Austriala are 'captured' and willfully duchessed by vested intrests. And are screwing the countries future.
> ...



So why doesnt Tesla build its giga factory here?
Well if you want to keep the politics out, it is simple, there is more profit making it elsewhere.
But who wants to be honest.lol
It is cheaper to pay for a few miners here, than pay for the construction cost, wages cost, tax cost at Australian prices, simple really.lol
If there was more profit, in making batteries here, they would.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 October 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If there was more profit, in making batteries here, they would.



As has been noted many times in the context of manufacturing, the big problem is that Australia is simply uncompetitive.

It's not just about wages. That's one factor but business can live with having one individual cost that's higher than elsewhere so long as the rest stacks up. Trouble is, the rest doesn't stack up and we're high cost in pretty much every way.


----------



## Junior (30 October 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> As has been noted many times in the context of manufacturing, the big problem is that Australia is simply uncompetitive.
> 
> It's not just about wages. That's one factor but business can live with having one individual cost that's higher than elsewhere so long as the rest stacks up. Trouble is, the rest doesn't stack up and we're high cost in pretty much every way.




You'd think there would be bang for our buck, if the Government made it easier and subsidised or provided cheap finance for aspects of getting into battery production....right?  What other choice do we have?  Surely you'd have a crack at: Solar  panel production, battery production, solar energy export (i.e. Cannon-Brookes proposal to export to Singapore), EV Vehicle/Hydrogen vehicle manufacture.  You have a crack at whole range of these industries of the future, and if just one of them sticks it would be worthwhile.

As you say wages is only one factor, as you aren't necessarily talking about unskilled labour, many of the factories will be largely automated so you're primarily looking at skilled workers.

Stubbornly sticking with fossil fuels, and crossing our fingers that it will continue to be profitable forever doesn't seem like the most intelligent strategy.


----------



## sptrawler (30 October 2020)

Junior said:


> You'd think there would be bang for our buck, if the Government made it easier and subsidised or provided cheap finance for aspects of getting into battery production....right?  What other choice do we have?  Surely you'd have a crack at: Solar  panel production, battery production, solar energy export (i.e. Cannon-Brookes proposal to export to Singapore), EV Vehicle/Hydrogen vehicle manufacture.  You have a crack at whole range of these industries of the future, and if just one of them sticks it would be worthwhile.
> 
> As you say wages is only one factor, as you aren't necessarily talking about unskilled labour, many of the factories will be largely automated so you're primarily looking at skilled workers.
> 
> Stubbornly sticking with fossil fuels, and crossing our fingers that it will continue to be profitable forever doesn't seem like the most intelligent strategy.



We used to make solar panels, sent it to China 2008


----------



## orr (1 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> So why doesnt Tesla build its giga factory here?
> 
> If there was more profit, in making batteries here, they would.
> J




Trawler are you aware of Tesla founding mission statement?
*'Tesla's mission*_ is to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy_.' ... seems they're making a bit of headway on that globally.

You'll note it is antithetical to our Federal Governments(Murdochs) intentions...

I can see a point an Australian State government will enable the positioning of either a Tesla  battery line(LiFePO) the grid or their solar tiles for sales into Australasia. The writings on the wall...
The possibilities until then are many and varied see Ross Garnaut's "Super Power" Latrobe University Press....
It's the worm like guttless pillocks that infest The national cabinet that are cruelling the opportunities for the country. 
And as to politicising; What moron and  Tech imbecile said '_Electric cars will ruin the Aussie weekend_'? ...& '_Have the worlds biggest battery have the worlds biggest pinapple_' The same one that's crapping all over a golden opportunity..
i look forward to your answers....


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2020)

orr said:


> Trawler are you aware of Tesla founding mission statement?
> *'Tesla's mission*_ is to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy_.' ... seems they're making a bit of headway on that globally.
> 
> You'll note it is antithetical to our Federal Governments(Murdochs) intentions...
> ...



I don't think it would matter what anyone wrote orr, your festering hatred makes any form of discussion end up in political acid vitriol, so debate seems pointless.
just my opinion.
As for Tesla's mission statement, doesn't mean much to me if he ends up buying most of his raw materials from us, but makes the end product overseas. Still leaves our manufacturing wanting.


----------



## Value Collector (3 November 2020)

Junior said:


> You'd think there would be bang for our buck, if the Government made it easier and subsidised or provided cheap finance for aspects of getting into battery production....right?  What other choice do we have?  Surely you'd have a crack at: Solar  panel production, battery production, solar energy export (i.e. Cannon-Brookes proposal to export to Singapore), EV Vehicle/Hydrogen vehicle manufacture.  You have a crack at whole range of these industries of the future, and if just one of them sticks it would be worthwhile.
> 
> As you say wages is only one factor, as you aren't necessarily talking about unskilled labour, many of the factories will be largely automated so you're primarily looking at skilled workers.
> 
> Stubbornly sticking with fossil fuels, and crossing our fingers that it will continue to be profitable forever doesn't seem like the most intelligent strategy.



In my opinion it’s best to import the products and services we can buy for lower than our cost of production, and divert all labour and capital towards creating products and services where we do have competitive advantages.

we have a pretty small population and a small local capital base, we need to use these resources as efficiently as possible.


----------



## sptrawler (3 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> In my opinion it’s best to import the products and services we can buy for lower than our cost of production, and divert all labour and capital towards creating products and services where we do have competitive advantages.
> 
> we have a pretty small population and a small local capital base, we need to use these resources as efficiently as possible.



The problem with that VC is you end up with the majority of work being low paid menial task based, higher wages are directed at higher skill levels where the business is trying to attract a more skilled workforce that can value add at all levels of the process. This usually involves making something, not just digging stuff out of the ground.

When the work demographic becomes mostly low paid, that then affects the tax revenue stream, which in turn affects the governments ability to supply welfare and public services.
So then the tax burden has to be changed to where the money is being made and their taxes have to be increased, which then makes their product more expensive and less competitive e.g our resources.

Vicious circle starts and ends up with a small section of the community very wealthy and the rest in poverty, which I suppose is o.k if you are in the wealthy camp, not so good if you are in the other camp.

As others have mentioned and something that built Australia to what it is today, companies should be made to value add here, or pay more for the resources they take. We mine and export all the materials required to make batteries, we should have a battery industry, we mine rare earths and process them in SE Asia, there should be a penalty for that.  

A perfect example of how easy it and sensible it would be, is unfolding as we speak in W.A.
The BP refinery at Kwinana is closing down in 6 months, on the Southern boundary of the complex is BHP brand new battery grade nickel processing plant, on the Northern boundary is the brand new nearly completed lithium hydroxide plant.
BP wants to move forward with technology and future fuels, they have the ideal place to build the worlds leading battery giga factory, will they?








						World's biggest lithium plant switched on south of Perth
					

The plant will have a permanent workforce of more than 200, the majority of whom were expected to come from the local Kwinana or Rockingham area and surrounding suburbs.




					www.smh.com.au
				








__





						404 - Page not found - CSIRO
					






					www.csiro.au
				




I know there is more money in digging and offloading dirt and better share purchases, but it isn't much of a future for our grandkids.  Meanwhile everyone, especially the media, has more to say about the U.S elections than this issue. 👍


----------



## sptrawler (3 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> In my opinion it’s best to import the products and services we can buy for lower than our cost of production, and divert all labour and capital towards creating products and services where we do have competitive advantages.
> 
> we have a pretty small population and a small local capital base, we need to use these resources as efficiently as possible.



This is the second problem with relying on one major trading partner, who supplies most of your essential items and is also the biggest importer of your resources, they have you over a barrel. 
So in reality you are relying on their continued good will, to survive, that isn't a very secure way of running a small business let alone an economy.








						Australian exporters to China face $6 billion 'D-Day'
					

China is banning Australian wine, copper, barley, coal, sugar, timber and lobster exports from Friday, an unconfirmed customs official notice says.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
_
Australian exporters to China are facing a $6 billion cliff after unconfirmed instructions from Chinese customs authorities threatened to ban Australian wine, copper, barley, coal, sugar, timber and lobster from Friday.

The notice, distributed by a customs clearance agent on Tuesday, has not been confirmed by the Chinese government, but its publication was enough to send shares in ASX-listed copper miner Sandfire Resources falling by 8 per cent.


Some Australian wine exporters have been notified by Chinese importers that Australian wine will not be cleared through Chinese customs from this Friday onwards. Australia exports $1.2 billion of wine to China each year.

Tony Battaglene, chief executive of wine industry group Australian Grape and Wine, said the message was going right across the industry to exporters of all sizes.


The trade dispute followed Australia's push for an inquiry into the origins of the coronavirus in April but has continued to intensify after Beijing imposed new national security laws on Hong Kong and advanced its territorial claims on the South China Sea.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry has denied it is ratcheting up economic pressure to win diplomatic concessions.


"China conducts friendly cooperation with other countries based on mutual respect, equality and mutual benefit," Foreign Ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin said on Monday night.

"We hope Australia can do more things conducive to mutual trust, bilateral cooperation and the spirit of China-Australia comprehensive strategic partnership._"


----------



## Value Collector (3 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with that VC is you end up with the majority of work being low paid menial task based, higher wages are directed at higher skill levels where the business is trying to attract a more skilled workforce that can value add at all levels of the process. This usually involves making something, not just digging stuff out of the ground.
> 
> When the work demographic becomes mostly low paid, that then affects the tax revenue stream, which in turn affects the governments ability to supply welfare and public services.
> So then the tax burden has to be changed to where the money is being made and their taxes have to be increased, which then makes their product more expensive and less competitive e.g our resources.
> ...




often the jobs we are sending over seas are the low income jobs in industries that people don’t want to work in.

eg, not many people aspire to working in sweat shops, sewing running shoes.

take Apple as an example their products are pretty much all made in China, however you can bet most of the revenue is going back to the USA and not China through wages and profits to USA based workers and shareholders.

I am not saying avoid all value added businesses, I am just saying do the ones that make sense, knowing that we can’t make everything, and would be worse off if we tried.


----------



## sptrawler (4 November 2020)

Autonomous driving cars will be great, but may be a way off yet, still technology moves quickly as we all know.








						Roborace autonomous car slams into pit-wall before reaching first corner
					

Roborace has hosted autonomous motorsports since 2016




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:

“_During [the lap] something happened which apparently caused the steering control signal to go to NaN (Not a Number) and subsequently the steering locked to the maximum value to the right. When our car was given a permission to drive, the acceleration command went as normal but the steering was locked to the right,” he added.

“We are looking at the log values and can see that our controller was trying to steer the car back to the left, but the car did not execute the steering command due to a steering lock.”

“The desired trajectory was also good – the car definitely did not plan to go into the wall_.”


----------



## Value Collector (4 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Autonomous driving cars will be great, but may be a way off yet, still technology moves quickly as we all know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think it will be sooner than you believe, but later than some of the cheer leaders think.


----------



## sptrawler (4 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> often the jobs we are sending over seas are the low income jobs in industries that people don’t want to work in.
> 
> eg, not many people aspire to working in sweat shops, sewing running shoes.
> 
> ...



I agree with that VC, the problem I have is as I said, when you are solely dependent on your imports from the country you are dependent on for your exports it is a very exposed position as is being shown at the moment.








						China's $6 billion trade stoush: Fears wheat is next Australian target
					

Australian wheat exporters are nervously watching the escalating trade dispute with China amid fears they could be Beijing's next target.




					www.theage.com.au
				




It is great, untill it isn't, now we are worrying about wheat, when they get a supply chain for iron ore from Africa or our easily extracted iron ore runs out, what then?


----------



## over9k (6 November 2020)

Anyone else buy nio? I got in at $17.


----------



## over9k (6 November 2020)

Even bentley's going electric.


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Even bentley's going electric.



Actually somewhat easier with an expensive car since equipping it with enough battery capacity to give it a decent range is a trivial % of the vehicle’s total cost.

It’s more difficult with a cheap car where doing the same adds a far greater % to the vehicle’s cost.


----------



## qldfrog (6 November 2020)

over9k said:


> View attachment 114253
> 
> 
> Even bentley's going electric.



Driven by strict emission rules..so not a technical, financial decision, but a mandated one.nothing to celebrate or be surprised of IMHO..not that this will 8nfluence my next Bentley purchase


----------



## over9k (6 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Actually somewhat easier with an expensive car since equipping it with enough battery capacity to give it a decent range is a trivial % of the vehicle’s total cost.
> 
> It’s more difficult with a cheap car where doing the same adds a far greater % to the vehicle’s cost.



No doubt. But also a noise & comfort thing - no NVH from an electric engine, it's almost completely silent. Aside from tyres on the road and wind over the car (and the cars have a ridiculous amount of sound deadening), an electric bentley would be like driving a cloud.


----------



## over9k (6 November 2020)

Giggity. Triple bagger not far off now. Will be interesting to see if it goes berserk tomorrow once today's run hits the news enough/enough people read about it or everyone take profits and nosedive it. 

I'm not planning on selling either way.


----------



## qldfrog (6 November 2020)

over9k said:


> No doubt. But also a noise & comfort thing - no NVH from an electric engine, it's almost completely silent. Aside from tyres on the road and wind over the car (and the cars have a ridiculous amount of sound deadening), an electric bentley would be like driving a cloud.



but is noiseless a plus? Will they add a low rumbling humming to remind the owner he spent 1m+  and not drive like any commoner/hipster in a Tesla or worse an electric taxi in Shenzhen for $5


----------



## over9k (6 November 2020)

I suspect the gold plated woodgrain massaging heated air conditioned surround sounded interior will probably help with that frog


----------



## sptrawler (6 November 2020)

They will probably just have a speaker at the front, announcing your arrival, so everyone can stand back and look on in awe. 😂


----------



## Value Collector (10 November 2020)




----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2020)

South Australia to introduce an electric car tax, based on a fixed charge and a distance travelled charge, my guess it will be monitored and if it works well adopted Australia wide.
The State is also going to install 200 charging stations.









						Electric vehicle charge sparks anger from owners, environmental groups
					

The State Government says it plans to charge electric vehicle drivers to use the roads and that two other jurisdictions are interested in following its lead within 12 months.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> South Australia to introduce an electric car tax, based on a fixed charge and a distance travelled charge, my guess it will be monitored and if it works well adopted Australia wide.
> The State is also going to install 200 charging stations.
> 
> 
> ...



Step by step freedom is going, will not be long before for a probably good reason, every car move will be tracked in RT.this is paradise for the authoritarian governments we are all now getting


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Step by step freedom is going, will not be long before for a probably good reason, every car move will be tracked in RT.this is paradise for the authoritarian governments we are all now getting



With the advent of electric vehicles, the ability to remote stop them, will stop a lot of police car chases. I suppose legislation will have to be passed to authorise its use, certainly is interesting times approaching IMO.


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> With the advent of electric vehicles, the ability to remote stop them, will stop a lot of police car chases. I suppose legislation will have to be passed to authorise its use, certainly is interesting times approaching IMO.



Or to crash a car at high speed in a wall if you dare to question a pandemic or a vote result...


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2020)

qldfrog said:


> Or to crash a car at high speed in a wall if you dare to question a pandemic or a vote result...



Well I won't touch that one.


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2020)

I just think it is great the South Australian Government is standing up to the plate and moving forward with it, rather than the "green" lobby group pushing for the Federal Government to subsidies their expenditure, with tax payers money.
The States will benefit from E.V uptake, the E.V companies will be making plenty of money, why should taxpayers have to subsidies being forced to change their cars? They don't make any money out of it.


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2020)

https://www.caradvice.com.au/891380/2021-mg-zs-ev-in-australia-from-november-december/
EV below 44k driveaway  in OZ


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2020)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.caradvice.com.au/891380/2021-mg-zs-ev-in-australia-from-november-december/
> EV below 44k driveaway  in OZ



Ah, good old China, does it again.
It was good to read this in the article:
  As an additional incentive, the company is also working to introduce free charging – which would likely come through a partnership with a supplier like ChargeFox – although details for that program are still to be finalised.


----------



## Value Collector (11 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> South Australia to introduce an electric car tax, based on a fixed charge and a distance travelled charge, my guess it will be monitored and if it works well adopted Australia wide.
> The State is also going to install 200 charging stations.
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with the idea in principle, But I think it is way to early to be considering it, they need to be encouraging adoption not adding a tax to it.

Also, as I have stated many times it’s not black as white, the savings in the form of less air pollution is probably worth more than the road tax.


----------



## over9k (11 November 2020)

Government remote interference with my property? 

Hope they've got a warrant


----------



## over9k (13 November 2020)

XPEV reported 4x estimates and so took off like a gunshot:




Which has obviously then rallied similiar asian electric vehicle producers like NIO:




I reckon I'm going to wait for the pullback on XPEV and then throw a bit at it. It was completely flatlining until today whereas NIO was on a constant uptrend.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Government remote interference with my property?
> 
> Hope they've got a warrant



FWIW even relatively small cities already track vehicle movements on key routes.

The owner isn’t identified but it’s tracked that car 123456789 went from here to there via these roads at this time.


----------



## over9k (13 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> FWIW even relatively small cities already track vehicle movements on key routes.
> 
> The owner isn’t identified but it’s tracked that car 123456789 went from here to there via these roads at this time.



Yeah but tracking (surveillance) is not interference. Very different thing. 

Surveillance is just knowing where someone/something is (when in public obviously). Interfering is crossing a line, like surveillance would be if it was in my private residence or whatever.


----------



## over9k (13 November 2020)

Nio's now made the news, and aftermarket trading suggests it'll crack $50/share tonight.


----------



## sptrawler (13 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Yeah but tracking (surveillance) is not interference. Very different thing.
> 
> Surveillance is just knowing where someone/something is (when in public obviously). Interfering is crossing a line, like surveillance would be if it was in my private residence or whatever.



I guess that depends if the car being chased by the police, is your $200,000 Porsche Taycan that has been stolen, then it might be "stuff the warrant shut the bloody thing down". 😂  😂  😂


----------



## sptrawler (13 November 2020)

over9k said:


> View attachment 114590
> 
> 
> Nio's now made the news, and aftermarket trading suggests it'll crack $50/share tonight.



Yes we talked about this in the thread a while back, Tesla and European manufacturers relocating manufacturing to China, may come back to bite them.
But what the hell, everyone seems to be fine with it, as long as it's cheaper to manufacture there.👍
The speed of decline in first world manufacturing is about to accelerate IMO, once vehicles become a commodity rather than a status symbol the reason for a lot of secondary processes (steel, aluminum etc) becomes  unnecessary  and it all moves to China.😉


----------



## Value Collector (13 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Yes we talked about this in the thread a while back, Tesla and European manufacturers relocating manufacturing to China, may come back to bite them.
> But what the hell, everyone seems to be fine with it, as long as it's cheaper to manufacture there.👍
> The speed of decline in first world manufacturing is about to accelerate IMO, once vehicles become a commodity rather than a status symbol the reason for a lot of secondary processes (steel, aluminum etc) becomes  unnecessary  and it all moves to China.😉



Tesla is still building new factories in Europe and the USA, while also expanding existing ones.

Tesla are even vertically intergrating parts of the process most other companies out source such as seats.


----------



## sptrawler (13 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla is still building new factories in Europe and the USA, while also expanding existing ones.
> 
> Tesla are even vertically intergrating parts of the process most other companies out source such as seats.




If China comes out with a similar product, for half the price, well it might be different for Tesla than everyone else but I wouldnt bet on it.


----------



## over9k (13 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Yes we talked about this in the thread a while back, Tesla and European manufacturers relocating manufacturing to China, may come back to bite them.
> But what the hell, everyone seems to be fine with it, as long as it's cheaper to manufacture there.👍
> The speed of decline in first world manufacturing is about to accelerate IMO, once vehicles become a commodity rather than a status symbol the reason for a lot of secondary processes (steel, aluminum etc) becomes  unnecessary  and it all moves to China.😉



Nah it's just the cessation of bretton-woods on account of the shale revolution - gotta build where you sell.

Toyota's two largest manufacturing plants for example are in kentucky & texas now, and they're building a third iirc.



sptrawler said:


> I guess that depends if the car being chased by the police, is your $200,000 Porsche Taycan that has been stolen, then it might be "stuff the warrant shut the bloody thing down". 😂  😂  😂



Well you can obviously shut your own personal property down, same as you can give the police permission to. Cops also have permission to ram etc a car on the run. Again, not the same thing.

Not against the idea but it's just gotta be done properly - it's like when they lock bank accounts of wanted crims or whatever, they can't just do that on a whim.


----------



## over9k (13 November 2020)

NIO now well past the $50 mark. This is now a three-bagger & counting for me, so I'm very happy. I have no intention to sell.


----------



## sptrawler (13 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Well you can obviously shut your own personal property down, same as you can give the police permission to. Cops also have permission to ram etc a car on the run. Again, not the same thing.
> 
> Not against the idea but it's just gotta be done properly - it's like when they lock bank accounts of wanted crims or whatever, they can't just do that on a whim.



I think I did say it would require legislation, but that is a small hurdle these days and it is getting smaller and smaller, as we have seen with this virus.lo l


----------



## Value Collector (14 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> If China comes out with a similar product, for half the price, well it might be different for Tesla than everyone else but I wouldnt bet on it.




people still want iPhones, even though there are cheaper products.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> people still want iPhones, even though there are cheaper products.



Cars are a product where in practice very few buy the cheapest available.

Price might be a factor in the decision but it’s not the only one.


----------



## over9k (14 November 2020)

Elon musk's tested positive for coronavirus. He then tested negative. Then positive again. Then negative again. 

Yes, really:




EV stocks have all spazzed out as a result.


----------



## qldfrog (14 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Nah it's just the cessation of bretton-woods on account of the shale revolution - gotta build where you sell.
> 
> Toyota's two largest manufacturing plants for example are in kentucky & texas now, and they're building a third iirc.
> 
> ...



Unless they are ato.or asio.or....


----------



## qldfrog (14 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Elon musk's tested positive for coronavirus. He then tested negative. Then positive again. Then negative again.
> 
> Yes, really:
> 
> ...



Just a specific case highlighting the stupidity and non scientific basis of this scare campaign.but let's keep this for the covid thread😁
Not that even if contaminated, Musk has any risk of being seriously sick with covid.so should not affect Tesla share price. Yet...


----------



## over9k (14 November 2020)

So NIO did crack $50/share:




And I was feeling GREAT.

But then:




That's a more than 20% movement peak to trough ON THE DAY.

I believe they call this "volatility". 

And here I was thinking I might actually trim a bit at the $53 mark just because that was nosebleed territory and a correction was due. How stupid was I!


----------



## sptrawler (15 November 2020)

Interesting article suggesting Britain may ban the sale of petrol and diesel cars in 2030, it sounds as though hybrids may be exempt.








						Britain to ban sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030: reports
					

The reports of the ban on combustion engines comes ahead of a major climate change speech from Boris Johnson.




					www.theage.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (16 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Cars are a product where in practice very few buy the cheapest available.
> 
> Price might be a factor in the decision but it’s not the only one.



I tend to think that is one of those historical practices, that will change as we move to a different norm with electric cars, it is just a guess but I think the trend away from having the latest and best car as a status symbol will disappear. There will always be those that want badge snobbery on display, but with electric cars they will become more of a required appliance rather than a status symbol IMO.
The difference between a twin turbo V12, or a flat 6 and an anemic 1000cc 3 cylinder is quite obvious and everyone can hear it, to get a readily obvious differentiation between electric vehicles will be awkward and to justify a price tag three times the cheap one will take some doing IMO.
There will always be those that want the latest and greatest, but I tend to think the masses will buy what is cheapest or not buy one at all and use ride share. The inconvenience of charging will stop a lot of inner city residents from buying a vehicle at all IMO. 
Time will tell. 
https://www.drive.com.au/news/austr...ut-until-next-year-124562.html?trackLink=SMH3
From the article:

*The first shipment of Australia’s cheapest electric car, the MG ZS EV, has sold out within days of the vehicle arriving in local showrooms.*
MG dealers contacted by Drive have confirmed the first 100 examples of the $43,990 drive-away MG ZS EV are spoken for, with the next deliveries due in late January, early February.
The MG ZS EV has a claimed driving range of 263km in ideal conditions – from a single charge – and undercuts its nearest rivals, the Nissan Leaf ($53,000 drive-away) and Hyundai Ioniq electric ($55,000 drive-away), by at least $9000


----------



## moXJO (16 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I tend to think that is one of those historical practices, that will change as we move to a different norm with electric cars, it is just a guess but I think the trend away from having the latest and best car as a status symbol will disappear. There will always be those that want badge snobbery on display, but with electric cars they will become more of a required appliance rather than a status symbol IMO.
> The difference between a twin turbo V12, or a flat 6 and an anemic 1000cc 3 cylinder is quite obvious and everyone can hear it, to get a readily obvious differentiation between electric vehicles will be awkward and to justify a price tag three times the cheap one will take some doing IMO.
> There will always be those that want the latest and greatest, but I tend to think the masses will buy what is cheapest or not buy one at all and use ride share. The inconvenience of charging will stop a lot of inner city residents from buying a vehicle at all IMO.
> Time will tell.
> ...



It will be all about the mods. And space I suppose.


----------



## sptrawler (16 November 2020)

moXJO said:


> It will be all about the mods. And space I suppose.



That's true but the obvious attraction IMO, wont be enough to justify the current difference in price between top end and bottom end, a bit like what is happening with top end shopping it is in decline tastes and priorities change with generations.
Interesting subject IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (16 November 2020)

moXJO said:


> It will be all about the mods. And space I suppose.



And self driving capability, if Tesla end up pulling off the full self driving robo taxi / trucking network it will be a game changer, and the software will be worth more than the car.

I think that will be Tesla’s real competitive advantage.


----------



## Value Collector (16 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> That's true but the obvious attraction IMO, wont be enough to justify the current difference in price between top end and bottom end, a bit like what is happening with top end shopping it is in decline tastes and priorities change with generations.
> Interesting subject IMO.



We may actually see the market completely change, like the Phone market has, where a lot of the older companies become irrelevant and the market is dominated by two companies.

pretty much everyone either has an IPhone or a Samsung, cars and trucks could become the same if the technology gap becomes to wide for the incumbents to cross.


----------



## sptrawler (16 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> We may actually see the market completely change, like the Phone market has, where a lot of the older companies become irrelevant and the market is dominated by two companies.
> 
> pretty much everyone either has an IPhone or a Samsung, cars and trucks could become the same if the technology gap becomes to wide for the incumbents to cross.



I tend to think that is very possible and highly likely.
I also think there will be a lot of mergers and acquisitions in the auto sector, as economies of scale and software ability becomes paramount to product acceptance and desirability.


----------



## Value Collector (16 November 2020)

Tesla Model 3 Police car, Here is a great interview with the Police officers explaining the many benefits of the Tesla as a police vehicle.


----------



## over9k (18 November 2020)

LOOK IF EVERYONE COULD JUST STOP WHIPSAWING THIS THING FOR FIVE MINUTES THEN THAT WOULD BE GREAT













Jokes aside, they're reporting earnings after the close. Will update then. I've lubed up in preparation.


----------



## over9k (18 November 2020)

Electric Car Maker Nio Beats Q3 Forecasts, Guides High While Deliveries Continue Slowing
					

Nio topped third-quarter estimates and gave strong guidance late Tuesday, after it became the target of a short seller. Nio stock fell late.




					www.investors.com
				












						Chinese Electric Car Stocks Rally Comes To Screeching Halt As Short Seller Warns
					

The huge rally in China electric car stocks came to a screeching halt Friday after short seller Citron Research targeted Nio stock.




					www.investors.com
				




"But Chinese electric-car stocks sold off after short seller Citron Research targeted Nio stock, advising investors to rotate out and book profits...

Nio, which reports Nov. 17, finished 7.7% lower, after Citron pulled its earlier bullish call on the stock and set a price target of 25.

"It is time for investors to rotate out of NIO, enjoy your profits and look for the next disruptive technology," the short seller said".



NIO's earnings report is here: https://ir.nio.com/news-events/news.../nio-inc-reports-unaudited-third-quarter-2020

And it's actually beaten estimates, yet still dropped in aftermarket trading.



I knew there was f*ckery afoot.


----------



## sptrawler (18 November 2020)

Vehicle to grid two way flow, is starting to be tested in Australia, the speed of change to E.V's is accelerating.
If it can be shown, that vehicle to grid charging/discharging is beneficial to the grid and can be accurately controlled remotely it will bring forward legislative changes to adopt BEV's IMO. If there is something in it for the Government it will be fast tracked. 
Just my opinion.








						Smart grid technology to spark savings for electric vehicle owners
					

New technology to help bring down the cost of electric vehicle ownership is being rolled out to 300 households.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (18 November 2020)

Another article on the AGL/ Federal Government vehicle to grid trail.








						Government commits another $2.9 million to electric car charging trial
					

There are plans to install 250 chargers in homes




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:

_The electric car owners involved in the three-year trial will be those who sign up to AGL's recently announced Electric Vehicle Plan, with 200 of them to receive free smart chargers and 50 of them to receive bi-directional chargers at a reduced price for their Nissan Leaf vehicles.

Another 50 internet-connected Tesla owners, who already have their own chargers, will have their charging monitored by AGL_.
*Hey @Value Collector  are you signed up?*

Further from the article:

_The $2.9 million funding commitment comes after ARENA committed another $838,000 to a two-year trial of smart-charging infrastructure with Origin Energy, as well as providing a $3.5 million grant to charging provider Jet Charge to develop its smart-charging technology.

It also joins ARENA's $74.5 million Future Fuels Fund, which will subsidise the adoption of electric charging infrastructure in businesses and regional communities._


----------



## sptrawler (18 November 2020)

And for those who think the manufacturers aren't serious, think again, they will cut their costs dramatically when they get rid of the ICE running gear.








						Volkswagen pushes ahead with electric future, retools factories - report
					

Volkswagen want to take on Tesla




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
_In a call with investors and analysts on Monday, Volkswagen CEO Herbert Diess said the car company was spending €73 billion (AU$118B) to convert two German factories to support production of electric vehicles, reports news outlet __Reuters_.


----------



## Value Collector (18 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Another article on the AGL/ Federal Government vehicle to grid trail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



not yet, I am an agl customer, but haven’t been asked to co-operate in any way.


----------



## qldfrog (19 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> And for those who think the manufacturers aren't serious, think again, they will cut their costs dramatically when they get rid of the ICE running gear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It will cut their factory costs too as they will stop selling.
The generic made in China EV car will be everywhere
Look at bicycles: a few high end carbon brands, the rest bought at KMart.cars will be same and as bikes les and less popular against a mix of taxation and regulations


----------



## sptrawler (19 November 2020)

qldfrog said:


> It will cut their factory costs too as they will stop selling.
> The generic made in China EV car will be everywhere
> Look at bicycles: a few high end carbon brands, the rest bought at KMart.cars will be same and as bikes les and less popular against a mix of taxation and regulations



I agree with you frog, cars are fast becoming just another consumable, a few years ago even the worst car was worth repairing e.g recon the engine, gearbox etc, now perfectly good looking cars are dumped on the side of the freeway with the number plates removed.

There will always be the niche market for high quality products, be that cars, watches, tools or anything else, but the majority will buy the value for money Chinese product as has happened with everything else.

If investors think electric cars will be different, I think they will do their dough.
The biggest problem IMO, is companies outsourcing their production to China and expecting a different outcome to what has happened in the past. Greed is the downfall of most companies, get too big too fast, or get a product made in a low cost country and expecting them not to copy it.
Just my opinion.


----------



## over9k (20 November 2020)

Go on. Tell me this isn't going to plummet tomorrow after I held on a day where it not just flew but even closed at session highs.


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2020)

Racing cars lead the development and improvement of their road going counterparts and the U.K is going to introduce mild hybrids into the touring car series, which should create some interest as they compete with ICE vehicles.
https://www.powerelectronictips.com/hybrid-evs-come-to-touring-car-racing/


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> South Australia to introduce an electric car tax, based on a fixed charge and a distance travelled charge, my guess it will be monitored and if it works well adopted Australia wide.
> The State is also going to install 200 charging stations.
> 
> 
> ...



Well that was posted on November the 11th and already Victoria are following suite, but raising it by including hybrids which already pay fuel excise.  Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't fuel excise a Federal tax?
Lucky a Liberal Government didn't come up with that one.  On the face of it, a hybrid certainly won't save you much, one would have thought it would be somehow linked to battery size.
A 9Kw/hr battery in a car, will still use mostly petrol, whereas a 90Kw/hr BEV will use no petrol, it doesn't seem very proportionate to me.








						Victoria to tax electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles from 2021
					

They will be taxed per km




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:

_Dan Andrews’ Labor Government confirmed it would charge owners of electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles a usage fee from July 2021.
Victorian Treasurer Tim Pallas confirmed the per-kilometre-usage-fee on Saturday afternoon.
Under the new laws, full electric vehicles would be charged 2.5 cents per kilometre travelled while plug-in hybrid vehicles would face a usage tax of 2.0 cents per kilometre travelled_.


----------



## over9k (24 November 2020)

__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				




Musk now the world's 2nd richest person. Was worth 27 billion at the start of the year, now worth 127 billion.


----------



## sptrawler (24 November 2020)

The decision as to which electric option H2 fuel cell or battery, is starting to evolve, it is becoming clear both options are going to be pursued for different applications. It all points to a very good outcome for consumers IMO.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/ineos...grenadier-targeted-124625.html?trackLink=SMH0
From the article:

When it arrives in Australia in approximately 2022, the Grenadier will have BMW-sourced 3.0-litre petrol and diesel engines under the bonnet. This announcement confirms the development of a hydrogen-powered Grenadier in the future however, as the new companies makes good on it's promise to diversify powertrain options.

Battery electric power hasn't been regarded as a good fit for the Grenadier, because heavy battery packs limit payloads, and a battery-powered driving range can be limited under load or working hard.


Mark Tennant, Ineos Automotive commercial director told British finance site This Is Money: "We do think that, longer term, the automotive business will simply be battery-electric vehicles. That might be right for smaller, lighter, cars but won't be suitable for this class of vehicle."

"We see hydrogen as a really viable technology, especially for large SUVs."

"We already supply a lot of commercial fleets today, such as buses. For us, that looks like a much better technology option than pure electric."

While Ineos Automotive is a newcomer to the car industry, parent company Ineos is a big hitter in the world of chemicals and petrochemicals. Ineos currently produces 300,000 tonnes of hydrogen every year as a by-product of chemical production.
Ineos is also Europe's largest operator of electrolysis, which uses renewable energy to produce hydrogen for power generation.


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Well that was posted on November the 11th and already Victoria are following suite, but raising it by including hybrids which already pay fuel excise.  Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't fuel excise a Federal tax?
> Lucky a Liberal Government didn't come up with that one.  On the face of it, a hybrid certainly won't save you much, one would have thought it would be somehow linked to battery size.
> A 9Kw/hr battery in a car, will still use mostly petrol, whereas a 90Kw/hr BEV will use no petrol, it doesn't seem very proportionate to me.
> 
> ...




It seems completely at odds with what Victoria is trying to achieve in other areas.

For Example they have recently announced an $800 Million package to improve the states energy efficiency by helping people buy more energy efficient home appliances. You would think if that is their goal then it would be in their interests to get as many EV's on the road as possible, and not rush into prematurely bringing in taxes that are likely to turn consumers off due to miss understandings.

On the one hand they are providing rebates for people to buy batteries, and then introducing taxes on something that is likely to offset far more green house gases.

_*



			The Victorian government has unveiled a massive nearly $800 million home energy saving package that will incentivise smart appliances and heating systems, boost the energy efficiency standards of new and existing homes, and expand the state’s solar and battery rebate scheme.
		
Click to expand...



https://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/vi...nted-800-million-into-home-energy-efficiency/*_


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Battery electric power hasn't been regarded as a good fit for the Grenadier, because heavy battery packs limit payloads, and a battery-powered driving range can be limited under load or working hard.
> .




Isn't that vehicle in a similar class to Cyber Truck, I can't see a problem with making it full electric.


----------



## sptrawler (24 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Isn't that vehicle in a similar class to Cyber Truck, I can't see a problem with making it full electric.



I'm sure the market will sort it out, I think it will be horses for courses, with BEV's being more mainstream.


----------



## sptrawler (24 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> It seems completely at odds with what Victoria is trying to achieve in other areas.
> 
> For Example they have recently announced an $800 Million package to improve the states energy efficiency by helping people buy more energy efficient home appliances. You would think if that is their goal then it would be in their interests to get as many EV's on the road as possible, and not rush into prematurely bringing in taxes that are likely to turn consumers off due to miss understandings.
> 
> ...



I wonder, if they are just getting the jump on another tax stream? Getting in now, before BEV's are mainstream people will accept is because it doesn't affect many yet, introducing it later as a revenue stream would be much more problematic. 
I remember Bob Hawke when he was first running for office, he said the first thing he would do was remove fuel excise, as it was a tax on the workers of Australia who had to drive to work, well as history proves what someone says may not be what they do.


----------



## over9k (24 November 2020)

Well, roads cost money. Where's the money going to come from?


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder, if they are just getting the jump on another tax stream? Getting in now, before BEV's are mainstream people will accept is because it doesn't affect many yet, introducing it later as a revenue stream would be much more problematic.
> I remember Bob Hawke when he was first running for office, he said the first thing he would do was remove fuel excise, as it was a tax on the workers of Australia who had to drive to work, well as history proves what someone says may not be what they do.




Probably, I did the math on the tax and even with the 2.5 cent tax, it still means the using a Battery Electric Vehicle when you can charge for 23 cents/KWH is equivalent to buying petrol at 56 cents per litre, But a lot of people won't do the math, and they will think this Tax some how makes EV's not worth it, which is sad considering all the benefits Australia would get if we had higher EV up take.


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Well, roads cost money. Where's the money going to come from?




I have no issue with the Tax system being altered so Ev's pay their fair share, I just think its way to short sighted to do it prematurely, there is just far to Ev's on the road to actually bring in any decent revenue, and at this stage they should be encouraged, and we should worry about taxing them later, say 5 years from now.


----------



## over9k (24 November 2020)

Alright, not saying I disagree with you, but I'll play devil's advocate: 

Isn't that a bait & switch? Or would we grandfather it for older cars like we do with design regulations etc with current vehicles?


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Well, roads cost money. Where's the money going to come from?



A particular issue with roads is who funds them.

Most roads are owned by local government (councils) and funded by ratepayers. Wherever you live, the street out the front will be a local government road unless you're in the middle of nowhere and the nearest road is a highway.

Most other roads are state government. These are mostly highways or other major roads and normally don't have housing built along them.

A few highways are federally funded.

Which leads to a rather strange system where the federal government collects the money and the states constantly beg for some.


----------



## over9k (25 November 2020)

All EV's have kept pulling today on news of trump allowing biden to begin the transition.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Alright, not saying I disagree with you, but I'll play devil's advocate:
> 
> Isn't that a bait & switch? Or would we grandfather it for older cars like we do with design regulations etc with current vehicles?



I'll observe that there's quite a history of that when it comes to fuel.

Diesel was free of tax back when even most trucks and buses used petrol. Then diesel became common for heavy vehicles. Then they taxed it.

Heating oil was another one. Pretty much every house built from the mid-1960's through to late-70's had oil heating. Then they sent the price to the moon at the end of the 70's.

LPG same deal. No excise until it became popular then on went the tax (for automotive use). LPG for automotive use is all but dead now - consumption is down almost 75% over the past decade (government stats) and new LPG vehicle installations are close to zero. It's only a matter of time until physical availability of the fuel for remaining vehicles becomes problematic since declining volumes are making it not worthwhile to keep selling.

So there's a few precedents there.


----------



## over9k (25 November 2020)

I can't see a constant tracking of the vehicle being accepted. That'd be a big brother nightmare. 

Maybe someone coming to check the odometer every quarter like the power & water company does with the meters?


----------



## over9k (25 November 2020)

I still think the asian electric vehicle manufacturers have legs in them yet on account of governments being desperate to reduce the horrific air quality (smog). That still exists here in the first world, but it's of particular concern over there.


----------



## Value Collector (25 November 2020)

over9k said:


> Alright, not saying I disagree with you, but I'll play devil's advocate:
> 
> Isn't that a bait & switch? Or would we grandfather it for older cars like we do with design regulations etc with current vehicles?




I don’t think it’s a bait and switch, I mean EV’s are still cheaper even with the Tax, but delaying the Tax is a way to encourage it’s up take, think of it like a temporary discount.

They did exactly the same same thing with LPG, they delayed the Fuel excise on LPG for 10 years, giving consumers lots of notice that in 10 years a fuel excise would be incrementally added to LPG.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 November 2020)

I'd like to see a government(s) lead the way and electrify their own car fleets.

That would provide a startup infrastructure and show the taxpayers that governments are serious about ev's.


----------



## sptrawler (25 November 2020)

Looks like the Chinese car maker LDV, will be the first manufacturer to get an electric ute into the Australian market.








						LDV T60 electric ute revealed
					

EV version of T60 replacement being considered for Australia




					www.motoring.com.au
				



From the article:

_An electric version of the replacement for the LDV T60 pick-up potentially arriving in Australia in 2021 has been unveiled at the Guangzhou Auto Show in China.

Dubbed the Maxus New – Maxus being the name LDV utes are sold under in China – it is an obvious close relation of the big-grilled Maxus Pick-Up Concept first unveiled at the Chengdu motor show mid-year.

According to the Chinese website autohome.com.cn, the Maxus New comes with a 130kW/310Nm permanent magnet synchronous e-motor fed by an 88.55kWh battery. The range between recharges is claimed to be as much as 535km._


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> They did exactly the same same thing with LPG, they delayed the Fuel excise on LPG for 10 years, giving consumers lots of notice that in 10 years a fuel excise would be incrementally added to LPG.



They did but since excise was applied LPG has lost three quarters of the automotive market it previously had and is fast heading to extinction.


----------



## Value Collector (25 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> They did but since excise was applied LPG has lost three quarters of the automotive market it previously had and is fast heading to extinction.



That’s more to do with taxi’s moving to Hybrid Technology and burning petrol rather than LPG.


----------



## sptrawler (25 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> That’s more to do with taxi’s moving to Hybrid Technology and burning petrol rather than LPG.



Actually it is due to the difference in fuel economy, I had four cars converted to dual fuel (Mitsubishi express 84, Lancruiser 60 series 88, EA  ford Fairmont 92 and a Landrover 300Tdi 97), the reason that gas is no longer a viable conversion is, the drop in fuel economy cancels any advantage in fuel cost.
As smurf said years ago LPG autofuel was less than half the cost of petrol, so a 30% drop in economy was still worth it, now I notice locally LPG is 89c and unleaded is $1.10, it is as simple as that.
The conversion cost isn't worth it and after 10 years the tank and system has to be pressure certified, so when the cost of LPG went up people didn't bother.


----------



## Value Collector (25 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Actually it is due to the difference in fuel economy, I had four cars converted to dual fuel (Mitsubishi express 84, Lancruiser 60 series 88, EA  ford Fairmont 92 and a Landrover 300Tdi 97), the reason that gas is no longer a viable conversion is, the drop in fuel economy cancels any advantage in fuel cost.
> As smurf said years ago LPG autofuel was less than half the cost of petrol, so a 30% drop in economy was still worth it, now I notice locally LPG is 89c and unleaded is $1.10, it is as simple as that.
> The conversion cost isn't worth it and after 10 years the tank and system has to be pressure certified, so when the cost of LPG went up people didn't bother.



My previous car was LPG, it burned about 20% more fuel, so year you need to multiple the gas price by 1.2 to get a comparable figure.

but LPG was always a “Taxi fuel”, but almost all taxis these days are hybrids.


----------



## sptrawler (25 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> My previous car was LPG, it burned about 20% more fuel, so year you need to multiple the gas price by 1.2 to get a comparable figure.
> 
> but LPG was always a “Taxi fuel”, but almost all taxis these days are hybrids.



Nearly 90% of taxis were dedicated lpg Ford Falcons, they aren't produced anymore, so the Toyota Camry hybrid has become the taxi of choice for size reliability and running costs.
But it would be wrong to suggest that the change over was made, because hybrid was a better choice, it was made because it basically became the only choice. If the Falcon was still being produced I doubt the fleet would have changed yet.
Just my opinion


----------



## Value Collector (25 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Nearly 90% of taxis were dedicated lpg Ford Falcons, they aren't produced anymore, so the Toyota Camry hybrid has become the taxi of choice for size reliability and running costs.
> But it would be wrong to suggest that the change over was made, because hybrid was a better choice, it was made because it basically became the only choice. If the Falcon was still being produced I doubt the fleet would have changed yet.
> Just my opinion




I am not saying Hybrids are a better choice (although they might be, I haven’t crunched the numbers), just that now that all the taxis are hybrids burning petrol, the market for LPG has obviously shrunk, so LPG bowsers are slowly disappearing, just like petrol bowsers will as electric cars take over.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> That’s more to do with taxi’s moving to Hybrid Technology and burning petrol rather than LPG.



It's not just taxis though, the entire market for the fuel for automotive use has dropped just on 75% over the past decade.

That's a massive rate of decline considering that only about 50% of the vehicle fleet would have turned over during that time and anecdotally at least, there's been quite a few LPG systems ripped out of cars that have remained in use on petrol only. Once the 5 yearly inspection is due, it's just not worthwhile paying the $ given the lack of any real saving on fuel costs.

A particular problem is dedicated LPG vehicles which were still being sold just a few years ago. It's only a matter of time before they become problematic to obtain fuel for given that service stations are already moving away from selling it.

The issue of refueling infrastructure is likewise relevant to EV's and hydrogen cars. Buy either and, unless your usage is such that you can do all EV charging at home, you're basically making a bet that the infrastructure is developed and exists for the life of the car.

I'm not arguing against anything, just highlighting some issues.


----------



## Value Collector (26 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's not just taxis though, the entire market for the fuel for automotive use has dropped just on 75% over the past decade.
> 
> That's a massive rate of decline considering that only about 50% of the vehicle fleet would have turned over during that time and anecdotally at least, there's been quite a few LPG systems ripped out of cars that have remained in use on petrol only. Once the 5 yearly inspection is due, it's just not worthwhile paying the $ given the lack of any real saving on fuel costs.
> 
> ...




I don’t have any numbers,  but it would seem to me that taxis represented a very large portion of the LPG market, especially by kilometres driven.

sure there is non taxi LPG vehicles (such as my old commodore), but one taxi would have consumed 20 times the amount of fuel I would burn, if not more.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t have any numbers, but it would seem to me that taxis represented a very large portion of the LPG market, especially by kilometres driven.



I don't have a further breakdown but looking at the government statistics, LPG sales are divided into "Automotive" and "Non-Automotive" uses (the latter being bottled gas for homes, industry etc).

The "Automotive" component is down almost 75% for 2019-20 as compared to 2010-11.

That's a pretty massive decline for anything to lose three quarters of its market in less than a decade. It becomes what I call a "runout technology" - that point where something is still in substantial use but there's little or no ongoing investment into it such that going to zero is inevitable.


----------



## sptrawler (26 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't have a further breakdown but looking at the government statistics, LPG sales are divided into "Automotive" and "Non-Automotive" uses (the latter being bottled gas for homes, industry etc).
> 
> The "Automotive" component is down almost 75% for 2019-20 as compared to 2010-11.
> 
> That's a pretty massive decline for anything to lose three quarters of its market in less than a decade. It becomes what I call a "runout technology" - that point where something is still in substantial use but there's little or no ongoing investment into it such that going to zero is inevitable.



The Caltex service station down the road from my place, in a heavily populated area of Perth, removed the autogas tank about 6 months ago. So as you say smurf, filling will become an issue.


----------



## orr (26 November 2020)

Some quality thinking/analysis on Road user charges from the guy's at RMIT...









						Think taxing electric vehicle use is a backward step? Here's why it's an important policy advance
					

Electric vehicles would lower emissions, but if their lower running costs lead to increased car use that creates a whole lot of other costs for our cities.




					theconversation.com
				




And an easy extrapolation from the following shows the laggard nature and rear view perspective  of  20 of the last 24yrs of Federal policy and the overt risk to which it now exposes us..  such is life in the provinces...



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/biden-electric-cars/2020/11/25/5076e316-2e6f-11eb-bae0-50bb17126614_story.html


----------



## Value Collector (26 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The Caltex service station down the road from my place, in a heavily populated area of Perth, removed the autogas tank about 6 months ago. So as you say smurf, filling will become an issue.



Yep, BP service stations are removing them every time they refurbish a site.

but the decline will be a jagged line, because every time a service station removes an LPG bowser, LPG sales at the remaining bowsers at other sites increases, which would give a little incentive for them to continue offering LPG at those sites.... at least for a while


----------



## Value Collector (26 November 2020)

orr said:


> Some quality thinking/analysis on Road user charges from the guy's at RMIT...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




good luck trying to convince people this new highly visible tax is cheaper than the hidden taxes that they don’t really even think about, it’s hard enough to convince people that EV’s are a good idea even before they were taxed in such a visable way.

what I have learned is you can have all the facts and figures that prove something is a great idea, but that doesn’t mean you can over come people’s gut biases and Bro science.

As I said if the government actually cared about improving air quality in cities, reducing carbon emissions and being more energy independent they wouldn’t rush to bring in the tax until after the public opinion of EVs positives has fully sunk in, and people can understand the real economics of the situation.


----------



## sptrawler (26 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> As I said if the government actually cared about improving air quality in cities, reducing carbon emissions and being more energy independent they wouldn’t rush to bring in the tax until after the public opinion of EVs positives has fully sunk in, and people can understand the real economics of the situation.



If the Governments cared about improving air quality in cities, the first thing they would do is bring in a congestion tax, but then they would have to improve public transport.
Much easier just to tax the individual, my guess is the wheels are already in motion, to push hard toward BEV's.
So they are getting in the ground work, tax first, ask questions later. 
As I said earlier, the longer they wait to introduce it, the more people it effects as more have BEV's, the more the political backlash.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 November 2020)

Value Collector said:


> what I have learned is you can have all the facts and figures that prove something is a great idea, but that doesn’t mean you can over come people’s gut biases and Bro science.



I used to get quite angry about that.

Then I realised I wasn’t going to convince more than a tiny minority but there was money to be made via applying that understanding to the stock market.


----------



## basilio (28 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I used to get quite angry about that.
> 
> Then I realised I wasn’t going to convince more than a tiny minority but there was money to be made via applying that understanding to the stock market.




Interesting perspective.. I agree in principle but I also suspect that much of the profits in the stock market comes from misinformation, often outright lies and creating false markets. 

Picking high quality ideas, developed by skilled engineers/technicians and then monetised by businessmen who don't just grab all the cash for themselves and their mates sounds great. (And I do attempt to follow those directions.)

But it also seems that much easier profits are made flogging investment scams, dodgy products and quite dangerous products.

But maybe I'm being too cynical and picky ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 November 2020)

basilio said:


> Interesting perspective.. I agree in principle but I also suspect that much of the profits in the stock market comes from misinformation, often outright lies and creating false markets.



I see the principle more widely.

As soon as I see someone saying that EV's will have replaced petrol anytime prior to 2040, I know they haven't done the maths. Because it takes 20 years to turnover the fleet and right now in 2020 most new car sales are petrol or diesel or at most hybrids. As such, a fully electric fleet this side of 2040 is not happening period, and it's most unlikely prior to 2050 given that we'll still be selling new petrol / diesel cars for some years yet. 

Or for another energy-related one, in the relatively recent past there was a lot of enthusiasm for the idea that we ought switch from coal to gas for power generation. Government thought the idea was great, there was one very large company seeking to spend $ billions to dive in head first and so on.

Not this Smurf though - all I needed to do was look at the gas reserve data in order to get right what everyone from the Prime Minister to environmental groups to the CEO of said company had gotten completely wrong.

Genius? Not at all - just looking at the data, which is freely available to anyone at no cost, and spotting the fatal flaws in the idea. Can't burn gas that doesn't exist. Note the current move to now import gas to Victoria.

There are many things like that where technology advocates, governments, management of companies, all sorts of lobby groups and so on simply don't look at freely available data and find that what they're saying doesn't add up. 

That tends to be an opportunity for investment.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2020)

The other issue of course is primary producers, the ability to change over all their machinery to electric, is not going to happen in the foresable future. The logistics of it are enormous.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The other issue of course is primary producers, the ability to change over all their machinery to electric, is not going to happen in the foresable future. The logistics of it are enormous.



Where I think much gets lost is seeing it as an all or nothing proposition.

Some EV advocates will argue that pretty much everyone ought be driving an EV and that petrol will be obsolete in 10 or even 5 years.

EV detractors point to the person who does 1000km trips to the middle of nowhere towing a caravan.

In truth we're likely to see a considerable period of overlap as technology changes and that's not a problem. There's no reason why some shouldn't have an EV just because it doesn't work for everyone and so on.

Even on the same farm or in the same city's bus fleet we'll likely see a considerable period of transition. I'm told by one operator that they run buses for 25 years and that won't likely change so assuming they go electric or hydrogen at some point, they'll have quite a long transition period where they've still got diesel buses on the road too. Some already have natural gas powered buses for example but generally not for the whole fleet, it's a mix.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 November 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> I see the principle more widely.
> 
> As soon as I see someone saying that EV's will have replaced petrol anytime prior to 2040, I know they haven't done the maths. Because it takes 20 years to turnover the fleet and right now in 2020 most new car sales are petrol or diesel or at most hybrids. As such, a fully electric fleet this side of 2040 is not happening period, and it's most unlikely prior to 2050 given that we'll still be selling new petrol / diesel cars for some years yet.
> 
> ...




We are the largest gas exporter in the world, the gas exists it just gets shipped overseas and we have to buy it from somewhere else for our own needs.

Not that I see gas as a replacement for coal. The main work will be done by renewables plus storage with gas power stations there in case of long periods of unfavourable weather.

Which is why governments will have to build them, private enterprise doesn't invest in assets that lay dormant for long periods of time.

But gas turbine plants don't have to run on gas, they could use hydrogen or ethanol from sugar cane. And if they are infrequently used then the drain on the gas fields should be small. 

We just need to build enough gas storage to store sufficient quantities to satisfy the infrequent use they will be put to.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 November 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> We are the largest gas exporter in the world, the gas exists it just gets shipped overseas and we have to buy it from somewhere else for our own needs.



We export gas from Qld, NT and WA.

There's stuff all left in the "traditional" sources supplying the combined region of NSW, ACT, Vic, SA and Tas.

The idea of a mass switch from coal to gas in Victoria for baseload generation that I was commenting on always was going to require some combination of coal seam gas from NSW, long distance pipelines across the country or imported LNG - none of which are cheap enough for the idea to stack up.

Therein lies my point - classic case jumping on the bandwagon whilst failing to grasp what such a plan really involved. No surprise that in due course the idea quietly disappeared.

Same logic applies in both directions. There's plenty who are dismissing the role of EV's on the grounds that they do have limitations but are failing to grasp that those limitations aren't relevant to everyone. For a company car that's parked at the office for considerable periods and which never goes out of the city, and EV leaves petrol for dead if for no reason other than the ease of fueling it.

In all this energy and transport stuff I think much detail gets lost. What works on the energy supply side in Queensland is different to Victoria. What works for a company car based in the city is different to what works for someone who frequently drives long distances. Etc. There's a lot of detail in it all, there's no single answer to most of it.

Even for a user like government, what works for a car used by office or technical staff to get between sites is very different to what's required of a marked police car or ambulance for example.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2020)

Like you say @Smurf1976 , it is the all or nothing, black or white mentality that is dominating everything at the moment, it doesn't allow for sensible debate.
The worst part is the media fuel it all the time.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2020)

basilio said:


> Interesting perspective.. I agree in principle but I also suspect that much of the profits in the stock market comes from misinformation, often outright lies and creating false markets.
> 
> Picking high quality ideas, developed by skilled engineers/technicians and then monetised by businessmen who don't just grab all the cash for themselves and their mates sounds great. (And I do attempt to follow those directions.)
> 
> ...




fraud happens, but to say “much” of the profit happens that way is no where near correct, think about it 100’s of Billions of dollars is paid out to shareholders as dividends each year alone.

We all pay a lot of attention to the big capital gains made at certain times by different companies, but steady dividends over the years from business as usual create rivers of cash flowing into investors pockets


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> We are the largest gas exporter in the world, the gas exists it just gets shipped overseas and we have to buy it from somewhere else for our own needs.
> 
> Not that I see gas as a replacement for coal. The main work will be done by renewables plus storage with gas power stations there in case of long periods of unfavourable weather.
> 
> ...




private industry does invest in gas turbines even if they will be dormant sometimes, because it allows them to sell their renewable power for more.

the reason for this is that selling guaranteed power contracts brings in more $$$ than selling the intermittent supply, so the way Infigen did it was that they owned 3 wind farms, 2 batteries and one gas power plant, and would sell guaranteed power supply contracts at high prices for steady supply, and between the wind farms, batteries and gas plant they could supply steady base load power at a contracted rate high than they would get selling intermittent “run of plant” contracts.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2020)

Good news on the electric car front, VW and Tesla going head to head, to bring in affordable BEV's.
This will put a torch under the ICE manufacturers IMO, BEV tech leader and one of the worlds largest manufacturers going head to head, will certainly accelerate the process.
This is really good news for the consumer. 








						Tesla and Volkswagen to compete with new affordable electric cars at ~$25,000 to $30,000
					

The electric car market is about to be accessible to a lot more people as we’ve now learned that Tesla and Volkswagen, the two market leaders for electric vehicles, have now both greenlit electric car programs that are going to start at ~$25,000 to $30,000. In surveys about going electric, the...




					electrek.co


----------



## qldfrog (28 November 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Nearly 90% of taxis were dedicated lpg Ford Falcons, they aren't produced anymore, so the Toyota Camry hybrid has become the taxi of choice for size reliability and running costs.
> But it would be wrong to suggest that the change over was made, because hybrid was a better choice, it was made because it basically became the only choice. If the Falcon was still being produced I doubt the fleet would have changed yet.
> Just my opinion



Basically: regulation or economic pressure choose technology, not merit...
Nothing new..


----------



## sptrawler (1 December 2020)

This Nikola sounds like a dodgy lot IMO, GM pulling the pin on the partnership.





						No Cookies | Daily Telegraph
					

No Cookies




					www.dailytelegraph.com.au


----------



## basilio (1 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> This Nikola sounds like a dodgy lot IMO, GM pulling the pin on the partnership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There was a devastating expose on Nikola in September. I highlighted it on ASF.
At the time I thought the revelations would effectively destroy the company.

*Nikola: How to Parlay An Ocean of Lies Into a Partnership With the Largest Auto OEM in America*








						Nikola: How to Parlay An Ocean of Lies Into a Partnership With the Largest Auto OEM in America
					

(NASDAQ:NKLA) Today, we reveal why we believe Nikola is an intricate fraud built on dozens of lies over the course of its Founder and Executive Chairman Trevor Milton’s career.We have gathered exte…




					hindenburgresearch.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 December 2020)

The W.A government to spend $21million installing electric car charging infrastructure, a great idea, they own most of the electrical generation and distribution system in W.A, so it makes sense they install infrastructure to help their business.





__





						Media Statements - New strategy to power electric vehicles in Western Australia
					






					www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au
				



From the article:

_Electric Vehicle Strategy to reduce emissions, drive economic growth and create jobs_
_A key part of the Western Australian Climate Policy, the EV Strategy will support the uptake of electric vehicles in Western Australia_
_Strategy includes creation of Australia's longest electric vehicle charging network_
_McGowan Government investing almost $21 million in an Electric Vehicle Fund _
_The McGowan Government is steering towards a cleaner future with the release of Western Australia's first ever Electric Vehicle Strategy.
The strategy will be accompanied by the almost $21 million Electric Vehicle Fund - including the largest single investment in EV charging infrastructure in Australia by a State or Territory Government.
The strategy is a key element of the Western Australian Climate Policy that commits to delivering a cleaner, more sustainable environment through the increased uptake of low and zero emission vehicles.
The strategy will facilitate the creation of Australia's longest, and one of the world's longest, electric vehicle charging infrastructure networks - from Perth to Kununurra in the North, Esperance in the South and Kalgoorlie in the East.
Western Australians and visitors will be able to access fast charging stations along major travel routes in the regions, town and city centres, and tourism sites.
The strategy will also facilitate EV uptake by developing and updating standards, guidelines, and requirements for planning approval, as well as improving levels of consumer awareness and knowledge_.


----------



## basilio (5 December 2020)

Posted this elsewhere but I thought it useful enough to incorporate here.

Excellent analysis of how how quickly oil is collapsing as a fuel and the rise of electric power through batteries in all transport mediums.



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


----------



## basilio (5 December 2020)

The issue of how to deal with millions of dying LiOn  car batteries has been made often.
A number of start ups are tackling this issue.
Excellent insight into the various problems and how they can be dealt with.
If/when the multi million mile battery becomes the go this may be less of a problem.
(Another Pocket story..)









						The Race To Crack Battery Recycling—Before It’s Too Late
					

Millions of EVs will soon hit the road, but the world isn’t ready for their old batteries. A crop of startups wants to crack this billion-dollar problem.




					www.wired.com


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2020)

Hyundai are certainly picking up the pace with E.V's, also it is good to see them adopting the two way flow with the charging as per Nissan.








						Hyundai unveils long range, high performance, two way charging EV platform
					

Hyundai unveils new "E-GMP" electric vehicle platform that will offer long range driving, high performance specs, and bidirectional charging.




					thedriven.io
				



From the article:

Using the E-GMP platform, which stands for “Electric-Global Modular Platform”, Hyundai and Kia will offer electric vehicles with 500 kilometres driving range that can recharge to 80% in 18 minutes, the company said in a statement on Wednesday.

The platform will also pique the interest of those after high performance specifications, taking advantage of the electric drivetrain’s instant torque to offer acceleration from a standing start to 100km/hr in less than 3.5 seconds, for a top speed of 260km/hr, according to Hyundai.

Notably, Hyundai is embracing bidirectional charging with the platform, joining Nissan and Mitsubishi as the only car makers offering a two way charging experience which can allow homeowners to use energy from their vehicles or feed back to the grid.

This will be enabled via an integrated charging control unit (ICCU) that will allow power to flow from the vehicle at a rate of up to 3.5kW – enough to power an air conditioner of 55-inch TV for up to 24 hours, says Hyundai.

Ultra-fast charging will be optional depending on a 400 volt (for 50-150kW charging) or 800 volt electric architecture (for up to 350kW charging), with the modular platform allowing for customisation and rapid development to conform to particular model requirements.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2020)

U.K to get its first electric only car filling station.




__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## bux2000 (7 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Hyundai are certainly picking up the pace with E.V's,












						Watch: How Hayden Paddon's 'leading the world' with ground-breaking electric rally car
					

Paddon Rally Group's highly-anticipated Kona-based competition car was revealed today...




					www.driven.co.nz
				




All the best

bux


----------



## noirua (11 December 2020)

__





						New electric cars coming in 2022 and beyond | DrivingElectric
					

With electric cars making up an ever-increasing proportion of sales, the industry is working flat out to launch new models – here's what's on the way soon



					www.drivingelectric.com


----------



## over9k (13 December 2020)

Some pretty wild stuff going on with nio traders at the moment


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## qldfrog (13 December 2020)

over9k said:


> Some pretty wild stuff going on with nio traders at the moment




For what it is worth, and nearly 2 y old already, but when in Shenzen, NIO was a wannabee with no market presence, people with money were buying Tesla, the less rich going BYD
If I was to invest in anyone for EV, it would be BYD as I witnessed their reliability, presence and lower price while in China


----------



## sptrawler (13 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> For what it is worth, and nearly 2 y old already, but when in Shenzen, NIO was a wannabee with no market presence, people with money were buying Tesla, the less rich going BYD
> If I was to invest in anyone for EV, it would be BYD as I witnessed their reliability, presence and lower price while in China



Bit of info on BYD, they are to be sold in Australia in 2021.









						BYD electric cars due in Australia early 2021
					

Chinese brand plans to ‘revolutionise EVs in Australia’, selling direct to customers – at prices up to $100K




					www.motoring.com.au


----------



## over9k (13 December 2020)

most of them have had a bit of a melt lately though. 

I got nio at 17, just going to sit & hold.


----------



## qldfrog (13 December 2020)

over9k said:


> most of them have had a bit of a melt lately though.
> 
> I got nio at 17, just going to sit & hold.



If i were you , would sell nio...
You can always buy more Tesla or Nikola etc. 
Was the reason of my post..
And i know actually selling or making profit now or in the future seems irrelevant in today's market, but it might become relevant again one day.especially true for Chinese company where BS is the rule


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2020)

Well the political  battle lines on electric cars seem to taking shape.








						More charging stations? Car-to-home power? Federal Government ponders ways to boost electric car sales
					

A draft strategy to support electric vehicle take-up details no direct financial help for motorists to make the switch, including no changes to import or luxury car taxes to lower the sticker price of vehicles.




					www.abc.net.au
				




*The coalition* don't seem to want to give tax payer subsidies:
From the article:

_There is no direct financial help for motorists to switch to electric cars and no target for new electric car sales.

Instead, the discussion paper includes:_


_$72 million in funding already announced for co-investing in charging infrastructure._
_A two-year trial of an electric car fleet for COMCAR, which provides cars and drivers for politicians._
_Updating the 'Green Vehicle Guide' website._
_Asking energy agencies to look at options for car-to-home and car-to-grid battery use_.

*The opposition* rhetoric seems to imply disincentives for ICE vehicle:
From the article:

_There is also no mention of fuel efficiency standards, which concerns Labor's climate and energy spokesman Mark Butler.

"We are driving the least-efficient fleet of cars and light trucks in the developed world and there's nothing in this strategy to help clean up the fleet," he said.

"Cleaning up the fleet will not only have great benefit for air qualities in our cities but it will also save about $500 off the motorist's bill every year_.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## sptrawler (15 December 2020)

Interesting Rivian are talking about putting in remote charging infrastructure, for the outdoors adventure type buyer, interesting concept vandalism may be an issue IMO.




__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.couriermail.com.au
				



From the article:

So Rivian is extending its network of fast chargers to off-road locations in its home market, according to a recent interview with the company’s chief RJ Scaringe in TechCrunch.

Scaringe said the chargers might be at popular hiking or mountain biking trails, kayaking spots or mountain climbing locations.


Rivian spokesman Chris Wollen has previously confirmed to News Corp Australia it is planning to bring its new electric ute Down Under, possibly as soon as 2022.

“We know that there’s markets that will be into these vehicles and the adventure positioning and Australia fits that perfectly. We know we’re nicely suited for Australia so it’s an important market for us,” he said.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2020)

Volvo (Geely) plans to build its own electric drive trains inhouse.








						Volvo Invests Over $100 Million To Make Electric Motors In-house
					

The car maker hopes to have in-house electric motor production by 2025.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2020)

I heard gasoline was originally an unwanted by-product that was pretty much pumped into rivers. That was until cars that ran on it came along. I'm not even sure if the above is true?

Once EVs take over will their be a glut of gas considering we will still need jet fuel etc?


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> I heard gasoline was originally an unwanted by-product that was pretty much pumped into rivers. That was until cars that ran on it came along. I'm not even sure if the above is true?
> 
> Once EVs take over will their be a glut of gas considering we will still need jet fuel etc?



There will certainly be a glut of refineries, there will be a requirement for diesel for a long time yet IMO, but petrol?
I suppose it will be like everything else, as the demand drops the price rises, a bit like kero. 
Forty years ago everyone had a kero space heater and they were pretty cheap to run, now kero is expensive and thankfully no one uses them, they stank.


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2020)

I think from a barrel of oil it was something like 47% gasoline, 23% diesel, 10% jet fuel and some others.

So air travel possibly to get more expensive or a change?

Otherwise there looks like a glut.
Or we won't see a fast enough transition away from oil for climate targets.
Or we run out of oil.

Something has to give.

More just a question out of interest. Always looking for a chance to make a buck.


----------



## Value Collector (16 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> I think from a barrel of oil it was something like 47% gasoline, 23% diesel, 10% jet fuel and some others.
> 
> So air travel possibly to get more expensive or a change?
> 
> ...




refineries have been getting better at cracking and reforming hydrocarbon molecules into heavier or lighter fuels depending on demand.

Also, The Unused portion of the oil barrel can be used as energy inside the refinery itself, eg burned for heat or electrical generation.


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2020)

Value Collector said:


> refineries have been getting better at cracking and reforming hydrocarbon molecules into heavier or lighter fuels depending on demand.
> 
> Also, The Unused portion of the oil barrel can be used as energy inside the refinery itself, eg burned for heat or electrical generation.



So obviously price of oil would have to go up for it to be viable?


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> I heard gasoline was originally an unwanted by-product that was pretty much pumped into rivers. That was until cars that ran on it came along. I'm not even sure if the above is true?
> 
> Once EVs take over will their be a glut of gas considering we will still need jet fuel etc?



First efforts at refining crude oil involved a simple distillation process and tapping off liquids which boiled at different temperatures. How much petrol, kerosene or anything else was produced was a function of the composition of the crude oil and not of demand.

At first kerosene was the only wanted product, the rest was waste and, since nobody really thought about the environment back then, was a best burned off in the open and at worst dumped in the nearest river.

In due course though the refineries have come up with some pretty clever chemistry and processes to turn one thing into another. It's not quite lead into gold sort of clever but it's really only one step below that. They can and do get far more petrol out of a barrel of oil than the oil naturally contains and they likewise get far less heavy fuel oil than is naturally present.

There's also the issue of specification overlap. Eg there's some overlap between what counts as "petrol" and what counts as "kerosene" and there's overlap between kero and diesel (no overlap between diesel and petrol though). That does not mean they can put some actual kerosene into petrol, but it does mean that some of the hydrocarbon molecules (but not the lot) can go into either stream.

At present, with the lack of demand for jet fuel, it's no secret that the heavier components are ending up in diesel, the lightest components are ending up in petrol, and that leaves a much tighter range in the middle still coming out as jet fuel. Even that's too much however and in short the solution is the surplus is being "dumped" into heavy fuel oil and so on. Gets rid of it and puts it to some use albeit a low value one.

Downstream of refining, the petrochemical industry and some industrial uses do have the ability to switch products as another means of balancing demand. Eg plastics manufacture switching between propane and diesel is one such example. Gas turbine power generators able to run pretty much any mix of diesel, heating oil, jet fuel, lighting kero etc is another and they'll gladly take anything that's cheap since all they need it to do is burn which it does.

At the more extreme end, one thing that surprises many is just how much oil Saudi Arabia _imports. _They export a lot of crude oil certainly, but they also import a lot of heavy residual fuel oil for power generation - so long as the fuel oil's priced lower than the crude from which it came, and that's often the case, then economically it stacks up.

So in short, there's considerable flexibility but in the short term it's not unlimited, it only goes so far.

PS - I won't name them but there's a power station in Australia that's got quite a bit of jet fuel sitting there at the moment. It'll be burned for generation when required. They got it cheap yes and having it sitting there is no problem, it won't deteriorate enough to be a problem given it's only being used in a power station on the ground it's not going to be put into any aircraft. The plant in question is used for peak loads and backup, hence why they haven't burned it already.


----------



## Value Collector (16 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> So obviously price of oil would have to go up for it to be viable?




high oil price is better for people producing barrels off oil.

low oil price is better for the people that refine it.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> First efforts at refining crude oil involved a simple distillation process and tapping off liquids which boiled at different temperatures. How much petrol, kerosene or anything else was produced was a function of the composition of the crude oil and not of demand.
> 
> At first kerosene was the only wanted product, the rest was waste and, since nobody really thought about the environment back then, was a best burned off in the open and at worst dumped in the nearest river.
> 
> ...



I wish I could be bothered with the long winded answer, god knows what we would do without you smurf, your a diamond.
You do know you should give up your job and get into teaching, don't you.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> smurf, your a diamond.



Diamonds are something that will need to still be made from carbon long after we stop burning the stuff to run cars..... 

Some diamonds are natural and mined in that form but the rest are man-made, especially those used industrially.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Diamonds are something that will need to still be made from carbon long after we stop burning the stuff to run cars.....
> 
> Some diamonds are natural and mined as such but the rest are man-made, especially those used industrially.



I wasn't joking about the teaching gig, my oldest son is really great at what he does and earns heaps doing it, but he really wants to back off and become a TAFE lecturer.
I just hope he can, he has so much to offer and the students would benefit a lot, but there are always two factors in an equation.

It reminds me of when I was an apprentice, one teacher knew everything, but couldn't teach for $hit boring as watching grass grow, the other made you interested in learning and didn't have to know everything.

I think that is the whole problem with teaching today, the teacher gets a rubber stamp for finishing a course and the students plus Australia suffer for the rest of their lives.
Just my opinion.


----------



## qldfrog (16 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> I wasn't joking about the teaching gig, my oldest son is really great at what he does and earns heaps doing it, but he really wants to back off and become a TAFE lecturer.
> I just hope he can, he has so much to offer and the students would benefit a lot, but there are always two factors in an equation.
> 
> It reminds me of when I was an apprentice, one teacher knew everything, but couldn't teach for $hit boring as watching grass grow, the other made you interested in learning and didn't have to know everything.
> ...



adding to your rant, I think the problem is more that you do not need to know much to become a teacher if you look at the ranking for course admission, and teaching is the only option left for some of the less gifted..So no surprise;
You do not need to be Einstein for teaching, but you should know some stuff;
I hate teaching as a profession, not the people but the work as I come from that microcosm.The first thing I wanted not to do was teaching;
A profession where loosers mix  with  enlighted people with a passion , and the lot managed like a soviet camp by the worst of the bureaucracy
Good teaching is a (I will say irrational) sacrifice.To be admired..from far..This was my ode to the few good teachers


----------



## qldfrog (16 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> adding to your rant, I think the problem is more that you do not need to know much to become a teacher if you look at the ranking for course admission, and teaching is the only option left for some of the less gifted..So no surprise;
> You do not need to be Einstein for teaching, but you should know some stuff;
> I hate teaching as a profession, not the people but the work as I come from that microcosm.The first thing I wanted not to do was teaching;
> A profession where loosers mix  with  enlighted people with a passion , and the lot managed like a soviet camp by the worst of the bureaucracy
> Good teaching is a (I will say irrational) sacrifice.To be admired..from far..This was my ode to the few good teachers



far from EV.....not to say very irrelevant in that thread....:-(


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> adding to your rant, I think the problem is more that you do not need to know much to become a teacher if you look at the ranking for course admission, and teaching is the only option left for some of the less gifted..So no surprise;
> You do not need to be Einstein for teaching, but you should know some stuff;
> I hate teaching as a profession, not the people but the work as I come from that microcosm.The first thing I wanted not to do was teaching;
> A profession where loosers mix  with  enlighted people with a passion , and the lot managed like a soviet camp by the worst of the bureaucracy
> Good teaching is a (I will say irrational) sacrifice.To be admired..from far..This was my ode to the few good teachers



The problem is frog, teaching thirty years ago wasn't a profession, it was a calling, teachers applied to teachers training colleges not universities.
The first thing teacher training colleges did, was work out if the applicant was suitable.
That is the critical part that has gone missing, when it was moved to a university degree, the degree afforded better wages.
However IMO it lost the integrity and credibility, in the search for higher wages, now it is forever lost in the name of discrimination IMO.
Of course there are still great teachers and always will be, but the filter has been removed, that removed those less suited to the profession.
Also, it isn't a problem only associated to teaching, nursing has suffered the same issues IMO.
They are both professions, that are as much about personalities, as they are about academic ability.
Both are as important, but both don't carry the same weighting, in the selection.
Just my opinion.
Anyway, way off topic, my apologies.
Jeez this is about electric cars FFS, too many reds.


----------



## sptrawler (17 December 2020)

Thanks for the heads up frog, I realised too late.


----------



## JamesBrown89 (17 December 2020)

I love cars, I love internal combustion engines, I don't want them to go away, but the hardcore anti-EV people are just silly. EVs are awesome too. They're just different, and that's fine. EVs are great for short trips, city driving, and occasionally for having fun. ICE vehicles make sweet noises, are fun to drive (and work on), and are pretty much unlimited in the range given how easy it is to find fuel and fill up the tank. But yes, they are worse for the environment. They just are. We have to accept reality.


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## Value Collector (17 December 2020)

JamesBrown89 said:


> I love cars, I love internal combustion engines, I don't want them to go away, but the hardcore anti-EV people are just silly. EVs are awesome too. They're just different, and that's fine. EVs are great for short trips, city driving, and occasionally for having fun. ICE vehicles make sweet noises, are fun to drive (and work on), and are pretty much unlimited in the range given how easy it is to find fuel and fill up the tank. But yes, they are worse for the environment. They just are. We have to accept reality.




some people love horses, horses haven’t gone away, just like some people have horses for fun, you will still be able to have an internal combustion car for fun, but it will be an expensive luxury.

Ev’s with decent range such as Tesla’s are actually much better for road trips than internal combustion engines, as I have explained many times it’s a myth that filling with petrol is more convenient than charging.

Once you actually have an Ev with decent range, you will realise that not having to go to the petrol station every week, and instead just plugging in at home is actually a great luxury.

And on road trips just plugging in and walking away to use the bathroom or grab something to eat is again a luxury, and the charge time is about the same as you would normally spend filling your car, paying,  moving car, then going to the bathroom etc, except it’s better because you just park the ev plug it in, and walk away for 15mins.


----------



## moXJO (17 December 2020)

Value Collector said:


> high oil price is better for people producing barrels off oil.
> 
> low oil price is better for the people that refine it.



I think min viability is around  the $47 mark. Taking out the gas component means a hit to refineries. Surely costs at scale would be forced up by suppliers to stay up and running.


----------



## Value Collector (17 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> I think min viability is around  the $47 mark. Taking out the gas component means a hit to refineries. Surely costs at scale would be forced up by suppliers to stay up and running.




viability for who? The drillers or the refiners?

only the oil drillers care about the oil price, the refiners care about the retail price.

think about it, if you owned an oil refinery and were in the business of buying oil to make and sell petrel and other products you would love it if oil was $1 per barrel or even better free, the price of oil wouldn’t stop you making the products and selling them to the market.


----------



## moXJO (18 December 2020)

Value Collector said:


> viability for who? The drillers or the refiners?
> 
> only the oil drillers care about the oil price, the refiners care about the retail price.
> 
> think about it, if you owned an oil refinery and were in the business of buying oil to make and sell petrel and other products you would love it if oil was $1 per barrel or even better free, the price of oil wouldn’t stop you making the products and selling them to the market.



Drillers. They have a minimum at what they need to sell it at. And that price is a select few. So if refiners no longer needed the quantity that they needed it at now, price would go up for refiners?


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Drillers. They have a minimum at what they need to sell it at. And that price is a select few. So if refiners no longer needed the quantity that they needed it at now, price would go up for refiners?



It's all very variable.

Economics of exploring for oil in the first place come down to multiple factors. Cost of that exploration which is location dependent. Quantity of oil realistically likely to be found and what it would cost to extract it and get it to a customer. Price of oil (revenue from selling it). Government fees, taxes etc. 

Economics of developing a well where the oil is known to exist also highly variable. Cost to get a contractor to drill it (or for major companies, cost of continuing to employ your own crews, maintain your own equipment etc). Cost of roads, pipelines, power and anything else you'll need to build to facilitate it. Government charges and tax. And a really big one - *return on capital*.

What happens with interest rates has a huge influence over the economics of an oil field. Something that's hugely profitably in world of 1% rates could be too expensive for anyone to be even remotely interested in if interest rates were 10%.

That's the bit proponents of "Peak Oil" missed. They correctly identified geology, they're geologists after all so that's not surprising, and they correctly identified that the best oil is used first (pick the lowest hanging fruit) and so on. They also correctly identified that many individual fields and entire countries, including Australia, have indeed seen a peak and decline of their oil production.

What they missed was interest rates. They simply didn't consider that anyone would ever invest in something with the expectation of a 5%, or heaven forbid 1%, return on capital. They were thinking of rates very much higher than that, since that's what was normal at the time, and hence did their calculations on that basis.

Apply 1980's or even 1990's rates of return and lending standards and the US shale oil industry's completely unviable. Not a bit of a loss maker but rather something that's not even remotely close to being a viable business and which no bank would go anywhere near. Drop the rates low enough though and that changes everything.

So the answer to what price oil needs to be in order to be profitable depends on other things basically. That is, is a 1% return per annum considered profitable? Or are we talking about 20% being required? That makes a massive difference.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2020)

moXJO said:


> Drillers. They have a minimum at what they need to sell it at. And that price is a select few. So if refiners no longer needed the quantity that they needed it at now, price would go up for refiners?




Yes of course. But oil doesn’t have to be at a certain minimum price per barrel to make it worthwhile for refiners to crack it into different products.

If new technology suddenly made it possible to drill oil for $1 per barrel and the price per barrel dropped to $10, refiners would love it, they don’t need oil to be at $40 like you said.

refiners just want to make a  profit margin between what the buy the barrel for and what they sell the products at.

whether that’s paying $1 for the barrel and selling the products for $21 or paying $100 for the barrel and selling the products at $120 they don’t care, they make $20 on each barrel they process.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> So the answer to what price oil needs to be in order to be profitable depends on other things basically. That is, is a 1% return per annum considered profitable? Or are we talking about 20% being required? That makes a massive difference.




Yes, but the claim moxjo was making was that it wouldn’t be worth while for refiners to crack and reform the oil into heavy or lighter fuels unless the oil price of over $40.

what I am saying is that the price of oil doesn’t decide a refiners actions, the refining margin does.

Eg, as long as the price they can sell their end products at is higher than the cost of purchasing the oil and processing it, they are happy, in in general that means lower oil price is better, not worse.


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2020)

Jolt to install free EV charging stations, hopefully advertising will cover the cost. Interesting concept.








						Jolt to build free electric car charging network, covered by ads, in Adelaide trial
					

Jolt Charge announces ARENA-backed free roadside EV charging network to trial covering costs with advertising revenue.




					thedriven.io


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> Jolt to install free EV charging stations, hopefully advertising will cover the cost. Interesting concept.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Interesting concept,... although I wonder why they don't just do the advertising without the car charging? maybe the council or shopping centre gives them free use of the location if they provide a charging service.


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## Smurf1976 (18 December 2020)

Value Collector said:


> I wonder why they don't just do the advertising without the car charging?



Someone charging an EV is a captive audience especially if the charger is standalone and not part of a shop etc. Also the presence of the charger ought to attract more attention even to those not using it given that EV chargers are still a fairly uncommon sight.

From an advertising perspective that’s perfect whereas the same advertising would have less value (to advertisers) by itself as just a normal sign etc.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2020)

Value Collector said:


> what I am saying is that the price of oil doesn’t decide a refiners actions, the refining margin does.



Agreed yes - refining's ultimately a separate business. It's related to crude oil obviously but as a business it's a separate thing - quite a few of the refining companies don't own a single drilling rig for example, the oil they refine is purchased from others.


----------



## over9k (18 December 2020)

Interest rates dictate the required P/E. Dump the rates and the P/E soars. Come on guys, this is finance 101 stuff.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 December 2020)

over9k said:


> Interest rates dictate the required P/E. Dump the rates and the P/E soars. Come on guys, this is finance 101 stuff.



I don't see anyone here saying otherwise - it is however something that's overlooked in just about all discussion on the subject. 

Read a dozen oil company reports stating their reserves or read some study into coal versus solar versus gas for power and you'll rarely see an acknowledgement that the results are only valid at a specific interest rate and that a change in rates changes the outcome. Whatever oil reserves a company has at 1% rates will be different at 5% indeed it may well be zero.

It's basic finance maybe, but widely overlooked in practice.


----------



## over9k (18 December 2020)

I've been making quite a point of, well, pointing it out in the economic implications thread.

Halve the interest rate and you double the p/e, drop it by two thirds and you triple it, so on and so forth. It's literally that simple.


But I agree that people all too often forget the fundamentals. It's kind of amazing how often they're overlooked really. Myself included.


----------



## Value Collector (18 December 2020)

over9k said:


> Interest rates dictate the required P/E. Dump the rates and the P/E soars. Come on guys, this is finance 101 stuff.



You are right that is finance 101, interest rates are like gravity to asset values, most people should understand that.

But as smurf points out it has almost nothing to do with what we are talking about.

what we are talking about is more to do with profit margins at the product level, what you are talking about is valuing the entire business at the company level, which is a different thing.


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## qldfrog (18 December 2020)

over9k said:


> I've been making quite a point of, well, pointing it out in the economic implications thread.
> 
> Halve the interest rate and you double the p/e, drop it by two thirds and you triple it, so on and so forth. It's literally that simple.
> 
> ...



Which is the reason Master @ducati916 often look at spy/10y bond or similar.
I am often guilty as well comparing p/e wo this context but unable to forget the sheer raw so high numbers


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## over9k (18 December 2020)

I made this big post in the economic implications thread about oil/oil prices/consequence of the current oil price, it seems relevant:





__





						Economic implications of a SARS/Coronavirus outbreak
					

Longer post, short version is at the bottom if you want the cliff notes version.  Oil news: Brent crude just cracked $50 a barrel.    Reason: China's just started buying up a shitload whilst it's still cheap/the american demand hasn't yet rebounded. In short, it's their last shot to get both...




					www.aussiestockforums.com
				




_"U.S. benchmark oil prices will need to trade in a range of $35 to $45 a barrel next year just to keep production flat, according to a new report by BloombergNEF.

The report highlighted different estimates needed to keep output steady from the major oil plays. For the Permian and Eagle Ford, companies need oil at $35 to $40 a barrel. Meanwhile, the Bakken needs prices in the region of $40 to $45 while Denver-Julesburg probably requires about $45 a barrel.

Up until last week, West Texas Intermediate hadn’t settled above $45 a barrel"_

Read the full report here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/terminal/QKRR80T0G1LF

Bottom line is that the current price makes a lot of previously offline rigs profitable to run again.


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## sptrawler (18 December 2020)

This thread is becoming interesting IMO, because it is starting to focus on the convergence, where E.V vehicles become viable and petrol/diesel doesn't.
That will be when Governments have to start and really subsidies ICE machinery and in that fuel refining, maybe the Governments eventually will have to buy them out.


----------



## over9k (19 December 2020)

Obviously particularly relevant for electric cars.


----------



## over9k (19 December 2020)

As Tesla joins the S&P 500, here are the key levels on the stock investors should watch
					

Ahead of Tesla joining the S&P 500, one technical strategist looked at the key stock levels to watch.




					www.cnbc.com
				




_"Tesla is joining the S&P 500, and with the stock currently trading at all-time highs, Miller Tabak’s chief market strategist Matt Maley broke down the key technical levels for investors to watch going forward.

Ultimately, Maley believes that while there might be some short-term selling around the stock’s addition to the S&P 500, there’s still upside ahead for Tesla. Caution is warranted, however, given the stock’s run to new highs.

Looking at the stock’s weekly RSI chart, Maley noted that the reading is now in the highs 70s which, while signaling overbought conditions, is still below prior readings. In August and February the reading rose to 85 and 93, respectively, each time before the stock experienced a significant decline. Maley added that each of these instances coincided with a broader market sell-off.

RSI, or relative strength index, measures price changes in stocks or an index, and is used as a momentum indicator to help determine an overall trend.

“There is no question that the stock could rally further from current levels,” he said in a morning note.

However, should the broader market experience a sell-off, which is becoming more likely after the S&P 500′s record rally from its March low, Maley said Tesla will be vulnerable to downward pressure.

The key support level that Maley is watching for Tesla is $600, which is the low from last week. “So if TSLA breaks below that level, it will turn a few heads...especially with individual investors,” he said.

Should Tesla hit $600 — around 11% below where the stock traded on Thursday — the next line in the sand is $568. That’s the stock’s lowest close this month, from Dec. 2. It’s also a 38.2% Fibonacci retracement of the rally from mid-November.

“A drop below $568 will raise a yellow warning flag in our minds,” Maley said.

These two key numbers aren’t support levels for Tesla, meaning if they’re breached it won’t necessarily signal a major top for the stock. But it will signal a meaningful pullback that could potentially stretch into a 10% correction, Maley said.

Longer term, the stock’s key support level is $500, which is also right around its 50-day moving average. Even if Tesla pulls back around its addition to the S&P 500, Maley doesn’t see the stock dipping to $500 absent broader-market selling.

But given Tesla’s more than 200% gain in the last six months, Maley said investors should “remain very, very nimble.”

“It has already reached our $650 target, and although we still believe it could reach $700, this is a good level for investors (and especially traders) to take some chips off the table given the massive run the stock has seen,” he said.

Shares of Tesla were roughly 2% higher as of 1 p.m. ET on Friday"._


Tesla has run nearly 70% in five weeks.




And here's how it and the other electric car manufacturers' market caps have stacked up against the legacy internal combustion companies over the past year:




And here's how electric vehicle sales have grown compared to internal combustion vehicle sales lately:




I wonder how long it'll be before vanguard or whomever puts an electric vehicle ETF together.


----------



## joeno (19 December 2020)

Value Collector said:


> You are right that is finance 101, interest rates are like gravity to asset values, most people should understand that.
> 
> But as smurf points out it has almost nothing to do with what we are talking about.
> 
> what we are talking about is more to do with profit margins at the product level, what you are talking about is valuing the entire business at the company level, which is a different thing.




What about Japan though? They had negative interests/0 interests before the rest of the world did. Did nothing to help their imploding housing market and stock market.


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## Smurf1976 (19 December 2020)

joeno said:


> What about Japan though? They had negative interests/0 interests before the rest of the world did. Did nothing to help their imploding housing market and stock market.



The issue was about the economics of natural resources and how that relates to alternatives both in terms of different sources of the same resource and different technologies (electric car versus petrol car).

If Japan had a lot of oil fields then low interest rates would have made many of the previously unviable fields viable. 

That it didn’t happen being because Japan doesn’t have any substantial known oil so economics don’t really come into it there.


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2020)

joeno said:


> What about Japan though? They had negative interests/0 interests before the rest of the world did. Did nothing to help their imploding housing market and stock market.




if something is super overvalued to begin, no interest rate cut can stop the bubble bursting.

Also, Japanese companies have very low returns on equity, so even 0% interest rates are not going to make the asset value of something rise much if the asset was only earning 2% to begin with.

but, let’s say interest rates are10% and a shares in XYZ company are earning 10% return on equity, you probably wouldn’t want to pay face value for that companies equity because you can get a risk free return of 10% in guaranteed bank interest, so you would want to buy the companies equity only at a price which earned you more than 10%, however if bank interest rates were 5% you might happily purchase shares at the face value of their equity and earn 10%, if bank interest was 2% that company equity earning 10% is probably worth more than face value to you.


----------



## over9k (20 December 2020)

Here value collector is literally describing how risk is priced lol.

We're still in our finance 101 class 


Oil's not going away any time soon. It's used for far more than fuelling cars, and shale tech is evolving at a ridiculous rate. I made this thread in the economic implications thread talking about how the next shock will be saudi's & iranians shooting at each other:





__





						Economic implications of a SARS/Coronavirus outbreak
					

Longer post, short version is at the bottom if you want the cliff notes version.  Oil news: Brent crude just cracked $50 a barrel.    Reason: China's just started buying up a shitload whilst it's still cheap/the american demand hasn't yet rebounded. In short, it's their last shot to get both...




					www.aussiestockforums.com
				




The next big thing effecting oil will be geopolitics, not economics. Shale wells in the united states all of a sudden look extremely attractive when the iranians have just bombed 3/4 of saudi arabia's production facilities. No competition to worry about then, is there?


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 December 2020)

over9k said:


> Shale wells in the united states all of a sudden look extremely attractive when the iranians have just bombed 3/4 of saudi arabia's production facilities. No competition to worry about then, is there?



Electric cars also look extremely attractive in that scenario.

The economics of a petrol car versus an electric one become somewhat irrelevant if the petrol car can't actually be driven anywhere due to a lack of petrol.

As many found out in the 1970's, economics only works up to a point during times of scarcity. Beyond that, physical shortages emerge - that's one problem that an EV definitely gets around (well, except for those living in remote places where the power's generated using diesel, but they're not the people likely to buy an EV anytime soon).


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## over9k (20 December 2020)

Oh absolutely. I was just trying to point out that the saudi-iranian war that's soon to break out is going to be a huge boon for all the _other _oil producers. So if you buy electric car makers and american oil companies, you're set.

Conversely, you want to avoid _internal combustion _car manufacturers as they face pressure from both electric cars _and _lack of oil supply.


Having said all this, america is actually oil independent now, hence why they don't care about the saudi supply being taken offline. It's only a physical supply problem for everyone else - who will have no choice but to buy our oil off the yanks for pretty seriously inflated prices.


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## over9k (23 December 2020)

Nice way of saying there's a lot of out-of-touch dinosaurs out there isn't it?


----------



## over9k (23 December 2020)




----------



## Value Collector (23 December 2020)

over9k said:


>




That guy is completely wrong, Tesla isn’t doomed any more than Apple was when Samsung brought out their imitation phones.

The vehicle market is huge, there is plenty of space for other EV makers to thrive without out impacting Tesla at all.

If anyone is doomed it’s car companies that aren’t making a proper attempt to enter the EV market or are just making a small number of compliance cars.


----------



## over9k (23 December 2020)

I tend to agree simply for political reasons - EV's & renewable energy et al are VERY popular at the moment.

Check out TAN both over the year and since biden won the election:




It was at $40 pre march crash, dropped to $23, and has been on an absolute tear ever since. I bought & sold and bought & sold a bit of it months ago and am back in again wishing I'd just bought & held the whole time. 

There's no question that governments around the world will be throwing all kinds of money at all this green energy etc etc stuff over the next few years - the reasons why don't matter, all we need to worry about is whether it'll happen or not, and it undoubtedly will.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 December 2020)

Value Collector said:


> If anyone is doomed it’s car companies that aren’t making a proper attempt to enter the EV market or are just making a small number of compliance cars.



Agreed. 

Does anyone seriously expect that you'll be able to buy any new ICE car at all 20 years from now? 

The writing's on the wall very clearly, any question being one of detail.


----------



## over9k (23 December 2020)

To be fair, the video was about tesla specifically, not EV's as a whole.


----------



## Value Collector (23 December 2020)

over9k said:


> To be fair, the video was about tesla specifically, not EV's as a whole.



But if we agree there is going to be a trend towards ever more EV’s, it’s not the company that is the leader of the EV market that is in danger of being doomed.

I have watched a few of that guys videos, he has a business (that he advertised at the start of that video) where he makes money by finding the dealership that will give you the biggest discount on your new car you want.

which means, ofcourse he is going to be against Tesla because they don’t sell cars that way, you can’t talk a deal with Tesla, because they don’t operate using individually owned dealerships that will compete against each other, so his little business can’t help you buy a Tesla.

however, he can continue making his commissions if you avoid Tesla and instead buy some other EV from a company that uses traditional dealership networks.

so don’t expect fair review from that guy unless it’s on a car that he can help you buy and earn his commission.


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## qldfrog (23 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Does anyone seriously expect that you'll be able to buy any new ICE car at all 20 years from now?
> 
> The writing's on the wall very clearly, any question being one of detail.



I actually believe you will be but not in the west, 5 billions or more in india, asia , africa will buy ices at half the price the western citizen mandated evs.but they will be developing so that is ok.
In australia, i actually wonder cause it will not take much of a shock for us to slide back into the other not so lucky side, especially if coal and gas prices are crushed/export forbidden


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## over9k (24 December 2020)

Electric trucks are a long, long, LONG way off. This is a total fool's errand.


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## qldfrog (24 December 2020)

over9k said:


> View attachment 116964
> 
> 
> Nice way of saying there's a lot of out-of-touch dinosaurs out there isn't it?



or a nice way to realize there are a lot of suckers in this  world but we all agree:
 follow/lead the lemmings, jump aside before the cliff


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## Value Collector (25 December 2020)

So, it looks like apple might be in the electric car business in 3-4 years.

If this is true, I can't wait to find out more about what sort of vehicles they will be producing, eg will they be high end vehicles or more mass market, very exciting, it also opens up yet another area Apple will have to sell services as well as hardware.


----------



## over9k (25 December 2020)

I can see them integrating all their i-stuff with it and every single wealthy girl's father just _having _to buy one for her.


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## Value Collector (25 December 2020)

Elon Musk knew 4.5 years ago that Apple was planning an electric car, and could tell from their hiring patterns that they were planning more direct competition than google.


----------



## qldfrog (25 December 2020)

over9k said:


> View attachment 117021
> 
> 
> Electric trucks are a long, long, LONG way off. This is a total fool's errand.



I would disagree for garbage trucks: perfect target low noice..think city night early morning traffic, start stop on regen brakes,etc


----------



## over9k (25 December 2020)

Value Collector said:


> Elon Musk knew 4.5 years ago that Apple was planning an electric car, and could tell from their hiring patterns that they were planning more direct competition than google.




I can never get over the people who keep claiming this guy is an idiot. Like bill gates, he's successful because he has both the technical know-how _and _a business head. There's a lot of people out there with one or the other, but to find someone with both is extremely rare.


----------



## qldfrog (25 December 2020)

over9k said:


> I can never get over the people who keep claiming this guy is an idiot. Like bill gates, he's successful because he has both the technical know-how _and _a business head. There's a lot of people out there with one or the other, but to find someone with both is extremely rare.



Reading his biography is interesting.i always laugh at people stating that such and such billionaire is an idiot: be it Trump or Musk, Bezos or Gate etc..and then go back to their shitty $60k or $150k jobs,most of these fake jobs,  with a middle management boss and a HR policy...


----------



## over9k (25 December 2020)

Oh frog. Don't you know that the only reason anyone ever gets well off is privilege/unfairness/etc? Intellect, work ethic, decision making, sensibility with money etc etc have nothing to do with it.


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## sptrawler (25 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I would disagree for garbage trucks: perfect target low noice..think city night early morning traffic, start stop on regen brakes,etc



The other thing is, garbage especially recycling is very light by volume, so EV garbage trucks probably make a lot of sense. I have a mate who is a garbo, I will run it past him and see what he reckons.


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## sptrawler (25 December 2020)

over9k said:


> Oh frog. Don't you know that the only reason anyone ever gets well off is privilege/unfairness/etc? Intellect, work ethic, decision making, sensibility with money etc etc have nothing to do with it.



You are spot on @over9k , the plebs think becoming well off is all about luck, then they head off to the pokies to find some.😂


----------



## Value Collector (25 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The other thing is, garbage especially recycling is very light by volume, so EV garbage trucks probably make a lot of sense. I have a mate who is a garbo, I will run it past him and see what he reckons.



And with most landfills having landfill gas electric generation, you could say the garbage trucks are fueled by garbage, hahaha


----------



## basilio (25 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> The other thing is, garbage especially recycling is very light by volume, so EV garbage trucks probably make a lot of sense. I have a mate who is a garbo, I will run it past him and see what he reckons.




EV garbage trucks are an exceptionally clear candidate for EV power
1) *Very quiet. *Big point when running around in the early hours.
*2) Garbage pick up  is a stop and start operation. *Challenging on ICE technology. Excellent on batteries
*3) Short overall trips*. Don't need a huge battery for long trips. Can be recharged at base quickly

Honestly I'm surprised we havn't seen it happen already. I think the figures would make this an open and shut case. But it is coming.









						Electric Garbage Trucks Are Finally Coming in 2021 With the Battery-Powered Mack LR
					

It might not seem like a huge deal, but this is a significant leap for cities and sanitation fleets alike.




					www.thedrive.com
				












						Australia's first fully electric rubbish trucks clean up in Casey
					

The first 100% electric rubbish trucks in Australia hit the streets in Melbourne's outer city council of Casey.




					thedriven.io


----------



## over9k (25 December 2020)

sptrawler said:


> You are spot on @over9k , the plebs think becoming well off is all about luck, then they head off to the pokies to find some.😂



Nah nah trawler it's _privilege. _


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 December 2020)

qldfrog said:


> I would disagree for garbage trucks: perfect target low noice..think city night early morning traffic, start stop on regen brakes,etc



Garbage collection in urban areas is the most extreme example around of a large vehicle making very short trips. The average distance from start to stop is less than a minute's walk after all, the vehicle doesn't even get up to speed before the brakes are applied once again. Also there's a lot of time with the engine idling, doing minimal work driving only the hydraulics, whilst the bin is emptied into the truck.

Add in considerations of noise and that emissions are directly into densely populated urban areas and it's an absolutely perfect application of electric drive and regenerative braking plus a small diesel-driven generator running at constant load if needed to extend range.

Urban public transport buses are less extreme version of the same thing. They also do short distances between stops, operate in densely populated areas and spend considerable time with the engine idling. Not as extreme as a garbage truck but still the same basic pattern of use.

Both also have the common aspect of being parked for considerable periods each day at a depot.  They aren't on the road 24/7 and they don't have a sudden unforeseen need to go somewhere in a hurry, their operation is entirely predictable and known in advance.

Buses and garbage trucks also have the aspect that their physical form does provide some gaps and spaces into which batteries or other equipment can be placed. Unlike a car or motorcycle where space is extremely limited.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 December 2020)

basilio said:


> EV garbage trucks are an exceptionally clear candidate for EV power
> 1) *Very quiet. *Big point when running around in the early hours.
> *2) Garbage pick up  is a stop and start operation. *Challenging on ICE technology. Excellent on batteries
> *3) Short overall trips*. Don't need a huge battery for long trips. Can be recharged at base quickly
> ...




You could say the same for the Commonwealth , State and local government car fleets. Ferrying politicians from Parliament House to the airport and back is an ideal application for EV's. Why do they insist on inefficient petrol BMW's when a Tesla or Nissan Leaf would be much more efficient ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> You could say the same for the Commonwealth , State and local government car fleets.



There was a case for governments to "buy local" when Holden etc were manufacturing in Australia but with that gone, buying something that sends the right message about emissions etc seems like a better idea than sticking to imported petrol cars.


----------



## basilio (25 December 2020)

SirRumpole said:


> You could say the same for the Commonwealth , State and local government car fleets. Ferrying politicians from Parliament House to the airport and back is an ideal application for EV's. Why do they insist on inefficient petrol BMW's when a Tesla or Nissan Leaf would be much more efficient ?




I agree.  It does make sense in many ways and is well worth pursuing.  But as Smurf pointed out the Garbage trucks and local buses are even more obvious cases for a change.

In the same vein check out the case for converting Toyota Land cruisers/HiLuxes into all electric vehicles for working in mines.





__





						Tembo e-LV, the New Standard in mining mobility based on Toyota Land Cruiser & Hilux
					

The Electric Cruiser & Electric HLX for the future in underground mining mobility based on the Toyota Land Cruiser 70 series and Toyota Hilux




					www.tembo4x4-elv.com
				












						GB Auto signs $330 million deal to distribute Tembo all-electric ute kits in Australia
					

GB Auto secures deal to become exclusive Australian distributor of Tembo electric ute conversion kits, targeting A$330 million in sales by 2025.




					thedriven.io


----------



## Value Collector (27 December 2020)

sval62 said:


> Electric cars will still have the same running gear as petrol powered vehicles i.e
> gearbox,crankshaft,pistons and diffs etc so basically the mechanicals would be the same.





Nope, they don’t have any of those things.


----------



## qldfrog (27 December 2020)

Smurf1976 said:


> There was a case for governments to "buy local" when Holden etc were manufacturing in Australia but with that gone, buying something that sends the right message about emissions etc seems like a better idea than sticking to imported petrol cars.



@Smurf1976 il would not take you long to prove that CO2 emissions of their Tesla is higher than their beemer while in Australia
.the extra cost ..(as i doubt that they would buy Nissan leaf or MGs) would bring a backlash..deserved in my opinion


----------



## over9k (1 January 2021)




----------



## sptrawler (4 January 2021)

VW to develop charging robots, interesting concept.








						Volkswagen's mobile EV charging robot unveiled
					

Will this speed up the adoption of electric cars?




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
_With many people lacking access to charging stations at home or the office – and limited charging spots available in car parks – VW believes its mobile charging robot is what the EV market needs to quickly expand charging infrastructure and drive wider consumer uptake of electric vehicles. 

Focusing on restricted parking areas such as underground car parks and apartment blocks, VW’s mobile robot will be able to charge multiple vehicles at once, all without the need for specific charging spaces or drivers plugging in the car themselves.

Starting via an app or through the vehicle’s onboard Car-to-X functionality, the robot will autonomously navigate to the car to communicate with and charge it, including opening the charging flap, connecting the plug and uncoupling it when complete_.

_Capable of charging multiple EVs simultaneously, the robot moves a mobile energy storage unit to each vehicle, automatically connects it and leaves the battery pack with the car. Meanwhile, it will steer other mobile units around to other EVs needing a top up. Once charging is finished, the robot collects each unit and returns it to the central charging station.

Volkswagen claims the system will remove the need for dedicated charging spots and allow car park owners and operators to ‘electrify’ every parking space without the need for extensive construction._

I wonder if it will have hoon avoidance mode, so it can get away, when being chased by a hoon driving a V8. 😂


----------



## qldfrog (4 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> VW to develop charging robots, interesting concept.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So remind me:
Grid to robot battery
16% energy loss
,robot burning energy to go from car to car

then

Robot battery to car battery
Another 16%

And car battery to motor
,And another 16% conservatively before powering the motor
You are nearing ICE waste now, just been charged more pun intended


----------



## over9k (5 January 2021)

I know electric stuff gets all kinds of subsidies but at the same time, I also like to think that electrical engineers know what they're doing frog.

I long ago thought it all hinged on battery tech and my opinion hasn't changed. So with that being said, battery tech's going to get endless funding (both public and private) _until _we figure it out. Like money for nasa to land a guy on the moon, money is just going to keep pouring in until it's done.







I hold all four, no intentions of selling any. You can guarantee that the first biden budget has a massive renewable-this, green-that etc etc provision in it. 

Even china, india etc want electric cars just as a smog/air quality thing. There's massive tax subsidies and so forth even over there. This stuff is _not _going away no matter what any of our opinions on it are. 

Just ride the wave.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 January 2021)

over9k said:


> I long ago thought it all hinged on battery tech and my opinion hasn't changed.



Ultimately what it all comes down to is making batteries that are physically smaller and lighter per unit of capacity than at present. 

That's it really.

Electric cars as such work.

Batteries work.

Problem is that a battery able to store enough energy to move the car a long distance is heavier and physically larger than is desirable and it's also rather expensive. Those are the bits where improvement is desirable.

It's much the same as other technology. Lots of things were able to be done years or even decades before they became common, the limiting factor to widespread use was finding a way to make the equipment small and cheap enough to be practical. Pretty much all modern technology went through that before it saw mass adoption.


----------



## qldfrog (5 January 2021)

over9k said:


> I know electric stuff gets all kinds of subsidies but at the same time, I also like to think that electrical engineers know what they're doing frog.



They do, and as an engineer and it geek, the ai, tech for the robots are amazing.it is just that i am fed up of the narrative EV are green good for the environment etc etc 
As they are most EVs are as polluting as ICE, just not in the location.Which can be a plus aka smog etc
But please let's stop this charade about caring for the planet and buying an EV.
It is a general problem, since people started branding diesel as bad vs petrol in the name of environment, any half decent engineer knows the efficiency are by far favoring diesel.
So be it ev, diesel vs petrol, co2 effect in CC or more lately covid numbers, i am just fed up of narratives winning over truth every time, and a dumb population swallowing it all.journalists are no where to be seen and any real scientist has to sjut up or loose his/her professional future.only old farts like me can speak up as they do not need a new contract but ehh we are old farts so can not know
In that case,these charging robots are great but do increase by 2 the losses due to battery charge discharge and in term of CC might end up comparable to ice useage.
It is a solution but not to CC.


----------



## rederob (5 January 2021)

As @qldfrog has me blocked, I will nevertheless comment on his claims which time and again have been scientifically debunked:

*"As they are most EVs are as polluting as ICE, just not in the location. Which can be a plus aka smog etc*​*But please let's stop this charade about caring for the planet and buying an EV."*​
First, if the electrical power source is mostly fossil fuel, then BEVs only advantage is to the driver's locality via cleaner air.  Nevertheless, health system advantages of cleaner air in cities can be seen in literally thousands of scientific papers, so it's unwise to discount this clear benefit.
Second, as the renewables mix increases, the CO2 footprint begins to significantly favour BEVs over ICEs.
Third, much of the data sets a limit of "x" km for their respective vehicle comparisons. However, batteries are already being repurposed after they have ben removed from BEVs, so the CO2 footprint of battery manufacture should be factored in via "life cycle" comparisons, but never is.
Last, FCEVs may well be the long term winner despite BEV's current advantage, so there is not a lot of sense in continuing to back fossil fuel based  losers.

*"So be it ev, diesel vs petrol, co2 effect in CC or more lately covid numbers, i am just fed up of narratives winning over truth every time, and a dumb population swallowing it all.journalists are no where to be seen and any real scientist has to sjut up or loose his/her professional future.only old farts like me can speak up as they do not need a new contract but ehh we are old farts so can not know"*​
Science has been winning in all the cases @qldfrog mentions.  For posters to be credible, they need to show what information they are relying on.  I have in the past provided dozens of links on these matters.  The thing is, since then the case for EVs in general has only improved. Battery production is not just getting cheaper, but energy output is also improving.

*"In that case,these charging robots are great but do increase by 2 the losses due to battery charge discharge and in term of CC might end up comparable to ice useage.*​*It is a solution but not to CC. "*​
Grateful for a translation into a meaningful sense.


----------



## moXJO (5 January 2021)

I'm not seeing battery tech getting much cheaper at the moment on domestic stuff. We haven't seen anything new in battery tech for about a decade thats made it to mass market. 

Generally you see it on battery tools first where it gets put through the paces. I think dewalt was the last with the 54v that could switch to 18v. Same batteries though. Its still just a bunch of aa batteries lumped together.


----------



## rederob (5 January 2021)

moXJO said:


> I'm not seeing battery tech getting much cheaper at the moment on domestic stuff. We haven't seen anything new in battery tech for about a decade thats made it to mass market.
> 
> Generally you see it on battery tools first where it gets put through the paces. I think dewalt was the last with the 54v that could switch to 18v. Same batteries though. Its still just a bunch of aa batteries lumped together.



Not sure what your reference base is, but there is this to prove a point:



Battery megafactories (or as Tesla calls them, "gigafactories") are getting more price competitive as not only more are being built - mostly in China - but as  more productivity improvements are being made to them, aside from improvements in battery technology itself.


----------



## moXJO (5 January 2021)

rederob said:


> Not sure what your reference base is, but there is this to prove a point:
> View attachment 117772
> 
> 
> Battery megafactories (or as Tesla calls them, "gigafactories") are getting more price competitive as not only more are being built - mostly in China - but as  more productivity improvements are being made to them, aside from improvements in battery technology itself.



Is it translating to the domestic market because I'm not seeing a lot of change. It wasn't a statement of fact. More that I haven't seen much development on the consumer side. In fact I've had more battery problems then I've had previously.

You're the man to go to when I want green tech hope.
 or an argument...


----------



## over9k (5 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Ultimately what it all comes down to is making batteries that are physically smaller and lighter per unit of capacity than at present.
> 
> That's it really.
> 
> ...



Yeah bentley are doing an electric car now and that thing had huuuuuuge range. 

But being a bentley it can have a $400,000 battery in it and still be commercially viable. That's not so for mass consumption. 


The tech exists, it just isn't cheap enough.


Yet.


----------



## Value Collector (5 January 2021)

rederob said:


> As @qldfrog has me blocked, I will nevertheless comment on his claims which time and again have been scientifically debunked:
> 
> ​



​
welcome to the club, he has me blocked to.


----------



## Value Collector (5 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Yeah bentley are doing an electric car now and that thing had huuuuuuge range.
> 
> But being a bentley it can have a $400,000 battery in it and still be commercially viable. That's not so for mass consumption.
> 
> ...




i think it just comes down to right sizing the battery, some people feel that they can’t get an ev until 1000km range batteries exist, but that’s almost non sensical in reality, you just don’t need that size battery, no one really drivers that far in one day without stopping for a pee.


----------



## over9k (5 January 2021)

No but you can't go on day/weekend trips with the family unless you have that kind of range, and people do them all the time. Currently, owning an electric car means I can't take the wife & kids away for the weekend, and that's a pretty serious lack of practicality. Prohibitively so in fact. 

Once they reach that point, I suspect sales will, er, surge. I'll probably buy one myself.


----------



## Value Collector (5 January 2021)

over9k said:


> No but you can't go on day/weekend trips with the family unless you have that kind of range, and people do them all the time. Currently, owning an electric car means I can't take the wife & kids away for the weekend, and that's a pretty serious lack of practicality. Prohibitively so in fact.
> 
> Once they reach that point, I suspect sales will, er, surge. I'll probably buy one myself.



Where are you going that doesn’t have electricity? If you had 500 km range, you would easily be able to do a weekend away, because over the space of that initial 500km you would probably be passing charging locations, or you could charge at your destination, I am not sure you can drive 500 km in any direction without passing a charging location.

I take the model 3 away for trips all the time, I have also driven between Sydney and Brisbane plenty of times.

you Would be surprised I bet an ev would easily fit into your life.


----------



## sptrawler (5 January 2021)

Battery prices have dropped as scale has increased, energy densities have improved but are still a fair way off acceptable, but BEV's are going to happen whether people want it or not IMO. It will happen for a variety of reasons mostly economic, the minor one being clean air, also just my opinion.
Here is a bit of info on the lithium battery.








						Is Lithium-ion the Ideal Battery?
					

Learn about the lithium-ion battery; its advantages: high energy density and low maintenance, its limitations and transportation restrictions.




					batteryuniversity.com


----------



## over9k (5 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Where are you going that doesn’t have electricity? If you had 500 km range, you would easily be able to do a weekend away, because over the space of that initial 500km you would probably be passing charging locations, or you could charge at your destination, I am not sure you can drive 500 km in any direction without passing a charging location.
> 
> I take the model 3 away for trips all the time, I have also driven between Sydney and Brisbane plenty of times.
> 
> you Would be surprised I bet an ev would easily fit into your life.



Maybe. But having to plan the trips by charging stations is... inconvenient. I want to be able to just get in the car and go anywhere/do anything/change plans any time we want without a 2nd thought and there just isn't the flexibility/peace of mind/surety of petroleum cars. Not yet. 

I reckon we're 2-3 years away from it, just going by gut feeling.


----------



## Value Collector (5 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Maybe. But having to plan the trips by charging stations is... inconvenient. I want to be able to just get in the car and go anywhere/do anything/change plans any time we want without a 2nd thought and there just isn't the flexibility/peace of mind/surety of petroleum cars. Not yet.
> 
> I reckon we're 2-3 years away from it, just going by gut feeling.




I think you would end up finding the inconvenience very small and rare, but the benefits large and frequent.

Most of the time the car will find its own charging locations, and if you really want to get into the weeds 2 mins on your smart phone will find chargers on your route or at your destination.


----------



## over9k (5 January 2021)

Maybe. But I'm not going to spend the kind of money a new model Y is on a maybe or even a "probably", I want to be absolutely _sure _of no problems first. 

If there was something wrong with my current ICE car now I'd probably very seriously think about the switch but whilst my current car is perfectly fine for purpose, it's a bit of a non-starter.


----------



## over9k (5 January 2021)

Chinese electric car company Nio doubles deliveries in 2020 as local competition ramps up for Tesla
					

Chinese electric car start-ups Nio, Li Auto and Xpeng each announced that deliveries surged in 2020 to close out the year with new monthly highs.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Value Collector (5 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Maybe. But I'm not going to spend the kind of money a new model Y is on a maybe or even a "probably", I want to be absolutely _sure _of no problems first.
> 
> If there was something wrong with my current ICE car now I'd probably very seriously think about the switch but whilst my current car is perfectly fine for purpose, it's a bit of a non-starter.



You could down load the plug share app and check out the routes you are likely to travel.

or play with the “better route planner” website or app etc just to get an idea.

for example about a month ago my family planned a road trip involving 3 different groups out to a small country town, turned there was a free Tesla charger right in the down, and we passed a supercharger on the way there also.

30 seconds on the plug share app and I had all the details I needed, it’s no biggy.

so I don’t think you need 1000km of range, you just need to feel confident on where charging locations are.


----------



## over9k (6 January 2021)

I might hit you up for some tips in a couple of years


----------



## over9k (8 January 2021)

Elon musk is now the world's richest person.









						Elon Musk has a new title: world's richest person
					

Elon Musk,  the controversial and enigmatic entrepreneur who heads up SpaceX and Tesla,  has reached a status that only three others have held in the past two decades: world's richest person.  On his way to the top spot, Musk has surpassed a bevy of billionaires this year, including Warren...




					finance.yahoo.com


----------



## over9k (8 January 2021)




----------



## Smurf1976 (9 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Elon musk is now the world's richest person.



I think this is perhaps a good thing in itself.

It may knock some sense into some if they're confronted with the reality that capitalism and innovation are joined at the hip and if you want solutions to problems then you want people getting rich out of it, that tends to be a pretty good motivator.

Regardless of whether he ultimately succeeds in the long term or not, Musk has done more to popularise EV's than every environmental group, government and car manufacturer put together. He did what others failed to do - he completely shed the "eco car" image that has kept most away from EV's in the past and instead produced a car that was desirable as such.


----------



## over9k (9 January 2021)

Don't be so sure about that:


----------



## over9k (9 January 2021)

NIO now closing on on $60/share.




Well past three bags & on its way to a fourth for me now


----------



## over9k (9 January 2021)

Truly meteoric.







But if you thought that was good, well...


----------



## basilio (9 January 2021)

Significant announcement in December from Alkaline Fuel Energy ( AFC UK) on joint production with ABB of a mobile hydrogen fuel cell based electric charging unit.  The process will allow widespread charging of electric vehicles off the grid using pollution free hydrogen.

AFC share price has jumped 350% since the announcement.





__





						AFC Energy and ABB Partner to Power-Up the Future of Clean EV Charging
					

AFC Energy is the leading provider of Fuel Cell technology for a generation of clean energy, offering best in class performance and lowest operating cost as part of global efforts to decarbonise industry.



					www.afcenergy.com


----------



## over9k (9 January 2021)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-to-unveil-new-sedan-as-valuation-eclipses-gm 

Nio unveils its first sedan today. Its stock ran about 9% last night so expectations are high.


----------



## Value Collector (9 January 2021)

over9k said:


> View attachment 118036
> 
> 
> View attachment 118034
> ...



Tesla closed at $880, and I thought I was probably paying to much when I bought mine 3 months ago at $425.

I did some calculations this morning, to justify this valuation they have to be producing about 4 Million cars a year, last year they produced 500,000.

In their favour though they have two factories under construction, and a third one ramping up that could eventually bring production to 4.5 million and the 500,000 was in a pandemic.

not to mention selling a Tesla semi will probably be equal to selling 4 or 5 standard cars used in my calculation and my calculation completely ignored the other businesses such as stationary power storage, solar and other blue sky businesses such as robo taxi, software and in car purchases.


----------



## over9k (9 January 2021)

Let's not forget 0% interest rates putting a rocket under _everything _and so amplifying whatever gains would have otherwise occurred too.


----------



## over9k (10 January 2021)

over9k said:


> View attachment 116702
> 
> 
> Obviously particularly relevant for electric cars.




And it begins:






I've held SOXL ever since early september after the tech wreck, no intention of selling:


----------



## over9k (11 January 2021)




----------



## over9k (11 January 2021)

Cross-post:








__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2021)

Nio releases its Tesla competitor, the ET7. 
It should be interesting to see if Tesla or Nio changes their charging model, or they manage to co exist, very similar situation to the old 8 track and 4 track cassette argument.








						Tesla rival Nio ups competition with new electric sedan
					

The New York-listed shares of the ET7's manufacturer finished the year up 1112 per cent and the company has begun reporting gross positive margins.




					www.afr.com


----------



## Value Collector (11 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It should be interesting to see if Tesla or Nio changes their charging model, or they manage to co exist, very similar situation to the old 8 track and 4 track cassette argument.




If I had to guess, I would say Nio will drop the battery change concept, or limit it to a very small number of locations, the battery change model offers almost no practical advantages in real world life, but is alot more expensive to setup along with other draw backs.

Tesla already played with the battery change idea, Nio probably originally got the Idea from Tesla, but Tesla abandoned it.

I know driving up and swapping the battery seems like it would be super convenient, but in reality you would be far better off having the company install regular fast chargers, think about it...

1, When was they last time you used a full tank of fuel in one day, where stopping and supercharging for 15 minutes at some point that day would have been inconvenient?  probably never, provided there is super chargers along your route.

2, If you did have an electric car, would you find it more convenient have the company install multiple fast chargers around the city in locations convenient to you, or max out its capital on one super impressive battery change facility on the wrong side of town?

Here is a video of Tesla doing a battery swap 8 years ago, as I said they have been there and done that, realised its not necessary, most people will never use chargers outside their home unless on a road trip, and on road trips they will use fast charging locations, so what is important is more fast chargers, not a few battery swap locations. People that can't charge at home will also prefer a wider distribution of fast or medium speed chargers at shopping centres etc rather than a small number of battery swap facilities.


----------



## sptrawler (11 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> If I had to guess, I would say Nio will drop the battery change concept, or limit it to a very small number of locations, the battery change model offers almost no practical advantages in real world life, but is alot more expensive to setup along with other draw backs.
> 
> Tesla already played with the battery change idea, Nio probably originally got the Idea from Tesla, but Tesla abandoned it.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info VC, it is still good that there is robust competition, it all ends up improving the product for the consumer.
Maybe a combination of both might work as in delivery vans, if they are sitting idle they are on charge, but if it is a hectic day with no idle time a three minute swap out may be advantageous.
The same with taxis, or maybe company pool cars, the advantage of having the option may be a slight advantage for some people.

The other thing of course is the ability to lease the battery pack and keep the car, just say you are like me retired and really only using the car intermittently.
If I could buy a car but not the battery, I could lease a battery that suits my needs, if it is only for trips to the shop etc a small battery would suffice so the lease cost would be minimal.
If I want to do regular country runs a large battery pack would probably be the option, which obviously would cost more to lease.
Both would be able to be charged via normal charging outlets.

The difference is if I buy the car without the battery it would probably cost 40% less, so that leads to the issue do you buy a BEV for $60k with a range of 400klm, or do you buy a car for $35k and choose the battery range you want and can upgrade or change the battery lease at anytime? 
It's getting a bit like mobile phone's and internet data plans, in the holiday house or indeed your own home, do you have the NBN connected at $65/month or do you run a dongle at 365GB/yr for $365?

Interesting times ahead IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (11 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Thanks for the info VC, it is still good that there is robust competition, it all ends up improving the product for the consumer.
> Maybe a combination of both might work as in delivery vans, if they are sitting idle they are on charge, but if it is a hectic day with no idle time a three minute swap out may be advantageous.
> The same with taxis, or maybe company pool cars, the advantage of having the option may be a slight advantage for some people.
> 
> ...




Check out this video of an actual Nio battery swap location, you will see it is not quite as fast or seamless as the animations make them look.

You will also notice there is some regular fast chargers right next to the swap booth, considering the time that the swap actually took, and considering the fact that it would require the driver to be there, I think on a road trip I would just choose to park my car at the regular charger and walk away, rather than mess about for 7 minutes swapping the battery and then have to park the car some where else anyway while I take care of my bodily functions.







> The difference is if I buy the car without the battery it would probably cost 40% less, so that leads to the issue do you buy a BEV for $60k with a range of 400klm, or do you buy a car for $35k and choose the battery range you want and can upgrade or change the battery lease at anytime?
> It's getting a bit like mobile phone's and internet data plans, in the holiday house or indeed your own home, do you have the NBN connected at $65/month or do you run a dongle at 365GB/yr for $365?




I think the projected savings there are way higher than what they would be in reality.


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## sptrawler (11 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Check out this video of an actual Nio battery swap location, you will see it is not quite as fast or seamless as the animations make them look.
> 
> You will also notice there is some regular fast chargers right next to the swap booth, considering the time that the swap actually took, and considering the fact that it would require the driver to be there, I think on a road trip I would just choose to park my car at the regular charger and walk away, rather than mess about for 7 minutes swapping the battery and then have to park the car some where else anyway while I take care of my bodily functions.
> 
> ...




Agreed, but when it comes to China they have as big a bottomless pit of money as the U.S, they don't have a floated currency.
So they will do what fits their purpose and the mainstream manufacturers will follow suit, because there is a huge untapped market in China that is growing.
As an example, when Japan first introduced motorcycles in the 1960's they had their gearchange on the left hand side, the U.K who had been producing motorbikes for nearly a century had them on the right. The U.K manufacturers poo paahed the silly Japanese, the rest is history.
I'm just happy Australia hasn't committed to anything, because whatever they put in could turn to $hit at any point, we really are getting to the position where global standards need to be formulated IMO.


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## over9k (12 January 2021)

Here's the result:


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## over9k (12 January 2021)

Cross-posting from the oil thread as I feel like the two are intrinsically linked:


Ok couple of big posts coming up as I've been moving into a lot more oil & energy trades of late so here's the culmination of several weeks' of research:



In 2019, coal was the principal fuel for chinese electricity generation, providing more than half (60%) of China’s electricity generation. In that same year, over 89% of Australia's coal exports went to china.

Although changing natural gas prices and renewable costs generally produce proportional shifts in the electricity sector’s fuel mix, regionally-specific fuel dynamics and *resource availability* are also important factors.

Decreases in natural gas prices produce the largest changes in the generation mix. Natural gas is relatively insensitive to changes in renewable costs in China, and the largest driver of natural gas generation remains natural gas fuel prices.

Solar could become the predominant source of electricity generation by 2050 if renewable costs are low and natural gas prices are high or at the reference level, however:





A combination of geographic unsuitability plus significant natural gas reserves (which are yet to be extracted) makes this unlikely.

At the 2019 Paris climate change conference, China also pledged to reach peak carbon output by 2030, however, China has nearly 250 gigawatts (GW) of coal-fired power now under development, *more than the entire coal power capacity of the United States.* So when Xi says China will peak…what he is preparing us all for is a massive (they never stopped) and continued investment.

Our Chinese friends now have 97.8 GW of coal-fired power under construction, and another 151.8 GW at the planning stage. And so while some poor sap was penning Xi’s carefully crafted speech to the UN, Xi and his underlings were busy. Busy financing and building out what is likely to be the worlds most impressive global energy infrastructure.

Just this year plants accounting for some 17 GW began construction in China. To put this into context this is *more than the total amount approved during the previous two years*. But they are not only investing in their backyard. Nope… according to a Boston University database they have made more than $244 billion in energy investments abroad since 2000 with the bulk of that in recent years going into oil and gas.

(Yeah not wind, solar or renewable and recyclable Unicorn farts. Good 'ol O&G…)

A healthy $50 billion of has gone toward *dirty old coal*!

They’ve done all of this, and will continue to do more, while paying lip service to “carbon emission reductions”. That our western leaders are as gullible as they are is a tragedy but simply ensures the west is going to end up being a source of houseboys for their Chinese overlords by the next decade.

As mentioned by the institute for energy research:

_These Chinese corporations are building or planning to build more than 700 new coal plants at home and around the world, some in countries that today burn little or no coal, according to tallies compiled by Urgewald, an environmental group based in Berlin. Many of the plants are in China, but by capacity, roughly a fifth of these new coal power stations are in other countries. In total there are 1,600 new coal-fired plants planned or under construction in 62 countries, according to Urgewald’s tally, which uses data from the Global Coal Plant Tracker portal. The new plants would expand the world’s coal-fired power capacity by 43 percent. _

https://www.instituteforenergyresea...ement-china-india-continue-build-coal-plants/

So the question becomes, why?

Well, there's more to it than economics. Specifically, it's about the aforementioned *resource security: *






As you can see, shipping coal from australia is nowhere near the gauntlet that has to be run from the persian gulf all the way to east asia - to get an oil tanker from saudi arabia to china you have to pass no fewer than 11 different countries, all of which hate you, and keep _several _major shipping choke points/routes open all at once, and do so thousands upon thousands of KM from home.

Oil tankers are a lot of things, but nimble a 500,000 ton tanker is not:




And when they _have _to pass through _multiple_ choke points that can be closed without even so much as needing a navy, straits just a couple of dozen KM wide where just a handful of beach-launched missile batteries (even 100 year old artillery guns have that kind of range) are enough to cut almost the entirety of your oil supply off literally over night:








You can see why china, and indeed, all of asia, is so desperate to get off oil dependence. The problem is that, as I showed before, renewable energy just doesn't work in asia - the climate simply doesn't give them enough wind/sunlight in order for renewables to be able to do the job, which means that coal is the next best option.

Even if that means coal dependence, coal's a hell of a lot more secure/easier to get from australia than oil is from the persian gulf.

The middle-east is also acutely aware of this fact and it is why Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps troops on monday seized a south-korean oil tanker and forced the vessel to a nearby Iranian port in order to hopefully make the koreans release billions of dollars of Iranian assets frozen in South Korea under US sanctions:









						South Korea presses Iran over seized oil tanker as Gulf tensions rise | DW | 07.01.2021
					

Iran's seizure of a South Korean-flagged oil tanker comes after Tehran urged Seoul to release billions of dollars of Iranian assets frozen in South Korea under US sanctions.




					www.dw.com
				




In Other Non-OECD Asia, the main dynamic driving the region’s generation mix is a three-way competition between coal, natural gas, and renewable technologies. Without a unitary emissions policy in this region, natural gas and renewables are only *economically* competitive with coal generation when their respective fuel prices and capital costs are low. Decreasing natural gas fuel prices by 50% by 2050 makes natural gas the primary fuel for electricity generation in the region. Conversely, raising natural gas fuel prices, particularly when combined with lowered renewable capital costs, raises the aggregate generation share of solar, wind, and hydro technologies to 61%, more than double the Comparative Reference case levels (29%). Solar resources are generally the most economically competitive and available renewable technology in this region. Unlike China, however, this region can develop economically attractive hydro resources to help balance intermittent generation produced from wind and solar technologies.



			https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/ieo/pdf/IEO2020_IIF_Asia.pdf
		



So in other words, even now, renewables _still _aren't _economically _competitive with oil, but it isn't _economics _that's driving asia's energy policies, so we can expect endless subsidies for basically everything except oil (and obviously the more secure the energy type the more it will be favoured) until _some _form of secure energy becomes _economically _viable in asia, but simple geography (climate) means that that is still a _long _way off.

It actually looks like it's going to be coal that's the "transition" energy production fuel between oil & renewables as whilst coal isn't great from a supply security perspective, it's still a hell of a lot more secure than oil.

It also explains why collective governments throughout asia (china especially) are throwing everything including the kitchen sink at electric car production as electric cars can indirectly run on the much more supply-secure coal whereas ICE cars cannot.

But even if we take the whole energy-security question out of it completely, they still have a major problem just producing enough energy in the first place even now, which I'll cover in the next post.


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## over9k (12 January 2021)

So if things weren't bad enough when your energy supply isn't secure, imagine if you couldn't keep up with energy demand even when it _is: _







__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				




_China’s roaring industrial rebound from the pandemic has an unforeseen consequence -- the surge in power demand has left factories, office buildings and street lights in some areas straining under an electricity shortage.

The country’s local governments are cutting power to some industrial and commercial customers in several provinces. State-owned companies are sending an army of workers to inspect power lines, and authorities are urging coal miners to produce more.

But that’s done little to quell the stream of domestic media reports on struggling cities. With the rest of the world growing ever-more dependent on China’s medical equipment and electronics exports as their pandemic-ravaged economies suffer, the focus abroad is also increasingly turning to the Asian manufacturing giant’s power supply.

“As the global economy recovers, it will be imperative for China to stabilize its power supplies,” said Rana Mitter, professor of Chinese politics at the University of Oxford. “There is a move in the West to re-shore supply chains and unreliability of power supply in China could be another motivation to do this.”

The world is relying on China’s factories like never before. As one of the first economies to emerge from a pandemic induced lockdown, and as a leading producer of protective gear and medical equipment, China’s exports have soared to record levels. That’s led to surging demand for power, with November consumption up 9.4% over the previous year, the highest level in more than two years.

On top of that, colder-than-normal weather is now adding to winter demand as people heat their homes, and ice is also wreaking havoc on grid infrastructure. Meanwhile, some parts of the country are curtailing electricity to keep emissions in check. That’s left some regions without enough power during peak hours, with two expected to have lasting shortfalls.

“Weather conditions for the following months will be the key factor to determine the scale of the outage,” said Hanyang Wei, an analyst with BloombergNEF. “Peak load would drop quickly if cold weather lasts for just a few days.”

This is all happening as coal, the fuel of choice for a majority of China’s power generation, remains in short supply. The government had limited imports to support domestic miners, and imposed an unofficial ban on Australian shipments amid a diplomatic spat. But domestic supplies haven’t risen as much as needed following a recent spate of deadly mining accidents.

That’s left the country grappling with surging energy prices. Local coal futures have soared to a record, while the costs for natural gas, another heating and power fuel, have also jumped. State-owned energy giants have gone so far as to warn firms against publicly discussing the supply-demand issue on concern prices will rise further, and the government has urged major mining regions to boost output.

Nearly all major cities are facing colder temperatures this winter, with some as much as 5 degrees Celsius below last year’s levels, Morgan Stanley analysts including Sara Chan said in a Dec. 23 research note. This is the main reason behind the surge in coal prices and is helping drive government intervention in power allocation.

In Hunan and Jiangxi provinces, power supplies have been cut to some industrial and commercial customers after demand rose at least 18% from a year earlier and transportation issues curtailed coal supplies, a National Development and Reform Commission official said Monday. Hunan’s power supply could be short by as much as 12%, according to BNEF.

The power crunch “will probably linger as an issue for a couple more months,” said James Stevenson, senior director for coal, metals and mining at IHS Markit. “When you get this short, really what you need to do is curtail demand, and that is what we are seeing.”

Big industrial users are on the front-lines of being cut off from electricity, followed by commercial buildings, in order to keep supply safe for residential consumers, according to BNEF’s Wei said. “Local industries will take a hit if the outage lasts for long,” Wei said._

Result?

Everyone are buying diesel (yes, *diesel*) generators to produce their own electricity as the grid simply can't provide enough of it even now:





__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				




_A frigid winter is leading to power shortages in parts of China, driving up demand for diesel as factories rush to install generators to keep the lights on.

Some provinces have started rationing electricity to industrial and commercial users to make sure there’s enough power to heat homes during a colder-than-typical winter. That’s prompting factories to snap up portable generators and the diesel they run on to ensure their plants stay open to meet orders amid record-high exports from the country.

The Chinese meteorological authority earlier issued an orange alert nationwide - the second-highest level in its four-tier system - as a cold wave sweeps through the nation. With temperatures still expected to dip further, grid operators are prioritizing the supply of energy to homes and the community, leaving other customers to scramble for alternative power sources.

“Power cuts have brought us extra orders,” Huang Yu, a sales manager at Shandong Dianyuan Village Power Technology Co., a company that supplies generators of different sizes. “We have been quite busy since November, receiving non-stop orders from customers in Jiangsu and Zhejiang,” she said via phone.

The company, which has a wide range of generators including some large enough to power a small town, has sold more than 20 a day recently, more than triple the normal level, Huang said. Its social media account posted a video Dec. 17 showing trucks loading dozens of power generators getting ready for shipment to power-cut regions.

Wholesale diesel prices in China rose to the highest level since April, according to data from the country’s National Bureau of Statistics. Inventories of the fuel across the country fell 5.26% in the month to Dec. 25 to 20.76 million tons, according to information provider OilChem.

“If there is a shortfall in electricity, diesel is the most responsive energy to fill the gap,” Sengyick Tee, an analyst with Beijing-based SIA Energy said. “Even 0.5% of China’s electricity switching to power by diesel would make a large impact on diesel demand.”

China’s power demand has surged in the second-half of this year as its economy recovered from the pandemic and global demand for protective gear and medical equipment it produces soared. A colder-than-normal winter caused by a La Nina weather pattern added to that, boosting consumption by 11% in December, more than double the growth of a year ago, according to National Development and Reform Commission.

*Coal supplies have also been tight amid safety checks at domestic mines and import restrictions, *and natural gas has also been rationed to ensure supplies for heating. Governments cut electricity to some businesses in Hunan and Jiangxi provinces because of shortages, while Zhejiang officials also curtailed industrial power in order to meet emissions and efficiency goals for the five-year plan ending Thursday.

Beyond China, low temperatures are also affecting other nations across Northeast Asia. Japan’s spot power price extended its record-breaking rally as utilities struggle to keep pace with higher demand for heating, while South Korea is prepared to release state reserves of kerosene should supply of the heating fuel remain tight._






In short, climate change and economics might be what's driving the electric car and renewable energy phenomenon over here in the west where renewable energy is actually economically viable and we also actually care about the whole climate change thing, but in asia, it has absolutely _nothing _to do with _either_ of these things. They simultaneously have a completely vulnerable/insecure energy supply line and still can't produce enough power for themselves even when their supply _is _secure like it is now, let alone when it isn't.

You can also see how the moment any oil supply that has to transit the persian gulf/strait of malacca/sunda strait/lombok strait/the entire indonesia-timor-PNG-etc archipelago gets cut off anyone who produces oil anywhere else will be able to charge absolutely exorbitant prices as they'll effectively have the only deliverable oil supply left. This includes us in the west because the oil companies will just go hey, if you won't pay 4x the previous price (or whatever) then the asians will.

Until asia gets off its oil dependence, that is.


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## Value Collector (12 January 2021)

over9k said:


> It also explains why collective governments throughout asia (china especially) are throwing everything including the kitchen sink at electric car production as electric cars can indirectly run on the much more supply-secure coal whereas ICE cars cannot.




I think that is a point often over looked by people that really don't understand electric cars, eg. Electric cars can exploit all the same energy sources internal combustion engine (ICE) cars do, while also being able to exploit far more energy sources than ICE cars can't.

Think about it, ICE cars can pretty much only use crude oil and some limited biofuels.

While there is nothing stopping Electric Cars exploiting those same crude oil and biofuel resources, but they can also exploit many other sources such as natural gas, coal, nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, geothermal etc etc (insert endless list of energy sources here).

If the world went hard at electric cars and we really got short on other sources of energy for electrical generation, there is nothing stopping us  exploiting the crude oil supplies we would have used for ICE cars to generate electricity to charge EV's and it would be a lot better use of the oil because we can burn the whole barrel of oil to generate electricity including the parts that normally go to waste rather than just the components that go towards tradition fuels.


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## over9k (12 January 2021)

I believe it's also much more energy efficient to burn diesel etc in a generator and convert it into electricity than it is to burn it in an ICE vehicle too, so the fossil fuels literally go a lot further that way as well.


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## Value Collector (12 January 2021)

over9k said:


> I believe it's also much more energy efficient to burn diesel etc in a generator and convert it into electricity than it is to burn it in an ICE vehicle too, so the fossil fuels literally go a lot further that way as well.




Yes burning the diesel in a large generator is more efficient than using it to power an engine linked to a mechanical drive chain,... however skipping the whole refining crude into diesel part is even more efficient, eg just burning the entire barrel of crude in a super efficient combined cycle power plant.


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## over9k (12 January 2021)

Ah yep, here I thought you were talking about still burning refined fuels like they're currently doing with all the on-site generators. 

Do you know much about the big crude burning power plants? I'd be interested to hear if they need to be designed differently for different grades of crude, light/heavy, sweet/sour etc etc? 

To my mind it would be very silly to have a plant that could run on light/sweet but not heavy/sour but I'm not a powerplant engineer so I have no idea if such a thing is actually possible. 

I ask because shale crude (which I suspect you know) is a very different grade to conventional crude and shale crude, whilst it might be expensive if the conventional stuff is no longer available, may soon be the only stuff the asians can actually get their hands on, so if a powerplant can't actually use it then they'd be in _quite _the jam. 

If powerplants can't run on all grades of crude then that would only give them even more impetus to get off oil _entirely_.


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## sptrawler (12 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Yes burning the diesel in a large generator is more efficient than using it to power an engine linked to a mechanical drive chain,... however skipping the whole refining crude into diesel part is even more efficient, eg just burning the entire barrel of crude in a super efficient combined cycle power plant.



You are both right IMO, large diesel generators are around 50% efficient, combined cycle turbine generators are around 50% efficient. The difference being the diesel can go instantly to maximum continuous rating, whereas the combined cycle has to get correct steam temperatures before steam can go to the turbine on the steam set.
The big benefit E.V's have over ICE vehicles is, an E.V drive will be over 90% efficient whereas an ICE drivetrain will be in the 30% range for diesels, less for petrol. Due to the fact E.V's don't need a drive train, ie transmission, diff etc which has losses of around 16%.
But all interesting stuff IMO.


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## sptrawler (12 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Ah yep, here I thought you were talking about still burning refined fuels like they're currently doing with all the on-site generators.
> 
> Do you know much about the big crude burning power plants? I'd be interested to hear if they need to be designed differently for different grades of crude, light/heavy, sweet/sour etc etc?
> 
> ...



Depends what you are burning the fuel through, a boiler not a lot of difference, the heavy fuel oil requires fuel oil heaters whereas light fuel oil doesn't, also it may require a change of fuel oil guns depending on the boilers.
Diesel engines, it depends on size the really big low speed ones like on ships or very big generators can use heavy fuel oil, but again would use some pre heating for viscosity.
Medium speed and high speed diesels, can use medium fuel oil but waxing can be a problem if the temp starts getting down to low single figures, much easier to use light fuel oil.


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## over9k (12 January 2021)

Oh trawler. I totally forgot about you. You're definitely the man for that question. I would have tagged you if I'd remembered!


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## over9k (12 January 2021)

Ok so if I've understood you correctly - the big thing with EV's is that they have nowhere near the drivetrain loss?

So burning the fossil fuels in a powerplant doesn't actually produce (convert) _that _much more energy than an ICE but because the ICE has the drivetrain loss, the actual deployment/expenditure of the energy is far more efficient?

Edit: I just remembered that normal car ICE engines are about 33% efficient (2/3rds of the energy being lost to heat) so if a diesel generator is 50% efficient then it would actually be both raw efficiency and deployment efficiency as well.

Thanks dude!


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## sptrawler (12 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Oh trawler. I totally forgot about you. You're definitely the man for that question. I would have tagged you if I'd remembered!



It's just fun getting the grey matter going again, it has been a long time.
This E.V revolution is great IMO, imagine having a car as fast as a Porsche, that can run the house overnight, it don't get better than that. Bring it on IMO. 
Just saw your post, yes the big thing with the E.V is it doesn't need a drive train, just a speed controller on the electric motor, if it is A.C that will be a thyristor speed control. So the efficiency really is as high as 99%.
Have you ever watched a really long conveyor belt that is fully loaded with ore start up, it takes about 2 seconds to get up to speed, unbelievable torque,
The diesel cycle from memory is between 50-55% depending on compression ratio and or turbo charging, the carnot cycle(petrol) is up to 40% these days with direct injection and inert exhaust gas injection allowing compression ratios to be higher (approx 14/1 from memory) without pre ignition. That is why these new ICE petrol engines are getting such good fuel economies these days.
The other thing is from the earlier post, heavy fuel oil is banned in most places because of emissions


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## over9k (12 January 2021)

Yeah I'm a car guy so I know a few things about ICE deployment in normal cars but little about actual generators. I do know that electric motors make instant/full torque at any RPM though (on a dyno it's a perfectly level torque curve), hence your comment about conveyor belts.

Not sure how up to date you are with hybrids but there was a very big deal made a year or so ago when mercedes managed to make their ICE/electric combo "power unit" 50% efficient.


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## sptrawler (12 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Yeah I'm a car guy so I know a few things about ICE deployment in normal cars but little about actual generators. I do know that electric motors make instant/full torque at any RPM though (on a dyno it's a perfectly level torque curve), hence your comment about conveyor belts.
> 
> Not sure how up to date you are with hybrids but there was a very big deal made a year or so ago when mercedes managed to make their ICE/electric combo "power unit" 50% efficient.



The hybrids are interesting, i think if they are priced competitively, there will be a bug take up of them.
I took Toyota C-HR hybrid for a drive, just for interest sake, it was very impressive. The transition from ICE - E.V _ charging, was all seamless, I can see them being a big seller in the near future, the Camry hybrid is making big inroads into the taxi fleets.
I really liked the Nio post you put up about the battery swapping model, I think there will be a big market where a fast turn around might be required, especially if they can make it a quick swap out, VC says there is still some issues with the swap.
But like police work etc, where down time might be non existent, the ability to have plug in charging or battery swap option, would be very attractive.
It is all becoming really interesting.


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## Smurf1976 (13 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Ok so if I've understood you correctly - the big thing with EV's is that they have nowhere near the drivetrain loss?



All energy conversions (eg chemical to heat, heat to mechanical, mechanical to electrical, electrical to light, etc) involve losses. Some things are hugely inefficient, others are the opposite.

Electric motor efficiency is around 90%.

Really big diesel engines used for power generation achieve 46 - 48% efficiency in practice depending on operating conditions. That's taking into account losses in the engine (most of it) and alternator (minor).

That's for the largest internal combustion engines in use for fixed (not ships etc) power generation in Australia - they're 17.5 MW each. That's not large compared to steam or hydro turbines but it's as big as it gets for internal combustion.

Now the reason for mentioning great big engines like that is they're as good as it gets. Once you make the engine physically smaller and/or lighter relative to its power output, that comes at the expense of efficiency. Smaller and lighter but less efficient.

Then there's the problem that every time you hit the brakes, that energy is lost and in practical driving that's significant. Versus an EV that can recover not all but the majority of that via regenerative braking. Tricks like that aren't breaking any laws of physics but done well enough and they can create a situation where the real world fuel consumption of the vehicle "seems like" the engine is impossibly efficient (eg the Mercedes 50% efficiency). It's all above board, just akin to treating a saving as though it were income basically.

Idling whilst stopped in traffic is also a dead loss with internal combustion but no such issue with an EV.

To put some figures on it, take 1 litre of diesel fuel, run that through a great big engine in a power station and use the electricity to charge an EV. It'll move you about 25 km so about 4 litres / 100 km.

Of itself that's not hugely impressive but:

1. Very little electricity is actually generated from diesel or other oil-based fuels. For Australia as a whole it's about 2%. Non-oil sources have advantages in terms of supply security and so on quite separate from any environmental considerations.

2. Even if the source of electricity does involve burning fuel, exhaust emissions aren't normally discharged at ground level into a densely populated area in the way that conventional cars do. Rather, the power station's a considerable distance away and has a great big tall stack. Some impact on urban air quality possibly but far less.

3. To the extent the world's going to use renewable or nuclear energy sources, they produce electricity they don't produce petrol. Whilst not impossible, it's also a lot harder to get petrol out of coal than it is to turn it into electricity.

End result is an EV doesn't use zero oil but it uses stuff all compared to any petrol or diesel car.


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## Value Collector (13 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Ah yep, here I thought you were talking about still burning refined fuels like they're currently doing with all the on-site generators.
> 
> Do you know much about the big crude burning power plants? I'd be interested to hear if they need to be designed differently for different grades of crude, light/heavy, sweet/sour etc etc?
> 
> ...




As trawler said in a simple boiler type power plant grade wouldn’t matter, you can burn anything provided your equipment that injects the fuel can handle the consistency.

however the most efficient power plants are “combined cycle”, where the fuels in burned in a similar way to a jet engine and it turns a turbine, and the heat blown out also heats a boiler, for this type I would imagine grade is important.


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## Smurf1976 (13 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> however the most efficient power plants are “combined cycle”, where the fuels in burned in a similar way to a jet engine and it turns a turbine, and the heat blown out also heats a boiler, for this type I would imagine grade is important.



Steam turbine (boiler) = if it burns then it'll do. So far as oil is concerned, raw crude oil most certainly is burned for power generation and has been so for decades either with elaborate emissions controls (eg Japan does that) or with the whole lot just going straight up the stack in certain other places.

#6 fuel oil, which is heavier than the crude it came from, is the most common fuel used for that purpose though since it's cheap, being a left over after the petrol etc is distilled out. These days sulfur is pretty tightly regulated but that wasn't the case in the past, 4 - 5% wasn't uncommon as a limit internationally, in Tasmania it was 3% (different rules in each state....), some communist and Third World countries were burning ~8% sulfur oil and needless to say that wasn't kind to the environment around the plant not in the slightest.

Photo: Bell Bay Power Station (Tasmania) operating one x 120 MW unit on #6 heavy fuel oil. Old photo scanned from film - this facility is now permanently closed and partly demolished. For scale, the chimney height is 120m. Not really visible but there's a jetty out the front - the tankers just used to sail up and offload straight to the power station. Fuel consumption for each boiler (there were two complete sets of boiler, turbine, alternator etc - apart from sharing the same chimney and in the same building they were otherwise independent of each other) was about 435 litres a minute at full load so 1.25 million litres a day for both if run flat out.




FWIW during the 1970's oil crises emissions laws, to the extent they existed at the time, were commonly relaxed or simply overlooked when companies couldn't get compliant fuel. One very well known Australian company at one point during that era ended up burning tar in lieu of fuel oil - government decided that the plant had to stay running no matter what, there was no alternative couldn't get fuel oil and even crude was running dangerously low, and they were given the go ahead to do it.

The sulfur can be mostly removed from heavy fuel oil by the way, just wasn't done historically since it costs $ to do it but it can be done, it's not impossible and there are certainly oil refineries doing it and selling it as compliant (with emissions laws) fuel for ships.

Gas turbines either open or combined cycle = fuel needs to be free of ash. Heavy fuel oil and crude oil contain solids (ash) so that leaves distilled (refined) products - diesel, heating oil (#1 fuel oil), kerosene, anything like that. I've never heard of anyone using petrol due to economic and safety (flammability in storage) reasons of existing setups but with the right steps taken it could be done if the economics pushed it that way.

There's at least one plant in Australia that often takes off-spec aviation fuel for example - doesn't meet standards to go in a plane given the potential consequences of failure but in practice it's good enough, it burns and runs a power station sitting safely on the ground.

Internal combustion engines = can be designed to run just about anything but the key there is proper setup. Outside my area of knowledge with the details though beyond saying "it's possible to do it" but needs to be set up properly, it's not just a case of putting whatever you like in the tank and it works. Barker Inlet power station (SA) is set up for diesel and natural gas. The engines are technically able to run heavy fuel oil, they're low speed, but not set up that way in practice.


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## over9k (13 January 2021)

Alright so now we've all had a crash course on energy production, who out there knows about battery tech?


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## sptrawler (13 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Alright so now we've all had a crash course on energy production, who out there knows about battery tech?



My oldest son is heavy into studying it, he wants to go off grid, is a sparky and really interested. The perfect combination. 😂


----------



## over9k (13 January 2021)

Another cross-post:




Part 1 of post:



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
		


"Carmakers’ predicament is exacerbated by the fact that chips are crucial for the latest features they are touting, be it assisted driving, large displays or connectivity. Semiconductor-based components are set to account for more than 50% of a car’s manufacturing cost by 2030, up from about 35% now, and in semiconductors, China has only one company in the top 20, and *less than 5% of automotive chips are made in the country.* For some key components, carmakers rely *90% *on imports".

So yeah. They're VERY exposed to foreign sources of chips.

The USA is as well as a lot of chips are produced in south korea & taiwan but at least the americans have _some _production onshore. I know this is a bit outdated but I've managed to find at least SOME numbers:

1. U.S. semiconductor companies lead in global semiconductor market share, accounting for 51 percent of total global semiconductor sales in 2014.

2. U.S. semiconductor companies do most of their manufacturing (52 percent) in the United States.



			https://www.semiconductors.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/SIA-White-Paper-Made-in-America.pdf
		


So about 25% of america's chip production is onshore, vs 5% of china's. Or 1/4 vs 1/20th. Quite the difference.




Part 2:

Here's some updated info about just how much car production has ground to a halt:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-snarl-car-production-at-factories-worldwide

So it looks like things are now on backorder until Q3, but a lot of vaccines will be deployed/the economy will well & truly be back on the increase by then so that might actually add to car demand even more.





Part 3:

What all this means is that due to the tech now in cars, not least of all because electric cars are getting more & more & more marketshare, we now have a situation in which an increase in car demand thus also means a commensurate increase in chip demand at the same time as cars becoming ever more technical/chip reliant by the day. In other words, we have a double-whammy increase in chip demand from both an increase in car demand in and of itself combined with a chip-per-car _saturation _increase _at the same time_. Either of these factors alone would be increasing chip demand significantly but when you put them together at the same time you end up with a *multiplier effect *in demand increase.

I'm actually seriously considering selling my UDOW position off and pumping it all into SOXL in light of this. If an increase in demand for industrials gives a commensurate/follow-on increase in demand for microchips at the same time as chip saturation in said industrials is increasing, you have a singular demand increase for industrials vs an amplified or multiplied increase in demand for microchips, making microchips the much better place to be.

The only question from here is whether the rest of the market has already figured this out and thus already priced it in. SOXL is already very high.


Hmm. Looks like a busy day ahead.


----------



## sptrawler (13 January 2021)

Great post 9K, good info and probably why China is spending a lot on R&D obviously the chip manufacturers had a bit more foresight then the general produce manufacturers.


----------



## over9k (13 January 2021)

Hmm dunno. I mean I want to say yes but I feel like we might need someone that's been trading microchips etc perhaps exclusively (or a specialist chip/tech trader) to get a surer answer. 

You'd like to think that the chip companies have all kinds of internal data, trend analysts etc etc but it wouldn't be the first thing that the whole world missed but was obvious in hindsight so who knows.


----------



## over9k (14 January 2021)

Tesla Leads 10 Top-Selling EVs In China But New Rival Surprises
					

Tesla's Model 3 was the most sold EV in China last year, but BYD's Han made the list less than six months after launching. Tesla stock fell.




					www.investors.com


----------



## Value Collector (14 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Hmm dunno. I mean I want to say yes but I feel like we might need someone that's been trading microchips etc perhaps exclusively (or a specialist chip/tech trader) to get a surer answer.
> 
> You'd like to think that the chip companies have all kinds of internal data, trend analysts etc etc but it wouldn't be the first thing that the whole world missed but was obvious in hindsight so who knows.



I don’t know if it is relevant, but Tesla designs their own computer chip and has it made under contract by Samsung in Texas.


----------



## over9k (14 January 2021)

Well that would solve the logistical issue but there's still the question of the actual supply contracts. They'd probably have ordered X chips over Y period but if there's clauses which allow samsung to prioritise another customer that'll pay more then they're in a bit of a jam, same as if they want more chips than they've ordered but there's already a contract to supply someone else, that kind of thing. 

Short of buying some manufacturing capacity off the other company or something I suspect they're in a bit of a jam.


----------



## over9k (14 January 2021)

There's also this problem now:




Meanwhile:




USA manufactures far more chips on shore but taiwan & south korea are obviously a lot closer to china (easier to get supply from) than the 'states.

A classic case of needing to build where you sell.


----------



## over9k (14 January 2021)

Remember me making that post about elon having a business head as well as the technical know-how?

Well, you know what a huge part of business is?




Negotiation


----------



## sptrawler (14 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Remember me making that post about elon having a business head as well as the technical know-how?
> 
> Well, you know what a huge part of business is?
> 
> Negotiation



China plays the long game, now the reverse engineering starts. 😂


----------



## over9k (14 January 2021)

Ehhh they don't need musk to be operating/selling there to reverse engineer stuff though


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## sptrawler (14 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Ehhh they don't need musk to be operating/selling there to reverse engineer stuff though



No, but you do get to see exactly how he is doing everything, if you build and fit out the factory for him. 
Well worth the pocket change it would have cost the Chinese Government, also you keep abreast of any developments that come about. 
All you haven't got a handle on is the chip, which is where you spend your R&D, not on the whole article.
Only my thoughts.


----------



## Userman (14 January 2021)

* 

Ideanomics Sponsorship in NACFE, Prepares to Launch Medici Motor Works in North America*​
* 

NACFE sponsors represent a broad range of EV-related stakeholders from manufacturers, OEMs, fleet operators, energy companies, utilities, government and non-government agencies.

NEW YORK, -- Ideanomics (NASDAQ: IDEX) *announced its sponsorship in the North American Council for Freight Efficiency (NACFE). As Ideanomics prepares to launch its heavy truck and specialty electric vehicle unit, Medici Motor Works, in North America in 2021, it was imperative that the Company work with stakeholders and advocacy groups to understand the opportunities unique to the region.

NACFE is an unbiased, non-profit, organization that works with major stakeholders across North America's freight industry. It works with fleet operators, manufacturers, shippers, software providers, governments, associations, etc., and its mission is to double freight efficiency and progress towards zero-emissions. NACFE conducts studies and uses data analysis to drive the development and adoption of efficiency-enhancing, environmentally beneficial, and cost-effective technologies, services, and methodologies.

"NACFE takes a holistic approach to electric vehicle (EV) adoption and brings together important and influential companies in the freight industry," said Ideanomics CEO Alf Poor. "Our participation in NACFE will enable us to better understand the North American market at both a local and national level and, with this knowledge, improve the development and growth of our businesses in the EV space, which includes our MEG division, Medici Motor Works, and WAVE."









						Ideanomics Announces Its Sponsorship in NACFE, a Non-Profit Organization Focused on the North American Freight Industry
					

Ideanomics (NASDAQ: IDEX) ("Ideanomics" or the "Company") is pleased to announce its sponsorship in the North American Council for Freight Efficiency (NACFE). As Ideanomics prepares to launch its...




					investors.ideanomics.com


----------



## Value Collector (14 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> No, but you do get to see exactly how he is doing everything, if you build and fit out the factory for him.
> Well worth the pocket change it would have cost the Chinese Government, also you keep abreast of any developments that come about.
> All you haven't got a handle on is the chip, which is where you spend your R&D, not on the whole article.
> Only my thoughts.



Why bother reverse engineering when you can just tax the operation and get 30% of the profits anyway.


----------



## over9k (14 January 2021)

Cross-post:

TSMC's beat even the hugely inflated expectations:


----------



## sptrawler (14 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Why bother reverse engineering when you can just tax the operation and get 30% of the profits anyway.



Thats easy, they dont want the money, they are a regulated currency so it means nothing, they can just print it with out worrying about cross rate problems.
They are trying to become world leaders in manufacturing, the issue they have is what Japan had in the 1960s, Jap crap Chinese junk.
It took the Japanese a long time to develop the technology and have it accepted.
So China just want to fast track the process, what better way, than build your best competitors a manufacturing plant?
Tesla wont care, tbey get the profit margin and can shut down the U.S plant.
I read the other day Tesla has been offered a deal to build a space x launch facility in Indonesia.
It will be interesting to see if Tesla build a second plant in the U.S as demand ramps up.


----------



## over9k (14 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It will be interesting to see if Tesla build a second plant in the U.S as demand ramps up.




Not a shadow of doubt in my mind that we'll see that.

TSMC were just approved for a U.S based microchip plant too: https://www.extremetech.com/electro...open-3-5-billion-semiconductor-fab-in-arizona

There's a LOT of proposed/planned factories (for all types of things) in the US's approval queue.

The world is moving back to a build-where-you-sell model.


----------



## sptrawler (14 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Not a shadow of doubt in my mind that we'll see that.
> 
> TSMC were just approved for a U.S based microchip plant too: https://www.extremetech.com/electro...open-3-5-billion-semiconductor-fab-in-arizona
> 
> ...



Well it is the only way that living standards will be improved, sharing the manufacturing base, shares the profits and share s the wages.


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## Value Collector (15 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Thats easy, they dont want the money, they are a regulated currency so it means nothing, they can just print it with out worrying about cross rate problems.
> They are trying to become world leaders in manufacturing, the issue they have is what Japan had in the 1960s, Jap crap Chinese junk.
> It took the Japanese a long time to develop the technology and have it accepted.
> So China just want to fast track the process, what better way, than build your best competitors a manufacturing plant?
> ...



You can be the world leader in manufacturing by attracting the world best manufacturers to build their plants in your country.

you don’t need to be reverse engineering.

but at the end of the day, brand is important Coca Cola out sells it competitors not because of the secret formula in the safe in Atlanta but because of marketing and brand loyalty.


----------



## over9k (15 January 2021)

It's young people which are the consumers in an economy. China's had a baby bust, ergo no young consumers, ergo it needs to do something to attract business investment. 

If you aren't an attractive place to invest, you need to do something to change that - it can be as simple as tax breaks.


----------



## over9k (15 January 2021)

SOXL ran 6.5% and then a further 1.2% in aftermarket trading last night on the TSMC news just for everyone's information.

I still haven't sold and I won't until there's any kind of news of manufacturing catching up to backorders.


----------



## over9k (15 January 2021)

Other musings about electric cars: 

There's way more copper in an electric car (for what I would hope are obvious reasons) so more electric cars = more copper demand. Not effecting things dramatically now, but once electric cars sell in significant numbers... 

Might be worth buying copper miners as a long term play. It's the exact same follow-on effect as microchips that we were discussing, and for the same reasons. 

Copper itself is already at a 7 year high.


----------



## Value Collector (16 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Other musings about electric cars:
> 
> There's way more copper in an electric car (for what I would hope are obvious reasons) so more electric cars = more copper demand. Not effecting things dramatically now, but once electric cars sell in significant numbers...
> 
> ...




with BHP you get Copper and Nickel, both of which will increase in demand with EV’s.


----------



## over9k (16 January 2021)

Mmm might need to spend a morning looking into who supplies what.


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## Value Collector (16 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Mmm might need to spend a morning looking into who supplies what.



Bhp have some of the largest copper deposits in the world, and are making big investments to expand their Western Australia nickel exports, not to mention they have an iron ore business that’s booming at the moment.

there are plenty of smaller speculative players out there also, but and established company like BHP with a good dividend policy is good to have in a portfolio.


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## over9k (16 January 2021)

Agreed. But I'm a degenerate, so I'm looking for some growth plays as well.


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## Value Collector (16 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Agreed. But I'm a degenerate, so I'm looking for some growth plays as well.



Nothing wrong with that, provided it doesn’t impede your over all results at the end of the day.

it can be easy to chase fads and promises, and end up wasting lots of time and resources that could have been used in more solid investments.


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## over9k (16 January 2021)

Facetiousness aside, growth has absolutely massacred value lately:




With that being said, I'm not so silly as to misunderstand why. Interest rates will not be at 0 forever. The question is whether there's actually an organically driven growth play to be had, and if there is, I suspect copper is it.

All the other electric vehicle derived stuff like microchips & lithium have already shot up on account of what's gone on over the short term, the question just becomes whether the market's priced the long term in as well. Semiconductors, lithium, and copper are all at huge highs already with semiconductors and lithium in fact at all time highs. Copper, however, is "only" at a 7 year high so the question is whether that still has legs in it or not. Currently, electronic gadget demand is playing merry hell with chip and copper supply but that _will _eventually subside once we can all spend our money on, well, anything else again. Chips have very strong long term tail winds behind them even ignoring coronavirus (i.e there's the massive organically driven chip demand increase from tech changes in cars that we've already discussed), copper I'm still not so sure about.

Ideally I'd get both value and growth like I did with FMG (bought it as a value, it's been a growth as well) but things rarely work out that well.

Bottom line is that this require more, er, digging.


----------



## over9k (16 January 2021)

And in a beautiful dovetail of the previous discussion of supply security/the world moving back to a "build where you sell" model and this discussion about copper, wouldn't you know it, BHP & RIO are already trying to get a massive copper mine approved in, you guessed it, the united states:









						BHP, Rio Tinto's new copper mine under threat
					

Mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP have a lot riding on this new venture, but now face a lawsuit from the indigenous community.




					www.fool.com.au
				




And the challenge to stop it has just been thrown out literally yesterday:

https://www.mining.com/judge-denies-native-american-bid-to-block-rio-tintos-copper-project/


Looking at BHP's share price, it has tracked the rest of the market near perfectly with the dip into late october and then all the elections/vaccines/stimulus package/more elections news has just sent it, along with everything, up & up & up so to the uninitiated observer it'd just look like a simple market tracking parallel but if what I've mentioned above is true then there's much more to this/it probably should have run even more than it already has.

Yet, it hasn't. So either I've figured out something that the rest of the market hasn't yet, or I'm wrong.


----------



## Value Collector (16 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Facetiousness aside, growth has absolutely massacred value lately:
> 
> View attachment 118547
> 
> ...




(at the risk of going over a topic I have written about many times on this forum)

“growth investing” and “value investing” are not two different things, they are one and the same.

a value investor doesn’t ignore growth, expected growth is part of a valuation.

if  you think growth had massacred value, you probably don’t understand what it means to value a company.

but don’t just take my word for it, here is one of the worlds best value investors to explain it in 1 minute.

If you decide to put $1 into what you would call a growth company today, you should be basing your expectations on some sort of arithmetic on what you think the expected growth will be, how long that growth will take, and the eventual share holder earnings that growth will produce, and that my friend is value investing.

infact the calculations you are doing above where you were trying to decide if something is “priced in” is value investing.


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## over9k (16 January 2021)

I think you're taking the terms literally, not in their jargon-sense.


----------



## Value Collector (16 January 2021)

over9k said:


> I think you're taking the terms literally, not in their jargon-sense.




I am just explaining what value investing is, and in the process explaining what I mean when I call my self a value collector, if you go back in this thread a little and see the post where I was estimating how many cars Tesla would have to sell to justify its current market valuation, that is value investing thinking.

“Jargon” or not, anyone that tries to tell you that “value and growth” are different things is just plan wrong or just trying to sell you something without understanding it.

if by “value investing” they really mean “net asset investing” or some other thing that sometimes gets confused with value investing they should just say that.


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## over9k (16 January 2021)

C'mon dude, you know full well that I was talking purely in the jargonistic sense, as would anyone else using the, you know, jargon. If you use the terms in a different way to everyone else, you're going to have people fail to understand what you're talking about almost constantly, no matter how right you are in your "they're actually the same thing" assertion. I wasn't using the term because I don't understand that they're effectively the same thing, I was using the term to describe something.

You are not the first or only person here to realise the effective lack of difference between these two things.


Can we get back to the topic at hand rather than a discussion about semantics?

BHP & RIO dropping two billion on a new copper mine should tell everyone a lot. You don't do that kind of thing without very good reason. Question is, is it the reason I have described above? My gut tells me yes, as it's not like I'm the first person to go "gee, more electric cars = more demand for the stuff that goes in them".


----------



## basilio (16 January 2021)

*Sono Motors reveals $34,000 Sion solar car “you can really afford”*

January 13, 2021
No comments
3 minute read
Bridie Schmidt



	

		
			
		

		
	
                                    Sion solar car. Source: Sono Motors                                            

German start-up Sono Motors has unveiled its Sion solar car via now-online technology expo CES2021 on Wednesday (Australia time), billing it as a solar car “you can really afford”.
The Sion will be priced from €21,429 (ex-VAT) according to Sono Motors chief operating operator Thomas Hausch who introduced the Sion via a live stream event on Wednesday.
This equates to $33,692 in Australian dollars – cheaper than any all-electric car currently on the Australian market, even the MG ZS EV which was introduced in late 2020 from $40,990 before on-roads.
And it’s far cheaper even than the VW ID.3 all-electric hatch, which costs around €35,500 ($A55,812 converted) in Europe.









						The Sion - the car that charges itself | Sono Motors
					

The Sion is the first series-ready solar electric vehicle that is able to charge the battery via the power of the sun. All this for just €28,500



					sonomotors.com


----------



## Value Collector (16 January 2021)

over9k said:


> C'mon dude, you know full well that I was talking purely in the jargonistic sense, as would anyone else using the, you know, jargon.




In that case, I genuinely have no Idea what that jargon means.

When you said Growth destroyed value, I have no idea by what you were meaning by growth and what you were meaning by value, or the meaning of the entire sentence, I thought you were trying to say "growth stocks" massively out performed "value stocks", which as I have explained doesn't make sense to me, because it assumes they are to different things.

What were you trying to say with that sentence? (genuine question here, as I said the sentence completely confuses me)


----------



## Value Collector (16 January 2021)

basilio said:


> *Sono Motors reveals $34,000 Sion solar car “you can really afford”*
> 
> January 13, 2021
> No comments
> ...




interesting idea, I still feel solar panels on cars are a bit of a gimmick, I mean most of us prefer to park out cars in the shade if we can, but I guess if you are forced to park outside every day the solar panels might be handy, if only to run your air-conditioning to keep your car cool and prevent damage.


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2021)

I don't know how old you guys are @Value Collector  and @over9k , but I have seen BHP have a price crash at least three times over my investment lifespan, so Im sure you will see it again.


----------



## Value Collector (16 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I don't know how old you guys are @Value Collector  and @over9k , but I have seen BHP have a price crash at least three times over my investment lifespan, so Im sure you will see it again.




I think the first 1 minute of this video sums that up perfectly, it’s not something to be fear, it’s just business as usual.


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2021)

I didn't listen to it but I presume he said the same.


----------



## Value Collector (16 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I didn't listen to it but I presume he said the same.



You only have to listen to the first 60 seconds, it worth the listen.


----------



## sptrawler (16 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> You only have to listen to the first 60 seconds, it worth the listen.



OMG Maybe next week, this week has been a nightmare, I just want it to end.
The last thing I need is in-depth anything.


----------



## Belli (17 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I still feel solar panels on cars are a bit of a gimmick, I mean most of us prefer to park out cars in the shade if we can, but I guess if you are forced to park outside every day the solar panels might be handy, if only to run your air-conditioning to keep your car cool and prevent damage.




Park and Plug?


----------



## over9k (17 January 2021)

Belli said:


> Park and Plug?
> 
> View attachment 118555



Unfortunately, that amount of solar panelling will do 3/8ths of f**k all to all of those cars even if they were parked there for an entire day.

I suspect it's pure economics of running the air conditioning in the shopping centre or something like that, so unless the centre can on-sell the power for more than they pay for it (and why would anybody do that when they can just charge their car with their own cheaper electricity at home), we aren't going to see park & charge like this.


----------



## Belli (17 January 2021)

Of course not, hence the smiley. However, I assume that as the cars are parked in the shade of the solar panels, they wouldn't need 3/8th's of f&&& all power for the aircon.


----------



## over9k (17 January 2021)

Er, running a car's aircon? When it's parked? And you're inside? 

Wut?


----------



## over9k (17 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> In that case, I genuinely have no Idea what that jargon means.
> 
> When you said Growth destroyed value, I have no idea by what you were meaning by growth and what you were meaning by value, or the meaning of the entire sentence, I thought you were trying to say "growth stocks" massively out performed "value stocks", which as I have explained doesn't make sense to me, because it assumes they are to different things.
> 
> What were you trying to say with that sentence? (genuine question here, as I said the sentence completely confuses me)



Value = stock you buy to get its dividends, growth = stock you buy to see its market cap increase 

obviously a 5% (or whatever) dividend (ignoring franking) is going to be the same figure as a market cap increase of 5%, but there's the question of which is the better bet and market caps have increased way way way above dividends that have been paid lately. way above.


----------



## Value Collector (17 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Value = stock you buy to get its dividends, growth = stock you buy to see its market cap increase.



Again that makes no sense to me, I think you either avoided watching that short Buffett video I posted or didn’t understand what he is talking about.

You can be a value investor and buy a share that doesn’t pay a dividend, not paying a dividend doesn’t mean it’s not a value investment.

A “growth company” is just a company that I believe or the market believes is making credible steps to grow and therefore increase its underlying value, it’s all based on value it’s not a separate thing, growth companies don’t stop being value investments until their share price is to high based on their future growth.

The only reason you would buy a growth company is because you believe it’s increasing in value, you shouldn’t be ignoring value, you should be making your best estimates to what you think it’s future value is and comparing that to the price today.... and in the process you are “value investing” and “growth investing” because they are not mutually exclusive terms.


----------



## Value Collector (17 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Er, running a car's aircon? When it's parked? And you're inside?
> 
> Wut?




Tesla’s have a “Cabin Overheat Protection” setting, where if your car is parked in the sun it will use the fan or the aircon to keep the car under 40 degrees, it usually sits at about 38 degrees.

You can also keep the climate control running while you are away from the car if you want, I had some groceries in the car the other day and kept the car at 12 degrees while I dropped into another shop.

You can also control the car temp using the app, so you can turn on the aircon or the heater on a few minutes before you get back to your car, so its nice temp when you get into your car.

It also has dog mode, where it keeps the climate control on while your parked, if you want to leave your dog in the car.

Yeah, with EV’s there are plenty of options no available in petrol cars.


----------



## basilio (17 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla’s have a “Cabin Overheat Protection” setting, where if your car is parked in the sun it will use the fan or the aircon to keep the car under 40 degrees, it usually sits at about 38 degrees.
> 
> You can also keep the climate control running while you are away from the car if you want, I had some groceries in the car the other day and kept the car at 12 degrees while I dropped into another shop.
> 
> ...



Wow!!  That is seriously useful.
Re the integrated solar panels on the Sono. I think it makes good sense across a number of points

1) No need to paint the car.  Just saved *that *production cost
2) The technology of integrated solar panels is getting very cost effective and potentially more efficient/productive. 38 klms extra travel a day is not to be dismissed.  It could well improve. In a number of cases it can be the total daily commute.

On a financial basis consider the economic value of say 300 days  in  a year producing an average of 25klms travel distance. That is 7500 klms of travel effectively free. I don't believe that is small fry. The company claims it can generate up to 35 Klms a day extra travel in Germany. I'm rounding it down by 30%\

Plus the following plug for the car.

*Low Cost Maintenance*
Our clever 3-step maintenance system keeps repair costs as low as possible.

DIY is back. Standard replacement parts can be changed by yourself without needing much prior knowledge.
By publishing a workshop handbook, we make it possible to establish an extensive network of independent mechanics.
For any repairs involving high-voltage or body parts, we cooperate with a well-known European service provider.


----------



## over9k (17 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla’s have a “Cabin Overheat Protection” setting, where if your car is parked in the sun it will use the fan or the aircon to keep the car under 40 degrees, it usually sits at about 38 degrees.
> 
> You can also keep the climate control running while you are away from the car if you want, I had some groceries in the car the other day and kept the car at 12 degrees while I dropped into another shop.
> 
> ...



No different to just leaving the engine running with the a/c on then?

And before anyone carries on about leaving the keys in the car, there's FOB keys and/or the ability to just have a 2nd key. This is definitely something ICE cars could do. 



Value Collector said:


> Again that makes no sense to me, I think you either avoided watching that short Buffett video I posted or didn’t understand what he is talking about.
> 
> You can be a value investor and buy a share that doesn’t pay a dividend, not paying a dividend doesn’t mean it’s not a value investment.
> 
> ...



I was referring to the jargon...


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> It also has dog mode, where it keeps the climate control on while your parked, if you want to leave your dog in the car.



On one hand, great idea.

On the other you know the car has that function but 99.9% of people don't. Most people seeing that are going to assume the dog's in danger in a seriously hot car and some will take action in regards to that.

It's one of those things where technology is ahead of society with that one.


----------



## Value Collector (17 January 2021)

over9k said:


> No different to just leaving the engine running with the a/c on then?
> 
> And before anyone carries on about leaving the keys in the car, there's FOB keys and/or the ability to just have a 2nd key. This is definitely something ICE cars could do.
> 
> ...



Leaving your ice car running when you are more than 3m away is illegal.

But more important an EV you don’t have a huge engine running wasting a tonne of fuel, you just have a small electric motor efficiently running the fans or aircon depending.

Also, cabin over heat protection only kicks in when the temp rises towards 40 degrees, it will first attempt to just use fans to blow in air from outside, but if that is not enough to keep the cabin under 40 it will use the minimum amount of air con to maintain the cabin at 38 degrees.

Cabin over heat protection uses very little energy, where as leaving your ICE car running would be a huge waste, not to mention blowing poison gas at everyone else in the car park.

so yeah, the old ICE cars can’t really do that, at least not efficiently, safely or legally.

——————

I will leave that jargon to you, because it seems nonsensical to me.


----------



## Value Collector (17 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> On one hand, great idea.
> 
> On the other you know the car has that function but 99.9% of people don't. Most people seeing that are going to assume the dog's in danger in a seriously hot car and some will take action in regards to that.
> 
> It's one of those things where technology is ahead of society with that one.




It puts up a notification on the cars display letting anyone that looks in that the car is in “Dog Mode” and tells them the temp.


----------



## over9k (17 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Leaving your ice car running when you are more than 3m away is illegal.
> 
> But more impin an EV you don’t have a huge engine running wasting a tonne of fuel, you just have a small electric motor efficiently running the fans or aircon depending.
> 
> ...



ICE cars use vanishingly little fuel at idle:



And an ICE car can use just fans in the literal exact same way an electric car can as the fans themselves run on electricity. It's the A/C which needs the engine running.

I'm also pretty doubtful about the legalities you mention, it might be true for public property/parking on the street but on private property this would literally make it illegal to leave your car running if you forgot your wallet and just ran inside to get it or something, which sounds patently absurd.

Ignoring that entirely, if this was a feature people really cared about, a decent ICE car battery has more than enough juice to run an air conditioning compressor for a while. MORE than enough.


This just isn't something that can't be added to ICE cars if it becomes a selling point. It's nice, but this isn't an electric car exclusive feature. 


> ——————
> 
> I will leave that jargon to you, because it seems nonsensical to me.



It's used literally dozens of times a day when discussing investment strategies by, well, basically everyone. I've seen it squillions of times just on this forum alone. Seems odd that I'm the one telling you this TBH?


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> ICE cars use vanishingly little fuel at idle:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





here is an article mentioning thats It’s illegal to leave your car running.
https://corporatedrivertrainingaustralia.com.au/leaving-a-car-unattended/

we have already discussed the fact that Internal combustion engines lose about 70% of their energy to heat etc, this is no different while idling, ofcourse idling uses less than full throttle, but it can’t compete with a dedicated electric motor that only runs the aircon or fans.

just look at the size of the ICE cars engine, and all the moving parts of the engine, including the water pumps and cooling fans required to remove all that wasted heat just so you can turn the air con compressor vs having a simple small electric motor turning the compressor with almost no energy loses compared to the ice car.



> Ignoring that entirely, if this was a feature people really cared about, a decent ICE car battery has more than enough juice to run an air conditioning compressor for a while. MORE than enough.





I don’t think people would appreciate not being able to start their cars at the end of the day because the tiny battery in their ICE car is flat.

people don’t care about this feature until they have it in their lives, it’s a good little luxury, it’s not something you buy an ev specifically for, but it’s one of the many things you appreciate once you have it, like not having to visit the petrol station anymore, 



> It's used literally dozens of times a day when discussing investment strategies by, well, basically everyone. I've seen it squillions of times just on this forum alone. Seems odd that I'm the one telling you this TBH?




 talking heads in the media say heaps of dumb sheet, and as I said it’s nonsensical, and whom ever you are saying uses the terms as opposites in this forum are just plain wrong.

but this is the car thread, so I will leave it at that.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> here is an article mentioning thats It’s illegal to leave your car running.
> https://corporatedrivertrainingaustralia.com.au/leaving-a-car-unattended/



That's about theft and security. By its and your logic, it would be illegal to accidentally lock your keys in your car and go into a shop or something "leaving your vehicle unattended" to call RACQ to come & break into it for you. Absurd.

But I already said the engine doesn't have to be running for the battery to power some air conditioning, and it certainly doesn't need to be running for a battery to run the fans only either.

So even if we accepted your "the engine can't be idling" argument, it doesn't matter, because the engine doesn't need to be idling for the fans and/or air conditioning to be running. 


> we have already discussed the fact that Internal combustion engines lose about 70% of their energy to heat etc, this is no different while idling, ofcourse idling uses less than full throttle, but it can’t compete with a dedicated electric motor that only runs the aircon or fans.
> 
> just look at the size of the ICE cars engine, and all the moving parts of the engine, including the water pumps and cooling fans required to remove all that wasted heat just so you can turn the air con compressor vs having a simple small electric motor turning the compressor with almost no energy loses compared to the ice car.




Twice or even three times zero is still zero.

ICE engines use vanishingly little fuel at idle. The proportion becomes irrelevant when we're talking multiples of nearly nothing.



> I don’t think people would appreciate not being able to start their cars at the end of the day because the tiny battery in their ICE car is flat.



It won't be. Like I said, an ICE car battery has more than enough capacity to run the air conditioning for five minutes (or whatever) before you get in the car. 

I don't think you realise how much fan and/or air conditioning running time a normal car battery actually has in it. 



> people don’t care about this feature until they have it in their lives, it’s a good little luxury, it’s not something you buy an ev specifically for, but it’s one of the many things you appreciate once you have it, like not having to visit the petrol station anymore,




And as I've demonstrated, it's not something unique to electric cars, making your point irrelevant. 



> talking heads in the media say heaps of dumb sheet, and as I said it’s nonsensical, and whom ever you are saying uses the terms as opposites in this forum are just plain wrong.



I'm going to continue using the terms in the same way that absolutely everyone else understand their meaning and therefore use. If you choose to interpret them in a way other than how you know I and everyone else mean it, that's on you. 

Everyone else know what I'm referring to, oddly enough.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> It puts up a notification on the cars display letting anyone that looks in that the car is in “Dog Mode” and tells them the temp.



Well I wasn't expecting they'd thought of that one!

(Seriously, for any other car it's a very real problem - people leave animals in hot cars and they die yes).


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> I don't think you realise how much fan and/or air conditioning running time a normal car battery actually has in it.



For the A/C literally zero since, in most cars at least, it's driven from the engine and is not electric. There are exceptions, cars with electric A/C, but that's not what the average car has.

For the fan, in theory a few hours as long as it's only the fan you're using. That said, I've only ever driven one ICE car that lets you turn the fan on with the key in "accessory" position and none which allow running the fan without the key in the ignition.

As for idling engines, did that for an extended period once (10 hours or so). It was for a reason, power was being tapped off the 12V and far more current than the battery could supply without going flat, so running the engine was the workaround.

All good, seemed to suffer no harm but then when I got in the car and drove off after it had been idling all day there was an almighty cloud of black stuff which came out the exhaust.


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> It won't be. Like I said, an ICE car battery has more than enough capacity to run the air conditioning for five minutes (or whatever) before you get in the car.




5 minutes???
cabin over heat protection needs to be able to run for 5 hours.

what’s the point of having a cabin over heat protection if it only keeps your car cool for the first 5 minutes of your 8 hour work day?

this is what I am talking about, the standard lead acid battery will not hold enough charge to keep run the air con for any practical length of time and still be able to start the car, especially once that battery is 2 years old.




> And as I've demonstrated, it's not something unique to electric cars, making your point irrelevant.



Have you? Which Ice cars have this feature.




> ICE engines use vanishingly little fuel at idle. The proportion becomes irrelevant when we're talking multiples of nearly nothing.



Firstly 600mil per hour is not nothing, and as that guy in the video said, even the cars manufacturer testing says it’s higher than that.

 secondly, that’s is for an engine with no load, as soon as you put the aircon on in an ICE car you can hear the engine begin to labour more, increasing fuel consumption, so it could be easily over 1 litre and hour probably closer to 2 litres for the average size engine.

so that’s consuming up to $3 of fuel per hour.

which means when I parked my car outside yesterday (Hot Queensland day), I would have burned about $15 of petrol vs $0.45 of electricity, I don’t think people would want their engines running burning cash like that.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> For the A/C literally zero since, in most cars at least, it's driven from the engine and is not electric. There are exceptions, cars with electric A/C, but that's not what the average car has.
> 
> For the fan, in theory a few hours as long as it's only the fan you're using. That said, I've only ever driven one ICE car that lets you turn the fan on with the key in "accessory" position and none which allow running the fan without the key in the ignition.
> 
> ...




I'm well aware of how it's driven currently, same as I'm aware that the key needs to be in the accessories position in order to turn the accessories on.

I'm saying it can be added to ICE cars very easily if it becomes a selling feature. In fact, it could have been added to ICE cars years and years and years ago, so either none of the ICE manufacturers thought of it, or it's a pointless gimmick.



Value Collector said:


> 5 minutes???
> cabin over heat protection needs to be able to run for 5 hours.



No it doesn't?

If it takes ten minutes (or whatever) to cool the car down from whatever temp it is in the sun to a comfortable temperature to get in to, then it needs to run for ten minutes.

It only needs to run for the amount of time necessary to bring the car down to whatever temp you've decided.


> what’s the point of having a cabin over heat protection if it only keeps your car cool for the first 5 minutes of your 8 hour work day?



Er, what?

Why would you be cooling your car when you're not in it?


> this is what I am talking about, the standard lead acid battery will not hold enough charge to keep run the air con for any practical length of time and still be able to start the car, especially once that battery is 2 years old.



You're defining practical level of time as hours. Why would you be cooling your car when you're not in it?


> Have you? Which Ice cars have this feature.



The feature is not unique, it can be (could have been years ago) added to ICE cars any time the market actually wants it. You're acting as if this is something that ICE cars _can't _do rather than something they _aren't _doing, which are completely different things.


> Firstly 600mil per hour is not nothing, and as that guy in the video said, even the cars manufacturer testing says it’s higher than that.



Yeah but you're not running the car at idle for hours are you? You're running it for 5-10 mins before you get in it. So burning 60ml (depending on engine size), or about 10c, of fuel.


> secondly, that’s is for an engine with no load, as soon as you put the aircon on in an ICE car you can hear the engine begin to labour more, increasing fuel consumption, so it could be easily over 1 litre and hour probably closer to 2 litres for the average size engine.
> 
> so that’s consuming up to $3 of fuel per hour.
> 
> which means when I parked my car outside yesterday (Hot Queensland day), I would have burned about $15 of petrol vs $0.45 of electricity, I don’t think people would want their engines running burning cash like that.




I think if you leave your car parked with the air conditioning running for the entire day without anyone actually in the car, you're a moron.



Can someone please explain this premise of leaving the air conditioning running for hours and hours and hours at a time without anyone actually in the car? Why would anyone do this?

As best I can tell, you just want to keep the car cool for a few MINUTES either when you leave the dog in the car or you want it to be cool when you get back in it, so you just fire up the air conditioning ten minutes before you finish work and get into a nice cool car? 

I genuinely can't understand this whole "it needs to be running for hours" thing?


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> No it doesn't?
> 
> If it takes ten minutes (or whatever) to cool the car down from whatever temp it is in the sun to a comfortable temperature to get in to, then it needs to run for ten minutes.
> 
> It only needs to run for the amount of time necessary to bring the car down to whatever temp you've decided.




The point of the cabin over heat protection is to protect the car and its contents from damage and premature deterioration caused my constantly exposing the interior to super high temps, so turning on for 5 to 10 minutes doesn't quite cut it.




> Er, what?
> 
> Why would you be cooling your car when you're not in it?




As explained above, "cabin over heat protection" just keeps the car below 40 degrees to protect the car and its contents, exposing the car and other equipment to 60+ degrees temps is not good. 



> You're defining practical level of time as hours. Why would you be cooling your car when you're not in it?




Let me explain the various modes.

1, Cabin over heat protection mode - Stops the car exceeding 40 degrees for the protection of the car and sensitive things like phones you may have left in it.

2, Climate control - Brings the car down/up to what ever temp you decide before you arrive back at car or you can leave it on to protect groceries etc. 

3, Dog Mode- Keeps the car cool/warm for Rover while you are temporarily away

4, Camp mode- like Dog mode for people, but also allows entertainment and arcade features to operate



> The feature is not unique, it can be (could have been years ago) added to ICE cars any time the market actually wants it. You're acting as if this is something that ICE cars _can't _do rather than something they _aren't _doing, which are completely different things.




Ice cars can't run cabin over heat protection for any practical time.

Also, its a bit like saying Ice cars could have added self driving and sentry modes, so Tesla isn't unique, the fact is they didn't add those features, so Tesla is unique.



> Yeah but you're not running the car at idle for hours are you? You're running it for 5-10 mins before you get in it. So burning 60ml (depending on engine size), or about 10c, of fuel.




As explained above, cabin over heat protection runs all day every day when ever they car is going to go over 40 degrees, and doesn't require a massive engine idling, it just intelligently turns on and over, nothing like that exists in Ice cars.




> I think if you leave your car parked with the air conditioning running for the entire day without anyone actually in the car, you're a moron.




At this point I think you just don't understand the cabin overheat protection mode, it turns on and off as needed, its you that was saying you could replicate this feature by leaving your car idling, which would be moronic.



> Can someone please explain this premise of leaving the air conditioning running for hours and hours and hours at a time without anyone actually in the car? Why would anyone do this?




Hopefully by this point I have repeated my self enough times for you to understand that cabin overheat protection mode runs all day to keep the car below 40 degrees, but aircon only switches on and off as necessary to keep it below 40degrees which is still fairly warm, but its low enough to prevent undue damage or deterioration to you car and personal bellowing left inside the car.

Remember - It was you that suggested ICE cars could achieve this by leaving their engines idling to run the aircon, not me. 

I think the only reason you find this feature weird is because you are thinking like an ICE car owner, where in the back of your mind running the aircon is a cumbersome and expensive exercise, so it seems simpler to just let your car bake all day cooking the inside, where as once you have an EV you will see have a feature that protects the car and its contents by intelligently switching the fans and aircon on and off every now and then is simple and low cost good idea.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The point of the cabin over heat protection is to protect the car and its contents from damage and premature deterioration caused my constantly exposing the interior to super high temps, so turning on for 5 to 10 minutes doesn't quite cut it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You're not hearing me. I don't understand the point of "cabin overheat mode" when no person or dog is in the car. What is the point? To make the floor mats more comfortable?


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## basilio (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> You're not hearing me. I don't understand the point of "cabin overheat mode" when no person or dog is in the car. What is the point? To make the floor mats more comfortable?




I think you are beating a dead horse into absolute pulp here over9K. Perhaps give it away and focus on other constructive elements of EV cars ?

I have to say I am very impressed with the cabin cooling technology of Tesla cars to cheaply and easily :

1) Protect the interior of the car from temperature extremes on hot days
2) Cool the car before you get into it
3) Protect an animal *and have a big screen telling people the internal temperature* and what is happening

One wouldn't  necessarily buy the car because of these features but wow what a bonus. And really I don't believe it would be anywheere near as practical/viable to attempt a similar exercise in an ICE car - unless they were a hybrid and somehow had integrated this technology into the electric components of the car. (And I don't think that would work because the A/C I suspect would be operated through the petrol motor)


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## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> You're not hearing me. I don't understand the point of "cabin overheat mode" when no person or dog is in the car. What is the point? To make the floor mats more comfortable?




There is often more than just floor mats in the car. 

Lets take the iPhone for example, its a common thing people leave in their car, Apple don't recommend exposing it to temps above 40 degrees,  But a car with no cabin overheat protection left in the sun can have temps rise to 116 degrees, now if you think thats good for the growing amount of electronics modern cars have, by all means avoid over heat protection (you can switch it off if you like).

Its also not just electronics, heat speeds up the rate of deterioration for all sorts of trimmings and especially leather which will dry and crack faster if exposed to heat, Tesla is focused on producing 1,000,000 mile cars I think they are playing the long game here, helping peoples cars look good for longer, while also protecting their gadgets and other stuff.

As I said sometime it also comes in handy to be able to leave a cheese cake in your car for 40 mins and have climate control cool the car while you duck away for a last minute thing, You never know till you need it, and like anything once you have these options, situations always seem to pop up.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

basilio said:


> I think you are beating a dead horse into absolute pulp here over9K. Perhaps give it away and focus on other constructive elements of EV cars ?
> 
> I have to say I am very impressed with the cabin cooling technology of Tesla cars to cheaply and easily :
> 
> ...



If by that you mean that I think that anyone who buys an electric car because it has "cabin overheat protection" is an idiot, then yes.

The only reason to run the a/c when you're not in the car would be to leave a pet in it or to cool it down before you got in it, both of which would only ever be a few minutes at a time, meaning that it could be run off a normal car's battery if this kind of thing actually mattered to the market, meaning that it would have been added to ICE cars years ago if it did. Ergo, it's a gimmick.

As a car guy that's been fiddling with cars as a hobby with more mods, engine conversions, tune-ups and everything else you can imagine for 13 years and counting now (so, you know, someone that actually knows a thing or two about cars), I can assure you, anyone who buys an electric car because it can keep the floor mats cool when you park it in the sun for several hours (like an idiot) is an absolute moron.


This is _not _a selling feature, except to idiots.


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> If by that you mean that I think that anyone who buys an electric car because it has "cabin overheat protection" is an idiot, then yes.
> 
> This is _not _a selling feature, except to idiots.



Perhaps you should drive around yelling at the people that take the shaded car parks, telling them they are idiots for wanting their car shaded and cool because there is no benefit in it, because the first car parks to fill up are always the shaded ones, that shows a certain amount of people do think about their car cooking in the sun.

Hell the only reason I brought it up in the first place was because I was talking about the other car with the solar panels on it, and I said at least the solar panels would provide some charge to run your cooling if you have to park your car in the sun, I have never said its a selling point.

I don't think most people are aware of the feature until after the have bought the car and start looking through the settings, its not like it is advertised anywhere, its hidden in a setting menu some where.

But ask your self this, if you did own a brand new Tesla (or other electric car) which comes with the Cabin over heat protection switched to on as standard, would you purposely go and switch it off? or would you think it has some value to leave it on through our scorching Aussie summers to prevent you nice new car baking? go to any parking lot and you will see the shaded spaces are always the first parking spots to go, so people obviously think about their cars getting cooked.

as I said I think you maybe just don't see the value in it because you have never had it, I am not saying its something you buy a car for, I said it one of the million little bonuses you realise EV's have that are good ideas that


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

Over9K's next rant - The Evils of shade cloth in carparks and how people that park beneath them are idiots,....HAHAHA


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Alright so I'll try to be a bit more diplomatic here:


It isn't heat per se that ruins cars, it is _direct sunlight _which does it. Take a look at any old leather car and just take a look at the difference between the front seats and the rear seats. Now the front seats get more use and wear from that use, but take a look at the actual leather itself, not the wear points on the seat bolsters, but the actual leather itself. You'll see that there's an enormous difference in the leather between the front & rear of the car. You'll also see how things like the dashboard very often end up cracked whereas the door trims are absolutely fine, despite being made of the same stuff (leather, alcantara, plastic or otherwise).

So with that in mind, think about where the _sunlight _gets into a car, and then see how the more sunlight gets to a part, the more annihilated it is. You'll see how the rear footwells & door trims are the best, then the rear seats, then the front seats, then the dashboard will be the worst (assuming everything has the same trim). This is not a coincidence.

It is also _particularly _pronounced on cars with tinted windows as you have a vehicle in which the sunlight comes through the windscreen completely unfiltered but with an enormous amount of protection on all the other windows/glass areas of the car. The interior temperature is going to be sky high everywhere as the interior is so small, but the front of the car and the dashboard in particular is getting absolutely smashed by the sun.

This is also true of paintwork - simply being hot won't do a damn thing to a car's paint, but a significant amount of time in the sun will absolutely obliterate it. Even faster than it will ruin the interior. If I could park my car in an underground carpark on a 40 degree day vs park it in the sun on a 20 degree day, I'll take the underground carpark every single time.


The best thing you can ever do to protect a car's aesthetics/comfort is to simply not park it in the sun in the first place. That's it. Just don't do it. But if you have to, you need to do everything you can to keep the _sun _out of the car. Not the heat. The _sun. _

The first thing to do is get the windows tinted, which is a factory option on absolutely everything, ICE and EV's alike. Even ignoring this interior protection entirely, tinting the windows will make a massive heat difference to the vehicle just from a passenger comfort perspective. Modern UV films etc are extremely technologically advanced and block out far far more heat, UV rays etc (heat is well past 50%, UV rays are 100% like with sunglasses) than just the 35% light reduction they do. They are not a gimmick. I'd go so far as to say that on account of the sun danger (skin cancer rates etc) that this country has, _every _car should have tinted windows in Australia and they should actually be mandatory (standard) on every new car sold.

The next thing is to get one of those sun-reflecting dashboard protectors that you unfurl and mount up against the windshield. They look like this:




And you can obviously see how they work.



What I'm trying to say here is:

Don't go buying a tesla thinking that this "keeping the air conditioning running" feature will save your car's interior by "only" letting it get to 40 degrees if/when you leave it in the sun. It will not.

If you're thinking that buying a tesla with this feature will enable you to leave your car parked in the sun without ruining the interior like doing so will with an ICE car, you are mistaken. You will end up with a very rude surprise.

Like I said, if you absolutely _have _to leave your car parked in the sun then get the windows tinted (if they aren't already) and block the windshield off. That's all there is to it.

The other thing to do (especially if the windows are tinted, which they already should be completely irrespective of interior protection) is to park it so that the _rear _of the car is facing towards the sun (or where the sun will be) as you'll have either a tinted rear window blocking the rays or worst case, a much smaller rear window letting them in when compared with the windshield.

This seems like the simplest thing in the world, but you'd be amazed how many people just never even think of it.


Air conditioning _isn't _shade. They are _very_ different things.


----------



## basilio (18 January 2021)

VC follow up question regarding the internal temperature control on the Tesla.

Is there, to your knowledge, a back up plan if the cooling system fails, particularly if its in dog mode ? For example will the car send a message to the key fob or  connected IPhone to warn you that cooling has gone south ? Would the windows automatically crack open to ventilate the car in such a situation ? 

And also. Does this temperature control work to keep it warm? For example if it particularly chilly outside can the internal temperature be kept up to a reasonable level ?


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Alright so I'll try to be a bit more diplomatic here:
> 
> 
> It isn't heat per se that ruins cars, it is _direct sunlight _which does it.




No, you are wrong. its both light and heat, a main way light causes damage is because when the photons of light hit a surface it generates heat that builds up on the surface and over time breaks that surface down, keeping an area cool will minimise damage.

If you don't believe me here is an article from the western Australian museum about causes of deterioration.

*



			Deterioration
		
Click to expand...


*


> The principal agents of deterioration of textiles are:
> 
> light;
> *temperature* *and relative humidity*;
> ...






https://manual.museum.wa.gov.au/conservation-and-care-collections-2017/textiles/deterioration


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## over9k (18 January 2021)

Jesus christ I am arguing with reddit.

I never said that the air conditioning won't help, I said that the interior is still going to be wrecked by the sun anyway. I even made a very big point of explaining how the front (where the sun is) of a wrecked interior will be much worse than the rear (where the sun isn't) despite the air in the car being the same temperature and even mentioned the cooler but sunny vs hotter but shaded hypothetical. The main killer of the interior is sun, not heat. Ergo it is the _sun _that you need to deal with somehow. 

Simply cooling the interior will _not _be enough to protect it. If you think it will, you are in for a very rude surprise.


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> .
> 
> I never said that the air conditioning won't help, .



No, you just said people that use it are morons, and tried to make out having cabin over heat protection was crazy, which it clearly isn't.

I never said that sun visors won't help either, but if you are forced to park in the sun, why wouldn't you want to run cabin over heat protection? I mean if you have it why not use it, I'm obviously not saying avoid shady spots or sun visors, but in situations where you are forced to park in the sun, the cooling is going to help.

-------------------
This is my last post on this topic, all I will say is that I didn't promote over heat protection or say its a major selling point or cure all, I just said it exists, then you started flipping out saying its crazy and stupid and you can just idle your car etc etc.

My point stands, EV's batteries and electric driven cooling and heating mean they have simple ways to manage cabin temps that have benefits in a wide range of situations, which is just another one of the many slight benefits EV's that add up, no need to flip out about it, and I believe you would use it if your car had the function.

-------------------

Now should I mention that another slight benefit (not a selling point) is that EVs will also continue charging your phone even when the car is turned off,... no I won't because we all know you can just leave your ICE car idling or in accessories or some future ICE manufacturer could just build in that feature, and only idiots think thats a selling point anyway. hahahaha


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

basilio said:


> VC follow up question regarding the internal temperature control on the Tesla.
> 
> Is there, to your knowledge, a back up plan if the cooling system fails, particularly if its in dog mode ? For example will the car send a message to the key fob or  connected IPhone to warn you that cooling has gone south ? Would the windows automatically crack open to ventilate the car in such a situation ?
> 
> And also. Does this temperature control work to keep it warm? For example if it particularly chilly outside can the internal temperature be kept up to a reasonable level ?




I am not sure if it sends that message, but it might.

But you can check the temperature of the Car using your phone, and you can vent the windows using the phone.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Right so there's so much to that that is clearly a waste of my time but this bit here is really emblematic of the whole thing:


Value Collector said:


> Now should I mention that another slight benefit (not a selling point) is that EVs will also continue charging your phone even when the car is turned off,... no I won't because we all no you can just leave your ICE car idling or in accessories or some future ICE manufacturer could just build in that feature, and only idiots think thats a selling point anyway. hahahaha




When has anyone, ever, in all of smartphone history, not taken their phone with them when they've parked their car and gone to do whatever? People want to have their phones on them so much that they'll carry a charging brick around rather than just leave it behind. Even ignoring that, they'll bring the flat phone with them simply out of theft paranoia.

In other words, if your phone is flat, you don't leave it in the car, you plug it into a charging brick and bring the whole lot with you so you can still use the thing at the cafe or restaurant or wherever you're going. Hell, you bring it with you even if you _don't _have a charging brick so that nobody can pinch it. 

Nobody (with a brain) is _ever _going to use this feature. 



Just imagine the conversation in the restaurant: 

"Hey wife X, send friend Y a message and see how far away they are"

"I can't, my phone's in the car charging" 

"Oh... Wait, you don't have a charging brick?" 


You can see how stupid leaving your phone in the car to charge vs just bringing a charging brick with you is now, right? 



You're clearly just looking at these features and going "oh well they're cool" without actually thinking about their use or not. Leaving your phone in the car to charge is simply something that nobody with a brain would ever do, same as I would never park my car in the direct sun on a searing 40 degree day for any significant period of time, and once it's in the shade, the actual temperature of the interior itself is a virtual irrelevance because it isn't heat that kills interiors. 

It was the same with the whole "park & charge with the solar panels" thing - seemed cool until a bit of thought was actually put into it and everyone realised how little power solar panels actually capture, why would you pay more for that power than your own wall socket at home (as the shopping centre would just use it itself otherwise), etc etc. 

These "features" you're talking about are solutions in search of problems. There's lots of reasons to buy an electric vehicle, but these aren't it.


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> When has anyone, ever, in all of smartphone history, not taken their phone with them when they've parked their car and gone to do whatever? People want to have their phones on them so much that they'll carry a charging brick around rather than just leave it behind. Even ignoring that, they'll bring the flat phone with them simply out of theft paranoia.




Well here is a true funny story that shows thats not true... actually just 2 days ago I was mowing the grass at some units that I own, and my phone battery went dead.

So I put my phone in the car to charge while I finished mowing and watering, Then about 15 minutes later I hear the Teslas horn honk, turns out my wife was trying to call me and obviously I wasn't answering the phone, so she checked the location of the Tesla, Knew I was mowing the lawn nearby and she used her app to honk the horn, which alerted me to the fact she was probably trying to call and I went back to the car where my phone now had charged a bit saw her missed call and messages, and called her.

So again, just another little benefit of the over all package that it probably over looked until you are living with it, I was able to charge the phone, without the phone overheating in the car, and my wife could still indirectly communicate with me.



> same as I would never park my car in the direct sun on a searing 40 degree day for any significant period of time




The temperature can be under 30 and the interior of the car will still soar well over 60, but you do you, I think others would clearly see the benefits I have explained, no point continuing the convocation with you.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Well here is a true funny story that shows thats not true... actually just 2 days ago I was mowing the grass at some units that I own, and my phone battery went dead.
> 
> So I put my phone in the car to charge while I finished mowing and watering, Then about 15 minutes later I hear the Teslas horn honk, turns out my wife was trying to call me and obviously I wasn't answering the phone, so she checked the location of the Tesla, Knew I was mowing the lawn nearby and she used her app to honk the horn, which alerted me to the fact she was probably trying to call and I went back to the car where my phone now had charged a bit saw her missed call and messages, and called her.
> 
> So again, just another little benefit of the over all package that it probably over looked until you are living with it, I was able to charge the phone, without the phone overheating in the car, and my wife could still indirectly communicate with me.



See, you've proven my point.

If you'd put the phone on a charging brick in your pocket you could have just answered it immediately rather than going through all that dicking about.


> The temperature can be under 30 and the interior of the car will still soar well over 60, but you do you, I think others would clearly see the benefits I have explained, no point continuing the convocation with you.




Nope, park the car out of the sun and the car will be the exact same temperature as the air as there's no other heat source.

We're arguing about thermodynamics. It's not a matter of opinion, you're just wrong.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> I don't understand the point of "cabin overheat mode" when no person or dog is in the car. What is the point? To make the floor mats more comfortable?



There's a definite point for those who are in and out of a car all day for work purposes and for whom the car is their office and lunch room as well as being a mode of transport.

Been there, done that sort of work in the past. If it was miserably cold or raining then used to idle the engine so as to run the heater whilst having lunch - only trouble is by the time it warmed up it was time to go back to work.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's a definite point for those who are in and out of a car all day for work purposes and for whom the car is their office and lunch room as well as being a mode of transport.
> 
> Been there, done that sort of work in the past. If it was miserably cold or raining then used to idle the engine so as to run the heater whilst having lunch - only trouble is by the time it warmed up it was time to go back to work.



Right, and that's exactly what I was saying before - handy for that kind of thing. Fire it up ten mins before you're going to get into the vehicle (or whatever) and have a comfy place to be for lunch or the drive home or whatever. 

But that's a very different thing to maintaining a particular interior temperature for hours on end like the car's a fridge (not that fridges run at 40 degrees) or something.


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Nope, park the car out of the sun and the car will be the exact same temperature as the air as there's no other heat source.
> 
> .



we are talking about parking in the sun. if you park your car in the sun on even a mild day the cabin temp soars.


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's a definite point for those who are in and out of a car all day for work purposes and for whom the car is their office and lunch room as well as being a mode of transport.
> 
> Been there, done that sort of work in the past. If it was miserably cold or raining then used to idle the engine so as to run the heater whilst having lunch - only trouble is by the time it warmed up it was time to go back to work.




This police department mention not having to idle the engine during police work that requires the car to be stationary with a cop in it for long periods as one of the benefits of using a Tesla as a police car.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> we are talking about parking in the sun. if you park your car in the sun on even a mild day the cabin temp soars.



Yeah, and it is the sun that wrecks the interior, not the heat, making cooling the interior pointless. I don't know how much plainer I can put it.


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Yeah, and it is the sun that wrecks the interior, not the heat, making cooling the interior pointless. I don't know how much plainer I can put it.




Google does heat effect leather.

I won’t discuss this with you any further, you are growing tiresome, in fact you might end up blocked.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Let me ask you something VC: 

In a car parked in the sun, what percentage difference to interior damage do you think a 40 degree interior makes compared to a 60 degree one?


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

considering your iPhone will stop functioning at around 40 degrees, and put up an emergency notification telling you to cool it down, what effect do you think allowing your car to rise over 60 degrees and heading to 100 degrees will have on the ever increasing amount of electronics and sensors cars have?

I have had this message when I left my phone in my old commodore in the drive way.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 January 2021)

Being your average chump, I would think it would be easier and cheaper to have internal sunvisors/curtains that you can easily roll out in the sun along with photochromic glass rather than having an electric cooler operating.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

Shh rumpole, you'll shatter his il(de)lusion.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Shh rumpole, you'll shatter his il(de)lusion.




Well, he owns an ev so whatever works for him I guess.

To me, the more parts move, the more wear and tear there is.


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Being your average chump, I would think it would be easier and cheaper to have internal sunvisors/curtains that you can easily roll out in the sun along with photochromic glass rather than having an electric cooler operating.




Tesla make those to, and you can do what even other strategy you want eg look for shade etc, but if all else fails or you forget to put your sun shade up and the cars temp rises they fans and ac kick in.

and as I said if you have a dog, and elderly parent or a cheese cake you want to protect for a little while then the being able to run the ac with out running a 3 Litre engine is handy.


----------



## Value Collector (18 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> To me, the more parts move, the more wear and tear there is.




You mean like an ICE engine, a small electric motor isn't moving many parts, compared to an Ice cars engine.


----------



## basilio (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Shh rumpole, you'll shatter his il(de)lusion.



Don't be rude! 
Talk about dying in a ditch ... for what exactly ?  I have to say I have been at a loss to understand your doggedness at demeaning the value/point of the cool car cooling system for Tesla.  No one is saying it is a game changer or anything. Just  clever and potentially useful in some situations.

I mean you generally write useful, interesting comment and this surprises me .


----------



## sptrawler (18 January 2021)

basilio said:


> Don't be rude!
> Talk about dying in a ditch ... for what exactly ?  I have to say I have been at a loss to understand your doggedness at demeaning the value/point of the cool car cooling system for Tesla.  No one is saying it is a game changer or anything. Just  clever and potentially useful in some situations.
> 
> I mean you generally write useful, interesting comment and this surprises me .



A little forceful, but I agree with the sentiment.

IMO the move to BEV is inevitable, so the more user sensible additions supplied at the start, reduces the chance of an increase in price at a later date, if the manufacturers want to charge extra for them.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

basilio said:


> Don't be rude!
> Talk about dying in a ditch ... for what exactly ?  I have to say I have been at a loss to understand your doggedness at demeaning the value/point of the cool car cooling system for Tesla.  No one is saying it is a game changer or anything. Just  clever and potentially useful in some situations.
> 
> I mean you generally write useful, interesting comment and this surprises me .



I tried being diplomatic, made a very deliberate point of saying I was trying to be diplomatic, and made a great big post about shade vs cooling and gave everyone some very simple, easy to follow advice on protecting your car's interior, and just look at the posts he made after.


----------



## sptrawler (18 January 2021)

Looks like not only the European Tesla's, but also the Australian RHD Tesla's might be coming out of China, making the U.S great again?








						Tesla Model 3 order page update hints at China-made electric car
					

Tesla updates Model 3 order page hinting China-made Model 3 will come to Australia, including possible Long Range variant.




					thedriven.io
				




Sounds like business as usual.


----------



## frugal.rock (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Yeah, and it is the sun that wrecks the interior, not the heat, making cooling the interior pointless. I don't know how much plainer I can put it.



I would say the sun damages yes, I would consider all the plastics in cars and consider that these are made from oil.
Why is the optimum coffee making temp around 75°c ?
So you don't lose the volatile oils that taste good, apparently.
Same goes for car interiors heating up, expanding, cooling down, contracting.
The volatiles slowly make there way out.
A moot point.


----------



## sptrawler (18 January 2021)

over9k said:


> I tried being diplomatic, made a very deliberate point of saying I was trying to be diplomatic, and made a great big post about shade vs cooling and gave everyone some very simple, easy to follow advice on protecting your car's interior, and just look at the posts he made after.



Mate it is a bit like King Canute up to his goolies in the sea, telling the sea to turn back, BEV's are inevitable socially, politically and financially whether they make sense doesn't come into it.
You want to bang your head against a wall, knock yourself out, personally I would suggest you just keep buying NIO.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 January 2021)

basilio said:


> I have to say I have been at a loss to understand your doggedness at demeaning the value/point of the cool car cooling system for Tesla. No one is saying it is a game changer or anything. Just clever and potentially useful in some situations.



The average Australian is, according to statistics, 37 years old.

OK, let's go back 37 years which brings us to 1984.

In 1984 in the context of new cars being sold at that time:

Almost all ran on leaded petrol, the exceptions being the odd random Diesel from Europe of which there were very few sold and anyone who converted to LPG which was mostly taxis. For the rest, it was a case of filling it up with either Standard (89 RON) or Super (96 RON) both of which were leaded.

There were no emissions controls of any note. Every car spewed out carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons, both of which are human health hazards, along with the lead which is a neurotoxin. 

Apply the brakes and the driver behind gets to inhale a nice cloud of asbestos dust. Yep, every car on the road emitted asbestos in normal use and its presence was readily detectable in the air (some tests were done once in Hobart and the level found was alarming - no prizes for guessing what it was like in Sydney).

Did not have air-conditioning. It existed but in practice was for rich people. For most cars it was an optional extra which added significantly to the price or was not available at all. It also seriously sapped the engine power.

Did not have power steering. Yes you young ones - turning the wheel used to require quite a bit more physical effort. Modern cars are dead easy to drive in comparison.

Had no safety features of any kind other than seat belts and head rests. No airbags, no crumple zones, no warning systems, nothing. 

Definitely did not have ABS brakes indeed at that point drum brakes were still around on many cars especially for the rear.

Might have had an early electronic fuel injection system but fair chance it was still a carb.

In car electronics consisted of an AM/FM radio and, depending on the car, a cassette player.

Window winders - remember those? In every car back then. Crank the handle manually yes.

Central locking? Nope.

Theft? Dead easy given that pretty much no car came standard with any sort of security system. At least you couldn't lose the key fob. Couldn't lose it because there wasn't one.

Cost far more relative to average wages than a comparable car does today. 

Used roughly twice as much fuel as a comparable car does today meaning that petrol prices were a common lament of the average person struggling to afford the cost. 

Required routine replacement of parts. Exhausts in particular were a big enough problem that even regional cities had multiple businesses which did nothing other than exhausts. It was all that sulfur in the fuel you see, forms sulfuric acid and rusts the absolute crap out of everything.

Was gutless in terms of engine power to the point that trying to drive at the speed limit up a hill was a valid performance test. A current model V6 Toyota Camry, not exactly what most would see as a high performance car, is in fact more powerful than actual purpose built race cars were a generation ago. 

And so on.

Cars have improved dramatically in half a human lifetime and looking back, what was state of the art back then was an uncomfortable, unreliable, toxic and expensive death trap compared to even the most basic modern vehicle. 

Now the thing is, I can actually recall people making arguments against most of those improvements when they were first introduced.

Good drivers don't need safety systems they said. Never mind that crashes do occur in practice.

There's no need for air-conditioning anywhere other than a long way north of Brisbane they said.

Real men don't need power steering they said, that's only for ladies' cars and even they could do without it.

Outright denial over the health effects of CO, HC and Pb emissions even though the air in Australian cities was visibly filthy compared to today and overwhelming evidence existed that the entire planet was being contaminated as a consequence of adding tetraethyllead to petrol.

And now we're at he point of further progress, this time with a switch from petrol to electricity as the power source. As with all the other progress, someone will look back at a future time and shake their head in amazement at the suggestion anyone would have opposed it.


----------



## sptrawler (18 January 2021)

Another interesting thing that is happening, there will be a huge reclassification of the auto electrician trade IMO.
Motor mechanics will have to adapt and retrain as auto electricians, or face being at centerlink in 20years.
@Smurf1976 , the other thing that may well happen, as happened with the instrument trade, the electrical trade may well swallow it up.
The voltages the cars work on, could well make it in the realm of an unrestricted electrical license IMO.


----------



## over9k (18 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Mate it is a bit like King Canute up to his goolies in the sea, telling the sea to turn back, BEV's are inevitable socially, politically and financially whether they make sense doesn't come into it.
> You want to bang your head against a wall, knock yourself out, personally I would suggest you just keep buying NIO.



I've never said otherwise though. I even said that there's tons of reasons to buy EV's, just not this one.




sptrawler said:


> Another interesting thing that is happening, there will be a huge reclassification of the auto electrician trade IMO.
> Motor mechanics will have to adapt and retrain as auto electricians, or face being at centerlink in 20years.
> @Smurf1976 , the other thing that may well happen, as happened with the instrument trade, the electrical trade may well swallow it up.
> The voltages the cars work on, could well make it in the realm of an unrestricted electrical license IMO.




I was actually thinking this just today. Is mechanic going to be a dead profession in 20 years?


----------



## qldfrog (19 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, he owns an ev so whatever works for him I guess.
> 
> To me, the more parts move, the more wear and tear there is.



And the more breaking setting adjusting.
That is actually supposed to be a selling point of ev, simpler..


----------



## qldfrog (19 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The average Australian is, according to statistics, 37 years old.
> 
> OK, let's go back 37 years which brings us to 1984.
> 
> ...



No one should oppose it, just do not force and stop BS like it is better for the environment etc.
There are enough real advantages without the need for government intervention.
If i had money to waste, yep, i could by a new car but i do not want need to.
And when I genuinely need to purchase new vehicles: a tractor and a farm buggy in the last 2 months, there was no proper EV offer.
The buggy especially pissed me off as this is a perfect application of EV.
As of today, EV is not a proper option in australia.and it is not the few Tesla sold here and there at 3 times the cost of other cars which can change that.


----------



## basilio (19 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The average Australian is, according to statistics, 37 years old.
> 
> OK, let's go back 37 years which brings us to 1984.
> 
> ...



 Great piece of perspective Smurf .  Certainly highlights just how much cars have improved  in so many ways in our  living memory.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 January 2021)

qldfrog said:


> No one should oppose it, just do not force



I'm certainly not proposing that EV's be forced on consumers under present circumstances. For the record even the power industry doesn't have a 100% EV passenger vehicle fleet, not even close at present though most have at least one.

That said, ultimately there's a wider community consideration. I'd argue that it was entirely reasonable to prohibit the sale of new vehicles using petrol containing tetraethyllead and to require the fitting of catalytic converters for example given that the technology was available at modest cost and there was clear evidence of a community wide problem. 

Likewise I'd argue that it's reasonable to require that all new cars meet a minimum safety standard in order to be used on public roads since there's an impact far beyond the original purchaser.

In both cases, leaded petrol and safety, there's never been any requirement to stop using an existing car so long as it's properly maintained and nor should there be. The fleet turns over in due course anyway so just let it occur naturally.

At some point going forward I fully expect that ICE cars will be much like CRT TV's or VHS tapes. Not banned but simply not wanted anymore by anyone apart from a few with a genuine interest in restoring and preserving old technology as a hobby.


----------



## Value Collector (19 January 2021)

over9k said:


> I was actually thinking this just today. Is mechanic going to be a dead profession in 20 years?




There are still some people who re-shoe horses, 
Just not as many as there used to be.

changing tyres and working on steering racks, wheel bearings will still exist.


----------



## sptrawler (19 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> changing tyres and working on steering racks, wheel bearings will still exist.



They really aren't trades though. 

The maintenance schedule on a BEV, will be a lot less than that required for ICE vehicles, not only will the number of workers required diminish the amount of spin off work will reduce hugely e.g exhaust shops, radiator repair shops, brake component shops.
Electric motors are usually overhauled on a time based maintenance plan, rather than a distance covered basis. The main issue is the cleaning and replacing of bearing grease that usually runs into several years as opposed to several months with ICE oil changes.
Possibly the motors could be fitted with vibration monitoring, which would not be difficult and could result in the motor never requiring attention.


----------



## over9k (19 January 2021)

No doubt about that at all - ICE engines will be a purely hobby thing like old cars are now.


----------



## qldfrog (19 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm certainly not proposing that EV's be forced on consumers under present circumstances. For the record even the power industry doesn't have a 100% EV passenger vehicle fleet, not even close at present though most have at least one.
> 
> That said, ultimately there's a wider community consideration. I'd argue that it was entirely reasonable to prohibit the sale of new vehicles using petrol containing tetraethyllead and to require the fitting of catalytic converters for example given that the technology was available at modest cost and there was clear evidence of a community wide problem.
> 
> ...



Europe and soon US  declarations of banning ICE by 2035 (or you name the year ) are sadly a force move, all in line with removing freedom of the individuals while the 0.1% can afford the individual EV, the others will share taxis and self driving ubers and be told it is a societal advance...while dying from virus/vaccine exposure, crime and being treated like a consumption unit in an industrial chookhouse with restricted travel zones etc
make no mistake, it is a plan, call it the Reset as officially branded or 1984/brazil for the fews who are litterate.
Progress is good, but not always the use of it.EV are great, not the purpose behind the push


----------



## SirRumpole (19 January 2021)

qldfrog said:


> *Europe and soon US  declarations of banning ICE by 2035 (or you name the year )* are sadly a force move, all in line with removing freedom of the individuals while the 0.1% can afford the individual EV, the others will share taxis and self driving ubers and be told it is a societal advance...while dying from virus/vaccine exposure, crime and being treated like a consumption unit in an industrial chookhouse with restricted travel zones etc
> make no mistake, it is a plan, call it the Reset as officially branded or 1984/brazil for the fews who are litterate.
> Progress is good, but not always the use of it.EV are great, not the purpose behind the push




I'd be interested to know if any of the governments introducing enforcement plans for EV's on private citizens have published plans to electrify their own government car fleets ?

Why is Boris Johnson still riding around in a petrol powered Jaguar instead of a Tesla ?

It's up to leaders to lead not tell the public what to do.


----------



## basilio (19 January 2021)

over9k said:


> No doubt about that at all - ICE engines will be a purely hobby thing like old cars are now.




And even in that concept I reckon there is a strong possibility that many older/classic cars will end up beng converted to electricty. People can enjoy the classic feel and look but have a strong, smooth silent reliable drive train.

I know there are specialists workshops which are already doing this. VW beetles/Combis in particular are relatively simple changeovers and offer an outstanding improvement in performance and comfort.









						Volkswagen expands electric classic offering
					

Pure-electric conversion kits set to be offered for original Beetle, classic Golf, The Thing and the Karmann Ghia coupe and convertible, suggest new trademarks




					www.carsales.com.au
				











						A guide to converting your old car to electric
					

Converting a conventionally powered car to run on electricity alone is a bit of a hot-button topic right now.




					www.carsguide.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (19 January 2021)

basilio said:


> And even in that concept I reckon there is a strong possibility that many older/classic cars will end up beng converted to electricty. People can enjoy the classic feel and look but have a strong, smooth silent reliable drive train.
> 
> I know there are specialists workshops which are already doing this. VW beetles/Combis in particular are relatively simple changeovers and offer an outstanding improvement in performance and comfort.
> 
> ...




A classic car converted to an EV is no longer classic.

They only have curiosity value, price appreciation would cease.


----------



## basilio (19 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> A classic car converted to an EV is no longer classic.
> 
> They only have curiosity value, price appreciation would cease.




Maybe. I spend a little time following the ups and down of  "investing"  in classic cars. I think that restorations of older cars have become more relaxed in terms of total authenticity versus updating of known problems and dodgy parts. People have to want to drive these cars as well.

I'm aware of at least a couple of companies that offer to turn old Jags into  EV s to make them more powerful and reliable.  The motor is kept to enable a conversion back to its original condition if the owner wants to go that way. 

I couldn't see a GTHO being turned electric and holding its value.  But others ? Be interesting to see how the market develops.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 January 2021)

basilio said:


> Maybe. I spend a little time following the ups and down of  "investing"  in classic cars. I think that restorations of older cars have become more relaxed in terms of total authenticity versus updating of known problems and dodgy parts. People have to want to drive these cars as well.
> 
> I'm aware of at least a couple of companies that offer to turn old Jags into  EV s to make them more powerful and reliable.  The motor is kept to enable a conversion back to its original condition if the owner wants to go that way.
> 
> I couldn't see a GTHO being turned electric and holding its value.  But others ? Be interesting to see how the market develops.




I suppose the attraction is driving your beetle up beside a Porsche and blowing it into the dust.

That might be worth the conversion cost.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 January 2021)

So far as classic cars are concerned, it won't matter either way.

There's just not enough of them, being driven enough km, to matter.

Just as it doesn't matter that there's the odd random tourist steam train still running (using coal or heavy fuel oil) and stuff like that. Just not enough to be a problem worth worrying about.

Same with two stroke lawnmowers and so on, anyone suggesting something needs to be done to stop the use of those already built could fairly be accused of virtue signaling as there's just not going to be enough of them left by the time anyone could ban them to be worth doing so. It's also a huge waste of materials to be throwing away otherwise still usable equipment so it doesn't even stack up environmentally.

If someone in the year 2050 has a running 1975 Kingswood and a Victa 2 stroke mower then no problem since neither will be even slightly common at that point. Both will be seen as a novelty far more than a problem.


----------



## Value Collector (19 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> They really aren't trades though.
> 
> The maintenance schedule on a BEV, will be a lot less than that required for ICE vehicles, not only will the number of workers required diminish the amount of spin off work will reduce hugely e.g exhaust shops, radiator repair shops




Yep, just like a dozens of industries before it the vehicle maintenance industry will diminish in size, and the dollars consumers would normally direct towards it will be spent else where, creating jobs and capital investment opportunities.

80% of people used to be employed in agriculture, now 1% is and we all live better because those 79% of the work that was freed up by the introduction of farming tech can now be employed in other industries.


----------



## Value Collector (19 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Why is Boris Johnson still riding around in a petrol powered Jaguar instead of a Tesla ?




British pride, maybe he should get the EV Jag.


----------



## over9k (19 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> So far as classic cars are concerned, it won't matter either way.
> 
> There's just not enough of them, being driven enough km, to matter.
> 
> ...



Exactly. Same as old cars now. This is a total non-discussion.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> At some point going forward I fully expect that ICE cars will be much like CRT TV's or VHS tapes. Not banned but simply not wanted anymore by anyone apart from a few with a genuine interest in restoring and preserving old technology as a hobby.




And as investments.

Do you know much a Ford Falcon GTHO Phase III is worth ?

Try over $1,000,000.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> And as investments.
> 
> Do you know much a Ford Falcon GTHO Phase III is worth ?
> 
> Try over $1,000,000.



The problem with old collectable cars is they are very generation specific, so not only will the classic cars that our generation loved drop in value as we age, they will become increasingly uninteresting to the younger generation who will be more into "connected" BEV's.
Just my opinion.









						Is the classic car market tanking?
					

We investigate whether the bubble has burst on classic car investments




					www.whichcar.com.au


----------



## over9k (20 January 2021)

Yeah but think about what's going to be a classic in the future. 

R34 GT-R's are an excellent example - they've doubled in price just in the past few years. I can only imagine what a clean V-spec is going to be worth in 2030 or 2040.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with old collectable cars is they are very generation specific, so not only will the classic cars that our generation loved drop in value as we age, they will become increasingly uninteresting to the younger generation who will be more into "connected" BEV's.
> Just my opinion.
> 
> 
> ...




You don't need to be interested in art to buy a painting as an investment, same with any collectable, if it goes up in value over time people will be interested.

I'm not saying your standard 1995 Commodore will be worth keeping but anything with low model runs or something quirky about them will be worth holding on to.


----------



## basilio (20 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with old collectable cars is they are very generation specific, so not only will the classic cars that our generation loved drop in value as we age, they will become increasingly uninteresting to the younger generation who will be more into "connected" BEV's.
> Just my opinion.
> 
> 
> ...




Your observation and the article you posted was very insightful. Long story short the article  was about the softening of  classic cars as purely investment opportunities. Essentially people believing that if they pick up a genuine GTHO (or similar ) for 500k this year and garage it carefully, it will be worth $1m k in a few years time basically tax free.  How long that continues is questionable. Those will long memories will recall the philatelic  investment bubble of the seventies and eighties.

Its obviously true that from an emissions POV classic cars put out bugger all because
1) There are very few of them
2) They spend almost all their lives in climate controlled garages
In fact almost all their emissions will be from maintenance activities !

From what I can see there is a significant market in restoration and mechanical/technological upgrades of classic cars like Jags. I could see this trend spreading to older Mercs as well perhaps? To date the updates have been around electricals, heating/cooling,  better gearboxes, upgraded brakes and handling, quality sound systems. These are all discreetly integrated into an immaculately restored body that is effectively a bespoke 21st Century car in a 20th century shell.  

At what stage this upgrade goes electric  is interesting.  The cost of these vehicles would parallel the new cost of a current luxury car.  But after all that is  exactly what it is.









						Jaguar E-Type upgrades: how E-Type UK transforms British icon into capable modern driver | Automotive World
					

One of the most iconic and beautiful cars of all time, the Jaguar E-Type is a hugely desirable model for classic vehicle enthusiasts and lovers of the




					www.automotiveworld.com
				











						British firm converts old Jaguars and Rolls-Royces to electric power
					

The British startup Lunaz Design will soon offer EV conversions for the 1953 Jaguar KX120 and 1961 Rolls-Royce Phantom V.




					www.motorauthority.com
				











						These companies will convert your classic into an EV
					

Combine style and gasoline-free motoring with one of these professionally swapped electrics




					driving.ca
				











						Why This Electric Rolls-Royce Phantom V By Lunaz Is The New Age Of Post-Opulence Luxury
					

Rolls-Royce by Lunaz is a collection of 1961 Rolls-Royce Phantom V and Silver Cloud cars, re-engineered for zero-emission battery-electric drive and restored with sustainable luxury materials




					www.forbes.com


----------



## basilio (20 January 2021)

I think this concept is what 'rich old guys" might get excited about when it comes to remembering their youth and the classic cars they dreamed about.








						The Story Behind Icon And Its Unique Retro-Modernist Design Approach
					

With retro-modernist cars having quite a renaissance, I catch up with Icon 4x4 founder Jonathan Ward to learn more about the Los Angeles firm's unique approach to preserving the soul of classic cars




					www.forbes.com
				











						Putting the range in the classic Range Rover - Lunaz EV conversions
					

Lunaz turns its electric conversion and restoration skills towards the classic Range Rover, alongside Rolls-Royce and Jaguar-based EVs



					www.carmagazine.co.uk


----------



## basilio (20 January 2021)

Last post. Just for those interested in upgrading their venerable old British banger..




__





						KWE offers full or part restoration, renewal or upgrading of your own XJS, Aston Martin DB7 or Jaguar/Daimler XJ Series 1/2/3
					

KWE offers full or part restoration, renewal or upgrading of your own XJS, Aston Martin DB7 or Jaguar/Daimler XJ Series 1/2/3



					www.kwecars.com


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2021)

Back on thread, a company based in Israel, have developed an XFC (extreme fast charging battery), which has the potential to reduce BEV charging times to 5 minutes.








						StoreDot One Step Closer to Eliminating EV Charging & Range Anxiety with Launch of First Ever '5-Minute Charge' Li-ion Battery Samples
					

StoreDot, the pioneer of extreme fast charging (XFC) battery technology, today announces the availability of its first-generation 5-minute charge battery engineering samples. This represents a significant milestone for the company in its mission to eliminate the range and charging anxiety of...




					finance.yahoo.com
				



From the article:

*Milestone announcement proves the commercial viability of StoreDot's extreme fast charging battery technology utilizing nano-scale metalloids and proprietary compounds

- Sample availability provides major proof point of StoreDot's ability to scale its technology within existing lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery manufacturing lines for mass production

- Launch paves the way for the introduction of StoreDot's second-generation, silicon-dominant prototype battery for electric vehicles later this year*


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> You don't need to be interested in art to buy a painting as an investment, same with any collectable, if it goes up in value over time people will be interested.




There still have to be a large number of people with a genuine interest in the collectible willing to pay a high price for it, other wise the speculator won’t be able to sell it when he was to cash in his investment.

If it turns out all the “investors” buying a collectable are just speculators wanting to make money, then it is just a bubble that will pop eventually.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2021)

basilio said:


> Your observation and the article you posted was very insightful. Long story short the article  was about the softening of  classic cars as purely investment opportunities. Essentially people believing that if they pick up a genuine GTHO (or similar ) for 500k this year and garage it carefully, it will be worth $1m k in a few years time basically tax free.  How long that continues is questionable. Those will long memories will recall the philatelic  investment bubble of the seventies and eighties.
> 
> Its obviously true that from an emissions POV classic cars put out bugger all because
> 1) There are very few of them
> ...




yeah, there is no problem with having a classic cars on the roads for Sunday drives, little pieces of living history are great foreveryone that sees them, but let’s work towards getting the millions of daily drives onto cleaner tech.

——————

As a kid (and probably now too) I loved seeing a vintage steam engine train roll through town billowing smoke and steam as the pistons cycle all the mechanics and drove the wheels, and I loved visiting the old steam power lumber mill that the local historical society fired up once a month,with is huge flywheel turning driving all the equipment,  it’s a great history lesson and really sets your imagination on fire.


----------



## basilio (20 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Back on thread, a company based in Israel, have developed an XFC (extreme fast charging battery), which has the potential to reduce BEV charging times to 5 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes good story indeed. I read it in more detail on another site and it seems it's widespread commercial availability will be around 2025. I suspect there will be other similar  fast charging batteries also in production by the. Talga proved similar results with its Talga X anode in 2018 and is developing it commercially.

_We are on-track to launch samples of our EV batteries by the end of 2021, with full commercialisation of the technology expected in 2024-25. For the first couple of years we are most likely going to have to add 10-15 per cent to price. Over time as we scale, we should hit the same costs and the same cost curve reduction as we’ve seen with today’s EV batteries, because the supply chain should improve. _





__





						Ultra-fast charging batteries and the cure for EV charge anxiety
					

Doron Myersdorf, CEO of StoreDot, tells Intelligent Transport how a unique approach to battery technology could reduce EV charging times.




					www.intelligenttransport.com
				











						Talga Resources : Anode Enables Ultra-Fast Charge Battery | MarketScreener
					

the efficiency with which the battery components can be packed in a given volume.                                                                   Pouch cell                                          ... | May 27,  2022



					www.marketscreener.com


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> As a kid (and probably now too) I loved seeing a vintage steam engine train roll through town billowing smoke and steam as the pistons cycle all the mechanics and drove the wheels, and I loved visiting the old steam power lumber mill that the local historical society fired up once a month,with is huge flywheel turning driving all the equipment, it’s a great history lesson and really sets your imagination on fire.




So you have just demonstrated that you don't have to have been involved in an era to be interested in its history and its artifacts and maybe even investing in objects from that era.

That will keep the investment industry in collectables alive.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So you have just demonstrated that you don't have to have been involved in an era to be interested in its history and its artifacts and maybe even investing in objects from that era.
> 
> That will keep the investment industry in collectables alive.




Offcourse not, I am sure some guys still are fascinated by model T fords.

But, I do think Sp is correct and that a lot of demand for collector cars comes from older guys that are now rich enough to afford that car they wanted when they 18, and so a lot of the demand will die off with that generation.

some demand will still exist, but will it be enough to push the sale prices to ever higher highs? I don’t know, and I personally would play that game.

I am happy enough to watch these things drive past, without buying, Maintaining and insuring them myself.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> some demand will still exist, *but will it be enough to push the sale prices to ever higher highs? *I don’t know, and I personally would play that game.




No it won't, but that's just another example of greed and overreach in any investment, whether it is shares, property, commodities or collectibles. There are regular booms and busts in any area , shakeouts happen and the market settles down to what people are willing to pay at the current point in time.

Winners and losers as there always have been.

Incidentally, you don't have to actually drive classic cars, a lot of people just lock them up in a shed for years or rent them to a museum and just give them a clean up when they want to sell.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> There still have to be a *large number* of people with a genuine interest in the collectible willing to pay a high price for it




Not necessarily, just a small number of very rich people who want to get one up on the rest. 

Anyway, we are getting a bit off topic, there is already a thread for collectibles.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No it won't, but that's just another example of greed and overreach in any investment, whether it is shares, property, commodities or collectibles. There are regular booms and busts in any area , shakeouts happen and the market settles down to what people are willing to pay at the current point in time.
> 
> Winners and losers as there always have been.




the difference between collectables and other stuff like shares and property, is that with collectables you rely on another person to buy it from you to generate your return, and the thing hasn’t grown or multiplied, so you need the demand to grow, not stay the same or shrink.

but with shares and property the underlying assets themselves generate your return.

for example a family could have owned block of Coca-Cola shares, or an apartment building in London etc for 100 years and never sold it and not plan on selling it in the next 100 years but it will generate investment income, because the assets themselves are generating the return.

where as collectables are fickle, they cost money to own, and you have to hope they is someone willing to buy it when you eventually need to buy bread, I don’t class these things as investments, and they are speculation.

not that there is anything wrong with speculation, it’s just a different thing to investing.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Not necessarily, just a small number of very rich people who want to get one up on the rest.



When all the boomers are dead and dying and their family and selling their stuff, you have to have an equal number of rich youngsters willing and able to soak up the supply, a rich might want one 1971 falcon, but he probably doesn’t want 10.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> When all the boomers are dead and dying and their family and selling their stuff, you have to have an equal number of rich youngsters willing and able to soak up the supply, a rich might want one 1971 falcon, but he probably doesn’t want 10.




Of course not, but rarity is the value.









						Rare Ford Falcon GTHO Phase IV fetches record sum
					

Extremely rare muscle car breaks the $2 million barrier




					www.motoring.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course not, but rarity is the value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




only if enough people want it, so that demand outweighs supply, and competing bids push prices up.

Buy it if owning it will bring you Joy, but just don’t buy it as an investment, you may make money, but treat that as a possible bonus.


----------



## over9k (20 January 2021)

Meanwhile, the follow-on effect of electric cars that people DIDN'T think about (me included):




Hits an all-time high. We all thought of batteries, and a few people thought of copper on account of the wires & electric motors, but it's microchips that have really screamed lately. 

Question is, is there anything else that's gone over everybody's heads that we can grab some of before the crowd realises?


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> When all the boomers are dead and dying and their family and selling their stuff, you have to have an equal number of rich youngsters willing and able to soak up the supply, a rich might want one 1971 falcon, but he probably doesn’t want 10.



My last comment on the issue, as it is causing the thread to drift.
I bought a 1970 Mini Cooper S, rebuilt the motor and gearbox etc, paid $5k thought I'll never loose on this. Long story short when I sold it I started at $15k, ended up getting $5k.
On the subject of generation specific, a good friend of mine had a 1930's Chev tourer he fully restored and used it as a wedding car, when he came to sell it $15k.
As you say VC, only so many people want an old car.
You hit the sweet spot, with the right car and the right timing and you make a killing. But it is a bit of a pass the parcel situation, someone ends up with it, whether they want it or not.
Here is a car worth watching IMO, our fathers hero car, lets see where the prices are in 5 years.




__





						Chevrolet Bel Air Price Trends - CarGurus
					

Track  Chevrolet Bel Air price trends. Find out which cars are going up or down in price. Compare to index and historical prices.




					www.cargurus.com


----------



## over9k (20 January 2021)




----------



## Smurf1976 (20 January 2021)

over9k said:


> is there anything else that's gone over everybody's heads that we can grab some of before the crowd realises?



What companies make charging equipment? I mean in terms of fast chargers for public use? 

Vast majority of their sales are yet to come, it'll be a far bigger business over the coming years than it is today.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> What companies make charging equipment? I mean in terms of fast chargers for public use?
> 
> Vast majority of their sales are yet to come, it'll be a far bigger business over the coming years than it is today.




Not sure I'd invest in that until there is a standard world wide format for charging equipment.

VHS/Beta ?


----------



## over9k (20 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> What companies make charging equipment? I mean in terms of fast chargers for public use?
> 
> Vast majority of their sales are yet to come, it'll be a far bigger business over the coming years than it is today.



Missed that.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Not sure I'd invest in that until there is a standard world wide format for charging equipment.
> 
> VHS/Beta ?



That's a definite risk for the owners of chargers but for those manufacturing them no problem assuming they make or can rapidly adapt to make whatever type becomes the accepted norm.

I say that noting that there seems to be very few companies involved with conventional petrol pumps. Regardless of whether it's got BP, Caltex, Mobil, Shell, United or whatever fuel company name painted on it, look closer and you'll find that the pump itself most likely has Gilbarco printed on it somewhere - that's the manufacturer.

With that business approach, Gilbarco won't have had reason to care which fuel companies succeeded or whether cars used 91, 95, 98, E10 or Diesel since they still sold and maintained pumps regardless.

Whoever's going to make EV chargers, there's a lot of them to be made and sold in the coming years regardless of what type they are or who owns them.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's a definite risk for the owners of chargers but for those manufacturing them no problem assuming they make or can rapidly adapt to make whatever type becomes the accepted norm.
> 
> I say that noting that there seems to be very few companies involved with conventional petrol pumps. Regardless of whether it's got BP, Caltex, Mobil, Shell, United or whatever fuel company name painted on it, look closer and you'll find that the pump itself most likely has Gilbarco printed on it somewhere - that's the manufacturer.
> 
> ...



I bet companies like Seimens, Schneider and most of the other major electrical manufacturers in Europe, are watching it all carefully.


----------



## Value Collector (20 January 2021)

I just want to share this, this is the steam museum/lumber mill I used to visit as a kid.


----------



## over9k (20 January 2021)

Same with electricians etc. Half (all of?) the grid might need overhauling. Then we have all the solar panels and stuff that people are installing as well as government wind farms etc. 

The world is becoming less mechanical and more electrical every day.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I just want to share this, this is the steam museum/lumber mill I used to visit as a kid.




Yes it reminds me of what can happen in mining.








						Gwalia mining engineering recognised as Goldfields heritage
					

Near Leonora, the old Sons of Gwalia headframe and steam winder engine have been recognised under a national engineering heritage program, which is supporting preservation work at the historic Northern Goldfields mine.



					www.abc.net.au
				












						New life for town frozen in time after residents abandoned it 55 years ago
					

It all happened in one afternoon. Hundreds of families, grabbing what they could with what time they had, skipped town and didn't look back. Fifty-five years later, there's hope for a new beginning.




					www.abc.net.au
				




But we can get a bit off track, one mans deafness to BEV's.is another mans deafness to mining. Same horse different rider.


----------



## qldfrog (20 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Not sure I'd invest in that until there is a standard world wide format for charging equipment.
> 
> VHS/Beta ?



Why bother, made in china then stick a brand label et voila...
More interesting are the component used in these boxes:
Asx:RTF potentially a big winner, less excited with the likes of Tritium but in a world of narratives....


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Why bother, made in china then stick a brand label et voila...
> More interesting are the component used in these boxes:
> Asx:RTF potentially a big winner, less excited with the likes of Tritium but in a world of narratives....



Are they a manufacturer or an importer frog?


----------



## qldfrog (20 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Are they a manufacturer or an importer frog?



RTF has IP and manufacturing of very fast charger critical electomid/electrical components.high tech Brisbane based I thought but might be Victoria.
Sadly this type of business is hit hard by our self imposed blocus, and in high tech, every month counts

Tritium is a charger/charger network/software manufacturer..a very busy place to be IMHO.


----------



## over9k (20 January 2021)

You can see how it was right around the 6th of jan that everyone realised that this chip shortage is going to be a real problem - chips took off like a gunshot and industrials just flatlined. 

The second tesla et al report some kind of chip supply issue is the moment we see the EV manufacturers tank and chips shoot to the moon again in the exact same fashion. 

Probably going to nuke my industrials position and pump it into chips tonight and only sell a bit of my chip position off once I hear *some* kind of news of the chip supply problem abating. 

Considering that chips are now on backorder until Q3 of this year, that could be quite some time yet. For anyone holding an EV manufacturer (or two) it might be well worth spending an evening looking into their chip supply situation tonight.


----------



## frugal.rock (20 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Whoever's going to make EV chargers, there's a lot of them to be made and sold in the coming years regardless of what type they are or who owns them.



First  comes the lithium frenzy, then the tech frenzy....
*Rectifier Technologies,* Ticker *RFT* on the ASX. 
As researched and referenced by @aus_trader in his speculative stock portfolio.

https://www.rectifiertechnologies.com/


----------



## frugal.rock (20 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I just want to share this, this is the steam museum/lumber mill I used to visit as a kid.



The NSW version at Wauchope.
I love the smell of bullock poo in the morning...


----------



## over9k (20 January 2021)

frugal.rock said:


> First  comes the lithium frenzy, then the tech frenzy....
> *Rectifier Technologies,* Ticker *RFT* on the ASX.
> As researched and referenced by @aus_trader in his speculative stock portfolio.
> 
> https://www.rectifiertechnologies.com/



Horrible looking chart. Has the market missed it or is it shite for a reason?


----------



## frugal.rock (20 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Horrible looking chart. Has the market missed it or is it shite for a reason?



Glad you said that. 
Now I know I can expect it to rocket...lol.

As said, logical timing is after the immediate lithium frenzy, which I believe is starting to cool/ ease off with rotation a plenty still being seen.

For such a low priced species with a long history in its field, and a dividend payer, it will get discovered soon enough.


----------



## sptrawler (20 January 2021)

over9k said:


> Horrible looking chart. Has the market missed it or is it shite for a reason?



It is a very competitive field they are working in, but with the push for home grown, you never know.


----------



## over9k (21 January 2021)

frugal.rock said:


> Glad you said that.
> Now I know I can expect it to rocket...lol.
> 
> As said, logical timing is after the immediate lithium frenzy, which I believe is starting to cool/ ease off with rotation a plenty still being seen.
> ...



No no rock you've gotta wait for me to say I'm going to sell my holdings, then it'll take off.

Conversely, I'll say I'm going to buy at open tomorrow or something & then it will tank.


Which would you like to occur and I'll put an order in for the opposite. 


(I hate you btw )


----------



## qldfrog (21 January 2021)

frugal.rock said:


> First  comes the lithium frenzy, then the tech frenzy....
> *Rectifier Technologies,* Ticker *RFT* on the ASX.
> As researched and referenced by @aus_trader in his speculative stock portfolio.
> 
> https://www.rectifiertechnologies.com/



My apologies yes RFT, not RTF
thanks FR


----------



## frugal.rock (21 January 2021)

If I recall correctly, Ampol? was investing in installing EV chargers at 50? strategically selected servos.
It's bin a while since I (recently lol) read up on it, my point is, and the main takeaway for me was the knowledge that even the fossil fuelers are future prepping/ hedging. 
With Rectifier Technologies RFT being Australian, hopefully they get supported by local industry and the grubberment.


----------



## orr (21 January 2021)

frugal.rock said:


> hopefully they get *supported by *local industry and the *grubberment.  *???




They'll do all but die in ditch trying to slow it down in this country.
Morriscum will hate EV's until NewsCorp tells him not to... A lot of welded legacy auto industry doners trying to hold back the tide as long as possible. 
Best we can hope for is an policy  Auction on EV incentives in the run up to the next election.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 January 2021)

frugal.rock said:


> If I recall correctly, Ampol? was investing in installing EV chargers at 50? strategically selected servos.
> It's bin a while since I (recently lol) read up on it, my point is, and the main takeaway for me was the knowledge that even the fossil fuelers are future prepping/ hedging.



The energy industry, all of it from FF exploration through to electricity and fuels retail, is far less focused on the ideological war than the public would likely assume.

As I pointed out to someone on the "green" side of the debate some time ago, one key to removing opposition and moving forward with the whole thing is to enable a viable business pathway for the likes of BP, Shell and so on. The aim isn't to put them out of business as such, it's the oil that's a problem not the company per se. If they can build a viable business running public EV chargers or whatever and leverage their existing retail sites and brand for that then that's a good thing not a bad thing.

For the record, at least one of the very large fossil fuel companies does incorporate climate change into their own operations planning. They treat it as a purely matter of fact sort of thing not something that's contentious - climate is changing, this is what's happened thus far and this is the modeling going forward, these are the impacts.

It's politicians that do politics.


----------



## sptrawler (21 January 2021)

orr said:


> They'll do all but die in ditch trying to slow it down in this country.
> Morriscum will hate EV's until NewsCorp tells him not to... A lot of welded legacy auto industry doners trying to hold back the tide as long as possible.
> Best we can hope for is an policy  Auction on EV incentives in the run up to the next election.



Scomo still wont give your footy back Orr? 😂 😂 😂 😂


----------



## sptrawler (21 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The energy industry, all of it from FF exploration through to electricity and fuels retail, is far less focused on the ideological war than the public would likely assume.
> 
> As I pointed out to someone on the "green" side of the debate some time ago, one key to removing opposition and moving forward with the whole thing is to enable a viable business pathway for the likes of BP, Shell and so on. The aim isn't to put them out of business as such, it's the oil that's a problem not the company per se. If they can build a viable business running public EV chargers or whatever and leverage their existing retail sites and brand for that then that's a good thing not a bad thing.
> 
> ...



I assume these fossil fuel companies are not run by muppets, the same as the miners, the Banks and the power generation companies, they will all be looking at ways to transition away from fossil fuel and remain afloat and profitable.

Meanwhile we will still need fossil fuel for quite some time, it is a shame the media isn't mentioning that side, but then again I guess that wouldn't help with circulation.


----------



## orr (21 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> OIL   ...., *is far less focused on the ideological war than the public would likely assume.
> 
> 
> The aim isn't to put them out of business as such, it's the oil that's a problem not the company per se*.
> ...




That's there, Oil's, problem.... Renewable energy(wind and solar) is now a lower cost proposition and that's where investment will flow; Econmics  "One O' One". It ain't ideological it'*$* *Financial*
Death by a thousand cuts ...Every solar panal is another straw on Saudi Arimco's camels (and others) back....

Oh and Trawler once you've unsnagged your nets; What are the Smucks Government EV policy postions??? (so many hard questions)... Australia would love to know....not likely to hear much on that are we...till Murdoch says so...


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 January 2021)

orr said:


> It ain't ideological it'*$* *Financial*
> Death by a thousand cuts ...Every solar panal is another straw on Saudi Arimco's camels (and others) back....



Solar panels per se aren't competing against oil beyond to a very minimal extent since they're displacing the use of coal and gas primarily.

Electric cars are however competing directly against oil except in the minority of cases where the electricity used to charge them is generated from oil (but even then, they're still using less of it).


----------



## sptrawler (21 January 2021)

orr said:


> Oh and Trawler once you've unsnagged your nets; What are the Smucks Government EV policy postions??? (so many hard questions)... Australia would love to know....not likely to hear much on that are we...till Murdoch says so...



Well IMO I would rather a policy wasn't decided, until some form of International standard charging protocol is adopted, currently it is all over the place.
But we could do what we normally do and just chuck $hit in, then have to replace it all in a couple of years, because it is the wrong plug or voltage.
As with the State electrical distribution systems, the rapid change to renewables is causing havoc with a distribution system that was never designed for it. So the States are reconfiguring their transmission network to facilitate the roll out.
Much the same will happen with E.V's IMO, the rapid take up world wide will cause auto makers to have to conform to some international standards, which as far as I know haven't been decided yet.

Most modern *chargers* and *vehicles* have a *standard* connector and receptacle, called the SAE J1772. Any *vehicle* with this plug receptacle can use any Level 1 or Level 2 EVSE. ... However, other EVs (the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV in particular) use a different type of fast-*charge* connector called CHAdeMO.
The CHAdeMO charging on the Nissan leaf is currently being assessed for vehicle to grid charging for use in Australia.




__





						Realising Electric Vehicle-to-Grid Services
					

The Realising Electric Vehicle-to-grid Services project seeks to unlock the full economic and grid benefits of vehicle-to-grid (V2G) services in Australia.




					arena.gov.au
				








__





						Test driving electric vehicle home charging technologies
					

ARENA announced $2.9 million for AGL to undertake a large scale electric vehicle charging trial across NSW, QLD, VIC and SA




					arena.gov.au
				




So us charging ahead, guns blazing away, as per little Kev, will just end up with another pink batts disaster IMO rubbish tips full of batts when the bubble burst. 
But in this case it would be millions of dollars worth of useless charging infrastructure and many people buying expensive BEV's that actually aren't really that usefull.
But hey as long as your grabbing a headline, that's the main thing for some politicians.


----------



## Value Collector (21 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Solar panels per se aren't competing against oil beyond to a very minimal extent since they're displacing the use of coal and gas primarily.




Gas is a core business of oil companies, quite a few “Oil” companies actually produce more gas these days.

The headline “oil production” is often actually “Barrels of oil equivalent” meaning when they say they produced X barrels of oil, not all of that figure is liquid for some it’s well over 50% gas products, which would be in competition with increasing renewables, but also benefiting from the slow death of coal.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Gas is a core business of oil companies, quite a few “Oil” companies actually produce more gas these days.



For oil companies in general agreed but not for Saudi Aramco. Increasing the country's gas production has been an aim for quite a while but they're still very much an oil company as such.


----------



## sptrawler (22 January 2021)

orr said:


> Oh and Trawler once you've unsnagged your nets; What are the Smucks Government EV policy postions??? (so many hard questions)... Australia would love to know....not likely to hear much on that are we...till Murdoch says so...



I answered your question, have you something to add? Or has the cat got your tonque? 🤪


----------



## qldfrog (22 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I answered your question, have you something to add? Or has the cat got your tonque? 🤪



@sptrawler or agent provocateur?


----------



## orr (22 January 2021)

Tawler, EV sales in Australia 2020 were % 00.6 of new car sales..
Worlds Best, Norway 2020  %54...
And you some how construe that as a positive Australian National EV Policy environment. Good luck you'll need it...
Ten years ago when this thread kicked off one of the first posts nailed it "Electric Vehichals inevertable"
2014 Tesla installed it's first public Charging points.

In less than ten years the light vehical market will have bigger sales than ICE. One of the biggest industrial reconfigerations of the last century is happening under our feet... In Morrisons case 'feet of clay'.

Back in 1964 Donald Horne also nailed something; The themes of "the Lucky Country" are sadly to relevant today. Buy a copy for the smart one in your family...


----------



## basilio (24 January 2021)

Cheapest mass production EV car in Australia is the MG ZS EV, $44 k. 
Excellent review on the car and its capacities.  Perhaps the money point was the following observation

_Once you practically eliminate fuel costs, dramatically reduce the need for servicing and replacement parts (EVs have fewer moving parts, hence fewer things to go wrong), the MG ZS EV is looking fairly competitive with a petrol car._









						Australia's cheapest EV: can it survive a week of on-street parking and one very sandy dog?
					

The MG ZS EV brings electric cars into the realm of financial possibility for many more families. But is there a gap between possible and practical?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (24 January 2021)

orr said:


> Tawler, EV sales in Australia 2020 were % 00.6 of new car sales..
> Worlds Best, Norway 2020  %54...
> And you some how construe that as a positive Australian National EV Policy environment. Good luck you'll need it...
> Ten years ago when this thread kicked off one of the first posts nailed it "Electric Vehichals inevertable"
> ...



My personal guess is, Australia will be over 50% EV sales by 2030 and the infrastructure will be in to support it. The really funny thing is Scomo will probably still be in as well. There is certainly no opposition to be seen yet, so you may just have to keep complaining for a while.


----------



## sptrawler (24 January 2021)

orr said:


> Tawler, EV sales in Australia 2020 were % 00.6 of new car sales..
> Worlds Best, Norway 2020  %54...
> And you some how construe that as a positive Australian National EV Policy environment. Good luck you'll need it...
> Ten years ago when this thread kicked off one of the first posts nailed it "Electric *Vehichals inevertable*"
> ...



So just to clarify Orr, should I buy a copy for the smartest one in my family, or the youngest one who can spell better than you? 🤪 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
He would be about five years old. 👍
But hey we are drifting off topic, this is about cutting edge electric car information, not a political point scoring thread.
If you think the Government should do more to subsidies the uptake fine, let's discuss it, if you want it to be a mud slinging excericise then change threads.
Joe obviously has spent his time and money, to try and keep the nonsense out of the main forum, where it can be kept where it should be, under the radar in the argy bargy general chat section.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 January 2021)

The good, the bad and the ugly of Teslas.


----------



## qldfrog (25 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The good, the bad and the ugly of Teslas.




After viewing,my feelings are :dicks will be dicks,
whether you are a gold chains wearing Mafioso in a Maserati doing the rounds in Noosa or a hipster cool BTC "green" billionaire in a such a Tesla....
Manufacturers caring for their moronic overcashed audience.And we are supposed to save the planet?
africa population 100m in 1900, 650m in 1990, 2.5 billions projected in 2050...
Ev are great technologies but do zip for this poor old earth.
And i think it is actually relevant as the narrative behind EV is so twisted.


----------



## Value Collector (25 January 2021)

Teslas Battery Factory.


----------



## sptrawler (25 January 2021)

The Rivian pick up sounds as though it has some serious battery storage.
https://www.couriermail.com.au/moto...t/news-story/065e2ba9558cb6cf1b679f4eedfe3283
From the article:
_Rivian claims its R1T will have some pretty impressive performance. The truck will tow up to 4500kg and have a claimed range of up to 640km.

The good news for Aussie tradies is that it’s expected to be sold in Australia.

The Rivian R1T will be available in several variants including with a 135kWh or 180kWh battery pack, with respective theoretical range of 500km and 640km.

All are all-wheel drive — electric motors power each wheel, with torque vectoring to ensure optimum grip.

Power figures vary with specification: the smaller battery makes 563kW/1120Nm and the larger battery pack prioritises range over power, making 522kW/1120Nm.

The ute will have an 800kg payload and a wading depth of up to a metre._


----------



## sptrawler (26 January 2021)

Andrew Forrest thinks BEV's will be a stop gap, until H2 fuel cell cars and infrastructure are installed, which kind of is what we have been saying on this thread.




__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.couriermail.com.au
				



From the article:
_But hydrogen isn’t without its problems, as Mr Forrest noted in his lecture.

Similar to how a Tesla is only as green as the fuel you use to charge it, hydrogen is only as good as the fuel you use to produce it.

“Right now, we don’t use it for energy, it’s just an ingredient used in industrial processes, and we make it from fossil fuels – quaintly calling it grey hydrogen, to hide the fact that it’s a pollutant,” Mr Forrest said.

“Green hydrogen – the good stuff – is virtually ignored by the economic world.
We’re missing a colossal opportunity.”

Mr Forrest reckons a properly harnessed green hydrogen industry using renewable sources for production could generate revenues “at the very least of $US12 trillion ($A15.5 trillion) a year by 2050, bigger than any industry we have”.

Our “technology-led” Asian neighbours in Japan, Korea and China “have together pledged to put almost 8 million hydrogen fuel cell cars on the road”, and “Australia, with characteristic luck, is sitting on everything it needs to be the world leader – but only if it acts fast,” Mr Forrest said.

He added that although the Federal Government hasn’t committed to a zero emissions target by 2050 (and has also dragged its feet long enough for any eventual commitment to be largely symbolic: All of the states and territories now have their own targets), it is still “investing 300 million dollars in hydrogen”.

But Mr Forrest thinks it won’t even take until 2050 thanks to the same economic system that made him a billionaire.

“Forget 2050 – zero emissions will begin to happen overnight. That’s how capitalism works – you can predict that too,” he said_.


----------



## Value Collector (26 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Andrew Forrest thinks BEV's will be a stop gap, until H2 fuel cell cars and infrastructure are installed, which kind of is what we have been saying on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





sptrawler said:


> Andrew Forrest thinks BEV's will be a stop gap, until H2 fuel cell cars and infrastructure are installed, which kind of is what we have been saying on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There will be a place for hydrogen, But Battery EV’s only going to grow in number, they are just far to convenient for the vast majority of people.

Once you own a BEV, going back to a model that requires you to go to the petrol station is a step backwards not forwards, especially for people that want to utilise their own solar production.

———————
Industrial use of hydrogen, synthetic liquid fuels, energy storage, etc etc will be good uses of hydrogen.

But, I challenge anyone to drive an EV for 6 months charging at home to see whether they want to start attending the petrol station again, I doubt any sane person would, to many moving parts in the hydrogen production and transport model for it to ever compete with simply charging at home.


----------



## sptrawler (27 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> There will be a place for hydrogen, But Battery EV’s only going to grow in number, they are just far to convenient for the vast majority of people.
> 
> Once you own a BEV, going back to a model that requires you to go to the petrol station is a step backwards not forwards, especially for people that want to utilise their own solar production.
> 
> ...



A lot will depend on who makes money out of selling what, the BEV makes a lot of sense, but there isn't a lot of money to be made out of them for the fuel companies.
Who knows they may and start to make green hydrogen and supply both BEV's and H2 at servo's, time will tell, but I think it will be a long time if ever before H2 takes over from BEV for passenger vehicles.
Our next vehicle will be a BEV, it would suit our needs well.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Who knows they may and start to make green hydrogen and supply both BEV's and H2 at servo's



FWIW There was a concept around very early this century for hydrogen vehicles which did assume the hydrogen would be produced on-site at the servo from electrolysis.

I might even still have the documents (on paper) which went with it, complete with mockup images of the servos with electricity company branding.


----------



## over9k (27 January 2021)

For those who believe this, FCEL is your bet


----------



## Value Collector (27 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> FWIW There was a concept around very early this century for hydrogen vehicles which did assume the hydrogen would be produced on-site at the servo from electrolysis.
> 
> .




Much better to just be charging BEVs at that point, rather that suffer all the losses of Electrolysis and compression. 



> @sptrawler  - A lot will depend on who makes money out of selling what, the BEV makes a lot of sense, but there isn't a lot of money to be made out of them for the fuel companies.




I think the Electricity companies, especially the renewables generators looking to unload excess power can make a lot of money charging cars especially if they convince their customers to install smart chargers that they control.


----------



## Value Collector (27 January 2021)

This article talks about Hydrogen it mentions the energy losses in compression, these are losses on top of the 20%+ losses that happen during the actual electrolysis step producing the hydrogen, there is even more energy loss on top of compression if the ambient temps mean that cooling is required.



> from the article - Currently, hydrogen is typically compressed by a reciprocal compressor. At the flow rates and pressures for 1,000 kg/day hydrogen refueling stations, these compressors can achieve an isentropic efficiency of about 56% and a motor efficiency of 92% [5]. Using these values, the H2A Delivery Scenario Model (HDSAM) projects a refueling station compression energy efficiency of 52% to fill 350 and 49% for 700 bar vehicles.




https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/9013_energy_requirements_for_hydrogen_gas_compression.pdf


----------



## SirRumpole (27 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I think the Electricity companies, especially the renewables generators looking to unload excess power can make a lot of money charging cars especially if they convince their customers to install smart chargers that they control.




That would only work for consumers if there were enough electricity companies around to provide proper competition.

I posted this in another thread that shows that competition in the retail electricity  sector is a myth.









						47,000 Queenslanders join class action against firms accused of pushing up power prices
					

The law firm leading a major class action involving more than 47,000 people is looking for more people to register for reimbursement as it alleges two of the state's biggest power players artificially created a lack of supply to drive up prices.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Value Collector (27 January 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> That would only work for consumers if there were enough electricity companies around to provide proper competition.
> 
> I posted this in another thread that shows that competition in the retail electricity  sector is a myth.
> 
> ...




My comment was about whether there was profit to be made from it for the electric companies (since that was what SP was referring to), I wasn't actually commenting on whether it is good for the consumer.

However, longterm prices can't drop below the basic cost of supplying the service for long, so they consumers have a better chance of getting a better deal with the technology that has the lowest on going cost, and at the moment that would be charging BEVs because the hydrogen system has exactly the same cost inputs as charging, except it has added steps which increase the costs and higher installation costs for equipment.


----------



## sptrawler (27 January 2021)

The thing is with the change over to BEV's, there isn't a huge benefit ATM for the consumer, so eventually it has to become the carrot or the stick to accelerate change. Then the consumer will benefit, currently the only benefit is for the generators, so they have to get the cart before the horse.
My guess is the change will happen very rapidly, over the next 3-5 years, as the coal generators become less and less cost effective and less reliable due to increased cycling of the units.
As we posted in the power thread, the only coal fired power station in W.A that is privately owned, have the youngest units on the grid and have already been written down to zero value, so either the generators get out or adapt.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 January 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Much better to just be charging BEVs at that point, rather that suffer all the losses of Electrolysis and compression.



Agreed from a technical perspective certainly.

From a business perspective though, the electricity companies will ultimately aim to supply whatever the market decides it wants be that efficient or inefficient technically.

There's plenty of precedents for inefficient technical approaches ending up the way something is done in practice.

A lot of freight travels further than it needs to for example. Technically inefficient but efficient from a business perspective.

If you're reading this on a desktop or laptop PC then most likely it's running an operating system that's notoriously inefficient technically but it works pretty well and dominates the market.

Incandescent lighting was outmoded in the 1930's so far as efficiency is concerned but continued to expand greatly for decades beyond that.

Etc. Lots of examples where the inefficient approach won. The energy industry will go whichever way consumers and car manufacturers go.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 January 2021)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is the change will happen very rapidly, over the next 3-5 years, as the coal generators become less and less cost effective and less reliable due to increased cycling of the units.
> As we posted in the power thread, the only coal fired power station in W.A that is privately owned, have the youngest units on the grid and have already been written down to zero value, so either the generators get out or adapt.




Some wind and solar's gone to waste for most of the day today.

Anyone in Vic or SA who charged an EV (or for that matter used electricity for anything else) anytime in the past 8.5 hours has in practice added zero CO2 emissions.

Doesn't happen every day but it does happen and just ending now.

That doesn't mean no fossil fuel power in the grid, it means the marginal source was wind / solar with some of that going to waste. You use more = wind or solar turned up slightly, no change in amount of fossil fuel burned therefore your contribution to emissions would have been zero.

That's very much a day by day, indeed hour by hour, situation but it certainly does occur and happened today. Market spot prices negative during this time too by the way.


----------



## aus_trader (27 January 2021)

over9k said:


> For those who believe this, FCEL is your bet



You've jinxed it man...


----------



## Value Collector (27 January 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed from a technical perspective certainly.
> 
> From a business perspective though, the electricity companies will ultimately aim to supply whatever the market decides it wants be that efficient or inefficient technically.
> 
> ...



The market is pretty brutal in penalising high cost producers when there is a cheaper simpler model.

if hydrogen system was already installed, I agree with you it would be hard to replace even if another system was more efficient.

but the hydrogen infrastructure is not installed yet, but almost everything you need for Bevs is already installed, and relatively few new charging location need to be installed compared to how many hydrogen locations would have to be installed.


----------



## Value Collector (27 January 2021)

This website is interesting to check out every now and then, it gives live stats of the Australian electricity market.

https://www.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/australian-electricity-statistics/


----------



## over9k (28 January 2021)




----------



## sptrawler (31 January 2021)

Well it hasn't taken long, i don't think we will need incentives, it is going to happen quicker than anyone expects IMO.








						First BYD Han electric sedan lands in Australia ahead of consumer launch
					

First BYD Han electric sedan arrives in Australia ahead of launch of new direct-to-consumer EV buying project in February.




					thedriven.io
				



From the article:
_The first BYD electric sedan has arrived in Australia ahead of the launch of a new direct-to-consumer EV buying project to be launched in February.

In a post on LinkedIn on Friday the Australian arm of the Chinese EV and battery maker BYD, which has the backing of US billionaire Warren Buffet, posted an image of the recently imported Han EV which it says will have 605km driving range and use the company’s new Blade battery it first unveiled in March 2020.

Sitting at the wheel of the Han is Luke Todd, CEO and founder of TrueGreen, a company that has a big vision for electromobility in Australia including EVDirect which plans to import four BYD models using a manufacturer-to-consumer model that will cut out the middle man, aka car dealer.

With EV Direct to be launched imminently, the Han with its 180kW electric motor and ability to go from 0-100km/hr within 3.9 seconds is the first off the ranks for those after more choice on Australia’s limited EV market.

“For those that love their cars, I drove this on a private road yesterday and hands down this is the best EV in Australia at the moment. Nothing else comes close.”

TrueGreen is an umbrella group encompassing electric bus company Nexport, Gemilang coaches, electric taxi company EVTaxiCo and electric boat company Impact Boats_.


----------



## orr (1 February 2021)

Don't get me wrong here Trawler, the more EV's on Australian tarmac the better, particularly when they're '_hands down the best_'.
But square this circle for me from the above;

_"Sitting at the wheel of the Han is Luke Todd, CEO and founder of TrueGreen, a company that has a big vision for electromobility in Australia including EVDirect which plans to import four BYD models using a *manufacturer-to-consumer* model that *will cut out the middle man*, a*ka car dealer*."_

Why is the purchaser of a BYD vehical buying from TrueGreen(wash)... At this point it should be noted that a major investor in TrueGreen(wash) is Nick Politis. Nick funnily enough makes his money  a car dealer.
Anything that plays off a relation ship with the NRL needs to kept a close eye on... 

Interestingly (imo); A couple of days back from the same esteeming(turd) organ above quoted was this peice as a bit of insight to current Federal EV(non) Policy...









						Scott Morrison test drives an electric truck, but can't find EV policy button
					

Scott Morrison drives an electric truck. Did it ruin his weekend?




					thedriven.io
				




no spell check; couldn't GAF...


----------



## basilio (1 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well it hasn't taken long, i don't think we will need incentives, it is going to happen quicker than anyone expects IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good find SP.  There is another article from Which Car that adds some salient points. Seems as if this will be very competitive with the Tesla 3 . 
I am surprised it has taken so long for BYD to sell in Australia. They have been the forerunner for EV vehicles in China for a number of years.









						BYD Han sedan, Tang SUV: Chinese Tesla rivals lands in Australia | UPDATE: Available for presale in 2021
					

BYD shows off the Han EV in Sydney ahead of it going on presale with its Tang SUV sibling in July




					www.whichcar.com.au


----------



## rederob (1 February 2021)

Here's what the past 10 years look like:



Electric car sales in 2020 broke all records amidst the crisis caused by the pandemic.​


----------



## sptrawler (1 February 2021)

I just hope we get the vehicle to grid protocol tested and cleared.


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2021)

Hey @Value Collector , can this incorporate your Tesla model 3? full grid integration is the answer for electric cars IMO.
If they can be integrated to charge or discharge as required, it will be nirvana for Australian adoption of BEV's, solving two problems with one answer beautiful. 👍 








						First Look: Tesla Inverter Installed on 10.20 kW Solar System & Exclusive Photos
					

In mid-January 2021 Tesla has introduced a new product that has become a logical and irreplaceable addition to the product line from its Tesla Energy division - Tesla Solar Inverter. The first installations using the new equipment have already begun.




					www.tesmanian.com


----------



## Value Collector (2 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Hey @Value Collector , can this incorporate your Tesla model 3? full grid integration is the answer for electric cars IMO.
> If they can be integrated to charge or discharge as required, it will be nirvana for Australian adoption of BEV's, solving two problems with one answer beautiful. 👍
> 
> 
> ...



Not yet, but Elon has spoken about it, so I think it is on the cards eventually.

I think you are right with using the car batteries to power your home, I mean cars represent a lot of capital that just sits round for many hours each day, it’s just another way you can be getting value out of that capital and making the car pay for its self faster.


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Not yet, but Elon has spoken about it, so I think it is on the cards eventually.
> 
> I think you are right with using the car batteries to power your home, I mean cars represent a lot of capital that just sits round for many hours each day, it’s just another way you can be getting value out of that capital and making the car pay for its self faster.



The big thing is, the BEV, is a huge grid connected battery, that can really help us move to renewable generation.
The real issue is getting it right, you cant have car batteries flat when the owner needs it, you cant have all the car batteries charged when the grid needs it.
How they integrate that is going to be the key issue, everyone throwing in chargers is great, but in reality it needs to be really well thought out, before a national policy is adopted.
Charging isnt really an issue, because the power flows one way, so you just regulate the maximum demand on the charger.
When the power flows both ways it becomes a real issue, because then it affects system frquency and stability.
So I would think this whole vehicle to grid transition is required, but has to be taken with baby steps, it is the key to BEVs being adopted, but it is a really dangerous and new way of running a power system.
A BEV, is a really small insignificant component, connected to a very powerful grid.
One car blows up and it puts everything back five years IMO.
Or if the grid sucks a 90kw/hr Tesla battery flat, the owner will be just as pizzed.
It is ok for the manufacturer to say our car is suitable for grid connection, but the electrical authorities have to be double sure it is.
Two way flow is required, but some form of standard AI is going to be required, or a smart charger.
Just my thoughts


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It is ok for the manufacturer to say our car is suitable for grid connection, but the electrical authorities have to be double sure it is.



My house will be subject to a planned power interruption, whole working day, a few days from now.

During that time my own power generation will run islanded and so there's no major impact, my house still has electricity within the limits of the system. Just can't bring any more in from the grid and can't export anything to it but so long as consumption remains within capacity then it works.

Now I'm sure you understand all too well that if this wasn't done strictly by the book, if electricity did flow from my property to the grid during this time, then it could very well kill someone and I mean really, actually kill them.

This is the kind of thing that can be done but has to be 100% right when it comes to generation (discharging an EV's battery into the grid is generation in this context) because anything even slightly less ends very badly. It's an area where a "hard" engineering approach is required and the network operators will demand proof.

Do it properly though and, well I'm pretty sure that people would be more than happy to power their home from their car during a supply outage.


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2021)

Yes smurf, the media, companies with skin in the game and those with vested interests keep pushing for tax payers money.
When in reality we are in the very early stages of integrating all this crap.


----------



## qldfrog (2 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The big thing is, the BEV, is a huge grid connected battery, that can really help us move to renewable generation.
> The real issue is getting it right, you cant have car batteries flat when the owner needs it, you cant have all the car batteries charged when the grid needs it.
> How they integrate that is going to be the key issue, everyone throwing in chargers is great, but in reality it needs to be really well thought out, before a national policy is adopted.
> Charging isnt really an issue, because the power flows one way, so you just regulate the maximum demand on the charger.
> ...



Seeing it from the IT side, it is a nightmare and so many thing can go wrong
You have to have an orchestra maestro on the national level dealing with multiple states and multiple retail companies each with their own plans which are going to deal themselves with individual car systems,each currently speaking their own proprietary languages,technologies,limits and conficting needs.
Being a liberal capitalist at heart..i mean real liberal, not socialist, i see the only solution as a $ based one: a free market where the $ value of power connected to these BEV would drastically change within seconds and act as the regulator turning bev into source then consummer based on car owners choices (programming of bev 2ways unit)
I would call it the ant or bee hive model, distributed, independent nodes acting in unison.still need a bit of standardisation but software adaptor interfaces can be relatively easily built
Still requires high level planning in term of global availability.we still need to produce some background power,have overall sizing etc

But this becomes a political issue and i believe a top down policy with its well rehearsed issues and blackouts is the only one politically able to be sold in our woke days,so we will fail lamely.
Imagine my $based solution
Aka in the ABC or today tonight
it is unfair that this car owner is making a fortune here whereas the same car owner in another suburb is paying a fortune to charge his battler's Tesla. Just because of their position in the grid?
You would be amazed at how politics actually  influence technical choice.
So expect the worst once we reach critical mass.


----------



## Value Collector (2 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The big thing is, the BEV, is a huge grid connected battery, that can really help us move to renewable generation.
> The real issue is getting it right, you cant have car batteries flat when the owner needs it, you cant have all the car batteries charged when the grid needs it.
> How they integrate that is going to be the key issue, everyone throwing in chargers is great, but in reality it needs to be really well thought out, before a national policy is adopted.
> Charging isnt really an issue, because the power flows one way, so you just regulate the maximum demand on the charger.
> ...




You can just have the owner of the EV set what the minimum charge level the car is allowed to go to.

for example, if you knew you needed 50% of your charge for your daily commute, you could set the car to never let the grid withdraw below the level of 60%.


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


> You can just have the owner of the EV set what the minimum charge level the car is allowed to go to.
> 
> for example, if you knew you needed 50% of your charge for your daily commute, you could set the car to never let the grid withdraw below the level of 60%.



The car isnt the problem, the issue is the charging equipment has to be able to handle two way flow and work in unison with all the other chargers, or they will melt down.
The car is just the battery, the charger will have to be a charger and an inverter that can control discharge rate etc. It is going to be very interesting and we are at the very beginning of the journey.


----------



## Value Collector (2 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The car isnt the problem, the issue is the charging equipment has to be able to handle two way flow and work in unison with all the other chargers, or they will melt down.
> The car is just the battery, the charger will have to be a charger and an inverter that can control discharge rate etc. It is going to be very interesting and we are at the very beginning of the journey.



Tesla already have the Powerwall product, and other home and grid connected battery products, I am sure its not to difficult for them to manage, I mean their products are already being utilised in AGL's virtual power plant program here in Australia. 

I think Tesla will get around to it.


----------



## Value Collector (2 February 2021)




----------



## over9k (2 February 2021)

Don't they already have the powerwall though?


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2021)

over9k said:


> Don't they already have the powerwall though?



Yes they do, I haven't looked into it, but I doubt they work in unison with other charger/inverters, that is when a power failure happens the power wall probably islands itself and runs that house.

The issue that i'm talking about is when  the cars are being used as storage for the grid, which is a whole different concept, in that situation the cars would stay connected to actually maintain grid security.
That is a massively complex scenario and actually may not happen, but my guess is it is being investigated as it would make a massive difference to how much storage the Government and industry will have to install.

The other issue is what smurf alluded to in post #3,269 above.


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2021)

G.M to join the BEV party, stopping all production of ICE vehicles by 2035








						GM’s move the beginning of the end for petrol cars
					

GM’s tilt to electric marks the start of what is sure to be a domino effect in the US car industry.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## over9k (2 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes they do, I haven't looked into it, but I doubt they work in unison with other charger/inverters, that is when a power failure happens the power wall probably islands itself and runs that house.
> 
> The issue that i'm talking about is when  the cars are being used as storage for the grid, which is a whole different concept, in that situation the cars would stay connected to actually maintain grid security.
> That is a massively complex scenario and actually may not happen, but my guess is it is being investigated as it would make a massive difference to how much storage the Government and industry will have to install.
> ...



What I was saying was, isn't that what the powerwall already does? 

It seems like a great idea to me, charge it off-peak, discharge during peak, save some cash?


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 February 2021)

On the AC power side, ultimately all generators (technically not the right term but it's the layman's one so I'll use it) are in parallel.

All generators feed into the grid and all loads draw from it regardless of scale or location on the grid. Your 5kW solar inverter at home is indeed working in parallel with Loy Yang power station - a massive scale difference but they're both generating into the grid.

Same on the load side. Your iPhone charger drawing all of 5 Watts is ultimately just another load in parallel with all the rest. At the other end of the scale spectrum, heavy industry is just a much larger load on the same system.

Fail to keep that in balance and it ends with a frequency deviation and system collapse, a situation which can unfold from start to outright collapse in a matter of seconds in the worst case. Has happened before, most Australian states have had at least one incident sometime in the past, and there's been a few near misses in recent years that have raised eyebrows that's for sure.

Doing all that via distributed generation is doable as such, just needs a suitable control system to make it work.

In saying that, the public internet is nowhere near fast or reliable enough to use as the sole basis of control. Part of the basis for it could be done that way but it's not up to the task of being the sole basis. There needs to be some inherent built-in control logic which maintains safe operation in the event that communications is lost nothing that simply shutting down is not an acceptable response and even simply maintaining the last status isn't a good one either.

FWIW there was an actual very recent operating incident where SCADA visibility of generator outputs was indeed lost. Happened on 24 January this year in the afternoon and affected the whole system. Also happening that afternoon was failure of three transmission lines in SA due to bushfire and also a lack of any significant reserve generating plant available in that state.

The lights stayed on because as it turned out power station operators do indeed know how to fly manually whilst blindfolded. Thank heavens - could've taken down the whole system otherwise.

Needless to say, someone at home with an EV won't be doing that so the control logic needs to be inbuilt and failsafe - that means "keep driving at highway speed whilst blindfolded just don't run off the road or into anything" sort of failsafe, it doesn't mean just stop or pull over, that's not an option - the show _must_ go on regardless, stopping is not a failsafe when doing so causes collapse. That's the tricky bit to get right - making sure that flying blindfolded works well enough.

To that end I'll note that there's quite a bit of concern about the existing fleet of grid-connect solar inverters. Some behave nicely under adverse conditions, some most certainly don't, and there's enough of them now in some states to cause a major issue if they don't play nicely together. Tests are being done both under lab conditions and with field observations and manufacturers are having the gun pointed firmly at their head where necessary.

It can be done, it just needs proper design and actually doing it. That means proper technical standards and rigid compliance. Manufacturers can innovate all they like on the "how" aspect but when it comes to the "what" bit, that needs to be identical across the fleet and absolutely predictable.

Perhaps worth mentioning that so far as is known, South Australia does at times have a higher proportion of supply from distributed inverter-based generation than any other substantial power system in the planet. So we have the test case right here in Australia so far as doing this sort of thing is concerned. Just need to keep the politicians well clear.......


----------



## Value Collector (2 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes they do, I haven't looked into it, but I doubt they work in unison with other charger/inverters, that is when a power failure happens the power wall probably islands itself and runs that house.
> 
> The issue that i'm talking about is when  the cars are being used as storage for the grid, which is a whole different concept, in that situation the cars would stay connected to actually maintain grid security.
> That is a massively complex scenario and actually may not happen, but my guess is it is being investigated as it would make a massive difference to how much storage the Government and industry will have to install.
> ...



Power walls can send power back to the grid, you just have to program what conditions you wish them to do that in, or like agl does they can be controlled by a third party.

If you have a solar power and a power wall battery and are part of AGL’s virtual power plant they will pay you 16cents for any power you send them from your solar or your battery, and they will sell you unlimited power back at 16cents.

So your  buy and sell is exactly the same, so it basically turns your power wall into an unlimited sized battery for your solar system.

obviously AGL will take the power from your battery when they can sell it at a high price, and then choose whether to take your solar or charge the battery when it suits them at low prices, but from your end you get to have 100% of your solar regardless of times of day without the price difference in buy sell


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Power walls can send power back to the grid, you just have to program what conditions you wish them to do that in, or like agl does they can be controlled by a third party.



To expand on that - the third party is in practice overriding the Powerwall's own process of matching output with house load. That is, changing its output to something other than what it would naturally be.

If communications fails for whatever reason - the Powerwall just defaults back to operating as a self-contained system, it doesn't stop altogether.


----------



## over9k (2 February 2021)

I would have thought it would just literally be on an on/off peak timer?


----------



## fiftyeight (3 February 2021)

Haha I love this guy.

He does a good job at summarising the technical, political and practicality of EVs


----------



## sptrawler (6 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The car isnt the problem, the issue is the charging equipment has to be able to handle two way flow and work in unison with all the other chargers, or they will melt down.
> The car is just the battery, the charger will have to be a charger and an inverter that can control discharge rate etc. It is going to be very interesting and we are at the very beginning of the journey.



More on some of the issues I was talking about, in this article:








						Jemena to lead wall charger trial to allow networks to control home EV charging
					

Jemena is to lead a trial of “smart wall chargers” across three states to test how networks can “dynamically” manage charging of electric vehicles at home.




					reneweconomy.com.au
				



From the article:
_Jemena is to lead a trial of “smart wall chargers” across three states that will test how networks can “dynamically” manage charging of electric vehicles at home according to supply and demand.

The $3.4 million trial will involve more than 170 households across Victoria, the ACT and Tasmania, and the network companies AusNet Services, Evoenergy, TasNetworks and United Energy. It is one of a number of “trials” being run across the country to test how EV charging fits into the transitioning grid.

The Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) will pay $1.6 million towards a program that tests “smart” electric vehicle charging technology that is faster than standard home chargers and responsive to grid demand_.
​


----------



## qldfrog (7 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> More on some of the issues I was talking about, in this article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One issue i see is the battery designers want to build batteries for continuous charging when parked then discharge during drive aka charge under temp.etc settled along a few hours with usually multi phase charging to extend life of the battery and components.
Once hooked to the grid as a 2 way system,your battery could see itself switching quickly fron charge discharge ,and even if this was controlled somewhat,would not to say will be subjected to more cycle and so shorten life 
Which we can summarise as: the EV ownerss suckers will destroy their battery to benefit the grid and will be taxed for it  
Considering the battery cost in an EV,not something to discard


----------



## basilio (7 February 2021)

GM "all in" on electric cars . Wait for the punchline.


----------



## basilio (7 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


>





Well worth checking  out.   It seems quite clear that the Tesla 3 has had Bi directional charging installed from 2017 onwards.
Very big deal clearly because suddenly there are a ton of EV cars that can  act as a virtual battery bank. Just needs the software turned.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 February 2021)

Federal government being dragged into an electric car future.


Just a "discussion paper", will they follow it through ?









						End of the 'war on the weekend' or beginning of an auto revolution? Government shifts on electric cars
					

It's two years overdue and the details were leaked months ago, but the Federal Government has finally released its plans for supporting electric vehicles.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## over9k (8 February 2021)

They'll go on an infrastructure binge once coronavirus is over. Every government around the world is doing the same thing, and they've all collectively decided it'll be for EV stuff.


----------



## over9k (8 February 2021)




----------



## sptrawler (8 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Federal government being dragged into an electric car future.
> 
> 
> Just a "discussion paper", will they follow it through ?
> ...



It isn't a case of will they follow through, we import cars and the world's car makers are changing over from ICE to BEV, so it is a case of we will have to transition to BEV's that's all that will be available.
What Australia doesn't want to do, is pour billions of taxpayers money, into infrastructure that becomes obsolete in 4 years time.
Investigating the best charging architectures and which equipment works the best with a smart grid, is far more important IMO, than giving taxpayer subsidies to increase uptake of BEV's when the manufacturers haven't agreed on a standard.
ATM it is like the early days of mobile phones and every phone had a different charger and charging voltage, eventually they had to standardise on micro usb, which made it all so much easier.
Currently a lot of BEV manufacturers are using different plugs, different voltages etc.
I'm sure the international auto regulatory body will demand a standard is decided on, similar to what happened with engine management and OBD2 protocol:

_1996: The OBD-II specification is made mandatory for all cars sold in the United States._
_2001: The European Union makes EOBD mandatory for all gasoline (petrol) vehicles sold in the European Union, starting in MY2001 (see European emission standards Directive 98/69/EC[3])._
_2004: The European Union makes EOBD mandatory for all diesel vehicles sold in the European Union_
_2006: All vehicles manufactured in Australia and New Zealand are required to be OBD-II compliant after January 1, 2006_.
Until the standards are finalised, we may well be putting in equipment that, the car manufacturers decide isn't the one they agree on.
So IMO as we don't produce cars here, to steam ahead of the game would be dumb as.
All we need ATM is basic charging infrastructure, this is being rolled out by the private sector and the States and seems like the best plan to me at this point.




__





						Media Statements - New strategy to power electric vehicles in Western Australia
					






					www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au
				




China, which is the biggest market for BEV's in the World, are probably going to be the ones who decide what charging architecture is adopted IMO.
So a wait and see approach is the best IMO, usually we adopt the look at us and try to lead the World, maybe we have outgrown our inferiority complex and are taking a more measured approach? Who knows.





__





						Do All Electric Cars Use the Same ‘Universal’ Plugs and Chargers? - Get Green Now
					

The world of EVs is rapidly changing, but I’ve done some research and compiled everything I’ve learned about EV charging into this article, up-to-date for 2020.  So, do all electric cars use the same ‘universal’ plugs and chargers? In short, all electric car brands in North America use the same...




					get-green-now.com
				



From the article:
_Charging Into the Future_​_As the electric vehicle revolution continues to roll on, it is important to remember that the technology related to charging these vehicles is always improving. That means that, in a few short years, some of the growing pains consumers currently experience will likely be addressed – from the lack of a standardized charging mechanism to the amount of time it takes to fully charge an EV battery. The return on your investment in an electric vehicle is likely to only increase in the very near future_.


----------



## boofhead (8 February 2021)

Australian company Tritium has done some deals working with ChargePoint and IONITY which shows some move towards common standards. Thankfully Toyota hasn't jumped in to BEV and focused more on hybrid so less variety on how companies do it all


----------



## over9k (8 February 2021)

They'll make adapters. Think about using foreign electronics in different countries' wall sockets/powerpoints. 

This is a non-issue.


----------



## over9k (10 February 2021)

China's auto sales surged 30% in January, tenth straight monthly gain
					

Auto sales in China, the world's biggest market, surged in January with a 30% jump from the same month a year earlier, the tenth month of gains, as China continued to lead the global automobile industry's recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Value Collector (10 February 2021)

fiftyeight said:


> Haha I love this guy.
> 
> He does a good job at summarising the technical, political and practicality of EVs





The funniest part about the video is that he is a petrol head, that finally realises now that EV’s are better and more convenient, however he still doesn’t want to think of himself as being part of the EV crowd that like the environmental benefits, so he builds a strawman argument against the non existent EV environmentalists that think EVs are carbon negative.

EV owners don’t think that just because they use an EV that their entire life becomes fossil fuel free and carbon neutral, so his whole rant about that is silly.


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2021)

Geely to offer to build E.V's for other manufacturers.









						Manufacturer for hire: China's Geely sets out to become a force in electric cars
					

Like many others in his industry, Geely Chairman Li Shufu has been irked by skyrocketing valuations for electric car manufacturers such as Tesla Inc and Nio Inc, sources at the Chinese automaker say.  Getting Geely, which owns Volvo Cars and 9.7% of Daimler AG, to a place where it too may claim...




					au.news.yahoo.com


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2021)

Looks like the oil companies are in the market for change, this should encourage the private companies to get a move on, if they want a part of the BEV charging business.








						Shell buys out Ubitricity, a major British charging network
					

Neither company has revealed the monetary value of the deal




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Royal Dutch Shell – the world’s fourth largest oil and gas company – has announced its acquisition of British public electric vehicle charging network Ubitricity.​Neither company has revealed the monetary value of the deal, however, in an official statement released last week, Shell confirmed it was expecting to complete the take-over by the end of 2021.
According to Ubitricity's website, the company currently owns and maintains approximately 2700 on-street charge points throughout Britain.
Founded in 2008, the company is partially owned by automotive manufacturer Honda.
Shell said of the agreement: "This acquisition marks [our] expansion into the fast-growing on-street EV charging market and will provide critical competencies, helping us to scale our overall [electric vehicle] charging offer."

The oil giant claims it is aiming for carbon neutrality by 2050.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The funniest part about the video is that he is a petrol head, that finally realises now that EV’s are better and more convenient, however he still doesn’t want to think of himself as being part of the EV crowd that like the environmental benefits, so he builds a strawman argument against the non existent EV environmentalists that think EVs are carbon negative.
> 
> EV owners don’t think that just because they use an EV that their entire life becomes fossil fuel free and carbon neutral, so his whole rant about that is silly.




Any comments on the child labour issue ?





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				












						Apple and Google named in US lawsuit over Congolese child cobalt mining deaths
					

Dell, Microsoft and Tesla also among tech firms named in case brought by families of children killed or injured while mining in DRC




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## over9k (11 February 2021)

Only one of a zillion.


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Any comments on the child labour issue ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesnt fit the current rhetoric, no one is listening, you should be in tune with that it is used to great effect.
Tone deaf to facts, kind of sounds familiar.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Any comments on the child labour issue ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tesla’s new batteries don’t contain any Cobolt, so I guess it’s not an issue if you are purchasing a Tesla.

However, of course I am against exploitation and believe it should be something that should be looked into more where ever it is happening and what ever industry it is happening in, I don’t think it is as simple as avoiding certain elements on the periodic table.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...t-free-cathodes-mining-battery-nickel-ev-cost


----------



## SirRumpole (12 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla’s new batteries don’t contain any Cobolt, so I guess it’s not an issue if you are purchasing a Tesla.
> 
> However, of course I am against exploitation and believe it should be something that should be looked into more where ever it is happening and what ever industry it is happening in, I don’t think it is as simple as avoiding certain elements on the periodic table.
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www...t-free-cathodes-mining-battery-nickel-ev-cost




At the moment it's just  plan to make batteries without cobalt, and Tesla has been named in a lawsuit, but I guess we all use batteries and probably most use cobalt, but there are a lot of batteries in an EV.

Good on Musk if he recognises the problem, but he seems to thinks it's more an issue of cost than exploitation.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> At the moment it's just  plan to make batteries without cobalt, and Tesla has been named in a lawsuit, but I guess we all use batteries and probably most use cobalt, but there are a lot of batteries in an EV.







SirRumpole said:


> Good on Musk if he recognises the problem, but he seems to thinks it's more an issue of cost than exploitation.



No the battery factory producing the cobolt free batteries is already running, and these are the first batteries Tesla has actually designed and produced them selves.

the high cost is part of the problem that creates incentives to exploit all available labour to produce it.

All other batteries Tesla has used have been produced by Panasonic and LG, the cobolt free batteries are the first battery Tesla has made themselves.

but as I said I don’t think simply avoiding certain metals is the solution, child labour exists in most industries, even the steel recycling industry, I think it’s a problem and I am not sure of the solution.


----------



## moXJO (12 February 2021)

Child labour is of course abhorrent. 
However the absolute poverty that people around the world live in would mean families would starve without the income.

I'm in no way saying it should be accepted. I am saying that a whole lot needs to change so that people won't suffer more.


----------



## Value Collector (12 February 2021)

moXJO said:


> Child labour is of course abhorrent.
> However the absolute poverty that people around the world live in would mean families would starve without the income.
> 
> I'm in no way saying it should be accepted. I am saying that a whole lot needs to change so that people won't suffer more.



Yeah, I think helping the worlds poorest nations develop their economies should be a priority.

there is no reason why these metals can’t be mined using more capital intensive, safer ways. It just comes down to politics and investment.


----------



## orr (13 February 2021)

A considerable proportion of the link below is a critque of Australia's floundering National EV policy situation. Luckly there is hope but it's not coming from the conflicted plonkers in Morrisons Cabinet....









						Who’s about to get rich off the green energy revolution?
					

A generation of Australian entrepreneurs is readying for a carbonless future, even as the Morrison government remains stubbornly committed to gas and coal.




					www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au
				




And for those concerned as to Child abuse, you may have a think about the dereliction of duty to the children of the children of today  that the policy settings of Morrison is condeming them to in the future...scraping a bit of cobalt out of the dust just maybe preferable...


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2021)

Land Rover to go all BEV by 2025, also sounds as though they may make their own battery plant.








						Luxury car brand Jaguar to go all-electric by 2025
					

The company hopes the move will help turn around the fortunes of the 86-year-old Jaguar brand, which for many epitomises class but has struggled in recent years.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
_Struggling luxury car brand Jaguar will be fully electric by 2025, the British company said on Monday (UK time) as it outlined a plan to phase out internal combustion engines.
The switch to an electric future will involve moving car production from JLR’s Castle Bromwich factory east of the central England city of Birmingham to nearby Solihull.

Chief executive Thierry Bollore said the firm is “exploring opportunities to repurpose” the Castle Bromwich plant, leading to speculation it could be used for battery production_.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2021)

It sounds as though BEV voltages are really starting to get up there, which should reduce charging current/ temperatures, therefore charging times IMO.
https://thedriven.io/2021/02/15/new...q-5-testing-at-tritium-brisbane-headquarters/
From the article:
_The Ioniq 5 will be built using Hyundai’s e-GMP platform, which it has previously said it will use in its dedicated electric car range and which will be offered with a typical 400-volt electrical architecture, or in a high-performance 800-volt version for faster charger and more power.

More details of the Ioniq 5 were revealed in a leak in December that confirmed the 800-volt architecture would allow the vehicle to charge from 0-80% in as little as 15 minutes.

It is unknown whether the Ioniq 5 snapped at this charger is using the 400-volt or 800-volt architecture, but it was observed by commenters on Tritium’s Facebook post that if it were the latter, it should surely be snapped using Tritium’s 350kW ultra-fast PK350 chargers_.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2021)

I think this idea by VW, is the only way they will be able to transition to BEV without a financial collapse, as long as the other manufacturers follow suite.  









						VW to introduce own "carbon tax" on cars, exempting electrics
					

Volkswagen to raise prices of its cars on basis of CO2 emissions, German media reports.




					thedriven.io
				



From the article:
_Volkswagen will raise the prices of its cars on the basis of the models’ CO2 emissions, Stefan Menzel writes in business daily Handelsblatt.

The Wolfsburg-based car company increases its prices annually based on inflation, but this is the first time the company adds an environmental component that leads to a differentiated price increase for the individual VW models, he writes_.


----------



## basilio (17 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think this idea by VW, is the only way they will be able to transition to BEV without a financial collapse, as long as the other manufacturers follow suite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's clever isn't it ?  It recognizes that ICE cars have an extra cost associated with them and attaches it to the selling price. I hope the idea catches on.

I suspect that the direct cost differential between ICEand EV cars will narrow very quickly and the reduce operational and maintenance costs of EV will become  clearly apparent - again within a few years.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2021)

basilio said:


> It's clever isn't it ?  It recognizes that ICE cars have an extra cost associated with them and attaches it to the selling price. I hope the idea catches on.
> 
> I suspect that the direct cost differential between ICEand EV cars will narrow very quickly and the reduce operational and maintenance costs of EV will become  clearly apparent - again within a few years.



It is far better than attaching a tax payer funded subsidy to electric cars, but hey that doesn't fit the rhetoric. Maybe you are becoming enlightened, there may be hope after all.__
The manufacturers should wear the cost of the transition, it shouldn't be something the taxpayer has to fund.
If the taxpayer wants a cheap low distance BEV, they shouldn't have to be subsidising someone who wants a Porsche Taycan.
The manufacturers will make more money out of the end product, due to less manufacturing costs, the taxpayer shouldn't have to be helping them.
It is the same as the NBN, the telecommunication companies should have been made to upgrade the copper network, meanwhile the taxpayer paid for it and now has to pay more to use it. Dumb $hit IMO.
Way too many media muppets, putting ideas into the general public muppets heads, IMO.


----------



## Macquack (17 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think this idea by VW, is the only way they will be able to transition to BEV without a financial collapse, as long as the other manufacturers follow suite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How noble of Volkswagon, the biggest fraudsters in the automotive industy.

VW have decided to put their own carbon tax on internal combustion engined vehicles and cut-out the middle man, being the government and me and you.

I hope the masses avoid Vee Dub like the plague.


----------



## basilio (17 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It is far better than attaching a tax payer funded subsidy to electric cars, but hey that doesn't fit the rhetoric. Maybe you are becoming enlightened, there may be hope after all.__




Not sure about that SP. VW's proposal is in effect a carbon tax .  They are calculating the additional CO2 emissions from ICE vehicles and putting a consumer cost to it.

In point of fact the soundest economic and environmental policy processes would ensure this carbon cost differential was applied across all products. The best economic models ensure that the government makes no money from the carbon tax but instead gives a  carbon tax refund to people who minimise their use of fossil fuels.

In fact this proposal was put forward by Republicans in the US but also supported in principle by many Democrats.  The first story examines in detail how this would work and why it makes sense environmentally and economically.









						Carbon Tax & Revenue Recycling: Revenue, Economic, & Distributional Implications
					

The purpose of a carbon tax is to price carbon emissions to reduce the amount of carbon in the atmosphere and mitigate the effects of climate change.




					taxfoundation.org
				




Refundable Carbon Tax - Not Perfect, But Good Enough​


Joseph Thorndike Contributor
Tax Notes
Contributor Group

Taxes
I’m a historian, a regular columnist for Tax Notes magazine, and a writer for the Tax Notes blog.

Carbon taxes are toxic, at least to most Republicans. But recently, a handful of GOP wise men, including several former Treasury secretaries, offered a challenge to party orthodoxy. Their plan? To impose a new carbon tax but refund the money to taxpayers before politicians get a chance to spend it.









						Refundable Carbon Tax - Not Perfect, But Good Enough
					

Carbon taxes are toxic, at least to most Republicans. But recently, a handful of GOP wise men, including several former Treasury secretaries, offered a challenge to party orthodoxy.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2021)

Macquack said:


> How noble of Volkswagon, the biggest fraudsters in the automotive industy.
> 
> VW have decided to put their own carbon tax on internal combustion vehicles and cut-out the middle man, being the government and me and you.
> 
> I hope the masses avoid Vee Dub like the plague.



No they are actually going to put the cost of their vehicles up, so it is up to the general public, if they want to pay more.
The other option is, the Government gives taxpayers money as an incentive, to buy VW BEV product.
I know which I'm happier with, obviously we see things differently.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2021)

basilio said:


> Not sure about that SP. VW's proposal is in effect a carbon tax .  They are calculating the additional CO2 emissions from ICE vehicles and putting a consumer cost to it.



Well all the vested interests would think that way.
In reality VW is increasing the cost of their product to cover the cost of transitioning to BEV's, the consumer doesn't have to buy their product therefore the consumer has a choice.
If a taxpayer funded concession is given to VW, to supply BEV's the consumer doesn't have a choice, they pay anyway through their subsidies.
But like I've said, we see things from polar opposites, I do mind who my money gets handed out to, mine was hard earned.


----------



## Macquack (17 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> No they are actually going to put the cost of their vehicles up, so it is up to the general public, if they want to pay more.
> The other option is, the Government gives taxpayers money as an incentive, to buy VW BEV product.
> I know which I'm happier with, obviously we see things differently.



"No", they are going to put up the cost of their ICE vehicles based on the cars CO2 emmissions. That is a carbon tax. You posted the article, did you read it?

Interestingly to me, we actually see some things the same. I agree with not subsidising electric vehicles. From what I have seen in the solar panel industry, the "sunny" companies pocket the subsidy that is supposed to flow on to the end consumer.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2021)

Macquack said:


> "No", they are going to put up the cost of their ICE vehicles based on the cars CO2 emmissions. That is a carbon tax. You posted the article, did you read it?
> 
> Interestingly to me, we actually see some things the same. I agree with not subsidising electric vehicles. From what I have seen in the solar panel industry, the "sunny" companies pocket the subsidy that is supposed to flow on to the end consumer.



The consumer has the choice whether to buy the more expensive VW ICE car, or any other make of car VW aren't the only manufacturer available, therefore the choice is completely in the hands of the consumer.
I would expect VW are going to option up their ICE car, to make the extra cost worthwhile, which in turn increases the profit margin on the car which then goes to the development of their BEV.
If VW or any other manufacturer is going to manage the transition from a product they have been making for a century, to a completely new product, while still fully supporting the old product there will be huge losses involved somewhere.
What VW are suggesting makes sense, if the Government starts handing out tax payer subsidies for BEV's, all that happens is the manufacturers just keep stamping out the same product.
Then the change over has to be forced by increasing tax on fossil fuels, registrations etc, which in the end just costs the taxpayer twice as much.
By the way I did read it that's why I posted it, I don't give a ratz ar$e if it's a carbon tax, as long as I don't have to pay it if I don't chose to buy a VW.
I will drive my current car untill it suits me to change over to a BEV, that will be when I can charge it during the day and run the house off it overnight. 
Just my opinion


----------



## Macquack (17 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I would expect VW are going to option up their ICE car, to make the extra cost worthwhile, which in turn increases the profit margin on the car which then goes to the development of their BEV.



Far dinkum, that sounds like something Scotty from marketing would say. You could get a job with VW with that spin.

Anyway, I generally agree with you accept where the only form of socialism you like is when the recipient is a company and not a person.


----------



## sptrawler (17 February 2021)

Macquack said:


> Far dinkum, that sounds like something Scotty from marketing would say. You could get a job with VW with that spin.
> 
> Anyway, I generally agree with you accept where the only form of socialism you like is when the recipient is a company and not a person.



Not really, I see socialism where someone who doesn't drive a car or own a car, has to pay taxes so someone who does gets a cheaper car. That is completely immoral to me.

If VW wants to charge more, that's fine those who want the badge pay for it, why you think the taxpayer is funding that I don't understand.
I would actually think it would reduce VW sales, so I don't even understand why you think it is good marketing, obviously a completely different take on things.

Like I said we see things differently, I don't think I'm right, or your right, just a different way of seeing the same issue.


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2021)

Ford Europe, to join the list of manufacturers changing to BEV's by 2030.








						Ford to sell only electric cars in Europe and UK by 2030
					

Group is largest carmaker to pledge all-electric sales on continent by end of decade




					www.irishtimes.com
				



From the article:

_Ford will stop selling cars in Europe and the UK with any form of internal combustion engine by 2030, in the most ambitious regional electrification target of any big manufacturer.
Every passenger car model will have an electric or plug-in hybrid option by 2026, but the company will go 100 per cent electric by the end of the decade, the US carmaker announced on Wednesday.
“We expect the majority of the vehicles will already be battery electric by 2026,” Ford’s European president Stuart Rowleysaid._
_Options_​_Ford is investing $22 billion (€18 billion) in electric technology by 2025 globally, and the announcement makes the group the largest carmaker so far to pledge all-electric sales by 2030 in the European region_.
_Volvo Cars, which is smaller than Ford, expects to be fully electric globally by 2030, while General Motors, which pulled out of Europe in 2017, plans to have all its passenger cars emission-free by 2035.

Ford’s commercial vehicles, which include the Transit van and the Ranger pick-up truck, will have electric and hybrid options on every model by 2024, but do not yet have a final phaseout date for traditional engine sales_.


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## Smurf1976 (18 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Then the change over has to be forced by increasing tax on fossil fuels, registrations etc, which in the end just costs the taxpayer twice as much.



Taxing fuel as a means of forcing change will also tend to hurt the poorer half of society who are least able to afford an EV or even a more efficient ICE car.

It may well be environmentally progressive but socially it's a very regressive approach.


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## Smurf1976 (18 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Ford Europe, to join the list of manufacturers changing to BEV's by 2030.



At this point I think there's enough on the EV bandwagon to declare the outcome and that is batteries, not hydrogen or synthetic fuels, seem the likely winner at least in the medium term.

Anyone who tries to go down any other path is akin to a Beta versus VHS scenario with batteries being the VHS equivalent. No matter how good any other approach might be technically, if other manufacturers have all gone with batteries then they'll be the winners in practice.


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## over9k (18 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Taxing fuel as a means of forcing change will also tend to hurt the poorer half of society who are least able to afford an EV or even a more efficient ICE car.
> 
> It may well be environmentally progressive but socially it's a very regressive approach.



Lol champagne socialists don't give a f**k about poor people


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## basilio (18 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Taxing fuel as a means of forcing change will also tend to hurt the poorer half of society who are least able to afford an EV or even a more efficient ICE car.
> 
> It may well be environmentally progressive but sociall*y it's a very regressive approach.  *



Certainly would be if such a tax raised billions of dollars for a government. 
The proposal for a net neutral carbon tax that added a carbon cost to products at the start of the production cycle ie on oil, coal , gas  and then distributed all raised funds as a flat dividend to every tax payer is a promising way to not have a regressive result.

It is widely supported and , as I noted earlier, a number of Republicans in the US have proposed such a measure.
Carbon Fee and Dividend​ 
_Carbon Fee and Dividend_ is an efficient and transparent carbon pricing mechanism that drives greenhouse gas emissions reductions across most sectors of the economy. A steadily-rising *fee *(e.g. $50 per tonne on CO2 emissions) is placed on the carbon content of fossil fuels upstream – at the mine, well, or port of entry. Unlike a carbon tax where revenue goes back to the government, in a fee and dividend the entire net revenue generated by the carbon price is returned directly to every citizen through monthly ‘*dividend*’ payments.
There are several benefits to this approach:
BENEFITS​



Investors, producers, consumers and governments are all given an incentive to increase energy efficiency and *reduce their consumption of carbon.*
The fee encourages greater investment, research and development and implementation of *clean energy* projects.
The *dividend *(100% of revenue) would protect lower and middle income families, maintain public support and give consumers greater purchasing power, enabling all households to play their part in the mitigation of climate change. 
A _dividend_ instead of a tax would distribute costs across the *economy* and stimulate economic growth, while giving a strong and positive signal to markets.
A carbon fee would allow new business opportunities to develop, produce, install and service innovative energy projects and create *thousands of new jobs*.
 https://au.citizensclimatelobby.org/australian-climate-dividend/


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## qldfrog (18 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> No matter how good any other approach might be technically



and this includes ICE , the narrative is EV, not hybrid, not hydrogen or efficient ICE so it will be in the west ;
funny thing is it could prove unfeasible but yet we will march on...
we can see west as one now, the EU and US/AU-NZ


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## Smurf1976 (18 February 2021)

basilio said:


> Certainly would be if such a tax raised billions of dollars for a government.



That's exactly what it does, fuel excise goes straight into consolidated revenue.

It's not a road user charge, it goes to the federal government not local councils who maintain most roads or states who do most of the rest, and it's at a rate too high, $184 per tonne of CO2 in the case of petrol and with GST on top, to be reasonably be considered as a sensible carbon tax especially given the lack of any comparable tax on other fossil fuels.

It's an issue that a future government will be forced to face. Excise revenue will diminish over time as EV's become more common and to the extent excise tax is still collected, it will in practice be mostly from the poorer half of society who tend to have older vehicles. A tax on those who don't have enough money to afford a modern car, which by then will by definition mean an EV. Politically, that's playing with fire no matter which side is in power at the time.

I intend that comment as a taxation one in regard to EV's not a political one since it applies equally regardless of which party's in government in the 2030's. At some point government's going to find itself forced to apply a user tax to EV's or drop the idea of taxing road travel altogether.


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## basilio (18 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's exactly what it does, fuel excise goes straight into consolidated revenue.
> 
> It's not a road user charge, it goes to the federal government not local councils who maintain most roads or states who do most of the rest, and it's at a rate too high, $184 per tonne of CO2 in the case of petrol and with GST on top, to be reasonably be considered as a sensible carbon tax especially given the lack of any comparable tax on other fossil fuels.
> 
> ...




Fuel excise has  always been an indirect tax which disproportionately hurt poorer people. In effect  everyone who runs a car pays the same tax.  I fully agree that in itself it is regressive and wrong.

However It would be interesting to hear some comment on the net neutral carbon tax *and dividend* proposal as fair way to redirect resources to low carbon alternatives.

The information is there. It doesn't raise taxes or overall costs because the  individual dividend side of the equation redistributes the tax back to the community on a per head basis. It does however quickly change investment and consumption decisions by making high carbon products more expensive.









						Home - Citizens' Climate Lobby Australia
					






					au.citizensclimatelobby.org


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## over9k (18 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's exactly what it does, fuel excise goes straight into consolidated revenue.
> 
> It's not a road user charge, it goes to the federal government not local councils who maintain most roads or states who do most of the rest, and it's at a rate too high, $184 per tonne of CO2 in the case of petrol and with GST on top, to be reasonably be considered as a sensible carbon tax especially given the lack of any comparable tax on other fossil fuels.
> 
> ...



I'm tipping it to be like when the power company comes & inspects your meter, just the odometer of your car instead.


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## Smurf1976 (18 February 2021)

basilio said:


> However It would be interesting to hear some comment on the net neutral carbon tax *and dividend* proposal as fair way to redirect resources to low carbon alternatives.



As I see it, the concept of taxing emissions is a very different one from the concept of taxing petrol specifically.

Emissions tax (or charge / price if we don't want to call it a tax) relies on the principle that all sources of CO2 are taxed (or priced) at the same rate per tonne emitted, thus encouraging a shift to options which emit the least (ideally no) CO2 in order to get the job done. Politically it's contentious but it can certainly be argued that there's a logical reasoning behind it and so on and especially so if it's revenue neutral.

Taxing petrol and diesel specifically, whilst not taxing any other source of emissions beyond a token amount at most, is a very different thing however. First because it is a significant revenue tax and second because, as EV's become more common, petrol ends up being a product mostly bought by the poorer half of society (some exceptions of course). 

We're not there yet but at some point government's going to have to decide whether to tax EV's or to alternatively do away with the idea of taxing vehicle use altogether (offset by some other tax in practice).


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## over9k (18 February 2021)

Hah. If there's one thing governments do NOT do, it's lower taxes/costs/etc for the everyday joe. 

They will continue to get their pound of flesh somehow.


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## sptrawler (18 February 2021)

Interesting article from someone with inside knowledge, that explains why government incentives shouldn't be used to push the BEV initiative.
As smurf and I have said the transition to renewables should be technically driven, not politically driven, that way the best outcome is achieved.
https://www.ft.com/content/8b6cd7b6-d817-4042-b6ee-aa4e40ebe40c


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## Smurf1976 (18 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As smurf and I have said the transition to renewables should be technically driven, not politically driven, that way the best outcome is achieved.





sptrawler said:


> As smurf and I have said the transition to renewables should be technically driven, not politically driven, that way the best outcome is achieved.



It’s a situation where detail is crucial but, due to technical complexity, easily lost.

SA over the past 7 days there’s been approximately 25 hours with renewable energy going to waste and about 7 hours with diesel generators running. That says it all really - it crucial to get the detail of charging EV’s right if the benefits they offer are to be maximised. That requires a technical approach not a political one.


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## sptrawler (18 February 2021)

Which is why the Government jumping in with subsidies and incentives skews the outcome.
The Government not getting heavily involved at this stage is the best move IMO.
Let the technicals be fully sorted before commiting taxpayers money in a big way.
At the moment every clean energy product is pushing for government subsidies.
For the government to try and pick a winner at this point, is playing with fire, it could be a winner or it could blow up in their face.
Currently the government seems to be co funding all options, which seems to be the sensible option IMO


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## basilio (22 February 2021)

Bit of a problem for Hyundai .  Seems they will need to recall and replace batteries in  about 100,000 electric vehicles. Cars, Buses.
Ouch !!









						Hyundai to replace electric car batteries after spate of fires, reports say
					

Hyundai reportedly agrees to replace batteries in all electric vehicles, including Kona and Ioniq, but it is not yet clear if this will extend to overseas markets such as Australia.




					thedriven.io


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## sptrawler (22 February 2021)

I wonder if that will get splashed all over the news.


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## sptrawler (22 February 2021)

Fuel cells are the poor relative of E.V's at the moment, but they aren't going away.


			https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/transport/sinopec-throws-itself-into-hydrogen-for-chinas-green-car-goals


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## over9k (23 February 2021)

FCEL


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## Smurf1976 (23 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I wonder if that will get splashed all over the news.



That depends on which news you read....


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## Smurf1976 (23 February 2021)

basilio said:


> Bit of a problem for Hyundai . Seems they will need to recall and replace batteries in about 100,000 electric vehicles. Cars, Buses.



Hopefully that's only relevant to LG batteries installed in EV's and doesn't apply to other LG batteries.

I've got one one installed at home. An LG battery that is, not a Hyundai EV, hence the thought.


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## Smurf1976 (23 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Fuel cells are the poor relative of E.V's at the moment, but they aren't going away.



There's also the lower tech approach - an internal combustion engine most certainly can be run on hydrogen.

Inferior to electric in terms of efficiency but a very proven method of moving a vehicle and one that's relatively cheap to manufacture.


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## basilio (23 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's also the lower tech approach - an internal combustion engine most certainly can be run on hydrogen.
> 
> Inferior to electric in terms of efficiency but a very proven method of moving a vehicle and one that's relatively cheap to manufacture.



Smurf  you do know that hydrogen fuel cell cars use electric motors as a matter or course?  I don't think it makes much economic or mechanical  sense to produce a ton of hydrogen and then use a more complex, inefficient ICE motor to move the vehicle.









						Hydrogen cars: What you need to know | RACV
					

Hydrogen has long been touted by some automotive industry stakholders and governments as a key technology to help drive emissions lower.




					www.racv.com.au


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## over9k (23 February 2021)

I think he might have meant as a retrofit type of thing like with LPG etc.


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## sptrawler (23 February 2021)

over9k said:


> I think he might have meant as a retrofit type of thing like with LPG etc.



Which in turn would help poor people, until there is an adequate supply of second hand BEV's and or the relative cost of BEV's drops to a point that those less affluent can afford them.


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## over9k (23 February 2021)

mm poor people can't pony up the cash though. 

It'd have to be one of those subsidised things like they've done with solar panels. Problem is that you'd get more spent on the conversion than the whole car would be worth. 

You could get it to work, you'd just have to implement it properly. Some kind of subsidised trade-in for a poorer person if they trade their old car in for a hydrogen powered one or something like that. 

You'd need to think about it and work out how to do it, but it could be done.


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## sptrawler (23 February 2021)

over9k said:


> mm poor people can't pony up the cash though.
> 
> It'd have to be one of those subsidised things like they've done with solar panels. Problem is that you'd get more spent on the conversion than the whole car would be worth.
> 
> ...



The conversion is very similar to the LPG conversion all the taxis used. The Government would have to subsidies it for a period of time until the market re adjusted and as I said a large supply of second hand BEV's became available and or the relative price of new ones dropped considerably.
It would still achieve the goal of removing the dependence on fossil fuel, but it would be more driven by a social initiative, than an economic one.
Also one would think a timeline would have to put into effect also, like the Government will subsidies H2 and gas conversion to ICE cars for x amount of years as petrol wont be available, after that time the subsidies stop. They could even have different time lines on the conversions as against the actual H2 fuel.
The other aspect of allowing the conversion of ICE vehicles for a period of time, it would give the auto repair industry time to readjust to the job losses.
All very interesting, but really who knows how it will develop, interesting times.


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## over9k (23 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The conversion is very similar to the LPG conversion all the taxis used. The Government would have to subsidies it for a period of time until the market re adjusted and as I said a large supply of second hand BEV's became available and or the relative price of new ones dropped considerably.
> It would still achieve the goal of removing the dependence on fossil fuel, but it would be more driven by a social initiative, than an economic one.



Hence the necessity of subsidies. 

I have no idea how difficult building a hydrogen infrastructure would be though. If we could just get rid of LPG and fill all the LPG tanks with hydrogen, then easy. If we have to build hydrogen tanks at every servo in the country though...


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## sptrawler (23 February 2021)

over9k said:


> Hence the necessity of subsidies.
> 
> I have no idea how difficult building a hydrogen infrastructure would be though. If we could just get rid of LPG and fill all the LPG tanks with hydrogen, then easy. If we have to build hydrogen tanks at every servo in the country though...



The hydrogen filling infrastructure will have to be built anyway, if we are going to adopt fuel cell vehicles in any great number.
The filling equipment would be the same for an ICE powered car fueled by H2 or a fuel cell car, both require an on board fuel tank.
It is just the ICE engine will need a H2 liquid to gas converter, before being fed into the engine.
Whereas the fuel cell runs the h2 through the cell which converts the gas to electricity that drives the car.

Here is an article on the ICE engine running on H2.
_Between 2005 - 2007, BMW tested a luxury *car* named the BMW *Hydrogen* 7, *powered* by a *hydrogen ICE*, which achieved 301 km/h (187 mph) in tests. At least two of these concepts have been manufactured. HICE forklift trucks have been demonstrated based on converted diesel internal combustion engines with direct injection_.

For those more interested, a more in depth article, that actually states the *facts*:


			https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15435075.2019.1685999


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## basilio (23 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The conversion is very similar to the LPG conversion all the taxis used. The Government would have to subsidies it for a period of time until the market re adjusted and as I said a large supply of second hand BEV's became available and or the relative price of new ones dropped considerably.
> It would still achieve the goal of removing the dependence on fossil fuel, but it would be more driven by a social initiative, than an economic one.
> Also one would think a timeline would have to put into effect also, like the Government will subsidies H2 and gas conversion to ICE cars for x amount of years as petrol wont be available, after that time the subsidies stop. They could even have different time lines on the conversions as against the actual H2 fuel.
> The other aspect of allowing the conversion of ICE vehicles for a period of time, it would give the auto repair industry time to readjust to the job losses.
> All very interesting, but really who knows how it will develop, interesting times.




Apparently the conversion process is very similar to LPG. Propbably the most critical issue will be a tank or storage solution that will hold sufficient gas to give good mileage and the cost of hydrogen as a fuel. LPG always worked well because it was very cheap. It would be unreasonable of people to change to a hydrogen fuelled car unless there was some economic benefit.

file:///C:/Users/PCUSER~1/AppData/Local/Temp/ASEE_2012_Conference-Hydrogen_Engine_Paper-Revised_Final_Copy_3-12-2012.pdf








						Hydrogen engine - Pure Energy Centre
					

RUN YOUR INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE WITH OUR HYDROGEN ENGINE SOLUTIONS Our Hydrogen Engine offer We convert petrol engines to run on hydrogen. Types: Two types available, a hydrogen engine conversion for stationary and transport applications. Use: Similar to any standard engine, the only...




					pureenergycentre.com


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## sptrawler (23 February 2021)

basilio said:


> Apparently the conversion process is very similar to LPG.



Which is what @Smurf1976  and I said.



basilio said:


> Propbably the most critical issue will be a tank or storage solution that will hold sufficient gas to give good mileage and the cost of hydrogen as a fuel. LPG always worked well because it was very cheap. It would be unreasonable of people to change to a hydrogen fuelled car unless there was some economic benefit.



Or a Government subsidy, which is what @over9k and I said.



basilio said:


> file:///C:/Users/PCUSER~1/AppData/Local/Temp/ASEE_2012_Conference-Hydrogen_Engine_Paper-Revised_Final_Copy_3-12-2012.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## over9k (23 February 2021)

In the meantime, FCEL has run hard, and I need to find some others to buy too.


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## Smurf1976 (23 February 2021)

basilio said:


> Smurf you do know that hydrogen fuel cell cars use electric motors as a matter or course?



Absolutely.

Thing is however, we’ve already got an entire fleet of vehicles almost all of which have internal combustion engines. Cars, trucks, buses etc.

Further, there's an entire manufacturing supply chain globally set up to make them and it's still pumping out thousands of them daily. EV's are a thing, but most new cars which hit the roads today have a combustion engine in them.

Average age of a car in Australia is just on 10 years with some variation between states. That suggests _average_ lifespan of about 20 years but it'll be longer for those which don't succumb to an early fate due to being crashed, stolen, having a tree fall on them or whatever. Perhaps not the case in the wealthier areas of the big cities, but go to the poorer suburbs and seeing a 1990's car that's still in daily use isn't at all unusual.

Buses last 25 years in Australian public transport use (at least that's the figure for some fleets) but then usually either end up on school bus runs or shipped off to the Third World.

Trucks much the same. 25 - 30 years life in Australia but in some places overseas it's considerably longer.

Add all that up and in a "do nothing" scenario the use of petrol and diesel is going to diminish very slowly. It'll be more akin to the slow decline of newspapers or smoking, it won't be anything like the rapid demise of 35mm film or VHS tapes. There's still a point in exploring for more oil, building refineries and tankers and so on in that scenario, the industry's decline will be a very long and drawn out one.

Which leads my thoughts straight down the track of conversion of existing vehicles in use to run on hydrogen either outright or as a mix. That's a workaround to the environmental and possibly physical supply constraints (only needs a war to break out.....) associated with oil. An inefficient workaround yes, but a workaround nonetheless.

It's proven from a technical perspective. 15 years ago in Tasmania the University with practical and financial support from the Hydro converted a Toyota Corolla to hydrogen, using its existing petrol engine, and entered it as a bona fide competitor in Targa (an annual ~2000km staged car race around Tassie on public roads). There was no thought of winning, that wasn't going to happen when you're driving a Corolla in competition with performance cars and professional racing drivers, but it was publicly visible demonstration that the concept works and can be done.

Conversion of a petrol engine to straight hydrogen is doable since there's a lot of similarities there.

For a diesel engine it's more complex, since the compression ignition used in a diesel doesn't work with hydrogen (also doesn't work with any other gas). There's a workaround however and that's to use diesel pilot ignition. In short, that involves the engine running almost entirely on gas (eg hydrogen or some other gas) but with a tiny amount of diesel injected to ignite the gas. The concept's well proven - for example the 12 x 17.5 MW internal combustion engines at Barker Inlet power station (owned by AGL) use that principle with natural gas as the fuel, a tiny amount of diesel ignites the gas for the power stroke (and they can run on up to 100% diesel as a backup if the gas supply is disrupted etc).

Overall - I'm not suggesting that the world sticks with ICE forever and just changes the fuel, but the concept could have some value depending on how urgent a move away from petroleum is considered to be. If hydrogen is going to have a role anyway, then infrastructure to supply it will need to be built and that opens up the possibility of using it for other purposes such as conversion of existing engines.

Also not related to vehicles so off topic but there's at least one large factory I'm aware of that's investigating the idea of using hydrogen to fuel existing furnaces. They were originally built to burn heavy fuel oil, later converted to natural gas, they're now investigating hydrogen as a partial or total replacement. If it went ahead then they'd likely produce the hydrogen on site themselves. Note in this context that using electricity as the heat source is technically problematic, hence the investigation of hydrogen despite the loss of efficiency. I don't think they've said anything publicly so I won't either but it's a large operation in the metals industry.


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## sptrawler (23 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> . The concept's well proven - for example the 12 x 17.5 MW internal combustion engines at Barker Inlet power station (owned by AGL) use that principle with natural gas as the fuel, a tiny amount of diesel ignites the gas for the power stroke (and they can run on up to 100% diesel as a backup if the gas supply is disrupted etc).



Carnarvon power station in W.A, was converted to run the same way, in the mid 1980's.


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## Smurf1976 (23 February 2021)

To clarify the thinking I have regarding converting things, take a bus manufactured this year, 2021.

Like most, it'll have a diesel engine in it.

It'll be on route service in an Australian capital city through to 2046. After that it'll be sold off for use as a school bus, in private use or shipped to whatever Third World country. All up, it'll be on the roads through to 2060.

If a hydrogen conversion was retrofitted a decade from now then that gets 15 years' use as a public transport vehicle out of it whilst retaining the ability to run on diesel.

That approach could well be a practical one to the extent there's a desire to phase out the use of petrol, diesel etc sooner than would naturally occur or if the economics were to simply stack up of their own accord.

For cars it probably won't make sense but for things like buses it may well do so. A vehicle that does high mileage, is physically large and which returns to a depot at least once a day every night is the perfect candidate for any sort of fuel conversion.


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## basilio (23 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> To clarify the thinking I have regarding converting things, take a bus manufactured this year, 2021.
> 
> Like most, it'll have a diesel engine in it.
> 
> ...




Absolutely makes sense for buses and heavy transport.  The tricky part will be providing Hydrogen at a cost effective price relative to diesel/petrol.

Perhaps another alternative from an engineering POV  could be replacing the diesel motor with an electric motor and having a moderate sized battery bank for city trips ? Or a capacity to fast charge the batteries at say mid shift ? Certainly the overall investment in the truck body should be kept if possible


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## Smurf1976 (23 February 2021)

basilio said:


> Perhaps another alternative from an engineering POV could be replacing the diesel motor with an electric motor and having a moderate sized battery bank for city trips ? Or a capacity to fast charge the batteries at say mid shift ? Certainly the overall investment in the truck body should be kept if possible



It's one of those things where I expect we'll see multiple approaches. Eg:

New bus being built = electric.

Near new = might be viable to convert to electric.

Mid-life = financially probably stacks up better to just convert the existing engine to hydrogen and leave the rest as is. That's assuming hydrogen infrastructure is going to be built anyway and thus has long term value.

20+ years old = don't worry about it, just stick with diesel and focus on the new ones.

Etc.


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2021)

Slightly off topic, but shows that H2 isn't being completely overlooked as a fuel for buses.








						Hydrogen buses, microgrids, share in $22m of WA funding for renewable hydrogen
					

Resources companies dominate list of successful recipients of $22m in WA government funding for hydrogen fuelled transport initiatives.




					reneweconomy.com.au
				



From the article:
“The State Government and Renewable Hydrogen Council are keen to see Western Australia accelerate our hydrogen industry through these nine initiatives and the new 2030 target,” Western Australian premier Mark McGowan said in a statement.

“Major export markets are seeking hydrogen much sooner than expected, and we are in a prime position to join the supply chain. Investing in our clean energy future will not only create jobs and training opportunities for Western Australians, but will further diversify our economy.”

Successful grant recipients include gas company ATCO, which will receive $1 million to add a green hydrogen refuelling station to its hydrogen production facility in Jandakot.
Fortescue Metals will receive $2 million in funding, contributing to a $32 million total investment, in hydrogen transport at Fortescue’s Christmas Creek iron ore mine.

Fortescue plans to purchase ten hydrogen fuel cell buses, replacing a fleet of diesel uses, at the iron ore mine, and will establish a solar powered plant for hydrogen production at the site. It will form part of the company’s efforts to achieve a target of net zero emissions by 2040, announced in June. A 60MW solar farm is being built nearby.
The New York based heavy hydrogen vehicle manufacturer HYZON Motors has been selected as the supplier of the fuel cell powered buses, with the company announcing that the buses will be equipped with its higher powered fuel cells, generally used in trucks, to allow for like-for-like performance replacement for the previous diesel fleet


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## Value Collector (24 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> To clarify the thinking I have regarding converting things, take a bus manufactured this year, 2021.
> 
> Like most, it'll have a diesel engine in it.
> 
> ...



Unless diesel becomes prohibitively expensive either due to actual scarcity or taxes, while batteries become cheaper and it becomes cheaper to just replace the old smokers with battery electric.


----------



## sptrawler (24 February 2021)

This article brings up the pivotal issue, that will ramp up the uptake of BEV's.
Once the vehicle to grid architecture is standard issue with the BEV's, the consumer demand will be exponential IMO.
To me it is a no brainer, once the generation companies, have a way of being able to use the BEV's batteries as a backup storage I'm sure the subsidies will come. It will save the companies a fortune, not having to install as many stationary batteries.
This all comes back to waiting until the technology is fully developed and tested, before throwing billions of dollars at BEV's and charging networks, trails are being done and a standard will be adopted IMO. Time will tell.








						Grid must get itself ready for batteries on wheels and V2G technology, report says
					

ANU report calls for fast-tracking reforms to pave the way for electric vehicle to grid (V2G) technology, crucial for managing a future with millions of batteries on wheels.




					thedriven.io
				



From the article:
_A major new report has called on Australia’s energy market regulators and distribution network companies to fast-track reforms to grid connection standards and constraints, to pave the way for electric vehicle to grid (V2G) technology that will be crucial for managing a future with millions of batteries on wheels.
V2G, broadly speaking, is the concept of discharging an EV battery in order to serve a secondary purpose – which puts V2G in the same sort of basket as distributed storage, solar, and other forms of demand response.
But the ANU report argues that even at this nascent stage – and even despite Australia’s laggard status – it is vital to “right size” electricity market rules and technology standards help deliver the value and minimise the risks associated with mass EV uptake.

Locally, the ANU has been working with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency on a REVS trial, that will install 51 bi-directional chargers for a fleet of 51 V2G capable vehicles in the ACT.
On the technical side, Sturmberg says the “crux for V2G” – and where he sees the greatest opportunities for ongoing improvements for all DER – is with bi-directional chargers, which are also a major part of the conversation around distributed solar and storage.

“These are still in an earlier phase of the technology development curve than many of the other power electronic converters used to connect generation and storage to the power system and as such lag behind in their functionalities and cost,” he said.

“In particular, there is more work to be done to enable a greater range of grid support functionalities, such as reactive power support, and building backup power functionalities, such as grid forming and UPS.”

“The relatively high power requirements of EV charging will change societal electricity consumption patterns and if not managed well will place significant strain on the grid,” the report says.

“However, the large storage capacity of EV batteries presents an opportunity for better grid management, especially considering the long periods of time that most vehicles spend parked. Vehicle to grid (V2G) is a new technology that promises to connect these dots_.”


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> it is vital to “right size” electricity market rules and technology standards help deliver the value and minimise the risks associated with mass EV uptake.



What really wouldn't be good is to put a substantial number of vehicles and chargers out there and then find out there's a problem with them requiring some sort of crude, messy and expensive workaround as has ended up being the case with solar at least in one state.

So yes, get it right as early on as possible definitely.


----------



## sptrawler (25 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> What really wouldn't be good is to put a substantial number of vehicles and chargers out there and then find out there's a problem with them requiring some sort of crude, messy and expensive workaround as has ended up being the case with solar at least in one state.
> 
> So yes, get it right as early on as possible definitely.



That could happen so easily if there was a massive government incentive scheme put in place, IMO it would end up an absolute shambles, the BEV's really do have to work together and to do that takes a lot of planning.
If they can be used as grid storage, it will make them a brilliant asset, for the renewables.


----------



## over9k (25 February 2021)

Yeah, grid storage that discharges when you plug it in after getting home from work and firing up the stove/tv/heater/etc that then flips over to charging from 10pm-7am or something like that and you have it nailed.

Only problem is that batteries can obviously go through so many charge/discharge cycles before being kaput, but it sure beats installing a powerwall/battery bank at your house.

Problem is a normal 240v socket just doesn't have the juice to do this so we'd either be looking at the whole grid becoming 3 phase or... something else.

I suspect this area would be @sptrawler's wheelhouse


----------



## qldfrog (25 February 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That could happen so easily if there was a massive government incentive scheme put in place, IMO it would end up an absolute shambles, the BEV's really do have to work together and to do that takes a lot of planning.
> If they can be used as grid storage, it will make them a brilliant asset, for the renewables.



Overall, a dream solution: renewable pumping power into the grid, sucked by cars, then reused during the night from the car batteries until early morning which bring back the issues:


By 7 am the BEV is empty or not fully charged during the morning commute, or long trip to see auntie in her covid 31 secured aged care on the GC
So you as the BEV owner need to keep control ..which politics being what they are now will quickly become a socialism vs individual freedom battle.
The other part less publicized is that this transfers costs onto the bev owner.
A charge discharge cycle is not free, we have a ,from memory ,10% loss between grid loss, charger loss,and actual chemical reaction loss..in heat...i did a full number analysis about that in a post here long ago.
So the BEV owner needs to receive more for his feedin tariff than consumption, and by a bit if you include actual asset costs.
Then a charge discharge cycle destroy your battery and charger.even the best latest ones.it is not consequences free.

I believe the BEV owners are lining up to become the next suckers.add a new tax for EV via rego and the car drivers will remain the cash cows ,they are now , not only for governments.. but also for power companies.
Sad
i hope it will be quickly possible for household to work disconnected from the grid and become autonomous but suspect we will still be made to pay,
as here in Qld for water where in Brisbane area, you are charged 1k a year without being connected to the water grid/sewerage...because the grid is available to you....
Time will tell but less and less keen to go EV as this develops.


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## Macquack (25 February 2021)

qldfrog said:


> as here in Qld for water where in Brisbane area, you are charged 1k a year without being connected to the water grid/sewerage...because the grid is available to you....
> 
> Could you elaborate on the "1k a year"? Are you referring to council rates?


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2021)

The cars of the future. The highs and lows.









						Cars of the future: The hype, the high hopes, and the sobering reality
					

Are everyday driverless, electric cars just around the corner? Is a car sharing revolution underway? Why some of the hype around the future of car travel hasn't become reality just yet, and the challenges we need to overcome.




					www.abc.net.au
				





_"How green an electric car is, compared to a petrol car, depends on how green the grid is you're charging it [from]," Kilvert says.


 There are calls for a national rollout of fast charging sites like this one at Yass.(ABC: Ben Deacon)
Your home solar might be able to help.

"However, electric cars, they have huge batteries, they need a lot of energy to charge those batteries — more than any household solar system array can provide," Kilvert says.

"So you're still going to need supplementary power … and that usually means some element of dirty fuel."

There are also issues of the demands on the power network. One charging station built in Adelaide a few years ago was equivalent to adding 100 new homes to the grid.

The US is experimenting with using an electric car as a back up battery for excess solar power, that can then be fed into the grid at times of high demand."_


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## rederob (25 February 2021)

Yes, @qldfrog is referring to council rates as water and sewerage fixed costs are a huge component here (probably elsewhere too).
Even if we were electricity and water self sufficient we cannot avoid the fixed fees.

@qldfrog's other points are just part of his ongoing spleen event against renewables.
It will be many years before the overnight drain of electricity from the grid into BEVs is close to a problem, and planning for the scenario has been underway for some time, as is shown in the below graphic from AEMO's ISP:



So the challenge over coming years is to better manage the integration of distributed energy resources into the grid, as @Smurf1976 has elaborated on many times.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The cars of the future. The highs and lows.
> 
> _"However, electric cars, they have huge batteries, they need a lot of energy to charge those batteries — more than any household solar system array can provide," Kilvert says._




My own experience disproves what this guy said.

He is assuming that the average person will be charging from 0% to 100% every day, but almost no one burns an entire tank of fuel each day, on average it takes people 7 to 9 days to use a full tank of fuel.

So if it took you 7 to 10 days to use a full battery even the smallest solar systems could produce more than enough to keep you charged.

I just got my latest Electricity bill, and I got a $15 credit and that’s with an electric car, electric hot water, heavy use of Aircon, electric cooking and everything else.

some of these people just don’t think before they speak, and are spreading a lot of misinformation that gets repeated constantly.

I have an 8.2 KWH system so it’s a little larger than average, but it produces easily much much more than is required to charge the car, The Air con actually uses more than my car.


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## qldfrog (25 February 2021)

@Macquack Sadly no, we are not taking rate but the SE QLD Uniwater monopoly employing the old Labour mayor of Brisbane and other rotten politicians:
when you are in an area where you *can *be connected to the water grid and sewerage , while NOT connected with 0 usage, you still have to fork out  currently roughly $1k a year.For my warehouse, the amount was last March $252.11 a quarter.yep no use, no sewerage connected, no pipe connected, just because they have a pipe going past your block.
I nearly though about sending them a bill for website maintenance I can potentially offer them [if they want to....]
This is not unheard of in our new Reset in progress world. So I expect  within 10y to see people paying a "could be connected " electricity bill if they try to get off the grid in places where the infrastructure exists.


----------



## rederob (25 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


> My own experience disproves what this guy said.
> 
> He is assuming that the average person will be charging from 0% to 100% every day, but almost no one burns an entire tank of fuel each day, on average it takes people 7 to 9 days to use a full tank of fuel.
> 
> ...



We wanted to add more solar panels, but it would breach our existing FID contract arrangement (52 cents/Kw). 
And I know it is off topic, but just installed 3x37watt DC fans to reduce aircon use.  Running at level 2 - 9watts - throws out greater airflow than the previous 80watt AC fans running flat out, plus is dead quiet.  Running these DC fans flat out means paperwork flies off tables!
Now we just need a quiet DC refrigerator and pool pump and our electricity bills would flatline.


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## orr (25 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The cars of the future. The highs and lows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Dr Nunes, if quoted correctly, clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. On Feb 3 in an interveiw with Sandy Munro, Elon Musk gives the number of lines of code to run the neural net of the FSD in Teslas vehicals at circa 300k (go straight to the 16min mark)...
Shirley Meng is a fine mind and well worth the effort to keep up with...
For those wanting infromation as to where we are with 'million mile battey's'  search same and add Jeff Dahn...spoiler, it been here a while.
I'm watching the progress of the Apteara an electric vehical that for many circumstances may never need charging infastructure...
& thanks to VCollector for putting the sword into the Solar charging inadequasy line of drivel ...

This ABC piece sings well to the do nothing EV policy's of the current government and a credulious audience...  _cue_'

And Frog (though off topic) ; that water line going past your WhareHouse might come in handy if the Fire Department ever need it to put it out or protect it. Or you may be the type that likes to watch it burn...


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## SirRumpole (25 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


> My own experience disproves what this guy said.
> 
> He is assuming that the average person will be charging from 0% to 100% every day, but almost no one burns an entire tank of fuel each day, on average it takes people 7 to 9 days to use a full tank of fuel.
> 
> ...




I'm not going to argue the technicalities, but I doubt if your experience is typical of the average Joe who commutes say 100km to work each day, plus running around taking kids to school and sports and shopping at the weekend.

Extrapolating from one case to the entire population is silly.

Not that I'm commenting on the overall accuracy of the article, just saying that herd behaviour can't be predicted from one case.


----------



## rederob (25 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm not going to argue the technicalities, but I doubt if your experience is typical of the average Joe who commutes say 100km to work each day, plus running around taking kids to school and sports and shopping at the weekend.
> 
> Extrapolating from one case to the entire population is silly.
> 
> Not that I'm commenting on the overall accuracy of the article, just saying that herd behaviour can't be predicted from one case.



The average daily passenger vehicle commute is around 35 kilometres, translating to about 1050 kilometres per month, or refuelling twice a month.
Put in a different context for BEVs, they could run at twice the average commute and never need topping up on weekdays or at high demand times.  Or, as @Value Collector notes, just drip feed a bit in as required during the week at times when prices are cheapest (because you can choose that parameter in your charging setup), or when you want to draw from your household's "free" solar.  (Obviously it's only "free" after payback, but that's seldom more than 6 years on a system that will give you another 20 years on top of that.)


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## Value Collector (25 February 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm not going to argue the technicalities, but I doubt if your experience is typical of the average Joe who commutes say 100km to work each day, plus running around taking kids to school and sports and shopping at the weekend.
> 
> Extrapolating from one case to the entire population is silly.
> 
> Not that I'm commenting on the overall accuracy of the article, just saying that herd behaviour can't be predicted from one case.



If you are driving 100km to work I dont think you are average either, but you would still only be charging a full battery worth every 3 or 4 days, which a small solar system can handle.

Also if you are at work every day, you would be using more electricity to power your car than I do, but you wouldn’t be running your aircon etc at home as much as me, so it balances out,


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2021)

Also, currently 0% of the population have the ability to drill and refine their own crude oil at home, so every petrol car owner relies on huge external drilling and refining Infrastructure and fleets of trucks and ships to bring their fuel to their town, so I don’t really see a problem with some people relying on electricity produced by the grid to power their cars, because they are already relying on external agencies to produce their petrol.

All it takes is a steady increase in electricity  network investment, and a steady reduction in crude oil network investment.


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## Smurf1976 (25 February 2021)

So far as grid electricity is concerned, some observations:

With the exception of Tasmania where pretty much everything concerning energy is different, for every other state electricity has a 15% to 23% market share of secondary energy. For Australia as a whole it's 19%. In Tasmania the figure is 39%.

Secondary energy - that's energy supplied to end users. So it's electricity as distinct from the fuel used to generate it, it's petrol sold as distinct from the crude oil used to make it, etc. It's energy as supplied to end users (all end users except oil refineries, power stations etc).

In every mainland state the use of petroleum greatly exceeds that of electricity on an energy supplied basis, nationally it's about double, and even in Tasmania oil consumption almost matches electricity.

In some states, notably Victoria, WA and the NT, the direct use of natural gas is also greater than the use of electricity. In Queensland, NSW and SA it's less significant than electricity but still major as such. Even in Tasmania it's significant albeit only a few % of the total.

Now where all that goes is that a move away from fossil fuels, in practice primarily refined petroleum and natural gas, at the secondary energy level means more electricity. While there are certainly efficiency gains to be had by switching, since electricity tends to be more efficient at the point of use, ultimately it's still a very substantial increase in electricity consumption. No matter how efficient it is, an EV or an electric hot water system certainly uses more electricity than a petrol car or gas water heater.

Taking Victoria as an example, during mid-winter total electricity consumption averaged over 7 days reaches about 1000 GWh or the equivalent of 6000 MW constantly. That's all electricity used for all purposes industrial, commercial, residential and transport. For reference the absolute peak electricity demand in Victoria on an instantaneous basis is about 10,400 MW.

Meanwhile gas space heaters, not any other use of gas just space heating alone, sits at an average 10,000 MW for weeks on end during winter in Victoria. That's just heating and just gas heating at that. Then there's industrial use of gas, gas used for water heating and cooking.

Chance that we're going to see the average Victorian house going fully electric and off the grid using their own rooftop solar? Essentially zero in practice and it's winter that's the killer. Could be done in summer but to get sufficient space heating and hot water for an average existing home, under winter conditions of poor solar yield, it's not outright impossible but it's impractical for most.

Now add EV charging on top of that. Again it's doable if you live somewhere with lots of sun and you don't need much heating or cooling. For an average house with average occupants though it's no-go, you won't get sufficient solar yield during the cold months to run the house and charge an EV on top of that and even in summer you'll struggle during a heatwave due to cooling load.

Long story short = the grid is here to stay, of that I'm extremely confident. The details of how it's configured and how electricity is generated are undergoing massive change but the basic concept of power stations of whatever form (eg counting a wind or solar farm as a power station since that's effectively what it is) generating electricity as a business and with a network distributing that to consumers isn't going away. Rooftop solar isn't going to put the industry out of business just as home veggie gardens haven't put supermarkets or even fruit and vegetable shops out of business.

Only real exception is places in the middle of nowhere where installing a great big solar array, on a scale that simply isn't practical in the suburbs, is the cheapest means of supplying electricity. Even there though, odds are you'll find some "cheating" in the form of a wood fire for heating etc.

I see no problem with any of that, just pointing it out really. So far as EV's are concerned, the vast majority will be charged on the grid. That the owner happens to also have some solar panels on the grid doesn't change that - both are on the grid not off it.

To that I'll add that charging EV's is one of those things that can be done the right way or it can be done the wrong way and cause mayhem with the grid. The key there isn't so much about working out how to do it, but in making sure that what needs to be done actually is done. Get it right from the start, don't wait until there's enough of them to cause an actual problem then try and fix it.

Simply strongly discouraging charging during the peaks will be adequate in the medium term - it doesn't need to be a barrier to EV adoption, just need some education and perhaps $ persuasion to ensure consumers do the right thing.

In SA today there's been renewable energy going to waste since about midday and there's been a bit in Victoria too. But then some diesel and a lot of gas-fired plant was running this morning - if done well the timing of when EV's are charged has the potential to get better use out of renewable generation facilities already built, we can get more energy out of them without spending a cent on new investment. Or, if done poorly, it has the potential to put the lights out and often the gap between the two is just a few hours.


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## Smurf1976 (25 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


> currently 0% of the population have the ability to drill and refine their own crude oil at home



I did try extracting oil from shale once.

Went the site of a former oil shale mine and processing works, found what I thought were shale rocks lying on the surface as I expected there'd be, took them home and tried extracting some oil.

Long story short = got some flammable vapour out of it certainly but not in an economical manner and not in a form that was of any use. Did end up with a huge amount of vapour coming out of the apparatus though and when lit that burned nicely with a yellow-orange flame.


----------



## rederob (25 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Did end up with a huge amount of vapour coming out of the apparatus though and when lit that burned nicely with a yellow-orange flame.



That sentence should never stand alone.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> No matter how efficient it is, an EV or an electric hot water system certainly uses more electricity than a petrol car or gas water heater.



You have to remember that refining petrol and other petroleum products does consume large amounts of electricity and natural gas.

BP says that roughly 10% of the carbon emissions related to the fuel they sell come from purchased electricity, they also use natural gas in their refineries.

So it would be possible to lower emissions and save resources if instead of using Electricity + Natural gas + crude oil just to make petrol and diesel that gets used inefficiently in combustion engines, we instead used that electricity to charge cars directly , snd redirected the the natural gas and crude oil resources to power plants to create electricity to charge cars.

Yes, we would still be releasing carbon, but we would be getting more KM's of driving per tonne of carbon.

At the 1.20 mark of this video BP refer to the large amounts of electricity they use.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 February 2021)

Value Collector said:


> You have to remember that refining petrol and other petroleum products does consume large amounts of electricity and natural gas.



Agreed it does but still nowhere near as much as using electricity directly.

Eg winter in Victoria there's that 10GW of average gas load for space heating alone, versus 6GW of electrical load for all purposes the majority of which isn't related to gas production. Gas supplies far more energy than it consumes in its production.

Lots of people have tried to put a figure on it. I'm cautious about that since a lot depends on the detail.

Eg where the crude oil is produced geographically, whether that's from lots of little wells or a few big ones (since every well needs energy to drill it), whether the oil is taken away from the field by pipeline or in trucks etc.

At the refining stage there's a difference depending on the product. Eg there's more input energy to produce 98 RON petrol than to produce 91, kerosene or diesel.

Then there's location of consumption. Eg shipping oil from the Middle East to Singapore to refine, then shipping to Adelaide, then road freight to Alice Springs or Broken Hill would be a lot more than taking oil from a local source, refining it locally and taking it in a tanker truck to a service station in the same town or city.

Etc. A huge number of variables there.


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## sptrawler (25 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That depends on which news you read....



Well smurf it is now Thursday and still very little news on the Hyundia battery issue.
Lol lucky it isnt a Jeep, or any other ICE vehicle.😉


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## Smurf1976 (26 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> In SA today there's been renewable energy going to waste since about midday



Labouring the point a bit here I know, but to back up what I'm saying and put some detail around it.....

I don't have an EV but I do have something far simpler to charge, that being a storage hot water system. Smurf being Smurf, I've set it up to be as grid (and environmentally) friendly as practical. No elaborate control systems, that would be even better, but simply by means of a simple timer and basing it on average conditions over 12 months.

Looking at how that actually performed over the past week, in terms of what natural resource was being used to generate the power at the margin, that is what was turned up slightly higher than it otherwise would have been because my water heater was drawing power, it makes the point pretty well.

Location = SA.

Friday 19 February - marginal source was gas-fired generation in the Adelaide metropolitan area.

Saturday 20 February - marginal source was hydro generation in the Snowy Mountains and in Tasmania.

Sunday 21 February, Monday 22 February and Tuesday 23 February - marginal source was wind /  solar generation in SA that would otherwise have gone to waste.

Wednesday 24 February - marginal source was coal-fired generation in Victoria and NSW.

Thursday 25 February - wind / solar in SA.

In contrast, running it just a few hours earlier or later would result in 100% of the marginal electricity production being from fossil fuels since the time window when there's renewables going to waste is a few hours. Those results are from my "dumb" approach based on averages over 12 months and the use of a simple timer, a dynamic "smart" approach taking into account live conditions ought to be able to achieve considerably better.

Now that's for a water heater but same principle applies to anything which can "download" energy at basically any time and store it. The detail of that, when it's done, is important in determining both the real financial cost (as distinct from what a consumer pays on a flat rate) and the environmental impact.

So that's what I'm on about basically. For EV's a clever approach to charging them can deliver real benefits over a "dumb" approach even just using the existing electricity supply infrastructure that's already built. It's just a matter of being clever about it and to that end I draw the attention of those in Victoria, Tasmania and the ACT to this:





__





						Electric Vehicle Trial | EV Grid | Australia
					

EV Grid is a trial being conducted by a group of Electricity Distributors in Victoria, ACT, and Tasmania




					www.evgrid.com.au
				




This is an "official" trial backed by Evoenergy, TasNetworks, AusNet Services, Jemena and United Energy who between them own and operate the electricity network in the ACT, Tasmania and Victoria.

Cost to participants = zero and you get to keep the provided smart charger (value $2200 including installation which is also included).

Further to all that, given the volatile nature of electricity pricing at the wholesale level, there are definite opportunities for companies to operate in this space via a "smart" approach to EV charging.


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## over9k (26 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> So far as grid electricity is concerned, some observations:
> 
> With the exception of Tasmania where pretty much everything concerning energy is different, for every other state electricity has a 15% to 23% market share of secondary energy. For Australia as a whole it's 19%. In Tasmania the figure is 39%.
> 
> ...



So in summary, charge way more for peak consumption hours and less for overnight etc.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 February 2021)

over9k said:


> So in summary, charge way more for peak consumption hours and less for overnight etc.



Yep - with a complicating factor that the presence of wind and solar changes when the system is most or least stressed since not only is consumption changing throughout the day but so is available supply.

The basic logic behind a "smart" approach to charging is that instead of taking wind and solar energy when they generate, storing that via big batteries or hydro, then charging EV's at a set time which isn't necessarily when the sun's shining or the wind's blowing it would be easier and cheaper to instead just put the energy straight into the EV when the wind blows and the sun shines thus cutting out the rather costly middle step. 

For a large portion of users who are traveling relatively short distances each day and with cars parked most of the time that ought to work and is a cheap way of doing it.  They're not going to care when it charges so long as it does.

For those who do need a full charge by a set time, or right now in the case of public fast chargers, that's not a problem it just means they're requiring more infrastructure so would in practice be charged at a higher price.

Essentially the same concept as any business situation where there's an "express" service at a high price and a much cheaper "join the queue" option. Most will pick the cheap one to save costs but the premium "get it done ASAP" option is there for those who actually need it.


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## over9k (26 February 2021)

So have the price move along with how much the wind/sun is contributing to the grid at the time? 

Just have something on the power company's website like "current power costs" so people can check in and decide to plug their car in or not.


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## Value Collector (26 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Yep - with a complicating factor that the presence of wind and solar changes when the system is most or least stressed since not only is consumption changing throughout the day but so is available supply.
> 
> The basic logic behind a "smart" approach to charging is that instead of taking wind and solar energy when they generate, storing that via big batteries or hydro, then charging EV's at a set time which isn't necessarily when the sun's shining or the wind's blowing it would be easier and cheaper to instead just put the energy straight into the EV when the wind blows and the sun shines thus cutting out the rather costly middle step.
> 
> ...



An Ev can recover the average daily drive in about 1 or 2 hours with a good home charger, but it may be plugged in for up to 16 hours a day.

With smart internet connected chargers it would be easy time that 1 - 2 hours to when it makes sense for the grid, even if it just came on every few days.

AGL and other folk could just offer super cheap rates for people that put their smart charger it “super saver” mode etc, and penalty rates for people that don’t.

there is already a charger on the market called the “Zappi” that connects to your home solar and only charges when you produce excess solar.

—————-

there is already an electricity retailer that offers free electricity on weekends between 12pm - 2pm, I am sure they would rather be directing there surplus during these times to smart chargers.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 February 2021)

over9k said:


> So have the price move along with how much the wind/sun is contributing to the grid at the time?
> 
> Just have something on the power company's website like "current power costs" so people can check in and decide to plug their car in or not.



It's one of those areas where a lot of different companies are all coming up with slightly different detail.

The basic ideas center around remote control of the charger versus giving the consumer a price incentive and leaving them to set it themselves. Plus the question of how to structure pricing in the first place - fixed "peak" and "off-peak" rates versus variable pricing versus a flat "all you can eat" monthly fee.

The one thing that everyone agrees on is that there's a need to avoid what would otherwise become the default. That is, lots of people come home late afternoon or early evening then plug the car in and it charges straight away. That's a problem because the maximum consumption of electricity for other purposes generally occurs around 6 - 7pm and that's also a time when wind and solar output is typically modest. Hence the desire of those looking at the technical side to avoid EV's being charged at this time.

It's one of those things that can definitely be done but there's different ideas around as to how best to do it, noting that non-technical factors such as marketing play a factor in that.

Eg some of the marketing people seem convinced that a flat daily fee for unlimited EV charging outside peak periods would be a winner with the public. Pay $ x per month "all you can eat" but supply won't be continuous, the charger will be turned off remotely when supply is tight.

Others have thoughts of that approach backfiring financially on the supplier and would prefer that pricing be based on actual consumption volume.

From a technical perspective, so long as the end result is that the majority of EV charging occurs when supply is abundant then how that's achieved, remote control versus price incentives etc, makes no difference.


----------



## qldfrog (26 February 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> It's one of those areas where a lot of different companies are all coming up with slightly different detail.
> 
> The basic ideas center around remote control of the charger versus giving the consumer a price incentive and leaving them to set it themselves. Plus the question of how to structure pricing in the first place - fixed "peak" and "off-peak" rates versus variable pricing versus a flat "all you can eat" monthly fee.
> 
> ...



Agree we need intelligent pricing and matching technology.being paid fit at 11c, i have no incentive to feed back into the grid so my own electric heater timer will switch on with the sun by 7am, i will burn my own PV to warm my water  making so sure that at 12, i am feeding max with all washing, dishwashing and dryer finished. No incentive to do otherwise, convenient to do so and if I were to charge an EV, 7am start for me


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## over9k (27 February 2021)

I have no doubt that some kind of "smart" controller that only charges it off peak or only when the solar is pumping into the grid or whatever you decide to set it to could be implemented. No doubt whatsoever. 

This seems so simple as to be a non-issue to be honest.


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## sptrawler (27 February 2021)

over9k said:


> I have no doubt that some kind of "smart" controller that only charges it off peak or only when the solar is pumping into the grid or whatever you decide to set it to could be implemented. No doubt whatsoever.
> 
> This seems so simple as to be a non-issue to be honest.



For it to be a universal V2G charger and an asset to the grid, it is the most complex part, it has to deal with the complexities of supplying the load relative to its ability.
That is the really hard part.
Read up on generator droop, reactive current droop compensation and system stability, for BEV's to be advantageous as storage they have to provide storage.
If they are all connected together, they have to share the load proportional to their ability, that includes reactive load.
Charging the BEV's is easy, using them as storage is difficult, but is an essential part of the BEV's role in a renewable future.
If we get it right it will be a winner, if we get it wrong, BEV's will be an albatross around the grid's neck.
Just my opinion.


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## over9k (27 February 2021)

Oh I was just talking from a factoring electric car charging into a grid that you're already trying to add renewables to. I feel like the using the EV as storage etc would be a secondary thing. 

Surely the first thing would be to just ensure that people only charge their EV's off-peak or when the sun is shining/wind blowing, and then work out how to use them as storage after?


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2021)

This video is a must see for anyone that thinks that electric cars pollute as much as petrol cars, or that petrol cars don’t also use huge amounts of electricity.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 March 2021)

Value Collector said:


> This video is a must see for anyone that thinks that electric cars pollute as much as petrol cars, or that petrol cars don’t also use huge amounts of electricity.



Agreed with the basic point but there's a couple of bits in the video which don't stand scrutiny..... 

The claim is that ships are not regulated for emissions. In practice regulations were greatly tightened as of 1 January 2020 however and that's a global agreement not just a local one. 

The other claim is that Australians are talking a lot about pollution from oil refining. In practice I think it's fair to say that you'd be hard pressed to find _anyone_ talking about it at all. Of all political or even just all environmental issues in Australia, pollution from the refining of oil would be an extremely long way down the list of those anyone's talking about.

I do agree with the basic point being made, EV's beat petrol and that's true even if 100% of the electricity used comes from fossil fuels, but at the same time I won't hesitate to call it out if "my" side gets a bit over-enthusiastic with the claims.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed with the basic point but there's a couple of bits in the video which don't stand scrutiny.....
> 
> The claim is that ships are not regulated for emissions. In practice regulations were greatly tightened as of 1 January 2020 however and that's a global agreement not just a local one.
> 
> ...




I kinda of agree with the two points you mentioned, but they aren’t really the point of the video, I mean ships having a bit of regulation now doesn’t actually take away from the point that he is making he is pointing out that those ships burn oil that needs to be counted if you are going to compare apples to apples, same with his point about oil refinery pollution vs lithium mining pollution.

Check out page 5 of this link, the biggest polluters in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth are all oil refineries (Well Sydneys is a plastics company, but similar story), So I agree not many Australians talk about pollution, but those talking about it are talking about oil refineries, and not lithium mines, and the point is that if lithium mining was a bigger problem than oil refining (as the EV haters claim), then the country that mines 50% of the lithium and refines 1% of the oil should be talking about lithium and not oil, so I think he has a solid point here because the dirtiest postcodes in our big cities are the ones with oil refineries.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n...F_Pollution_Report_Nov2018_WEB.pdf?1542155046


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2021)

over9k said:


> Oh I was just talking from a factoring electric car charging into a grid that you're already trying to add renewables to. I feel like the using the EV as storage etc would be a secondary thing.
> 
> Surely the first thing would be to just ensure that people only charge their EV's off-peak or when the sun is shining/wind blowing, and then work out how to use them as storage after?



I see where you are coming from, I'm just of the opinion the two way charging/ discharging ability is being trialed as we speak and to me it makes much more sense to adopt that technology earlier rather than later, than retro fitting it.
If you have it as a charger only, then during the day, the solar is charging the cars rather than the storage batteries required overnight.

So therefore it will require much more solar generation, or it will take longer to remove the fossil fueled generation if you use off peak charging.

It isn't an issue ATM, because there isn't a lot of battery storage installed and or EV's on the road, so there is an abundance of excess generation in the middle of the day, but that will change rather rapidly going on reported projects in the pipeline.
Just my opinion.


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## Smurf1976 (3 March 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I kinda of agree with the two points you mentioned, but they aren’t really the point of the video, I mean ships having a bit of regulation now doesn’t actually take away from the point that he is making he is pointing out that those ships burn oil that needs to be counted if you are going to compare apples to apples, same with his point about oil refinery pollution vs lithium mining pollution.



What it rationally comes down to is pollution per car over its lifetime assuming the same distance traveled. Plus of course things not related to pollution at all.

In all of this though I'm just wary that there's more politics and less science than there really ought to be. Never would I have expected that we'd come to a point where basically all subjects relating to energy are treated in a religious-like manner by the public but that's how it seems to have ended up.
EV's versus ICE, how to generate electricity, how to heat water, even what octane petrol to use in an ICE - they've all become very "religious" and lacking in facts so far as public discussion is concerned. Don't even dare suggest putting ethanol in the petrol, that idea really fires some people up.

My thinking is very much that everyone ought know the facts on such matters and that the argument for an electric future is convincing enough without needing to be in any way biased.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> What it rationally comes down to is pollution per car over its lifetime assuming the same distance traveled. Plus of course things not related to pollution at all.
> 
> In all of this though I'm just wary that there's more politics and less science than there really ought to be. Never would I have expected that we'd come to a point where basically all subjects relating to energy are treated in a religious-like manner by the public but that's how it seems to have ended up.
> EV's versus ICE, how to generate electricity, how to heat water, even what octane petrol to use in an ICE - they've all become very "religious" and lacking in facts so far as public discussion is concerned. Don't even dare suggest putting ethanol in the petrol, that idea really fires some people up.
> ...




I agree it comes down to pollution per car, but what the video is addressing is that the anti EV crowd such as Frog, want to count all the pollution generated by power stations in the process of charging cars.

Counting this pollution is ofcourse entirely fair and rational (even though they normally only want to count coal fired power).

However as the video points out, where they fall off the rails is they “forget” to count all the emissions of getting their tank of fuel to their car.

So they want to only count the pollution caused by the petrol car itself as it burns the fuel, and ignore the entire system behind it, but they want to count the entire electrical system involved in charging.

this is the crux of the video, eg. If you want to talk about power stations, we need to talk about refiners too, if you want to talk about transmission losses we need to talk about oil trucks, ships and pipelines etc.

the petrol doesn’t magically appear at the petrol bowser, there is a long energy intensive process to get it there.


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## sptrawler (4 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> My thinking is very much that everyone ought know the facts on such matters and that the argument for an electric future is convincing enough without needing to be in any way biased.



I'm with you 100%, on the one hand you have those who are fanatical about the 'green' component and on the other hand you have the manufacturers and media winding them up to get taxpayer subsidies.

Meanwhile those in the background, are trying to scientifically  work out the most holistic way, to integrate it into an existing grid system while causing the least disruption and being the most advantageous.
While also trying to keep the cost to the taxpayer at a minimum, all in all a very fine balancing act.

When you consider what the taxpayer is subsidising already, with regard to the transition to renewables, it is pretty mind boggling.
All the existing roof solar panel installations have been subsidised, Snowy 2.0 will be taxpayer funded, the HV transmission upgrades are being subsidised, the Tassie battery will be subsidised, just about any renewables based project is being taxpayer subsidised.

I personally think until we know exactly what we want from the BEV's, in regard charging architecture, standard voltages etc, we would be mad to just subsidise any BEV that any company wants to bring in.
They are in their infancy, as has been shown last week where Hyundia is recalling all their BEV's for their LG battery packs catching on fire.
Currently the argument is between Hyundia and LG, as to who is at fault, wouldn't it be great if the Government was in their as well for helping people buy them.
Great headline, Government helps family buy BEV that catches on fire..., shouldn't the Government have checked they were safe before not only encouraging but also subsidising their purchase.

It is just the crazy way the world works these days, it is amazing how quickly those who stand at the front to make the most demands, are first to step back and point the finger when it goes pear shaped.
ALA the outcry at the first set of corona virus returners being isolated on Christmas island, "why should they be treated as second class citizens", now the cry is what a great idea.
Like you say @Smurf, let the technical people work out a plan, before the Government gets out a napkin to design one.


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## sptrawler (4 March 2021)

The Hyundia recall i was referring to in the last post, just for clarity, I mistakenly said all, when I'm not sure it is all but it is a lot.
https://www.caradvice.com.au/928558/the-1-13-billion-recall-hyundai-to-replace-batteries-in-82000-electric-cars-due-to-fire-risk/#:~:text=Australia will be part of,a fire risk when recharging.&text=Hyundai Australia is about to,a fire risk when recharging.
From the article:
“The recall is one of the first mass battery pack replacements conducted by a major automaker,” _Automotive News USA_ reported
“It's very significant for both Hyundai and (battery supplier) LG as we are in the early stages of the electric vehicle era,” Lee Hang-koo, senior researcher at the Korea Institute for Industrial Economics & Trade, told _Automotive News USA_. “How Hyundai handles this will set a precedent not just in South Korea but also for other countries.”

The vehicles at the centre of the latest safety scare *had been recalled for electrical problems last year.*

However, *one of the repaired vehicles evidently caught fire again*, prompting South Korean authorities to launch a new probe “into whether the first recall had been adequate”, _Automotive News USA_ reported.

Battery supplier LG has so far *attempted to deflect criticism*

In a statement to _Automotive News USA_, the battery company claimed Hyundai “misapplied LG’s suggestions for fast-charging logic in the battery management system” and said the battery cell “should not be seen as the direct cause of the fire risks”.

However, South Korea's transport ministry claimed some defects had been found in certain battery cells produced by LG’s factory in China.

While Hyundai and LG appear to be *in dispute over the cause of the fault*, it is likely both brands will need to foot the enormous recall repair bill.


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## Smurf1976 (4 March 2021)

Value Collector said:


> If you want to talk about power stations, we need to talk about refiners too, if you want to talk about transmission losses we need to talk about oil trucks, ships and pipelines etc.



We're on the same page - I've just taken issue with some of the detail that's all.

If we're going to count beans though well then as you say, we need to count all of them on both sides of the equation.

The big problem I see in all of this is that it has become an ideological war. That goes for EV's versus ICE, it goes for the means of generating electricity, it goes for how to heat water, it even goes for the detail of petrol specifications.

In any prior time that would all be an extremely dry subject of no interest to most. Go back 20 years and the average person knew that power stations existed but that was it, so long as the lights worked they had zero interest in the subject and fair enough. 

Now we've come to a point where even those in the industry, from technical through to management, are shaking their heads wondering what to do next. Saying nothing doesn't seem to be an option but trying to get facts across in an environment so politically charged and with the minds of many firmly closed is pretty much impossible.

The sad thing is, I've never come across anyone who wanted to understand the basic concepts of all this who couldn't get their mind around it. The detail's extremely complex but the basic concepts are straightforward. 

It just shouldn't be so contentious in society given it's ultimately just a fairly dry technical subject. 

Nobody's starting ideological wars over the structural design of bridges or the colour coding of plastic pipes, right?


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## sptrawler (4 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> In any prior time that would all be an extremely dry subject of no interest to most. Go back 20 years and the average person knew that power stations existed but that was it, so long as the lights worked they had zero interest in the subject and fair enough.



In the early days of climate hysteria, every picture of a power station that the media published highlighting emissions, seemed to indicate the condensation from cooling towers was the smoke from the boiler fires because it was a more dramatic picture.  😂

I laughed, but it worked, it certainly whipped the readers into a frenzy.

As I said in an earlier post, I bet the major recall of the Hyundia's battery fires get very little media coverage, but remember the media coverage when a Jeep caught fire on a beach.  
There has been very little in the Aussie press about the Hyundia's battery issue, I wonder why.  

Just depends what the media want to push to the plebs IMO.


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## orr (4 March 2021)

Value Collector said:


> This video is a must see for anyone that thinks that electric cars pollute as much as petrol cars, or that petrol cars don’t also use huge amounts of electricity.





The major glaring omission of the cost of oil the to the consumer to add to the points listed is the gigantuain monitory and resource weight of worlds militaries in servicing the protection racket to maintain the necessary security of assets and flow...

not news those profiting with the Military Industrial Complex are enarmoured with....

From Jello Biafa circa early 1990's " Die for Oil Sucker "


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## sptrawler (4 March 2021)

Origin to join AGL's lead and start to supply complete BEV packages to companies.








						Origin Energy launches “one-stop shop” for EV fleet transition
					

Australia's laggardly uptake of electric vehicles is set for a boost after Origin Energy announced a partnership with Custom Fleet to provide a holistic solution to EV fleet transition. Fleet cars make up almost half of all new car sales in Australia and upgrading Australia's commercial vehicles...




					www.pv-magazine-australia.com
				



From the article:
Origin Energy announced a partnership with Custom Fleet to provide a holistic solution to EV fleet transition. Fleet cars make up almost half of all new car sales in Australia and upgrading Australia’s commercial vehicles to electric is seen as key to reducing transport emissions.

Origin Energy and Custom Fleet announced that they’re teaming up to provide a solution to EV fleet transition in Australia. 

Origin 360 EV Fleet is being branded by Origin Energy as a “one-stop shop for EV fleet procurement, management and charging.”

The idea is to take all the stress away from fleet business customers by fully arranging their EV transition, charging infrastructure, load management and carbon neutral travel through carbon offsets.

This is not the first time Origin and Custom Fleet have teamed up, after working together on Origin’s Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) funded EV smart charging trial last year. The ongoing two-year trial provided 150 smart chargers to current EV owners and EV fleet managers, connecting them to Origin’s virtual power plant (VPP) platform — an initiative it pioneered in late 2018 with the Victorian Labor Government.

According to Origin’s half FY results, release in February, the company has installed 38 MW of residential and commercial solar in this half year, representing a 47% increase from HY2020. It is hoped that this figure will continue to rise, especially if commercial solar solutions are provided in tandem with fleet transitions to EVs.


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## Smurf1976 (4 March 2021)

orr said:


> The major glaring omission of the cost of oil the to the consumer to add to the points listed is the gigantuain monitory and resource weight of worlds militaries in servicing the protection racket to maintain the necessary security of assets and flow...



Absolutely.

Oil fuels war both as a cause and a means of carrying it out.

One of the many reasons that electricity, the vast majority of which is produced from sources other than oil, is a winner. Oil use in the electricity supply chain isn't zero but it's drastically lower than that used to supply and equivalent quantity of petrol or diesel.


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## over9k (4 March 2021)

Better off buying DFEN if that's your play though.


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## qldfrog (4 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Oil fuels war both as a cause and a means of carrying it out.
> 
> One of the many reasons that electricity, the vast majority of which is produced from sources other than oil, is a winner. Oil use in the electricity supply chain isn't zero but it's drastically lower than that used to supply and equivalent quantity of petrol or diesel.



 I will also let you think about that:
if the west move to EV, and so does not have to compete for oil, that oil will so be available to China...without conflict.
In the way you pretend not to like lollies as they destroy your teeths at school and "offer" them to your bully.
Obviously some here will believe this is a matter of CO2 emissions, worse Climate Change and trust China to reduce its emissions.


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## Smurf1976 (4 March 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Obviously some here will believe this is a matter of CO2 emissions, worse Climate Change and trust China to reduce its emissions.



I'm certainly not in that category.   

Climate change is an important issue but certainly not the only reason to move to electricity for transport.

The reality that the quantity of oil located in Western countries is quite limited relative to their combined consumption, and that those countries which do have abundant reserves are in general somewhat problematic politically, is a very strong reason to want to use less of it.


----------



## qldfrog (4 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm certainly not in that category.
> 
> Climate change is an important issue but certainly not the only reason to move to electricity for transport.
> 
> The reality that the quantity of oil located in Western countries is quite limited relative to their combined consumption, and that those countries which do have abundant reserves are in general somewhat problematic politically, is a very strong reason to want to use less of it.



What i want to point is that has been the case since 1974 or so, but the west had military hegemony and so could "afford" to launch wars..knowing they would be won.
And God we did...
That might not be the case now against the new big boy in the schoolyard who also needs that oil.
So under the face of a good deed, we aka the West let oil to China, and under a pretend of decolonialism, we leave Africa and SE Asia to China, etc etc
There might be more pressure than CC in our race to EV,ànd maybe just the fact we are losing access to oil .


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## Macquack (5 March 2021)

qldfrog said:


> There might be more pressure than CC in our race to EV,ànd maybe just the fact we are losing access to oil .




I am starting to think "our race to EV" will become purely a matter of economics and nothing to do with climate change.

As already undertaken by Value Collector, if I can charge an EV from my house solar panels and get "fuel" for virtually "free", then it is not a question of will I get a EV, it is just a question of when.


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## qldfrog (5 March 2021)

Macquack said:


> I am starting to think "our race to EV" will become purely a matter of economics and nothing to do with climate change.
> 
> As already undertaken by Value Collector, if I can charge an EV from my house solar panels and get "fuel" for virtually "free", then it is not a question of will I get a EV, it is just a question of when.



Agree but the gov see that and has already decided they want their shareso your electricity might be free but you will be charged for thr priviledge so higher rego for ev fee on power access, or fee per solar panel.
Gas is actually really cheap if you remove taxes so each tank you fill is mostly a cheque to the ato more than buying a produce
43c per litre plus a 10% gst on the lot..nearly 50% of your tank bill is a gift to the ATO if you take into account the taxes on the reseller importers etc
They will not let that go, that is a given


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## Macquack (5 March 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Agree but the gov see that and has already decided they want their shareso your electricity might be free but you will be charged for thr priviledge so higher rego for ev fee on power access, or fee per solar panel.
> Gas is actually really cheap if you remove taxes so each tank you fill is mostly a cheque to the ato more than buying a produce
> 43c per litre plus a 10% gst on the lot..nearly 50% of your tank bill is a gift to the ATO if you take into account the taxes on the reseller importers etc
> They will not let that go, that is a given



True.

I must be getting old and also starting to think how to cut the government out of the loop. Off grid, off town water, just need a cow, a veggy patch, a home brew kit, and a 30 year old car so I can get cheap "club" rego.


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## over9k (5 March 2021)

Macquack said:


> I am starting to think "our race to EV" will become purely a matter of economics and nothing to do with climate change.
> 
> As already undertaken by Value Collector, if I can charge an EV from my house solar panels and get "fuel" for virtually "free", then it is not a question of will I get a EV, it is just a question of when.



Lol that's all it's ever been macquack. I made that big post about energy security etc for a reason. 

Most of the world doesn't care about climate change in the slightest.


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## qldfrog (5 March 2021)

Macquack said:


> True.
> 
> I must be getting old and also starting to think how to cut the government out of the loop. Off grid, off town water, just need a cow, a veggy patch, a home brew kit, and a 30 year old car so I can get cheap "club" rego.



Working on it too😁


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## basilio (5 March 2021)

over9k said:


> Lol that's all it's ever been macquack. I made that big post about energy security etc for a reason.
> 
> *Most of the world doesn't care about climate change in the slightest.*




Do you really think so ? if "climate change" was some abstract concept like the formation of black holes or "how many angels can dance on the head of pin"  discussion I could see your POV.

But CC is intensely real. The bushfires that now far more dangerous than every before. Rising sea levels  because  of runaway melting of Arctic/Antarctic ice. Droughts that decimate landscapes and ecosystems.

And if I was just to pick one  definitive hip pocket item that could persuade people to become woke to why we need to recognise and tackle CC, check out the obvious consequence of  more bushfires, floods and rising sea levels. When you see this years house insurance premiums this will be a prime driver. It will be catastrophic in some/many areas and just steep for the rest of the community.









						How the spread of insurance red zones could trigger a property crunch
					

Insurance costs are set to soar for thousands of Australians. Exclusive new data shows the areas facing the biggest jumps.




					www.abc.net.au
				











						Climate change and P&C insurance: The threat and opportunity
					

Many insurance business models must adapt to the effects from climate change




					www.mckinsey.com


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## basilio (5 March 2021)

But back to electric cars.

China is the world biggest car market. And China is moving very rapidly to electric cars for CC, pollution and cost reasons. Check out the cute, basic  Chinese electric car that is going through the roof.









						Electric vehicles tipped to reach 58pct of new car sales in China by 2030
					

HSBC predicts almost six in ten new cars sold in China could be electric by 2030, driven by new generation of EV-friendly consumers.




					thedriven.io


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## basilio (5 March 2021)

A really interesting phenomenon is the runaway success of the Wuling Hongguang Mini EV.
Went from design to full production in 12 months!!
*Costs $4.500.*  Can seat four. Tiny footprint. 100-140k range.  Looks fun and quirky.

But most importantly in China it doesn't incur an additional $10,000 cost to drive in Shanghai.  Very powerful incentive indeed.

Yes it is basic and cheap.  But for $4500 urban transport ?  That's, what, 3 iphones ?



China plans 2035 gas car ban that doesn't actually ban gas ...​electrek.co › 2020/10/27 › china-plans-2035-gas-car-b...
27 Oct 2020 — _China_ plans to require that all new _cars_ sold after 2035 be eco-friendly ... _cars_ sold in the country will be either electric, plug-in hybrid, or _fuel_ cell _vehicles_, ... In _Shanghai_, for example, license plates are prohibitively expensive ($10,000+) for gas _vehicles_, while EV license plates do not need to pay this _fee_.


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## Smurf1976 (5 March 2021)

Macquack said:


> I am starting to think "our race to EV" will become purely a matter of economics and nothing to do with climate change.



I'll simply observe that what's most important depends on who you ask.

Anyone on the engineering side and _most_ governments (Australia's a notable exception) will put supply security as top of the list of concerns. They won't see the others as unimportant, just not the top priority.

Big business tends to put price at top of the list until someone mentions supply security, at which point they usually ask probing questions and conclude that some compromise between cost and reliability is what's needed.

General public tends to worry about financial cost and any sort of environmental impact they can see. Smoke coming out of a stack, urban smog, oil spills, etc.

Everyone says they're worried about climate change but in practice very few put it top of the list when it comes to the crunch of what they actually do. That's not aiming to throw stones, it's just a practical observation. Everyone says they're concerned but in practice that concern is usually "subject to" some other consideration(s). In other words, it's on the list but not at the top.

So far as oil supply security is concerned, well that one's nothing new to anyone who's been around the whole thing. The Australian electricity industry in particular churned out a huge amount of research into it around 40 years ago now and the short version of all that could be stated as "the world isn't running out of oil but the price and supply of it is and will remain at risk - at some point that risk may well blow up and at that point it's far too late to do anything about it".

Quite a few major projects came out of that thinking. Some which were built and which did reduce the use of oil substantially, others which ended in major controversy and didn't go ahead but alternatives were in due course built instead. Hence why we only have ~2% of electricity supply from oil nationally, and most of that's not on the main grid. That was a very conscious decision made circa 40 years ago now to not have oil as a major source of electricity in Australia.


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## over9k (5 March 2021)

basilio said:


> Do you really think so ? if "climate change" was some abstract concept like the formation of black holes or "how many angels can dance on the head of pin"  discussion I could see your POV.
> 
> But CC is intensely real. The bushfires that now far more dangerous than every before. Rising sea levels  because  of runaway melting of Arctic/Antarctic ice. Droughts that decimate landscapes and ecosystems.
> 
> ...



I didn't say it isn't real. I said most of the planet doesn't care, and they don't. Environmentalism is a luxury of the rich. Most of the planet have much more immediate and bigger problems (like starvation) than climate change.

I made a big point of this in my post about asia trying to get off oil dependence etc - that it has nothing to do with environmentalism and everything to do with energy security. Any positive environmental things are just side effects.


----------



## sptrawler (5 March 2021)

over9k said:


> I didn't say it isn't real. I said most of the planet doesn't care, and they don't. Environmentalism is a luxury of the rich. Most of the planet have much more immediate and bigger problems (like starvation) than climate change.
> 
> I made a big point of this in my post about asia trying to get off oil dependence etc - that it has nothing to do with environmentalism and everything to do with energy security. Any positive environmental things are just side effects.



Spot on and as smurf said, many go on and on about climate change, but actually do very little themselves about it.
In most cases it is like listening to someone with a smoke in their mouths, telling you that you should give up smoking, meanwhile they take another puff.
For the record I don't smoke.


----------



## over9k (5 March 2021)

Fact is that most simply cannot afford to. If you don't know where your next meal is coming from, that concern generally consumes all of your attention.

One of the BIG overlap areas is in smog though - health problems cost and smog causes a lot of health problems. For that reason, even poor countries are putting a lot of effort into reducing smog, which basically just means doing any/every thing they can to reduce or at least mitigate the number and/or effects of exhaust pipes in any one area.

Hence why even energy secure poor countries are still chasing EV's etc. Again, nothing to do with climate change, but a nice side-effect nonetheless.


----------



## Craton (5 March 2021)

basilio said:


> A really interesting phenomenon is the runaway success of the Wuling Hongguang Mini EV.
> Went from design to full production in 12 months!!
> *Costs $4.500.*  Can seat four. Tiny footprint. 100-140k range.  Looks fun and quirky.
> 
> ...




Is there even a safety rating on that thing?


----------



## over9k (5 March 2021)

Safety regulations? 


In China?


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 March 2021)

over9k said:


> Hence why even energy secure poor countries are still chasing EV's etc. Again, nothing to do with climate change, but a nice side-effect nonetheless.



There are many benefits to EV's, climate change is just one of them and I'd argue that EV's a concept would still stack up in terms of human health and energy supply security even if climate change didn't exist.

The only case against them is (1) it will take considerable time such that claims we won't be using petrol a decade from now are nonsense and (2) cost and infrastructure are for some users is still a barrier needing to be overcome.

I note that nobody here's claiming we won't be using petrol a decade from now, but have a look around online or even at actual politicians, lobby groups and so on and the claim's certainly being made. It doesn't stack up but that's no reason to not go with EV's, it just means the transition is going to take longer than some claim. No reason to not get started on it now though.


----------



## over9k (5 March 2021)

Yeah, hence me buying NRGU and GUSH a while ago on account of everyone thinking that oil's day is done - it isn't.


----------



## basilio (5 March 2021)

Craton said:


> Is there even a safety rating on that thing?




Did you check out the video ? I believe it has a safety cage and they did show a crash test.
No it hasn't got all the latest safety features. If it was to be exported to Australia and other countries there would have to upgrades that would meet current standards.

Having said that. At the price point of $4,500 it represents an exceptional value for a urban EV that isn't a golf cart.
Re Safety standards in cars around the world.









						Emerging markets are taking vehicle safety seriously (at least on paper!) | Automotive World
					

China has shown immense progress in adopting car safety standards, but other developing countries, such as Mexico, India, and Brazil, lie far behind. Indraneel Bardhan of EOS Intelligence, takes a closer look




					www.automotiveworld.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 March 2021)

basilio said:


> Re Safety standards in cars around the world.



There's been huge progress there such that a "dangerous" new car is still far safer than even the absolute safest new car was not all that long ago.

The means of powering them also of itself creates a hazard. EV's won't have this problem for example:


----------



## over9k (6 March 2021)

For anyone wondering about the safety issue with electricity etc - if you're ever in a vehicle that hits some overhead wires or power lines come down or there's really any kind of electrical hazard at all, you STAY IN THE VEHICLE. You also scream your head off at anyone nearby to not come anywhere near it and go & call the emergency services instead.

As long as you stay in the vehicle you're actually way way safer around even live wires than you are unignited fuel. Unignited fuel = get the hell out of there IMMEDIATELY.


----------



## qldfrog (6 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's been huge progress there such that a "dangerous" new car is still far safer than even the absolute safest new car was not all that long ago.
> 
> The means of powering them also of itself creates a hazard. EV's won't have this problem for example:




You mean just that:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BMAN6BAgJEAE&usg=AOvVaw2ylxz7Or7Gi9FUWRU70uBi
Just tongue in cheek....
I like the ev concept


----------



## qldfrog (6 March 2021)

qldfrog said:


> You mean just that:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s9APLXM9Ei8&ved=2ahUKEwjTlof7jJrvAhWS8XMBHX42CGwQo7QBMAN6BAgJEAE&usg=AOvVaw2ylxz7Or7Gi9FUWRU70uBi
> Just tongue in cheek....
> I like the ev concept



I sometimes wonder what happens when a fire service hoses down a tesla after a crash...


----------



## qldfrog (6 March 2021)

qldfrog said:


> I sometimes wonder what happens when a fire service hoses down a tesla after a crash...



And the great God Google got the answer
https://www.livescience.com/62179-tesla-fire-cleanup-danger.html
All fun


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2021)

In the Cold Parts of the USA car parks are fitted with power points, because the petrol cars need to be plugged in to keep their oil warm.

It shows that anyone that thinks install charging infrastructure in car parks is impossible or some sort of road block to the adoption of EV’s is just being silly.

absolutely no reason why simple power points like these couldn’t be used to charge EVs at peoples work places or shopping centres etc, after all most cars are parked for over 20 hours each day, so even low voltage slow charging is more than enough for commuters, and a few fast chargers for long distance travellers.


----------



## Knobby22 (7 March 2021)

Saw an add on hydrogen vehicles like tractors and SUVs being made in Port Kembla. Combined with the South Koreans and Toyota advancing this technology and our massive ability to create hydrogen through PV, I really think it will be the preferred option for Australia.

I am thinking battery cars for autonomous vehicles but hydrogen f or the SUV and big travel set.








						Hydrogen-powered vehicles are here – and here’s what you need to know | Globird Energy
					

Did you know that an Australian-made hydrogen fuel cell vehicle will be available next year? An auto-tech startup called H2X set up its factory at Port Kembla around six months ago and aims to be…




					www.globirdenergy.com.au


----------



## Knobby22 (7 March 2021)

Saw an add on hydrogen vehicles like tractors and SUVs being made in Port Kembla. Combined with the South Koreans and Toyota advancing this technology and our massive ability to create hydrogen through PV, I really think it will be the preferred option for Australia.

I am thinking battery cars for autonomous vehicles but hydrogen for the SUV and big travel set.









						Hydrogen-powered vehicles are here – and here’s what you need to know | Globird Energy
					

Did you know that an Australian-made hydrogen fuel cell vehicle will be available next year? An auto-tech startup called H2X set up its factory at Port Kembla around six months ago and aims to be…




					www.globirdenergy.com.au


----------



## qldfrog (7 March 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Saw an add on hydrogen vehicles like tractors and SUVs being made in Port Kembla. Combined with the South Koreans and Toyota advancing this technology and our massive ability to create hydrogen through PV, I really think it will be the preferred option for Australia.
> 
> I am thinking battery cars for autonomous vehicles but hydrogen for the SUV and big travel set.
> 
> ...



maybe, but we do not count world wide so will have to do with what the US do, and Europe for city transport only 
Europe and Australia can not be more different in term of distances, road tye etc  whereas we have analogies with the US


----------



## SirRumpole (7 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's been huge progress there such that a "dangerous" new car is still far safer than even the absolute safest new car was not all that long ago.
> 
> The means of powering them also of itself creates a hazard. *EV's won't have this problem for example:*





No, but they might have this one...

View attachment charging electric cars - jh.mp4



        Just in case you are planning on buying an electric car…….this is what they don't tell you!


> Wonder if local fire departments can handle this type of incident...
> 
> What you see in this video is a shorting cell setting off the rest. It's a chain reaction from the first to the end car. Bet they lost all those cars in that charging line.
> 
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No, but they might have this one...
> 
> View attachment 121046
> 
> ...




Were they Samsung brand, Hahaha.


----------



## Value Collector (7 March 2021)

Lets not leave our Hydrogen friends out of the mix

Hydrogen tanker fire, the action starts at 2.00 mark.

The crazy part is that the fire was only orange and visible at the beginning because of the paint burning off, once the fire had burned off the paint the flames turned clear and could not be seen.


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2021)

Well at last, Australia to make lithium ion batteries, hopefully this is  the first of many companies that move beyond the dig and ship mentality, that has prevailed in Australia for the last 40 years.








						Australia's first lithium-ion battery production facility to open this year
					

The $28 million site located near Newcastle will build batteries for electric trucks and buses tailored for Australian weather conditions. Construction of




					www.caradvice.com.au
				



From the article:
_Construction of Australia’s first lithium-ion battery production facility has begun near Newcastle, with commercial vehicle power packs due to go into production by July.

The 4000 square metre site – run by start-up Energy Renaissance – will produce batteries tailored to Australian weather conditions, with a focus on commercial vehicles and buses.

Development costs will total approximately $28 million, and the facility will employ “up to” 100 people, according to a spokesperson for the project.

Annual battery output will initially sit at approximately 48 megawatt hours, before increasing to 180 megawatt hours by 2022.
Jens Goennemann – managing director of the Advanced Manufacturing Growth Centre, which has invested in the site – told CarAdvice: "Energy Renaissance’s announcement of on-shore, Lithium-ion battery manufacturing is exactly what we need more of in Australia."

"By building local manufacturing capability and adding value to domestic commodities, [Australia] will be able to supply critical componentry to local and global automotive [vehicle manufacturers]."

Mr Goennemann said Australia has “an opportunity to lead the world when it comes to energy transition, while adding value to our abundant natural resources.”

He said the company's hot-climate battery technology “has numerous applications across ... energy, defence, commercial and industrial – both domestically and abroad.”

The site has a theoretical maximum output of 5.3 gigawatt hours per annum, however a spokesperson for Energy Renaissance said expansion beyond 2022 would be driven by market demand_.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> he 4000 square metre site – run by start-up Energy Renaissance – will produce batteries tailored to Australian weather conditions, with a focus on commercial vehicles and buses.



For the record whilst cars are no longer made in Australia, we do still build buses here with factories in Qld, SA and Tas. (Might be others too but those are the ones I'm aware of).

So there's a local market for the batteries in that use assuming production of electric buses.


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> For the record whilst cars are no longer made in Australia, we do still build buses here with factories in Qld, SA and Tas. (Might be others too but those are the ones I'm aware of).
> 
> So there's a local market for the batteries in that use assuming production of electric buses.



There is also a lot of grid connected batteries required, at all levels from house, to industrial, to direct power integrated for storage and rapid response duties.
The options are only just starting, now all we need is the local market, to buy Australian.
That is the big test, we have everything here to make them, but as with Holden and Ford, will people buy them?


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2021)

Kia's new offering for BEV's




__





						Kia offers a first look at its new EV6 electric car
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## Value Collector (16 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> For the record whilst cars are no longer made in Australia, we do still build buses here with factories in Qld, SA and Tas. (Might be others too but those are the ones I'm aware of).
> 
> So there's a local market for the batteries in that use assuming production of electric buses.



We also build Volvo Trucks in Brisbane


----------



## basilio (17 March 2021)

I came across this story about a guy who built his own electric  BMW car from junked bits and pieces and broke the world driving record on a single charge in 2017.* Over 1000 miles !!*

Quite inspirational and Eric Lundgren has bigger picture ideas and projects than just a clever stunt.





__





						Interviews - Better than Tesla: An interview with Eric Lundgren - the man who?s built a new electric vehicle out of electronic waste - Renewable Energy Magazine, at the heart of clean energy journalism
					





					www.renewableenergymagazine.com


----------



## basilio (17 March 2021)

The you tube video on Eric Lundgren 1000mile electric car.  It's had only 20,000 views since 2017 ..


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2021)

basilio said:


> The you tube video on Eric Lundgren 1000mile electric car.  It's had only 20,000 views since 2017 ..



In reality that is due to the lack of interest ATM.


----------



## over9k (18 March 2021)

Here we go, vic introduces an electric car tax: https://7news.com.au/politics/vic-introduces-aust-first-electric-car-tax-c-2372169


----------



## Value Collector (18 March 2021)

over9k said:


> Here we go, vic introduces an electric car tax: https://7news.com.au/politics/vic-introduces-aust-first-electric-car-tax-c-2372169



I think that is super short sighted of them, they should wait until electric vehicles are more entrenched.

Everyone agrees that EV’s have multiple benefits to the population, eg increasing energy security, reducing air pollution etc etc. taxing them so early in the uptake when they should be getting supported is crazy.


----------



## over9k (18 March 2021)

I suspect it has far more to do with the tax revenue than it does anything else. 

I mean I could be wrong, but hey, the most reliable government records...


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I think that is super short sighted of them, they should wait until electric vehicles are more entrenched.
> 
> Everyone agrees that EV’s have multiple benefits to the population, eg increasing energy security, reducing air pollution etc etc. taxing them so early in the uptake when they should be getting supported is crazy.



Dan is getting in before there is a large number of people affected, this is a slip it under the radar snow job, clever move. 
It won't be long before they are giving subsidies for BEV's to help the grid, so you might as well get in early and install a tax, then at a later date you just tweak the amount beautifull.


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2021)

over9k said:


> I suspect it has far more to do with the tax revenue than it does anything else.
> 
> I mean I could be wrong, but hey, the most reliable government records...



I agree with you, they are using the guise of saying the BEV owners don't pay fuel excise, but that is a Federal tax anyway.
All they are doing is changing the fuel tax from a Federal to a State tax early, but the Feds will introduce another tax to replace the fuel tax anyway, so in reality the BEV tax is a whole new tax IMO.
As VC says, it is crazy to introduce a new tax on BEVs, when they are expensive anyway. The next thing Dan will be asking for will be taxpayer incentives to subsidies BEV's, which will deflect the issue to a Federal one, clever politics really.
Morals and principals have no place in politics, or the media IMO.
The thing that is really funny is, the vocal minority who keep bagging Scomo for not doing enough to encourage BEV takeup, are saying nothing, a bit of conflict of interest is confusing them IMO. They want the Libs out and Labor/Greens in, so they can't say anything negative about Labor, so Dan carries on in his merry way. 😂
I think as soon as this is through all the other States will follow suite, well if they have any sense they will, if they don't and leave it to a later date they will risk losing an election over it.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with you, they are using the guise of saying the BEV owners don't pay fuel excise, but that is a Federal tax anyway.
> All they are doing is changing the fuel tax from a Federal to a State tax early, but the Feds will introduce another tax to replace the fuel tax anyway, so in reality the BEV tax is a whole new tax IMO.
> As VC says, it is crazy to introduce a new tax on BEVs, when they are expensive anyway. The next thing Dan will be asking for will be taxpayer incentives to subsidies BEV's, which will deflect the issue to a Federal one, clever politics really.
> Morals and principals have no place in politics, or the media IMO.
> The thing that is really funny is, the vocal minority who keep bagging Scomo for not doing enough to encourage BEV takeup, are saying nothing, a bit of conflict of interest is confusing them IMO. They want the Libs out and Labor/Greens in, so they can't say anything negative about Labor, so Dan carries on in his merry way. 😂




I'm not sure I agree. I think it's fairer to get in early and let ev buyers know that they are going to have to contribute instead of getting people hooked on ev's and then bringing in a "gotcha" tax.

EV's are the way of the future and fuel excise has to be replaced somehow.


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm not sure I agree. I think it's fairer to get in early and let ev buyers know that they are going to have to contribute instead of getting people hooked on ev's and then bringing in a "gotcha" tax.
> 
> EV's are the way of the future and fuel excise has to be replaced somehow.



I agree with you Rumpy, all I'm pointing out is that ATM it is a very astute political move and as I said it is taking the fuel excise from the Feds to the State, which it should be anyway as the States maintain the roads.
Currently the States have to go to the Feds with the begging bowl in hand, to get grants from the fuel excise, well that is my understanding of it..
I'm only making observations as to how clever a political move it is, S.A suggested it initially from memory, Dan has gone what a great idea.
A very clever move on his part.


----------



## basilio (18 March 2021)

Excellent overview of the how the rapid movement to BEV  cars is challenging Japans major car makers.
Highlights the range of policy practices used around the world to move rapidly to  the production of BEV only cars in the next 10 years.

Chinas policies are very directed in that direction.









						Why Japan's carmaking heavyweights could be facing an electric shock
					

Analysis: The rapid development of battery-only cars is eclipsing petrol vehicles and even hybrids, leaving Japan’s big producers racing to catch up




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Value Collector (18 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm not sure I agree. I think it's fairer to get in early and let ev buyers know that they are going to have to contribute instead of getting people hooked on ev's and then bringing in a "gotcha" tax.
> 
> EV's are the way of the future and fuel excise has to be replaced somehow.



They could easily just say the tax will begin in 2025 or 2030.


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2021)

Value Collector said:


> They could easily just say the tax will begin in 2025 or 2030.



Then they would be arguing with the 'green' media for 5-10 years, and that same media would be getting more and more backing, from a slow to wake up general public.


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 March 2021)

I'll go a step further and question why roads need to be user pays in the first place?

The vast majority of things done by government are not directly user pays, they're just funded by general taxation revenue, so I'm not seeing the reason why roads need to be user pays? In any event, even if they are, well apart from highways the rest are mostly the responsibility of local government not state or federal anyway.

In some states at least public transport runs at a massive loss, fares to use it are basically just a token contribution to stop people riding around all day for the sake of it, so there's no real argument that drivers would be unfairly advantaged over PT users if roads weren't user pays.

I've always thought John Hewson had the right idea - 15% GST on everything, scrap other taxes like fuel excise, and adjust income tax rates and welfare to avoid whacking the poor over the head. Putting aside politics, it was and remains a reasonable idea in my view - at least partly because the simplicity reduces both administrative costs and the potential to rort it. 

It also automatically brings in more revenue with economic growth and inflation, thus removing the constant politics which surrounds taxation and by default shifting the focus to other matters.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll go a step further and question why roads need to be user pays in the first place?
> 
> The vast majority of things done by government are not directly user pays, they're just funded by general taxation revenue, so I'm not seeing the reason why roads need to be user pays? In any event, even if they are, well apart from highways the rest are mostly the responsibility of local government not state or federal anyway.
> 
> ...




In fact only 22 cents in the dollar of fuel excise revenue is spent on roads so motorists are funding much more than what they actually use.

But you are right, user pays is just a furphy. I pay for health insurance that I rarely use, single people pay for a education system for other people's kids etc.

All government revenue goes into one big bucket , required by the Constitution and gets spent wherever its needed.


----------



## Value Collector (18 March 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> In fact only 22 cents in the dollar of fuel excise revenue is spent on roads so motorists are funding much more than what they actually use.
> 
> But you are right, user pays is just a furphy. I pay for health insurance that I rarely use, single people pay for a education system for other people's kids etc.
> 
> All government revenue goes into one big bucket , required by the Constitution and gets spent wherever its needed.



The arguement about EV’s not paying for roads is just a way to create a scapegoat, it’s easier to bring in a tax if you get the majority to believe it’s some other guilty/evil group paying it.

But in reality, just as my life is better When other peoples kids get educated so I don’t mind taxes funding education, so people shouldn’t feel upset if in some tiny way they are contributing to increasing uptake of EV’s and helping clean city air.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 March 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The arguement about EV’s not paying for roads is just a way to create a scapegoat, it’s easier to bring in a tax if you get the majority to believe it’s some other guilty/evil group paying it.
> 
> But in reality, just as my life is better When other peoples kids get educated so I don’t mind taxes funding education, so people shouldn’t feel upset if in some tiny way they are contributing to increasing uptake of EV’s and helping clean city air.




One of the easiest ways to reduce pollution is reduce the number of people or at least stabilise it.

But that never enters into politician's minds. It's all got to be growth, growth , growth, like a cancer. GDP is the only thing that matters, not the quality of life.

Well, one day it's all going to come crashing down and people will blame anyone else but themselves.

A bit off topic, but never mind. At least EV's will play a part in improving our lifestyle, if the vested interests will allow it.


----------



## over9k (18 March 2021)

Seems I stirred the pot with this one!

For an investing forum, seems members are quite left wing on this.

I'll be the token libertarian and say that I think almost everything should be user pays and also pays for the consequences of not paying if they happen to find themselves in a pinch needing a service they opted out of.

I'm seriously considering moving to being very nearly off-grid sometime in the future.


----------



## Value Collector (18 March 2021)

over9k said:


> Seems I stirred the pot with this one!
> 
> For an investing forum, seems members are quite left wing on this.
> 
> ...



These things work in cycles, if you let the pendulum swing to far to the right, it will just swing further in the equal but opposite direction on the back swing.

Hence why I am pretty much middle of the road, Eg

1. I don’t mind paying taxes, provided they are fair and spent well.

2. I want wage earners to earn a decent living from their labour, but I also want the capital owners to do decently as well.

3. I don’t mind the people that do well paying a little extra taxes to subsidise the people that drew the short straw, provided the taxes don’t become punitive to a certain classes or other.

take a look at the health care system in the USA, it’s super expensive for every body, you have to be careful what you wish for, “user pays” can end up being more expensive for everyone.


----------



## sptrawler (18 March 2021)

over9k said:


> Seems I stirred the pot with this one!
> 
> For an investing forum, seems members are quite left wing on this.
> 
> ...



Research that off grid move very well IMO, because I'm sure eventually electricity will become like water and sewage, if it goes past your place you pay for it. 
A rural block may be the goto answer IMO.

Anyway back on subject, ICE vehicles IMO will follow this articles prediction.
In a lot of ways, what is happening to coal fired power stations will happen to ICE vehicles, technology will make ICE vehicles obsolete, so the constant bashing over the head by vested interests isn't really required.
It will be a natural progression, as with coal shutting down.








						Why petrol and diesel cars may soon be too costly to buy and maintain
					

Leading analyst says the price of electric vehicles will fall to around $5,000 or below, in the not too distant future, making petrol and diesel cars too costly to buy and maintain.




					thedriven.io
				




Already Toyota is starting to up the price of new ICE vehicles, it makes more sense than trying to reduce your profit margin on the BEV or force taxpayers to subsidies them, I wonder how long before the other manufacturers follow suit.
IMO upping the price of ICE vehicles will result in a better outcome, than taxpayer funded incentives.
As you say @over9k user pays, if you want to buy the BEV why should the taxpayer help fund it, when the manufacturer can just say well it's your choice here is the ICE, or the BEV similar price.
if the manufacturers adopt that attitude, I bet the governments would readily supply the charging network at taxpayers expense, it is a win/ win for the taxpayer IMO.


----------



## over9k (18 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As you say @over9k user pays, if you want to buy the BEV why should the taxpayer help fund it, when the manufacturer can just say well it's your choice here is the ICE, or the BEV similar price.
> if the manufacturers adopt that attitude, I bet the governments would readily supply the charging network at taxpayers expense, it is a win/ win for the taxpayer IMO.



Yeah we've been having this conversation about the grid upgrades etc for a while.

As things currently sit, a standard 10 or 15 amp 240v circuit just isn't fast enough charge really. So it's either bigger batteries in the cars, a fast-charge battery in the house that can just dump into the car when plugged in and then charges 24/7 (until full) when unplugged, or upgrading the grid. 

At the moment, seems like the simplest thing to do would be to get 3 phase power installed, which is user-pays. 

About the only argument I can see for government subsidies of ev's and things related to ev's (electricity grid upgrade, road building and maintenance etc etc) is externalities like smog.


----------



## over9k (18 March 2021)

Meanwhile, S.A just cracked a milestone where they actually needed to turn a few solar panels off: 









						Authorities remotely switch off thousands of SA home solar panels due to lack of power grid demand
					

Energy authorities in SA use new solar switch-off powers for the first time, remotely cutting output from thousands of rooftop units during "near-record minimum demand" to maintain the stability of the grid.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 March 2021)

over9k said:


> About the only argument I can see for government subsidies of ev's and things related to ev's (electricity grid upgrade, road building and maintenance etc etc) is externalities like smog.



Smog, acid rain, climate change, the cost of cleaning windows, a decent portion of the entire military budget for the past 75 years, however many cases of cancer and heart disease....

Plus no longer the case but historically add lead pollution of literally the entire planet to that list. The stuff turned up at the North Pole and in remote wilderness areas with no cities or even towns upwind for a very long distance. Literally the entire planet ended up being contaminated thanks to tetraethyllead, the dangers of which were known right from the very beginning and warned against by many.

There's a lot of costs associated with the internal combustion engine.

Realistically though, they'll remain common through to at least the 2040's in practice given the fleet turnover time isn't likely to change all that much (indeed the logistics pretty much preclude it doing so).


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 March 2021)

over9k said:


> Yeah we've been having this conversation about the grid upgrades etc for a while.



A single EV, driven 12,500 km a year will add 30 - 60% to an average household's electricity consumption (which varies between states hence the range).

Grid electricity isn't going out of business anytime soon. Anyone expecting that's in for a big surprise.

In terms of charging though, it hugely depends on the circumstances of use. Big difference between someone who drives the car 30km a day and parks it for 12 hours in a garage versus someone who drives 200km a day and parks on the street. etc.


----------



## over9k (19 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Smog, acid rain, climate change, the cost of cleaning windows, a decent portion of the entire military budget for the past 75 years, however many cases of cancer and heart disease....
> 
> Plus no longer the case but historically add lead pollution of literally the entire planet to that list. The stuff turned up at the North Pole and in remote wilderness areas with no cities or even towns upwind for a very long distance. Literally the entire planet's contaminated thanks to tetraethyllead, the dangers of which were known right from the very beginning and warned against by many.
> 
> There's a lot of costs associated with the internal combustion engine.



Of course - hence my choice of words saying "like" smog rather than specifically smog.

I don't envy the poor consultant that has to do the cost/benefit number crunching of trying to price everything you've mentioned though.


I would imagine the best way to do it would be to try a few different subsidy levels and see where you get the highest marginal benefit (ev uptake?) per $ of subsidy and pick that as your number. Assuming you get that right, the next question becomes where you actually get the subsidy money from. 

Fuel excise (on account of ICE engines polluting) seems like a very obvious choice. Disincentive (raise the cost of) polluting on one hand whilst incentivising (reducing the cost of) not doing it on the other. Classic carrot and stick approach. 


This feels good. I haven't put my microeconomics hat on in a long time.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 March 2021)

over9k said:


> hence my choice of words saying "like" smog rather than specifically smog



My bad, I didn't read it that way.....  



over9k said:


> Meanwhile, S.A just cracked a milestone where they actually needed to turn a few solar panels off:



It's the first time the system to force small scale (eg household) systems to cut output has been used but curtailment of large scale solar (and wind) generation has become somewhat common in SA over the past couple of years. It's happened to at least some extent on 4 of the past 7 days.

It's also happening from time to time in Victoria and south-west WA. In all cases it's a situation most likely to occur during mild weather, when the sky's reasonably clear and there's some wind blowing and from mid-morning to mid-afternoon, say 10am to 3pm or thereabouts.

If someone was so inclined and their EV is parked during those times, well charging it then would result in zero increased CO2 emissions.

Now I fully acknowledge that most people aren't going to actually do that, but point is that it's possible, we're at a point where there are occasions now where using additional electricity adds zero emissions. Not consistently but it does happen. Progress is being made.

Average emissions intensity in the National Electricity Market is slowly but surely coming down. It's about 700kg of CO2 per MWh now, down from roughly 920 kg in 2015. Some may want it to come down faster, but it's coming down as such yes.

Meanwhile on the other side of the world, there's some unhappiness about EV subsidies being cut back it seems:









						Backlash grows against cut to electric car grants
					

A government decision to reduce subsidies is criticised by the motor industry and UK businesses.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> A single EV, driven 12,500 km a year will add 30 - 60% to an average household's electricity consumption (which varies between states hence the range).
> 
> Grid electricity isn't going out of business anytime soon. Anyone expecting that's in for a big surprise.
> 
> In terms of charging though, it hugely depends on the circumstances of use. Big difference between someone who drives the car 30km a day and parks it for 12 hours in a garage versus someone who drives 200km a day and parks on the street. etc.



Not to mention that the grid is very useful in energy trading, eg even if you have a battery it can become full by 10.30am so being able to sell that excess electricity is very handy, especially if you are on holidays for 3 months of the year, putting your system into “holiday mode” where it puts energy back into the grid system during peak times would be good.


----------



## sptrawler (22 March 2021)

Some interesting statements in this article, as we have said previously existing auto manufacturers need to be careful how the allocate resources.




__





						No Cookies | The Courier Mail
					

No Cookies




					www.couriermail.com.au
				



From the article:
_Audi, which is also owned by Porsche’s parent company Volkswagen, has committed to making no new internal combustion engines.

It will instead put all its financial and developmental resources into improving its electric set-ups.

Audi CEO Marcus Duesmann told German publication Automobilwoche that the company would instead alter existing engines to meet any new emissions guidelines.
He also said the soon to be enacted Euro 7 emissions regulations would make it extremely difficult to develop new internal combustion engines_.


----------



## sptrawler (23 March 2021)

sptrawler said:


> _Audi, which is also owned by Porsche’s parent company *Volkswagen, has committed to making no new internal combustion engines*.
> 
> It will instead put all its financial and developmental resources into improving its electric set-ups.
> 
> ...



Don't you love it when manufacturers try to wind up public opinion, the post above says VW aren't going to do further development on ICE engines, then you read this article.








						VW boss says ‘embarrassing’ rules stop cheap electric car imports
					

Frustrated and embarrassed, Volkswagen Australia’s chief is speaking out against state and federal governments’ failure to support electric cars.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the post:
_Mr Bartsch said the company does not want subsidies, but a firm signal from the federal government that it wants to cut carbon emissions from the transport sector by a set amount by 2030, and planning guidelines from state governments to ensure all new public buildings come with charging stations_.
_Further, the company wants Australia to introduce emissions standards because new Volkswagen engines cannot run on dirtier Australian fuel.

Until such laws are introduced, manufacturers will continue dumping older and dirtier models on the Australian market, said Mr Bartsch.
Because the massive cost of development of those models has already been realised over years of production, the glut of older vehicles makes it impossible for new cleaner models to compete in the market without government regulation of emissions, he said.
“The Australian consumer is being forced into buying low tech cars that have high CO2 output when the options are there to get the high tech engines with lower CO2 output, running on lower sulfur fuel,” he said_.

As they aren't developing new motors, I guess we will get the old ones anyway.


----------



## over9k (24 March 2021)




----------



## moXJO (29 March 2021)

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2021/03/...wo-classic-cars-to-electric-all-on-their-own/


I wouldn't mind giving it a crack. 

https://ev4unow.com/products/


----------



## sptrawler (29 March 2021)

Wont be long before you will be able to sell some of your BEV capacity to the grid.  








						AGL seals tech deal with Britain’s OVO as energy shake-up looms
					

The new partnership, which will adapt OVO’s tech platform for the Australian market, comes as AGL prepares to brief shareholders about how it will reshape its business as the rise of renewable energy weighs on power prices.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
AGL and OVO, which is Britain’s third-largest energy provider, said Australia had one of the world’s highest levels of rooftop solar generation. Kaluza’s software would help address grid challenges by “intelligently shifting” device charging to times of lower demand. It could also present customers with financial incentives to dispatch energy from their batteries and electric cars when needed.


----------



## basilio (30 March 2021)

moXJO said:


> https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2021/03/...wo-classic-cars-to-electric-all-on-their-own/
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind giving it a crack.
> ...




I can see a lot of people wanting to drive their old special car but with a quiet, powerful maintenance free electric motor.  There is already a market at the very top end. Be interesting to see if it extends further down.









						Bask in the majesty of this £500k fully-electric Rolls-Royce
					

Lunaz has unveiled its 1961 Phantom V electric restoration, and goodness, it’s a Thing




					www.topgear.com
				







__





						Technology - Lunaz Design - Classic Electric Cars
					

Lunaz, based in Silverstone, England is the world's leading restoration and electrification company for the most significant cars in history.




					lunaz.design


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

New entrant to the market.




__





						Petrol and diesel cars ‘could become extinct’ BEFORE 2030 ban
					





					www.msn.com
				



From the article:
_Fisker did, however, take a swipe at his Californian rival over its decision to build up its own Supercharger network and socket design.

“I don’t think it would be an advantage for the customer if every car maker makes their own charging station and own plug like Tesla has done because it becomes annoying for the consumer. Ultimately, the consumer needs to be able to go to any charging station – just like you would go to a gas station – and charge your car.”

Fisker confirmed the Ocean will be fitted with a CCS plug and will be able to accept a charging speed that adds 100 miles of range within 10 minutes_.

He got that right.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

It will be interesting to follow the data obtained from the two hydrogen refueling plants, one in Melbourne and one in Canberra, they are small and the fleet is miniscule but some trends should develop regarding problems etc.








						Toyota Opens Victoria's First Hydrogen Production And Storage Facility
					

The solar-powered site can produce approximately 80kg of hydrogen per day, according to Toyota.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## over9k (31 March 2021)

Yeah, standardise them like fuel pumps, have charging stations exactly like servo's now, the end.

Just gotta build the infrastructure.


To be fair, you can "refill" an electric car at home which you cannot do with an ICE car and that's a big, BIG change in how we use them. I just can't see a lot of charging stations actually being necessary for that reason.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2021)

over9k said:


> Yeah, standardise them like fuel pumps, have charging stations exactly like servo's now, the end.
> 
> Just gotta build the infrastructure.
> 
> ...



All valid points, the charging will have to be standardised when the uptake accelerates, which I think will be sooner than later.
As the uptake accelerates, the infrastructure will be rolled out to meet demand IMO.

Home charging will be offered by the homeowners electricity provider IMO, one it will lock in customers to a provider as the BEV charger and or the home battery storage will be required by the provider and the homeowner will pay for it in installments as per phone plans.

As you say most will charge at home, privately owned charging infrastructure IMO will be installed by the States and or the fuel companies as they will want to change from fossil fuel supply to EV charging. If they don't there will be a lot of fuel stations with no customers.
All just my thoughts.


----------



## over9k (31 March 2021)

Fuel stations aren't disappearing any time soon. It will be a LONG time before they start getting converted into something else.


----------



## Value Collector (31 March 2021)

over9k said:


> Fuel stations aren't disappearing any time soon. It will be a LONG time before they start getting converted into something else.




There will definitely be less charging stations needed than current petrol stations due to home charging, and competition from charging locations at things like shopping centres and office car parks.

Petrol stations have a limited life due to the cost of replacing or refurbishing their underground tanks, as the tanks meet their expiry date, owners will be faced with either removing the petrol pumps and focusing electric charging and convenience store, or paying out a huge sum to refurb tanks to compete for a shrinking market of petrol.

the petrol stations that will survive a switch to electric charging best, will be the ones along road trip routes that have good offerings for food and toilets, and become destinations road trippers look forward to stopping at.

the towns that have several petrol stations that exist just to serve locals could easily see most petrol stations disappear, leaving only the one of two that are most convenient with the highest non fuel sales.


----------



## over9k (1 April 2021)

Yeah, I reckon the fuel companies are way ahead of us here. 

I suspect they're having quite a few quiet conversations with charging companies like BLNK etc behind the scenes. Removing the underground fuel tanks would create a fantastic space to fill with a massive battery pack that could fast-charge cars and then charge 24/7 (so to speak) off the normal grid and thus avoid upgrading the grid itself. 

But again, how many people are going to use them? I suspect it's going to be a tiny fraction of people and that's only going to decrease as battery tech gets better. 

I.e the more juice batteries can charge, the less necessary charging stations are going to be. Even looking at the small number of servo's that are going to be converted, demand is only going to DECREASE for them as battery tech gets better. 

So my suspicion is that the first maybe 10% (or whatever) of servo's will get converted, but after that, battery tech itself will make even those virtually obsolete.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 April 2021)

I don't have any figures but I walk past the nearest servo pretty often and of an evening especially, I'd say that less than 50% of customers actually buy fuel. They're there to buy bread, milk, junk food or whatever from the shop not to fill their car with fuel.

Unfortunately I didn't have a phone with me otherwise I'd have taken a photo but yes I've seen an EV pulled up beside a petrol pump. Driver was buying something from the shop.

That would be very location specific obviously. Around here the servo is simply the nearest shop of any kind and the only retail outlet of any sort that's open 24 hours. All up, they seem to sell rather a lot of pies, donuts and so on and I suspect that's where the real profit is in it all.

Beyond that, at the global level at least Shell does have a presence overseas selling hydrogen and BP does have BP branded EV chargers. They exist and they look exactly like what you'd expect them to look like - same familiar logo and corporate colours etc.

One thing there's a general cautiousness about in the power industry, and this comes from the technical people by the way, is that technical people are very good at coming up with technical things but not generally much good at marketing and when it comes to the general public it's marketing which sells products not technical brilliance.

With that in mind the most obvious approach, from a technical perspective, is that EV owners will come home, plug their car in and leave it plugged in until next time they go somewhere. The car will basically always be in use as a car, parked at a destination, or sitting at home with the plug in. From a technical perspective that makes absolute sense.

There's a definite thought though that in practice that might be completely wrong in terms of what consumers actually do, at least unless someone persuades them to do it. Hence there's quite a bit of "yep that makes sense but let's see what happens in practice" sort of thinking. Nobody's totally convinced as to how it'll actually play out.

A point that often comes up is to then point out that there's a pretty long list of obsolete ideas and technologies which are still commonplace in practice meanwhile other far more recent ideas have been embraced by consumers to the point that their relatively recent predecessors are now _completely_ dead.

In 2021 you can still buy a newspaper, you can still withdraw cash over the counter at a bank and Australia Post still delivers letters but you can't rent a DVD. That's despite DVD's being the last of those to theoretically become obsolete - over the counter banking was old hat 35 years ago after all.

Even more odd, cassette tapes seem to be making a comeback.  

Consumers in practice do a lot of things that anyone looking at it from a purely technical perspective would never have expected.

That broad observation is leading to some "keep a close watch on it to see what happens" sort of thinking when it comes to EV charging. Everyone understands what logically will occur, but there's a definite thought that there's a risk that in practice consumers don't actually do what everyone assumes they'll do and that in practice they might, for example, all decide to plug the car in on Tuesday night or something like that.


----------



## over9k (1 April 2021)

Oh yes a mate of mine worked in a servo back when we were in school. They make just a few cents off the fuel - the overwhelming majority of the profit comes from selling the snacks, drinks etc. The fuel is just to get you in the door. Sometimes they even run it as a loss-leader.


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2021)

over9k said:


> Yeah, I reckon the fuel companies are way ahead of us here.
> 
> I suspect they're having quite a few quiet conversations with charging companies like BLNK etc behind the scenes. Removing the underground fuel tanks would create a fantastic space to fill with a massive battery pack that could fast-charge cars and then charge 24/7 (so to speak) off the normal grid and thus avoid upgrading the grid itself.
> 
> ...



Yep, think about the petrol stations you currently use the most and how regularly you visit them, most likely you only visit them 1 a week of so, and that normally first thing on your way out or last thing on your way home.

Now think about how often you would actually visit them if you had your own fuel pump in you garage that cost 25cents per litre, leaving home every morning with a full tank and knowing you can refill once you get home, you aren't going to be using any of those local fuel stations you do now.

You, will only be using a fuel station on longer road trips where you burn a full tank or more in a day, and thats not going to be the little local fuel stations in town you use for your daily drives, it will be the larger road houses out on the freeway, that have a McDonalds or a subway.

The suburbs that currently support multiple local service stations will be disappearing, unless they are super convenient for one reason or another.


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't have any figures but I walk past the nearest servo pretty often and of an evening especially, I'd say that less than 50% of customers actually buy fuel. They're there to buy bread, milk, junk food or whatever from the shop not to fill their car with fuel.
> 
> Unfortunately I didn't have a phone with me otherwise I'd have taken a photo but yes I've seen an EV pulled up beside a petrol pump. Driver was buying something from the shop.



True, I drove my Tesla to my nearest 7/11 petrol station today to put air in the tyres and get a veggie pasti and a Mountain Dew, but I used to do that every week in the old commodore, now its maybe once a month.

In my town we have 9 petrol stations a few are with 100m of each other, 2 actually right next to each other, it's hard to imagine them all surviving without the traffic brought by petrol sales, as I said a couple in each suburb might survive based on charging and the convenience store sales, but the ones that aren't well located will struggle and probably close.

Even the 24/7 availability of pies doesn't guarantee anything when you have McDonalds etc becoming 24/7 also these days in most areas, sure people will still want to buy cigarettes etc, but do we need 9 24/7 cigarette shops in my town? probably not.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 April 2021)

Thinking about a previous fuel situation, kerosene.

Back when I was a kid, every servo sold kerosene either from a pump or from a drum.

I'm not aware of any servo that still sells kerosene today. 

One by one they all got rid of it. Want kero and this servo no longer sells it? Go to another one then. Slowly but surely though the numbers dwindled to the point that it's now gone. If you want kerosene now, you'll need to buy it in bottles from a hardware store etc.

Two stroke the same. BP used to have it on the pump, the old Zoom 25 as it was called, but haven't seen that for a very long time now. If you want two stroke then you'll need to mix it yourself.

Same with other industries too. Eg video rental shops didn't all close overnight, they just closed one by one and there's few if any still trading today, the entire concept's simply no longer relevant.

Servos selling petrol I expect to be the same. Those with the worst locations and smallest volume will be the first to go and slowly but surely it'll decline. In due course a time will come when owning a petrol car is problematic due to fuel availability - not for many years but eventually it'll happen. 

What will become a problem in the fairly near future is LPG. As such it's still a product with major use but for running cars it's well and truly in major decline and already servos are routinely taking out the LPG tank and pumps. 

LPG sales for automotive use in 2019-20 were down 74% from the 2010-11 volume.  At that rate it'll be gone altogether later this decade in terms of a fuel used by cars.

LPG use for other purposes doesn't have that same decline but that's not really much help. Knowing that a factory's running forklifts with it or that someone's cooking with it at home doesn't fill your car. Even though it exists as such, as a motorist it's going to become a major difficulty to obtain in the not too distant future.

LPG sales for automotive use in megalitres:

2013-14 = 1823.3 
2014-15 = 1469.4
2015-16 = 1329.4
2016-17 = 1006.3
2017-18 = 779.3
2018-19 = 608.2
2019-20 = 520.7

So it's on a path to oblivion pretty quickly.


----------



## qldfrog (1 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Thinking about a previous fuel situation, kerosene.
> 
> Back when I was a kid, every servo sold kerosene either from a pump or from a drum.
> 
> ...



And in the 2000, lpg was all the rage, a bit like EV now, early adapters the taxi industry, scare of fire, green kudos, claims of big savings, gov incentives then quickly withdrawn
maybe an image of what will happen with EV.have a thought


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2021)

Yes @qldfrog, the Caltex down the road from my place has just had its LPG bulk storage tank removed.
The demise of the petrol stations has already started in W.A, with the advent of more efficient ICE engines a lot of the servos in country towns and on long routes eg Perth to Kal have closed, this is because most cars only need a maximum of one top up on the way.
When I was a young bloke, Kal to Perth was at least two tanks, HQ V8's weren't that fuel efficient. 😜 
My guess is there will only be enough business for one charging station, in most W.A country towns, the combination of home charging and cost of infrastructure to make the servo financially viable, will lead to consolidation.


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2021)

Yes Frog, LPG is on its way out, it is the electric hybrid that has killed it, the Taxi industry switched to hybrids instead of LPG, They didn't switch back to pure petrol.

I myself owned an LPG car from 2003 till 2019 when I got the Tesla, it was fantastic having the LPG car all those years, I had massive savings in fuel costs, especially because over that time there was a number a fuel shocks when petrol went through the roof.

LPG disappearing isn't a vote for petrol, its a vote for EV's because as I said its the Hybrids that are killing LPG demand, and its the Pure Electrics that will kill petrol demand, and Petrol pumps will eventually begin a decade long decline just like Smurf explained LPG is facing.

I remember back when I first filled my LPG tank, LPG was $0.295 cents, today the Tesla is cheaper than that.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> LPG sales for automotive use in megalitres:



I should have mentioned that those figures are Australian Government statistics so should be accurate.


----------



## qldfrog (1 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes @qldfrog, the Caltex down the road from my place has just had its LPG bulk storage tank removed.
> The demise of the petrol stations has already started in W.A, with the advent of more efficient ICE engines a lot of the servos in country towns and on long routes eg Perth to Kal have closed, this is because most cars only need a maximum of one top up on the way.
> When I was a young bloke, Kal to Perth was at least two tanks, HQ V8's weren't that fuel efficient. 😜
> My guess is there will only be enough business for one charging station, in most W.A country towns, the combination of home charging and cost of infrastructure to make the servo financially viable, will lead to consolidation.



I wonder also if we will have big generator next:
It is one thing to carry a trucload of fuel into the outback from time to time and refill the remote servos  in the roadhouses, another to bring reliable major power  to these.
As long as those woke media and political leaders keep listening to european or asian schemes, we will be screwed.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2021)

qldfrog said:


> I wonder also if we will have big generator next:
> It is one thing to carry a trucload of fuel into the outback from time to time and refill the remote servos  in the roadhouses, another to bring reliable major power  to these.
> As long as those woke media and political leaders keep listening to european or asian schemes, we will be screwed.



My guess is in some instances H2 will reign supreme.


----------



## qldfrog (1 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> My guess is in some instances H2 will reign supreme.



so delivery of H2 by truck to feed a generator and load the city slickers ;\'Tesla utes at the roadhouse?


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2021)

qldfrog said:


> so delivery of H2 by truck to feed a generator and load the city slickers ;\'Tesla utes at the roadhouse?



Not really, I have always lived and worked in the outback, I was a project supervisor for regional and remote power stations, lived in Dampier before there was a Karratha or a Wickham, crossed the Nullabor before it was sealed, have done the Canning stock route and the Simpson desert, crossed the great central road numerous times. So I'm just try to think what is logical, logistically and practically.

My guess is that there will be solar/H2 mix, solar to charge BEV's because in reality not many drive anymore, it costs $450 to fly Perth/Sydney to drive costs about $2,000 depending on vehicle how many people and accomodation/ food preferences.
So the only major fuel concern is for freight truck fueling, I think H2 is probably the logical fuel, however battery may by viable, so ATM it is up in the air.
So the road houses will have large solar arrays charging BEV's and making H2, the benefit with H2 it can be trucked in if local production fails. Time will tell.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 April 2021)

There's also the reality that a 1MW diesel generator fits in a 20' shipping container and if all else fails then it's not actually a problem if the less than 1% of vehicle charging that's done in the middle of nowhere is powered from diesel. It still gets the other >99% off liquid fuels.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's also the reality that a 1MW diesel generator fits in a 20' shipping container and if all else fails then it's not actually a problem if the less than 1% of vehicle charging that's done in the middle of nowhere is powered from diesel. It still gets the other >99% off liquid fuels.



Absolutely, Cummings make a beautiful 1MW acoustically covered skid mount, i have commissioned many.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> it costs $450 to fly Perth/Sydney to drive costs about $2,000 depending on vehicle how many people and accomodation/ food preferences.



Costs quite a lot when there's 4 people and you make the trip with two cars and a motorbike.   

Our accommodation was pretty cheap though.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Costs quite a lot when there's 4 people and you make the trip with two cars and a motorbike.
> 
> Our accommodation was pretty cheap though.



That's true when the 4 kids were young, we drove over East in a bitsashiti L300 1600cc, towing a campa van, top speed 80kl/hr.
Was booked going through a two horse town, in the middle of nowhere, at 2am on thur morning, doing 80kl/hr.lol
I said to the cop, mate you need a life. 😂
But to put it in context, when a good mate got married in Adelaide in the mid 1980's and wanted me as best man, it cost me $950 return from Perth, I couldn't afford to pay for the wife to go.


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's also the reality that a 1MW diesel generator fits in a 20' shipping container and if all else fails then it's not actually a problem if the less than 1% of vehicle charging that's done in the middle of nowhere is powered from diesel. It still gets the other >99% off liquid fuels.



Especially if that diesel genny is just there to back up a solar and battery system.


----------



## over9k (1 April 2021)

That's if you can get one: https://www.bloombergquint.com/chin...-lifts-diesel-use-as-factories-buy-generators 

Unlike the chip shortage, they've kept this particular shortage very quiet. Don't want to admit that AU has far more leverage reference coal than people realise


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely, Cummings make a beautiful 1MW acoustically covered skid mount, i have commissioned many.




Here's some outside Catagunya power station (Tasmania) in early 2016 being installed in a great hurry.

For everyone else not familiar, the round cover on top comes off and the exhaust pipe fits in there. Cables go in the hatch beside the door.

Fuel = normal diesel fuel, nothing special.

These have long since been removed by the way, it was a temporary installation only.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Here's some outside Catagunya power station (Tasmania) in early 2016 being installed in a great hurry.
> 
> For everyone else not familiar, the round cover on top comes off and the exhaust pipe fits in there. Cables go in the hatch beside the door.
> 
> ...



Easy peasy, great units, plug and play no remote radiators, pure magic


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 April 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Especially if that diesel genny is just there to back up a solar and battery system.



Indeed.

A point often missed is that it doesn't have to be perfect, it's not a case of 100% renewables or 100% fossil fuels to power cars, it's still a huge leap forward even if there's a bit of diesel power in the mix used to charge them when required.

It's not as though more than a tiny portion of car travel is actually in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## over9k (1 April 2021)

And if you're on a long trip you'll be able to charge at the hotel/caravan park anyway. 

As I was saying before, oil as a consumer energy source is in structural decline.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> A point often missed is that it doesn't have to be perfect, it's not a case of 100% renewables or 100% fossil fuels to power cars, it's still a huge leap forward even if there's a bit of diesel power in the mix used to charge them when required.
> 
> It's not as though more than a tiny portion of car travel is actually in the middle of nowhere.



OMG at last, common ground.


----------



## Value Collector (1 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> A point often missed is that it doesn't have to be perfect, it's not a case of 100% renewables or 100% fossil fuels to power cars, it's still a huge leap forward even if there's a bit of diesel power in the mix used to charge them when required.
> 
> It's not as though more than a tiny portion of car travel is actually in the middle of nowhere.



Yep, never let "perfection" be the enemy of "good".


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, never let "perfection" be the enemy of "good".



That is the current stumbling block with everything ATM, it is my way or the highway mentality in climate change politics just about everything, when in reality this is what is holding everything up, there isn't a perfect right or a perfect wrong when you are trying to achieve the same goal.


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2021)

over9k said:


> That's if you can get one: https://www.bloombergquint.com/chin...-lifts-diesel-use-as-factories-buy-generators
> 
> Unlike the chip shortage, they've kept this particular shortage very quiet. Don't want to admit that AU has far more leverage reference coal than people realise



From personal experience the colder the weather the better quality diesel is required, or external heating is required, which in itself cost more to run.


----------



## qldfrog (1 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's true when the 4 kids were young, we drove over East in a bitsashiti L300 1600cc, towing a campa van, top speed 80kl/hr.
> Was booked going through a two horse town, in the middle of nowhere, at 2am on thur morning, doing 80kl/hr.lol
> I said to the cop, mate you need a life. 😂
> But to put it in context, when a good mate got married in Adelaide in the mid 1980's and wanted me as best man, it cost me $950 return from Perth, I couldn't afford to pay for the wife to go.



The way things are going between covid measures killing air companies and ,carbon taxes and ideology killing airfares: the bargain fares may not stay  relevant for much longer
In europe, green extremists  target airfares and ours will probably follow.


----------



## qldfrog (2 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> A point often missed is that it doesn't have to be perfect, it's not a case of 100% renewables or 100% fossil fuels to power cars, it's still a huge leap forward even if there's a bit of diesel power in the mix used to charge them when required.
> 
> It's not as though more than a tiny portion of car travel is actually in the middle of nowhere.



My point is just that the solutions being developed are made for conditions vastly different from Australia: distances, temperatures etc. Nothing news but we will have to add a level of custom made adaptation which will add to costs.
For example, if you power your remote chargers with h2 vs just road shipping diesel or unleaded , you add costs
More volume needed so more trucks for same energy worsen by the extra losses in the h2 generator to electricity to batteries.And standard
Fuels will be more and more expensive ( we do not even refine much here) in a possible world with ev.
If the aim was really to lower carbon emission, we would also favor synthetic fuels able to run existing fleet AND infrastructure.
As we do not, i believe the aim is the Reset and so a major replacement of existing infrastructure and society behaviour, and not socalled carbon reduction.time will tell if EVs are the 2020 LPG cars


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's true when the 4 kids were young, we drove over East in a bitsashiti L300 1600cc, towing a campa van, top speed 80kl/hr.



Our trip consisted of 4 people, a 17 year old 4 cyl hatchback, an old Morris and a motorbike.

Think "Top Gear road trip" inspired. 

Starting point = a fast food restaurant car park in suburban Melbourne. 

Accommodation = caravan parks, roadhouses, pubs, cheap motels.

Lots of fun. Not much to do with EV's though although I wonder how easy it would be to do the same trip in an EV today? That is, if there's any gaps in charging infrastructure that would preclude it?


----------



## Value Collector (2 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Our trip consisted of 4 people, a 17 year old 4 cyl hatchback, an old Morris and a motorbike.
> 
> Think "Top Gear road trip" inspired.
> 
> ...



Plenty of Tesla’s have crossed the Nullarbor, if you look on the plug share app all the charging locations are marked, with multiple people checking in on different dates, and writing reviews of the charging spots.

some of the charging locations are just power points at motels or caravan parks etc but it’s doable.


----------



## sptrawler (2 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Our trip consisted of 4 people, a 17 year old 4 cyl hatchback, an old Morris and a motorbike.
> 
> Think "Top Gear road trip" inspired.
> 
> ...



Well i have always done road trips, from Perth there isn't many options, so with the kids we did 16 nullabor trips, 6 great central road trips, Simpson desert trip, trips north of Alice, trips South of Alice.
Then I have driven the Nullabor in 72 in a HG 253, driven the Nullabor in 73 on a Honda 4, Driven the Nullabor several times since then with the kids, Jeez driven it enough times to know how it could be driven in a BEV ffs.
I'm over this.
Forgot I drove it on a Kwaka 1000j and on a BMW 1100RS, jeez i don't want to drive it again, but with these travel restrictions, it may be better than nothing.


----------



## sptrawler (4 April 2021)

Interesting article on real life driving a hybrid and concurs with what I found when I drove one, if you are in a city with stop start, they work well.








						2021 Toyota Yaris Cross GXL hybrid review
					

It's the dead-set middle option, is it any good?




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## basilio (11 April 2021)

The issue of what to do with millions of dead Lithium Ion batteries has spurred a new industry out of Tesla itself.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

What I talked about at the beginning of this thread, is starting to take shape a capacitor/ battery hybrid.
It will probably have a long way to go, but IMO it is the answer, a battery that can be charged like a capacitor and discharged like a battery. 
So fast charging and good storage capacity.








						New Type of Battery Created That Can Charge 10x Faster Than Lithium-Ion Batteries
					

Moreover, it is safer in terms of potential fire hazards and has a lower environmental impact. It is difficult to imagine our daily life without lithium-ion batteries. They dominate the small format battery market for portable electronic devices, and are also commonly used in electric vehicles. A



					scitechdaily.com


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

Michelin getting into hydrogen production.








						Michelin looks to hydrogen future to diversify business
					

It wants to increase its revenue by around 65 per cent




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Michelin getting into hydrogen production.



Of all companies I'd have thought might get involved, that one's a definite surprise really. It's a completely different business and not a "natural" extension like oil / gas / electricity companies or even telecommunications or shipping.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Of all companies I'd have thought might get involved, that one's a definite surprise really. It's a completely different business and not a "natural" extension like oil / gas / electricity companies or even telecommunications or shipping.



They obviously think it is a growth opportunity, in a field where no one at present has a natural advantage.
As I said in the early days of this thread, BEV's are the obvious go to technology  in the early phase of E.V growth, as the up take becomes larger and the whole fleet of 1.4billion ICE cars are replaced, hydrogen then becomes more sustainable.
Add to that 4.2 million heavy trucks and 20million light trucks were made last year, like I said batteries are great ATM, but long term?

Just my opinion, and it will take some time, but when companies like Michelin can see the opportunity, there obviously is one.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2021)

basilio said:


> The issue of what to do with millions of dead Lithium Ion batteries has spurred a new industry out of Tesla itself.




And an Australian company moving into the same space that @Dona Ferentes brought our attention to, so a lot of companies are looking into battery recycling.




__





						Lithium-ion Battery Recycling – Neometals
					






					www.neometals.com.au


----------



## qldfrog (13 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Just my opinion, and it will take some time, but when companies like Michelin can see the opportunity, there obviously is one



Michelin is French so its approach is probably  based more on a gov based incentive/tax computation than any raw capitalist ROI computation.
Same for the greening of European car manufacturers ...
Even EVs use tyres so Michelin should not be affected but the Reset wants to suppress cars and plane travel for the masses: the *deplorable* as Clinton says,the *toothless* as socialist french president Hollande said..
There is so much more behind that EV push than the fossil fuel story.
People here in Australia have no idea of the state intervention level in the EU and soon US.
Sadly history does repeat itself,and this always ends in tears when bureaucracy replace free entrepreneurship/real capitalism. Sure many people here will disagree...


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Michelin is French so its approach is probably  based more on a gov based incentive/tax computation than any raw capitalist ROI computation.
> Same for the greening of European car manufacturers ...
> Even EVs use tyres so Michelin should not be affected but the Reset wants to suppress cars and plane travel for the masses: the *deplorable* as Clinton says,the *toothless* as socialist french president Hollande said..
> There is so much more behind that EV push than the fossil fuel story.
> ...



Interesting point frog, I hadn't thought of it from the tax incentive angle.


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2021)

This is interesting, it will be interesting to see how the installation of H2 refueling outlets goes, obviously Toyota and Hyundia are pretty serious about H2 EV's. I personally think they are a long way off, but obviously these car makers think there is a future.








						2021 Toyota Mirai: Australia's first hydrogen car on sale to the public 'within a couple of years'
					

As soon as enough refuelling points are installed




					www.drive.com.au
				



from the article:
Japanese car giant Toyota and South Korean conglomerate Hyundai launched hydrogen-car fleet trails in Australia within days of each other earlier this month – though the latter was first to register its fleet locally.
However, Toyota is already gearing up to make the Mirai hydrogen car available for the public to buy within two to three years from now.
In the meantime, Toyota and Hyundai are only allowing specialised fleets to run its test vehicles in trail scenarios, as there is only one refuelling point in Canberra and one in Melbourne. There is a third refuelling point behind Hyundai's head office in Sydney.

However, other hydrogen refuelling stations are due to come on stream in Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne in the next two to three years; in Europe hydrogen is available alongside petrol and diesel bowsers at selected service stations.
When asked if it would be at least five to 10 years before hydrogen-powered cars would be available for the public to buy locally, a senior Toyota Australia executive told CarAdvice “I think it’s probably less than that”.

“I think it's a couple of years,” said Sean Hanley, Toyota Australia’s head of sales and marketing. “I'm not thinking it’s five years … I'm thinking it might be two to three years away.”

Toyota says it will handle the rollout of the Mirai hydrogen car at first, but eventually it will be sold alongside the Corolla, Camry, RAV4, and HiLux in suburban showrooms.


“We've said to our dealer network initially we'll manage the Mirai launch, only because the infrastructure is limited,” said Mr Hanley.

“But it’s our full intention – and I'm on record as talking to our own dealer network – (that) as soon as we get some more widespread refuelling options, our intention is the Mirai will be sold as a mainstream vehicle by all our Toyota dealers.”


----------



## basilio (15 April 2021)

It seems that the economic viability of *all * new US cars being electric by 2035 is on the table. Essentially price parity with petrol will come with a few years and the next critical issues are
1) Sufficient recharging points to enable access by all people
2) Expanded  national renewable energy systems with storage capacity
3) Industrial capacity to produce new electric cars. Copper and lithium supplies seem to the bottle necks.









						Advances mean all new US vehicles can be electric by 2035, study finds
					

Rapid electrification could save drivers $2.7tn by 2050 as cost of batteries to fall and recharge points to increase




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## over9k (16 April 2021)

Just in case anyone's wondering how the alternatives to electric are doing.

It went -16% on the day today. So bad that the website has crashed/is unreachable.


Here's plug power and blink charging, who make the aforementioned charging stations we've been discussing as not being a long term business too:






How could people not realise that these were not long term businesses?

Probably all the newbies/reddit traders from the last year or so on the hype train and now getting stung.


----------



## basilio (17 April 2021)

So how will we find enough rare earth minerals to electrify the worlds cars ?

_There are an estimated 1.4bn cars on the world’s roads today. Around 78m new cars are sold every year. To head off the worst effects of climate change, every single one will need to go electric eventually.

Whether it rolls off a production line in Fremont, California, or comes together in a vast megafactory in Qinghai, China, a colossal amount of human effort must go into building the components and obtaining their base minerals. In each car, for instance, there is roughly a kilogram of magnet providing the motion needed to fire engines and electrify windows. Roughly 30% of this material is made up of rare earth material known as neodymium and praseodymium (NdPr).

This material is three times stronger and a tenth the size of conventional magnets – and essential to the process. In 2016, Japanese car manufacturer Honda tried and failed to build a hybrid vehicle without rare earths. Over the next decade the use of NdPr in electric vehicle magnets alone is projected to soak up 40% of total demand, according to some projections.









						The race for rare earth minerals: can Australia fuel the electric vehicle revolution?
					

China dominates supply of the elusive metals, which are vital to modern technology, but finding new sources is becoming a global priority




					www.theguardian.com
				



_


----------



## over9k (19 April 2021)




----------



## over9k (19 April 2021)

Also, not sure how relevant this is to electric cars but it's worth a watch IMO:


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2021)

@Value Collector, be a bit careful when using your Tesla model 3, in auto pilot mode.








						Tesla with ‘no one’ driving crashes, killing two
					

A Tesla electric car that “no one” appeared to be driving has crashed in Texas, erupting into flames and killing the two passengers, according to local authorities.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (19 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> @Value Collector, be a bit careful when using your Tesla model 3, in auto pilot mode.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why was there no one in the drivers seat???

sounds like they were trying to do something crazy and it back fired.

When your car is in autopilot, you are meant to be in the drivers seat, paying attention. We aren’t at the full Auto stage yet where you can be in the back sleeping.

I have seen YouTube videos of people doing silly thing, it makes me cringe.


----------



## sptrawler (19 April 2021)

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV hybrid, has had the vehicle 2 grid enabled, in the 2021 model, which makes it an interesting option for those with solar and still require the distance ability of an ICE engined car.
https://evcentral.com.au/v2g-charging-tech-for-mitsubishi-outlander-phevs-back-to-my17/
From the article:
_Vehicle-to-grid charging technology will soon be available for the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which now includes a sporty new GSR variant as part of an updated model.

Vehicle-to-grid – or V2G – has been available on the Outlander since late 2016 (MY17 models) but is only being enabled now following the imminent arrival of new hardware required to liase with Australian electricity grids.

While the just-updated Outlander PHEV will be able to power a house or feed electricity back into the grid, older Outlander PHEVs dating back almost four years will also be able to benefit from the bi-directional charging tech that is being touted as an EV game changer.

Key to the availability of V2G technology is a vehicle-to-grid charger, something that has delayed Nissan from offering it on the Leaf EV, which is otherwise technically capable. Infrastructure provider Jet Charge is about to begin selling the first V2G charger, the Wallbox Quasar, expected to cost about $8000.

Mitsubishi says the charger was put through grid certification in recent weeks and is expected to be available early in 2021. By late 2021 Mitsubishi expects more bi-directional charging options, one of which could include Australian company Rectifier Technologies.

That then unlocks to potential to use the Outlander PHEV as an electricity storage device.

The Outlander PHEV was initially offered with a 12.0kWh battery but in December 2019 that increased to 13.8kWh.

That’s similar to the 13.5kWh available from a single Tesla Powerwall, which sells from $11,700 (excluding installation, which can add a few thousand dollars). Most houses would require at least two Powerwalls, especially if they want to use them as the sole energy source; most households use between 15 and 30kWh of electricity per day, although that varies depending on the home, the location, the season and whether the home has energy-intensive systems such as a pool or heating_.


----------



## basilio (20 April 2021)

Outstanding article on why  well priced electric cars aren't currently avaible in Australia.   Government policy and dollars.

_Volkswagen says it will ship EVs to Australia if the government introduces EU-style mandatory carbon targets backed up with fines.
This would solve the supply shortage by giving car makers a greater financial incentive to ship EVs to Australia, Mr Bartsch said.
"Where you have no legislative imperative, that is always going to be the last place you send the vehicles."_









						Australians want electric vehicles, but car makers won't ship them here. Here's why
					

Surveys show Australians want to buy electric vehicles, but they continue to languish at less than 1 per cent of new car sales. What's going on?




					www.abc.net.au
				




Australia's rate of EV car sales is rapidly falling behind that of other developed countries
Consumer interest is high, but there are problems with the supply of affordable models
Manufacturers say they're not shipping EVs to Australia due to government policy


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2021)

basilio said:


> Outstanding article on why  well priced electric cars aren't currently avaible in Australia.   Government policy and dollars.



Which usually equals, another sector putting its hands out for tax payer subsidies.


----------



## rederob (20 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Which usually equals, another sector putting its hands out for tax payer subsidies.



Done properly it works the opposite way.
Tax ICE vehicles based on CO2 emissions.
But Oz is a backwater on CO2 legislation.


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2021)

rederob said:


> Done properly it works the opposite way.
> Tax ICE vehicles based on CO2 emissions.
> But Oz is a backwater on CO2 legislation.



I think that is better than subsidising E.V's, at the end of the day, it is up to the manufacturers to change over.
They will reap the rewards of lower labor costs in the end and have been making plenty out of ICE vehicles for years, so to have taxpayers subsidising them just doesn't sit well with me.
Putting a Government tax on ICE vehicles makes much more sense.


----------



## patrickshaw (20 April 2021)

tothemax6 said:


> Hi All,
> Interested to know what peoples opinions of electric cars are. I personally would prefer an electric car, but not for environmental reasons. I think the cheaper refueling and possible higher power-to-weight ratios would be a big plus. I also think that it might be a car I would have some chance of being able to fix myself, since it is more electrically based than the conventional highly mechanical petrol car.
> I can see some disadvantages though, namely current battery technology (the cars power weakens with use, like a cordless drill).
> 
> Thoughts on the electric car?



Agreed


----------



## rederob (20 April 2021)

patrickshaw said:


> Agreed



Missed 176 pages!


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 April 2021)

basilio said:


> Consumer interest is high, but there are problems with the supply of affordable models
> Manufacturers say they're not shipping EVs to Australia due to government policy



I question how high consumer interest really is if they're not willing to buy a car without government forcing them?

Same with anything from bricks to a circus show. If people actually want it then they buy it, they don't wait for government to force them. Apart from taxes, about the only thing I can think of that I've ever bought and which government requires that I must have is a smoke detector. Even there though, I'd have bought one anyway.

No current car model has a law forcing it to be sold or purchased after all and if manufacturers thought EV's would sell in large number then they'd be crazy to not offer them. Same as any business - they offer for sale what they think customers will buy, nobody waits for government to tell them what to do.

I think what they really mean is they can make more profit by selling them somewhere that government mandates it and that they'll chase that most profitable market. Make Australia more profitable and they'll do the same here.

Note that I'm not saying government shouldn't intervene, just arguing that consumers don't really seem too keen or at least the manufacturers don't perceive that consumers are keen.

What governments could do something about though is to stop the "arms race" with vehicle size. From a safety perspective alone it's getting ridiculous and creates a situation where anyone able to afford the cost and with concerns about safety will feel a need to join in, pushing up emissions as a result and further perpetuating the arms race. What was a "big car" one generation ago is arguably a bit too small to be safe these days. Even if it does have all the latest safety features, the simple fact that someone else's bumper is at the same height as your windows is a very real issue.


----------



## rederob (20 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I question how high consumer interest really is if they're not willing to buy a car without government forcing them?
> 
> Same with anything from bricks to a circus show. If people actually want it then they buy it, they don't wait for government to force them. Apart from taxes, about the only thing I can think of that I've ever bought and which government requires that I must have is a smoke detector. Even there though, I'd have bought one anyway.
> 
> ...



Government policy should be for the public good.
That means making smart decisions.
The issue does not relate to *forcing* anyone to do something.
It's about incentivising good ideas, and penalising bad ones.
CO2 is not good.
Vehicle emissions are unhealthy.
Vehicle noise should be curtailed.

Aside from tht, job creation is strongest in green industries.
Again, where are we on that?


----------



## Value Collector (20 April 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I question how high consumer interest really is if they're not willing to buy a car without government forcing them?
> 
> Same with anything from bricks to a circus show. If people actually want it then they buy it, they don't wait for government to force them. Apart from taxes, about the only thing I can think of that I've ever bought and which government requires that I must have is a smoke detector. Even there though, I'd have bought one anyway.
> 
> ...



Consumers don’t often know what they want.

As Henry Ford said, if he had asked consumers what they want they would have said a faster horse.

To be honest I think public demand would be much higher if people understood more about EV’s, The I regularly get asked questions about my car when I am in parking lots etc, and you can tell by the questions that get asked people are pretty clueless (not their fault).

The most regular question I get asked is “where do you charge it” and the people are shocked to find out I just plug into a regular power point, the next question is “how long does it take” which again is a misunderstood topic, people seem turned off if I say my something like 10 hours even though their car sits in their garage all night anyway, and they don’t understand there are faster options, but it’s hard to explain in a 5 second sound bite


----------



## over9k (21 April 2021)

https://www.graniteshares.com/institutional/uk/en-uk/etps/ 

Graniteshares have listed a bunch of leveraged options into tesla, nio etc for those who want to bet on them. But listed on the LSE.


----------



## basilio (25 April 2021)

Great little piece from Honest Government ads on the current governments rubbish EV policies.


----------



## sptrawler (28 April 2021)

BEV's are about to become afforable.








						2021 BYD EA1: Australia’s “sub-$35,000” electric car revealed
					

The budget hatchback will have a range of 500km and accelerate from 0-100km/h in 'less than 5.0 seconds', according to the Australian importer.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
New details of the *upcoming BYD electric hatchback* – which importer Nexport claims will be* sold in Australia for “well under $35,000”* when order books open later this year – have been revealed exclusively to _CarAdvice_.
The Chinese-built five-door – which was unveiled as the EA1 in China last week, but will be sold locally under a different nameplate – has a* range of approximately 500km*, according to Nexport founder Luke Todd.

Meanwhile, the 0-100km/h sprint will reportedly take “less than 5.0 seconds” in entry-level guise – comparable acceleration to the launch control-equipped Volkswagen Golf R hot hatch.

“Our range of six cars will completely change the automotive landscape in Australia, and we expect to be a top-five manufacturer within 24 months,” Mr Todd told _CarAdvice_.

“There has been a lot of discussion about the government’s role in electric vehicle take-up, but our view is that electric cars need to be able to compete with internal combustion cars on price – we believe we are the manufacturer to make that happen,” Mr Todd added.

Assuming the aforementioned performance figures are accurate – and the car is sold for under $35,000 with a reasonable warranty – the BYD hatchback could well be a complete game changer for the local market.


----------



## PZ99 (29 April 2021)

This is how it should've been done in the first place.

Good ole swap and go > https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ney-and-brisbane-using-exchangeable-batteries


----------



## sptrawler (29 April 2021)

PZ99 said:


> This is how it should've been done in the first place.
> 
> Good ole swap and go > https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ney-and-brisbane-using-exchangeable-batteries



The Chinese are leaning toward the swap and go model.








						EV battery swapping is dead in US, but China wants to make it happen
					

Whether or not you think EV battery swapping is a good idea, Beijing likes it. More importantly, the Chinese government can make it happen




					electrek.co
				












						Nio has now done two million electric car battery swaps
					

Chinese EV maker Nio completes two millionth battery swap, powering almost 400 million kilometres of emissions-free driving from its battery swap stations.




					thedriven.io


----------



## qldfrog (29 April 2021)

sptrawler said:


> BEV's are about to become afforable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a brand I would trust as I have experienced zillions..well maybe less of these zapping past day and night, cold or hot , dry or wet when in China .And if they get it at $35k, a winner.let's see the details, by then we might be blocking import from China as their army will then prevent chip shipping from Taipei ;-)


----------



## basilio (29 April 2021)

PZ99 said:


> This is how it should've been done in the first place.
> 
> Good ole swap and go > https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ney-and-brisbane-using-exchangeable-batteries




If the figures and engineering are right this is an exceptionally  clever proposal by Janus Electric. Essentially they have developed a universal battery pack that can be grafted onto 90% of trucks. The proposal is that after 5 years and probably 600-800k the trucks need to  have the motor overhauled .

Fine. So instead of a traditional overhaul replace the motor with an electric drive and then* rent the battery pack. *On their figures the payback for the conversion is 12 months.  And the trucks are far more comfortable to drive and maintenance falls away dramatically.

Essentially one gets an electric truck for 85K using the body of the vehicles the truckers already have.

In theory one could electrify a car but the economics aren't compelling. But a truck that spends its life relentlessly travelling between Sydney and  Brisbane ?  Its a piece of cake and an economic dream.   Won't necessarily work for every application but far better value for the next 15 years.









						Swap and go: electric trucks to run between Sydney and Brisbane using exchangeable batteries
					

Batteries can be swapped in three minutes, removing the need for trucks to plug in and charge




					www.theguardian.com
				












						NSW-based Janus Electric prepares road test for exchangeable battery for big rigs
					

NSW-based Janus Electric says its exchangeable battery system for heavy vehicles will cut energy costs by 50% and will encourage trucking industry to go electric.




					thedriven.io


----------



## basilio (29 April 2021)




----------



## basilio (30 April 2021)

But  if you can't bear to let your rusty 1969 F100 go to heaven perhaps check out Zero Labs..









						Watch Zero Labs convert an old rusty truck into an EV in 24 hours
					

EV designer Zero Labs shared a video of its EV platform designed specifically for classic cars being implemented on a 50-year-old truck.




					electrek.co


----------



## over9k (10 May 2021)

I'm not bullish on china but I am on EV's in china.


----------



## bsnews (10 May 2021)

We sell the bauxite to other countries for next to nothing. We then buy back the aluminium at an exorbitant price that we could of made cheaper then any other country and reduce pollution. 
When will be build enough power plants that will alllow us to plug all the EV's into? 

Now hydrogen looks a better bet for us.


----------



## sptrawler (10 May 2021)

bsnews said:


> We sell the bauxite to other countries for next to nothing. We then buy back the aluminium at an exorbitant price that we could of made cheaper then any other country and reduce pollution.
> When will be build enough power plants that will alllow us to plug all the EV's into?
> 
> Now hydrogen looks a better bet for us.



The only issue with hydrogen, we will need twice as much power, as BEV's.
But I think we will end up on H2.


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2021)

BP and Shell moving into the electric car charging space.








						BMW and Daimler partner with BP to grow electrification efforts
					

The newly-formed agreement is set to create 70,000 new charging stations globally by 2030.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Digital Charging Solutions GmbH – a public charging infrastructure company owned by BMW Group and Daimler Mobility – has agreed to partner with oil industry giant BP to grow its network of charging stations.
The agreement will see BP hold a 33.3 per cent stake in Digital Charging Solutions alongside the two German prestige marques.
Digital Charging Solutions currently operates public charging services for Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Mini via a network of 228,000 charging stations in 32 countries.
The agreement will see BP's 8700 charging stations added, alongside the planned introduction of 70,000 more charging stations worldwide by 2030.
In a similar move, oil and gas giant Shell recently purchased British public electric vehicle charging network Ubitricity, which currently manages approximately 2700 charging points throughout the UK.


----------



## rederob (12 May 2021)

Compelling case for the "future" of EVs as a *lifestyle product*:


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Compelling case for the "future" of EVs as a *lifestyle product*:




Makes a huge amount of sense, not everyone needs 500klm of range, especially if they are only using them as city run arounds.


----------



## over9k (13 May 2021)

NIO can now be traded with a 3x bull etf on the LSE, ticker "3LNI". It's even listed in USD. 

NIO chart lately looks lovely too:


----------



## basilio (14 May 2021)

Excellent ongoing summary of EV sales                                                               
Electric Vehicle Sales Charts, Graphs, & Stats​ 




__





						Electric Vehicle Sales Charts, Graphs, & Stats
					

This article is dedicated to electric vehicle (EV) sales charts updated at least once a month. Many of the charts are interactive and often don't display well on smartphones — best to view this page




					cleantechnica.com


----------



## sptrawler (15 May 2021)

Hyundai to build an EV production plant in the U.S









						Hyundai will make EVs in the US starting in 2022
					

At least one of its upcoming electric vehicles will be made in America—although the automaker hasn't confirmed where and what.




					www.greencarreports.com


----------



## sptrawler (18 May 2021)

Interesting economy run by a Hyundai hydrogen electric car from Melbourne to Broken Hill.








						Hyundai Nexo hydrogen car sets distance record from Melbourne to Broken Hill, comes back on a trailer
					

Hyundai Australia has overtaken the previous hydrogen car record set in 2019 by a French aeronaut.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
During the record attempt, the Nexo was driven by professional rally driver Brendan Reeves, starting from Essendon Fields on the outskirts of Melbourne.

After 807km of “efficiency-focused driving”, the Nexo arrived in Broken Hill with plenty of range still showing on the vehicle’s trip computer.
Organisers then decided to continue the journey to Silverton – best known as the setting for 1980s action film Mad Max 2.
The Hyundai Nexo continued past Silverton for another 60km until its hydrogen tank was depleted on the Wilangee road near Eldee Station.
Hyundai says the total distance driven was 887.5km, according to the Nexo’s trip computer. This surpassed the previous 778km record in France – also in a Hyundai Nexo – set in 2019 in a run from Sarreguemines to Le Bourget.
Interestingly, the distance measured by a separate GPS unit on the Hyundai Nexo showed a distance travelled of 903.4km, and Google Maps showed a distance of 905km.
Hyundai claims the Nexo purified 449,100 litres of air on the journey – enough for 33 adults to breathe in a day – and its plastic exhaust pipe emitted only water vapour.
Whereas a standard petrol car would have emitted an estimated 126kg of CO2 over the same distance


----------



## basilio (18 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Compelling case for the "future" of EVs as a *lifestyle product*:





Very thought provoking. Well worth checking out IMV.

Also highlights how strong China is creatively and  industrially.


----------



## rederob (18 May 2021)

basilio said:


> Very thought provoking. Well worth checking out IMV.
> Also highlights how strong China is creatively and  industrially.



I was listening to a BBC program on autonomous vehicles last night, and how pundits got the date wrong because all we have at the moment are really good "cruise controlled" cars (eg Tesla's).
True auto pilot mode will come - maybe a few years a way - and when it does the "accessory" nature of a vehicle that the video suggested probably wont work too well on an ICE vehicle unless it has a much larger battery capacity to continuously power the occupants gadgetry.  It's akin to the transition from old style mobiles to smart phones.


----------



## basilio (18 May 2021)

Came across an excellent story on Bloomberg looking at electric cars.
Check out the picture of a woman charging her electric car in her garage in 1912  !

171 Years Before Tesla: The Evolution of Electric Vehicles​ 
Battery-powered cars have come a long way from the first electric carriages.


                   5 January 2019, 10:00 pm AEDT

https://www.bloomberg.com/hyperdrive


In 1900, electric cars accounted for about one-third of all vehicles on U.S. roads -- and then almost disappeared from the landscape as gasoline-engine models took over.




__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## qldfrog (19 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting economy run by a Hyundai hydrogen electric car from Melbourne to Broken Hill.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



126kg of CO2 or to put things in perspective what a tree would have absorbed to create a 70kg log of dry wood.Now remember last year bushfires ....A few controlled burns and more reasonable vegetation management laws could help
Today (or around) BYD produced its 1millionth EV.(vs Tesla around 3M)


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2021)

qldfrog said:


> 126kg of CO2 or to put things in perspective what a tree would have absorbed to create a 70kg log of dry wood.Now remember last year bushfires ....A few controlled burns and more reasonable vegetation management laws could help
> Today (or around) BYD produced its 1millionth EV.(vs Tesla around 3M)



I don't disagree with you but there is no point being King Canute, the tide will still come in, same with EV's.  😂
It is just a new round of consumerism, to kick capitalism along for another century, the trick is to ride the wave. 
Are you going to buy coal shares, oil shares or lithium shares and nickel shares? Not saying there isn't any money to be made on coal or oil, but ATM the riders on the wave, may well be on renewables just because of the current narrative.


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2021)

qldfrog said:


> 126kg of CO2 or to put things in perspective what a tree would have absorbed to create a 70kg log of dry wood



The issue is exactly that.

The tree absorbed that CO2 then released it again.

The oil refinery that made the petrol sure didn't suck CO2 out of the air to make it.


----------



## qldfrog (19 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The issue is exactly that.
> 
> The tree absorbed that CO2 then released it again.
> 
> The oil refinery that made the petrol sure didn't suck CO2 out of the air to make it.



all fossil fuels came from forests /marine life which got trapped and did not decay, burning fuel is just releasing it back from where it was coming from, million years ago when the earth was a giant fertile jungle


----------



## qldfrog (19 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The issue is exactly that.
> 
> The tree absorbed that CO2 then released it again.
> 
> The oil refinery that made the petrol sure didn't suck CO2 out of the air to make it.



interestingly it could and instead of fighting to death for lithium mines, humanity could just solar power giant H2 +atmospheric CO2 capture "refineries to produce synth fuel  without having to dump millions of cars/truck and try to fly some batteries powered planes.
your ICE could be CO2 neutral , but we can not reset/restart an economy if not forcing people to rebuild from scratch.
and imagine the billions of profit in the process


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 May 2021)

qldfrog said:


> all fossil fuels came from forests /marine life which got trapped and did not decay, burning fuel is just releasing it back from where it was coming from, million years ago when the earth was a giant fertile jungle



The trouble is the "million years" bit and that we're burning it several orders of magnitude more rapidly than it's being formed today. 

That would be a problem even without environmental considerations.


----------



## qldfrog (20 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The trouble is the "million years" bit and that we're burning it several orders of magnitude more rapidly than it's being formed today.
> 
> That would be a problem even without environmental considerations.



Why?
Seriously why would going back to a fraction of the co2 initially in the atmosphere when life was booming be a serious issue.
Not scared of meeting some mega faune or giant dragonfly?
When coal was created co2 in atmosphere was 100s times higher..from memory ..than now, we are talking maybe adding 4 or 5% to current level, far from  1000 of percent then
Even if we were trying our best, we will never burn all the accumulated carbon and we will one day or another reach peak oil and peak coal.
The earth has much more serious issues than co2 concentration but these real issues are not as easy to face and shame/ blame.
And sadly the real issues are not solved by EV and more lithium rare earth mines.but EVs are cool and have a place in towns for smogs, bin trucks for efficiency noise, scooters for noise etc.
Replacing airplane fuel or long haul trucks diesel is a fallacy.but it will happen.i understand that


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 May 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Why?



Having to fight wars to get hold of the stuff is one problem for a start.

That the real, inflation adjusted, cost of oil is back up to what were historically considered outright crisis levels is another. $65 per barrel - adjusted for inflation that's slightly higher than during the 1970's energy crisis years.

Third reason is that cars discharge pollutants directly into highly populated areas and do so almost literally at ground level. In contrast, most cities don't have a power station right in the CBD these days and even if they did, they'd be discharging the fumes from a reasonably tall stack. Even a diesel generator installed for emergency use will have the discharge a few metres above ground level.


----------



## qldfrog (20 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Having to fight wars to get hold of the stuff is one problem for a start.
> 
> That the real, inflation adjusted, cost of oil is back up to what were historically considered outright crisis levels is another. $65 per barrel - adjusted for inflation that's slightly higher than during the 1970's energy crisis years.
> 
> Third reason is that cars discharge pollutants directly into highly populated areas and do so almost literally at ground level. In contrast, most cities don't have a power station right in the CBD these days and even if they did, they'd be discharging the fumes from a reasonably tall stack. Even a diesel generator installed for emergency use will have the discharge a few metres above ground level.



A long one:
100% agree on 3 points 
so let's keep the current technology, use syn gas solar powered for most useage and reserve EVs for specific areas like city driving against smog as we both mentioned.lets not creat new rare minerals wars
But you do not do that with laws or capex pression on fossil fuel.
The west is preparing itself in my opinion for a self inflicted crisis of biblical proportion with oil in very short supply here with all supplies annexed by China, and if they wake up India.
 The few people able to afford EV might not exactly be laughting in a western world with collapsing food supplies..no fertiliser,no transportation,no heating  
Our wealth and i include well being is oil based
I see EVs as the mandatory paper..or, irony, steel drinking straws or banned plastic bags in Alice Springs supposed to save the ocean.
Nice, recyclable, sustainable..maybe..but overall maybe even more polluting and in any case not solving any issue as seen on the vegan green sea documentary.
https://www.google.com/search?gs_ss...l2j0.9014j0j7&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
I see EV push as greenwashing, pleasing crowd of pimple teenagers,not solving any real problem, worse hiding them but filling many pockets and increasing powers of the ruling class 
I like the technology as an engineer but EVs will not save the world or the west.they will bankrupt us
As plane shaming develops in Europe, China is preparing to land on Mars.
When even dreams are restricted,where is hope..one day, i will own a Tesla?
Anyway, we can not seoarate EVs from the narrative is my point.
But sure,they have a great future as they will be mandatory.h2 is probably more feasible but as syn gas,not power cells to allow smoother transition.
We will see all this develop under our eyes in the next decades


----------



## rederob (20 May 2021)

My response is in *blue *to several of @qldfrog's points
let's keep the current technology, use syn gas solar powered for most useage and reserve EVs for specific areas like city driving against smog as we both mentioned.lets not creat new rare minerals wars   *First, syngas retains the atmospheric CO2 content so solves nothing in relation to climate change. Next, there are no mineral wars.*
The west is preparing itself in my opinion for a self inflicted crisis of biblical proportion with oil in very short supply here with all supplies annexed by China, and if they wake up India.  *Oil remains abundant, and so does gas, just getting more expensive to extract and profit from - so was a false claim.  Also, neither China nor India have annexed any supplies - another false claim.*
The few people able to afford EV might not exactly be laughting in a western world with collapsing food supplies..no fertiliser,no transportation,no heating   *Given EVs can be anything from 2 wheels upward and very cheap at base levels, @qldfrog claims are nonsense.*
 I like the technology as an engineer but EVs will not save the world or the west.they will bankrupt us   *EVs don't require the fossil fuel industry and, as has been shown via solar PV take up, can now thrive without incentives - so a baseless claim*
But sure,they have a great future as they will be mandatory.h2 is probably more feasible but as syn gas,not power cells to allow smoother transition.* Not a single country has ever contemplated EVs being mandatory, so another nonsense claim.    PWC provides a clear explanation of hydrogen's growth potential - hydrogen gets cheaper into the future and fossil fuels do not.*


----------



## basilio (23 May 2021)

Thought this was  clever and cool from an educational perspective. I think when they finish this project they will remember something they actually learnt at school that was worth learning.









						The teenage 'hardcore car nuts' on a mission to turn a Range Rover into an electric vehicle
					

Twenty-five girls from four Bendigo secondary schools are taking part in a year-long project aimed at inspiring young women to pursue careers in STEM.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Not a single country has ever contemplated EVs being mandatory, so another nonsense claim



They haven't made EV's mandatory but a ban on petrol or diesel vehicles being sold is effectively much the same in practice, it leaves EV's or hydrogen as the only real options going forward.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 May 2021)

qldfrog said:


> The west is preparing itself in my opinion for a self inflicted crisis of biblical proportion with oil in very short supply here with all supplies annexed by China, and if they wake up India.



The way I see it, people can argue all they like about how much oil's in the ground but what matters isn't oil in the ground but fuel in the tank of whatever consumes it. If there's no petrol in my car's tank then it's going nowhere, how much oil's in the ground is of little relevance to that.

Australia's oil supply has actually been disrupted on three previous occasions.

The first during WW2 caused the country considerable pain at the time.

The other two during the 1970's were a problem for industry and some rather drastic substitutions were done (with government assuring them that a very blind eye would be turned as to the consequences environmentally) but apart from that we scraped through due to being largely self-sufficient with rising production from Bass Strait which is all but gone these days. Had it not been for that, we'd have been in plenty of pain.

There was almost a fourth time. Not officially but specific refined products were getting pretty scarce circa 2008. That's to end users in Australia, the general public had supply of petrol etc but there were industrial situations where suppliers were refusing to take bulk orders with firm delivery dates due to lack of product in storage. That wasn't petrol or diesel though.

History shows that oil above ground in the West isn't particularly abundant I agree.


----------



## over9k (24 May 2021)

Yes but you're forgetting one big change there smurf: Shale oil.


----------



## rederob (24 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> They haven't made EV's mandatory but a ban on petrol or diesel vehicles being sold is effectively much the same in practice, it leaves EV's or hydrogen as the only real options going forward.



If you have wind and solar power, and no oil or gas, it makes strategic sense to move to an energy platform that is not susceptible to external disruption.
That's aside from the health and environmental benefits achieved from an *orderly transition* to renewables.
Aside from that, EV's are likely to be produced more cheaply than ICE vehicles within a decade, aside from their running costs being less and their batteries being both repurposable and recyclable . 
And it's aside from the fact that oil and gas are not long term solutions as they are finite resources.
So setting *a target date for transition* makes perfect sense from multiple perspectives.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 May 2021)

over9k said:


> Yes but you're forgetting one big change there smurf: Shale oil.



Not forgetting, I'm just far less bullish on its production outlook than most.   

My reasoning is really quite simple.

Prices are high by historic standards meanwhile the cost of capital is ludicrously cheap. That ought to produce a drilling boom but in practice there isn't one as this count of the US rig count shows:



Meanwhile production hasn't bounced back, at all, from the 2020 cuts:



And the US is going back to being a net importer of petroleum:









						U.S. will import 62% more crude by 2022 due to domestic production declines, says EIA
					

The U.S. Energy Information Administration expects that the United States will import more crude oil to fill the widening gap between refinery inputs of crude oil and domestic crude oil production in 2021 and 2022.




					www.worldoil.com
				





> EIA expects the United States to return to being a net petroleum importer on an annual basis in both 2021 and 2022.




A marked drop in drilling, which was underway before the pandemic, followed by what looks to have been a permanent drop in production given that price has rebounded and the US isn't governed by OPEC quotas.

My comments are US-centric since shale and the US are pretty much joined at the hip, nowhere else has anywhere even remotely near the same scale of oil production from that source. Don't confuse oil shale, a hard rock, with shale oil, a liquid, there.

I'll hold my judgement but I'm not convinced yet that there's any realistic prospect of shale or other oil production in the "West" actually increasing to the extent it would end reliance on the OPEC nations plus Russia etc.

Note that I'm not saying that with certainty, I'm acknowledging it might be possible, but I'm certainly not at all convinced.


----------



## over9k (25 May 2021)

Are you aware of the geopolitical angle reference the cessation of bretton-woods  etc?


----------



## qldfrog (25 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not forgetting, I'm just far less bullish on its production outlook than most.
> 
> My reasoning is really quite simple.
> 
> ...



how could we see increase when any finance deal would be publicly shamed and have kids glued on the financial market exchange doors.China is buying the oil production and stockpiling, we close:
usually forever as you rarely can restart a well.


----------



## sptrawler (25 May 2021)

rederob said:


> If you have wind and solar power, and no oil or gas, it makes strategic sense to move to an energy platform that is not susceptible to external disruption.
> That's aside from the health and environmental benefits achieved from an *orderly transition* to renewables.
> Aside from that, EV's are likely to be produced more cheaply than ICE vehicles within a decade, aside from their running costs being less and their batteries being both repurposable and recyclable .
> And it's aside from the fact that oil and gas are not long term solutions as they are finite resources.
> So setting *a target date for transition* makes perfect sense from multiple perspectives.



I agree with your sentiment 100%, the only problem is, it is built on a lot of assumptions that are yet to materialise.

As oil and gas are finite source, so are battery materials and as yet the recovery processes of their base materials in in its infancy.
Setting a target date is just a way of appeasing some, what if there are reasons that the targets can't be met? Just move the target as usual.
I think the general public get sick of being taken for bunnies by politicians making promises, that are outside their control.
As has been shown in recent history, all targets do, is give the media something to fill their content quotas with.
As happened with the vaccine roll out, the politicians promise it will be complete by a certain time, what happens? First not enough vaccine, now there is enough vaccine, not enough people want it. 😂


----------



## rederob (25 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with your sentiment 100%, the only problem is, it is built on a lot of assumptions that are yet to materialise.
> As oil and gas are finite source, so are battery materials and as yet the recovery processes of their base materials in in its infancy.



Actually all the data is available to show that the trends simply need to be sustained over the coming years, so it's only a matter of *when*, rather than if.


I don't understand your point about battery materials being *finite *as all mined metals are recyclable.  BEVs are a bit like wind farms and solar panels in terms of recycling demand.  Until there is an economic imperative to recycle them, or government regulation, then they will be like like every computer you have ever owned and tossed out.


----------



## sptrawler (25 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Actually all the data is available to show that the trends simply need to be sustained over the coming years, so it's only a matter of *when*, rather than if.
> View attachment 124846
> 
> I don't understand your point about battery materials being *finite *as all mined metals are recyclable.  BEVs are a bit like wind farms and solar panels in terms of recycling demand.  Until there is an economic imperative to recycle them, or government regulation, then they will be like like every computer you have ever owned and tossed out.



What is the old saying about don't use past performance as a future guide, trends are an historic representation, I could put up a graph of the trend toward nuclear power 50-60 years ago and make the assumption we would be full nuclear by now.
With materials that have gone through a chemical reaction, to extract some of their properties, some of those original properties are lost therefore the recovery rate is yet to be quantified on a major scale.
There will be some substance recovered, how useful that is in relation to the recovery cost, is yet to be tested.
As I said. I'm all for the concepts, but am realistic enough to know assumptions are usually the root cause of major stuff ups.

As you say most mined metals are recyclable, but one ton of iron ore when put through a blast furnace, doesn't make one ton of steel and once the steel is made it would be extremely difficult to get the one ton of iron ore back.


----------



## rederob (25 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What is the old saying about don't use past performance as a future guide, trends are an historic representation, I could put up a graph of the trend toward nuclear power 50-60 years ago and make the assumption we would be full nuclear by now.
> With materials that have gone through a chemical reaction, to extract some of their properties, some of those original properties are lost therefore the recovery rate is yet to be quantified on a major scale.
> There will be some substance recovered, how useful that is in relation to the recovery cost, is yet to be tested.
> As I said. I'm all for the concepts, but am realistic enough to know assumptions are usually the root cause of major stuff ups.
> ...



When you examine the issue carefully it is about how costs decrease with innovation and scale.  BEVs are in their infancy, and the trend of reduced prices into the coming decade is likely to reflect those of other "green" initiatives.  It's hard to see the hundreds of billions of dollars being poured into BEV production leading to more expensive cars!
With regard to recycling, there is presently no commercial or regulatory imperative, so while it's cheaper to pull minerals from the ground, that's likely to continue. 
Oh, and the iron content of 62% iron ore, for example will never be more than 620kg.


----------



## sptrawler (25 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Oh, and the iron content of 62% iron ore, for example will never be more than 620kg.



And when it has lime, sinter, manganese, sulfur, silicon and heat added to it, as I said it is difficult to return it to its base components, through an extraction process. That is not even taking into account, the adding of alloying elements when the pig iron is turned into steel.


----------



## qldfrog (26 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> And when it has lime, sinter, manganese, sulfur, silicon and heat added to it, as I said it is difficult to return it to its base components, through an extraction process. That is not even taking into account, the adding of alloying elements when the pig iron is turned into steel.



recycling usually means lowering of quality (except for gold and a lesser degree glass), these full cycle industry are pipe dreams or only return a fraction of the original balance; do not take me wrong , it is good, but there is a limit, and even more while humanity is growing and demand even more resources..unless you decide to let population grow rampant and reduce living standard: no more meat or fish, tiny homes(flats actually), no individual car etc etc etc, the reverse chinese model aka the Reset.The great EV move is sadly part of that scheme more than a technical solution.Due to resource constraint, it is more swap your ICE car with an EV Uber or bus than replace your holden by a Tesla.Which can make sense with urban living in europe etc, but forget any rural/regional living.


----------



## rederob (26 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> And when it has lime, sinter, manganese, sulfur, silicon and heat added to it, as I said it is difficult to return it to its base components, through an extraction process. That is not even taking into account, the adding of alloying elements when the pig iron is turned into steel.



Given we were originally talking about *recycling*, I have no idea what the tangent of ore refining has to do with this topic.
If you toss a tonne of scrap metal steel into a blast furnace, that's pretty well what you get back.
Redland Materials is recovering in excess of 90% of the key materials in rechargable batteries and selling most to Panasonic for their battery production.
*Answering *your other points:

_Setting a target date is just a way of appeasing some_ - *No, it's actually a means to achieving an internationally agreed CO2 level*
_what if there are reasons that the targets can't be met?_ - *There are no known reasons unless governments renege on their Paris Agreement commitment*
Ju_st move the target as usual. _- *Or do what Morrison does and pretend the target will be met by dodgy accounting and faith*
_I think the general public get sick of being taken for bunnies by politicians making promises_ - * Or in our case a do nothing government that brings coal into Parliament because it cannot plan*
_As has been shown in recent history, all targets do, is give the media something to fill their content quotas with _- *Ah, your theme of "blaming the media" comes to the fore.  The best journalism holds governments to account, and so should we.*
I did like your vaccine analogy.  It confirmed at every level Morrison's incompetence when it comes to planning our nation's future.


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2021)

rederob said:


> Given we were originally talking about *recycling*, I have no idea what the tangent of ore refining has to do with this topic.
> If you toss a tonne of scrap metal steel into a blast furnace, that's pretty well what you get back.
> Redland Materials is recovering in excess of 90% of the key materials in rechargable batteries and selling most to Panasonic for their battery production.
> *Answering *your other points:
> ...



*Like Bob Hawke and no child shall be living in poverty by 1990, great target, great intent. Absolute nonesense, as is your statement.
You say there is no known reason, unless governments renege, maybe get on the phone to your mates.








						China's new coal power plant capacity in 2020 more than three times rest of world's: study
					

China put 38.4 gigawatts (GW) of new coal-fired power capacity into operation in 2020, according to new international research, more than three times the amount built elsewhere around the world and potentially undermining its short-term climate goals.




					www.reuters.com
				




By the way, that is nearly the whole load of our East Coast grid, so they are putting in, in one year, what we are trying to take out. Ironic hey.*




rederob said:


> Ju_st move the target as usual. _- *Or do what Morrison does and pretend the target will be met by dodgy accounting and faith*



*The W.A Labor government has stated there will be 100GW of hydrogen production by 2030, in W.A alone and by 2040  200GW, so what Morrison is saying is absolutely correct. That is unless the W.A Labor Gov is wrong? But you run with the Morrison hate campaign, that will never change.*



rederob said:


> _I think the general public get sick of being taken for bunnies by politicians making promises_ - * Or in our case a do nothing government that brings coal into Parliament because it cannot plan*



*Just more nonsense Morrison hate vitriol. Maybe you could bring us up to speed on labor's plan to achieve their target?*


rederob said:


> _As has been shown in recent history, all targets do, is give the media something to fill their content quotas with _- *Ah, your theme of "blaming the media" comes to the fore.  The best journalism holds governments to account, and so should we.*



*The best journalism has long past, maybe you haven't been noticing how many times they are being successfully sued recently.*


rederob said:


> I did like your vaccine analogy.  It confirmed at every level Morrison's incompetence when it comes to planning our nation's future.



*I'm pleased you liked something, most unusual for you. 😂 *


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2021)

The battery swap out model, is being started in the U.S, no doubt there will be a place for both plug in, swap out and a combination of both styles in the end.


----------



## rederob (26 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> *Like Bob Hawke and no child shall be living in poverty by 1990, great target, great intent. Absolute nonesense, as is your statement.
> 
> 
> The W.A Labor government has stated there will be 100GW of hydrogen production by 2030, in W.A alone and by 2040 200GW, so what Morrison issaying is absolutely correct. That is unless the W.A Labor Gov is wrong? But you run with the Morrison hate campaign, that will never change.
> ...



When I studied logic the idea of correct reasoning was important when examining anything.
Statements made without a sound basis are fundamentally flawed.
You continue to make points which are not sound.
The basis for the BEV trend has been in place for many years and is attracting significantly greater support at every conceivable level.  To set *a transitional timetable on known events is pragmatic*, and very different from a politician's *hope,* which is all you have latched on to.
If you want to present a credible alternative you need to show which elements of the trend cannot continue and why.

With regard to Morrison, how about you lay out his plans, as the western world regards Australia as policy bankrupt, and so does Australian industry on this matter.


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2021)

rederob said:


> When I studied logic the idea of correct reasoning was important when examining anything.
> Statements made without a sound basis are fundamentally flawed.
> You continue to make points which are not sound.
> The basis for the BEV trend has been in place for many years and is attracting significantly greater support at every conceivable level.  To set *a transitional timetable on known events is pragmatic*, and very different from a politician's *hope,* which is all you have latched on to.
> If you want to present a credible alternative you need to show which elements of the trend cannot continue and why.



Well you have answered your own question, pragmatic or hope, as has been proven, they are one and the same and often politically motivated. As per my Bob Hawke example.



rederob said:


> With regard to Morrison, how about you lay out his plans, as the western world regards Australia as policy bankrupt, and so does Australian industry on this matter.



How about you answer my question, what is labors plan, they are actually committing to the target therefore that is more pertinent. Maybe they are being pragmatic with a touch of hope. 😂
With regard BEV's, the industry and some people are pushing for incentives, yet at the same time the government is being criticised for adding more debt.
Hard to please some, especially the media, who push both the need for incentives and the blow out of government debt barrow.
Considering you studied logics, it would be nice, if you started applying some to your debate.


----------



## rederob (26 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well you have answered your own question, pragmatic or hope, as has been proven, they are one and the same and often politically motivated.
> 
> How about you answer my question, what is labors plan, they are actually committing to the target therefore that is more pertinent. Maybe they are being pragmatic with a touch of hope. 😂



A workforce, infrastructure and materials presently making something happen is totally different to *a hope that it will happen, *but I understand you are not able to discern the difference based on your comments here.

With regard to real policies on EVs  - given the Liberals have none - I suggest you read what other parties have at their respective *websites*, such as the Greens, seeing you have not taken the time to learn for yourself.  The Nationals have a zero net emissions policy (ie they have made none) on reneawables, EVS and climate change, so you can also give them a miss.


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2021)

rederob said:


> A workforce, infrastructure and materials presently making something happen is totally different to *a hope that it will happen, *but I understand you are not able to discern the difference based on your comments here.
> 
> With regard to real policies on EVs  - given the Liberals have none - I suggest you read what other parties have at their respective *websites*, such as the Greens, seeing you have not taken the time to learn for yourself.  The Nationals have a zero net emissions policy (ie they have made none) on reneawables, EVS and climate change, so you can also give them a miss.



I think you studied equivocation, not logics. 😂  😂


----------



## basilio (26 May 2021)

SA Liberal government response to encouraging uptake of BEV. 
And the business response to the proposal... 
Shows just how important and effective clear Government polices on fast tracking BEV is.

Hundreds of businesses want to host EV charging stations in regional SA​More than 600 property owners and businesses across regional and remote South Australia have put up their hands to host electric vehicle charging stations, in response to a state government-led push to establish a statewide EV fast charging network.

As part of a $13.4 million commitment to support the shift to zero emissions transport, the SA Liberal government has called for registrations of interest to become EV fast charger site hosts, including in key tourist areas like the Adelaide Hills, Eyre Peninsula and Limestone Coast.

The huge response to the scheme has underscored the growing public enthusiasm for electric vehicles in a state that has led the world on the shift to renewable energy.








						Hundreds of businesses want to host EV charging stations in regional SA
					

More than 600 property owners and businesses across regional and remote South Australia say they want to host electric vehicle charging stations.




					thedriven.io


----------



## rederob (26 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think you studied equivocation, not logics. 😂  😂



Be careful your doctor does not prescribe lithium as a treatment for your discharges here.  
You need to plug in to dictionary.com and get up to speed with the thread's title.
So far it's been more assault and less battery.


----------



## basilio (26 May 2021)

The "mining"  and recycling of once used minerals, in particular Li Ion batteries, is moving swiftly. Pilot plants have proven successful. Full size commercial plants are 1-3 years away.  Australian companies are amongst those at the forefront of this technology.

*DECARBONISING CRITICAL RAW MATERIALS SUPPLY CHAINS IN THE EU*

    26/05/2021 
8:44 am

               Corporate Presentation - 121 EMEA Conference 

  14976KB


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2021)

basilio said:


> SA Liberal government response to encouraging uptake of BEV.
> And the business response to the proposal...
> Shows just how important and effective clear Government polices on fast tracking BEV is.
> 
> ...



Yes Bas the same as W.A is doing, which makes perfect sense, they control the electrical assets they need to control the roll out.
There are some regional areas and Towns that still run small diesel gen sets, a charging station may well require a distribution/generation upgrade. 
That's applying logics and local knowledge, to a logistical issue. It isn't something that can be worked out in the cafes and wine bars of Sydney 😂



			https://www.wa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-11/State_Electric_Vehicle_Strategy_for_Western_Australia_0.pdf


----------



## basilio (26 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's applying logics and local knowledge, to a logistical issue. It isn't something that can be worked out in the cafes and wine bars of Sydney




It's a Government setting out out policy guidelines which enable businesses to make sensible economic decisions.


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2021)

basilio said:


> It's a Government setting out out policy guidelines which enable businesses to make sensible economic decisions.



Absolutely and when they formulate a plan, they will go to the Feds for funding assistance.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 May 2021)

Ban petrol cars ?









						Is this Australia's next light bulb moment?
					

Australians usually embrace the future. At times we've been ahead of it. Could no new sales of internal combustion cars by 2035 be our next challenge, asks Peter Martin.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (26 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Ban petrol cars ?



Better idea than subsidising electric vehicles IMO.
The Government money would be better spent, subsidising the retraining of the auto mechanics and auto electricians, so that the manufacturers haven't got a monopoly on working on the BEV's and charging stupid prices, due to no competition.
Also has the added benefit of upskilling TAFE courses, in preperation for the demise of the ICE trade as we know it.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Ban petrol cars ?



So long as it's only new sales then no problem.

I'd be extremely strongly opposed to any banning of the use of existing vehicles however. That sort of thinking is where governments all too often lose the plot.

A ban on new petrol cars from 2030 or 2035 seems reasonable but someone should still be able to drive their existing petrol car so long as anyone's selling petrol to run it with. Socially as well as politically, that's the sensible approach.


----------



## Value Collector (27 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Ban petrol cars ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The light bulb is actually a good example, and very relevant to the debate on EV’s.

The modern LED and the  Fluorescent tube bulbs were much cheaper to run than their incandescent competitors, but they required a much larger up front cost to buy them.

incandescent bulbs cost only cost $1 but they burned about 4 times the electricity and only lasted 1000 hours vs  $10 for LEDs and Fluorescents that lasted 10,000 to 30,000 hours, and could save you about $20 in electricity over their life.

The governments ban of incandescent bulbs was the right move, it stop consumers making the wrong choice and buying the cheap bulb and forced them to buy the better investment, which also lead to the new bulbs becoming cheaper as economies of scale kicked in.

EV’s are exactly the same, they are more expensive upfront, but are much cheaper in fuel and far less maintenance, it may just be the right move.


----------



## Value Collector (27 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> So long as it's only new sales then no problem.
> 
> I'd be extremely strongly opposed to any banning of the use of existing vehicles however. That sort of thinking is where governments all too often lose the plot.
> 
> A ban on new petrol cars from 2030 or 2035 seems reasonable but someone should still be able to drive their existing petrol car so long as anyone's selling petrol to run it with. Socially as well as politically, that's the sensible approach.



I don’t think anyone is suggesting banning the exisiting cars, just like no one suggested banning the existing light bulbs, they will just ban new sales.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 May 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t think anyone is suggesting banning the exisiting cars, just like no one suggested banning the existing light bulbs, they will just ban new sales.



Agreed it's not proposed in Australia at the present time.

Certainly the idea has emerged overseas however and it's the sort of thing that someone may well grab hold of if given the chance. 

I'm in favour of EV's but I don't trust governments when it comes to this sort of thing. If they can find a way to tax or regulate then there's a portion of politicians who'll jump at the chance no matter what the consequences.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed it's not proposed in Australia at the present time.
> 
> Certainly the idea has emerged overseas however and it's the sort of thing that someone may well grab hold of if given the chance.
> 
> *I'm in favour of EV's but I don't trust governments when it comes to this sort of thing. If they can find a way to tax or regulate then there's a portion of politicians who'll jump at the chance no matter what the consequences.  *




I'm afraid that we can't expect ev's to be tax free forever, regardless of the benefits to the environment through reduced emmissions.

It's simply a matter of replacing fuel tax revenue which goes to a lot of other services besides roads.

It depends on how you replace the revenue. It's easier for some governments to tax ev's than putting a tax on resource exports for example.

Motorists have less clout than big companies.


----------



## Value Collector (27 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm afraid that we can't expect ev's to be tax free forever, regardless of the benefits to the environment through reduced emmissions.
> 
> It's simply a matter of replacing fuel tax revenue which goes to a lot of other services besides roads.
> 
> ...



Yep, and if smoking continues to drop out of favour we will need to bring in a fresh air tax on all the non smokers.

I gave up alcohol last year, so I am expecting a sobriety tax to kick in shortly hahaha.

it’s been talked about here before, that EV owners still pay council rates,  vehicle registration, Toll fees, and GST on electricity purchases,  it to mention they help reduce health care expenses related to air pollution.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 May 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, and if smoking continues to drop out of favour we will need to bring in a fresh air tax on all the non smokers.
> 
> I gave up alcohol last year, so I am expecting a sobriety tax to kick in shortly hahaha.
> 
> it’s been talked about here before, that EV owners still pay council rates,  vehicle registration, Toll fees, and GST on electricity purchases,  it to mention they help reduce health care expenses related to air pollution.




Your irony is not lost on me   but sure, if revenue from any source like smokers is reducing then it has to be made up somehow if we expect services to continue.

Maybe over time, improvement in air quality from ev's will lead to a reduction in health costs, but as they say it won't happen overnight and there are other services that need to be maintained.

Like others, I certainly don't trust governments when it comes to taxes. I remember about 30 years ago in NSW a "temporary surcharge was introduced on drivers licences to cover losses on third party insurance. This was simply "absorbed" into the drivers license fee and therefore became permanent.


----------



## Value Collector (27 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Your irony is not lost on me   but sure, if revenue from any source like smokers is reducing then it has to be made up somehow if we expect services to continue.
> 
> Maybe over time, improvement in air quality from ev's will lead to a reduction in health costs, but as they say it won't happen overnight and there are other services that need to be maintained.
> 
> Like others, I certainly don't trust governments when it comes to taxes. I remember about 30 years ago in NSW a "temporary surcharge was introduced on drivers licences to cover losses on third party insurance. This was simply "absorbed" into the drivers license fee and therefore became permanent.




The replacement Tax doesn’t have to be an exact mirror of the old tax though, eg a reduction in Alcohol tax doesn’t have to be matched with a soft drink of tea tax, we could just crack down on global companies that are avoiding Australian tax, or increase marginal rates, or increase GST who knows?

I think EV’s affect on health care costs will be proportionate to the number of EV’s on the road.

So once there is enough EV’s on the road that the revenue stream of fuel tax is noticeable, the improving quality of the Air should should be noticeable, offsetting costs almost perfectly.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 May 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The replacement Tax doesn’t have to be an exact mirror of the old tax though, eg a reduction in Alcohol tax doesn’t have to be matched with a soft drink of tea tax, we could just crack down on global companies that are avoiding Australian tax, or increase marginal rates, or increase GST who knows?
> 
> I think EV’s affect on health care costs will be proportionate to the number of EV’s on the road.
> 
> *So once there is enough EV’s on the road that the revenue stream of fuel tax is noticeable, the improving quality of the Air should should be noticeable, offsetting costs almost perfectly.*




Well, the problem is that you have to quantify what the improvement in air quality means in dollar terms before you can come to a conclusion that ev's have been worthwhile in terms of reducing costs.

I'm not suggesting that money is the only means of determining "value" , how can you measure "quality of life" ? EV's will certainly be beneficial to quality of life, but as I said before fuel tax revenue also goes towards things like education, infrastructure, aged care etc so you have to account for any losses that those areas will suffer as a result of diminished revenue.

And you are right, we can look at other forms of revenue that aren't directly related to what we are trying to replace.


----------



## Value Collector (27 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, the problem is that you have to quantify what the improvement in air quality means in dollar terms before you can come to a conclusion that ev's have been worthwhile in terms of reducing costs.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that money is the only means of determining "value" , how can you measure "quality of life" ? EV's will certainly be beneficial to quality of life, but as I said before fuel tax revenue also goes towards things like education, infrastructure, aged care etc so you have to account for any losses that those areas will suffer as a result of diminished revenue.
> 
> And you are right, we can look at other forms of revenue that aren't directly related to what we are trying to replace.




yes I agree fuel tax goes to a lot of general other items besides roads, so why does it have to be a tax related to vehicles? Just bring in some other General tax, considering it’s going to be used for general purposes.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 May 2021)

Value Collector said:


> yes I agree fuel tax goes to a lot of general other items besides roads, so why does it have to be a tax related to vehicles? Just bring in some other General tax, considering it’s going to be used for general purposes.




It doesn't have to be a tax related to vehicles, it's entirely political.

The original justification for fuel excise was that it was to pay for roads, which was a distortion. Some of it paid for roads, the rest went into other areas.

Pollies have a hard time justifying tax increases, just look at the GST. 

The pollies will play off the ev drivers against the ICE drivers, saying they are priviliged somehow by not paying fuel excise therefore they should pay more.

It's just a political game.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm afraid that we can't expect ev's to be tax free forever, regardless of the benefits to the environment through reduced emmissions.



Not just tax but also things like the possibility that some politician, one who works for the actual top end of town, comes up with an idea like banning the use of ICE cars in certain locations (eg the CBD) or at certain times or whatever.

An idea that'll be presented as saving the planet but in reality it's just about maintaining the class distinction. Get those poor people off the roads and out of the way of the rich is what it comes down to in practice. Such ideas are already around in a few places overseas.

As with all this energy and environmental stuff, the big problem is absolutism. The tendency of the argument for EV's to descend into one that assumes 100% of vehicles must be electric in the very near future. Or arguments about power supply which insist that it's either 100% coal or it's 100% renewables with nothing in between. Such binary logic is unhelpful in the real world where what works is a gradual transition that'll see ICE and EV's both on the roads for many years to come with the former gradually decreasing and the latter increasing.


----------



## over9k (28 May 2021)

Hybrid manufacturers gamed that quite some time ago - an electric only mode that lasts only a few minutes/an hour. So you just flick it into electric only mode, cruise through the town, then fire the ICE engine up again once you're outside of the electric only zone.


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2021)

over9k said:


> Hybrid manufacturers gamed that quite some time ago - an electric only mode that lasts only a few minutes/an hour. So you just flick it into electric only mode, cruise through the town, then fire the ICE engine up again once you're outside of the electric only zone.



That is true, the wait time on the Toyota RAV4 hybrid got out to 9 months, apparently they were very popular.
Ive still got a V6 diesel, so cant give an opinion on EV's at this time.


----------



## over9k (28 May 2021)

Hah. I drive a turbo diesel that doesn't even have a cat in the exhaust. I roll coal every time I get in it. 

(I use it for towing & transport though so do actually have some kind of reason)


----------



## qldfrog (28 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not just tax but also things like the possibility that some politician, one who works for the actual top end of town, comes up with an idea like banning the use of ICE cars in certain locations (eg the CBD) or at certain times or whatever.
> 
> An idea that'll be presented as saving the planet but in reality it's just about maintaining the class distinction. Get those poor people off the roads and out of the way of the rich is what it comes down to in practice. Such ideas are already around in a few places overseas.
> 
> As with all this energy and environmental stuff, the big problem is absolutism. The tendency of the argument for EV's to descend into one that assumes 100% of vehicles must be electric in the very near future. Or arguments about power supply which insist that it's either 100% coal or it's 100% renewables with nothing in between. Such binary logic is unhelpful in the real world where what works is a gradual transition that'll see ICE and EV's both on the roads for many years to come with the former gradually decreasing and the latter increasing.



You are a breath of fresh air Mr Smurf
Smurf for PM😁


----------



## basilio (29 May 2021)

How to rev up petrol heads over electric cars.









						‘It’s like a rocket ship’: videos show coalminers behind the wheel of an electric car
					

An Australian engineer-turned climate activist hosts Coal Miners Driving Teslas, a YouTube and Twitter channel heavily spiced with unbridled swearing




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## over9k (29 May 2021)

They'll never replace ICE cars for motorsport. Never. Electric cars are about as exciting as watching paint dry.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 May 2021)

over9k said:


> They'll never replace ICE cars for motorsport. Never. Electric cars are about as exciting as watching paint dry.



Technology solves all problems.









						Tesla electric cars now available with V8 exhaust sound
					

A UK firm has invented a bolt-on exhaust system that make electric cars sound like a V8, V10 or V12. Did you crave the performance of a Tesla electric car




					www.caradvice.com.au


----------



## over9k (29 May 2021)

Not the same. Not even close.


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 May 2021)

over9k said:


> They'll never replace ICE cars for motorsport. Never. Electric cars are about as exciting as watching paint dry.



Someone probably said the same about ICE cars.

Racing them will never catch on, horses are far more exciting.

A point often lost on the older generations is that to today's young people _all_ cars and indeed the entire concept of them is dead boring to most. They're an appliance that needs to be reliable, economical and safe much like a fridge.

So far as the mainstream is concerned, car culture is as dead as rock music. Something everyone knows exists but which is very much associated with those now in the older half of the population.


----------



## over9k (29 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Someone probably said the same about ICE cars.
> 
> Racing them will never catch on, horses are far more exciting.
> 
> ...



Formula E exists. Nobody watches it. Formula 1 has sucked ever since the V6's were introduced (and the V8 era wasn't great). Young men still like cars and always will.

Even now, people complain about V6 Formula 1 cars sounding like vacuum cleaners and I don't know a single F1 fan that doesn't want to go back to the V10 era and stay there. Older cars that were still driving cars like the R34 GT-R are going for more than the newer models now. Same with the wrx etc. Modern cars just suck.

There's a saying with cars - it's not how fast it goes, it's how it goes fast.

Here's a quick 1.6 million view 30 second clip of Lewis Hamilton to give you an idea of just how much even the drivers hate the modern F1 cars, and they're only becoming more of a snooze fest by the day:



And there's myriad other videos just like this one: 



There was more talk about the V10 on a glory lap that weekend than there was the race. 


Electric car racing will never be popular. Ever. Electric cars aren't _exciting _and they never will be.


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Technology solves all problems.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree, I'm a petrol head from way back, but even I get fed up with Harley's with straight thru's, any serious motor bike tourer ends up on a bike with a quiet exhaust. 😅


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> A point often lost on the older generations is that to today's young people _all_ cars and indeed the entire concept of them is dead boring to most. They're an appliance that needs to be reliable, economical and safe much like a fridge.
> 
> So far as the mainstream is concerned, car culture is as dead as rock music. Something everyone knows exists but which is very much associated with those now in the older half of the population.



Never a truer word said smurf.
As I've said before, 30 years ago i would go to the auctions, pick up a cheap Gemini, Lancer, Corolla etc, take it home pull out the motor hone the bore, new set of rings and big ends, new clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing.
Give it a rub down with a red scourer and respray it, then re sell it and make $1,000, nowadays there are better cars abandoned on the side of the freeway with the number plates removed.
Or stacked three deep on the back of a truck with a hiab squeezing them, to keep them on the back.
Young people today worry more about their phone running out of charge, than they worry about their cars.
The car culture is as smurf said, dying with the older half of the population.
There is a reason that a lot of really collectible cars are coming on the market, I think.


----------



## Value Collector (30 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Someone probably said the same about ICE cars.
> 
> Racing them will never catch on, horses are far more exciting.
> 
> ...



Look at how swiftly the decline of NAS Car racing is happening.


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Look at how swiftly the decline of NAS Car racing is happening.



I've never watched nas car, what is it?


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Someone probably said the same about ICE cars.
> 
> Racing them will never catch on, horses are far more exciting.
> 
> ...




Very true.

I used to suck up motor racing as a youth but I hardly watch it any more except for Bathurst.

When you could drive cars off the street and race them it had some relevance but now the technology is beyond the reach of the general public so it's irrelevant to most.

I would acknowledge the "racing improves the breed" argument and as long as racing technology filters down to the consumer eventually then it serves a purpose, but mainly its a sport to enable the super rich to show off and think that they have achieved something (like yacht racing).


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I've never watched nas car, what is it?




Nascar, US form of touring cars except they can only turn left.

Dead boring.


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2021)

Speedway?


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Speedway?




Good God, I'd forgotten about that !

Yes NASCAR is a bigger version of speedway without the fun of the dirt tracks.

An example.


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Very true.
> 
> I used to suck up motor racing as a youth but I hardly watch it any more except for Bathurst.
> 
> ...



OMG those were the days, as a kid in W.A you would get up at 5am to watch the start in the dark at Bathurst, it was an Aussie icon.
I remember when Peter Williamson, had the first in car T.V camera in his Toyota Celica and was flat out down conrod straight, he said here we go Peter Brock about to flash by me, I'll move to the left.
Those were the days when the media was more about entertainment, than social engineering, it is sad they have become politically focused rather than entertainment focused.


----------



## SirRumpole (30 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> OMG those were the days, as a kid in W.A you would get up at 5am to watch the start in the dark at Bathurst, it was an Aussie icon.
> I remember when Peter Williamson, had the first in car T.V camera in his Toyota Celica and was flat out down conrod straight, he said here we go Peter Brock about to flash by me, I'll move to the left.
> Those were the days when the media was more about entertainment, than social engineering, it is sad they have become politically focused rather than entertainment focused.




Everything is politically focused these days, which is why F1 and other classes will go electric eventually, the sport can't survive being tarred with the "environmental vandals" brush.


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Everything is politically focused these days, which is why F1 and other classes will go electric eventually, the sport can't survive being tarred with the "environmental vandals" brush.



Being a bike nut, I only follow motogp, but as you say everything is driven, the media is driven by advertising dollars.
The news media is driven by the audience who pay for their content.
The muppets are driven by the media that feeds their paranoia.
Sad really.


----------



## Smurf1976 (30 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The car culture is as smurf said, dying with the older half of the population.












						Why motorsport fans are abandoning the sport in droves
					

There’s no quick fix for the problem of fans deserting motorsport




					www.whichcar.com.au
				






> It seems too, that today’s motor sports spectators are often oldies and that many younger people are not in any hurry to secure their driving licences. It follows then that they are not drawn to motorsport




Motorsport is just another one of those things that was a seriously big deal in the past but which the current younger generation just isn't all that keen on.


----------



## qldfrog (30 May 2021)

Cars EV or ICE  have no place in tomorrow's engineered world.
Cars used to be freedom, they are just a source of gov revenues
Think rabbit hutches or poultry battery farm: more and more people in smaller and smaller places with lower and lower inputs. And outputs.
.https://www.newstatesman.com/cultur...s-our-society-already-pixar-s-dystopia-wall-e


----------



## Knobby22 (30 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Kia's new offering for BEV's
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice looking car to my eyes.


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Nice looking car to my eyes.



Yes, it has a bit of the old Citroen DS look about it.









						Citroën DS - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Value Collector (30 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I've never watched nas car, what is it?


----------



## Knobby22 (30 May 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Cars EV or ICE  have no place in tomorrow's engineered world.
> Cars used to be freedom, they are just a source of gov revenues
> Think rabbit hutches or poultry battery farm: more and more people in smaller and smaller places with lower and lower inputs. And outputs.
> .https://www.newstatesman.com/cultur...s-our-society-already-pixar-s-dystopia-wall-e
> View attachment 125174



Well let's face it, we aren't that great as drivers. 

Only a matter of time till it's all automated with people not allowed to drive.


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Well let's face it, we aren't that great as drivers.
> 
> Only a matter of time till it's all automated with people not allowed to drive.



Absolutely, the chip doesnt drink, doesnt text, does do drugs, doesnt get tired, doesnt have a blue with the missus and kids in the car.


----------



## qldfrog (30 May 2021)

Knobby22 said:


> Well let's face it, we aren't that great as drivers.
> 
> Only a matter of time till it's all automated with people not allowed to drive.



not allowed to think, not allowed to drive, to own a gun, a knife or do anything potentially dangerous.whole generations of our ancestors went to war to defend a notion of freedom.
remember the fall of the iron curtain...and now try to leave this very country..
EVs make it a little bit easier to be remotely controlled, more importantly, making EVs de facto mandatory will force only new models on the roads, fewer of these due to price and resources shortage, and so allow implementation of full control:blackbox, speed limiter, remote stopping, etc etc


----------



## qldfrog (30 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely, the chip doesnt drink, doesnt text, does do drugs, doesnt get tired, doesnt have a blue with the missus and kids in the car.



and the chip will report where you where, when, alone or not, and with face detection as in China, who with.An Orwell paradise


----------



## basilio (31 May 2021)

Priceless !  James May explaining in excruciating detail a ridiculous  design fault in  his Tesla S.

Be interesting to see how quickly (if at all) Tesla responds. Also interesting to see if he has  voided his warranty with unauthorised work.

Perhaps also a lesson on technology going way to far and over the cliff.


----------



## basilio (31 May 2021)

Came across this  You Tube channel which may be of interest to car enthusiasts restoring/rebuilding cars.

_This Channel is all about me and my passion for Italian and German cars namely Fiats and Audi's. I have owned a number of Audi's including 3 TT's, a facelift A7, (I loved that car) a B9 A4 line Avant to name but a few and I currently own an A1 sport, and I have just finished rebuilding a facelift  Audi S3. My other passion is Italian cars. My first car when I passed my test was an Alfasud 1.2Ti in green, and I went on to buy the 1.5 Cloverleaf soon after.

 I currently own a 2013 Abarth 500 which I adore. I am no millionaire, just a poor YouTuber who loves cars, so to get my cars I often by damaged cars from salvage yards and repair them on the channel to educate my audience on how easy it is to get the car of your dreams at a reduced cost and have fun on the way._



			https://www.youtube.com/c/CarsForPaul/playlists


----------



## SirRumpole (31 May 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely, the chip doesnt drink, doesnt text, does do drugs, doesnt get tired, doesnt have a blue with the missus and kids in the car.




It's not the chip itself that could be a problem, it's the software that drives it.

No one can assume that software is infallible as this article demonstrates.









						In Pictures: Houston, we have a bug - 9 famous software glitches in space
					

There’s never a good time to run into software bugs, but some times are worse than others - like during a mission to space. Spacecraft of all shapes and sizes rely heavily on software to complete their objectives. But those missions can be quickly ended by the simplest of human errors when...




					www.arnnet.com.au
				




Plus the fact that all software can be hacked, and we know what a disaster that can be.


----------



## qldfrog (31 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not the chip itself that could be a problem, it's the software that drives it.
> 
> No one can assume that software is infallible as this article demonstrates.
> 
> ...



annoying opposition leader losing brakes and rollover at 120 on the freeway, or ransom pay or your daughter will slam on a wall etc etc


----------



## qldfrog (31 May 2021)

qldfrog said:


> annoying opposition leader losing brakes and rollover at 120 on the freeway, or ransom pay or your daughter will slam on a wall etc etc



To show you this is not that crazy, all top evs have on the air upgrading software, so whIle you sleep the software gets updated, it is only a matter of time where one upgrade will be hacked and for example only the accelerator up connected so an acceleration only car, disable right turn, whatever...with millions EVs on the road, it is not if that will happen but when..and then the blackmail or remote murder will just become a driving risk


----------



## orr (31 May 2021)

Soft-ware may be able to be hacked.
The question is one of the math; If a system of 'AI' proves itself a factor of magnitude better than the 'ape' currently in control of a vehical and with a possiblility of better than that....
 In the US? the  numbers you'd bring down circa 40,000 road fatalities to  4000 or less per annum; run the add ons to that truamer, family, emergency, hospoitilisation, rehab and then quality of life +++.. How many 'hacked murder missiles' are going to be enabled to come near that distress???
Sorry to tell y'all, with fleet turnover  You ain't gunna decide... Insurance is; That's Capitalism.

And this isn't just an 'EV' thing... See George Hotz and Comma-AI...


----------



## Value Collector (31 May 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not the chip itself that could be a problem, it's the software that drives it.
> 
> No one can assume that software is infallible as this article demonstrates.
> 
> ...



I don’t think we should expect software or hardware to be infallible, because the humans that they will replace are also not infallible.

To be valuable self driving vehicles just have to get to the point where they fail less often than humans, they don’t have to be perfect, just less bad.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 June 2021)

basilio said:


> Perhaps also a lesson on technology going way to far and over the cliff.



I'll give you one guarantee about a conventional 12V battery in a car.

It will fail at some point during the life of the car.

Therefore it ought to be easily accessible and replaceable.


----------



## Value Collector (1 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'll give you one guarantee about a conventional 12V battery in a car.
> 
> It will fail at some point during the life of the car.
> 
> Therefore it ought to be easily accessible and replaceable.



Tesla is moving away from using lead acid 12V battery, and is instead going to be using a lithium ion version of the 12V battery, which ofcourse will have a much longer life span than traditional lead asset batteries.

I also believe that the problem mentioned in the video above will no longer be an issue.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 June 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla is moving away from using lead acid 12V battery, and is instead going to be using a lithium ion version of the 12V battery, which ofcourse will have a much longer life span than traditional lead asset batteries.



Good to hear they're fixing it but there's still an flaw if the car just sitting there doing nothing flattens the little 12V battery and can't be used, despite the far larger main battery being charged. Even if the battery doesn't need actual replacement, it's still going to need a jump start if it's flat.


----------



## Value Collector (1 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Good to hear they're fixing it but there's still an flaw if the car just sitting there doing nothing flattens the little 12V battery and can't be used, despite the far larger main battery being charged. Even if the battery doesn't need actual replacement, it's still going to need a jump start if it's flat.



Yeah I think they have fixed that problem a fair while ago, I think it was just a software update.


----------



## sptrawler (3 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Another interesting thing that is happening, there will be a huge reclassification of the auto electrician trade IMO.
> Motor mechanics will have to adapt and retrain as auto electricians, or face being at centerlink in 20years.
> @Smurf1976 , the other thing that may well happen, as happened with the instrument trade, the electrical trade may well swallow it up.
> The voltages the cars work on, could well make it in the realm of an unrestricted electrical license IMO.



Someone must be listening. 😂 








						Mechanics to be retrained for electric vehicles as diesel buses phased out by 2030
					

The government is rolling out a new series of short courses to address skills shortages in emerging speciality areas including the servicing of electric buses and cars.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## over9k (3 June 2021)

With massive subsidies from the Chinese government no doubt. 

EV's are THE product subsidy of choice for basically every government everywhere right now. I've been trying to find an indian manufacturer to buy in to but options seem pretty limited at the moment.


----------



## sptrawler (6 June 2021)

Interesting concept by Toyota, that will work well with EV's, rather than owning one you rent one similar to scooter hire that is prevalent in Europe.
It also does away with the need for individuals to provide  charging facilities, wear the cost of an aging battery pack etc, it could be a terrific answer for those who only use a car occasionally.
On the flip side, i woder if we will find Kinto cars up trees, in rivers, completely stripped, as we did with ride sharing bikes?
Toyota is hoping on everyone being nice and respectful, as most well intentioned ideas do,  time will tell.








						Toyota launches Kinto car sharing service in Melbourne, other states to follow
					

The car share space is about to become more crowded, with automotive giant Toyota launching its Kinto service in Australia.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Motorists who don’t want to own a car – or who prefer a choice of vehicle types throughout the year – will soon be able to rent a Toyota through its new car sharing service called Kinto, a rival to other outlets such as GoGet.
For now, Kinto is only available in Melbourne – in four locations – but Toyota says it plans to roll out the car sharing service nationally.
Due to the “once-in-a-century changes” occurring in motor vehicle technology Toyota says it is “recasting our entire way of thinking and doing business”.
Toyota says there are no membership fees, and drivers can take a vehicle for an hour, a day, or longer – with fuel, insurance, and maintenance all covered.
Kinto cars – ranging from sedans, hatchbacks, SUVs, utes and vans – are booked via a smartphone app.
Kinto cars are unlocked and locked via the smartphone app. Rates start from less than $10 an hour plus 30 cents per kilometre. Full-day rates begin at $63 (plus 27 cents per kilometre). Weekly rates are available from just $294 with a lower per kilometre rate of 18 cents.
Kinto cars are covered by 24/7 roadside assistance and comprehensive insurance, and customers have the option of reducing insurance excess for an extra charge.
“Kinto is the next best thing to owning your own car because it is simple and affordable to book and drive the latest Toyota vehicles, including our popular hybrid models,” Mr Hanley said in a media statement.


----------



## qldfrog (8 June 2021)

In my opinion,EV as battery powered using lithium,etc are not a realist solution.
Hydrogen cells or hydrogen ICE make more sense but face the technical issues of hydrogen being a Houdini.
I often ranted in the past
But real progress are being made:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/renewable-fuel-might-3-times-010000802.html
So ammonia to H to EV or H ICE...


----------



## qldfrog (8 June 2021)

About EV, Paris had setup a Vélib' styke of small electric cars in the past.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolib'
But when ideology overtake technology and common sense, the outcome is paid by the planet and the taxpayers








						a field becomes the graveyard of thousands of electric cars
					

In 2018, one of the first car-sharing initiatives stopped providing service: we talk about the French Autolib, and with him Bolloré Bluecar as the




					tekdeeps.com


----------



## qldfrog (8 June 2021)

And lastly, do you know that most low range hybrid cars due to the extra battery weight consume more than equivalent power efficient diesel cars?
Hybrids with limited range 20 to 40km or so are traveling a lot on their ice and so ultimately consume more per km than efficient ice. As they carry that extra weight..talking pure hybrid, not ev with backup engine


----------



## basilio (9 June 2021)

The move to electrify trucks for underground mines is moving quickly.  ICE vehicles just cost too much to run in maintenace as well as air venting requirements.









						Turning diesel into electric — the underground mining vehicles boosting Australian manufacturing
					

Five years after the demise of Australian vehicle manufacturing, a growing number of businesses are retrofitting diesel light vehicles into custom electric vehicles for use in underground mines.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> And lastly, do you know that most low range hybrid cars due to the extra battery weight consume more than equivalent power efficient diesel cars?
> Hybrids with limited range 20 to 40km or so are traveling a lot on their ice and so ultimately consume more per km than efficient ice. As they carry that extra weight..talking pure hybrid, not ev with backup engine



On that issue frog, a friend of my son in the goldfields had a Toyota Prius, when travelling on the open road over 80klm/hr it was on the ICE motor 100%. He sold it because most of his running out in the bush was at highway speeds. So as you say much less efficient.
By the way, next fine weekend in Perth myself and a mate are renting a Tesla model 3, so that should be fun. 😜


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2021)

basilio said:


> The move to electrify trucks for underground mines is moving quickly.  ICE vehicles just cost too much to run in maintenace as well as air venting requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Spot on Bas, raise boring ventilation shafts, is a costly and time consuming process. 
As soon as EV underground haul trucks are viable, they will be jumped on big time.


----------



## qldfrog (9 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on Bas, raise boring ventilation shafts, is a costly and time consuming process.
> As soon as EV underground haul trucks are viable, they will be jumped on big time.



Yes and now, i was heavily involved in electronic design for UG mines.regulations in term of explosions and Fire risks are VERY stringent, and the risk of explosions and fire in EVs are VERY high, vs diesel ICE.
Ventilation shafts are mainly used to clear explosive and toxic gases, not for o2 or exhaust fumes
A woke BHP might push for regulztion changes that any labour gov will agree to, until we get a dozen roasted miners and a royal enquiry following.
They might read this post then....
all good, i do not go UG anymore....


----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2021)

Land Rover to develop a hydrogen fuel cell Defender.




__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				



From the article:
Jaguar Land Rover will develop a hydrogen-powered prototype of its iconic Defender SUV as the carmaker works toward cutting tailpipe emissions to zero by 2036.
The fuel-cell Defender will be partly funded by the U.K. government and testing will start at the end of this year, Jaguar Land Rover said in a statement. Rapid refueling times is making hydrogen, which only emits water, ideal for larger vehicles with longer driving ranges, the carmaker said.
In February, the U.K.’s biggest carmaker laid out plans to electrify its lineup under new chief executive officer Thierry Bollore, with the Jaguar brand quitting sales of combustion-engine cars completely just four years from now. Automakers from Europe’s biggest manufacturer Volkswagen AG to Jaguar’s smaller rival Lotus Cars are accelerating plans for EV rollouts to keep pace with tightening emissions regulation. The U.K. plans to ban sales of cars that run entirely on combustion engines from 2030.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Ventilation shafts are mainly used to clear explosive and toxic gases, not for o2 or exhaust fumes



I'm no mining expert but I know the unions were on about diesel exhaust some years ago and that mines needed to increase ventilation to keep exhaust gas concentration to acceptable levels.


----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm no mining expert but I know the unions were on about diesel exhaust some years ago and that mines needed to increase ventilation to keep exhaust gas concentration to acceptable levels.



Yes in declines, the trucks, boggers and service vehicles are running 24/7, ventilation is critical, they clear all fumes from blasts and emissions.
In shaft mines the issues are different from declines, shaft mines tend to use BEV's, whereas declines use diesels.






And when the big one, reverses over the little one, in confined spaces.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> regulations in term of explosions and Fire risks are VERY stringent, and the risk of explosions and fire in EVs are VERY high, vs diesel ICE.



FWIW petrol vehicles were prohibited in underground power stations decades ago, at least as far back as the late 1950's, for that reason plus also the danger of carbon monoxide.

Only exceptions I'm aware of was when a passenger car was required for a Royal visit or similar and they were subject to a lot of checks and so on.


----------



## qldfrog (15 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes in declines, the trucks, boggers and service vehicles are running 24/7, ventilation is critical, they clear all fumes from blasts and emissions.
> View attachment 126110
> 
> 
> ...



UG, in many places, vents are running 24/7 even wo diesel just because of methane seeping and creating explosive conditions, the reasons EVs are very unwelcome UG in my opinion.
I worked mainly in qld and coal mines where it is the #1 issue..and cause of accidents google Moura explosions..many losses of lives,
 etc
obviously in gold mines, etc less of a risk..so less an issue in WA


----------



## sptrawler (15 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> UG, in many places, vents are running 24/7 even wo diesel just because of methane seeping and creating explosive conditions, the reasons EVs are very unwelcome UG in my opinion.
> I worked mainly in qld and coal mines where it is the #1 issue..and cause of accidents google Moura explosions..many losses of lives,
> etc
> obviously in gold mines, etc less of a risk..so less an issue in WA



Yes the W.A coal mines are open cut, so probably don't have the same issues as Queensland.
The nickel and gold mines are mainly decline or open cut, I can't think of any shaft mines in W.A anymore. It used to give me the creeps going down the shaft at Silver Lake mine, when I was a kid, they used to run lead acid battery loco's to haul the ore to the material skip, then it was wound up the shaft.
 The newer lithium powered loco's will probably be a huge improvement. The Chinese are using unmanned underground loco's.
https://im-mining.com/2020/05/24/chinas-mines-rolling-unmanned-underground-rail-systems-rapid-pace/


----------



## over9k (16 June 2021)

The phrase "canary in the coalmine" exists for a reason.


----------



## sptrawler (16 June 2021)

over9k said:


> The phrase "canary in the coalmine" exists for a reason.



How many have you been down?


----------



## sptrawler (16 June 2021)

The signing of the free trade agreement with the U.K, should smooth a transition to E.V's for Australia.
the U.K has set a 2030 timeline to remove ICE engined vehicles, one would think that would mean a lot of infrastructure re configuration and adaption would have to rolled out.
A lot of it will be hit and miss, some will work some wont, but a huge amount of money will have to be thrown at the BEV integration, into real life issues, like on street parking and charging, multi story apartment block electrical infrastructure upgrades, for two way power flow.

So a lot will be learnt in the next few years, with regard V2G charging, also the U.K is developing their own BEV vehicles, having a close two way communication through the free trade agreement, should save Australia a huge amount of R & D costs plus trail and error learning experiences.
IMO it will be a huge plus for Australia's transition to BEV's.








						'A new dawn': Australia and UK strike agreement for post-Brexit free trade deal
					

A free trade deal between Australia and the United Kingdom is hailed by British Prime Minister Boris Johnson as "a new dawn" in relations between the two countries.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## qldfrog (16 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> How many have you been down?



asking me?, not that many 3 from memory, all of them coal mines and I spent 3y working on a ventilation software within csiro, so my interest in the sector


----------



## over9k (17 June 2021)

I can't help but think that this is a little optimistic


----------



## sptrawler (18 June 2021)

over9k said:


> I can't help but think that this is a little optimistic.



It is a little off topic, but if i was you I wouldn't be too pessimistic.








						Prepare for flying cars, says Hyundai and General Motors execs – report
					

Hyundai says you could be seeing flying cars within a few years, but don't expect to buy one at your local dealership.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## basilio (19 June 2021)

Fleets of electric taxis with  5 minute change over batteries in a modern European city ...

So when has this happened?  Try  almost 80 years ago in Barcelona.









						Electric Taxi and battery changes
					

Fascinating this rapid change of batteries in the Eucort Taxi in Barcelona in 1943, as shown by this RTVE film. But they were not […]




					www.prestigeelectriccar.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 June 2021)

Not cars but buses.

Not my video but I've been there.


----------



## qldfrog (20 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not cars but buses.
> 
> Not my video but I've been there.




Proven technology, 50y old or so, trams on wheels, and yet, in Australia, we still build/debate rail trams which can block the network over a badly parked car or a minor accident .
See Melbourne...
But true, easier to drive/automate with rail: start stop only


----------



## basilio (20 June 2021)

Here are your electric "cars" /delivery vehicles whatever.

_An electric flying race car has taken flight for the first time in Australia, ahead of a proposed series of remotely piloted races later in the year.

The Alauda Airspeeder Mk3, a four-metre-long multicopter, has taken its first unmanned test flights in the South Australian desert, with approval from Australia’s Civil Aviation Safety Authority.

Weighing 130kg, the vehicle has a thrust-to-weight ratio exceeding some of the world’s most advanced fighter aircraft.






https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ernment-awards-1m-grant-to-develop-flying-car
Matthew Pearson, the founder of the firm that built the vehicle, Alauda Aeronautics, said it will be flown in a Formula One–style series of races, with up to 10 aircraft flying in the air at the same time. Three races will take place later in 2021, in locations yet to be announced.

Depending on the terrain, the vehicles will fly at speeds between 150 to 250km per hour, Pearson said._









						Flying electric car takes off in South Australian desert ahead of Formula One-style races
					

Alauda Airspeeder Mk3, a four-metre-long multicopter, makes unmanned test flights but team hopes to shift to pilots




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (21 June 2021)

At last, the narrative is turning around to the technical issues with BEV's, the trails being carried out are obviously highlighting issues, which is a lot better than the problems showing up when the uptake increases.
AGL is also carrying out charging trails and some smart charging control software from the U.K.








						‘Batteries on wheels’: The smart-charging tech in garages needed to drive EV boom
					

One of Australia’s biggest power companies has called on governments to promote smart chargers in garages to prevent EV motorists from overloading the grid.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
Australian power giant Origin Energy has called for governments to provide incentives for electric car smart chargers in garages to prevent motorists plugging in en masse during the peak evening demand period from overloading the grid.

As Victoria and NSW embark on ambitious plans to accelerate electric vehicle uptake, an Australian-first trial conducted by Origin has found that when EVs are adopted more widely charging times will need to be managed to minimise risks of blackouts and price spikes.
The trial has so far installed smart chargers for 70 residential electric vehicle owners and 33 businesses and obtained their baseline charging data. Smart chargers co-ordinate recharging times with periods of surplus solar-power supply, such the middle of the day, and avoid adding strain to peak demand periods on the grid from 5-6pm onwards.
Chau Le, Origin’s head of e-mobility, said more than 60 per cent of participants prior to the trial had been plugging their car batteries into standard sockets in their garages, usually during the evenings. With smart-charging devices, most charging still occurred in the evening, but the consumption could be spaced out to ease the load on the grid, she said.

“Without incentives and regulatory policies that encourage smart charging, that’s what’s going to happen when mass-market adoption takes off; you’re going to have all these EVs [electric vehicles] that are being charged that cannot be enrolled onto smart-charging programs or cannot be managed,” Ms Le said.
“We do expect ... that will cause constraints on the network and the wholesale market, if it’s not managed properly.

The trial was jointly funded by the federal government’s Australian Renewable Energy Agency.

As many electric cars are likely to spend extended periods parked in home garages, power companies say smart chargers could also work like “batteries on wheels”. When plugged in, car batteries could soak up excess power from rooftop solar panels, dispense it later into virtual power plants – groups of hundreds or thousands of homes with solar and batteries linked up to manage demand and energy flows – and generate a potential profit for customers.

Electric cars could account for an additional 22 terawatt hours of load on the electricity grid by 2040, according to Origin.

The Victorian government has set a target for electric vehicles to account for 50 per cent of new sales by 2030 and subsidies of up to $3000 for buyers, while NSW on Sunday also announced a $3000 upfront discount and said it would waive stamp duty for buyers.

AGL interim managing director Graeme Hunt, who welcomed the NSW government’s announcement on Sunday, said initiatives that facilitate the rollout of electric vehicles and investment in infrastructure were important steps in electric vehicles “becoming a bigger part of Australian life”.

“The uptake and integration of electric vehicles in the Australian market will be influenced by initiatives that facilitate consumer access and developing technical insights to inform regulatory design,” he said.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> more than 60 per cent of participants prior to the trial had been plugging their car batteries into standard sockets in their garages, usually during the evenings.



That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.

EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.

The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis.


----------



## sptrawler (21 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.
> 
> EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.
> 
> The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis.



Which is what we have been saying, if the governments incentivises the purchase of BEV's, before we have the infrastructure and charging systems worked out it will be absolute madness IMO.
AGL recently started a BEV charging system trail and from memory purchased a U.K based control system, until these trails are over and everything is sorted accelerating the uptake of BEV's will be a nightmare IMO.
https://arena.gov.au/projects/agl-electric-vehicle-orchestration-trial/


----------



## sptrawler (21 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Wont be long before you will be able to sell some of your BEV capacity to the grid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is the post in March, I was looking for.


----------



## qldfrog (21 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.
> 
> EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.
> 
> The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis.



but most EV will need to be charged by night, retirees like me are exception and will not affect the grid as we will use free PV from roof panel, But the average Joe, will arrive home at 6 at the earliest and be gone potentially at 6 or 7,with maybe a run for the kid's soccer or shopping so he will not plug before 8PM or so,at a period with 0 solar input, and less than 10h free for loading, loading taking 6 to 10h or so..not much room at the present so ideally you charge the cars at work or at the parking, in the street...yet good luck for that...
Technically ok, socially>  a failure in waiting if you expect sharing public access power-points..look howeven  phone booths were treated  30y ago, at a time where people were much better "behaved"


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> the average Joe, will arrive home at 6 at the earliest and be gone potentially at 6 or 7,with maybe a run for the kid's soccer or shopping so he will not plug before 8PM or so,at a period with 0 solar input, and less than 10h free for loading, loading taking 6 to 10h or so..not much room at the present so ideally you charge the cars at work or at the parking, in the street...yet good luck for that...




What's needed is a smart approach.

If the battery is already 90% charged then it tops up at 3am.

If it's half charged then it charges 1am - 6am.

If it's near flat then it starts at 9pm in order to fully charge.

Etc and make that happen automatically.

That's a crude example but the technical need is to avoid a situation where most people come home sometime between late afternoon and early evening, plug the car in and it charges straight away then by ~7pm they're reaching full charge. Since electricity demand already peaks a bit after 6pm that scenario would be an outright nightmare and cost $ billions in infrastructure to make it work.

Versus charging in the middle of the night or during the 10am - 3pm period it's vastly more manageable using existing infrastructure.

It doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough to not be a problem.


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Technically ok, socially> a failure in waiting if you expect sharing public access power-points..look howeven phone booths were treated 30y ago, at a time where people were much better "behaved"



FWIW there's a big difference between countries there.

I've seen a line of EV's parked at night, outside on a street, in France and nobody seemed to be interfering with them. They were all plugged in and this was a public street out in the open with anyone (eg me) walking past.

More extreme, I've seen public mobile phone charging stations overseas located outside in the open with an umbrella like covering and yes they supply the cable. That sort of thing probably wouldn't survive a single day in Australia unfortunately but it didn't seem to be a problem in Qatar when I spotted it. Charging station just sitting there and all the cables for different phones were there with it.

Cultural issues will preclude some options in some places I think yes.


----------



## qldfrog (22 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> FWIW there's a big difference between countries there.
> 
> I've seen a line of EV's parked at night, outside on a street, in France and nobody seemed to be interfering with them. They were all plugged in and this was a public street out in the open with anyone (eg me) walking past.
> 
> ...



Fully agree,would be interested to see what happened in France to these.
When thousand of cars parked in the street are burn every new year for the fun of it, velib and ev cars projects abandoned due to vandalism...i would not take France or any big town there as an example.
Even Germany ffs :
https://insideevs.com/news/504179/charging-station-minced-meat/amp/
the programs abandoned
https://europe.autonews.com/article...d-toyotas-stall-car-sharing-program-in-france
https://europe.autonews.com/article...dalism-is-a-hazard-of-ev-car-sharing-in-paris
And as France is descending into a collapsed lawless state. It will be an interesting experience.


----------



## Smurf1976 (22 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Fully agree,would be interested to see what happened in France to these.



No idea about those but whilst not an EV charger, a phone charger would seem far more vulnerable to vandalism but in some countries at least that doesn't seem to be a problem.

Spotted this one in Qatar (back in the days before the pandemic....) and note the cables, which are far more flimsy than anything used with an EV, just hanging there ready for use.




Also one of the few places in the country where there's any such thing as a lawn. They don't really do grass there - too hot and dry.

So it seems a real shame if people vandalising etc is going to stop the use of EV chargers in public.


----------



## qldfrog (22 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> No idea about those but whilst not an EV charger, a phone charger would seem far more vulnerable to vandalism but in some countries at least that doesn't seem to be a problem.
> 
> Spotted this one in Qatar (back in the days before the pandemic....) and note the cables, which are far more flimsy than anything used with an EV, just hanging there ready for use.
> 
> ...



So the green paradise: sharia law to allow EV development otherwise the permissive western societies will be unable to maintain required infrastructure


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> So the green paradise: sharia law to allow EV development



I wouldn't go quite that far.....  

I do think cultural issues are an aspect of this that has been overlooked however and will be relevant in some parts of the world.

If cars are normally parked on a street, but vandals smash the chargers, well that's a problem definitely.

The UK, with the tendency to park cars basically anywhere they'll fit, is another problematic one that comes to mind.

I'm sure it'll be done but there's going to be issues in some places definitely.


----------



## Value Collector (23 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.
> 
> EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.
> 
> The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis.



It’s one of the easiest problems to solve, definitely not a deal breaker for EV’s.

Tesla’s actually multiple ways to customise timing of charging already, I have mine set to begin charging at 9am each day when ever it is at home plugged in, because that is when my solar system is normally hits it limit of 5 KWH exports, so I have to use the excess power or my system gets limited.

With Tesla’s you have to options, you can set what time you want charging to begin or what time you want it to finish.

half the people set it to begin charging between 10pm and 12pm each night, and the other half set it to finish charging by 6am that would spread the charging across the off peak time.

while a lot of people would be charging during the day, during peak solar times.


----------



## basilio (23 June 2021)

Converting car washes to  EV charging stations. Practical and clever.

Ex-Liberal leader in new venture to convert 60 car washes to EV charging stations​
June 16, 2021





A new company chaired by former NSW Liberal leader Kerry Chikarovski has bought up 60 car washes around Australia, and plans to transform them into ultra-fast electric vehicle charging stations.

The company, called Bell Resources, will install solar panels and a battery at each car wash, and use them to power ultra-fast chargers ranging from 175 to 350 kilowatts.

The company’s chief executive, Mark Avery, told _The Driven _the chargers would eventually be able to charge EVs to 80 per cent in well under 10 minutes.

He said initially the plan would be to install around 100 kW of solar capacity at each site, but as demand grew, more capacity would be added by leasing space on neigbouring buildings, and other places. The batteries, built by Swedish firm ABB, would start at around 200kWh with the potential to increase in 100kWh blocks as demand grew, he said.

Avery said the car washes were mostly small operators, but would be brought under the uniform “Bell Hub” branding, and upgraded to resemble petrol stations, complete with “barista coffee” facilities and boards out the front advertising the going rate by the kilowatt.

The self-serve car wash facilities – which he said were often highly profitable – would remain there, though customers would not be able to charge and wash their car simultaneously.

Avery said the batteries would allow the company to set dynamic pricing, meaning at certain times – when the battery is well charged but demand is low – the cost per kilowatt could fall as low as 10 cents.









						Ex-Liberal leader in new venture to convert 60 car washes to EV charging stations
					

Sixty car washes around Australia are going to be turned into ultra-fast EV charging stations, with onsite batteries and solar panels.




					thedriven.io


----------



## SirRumpole (23 June 2021)

basilio said:


> The company, called Bell Resources, will install solar panels and a battery at each car wash, and use them to power ultra-fast chargers ranging from 175 to 350 kilowatts.




Wasn't Bell Resources Robert Holmes a Court's company of decades ago ?


----------



## Gunnerguy (23 June 2021)

basilio said:


> Converting car washes to  EV charging stations. Practical and clever.
> 
> Ex-Liberal leader in new venture to convert 60 car washes to EV charging stations​
> June 16, 2021
> ...



How can one invest in this type of company that is not on the ASX ?


----------



## basilio (23 June 2021)

Gunnerguy said:


> How can one invest in this type of company that is not on the ASX ?




Check it out on the net and join the queue  ? 








						Investor Center | Bell Resources Limited | ASX:BR1 | 2021
					

Investor Center. A leading Australian EV Chariging Station provider, Bell Resources Limited (BR1) is focused on helping customers to accelerate the transition of the transportation sector to sustainable energy. Bell Resources (Bell) supplies energy & resources to the electric vehicle & the...




					bellresources.com


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## Smurf1976 (23 June 2021)

Value Collector said:


> It’s one of the easiest problems to solve, definitely not a deal breaker for EV’s.



Agreed it’s easily solved.

The concern I have, and which is also becoming a concern of energy companies, is about it actually being done since research suggests that to very considerable extent it isn’t in practice.

I’ve used the analogy of rubbish bins in explaining it to others.

Dead simple as a concept and absolutely proven technology but despite that in practice litter is still a problem.

Something being possible is one thing, getting people to actually do it isn’t always so straightforward and that’s the concern - not just of me but of some rather big companies as well who’ve noticed the gap between possible and actual.

That’s a marketing and consumer behaviour problem rather than a technical one so far as solutions are concerned.


----------



## Value Collector (23 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed it’s easily solved.
> 
> The concern I have, and which is also becoming a concern of energy companies, is about it actually being done since research suggests that to very considerable extent it isn’t in practice.
> 
> ...



The easiest way to get consumers to charge when you want them to charge is to offer them a plan with pricing that incentivise them to charge  during off peak times.

At the moment most retail plans charge consumers the exact same price for electricity regardless of whether they charge during peak or off peak, that’s a bit silly.

I mean if a retailer can buy a KWH for 5 cents at after midnight, they should offer EV owners a plan that sells them power that KWH for 10 cents after midnight, other wise the consumer won’t care what time they charge, and might plug in when that KWH costs the retailer 40 cents or $1 which is what they are really worried about.

if they tell consumers that power is going to cost them 24 cents regardless of the time of day, the consumer won’t care about the time of day they charge.

if they want us to charge at midnight out of the goodness of our heart so they can make huge margins at our expense, some of us will do it and some won’t.


----------



## over9k (23 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> That's exactly the scenario I've been concerned about right from the start.
> 
> EV's, if people just do what they naturally would and put it on charge when they get home, will break the grid that's a given.
> 
> The same EV charged smartly isn't a problem at all so there's a need to get this right, and get it right from the start, not wait until there's a crisis.



Simply adjusting power prices appropriately for peak vs off peak (or even three tiers) will make people self smart-charge. 

Almost every problem like this is a simple question of incentive structure.


----------



## over9k (23 June 2021)

@sptrawler would be the man to ask about how the grid needs to change. I would guess it would actually be a lot better to have a higher baseload so there's less difference/change in draw over the 24 hour cycle but I'm only guessing.


----------



## over9k (23 June 2021)

_"Global electric vehicle supremacy will arrive by 2033 -- five years earlier than previously expected -- as tougher regulations and rising interest drive demand for zero-emission transportation, according to a new study.

Consultant Ernst & Young LLP now sees EV sales outpacing fossil fuel-burners in 12 years in Europe, China and the U.S. -- the world’s largest auto markets. And by 2045, non-EV sales are seen plummeting to less than 1% of the global car market, EY forecast using an AI-powered prediction tool"._

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-cars-coming-faster-than-expected-study-shows


Will probably make most peoples' morning brief this evening but we'll see if tesla, nio et al bounce in response.


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2021)

over9k said:


> @sptrawler would be the man to ask about how the grid needs to change. I would guess it would actually be a lot better to have a higher baseload so there's less difference/change in draw over the 24 hour cycle but I'm only guessing.



I'm more into generation and some small scale distribution in islanded country towns, @Smurf1976 is the man when it comes to grid size distribution and energy flows.
But IMO, you are pretty well on the money over9k, charging the BEV's when the renewables are going to waste during the day and selling some of that stored capacity back to the energy retailers during evening peak, will be the desired outcome. As you say, flattening out the load curve.

If that is done successfully, the need for governments and the private sector to install storage will be reduced.
Storage is the key, so having BEV charging controlled remotely by a centralised body, is imperative IMO.
The biggest problem will be getting the cart before the horse and ending up with an ad hock charging system that is thrown together, to catch up with the number of E.V's being sold.
The best transmission grid software for BEV charging control and suitable charging infrastructure needs to be sorted and in service, before BEV's become mainstream. Also as you say, incentives to encourage people to charge smartly, will no doubt be rolled out.  

In some small country towns that aren't covered by the grid, the advent of BEV's, will probably require a complete distribution and generation upgrade, it is certainly going to be an interesting 10 years.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 June 2021)

over9k said:


> Simply adjusting power prices appropriately for peak vs off peak (or even three tiers) will make people self smart-charge.



In theory totally agreed.

In practice I'm not convinced.

Reason being that data available thus far shows that, whilst EV's are not yet common, the typical scenario is that the owner arrives home, plugs it in and it charges straight away. That's what's ringing the alarm bells since for rather a lot of consumers that time just happens to be right on the existing peak in electricity demand which is the issue.

Broadly speaking the electricity industry has similar concerns. Some network operators have engaged in a collective trial of an automated "smart" approach, in other cases retailers are trying to do it via pricing and so on.

Overall though there's significant concern and I'm not the only one with it: https://www.theage.com.au/business/...-needed-to-drive-ev-boom-20210621-p582tg.html



> Origin Energy has called for governments to provide incentives for electric car smart chargers in garages to prevent motorists plugging in en masse during the peak evening demand period




The basic problem being that charging at ~6pm is the "natural" thing many will do, plug it in when they get home, but that's far from ideal given that to the extent there's spare capacity in existing infrastructure, it's primarily late at night and during the middle of the day.

It's an absolutely solvable problem I agree but, as with Origin and quite a few others, I do have concerns about getting consumers to actually do it.


----------



## sptrawler (23 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> In theory totally agreed.
> 
> In practice I'm not convinced.
> 
> ...




Which is what I was alluding to.


sptrawler said:


> The best transmission grid software for BEV charging control and suitable charging infrastructure needs to be sorted and in service, before BEV's become mainstream.



In reality when people get home and plug in is exactly when the system needs the EV's storage, so software needs to be developed to take a percentage of the BEV's storage, that is the software energy companies have to develop.
The chargers have to be smart enough to be able to work off an app, that may work like this: O.K how much of your EV storage are you prepared to allocate tonight e.g 20%, 30% etc (there has to be an emergency stop function), then when the EV is plugged in that much is available. If the battery is too low, the customer is charged a penalty rate.
But the app will have to be able to be responsive to live time data changes eg if I may need to take the wife to hospital tonight cancel the allocation, so the chargers and the software has to be very smooth, not clunky as is usually supplied by the lowest tender.
It is going to be critical that real time monitoring and a very clever application is developed, this is how the grid will evolve to renewables IMO.
Also the very reason I say we have to get it right first time, it will be a cluster fluck, if this isn't done right, unlike the E.U we don't have an extension cord to other countries grid systems.
Also the reason why not going headlong into it, is going to end up with a much better outcome IMO, this could actually make Australia at the forefront of EV integration if done well.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## over9k (23 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> In theory totally agreed.
> 
> In practice I'm not convinced.
> 
> ...



Sure but that's at current prices. 

Again, just adjust them until you get the desired effect.


----------



## qldfrog (24 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Which is what I was alluding to.
> 
> In reality when people get home and plug in is exactly when the system needs the EV's storage, so software needs to be developed to take a percentage of the BEV's storage, that is the software energy companies have to develop.
> The chargers have to be smart enough to be able to work off an app, that may work like this: O.K how much of your EV storage are you prepared to allocate tonight e.g 20%, 30% etc (there has to be an emergency stop function), then when the EV is plugged in that much is available. If the battery is too low, the customer is charged a penalty rate.
> ...



All good on paper and principle,but can it possibly work? I have serious doubt
Buses,trucks,taxis will have to be out as they drive all day and even finding a 6h slot to charge will be hard.
They will consume a lot


So rough number 40+% of current ice consumption will be unable to participate
Of the the 59ish% left, how many will be able to participate?
And how long before they realise they are the suckers in the game,they buy the assets,which is used and degraded outside their control, and they bear the costs and inconvenience.
Anyway, so much wrong with this ev push . ideology before fact is the repeat scheme
https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-insurance/research/average-fuel-consumption-australia.html
Both my ute and all cars consumption are 30% below the average consumption noted here.
And they are not small or new....so do not expect the future ev owners to be more considerate.


----------



## qldfrog (24 June 2021)

So the way it will go:
The grid will collapse and the uber green vegan EV toorak tractors and Tesla will be blamed and scratched,while the commoners leaf style EV will be stuck at home with flat batteries


----------



## qldfrog (24 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> So the way it will go:
> The grid will collapse and the uber green vegan EV toorak tractors and Tesla will be blamed and scratched,while the commoners leaf style EV will be stuck at home with flat batteries



What i mean to say is that replacing the whole ice fleet with ev for environmental reason is a pipe dream, both in term of infrastructure, electric energy production and current battery components.
Yes it may change, if we develop batteries made with thin air iron or carbon, whatever is cheap and common.
But as is, we sell the idea of every car replaced by a Tesla style car in 10 to 15y and this will/can not physically happen.
Remember we are living in a country where it takes 5y to build a pedestrian bridge over the brisbane river.
But if forced?under duress we will act...
Well we close the Mater hospital to routine surgery this week due to planned common flu surge, 1.5 y after a world pandemic spared us...
Just putting back hard truth back in the debate and it is not pleasant...


----------



## Value Collector (24 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> In theory totally agreed.
> 
> In practice I'm not convinced.
> 
> Reason being that data available thus far shows that, whilst EV's are not yet common, the typical scenario is that the owner arrives home, plugs it in and it charges straight away. That's what's ringing the alarm bells



Charging doesn’t have to begin when the car is first plugged in though.

for example I just got home now and plugged my car in, but it isn’t programmed to begin charging until tomorrow at 9am.

with Tesla’s you pick what ever charge time you want, and that’s when the car begins charging.

Eg. you can set it to start charging at say 11pm when you know that your provider gives you cheap rates, and then it doesn’t matter if you plug it in at 5pm when you get home,   because it won’t start charging till 11pm.

Or you can set it to finish charging at a certain time eg 6am in the morning, the car will then calculate what time it needs to begin charging to make sure it finishes at exactly 6am for you, so if it only needs 2 hours to charge it will begin at 4am if it needs 5 hours it will begin at 1 am etc.


----------



## Value Collector (24 June 2021)

Also, Tesla’s can accept any AC charge from 1kwh through to 22 kWhs. (Dc charging up to 180kwh) 

so another strategy could be that smart chargers controlled by the energy company could not only control when cars begin charging, but could speed up or slow down charge rates as needed to manage the demand.


----------



## sptrawler (24 June 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Charging doesn’t have to begin when the car is first plugged in though.
> 
> for example I just got home now and plugged my car in, but it isn’t programmed to begin charging until tomorrow at 9am.
> 
> ...




I don't think smurf was talking about Tesla owners, who are generally high income earning yuppies, or self funded 40 year olds. 
I think he was referring to, how the general public driving a very base model of affordable E.V doing the Monday to Friday 8 to 5 grind, will probably charge their low cost Chinese BEV.





Value Collector said:


> so another strategy could be that smart chargers controlled by the energy company could not only control when cars begin charging, but could speed up or slow down charge rates as needed to manage the demand.



That is what smurf and I are talking about.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 June 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Charging doesn’t have to begin when the car is first plugged in though.



No argument there on the technical side.   

The basic concern is that for the majority of consumers who are on flat rate pricing, they have no idea that there's even a reason why they ought to avoid charging at certain times and, even if they are aware, the only reason they'll do so is "do the right thing" sort of thinking since they personally gain no benefit from doing so.

Hence the concern of Origin and others than in practice consumers probably won't do so, they'll just plug in and it charges straight away. Not a problem if that's midnight when they get home or it's 10am or whatever but big problem if it's 6pm and it's no secret that's exactly when rather a lot of people do in practice arrive home. Indeed that's why electricity demand peaks just after 6 - it's a large group of people arriving home, turning on the heating, cooking dinner and so on.

The underlying technical issue there being best explained by saying that existing infrastructure has plenty of ability to supply the energy required to charge EV's so long as it's not at the existing peak. If it is at the peak then we're up for $ billions in upgrades and so on, hence the desire of people like me to avoid that since it seems a silly waste both economically and environmentally given there's a simple workaround by charging at a different time.

The issue isn't about what can be done technically, it's about getting it done noting that the extreme politics surrounding the situation is such that public discussion on the technical and practical aspects is extremely difficult. 

If it was just a straight technical thing then sure, easily done.


----------



## over9k (25 June 2021)

I know I keep labouring this point, but I just don't see how the right pricing structure and a smart charger wouldn't solve this?


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2021)

over9k said:


> I know I keep labouring this point, but I just don't see how the right pricing structure and a smart charger wouldn't solve this?



It will, but the smart charging infrastructure is only just starting to be developed, Origin and AGL have only recently commenced trails, if you read back through the thread.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 June 2021)

over9k said:


> I know I keep labouring this point, but I just don't see how the right pricing structure and a smart charger wouldn't solve this?



A smart charger and associated pricing structure would solve it yes.

What the problem is, is summed up by Origin's research finding that 60% of existing EV users aren't actually doing that, they're just using a "dumb" charger that charges there and then and doing so most commonly during the evening when electricity demand for other uses is high.

That bit is what rings the alarm bells on the technical side. If that 60% continues to be the case as EV's become mainstream well the existing infrastructure is nowhere near adequate to cope without major upgrades being done.

How to get the 40% of consumers choosing a smarter approach to become the vast majority, in an environment where the focus of consumers is on lower priced options (smart chargers aren't cheap) and the entire issue is engulfed in politics, is what has thus far been the problem.

My argument isn't one against EV's but it's about how society can get the maximum benefits from them.


----------



## over9k (25 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> A smart charger and associated pricing structure would solve it yes.
> 
> What the problem is, is summed up by Origin's research finding that 60% of existing EV users aren't actually doing that, they're just using a "dumb" charger that charges there and then and doing so most commonly during the evening when electricity demand for other uses is high.
> 
> ...



Yes but that's at current price structure/scheduling no?


----------



## over9k (25 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It will, but the smart charging infrastructure is only just starting to be developed, Origin and AGL have only recently commenced trails, if you read back through the thread.



Off peak is 9pm-7am, so I just plug the car in with a timer on the switch to run between those times, the end?


----------



## SirRumpole (25 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> How to get the 40% of consumers choosing a smarter approach to become the vast majority,




Legislative requirement ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Legislative requirement ?



I didn’t expect the article link to prompt so much debate...

If the law permitted forcing consumers onto time-based pricing then almost certainly that would lead to a lot more choosing to charge their EV at times when it creates no issues. It brings about the price-induced fix referred to.

The problem at the moment however is that the majority are on flat rates, same price anytime, and in most of the country the law doesn't allow a distributor or retailer to force a change unless the consumer wants it. Some exceptions but in general that’s the case.

As per the research, a large portion of consumers aren't choosing to change of their own accord and therein lies the problem.

The issue is ridiculously simple to resolve but not actually being resolved. Hence the calls for action - but the trouble is the politics surrounding EV's isn't ideal there which complicates what ought to be straightforward.


----------



## qldfrog (25 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I didn’t expect the article link to prompt so much debate...
> 
> If the law permitted forcing consumers onto time-based pricing then almost certainly that would lead to a lot more choosing to charge their EV at times when it creates no issues. It brings about the price-induced fix referred to.
> 
> ...



Mr Smurf,
I seriously doubt the issue is as simple as you assume.
Point one: the 40/60 split from the study is not representative of the population.who has EV now? 
Not the early shift worker not the tradie leaving at 5 or 6 am and back at 4pm.
Not a young person going out every day for the gym, meet friends,soccer and sushi with GF.
So these studies are not going to be applicable to the average car user.
Then how long do you need to charge an ev to be back to fully loaded? Are we not talking 8 to 9 hours?
So for people arriving home and plugging att 6pm,you strt running their batteries down to 0 till what 8pm then recharge till 4 or 5am?
Bad luck if you have to go to a movie or get your pizza..this would only work in a uber urban centric world, not. In the suburbs where mosts of the cars are.
And still require power by night .. currently as you know nearly 100pc  coal stations...
Does not fit with the dream of green power Nirvana..and i would hate seeing my car battery destroyed to please the gov or AGL.


----------



## Value Collector (25 June 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Legislative requirement ?



Or just pricing, petrol stations used to do cheaper fuel on tuesdays to avoid the pay day rush, no reason electricity companies can’t do the same.

there is actually one company that already offers customers free power between 12pm-2pm on Saturday and Sunday, to combat solar glut.


----------



## Value Collector (25 June 2021)

There is also a charger currently on the market that monitors your solar production and only charges the car, while you are producing excess solar. The brand is “Zappi” I believe.


----------



## Value Collector (25 June 2021)

Here is a short video explaining the zappi charger.


----------



## moXJO (25 June 2021)

Who's sitting at home all day charging the car?

If we do go electric then it wouldn't surprise me if they jack up overnight rates. As everyone that works is going to charge overnight. This dream that there will be enough chargers at parking stations for everyone is just that. Then you add in factory parking etc and no doubt a shorter driving range on poor man's vehicles. Well there's a lot to sort out.


----------



## Value Collector (25 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> Who's sitting at home all day charging the car?
> 
> If we do go electric then it wouldn't surprise me if they jack up overnight rates. As everyone that works is going to charge overnight. This dream that there will be enough chargers at parking stations for everyone is just that. Then you add in factory parking etc and no doubt a shorter driving range on poor man's vehicles. Well there's a lot to sort out.





moXJO said:


> Who's sitting at home all day charging the car?
> 
> If we do go electric then it wouldn't surprise me if they jack up overnight rates. As everyone that works is going to charge overnight. This dream that there will be enough chargers at parking stations for everyone is just that. Then you add in factory parking etc and no doubt a shorter driving range on poor man's vehicles. Well there's a lot to sort out.



Lots of people, most people only fill up their car with fuel once a week, and could do that on the week ends, while they have a sleep in, or even while they are at their office, think about all the real estate agents, dentists, lawyers, etc etc operating out of neighbourhood type offices with parking out the back where their cars sit all day.

the fact is you don’t actually have to think about it, you just plug in and it will just charge when conditions are right through out the week, and if you notice it’s getting low you press the button and boost it up over night.

Also you only have to look at the timings of peak hour traffic flows to see that there are a lot less cars on the road in the middle of the day than there are in the mornings and late afternoon, so people could be charging while at work or after the morning school run etc.

Most people drive their car for less than 2 hours day, that’s alot of opportunity to be charging.


----------



## rederob (25 June 2021)

I had no idea that the USA's BEV trend had flatlined:


Given GM and Ford have locked in EV production in coming years there's no doubt this will turn around soon.
Other handy EV data for 2021 can be found here.


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## Smurf1976 (25 June 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Mr Smurf,
> I seriously doubt the issue is as simple as you assume.
> Point one: the 40/60 split from the study is not representative of the population.who has EV now?



Agreed.

To the extent that EV's are in use now, it seems a reasonable assumption that they have been purchased by people who are somewhat more aware of and concerned about energy and environmental issues than the population as a whole. I've no proof of that but it seems a reasonable assumption - nobody's ever argued the point when I've said it, it seems probable that it would be true despite the lack of proof.

That being so, current EV owners would logically be more inclined than the average person to "do the right thing" and/or choose options such as TOU pricing which save them money.

That a lot of them aren't doing so is, to use an analogy, a bit like someone doing a survey and finding that most nutritionists aren't eating a good diet. If they're not doing it then not much chance of convincing anyone else.

All of which gives technical people and the likes of Origin and the various electricity distributors thoughts of how this could be automated, thus removing the need for the consumer to think about it.

The thinking within one of the larger generating companies in the National Electricity Market is very much in that direction. Install a charger and remote control how it operates but with an override "charge right now" function that'll come at a higher price.

All that is about charging them as such. The idea of using parked EV's as a battery to feed the grid is a whole new ball game - one that can't work if we don't have control over charge and discharge but that's a second step as such.

All that said, it won't kill the concept of EV's if consumers don't go along with it and insist on charging whenever they like. Just means more cost to beef up supply to cope. I'd argue that's somewhat missing the point about EV's, it's failing to capture the full benefits both economic and environmental, but ultimately if that's what consumers choose well then it's doable, things can be built it's just resources and money.

I should also point out that this is looking ahead. There's no problem right now but I and others are thinking in terms of a future where EV's are mainstream and there's literally millions of them and how that works.


----------



## Gunnerguy (25 June 2021)

W


Smurf1976 said:


> I didn’t expect the article link to prompt so much debate...
> 
> If the law permitted forcing consumers onto time-based pricing then almost certainly that would lead to a lot more choosing to charge their EV at times when it creates no issues. It brings about the price-induced fix referred to.
> 
> ...



We have sprinkler days based on house number (legislated ? or forced by watercorp ?), why not nighttime recharge hours based on house numbers and just use a $5 ‘widget thingy’ on the power cable to ‘click on’ at a specific time. 
charging during the day is cheaper with the sun out, or your own created electricity from your panels.


----------



## qldfrog (25 June 2021)

Gunnerguy said:


> W
> 
> We have sprinkler days based on house number (legislated ? or forced by watercorp ?), why not nighttime recharge hours based on house numbers and just use a $5 ‘widget thingy’ on the power cable to ‘click on’ at a specific time.
> charging during the day is cheaper with the sun out, or your own created electricity from your panels.



And the other advantage is that you could over.charge a specific tariff for ev, with a road levy, an accident levy, etc etc once a sheeple, always a sheeple,. Sorry taxpayer...


----------



## sptrawler (25 June 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Here is a short video explaining the zappi charger.




I think this is more the issue and is where the ground work is really being done, also where the investment outcomes are produced.
Chargers are important, but having chargers that are compliant with energy providers is probably more important, if the customer wants to get any return.
I guess it is like everything, finding the sweet spot, not too early, not too late.




__





						Page Not Found
					






					www.agl.com.au
				



From the article:

About OVO

OVO is a collection of companies driving progress to net zero carbon living through harnessing clean, affordable energy for everyone. Across the group, OVO serves nearly 5 million customers with intelligent energy technology solutions to decarbonise homes. Founded in 2009 by Stephen Fitzpatrick, OVO redesigned the energy experience to be fairer, greener and simpler for all. Today, OVO is on a mission through its sustainability strategy, Plan Zero, to tackle the most important issue of our time - the climate crisis.

www.ovo.com

About Kaluza

Part of OVO, Kaluza is a leading intelligent energy platform powering the future of energy. From revolutionising billing to smart electric vehicle charging, Kaluza’s technology is empowering some of the biggest energy suppliers to better serve millions of customers. Its real-time cloud platform transforms supplier operations, reducing cost to serve and boosting customer engagement. Powered by Kaluza, suppliers can invest in innovating for tomorrow’s customers and drive decarbonisation with smart, low carbon technologies that not only reduce energy bills, but lay the foundations for a more flexible energy system.


----------



## moXJO (25 June 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Lots of people, most people only fill up their car with fuel once a week, and could do that on the week ends, while they have a sleep in, or even while they are at their office, think about all the real estate agents, dentists, lawyers, etc etc operating out of neighbourhood type offices with parking out the back where their cars sit all day.
> 
> the fact is you don’t actually have to think about it, you just plug in and it will just charge when conditions are right through out the week, and if you notice it’s getting low you press the button and boost it up over night.
> 
> ...



Not everyone has the luxury of being a lazy bugger like me, that basically rolls around when he wants.
My biggest concern is 9-5'ers that are being pushed out of cities already and travel greater distances. With housing you now have two people working so both cars are somewhere else during the day. Or if you have millions of kids like me then you have multiple vehicles.

Separate question for the techies:
If you had a block of units with 100 car spaces or more and they were all fitted with chargers (obviously not every one is on charge). Then you get a hot summers night with all the aircon cranked. In a high density area with similar going on. Will this become a problem or is it manageable?

If we truly are speeding towards this direction, it doesn't feel like we are doing enough at this stage.


----------



## Value Collector (26 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> Not everyone has the luxury of being a lazy bugger like me, that basically rolls around when he wants.
> My biggest concern is 9-5'ers that are being pushed out of cities already and travel greater distances. With housing you now have two people working so both cars are somewhere else during the day. Or if you have millions of kids like me then you have multiple vehicles.
> 
> Separate question for the techies:
> ...



Easy, as I explained 9-5’ers can charge at night, there is plenty of time to charge between 10pm and 6am to recover the daily drive, remember not every one uses an entire tank of fuel every day, most use less than a 1/4 of a tank, so would use less than a 1/4 of a battery.

But as I also mentioned, the people operate their cars based on all sorts of timings, some people work nights and don’t leave home till 4 pm, they could charge during the day from 9 onwards.

others can charge at work, or in parking lots etc. 

People seem to think 100% of people will need to charge every day from 0% to 100% this just isn’t the case.


----------



## Value Collector (26 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> Separate question for the techies:
> If you had a block of units with 100 car spaces or more and they were all fitted with chargers (obviously not every one is on charge). Then you get a hot summers night with all the aircon cranked. In a high density area with similar going on. Will this become a problem or is it manageable?



If you have multiple Tesla chargers in one location all connected to the same power circuit, they communicate with each other and adjust charging rates as that they don’t overload the circuit, I imagine it’s not difficult for other charger brands to do the same. Aircons would be a different circuit.

for example, if a circuit has a max safe load of 22 kWhs and it has 10 chargers on it, if one car is plugged in it will be able to charge at the full 22 kWh, if a second car plugs in charging rate will slow on both cars to 11 KWh, if all 10 slots are plugged in charging rate drops to 2.2 KWH, but as some cars hit 100% and stop charging the rate will begin increasing again.


----------



## over9k (26 June 2021)

Surely you could just add a "only charge in off-peak times" switch to the charger?


----------



## Value Collector (26 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> This dream that there will be enough chargers at parking stations for everyone is just that. Then you add in factory parking etc and no doubt a shorter driving range on poor man's vehicles. Well there's a lot to sort out.



If you ever travel to the colder parts of the USA, you will see entire parking lots fitted with power points used to keep engines warm in winter.

There is nothing really challenging with adding power points or charging cables to a certain percentage of parking spots if there were a need for it. But I don't see it being necessary most people will charge at home, or at fast chargers, but there will be car park owners that see profit to be made by adding extra services such as charging to their car parks.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 June 2021)

moXJO said:


> Separate question for the techies:
> If you had a block of units with 100 car spaces or more and they were all fitted with chargers (obviously not every one is on charge). Then you get a hot summers night with all the aircon cranked. In a high density area with similar going on. Will this become a problem or is it manageable?



The short answer in a typical situation is:

If it's managed such that they don't all charge at once whilst the air-conditioning and other loads are at maximum then no problem, it's doable.

If they do all charge at once then, in the absence of a supply upgrade, it'll trip the breakers / blow the fuses and there goes all power to the building. An electrician _should _ refuse to install such an arrangement if it's not up to scratch, but if it's just plugged into existing power points well then nobody can really stop that being done.

Same concept at a whole of town, state or national level.

Eg 45 degree day in Adelaide - there's effectively zero spare capacity in the grid around 7pm (indeed the infrastructure is barely able to cope as is fairly well known locally) but after that capacity gradually becomes available as load declines and by the early morning putting even 1,000,000 kW into EV's across the state wouldn't be a real drama, any issues would be purely local ones (eg a dozen EV's in the one garage etc). On a mild day it's not as extreme but the same basic pattern applies, there's a peak 6 - 7pm and far lower demand at other times.

Same basic pattern in all states with minor differences in the timing.

This chart of the load on centralised electricity supply, that is all sources except rooftop solar, for NSW shows the issue pretty clearly. So long as the charging isn't adding to the peak then no problem but if it does add to the peak, on a hot / cold day when demand already spikes, then that's a huge issue.

Green = load with scale on the right, purple = market price at the time with scale on the left. Solid line represents actual data for the past day, dotted line is forecast for tomorrow.

In states with a greater use of solar, eg SA, minimum load is around the middle of the day not overnight as in NSW (although NSW load around midday is certainly coming down as more rooftop solar is installed).

Source = AEMO




So there's spare capacity outside the peaks not only with generation but in the network as well and, given that there's generally no particular reason why an EV needs to charge straight away, it seems logical to make use of that existing spare capacity to do the job. That's the cheap and easy approach.

It's the same basic logic as saying that if you wanted to move lots of big wide loads at 20 km/h through the city well then police and transport authorities will be happy to facilitate it being done at a time when few others are on the roads, but they'd likely outright refuse to allow it if you wanted to do it during the commuter traffic peak when it would cause outright chaos. Much the same concept, if you're going to put a big load on and timing isn't critical then it's sensible to do it when not many others are using it.

That is of course assuming that the aim is to do it in the most economical and environmentally friendly way that works. More infrastructure could certainly be built, nothing precludes that, but it's $ and not without at least some environmental impact.


----------



## qldfrog (26 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think this is more the issue and is where the ground work is really being done, also where the investment outcomes are produced.
> Chargers are important, but having chargers that are compliant with energy providers is probably more important, if the customer wants to get any return.
> I guess it is like everything, finding the sweet spot, not too early, not too late.
> 
> ...



After spending a while in the startup pitch world, i can recognise pure BS from afar and this definitively one
As investors, it does not really count, look at Zoom and so many other unicorns: as long as you can offload to another sucker be it investor, corporation,bigger fish or Gov, you are laughting to the bank
But do not expect any real world result.


----------



## qldfrog (26 June 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The short answer in a typical situation is:
> 
> If it's managed such that they don't all charge at once whilst the air-conditioning and other loads are at maximum then no problem, it's doable.
> 
> ...



The overall fundamental issue i see is from a general concept one..
Whole policies built on the average guy,which means anyone outside the gauss peak is screwed, 9 to 5 is more 7 to 6 for many,then outter suburbs, rural households are sacrificed, or the x% who do shift jobs, the baker, the tradie with his ute and trailer.
Anyway, i do not doubt the most efficient economic model is a ant nest, but pity once more the freedom and individual.


----------



## rederob (26 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think this is more the issue and is where the ground work is really being done, also where the investment outcomes are produced.
> Chargers are important, but having chargers that are compliant with energy providers is probably more important, if the customer wants to get any return.
> I guess it is like everything, finding the sweet spot, not too early, not too late.
> 
> ...



As you, @Smurf1976 and @Value Collector keep pointing out, there are existing solutions to every issue raised in this thread.
On the other hand there are not enough EVs to cause a problem in Oz at the moment, nor a federal government that wants to proactively create a climate that facilitates a transition to EVs that has been underway in many countries for years.
Sadly we remain a backwater, and despite the government's rhetoric about innovation and job creation it has done very little to assist market sectors which have shown considerable growth overseas due to decarbonisation policies.
Or simply understand where the future lies:


----------



## basilio (26 June 2021)

rederob said:


> As you, @Smurf1976 and @Value Collector keep pointing out, there are existing solutions to every issue raised in this thread.
> On the other hand there are not enough EVs to cause a problem in Oz at the moment, nor a federal government that wants to proactively create a climate that facilitates a transition to EVs that has been underway in many countries for years.
> Sadly we remain a backwater, and despite the government's rhetoric about innovation and job creation it has done very little to assist market sectors which have shown considerable growth overseas due to decarbonisation policies.
> Or simply understand where the future lies:




Great site, great story.  Watching how a city of 12million people can totally electrify their buses and taxis in a few years is impressive. The last few clips are also inspiring.

Well. well worth viewing and appreciating the point of going electric and the  capacity of China to make it happen effectively. 
It was never a simple deal and they never said otherwise.


----------



## Joules MM1 (26 June 2021)

not reeeally a car ..i wanna drive one !!









						Airspeeder’s Electric Flying Racing Car Takes Maiden Flight
					

The brainchild of entrepreneur Matthew Pearson, Airspeeder is the motorsports series set up to fly the Alauda-manufactured flying cars. Airspeeder and Alauda are two separate companies set up by Pearson. Alauda is the production wing that designs and builds the vehicles, whereas Airspeeder is...




					cleantechnica.com
				





			https://cleantechnica.com/files/2021/06/Airspeeder.jpeg


----------



## sptrawler (26 June 2021)

Joules MM1 said:


> not reeeally a car ..i wanna drive one !!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When these things come out, the 6 o'clock news will finally be worth watching, just to watch the police chasing the stolen ones.


----------



## Value Collector (28 June 2021)

sptrawler said:


> When these things come out, the 6 o'clock news will finally be worth watching, just to watch the police chasing the stolen ones.



Prisons will have to cover their yards in netting, so that people don’t use these things to break their mates out of jail.


----------



## sptrawler (28 June 2021)

Hyundai, planning to bring all EV models to Australia.








						Hyundai Australia aims to bring "every" Hyundai electric vehicle Down Under
					

Every future Hyundai electric vehicle will be offered in Australia, if the brand's local arm gets its way, with 23 new EVs due globally by 2025. Hyundai




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## over9k (29 June 2021)

[Bragpost]


These EV manufacturers have become so popular (mainstream) that there are now specific Tesla, Nio etc ETF's & ETN's, one of which I bought a little while ago being 3LNI, a USD denominated NIO 3x bull share listed on the LSE (I bring the USD listed one up because if you already have a Commsec international account you won't need to convert the currency over again).

The reason why I bring it up is because electric cars screamed today - even tesla, despite its autopilot "recall" (which can be fixed with a web update) which for some reason only applied to Chinese models?

Nevertheless, on a day where EV's were off like a gunshot AND there was bad news for tesla, NIO absolutely screamed, running to a peak of 8.5% and counting as of 11.50 U.S eastern time, and with me selling a third of my 3LNI (NIO bull) holdings right before LSE close:




Giving a tidy 25% just on the day.

However, I only sold a third of my position off as I'm still a massive bull on NIO and tesla as well (I haven't touched my FNGU position) and fully plan on rebuying should we get a pullback sometime (an obviously likely event).

So I know this was a total bragpost but these are still massive buys in my opinion and 2x and 3x bull ETF's also now exist for both for the real degenerates among us.


Food for thought.

[/Bragpost]


----------



## over9k (30 June 2021)

Nio _still _on the move:


----------



## over9k (1 July 2021)

STILL going: 





27% run since I trimmed. Amazing. 


Good thing I only trimmed.


----------



## over9k (1 July 2021)

I had to sell some more: 




The run has been absolutely mental:


----------



## over9k (1 July 2021)

Telsa being left in the dust since the rebound:


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2021)

I just have to work out how to get this over the pits and then get an import license. 🤣
A full racing seat harness, should keep you on the seat and probably mudguards are required. A bench seat on the back, would give passengers an excellent panoramic view, now to see if I can get the wife onboard.


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Tesla is building a factory in China, how long before we have a Chinese car very similar to a Tesla for half the price?
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/06/teslas-china-factory-set-to-begin-production-late-next-year.html



That was Sept 2019, well how a couple of years is a long time, in the EV space.








						Tesla's weak sales in China worry investors
					

Tesla's recent run of bad publicity in China is apparently hurting its sales there, raising investor concerns.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2021)

Electric car sales jump.








						New electric car sales jump 59 per cent in 2020
					

The popularity of battery-powered passenger cars is gaining, government data reveals. Sales of new electric cars surged by 59 per cent in 2020, according




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (8 July 2021)

The U.K to build a couple of battery giga plants, may bode well for Australia with the free trade agreement, two way trade resources and EV's.




__





						UK's first gigafactory in Northumberland granted planning permission
					





					www.msn.com
				



From the article:
Plans for the UK's first operating battery-making gigafactory in Northumberland has been granted planning permission to build its huge plant in Blyth, bosses behind the project confirmed yesterday.

Britishvolt announced its intention to create the nation's first electric-car battery production site in December, though Tuesday evening's announcement is a step towards the factory being operational by 2023.

The factory, which will be established at a 235-acre site, is estimated to create 3,000 new jobs in the area.

It comes just days after Nissan announced its own battery gigafactory in Sunderland last week, and recent confirmation that Vauxhall's Ellesmere Port car factory is going to be converted into an electric van plant.


----------



## sptrawler (9 July 2021)

While on the subject of EV batteries, here is a great article, explaining the development of EV batteries and their makeup. 
Worth a read, if BEV's interest you.








						Here’s what Tesla will put in its new batteries
					

Every aspect gets touched, but some are more revolutionary than others.




					arstechnica.com


----------



## over9k (11 July 2021)

Lol


----------



## sptrawler (11 July 2021)

over9k said:


> Lol



Great idea, cleaning them after every sand storm would help employment.


----------



## basilio (12 July 2021)

over9k said:


> Lol





Bloody cheesy story. 

The Destertec proposal to build a series of PV solar farms around the Sahara  and the Middle East to provide clean power to Europe and Africa has merit.  That is shown for a couple of minutes. Not sure how advanced the proposal is however. The rest of the "idea"  is clickbait as the author acknowledges at the end.  Trying to set up thousands of solar farms deep in the Sahara is .....





__





						Desertec - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## over9k (13 July 2021)

And for a more serious post:


----------



## over9k (15 July 2021)




----------



## sptrawler (18 July 2021)

Chinese company to release a BEV with 1,000klm range, apparently.








						China's electric SUV offering 1000km of range
					

A new electric SUV from GAC is about to enter full-scale production, with a claimed driving range allowing a trip from Sydney to Melbourne without




					www.drive.com.au
				




And for those who just love the smell of petrol in the morning.








						Ford creates petrol fume fragrance for electric Mustang Mach-E
					

Some electric cars have fake petrol engine sounds, now there is a fake petrol smell. Ford of Europe has created what it describes as a “premium fragrance”




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (21 July 2021)

Ford  have started taking orders for its all electric F100 , the Lightning.
Lightning from Ford


> *Standard Range* vehicles develop a “targeted” *318kW* and *1051Nm*, enabling an estimated driving range on the US’s strict EPA test cycle of *370km*.
> 
> *Extended Range* models up the output to *420kW* and *1051Nm*, for *483km of estimated EPA range* and a projected *0-60mph (97km/h) sprint time in the “mid four-second range”* – though recent comments from US President Joe Biden suggest the benchmark dash could fall around 4.3 or 4.4 seconds.
> 
> ...




The first deliveries are slated to start in the second quarter of 2022. 
They are taking 7500 orders,.
I would buy one of these in a flash over say a RAM3500, or Diesel F250, or GMS Denali or etcc=.
Unfortunately, there are no plans to make a RHD model.
May have to wait for Tickfords FPV to start importing them and converting to OZ standards.
Would make a great towing vehicle to the van, provided I could keep it charged.
Unfortunately, its not possible to leave the driveway at the moment, much less leave the state.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (21 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Would make a great towing vehicle to the van, provided I could keep it charged.
> Unfortunately, its not possible to leave the driveway at the moment, much less leave the state.
> Mick



There quite a lot of charging locations, and they are growing rapidly.

you could tow a caravan from cairns to Melbourne if you want.

download the plug share app (its free), and you can find all the charging locations.

Also, if Ford does the same as Tesla, then on interstate road trips the car will find its own charging locations, you just put your destination into the navigation, and it plans a route that passes charging sites when needed.


----------



## IFocus (21 July 2021)

When the neighbour took me for a spin in his Tesla and removed all the wrinkles from my face from the acceleration I haven't stopped dreaming about one day owning one.

It was some thing to behold.


----------



## aus_trader (22 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> When the neighbour took me for a spin in his Tesla and removed all the wrinkles from my face from the acceleration I haven't stopped dreaming about one day owning one.
> 
> It was some thing to behold.



Yeah heard about that. I am yet to experience the electric motor torque. ⏩⏩⏩


----------



## Humid (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Ford  have started taking orders for its all electric F100 , the Lightning.
> Lightning from Ford
> 
> 
> ...



The big thing against these trucks is  fuel costs.....this could mean more parking hogs in shopping centres


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

Humid said:


> The big thing against these trucks is  fuel costs.....this could mean more parking hogs in shopping centres



What do you mean?
Charging an EV is much cheaper than buying petrol or diesel. and most people will just be charging at home.


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

IFocus said:


> When the neighbour took me for a spin in his Tesla and removed all the wrinkles from my face from the acceleration I haven't stopped dreaming about one day owning one.
> 
> It was some thing to behold.



This finding will decimate beauty product manufacturers who spend a fortune advertising anti aging and wrinkle eliminating concoctions.
Please send before and after photos to Elon Musk's advertising department to claim a reward.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> What do you mean?
> Charging an EV is much cheaper than buying petrol or diesel. and most people will just be charging at home.



Charging is cheaper than buying petrol or diesel , but you can bet your bottom dollar that states or feds will add a tax, excise, surcharge, stamp duty or whatever they want to call it, so that they can "maintain the roads".  The electricity is not free at home either, unless you have solar panels.
Secondly, no one has yet come up with the  practical solution to the scalability of electric vehicles. 
Everything's fine when there is a small percentage of vehicles that are EV's and want to charge, but there is a certain critical percentage where it all falls apart.
A 2021 tesla model S  with the 82KWh motor has a range of around 530 Kms according to tesla.
To charge this Tesla from say half charge to 82 KWH, would take around 17 hours at a continuous 10 amp supply, which is what most household power points are rated at.
If you wanted a fast charge, say 2 or 3 hours, you are going to need 60 to 90 amps of current. Very few houses have a supply that is rated to take that sort of current. The other issue is that OZ network has set up so that a single transformer supplies 4 to six houses, and none of them are designed for one or more houses to extract that sort of current from the network. An average daily use for a house is 19 KW/h per day, but of course in summer when aircons, the pool pump, etc are running, it can shoot up to 40+ kwh, which is about half the 82kw/h that our Tesla needs. Energex has a standard that says 42kVa per household in new developments, so that is what people get, unless they pay for "prestige home access "  of 7.0 kva.  Most older housing developments would have planning designed much less usage than that. It will be difficult to see how large scale EV charging is going to take place under these limitations.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Charging is cheaper than buying petrol or diesel , but you can bet your bottom dollar that states or feds will add a tax, excise, surcharge, stamp duty or whatever they want to call it, so that they can "maintain the roads".  The electricity is not free at home either, unless you have solar panels.
> Secondly, no one has yet come up with the  practical solution to the scalability of electric vehicles.
> Everything's fine when there is a small percentage of vehicles that are EV's and want to charge, but there is a certain critical percentage where it all falls apart.
> A 2021 tesla model S  with the 82KWh motor has a range of around 530 Kms according to tesla.
> ...



Stop it Mick, you are so boomer...reality is not restricted on a smartphone...
But true, good analysis..has been discussed a lot here


----------



## mullokintyre (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Charging is cheaper than buying petrol or diesel , but you can bet your bottom dollar that states or feds will add a tax, excise, surcharge, stamp duty or whatever they want to call it, so that they can "maintain the roads".  The electricity is not free at home either, unless you have solar panels.
> Secondly, no one has yet come up with the  practical solution to the scalability of electric vehicles.
> Everything's fine when there is a small percentage of vehicles that are EV's and want to charge, but there is a certain critical percentage where it all falls apart.
> A 2021 tesla model S  with the 82KWh motor has a range of around 530 Kms according to tesla.
> ...



I made a typo (actually probably made lots typos, hey I'm slysdexic). I said Energex has a standard that says 42kVa, should have read 4.2 kva.
Thats better.
Mick


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Charging is cheaper than buying petrol or diesel , but you can bet your bottom dollar that states or feds will add a tax, excise, surcharge, stamp duty or whatever they want to call it, so that they can "maintain the roads".  The electricity is not free at home either, unless you have solar panels.
> Secondly, no one has yet come up with the  practical solution to the scalability of electric vehicles.
> Everything's fine when there is a small percentage of vehicles that are EV's and want to charge, but there is a certain critical percentage where it all falls apart.
> A 2021 tesla model S  with the 82KWh motor has a range of around 530 Kms according to tesla.
> ...



Using your figures the total time needed for the average driver to charge an EV would total 7 hours a week or less than 2 hours per day:


It's hard to see that as a problem.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Using your figures the total time needed for the average driver to charge an EV would total 7 hours a week or less than 2 hours per day.



At rate? At what starting point of charge? To what capacity?
Mick


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> At rate? At what starting point of charge? To what capacity?
> Mick



Let's assume a car was charged over the weekend and ready to go anywhere on Monday.
The average driver will travel 11,100 km/year, or 215 km per week.  That leaves a range of over 300 km available at the end of each week. 
The maths on recharging to a 530km range suggest only 7 hours charge time is needed each week, using the average distances as a metric.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 July 2021)

> It's hard to see that as a problem.



Yeah, well I guess if  everything is average it would not. 
But the real world is significantly different, and that there are peaks and troughs, days when demand is almost nil, and days when its over the top.  if everything conformed to averages, we would never have blackouts or floods or lack of water crises or gridlocked freeways.
Not everyone lives in big cities with subsidsed public transport,  nice roads, etc. There are some  people who have drive 60 kms just to buy the groceries.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> Let's assume a car was charged over the weekend and ready to go anywhere on Monday.



Well theres ya problem straight away. Scalability. If everyone charges over the weekend, you have a massive spike in demand.
Averages, as useful as t1ts on a bull.
Mick


----------



## rederob (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Well theres ya problem straight away. Scalability. If everyone charges over the weekend, you have a massive spike in demand.
> Averages, as useful as t1ts on a bull.
> Mick



This is old ground in this thread.  Electricity demand on weekends is low, just as it is in the evenings during the week:


EV owners take advantage of the off peak rates each day - not just weekends - and it will take many millions of EVs to alter the present cycles.  In perspective, less than a million new vehicles are sold in Australia each year, so even if every car from today was a BEV, our electrical supply could cope for the next 10 years with only some modification.  I think we are capable of planning for BEV's such that it won't be a problem.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Charging is cheaper than buying petrol or diesel , but you can bet your bottom dollar that states or feds will add a tax, excise, surcharge, stamp duty or whatever they want to call it, so that they can "maintain the roads".  The electricity is not free at home either, unless you have solar panels.
> Secondly, no one has yet come up with the  practical solution to the scalability of electric vehicles.
> Everything's fine when there is a small percentage of vehicles that are EV's and want to charge, but there is a certain critical percentage where it all falls apart.
> A 2021 tesla model S  with the 82KWh motor has a range of around 530 Kms according to tesla.
> ...



I have owned a Tesla Since 2019 so understand the ins and outs of charging better than most, and have already had marathon debates in this thread explaining the exact points you raised so I don’t want to go over everything in depth again, but here a a few points where you are mistaken.

1, there is more than enough capacity on the grid to charge EV vehicles provided most of it is done during off peak times such as at night, during the middle of the day, or weekends.

2, If you install the Tesla wall charger that comes with the car rather than plug into a wall socket, you can easily charge over night, if you can charge at up to 22kwh depending on how you get your electrician to set it up, but 6kwh charging is standard when it’s on its own circuit. But if you really drive a lot you can pay to get up to 22 kWh, it’s more expensive to set up, but if you drive enough that you need it, the fuel savings more than cover the cost.

3, most people only go to the petrol station once a week, so even using the slow power point charger they could easily maintain charge.

4, The fast chargers will go from 0% to 80% in about 15 mins if you need to top up out on the road, not 2-3 hrs.

5, again very few people would be using the full 82kwh every day, think about it, if you aren’t going to the petrol station every day now, then you won’t be using a full battery every day.

6, smart chargers could easily be used to balance out charging loads if needed, my Tesla can accept any charge from 1kwh up to 22kwh through the home Tesla charger, and over 200kwh at a fast charger, these speeds could be controlled by the grid to balance demand as needed.

7, the underlying cost of electricity is far cheaper than the underlying cost of petrol once you remove the petrol tax, so even with an added tax electricity would be cheaper, for example currently it costs me about 25cents to charge with the equivalent of 1 litre of petrol, adding a 30cent tax to that only brings it up to 55cents, and it would be cheaper when I use solar which I do 95% of the time, or if I connected my charger to the off peak circuit.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Well theres ya problem straight away. Scalability. If everyone charges over the weekend, you have a massive spike in demand.
> Averages, as useful as t1ts on a bull.
> Mick



Did you know some electricity retailers give free power on the week ends between 12pm and 2pm because of negative electricity prices on the week end, the weekends have large solar and wind gluts normally.

charging on the week end would be very good for the system.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

rederob said:


> This is old ground in this thread.  Electricity demand on weekends is low, just as it is in the evenings during the week:
> View attachment 127679
> 
> EV owners take advantage of the off peak rates each day - not just weekends - and it will take many millions of EVs to alter the present cycles.  In perspective, less than a million new vehicles are sold in Australia each year, so even if every car from today was a BEV, our electrical supply could cope for the next 10 years with only some modification.  I think we are capable of planning for BEV's such that it won't be a problem.



Yep to put it in perspective, my hot water system consumes more power each day than my car, and the off peak circuit turns on at 10pm each night in my area, so most hot water systems would be finished heating by  midnight, that’s a lot of spare capacity sitting idle till 6am.

then you have the solar excess here in Qld that squashes prices from 10am to 2pm each day.

Energex  here in Qld installed a solar limiter on my solar system to limit my exports, so if I don’t charge my car at certain times I have power that just gets wasted.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

Right now as I type this Qld has negative electricity prices, and exports to NSW are maxed out, and it’s only 11.30. You can bet they would love have a hundred thousand EV’s plugged in right now to soak up supply.

I could be exporting an additional 1.6 KWh from my solar system, but I am being limited to exporting only KWH.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 July 2021)

A I said in my original post, the problem is in scalability. Value collector has real world experience which is highly valuable,  but the problem is the issue of scalability, not whether one persons experience is positive (excuse the electric pun).
The problems are peak loads. 
Car usage has peaks and troughs, and it is the peaks that will be a problem.  
Look at what happens at summer holiday time. 
Look at what happens at school  start and end times. 
The AEMO  figures quoted are a snapshot in time.
If the peaks of electricty generated with the peaks of vehicle requirements, it would be fine, but that just cannot be guaranteed.
There are other days when wind and solar produce zero, and gas, coal, diesel, or something else has to take up the slack..
The cost of electricity then becomes quite high.
This is also a snapshot in time, and equally useless. 
The aims are to remove ICE based cars from the world, a laudable  aim.
Its that massive number of EV's that will be the killer, not an individuals use.
Mick


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## rederob (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Car usage has peaks and troughs, and it is the peaks that will be a problem.



Most cars are garaged on weekends and outside working hours, and that's when electricity demand is lowest and prices are cheaper, so the opposite of your point seems to be the case.


mullokintyre said:


> The AEMO  figures quoted are a snapshot in time.



They are an accurate representation of weekday cycles, and on weekends demand is significantly less and "flatter".


mullokintyre said:


> If the peaks of electricty generated with the peaks of vehicle requirements, it would be fine, but that just cannot be guaranteed.
> There are other days when wind and solar produce zero, and gas, coal, diesel, or something else has to take up the slack..
> The cost of electricity then becomes quite high.



But EV's can be plugged in and programmed to access electricity when demand and prices are low.  This is possible at work (aside from charging point availability) or at home.  
Moreover, for the high volume driver, fast chargers would be used.  Yes we need more, but that's an infrastructure issue rather than a shortage of electricity.


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## mullokintyre (22 July 2021)

probably not a lot of use in continuing this argument.
As I said, I am an electrical engineer by academic quals, but spent most of my life in IT. However the training we did at Uni on Power Generation and distribution networks has not changed the laws of scalability.
We will just have to agree to disagree.
Mick


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## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> A I said in my original post, the problem is in scalability. Value collector has real world experience which is highly valuable,  but the problem is the issue of scalability, not whether one persons experience is positive (excuse the electric pun).
> The problems are peak loads.
> Car usage has peaks and troughs, and it is the peaks that will be a problem.
> Look at what happens at summer holiday time.
> ...



Electric cars have batteries, so charging doesn’t have to occur during peak usage.

for example look at the peak hour traffic times, from midnight to 6am the roads are empty, and the cars are all parked up, that’s perfect for charging at night.

then after 10am once the majority are at work and the school run is finished, a lot of cars are again parked up, that aligns with the midday peak in solar.

Also as pointed out, for most people doesn’t have to occur every day.

watch this 90 second video, it shows an affordable smart charger that allows you to only charge using your own solar, it would be super easy to design a charger controlled over wifi that the grid can control to balance loads.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> probably not a lot of use in continuing this argument.
> As I said, I am an electrical engineer by academic quals, but spent most of my life in IT. However the training we did at Uni on Power Generation and distribution networks has not changed the laws of scalability.
> We will just have to agree to disagree.
> Mick



If you are in IT, it shouldn’t be hard for you to imagine chargers connected to wifi, being controlled by the grid operators or electricity retailers.

they would love to be able to switch on and use their excess capacity during peak hours.

watch the video above.


----------



## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

If you want, check out this other thread, pretty much every concern you brought up was raised there and debated.






						Electric cars? for Aspies, Narcissists and Power Grid people
					

Sometimes there is a niche interest or problem that needs its own space. Therein lie many truths which the majority of people not only cannot understand but about which they have absolutely no interest.  Power in all its manifestations is important. Particularly electrical power. It's economics...




					www.aussiestockforums.com


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## divs4ever (22 July 2021)

not for me  , i have never had a driving licence ( but can drive , if i have to )

 i do hold VMT , which has ( IMO ) made  an awful mess of a niche , that was logical and efficient ( ultra small commercial vehicles )

 think pizza delivery ..  the scooter could be sitting on charge waiting for the next call   they seem to be making 3 wheel versions   so plenty of scope for government and business fleet work

 if government and business won't readily embrace EV  it is probably a one-winged duck  , quacks , waddles and not much else

 all GOOD inovation thrives on obvious efficiency


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## sptrawler (22 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Yep to put it in perspective, my hot water system consumes more power each day than my car, and the off peak circuit turns on at 10pm each night in my area, so most hot water systems would be finished heating by  midnight, that’s a lot of spare capacity sitting idle till 6am.
> 
> then you have the solar excess here in Qld that squashes prices from 10am to 2pm each day.
> 
> Energex  here in Qld installed a solar limiter on my solar system to limit my exports, so if I don’t charge my car at certain times I have power that just gets wasted.



The only issue with the off peak usage is, that is supplied by fossil fuel generation, which is exactly what we are trying to shut down.
It isn't an insurmountable problem, but it isn't on the plus side of the equation for BEV's.
They are coming but there are a lot of technical issue to be worked through IMO.


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## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The only issue with the off peak usage is, that is supplied by fossil fuel generation, which is exactly what we are trying to shut down.
> It isn't an insurmountable problem, but it isn't on the plus side of the equation for BEV's.
> They are coming but there are a lot of technical issue to be worked through IMO.



Not really, as I showed today QLD was in negative rates for a few hours due to solar, and for several days in the past week Victoria has been having a large amount of wind during off peak and high solar times.

Also pretty much 100% of petrol and diesel come from fossil fuels, so worst case scenario you are just swapping oil for a mix of coal, Gas, wind, solar and hydro so you will still be on top.

we don’t have to have a perfect 0% fossil fuel carbon neutral solution before deciding to move away from something that is 100% fossil fuel.


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## divs4ever (22 July 2021)

technical , or just hoopla 

 GM had an EV years ago it sold to ( probably leased ) to certain US government agencies 

 EVs are NOT new technology , new technology  has been used on EVs 

 there are certain areas  EVs should be a no-brainer BUT some insist it is an all singing , all-dancing , miracle multi-tool  , which risks EVs becoming a mediocre option  for almost everything  .. wait until they offer a built-in toaster and coffee warmer


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## Value Collector (22 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> there are certain areas  EVs should be a no-brainer BUT some insist it is an all singing , all-dancing , miracle multi-tool  , which risks EVs becoming a mediocre option  for almost everything  .. wait until they offer a built-in toaster and coffee warmer




You are right EV’s only suit 99% of the population at the moment.

Almost all of the reasons people think that EV’s wouldn’t suit them are normally false, or just misunderstandings about how EV’s actually work.

for example the folks that say that they wouldn’t get an EV until there is just as many Ev charging stations as there are petrol stations. however if that person thought honestly about it, and asked them selves how many times a year they would actually go to the petrol station if they could fill up in their garage for 25cents a litre, the answer would be almost never etc for road trips.

people also seem to think that charging an ev is a time wasting exercise, however it takes 20 seconds to plug in, where as you can waste 10mins a week or 8 hours a year at the petrol station.


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## qldfrog (30 July 2021)

Let's have a bit of a fun during our house arrest:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/n...lls-prosecutors-say-11627572394?siteid=yhoof2


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

well city councils , and government vehicles that travel short distances a day ( so 300 km a day ) should have been EV  as a start 

less urban pollution  ,  and a good example for those who do not travel long distances regularly  ( and MIGHT choose EV  most times  but hire  a gas guzzler for long trips  say the annual holidays )


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

No Cookies | Herald Sun
					

No Cookies




					www.heraldsun.com.au
				



From the article:
On Friday, Mr Taylor will also announce five companies will share in $25m to deliver more than 400 fast-charging stations for electric vehicles across the country.

More than 100 of the new stations will be located across Victoria.


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## JohnDe (30 July 2021)

I am involved with the automotive industry, and have been interested in EV's for quite some time. I looked at purchasing about 3 years ago but nothing took my fancy, except for the Tesla but the price for new and second hand was more than I was willing to pay. Until recently.

My wife and I first took one for a test drive in January, we were both blown away, and I ordered one a few months later. I took delivery of a new Tesla M3 LR about 5 weeks ago and it is my wife's daily drive. Every time I drive it I feel that I'm in a vehicle of the future, it makes conventional cars feel old and last century. 

The car I own was purchased new in 2014, a Holden VF SS-V Ute. I love it and will never sell it, but I find myself wanting to drive the Tesla. No need to apply the brakes, no gear changes, no need for petrol stations, refueling is just a matter of plugging in at home. 

If other vehicle manufactures start building EV's similar to what Tesla has achieved, the automotive industry will shrink by a massive amount. It will take time, 2ith the affects starting in about 20 years. There will be less maintenance required and less spare parts.

I signed up for a free EV charging station trial, AGL come and install a home charge station at home for free. It is connected to the internet and allows AGL to monitor and stager charging times during the day or night, so that when EV's become m stream there will not be an overload on the grid when everyone comes home and plugs in.

Due to the short time we have had the M3 and the COVID issues, we haven't really had a proper chance to test it out. On the first weekend we had it we drove it to a country town about 1.5 hours out from the city on a cold and wet night with just over half charge. I knew that we'd struggle to get home but I also knew that there were charging station near the town. We had our dinner, topped up the charge with a 30 minute pit stop and got home safely.

I took a chance on TESLA shares about 2 years ago, it took me over a year to buy because I could not believe the hype but I haven't looked back since.

We live in exciting times.


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I am involved with the automotive industry, and have been interested in EV's for quite some time. I looked at purchasing about 3 years ago but nothing took my fancy, except for the Tesla but the price for new and second hand was more than I was willing to pay. Until recently.
> 
> My wife and I first took one for a test drive in January, we were both blown away, and I ordered one a few months later. I took delivery of a new Tesla M3 LR about 5 weeks ago and it is my wife's daily drive. Every time I drive it I feel that I'm in a vehicle of the future, it makes conventional cars feel old and last century.
> 
> ...



Hello @JohnDe , welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy your time here, as you can see by the number of your post #3,795 the thread has been running for some time, it started in 2011.
There are many members on the forum interested in BEV's and some own them, so there it is always great to get new input.
I hope chose to participate in many of the threads you find interesting, new ideas are always welcomed on ASF.

We have discussed the AGL BEV trail before, maybe you could explain the conditions attached to the free installation, do you have to grant them access to your car battery during peak periods e.g 6pm to 9pm etc.


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

UPDATE 1-Fire breaks out in Tesla Megapack unit in Australia during testing​








						UPDATE 1-Fire breaks out in Tesla Megapack unit in Australia during testing
					

A fire broke out in a Tesla Inc Megapack battery unit in Australia on Friday during testing of one of the world's biggest energy storage projects, run by France's Neoen SA, fire authorities said.  The fire erupted during an initial trial of the high-profile energy project known as the Victorian...




					au.finance.yahoo.com


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## Smurf1976 (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> EVs are NOT new technology , new technology has been used on EVs



Electric cars as such have been around longer than any of us have been alive. Some of the earliest cars built were electric.

Hybrids aren't as new as most probably think either. Briggs & Stratton, a company better known for small engines used in lawnmowers and so on, built one more than 40 years ago. It's imperfect but proved the concept could work. Video featuring it is here: 

As for charging EV's well I've posted figures previously about that. In short it's very doable so long as it's managed. If everyone just plugs them in and starts charging when they get home late afternoon or early evening well then that's a massive problem yes. Manage the charging though, to spread the load over time, and it's very doable.

As an order of magnitude well a 100% electric vehicle fleet for South Australia would use about the same amount of energy, on average, as the two largest factories in Tasmania and less than the largest single factory in Queensland for example. Or in other words it's roughly a 30% increase in electrical energy consumed in SA - that's very doable and quite cheaply so long as it's not adding significantly to the peaks. So long as it's done smartly and not just by dumping load on the system well then it's not a huge problem. The key is ensuring that approach is the one actually used - that's where any failure will occur, failing to actually do it, but that'll be a human failing not a technical one as such.


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> As for charging EV's well I've posted figures previously about that. In short it's very doable so long as it's managed. If everyone just plugs them in and starts charging when they get home late afternoon or early evening well then that's a massive problem yes. Manage the charging though, to spread the load over time, and it's very doable.
> 
> As an order of magnitude well a 100% electric vehicle fleet for South Australia would use about the same amount of energy, on average, as the two largest factories in Tasmania and less than the largest single factory in Queensland for example. Or in other words it's roughly a 30% increase in electrical energy consumed in SA - that's very doable and quite cheaply so long as it's not adding significantly to the peaks. So long as it's done smartly and not just by dumping load on the system well then it's not a huge problem. The key is ensuring that approach is the one actually used - that's where any failure will occur, failing to actually do it, but that'll be a human failing not a technical one as such.



Which basically goes back to what we have been saying, get the charging technology right, before you get too far ahead of yourself with the uptake.
A bit like building a city in the middle of the desert, then trying to working out where you are going to get your water from.


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

Overview of early electric cars (1895-1925)​








						Overview of early electric cars (1895-1925)
					

One hundred years ago electric cars were a common sight on city streets in Europe and the United States. Many of them had a range comparable to that of today's EV's. Below is an overview of early electrics and their specifications, put together from sales catalogs and books. 1907 Catalog...



					www.lowtechmagazine.com
				




 the ability to go extended distances  with short gaps for refuelling  would have swung some buyers towards petrol and diesel


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## Value Collector (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Which basically goes back to what we have been saying, get the charging technology right, before you get too far ahead of yourself with the uptake.
> A bit like building a city in the middle of the desert, then trying to working out where you are going to get your water from.



Uptake will be so gradual, and the charging technology so easy, I can't see there being any issues.


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## Value Collector (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> Overview of early electric cars (1895-1925)​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not to mention that the Electric light bulb had just destroyed the oil industries main business at the time which was Kerosine for lamps, So the Oil industry was looking for an alternative business to enter to save their selves, pushing combustion engines vehicles was their way of saving them selves.

This video tells the story of how the electric light bulb nearly killed the oil industry, but cars pulled it back from the edge of ruin.


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> Overview of early electric cars (1895-1925)​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes we talked about this a long time ago in the thread, the electric car was actually out before the petrol car, but energy density came into play and petrol won out.
However the difference today is technology, energy density is still an issue with BEV's, but electrical infrastructure, I.T technology, cheap air travel, rail & public transport plus climate change are now outweighing the need for personal transport to be able to cover long distances.
It is still a big issue in Australia, but not so in most Western Countries, the benefit Australia has is they can ride the shirt tails of other countries that are more suited to BEV's and are therefore accelerating the uptake.


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

well without the incessant thirst  for petrol ( and diesel oil  , bio-fuels were already known and used ) where would be now 

 ***  I hope we never lose sight of one thing, It all started from delivering newspapers as a child. ***

 newspapers were my third gig  , letterbox delivery and lawn-mowing came first for me


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Uptake will be so gradual, and the charging technology so easy, I can't see there being any issues.



Agree completely, what people have to understand is it isn't as easy as saying charge during the day or in the middle of the night.
If we are going to shut down fossil fueled generation, the renewable solar generation during the day, is charging the batteries that run the grid overnight, so it is a simple equation you can't charge the cars during the day and the batteries to run the grid during the day, without twice as much renewables.
The same equation works overnight, if you want to charge the BEV's overnight without fossil fuel, you have to use the grid batteries you charged during the day, if they were charging BEV's during the day, the grid batteries would be flat overnight.
So in reality it takes a lot of renewables and a lot of storage and a lot of clever engineering to make it all work together, this is what the fanatics are having trouble grasping.
As @Smurf1976 says, it can be done, but it will have to be technology driven, not emotionally or politically driven.


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> ***  I hope we never lose sight of one thing, It all started from delivering newspapers as a child. ***
> 
> newspapers were my third gig  , letterbox delivery and lawn-mowing came first for me



I came from poor beginnings, I delivered papers from a pushbike in bloody cold weather at 5am in the morning, then caught the school bus at 7am, after 6 months of doing it I asked my mum for the money I'd saved, she said sorry son we had to use it for groceries. lol I was 12 years old. Times were tough in the mid 1960's


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes we talked about this a long time ago in the thread, the electric car was actually out before the petrol car, but energy density came into play and petrol won out.
> However the difference today is technology, energy density is still an issue with BEV's, but electrical infrastructure, I.T technology, cheap air travel, rail & public transport plus climate change are now outweighing the need for personal transport to be able to cover long distances.
> It is still a big issue in Australia, but not so in most Western Countries, the benefit Australia has is they can ride the shirt tails of other countries that are more suited to BEV's and are therefore accelerating the uptake.



 not a HUGE issue in Australia though  , many vehicles  rarely travel more than 100 km a day  ,    a sensible society  would keep all efficient types ( in Australia )  we already have several grades of petrol and diesel , and gas   ,  and battery recharges COULD happen at home or work ( or maybe become a feature at motels  )

 i don't know if  Brisbane public transport has improved much  , but they were rarely  useful  for work duties , unreliable , never stop particularly close to where you needed to be ( even when changing buses/trains ) jogging or cycling was a much better option ( for me )

 we USED to have ( electric ) trolley buses and trams  , i believe Melbourne and Canberra still have trams  so we are NOT re-inventing the wheel  , but we might have to face the reality QLD will never be 100% BEV  but above 50% is surely possible 

 it really doesn't have to be all or nothing in Australia  , 100% BEV in  Holland , Singapore or Hong Kong  yes a pretty good chance


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> not a HUGE issue in Australia though  , many vehicles  rarely travel more than 100 km a day  ,    a sensible society  would keep all efficient types ( in Australia )  we already have several grades of petrol and diesel , and gas   ,  and battery recharges COULD happen at home or work ( or maybe become a feature at motels  )
> 
> i don't know if  Brisbane public transport has improved much  , but they were rarely  useful  for work duties , unreliable , never stop particularly close to where you needed to be ( even when changing buses/trains ) jogging or cycling was a much better option ( for me )
> 
> ...



That is all very true, but our society relies on electricity far beyond what people realise, if the system crashes sewage pumping crashes, suburb dewatering pumps stop, traffic lights stop, emergency services stop, pressurised water at your toilet and taps stops, petrol pumps stop, actually most things run on electricity so most things stop .
So it isn't about BEV's really, it is about having a reliable electrical supply system, if that fails society fails probably three days later.


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I came from poor beginnings, I delivered papers from a pushbike in bloody cold weather at 5am in the morning, then caught the school bus at 7am, after 6 months of doing it I asked my mum for the money I'd saved, she said sorry son we had to use it for groceries. lol I was 12 years old. Times were tough in the mid 1960's



 ditto .. but my parents never had any idea what money i was making ( i didn't trust the banks even back then )

 on the flipside it gave me a great insight into human nature and business  , and my parents we incredibly annoyed when i bought the first bike out of my own savings BEFORE the paper run ( turns out it would have been half my dad's weekly wage ,  made from the leaflet run and mowing business they never knew i had )


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is all very true, but our society relies on electricity far beyond what people realise, if the system crashes sewage pumping crashes, suburb dewatering pumps stop, traffic lights stop, emergency services stop, pressurised water at your toilet and taps stops, petrol pumps stop, actually most things run on electricity so most things stop .
> So it isn't about BEV's really, it is about having a reliable electrical supply system, if that fails society fails probably three days later.



 but , but  we could have solar  doing the bulk of the recharging work  say solar arrays  covering the employee parking ( with battery storage of course , for those days that are stormy 

  car recharging OFF-grid  would be a natural precaution .. but then commonsense isn't all that common 

 and we have more than 100 years to have sorted our these problems ( but haven't ) we would rather build space stations instead of more efficient electric motors and batteries


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> but , but  we could have solar  doing the bulk of the recharging work  say solar arrays  covering the employee parking ( with battery storage of course , for those days that are stormy
> 
> car recharging OFF-grid  would be a natural precaution .. but then commonsense isn't all that common
> 
> and we have more than 100 years to have sorted our these problems ( but haven't ) we would rather build space stations instead of more efficient electric motors and batteries



Very true but if we have overpopulated and stuffed this planet, there is every chance we are trying to find somewhere else to go, that's human nature. 🤣 
The problem with solar arrays is energy production not cost, the problem with batteries is energy density not availability, electric motors are very efficient if they are sized correctly, that is why we have them in most applications.


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## Value Collector (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Agree completely, what people have to understand is it isn't as easy as saying charge during the day or in the middle of the night.
> If we are going to shut down fossil fueled generation, the renewable solar generation during the day, is charging the batteries that run the grid overnight, so it is a simple equation you can't charge the cars during the day and the batteries to run the grid during the day, without twice as much renewables.
> The same equation works overnight, if you want to charge the BEV's overnight without fossil fuel, you have to use the grid batteries you charged during the day, if they were charging BEV's during the day, the grid batteries would be flat overnight.
> So in reality it takes a lot of renewables and a lot of storage and a lot of clever engineering to make it all work together, this is what the fanatics are having trouble grasping.
> As @Smurf1976 says, it can be done, but it will have to be technology driven, not emotionally or politically driven.



Wind and Hydro work over night.

check out this link, it shows how much of each power source we are using updated every 5 minutes, you we regularly produce a lot of wind power through out nights.









						Live Australian Electricity Generation Source Statistics
					

Live Australian Electricity Generation Statistics: See the amount of electricity being generated in Australia & its source: e.g. wind energy & solar power




					www.energymatters.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> ***  I hope we never lose sight of one thing, It all started from delivering newspapers as a child. ***
> 
> newspapers were my third gig  , letterbox delivery and lawn-mowing came first for me




My investment portfolio started with funds earned delivering papers, so I modified one of my favourite Walt Disney Qoutes.


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Wind and Hydro work over night.
> 
> check out this link, it shows how much of each power source we are using updated every 5 minutes, you we regularly produce a lot of wind power through out nights.
> 
> ...



Hydro is* storage*, wind on the East coast usually is low, when solar generation is low, but nice pick up. 
Check out @Smurf1976 reports on solar wind generation norms.
Goes back to the technical analysis, rather than the emotional, which you generally lean toward the technical.


----------



## Value Collector (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Hydro is storage, wind on the East coast usually is low, when solar generation is low, but nice pick up.
> Check out @Smurf1976 reports on solar wind generation norms.



hydro isn’t just storage, it is primary generation mostly.

Did you check out the wind energy being produced right now, its a fairly decent chunk and that will probably be humming right through the night.

Gas can also fill in the gaps, and coal will be there for a fair while to.

As I have said before, replacing petrol will a mixture of coal, hydro, wind and solar is much better than using the petrol which is basically 100% fossil fuels.


----------



## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Did you check out the wind energy being produced right now, its a fairly decent chunk and that will probably be humming right through the night.
> 
> Gas can also fill in the gaps, and coal will be there for a fair while to.
> 
> As I have said before, replacing petrol will a mixture of coal, hydro, wind and solar is much better than using the petrol which is basically 100% fossil fuels.



Now you are moving the goal posts, one minute you are talking renewables and BEV's, now you are back filling with gas and coal, for gods sake don't go all rederob on me.
FFS you can't say a really good night is the norm, or a really bad night is the norm, people need electricity not warm feel good $hit. OMG
Imagine if FMG said we are going to invest $25billion into BEV's in Australia, it will cost the shareholders their shirt, but it is great for the country and the world in general. You would say WTF.
I mean put your feet on the ground and think of it as an investment, because if it isn't, either the tax payer fails or the plan fails, stop putting your love of the car in front of your power of reasoning.
I'll tell you how silly some of it is, my wife and I bought segway ninebot ES2 scooters three years ago, we bought extender range batteries for them, now three years later.
I sold mine a year ago and bought a ninebot max from Melbourne, but the wife's has had a problem the main battery wont take a charge, so easy buy another?
Not so easy no one makes the module so it will be up to me, but the main take take from this is they use 20 off 18650 lithium battery cells.
Your Tesla uses 16,444 of them. 🤣
the good thing is I'm a sparky and will fix it.


----------



## Value Collector (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Now you are moving the goal posts, one minute you are talking renewables and BEV's, now you are back filling with gas and coal, for gods sake don't go all rederob on me.
> FFS you can't say a really good night is the norm, or a really bad night is the norm, people need electricity not warm feel good $hit. OMG



I don’t think I have ever claimed Australia would be 100% renewables any time soon, and I certainly haven’t claimed that electric cars required 100% renewables for them to be a valid alternative to petrol and diesel.

In fact I have said repeatedly “Never let perfect be the enemy of good”, what I mean by that is that even though we use coal and Gas on the grid, it isn’t a reason to avoid BEVs.

——————————-
I have said that my personal car is almost 100% solar powered, which is true. but I haven’t claimed that the whole vehicle fleet will be carbon neutral, I don’t think it needs to be carbon neutral from day one, it just needs to less carbon intensive than the petrol and diesel, which it would be.


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## Value Collector (30 July 2021)

Also it’s not just one night, Victoria and south Australia regularly produce large amounts of wind power through the night and when they don’t NSW and TAS often open up the taps on their hydro.

and the trend is for Wind , solar and batteries to keep growing.

as I said I don’t see an issue.


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

well CCE is still floundering around with wave technology ( i hold CCE )  and Australia has plenty on coastline , and over half the population lives  not that far from a coast  

 am not saying it is the answer  but we have some tech ( home-grown ) that could be developed further 

 also Australia doesn't seem  to believe much in geo-thermal  , maybe we are missing something there ( especially in the inland )


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Also it’s not just one night, Victoria and south Australia regularly produce large amounts of wind power through the night and when they don’t NSW and TAS often open up the taps on their hydro.
> 
> and the trend is for Wind , solar and batteries to keep growing.
> 
> as I said I don’t see an issue.



 the issue will probably arise when one poor fool ( politician) mandates  , instead of cost efficiency being persuasive  , and the change will be progressive


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> well CCE is still floundering around with wave technology ( i hold CCE )  and Australia has plenty on coastline , and over half the population lives  not that far from a coast
> 
> am not saying it is the answer  but we have some tech ( home-grown ) that could be developed further
> 
> also Australia doesn't seem  to believe much in geo-thermal  , maybe we are missing something there ( especially in the inland )



Yes read up on the world leaders, https://www.carnegiece.com/, do your own research 

The biggest problem that those who are not of an electrical or power generation background is, the amount of grunt needed to supply the electrical load, in some ways it is like talking to children about money.


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## Value Collector (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Now you are moving the goal posts, one minute you are talking renewables and BEV's, now you are back filling with gas and coal, for gods sake don't go all rederob on me.
> FFS you can't say a really good night is the norm, or a really bad night is the norm, people need electricity not warm feel good $hit. OMG
> Imagine if FMG said we are going to invest $25billion into BEV's in Australia, it will cost the shareholders their shirt, but it is great for the country and the world in general. You would say WTF.
> I mean put your feet on the ground and think of it as an investment, because if it isn't, either the tax payer fails or the plan fails, stop putting your love of the car in front of your power of reasoning.
> ...



I am invested in charging EV’s.

I own a bunch of APA shares, I quite like the fact that a growing number of EV’s will be increasing the demand for Electricity over the next 20 years at the same time as coal plants shutter their doors, because it will do the following.

1, increase demand for APA owned electricity Transmission lines, as solar power is sent south during the day and wind and hydro sent north at night.

2, it increases demand for APA owned solar, Wind and batteries and also creates opportunities for them to make further investments.

3, Gas power to fill in the gaps will increase utilisation of APA’s Gas pipelines, Gas storage and gas power plants.

There is plenty of patient capital waiting to invest in increasing renewables as demand grows, but it will only be deployed as contracts get signed, which will happen incrementally over time, there is no rush.


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I am invested in charging EV’s.
> 
> I own a bunch of APA shares, I quite like the fact that a growing number of EV’s will be increasing the demand for Electricity over the next 20 years at the same time as coal plants shutter their doors, because it will do the following.
> 
> ...



That's nice.  
It doesn't mean you know what you are talking about, when it comes to power generation and the grid in general, it just means you see an investment opportunity and are acting on it.


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

but we have  ways of taking  little stuff off  the peak loads  , for the heavy lifting nuclear is an  option  especially since now Russia makes and sells the 'mini-nuke' power plants  , which i suspect  don't need to be next to an ocean 
 you can bet we will find new ways to use electricity for centuries to come  , so maybe we should decentralize  those smaller predictable demand cycles ( take the load off the grid as well )

 ( BTW i am deeply underwater on CCE  ,  if CCE is the world leader   they had better leave room for others to pass )

but depending on who scoops up CCE  , it might be important technology in the future


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I am invested in charging EV’s.
> 
> I own a bunch of APA shares, I quite like the fact that a growing number of EV’s will be increasing the demand for Electricity over the next 20 years at the same time as coal plants shutter their doors, because it will do the following.
> 
> 1, increase demand for APA owned electricity Transmission lines, as solar power is sent south during the day and wind and hydro sent north at night.



That is a good point, but I would have thought the main benefit would be, sending power west to east as the sun sets. 
low consumption high solar generation in SA, to high consumption in NSW.


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

i still see SOME need for coal , gas , oil  and uranium in the future  but maybe only where they have a clear advantage over other sources of energy


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## divs4ever (30 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is a good point, but I would have thought the main benefit would be, sending power west to east as the sun sets.



 and vice versa as the sun rises , i assume 

 boy that is asking a lot of the transmission lines  
lines lose efficiency  as they become longer   and the South East corner of Australia  sucks up a huge amount of energy 

 am not saying that is a bad idea  , just one where the underlying technology needs to improve


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> but we have  ways of taking  little stuff off  the peak loads  , for the heavy lifting nuclear is an  option



My personal belief is eventually SMR nuclear will be the go.
To replace fossil fuel with clean energy, requires replacing fossil fuel with something of similar energy density, the only thing we know of at the moment is hydrogen.
But to produce hydrogen is energy intensive, so you get nothing for nothing, the only energy source we have that is clean and can produce enough energy to make hydrogen  to make it viable is nuclear.
So next question how do you make it viable? you run it 24/7 flat chat, when the renewables kick in the nuclear generation makes hydrogen, when the renewables fade, the nuclear supplies the load.
To me it is the obvious answer at this time, but hey things change, who knows.


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## sptrawler (30 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> and vice versa as the sun rises , i assume
> 
> boy that is asking a lot of the transmission lines
> lines lose efficiency  as they become longer   and the South East corner of Australia  sucks up a huge amount of energy
> ...











						Aussie families to save $100 on power bills
					

More reliable and cheaper electricity has been promised to South Australian and NSW residents after an interstate interconnector – first promised 20 years ago – was finally given the green light.




					www.news.com.au
				



From the article:
_The project, dubbed EnergyConnect, is expected to reduce business and household power bills by up to $100 per year in SA and $66 per year in NSW.

High voltage transmission company Electranet has made its final investment decision to build the SA section of the $2.3bn interconnector linked to NSW._



We have talked a lot about this in the thread 'future of energy generation and storage', one thing for sure, don't believe the media when they say nothing is happening. 
The media today works on the mushroom theory IMO, the problem is most suck it up. 🤣

By the way on a side note, long transmission lines, which are lightly loaded actually gain volts, so static VAR reactors have to put in place to drop the voltage, the transmission lines work as capacitors. 
Just a point of interest, power transmission is a complex issue, it actually is a specific area of engineering.


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## divs4ever (31 July 2021)

UPDATE 1-Fire breaks out in Tesla Megapack unit in Australia during testing​
https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/1-fire-breaks-tesla-megapack-071423348.html


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 July 2021)

In the context of EV's the charging issues are simple at a conceptual level, extremely complex when it comes to the fine detail of actually doing it.

In short:

1. Don't overload the network. Charging during the existing peak is a bad idea period unless it happens to be a nice mild day with consequent lower peak demand.

2. It's far cheaper and more efficient to use the wind and sun when it blows and shines rather than running that through storage (of whatever form) with its associated energy losses, operating costs and large upfront cost.

3. To the extent we still have fossil fuel plant, and that's going to be a while yet, a consistent load most definitely beats a peaky load in every way.

From both an economic and technical perspective, if you want a single measure well then load factor is a pretty decent one. Load factor being average load as a % of peak load.

In SA it's barely over 40% and in Victoria it just reaches 50%, NSW is mid-50's, south-west WA just under 60%, meanwhile Queensland and Tasmania have both consistently reached 70%+ for decades.

It thus comes as no surprise to find that Queensland and Tasmania are the strong states in the National Electricity Market from a technical perspective and are the two states with a major heavy industrial load presence along with WA that isn't part of the NEM.

EV's could lift the load factor in SA into the high 50's % if they totally replaced ICE vehicles and no charging is done during the peaks, a very worthwhile improvement. With potential load growth in other areas on top, ultimately getting it up to ~70% seems doable in due course. 

Overall the whole issue is somewhat like saying you want to move a thousand pieces of farm machinery. They'll need to be driven under their own power which isn't a problem but one thing most certainly _is_ a problem - the route unavoidably goes via suburban area and will move at no more than 10km/h on a major highway. Not a problem if you do it in the middle of the night on Sunday but an outright disaster if you try and do it a few hours later at 8am on Monday morning.

If you're going to take up a big chunk of network capacity, be that roads or power, well then doing it when existing uses are minimal is relatively painless. Do it during the peaks though and, well, whoever authorised that will be in rather a lot of trouble....

Overall we can not only supply sufficient electricity to charge EV's but it actually benefits the system by doing so. It adds load at times where there's presently a lack of it and brings greater utilisation of assets. The key though is doing it with a clever approach.


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## Smurf1976 (31 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> lines lose efficiency as they become longer



They do but they're still fairly efficient as such.

Some data for right now (well, a few minutes ago):

Queensland > NSW = 95 MW on the two AC + 1 DC line. Total losses under 1 MW.

Tasmania > Victoria = 199 MW on the single DC line. Total losses 3 MW.

Victoria > SA = 455 MW transferred on the two AC + 1 DC line. Total losses = 31 MW.

Victoria > NSW = 497 MW on multiple AC lines. Total losses = 21 MW.

That's a current snapshot, those figures are current actual not the limits. Under different circumstances losses will be different but overall it's fairly low in % terms especially at moderate loads.

Distribution network losses, that is distribution as distinct from transmission, vary hugely with loading and location so there's no single answer. If anyone asked me to put a single figure on it though well 10% from power station to household, so including transmission losses and distribution, will be order of magnitude correct for the majority of customers with typical usage patterns. Somewhat higher if you're in the middle of nowhere but of that order for the majority.


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## divs4ever (31 July 2021)

but Perth to Adelaide ?? ( and vice versa ) ( or where it is really needed Melbourne and Sydney  )

 sounds like a good idea , but we have several  incidences  where bush/grass fires  have brought down interstate power lines 

 so say Perth to the ( WA ) Goldfields  , okay maybe  but the extra step across to Adelaide  , gee you would have to crunch those numbers  very carefully  , it might be cheaper to erect a few more wind turbines


----------



## rederob (31 July 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Overall we can not only supply sufficient electricity to charge EV's but it actually benefits the system by doing so. It adds load at times where there's presently a lack of it and brings greater utilisation of assets. The key though is doing it with a clever approach.



One of the best explanations you could read in that post.
Thanks @Smurf1976.


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## over9k (31 July 2021)

Perth is the most isolated city in the world. Running cross-country power to there would be madness. 

Australia would make a rather nice solar panel if not for the fact that there's so much coal & uranium making them completely uneconomical.


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## divs4ever (31 July 2021)

BUT of the cities in the Australian south ( including Brisbane ) it has the best climate for reliable energy production ( i suggest both solar and wind ) ... and if CCE ever get a commercial product ... )

 well solar and wind do not have to STAY uneconomical  the tech can always be improved  we have had windmills in Australia for near 200 years  so the concept isn't new 

 here we are  having space academies  but we can't make a decent wind turbine  ( where logistics costs are pivotal )


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## Value Collector (31 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's nice.
> It doesn't mean you know what you are talking about, when it comes to power generation and the grid in general, it just means you see an investment opportunity and are acting on it.



I know enough to know the wind blows at night.

Have have been tracking the output of the east coast states, wind solar and gas generation for months, and tracking the flow, almost as an obsession to help me understand That part of APA’s business.

trust me I wish you were right and the wind didn’t blow at night, APA would be moving a lot more gas then.


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## Value Collector (31 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is a good point, but I would have thought the main benefit would be, sending power west to east as the sun sets.
> low consumption high solar generation in SA, to high consumption in NSW.



SA exports and imports a lot mainly lead by wind, when the wind blows they export, when it slows down they import.

APA does own a transmission line connecting SA to Vic, at the moment SA is importing slightly from Vic, and Vic is importing from NSW and Tas (both who are producing some wind.


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## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> APA does own a transmission line connecting SA to Vic, at the moment SA is importing slightly from Vic, and Vic is importing from NSW and Tas (both who are producing some wind.



It will be interesting to see if the proposed SA-NSW ElectraNet interconnector, has any effect on revenues.








						Final approval for SA-NSW power line
					

SA transmission company ElectraNet has given a final commitment of funds to build an electricity interconnector with NSW.




					thewest.com.au
				



By the way I wasn't having a go at you, I was only alluding to the fact that the Grid is a very technical and complex beast and has to be seen as a whole not as a bunch of parts.
That is where a lot of these renewable solar farm/wind farms, that were built in the Mildura area stuffed up.
If you are a transmission engineer, well I defer to your knowledge. I only thought you were a very astute investor, my apologies if I offended, it wasn't intended.


----------



## Value Collector (31 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> but Perth to Adelaide ?? ( and vice versa ) ( or where it is really needed Melbourne and Sydney  )
> 
> sounds like a good idea , but we have several  incidences  where bush/grass fires  have brought down interstate power lines
> 
> so say Perth to the ( WA ) Goldfields  , okay maybe  but the extra step across to Adelaide  , gee you would have to crunch those numbers  very carefully  , it might be cheaper to erect a few more wind turbines



Qld, NSW, Vic, SA and Tas are already all connected and operate as a single market, Electricity (up to the capacity of the inter connectors) already moves between the states.

on a sunny day though QLD is normally exporting at its limits, on a windy night Vic and SA will be exporting at their limits, Tasmania seems to be regularly exporting also I guess unless they start running low on water.


----------



## Value Collector (31 July 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It will be interesting to see if the proposed SA-NSW ElectraNet interconnector, has any effect on revenues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That seems smart, it might even mean more renewable projects could go ahead in regional NSW along that transmission line route.


----------



## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> That seems smart, it might even mean more renewable projects could go ahead in regional NSW along that transmission line route.



Which is exactly why it is being built.


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## divs4ever (31 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Qld, NSW, Vic, SA and Tas are already all connected and operate as a single market, Electricity (up to the capacity of the inter connectors) already moves between the states.
> 
> on a sunny day though QLD is normally exporting at its limits, on a windy night Vic and SA will be exporting at their limits, Tasmania seems to be regularly exporting also I guess unless they start running low on water.



now i don't follow the mainstream news much in the last 4 years  , but i don't remember many power outages in Perth  ( compared to nearby city Brisbane )

 so the East Coast ( including SA ) is hunky dory ,  until there are floods , fires , plants breaking done and power lines  falling down in the wind ( or a transformer blows up  )

 as a participant in that single  market , i would rather park my cash in NZ power companies  , maybe it is because the grid is less complex


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## Smurf1976 (31 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> but Perth to Adelaide ?? ( and vice versa ) ( or where it is really needed Melbourne and Sydney )



From a technical perspective it could be done.

The economics however would be pretty terrible and that has stopped any real consideration of the idea historically. Poor economics since firstly it would cost a fortune to build such a line, second it'll have very substantial losses.

Never say never though. The idea's been around and at some future time it might possibly stack up financially to do it. Just as most of the other interstate links were around as an idea a very long time before they were built.

Eg Victoria - Tasmania was first investigated in the 1930's, finally built in 2006 but prior to that it simply didn't stack up economically.

For a brief history of power transmission in Australia:

1916 - Waddamana power station to Hobart 88kV line commenced operation. That marks the beginning of the power grid as we know it in Australia today, being the first proper transmission line built anywhere in Australia.

Original film from 1916 of the official opening of the power station and associated works is here: 

No sound there - movie cameras with sound hadn't been invented yet.

1919 - Waddamana to Launceston line in service, connecting the existing Launceston power scheme to the Waddamana scheme, thus creating an actual grid of sorts with two power stations supplying it.

1922 - By this point Tasmania had a transmission system which facilitated distribution to most of the state's population. The Waddamana power station was now 7 times its original 1916 size and transmission extended to the south, north, north-east and north-west with the distribution network rapidly being built to connect homes and businesses.

1924 - Yallourn 'A' Power power station and the associated Yallourn to Melbourne transmission line operating at 132kV opened.  Since Melbourne had 3 existing power stations in the urban area, including one in the actual CBD itself, this was a grid from day one.

Victoria then rapidly proceeded to build new lines and electrify the state as Tasmania had done. The other states didn't really do it until many years later however.

Major milestones in transmission:

1916 - 88kV transmission in Tasmania

1924 - 132kV transmission in Victoria

1938 - 110kV transmission in Tasmania

1942 - 132kV transmission in NSW

1946 - 110kV transmission in Queensland

1953 - 132kV transmission in Queensland

1954 - 132kV transmission in SA

1956 - 220kV transmission in Victoria.

1957 - 220kV transmission in Tasmania. 132kV transmission in WA.

1959 - 330kV transmission in NSW and Victoria. First interconnection of the NSW and Victorian systems via the Snowy lines.

1960 - 275 kV transmission in SA

1970 - 500kV transmission in Victoria.

1975 - 330kV transmission in WA. 275kV transmission in Queensland.

1984 - 500kV transmission in NSW

1987 - 132kV transmission in NT

1990 - First interconnection of SA and Victoria with 2 x AC lines.

2000 - First interconnection of Queensland and NSW via single DC line.

2001 - Additional interconnection of Queensland and NSW via 2 x AC lines.

2002 - Additional interconnection of SA and Victoria via new single DC line.

2006 - First interconnection of Tasmania and Victoria via new single DC line operating at 400kV. Was the longest undersea HVDC line in the world when built (has since been surpassed overseas).

2007 - Closure of the last part of the original 88kV transmission system in Tasmania.

Coming soon:

SA - NSW first direct interconnection between the two states with 2 x AC lines. Known as Project EnergyConnect. Capacity 850 MW.

Victoria - NSW ("VNI Minor") basically pushes a bit more through the existing lines. Adds 170 MW.

Proposed interstate links:

Tasmania - Victoria with 2 new HVDC undersea cables rated at 750 MW each, known as Marinus Link 1 & 2. Indicative timing late 2020's for the first one, 2030's for the second.

Victoria - NSW with new AC lines to be built.

Queensland - Mt Isa. Not interstate but it connects the presently separate Mt Isa and surrounding areas power system to the NEM via a new AC line known as CopperString 2.0

All that said, and bearing in mind the subject here is EV's not power transmission, not even "electric" Smurf would argue that building transmission lines enhances the environment. There's the odd random bit of electrical infrastructure that captures the attention of tourists and amateur photographers (notably Tarraleah (Tas) and Tumut 3 (NSW) power stations) but in general that's true in my view.

I'd argue that transmission lines, wind, solar and even more controversial things such as large scale hydro developments are less bad than fossil fuels, since their impact ultimately is reversible eventually, but they still don't improve upon nature. As I've said countless times over many years "All Power Pollutes" because it does. The detail and scale of impact varies but it all impacts something somehow and done on a large enough scale that becomes all too apparent indeed it's scale that tends to highlight the problems and which lies at the heart of conflicts involving environmental issues.

That being so, well my argument is that sure we could dot the landscape with transmission lines and so on but that's not an objective in itself. If we can instead charge EV's in a "smart" manner, maximising use of existing infrastructure rather than pushing peak demand right up, then that makes a lot of sense both economically and environmentally. We can't have no impact with present technology but with a sensible approach we can get more out of the infrastructure, we can reduce the amount that needs to be built if better use is made of it. EV's, since it doesn't really matter what time they're charged so long as they are, are an obvious candidate for doing that.

The biggest problem with all this energy stuff though isn't engineering, environment or economics. Rather, it's the religious-like approach many take to it.

It's an unfortunate reality that many have very "rusted on" positions and ideas that simply aren't backed by anything factual. That goes for all sides from those who are rusted on to ICE vehicles through to those who start preparing signs and a megaphone the moment someone even hints at building a transmission line or, heaven forbid, a dam.

My view is firmly that a rational, scientific approach is the right way.

There are circumstances where EV's are problematic but many others where they're workable.

There are locations where transmission lines, wind farms, solar farms, hydro or whatever ought not be build on environmental grounds because there really is something endangered living there or it really is a unique landscape and so on. There are many other places however where there's nothing unique and that couldn't be restored fairly easily sometime down the track.

There's a need to continue with some fossil fuel use for the medium term at least but there's much that can be done, now, to start moving away from it fairly quickly.

And so on. Stick to the facts, look at each case and consider the options. Sometimes an EV is the best solution, sometimes petrol / diesel still wins. Sometimes there's a compelling case for conservation of nature because of what's there, other places putting an area of unremarkable land under water, running a transmission line across it or covering it with solar panels is a small price to pay so as to use less coal. Etc. Take a scientific approach not a "religious" one and the way forward becomes far clearer.


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## JohnDe (31 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Uptake will be so gradual, and the charging technology so easy, I can't see there being any issues.



The charging technology is good. Most owners of cars drive to work & back 79% of the time, all they need to do is charge at home; easy & cheap. The remainder of their driving is weekend trips & holidays, which is not a problem with a bit of easy planning.


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## sptrawler (31 July 2021)

JohnDe said:


> The charging technology is good. Most owners of cars drive to work & back 79% of the time, all they need to do is charge at home; easy & cheap. The remainder of their driving is weekend trips & holidays, which is not a problem with a bit of easy planning.



If only life was so easy.


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## Value Collector (31 July 2021)

divs4ever said:


> now i don't follow the mainstream news much in the last 4 years  , but i don't remember many power outages in Perth  ( compared to nearby city Brisbane )
> 
> so the East Coast ( including SA ) is hunky dory ,  until there are floods , fires , plants breaking done and power lines  falling down in the wind ( or a transformer blows up  )
> 
> as a participant in that single  market , i would rather park my cash in NZ power companies  , maybe it is because the grid is less complex



I have looked at NZ quite a bit too.


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## Value Collector (31 July 2021)

JohnDe said:


> The charging technology is good. Most owners of cars drive to work & back 79% of the time, all they need to do is charge at home; easy & cheap. The remainder of their driving is weekend trips & holidays, which is not a problem with a bit of easy planning.



Yep, I have had a Model 3 since 2019, been up and down the east coast multiple times, road trips are no problem.


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 July 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I have had a Model 3 since 2019, been up and down the east coast multiple times, road trips are no problem.



Ignoring the means of powering it, putting aside that it's electric, how do you rate it "as a car"?

Just curious really as to how it compares as a car, ignoring the fact that it's electrically powered so focusing on handling, ride comfort, overall vehicle practicality and so on?


----------



## qldfrog (31 July 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Ignoring the means of powering it, putting aside that it's electric, how do you rate it "as a car"?
> 
> Just curious really as to how it compares as a car, ignoring the fact that it's electrically powered so focusing on handling, ride comfort, overall vehicle practicality and so on?



and price wise , comparing apple to apple...not tesla vs micra  but tesla vs top end BMW


----------



## Smurf1976 (31 July 2021)

qldfrog said:


> top end BMW



Had a look at a BMW factory in Germany 4 years ago. Just the normal public tour that anyone can do (but a tip for anyone who does - you need to book in advance, can't just turn up randomly as it's rather popular and there are limited places available).

One thing they said which stuck in my mind was that larger petrol engines would be the first to go. The last ICE BMW's sold will be the cheapest and slowest basically. 

That was just part of what they said, it wasn't in response to anyone asking a specific question, so presumably it reflects the company's official view. Presumably the tour guide's commentary would be in line with what management's told them to say.


----------



## qldfrog (1 August 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Had a look at a BMW factory in Germany 4 years ago. Just the normal public tour that anyone can do (but a tip for anyone who does - you need to book in advance, can't just turn up randomly as it's rather popular and there are limited places available).
> 
> One thing they said which stuck in my mind was that larger petrol engines would be the first to go. The last ICE BMW's sold will be the cheapest and slowest basically.
> 
> That was just part of what they said, it wasn't in response to anyone asking a specific question, so presumably it reflects the company's official view. Presumably the tour guide's commentary would be in line with what management's told them to say.



By many ways, I see EV as the anti democratisation of transports, suits perfectly with the Davos Reset, less cars on the road, the plebs back in public transport requiring even less income  so the Kings of the universe can cruise freely with larger profits while we melt the old ice fleet into pig iron for more high density social housing.
You would imagine manufacturers rushing to build micro EV cars (a la Japan domestic market style, those cars you rarely see here :ICE but doing 4l/100km).
But nope, all the mini micro EV projects/models seems to die...
Either via economic or political will


----------



## qldfrog (1 August 2021)

qldfrog said:


> By many ways, I see EV as the anti democratisation of transports, suits perfectly with the Davos Reset, less cars on the road, the plebs back in public transport requiring even less income  so the Kings of the universe can cruise freely with larger profits while we melt the old ice fleet into pig iron for more high density social housing.
> You would imagine manufacturers rushing to build micro EV cars (a la Japan domestic market style, those cars you rarely see here :ICE but doing 4l/100km).
> But nope, all the mini micro EV projects/models seems to die...
> Either via economic or political will



Isn't it amazing how ill fitted EVs actually are to the US Australia non city living conditions/lifestyle?
And the solution proposed seems to be: change lifestyle,move back to high density cities..


----------



## divs4ever (1 August 2021)

well given  how well successive QLD government plan and build infrastructure  , inner-city ghettos are their best way of looking efficient 

 i am waiting for buildings to self-destruct like some are in Sydney ( isn't it amazing such disaster centres escape the news currently )


----------



## divs4ever (1 August 2021)

i was thinking BIG heavy gas guzzlers would be the last to go , because some need towing capacity as well as distance ( those with trailers/boats/caravans  )


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Ignoring the means of powering it, putting aside that it's electric, how do you rate it "as a car"?
> 
> Just curious really as to how it compares as a car, ignoring the fact that it's electrically powered so focusing on handling, ride comfort, overall vehicle practicality and so on?




Its definitely the best car I have ever driven, the only thing I would change in regards to the design of the model 3 is the size of the boot opening, but the Model Y fixes that.

I am not a car guy, so I have never really paid a lot of attention to cars before, but I certainly love the model 3.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i was thinking BIG heavy gas guzzlers would be the last to go , because some need towing capacity as well as distance ( those with trailers/boats/caravans  )



Electric Vehicles are more powerful than petrol and diesel cars, and are better suited for towing.

check out the Tesla Cyber truck, it has a range of 800km.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2021)

Tesla model X towing caravan.


----------



## divs4ever (1 August 2021)

time will tell 

 Musk is no Henry Ford 

 BESIDES the WEF predicts you will own NOTHING  

 why would you buy a depreciating asset if you believed that agenda will succeed ( wouldn't you be better leasing it )


----------



## sptrawler (1 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> time will tell
> 
> Musk is no Henry Ford
> 
> ...



I think that will be the way in the EV future, then the manufacturers wear the dead battery issue, rather than waste recyclers.


----------



## divs4ever (1 August 2021)

yes i see that battery recycling seems to have faded from investment themes 

 but more interesting will be the petro-chemicals used in the manufacture of a modern vehicle ( whether ICE or BEV )

 keep watching for advances in recycling


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> time will tell
> 
> Musk is no Henry Ford
> 
> ...



I am not sure what you are on about there.

You said that big gas guzzler cars would be the last to go because of towing, I was just saying that electrics are actually better suited to towing.

I am not sure what leasing vs owning has to do with it.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think that will be the way in the EV future, then the manufacturers wear the dead battery issue, rather than waste recyclers.



Tesla plans to recycle their own batteries.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> yes i see that battery recycling seems to have faded from investment themes
> 
> but more interesting will be the petro-chemicals used in the manufacture of a modern vehicle ( whether ICE or BEV )
> 
> keep watching for advances in recycling



Not really


----------



## divs4ever (1 August 2021)

well the affluent among my associates   have  moved  to heavy duty dual cab utes  , now whether that is because  of business related tax-concessions  ,  or the extra haulage ability ( all are equipped with towbars  and heavy duty winches  forward and aft )

 but i bet 90% of the week  a vehicle  of half that power  would be sufficient  

 just a trend i have noticed among those that could afford an EV or a new Roller relatively easily


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> well the affluent among my associates   have  moved  to heavy duty dual cab utes  , now whether that is because  of business related tax-concessions  ,  or the extra haulage ability ( all are equipped with towbars  and heavy duty winches  forward and aft )
> 
> but i bet 90% of the week  a vehicle  of half that power  would be sufficient
> 
> just a trend i have noticed among those that could afford an EV or a new Roller relatively easily



Sounds like the folks that would be super interested in Tesla’s Cyber truck when it becomes available in Australia.


----------



## divs4ever (1 August 2021)

one is in IT and the other an accountant  , apparently not    , 

 but time will tell


----------



## sptrawler (1 August 2021)

Ampol to get Gov funding for E.V charging at their petrol stations.








						Ampol to add EV fast chargers at 121 petrol stations around Australia
					

After getting $1 billion to keep its Australian oil refinery pumping, Ampol gets another grant to roll out EV chargers at its petrol stations.




					thedriven.io
				



From the article:
Petrol retailer and oil refiner Ampol is to install electric vehicle fast charging bays at more than 100 of its service stations around Australia, as part of a funding agreement with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency.

Ampol will receive $7.05 million of the $26.8 million awarded to five different groups to expand EV charging infrastructure, as promised under the federal government’s Future Fuels Strategy (FFS).

The recipients, which aslo include Evie Networks, Chargefox, Engie and Electric Highway Tasmania – will deliver a total of 403 new fast charging stations, each capable of charging at least two vehicles concurrently at 50kW or above.

Ampol says it will install renewable powered DC fast chargers (2 x 50kW bays to charge two cars at a time) at 121 of its petrol stations across Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth, and said it expected electric vehicles to “gradually displace internal combustion engines,” particularly in the light passenger fleet.

ARENA said the funding round would help deliver a seven-fold increase in the number of fast charging stations in Australia’s most populated cities and regions.

“Charging stations will be built across eight geographic regions covering 14 of Australia’s most populous cities,” the Agency said in a statement.

“In addition to networks in the capital cities in every state and territory, regional centres including Geelong, Newcastle, Wollongong and the Sunshine Coast will each receive a minimum of eight new fast charging stations to drive the uptake of EVs in regional locations.”
ARENA CEO Darren Miller said the proposals received for this round of Future Fuels funding were of such high quality, the agency was compelled to increase the size of the grants allocation.

“As the costs of electric vehicles come down, more consumers and fleet users are looking to go electric. Expanding the fast charging network will make it easier than ever to drive an EV in Australia.”

The Trevor St Baker-backed Evie Networks was the biggest winner from the funding round, awarded $8.85 million to deliver 158 fast charging stations across eight regions in Australia, with project partners Tritium and ActewAGL.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> well the affluent among my associates   have  moved  to heavy duty dual cab utes  , now whether that is because  of business related tax-concessions  ,  or the extra haulage ability ( all are equipped with towbars  and heavy duty winches  forward and aft )
> 
> but i bet 90% of the week  a vehicle  of half that power  would be sufficient
> 
> just a trend i have noticed among those that could afford an EV or a new Roller relatively easily



I just re read your post, and thought maybe you didn’t realise that the Tesla cyber truck is a dual cab Ute.


----------



## mullokintyre (1 August 2021)

I suspect that the  Lightning, aka Ford F150 EV, will be out in the world before the  Tesla Cyber truck. 
The Giga factory in  Texas  pictured below a few weeks ago, is still some way off being built.
The original dat for the cyber truck has already passed, and the most recent   estimates put its release at some time in 2022.


----------



## Value Collector (1 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I suspect that the  Lightning, aka Ford F150 EV, will be out in the world before the  Tesla Cyber truck.
> The Giga factory in  Texas  pictured below a few weeks ago, is still some way off being built.
> The original dat for the cyber truck has already passed, and the most recent   estimates put its release at some time in 2022.
> View attachment 128445



The factory is being built super fast, and they are already loading equipment into it, the earnings call the the other day was done from a confrence room inside it.

we will see what Ford can do next year I guess, but yeah Tesla’s factory is not that far away from completion.


----------



## Value Collector (2 August 2021)

Tesla has decided that it is going to open up its super charger network to other Brands of cars.

I think this should be a net positive, as more people use the network, it will obviously increase revenue the network generates and help fund the continued expansion of the network.


----------



## mullokintyre (2 August 2021)

Some time ago, I bought a 1980's sports car called an Embeesa Charger.
Its a fibreglass body kit car from UK that uses the floor pan and running gear from a standard 1965 to 1980 beetle.
Instead of rebuilding the engine, bringing it up to 1600 CC specs, putting new disc brakes and steering etc, 
I have decided to go with a company called Traction EV that provide a complete (although expensive) kit to use Tesla batteries and controllers to run an electric motor through the standard beetle clutch, gearbox and drivetrain.
It will have only about 150 kms of  range, but that should be enough for toy car.
Given that the car is about 2/3rds the weight of the original beetle, should go like the clappers though.
Should be interesting.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (2 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Some time ago, I bought a 1980's sports car called an Embeesa Charger.
> Its a fibreglass body kit car from UK that uses the floor pan and running gear from a standard 1965 to 1980 beetle.
> Instead of rebuilding the engine, bringing it up to 1600 CC specs, putting new disc brakes and steering etc,
> I have decided to go with a company called Traction EV that provide a complete (although expensive) kit to use Tesla batteries and controllers to run an electric motor through the standard beetle clutch, gearbox and drivetrain.
> ...



nice project, will try to do same with a buggy here on the farm.should be both fun and useful..when I can find time


----------



## mullokintyre (2 August 2021)

qldfrog said:


> nice project, will try to do same with a buggy here on the farm.should be both fun and useful..when I can find time



if you have a farm you will never have the time.
I only had 45 acres, but I may as well have had 4000.
Flood irrigation in hot summers,  pulling calves in the middle of the night in freezing rain, weed control,  fence repairs, pasture topping, fertilizer spreading, putting hay out, cuttng raking and baling said hay. Nah, you will never have the time.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (2 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> if you have a farm you will never have the time.
> I only had 45 acres, but I may as well have had 4000.
> Flood irrigation in hot summers,  pulling calves in the middle of the night in freezing rain, weed control,  fence repairs, pasture topping, fertilizer spreading, putting hay out, cuttng raking and baling said hay. Nah, you will never have the time.
> Mick



Mick, you are probably right.....but let me dream


----------



## orr (2 August 2021)

The demand for Tesla's MegaPaks makes them 'unobtainium' in real terms till well into 2224 if your not already  on their order book now. 
As  a  future product though?? The melding of MegaPaks and an EV charging  stalls as a plug and play off the shelf line seems just to obvious.

Anything like a determined national EV policy would give the Market the necessary's to go about building charging networks apace. So don't expect to much in that space with the imcumbents.


----------



## sptrawler (2 August 2021)

orr said:


> Anything like a determined national EV policy would give the Market the necessary's to go about building charging networks apace. So don't expect to much in that space with the imcumbents.



Bill you need to go to bed, too many reds, Chloe may be calling. 🤣 








						Ampol to add EV fast chargers at 121 petrol stations around Australia
					

After getting $1 billion to keep its Australian oil refinery pumping, Ampol gets another grant to roll out EV chargers at its petrol stations.




					thedriven.io
				



From the article:
Petrol retailer and oil refiner Ampol is to install electric vehicle fast charging bays at more than 100 of its service stations around Australia, as part of a funding agreement with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency.

Ampol will receive $7.05 million of the $26.8 million awarded to five different groups to expand EV charging infrastructure, as promised under the federal government’s Future Fuels Strategy (FFS).

The recipients, which aslo include Evie Networks, Chargefox, Engie and Electric Highway Tasmania – will deliver a total of 403 new fast charging stations, each capable of charging at least two vehicles concurrently at 50kW or above.

Ampol says it will install renewable powered DC fast chargers (2 x 50kW bays to charge two cars at a time) at 121 of its petrol stations across Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth, and said it expected electric vehicles to “gradually displace internal combustion engines,” particularly in the light passenger fleet.

ARENA said the funding round would help deliver a seven-fold increase in the number of fast charging stations in Australia’s most populated cities and regions.

“Charging stations will be built across eight geographic regions covering 14 of Australia’s most populous cities,” the Agency said in a statement.

“In addition to networks in the capital cities in every state and territory, regional centres including Geelong, Newcastle, Wollongong and the Sunshine Coast will each receive a minimum of eight new fast charging stations to drive the uptake of EVs in regional locations.”
ARENA CEO Darren Miller said the proposals received for this round of Future Fuels funding were of such high quality, the agency was compelled to increase the size of the grants allocation.

“As the costs of electric vehicles come down, more consumers and fleet users are looking to go electric. Expanding the fast charging network will make it easier than ever to drive an EV in Australia.”

The Trevor St Baker-backed Evie Networks was the biggest winner from the funding round, awarded $8.85 million to deliver 158 fast charging stations across eight regions in Australia, with project partners Tritium and ActewAGL.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 August 2021)

orr said:


> The demand for Tesla's MegaPaks makes them 'unobtainium' in real terms till well into 2224



I must say that's a rather precise forecast given it's 203 years into the future.... 

Typo I hope!


----------



## basilio (3 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Some time ago, I bought a 1980's sports car called an Embeesa Charger.
> Its a fibreglass body kit car from UK that uses the floor pan and running gear from a standard 1965 to 1980 beetle.
> Instead of rebuilding the engine, bringing it up to 1600 CC specs, putting new disc brakes and steering etc,
> I have decided to go with a company called Traction EV that provide a complete (although expensive) kit to use Tesla batteries and controllers to run an electric motor through the standard beetle clutch, gearbox and drivetrain.
> ...



Electric VDub conversions seem exceptionally popular. Iconic design.  Excellent floor pan and runnng gear. And from all reports they have plenty of go.

I really do wonder if/when more iconic cars get rebuilt with EV drivetrains. I think the look and feel of these cars was very important. But these days even "normal"restorations upgrade brakes, electrical's ,suspension components and air con. almost as a matter of course.









						Lunaz Design | Converts vehicles to zero-emissions powertrains
					

We realise the potential of upcycling to plot a more sustainable path to a decarbonised future. Upcycles and converts heavy-goods and industrial vehicles in response to the globally legislated push towards zero-emissions powertrains.




					lunaz.design
				











						Here are 15 cool electric restomods
					

Shoehorning batteries and motors into your old clunker? You're far from alone




					www.topgear.com


----------



## orr (3 August 2021)

Fantastic .... Ampol, makes billions from Oil, gets now not one but two, in the last few months, subsities and grants, in the billion$ from a Liberal Federal Government. .... Who would of thought?      .... oh not just them? AGL on the tit as well.
And this is highlighted in an Electric Vehical thread as a grand achievment in 2021.
What next? Keith Pitt will be able to say the word 'Battery' out loud in public, rather than a screaming waking nightmare.

A National EV policy allows the Market( emphsis *the Market*) to make investment decisions allocating capital to enable profit by modeling futre need. 
'_there's a revolutionry  economic concept_'.
As opposed to adhoc pork barreling announcable distractions from compounding  failure, as the one trawer linked above; that also represent an unnecessary cost to the Tax payer.

yeah typo Smurf...


----------



## basilio (3 August 2021)

Zero Labs has a imaginative business model. They build an electric car platform and then plonk old classic cars on top of them.









						Zero Labs Automotive Electric Vehicles
					

Based in Los Angeles, California is an automotive and industrial design, technology and engineering firm with a focus on developing the Premium Classic Electric Vehicles. Classic Electric Vehicles, Net Zero Labs (NZL) ready, Electric Platform Manufacturing.




					www.zerolabs.com
				











						Driving Zero Labs' electric Ford Bronco
					






					www.topgear.com


----------



## mullokintyre (3 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Zero Labs has a imaginative business model. They build an electric car platform and then plonk old classic cars on top of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Theres lots. 
My son has done some IT work for a company called Electric Car Conversions based in Melbourne.
EV north is another  OZ outfit that has done an EV conversion on a 50's era Morris Minor .
I looked at a co called EV West that did a similar thing to  Traction EV, but although their kit was marginally cheaper even after exchange losses and shipping, they could not or would not  ship the Tesla batteries with the kit, I had to source them myself, which is why i ended up going for the Traction EV mob, which being OZ based , has no issue with shipping the batteries.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (10 August 2021)

Vehicle to grid (V2G) trail results are starting to come in.








						Gary earns money by plugging his car into the wall. What's the catch?
					

Owners of electric vehicles may soon be able to get paid for simply plugging their car into the wall. But there are a few things to consider first.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (11 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Vehicle to grid (V2G) trail results are starting to come in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From the V2G post there are a few points ASF members should be aware of IMO, this is especially important if you are interested in the V2G side of the EV purchase.
The article also shows the importance of taking a steady, steady approach to BEV adoption and uptake and as I said the recently signed free trade agreement with the U.K will help enormously with Australia's transition to BEV's IMO.

The whole article is very interesting IMO, below are some excerpts from the article:


In July last year, one of the first Australian V2G trials began in the ACT, led by the Australian National University (ANU).

The two-year Realising Electric Vehicles-to-grid Services (REVS) trial would test V2G on a fleet of 51 mostly ACT Government EVs.

But it quickly hit a roadblock: bi-directional chargers (that can charge EV batteries and also export power from these batteries to the grid) had not been certified for use in Australia.
That's now been resolved and the newly certified chargers are on their way.
"I see the trial operating by the end of the year," said Geoffrey Rutledge, ACT government lead on emissions reduction.

By 2025, all new EVs will be V2G capable​If all of Australia's 19 million cars were EVs, they would hold a truly staggering amount of energy.

Bjorn Sturmberg, research leader at ANU's Battery Storage and Grid Integration Program, which is leading the REVS trial, calculates it would be equivalent to more than 10,000 Tesla Big Batteries.

He said Australia was well placed to take advantage of V2G, due to it being a world leader in rooftop solar.

"Because of that, we have quite a lot of industry engagement from the electricity sector," he said.

But there's a long way to go.

The battery technology used in most EVs today, called CCS, is not compatible with V2G.

*Of the cars sold in Australia, only the Nissan Leaf ZE1 and Mistubishi Outlander plug-in have V2G charging capability.

But that's due to change. By 2025, all new EVs will be V2G capable.*

But the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) still sees "enormous potential" in V2G, says its chief executive officer Darren Miller.

The agency is providing more than $7.5 million in funding for four projects looking into V2G and smart charging (charging EVs during off-peak hours), including the REVs trial.

"We have heard people talk about EVs as "batteries on wheels", and when you project forward the inevitable uptake of EVs in the years ahead, you can appreciate the huge energy storage potential that will exist in the EV fleet," Mr Miller said.



> "In Australia we’re just beginning to start our V2G journey.



"*It is really only just starting to kick off around the world, as no country has adopted the technology at scale yet.*

"We expect to see a few more years of trials and a bigger range of V2G-enabled car models with a larger consumer uptake before things truly take off."

Whereas popping a solar panel on the roof to make power and use less energy from the grid is pretty straightforward and easy to understand, V2G is more complex, Dr Lucas-Healey said.

"You're giving a third-party permission to do things with your battery. It's a complex piece of kit interacting with a complex system, which is the grid."

*A Facebook page for EV owners taking part in V2G trials in the UK is full of complaints about technological glitches and punitive tariffs.

Several participants said they would switch to vehicle-to-home charging (V2H) upon completing the trial. The main reason they took part in the trial was to collect a free bi-directional charger.*


----------



## mullokintyre (12 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The factory is being built super fast, and they are already loading equipment into it, the earnings call the the other day was done from a confrence room inside it.
> 
> we will see what Ford can do next year I guess, but yeah Tesla’s factory is not that far away from completion.



And right on cue, Tesla announces another delay.
From EngagedEt



> Tesla’s electric pickup isn’t going anywhere this year. The company has quietly pushed the release of the electric pickup to next year. That's according to its configuration page, telling you that you'll get to customize your truck when "production nears in 2022." This applies regardless of model — single-motor trucks were always going to arrive later, but a new 2022 launch seems to for the dual- and tri-motor machines, too.
> 
> Tesla delivering on its promises has been a rare feat recently. Just last month, its semi truck was also pushed back to 2022, due to supply constraints, both in sourcing batteries and the general mayhem that is COVID-19. Oh, and then there’s the Tesla Roadster, delayed until, yep, 2022.
> 
> Elon Musk said in January that there would only be a "few deliveries" of Cybertrucks in 2021, and that volume production was set for 2022. While the company stuck to that claim in its July quarterly report, the company only recently finished the engineering design for the EV, which would have made for an extremely tight production schedule.



Still think Ford will beat them to it, or at least be within a short time frame.
And Ford have a worldwide established dealer/spare parts network that has been running for a few years.
Ford lightning may not be as pretty or jazzy as the Tesla cybertruck, but vaporware it aint.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (12 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And right on cue, Tesla announces another delay.
> From EngagedEt
> 
> 
> ...



Check out this video at the 9 min mark, for a look at the Tesla factory progress, this was a complete green field development, so you can expect certain delays, but as you can see they are making huge progress, whether or not the Ford or the Tesla comes out first is not really really important.

but Tesla have 500,000 deposits put down for the cyber truck, how many ore orders does Ford have?


----------



## mullokintyre (12 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Check out this video at the 9 min mark, for a look at the Tesla factory progress, this was a complete green field development, so you can expect certain delays, but as you can see they are making huge progress, whether or not the Ford or the Tesla comes out first is not really really important.
> 
> but Tesla have 500,000 deposits put down for the cyber truck, how many ore orders does Ford have?




Not sure if it matters how many orders there are. 
There were lots of orders for Niccola.
Look how well that went.
The real stats are how many get delivered.
We will just have to wait and see.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (12 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Not sure if it matters how many orders there are.
> There were lots of orders for Niccola.
> Look how well that went.
> The real stats are how many get delivered.
> ...




The difference is that Nikola was a fraud, and never built a factory or came close to producing and selling vehicles, did you watch the video I linked from the 9 min mark? That’s Tesla’s 3rd vehicle factory, Nikola never even broke ground on 1 actual factory.

Tesla on the other hand is a real company, producing 100’s of thousands of vehicles.

its proved its orders translate to sales on 5 other models before the Cyber truck.


----------



## JohnDe (12 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And right on cue, Tesla announces another delay.
> From EngagedEt
> 
> 
> ...




Ford are big but VW is bigger, both are having trouble sourcing materials for EV's and manufacturing them at economical prices. Check out Sandy Munro's videos, he dismantles the EV's and gives constructive descriptions about their engineering and costs.



			https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj--iMtToRO_cGG_fpmP5XQ


----------



## basilio (12 August 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Ford are big but VW is bigger, both are having trouble sourcing materials for EV's and manufacturing them at economical prices. Check out Sandy Munro's videos, he dismantles the EV's and gives constructive descriptions about their engineering and costs.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj--iMtToRO_cGG_fpmP5XQ




Sandy Munro has been an invaluable  independent  technical analyst of the ongoing Tesla production. Elon Musk has certainly taken his ideas on board.

*The video you referenced is outstanding.  The analysis and frankness are great.  Really recommended for all the engineers on ASF. *


----------



## Value Collector (12 August 2021)

Also, just on the Topic of delays.

Some people here will remember when I first placed my order for my Tesla Model 3, and proudly proclaimed I would have it in 12 months.

Well a combination of the factory taking an extra 9 months to build, and there being 400,000 orders in front of me meant it actually took a bit over 2 years.

But, delays happen who cares I ended up getting the car, and Tesla ended up giving me free premium Internet and Spotify for the life of the vehicle as a thankyou for my patience, that would normally cost $10 a month.


----------



## qldfrog (12 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Not sure if it matters how many orders there are.
> There were lots of orders for Niccola.
> Look how well that went.
> The real stats are how many get delivered.
> ...



Nicola was just lacking hills to coast its models😁


----------



## sptrawler (16 August 2021)

Interesting whisper going around at the moment, by 2024 all new cars to be fitted with gps controlled active speed limiters and data storage equipment, that will spell the death knell of high performance ICE engines.  Ah technology just the thing to make life boring. 😂
Cars will have to have the gps equipment fitted and data loggers fitted, as of 2022, but I believe it isn't until 2024 that it all has to be operational.









						EU demands speed limiters on all new cars: know the rules and how they work | Auto Express
					

Car industry body calls for UK government to adopt the new measures, but we’ll probably get them anyway…




					www.autoexpress.co.uk


----------



## divs4ever (16 August 2021)

might have to fix up my bicycle then  , and reclaim  the freedoms of the road 

 remember when the fun police dominate , creativity and productivity nose-dive


----------



## qldfrog (16 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> might have to fix up my bicycle then  , and reclaim  the freedoms of the road
> 
> remember when the fun police dominate , creativity and productivity nose-dive



and civilisation collapses.
But history teaches us nothing... clearly...
The west is dead.Long life to our new leader Dr Xi


----------



## divs4ever (16 August 2021)

is Dr. Xi worse than the two-faced posers we have currently 

 we have consistently had  our international respect eroded by self-centred leaders 

 and maybe 'paradise' needs a dose of reality


----------



## qldfrog (16 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> is Dr. Xi worse than the two-faced posers we have currently
> 
> we have consistently had  our international respect eroded by self-centred leaders
> 
> and maybe 'paradise' needs a dose of reality



Worse,,?..hum..Xi not worse than what is coming here, but far worse than what we had 30y ago
A regression definitely
Hopefully Puttin alliance with China will save Russia,and so part of the western civilisation
Not sure Russia will go EV...


----------



## qldfrog (16 August 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Worse,,?..hum..Xi not worse than what is coming here, but far worse than what we had 30y ago
> A regression definitely
> Hopefully Puttin alliance with China will save Russia,and so part of the western civilisation
> Not sure Russia will go EV...



I digress apologies


----------



## mullokintyre (17 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> nteresting whisper going around at the moment, by 2024 all new cars to be fitted with gps controlled active speed limiters and data storage equipment, that will spell the death knell of high performance ICE engines.  Ah technology just the thing to make life boring. 😂
> Cars will have to have the gps equipment fitted and data loggers fitted, as of 2022, but I believe it isn't until 2024 that it all has to be operational.




It will also affect all the fast EV's around as well as ICE equipeed ones.
I can see a huge blackmarket in fake GPS  units emitting bull**** data for  the leadfoots.
Of course, all the old ICE V8s etc will not be able to fit them retrospectively, especially those vehicles registered as historic or club rego vehicles. Like to see how they are going to integrate one into the 62 Tbird  I have that has nothing electrical on it except the lights and the interior clock.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (17 August 2021)

Elon and Tesla in the news again for all the wrong reasons.
FromABC News


> The biggest news rocking the Nasdaq was news that US authorities are going to investigate Tesla over its Autopilot cars crashing into emergency vehicles like fire trucks.
> 
> Elon Musk's Tesla dropped 5 per cent on that news.
> 
> ...




It seems their AI does not recognise emergency vehicles.
They would have to fix that before its introduced in OZ. 
In Vic there is a  450 fine and two demerit points for not slowing to 40KMH when passing an emergency vehicle with its lights flashing.
Mick


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## qldfrog (17 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> It will also affect all the fast EV's around as well as ICE equipeed ones.
> I can see a huge blackmarket in fake GPS  units emitting bull**** data for  the leadfoots.
> Of course, all the old ICE V8s etc will not be able to fit them retrospectively, especially those vehicles registered as historic or club rego vehicles. Like to see how they are going to integrate one into the 62 Tbird  I have that has nothing electrical on it except the lights and the interior clock.
> Mick



you could fit these on a horse carriage, just need 12V..
Mick, you do not escape that easily from big brother, and in a country which accepts mandatory medical trials, a few targeted graphic ads: "speed kills" will ensure a massive adoption of ongoing tracking within meter of every movement [even if you do not have a phone on you], next stage remote stopping..fair after all why do a dangerous car pursuit..even 1984 was not imaginative enough for what is creeping on us.better start gathering high social credits and getting anomynous on forums

Remember, "own nothing, be happy" so no individual cars is the short term target, and we all agree we do not want to be passengers in speeding taxis or train carriages?  
It is a done deal and EV with their pricing is the first step, more than any elusive global warming target.As EU has already mandated some steps there, we will get it anyway on all new vehicles
 I do not see local gov resisting either the bonanza of automated speed fines..
I even cynically think they will give you enough tolerance just to be able to get you for over 5km/h over the limit in variable speed zones: school, road works and no cop/speed trap needed, you will pay and maintain it with your own $


----------



## qldfrog (17 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Elon and Tesla in the news again for all the wrong reasons.
> FromABC News
> 
> 
> ...



I suspect a stupid bug, emergency vehicles recognised as different and some rules bypassed..to give them priority..which could for example remove them from the "moving objects on the road" class or similar; this is actually atype of bugs which could make sense;
surprisingly, many bugs..in retrospect..make sense
I would not like to be in a tesla crossing the path of a giant bouncing red kangaroo..
not your typical test in Silicon Valley....or even Sydney


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> It will also affect all the fast EV's around as well as ICE equipeed ones.
> I can see a huge blackmarket in fake GPS  units emitting bull**** data for  the leadfoots.
> Of course, all the old ICE V8s etc will not be able to fit them retrospectively, especially those vehicles registered as historic or club rego vehicles. Like to see how they are going to integrate one into the 62 Tbird  I have that has nothing electrical on it except the lights and the interior clock.
> Mick



The thing will be IMO, it is the first step along the path to autonomous vehicles, it will only take an overly authoritarian style Gov to start and introduce laws that allow data from the onboard data logger to be used to fine the vehicles owner.
We certainly are moving into an interesting time, the fine for speeding will probably change also, older vehicles getting impounded and crushed will be the go IMO.
Changing peoples perception of what is in their best interest e.g stopping people from speeding, by getting them to buy a car that doesn't allow it to happen, will take some doing and some time.


----------



## noirua (17 August 2021)

__





						Six children injured as Tesla crashes in school car park
					





					www.msn.com
				



The £40,000 Tesla Model 3 saloon car was subsequently removed from the site on the back of a lorry. It is not known if there was a driver behind the wheel at the time of the collision. The Tesla Model 3 has self-driving capabilities.


----------



## Value Collector (17 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> It will also affect all the fast EV's around as well as ICE equipeed ones.
> I can see a huge blackmarket in fake GPS  units emitting bull**** data for  the leadfoots.
> Of course, all the old ICE V8s etc will not be able to fit them retrospectively, especially those vehicles registered as historic or club rego vehicles. Like to see how they are going to integrate one into the 62 Tbird  I have that has nothing electrical on it except the lights and the interior clock.
> Mick



I guess in the older cars, rather than a gps speed limiter, they could just install a gps device that tracks speed, and issues fines when the “over speed limit” is reached.


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I guess in the older cars, rather than a gps speed limiter, they could just install a gps device that tracks speed, and issues fines when the “over speed limit” is reached.



The easiest way, would be to just increase punitive laws, so that it has the three fold effect of reducing speeders, removing cars from the road if they are impounded and crushed and also increasing revenue.
People spending a lot of money on a brand new Tesla, won't be impressed when all the V8's get to Melbourne 3 hours faster than the BEV, it will stifle demand IMO.
The easiest way to get around it, will be to make it unattractive to be caught speeding, just reduce the level at which hoon laws come into effect "to save people".
The other thing that would happen as a consequence would be, the benefit of having a 500KW V8 Mustang would be pointless, I can actually see this killing the performance car market. 
They won't bring in retrospective gps fitment IMO, same as they didn't make it compulsory old cars had to be fitted with seat belts.
They may bring in that cars fitted with satnav, have an approved data logger fitted, that could be done as a recall e.g the Mustangs etc.
I can imagine it now, "hello sir is there any reason for why you were speeding"? um no.
"Well could you please get out of the car while we plug in our OBD2 reader, oh gosh it looks as though you have been a naughty boy, on numerous occasions. We will have to impound your car for further investigation and possible penalties". 🤣
"Can I call you a taxi"?


----------



## Value Collector (17 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> People spending a lot of money on a brand new Tesla, won't be impressed when all the V8's get to Melbourne 3 hours faster than the BEV, it will stifle demand IMO.




I am not sure they will mind, they will be asleep, watching movies or playing video games as the cars drive themselves soon.


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## sptrawler (17 August 2021)

Thats true, but it is the period between now and then, that  will be difficult.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure they will mind, they will be asleep, watching movies or playing video games as the cars drive themselves soon.




And crashing into parked emergency vehicles .


----------



## Value Collector (17 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> And crashing into parked emergency vehicles .



Sometimes, but less often than human drivers do.

The real test of autonomous driving systems is not whether they crash or not, because there will definitely be crashes, but whether or not they crash less often than human drivers.

think of it like the COVID-19 vaccines, we know that the vaccines cause deaths, but they will prevent 1000’s more deaths than they cause.

Avoiding autonomous vehicles because you are worried about crashes, will eventually be as illogical as avoiding the vaccines.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Sometimes, but less often than human drivers do.
> 
> The real test of autonomous driving systems is not whether they crash or not, because there will definitely be crashes, but whether or not they crash less often than human drivers.
> 
> ...




Well the problem is as I've said already is we don't know the algorithm that the auto pilot works on.

eg is it going to send me head on with a B double in order to avoid a pedestrian or a stray dog on the road ?

I'd like to make those decisions myself, but I admit that it's tempting to sit back and let the car drive me.


----------



## Value Collector (17 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Well the problem is as I've said already is we don't know the algorithm that the auto pilot works on.
> 
> eg is it going to send me head on with a B double in order to avoid a pedestrian or a stray dog on the road ?
> 
> I'd like to make those decisions myself, but I admit that it's tempting to sit back and let the car drive me.



If you have an accident with a B double, it’s probably because either you or the B double driver was sleepy, distracted, or drunk these are the types of accidents that autonomous systems will avoid completely.

As I said you argument is a bit like the lady that died of covid recently, because she avoided the vax,  because she was scared of blood clots.


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## SirRumpole (17 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> If you have an accident with a B double, it’s probably because either you or the B double driver was sleepy, distracted, or drunk these are the types of accidents that autonomous systems will avoid completely.
> 
> As I said you argument is a bit like the lady that died of covid recently, because she avoided the vax,  because she was scared of blood clots.




So what do you do with your autopilot ? Just turn it on and go to sleep ? That's what you would do if you trust it completely.


----------



## Value Collector (17 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> So what do you do with your autopilot ? Just turn it on and go to sleep ? That's what you would do if you trust it completely.



Autopilot is not fully autonomous at the moment, that will be called level 5 Autopilot, at the moment it’s only level 2.

So I will put autopilot on, the car will navigate, change lanes, over take slower cars, merge off freeway etc but it’s not perfect, but it’s getting better and better all the time with updates.

so far the figures suggest that a car with autopilot enabled and an alert driver out performs the driver by itself.


----------



## Value Collector (17 August 2021)

This is an interesting video about autopilot cars, it talks about some of the doubts you have had rumpy


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## sptrawler (17 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Autopilot is not fully autonomous at the moment, that will be called level 5 Autopilot, at the moment it’s only level 2.
> 
> So I will put autopilot on, the car will navigate, change lanes, over take slower cars, merge off freeway etc but it’s not perfect, but it’s getting better and better all the time with updates.
> 
> so far the figures suggest that a car with autopilot enabled and an alert driver out performs the driver by itself.



Wireless technology will enable autonomous driving, as 5G, 6G, 7G etc enable faster and greater amounts of data transfer, autonomous driving cars will get better and better. It is only a matter of time.


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## SirRumpole (17 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Wireless technology will enable autonomous driving, as 5G, 6G, 7G etc enable faster and greater amounts of data transfer, autonomous driving cars will get better and better. It is only a matter of time.




Yes, the hackers will have a great time.


----------



## sptrawler (17 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, the hackers will have a great time.



That will be an issue for sure, but as the hackers get better so do the establishment trackers, then if the hacker is caught it becomes murder in the case of a car accident. Currently they are looked upon as nuisance value, once they start causing cars to crash, that takes it to a whole new level.  
But the introduction of active speed limiting, really does indicate they are heading toward autonomous cars, if all the cars are behaving in a controlled manner without human interference the algorithm becomes much easier.
There will be problems, but removing human emotion, ability, eyesight, physical dexterity, cognitive function etc from the equation, makes for a huge reduction in variables.


----------



## divs4ever (17 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, the hackers will have a great time.



please , please it is getting close to my bedtime 

 and that is ever so scary ( NO sarcasm intended )


----------



## Value Collector (17 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, the hackers will have a great time.



We have had planes that fly on autopilot for a fair while, do they get hacked often? 

I am not a computer guru, but to me it doesn't seem to hard to have some various different systems of the car operating as separate systems that can not be controlled from external sources, with different layers of encryption.

For example, the cars driving systems might be able to be a completely closed system that is self contained that doesn't receive any sort of driving instructions externally, except for basic information like traffic data and navigation etc. so maybe a hacker could prank you and get the car to navigate some where you didn't request, but not get the car to drive into a wall, because the cars ability to see the wall and stop is contained in the closed system.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> We have had planes that fly on autopilot for a fair while, do they get hacked often?




Autopilots on aircraft fail for various reasons. The difference is that pilots are professionals who are trained to detect failures and turn off the system. Your average car driver is probably texting or talking to someone and is less likely to notice the failure.


----------



## Value Collector (18 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Autopilots on aircraft fail for various reasons. The difference is that pilots are professionals who are trained to detect failures and turn off the system. Your average car driver is probably texting or talking to someone and is less likely to notice the failure.



But do they get hacked?

The point is not that autopilots will be perfect, they don’t have to be, Autopilots just need to fail less often than humans, and they will save lives and be an improvement, and there will be humans there to take over


----------



## basilio (19 August 2021)

Something to think about.
Has the boom dropped for ICE car sales ? Are  we seeing an acceleration  in EV sales with a clear stagnation/decline in ICE vehicles?









						How Tesla's Model 3 triggered The Osborne Effect, and caused the ICE market to melt
					

Global new car sales have fallen steady since 2017, when Tesla released the Model 3. Many consumers are waiting to buy the right EV for them.




					thedriven.io


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Something to think about.
> Has the boom dropped for ICE car sales ? Are  we seeing an acceleration  in EV sales with a clear stagnation/decline in ICE vehicles?
> 
> 
> ...



Which is what we said a couple of years ago on the forum, people will just hang on to their current vehicle, until it becomes viable to change to BEV.


----------



## Value Collector (19 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Which is what we said a couple of years ago on the forum, people will just hang on to their current vehicle, until it becomes viable to change to BEV.



That’s called the “Osborne effect”





__





						Osborne effect - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> That’s called the “Osborne effect”
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't realise they had a name for it, but it is obvious, the amount of ramping on the media re climate change and the death of ICE vehicles, has to cause a phobia.
It is similar to the vaccine hesitancy, if the media had put a positive spin on the benefits of AstraZeneca, instead of the sensationalising the clot issue, there wouldn't be the huge vaccine hesitancy issue IMO.
Unfortunately IMO the media has become a tabloid, that is driven by sales, rather than by journalism.

*MEAA Journalist Code of Ethics*​_Respect for truth and the public’s right to information are fundamental principles of journalism. Journalists search, disclose, record, question, entertain, comment and remember. They inform citizens and animate democracy. They scrutinise power, but also exercise it, and should be responsible and accountable._​MEAA members engaged in journalism commit themselves to:​*Honesty 
Fairness 
Independence 
Respect for the rights of others*​Journalists will educate themselves about ethics and apply the following standards:​*1.* Report and interpret honestly, striving for accuracy, fairness and disclosure of all essential facts. Do not suppress relevant available facts, or give distorting emphasis. Do your utmost to give a fair opportunity for reply.

*2.* Do not place unnecessary emphasis on personal characteristics, including race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, age, sexual orientation, family relationships, religious belief, or physical or intellectual disability.

*3.* Aim to attribute information to its source. Where a source seeks anonymity, do not agree without first considering the source’s motives and any alternative attributable source. Where confidences are accepted, respect them in all circumstances.

*4.* Do not allow personal interest, or any belief, commitment, payment, gift or benefit, to undermine your accuracy, fairness or independence.

*5.* Disclose conflicts of interest that affect, or could be seen to affect, the accuracy, fairness or independence of your journalism. Do not improperly use a journalistic position for personal gain.

*6.* Do not allow advertising or other commercial considerations to undermine accuracy, fairness or independence.

*7.* Do your utmost to ensure disclosure of any direct or indirect payment made for interviews, pictures, information or stories.

*8.* Use fair, responsible and honest means to obtain material. Identify yourself and your employer before obtaining any interview for publication or broadcast. Never exploit a person’s vulnerability or ignorance of media practice.

*9.* Present pictures and sound which are true and accurate. Any manipulation likely to mislead should be disclosed.

*10.* Do not plagiarise.

*11.* Respect private grief and personal privacy. Journalists have the right to resist compulsion to intrude.

*12.* Do your utmost to achieve fair correction of errors.


----------



## mullokintyre (19 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> We have had planes that fly on autopilot for a fair while, do they get hacked often?
> 
> I am not a computer guru, but to me it doesn't seem to hard to have some various different systems of the car operating as separate systems that can not be controlled from external sources, with different layers of encryption.
> 
> For example, the cars driving systems might be able to be a completely closed system that is self contained that doesn't receive any sort of driving instructions externally, except for basic information like traffic data and navigation etc. so maybe a hacker could prank you and get the car to navigate some where you didn't request, but not get the car to drive into a wall, because the cars ability to see the wall and stop is contained in the closed system.



Probably not a good analogy to use.
Autopilots in planes come in a variety of levels of sophistication.
At its most basic its a wing leveller, at its most complex it will fly a flight plan via numerous way points, and ascend and descend at  a predetermined rate.
Yet  if the pilot sets his heading bug for a course, sets his altitude bug for a predetermined height,  the plane can still fly into a  mountain which happens to be on the predertmined course and at a height above the predetermined level. Assuming of course he does not notice the upcoming mountain and takes evasive action. If the pilot is IFR in cloud  and does not read his charts properly, he would not see the upcoming mountain anyway. Similarly, he would not see other aircraft that may be on a collision course.
Aircraft Autopilots are a long way behind what level 5 auto driving requires.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (19 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I didn't realise they had a name for it, but it is obvious, the amount of ramping on the media re climate change and the death of ICE vehicles, has to cause a phobia.
> It is similar to the vaccine hesitancy, if the media had put a positive spin on the benefits of AstraZeneca, instead of the sensationalising the clot issue, there wouldn't be the huge vaccine hesitancy issue IMO.
> Unfortunately IMO the media has become a tabloid, that is driven by sales, rather than by journalism.
> 
> ...



Would be nice to see courageous journos adopting these, for covid as well .


----------



## divs4ever (19 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Probably not a good analogy to use.
> Autopilots in planes come in a variety of levels of sophistication.
> At its most basic its a wing leveller, at its most complex it will fly a flight plan via numerous way points, and ascend and descend at  a predetermined rate.
> Yet  if the pilot sets his heading bug for a course, sets his altitude bug for a predetermined height,  the plane can still fly into a  mountain which happens to be on the predertmined course and at a height above the predetermined level. Assuming of course he does not notice the upcoming mountain and takes evasive action. If the pilot is IFR in cloud  and does not read his charts properly, he would not see the upcoming mountain anyway. Similarly, he would not see other aircraft that may be on a collision course.
> ...



737 MAX ...such programming skill ( or lack of it )  put in a traffic dense situation

( am not saying 'auto-pilot' in a plane is totally bad , but should be used wisely by informed users )

 in a car ( or some trucks/campervans ) cruise-control brings out the human defect in such systems


----------



## divs4ever (19 August 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Would be nice to see courageous journos adopting these, for covid as well .



 after a stint of 12 years working for a NWS subsidiary ( more if you count my stint as a paper boy ) i would just like to see them applied in some corporations  ( even in the staff newsletter )

 regarding courageous journos  , you will need to check out alt. tech media  , elsewhere the truth seems to be banned ( and not just in the area of health/medicine )

 even on Alt. tech you still need to do your own research 

 cheers


----------



## Value Collector (19 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Probably not a good analogy to use.
> Autopilots in planes come in a variety of levels of sophistication.
> At its most basic its a wing leveller, at its most complex it will fly a flight plan via numerous way points, and ascend and descend at  a predetermined rate.
> Yet  if the pilot sets his heading bug for a course, sets his altitude bug for a predetermined height,  the plane can still fly into a  mountain which happens to be on the predertmined course and at a height above the predetermined level. Assuming of course he does not notice the upcoming mountain and takes evasive action. If the pilot is IFR in cloud  and does not read his charts properly, he would not see the upcoming mountain anyway. Similarly, he would not see other aircraft that may be on a collision course.
> ...



Agreed, but autopilot in planes is a good example of how automation can reduce risk of human error, for example as the video said during landing for example.


----------



## mullokintyre (20 August 2021)

The Autoland feature is a great innovation when all the parameters are within a set boundary, but like the autodrive, it is the 5% of time when conditions depart from that set boundary that it just does not know what to do. The aircraft that enters the main runway when another aircraft is on short final, the last aircraft that got disabled on the runway due to flat tyres,  debris on the runway from the last clown that miscalculated his thrust settings  for the weight he was carrying and dragged the arse of the plane along the runway as he desperately tried to rotate. There are lots of other gotchas that sometimes sitting for a few hours in a sim is the only way to train for.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (20 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> after a stint of 12 years working for a NWS subsidiary ( more if you count my stint as a paper boy ) i would just like to see them applied in some corporations  ( even in the staff newsletter )
> 
> regarding courageous journos  , you will need to check out alt. tech media  , elsewhere the truth seems to be banned ( and not just in the area of health/medicine )
> 
> ...



as you must have seen, I always ask why? and do my searches
So my contrarian attitude it seems cf Covid response, global warming created by Co2..that one should be a laughing matter yet has become a religion, and so many other subjects;
For EV, I actually like a lot the technology, but did the numbers when a friend was boasting his telsla as a reduced Co2 impact and ecological choice;
In Australia, qld in our case, unless you charge it fully at home from your own power, it is not that great comparing even to my diesel ute.and I do not even count the "bringing a car from the US vs Asia" factor
real science means analysing effects of experiences and data (numbers).And doing that without bias,
We have experience and numbers for covid effects, covid vaccines, immigration vs security /impact on poorer country, historical (geological) data on global warming  vs co2, so we need proper reporting of these
For electrical cars, we have enough data to see if it is actually a plus  overall..And this will depend on location
Note there are noise and city pollution advantages even if fully charged on dirty power: see chinese city traffic
And yes less CO2 is good as it currently means less fossil fuels with limited supplies, but not always achieved with EV, especially when you dump working ICE vehicles due to artificial gov regulations


----------



## basilio (21 August 2021)

If you havn't heard much about the Hyundai Ioniq 5 check out this review. Coming soon to Oz.

It's a very cool car. Can even park  itself in tight spots (and get out as well..!).











						Hyundai Ioniq 5 pricing announced, less than Tesla Model 3
					

Hyundai reveals UK pricing and specs for Ioniq 5, and they're a good £4,000 less than the Standard Range Plus Model 3. Will we see the same pattern in Australia?




					thedriven.io


----------



## basilio (21 August 2021)

Now here's a hypothetical. Let's imagine everyone was driving electric cars and suddenly ICE cars were coming onto the market.
What sort of questions would current EV drivers be asking about changing to petrol driven cars ?

Consider these for a start.. 

*1.* I have heard that petrol cars can not refuel at home while you sleep? How often do you have to refill elsewhere? Is this several times a year? Will there be a solution for refueling at home?

*2.* Which parts will I need service on and how often? The car salesman mentioned a box with gears in it. What is this and will I receive a warning with an indicator when I need to change gear?

*3.* Can I accelerate and brake with one pedal as I do today with my electric car?

*4.* Do I get fuel back when I slow down or drive downhill? I assume so, but need to ask to be sure.

*5.* The car I test drove seemed to have a delay from the time I pressed the accelerator pedal until it began to accelerate. Is that normal in petrol cars?

*6.* We currently pay about 1.2p per mile to drive our electric car. I have heard that petrol can cost up to 10 times as much so I reckon we will lose some money in the beginning. We drive about 20,000 miles a year. Let’s hope more people will start using petrol so prices go down.

*7.* Is it true that petrol is flammable? Should I empty the tank and store the petrol somewhere else while the car is in the garage?

*8.* Is there an automatic system to prevent gasoline from catching fire or exploding in an accident. What does this cost?

*9.* I understand that the main ingredient in petrol is oil. Is it true that the extraction and refining of oil causes environmental problems as well as conflicts and major wars that over the last 100 years have cost millions of lives? Is there a solution to these problems?









						I'm thinking of replacing my EV with a petrol car. Can I refuel it at home?
					

The top nine questions for an electric vehicle owner thinking of making the switch to a fossil fuel car.




					thedriven.io


----------



## Value Collector (21 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The Autoland feature is a great innovation when all the parameters are within a set boundary, but like the autodrive, it is the 5% of time when conditions depart from that set boundary that it just does not know what to do. The aircraft that enters the main runway when another aircraft is on short final, the last aircraft that got disabled on the runway due to flat tyres,  debris on the runway from the last clown that miscalculated his thrust settings  for the weight he was carrying and dragged the arse of the plane along the runway as he desperately tried to rotate. There are lots of other gotchas that sometimes sitting for a few hours in a sim is the only way to train for.
> Mick



As I mentioned to Rumpole though, it’s not whether that’s autonomous driving vehicles are perfect that matters, it’s whether they fail less often that’s important.

At the moment Tesla only has level 2 autopilot, but Inhave driven 1000’s of km’s using it, including stretches as long as 3 hours without me having to do anything.

there is no doubt that an alert driver with autopilot is safer than an alert driver by themselves. And it’s is just going tot continue to get better and better.


----------



## Value Collector (21 August 2021)

basilio said:


> Now here's a hypothetical. Let's imagine everyone was driving electric cars and suddenly ICE cars were coming onto the market.
> What sort of questions would current EV drivers be asking about changing to petrol driven cars ?
> 
> Consider these for a start..
> ...



At to that.

10. if we all drive ICE cars, will it increase the number of people in our cities dying of respiratory diseases?


----------



## divs4ever (21 August 2021)

answer to No. 4  ... gravity tank ( i had an old Austin with one fitted )

 luckily it never leaked onto the engine  , but it had one to limit fuel starvation at times

 those power costs are liable  to increase as  global carbon taxes increase  you might not be smiling so broadly in 2030

 A. to No. 5  that same Austin had a very small flywheel  ( and heavy duty clutch )  , tyre traction  and whiplash were more of a problem

 unluckily  that vehicle  had no head-rests and a lightly padded dash  , so 'rip-your -head-off  acceleration '  was vaguely possible with the appropriate tyres


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> answer to No. 4 ... gravity tank ( i had an old Austin with one fitted )
> 
> luckily it never leaked onto the engine



Try driving a Trabant.

The fuel tank is under the bonnet above the engine.

In the event you run into anything, which is a definite possibility given the Trabant's brakes are woeful, you'd be wise to get out of the car real quick. That little 0.6 litre two stroke engine has no radiator so it's nice and hot ready to ignite any leaking petrol.

Former East German engineering at its finest. Definitely more exciting to drive than any mainstream modern non-performance car though - exciting for all the wrong reasons but exciting nonetheless.

One plus is no real chance of pressing the wrong button inside the car. That being because it doesn't really have any buttons to press. One switch on the dash turns the headlights on, another turns the hazard lights on. That's it really, can't go wrong. If it's hot then wind the window down. 

The indicators are far more confusing though. Pull the stalk and it blasts the horn just when you really didn't want to do that in the middle of town stopped behind a horse drawn cart.  (True story there by the way, that did actually happen).

Electric cars, be they manually driven or self driving, will be far more refined I'm sure.


----------



## divs4ever (21 August 2021)

** The fuel tank is under the bonnet above the engine. **

 the particular Austin had TWO tanks  , one under the bonnet and one conventional one 

 there seemed to be  an issue  of the fuel pump  on the conventional  tank  handling  the task ALL the time 

 mind you that MIGHT have been because  there was a larger ( worked ) Morris engine under the bonnet 

 ( when you start messing with flywheels and clutches  an engine transplant is a high probability too )  OH , and the gearbox was modified as well  but i never got around to pulling that apart to see what the heck was done there 

 but sometimes basic is GOOD , less things to break , less to learn 

 but we MIGHT have  had electrics  for the last 50 years  and no matter how crude they were then , we could have solved any problems earlier  ( except the addiction to fancy bling in your mobile palace )

 imagine  an electric version  of the Trabant.  ( probably would have had to use lead-acid batteries  , but some improvement in them would have been so bad )

 most people don't drive 900 kilometres a day regularly , so   for 50 years there has been an obvious niche for EVs , but no ,  people were sold urban tanks ( SUVs  that never go off-road )

 now once again they are trying to FORCE an all or nothing choice 

 and it didn't have to be this way


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> most people don't drive 900 kilometres a day regularly , so for 50 years there has been an obvious niche for EVs , but no , people were sold urban tanks ( SUVs that never go off-road )



Another example is modern utes.

Some of them are so high off the ground that for anyone who isn't substantially taller than average, actually loading heavy things onto them is a pain in the proverbial. As an actual work vehicle they're not that great at all, especially not for anyone going to lots of sites and taking things on and off all day and who's average height or lower.

The "bigger is better" theory isn't always right when it comes to vehicles.


----------



## divs4ever (21 August 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Another example is modern utes.
> 
> Some of them are so high off the ground that for anyone who isn't substantially taller than average, actually loading heavy things onto them is a pain in the proverbial. As an actual work vehicle they're not that great at all, especially not for anyone going to lots of sites and taking things on and off all day and who's average height or lower.
> 
> The "bigger is better" theory isn't always right when it comes to vehicles.



actually electric utes ( as in work utes )  is an area i haven't thought of in respect to extra risks  , you know crazy things , like penetrating the battery system  , large solvent spills  , or like using the ute as a mobile power supply , or portable winch .


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## Smurf1976 (21 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> using the ute as a mobile power supply



I can definitely see situations where that would be useful.

Pretty much every council or utility company outdoor worksite will in practice be using petrol/diesel either to run a generator or to directly power equipment since, even though the power grid is nearby or even if the company doing the work literally owns it, it's all too hard making a temporary connection to it versus a petrol driven generator that just works and runs the tools or alternatively using air tools and a diesel driven air compressor.

Now, if the ute simply had standard 10 Amp power points on it, well that makes running mains powered tools really easy.


----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> answer to No. 4  ... gravity tank ( i had an old Austin with one fitted )
> 
> luckily it never leaked onto the engine  , but it had one to limit fuel starvation at times
> 
> ...




What is a gravity tank? And how does it answer question 4?

question 4 is obviously referring to EV’s recharging when you go down hill or slow down, but how does a gravity tank achieve this?


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

but in that Hyundai promo ( advertorial )  the car is already  set up for such adapters 

 now  IF  the power was to fail  at a crucial moment .....  ( or maybe affect the vehicle  electronics , which might not be noticed until driven )

 but i guess time will tell


----------



## divs4ever (22 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> What is a gravity tank? And how does it answer question 4?
> 
> question 4 is obviously referring to EV’s recharging when you go down hill or slow down, but how does a gravity tank achieve this?



 the gravity tank supplies  fuel despite sudden acceleration , or steep inclines ( or low fuel in the main tank )

  however a question i could have  asked  is .. does that recharging  putting extra strain on the motor   OR train the driver  do use the braking system  less than they should ( relying on the electric motor/drive-train ,  more than the dedicated braking system )


----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> the gravity tank supplies  fuel despite sudden acceleration , or steep inclines ( or low fuel in the main tank )
> 
> however a question i could have  asked  is .. does that recharging  putting extra strain on the motor   OR train the driver  do use the braking system  less than they should ( relying on the electric motor/drive-train ,  more than the dedicated braking system )




it’s doesn’t create any extra strain on the motor, but it does prevent wear on the brakes, and saves fuel.

I guess it does train the driver to use the normal brakes less, because you don’t need to use them as often, which is actually a good thing, you still use the brakes when ever you need to, you never forget how to use them, because you still have to use them you just use them about 10% of the time that you used to to.

The way it works is that when ever you take your foot off the accelerator, the car starts automatically slowing down a bit faster than a petrol car does, but if you need to stop quicker you use the brake, or if you are going down a hill it will basically maintain its speed (rather than continue speeding up) and the extra energy is put back in the battery.

it’s like the air brakes on a truck, except it’s silent, happening automatically wyou release the accelerator, and it recharges the battery.


----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2021)

This Electric Truck never needs to be charged because of regenerative braking.

Because it operates on a mountain, bringing a heavy load down the mountain, and driving back up empty it creates more energy on the way down than it uses to get back up, so it never needs to be charged.


----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I can definitely see situations where that would be useful.
> 
> Pretty much every council or utility company outdoor worksite will in practice be using petrol/diesel either to run a generator or to directly power equipment since, even though the power grid is nearby or even if the company doing the work literally owns it, it's all too hard making a temporary connection to it versus a petrol driven generator that just works and runs the tools or alternatively using air tools and a diesel driven air compressor.
> 
> Now, if the ute simply had standard 10 Amp power points on it, well that makes running mains powered tools really easy.



The Tesla cyber truck will come with 240v power outlets in the back, great for using equipment, camping or charging Electric bikes/motor bikes.


----------



## Value Collector (22 August 2021)

Here is the high lights of Tesla’s AI day.

its shows how they are progressing with the “training” of their Autopilot system.

it also talks about the super computer they are building to conduct this training.


----------



## mullokintyre (23 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The Tesla cyber truck will come with 240v power outlets in the back, great for using equipment, camping or charging Electric bikes/motor bikes.



Problem is, that 240 volt going through an inverter is going to use up some  of the range.
Surely its time Milwaukee developed a an 18 volt DC- DC charger so there is no need to go through an inverter to charge up the tradies batteries.
Gunna have to cart around a huge solar array to recharge when you want to come home.
When we take our van away and usually not in caravan parks, I can keep the  220 amp hour batteries topped up for days on end with 600 watt solar panels, provided we only use the 12 volt Fridge, a few low power lights  and the sound system. Provided the sun shines for a good part of the day and we are above the Tropic of Capricorn, and provided we don't use the TV or anything that needs the 1500 W inverter.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Problem is, that 240 volt going through an inverter is going to use up some  of the range.
> Surely its time Milwaukee developed a an 18 volt DC- DC charger so there is no need to go through an inverter to charge up the tradies batteries.
> Gunna have to cart around a huge solar array to recharge when you want to come home.
> When we take our van away and usually not in caravan parks, I can keep the  220 amp hour batteries topped up for days on end with 600 watt solar panels, provided we only use the 12 volt Fridge, a few low power lights  and the sound system. Provided the sun shines for a good part of the day and we are above the Tropic of Capricorn, and provided we don't use the TV or anything that needs the 1500 W inverter.
> Mick



No it’s a standard power socket, that you can plug anything into rather than using a generator,  the Cyber truck has a huge 200 KWh battery with  over 1000km of range and yes it does have an option for the rear tray cover to be a solar panel.

its battery is 15 times larger than Tesla’s power wall, which is designed to run your home over night.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (23 August 2021)

Not necessarily fully EV relevant, or maybe it is, from one of the weekly's in the Inbox..


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> ’s a standard power socket, that you can plug anything into rather than using a generator,



I can see plenty of use for that in situations like outdoor works (councils, utilities) and so on.

Classic case is an electric jack hammer. There's some pretty decent ones around now, the old approach of a compressor and air tools isn't really needed anymore for a lot of tasks, but they use far more energy than a small power tool battery can supply. Close to 2kW and typically used for a considerable period, the normal method of supplying that being from a petrol driven generator. Being able to just plug it into the vehicle would be extremely convenient.

Running lights and so on is another potential use.

Also unrelated to construction but I can see potential use with food catering vans and so on. Typically there's gas cooking and a generator involved but if the van's being towed by a vehicle that can itself supply plenty of electricity well that's an alternative option.

Lots of possible uses like that. There's a lot of portable generators in existence and in practice the typical use scenario is it's sitting on the tray of a ute or it's placed on the ground next to the vehicle. Point being there's a vehicle nearby if it's being used for roadside works, on farm or similar.


----------



## mullokintyre (23 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> No it’s a standard power socket, that you can plug anything into rather than using a generator,  the Cyber truck has a huge 200 KWh battery with  over 1000km of range and yes it does have an option for the rear tray cover to be a solar panel.
> 
> its battery is 15 times larger than Tesla’s power wall, which is designed to run your home over night.



 We must be at cross purposes here. I never actually mentioned a generator. 
When you say its a standard power socket, I presume you are referring to a 240Volt 10 Amp Ac power socket like in the house. The internals of the Tesla are I believe 110 volt DC. 
I understand they already have a DC-DC charger built in to run the non drivetrain systems such as lights, aircon, sound system, power seats, the power management system output screens  etc etc. 
So either you run an inverter to convert  the internal DC to AC 50 HZ, and plug in  AC appliances, such as chargers for battery appliances  etc , or they adopt the idea I suggested that a new breed of DC-DC chargers are developed to produce a range of DC voltage current limited outputs such as the 18Volt DC output that a lot of the Lithium Ion battery powered tools use.  Some devices use 4.8 Volts to charge, some use 12 , and there are probably others i am not even aware of. And of course there is no site at which tradies congregate that does not have at least one radio going.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (23 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> We must be at cross purposes here. I never actually mentioned a generator.
> When you say its a standard power socket, I presume you are referring to a 240Volt 10 Amp Ac power socket like in the house. The internals of the Tesla are I believe 110 volt DC.
> I understand they already have a DC-DC charger built in to run the non drivetrain systems such as lights, aircon, sound system, power seats, the power management system output screens  etc etc.
> So either you run an inverter to convert  the internal DC to AC 50 HZ, and plug in  AC appliances, such as chargers for battery appliances  etc , or they adopt the idea I suggested that a new breed of DC-DC chargers are developed to produce a range of DC voltage current limited outputs such as the 18Volt DC output that a lot of the Lithium Ion battery powered tools use.  Some devices use 4.8 Volts to charge, some use 12 , and there are probably others i am not even aware of. And of course there is no site at which tradies congregate that does not have at least one radio going.
> Mick



Elon has said that they will be standard power points, they have said the purpose is that you can run your equipment from the truck rather than run a generator.

110 Volt in the USA and 220-240 else where.


----------



## divs4ever (24 August 2021)

Explainer-Are lithium-ion batteries in EVs a fire hazard?









						Are lithium-ion batteries in EVs a fire hazard? By Reuters
					

Are lithium-ion batteries in EVs a fire hazard?




					www.investing.com


----------



## qldfrog (24 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> Explainer-Are lithium-ion batteries in EVs a fire hazard?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



https://www.reuters.com/technology/...tl-touts-new-sodium-ion-batteries-2021-07-29/

the solution? not a good news for the LIT companies


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

JOLT to install 5,000 EV charging stations across Australia.








						5000 free fast electric car chargers to be built around Australia
					

The world’s largest investment manager has bought into the Australia electric car charging network, signalling confidence that EVs are set to take off.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
Drivers using JOLT chargers would receive 7 kWh – equivalent to about 45 kilometres of driving – for free, and be charged for power drawn after that. JOLT would also make money from advertising sold on its charging stations.
All the power it sells will be renewable and the installation of the charging points is expected to begin in Sydney in September. JOLT operates charging stations in Adelaide.

Charlie Reid, a managing director of BlackRock’s Global Renewable Power team, said for the world to reach net zero emissions by 2050, the last internal combustion car engine would need to be sold by 2035. He said this would happen globally and in Australia, whatever government policies were in place, as Australia imported its vehicles.
“With the world heading towards fully electric or hydrogen fleets, Australia will follow suit and will follow quickly,” he said.
“What we find in the Australian market is that people do want to purchase electric vehicles, but they don’t have the infrastructure in place in order to support their purchase. And that’s part of the rationale for our investment in JOLT.”
Mr Reid said the global electric car fleet would have to increase from about 12 million to more than 200 million by 2030.
“That creates a $7 trillion investment opportunity and a $1 trillion investment opportunity in infrastructure to support those vehicles,” he said.


----------



## mullokintyre (24 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Elon has said that they will be standard power points, they have said the purpose is that you can run your equipment from the truck rather than run a generator.
> 
> 110 Volt in the USA and 220-240 else where.



Well I guess that means they must be installing Inverters into the vehicles. Do you know if they are made by tesla, or do they source them externally. 
From memory, one of the issues with inverter/generators  and indeed some cheaper inverters  is that they don't produce a pure sine wave.
This doesn't master for most applications, such as tools, lights, etc, but some more sensitive high end appliances  do not like a modified sine wave.
I found this out when we were away two years ago in the van and the 12 volt lead nor the TV broke when the wife wanted to watch something important. (The batchelorette or something like that).. Not to be deterred, I switched on the inverter and connected the TV to the inverter 240 Volt output.  TV did not like it much, there were horizontal or vertical lines flickering through the screen. She was forced to read a book.
Have never used the inverter since as we had no need.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

grandia3 said:


> with wireless electricity currently under research
> maybe we can even charge it while we are waiting for the red light?



That from post number # 20 on page 1 of this thread in 2011.
Now look at the latest news.








						2022 Genesis GV60 to launch with world-first wireless charging system – report
					

Unwieldy electric vehicle cables could soon be a thing of the past. The upcoming 2022 Genesis GV60 will be compatible with wireless charging




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
The upcoming 2022 Genesis GV60 will be compatible with wireless charging infrastructure when it launches next year, according to a new report from _Green Car Reports._
It is believed the groundbreaking technology – which allows the electric SUV's lithium-ion battery pack to be automatically topped up when parked over a magnetised plate – was designed and developed by US-based start-up WiTricity.
The company has previously collaborated with Hyundai, the parent company of Genesis and Kia, on a 2018 concept. It claims its products are capable of charging at rates of up to 11kW entirely through induction.

A spokesperson for Genesis in Australia was unable to comment on the local implications of the report when approached by _Drive_, however it’s likely wireless charging capabilities will initially be exclusive to the Korean market.
A wider international roll-out – including in Australia – is expected at a later date. It is currently unclear if the system will be deployed in the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6, both of which are underpinned by the same E-GMP platform as the Genesis SUV.  
Wireless vehicle charging is not a new concept, however the technology is yet to be offered from the factory in a mass-produced car – BMW and Daimler (parent company of Mercedes-Benz) have been trialling no-contact systems since at least 2017, while representatives for Tesla have also previously discussed the development of a similar project.


----------



## Value Collector (24 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Well I guess that means they must be installing Inverters into the vehicles. Do you know if they are made by tesla, or do they source them externally.
> From memory, one of the issues with inverter/generators  and indeed some cheaper inverters  is that they don't produce a pure sine wave.
> This doesn't master for most applications, such as tools, lights, etc, but some more sensitive high end appliances  do not like a modified sine wave.
> I found this out when we were away two years ago in the van and the 12 volt lead nor the TV broke when the wife wanted to watch something important. (The batchelorette or something like that).. Not to be deterred, I switched on the inverter and connected the TV to the inverter 240 Volt output.  TV did not like it much, there were horizontal or vertical lines flickering through the screen. She was forced to read a book.
> ...



I am unsure whether they are made in house or not.

But Tesla already has the power wall product, that uses a battery to power your house, so that would be the same technology as would be required to run the power sockets in the Cyber truck.

Also, Tesla’s Solar panels no longer need an external inverter if you are also using a power wall, the power wall takes the DC from the solar panels and chargers the batteries directly, and it’s built in inverter converts the DC from the battery/panels into Ac for use in the house or export.

I would not worry about Tesla, they know what they are doing with this stuff, at this stage I would say it’s like breathing for them.


----------



## qldfrog (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That from post number # 20 on page 1 of this thread in 2011.
> Now look at the latest news.
> 
> 
> ...



you do not want a person wearing a pace maker, or even a smartphone walking past that area


----------



## divs4ever (24 August 2021)

qldfrog said:


> you do not want a person wearing a pace maker, or even a smartphone walking past that area



 an interesting question , indeed 

 i remember a discussion over a decade ago  about pacemakers and Wi-Fi ( back when 3G was new )  and the potential mishaps  weren't where you expected  ,  now smart-phones that  may not be a serious ( but MIGHT be costly ) problem


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

qldfrog said:


> you do not want a person wearing a pace maker, or even a smartphone walking past that area



Yes, I was wondering how an expensive watch would go, I'm into watches. The balance springs don't like strong magnetic fields, unless it's an Omega co axial, they use a silicon balance spring.


----------



## Value Collector (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, I was wondering how an expensive watch would go, I'm into watches. The mainsprings don't like strong magnetic fields, unless it's an Omega co axial, they use a silicon mainspring.



The magnet would just be used to align the “charging pad” with the part of the car that accepts the charge wouldn’t it?  So it wouldn’t be a massive magnetic field.


----------



## divs4ever (24 August 2021)

haven't worn a watch in years , one of the few uses i have for the smugphone when i take with me ( and NO  the smugphone isn't welded to my hand or pocket , so often it stays home )

but as (electro) magnetic fields get strong more things will be affected


----------



## sptrawler (24 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The magnet would just be used to align the “charging pad” with the part of the car that accepts the charge wouldn’t it?  So it wouldn’t be a massive magnetic field.



I,ve never looked into it, but i would imagine it is an inductive power transfer, so there could well be a magnetic field present. At 7KW power transfer, it would be a strong magnetic field, whether it is shielded or not I don't know. But I wouldn't be wearing a Rolex, while sitting in a car being charged.  

Just looked it up:
Wireless battery charging uses *an inductive or magnetic field* between two objects which are typically coils to transfer the energy from one to another. The energy is transferred from the energy source to the receiver where it is typically used to charge the battery in the device.
Here is the wiki of it.








						Inductive charging - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## divs4ever (24 August 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The magnet would just be used to align the “charging pad” with the part of the car that accepts the charge wouldn’t it?  So it wouldn’t be a massive magnetic field.



describe 'massive' for a delicate instrument ( or electronic device ) 

 most electronic devices have a shielding mechanism  but that shielding only covers conceivable ranges ( when the device was made )( apart from nuclear blasts )


----------



## divs4ever (24 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I,ve never looked into it, but i would imagine it is an inductive power transfer, so there could well be a magnetic field present.
> 
> Just looked it up:
> Wireless battery charging uses *an inductive or magnetic field* between two objects which are typically coils to transfer the energy from one to another. The energy is transferred from the energy source to the receiver where it is typically used to charge the battery in the device.
> ...



yes but some will 'leak'  to any susceptible device ( like a fine watch ) now will it be a device killer or just alter the accuracy  is a different question  , if you wanted to be totally paranoid you might wonder about the extra cancer risks  as well ( it MIGHT be tiny but there are plenty of big C risks in our current lifestyle  , and one thousand tiny risks could be a life-changer )


----------



## Value Collector (25 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> describe 'massive' for a delicate instrument ( or electronic device )
> 
> most electronic devices have a shielding mechanism  but that shielding only covers conceivable ranges ( when the device was made )( apart from nuclear blasts )



What I was talking about was the magnets used to align the charging pad and the receiver, It wouldn't have to be a big magnet for example the latest iPhones wireless charger uses a magnet to align the two parts.

Check out the below video at the 2.40min mark to see what I mean, thats the kind of thing I thought you guys were worried about, I thought you meant the magnets used to align the charger would be strong enough to mess with your watches.

I am not sure how bit any magnetic field would be from the actual charger, But remember this would be a slow home charger, you probably aren't going to be sitting in the car, and if you were you would have several layers of metal from the battery shielding you


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 August 2021)

To the extent there's any concern about magnetic fields and human health, I'd assume plenty of research would already have been conducted in the context of aluminium smelting.

A truly huge current generates a very strong magnetic field from the potlines (it's enough that it messes with ordinary vehicles if driven inside, sets of all sorts of alarms and lights the dashboard up basically, and will erase magnetic media of any kind). If that was killing the workers well there's enough smelters in the world that there'd be a decent amount of research into it I'd expect.

So far as I'm aware though, in practice it's chemical hazards that are a bigger concern for smelter employees than magnetism.


----------



## divs4ever (25 August 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> To the extent there's any concern about magnetic fields and human health, I'd assume plenty of research would already have been conducted in the context of aluminium smelting.
> 
> A truly huge current generates a very strong magnetic field from the potlines (it's enough that it messes with ordinary vehicles if driven inside, sets of all sorts of alarms and lights the dashboard up basically, and will erase magnetic media of any kind). If that was killing the workers well there's enough smelters in the world that there'd be a decent amount of research into it I'd expect.
> 
> So far as I'm aware though, in practice it's chemical hazards that are a bigger concern for smelter employees than magnetism.



you would be amazed  at what are 'work-place hazards ' NOW ... asbestos . particles from marble bench-tops , radiation from cathode-ray computer screens , mould spores , etc etc etc.

 now sure and aluminum smelting are especially dangerous ( not that anything that deals with molten metal is remotely safe )  , i would imagine just the constant heat exposure would be dangerous ( big strain on the kidneys for one ) so if the worker's kidneys play up first , how would we spot any magnetic field damage on workers already crippled and sick 

 probably a better guideline would be workers on power transmission lines 

 and research tends to be very patchy  , and outcome focused ( whereas genuine research  should be looking for an answer to the unknown , not confirming an idea )

 i would LOVE to see more genuine research in several areas


----------



## qldfrog (25 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> you would be amazed  at what are 'work-place hazards ' NOW ... asbestos . particles from marble bench-tops , radiation from cathode-ray computer screens , mould spores , etc etc etc.
> 
> now sure and aluminum smelting are especially dangerous ( not that anything that deals with molten metal is remotely safe )  , i would imagine just the constant heat exposure would be dangerous ( big strain on the kidneys for one ) so if the worker's kidneys play up first , how would we spot any magnetic field damage on workers already crippled and sick
> 
> ...



To recharge your batteries wirelessly you have an electrically generated magnetic field, true but more exactly a variation of basically a transformer with air between the 2 coils
Any coil or wire: think even electrical motor, or just a wire circuit under the type of power required to charge a car will become a power source, it will burn , heat  and grill all electronics.
You can shield some components with Faraday cage principals: basically a conductive envelope of some sort but here, with the power required by car batteries, we need very strong electo magnetic fields..so i genuinely suspect that would grill all electronics.actually wonder about the car itself..but then the energy "goes" into the battery so probably ok.
On the other hand your snartphone with wireless charger ability will do "pop"😊..or your heart🥴


----------



## mullokintyre (25 August 2021)

Don't forget we as humans spend all our lives within a very large magnetic field that is around earth.
I would expect that evolution has assisted all living things to be able to survive in a magnetic field that changes hourly, dail, yearly, and in the long term, flips its poles north to south.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (25 August 2021)

Ford has increased increased production targets for its F150 Lightning for the second time.
From  Rueters


> DETROIT, Aug 23 (Reuters) - Ford Motor Co(F.N) has doubled its production target for the F-150 Lightning because of strong early demand for the full-sized electric pickup truck ahead of its 2022 launch, and the company plans to spend an additional $850 million to meet that target, several people and suppliers familiar with the plans said.
> 
> The No. 2 U.S. automaker is targeting annual production of more than 80,000 in 2024, up from its prior target of more than 40,000, according to the sources, who asked not to be identified. Shares of Ford rose 1.3% on Monday.
> 
> ...



Still Vaporware like Tesla Cybertruck, but I would have a little more faith in Fords ability to get the trucks out ahead of Tesla.
mick


----------



## Value Collector (25 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Ford has increased increased production targets for its F150 Lightning for the second time.
> From  Rueters
> 
> Still Vaporware like Tesla Cybertruck, but I would have a little more faith in Fords ability to get the trucks out ahead of Tesla.
> mick



As I said before, it doesn’t really matter whether Ford of Tesla get their truck out first, I hope Ford does well.

Tesla is running its own race, building a factory from scratch, to produce a new design from scratch.

The cyber truck (and Tesla’s in general) is such a different product to anything Ford could offer, it’s not like the 400,000 people that have paid deposits for the cyber truck are going to buy a Ford instead.


----------



## sptrawler (26 August 2021)

Dodge, to introduce E.V's








						Electric Dodge muscle car concept to debut in 2022 – report
					

The fuel-guzzling big-bore brand is on its way to ditching petrol engines for good. 2020 Dodge Charger Scat Pack Widebody sedan.2020 Dodge Charger Scat




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
_As previously reported by Drive, the next-generation vehicle could be powered by dual 330kW electric motors, permitting a 0-100km/h sprint time as low as 2.0 seconds – if accurate, this would make it one of the quickest production cars ever sold_.

Can't wait to take my 90 year old mum, for a spin in that. 🤣


----------



## qldfrog (26 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Dodge, to introduce E.V's
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yo might be 90 yourself by the time you can afford one in australia.
We will go to the tracks riding our bicycle  together, freezing in the queensland icy drizzle but happy that CO2 levels are just  1/100th lower  of what they would have been if we commoners were still flying and driving cars, and tell stories to our grand children of faraway lands of New Zealand and Bali


----------



## qldfrog (26 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Don't forget we as humans spend all our lives within a very large magnetic field that is around earth.
> I would expect that evolution has assisted all living things to be able to survive in a magnetic field that changes hourly, dail, yearly, and in the long term, flips its poles north to south.
> Mick



pop was the sound of the pacemaker , strong electromagnetic field are not that great for cells, and actually used to our advantages:
https://techcrunch.com/2021/07/26/a-magnetic-helmet-shrunk-a-deadly-tumor-in-world-first-test/
if it kills the tumor, it just mean it is nasty for cells but more so for the tumor than healthy cells;
But I would not worry too much about EM fields...


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2021)

China releases new E.V, of interest to ASF members is the statements in the article regarding battery materials.








						Haval's small electric SUV to offer new battery tech
					

A new electric SUV from Haval's parent company has been revealed before its official unveiling, complete with advanced battery tech.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
The new electric SUV – badged as the Ora Cherry Cat in its native China – is one of the first production cars to market with a cobalt-free battery. In late 2020, Tesla began offering its Chinese-made Model 3 with LFP batteries, which omit the use of cobalt and nickel. In April 2021, Chinese electric car maker BYD confirmed it was also moved to cobalt-free batteries.
Tesla supplier Panasonic has been successful in significantly reducing the amount of cobalt in its batteries to only 5 per cent, with aims to be cobalt-free within the next three years.

More on the same issue:








						Cobalt, nickel free electric car batteries are a runaway success
					

Few months in, LFP Model 3 already commands 5% of global EV market, counts for 21% of Tesla battery capacity hitting roads–even before key patent expiry next year.




					www.mining.com


----------



## divs4ever (29 August 2021)

yes evolving battery-tech  will be a minefield  for investors in this area , this years minerals might not be desired in 3 or 5 years time 

Electric Spray Paint Could Turn Any Surface Into a Battery​
BY COLIN LECHER | PUBLISHED JUN 28, 2012 8:58 AM  << == note the date !!









						Electric Spray Paint Could Turn Any Surface Into a Battery
					

Lithium-ion batteries work by stacking active ingredients in layers. In your laptop and phone, the layers are stacked into a block, but a new process could make that seem quaint: spray-paint the necessary layers onto any surface like paint, to make an instant battery anywhere.




					www.popsci.com
				




 it would have been interesting to see why this tech didn't progress  especially on disposable products


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> yes evolving battery-tech  will be a minefield  for investors in this area , this years minerals might not be desired in 3 or 5 years time
> 
> Electric Spray Paint Could Turn Any Surface Into a Battery​
> BY COLIN LECHER | PUBLISHED JUN 28, 2012 8:58 AM  << == note the date !!
> ...



That's why I haven't bought into cobalt, too expensive for the gains in energy density, nickel and iron look as though they will be the variables in the battery technology.
Long driving range looks like it will use nickel, short range vehicles will use iron, which will reduce the manufacturing costs and make them more price competitive with small ICE vehicles.
Just my opinion, DYOR as this is a whole new world, for all of us.


----------



## Value Collector (29 August 2021)

divs4ever said:


> yes evolving battery-tech  will be a minefield  for investors in this area , this years minerals might not be desired in 3 or 5 years time
> 
> Electric Spray Paint Could Turn Any Surface Into a Battery​
> BY COLIN LECHER | PUBLISHED JUN 28, 2012 8:58 AM  << == note the date !!
> ...



I think the growth in battery use across so many different applications that there will be a need for all sorts of chemistry.

But saying that, I would feel more comfortable owning Tesla than a company with exposure to a single battery metal, because Tesla will be selling cars and batteries regardless of what new tech changes in batteries.

I do like having nickel exposure by owning BHP though, as a diversified miner, not sure I want to own a one trick pony battery material company.


----------



## qldfrog (29 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's why I haven't bought into cobalt, too expensive for the gains in energy density, nickel and iron look as though they will be the variables in the battery technology.
> Long driving range looks like it will use nickel, short range vehicles will use iron, which will reduce the manufacturing costs and make them more price competitive with small ICE vehicles.
> Just my opinion, DYOR as this is a whole new world, for all of us.



And the new sodium batteries which seems to be in a 3 to 5y horizon would get rid of most of Australian mining resources in cobalt lithium, even nickel...the rush to lit etc will probably be short lived, better be as there is no way near enough of these metals for the expected full ev world in the proposed time frames


----------



## qldfrog (29 August 2021)

qldfrog said:


> And the new sodium batteries which seems to be in a 3 to 5y horizon would get rid of most of Australian mining resources in cobalt lithium, even nickel...the rush to lit etc will probably be short lived, better be as there is no way near enough of these metals for the expected full ev world in the proposed time frames



Obviously, the above based on current population figures...


----------



## mullokintyre (31 August 2021)

Rivian  have a factory built with a  customer testing ground.
Here is a  promotional video of the factory and customers (well they might just be actors) test driving the vehicles.
The plant is completed, with footage of partly completed cars on a production line.
Prior to this, it had been busy building the 10,000 trucks that AMAZON had orderedin 2019.
I gather these people will be first customers to take delivery of production vehicles.
I contacted Rivian last year about getting a production slot, but they said no, despite me suggesting that I would take a LHD vehicle, knowing they currently had no plans to make RHD versions.

Mick


----------



## qldfrog (31 August 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Rivian  have a factory built with a  customer testing ground.
> Here is a  promotional video of the factory and customers (well they might just be actors) test driving the vehicles.
> The plant is completed, with footage of partly completed cars on a production line.
> Prior to this, it had been busy building the 10,000 trucks that AMAZON had orderedin 2019.
> ...



is it a sloping test drive ?  https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/0...pe-was-rolling-downhill-in-promotional-video/
more seriously, quite impressive:
https://electrek.co/2021/08/02/rivian-electric-suv-climb-insane-45-degree-slope/


----------



## mullokintyre (31 August 2021)

> is it a sloping test drive ?



Ha Ha, if you look at the large dirt mound they created on the test range, obviously part of it will be down hill. 
But then you have to get up there to start with!.
mick


----------



## sptrawler (31 August 2021)

This IMO , is the perfect stopgap vehicle for people who live in country Australia, but want the advantages of an EV.








						Nissan to offer new hybrid tech in Australia from next year
					

The E-Power series-hybrid powertrain is expected to debut locally in the 2022 Nissan Qashqai small SUV.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Nissan says it will introduce the first of a new wave of hybrid models in Australia next year, with its E-Power series-hybrid technology available in Australia on certain models from 2022.
Nissan vehicles equipped with the upcoming hybrid option will combine an electric motor with a three-cylinder 1.5-litre turbocharged petrol engine, to keep the lithium-ion battery pack topped up.
The idea is to combine the instant response of an electric motor without range anxiety concerns, says Nissan.

While yet to be confirmed, it’s expected the technology will debut locally in the upcoming 2022 Nissan Qashqai small SUV, due in early 2022 – though it's not clear whether the hybrid will be available at launch.
The tech could also make its way into the next-generation Nissan X-Trail SUV, also due locally in 2022.

“While a traditional hybrid adds battery power to an internal-combustion engine, E-Power delivers an electric vehicle-like driving experience, including exhilarating acceleration and near-silent operation, all while drastically reducing your fuel use and emissions.”


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> This IMO , is the perfect stopgap vehicle for people who live in country Australia, but want the advantages of an EV.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Just the thing we need until there are more charging stations (if there ever are).

I don't see the current Federal government moving very far in the direction of EV's. Very few incentives are being offered.


----------



## sptrawler (31 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Just the thing we need until there are more charging stations (if there ever are).
> 
> I don't see the current Federal government moving very far in the direction of EV's. Very few incentives are being offered.



There is no point, it is the same as mobile phones, when they first came out they only worked around the cities.
Then as the uptake grew, the technology changed and the coverage increased.
Remember the early analogue phones? Imagine if we had rolled out billions of dollars of analogue infrastructure, 10 years later it was shutdown and digital 2g started.
I could roll it out further 3G, 4G now 5G next 6G, but all the ridiculous nonsense about rolling out infrastructure will increase the uptake is crap, uptake will happen when it becomes affordable and sensible. Then the infrastructure will meet the demand.
Even Bas doesn't have an EV, it just doesn't make economical sense, unless you have money to throw away.
IMO that's the reality without the political BS.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 August 2021)

sptrawler said:


> There is no point, it is the same as mobile phones, when they first came out they only worked around the cities.
> Then as the uptake grew, the technology changed and the coverage increased.
> Remember the early analogue phones? Imagine if we had rolled out billions of dollars of analogue infrastructure, 10 years later it was shutdown and digital 2g started.
> I could roll it out further 3G, 4G now 5G next 6G, but all the ridiculous nonsense about rolling out infrastructure will increase the uptake is crap, uptake will happen when it becomes affordable and sensible. Then the infrastructure will meet the demand.
> ...




It makes commercial sense to reduce our dependence on oil which we don't produce, and to go to materials which we do or can produce.

The rest of the world is switching to EV's , albeit slowly, but we will be behind the curve as usual.


----------



## divs4ever (31 August 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It makes commercial sense to reduce our dependence on oil which we don't produce, and to go to materials which we do or can produce.
> 
> The rest of the world is switching to EV's , albeit slowly, but we will be behind the curve as usual.



we produce oil  , and we have reserves  especially if we don't export , what we don't have a abundance of is oil refineries ( in Australia)

 but that is a symptom of modern Australia 

 ( i hold NHC  which sells oil the a small QLD refiner , BPT , BHP busy ridding itself of it's Bass Strait assets to WPL ,  and TEG )

 but EVs should have started at the government fleet level  , so normal folks became familiar with the usefulness and concept 

 instead we got the NBN


----------



## Gunnerguy (1 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting whisper going around at the moment, by 2024 all new cars to be fitted with gps controlled active speed limiters and data storage equipment, that will spell the death knell of high performance ICE engines.  Ah technology just the thing to make life boring. 😂
> Cars will have to have the gps equipment fitted and data loggers fitted, as of 2022, but I believe it isn't until 2024 that it all has to be operational.
> 
> 
> ...



Nanny State


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It makes commercial sense to reduce our dependence on oil which we don't produce, and to go to materials which we do or can produce.
> 
> The rest of the world is switching to EV's , albeit slowly, but we will be behind the curve as usual.



Not really because the charging protocol is changing, there are only two vehicles with V2G two way compatibility on the market at the moment, by 2025 all EV's sold in Australia from my understanding will have V2G ability.
Don't let the ramping drive the investment IMO, we import all our cars, so of course we will be behind the curve.
It is better to be following the curve, albeit slowly, than leading the curve but going in completely the wrong direction IMO.


----------



## divs4ever (1 September 2021)

the curve to Mad Max ??

 you can run an ICE , on alcohol with a bit of extra tuning ( and you can MAKE alcohol )

 we were going the wrong way  when government expenditure didn't lead  and set a baseline acceptance of EVs in the public sector  , so far the local Dominos is light-years ahead of the government with electric-assisted bicycles for deliveries .


----------



## qldfrog (1 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It makes commercial sense to reduce our dependence on oil which we don't produce, and to go to materials which we do or can produce.
> 
> The rest of the world is switching to EV's , albeit slowly, but we will be behind the curve as usual.



You mean replacing petrol we do not have.., a lot but can easily be switched to LPG..that we have a lot..to EV s which we can not build, with short life batteries that we do not built /recycle and can not be built easily here ever due to 0 manufacturing know how ,and chargers that will be based on components all made in China.. components that we can not build either, ever?
Can you even imagine silicon wafers made in Australia?
I like EVs as a move out of  fossil fuels , but it is not a move out of foreign dependence.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Can you even imagine silicon wafers made in Australia?




No, much better to  give China more money to buy weapons.


----------



## qldfrog (1 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> No, much better to  give China more money to buy weapons.



agree, but the real world as it is, not as I wish it to be is:
No chip building ever in australia, just fish and chips..and btw, frozen fish processed in China, even if caught here and in NZ...


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

We obviously have a way to go yet, with autonomous driving cars.








						Toyota suspends autonomous shuttle bus program after vehicle hits pedestrian – UPDATE
					

A Paralympian was left battered and bruised last week, after Toyota's ‘e-Palette’ autonomous transporter failed to stop at a pedestrian crossing. UPDATE,




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> SirRumpole said:
> 
> 
> > The rest of the world is switching to EV's , albeit slowly, but we will be behind the curve as usual.



Maybe it’s just because I drive one myself so I notice them more, But I am seeing Ship loads of Tesla’s on the roads now, and I am noticing other brands too.

A year ago if you saw another Model 3 you would give them a wave, because it was rare, Now there is to many to bother waving, hahaha


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> We obviously have a way to go yet, with autonomous driving cars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, human drivers hit pedestrians quite regularly, so often infact it doesn’t even make the news.

about 3 years ago I witnessed a car run a red light, swerve up onto the foot path, hitting a pedestrian before accelerating down the foot path for about 100M before entering an intersection and crashing into another car.

Turned out the elderly driver blacked out, but the event didn’t even make it into the local news paper, it is was an EV it would have be global news.


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

I wasn't being critical, just pointing out that even a purpose built slow moving autonomous vehicle from one of the World's leading manufacturers, still haven't got it right.
I'm sure they will, the changes and improvements I witnessed, in the instrument trade over my career were nothing short of amazing. So I'm sure autonomous driving vehicles aren't a matter of if, but when.


----------



## Value Collector (1 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I wasn't being critical, just pointing out that even a purpose built slow moving autonomous vehicle from one of the World's leading manufacturers, still haven't got it right.
> I'm sure they will, the changes and improvements I witnessed, in the instrument trade over my career were nothing short of amazing. So I'm sure autonomous driving vehicles aren't a matter of if, but when.



I was just pointing out that even human drivers haven’t got it 100% right yet either.

Autonomous vehicles will obviously be getting better at exponential rates, but we shouldn’t expect them to be perfect ever, there will be crashes, those crashes will make the news, but they in no way are evidence that the vehicles are in safe.


----------



## sptrawler (1 September 2021)

Lotus to join the EV space.








						Lotus to launch four electric cars, including two China-made SUVs
					

The British sports car specialist will pivot its resources to all-electric vehicles from next year, with two SUVs, one sedan and just one sports car due




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## divs4ever (2 September 2021)

US identifies 12th Tesla assisted systems car crash involving emergency vehicle









						U.S. identifies 12th Tesla Autopilot car crash involving emergency vehicle By Reuters
					

U.S. identifies 12th Tesla Autopilot car crash involving emergency vehicle




					www.investing.com


----------



## divs4ever (2 September 2021)

U.S. SEC opens probe into EV company Workhorse Group -letter









						U.S. SEC opens probe into EV company Workhorse Group -letter By Reuters
					

U.S. SEC opens probe into EV company Workhorse Group -letter




					www.investing.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Autonomous vehicles will obviously be getting better at exponential rates, but we shouldn’t expect them to be perfect ever, there will be crashes, those crashes will make the news, but they in no way are evidence that the vehicles are in



On the very same subject an article about Tesla's situation, not that I think it would have any impact on Tesla, just an interesting article.








						Tesla risks $2.7 billion loss on autonomous tech gamble
					

Approximately 350,000 customers have paid upfront for a 'Full Self-Driving' feature that still does not exist beyond a beta testing phase. Tesla stands to




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (2 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> On the very same subject an article about Tesla's situation, not that I think it would have any impact on Tesla, just an interesting article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Version 10 is released in the USA very soon, it gets better with every update, I certainly wouldn’t bet against Tesla on delivering.


----------



## basilio (2 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Version 10 is released in the USA very soon, it gets better with every update, I certainly wouldn’t bet against Tesla on delivering.




Indeed. This is the story on The Driven. Seems to be coming out within  the next couple of months. I think we should wait a sec on the $2.7Billion of clickbait.









						Musk says Tesla owners to get self-driving beta button with v10
					

Elon Musk gives another update for when Tesla owners will be able to download the company's semi-autonomous "Full Self-Driving" (FSD) beta software.




					thedriven.io


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

Hyundai to really take it up to the opposition soon.
Me personally, I think regarding EV's things are going to get a whole lot better in the next three years, on a lot of different levels.  .









						2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5 N spy photos: Performance electric SUV hits the track
					

Hyundai is set to give its first dedicated electric car a shot in the arm, with development of a high-performance N model now underway. An early prototype




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
_Details of what’s powering the prototype remain thin on the ground, however it’s likely the Ioniq 5 will follow a similar path to its twin under the skin, the Kia EV6 GT, which features two upgraded electric motors developing *430kW* and *740Nm*, and capable of a* 3.5-second dash from zero to 100km/h*.
That’s a significant upgrade on the 225kW/605Nm dual-motor powertrain offered in flagship, non-N Ioniq 5 models (due in local showrooms in late 2021), which are capable of a 5.2-second 0-100km/h – comfortably making the Ioniq 5 N the *most powerful and fastest-accelerating Hyundai ever built*, irrespective of what’s powering it_.


----------



## qldfrog (3 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Hyundai to really take it up to the opposition soon.
> Me personally, I think regarding EV's things are going to get a whole lot better in the next three years, on a lot of different levels.  .
> 
> 
> ...



How long before the joy killing brigade adds an acceleration legal limit?


----------



## divs4ever (3 September 2021)

3.5 seconds ??? ( for the joy-kill brigade )


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

qldfrog said:


> How long before the joy killing brigade adds an acceleration legal limit?



Funny you mention that, I actually deleted a further section. Where I said there will be a sweet spot, when the bang for bucks battery to drive these monsters, will have to be V2G compliant, then you get the ultimate car with the ultimate house battery.
It is all about timing, as with shares, there will be a sweet spot my guess is 3-5 years.
Time will tell.


----------



## divs4ever (3 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Funny you mention that, I actually deleted a further section. Where I said there will be a sweet spot, when the bang for bucks battery to drive these monsters, will have to be V2G compliant, then you get the ultimate car with the ultimate house battery.
> It is all about timing, as with shares, there will be a sweet spot my guess is 3-5 years.
> Time will tell.



  fast acceleration should always be balanced by effective braking  , the ability to stop suddenly and safely MIGHT be the limiting point of EVs


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> fast acceleration should always be balanced by effective braking  , the ability to stop suddenly and safely MIGHT be the limiting point of EVs



That is actually the easiest part of the whole equation, they can use regenerative braking, which basically makes the electric motor a generator rather than a motor, so all power goes into charging the batteries at the expense of forward motion.
A simple explanation, just google dynamic braking.


----------



## divs4ever (3 September 2021)

even better i have driven electric fork-lifts  ,  even with the wheels spinning in reverse  you can out-run the braking   once you have a load on 

 some very exotic techniques are required even on dry surfaces 

 maybe i should be investing in AMA  to go with the SUL , SUN and QBE 

 maybe those Tesla crashes are looking at the wrong cause of the collisions


----------



## Value Collector (3 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> fast acceleration should always be balanced by effective braking  , the ability to stop suddenly and safely MIGHT be the limiting point of EVs



EV’s have both regen braking and standard disc brakes, so no issue there, as soon as you lift the foot off the accelerator the car is already regen and as you depress the brake you have both systems operating slowing the car.


----------



## divs4ever (4 September 2021)

i guess time will tell  , i hope EVs drivers will be less inclined to 'ride the brakes ' many  than conventional vehicle drivers 
 going to be exciting times for pedestrians .. maybe i will need a selfie stick for a mirror when crossing those driveways


----------



## divs4ever (4 September 2021)

Victim of Tesla crash in Texas had alcohol level exceeding legal limit









						Victim of Tesla crash in Texas had alcohol level exceeding legal limit By Reuters
					

Victim of Tesla crash in Texas had alcohol level exceeding legal limit




					www.investing.com
				




 unless the vehicle is capable  of being controlled by voice  , all that really matters is , ... that NOBODY seems to have been in the 'drivers seat ' intoxicated  or not  at the time of the accident 

U.S. probing fatal Tesla crash that killed pedestrian









						U.S. probing fatal Tesla crash that killed pedestrian By Reuters
					

U.S. probing fatal Tesla crash that killed pedestrian




					www.investing.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> going to be exciting times for pedestrians ..



This is the one big concern I do have about EV's.

I'd expect that the noise made by combustion engines will in practice have saved many lives over the years.

As someone who goes for a walk routinely, I'm well aware that cars are things I normally hear before seeing them and that's especially so when they're reversing out of driveways in a "blind" situation where the driver can't see an approaching pedestrian or on winding roads with limited visibility. 

That's not an argument against EV's as such. It's an argument against EV's being effectively silent when moving at low speed. Cars are one of the few instances where pollution, in this case noise pollution, does have an upside - the noise of a combustion engine alerts pedestrians and animals to the fact that a vehicle is moving or is likely to move.


----------



## sptrawler (4 September 2021)

A really big problem for deaf people, or those hard of hearing, @Smurf1976


----------



## Value Collector (4 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> This is the one big concern I do have about EV's.
> 
> I'd expect that the noise made by combustion engines will in practice have saved many lives over the years.
> 
> ...



Since 2019, Tesla’s actually do emit a noise when moving at low speeds, check out the below video at the 1 minute mark for an example.

Above those low speed, you will hear tyre noise, so they aren’t silent, they just aren’t obnoxious like ICE cars.

also as the video shows, electric cars do make various other noises that can give hints they are moving or about to move.


----------



## Value Collector (4 September 2021)

If all else fails, Tesla does allow you to customise your Horn sound to what ever you like.you can always do what this girl did, hahaha.


----------



## qldfrog (5 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> A really big problem for deaf people, or those hard of hearing, @Smurf1976



It would be interesting to see the wildlife roadkill tally.
Currently, EVs are mostly city oeople,what will happen once you start having them mixing with deetd wild boars or kangaroos.
Is it worse or better,same?
Never read studies or figures about this.


----------



## divs4ever (5 September 2021)

more grass and forest fires i bet  , i don't expect ole kanga to slide smoothly over the roof  ,  now DOGS might a whole different problem , they seem  to prefer the under-chassis route  .. what chance your battery pack gets damaged  ,  but maybe porky  is bulky enough to be picked by those highly touted sensors  , otherwise it will certainly increase the repair bill   , now bird strikes THAT could be a question   what happens  if the bird takes out the windscreen and you have all those sensors and displays ??

 any ex-fighter pilots here ??


----------



## divs4ever (5 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Since 2019, Tesla’s actually do emit a noise when moving at low speeds, check out the below video at the 1 minute mark for an example.
> 
> Above those low speed, you will hear tyre noise, so they aren’t silent, they just aren’t obnoxious like ICE cars.
> 
> also as the video shows, electric cars do make various other noises that can give hints they are moving or about to move.




 having had several near misses from well tuned BMWs and Mercs ( unfortunately , because it would have triggered compo claims )   an ICE not owned by a hooligan/hot rodder  does not make a lot of noise reversing  , especially if the driveway is concrete , or asphalt


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## Value Collector (5 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> more grass and forest fires i bet  , i don't expect ole kanga to slide smoothly over the roof  ,  now DOGS might a whole different problem , they seem  to prefer the under-chassis route  .. what chance your battery pack gets damaged  ,  but maybe porky  is bulky enough to be picked by those highly touted sensors  , otherwise it will certainly increase the repair bill   , now bird strikes THAT could be a question   what happens  if the bird takes out the windscreen and you have all those sensors and displays ??
> 
> any ex-fighter pilots here ??



I don’t see any reason wild life or other animals pose anymore threat to EV’s than they do to petrol cars.

In fact due to all the safety features and auto braking etc they will probably fair better.

——————

Another interesting thing Tesla has said, is that because Tesla is getting into the business of providing insurance on their vehicles, as data is collected over time about repair costs etc, they are going to be purposefully designing the cars to reduce their repair costs.

so not only will the cars crash less often as auto features are updated, but they will be designed to make them easier to repair, which will lower the cost of insurance.


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## Value Collector (5 September 2021)

Check out this video, The Tesla alarms and warns driver that a deer is on the road, and further along in the video you hear the car alarm because of the pigs on the road before the headlights even hit the pigs.

Qldfrog has me on ignore, so he won’t see this video, or any thing else I post to debunk his silly claims, hence why he sits in his echo chamber believing silly things.


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## divs4ever (5 September 2021)

i hope Tesla owners will remember  that in the future


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## Value Collector (5 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i hope Tesla owners will remember  that in the future



Remember what?


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## divs4ever (5 September 2021)

*** Another interesting thing Tesla has said, is that because Tesla is getting into the business of providing insurance on their vehicles, as data is collected over time about repair costs etc, they are going to be purposefully designing the cars to reduce their repair costs.

so not only will the cars crash less often as auto features are updated, but they will be designed to make them easier to repair, which will lower the cost of insurance.  ***

 one reason i am a permanent skeptic , is because i have been deceived by so many corporations before ( either as a share-holder or customer )

 YES a few companies live up to most of their commitments  , but many fall well short


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## Value Collector (5 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> one reason i am a permanent skeptic , is because i have been deceived by so many corporations before ( either as a share-holder or customer )
> 
> YES a few companies live up to most of their commitments  , but many fall well short



Yeah, But I think more than most other companies, when Tesla says they are going to do something, they do actually give it a red hot go, a lot of the time it takes longer than they first predict, but they get their eventually.

I have owned my car for just on 2 years, and with the regular updates that come through over the wifi, I can tell you the Auto pilot is so much better than it was when I bought the car back in 2019.

In 2019 the car couldn’t recognise traffic lights, now in autopilot it will stop on red and go on green, and even if I am in control, if give a little chime noise if it thinks I haven’t noticed the light has gone green.

it never used to merge on and off the freeways but will now, it never used to over take slower cars but will now.

there is to many improvements to mention, but each update it gets better.


----------



## qldfrog (6 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> *** Another interesting thing Tesla has said, is that because Tesla is getting into the business of providing insurance on their vehicles, as data is collected over time about repair costs etc, they are going to be purposefully designing the cars to reduce their repair costs.
> 
> so not only will the cars crash less often as auto features are updated, but they will be designed to make them easier to repair, which will lower the cost of insurance.  ***
> 
> ...



Tesla remains first a car manufacturer seller and gov subsidies company.
While any insurer arm would benefit from cheaper repairs, the whole of Tesla would benefit from easier to repair using more expensive parts. So just business sense would see the move to ultra expensive parts..able to be switched off on easily to reduce labour cost.,big expensive leggo blocks.
Just business acumen....


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## Smurf1976 (6 September 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Tesla remains first a car manufacturer seller and gov subsidies company.
> While any insurer arm would benefit from cheaper repairs, the whole of Tesla would benefit from easier to repair using more expensive parts. So just business sense would see the move to ultra expensive parts..able to be switched off on easily to reduce labour cost.,big expensive leggo blocks.
> Just business acumen....



I'm thinking this could be an area where a company like Tesla brings an actual revolution.

Much like the Japanese fixed the problem of American and British manufacturers' cars needing an extensive parts network and ridiculously frequent servicing by building better cars that generally didn't need many parts replaced.

End result is they basically did kill the British manufacturers and came pretty close to wiping out the Americans too.


----------



## sptrawler (6 September 2021)

Australia post to tail 20 small electric trucks.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/austr...g-range-they-will-be-assigned-to-short-trips/From the article:
Australia Post is about to add *20 electric delivery trucks* to its fleet, but they will be assigned to short routes due to their limited driving range.
The Fuso eCanter has about the same size battery pack as a Hyundai Kona electric city SUV.
Because of the electric truck’s weight and 3000kg payload, the Fuso eCanter has a *maximum driving range of 100km* when fully loaded – rather than the *480km range* of a similar battery pack in a smaller, lighter passenger car.
A diesel-powered delivery truck of similar size has about 300km of driving range between refills.
It would take about *30 hours* to recharge the Fuso eCanter electric truck from empty using a household power socket, but Australia Post will have a number of fast-chargers that can *reboot the electric trucks in about an hour*.
Australia Post will lease 20 of the electric Fuso eCanter trucks for *six years *from October 2021.
The electric trucks will be returned to Fuso at the end of the six-year lease.


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## sptrawler (7 September 2021)

Hyundai moving along with fuel cells.








						Next Hyundai Nexo hydrogen SUV confirmed, fuel-cell Staria to follow
					

Hyundai's fuel-cell SUV will get another generation, ahead of hydrogen people mover and large SUV models due in the years that follow. The Hyundai Nexo




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Confirmed for launch in 2023, the next-generation Nexo SUV will mark the third generation of Hyundai’s series-production hydrogen fuel-cell technology, following the current Nexo launched overseas in 2018 (and in Australia earlier in 2021) and the earlier ix35 Fuel Cell of 2013.
Also due for launch in 2023 is a “hydrogen-powered multi-purpose vehicle (MPV) model”, widely tipped to be a hydrogen version of the recently-released Staria people mover – with Korean reports pointing to a launch in the second half of the year.
A large SUV powered by hydrogen fuel-cells will follow “after 2025”, though the finer details of the model – including whether it will be a standalone vehicle like the Nexo, or based on an existing model as per the Staria – are yet to be revealed.

Also from Hyundai:








						Hyundai Vision FK previews hydrogen performance family
					

Under the camouflage is a 500kW, rear-wheel drive vehicle said to be capable of 0-100km/h in less than four seconds. Could Hyundai, Kia and Genesis be




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Hydrogen is about to hit the racetrack, as *Hyundai* takes the wraps off the *Vision FK*: a high-performance, rear-wheel drive sports car prototype that runs on hydrogen, has a 500kW fuel cell system, can do 0-100km/h in under four seconds and has a 600km driving range.
But there’s no word on when the Vision FK will go into production.
The Hyundai Vision FK prototype was unveiled today as part of Hyundai Motor Group’s (HMG) Hydrogen Vision 2040 strategy, which sets out the company’s vision for the future of hydrogen energy and a global hydrogen society.


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## sptrawler (8 September 2021)

VW to introduce an affordable EV in 2025, maybe?








						Volkswagen ID. Life concept previews $30,000 electric car due in 2025
					

Volkswagen will launch its cheapest ID-badged electric car yet in 2025 – and this new concept provides a far-fetched preview into how it will look. The




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
The *Volkswagen ID. Life concept *has been unveiled at the Munich motor show, as a *preview of a new €20,000 ($AU32,000) low-cost electric car *due in European showrooms in 2025.
Underpinning the concept car – along with the 2025 production vehicles from Volkswagen and sister brands Cupra and Skoda – is a new 'MEB Eco' platform, a modified, front-wheel-drive version of the brand's latest rear- and all-wheel-drive 'MEB' electric vehicle platform, re-engineered for cost-focused city cars.
Powering the concept is a* 172kW/290Nm electric motor* driving the front wheels – making the ID. Life the first front-wheel-drive car on the MEB architecture – capable of accelerating the show car from *0-100km/h in 6.9 seconds*, or on par with the petrol-powered Volkswagen Polo GTI hot hatchback. Top speed is rated at 180km/h.


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## basilio (9 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm thinking this could be an area where a company like Tesla brings an actual revolution.
> 
> Much like the Japanese fixed the problem of American and British manufacturers' cars needing an extensive parts network and ridiculously frequent servicing by building better cars that generally didn't need many parts replaced.
> 
> End result is they basically did kill the British manufacturers and came pretty close to wiping out the Americans too.




Interesting story on The Driven around Teslas strategy regarding domination of the EV landscape. 
Short story. It won't be just about selling cars but the ancillaries.

_Why is that? Because Tesla sees even bigger profits in the future not from the cars themselves, but from its multiple “ancillary” business possibilities  – software, full self driving, subscriptions, insurance, robo-taxis, and more.

To make this work, Tesla needs as big a fleet as it can get. Design and engineering will deliver a new level of scale at EV factories, possibly at a level that the industry has never seen.

“We see the EV market as a highly deflationary business,” the Morgan Stanley analysts wrote in a recent note._









						Why the price of Tesla electric cars could fall by half in just a few years
					

Tesla EVs may only cost half their current prices in a few years time as production reaches "tera-scale" and revenues focus on subscriptions and other services.




					thedriven.io


----------



## basilio (9 September 2021)

So here is the Electric Ute that ScoMo derided before the last election. No range, no tow, no guts..

_Nearly 20,000 all-electric utes have been secured for the Australian market, through a deal between EV startup Atlis Motors and Australian Manufactured Vehicles (AusMV).

AusMV, which remanufactures vehicles like the Ford F-150 for the Australian market, has a number of electric utes – such as the F-150 Lightning – in its sights, but this is the first confirmed deal to date.

Slated for arrival on Australian roads in 2023, the Atlis XT promises a full swag of features fit for any tradesperson, off-road adventurer or weekend warrior.

And going by the specifications on the company’s website, this is a seriously heavy-duty vehicle.

S*pecs include capacity to tow 15-tonne trailers on a gooseneck, a bed up to 8-feet long, either single or dual motor set up with up to 447kW (600hp) peak power, more than 16,000Nm torque, 0-100km/hr in under 5 seconds and a maximum 250kWh battery with up to 800km claimed driving ran*ge._









						AusMV strikes deal to bring 19,000 all-electric utes with 800km range to Australia
					

Nearly 20,000 all-electric Atlis utes secured by Brisbane-based AusMV for Australian market, in manufacturing and distribution deal.




					thedriven.io
				












						XP Platform | Atlis Motor Vehicles
					

The Atlis XP is both the base platform for our XT pickup as well as a stand-alone product intended for vehicle up-fitters.




					www.atlismotorvehicles.com


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## orr (9 September 2021)

basilio said:


> So here is the Electric Galoot ScoMo ...............the last election. No , no guts..




To both you're above posts Bas...
But first a *warning to readers* ; The following contians small quantities of 'math' in some cases this could lead to, in progression; confusion, nose bleed, seizure and the closer the inhabitant is to Collinsville QLD or Matt Canavan catatonic apoplexy..

In the last week  US EPA test results for fuel efficency the Rivian SUV's ( a Ford F150 competitor) has been released, their approxamation for 'real world' .
The Rivian clocks just under 50kw/h consumption for 100 mile traveled.
Average Domestic  supply charge here in australia today is just over $0.34 per kw/h.
So the cost  to travel 100 miles( 160 kilometers) in the 'F150 equivilent' Rivian  is 50 x $0.34  = $17 au... 
$17 au pesos today will get around 10-11 liters, on a good day that might get you 100km (h/way) in that or a similar vehical.

Luckily no one will be  silly enough to charge a vehical at home with excess  electicity  normally exported  from their solar systems that they now get a rebate of circa $0.05 to 8 cents  or nothing, if it's the case the if your supplier decides that an over supply on the grid demands you be shut out.

I'm talking to people who are financing  vehicals south of %3 ... So a $3000.00 fuel saving per year services the interest on $100K.

Direct application of  these economics on the east coast of Australia will depend, for many, on Latitude( proximity to the ' alt-right' is a detrimentally mutipyling factor). You see this not least  in the confusion betwixt  'virtue signaling' and value capturing.


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## mullokintyre (9 September 2021)

Munro has released a video on the F150 Lightning. 

They were impressed with it .
One of the interesting things they discussed was the  isolation between the battery pack and the vehicle.
This obviously is an important step in the concept of wandering into a ford dealer and doing a battery swap in a somewhat less time than it takes to charge them.
the other interesting thing was the admission by Ford that rather than churn out heaps of the high dollar Platinum and Lariat models, at least 30% were going to be in base model fleet variety.
 Its called looking after your customer base.
And the customer base is very important to ford.
The rednecks country boys that want their truck  will want an American built Ford (or GM Or Ram).
 They are brand loyal, and don't tolerate people telling them their trucks are crap.
Will be interesting to see the sales in a few years.
And I leant that tailgating in America has a different meaning to what we have in OZ.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (9 September 2021)

orr said:


> To both you're above posts Bas...
> But first a *warning to readers* ; The following contians small quantities of 'math' in some cases this could lead to, in progression; confusion, nose bleed, seizure and the closer the inhabitant is to Collinsville QLD or Matt Canavan catatonic apoplexy..
> 
> In the last week  US EPA test results for fuel efficency the Rivian SUV's ( a Ford F150 competitor) has been released, their approxamation for 'real world' .
> ...



Good Analysis, but I must be picky about one thing.
The Rivian is about Ford ranger size, well below the F150 size.
Mick


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## Value Collector (9 September 2021)

orr said:


> To both you're above posts Bas...
> But first a *warning to readers* ; The following contians small quantities of 'math' in some cases this could lead to, in progression; confusion, nose bleed, seizure and the closer the inhabitant is to Collinsville QLD or Matt Canavan catatonic apoplexy..
> 
> In the last week  US EPA test results for fuel efficency the Rivian SUV's ( a Ford F150 competitor) has been released, their approxamation for 'real world' .
> ...




those “real world” figures you state seem pretty high, I know the rivian is a large vehicle, but 50 KWH on my Tesla does over 400 kms.

I don’t understand how 34 cents per KW could be average, here is QLD 23 cents is pretty standard, and I just signed my Father in law up to AGL in NSW for 28cents, so for 34 cents to be average there must be a lot of people over paying.

Also, you can charge you car on the off peak circuit if you set it up, and as you mentioned solar charging is cheap, you can charge your car will solar power you might only normally be paid pennies for and offset litres of fuel that cost dollars.

there is also the lower maintenance of EV’s, and the many other benefits that come along with EV’s.


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## Smurf1976 (10 September 2021)

orr said:


> Average Domestic supply charge here in australia today is just over $0.34 per kw/h.




For the vast majority of Australian homes you can get cheaper than that.

Flat rates in SA will be low 30's cents per kWh but logically you'd be charging an EV using a TOU plan or on Controlled Load at a very much lower price.

Flat rate in other states is generally lower than SA but again you'd use TOU or Controlled Load in practice in most situations.

I don't have an EV but if I did then I'd be charging it at less than half that price.


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## orr (10 September 2021)

I don't spend as much time around the Yacht Club as in days of old; Is the disparaging term still in use for the motor boat club crowd 'Stink boats' ? .... 
In an attempt,  in small measure, be fair to the 'Stink trucks' of today I went with the $0.34/kw/h as lifted from the top of googled, 'Australian domestic electricity cost' ....
If we go with the  better of your scenarios Smurf, the above Rivian is doing 100km for $8.50/ or less, for metered electricity...
The economics just get better  & better.
As do the chances for  Kieth Pitt's and the Minerals Council of cardiac arrrhythmia.

An anicdotal reference; A couple of years back I retired the 77 F100 (built the month Elvis died) to the shed,. With a light load it would use 25 liters of LPG/100km hwy.

The following lnk for EPA Rivian milage stats;








						Rivian R1T Electric Pickup Has EPA-Official 70 MPGe, 314-Mile Range
					

With deliveries supposed to begin this month, the EPA has published official range and MPGe figures for Rivian’s upcoming electric truck and its R1S SUV.




					www.caranddriver.com


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## Smurf1976 (10 September 2021)

orr said:


> If we go with the better of your scenarios Smurf



SA and historically Tas are the states I pay most attention to.

Looking at prices available to anyone, no conditions attached, well in SA you should be able to find Off Peak Controlled Load (OPCL) under 14 cents / kWh and you could use that if you (well, a licensed electrician.....) were to hard wire an EV charger to it. Alternatively for Time Of Use metering prices are more variable but if you look around the retailers then you'll find something similar for the lowest rates 1am - 6am and 10am - 3pm daily.

In Tasmania, Aurora will be more than happy to give you just under 14 cents / kWh from 10am - 4pm daily plus 9pm - 7am and all weekend on Tariff 93 (Time Of Use). Aurora being the overwhelmingly dominant retailer in Tas but not an actual monopoly just extremely dominant.

For anyone not sure, the TOU rates will apply to all consumption at the property during those times so no special work is required with installation just plug it in. Versus an Off Peak Controlled Load rate which applies to specific appliances only and requires permanent installation.

So as an order of magnitude, for 100 kWh to charge an EV you should be able to get that, retail, for $15 or so.

If you managed to use your own solar that would otherwise be fed in well in most case that's worth even less.

So an EV is pretty cheap to charge if you go the right way about it.

Some remote areas etc perhaps not, it might cost serious $, but not for anyone on the main grid and who takes advantage of the cheapest rates available which, given it's a storage device, will for most be easily done when it comes to EV charging. Doesn't matter that you're charging it at 1am etc for most users (and even if you are out at 1am, odds are you're not also out at midday). Remembering of course that the car doesn't need to be charged every single day, just as most people don't buy petrol every day.


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## qldfrog (11 September 2021)

_*Hyundai to Present Next-Gen Hydrogen Technology. *_The South Korean carmaker *Hyundai Motors (KRX:005380) *pledged to present its new hydrogen drivetrain in 2023, with the aim of applying fuel cell systems to all commercial models by 2028, claiming overall costs would be some 50% lower than currently existing technologies.


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## mullokintyre (11 September 2021)

From Kitco




> New York passed legislation this week that requires all cars sold in the state to be zero-emission after 2035.
> 
> John Feneck, CEO of Feneck Consulting, discusses the impacts on the metals sectors with David Lin, anchor for Kitco News.
> 
> For information on the metals that will receive the most demand boost, watch the video above.



Maybe lithium, Nickel, rare earths of any variety.
Mick


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## Lantern (11 September 2021)

England will be first country to require new homes to include EV chargers

The British government will introduce legislation in 2021 that will require all newly built homes and offices to feature electric vehicle chargers in England.



Home and EV chargers in England​Specifically, all new homes and offices will have to feature “smart” charging devices that can automatically charge vehicles during off-peak periods. New office blocks will need to install a charge point for every five parking spaces.

The new law will make England the first country in the world to require all new homes to have EV chargers.

It will also boost confidence in helping those who transition from gas cars to overcome range anxiety, as so many homes in England don’t have off-street parking or garages.

The proposal is part of the movement to rapidly boost the number of chargers across England ahead of the UK’s 2030 ban of new fossil-fuel vehicles. The government originally announced a proposal to mandate that all new homes have a charge point with a parking space in 2019, as _Electrek_ then reported.

Nigel Pocklington, CEO of clean energy company Good Energy, said [via _Business Green_]:









						England will be first country to require new homes to include EV chargers [Update]
					

The British government is going to require all newly built homes and offices to feature electric vehicle chargers in England.




					electrek.co
				




Well I guess someone has to start the ball rolling.


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## Value Collector (11 September 2021)

Rivian water crossing.


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## qldfrog (12 September 2021)

Lantern said:


> England will be first country to require new homes to include EV chargers
> 
> The British government will introduce legislation in 2021 that will require all newly built homes and offices to feature electric vehicle chargers in England.
> 
> ...



More red green tape,more costs, more tons of plastic and copper used for systems which will probably never be used: wrong plug, voltage,amp, wrong software etc, then mandated so you will see plugs on roof top,or in mountain offgrid  chalet, etc etc a bit like wiring homes with Ethernet cable. Or HiFi cabling
Or arriving to a brand new toilet block in the australian alps with disable access ramp after 2h trek....
And all this in the name of the planet.. 
Let the market sort this part out.
What can and should be mandated maybe? is the  ability to provide that extra power to the grid connected.
No point having plugs and not enough juice to have EVs on the grid in specific areas...the details of the plug can be sorted out by the owners when and if needed.after all, we might live in a future with EV powered by filling a tank with green ammonia or even h2 at the servo


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## sptrawler (13 September 2021)

Electric avenue: The NSW plan for 1000 electric vehicle chargers
					

From Broken Hill to Byron, electric vehicle chargers will be rolled out across NSW over the next six years under a state government plan.




					www.smh.com.au


----------



## divs4ever (13 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Electric avenue: The NSW plan for 1000 electric vehicle chargers
> 
> 
> From Broken Hill to Byron, electric vehicle chargers will be rolled out across NSW over the next six years under a state government plan.
> ...



that is assuming the government is elected twice more 

 the next problem  , is how many vehicles  can be charged  simultaneously  per charger  ( they DID say CHARGER not charging station ) ..

 could be a bottle-neck in peak hours  a nice little line  waiting for a 10 minute charge


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## sptrawler (13 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> that is assuming the government is elected twice more
> 
> the next problem  , is how many vehicles  can be charged  simultaneously  per charger  ( they DID say CHARGER not charging station ) ..
> 
> could be a bottle-neck in peak hours  a nice little line  waiting for a 10 minute charge



I think the roll out of private charging infrastructure, will follow the uptake of E.V's, a bit like mobile phones in the early days there was very few towers, now they are wherever there is a buck to be made.
The State Governments will roll out a basic charging network, then as EV's become more common and demand for charging increases, the market will start and put them in. IMO where there is demand for a service, there is always someone willing to supply it, 'at a price'.


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## Value Collector (13 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> that is assuming the government is elected twice more
> 
> the next problem  , is how many vehicles  can be charged  simultaneously  per charger  ( they DID say CHARGER not charging station ) ..
> 
> could be a bottle-neck in peak hours  a nice little line  waiting for a 10 minute charge



99% of people with EV’s will be charging at home, so we will never need as many charging stations as we do petrol stations, Think about it you probably go to the petrol station about once a week, but if you could fill your car up with petrol in your garage for 25 cents a litre, how often would you actually go to the petrol station? Probably never except for when you are on a road trip.

secondly, it’s pretty easy to install charging stations, much easier than building petrol stations, so as demand grows more charging stations will be built, in the last few years the national charging network has grown pretty fast.

If you look at most charging stations, they are empty most of the time, because as I said most ev owners don’t use them often.


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## Value Collector (13 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think the roll out of private charging infrastructure, will follow the uptake of E.V's, a bit like mobile phones in the early days there was very few towers, now they are wherever there is a buck to be made.
> The State Governments will roll out a basic charging network, then as EV's become more common and demand for charging increases, the market will start and put them in. IMO where there is demand for a service, there is always someone willing to supply it, 'at a price'.



Yep, I mean look at Tesla, NRMA (nsw) and charge fox, between those 3 networks you can pretty much drive anywhere.

And if you do want to drive some out of the ordinary, say across the Nullarbor or some where, you can just plug in at caravan parks and motels etc with a little bit of planning.


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## basilio (13 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I think the roll out of private charging infrastructure, will follow the uptake of E.V's, a bit like mobile phones in the early days there was very few towers, now they are wherever there is a buck to be made.
> The State Governments will roll out a basic charging network, then as EV's become more common and demand for charging increases, the market will start and put them in. IMO where there is demand for a service, there is always someone willing to supply it, 'at a price'.




*Absolutely.  *When you think about it  setting up an EV  recharging outlet is so much simpler and cheaper than a petrol station. Yes you have to have a power supply but after you install the charging units there are minimal costs. 

The big deal ,IMO, will be ensuring adequate power supply from external sources or perhaps the addition  of an onsite big battery to even out demand and supply .


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## Value Collector (13 September 2021)

basilio said:


> *Absolutely.  *When you think about it  setting up an EV  recharging outlet is so much simpler and cheaper than a petrol station. Yes you have to have a power supply but after you install the charging units there are minimal costs.




Tesla in the USA even have a mobile charging station that they can roll out when there is a demand spike along certain road trip routes during thanksgiving etc.

it is battery powered and provides an additional 14 charging bays, there is so many options, their larger charging stations are already battery powered, and have solar to supplement the electricity imported from the grid.


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## over9k (13 September 2021)

Probably bad for tesla, good for whichever chinese companies are biggest/most favoured. Off the top of my head, NIO is a winner.


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## Smurf1976 (13 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> 99% of people with EV’s will be charging at home



People will charge at home but I'm not at all convinced about the 99% figure.

Apartments are generally unsuited unless the body corporate puts in chargers.

Rental properties in general there's no incentive for the owner to do anything and many won't have power outside.

Homes without off street parking are another and that's extremely common in the inner suburbs.

Personally I'd be charging at home but I can see that there'd be quite a few for whom it's impractical.

One of the energy companies was trying to come up with some figures on it. I haven't heard anything on that recently but I'd expect it's well over 1% will have issues charging at home.


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## Smurf1976 (13 September 2021)

basilio said:


> The big deal ,IMO, will be ensuring adequate power supply from external sources or perhaps the addition of an onsite big battery to even out demand and supply .



If I was going to invest in a service station with a view to installing EV chargers there at a future time in place of at least some of the petrol pumps then first thing I'd be doing is investigating the local electricity network in detail.

What you want is a HV (High Voltage) distribution feeder running past so 11 or 22kV in most states. That'll facilitate future installation of a transformer to supply however many EV chargers you want without too much difficulty so long as the upstream supply is adequate.

Versus having access only to the LV network at 400V / 230V which will be seriously limiting.

Suitable (has HV supply):









						Google Maps
					

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




					www.google.com.au
				




Not suitable (has 400V / 230V supply only)









						Google Maps
					

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




					www.google.com.au
				




Put simply, what you need is the 3 wires at the top and 4 at the bottom. The three at the top are HV.

Note the above locations are randomly chosen and not necessarily a good place for an EV charger in other ways. Also that's not where I live in case anyone's wondering.


----------



## sptrawler (13 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> If I was going to invest in a service station with a view to installing EV chargers there at a future time in place of at least some of the petrol pumps then first thing I'd be doing is investigating the local electricity network in detail.
> 
> What you want is a HV (High Voltage) distribution feeder running past so 11 or 22kV in most states. That'll facilitate future installation of a transformer to supply however many EV chargers you want without too much difficulty so long as the upstream supply is adequate.
> 
> Versus having access only to the LV network at 400V / 230V which will be seriously limiting.



If you look at google maps smurf, Pinjarra and Mandurah, there has been three brand new large apron servo's built in the last two years, there has also been a few servo's closed in the town of Pinjarra.
The only factors that I can put it down to is, the area is very central for travel both on the SW highway and the Forrest highway they are half way between both, whether coming from the lower SW, lower mid west or Bunbury region and travelling to Perth.
Also the Collie transmission lines run within about 3 klm of all the new servo's.
It isn't as though the servo's were needed, there were plenty in Mandurah and Pinjarra which are only 20klm's apart, also 90% of the traffic goes straight down the new Forrest highway the rest is local traffic to the Alcoa refinery, so why build them?
My guess is they are gearing up.


----------



## Value Collector (14 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> People will charge at home but I'm not at all convinced about the 99% figure.
> 
> Apartments are generally unsuited unless the body corporate puts in chargers.



There is nothing engineering wise stopping body corps installing chargers, or at least power points.

my main point is that we should never expect there to be the same number of EV chargers as there are Petrol bowsers, they just won't be needed, but sure in places where there is a lot of apartments, or along popular road trip routes there will be ev chargers popping up.




> Rental properties in general there's no incentive for the owner to do anything and many won't have power outside.




All you need is a standard power point, I charge mine using a standard 240V power point.

But if you own an EV, and you do enough Km's every day that a standard power point won't cut it, I am sure a land lord wouldn't have objections to you paying to install a charger.



> Homes without off street parking are another and that's extremely common in the inner suburbs.



For them they can use public charging stations, or chargers at their work place.


----------



## Value Collector (14 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> If I was going to invest in a service station with a view to installing EV chargers there at a future time in place of at least some of the petrol pumps then first thing I'd be doing is investigating the local electricity network in detail.
> 
> What you want is a HV (High Voltage) distribution feeder running past so 11 or 22kV in most states. That'll facilitate future installation of a transformer to supply however many EV chargers you want without too much difficulty so long as the upstream supply is adequate.
> 
> ...




You could just have a large battery pack that slowly chargers with off-peak supply and solar, and that runs the chargers.

That way you don't have to be drawing large amounts from the grid at any one time.

If you do have say 6 cars charging at once, it could be drawing from the gris as well as the battery and solar, then at the times the charging bays are empty the battery recharges.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> There is nothing engineering wise stopping body corps installing chargers, or at least power points.



There isn't from an engineering perspective but a look at any real estate, tenancy etc forum will find no shortage of problems where air-conditioning or even things like clothes lines can't be installed not for any engineering reason but because the body corporate says so.

The idea of installing something on common property will cause some of these people to flip their lids, of that I'm pretty confident. 

That's a human problem, not a technical one, but I've been made aware of enough horror stories in regard to other issues to be thinking that there's a very real chance it's going to be significant. 

Much the same with rentals. It's hard enough getting some landlords to fix broken taps or ovens as it is without trying to get them to put a power point in the garage.

There are situations where it'll work obviously and there are good landlords and so on but there's quite a few shockers out there who aren't going to make this even slightly easy.


----------



## Value Collector (14 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> There isn't from an engineering perspective but a look at any real estate, tenancy etc forum will find no shortage of problems where air-conditioning or even things like clothes lines can't be installed not for any engineering reason but because the body corporate says so.
> 
> The idea of installing something on common property will cause some of these people to flip their lids, of that I'm pretty confident.
> 
> ...



Horror stories are all well no good, but they are generally the exception, and as EV’s gain in popularity, if your rental house or apartment doesn’t have options for charging you will probably be shooting yourself in the foot as a land lord.

mom the other hand in the UK it will soon be mandatory that all new houses and apartments built have Ev charging available.


----------



## qldfrog (14 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> There isn't from an engineering perspective but a look at any real estate, tenancy etc forum will find no shortage of problems where air-conditioning or even things like clothes lines can't be installed not for any engineering reason but because the body corporate says so.
> 
> The idea of installing something on common property will cause some of these people to flip their lids, of that I'm pretty confident.
> 
> ...



And why would a body corporate install power plug in common area for a few ev use ,and who is to pay the actual power bill.difficult technically to have a cheap solution.i would oppose and should anyone sane sharing the cost of recharge between a building's owners..so you need to install a paying recharge station..with added complexity.very rarely do you have a building wide internet or wifi nowadays
EVs to replace current ice is suited to EV recharging on h2 or ammonia at the servo then using that H2/ammonia in a "battery" (cell) to power the motor
The Tesla current model is niche and not suited to mass usage..reserved for the fews. Or in a taxi shared model.
Always back to Reset "they will own nothing but be happy"
Curent EV model is perfect for that
The removal of individual transport but for the elite with their own EVs or better flying EV cars as the plebs are heading to the tube with face nappies on..


----------



## PZ99 (14 September 2021)

Still looking for an EV with a 1000k range 

Getting closer....









						Battery discovery could propel EVs from Sydney to Melbourne on one charge
					

Australian researchers say they've opened the path to a new generation of batteries that could allow an electric vehicle to drive from Melbourne to Sydney on a single charge.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## divs4ever (14 September 2021)

UK will program electric car chargers to TURN OFF for 9 hours a day amid fears demand will cause blackouts​








						UK will program electric car chargers to TURN OFF for 9 hours a day amid fears demand will cause blackouts -- Sott.net
					

Charging points for electric cars will be preset to turn off for nine hours a day amid fears they could cause blackouts with the government pushing the switch from diesel and petrol. From May, every new charger will automatically not function at...




					www.sott.net
				




 and EVs aren't even widespread in the UK , yet


----------



## qldfrog (14 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> UK will program electric car chargers to TURN OFF for 9 hours a day amid fears demand will cause blackouts​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Both laughing, crying and saying i told you so...
We are in a world of dumb wits, narrative first, and leaders/decision maker with limited overall  technical and sciences culture at its lowest.
So we see the CO2 banging, push for ev and renewable w/o taking reality into account, and covid reactions without sciences..the lot pushed by various lobbies both political and economics..a decadent civilisation is no fun..


----------



## sptrawler (14 September 2021)

I like the statement that people will be pushed to charge during off peak times e.g 10pm to 6am,because it is cheaper,  when everyone is charging during off peak I don't think it will be cheap anymore.
The reason off peak is cheap is because no one is using it, when everyone is using it, why would it remain cheap?
It wont have any bearing on EV take up, but it is a misnomer IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (14 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> UK will program electric car chargers to TURN OFF for 9 hours a day amid fears demand will cause blackouts​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s not that they have a problem now, they are just future proofing the network, it’s a smart thing obviously, we do the same thing will our hot water systems.


divs4ever said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...electric-cars-preset-turn-NINE-HOURS-day.html​


----------



## divs4ever (14 September 2021)

well to the UK , where civilization is slipping back to the  Stone Age (because bronze will create too many greenhouse gases )

 i am guessing you will not be allowed to charge up in Winter because everyone will need the heating to resist freezing to death


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 September 2021)

Exactly what I've been on about for a very long time now.

Left to their own devices and with no major incentive to do otherwise, most will plug the car in when they arrive home sometime late afternoon or early evening.

There are dead easy solutions to that but they need to actually be implemented otherwise we've got a rather huge problem coming very soon. It's 100% solvable but it has to actually be solved, the default outcome is not suitable.


----------



## Value Collector (14 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I like the statement that people will be pushed to charge during off peak times e.g 10pm to 6am,because it is cheaper,  when everyone is charging during off peak I don't think it will be cheap anymore.
> The reason off peak is cheap is because no one is using it, when everyone is using it, why would it remain cheap?
> It wont have any bearing on EV take up, but it is a misnomer IMO.



They can manage the load with EV’s a lot more than they can with people’s heaters, kitchens and TVs etc and spread demand so it’s always below the penalty rate peak levels, Higher utilisation rates can also actually make things cheaper provided it doesn’t hit super high levels.

Higher utilisation will increase profitability of producers, and also increase investment in things like wind, if you know that you are going to be able to sell the wind power you generate through out the night without penalty of negative rates because there is a large controlled demand ready to soak up supply you will be willing to invest in more in generation than you would if you knew there was no market between 10pm-6am


----------



## divs4ever (14 September 2021)

i disagree it is planning for failure 


 it is expecting frequent brownouts , because they can't adequately plan for future power generation  ( BTW  , i hope the program  is flexible enough for daylight saving  and normal time )

SMART  was solar hot-water systems ( in places like Australia  )


----------



## Value Collector (14 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> well to the UK , where civilization is slipping back to the  Stone Age (because bronze will create too many greenhouse gases )
> 
> i am guessing you will not be allowed to charge up in Winter because everyone will need the heating to resist freezing to death



Most people will be turning heaters, lights and tvs off when they head to bed, that’s when the cars can begin charging, managed correctly you can have a nice steady demand load through the night that the electricity companies will love, especially because they could adjust the demand you match windy periods etc.

Electricity companies have huge capital invested in generation, higher utilisation rates through the night make these capital investments more productive, and lower the total cost per KWH produced per year.


----------



## divs4ever (14 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> They can manage the load with EV’s a lot more than they can with people’s heaters, kitchens and TVs etc and spread demand so it’s always below the penalty rate peak levels, Higher utilisation rates can also actually make things cheaper provided it doesn’t hit super high levels.
> 
> Higher utilisation will increase profitability of producers, and also increase investment in things like wind, if you know that you are going to be able to sell the wind power you generate through out the night without penalty of negative rates because there is a large controlled demand ready to soak up supply you will be willing to invest in more in generation than you would if you knew there was no market between 10pm-6am



 so more Chinese-made ( and designed ) nuclear power stations ( 'cos the British ones are unaffordable , and possibly inferior )

 of maybe made by the Chinese/French  alliances which are becoming popular


----------



## Value Collector (14 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i disagree it is planning for failure
> 
> 
> it is expecting frequent brownouts , because they can't adequately plan for future power generation  ( BTW  , i hope the program  is flexible enough for daylight saving  and normal time )
> ...




They have smart solar car charging too.

check out this charger, it’s designed in the UK.


----------



## divs4ever (14 September 2021)

not a lot of sun in the UK during winter  maybe a mini water turbine using the rain might work better  and reuse the water on the vege garden


----------



## SirRumpole (14 September 2021)

A spoonfull of sugar may get an EV from Sydney to Melbourne on one charge. (More time to fall asleep at the wheel   









						Battery discovery could propel EVs from Sydney to Melbourne on one charge
					

Australian researchers say they've opened the path to a new generation of batteries that could allow an electric vehicle to drive from Melbourne to Sydney on a single charge.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Most people will be turning heaters, lights and tvs off when they head to bed, that’s when the cars can begin charging, *managed correctly* you can have a nice steady demand load through the night that the electricity companies will love, especially because they could adjust the demand you match windy periods etc.



Emphasis mine.

As a concept it's 100% doable as you say. It's a fully solvable problem and quite easily.

The key is in actually doing it however since the "default" option for consumers is they just plug it in and it starts charging straight away. For rather a lot of ordinary users that'll be sometime circa 6pm give or take a bit which is the concern.

100% doable in theory but in practice consumers on flat rate pricing, and that's the majority, won't do it without a push of some sort be that a financial one or by means of automation etc or at least some serious education.


----------



## qldfrog (15 September 2021)

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-pivoting-away-hydrogen-fuel-183000075.html
Narrative always wins


----------



## Value Collector (15 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Emphasis mine.
> 
> As a concept it's 100% doable as you say. It's a fully solvable problem and quite easily.
> 
> ...



The chargers that are mandatory in new houses being  built in the UK are controllable by the grid operator.

Also the default is to “Plug in” when you get home, but Tesla’s only begin charging at the time you program, for example I plugged mine in yesterday at 3pm, but it won’t begin charging till 9am this morning, because that is the time I set it for.


----------



## Value Collector (15 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> A spoonfull of sugar may get an EV from Sydney to Melbourne on one charge. (More time to fall asleep at the wheel
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am not sure why people are obsessed with getting from Sydney to Melbourne on a single charge.

Sure it gives bragging rights, but if you chose a car with 600km range instead of 1000km, you could make the trip with just one charging stop of about 15 mins, and you are going to stop for that long anyway. So your battery would weigh 200kgs less saving you $1000’s over the life of the vehicle and cost you $1000’s less in purchase price.


----------



## Value Collector (15 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> not a lot of sun in the UK during winter  maybe a mini water turbine using the rain might work better  and reuse the water on the vege garden



If you ever drive round the UK you will see they have a lot of wind turbines, As I said am sure the owners these turbines would love to have a market to be able to sell their wind power they make through the night, adding another 9 hours of soils demand each day makes wind tunings a more viable investment.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure why people are obsessed with getting from Sydney to Melbourne on a single charge.
> 
> Sure it gives bragging rights, but if you chose a car with 600km range instead of 1000km, you could make the trip with just one charging stop of about 15 mins, and you are going to stop for that long anyway. So your battery would weigh 200kgs less saving you $1000’s over the life of the vehicle and cost you $1000’s less in purchase price.




Until the charging stations are up to scratch, people will be worried about finding a free (as in not occupied) charging point on a long trip and the situation will get worse if the take up of ev's increases. A longer range has to be a selling point. I don't know if the "sugar battery" is practical but a longer range will be an attractive incentive to buy an ev.


----------



## Value Collector (15 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Until the charging stations are up to scratch, people will be worried about finding a free (as in not occupied) charging point on a long trip and the situation will get worse if the take up of ev's increases. A longer range has to be a selling point. I don't know if the "sugar battery" is practical but a longer range will be an attractive incentive to buy an ev.



There is plenty of chargers along the Sydney to Melbourne route, in fact the route between Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide is complete.

My Tesla is lowest range Tesla, but now even I drive past charging stations on that route because there is more than enough along the way, where as 2 years ago There was only just enough, so you would stop at every one.

it’s not something you have to worry about, as more cars get put on the road, more charging locations pop up, it’s just like petrol stations popped up the more petrol cars got sold.


----------



## Value Collector (15 September 2021)

Let me explain what I meant when I said I used to have to stop at every charger.

Driving from my house north of Brisbane to Sydney, I used to have to stop at every Tesla charger because If I skipped the one at Ballina I wouldn’t have had enough charge to make it to Coffs Harbour (I probably would just make it, but not worth the risk) same story with port Macquarie.

However now before I get to Ballina I pass chargers just outside Brisbane and the Gold Coast, and I can drive past Ballina because there is a new charger further down the freeway at Maclean, and because of the Maclean one I can pass Coffs Harbour and carry on to port Macquarie, and I can skip new castle because there is another new one on the central coast.

But, in reality you can stop at any of the chargers you like, you just let your bladder or stomach decide, if you need to pee or eat, you just stop at the nearest charger and top up you battery as you empty you bladder.

Usually you end up making more charging stops that you actually need because the humans in the car want you to stop, not because the battery needs you to.


----------



## divs4ever (15 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> If you ever drive round the UK you will see they have a lot of wind turbines, As I said am sure the owners these turbines would love to have a market to be able to sell their wind power they make through the night, adding another 9 hours of soils demand each day makes wind tunings a more viable investment.




 in winter the wind has a habit of springing up around 2 pm  , we will see if they do enough ,


----------



## sptrawler (15 September 2021)

As we said a few years back, the oil companies will have to adapt, or lose their market share. This is one of the reasons I get annoyed with the media and others, demanding the taxpayer subsidies the EV concept.
It actually is an inevitability, so why take money of taxpayers some of who can't afford it, to put in place infrastructure that the private sector will have to put in, or go out of business.








						Shell Wants To Own The Gas Stations Of The Future
					

Shell wants to offer electric vehicle charging, hydrogen and biofuels at its sprawling network of retail sites. And rather than generate its own electricity, Shell's plan suggests it may end up buying much of it in wholesale power markets.




					www.forbes.com
				



From the article:
_Anglo-Dutch oil giant Royal Dutch Shell’s plan to reach net zero emissions by 2050, unveiled last month, focuses heavily on selling low-carbon electricity, biofuels and hydrogen directly to households and electric vehicle owners.


The strategy marks a contrast with that of other European oil majors, who in their own plans to reach net-zero emissions have vowed to accumulate vast amounts of renewable power generation capacity in the form of wind and solar assets.

“Shell is a very big brand — that’s what more than 110 years of being a company does for you,” said Oswald Clint, a senior analyst at investment bank Sanford Bernstein, in an interview. “They can apply that in building out their network” of fuel stations.

To achieve net-zero emissions by 2050, including emissions from its own products, Shell has linked the salaries of 16,500 staff to a series of carbon reduction targets. It wants to reduce the carbon intensity of its energy products by 6-8% by 2023, 20% by 2030, 45% by 2035 and 100% by 2050, against a 2016 baseline.

Part of that plan relies heavily on carbon offsets, including spending an expected $100 million per year on “nature-based solutions” such as planting trees.

But the real substance of the plan involves bulking up its retail operations and overhauling them to focus on sales of renewable electricity directly to households and electric vehicle owners. “We aim to be a leading provider of clean Power-as-a-Service,” the company said.

Shell’s plan to focus on the retail side of the renewables business would build on its existing strength as a retail provider of gasoline and diesel. Shell already owns 46,000 retail sites and wants to increase that to 55,000. (“Retail sites” refer to gas stations, a spokesperson said when reached by phone, although the company didn’t respond to further questions.) In tandem, it wants to grow its electric vehicle charging network from 60,000 charge points currently to around 500,000 by 2025.
Together, the increased number of electric vehicle chargers plus expanded network of retail sites gives Shell a way to continue to bundle its products together, much as it currently sells its own gasoline at Shell-owned retail sites while also earning revenue from other businesses on the forecourt. Shell would also likely aim to sell biofuels and hydrogen at these retail sites: it plans to increase the amount of biofuels and hydrogen in the transport fuels it sells to 10%, from 3% currently.

“This is a forecourt [retail site] of the future, with electric vehicle charging, hydrogen will be there, liquefied natural gas, and then you’ve got a restaurant and a shopping area,” said Sanford Bernstein’s Clint. “Charging will look very different from how we think about it today._”

One of the new servo's that I mentioned between Mandurah and Pinjarra in W.A, that is very close to the transmission lines from the SW, is a Shell servo, as @Smurf1976 and I have been saying for some time, infrastructure will be modified to adapt to changing system requirements.


----------



## divs4ever (16 September 2021)

GM tells Bolt EV owners park away from vehicles in decks









						GM tells Bolt EV owners park away from vehicles in decks By Reuters
					

GM tells Bolt EV owners park away from vehicles in decks




					www.investing.com
				




 maybe they should just rename the model to Blazer or Bonfire  or something like that


----------



## mullokintyre (16 September 2021)

From ABC NEWS


> Two electric car drivers have launched a High Court challenge to Victoria's tax on electric vehicles, arguing the state's levy is unconstitutional.
> Victoria introduced the levy in July, which charges road users based on how much they travel. Electric vehicle drivers are charged between 2-2.5 cents per kilometre.
> 
> Lawyers representing two drivers have filed documents with the High Court, arguing Victoria does not have constitutional power to introduce the tax.
> ...



Its an interesting argument,  but the two people might think carefully about what they wish for,
Should they lose the case,  options open to the govt are to charge an annual fee regardless of road usage.
or they could demand that the feds raise the levy for them.
As for trying to argue that they are 'doing the right thing",  thats got nothing to to do with the law. 
Its the vibe ya know.
Only works in movies like "The Castle".
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (17 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> From ABC NEWS
> 
> Its an interesting argument,  but the two people might think carefully about what they wish for,
> Should they lose the case,  options open to the govt are to charge an annual fee regardless of road usage.
> ...



What is funnier is that these guys most certainly voted Labour in both state and federal, and now complain as they got their wish in state but thankfully not national.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 September 2021)

Ford F150 lightning  seems to have been well received by the rednecks.
FromCNBC


> Ford Motor is expanding hiring to increase production capacity for its all-electric F-150 Lightning pickup as it begins building prototypes of the electric vehicle.
> 
> The Detroit automaker said Thursday that it plans to invest an additional $250 million and add 450 jobs across three Michigan facilities — including the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center, which is building the truck — to double annual production capacity for the vehicle to 80,000 units. That's up from 40,000 vehicles a year ago.
> 
> ...






> Ford has started initial pre-production of its electric F-150 Lightning pickup truck at a new plant in Dearborn, Mich.
> General Motors is expected to get its EV pickup to market next, with the GMC Hummer EV rolling off assembly lines this fall. EV start-up Lordstown Motors and Ford are expected to follow next year, along with Tesla, which recently pushed back deliveries of its Cybertruck from this year to late 2022.
> 
> Preproduction models, or prototypes, are used by companies for testing and validation ahead of assembling vehicles that are used for certification before actual production for consumers.
> ...



Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (17 September 2021)

Was  looking at some of the home charger installations.
This quote from Evolution Australia I found kinda interesting.


> It may be counter intuitive but sometimes it's advantageous to charge your electric car at a slower rate. Here’s three of the best reasons and their advantages.
> 
> Fast charging is known to dramatically reduce the the life expectancy of your battery. As a rule you should be limiting the times you fast charge your car to only when you need to. However, on some vehicles it's not possible to slow down the charge (from inside the car), which could be considered a design oversight. As a workaround, on a small number of EVSEs/Chargers the charge rate is selectable right down to 6A! This feature is enabled on all our portable EVSE models.
> 
> ...



This dovetails with what I was taught many years ago, but in relation to wet cell lead acid batteries. But according to these guys, it seems to apply to the current crop of lithium batteries.
So the trade off becomes one of quick convenience versus longer battery life.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (17 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Was  looking at some of the home charger installations.
> This quote from Evolution Australia I found kinda interesting.
> 
> This dovetails with what I was taught many years ago, but in relation to wet cell lead acid batteries. But according to these guys, it seems to apply to the current crop of lithium batteries.
> ...



Faster charge means higher amps and more heat..and heat is the nasty in battery..by the same concept, it does not help your batteries to go hard on them 
in the same way as mpg listed by constructors are not really representative of real life driving, i have the feeling we might get bad surprises for some owners as to battery life expectancy...


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> This dovetails with what I was taught many years ago, but in relation to wet cell lead acid batteries. But according to these guys, it seems to apply to the current crop of lithium batteries.



The only bit I'll disagree with in the quote you referenced is that it's counter intuitive.

To those familiar with either batteries or power grids, it's the expected outcome - slow charge is always the preferred option and the last thing we need is the equivalent of "download a movie in 30 seconds" type thinking or marketing of chargers in a manner comparable to 1980's audio equipment with big numbers prominently stuck on it.

For the vast majority of users there's no reason why an EV battery ought to charge quickly. Park the car, plug it in an leave it. 

I guess that sounds a bit technically elitist but I couldn't think of any other way to put it really. It's not my intent to come across that way but it's the expected situation technically, it's no surprise at all. Fast charging isn't kind to batteries and drawing all the energy over a short period is also problematic on the upstream supply side. Everyone benefits from a slow charge while the car is parked.

Fast chargers have a place for public charging facilities but not in the average household driveway.


----------



## sptrawler (17 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I guess that sounds a bit technically elitist but I couldn't think of any other way to put it really. It's not my intent to come across that way but it's the expected situation technically, it's no surprise at all. Fast charging isn't kind to batteries and drawing all the energy over a short period is also problematic on the upstream supply side. Everyone benefits from a slow charge while the car is parked.
> 
> Fast chargers have a place for public charging facilities but not in the average household driveway.



It depends who wants to use the battery and when @Smurf1976 , a fast charge at excess times and a slow charge at high demand times(6-9), then a fast discharge at high demand times(6-9), works for some.


----------



## Value Collector (18 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Was  looking at some of the home charger installations.
> This quote from Evolution Australia I found kinda interesting.
> 
> This dovetails with what I was taught many years ago, but in relation to wet cell lead acid batteries. But according to these guys, it seems to apply to the current crop of lithium batteries.
> ...



Basically all “home charging” is considered slow charging, and and as I have said before that’s what most people do.

Also, even if you do super charge all the time, it will degrade your battery faster, but not by a crazy amount (atleast in a trsla. The battery will still probably outlast the life of the vehicle.

If you are a professional driver or someone that drives so much they have to super charge every day, by the time you need to replace the battery you would have saved between $50k and $70k on fuel and maintenance costs, so it’s not a big deal.

Tesla’s do automatically begin slowing charge rates on batteries that have degraded.


----------



## Value Collector (18 September 2021)

Here is a Tesla model S that has done 720,000 Km (450,000 miles).

It’s operation was worst case scenario for a battery, It was supercharged multiple times per day, because it was used commercially transporting passengers on long distance trips between LA - Las Vegas - Palm Springs - San Diego, and the operators tried maximise range so allowed the car to go between 100% and 0% state of charge daily which is not good (batteries last longer if you keep them between 20% and 90%.

over its life it had its first battery replaced due to a fault, and the second battery replaced after it wore out.

total maintenance costs over the 720,000 miles were $27,000 US dollars, including the battery replacement.


----------



## basilio (18 September 2021)

That was great story on the 720k Tesla. Totally thrashed but still going great. In fact better than original with the software upgrades.

I think it's worth pointing out that Teslas build quality has significantly improved since 2015.  Allegedly 2021 builds are even more reliable.


----------



## basilio (18 September 2021)

Versatile electric cargo van. 1.1 tonne payload .  Change bodies and size in 15 mins. Charge off it's own roof or solar panels or power supply.  Capable of powering a business or home (Bi directional transfer).  Cost Mid 50K

Built in South Australia. First trials in November 2021









						ACE-EV unveils X1 Transformer electric van that can power a home or business
					

ACE-EV plans to trial X1 Transformer, a proposed new electric van, with bidirectional charging by the end of 2021.




					thedriven.io


----------



## basilio (18 September 2021)

A personal reminder of the ongoing cost savings of electric cars.  Basically $3.5 -$4k a year on fuel, Rego and servicing

BYD is also launching a new platform for it's electric cars.  promises 1000 klm range .









						The staggering cost savings from driving an electric vehicle
					

I have owned my Model 3 for two years. I am saving huge amounts on registration, fuel costs and maintenance.




					thedriven.io
				












						BYD promises 1,000km range in new EV platform and "Ocean-X" concept
					

BYD launches new “e-platform 3.0” for electric vehicles and its Ocean-X mid-sized sedan, with the promise of a 1,000km range.




					thedriven.io


----------



## basilio (18 September 2021)

Ad for Mercedes Electric car.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 September 2021)

basilio said:


> A personal reminder of the ongoing cost savings of electric cars.  Basically $3.5 -$4k a year on fuel, Rego and servicing
> 
> BYD is also launching a new platform for it's electric cars.  promises 1000 klm range .
> 
> ...



 And a reminder of the "hidden costs".
the new Mazda Electric Mazda 3 will struggle against its competitors.
My wife drives a Masda CX5 and absolutely loves it.
I am not so sure she would be enamoured with the  new EV mazda offering.
The Mazda MX30 electric vehicle  has a paltry 35.5 KWH battery pack which delivers 107 107KW and 271 NM of torque to punch it out.
Thats about the size of battery that I am putting in my glorified electric volkswagon.
The Kia Ev has  65 KWh of life and  455 km range.
At RRP of $65,490, the Mazda is  not cheap.
The Hyundai Ionic has a  range of 373 Kms, and its RRP is only $49,970.
But the Mazda's real competitor is the petrol powered Mazda 3 which has an RRP of $41k.
You could buy a lot of petrol for that $24,500 difference.
At 2 bucks  a litre, and 10 litres per 100kms, its around 2545,000 kms of driving.
Mick


----------



## Smurf1976 (18 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It depends who wants to use the battery and when @Smurf1976 , a fast charge at excess times and a slow charge at high demand times(6-9), then a fast discharge at high demand times(6-9), works for some.



For some individuals sure.

At the overall level though there aren't many users who actually need to fast charge a car when it's parked at home, and the idea of using the battery to feed back into the grid at high demand times is a slow rate discharge not a fast one.

Distributors are thinking in terms of taking 5kW out of the car and in the context of a 50 - 100 kWh battery that's a slow rate discharge.


----------



## sptrawler (18 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> For some individuals sure.
> 
> At the overall level though there aren't many users who actually need to fast charge a car when it's parked at home, and the idea of using the battery to feed back into the grid at high demand times is a slow rate discharge not a fast one.
> 
> Distributors are thinking in terms of taking 5kW out of the car and in the context of a 50 - 100 kWh battery that's a slow rate discharge.



I was more thinking along the lines of, it works for the distributor, I wasn't thinking it would work so well for the consumer.

Quote: a fast charge at excess times and a slow charge at high demand times(6-9 *PM*), then a fast discharge at high demand times(6-9 *AM*), works for some.

My bolds added


----------



## Value Collector (18 September 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> And a reminder of the "hidden costs".
> the new Mazda Electric Mazda 3 will struggle against its competitors.
> My wife drives a Masda CX5 and absolutely loves it.
> I am not so sure she would be enamoured with the  new EV mazda offering.
> ...



There should be lower maintenance costs also on the EV.


----------



## sptrawler (20 September 2021)

The dealers seem to be following the Mercedes and Tesla format, of selling E.V's direct to customers.








						Hyundai cuts dealers out of Ioniq 5 electric car sales
					

Hyundai has asked dealers to refund deposits and redirect customers to a website so it can sell its new electric car online at a fixed, non-negotiable price.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (23 September 2021)

Not purely an electric car issue, but an example of what is being developed along the AI and autonomous driving technology road.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyot...m.au&utm_content=article_1&utm_medium=partner
From the article:
*Toyota USA* has filed a patent for* in-car camera technology designed to record traffic violations committed by other vehicles*. 

The exact types of traffic infringements are not mentioned, though it’s understood Toyota's system focuses on intersections with traffic lights, to catch drivers running a red light.
According to patent documents, the autonomous system can identify and capture a traffic violation on camera, capture identifying markings (such as the vehicle's registration plate), and then send the photo and data about the infringement to a server. It is not yet clear whether the images will be sent to law enforcement for further action.


----------



## qldfrog (23 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Not purely an electric car issue, but an example of what is being developed along the AI and autonomous driving technology road.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyot...m.au&utm_content=article_1&utm_medium=partner
> From the article:
> ...



would do well here: dob and dobber :-(


----------



## Value Collector (23 September 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Not purely an electric car issue, but an example of what is being developed along the AI and autonomous driving technology road.
> 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyot...m.au&utm_content=article_1&utm_medium=partner
> From the article:
> ...



Hahaha, I hope our own cars don’t start snitching on us every time we fail to use the indicator.


----------



## Gunnerguy (23 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Check out this video, The Tesla alarms and warns driver that a deer is on the road, and further along in the video you hear the car alarm because of the pigs on the road before the headlights even hit the pigs.
> 
> Qldfrog has me on ignore, so he won’t see this video, or any thing else I post to debunk his silly claims, hence why he sits in his echo chamber believing silly things.




Play nicely girls please.


----------



## qldfrog (23 September 2021)

watch out EV owners if you do not feed back what you should properly:
some precedent made with the big boys
https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...over-power-grid-promises-20210923-p58u1b.html
just to prove that we are still in a nascent battery world..much to learn still


----------



## divs4ever (23 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Hahaha, I hope our own cars don’t start snitching on us every time we fail to use the indicator.



 Biden has mandated built-in breathe-testers ( i assume only for alcohol abuse )

 so quite possible 

 what could have been a good idea ( EVs  ) has become a nanny-state monitoring tool 

 watch the movie  'Demolition Man ' for a clue where we could be going


----------



## Value Collector (24 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> what could have been a good idea ( EVs  ) has become a nanny-state monitoring tool



"Nanny state" features can be part of any vehicle, having an electric drive chain rather than a petrol one doesn't make any difference.

Even if the electric drive chain was never invented, it is highly likely that the trend for cars to become smarter (hence able too have more digital bells and whistles) would still exist.


----------



## Value Collector (24 September 2021)

divs4ever said:


> Biden has mandated built-in breathe-testers ( i assume only for alcohol abuse )



No he hasn't.

The bill put before congress only says that at some stage in the future, cars should be fitted with technology that can "*Passively" *monitor the drivers ability and attention to make sure the driver is not impaired in any way or drunk.

It doesn't mention breathe-testers at all, never watch Fox News my friend.

Many cars are already starting to have features like this anyway, for example Teslas have a camera that monitors the drivers eyes and head to detect if the driver is not paying attention or is distracted. 

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/...biden/65-ab85122d-c5c6-42ce-8b12-fcb5a24c0278


----------



## divs4ever (24 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> "Nanny state" features can be part of any vehicle, having an electric drive chain rather than a petrol one doesn't make any difference.
> 
> Even if the electric drive chain was never invented, it is highly likely that the trend for cars to become smarter (hence able too have more digital bells and whistles) would still exist.



 yes BUT the EVs are relatively new  so more regulations  can be wedged in  without manufacturers  crying ( rightfully ) extra manufacturing  disruptions  etc etc 

 if fact you might be amazed what features  have been discreetly  added to limousines  and some luxury vehicles  for up to a decade 

 however  now we are talking about  the family runabout  , and the base level commercial vehicle


----------



## divs4ever (24 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> No he hasn't.
> 
> The bill put before congress only says that at some stage in the future, cars should be fitted with technology that can "*Passively" *monitor the drivers ability and attention to make sure the driver is not impaired in any way or drunk.
> 
> ...



worked for NWS for over 12 years  , i know better than to watch FOX and anything  on SKY is taken with a truckload of salt , 

 after many decades of interaction  with the advertising industry ( OOPS media )  ,  i see the advertorials  , and then research from there if interested  ,  

 you just assume because i am anti-Leftoid i must consume the other side of the two-party paradigm 

 i DO find it funny that the ex-member for Delaware is suddenly  standing on a 'fair tax policy ' 

 amazing times coming


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Even if the electric drive chain was never invented, it is highly likely that the trend for cars to become smarter (hence able too have more digital bells and whistles) would still exist.



Compare any mainstream car from 2000 versus a comparable current model vehicle.

The 2000 car has no ABS brakes indeed it may even still have had drum brakes on the rear, it has no electronic stability control of any sort, it has at most a single airbag for the driver, the heating and air-con is manually controlled, winding down the windows requires doing exactly that - winding by hand, and it would outright fail any current crash safety test.

That's the change is just a single generation of cars indeed there are still year 2000 cars in use today.

Go back to 1980 and you got an engine with points and a carb, a transmission with not many gears in it, a heater (no cooling function) and an AM radio that buzzed like crazy every time you drove under a power line. The car had effectively no safety features other than seat belts and a horn and even the belts would only help if you adjusted them correctly given that was still manually done. Environmentally well it literally blew lead out the exhaust and left behind a cloud of asbestos dust every time the brakes were used.

Cars are far, far better now with or without changing the means of powering them. Even the most basic new car sold in Australia today is better than any car was 40 years ago.

Whilst there's arguably some novelty value in obsolete technology, and I've had more fun in bare bones cars than anything modern, there's no way I'd want one as a daily driver. Just as I wouldn't choose to go back to listening to music on cassette tapes or watching TV on a tiny screen with a set of rabbit ears on top. Old tech seemed good at the time, since we didn't have anything better, but no way I'd choose to go back to it.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 September 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Compare any mainstream car from 2000 versus a comparable current model vehicle.
> 
> The 2000 car has no ABS brakes indeed it may even still have had drum brakes on the rear, it has no electronic stability control of any sort, it has at most a single airbag for the driver, the heating and air-con is manually controlled, winding down the windows requires doing exactly that - winding by hand, and it would outright fail any current crash safety test.
> 
> ...




I totally agree, except that old tech in terms of cars anyway are so simple that someone of average abilities can work on them without the need for a engineering degree, so they become more of an emotional decision to own one rather than an intellectual one.

I still like going to see old cars when their clubs visit our towns and I look at a well loved classic car in a different way that I would look at an overly technological modern car.

Classic cars have a high human input which can be respected, modern ones are built by impersonal robots and are tools rather than a member of the family.


----------



## Value Collector (24 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I totally agree, except that old tech in terms of cars anyway are so simple that someone of average abilities can work on them without the need for a engineering degree, so they become more of an emotional decision to own one rather than an intellectual one.
> 
> I still like going to see old cars when their clubs visit our towns and I look at a well loved classic car in a different way that I would look at an overly technological modern car.
> 
> Classic cars have a high human input which can be respected, modern ones are built by impersonal robots and are tools rather than a member of the family.




Same with Horses, ICE won’t disappear completely, they will just become the realm of hobbyists, every now and then a steam train passes by owned by a steam club, but it would be silly to allow the coal burners to enter cities everyday transporting passengers.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Same with Horses, ICE won’t disappear completely, they will just become the realm of hobbyists, every now and then a steam train passes by owned by a steam club, but it would be silly to allow the coal burners to enter cities everyday transporting passengers.




Of course. New tech does the everyday stuff but there is still a place for the 'good olde days'.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 September 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Same with Horses, ICE won’t disappear completely, they will just become the realm of hobbyists, every now and then a steam train passes by owned by a steam club, but it would be silly to allow the coal burners to enter cities everyday transporting passengers.



Perhaps worth mentioning just how far we've come in a relatively short period of time.

Steam locomotives were still current technology within the lifetime of quite a few people still living today - they remained in service well into the 1960's in many places including Australian cities.

Such is the extent and pace of change with technology that in developed countries at least, steam trains only exist as a tourist thing today.

FWIW the last one I went on was this - the track's steep enough that the loco is at the back, pushing the carriage ahead, rather than at the front pulling it. Not my video however:


----------



## qldfrog (24 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I totally agree, except that old tech in terms of cars anyway are so simple that someone of average abilities can work on them without the need for a engineering degree, so they become more of an emotional decision to own one rather than an intellectual one.
> 
> I still like going to see old cars when their clubs visit our towns and I look at a well loved classic car in a different way that I would look at an overly technological modern car.
> 
> Classic cars have a high human input which can be respected, modern ones are built by impersonal robots and are tools rather than a member of the family.



I think it is not so much that you do not need a phd but that the parts arenot micro chip obsolete within 5y.
When you actually need to rely on a machine: real 4wd in real remote area, farm ute, etc you do not want some hill assist, or chip control injection.
You want full control and fixing ability.
Sure abs are great etc..but my neighbour camping var is spending its time at the dealer.EU pollution regulation means there is an O2 sensor..from what i understand which get damaged by our crappy local fuel.
When the chip fails, the vehicle goes in emergency reach the nearer dealer..drop to 40 or 50km..on the freeway wo warning and then 1k repair..with new part flown from europe..great for the planet i am sure..or everyone must have seen already the toyota hilux epidemy of failures smoking worse than a coal steam engine..
KIS ....often the best reliability factor..


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 September 2021)

qldfrog said:


> crappy local fuel



Diesel in Australia is no different to other developed countries and far cleaner than many. So any diesel engine manufacturer has no excuse on account of fuel.

For petrol, the permitted sulfur content and aromatics permitted is higher in Australia than most developed countries plus also a lower oxygen requirement than some especially the US.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 September 2021)

Sorry to detract from electric vehicles (it won't happen again I promise   ) but this article seems appropriate.









						Australia's iconic old cars 'left to die' immortalised by car enthusiasts
					

Married couple Steph McCarthy and Maurice Linehan are scouring Australia's wettest and driest landscapes to preserve our iconic vehicles, while car clubs race against time to keep history alive.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Value Collector (24 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course. New tech does the everyday stuff but there is still a place for the 'good olde days'.



Of course, I love visiting the steam museum.


----------



## basilio (27 September 2021)

*This is a game breaker in cheap personal electric mobility.*

OLA and Indian company has launched   an electric motor scooter. Top speeds are 90kph or 115kph.  Range (two battery sizes)  121-181k.

Price. This is the head turner.  *$1350 !*!! 

The company has sold 80,000 in the first day and plans to produce 10 million vehicles a year including export.  It is also building a massive charging network across India.









						Ola's 70 mph electric scooters selling like hotcakes, two every second
					

Ola’s S1 and S1 Pro electric scooters are off to a massive start after the first day of sales, with CEO Bhavish Aggarwal claiming that the company is selling two electric scooters every second. The original launch didn’t go quite as smoothly after a glitch in the order process delayed pre-orders...




					electrek.co
				







__





						Ola Hypercharger Network | World's largest electric two wheeler charging network
					

100000 charging points across 400 cities | With the world's largest electric scooter charging network, ride anywhere with confidence.




					book.olaelectric.com


----------



## basilio (27 September 2021)

GM's Chevey Volt electric car has had some serious problems with batteries catching fire.  In fact they have recalled all of their Volt cars and replaced the batteries.

However one customer who actually had a battery fire has ended up $12k in the hole with GM saying he can sue them.. Hard ball.

Ugly story which GM should never have allowed to happen.









						GM leaves owner owing $12K after Bolt EV battery fire last year
					

A previous owner of a Chevy Bolt EV is still making car payments a year after he lost his car due to a GM-confirmed battery fire. This is his story.




					electrek.co


----------



## basilio (28 September 2021)

Australia does produce electric motor scooters. Compare the price and the specs








						Inventory
					

The Fonzarelli Model lineup are all electric, built with the performance you need to get around the urban jungle. An easy, gliding sensation gives you a unique feeling of freedom. Negotiate city traffic from 0 to 50 km/h in 3.9 seconds. The Fonzarellis have a range of up to 50 and 100...




					www.fonzmoto.com


----------



## basilio (30 September 2021)

Rolls Royce has announced it is going all electric.  Road testing of the new all electric model is starting around the world.
.


----------



## mullokintyre (30 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Rolls Royce has announced it is going all electric.  Road testing of the new all electric model is starting around the world.
> .




Probably a bit out of my preferred price range.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (30 September 2021)

basilio said:


> Rolls Royce has announced it is going all electric.  Road testing of the new all electric model is starting around the world.
> .





Zee Germans lost ze war but wun ze peace eh ?

Stupid Englanders .


----------



## qldfrog (30 September 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Zee Germans lost ze war but wun ze peace eh ?
> 
> Stupid Englanders .



Merkel made sure the win was only temporary....


----------



## Wedgy (1 October 2021)

I agree the world needs to change to renewable energy, but I believe EV's could create a shortage of electricity in Australia. Why, they need to be charged, when will most people want to charge their EV's? When they are not using them, at night, at their home when solar not available. This will require either base load or stored energy:

excerpt from: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/resear...lectric-cars-will-challenge-state-power-grids

_SEATTLE — When Seattle City Light unveiled five new electric vehicle charging stations last month in an industrial neighborhood south of downtown, the electric utility wasn’t just offering a new spot for drivers to fuel up. It also was creating a way for the utility to figure out how much more power it might need as electric vehicles catch on.

Seattle aims to have nearly a third of its residents driving electric vehicles by 2030. Washington state is No. 3 in the nation in per-capita adoption of plug-in cars, behind California and Hawaii. But as Washington and other states urge their residents to buy electric vehicles — a crucial component of efforts to reduce carbon emissions — they also need to make sure the electric grid can handle it.

The average electric vehicle requires 30 kilowatt-hours to travel 100 miles — the same amount of electricity an average American home uses each day to run appliances, computers, lights and heating and air conditioning.

A U.S. Department of Energy study found that increased electrification across all sectors of the economy could boost national consumption by as much as 38% by 2050, in large part because of electric vehicles. The environmental benefit of electric cars depends on the electricity being generated by renewables.

So far, states predict they will be able to sufficiently boost power production. But whether electric vehicles will become an asset or a liability to the grid largely depends on when drivers charge their cars.

Electricity demand fluctuates throughout the day; demand is higher during daytime hours, peaking in the early evening. If many people buy electric vehicles and mostly try to charge right when they get home from work — as many currently do — the system could get overloaded or force utilities to deliver more electricity than they’re currently capable of producing._

And, https://www.greencarreports.com/new...leads-the-world-in-per-capita-electricity-use

_Norway's aggressive push for electric-car adoption is leading to record electricity consumption. Between 8:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m., five million Norwegians used as much electricity as 10 million residents of neighboring Sweden, according to Bloomberg.

Those factors have contributed to Norway having the second-highest electricity consumption per capita in the world, according to the World Bank, surpassed only by Iceland. Norway expects electricity consumption to grow 30% by 2040, Bloomberg reported._

In Australia it is my view that we need to make sure we "don't throw our the baby with the bath water", i.e. if we shut down too many fossil fuel power stations or make them unprofitable by putting pressure on electricity prices, giving the owners of power stations no option but to shut them down. We may not have the energy available when we need it.


----------



## divs4ever (1 October 2021)

Australia is more likely  to throw out the baby  whilst off-loading the bathtub at the dump

 we are already well aware  that they  cannot plan ahead effectively  ( roads , NBN/phone systems , rail transport  even their own government web-sites etc etc )  why should we expect that they do an adequate job this time ( in energy planning )

 of course some 'conspiracy theorists ' might suggest this is all on script to make it easier to replace governments  with a global central control organization  to make things run smoother  ( despite plenty of evidence that more administrative layers hamstring productivity )


----------



## Sean K (1 October 2021)

Wedgy said:


> I agree the world needs to change to renewable energy, but I believe EV's could create a shortage of electricity in Australia. Why, they need to be charged, when will most people want to charge their EV's? When they are not using them, at night, at their home when solar not available. This will require either base load or stored energy:




Maybe we'll be able to go to the car park of HMAS Stirling or Kuttabul and hook up to a nuclear sub for a charge?


----------



## Wedgy (1 October 2021)

kennas said:


> Maybe we'll be able to go to the car park of HMAS Stirling or Kuttabul and hook up to a nuclear sub for a charge?



Being an ex-submariner, on O-boats the worlds best diesel submarine at its time, your comment is quite appropriate. Maybe that is the governments plan, nuclear power by stealth.


----------



## Sean K (1 October 2021)

Wedgy said:


> Being an ex-submariner, on O-boats the worlds best diesel submarine at its time, your comment is quite appropriate. Maybe that is the governments plan, nuclear power by stealth.




I thought about changing to Navy for a moment. I liked the idea of wearing overalls to work and having dolphins on my uniform.


----------



## over9k (1 October 2021)

No.


----------



## wayneL (1 October 2021)

Yes, but it won't be the fault of EVs. It will be because of the cluster***k of green policy making.

Electricity supply is already very bloody dodgy in the area that I live... It doesn't take much of an extra load to shut the whole system down.

One of my clients owns a pie shop and has had to invest in a very large backup generator to keep her business going through repeated and random shutdowns.... And that's going on already, nevermind EVs.


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 October 2021)

Short answer is it depends how it’s done.

As a concept it’s much the same as one that most would be familiar with, that being road traffic itself.

Add more load at a time of low demand and it’s inconsequential.

Add more load to the peak and here comes a collapse.

With EV’s it’s dead easy to charge most of them off-peak but suffice to say I have concerns as to that bit not being what happens in practice. It could well go wrong with the implementation despite being easy as such.

Reason being most consumers are on flat rate tariffs - there’s zero incentive to avoid charging at the peak beyond “do the right thing”.

The solution to that, forcing Time Of Use pricing or some other means, may well bring down a government or two to get it done, the politics are painful to say the least. 

It’s one of those things that’s dead easy from a purely scientific / technical / engineering perspective but becomes far more complicated when social, political etc issues need to be considered.

Much like a lot of problems really - they’re easy to solve from a technical perspective but other factors are in the way.


----------



## over9k (1 October 2021)

This was already gone over in the EV thread. Probably worth a merge @Joe Blow


----------



## Joules MM1 (7 October 2021)




----------



## mullokintyre (7 October 2021)

Evolution Australia has release a video of another rather odd conversion to an EV.
In this case its an MGB which will be exported to the US so the owner can tour the US in it.
Not sure an electric MGB would be high on my list of potential USA touring vehicles, but each to his own.
Bloke must have more money than sense.


Mick


----------



## qldfrog (7 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Evolution Australia has release a video of another rather odd conversion to an EV.
> In this case its an MGB which will be exported to the US so the owner can tour the US in it.
> Not sure an electric MGB would be high on my list of potential USA touring vehicles, but each to his own.
> Bloke must have more money than sense.
> ...




Mick,
I once owned a 1966 MGB, spoke wheel luggage carrier, what a look..but 
...made in the UK..should I say more..anyway, when kid came, this silliness was quick over
But i would say that a proper EV in an mgb, redoing brake and steering, and could be quite nice..ohhh and add a folding manual or automatic rooftop....not a tent


----------



## sptrawler (7 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Evolution Australia has release a video of another rather odd conversion to an EV.
> In this case its an MGB which will be exported to the US so the owner can tour the US in it.
> Not sure an electric MGB would be high on my list of potential USA touring vehicles, but each to his own.
> Bloke must have more money than sense.
> ...




When I was a young bloke, I rebuilt my older brothers MGB' motor and gearbox, even as a starry eyed youngster, I recognised they were a POS. 🤣


----------



## mullokintyre (7 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> When I was a young bloke, I rebuilt my older brothers MGB' motor and gearbox, even as a starry eyed youngster, I recognised they were a POS. 🤣



Too true. My father was  a panel beater, and he hated MG's because one fell off the blocks of wood he had perched one on when he was an apprentice.  We kids always thought that it affected his brain as the rear end of  it landed on his head.
I remember him telling one of my friends who bought an MG Midget around for him to have a look at.
His exact words were 
"Son, there are three things in this world that you need to treat with the complete suspicion.
1. Teetotallers.
2. Vegetarians.
3. Any vehicle that was built with Lucas Electrics."

I rest my case.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (7 October 2021)

I know this will probably upset the one who Collects Value,  but a Tesla truck was built long before the Cyber truck was unveiled.
The following video shows its  build stages.
And it was done by a girl.


Not sure if Elon would approve, but there it is.
Mick


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> made in the UK..should I say more..



A UK car being converted to electric.

Hmm.....

Please someone assure me that the word "LUCAS" will not be found on any of the parts used for this conversion, and preferably not on anything else in the car either.


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> 3. Any vehicle that was built with Lucas Electrics."



Ah, I see it's already been mentioned.....

Yes, the Prince Of Darkness.


----------



## Value Collector (7 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I know this will probably upset the one who Collects Value,  but a Tesla truck was built long before the Cyber truck was unveiled.
> The following video shows its  build stages.
> And it was done by a girl.
> 
> ...




As I Tesla shareholder, I approve. Not sure why you think that would upset me , a sale is a sale.


----------



## sptrawler (11 October 2021)

Australia to produce an electric motor bike.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/austr...m.au&utm_content=article_3&utm_medium=partner
From the article:
New automotive start-up brand Savic Motorcycles is set to become Australia's first high-performance and zero-emissions electric motorcycle manufacturer.
The Victorian-based brand – founded by ex-Ford Australia optimisation engineer Dennis Savic – has announced it's raised $AU1.14 million worth of funding, green-lighting production.
More than half of the co-investment has come from the federal government’s Advanced Manufacturing Growth Centre – a taxpayer-funded acceleration and investment tank for Australian businesses.
Savic Motorcycles claims it will introduce three versions of its 'C-Series' electric motorcycle by late 2022, with the entry-level variant expected to start from $12,990.
Called Savic 'C-Series Omega', the cheapest motorcycle in the range is planned to feature a 25kW electric motor, with the brand claiming performance akin to a 300cc petrol-powered equivalent.
Savic also mentions that it will introduce a 40kW 'C-Series Delta' and 60kW/200Nm 'C-Series Alpha' model at the same time, with list pricing expected to start from $16,990 and $23,990 respectively (before on-road costs).


----------



## mullokintyre (11 October 2021)

Bloombergs have been one of many orgs pushing for the introduction of EV's. However, they have brought up an issue that they claim will put a dampener on EV'. the enormous US road toll.
FromBloombergs


> Electric vehicles recently received a massive boost in the U.S., with a promotional spin by President Joe Biden on the White House lawn, and a non-binding federal mandate to make half the vehicles sold in the U.S. electric by 2030.
> 
> A number of car companies have piled on with their own electrification goals, and are committing to make even some of their most carbon-intensive vehicles electric.
> The development of vehicles like the 9,000-pound GMC Hummer EV and 6,500-pound Ford F-150 Lightning are seen by some as a win for fighting climate change, with the potential to convert the large population of truck-loving Americans.
> ...



The problem with this analysis is that the issue will be the same regardless of whether trucks are powered by electricity or Internal combustion engines. The trucks have been getting bigger  before the electrification came along. 
Having to tow ever larger loads (including the ever increasing obesity of the occupants)  with all the ancillaries of electric braking, sway control, plus the sheer increase in trailer size  is the issue rather than electrification.  
When travelling in the US, I was always amazed at seeing a fifth wheeler trailer towing loads of 10 to fifteen thousand pounds.
Towing lore says you never tow  something weighing more than your tow rig,  so you need an F350 or F450 to tow these behemoths.
For all the increase in weight of batteries, electric motor(s) battery management system and motor control, you decrease the weight of engine, transmission,  transfer case,  exhaust, drive shafts,  differential, the weight of fuel and fuel tanks and pumps, pressure regulators , DPF, catalytic converter etc etc.
Mick


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The trucks have been getting bigger before the electrification came along.



Road safety is one of the relatively few things where I'm actually in favour of government intervention in markets.

The roads have ended up an "arms race" of ever larger vehicles to the point that even someone with zero need for anything other than passenger transport feels the need to drive a monster truck just for their own safety.

I doubt my comments will be popular but it's one of the few areas where government intervention is warranted in my view. Otherwise, well we're going to end up with everyone driving an actual truck just to go to the shops.


----------



## moXJO (12 October 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Road safety is one of the relatively few things where I'm actually in favour of government intervention in markets.
> 
> The roads have ended up an "arms race" of ever larger vehicles to the point that even someone with zero need for anything other than passenger transport feels the need to drive a monster truck just for their own safety.
> 
> I doubt my comments will be popular but it's one of the few areas where government intervention is warranted in my view. Otherwise, well we're going to end up with everyone driving an actual truck just to go to the shops.



Some of these things are a pain to park. These yank Ute's are ridiculously large


----------



## over9k (12 October 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Road safety is one of the relatively few things where I'm actually in favour of government intervention in markets.
> 
> The roads have ended up an "arms race" of ever larger vehicles to the point that even someone with zero need for anything other than passenger transport feels the need to drive a monster truck just for their own safety.
> 
> I doubt my comments will be popular but it's one of the few areas where government intervention is warranted in my view. Otherwise, well we're going to end up with everyone driving an actual truck just to go to the shops.



What do you propose? 

Bigger vehicles are only worse when they hit a smaller one. They're way, way, WAY more survivable in single vehicle accidents. 

A whole fleet of bigger cars would actually be way safer than a fleet of smaller ones.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 October 2021)

over9k said:


> A whole fleet of bigger cars would actually be way safer than a fleet of smaller ones.



Not for pedestrians, road workers, anyone on two wheels, people in buildings that are run into and anyone else not in a comparably large vehicle they're not.

There's also the economic impact. If everyone needs a great big car just for their own safety well that's a huge economic cost. All that money going on imported cars that could otherwise go into the local economy.

It just seems all rather wasteful to me.

If I double the size of my car well then now I'm safer, since odds are the car I run into will be smaller than mine.

You see that danger and so you double the size of your car.

Now I need an even bigger car to keep myself safe from your larger car. Physics.

End result is lots of resources used to protect against the threat caused by using lots of resources. Same as any arms race.

All seems a bit pointless with the downside of economic cost, environmental impact, amenity and the threat to those not in any car.


----------



## over9k (12 October 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not for pedestrians, road workers, anyone on two wheels, people in buildings that are run into and anyone else not in a comparably large vehicle they're not.
> 
> There's also the economic impact. If everyone needs a great big car just for their own safety well that's a huge economic cost. All that money going on imported cars that could otherwise go into the local economy.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how a road worker/pedestrian hit by a subaru forester is going to be in any better shape than someone hit by a ford ranger? 

I understand your point about an arms race when running into other vehicles, but you're forgetting about running into stuff. I'd much rather smash into a telephone pole in a ford F-truck than a suzuki swift for example.


----------



## qldfrog (12 October 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Not for pedestrians, road workers, anyone on two wheels, people in buildings that are run into and anyone else not in a comparably large vehicle they're not.
> 
> There's also the economic impact. If everyone needs a great big car just for their own safety well that's a huge economic cost. All that money going on imported cars that could otherwise go into the local economy.
> 
> ...



Some people have too much money here.my own ute now looks like a midget vs these US trucks but it uses 8l per 100km.
These giants are gas guzzlers,often not on diesel.(Gretas now joyful)
But gasoline as they say in the US cost here per litre what it costs per gallon in the US.. well not really but not far from 50% cheaper there especially if you look at cheapest states ..NOT California or NY
We have some overpaid people here...


----------



## qldfrog (14 October 2021)

Weight and EV
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41...KAptWe895cmN9upqm281LGv9pGjbo5RIZbvBkt251G03A
So EVs are more dangerous then matching ice, with example of F150


----------



## qldfrog (14 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Weight and EV
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41...KAptWe895cmN9upqm281LGv9pGjbo5RIZbvBkt251G03A
> So EVs are more dangerous then matching ice, with example of F150



Makes sense with battery weight..and an ice is on average around 1/2 tank full


----------



## sptrawler (14 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Makes sense with battery weight..and an ice is on average around 1/2 tank full



Mate give it away, it is but a blip on history, a short but financially advantageous blip, stop discouraging the blip, ride the blip. 

The blip will happen despite you. 👍


----------



## qldfrog (15 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Mate give it away, it is but a blip on history, a short but financially advantageous blip, stop discouraging the blip, ride the blip.
> 
> The blip will happen despite you. 👍



I wonder how hard it would be to convert a normal ice vehicle to ammonia.is it possible? Diesel style or spark ignition?
Even mixing gas or diesel?
That would be the ultimate option.
Tech possible forvpower plants i am sure but car and or trucks? Green or not, and no need for rare earth lithium etc


----------



## sptrawler (15 October 2021)

By the way on the EV issue, I have a couple of EV scooters, the Segway ninebot es4 scooter main battery which is in the stem has failed.
That has happened after 3 years, the problem is I can't get a replacement battery, Segway Australia don't want to know and no scooter sellers are interested.
So I thought I'll try on AliExpress, well that was interesting, bought a battery that the seller said would be sent DHL, it wasn't, it didn't arrive.
So open a dispute with Alliexpress and the seller posts up a delivery notice to the Netherlands, as evidence that it was received in Australia, I explained the scam to AliExpress but they just gave the money to the seller anyway.
So lesson learnt, only buy off Alliexpress what you are prepared to lose.lol


----------



## basilio (15 October 2021)

For all the beach bunnies who want to  quietly scoot  along on the beach.

I checked out the prices on current Mokes for sale and these new ones look like a great deal!









						The Moke is going fully electric - and petrol orders will close by the end of this year
					

The Moke is going fully electric, and customers won't be able to order an ICE version by the end of this year.




					thedriven.io


----------



## sptrawler (17 October 2021)

A Toyota Mirai, travels 1360klm on a tank of H2 gas (5.65kg)









						World record: Toyota Mirai travels 1360km on one hydrogen tank
					

The Japanese sedan travelled the equivalent distance of Sydney to Adelaide on just 5.65kg of fuel. The 2021 Toyota Mirai sedan has set a new hydrogen




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (17 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> A Toyota Mirai, travels 1360klm on a tank of H2 gas (5.65kg)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You would need that range because there is no refilling stations for hydrogen between Sydney and Adelaide, hahaha.

Good effort for the driver though, he must have been driving super slow with no aircon or brakes to make that distance, that’s only 240kms short of the record for a battery electric.


----------



## qldfrog (17 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> A Toyota Mirai, travels 1360klm on a tank of H2 gas (5.65kg)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that real?..i had the feeling H2 energy density was pretty low..even compressed..will check
I quote
Hydrogen at 50 atmospheres pressure provides about *0.13 kilowatt-hours* per litre, and liquid hydrogen provides 2.36 kilowatt-hours per litre. (Petrol or oil provide about 10 kilowatt-hours per litre.)


----------



## qldfrog (17 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Is that real?..i had the feeling H2 energy density was pretty low..even compressed..will check
> I quote
> Hydrogen at 50 atmospheres pressure provides about *0.13 kilowatt-hours* per litre, and liquid hydrogen provides 2.36 kilowatt-hours per litre. (Petrol or oil provide about 10 kilowatt-hours per litre.)



So i seriously doubt you get 6kg hydrogen for 1360km which would be equivalent to 1.5kg oil....


----------



## qldfrog (17 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> So i seriously doubt you get 6kg hydrogen for 1360km which would be equivalent to 1.5kg oil....



And then i read
On a mass basis, hydrogen has nearly three times the energy content of gasoline—120 MJ/kg for hydrogen versus 44 MJ/kg for gasoline.
So that would mean 6kg hydrigen comparable to 18l of gasoline?

I assume this is all compared to compression level.
But even the above 18l of petrol for more than a 1000km???


----------



## mullokintyre (18 October 2021)

Electrification of old cars has goner mainstream
from ABC NEWS


> "There's a lot of people out there who love their classic cars, but don't want the issues of internal combustion engines," he says.
> 
> "Old cars look beautiful and new cars all look the same."
> From suburban garages to professional workshops, Australians are popping car bonnets and stripping out petrol and diesel motors, fuel tanks and gear boxes, mufflers and exhausts.
> ...



One of the people quoted is the guy I have ordered my conversion kit from.
I am now concerned that he will be inundated with enquiries, and my order (awaiting the batteries), will be pushed back even further.
There is one quote in the above I would take issue with.
Australians want to buy electric cars, but car makers say government policy blocks supply.
I would not argue with the concept of Australians wanting electric cars, but to try to pretend its governmant inaction is plain crap.
Its the sheer cost of them.
Most of them fall into the luxury car market.
Unless you can  justify them as a salary sacrifice or fully expensed company car, the idea of tying up 60 grans plus in a car is well beyond the means of mr and mrs Average.
My wife's Mazda Cx5 is coming up for replacement early next year.
I tried to steer her towards the idea of replacing it with an EV, but she baulked at the cost of a similar sized vehicle to the CX5.
She got out of a Suburu outback for the mazda, so wants AWD, with a comfy long distance interior (she travels about 30k per year).
The ones she might have considered, the Hyundai Kona or Kia Niro are both too small for what she wants.
The Nissan  leaf and the  Hyundai Ioniq are even smaller.
The others, Teslas,  Jags, Mercs, Audis  Porsche's etc are priced well above what she wants to spend.
Until you can buy a mid sized electric for slightly more thean the ICE version, peoples pockets will rule.
Mick


----------



## basilio (18 October 2021)

That ABC story is very good.  The really interesting ideas were towards the end.

_Some hope this change is just the start: they look forward to a time when conversions can be done cheaply and at mass scale. They believe that at least some of the petrol cars being sold today may see out their time on the road as converted electric ones.        _

As they pointed out with the move to rapid decarbonisation and the inherent cheapness and cleanness  of electric transport many ICE vehicles will lose value rapidly in the next few years.  So, if batteries drop in price as quickly as expected, then relatively cheap  turn key conversions may indeed become quite practical. 

I remember earlier this year there is an engineer who is developing a  business model to electrify  current interstate  truck fleets.  Becasue of the high mileages the economics are very good.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 October 2021)

basilio said:


> That ABC story is very good.  The really interesting ideas were towards the end.
> 
> _Some hope this change is just the start: they look forward to a time when conversions can be done cheaply and at mass scale. They believe that at least some of the petrol cars being sold today may see out their time on the road as converted electric ones.        _
> 
> ...



Sorry to dissappoint you BAS, but that is unrealistic.
As the article pointed out, most of the newer cars are just not capable of conversion.
Older cars that were built as body on chassis before the monocoque bodies came in are far easier to adapt.
Plus all the computers in them controlling everything from  autostart /stop, emission controls, power steering, ABS brakes, adaptive cruise control etc  will need to be updated or taken out.
The interstate truck fleets may be an option because once again they are usually a ladder frame chassis and engine with the cab stuck on as an afterthought. But as with all the other options, the biggest problem  will be quick charging a battery pack that may be fifteen times larger than that of a Tesla.
Mick


----------



## basilio (18 October 2021)

I can understand why an older car is easier to electrify than a more modern one in terms of computers ect.

Having said that  I could also see how some clever mechanics /engineers could devise a way of resolving these issues that could be a turn key solution for many more cars of that type. The "holy grail" solution is a 10-15k changeover.

However I can also see a number of car owners who love the look and feel of their Merc or Lexus or Cressida and would be prepared to pay a decent amount for essentially a new car experience in their comfortable old beast. 









						Swap and go: electric trucks to run between Sydney and Brisbane using exchangeable batteries
					

Batteries can be swapped in three minutes, removing the need for trucks to plug in and charge




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2021)

basilio said:


> I can understand why an older car is easier to electrify than a more modern one in terms of computers ect.
> 
> Having said that  I could also see how some clever mechanics /engineers could devise a way of resolving these issues that could be a turn key solution for many more cars of that type. The "holy grail" solution is a 10-15k changeover.
> 
> ...



As Mick said, the issue is with the way the car is built, the battery packs are heavy and take up a lot of space.
So the best place to put them is low down, in between the chassis rails, modern cars aren't built with chassis rails, except some 4X4's and light commercials.
The normal passenger car floor is a piece of flat tin, with tin strengthening ribs spot welded to it, so their strength is very sensitive to bits being cut and extra weight being added.
$10-15k would cover the cost for a small battery, installing it would cost extra, then there is a motor, speed controller etc. A Telsa power wall is about $10k for 10Kw isn't it?


----------



## basilio (18 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As Mick said, the issue is with the way the car is built, the battery packs are heavy and take up a lot of space.
> So the best place to put them is low down, in between the chassis rails, modern cars aren't built with chassis rails, except some 4X4's and light commercials.
> The normal passenger car floor is a piece of flat tin, with tin strengthening ribs spot welded to it, so their strength is very sensitive to bits being cut and extra weight being added.
> $10-15k would cover the cost for a small battery, installing it would cost extra, then there is a motor, speed controller etc. A Telsa power wall is about $10k for 10Kw isn't it?




Few points.
Yep it would be ideal to put the battery pack at the base of the car. But second best solutions would still work and in the overall  scheme not be the most difficult problem in a retro fit.
Current  battery prices are  pretty  expensive.  But don't take the Tesla power wall as a cost indicator.  In fact if one looked at electric cars the presumed cost of the car at 1K per kw battery shows how distorted this figure is. The really big changes are forecast for 2-4 years time when efficiencies and new processes reduce costs and increase storage capacity.
From what I have seen there are many small car enthusiasts looking at ways to retro fit older cars.









						Why are electric cars so expensive? - EV Central
					

Electric cars are currently quite expensive, but advances in battery technology and increasing demand means they should get more affordable.




					evcentral.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2021)

EXCLUSIVE: China’s BYD electric car plans stall in Australia
					

The Australian distributor for Chinese manufacturer BYD promised it would offer a “sub-$35,000” electric hatchback this year. Now, it appears those plans have fallen through.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (18 October 2021)

In all of this discussion , we are only talking about a fringe group, of which I am one.
A number of my friends have questioned my sanity in converting a1980's sports car to electric, but I can live with that.
But its not for everyone, indeed, the original article i quoted talked about maybe 100 cars in Australia that have been converted.
There are more hot rods in OZ than there are converted electric cars, though I do know of a local guy who is attempting to convert a 34 Ford Hot Rod he built a number of years ago  into an EV. 
 Part of the problem is the weight balance between front and back axles ,plus  the fact that it is already so low to the ground that it can get jammed in his driveway crossing if he is not careful.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (18 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As Mick said, the issue is with the way the car is built, the battery packs are heavy and take up a lot of space.
> So the best place to put them is low down, in between the chassis rails, modern cars aren't built with chassis rails, except some 4X4's and light commercials.
> The normal passenger car floor is a piece of flat tin, with tin strengthening ribs spot welded to it, so their strength is very sensitive to bits being cut and extra weight being added.
> $10-15k would cover the cost for a small battery, installing it would cost extra, then there is a motor, speed controller etc. A Telsa power wall is about $10k for 10Kw isn't it?



I would add that at least for euro cars, crumbling zone design is VERY important and adding not compressible heavy batteries in the floor would kill countless lives..back to the 70s design
I would actually be very interested in crash test data for Tesla, and wonder if they created a special EV category for them..less engine block sure but heavier with more rigid floor..hum...


----------



## sptrawler (18 October 2021)

A lot of battery plants being built in the U.S.




__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				



From the article:
Toyota Motor Corp. plans to invest $3.4 billion in the U.S. through 2030 to establish a new company and build its first U.S. battery plant, becoming the latest global automaker to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles through a battery push. 

Production would start in 2025 and at first focus on batteries for hybrid electric vehicles, creating 1,750 new jobs, the company said in a statement that didn’t disclose the location or production capacity. The investment is specifically for battery work and won’t be used to expand vehicle-assembly capacity, a spokesman said.  

Global automakers are boosting investments in battery production to take on EV market leader Tesla Inc. Stellantis NV and LG Energy announced plans Monday to build a battery-cell factory in North America to supply the carmaker’s growing fleet of electric vehicles. Stellantis, with brands like Jeep and Ram, has a target of raising U.S. sales of electrified vehicles to 40% of deliveries by the end of the decade.

Ford Motor Co. last month unveiled a plan to spend $11.4 billion with South Korea’s SK Innovation Co. to build battery and EV plants in Tennessee and Kentucky. General Motors Co. also stepped up investments in electric and autonomous vehicles in June, with a plan to spend $35 billion by 2025.


----------



## basilio (19 October 2021)

The new world of electric  trees

Solar films used for e-bike charging 'tree' in Germany​
Wednesday, 13 October, 2021






In the community of Löchgau in Germany, ASCA has designed and implemented a ‘solar tree’ for construction company STRENGER Bauen und Wohnen.

The solar tree produces electricity for the e-bike charging stations of three apartment buildings in a senior-friendly living residential complex. The project demonstrates the flexibility of ASCA’s organic solar films.

“With conventional technology, the individual shapes of the solar modules would not have been feasible,” said Hermann Issa, ASCA Senior Vice President of Business Development & Project Management, who also designed the solar tree.









						Solar films used for e-bike charging 'tree' in Germany
					

Using its organic solar films, ASCA has designed a 'solar tree' for an e-bike charging station at a residential complex in Löchgau, Germany.




					www.sustainabilitymatters.net.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 October 2021)

basilio said:


> The new world of electric  trees
> [/URL]



Here's one planted earlier..... 




My photo. Location is Munich in 2017.


----------



## qldfrog (20 October 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Here's one planted earlier.....
> 
> View attachment 131688
> 
> ...



these are mine:


----------



## SirRumpole (20 October 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Here's one planted earlier.....
> 
> View attachment 131688
> 
> ...




Just right for a Nissan Leaf.


----------



## Sean K (20 October 2021)

I'm thinking of buying one of these. How am I going to power it after 2030?


----------



## mullokintyre (20 October 2021)

Is that an AC Cobra??
If it is, the company has announced an all electric version 
Cobra EV.
Maybe you could take one for a test drive and swap the components over.
Mick


----------



## Sean K (20 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Is that an AC Cobra??
> If it is, the company has announced an all electric version
> Cobra EV.
> Maybe you could take one for a test drive and swap the components over.
> Mick




But will it sound the same?  

And, double the price of a replica with a real motor in it. Yikes!!


----------



## mullokintyre (20 October 2021)

kennas said:


> But will it sound the same?



I am going to put a serious boom box with large subwoofers in mine connected to a  small computer that has recordings of a V8 straight through exhaust.
Depending on the level of push on the go button, the computer will select an appropriate level of V8 burble for the occasion.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (20 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I am going to put a serious boom box with large subwoofers in mine connected to a  small computer that has recordings of a V8 straight through exhaust.
> Depending on the level of push on the go button, the computer will select an appropriate level of V8 burble for the occasion.
> Mick



They do actually that: fake v8 noise, and you can even tune the noise to your taste..
I want a kookaburra laugh based one for the states or europe.
Take it up suckers in your CC and covid friendly buses .i belong to the 1pc😊


----------



## SirRumpole (20 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> They do actually that: fake v8 noise, and you can even tune the noise to your taste..
> I want a kookaburra laugh based one for the states or europe.
> Take it up suckers in your CC and covid friendly buses .i belong to the 1pc😊




It's also a safety measure to warn pedestrians to get out of the way.


----------



## mullokintyre (20 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It's also a safety measure to warn pedestrians to get out of the way.



the possibilities are endless.
Instead of a horn, i was going to add a few copied lines from films or songs instead.
Maybe something similar to what Macauley Kulkin did in Home alone.
maybe machine gun fire, or a bazooka.
That should wake em up.
Open to suggestions from forumites.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (20 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> the possibilities are endless.
> Instead of a horn, i was going to add a few copied lines from films or songs instead.
> Maybe something similar to what Macauley Kulkin did in Home alone.
> maybe machine gun fire, or a bazooka.
> ...



"I will be back" and a tar fuelled smoke generator for the tailing fumes....


----------



## mullokintyre (20 October 2021)

Getting back on Topic, was just reading an article about how the EV versions of  marque cars proving to be outperforming supercars.
The car in question wad the Audi  E-Tron sportback which at 1-100kmh in 3.3 seconds is the fastest 4 door Audi ever built.
Noice.
Unfortunately,  at a price tag of $186,000 its a bit out of my price range.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (20 October 2021)

kennas said:


> I'm thinking of buying one of these. How am I going to power it after 2030?
> 
> View attachment 131694



Maybe get a back yard distillery, you should be able to brew enough moonshine for your Sunday drive.

Super cheap auto might even sell 10 litre tins of fuel to keep the collectors going.

(there will still be petrol stations long after 2030, but by 2040 they may be disappearing, just like LPG is disappearing now, after 2040 is when you might have to start buying it by the tin)


----------



## Value Collector (20 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Getting back on Topic, was just reading an article about how the EV versions of  marque cars proving to be outperforming supercars.
> The car in question wad the Audi  E-Tron sportback which at 1-100kmh in 3.3 seconds is the fastest 4 door Audi ever built.
> Noice.
> Unfortunately,  at a price tag of $186,000 its a bit out of my price range.
> Mick



Here is a video of a Tesla beating a V8 super car.

it drags a road legal v8 first, then the Super cheap Auto V8 super car.

This isn’t even the fastest Tesla, the New “Model S Plaid” is even quicker than the one shown here.


----------



## mullokintyre (20 October 2021)

Just been reading about the Rimac Nevera.
This EV from Croatia of all places, boasts a price tag of  2.4 million USD.
But for this princely sum you get a four motor AWD that has 1,914 Hp at its disposal, plus  1731 ft lb of Torque.
Just for comparison, my 67 volkswagen has 34 HP and 75 ftlb of torque and a top speed of 122kmh.
But it did only cost me 1800 bucks.
The Nevera  hits 0-100 mph in 4.3 seconds, 0-186Mph(300KMH) in 9.3 seconds and has a top speed of   258MPH (over 400 KMH).
Goes a bit alright.
Mick


----------



## Sean K (20 October 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe get a back yard distillery, you should be able to brew enough moonshine for your Sunday drive.
> 
> Super cheap auto might even sell 10 litre tins of fuel to keep the collectors going.
> 
> (there will still be petrol stations long after 2030, but by 2040 they may be disappearing, just like LPG is disappearing now, after 2040 is when you might have to start buying it by the tin)




I might plant some corn to make me some ethanol. 

Yes, petrol stations will need to continue for some time until the commercial vehicle fleet transitions, but how much will a litre of fuel cost? Might be an expensive Sunday drive.


----------



## Value Collector (20 October 2021)

kennas said:


> I might plant some corn to make me some ethanol.
> 
> Yes, petrol stations will need to continue for some time until the commercial vehicle fleet transitions, but how much will a litre of fuel cost? Might be an expensive Sunday drive.



It will be interesting, it might become like fire wood is now, eg most petrol stations seem to have a little stack of over priced fire wood for the people that have a fire pit as a weed end novelty.

Maybe in the future the bowsers will be replaced with charging stations, and petrol is in Tins beside the fire wood, next to the ICE freezer and bait fridge.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> It's also a safety measure to warn pedestrians to get out of the way.



Lack of noise and pedestrian safety has been my one real concern about EV’s.

I have no statistics to back it up but it seems a fair assumption that the noise of combustion engines probably has saved the lives of many pedestrians over the years when neither the driver nor the pedestrian had spotted each other.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 October 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Just right for a Nissan Leaf.



With the slight irony that there’s a BMW factory within walking distance of where the photo was taken.....


----------



## mullokintyre (20 October 2021)

Back in the 70's lotsa people went over to the UK and ordered a RHD BMW and kept it for a year in the UK.
They could then ship it back to OZ and not pay import duty and customs.
Made the cost of owning a beemer significantly less than buying one here.
The Beemer service people would not touch them cos they did not have ADR compliance plates, but that did not stop plenty from importing them.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (20 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Back in the 70's lotsa people went over to the UK and ordered a RHD BMW and kept it for a year in the UK.
> They could then ship it back to OZ and not pay import duty and customs.
> Made the cost of owning a beemer significantly less than buying one here.
> The Beemer service people would not touch them cos they did not have ADR compliance plates, but that did not stop plenty from importing them.
> Mick



I used to chat to an old fella who in his younger days imported luxury cars into PNG and then sold them into Australian market, avoiding the taxes through some loop hole.


----------



## qldfrog (20 October 2021)

https://www.energylivenews.com/2021...ero-will-require-massive-expansion-of-mining/
When reality is a bastard and crashes narrative the hardway


----------



## moXJO (20 October 2021)

I want an electric Ute. When is this bloody rivian turning up in Australia?
I swear I was banging on about this 3 years ago.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 October 2021)

moXJO said:


> I want an electric Ute. When is this bloody rivian turning up in Australia?
> I swear I was banging on about this 3 years ago.



I was also keen on Rivian.
Was even prepared to stump up the 1000 pre order slot position.
But Rivian have said they have no plans to make RHD versions, so we are out of luck there.
Thought about buying one in the states, shipping it out here and then converting to RHD.
But would have to be a one off.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (21 October 2021)

An article on the search for EV battery materials.








						Electric vehicle surge hit by nickel shortage
					

A report out of Europe shows rising demand for metals in lithium-ion batteries could push up the prices of electric cars. Global demand for a precious




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (21 October 2021)

The article refers to Nickel as a "precious Metal".
Can't say I have ever heard that one before!
Maybe explains why IGO is having another attempt at breaking through the 10 buck barrier.
Third rime lucky maybe??
mick


----------



## Sean K (21 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The article refers to Nickel as a "precious Metal".
> Can't say I have ever heard that one before!
> Maybe explains why IGO is having another attempt at breaking through the 10 buck barrier.
> Third rime lucky maybe??
> mick




I'm on CTM for a Ni play. 7c to 1.18, attacking ATHs. IGO's more diversified, isn't it?


----------



## mullokintyre (21 October 2021)

Good Work!
CTM  has had a big jump from November last year.
I would have taken my profits by now had I held it.
Probably too late for me now.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (21 October 2021)

For anyone interested, there is a talk on ev conversion of classic cars on the sunny coast early november .pm me and i will forward you details


----------



## Sean K (21 October 2021)

qldfrog said:


> For anyone interested, there is a talk on ev conversion of classic cars on the sunny coast early november .pm me and i will forward you details




I'm a Mexican and not allowed into QLD.


----------



## basilio (21 October 2021)

*The simplicity of electric cars.*

*The Future*​Get ready for car collaborations to go up a couple of gears as the electric revolution takes over. Car companies are already looking at amalgamating their many different models onto as few platforms as possible. Stellantis Group - owner of Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroen, Fiat, Jeep, Peugeot and nine other brands - is developing four basic platforms to provide for its 15 brands’ futures (small, medium, large and body-on-frame). 
Ever ambitious Volkswagen is going even further, developing one single platform for its nine car brands to share across their many models. 




Volkswagen's one size fits all MEB platform
Exactly how successful this is, only time will tell. But when the might of the automotive world is investing thousands of billions of dollars collectively in making it happen, you’d be brave to bet against it. 
The key here is the innate simplicity and flexibility of the electric powertrain, the most revolutionary concept to hit the automotive business since Henry Ford’s production line. Imagine a skateboard where batteries sit on the deck and there are motors at one or both ends. You can make the deck as long and wide or short and narrow as you need, drape whatever body you want over the top and use any kind of suspension to connect the wheels to the frame. 
What this means for consumers is that car bodies and interiors are the future’s battleground. The majority of car buyers don’t care what engine their car has as long as it works. For them, it’s all about the interior. How spacious is it? How flexible? How luxurious? How well is it digitally integrated with the rest of my life?









						Twins under the skin
					

Did you know you can get a brand new Mercedes-Benz for Nissan money? Or a Porsche electric car for the price of an Audi. Glenn Butler explains. How would




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Sean K (21 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Good Work!
> CTM  has had a big jump from November last year.
> I would have taken my profits by now had I held it.
> Probably too late for me now.
> Mick




I came in late. Recent analysts targets between 1.40 and 1.50 - in the CTM thread. So, there's potentially still some coin to be made at current levels of Ni price. If it keeps going, so will CTM, imo. I'm buying dips.


----------



## mullokintyre (23 October 2021)

Article in the Weekend OZ about the Hyundai Kona EV.


> Recently, however, I decided to shun excitement, variety and vivacity in my life and moved to the suburbs, where those absurd figures make sense. Counting the cars parked not only in the treble garages and generous driveways but along the street outside my neighbours’ houses provides a good insight into how many people live inside, because it’s usually slightly fewer than the number of vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sounds very happy with the vehicle, and is hoping his wife who wants a new car, will agree to something like the new Kona EV
The write says he has a six months loan of one of these, but it is mainly as a second car.
he says that its great for families doing short trips .
He obviously has no young kids,  or has not discussed it with his wife, because with the requirement that kids up to the age of seven must be in  approved child restraint seats. 
Any mother will soon tell him that trying to fit two car seats in the back of a Kona as well as the pram and all the other 8 billion things that go with young kids these days, then fit the shopping in is going to be a tad more difficult than the male thinks.
And don't even contemplate if you have more than two children.
My eldest jumped out of a three year old Volkswagen Tiguan into a 15 year old range rover purely because of the space requirements for his young family.
I thought he was nuts, but his wife assures me that it is just as easy to drive and she has no trouble with the car seats and pram , toys, the dog, etc.
They are thinking about fronting up for a third child, so will probably have to look at a double decker bus  then.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (25 October 2021)

Interesting article on EV's and their batteries.








						Thousands of electric cars and home batteries are being recalled in Australia. This is what's happening to the waste
					

Australians may have only just started buying electric cars and household batteries – but several product recalls are showing that a national plan for dealing with renewable energy waste may already be needed.




					www.abc.net.au
				



An interesting comment in the article, well worth highlighting, as hydrofluoric acid is extremely dangerous, so be careful when playing with lithium ion batteries:


"What sets lithium-ion batteries apart from the majority all other battery types is the electrolyte system used," he says.

"The electrolyte system consists of flammable and combustible organic solvents in which a lithium salt is dissolved, which is not only corrosive and toxic but releases hydrofluoric acid when in contact with water.










						Chemical Safety - Environment, Health and Safety
					

The main function of the Chemical Safety section is to manage the process of improving safety through education, compliance and the constant task of identifying and evaluating potential safety hazards in order to reach the destination of a safe research … Continued




					ehs.unc.edu


----------



## mullokintyre (25 October 2021)

Where one of my sons live in the dark recesses of locked down Melbourne, the majority of the old single fronted narrow houses in the area have no driveway access, so many of the locals need to park on the street. (and have a permit to dod so).
For those people, charging an EV is going to be  a tad difficult, unless they can somehow run a power lead from the house across the footpath and the sometimes the road if they have to park on the opposite side of the street to their house..
Over time, these old houses are torn down and replaced with multistory units, which should give owners of EV's access to a charging point. 
However, in the meantime, a chunk of potential EV users are just out of luck.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (25 October 2021)

From Todays OZ


> All new cars sold would be electric by 2035, under an ambitious new proposal from the Grattan Institute to slash carbon emissions.
> Grattan’s car plan would see the average annual emissions for new passenger vehicle sales capped at 143 grams of carbon per kilometre (g/km), starting from 2024.
> Under the proposal, this average annual emissions “ceiling” on new car sales would be lowered to 100g/km by 2027, and then to 25g/km by 2030. Carbon emissions from new vehicles under the ceiling should fall to zero by 2035, the report said.
> e responsible for 11 per cent of Australia’s carbon emissions, and Marion Terrill, the director of Grattan’s transport and cities program and author of the report, said the plan would achieve 40 per cent of the nation’s emissions reduction task between now and 2030.



Seeing as we do not make any cars ourselves, and with most of the countries that control the making of vehicles for the OZ market already saying they will stop making ICE powered vehicles ,  the institute  will get their wish whether the Australian government likes it or not. Like so many things, the market will take it out of the hands of the fools who think they run they run the country.

Mick


----------



## basilio (25 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Where one of my sons live in the dark recesses of locked down Melbourne, the majority of the old single fronted narrow houses in the area have no driveway access, so many of the locals need to park on the street. (and have a permit to dod so).
> For those people, charging an EV is going to be  a tad difficult, unless they can somehow run a power lead from the house across the footpath and the sometimes the road if they have to park on the opposite side of the street to their house..
> Over time, these old houses are torn down and replaced with multistory units, which should give owners of EV's access to a charging point.
> However, in the meantime, a chunk of potential EV users are just out of luck.
> Mick




There are some simple solutions for this problem









						1,300 street lights converted to EV chargers in London
					

Lamp post chargers provide quick, easy solution to increase public EV recharging networks.




					www.fleeteurope.com


----------



## mullokintyre (25 October 2021)

basilio said:


> There are some simple solutions for this problem
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, its a solution, but as I have remarked earlier, there are unseen problems when one tries to scale up.
Bit of a problem if the street lighting is spaced a long way apart.
There would be at least 80 to 100 metres between street lights , and sometimes they are only on one side of the road.
Second, who pays to (a) put the chargers in,
(b) pays for the electricity supply, and how do you bill them.
Mick


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> the institute will get their wish whether the Australian government likes it or not



This is the art of politics.

Propose or promise doing what's going to happen anyway then claim credit for it.

It works so long as the masses don't realise it's going to happen regardless.

EV's or other non-petrol/diesel cars are coming no matter what, international forces are determining that, so there's no point arguing the merits in Australia just as there's no point arguing whether we ought to have anything else that's been invented and seen mass adoption. 

Where any issue at that level does exist is with filling in infrastructure blackspots. That is, getting public chargers into towns where market forces alone would struggle to deliver it in a timely manner (the chicken and egg problem).


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 October 2021)

basilio said:


> There are some simple solutions for this problem



Like the concept but I'll caution that the capacity of existing infrastructure varies massively from one location to another.

In some sure, EV chargers could be installed quite easily.

In others there's literally nothing to spare and I mean that literally, there's nothing to spare in terms of capacity it was built to the absolute minimum required at the time with no thought that anything would ever be added.

So it varies hugely between locations.


----------



## basilio (25 October 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Yes, its a solution, but as I have remarked earlier, there are unseen problems when one tries to scale up.
> Bit of a problem if the street lighting is spaced a long way apart.
> There would be at least 80 to 100 metres between street lights , and sometimes they are only on one side of the road.
> Second, who pays to (a) put the chargers in,
> ...



It's in the article  Mull. Nothing is perfect.  Some solutions work better than others. But this is an elegant way of using current power and lighting  infrastructure in inner city areas  to also power electric cars.
Naturally that would be subject to availability of power but that can be upgraded


----------



## qldfrog (27 October 2021)

Can you imagine the amounts of money made and lost, not even thinking about the ecological cost of this crazy narrative.what a waste
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-87-billion-electric-car-210000336.html
Just say EV and money falls from the sky and factories building zip start popping up etc.
EVs have a place in society but not as a meme... maybe these EV Non producers are just targetting the virtual world of digital twins.
You will only drive the Evergrande EV in your VR helmet....


----------



## sptrawler (28 October 2021)

South Australia joining Victoria and NSW, with an E.V distance tax.








						Electric car taxes 'inevitable' in Australia as SA joins the charge
					

Buyers of electric cars in South Australia will soon be charged for every kilometre they drive, after an electric vehicle tax was passed.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Key points:​
Plug-in hybrid vehicle owners will be charged an indexed fee of 2 cents per kilometre
Owners of any other electric vehicles will be charged an indexed fee of 2.5 cents per kilometre
The new tax will come into effect in July 2027, or when electric vehicles make up 30 per cent of the market, whichever is earliest


----------



## qldfrog (28 October 2021)

sptrawler said:


> South Australia joining Victoria and NSW, with an E.V distance tax.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So obviously mandatory tracking, and illegal to hide any mvt.
Ahh the Reset..and thanks to covid scam , no one cares about privacy , freedom anymore, herds of cattles led to the slaughter house


----------



## sptrawler (29 October 2021)

Not exactly an electric car, but I have just picked up my latest electric scooter, an EMove cruiser.


----------



## sptrawler (31 October 2021)

Well the party on cheaper E.V's may well over, apparently the cost of raw materials is starting to bite.








						Inexorable decline of EV battery prices coming to an end – report
					

EV battery costs were approaching parity with gas-powered cars, but  Benchmark believes decline may be at an end as lithium prices surge 313% in a year and cobalt, nickel prices jump.




					www.mining.com
				



From the article:
In a new note, Benchmark Mineral Intelligence, a price reporting agency and battery supply chain researcher based in London, says battery producers have begun to increase lithium ion cell prices as anode, cathode and other raw material input prices continue to rise.






Nickel sulphate prices are up 34% and cobalt hydroxide nearly 82% over the past year but the biggest culprit is lithium with the price of Benchmark’s lithium carbonate for use in batteries (ex-works China) surging by 313% since this time last year, reaching RMB185,000 per tonne ($28,675 a tonne) in mid-October. 

From nearly $300 per kWh in 2014, prices for lithium ion batteries with nickel-cobalt-manganese (NCM) chemistries, have declined to close to $100 per kWH this year. $100/kWh is considered a pivotal figure as battery-powered vehicles reach parity with gasoline-powered cars, but Benchmark expects this trend to reverse:  



> “Battery makers appear set to pass on lithium price increases to the automotive OEMs and other downstream customers which could have a major impact on electric vehicles coming to market between 2022 and 2024.”


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

The Rivian electric ute, takes on "Hells Gate" in the moab desert, shows what electric motor torque and control can do.
The Moab desert is a big off road destination for the 4X4 fraternity



A Kia Sorrento going up the same track, a lot more speed required and off road tyres.



And this shows, it doesn't matter how good the equipment is, if the driver is hopeless.


----------



## qldfrog (1 November 2021)

hum comparing to a KIA sorento?? why not an Austin mini 
but no doubt there is torque


----------



## sptrawler (1 November 2021)

qldfrog said:


> hum comparing to a KIA sorento?? why not an Austin mini
> but no doubt there is torque



You can only post the choices available.  

I've done a lot of 4X4 driving, but I have never gone somewhere just to see if I can damage my car, if an obstacle presented itself while on the trip I tackled it. 
But to go out to find a difficult obstacle, just to see if you can do it with damaging the vehicle, isn't my bag.
It is a bit like going up in a perfectly good aeroplane, then jumping out with a parachute, just to see if it will open, again not my bag.
Or free climbing up a sheer rock face 1,000 feet high, just to get there and get in the car you left in the carpark, I mean what is the best and worst outcome?


----------



## Value Collector (2 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Where one of my sons live in the dark recesses of locked down Melbourne, the majority of the old single fronted narrow houses in the area have no driveway access, so many of the locals need to park on the street. (and have a permit to dod so).
> For those people, charging an EV is going to be  a tad difficult, unless they can somehow run a power lead from the house across the footpath and the sometimes the road if they have to park on the opposite side of the street to their house..
> Over time, these old houses are torn down and replaced with multistory units, which should give owners of EV's access to a charging point.
> However, in the meantime, a chunk of potential EV users are just out of luck.
> Mick



This company can install chargers on pre existing street lights, but your son can just charge once a week outside his home at a charging station like he would have to do with  petrol cars.

But there is electricity every where in our modern world, this company in the UK is installing chargers on pre exisiting street lights.


----------



## qldfrog (2 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> You can only post the choices available.
> 
> I've done a lot of 4X4 driving, but I have never gone somewhere just to see if I can damage my car, if an obstacle presented itself while on the trip I tackled it.
> But to go out to find a difficult obstacle, just to see if you can do it with damaging the vehicle, isn't my bag.
> ...



Yes i do a lot of 4wd, but for safety on unsealed roads or on the farm tracks,to cross the creeks or climb the hills in paddocks ,never as a challenge.
I would NOT bring a kia sorrento to drive thru my farm ..nor an austin😁


----------



## sptrawler (2 November 2021)

Looks like some Australian companies are trying to get in front of the curve, good on them a great example of how it can be done.








						How rainwater is fuelling this fleet of green hydrogen coaches
					

A regional transport service in central Queensland has opted to switch its fleet of diesel-powered buses to hydrogen fuel cell electric ones in a move it says is an Australian-first for a private company.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## basilio (2 November 2021)

Lucid Air has delivered its first electric cars.

The reviews say it is a stunning performance in terms of design and power. Shares have jumped 60% in the past week.
Impressive.









						2022 Lucid Air Dream Edition: Brilliance Out of Nowhere
					

A clean-sheet design with critical components built in-house results in an impressive debut effort.




					www.caranddriver.com


----------



## sptrawler (4 November 2021)

As I've being saying, as demand picks up so does supply.








						Electric car fast charging network headed for Australian shopping centres
					

Some of Australia's most well-known shopping centres are set to adopt more electric vehicle fast chargers during the next two years ... but they'll come at a cost.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Vicinity – which owns the Queen Victoria Building, the Strand and Chatswood Chase in Sydney, Chadstone, Emporium, and Queens Plaza in Melbourne, and the DFO network, among others notable local retail centres – will install the charging infrastructure at “up to” 30 locations within the “next two years.”

Specifications for the chargers have not yet been announced, however _Drive_ understands dual-lead 120kW DC outlets are likely.

If accurate, this will allow a Tesla Model 3 sedan – Australia’s most popular electric car – to top up from 10 per cent to 80 per cent charge in approximately 30 minutes, or slightly less time than the average shopping trip (which takes 41 minutes, according to _CreditDonkey_).

French start-up Engie will install the chargers, via a $AU25 million grant provided earlier this year through the Federal Government’s Future Fuels Fund.

“With 66% of the Australian population living within a 30-minute drive of our centres, the rollout of electric vehicle charging in our car parks will greatly expand the charging infrastructure, paving the way for greater electric vehicle ownership in Australia.”

The first Vicinity electric vehicle chargers will be installed in late 2021 or early 2022, with the remainder promised within the next two years.


----------



## sptrawler (5 November 2021)

Get the old F100 out of the barn and give it a new lease of life.








						Classic Ford F-Series gets electric power
					

The electric 'crate motor' develops a V8-like 210kW/430Nm, and is cheaper than you might think.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## moXJO (6 November 2021)

All the New Electric Vehicles in Australia, Ranked by Price
					

Interested in going electric but don't know where to start? Well, here's every new electric vehicle in Australia ranked by price.




					www.gizmodo.com.au
				




Every ev currently available in Australia (with prices).


----------



## moXJO (6 November 2021)

Ok here's a story from a while back:
https://autoexpert.com.au/videoblog/astonishing-30k-nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-bill

Phillip Carlson bought a Nissan Leaf in August 2012, which cost about $53,500. It’s seven years old today, and it’s worth maybe $12,000 - if you can find someone dumb enough to buy it. Let’s let him tell the story.

_“I bought an electric car from Nissan with 5 years warranty on the battery. They claimed 175km range. From new I only ever got 120km. Now I can BARELY get 35-40km during winter or even 25km if I use the heater. The warranty says the battery is bad if it drops to 8 out of 12 bars, which mine has. 
“I took it in and they claim the battery is totally fine and there’s nothing wrong with it and gave me a $33,000 invoice for a new one!!!!! Nissan just won’t listen and I’ve run out of all hope. I paid $53,500 for this car and it’s pretty useless now.” _

I wonder if you could buy these cars for cheap and wait for battery tech to catch up for cheap installs. Probably not worth it on these cheaper models


----------



## sptrawler (6 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Ok here's a story from a while back:
> https://autoexpert.com.au/videoblog/astonishing-30k-nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-bill
> 
> Phillip Carlson bought a Nissan Leaf in August 2012, which cost about $53,500. It’s seven years old today, and it’s worth maybe $12,000 - if you can find someone dumb enough to buy it. Let’s let him tell the story.
> ...



That is the reason I think people who want to buy an E.V in Australia, should research the issue carefully, the sales people and some others will tell you anything to either sell the car or push the issue of CC.
I personally am of the opinion, if I buy an E.V in the near future, it will be a plug in hybrid, with a battery of about 20Kw/hr and be V2G compliant.
The reason being I get the flexibility of range, I can use it as a pure E.V around the city and if I wish in the near future I can use it as a house battery. The other consideration IMO, is a 20Kw battery pack should be compact enough to be readily replaced at a reasonable price at a future date.
The 2012 Nissan Leaf would have probably have had a Ni/Mh battery, which IMO are not up to Li/ion battery standard, in most aspects. 
But as with everything it is all down to personal choice.


----------



## qldfrog (6 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> All the New Electric Vehicles in Australia, Ranked by Price
> 
> 
> Interested in going electric but don't know where to start? Well, here's every new electric vehicle in Australia ranked by price.
> ...



Great, and i assume it will be a bit more on the road with rego, delivery fees etc etc.
I know EV were expensive here but gosh, definitively just a luxury toy or taxpayer funded market


----------



## mullokintyre (6 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Ok here's a story from a while back:
> https://autoexpert.com.au/videoblog/astonishing-30k-nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-bill
> 
> Phillip Carlson bought a Nissan Leaf in August 2012, which cost about $53,500. It’s seven years old today, and it’s worth maybe $12,000 - if you can find someone dumb enough to buy it. Let’s let him tell the story.
> ...



Grandiose marketing claims probably not confined to EV's.
The claimed economy/range  of most vehicles is rarely achieved in real life.
My ford ranger at stock standard  but never got close to the claimed economy figures from Ford, and most of my driving is on country roads, with very little stop starting.And unlike my wife, I am not a leadfoot.
I bet if the Leaf driver had driven really conservatively,s ay never above 75 kmhr, and just tiptoed around, never used heater, the lights or the aircon system, the driver may have approached the claimed range.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (6 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Grandiose marketing claims probably not confined to EV's.
> The claimed economy/range  of most vehicles is rarely achieved in real life.
> My ford ranger at stock standard  but never got close to the claimed economy figures from Ford, and most of my driving is on country roads, with very little stop starting.And unlike my wife, I am not a leadfoot.
> I bet if the Leaf driver had driven really conservatively,s ay never above 75 kmhr, and just tiptoed around, never used heater, the lights or the aircon system, the driver may have approached the claimed range.
> Mick



actually my holden colorado diesel at always matched the claimed  8l/100 even after more than 10y ..I am driving smoothly, could get a bit higher now that i live and drive in VERY hilly country, from my carport onward


----------



## basilio (7 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Grandiose marketing claims probably not confined to EV's.
> The claimed economy/range  of most vehicles is rarely achieved in real life.
> My ford ranger at stock standard  but never got close to the claimed economy figures from Ford, and most of my driving is on country roads, with very little stop starting.And unlike my wife, I am not a leadfoot.
> I bet if the Leaf driver had driven really conservatively,s ay never above 75 kmhr, and just tiptoed around, never used heater, the lights or the aircon system, the driver may have approached the claimed range.
> Mick




Not a great look was it ? Nissan took a lot of heat over that story. In fact there are other options to replace and upgrade the Nisan Leaf battery pack.  

In any case at the time the story came out Nissan had a battery replacement deal for that model Leaf.  It was around $10.5 K.

There were design flaws in the initial unit.  It ran too hot.









						Nissan Leaf Battery Cost – The Truth, Not Fiction
					

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Here's an interesting one on the changover of a Nissan Leaf Battery. $33,000? No! Try $9990




					thecarguy.com.au


----------



## basilio (7 November 2021)

How to turn trucks into electric trains.

In Lübeck, Germany, there's one of several eHighway test projects: overhead catenary wires, where electric trucks with pantographs can pull power directly from the grid. Thanks to everyone who gave so much time to make this video possible!


----------



## mullokintyre (7 November 2021)

Neat trick, don't know why  it wasn't thought of before.
The only problem I could see was with the professor saying that with the right electricity price it becomes viable for private industry to invest in the infrastructure and  the extra cost of the trucks.
Once again it comes down to the subsidy requirements.
if its not economically viable you have to question it.
It's the old problem pf privatising the profits, but socialisng the costs.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Neat trick, don't know why  it wasn't thought of before.
> The only problem I could see was with the professor saying that with the right electricity price it becomes viable for private industry to invest in the infrastructure and  the extra cost of the trucks.
> Once again it comes down to the subsidy requirements.
> if its not economically viable you have to question it.
> ...



The video said that the savings would pay for the additional cost of the trucks within 18 months, so it’s definitely economically viable.

The statement he made about electricity being at the right price, was just saying that if they charged the right price to the consumers, they could use the income generated to fund the cost of the infrastructure, so they are saving it wouldn’t require subsidies with the right sale price, they aren’t suggesting a subsidy would be required.


----------



## Value Collector (7 November 2021)

Tesla’s charging network has been self funded in a similar way,

e.g they set a price of 44 cents per Kilowatt of electricity, which is almost double the price of home charging, but about half the price of using petrol.

The extra revenue generated has allowed Tesla to built the largest charging network in the world, without any government subsidies.

there are smaller charging networks in Australia that sell electricity for as low as 20 cents, but these networks are slower, have less stalls, and in a lot of cases have received incentives to set up.


----------



## basilio (7 November 2021)

Tesla is implementing the upgrades and new battery technology they highlighted at battery day in Sept 2020.
Essentially they are introducing  much cheaper, more stable and longer life Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for the  current Model 3 and Model Y cars. These batteries have no nickel or cobalt and  far less likely to have runaway thermal reactions

They are also bringing to commercialisation a much improved larger Lithium Ion 4680 battery which will initially power the top range vehicles and heavy trucks. These  are the new tabless batteries with zero cobalt which is a big deal.
While this video focuses on their use in cars they will also be critical in the mass battery packs Tesla will use for energy storage.











						Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## mullokintyre (8 November 2021)

The supply problems don't seem to be abating much.
The tesla batteries for my Volkswagon EV conversion have now been put back another month, the second delay since I ordered.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (8 November 2021)

The U.S and E.U not signing up to the U.K's push for the stopping the production of ICE cars by 2035.








						US won’t sign up to British push to ban new petrol cars by 2035
					

The Biden administration fears backlash over any pledge to phase out fuel-guzzlers as the President struggles to get his climate bill through Congress.




					www.smh.com.au
				




From the article:
The United States is refusing to sign up to plans led by the UK for a global deal to end the sale of new petrol and diesel cars during talks at the Cop26 climate summit.

Germany, Europe’s largest car manufacturer, cannot sign up to the agreement while it is still stuck in coalition talks, which could take weeks.

The UK wants all countries to commit to ending the sale of new polluting cars by 2035 for richer countries and 2040 for developing countries, in a major announcement expected in Glasgow on Wednesday. But it has been in last-minute talks with the Biden administration team which is resisting the commitment because of concerns of domestic political backlash as President Joe Biden struggles to get his climate agenda through Congress.

China is also expected to reject the agreement, partly because Beijing is reluctant to sign a UK-led agreement while relations between the two countries remain at a low point.

The EU’s own deadlines on phasing out petrol and diesel cars are locked in negotiations among member states over its decarbonisation package, although individual states can join.

In the US, Biden has only this year set a deadline for half of all car sales to be electric by 2030 and reversed moves by Donald Trump to loosen pollution standards.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The U.S and E.U not signing up to the U.K's push for the stopping the production of ICE cars by 2035.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its not about the climate, its about the politics.
mick


----------



## sptrawler (9 November 2021)

The Government sounds like it is going to subsidies V2G home chargers.








						PM says he won't force Australians out of their cars, as government launches its electric vehicle strategy
					

The federal government has announced its long-awaited strategy on electric cars — but it won't be setting a date for the country to go all-electric.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
The federal government will partner with the private sector to fund 50,000 charging stations in Australian homes, in a bid to encourage more people to buy electric vehicles.


----------



## sptrawler (9 November 2021)

Another article on the current proposals.








						Grid upgrades, infrastructure rollout planned to handle electric car surge
					

The Prime Minister will on Tuesday reveal his government’s main priority will be ensuring the nation’s electricity system can handle the large-scale take-up of battery-electric vehicles over the coming decade while remaining reliable and affordable for all Australians.




					www.smh.com.au
				



From the article:
 The main priority will be ensuring the nation’s electricity system can handle the large-scale take-up of battery-electric vehicles over the coming decade while remaining reliable and affordable for all Australians.
The policy will include further taxpayer investment in emerging charging technologies that promote grid security and unlock additional value for consumers and electricity market participants.

Experts have warned Australia’s ageing energy grid could struggle if future EV charging is unco-ordinated, with additional generation and network investment likely to be required, increasing total electricity system costs.

Domestic sales of electric cars have risen at record levels in the past six months amid state government incentives as the industry forecasts greater price parity and consumer choice over the next two years.
While Australia’s take-up of battery-electric and plug-in hybrid cars has laggedmany European and Asian nations, new car sales data released in August showed 8688 battery and plug-in EVs were sold in the first half of 2021, which is more than in any calendar year.
Since last year, six more models under $65,000 have been launched in the Australian market, bringing the total available under that price to 14.
The federal government has been heavily criticised by carmakers and advocacy groups for its refusal to set targets in the sector and previous public ridicule of the technology. It earlier this year ruled out subsidising new cars to encourage their widespread take-up.
Federal Labor in March promised it would remove government charges on non-luxury EVs, including import taxes and fringe benefits tax, to drive down the sticker price for Australians who want to drive electric cars.

But instead, the federal government has let the states do the heavy lifting, with Victoria setting a sales target of 50 per cent of new vehicles to be zero emissions by 2030 while NSW announced an EV strategy to increase sales to 53 per cent by 2030-31. Both states and several others have also introduced financial rebates of up to $3000 for new EV purchases while some jurisdictions will waive stamp duty and registration fees.
Mr Morrison said the federal government would bring forward a package of priority market reforms to state and territory energy ministers to ensure the electricity grid was EV-ready. While the list of reforms is likely to grow as new issues emerge, it will start with exploring network tariff reform to encourage charging behaviour and infrastructure rollout that will support optimal grid operation, promoting smart chargers in households and tasking energy market bodies with partnering with governments on grid integration.

As part of a “fleet-first” strategy, which will encourage companies to invest in low-emissions cars and in turn flood the second-hand market with EVs, the Australian Taxation Office will investigate issuing updated guidance for business on the tax treatment of low-emissions vehicles to provide clarity for fleet purchasing.


----------



## moXJO (9 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The supply problems don't seem to be abating much.
> The tesla batteries for my Volkswagon EV conversion have now been put back another month, the second delay since I ordered.
> Mick



Supply issue will hamstring the majority of industries for a while yet. Flow on effects are starting to bite.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> it will start with exploring network tariff reform



My thought is "get on with it".

There's no mysteries about what needs to happen in terms of the end result and nothing needs to be invented. It's not the sort of thing that needs a bureaucracy and 5 years of report writing and so on. 

It just needs actually doing.


----------



## sptrawler (10 November 2021)

It looks as though the proposed Latrobe Valley electric car industry, has been a still birth. I guess the initial announcement served its purpose.









						Electric vehicle factory plan collapses and with it the promise of 500 Victorian jobs
					

SEA Electric tells the Victorian government it won't be building an EV factory, which was announced with great fanfare by Premier Daniel Andrews in 2018.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews announced the deal with SEA Electric ahead of the 2018 election.

The deal was meant to create jobs in the region, which is home to Victoria's coal-fired power stations, after the Hazelwood plant closed in 2017.
News of the project's demise comes amid a renewed focus on electric vehicles after the COP26 climate summit in Glasgow

Documents released to the ABC under Freedom of Information show the factory was meant to be built by December 2019.

But amid questioning before Parliament's Public Accounts and Estimates Committee (PAEC) yesterday, the government revealed SEA Electric had advised it last month of its desire to end the agreement.

The government has refused to say how much money had been paid to the company or whether any had been repaid, saying the matter was commercial in confidence.
A briefing paper prepared for then Industry and Employment Minister Ben Carroll, released under FOI, shows the Department of Jobs, Precincts and Region's Investment Committee classified the project as "high risk" before the grant was approved.

The papers also show there was no guarantee the project would have created 500 jobs. 

Community groups and the opposition began questioning whether the project would eventuate when no site was secured.


----------



## mullokintyre (10 November 2021)

From  ABC News


> Car manufacturers have found themselves in the unusual position of asking for the government to impose limits on how much their cars can pollute.
> 
> Australia is one of the only developed nations without an emissions standard for car makers
> Overseas, car brands are punished for high emissions and rewarded for low emissions
> ...




I would take issue with some of that
Firstly, australia is one of the only developed nations that does not have en emission standards for car makers
Here is a link from  Emisson Standards 


> Australian emission standards are based on European regulations for light-duty and heavy-duty (heavy goods) vehicles, with acceptance of selected US and Japanese standards. The long term policy is to fully harmonize Australian regulations with UN ECE standards. The development of emission standards for highway vehicles and engines is coordinated by the National Transport Commission (NTC) and the regulations—Australian Design Rules (ADR)—are administered by the Department of Infrastructure and Transport.
> 
> The emission standards apply to new vehicles including petrol (gasoline) and diesel cars, light omnibuses, heavy omnibuses, light goods vehicles, medium goods vehicles and heavy goods vehicles, as well as to forward control passenger vehicles and larger motor tricycles. They also cover off-road passenger vehicles (but not off-road engines, such as those used in construction or agricultural machinery).



Looks remarkably a set of emission standards to me. 
I find it a bit rich for somebody from Volkswagen complaining a lack of emission standards when  Volkswagen spent years cheating on the vehicle emissions anyway.
What they are really saying is that they want subsides for the  EV vehicles.
They are happy to wait until either the Fed government subsidises their margins, or they wait until the manufacturers stop making ICE powered vehicles, then they can charge what they like.
The Chinese will beat them to it with much cheaper EV vehicles anyway.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> From  ABC News
> 
> 
> I would take issue with some of that
> ...



That is so true Mick, they say that Australia will get dirty engines, no it won't, the major car manufacturing companies don't have assembly lines dedicated to dirty engines, they make an engine for a series of cars.
If they don't want to sell dirty engines here, fine don't, what they are really trying to do IMO is take the lower priced cars out of the market.
The major manufacturers want subsidies for E.V's so the cost to transition from ICE engines, doesn't hit their bottom line.

As you say, the Chinese will beat them from all angles, the new Haval series of ICE cars are already starting to eat into mainstream car sales, the BEV's wont be far behind.
The EU had better get its skates on, if they want to keep a car industry viable, as for Australia we will stop selling ICE cars when the EU stops selling them.
We don't have a car industry, so saying we are going to stop selling ICE cars is a mute point, if the major car manufacturers stop making them, we obviously will stop selling them.
It is all a bit of media ramping IMO.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I would take issue with some of that
> Firstly, australia is one of the only developed nations that does not have en emission standards for car makers



One thing about emission standards is they're a trade-off. In short lower NOx and particulates comes at a price, that price being higher fuel consumption and CO2 emissions than could otherwise be achieved with the same engine in the same car.

Cutting CO2 emissions from internal combustion likewise comes at a price - more smog.

Electric fixes those issues _but_ an emissions standard is going to help only if it's tight to the point that petrol and diesel can't reasonably meet it. Simply using the latest Euro standard does not of itself achieve that.


----------



## over9k (11 November 2021)

It's called homologation guys, it's not a new concept. 

Most countries pushing this stuff don't even care about the global warming/climate change angle, it's just the horrific smog in the cities they're trying to get rid of. 

Even if the same amount of pollution occurred but was dissipated far more evenly across the planet then that alone would be a massive benefit and solve untold numbers of health/respiratory problems.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 November 2021)

Rivian has listed on a rather large IPO .
From Zero Hedge 


> Tesla-rival Rivian has opened for trading at $106.75 (a 36% premium to its $78 IPO price).
> That opening price *values the company at over $90 billion, that is bigger than GM and Ford. *On a fully diluted basis, including options and restricted stock units, Rivian is valued at more than $112 billion.
> This is the largest IPO on U.S. exchanges since Alibaba in 2014 and the largest by a company based in the U.S. since Facebook in 2012.
> *The listing is the biggest globally this year,* and the sixth-largest ever on a U.S. exchange, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.



Not bad for starters.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2021)

Not E.V specific, but we have talked a lot about the advent of autonomous driving vehicles in the thread, recently we mentioned about active speed monitoring and data logging becoming mandatory, well another one that is becoming mandatory is autonomous emergency braking.
Where the car brakes, if you don't.
This IMO, will be another nail in older ICE vehicles coffins, because older cars will start to have much higher statistics in rear end accidents, furthering the call to have them taken off the road.
What is the old saying "slowly, slowly, catch the monkey?









						Autonomous emergency braking will be compulsory in Australia from 2023
					

The move will save approximately 20 lives every year, according to the Federal Government.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Autonomous emergency braking (AEB) – a technology that uses radar to automatically apply the brakes when a driver gets too close to the car in front – will be mandated Australia-wide in all newly-introduced models from March 2023 onwards.
From March 2025, the safety feature will be required in all new vehicles outright (including existing models). It will apply to all passenger cars, SUVs and light commercial vehicles with gross vehicle mass ratings below 3.5 tonnes, and must also include pedestrian detection.
According to the Federal Government, the move will save approximately 20 lives – and prevent 600 serious injuries – every year.


----------



## moXJO (12 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Rivian has listed on a rather large IPO .
> From Zero Hedge
> 
> Not bad for starters.
> Mick



The Ute they released has got a lot of features. Some are quirky but useful. I'd actually buy stock in this company.


----------



## mullokintyre (12 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> The Ute they released has got a lot of features. Some are quirky but useful. I'd actually buy stock in this company.



I just want the Ute.


----------



## mullokintyre (12 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It looks as though the proposed Latrobe Valley electric car industry, has been a still birth. I guess the initial announcement served its purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A little more on this issue.
From Todays OZ


> President and founder* Tony Fairweather* has long expressed his frustration towards the government relating to the deal, writing urgent correspondence as early as the start of last year.
> 
> In a letter to secretary of the department of jobs, precincts and regions *Simon Phemister *in March 2020, seen by Margin Call, Fairweather escalates a number of issues, requesting an urgent meeting with Andrews and his then-regional development minister *Jaclyn Symes *to address the urgent need for working capital via the government’s prior commitment.
> 
> ...



SEA Electric is now well established overseas with its headquarters in LA.
When you look at the website,  all the glossy pictures are for trucks with Left Hand Drive.
Not sure if  the RHD ones will get a look in.
It is highly likely it will end up as a foreign owned and domiciled co.
We specialise in  sending our good tech  stuff to other countries.
mick


----------



## qldfrog (12 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Not E.V specific, but we have talked a lot about the advent of autonomous driving vehicles in the thread, recently we mentioned about active speed monitoring and data logging becoming mandatory, well another one that is becoming mandatory is autonomous emergency braking.
> Where the car brakes, if you don't.
> This IMO, will be another nail in older ICE vehicles coffins, because older cars will start to have much higher statistics in rear end accidents, furthering the call to have them taken off the road.
> What is the old saying "slowly, slowly, catch the monkey?
> ...



Seriously? 20 lives a year..a whole policy,millions if not billions of $ unexpected consequences like new cars being too dear/ dearer forcing people to keep their older cars longer and cascading down the second hand market to more real bombs on the road.
How many death extra will it create during the transition
Sure it is great for some but let's stop pretending it is to save lives..
Ohh and only for light vehicle ??? so you will carry on being compressed by the cement truck behind you at the next pile up...
Seriously..
Step one should be to mandate it on heavy vehicle...


----------



## rederob (12 November 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Seriously? 20 lives a year ..a whole policy,



AAA estimated the cost of accidents in the tens of billions 4 years ago:
• the economic cost of each road fatality was $4.34 million​• the cost per hospitalisation caused by road injury was $239,000​


qldfrog said:


> millions if not billions of $ unexpected consequences like new cars being too dear



In fact cars are getting cheaper and safer every year.  Chinese BEV market starts with cars from AU$7K (the Wuling).


qldfrog said:


> dearer forcing people to keep their older cars longer and cascading down the second hand market to more real bombs on the road.



The cost of the extra electronics is minimal, generally less than the extra cost of getting a coloured paint on a new car.  The suite nowadays on cars can include

cameras
ultrasonic sensors
radar, and most recently
lidar



qldfrog said:


> How many death extra will it create during the transition



The transition has been occurring for years now and here's the trend (and the government's target:





qldfrog said:


> Sure it is great for some but let's stop pretending it is to save lives..



The evidence is clear on what the technology does, so you are out of step.


qldfrog said:


> Step one should be to mandate it on heavy vehicle...



Mandate it for all vehicles!
Plus, mandate addition features for all heavy vehicles, such as proposed by NSW.


----------



## sptrawler (12 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Mandate it for all vehicles!
> Plus, mandate addition features for all heavy vehicles, such as proposed by NSW.



It will be mandated for all E.V's IMO, installing safety devices to control an electric motor is simple and has been used in industry for many years.


----------



## sptrawler (15 November 2021)

Not everyone is giving upon internal combustion engines.




__





						Toyota Forms ‘Team Japan’ To Help Keep Combustion Engine Alive
					





					www.msn.com
				



From the article:
The coalition will see the five companies develop carbon-neutral fuels for racing, meanwhile Toyota and Mazda will together to develop a 1.5-liter Skyactiv-D engine powered by biodiesel. Subaru will work with Toyota for 2022’s Super Taikyu Series endurance season, with both companies collaborating to make a biomass-derived synthetic fuel. Furthermore, Yamaha and Kawasaki are considering working on a hydrogen engine for motorcycles.
oyota clearly believes other solutions such as hydrogen will play their part in a sustainable future, an idea Tesla CEO Elon Musk has labelled “mind-bogglingly stupid” in the past. Despite all this, Toyota still intends to compete in the BEV space through the bz4x crossover which will arrive in mid-2022.
Toyota released the following statement after the announcement of the coalition:
"By promoting further collaboration in producing, transporting and using fuel in combination with internal combustion engines, the five companies aim to provide customers with greater choice."


----------



## rederob (18 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Not everyone is giving upon internal combustion engines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you followed the trends in vehicle manufacture then you would discover that Toyota is so far behind the BEV manufacturing curve that it will be largely relegated to its Japanese ICE vehicle base by 2030.
The BEV revolution was kicked off by Tesla in the USA, but it's now firmly established in China.  I won't link to the dozens of articles everyday that provide data on the trends, but will highlight that the rate of BEV adoption is ahead of every prediction I have read over the past few years.
While China is important to Tesla's profits, its major strength right now is from its vehicle product mix which ranges from 30K yuan upwards:


Here are some higher priced models also advertised on Alibaba:


While few of the above are going to be street legal in Australia, there are dozens of models which are, and only a few are more expensive than Teslas.  However, don't expect Chinese EVs to head to Oz for a good while as Europe can't get enough and American EV incentives in 2022 will divert most of the rest there.

Aside from producing cheap cars, China's big players are also teaming up with technology companies to match Tesla in AI and autonomous driving.  And the likes of BYD match Tesla in total vertical integration of production.

All the above points to BEVs getting cheaper, safer and smarter than their ICE competitors in coming years.


----------



## sptrawler (18 November 2021)

All very true @rederob ,I was only posting as a general information piece, to keep people abreast of what manufacturers are doing.


----------



## sptrawler (20 November 2021)

The latest E.V from China, an SUV that can take a 200klm charge in 5 minutes.
It also highlights how quickly the charging protocols are changing, a lot of the current infrastructure will be obsolete in the next couple of years, if ultra fast charging arrives. It will have to come, to reduce the time people have to sit and line up at a charging stations, which isn't a problem at the moment, but will become a problem when E.V are common place.
https://www.electrive.com/2021/11/19/xpeng-presents-the-g9-electric-suv/
From the article:
The Xpeng G9 uses the manufacturer’s recently announced 800-volt e-car platform with silicon carbide technology. Xpeng is not yet giving detailed information on the drive system or when it will be launched on the market.

The system that the company calls ‘XPower 3.0’, is designed for very high charging powers of up to 480 kW (600 amps at 800 volts). This should make it possible to recharge up to 200 kilometres in just five minutes. Xpeng had already mentioned this statement at the presentation of the 800-volt platform in October and has now repeated it in the announcement for the G9.

In order to be able to exploit the properties of the 800-volt SiC platform, Xpeng also wants to bring corresponding fast-charging columns onto the market. These will be able to deliver up to 670 amps and meet the IP67 protection class.

The Xpilot 4.0 is to be the first system “to enable intelligent driving in all scenarios from vehicle start to parking”. The hardware comes with 508 TOPS of processing power, a front camera with eight million pixels and four cameras with 2.9 million pixels. Xpeng has not yet made mention of the kind of array of lidar sensors that have been installed in the P5.

As with the previous models, the software is supposed to be one of the points that sets the G9 apart from the competition. To do this, it uses the X-EEA 3.0 electronics and electrical architecture, which deeply integrates hardware, software and communication architecture. Xpeng itself speaks of a centralised supercomputing platform and local control modules. At the software level, the vehicle software suite has been structured into layers – system software platform, basic software platform and intelligent application platform. This is to enable faster development and iteration of the software – i.e. regular software updates with improvements and new features.


----------



## Value Collector (20 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Not everyone is giving upon internal combustion engines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like when the iPhone came out, and some people thought the Black Berry still had a future because there would be Better Berry phones coming out, and iPhones were really just a toy, not for serious business folk.


----------



## rederob (21 November 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Sounds like when the iPhone came out, and some people thought the Black Berry still had a future because there would be Better Berry phones coming out, and iPhones were really just a toy, not for serious business folk.



The analogy has some differences so here's some pluses and minuses.
Pluses are:

some BEV models are already much cheaper than ICE equivalents
base models can be easily upgraded and customised
per kilometre running costs up to 80% less than ICE equivalents
allows for V2G, V2Hand V2L integration
most BEVs integrate a greater number and type of safety features than ICE equivalents
not much can mechanically go wrong
Minuses are:

heavier and need better suspension
replacement batteries are expensive
you cannot simply go out and buy the BEV you want
the infrastructure for adoption is immature, lacks standards and is variable (eg battery swap out versus recharge)
it will take up to 15 years to replace the ICE fleet
The above are just the differences that quickly come to mind.

Changing the subject, I came across this very detailed report from a U.S. Department of Energy laboratory prepared in April 2021.  The main problems with their comparisons relate to very few BEV's (apart from Teslas) have a 300 mile range, and BEV prices into the future being twice as high as what is available today.


Regarding prices in the USA, here's MG's SUV:


Once you factor in current real world lower prices and advances in battery technology that will increase energy density and therefore range, the transition to EVs becomes a no brainer.


----------



## mullokintyre (27 November 2021)

In the Weekend Australian motoring Journalist Stephen Corby suggests that the Top EV models could be "thousands cheaper".


> Electric vehicles in Australia could be not just cheaper, but tens of thousands of dollars less expensive if the federal government took the approach widely used in Europe by slashing luxury car tax, import duty, stamp duty and GST on EVs.
> 
> Those financial incentives would remove one of the biggest barriers to EV uptake – the high price of entry – and encourage car makers to bring more zero-emissions vehicles to Australia.
> 
> Modelling by The Australian shows EVs could cost between 10 and 25 per cent less by removing taxes and providing other incentives, pricing them more competitively with petrol alternatives.



The problem is that all this approach merely subsidises the profits of  overseas car makers.
Europe can  ease tax , stamp duty etc  because the profits from them come back to the European countries.
We don't mass produce any cars, any more, indeed we don't even do the  Knock down kits that were the bulk of oz cars back in the 70's.
AS usual, those with the most money want someone else to subsidise their EV.
All of these same foreign car manufacturers outsourced their building to cheap labour in Asian countries.
They have all said they will stop building ICE engines by 2030 or earlier.
Then Australian buyers will have no choice.
The manufacturers will be able to charge whatever they like, so why do they want subsidies now?
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (27 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> In the Weekend Australian motoring Journalist Stephen Corby suggests that the Top EV models could be "thousands cheaper".
> 
> The problem is that all this approach merely subsidises the profits of  overseas car makers.
> Europe can  ease tax , stamp duty etc  because the profits from them come back to the European countries.
> ...



The problem is though, adding a $10,000 battery to a car can push it over into the luxury car price, so it becomes a tax on batteries, not luxury cars.

The luxury car tax was originally brought in to discourage imports, how ever with all cars being imported these days it’s actually doing the opposite.

By taxing batteries, you are encouraging the importing of Oil for the life of the car, and transferring energy jobs over seas.

However if you encourage the use of electric cars you are creating less energy imports, and increasing demand in Australia’s local energy sector, that employs people all over Australia.

not to mention making the air cleaner in our cities is good for everyone, regardless of the income level of the person driving.


----------



## mullokintyre (28 November 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The problem is though, adding a $10,000 battery to a car can push it over into the luxury car price, so it becomes a tax on batteries, not luxury cars.
> 
> The luxury car tax was originally brought in to discourage imports, how ever with all cars being imported these days it’s actually doing the opposite.
> 
> ...



Sorry Vc, but that does not wash.
Why highlight the battery?
Why not the seats, or the tyres, or the electric engine  or any part of the vehicle?
If an electric vehicle industry or battery industry were established here in OZ, it would make sense to subside them.
As for transferring energy jobs overseas, virtually everything renewable has already been transferred overseas.
We import batteries, solar panels, wind  turbines, controllers, and now the whole cars themselves.
The Article highlights the cost of cars that with or without taxes, subsidies etc are well beyond the economic reach of the majority of Australians.
If it were not so, we would all be driving Porsche Cayenes are Audi A8's.
It is just another demand of the wealthy to subsidise their lifestyles by the other taxpayers.

Mick


----------



## rederob (28 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> In the Weekend Australian motoring Journalist Stephen Corby suggests that the Top EV models could be "thousands cheaper".
> 
> The problem is that all this approach merely subsidises the profits of  overseas car makers.
> Europe can  ease tax , stamp duty etc  because the profits from them come back to the European countries.



Removing taxes - which is an issue affecting government revenue - is not the same as granting an overseas manufacturer any benefit as their profit margin would not be affected.


mullokintyre said:


> AS usual, those with the most money want someone else to subsidise their EV.



Your "those with the most money" argument is nonsense.   Compliant high spec EVs could be landed in Australia from around $25k (which is less than half of what I paid for my son's car earlier this year), and the one I have linked to now has many other counterparts in mid-size and SUV range which are already price competitive when cost of ownership considerations are accounted for.   


mullokintyre said:


> All of these same foreign car manufacturers outsourced their building to cheap labour in Asian countries.



While Asian cheap labour is definitely a factor, my GM hire car in Uzbekistan - a high end Chevrolet - was locally made, while in Europe Slovakia is renown for being the highest manufacturer of vehicles on a per capita basis. That said, every major car manufacturer has a joint venture arrangement in China because it's not only the world's biggest car market, it's production infrastructure and technology is now superior to all but Tesla.


mullokintyre said:


> They have all said they will stop building ICE engines by 2030 or earlier.



The early cessation of ICE vehicle production is moot.  Battery manufacturing constraints are the only impediment to BEVs being most of the new car market from 2025, but based on CAGR whatever ICE vehicles will be sold, they won't be price competitive beyond that date.  That's in part why Korea and Japan have continued to develop hydrogen powered vehicles.


mullokintyre said:


> Then Australian buyers will have no choice.



That's a policy constraint rather than an issue of choice per se.  Chinese buyers have access to locally compliant cars from under US$5k and they have literally hundreds of vehicle choices available.  It's not a stretch to land compliant BEVs in Australia from $10k.


mullokintyre said:


> The manufacturers will be able to charge whatever they like, so why do they want subsidies now?



I think you have lost the plot on that point!

In any case, Australia will not be getting the cheaper EVs until there is a major policy shift, as this market will be continue to be dominated by European purchasers.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Sorry Vc, but that does not wash.
> Why highlight the battery?
> Why not the seats, or the tyres, or the electric engine  or any part of the vehicle?
> If an electric vehicle industry or battery industry were established here in OZ, it would make sense to subside them.
> ...



I highlight the battery because that is the main thing that makes electric cars more expensive, because a battery costs more than a fuel tank.

All cars have seats, motors etc, but if you have two cars that are equivalent in every way except one is electric and one is petrol, the electric one will be more expensive to make due to the battery.

Removing the luxury vehicle tax isn’t a subsidy, but you could also just increase the price at which it kicks in for zero emission vehicles, As I said, both rich people and poor people breathe the same air, if you reduce the taxes on ev’s you help more of the middle class have them as an option, and that would clean the air for everyone.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2021)

Tax is taken by the Governments to pay for their services, if the tax is taken off E.V's it has to be applied somewhere else, I suppose the excise on fuel could be increased to compensate for the reduction in gst etc on BEV's? But that would affect those who can least afford it the most.

The luxury car tax from memory kicks in at around $70k, as @ rederob says there are plenty of EV's available under that price, so having a subsidy for a high end car really doesn't help the lower socio economic group, which are really the ones that would benefit the most from an EV.

The fact is the price and affordability of the lower end EV's needs to be improved, that will come with economies of scale, as is happening in China, it is the same as all new technologies as it becomes more commonplace it becomes cheaper.
A person can still go into Big W, K Mart etc and buy a $100 mobile phone, or the person can go and but a $1,500 dollar phone, why should the taxpayer contribute toward the $1,500 phone? when it would probably be more cost effective and be a better social outcome if the taxpayer helped make the $100 more accessible to the needy?


----------



## rederob (28 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The fact is the price and affordability of the lower end EV's needs to be improved, that will come with economies of scale, as is happening in China, it is the same as all new technologies as it becomes more commonplace it becomes cheaper.



The fact is that EVs are already affordable on a life cost basis, and even more affordable in countries where the choice is so wide.  Lower-end EVs are as cheap as equivalent ICE but none are available here.  The other point is that EVs tend to be more technologically advanced and are loaded with safety features.
There is a lot of talk about range anxiety in Australia, but on the basis of needing a vehicle for work, fewer than one million Australians travel more than 50 kilometres a day:


Outside of work, my regular travels to the Gold Coast on a weekend by  way of example, are less than 100km each way, so with a decent charging infrastructure I could get by with an EV that had about 150km real world driving range.  That said, most model variants include larger battery pack options.


sptrawler said:


> A person can still go into Big W, K Mart etc and buy a $100 mobile phone, or the person can go and but a $1,500 dollar phone, why should the taxpayer contribute toward the $1,500 phone? when it would probably be more cost effective and be a better social outcome if the taxpayer helped make the $100 more accessible to the needy?



If the taxpayer isn't contributing anything then what difference does it make?  By way of any revenue offset, should that be a policy option, then a tax on sugar in drinks and manufactured foods could easily raise billions each year, and has a health benefit.
A different option again would be tax concessions based on vehicles with V2G or V2H capacity.  That option alone would negate the need for Snowy2.
A further option that has a societal payback would be tax concessions based on vehicle accident avoidance capacity.  
Yet another option would be to cap tax concessions at a landed cost of up to AU$35k, which is about $5k less than the average price of cars purchased in Australia.  That option would not be such a burden on the revenue base and improve affordability at the lower end of the price scale.
On the issue of cost of batteries, LiFePO4 (which I will just call LFP from now on) are much cheaper than Lithium Ion batteries and have a longer cycle life, eg 2000 cycles on 100% discharge.  So while batteries can be a major initial cost, LFP batteries can have a future well beyond the present 10 year average age of Australian cars.
The final consideration for any ICE car buyer now is the residual value at time of transition to an EV.  An interesting aside is that in Norway second hand EVs are sometimes selling for close to their original price as nobody wants an ICE and the waiting list for preferred new EVs is long.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Tax is taken by the Governments to pay for their services, if the tax is taken off E.V's it has to be applied somewhere else, I suppose the excise on fuel could be increased to compensate for the reduction in gst etc on BEV's? But that would affect those who can least afford it the most.
> 
> The luxury car tax from memory kicks in at around $70k, as @ rederob says there are plenty of EV's available under that price, so having a subsidy for a high end car really doesn't help the lower socio economic group, which are really the ones that would benefit the most from an EV.
> 
> ...



Tesla’s Model 3, is about $10k over the luxury vehicle tax for the standard range and more for the long range version, so you can say it’s pretty much the battery that is being taxed, and the long range battery taxed even more.

If you talk to most people the biggest thing stopping them getting an EV is range, the more range you want the bigger the battery, and the more expensive the car.

Rich people will by the car regardless, but adding $5K tax can be a deal breaker for a lot of middle class folks who would be stretching to get an EV to begin with before the tax.

I reckon Tesla should sell the batteries separately and install them on the day you pick up the car, that would avoid the tax hahaha.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Tax is taken by the Governments to pay for their services, if the tax is taken off E.V's it has to be applied somewhere else, I suppose the excise on fuel could be increased to compensate for the reduction in gst etc on BEV's? But that would affect those who can least afford it the most.
> 
> The luxury car tax from memory kicks in at around $70k, as @ rederob says there are plenty of EV's available under that price, so having a subsidy for a high end car really doesn't help the lower socio economic group, which are really the ones that would benefit the most from an EV.
> 
> ...



If Air pollution is reduced, the government’s health care spending of $2Billion related to air pollution will be reduced.

Also, both federal and state governments are invested heavily in Electricity, higher utilisation rates of these investments will increase revenue for the government.

Also the government could lease space for renewables such as offshore wind and hydro projects as they do in the UK which would increase government revenues from cash that would normally be going to Saudi Oil princes.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2021)

Value Collector said:


> If Air pollution is reduced, the government’s health care spending of $2Billion related to air pollution will be reduced.



That should help with the loss of about $12 billion in fuel excise tax, like I said tax has to be looked at in an overall view, rather than in isolation.
But whether people like it or not EV's are here to stay and it is just a case of how the transition happens that matters.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I reckon Tesla should sell the batteries separately and install them on the day you pick up the car, that would avoid the tax hahaha.



Agreed, I think the battery should be a lease item.
Which IMO is the way I think it will end up panning out, the disposal/recycling/repurposing of old EV batteries will have to be regulated IMO.
The last thing the government will want is backyard battery chop and hock shops, way too many nasty chemicals/ safety issues and fire issues, the easy way to address it is leasing the batteries and regulating the lease companies.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That should help with the loss of about $12 billion in fuel excise tax, like I said tax has to be looked at in an overall view, rather than in isolation.
> But whether people like it or not EV's are here to stay and it is just a case of how the transition happens that matters.



Sorry, I under estimated, it’s $11 Billion to $24 Billion in healthcare costs related to air pollution.

_*The health costs from mortality alone are estimated to be in the order of $11–24 billion per year (Begg 2007, Access Economics 2008). The health risk assessment undertaken for the review of Australia’s air quality*_









						Health impacts of air pollution
					

The major aim of monitoring and reducing air pollution is to reduce its adverse impacts on human health. Other aims are to prevent loss of amenity—for example, because of poor visibility or offensive odour, damage to vegetation, and corrosion of buildings and other infrastructure.




					soe.environment.gov.au


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## Value Collector (28 November 2021)

This document from 2002 says that Sydney alone had health care cost of about $4.7 Billion related to air pollution, and 3000 deaths.




			https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/-/media/OEH/Corporate-Site/Documents/Air/air-pollution-economics-health-costs-greater-sydney-metropolitan-region-050623.pdf


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## sptrawler (28 November 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Sorry, I under estimated, it’s $11 Billion to $24 Billion in healthcare costs related to air pollution.
> 
> _*The health costs from mortality alone are estimated to be in the order of $11–24 billion per year (Begg 2007, Access Economics 2008). The health risk assessment undertaken for the review of Australia’s air quality*_
> 
> ...



That sounds better.


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## Smurf1976 (28 November 2021)

sptrawler said:


> But whether people like it or not EV's are here to stay and it is just a case of how the transition happens that matters.



Yep, it's going to happen and at this point it's much like computers, smartphones, highways, cars themselves, air-conditioning or anything else.

Some will come up with arguments against but it'll happen regardless. Either you're on the train or you're standing on the platform yelling but either way it's departing right now.

Cars as such are here to stay and they're going electric with the only questions being around the detail.


----------



## qldfrog (28 November 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Yep, it's going to happen and at this point it's much like computers, smartphones, highways, cars themselves, air-conditioning or anything else.
> 
> Some will come up with arguments against but it'll happen regardless. Either you're on the train or you're standing on the platform yelling but either way it's departing right now.
> 
> Cars as such are here to stay and they're going electric with the only questions being around the detail.



I somewhat doubt EV as we see them with battery will be there to stay, i expect them to be transition only.
Maybe ev recharge with ammonia cells, hydrogen cells or just battery swap But the concept of going and charging your EV car at a station for even 20 minutes..nope..
And always put this in the concept of the reset, individual cars have no place, and only concern is city dwellers so shared cars taxis/ubers and public transport, you own nothing, be happy and do not travel
These taxis and automated transport will probably be EV but without lithium batteries..20y will tell us more


----------



## rederob (29 November 2021)

The chart below, produced by VW, shows why Europe will get all the EVs they can lay their hands on:


The obvious downside by way of comparisons, is range.  However, as noted previously, battery pack upgrades are available and the additional cost is in a fashion recoverable by way of energy storage capacity after the life of the vehicle.

Despite the present high cost of the very few EVs available in Australia, purchasing one now or sooner rather than later is likely to pay off.  That's because you will be able to offset the higher price today against the retained resale value (assuming a holding period of at about 3 years).


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## mullokintyre (29 November 2021)

rederob said:


> The chart below, produced by VW, shows why Europe will get all the EVs they can lay their hands on:
> View attachment 133542
> 
> The obvious downside by way of comparisons, is range.  However, as noted previously, battery pack upgrades are available and the additional cost is in a fashion recoverable by way of energy storage capacity after the life of the vehicle.
> ...



So how many do you own now?
Mick


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## moXJO (29 November 2021)

The big problem is that you can't get a decent range of evs in Australia yet.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> The big problem is that you can't get a decent range of evs in Australia yet.



The Tesla model 3 which is Australia’s leading EV, gets over 400kms range, that’s pretty decent in my opinion, it’s pretty much equal to most people fuel tank.

The added benefit though is you don’t have to go to a petrol station, if you arrive home with 5% charge you just plug in and it’s back to 400km range again in the morning.

Also, let’s say you did have to drive 500km in one day, so you need to charge some where through out that day, you don’t have to charge up to 100%, you just plug in for 5 or 6 minutes to get that extra 15% of so to get you home and then top up at home

This happened to me the other day, (for the first time in 2 years), I was driving round the city all day running errands, and by the time I was ready to head home it calculated that I would arrive home with 6% charge, that was a bit close for me so I stopped at a charger for literally only 3 mins, in which I took on about 15% charge then I drove home and plugged in.

Almost no one is going to be driving more than 400km without Stopping for a few minutes, And you won’t be driving 400km without passing a charger some where along the way.

to be honest when you plug in at home each time you park, it actually seems like you have unlimited range, because you almost never make traditional stops for fuel, your car is just always ready to go with a full tank.


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## moXJO (29 November 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The Tesla model 3 which is Australia’s leading EV, gets over 400kms range, that’s pretty decent in my opinion, it’s pretty much equal to most people fuel tank.
> 
> The added benefit though is you don’t have to go to a petrol station, if you arrive home with 5% charge you just plug in and it’s back to 400km range again in the morning.
> 
> ...



Sorry meant range of cars at different price points


----------



## JohnDe (29 November 2021)

Hi all. Interesting reading and some outdated information 

Tesla battery technology is at least 8 yeas ahead of everyone else, and battery technology includes the software side.

There are a lot of 10 year old Tesla's driving around with the original battery pack, capacity does drop but it is not a lot. Do some research and you'll find a lot of examples. Yes batteries have been known to fail, but so have internal combustion engines and transmissions; how many of those come with an 8 year warranty?

Recycling technology has been developed and there are companies bringing it on line now, like LIT Australia - "_Lithium Australia is joining international efforts to achieve zero-carbon status. How? By working towards a circular battery economy that enhances not only sustainability but also resource security worldwide_."

Yes the cost to purchase an EV is higher than an ICE, but the price parity is getting closer every day. The price of a Tesla has dropped over the past few years, and if you compare it to a similar ICE model there is not too much in it. Add in the cost of servicing over the warranty period and the Tesla may end up cheaper. No engine oil and filter changes, no spark plugs and drive belts to replace, brakes that last over 250,000km.

Yesterday my partner & I drove our Tesla M3 LR from Adelaide to Wallaroo, we had lunch and then bit of sightseeing and a drive around, before driving straight home. No range anxiety.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> Sorry meant range of cars at different price points



Yep, I agree there, as I said the thing that raises the price of EV’s is the battery, that’s why I say the luxury car tax is a battery tax when it comes to EV’s, and should be either abolished, or have the threshold raised by $20K for EV’s and other zero emission cars.


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## rederob (29 November 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Tesla battery technology is at least 8 yeas ahead of everyone else, and battery technology includes the software side.



Tesla is shifting to LFP for its "standard" models as Musk says he likes the idea of being able to charge to 100%.
BYD's blade battery is ahead of other LFP battery types and apart from Tesla's deal with CATL for LFP it's also rumoured they have a 10GWh deal with BYD.


----------



## JohnDe (29 November 2021)

rederob said:


> Tesla is shifting to LFP for its "standard" models as Musk says he likes the idea of being able to charge to 100%.
> BYD's blade battery is ahead of other LFP battery types and apart from Tesla's deal with CATL for LFP it's also rumoured they have a 10GWh deal with BYD.




Yes, the M3 standard range has had the LFP battery for several months. The advantage is 100% charge capability at all times. The disadvantage is weight.

When I took delivery of my M3 LR the recommended charging procedure was - charge to 80% capacity at all times, unless preparing for a road trip, then can be charged to 100%.

However, with Tesla's continual development of software, there has been a few 'over the air' software updates (think of iPhone updates) and one of those changed the recommended charge rate for my M3 to 90%, and at the same time my mileage range increased. With 100% charge still recommended for road trips.

Tesla are currently selling over 500,000 cars a year, that is a lot of proven battery technology and collected data.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 November 2021)

rederob said:


> The chart below, produced by VW, shows why Europe will get all the EVs they can lay their hands on:
> View attachment 133542
> 
> The obvious downside by way of comparisons, is range.  However, as noted previously, battery pack upgrades are available and the additional cost is in a fashion recoverable by way of energy storage capacity after the life of the vehicle.
> ...



Would be interesting to see towing capacity and how towing a load affects range.

Apart from Audi the EV's seem short of torque.


----------



## moXJO (29 November 2021)

I still need a Ute. I don't want that dicky looking one Tesla came up with though. I feel like I'm going to be waiting around for a long time.

Does the tesla autopilot feature work in Australia?


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2021)

moXJO said:


> I still need a Ute. I don't want that dicky looking one Tesla came up with though. I feel like I'm going to be waiting around for a long time.
> 
> Does the tesla autopilot feature work in Australia?



Yep, I use autopilot all the time.


----------



## rederob (29 November 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Would be interesting to see towing capacity and how towing a load affects range.
> 
> Apart from Audi the EV's seem short of torque.



If you tow a boat or a van on a regular basis you buy a vehicle fit for purpose. 
Presently not many large EVs are in production, and none will come to Australia for some years as neither Rivian nor Ford 150 nor GM's Hummer nor the Cybertruck look destined for here until late 2023 at earliest given preorders.  I believe about 19000 Atlis XT pickups will be coming to Qld for configuration to our standards from 2023. Otherwise we wait to see when Great Wall (Haval) and BYD bring out their pick ups, although 2023 again looks most likely.  No doubt  I have missed some from the smaller players.
As to torque, comparable EVs knock ICE vehicles out of the water (eg Ford's ICE F-150 has twice the horsepower and torque of its EV equivalent) , while the range issue will depend on available battery options, as both Rivian and Cybertruck have up to 800km range.


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2021)




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## rederob (30 November 2021)

The easiest way to incentivise EV ownership is for the government to include an interest free loan with any purchase, scaled to a capped price for any qualifying EV.  I would envisage such a policy being similar to a HEX debt, except that any outstanding amount would be expunged on sale of the vehicle.  *This *article shows why such a policy would make sense:


The article notes a Tesla 3 costs over $20k more than the average car.  However, after 3 years you are better off because the resale value of the EV is considerably higher ( a point I made in an earlier post).


----------



## JohnDe (1 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> I still need a Ute. I don't want that dicky looking one Tesla came up with though. I feel like I'm going to be waiting around for a long time.
> 
> Does the tesla autopilot feature work in Australia?



I'll never sell my Ute, a Holden VF SS-V. Valuation has gone crazy, I could sell it for the same price I paid for it new in 2014. Last of an icon :-(

Our Tesla is amazing, I compare it to a spaceship. The Auto Pilot is very handy for assisting in relaxed driving. I'd love to have Full Self Driving, but not at the price they are asking.


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## moXJO (1 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I'll never sell my Ute, a Holden VF SS-V. Valuation has gone crazy, I could sell it for the same price I paid for it new in 2014. Last of an icon :-(
> 
> Our Tesla is amazing, I compare it to a spaceship. The Auto Pilot is very handy for assisting in relaxed driving. I'd love to have Full Self Driving, but not at the price they are asking.



My parents could use the feature after driving behind them. How much is the full self driving? (If it's available yet)


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## Value Collector (1 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> My parents could use the feature after driving behind them. How much is the full self driving? (If it's available yet)



Full self driving is about $10k I think now.

But, even if you don’t buy the full self driving package you still get basic auto pilot, where the car will drive itself along the free way, 

But the full self driving feature will over take slower cars, and change lanes to navigate and merge off the freeway etc.

the full self driving is what Tesla intends to eventually be a full robo taxi experience, and you will get regular updates as more features are unlocked.


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## mullokintyre (1 December 2021)

Paris Marx, as good as an example of Nominative Determinism as I have seen in a while, writes in Business Insider that EV's won't save the planet, we need to get rid of ALL cars.


> Transportation accounts for 29% of greenhouse gas emissions in the United States, and more than half of that comes from passenger vehicles. Since taking office in January, the Biden administration has taken steps toward electrification, but also failed to sign onto a pledge announced at COP26 to phase out fossil-fuel vehicles by 2040.
> 
> Electric vehicles are one piece of a strategy to slash transport emissions, but they tend to receive far more attention than proposals to cut car use. The electrification of transportation is essential — there is no doubt about that — but just replacing every personal vehicle with a battery-powered equivalent will produce an environmental disaster of its own. Such a strategy also denies us the opportunity to rethink a near-century of misguided auto-oriented city planning.
> The focus on tailpipe emissions misses the bigger picture, and at a moment when we can see the complex, global nature of supply chains in our everyday lives, we need to think beyond such a limited framing of electric vehicles' environmental impact.
> ...



So there you have it.
Think of the money saved if there are no cars, trucks and buses at all.
All that money spent on roads, service stations, bridges, tunnels, freeway overpasses etc would be spent on public transport (as long as it doe not require a road). No need for fuel refineries, the savings would be enormous.
I have an old horse drawn buggy on the farm.
Needs a bit of work, but I am sure it can be restored.
Will probably have to resort to horse drawn ploughs,  and  scythes.
it will be great.
Mick


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## JohnDe (1 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Paris Marx, as good as an example of Nominative Determinism as I have seen
> 
> So there you have it.
> 
> ...




Another example of reluctance to change with the times. Introducing EV's is not all about 'saving the environment', it is also about improving transport and bringing it out of the 20th century, creating new opportunities, weening us off of imported oil.

Enjoy the cave Mick ;-)


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## Smurf1976 (1 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Paris Marx, as good as an example of Nominative Determinism as I have seen in a while, writes in Business Insider that EV's won't save the planet, we need to get rid of ALL cars.



Thing is, the article doesn't say that's required in order to save the planet.

It just points out that some minerals need to be moved around and refined and that there's some impacts on urban air quality but that's vastly different from any threat to the planet.

In the absence of a return to a mid-20th Century industrial economy where most people worked for a few big companies at the one location and work was the only real reason they travelled anywhere then cars are very much here to stay, no other method effectively gets people and objects not from A to B but from M to Q to C then down to Z effectively.

It's much the same as other technologies. Public transport is to moving people what broadcast TV and printed newspapers are to media. One size fits all - it works so long as everyone actually wants the same thing, they're going to the same place, but becomes hugely cumbersome when they're all going to somewhere different as is increasingly the case. Private vehicles are the equivalent of any on-demand service there, it gives the individual the thing they want without anyone else needing to want it at the same time.

There's still a place for public transport of course but the car is here to stay as well.


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## Sean K (1 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Tesla is shifting to LFP for its "standard" models as Musk says he likes the idea of being able to charge to 100%.
> BYD's blade battery is ahead of other LFP battery types and apart from Tesla's deal with CATL for LFP it's also rumoured they have a 10GWh deal with BYD.




Does this mean I should sell my Nickel stocks?


----------



## Value Collector (1 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Another example of reluctance to change with the times. Introducing EV's is not all about 'saving the environment', it is also about improving transport and bringing it out of the 20th century, creating new opportunities, weening us off of imported oil.
> 
> Enjoy the cave Mick ;-)



Agreed, Even if Climate Change didn’t exist I still would want my EV, it’s just such a more convenient form of motoring.

But also even if Climate change wasn’t a thing, we would still need to move towards Tech that doesn’t rely on oil, because whether it is 20, 40 or 60 years away we will hit peak oil before the babies being born today have finished living, whether that’s when they turn 18 or when the hit retirement, we need to have moved away from oil just because of the fact it’s not infinite.


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## Value Collector (1 December 2021)

Sean K said:


> Does this mean I should sell my Nickel stocks?



Maybe just keep some as part of a diversified group of miners.

The way I look at it is this. By investing in Nickel you are investing in one aspect of the technology associated with the trend towards Ev’s, and even if the trend to Ev’s continues, the battery tech might change and leave you behind.

Take the film industry as an example, it’s grown steadily for over 100 years, Disney made Snow White in 1938 and are still making millions from it each year, over the years Disney has used many different Techs to distribute Snow White, eg physical rolls of film, VHS cassettes, free to air broadcast towers, DVD’s, Blue ray, satellite TV, Cable, digital downloads, streaming subscriptions and probably others.

If you had invested in Disney itself you would make money over the years regardless of the tech used, how ever if you saw what Disney was doing and decided to invest in VHS cassettes, it would have been good for a while, but then competition and new tech would have destroyed you.


----------



## rederob (1 December 2021)

Sean K said:


> Does this mean I should sell my Nickel stocks?



Don't know!
Tesla's Cybertruck and Tesla's Semi will use nickel cathode material exclusively and all high end BEVs are going to use more energy dense nickel cathode batteries (based on what we know today).  The gigafactories for these are not yet operational, so there's a lot of demand being catered for which as yet has not bitten into nickel supply.  My suspicion is that present nickel tightness is largely due to the marginal additional demand of BEVs, and that this will incrementally see nickel prices stabilise at higher highs as the supply/demand balance tries to respond.  For example, Tesla's deals with BHP and Prony have yet to transfer supply from China to the USA.  Rystad chart this as follows:


*This *article is a good read, but is now outdated, despite being written earlier this year.  
Quickly getting back to nickel supply, warehouse levels continue to deplete this year, as shown at LME:


and 
Shanghai:


I am not sure how the forecasters are currently seeing nickel supply in surplus or, for that matter, the surplus continuing for another 2 years.  This article sums up my thinking.


----------



## Sean K (1 December 2021)

OK, thanks @rederob and @Value Collector , I shouldn't be writing off the mid term Ni supply demand just yet, even if Tesla changes their battery. Cheers


----------



## Value Collector (2 December 2021)

Sean K said:


> OK, I shouldn't be writing off the mid term Ni supply demand just yet, even if Tesla changes their battery. Cheers




definately not writing off Ni yet, if I were to compare it to VHS videos, I would say we are in June of 1982, and we have a lot of good years ahead, but DVDs will come.


----------



## moXJO (2 December 2021)

I want evs simply due to fuel possibly becoming scarce and more expensive.  The fact that I can rig up solar and charge it satisfies my inner preper.


----------



## qldfrog (2 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> I want evs simply due to fuel possibly becoming scarce and more expensive.  The fact that I can rig up solar and charge it satisfies my inner preper.



You understand that possibility basically ensures a coming tax on your solar capacity...
Like the idea, dread the coming consequences


----------



## Value Collector (2 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> I want evs simply due to fuel possibly becoming scarce and more expensive.  The fact that I can rig up solar and charge it satisfies my inner preper.



That’s my favourite part too, I remember some time in the first month or so of owning my EV, I was heading home for lunch after a morning driving round doing errands, and I realised that when I got home I was going to charge my car from the sun and replace all the “fuel” I had just used for free, and a sense of freedom just washed over me, hahaha, it’s a great feeling to be energy independent.


----------



## moXJO (2 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> You understand that possibility basically ensures a coming tax on your solar capacity...
> Like the idea, dread the coming consequences



By then my plans of the abolition of government will have come to pass.


----------



## JohnDe (3 December 2021)

_"Thousands of freight trucks and family cars could be forced off the roads within weeks over shortages of a special anti-pollution additive for diesel vehicles – a move that threatens to smash the nation’s already strained supply chain."_





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au
				




While we are reliant on imported oil, fuel and additives, (we will always be reliant on imported oil) our transport system will be at the mercy of circumstances out of our control. 

With a solar power system and battery storage, an EV is operational for as long as the sun shines and the battery is topped up. When the sun stops shining the battery can be topped up by wind turbines. And when the wind stops our hydro can help. When the hydro is out the gas and coal generators are used to top up the battery. Eventually our generators will be powered by hydrogen and possibly nuclear energy.

EV's are here to stay, for consumers and light to medium transport. Hydrogen will be the fuel of heavy industry.

Filled up my VF SS-V a few days ago at a cost of $127. Filled up the Tesla overnight at a cost of $16.25 (I have solar but no battery).


----------



## Investoradam (3 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Don't know!
> Tesla's Cybertruck and Tesla's Semi will use nickel cathode material exclusively and all high end BEVs are going to use more energy dense nickel cathode batteries (based on what we know today).  The gigafactories for these are not yet operational, so there's a lot of demand being catered for which as yet has not bitten into nickel supply.  My suspicion is that present nickel tightness is largely due to the marginal additional demand of BEVs, and that this will incrementally see nickel prices stabilise at higher highs as the supply/demand balance tries to respond.  For example, Tesla's deals with BHP and Prony have yet to transfer supply from China to the USA.  Rystad chart this as follows:
> View attachment 133674
> 
> ...



more toxic material dug from the ground. natural vegetation destroyed, poison waste materials pumped back in to the ground, atmosphere or run off in to the river ways! 
just like a fat person drinking diet soda and thinking it better for them as it says sugar free


----------



## JohnDe (3 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> more toxic material dug from the ground. natural vegetation destroyed, poison waste materials pumped back in to the ground, atmosphere or run off in to the river ways!
> just like a fat person drinking diet soda and thinking it better for them as it says sugar free




I'm just wondering how you posted that comment without using a computer made out of "_toxic material dug from the ground. natural vegetation destroyed, poison waste materials pumped back in to the ground, atmosphere or run off in to the river ways_"


----------



## qldfrog (3 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> more toxic material dug from the ground. natural vegetation destroyed, poison waste materials pumped back in to the ground, atmosphere or run off in to the river ways!
> just like a fat person drinking diet soda and thinking it better for them as it says sugar free



very good analogy, trouble is the ultimate push is not to move you to sugar free but to no drink at all, whereas in reasonable amount, it is like ham, red meat, alcohol and dare i say weed, is what makes life good


----------



## Investoradam (3 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> very good analogy, trouble is the ultimate push is not to move you to sugar free but to no drink at all, whereas in reasonable amount, it is like ham, red meat, alcohol and dare i say weed, is what makes life good



the powerbrokers of the world only want the good things for them self, the useful idiots the left aka the most stupid of stupid of society   (Vladimir Lenins terminology)
the want red meat and want us to have the fake meat and have the useful idiot believe that cows farting are the problem of this world


----------



## Investoradam (3 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I'm just wondering how you posted that comment without using a computer made out of "_toxic material dug from the ground. natural vegetation destroyed, poison waste materials pumped back in to the ground, atmosphere or run off in to the river ways_"



im not arguing that point. im just arguing the excuse to dig more out of the ground and the useful idiots blame coal and cows farting
I mean they have black African children digging the callout in the Congo out of the ground, yet preach to us about BLM
congo has around 70% of worlds total calbolt




__





						The largest cobalt reserves in the world by country
					

A single country accounts for more than half of the world's cobalt reserves, but new supply chains are being targeted as demand rises.




					www.nsenergybusiness.com
				




google all you want about the African child slaves








						Apple and Google named in US lawsuit over Congolese child cobalt mining deaths
					

Dell, Microsoft and Tesla also among tech firms named in case brought by families of children killed or injured while mining in DRC




					www.theguardian.com
				




yep cows farting are the issue


----------



## Investoradam (3 December 2021)

Volvo says emissions from making EVs can be 70% higher than petrol models - and claims it can take up to 9 YEARS of driving before they become greener​Volvo has said that emissions from the production of electric cars are far higher than a petrol equivalent, as it called on world leaders and energy providers to significantly boost investments in green energy to reduce the carbon footprint of plug-in models.

The Swedish car maker said that over a car's lifetime the electric version will become greener overall, though this will only be achieved after covering between 30,000 and 68,400 miles - taking between four and nine years for the average UK motorist. 

The claims were made to coincide with the COP26 climate summit taking place in Glasgow and as part of a revolutionary new transparency approach adopted by the brand, which includes publishing its latest 'Life Cycle Assessment' report for the pure-electric £57,400 C40 Recharge.








						Volvo says electric car making emissions are 70% HIGHER than petrol
					

Volvo said the C40 Recharge has a far lower carbon footprint during 'use phase' and if clean energy was used things would improve.




					www.thisismoney.co.uk


----------



## JohnDe (3 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> im not arguing that point. im just arguing the excuse to dig more out of the ground and the useful idiots blame coal and cows farting
> I mean they have black African children digging the callout in the Congo out of the ground, yet preach to us about BLM
> congo has around 70% of worlds total calbolt




As a consumer and investor, choose your products and investment so as not to own anything that offends you.

Australia has plenty of Cobalt, Tesla is weening itself off of Cobalt.

*The six largest cobalt reserves in the world by country*
_ 
1. Democratic Republic of Congo – 3.6 million tonnes
The DRC is home to more than 50% of the world’s cobalt reserves...

2. Australia – 1.4 million tonnes
Australia holds 1.4 million tonnes of cobalt, around 20% of the global share....

3. Cuba – 500,000 tonnes
Around 7% of the world’s cobalt reserves are based in Cuba.....

4. Philippines – 260,000 tonnes
The Philippines has cobalt reserves totalling 260,000 tonnes, around 4% of the global total....

5. Russia – 250,000 tonnes
While Russia has relatively small cobalt reserves of just 250,000 tonnes.....

6. Canada – 220,000 tonnes
Canada ranks sixth among the world’s largest cobalt reserves, which total 220,000 tonnes – or a 3% share of the global total._





__





						The largest cobalt reserves in the world by country
					

A single country accounts for more than half of the world's cobalt reserves, but new supply chains are being targeted as demand rises.




					www.nsenergybusiness.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> When the sun stops shining the battery can be topped up by wind turbines. And when the wind stops our hydro can help. When the hydro is out the gas and coal generators are used to top up the battery.



It can be done without the gas and coal bit there so long as it's all designed properly.

There are however many who'd not be happy with such an outcome hence the great debate about it all.

From a technical perspective though there's absolutely no reason society can't be powered fully by renewables in the Australian context and predominantly by them in the global context. Technically and economically it's doable if society chooses to.

As for oil, well Australia's rather short on conventional crude oil yes but we do have shale should we ever wish to use it indeed there's even a type of shale named after an Australian state. No prizes for guessing where Tasmanite shale is found. The bulk of Australian shale resources are in Qld but also known deposits in NSW, Tas and to a minor extent SA and WA.

I'd pick EV's over oil shale any day though. That's the way the world's going so no point in Australia, a country which imports all its cars, trying to fight that trend. Plus extracting oil from shale is a pretty nasty process environmentally.


----------



## JohnDe (3 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> Volvo says emissions from making EVs can be 70% higher than petrol models - and claims it can take up to 9 YEARS of driving before they become greener​




Of course Volvo would say that, they only sell about 4% of the worlds EV vehicles. Volvo are still learning how to manufacture an efficient EV.












						Plug-in EV producers - worldwide market share | Statista
					

Tesla was ranked as the best-selling electric vehicle manufacturer worldwide after selling close to 936,200 units in 2021.




					www.statista.com


----------



## JohnDe (3 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> It can be done without the gas and coal bit there so long as it's all designed properly.
> 
> There are however many who'd not be happy with such an outcome hence the great debate about it all.
> 
> ...




Yes, agreed. I've been a science and science fiction nut from when I was old enough to read, I've been waiting for a world of EV's and renewable energy for a long time. However, I also understand the reluctance of people to change and why it has taken so long for me to own a efficient EV. There's no point arguing with people still fighting for old technology, because change is coming faster than anyone expected and it is picking up speed.

Shale oil would be a last resort, the cost to refine it is much higher than crude, and shale has a lot more nasties in it. If people had to pay $3 or $4 per litre for shale oil, over 10c - 50c per kWh, I think they'd be more willing to change to an EV


----------



## basilio (3 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Shale oil would be a last resort, the cost to refine it is much higher than crude, and shale has a lot more nasties in it. If people had to pay $3 or $4 per litre for shale oil, over 10c - 50c per kWh, I think they'd be more willing to change to an EV




Evidence based thinking ?  Rational approach to risks ? What a great advance that would be.


----------



## JohnDe (3 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Evidence based thinking ?  Rational approach to risks ? What a great advance that would be.




_"Shale oil prepared by pyrolysis of Jordanian oil shale was characterized and compared to petroleum. Results show that shale oil compares well to crude oil and its fractions. For example, 85% of the shale oil sample fractions fall within the range of the light and heavy gas oil fractions. The 50% boiling range temperature of shale oil is 305°C, whereas for light and heavy gas oils, they are 270°C and 425°C, respectively. This indicates that shale oil may be used as a substitute for gas oil or heavy fuel oil. Major disadvantages of shale oil are that it has high aromatics, heavy metals, and sulfur contents of more than 8.3%."_









						Characterization of Shale Oil as Compared to Crude Oil and Some Refined Petroleum Products
					

(2003). Characterization of Shale Oil as Compared to Crude Oil and Some Refined Petroleum Products. Energy Sources: Vol. 25, No. 12, pp. 1171-1182.



					www.tandfonline.com


----------



## Investoradam (3 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Of course Volvo would say that, they only sell about 4% of the worlds EV vehicles. Volvo are still learning how to manufacture an efficient EV.
> 
> View attachment 133752
> 
> ...



Volvo are a smart business and generally leading the heard in many ways.
they would have had an R&D department for  electric cars for a while 

how would Volvos cars components greatly differ from other electric car manufactures? not greatly


----------



## Investoradam (3 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> As a consumer and investor, choose your products and investment so as not to own anything that offends you.
> 
> Australia has plenty of Cobalt, Tesla is weening itself off of Cobalt.
> 
> ...



just pointing out where most of it comes from!

nice attempt at selecting the atrocities of what is happening there. that has been chosen to ignored by the idiot left and other green energy scammers


----------



## rederob (3 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> Volvo are a smart business and generally leading the heard in many ways.
> they would have had an R&D department for  electric cars for a while
> 
> how would Volvos cars components greatly differ from other electric car manufactures? not greatly



Volvo does not use _ev-_platforms for their NEVs so they are inefficient manufacturers.
Also Tesla's batteries, by way of example, are 92% recyclable. 
However, LFP batteries don't have the energy or mineral impact of Tesla's batteries.
Simple bottom line is that regardless of metrics, on life cycle bases BEVs are significantly less CO2 polluting than ICE vehicles.


----------



## Investoradam (3 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Volvo does not use _ev-_platforms for their NEVs so they are inefficient manufacturers.
> Also Tesla's batteries, by way of example, are 92% recyclable.
> However, LFP batteries don't have the energy or mineral impact of Tesla's batteries.
> Simple bottom line is that regardless of metrics, on life cycle bases BEVs are significantly less CO2 polluting than ICE vehicles.



the 92% is claimed! like everything else claimed about green tech is a scam and load of tripe








						New Tesla Battery Recycling Process Reportedly Produces No Waste
					

Tesla has been working with with third party companies to recycle batteries, but now it says its own process is superior.




					insideevs.com
				




why to you ev loons keep dribbling on about c02 solution 

lets just ignore all the extra toxic materials dug from the ground, lithium, nickel, cobalt, coal (yes haha), copper etc, the distraction of land, blast, mining, refining, production of making materials, life span, land fill etc

its like buying a diet coke thinking its healthy as the label says no sugar


----------



## Value Collector (3 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> more toxic material dug from the ground. natural vegetation destroyed, poison waste materials pumped back in to the ground, atmosphere or run off in to the river ways!
> just like a fat person drinking diet soda and thinking it better for them as it says sugar free



You did up the battery materials once, and then the last the life of the car and can be recycled unlimited times, where as you have to be constantly drilling for oil all the time.


----------



## Value Collector (3 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> im not arguing that point. im just arguing the excuse to dig more out of the ground and the useful idiots blame coal and cows farting
> I mean they have black African children digging the callout in the Congo out of the ground, yet preach to us about BLM
> congo has around 70% of worlds total calbolt
> 
> ...



Tesla batteries don’t use cobolt (anymore)


----------



## JohnDe (3 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> Volvo are a smart business and generally leading the heard in many ways.
> they would have had an R&D department for  electric cars for a while
> 
> how would Volvos cars components greatly differ from other electric car manufactures? not greatly




Maybe you missed this -


*1999 Ford acquires Volvo car operations.* https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/02/volv-f04.html
*Ford sells Volvo to Chinese group. * https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/mar/28/chinese-group-buys-volvo


----------



## Investoradam (3 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Maybe you missed this -
> 
> 
> *1999 Ford acquires Volvo car operations.* https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/02/volv-f04.html
> *Ford sells Volvo to Chinese group. * https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/mar/28/chinese-group-buys-volvo



most parts would come from china regardless of manufacture brand


----------



## Value Collector (3 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> most parts would come from china regardless of manufacture brand



You might be interested in this video, all the supporting studies are listed in the description of the video.


----------



## JohnDe (4 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> most parts would come from china regardless of manufacture brand












						Volvo starts up its first dedicated battery assembly line
					

The Swedish carmaker set itself ambitious electric vehicle goals and has started taking the steps to meet them.




					www.drive.com.au
				




_Volvo Cars__ has opened its first dedicated battery assembly line at its manufacturing plant in Ghent, Belgium.
The Swedish carmaker plans to have all-electric models account for 50 per cent of its sales by 2025, with its entire fleet featuring full-electric or hybrid powertrains.”_


Tesla achieves annual run rate of 1 million electric cars​








						Tesla achieves annual run rate of 1 million electric cars - incredible milestone
					

Tesla has confirmed that it has achieved an annual run rate of 1 million electric cars per year at the...



					electrek.co


----------



## Investoradam (4 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Volvo starts up its first dedicated battery assembly line
> 
> 
> The Swedish carmaker set itself ambitious electric vehicle goals and has started taking the steps to meet them.
> ...



assembly line. but good to see the cars being put together in Europe not an asian country with much lower wages

most individual parts would be made in china unfortunately


----------



## Investoradam (4 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> You might be interested in this video, all the supporting studies are listed in the description of the video.




why do people never mention the destruction to the land & omissions of digging for the product, then the refining and production of the materials, the poison gases & waste pumped in to the atmosphere or river ways


----------



## JohnDe (4 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> assembly line. but good to see the cars being put together in Europe not an asian country with much lower wages
> 
> most individual parts would be made in china unfortunately




Yes, Volvo will have 50% of their vehicles all EV’s by 2025. As you said, Volvo are pretty smart, they see the writing on the wall. 😊


----------



## JohnDe (4 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> why do people never mention the destruction to the land & omissions of digging for the product, then the refining and production of the materials, the poison gases & waste pumped in to the atmosphere or river ways



 What are you talking about? Everyone is talking about the environment & how we can improve. Hence the increase in sales of EV’s


----------



## orr (4 December 2021)

I can't speak for all 'EV loons' , But I do like the date of your sign up to the forums Investor*?*adam. Is it that you've missed the multipuls on EV stock and afiliates since that date, that leads to the sour grapes.
Can you with a straight bat reflect on century and a half of Petro envornmental and geo political history and come out swinging at the move to Electric transport as being some how reprehensible due to anomilies in extremly _problematic_ jurisdictions.

My guess; no doubt you can....


----------



## Investoradam (4 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> What are you talking about? Everyone is talking about the environment & how we can improve. Hence the increase in sales of EV’s



the sales of EV is something new and flash on the market! woke and a new trend 
its like thinking something that is titled sugar free is good for you!


----------



## Investoradam (4 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Yes, Volvo will have 50% of their vehicles all EV’s by 2025. As you said, Volvo are pretty smart, they see the writing on the wall. 😊



they cannot make a combustable engine burn any cleaner and wil not meet omission targets Over the next decade or so hence the endless promotion and predictions of electric cars

electric along with hydrogen cars electric cars have been around for decades.combustable engines were always the choice as they could continue to make the dated technology cleaner and meet the set omission targets
its basic comsumerism  









						The General Motors CEO who killed the original electric car is now in the electric car business
					

Under Rick Wagoner, GM destroyed its electric fleet.




					qz.com


----------



## Value Collector (4 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> why do people never mention the destruction to the land & omissions of digging for the product, then the refining and production of the materials, the poison gases & waste pumped in to the atmosphere or river ways



Do mean when they are drilling for the oil, and refining it?

You could also say why don’t people mention the recycling of materials, because as I mentioned before the battery materials will be almost endlessly recycled, meaning the accounting of the environmental impact will be spread across multiple generations of vehicles, not just the first one.

if you take a look at BHP nickel mine for example, they aren’t despoiling rivers and the air as you claim, and a lot of lithium mines don’t dig at all, they pump it out of the ground water.

of mining materials has some environmental impact, but so does drilling and refining oil, and as pointed out you have to be continuously mining oil rather than just producing the battery once, and perhaps recycling it for a long time.


----------



## JohnDe (4 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> the sales of EV is something new and flash on the market! woke and a new trend
> its like thinking something that is titled sugar free is good for you!




EV's are anything but new. As an investor I thought that you'd be on top of this. The world is bigger than just Australia ;-)


Electric vehicles first appeared in the mid-19th century. An electric vehicle held the vehicular land speed record until around 1900


The Nissan Leaf, introduced in Japan and the United States in December 2010, became the first modern all-electric, zero tailpipe emission five door family hatchback to be produced for the mass market from a major manufacturer.[108][109] As of January 2013, the Leaf is also available in Australia, Canada and 17 European countries.


The Smart electric drive, Wheego Whip LiFe, Mia electric, Volvo C30 Electric, and the Ford Focus Electric were launched for retail customers during 2011.


The next Tesla vehicle, the Model S, was released in the U.S. on 22 June 2012[124] and the first delivery of a Model S to a retail customer in Europe took place on 7 August 2013.[125] Deliveries in China began on 22 April 2014.


Other models released to the market in 2012 and 2013 include the BMW ActiveE, Coda, Renault Fluence Z.E., Honda Fit EV, Toyota RAV4 EV, Renault Zoe, Roewe E50, Mahindra e2o, Chevrolet Spark EV, Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Electric Drive, Fiat 500e, Volkswagen e-Up!, BMW i3, and Kandi EV.


The Renault–Nissan Alliance reached global sales of 100,000 all-electric vehicles in July 2013.


In May 2015, global sales of highway legal all-electric passenger cars and light utility vehicles passed the 500,000 unit milestone


As of August 2015, China ranked as the world's second top-selling country plug-in market


The Tesla Model 3 was unveiled on 31 March 2016. With pricing starting at US$35,000 and an all-electric range of 345 km (215 miles), the Model 3 is Tesla Motors first vehicle aimed for the mass market.


The Hyundai Ioniq Electric was released in South Korea in July 2016


In February 2017 Consumer Reports named Tesla as the top car brand in the United States and ranked it 8th among global carmakers


In September 2018, the Norwegian market share of all-electric cars reached 45.3% and plug-in hybrids 14.9%, 


Tesla delivered its 100,000th Model 3 in October 2018.[201] U.S. sales of the Model 3 reached the 100,000 unit milestone in November 2018, quicker than any previous model sold in the country.[202] The Model 3 was the top-selling plug-in electric car in the U.S. for 12 consecutive months since January 2018


The Nissan Leaf was Norway's best selling new passenger car model in 2018


The global stock of plug-in electric passenger cars reached 5.1 million units in December 2018









						History of the electric vehicle - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## JohnDe (4 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> its basic comsumerism
> 
> 
> 
> ...




True, and the consumer is fast turning to EV's, hence the mad rush by all the conventional auto makers to develop and introduce EV's into their range.

As for GM; you do know that they went bankrupt in 2009 and had to have a massive government bailout to keep the doors open?

_"On June 1, 2009 General Motors filed for bankruptcy in New York, with $82 billion in assets and $173 billion in liabilities. It was the largest industrial bankruptcy in history."_


----------



## Value Collector (4 December 2021)

GM never actually wanted to produce the EV1 (that’s the EV they ended up killing).

it was what the industry calls a “compliance car”, The state of California brought in a law saying 1% of cars sold or leased had to be zero emissions, so in order to sell 99 petrol cars the had to produce 1 EV.

they ended up lobbying hard and killed the law, and then killed the EV.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> they ended up lobbying hard and killed the law, and then killed the EV.



And with that way of thinking entrenched in the company, in due course they ended up killing GM as well.

OK, it's not quite dead but GM is a shadow of what was back in the days when it was pretty much the very definition and ultimate symbol of US big business. These days anyone looking for a company to fit that definition would be looking at the tech area and whilst they'd probably not pick Tesla, it wouldn't be far down the list. It's a lot more relevant than GM these days just as a business, without saying anything about their products.


----------



## Investoradam (5 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> And with that way of thinking entrenched in the company, in due course they ended up killing GM as well.
> 
> OK, it's not quite dead but GM is a shadow of what was back in the days when it was pretty much the very definition and ultimate symbol of US big business. These days anyone looking for a company to fit that definition would be looking at the tech area and whilst they'd probably not pick Tesla, it wouldn't be far down the list. It's a lot more relevant than GM these days just as a business, without saying anything about their products.



you think the lobby groups are a bunch of individuals?
or maybe they started importing parts and cars from SE Asia and worked out they could push the boundaries and milk the combustion engine longer?


----------



## JohnDe (5 December 2021)

Tesla Model 3 costs $14,000 less to own than average petrol car​








						Tesla Model 3 costs $14,000 less to own than average petrol car
					

A Model 3 could already be considerably cheaper to own than an average Australian car. Is it true, and how?




					thedriven.io


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 December 2021)

Investoradam said:


> you think the lobby groups are a bunch of individuals?



Who said anything about lobby groups?

My point is really quite simple.

Not that long ago, well within living memory, General Motors was one of the absolute symbols not only of cars but of the US as a country. The two were joined at the hip - "What's good for General Motors is good for America" as they used to say. It was right up there as a key symbol of American business and for that matter the country itself.

GM has nowhere even remotely close to that status these days. Ask someone about giants of American business and symbolically important companies and they'll point to the tech stocks or maybe Boeing, McDonald's or even Disney but it sure won't be GM.

GM's scrapping of functioning EV's in order to cling onto existing technology is a Kodak moment just like that company's failure to embrace the digital imaging technologies it invented and now they're scrambling to avoid the same fate.

The writing's been on the wall for a very long time with all this. Given that the push to move cars away from petrol goes back almost half a century, someone was always going to do it at some point with or without anyone lobbying.


----------



## qldfrog (5 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Tesla Model 3 costs $14,000 less to own than average petrol car​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A long rant after following the previous exchanges
$
Tell me when i can spent less than 30 k and i can get an ev matching the pleasure driving of my wife mx5 convertible,or when i can get a ute to drive in my paddocks, cross our creeks drag a 2.5t delivery machine from a dip,pull a trailer load of gravel that the tradie hilux could not pull up the steep driveway in my place.
Current value of that ute on redbook below $10k, 200k km on clock so can easily do another 10y .8l diesel or colza oil per 100km..i am sure where the money get its best value.
As an engineer and quite tech  progress minded, i like EVs. For the concept. Charge on home solar, takeoff speed ,ease of maintenance,easy integration for autonomous driving and sever us from oil consumption and related wars 
But at this stage,if using lithium batteries, they are city and highway cars so more comparable to the mini cars at 20k, cost far far too much to be a decent alternative to the masses and ate not green in any way if recharged on the grid.
It is a wet greenwash dream of the same crowds who would have bought Mercs and beemers decades ago.
Nice little woke toys for an inner city crowds who can not hold its joy of putting the commoners back in public transports,living  in housing commissions with a shared garden and fresh coat of paint to become social sustainable housing, while they cruise the now empty city highways in their EVs.
Part and integral component of the Reset.but ultimately even Stalin henchmen ended hanging or shot...

You can like the technology but never forget the narrative,why and the impacts..look at what social media became..
EVs stlll need subsidies and now mandatory shutting of ICE to be produced after decades of recent developments
that says it all.
Tesla is soon going to *be able* to make 1million car a year. 
While 73 millions were built this year .....
So more suppressing and mandatory "choices" ahead. We will indeed see more EVs as we as peons of the west will have no choice.
like Covid jabs..your choice as long as you do not want to work. live.😊
In Europe, it works with ICE bans in areas, obviously taxes and now laws.
I  know that history has always found that government mandated choices mostly end up badly.
Be happy in your self driving EVUber freeing you to watch  funny YouTube cat videos or hate posting against these bastards still owning lands and houses,or wearing clothes,eating meat or fleeing  tracking 

In short, i think looking at EVs on a pure technical value is missing the point.
I like computer technology,worked on AI tracking. Face recognition, gait tracking,etc..amazing powerful technology well past what most people even imagine possible.. but the use of it, the what and why..ohh the nightmare
I retired..EVs are the same.make no mistake. A mean to an end.


----------



## divs4ever (5 December 2021)

wait until they finally work out they need us old retirees  out and about  , traveling and consuming to keep to economy afloat ( and they could have solved the pollution problem by giving us all mobility scooters )

 but of course they won't because they believe their own narrative


----------



## rederob (5 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> But at this stage,if using lithium batteries, they are city and highway cars so more comparable to the mini cars at 20k, cost far far too much to be a decent alternative to the masses and ate not green in any way if recharged on the grid.



*Most cars* - ICE or NEV - are city and highway cars so that's not a relevant point. However, the linked article is accurate and the proof of the pudding is in Norway used EV prices today:




qldfrog said:


> It is a wet greenwash dream of the same crowds who would have bought Mercs and beemers decades ago.
> Nice little woke toys for an inner city crowds who can not hold its joy of putting the commoners back in public transports,living  in housing commissions with a shared garden and fresh coat of paint to become social sustainable housing, while they cruise the now empty city highways in their EVs.
> Part and integral component of the Reset.but ultimately even Stalin henchmen ended hanging or shot...



It's actually the vehicle of choice for Chinese buyers who have literally hundreds of vehicle options ranging in price from US$5k upwards, as evidenced by Wuling sales which exceed Tesla's.  So you could not be more wrong!


qldfrog said:


> You can like the technology but never forget the narrative,why and the impacts..look at what social media became..
> EVs stlll need subsidies and now mandatory shutting of ICE to be produced after decades of recent developments
> that says it all.



No they don't!  Only western government taxes are pricing comparable EVs out of traditional ICE markets.  XPeng's P5 is cheaper and more technologically advanced than comparable Teslas.


qldfrog said:


> Tesla is soon going to *be able* to make 1million car a year.
> While 73 millions were built this year .....



China alone expects around 3 million NEVs to be built this year, and more than double that again next year. Tesla alone by 2023 should be knocking out around 2 million units and has a planned growth trajectory of 50% a year!


qldfrog said:


> In short, i think looking at EVs on a pure technical value is missing the point.
> I like computer technology,worked on AI tracking. Face recognition, gait tracking,etc..amazing powerful technology well past what most people even imagine possible.. but the use of it, the what and why..ohh the nightmare



EVs will incorporate all relevant and available technology.  Some EVs already have face recognition and use this as the "key" to start the car.  Newer Chinese EVs are using lidar and have more sensors than Teslas to improve the driving experience and safe operation of the car.   And as Tesla has proven, their EVs are already significantly safer than equivalent ICE vehicles
- a  trend that will transfer across the entire vehicle industry over time.
Nations that quickly embrace EVs will have a big advantage in productivity as the metadata being collected leads to reduced trip times and servicing downtime, while also ensuring transport vehicles operate optimally to all driving conditions.
I think your understanding of the NEV market is so hindsighted it clouds your judgement.


----------



## JohnDe (5 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Tell me when i can spent less than 30 k and i can get an ev matching the pleasure driving of my wife mx5 convertible
> 
> It is a wet greenwash dream of the same crowds who would have bought Mercs and beemers decades ago.
> Nice little woke toys for an inner city crowds
> ...




*Find me a 2021 Mazda MX-5 convertible for $30,000*, I'll buy two.

There's that term 'woke' again. Reminds me of growing up in the early 70's & 80's, being called names because my father was Italian, even though I was born in Australia and my mother was of Australian of English heritage. Poor form qfrog. FYB, I own a VF SS-V Ute, which I will never sell, I have been involved in the automotive industry since I was a teenager, I've never owned a Mercedes.

Yes, you are missing the point on EV's, it is not just about the "pure technical value", it is also about the joy of driving, of not dropping into the petrol station, the feeling of driving a vehicle that uses regenerative braking to re-charge and not having to waste energy through a braking system. Until you drive one you are just hypothesising.

"EVs are the same.make no mistake. A mean to an end." If that' the case, why bring your wife's car to the debate?

Do yourself a favour, go drive a Tesla M3 for an hour or so.


----------



## qldfrog (5 December 2021)

As long as you believe in your narrative you will be happy 
mx5 new 36k so not hard to find a decent one below 30k..
and the good thing with ice is they can still drive after 10y.as you know.
The fact is EVs are too expensive for commoners, but that may be the whole purpose .. isn't itanyway, just wanted to put my views out after your duel


----------



## rederob (5 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> and the good thing with ice is they can still drive after 10y.as you know.



Yes, and they will have cost an arm and a leg to operate over that period compared to a BEV, while the BEV's battery alone would be worth as much as the 10 year old ICE vehicle.


qldfrog said:


> The fact is EVs are too expensive for commoners, but that may be the whole purpose .. isn't itanyway, just wanted to put my views out after your duel



Just another uninformed comment.  It's a bit like saying tradies should buy their tools from ALDI because they are more affordable.  However, as was shown in the earlier link, Tesla's barely lose their resale value and after 3 years are a much smarter purchase than an equivalent ICE.


----------



## JohnDe (5 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> As long as you believe in your narrative you will be happy
> mx5 new 36k so not hard to find a decent one below 30k..
> and the good thing with ice is they can still drive after 10y.as you know.
> The fact is EVs are too expensive for commoners, but that may be the whole purpose .. isn't itanyway, just wanted to put my views out after your duel



Post a link of a new 2021 MX-5 convertible, with pricing. It was you that mentioned the car for under $30,000.


----------



## divs4ever (5 December 2021)

actually  the tools were bought at Bunnings/Aldi because the workers lose them regularly  ( quality doesn't count  if it is still sitting around the yard in the last job ) ( now if you are a one-man-band  and careful with your stuff  , the dynamics change markedly )

 ALSO ICE  has been a cash cow for governments  , taxes  fees , registrations , tolls  ( remember the government had to build all that infrastructure  so it could effectively administer the state/nation )

 who pays for what in an EV subsidized world ( i bet it isn't the government's own pocket )


----------



## rederob (5 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> actually  the tools were bought at Bunnings/Aldi because the workers lose them regularly  ( quality doesn't count  if it is still sitting around the yard in the last job ) ( now if you are a one-man-band  and careful with your stuff  , the dynamics change markedly )



I am still using my mechanical clutch 2-speed Black and Decker electric drill  (made in England in the 70s) so buying quality products counts in the long run.


divs4ever said:


> ALSO ICE  has been a cash cow for governments , taxes  fees , registrations , tolls  ( remember the government had to build all that infrastructure  so it could effectively administer the state/nation )



Nothing prevents governments from treating NEVs in the same way.  However, the health and safety benefits of NEVs will be in the tens of billions annually.  That's aside from productivity benefits.


divs4ever said:


> who pays for what in an EV subsidized world ( i bet it isn't the government's own pocket )



Why do EVs need to be subsidised?


----------



## qldfrog (5 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> JohnDe said:
> 
> 
> > Post a link of a new 2021 MX-5 convertible, with pricing. It was you that mentioned the car for under $30,000.



That's what i call woke:
Reading what you want.and running with your narrative.
where did you read new?
cause i did not write it anywhere
I later gave you 36k as current price..new but you run with that wrong idea..typical, why argue with facts when you are rightful..and as you believe you are , obviously, right no stop...just surprise you are not younger
So , for facts, we
bought a 2y old mx5 below 30k, probably 5y ago? .latest shape, etc.
New? from 36k..google this morning.
Lowest EV 40k+ xiththe nice MGB
Drive the MGB or the mx5 roof off in noosa hinterland  and compare...
Anyway, no point, noted the offended woke /wog reference,but targetting a migrant, who was installing solar pv 20y ago and created a 400 acres nature refuge from scratch, really?
Real ecology is not woke, but it requires effort and has no bragging rights.sorry..
And do far EV is not green.
Bring green h2 and h2 fuel cells, that could do it..and really looking forward genuinely for that
But not yet
Over from me.have a nice week end


----------



## divs4ever (5 December 2021)

you can see extra penalties on ICE  coming miles away  AND the government will have the upgrade  the electricity grid ( probably by bullying power  companies )

 ( smokers end up subsidizing the health-care industry  as an example  , but how are governments going to calculate car registration fees  , QLD so far  bases it on engine cylinders  , so assuming an EV  will be charged at the 4 ( or less ) rate  compared to the luxury car rate  8 plus  that is effectively a subsidy  ( not counting speedy approvals to extra charging stations  , needed to make EVs viable for general use )

 electric vehicles have been made for over 100 years  , i am not saying history has proved them inferior , but history has preferred improving ICE over that last century 

 so somebody  including super-rich oil barons ( and monarchs ) obviously had incentive to improve ICE usage 

 do you really think a guilt-trip will work on dedicated petrol-heads ( i think not ) although some might still keep them carefully stored in sheds as collectibles


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> do you really think a guilt-trip will work on dedicated petrol-heads ( i think not ) although some might still keep them carefully stored in sheds as collectibles



Figuring out that their V8 can’t beat a soccer mums electric minivan in a drag might start convincing them.


----------



## divs4ever (5 December 2021)

LOL

 i could beat them  in the 1970's  on a bicycle  ( standing start and across an intersection , big or small ) ( and overtake them on selected stretches  sometime road camber counts )
 but there was no outbreak in racing bike purchases  in the next 10 years 

 a true petrolhead loves their beast for various reasons ( i have known several of them ) , but sure some just love rapid acceleration  and they MIGHT swing to EVs as road rules become more draconian 

( my first  driving experience  was a home-made go-kart  and they are just awesome  when maneuverability counts  and no slouch on the zero to 100 mile an hour metric )

 but the V8 was more about picking up girls than real performance  (otherwise European super cars would be the dominant male toy )


----------



## rederob (5 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> you can see extra penalties on ICE  coming miles away  AND the government will have the upgrade  the electricity grid (probably by bullying power  companies)



That's a guess, although upgrading the grid is an essential part of shifting to deversified energy.


divs4ever said:


> ( smokers end up subsidizing the health-care industry  as an example



Actually smokers remain a net cost.


divs4ever said:


> , but how are governments going to calculate car registration fees  , QLD so far  bases it on engine cylinders  ,



Nope, done....




divs4ever said:


> electric vehicles have been made for over 100 years  , i am not saying history has proved them inferior , but history has preferred improving ICE over that last century



Except for weight, BEVs are now equal to or superior in performance - see the Plaid versus Chiron and then compare costs of each!


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> you can see extra penalties on ICE coming miles away



Political suicide until such time as the only people still using them are rich collectors rather than unemployed or low income with 20 year old cars.

A tax on the poor is what it would amount to if anyone did it in the 2030’s - I think both sides have got the message the voters don’t accept that sort of thing.


----------



## Value Collector (5 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> LOL
> 
> i could beat them  in the 1970's  on a bicycle  ( standing start and across an intersection , big or small ) ( and overtake them on selected stretches  sometime road camber counts )
> but there was no outbreak in racing bike purchases  in the next 10 years
> ...



Check out this video from  the 11.30 mark, the first 11.30 are all about super charging Ferraris and general petrol head talk, but then at the 11.30 mark both guys admit they now own Tesla's and love them, to hear a guy that has owned countless Ferraris and other super cars describe Teslas as a "happiness machine" and the best cars they have owned shows that they will appeal to the petrol heads.


----------



## divs4ever (5 December 2021)

of course the poor  will be taxed ( extra ) , the super-rich pay  donations to the political parties  and lobby groups ( AND they can afford to pay for the best accounting expertise )

 i am also starting to wonder whether Australian election results are true and untainted ( after it is now obvious US elections  have been tainted for at least 20 years )

 unless the public starts a massive move into minority/independent players  the two-party paradigm will ensure  the masses  will only get promises  ( yet to be delivered )


----------



## divs4ever (5 December 2021)

no point selling me on vehicles  , with the meds i am on   i joke with the GP one day i will be allowed to have a wheel chair 

 BTW   , i still have a racing bicycle  , well and truly out-of-date , but still a formidable piece of tech  ( but not as  good as the previous one in sheer performance )


----------



## JohnDe (5 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Post a link of a new 2021 MX-5 convertible, with pricing. It was you that mentioned the car for under $30,000.




Has qldfrog been banned? Posts are gone and I can't find his user name.

*qldfrog -* 
_"A long rant after following the previous exchanges
$
Tell me when i can spent less than 30 k and i can get an ev matching the pleasure driving of my wife mx5 convertible,or when i can get a ute to drive in my paddocks, cross our creeks drag a 2.5t delivery machine from a dip,pull a trailer load of gravel that the tradie hilux could not pull up the steep driveway in my place.
Current value of that ute on redbook below $10k, 200k km on clock so can easily do another 10y .8l diesel or colza oil per 100km..i am sure where the money get its best value.
As an engineer and quite tech progress minded, i like EVs. For the concept. Charge on home solar, takeoff speed ,ease of maintenance,easy integration for autonomous driving and sever us from oil consumption and related wars
But at this stage,if using lithium batteries, they are city and highway cars so more comparable to the mini cars at 20k, cost far far too much to be a decent alternative to the masses and ate not green in any way if recharged on the grid.
It is a wet greenwash dream of the same crowds who would have bought Mercs and beemers decades ago.
Nice little woke toys for an inner city crowds who can not hold its joy of putting the commoners back in public transports,living in housing commissions with a shared garden and fresh coat of paint to become social sustainable housing, while they cruise the now empty city highways in their EVs.
Part and integral component of the Reset.but ultimately even Stalin henchmen ended hanging or shot...

You can like the technology but never forget the narrative,why and the impacts..look at what social media became..
EVs stlll need subsidies and now mandatory shutting of ICE to be produced after decades of recent developments
that says it all.
Tesla is soon going to be able to make 1million car a year.
While 73 millions were built this year .....
So more suppressing and mandatory "choices" ahead. We will indeed see more EVs as we as peons of the west will have no choice.
like Covid jabs..your choice as long as you do not want to work. live.😊
In Europe, it works with ICE bans in areas, obviously taxes and now laws.
I know that history has always found that government mandated choices mostly end up badly.
Be happy in your self driving EVUber freeing you to watch funny YouTube cat videos or hate posting against these bastards still owning lands and houses,or wearing clothes,eating meat or fleeing tracking

In short, i think looking at EVs on a pure technical value is missing the point.
I like computer technology,worked on AI tracking. Face recognition, gait tracking,etc..amazing powerful technology well past what most people even imagine possible.. but the use of it, the what and why..ohh the nightmare
I retired..EVs are the same.make no mistake. A mean to an end."_


----------



## yuiop!!io (5 December 2021)

assign me the job


----------



## divs4ever (5 December 2021)

might be  in 'the sin bin'  on this topic  but have no idea  

 cheers


----------



## Country Lad (5 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Has qldfrog been banned? Posts are gone and I can't find his user name.





JohnDe said:


> You are probably not searching correctly. qldfrog is alive and well enjoying all the rain and water and splashing around in the ponds. The post you are looking for is here


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (5 December 2021)

It surprises me not @Country Lad and @JohnDe that @qldfrog is difficult to find atm.

He was getting quite distressed in some of the vaccinate/isolate vs libertarian debates some time ago and is probably just having a break. 

He is a prolific poster with good knowledge and logical argument.

gg


----------



## Sean K (5 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Political suicide until such time as the only people still using them are rich collectors rather than unemployed or low income with 20 year old cars.
> 
> A tax on the poor is what it would amount to if anyone did it in the 2030’s - I think both sides have got the message the voters don’t accept that sort of thing.




I don’t doubt a Labor- Green government with would implement this type of tax.


----------



## Sean K (5 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Has qldfrog been banned? Posts are gone and I can't find his user name.




Nothing from the Mod side, will check with JB.


----------



## moXJO (6 December 2021)

@Joe Blow 
Find the frog


----------



## qldfrog (6 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> @Joe Blow
> Find the frog



I am here, but see no point raising facts so just out.
I could discuss/argue  with a kid/younger person, but someone in his 50es raising the wog and green card and all the usual ABC style **** with me against twisted arguments i did not even write.no point;
Life is too short
Still follow the technical advances/prices post etc;
I am not a believer in lithium batteries due to metal scarity, not trusting h2 directly as too leaky but who knows..h2 fuel cells, 
or better ammonia (fuel cells or ICE) with green hydrogen..perfect..current batteries are a transition, technically not suited to mass production on the world stage and definitively not sorting the environment issues.
Great for some gold chain wearing  Ferrari riders converting to weed smoking baggy yogis driving tesla , the woke crews and as well convertion of old models for the fun...
Thinking myself about converting an old quad or farm buggy when I have time.
.ok I push a bit (a lot) but I am a wog, so have to go the extra mile


----------



## moXJO (6 December 2021)

While I will personally be buying an ev and most likely multiple evs. I can see they are a bit of an elitist wankfest at the moment. 

Poor routinely buy cars for $600 - $1000. Unless we see huge battery changes that won't happen with evs.

Petrol heads (and I don't mean the rich wankerss buying Ferraris) tend to like to work on their cars. I'll do maintenance on mine. Literally will get fried if you play around with electric. I understand the upgrades that you can do, but hardly satisfying. Also understand electric won't need as much servicing. 

These things will be great for me because I have money. Not so great for everyone else at the early stages.

And I could rattle off a list of reasons why. Especially with poorer, large families. I've been dirt poor and these things would be a pipe dream.

Lithium batteries are never going to cut it in the long run for mass adoption. These things are outright dangerous when damaged or faulty.


----------



## moXJO (6 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> .ok I push a bit (a lot) but I am a wog, so have to go the extra mile



Hey I was a ngger back in the 80s. So you have to stand behind me on the 'minority scale'. Actually you wogs got classed as white oppressors now
Way to miss out.


----------



## qldfrog (6 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Hey I was a ngger back in the 80s. So you have to stand behind me on the 'minority scale'. Actually you wogs got classed as white oppressors now
> Way to miss out.



I know ..what a priviledge guyi was, landing white male with my backpack,and with no welfare..just show isn't it .😊100% agreement with your previous post


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

LOL i was raised on the city fringe , people came in two genders  ,a whole lot of colours , but we were nearly all poor  there were a couple of families that were there early  ( land-holders before the city surrounded them  but they were the tiny minority )

 our area seemed more interested in paying  the bills and a half-filled stomach


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

time will tell  but i see a decreased pressure to own a personal vehicle at all ( especially if somebody squashes street crime  , since the world  seems to have gone soft and scared )

 maybe urban authorities will even get public transport up to scratch  ( and reduce the need for private transport even further )


----------



## qldfrog (6 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> time will tell  but i see a decreased pressure to own a personal vehicle at all ( especially if somebody squashes street crime  , since the world  seems to have gone soft and scared )
> 
> maybe urban authorities will even get public transport up to scratch  ( and reduce the need for private transport even further )



Yes in cities, the trouble is the reset has no place for country people.
Put people in rabbit hutches and housing estates, living virtual lives. And just food production areas outside mega cities with a few national park nature reserves outside..
No private cars for the commoners
remember Aldous Huxley's Brave New World (1932)
No individual transport or individuals..


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

there will be a push towards  robot farms ( highly automated )  and probable population extinction  ( but i should be gone first )


----------



## JohnDe (6 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> While I will personally be buying an ev and most likely multiple evs. I can see they are a bit of an elitist wankfest at the moment.
> 
> Poor routinely buy cars for $600 - $1000. Unless we see huge battery changes that won't happen with evs.
> 
> ...




Current EV production and pricing is about where ICE vehicles were in the early 1900's; only high wage earners could afford a new one. Until Henry Ford came along with the Model T.

Tesla is attempting the same feat that the Model T Ford did; bring the cost down for the masses. The Tesla M3 was introduced as an affordable mid-luxury model. There have been a couple of price drops by Tesla over the past couple of years, and next year there will be a smaller budget model.

I am a member of a couple of Tesla Facebook sites, most of the owners in those groups are average middle income earners.

The cost of purchase is on the higher side compared to your Camry's and Mazda's, and on par or lower than a comparable BMW 3 series or Mercedes C series.

Add the savings of not having to replace engine oil and filters, spark plugs and belts, brake pads and disc rotors, the savings continue.

If you like to do your own maintenance, that is still possible and safe. There will be no maintenance required on the electrical system, other than the conventional lead acid 12V battery (soon to be replaced with a Lithium), so no risk of electrocution. 
You will be able to change your own Cabin filter and brake fluid and windscreen washer fluid. That's all there is to maintain.

As for battery fires, well that is always a possibility, just like a petrol fire. though it is very rare. I'd be more concerned about hybrids, which use fuel and lithium.

_"Every year, car fires cause over a billion dollars of property damage losses and kill hundreds of people, with collisions causing the majority of fatal vehicle fires. Hybrid vehicles have the most vehicle fires per 100K vehicle sales, followed by gas vehicles. *Despite the recent concern about electric vehicle fires, they have the fewest fires per 100K vehicle sales* and had only two model recalls for fire risks in the past year."_









						Gas vs. Electric Car Fires [2022 Findings] | AutoinsuranceEZ.com
					

Auto fires result in hundreds of fatalities every year and millions of car recalls. Click here to see hybrid, gas, and electric car fire statistics.




					www.autoinsuranceez.com


----------



## Value Collector (6 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> While I will personally be buying an ev and most likely multiple evs. I can see they are a bit of an elitist wankfest at the moment.
> 
> Poor routinely buy cars for $600 - $1000. Unless we see huge battery changes that won't



That’s what my dad used to say in the 80’s about those new flashy cars that burned unleaded, and had air conditioning, electric windows and FM radios,… but now that’s what everyone drives, Dad used even tell me that these unleaded cars wouldn’t last because their fuel didn’t lubricate the engine as well as the leases fuels, that turned out to be false, and who would really want to go back to leaded fuels now? Not me, petrol will be looked at the same way in 15 years.

Ev’s will filter down into the low priced catergory of the used car market too and people on lower incomes will be able to buy them, even if the have to spend an extra $1000 they will quickly save that in fuel costs and maintenance, low income earners will be better off with second hand ev than a second hand petrol car.


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2021)

The price of midsize ICE vehicles is being raised by the manufacturer's, this will make the decision on whether to go EV, or ICE a more thoughtful decision as the price difference reduces.
I can't see why a city suburban dweller would buy an ICE engine, unless it was a power and distance requirement eg a brickie or tradie who needs the towing and weight carrying capacity.
I think this is the stumbling block in Australia, the big sellers here are the dual cab dual purpose machine, I think the EV manufacturer's have to get it right, before they go to market.
4x4 utes, do a lot of heavy work and ice powered ones are very well catered to, with aftermarket suspension, long range tanks etc.
Going bush with the family in an EV, ATM would be a bit of a jump into the unknown, the way that EV,s are focusing on city based commuter style vehicle's is the best way to go at this point IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (6 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The price of midsize ICE vehicles is being raised by the manufacturer's, this will make the decision on whether to go EV, or ICE a more thoughtful decision as the price difference reduces.
> I can't see why a city suburban dweller would buy an ICE engine, unless it was a power and distance requirement eg a brickie or tradie who needs the towing and weight carrying capacity.
> I think this is the stumbling block in Australia, the big sellers here are the dual cab dual purpose machine, I think the EV manufacturer's have to get it right, before they go to market.
> 4x4 utes, do a lot of heavy work and ice powered ones are very well catered to, with aftermarket suspension, long range tanks etc.
> Going bush with the family in an EV, ATM would be a bit of a jump into the unknown, the way that EV,s are focusing on city based commuter style vehicle's is the best way to go at this point IMO.



All the different versions will come along in time.


----------



## JohnDe (6 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> might be  in 'the sin bin'  on this topic  but have no idea
> 
> cheers




I've been informed that he has me on his 'ignore list'. So I can't see any of his posts, or answer any of his comments that he is directing towards me.

all because I picked him up about misinforming people about the pricing of an 2021 MX-5 convertible (under $30,000 he reckons) that he mentioned when reasoning the affordability of an EV.


----------



## Value Collector (6 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I've been informed that he has me on his 'ignore list'. So I can't see any of his posts, or answer any of his comments that he is directing towards me.
> 
> all because I picked him up about misinforming people about the pricing of an 2021 MX-5 convertible (under $30,000 he reckons) that he mentioned when reasoning the affordability of an EV.



Welcome to the club, if you disagree with Frog on EVs for to long you get put on ignore.


----------



## JohnDe (6 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> *Find me a 2021 Mazda MX-5 convertible for $30,000*, I'll buy two.
> 
> 
> Yes, you are missing the point on EV's, it is not just about the "pure technical value", it is also about the joy of driving, of not dropping into the petrol station, the feeling of driving a vehicle that uses regenerative braking to re-charge and not having to waste energy through a braking system. Until you drive one you are just hypothesising.
> ...




*qldfrog*, my apologies to you if you take offense to me answering your comments with facts.

However, I do find it poor form that you think it is ok to stop me seeing your comments while you continue to remark about my comments. Giving me no right of reply.

A freind has forwarded me your present comments, but I will make no further response unless you allow me to see your comments.

*qldfrog* *-* 
_"That's what i call woke:
Reading what you want.and running with your narrative.
where did you read new?
cause i did not write it anywhere
I later gave you 36k as current price..new but you run with that wrong idea..typical, why argue with facts when you are rightful..and as you believe you are , obviously, right no stop...just surprise you are not younger
So , for facts, we
bought a 2y old mx5 below 30k, probably 5y ago? .latest shape, etc.
New? from 36k..google this morning.
Lowest EV 40k+ xiththe nice MGB
Drive the MGB or the mx5 roof off in noosa hinterland  and compare...
Anyway, no point, noted the offended woke /wog reference,but targetting a migrant, who was installing solar pv 20y ago and created a 400 acres nature refuge from scratch, really?"_

*qldfrog -*
_"I am here, but see no point raising facts so just out.
I could discuss/argue with a kid/younger person, but someone in his 50es raising the wog and green card and all the usual ABC style **** with me against twisted arguments i did not even write.no point;
Life is too short
Still follow the technical advances/prices post etc;
I am not a believer in lithium batteries due to metal scarity, not trusting h2 directly as too leaky but who knows..h2 fuel cells,
or better ammonia (fuel cells or ICE) with green hydrogen..perfect..current batteries are a transition, technically not suited to mass production on the world stage and definitively not sorting the environment issues.
Great for some gold chain wearing Ferrari riders converting to weed smoking baggy yogis driving tesla , the woke crews and as well convertion of old models for the fun...
Thinking myself about converting an old quad or farm buggy when I have time.
.ok I push a bit (a lot) but I am a wog, so have to go the extra mile 
Real ecology is not woke, but it requires effort and has no bragging rights.sorry..
And do far EV is not green.
Bring green h2 and h2 fuel cells, that could do it..and really looking forward genuinely for that
But not yet
Over from me.have a nice week end"_





			https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/?q=(And.(C.Make.Mazda._.Model.MX-5.)_.BodyStyle.Convertible._.Year.range(2020..2021).)


----------



## Jeda (6 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> *qldfrog*, my apologies to you if you take offense to me answering your comments with facts.
> 
> However, I do find it poor form that you think it is ok to stop me seeing your comments while you continue to remark about my comments. Giving me no right of reply.
> 
> ...




Very nice looking model and I like the idea of the classic rear drive set up. Shame that my 55 year old knees find it a chore getting in and out of such low sports cars. If I had the money I'd buy one just to keep, maybe drive on a nice day once every few months, through the mountains and back home again. Once in and once out, that'll do hahaha


----------



## Jeda (6 December 2021)

After hearing reports that new car sales are down "Official new-car sales figures for November 2021, *down 15.3 per cent *compared to the same month last year (which was still in the grip of the COVID pandemic) and the *weakest November result in 13 years, since 2008*." 

I found this article very interesting - 

*Norway is again showing that the all-electric car future is closer than people think*, as November car sales in the country see internal combustion engine car sales crumble.

As many markets are introducing plans to “ban” gas-powered cars by 2030, 2035, and even later, Norway is aiming for each new car on the road to be all-electric by 2025, and it’s on pace to achieve that early.

The results this year have been nothing short of stunning, with the November numbers released today being no exception.

Norway is reporting 73.8% of sales last month coming from all-electric vehicles, and the number goes up to 94.9% when adding all vehicles with batteries

Tesla is leading sales with both the best-selling and second best-selling vehicles in the market last month:


Tesla Model Y: 1,013 units
Tesla Model 3: 771 units
Volkswagen ID.4: 725 units
Audi Q4 e-tron: 661 units
Nissan Leaf: 655 units
Tesla is often a difference maker in the market because its volume comes by boat late in the quarter. Therefore, the month of December is expected to show even more EV sales in Norway with a larger Model 3 and Model Y shipment.

While other markets are more tentative in making the same market correction and are instead rolling out EV incentives that are clunkier but easier to accept politically, electric vehicles are closing the gap in terms of the value proposition.

When it does fully close that gap in virtually all segments, which I see happening in the next four years, the exact same thing that’s happening in Norway right now will be happening in most other markets.

The automakers who believe that will not happen until 2030 or even 2035 are going to have to readjust in record time or go bankrupt.









						Norway again shows the all-electric car future is closer than people think
					

Norway is again showing that the all-electric car future is closer than people think, as November car sales in the country see internal combustion engine car sales crumble. The Scandinavian country has been the leading market for electric vehicles in term of adoption per capita. As many markets...




					electrek.co


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> That’s what my dad used to say in the 80’s about those new flashy cars that burned unleaded, and had air conditioning, electric windows and FM radios,… but now that’s what everyone drives, Dad used even tell me that these unleaded cars wouldn’t last because their fuel didn’t lubricate the engine as well as the leases fuels, that turned out to be false,



This subject has always seemed to prompt conservatism.

There was a fuss about unleaded petrol yes. It was as though the people arguing didn't realise that 91 unleaded when it went on sale was not much different from Super anyway, it just didn't have the tetraethyllead added and was dyed purple instead of red. Had they known that they'd probably have said a lot less about it.

Those who complained then often switched to buying 95 and later 98 when they became available. Thing is, they actually do have some of the issues they were complaining about....   

Ethanol's another one. Done properly it won't wreck your engine indeed it'll do a pretty good job of cleaning it. Emphasis there on "if done properly" which means don't use it in anything with incompatible materials and/or that won't run a correct air/fuel ratio with it. 

Now I see similar arguments, referring to society as a whole not specifically on this forum, regarding EV's. Some are factually based, pointing out that not everyone can charge at home and that not everyone has a city as either their origin or destination such that public chargers need to be widespread, others are just clinging to petrol basically.


----------



## Value Collector (6 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> *qldfrog*, my apologies to you if you take offense to me answering your comments with facts.
> 
> However, I do find it poor form that you think it is ok to stop me seeing your comments while you continue to remark about my comments. Giving me no right of reply.
> 
> ...



It’s probably best for you to click ignore on him too, that way he is blocked from seeing your posts, other wise he can click “show ignored posts” and see your post and then comment on them without you seeing his reply.


----------



## JohnDe (6 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> It’s probably best for you to click ignore on him too, that way he is blocked from seeing your posts, other wise he can click “show ignored posts” and see your post and then comment on them without you seeing his reply.




Good idea 👍🏻


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Welcome to the club, if you disagree with Frog on EVs for to long you get put on ignore.



 OH !   i have resisted using  'ignore ' on any forum it is available on  , sometimes even my harshest critics have a priceless idea 

 but it is there to be used  , by those who wish to use it


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## sptrawler (6 December 2021)

I'm not a big fan of using Norway as an example as to what others can achieve with EV,s, Norway has as specific topography and geographical location, that enables it to be 100% renewables.
Add to that the population and small road and grid network and really it is a bit of a cherry pick, to say other countries are failing for not achieving similar outcomes, it is much better if apples are compared with apples.
One thing Australia could do to take a faster environmental route, would be to introduce tax levels similar to other countries, like for example Norway's 25% gst.


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> This subject has always seemed to prompt conservatism.
> 
> There was a fuss about unleaded petrol yes. It was as though the people arguing didn't realise that 91 unleaded when it went on sale was not much different from Super anyway, it just didn't have the tetraethyllead added and was dyed purple instead of red. Had they known that they'd probably have said a lot less about it.
> 
> ...



 my main concern on ethanol  is it is using resources  better used as human and animal food  ( although saying that in the past  i have consumed more than my share of various spirits )

 however there was ( may still be ) technology   for making ethanol ( and bio-diesel ) from algae   so my concern might be able to be bypassed  ( ethanol + a biomass for fertilizer for land crops/stock-food )


----------



## sptrawler (6 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> my main concern on ethanol  is it is using resources  better used as human and animal food  ( although saying that in the past  i have consumed more than my share of various spirits )
> 
> however there was ( may still be ) technology   for making ethanol ( and bio-diesel ) from algae   so my concern might be able to be bypassed  ( ethanol + a biomass for fertilizer for land crops/stock-food )



It isn,t a black and white scenario though, not all biomass and crops are turned into food, a lot is ruined by weather events etc.
Also it isn't as though you would be running the generators 24/7 365 days a year, I imagine areas that are poorly serviced by grid supplies could use them. Of course they wouldn't be suitable everywhere, same as gas hydro etc isn't suitable everywhere, but there will be areas that have regular excess biomass, that goes to waste.
Then areas in outback Queensland that have a solar /wind farm supplying the grid, could have a skid mount gas turbine or maybe a few large diesels as standby power, these would be supplied fuel from a fuel storage tank, if in that area bio diesel is a viable supply it would make sense to use it.
If however there was alternatives they should be looked at, nothing should be cast aside without investigation, if that is done it just makes the transition harder and less likely to succede IMO.


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not a big fan of using Norway as an example as to what others can achieve with EV,s, Norway has as specific topography and geographical location, that enables it to be 100% renewables.
> Add to that the population and small road and grid network and really it is a bit of a cherry pick, to say other countries are failing for not achieving similar outcomes, it is much better if apples are compared with apples.
> One thing Australia could do to take a faster environmental route, would be to introduce tax levels similar to other countries, like for example Norway's 25% gst.




  sorry the Oz government  showed how it can mess up a tax system  and compound the problem by increments

  a hi-speed rail ( electric would be nice ) centred  in Canberra    branches to Sydney , Melbourne and Adelaide ( with other  connections later   Adelaide to Perth and Darwin  , Sydney  north to Brisbane and Townsville/Cairns ) take the pressure off the airports  , and major highways  and hopefully add safety to the mix 

 but of course we are currently in the business of offending China  so we will probably take a cost hit  by consulting  the Japanese  skill-set 

 surely long distance rail then rent a vehicle as needed would make sense to some


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> It isn,t a black and white scenario though, not all biomass and crops are turned into food, a lot is ruined by weather events etc.
> Also it isn't as though you would be running the generators 24/7 365 days a year, I imagine areas that are poorly serviced by grid supplies could use them. Of course they wouldn't be suitable everywhere, same as gas hydro etc isn't suitable everywhere, but there will be areas that have regular excess biomass, that goes to waste.
> Then areas in outback Queensland that have a solar /wind farm supplying the grid, could have a skid mount gas turbine or maybe a few large diesels as standby power, these would be supplied fuel from a fuel storage tank, if in that area bio diesel is a viable supply it would make sense to use it.
> If however there was alternatives they should be looked at, nothing should be cast aside without investigation, if that is done it just makes the transition harder and less likely to succede IMO.



 i am in favour of using the best tech available for that job  , and this is where i feel business should be incentivized not penalized  to pick the best solution ( low cost , low pollution, low waste , etc etc )  a well  run business  can define their needs  and find the best solution  efficiently 

 wading through 30 plus pages of legislation ( probably already obsolete ) doesn't help the end result


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> my main concern on ethanol is it is using resources better used as human and animal food



Agreed there are definite limits to it. Turning waste into ethanol is sensible, it saves oil and puts the material to good use, but growing crops for that purpose specifically is highly dubious.

My point however is that done properly it won't wreck your engine but many seem to have a view that they'd rather walk than put E10 in their car. As far as they're concerned it's the devils work when in truth there's no such problem if it's done properly.

There's far too much of a religious / emotional / non-scientific approach to the entire energy issue in my view (referring to society as a whole there, especially politics).


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

oh yes i was well aware  a carefully tuned engine can run on ethanol ( some US car racing   already proves that )

 now i maybe wrong  but i thought the earliest ICEs  ran on bio-diesel or ethanol  before the oil industry   swayed the fuel preference ( especially with the diesel engine )


----------



## JohnDe (6 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not a big fan of using Norway as an example as to what others can achieve with EV,s, Norway has as specific topography and geographical location, that enables it to be 100% renewables.
> Add to that the population and small road and grid network and really it is a bit of a cherry pick, to say other countries are failing for not achieving similar outcomes, it is much better if apples are compared with apples.
> One thing Australia could do to take a faster environmental route, would be to introduce tax levels similar to other countries, like for example Norway's 25% gst.




we all need a target to aim for, Norway is the current leader. We don’t have to copy them, and we shouldn’t, but we can take the best examples that fit our country.

Just read an interesting article, change is happening fast, faster than most can accept or understood, including me.


ELECTRIC VEHICLES SPECIAL REPORT

“I am charging into this brave new EV world and you should too​
If you’d told me 20 years ago that I would be driving a car that could run on pure sunlight alone I would have laughed in your maniacal direction and asked you whether this vehicle would also fly and have some kind of magical screen on board that could give me access to All the Music in the World at the swipe of my finger, or via my voice command.”






						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au


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## moXJO (6 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> *qldfrog*, my apologies to you if you take offense to me answering your comments with facts.
> 
> However, I do find it poor form that you think it is ok to stop me seeing your comments while you continue to remark about my comments. Giving me no right of reply.
> 
> ...



He didn't say a new mx5 did he?
I'm seeing 2016 models for $30k range
He also said 5 years ago on a 2 year older model.


----------



## moXJO (6 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> That’s what my dad used to say in the 80’s about those new flashy cars that burned unleaded, and had air conditioning, electric windows and FM radios,… but now that’s what everyone drives, Dad used even tell me that these unleaded cars wouldn’t last because their fuel didn’t lubricate the engine as well as the leases fuels, that turned out to be false, and who would really want to go back to leaded fuels now? Not me, petrol will be looked at the same way in 15 years.
> 
> Ev’s will filter down into the low priced catergory of the used car market too and people on lower incomes will be able to buy them, even if the have to spend an extra $1000 they will quickly save that in fuel costs and maintenance, low income earners will be better off with second hand ev than a second hand petrol car.



My thoughts are that batteries will have to come down to virtually nothing for it to even come close. The batteries are bloody expensive. But agree that change will happen. I'm not denying it. Just that many will suffer the transition.


----------



## moXJO (6 December 2021)

Here's my crystal ball strategy:
Labor wins the election.
Rivian introduced to Australia 2023.
Labor puts out some kind of subsidies for EVs.
Moxjo buys 3 Evs.

Or something like that. I think Labor will take this election possible coalition with the greens. Bound to be something.


----------



## qldfrog (6 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not a big fan of using Norway as an example as to what others can achieve with EV,s, Norway has as specific topography and geographical location, that enables it to be 100% renewables.
> Add to that the population and small road and grid network and really it is a bit of a cherry pick, to say other countries are failing for not achieving similar outcomes, it is much better if apples are compared with apples.
> One thing Australia could do to take a faster environmental route, would be to introduce tax levels similar to other countries, like for example Norway's 25% gst.



About that: one of the reason Norway can afford EVs:
Tesla M3 range plus cost there:  400 000kr;
but  average gross earnings in Norway is 48,750 NOK per month or *585,000 NOK per year*.
3rd most expensive place on earth to live..

in Australia cheapest M3 $59.900  and based on ATO:  8 June 2021 — The _average salary_ in _Australia_ is now just over $60,000
so an average worker in australia can get nearly exactly one M3 a year..but still has to pay tax ..these are gross figures
whereas the average Norway worker can get one and a half M3;
I am sure Tesla would be far more popular if we could buy one new M3 here for 40k AUD...
not yet there


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> we all need a target to aim for, Norway is the current leader. We don’t have to copy them, and we shouldn’t, but we can take the best examples that fit our country.
> 
> Just read an interesting article, change is happening fast, faster than most can accept or understood, including me.
> 
> ...



 i disagree  , we could have been driving compact vehicles  using lead acid batteries  for the last 50 years  , in fact in the '80s  i worked  in two different companies  that used electric forklifts .. pallet transporters as well   quite effectively 

 we had plenty of time to improve that technology and DIDN'T

 those EVs had limitations sure  , but  so did the gas and petrol forklifts ( in certain areas )

 BTW we have had solar vehicle endurance races for years too  , but the research was left on the drawing board ( and 'race-track' ) rather than adapted and improved 

 what about solar + battery paint  to the interior surface of the roof and boot  to  run the non-essential electronics on you EV 

we could have done and still CAN do much better 

 we had working EVs since the 1900's  this is NOT new  just previously abandoned


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Here's my crystal ball strategy:
> Labor wins the election.
> Rivian introduced to Australia 2023.
> Labor puts out some kind of subsidies for EVs.
> ...



 GEE  and i am called a doom merchant  do you do gigs at Halloween  ??


----------



## rederob (6 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not a big fan of using Norway as an example as to what others can achieve with EV,s, Norway has as specific topography and geographical location, that enables it to be 100% renewables.
> Add to that the population and small road and grid network and really it is a bit of a cherry pick, to say other countries are failing for not achieving similar outcomes, it is much better if apples are compared with apples.
> One thing Australia could do to take a faster environmental route, would be to introduce tax levels similar to other countries, like for example Norway's 25% gst.



I think you need to actually understand what Norway did to incentivise ZEVs as your other points are barely relevant.
For example, Norway's topography certainly does not lend itself to EVs and more than it does to ICE vehicles, and BEVs do not respond well to very cold climates, so its location is not beneficial.  
And if you want to use an argument based on country size and population you could choose Denmark, Belgium Switzerland and another 20 countries I could name.
Here's what any government could borrow from:


The key to Norway's success beyond the above was the use of progressive taxation arrangements that penalised emissions as distinct from hiking up taxes.


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> My thoughts are that batteries will have to come down to virtually nothing for it to even come close. The batteries are bloody expensive. But agree that change will happen. I'm not denying it. Just that many will suffer the transition.



 it is also possible  battery technology options  will change  

 would you buy an EV with a 300km range  , but you drive less than 100 km a week  ( almost every week of the year )

 i see some makers  making a limited range ( much cheaper  ) model  for the masses  , sure they might not be popular outside the city , but guess where a lot of pollution is  ( hint it isn't on the Atherton Tableland )


----------



## moXJO (6 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> GEE  and i am called a doom merchant  do you do gigs at Halloween  ??



I can just feel a 3 years of suffering coming on.


----------



## Value Collector (6 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> My thoughts are that batteries will have to come down to virtually nothing for it to even come close. The batteries are bloody expensive. But agree that change will happen. I'm not denying it. Just that many will suffer the transition.



That’s a bit like people that say installing solar panels are expensive because they see an upfront cost of $6000, but they don’t do the math of how much $500 every 3 months on their regular bill adds up to after 10 years.

a battery might cost about $15,000 but over the life of the car you can have $50,000 in fuel savings, and vastly reduced maintenance costs.

I think people that choose options that are cheaper upfront are the ones that suffer, not those that install solar for example.


----------



## divs4ever (6 December 2021)

rederob said:


> I think you need to actually understand what Norway did to incentivise ZEVs as your other points are barely relevant.
> For example, Norway's topography certainly does not lend itself to EVs and more than it does to ICE vehicles, and BEVs do not respond well to very cold climates, so its location is not beneficial.
> And if you want to use an argument based on country size and population you could choose Denmark, Belgium Switzerland and another 20 countries I could name.
> Here's what any government could borrow from:
> ...



 that is all nice for Norway  with that nice oil income  , but Australia is heavily addicted to all that tax revenue that would be shaved  and folks like TCL would have a fit if 20% of their toll income vanished for say 5 years 

 we might need a complete new government ( including bureaucrats ) before  we could get close to adopting the best Norwegian  ideas


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i disagree  , we could have been driving compact vehicles  using lead acid batteries  for the last 50 years  , in fact in the '80s  i worked  in two different companies  that used electric forklifts .. pallet transporters as well   quite effectively
> 
> we had plenty of time to improve that technology and DIDN'T
> 
> ...



There isn’t enough surface area on a car to capture a usable amount of solar to make it worthwhile, especially because people prefer to park their car in the shade.

you are better off putting solar panels on the roof of your house, rather than the roof of your car.


----------



## JohnDe (7 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> He didn't say a new mx5 did he?
> I'm seeing 2016 models for $30k range
> He also said 5 years ago on a 2 year older model.



 He was making a point that EV’s can’t compare to an ICE vehicle at a price point that is not applicable.

At this current time, the resale value of an ICE car & an EV is very subjective. The MX-5 is a sports car, an EV near enough to compete would be a Tesla, however the resale value is close to new pricing. So I took his example as a comparison between new vehicles.

A new MX-5 convertible is $50G, a base model Tesla M3 is rear wheel drive & has very decent handling and acceleration plus a glass roof, and the pricing is not too far off of a MX-5.


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> it is also possible  battery technology options  will change
> 
> would you buy an EV with a 300km range  , but you drive less than 100 km a week  ( almost every week of the year )
> 
> i see some makers  making a limited range ( much cheaper  ) model  for the masses  , sure they might not be popular outside the city , but guess where a lot of pollution is  ( hint it isn't on the Atherton Tableland )



A 300km range EV would suit almost everyone, think about it if you start each day with 300km of range because you charge each night, there wouldn’t be that often you would need to charge using public chargers.

Then even on the day you do need more than 300km, you just need to charge at a public charge enough to get you home, which might only take as little as 3 mins of charging.

And on road trips stopping for 15 mins would add an extra 200km of range, which would mean you travel 500km with just one 15 min charging/ bathroom break, that’s well within most peoples routine stops anyway and you didn’t have to make a stop before the road to top up, another 15 mins gets you to 700km, which most petrol cars would be fueling up twice to get that far (eg once at the start of the road trip and once before the 700km mark some where)


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

undoubtedly we  will suffer  ( unless someone totally unexpected  gets in  , and no guarantees there either )

 Albo is Albo  , a bit like Bernie Sanders  has had the same core policies for decades (  but not exactly the same policies as Bernie ) and  they are unpopular with roughly 50% of the people ( which is why the ALP took so long to pick him as leader )

 one problem is various governments ( over the decades ) have made commitments they cannot deliver on ( and might never have intended to deliver on ) we have made enemies where we could have had  mutually beneficial trading partners 

 all that bad karma usually hits you when you are weakened 

 we have enough bright people to help with the pollution issue  , but we use nepotism  instead of the merit-system 

 this nation COULD be self-sufficient if it wanted to be  , but we have way more bureaucrats than inventors and engineers ( oh WAIT i know where they are ,   working as painters  , taxi-drivers ,  behind the counter at the convenience store , on early retirement   .. etc etc )

 an election result will not fix this


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> A 300km range EV would suit almost everyone, think about it if you start each day with 300km of range because you charge each night, there wouldn’t be that often you would need to charge using public chargers.
> 
> Then even on the day you do need more than 300km, you just need to charge at a public charge enough to get you home, which might only take as little as 3 mins of charging.
> 
> And on road trips stopping for 15 mins would add an extra 200km of range, which would mean you travel 500km with just one 15 min charging/ bathroom break, that’s well within most peoples routine stops anyway and you didn’t have to make a stop before the road to top up, another 15 mins gets you to 700km, which most petrol cars would be fueling up twice to get that far (eg once at the start of the road trip and once before the 700km mark some where)



 i would have gone the other way  and used EVs  as government vehicles for urban employees  ( maybe even as part of the salary package  for low level management ) but plenty of the government fleets are relatively  low kilometre  and urban use )

 i am sure someone like VW  would draw up some sort of  deal even a  mix of  body styles (  sedans ,  light vans and utes )

 that way at the end of the lease the batteries repacked , some reconditioning elsewhere and sold into the second hand market ( much like a retired taxi )

 EVs most workers could afford


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> There isn’t enough surface area on a car to capture a usable amount of solar to make it worthwhile, especially because people prefer to park their car in the shade.
> 
> you are better off putting solar panels on the roof of your house, rather than the roof of your car.



there are solar arrays  on my property  the gotchya is it feeds the excess into the grid  ,  now if the home battery pack regulations  ever become  sensible  , i will reconsider that option 

 the car-roof solar  is not intended to power the car , but lighten the drain on the battery ( and give redundancy  if stranded .. say recharge your phone  and say hazard lighting )


----------



## qldfrog (7 December 2021)

Let's get a cold shower of realityhttps://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Comment/The-hard-reality-behind-China-s-leadership-in-EVs


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> there are solar arrays  on my property  the gotchya is it feeds the excess into the grid  ,  now if the home battery pack regulations  ever become  sensible  , i will reconsider that option
> 
> the car-roof solar  is not intended to power the car , but lighten the drain on the battery ( and give redundancy  if stranded .. say recharge your phone  and say hazard lighting )



It’s better to have that solar panel sitting on your roof, in full sun everyday, feeding into the grid earning you credits that you can use to charge with later, than to have that solar panel sitting on your car that is parked in the garage in the shade, not earning anything.

A well placed, north facing panel only generates about 1.6 kWh per day in perfect conditions.

But your average mid sized car would barely have enough usable space to fit a full panel on it, and it would not be ideal conditions all day, because some times it would be facing the wrong way or in the shade etc, meaning you might only produce less than a quarter of the power a roof top panel would.

So having solar on a car would only generate you maybe enough charge to drive 4 kms per day, and that’s ignoring the fact that having your car parked in the sun would mean your AC has to work harder, perhaps taking away any benefit gained.


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Let's get a cold shower of realityhttps://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Comment/The-hard-reality-behind-China-s-leadership-in-EVs



yes and dominance in rare-earth magnets would have been a real help in that 

 BUT the west had 50 even 100 years to build that EV industry first .. and chose not to  ( add one billion potential employees in China )


----------



## SirRumpole (7 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed there are definite limits to it. Turning waste into ethanol is sensible, it saves oil and puts the material to good use, but growing crops for that purpose specifically is highly dubious.
> 
> My point however is that done properly it won't wreck your engine but many seem to have a view that they'd rather walk than put E10 in their car. As far as they're concerned it's the devils work when in truth there's no such problem if it's done properly.
> 
> There's far too much of a religious / emotional / non-scientific approach to the entire energy issue in my view (referring to society as a whole there, especially politics).




We produce a lot of sugar cane , and if there is a choice between giving people diabetes or producing power with it , my preference is for the latter.

I don't think ethanol powered vehicles are viable long term though, EV's are going to take that market. Maybe we should start to electrify inland rail lines as well to reduce reliance on diesel.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> we all need a target to aim for, Norway is the current leader. We don’t have to copy them, and we shouldn’t, but we can take the best examples that fit our country.
> 
> Just read an interesting article, change is happening fast, faster than most can accept or understood, including me.
> 
> ...



I agree with that, I just wish people would keep the discussion sensible and relevant, rathe r than comparing apples with oranges, if the debate is kept on the issues pertaining to Australias unique circumstances it improves everyones understanding of the pros, coons and issues. I'll keep it short I'm using a phone while  laying on my back in bloody hospital with a broken leg, bloody electric scooters lol.
It is a bit like saying, why cant every country get 100% covid vaccination rates? Gibralta did it very quickly,if they could do why cant all countries lol.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with that, I just wish people would keep the discussion sensible and relevant, rathe r than comparing apples with oranges, if the debate is kept on the issues pertaining to Australias unique circumstances it improves everyones understanding of the pros, coons and issues. I'll keep it short I'm using a phone while  laying on my back in bloody hospital with a broken leg, bloody electric scooters lol.




Hey mate, sorry to hear that. Get better soon. You will be out for Christmas hopefully ?


----------



## qldfrog (7 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with that, I just wish people would keep the discussion sensible and relevant, rathe r than comparing apples with oranges, if the debate is kept on the issues pertaining to Australias unique circumstances it improves everyones understanding of the pros, coons and issues. I'll keep it short I'm using a phone while  laying on my back in bloody hospital with a broken leg, bloody electric scooters lol.
> It is a bit like saying, why cant every country get 100% covid vaccination rates? Gibralta did it very quickly,if they could do why cant all countries lol.



Mr Hipster Trawler??
But I thought with an EV scooter and the jab, we were invincible 
I  hope you recover well.. and hope you will not have to change scooter type!!!
Take care


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Hey mate, sorry to hear that. Get better soon. You will be out for Christmas hopefully ?



Its all good, a couple of plates on the tibea, no weight bearing for 6 weeks, then back on the scooter lol.
It has been a while since I've been in hospital, there is certainly a lot of bio mass, left over after meal times, one thing for sure I'll loose a couple of kilos.lol


----------



## JohnDe (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i disagree  , we could have been driving compact vehicles  using lead acid batteries  for the last 50 years  , in fact in the '80s  i worked  in two different companies  that used electric forklifts .. pallet transporters as well   quite effectively
> 
> we had plenty of time to improve that technology and DIDN'T
> 
> ...




True, though the biggest 'limitation' was the consumer. If the sales aren't there the product will never develop. Governments had no interest in funding a new technology when they were concentrating on keeping jobs growth going and an automotive industry struggling against cheap imports.

Lead acid batteries was a start, good enough for city driving but couldn't compete with Aussies thirst for travel.



*Electric cars are common these days, but back in 1968, they were a revolutionary idea. Meet Roy Doring and his car of the future.*


----------



## qldfrog (7 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Its all good, a couple of plates on the tibea, no weight bearing for 6 weeks, then back on the scooter lol.
> It has been a while since I've been in hospital, there is certainly a lot of bio mass, left over after meal times, one thing for sure I'll loose a couple of kilos.lol



that is the spirit 
Imagine, nothing else to do than jousting on ASF  and killing it with your investments 
Heal well


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> We produce a lot of sugar cane , and if there is a choice between giving people diabetes or producing power with it , my preference is for the latter.
> 
> I don't think ethanol powered vehicles are viable long term though, EV's are going to take that market. Maybe we should start to electrify inland rail lines as well to reduce reliance on diesel.



If you clear the sugar cane field and replace it with solar panels you will produce more energy than you can with one sugar cane crop a year.


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> yes and dominance in rare-earth magnets would have been a real help in that
> 
> BUT the west had 50 even 100 years to build that EV industry first .. and chose not to  ( add one billion potential employees in China )



The auto industry was lead by the USA, who 100 years ago had what seemed like unlimited supply of cheap Oil, and climate change was unknown, so Oil was a good choice for the last 100years, it’s not a great choice for the next 100 though.


----------



## rederob (7 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with that, I just wish people would keep the discussion sensible and relevant, rathe r than comparing apples with oranges, if the debate is kept on the issues pertaining to  it improves everyones understanding of the pros, coons and issues. I'll keep it short I'm using a phone laying on my back in bloody hospital with a broken leg, bloody electric scooters lol.



The problem with your earlier post on Norway is that any government can choose to do what Norway has done, and more still, just like America offering US$12500 incentives for buying an EV made with unionised labour (ie *not *a Tesla!).
In other words, we can turn oranges into apples with the right policies, and even sweeter apples with better incentivisations. 

So many posters see NEV incentivisation as requiring new taxes when, instead, we can transfer the greater tax burden to emissions as an offset.  Either that or get an incoming government to claw back some of the billions of dollars improperly paid to employers under JobKeeper and reallocate it into cash incentives.

I noted an earlier post from @divs4ever about TCL not being happy if toll revenue was to decrease.  Given you can probably count the EVs using any particular toll road on your fingers and toes today I suspect TCL won't be too worried.  On the other hand as EV purchases increase, getting 50% of a toll is better than getting nothing, so as a TCL shareholder myself I don't see the problem.  The other aspect of incentive arrangements is that they can be scaled so that by a specified future date they cease.  That's part of what Norway has done.

As I see it, "Australia's unique circumstances" are equal to a total absence of policies or incentives for vehicles which are inherently safer with the latest technologies and have proven health benefits by reducing pollution.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

I'm sure Australia will incetivise EV's, as they should because as you already know it is essential in the overall scheme of things, to have the BEVs providing grid storage for renewables.
What I don't agree with, is doing it before it is required as the infrastructure is still being rolled out, currently those who want an EV are rich enough to buy an EV and there is enough infrastructure in place to service them.
All the States have committed to rolling out charging infrastructure, over the next two years, from what I read it sounds as though the V2G charging standards were passed in November, so I have no doubt as the infrastructure rolls out so will incentives to increase the uptake.

What I was aluding to with Norway was they have a small population using a small road network and a small grid system which is supplied by fully renewable energy, it is a no brainer for them to have incentives and the installation of charging infrastructure isn't a problem as it doesn't face many logistical problems.
From memory Norway has something like 1800 hydro dams, so the HV transmission system would be incredibly stable.
By the way I didn't see it as a problem, with my earlier post.lol


----------



## SirRumpole (7 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> If you clear the sugar cane field and replace it with solar panels you will produce more energy than you can with one sugar cane crop a year.




Maybe, but you still need to store it and solar cells are still subject to weather and err.. darkness.

Having a store of ethanol that you can feed into gas turbines at a moments notice to stabilise supply when the weather turns bad solves one of the problems of intermittency of renewable energy.

And biofuels are renewable too.


----------



## qldfrog (7 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe, but you still need to store it and solar cells are still subject to weather and err.. darkness.
> 
> Having a store of ethanol that you can feed into gas turbines at a moments notice to stabilise supply when the weather turns bad solves on of the problems of intermittency



Yes, technically not bad, ethanol is usually oil negative in europe, usa but here, with sugar cane and wood mass , from memory it is positive, so more enegrgy from ethanol than from producing it
actually ethanol fuel cells have been created to power laptop...
ideally, h2 could do the trick turning and storing water into h2 during day with solar then fuel cell or burning it during night;
But ethanol would require far less change, you can just run your generator on it in the outback, or farms, etc minor changes
And we need to think about the existing fleet of machinery: bio fuel (vegetable oil), recreating fuel from air  co2 and h2, or ethanol;
there is no point to pretend saving the planet by scrapping existing ICE engines and machinery;It is hardly better to use EV vs ICE, if you actually remove forcibly ICE to replace by brand new..made in china..Vietnam EVs, the end result is catastrophic for the planet
which bring back to point #1, best thing for planet is not EVs H2 etc but population reduction
EVs in australia while bringing more migration?
So reduce population or just eat Soylent Green food **** while living packed in a hutch, with a screen as head and brain


----------



## rederob (7 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> What I was aluding to with Norway was they have a small population using a small road network and a small grid system which is supplied by fully renewable energy, it is a no brainer for them to have incentives and the installation of charging infrastructure isn't a problem as it doesn't face many logistical problems.



Except they did not have to do it.
The Norway experience can be replicated in any western conurbation given that the average Australian driver seldom drives beyond it.
But without the right levers in place it won't happen any time soon.


sptrawler said:


> From memory Norway has something like 1800 hydro dams, so the HV transmission system would be incredibly stable.



Many dams for sure, and the charging station rollout would be relatively cheap as well due to small distances in the charging network.  Not that I think it will happen here but, rather than an HEV network in our non-metro areas, it's possible to instead use solar/wind powered battery charging banks as our servo equivalent.  If we were really clever we could do this for many more-remote country towns and wean them off the grid.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Except they did not have to do it.
> The Norway experience can be replicated in any western conurbation given that the average Australian driver seldom drives beyond it.
> But without the right levers in place it won't happen any time soon.
> 
> Many dams for sure, and the charging station rollout would be relatively cheap as well due to small distances in the charging network.  Not that I think it will happen here but, rather than an HEV network in our non-metro areas, it's possible to instead use solar/wind powered battery charging banks as our servo equivalent.  If we were really clever we could do this for many more-remote country towns and wean them off the grid.



It will happen, it just won't happen quickly, massive area with low population densities and a small tax base.
I hope that a Federal Government ups the rate of GST, the tax system is woefully behind the speed of technological change in society these days and it is struggling to keep Australia's infrastructure in line with societies requirements.
But it is what it is and it may change with a change of government, but I doubt it, all sides of politics in Australia have a 3 year horizon which no longer works.


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Maybe, but you still need to store it and solar cells are still subject to weather and err.. darkness.
> 
> Having a store of ethanol that you can feed into gas turbines at a moments notice to stabilise supply when the weather turns bad solves one of the problems of intermittency of renewable energy.
> 
> And biofuels are renewable too.



You can convert electricity into stored battery power, stored hydrogen, and even into liquid ammonia fuels.

sugar cane requires the sun to grow as well, but solar panels don’t need water or fertiliser, and produce all year, without the threat of crop failure.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> You can convert electricity into stored battery power, stored hydrogen, and even into liquid ammonia fuels.
> 
> sugar cane requires the sun to grow as well, but solar panels don’t need water or fertiliser, and produce all year, without the threat of crop failure.




The whole thing is a mix. I don't care if the turbines are powered by gas, hydrogen , ethanol or anything else, the more options we have the less we need to rely on one, so everything should be in the mix.


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The whole thing is a mix. I don't care if the turbines are powered by gas, hydrogen , ethanol or anything else, the more options we have the less we need to rely on one, so everything should be in the mix.



Agreed, I like biofuels when it’s comes from waste product, but I don’t like the idea of using valuable Land, water and fertiliser to make fuel if there is better ways.


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> True, though the biggest 'limitation' was the consumer. If the sales aren't there the product will never develop. Governments had no interest in funding a new technology when they were concentrating on keeping jobs growth going and an automotive industry struggling against cheap imports.
> 
> Lead acid batteries was a start, good enough for city driving but couldn't compete with Aussies thirst for travel.
> 
> ...





 which is why i think the push to move EVs should have been led by the various levels of government  , not just go to long-winded talk-fests  , but signing the lease agreements   and getting employees  used to the idea ( and hope it spreads  via normal public interaction )

 but, but  there is that part of the population that rarely ever venture outside the home city  ( especially by car ,camper-van/mobile home )

 and we should really be grabbing that segment of the market  , as a good start  , hoping demand and technological improvement will grow that market  , after current EV production does have it's bottlenecks , that still need solutions


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> The whole thing is a mix. I don't care if the turbines are powered by gas, hydrogen , ethanol or anything else, the more options we have the less we need to rely on one, so everything should be in the mix.



That nailed it Rumpy, way too many are focusing on one aspect of a multi faceted problem.
In some cases a solar farm might be better eg where there is a salt problem and nothing grows or an area where agriculture is not its strong point, but in an area where agriculture is its strong point, the loss of the agriculture and its ability to supply food, biofuel and the naturally occurring ability to convert CO2 to oxygen has to be taken into account.
That IMO is what isn't happening at the moment, solar has the stage at the moment, but as you say it has to be weighed up in a careful and holistic manner.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed there are definite limits to it. Turning waste into ethanol is sensible, it saves oil and puts the material to good use, but growing crops for that purpose specifically is highly dubious.
> 
> My point however is that done properly it won't wreck your engine but many seem to have a view that they'd rather walk than put E10 in their car. As far as they're concerned it's the devils work when in truth there's no such problem if it's done properly.
> 
> There's far too much of a religious / emotional / non-scientific approach to the entire energy issue in my view (referring to society as a whole there, especially politics).



Cars need to be setup  for ethanol.
O rings on fuel lines pumps etc , plus the lines them selves need to be ethanol resisant .
O rings and lines made from natural rubber, butyl or Nitrile are highly resistant to ethanol, but both natural rubber and butyl are poorly resistant  to petrol.
Silicon andNeoprene are not so good with ethanol, but unsuitable for petrol.
Nitrile works well with either.
Cast Polyurethane works well with  gasoline, but is bad with with ethanol.
Newer cars are likely to be using  Nitrile, older cars you never can be quite sure until they fail.
Mick


----------



## Jeda (7 December 2021)

Ethonol is a moderatly expensive shrt term replacement. It is more expensive to produce thatn petrol, most engines and fuel systems are designed to use it, meaning that there will be an added cost to retrofit small engine tools and vehicles and generators. 

The best scanrio is to allow the industry to change over during the period that manufacturers and governments have mentioned numerous times - 2035. 

As battery technology and Hydrogen gets cheaper to produce and sell, prodcts such as cars, trucks, generators, chainsaws, etc will also change.

Which ever way you look at it, the combustion engine is going the way of the dinosaur. Though it wont happen overnight like the big meteor strike, this will take 50 years, and we're already into the 20th year.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

With EV's it isn't just a change of mode of transportation, it is completely changing the energy source from an established self contained closed loop system, to a whole new energy source that was never designed to have the extra demand put on it.
But not only that the new energy source is also trying to change where it gets its energy from and this is to happen overnight, well some think that can be done in reality it is a transition which will take some time and will hit some speed bumps, putting in extra speed bumps isn't a good idea IMO.
Do it once do it right IMO, less haste more speed, jumping from one handout to another is fraught with danger, as history has proved over and over.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

The Japanese car makers are starting to band together, to get up to speed in the EV space, the new Mazda 2 and one of the Suzuki range, are rebadged Toyota Yaris hybrids.
I would post a link, but being on meds and on the phone, you could get a link to a site you don't want to see.lol


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

Jeda said:


> Ethonol is a moderatly expensive shrt term replacement. It is more expensive to produce thatn petrol, most engines and fuel systems are designed to use it, meaning that there will be an added cost to retrofit small engine tools and vehicles and generators.
> 
> The best scanrio is to allow the industry to change over during the period that manufacturers and governments have mentioned numerous times - 2035.
> 
> ...



 but you can make ethanol at home  ( especially if outside the cities ) making it drinking quality is the hard bit ( wink )  not everything works well on ethanol fuel either   but stuff like the farm ute  , and the back-up generator  and other ICE applications  

 i think it definitely deserves to stay in the mix of options for Australia ( even if only for remote areas )


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The Japanese car makers are starting to band together, to get up to speed in the EV space, the new Mazda 2 and one of the Suzuki range, are rebadged Toyota Yaris hybrids.
> I would post a link, but being on drugs and on the phone, you could get a link to a site you don't want to see.lol



yes those medications can be challenge  , can't they ??

 get well soon


----------



## moXJO (7 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> That’s a bit like people that say installing solar panels are expensive because they see an upfront cost of $6000, but they don’t do the math of how much $500 every 3 months on their regular bill adds up to after 10 years.
> 
> a battery might cost about $15,000 but over the life of the car you can have $50,000 in fuel savings, and vastly reduced maintenance costs.
> 
> I think people that choose options that are cheaper upfront are the ones that suffer, not those that install solar for example.



The initial problem is cost. I think you forget most people can’t afford it, which was my original point. For you, or me it's cost efficient because we have the luxury of being able to afford it. For many they will be cut out on battery price alone. 

I've had friends that in the last 5 years have picked up 2nd hand cars for $600 and driven around for the next 2 years in that.
I'm saying that the current batteries will make it unaffordable for many.


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> The initial problem is cost. I think you forget most people can’t afford it, which was my original point. For you, or me it's cost efficient because we have the luxury of being able to afford it. For many they will be cut out on battery price alone.
> 
> I've had friends that in the last 5 years have picked up 2nd hand cars for $600 and driven around for the next 2 years in that.
> I'm saying that the current batteries will make it unaffordable for many.



 i agree   , and i would suggest those who can least  afford a new EV  are the ones who would benefit the most  , which is my i was suggesting government leases  to  put second-hand EVs into the wider market   say 3 or 4 years down the track


----------



## moXJO (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> but you can make ethanol at home  ( especially if outside the cities ) making it drinking quality is the hard bit ( wink )  not everything works well on ethanol fuel either   but stuff like the farm ute  , and the back-up generator  and other ICE applications
> 
> i think it definitely deserves to stay in the mix of options for Australia ( even if only for remote areas )



There was an off the shelf machine that made ethanol that was around. Saw it about a decade or more ago.


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> The initial problem is cost. I think you forget most people can’t afford it, which was my original point. For you, or me it's cost efficient because we have the luxury of being able to afford it. For many they will be cut out on battery price alone.
> 
> I've had friends that in the last 5 years have picked up 2nd hand cars for $600 and driven around for the next 2 years in that.
> I'm saying that the current batteries will make it unaffordable for many.



Most low income people borrow to buy their cars any way, and the costs of a larger loan can be more than offset by the savings in petrol costs and maintenance.

Also, electric cars are covered under the national clean energy loan scheme where you can get loans with cheaper interest if you are buying solar panels, electric cars or home batteries, this means that the over all cost of the loan will be cheaper than a loan for a petrol car of the same class, then you factor in the lower ongoing vehicle costs and cheaper interest.

Those $600 cars are probably 15 - 20 years old, in 15 years from now my Tesla Model 3 will probably be in that class (maybe its battery will give it a minimum scrap value, so maybe it will be higher than $600 but it will be a similar thing, E.g both petrol and electric cars will drop in value towards their scrap value at some stage, and provide the market with cheap end of life clunkers.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Most low income people borrow to buy their cars any way, and the costs of a larger loan can be more than offset by the savings in petrol costs and maintenance.
> 
> Also, electric cars are covered under the national clean energy loan scheme where you can get loans with cheaper interest if you are buying solar panels, electric cars or home batteries, this means that the over all cost of the loan will be cheaper than a loan for a petrol car of the same class, then you factor in the lower ongoing vehicle costs and cheaper interest.
> 
> Those $600 cars are probably 15 - 20 years old, in 15 years from now my Tesla Model 3 will probably be in that class (maybe its battery will give it a minimum scrap value, so maybe it will be higher than $600 but it will be a similar thing, E.g both petrol and electric cars will drop in value towards their scrap value at some stage, and provide the market with cheap end of life clunkers.



With all due respect to the posters on the forum, I doubt any of you know or understand the spending habits of the bottom 30% of OZ citizens.  Working as a volunteer, I have a small amount of knowledge of  a range of  the bottom rungs of society, but I will never understand their spending habits. The likes of  afterpay, zip, credit card companies and cash converters are very much aimed at this bottom group, because that is where they will make the most of screwing them out of whatever few bucks they have. They are susceptible to those who prey on them, and I doubt there is anything we can do to prevent it.
Trying to project your logic or economic rationale onto other groups generally comes up with a surprise ending. 
So much of the call for subsidies, incentives etc end up distorting the market, more than likely to the detriment  of the poorer social economic groups.
If these people were in any position to borrow money, it is likely their credit rating would be such that no lender would bother unless it was loan shark with muscle. They borrow of friends or relatives assuming they have money.
Electric vehicles will always be out of their reach, no matter what the price, unless someone gives it to them.
Most likely their next action is to sell it at a fraction of the value cos they need the money to pay the rent, or kids school fees, or to buy maccas.
Sorry if I seem cynical, but thats exactly what I am.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> The initial problem is cost. I think you forget most people can’t afford it, which was my original point. For you, or me it's cost efficient because we have the luxury of being able to afford it. For many they will be cut out on battery price alone.
> 
> I've had friends that in the last 5 years have picked up 2nd hand cars for $600 and driven around for the next 2 years in that.
> I'm saying that the current batteries will make it unaffordable for many.



IMO that won't change, those people in 10years will be picking up VC's Tesla because he will be buying a new one as the range/battery capacity drops.
It will be interesting to see what the resale of a 10 year old ,EV is when you factor in appearance degradation, battery degradation and wear and tear on running gear.
I guess a lot will depend on what battery design is like in 10 years time, as to the viability of recycling, if batteries change markedly the value of the recovered material might not over the cost of recycling time will tell.


----------



## moXJO (7 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Most low income people borrow to buy their cars any way, and the costs of a larger loan can be more than offset by the savings in petrol costs and maintenance.
> 
> Also, electric cars are covered under the national clean energy loan scheme where you can get loans with cheaper interest if you are buying solar panels, electric cars or home batteries, this means that the over all cost of the loan will be cheaper than a loan for a petrol car of the same class, then you factor in the lower ongoing vehicle costs and cheaper interest.
> 
> Those $600 cars are probably 15 - 20 years old, in 15 years from now my Tesla Model 3 will probably be in that class (maybe its battery will give it a minimum scrap value, so maybe it will be higher than $600 but it will be a similar thing, E.g both petrol and electric cars will drop in value towards their scrap value at some stage, and provide the market with cheap end of life clunkers.



People buying $600 cars don't often borrow.
All those "national schemes" don't mean anything if you are on the wrong side of the divide.
I agree with everything you are saying. It absolutely makes sense if you can afford it. But lower income won't touch it because even $3k can be prohibitively expensive.

But I'm sure petrol cars will survive till batteries become cheaper.


----------



## moXJO (7 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> IMO that won't change, those people in 10years will be picking up VC's Tesla because he will be buying a new one as the range/battery capacity drops.
> It will be interesting to see what the resale of a 10 year old ,EV is when you factor in appearance degradation, battery degradation and wear and tear on running gear.



There was a Tesla with a million miles on it. The service history was shown on it.
I suppose the cheaper imports will run cheaper at end of life.

The current teslas will hold decent value imo.

It's not a major issue about cost at this stage. Just an observation that batteries are damn expensive.


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## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> People buying $600 cars don't often borrow.
> All those "national schemes" don't mean anything if you are on the wrong side of the divide.
> I agree with everything you are saying. It absolutely makes sense if you can afford it. But lower income won't touch it because even $3k can be prohibitively expensive.
> 
> But I'm sure petrol cars will survive till batteries become cheaper.



Absolutely, one of my kids would find 3k impossible to get together and he is in his 40's. He will be driving a worn out Commodore, untill he can't get one.
The other thing of course, when you say people who buy $600 cars don't borrow, the reality is a lot of people who buy $600 cars can't borrow no one will lend to them other than last resort or payday lenders.
Appollogies Mick, just read your post above which covers those less fortunate well.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> There was a Tesla with a million miles on it. The service history was shown on it.
> I suppose the cheaper imports will run cheaper at end of life.
> 
> The current teslas will hold decent value imo.
> ...



Absolutely, but the other interesting thing is the same people who say batteries will get cheaper, due to advances in technology, also say that EV battery degradation isn't an issues because it is recyclable, intimating that their could be a very good residual value.
If battery technology changes considerably, which is on the cards, there is every possibility that the current batteries are only worth scrap value, down the track.
This is one of the reasons I'm leaning toward PHEV.


----------



## Jeda (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> but you can make ethanol at home  ( especially if outside the cities ) making it drinking quality is the hard bit ( wink )  not everything works well on ethanol fuel either   but stuff like the farm ute  , and the back-up generator  and other ICE applications
> 
> i think it definitely deserves to stay in the mix of options for Australia ( even if only for remote areas )




hahaha, yes. It is even harder to make it drinkable for engines. I've seen a few mates melt the pistons on their engines with poor quality ethanol. Not to mention the sludge and water build up in the fuel system :-(


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely, but the other interesting thing is the same people who say batteries will get cheaper, due to advances in technology, also say that EV battery degradation isn't an issues because it is recyclable, intimating that their could be a very good residual value.
> If battery technology changes considerably, which is on the cards, there is every possibility that the current batteries are only worth scrap value, down the track.
> This is one of the reasons I'm leaning toward PHEV.



 how is that battery recycling tech  going  ,  i see companies researching it  , but where  are the collection depots  for the ( non-lead-acid ) batteries   , i can offload the lead-acid ones  at the recyclers


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 December 2021)

Jeda said:


> Ethonol is a moderatly expensive shrt term replacement. It is more expensive to produce thatn petrol, most engines and fuel systems are designed to use it, meaning that there will be an added cost to retrofit small engine tools and vehicles and generators.



I'm not really advocating it, it has a limited role to play and works if done correctly but has very major issues with scale.

My real point though is about the irrational approach many take toward it. Suggest putting E10 in their car and they see the stuff as pure evil which, for any vehicle that is correctly set up to use it, is complete nonsense so far as the car is concerned. There are arguments against it in terms of resource use and so on but so far as running the engine is concerned, so long as it's set up to use it then it's just not a problem. Obviously if someone runs it in an engine not suitably set up then that's going to end badly but then filling the tank with kerosene or water won't work too well either.

Can't convince many though. They can't see the difference between politics, economics, environment / resources and engineering is my point really. Just because there's an economic or political argument for or against a particular technology says nothing about it's technical merits.

So I'm not advocating it beyond the sensible scale of putting wastes to use etc but would I put E10 in an expensive car? Sure, so long as the car's set up for it then there's no reason to avoid it. Religion or politics isn't chemistry.

Same with EV's hence my commenting in this thread, my point being about the overall thought process not ethanol itself (the thread being electric cars not alcohol powered cars). There's an awful lot of politics and "religion" of a sort caught up in the whole issue of vehicle fuels, ethanol being a very obvious example as is electric, but that really says nothing about the practicalities, economics and other issues surrounding the use of EV's in practice. If it's practical as a car then it ought not be a political statement - it's a means of transport.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i agree   , and i would suggest those who can least  afford a new EV  are the ones who would benefit the most  , which is my i was suggesting government leases  to  put second-hand EVs into the wider market   say 3 or 4 years down the track




Governments could start by electrifying their own car fleets which would not only give them some idea of what ev car ownership is like, but would necessitate them adding recharging infrastructure as well.

They should lead by example I reckon.


----------



## sptrawler (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> how is that battery recycling tech  going  ,  i see companies researching it  , but where  are the collection depots  for the ( non-lead-acid ) batteries   , i can offload the lead-acid ones  at the recyclers



As with everything the hype is far in front of the actuality, neometals NMT have a recycling process in the early stages of operation, but as with most of these new renewable technology driven companies, the punters get all revved up then think about the what ifs and go off the boil.
IMO this is causing a lot of the surges and retractions in share prices, very emotionally driven.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Governments could start by electrifying their own car fleets which would not only give them some idea of what ev car ownership is like, but would necessitate them adding recharging infrastructure as well.
> 
> They should lead by example I reckon.



I hate to disagree with you there Sir Rumpole,  but I think it would do no such thing.
Governments don't pay  Luxury car tax, they don't pay rego or insurance, they don't pay GST, and most important, its not coming out of their pocket.
Mick


----------



## divs4ever (7 December 2021)

i am told the governments ( at various  levels ) lease more often than buy outright 

 but yes they should be leading by example (  and i don't mean giving  every MP a Tesla  as part of the 'salary package ' )


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Governments don't pay Luxury car tax, they don't pay rego or insurance, they don't pay GST, and most important, its not coming out of their pocket.



They do however run rather a lot of vehicles all up and they're typically sold off when still relatively new.

A significant portion of all cars on the road are current or former government or big business fleet cars so what they buy today does have an influence on what second hand buyers own down the track.

If governments and big business both did it, that would be significant.


----------



## JohnDe (7 December 2021)

_*Why Are Fossil Fuel Subsidies So Hard To Eliminate?*_

Fossil fuel subsidies are a crashed tractor trailer of razor wire, soaked in oil and sewage, rolled in jagged glass, and sprayed with arsenic.
_
There is congratulatory back-patting among some circles as 20 countries, including some big ones, agreed to phase out funding for fossil fuel projects outside of their borders during COP26 in Glasgow. It is good news, but we’ve been here before. In 2009, both the G20 and the G7 agreed to stop subsidizing fossil fuels, including foreign economic development. Every country failed. The US failed completely, with no progress at all per the NRDC. Canada and China did better, but 12 years later, still both subsidize the majority of the fossil fuels that they subsidized in 2009.

*What Is A Subsidy?*

The first problem is getting everyone to agree with what is meant by the word subsidy. Seriously, this shouldn’t be difficult, but different definitions lead to different outcomes, and often those outcomes hurt or help one particular group of stakeholders more than another, leading to pressure to include or exclude things......._









						Why Are Fossil Fuel Subsidies So Hard To Eliminate?
					

Fossil fuel subsidies are a crashed tractor trailer of razor wire, soaked in oil and sewage, rolled in jagged glass, and sprayed with arsenic.




					cleantechnica.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i am told the governments ( at various levels ) lease more often than buy outright



Probably varies between states and also with local governments but from experience when I worked in the PS, any "normal" vehicle was leased without exception. The only ones owned were anything specialised.

If it's a standard car, van, ute etc then leased. If it's a specially fitted out truck then owned. 

Might vary around the country however.


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> With all due respect to the posters on the forum, I doubt any of you know or understand the spending habits of the bottom 30% of OZ citizens.  Working as a volunteer, I have a small amount of knowledge of  a range of  the bottom rungs of society, but I will never understand their spending habits. The likes of  afterpay, zip, credit card companies and cash converters are very much aimed at this bottom group, because that is where they will make the most of screwing them out of whatever few bucks they have. They are susceptible to those who prey on them, and I doubt there is anything we can do to prevent it.
> Trying to project your logic or economic rationale onto other groups generally comes up with a surprise ending.
> So much of the call for subsidies, incentives etc end up distorting the market, more than likely to the detriment  of the poorer social economic groups.
> If these people were in any position to borrow money, it is likely their credit rating would be such that no lender would bother unless it was loan shark with muscle. They borrow of friends or relatives assuming they have money.
> ...



I have some understanding how the welfare class and lower income parts working class live and what drives them because I grew up in a lower income working class family, and my wife’s side of the family has a bunch of welfare class and “pay check to pay check” type working class.

But the welfare class are not the drivers behind the uptake different vehicles, then will consume from the used vehicle market, and that market will be populated by what ever vehicles the middle and working classes gravitate to.

My original comment was just saying that if people who normally fund their cars with loans decide to buy an EV, they can actually afford a larger loan that they could with a petrol car because the other running costs are lower, which frees up money for a higher car payment.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I have some understanding how the welfare class and lower income parts working class live and what drives them because I grew up in a lower income working class family, and my wife’s side of the family has a bunch of welfare class and “pay check to pay check” type working class.
> 
> But the welfare class are not the drivers behind the uptake different vehicles, then will consume from the used vehicle market, and that market will be populated by what ever vehicles the middle and working classes gravitate to.
> 
> *My original comment was just saying that if people who normally fund their cars with loans decide to buy an EV, they can actually afford a larger loan that they could with a petrol car because the other running costs are lower, which frees up money for a higher car payment.*




Could well be.

Speaking of costs, how often does your Tesla need servicing, what usually gets done and how much does it cost ?


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> People buying $600 cars don't often borrow.
> All those "national schemes" don't mean anything if you are on the wrong side of the divide.
> I agree with everything you are saying. It absolutely makes sense if you can afford it. But lower income won't touch it because even $3k can be prohibitively expensive.
> 
> But I'm sure petrol cars will survive till batteries become cheaper.



As I said before, $600 cars are cars over 15 years old normally, there will be plenty of those about for a long time, and eventually you will have 15 year old evs.


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Could well be.
> 
> Speaking of costs, how often does your Tesla need servicing, what usually gets done and how much does it cost ?



I have owned it for two and a half years now, it’s done 27,000km and there has been no servicing needed so far, but I will let you guys know when it’s needs something done.

I rang Tesla when I hit 20,000 km and asked them if I needed to do anything, and he said just keep an eye on the Tyres, and that when it comes time to replace them they will probably replace the cabin air filter, and check the brakes and brake fluid.


----------



## Value Collector (7 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Probably varies between states and also with local governments but from experience when I worked in the PS, any "normal" vehicle was leased without exception. The only ones owned were anything specialised.
> 
> If it's a standard car, van, ute etc then leased. If it's a specially fitted out truck then owned.
> 
> Might vary around the country however.



Same in the Army, the “Green Fleet” (the actual army looking stuff) was owned, but all the “white fleet” (standard looking land cruisers, vans and passenger cars) were all leased.


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## JohnDe (7 December 2021)

*Elon Musk *“_Get rid of all EV subsidies, get rid of all subsidies including oil & gas_”


----------



## rederob (7 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> *Elon Musk *“_Get rid of all EV subsidies, get rid of all subsidies including oil & gas_”




It's ok for Elon to say this now, but the leg-up Tesla needed to get to where it is today came from a broadbased subsidy regime.
At August 2020 Tesla’s total subsidy value according to  available data was $2.44 billion across 109 “awards” — 82 federal grants and tax credits as well as 27 state and local awards.
However, subsidies to other automakers in America total over $100B and these companies are continuing to struggle financially *and *with maintaining market share.
Tesla will have stolen the mantle as America's premier automaker well before 2030, subsidies or none.


----------



## qldfrog (8 December 2021)

If we are serious about EVs cars, and green powerwe might need one or 2 of thesehttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-12-06/green-power-a-300-billion-plan-to-bring-clean-energy-to-china-s-cities
@Smurf1976  may be interested
Solar farms inland then a mega line each to Sydney Melbourne Brisbane
But knowing this country, we will roll out EVs as mandatory during next labour gov, then get repeated blackout for years while starting a 10y plan to build 3 lines , then
down to 1 after budget issue, native secret sites and endangered long legs pygmy frogs.
By the time it will get delivered, we will be back to mini fusion reactors in cbd making it obsolete..but the longuest one in the southern hemisphere 😁


----------



## rederob (8 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> If we are serious about EVs cars, and green powerwe might need one or 2 of thesehttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-12-06/green-power-a-300-billion-plan-to-bring-clean-energy-to-china-s-cities
> @Smurf1976  may be interested
> Solar farms inland then a mega line each to Sydney Melbourne Brisbane
> But knowing this country, we will roll out EVs as mandatory during next labour gov, then get repeated blackout for years while starting a 10y plan to build 3 lines , then
> ...



@qldfrog has me on ignore so won't see my reply.
First a digression: As his Bloomberg link notes, China will - in a total of 15 years via renewables - have built an electricity structure equivalent to America's, which took them over one hundred years.  Those who keep pointing to China being a problem CO2 emitter should bear in mind the incredible pace of their renewables rollout.
The next digression is to a solution.  It's green hydrogen via wind/solar and the increasingly cheaper electrolysers being produced despite scale not yet being reached.  It's a global solution because hydrogen can be stored in various forms and released as required for energy (not just electricity).  Clearly the basic infrastructure for this solution to be in play will take around 5 years, so what happens in the interim will get interesting.  
The bit that @qldfrog just does not understand is that today you can make EVs cheaper than (size) equivalent ICE vehicles, and scale battery sizes - which are their costliest input -  to markets by allowing vehicle range as the price optionality.  So NEVs are coming to Australia irrespective of any government policies - just as Tesla has proven - and the only question is how many and how soon.
I see 2022 as the year that NEVs will break the back of ICE because so far NEVs have not been price competitive *and *been severely lacking in choice.   Add to that the fact that worlds biggest vehicle market - China - only started knocking out decent NEVs this year and, through LFP batteries that are mooted at $90/Kwh, can produce them theoretically cheaper than ICE ($100/Kwh being the magical price equivalence barrier).
I don't see Tesla being affected at all as NEV demand will go through the roof and Teslas just happen to tick more boxes than most other Johnny come latelies.


----------



## Jeda (8 December 2021)

rederob said:


> @qldfrog has me on ignore so won't see my reply.
> First a digression: As his Bloomberg link notes, China will - in a total of 15 years via renewables - have built an electricity structure equivalent to America's, which took them over one hundred years.  Those who keep pointing to China being a problem CO2 emitter should bear in mind the incredible pace of their renewables rollout.
> The next digression is to a solution.  It's green hydrogen via wind/solar and the increasingly cheaper electrolysers being produced despite scale not yet being reached.  It's a global solution because hydrogen can be stored in various forms and released as required for energy (not just electricity).  Clearly the basic infrastructure for this solution to be in play will take around 5 years, so what happens in the interim will get interesting.
> The bit that @qldfrog just does not understand is that today you can make EVs cheaper than (size) equivalent ICE vehicles, and scale battery sizes - which are their costliest input -  to markets by allowing vehicle range as the price optionality.  So NEVs are coming to Australia irrespective of any government policies - just as Tesla has proven - and the only question is how many and how soon.
> ...




The game change will be Battery packs and solar in all homes. 

As the price of batteries come down, helped by EV production, home installations will increase. Taking a massive load of off existing infrastructure. It will not matter if there is no sun during cloudy days, because the battery pack is topped up during the off peak period in readiness for peak usage.

All homes will be connected and monitored through software used by the electricity companies, which can monitor and adjust distribution of spare power from homes with batteries and EV's that are plugged in.

I am currently looking at building a new home and looking at all the power options is very exciting. The future looks bright


----------



## divs4ever (8 December 2021)

if i installed a battery pack  i would be shifting to off-grid  , with maybe a second system to sell to the grid 

 i have had a gutful of having solar  but no power  'because of safety issues  on a damaged grid ' ( things like  having transmission lines the regularly go under flood waters  . and the rarer tree branch take-down )

 why the hell would  i trust a government that can't raise transmission lines across a gully in the last 40 years ( and god forbid you do it yourself )


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

Jeda said:


> The game change will be Battery packs and solar in all homes.
> 
> As the price of batteries come down, helped by EV production, home installations will increase. Taking a massive load of off existing infrastructure. It will not matter if there is no sun during cloudy days, because the battery pack is topped up during the off peak period in readiness for peak usage.
> 
> ...



If you have the maximum solar on the roof.
Whether to buy a stand alone house battery for example 10/kWh at say $10k, or buy an EV that has V2G capabilities with a 60kwh battery and just put the $10k toward that? That is the question IMO
Or indeed lease the V2G compatible car from a power company like AGL and sell your existing car? Ah so many options, the mind boggles.lol


----------



## moXJO (8 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If you have the maximum solar on the roof.
> Whether to buy a stand alone house battery for example 10/kWh at say $10k, or buy an EV that has V2G capabilities with a 60kwh battery and just put the $10k toward that? That is the question IMO
> Or indeed lease the V2G compatible car from a power company like AGL and sell your existing car? Ah so many options, the mind boggles.lol



And then fill it at the shopping centre for free.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

Or at the next EVs, push for the company to install free onsite charging, in the works carpark.
Jeez if I was still working I'd pushing for that over a patriae, get ahead of the game.lol


----------



## divs4ever (8 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If you have the maximum solar on the roof.
> Whether to buy a stand alone house battery for example 10/kWh at say $10k, or buy an EV that has V2G capabilities with a 60kwh battery and just put the $10k toward that? That is the question IMO
> Or indeed lease the V2G compatible car from a power company like AGL and sell your existing car? Ah so many options, the mind boggles.lol



 because depending on the flooding  and storm damage the power can ( and HAS ) stay off for 2 weeks  ( often less  , but 2 weeks has NOT been unique in  last 40 years )

 .. so with the power OFF for say a week  ( happens about every 5 years )   how is recharging that EV looking ( even if the roads are usable , they normally are out for about 3 days  during  heavy flooding ) ( god forbid  i resort to the petrol generator to recharge the EV .. that is so NOT green )
 and joy of joys this is in South EAST Queensland  those folks the other side of the Great Divide   have the odd additional problem ( like power poles blown flat ) as does North Queensland 

 even in relatively populous area ( 5 acre blocks )  one solution does not fit all


----------



## JohnDe (8 December 2021)

What a great idea - 

*Leftover roadhouse deep fryer oil will power the Nullarbor's first EV fast charger at Caiguna*

_Electric vehicle owners will be able to have their hot chips and eat them too, with a remote West Australian roadhouse planning to install fast chargers that run on leftover fryer oil.

From January, a crowdfunded 50kW DC charger at Caiguna Roadhouse in the middle of the Nullarbor will plug the 720-kilometre-wide gap between charging networks being built by the WA and SA governments.

It will mean that when the respective "electric highways" are completed, an EV owner will be able to drive from Sydney to Perth....


But what makes the Caiguna charger unique is the generator fuel.

Off-grid and unable to afford the up-front cost of solar and batteries, the roadhouse will generate low-emissions electricity through burning something it has been throwing out for years: leftover chip oil.

.....
one day in November, 66 EV owners drove out to Dowerin, where they hosted a barbecue, gave free rides to the public, and took the skeptical roadhouse owner for his first ever spin in an EV.

"He scratched his head, went for a drive and looked at the charger, and that's when I said to him, 'How much of this oil have you got?'" Mr Edwards said.

"He said, '160 to 200 litres. We throw it in the tip.'

"I said, 'You better start saving it up because we can charge cars with that.'"_












						'We have to filter out the crispy bits': How leftover chip oil will keep EV owners moving across the Nullarbor
					

EV owners are crowdfunding a fast charger in the middle of the Nullarbor — and it will run on leftover chip oil from the local roadhouse.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> because depending on the flooding  and storm damage the power can ( and HAS ) stay off for 2 weeks  ( often less  , but 2 weeks has NOT been unique in  last 40 years )
> 
> .. so with the power OFF for say a week  ( happens about every 5 years )   how is recharging that EV looking ( even if the roads are usable , they normally are out for about 3 days  during  heavy flooding ) ( god forbid  i resort to the petrol generator to recharge the EV .. that is so NOT green )
> and joy of joys this is in South EAST Queensland  those folks the other side of the Great Divide   have the odd additional problem ( like power poles blown flat ) as does North Queensland
> ...



Well if that is the worry, you could buy a PHEV with say a 14kwh battery e.g I will use last year's Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, base model around $50k equivalent ICE model $40k.
Right so you get the car for in reality the same price as the ICE car $40k, because you save the $10k on the home battery and you get a 14kwh battery instead of a 10kwh one.
Most of the time armageddon hasn't hit, but if it does, once a day you go for a run to the shops for the car to charge itself off the self contained 80kw  generator, or plug it in at the shops, or just fire up the car in the car port and let it do it there.
Sounds like a reasonable plan to me, most of the time when life is normal, you are running around using no fuel, when your home your charging on solar and running the house after dark off the car, if the car occasionally ends up flat you start it up and charge it.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> What a great idea -
> 
> *Leftover roadhouse deep fryer oil will power the Nullarbor's first EV fast charger at Caiguna*
> 
> ...



They should have been doing it years ago to run their gen sets, jeez guys have been running old diesel 4x4's for years on chip oil.lol
It's great that manufacturer's are starting to make off the shelf units.
There are some great and funny stories on the internet about people running on chip oil.
Years ago I had a 300 series Landrover Discovery TDI, I had lpg injection and was going to run it on waste vegetable oil, but the wife said she wasn't going to drive around in something that smelt like a fish and chip shop on wheels.lol
That was the down side, the exhaust does smell weird,.lol


----------



## JohnDe (8 December 2021)

More evidence - 

_*Ampol is entering the power retailing business because it sees that within a decade or so a large proportion of Australia’s vehicle fleet will be driven by electricity rather than petrol,* so it must join the fuel switchover or it will become a redundant force in its base business. And the network of service stations must be able to charge a vehicle inside 10 minutes, or people not using home charging will charge their cars at supermarkets and stores such as Bunnings where they spend longer periods doing the shopping, allowing the car to be charged.

Selling electricity for cars means you must also enter the wider power market, particularly as many vehicles will be recharged in the home. Being successful in that electricity market will require the development of a range of new skills.

Shell has acquired the base electricity market skills from which it must develop a database marketing program. BP must be looking hard at whether it follows Ampol and Shell._






						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> because depending on the flooding  and storm damage the power can ( and HAS ) stay off for 2 weeks  ( often less  , but 2 weeks has NOT been unique in  last 40 years )
> 
> .. so with the power OFF for say a week  ( happens about every 5 years )   how is recharging that EV looking ( even if the roads are usable , they normally are out for about 3 days  during  heavy flooding ) ( god forbid  i resort to the petrol generator to recharge the EV .. that is so NOT green )
> and joy of joys this is in South EAST Queensland  those folks the other side of the Great Divide   have the odd additional problem ( like power poles blown flat ) as does North Queensland
> ...



In that situation it would be no different to petrol, because you need electricity to run petrol bowsers anyway.

but if you are talking about you local neighbourhood just having the power cut, then you would just drive to a public charger in an unaffected area and charge, just like you drive to a public petrol bowser.

if the power is off for just 1 day though, you probably wouldn’t be affected at all, because you car is charging every day, so its probably going to be close to full with a weeks worth of charge, and if you are the type of guy that drives 400km a day and needs to charge every day, then during that 400km range you will be passing public chargers, so having a local power outage doesn’t matter


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> if the power is off for just 1 day though, you probably wouldn’t be affected at all



You'd likely be better off since at any given time the average petrol tank will be nowhere near full.

That petrol pumps don't work without power is one of the concerns that arises in extended power outages by the way. First the power goes but in due course communications is lost as batteries run down and so too the lack of ability for locals to obtain vehicle fuel becomes a problem.


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## divs4ever (8 December 2021)

i was considering a petrol generator and converting it to ethanol  ( at worst plenty of sticks on the property to heat up the still  ) and grow some pumpkins or potatoes  to turn the left-overs in ethanol  .. if the US hill-billies ( moonshiners  ) can do it , maybe i can as well  , i just won't be making hundreds of gallons off it a year 

 i can't wait to see how all those 'smart systems '  work without mains power for a week ( that they hope will run our lives )


----------



## JohnDe (8 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i was considering a petrol generator and converting it to ethanol  ( at worst plenty of sticks on the property to heat up the still  ) and grow some pumpkins or potatoes  to turn the left-overs in ethanol  .. if the US hill-billies ( moonshiners  ) can do it , maybe i can as well  , i just won't be making hundreds of gallons off it a year
> 
> i can't wait to see how all those 'smart systems '  work without mains power for a week ( that they hope will run our lives )




Fortunately week long black-outs in Australia are rarer than hen’s teeth.


----------



## divs4ever (8 December 2021)

NOT where that property is  ( about once every 5 years , for the last 40 years )   yes it an anomaly  but they have  doubled the homes in the area in the last 5 years  ( mostly 10 acre  blocks  chopped in 5 acre ones  , and they sub-divided the old dairy farm as well )

 but you can also lose power for a day or two  up to 3 times a year ( normally lightning strikes and fallen branches )   ( but you can work around that even without a generator  , since that is mostly in Summer/Autumn )


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Fortunately week long black-outs in Australia are rarer than hen’s teeth.



That is true and hopefully it stays that way, the biggest challenge at the moment, is allowing the orderly transition from a fossil fuel based electrical system to a renewables based system.
The only thing that can stuff it up, is pushing the speed of the changeover ahead of the technical limitations of the system, for political outcomes IMO.
Hopefully that doesn't happen, but all this talk about deadlines usually ends up with $hit or bust situations, where you end up with a poor result by cutting corners in order to meet political deadlines.
What needs to happen is as has been said on this thread, it needs to be technically driven not political or price driven, we all have to end up living with the outcome, if that ends up being a third world electrical system, not many will be happy.
For example you have just de commissioned a 2,000MW power station and next winter you have a week of poor renewable generation, but find you only have storage to carry three days.
It would be like covid, shut everything down, everyone go home and your power will be 8hrs out of every 24hrs until generation and storage returns to sustainable levels, sounds fanciful but that would be the reality and it has been done before.
From memory in the early 1960's in Perth, an East Perth power station unit caught fire or blew can't recall, but the outcome was Perth had rostered rolling blackouts for twelve months from memory.
The reality is, changing over from a system where you just press a button and the power comes on, then when you don't need it you just press the button to stop it.
To a system that you aren't in control of how much fuel you have the weather is, puts a lot of variables, into a complex equation.
Some would laugh and say that would never happen, I've worked in power generation for nearly 50 years and there has been several times where the system has got through on a wish, a prayer and a lot of luck and good fortune.
That is in a system that has at call press of a button generation, the problem is ten fold where you are relying on a fuel source you have no control over.  

.


----------



## divs4ever (8 December 2021)

Victorian Big Battery switched on​








						Victorian Big Battery switched on
					

MELBOURNE, AAP – The biggest battery in the southern hemisphere is operating in Victoria. Energy Minister Lily D’Ambrosio on Wednesday officially launched the $84 million Big Battery, located at Moorabool near Geelong. Owned and operated by French renewable energy giant Neoen, the battery has...




					thebull.com.au
				




 it will be interesting to see how this survives the bush-fire season


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> Victorian Big Battery switched on​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What do you mean? Get the marshmallows and toasting forks ready. 🤣
I can't wait until the choice has to be made, Dan we can run the outer North of Melbourne for 1 day or Toorak and the inner city for 1 day, what's your call?


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> i was considering a petrol generator and converting it to ethanol  ( at worst plenty of sticks on the property to heat up the still  ) and grow some pumpkins or potatoes  to turn the left-overs in ethanol  .. if the US hill-billies ( moonshiners  ) can do it , maybe i can as well  , i just won't be making hundreds of gallons off it a year
> 
> i can't wait to see how all those 'smart systems '  work without mains power for a week ( that they hope will run our lives )



A home battery with solar is far better than a Generator.

1. in bad times it will provide back up power in exactly the same way as a generator, except without the maintenance and fuel costs.

2, Every other day it makes you money by letting you use your cheap solar instead of importing grid power.

a generator is a cost even when you don't use it, where as solar and batteries are being used every day and paying for them selves.


----------



## SirRumpole (8 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> A home battery with solar is far better than a Generator.
> 
> 1. in bad times it will provide back up power in exactly the same way as a generator, except without the maintenance and fuel costs.
> 
> ...



Yes but if you are on a property and you need power away from the homestead you either need a generator or a very long extension cord.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2021)

These guys went off grid for 200 hours using the Tesla power walls, and they have two cars to car, and its a snowy winter.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes but if you are on a property and you need power away from the homestead you either need a generator or a very long extension cord.



Most home back up generators are fixed in place and hard wired in by an electrician, at least thats how the ones I see on you tube are, I haven't had one myself.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

Put me down for one of these, as long as it is V2G compatible.








						2022 Haval H6 plug-in hybrid revealed with 201km electric range, but not for Australia
					

Haval's new plug-in SUV has more power than a hot hatch and more electric range than some full EVs – but it won't come to Australia, for now.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> These guys went off grid for 200 hours using the Tesla power walls, and they have two cars to car, and its a snowy winter.



I don't doubt they did what they claim but:

They have 4 Tesla Powerwalls and a solar system that's substantially larger than would sensibly fit on the roof of many homes. All up, it's circa $60k AUD worth of equipment.

It was extremely cold outside and yet the electrical load remained low to the point that even a microwave oven being used lead to a visible jump in consumption. *Where's the heating and where's the hot water load? *

I'm not suggesting they cheated in what they did but there seems to be a bit of trickery involved here. Great big battery and solar system and seemingly no or very little heating or hot water isn't a realistic scenario for the average household.

My guess is they're burning something to keep warm and heat water. Something as in gas most likely and if not gas then probably oil.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes but if you are on a property and you need power away from the homestead you either need a generator or a very long extension cord.



Wellll.  
And that is the old model.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't doubt they did what they claim but:
> 
> They have 4 Tesla Powerwalls and a solar system that's substantially larger than would sensibly fit on the roof of many homes. All up, it's circa $60k AUD worth of equipment.
> 
> ...



They have natural gas heating, and probably hot water too, however you can see their solar panels were idling back each day once their batteries were full, so there is plenty of capacity to heat their hot water too if they did go electric hot water.

My house is fully electric, and I reckon in emergencies I could go off grid with just one power wall, all I would have to do is just be careful with how much hot water I used and when I charged the car if it was cloudy.

But I have a 8.2 KWH solar system, so on a sunny day it would have no problem heating the water from dead cold, topping up the car with 30% charge and having a power wall full by the time the sun goes down, and the power wall would easily cover an average night to the sun came up again


----------



## rederob (8 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> My guess is they're burning something to keep warm and heat water. Something as in gas most likely and if not gas then probably oil.



My guess?
Californians, so I reckon they burnt through their stash of buddha sticks so never had a chance to feel cold.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2021)

This guy only has a small 5 Kwh solar system 2 power walls, and was able to run his house for 5 full days, but he made no attempt to conserve power and was still running air con etc as usual, So I think if you were worried about losing grid power, solar and battery combo is a great option, you definitely would be fine especially if you were conserving power as you would in a real situation.

If you were considering installing a generator, you could just invest the funds into more solar panels and you wouldn't run out after 5 days like this guy, but its not often power cuts last more than 5 days.


----------



## Value Collector (8 December 2021)

Here is an actual account from a guy that survived 4 days without power during the Texas power outage.


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> This guy only has a small 5 Kwh solar system 2 power walls, and was able to run his house for 5 full days, but he made no attempt to conserve power and was still running air con etc as usual, So I think if you were worried about losing grid power, solar and battery combo is a great option, you definitely would be fine especially if you were conserving power as you would in a real situation.
> 
> If you were considering installing a generator, you could just invest the funds into more solar panels and you wouldn't run out after 5 days like this guy, but its not often power cuts last more than 5 days.




I will be able to tell you shortly, the son is going off grid in January.


----------



## qldfrog (9 December 2021)

Interesting debate, own situation very similar to @divs4ever i hope sanity will remain and the move will be technically sound while taking account the 20% who do not live in suburbia or inner cities.and who anecdotally feed you or at least are self sufficient and not competing for cans at woolies
If i was to stay in Australia and in current property, i would go off grid and batteries tomorrow.
And try to get a decent plug in hybrid.
No way would i want to trust the grid aka big corporation and or gov to charge uncharge my batteries.
But that is not majority of people situation
An interesting article i just found
I give it its own post


----------



## qldfrog (9 December 2021)

https://theconversation-com.cdn.amp...s-if-the-numbers-dont-add-up-economist-142765
I would disagree on the co2 global warming directional link but truly,fossil fuels are limited ,polluting and yes: we need to do better.mankind can not rely on oil for much longer.
But relying on an even more complex grid , and fleet of vehicles which can and will fry after a single solar flare,nor can handle a one to one vehicle switch . 
Not exactly bright.
What EVs really mean ultimately is the end of individual transport. 
The great Reset again. As per that article, this ultimately leads in the west to the end of freedom of movement.
And after the covid pretext,we are ripe
Go back to your kennel, populace .
We are not saving the olanet, just ensuring we are not all in together but preserve the better life of the fews..and this time ..the fews are not the west inclusive,has it has been in the past 100y.time will tell..
Saw the first MG EVs in a shopping centre yesterday.bland look but ok


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Wellll.
> And that is the old model.





I wonder how long it will power a welder out in the paddock ?


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder how long it will power a welder out in the paddock ?




You must have a very long extension cord to reach the paddock


----------



## rederob (9 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder how long it will power a welder out in the paddock ?



The serious answer to this is that any farmer with a Tesla Cybertruck could drive to a far away paddock and use their V2L instantaneously.


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

Your Guide to Living with Off-Grid Power | Farms & Remote areas | Off-Grid Solar Sytems | RedEarth Energy OffGrid Australia
					

Off-Grid Solar Kits, Batteries & DIY SHED Power. Off-Grid Power. Stand Alone Systems for Home, Business & Farms. Off-Grid Solar Systems with Australia Wide Installation




					offgridaustralia.com.au


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

rederob said:


> The serious answer to this is that any farmer with a Tesla Cybertruck could drive to a far away paddock and use their V2L instantaneously.




You need one of these



ALL ELECTRIC. ALL F-150.​F-series is America’s best-selling truck for 44 years* for a reason. And now, it’s charging into the future with the all-new, all-electric 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning. It’s the first ever F-Series that’s gas-free and offers more purposeful technology, an elevated driving experience and trusted Built Ford Tough capability. Offering an ingenious array of connected, intelligent features with over-the-air Software Updates to help ensure your truck can get even better over time.


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

rederob said:


> The serious answer to this is that any farmer with a Tesla Cybertruck could drive to a far away paddock and use their V2L instantaneously.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> You need one of these
> 
> View attachment 133979
> 
> ALL ELECTRIC. ALL F-150.​F-series is America’s best-selling truck for 44 years* for a reason. And now, it’s charging into the future with the all-new, all-electric 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning. It’s the first ever F-Series that’s gas-free and offers more purposeful technology, an elevated driving experience and trusted Built Ford Tough capability. Offering an ingenious array of connected, intelligent features with over-the-air Software Updates to help ensure your truck can get even better over time.




Coincidentally, I've just been reading about this one.


----------



## rederob (9 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> View attachment 133980



No more fluffing around to get electricity approved for a new building site.  Just rock up in the EV - Ford, Hummer, Rivian, Cybertruck (or Haval for @sptrawler )  and get on with the job.
Same goes for camping over weekends etc where you could *glamp *instead and aircon the tent for those hot and steamy nights!


----------



## rederob (9 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> But relying on an even more complex grid , and fleet of vehicles which can and will fry after a single solar flare,nor can handle a one to one vehicle switch .
> Not exactly bright.



The grid will need to be complex because of the intermittency of renewables and DER functionality, irrespective of NEVS.


qldfrog said:


> What EVs really mean ultimately is the end of individual transport.



Actually it will herald a greater ability to accommodate individual needs, as proven already by robotaxis.


qldfrog said:


> The great Reset again. As per that article, this ultimately leads in the west to the end of freedom of movement.



Sorry, but that's just a silly claim. 


qldfrog said:


> We are not saving the olanet, just ensuring we are not all in together but preserve the better life of the fews..and this time ..the fews are not the west



Given the greater populations are not in the west, you got this claim back to front as well. That's because for the first time NEVs are so cheap that you can pick up a *new BEV *for under US$5k.  So for the first time the very *many *on very low wages will actually be able to buy a car and travel to places they were never previously able to.


qldfrog said:


> Saw the first MG EVs in a shopping centre yesterday.bland look but ok



The MGs are absolute plodders.
This is where BEV design is heading (and for the same price as a Tesla):


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

rederob said:


> The grid will need to be complex because of the intermittency of renewables and DER functionality, irrespective of NEVS.
> 
> Actually it will herald a greater ability to accommodate individual needs, as proven already by robotaxis.
> 
> ...





I believe that the industry is way ahead of you in what will be required, and plans are already in motion. There is going to be a lot of competition coming in the next year or so, this will bring in new software and hardware.

*"Ampol set to join Shell, Telstra in bid to grab big piece of Australian electricity retail market"*
_
"Ampol has now committed to joining Shell and Telstra in attempting to carve out a significant share of the electricity retailing market. All three believe that the incumbent major retailers – AGL, Origin and EnergyAustralia – are not maximising the advantages of their databases, artificial intelligence and other developments in the technology society."


_









						Renewables to supply 69 pct of Australia’s main grid by 2030, government projections show
					

Morrison government projections show Australia’s main grid on track for 51 per cent renewables by 2025, and 69 per cent by 2030.




					reneweconomy.com.au


----------



## rederob (9 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I believe that the industry is way ahead of you in what will be required, and plans are already in motion. There is going to be a lot of competition coming in the next year or so, this will bring in new software and hardware.
> 
> *"Ampol set to join Shell, Telstra in bid to grab big piece of Australian electricity retail market"*
> 
> ...



Neither supply (capacity) nor retailing is the problem.  As @Smurf has banged on about for years, it's getting the technicals in place.  Not my field but, for example, in the event of a blackout where is the inertia coming from to drive distributed energy across the network from BEVs and home batteries?

Back on topic, I am starting a list of the features I want from a BEV

dedicated BEV platform (a la Tesla's)
800 volt architecture
400Km minimum range
voice command control of all functions
Uncluttered dashboard (minimalistic)
360degree surrounds and overhead view
advanced driver assistance systems
Autonomous driving (including parking)
V2L and V2H minimum
At the moment I am good for a Wuling:


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Neither supply (capacity) nor retailing is the problem.  As @Smurf has banged on about for years, it's getting the technicals in place.  Not my field but, for example, in the event of a blackout where is the inertia coming from to drive distributed energy across the network from BEVs and home batteries?




As mentioned, competition from Ampol, Telstra and Shell is going to create a race to be first in offering the best 'technicals' in place.

The 'inertia' required 'in the event of a blackout' will come from the batteries installed in homes and at specific locations provided by the supplier. South Australia, Victoria, Moorable, etc have or are setting up large battery power reserves.

The South Australian government has started a plan to have batteries installed in homes to help lower the cost of electricity to owners and also improve the grid during high peak usage.





__





						Home Battery Scheme closure
					






					www.homebatteryscheme.sa.gov.au


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Back on topic, I am starting a list of the features I want from a BEV
> 
> dedicated BEV platform (a la Tesla's)
> 800 volt architecture
> ...



I can certainly see China creaming the U.S in the E.V space, the rate of improvement in Chinese vehicles is mind blowing, 10 years ago the Great Wall utes and SUV's looked like junk, now the product from China is certainly stomping on the second tier Japanese manufacturers. This is actually causing a lot of consolidation in the smaller manufacturers of Europe and Japan.

On this trajectory China is going to decimate the established auto makers, within the next 10 years IMO.
Unfortunately I tend to think Tesla will be swallowed up in the process, but they will be one of the last to and may go willingly, if the price is right and space x hits its straps.

The overheads and impediments that the capitalist system has, make it a no brainer that China will leapfrog the U.S, they have no businesses making all the decisions, without government accountability, no unions demanding conditions and an  endless supply of Government money that is focused on growth.

The question is what will slow them down IMO, I tend to think things are moving that quickly, even tariffs would have limited effect now.
I think the World has to learn how to work with China, for a win/win situation, we have moved past the point of trying to slow their progress, way too much momentum IMO. 
Interesting times ahead for some.


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I can certainly see China creaming the U.S in the E.V space, the rate of improvement in Chinese vehicles is mind blowing, 10 years ago the Great Wall utes and SUV's looked like junk, now the product from China is certainly stomping on the second tier Japanese manufacturers. This is actually causing a lot of consolidation in the smaller manufacturers of Europe and Japan.
> 
> On this trajectory China is going to decimate the established auto makers, within the next 10 years IMO.
> Unfortunately I tend to think Tesla will be swallowed up in the process, but they will be one of the last to and may go willingly, if the price is right and space x hits its straps.
> ...




I can understand your view about China and the US EV industry, but could you share your reasoning on 'China...Tesla will be swallowed up in the process'.

Any company wanting to buy out Tesla is up for one very big loan.

Tesla are 8 years advanced of any other manufacturer on battery technology and software, as well as self drive research.  The Tesla self drive artificial intelligence alone is worth a fortune and is being advanced every day that someone uses it and AP in their Tesla. 

Taking over Tesla will require more than just taking over the car section, there is also the artificial intelligence, space travel, medical.....


----------



## Humid (9 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Do mean when they are drilling for the oil, and refining it?
> 
> You could also say why don’t people mention the recycling of materials, because as I mentioned before the battery materials will be almost endlessly recycled, meaning the accounting of the environmental impact will be spread across multiple generations of vehicles, not just the first one.
> 
> ...



Yeah pop over to BHPs smelter in Kambalda for some fresh air....the nose bleeds are avoidable if you can get your mask on quick


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I can understand your view about China and the US EV industry, but could you share your reasoning on 'China...Tesla will be swallowed up in the process'.
> 
> Any company wanting to buy out Tesla is up for one very big loan.
> 
> ...



If Tesla were 10 years advanced in battery technology, they wouldn't be buying batteries off BYD, well I wouldn't think they would.
With regard everything else it is pretty simple really,the West has industrialized over the 100 years or so, over that time the population has come to see how the system works.
The worker does the grunt work, the management steer the ship and the financial backers sit back and are rewarded for the loan of the money.
Over time the shine dulls as a worker, because they are there rain hail or shine day in day out, yet the driving mechanism is money which over time loses it attraction.
Once people have a comfortable life, the urge to chase more and more money, only drives a few many just say jeez I would rather have more holidays or less hours. At that point the productivity curve flattens, you have to pay a LOT more money, to get a little extra productivity.
That is where the West is ATM.

China on the other hand didn't have to pay for that first 100 years of climbing the curve, both industrially and socially, in 20 years they have the productivity and technological output of the West, without the cost of the labour component.
Their workers are probably amazed at the wages and standard of living they are having, so the motivation is through the roof the loyalty to the company would be through the roof, because they know from life 20 years ago what being poor is, so in China's situation money is still a massive motivator.
Hope I explained where I'm coming from, may be wrong, but I just think big step changes in technology and productivity are going to be easier achieved by China they have way too many things in their favour and the West is carrying a lot of baggage.
The reason Tesla will be swallowed up is, they manufacture cars in China, China will and probably already is reverse engineering their product.
Eventually Tesla will sell out of cars, to the Chinese for megga bucks and a junior holding in the company, let's be honest in 10 years time China could put an embargo on the sale of Tesla's in China, if it so suits them. What's Tesla going to do declare war on them?

Firstly you could say people would rather buy a Tesla than a Chinese car, Holden and Ford thought that when the Toyota Corolla rolled out, then came the crappy Hyundai's and Kia's. Look at us now.

Secondly when has China ever said we will play fair, it is only our Western ideology that expects it to happen.


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If Tesla were 10 years advanced in battery technology, they wouldn't be buying batteries off BYD, well I wouldn't think they would.
> With regard everything else it is pretty simple really,the West has industrialized over the 100 years or so, over that time the population has come to see how the system works.........
> 
> When has China ever said we will play fair, it is only our Western ideology that expects it to happen.




Even if Tesla is buying batteries from BYD (though I have not seen anything other than rumours to confirm this) this means nothing in regards to Tesla's battery advancement. Panasonic was building batteries for Tesla, under a Patent protection. Samsung build batteries for Apple under Patent.

The industrial revolution started in England during the early 1800's. China has had a very late start but, as you say, cheap labour has helped them grab much of the worlds required production of goods. Smart business minded Chinese officials created deals that allowed Western business to set up shop in China with an agreement to share technology.

China workers are now very well educated and accustomed to a high standard of living. Cheap labour is almost gone, now it is mechanisation and size that is their advantage.

We are in an unknow, many of the big western governments and manufacturers have pulled back from China, still dealing with them but much more cautiously.

Tesla have four gigafactories and plans to build more, the best China could do is to forcefully take over the China factory in the name of the people (communism).

Tesla is becoming a phenomena that we have not seen before. They don't advertise, yet they sell all their stock of vehicles. Tesla models do not have a body change every second year, instead they continually add improvements as soon as the engineers find one, constant 'over the air' software updates for free at home keep the cars software up to date and efficiency continually improving. Tesla have a satellite industry, offering anyone internet access, they have regular flights to space with a contract to NASA, and it doesn't stop there. Look up the insurance business, the biggest charging network in the world, the solar roof tiles, the battery back up system such as South Australia's, the glass business, artificial intelligence, work on a brain chip that has shown to give movement back to quadriplegic's.

China has no company that encompasses as much as Tesla.

The only threat to Tesla is China claiming the factory and banning sales.

Tesla could end up going bankrupt, but at the moment they are making strong profits and they have two factories about to open and build cars for many untapped nations in Europe. But lets say that they did go bankrupt, the company would not be sold as a whole, it would be broken up and the profitable sections sold off, the unprofitable closed forever and the technology leaked and sold to the highest bidders.

China is a threat but they know that their growth and prosperity is tied to the growth and prosperity of the rest of he world.









						SpaceX Wins NASA $2.9 Billion Contract to Build Moon Lander (Published 2021)
					

Elon Musk’s company bested Jeff Bezos’ Blue Origin and others in the contest to carry American astronauts to the lunar surface.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Value Collector (9 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Yeah pop over to BHPs smelter in Kambalda for some fresh air....the nose bleeds are avoidable if you can get your mask on quick



Do you want to visit that smelter once in the life of your vehicle, or every week for the vehicles life, because as I said before we know making battery materials has an impact, but you only have to mine the battery materials once, and then they can be almost endlessly recycled, where as the oil you burn is refined every week.


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Even if Tesla is buying batteries from BYD (though I have not seen anything other than rumours to confirm this) this means nothing in regards to Tesla's battery advancement. Panasonic was building batteries for Tesla, under a Patent protection. Samsung build batteries for Apple under Patent.
> 
> The industrial revolution started in England during the early 1800's. China has had a very late start but, as you say, cheap labour has helped them grab much of the worlds required production of goods. Smart business minded Chinese officials created deals that allowed Western business to set up shop in China with an agreement to share technology.
> 
> China workers are now very well educated and accustomed to a high standard of living. Cheap labour is almost gone, now it is mechanisation and size that is their advantage.



Chinese factory workers are paid a pittance compared to us, but to them it is a lot, because 20 years ago they earned nothing.




JohnDe said:


> We are in an unknow, many of the big western governments and manufacturers have pulled back from China, still dealing with them but much more cautiously.
> 
> Tesla have four gigafactories and plans to build more, the best China could do is to forcefully take over the China factory in the name of the people (communism).
> 
> Tesla is becoming a phenomena that we have not seen before. They don't advertise, yet they sell all their stock of vehicles. Tesla models do not have a body change every second year, instead they continually add improvements as soon as the engineers find one, constant 'over the air' software updates for free at home keep the cars software up to date and efficiency continually improving. Tesla have a satellite industry, offering anyone internet access, they have regular flights to space with a contract to NASA, and it doesn't stop there. Look up the insurance business, the biggest charging network in the world, the solar roof tiles, the battery back up system such as South Australia's, the glass business, artificial intelligence, work on a brain chip that has shown to give movement back to quadriplegic's.



I don't think they will go broke, just get out of car manufacturing, there just wont be enough money in it.




JohnDe said:


> China has no company that encompasses as much as Tesla.
> 
> The only threat to Tesla is China claiming the factory and banning sales.
> 
> ...



You are assuming two things, first Tesla can stay ahead in quality of product and secondly most people will buy a Tesla over a similar vehicle at half the price, many ships have sunk sailing on that course.
The last generation of Chinese Haval vehicles hardly sold, they were junk, this year the new model is selling well. Hyundai showed how quickly market sentiment can be turned around.
I hope China doesn't shut down all other vehicle manufacturing, but IMO it will take a massive joint effort to stop them, especially when greed and profits come into it.








						Haval sales up 90.3% in Australia, driven by H2 small SUV
					

There’s no doubt about it, 2020 has been a whirlwind...



					performancedrive.com.au
				












						VFACTS: GWM Haval on an upward sales trajectory
					

With new products such as the GWM Ute, Haval H6, and Haval Jolion, this Chinese company's Australian operation is picking up steam.




					www.carexpert.com.au
				




from the article:
The company ‘s star performer is the new 2021 GWM Ute 4×4, which found 747 owners in May to take its annual tally to 2386 units. These numbers equate to 4.2 per cent 4×4 ute market share in May and 3.0 per cent share year-to-date (YTD).

For a little more context, the GWM Ute’s standout May tally of 747 sales put it ahead of 4×4 versions of the Volkswagen Amarok (588), Toyota LandCruiser 70 (604), and supply-constrained LDV T60 (518).


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Chinese factory workers are paid a pittance compared to us, but to them it is a lot, because 20 years ago they earned nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think that you will find that the China average wage is a lot higher than you think.

Mercedes sell 50,000 cars per month in China. Tesla car sales in China was US $3.11 billion in the third quarter 2021.

Tesla is the company that everyone wants to work for. Engineers and software developers are moving from the big car group to Tesla because of the freedom from accountants, Tesla allow the engineers to design and invent rather than scrimp and save. There is a reason that Tesla did not suffer the chip shortage problem that every other manufacture has.

There are so many examples that I'd be typing here for an hour.

In simple terms, Tesla is where Ford was when they perfected the production line and took over the car world. Ford are more likely than not to survive the next 10 years, many others will not because they have left their development of EVs too late, and they have the added weigh of having to spend rare resources to keep combustion engine development until the near date of the ban on ICE vehicle in most of the developed world, including China.

Just have a look at the name of the investors buying Tesla shares, just about every major super fund and EFT.

_"Tesla’s competitive advantage comes as a result of its dedicated emphasis on research and development (R&D). In fact, many of its rivals have admitted that Tesla’s electronics far surpass their own—a teardown revealed that its batteries and AI chips are roughly six years ahead of other industry giants such as Toyota and Volkswagen." _Visual Capitalist





__





						Tesla Motors Announces Senior Engineering and Manufacturing Executives
					

SAN CARLOS, Calif.-Peter Rawlinson, Vice President and Chief Vehicle Engineer, is responsible for the technical execution and delivery of the Model S, and for leading a world-class vehicle engineering team. He led vehicle engineering at Corus Automotive, an advanced engineering consulting firm...




					www.tesla.com


----------



## rederob (9 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Even if Tesla is buying batteries from BYD (though I have not seen anything other than rumours to confirm this) this means nothing in regards to Tesla's battery advancement. Panasonic was building batteries for Tesla, under a Patent protection. Samsung build batteries for Apple under Patent.



BYD started as a company making mobile phone batteries, amongst other things, and is presently the 3rd largest battery manufacturer in the world.  Tesla will progressively move to LFP batteries for its standard range cars irrespective of supplier.  


JohnDe said:


> We are in an unknow, many of the big western governments and manufacturers have pulled back from China, still dealing with them but much more cautiously.



China has a stream of most of the world's major companies flowing to it, if they are not already there.  Tesla is the only automaker that exists independently in China, as all other automakers have had to enter into joint ventures with a Chinese partner.   That in part explains Chinese access to latest automotive technologies.


JohnDe said:


> Tesla have four gigafactories and plans to build more, the best China could do is to forcefully take over the China factory in the name of the people (communism).



BYD has 13 factories and plans to build many more, and presently has about 250000 employees on every continent except Africa (and Antarctica!).  Apart from BYD industry observers reckon that battery factories are going up at the rate of one a week at the moment.


JohnDe said:


> The only threat to Tesla is China claiming the factory and banning sales.



Tesla are fantastic, but they will have to rely on Shanghai to maintain a vehicle that remains affordable outside of America.
China has not done anything remotely close to America in terms of product bans that even extend beyond its national border.  I see this as counterproductive from the USA as China is now investing hundreds of billions to play catchup in the areas it previously relied on from outside.


JohnDe said:


> Tesla could end up going bankrupt, but at the moment they are making strong profits and they have two factories about to open and build cars for many untapped nations in Europe.



Won't happen in our lifetime.  Tesla are on a profit margin near 30% compared to 10% or less for legacy automakers who appear unable to ever pay off their debt.  
On the Chinese side of the equation the official line is that there needs to be mass consolidation in their auto industry as the +300 players is unsustainable.


JohnDe said:


> China is a threat but they know that their growth and prosperity is tied to the growth and prosperity of the rest of he world.



Not really.  If you want anything made fast and at scale, there is no viable option beyond China.  China's internal market economy is a long way off mature and will ultimately be much greater than the USA and Europe combined.  In 40 years time we might be saying the same about India.  Perhaps unless Elon Musk runs for President and turns America back into its former self.

While Tesla is in a league of its own in terms of EV automaking and its US-based charging infrastructure, it's biggest competition as I see it will come through styling and price competitiveness.  If I were Elon Musk I would not try to compete at the lower end of the market and instead improve the features of the present range so that the Mercs, Audis and BMWs of the world continue to look overpriced and underperforming.


----------



## sptrawler (9 December 2021)

@JohnDe I certainly hope you are right, the next 5 years will definitely confirm it one way or the other.


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## tonkatruck (9 December 2021)

Will always love my wagon, but what's the harm in owning a Tesla! lol


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## sptrawler (9 December 2021)

While on the subject of batteries, the federal Government has funded a company in Canberra to cycle home batteries, to record their performance over time. It has some interesting information.
The link below goes to the site, for those who are interested:




__





						Reports – Lithium Ion Battery Test Centre
					





					batterytestcentre.com.au


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## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

rederob said:


> BYD started as a company making mobile phone batteries, amongst other things, and is presently the 3rd largest battery manufacturer in the world.  Tesla will progressively move to LFP batteries for its standard range cars irrespective of supplier.




Is BYD supplying batteries o Tesla? I can find no credible source confirming any supply of batteries by BYD to Tesla. There is discussion and rumours.

*"*_On 11 Jun, MIIT officially published 7th batch of models enlisted in “New Energy Vehicles Recommended for Promotion and Application Catalog” and Tesla’s LFP Model 3 officially showed its face.

Worth noticing is that MIC (Made In China) model with LG Chem battery has battery density at 145 Wh/kg, while imported base Model 3 carrying Panasonic NMC has density at 153 Wh/kg....._*"* Moneyball


*"Tesla currently uses LFP batteries from Chinese battery maker CATL in the Standard Range vehicles it makes at Shanghai."* The Driven

"*Tesla To Buy 45 GWh Of LFP Batteries From CATL*
_Citing a post by 36kr, Chinese website CnEVPost says Tesla has agreed to buy 45 GWh of lithium-iron-phosphate batteries from CATL to meet its expected demand for the Model 3 and Model Y in 2022. The Model 3 and Model Y are currently available with LFP batteries in their standard range versions, with the former having a 55 kWh battery and the latter a 60 kWh battery._*"*








						Tesla To Buy 45 GWh Of LFP Batteries From CATL
					

Tesla and CATL have struck a deal for 45 GWh of LFP batteries and are talking about more.




					cleantechnica.com


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)

LG Chem was the leading lithium-ion battery maker in between January and August 2020 with a market share of just around *26.5 percent*. CATL ranked second with a market share of some 25.8 percent, followed by Panasonic with a market share of about 20.6 percent.









						Lithium ion batteries - main manufacturers 2021 | Statista
					

The China-based CATL was the leading lithium-ion battery maker in 2021 with a market share of 32.5 percent.




					www.statista.com


----------



## JohnDe (9 December 2021)




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## Value Collector (9 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Is BYD supplying batteries o Tesla? I can find no credible source confirming any supply of batteries by BYD to Tesla. There is discussion and rumours.
> 
> *"*_On 11 Jun, MIIT officially published 7th batch of models enlisted in “New Energy Vehicles Recommended for Promotion and Application Catalog” and Tesla’s LFP Model 3 officially showed its face.
> 
> ...



Not sure, last I heard was their battery manufacturing was contracted to Panasonic, LG Chem and there was a Chinese company but I can't remember their name, being a Berkshire Hathaway share holder I would have probably remembered them mentioning BYD if I had heard it.

Of course Tesla is also ramping up their owned and operated battery facility too, but with such fast growth they need as many companies producing batteries as they can.

The highest Tech battery they have in their range are the ones they are going to be producing them selves, but they will be using all the batteries they can buy too, because they have so many vehicles and storage devices hitting the market.


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## rederob (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> View attachment 134014



Yes, you seem to be right.
I relied on a Google search result  and the linked info was dated 2 December 2021:


A number of things I learned when digging deeper was that Lithium ternary batteries presently prevail over LFP in gross output; that BYD may be the only large manufacturer of LFP at the moment; and, that this space has changed the manufacturer's list order regularly over the past 5 years.  Ford even has aspirations to be in the top ten by 2030!


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## qldfrog (10 December 2021)

Not too recent article 2019 shared from FMG thread








						The "New Energy Economy": An Exercise in Magical Thinking | Manhattan Institute
					

Progressive policymakers promote the idea that America is on the verge of a green revolution that will eliminate hydrocarbon use within the near future—but in reality, this is not possible.




					www.manhattan-institute.org
				



The part about the storage capacity of the total Tesla megafactory batteries vs total grid usage in US is scary if true.
And this is before moving to EVs


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## qldfrog (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> While on the subject of batteries, the federal Government has funded a company in Canberra to cycle home batteries, to record their performance over time. It has some interesting information.
> The link below goes to the site, for those who are interested:
> 
> 
> ...



This is VERY interesting,go past the executive summary.
The 🐸 overall review: most have serious issues needing replacement which is not great in term of having one at home.
Disappointed by Tesla..decent robustness but capacity falling imho too fast ..so not that great for cars in future?
Redflow technology looking great as capacity seems quite constant but heaps of issues..so could be wonderful if mature.
A  must read i think for purchasers


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## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Yes, you seem to be right.
> I relied on a Google search result  and the linked info was dated 2 December 2021:
> 
> A number of things I learned when digging deeper was that Lithium ternary batteries presently prevail over LFP in gross output; that BYD may be the only large manufacturer of LFP at the moment; and, that this space has changed the manufacturer's list order regularly over the past 5 years.  Ford even has aspirations to be in the top ten by 2030!




Google is a very useful tool, it is also too loyal and will learn your search preferences and then give you the finds in the order that is organised for your preferences.
When am researching I try to find multiple sources and I rephrase question. I have also found that I get different results using a Microsoft PC and an Apple iMac, the iMac security is tighter and Google can’t track my searches as well as on the PC.


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## qldfrog (10 December 2021)

Renault Zoe electric car receives zero-star safety rating
					

The model – which was sold in Australia between 2017 and 2020 – is just the third vehicle ever to earn zero stars for safety.




					www.drive.com.au
				



Outch
 dead..but the green way


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## mullokintyre (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Google is a very useful tool, it is also too loyal and will learn your search preferences and then give you the finds in the order that is organised for your preferences.
> When am researching I try to find multiple sources and I rephrase question. I have also found that I get different results using a Microsoft PC and an Apple iMac, the iMac security is tighter and Google can’t track my searches as well as on the PC.



Google is a marketing tool.
It will organise "finds" based on maximizing their returns from advertisers.
If users get some sort of benefit, its an accident.
Mick


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## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Google is a marketing tool.
> It will organise "finds" based on maximizing their returns from advertisers.
> If users get some sort of benefit, its an accident.
> Mick




It is getting harder but if you know how to use it as a tool Google is still useful.
Just need to dig deeper than we once had to. Change the wording and block some of the trackers.
As I mentioned before, the Apple software seems to reduce Googles tracking a bit better than most. I seem to get better resources from my search when using the iMac over my PC. It takes me longer to sift through the information Google gives me on the PC, but it is all there if you look & re/check.


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## rederob (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Google is a very useful tool, it is also too loyal and will learn your search preferences and then give you the finds in the order that is organised for your preferences.
> When am researching I try to find multiple sources and I rephrase question. I have also found that I get different results using a Microsoft PC and an Apple iMac, the iMac security is tighter and Google can’t track my searches as well as on the PC.



Part of the problem is also finding only apples to compare.
Take the chart below which is *only about battery supply to the NEV market* for the first 5 months of 2021:


Note BYD has only 5.5GWh deployed.  Yet their year to November data shows installed capacity of 32.8GWh, but that number includes large storage as well.
Another point about BYD:
_"__BYD Co__., the Chinese carmaker backed by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway, reported a strong showing, with its total November sales about equal to that of Tesla Inc., Nio Inc., Li Auto Inc. and Xpeng Inc. combined." _​What's remarkable about BYD is that less than 5% of its vehicles have to date been sold outside China (November sales of over 90k NEVs).  But that changes in 2022 as the door to Europe just opened and they are now focusing on half their fleet sales for export.  
Here's where I think Tesla should stick to its knitting and let other automakers do what they do best:


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## Humid (10 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Do you want to visit that smelter once in the life of your vehicle, or every week for the vehicles life, because as I said before we know making battery materials has an impact, but you only have to mine the battery materials once, and then they can be almost endlessly recycled, where as the oil you burn is refined every week.



Nah just 14 x12 hour shifts is plenty


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## Humid (10 December 2021)

If you ever get a real job a rule of thumb is if the stack is really high they are pumping out some bad $hit


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## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Part of the problem is also finding only apples to compare.




True, that's why when I searched I used multiple descriptions for my search. I also searched for 'largest battery manufacturer by ranking' and ' largest EV battery manufacturer by ranking', as well as a few other descriptions. 

If you look at my posts on the previous page you will find that I included two links, one with the ranking of the largest  overall battery manufacturers and the other with EV battery manufacturers. both did not include BYD in the top 3.


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## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

Humid said:


> If you ever get a real job a rule of thumb is if the stack is really high they are pumping out some bad $hit




That reminds me of when my partner & I back packed through Europe in the early 1990's, after a few days in London we were blowing black soot out of our noses.

It's a shame that people don't realise that vehicle exhaust is invisible and mostly odourless but full of stuff that's not good for your lungs and is easily passed into the blood stream.

European countries are slowly banning ICE vehicles from their busy city centres.


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## divs4ever (10 December 2021)

the black soot will not go away soon BECAUSE a lot of it is degraded tyre particles   with a little help from degraded brake pads/linings 

 and that was known in the  days of crude ( non catalytic ) mufflers  only leaded petrol   and hardly anyone had electronically tuned engines 

 HOWEVER it is not the black soot  that is the problem ( unless you are a cleaner ) there are other unhealthy things in vehicle exhausts  ( and carbon dioxide was still plant 'oxygen' way back then as well )

 now EVs can be a positive move forward ( even though they have  a 100 years of wasted opportunities to have done so  ) but progressing the agenda on junk science ??

 how can that be inspiring or true progress


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## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> This is VERY interesting,go past the executive summary.
> The 🐸 overall review: most have serious issues needing replacement which is not great in term of having one at home.
> Disappointed by Tesla..decent robustness but capacity falling imho too fast ..so not that great for cars in future?
> Redflow technology looking great as capacity seems quite constant but heaps of issues..so could be wonderful if mature.
> A  must read i think for purchasers



Yes I didn't want to make any observations, but the oldest son has been monitoring the tests since their inception, changed from originally going to go flow batteries to now going with BYD.
The system gets installed next month, so ASF will have its own actual off grid system, to be able to follow in real time, with a family of 5 including 3 kids ranging from ,9_13. 
It should be interesting.lol


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## rederob (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> True, that's why when I searched I used multiple descriptions for my search. I also searched for 'largest battery manufacturer by ranking' and ' largest EV battery manufacturer by ranking', as well as a few other descriptions.
> 
> If you look at my posts on the previous page you will find that I included two links, one with the ranking of the largest  overall battery manufacturers and the other with EV battery manufacturers. both did not include BYD in the top 3.



I get that John, but did you know that this link of yours only used *data *for January to end- April 2021?
The link I went to was a vehicle industry portal that needs a log-in and subscription to access more detailed  info, and was supposed to reflect the situation at December.  Just remember that CATL's production increased 3400% (not a typo)  from 2016 to 2020, so given BYD's explosive NEV sales this year, getting to number 3 is not improbable.

The rate of change in the NEV space is spectacular, and more than anything it's what I want to discuss.  No doubt from month to month we will see players come and go in their rankings as new car models are released and the cheaper LFP batteries lower vehicle purchase prices.  What I have been more curious about in this regard is the role chips have played.  Clearly legacy auto has been affected, but for some inexplicable reason the Chinese EV sector has powered ahead.  Several months ago I watched a Chinese YouTube site and from the subtitles it was clear that a number of the Chinese automakers were partnering with Chinese chip producers using a larger platform size, rather than the nanochips used by the likes of Tesla etc. .  Their thinking was that they could get the functionality they needed for the most common driver needs, (but not autonomous driving and a few other things that were relatively trivial unless you had lidar and more cameras and sensors you could poke a stick at) so went with that.


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## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

rederob said:


> I get that John, but did you know that this link of yours only used *data *for January to end- April 2021?
> The link I went to was a vehicle industry portal that needs a log-in and subscription to access more detailed  info, and was supposed to reflect the situation at December.  Just remember that CATL's production increased 3400% (not a typo)  from 2016 to 2020, so given BYD's explosive NEV sales this year, getting to number 3 is not improbable.




I'm not sure what you mean. The data I show dated April 2021 is out of date? But your data which shows "*% growth, 2016 to 2020*" proves that BYD is the worlds number 3 battery manufacturer?

Possible and probable is not factual. 

I am currently investing in the EV and related industries, I need more facts than probabilities.


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## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I didn't want to make any observations, but the oldest son has been monitoring the tests since their inception, changed from originally going to go flow batteries to now going with BYD.
> The system gets installed next month, so ASF will have its own actual off grid system, to be able to follow in real time, with a family of 5 including 3 kids ranging from ,9_13.
> It should be interesting.lol




LFP & NCM batteries have differing advantages and disadvantages. 

LFP can be charged to 100% every time, NCM (with the right software) is best suited to 90% charge and the occasional 100% charge. NCM will hold more energy than an equivalent sized LFP.

Tesla found this out a while ago and is why they use LFP in the standard model M3, while reserving the NCM battery for the long range (LP) and performance (P) models. Weight is similar but the range is very different.

_"NCM battery features higher power rating and energy density compared to LFP battery due to its higher lithium diffusion rate and....."









						This is why NCM is the preferable Cathode material for Li-ion batteries - LG Battery Blog Europe
					

In the past months, we often saw questions about whether NCM (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide) is the best material for being used as cathode




					lghomebatteryblog.eu
				



_


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## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

rederob said:


> What I have been more curious about in this regard is the role chips have played.  Clearly legacy auto has been affected, but for some inexplicable reason the Chinese EV sector has powered ahead.  Several months ago I watched a Chinese YouTube site and from the subtitles it was clear that a number of the Chinese automakers were partnering with Chinese chip producers using a larger platform size, rather than the nanochips used by the likes of Tesla etc. .  Their thinking was that they could get the functionality they needed for the most common driver needs, (but not autonomous driving and a few other things that were relatively trivial unless you had lidar and more cameras and sensors you could poke a stick at) so went with that.



That is an interesting point, in reality a vehicle has a lot of "dead" space, so chip size isn't so much an issue as it is in say a smart phone.
It would be interesting if the Chinese are going off in a different direction and are actually heading toward a new design paradigm, from my understanding most cars have a central ecu, which interrogates satellite modules.


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## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

_*Tesla Inc.’s shift to less expensive batteries for its electric vehicles is expected to shake the global battery industry.*
Oct 22, 2021

The world’s top EV maker said on Oct. 21 that it is installing lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries to all of its standard-range EVs. The move is likely to intensify competition between Chinese battery producers such as CATL and BYD that manufacturers LFP cells and South Korean makers that focus on nickel-cobalt-manganese (NCM) batteries.

The LFP batteries’ global market shares rose to 24.1% in the first half of this year from 14.8% a year earlier, according to market tracker SNE Research, on surging sales of the Tesla Model 3 and the Hongguang MINI EV in China. On the other hand, market shares of NCM622 and NCM523 – common NCM types – fell to 22% and 16% from 22.5% and 19.4%, respectively, during the period.

LFP cells with shorter mileage have been mainly used in China due to lower prices. The industry expected NCM batteries with high energy density to become the trend for EVs that requires longer mileage and a shorter charging time.

LG Chem Ltd. and POSCO Chemical Co. also said they are actively mulling business on LFP cathode materials to diversify their product portfolio rather than to focus only on NCM batteries.

“Nobody is producing LFP batteries in Korea, but nobody can ignore the strength of low costs of LFP,” said an industry source. “It is a key to secure price competitiveness in order to beat Chinese players.”

NCM BATTERIES TO WIN IN LONG TERM

Despite the recent popularity of LFP cells, demand for NCM batteries is expected to rise in the longer term. It is hard to improve LFP cells’ energy density due to the limitation of materials.

Samsung SDI Co. and LG Energy Solution did not consider LFP battery production. They decided to produce high-nickel NCM batteries or nickel, cobalt and aluminum (NCA) batteries. They also aimed to cut costs to lower than $100/kWh and increase mileage.

CATL was also known to plan to raise NCM battery production in the longer term.

NCM batteries’ price competitiveness is expected to improve from around 2027 when the current battery lifespan of eight to ten years is over and the battery recycling business is expected to grow, analysts said.

Tesla also said the energy density of LFP cells cannot reach the level of NCM batteries’ density, expecting the latter to most rapidly grow in the next one to two decades. LFP batteries will be used for cheaper EVs with short mileage, it said.

The global battery market is expected to be divided into two sectors – NCM batteries for medium and high-end EVs and LFP cells for low-end models._









						Tesla’s shift to LFP cells to shake global battery industry - KED Global
					

The Tesla Model 3 Tesla Inc.’s shift to less expensive batteries for its electric vehicles is expected to shake the global battery industry.The world&rsq



					www.kedglobal.com


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> LFP & NCM batteries have differing advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> LFP can be charged to 100% every time, NCM (with the right software) is best suited to 90% charge and the occasional 100% charge. NCM will hold more energy than an equivalent sized LFP.
> 
> ...



Yes, I also think with the natural advantage NCM has over LFP, that sector has been sitting on its hands somewhat and living on the legacy of the 18650.
Now that the LFP energy density has been improved to within about 60% of NMC, there may be a spur to renew the R&D in the NMC space, which is what I'm hoping happens.
There is nothing like competition to drive ingenuity.
But it is also why I sold down a lot of my NMT, IMO no point in not locking in a profit when the court is out on which way is the best way forward, there won't be a big call for battery recycling if the recovered metals are worthless.


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## divs4ever (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is an interesting point, in reality a vehicle has a lot of "dead" space, so chip size isn't so much an issue as it is in say a smart phone.
> It would be interesting if the Chinese are going off in a different direction and are actually heading toward a new design paradigm, from my understanding most cars have a central ecu, which interrogates satellite modules.



 now i don't focus on computers as much as  a few years  back  but several CPU technologies  have the potential to be quite flexible  for  example AMD were  putting an impressive graphics processor inside the CPU which might not seem so fantastic until you realize that could also be a high quality maths processor  instead .

 and yes even back then China was working on it's own silicon  ( and don't forget Japan  they still have some solid skills 

 with China i think Jack Ma  said it best  China has one billion brains  to help solve a problem  ( so they could successfully find and perfect that paradigm  if they chose to )


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## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

rederob said:
What I have been more curious about in this regard is the role chips have played. Clearly legacy auto has been affected, but for some inexplicable reason the Chinese EV sector has powered ahead. Several months ago I watched a Chinese YouTube site and from the subtitles it was clear that a number of the Chinese automakers were partnering with Chinese chip producers using a larger platform size, rather than the nanochips used by the likes of Tesla etc. . Their thinking was that they could get the functionality they needed for the most common driver needs, (but not autonomous driving and a few other things that were relatively trivial unless you had lidar and more cameras and sensors you could poke a stick at) so went with that.


sptrawler said:


> That is an interesting point, in reality a vehicle has a lot of "dead" space, so chip size isn't so much an issue as it is in say a smart phone.
> It would be interesting if the Chinese are going off in a different direction and are actually heading toward a new design paradigm, from my understanding most cars have a central ecu, which interrogates satellite modules.




Any other source besides a YouTube video?

The largest EV manufacturer (by a longshot) is Tesla and they are the ones that had very little issue with chips, because -

_"*Tesla rewrote its own software to survive the chip shortage*_
_Jul 26, 2021
The company was able to swap substitute chips after rewriting its firmware

Tesla is weathering the global chip shortage by rewriting its vehicle software to support alternative chips, CEO Elon Musk said during an earnings call Monday. The shortage has upended the auto industry at a time of historic demand for new cars, leading to factory shutdowns, longer wait times, and higher prices.

“We were able to substitute alternative chips, and then write the firmware in a matter of weeks,” Musk said. “It’s not just a matter of swapping out a chip; you also have to rewrite the software.”

This approach has helped Tesla maintain high levels of production, delivering over 200,000 vehicles to customers over the course of the last three months, the company said. Tesla generated $11.9 billion in revenue in the quarter, including $1.1 billion in profit._

_Tesla isn’t alone in feeling the effects of the global shortage. With demand for cars at an all-time high, automakers around the world are feeling the constraints of production with chips in short supply. This week, Daimler and BMW said the lack of chips has forced it to shutdown some of their assembly lines, which will cut the companies’ output by tens of thousands of vehicles."_

Tesla is now actively preparing to produce their own chipsets.









						Tesla rewrote its own software to survive the chip shortage
					

"The global chip shortage situation remains quite serious."




					www.theverge.com


----------



## Value Collector (10 December 2021)

Humid said:


> View attachment 134026
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks pretty tame compared to a lot of oil refineries, they have some pretty tall stacks too, and because they are producing fuel needed daily to operate vehicles, rather than recyclable building materials needed once, there is 100’s of refineries.


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## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> * with China i think Jack Ma  said it best,  China has one billion brains  to help solve a problem*  ( so they could successfully find and perfect that paradigm  if they chose to )



That pretty well sums it up IMO and they all work for the same company, whichever one moves ahead will have to share its knowledge with the others I would guess.

With Japan and Korea, I would guess the yanks are hoping they will keep them, ahead of the game. Because it has moved to degree away from just a throw money at it issue, to an R & D issue, which the West has outsourced with its manufacturing.
The West has very little R&D facilities and tend nowadays to focus on an existing process improvement e.g software improvements, very little is actually designed from the ground up in the West anymore.
It's a bit like the HZR announcement today, the high pressure heat treated furnace that is being manufactured in China has flaws, my appollogies very sorry, we try again.
If it was made here, as in the old days it would have been over engineered in the first place, but it would have cost more, well who knows what  the delays will cost. Ah the clever country.


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## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> The largest EV manufacturer (by a longshot) is Tesla and they are the ones that had very little issue with chips, because -
> 
> _"*Tesla rewrote its own software to survive the chip shortage*_
> _Jul 26, 2021
> ...



Which is why the legacy automakers will be having so much trouble, I would guess they may be incorporating as much of their Ice electronics as possible to reduce costs, but in reality it all becomes a hinderance.
The Chinese have the advantage of having the Tesla factory and there is no better way of keeping an eye on your competition, than building their product for them, only a thought.
A bit like if Tesla built a factory in Germany and asked BMW, VW and Merc to operate it for them, only a thought.


----------



## rederob (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. The data I show dated April 2021 is out of date? But your data which shows "*% growth, 2016 to 2020*" proves that BYD is the worlds number 3 battery manufacturer?
> 
> Possible and probable is not factual.
> 
> I am currently investing in the EV and related industries, I need more facts than probabilities.



Your chart graphic was based off 4 months data - Jan to end-April.  However it actually showed the percentage change over the same 4 months in 2020, as you can see here:


I used an industry site with information for the year to December.  I could not access their data as I am not a paid subscriber, so I don't know why they placed BYD third, but they did.
I used the CATL percentage change of 3400% to show how quickly the NEV scene changes, not BYD data.
My previously posted table *here *may be more accurate, but I cannot be sure.
So based on the Chinese language table above and the fact that BYD sold only 15% of their cars in the period to April, the question is did the other 85% lead to them overtaking Panasonic in the period to December?
 I am not aware if data is freely available to be definitive, so without it I am simply saying it was not impossible for BYD to catch up. Perhaps you can actually stump up with enough apples to compare, as until then the jury is out or, in your parlance, "I need more facts."


JohnDe said:


> Any other source besides a YouTube video?



*Yes*
*BYD* makes its own chips.


----------



## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Which is why the legacy automakers will be having so much trouble, I would guess they may be incorporating as much of their Ice electronics as possible to reduce costs, but in reality it all becomes a hinderance.
> The Chinese have the advantage of having the Tesla factory and there is no better way of keeping an eye on your competition, than building their product for them, only a thought.
> A bit like if Tesla built a factory in Germany and asked BMW, VW and Merc to operate it for them, only a thought.




Not sure what you mean by that. 

It doesn't matter where a business is located if it is important enough there will be industrial spy's. However, there are ways to protect intellectual property and business secrets. 

Where China got a leg up in the industrial and technical world was by allowing companies to set up in China on condition that the Chinese government becomes part owner of the factory. 

Tesla did not have to comply with that rule. This makes it much easier to protect their intellectual property.

_Tesla’s Gigafactory 3 in Shanghai is 100% owned by Tesla, an American company, and this is an incredibly big deal. “I think that something that’s quite noteworthy here is Tesla’s the only foreign manufacturer to have a 100% owned factory in China,”_









						Tesla's 100% American Owned Factory In China Is A Big Deal
					

Tesla's factory in China is 100% owned by Tesla and is the only foreign owned factory in China--this is is a big deal and here's why.




					cleantechnica.com


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Not sure what you mean by that.
> 
> It doesn't matter where a business is located if it is important enough there will be industrial spy's. However, there are ways to protect intellectual property and business secrets.
> 
> ...



I guess so. 
Do they use a fly in fly out workforce?


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> The part about the storage capacity of the total Tesla megafactory batteries vs total grid usage in US is scary if true.
> And this is before moving to EVs



Batteries in their present form are great for_ power_, terrible for _energy_.

For those not familiar with correct terms there, power is the equivalent of how fast you are going or how much you are paid per hour of work whilst energy could be compared to the distance you have travelled or how much you have earned in total.

According to this: https://electrek.co/2020/11/24/tesla-first-battery-cell-factory-produce-up-to-250-gwh/

Present world production capacity is about 250 GWh per annum and demand will reach 2000 GWh per annum by 2030. That's global.

Putting that into perspective, Tasmania's hydro system stores nominally 14,400 GWh if filled to 100% and that's based on conservative engineering assumptions - a bit more can be squeezed out in an emergency if desperately needed.

Over the past 24 hours total energy for Australia's NEM and SWIS systems, which combined are the power grids serving the vast majority of Australia's population and industry, generated 629 GWh.

So batteries work nicely for peak power and they're good enough to power cars and so on but they're nowhere near economic for bulk energy storage, something which hydro does vastly cheaper and with comparable technical efficiency.

Hence on the power grid side well AEMO's dropping the bomb publicly today with the updated Integrated System Plan. In short as a very brief summary:

Total electricity load up 100% by 2050 at a minimum. Under some scenarios that growth is 300%

Coal gone completely by 2040 and most of it well before then. Victorian coal industry gone completely by 2032

Massive scaling up of wind farms in particular. Also solar farms and rooftop solar.

*EV's projected to be 58% of the total vehicle fleet in 2040*

Net zero by 2050 with electricity sector emissions almost gone by 2040

Most short duration storage from batteries - households, EV's and grid batteries

Deep storage is vital to the whole plan and that's large scale hydro not batteries

Extensive new transmission projects needed 

Time is the big risk. There's a lot to get done, some of which takes years to build, and not a lot of time in which to do it.

It's intentionally a non-political plan but it does ultimately rip the rug out from under all political parties to some extent and lays bare the brutal reality of the energy situation, the transition required and the extreme urgency of it after years of delays due to politics.

For those on the far Right - net zero is a goer yes, there's no future in coal indeed it's closing completely and permanently. Petrol, diesel and gas are ultimately going too.

For those to the far Left - hydro, wind farms and transmission are all part of the future so it's time to learn to love them.

That's a major body of work and announcement from AEMO today, it's not simply my personal opinion.


----------



## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I guess so.
> Do they use a fly in fly out workforce?




I am naive when it comes to stealing design technology from a automotive factory. I do believe that it would not be easy, otherwise we would see it on the roads, and I also know that companies reverse engineer their competitions products. Ford Australia did it with the BMW X5, purchased two and stripped them down to help design the Ford Territory.


----------



## Humid (10 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Looks pretty tame compared to a lot of oil refineries, they have some pretty tall stacks too, and because they are producing fuel needed daily to operate vehicles, rather than recyclable building materials needed once, there is 100’s of refineries.
> 
> View attachment 134036



Agree %100 but the bit where you claim that bhp nickel dont despoil the air was my point.
If you have ever worked in nickel you will never forget the smell


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 December 2021)

Humid said:


> If you have ever worked in nickel you will never forget the smell



What exactly is being emitted?

Sulfur dioxide?


----------



## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Batteries in their present form are great for_ power_, terrible for _energy_.




What about torque?

EVs eat ICE for breakfast












						Here's why electric cars have plenty of grunt, oomph and torque
					

Electric motors are used in everything from utes to mining trucks – because they pack plenty of oomph.




					theconversation.com


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I am naive when it comes to stealing design technology from a automotive factory. I do believe that it would not be easy, otherwise we would see it on the roads, and I also know that companies reverse engineer their competitions products. Ford Australia did it with the BMW X5, purchased two and stripped them down to help design the Ford Territory.



The only thing that wouldn't be easy is the software, but we aren't talking automotive here BEV's really aren't 'automotive' as we know it, we are talking an electrical distributive control systems operating electric motors, there are no radiators, clutches, gearboxes, driveshafts, differentials etc. there are a one or two electric motors being driven by probably a thyrister speed contoller
This isn't new by any means and is used in all sorts of industries, so any initial gains tesla have had by being ahead of the curve, will very quickly be chased down, all they have to do is find out what the Tesla can do then write code to replicate it.
It is a bit like Apple and Microsoft, they both do an excellent job, to think either is going to leave the other in it's wake would be a risky assumption.
The problem the legacy manufacturers have that Tesla doesn't, is the same as the established electrical power generators have, they have to support old technology while trying to also develop new technology, new entrants in the field don't have that baggage.
The Chinese don't have the problem either, because they are under authoritarian control, the greater good comes before the business outcome. So my guess is all ICE development and funding has stopped and all resources are being focused on BEV, they might not catch up with Tesla, but I wouldn't be prepared to put money on it.


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> What about torque?
> 
> EVs eat ICE for breakfast
> 
> ...



That's nice, but what has that got to do with what @Smurf1976 said, you are comparing motor.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> What about torque?
> 
> EVs eat ICE for breakfast



Absolutely, no argument there.

My comment was specifically about batteries however, responding to another which noted the global manufacturing capacity and compared it to overall electricity use and in that context batteries are still very limited. They're good enough for cars but they won't hold the electricity grid up during a week of cloudy weather without much wind. 

That is, they're a great source of peak power and mobile storage but not for bulk energy storage.

So it depends on the application.

Back to the AEMO ISP though, some scenarios do put EV's at up to 99% of the fleet by 2050 and even the lowest one puts it at 36%.

Whilst the ISP is about the power grid not EV's specifically, I've mentioned it here since it crosses over. First because EV's are a big part of the changes going forward driving higher total electricity use and second because arguments against EV's on the basis that they're using power from coal simply aren't going to be valid since coal's near its end regardless.

So it's sort-of separate but not really, the two are joined in many ways in practice. The ability to use renewable energy being one motivator for EV's in the first place and at the same time, having EV's makes it easier to deploy renewable energy. So they're tied together at least partially.


----------



## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That's nice, but what has that got to do with what @Smurf1976 said, you are comparing motor.




I got confused with the threads topic - 
Electric cars​


----------



## rederob (10 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Batteries in their present form are great for_ power_, terrible for _energy_.
> 
> For those not familiar with correct terms there, power is the equivalent of how fast you are going or how much you are paid per hour of work whilst energy could be compared to the distance you have travelled or how much you have earned in total.
> 
> ...



First, hydrogen was not mentioned in your post.
Second, there is no way on present trend the NEV take up will be as low as AEMO report.  Unless there is something we presently do not know, by 2030 ICE manufacture will cease except for very, very small niche markets.  By 2040 residual ownership of ICE vehicles will be in the single digits.
Third battery technologies are still nascent, so this sector will only get more efficient and effective over time.
Fourth, dams don't fill overnight, so as batteries accumulate so will capacity.
Fifth, an essential element of intermittent energy is a requirement to build significant excess capacity in order to accommodate deficient output *and *have storage mediums available to it.  This latter aspect is a huge field (eg., gravity or flow batteries, hydrogen gas or solid state, flywheels, thermal materials, pumped hydro,  and compressed air)  that has not really needed tapping because we have more than adequate FF backup.
My thinking is that hydrogen will be the biggest winner because a lot of the northern hemisphere is already configured to "gas" so there is a framework and familiarity.  However, there's so much happening on the technological side of things that maybe something else will beat everything I have listed.


----------



## rederob (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I got confused with the threads topic -
> Electric cars​



Leads to a plug for
*ELECTRICTY.

*


----------



## Value Collector (10 December 2021)

Humid said:


> Agree %100 but the bit where you claim that bhp nickel dont despoil the air was my point.
> If you have ever worked in nickel you will never forget the smell



What I said was in response to another forum member who was claiming that mining battery materials have a larger impact than oil drilling and refining, what I said was in the context to the claim he was making, I said this.
*if you take a look at BHP nickel mine for example, they aren’t despoiling rivers and the air as you claim*

Meaning it isn’t creating bigger impact than the tech it is replacing, I actually said we all know it has an impact, I wasn’t saying there is no impact.

As I pointed out, oil refineries exist in most cities, BHP’s nickel mine is a global asset.


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

IMO hydrogen will be the biggest because of energy density, versatility, ease of manufacture and absolutely no residual waste.
Once we can get the production cost down, it will be the perfect fuel IMO.


----------



## Humid (10 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> What I said was in response to another forum member who was claiming that mining battery materials have a larger impact than oil drilling and refining, what I said was in the context to the claim he was making, I said this.
> *if you take a look at BHP nickel mine for example, they aren’t despoiling rivers and the air as you claim*
> 
> Meaning it isn’t creating bigger impact than the tech it is replacing, I actually said we all know it has an impact, I wasn’t saying there is no impact.
> ...



Just not Australian ones anymore


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 December 2021)

rederob said:


> there is no way on present trend the NEV take up will be as low as AEMO report. Unless there is something we presently do not know, by 2030 ICE manufacture will cease except for very, very small niche markets. By 2040 residual ownership of ICE vehicles will be in the single digits.



Average lifespan of a car in Australia is about 20 years. For heavy rigid trucks it's about 30 years.

So 5 - 10% of the 2040 car fleet, and a third of the heavy rigid truck fleet, has already been manufactured and runs on diesel / petrol.

Bearing in mind that ICE's are still being manufactured, and still account for the overwhelming majority of new vehicle sales, it's a given that they'll still be a substantial portion of the fleet in 2040.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I got confused with the threads topic -
> Electric cars​



Main reason I've referred to the AEMO ISP is that whilst EV's aren't its main focus it's a credible document, one that does have serious implications in the broader sense, and it dispels the biggest myths around whether or not this is happening.

It's quite clear - it's happening in the near future and the often cited argument against EV's that they're powered by coal simply isn't likely to be the case in practice.

It'll take a long time for them to disappear from the roads completely but the days of seeing new ICE cars in showrooms are nearing their end. A point is fast approaching where if you say you're buying a new car, nobody will ask if it's electric much like today if you said you're buying a new phone nobody asks if it's a mobile. Of course it is.


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> it's a given that they'll still be a substantial portion of the fleet in 2040.



By 2040, who knows what will be available.
In 2000, no one would have guessed, we would be where we are today.


----------



## rederob (10 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Bearing in mind that ICE's are still being manufactured, and still account for the overwhelming majority of new vehicle sales, it's a given that they'll still be a substantial portion of the fleet in 2040.



That assumes many things.
First average car ownership is about 10 years, while about 30% of vehicles are less than 5 years old.
Next, why would you drive anything less safe and more expensive to operate, assuming their fuels were readily available, which is also unlikely.
Solar farms quickly sold off original panels as more efficient panels came onto the market and were half the price.
Apart from petrol heads I reckon the only other people owning ICE vehicles in 2040 will be those who were unable to buy an NEV due to supply.


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

Not particularily E.V related, but something to be aware of once the media blab it all over the airwaves, it isn't long before the muppets go "why didn't I think of that?
You guys with the expensive cars, keep the eyes peeled.


----------



## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> By 2040, who knows what will be available.
> In 2000, no one would have guessed, we would be where we are today.




In relation to cars, pretty much all that is happening 
now in the automotive world was was being discussed and developed 20+ years ago.
Unless you’re a mad automotive enthusiast or involved in the industry you’d be lucky to know 10% of what was coming.
I am both, in the industry & a car nut with my father’s help from also being in the industry.
What currently being introduced in the automotive world doesn’t surprise me, because I’ve seen it at technical seminars, trade shows, and read about it in the motoring journals for over 20 years .What surprises me is that has taken most by surprise and a few are fighting it with megaphones & toothpicks.


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> In relation to cars, pretty much all that is happening now in the automotive world was was being discussed and developed 20+ years ago.
> Unless you’re a mad automotive enthusiast or involved in the industry you’d be lucky to know 10% of what was coming.
> I am both, in the industry & a car nut with my father’s help from also being in the industry.
> What is happening is currently being introduced doesn’t surprise me, because I’ve seen it at the seminars and read about it in the journals during for over 20 years, what surprises me is that has taken most by surprise and a few are fighting it with megaphones & toothpicks.



Well for all that foreknowledge available 20+ years ago, all I can say is the legacy manufacturers, have certainly been caught flat footed by Tesla.
A bit like the K.O'd heavyweight saying, "I knew that was coming", as he drags his ar$e off the canvas.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 December 2021)

rederob said:


> First average car ownership is about 10 years



Average age of a car but lifespan is about double that.

Just as the average Australian is 37 years old but average lifespan is ~80.



rederob said:


> why would you drive anything less safe and more expensive to operate, assuming their fuels were readily available, which is also unlikely.




Much the same reason cars are roughly 20 years showroom to wreckers today. 

They're an expensive purchase and a large portion of the population simply can't afford to not get full life out of them. Hence most cars end up with more than one owner - someone with more money buys it new then sells it to someone with less money who may well then later sell it to someone with even less money.

Barring a war etc, fuel should still be available so long as there's substantial demand for it. For example LPG consumption for automotive use in 2020-21 was just 353 ML which compares with petrol at 16,005 ML and diesel at 30,183 ML (noting that includes petrol and diesel for non-road uses although in the case of petrol it's mostly sold via the same distribution network, that is service stations, anyway).

Despite that low consumption of LPG, which has fallen 82.5% over the past decade, it's still sufficiently available to make it usable as a transport fuel. Perhaps not for much longer, it's in terminal decline and service stations are now removing it, but it has clearly been viable to supply at just a few % of the vehicle fleet.  

Based on the LPG experience, petrol sales would need to drop well over 90% from present levels for it to cease being viable to maintain availability.


----------



## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well for all that foreknowledge available 20+ years ago, all I can say is the legacy manufacturers, have certainly been caught flat footed by Tesla.
> A bit like the K.O'd heavyweight saying, "I knew that was coming", as he drags his ar$e off the canvas.




A GM CEO saw it coming and put in process a plan, spent a lot of R&D dollars to develop a EV that was ground breaking. And then management and share holders scrapped it to chase the easy money coming from existing technology and cheap existing manufacturers and oil. It paid off for a few years but look at GM now.

Consumers have been conned for the past 20 or 30 years, we’ve been sold cheap automotive technology at ridiculously high prices. Remember the XF Falcon, the plastic bumpers fell off, the CClass Mercedes from the 1990’s, leaked like a sieve, the BMW 3 series during the early 2000’s had to have the intake valves cleaned with walnut blasting every 12 months.

They all failed because they tried to build environmentally safe and fuel efficient cars at bargain basement prices to sell at high profit margins for as long as possible while the good times where around. Now they have been caught sleeping at the wheel and are trying to recover from the crash.


----------



## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

Not sure if this has been printed here before - 


All Our Patent Are Belong To You​Elon Musk, CEOJune 12, 2014
Yesterday, there was a wall of Tesla patents in the lobby of our Palo Alto headquarters. That is no longer the case. They have been removed, in the spirit of the open source movement, for the advancement of electric vehicle technology.
Tesla Motors was created to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport. If we clear a path to the creation of compelling electric vehicles, but then lay intellectual property landmines behind us to inhibit others, we are acting in a manner contrary to that goal. Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology.
When I started out with my first company, Zip2, I thought patents were a good thing and worked hard to obtain them. And maybe they were good long ago, but too often these days they serve merely to stifle progress, entrench the positions of giant corporations and enrich those in the legal profession, rather than the actual inventors. After Zip2, when I realized that receiving a patent really just meant that you bought a lottery ticket to a lawsuit, I avoided them whenever possible.
At Tesla, however, we felt compelled to create patents out of concern that the big car companies would copy our technology and then use their massive manufacturing, sales and marketing power to overwhelm Tesla. We couldn’t have been more wrong. The unfortunate reality is the opposite: electric car programs (or programs for any vehicle that doesn’t burn hydrocarbons) at the major manufacturers are small to non-existent, constituting an average of far less than 1% of their total vehicle sales.
At best, the large automakers are producing electric cars with limited range in limited volume. Some produce no zero emission cars at all.
Given that annual new vehicle production is approaching 100 million per year and the global fleet is approximately 2 billion cars, it is impossible for Tesla to build electric cars fast enough to address the carbon crisis. By the same token, it means the market is enormous. Our true competition is not the small trickle of non-Tesla electric cars being produced, but rather the enormous flood of gasoline cars pouring out of the world’s factories every day.
We believe that Tesla, other companies making electric cars, and the world would all benefit from a common, rapidly-evolving technology platform. 
Technology leadership is not defined by patents, which history has repeatedly shown to be small protection indeed against a determined competitor, but rather by the ability of a company to attract and motivate the world’s most talented engineers. We believe that applying the open source philosophy to our patents will strengthen rather than diminish Tesla’s position in this regard.





__





						All Our Patent Are Belong To You
					

Yesterday, there was a wall of Tesla patents in the lobby of our Palo Alto headquarters. That is no longer the case. They have been removed, in the spirit of the open source movement, for the advancement of electric vehicle technology.




					www.tesla.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well for all that foreknowledge available 20+ years ago, all I can say is the legacy manufacturers, have certainly been caught flat footed by Tesla.



That happens with a lot of things.

Olivetti tried but failed to transition from being a typewriter manufacturer to a computer manufacturer for example. Had some initial success but nobody here's reading this on an Olivetti PC right?

And the most obvious of the lot - it was Kodak who invented digital photography which, due to their failure to adopt it, sent them bankrupt. The actual leader, they invented it, but somehow still failed to grasp that it was the future.

Another is that I recall plenty of newspaper articles from the second half of the 1990's about the internet and how wonderful it all was. It seemed they failed to understand the impact of what was being published in their own papers.

Then there's GM crushing perfectly good EV's because they didn't want them threatening their existing business.


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

It is interesting @Smurf1976 they were still selling dedicated lpg falcons and commodores until about 2016 from memory, oh how times change.


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Not sure if this has been printed here before -
> 
> 
> All Our Patent Are Belong To You​Elon Musk, CEOJune 12, 2014
> ...



That kind of contradicts your previous post, that the automakers were prepared and ready to go. But hey as long as Tesla is good about it, the rate of change will accelerate, which is good for everyone.


----------



## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That kind of contradicts your previous post, that the automakers were prepared and ready to go. But hey as long as Tesla is good about it, the rate of change will accelerate, which is good for everyone.




Where did I say that the ‘automakers were prepared and ready to go’?

Interesting how you take snippets of what I write.

I did mention that GM spent a lot of R&D to develop and build an EV, but they scrapped it and that was over 20 years ago. Technology and software has leap frogged since then.









						General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## JohnDe (10 December 2021)

Thomas Edison with his electric car in 1910.

Equipped with Edison’s state-of-the-art battery, the Bailey Electric managed to make 100 miles on a full charge.

In September 1910 the electric car competed with much bigger petrol-powered cars in a 1,000 miles long endurance run.


----------



## sptrawler (10 December 2021)

My appologies @JohnDe , I must have misinterpreted your post #4,603 above, no offence meant, just light banter. 
Yes, the Edison, actually electric cars were built before ICE cars, we talked about it early in the thread.

It is quite interesting to go back to the first page of the thread, started in 2011.


----------



## rederob (11 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Just as the average Australian is 37 years old but average lifespan is ~80.



Completely misses the point!
I have all my old analog phones, and they will last a lifetime.  In fact I have a shed full of things that have been superseded so *lifespan *is only a consideration when you have no other options.


Smurf1976 said:


> Much the same reason cars are roughly 20 years showroom to wreckers today.
> They're an expensive purchase and a large portion of the population simply can't afford to not get full life out of them. Hence most cars end up with more than one owner - someone with more money buys it new then sells it to someone with less money who may well then later sell it to someone with even less money.



Again, completely misses the point.
It's irrelevant how much you pay for something if its no longer practical, economic or safe to use it.  Moreover, I indicated the average age of a vehicle at 10 years, so the average period of ownership is much less.  By 2025 there will be very few ICE offerings, and by 2030 it's difficult to imagine anyone selling an ICE vehicle.  Beyond 2030 ICE infrastructure will progressively disappear.  

Your additional points were clumsy dross given we are talking about a transitional technology replacing fossil fuel use in vehicles.


----------



## sptrawler (11 December 2021)

If @rederob  all that you say is true, it definitely highlights the reason incentives will not be required, to encourage the uptake of EV's.
Which is unfortunate, as some of us would appreciate one.lol


----------



## rederob (11 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If @rederob  all that you say is true, it definitely highlights the reason incentives will not be required, to encourage the uptake of EV's.
> Which is unfortunate, as some of us would appreciate one.lol



Right now (= today) Chinese automakers are producing BEVs cheaper than ICE because they are relatively simple builds when started from  scratch on a dedicated NEV platform.  The only factor making them more expensive than ICE is a battery choice for longer range driving.  China has over a million charging points (sounds a lot but not for a population with the high BEV take up rates it has) so for that market they can literally afford cheaper options.  Also, their high speed train network makes it cheaper to travel that way for longer journeys than drive (as we here would do).
Given most of the legacy automakers already have joint venture arrangements in China *and *that their ICE vehicles are not selling well (I will post data later), their pivot to NEVs is a given: VW's iD4 is doing better than they forecast.  Speaking of "pivoting" to NEVs, BYD is now 95%, so that's how quickly it can occur.  However, I don't think the American market will adapt as quickly.

Regarding incentives, my preference has been to drop the federal taxes that ramp prices to levels affordable only to those on higher incomes, but only in relation to landed NEV prices below, say, $30k.  As I said, this would still leave the Teslas and most other imports taxed so overall little revenue would be lost.  The Norwegian type initiatives at a "local" level could then add an additional incentive as these lead to safer and less polluted cities.


----------



## JohnDe (11 December 2021)

There has been a lot of mention on here about EV vs ICE emissions, this should answer most of the questions - 

EV vs combustion engine: which car has fewer lifetime emissions?​By James Jennings
November 27, 2021

With many car manufacturers planning to either greatly reduce or entirely phase out combustion-engined vehicles over the next two decades – as governments, particularly in Europe, crack down on CO2 emissions – the buzz around electric cars grows by the day, driven by their zero tailpipe emissions.

Petrol and diesel-powered cars emit the harmful greenhouse gas carbon dioxide in varying amounts, but the overall effect is vast. In 2021, the American EPA estimates the average passenger car in that gas-guzzling country produces 4.6 metric tonnes of CO2 per year, while locally, data from the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries reveals the 2020 average emissions intensity for passenger cars was 149.5gm per kilometre driven, which adds up to just over 1.98 tonnes of CO2 annually per car.

There are more than 1 billion cars on the road, worldwide, which helps you to understand how road transport is estimated to make up between 15 and 30 per cent of carbon-dioxide emissions each year, depending on which country you’re in.

While the environmental benefits of zero-emission electric vehicles seem clear, there are other less-obvious pluses.




The energy efficiency of EVs compared to internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles significantly tips in favour of the former, according to the US Department of Energy, as EVs convert 77 per cent of the energy in their batteries to power at the wheels, whereas ICE vehicles only convert between 12 and 30 per cent of the energy stored in petrol to power at the wheels.

When the environmental life cycle of an electric vehicle is taken into account – including the greenhouse gases created during production, and potentially the burning of fossil fuels to produce the electricity that powers them – they are far from carbon neutral.

Many car companies have pledged to improve this equation, however, with Polestar – the fully electric offshoot of Volvo – pledging to build the world’s first entirely carbon-neutral car, the Polestar 0, by 2030.

Fredrika Klaren, Polestar’s head of sustainability, has compared the goal to a moon shot.

“Just like JFK, we don’t know how to land on the moon but we know that we need to do it,” she says. “We’re putting the goal out there and then we’re building the road map as we go along.”

In part, this will mean creating a car-assembly plant that is carbon neutral and runs on green energy alone, something Audi has already achieved as part of its “Mission: Zero” goal.

Its factory in Brussels, where the Audi e-tron EV is built, was awarded a certificate for CO2-neutral production in 2018, thanks in part to the fitment of Europe’s largest solar rooftop. Audi has pledged to make all of its production facilities carbon neutral by 2025.

One method used to monitor the greenhouse gases emitted by vehicles is called “well-to-wheel”, which is broken down into two parts: well-to-tank, which are the emissions created when producing the fuel (or electricity) for the car; and tank-to-wheel, which measures the efficiency and emissions associated with the operation of the vehicle.

While EVs produce high well-to-tank greenhouse gas emissions during electricity generation, the CO2 tank-to-wheel emissions are zero, unlike ICE cars.

If renewable energy like wind, hydro or solar is the source of an EV’s electricity – something the average Australian buyer can easily achieve by installing solar panels on their house – the well-to-tank rating can drop close to zero.

Car manufacturers are also increasingly using sustainable materials for car interiors, particularly in EVs, including recycled plastic waste for trims, floor mats and seats.

Audi’s new Q4 e-tron SUV, for example, features 27 components that contain recycled materials, including seat upholstery that uses polyester fibres obtained from recycled PET bottles and old textiles.

Other sustainable materials include kenaf (made from a plant in the mallow family), hemp, eucalyptus and wood (all used for BMW’s i3 EV), as well as cork, which the Mazda MX-30 Electric uses for its console (the car also uses eco-friendly vegan-leather upholstery, also seen in Teslas and Volvos).

Car manufacturers have also turned their attention to the time when EV batteries will begin to reach the end of their life cycles. Nissan and Renault have implemented ways to recycle and reuse EV batteries, and Volkswagen plans to recycle up to 3600 battery packs during the first year of operation of its new recycling plant in Salzgitter, Germany – a process that will extract precious cathode metals like cobalt, nickel, lithium and manganese for reuse.

Regardless of the sustainability and carbon-footprint challenges for manufacturers of EVs, their superiority in terms of environmental impact is clear.

A 2021 white paper published by the International Council on Clean Transportation compared the lifetime carbon emissions, both today and in 2030, of mid-sized vehicles in Europe, the US, China, and India across a variety of powertrain types.

The study found that all-electric vehicles in Europe produced 66 to 69 per cent less carbon-dioxide emissions than comparable ICE vehicles. In the US, a typical EV produced 60 to 68 per cent less emissions over its lifetime.





__





						NoCookies | The Australian
					






					www.theaustralian.com.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Completely misses the point!
> I have all my old analog phones, and they will last a lifetime. In fact I have a shed full of things that have been superseded so *lifespan *is only a consideration when you have no other options.



The big difference with a phone is that a smartphone offers major user advantages over any other phone.

Plus it’s a relatively minor purchase. A cheap one can be bought at the Post Office or in a supermarket and even going upmarket is still only a fortnight’s pay for an average worker.

Versus an EV which does nothing an ICE doesn’t do and which is a very major purchase for most, commonly only possible with finance over several years.

Well, that’s the case unless EV’s gain something major over ICE which is not the case with current models. You still have to register it and attach number plates, speed limits still apply as do parking time limits and fees, you still need a license to drive and so on.

EV’s would need to be drastically cheaper to purchase than their ICE counterparts or offer some major advantage to see the entire ICE fleet scrapped more quickly than it would ordinarily turn over.

An EV is ultimately just a car with a different means of making it move but it still does the same thing, it's still a car.


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 December 2021)

rederob said:


> It's irrelevant how much you pay for something if its no longer practical, economic or safe to use it. Moreover, I indicated the average age of a vehicle at 10 years, so the average period of ownership is much less.



Average age 10 years = average lifespan roughly double that so 20 years.

How many owners it has during that time is largely irrelevant to the fact that a car is on the roads for ~20 years from sale to scrap on average. It's irrelevant who owns it so long as it's still being used as a car by someone.

That figure hasn't really changed in a long time now. Hence it took 20 years to get rid of leaded and subsequently lead replacement petrol use down to a point where selling it was no longer viable and that's despite massive improvement in cars during that time. Fuel injection, disc brakes all round, power steering, air-conditioning, air bags and other more passive safety features all went from something that only rich people had to something that even the cheapest cars came with as standard during that time but it didn't lead to the old ones being scrapped any faster.


----------



## rederob (11 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The big difference with a phone is that a smartphone offers major user advantages over any other phone.
> 
> Plus it’s a relatively minor purchase. A cheap one can be bought at the Post Office or in a supermarket and even going upmarket is still only a fortnight’s pay for an average worker.
> 
> ...



Not  single point you made was relevant.
EVs are already being made cheaper than ICE. 
This thread has many times covered the advantages of EVs over ICE so I won't repeat them.


----------



## rederob (11 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Average age 10 years = average lifespan roughly double that so 20 years.
> 
> How many owners it has during that time is largely irrelevant to the fact that a car is on the roads for ~20 years from sale to scrap on average. It's irrelevant who owns it so long as it's still being used as a car by someone.
> 
> That figure hasn't really changed in a long time now. Hence it took 20 years to get rid of leaded and subsequently lead replacement petrol use down to a point where selling it was no longer viable and that's despite massive improvement in cars during that time. Fuel injection, disc brakes all round, power steering, air-conditioning, air bags and other more passive safety features all went from something that only rich people had to something that even the cheapest cars came with as standard during that time but it didn't lead to the old ones being scrapped any faster.



This is a long repeat of your previous irrelevances.
If you can't buy an ICE vehicle beyond 2030 then they turn into dinosaurs.
Also, by 2030 we will have a burgeoning NEV used car market.  And 10 years later again it will be larger still so it's difficult to conceive any viable market for used ICE.  An implication of this is that ICE vehicles will have a negligible resale value.


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## Value Collector (11 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Average age 10 years = average lifespan roughly double that so 20 years.
> 
> How many owners it has during that time is largely irrelevant to the fact that a car is on the roads for ~20 years from sale to scrap on average. It's irrelevant who owns it so long as it's still being used as a car by someone.
> 
> That figure hasn't really changed in a long time now. Hence it took 20 years to get rid of leaded and subsequently lead replacement petrol use down to a point where selling it was no longer viable and that's despite massive improvement in cars during that time. Fuel injection, disc brakes all round, power steering, air-conditioning, air bags and other more passive safety features all went from something that only rich people had to something that even the cheapest cars came with as standard during that time but it didn't lead to the old ones being scrapped any faster.



An interesting statistic to know would be the average age of cars, weighted by km’s driven per year.

For example, a retired couple with their 1997 Corolla that is driven 20 km a week, shouldn’t be weighted the same as a 3 year old car on a daily commute of 100+ km per day.

By figuring out a way to weight the average age to kms driven, we could figure out how old the car fleet is that’s actually doing the heavy lifting eg, what is the age of the work horses.

That way we would have a clearer Idea about how long it would take for EV’s to have an impact.


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## Value Collector (12 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The big difference with a phone is that a smartphone offers major user advantages over any other phone.
> 
> Plus it’s a relatively minor purchase. A cheap one can be bought at the Post Office or in a supermarket and even going upmarket is still only a fortnight’s pay for an average worker.
> 
> ...



In the commercial fleet, it’s possible lower running costs eg fuel and maintenance might spark an early scrapping of vehicles.

I can see that a truck might last 30 years when New diesel vehicles are much better than old ones, But when New vehicles running costs start having huge differences, it might change things.


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## Smurf1976 (12 December 2021)

rederob said:


> This is a long repeat of your previous irrelevances.
> If you can't buy an ICE vehicle beyond 2030 then they turn into dinosaurs.



They do but an ICE sold in, say, 2025 isn't going to be scrapped in 2030 just because it's no longer in production.

It would take a truly major fall in the price of new vehicles to make that a realistic scenario where cars are effectively disposable rather than being, for most consumers, the second most expensive item they'll ever purchase (and the actual most expensive one that isn't normally an investment).


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## divs4ever (12 December 2021)

well when i was young the key selling point to the younger buyer was 'will it get me laid '  , in recent years i have seen a trend of  'can the family live in this  , if our circumstances turn bad ' ( i kid you not )

 let's see what the real motivation for EVs will be  by the time they are mass produced 

 ( having several Muso friends fitting in ALL the bang's gear is a big selling point for them )


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## Value Collector (12 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> They do but an ICE sold in, say, 2025 isn't going to be scrapped in 2030 just because it's no longer in production.
> 
> It would take a truly major fall in the price of new vehicles to make that a realistic scenario where cars are effectively disposable rather than being, for most consumers, the second most expensive item they'll ever purchase (and the actual most expensive one that isn't normally an investment).



A “work horse”/Taxi that does 150,000 km per year purchased in 2025, could be put retired/sold to a family on welfare in 2030, and end up only doing 5,000 km a year for the remainder of its life, so it ends up taking the last 10 years of its life to drive the distance it did in the first 3 months.

Thats why I think it would be interesting to see the vehicle stats weighted to kms driven, because I suspect the work horse fleet is much younger than average.


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## Value Collector (12 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> well when i was young the key selling point to the younger buyer was 'will it get me laid '  , in recent years i have seen a trend of  'can the family live in this  , if our circumstances turn bad ' ( i kid you not )
> 
> let's see what the real motivation for EVs will be  by the time they are mass produced
> 
> ( having several Muso friends fitting in ALL the bang's gear is a big selling point for them )



Ev’s are great to spend time in, running the aircon etc with out having to run a big petrol burning engine is a massive plus.

so if I have to live in a car, I would definitely want it to be an ev.


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## divs4ever (12 December 2021)

and what about the children , not everyone  'between homes ' is single


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## Value Collector (12 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> and what about the children , not everyone  'between homes ' is single



I think the children prefer having the aircon on too.


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## Value Collector (12 December 2021)

I have an investment in chevron (indirectly via Berkshire), They are one of the global oil majors.

I just watched one of their corporate videos where they are boasting about how their oil drills and wells in Colorado now produce 90% less pollution and are cheaper to run.

The secret to this improved efficiency and lower pollution was converting their drills and pumps to electricity.

There is a bit of Irony there, that even the Oil wells are moving away from using oil as a fuel source.


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## JohnDe (12 December 2021)

For those with range anxiety -

Just got back from a weekend trip. This trip was part pleasure and part business, we've purchased a block at a coastal location and had an appointment to see a building consultant in a nearby town, about 2.5 hour drive one way and we decided to stay overnight where the block of land is as my wife booked dinner at a great brewery/gin joint 

We booked late, so there wasn't any choice in where we stayed, meaning we couldn't charge the Tesla. I was contemplating taking one of our ICE cars becaue there is no public charging points and our accomodation gave us no charging options, but in the end I thought 'what the hell, lets see what happens' and took the Tesla M3 LR.

Charged at 100%,  completed my commitments and left in the afternoon. Stopped at the consultant, and then off to our accomodation in the next town over. Forgot to turn of Sentry Mode (uses power every time it is activated), drove around the town stopping at various places numerous times for research, fun and lunch, then headed home with a detour Jon the way for some more research, and then home.

We safely completed the weekend trip without having to re-charge.


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## mullokintyre (12 December 2021)

Labour must be reading this thread  in ASF.
From The Australian


> Labor has vowed to waive the import tariffs and luxury car taxes for electric vehicles, while also exempting them from fringe benefits tax when bought by businesses.A leading energy expert has cast doubt on the ability of Labor to reach its electric car projections without significantly stronger policy levers such as fuel emissions standards or subsidies.Grattan Institute director Tony Wood urged Labor to release the assumptions of the modelling conducted by RepuTex that shows its policies would see electric vehicles making up 89 per cent of new car sales by 2030. The predicted 600,000 sales a year by 2030 is more than 200 per cent above Scott Morrison’s projections.
> assumption from Labor’s modelling is well above former leader Bill Shorten’s target for electric cars to make up 50 per cent of new car sales by 2030, which the Prime Minister declared would “end the weekend”.





> the basis of everything I have seen, which is not the RepuTex modelling, I can’t see how you get that level of uptake in that period of time,” Mr Wood told The Australian.
> 
> 
> The Morrison government predicts its policies would see electric vehicles account for 29 per cent of new car sales by 2030, up from less than 1 per cent last year.
> ...



It still does not address the problem of what to do for those who are on the bottom third of the socio economic scale .
Besides having little chance of  being in a position to buy one. the large cut in government revenue from the loss of tarriffs, import duty,  luxury car tax as well as the gst and and  fossil fuel excise taxes forgone will most likely affect them as well.
as usual, it will be the poor subsiding the aspirations of the wealthy.
Now if one of the government parties did a deal with a chinese EV manufacturer and gave an EV to anyone who falls into that bottom third, then they might get somewhere.
Mick


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## Value Collector (12 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> For those with range anxiety -
> 
> Just got back from a weekend trip. This trip was part pleasure and part business, we've purchased a block at a coastal location and had an appointment to see a building consultant in a nearby town, about 2.5 hour drive one way and we decided to stay overnight where the block of land is as my wife booked dinner at a great brewery/gin joint
> 
> ...



Plenty of juice left.


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## Value Collector (12 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Labour must be reading this thread  in ASF.
> From The Australian
> 
> 
> ...



The more Ev’s that the middle class buy now, the more second hand evs there will be on the market later, and they will trickle down to the lower income working class.


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## basilio (13 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> In the commercial fleet, it’s possible lower running costs eg fuel and maintenance might spark an early scrapping of vehicles.
> 
> I can see that a truck might last 30 years when New diesel vehicles are much better than old ones, But when New vehicles running costs start having huge differences, it might change things.




This issue of running costs for high mileage ICE trucks  vs electric trucks is already being considered for early action.
I posted a story earlier this year about an engineer who is developng a process of converting ICE trucks to electric for Sydney- Brisbane runs. Will be interesting to see if it gets off the ground.  The cost savings for high mileage trucks  are compelling









						Swap and go: electric trucks to run between Sydney and Brisbane using exchangeable batteries
					

Batteries can be swapped in three minutes, removing the need for trucks to plug in and charge




					www.theguardian.com
				











						Sydney to Brisbane for $525 in electric converted prime mover
					

Janus Electric, based on the NSW Central Coast, is about to road test the world's first patented exchangeable battery for heavy vehicles.




					bigrigs.com.au


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## mullokintyre (13 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> The more Ev’s that the middle class buy now, the more second hand evs there will be on the market later, and they will trickle down to the lower income working class.



Quite true, but it does not change the premise that the upper echelons of society will get a subsidised  EV, whereas the rest will get the scraps.
Mick


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## Value Collector (13 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Quite true, but it does not change the premise that the upper echelons of society will get a subsidised  EV, whereas the rest will get the scraps.
> Mick



Reducing the costs of Evs mean that more middle class and working class can afford them, I am a member on Face Book model 3 group, and Therese heaps of average working class people on there who are stretching the limits of their affordability to try and get an Ev, this would lower the burden on them, and also help the rest of society vs increasing Australia’s energy security, and lowering air pollution.

But is the sticking point for you that the “rich folk” might also save some dollars?


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## basilio (13 December 2021)

*The cost of EVs is falling rapidly*.  Right now in fact the biggest and cheapest selling EV in the world is a $5000 urban runabout in China. So let's not get too excited about protestations of the  starving poor eking out an existence from the scraps of middle class table.

Tesla has made it clear that within 12-18 months they will release an electric car in the $25k pricepoint of average consumers.  Of course there is no way that even middling poor people could afford that price - but this will work it's way through the new and used car market.

The overwhelming advantage for all people but in particular poorer communities is the drop in running costs of these new cars.  Fuel will be a fraction of current costs. Maintenance will also be much lower.  Since these are fixed costs they will be of much greater value to people who have less disposable income.









						Chinese £3,200 budget electric car takes on Tesla
					

The mini electric vehicle being made by China's biggest carmaker is now outselling Tesla two to one.



					www.bbc.com
				












						A cheap Tesla could be with us sooner than expected, according to tipster
					

Could this be the low-cost Tesla Model 2?




					www.techradar.com


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## mullokintyre (13 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Reducing the costs of Evs mean that more middle class and working class can afford them, I am a member on Face Book model 3 group, and Therese heaps of average working class people on there who are stretching the limits of their affordability to try and get an Ev, this would lower the burden on them, and also help the rest of society vs increasing Australia’s energy security, and lowering air pollution.
> 
> But is the sticking point for you that the “rich folk” might also save some dollars?



No, on the contrary, I would probably be classed as one of the rich folk, and thus  the proposals would be most advantageous to me.
But I am in a position to look after myself, pretty much regardless of what the market or the governments may do.
My concern is for the less fortunate.
I can make financial and lifestyle decisions  with relative ease, but that is not the lot of many.
They are passionate and prepared to  buy at almost any cost.
Your facebook group may have some battlers, but it is not  representative of the OZ population, any more than ASF is, or readers of  ABC news are.
So many policy  decisions are made by people who will benefit from them, which unfortunately means there are many for whom there is little  benefit at best, or a  severe penalty at worst.
I am sorry if ithe sticking point for you is that those less fortunate than ourselves get the raw end of the deal.
mick


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## divs4ever (13 December 2021)

there are PLENTY of    *** starving poor eking out an existence from the scraps of middle class table. ***

 and i think those $5000 urban runabouts  are the perfect foothold for EVs , good for the city worker  and parts of government  fleets 

refine and improve their way  up the socio-economic ladder ( your billionaire cares if the dash is real Brazilian Walnut ,  most punters are just happy the dash doesn't fall off when being driven )  besides 10,000 runabouts will do  more to reduce pollution  than 1,000 Teslas 

 i prefer  usability over  ego-boosting ( and always  have )  i DO value quality  , where it improves functionality and durability


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## divs4ever (13 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> No, on the contrary, I would probably be classed as one of the rich folk, and thus  the proposals would be most advantageous to me.
> But I am in a position to look after myself, pretty much regardless of what the market or the governments may do.
> My concern is for the less fortunate.
> I can make financial and lifestyle decisions  with relative ease, but that is not the lot of many.
> ...



 i have never bought a ( brand ) new car in my life  , and have no FaceBook ( or Twitter ) account   i probably manage to squeak into  'middle-class ' now ( during say the last 5 years )

 am much more likely to buy an EV mobility scooter  than Tesla  even though i could probably afford two Teslas  ( and set up a public use charging facility  , but i probably won't .. there will be too many regulations coming )

Australia has the opportunity to reintroduce a vehicle manufacturing facility but probably won't ( at least not a home-grown one )

 another option would be EV shuttle buses  , but i bet that won't catch on in the next ten years either  

 i think we need EVs to move people ( and goods ) but there is currently a bigger push to boost status  making  it likely the Asians ( including India ) will 'own ' the industry


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## basilio (13 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> there are PLENTY of    *** starving poor eking out an existence from the scraps of middle class table. ***
> 
> and i think those $5000 urban runabouts  are the perfect foothold for EVs , good for the city worker  and parts of government  fleets
> 
> ...




Simple cost effective EVs are the way to go. In overall terms the rate of cost reduction has been remarkable. In fact we are now recognising just how much better value EV cars are vs ICE vehicles.

But on the bigger picture I believe we should recognise that cars have traditionally impoverished people.  

The model of car manufacture has been planned obsolescence  from day one.  On top of that the manufacturing ethos has been about maximising after sale revenue through expensive maintenance and repair bills.  If one swallows the car makers story of buying new, buying often and servicing the car religiously  at the dealers  the average punter would be well on the way to the poorhouse.


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## Value Collector (13 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> No, on the contrary, I would probably be classed as one of the rich folk, and thus  the proposals would be most advantageous to me.
> But I am in a position to look after myself, pretty much regardless of what the market or the governments may do.
> My concern is for the less fortunate.
> I can make financial and lifestyle decisions  with relative ease, but that is not the lot of many.
> ...



I don’t see how lowering the cost of evs means that lower income people get a raw deal, we all breathe the same air, so more evs on the roads is good for everyone.

and as has been pointed out repeatedly, the cars filter down to the lower incomes via the used car market.


----------



## rederob (13 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> They do but an ICE sold in, say, 2025 isn't going to be scrapped in 2030 just because it's no longer in production.



Not really the issue.
You keep missing the bit about what "*transition*" means.  Like we won't be going back to coal for electricity generation because we are in transition.  And even with +40year life spans coal fired power plants will mostly have disappeared well before 2040.
Next point, in Europe no FF cars will be sold after 2035.  And in more and more cities diesel vehicles are being banned.  Those are initiatives that were never contemplated 10 years ago, and the thing is this trend has barely started.  This map is a year old, but gives you an idea of the global trend:


I would bet that by 2025 the above map will be filled mostly with blue and green.

 The real issue is that NEVs will be pretty much all that's available by 2030 (battery/hydrogen availability willing) because they are already on parity with comparable size ICE vehicles, just not yet in Australia.  Aside from vehicle pricing another factor that will drive the transition faster is deliberate decarbonisation policies, with or without incentives.
As a very quick aside the massive oversubscriptions for US NEV pickups has led legacy automakers to announce new offerings in order to compete with Rivian and Cybertrucks or miss the boat (which may already be the case as they are 2 years behind).  In other words the pace of change is being driven by both consumer demand and a need to compete or disappear.  


Smurf1976 said:


> It would take a truly major fall in the price of new vehicles to make that a realistic scenario where cars are effectively disposable ...



Not at all as the NEV market already has cars in production and on the streets costing under US$5k.  What price do they need to fall to?
And why do they need to be considered disposable given that even the smallest EVs will have a battery pack that can be converted to home energy storage


Smurf1976 said:


> rather than being, for most consumers, the second most expensive item they'll ever purchase (and the actual most expensive one that isn't normally an investment).



That's a trivial point.  Our home is in the $1M range but our main car cost only $35k new (less than 6 months wages), and will have a resale value contributing towards the next car purchase.
A point you keep dodging is that ICE resale values will progressively decline until they are scrap metal value only, so nobody is going to want to see that so called investment disappear down the gurgler.  

We are yet to hit 2022 and we have countries like Norway with around 95% NEV sales, Germany over 30%, and the biggest car market in the world - China - at about 18% and increasing rapidly:


----------



## mullokintyre (13 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t see how lowering the cost of evs means that lower income people get a raw deal, we all breathe the same air, so more evs on the roads is good for everyone.



I thought I pointed out how the lower income people (LIP's) get a raw deal, but I obviously didn't do it well enough, so I will have another go.
Firstly, all the tax benefits, removal of Luxury car tax, import duties, GST, FBT  etc  provide very little if any benefit to the LIP's , but lots of benefits to the wealthy.   It might be argued that  if the initial costs of new EV's goes down, then used EV's will also go down, but that will take more than a few years to trickle down.
Secondly, the LIP's still driving around in their inefficient  ICE bombs will have to buy fuel, on which they pay GST, fuel excise tax etc. The wealthy EV buyers will pay none of those, good for them.
Thirdly, due to the two things above, the governments will have forgone income from the switch to EV's. 
This in itself  may be a good thing, but who do you think will disproportionally affected by this drop in income? 
The LIP's are far more likely to be heavily dependant on the financial assistance from governments.
So they are likely to miss out again.
All the while, those of us who can afford an EV, can sit back with our best virtue signalling smile and say look what we are doing for the environment.
I had a similar discussion with a member of my family on the weekend. 
One of her responses was that all vehicles, including ICE's,  should pay on a user pays system- the more miles you travel, the higher the tax you pay.
 But the devil is in the detail of how you first of all  measure how much travel each vehicle does, and secondly how does the payment get administered. She had no answer other than to say the government can set up schemes to administer it. 
Something like the ATO set up with Robodebt I suggested?
My brother and I I then spent the next half hour thinking up ways to get around it.
Highly entertaining.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (13 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I thought I pointed out how the lower income people (LIP's) get a raw deal, but I obviously didn't do it well enough, so I will have another go.
> Firstly, all the tax benefits, removal of Luxury car tax, import duties, GST, FBT  etc  provide very little if any benefit to the LIP's , but lots of benefits to the wealthy.   It might be argued that  if the initial costs of new EV's goes down, then used EV's will also go down, but that will take more than a few years to trickle down.
> Secondly, the LIP's still driving around in their inefficient  ICE bombs will have to buy fuel, on which they pay GST, fuel excise tax etc. The wealthy EV buyers will pay none of those, good for them.
> Thirdly, due to the two things above, the governments will have forgone income from the switch to EV's.
> ...



The “Tax benefits” would only exist to get more evs on the road, and that would Benefit everyone.

1, better local air quality in our cities.
2, better long term environmental outcomes for climate change.
3, better energy security for Australia in general (lower oil prices also)
4, a used car market populated with more Evs.

The government already spends more on healthcare related to air quality than it collects from the fuel tax, and that’s just the cash cost, not the human suffering, and the poor are the most likely to live next to highways and heavy traffic zones with poor air quality.

———————
Australia is already one of the best countrys to be poor in, low income people pay hardly any tax here compared to the government services they receive.

A person on minimum wage will not come close to paying enough tax over their life to cover the cost of all the government services they consume, they are heavily subsidised by the middle class, so I don’t think it’s the end of the world if the middle class have a vehicle tax removed, when the outcome benefits everyone down the line anyway.


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## sptrawler (13 December 2021)

basilio said:


> Simple cost effective EVs are the way to go. In overall terms the rate of cost reduction has been remarkable. In fact we are now recognising just how much better value EV cars are vs ICE vehicles.
> 
> But on the bigger picture I believe we should recognise that cars have traditionally impoverished people.
> 
> The model of car manufacture has been planned obsolescence  from day one.  On top of that the manufacturing ethos has been about maximising after sale revenue through expensive maintenance and repair bills.  If one swallows the car makers story of buying new, buying often and servicing the car religiously  at the dealers  the average punter would be well on the way to the poorhouse.



I was wondering, have you bought one yet @basilio ?


----------



## qldfrog (13 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I thought I pointed out how the lower income people (LIP's) get a raw deal, but I obviously didn't do it well enough, so I will have another go.
> Firstly, all the tax benefits, removal of Luxury car tax, import duties, GST, FBT  etc  provide very little if any benefit to the LIP's , but lots of benefits to the wealthy.   It might be argued that  if the initial costs of new EV's goes down, then used EV's will also go down, but that will take more than a few years to trickle down.
> Secondly, the LIP's still driving around in their inefficient  ICE bombs will have to buy fuel, on which they pay GST, fuel excise tax etc. The wealthy EV buyers will pay none of those, good for them.
> Thirdly, due to the two things above, the governments will have forgone income from the switch to EV's.
> ...



And Mike, i hope you mentioned that fact.
A user pay system per km is another tax the poor scheme.even blind freddy would see it
Who has to travel more for work daily..from dormitory suburbs stuck in traffic jams, while the higher class jump in a uber or just do 10km to the office or golf course.
And as they now WFH 3d a week...
The more you travel in a car (or public transport) the poorer you are...


----------



## basilio (13 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I was wondering, have you bought one yet @basilio ?



Nuh  It is certainly on the horizon but I'm still one of people who buy 10 year old cars and try and get a few more years out of them before they totally cack it.

Realistically, on my budget, I'm looking at the introduction of new  cheap Tesla 2-3 years down the track. In fact it would be the only car I have ever bought new or even near new.


----------



## divs4ever (13 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> And Mike, i hope you mentioned that fact.
> A user pay system per km is another tax the poor scheme.even blind freddy would see it
> Who has to travel more for work daily..from dormitory suburbs stuck in traffic jams, while the higher class jump in a uber or just do 10km to the office or golf course.
> And as they now WFH 3d a week...
> The more you travel in a car (or public transport) the poorer you are...



 but if you jog or use a bicycle  , you are fitter and quicker ( especially in peak hour  or after the public transport 'curfew ' )


----------



## qldfrog (13 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> but if you jog or use a bicycle  , you are fitter and quicker ( especially in peak hour  or after the public transport 'curfew ' )



well I was riding to work..but not exactly working class


----------



## JohnDe (13 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> I would probably be classed as one of the rich folk, and thus  the proposals would be most advantageous to me.
> I am in a position to look after myself, pretty much regardless of what the market or the governments may do.
> My concern is for the less fortunate.
> I can make financial and lifestyle decisions  with relative ease, but that is not the lot of many.
> ...




I'm not sure that you realise that we live in a democratic capitalist Australia with a strong socialist foundation of fairness and sharing wealth.

If you believe that moe should be done you could always offer 70% of your profits to the poor and disadvantaged in the surrounding suburbs, or even a charity or two. 

That way you can live a life on a fair wage, working to help the disadvantaged and feel good about it.

Write us a report in 12 months time.


----------



## mullokintyre (13 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> I'm not sure that you realise that we live in a democratic capitalist Australia with a strong socialist foundation of fairness and sharing wealth.



 If we really lived in a capitalist society , there would be no need for incentives.
As for a strong socialist foundation of fairness and sharing, your next sentence destroys that myth.


JohnDe said:


> If you believe that moe should be done you could always offer 70% of your profits to the poor and disadvantaged in the surrounding suburbs, or even a charity or two.
> 
> That way you can live a life on a fair wage, working to help the disadvantaged and feel good about it.
> 
> Write us a report in 12 months time.


----------



## JohnDe (13 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> If we really lived in a capitalist society , there would be no need for incentives.
> As for a strong socialist foundation of fairness and sharing, your next sentence destroys that myth.




we have multiple safety nets, including no income tax for low wage earners, monetary assistance to families with low or no income, help for the disadvantaged, the sick and disabled, Medicare, discount medication, discounted and free transport for the unemployed the sick and the retired, a pension, and more.

Some countries are more socialist than us, and some less, regardless of the mix we are still a fair country.

There will never be a time when everyone is happy about what is given and what is taken. Humans just like a whinge, some see the negatives of that and get up and do something about it, others just point their finger thinking they are contributing.


----------



## Value Collector (13 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> If we really lived in a capitalist society , there would be no need for incentives.
> As for a strong socialist foundation of fairness and sharing, your next sentence destroys that myth.



I hardly think that is true.

Pure economics is not always going to lead to the best outcomes, incentives and disincentives are part of capitalism, often it’s the only way to get capital to move in ways that have better outcomes for society, but might not always be the most economic sense for the ones we rely on to allocate the capital.


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 December 2021)

basilio said:


> *The cost of EVs is falling rapidly*. Right now in fact the biggest and cheapest selling EV in the world is a $5000 urban runabout in China. So let's not get too excited about protestations of the starving poor eking out an existence from the scraps of middle class table.



I agree with the point but on the other hand, that same car would almost certainly cost far more than $5k if sold in Australia as with most things.

Plus a $5k second hand ICE car has no limitation to urban use. It's entirely possible to drive pretty much anywhere in Australia in any ICE that's in good running condition whereas with an EV, only one with a reasonably long range will have that ability in practice.


----------



## over9k (14 December 2021)

Pure guesswork here, but I suspect that the battery tech for electric cars will be "good enough" when the battery tech for gardening tools (lawnmowers, line trimmers, hedge trimmers, chainsaws etc) is good enough for those. 

Currently, battery chainsaws, line trimmers etc exist but they're just not as good as their internal combustion counterparts. They just aren't. 

Yet.


----------



## JohnDe (14 December 2021)

over9k said:


> Pure guesswork here, but I suspect that the battery tech for electric cars will be "good enough" when the battery tech for gardening tools (lawnmowers, line trimmers, hedge trimmers, chainsaws etc) is good enough for those.
> 
> Currently, battery chainsaws, line trimmers etc exist but they're just not as good as their internal combustion counterparts. They just aren't.
> 
> Yet.




Surely you jest haha Thanks for the morning laugh jester


----------



## rederob (14 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Plus a $5k second hand ICE car has no limitation to urban use. It's entirely possible to drive pretty much anywhere in Australia in any ICE that's in good running condition whereas with an EV, only one with a reasonably long range will have that ability in practice.



PHEV are more economical and have excellent driving range, depending on what you want to use the car for.  Your argument is akin to buying a Mini to tow a caravan.  People usually buy a vehicle fit for purpose.
However, if you had to drive an EV a long way, this guy drove across Africa 3 years ago:


Or 2 years ago an even longer journey of 95000 kilometres was completed:


For normal everyday use EVs are no more constrained in use than an ICEV.  And as charger stations rollout their practically over longer journeys will increase.  On the other hand, if I had an EV I could drive to my niece's place at Hervey bay, recharge over night, and drive back home (600km round trip) without visiting a servo.


----------



## JohnDe (14 December 2021)

“EVs convert over 77 per cent of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12 per cent – 30 per cent of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels,” according to the US Department of Energy

An EV motor is around 85 - 90 per cent efficient when converting coal-fired energy to power. It’s estimated that technological improvements will see emissions from combustion engines falling by about 1.9 per cent a year through to 2040, according to Bloomberg, while EV emissions are anticipated to fall between 3 per cent and 10 per cent annually.









						EVs: Are they really more efficient?
					

They have been hailed as a new breed of vehicle that could surpass petrol-driven cars on safety, running costs, performance and design.




					www.energycouncil.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

All the talk has been about the Tesla Cyberute, this Ford F 150 slipped under the radar.









						Ford says it now has nearly 200,000 reservations for F-150 Lightning, or 3 years of backlog
					

Ford confirmed that it now has nearly 200,000 reservations for its upcoming F-150 Lightning electric pickup truck. At this point, it represents roughly a three-year backlog. It might make it hard to get access to the vehicle. Earlier this year, Ford unveiled the F-150 Lightning, an all-electric...




					electrek.co
				



From the article:
Ford confirmed that it now has nearly 200,000 reservations for its upcoming F-150 Lightning electric pickup truck. At this point, it represents roughly a three-year backlog. It might make it hard to get access to the vehicle.
Normally, we see a large number of reservations for a new EV early on, and it quickly tapers off. It looks like it’s not the case for the Ford F-150 Lightning.

Ford kept getting steady demand for the F-150 Lightning and added about 80,000 reservations for a total of 120,000 pre-orders by the end of July.

Last month, Ford reported 160,000 reservations for the electric pickup truck.

Now, just a month later, the automaker added an impressive 40,000 reservations for a total of around 200,000, according to a new presentation by Lisa Drake, Ford’s chief operating officer:

As we reported last month, a survey of F-150 reservation holders showed that 25% were replacing a gas-powered F-150 pickup truck.
40% are already EV owners and 11% are Tesla owners.

The demand is impressive, but it doesn’t sound like Ford is ready to meet it production-wise. Ford has previously shared plans to produce 15,000 Lightning trucks in 2022, 55,000 in 2023, and 80,000 in 2024.


----------



## rederob (14 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> All the talk has been about the Tesla Cyberute, this Ford F 150 slipped under the radar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think Ford will need to find a new battery supplier if it hopes to deliver on their orders any sooner.  I read that the Cybertruck production delay was just as much to do will aligning with its massive battery needs of Tesla as anything else - such as a chip shortage - and that its plus-one million orders dwarfs all its rivals combined.  Not only is the Cybertruck in huge demand, but an RV conversion company has taken US$100M in preorders as well!
GM's Hummer is ridiculously overpriced, but as for all things American, bigger is always better, so no doubt it will find some buyers.


----------



## Value Collector (14 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> All the talk has been about the Tesla Cyberute, this Ford F 150 slipped under the radar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ford is limiting the range to 370kms due to not being able to produce enough batteries,… Cyber Truck range will be 800kms.

370kms range is still decent though


----------



## sptrawler (14 December 2021)

I personally think it is great there is plenty of demand for EV's, there is plenty of time for everyone to get into pizzing competition's, the more variety the better for the consumer. lol


----------



## rederob (15 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I personally think it is great there is plenty of demand for EV's, there is plenty of time for everyone to get into pizzing competition's, the more variety the better for the consumer. lol



Almost any mention of "Tesla" nowadays is clickbait internationally irrespective of the quality of its content.  And Elon Musk's ability to attract media attention guarantees Tesla sales in the absence of a marketing division within Tesla itself. 
The same cannot be said of BYD.
A quick snapshot of the latest data on NEVs in China shows:


BYD's share in November was about 92k compared to Tesla's 53k.
Less known again is that BYD has an order backlog of over 200k units, which is remarkable because Chinese consumerism is largely driven by what's available now.  Last week BYD literally turned the first sod to mark its construction of a US$2.4B facility to support its automaking (a side note is that BYD makes more from its mobile phones than it does from cars).  Furthermore, while BYD has been able to accommodate its auto chip needs in the past - 55% of its semiconductors were dedicated to BYD Auto - it has recently done deals with 4 smaller chip suppliers to meet its 2022 needs.
What makes China nimble in manufacturing anything is how entrepreneurial they have become. The chart below shows almost 160k new business registrations for New Energy Vehicle related products, which was more than double the increase over last year:


I am mentioning this to highlight how China has gone about achieving manufacturing dominance in just about every sector it has dabbled in.  And in the case of BYD, because it is producing EVs for around the same price as ICEVs, it's phasing out its ICEV production.   I suspect that when the legacy automakers in joint ventures in China work this out, they will follow suit.


----------



## JohnDe (15 December 2021)

_The Tesla Model 3 SR+ has received a significant update and is now fitted with a different battery pack. 

The new “LFP” (Lithium-Iron-Phosphate) battery is cheaper, easier and more ethical to mine but less dense compared to Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminium. 
So the pack size has increased to c.60kWh to compensate.

Also a fundamental difference is that the cars can be charged to 100% daily and not capped to 90%.

So why does all this mean for real world range, efficiency and charging capability? 

These cars have a heat pump as standard plus double laminated front windows which should also help in this cold weather._


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 December 2021)

rederob said:


> PHEV are more economical and have excellent driving range, depending on what you want to use the car for. Your argument is akin to buying a Mini to tow a caravan. People usually buy a vehicle fit for purpose



My point is simply that for those on the thread referring to $5k cars and so on, well a $5k ICE most certainly is fit for purpose for driving anywhere on a sealed road or even a decent gravel one.

A $5k Chinese EV isn't a direct replacement for a $5k second hand ICE at present is my point. It serves a different purpose.


----------



## Jeda (15 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> My point is simply that for those on the thread referring to $5k cars and so on, well a $5k ICE most certainly is fit for purpose for driving anywhere on a sealed road or even a decent gravel one.
> 
> A $5k Chinese EV isn't a direct replacement for a $5k second hand ICE at present is my point. It serves a different purpose.




I wish I could find a decent $5000 car for the 17 year old living with us and about to get her licence 

Prices of used cars have gone through the roof and very average quality at the moment.


----------



## rederob (15 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> A $5k Chinese EV isn't a direct replacement for a $5k second hand ICE at present is my point. It serves a different purpose



No, the Chinese BEV is a *NEW *car!
You seem to forget the NEV market is nascent.
You definitely can buy old ICEvs for $5k, but I doubt any NEVS are available for under $10k as even a cheap 8 year old Nissan Leaf is selling from $15k upwards.  The cheapest Tesla I could find at carsales.com was a 2014 model at $almost $64k .
When (maybe "if") NEVs are selling for $5k at some point in the future then they will serve the same purpose that present ICEvs at that price point do.
I don't understand your points as they seem to overlook what a transition means.


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 December 2021)

rederob said:


> I don't understand your points as they seem to overlook what a transition means.



My argument is that EV sales will ramp up, ultimately replacing ICE sales, but it takes ~20 years to turn over most of the fleet meaning that significant numbers of ICE's will be on the roads past 2040 in practice. Since even if all ICE sales stopped right now, literally today, it would still be early 2040's before they're effectively gone.

Your argument if I've understood it correctly is that we'll see a much faster change with the ICE fleet scrapped well before it wears out and replaced with EV's due to their advantages.

My response is that whilst I acknowledge it's possible, it's unlikely in practice given that an EV built to a standard that's a direct replacement for an ICE car for most users, which requires that it's suited to highway travel, has a decent battery range and so on, is far too expensive for consumers to choose to scrap perfectly good ICE's and buy a new EV. There's a potential market for "city" type cars yes, but it's likely a fairly limited one given the consumer preference for SUV's and that even the cheapest ICE car has a range of several hundred km and is more than capable of highway travel.

That's not an argument against EV's, my point is simply that I'm expecting them to replace ICE cars in the normal manner and that there won't likely be any mass scrapping of ICE's that aren't near end of life.

Time will tell.....


----------



## over9k (16 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> My argument is that EV sales will ramp up, ultimately replacing ICE sales, but it takes ~20 years to turn over most of the fleet meaning that significant numbers of ICE's will be on the roads past 2040 in practice. Since even if all ICE sales stopped right now, literally today, it would still be early 2040's before they're effectively gone.
> 
> Your argument if I've understood it correctly is that we'll see a much faster change with the ICE fleet scrapped well before it wears out and replaced with EV's due to their advantages.
> 
> ...



Yeah, it'll probably be like with LED bulbs - run the old style until it dies and then replace with the new.


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2021)

Is it just the battery component of evs that make them so expensive?

Electric motors and components shouldn't cost that much.


----------



## over9k (16 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> Is it just the battery component of evs that make them so expensive?
> 
> Electric motors and components shouldn't cost that much.



Yes. Long range 1500km battery packs exist already, they're just a quarter of a mil each. Hence why rolls royce, bentley etc are going full electric as you can put a 250k battery pack in a 500k car. 

But an everyman 50-100k car... nope. Or at least, not unless you want to lose 6 figures on every sale.


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2021)

Remember those compressed air cars that were getting hype around 7 years ago. The only true green car. Well they still suck.









						What's the status of Compressed Air-Powered Vehicles?
					

Gas, diesel, electric, hydrogen, and ...air? Yes, some believe compressed air to be a viable means of propulsion. How's that working out? Let's look




					hooniverse.com


----------



## divs4ever (16 December 2021)

Paris taxi firm suspends use of Tesla cars after fatal accident









						Paris taxi firm suspends use of Tesla cars after fatal accident By Reuters
					

Paris taxi firm suspends use of Tesla cars after fatal accident




					www.investing.com


----------



## rederob (16 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> My argument is that EV sales will ramp up, ultimately replacing ICE sales, but it takes ~20 years to turn over most of the fleet meaning that significant numbers of ICE's will be on the roads past 2040 in practice. Since even if all ICE sales stopped right now, literally today, it would still be early 2040's before they're effectively gone.



As I said, that is not what occurs during a transition phase.  The lifespan of a legacy product is irrelevant and this is proven time and time again in the technology space.  *The only issue is how quickly can NEVs be produced *as their demand is already beyond supply and neither economies of scale, supply chain nor (battery) technology has peaked, so costs will continue to decline while performance improves.


Smurf1976 said:


> Your argument if I've understood it correctly is that we'll see a much faster change with the ICE fleet scrapped well before it wears out and replaced with EV's due to their advantages.



Not quite.  The issues as I see them relate to various government policies relating to air quality ( eg. banning of diesel vehicles already planned and a trend to also ban all other ICEvs from cities in future years) and decarbonisation on one hand, and consumer/industry preference on the other.


Smurf1976 said:


> My response is that whilst I acknowledge it's possible, it's unlikely in practice given that an EV built to a standard that's a direct replacement for an ICE car for most users, which requires that it's suited to highway travel, has a decent battery range and so on, is far too expensive for consumers to choose to scrap perfectly good ICE's and buy a new EV.



My response is that this is plain wrong thinking unless you have an Australian or American mindset and believe long distance highway travel capabilities are the *arbiter *of vehicle purchase decisions.  That has not been the case in Europe for decades and has never been the case in most Asian nations where most of the world's population resides and is becoming increasingly more affluent and mobile. 
The other point you seem to have overlooked is that Tesla's are already superior in most regards to ICEvs at their price point, while the new wave of Chinese NEVs are only more expensive on a vehicle equivalency basis if long range batteries are needed as LFPs are being produced below the magical ICEv melting point of $100/kWh. 
So the question for all purchasers in coming years will be if they decide to buy another ICEv which will have a negligible resale value well before 2030, or buy a superior NEV for about the same price that will also be substantially cheaper to operate on an annual basis and have a decent resale value.


Smurf1976 said:


> There's a potential market for "city" type cars yes, but it's likely a fairly limited one given the consumer preference for SUV's and that even the cheapest ICE car has a range of several hundred km and is more than capable of highway travel.



I think you have not been following the range of NEVs already in production, and the fact the NEV market is nascent so will continue to accommodate market demand as it ramps up production. 


Smurf1976 said:


> That's not an argument against EV's, my point is simply that I'm expecting them to replace ICE cars in the normal manner and that there won't likely be any mass scrapping of ICE's that aren't near end of life.



Your "normal manner" disappeared when Tesla first showed its Cybertruck.  With orders already exceeding 1 million and supply not ramping up for another year, it shows that EV demand is exceptional, and well ahead of the peak benefits of adoption.  That theme was recently repeated with Ford's F-150 Lightning being so popular they closed reservations because at their proposed production rate they would still be filling orders in 2025.
China's NEV data showing NEV sales in excess of 100% year on year is not a normal manner. 
About the only thing normal that I can see is a poor knowledge of NEV developments by many westerners. 
And the question that legacy automakers need to come to grips with is how far ahead will Chinese NEV automakers get before the GMs, Fords and Toyotas of the world begin match them.  Tesla remains in a league of its own, and if they manage to knock out their proposed US$25k model in 2023 then their global vehicle production (not just based on EV adoption)  leadership by 2030 is on the cards.


----------



## JohnDe (16 December 2021)

over9k said:


> Yes. Long range 1500km battery packs exist already, they're just a quarter of a mil each. Hence why rolls royce, bentley etc are going full electric as you can put a 250k battery pack in a 500k car.
> 
> But an everyman 50-100k car... nope. Or at least, not unless you want to lose 6 figures on every sale.




There is no new petrol passenger car capable of 1500km on one tank of Unleaded.

The base Tesla is capable of about 400km on one charge  - 2021 Tesla Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive Auto  $68,175 Indicative Drive Away


----------



## rederob (16 December 2021)

over9k said:


> Yes. Long range 1500km battery packs exist already, they're just a quarter of a mil each. Hence why rolls royce, bentley etc are going full electric as you can put a 250k battery pack in a 500k car.
> 
> But an everyman 50-100k car... nope. Or at least, not unless you want to lose 6 figures on every sale.



Utter nonsense!
BEVs with tested actual 900km range already exist and cost less than AUD$80k.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

over9k said:


> Yes. Long range 1500km battery packs exist already, they're just a quarter of a mil each. Hence why rolls royce, bentley etc are going full electric as you can put a 250k battery pack in a 500k car.
> 
> But an everyman 50-100k car... nope.* Or at least, not unless you want to lose 6 figures on every sale*.



That is one of the most pertinent points, people will be reluctant to spend approx $70k on a car, when most of that cost is apportioned to the battery, which is a consumable and has a defined life expectancy.
Even those who are devotees of E.V's say that the costs of batteries will come down, therefore the purchase price of the vehicle will come down and the residual value of your E.V will plummet  accordingly IMO.
With the current ICE powered cars, most are good for 20 years 250-300k's, so the residual reflects the remaining life expectancy, with E.V's there aren't enough on the road yet to get a realistic feel for the life cycle, so most people will be reluctant until the runs are on the board IMO.
Not many people can afford to pay $70k and find in 5 years time it is worth $10-$20k, I know a person down the road from us had a second hand Toyota Prius for sale for a long time, now they are still driving it obviously there was no interest.
I think it is one of those things that will take a while to gather speed, early uptakers have gone mental and bought all that are available, but I'm guessing once the dust settles, the pensive majority will take a longer term approach.
A bit like the Ford Mustang and the Holden Monaro, when they first came out they sold like hot cakes, then once everyone who absolutely wanted one had one, demand drops to normal levels.
The massive rush to pre order E.V's is similar IMO, those who really want one, just have to have it and have it now. 
By the way, I'm thinking of buying a PHEV or EV in the new year, but I do like new technology.


----------



## rederob (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is one of the most pertinent points, people will be reluctant to spend approx $70k on a car, when most of that cost is apportioned to the battery, which is a consumable and has a defined life expectancy.
> Even those who are devotees of E.V's say that the costs of batteries will come down, therefore the purchase price of the vehicle will come down and the residual value of your E.V will plummet  accordingly IMO.
> With the current ICE powered cars, most are good for 20 years 250-300k's, so the residual reflects the remaining life expectancy, with E.V's there aren't enough on the road yet to get a realistic feel for the life cycle, so most people will be reluctant until the runs are on the board IMO.
> Not many people can afford to pay $70k and find in 5 years time it is worth $10-$20k, I know a person down the road from us had a second hand Toyota Prius for sale for a long time, now they are still driving it obviously there was no interest.
> ...



What's all this rubbish about expensive EVs when they are already being manufactured at ICEv prices?
If you want to look at NEV residual prices try buying a used Tesla today.  While earlier in this thread I priced a used Nissan Leaf, which is really crappy, and it also had a high residual value compared to any ICEv of same age.
Your argument about demand dropping is completely voided by the Tesla car experience.  Tesla cannot get them out fast enough and they are vehicles above our "luxury car" price point.
It's all good and well to have opinions, but how about basing them on what is actually happening today.  
When cities announce bans on FF vehicles, as they are continuing to do, who is going to want to retain their old gas guzzler?
Not only don't the maths add up for ICEvs on affordability at todays prices, but the rationale for continuing to own one will have disappeared well before 2030.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

rederob said:


> What's all this rubbish about expensive EVs when they are already being manufactured at ICEv prices?
> If you want to look at NEV residual prices try buying a used Tesla today.  While earlier in this thread I priced a used Nissan Leaf, which is really crappy, and it also had a high residual value compared to any ICEv of same age.
> Your argument about demand dropping is completely voided by the Tesla car experience.  Tesla cannot get them out fast enough and they are vehicles above our "luxury car" price point.
> It's all good and well to have opinions, but how about basing them on what is actually happening today.
> ...



They are still niche, the uptake is still low in all but countries that provide handouts to subsidies them, Tesla sold 500,000 vehicles World wide in 2020 WOW that's amazing, Ford sold nearly twice as many F series utes just in the U.S.
When regulations force ICE vehicles off the road, obviously the uptake will accelerate, hopefully the EV cost has dropped by then.
I love your passion, but I think it is about three to five years premature personally.
I associate with 'normal' people and non of them are talking about rushing out to buy an EV, they are discussing them, but more in an inquisitive way than a looking to purchase way.
I'll start and take the surge seriously, when you and Bas get an EV, realistically if you two haven't bought one there must be a reason and it wont be not wanting one.


----------



## JohnDe (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> That is one of the most pertinent points, people will be reluctant to spend approx $70k on a car, when most of that cost is apportioned to the battery, which is a consumable and has a defined life expectancy.
> Even those who are devotees of E.V's say that the costs of batteries will come down, therefore the purchase price of the vehicle will come down and the residual value of your E.V will plummet  accordingly IMO.
> With the current ICE powered cars, most are good for 20 years 250-300k's, so the residual reflects the remaining life expectancy, with E.V's there aren't enough on the road yet to get a realistic feel for the life cycle, so most people will be reluctant until the runs are on the board IMO.
> Not many people can afford to pay $70k and find in 5 years time it is worth $10-$20k, I know a person down the road from us had a second hand Toyota Prius for sale for a long time, now they are still driving it obviously there was no interest.
> ...




Aussie Stok Forums is just like an investment; some people research before opening their wallet and mouth, while others jump in head first 

Take a Tesla for a drive, then we can discuss the cost for the battery and all the technology and comfort that it has in it


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Aussie Stok Forums is just like an investment; some people research before opening their wallet and mouth, while others jump in head first



You're spot on there, most people don't have to look in their wallet, to know there isn't enough in there.
While those on a stock forum, probably know they have enough, otherwise they wouldn't be on a stock forum.
By the way, I hope you didn't hurt your head, when you jumped into the Tesla  🤣
On a personal note, as I said in the earlier post, I am interested in a PHEV or EV, so I will be test driving a Tesla.  
Many on here are sounding like reformed smokers and everyone knows how long it takes, before they bore the crap out of everyone.


----------



## rederob (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> They are still niche, the uptake is still low in all but countries that provide handouts to subsidies them, Tesla sold 500,000 vehicles World wide in 2020 WOW that's amazing, Ford sold nearly twice as many F series utes just in the U.S.
> When regulations force ICE vehicles off the road, obviously the uptake will accelerate, hopefully the EV cost has dropped by then.
> I love your passion, but I think it is about three to five years premature personally.



Your points are not relevant.
NEV production cannot match demand, and that equation is actually increasing, while everything about NEVs is continuing to improve.
I'm not sure why you want to overlook the fact that an EV can be turned out in less than half the time of an ICEv and that they are presently capable of being produced at equivalent prices.  These issues have nothing to do with subsidies.
Now you want to dwell on "regulations" rather than affordability, and that's aside from the point @JohnDe has made about the "experience" and which @Value Collector has made here for years.
How many people in this forum are likely to retain their ICEvs knowing they will have a negligible resale value in years to come.  For that matter, how many people here think that their ICEv model (in updated form) will still be manufactured after 2025 (unless you own a Korean or Japanese brand)?
As I said, the only problem for NEVs going forward is getting production to meet demand.  In that regard a possible fly in the ointment is material costs (and supply) for lithium ternary batteries - but not LFPs - and the likely future crossover of hydrogen as a fuel source.
We in Oz have been insulated from the global decarbonisation drive because of a dimwitted government and even more stupid media.  But it's strong in the rest of the world - even America under Biden - and, coupled with the other points I have made, be the major theme of the 2020s IMO *and *based on established trends.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

As usual, my points aren't relevant, because you don't agree with them.
Most take your points on board, it is a shame you don't extend the same courtiusy.
So when are you heading off to pick up the EV? It sounds to me that you would have already done so, with your obvious enthusiasm and religious like fervour.
I can hear the tambourine from over here in Perth.lol
Your post actually supports my reasoning, on a stock forum, where one would assume the members are fairly financially comfortable, you can only mention two obviously well off individuals to support your blather. If the demand was as rampant as you say, many more on the forum would be buying an EV.
As I said, when are you getting yours? If it isn't affordability and you obviously really want one, what's the issue?


----------



## mullokintyre (16 December 2021)

Ok, so all the bits for my EV conversion arrived today.
It will take me a month just to do the inventory and read the installation manual.
I haven't even finished the body work yet.
So much fun to be had.
from what i have gleaned, only Value collector and John De have admitted to owning an EV.
I can now join them, its just that mine does not work (yet).
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Ok, so all the bits for my EV conversion arrived today.
> It will take me a month just to do the inventory and read the installation manual.
> I haven't even finished the body work yet.
> So much fun to be had.
> ...



Keep us posted, maybe start a thread Micks Frankenstein EV. 🤣


----------



## moXJO (16 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Ok, so all the bits for my EV conversion arrived today.
> It will take me a month just to do the inventory and read the installation manual.
> I haven't even finished the body work yet.
> So much fun to be had.
> ...



You want to start a thread on the conversion.


----------



## rederob (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As usual, my points aren't relevant, because you don't agree with them.



Your points don't have a future focus and neglect so many things that have actually happened.
For example, I expect Tesla to sell around 2 million vehicles in 2022
For example, you call NEV's a niche market yet low-paid Chinese can buy new NEVs because there are models from AU$8k upwards without a subsidy which are affordable for countless millions. Moreover there are literally several hundred model variations (there are apparently over 100 companies presently making NEVs, some clearly in very small quantity) so Chinese buyers have an incredibly wide choice for their purchases. 


sptrawler said:


> So when are you heading off to pick up the EV? It sounds to me that you would have already done so, with your obvious enthusiasm and religious like fervour.



Earlier in this thread I outlined the features I am after, and they won't be in models coming to Australia at the price point I'm looking at until around 2024-5.


sptrawler said:


> Your post actually supports my reasoning, on a stock forum, where one would assume the members are fairly financially comfortable, you can only mention two obviously well off individuals to support your blather.



Again, that's a relic of availability in Australia.  Australia is barely worth a mention on the world stage accounting for about 1.5% of annual global sales for all cars in 2020 (of which less than one percent are EVs), and one of the worst NEV rates of any western nation:




sptrawler said:


> If the demand was as rampant as you say, many more on the forum would be buying an EV.



Why?  Most of the models which are selling like hotcakes in China are not available here.  That might change when the Ora and Dolphin models arrive, possibly later next year.  
You might have missed Hyundai's website crash earlier this year when its Ioniq 5 went on sale in limited number.  Hyundai have so few available it's again rationing purchases.  Meanwhile VW has already said it's not particularly interested in bringing NEVs into Australia because the setting here make it a poor decision.
Elsewhere we have the Tesla optimist in Cathie Wood forecasting Tesla as able to capture 20% of all vehicle sales in 2025 which I estimate as around 12 million units.  I think that's a long bow to draw, but she has the wood on me in relation to putting her money where her mouth leads and, as most forecasters have pegged Tesla for at least 1.3 million units in in 2022, the idea of doubling annual output is not foreign.

I am prepared to buy into a good argument, so when you put one up I will be happy to respond.  So far all that's coming my way are regurgitations of old paradigms, yet we are now into a digital world where many former conventions no longer apply.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Your points don't have a future focus and neglect so many things that have actually happened.
> For example, I expect Tesla to sell around 2 million vehicles in 2022
> For example, you call NEV's a niche market yet low-paid Chinese can buy new NEVs because there are models from AU$8k upwards without a subsidy which are affordable for countless millions. Moreover there are literally several hundred model variations (there are apparently over 100 companies presently making NEVs, some clearly in very small quantity) so Chinese buyers have an incredibly wide choice for their purchases.



I said I'm looking at buying an EV, just because I don't want to ram it down people's throats doesn't mean, I don't think they are a sensible option.
I would expect Tesla to sell more cars next year than last year, same as I would expect more electric scooters to sell next year, than last year.
But saying "
Your points don't have a future focus and* neglect so many things that have actually happened.
For example, I expect Tesla to sell around 2 million vehicles in 2022*"
How can that comment make sense? neglect things that have happened, then give an example from next year. 🤣 

I said currently they are a niche market, other than in countries that are heavily subsidising them, China is a market unto itself it can make cars to a price rather than a standard and it can make top of the line cars, just look on Aliexpress to see what is available at a budget price.
What that has to do with what is available in the Western countries, has no bearing on the issue, that currently they are relatively expensive.




rederob said:


> Earlier in this thread I outlined the features I am after, and they won't be in models coming to Australia at the price point I'm looking at until around 2024-5.
> 
> Again, that's a relic of availability in Australia.  Australia is barely worth a mention on the world stage accounting for about 1.5% of annual global sales for all cars in 2020 (of which less than one percent are EVs), and one of the worst NEV rates of any western nation:
> View attachment 134354
> ...



They aren't available in most Western Countries and as even you say, you aren't prepared to buy one yet because it doesn't come with what you require and you are obviously besotted with them.
So as I said currently they are a niche market, it is growing and will continue to do so as regulations, public perceptions, infrastucture and price reductions come in.





rederob said:


> You might have missed Hyundai's website crash earlier this year when its Ioniq 5 went on sale in limited number.  Hyundai have so few available it's again rationing purchases.  Meanwhile VW has already said it's not particularly interested in bringing NEVs into Australia because the setting here make it a poor decision.



That was 500 cars, as I've said this is a stock forum which would tend to attract fairly affluent people, yet only two have bought an EV, if that is reflective of upper middle class Australia, I don't know where you are getting all your excitement from.




rederob said:


> Elsewhere we have the Tesla optimist in Cathie Wood forecasting Tesla as able to capture 20% of all vehicle sales in 2025 which I estimate as around 12 million units.  I think that's a long bow to draw, but she has the wood on me in relation to putting her money where her mouth leads and, as most forecasters have pegged Tesla for at least 1.3 million units in in 2022, the idea of doubling annual output is not foreign.
> 
> I am prepared to buy into a good argument, so when you put one up I will be happy to respond.  So far all that's coming my way are regurgitations of old paradigms, yet we are now into a digital world where many former conventions no longer apply.



You obviously aren't interested in an argument, because all yours just comprise of your future based predictions, mine are based on the state of play as it currently stands.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

Interesting article on EV manufacturers market value.








						Tesla valuation drops below $1 trillion
					

The electric vehicle specialist's market cap has collapsed by more than 20 per cent over the past eight weeks, however it still remains the world's most




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Since peaking at $US1229 ($AU1750) in early November, Tesla stock has fallen by approximately 22 per cent to $US958 ($AU1350).
This equates to a market cap of $962.60 billion ($AU1353) – down from $US1.25 trillion ($AU1.8 trillion) two months ago.
While the collapse is not insignificant, Tesla remains the world’s most valuable car maker by a a factor of almost four (and the sixth most valuable company outright).
Japanese marque Toyota trails in second place with a market cap of $US250 billion ($AU350 billion), while Chinese marque BYD sits in third with a market cap of $US134 billion ($AU190 billion).


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

As I said earlier in the thread, many manufacturers are increasing the cost of their ICE based vehicles, to bring them closer to the EV prices, this could be a good move, but also could backfire IMO.
Chinese manufacturers are dropping the entry price of their EV vehicles e.g the latest MG EV, this will bring them into the same space that the European and Japanese manufacturers are trying to place their ICE vehicles, should make for some interesting sales figures in the future IMO.









						Volkswagen Polo price increase coming, no more base model
					

The Volkswagen Polo is the latest small car to lose its base model and cop a price increase.  The starting price of a Volkswagen Polo is expected to




					www.drive.com.au
				












						2021 Mitsubishi Outlander and Triton prices on the rise
					

Mitsubishi's updated Outlander and Triton models have seen price rises across the board. The 2021 Mitsubishi Outlander range has increased in price, with




					www.drive.com.au
				












						Honda Australia admits increasing prices after switch to 'non-negotiable' sales
					

Honda Australia says it increased RRPs by between $100 and $300, but research shows drive-away prices went up by as much as $5300 – and buyers now have




					www.drive.com.au
				












						Toyota price rises across the range
					

A few models got a price reduction but most increased




					www.drive.com.au
				




From one of the above posts:
After almost half a decade priced from $15,990 drive-away, the new-generation Toyota Yaris is now in excess of $25,000 drive-away, and Hyundai and Ford have dropped their cheapest city cars except for the most expensive “hot hatch” models.


----------



## JohnDe (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting article on EV manufacturers market value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Buy on the dip or sell before the crash, that is the question 




Hopefully all the AussieStockForum investors got in early


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Buy on the dip or sell before the crash, that is the question



I certainly can't see Tesla crashing, the big growth story is space X IMO, reusable rockets is a huge growth sector, that not many will want to get into, unlike putting electric motors on wheels.


----------



## Jeda (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> As I said earlier in the thread, many manufacturers are increasing the cost of their ICE based vehicles, to bring them closer to the EV prices, this could be a good move, but also could backfire IMO.
> Chinese manufacturers are dropping the entry price of their EV vehicles e.g the latest MG EV, this will bring them into the same space that the European and Japanese manufacturers are trying to place their ICE vehicles, should make for some interesting sales figures in the future IMO.
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah car prices are crazy and this is a global issue


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

Jeda said:


> Yeah car prices are crazy and this is a global issue




Second hand prices going up due to supply issues, is a different issue to manufacturers dropping entry price cars from their range, so that the average entry price car becomes more expensive.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Buy on the dip or sell before the crash, that is the question
> 
> View attachment 134364
> 
> ...



Interesting article on Bloomberg, I wonder if China is starting to put the pressure on the Tesla factory in Shanghai? 
From all the encouragement by the Chinese Government, to open slather in State based newspapers etc, interesting times, maybe China is looking at getting a free factory?





__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## rederob (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> *For example, I expect Tesla to sell around 2 million vehicles in 2022*"
> How can that comment make sense? neglect things that have happened, then give an example from next year.



It didn't because I missed adding this link - my bad!
Shanghai is already producing at over 600k/annum and its presently adding additional capacity.


sptrawler said:


> I said currently they are a niche market, other than in countries that are heavily subsidising them,



What, so America isn't now a niche market, and Norway, and the EU generally through emissions incentives?
The 31 EV models currently available in Australia does not satisfy any definition of "niche" that I am aware.   And Europe has twice as many available again.


sptrawler said:


> China is a market unto itself it can make cars to a price rather than a standard and it can make top of the line cars, just look on Aliexpress to see what is available at a budget price.



That might have been true 5 years ago, but not now. You are confusing a segment of China's unregulated vehicle market with their first world production standards for Audi, Mercedes, Volvo and VW to name just a few brands aside from Tesla. 


sptrawler said:


> What that has to do with what is available in the Western countries, has no bearing on the issue, that currently they are relatively expensive.



Really?  NEVs accounted for about 30% of  car sales in Germany recently.  What aspect of can't get enough isn't getting through because you are hung up on purchase price alone being the major inhibitor when total cost of ownership is actually less!


sptrawler said:


> They aren't available in most Western Countries and as even you say, you aren't prepared to buy one yet because it doesn't come with what you require and you are obviously besotted with them.



This isn't a "personal" issue.  NEVs are inevitable, but  some atm are average to crappy.  The electric MG is an example of very average, and the Zoe is an example of crap.


sptrawler said:


> You obviously aren't interested in an argument, because all yours just comprise of your future based predictions, mine are based on the state of play as it currently stands.



Australia has an insignificant role in the NEV market and I can't see how much you have posted relates to global trends.  Your "state of play" and mine are clearly in different ballparks as I have been focusing on the most probable impacts of transition wrt to both producer and purchaser behaviour at a global level.
My NEV interest actually relates more to Australia's role as a supplier of raw materials, particularly copper and nickel.  Although if there was an easy way to buy shares in NIO or BYD I would have done this by now.  
As I see the NEV sector, 2021 became the year of a step change for 2 key reasons.  First is the comparative cheapness of LFP batteries with their DoD advantages over lithium ternary batteries and the fact they are produced at less than the $100/kWh threshold.   Second is the fact that NEV automakers are capable of manufacturing them at similar price points to ICEvs, with only larger battery options pricing them higher.
It is certainly true that future events are not set in concrete and present trends could change markedly for some reason.  I personally don't see the fact that my current car has another 20 years life left in it as a reason to keep that long if fuel isn't readily available and ICEvs are banned from cities.  And the ball I have held back is autonomous driving.


----------



## Jeda (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Second hand prices going up due to supply issues, is a different issue to manufacturers dropping entry price cars from their range, so that the average entry price car becomes more expensive.




Partly the problem another part is that cheap new cars are disappearing like you mention. The problem started a few years ago.


----------



## Value Collector (16 December 2021)

Jeda said:


> Yeah car prices are crazy and this is a global issue




It's affecting the rental car market too, I just booked a rental car for a trip to Florida I am making next year, and the prices are at least 50% higher than what I used to pay prior to covid.


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

rederob said:


> It didn't because I missed adding this link - my bad!
> Shanghai is already producing at over 600k/annum and its presently adding additional capacity.



As I said in my post:
China is a market unto itself it can make cars to a price rather than a standard and it can make top of the line cars, just look on Aliexpress to see what is available at a budget price.
What that has to do with what is available in the Western countries, has no bearing on the issue, that currently they are relatively expensive.



rederob said:


> *What, so America isn't now a niche market*, and Norway, and the EU generally through emissions incentives?
> The 31 EV models currently available in Australia does not satisfy any definition of "niche" that I am aware.   And Europe has twice as many available again.



EV's as a percentage of new cars sold in the U.S is still niche, yes.

_Sales of electric vehicles, including plug-in hybrids, are projected to be *less than 4%* of U.S. sales this year, according to industry forecasters. Of those, all-electric models — such as Teslas — are only at 2.6% of the market, or about 394,000 vehicles, according to LMC.26 Oct 2021_




rederob said:


> That might have been true 5 years ago, but not now. You are confusing a segment of China's unregulated vehicle market with their first world production standards for Audi, Mercedes, Volvo and VW to name just a few brands aside from Tesla.
> 
> Really?  NEVs accounted for about 30% of  car sales in Germany recently.  What aspect of can't get enough isn't getting through because you are hung up on purchase price alone being the major inhibitor when total cost of ownership is actually less!
> 
> This isn't a "personal" issue.  NEVs are inevitable, but  some atm are average to crappy.  The electric MG is an example of very average, and the Zoe is an example of crap.



It obviously is a personal issue, by your absolute fevour on the subject.
Everyone knows that E.V's are inevitable and are a certainty, due to the World wide push.
For most people though, it isn't a religious calling to support the cause in a manic manner, as it obviously is for you.




rederob said:


> Australia has an insignificant role in the NEV market and I can't see how much you have posted relates to global trends.  Your "state of play" and mine are clearly in different ballparks as I have been focusing on the most probable impacts of transition wrt to both producer and purchaser behaviour at a global level.
> My NEV interest actually relates more to Australia's role as a supplier of raw materials, particularly copper and nickel.  Although if there was an easy way to buy shares in NIO or BYD I would have done this by now.



I have quite a lot of financial exposure to battery materials, so I don't understand where you are making the assumptions I don't think that EV's are a real and present happening, I just try and apply a modicum of common sense and logistical analysis to my assumptions.


rederob said:


> As I see the NEV sector, 2021 became the year of a step change for 2 key reasons.  First is the comparative cheapness of LFP batteries with their DoD advantages over lithium ternary batteries and the fact they are produced at less than the $100/kWh threshold.   Second is the fact that NEV automakers are capable of manufacturing them at similar price points to ICEvs, with only larger battery options pricing them higher.
> It is certainly true that future events are not set in concrete and present trends could change markedly for some reason.  I personally don't see the fact that my current car has another 20 years life left in it as a reason to keep that long if fuel isn't readily available and ICEvs are banned from cities.  And the ball I have held back is autonomous driving.



At last something that we can agree on, I will probably have an EV before you, that would be ironic wouldn't it.


----------



## qldfrog (16 December 2021)

moXJO said:


> You want to start a thread on the conversion.



would genuinely be interested in a thread Mike
, if i stay, that would be a project I would be interested..no mistake, a rich kid toy play, but hey, fun is not yet completely forbidden, just taxed


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> would genuinely be interested in a thread Mike
> , if i stay, that would be a project I would be interested..no mistake, a rich kid toy play, but hey, fun is not yet completely forbidden, just taxed



Mick has started one  in the general chat thread.
Micks EV conversion​


----------



## qldfrog (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Mick has started one  in the general chat thread.
> Micks EV conversion​



thanks, I am on my way


----------



## rederob (16 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I have quite a lot of financial exposure to battery materials, so I don't understand where you are making the assumptions I don't think that EV's are a real and present happening, I just try and apply a modicum of common sense and logistical analysis to my assumptions.



I only query your points about where the global NEV sector sits and the rationale for anyone's purchasing decisions into the future.  
I can find no evidence that EVs are expensive per se except where they are sold in small numbers.  For example in Europe SEAT, Renault, VW, Mini Cooper and Ford have affordable offerings between €20k and €25k.  They are not what I would regard value for money, but the point is that Europe is a larger and more "electric" car market than USA.  And while America is late to the party, their BEV sales volumes in 2021 have been very strong (except for GM's substandard Volt):
*BEV **registrations in the U.S. - January-October 2021*​
Tesla Model Y - 134,504 (up 182%; 35.5% of all BEVs)
Tesla Model 3 - 112,314 (up 39%; 29.7% of all BEVs)
Chevrolet Bolt EV/EUV - 23,041 (up 47%)
Ford Mustang Mach-E - 20,518 (new)
Volkswagen ID.4 - 13,787 (new)
Tesla Model S - 12,272 (up 9.4%)
Nissan LEAF - 11,933 (up 100%)
Hyundai Kona Electric - 8,620 (up 265%)
Porsche Taycan (all versions) - 7,818 (up 156%)
Kia Niro EV - 6,749 (up 210%)
other - 26,910
*Total - 378,466 (up 94%)*


----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

As I've said on numerous occasions, EV's are a fact of life whether people like it or not, eventually it will be forced on people as is the vaccine.

But that wont happen quickly and by that I mean in the next 5 years, maybe by 2035 or so, when the infrastructure and the production capability is such that the EV's supply is available, the electrical infrastructure is set up and the supply of ICE vehicles has dwindled to the point of being niche.

That will happen as the EU, UK, Japan and China force the closure of ICE production, sourcing RHD ICE vehicle suppliers will become a problem and by then price parity will have probably been achieved IMO, so it will just be a natural progression.

The SEAT, Renault, VW, Mini Cooper and Ford have affordable offerings between €20k and €25k, are stop gap models which have terrible range and are based on an ICE platform, my guess is smaller city cars will end up being available with the ability to have on street charge or have battery swap format, to cater for high density living.
The U.S has some rather large subsidies in place for EV's, but they are going to be a hard market to crack without increasing regulation and the price of fuel, it is still very cheap there.


----------



## qldfrog (16 December 2021)

I think the focus on price is irrelevant, once you put EVs in the context of the Reset, the aim is NOT to make EV affordable, but  *not *affordable, EVs have to be shared and controlled aka taxi style without the driver
And in that context, the demand will be controlled by the offer: 
aka, you stay home, in front of your screen,and  have a METAVERSE holiday..'cause you can not afford the UBEREV or whatever will dominate by then
Individual freedom of movement on a massive scale was a blip in human history, and will remain so it seem.
an historic reminder:
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/arts/19iht-blume.html  1936 for the first paid holidays, so just before 2nd world war, it then spread in the west bringing as well demand for cars, pushing the women into working position and bringing in immigration to provide the workforce and push productivity/demand



Go back to your kennels peons
Chinese workers will have a few decades extra, we will be back to the bicycles before them


----------



## JohnDe (16 December 2021)




----------



## sptrawler (16 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> I think the focus on price is irrelevant, once you put EVs in the context of the Reset, the aim is NOT to make EV affordable, but  *not *affordable, EVs have to be shared and controlled aka taxi style without the driver
> And in that context, the demand will be controlled by the offer:
> aka, you stay home, in front of your screen,and  have a METAVERSE holiday..'cause you can not afford the UBEREV or whatever will dominate by then
> Individual freedom of movement on a massive scale was a blip in human history, and will remain so it seem.
> ...



Hopefully it doesn't happen in my lifetime. 

I do believe city people will have less and less cars, as population densities increase, Governments will have to increase public transport and autonomous taxis.


----------



## Smurf1976 (16 December 2021)

rederob said:


> My response is that this is plain wrong thinking unless you have an Australian or American mindset and believe long distance highway travel capabilities are the *arbiter *of vehicle purchase decisions.



This is an Australian forum so I'm assuming that Australia is the primary focus in terms of whether or not someone would buy one etc.

That said, even in Europe most cars are more than capable of being driven on a motorway. The market for vehicles which can't reasonably do that isn't zero but it isn't the majority either.



rederob said:


> As I said, that is not what occurs during a transition phase. The lifespan of a legacy product is irrelevant and this is proven time and time again in the technology space.




In the specific case of vehicles we've already had a tech revolution and it hasn't lead to that scenario playing out at all.

Not that long ago the average car came with a drivetrain, wheels, brakes, heater, wipers, lights and a radio and that was about it really. The old Smiths demister was stuck on the rear window if you wanted one.

Then along came electronic fuel injection.

Unleaded petrol and catalytic converters.

Seat belt pre-tensioners and crumple zones.

It was an actual news item when the first mainstream cars with an airbag came out.

Then there's 4 wheel disc brakes.

Power steering.

Air-conditioning.

ABS

Electronic stability control.

Any kind of security system.

Getting even passable performance on a modern crash safety test.

And so on. All these and more were distinct features in the relatively recent past and many simply were not available at any price on any car. Just one generation ago the average car was a featureless death trap compared to even the most basic modern vehicle. It also belched a toxic cocktail out the exhaust and drank petrol like it was free.

None of that improvement saw a mass scrapping of the existing fleet though, it just turned over gradually as it always has. The old gas guzzler that drank 17 litres of Super per 100 km, had no safety features apart from seat belts and didn't even have power steering still lived out its ~20 year lifespan in practice.

Why will EV's be different?

What's going to drive manufacturers to invest in so much production capacity that the price of their cars outright crashes to a point well below that of an equivalent ICE, the entire ICE fleet is replaced quickly, then there's basically no demand for further vehicles for the next decade? That seems an incredibly unlikely scenario.


----------



## qldfrog (16 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> This is an Australian forum so I'm assuming that Australia is the primary focus in terms of whether or not someone would buy one etc.
> 
> That said, even in Europe most cars are more than capable of being driven on a motorway. The market for vehicles which can't reasonably do that isn't zero but it isn't the majority either.
> 
> ...





Smurf1976 said:


> Why will EV's be different?



Because we do not have enough resource on planet level nor wealth in the west to do a one for one switch, so ICE will be forcibly removed and replaced by a smaller number of dearer EVs And these EVs will have a forced obsolescence, .based on good looking attention: your 10y old tesla is not efficient enough or just shitty batteries. ..forcing the removal of what would be affordable second hand fleets


----------



## rederob (17 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> This is an Australian forum so I'm assuming that Australia is the primary focus in terms of whether or not someone would buy one etc.
> That said, even in Europe most cars are more than capable of being driven on a motorway. The market for vehicles which can't reasonably do that isn't zero but it isn't the majority either.



How is that relevant?  NEVs can be driven on highways. 
That said, the trends I have consistently alluded to are not playing out in Australia because we are inconsequential at present and may stay that way until policies are in place for NEV automakers want to sell their vehicles here.  VW is on the record as saying it would be a poor commercial decision to sell in Australia versus Europe, and as the biggest automaker in the world by revenue their stance is not trivial.


Smurf1976 said:


> In the specific case of vehicles we've already had a tech revolution and it hasn't lead to that scenario playing out at all.



So your car has regenerative braking, allows you to control its functions by voice command, and will soon accommodate autonomous driving, does it?


Smurf1976 said:


> None of that improvement saw a mass scrapping of the existing fleet though, it just turned over gradually as it always has. The old gas guzzler that drank 17 litres of Super per 100 km, had no safety features apart from seat belts and didn't even have power steering still lived out its ~20 year lifespan in practice.



I have never mentioned "mass scrapping".  Its not relevant.
By early 2022, based on sales data trends, Teslas in America will be the preferred choice of car in their *luxury *market.  There will be a resale market for their trade ins, but in such an environment it's obvious that these resale values will continue to plummet over time.  The Norwegian experience is likely to be progressively replicated around the world.
The expectation for NEVs is that their sales trend will follow the "S" shaped curve for innovation, so you still may have an ICEV sitting in the garage but, like your old mobile phone, you are unlikely to use it again.


Smurf1976 said:


> What's going to drive manufacturers to invest in so much production capacity that the price of their cars outright crashes to a point well below that of an equivalent ICE, the entire ICE fleet is replaced quickly, then there's basically no demand for further vehicles for the next decade? That seems an incredibly unlikely scenario.



???  I don't understand this.
*Legacy** automakers *have already committed to NEV production.  In the case of BYD they are almost entirely NEV now because their production cost were less than for ICEvs and only battery size options have become their differentiator.
The pivot of any legacy automaker to NEVs will take many years to ramp up to prior ICEv production rates.  And in any case as it stands we do not yet have in the pipeline enough GWh battery manufacturing capacity to meet automaker's planned NEV output, so that's going to be a constraint on the pace of change.  So too will be raw material availability.  In this attached report we are already tracking at or above their "fast forward" projections, so copper supply is going to have to ramp up markedly or NEV production will run the recent path of the chip shortage and take a breather until it does.

There are many forecasts about where NEV numbers will lie in 2025 and 2030, and beyond.  They all have lots of caveats as well.  Uptake rates here could go through the roof after 2025 - or not - just as they could in 2022-23 with the right policy settings.  Irrespective of what happens here,  production of NEVs at scale (which Tesla has yet to fully achieve) will continue to lower costs, battery technology improvement will increase energy densities and also lower costs, and technological advances will continue to make driving safer.


----------



## mullokintyre (17 December 2021)

US car maker GM has run into a few difficulties in its  slow jog to catch up with others in the EV market.
After  having to do a second recall back in July on it Chevvy Bolt EV due to a potential fire risk, it now says it will not restart the Bolt production line until at least february as it  works through the recall repairs on the Bolts sold prior to the recall.
From Detroit News


> General Motors Co.'s Chevrolet Bolt EV and EUV production will remain down through February at the automaker's Orion Assembly plant in Lake Orion, GM said Thursday.
> The automaker has been prioritizing the output of new battery modules for the recalled EVs instead of making new vehicles.
> GM has mostly kept Orion Assembly production down since it announced the recall of more than 141,000 Bolts for battery fire risk in August. The automaker did reopen the plant for a couple of weeks in November to make replacement Bolts for customers awaiting recall repairs.
> 
> ...



That last bit is another example of Vaporware in the EV market.
According to GM news  they plan to launch 30 new EVs by 2025.



> General Motors has been busy at work, following its plan to launch 30 new EVs by 2025. In recent news we’ve learned that the upcoming Chevy Silverado electric pickup truck is set to debut at CES 2022, and that an Ultium-based Chevy Equinox EV crossover is currently in the works. In addition, General Motors President Mark Reuss has also confirmed that a Chevy Blazer EV is also under development, and will also utilize Ultium battery and Ultium drive technology.
> 
> Given its adoption of the Ultium-platform, it’s safe to say that the next-gen Chevrolet Blazer will be quite different than the current-gen model. While no official timeframe has been provided for its introduction or sale date, the Blazer EV could appear as early as 2023 for the 2024 model year.



Lets hope the new Blazer is an improvement on the old one. I drove one for a week when I was last in the US. 
Absolute garbage of a car. 
The Equinox I swapped it for was much better, but not outstanding.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (17 December 2021)

USA police forces -


----------



## Value Collector (17 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Hopefully it doesn't happen in my lifetime.
> 
> I do believe city people will have less and less cars, as population densities increase, Governments will have to increase public transport and autonomous taxis.



It depends what sort of growth happens, in general we have just kept inflating the “suburbs” around the cities fringe, and that kinda of growth requires cars.


----------



## sptrawler (17 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> It depends what sort of growth happens, in general we have just kept inflating the “suburbs” around the cities fringe, and that kinda of growth requires cars.



Most Governments are trying to reverse the urban sprawl and use infill housing and high density living, whether they succeed is another question.




__





						The next wave of urban infill built-form development has arrived
					






					www.housing.wa.gov.au
				











						Walking distance the grail as urban infill continues
					

The University of New South Wales has touted them as the gold standard of urban planning, but moves to create 20-minute suburbs in Western Australia seem slow going.




					thewest.com.au
				




Also as is happening in Perth, the rail network is being extended to the fringe suburbs, to try and encourage the use of public transport.




__





						Yanchep Rail Extension
					





					www.metronet.wa.gov.au
				







__





						Byford Rail Extension
					





					www.metronet.wa.gov.au
				







__





						Thornlie-Cockburn Link
					





					www.metronet.wa.gov.au
				







__





						Morley-Ellenbrook Line
					





					www.metronet.wa.gov.au


----------



## JohnDe (17 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Ok, so all the bits for my EV conversion arrived today.
> It will take me a month just to do the inventory and read the installation manual.
> I haven't even finished the body work yet.
> So much fun to be had.
> ...




Sound like a nice project.



_*MANUAL Electric Porsche 356 Review*

The Electrogenic 356 is no ordinary Porsche restomod. This one might look like the original, but there is one big change: it’s been electrified. Now, in most cases, electrification is carried out in order to improve efficiency, but in the case of this electrogenic 356, electrification has also been applied to improve FUN_


----------



## rederob (17 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Most Governments are trying to reverse the urban sprawl and use infill housing and high density living, whether they succeed is another question.



In relation to this thread, urban density lends itself to smaller cars with minimal driving range requirement.
In this regard small BEVs provide a very affordable solution.
As a brief aside, a friend who lived and worked in Tokyo for 3 years chose not to buy a car (nowhere to park it anyway) and instead used an app that was for all intents and purpose equivalent to a private car hire arrangement.  In a  world not too far away that car in Tokyo will be an NEV that autonomously drives to to the hirer, and by voice command then heads off to their chosen destination.  

An often cited disadvantage of EVs is driving range and duration of recharge on longer trips.  In this regard technology is coming on in leaps and bounds and 5 minute charging times are likely to be part of the BEV future.  These innovations in the NEV market will affect design, production and cost in future as NEV anxieties will disappear and be replaced by digital communication and physical infrastructure that takes the worry out of driving anywhere.


----------



## sptrawler (17 December 2021)

rederob said:


> In relation to this thread, urban density lends itself to smaller cars with minimal driving range requirement.
> In this regard small BEVs provide a very affordable solution.
> As a brief aside, a friend who lived and worked in Tokyo for 3 years chose not to buy a car (nowhere to park it anyway) and instead used an app that was for all intents and purpose equivalent to a private car hire arrangement.  In a  world not too far away that car in Tokyo will be an NEV that autonomously drives to to the hirer, and by voice command then heads off to their chosen destination.
> 
> An often cited disadvantage of EVs is driving range and duration of recharge on longer trips.  In this regard technology is coming on in leaps and bounds and 5 minute charging times are likely to be part of the BEV future.  These innovations in the NEV market will affect design, production and cost in future as NEV anxieties will disappear and be replaced by digital communication and physical infrastructure that takes the worry out of driving anywhere.



The other thing that will no doubt be being looked at, will be inductive charging, where a coil is embedded in a parking space either in a carpark or on the road where applicable.
it would be perfect in places like London, Tokyo etc where off street parking is limited, also if they had an EV taxi rank, everytime they park there it would be automatically taking on a charge.
The greatest advantage that EV's have over ICE vehicles is the ability to integrate technology, electric control ccts and motor control are far easier to modify than controlling the output of an internal combustion engine.
I was involved in a $90m DCS control system upgrade to a thermal process, the easy part was setting up the control loops that operated electrically motorised valves and drives, the hard part was setting up the fuel control as there is an inherent lag in the thermodynamic process and it changes with type and quality of fuel and its delivery system. 
Just had a look, they are already into it.








						World’s first public EV inductive charging trial underway in UK
					

On-street EV charging pioneer Char.gy begins inductive EV charging trial which has the potential to greatly simplify the charging experience.




					thedriven.io


----------



## JohnDe (17 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> The other thing that will no doubt be being looked at, will be inductive charging, where a coil is embedded in a parking space either in a carpark or on the road where applicable.
> it would be perfect in places like London, Tokyo etc where off street parking is limited, also if they had an EV taxi rank, everytime they park there it would be automatically taking on a charge.
> The greatest advantage that EV's have over ICE vehicles is the ability to integrate technology, electric control ccts and motor control are far easier to modify than controlling the output of an internal combustion engine.




Small steps. It will be many years before we see a high voltage 400V-800V) inductive charging system that is efficient, safe and cheap enough to install in cities and towns, in country and urban.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 December 2021)

Its not all bad news for GM.
They have started shipping their elctric version of the Hummer pickup.
FromCNBC


> DETROIT – General Motors is beginning to ship its GMC Hummer EV pickup to customers, marking a major milestone for the automaker and its next-generation electric vehicles.
> 
> The new truck is the first to incorporate the Detroit automaker’s Ultium platform, motors and batteries, all of which GM developed in-house and plans to use as the foundation for dozens of new electric vehicles in the coming years.



I was aware that GM was working on their own EV systems, I was not aware that they had actually started producing them and putting them into vehicles.
Will have to wait until their is some real world experience to see how robust it all is.
But they have at least started delivering to customers.


> “We’re very excited for our customers,” GM President Mark Reuss said Friday during an interview with CNBC’s Phil LeBeau during “Squawk on the Street.”
> 
> GM is investing about $30 billion into the production and development of electric vehicles such as the Hummer pickup and an upcoming SUV variant of the vehicle through 2025. The company on Friday also confirmed the first deliveries of a new electric commercial delivery van to FedEx.




2025 is still a fair way off, so its just more vaporware, but the fact that they have started delivering a Van version of the EV platform to FEDEX means that they join Rivian in having the big logistics companies doing their field testing for them.



> Rivian has made some huge splashes in the automotive market recently, and this one related to their partner Amazon is by no means the smallest. Deliveries of the Rivian EV van will begin to Amazon this month and offer a new way for both companies to be more profitable.
> For Amazon, the electric delivery van or the EDV will offer up to 201-mile (323 km) of all-electric range per charge. It will cut costs in the longer term since it will never require the same type of expensive gasoline fill-ups that ICE vans do. It will also help them save on maintenance costs like oil changes.
> 
> For Rivian, it's proof that they can sell and fulfill big corporate fleet orders. Amazon ordered 100,000 of the vans and has an exclusive deal with Rivian through the next four years. The initial deal called for the order to be fulfilled by 2030, but clearly, Rivian seems ahead of schedule.
> ...



Be interesting to see which of them come out on top.
Was always surprised that Tesla did not announce a EV Van to compete with the other  auto makers in the transport market.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (18 December 2021)

@mullokintyre GM are a lot further along the development road, than many think.









						Cruise launches driverless robotaxi service in San Francisco
					

Employees of Cruise, the self-driving subsidiary of General Motors, will be the first to jump inside one of the company’s autonomous vehicles that operate in San Francisco without a human driver in the front seat. Certain members of the public will also be able to ride, but they won’t be charged...




					techcrunch.com


----------



## rederob (18 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> @mullokintyre GM are a lot further along the development road, than many think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, fully autonomous driving (ie in a passenger only vehicle) is probably more advanced than many think.
Waymo was the first to begin operating anywhere, and now has Phoenix and San Francisco services.
AutoX was the first platform outside of America, and I think is the only other company able to operate in San Francisco 24/7.  But they are growing in China: 

Given the lack of care for following road rules in China, AutoX's software was pretty good way back then (for good reason) , so it wasn't a big jump to become the country's only RoboTaxi service.
It a shame there cannot be more and better collaborations between companies on autonomous driving as it's a bit like the countless billions poured into cancer research by every man and his dog rather than a concentration of effort from industry leaders to win the race.


----------



## JohnDe (18 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> @mullokintyre GM are a lot further along the development road, than many think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




GM has always been one of my favourite vehicle manufactures, I hope they can survive the next 10 years but after the GFC their use of smoke and mirrors increased significantly.



> General Motors had US$110.8b of debt at March 2021, down from US$127.0b a year prior. However, it does have US$23.1b in cash offsetting this, leading to net debt of about US$87.7b.









			https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/we-think-general-motors-nyse%3Agm-is-taking-some-risk-with-its-debt-2021-04-19


----------



## mullokintyre (19 December 2021)

the talk of increased sales of EV'[s in Europe needs to be seen in the context of  continued falls in new vehicle registrations overall.
From Zero Hedge


> European auto stocks are on watch heading into Friday's cash session in the U.S., after ugly November sales data was released from across the pond.
> 
> New registrations plunged 17% in November, marking the fifth month in a row where the region's auto market contracted, according to Bloomberg Friday morning.
> 
> New car registrations came in at 864,119, the worst number since the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association started tracking figures in 1993, the writeup says.



Its been on a downward trend, the slope of that trend increasing sharply. 
Is it possible that who are well off sufficiently that their buying habits are not affected compared to those whose income levels do not reach such lofty heights?
This follows the stats  from China that Auto sales have also fallen for the last seven months.


> Vehicle sales in China fell for the seventh straight month in November, according to newly released data from the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers (CAAM) on Friday.
> 
> Sales were down 9.1% from the year prior as the industry continued to struggle with what is now becoming a year's long semiconductor shortage.
> 
> The country posted total sales of 2.52 million vehicles in November, once again led by sales of new energy and electric vehicles, according to Reuters.



The semi conductor shortage did not seem to stretch to EV's, they must use different  chips.
Mick


----------



## divs4ever (19 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> The semi conductor shortage did not seem to stretch to EV's, they must use different chips.
> Mick



 more likely  they couldn't hit production ( or sales ) projections  , not everyone plans to make one billion  of one model , so am guessing when the dust clears  some will be launching new models to make them appear to be a success


----------



## JohnDe (19 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> Is it possible that who are well off sufficiently that their buying habits are not affected compared to those whose income levels do not reach such lofty heights?
> Mick



 So?


----------



## rederob (19 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> more likely  they couldn't hit production ( or sales ) projections  , not everyone plans to make one billion  of one model , so am guessing when the dust clears  some will be launching new models to make them appear to be a success



Can you translate this into a sense please.


----------



## divs4ever (19 December 2021)

if you pre-order  xxx number of chips but only sell ( or make ) xx number of  vehicles  you still have inventory  and many vehicle makers plan to  have production changes regularly in coming years ( which might no longer need the current model of chip )

 so the 2020 model  might already be obsolete as production is being tooled up for the 2022 model


----------



## mullokintyre (19 December 2021)

According to  This Guy there are around 3,000 microchips in todays car models.
if everything is software controlled, you change the software rather than change the chip.
If they they use a lot of hardwired applications, then that would require redesign of boards.
Its a lot easier to change the software.
Mick


----------



## rederob (19 December 2021)

divs4ever said:


> if you pre-order  xxx number of chips but only sell ( or make ) xx number of  vehicles  you still have inventory  and many vehicle makers plan to  have production changes regularly in coming years ( which might no longer need the current model of chip )
> 
> so the 2020 model  might already be obsolete as production is being tooled up for the 2022 model



The car manufacturers could not get enough chips.  They didn't have inventory because chip suppliers could not meet demand.
Tesla got hold of some old chips and rewrote firmware.  Chinese manufacturers had already been shut out of some supply by US sanctions so had alternative arrangements in place.  BYD had its own chip fab so was unaffected.


----------



## Value Collector (19 December 2021)

Also, I read some where that some of the ICE car manufactures actually canceled orders for chips (and other parts) during the early stages of the pandemic believing demand would be suppressed for a long time, and when demand came back just a few months later they found them selves at the back of the line, where as Tesla continued its production ramp up and never canceled orders.

But off course a car company born in Silicon Valley will have more ability to rewrite code etc and change things on the fly than Detroit.


----------



## divs4ever (19 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> According to  This Guy there are around 3,000 microchips in todays car models.
> if everything is software controlled, you change the software rather than change the chip.
> If they they use a lot of hardwired applications, then that would require redesign of boards.
> Its a lot easier to change the software.
> Mick



 that sounds messing and prone to 'glitches '

 SoC ( System on a Chip ) has been possible for years  ( and the software on a static ram chip )

 maybe the problem is too many 'features ' on the vehicle


----------



## JohnDe (19 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> According to  This Guy there are around 3,000 microchips in todays car models.
> if everything is software controlled, you change the software rather than change the chip.
> If they they use a lot of hardwired applications, then that would require redesign of boards.
> Its a lot easier to change the software.
> Mick




Like an engine can be designed and build for different purposes; torque for pulling and low speed work, or horse power for high speed, both can be adjusted and used for for other functions, their peak performance will not be achieved but they will be capable of the required work. Chips (processors ) are the same; a graphics chip is designed to be 100% efficient for games, movies, video, photos, editing etc, but the software can be re-written to allow the chip to be used for navigation, audio, etc.

Tesla is lucky enough to have an abundance of talented software gurus that they were able to find chips sets not being used and to rewrite the software for them.

Other companies are now following.

My Tesla may have a graphics chip running the infotainment system, which is 100x more powerful than required.


----------



## bluekelah (20 December 2021)

mullokintyre said:


> the talk of increased sales of EV'[s in Europe needs to be seen in the context of  continued falls in new vehicle registrations overall.
> From Zero Hedge
> 
> Its been on a downward trend, the slope of that trend increasing sharply.
> ...



Just USB shortages, been hearing TEslas shipping without USB ports lol....


----------



## qldfrog (20 December 2021)

bluekelah said:


> Just USB shortages, been hearing TEslas shipping without USB ports lol....



So i can not recharge my Tesla with my phone USB portable battery?😊


----------



## JohnDe (20 December 2021)

Another test an assessment of EV's for Police use -



> As well as proving itself capable of serving as an emergency vehicle capable of advanced driving techniques and maintaining plenty of driving range, the Model 3’s use as a police car was also apparently well received.
> 
> Charging the Model 3 during a shift didn’t impact police operations during the past nine-month trial either, Toozs-Hobson (who travelled with police crews during the trial period) reported. Arriving at a Supercharger with 80 miles (128km) range left, a 20 minute top up of power gave the crew another 6-7 hours worth of driving.
> 
> Toozs-Hobson says the trial will continue into 2022 as Tesla continues to work with the National Association of Police Fleet Managers and the Crown Commercial Service, a UK government department that buys equipment and provides services for the public sector in the UK.












						"Mind blowing:" Tesla Model 3 electric car gets great review as police vehicle
					

A Tesla Model 3 electric sedan being used in a trial by UK police has passed with flying colours (and blue lights).




					thedriven.io


----------



## JohnDe (20 December 2021)

Sounds like an investment opportunity, if you know what to grab -
​_Ford CEO says automaker needs EV batteries more than semiconductor chips as electric F-150 reservations hit 200,000 units_​_
Ford Motor needs batteries for its electric vehicles more than semiconductor chips, CEO Jim Farley told CNBC’s Jim Cramer on Thursday.

His comments come after the Detroit automaker shut down customer reservations for an upcoming electric version of the F-150 after they hit 200,000 units, which is more than double Ford’s annual production capacity for the vehicle. The electric F-150 Lightning is scheduled to go on sale in the spring.

“We’ll get the semiconductors, that’s a matter of prioritizing the (battery-electric vehicles) over the (internal combustion engine) vehicles,” Farley said during a webcast for the CNBC Investing Club with Jim Cramer. “The issue is batteries. That’s what we have to solve.”

Farley said the automaker is “completely oversubscribed with our battery electric vehicles,” specifically the F-150 Lightning. He told CNBC last week that Ford was doing “whatever it takes” to double production capacity for electric F-150 pickup.

Farley’s comments may surprise many as the automaker continues to deal with a global shortage of semiconductor chips that has wreaked havoc this year on the global automotive industry.

*Automakers like Ford are increasingly striking deals to source materials and parts for electric vehicles, specifically batteries, to potentially avoid supply chain interruptions like the chips shortage has highlighted.
*_
*There’s worry by some Wall Street analysts that demand for EVs will exceed the expected supply of critical materials such as lithium, creating a problem for automakers to produce the vehicles.









						Ford CEO says automaker needs EV batteries more than semiconductor chips as electric F-150 reservations hit 200,000 units
					

Ford needs batteries for its electric vehicles more than semiconductor chips, CEO Jim Farley told CNBC's Jim Cramer on Thursday.




					www.cnbc.com
				



*


----------



## qldfrog (24 December 2021)

This thread is often linked with power production.how to charge EV with green power,etc
Nuclear in our new grenwash world is touted by some as the answer here.
@sptrawler ?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ompromise-on-nuclear-power-exit-idUSKBN2J20JO
So Japan, Germany, and now Belgium getting fully out of nuclear power.
I think this says it all


----------



## mullokintyre (24 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Another test an assessment of EV's for Police use -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I liked it better in the old days when they had a Zephyr 6 and you had a chance of outrunning them.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> This thread is often linked with power production.how to charge EV with green power,etc
> Nuclear in our new grenwash world is touted by some as the answer here.
> @sptrawler ?
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ompromise-on-nuclear-power-exit-idUSKBN2J20JO
> ...



Interesting Belgium are talking about replacing them with gas, sounds to me that a decision made in 2003, is coming home to haunt them.


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2021)

frugal.rock said:


> A Flotilla of U.S. LNG Cargoes Is Headed to Fuel-Starved Europe
> By Sergio Chapa
> 23 December 2021, 04:53 GMT+11
> Bloomberg



@qldfrog  there certainly are some mixed messages, it must be hard for the locals to make sense of it IMO.


----------



## Jeda (24 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> This thread is often linked with power production.how to charge EV with green power,etc
> Nuclear in our new grenwash world is touted by some as the answer here.
> @sptrawler ?
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ompromise-on-nuclear-power-exit-idUSKBN2J20JO
> ...



Not sure about Germany & Belguim, I do know that Japan is increasing nuclear energy 

Nuclear Power in Japan​_(Updated December 2021)_


*Japan needs to import about 90% of its energy requirements.*
*Its first commercial nuclear power reactor began operating in mid-1966, and nuclear energy has been a national strategic priority since 1973. This came under review following the 2011 Fukushima accident but has been confirmed.*
*Up until 2011, Japan was generating some 30% of electricity from its reactors and this was expected to increase to at least 40% by 2017. The plan is now for at least 20% by 2030, from a depleted fleet.*
*The first two reactors restarted in August and October 2015, with a further eight having restarted since. 16 reactors are currently in the process of restart approval.*
*





						Nuclear Power in Japan | Japanese Nuclear Energy - World Nuclear Association
					

Nuclear energy has been a national strategic priority for Japan since 1973. Japan's reactors provide some 30% of the country's electricity and this is expected to increase to at least 40% by 2017. Japan has a full fuel cycle set up, including enrichment and reprocessing used fuel for recycle.




					world-nuclear.org
				



*


----------



## qldfrog (24 December 2021)

Jeda said:


> Not sure about Germany & Belguim, I do know that Japan is increasing nuclear energy
> 
> Nuclear Power in Japan​_(Updated December 2021)_
> 
> ...



so away from the I boost my uranium shares:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...first-nuclear-reactor-since-2018-amid-hurdles
so 10 out of 33 which were operating pre fukushima
these restarts started in 2015 took 7y for 10; now another 16 supposedly started process at best, they will have 26 out of 33 a decade ago..not exactly a booming trades..and shutting down in germany and Belgium
looking at france:
"PARIS, Jan 21 (Reuters) - France plans to shut down 14 nuclear reactors by 2035, starting with two at Fessenheim this year, according to French government's public consultation document on energy " 
in the US:
*Following a 30-year period in which few new reactors were built, it is expected that two more new units will come online soon after 2020, these resulting from 16 licence applications made since mid-2007 to build 24 new nuclear reactors.*
well these 2 started construction in 2013..yeap 7y+ ago
All that to say I genuinely doubt we will see new reactors in australia anytime soon..and few overall addition in the west ..
So Uranium rise is more related to china park expansion and the fact most of the old nuke heads have now been recycled into hot water in kettles..my choice indeed
Even imagining Australia building a nuclear reactor wo any IP, brain and the usual BS red green tape which makes road construction taking in years here what it takes in month in china.......
Really a stretch of imagination IMHO.
So we need to look elsewhere for charging these EV:
option 1: everyone on bike and leaving by the factory  in a tiny home(The Reset)
option 2: storage of ample PV: hydro, h2 cells, hooked EV
option 3, do nothing and let Australia collapse during heat heatwave or cold front in the south  while blaming the Russians(can not blame China, too powerful), or blaming LNP/ALP based on who is talking


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2021)

My guess is the only way nuclear generation will flourish, is if they perfect SMR's, that are built at the factory then shipped to site and re assembled.
The main issue is the amount of generation required to supply a true clean future, it isnt rocket science, to replace all fossil fueled generation, all fossil fueled industry, all fossil fueled transportation, all  fossil fueled heating in the World, is a lot of energy.
If people think that can be done, with solar panels and wind farms, well I think they have little understanding of the scale of the issue.


----------



## rederob (24 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> If people think that can be done, with solar panels and wind farms, well I think they have little understanding of the scale of the issue.



Actually that scale was worked out long ago, and is a very small fraction of the the global footprint.
In simple maths terms one tenth of Australia's land and sea area is enough to presently meet global energy needs.
That's why if we invest heavily now in a hydrogen economy we can capture international markets ahead of potential competitors - principally the Middle East - and become greener and wealthier than Norway is today.


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Actually that scale was worked out long ago, and is a very small fraction of the the global footprint.
> In simple maths terms one tenth of Australia's land and sea area is enough to presently meet global energy needs.
> That's why if we invest heavily now in a hydrogen economy we can capture international markets ahead of potential competitors - principally the Middle East - and become greener and wealthier than Norway is today.



Well that is good to know, so by 2050 we should nail it, maxed out population and fully clean energy, I cant see what everyones worried about.









						How to Sustainably Feed 10 Billion People by 2050, in 21 Charts
					

Can we feed the world without destroying it? New research reveals 22 steps to a sustainable food future.




					www.wri.org


----------



## mullokintyre (24 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Well that is good to know, so by 2050 we should nail it, maxed out population and fully clean energy, I cant see what everyones worried about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The miracle of the Charts and Fissures.
Mick


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Nuclear in our new grenwash world is touted by some as the answer here.



The big problem with nuclear is the financial one.

Technically it works, in theory it can be done safely, but on the financial side investing in nuclear power is the closest thing you can do to buying shares in socialism. It's as tied to government as the military or welfare are.

That said, well pragmatically it's going to play a role going forward for the foreseeable future so no point pretending otherwise. Invest accordingly.


----------



## rederob (24 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I cant see what everyones worried about.



Santa is spreading covid?
Telltale signs with Rudolph.


----------



## sptrawler (24 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The big problem with nuclear is the financial one.
> 
> Technically it works, in theory it can be done safely, but on the financial side investing in nuclear power is the closest thing you can do to buying shares in socialism. It's as tied to government as the military or welfare are.
> 
> That said, well pragmatically it's going to play a role going forward for the foreseeable future so no point pretending otherwise. Invest accordingly.



I think the last couple of years has shown how little money has to do with anything, if it is decided nuclear is the clean energy answer, money will be the least of the problems, just add zero's to the central bank spread sheet. Lol
If h2 is the answer, IMO nuclear is the go eventually, as with everything the technology will improve as the demand calls for it.


----------



## divs4ever (24 December 2021)

Tesla to Halt Games on Infotainment Screens in Moving Cars​








						Tesla to Halt Games on Infotainment Screens in Moving Cars
					

DETROIT—Under pressure from U.S. auto safety regulators, Tesla has agreed to stop allowing video games to be played ...




					www.theepochtimes.com


----------



## Sean K (24 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The big problem with nuclear is the financial one.
> 
> Technically it works, in theory it can be done safely, but on the financial side investing in nuclear power is the closest thing you can do to buying shares in socialism. It's as tied to government as the military or welfare are.
> 
> That said, well pragmatically it's going to play a role going forward for the foreseeable future so no point pretending otherwise. Invest accordingly.




Has anyone done an analysis on why it's so expensive? Hundreds of these things have now been built and you'd think the more that were produced the costs would come down.

Is it just the regulatory hurdles and safety requirements?

Surely not just labour costs to operate. I mean, Homer wasn't the sharpest tool.


----------



## Ann (24 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The big problem with nuclear is the financial one.
> 
> Technically it works, in theory it can be done safely, but on the financial side investing in nuclear power is the closest thing you can do to buying shares in socialism. It's as tied to government as the military or welfare are.
> 
> That said, well pragmatically it's going to play a role going forward for the foreseeable future so no point pretending otherwise. Invest accordingly.




That is the most depressing thing I think you have ever said Smurf and I respect everything you say. I have no problem with socialism I grew up with it as in the State and Commonwealth owned the banks, the infrastructure, public transport, roads on and on. It worked pretty well. Then came MacBank and it all seemed to fall apart. Anyhoo...I hate the thought of bloody nuclear power. An explosion at a gas/coal plant won't cause an area to be evacuated for the next X thousands (?) of years.


----------



## Sean K (24 December 2021)

Ann said:


> I hate the thought of bloody nuclear power. An explosion at a gas/coal plant won't cause an area to be evacuated for the next X thousands (?) of years.




I'm really interested in this perspective. There have been some nuclear accidents that have killed a few people and large areas of land have been destroyed and uninhabitable. But, has coal, gas, dung, biofuels, wind, solar, and future hydrogen been any better or worse off?

I think Michael Shellenberger did a bit on this a few years ago and nuclear proved to be much safer and destroy far less of the environment on a power to weight ratio than any other fuel source. 

I think I remember that from a TED Talk he did about a decade ago. Maybe it was crap.


----------



## Ann (24 December 2021)

Sean K said:


> I think Michael Shellenberger did a bit on this a few years ago and nuclear proved to be much safer and destroy far less of the environment on a power to weight ratio than any other fuel source.
> 
> I think I remember that from a TED Talk he did about a decade ago. Maybe it was crap.




....or an attempt at propaganda. The nuclear power cabal (for want of a better description) has been trying desperately to get Nuclear power back onto the agenda. I have often thought they were the original funders of the GW promoters before they managed to get some of the eco-warriors like the Sierra Club onboard. Although in the early piece the Sierra club said they supported Nuclear power but now they have backed away from that, clearly realizing they need to keep that under wraps for the moment. 

I have no doubt that Nuclear Power are the players and funders behind this Global Warming garbage. When it all started years ago I thought....hello, hello, this must be the bloody Nuclear bastards trying to get a foot-hold. Now guess what!


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 December 2021)

Sean K said:


> Has anyone done an analysis on why it's so expensive?



The precise details are outside my area of knowledge but what I do know is that the issues are on the construction side not once it's built, and they relate directly to nuclear reactors as the heat source.

I say that since nuclear plants already built are economic to operate. Once it's built and the cost of construction isn't a factor in decision making since it can't be recovered then, from a purely economic perspective, it's fairly cheap to operate hence most facilities once build do end up being run for their useful lifespan unless there's either some major unforeseen problem or a political decision to close it. It's just that the $ billions spent during the construction phase will never be recovered from the sale of electricity on a commercial basis.

Apart from the heat source, a nuclear plant is technically much the same as a coal-fired plant. Steam turbine, condenser, alternator etc plus all the associated bits and pieces - control room, cooling tower to recycle the water if required, electrical switchyard, incidental things like workshop and stores, etc.

The key difference is in the means of producing the steam. A coal fired boiler with associated fuel handling, stack (chimney) etc versus a nuclear reactor. That's the key difference between the two.

As for the environment, it really depends on what you're measuring. Eg a wind farm or hydro undeniably do have an impact but it's a very different sort of impact compared to fossil fuels or nuclear. So it depends on the detail of what's considered to be most important - land use, CO2, toxic waste etc. What's best for one tends to be less than ideal for another.


----------



## SirRumpole (24 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Technically it works, in theory it can be done safely, but on the financial side investing in nuclear power is the closest thing you can do to buying shares in socialism. It's as tied to government as the military or welfare are.




But you can't buy shares in Snowy Hydro either ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 December 2021)

SirRumpole said:


> But you can't buy shares in Snowy Hydro either ?



What I mean is that if you invest in nuclear then your profits are ultimately coming from taxpayers or the printing press, that is government, and the key decisions about what happens are also being made by government not the company. 

It's not literally owning shares in government but it's about as close as you can get.


----------



## qldfrog (24 December 2021)

Elon Musk was stating that a solar farm the size of a power plant + its exclusion zone produce more or as much than a nuclear power..And guess what, might not be wrong;  
Add construction cost/energy, ongoing treatment of waste etc
A bit far from EV but we all agree that EV and grid are not split table.
Let me check that


----------



## Value Collector (24 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> What I mean is that if you invest in nuclear then your profits are ultimately coming from taxpayers or the printing press, that is government, and the key decisions about what happens are also being made by government not the company.
> 
> It's not literally owning shares in government but it's about as close as you can get.



I wouldn't describe it as owning shares in the government, share holders (and the debt holders) would be being paid a return for the capital they contribute, but where you are correct is that a nuclear power plant would have alot of government control, and the government would be taking some risk, because there is no insurance company in the world that could provide full comprehensive insurance to a nuclear power plant, so the tail risk would need to be underwritten by the government, who would probably want something out of the deal.

Buying government bonds is certainly a form of "investing in the Government", but it is certainly not socialism. It might fund social schemes such as hospitals, but its not socialism, and neither would a nuclear power plant, at least not any more than a Toll road owner is socialism, in fact its kind of the opposite of socialism.


----------



## Value Collector (24 December 2021)

Tesla Model 3 owners got quite a large update to the cars software today, Which also included a little Xmas Holiday bonus light show.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> Buying government bonds is certainly a form of "investing in the Government", but it is certainly not socialism. It might fund social schemes such as hospitals, but its not socialism, and neither would a nuclear power plant, at least not any more than a Toll road owner is socialism, in fact its kind of the opposite of socialism.



The reason I see it as socialism is simply that it's intentional wealth redistribution.

Taking the UK's Hinkley Point C (under construction) as an example:

Plant revenue per unit of production once complete is as agreed with government and indexed to inflation.

Debt acquired by the company to finance the project is guaranteed by government.

Insurance is provided by government at taxpayers' expense over and above the plant's agreed revenue per unit of output.

There is no intention that the operation will be profitable, a point known and accepted prior to commencement.

The major risk carried by investors is that of government defaulting on the deal either outright or by some backdoor method.

I'll accept technically perhaps that isn't socialism but it sure isn't something free market capitalism would do without the taxpayer funds being available. 

Cost of the plant is expected to come in at about £22 billion so just over $40 billion AUD.

Getting a fair way away from EV's directly however....


----------



## rederob (24 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> Cost of the plant is expected to come in at about £22 billion so just over $40 billion AUD.
> 
> Getting a fair way away from EV's directly however....



Nah, the power plant is just a more expensive electric vehicle.


----------



## Value Collector (25 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The reason I see it as socialism is simply that it's intentional wealth redistribution.
> 
> Taking the UK's Hinkley Point C (under construction) as an example:
> 
> ...



It's still 100% capitalism, even though it is not totally "free market", capitalism doesn't have to be a free market in all situations, it a bit like a five cent piece is a coin, but not all coins are 5 cent pieces.

Basically if the nations productive capital is mostly held by private entities on a for profit basis, its capitalism, even some prisons in the USA are privately owned, as are parts of the military, thats a move towards capitalism, not away from it, But thats a chat for another thread.


----------



## qldfrog (25 December 2021)

average capacity of a nuclear plant "444 civilian fission reactors in the world, with a combined electrical capacity of 396 gigawatt (GW" so tad below 1GW per reactor with 85% use due to maintenance, etc
ok so at most one GW
solar energy per sqr meter in australia 1.5 MWh (https://arena.gov.au/assets/2013/08/Chapter-10-Solar-Energy.pdf)
from that source:I quote"
_Australia receives an average of 58 million PJ of solar 
radiation per year (BoM 2009), approximately 10 000 
times larger than its total energy consumption of 5772 
PJ in 2007–08 (ABARE 2009a). Theoretically, then, if 
only 0.1 per cent of the incoming radiation could be 
converted into usable energy at an efficiency of 10 per 
cent, all of Australia’s energy needs could be supplied 
by solar energy. Similarly, the energy falling on a solar
farm covering 50 km by 50 km would be sufficient to 
meet all of Australia’s electricity needs"_
so 2500sqr km receiving 5772 PJ means 1PJ per 0.4 sqr km
1PJ is roughly 275GW so a 1GW reactor could be replaced by solar farm  0.4/275 sqr km- or 1455sqr meter of panels!!
That seems ridiculously small:
a nuclear plant or 39*39m of panels?
If they did not include panel efficiency (low at 20% max..let's use 10%
just 10 small 40x40 meters of  PV farm would produce the same amount of energy as a nuclear reactor here in Oz and use less floor space
That is a lot of Tesla charged....


----------



## sptrawler (25 December 2021)

Back on thread, the uptake of EV's in China continues to accelerate.









						Electric car crystal ball gazing in China as the new year dawns
					

Next year is shaping up to be a banner one, particularly in China’s electric-vehicle segment.




					www.mining.com


----------



## sptrawler (27 December 2021)

Obviously this guy couldnt wait for batteries to get cheaper. Lol



			https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/26/22853573/tesla-model-s-explosion-repair-bill&ved=2ahUKEwjJ2uSQ7YL1AhUqTGwGHa5WAgkQ0PADKAB6BAgLEAE&usg=AOvVaw0sYN2mvzX_86BRUH3FimyD


----------



## qldfrog (27 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Obviously this guy couldnt wait for batteries to get cheaper. Lol
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/26/22853573/tesla-model-s-explosion-repair-bill&ved=2ahUKEwjJ2uSQ7YL1AhUqTGwGHa5WAgkQ0PADKAB6BAgLEAE&usg=AOvVaw0sYN2mvzX_86BRUH3FimyD



I saw thaf oneand thought..should i share it?
Then had a bit of pity for the innovators.i do actually like EVs...


----------



## sptrawler (27 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> I saw thaf oneand thought..should i share it?
> Then had a bit of pity for the innovators.i do actually like EVs...



When a bloke set fire to a Jeep because he was pizzed off, it was all over the news, I guess a different set of journalistic rules get applied when it is a Tesla. Lol


----------



## qldfrog (27 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> When a bloke set fire to a Jeep because he was pizzed off, it was all over the news, I guess a different set of journalistic rules get applied when it is a Tesla. Lol



Actually, what the guy did was getting paid for blowing it up, otherwise the most money earning option vs buying a new set of batteries or trading his anchor vs a soon to be anchor


----------



## qldfrog (27 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Actually, what the guy did was getting paid for blowing it up, otherwise the most money earning option vs buying a new set of batteries or trading his anchor vs a soon to be anchor



Pure $analysis.i doubt he or anyone else will be able to do it again...


----------



## wayneL (28 December 2021)

Listen only if you don't mind being ripped a new @55h0le


----------



## JohnDe (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Listen only if you don't mind being ripped a new @55h0le





Sorry, but I can't watch this guy. His attempt of extreme Aussie ockerism grates me to the core. His humorous whinging is overshadowed by his anger at his former employers. His videos are always twice as long as they should be, and his occasional attempts at click bait using woman is amateurish.

Show me someone with less of a chip on their shoulder, please.


----------



## wayneL (28 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Sorry, but I can't watch this guy. His attempt of extreme Aussie ockerism grates me to the core. His humorous whinging is overshadowed by his anger at his former employers. His videos are always twice as long as they should be, and his occasional attempts at click bait using woman is amateurish.
> 
> Show me someone with less of a chip on their shoulder, please.



Well, I have a few challenges with some of his messages too.

However I think his arguments are mostly objective... mostly.

In my opinion one must look past ones challenges with the delivery, and look at the objective information.

I for one, find the delivery amusing... Mostly because not being an ocker, the piss taking is right on the ******* mark.

Occasionally I can even see myself in there and have a good laugh.

So, dude, if you have an objective argument with what he is saying, please present it.


----------



## Value Collector (28 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Sorry, but I can't watch this guy. His attempt of extreme Aussie ockerism grates me to the core. His humorous whinging is overshadowed by his anger at his former employers. His videos are always twice as long as they should be, and his occasional attempts at click bait using woman is amateurish.
> 
> Show me someone with less of a chip on their shoulder, please.



I agree, he is super hard to watch, and the times I have pushed through his BS intros to try and find out what he is actually saying I found all his arguments either have rather simple rebuttals or are just nonsense straw man arguments that we have talked about on this thread a million times.

Of course he appeals to the kind of folks that like the status quo, and fear change though.

I can already tell from the intro that he is going to go with the argument that because something isn't perfect, its not worth making a change, eg unless something is completely zero fossil fuels and zero impact to make, then its not worth changing from the 100% fossil fuel models.

They normally want to focus on the steadily reducing coal used to charge EV's, rather than the rapidly growing amounts of Renewables used, they want to focus on the impacts of mining the materials used to make EV's, but choose to ignore the impacts of making regular cars and their fuel, and the fact that the battery materials are recycled and may end up being used for generations.

-------------------------------
*If I had to make a guess, I believe this guys biggest problem with Tesla is that it is messing with his core business that he advertises at the start of every video, he "helps you get new cars cheap" but he can't help you buy a Tesla, because they are direct to consumer, So he can't earn a fee from a **Tesla sale.*


----------



## Value Collector (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> So, dude, if you have an objective argument with what he is saying, please present it.



This video addresses his claims, and has links to the actual scientific studies in the description.


----------



## JohnDe (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Well, I have a few challenges with some of his messages too.
> 
> However I think his arguments are mostly objective... mostly.
> 
> ...




Well I don't know how anyone can claim to be or not to be an Ocker. It is usually a term given to you, not claimed.

I happen to know quite a few through my business and my travels, none are so grating as one that tries too hard.


----------



## wayneL (28 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> This video addresses his claims, and has links to the actual scientific studies in the description.




Some great points in a country by country analysis. But I think the pertinent point as far as the video is concerned, is in relation to Australia.

if we are genuine about reducing overall emissions then we must look at the situation here, and not in Iceland or wherever. Therefore,EVs may increase emissions in our country even if they would reduce emissions in another country.

That would be counterproductive.

As ever, the situation is always far more complicated than the narrative suggests, notwithstanding arguments about the actual narrative.

Thusly, Cadogan's argument as far as Australia is concerned is probably spot on.


----------



## wayneL (28 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> Well I don't know how anyone can claim to be or not to be an Ocker. It is usually a term given to you, not claimed.
> 
> I happen to know quite a few through my business and my travels, none are so grating as one that tries too hard.



Noted, though my request for objective argument, objective argument is completely absent.


----------



## JohnDe (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Noted, though my request for objective argument, objective argument is completely absent.




As I explained in detail above "Sorry, but I can't watch this guy........Show me someone with less of a chip on their shoulder, please."


----------



## wayneL (28 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> As I explained in detail above "Sorry, but I can't watch this guy........Show me someone with less of a chip on their shoulder, please."



So your argument is subjective rather than objective. Or, you are not addressing the objective points raised in the video.

"I don't like John cadogan, therefore he must be wrong”?


----------



## JohnDe (28 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I agree, he is super hard to watch, and the times I have pushed through his BS intros to try and find out what he is actually saying I found all his arguments either have rather simple rebuttals or are just nonsense straw man arguments that we have talked about on this thread a million times.
> 
> Of course he appeals to the kind of folks that like the status quo, and fear change though.
> 
> ...




Yes, I began watching his info videos since he first started on YouTube, but each one gets harder and harder. I can see why he could not continue with his past employers. I have breaks from him and try again but he is pretty consistent with his grating profile. I think that if he didn't try so hard to be controversial he cold be a great source of information. Instead he posts videos that are 15 to 20  minutes long but only give 5 minutes of useful information. Life is too short too short for his type of click bait.


----------



## JohnDe (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> So your argument is subjective rather than objective. Or, you are not addressing the objective points raised in the video.
> 
> "I don't like John cadogan, therefore he must be wrong”?




If you enjoy having nails scraped against a blackboard, you are a stronger person than me. I have watched him from day one and I watched him not long ago, I now watch him on an irregular basis.

I refuse to give him an income by watching his grating ‘try too hard’ videos that make fun of a particular societal type of Aussie person.


----------



## Value Collector (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> if we are genuine about reducing overall emissions then we must look at the situation here, and not in Iceland or wherever. Therefore,EVs may increase emissions in our country even if they would reduce emissions in another country.



Ev's won't increase our emissions here though, we actually produce large amounts of renewable energy in Australia, we would be better than the Colorado example in the video, where Ev's reduced the emissions to the equivalent of a car going 20km per litre.

Check on the link below, it shows live data of the fuel source used for Australian electricity, it up dates every 5 mins.

As I type this Tasmania and SA are 100% renewable, Victoria and NSW are over 50% renewable, Western Australia is 30% renewable and the sun is setting on Queensland so its dropped to about 20% renewable, but its also importing from NSW who as I said are 50% renewable at the moment

Also, Often Vic, SA and NSW produce large amounts of wind throughout the night during off peak hours when a large amount od EVS would be charging, having a solid amount of EV demand through out the night to absorb the excess wind produced encourages more renewable investments.

https://www.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/australian-electricity-statistics/


----------



## wayneL (28 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> If you enjoy having nails scraped against a blackboard, you are a stronger person than me. I have watched him from day one and I watched him not long ago, I now watch him on an irregular basis.
> 
> I refuse to give him an income by watching his grating ‘try too hard’ videos that make fun of a particular societal type of Aussie person.



I give @Value Collector kudos for at least addressing the points made.

But you are just indulging in ad homonym fallacy, in spite of my repeated requests for some objective argument.

Step up to the plate, mate.


----------



## JohnDe (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> I give @Value Collector kudos for at least addressing the points made.
> 
> But you are just indulging in ad homonym fallacy, in spite of my repeated requests for some objective argument.
> 
> Step up to the plate, mate.




As I said previously, I refuse to give an income to a person that makes fun of others.

If you have any credit you would stop trying to bait me and would instead offer up another source. However, we all know that you can find no other source for your argument, so instead try to bait me to hide the lack of an argument.

Give me a credible source, I'll read and watch anything but I will not give that guy an income to reward his attacks on  a particular Aussie that he, and it looks like you also, see ripe for attack.


----------



## rederob (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> if we are genuine about reducing overall emissions then we must look at the situation here, and not in Iceland or wherever. Therefore,EVs may increase emissions in our country even if they would reduce emissions in another country.



Completely false.
No EVs are made in Australia, so the only CO2 attributable to an EV will be from the energy source.


wayneL said:


> As ever, the situation is always far more complicated than the narrative suggests, notwithstanding arguments about the actual narrative.



It's actually very simple.

EV manufacture is less energy intensive for a  vehicle's body than an equivalent ICEv, but more effort goes into battery manufacture.
The life cycle of an EV delivers a better CO2 outcome than for an ICEv in every circumstance



As has also been raised many times in this thread, health and safety benefits are in the billions for Australia alone.


----------



## wayneL (28 December 2021)

JohnDe said:


> As I said previously, I refuse to give an income to a person that makes fun of others.
> 
> If you have any credit you would stop trying to bait me and would instead offer up another source. However, we all know that you can find no other source for your argument, so instead try to bait me to hide the lack of an argument.
> 
> Give me a credible source, I'll read and watch anything but I will not give that guy an income to reward his attacks on  a particular Aussie that he, and it looks like you also, see ripe for attack.



I'm baiting you? 

LMAO!

I posted a video from YouTube for information and consideration. You have a challenge with the author for whatever reason. That's quite okay, it's allowed, but your whole argument is that you don't like the author... Your argument coming subsequent to me posting a video.

Yet you think that I am baiing you?

Dude. I'm quite happy to have my ass handed to me in debates here. I have had my ass handed to me on several occasions before. And that's ok, that's how I choose to learn, by putting up arguments and being prepared to lose the debate... And if I lose I will quite happily change my mind.

However the argument that is least likely to make me change my mind, is that xyz is a cnut and shouldn't be listened to by virtue that someone doesn't like him.

That is just juvenile.

So when you have an actual objective argument, I will be quite prepared to listen, bruh... Even if it means that you suffer the indignity of having to listen to Johnny Cadogan.


----------



## rederob (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Dude. I'm quite happy to have my ass handed to me in debates here. I have had my ass handed to me on several occasions before. And that's ok, that's how I choose to learn, by putting up arguments and being prepared to lose the debate... And if I lose I will quite happily change my mind.



Your habit has been to put the credible posters on ignore as your logic skills are consistently shown to be poor. 


wayneL said:


> However the argument that is least likely to make me change my mind, is that xyz is a cnut and shouldn't be listened to by virtue that someone doesn't like him.
> That is just juvenile.



Yet that's your practice!


wayneL said:


> So when you have an actual objective argument, I will be quite prepared to listen, bruh... Even if it means that you suffer the indignity of having to listen to Johnny Cadogan.



Isn't the point that the argument should be yours, and you merely use a medium - Cadogan in this instance - to present it in more detail?
If that is the case, then you have been provided information that renders his points as meritless.  So will you change your mind?


----------



## JohnDe (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> I'm baiting you?
> 
> LMAO!
> 
> ...




'Dude' it's simple, if the argument that you have continued to push for the past few posts holds water then you will be able to show more than just one single example.

Show me another example, it's a simple request. Many intellectual debates can offer more than one example, otherwise it's just a personal opinion with no substance


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> EVs may increase emissions in our country even if they would reduce emissions in another country.



You'd need an ICE with petrol / diesel consumption under 2.5 litres / 100km to match an EV charged from the grid using 1 kWh per 6km given that average emissions intensity is around 0.6 kg of CO2 per kWh and marginal emissions aren't hugely different to the average (sometimes lower, sometimes higher but as a whole they're similar).

Basically no ICE can actually achieve that meanwhile the bar keeps getting lower as the emissions intensity of electricity generation falls.

*Grid = either the National Electricity Market (NEM) which covers Tasmania, Victoria, ACT and the vast majority of the population in Queensland, NSW and SA or the South-West Interconnected System (SWIS) which covers most of the population in south-western WA including Perth. Both have almost identical overall emissions intensity and similar marginal emissions. For what it' worth the North-West Interconnected System (WA), the Darwin-Katherine system and the Mt Isa system aren't hugely different either.

Any argument against EV's relies on them using huge amounts of energy to manufacture.


----------



## qldfrog (28 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> You'd need an ICE with petrol / diesel consumption under 2.5 litres / 100km to match an EV charged from the grid using 1 kWh per 6km given that average emissions intensity is around 0.6 kg of CO2 per kWh and marginal emissions aren't hugely different to the average (sometimes lower, sometimes higher but as a whole they're similar).
> 
> Basically no ICE can actually achieve that meanwhile the bar keeps getting lower as the emissions intensity of electricity generation falls.
> 
> ...



relatively older diesel small car are not that far and EV is indeed 1kw per 5 to 6km. 5km in real conditions it seems;
I remember my dad's small car below 3.5l per 100km years ago

_The fuel consumption of this version of Renault Twingo 1.5 dCi in combined mode (combining urban and highway driving) is *3.4 litres per 100km* - this is the most economical Renault Twingo 2012 - 2014 version, fuel consumption in city - 4.1 l/100km, fuel consumption on highway - 3.1 l/100km. for a car which was within the 10kAUD new_

Then how much energy lost to get that kw delivered and stored  vs energy to get that diesel at the pump?
To consume this 15KW per 100km, how many KW did you actually feed to charge the battery after the charge/discharge losses..
I did here a basic computation now months ago on the Tesla figures and it was not that negligible, add transmission losses and it is not a nice figure;
all good when you charge with your panels at home, but a different story otherwise;
Obviously we need to compare apples with apples and not a Leaf and a Landcruiser.

In Australia at the time I did the computation, charging a tesla  in Qld was creating more co2 on average than using a diesel efficient European car.
Obviously, as we will not get these ICE on the market anymore, this is quite irrelevant, the actual CO2 release ? obviously no one really care in the same way the plastic usage seems to have vanished since we spent billions with useless face masks, test kits and gloves.


----------



## sptrawler (29 December 2021)

I found this article interesting, some real life figures for the Hyundai ioniq5, with AC off and AC on.





__





						You Asked, We Answered: Here's What You Wanted To Know About The Hyundai Ioniq 5 | Carscoops
					





					www.carscoops.com


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> In Australia at the time I did the computation, charging a tesla in Qld was creating more co2 on average than using a diesel efficient European car.



The precise answer's an "it depends" thing since the marginal source of electricity and thus the emissions of charging an EV varies depending on when it's charged.

That said, as a generic answer the NEM emits 0.6 kg of CO2 per kWh and the SWIS is almost exactly the same on average.

Where it gets complex is when I point out that there are no large scale coal-fired power stations in either SA or Tasmania but yes coal will be the marginal source of generation in those states at times.

To throw an even bigger spanner in the works on that one, Victoria mines and burns brown coal but in practice black coal, which is not mined or used in Victoria for power generation, is in fact the marginal source of generation for that state more often than brown coal is. 

All comes down to the capacity constraints of everything, transmission flows and so on but bottom line is charging your EV in Melbourne may well alter power generation somewhere north of Sydney, or in SA or Tasmania, or on occasion it might alter the output of a facility in Melbourne itself. It depends....

That said a "do the right thing" approach would be to not charge during the late afternoon - early evening period. If there's going to be inefficient "old clunker" plant running then that's when it'll most commonly be. 

For petrol and diesel it also depends. Eg how much fuel was used to transport the fuel to the service station for a start isn't constant. Etc.

What can be said though is that the emissions intensity of electricity generation is slowly reducing but for petrol and diesel that isn't the case indeed if anything it's going up as the need to use lesser quality and harder to access sources of oil becomes greater.


----------



## qldfrog (29 December 2021)

Smurf1976 said:


> The precise answer's an "it depends" thing since the marginal source of electricity and thus the emissions of charging an EV varies depending on when it's charged.
> 
> That said, as a generic answer the NEM emits 0.6 kg of CO2 per kWh and the SWIS is almost exactly the same on average.
> 
> ...



What can be said and agreed for sure:
The concept and future for EV is bright, we need to sever ourselves from fossil fuel irrespective of greenwashing argument, and they remove pollution from cities.
Sadly, i think the target market for the first one is wrong:
You should ideally have EV in independent homes, not units , using PV and charging at midday.
Retiree mostly? Now reset is adding the WFH crowds so that's good
Not exactly the type of green ego boosting user who are current users.
It also means that having EVs in fleet (aka company cars) is BAD.
Because these users will put convenience first as they will not pay the costs and will not..well should not, be parked during the 7am to 6pm window.
If they are,they should not have company cars..but we will be talking PS and local gov. So.....
My point is like the plastic bag ban, there is a good deed presented as pretext, an overall positive target, 
But an in the fact worst immediate outcome 
yet in a world where narrative is above facts,who cares????
Just spare me the green washing.
We will get EVs, planete resources will be wasted and perfectly good ice vehicle crushed unnecessarily but a lot of money and taxes done along the way with more control and pain for the commoners.
Yet these lithium batteries EV will be around in the next decades,no denying


----------



## rederob (29 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Sadly, i think the target market for the first one is wrong:
> You should ideally have EV in independent homes, not units , using PV and charging at midday.



It makes no difference who owns the EV. However, charging days and times can significantly alter their CO2 footprint, as @Smurf1976 has pointed out.


qldfrog said:


> It also means that having EVs in fleet (aka company cars) is BAD.
> Because these users will put convenience first as they will not pay the costs and will not..well should not, be parked during the 7am to 6pm window.



As taxing regimes may well be based on distance travelled in future it is probable that company/fleet vehicles will actually make the larger contribution to government coffers.


qldfrog said:


> But an in the fact worst immediate outcome
> yet in a world where narrative is above facts,who cares????



Can someone translate this into a sense please.  
What is "the narrative"?
The facts are obvious, as presented in this thread.
Displaced ICEVs will be shipped off to nations which are less able to afford either new ICEVs or NEVs as has always been the case.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 December 2021)

Value Collector said:


> I agree, he is super hard to watch, and the times I have pushed through his BS intros to try and find out what he is actually saying I found all his arguments either have rather simple rebuttals or are just nonsense straw man arguments that we have talked about on this thread a million times.
> 
> Of course he appeals to the kind of folks that like the status quo, and fear change though.
> 
> ...



Rule no 1.
Follow the money.
Rule no 2.
Follow rule no 1.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (29 December 2021)

H2 fuel cell trucks in Europe.









						The First Hydrogen Trucks Are Rolling In Europe
					

The first fuel cell trucks made their first kilometers in Switzerland and the Netherlands. Only Hyundai and Hyzon now produce hydrogen trucks in...




					fuelcellsworks.com


----------



## rederob (29 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> H2 fuel cell trucks in Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do we need a thread for electric trucks now?
Nikola in USA are well behind where they hoped to be with FCETs - (T = trucks) - but the business model they are working looks like being successful as they are using a "hub" where the "spokes" are predetermined destinations.  
Looks like the USA is behind Europe in FCETs and behind China in NEVs.  

On the topic of cars and the pivot to NEVs, Hyundai's intention is clear and ICEVs are dead in their factories.  I was going to post more on the various companies that are discontinuing ICE models in favour of NEVs but the list is literally as long as the number of companies making cars, full stop.


----------



## Humid (29 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> I found this article interesting, some real life figures for the Hyundai ioniq5, with AC off and AC on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice looking car compared to them dog ugly Teslas


----------



## sptrawler (29 December 2021)

rederob said:


> Do we need a thread for electric trucks now?
> Nikola in USA are well behind where they hoped to be with FCETs - (T = trucks) - but the business model they are working looks like being successful as they are using a "hub" where the "spokes" are predetermined destinations.
> Looks like the USA is behind Europe in FCETs and behind China in NEVs.
> 
> On the topic of cars and the pivot to NEVs, Hyundai's intention is clear and ICEVs are dead in their factories.  I was going to post more on the various companies that are discontinuing ICE models in favour of NEVs but the list is literally as long as the number of companies making cars, full stop.



Due to regulation and the push to clean energy, it is inevitable that ICE engined vehicles will become a cottage industry and no multinational company will want to be caught in that niche.
The advantages of EV's over ICE production for the manufacturer's is just too compelling to ignore, so as is happening already manufacturer's are pushing up the price of their ICE powered vehicles, to take the price difference out of the equation.
Whether we need another thread on trucks IMO is debatable, because the issue is more about the EV process rather than the size of vehicle at the moment.
The motive force is the same, just where the electricity is sourced from differs, batteries or fuel cells.


----------



## rederob (29 December 2021)

sptrawler said:


> Due to regulation and the push to clean energy, it is inevitable that ICE engined vehicles will become a cottage industry and no multinational company will want to be caught in that niche.
> The advantages of EV's over ICE production for the manufacturer's is just too compelling to ignore, so as is happening already manufacturer's are pushing up the price of their ICE powered vehicles, to take the price difference out of the equation.
> Whether we need another thread on trucks IMO is debatable, because the issue is more about the EV process rather than the size of vehicle at the moment.
> The motive force is the same, just where the electricity is sourced from differs, batteries or fuel cells.



Hard to believe the pivotal year arrived as early as it did.
Sadly, Australia is a non starter in the transition.  We're not building anything except charging points, and have no policies beyond some State government tax concessions to get us into this clean energy future.
Maybe Twiggy can get us into hydrogen early enough to make FCEVs dominant in Oz by 2030.  Really makes sense here where massive transport distances are involved for trucking, and that infrastructure build would enable FCEV to be rolled out without the range anxieties that pervade BEV detractors.

Last count on US battery factory commitments was 15 so Ford and GM in particular have finally got serious.
Then in Shanghai we have CATL building a 70GWh battery factory nearby Tesla's manufacturing plant.  So maybe that's going to feed in to their planned US$25K Tesla?


----------



## sptrawler (29 December 2021)

This should bring about some changes in the EV space, maybe a lot more consolidation and rationalisation, my guess a higher probability of a Chinese EV company buying out a western company than vice versa.
Could well be a clever move by China to reduce chances of tarrifs and encourage more centralised production in China as opposed to the EU and U.S.
Which on cost fronts makes a lot of sense, when battery costs are a major factor, but then I guess we end up with the same problem as usual only one source of an essential product.








						China lifts foreign ownership restrictions for car manufacturers
					

Chinese limits on foreign investment in its auto companies will be removed in 2022.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 December 2021)

qldfrog said:


> Because these users will put convenience first as they will not pay the costs and will not..well should not, be parked during the 7am to 6pm window.
> If they are,they should not have company cars..



I liked your post even though I disagree with some points.

A business can well need vehicles that are used intermittently throughout the day.

Pool vehicles in an office situation are a classic example of that. Someone goes to meet with a client and takes the car but it's not in use all day every day. It'll be parked a portion of the time during business hours and an "always plugged in when at the office" policy fixes any charging issues, noting that from experience the biggest single problem with such vehicles at present is staff not putting petrol in them.

Any worker who is partly field based and part office based but is out and about often enough to have a car for their use specifically will be much the same. The car's parked a portion of the day, and it's parked overnight. 

Management vehicles for their business and private use are another one. They'll be parked much of the time in practice since they're effectively a personal possession despite technically being company property. 

I've worked with all three of those situations personally and they exist in both the public service and private enterprise.


----------



## JohnDe (29 December 2021)

Wheels magazine has quite a bit to say about EVs this month. I’ll be reading it this week, while we’re away on holidays. 
Just unloaded the Tesla after a pleasant 5 hour drive


----------



## sptrawler (30 December 2021)

Trains getting in on the fuel cell act.








						Green trains coming to power one of the world's mining centres
					

A global mining organisation and an Australian freight operator have teamed up to make one of the most resource-rich regions in the world a little greener.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Value Collector (30 December 2021)

wayneL said:


> Some great points in a country by country analysis. But I think the pertinent point as far as the video is concerned, is in relation to Australia.
> 
> if we are genuine about reducing overall emissions then we must look at the situation here, and not in Iceland or wherever. Therefore,EVs may increase emissions in our country even if they would reduce emissions in another country.
> 
> ...



Another good day for renewable generation in Australia,   Huge amounts of solar being generated, and some wind and hydro.

Queensland is burning the most coal, but even it is about 50% renewables.


----------



## divs4ever (31 December 2021)

Tesla recalls half a million US cars​








						Tesla recalls half a million US cars
					

AUSTIN, RAW – Tesla Inc is recalling more than 475,000 of its Model 3 and Model S electric cars to address rearview camera and trunk issues that increase the risk of crashing, the US road safety regulator said. The US electric vehicle manufacturer is recalling 356,309 2017-2020 Model 3 vehicles...




					thebull.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (1 January 2022)

Interesting concept in France, electric scooter that uses a fuel cell, supplied by a swappable H2 canister.









						Hydrogen Scooters With Swappable Cans Power Forward in France
					

Hydrogen Scooters With hot-Swappable Can technology Power Forward in France with the new Mob-ion scooter concept.




					cleantechnica.com


----------



## qldfrog (1 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting concept in France, electric scooter that uses a fuel cell, supplied by a swappable H2 canister.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And no need for lithium


----------



## mullokintyre (1 January 2022)

China has announced that it is phasing out subidies for New EV's.
From Zero Hedge 


> There's no doubt that new energy vehicle growth in China has been off the charts. Despite lackluster auto sales numbers heading into the backend of 2020, NEV sales continued to grow, rising 121% in November.
> 
> Additionally, the playing field of EV companies in China has become massive. The country leads the world in sheer number of major EV players, all jostling for position in what is still a burgeoning industry.
> 
> ...



Mick


----------



## JohnDe (1 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> China has announced that it is phasing out subidies for New EV's.
> From Zero Hedge
> 
> Mick




Good news for Tesla.



> As China cuts support for its electric carmakers, auto firms could face a ‘war of attrition’




Less competition form government funded EV manufacturers' is what Elon Musk has been calling for.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/19/chi...ic-carmakers-could-lead-to-consolidation.html


----------



## rederob (1 January 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Good news for Tesla.
> Less competition form government funded EV manufacturers' is what Elon Musk has been calling for.
> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/19/chi...ic-carmakers-could-lead-to-consolidation.html



Chinese NEV car subsidies in 2022 are not that significant from our Western perspective (less than typical GST) but clearly make a big differences where wages are much less:



As the above link indicates, the subsidy is conditional on price and technical factors, so lower end manufacturers (such as on Alibaba) seldom qualified from what I have worked out.  On the other hand, some better selling lower end vehicles upped their specs in 2021/22 to qualify for subsidies.
There's also a really interesting twist that puts NIO in perspective:  Vehicles with battery-swapping functions are exempted from the limit on vehicle price,  to promote the technology and battery swapping as a business model.

The other point to bear in mind is that subsidies will be limited to 2 million NEVs in 2022 and this cap is likely to be reached in the 3rd quarter.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (1 January 2022)

One of the most interesting articles in The Spectator ( The UK version ) this year was by Jonathan Miller in April detailing his woes with the Hyundai Kona and Hyundai's lack of response to his concerns. He lives in France by the way and found it difficult to find charging stations as many closed down due to inefficiency and his house was blacked out on two occasions when his wife boiled the kettle while he was charging the vehicle. 

I have been to France and it is not the biggest country through which to drive. 

He spent a fortune on buying the car in the belief that he was helping the planet. Which I believe to be a good thing. I cannot think of any other planet I'd like to save more than Mother Earth. 

I find it difficult to imagine how people in Australia outside of three or four major metropolitan centres will be able to manage owning an electric car, given the distances that people in the regions travel. 

As to cost, only a very few such as pharmacists, doctors, colourful characters of low and high repute, night-club owners, restaurant owners, illicit drug importers, leaders of churches who collect, politicians and board members of failing large companies will be able to afford an EV, let alone run one, even in the major metropolitan centres. 

I am not against EV, however feel that the man with the red flag who walked in front of the original internal combustion engine cars is waving a flag. A very red flag on EV. The infrastructure needs to keep up with the vehicle. 

gg


----------



## JohnDe (1 January 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I find it difficult to imagine how people in Australia outside of three or four major metropolitan centres will be able to manage owning an electric car, given the distances that people in the regions travel.
> 
> As to cost, only a very few such as pharmacists, doctors, colourful characters of low and high repute, night-club owners, restaurant owners, illicit drug importers, leaders of churches who collect, politicians and board members of failing large companies will be able to afford an EV, let alone run one, even in the major metropolitan centres.
> 
> ...




I almost fell off my chair laughing. You are tacking the mickey, right?

I’m not a doctor nor a pharmacist and definitely not a ‘colourful character’, but I do own an EV sin July 2021.

My partner and I are currently on holidays and traveling through regional Australia. We’ve been in a coastal town with a population of about 4000, and staying in a small but comfy cabin. To charge our EV we use an extension cord and a 10A  socket from the cabin, we’ve even left the A/C on in the cabin and used the kettle at the same time, we even threw caution to the wind & turned the television on and the bedroom fan 😮

Seriously, and please don’t take any offence from this, but if we made investment decisions by reading an article and jumping to a few conclusions, we’d be broke.

Electrical infrastructure is always being upgraded, 40 years ago only a wealthy family could afford ducted A/C, and the A/C pricing dropped and wages went up. Soon there was A/C being fitted to most houses and the electricity grid had to be upgraded to keep up.

Most EVs have software that can adjust the charging rate. My EV can detect and adjust the safe current draw. I have charged from many locations in county towns, Staying in some very old accommodation, and not once has our EV caused a blackout.


----------



## wayneL (1 January 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I almost fell off my chair laughing. You are tacking the mickey, right?
> 
> I’m not a doctor nor a pharmacist and definitely not a ‘colourful character’, but I do own an EV sin July 2021.
> 
> ...



FFS don't live in the Perth hills, the power will never be on long enough


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 January 2022)

JohnDe said:


> the electricity grid had to be upgraded to keep up



The thing about EV's is that by their very nature they're an energy storage device. Unlike say lighting which needs to draw electricity in real time.

That storage aspect opens up the very real possibility to intentionally charge when there's spare capacity available, thus avoiding or at least minimising the need for costly upgrades to infrastructure.

As a concept it's much the same as saying that if a great big heavy load has to be transported, and it simply has to go down a major arterial road at a practical speed of 10 km/h, well then doing it between midnight and 6am when few if any others are using the road sure beats trying to do it at 8am on a weekday. Same concept. By intentionally applying a major load such as EV charging at a time when overall consumption is low, it avoids the need for upgrades.

The key is actually doing it and that's where some risk does exist since, without being pushed or given an incentive, nothing's really enticing consumers to do so. It's possible but it needs to actually happen.


----------



## Value Collector (2 January 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> One of the most interesting articles in The Spectator ( The UK version ) this year was by Jonathan Miller in April detailing his woes with the Hyundai Kona and Hyundai's lack of response to his concerns. He lives in France by the way and found it difficult to find charging stations as many closed down due to inefficiency and his house was blacked out on two occasions when his wife boiled the kettle while he was charging the vehicle.
> 
> I have been to France and it is not the biggest country through which to drive.
> 
> ...



I have owned my car for over two years now, and I simply charge at home from a standard power point, on road trips I have never found there to be a shortage of chargers, and their numbers are growing all the time anyway.

In regards to the Kona owner that over loaded his household circuit, this can be fix in tways.

1, have an electrician install a dedicated line from your switch board to a power point or charger in your garage.

2, set the car to charge at a slower rate, ( I don’t know if the Kona has this function, but you can select how many amps you want your Tesla to draw, if you are worried about over loading an exisiting circuit.

3, charge at night while no one is using the kettle hahaha.

when it comes to regional Australia, home charging would get you a 500km round trip, which would be ok for the vast majority, and if you need to drive more than 500kms it’s hard to believe you wouldn’t be passing a charger along the way, which you can stop at for a few minutes to boost the battery up enough to get you home (you don’t have to fill up to 100%, because you will do that when you get home)


----------



## rederob (3 January 2022)

If you don't believe in unicorns, then these 3 - Li Auto, Xpeng, and NIO - might give people contemplating EVs something to think about:


The big mover is clearly Xpeng.
EV watchers expect their production numbers to double again this year, although NIO relies on 3rd party manufacture via JAC and is upgrading its production capacity.
I don't think any of the above models are coming to Australia in 2022.


----------



## sptrawler (3 January 2022)

rederob said:


> If you don't believe in unicorns, then these 3 - Li Auto, Xpeng, and NIO - might give people contemplating EVs something to think about:
> 
> I don't think any of the above models are coming to Australia in 2022.



Don't be too sure.

While NIO *vehicles are not yet available* in the US and Australia, their newest electric cars were spotted in Mildura, Victoria. They appeared to have been camouflaged NIO ES8 SUVs driving in the scorching heat.


----------



## qldfrog (3 January 2022)

This is more like it .i trust this morehttps://lavo.com.au/
 than lithium battery to ultimately ensure a replacement of the ice fleet.
But is the aim annihilation of the ice fleet or more social engineering and removal of travel from the masses


----------



## rederob (4 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Don't be too sure.
> 
> While NIO *vehicles are not yet available* in the US and Australia, their newest electric cars were spotted in Mildura, Victoria. They appeared to have been camouflaged NIO ES8 SUVs driving in the scorching heat.



That was NIO's ES6...


I heard that NIO's right hand drive versions were not going to be produced this year, which is a shame as the ES8's specs/technology are outstanding although it's not exactly pretty (like the ET7).  This article suggest an Australian launch this year but all it really concludes is they will be here before 2025.  
Of the affordable EVs I saw reviewed in 2021, the Ora Good Cat was my favourite.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 January 2022)

One of the policies put up by the ALP prior to the election was to remove the 5 % import tariff on electric vehicles.
One might ask why they would also not remove GST and luxury car taxes as well as some have suggested on the forum.
A cynic might suggest its because the  latter will cost some real money, as distinct from the tariff plan.
With the recent signings of various trade agreements, about 70% of the currently imported vehicles  would have had the tariff waived.
From  Todays Australian
A key plank of Labor’s plan to accelerate electric vehicle sales is redundant, according to Energy Minister Angus Taylor, with more than 70 per cent of car imports being exempt from tariffs under free trade deals. 
Mr Taylor said Labor’s plan to waive a 5 per cent import tariff on electric cars would have “close to zero impact on prices or uptake” given the vast majority of cars are already spared from the impost. “Australia’s extensive free trade agreements, entered into by the Coalition, mean that over 70 per cent of our car (electric and petrol) imports are already exempt from import tariffs,” Mr Taylor said.

Moreover, now that a free trade deal has been struck with Britain, Labor’s policy will have no impact on the cost of the five top selling electric cars in Australia.
The German-made Porsche Taycan is the only top selling electric car that is not be covered by a free-trade deal. But the Porsche’s price of $156,000 to $345,000 precludes it from being captured under Labor’s policy as it is classified as a luxury car.



> When announcing its policy last year, Labor said the $50,000 Nissan Leaf would be $2000 cheaper without attracting a tariff. This is no longer the case given the tariff was waved under the free-trade deal with Britain which was signed in December


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> One of the policies put up by the ALP prior to the election was to remove the 5 % import tariff on electric vehicles.
> One might ask why they would also not remove GST and luxury car taxes as well as some have suggested on the forum.
> A cynic might suggest its because the  latter will cost some real money, as distinct from the tariff plan.
> With the recent signings of various trade agreements, about 70% of the currently imported vehicles  would have had the tariff waived.
> ...



No mention of removing FBT though?


----------



## mullokintyre (5 January 2022)

Of course not, it was always a pretend statement. The last thing they want to do is stop any money flowing in.


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Of course not, it was always a pretend statement. The last thing they want to do is stop any money flowing in.



More than  likely because of a Murdoch rag because I'm sure it was part of the original statement.


----------



## Humid (5 January 2022)

Electric Car Discount
					

Cheaper electric cars so that more families who want them can afford them, and to reduce emissions.




					www.alp.org.au


----------



## mullokintyre (5 January 2022)

The staement you quoted said the policy will apply to all vehicles below the luxury car tax.
so the removal of FBT will only apply to vehicles below that figure.
I guess its a a bit each way.

mick


----------



## mullokintyre (15 January 2022)

According to Reuters Tesla has delayed production of Tesla's Cyber truck (again) until early 2023.


> SAN FRANCISCO, Jan 13 (Reuters) - Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) aims to start initial production of its much-anticipated Cybertruck by the end of the first quarter of 2023, pushing back its plan to begin production late this year, a person familiar with the matter told Reuters on Thursday.
> 
> The person said the delay comes as Tesla is changing features and functions of the electric pickup to make a compelling product as competition heats up in the segment.
> 
> ...



Both the  Ford Ligtning and Rivian have already had first deliveries to  the  general Public.
By my count, this is the fourth push back for the Cybertruck.
Despite the first cab off the rank in announcements, back in 2019, the others  have now  have gone past Tesla.
At this rate , even GM may beat them out of the gate with its electric  Hummer pickup due for delivery September 2022 and Hummer  SUV due in early 2023.
Another postponement by Tesla would even put them behind the GMC Sierra Denali EV.
Mick


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## sptrawler (15 January 2022)

Even the French can change their mind and cancel contracts, who would have thought, but when something doesn't make sense plans have to change.








						Montpellier foregoes hydrogen project for battery-electric buses, for now - electrive.com
					

A project in Montpellier to procure over 50 hydrogen buses has been scrapped, with the French city now opting for battery-electric buses. French media look at the reasons behind the decision that involves a change of management but more so, the question of operating cost. A portal from La Tribune




					www.electrive.com


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## SirRumpole (18 January 2022)

The vibe is spreading...









						'Build it and they will come': First fast charger for EVs represents new field of dreams on Nullarbor
					

The charger, powered by vegetable oil, plugs a 720-kilometre gap between proposed fast chargers in WA and SA, described as "one of the final frontiers" for Australia's growing number of battery-powered vehicles.




					www.abc.net.au


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## Humid (18 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The vibe is spreading...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Be no shortage of cooking oil out there.....you can get diabetes crossing the nullabor


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## JohnDe (18 January 2022)

Today's news -

"_*Trucking industry: Make trucks electric to lift suburban curfews and ease congestion*

Switching to electric delivery trucks rather than diesel-powered ones could mean cutting noise, congestion and pollution on suburban and city streets as freight curfews are lifted, with the trucking industry backing an energy switch that it says will save companies money.

Internal combustion engines are louder, pollute more and have higher running costs, while quiet electric engines could power trucks for nighttime deliveries around urban areas, avoiding the curfews many councils currently place on diesel trucks, reducing traffic congestion.

The Australian Trucking Association (ATA) has produced a report with the Electric Vehicle Council advocating a switch to electric vehicles to reduce health impacts and save the industry money.

“It costs about $117 to fuel a diesel truck for 300 kilometres, but just $18 for an electric truck,” ATA chairman David Smith said...._.."









						Make trucks electric to lift suburban curfews and ease congestion: Trucking industry
					

The trucking industry is pushing for a plan to make delivery vehicles electric, which it says will allow suburban noise curfews to be lifted and companies to save money.




					www.smh.com.au


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## mullokintyre (18 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The vibe is spreading...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have a few problems with this article.
Firstly, it calls the unit a carbon neutral charger.
These sort of statements puzzle me because the generator burns the oil from the deep fryer.
In burning, it releases CO2 into the atmosphere, but somehow is carbon nuetral.
Secondly, the article states that it will take about 20 litres of used cooking oil to charge a car.
At that rate they are going to have to sell hell of a lot of chips to  generate sufficient capacity to charge more than 1 car per day.
It says the unit cost $75,000 and was crowd funded.
Why would they not put a series of solar panels with batteries to run the remote charger?
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall the last time I drove through there,  the Caiguna roadhouse already has a solar panel array to supply the roadhouse with electricity
Just does not make a lot of sense to me.
Mick


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## SirRumpole (18 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I have a few problems with this article.
> Firstly, it calls the unit a carbon neutral charger.
> These sort of statements puzzle me because the generator burns the oil from the deep fryer.
> In burning, it releases CO2 into the atmosphere, but somehow is carbon nuetral.
> ...



I guess it's a 'proof of concept ' arrangement at this point rather than a commercial product.


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## qldfrog (18 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I have a few problems with this article.
> Firstly, it calls the unit a carbon neutral charger.
> These sort of statements puzzle me because the generator burns the oil from the deep fryer.
> In burning, it releases CO2 into the atmosphere, but somehow is carbon nuetral.
> ...



Mike, please stop it.you are mixing technology, science, common sense and number, next you will be labelled an antivax
Obviously, to get that used oil there will be a long way for the delivery truck..or a bloody high consumption of fried goods by the local community..with the obvious health effects ...
Not to say it is not a good idea to recycle cooking oil...but even the most obvious common sense needs to be wiped from some of these green economy,CC or covid articles..
Yes solar panels would obviously be the way to go and a diesel generator running on cooking oil if you want as backup


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## mullokintyre (18 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I guess it's a 'proof of concept ' arrangement at this point rather than a commercial product.



Thirty years ago there was a guy  who went around the local ag shows and field days demonstrating a holden statesman  running on used  frying oil. Had to go through a fairly stiff filtering process or it clogged up the injectors,  so its not a new process,.
Attaching the output shaft to a generator is not new, and charging stations are everywhere.
Mick


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## JohnDe (18 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Thirty years ago there was a guy  who went around the local ag shows and field days demonstrating a holden statesman  running on used  frying oil. Had to go through a fairly stiff filtering process or it clogged up the injectors,  so its not a new process,.
> Attaching the output shaft to a generator is not new, and charging stations are everywhere.
> Mick




Did the Statesman have a diesel engine conversion?

A mate converted his Hilux, the exhaust did give off a strange odour but smelt better than the diesel fumes. Kept it for about a year and then sold it, neve saw it again.









						Successful Tips for Burning Straight Vegetable Oil in Diesel Engines
					






					costeffective.com.au


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## mullokintyre (18 January 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Did the Statesman have a diesel engine conversion?
> 
> A mate converted his Hilux, the exhaust did give off a strange odour but smelt better than the diesel fumes. Kept it for about a year and then sold it, neve saw it again.
> 
> ...



Yes, it was a diesel conversion.
It would be  virtually  impossible to run  fish and chip oil in a petrol engine.
Mick


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## qldfrog (18 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yes, it was a diesel conversion.
> It would be  virtually  impossible to run  fish and chip oil in a petrol engine.
> Mick



For info, my dad was mixing vegetable oil in Europe straight from the bottle into his diesel small car.not for green reason but just because bulk cooking oil was cheaper than diesel at the pump in europe.was mixing it as pure oil could cause problem in winter there.
I often cross path with an old landcruiser here which always stink fish and chips when leaving the car park and when one of the first citroen cars expedition went to Asia and got short of diesel in the 1930..they used coconut oil.once you disconnect the electronics, have rough design and not too modern engine and as long you do not have too much fish bones left in it...not even a conversion needed😁
Next stage is a tesla running on a lemon juice battery..or a potato one😉


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## JohnDe (18 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yes, it was a diesel conversion.
> It would be  virtually  impossible to run  fish and chip oil in a petrol engine.
> Mick




True, it is impossible to run an oil based fuel in a petrol engine. Seeing as no GMH Statesman came with a diesel engine the scenario you gave threw me off, so thought I'd confirm my suspicions.

Sounds like a very expensive exercise in killing an iconic Aussie car, oh well horses for courses.

Had an old mechanic hiring the rear of our yard, he was converting an old transit bus into a holiday bus and converting an old Torana to Hydrogen. Can't remember how he did it but it worked.


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## mullokintyre (18 January 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Sounds like a very expensive exercise in killing an iconic Aussie car, oh well horses for courses.



Iconic is in the eye of the beholder.
I have never considered  the statesman an iconic Aussie car, but hey I am sure there are people who do.
Mick


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## JohnDe (18 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Iconic is in the eye of the beholder.
> I have never considered  the statesman an iconic Aussie car, but hey I am sure there are people who do.
> Mick



Just like investing, need a good eye, decent judgement and some luck.












						1977 HOLDEN STATESMAN
					

HX Statesman  De Ville 308 V8, showing 7,698 klms (possibly 107,698),  Runs well, looks great. Very good example!!




					www.tradeuniquecars.com.au
				















						1981 HOLDEN STATESMAN DE VILLE
					

the first stand alone Australian designed and built sedan with it's own all Aussie 5.0L V8. Factory 308 with a mild cam, Edelbrock manifold, chrome performance power steer pump, chrome performance alternator, new air conditioning compressor and receiver dryer, custom extractors, 650 double...




					www.tradeuniquecars.com.au


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## Humid (18 January 2022)

98 ron was $1:98 in Perth yesterday!


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## JohnDe (19 January 2022)

Sony want to build cars.

When Tesla started engineering the Roadster the biggest issue was getting a battery manufacturer to supply batteries in large quantities, at any cost.

It was at the time when batteries where catching fire. An internal fault with approximately 1 in 8000 (from memory) batteries would cause the battery to overheat, Tesla had found a way to cool the batteries and ensure no self combustion was possible. However, the battery manufacturers where fearful of litigation in the event of battery power cars catching fire and causing death.

After many meetings with management, technicians and engineers over a few years with several manufacturers, Sony was the first to agree to supply batteries to Tesla.

_Sony Vision S2 SUV

Two years ago at CES 2020, Sony revealed its Vision S concept sedan, and over the past two years, has been testing it on the road. This time around at CES 2022, Sony demonstrated how serious they are about getting into the electric car business by not only unveiling the new Vision S2 SUV, but also announcing the second quarter 2022 launch of Sony Mobility Inc., the company that will “accelerate” Sony’s entry into the electric vehicle market._











						THE FUTURE OF MOTORING: The Sony car and five electric concept cars unveiled at Consumer Electronics Show 22
					

The range of electric vehicles revealed at CES 2022 gives a peek into the near future of electric cars as semi-autonomous multimedia entertainment lounges on wheels.




					www.dailymaverick.co.za


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## basilio (23 January 2022)

Norway has led the world with  the move to electric cars.  So  what are the results and  how have they been so successful ?









						How do we make the move to electric cars happen? Ask Norway | John Naughton
					

Two-thirds of all new cars bought by Norwegians last year were electric. Turns out you just need a government with a clue




					www.theguardian.com
				












						9 in 10 cars now being sold in Norway are electric or hybrid
					

Of all new passenger cars sold so far in 2021 in Norway, less than 5% are powered by gasoline. The numbers push the country closer to meeting its goal of a zero-emission fleet of new cars by 2025.




					www.npr.org


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## bk1 (23 January 2022)

I almost read it until i saw it was a link to the Guardian.
A couple of factoids...

1. Norway, a major oil and gas exporter, needs to sell over 100 barrels of oil (which emits 40 tonnes of CO2) to pay for the tax breaks it gives EVs to avoid one tonne of CO2.
2. Norway’s electricity is almost completely clean thanks to hydro power, so the CO2 avoidance costs will be higher in other countries.
3. Norway does not subsidise BEVs. Instead, BEVs can avoid almost all the taxes and fees levied on regular vehicles.
4. Norway needs high taxes across the economy to finance public spending amounting to more than half of GDP.
5. Electric cars are exempt from two big up-front taxes: 25% VAT and a large additional tax dependent on the weight and CO2 emissions of      the vehicle.

hope this helps...


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## Smurf1976 (23 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> In burning, it releases CO2 into the atmosphere, but somehow is carbon nuetral.



Since it's a waste product _something_ has to be done with it and burning sure beats pouring it down the drain etc.

Being vegetable or animal based, the carbon in it came from the atmosphere when the plants grew anyway so it's neutral as such apart from fossil fuels used to harvest the crops etc (but that was going to be done anyway no matter what happens to the waste oil).

To the extent there's a flaw in the plan it's simply that it doesn't scale beyond the amount of waste oil available.


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## JohnDe (23 January 2022)

bk1 said:


> I almost read it until i saw it was a link to the Guardian.
> A couple of factoids...
> 
> 1. Norway, a major oil and gas exporter, needs to sell over 100 barrels of oil (which emits 40 tonnes of CO2) to pay for the tax breaks it gives EVs to avoid one tonne of CO2.
> ...




Not sure where you are going with that. All I can think when I read your comment was 'so what?'

Norway is oil rich, they haven't abandoned ICEV because of a fuel problem, they have encouraged BEV because of an environmental concern. 

_"Since 2012, BEV policies have been anchored in climate policy (CPS, 2012). However, the first incentive became available as early as 1990. Norway has no ICEV production. Fuel prices are also among the highest in Europe, whereas electricity is cheap ..."_

Norway has positioned itself to be at the forefront of the transport revolution that is well and truly moving forward across the globe. Almost every vehicle manufacturer has declared the end date for internal combustion engines. Hyundai are closing their engine development plant this year.

All the major vehicle manufacturers knew change was coming years ago, GM, Mercedes, Toyota had engineering teams designing and producing small scale BEVs in the early 2000's, and then canceled several years later. Now they are all racing to put in the infrastructure, source reassures and sign up suppliers in time to complete a changeover of ICEV to BEV by 2030 or 2035 depends on the manufacturer and the country they are located in.

Countries like Australia, with an abundance of sun, wind, waves, uranium need to import fuel and oil from politically unstable countries to feed our vehicle fleet. We can easily produce enough cheap electricity to supply all our needs, we started slow and with poor planning but we are learning and moving forward.

Like it or not EVs are coming and new ICEV production is slowing.









						Perspectives on Norway’s supercharged electric vehicle policy
					

Norway has achieved an unprecedented breakthrough for battery electric vehicles. The market share reached 17.1% in 2015, and the total fleet passed 2.…




					www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## basilio (23 January 2022)

bk1 said:


> I almost read it until i saw it was a link to the Guardian.
> A couple of factoids...
> 
> 1. Norway, a major oil and gas exporter, needs to sell over 100 barrels of oil (which emits 40 tonnes of CO2) to pay for the tax breaks it gives EVs to avoid one tonne of CO2.
> ...



Nah.  The question being addressed was "How effectively has Norway encouraged the move to clean, renewable energy based, cheaper electric cars ?" And indeed regardless of where the information was sourced, the facts remain the same. Strong public policy strategies and clear incentives to go electric.  

I'd be interested to know where you have obtained your factoids Bk1.  Care to quote the source please ?


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 January 2022)

bk1 said:


> Norway does not subsidise BEVs. Instead, BEVs can avoid almost all the taxes and fees levied on regular vehicles.



In Australia politics would most likely argue that as being a subsidy.

Right or wrong I'm not judging, just observing.


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## sptrawler (23 January 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> In Australia politics would most likely argue that as being a subsidy.
> 
> Right or wrong I'm not judging, just observing.



When you consider GST in Norway is 25%. 
If 90% of their automobiles are E.V's that shortfall in revenue that they used to get on the sale of ICE cars, has to be made up somewhere, so there is some cross subsidy going on to fill the gap. 
We obviously need to increase our GST, so we can take it off some things and make them a lot cheaper. 🤪


----------



## qldfrog (23 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> When you consider GST in Norway is 25%.
> If 90% of their automobiles are E.V's that shortfall in revenue that they used to get on the sale of ICE cars, has to be made up somewhere, so there is some cross subsidy going on to fill the gap.
> We obviously need to increase our GST, so we can take it off some things and make them a lot cheaper. 🤪



Stop giving them ideas


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## JohnDe (24 January 2022)

An investor would be crazy not to have some sort of share ownership in a company involved with either EVs or minerals required for batteries. DYOR -

*The EV Space in 2022: To infinity and beyond*
_
With many electric vehicles coming into the market soon from legacy and new auto makers, analysts at Bank of America Securities expect this year to be a “tipping point” for EVs, although higher prices will remain a deterrent to the bulk of consumers.

The year 2022 “marks the beginning of commercialisation of electric vehicles as many start-up EV vehicle makers plan up new product launches and many existing automakers are also starting their product launches,” analysts said in a note on Wednesday.

The BoA analysts said they expect about 1 million EVs to be sold in the US this year, which will increase to around 1.8 million in 2023 and 3 million in 2024, which means EV penetration this year is around 6%, up from 11% in 2023 and 16% in 2024.

Impressive as that is, it does mean the US will remain China in terms of EV sales for the next three years at least and probably more seeing Chinese sales (they are called new energy vehicles, or NEVs) were 3.3 million in 2021. The NEV market share in China rose to 21.3% of total sales in December, and 15.7% in 2021 as a whole – up from 5.8% in 2020.

The analysts named Tesla, Ford and GM TSLA as the main gainers.

Ford and GM are down to start expanding production and sales of EVs in 2022 and 2023 and the report suggests that Tesla faces the biggest threat from expanded EV output and sales from incumbent car makers

*…………*

Tesla has ambitions for another significant boost to output this year after 2021’s record surge to nearly a million deliveries; Ford and GM likewise for later this year and 2023, while Chinese companies led by BYD have revealed ambitious output and sales plans for 2022 and 2023.

And *investors *should realise that these upbeat plans are good news for the *major renewable commodities, led by lithium, copper, nickel and rare earths.*

While other car makers struggled to limit falls in production in 2021 because of the shortage of valuable computer chips and other components, *Tesla lifted its deliveries by a huge 87%*.

No other western carmaker can get claim to have gotten anywhere near that figure and although it hasn’t given any hint about 2022, some *analysts are forecasting rises of 30% to 50% in production and deliveries this year.*

Tesla has had problems and executives, from CEO Elon Musk down, complained several times about shortages of components and warned that production and deliveries could be hit in the closing months of 2021, But that clearly wasn’t a major problem in the end

Tesla says it boosted year sales to 936,172 for 2021, up sharply from 2020’s then record 499,647 as it reported a record quarterly high of 308,600 deliveries for the three months to December, up nearly 30% from the previous quarter.

Tesla delivered a record 70,602 vehicles in China in easily topping the previous record of 52,153 set in the three months to September.

Total deliveries in China last year jumped 117% to 321,000 Model 3 and Model Y vehicles.

The total figure for the December quarter was the first-time deliveries had topped 300,000 in a quarter – the 241,300 delivered in the three months to September was Tesla’s previous best quarter.

It was the sixth consecutive quarter that Tesla has reported record deliveries.

According data firm, FactSet, Wall Street analysts had forecast Tesla deliveries of 267,000 in the fourth quarter and 897,000 for all of 2021.

Deliveries are the closest approximation of sales reported by the company.

This year the company is looking to new factories in Texas and Berlin – which will use new vehicle technologies and new teams – to boost output.

Tesla said in October that it was looking to build its first production cars at both facilities by the end of 2021, but it is not known whether it met that target.

Tesla did not respond to media questions about the state of both plants.

The Berlin factory had initially been scheduled to begin production last summer but was delayed by various problems, including Tesla’s dissatisfaction with Germany’s labour laws and other regulations.

Analysts at Deutsche Bank said in a report on New Year’s Eve that it expected Tesla to make nearly 1.5 million vehicle deliveries this year, although the chip shortage remained a key concern.

Tesla’s market value reached more than $US1.25 trillion in November in the wake of rental car company Hertz saying it had ordered 100,000 of its vehicles.

The company’s shares fell back under the $US1 trillion mark for a short while after Musk wrote on Twitter in November that he was considering selling 10% of his stake in Tesla and then proceeded to sell billions of dollars in shares and exercise millions of options in a major revamp of its shareholding position.

The shares steadied and rose in December to take the year’s rise to 49.7%, ending 2021 at $US1,062.60.

*…………*

And *BYD*, China’s leading NEV maker (New Energy Vehicles which include purely electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles) *has reported NEV sales surged 218.3% in 2021* from the depressed 2020 level to 603,783 units.

Total vehicle sales (which include ICE-powered vehicles) climbed to 740,131 units last year from 426,972 units, while output leapt to 747,540 units from 427,672 units.

BYD said it maintained momentum in December with continued strong market demand for its NEVs when it sold a total of 93,945 NEVs, up from 28,841 units in the same month a year ago.

Chinese media reports late last year forecast that BYD is targeting sales of electric vehicles and other “new energy vehicles” of up to 1.2 million in 2022, which would be a near doubling on 2021’s level and bring it closer to neck and neck status with Tesla.

If BYD is able to meet its targeted sales figures, the company would account for roughly a quarter of all NEV sales in China this year, with total forecast NEV sales expected to reach around 4.5 to 5 million units up from an expected 3.2 million in 2021.

*…………*

Ford has boosted its production targets for what is shaping as its key US EV – the F-150 Lightning and a key passenger vehicle – an electric version of its Mustang.

*Ford* now says that it had *doubled its production* for the *all-electric pickup truck to 150,000 vehicles a year by 2023* from the earlier figure of around 80,000 a year.

This was after the car giant revealed in mid-December that it had capped its initial order list at 200,000 because of fears it would not be able to ramp up fast enough.

The news comes as the automaker prepares to start making and shipping its new EV in the first half of 2022.

Production of both the F-150 Lightning and F-150 Lightning Pro for commercial customers has entered its final pre-build stage at the company’s Rouge Electric Vehicle Center in Dearborn, Michigan.

The number of electric F-150s Ford planned to sell in its first few years of production has been revised upwards since the first estimate of 40,000 a year was released in early 2021.

That was boosted to 80,000 mid-year by early 2023, now its 150,000 a year by mid-2023.

Ford is also looking to triple annual production of its popular Mustang Mach-E electric crossover vehicle to more than 200,000 by 2023 as it tries to match output to rising order numbers.

All over Ford reckons it will have the annual capacity to build 600,000 electric vehicles globally within two years, when it aims to become “the clear No. 2 electric vehicle maker in North America” behind Tesla, which last year sold more than 900,000 EVs. Ford sold 2.04 million vehicles in North America in 2021.

*…………*

Globally the *Volkswagen Group sold* a record number of around *762,400 plug-in electric vehicles (up 80.6% from 2020’s 422,000*, which was 8.6% (a new high) of the company’s total volume (9,305,000; down 4.5% for the year).

VW nearly doubled all-electric vehicle sales to a new record of 452,900 and 5.1% of the total volume (compared to 2.5% in 2020). Plug-in hybrid sales expanded by about 61% to nearly 310,000.

VW said that in Western Europe, 10.5% of its sales were all-electric vehicles (compared to 6.2% a year ago). In Germany, Volkswagen Group’s BEV share out of the total volume was higher at 11.4%.

In North America, Volkswagen Group tripled its BEV sales and has become the second-largest automotive group for BEVs with 37,200 units sold in the that country behind Tesla.

*…………*

Judging by the 2021 sales performance for electric vehicles in key markets, it’s no wonder lithium is in great demand with prices firm and expected to firm further this year.

Europe saw a gangbuster month in December with record sales, as did China – that’s the two leading markets for EVs at the moment.

As expected Chinese numbers for sales of so-called new energy vehicles (or NEVs) boomed in 2021 and look like repeating that performance this year, even though prospective purchasers face a cut in tax subsidies.

This year, the incentive to buy an electric car in China will be reduced by 30% compared to 2021. In 2023, the direct subsidies will be completely removed, at least if nothing serious happens in the economy in the meantime.

Some analysts think the sluggish health of the Chinese economy could very well see a further extension of the subsidy later this year.

The* China* Association of Automobile Makers (CAAM) *reported that 3.334 million new energy passenger vehicles were sold in the country in 2021, up 167.5%* from Covid-hit 2020.

Of these, battery electric vehicle sales were 2.734 million, up 173.5% year-on-year, and plug-in hybrid sales were 600,000, up 143.2% year-on-year.

China’s new energy commercial vehicle sales in 2021 totalled 186,000 units, up 54% year-on-year.

The big rise in NEV sales is why China saw a small rise in total vehicles produced and sold 26.082 million and 26.275 million vehicles, respectively, in 2021, up 3.4 percent and 3.8 percent year-on-year, ending a three-year decline, the MIIT said.

Last month, CAAM said it expects NEV sales growth to slow sharply in 2022 from 20121 to ‘just’ 47% to 5 million.

The sharp rise in NEV sales will see total automobile sales rise a modest 5.4% to 27.5 million this year, meaning two successive years of growth in the total market, something that hasn’t happened since 2016 and 2017.

But with Covid infections – both delta and omicron variants – still a major concern in China, any tightening of movement or restrictions on public activity, such as retailing (car outlets) could crunch vehicles sales.

China’s auto sales in December fell 1.6% from the same month in 2020, the eight consecutive monthly drop, CAAM data showed.

In December alone, 531,000 NEVs were sold, representing a surge of 114% year-on-year. China has in recent years heavily promoted NEVs as part of its efforts to curb air pollution.

Most foreign automakers are behind their Chinese counterparts in designing smart cars that appeal. Tesla is the only foreign brand among the top 10.

Tesla delivered a record 70,602 vehicles in China in the December quarter easily topping the previous record of 52,153 set in the three months to September.

Total deliveries in China last year jumped 117% to 321,000 Model 3 and Model Y vehicles.

Volkswagen said it missed its goal of selling 80,000 to 100,000 units from its ID battery electric series last year, having sold 70,625 vehicles, but that it would likely double sales this year.

*…………*

The situation in Europe was more of the same – boom.

Last August saw for the first time ever, electric vehicle (EV) sales were ahead of diesel sales in Europe.

Electric and plug-in hybrid new car registrations equaled 21% or 151,737 vehicles in August, while in contrast, diesel engine vehicles slipped to 20% of total new car registrations.

That was an amazing turnaround considering that a year earlier, in August 2020 there were 158,300 more diesel registrations than EVs.

The Financial Times reported this week that more than a 20% of new cars sold across 18 European markets, including the UK, were powered exclusively by batteries, while diesel cars, including diesel hybrids, accounted for less than 19% of sales.

Because of generous government subsidies in Germany and elsewhere, as well as strict regulations introduced in 2020 that force EU manufacturers to sell more low-emissions vehicles, *EV sales have been rising steadily*.

The trend accelerated in the final quarter of 2021 as *Tesla proved to be better able than rivals to adapt to shortages of computer chips* to delivering a record 309,000 electric cars (a third of Tesla’s total global sales).

The FT also pointed out that European carmakers also pushed sales of electric vehicles in December to reduce their fleet-wide carbon footprint and avoid fines from Brussels, after prioritising the production of the most profitable models — mainly heavily polluting sports utility vehicles (SUVs) — during the supply chain crisis in most of 2020 and 2021.

As a result, 176,000 battery electric vehicles were sold in western Europe on December — an all-time record — and more than 6% higher than the number sold in December 2020. By comparison, nearly 160,000 diesels were sold in the last month of 2021.

*…………*

Meanwhile electric vehicles *(EVs) accounted for nearly two-thirds of all new car sales in Norway in 2021, putting the country well on the way to end all internal combustion engine (ICE)* powered car sales by the 2025 deadline.

According to Norway’s Road Federation, an industry body, Norwegian dealerships sold a total of 176,276 cars in 2021, of which 65% were EVs. That’s an 11-percentage point increase from on 2020 when they accounted for 54% of all new car sales.

The Tesla Model 3 was the most popular choice among new buyers followed by Toyota’s hybrid RAV4, the only car with an internal combustion engine to make the country’s top-ten best-selling list.

The industry estimates new electric vehicle sales could make up as much as 80% of the country’s total car market in 2022 — as long as chip shortages don’t cause further shipping delays.

Much of what’s driving EV sales in Norway is the country’s generous subsidies. Car buyers don’t have to pay taxes imposed on traditional internal combustion engine vehicles when they buy an EV. That cost the country’s federal government around $US3.4 billion in lost tax revenues – the main cost of its push to end all petrol-powered car sales by 2025.

*…………

UK demand for electric cars jumped in 2021 with a record 11.6% or 190,000 of the 1.65 million cars sold last year being battery electric vehicles. *That was up from just over 108,000 or 6.6% in the depressed 2020 year.

A further 7% of 2021 sales were plug-in hybrids and 8.9% full (or self-charging) hybrids. That means more battery electric vehicles were sold in 2021 in the UK than in the previous five years combined.

In December alone, electric cars made up 26% of sales, a record for a single month when car dealers were allowed to open during the Covid pandemic.

*Tesla’s Model 3 became the first electric car to rank in the top 10 sales in the UK in 2021*, coming in second behind the Vauxhall Corsa.

*………..

And in Australia*? Hard to know, seeing as Tesla doesn’t report its sales data to the industry body, the Federated Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI) because it doesn’t want to pay affiliation fees for the industry group and lobbyist.

The Chamber’s monthly and 2021 report, released in early January therefore is not an accurate guide.

The chamber said *electric vehicles saw an increase of 191.1% on 2020 figures*. However, battery-electric vehicles account for less than half a per cent of all new vehicles sold in Australia.  That total was 1,049,831 units, meaning total EV sales registered by the FCAI was less than 50,000 with most of those hybrids from Toyota (Prius, Lexus and Camry).

*In NZ though Tesla is the top EV seller* because sales there are registered nationally through the country’s registration body, unlike Australia with separate registries for state and territories._









						The EV Space in 2022: To infinity and beyond – ShareCafe
					

With so many electric vehicles set to enter the market from legacy and new auto makers, 2022 could well mark their commercial tipping-point. Let’s take a comprehensive look at the current state of play.




					www.sharecafe.com.au


----------



## JohnDe (25 January 2022)

Get on for the ride, or watch from behind. As BEV cumulative production increases prices decrease.


New Data Confirm the Consumer’s Increasing Preference for Battery Electric Vehicles​​

By Sam Korus | @skorusARK
Analyst​

Last year, global Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV) sales soared a record-breaking 112% from ~2.3 million to ~4.8 million units, trouncing the 1.7% growth in gas-powered vehicle sales, as shown below. Prior to last year, the most rapid annual growth rate in BEVs was 75% in 2012 on a much lower base, roughly 41,000 vehicles. Interestingly, the Wuling Mini EV, a ~$5,000 neighborhood electric vehicle, increased its share of BEVs from 5% in 2020 to 9%. Based on Wright’s Law, ARK’s research suggests that BEV sales will grow at a 53% annual rate during the next five years, from 4.8 million in 2021 to roughly 40 million in 2026.












						What Is Wright's Law | Learning Curve of Innovation
					

Wright’s Law aims to provide a reliable research framework for forecasting cost declines as a function of cumulative production.




					ark-invest.com


----------



## SirRumpole (27 January 2022)

Not specific to electric vehicles, but I don't think that there are many ICE self driving cars around.


----------



## orr (27 January 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Not specific to electric vehicles, but I don't think that there are many ICE self driving cars around.



I don't think it'll be long before there'll be a dedicated thread to 'Autonimous Vehichals' .
In the last day or so I watched a 40 odd minute youtube with a popular automotive youtuber and a journalist Micheal West. Duing the interview they both stumbled around the question of Level 5 FSD with the wrong philsophical questions... The one that wasn't asked was ...
_'when proven that 'computer controlled' cars are driving beyond the capacity of humans; What happens?_ '

Because at that point 'the human' becomes a bigger threat to..life.. injury to other humans ... And  every ancillary cost of vehical accident.
 The non-sequitur in the interview above mentioned of; 'a child killed by a FSD vehichal'  is meaningless when statistically overall road trauma is reduced by 10% then then 20% and on and on.

It should not go without mention how the above 'dove-tails' with a considerable amount emphisis put by Musk on todays TSLA  1/4  call the import advancments of FSD, and as yet how unappreciated this tech advance really is... 

Ahh .... In my humble view.... " It will Happen"


----------



## sptrawler (29 January 2022)

The Kia is popular.








						Kia EV6 electric car sold out in Australia for two years
					

Demand for Kia's new-generation electric car if off the charts. After the first batch sold out instantly, the company has put in an urgent call to double its allocation of vehicles from the factory,.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I have a few problems with this article.
> Firstly, it calls the unit a carbon neutral charger.
> These sort of statements puzzle me because the generator burns the oil from the deep fryer.
> In burning, it releases CO2 into the atmosphere, but somehow is carbon nuetral.
> ...



It’s carbon neutral because when you burn it you release co2 into the atmosphere, but it’s co2 that was originally pulled out of the air when the canola oil was originally grown.

Eg. As you burn the canola oil releasing co2, some where else a canola plant is growing and absorbing co2.

When ever you are just playing with carbon atoms that are already in circulation, it’s considered carbon neutral, it’s when you are bringing the fossilised carbon atoms out of long term storage and adding them back into circulation that problem arises.


----------



## mullokintyre (29 January 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It’s carbon neutral because when you burn it you release co2 into the atmosphere, but it’s co2 that was originally pulled out of the air when the canola oil was originally grown.
> 
> Eg. As you burn the canola oil releasing co2, some where else a canola plant is growing and absorbing co2.
> 
> When ever you are just playing with carbon atoms that are already in circulation, it’s considered carbon neutral, it’s when you are bringing the fossilised carbon atoms out of long term storage and adding them back into circulation that problem arises.



 When you bring ANY carbon atoms that have one or two oxygen molecules attached to them of long term storage the result is the same.
An increase of CO2 or CO.
The only question is, how many can you put back into storage.
If you extract oil or coal or gas and release the carbon into CO2 or CO, the same result can be achieved by planting anything that sucks up CO2.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (29 January 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> When you bring ANY carbon atoms that have one or two oxygen molecules attached to them of long term storage the result is the same.
> An increase of CO2 or CO.
> The only question is, how many can you put back into storage.
> If you extract oil or coal or gas and release the carbon into CO2 or CO, the same result can be achieved by planting anything that sucks up CO2.
> Mick



Exactly, but the CO2 that is released by burning cooking oil isn’t coming from long term fossilised storage, it’s coming from the oils pressed out of plants that were grown a few months earlier.

So as I said, you are burning canola oil (or some other plant or animal based oil), releasing CO2 but some where else a canola plant is growing extracting CO2 from the atmosphere, hence the process is described as carbon neutral.

Its like you breathing out CO2 that came from the Apple you ate earlier in the day, but at the same time another Apple is growing, so your breathing isn’t raising the CO2 in the atmosphere because it’s offset by the food crops growing around the world, there is direct link there, food grows reducing CO2 and its digested and breathed out raising CO2 its neutral.

(The only part that’s not neutral is the fossil fuels we invest into harvesting and transporting the food crops, sources of carbon neutral energy can be harnessed to replace those fossil fuels)


----------



## sptrawler (31 January 2022)

Sounds like there could be some good news for Melbourne.








						Hydrogen vehicle plant fuels hope of Melbourne manufacturing revival
					

Australia’s first purpose-built assembly plant to manufacture hydrogen-powered commercial vehicles will be built in Noble Park.




					www.theage.com.au
				



Australia’s first purpose-built assembly plant to manufacture hydrogen-powered commercial vehicles will be developed in Melbourne’s east under a plan its backers say could generate up to 100 jobs by 2025 and help to foster a new local automotive industry for the clean-energy era.

As heavy emitters across the country increasingly trial hydrogen technology to decarbonise their vehicle fleets, United States-based Hyzon Motors and the RACV on Monday will announce the details of investment to expand Hyzon’s Australian manufacturing operations into a 10,000-square-metre facility in Noble Park, at an estimated cost of more than $50 million.


----------



## qldfrog (31 January 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like there could be some good news for Melbourne.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



from a cynical experienced based view: in 3y time will be folded for a total taxpayer cost of 100M+
I am sure indeed RACV is the type of investor to do that type of investment decision


----------



## JohnDe (2 February 2022)

The EV scene is going to get interesting, Ford have just increased their investment and hired Doug Field who was instrumental in Tesla's growth.

_"former Apple Inc and Tesla executive, the report said. Doug Field, an Apple veteran who had worked at Tesla, joined Ford last year to lead the automaker’s advanced technology and embedded systems efforts."_​








						Ford to make new investment of up to $20 billion in EV push- Bloomberg News
					

Ford Motor Co is planning additional investment of up to $20 billion in building its electric vehicles, Bloomberg News reported on Tuesday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The EV scene is going to get interesting, Ford have just increased their investment and hired Doug Field who was instrumental in Tesla's growth.
> 
> _"former Apple Inc and Tesla executive, the report said. Doug Field, an Apple veteran who had worked at Tesla, joined Ford last year to lead the automaker’s advanced technology and embedded systems efforts."_​
> 
> ...



The legacy companies have very deep pockets, buying in talent makes a lot of sense, retooling and adapting would be pretty easy for Ford, GM etc.
Technical knowledge and experience with EV's, will be what they are lacking. What worked and what didnt work, in the development phase of Tesla.


----------



## qldfrog (2 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The legacy companies have very deep pockets, buying in talent makes a lot of sense, retooling and adapting would be pretty easy for Ford, GM etc.
> Technical knowledge and experience with EV's, will be what they are lacking. What worked and what didnt work, in the development phase of Tesla.



Not really, honestly, not much to learn.
And the software part..which is pretty Much the critical bit left in EV is not vomplete unknown.
YouR main manufacturers have had auto park, auto start, lane tracking emergency braking etc etc for years.
The real issue is the legacy of workers to get rid of and pension liabilities


----------



## sptrawler (2 February 2022)

Which they are doing as we speak, most are changing to online ordering, which gets rid of the showroom, next step sub out the workshop to automasters. Lol
Simple really.
Also get rid of cheap ICE models, so that the choice is just about power unit, not cost.
I see in todays media, MG are increasing the price of their cheapest models, even the ones that are already sitting on the showroom floor. Lol


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> When you bring ANY carbon atoms that have one or two oxygen molecules attached to them of long term storage the result is the same.
> An increase of CO2 or CO.



In an instantaneous sense that's true but it's of no consequence if that carbon is being removed from the air in a short timeframe.

Much like shuffling money from one bank account to another isn't really spending or earning.

The climate change issue is about a long term increase in CO2 concentration in the atmosphere. Releasing some today, and taking it back out again to grow the next crop, isn't causing a long term increase. Doubly so if the thing being burned, the waste oil, is going to be produced and somehow disposed of whether it's put to use or not.


----------



## mullokintyre (3 February 2022)

Heres a video of what one 'expert" thinks will be the top 5 SUV that may provide competition for the Cybertruck.
I had never heard of two of the brands, but they are American.

Been trying to organise a test drive of the Hundai Ionic 5.
May as well have asked for a test drive of the space station.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (3 February 2022)

As a follow up to the remark I made above about test driving the Hyundai Ionic 5,  the local regional dealer got back to me and said that they were not an EV dealer.
It seems that to sell EV's , the dealership has to have a trained EV service team, as well as a section of the workshop devoted to EV's.
His statement to me was that they were unwilling to  spend 300k on setting up the specialised team and workshop unless they could sell  at least 50 EV cars a year, and even then it would take ten years to break even.
I am not keen on having to drive 200kms to Melbourne every time I need to get a service done.
Once again highlights the difficulties faced in getting  widespread usage of EV's outside the capital cities.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (3 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As a follow up to the remark I made above about test driving the Hyundai Ionic 5,  the local regional dealer got back to me and said that they were not an EV dealer.
> It seems that to sell EV's , the dealership has to have a trained EV service team, as well as a section of the workshop devoted to EV's.
> His statement to me was that they were unwilling to  spend 300k on setting up the specialised team and workshop unless they could sell  at least 50 EV cars a year, and even then it would take ten years to break even.
> I am not keen on having to drive 200kms to Melbourne every time I need to get a service done.
> ...



The good thing about the 200km drive to Melbourne, by the time it is serviced, it should be recharged and be good to go back home. 🤣


----------



## rederob (3 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> It seems that to sell EV's , the dealership has to have a trained EV service team, as well as a section of the workshop devoted to EV's.



Any qualified mechanic or auto electrician can service an EV.
Dealerships have their own rules and none require you to return your vehicle to them unless you somehow have a purchasing agreement that locks you in, like Tesla's *Resale Value Guarantee*.  
I have only ever returned to a dealership to have warranty repairs carried out.


----------



## JohnDe (3 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As a follow up to the remark I made above about test driving the Hyundai Ionic 5,  the local regional dealer got back to me and said that they were not an EV dealer.
> It seems that to sell EV's , the dealership has to have a trained EV service team, as well as a section of the workshop devoted to EV's.
> His statement to me was that they were unwilling to  spend 300k on setting up the specialised team and workshop unless they could sell  at least 50 EV cars a year, and even then it would take ten years to break even.
> I am not keen on having to drive 200kms to Melbourne every time I need to get a service done.
> ...




Take a Tesla for a test drive. it's simple, go online and book it.

As for servicing - 









						Vehicle Maintenance | Tesla Support Australia
					

Unlike gasoline cars, Tesla vehicles require no traditional oil changes, fuel filters, spark plug replacements or emission checks.




					www.tesla.com


----------



## mullokintyre (3 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Take a Tesla for a test drive. it's simple, go online and book it.
> 
> As for servicing -
> 
> ...



My wife, for whom I am buying this car, will not spend  $150,000 to get the equivalent of her CX5 that he loves and only paid about 50k for.
The servicing for the Tesla will be exactly the same problem as the IONIC 5, having to go to Melbourne to get it done.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (3 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> My wife, for whom I am buying this car, will not spend  $150,000 to get the equivalent of her CX5 that he loves and only paid about 50k for.
> The servicing for the Tesla will be exactly the same problem as the IONIC 5, having to go to Melbourne to get it done.
> Mick




Then you'd be better sticking with the Mazda CX5

_"expect the TESLA entry-level model Y to kick off around the *$80,000 *mark."_​​_*Key rivals include:*_​​
_Audi e-tron 50 quattro: $137,100_
_BMW iX3: $114,900_
_Hyundai Ioniq 5 AWD: $75,900_
_Kia EV6: $TBC_
_Mercedes-Benz EQC 400 4Matic: $124,300_
_Polestar 2 Long Range Dual Motor: $69,900_
_Volvo XC40 Recharge Pure Electric: $76,990_









						2022 Tesla Model Y review: First drive
					

Tesla scored a smash hit with the Model 3 compact saloon. Surely an SUV version is certain for even greater success?




					www.carexpert.com.au
				




*Read the Tesla service link* I gave you, there is hardly anything to service and what there is is every 2 years. Any workshop with a qualified mechanic can do it and not void the warranty


----------



## basilio (4 February 2022)

Next step.  It's here.
Driverless electric cars for ordinary people.

Check out Cruise.









						Autonomous Vehicle Technology | Driverless Cars | Cruise
					

Discover how Cruise's self driving car technology enables our autonomous vehicles to safely navigate city streets & safely take you where you want to go.




					www.getcruise.com


----------



## Value Collector (4 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Next step.  It's here.
> Driverless electric cars for ordinary people.
> 
> Check out Cruise.
> ...




The best part about this type of tech is the freedom it’s going to bring to people that can’t get licences like the elderly and people with vision impairments or other disabilities.

When Grandma can turn up at events or do her shopping etc without relying on others to drive her she will have a whole new sense of independence


----------



## JohnDe (4 February 2022)

basilio said:


> Next step.  It's here.
> Driverless electric cars for ordinary people.
> 
> Check out Cruise.
> ...





The finished product looks like a mini bus.

Saw them trialing something like this in San Francisco January 2018 while on holiday, thought it an amazing idea.


----------



## basilio (4 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The finished product looks like a mini bus.
> 
> Saw them trialing something like this in San Francisco January 2018 while on holiday, thought it an amazing idea.
> 
> View attachment 137027




The video isn't the mini bus you showed. That certainly exists but they have set up an electric car with the multiple cameras/sensors for their Cruise story. I think it is intended to show people how many cameras they have and focus it on 1-2 -3 people using it rather than the 6 or so in the mini bus.

But it's cool alright.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 February 2022)

A company in Adelaide came up with some innovation in this area a couple of years ago:


----------



## JohnDe (4 February 2022)

basilio said:


> The video isn't the mini bus you showed. That certainly exists but they have set up an electric car with the multiple cameras/sensors for their Cruise story. I think it is intended to show people how many cameras they have and focus it on 1-2 -3 people using it rather than the 6 or so in the mini bus.
> 
> But it's cool alright.




Yeah I watched the video, the photo I got from their web site -









						Autonomous Vehicle Technology | Driverless Cars | Cruise
					

Discover how Cruise's self driving car technology enables our autonomous vehicles to safely navigate city streets & safely take you where you want to go.




					www.getcruise.com


----------



## noirua (6 February 2022)

20 January 2022


----------



## qldfrog (6 February 2022)

noirua said:


> 20 January 2022




Should be linked in both post Covid and Reset thread


----------



## sptrawler (6 February 2022)

Perth had the driverless bus on the foreshore, a while back.








						Driverless bus trial in South Perth an Australian first
					

Australia's first driverless shuttle bus is being trialled along the foreshore in South Perth, with the RAC saying they are safer than cars with drivers.




					www.abc.net.au
				












						Climb Aboard The Future, The RAC Intellibus® Is Back In South Perth
					

The driverless future is fast approaching, and RAC is getting ahead of the curve with the RAC Intellibus® - the longest running automated vehicle trial in




					perthisok.com


----------



## sptrawler (7 February 2022)

Koenigsegg reveals world's 'most power-dense' electric motor
					

The 28kg unit produces out more power than a Toyota GR Yaris hot hatch and nearly as much torque as a Toyota LandCruiser 200 Series four-wheel-drive.




					www.drive.com.au
				



The manufacturer says its newest technology will find use in a wide variety of in-house and external applications, including electric vehicles, aerospace engineering, and the marine industry.
Initially, three of the Quark motors will join a 2.0-litre turbocharged three-cylinder petrol engine in the upcoming 1268kW Koenigsegg Gemera hybrid hypercar (shown above).


----------



## sptrawler (8 February 2022)

I can't see a car industry getting any traction in Australia, due to the size of the market place, but to me it makes sense to get a battery manufacturing industry up and running.









						‘Advantages other nations would die for’: Push to build electric cars in Australia
					

A new report has found Australia should offer global manufacturers incentives to set up an electric car industry given all the natural advantages the nation enjoys.




					www.smh.com.au
				



Australia could build a successful domestic electric vehicle industry by offering major global manufacturers tax incentives to establish a local base and create jobs in communities that are transitioning from carbon-intensive industries, a new report has identified.

Industry and the union movement have endorsed the findings from the Centre for Future Work, released on Tuesday, which also recommends tax breaks for mining companies involved in the extraction of key minerals – primarily lithium and rare earths – to boost local manufacturing capabilities, especially emerging EV battery industries.

Australia is the world’s biggest producer of lithium and accounts for an estimated 30 per cent of known resources. Most lithium in Australia, however, is exported as spodumene concentrate, rather than refined battery-ready material.

The plan said capturing opportunities in the electric vehicle and battery energy storage supply chain could create 34,700 jobs in Australia by 2030, while global demand for batteries has been forecast to increase tenfold to reach $151 billion by the same year.


----------



## qldfrog (8 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I can't see a car industry getting any traction in Australia, due to the size of the market place, but to me it makes sense to get a battery manufacturing industry up and running.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Absolutely crazy..no way
.battery factories yes but you will still have to face with the business environment here.
@noirua had a fantaslic link to a NY, California, Arizona and Texas comparison you tube link explaining the migration of business and talent.
Where do you think Australia position is in term of business:
California or Arizona?
Not a tight finish..so we will follow California but wo the high tech...
We could not even be competitive with Arizona, let alone Asia...
Dreams


----------



## mullokintyre (8 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I can't see a car industry getting any traction in Australia, due to the size of the market place, but to me it makes sense to get a battery manufacturing industry up and running.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why is it we have to offer Tax incentives to  manufacturers from other countries to set up shop?
This country poured huge amounts of subsidies  into the likes of GM, Ford, Toyota etc  and where did it get us?
We now have no national industry, and rely on other countries to produce RHD versions of mostly LHD vehicles made for conditions foreign to us.
Subsidies are like import tariffs and duties, another factor that distorts the market.
If the a business model cannot be sustained without subsides, incentives etc, its a failed model.
The government may as well just build cheap Chinese cars at twice the cost here in OZ, rather than giving the money to multinationals.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (8 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I can't see a car industry getting any traction in Australia, due to the size of the market place, but to me it makes sense to get a battery manufacturing industry up and running.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Battery development and manufacture in Australia has a strong chance of happening. Though I think it will be batteries for storage solutions, rather than vehicles. Tesla showed the way in savings by having the battery factories close to the vehicle manufacturing plants, at the time they managed 30% savings.

If Australia can take advantage of our natural resources to create electricity, we could also manufacture cheap batteries and sell them fully charged, thus exporting batteries and energy.

_Diversified battery industries could contribute $7.4 billion annually to Australia’s economy and support 34,700 jobs by 2030, according to a new report (June 2021) prepared for the Future Battery Industries Cooperative Research Centre (FBICRC)_​








						Australia’s $7.4 billion opportunity in future battery industries - Future Battery
					

New report reveals diversified battery industries could add 34,700 Australian jobs by 2030 Diversified battery industries could contribute $7.4 billion




					fbicrc.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (8 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Battery development and manufacture in Australia has a strong chance of happening. Though I think it will be batteries for storage solutions, rather than vehicles. Tesla showed the way in savings by having the battery factories close to the vehicle manufacturing plants, at the time they managed 30% savings.



As I said a couple of years ago, the BP oil refinery at Kwinana, which is closing down, is bordered by both a new purpose built battery quality nickel sulphate plant and a new lithium hydroxide plant.
There is also port facilities alongside and it is an established industrial area, if one doesn't get built there, then I doubt the numbers will stack up anywhere in Australia.


----------



## JohnDe (8 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Koenigsegg reveals world's 'most power-dense' electric motor
> 
> 
> The 28kg unit produces out more power than a Toyota GR Yaris hot hatch and nearly as much torque as a Toyota LandCruiser 200 Series four-wheel-drive.
> ...




Looks similar to the motor that you posted - 








__





						100% Electric Commercial Vehicles | SEA Electric | Zero Emissions Vehicle
					

Electric commercial vehicles with a 100% electric power-system. Contact us to find out more and support our journey to net-zero emissions.




					www.sea-electric.com


----------



## sptrawler (8 February 2022)

Yes, the electric motor technology will move along in leaps and bounds. In the past actual motor design hasn't had a lot of time spent on it, as it was pretty efficient anyway, most of the development went into speed control and peripheral control systems.


----------



## Jeda (8 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As I said a couple of years ago, the BP oil refinery at Kwinana, which is closing down, is bordered by both a new purpose built battery quality nickel sulphate plant and a new lithium hydroxide plant.
> There is also port facilities alongside and it is an established industrial area, if one doesn't get built there, then I doubt the numbers will stack up anywhere in Australia.




sptrawler & JD i think you're both onto something  ✌️ i saw a paper on this last year written in cooperation with mutliple stakeholders



> JD -  Australia can take advantage of our natural resources to create electricity, we could also manufacture cheap batteries and sell them fully charged, thus exporting batteries and energy


----------



## Humid (8 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As I said a couple of years ago, the BP oil refinery at Kwinana, which is closing down, is bordered by both a new purpose built battery quality nickel sulphate plant and a new lithium hydroxide plant.
> There is also port facilities alongside and it is an established industrial area, if one doesn't get built there, then I doubt the numbers will stack up anywhere in Australia.



I thought they were stopping refining and still using it as a terminal


----------



## sptrawler (8 February 2022)

Humid said:


> I thought they were stopping refining and still using it as a terminal



That's possible, a couple of mates work there, so I will try and find out, it would still leave a huge area available to build on.
Also one would think BP would be looking to diversify from oil.


----------



## qldfrog (8 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> If the a business model cannot be sustained without subsides, incentives etc, its a failed model.
> The government may as well just build cheap Chinese cars at twice the cost here in OZ, rather than giving the money to multinationals.
> Mick



Too true, if we need subsidies to get an economic model, it is a dead end, that tax money should go to reducing red and green tape and overall parasitic dead weight attached to all business.
No one is worse than government to select an industrial commercial winning, and so many reason for that:
voter pressure, no skin in game, corruption, business illiterate narrow minded deciders who are not selected on competencies not even breeding...


----------



## qldfrog (8 February 2022)

Jeda said:


> sptrawler & JD i think you're both onto something  ✌️ i saw a paper on this last year written in cooperation with mutliple stakeholders



definitively not too charged  , the potential risks attached on doing so amd extra cost in physical separation, transport issues and safety requirements will never justify teh few cents of saving loading here , even if we change from one of he most expensive power on earth to cheapest ...


----------



## mullokintyre (8 February 2022)

So why I ask myself does not a shipping company fill a large ship full of batteries, sit next to a windfarm/ solar farm near the ship and store all that extra energy and when fully charged, sail off into the sunset and sell the stored electricity to Thailand, or  Japan, or Korea or the Phillipines.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (8 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> So why I ask myself does not a shipping company fill a large ship full of batteries, sit next to a windfarm/ solar farm near the ship and store all that extra energy and when fully charged, sail off into the sunset and sell the stored electricity to Thailand, or  Japan, or Korea or the Phillipines.
> Mick




Show us which battery company has enough reserve capacity to fill a container ship with batteries


----------



## Value Collector (8 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Why is it we have to offer Tax incentives to  manufacturers from other countries to set up shop?
> This country poured huge amounts of subsidies  into the likes of GM, Ford, Toyota etc  and where did it get us?
> We now have no national industry, and rely on other countries to produce RHD versions of mostly LHD vehicles made for conditions foreign to us.
> Subsidies are like import tariffs and duties, another factor that distorts the market.
> ...



It can make sense for governments to attract big employers because it shortens dole lines (reduces government spending) while increases the number of people paying income tax (increases government revenue).

I am not saying it makes sense in all cases, but the government investing in a few tax breaks and incentives here and there when done intelligently can actually provide good returns back to the tax payer.


----------



## Value Collector (8 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> So why I ask myself does not a shipping company fill a large ship full of batteries, sit next to a windfarm/ solar farm near the ship and store all that extra energy and when fully charged, sail off into the sunset and sell the stored electricity to Thailand, or  Japan, or Korea or the Phillipines.
> Mick



At the moment it’s cheaper to sell them LNG and Coal.

But FMG wants to basically do what you are saying except instead of charging batteries they want to transport the energy by using liquid hydrogen or ammonia.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> At the moment it’s cheaper to sell them LNG and Coal.
> 
> But FMG wants to basically do what you are saying except instead of charging batteries they want to transport the energy by using liquid hydrogen or ammonia.



So you use energy to create the hydrogen or the ammonia, then export those products.
Why not just export the energy, its certainly renewable.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (8 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> So why I ask myself does not a shipping company fill a large ship full of batteries, sit next to a windfarm/ solar farm near the ship and store all that extra energy and when fully charged, sail off into the sunset and sell the stored electricity to Thailand, or  Japan, or Korea or the Phillipines.
> Mick




Which battery company has enough reserve capacity to fill a container ship with batteries?


----------



## Value Collector (8 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> So you use energy to create the hydrogen or the ammonia, then export those products.
> Why not just export the energy, its certainly renewable.
> Mick



You have to store the energy in some form to transport it, storing it as battery power or hydrogen both have pros and cons, one question would be due to battery power being less dense than liquid hydrogen, how many extra battery ships do you need to carry the amount of energy that can be stored in 1 hydrogen ship.

some people have proposed laying a cable from Australia to Asia to export the electricity but then you have to compare the energy losses of the cable to energy losses of a ship, and you also have to produce power in real time rather than store it.


----------



## sptrawler (8 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> So you use energy to create the hydrogen or the ammonia, then export those products.
> Why not just export the energy, its certainly renewable.
> Mick



As VC has pointed out it all goes back to energy density, how much energy you can store in a given space.
Quick google:
*hydrogen has* an energy density of 35,000 watts per kilogram, while lithium-ion batteries have a density of just 200 watts per kilogram.


----------



## qldfrog (8 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> So why I ask myself does not a shipping company fill a large ship full of batteries, sit next to a windfarm/ solar farm near the ship and store all that extra energy and when fully charged, sail off into the sunset and sell the stored electricity to Thailand, or  Japan, or Korea or the Phillipines.
> Mick



because a small oil tanker can do the same for much cheaper?


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Why not just export the energy, its certainly renewable.



As a means of getting short duration peak power, batteries are very workable and there's plenty of interest in them and $ being spent for that reason.

Case in point, the well known "Tesla Big Battery" in SA is no longer the largest in Australia, because there's a larger one now operating in Victoria, and it won't even be the largest in SA for much longer given that AGL have one under construction right now on the outskirts of Adelaide. That's an AGL project as such, not a government one, being built at an expected cost of $180 million with the expectation that normal operations will recover that with profit.

As a means of storing bulk energy though batteries are still prohibitively expensive. That $180 million gets just 250 MWh of storage* versus Snowy 2.0 presently under construction at 350,000 MWh or the present Hydro Tasmania system which when full stores 14,400,000 MWh.

For peak power batteries stack up but as a means of bulk energy storage they're still several orders of magnitude too expensive. They might be put on a ship to power the ship but they'd be a seriously expensive means of transporting energy as such.  

*Full specs of the battery being built are 250 MW peak power with 250 MWh of storage so a run time of 1 hour at full output. It's designed to be expandable up to 1000 MWh whilst retaining the same 250MW peak output, so an increase to 4 hours storage, if future circumstances make it viable to do so but there's no commitment from or obligation on the company to go ahead with that expansion, it's just a case of designing the basics such as site layout etc to be able to easily add that on later if a decision is made to do so.


----------



## bk1 (8 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> *hydrogen has* an energy density of 35,000 watts per kilogram



Why are you using the unit of work (W) when describing energy?

On a mass basis, hydrogen has nearly three times the energy content of petrol — 120 MJ/kg for hydrogen versus 44 MJ/kg for petrol.
On a volume basis, however, the situation is reversed, liquid hydrogen has a density of 8 MJ/L whereas petrol has a density of 32 MJ/L.
Energy density is the amount of energy that can be released by a given mass or volume of fuel.
One of the most efficient energy *storage *devices, a lithium battery, has one of the lowest energy density.


----------



## JohnDe (8 February 2022)

“The price of lithium-ion battery cells declined by 97% in the last three decades. A battery with a capacity of one kilowatt-hour that cost $7500 in 1991, was just $181 in 2018. That’s 41 times less. What’s promising is that prices are still falling steeply: the cost halved between 2014 and 2018. A halving in only four years.”









						The price of batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades
					

To transition towards low-carbon energy systems we need low-cost energy storage. Battery costs have been falling quickly.




					ourworldindata.org


----------



## sptrawler (8 February 2022)

bk1 said:


> Why are you using the unit of work (W) when describing energy?
> 
> On a mass basis, hydrogen has nearly three times the energy content of petrol — 120 MJ/kg for hydrogen versus 44 MJ/kg for petrol.
> On a volume basis, however, the situation is reversed, liquid hydrogen has a density of 8 MJ/L whereas petrol has a density of 32 MJ/L.
> ...



Because I was trying to keep it simple, he was asking about using batteries as a medium for carrying bulk electricity, therefore I answered in the units he was using.
By the way if you want to discuss energy, Im up for it, that would be fun.
Maybe over in the future of energy and storage thread.
By the way, why did you bring petrol into the conversation, when it was about ship loads of batteries vs ship loads of hydrogen as a means of transferring electrical energy.
Also just for your info, there are several types of lithium batteries and they all have different energy densities, well that's if you want to be accurate and you appear to be pretty pedantic. Lol


----------



## Investoradam (9 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Because I was trying to keep it simple, he was asking about using batteries as a medium for carrying bulk electricity, therefore I answered in the units he was using.
> By the way if you want to discuss energy, Im up for it, that would be fun.
> Maybe over in the future of energy and storage thread.
> By the way, why did you bring petrol into the conversation, when it was about ship loads of batteries vs ship loads of hydrogen as a means of transferring electrical energy.
> Also just for your info, there are several types of lithium batteries and they all have different energy densities, well that's if you want to be accurate and you appear to be pretty pedantic. Lol



tantrum thrown.

the electric car has been around since the 80s and hydrogen many decades before hand. nothing is even spoken a out the amount of toxic materials are used to make the Evs and how they are disposed of?


----------



## sptrawler (9 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> tantrum thrown.
> 
> the electric car has been around since the 80s and hydrogen many decades before hand. nothing is even spoken a out the amount of toxic materials are used to make the Evs and how they are disposed of?



Not a tantrum, just a statement of facts mate, by the way electric cars have been around for a 100 years, just to get you up to speed.
They have been around as long as ICE cars.
If you read on the stock section of the forum, a company called neometals NMT has developed a method of stripping lithiom ion batteries for recycling, some of us are up 400% on them.
Maybe read a few threads, rather than looking for an argument, you might make some money.
Try the search function on the home page.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> nothing is even spoken a out the amount of toxic materials are used to make the Evs and how they are disposed of?



Whilst true that also applies to most things.

It's only from 2004 that we finally banned the use of asbestos brakes in cars for example and leaded petrol wasn't banned until 2002, indeed the phase out of it didn't even begin until 1985 prior to which all petrol sold to the public in Australia contained lead.

2004, 2002 or even 1985 isn't _that_ long ago really. The latter's well within the lifetime of the bulk of the present population and even 1985 is within living memory for many. There'd still be a few low mileage vehicles around today with asbestos brakes on them, leaving behind a cloud of death dust every time they stop.

Those old enough will probably remember that James Hardie used to sponsor motor racing indeed they had the naming rights to Bathurst. The James Hardie Bathurst 1000 as it was always referred to in the media.

Then there's other forms of transport. Diesel trains still ran through the underground network in Sydney in the 1990's for example. Diesels underground yes - and that was high sulphur diesel, 5000ppm, back then leaving behind a cloud of black smoke.

The entire concept of concern about toxics in association with transport is a recent thing really and still by no means fully resolved today. Even as a child I knew that inhaling car exhaust was a way to commit suicide and that there was a good reason why car drivers avoided following buses too closely - the fumes they put out in the past was really quite something and not in a good way.

At least with an electric vehicle the toxic materials are contained within the car or at the factory, they're not being spewed out into the air in urban environments and so on.

In any event they're coming and trying to stop them is akin to someone in 1985 trying to stop the adoption of CD's or someone 15 years ago trying to stop the rise of smartphones. It's happening, the tipping point has been passed, so the smart thing to do is position yourself to take advantage of it, invest in companies that can benefit from this change, rather than being left behind.


----------



## qldfrog (9 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Not a tantrum, just a statement of facts mate, by the way electric cars have been around for a 100 years, just to get you up to speed.
> They have been around as long as ICE cars.
> If you read on the stock section of the forum, a company called neometals NMT has developed a method of stripping lithiom ion batteries for recycling, some of us are up 400% on them.
> Maybe read a few threads, rather than looking for an argument, you might make some money.
> Try the search function on the home page.



Mr @sptrawler seems like your premier's lockdowns might not stop viruses but definitively worked to keep people on edge and put on nerves. 
 Today is a new day


----------



## Value Collector (9 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> tantrum thrown.
> 
> the electric car has been around since the 80s and hydrogen many decades before hand. nothing is even spoken a out the amount of toxic materials are used to make the Evs and how they are disposed of?



Actually we have discussed that many times on this thread, in short over their life EV’s will pollute far less that petrol cars, and the battery materials will be recycled into new batteries at the end of their life.


----------



## sptrawler (9 February 2022)

The demise of the ICE car is being accelerated by stricter and stricter emission standards, Nissan is the latest company to annoubce no further development work on ICE engines.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/nissa...m.au&utm_content=article_2&utm_medium=partner
New Euro 7 emissions regulations will come into force as early as 2025 in Europe – which Nissan has reportedly determined will "raise the cost of developing internal combustion engines to unsustainable levels", according to _Nikkei Asia_.
Nissan will redirect its budget for petrol car and engine development – a significant portion of an annual 500 billion Japanese yen ($AU6.1 billion) sum – towards electric vehicles, _Nikkei Asia_ reports, with employees currently working on new petrol engines to be diverted to electric car-related projects over time.


----------



## bk1 (9 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Because I was trying to keep it simple




Seems fair...


----------



## mullokintyre (9 February 2022)

According to Todays Australian


> Brisbane-based electric vehicle charging company Tritium will build a giant factory in the US as the world’s biggest economy moves to decarbonise its transport network.
> Tritium will open a factory in Lebanon, Tennessee, capable of producing 30,000 charging stations a year, backing President Joe Biden’s ambitions to create a national network of chargers.
> 
> President Biden praised the investment by Tritium which will create 500 jobs, The Washington Post reported.
> ...



Pity we couldn't get such a factory built in OZ, but I guess Tritum is a US public company, even if its engineering hub is in Brisbane.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (10 February 2022)

The EV production is ramping up.








						Nickel price buoyed by strong demand, dwindling stocks
					

Nickel prices held near their highest in more than two months on Monday, boosted by demand from the electric vehicle battery sector lowering stocks held in London Metal Exchange (LME) approved warehouses.




					www.reuters.com
				



From the article:
Benchmark nickel on the LME was up 0.3% at $20,790 a tonne at 1707 GMT having last week touched $21,165 a tonne, the highest since November 24.

"Nickel stocks in LME warehouses are being drawn because they can be used to make nickel sulphate for the batteries used in electric vehicles," said ING analyst Wenyu Yao.
Electric vehicle demand has been particularly strong in China, where Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE), General Motors (GM.N), Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) and Tesla (TSLA.O) are ramping up production. read more

INVENTORIES: Nickel stocks in LME warehouses at 99,954 tonnes have fallen by around 62% since April 2021.

About 75% of the total is bagged briquette, easily crushed into small particles and dissolved in sulphuric acid to make nickel sulphate.
Cancelled warrants -- metal earmarked for delivery -- at 49% of total stocks indicate more metal is due to be delivered out over the coming days and weeks.

SPREADS: Worries about nickel supplies on the LME market have created a premium of $125 a tonne for the cash over the three-month contract , a one-month high.


----------



## mullokintyre (10 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> According to Todays Australian
> 
> Pity we couldn't get such a factory built in OZ, but I guess Tritum is a US public company, even if its engineering hub is in Brisbane.
> Mick



Watched a report on this on SBS news last night.
The reporter called it an Australian Company.
I doubt that he even did a cursory check, just reproduced the press reports put out by the media spruikers.
Mick


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## Jeda (10 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Watched a report on this on SBS news last night.
> The reporter called it an Australian Company.
> I doubt that he even did a cursory check, just reproduced the press reports put out by the media spruikers.
> Mick




they do have their corporate headquarters at 48 Miller Street, Murarrie QLD 4172, Australia


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## mullokintyre (10 February 2022)

Jeda said:


> they do have their corporate headquarters at 48 Miller Street, Murarrie QLD 4172, Australia



My apologies, the article stated that their engineering office was in Brisbane.
You are correct, the US website says that their corporate office is also in Brisbane.
Hear that sound?
Its me wiping the egg off my face.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (10 February 2022)

These guys do regular towing tests of vehicles over a set course in the Rockies.
During winter, towing a tandem trailer where the total weight of the trailer and its load was a tad over 8,000 pounds (3.5 tonnes in in our language). Its a pretty big test.
This time they tested out a Rivian EV.
Theres no doubt that it handled the tow with aplomb.
The problem was the range.


Mick


----------



## sptrawler (11 February 2022)

Tesla's auto pilot needs a bit of work.








						Tesla driver on autopilot crashes into police car, two officers in the US
					

Chilling footage of a Tesla crashing into a police car – and two officers standing next to it – has been released in the US, as road safety authorities continue to probe the controversial technology.




					www.drive.com.au
				




Reminds me of an apprentice who came to work looking sorry for himself, he said he had pranged his car and he was drunk, I said it could have been worse you could have hurt someone, he said it is bad enough the car he ran into was a Rolls Royce. 🤣


----------



## Craton (11 February 2022)

...and progress marches on.

EV charging stations have made it into the far west of NSW. With the first NRMA charging station installed we now have two although the Tesla Destination Charger, me thinks is probably not for public use.


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## Macquack (11 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> These guys do regular towing tests of vehicles over a set course in the Rockies.
> During winter, towing a tandem trailer where the total weight of the trailer and its load was a tad over 8,000 pounds (3.5 tonnes in in our language). Its a pretty big test.
> This time they tested out a Rivian EV.
> Theres no doubt that it handled the tow with aplomb.
> ...




The Rivian is one ugly looking "truck".

The only logic I can see is that it is very recognisable and you won't confuse the Rivian with other manufacturers. 

The trick is to make your car easily recognisable and aesthetically pleasing at the same time. Porsche comes to mind.


----------



## JohnDe (11 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Tesla's auto pilot needs a bit of work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




"_Although the incident occurred in August 2020, the police department in North Carolina only released the video footage this week._"


----------



## JohnDe (11 February 2022)

Macquack said:


> The Rivian is one ugly looking "truck".
> 
> The only logic I can see is that it is very recognisable and you won't confuse the Rivian with other manufacturers.
> 
> The trick is to make your car easily recognisable and aesthetically pleasing at the same time. Porsche comes to mind.




The Rivian truck has been on a long road of development. 

Long Way Up 
2020


----------



## mullokintyre (11 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The Rivian truck has been on a long road of development.
> 
> Long Way Up
> 2020




Yes it has been on a long road of development, which I guess explains why it is actually in production, unlike some others.
mick


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## qldfrog (14 February 2022)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...hargers-v2g-v2h-to-arrive-australia/100811130
And then i look at the price,....delays.... and why..aka red tape .
and i shake my head.
But thanks God the charger is cheaper than a home battery so it's a win ROL
ABC......
Let's be Australian: 
At least the option is getting available And that is a plus👍


----------



## Jeda (14 February 2022)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...hargers-v2g-v2h-to-arrive-australia/100811130
> And then i look at the price,....delays.... and why..aka red tape .
> and i shake my head.
> But thanks God the charger is cheaper than a home battery so it's a win ROL
> ...




What's the garantte against bruing your hose down?









						Warning about maintaining solar panel batteries after Adelaide house badly damaged in fire
					

A fire that started in a solar panel battery badly damages a house in Adelaide's northern suburbs, in what the Metropolitan Fire Service says is a growing problem across Australia.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (14 February 2022)

Jeda said:


> What's the garantte against bruing your hose down?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is an interesting issue, I wonder if it will bring new rules or insurance issues.









						Safety warning after household item sparks devastating fire
					

The WA grandparents escaped their home just in time as it went up in flames.




					7news.com.au
				












						Garage erupts in flames from scooter battery spark
					






					www.9news.com.au
				












						E-bike suspected cause of huge Australia house fire
					

The bike was left on charge overnight at the three-level house in Sydney, firefighters says.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## qldfrog (14 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is an interesting issue, I wonder if it will bring new rules or insurance issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it would make sense to house the batteries in a separate building.protected from elements but ventilated.i still hope to move and be 100pc self suficient in my new place.batteries will have to go in an outbuilding


----------



## Humid (14 February 2022)

Thinking about putting timers on my chargers
drills,vacuum,e bike .....particularly ones with after market ebay batteries


----------



## Value Collector (14 February 2022)

Jeda said:


> What's the garantte against bruing your hose down?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ev’s are actually far less likely to catch on fire than petrol cars…. by a lot.

according to stats from the USA, when it comes to petrol cars 1,500 cars out of every 100,000 built catch fire, where as with Ev’s only 25 out of every 100,000 catch fire.

————————-
You always have to compare statistics, a problem can be a “growing problem” with out being a major problem, and without being a larger problem than others.

it is 100% certain that as more and more Ev’s are built we will see more and more reports of Ev fires, but that doesn’t mean they are less safe than the cars they are replacing, it’s just petrol car fires don’t even make the news because there is to many of them.

While ev fires will be a “growing problem”, they are replacing a huge exisiting problem.

same will the reports of auto pilot crashes, what’s important is not that crashes happen, but whether they happen less than human driver crashes.

https://thedriven.io/2022/01/11/evs...g-fire-but-hybrids-more-risky-data-shows/amp/


----------



## moXJO (16 February 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I think it would make sense to house the batteries in a separate building.protected from elements but ventilated.i still hope to move and be 100pc self suficient in my new place.batteries will have to go in an outbuilding



I thought this was already the case?

I wouldn't be sticking them inside or attached.


----------



## moXJO (16 February 2022)

Guy I was talking to had a problem on a popular route. Went to charge and there were 6 or 7 cars in front of him when he arrived at the charge station.


----------



## qldfrog (16 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I thought this was already the case?
> 
> I wouldn't be sticking them inside or attached.



not really->your standard suburban house has no separate outbuilding to house batteries
EVs and associated batteries etc are currently ..and for a while..for the top %.


----------



## JohnDe (16 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> Guy I was talking to had a problem on a popular route. Went to charge and there were 6 or 7 cars in front of him when he arrived at the charge station.




Tell him to buy a Tesla, they charge faster. Taking mine on a cross border holiday next month which will require 3 stops through a popular route, I’ll post my experience & and expenses.


----------



## moXJO (16 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Tell him to buy a Tesla, they charge faster. Taking mine on a cross border holiday next month which will require 3 stops through a popular route, I’ll post my experience & and expenses.
> 
> View attachment 137612



Yeah he has one. Problem was the lack of charge stations and that many cars before him. Govt will have to get serious about it. Surely they would know bottlenecks.


----------



## moXJO (16 February 2022)

Macquack said:


> The Rivian is one ugly looking "truck".
> 
> The only logic I can see is that it is very recognisable and you won't confuse the Rivian with other manufacturers.
> 
> The trick is to make your car easily recognisable and aesthetically pleasing at the same time. Porsche comes to mind.



I wouldn't mind one (lots of features), but the front end looks crap. Another problem seems to be the range towing heavy weight. I wonder how they would go towing a caravan?


----------



## sptrawler (16 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I wouldn't mind one (lots of features), but the front end looks crap. Another problem seems to be the range towing heavy weight. I wonder how they would go towing a caravan?



ARB will sort out the front end, there is a lot of room for improvement as you say, a bullbar and a couple of 9" spotties would hide a lot of the uglyness.


----------



## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I wouldn't mind one (lots of features), but the front end looks crap. Another problem seems to be the range towing heavy weight. I wonder how they would go towing a caravan?



From the Video I posted where they towed a tandem trailer with an F150 on it over the rockies, they said it tows really well, indeed its torque allowed it to out accelerate the  accompanying RAM truck even with the trailer attached to the Rivan.
Rivian also reccommended using load levellers, and with its hydraulic suspension lifting capabilities, it is relatively easy to get the chassis line of both the towed entity and the towing entity nicely in line.
So it looks like more than capable as a towing medium.
Until you look  at the range.
The guys had to do a top up two thirds through the test.
I was a little surprised at how little the regeneration system refilled the batteries on those long downhill stretches coming out of the Rockies, so that part looks a bit gimmicky to me.
Given we don't have too many mountains (at least not like the rockies), range may be a little better on the flatter areas, but still not  great.
Would be useful for towing along coastal areas where EV fill up points are available.
Not sure how useful  they would be heading up the Oodnadatta track with a 3 ton kedron behind.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I wouldn't mind one (lots of features), but the front end looks crap. Another problem seems to be the range towing heavy weight. I wonder how they would go towing a caravan?



They Tow great, even if you get a little bit less range you do get the added benefit of being able to recharge at the caravan park while you sleep, so you might end up making less refueling stops than you would with a petrol truck.

let’s say on your average trip towing a van with a petrol vehicle you stop for fuel twice (once before you leave and one near your destination), with an electric vehicle you will have less stops, because you don’t need to fuel at the start of trip because you just charged at home, and you don’t need to refuel at the end because you will charge at your caravan site, but you will probably charge once during the trip, and that will be during a pee break anyway.


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> From the Video I posted where they towed a tandem trailer with an F150 on it over the rockies, they said it tows really well, indeed its torque allowed it to out accelerate the  accompanying RAM truck even with the trailer attached to the Rivan.
> Rivian also reccommended using load levellers, and with its hydraulic suspension lifting capabilities, it is relatively easy to get the chassis line of both the towed entity and the towing entity nicely in line.
> So it looks like more than capable as a towing medium.
> Until you look  at the range.
> ...



As an owner of an EV that uses regen braking everyday, I was surprised by the small amount the guys in the video regenerated to, I think their trailer brake settings were messing with them, obviously when the trailer brake is coming on it isn’t using regen.

that said, when towing loads down hill regen braking would be taking a lot of strain off your regular brakes, which is good for safety.

mid was also very cold weather, if the guy had the heater cranking, the electricity recaptured would first be used to run the heater in the car before it charges the battery, Tesla has a bit of an edge there, because they are starting to use heat pumps rather than resistance heaters.


----------



## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> They Tow great, even if you get a little bit less range you do get the added benefit of being able to recharge at the caravan park while you sleep, so you might end up making less refueling stops than you would with a petrol truck.
> 
> let’s say on your average trip towing a van with a petrol vehicle you stop for fuel twice (once before you leave and one near your destination), with an electric vehicle you will have less stops, because you don’t need to fuel at the start of trip because you just charged at home, and you don’t need to refuel at the end because you will charge at your caravan site, but you will probably charge once during the trip, and that will be during a pee break anyway.



When using my diesel powered Ranger to tow a 2.5 tonne van, which has an 80 lite tank, I reckon on about 17l per 100 k's  travelling at around 95 km/hr , which gives me just on 400 km range for a full tank.
if I had a  Rivian,  If the battery use was 30% better in OZ given its warmer and not so many hills,  the range on towing would still be less than 400kms roughly around 320kms,  but for comparison sake, we say both vehicles can make the 400 km's
Charging at the Caravan park is probably not going to work. You get a 15 amp supply to the Van for fridge light maybe aircon, Tv etc.
Lets be generous and say there is ten amps left to charge the vehicle, which means you can charge at 2.4 kw per hour.
Given the Rivian capacity is 136 Kw/hours, that would take a tad over 2 days to recharge.
if the caravan parks have too many vehicles, they are going to struggle to supply 15 amps to lots of sites, and would start charging a lot more for the caravan sites.
The reral problems come when you do not have access to either a caravan park or a powered site.
We have an off road van, completely self sufficient, but even on good days with plenty of sun and putting out  an extra 250 watt solar panel,
we will at best be fully charged by mid to late  morning, which does not leave much for recharging the Rivian  and still running the power in the van.
You are going to have to stay in one place for days at a time 
So yes its doable, but not exactly practical.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> When using my diesel powered Ranger to tow a 2.5 tonne van, which has an 80 lite tank, I reckon on about 17l per 100 k's  travelling at around 95 km/hr , which gives me just on 400 km range for a full tank.
> if I had a  Rivian,  If the battery use was 30% better in OZ given its warmer and not so many hills,  the range on towing would still be less than 400kms roughly around 320kms,  but for comparison sake, we say both vehicles can make the 400 km's
> Charging at the Caravan park is probably not going to work. You get a 15 amp supply to the Van for fridge light maybe aircon, Tv etc.
> Lets be generous and say there is ten amps left to charge the vehicle, which means you can charge at 2.4 kw per hour.
> ...



As I was pointing out though, before you leave on your trip you have to visit a fuel station where as the EV would have been fully charged in the morning, so your Diesel powered ranger is already one fuel stop behind the EV from the start, So even if you have to stop an put a bit of charge in the EV during your pee break 3 hours into your trip thats your first time you are actually stopping to charge, so both the ranger and the Ev are equal at that point.

Charging at the Caravan park is completely doable, Tesla's mobile charger only draws 8amps (and can be adjusted to 5amps if needed) and given that we have factored in that 1 charging stop during the pee break earlier in the day you won't arrive empty you probably have 50% charge left, so its not going to take 2 days, even though you might be at the park for a few days anyway.

Then when its time to leave, the ranger needs to be fuel straight away again because it arrived empty after the 400km trip, where as the EV is full (or close to full) and can hit the road straight away, when it stops 300km down the road for its first charge of the day, again its only just catching up with the ranger which has already stoped earlier, they ranger might be stopping some where so the passengers can pee, so technically the EV has still made less stops.

The Ranger then arrives home empty, and needs another trip to the fuel station, but the EV just plugs in at home.



> You are going to have to stay in one place for days at a time




No, because just like you have to do with your ranger, you can still charge at public chargers too, and won't be arriving at the caravan park empty, so you top up while you are at the park, and charge on the road when needed, which as I pointed out will be less than the ranger, due to home and destination charging, and charging while doing other things like pee breaks.

I have done multiple road trips in my EV, and I can tell you that you don't need more stops than I would have made in my old commodore, you basically do about the same number of stops, or less.


----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

> my diesel powered Ranger to tow a 2.5 tonne van, which has an 80 lite tank




Ouch.... thats going to cost you about $130 to fill isn't it?

The Rivian is going to only cost you $25 to charge, and free if you charge at the caravan park, some people wouldn't see making a 15 min stop to save $100 as much of an inconvenience, especially if as I said its during a normal pee break, and you didn't have to stop to fuel at the start or end of the trip like a regular diesel or petrol.


----------



## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Ouch.... thats going to cost you about $130 to fill isn't it?



Quite correct, but also immaterial. 
But if we are going to talk costs, then  my ranger  cost me 55k to set up as a tow vehicle.
The equivalent EV with similar towing capacity  will probably set me back  130k plus.
So I have to travel a lot of "free " miles before I get that 75k difference back


Value Collector said:


> The Rivian is going to only cost you $25 to charge, and free if you charge at the caravan park, some people wouldn't see making a 15 min stop to save $100 as much of an inconvenience, especially if as I said its during a normal pee break, and you didn't have to stop to fuel at the start or end of the trip like a regular diesel or petrol.



VC you missed the point entirely.
For many of us caravaners, having a completely self sufficient van means we go to places where there is no water, no power, no sewerage.
You can't just pop down to the nearest maxi charge centre and fill up.
I carry extra jerry can of fuel because there is a lot of nothing between places of interest in outback OZ.
Charging an EV in the these places is just not possible, much less practical - yet.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> When using my diesel powered Ranger to tow a 2.5 tonne van, which has an 80 lite tank, I reckon on about 17l per 100 k's  travelling at around 95 km/hr , which gives me just on 400 km range for a full tank.
> if I had a  Rivian,  If the battery use was 30% better in OZ given its warmer and not so many hills,  the range on towing would still be less than 400kms roughly around 320kms,  but for comparison sake, we say both vehicles can make the 400 km's
> Charging at the Caravan park is probably not going to work. You get a 15 amp supply to the Van for fridge light maybe aircon, Tv etc.
> Lets be generous and say there is ten amps left to charge the vehicle, which means you can charge at 2.4 kw per hour.
> ...




3.6kWh with 15A. Not many EV drivers would charge from empty.









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----------



## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> 3.6kWh with 15A. Not many EV drivers would charge from empty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps you did not read what I wrote.
I was talking about charging in a caravan park, where you get to connect one 15 amp lead for your van, from which you need to run  all the electric items in the van, and what is left charges up the vans batteries.
Then , when the batteries are charged, it will have some  power left over to charge an EV, but it will still be running  the elctric items in the van, so at no stage will you have the full 15 amps to charge an EV.
But even if you could get a second  plug point at 15 AMPS,  at 3.6KWr  from 50% charge it is going to take at least 19 hours to get that 50%.
And of course, if you can only allow the EV charge to go down to 50%, you only have 50% of your original range.
Its a catch 22.
 To reduce the charging time, you have to reduce the  range.
Plus it means you need the vehicle to stay connected for that time, which means no exploring unless on foot.
As I said, its doable, just not yet practical.
Mick


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## JohnDe (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Perhaps you did not read what I wrote.
> I was talking about charging in a caravan park, where you get to connect one 15 amp lead for your van, from which you need to run  all the electric items in the van, and what is left charges up the vans batteries.
> Then , when the batteries are charged, it will have some  power left over to charge an EV, but it will still be running  the elctric items in the van, so at no stage will you have the full 15 amps to charge an EV.
> But even if you could get a second  plug point at 15 AMPS,  at 3.6KWr  from 50% charge it is going to take at least 19 hours to get that 50%.
> ...



I did, and I have had your scenario multiple times with a 10A extension cord and the time to charge has not changed by much.

By the way, what power usage does a caravan have? A fridge/freezer, TV, lighting... surely they are not running non-stop 24 hours a day.


----------



## JohnDe (16 February 2022)

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As electric vehicles (EVs) continue to make inroads in the Australian market, one of the biggest barriers to the concept really taking off is the...




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## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> VC you missed the point entirely.
> For many of us caravaners, having a completely self sufficient van means we go to places where there is no water, no power, no sewerage.
> You can't just pop down to the nearest maxi charge centre and fill up.
> I carry extra jerry can of fuel because there is a lot of nothing between places of interest in outback OZ.
> ...



Even with a jerry can, the distance you can travel away from petrol stations is limited, and charging stations can be put pretty much anywhere their is petrol stations because petrol stations require electricity anyway, you could always use your jerry can to run a generator to charge your EV, in those situations turning your Ev into a hybrid for those couple of times a year you need a bit of extra range, but I think the majority of people wouldn't need to resort to that, especially as more and more chargers are being installed every where.


----------



## Humid (16 February 2022)

My Landcruiser has a 145 litre tank.....i'll see you all when you get here


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## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> But even if you could get a second  plug point at 15 AMPS,  at 3.6KWr  from 50% charge it is going to take at least 19 hours to get that 50%.
> And of course, if you can only allow the EV charge to go down to 50%, you only have 50% of your original range.




I think you are missing your point here, picking up 50% charge is still alot better than your ranger, which sits at the caravan park not having its diesel tank recharged, the Ev doesn't require more stops, just the timing of the stops changes a bit, and most charging is picked up when you are doing other things like sleeping, eating or peeing.

Think back to your original argument.

You pointed out that the EV had to stop and charge during the trip, which would be "inconvenient", but what you are failing to see is that your ranger would need more stops.

Ranger Stops for 400km trip.

1, Refuel before or at beginning of trip (to get to 100%)
2, Refuel towards end or after trip.
3, maybe another stop for drinks or bathroom.

EV stops for 400km trip.

(starts full)
1, Recharge once some where along route during a drinks or bathroom break.
(arrives destination with 50%, charges at destination)

Same thing on return trip, say the Ev leaves with 80% having picked up 30% over night, it charges once on way back, then charges at home.


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## JohnDe (16 February 2022)

Humid said:


> My Landcruiser has a 145 litre tank.....i'll see you all when you get here




Ouch. What's that costing you these days?


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## Humid (16 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Ouch. What's that costing you these days?



We don't talk about that


----------



## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I did, and I have had your scenario multiple times with a 10A extension cord and the time to charge has not changed by much.
> 
> By the way, what power usage does a caravan have? A fridge/freezer, TV, lighting... surely they are not running 24 hours a day.



Caravan power usage depends on many things.
Do they run a compressor fridge versus a 3 way evapourator fridge, and what size is it, do they run  a 240 Volt inverter for coffee machines or toasters or kettle. Do they have a small electric heater to keep warm, do they have electric hot water heaters, how often do they run their water pump, do they have an onboard microwave or washing machine.
I have a number of meters set up in my van to determine what current is coming in from solar chargers, what is going out as load for all the 12 volt systems, plus what is going in to the batteries as charge.
Although I don't constantly monitor them, none of these are static.  
But I have yet to see any occasion when all available current from the solar controller is going into battery charging.
The controller is rated for a maximum of 30 amps, but even on the sunniest days in FNQ with low batteries have I ever seen anywhere near  that figure, probably around 17 to 18 amps max.
The small fridge varies from 3 amps up to nine amps depending on outside temperature, whats in the fridge, how often its opened etc etc.
Unless you hav e  a massivley large battery system, say  around the 3,000 amp hour mark, there is now way can you run the  Air conditioner from battery.
And even then the batteries don't last long.
There is a world of difference between swanning around  well populated coastal areas and inland Australia
Mick


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## JohnDe (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Caravan power usage depends on many things.
> Do they run a compressor fridge versus a 3 way evapourator fridge, and what size is it, do they run  a 240 Volt inverter for coffee machines or toasters or kettle. Do they have a small electric heater to keep warm, do they have electric hot water heaters, how often do they run their water pump, do they have an onboard microwave or washing machine.
> 
> Although I don't constantly monitor them, *none of these are static.*
> ...




Are you saying that each electrical component in your caravan is running constantly for all 24 hours of the day, nothing cycles, lights don't get turned off for bed?


----------



## JohnDe (16 February 2022)

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----------



## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Are you saying that each electrical component in your caravan is running constantly for all 24 hours of the day, nothing cycles, lights don't get turned off for bed?



With most of the new pick up truck models coming with power points in the back, I can see a situation where caravans are plugged directly into the back of the vehicle, and the vehicle is plugged into what ever power source you have (eg power point/generator) then the vehicles just takes 100% of available power minus what ever usage happens as equipment switches on and off.

This way it could be drawing a steady load from the power source, and battery charging just slows or speeds up as equipment comes on or off, even if you had to resort to using a generator and Jerry cans, at least the generator can be producing at its most efficient rate, off course you could also utilise solar power etc too.


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## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Are you saying that each electrical component in your caravan is running constantly for all 24 hours of the day, nothing cycles, lights don't get turned off for bed?



No I did not say that, what I said is that there is almost always some load on the system, just as the  solar panels are not charging at full capacity all the time (indeed for half the 24 hour period they do not charge at all).
Lights are LED theses days, so take almost no power.
The various chargers for phones Ipads consume power, many of my contemporaries sleep with sleep apnea monitors, the list goes on.
However, the fridge cycles, the fans on the diesel heater and igniter cycle, the  pump cycles to maintain a fixed line pressure, as well as the myriad of things that are on all the time.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I think you are missing your point here, picking up 50% charge is still alot better than your ranger, which sits at the caravan park not having its diesel tank recharged, the Ev doesn't require more stops, just the timing of the stops changes a bit, and most charging is picked up when you are doing other things like sleeping, eating or peeing.
> 
> Think back to your original argument.
> 
> ...



why do I only need stops for drinks or bathroom with the Ranger?
Do EV's let you pee in the console?


Value Collector said:


> EV stops for 400km trip.
> 
> (starts full)
> 1, Recharge once some where along route during a drinks or bathroom break.
> ...



The Ranger with a full tank normally gets around 10l per 100K, giving a nominal range of 800km.
Towing the van with 17 l per 100k, gives a nominal range of 470km, but no one  drives a diesel to empty, so we establish 400 kms as a maximum between fillups.
We have already established that the Rivian EV towing the same van will not get 400 KMS ands still have 50% charge.
Either you use all 100% charge to get 400k's, or you only travel 200ks to have 50% battery left, and even that is being generous.
And as I tried to point out, nine times out of ten we will be stopped overnight where there is no 10 or 15 amp plus for 300 kms.
As to carting a 3.5 kva generator around to charge up batteries when I could just as easily pour it into my cars fuel tank and just keep travelling, i am afraid it makes no sense.
When you have towed a caravan with either an ICE powered vehicle oran EV, then we can talk about some real world experience.
Mick


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## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> why do I only need stops for drinks or bathroom with the Ranger?
> Do EV's let you pee in the console?




We already accounted for 1 stop with the EV, you go take a pee while its charges for 15 minutes, Where as you were saying that the Ranger was going to attempt to drive the 400km's without the inconvenience of stopping to refuel, but I am assuming that the passengers will want to stop at least once during that 4 hour drive to pee, so you will need to stop regardless of the range of your car.

What I am pointing out here is that although your truck might be able to do 4 hours driving without refuelling some of your passengers probably won't want too, and will want a pee break, when I drive interstate with my Tesla, you just align the charging and the pee breaks as one stop, there are no inconvenient charging stops, you plug in go pee, grab a drink head back to car and drive away




> The Ranger with a full tank normally gets around 10l per 100K, giving a nominal range of 800km.
> Towing the van with 17 l per 100k, gives a nominal range of 470km, but no one  drives a diesel to empty, so we establish 400 kms as a maximum between fillups.
> We have already established that the Rivian EV towing the same van will not get 400 KMS ands still have 50% charge.



Hence why we accounted for a recharge at some point through there trip, which should leave you with 40% or 50% at destination.




> Either you use all 100% charge to get 400k's, or you only travel 200ks to have 50% battery left, and even that is being generous.




As pointed out we are accounting for a recharge already, so if you begin with 400km of range and add another 200km some where along the way that gives you a total of 600km, 600km minus the 400km driven leaves you with 200km in the battery eg 50% range.



> And as I tried to point out, nine times out of ten we will be stopped overnight where there is no 10 or 15 amp plus for 300 kms.





Yeah, but that is not how most people caravan, and if you are 300km away from a petrol station thats a 600km round trip, your 400km of range is going not going to get you back to the petrol station either, so you will need about 3 jerry cans of diesel to be safe, again I am not sure most people are caravanning like that, but as pointed out if you like to extreme van you could use a generator, or just stick to diesel, no one is forcing you to go EV.


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## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah, but that is not how most people caravan



Do have anything to back up that statement?
I do have at least 25k miles towing  various vans, and I can tell you there are huge numbers of people travelling off grid who only go into caravan parks to top up their water tanks or do their washing.
And if they cpold get water from a town tap, they won't even go into a caravan park.


Value Collector said:


> and if you are 300km away from a petrol station thats a 600km round trip, your 400km of range is going not going to get you back to the petrol station either, so you will need about 3 jerry cans of diesel to be safe, again I am not sure most people are caravanning like that, but as pointed out if you like to extreme van you could use a generator, or just stick to diesel, no one is forcing you to go EV.



You seem to think that all caravan trips are out to a point and back.
Its not how it works. 
Most caravaners are doing  longer trips , not going out for a night and returning home. 
You drive from point to point limited by range, people don't drive back to where their last fuel stop was.
If you are 300km away from a petrol station, its because the petrol station is likley ahead of you, not behind.
sorry mate, I doubt you have ever towed a box trailer to the trip, much less an off road van.
Mick


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## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Do have anything to back up that statement?
> I do have at least 25k miles towing  various vans, and I can tell you there are huge numbers of people travelling off grid who only go into caravan parks to top up their water tanks or do their washing.
> And if they cpold get water from a town tap, they won't even go into a caravan park.




Just that caravan parks will tend to pop up along the most popular routes and destinations, I have no doubt that lots of people do what you describe but I don't think most people (over 50%) are regularly doing it.




> You seem to think that all caravan trips are out to a point and back.



No, I said "most" not "all", and it doesn't have to be to a point and back, you can travel from park to park, and as I said along the most popular routes their will be chargers any way, just as the most popular routes have petrol stations.






> Most caravaners are doing  longer trips ,



No issue with long trips with Ev's, as pointed out you just stop to charge when needed, and maybe supplement with destination charging where available, 




> You drive from point to point limited by range, people don't drive back to where their last fuel stop was.
> If you are 300km away from a petrol station,





> its because the petrol station is likley ahead of you, not behind



.Same with an EV, but you said your nearest electricity was 300km from your camp site, so I assumed your nearest petrol station was equally as far, considering petrol stations require electricity too, so was pointing out your 400km range probably won't get you there either. 





> sorry mate, I doubt you have ever towed a box trailer to the trip, much less an off road van.
> Mick




Actually I did quite a lot of towing during my time in the army. 

Although I have never towed a caravan, I have Towed a 105 Artillery Gun off road and other weird and wonderful things


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## mullokintyre (16 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Just that caravan parks will tend to pop up along the most popular routes and destinations, I have no doubt that lots of people do what you describe but I don't think most people (over 50%) are regularly doing it.



Look I don't wish to be rude, but you obviously have no experience in caravaning, so your statements about what the majority of caravaners may or may not do is way off the mark.
I would say there are more pubs in outback Australia that allow you to camp  overnight than there are caravan parks.
Have a look at aps like Wkiki camps, Hema Maps,  Australia Free camps  or maps with me.
There are far more "free" camping spots in Australia than caravan parks.


Value Collector said:


> No, I said "most" not "all", and it doesn't have to be to a point and back, you can travel from park to park, and as I said along the most popular routes their will be chargers any way, just as the most popular routes have petrol stations.



I had a look at Plugshare , one of the aps that show where you can charge your EV.
There are huge gaps throughout most of WA, western Queensland and western NSW. 
You could probably travel from Port Douglas all the way along the coast to perth with enough charging stations to make it.
But then I would stay in motels if I was doing that trip, not tow a hefty van behind me.
But you would not get from Birdsville to Mount Isa, an 800 km trip with no chargers in between.
But there are probably ten diesel outlets along that route.


Value Collector said:


> No issue with long trips with Ev's, as pointed out you just stop to charge when needed, and maybe supplement with destination charging where available,
> 
> .Same with an EV, but you said your nearest electricity was 300km from your camp site, so I assumed your nearest petrol station was equally as far, considering petrol stations require electricity too, so was pointing out your 400km range probably won't get you there either.



There is not a lot of places that have more than 300 kms between diesel stops, but  that does not mean you can charge an EV.
There are numerous card only non manned fuel depots we have used that have no other facilites.



Value Collector said:


> Actually I did quite a lot of towing during my time in the army.
> 
> Although I have never towed a caravan, I have Towed a 105 Artillery Gun off road and other weird and wonderful things



Yeah, I guess towing a 105 pound artillery gun is a good introduction to towing and living in a caravan.
Mick


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## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Look I don't wish to be rude, but you obviously have no experience in caravaning, so your statements about what the majority of caravaners may or may not do is way off the mark.
> I would say there are more pubs in outback Australia that allow you to camp  overnight than there are caravan parks.
> Have a look at aps like Wkiki camps, Hema Maps,  Australia Free camps  or maps with me.
> There are far more "free" camping spots in Australia than caravan parks.
> ...




If there are as you say not many places where you would have to drive more than 300kms between diesel stops, then obviously over time as EV’s grow in popularity those diesel stops can install chargers, because they would already have electricity anyway.

that is the main point I am making, and as with diesel they can be in manned, Tesla chargers don’t even require a card.

infact remote charging locations could be solar and battery powered, and not even require regular visits from fuel trucks bringing fuel from Saudi Arabia to central Australia.

I am well aware of plug share, I use it all the time.


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## Smurf1976 (16 February 2022)

moXJO said:


> I thought this was already the case?
> 
> I wouldn't be sticking them inside or attached.



The normal method of installation is on an external wall.

Pretty much no modern suburban house has the physical space for a battery shed and even with an older one on a larger block it's not done in practice.

Personally well I own a battery and it's mounted on the house wall. Call it a privately funded research project.... Long term though batteries are things that go in EV's and at substations, wind farms, power stations etc they're not something most people need attached to their house.

For small devices though, things like power tools or IT equipment, well I'd _very_ strongly recommend to anyone that they're not left on charge in the house unsupervised. But then I wouldn't recommend leaving your washing machine turned on at the power point when not in use either.


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## sptrawler (16 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As to carting a 3.5 kva generator around to charge up batteries when I could just as easily pour it into my cars fuel tank and just keep travelling, i am afraid it makes no sense.
> 
> Mick



Mick I don't know how big the battery is in the Rivian, but it will take a long time to charge on 3Kw generator, think approx the same as a 10amp home socket.
Then think of everyone in the middle off nowhere, telling the vanker with the Kedron, to turn their fffing generator off. 🤣


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## Value Collector (16 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Mick I don't know how big the battery is in the Rivian, but it will take a long time to charge on 3Kw generator, think approx the same as a 10amp home socket.
> Then think of everyone in the middle off nowhere, telling the vanker with the Kedron, to turn their fffing generator off. 🤣



I am not talking about charging 0% to 100% routinely, just topping up those extra 10% or so when mick wantto do his extreme camping trip.

you would only need enough extra charge to get to your next charger, which Mick also said with diesel is rarely ever more than 300km, and there fore eventually will be the same with ev charging as it grows in popularity.

but as I pointed out, remote charging locations for Evs that are powered using solar and batteries, can actually make a lot more sense practically and economically than transporting diesel across the world and out to remote locations, even if you had to have a back up diesel generator in case it’s cloudy for a week, you could still reduce the need for fuel trucks by over 90% I reckon.


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## sptrawler (16 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am not talking about charging 0% to 100% routinely, just topping up those extra 10% or so when mick wantto do his extreme camping trip.
> 
> you would only need enough extra charge to get to your next charger, which Mick also said with diesel is rarely ever more than 300km, and there fore eventually will be the same with ev charging as it grows in popularity.
> 
> but as I pointed out, remote charging locations for Evs that are powered using solar and batteries, can actually make a lot more sense practically and economically than transporting diesel across the world and out to remote locations, even if you had to have a back up diesel generator in case it’s cloudy for a week, you could still reduce the need for fuel trucks by over 90% I reckon.



I agree with both of you, I have crossed Australia by most routes, so I can understand Mick's point of view. 
But I also love new technology and having an electrical background, so I can appreciate the benefits of an electrical drive train.
It wont happen overnight, but in 20 years time everyone will be reminicing about the twin turbo 200 series with a 3 " straight through exhaust, but times move on things always improve.
As will EV's and  charging infrastructure.
It is a bit like my best mate who is a car nut, he has just ordered a Hyundai i20n for his retirement, he said it would tear the HQ350 monaro he bought in the early 70's a new ar$e, times change.


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## Smurf1976 (16 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> you could still reduce the need for fuel trucks by over 90% I reckon



Indeed - it doesn't have to be perfect, just needs to be better than what we've got at present.

A lot of remote area power systems have whacked some solar panels or wind turbines in for the same reason. They're still diesel based systems but they're now using less of it.

Even one of the oil companies is using solar at their production sites for that reason. Their aim is to sell the product, not burn it on site as soon as it comes out of the ground, so it makes perfect sense.


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## JohnDe (16 February 2022)

Petrol stations of the future: EV charging plus click and collect​





						Petrol Stations of the Future: EV Charging plus Click and Collect
					

The humble petrol station is set to be transformed as the number of electric cars on Australian roads climbs to an estimated 1.7 million by 2030.



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----------



## rederob (17 February 2022)

NEV sales in world's largest market are continuing their massive YoY increases:


Jan/Feb are typically low production months, especially Feb when during Chinese New Year tens of millions of workers return to their families to celebrate for a week.
Most production was for the local market, excepting Tesla's 40K exports.
Australia will soon see new NEV offerings from BYD and GWM and some of these are expected to be cheaper than MG's ZS EV.
Unfortunately Wuling cannot meet local demand for this cutie, so for now it's only available in China (from about AU$8K):


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

How do you reckon these things are going to handle getting t boned by one of the 5 million hi luxe's on the road


----------



## rederob (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> How do you reckon these things are going to handle getting t boned by one of the 5 million hi luxe's on the road



They are principally city cars and not much different to Minis, Fiat 500s, Kia Picantos and Suzuki Swifts in size, and millions of these have been on the roads for ages.
Small cars sell exceptionally well in Europe, so while Wulings won't be there, the *Ora Good Cat* arrived late last year and is also coming to Australia soon:


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> How do you reckon these things are going to handle getting t boned by one of the 5 million hi luxe's on the road



They will handle it better than motorcycle but worse than a motor coach


----------



## Humid (17 February 2022)

More of an observation on car height and the current trend of SUVs in the hands of shopping centre kamikaze


----------



## Value Collector (17 February 2022)

Humid said:


> More of an observation on car height and the current trend of SUVs in the hands of shopping centre kamikaze



Apparently Toyota has it covered,


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

Insurance companies hated 4wds years back because of the damage they do higher up the pillars renders a car worthless but in hindsight just about every new car is written off even with what seems like minimal damage these days


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

rederob said:


> They are principally city cars and not much different to Minis, Fiat 500s, Kia Picantos and Suzuki Swifts in size, and millions of these have been on the roads for ages.
> Small cars sell exceptionally well in Europe, so while Wulings won't be there, the *Ora Good Cat* arrived late last year and is also coming to Australia soon:
> View attachment 137681





rederob said:


> They are principally city cars and not much different to Minis, Fiat 500s, Kia Picantos and Suzuki Swifts in size, and millions of these have been on the roads for ages.
> Small cars sell exceptionally well in Europe, so while Wulings won't be there, the *Ora Good Cat* arrived late last year and is also coming to Australia soon:
> View attachment 137681



This is a city car in Perth


----------



## mullokintyre (18 February 2022)

It would appear that both Ford and Mazda are trying to kill of the ICE engines in their tradie utes.
Fresh out from ford releasing their most underpowered ute yet when the  put out a 3 cylinder V6 in the latest ranger,
 Mazda have gone one better and released a 1.9litre single turbo diesel variant.
makes the EV versions of utes and trucks look even more attractive.
mick


----------



## mullokintyre (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> This is a city car in Perth
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fake.
 Its got no rego plate, the wheels are covered in mud but the underbody is pristine.
Sure its not a promo photo op?
Mick


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> It would appear that both Ford and Mazda are trying to kill of the ICE engines in their tradie utes.
> Fresh out from ford releasing their most underpowered ute yet when the  put out a 3.o cylinder V^ in the latest ranger,
> Mazda have gone one better and released a 1.9litre single turbo diesel variant.
> makes the EV versions of utes and trucks look even more attractive.
> mick



This mobs in Qld








						Video: Coyote-powered Ranger Raptor
					

The V8 ute Aussies wanted but Ford wouldn’t build




					www.whichcar.com.au


----------



## rederob (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> This is a city car in Perth
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is there a Perth in Thailand too?
Speaking of Thailand, that country was responsible for the right hand drive Ora Good Cats that will be soon coming to Australia.


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

rederob said:


> Is there a Perth in Thailand too?
> Speaking of Thailand, that country was responsible for the right hand drive Ora Good Cats that will be soon coming to Australia.



Bangkok could do with some clean air but not sure how their grid would hold up with a flood of EVs


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> This is a city car in Perth
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is very true humid, the wife was going to see the MIL in Rockingham and a Hilux like that full of bogans, was on two wheels going round a traffic roundabout with them all hanging out the windows.
It's still the wild wild West.


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is very true humid, the wife was going to see the MIL in Rockingham and a Hilux like that full of bogans, was on two wheels going round a traffic roundabout with them all hanging out the windows.
> It's still the wild wild West.



Yeah since covid and the lack of Bali holidays the bogans have opted for the camping/fishing expeditions and their not going out there half assed


----------



## JohnDe (18 February 2022)

Spotted yesterday


----------



## mullokintyre (18 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Spotted yesterday
> 
> View attachment 137710
> 
> ...



I presume the battery pack is where the tray would have been.
Not sure how that would have got past  EV Code of Practice , especially clause 2.3.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (18 February 2022)




----------



## JohnDe (18 February 2022)




----------



## mullokintyre (18 February 2022)

Finally, an EV that may be accessible to citizens  other than the wealthy in society.
From Todays OZ


> BYD — the biggest car company in the world that you’ve probably never heard of — is about to make a big splash in Australia, and not just with its range of cheap, Chinese-built EVs.





> *It is likely to be the first sub $30,000 electric vehicle for sale in Australia. *
> 
> BYD, which announced this week that it has sunk tens of millions of dollars into a* right-hand drive production line *at one of its Chinese ‘mega factories’, and that it will soon start building 15,000 electric SUVs (called the BYD Atto 3) for the Australian market — is one company that will be selling, and servicing, cars in an entirely new way.



At 30k,  it is a very affordable entry model into the EV world, and will be a very attractive buy to those  looking at that price point.
Rather than set up its own service network, which takes time and money, BYD has entered into a partnership with the former Kmart Tyre and Auto group, now rebranded as Mycar.
The  Chinese long march into OZ Ev's has begun.
Mick


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

Newcomers to the ice vehicle market seem to suffer build quality issues
Do you think this will change.....
Worked with a bloke that had one of the first Great Walls his stories were hilarious


----------



## mullokintyre (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Newcomers to the ice vehicle market seem to suffer build quality issues
> Do you think this will change.....
> Worked with a bloke that had one of the fiHaarst Great Walls his stories were hilarious



have no idea, never bought a Chinese or Indian car, and  don't think I know of anyone who has.
But if the price is right,  who knows?
If you had a choice between say a Toyota Corolla  with an ICE engine versus a Chinese BYD thats all electric at about the same price, I  would go the all electric. Can't speak for everyone else.

Mick


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Bangkok could do with some clean air but not sure how their grid would hold up with a flood of EVs



There won’t be a flood, there will be a gradual change, and it will be met with gradual investment in the grid.

Grid owners live making investments, provided that extra investment is met with extra demand/revenue.

More than that, grid owners love increased utilisation rates of their existing Infrastructure, which EV’s provide by timing the bulk of charging to match off peak times.


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> have no idea, never bought a Chinese or Indian car, and  don't think I know of anyone who has.
> But if the price is right,  who knows?
> If you had a choice between say a Toyota Corolla  with an ICE engine versus a Chinese BYD thats all electric at about the same price, I  would go the all electric. Can't speak for everyone else.
> 
> Mick



A friend just got a new Haval ? which i think is the old Great wall and it looks the goods,nice car
Pretty much all she could buy without waiting 6 months


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> There won’t be a flood, there will be a gradual change, and it will be met with gradual investment in the grid.
> 
> Grid owners live making investments, provided that extra investment is met with extra demand/revenue.
> 
> More than that, grid owners love increased utilisation rates of their existing Infrastructure, which EV’s provide by timing the bulk of charging to match off peak times.



Thailand don't follow no rules......


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is very true humid, the wife was going to see the MIL in Rockingham and a Hilux like that full of bogans, was on two wheels going round a traffic roundabout with them all hanging out the windows.
> It's still the wild wild West.



Hahaha, Back in my Army days Cottesloe beach (near Perth) was a favourite Sunday drinking spot for us, I remember one time (I think it was the Cottesloe beach hotel) a cowboy looking guy parked a Ute out the front of the pub with 3 sheep in the back and walked in for a drink, I thought man this place is different hahaha.


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Thailand don't follow no rules......



They love money just as much as any groups of humans though.


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Hahaha, Back in my Army days Cottesloe beach (just south of Perth) was a favourite Sunday drinking spot for us, I remember one time (I think it was the Cottesloe beach hotel) a cowboy looking guy parked a Ute out the front of the pub with 3 sheep in the back and walked in for a drink, I thought man this place is different hahaha.



Was a great pub....still ok but .....
The OBH up the road a bit is still a bit country Sunday's


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> They love money just as much as any groups of humans though.



Probably more


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Was a great pub....still ok but .....
> The OBH up the road a bit is still a bit country Sunday's





Humid said:


> Was a great pub....still ok but .....
> The OBH up the road a bit is still a bit country Sunday's



Hahaha, Yes actually that was it, it was the OBH I saw the guy, he parked his Ute full of sheep right here some where, hahaha lots of good times at the OBH and the Cott, first time I ever saw the sun set into the ocean was at the OBH, (I am from the east coast)


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Hahaha, Yes actually that was it, it was the OBH I saw the guy, he parked his Ute full of sheep right here some where, hahaha lots of good times at the OBH and the Cott.



Yeah they hang out the windows and gets a bit rowdy


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Yeah they hang out the windows and gets a bit rowdy



Probably the closest pub to the SAS barracks


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Probably the closest pub to the SAS barracks



Yep, cheap cab fare, or you can walk.


----------



## Humid (18 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, cheap cab fare.



Your still a tight arse lol


----------



## rederob (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Newcomers to the ice vehicle market seem to suffer build quality issues
> Do you think this will change.....
> Worked with a bloke that had one of the first Great Walls his stories were hilarious



China's Tesla factory produces better quality autos than their US counterparts, so the poor builds of the past are long gone.
It's also the case that 6 Chinese NEV carmakers have ordered Tesla-style gigapresses and these massively reduce production time.  In fact the newest Chinese iteration is mooted to produce full car bodies in one pressing, reducing production time up to 25%.  These won't be operational this year, but at least gives us an indication that NEVs will dramatically reduce in price in coming years as batteries also get cheaper and more efficient.


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Humid said:


> A friend just got a new Haval ? which i think is the old Great wall and it looks the goods,nice car
> Pretty much all she could buy without waiting 6 months



I've been noticing a lot of the Haval H6's around Mandurah, looks a lot of car for the money. 
Also cars don't hold the snob value they once did, the younger generation just see them a s a means of transport, I guess it is because now relative to wages they are just another consumer item.
Also years ago guys used to spend a lot of time working on them, so you become somewhat invested in them, but I'm noticing even myself that I'm not as fired up about them they're just another product now. The motorcycle industry is also finding it a huge problem, the younger guys now are just not into big motorbikes like past generations, just changing times.

I think electric vehicles will accelerate the trend, due to the fact that people wont have to do much maintenance and then when it starts looking old a tatty it will be flipped like the old model phone.
Then the car will become like the phone, some hang onto the old one when it dies replace the battery from ebay, others spend a fortune buying the latest. Then you have the majority who just hang onto it until its performance annoys them, then they go and buy an new one at a price/performance point they are happy with.
I think EV's will go the same way, most will buy the price/ performance point, rather than the prestige point. 

https://www.drive.com.au/news/volks...m.au&utm_content=article_4&utm_medium=partner


----------



## JohnDe (18 February 2022)




----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I've been noticing a lot of the Haval H6's around Mandurah, looks a lot of car for the money.
> Also cars don't hold the snob value they once did, the younger generation just see them a s a means of transport, I guess it is because now relative to wages they are just another consumer item.
> Also years ago guys used to spend a lot of time working on them, so you become somewhat invested in them, but I'm noticing even myself that I'm not as fired up about them they're just another product now. The motorcycle industry is also finding it a huge problem, the younger guys now are just not into big motorbikes like past generations, just changing times.
> 
> ...



Or it goes even further and transport becomes a subscription service like Spotify or Netflix and when you need transport a driverless vehicle just picks you up and drops you off.

Owning a car might become like owning a DVD or CD, when you can just have a subscription service that’s constantly updated, it might seem old hat to actually by a DVD or a car.


----------



## sptrawler (18 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Or it goes even further and transport becomes a subscription service like Spotify or Netflix and when you need transport a driverless vehicle just picks you up and drops you off.
> 
> Owning a car might become like owning a DVD or CD, when you can just have a subscription service that’s constantly updated, it might seem old hat to actually by a DVD or a car.



In the cities I'm sure that is already happening with public transport, uber and electric scooters.
I'm not sure it will happen in the near term in Country Australia, even quite large towns have limited shopping options.
I remember, we used to go quite often from Exmouth to Carnarvon, for Saturday morning shopping a leisurely 365klm each way . One of the guys I worked with got his pilots license, he and his wife used to fly to Perth, you have to break the isolation ocassionally.


----------



## Value Collector (18 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> In the cities I'm sure that is already happening with public transport, uber and electric scooters.
> I'm not sure it will happen in the near term in Country Australia, even quite large towns have limited shopping options.
> I remember, we used to go quite often from Exmouth to Carnarvon, for Saturday morning shopping a leisurely 365klm each way . One of the guys I worked with got his pilots license, he and his wife used to fly to Perth, you have to break the isolation ocassionally.



Amazon will be helping with the shopping needs.


----------



## basilio (19 February 2022)

*Retro Electric Mini.*

1967 Mini with a 300 HP Tesla motor.
So how does it go ? Check it out.

_This car is the star of Series 2 of the TV show Vintage Voltage and the worlds first Tesla powered classic Mini. A Classic Mini with a 300hp Tesla drive unit from the front of a Tesla Model S converted by my mate Moggy and is team at Electric Classic Cars. Amazingly the EV conversion has only added about 40kg to the standard cars weight, bringing this car in at 700kg. That means staggering performance, incredible handling and torque steer like nothing I've experienced before !

_


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## moXJO (20 February 2022)

I wonder if they could just put batteries in the caravan to extend range.


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## Humid (20 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> In the cities I'm sure that is already happening with public transport, uber and electric scooters.
> I'm not sure it will happen in the near term in Country Australia, even quite large towns have limited shopping options.
> I remember, we used to go quite often from Exmouth to Carnarvon, for Saturday morning shopping a leisurely 365klm each way . One of the guys I worked with got his pilots license, he and his wife used to fly to Perth, you have to break the isolation ocassionally.



Uber surge pricing is putting me off using them.
$53 to the airport in the arvo and $143 Friday night airport to home?


----------



## Macquack (20 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Or it goes even further and transport becomes a subscription service like Spotify or Netflix and when you need transport a driverless vehicle just picks you up and drops you off.
> 
> Owning a car might become like owning a DVD or CD, when you can just have a subscription service that’s constantly updated, it might seem old hat to actually by a DVD or a car.



What am I going to park in my garage then? 

That's right,  my collectable relic internal combustion engined ornament (rotary powered at that).


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Uber surge pricing is putting me off using them.
> $53 to the airport in the arvo and $143 Friday night airport to home?



A single mum at the units was saying the same, i sold her one of our electric scooters cheap, she finds it great for getting around.
Doesnt drive or have a car.


----------



## Humid (20 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A single mum at the units was saying the same, i sold her one of our electric scooters cheap, she finds it great for getting around.
> Doesnt drive or have a car.



The old buttering up the single mum routine you old rooster


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2022)

Humid said:


> The old buttering up the single mum routine you old rooster



No chance of that, I'm way too old to give a house away now. 
I've finally reached an age, where the big head has taken control of the little one, instead of the other way round like you young blokes.


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## Value Collector (20 February 2022)

Macquack said:


> What am I going to park in my garage then?
> 
> That's right,  my collectable relic internal combustion engined ornament (rotary powered at that).



You’ll be renting the garage out to house university students.


----------



## JohnDe (20 February 2022)

Slowly but surely, the EV revolution creates new industry and wealth.



> It was a White House announcement that came complete with stars, stripes and the US President in a sharp black suit: an Australian company was building a factory in Tennessee.
> 
> The beginning of an "American manufacturing comeback", Joe Biden told reporters on February 8, standing beside the Australian CEO in a rare show of support for a private company.
> 
> ...












						How three engineering mates built the most important Australian company you've probably never heard of
					

Founded by three engineering mates in Brisbane, Tritium has quietly secured a large chunk of the global EV-charger market — even doing a deal with US President Joe Biden. Here's how they got there.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (20 February 2022)

E.V sales is starting to affect material prices.








						Global EV sales jumped in 2021, as did deployment of high nickel battery chemistries
					

Adamas Intelligence reports that 54% of battery capacity deployed onto roads globally in new plug-in electric vehicles was powered by high nickel cathode chemistries.




					www.mining.com
				



From the article:
Global EV sales jumped 83% year-on-year in 2021, insights from Adamas Intelligence show.





According to the market analyst, over 98% of all watt-hours deployed last year went into plug-in electric vehicles alone, both battery electric vehicles (BEVs) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV).




Adamas Intelligence’s report also points out that 2021 saw a record 286.2 GWh deployed onto roads in the batteries of new passenger EVs globally, a 113% leap over 2020.

The firm’s dossier mentions that 54% of battery capacity deployed onto roads globally in new plug-in electric vehicles was powered by high nickel cathode chemistries or NCM 6-, 7-, 8-series, NCA, and NCMA; 26% by low nickel cathodes or NCM 5-series and lower, and 20% by no nickel cathodes, primarily LFP.

“Regionally, deployment of high nickel chemistries was most prevalent in the Americas on the back of Tesla, VW, Ford, Hyundai and others, while the deployment of no nickel cells was most prevalent in Asia Pacific, and particularly China, on the back of Tesla, BYD, SGMW, Great Wall and a long list of others,” the document states.

“Like the Americas, Europe saw minuscule deployment of no nickel cells onto roads in 2021 but unlike the Americas, saw a greater proportion of its watt-hours deployed powered by low nickel cells, albeit high nickel still dominated the region.”




The researcher’s data show that in Asia Pacific specifically, no-nickel chemistries seized 34% of the plug-in electric vehicle market by battery capacity deployed onto roads in 2021 albeit no-nickel cells were present in over 41% of all vehicles sold.

“This disparity stems from the smaller sales-weighted average pack capacities of LFP-powered EVs relative to low and high nickel alternatives,” the report reads. “Given the different chemistries preferred in each region, the demand for lithium chemical precursors also varied.”

Adamas found that in the Americas, over 86% of all lithium carbonate equivalent (LCE) units deployed onto roads in 2021 were in the form of lithium hydroxide. In Europe, this proportion amounted to 51% and in Asia Pacific 30%. In the research firm’s view, these results speak to the regional preferences for high, low and nickel chemistries.

At the global level, 45% of all LCE units deployed onto roads globally in 2021 were in the form of lithium carbonate and 55% lithium hydroxide.

Overall, the market analyst estimated that a record 173,641 tonnes of LCE were deployed onto roads globally in newly sold passenger EVs in 2021, up 110% year over year.


----------



## sptrawler (21 February 2022)

Interesting you tube video, on different battery drain, with different accessories. Done in U.K, but very interesting.


----------



## sptrawler (22 February 2022)

Sounds like cheap and cheerful, may be on the way.








						BYD Dolphin electric city car coming to Australia with new name
					

Chinese electric car brand BYD is breaking into the Australian market through local distributor Nexport – and a new city car, badged as the Dolphin overseas, is said to be its second mass-produced offering.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (22 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds like cheap and cheerful, may be on the way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yesterday morning while trapped in the dentists chair, the TV on the ceiling had one of the commercial breakfast morning shows.
The BYD electric car was featured on the show, looked about the same size as the wife's Mazda Cx5.
Will definitely have a look at this one.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (22 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yesterday morning while trapped in the dentists chair, the TV on the ceiling had one of the commercial breakfast morning shows.
> The BYD electric car was featured on the show, looked about the same size as the wife's Mazda Cx5.
> Will definitely have a look at this one.
> Mick



Yes they sound good value for money, well considering they are an EV.
The son has gone off grid and has a 15KW/12 usable BYD house battery, LiPo blade design, they sound o.k.
If you don't travel huge distances and have your own solar panels, it would work out well IMO. 
It's a shame that Mitsubishi and Nissan are the only two that are already equipped with V2G and V2H technology.
Another couple of years and it will probably be standard in all of the E.V's. as with everything when it first comes out, it takes a few years for the manufacturers to stop having pizzing comps and start to standadise the equipment.


----------



## JohnDe (22 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yesterday morning while trapped in the dentists chair, the TV on the ceiling had one of the commercial breakfast morning shows.
> The BYD electric car was featured on the show, looked about the same size as the wife's Mazda Cx5.
> Will definitely have a look at this one.
> Mick




Is there a dealership closer than 200km to you, or have you decided that driving to Melbourne for a service is now acceptable?

#4,871


----------



## mullokintyre (22 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Is there a dealership closer than 200km to you, or have you decided that driving to Melbourne for a service is now acceptable?
> 
> #4,871



I said I was not keen on driving to Melbourne for a service on a car and I am still not keen on driving to Melbourne for a service. on a car.
Nothing has changed.
It is one of many factors to be considered in purchasing a new car, like the initial cost, build quality, price, resale value reputation etc etc.
Currently, no dealership near me can service EV's. 
I doubt any of them will spend the money on EV servicing setups until the court case between Mercedes and its dealership  owners is settled. 
If Mercedes wins and  direct selling becomes the norm, many dealerships will likely close,  as they will not make the money they used to and the dealerships land will be worth than the dealership itself.

Mick


----------



## JohnDe (22 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I said I was not keen on driving to Melbourne for a service on a car and I am still not keen on driving to Melbourne for a service. on a car.
> Nothing has changed.
> It is one of many factors to be considered in purchasing a new car, like the initial cost, build quality, price, resale value reputation etc etc.
> Currently, no dealership near me can service EV's.
> ...




Yes, you have stated a number of times that you are "not keen" to drive to Melbourne for a service. 

You also mentioned price and size.

The BYD  measuring 4070mm long, 1770mm wide and 1570mm high (with a 2700mm wheelbase)
Mazda CX-5 Dimensions 4,575 mm L x 1,845 mm W x 1,675 mm H (with a 2700mm wheelbase)

The Mazda CX-5 is available from $31,390 Mazda CX-5
BYD Atto 3 is available from $44381 BYD Atto 3

The Mazda is still looking good for your wife's needs.


----------



## rederob (22 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I said I was not keen on driving to Melbourne for a service on a car and I am still not keen on driving to Melbourne for a service. on a car.
> Nothing has changed.



As others have pointed out, there's not much involved and anyone can do.


mullokintyre said:


> I doubt any of them will spend the money on EV servicing setups until the court case between Mercedes and its dealership  owners is settled.



Given that BYD will use *mycar *(formerly KMart Tyre & Auto) to service their vehicles there are no extra set up costs for workshops.


mullokintyre said:


> If Mercedes wins and  direct selling becomes the norm, many dealerships will likely close,  as they will not make the money they used to and the dealerships land will be worth than the dealership itself.



Looks like you are looking for a problem when there is none.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 February 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The Mazda is still looking good for your wife's needs.



Thanks for that, I will pass it on to my wife.
Mick


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## sptrawler (22 February 2022)

Well we did say that subsidising E.V's would just give money to the rich.

Claim electric car subsidy a ‘reverse Robin Hood’ scheme​Postcode data shows a green scheme that subsidises people buying electric cars has been overwhelmingly taken up by wealthy Sydney suburbs.









						Rich postcodes where motorists claiming $5,000 electric car subsidies
					

Motorists living in upmarket areas of Sydney's north shore are more likely to be claiming thousands of dollars in rebates and stamp duty exemptions on the taxpayer dollar.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Value Collector (22 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I said I was not keen on driving to Melbourne for a service on a car and I am still not keen on driving to Melbourne for a service. on a car.
> Nothing has changed.
> It is one of many factors to be considered in purchasing a new car, like the initial cost, build quality, price, resale value reputation etc etc.
> Currently, no dealership near me can service EV's.
> ...



Luckily EVs don’t require as much servicing.


----------



## Value Collector (22 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well we did say that subsidising E.V's would just give money to the rich.
> 
> Claim electric car subsidy a ‘reverse Robin Hood’ scheme​Postcode data shows a green scheme that subsidises people buying electric cars has been overwhelmingly taken up by wealthy Sydney suburbs.
> 
> ...



They said the same thing when subsidy’s for solar panels first came out, but those “rich” folks that got in early helped build the solar industry that know serves everyone.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 February 2022)

This is my kind of tesla.

Mick


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> They said the same thing when subsidy’s for solar panels first came out, but those “rich” folks that got in early helped build the solar industry that know serves everyone.



That's true but I would rather see them spending the money on charging infrastructure before subsidising the cars.
Everyone has their own preferences.
With solar panels the rich people who could afford them first, got the higher feed in tariff, now it serves everyone the feed in tariff is a lot less.


----------



## Value Collector (23 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's true but I would rather see them spending the money on charging infrastructure before subsidising the cars.
> Everyone has their own preferences.
> With solar panels the rich people who could afford them first, got the higher feed in tariff, now it serves everyone the feed in tariff is a lot less.



I am of the opposite opinion, I think charging infrastructure will take care of its self, once the car numbers grow, look at Teslas global network it’s grown without government.

most of the non Tesla chargers sit there never being used, so ofcourse private businesses isn’t going to want to increase the number of chargers, but if you increase the number of cars, the utilisation rate of existing chargers goes up, which is enough incentive itself.


----------



## sptrawler (23 February 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am of the opposite opinion, I think charging infrastructure will take care of its self, once the car numbers grow, look at Teslas global network it’s grown without government.
> 
> most of the non Tesla chargers sit there never being used, so ofcourse private businesses isn’t going to want to increase the number of chargers, but if you increase the number of cars, the utilisation rate of existing chargers goes up, which is enough incentive itself.



I think you are absolutely right, when it comes to major cities, especially Sydney, Melbourne, as with the telecommunications they will be well serviced.
So the majority are happy, situation normal. 
I hope they do give a subsidy for E.V's, I'm looking into buying one ATM.


----------



## rederob (23 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's true but I would rather see them spending the money on charging infrastructure before subsidising the cars.
> Everyone has their own preferences.
> With solar panels the rich people who could afford them first, got the higher feed in tariff, now it serves everyone the feed in tariff is a lot less.



I think they can do both.
However, to encourage BEV uptake we should adopt a progressive incentive regime which offers greatest level of subsidy to less expensive cars which, clearly, more people can afford.  For example, $5k incentive for under $40k BEVs (none here yet, but offer the incentive and they will come), $4k from $40 to $50, $3k for $50 to $60, etc..

There are many possible measures but unfortunately Australia lacks a commitment to harmonising State/Territory incentives so we presently have a fragmented market and it's only going to get worse.

Much earlier in this thread I outlined many things which could be done, especially in relation to waiving importation taxes and duties for BEVs at the federal level, which is a starting point.

Some other ideas to encourage private ownership:

A federally backed car finance scheme for BEVs costing *under $50k*with interest payments locked in at 2% above the prevailing Reserve Bank cash rate until annual BEV sales exceeded 20%
this would encourage earlier adoption due to fomo

Exemptions from road pricing charges (until 2025)
State reimbursement of road tolls (annual cap of $1k) for first 2 years of ownership
Old vehicle scrapping incentive of $5k towards BEV purchase where ICEV was over 15 years old.
The alternative to ideas encouraging BEV uptake would be measures to discourage ICEV ownership, although both could run in tandem.


----------



## Humid (24 February 2022)

Fremantle


----------



## moXJO (25 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Fremantle
> 
> 
> 
> ...



2015 stock orders has arrived I see.


----------



## mullokintyre (25 February 2022)

they are Teslas by the look of them.
Will probably sit there forever as so few people can afford to buy them!
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (25 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> they are Teslas by the look of them.
> Will probably sit there forever as so few people can afford to buy them!
> Mick




They’re all pre-sold. Production can’t keep up with demand, this has helped Tesla vehicles have one of the best resale value on the market.


> EV sales in Australia got a boost in 2021. Tesla uptake and ownership in Australia started to show hockey stick growth as many more Australians decided to make the shift from ICE vehicles.
> 
> Diving deeper into 2021’s new Tesla ownership numbers revealed that Queensland edged Victoria in Tesla uptake during the year. I decided to compare these two states in our analysis as both Queensland and Victoria sold similar cars in 2020 of around 850 Tesla sales, while NSW sold 50% more Teslas so it was a fairer comparison.











						How Tesla Model 3 uptake soared in Queensland, topping Victoria in 2021
					

Queensland Tesla sales edged ahead of Victoria in 2021, but only one state introduced EV rebates. So how did incentives help uptake in Queensland?




					thedriven.io


----------



## mullokintyre (25 February 2022)

Sometimes things just don't work out as the experts expect.
From Zero Hedge


> It looks as though living the alternative energy EV dream is coming with higher costs...at least, that's what's being reported on the ground in Munich.
> Germany's "messy transition to renewable energies" is resulting in an unpleasant surprise for EV owners at charging stations, energy-focused German blog NoTricksZone writes this week.
> In Munich, the _Stadtwerke München_ municipal utility has announced it is going to raise the price of electricity by 81%, the blog reported, citing multiple German news outlets.
> “At the AC charging stations, the electricity price will rise from 38 cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) to 49 cents per kWh, while at DC fast charging stations the amount will jump from the current 38 cents per kWh to a whopping 69 cents per kWh,” the Munich online daily Merkur reports.
> ...



The EV users are still better off given the increase in cost of oil and hence diesel and Peterol prices.

Mick


----------



## Humid (25 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> they are Teslas by the look of them.
> Will probably sit there forever as so few people can afford to buy them!
> Mick



Plenty of money over here we dig holes and sell good coffee!


----------



## JohnDe (25 February 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Sometimes things just don't work out as the experts expect.
> From Zero Hedge
> 
> The EV users are still better off given the increase in cost of oil and hence diesel and Peterol prices.
> ...




I don’t know about Germany but our Tesla is saving us a fortune in fuel bills.
My wife’s fuel card statement was over $300 per month for her Honda Accord Euro (great car, still own it). The electricity bill for the Tesla M3LR is a third.




The app doesn’t give justice to the savings we’re making, the electricity price is Origin AUS, but fuel price is US & I haven’t worked out how to change it.


----------



## rederob (25 February 2022)

Finally a chance to invest in a solid Australian company - APE - making a big move into EVs.
APE's 5 year deal with BYD will give this carmaker a national presence that will stimulate EV ownership massively imho as the BYD EV car range is exceptionally good value for money ( I previously linked to their Dolphin model), with the new Han EV a standout vehicle:



As @JohnDe noted above, and @Value Collector has many times in this thread, while the purchase price is not cheap, the running costs save thousands every year and resale values are incredible as it's so hard to buy a quality EV in Australia that you can actually drive away the same day you pay for it.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 February 2022)

rederob said:


> Finally a chance to invest in a solid Australian company - APE - making a big move into EVs.
> APE's 5 year deal with BYD will give this carmaker a national presence that will stimulate EV ownership massively imho as the BYD EV car range is exceptionally good value for money ( I previously linked to their Dolphin model), with the new Han EV a standout vehicle:
> 
> View attachment 138108
> ...




Just in case it's relevant, BYD is a Chinese company.


----------



## rederob (25 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Just in case it's relevant, BYD is a Chinese company.



*Musk* acknowledges his best quality Teslas are made in China, so yes, it's definitely relevant.


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Just in case it's relevant, BYD is a Chinese company.





SirRumpole said:


> Just in case it's relevant, BYD is a Chinese company.



21.5% of it is owned by Berkshire Hathaway (Warren Buffetts) company, and 0.00015% of Berkshire Hathaway is owned by Me, so just think of it as being a little bit Aussie,


----------



## Value Collector (25 February 2022)

Warren Buffet, Charlie Munger and Bill gates discuss Berkshires shareholding in BYD.


----------



## JohnDe (27 February 2022)

My sentiment exactly -

_"Rusted on car enthusiasts often ask me how I can possibly get excited about electric vehicles, but the fact is, they are the future, and that, increasingly, they’re where the really cool stuff is to be found." _​By Stephen Corby​February 26, 2022​


			https://www.theaustralian.com.au/special-reports/machines-of-the-future-put-clever-fun-ideas-into-gear/news-story/45f25544c08783ff2756456910cdbe7b


----------



## rederob (27 February 2022)

I was intrigued to read this headline in Sharecafe last week:
*"Subsidy Pullback Hits Chinese EV Sales"*​While there were some good points, overall it totally failed to reflect the Chinese NEV market trend.
To begin January and February in particular are the weakest sales months for cars in China.
So while the December to January 2022 decline in sales was 18%, last year the same period's decline was around 30%, as shown below:
​The main problem with the article is that it failed completely to appreciate that NEVs in China are as cheap as ICEV counterparts across the board *and *are available at price points from US$4500 upwards, so most people with a job can now afford to buy an NEV.  It also explains why the Wuling Mini EV is the world's top selling EV model with 395k units sold in 2021. 

From an analytical standpoint the article also failed its own logic as NEV incentives have decreased each year, yet sales have doubled!

But mere numbers are only part of the story.  NEV manufacturing in China has yet to reach scale, with even Tesla ramping up production at their Shanghai plant throughout 2021 and now into 2022.  So while Chinese NEV incentives are declining, so too are manufacturing costs, while in-car technology is world class.

Another part of the article that amused me was this:
*"LMC reckons EV sales are on track to reach 46.98 million in 2033, or 20% more than gasoline cars with a lot of the new growth coming from the US and Europe where Chinese companies (except Tesla) are going to struggle (Geely and Volvo might be an exception)."*​By 2025 it's difficult to see why any automaker would produce an ICEV unless it was for a market niche.  However, it may be that not all the legacy automakers could pivot most of their production to NEVs due to material supply constraints, so that's where most ICEV numbers are likely to come from in subsequent years.  My prediction is that LMC will miss its forecast by at least 5 years.


----------



## divs4ever (27 February 2022)

for those that might have missed it 

Eagers Automotive enters Term Sheet to be exclusive Australian retailer for EV manufacturer BYD
 • A new dealer group to be established for BYD products (which will be a joint venture in which Eagers Automotive will have a 49% interest) to become exclusive national dealership retailer for electric and hybrid vehicle manufacturer BYD
 • Initial 5-year franchise agreement to provide an omni-channel retail footprint in all key markets in Australia
 • The dealer group will leverage Eagers Automotive’s retail expertise, scale, geographic diversity, flexible property portfolio and innovative omnichannel retail solutions including integrated digital experiences available online and in shopping centres, service factories and existing physical retail footprint. 
Eagers Automotive Limited (ASX: APE) announces that it has entered into a non-binding Term Sheet with EVDirect.com to establish a new joint venture, the dealer group, as the exclusive national retailer for BYD, the electric and hybrid vehicle manufacturer, as it enters the Australian market.
 Eagers Automotive will have a 49% interest in the joint venture.
 EVDirect.com has the exclusive distribution rights for BYD in Australia. Under the Term Sheet, the dealer group will be created to operate under a national franchise agreement to provide retail sales and after-sales service centres for BYD in all key Australian markets for an initial period of 5 years. 
Established in 1995 and based in Shenzhen, China, BYD is one of the world’s largest and fastest growing automotive manufacturers, specialising purely in electric and hybrid electric vehicles.
 BYD expects to commence deliveries of its first electric vehicle (EV) model in the Australian market from July 2022 with plans to increase to six models by the end of 2023. 
Eagers Automotive is committed to working expeditiously towards completion of due diligence and the finalisation of binding transaction documentation. Commenting on the new joint venture, Eagers Automotive CEO Keith Thornton, said: Page 2 of 2 “We are very excited to be the retail partner for BYD Australia and EVdirect.com as they enter the Australian market.
 BYD has clear ambitions to quickly grow its presence in Australia and increase EV penetration amongst Australian customers. 

This confirms Eagers Automotive at the forefront of Australia’s transition to a cleaner vehicle future and recognises our national footprint, geographic diversity, retail expertise and commitment to providing innovative solutions for the future of automotive retail.” Luke Todd the founder and CEO of EVDirect.com said: “With its unrivalled Australian network, retail expertise and leading customer proposition, Eagers Automotive will provide the foundation for BYD Australia to fast-track its expansion in the Australian market. BYD has an aspiration to grow into a top 5 automotive brand in Australia by sales volume in the next 18 months. BYD’s EVs are known for leading edge technology, superior range and pricing that is on parity with comparable high-quality petrol vehicles, making them ideally suited to the Australian market.”
 BYD Australia Pty Ltd General Manager, Wing You, said: “We have been impressed with the approach Eagers Automotive has adopted to provide retail solutions that are responsive to the changing demands of car buyers. It is very much aligned with our thinking and our plans to take BYD to market in Australia. 
When combined with their scale, track record and geographic reach in all key markets, we believe the new combined partnership will further complement the existing strategic plan to expedite BYD’s ambitious growth plans.” 

About BYD BYD (“Build Your Dreams”) was founded in 1995 by Wang Chuanfu as a rechargeable battery manufacturer and has grown into one of the world’s largest automotive manufacturers specialising purely in electric and hybrid-electric vehicles.
 Listed on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, BYD is the fourth largest automaker in the world by market capitalisation, producing more than 1.5 million vehicles since being founded, with a record 603,783 units sold in 2021.
 BYD is headquartered in Shenzhen, primarily serving the China market and customers in Europe.

 -ENDS-

 DYOR

 i hold APE

 looks like between WES and APE , i have  EV exposure whether i wanted it or not


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2022)

Further to @divs4ever post above, Eagers Automotive/ EV direct have also signed an agreement with Mycar, formerly Kmart tyres  and brakes, to distribute and service the BYD vehicles. So Australia wide coverage should be reasonable.








						Local BYD importer appoints mycar to be delivery, service partner
					

BYD's bold-talking Australian importer, which intends to sell online-only, is pairing with mycar to both service and deliver new EVs.




					www.carexpert.com.au


----------



## Humid (27 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Further to @divs4ever post above, Eagers Automotive/ EV direct have also signed an agreement with Mycar, formerly Kmart tyres  and brakes, to distribute and service the BYD vehicles. So Australia wide coverage should be reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again....


----------



## rederob (27 February 2022)

Humid said:


> Again....



They don't always *read **my links* from post#5034 or #5051.
I think @sptrawler is instead trying to find another media article he can blame for Scomo's poor ratings.


----------



## divs4ever (27 February 2022)

one might wonder what exclusive translates to in Mandarin 



 any decent listed law firms left listed on the ASX  ???


----------



## Humid (27 February 2022)

rederob said:


> They don't always *read **my links* from post#5034 or #5051.
> I think @sptrawler is instead trying to find another media article he can blame for Scomo's poor ratings.



He liked it lol
kraft setting in


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2022)

@rederob and @Humid , my apologies, princesses.


----------



## Humid (27 February 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @rederob and @Humid , my apologies, princesses.



No worries them Nokia's are hard to read.


----------



## rederob (27 February 2022)

Unless you can afford to buy a new car every few years, this video tells you why buying an ICEV now is a very bad idea:

Of course, the other side of the equation is the financial impact on legacy automakers, which implies their EV transitions will be significantly more costly the longer they delay going fully EV.


----------



## sptrawler (27 February 2022)

The financial impact on legacy auto makers, is already happening.








						Volkswagen Group eyes Porsche sell-off
					

Volkswagen – which last year offloaded the Bugatti marque and looked to sell Lamborghini – could list its German sports car maker to raise funds for




					www.drive.com.au
				



Volkswagen – which last year offloaded the Bugatti marque and looked to sell Lamborghini – could list its German sports car maker to raise funds for electric vehicle development.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (28 February 2022)

Did anyone see any EV's on the roads in Ukraine in all the footage?

gg


----------



## JohnDe (28 February 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Did anyone see any EV's on the roads in Ukraine in all the footage?
> 
> gg




Wasn't looking.

*Ukraine's electric car market has shown significant growth in recent years. In 2020 the number of electric cars has grown by 375% since 2018. It's estimated that by 2025 there will be over 50,000 cars.*​




__





						Electric cars market growth: how Ukraine can benefit – UkraineInvest
					






					ukraineinvest.gov.ua


----------



## JohnDe (28 February 2022)

Received an email today - 

*Charge FREE, FAST and CLEAN with new JOLT EV sites.*​​A raft of new JOLT EV charging sites are now live in Sydney and Adelaide.​​Find a charger near you now, on the JOLT app or on the JOLT website and #MoveFreely.​


----------



## Investoradam (28 February 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Did anyone see any EV's on the roads in Ukraine in all the footage?
> 
> gg



didnt notice the cars as i was busy looking for the EV or solar powered tanks to appear


----------



## Macquack (28 February 2022)

Investoradam said:


> didnt notice the cars as i was busy looking for the EV or solar powered tanks to appear



How's your ICE cordless drill going? Can you use it indoors, or is it for outdoor use only?


----------



## Investoradam (1 March 2022)

Macquack said:


> How's your ICE cordless drill going? Can you use it indoors, or is it for outdoor use only?



clearly don't understand the application or its purposes
ill start with a drill is different to a car?


----------



## Investoradam (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The financial impact on legacy auto makers, is already happening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you dont think a manufacturer like VW wouldn't have taken the EV car market in to account already?
they are only one of the more advanced and leading manufacturing & automobile makers in the world


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Investoradam said:


> you dont think a manufacturer like VW wouldn't have taken the EV car market in to account already?
> they are only one of the more advanced and leading manufacturing & automobile makers in the world



That advanced they invented clean diesel 
What did that cost them?


----------



## JohnDe (1 March 2022)

Investoradam said:


> you dont think a manufacturer like VW wouldn't have taken the EV car market in to account already?
> they are only one of the more advanced and leading manufacturing & automobile makers in the world




*This VW?*

VW, Audi Diesel Cheat Software Lawsuits Head to Top Texas Court

Dieselgate: British car buyers’ claim against VW reaches high court

Court says VW should have published engine plan that sparked dieselgate





__





						volkswagen diesel cheat - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## SirRumpole (1 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Warren Buffet, Charlie Munger and Bill gates discuss Berkshires shareholding in BYD.





It's not just about where the investment is, it's also about where the jobs are.


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not just about where the investment is, it's also about where the jobs are.



That only matters to some people, to others it is all about the bottom line, that what got us into this mess.  
We are just fortunate that toilet paper is still made here.
Hopefully with the advent of EV's, some part of the process can be carried out here, other than just digging holes.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That only matters to some people, to others it is all about the bottom line, that what got us into this mess.
> We are just fortunate that toilet paper is still made here.
> Hopefully with the advent of EV's, some part of the process can be carried out here, other than just digging holes.



Or get a job in a company that digs holes


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Or get a job in a company that digs holes



Those jobs are already there, I was suggesting new jobs, ones that might be more technically challenging.
Ones that lead to manufacturing jobs, near population centres, unlike the present ones, where people have to fly to where the hole in the ground is.
Jobs that drive technical, scientific and engineering excellence, that improve educational and social outcomes.
Or we can do as you say, just get a job with a company that digs hole, until all the holes are dug.


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

An article on EV batteries for those who are thinking of buying one.








						Can EV Batteries be Replaced or Upgraded?
					

EV batteries are rapidly becoming easier to replace and even upgrade. Learn what you can do with your EV battery.




					www.lifewire.com


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Those jobs are already there, I was suggesting new jobs, ones that might be more technically challenging.
> Ones that lead to manufacturing jobs, near population centres, unlike the present ones, where people have to fly to where the hole in the ground is.
> Jobs that drive technical, scientific and engineering excellence, that improve educational and social outcomes.
> Or we can do as you say, just get a job with a company that digs hole, until all the holes are dug.



I'm still driving my 20 year old Ford ute....the one built HERE
Rebuilt the auto last year no other problems


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> I'm still driving my 20 year old Ford ute....the one built HERE
> Rebuilt the auto last year no other problems



Just keep the rust out of it and it should last forever, unless a green government gets in, then they will probably ban the registration of old vehicles on "safety concerns, to protect you from getting hurt, when you hit a plastic EV". 😂


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It's not just about where the investment is, it's also about where the jobs are.



Is it concerning to that BYD will be creating jobs in Shenzen, China?

Were you equally concerned when Tesla started selling cars here, and in doing so was creating jobs in California?


----------



## Investoradam (1 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> *This VW?*
> 
> VW, Audi Diesel Cheat Software Lawsuits Head to Top Texas Court
> 
> ...



Most companies face law suits over the years








						Pfizer | Company History, Products & Lawsuits, COVID-19 Vaccine
					

Pfizer makes pharmaceutical drugs like Advil, Viagra and Lipitor. Injuries related to some of these medications have led to personal injury lawsuits.




					www.drugwatch.com
				












						Top 10 Largest Pharmaceutical Lawsuits & Settlement Amounts
					

Big Pharma sometimes has big legal problems. The courts are still catching up, and these settlements are in the millions and billions of dollars. See why.




					www.enjuris.com
				




hows those jabs going?
tell me how grerat they are and how much we can trust the drug manufacturers? who are exempt for the covid jabs people are being forced to take

every large company faces law suits over the years


----------



## Investoradam (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> That advanced they invented clean diesel
> What did that cost them?



tell me how an electrical car is clean again?


----------



## IFocus (1 March 2022)

Brother has a VW mobile home the cost of parts is hideous.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Most companies face law suits over the years
> 
> 
> 
> ...











						Smallpox in Two Boys | History of Vaccines
					

Boy on left was not vaccinated and has severe smallpox while boy on right was vaccinated and has mild smallpox. This photograph is from a collection of lantern slides used by Philadelphia physicians to illustrate the risks of not…




					www.historyofvaccines.org


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Investoradam said:


> tell me how an electrical car is clean again?



Ask Rodney


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2022)

Investoradam said:


> tell me how an electrical car is clean again?





Investoradam said:


> tell me how an electrical car is clean again?



They are “Cleaner” than petrol cars, no one claims they have zero impact, put simply Ev’s run on a combination of renewable fuels and fossil fuels, where as petrol cars are almost 100% fossil fuels, Also Ev’s use their energy more efficiently, petrol cars waste a lot of energy.

what this video, the links to all the science mentioned are in the description of you want to check the actual studies.

over their life evs will continue to get cleaner and cleaner as renewable energy is rolled out more, and batteries are recycled to produce new batteries.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Build quality is the only concern I have in buying an EV,everything else is pretty much a no brainer oh and the older I get the tighter I get


----------



## JohnDe (1 March 2022)

Investoradam said:


> Most companies face law suits over the years
> 
> 
> every large company faces law suits over the years




If you say so. Though I was commenting on the funny statement "_they are only one of the more advanced and leading manufacturing & automobile makers in the world_". 😆 So advanced and leading that they couldn't work out a exhaust system


----------



## rederob (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Build quality is the only concern I have in buying an EV,everything else is pretty much a no brainer oh and the older I get the tighter I get



Most are now "built" by robots with humans mostly doing small and fiddly assembly work, plus QA.
Very few of the Chinese EVs I have been looking at have less than a 7 year warranty, and one I saw had a 10 year mechanical warranty and a de facto lifetime warranty on its LFP battery which was expected to last over 30 years or 3000 cycles (ie. 2 full cycles a week).  
You only need to try to buy a second hand Tesla to see how well these cars last, and retain their value, even though Tesla's build quality in early years was somewhat average.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Most are now "built" by robots with humans mostly doing small and fiddly assembly work, plus QA.
> Very few of the Chinese EVs I have been looking at have less than a 7 year warranty, and one I saw had a 10 year mechanical warranty and a de facto lifetime warranty on its LFP battery which was expected to last over 30 years or 3000 cycles (ie. 2 full cycles a week).
> You only need to try to buy a second hand Tesla to see how well these cars last, and retain their value, even though Tesla's build quality in early years was somewhat average.



I'd still lean towards a company that had runs on the board....


----------



## SirRumpole (1 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Is it concerning to that BYD will be creating jobs in Shenzen, China?
> 
> Were you equally concerned when Tesla started selling cars here, and in doing so was creating jobs in California?




I would rather more jobs were in Australia, anything wrong with that ?

However it's amazing that someone of your experience doesn't recognise (or won't admit) the strategic problem that over reliance on the CCP for products and investment poses to the West in general and Australia in particular.

Just multiply Russia by about 10.

I think you are letting $$$ get in the way of commonsense.


----------



## rederob (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> I'd still lean towards a company that had runs on the board....



Only Nissan and Tesla have decent EV runs on the board.   But Nissan is in the EV dark ages, and so are most legacy automakers.
All the new start EV start up use a dedicated EV platform and have stolen the best technicians to get their products on the road.  Lucid was the best example in America.
I reckon you need a rethink!


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I would rather more jobs were in Australia, anything wrong with that ?
> 
> However it's amazing that someone of your experience doesn't recognise (or won't admit) the strategic problem that over reliance on the CCP for products and investment poses to the West in general and Australia in particular.
> 
> ...



I think globalisation is the here to stay, and I honestly believe the more integrated the global economy gets the security and prosperity there will be.

Of course I want massive amounts of investment and jobs created in Australia where it makes sense and where we have advantages, because we already have pretty low unemployment, I want our labour force directed to the industries where they will be most effective at generating value for our economy and the global economy.

if building a car factory here makes sense from an investment and labour force perspective, someone with make that investment.

where I would really love to see jobs being created is Africa,


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Only Nissan and Tesla have decent EV runs on the board.   But Nissan is in the EV dark ages, and so are most legacy automakers.
> All the new start EV start up use a dedicated EV platform and have stolen the best technicians to get their products on the road.  Lucid was the best example in America.
> I reckon you need a rethink!



Time will tell but I'm talking panel alignment,seals,leaks paint corrosion etc but hey only been pulling cars and motorcycles apart for 50 years so I'll let the guys that found cars a thing 2 years ago bask in the light.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> where I would really love to see jobs being created is Africa,




You would have to find a stable government there first.


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> You would have to find a stable government there first.



The trend of constant improvement is there to, if you ever get a chance to read the book called Factfullness I highly recommend it.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

For the keyboard mechanics...









						Tesla Quality Issues: Viral TikTok Video Shows Major Complaints About Elon Musk's Tesla Car
					

A TikTok video has gone viral after a 2022 Model S owner demonstrated several Tesla quality issues, including huge panel gaps in the hood.




					www.itechpost.com


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Do you think the vibe on EVs is accelerating due to the fact that an election is looming and anything prior is due to the rusted on Liberal fossil fuel narrative or what?


----------



## Smurf1976 (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Do you think the vibe on EVs is accelerating due to the fact that an election is looming



Australian elections, and Australia itself, are completely irrelevant to a global industry.


----------



## JohnDe (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Do you think the vibe on EVs is accelerating due to the fact that an election is looming and anything prior is due to the rusted on Liberal fossil fuel narrative or what?




No. I think EV attitudes are changing because of the price of fuel. My wife drives our EV & is saving $220 a month on fuel plus there’s no servicing costs. And everyone we take for a drive in it become a convert, even our hot rod and Harley friends.


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Do you think the vibe on EVs is accelerating due to the fact that an election is looming and anything prior is due to the rusted on Liberal fossil fuel narrative or what?



@JohnDe nailed it, the price of fuel and the fall in resale value of ICE cars, will push the uptake of E.V's, also when people go to trade in they will have to order a car.
The manufacturers aren't making stock on expected sales, they are only making to order, therefore people have to think do I buy an ICE car now and wait 6 months if so how much will it be worth when I need to replace it in 5 years?
Most rational thinking people will do the sums IMO.
I don't think it has anything to do with politics, if politicians get involved, all that will happen is taxpayers will help out the automakers.
As happens with the building stimulus, it just puts the price of houses up.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Australian elections, and Australia itself, are completely irrelevant to a global industry.



I mean local ....even here 
I know quite well how irrelevant we are thanks


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> I mean local ....even here
> I know quite well how irrelevant we are thanks



You know the mob who talked about weekends and mileage and towing capacity might not have given the industry much of a market


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @JohnDe nailed it, the price of fuel and the fall in resale value of ICE cars, will push the uptake of E.V's, also when people go to trade in they will have to order a car.
> The manufacturers aren't making stock on expected sales, they are only making to order, therefore people have to think do I buy an ICE car now and wait 6 months if so how much will it be worth when I need to replace it in 5 years?
> Most rational thinking people will do the sums IMO.
> I don't think it has anything to do with politics, if politicians get involved, all that will happen is taxpayers will help out the automakers.
> As happens with the building stimulus, just puts the price of houses up.



Fall of resale of cars....where do you live?


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Fall of resale of cars....where do you live?



Go and try to do a deal, see how it rolls, selling privately may be good I don't think trading in is as rosy as some think.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Go and try to do a deal, see how it rolls, selling privately may be good I don't think trading in is as rosy as some think.



There's no stock mate .....no cars join the waiting list


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> There's no stock mate .....no cars join the waiting list



You have no idea


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> You have no idea



O.k no need to get your knickers in a knot, we are only talking about cars mate.
Why would you have more of an idea than I?
I've bought, sold and rebuilt plenty of cars and bikes, so I don't know why you assume I have no idea.
Of course the value of ICE cars will fall as will their resale, if the price of fuel keeps escalating, it happened during the 1970's fuel crisis, you couldn't give away a V8.
At the auto auctions, bog standard meter readers Gemini's were fetching more than Falcon XB V8 pursuit cars.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Go and order a Landcruiser tomorrow


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Then give me a delivery date


----------



## SirRumpole (1 March 2022)

It's been pointed out before how low we rank as a market for EV's.

Either there has to be some serious money put into manufacturing them here, or the gov't has to slash luxury car tax or give some other incentive to buy them otherwise the manufacturers will ignore us and concentrate on the other markets.

Thanks to the coal waving moron, we are seen as a backwater for high tech ev vehicles.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

Semiconductors


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It's been pointed out before how low we rank as a market for EV's.
> 
> Either there has to be some serious money put into manufacturing them here, or the gov't has to slash luxury car tax or give some other incentive to buy them otherwise the manufacturers will ignore us and concentrate on the other markets.
> 
> Thanks to the coal waving moron, we are seen as a backwater for high tech ev vehicles.



Incentive like ruining your weekends type of incentive


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Go and order a Landcruiser tomorrow






Humid said:


> Then give me a delivery date



Go and order any desirable car tomorrow and give me a delivery date, the Hyundai EV6 orders run out to 2005, a mate ordered a Hyundai I20N he has been waiting 3 months, still no arrival time.
Like I said, most manufacturers are only making to order, it makes sense, the last thing they want is the cost of making cars on spec with a  hope that they will sell.
The cost to change over to E.V's will be huge, the last thing they will want is to be making ICE cars, that they have to support for 10years from manufacture.
That is just smart business sense, wait until the supply of EV's improves, then see what price you get for an ICE car.


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Go and order a Landcruiser tomorrow



Why would I order a Landcruiser? with fuel heading well above $2/litre? I've just sold a diesel 4X4, been there done that.
How many 2nd hand 200 series and caravans do you think will be on the market, when the borders open and O/S travel starts again?
In the last two years people will have seen enough of Australian country Towns, to last them a lifetime. 🤣


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Go and order any desirable car tomorrow and give me a delivery date, the Hyundai EV6 orders run out to 2005, a mate ordered a Hyundai I20N he has been waiting 3 months, still no arrival time.
> Like I said, most manufacturers are only making to order, it makes sense, the last thing they want is the cost of making cars on spec with a  hope that they will sell.
> The cost to change over to E.V's will be huge, the last thing they will want is to be making ICE cars, that they have to support for 10years from manufacture.
> That is just smart business sense, wait until the supply of EV's improves, then see what price you get for an ICE car.



2005 is where your head is


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> 2005 is where your head is



Why do you say that? have you ordered an E.V or something.
Or are you expecting your ICE car to just keep going up in value? And you think my head is in 2005, mate it takes all kinds.


----------



## Humid (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Why do you say that? have you ordered an E.V or something.
> Or are you expecting your ICE car to just keep going up in value? And you think my head is in 2005, mate it takes all kinds.



Well it's 2022


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Well it's 2022



That's right and I'm saying that E.V's are picking up and ICE vehicles will slowly disappear, you say that's rubbish try and order a new Landcruiser.
You are actually agreeing with Scomo, which is weird because you say he is talking rubbish, when he says E.V's will ruin the weekend.

Really you don't know what to think do you, you can't actually work out a scenario, so you slag off at me, when I've actually given reasons for my beliefs.
Your just trolling aren't you, mindless trolling.
If not give some reasons and stop criticising Scomo, he is on your side. 👍


----------



## Value Collector (1 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's right and I'm saying that E.V's are picking up and ICE vehicles will slowly disappear, you say that's rubbish try and order a new Landcruiser.
> You are actually agreeing with Scomo, which is weird because you say he is talking rubbish, when he says E.V's will ruin the weekend.
> 
> Really you don't know what to think do you, you can't actually work out a scenario, so you slag off at me, when I've actually given reasons for my beliefs.
> ...



I still remember people thinking IPhones were a fad, and a toy for rich nerds, look at the phone market now though.

Now cars last longer than phones, so the uptake curb won’t be as steep, but the numbers of EV’s on the road will steadily rise, there is no way that ICE cars aren’t going to decline.


----------



## sptrawler (1 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I still remember people thinking IPhones were a fad, and a toy for rich nerds, look at the phone market now though.
> 
> Now cars last longer than phones, so the uptake curb won’t be as steep, but the numbers of EV’s on the road will steadily rise, there is no way that ICE cars aren’t going to decline.



When people with a bit of cash go in to change over cars, if they are trading in a reasonable car worth for example $30-$40k, what are they going to buy a Tesla for mid $60k or an ICE high  spec car from a mid range manufacturer?
Most legacy manufacturers have now raised the price of their ICE range, especially the ones that compete in the luxury mid range market around the $40-$50k mark.
If they are after a dual cab ute, or a tow vehicle, at the moment they will go for an ICE vehicle. But in five years time who knows what will be available in the EV range.
As with your example with the IPhone, it was mentioned in this thread, 10 years ago every taxi in Australia was running on LPG, now you would be lucky to find one. 
Hybrids just make a lot more sense, than converting the same model ICE vehicle to LPG i.e the Toyota Camry.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 March 2022)

Humid said:


> I mean local ....even here
> I know quite well how irrelevant we are thanks



Realistically how many Australians care even slightly about the federal government these days?

Sometime in the past sure, people respected Hawke for example whether they agreed with him on any particular matter or not but those days are long gone. Prime Minister isn't a title that's held in high regard anymore and especially not when it comes to the private decision of buying a car.

The average person will buy a car that suits their needs which, for most, is defined as some combination of practicality, economy and prestige. If it's petrol, diesel or electric then so be it.


----------



## Humid (2 March 2022)

When you have a PM constantly doing this for whatever purpose they think it achieves I'm not sure about what the public thinks









						How good are photo ops? Scott Morrison holds a hammer and sits in big machines – in pictures
					

Australia’s prime minister has been posing in hard hat and behind the wheel of everything from trucks to tanks




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## JohnDe (2 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> When people with a bit of cash go in to change over cars, if they are trading in a reasonable car worth for example $30-$40k, what are they going to buy a Tesla for mid $60k or an ICE high  spec car from a mid range manufacturer?
> Most legacy manufacturers have now raised the price of their ICE range, especially the ones that compete in the luxury mid range market around the $40-$50k mark.
> If they are after a dual cab ute, or a tow vehicle, at the moment they will go for an ICE vehicle. But in five years time who knows what will be available in the EV range.
> As with your example with the IPhone, it was mentioned in this thread, 10 years ago every taxi in Australia was running on LPG, now you would be lucky to find one.
> Hybrids just make a lot more sense, than converting the same model ICE vehicle to LPG i.e the Toyota Camry.





Trade-in pricing has been dropping since December last year. New car supply has slowly been ramping up and dealerships do not want to be caught with expensive used stock when replacement new stock starts filling their storage yards.

Private used sales is still relatively high.

Potential buyers of new vehicles are in a bit of a conundrum - what to buy that will maintain good resale value while EV sales keep growing? Do I buy a hybrid or wait for an EV equivalent?


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

Spot on @JohnDe , the cost is very close between hybrid and EV.
With regard selling or trading I work out what camparable cars to mine are selling for, then just work out what chanegeover I want, if I cant get jt, then I try to sell privately.
With the supply problems, there is no movement on the new vehicle price ATM.
Well that is what I found in W.A and I checked from Mandurah to Morley a suburb North of Perth, so that was about 10 dealerships and  about 100klm.
It may be different over East.


----------



## Humid (2 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Go and order any desirable car tomorrow and give me a delivery date, the Hyundai EV6 orders run out to 2005, a mate ordered a Hyundai I20N he has been waiting 3 months, still no arrival time.
> Like I said, most manufacturers are only making to order, it makes sense, the last thing they want is the cost of making cars on spec with a  hope that they will sell.
> The cost to change over to E.V's will be huge, the last thing they will want is to be making ICE cars, that they have to support for 10years from manufacture.
> That is just smart business sense, wait until the supply of EV's improves, then see what price you get for an ICE car.



Maybe read your own posts precious


----------



## Humid (2 March 2022)

Go and talk to fleet buyers and Hire car companies about supply


----------



## JohnDe (2 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on @JohnDe , the cost is very close between hybrid and EV.
> With regard selling or trading I work out what camparable cars to mine are selling for, then just work out what chanegeover I want, if I cant get jt, then I try to sell privately.
> With the supply problems, there is no movement on the new vehicle price ATM.
> Well that is what I found in W.A and I checked from Mandurah to Morley a suburb North of Perth, so that was about 10 dealerships and  about 100klm.
> It may be different over East.




Yes, each state may be different though I doubt it will be by much. I am involved in the industry and noticed a slight change at the end of 2021, and the change is picking up pace in 2022. There's not a lot of quality stock out there but there is also not a lot of people willing to pay the prices of 6+ months ago. The mad rush to buy any car during the lock downs has slowed drastically, the buyers that missed out are now willing to wait.

If anyone is thinking of selling they'd better do it now, because soon it is going to be hard to move your used car at a price that you think is fair.


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Maybe read your own posts precious



Well reading my posts, would be a lot more informative than reading your diatribe, there is only so many times you can say you hate Scott Morrison, it's a shame that is all you add to the forum.
But I guess you are struggling with personal issues, the same as the rest of us, it's a shame you can't seem to get over your anger.


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes, each state may be different though I doubt it will be by much. I am involved in the industry and noticed a slight change at the end of 2021, and the change is picking up pace in 2022. There's not a lot of quality stock out there but there is also not a lot of people willing to pay the prices of 6+ months ago. The mad rush to buy any car during the lock downs has slowed drastically, the buyers that missed out are now willing to wait.
> 
> If anyone is thinking of selling they'd better do it now, because soon it is going to be hard to move your used car at a price that you think is fair.



It is an interesting situation, I've never been to buy a car, where they all seem to be very inflexible. They certainly sounded like they are singing from the same song sheet, Toyota, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Tesla, same story we value your car, no you can't have a demo and the new car has to be ordered.
Well that was with hybrids and E.V's, didn't try buying an ICE vehicle. Maybe they will be more flexible on ICE vehicles, because they probably want to move them quickly. 
Just my experience, in the last coupe of weeks.


----------



## Humid (2 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well reading my posts, would be a lot more informative than reading your diatribe, there is only so many times you can say you hate Scott Morrison, it's a shame that is all you add to the forum.
> But I guess you are struggling with personal issues, the same as the rest of us, it's a shame you can't seem to get over your anger.



You assume i'm angry


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

Humid said:


> You assume i'm angry



Well there has to be a reason for your constant attack on people, unless you are just an unpleasant person by nature, but if that was the case you would probably have trouble getting return work and you don't seem to have trouble with that.
So yes I assume your angry, you don't want to add anything to discussions, just three word criticisms, it might be your way of interacting, but normal people find it unusual, aggressive and somewhat weird.
You tell me to read back through my posts, why don't you try the same, maybe this thread, then ask yourself what of value have you added. When you have done that, you could try other threads, you will find the same, you add nothing but spite, mainly aimed at Morrison, myself, WayneL and moxjo.


----------



## Humid (2 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well there has to be a reason for your constant attack on people, unless you are just an unpleasant person by nature, but if that was the case you would probably have trouble getting return work and you don't seem to have trouble with that.
> So yes I assume your angry, you don't want to add anything to discussions, just three word criticisms, it might be your way of interacting, but normal people find it unusual, aggressive and somewhat weird.
> You tell me to read back through my posts, why don't you try the same, maybe this thread, then ask yourself what of value have you added. When you have done that, you try other threads, you will find the same, you add nothing but spite, mainly aimed at Morrison and myself and moxjo.



Do you need a hug?


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Do you need a hug?



No not at all, I spent my whole life, dealing with strange people like you, why would you bother me.
I'm just trying to get you to join in the forum as a valued contributing member, instead of the way you are interacting up until now, using the forum as a place to vent just limits how much you can get out of it.
Maybe you have run out of friends, so you come here to vent, I guess it does save you doing it to you close family? Leopards don't change their spots, so I guess your a person who likes to try and bully people, whatever turns you on mate. 👍


----------



## Humid (2 March 2022)

Just spoke to the Mrs about a random bloke on a forum reckons I should become a valued contributing member
She said to tell him to f.... off and get a life


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Just spoke to the Mrs about a random bloke on a forum reckons I should become a valued contributing member
> She said to tell him to f.... off and get a life



Well that is self explanatory, sounds as though you're a match made in heaven. 🤣
She is probably just happy, you're on the forum and not dribbling $hit to her for a change.


----------



## rederob (2 March 2022)

European car market judges voted for their *Car of the Year,* and surprised themselves:

The Europeans typically vote with a bias towards their own country's products, but they were outclassed by an exotic.
The bad news for us is that despite 2 solid weeks of advertising in Australia in January this Car of the Year is actually impossible to buy at present.
If that doesn't tell ICEV owners where the future lies, then nothing will.


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

rederob said:


> European car market judges voted for their *Car of the Year,* and surprised themselves:
> 
> The Europeans typically vote with a bias towards their own country's products, but they were outclassed by an exotic.
> The bad news for us is that despite 2 solid weeks of advertising in Australia in January this Car of the Year is actually impossible to buy at present.
> If that doesn't tell ICEV owners where the future lies, then nothing will.



I think people who are just judging this ICE transition from a lounge chair, are going to be in for the shock of their lives, when they go to buy a new car. It is a whole new experience, whether that is fleeting or here to stay, who knows.


----------



## mullokintyre (2 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I still remember people thinking IPhones were a fad, and a toy for rich nerds, look at the phone market now though.
> 
> Now cars last longer than phones, so the uptake curb won’t be as steep, but the numbers of EV’s on the road will steadily rise, there is no way that ICE cars aren’t going to decline.



The difference is, in the case of mobile phones, no one was  urging the government to provide subsidies for the early wealthy uptakers to buy or lease their mobile phone.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (2 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The difference is, in the case of mobile phones, no one was  urging the government to provide subsidies for the early wealthy uptakers to buy or lease their mobile phone.
> Mick




Except for the phone towers and lines, especially to remote areas.


----------



## mullokintyre (2 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Except for the phone towers and lines, especially to remote areas.



Well, there are no lines for Mobiles,  and what subsidies were given for towers?
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The difference is, in the case of mobile phones, no one was  urging the government to provide subsidies for the early wealthy uptakers to buy or lease their mobile phone.
> Mick



The Government have committed over $10 Billion in subsidies for the telecommunications network that those phones require to work though, So they have received a lot more support than Ev’s.

but also, you haven’t ever seen me say that Ev’s should be subsidised, all I have said is that we should refrain adding taxes extra taxes to them until they are more establish.


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, there are no lines for Mobiles,  and what subsidies were given for towers?
> Mick



Yes there are, Mobile phone towers link into the normal land line grid.

So if you are calling some one on your mobile, the signal goes to your closest tower, then is fed into the land line grid and travels to the other persons nearest tower, then is sent from the tower to over the air to them.

Also, I would think at-least half mobile phone use these days happens on wifi, not all calls but the data use and video calls etc, and the land line/NBN has been heavily subsidised.


----------



## mullokintyre (2 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yes there are, Mobile phone towers link into the normal land line grid.
> 
> So if you are calling some one on your mobile, the signal goes to your closest tower, then is fed into the land line grid and travels to the other persons nearest tower, then is sent from the tower to over the air to them.



Unfortunately, your argument misses the point.
I said that no one suggested that mobile Phones be sudsided.
Your analogy is equivalent to arguing that the roads, or the filling/charging stations  were subsided.
As to saying that reducing taxes is not a subsidy, try telling that to the people who argue that miners, farmers, tradies etc who get tax relief from diesel excise  and GST are not getting subsidies.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

I don't know why everyone is saying that the transition to E.V's isn't subsidised, or do you mean you want someone to help you buy one? That is two different things. 🤣
Apart from Victoria and Queensland, all the other States and the Feds seem to be pulling their weight.










						Government to fund electric car infrastructure, won't offer subsidies
					

The Government's latest EV plan doesn't include federal emissions standards, tax incentives or subsidies, but does co-fund more home chargers.




					www.carexpert.com.au
				



The Australian Government wants to add 50,000 charging stations in homes across Australia in concert with the private sector, with the goal of getting 1.7 million electric vehicles on the road by 2030.
t has announced the $250 million Future Fuels and Vehicles Strategy, of which $178 million is earmarked to support this rollout of infrastructure. A claimed 2600 jobs will be created over three years.
However, the Australian Government hasn’t announced any subsidies or tax incentives for the purchase of electric vehicles, nor has it confirmed any kind of EV targets or stop-sale date for internal combustion-powered vehicles.










						SA to roll out EV charging network
					

South Australia will establish a network of more than 500 charging points for electric cars in a bid to encourage more people to switch to EVs.




					7news.com.au
				




A network of more than 500 charging points will be established across South Australia in a plan to make electric cars the first choice for buyers by 2030.

SA's peak motoring group, the Royal Automobile Association, has won a $12 million state government grant to establish 536 'fast' and 'rapid' charging stations across 140 rural, regional and metropolitan locations.






__





						Media Statements - WA accelerates towards longest EV fast charging network
					






					www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au
				




*The WA government is putting forward $21 million to build Australia's longest EV charging network by 2024*. It will have 90 fast-charging stations at 45 locations from Kununurra in the north, to Esperance in the south and east to Kalgoorlie. Electric vehicles can drive between 260km to 500km when fully charged









						NSW opens funding for first of 1,000 ultra fast EV chargers, country's biggest network
					

NSW opens first funding round for planned network of 1,000 ultra fast EV chargers, which it says will be biggest in Australia.




					thedriven.io
				




NSW has revealed it is committing $171 million toward building more than 1,000 EV charging stations in the state, as Australia accelerates its investment in low-emissions vehicles.


*Then there is Queensland*









						Queensland to add 18 new EV chargers to take 'electric super highway' inland
					

Queensland to extend its 'Electric Super Highway' with the addition of 18 new fast-chargers.




					thedriven.io
				



The Queensland Government supported supercharger network will expand with 18 additional charging sites, with $2.75 million in new funding.





__





						Queensland’s electric vehicle super highway charges ahead with new sites
					





					statements.qld.gov.au
				



The rollout of these new sites, which will be sponsored by RACQ under a new partnership with the State Government, means EV drivers are good to go and explore Queensland this summer.”

Mr Bailey said the $2.5 million investment in 13 more charging stations was well advanced, with civil works completed at most sites.


*And then there is Victoria.*









						Getting More Electric Vehicle Chargers Across Victoria | Premier of Victoria
					

The Victorian Government is calling for businesses, councils and community organisations to install electric vehicle charging stations across the state, with $5 million in funding to expand Victoria’s network of fast-chargers – including chargers that give electric vehicles enough power to drive...




					www.premier.vic.gov.au
				




*The Victorian Government is calling for businesses, councils and community organisations to install electric vehicle charging stations across the state, with $5 million in funding* to expand Victoria’s network of fast-chargers – including chargers that give electric vehicles enough power to drive 100km after ten minutes of charging.


----------



## JohnDe (2 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, there are no lines for Mobiles,  and what subsidies were given for towers?
> Mick




*Telstra, Optus and TPG are getting $13.2 million in federal funding to improve back-up power at 467 mobile phone towers across the country.*


----------



## mullokintyre (2 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> *Telstra, Optus and TPG are getting $13.2 million in federal funding to improve back-up power at 467 mobile phone towers across the country.*



Once Again, it is the infrastructure, not the Mobile Phones, that are being subsidsed.
Everyone gets to use the infrastructure, regardless of their phone or EV.

Mick


----------



## JohnDe (2 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Once Again, it is the infrastructure, not the Mobile Phones, that are being subsidsed.
> Everyone gets to use the infrastructure, regardless of their phone or EV.
> 
> Mick




I didn’t get any subsidies when buying my EV.


----------



## sptrawler (2 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I didn’t get any subsidies when buying my EV.



I think that is the correct way to go, it is up to the manufacturers to sort out the pricing, if they can't sell cars then only the ones who make them efficiently will survive.
People need cars, if the price of an E.V doesn't stack up, people wont buy them, if the price of an ICE car and the cost to run it is the same as the E.V people will make a more circumspect choice.
Once one or the other gets subsidised it distorts the the market, will it collapse the value of ICE cars, will it encourage the manufacturers to just sit on their hands regarding development of the E.V's.
I think Australia is actually taking a very sensible middle of the road stance, we don't produce cars, so the cars will change as manufacturers transition across to E.V's, it is more important the infrastructure grows as the up take increases IMO.
Forcing the issue with subsidies, to speed the uptake, will just bring with it a lot of unforeseen growing pains IMO
I think it will happen a lot quicker than people think anyway.
There is a reason, that every other week, another classic car raffle pops up IMO. One there are plenty who want one and two, there are plenty who want to get rid of one.








						1988 Ferrari Testarossa Giveaway - Classics for a Cause
					

At Classics for a Cause, we offer VIP Memberships that give you entries to win classic cars like the 1988 Ferrari Testarossa. Join now!




					classicsforacause.com.au
				







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						Hello Lifestyle Australia - WIN a 2022 Nissan Patrol Widebody V8
					

Say hello to your new luxury lifestyle! Become a member and receive automatic entry into our ultimate prize pool of cars, vacations, luxury items and cash prizes. Memberships from only $25. It could be your ticket to luxury. Proud supporters of Red Frogs Charity Australia.




					www.hlsaustralia.com.au
				







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						Home - Classics for a Cause
					

We're a team of classic car lovers that wanted to give customers a one stop shop for automotive discounts.




					classicsforacause.com.au
				




My two cents worth.


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Unfortunately, your argument misses the point.
> I said that no one suggested that mobile Phones be sudsided.
> Your analogy is equivalent to arguing that the roads, or the filling/charging stations  were subsided.
> As to saying that reducing taxes is not a subsidy, try telling that to the people who argue that miners, farmers, tradies etc who get tax relief from diesel excise  and GST are not getting subsidies.
> Mick



Firstly Ev owners do pay GST when they purchase electricity, so we aren’t avoiding GST, and as pointed out many times before the benefits of EVs can help reduce government spending on things like health care for air pollution, which is more than the total fuel excise anyway.

I didn’t say anything about reducing taxes, I said we should avoid adding more taxes to them, eg don’t bring in an EV tax atleast till after they are established.

Other than that I don’t think the government needs to do anything, except just stand out of the way and avoid saying stupid stuff.


----------



## mullokintyre (2 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I didn’t get any subsidies when buying my EV.



I have no idea if you did or did not, but  in post #4091 you said 


> It can make sense for governments to attract big employers because it shortens dole lines (reduces government spending) while increases the number of people paying income tax (increases government revenue).
> 
> I am not saying it makes sense in all cases, but the government investing in a few tax breaks and incentives here and there when done intelligently can actually provide good returns back to the tax payer.




Which to me,  sounds suspiciously like a call to provide subsidies.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (2 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I have no idea if you did or did not, but  in post #4091 you said
> 
> 
> Which to me,  sounds suspiciously like a call to provide subsidies.
> Mick




🤓 I hope that you are better at investing than you are at accusations and fact finding.


----------



## Value Collector (2 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I have no idea if you did or did not, but  in post #4091 you said
> 
> 
> Which to me,  sounds suspiciously like a call to provide subsidies.
> Mick



I made that comment not John De, and it’s true that is just a statement of fact, that incentives can make economic sense.

But I wasn’t suggesting that we need the government to subsidise EV’s.

It was just a general comment saying that government incentives can be good investments, if you go back and read the preceding comments I was replying to, you will see it was just a general comment, in fact it was ICE car subsidies being discussed.


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> all I have said is that we should refrain adding taxes extra taxes to them until they are more establish.



Trouble is there's a political argument, which comes mostly from the far-Left end of the political spectrum (eg the Greens) which says failing to tax = subsidy.

I don't agree with it, but then I don't agree with most nonsense that comes from politicians but it is what it is, part of the big problem of politics having gotten involved in all this energy stuff where it really has no place at all.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Your analogy is equivalent to arguing that the roads, or the filling/charging stations  were subsided.
> As to saying that reducing taxes is not a subsidy, try telling that to the people who argue that miners, farmers, tradies etc who get tax relief from diesel excise  and GST are not getting subsidies.



So tax cuts to the wealthy under the Coalition are examples of government subsidising the wealthy in your view?


----------



## mullokintyre (3 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> 🤓 I hope that you are better at investing than you are at accusations and fact finding.
> 
> View attachment 138470



My applogies, it was VC, not yourself who made the comment, I will sit in the naughty corner for two days.
Mick


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> 🤓 I hope that you are better at investing than you are at accusations and fact finding.
> 
> View attachment 138470



Federal subsidies, tax breaks and the like are presently not needed because it's near impossible to buy a BEV that you can drive away.  Wait times for delivery of 3 to 6 months are a good outcome and in some cases - as in Kia's Award winning EV6 - you cannot even use their buying portal because they don't know when next availability will be.  Talk to anyone who tried unsuccessfully (like my neighbour) to buy one of the 240 of Hyundai's Ionic 5 when they became available for online purchase last year about how hard it still is to get one.  Anyone who put a deposit on Tesla's Cybertruck has to wait until 2030.

On the other hand, any subsidies or tax breaks that could be offered would be offset by the safety and health benefits which were quantified earlier in this thread.  So while in the short term incentives are not needed, there nevertheless is a good case for offering them when availability improves.  There is also the significant contribution that BEVs will make towards getting to our CO2 emissions target:


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Federal subsidies, tax breaks and the like are presently not needed because it's near impossible to buy a BEV that you can drive away.  Wait times for delivery of 3 to 6 months are a good outcome and in some cases - as in Kia's Award winning EV6 - you cannot even use their buying portal because they don't know when next availability will be.  Talk to anyone who tried unsuccessfully (like my neighbour) to buy one of the 240 of Hyundai's Ionic 5 when they became available for online purchase last year about how hard it still is to get one.  Anyone who put a deposit on Tesla's Cybertruck has to wait until 2030.
> 
> On the other hand, any subsidies or tax breaks that could be offered would be offset by the safety and health benefits which were quantified earlier in this thread.  So while in the short term incentives are not needed, there nevertheless is a good case for offering them when availability improves.  There is also the significant contribution that BEVs will make towards getting to our CO2 emissions target:
> View attachment 138475




Let's face it, the big manufacturers are going to supply the big markets first.

Unless we make them here, or place large orders like for corporate or government fleets, they just won't be available in decent numbers.


----------



## JohnDe (3 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Let's face it, the big manufacturers are going to supply the big markets first.
> 
> Unless we make them here, or place large orders like for corporate or government fleets, they just won't be available in decent numbers.




Not that simple. 

The 'big manufacturers' don't have anywhere near the capacity to even supply their local markets. They are trying to maintain public and media interest by releasing small batches in majority of markets.

Traditional vehicle factories are set up for ICEV production, major upgrades are required, new machinery is required. Until they get dedicated EV production lines sorted, and sufficient battery supply, the 'big manufacturers' are going to struggle to produce EVs in decent numbers. 

Tesla went through the factory issue when they took over the old GM/Toyota factory and converted it. They learnt from that and then built their China factory, followed by Texas and Berlin.

That is why Tesla has a 5 year jump on the industry.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Let's face it, the big manufacturers are going to supply the big markets first.
> 
> Unless we make them here, or place large orders like for corporate or government fleets, they just won't be available in decent numbers.



China is the biggest manufacturing region and the biggest market.
They generally make cars much smaller than American's want so their vehicles are ideally suited to most of nations which drive on the LHS - with a total population near 2 billion - as per below:


Chinese exports are also increasing and locally based companies are buying more and larger car carriers to meet this demand, so landed vehicles will increase in number and decrease slightly in cost.
As we don't make any cars in Australia, sea transport costs are going to be the same whether or not they are NEVs or ICEVs, as the lifetime costs of ownership for EVs is already substantially lower than for equivalent ICEVs.  I will definitely be buying a BEV later this year, and am just waiting for a few more models to arrive.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Not that simple.
> 
> The 'big manufacturers' don't have anywhere near the capacity to even supply their local markets. They are trying to maintain public and media interest by releasing small batches in majority of markets.
> 
> ...




The bottom line remains the same, don't expect an increase in supply in Australia anytime soon...


----------



## JohnDe (3 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The bottom line remains the same, don't expect an increase in supply in Australia anytime soon...




Nothing large but EV supply has been increasing each year and will continue to increase. Just look at the Tesla sales numbers.



> Let's face it, the big manufacturers are going to supply the big markets first.
> 
> Unless we make them here, or place large orders like for corporate or government fleets, they just won't be available in decent numbers.




_Australia recorded *20,665 EV sales in 2021*, a significant increase from the 6,900 sold in 2020, which means electric cars now make up 1.95% of the new car market. The Tesla Model 3 was the bestselling electric car in Australia, with 12,094 vehicles sold last year – accounting for 58.5% of all EVs sold. _31 Jan 2022​








						New electric vehicle sales triple in Australia with Tesla outstripping other makers
					

US company’s Model 3 makes up more than half the electric cars sold in Australia in 2021, as EV market share grows to 1.95%




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The bottom line remains the same, don't expect an increase in supply in Australia anytime soon...



I suggest you read *this *and get up to speed.
Unless you mean next month then your views are stone ICE age.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I suggest you read *this *and get up to speed.
> Unless you mean next month then your views are stone ICE age.




The diversity will increase, but the actual numbers will be small.

As I said, we are a small market far away.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2022)

The thing with subsidies, is everyone wants them all industries all competing for free money to help their bottom line, the down side to it is that it isn't free money, it has to be paid for from taxes the Government gets its money from taxes.
So for every industry or every item that gets a subsidy, either some other sector loses some funding, or someone else has to pay more tax.

That's why I think subsidies have to be very focused and not just dished out willy nilly, when you think about the amount of susidies over the last couple of years, it is mid boggling subsidies for tests, vaccines, doubling the dole, paying jobkeeper and long standing subsidies e.g solar installations, green initiatives in hydrogen, diesel fuel subsidies, prescription subsidies etc eventually the books have to balance.

There is always something that should be subsidised, but it is like most things, there should be two lists the need to be subsidised list and the it would be nice if it was subsidised list.

With E.V's the infrastructure to charge the E.V's will need to be subsidised IMO, as the return on capital will be low, but the need of the public for widespread charging station rollout will be high, so the Governments will have to subsidise it as the Feds and the States are already doing.

The need for people to be given $10k to buy an electric car, just because they are dearer, just doesn't pass the pub test IMO.
Maybe if the purchaser had to sign an agreement with the Government, that their car can be used as a grid connected at call storage facility, something could be done, as then the Government is getting something in return from the subsidy.
But that is already being offered by companies like AGL, where you can lease a E.V through them, they supply the car and the electricity and use the storage.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The thing with subsidies, is everyone wants them all industries all competing for free money to help their bottom line, the down side to it is that it isn't free money, it has to be paid for from taxes the Government gets its money from taxes.
> So for every industry or every item that gets a subsidy, either some other sector loses some funding, or someone else has to pay more tax.
> 
> That's why I think subsidies have to be very focused and not just dished out willy nilly, when you think about the amount of susidies over the last couple of years, it is mid boggling subsidies for tests, vaccines, doubling the dole, paying jobkeeper and long standing subsidies e.g solar installations, green initiatives in hydrogen, diesel fuel subsidies, prescription subsidies etc eventually the books have to balance.
> ...




Subsidies would be ok as long as some money was returned to the taxpayer.

Instead of giving money to car companies to stay in Oz, we should have bought their production lines and leased them them back.

That way we would have had some assets instead of nothing.

Those production lines could now be producing EV's.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> As I said, we are a small market far away.



We are also an affluent market, so the margin per car will be much greater than for the average Chinese person buying an NEV.  Thus, Chinese manufacturers will target western markets whenever they can.

The other point is that irrespective of our market size, new vehicle purchase numbers are robust on an annual basis  - typically about a million per year - and all of these are imported.  The problem we have had is that other markets *are *offering incentives so we are at the back of the line from the legacy automakers, but not the Chinese, who just need to revamp their production lines for right hand drives, which isn't a problem as they have the Japanese and Indonesian markets across the waters and Thailand across the border.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The thing with subsidies, is everyone wants them all industries all competing for free money to help their bottom line, the down side to it is that it isn't free money, it has to be paid for from taxes the Government gets its money from taxes.
> So for every industry or every item that gets a subsidy, either some other sector loses some funding, or someone else has to pay more tax.



The taxation argument is a big con as was proven by JobKeeper which had no trouble dishing out hundreds of billions of dollars, and then not even bothering to claw back billions in overpayments.
Incentivising new and better products is smart and in the national interest.  Lots of options how are in this thread.  
As were the data on long term savings that could be attributed back to EVs from health and safety improvements.
What is not smart are the piecemeal and variable offerings from State governments that should have been addressed by a strong COAG.  However with an incompetent federal government that prefers to wave lumps of coal in Parliament that was never going to happen.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Let's face it, the big manufacturers are going to supply the big markets first.
> 
> Unless we make them here, or place large orders like for corporate or government fleets, they just won't be available in decent numbers.



Tesla is going to be building another factory in Shanghai, which will double production from 1Million cars to 2Million cars per year.

Currently Tesla supplies Australia with the model 3 from China, so that’s good news for Aussie supply.

2022 is going to be a big year for Tesla, their two existing factories are running at full steam, while the two new factories in Texas and Berlin are just about to start delivering cars, Shanghai to break ground on a second factory there.

not to mention as soon as they can get to it Semi truck and cyber truck will go into production some time in the not to distant future.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Subsidies would be ok as long as some money was returned to the taxpayer.
> 
> Instead of giving money to car companies to stay in Oz, we should have bought their production lines and leased them them back.
> 
> ...



The big problem with building cars in Australia is still here, it isn't a big enough market, when we only buy 1million cars a year and that is across every make of vehicle, it just isn't viable on scale.
Toyota alone sells 10.5million cars a year, Holden in a good year sold less than 200,000 cars, you can't make money with that volume. Especially when peoples taste constantly change and you have to keep re tooling to keep pace with the change, it all sounds great and patriotic, but people will buy what they perceive as the best value for money or best looking, people weren't buying Australian cars they were buying Japanese or Korean cars.
It was only a matter of time that Australia's car industry would go when tariffs on imports were removed, the only thing that kept it going was the Australian Government paying General Motors U.S and Ford U.S money to keep them open.
Mitsubishi bailed out years earlier.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2022)

rederob said:


> The taxation argument is a big con as was proven by JobKeeper which had no trouble dishing out hundreds of billions of dollars, and then not even bothering to claw back billions in overpayments.



Well that is good to know, if taxation is a con, then there should be no reason for the next Government, to be trying to pay down the debt.
That will work well.
Would I personally like a subsidy on an E.V, absolutely, would it make me buy one over an ICE vehicle, no because I would buy one anyway. It would just make it cheaper for me, or allow me to buy a higher standard of luxury.
So should I get a subsidy?


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The big problem with building cars in Australia is still here, it isn't a big enough market, when we only buy 1million cars a year and that is across every make of vehicle, it just isn't viable on scale.
> Toyota alone sells 10.5million cars a year, Holden in a good year sold less than 200,000 cars, you can't make money with that volume. Especially when peoples taste constantly change and you have to keep re tooling to keep pace with the change, it all sounds great and patriotic, but people will buy what they perceive as the best value for money or best looking, people weren't buying Australian cars they were buying Japanese or Korean cars.
> It was only a matter of time that Australia's car industry would go when tariffs on imports were removed, the only thing that kept it going was the Australian Government paying General Motors U.S and Ford U.S money to keep them open.
> Mitsubishi bailed out years earlier.
> ...



I agree, take Teslas plan to build a new factory in shanghai for example.

might makes sense to build the factory in China and export 20% of the out put into Australia/NZ, and sell the other 80% in China, rather than build the factory here and export 80% of the out put into China, keeping only 20% here.

the 20/80 (it’s probably more like 5/95) ratio alone  makes it more efficient to have the factory in China, but when you factor in all the other savings of building cars in China rather than Australia, it just doesn’t make sense.

but there are businesses that do make sense to have here, if we focus on them Australia will do great.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well that is good to know, if taxation is a con, then there should be no reason for the next Government, to be trying to pay down the debt.



I said *your *"taxation argument" was a con.
Petty incentives do little to unbalance the books, unlike the hundreds of billions that were spent on covid relief.


sptrawler said:


> Would I personally like a subsidy on an E.V, absolutely, would it make me buy one over an ICE vehicle, no because I would buy one anyway.



If you check the incentive arrangements I proposed as options then there was nothing that would help anyone get into a high end NEV.
However, the largest State incentives at present are offered by NSW and do as you said, with it being available for cars up to $68750.
I proposed caps and progressive incentives that would cut out at the average price of a new car.   In fact there are many things that could be done to only target those on wages/salary earning (or on an income) at the average salary level or less.
Too many people think that you have to throw a large lump sum at prospective buyers when there is instead a range of other incentives that could be packaged.

However, without harmonisation arrangements between States/Territories we will find people manipulating their addresses to get the best deal.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I agree, take Teslas plan to build a new factory in shanghai for example.
> 
> might makes sense to build the factory in China and export 20% of the out put into Australia/NZ, and sell the other 80% in China, rather than build the factory here and export 80% of the out put into China, keeping only 20% here.
> 
> ...



Absolutely spot on IMO @Value Collector . cars take up a lot of volumetric shipping space.
Same sort of logic applies with subsidies IMO, at the moment it makes a lot more sense, to subsidies the charging network and spend the money on updating the transmission network to cope with mass up take of E.V's.

Rather than subsidising the purchase price of the car to increase the number, which will add more load onto the infrastructure, that you are trying to get ready to facilitate more E.V's it is a bit cart before the horse to me.

Poor people don't buy $50k cars, so giving them a $5k subsidy is meaningless, you would be far better off paying out their electricity arrears bill and installing a free heat pump HWS to replace their gas or element HWS.
Poor people will buy second hand E.V's, as they have bought second hand ICE vehicles, that's life for people with little money I've been there done that.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I said *your *"taxation argument" was a con.
> Petty incentives do little to unbalance the books, unlike the hundreds of billions that were spent on covid relief.



Governments of all persuasions, blow money in times of financial crisis, it happened in the GFC and the covid, both blew money and were rorted. 
That is what happens, whether the cost of pursuing the rorters is worth the cost who knows? It is definitely easier to chase the individual taxpayer, as they don't have the resources to defend themselves. 
But that is a side issue whether they are rorting jobkeeper, claiming non installed pink batts, or supplying not fit for purpose school buildings. That will always be the case and why there are always papers full of fraud cases.
Like I said we are talking about whether it is sensible, at this point in time, to be subsidising the cost of an E.V .




rederob said:


> If you check the incentive arrangements I proposed as options then there was nothing that would help anyone get into a high end NEV.
> However, the largest State incentives at present are offered by NSW and do as you said, with it being available for cars up to $68750.
> I proposed caps and progressive incentives that would cut out at the average price of a new car.   In fact there are many things that could be done to only target those on wages/salary earning (or on an income) at the average salary level or less.
> Too many people think that you have to throw a large lump sum at prospective buyers when there is instead a range of other incentives that could be packaged.
> ...



IMO there will in the future be a point in time when it will make perfect sense to encourage the take up of E.V's, I just don't think it is at the moment, like I've already said at this point in time I think it is more important to have the infrastructure installed, not have rows of people lined up to use it or have electrical distribution issue where the charging network is compromised.
I would rather see 10x 100Kw fast chargers everywhere, than2x 50Kw and lower because the electrical supply can't support it.
At present in W.A they are mostly 2x50Kw, that takes twice as long to charge as a 100Kw charger, so how many peaved people are you going to have waiting for you to come back from your 1 hour pee and meal break?
Like I said, it is putting the cart before the horse, subsidising the vehicle, before you have the infrastructure set up to cope with them.
Maybe in a year or two's time o.k, at the moment no way, it would be a disaster IMO.


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said we are talking about whether it is sensible, at this point in time, to be subsidising the cost of an E.V .



Is forgoing NEV taxes the same as a subsidy?
It's a bit semantic, but many taxes are discretionary and put in place for a specific purpose.  Given NEVs are a benefit to society it makes sense to make them more affordable,  But you do not need to pay a subsidy when you can instead keep the purchase price down.
The point I made about targeting grants or rebates to lower income earners is that this cohort will save on fuel costs, but spend those savings on items that attract GST, and they will do that for years to come.  


sptrawler said:


> IMO there will in the future be a point in time when it will make perfect sense to encourage the take up of E.V's, I just don't think it is at the moment, like I've already said at this point in time I think it is more important to have the infrastructure installed, not have rows of people lined up to use it or have electrical distribution issue where the charging network is compromised.



You and I are mostly on the same page on EVs so I am just trying to flesh out counterpoints.
While it's true there are too few EVs presently available to put on the streets, that is not necessarily an argument for not incentivising purchases now.
First, I know that in my situation I will only ever need to use an external charging source if I head to relatives in NSW, but even then I could recharge overnight to return.  Tesla owners are a different ball game: they have a purpose built network to rely on, and therefore make their purchase decision with a view that long trips will not pose a problem.  
Second, people were buying Teslas in the early days when its charging network was is in its infancy.  That did not put off buyers, probably because like most people they would only need to recharge their vehicles once a week at most for most of the year.  And that's where Australia is now.  That what the data shows!
Finally, in 3 years time at most the only people buying ICEVs will be those who were unable to pre-order a NEV, so there will be no need for incentives.  Some might think I am guessing, but look at what happened in Norway, and is happening in Germany and China with NEV takeup.  Everything about NEVs will be so much better by then, and comparatively cheaper, as NEV supply chains continue to mature.  Thus, incentivisation should be a first step rather than a second one when there's a mad scramble irrespective of anything else.


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> but there are businesses that do make sense to have here, if we focus on them Australia will do great.




Such as ?


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Such as ?



Mining and related refining of minerals.
Many types of Agriculture.
Value adding to agriculture (grapes into wine,  soy beans into soy sauce etc)
Energy (both fossil and renewables in the future)
Education
Tourism (it will come back)
Investment and financial services
Professional services
Pharmaceuticals and health care
Forestry products.

And there are many more, and obviously all the supporting industries eg Transport, accounting, legal, machinery, construction, financing, etc etc etc

obviously also the many industries that support the domestic economy create value also, it’s not just exports, and these are many to.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2022)

Earlier I said Berkshire owned 21.5% of BYD, I just realised it’s only 7.7% my original source was incorrect


----------



## SirRumpole (3 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Mining and related refining of minerals.
> Many types of Agriculture.
> Value adding to agriculture (grapes into wine,  soy beans into soy sauce etc)
> Energy (both fossil and renewables in the future)
> ...




Mining and related refining of minerals... *as long as we make the most of it by putting on an export tax and creating a sovereign wealth fund*

Many types of Agriculture.. *As long as it doesn't get hit by climate change/natural disasters, tariffs and other protection methods*

Value adding to agriculture (grapes into wine,  soy beans into soy sauce etc).. *why hasn't it already been done ? *
Energy (both fossil and renewables in the future).. *some possibilities but fossil fuels are getting harder to find*
Education.. *look after our own first*
Tourism (it will come back)
Investment and financial services
Professional services
Pharmaceuticals and health care.. pharma ? *dominated by foreign companies*
Forestry products.. *sell that to the Greenies*


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2022)

Yes @rederob one thing for sure, whatever we think will or should happen, very seldom does. 👍


----------



## rederob (3 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes @rederob one thing for sure, whatever we think will or should happen, very seldom does. 👍



Meanwhile America does have some generous incentives for NEVs but they are not straightforward, and involve a mish mash of State contributions in addition to the federal monies (with apologies to GM and Tesla).
Biden has a Bill in place offering a potential $12,500 EV credit but it still await passage following official Congressional approval.
I thought this video featuring upcoming American EVs was interesting:

It confirms America's love of pickups, while many of the offerings were so highly priced they would never sell in any number in Australia.


----------



## sptrawler (3 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Meanwhile America does have some generous incentives for NEVs but they are not straightforward, and involve a mish mash of State contributions in addition to the federal monies (with apologies to GM and Tesla).
> Biden has a Bill in place offering a potential $12,500 EV credit but it still await passage following official Congressional approval.
> I thought this video featuring upcoming American EVs was interesting:
> 
> It confirms America's love of pickups, while many of the offerings were so highly priced they would never sell in any number in Australia.




Probably wouldnt sell many in Australia, looking at the two public chargers around Donnybrook,Collie 200 klm south of Perth, both seem to be out of service, so does kind of highlight my comment about infrastructure.
Doesnt fit with the narrative I know, but people heading down there with a standard range E.V will be paying a bit for a tilt bed truck to take them to a charge point that actually works. Lack of infrastructure will hold back the roll out, especially if there is more EV's than the infrastructure can cope with, once pictures of pizzed of people queuing to get to chargers, or on the back of trucks due to broken or insufficient chargers are on the t.v I dont think many will be rushing to buy one.
Just my opinion, which isnt worth much.


----------



## Value Collector (3 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Mining and related refining of minerals... *as long as we make the most of it by putting on an export tax and creating a sovereign wealth fund*



The Mining companies already pay royalties on every tonnes they mine, plus they pay a company tax on any profit they make, they pay wages to workers who then pay income tax, GST, Fuel excise, alcohol tax etc, not to mention the whole communities that exist to support mines.



> Many types of Agriculture.. _As long as it doesn't get hit by climate change/natural disasters, tariffs and other protection methods_




All industries have their risks



> Value adding to agriculture (grapes into wine,  soy beans into soy sauce etc).. _why hasn't it already been done ? _



What are you talking about, we already export heaps of Wine, Soy sauce, Honey, breakfast cereal, biscuits, fruit juice, packaged rice and many many many other value added ag products.



> Energy (both fossil and renewables in the future).. _some possibilities but fossil fuels are getting harder to find_




Not really, we have hundreds or years of coal, and over a hundred years of natural gas, and unlimited opportunities in the renewable space.




> Education.. _look after our own first_



we do both





> Pharmaceuticals and health care.. pharma ? _dominated by foreign companies_



There are huge health care companies listed on the ASX, take CSL for example it is one of our home grown businesses and it operates here and around the world, also some of these foreign companies manufacture here, which creates Australian jobs, I thought thats what you like?

But if you think the foreign companies are dominating, by some shares in them and spend the profits at you local cafe.



> Forestry products.. _sell that to the Greenies_



We already export heaps of farmed forestry products, $800 Million of logs were send to china last year, not to mention pulp and paper products, the greenies love sustainable logging these days, helps with carbon capture.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Probably wouldnt sell many in Australia, looking at the two public chargers around Donnybrook,Collie 200 klm south of Perth, both seem to be out of service, so does kind of highlight my comment about infrastructure.
> Doesnt fit with the narrative I know, but people heading down there with a standard range E.V will be paying a bit for a tilt bed truck to take them to a charge point that actually works. Lack of infrastructure will hold back the roll out, especially if there is more EV's than the infrastructure can cope with, once pictures of pizzed of people queuing to get to chargers, or on the back of trucks due to broken or insufficient chargers are on the t.v I dont think many will be rushing to buy one.
> Just my opinion, which isnt worth much.



I think that problem pops up when incentives go to charging infrastructure.

Incentives get given to build chargers where there isn't market demand for them, so they sit unused and rot without the owner having any incentive to go and fix them, because they make no money because no one uses them.

If instead the focus was on putting more EV's on the road, the chargers that are in the right places get used alot more, they become profitable, and people want to build more of them.

I personally on all my travels have never seen an out of order Tesla charger, (of course they would break some times I am sure, but Tesla makes a profit from them, so would rush out and fix it)

However there are heaps of still born chargers out there that I have never seen anyone use because they are in the wrong places, I am not sure if those companies will fix them as fast as Tesla, especially if they only installed them to get the one off incentive from the government, and there aren't enough EV's to make the charging station profitable long term.


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2022)

I guess Im wasting my time and McGowan is wasting our money then.
Funnily enough it was a Tesla owner who said he was gratefull Muja power station had a charger, or he would have been in manure.
Then again, as long as Sydney/ Melbourne is well serviced, that is Australia done.


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2022)

Those are the Tesla chargers, there are more RAC/Charge fox ones, but as I said many aren't working and aren't maintained. The only E.V's that will be bought in W.A, will be ones in the city, price isn't the issue, in W.A people spend mega bucks on vehicles. It's a big State people do long distances, the charging infrastructure will have to arrive before anyone in the country will buy one.
But City people in Sydney/ Melbourne wont understand that, they don't have a problem.
@Value Collector check how tour Tesla will go from Port Augusta to Norseman, Perth to Norseman, Norseman to Perth via Esperance, Perth to Carnarvon, or Carnarvon to Kununurra, Port Headland to Perth via Meekatharra.
Like I said until the infrastructure is in, people who travel those areas, or who want to travel those areas wont bother with E.V's
So really in W.A, as I said, the only people who will seriously consider an E.V will be those who don't want to travel any further than a battery distance until the infrastructure improves.
By the way the State Government has already committed to upgrading the infrastructure, as have most States, so really the fact that you don't think it needs subsidising is a moot point, it is being subsidised as I posted in #5149 on page 258 of this thread.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Those are the Tesla chargers, there are more RAC/Charge fox ones, but as I said many aren't working and aren't maintained. The only E.V's that will be bought in W.A, will be ones in the city, price isn't the issue, in W.A people spend mega bucks on vehicles. It's a big State people do long distances, the charging infrastructure will have to arrive before anyone in the country will buy one.
> But City people in Sydney/ Melbourne wont understand that, they don't have a problem.
> @Value Collector check how tour Tesla will go from Port Augusta to Norseman, Perth to Norseman, Norseman to Perth via Esperance, Perth to Carnarvon, or Carnarvon to Kununurra, Port Headland to Perth via Meekatharra.
> Like I said until the infrastructure is in, people who travel those areas, or who want to travel those areas wont bother with E.V's
> ...



The bulk of Ev’s (actually the bulk of cars in general) will always be in cities.

what that means for the charging network is the chargers that get used the most will be around and between the major cities, then as the number of evs on the roads grow, so will the number of chargers, Pretty much exactly they way petrol stations expanded.

of course Tesla is going to focus on filling in the most popular routes first around and between the largest cities, but their super chargers make a decent amount of money, so as demand grows they will fill it. 

Ev’s will build up in Perth, and proper charging infrastructure will grow along with it.

As I have said before though, you should never expect there to be as many Ev chargers as there are petrol stations, because you just don’t need that many ev chargers, you need them along long distance routes, and a few around the city, but most people charge at home.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I guess Im wasting my time and McGowan is wasting our money then.
> Funnily enough it was a Tesla owner who said he was gratefull Muja power station had a charger, or he would have been in manure.
> Then again, as long as Sydney/ Melbourne is well serviced, that is Australia done.
> View attachment 138541
> ...



Check out a website called “a better route planner” it will along you to select which model of ev you have and select destinations and will plan a route for you using the available chargers.

There are quite a few chargers around WA already, it will probably be able to get you where ever you need to go.


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2022)

All I was saying is it makes sense for the Government to subsidise charging infrastructure, before they consider any subsidy for EVs, as encouraging the up take before adequate infrastructure is in place would be counter productive.
As can be seen by my earlier post, that is the way the government's are going, I was only commenting that it makes perfect sense.
You wouldn't have bought a Tesla, unless the infrastructure was there, well I don't think you would have.
Most purchasers of family cars are buying small to medium SUVs, the MG EV is competitively priced, yet it isn't a high volume seller in that market, giving a incentive I don't feel at this point will make much difference.
If there are an extra 1000 charge points in NSW, I think that will make a !amor difference, obviously we can have differing ideas that is the good thing about discussions.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> All I was saying is it makes sense for the Government to subsidise charging infrastructure, before they consider any subsidy for EVs, as encouraging the up take before adequate infrastructure is in place would be counter productive.
> As can be seen by my earlier post, that is the way the government's are going, I was only commenting that it makes perfect sense.



I hear you, but my opinion is that neither need subsidy, the market will look after itself, and I think I would prefer it that way. 

My position is just to let things be, don’t subsidise, but don’t add extra taxes.


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Check out a website called “a better route planner” it will along you to select which model of ev you have and select destinations and will plan a route for you using the available chargers.
> 
> There are quite a few chargers around WA already, it will probably be able to get you where ever you need to go.



I've already explained in the earlier post, two towns which are 200 KLM from Perth, but only about 30 KLM apart have faulty chargers, the next charger could be 60 KLM away, many EVs couldn't cope with that situation.
We are talking 200klm south of Perth, not way down in the SW.


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I hear you, but my opinion is that neither need subsidy, the market will look after itself, and I think I would prefer it that way.
> 
> My position is just to let things be, don’t subsidise, but don’t add extra taxes.



I agree I'm not fond of subsidise but, as with power distribution and telecommunications, vast areas with low population densities have to be subsidised, not with the purchase of equipment but with being able to effectively use the equipment.
That is why Telstra has a government grant to provide services to Country areas of Australia.
The market won't look after areas where there isn't an adequate rate of return. Australia has large areas that suffer from that issue.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Funnily enough it was a Tesla owner who said he was gratefull Muja power station had a charger, or he would have been in manure.



Muja PS has a charger?

Well I've learned something today.  

Incidentally that's bringing back a clear image in my mind of finding a running clothes dryer sitting on the ground plugged into a power point near the BBQ outside Tungatinah PS (Tas). Had to take a second look to check I wasn't seeing things.... 

It belonged to a tourist with a campervan. All good, no harm done just drying the washing. I guess that's the ultimate in camping generators really, an actual power station.  The BBQ's publicly accessible beside the road so they weren't doing anything wrong, just looked odd. 

Now if they had, say, a 100kWh battery pack for the campervan well that not only moves the van but would dry a lot of washing too.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> There are huge health care companies listed on the ASX, take CSL for example it is one of our home grown businesses and it operates here and around the world, also some of these foreign companies manufacture here, which creates Australian jobs, I thought thats what you like?




Has it escaped your notice that CSL was originally a government organisation that was later privatised, and talking about financial services, so was the Commonwealth Bank, and in tourism so was Qantas.

I'm saying we now need the same sort of public investment in manufacturing to get these industries started and later on if necessary they could be privatised or flogged off to our mates in China if you like.


----------



## JohnDe (4 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Has it escaped your notice that CSL was originally a government organisation that was later privatised, and talking about financial services, so was the Commonwealth Bank, and in tourism so wa
> I'm saying we now need the same sort of public investment in manufacturing to get these industries started and later on if necessary they could be privatised or flogged off to our mates in China if you like.





SirRumpole said:


> Has it escaped your notice that CSL was originally a *government organisation* that was later privatised, and talking about financial services, so was the Commonwealth Bank, and in tourism so was *Qantas.*




I always thought that Qantas started life as a private business 





__





						Qantas - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## SirRumpole (4 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I always thought that Qantas started life as a private business
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, but it's been supported by taxpayers for a lot of it's life.


----------



## JohnDe (4 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, but it's been supported by taxpayers for a lot of it's life.




Oh, so Qantas did start life as a private business. I can now trust my history teachers.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Oh, so Qantas did start life as a private business. I can now trust my history teachers.




It's likely it would not be the airline it is today without government investment.


----------



## JohnDe (4 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It's likely it would not be the airline it is today without government investment.




Conjecture at its best. A moment ago you had thought that Qantas was founded by a government.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Has it escaped your notice that CSL was originally a government organisation that was later privatised, and talking about financial services, so was the Commonwealth Bank, and in tourism so was Qantas.
> 
> I'm saying we now need the same sort of public investment in manufacturing to get these industries started and later on if necessary they could be privatised or flogged off to our mates in China if you like.



Yep, I am well aware of the histories of CSL and CBA, if you think back to what australia looked like back then, there wasn’t the highly developed capital markets that exist now.

But as I said before I am not against government incentives, I think they can be good when done intelligently, but I feel that businesses that make sense will generally pop up organically, and we are doing pretty well as it is.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Conjecture at its best. A moment ago you had thought that Qantas was founded by a government.




Nitpicking has little relevance to the main argument.


----------



## JohnDe (4 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Nitpicking has little relevance to the main argument.




Small mistakes lead to larger problems and disinformation.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Small mistakes lead to larger problems and disinformation.




Well, if I am disinforming people you can pull me up.

I accept your point on Qantas, do you agree on CSL and CBA ?


----------



## JohnDe (4 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I accept your point on Qantas, do you agree on CSL and CBA ?




Of course, that's why I didn't question you on those.


----------



## SirRumpole (4 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Of course, that's why I didn't question you on those.




All good then.


----------



## Value Collector (4 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I've already explained in the earlier post, two towns which are 200 KLM from Perth, but only about 30 KLM apart have faulty chargers, the next charger could be 60 KLM away, many EVs couldn't cope with that situation.
> We are talking 200klm south of Perth, not way down in the SW.



The Tesla model three would get there and back without a charge, and easily make it on to the next charger, or if that town is your destination you could possibly charge at your destination.

But my simple point is that obviously those chargers exist, but aren’t being used enough for the company to worry about fixing them.

So we need the demand to make the maintenance worth while, if having the chargers there was enough incentive then the cars would exist and the demand would be there and chargers wouldn’t be broken.


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2022)

It is becoming a repetitive discussion IMO.


----------



## rederob (4 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is becoming a repetitive discussion IMO.



BEV buyers who need *range *know that Tesla's charging network is the best and gravitate to Musk's cars.
I don't need range, and will today put a deposit on BYD's Atto 3 as it has nearly everything I need.  I'm going to do that now because when I did the sums on a trade in I could not think of anyone wanting to buy my ICEV in 2 years time unless they paid a bargain basement price.  Whereas presently we don't have a car glut - due to several factors - and I think I can get fair value.

Anyway, if you own a boat or a caravan you buy a car fit for purpose.
The reason we have had so many different ICEV models available for purchase at a wide range of price points is because there is a market for them all.  That's equally going to be the case with NEVs, and choice is improving each month, along with price points.  The other point about BEVs is that battery technology is improving all the time, and there are *already * *models *that claim a *1000km* range.

We all know that the downside to BEVs in Australia is the fact that anyone regularly travelling long distances will have range anxiety until the charging network grows. But let's remember that Tesla's Roadster was produced some 14 years ago, and that Tesla is *still *rolling out chargers across America.  Are we creating a problem that does not really exist for us unless we buy a car that's not fit for purpose?


----------



## sptrawler (4 March 2022)

I think that is a wise move @rederob , congratulations, let us know how the experience is dealing with BYD. To me it is a bit like investing, you don't apply emotion to, you apply logics. It isn't a case of whether you like E.V's or ICE cars, it is facing the reality that change is coming and working out when to join in.
I think the first incentives re the vehicle, will be to encourage V2G charging infrastructure, time will tell.


----------



## rederob (7 March 2022)

Sweden's new car registrations are now mostly NEVs:


These trends in Europe show how much of a backwater we are in Australia.

On that score, my preordered BYD Atto 3 is mooted for July delivery and I believe the price is locked in at $44900 plus on-roads.  That's important as BYD just announced a price increase due to material costs, and I reckon a few more will occur before the end of the year based on global market trends.  I did the sums on running costs (servicing plus electricity), rego and insurance, and they will come to under $2k per year.  I don't drive that far in a typical year and interestingly the only time I drove last week was to fill my car up (for cheap petrol) at 169.9cpl.  From July that won't be happening again!


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I don't drive that far in a typical year and interestingly the only time I drove last week was to fill my car up (for cheap petrol) at 169.9cpl.  From July that won't be happening again!



Kudos to you Rob, there is one thing preaching to people about the perils of climate change, it is completely another when you back up the rhetoric with positive action.


----------



## rederob (7 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Kudos to you Rob, there is one thing preaching to people about the perils of climate change, it is completely another when you back up the rhetoric with positive action.



Thanks Homer.
When I put into context the trend in Europe with that of Australia, the inevitability is that we will be playing catchup with most of the developed world WRT EV ownership. 
I counted rough EV demand in America and China and got over 2M cars on pre-order with delivery as far out as late 2023.  If there is this level of demand today with only a small percentage of the population having experienced the benefits of NEVs, how on earth will demand be met in 3 years time?
So my thinking went along the lines of: If the resale value of Teslas hardly drops away, then hopefully my BYD's will hold up ok as well and allow me to trade up to something even better in a few years time without losing much in the changeover.  As I said above, raw material cost are going to lead to all automakers, not just NEV's, increasing their prices this year.  So by the time my BYD arrives in July, the next lot of orders will likely cost more.  Moreover, even if there is a long wait until he changeover, I will still be driving a more valuable EV when that occurs and not an unwanted ICEV worth bugga all.


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2022)

London to extend its emissions surcharge, to include greater London.








						London Pushes its Ultra-Low Emission Zone to City Limits
					

Mayor Sadiq Khan announced an expansion of smog-fighting vehicle fees across all of Greater London in a bid to fight air pollution and traffic congestion.




					www.bloomberg.com
				



Next year, anyone who wants to drive a more-polluting older vehicle anywhere in Greater London will have to pay a 12.50 pound ($16.70) daily charge to do it. 

So said London’s Mayor Sadiq Khan in a speech announcing the latest — and perhaps final — expansion of the city’s Ultra-Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) on motor vehicles in the British capital. Designed to encourage Londoners to scrap aging vehicles with higher tailpipe emissions, the fee will be levied on any gas-powered car or small truck made before 2005 (Euro 4 Standard) and any diesel car or small truck manufactured before 2014 (Euro 6 standard). The city estimates that could equal 135,000 vehicles on an average day.


----------



## qldfrog (7 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> London to extend its emissions surcharge, to include greater London.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Reset, selection thru money under a planet saving varnish
You can come with your new Range Rover 6 cylinders but can not with a old daihatsu 3cylinders emitting probably a third or less..
Let's get rid of the populace clogging my traffic.and the clowns are happy


----------



## sptrawler (7 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> The Reset, selection thru money under a planet saving varnish



Who knows, the reset might be that Western currencies are trashed and a new Eastern block digital currency rises from the ashes?


----------



## qldfrog (8 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Who knows, the reset might be that Western currencies are trashed and a new Eastern block digital currency rises from the ashes?



I actually would like the end of this economy BS where youtube stars..influencers . earn millions and people are better off with selfies than actual contribution to societythe crisis we need to have..or we are dead as a society.
Please let's hope we will have at least Putin left to counter mr Xi..🙄.i somehow do not have much belief in the Alzheimer one😭


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Next year, anyone who wants to drive a more-polluting older vehicle anywhere in Greater London will have to pay a 12.50 pound ($16.70) daily charge to do it.



That sort of thing is an obstacle to progress on all this. It's politicising the issue on the basis of a rich / poor divide and simply builds resentment for no good reason, adding credence to claims that EV's are going to disadvantage the average person.

London's air is already dramatically cleaner than in even the relatively recent past, a point backed by data as well as being clearly visible, so it won't end life as we know it to continue on the present path and allow older vehicles to be phased out naturally. Vehicles which I might add in the case of diesels government actively encouraged the public to buy in the first place.

Much as I'm a supporter of all things electric, this makes me angry yes. It's upper class snobbery and isn't helping the cause.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> That sort of thing is an obstacle to progress on all this. It's politicising the issue on the basis of a rich / poor divide and simply builds resentment for no good reason, adding credence to claims that EV's are going to disadvantage the average person.
> 
> London's air is already dramatically cleaner than in even the relatively recent past, a point backed by data as well as being clearly visible, so it won't end life as we know it to continue on the present path and allow older vehicles to be phased out naturally. Vehicles which I might add in the case of diesels government actively encouraged the public to buy in the first place.
> 
> Much as I'm a supporter of all things electric, this makes me angry yes. It's upper class snobbery and isn't helping the cause.



Be careful Smurf, I got into trouble suggesting that subsidies for EV's are a classic example of those well off demanding that the rest of the citizens help pay for their new cars.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> That sort of thing is an obstacle to progress on all this. It's politicising the issue on the basis of a rich / poor divide and simply builds resentment for no good reason, adding credence to claims that EV's are going to disadvantage the average person.
> 
> London's air is already dramatically cleaner than in even the relatively recent past, a point backed by data as well as being clearly visible, so it won't end life as we know it to continue on the present path and allow older vehicles to be phased out naturally. Vehicles which I might add in the case of diesels government actively encouraged the public to buy in the first place.
> 
> Much as I'm a supporter of all things electric, this makes me angry yes. It's upper class snobbery and isn't helping the cause.



I think it’s main goal is to get more people on public transport, driving in London is already something mainly done by the rich because parking is so expensive, so it’s a tax on the rich really.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Be careful Smurf, I got into trouble suggesting that subsidies for EV's are a classic example of those well off demanding that the rest of the citizens help pay for their new cars.
> Mick



That’s because that view is short sighted, for every rich person that is going to buy an EV no matter what, there is probably 10 people who want one who but the purchase is out of reach or border line.

As I have said before the social benefits of cleaner air is good for everyone rich and poor, and poor people are more likely to live in areas next to highways etc, so incentives for the middle class to make purchases that clean the air are probably a good idea.

Also, what ever cars the middle class buy trickle down to the working and welfare classes anyway, so if you want the working class and welfare class to have ev you have to get the middle class to buy them.


----------



## sptrawler (8 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Much as I'm a supporter of all things electric, this makes me angry yes. It's upper class snobbery and isn't helping the cause.



England thrives on that, everyone in their place and a place for everyone. 
Unfortunately for most, it is in a council tenement flat.


----------



## sptrawler (8 March 2022)

The uptake on EV's increases, as does demand for battery materials.









						In charts: EV metal demand accelerated in the second half of 2021
					

Surging EV sales in the Asia Pacific region brings a wall of metals demand.




					www.mining.com
				




A 62% jump in passenger electric vehicles (EV) registrations in the second half of 2021 to 5.84 million units continues to drive an intensifying demand in the battery metals sector, the latest data release from Adamas Intelligence shows.





According to the market analyst, an 86% increase in passenger EV registrations in the Asia Pacific region positions it as the top EV market, followed by the Americas (51% year-over-year) and Europe (34% year-over-year).




The watt-hours deployed in the Asia Pacific region in the second half of 2021 rose 141% over the same period in 2020, contributing a corresponding 134% increase in lithium, 77% increase in nickel and 75% increase in cobalt consumption over the same period.

In the second half, the total global battery capacity deployed onto roads in all newly sold passenger EVs combined amounted to 177.2 GWh, 92% more than was deployed globally a year earlier.

Tesla (Nasdaq: TSLA; NEO: TSLA) continued to lead by battery capacity deployed onto roads globally, installing more watt-hours into newly sold EVs than its five closest competitors combined.

Adamas says just seven cell suppliers globally (CATL, LG Energy Solution, Panasonic, BYD, Samsung SDI, SK On and CALB) were collectively responsible for more than 88% of all battery capacity and battery metals deployed onto roads globally in passenger EVs in the second half of 2021.
During the period, global leader CATL deployed 183% more watt-hours of battery capacity onto roads worldwide than the 2020 period, translating to a 171% increase in lithium, 138% increase in nickel, and 114% increase in cobalt deployed onto roads over the same period prior.

The deployment of lithium-iron-phosphate LFP cells (in watt-hours) increased 426% over the last six months of 2020, leading to a drop in the average amount of nickel (-2%) and cobalt (-9%) consumed per EV sold.
The increasing rates of EV deployment translate into increased metal demand. During the second half of 2021, another 107,200 tonnes of lithium carbonate equivalent (LCE) were deployed onto roads globally in the batteries of all newly sold passenger EVs combined, Adamas says. That is an 88% increase year-on-year. About 56% of all LCE units were deployed as carbonate and 44% as hydroxide.

Moreover, in 2021 H2, 84,600 tonnes of nickel were deployed onto roads globally in the batteries of all newly sold passenger EVs combined, 59% more than in 2020 H2.

This also meant surging cobalt demand. In 2021 H2, 18,200 tonnes of cobalt, 23,600 tonnes of manganese, and 159,200 tonnes of graphite were deployed onto roads globally in the batteries of all newly sold passenger EVs combined, up 48%, 62% and 101% over the same period the year prior, respectively.


----------



## rederob (8 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The uptake on EV's increases, as does demand for battery materials.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was surprised that copper was not mentioned!


----------



## sptrawler (8 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I was surprised that copper was not mentioned!



Yes, I wonder if any of the EV motors use aluminium windings these days, they tend to take up more space than copper, but weigh less and cost less.
Might be worth looking into.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That’s because that view is short sighted, for every rich person that is going to buy an EV no matter what, there is probably 10 people who want one who but the purchase is out of reach or border line.



You could say the same for 1987  XY Falcon GT, or a Ferari, or a Harley Dovetail, or a Bertram 50 foot cruiser.
Its not because they want EV's, they just want what wealthy people seem to get rather easily.


Value Collector said:


> As I have said before the social benefits of cleaner air is good for everyone rich and poor, and poor people are more likely to live in areas next to highways etc, so incentives for the middle class to make purchases that clean the air are probably a good idea.



Oh for heavens sake. The folks below the Elites  probably don't really worry about cleaner air, they have more pressing meeds, like silly little thongs such as school fees (and not expensive private school fees I might add). 


Value Collector said:


> Also, what ever cars the middle class buy trickle down to the working and welfare classes anyway, so if you want the working class and welfare class to have ev you have to get the middle class to buy them.



yeah, let them eat cake.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (8 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I was surprised that copper was not mentioned!




Copper pricing is a strange one


----------



## JohnDe (8 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Oh for heavens sake. The folks below the Elites  probably don't really worry about cleaner air, they have more pressing meeds, like silly little thongs such as school fees (and not expensive private school fees I might add).
> 
> 
> Mick




and the cost to fill the tank.

It's cheaper to charge an EV battery than it is to fill an ICEV tank, and there is no spark plugs to replace or filters and drive belts.

Bring the cost down on a Nissan Leaf and low income families will save a lot of money owning one over an ICEV


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> You could say the same for 1987  XY Falcon GT, or a Ferari, or a Harley Dovetail, or a Bertram 50 foot cruiser.
> Its not because they want EV's, they just want what wealthy people seem to get rather easily.
> 
> Oh for heavens sake. The folks below the Elites  probably don't really worry about cleaner air, they have more pressing meeds, like silly little thongs such as school fees (and not expensive private school fees I might add).
> ...



And if XY Falcons or Harley Dovetails were zero emission and could help the government lower the Billions of dollars spent on health care due to air pollution each year it might be worth the investment to get people driving them too,…. But they aren’t zero emission.

Air pollution kills thousands of people in Australia and costs the government Billions each year, I guess if it currently doesn’t affect you then yeah we can ignore the people that suffer it’s affects, and let them eat cake as you say.

Not to mention mention energy security, helping populate the used car market with more Ev’s would eventually lower the costs of transport, but let them deal with the clunkers.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I think it’s main goal is to get more people on public transport, driving in London is already something mainly done by the rich because parking is so expensive, so it’s a tax on the rich really.



It might be a tax on the rich but in practice it's going to hurt the poor.

If someone's paying the tax then either they have no choice other than to drive their older car for whatever practical reason or they've enough money that it's not going to deter them and is thus pointless.

Nobody drives in London for fun after all - been there, done that and it's a miserable experience that's definitely not fun. There's a good reason why even many actually rich people use public transport - it's quicker. But if there's a practical need to use a car well there's a practical need, even in London public transport doesn't go everywhere all the time.

EV's I'm in favour of, unnecessarily hurting the poorer half no thanks. As with all this energy and environmental stuff, there's more than one issue here. Energy security yes, air pollution yes but there's also issues of social equity, practicality and so on.


----------



## Logique2 (8 March 2022)

When I can pick up an EV for $25k, that will last me for 15 years ..with a battery that won't go on fire in the garage.. then I'll think about it.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> It might be a tax on the rich but in practice it's going to hurt the poor.
> 
> If someone's paying the tax then either they have no choice other than to drive their older car for whatever practical reason or they've enough money that it's not going to deter them and is thus pointless.
> 
> ...



I don’t really like the term “Poor”, it’s a term that invites the picture of people living in poverty, which is not really a thing in Australia.

When people talk about “poor people”, they are really just talking about people in the Welfare Class or lower working class, people in these two classes are already largely supported by the Middle class, they will never pay enough tax in their lives to offset the government services they consume.

So it does seem a bit crazy to me that when there is a new tech than could be helping to introduce a better standard of living across the board, that any government incentive to help speed up the uptake is seen as being inequality, at the end of the day we can’t rely on the welfare class or lower working class to invest in it, we need people with money to take the leap, and as I said there is heaps of bird line cases that want to take the leap, throwing some loose change at it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world in my opinion.

I think Australia’s problem is tall poppy syndrome,


----------



## JohnDe (8 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> When I can pick up an EV for $25k, that will last me for 15 years ..with a battery that won't go on fire in the garage.. then I'll think about it.




It will come, boring as bat shyt but there will be one that fills your needs.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> When I can pick up an EV for $25k, that will last me for 15 years ..with a battery that won't go on fire in the garage.. then I'll think about it.



Petrol cars are more likely to catch fire.

What about a $50,000 EV that will save you $50,000 over it’s life, rather than a $25K petrol car that will cost you an extra $50K over its life.

Your original comment is a bit like saying, when Solar panels cost less than my quarterly power bill then I will get some.


----------



## Logique2 (8 March 2022)

Everyone knows the equation wth panels.  The (subsidized) cost can be paid off in 5 to 8 years.

If it was that simple with EVs, everyone, from Elon Musk down, would be falling over themselves to demonstrate the case.

'Poorer' folks see current EVs as Reverse Robin Hood, and they're right.

As for the the batteries, they're going on fire in the container ships on the way to dealerships!


----------



## mullokintyre (8 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> And if XY Falcons or Harley Dovetails were zero emission and could help the government lower the Billions of dollars spent on health care due to air pollution each year it might be worth the investment to get people driving them too,…. But they aren’t zero emission.
> 
> Air pollution kills thousands of people in Australia and costs the government Billions each year, I guess if it currently doesn’t affect you then yeah we can ignore the people that suffer it’s affects, and let them eat cake as you say.



Do you have anything, anything at all to back up that statement?


Value Collector said:


> Not to mention mention energy security, helping populate the used car market with more Ev’s would eventually lower the costs of transport, but let them deal with the clunkers.



Energy security?
And where do you think all the solar panels, the wind turbines, the generators, and of course all he EV's come from?
None of it manufactured in Australia.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (8 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> Everyone knows the equation wth panels.  The (subsidized) cost can be paid off in 5 to 8 years.
> 
> If it was that simple with EVs, everyone, from Elon Musk down, would be falling over themselves to demonstrate the case.
> 
> ...




Not sure who the "reverse Robin Hood" is here. I didn't receive any subsidies when I purchased my EV last year. My partner and I work hard, invest our savings and decided to purchase an EV.

EV ownership is not "that simple", yet. Just like the first combustion engine vehicles were unaffordable to the masses, until mass production created cheaper models. EV's are the same, they are getting cheaper as we watch the news.

The fire on the containership, yes that was a bad situation, almost as bad as









*9 of the Biggest Oil Spills in History*


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Do you have anything, anything at all to back up that statement?
> 
> Energy security?
> And where do you think all the solar panels, the wind turbines, the generators, and of course all he EV's come from?
> ...



Which statement did you want me to back up?

Yes some of the renewable energy equipment is manufactured overseas, but once it’s installed it’s here producing for a very long time, we don’t have to rely on weekly imports which are subject to interruptions and wild price fluctuations.

Eg. I charged my car today using sunshine captured by panels that were installed 4 years ago, it won’t be interrupted by Putin.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> Everyone knows the equation wth panels.  The (subsidized) cost can be paid off in 5 to 8 years.
> 
> If it was that simple with EVs, everyone, from Elon Musk down, would be falling over themselves to demonstrate the case.
> 
> ...



The higher the fuel price and the higher the inflation adjusted cost of maintaining an Ice car the faster the Ev pays for itself.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

If it’s the air pollution statement you want information on, here it is.




> The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW 2016, Begg 2007) has estimated that about 3000 deaths (equivalent to about 28,000 years of life lost) are attributable to urban air pollution in Australia each year (Figure ATM29). The health costs from mortality alone are estimated to be in the order of $11–24 billion per year













						Health impacts of air pollution
					

The major aim of monitoring and reducing air pollution is to reduce its adverse impacts on human health. Other aims are to prevent loss of amenity—for example, because of poor visibility or offensive odour, damage to vegetation, and corrosion of buildings and other infrastructure.




					soe.environment.gov.au


----------



## rederob (8 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> Everyone knows the equation wth panels.  The (subsidized) cost can be paid off in 5 to 8 years.



The subsidised cost can be paid off in 3-4 years.
The unsubsidised cost in 5 -6 depending where you live.


Logique2 said:


> If it was that simple with EVs, everyone, from Elon Musk down, would be falling over themselves to demonstrate the case.



What planet are you on?  Elon Musk is splashed across more social media relating to cars than anyone.  In fact, some very successful YouTube channels live entirely from plugging Teslas.


Logique2 said:


> 'Poorer' folks see current EVs as Reverse Robin Hood, and they're right.



Poorer folk should buy EVs as their lifetime running costs are substantially less than ICEVs and their resale value is nothing short of fantastic.


Logique2 said:


> As for the the batteries, they're going on fire in the container ships on the way to dealerships!



You live in the past.  My brother in law tried the same arguments on me until I showed him comparative data.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

Petrol cars are 100 times more likely to catch fire than EV’s according to this, but I understand why some people believe Ev’s will catch fire, because on the rare occasion they do, they are 1,000,000 times more likely to make the news.









						Government data show gasoline vehicles are up to 100x more prone to fires than EVs
					

Aside from the argument that gasoline vehicles operate via combustion, a study shows how prevalent gas vehicle fires are compared to EVs.



					electrek.co


----------



## rederob (8 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> It will come, boring as bat shyt but there will be one that fills your needs.
> 
> View attachment 138777



Wuling minis are nowaday prized for their ability to be customised:


----------



## Logique2 (8 March 2022)

It's poor people's taxes that will pay to upgrade the grid, to cope with the night time peak of charging of the EVs of stockbrokers and bankers.

So poor people ..stump up $50k (minimum) for an EV ..or tough luck. We stockbrokers, bankers and pollies in the leafy suburbs are alright.

I would never have believed that Rederob would be such an elitist, and so dismissive of the plight of under privleged people...


----------



## rederob (8 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> It's poor people's taxes that will pay to upgrade the grid, to cope with the night time peak of charging of the EVs of stockbrokers and bankers.



On the contrary.  The need needs to be upgraded because of the high level of renewables it must increasingly accommodate.
EV charging will be a blessing as windpower won't need to be curtailed of an evening.


Logique2 said:


> So poor people ..stump up $50k (minimum) for an EV ..or tough luck. We stockbrokers, bankers and pollies in the leafy suburbs are alright.  I would never have believed that Rederob would be such an elitist, and so dismissive of the plight of under privleged people...



First, I stumped up under $47K and cheaper models are coming. 
Far from elitist, I have been a self funded retiree for the past 7 years and this will be my first new car since then.  I did the maths.  Buying now won't get me caught in the frenzy for EVs that will come to our shores in a few years time.  When that happens I would be lucky to get 10% of my current car's present resale value.


----------



## mullokintyre (8 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> If it’s the air pollution statement you want information on, here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, firstly the study is quoting figures from studies varying from 2006 to 2010, hardly current.
Then a quick read of the SOE talks about pollution from fires, and a high level of PM causing  problems. As they don't define PM, I am going to take a guess and suggest it is particulate matter, which comes not only from diesel  ICE engines, but from bushfires, people who burn wood for heating , dust storms,  smoke from the 2 million plus smokers , all vehicles that use roads, train wheels, and a few other things.
Modern petrol engines produce very little PM's, and with the introduction of DPF filters on diesel cars and trucks, that part of it has been drastically reduced.
the introduction of EV's wlll not make as big a difference as you suggest.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (8 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Which statement did you want me to back up?
> 
> Yes some of the renewable energy equipment is manufactured overseas, but once it’s installed it’s here producing for a very long time, we don’t have to rely on weekly imports which are subject to interruptions and wild price fluctuations.



I would suggest that the vast majority of stuff is made overseas.

As for being subject to interruptions and wild price fluctuations, have you not noticed the wild fluctuations in both wind and solar supply, both on a diurnal bases and a seasonal basis?.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I would suggest that the vast majority of stuff is made overseas.
> 
> As for being subject to interruptions and wild price fluctuations, have you not noticed the wild fluctuations in both wind and solar supply, both on a diurnal bases and a seasonal basis?.
> Mick



Fortescue metals are actually building a solar panel factory here in Australia.

Wind and solar can be irregular, but it can be backed up by batteries, pumped hydro and gas,… hell you could even back it up with oil burning power plants if you want and it would still be better than burning 100% oil as we pretty much do now.

If there was an embargo on Australia, our installed electricity capacity would continue generating indefinitely, where as oil shipments wouldn’t, surely you can see the difference between importing equipment and importing the actual fuel.









						Fortescue announces 1 GW solar PV module factory in Australia
					

Fortescue Future Industries has revealed plans to develop a 1 GW solar PV module manufacturing plant in Australia, after confirming that it has acquired a 60% stake in Netherlands-based renewable energy specialist High yield Energy Technologies Group.




					www.pv-magazine.com


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, firstly the study is quoting figures from studies varying from 2006 to 2010, hardly current.
> Then a quick read of the SOE talks about pollution from fires, and a high level of PM causing  problems. As they don't define PM, I am going to take a guess and suggest it is particulate matter, which comes not only from diesel  ICE engines, but from bushfires, people who burn wood for heating , dust storms,  smoke from the 2 million plus smokers , all vehicles that use roads, train wheels, and a few other things.
> Modern petrol engines produce very little PM's, and with the introduction of DPF filters on diesel cars and trucks, that part of it has been drastically reduced.
> the introduction of EV's wlll not make as big a difference as you suggest.
> Mick



When I lived in Sydney, my suburb had a view over greater Sydney, and Easter long week end the sky would always clear up, and reveal how much smog we live with every other day, if you don’t think that a massive chunk of that pollution is coming from vehicles burning oil I don’t think you are being intellectually honest.

I also spend a bit of time in LA each year, the air looks like soup sometimes, and they often request people to avoid using their cars on some days, yet the sky’s also cleared up during the lockdowns.


----------



## Smurf1976 (8 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> So it does seem a bit crazy to me that when there is a new tech than could be helping to introduce a better standard of living across the board, that any government incentive to help speed up the uptake is seen as being inequality



If the solution to the problem of ICE's is simply to force people to stop driving then that's a shockingly bad solution in my view.

There's simply no necessary reason why the introduction of EV's needs to be used as a tool to drive a further wedge between the haves and the have not's.

Bearing in mind that in the London context people like police, teachers, nurses and so on are in the category of being relatively poor. This isn't about the poor as in homeless of unemployed, just anyone with an 8+ year old diesel car who can't afford an extra AUD $22.46 each and every day they use it on top of all existing costs.

That it irks me is largely because this tactic of associating renewable energy and other clean technologies with unrelated bad things has been the standard approach used by the fossil fuel lobby thus far. EV's will wreck the weekend and renewables will put the lights out they claim - not true due to technology itself but it threatens to be true if politicians us it as an excuse to do things like this.

As I've said many times in regard to the climate change issue - the surest way to ensure it doesn't get fixed is to tie the solutions to it to unrelated things. All that does is build resistance. 

None of that's an argument against EV's, it's simply an argument against hitting those who can't afford one for the sake of nastiness. Simply phase in EV's in and orderly manner, there's no need to be whacking anyone over the head in order to do it.


----------



## Value Collector (8 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> If the solution to the problem of ICE's is simply to force people to stop driving then that's a shockingly bad solution in my view.
> 
> There's simply no necessary reason why the introduction of EV's needs to be used as a tool to drive a further wedge between the haves and the have not's.
> 
> ...



I didn’t suggest anyone should stop driving, but pricing is an effective tool to alter behaviour, sometimes the only other option is rationing, which comes with a whole host of problems. 

I also don’t think bringing in an incentive to get more Ev’s on the road would be driving a wedge between the haves and have nots, I think that would be artificial political spin to suggest that.

It should come down to a simple few questions

1, Will replacing Ice cars with EV’s improve certain outcomes for the population of Australia.

2, Is it worth the government investing to speed up the adoption. 

If the answer is Yes to both, it shouldn’t matter who the incentive goes to, the point is to get a higher proportion of the new cars to be EV’s

If some hates the idea that some one richer than them might be getting a tax break, well that’s just their own mental issue.


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2022)

Rederob has just ordered a new EV for $47k, would making it $2k cheaper change the demographics of who will buy one, I doubt it.
Would having several 100Kw Govt installed EV charge points, in every country town increase the up take, I think it would.
People who are going to spend between $40 and $50k on a car, are more interested in convenience, than saving $2k.
So if you really want high up take you have to hit the $30 to $40k market, the Hyundai i30 range, so then you have to offer $10k incentive that starts getting stupid IMO.
$10k per car is probably 10 x 100Kw charging stations on a Govt contract, so for every car sold 10 more public charging stations could be installed in another town, I know which I think will help the Australian public the most.
As has been said in 5 years time there will be cheaper EV's and second hand ones will be hitting the market, standing around waiting at the one charging station waiting for the owner to return so they can unplug the charge cable, will pizz everyone off very quickly.
I know some say as the demand increases the charging infrastructure will follow suit, but it is like the electricity system, it has to be put in before the load arrives, not when the system fails.
The private sector only want to put in enough to guarantee a return on capital, that is why like in Mandurah over here in W.A a population of 80,000, they have one charge station.
last weekend, I was checking out a Mercedes charging and it was nearly finished, an MG pulled up they were heading down South and needed to top up. I said wont the plug just disengage when the Merc is charged, apparently not, the owner has to come back and unlock it from inside the car.
So that is going to be a far greater problem IMO, than getting more people into EV's ATM.
But hey if there are incentives, there will be more second hand EV's on the market, the early up takers, will be able to upgrade with a bonus.


----------



## Value Collector (9 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Rederob has just ordered a new EV for $47k, would making it $2k cheaper change the demographics of who will buy one, I doubt it.
> Would having several 100Kw Govt installed EV charge points, in every country town increase the up take, I think it would.
> People who are going to spend between $40 and $50k on a car, are more interested in convenience, than saving $2k.
> So if you really want high up take you have to hit the $30 to $40k market, the Hyundai i30 range, so then you have to offer $10k incentive that starts getting stupid IMO.
> ...



I am just not convinced the government will be the best at rolling out the network, I just think it has to be private  industry, not every town will need chargers, that’s when they will become the broken abandoned stuff no one uses.

As I said before I don’t actually think we need incentives, I just think the government shouldnrush to add taxes.

my discussion above was just laying out that it can be rational to incentivise things (not limited to Ev), and when it’s rational to incentivise things, the income of the people taking the incentives is irrelevant.

for example if the government wants more low cost housing, and incentivises some companies to invest in it with tax breaks, the fact that this deals will make money for rich investors irrelevant, the point is that the housing gets built and put to market.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I also don’t think bringing in an incentive to get more Ev’s on the road would be driving a wedge between the haves and have nots,



An incentive to get more EV's on the road is no problem.

It's the idea of taxing existing ICE's off the road that I see a very major problem with.

If someone's driving a 10 year old ICE and can't afford to pay yet another tax every time they use it well then they're not going to be able to afford to buy an EV either. Given the actual prices involved, that's a decent chunk of the population.

Whilst that's referring to a situation in London, I've little doubt that there are at least some who'd jump at the chance to do the same in Australia if they could get away with it. The same issues arise anywhere - expensive transport is a barrier to social mobility, it stops people taking a job if they can't afford to get to it, and a very definite problem in that sense.

From a purely technical perspective, economics is a big part of all this. Give someone an unlimited budget and it doesn't require any real engineering brilliance to come up with an EV that works. Trying to do it cheaply is the real challenge.

Same with electricity itself. 100% renewables at any price is a straightforward exercise. 100% renewable at a price everyone can afford is very much harder.


----------



## sptrawler (9 March 2022)

That's the good thing about opinions, everyone has one and in a lot of ways everyone is right, from their point of view.
I know things are different on the East coast, but anyone buying an EV in W.A is going to have to buy one with a 400-500klm range, which means they will be in the $50-$70k bracket.
People who live in Perth and don't travel will use public transport and a cheap ICE vehicle, anyone who travels needs the 400-500klm range, as there are only single charge stations in most towns.
If you have to travel 600-1,000klm it will add at least a day to your trip, just to allow for either a charge station being OOS or being used when you arrive and someone else waiting, that will not be acceptable in todays world.
People just wont buy them, it is easier to stick with what they have.
I did a run to my sons place last weekend, it is about 155 to 200klm depending on the route, I've ordered an EV with a 450klm range, the last thing I want is to have to worry about making it home or being stuck at a charge station while some wanker is off having dinner, or worse still waiting for a tilt bed truck because the one charge station is stuffed.
While the missus sits there tutting her head off and tapping her bloody foot.


----------



## Value Collector (9 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> An incentive to get more EV's on the road is no problem.
> 
> It's the idea of taxing existing ICE's off the road that I see a very major problem with.
> 
> ...



Just for some context, the London congestion tax predates the whole Ev debate, it was introduced in 2003, and it’s purpose was to reduce congestion and pollution by getting people on to public transport, so the tax was there regardless of Ev’s coming in, so it’s not an extra tax that will make Evs harder to get, it incentivises people to move to ev (or the bus or tube)

——————————
Most people, especially the people on tight budgets you mentioned borrow to buy their cars.

Now if they know that by getting an Ev they no longer have to pay the £15 daily congestion tax + save on fuel + save on maintenance, then they can afford higher loan payments and buying an EV would be less of a problem for them.


----------



## JohnDe (9 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> It's poor people's taxes that will pay to upgrade the grid, to cope with the night time peak of charging of the EVs of stockbrokers and bankers.
> 
> So poor people ..stump up $50k (minimum) for an EV ..or tough luck. We stockbrokers, bankers and pollies in the leafy suburbs are alright.
> 
> I would never have believed that Rederob would be such an elitist, and so dismissive of the plight of under privleged people...




Great finance deal from Nissan 












						Latest Offers on Cars, SUVs, & Utes | Nissan Australia
					

View Nissan Australia's offers on the JUKE, QASHQAI, X-TRAIL, Pathfinder, Navara, 370Z, GT-R, Patrol and LEAF, the world's best selling electric car.




					www.nissan.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Great finance deal from Nissan
> 
> View attachment 138860
> 
> ...



I would say they are trying to sign people up, before the wave of new Chinese EV's arrive. The Leaf is getting long in the tooth 40Kwh battery is pretty small and costing from $50k - $60k, the BYD and Nio cars will make it hard for Nissan to move the Leaf's IMO.









						Nissan Leaf Review, Price and Specification
					






					www.carexpert.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2022)

Electric vehicle conversions take off amid soaring petrol prices​








						From bowser to battery: EV conversions rev up as petrol soars towards $2.20
					

Car and petrol prices have reached record highs, so could running on empty be the solution to Australia's bowser battles?




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2022)

Courtesy of Mr Ducati


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Electric vehicle conversions take off amid soaring petrol prices​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Typical ABC BS considerating delays to get batteries etc..and the fact the oil price crisis is less than a month old
but yes it will act a bit that way..or for people with a bit less money to burn, swap the monster suv for the car you need....


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Typical ABC BS considerating delays to get batteries etc..and the fact the oil price crisis is less than a month old
> but yes it will act a bit that way..or for people with a bit less money to burn, swap the monster suv for the car you need....




I would have thought it would be a massive employment opportunity, and as usual we have let our trades decline so that there are too few electricians to go around.

If our politicians have any nouse, they will take this up and announce large investments in electrical trade apprenticeships.


----------



## rederob (10 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Electric vehicle conversions take off amid soaring petrol prices​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I suppose if you can only afford $20k to make the conversion and it's what you want, then go for it.
But unless it's to do up a classic to keep it running, it's not a good investment.  Alternatively, run it into the ground to get your money's worth.
Some reasons not to:

 Unless an EV is built from dedicated architecture its road handling will be comparatively poor
 its wiring will be a dog's breakfast
 the drivetrain channel cuts into internal space
 boot space will be less unless the fuel tank is remove and reconfigured
 the electronic wizardry of modern EVs will not be included
 unless its an LFP battery you might overcharge and discharge the battery at rates that lead to significant degradation
 older cars will have legacy mechanical issues
 resale values for other than classic cars will be comparatively low.
They were off the top of my head, as I am sure I missed lot of other negatives, like lacking a low aerodynamic drag coefficient, that make the idea limited in value.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I suppose if you can only afford $20k to make the conversion and it's what you want, then go for it.
> But unless it's to do up a classic to keep it running, it's not a good investment.  Alternatively, run it into the ground to get your money's worth.
> Some reasons not to:
> 
> ...




This may all be true, but it may not be relevant to those that do low mileage trips around town and have another vehicle for long trips or to carry more people.


----------



## mullokintyre (10 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> This may all be true, but it may not be relevant to those that do low mileage trips around town and have another vehicle for long trips or to carry more people.



The next biggest effect will be the difficulty buyers will find replacing all the cars that were destroyed in the NSW and Queensland floods.
The vehicles will be written off ok, but where are they going to find replacements, whether they be EV, hybrid or ICE?
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (10 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The next biggest effect will be the difficulty buyers will find replacing all the cars that were destroyed in the NSW and Queensland floods.
> The vehicles will be written off ok, but where are they going to find replacements, whether they be EV, hybrid or ICE?
> Mick




Watch the dodgy backyard dealers pick up those flood damaged vehicles and make them look pretty


----------



## rederob (10 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> This may all be true, but it may not be relevant to those that do low mileage trips around town and have another vehicle for long trips or to carry more people.



I am strongly pro EV, but I believe your example is not cost effective.
To save money on fuel you need the car to do more mileage, not less.



sptrawler said:


> I would say they are trying to sign people up, before the wave of new Chinese EV's arrive. The Leaf is getting long in the tooth 40Kwh battery is pretty small and costing from $50k - $60k, the BYD and Nio cars will make it hard for Nissan to move the Leaf's IMO.



Dead right.
My new BYD on road and comprehensively insured will cost under $48K.  Compare that with the Redbook price of a 3 year old Leaf, uninsured:


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I am strongly pro EV, but I believe your example is not cost effective.
> To save money on fuel you need the car to do more mileage, not less.




Whatever, the market will make the call.

There may be people doing a relatively low daily mileage, home-school-work or home-school-railway station , and then shopping on the weekends but doing it every day so it all adds up, then there is the inconvenience of filling up the tank.

Are you trying to sell more Chinese BYD's therefore degrading local content ?


----------



## rederob (10 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Whatever, the market will make the call.
> 
> Are you trying to sell more Chinese BYD's therefore degrading local content ?



If I could afford it I would buy a Tesla with LFP battery, made in Shanghai.
Some in Australia prefer the ICE Mercedes, Audis, VW and Volvos made in China.

In relation to a shares site, however, I do regard BYD a better stock to buy for appreciation than Tesla, but it's not possible unless I were living in China.


----------



## JohnDe (10 March 2022)

_BYD AIMING NEAR THE TOP OF THE CHARTS_
_
For perspective, behind Tesla’s 12,000 Model 3 sales, was the MG ZS – of which 1388 were sold in 2021.

Luke Todd, boss of EV Direct the distributor of BYD vehicles in Australia spoke glowingly of the number of pre-orders the company had received for their first model in Australia, the Atto 3, saying “The number of orders we’ve actually received with people putting down deposits and readying themselves for delivery in July has been outstanding, we’re comfortably now the second highest selling EV brand in Australia.”

That statement suggests they’re in the territory of MG’s ZS figures, and when questioned about that being around 1,500 cars, Mr Todd said “I can’t give out the exact number until we start delivering and show our actual numbers on VFACTS but that’s getting close to the number already“

A simple statement like that confirms something that many will wonder in the months ahead – just how well is BYD going....._









						EXCLUSIVE: BYD to report monthly car sales via VFACTS - aiming near the top of the charts
					

One of the biggest sticking points for the motoring industry over the success, or perceived success of Tesla in Australia has been the lack of reporting




					eftm.com


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Whatever, the market will make the call.
> 
> There may be people doing a relatively low daily mileage, home-school-work or home-school-railway station , and then shopping on the weekends but doing it every day so it all adds up, then there is the inconvenience of filling up the tank.
> 
> Are you trying to sell more Chinese BYD's therefore degrading local content ?



Let's just hope the market will make the call, not a distorded set of subsidies, taxes and regulations


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Let's just hope the market will make the call, not a distorded set of subsidies, taxes and regulations




Agreed, however if the market demands more EV conversions but there aren't enough tradies to fill the demand, then that would require government investment in apprenticeships  ? You wouldn't call that a 'subsidy' I presume ?


----------



## qldfrog (10 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Agreed, however if the market demands more EV conversions but there aren't enough tradies to fill the demand, then that would require government investment in apprenticeships  ? You wouldn't call that a 'subsidy' I presume ?



There is always filling of market gaps unless you tweak things with licensing, quotas etc
I think it would be premature to form tradies specifically to EV conversion.which may never happen
Just provide proper education..
Education overall should be enough.and that is no subsidy,but specifically EV conversion...probably not.
get mechanical and electrical tradies who can work on solar ev or hydrogen plants as well as coal mines in the next 30y😊


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2022)

As we said quite a while back, the legacy auto makers are going to stop selling bargain basement ICE cars, this will close the gap between the price of ICE cars and equivalent EV's.
like I said at the time, let the manufacturers sort it out, allowing the Government to use taxpayers money to distort the market just subsidises the manufacturers which is stupid as it will cause distorted outcomes that don't mirror the natural market. As the legacy manufacturers get more profit from the higher cost of their ICE range, they will cross subsisies and develop their EV range.


If all of a sudden due to Government EV subsidies,  next month 40,000 new cars sold in Sydney are E.V's, that could be challenging for the electrical distribution system, especially if a lot are from a single suburb.

It is imperative the infrastructure keeps pace with the E.V up take, unlike fuel where another tanker full can be ordered, the electrical supply is imbedded into our domestic electrical supply, so an increase in demand isn't as simple as just ordering a truck of extra electricity. It is complex, it is multi faceted and it affects everyone.
Anyway, we will probably have to wait until the next election before Federal EV subsidies come in, so time will tell.









						2022 Volkswagen Polo price and specs: Cost and features hiked, as sub-$20,000 segment ditched
					

The price of the cheapest Volkswagen Polo city car will soon rise just past $25,000 before on-road costs in Australia, an increase of more than 30 per




					www.drive.com.au
				




*Volkswagen* has become the *latest new-car brand to ditch the sub-$20,000 market* in Australia, increasing the price of the cheapest* 2022 Volkswagen Polo city car *by nearly $6000 – to $25,250 before on-road costs, or close to $30,000 drive-away.
Due in showrooms in May, the facelifted Polo city car range comprises three variants, Life, Style and GTI – priced between $25,250 and $38,750 before on-road costs, up $5960 when comparing base models, or $5860 when comparing GTI variants.


----------



## rederob (10 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Agreed, however if the market demands more EV conversions but there aren't enough tradies to fill the demand, then that would require government investment in apprenticeships  ? You wouldn't call that a 'subsidy' I presume ?



EVs are coming off production lines in less than a minute, built from the ground up to be EVs.
Conversions are fiddly hodge podges and take weeks.
Simply put, conversions are false economy (unless you are reinvigorating a classic).
Then again, Scomo might be stupid enough to fall for the idea.


----------



## rederob (10 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> All of a sudden, due to EV subsidies next month 40,000 new cars sold in Sydney are E.V's, that could be challenging for the eletrical distribution system, especially if a lot are from a single suburb.



I read that NSW will only subsidise the first 25K to register for their $5300 all up subsidies.
As to the grid, a lot will depend on when people are choosing to recharge.  From anecdote in this thread it's really easy for Tesla owners to select times when their supplier offers cheapest rates.  I don't know what technology comes with the BYD I have ordered but with my typically short trips I would be lucky to need to plug in more than once a fortnight, and then on a weekend.  
I think most EV buyers will be savvy enough to work out that recharging in peak hours isn't a smart move.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 March 2022)

rederob said:


> EVs are coming off production lines in less than a minute, built from the ground up to be EVs.
> Conversions are fiddly hodge podges and take weeks.
> Simply put, conversions are false economy (unless you are reinvigorating a classic).
> Then again, Scomo might be stupid enough to fall for the idea.




So what is the delivery time on your BYD ?


----------



## rederob (10 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So what is the delivery time on your BYD ?



Orders are just being finalised from Australia and New Zealand and possibly other countries - eg Thailand, Hong Kong -  so they can set up their right hand drive production line.
Delivery is scheduled for July.


----------



## JohnDe (10 March 2022)

How did this happen - 


Tesla snatches U.S. luxury crown in registrations for January​Tesla Inc. has jumped to an early lead in the U.S. luxury market, overtaking segment leader BMW in new vehicle registrations for January, according to data from Experian.

Tesla narrowly lost to BMW last year in vehicle registrations.









						Tesla snatches U.S. luxury crown in registrations for January
					

Tesla has taken an early lead over BMW, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz in the U.S. luxury market, according to Experian registration data. BMW narrowly beat Tesla in 2021.




					www.autonews.com


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I read that NSW will only subsidise the first 25K to register for their $5300 all up subsidies.
> As to the grid, a lot will depend on when people are choosing to recharge.  From anecdote in this thread it's really easy for Tesla owners to select times when their supplier offers cheapest rates.  I don't know what technology comes with the BYD I have ordered but with my typically short trips I would be lucky to need to plug in more than once a fortnight, and then on a weekend.
> I think most EV buyers will be savvy enough to work out that recharging in peak hours isn't a smart move.



I agree with you, most who are changing over at the moment are somewhat foreward thinkers IMO, if big subsidies come in then it could get a bit crazy.
So as you know, I'm just being my conservative self and hope that common sense prevails and it is a structured process.
That's really why I wouldn't like to see politics involved, other than helping with rolling out infrastructure, that is required far in front of the up take.


----------



## rederob (10 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> How did this happen -
> 
> 
> Tesla snatches U.S. luxury crown in registrations for January​​Tesla Inc. has jumped to an early lead in the U.S. luxury market, overtaking segment leader BMW in new vehicle registrations for January, according to data from Experian.
> ...



Looks like game over for the luxury sector, and the thin end of the EV wedge is now now pushing into mid and full size car sectors.
All we need here is more companies willing to bring in their EVs.


----------



## sptrawler (10 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Looks like game over for the luxury sector, and the thin end of the EV wedge is now now pushing into mid and full size car sectors.
> All we need here is more companies willing to bring in their EVs.



Australia is a very small market, by World standards, China, Europe and the U.S are left hand drive.
With limited battery manufacturing capacity, they wont start and send cars here until the major markets are managed.
As production volumes increase, we will get more and more, but as you and I have found out they are built to order.
The days of walking in and driving out in a new car wont be back for a long, long time IMO.
As demand increases, production will increase, but I cant see production outstripping demand for a long time.


----------



## rederob (11 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> How did this happen -
> 
> 
> Tesla snatches U.S. luxury crown in registrations for January​​Tesla Inc. has jumped to an early lead in the U.S. luxury market, overtaking segment leader BMW in new vehicle registrations for January, according to data from Experian.
> ...



Tesla's Model Y sold twice as many units as it BBA (Benz, BMW, Audi) rivals in China's luxury market segment in February.
But the bigger news was their production numbers across all models for the month:


February is always the leanest month of the year, so conservatively assuming Tesla reached its last December record run rate for Shanghai, then we are looking at about 800K units in calendar 2022.
However by April their additional production line is expected to start adding to its numbers, so 1M units for this single plant is not out of the question.
I have never invested in overseas stock, but Tesla has a quality product being churned out in North America, Asia and Europe.  That's a winning formula for the company as hopefully waiting and delivery times will start to reduce for their sedans.  And although their Cybertruck wont be produced until this time next year, once underway it's run rate will make its many rivals look like kids playing with an adult.


----------



## rederob (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's really why I wouldn't like to see politics involved, other than helping with rolling out infrastructure, that is required far in front of the up take.



Latest *US survey* agrees that infrastructure issues are seen as a bugbear, but otherwise most owners will never go back to ICEVs.
These points were interesting:

_*The main motivation for current EV drivers is the environment and air quality, while the primary motivation for EV aspirants is savings*_
*The primary motivating factor for switching to an electric vehicle is access to inexpensive home charging.*
I think one of the biggest savings will be from higher resale value.  I also have a view that the BBA buyers are switching to Teslas for that very reason.  Tesla demand is so high that Tesla owners can switch up to the latest models and still sell their old models for close to what they paid.


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

That is probably true @rederob , but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work.
The ones who will be buying currently, will be those who use the car as a convenience, like you or I who are retired, or VC who is basically retired, so we can use the car when we want and charge when we want and for as long as we want, because we aren't time constrained.
Until people can feel confident that they can get a fast charge, when they want it and anywhere they want it, most will er on the safe side which currently is ICE vehicles.
That is why I keep going back to the rollout of infrastructure, the same as only owners of houses will be the only ones to install a 7.5Kw fast charger, a tenant wont, therefore a tenant will want to know there are fast chargers in their neighborhood. Also they wont want to drive to it then have to line up in a queue.


----------



## JohnDe (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is probably true @rederob , *but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work.*
> The ones who will be buying currently, will be those who use the car as a convenience, like you or I who are retired, or VC who is basically retired, so we can use the car when we want and charge when we want and for as long as we want, because we aren't time constrained.




Wrong. Our Tesla M3 is used for work, it also does a lot of country driving and now that lockdowns are over we will be using it for interstate trips.

There is a couple of Tesla Facebook groups with many users using their Tesla's for work, and a few as Ubers.


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Wrong. Our Tesla M3 is used for work, it also does a lot of country driving and now that lockdowns are over we will be using it for overseas trips.
> 
> There is a couple of Tesla Facebook groups with many users using their Tesla's for work, and a few as Ubers.



There is also a lot of people using electric scooters to go to work and using them as uber delivery vehicles, it doesn't mean it is suitable for everyone.
Are you saying that most people who buy an EV in Australia currently are normal working people driving up the freeway every day?
If not how am I wrong, of the 5 people I know with E.V's, your the only one that works, so how am I wrong?
Of my 4 children and 3 siblings, who live in both the city and country, I'm the only one who has ordered an E.V and they are all in a position to be able to afford one. Yet you say Wrong, based on your experience, somewhat arrogant don't you think?
How many of your family or friend have gone out and bought one? I bet many are saying to you they are going to buy one, I can understand that. 
A bit like reformed smokers us EV converts.


----------



## qldfrog (11 March 2022)

And i would bet Mr red or dead is WFH at least 3d a week....
Yes these types of job allow you to buy an EV and charge it on PV


----------



## rederob (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is probably true @rederob , but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work.
> The ones who will be buying currently, will be those who use the car as a convenience, like you or I who are retired, or VC who is basically retired, so we can use the car when we want and charge when we want and for as long as we want, because we aren't time constrained.



No data, so can't say if that's true or not.
I can only use the average daily commutes as a guide, and on that data most workers would never flatten their batteries in a full week, leaving weekends free to recharge at cheap rates:


I suspect most people don't use data like I do, and instead fall into to the trap of range anxiety because they worry unnecessarily in most
cases about driving more that 500km a day, without thinking they generally take a driving break after 2-3 hours anyway.

On the topic of poorly informed, this headline caught my attention:
*"Chinese EV Sales Continue to Stall on Subsidy Cuts"*​Everyone in the industry knows how the trend runs in China, with peak sales at the end of each year.  But with year on year numbers for the first 2 months more than double those of 2021 it appears the subsidies had no impact at all:


----------



## JohnDe (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> There is also a lot of people using electric scooters to go to work and using them as uber delivery vehicles, it doesn't mean it is suitable for everyone.
> Are you saying that most people who buy an EV in Australia currently are normal working people driving up the freeway every day?
> If not how am I wrong, of the 5 people I know with E.V's, your the only one that works, so how am I wrong?




Maybe expand your group.









						Tesla Model 3 Australia | Facebook
					

This group is for Australian Tesla Model 3 owners and enthusiasts.  Feel free to share anything pertaining to the Model 3 or Tesla in general that is relevant to Model 3, including any local insights...




					www.facebook.com
				












						TOCA Official | Facebook
					

Welcome to the official Facebook group of the Tesla Owners Club of Australia (TOCA). This is a forum for Tesla owners to get to know other members, share photos, stories, technical information,...




					www.facebook.com
				




I've seem quite a few Tesla's used in the same way as any other ICEV


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

Like I said,
That is probably true @rederob , but *I would also think that most of the peopl*e *who are currently buying* or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work.

It isn't a pizzing competition it is an observation, why get all defensive buyers remorse? or just wanting positive reinforcement.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 March 2022)

I wonder how long before Supercars goes all EV.

Bad for the image to keep using gas guzzlers.


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Maybe expand your group.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice pictures John, do want me to go outside and take a photo down the street and play spot the EV. or even a picture down the freeway. FFS  🤣


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder how long before Supercars goes all EV.
> 
> Bad for the image to keep using gas guzzlers.



I don't think it will be long, a bit like cigarette advertising, once the infrastructure is set up to cope with EV's, it will put ICE on the endangered species list so advertising race cars will be a no no. That is unless they change them to run on H2, but that wouldn't make sense except for endurance racing e.g Bathurst, Le Mans etc.


----------



## JohnDe (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Nice pictures John, do want me to go outside and take a photo down the street and play spot the EV. or even a picture down the freeway. FFS  🤣




Calm down, you mentioned "_It isn't a pizzing competition_" yet that's exactly what you're doing.

You said "_I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work_."  Which I totally disagree with, because most people that are buying a Tesla are not retired or super rich. Most buyer EVs in Australia still work, they use their EV to drive to work, to pick up the kids from school, to go on holidays, the shopping, and so on. Most EV owners do everything that a ICEV owner does. We are not some odd car owner that is different from any other car owner.


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Calm down, you mentioned "_It isn't a pizzing competition_" yet that's exactly what you're doing.
> 
> You said "_I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work_."  Which I totally disagree with, because most people that are buying a Tesla are not retired or super rich. Most buyer EVs in Australia still work, they use their EV to drive to work, to pick up the kids from school, to go on holidays, the shopping, and so on. Most EV owners do everything that a ICEV owner does. We are not some odd car owner that is different from any other car owner.



That is what you believe, Im not saying your wrong, it just isnt what I believe.
Your the one who started the rude comments.
You have no actual evidence to show Im wrong, same as I dont have evidence to prove you are wrong.
But I said it was what I believed from personal observations.
You were just ignorant and said Im wrong, because you disagree.


----------



## rederob (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said,
> That is probably true @rederob , but *I would also think that most of the peopl*e *who are currently buying* or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work.
> 
> It isn't a pizzing competition it is an observation, why get all defensive buyers remorse? or just wanting positive reinforcement.



Hey, I'm not defensive about this topic.
I just don't know if there is anything anywhere about who is buying EVs and their primary use.
As the US survey posted above showed, early EV adopters were often save the planet types, until Teslas started whipping ICEVs on performance and technology.  A lot of water now under the bridge with China now the major manufacturer of NEVs, including Teslas, and availability globally increasing at greater than 100% per year.
With such pitiful total ownership levels in Australia it's hard to know who would actually buy an EV if more models were available at more price points when the actual decision to buy another car was being made.
I am hoping BYD can get their Dolphin models into Australia for under $40k and for the first time show how good these cars are compared to ICEV equivalents.  They are going into the UK market, so right hand drives are now being produced, which at least solves that production issue.


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

Again I NEVER SAID THERE WAS EVIDENCE, I SAID IT WAS MY BELIEF. What is wrong with people, no one can have an opinion of their own?
By the way this is Australia, the U.S may have a different demographic and EV infrastructure level than us.
They are using autonomous EV cabs in San Fransico, so using US data at this point in time seems pointless.


----------



## JohnDe (11 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Hey, I'm not defensive about this topic.
> I just don't know if there is anything anywhere about who is buying EVs and their primary use.
> As the US survey posted above showed, early EV adopters were often save the planet types, until Teslas started whipping ICEVs on performance and technology.  A lot of water now under the bridge with China now the major manufacturer of NEVs, including Teslas, and availability globally increasing at greater than 100% per year.
> With such pitiful total ownership levels in Australia it's hard to know who would actually buy an EV if more models were available at more price points when the actual decision to buy another car was being made.
> I am hoping BYD can get their Dolphin models into Australia for under $40k and for the first time show how good these cars are compared to ICEV equivalents.  They are going into the UK market, so right hand drives are now being produced, which at least solves that production issue.




There are a few interesting surveys coming out, and I think there will be a lot more this year.





_Driving range per charge_​​_Australian consumers consistently highlight that driving range is a key barrier in the transition to an electric vehicle. However, consumer perception of real driving range per charge varies widely. In 2020, almost 80% of respondents underestimated the driving range of an EV, with 57% believing that an electric vehicle had less than 300km driving range. Survey results this year, however, indicate that consumers have a more accurate understanding of the average driving range of an electric vehicle, with the majority of respondents (76%) believing that a full charge will deliver them a range of more than 300km. This is in line with the true average range of battery-electric vehicles in Australia (395km). Only 24% of respondents believe that an electric vehicle has less than 300km range on a full charge, which is a 33% positive change from 2020. Furthermore, 35% of respondents indicated that, on average, electric vehicles can travel more than 400km per full charge, compared to 21% in 2020, indicating that consumer perception of driving range per full charge is becoming more accurate._​


			https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/2021-EVC-carsales-Consumer-attitudes-survey-web.pdf


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

I think as more infrastructure and more EV's are on the road people's perceptions will change, but I was only commenting about the current state of play.
The biggest selling car type in Australia, still hasn't got an EV equivalent, so how someone can make the assumption the greatest up take is with mainstream buyers I can't fathom.
Also how someone who thinks that most of the current uptake, is probably by people who don't use a car as an essential part of their life is wrong, I find a bit disingenuous.
Like I said @JohnDe how many of your friends, family or work mates own an EV? Or have ordered one?

From your above post, 43% would buy one for environmental reasons, I bet when they go in and check out the price unless they are retired or well paid, they wont pay the difference for environmental reasons.
The reality is people still have concerns and until those concerns are allayed, there will be hesitancy with people who can't afford to have their car stop and not get them to their destination on time, every time, that's why a lot more fast charging infrastructure is required.

It is also why I believe that only those who don't need to be anywhere at a certain time are quick to take up EV's, by the way it is strange you don't have two E.V's, one EV and one ICE seems a bit of a two way bet.


----------



## JohnDe (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think as more infrastructure and more EV's are on the road people's perceptions will change, but I was only commenting about the current state of play.
> The biggest selling car type in Australia, still hasn't got an EV equivalent, so how someone can make the assumption the greatest up take is with mainstream buyers I can't fathom.
> Also how someone who thinks that most of the current uptake, is probably by people who don't use a car as an essential part of their life is wrong, I find a bit disingenuous.
> Like I said @JohnDe how many of your friends, family or work mates own an EV? Or have ordered one?




Why are you moving the goal posts? Your original statement, that I disagree with, is "_but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work._"

My wife and I are early adopters. All my friends, family and work mates that have had a drive of our Tesla have been flabbergasted. Most of them do not purchase new cars, they mostly source from the used car market. I have asked no one whether they have an EV or whether they are planning to buy one. A couple have mentioned that they will be buying an EV in the future.

Back to your original statement, as soon as someone buys an EV and becomes accustomed to it (within a few weeks) they use the EV like they would any ICEV they have had before. They drive it to work, they take it away on holidays, pick up the kids or grandchildren, they use it for business. There is nothing different about an EV other than charging rather than re-fueling. The range for everyday work is more than enough, power consumption is less for city and suburb driving than it is for highway use.

Fear is the biggest thing causing people to have incorrect perceptions, as the above Australian survey shows.


----------



## JohnDe (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think as more infrastructure and more EV's are on the road people's perceptions will change, but I was only commenting about the current state of play.
> The biggest selling car type in Australia, still hasn't got an EV equivalent, so how someone can make the assumption the greatest up take is with mainstream buyers I can't fathom.
> Also how someone who thinks that most of the current uptake, is probably by people who don't use a car as an essential part of their life is wrong, I find a bit disingenuous.
> Like I said @JohnDe how many of your friends, family or work mates own an EV? Or have ordered one?
> ...




There you go again, moving the goal posts by editing and adding new content.

" _by the way it is strange you don't have two E.V's, one EV and one ICE seems a bit of a two way bet_" Please expand your reasoning, tell me why you think like that?


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Why are you moving the goal posts? Your original statement, that I disagree with, is "_but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work._"
> 
> My wife and I are early adopters. All my friends, family and work mates that have had a drive of our Tesla have been flabbergasted. Most of them do not purchase new cars, they mostly source from the used car market. I have asked no one whether they have an EV or whether they are planning to buy one. A couple have mentioned that they will be buying an EV in the future.
> 
> ...



I'm not moving the goal posts, I stand by my statement, you said I was wrong.
You are yet to show me how I was wrong, all you have told me is that you are the only one you know with an E.V and you also have an ICE vehicle.
That tells me that either you are edging your bets for longer trips or towing, by having an ICE car, or the money, vehicle or infrastructure isn't there to enable you to get rid of the ICE car.
I know a few people with EV's and all of them don't really need to drive to work, the only one I know who works is an engineer who bought a Tesla and had a charger installed at work, the rest are either retired or semi retired.


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## JohnDe (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not moving the goal posts, I stand by my statement, you said I was wrong.
> You are yet to show me how I was wrong, all you have told me is that you are the only one you know with an E.V and you also have an ICE vehicle.
> That tells me that either you are edging your bets for longer trips or towing, by having an ICE cat, or the money, vehicle or infrastructure isn't there to enable you to get rid of the ICE car.
> I know a few people with EV's and all of them don't really need to drive to work, the only one I know who works is an engineer who bought a Tesla and had a charger installed at work, the rest are either retired or semi retired.




Mate, you have an issue. Calm down.

FYI I own more than one ICEV, one I will never sell because it is an Aussie icon and I enjoy looking at it and driving it. Another is the last of an English built model that is interesting to me but will be moved on soon, the last one was my partners previous car which I'm keeping for a family member.

I don't want to buy another car, I'm instead using my disposable income to invest. If I had more than enough money I'd buy a block of land, build a shed and store my cars and buy another EV, but I can't. I live like most people that work or own a business, we buy a car for our needs and use it for those needs. Just like most EV owners that I meet on my travels, they use their EV just like anyone else, they drive to work, they pick up and deliver for their business, and so on.


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## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

You still haven't shown me where i was wrong in my statement, maybe if you showed a bit more courtesy, people wouldn't get annoyed.


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## JohnDe (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> You still haven't shown me where i was wrong in my statement, maybe if you showed a bit more courtesy, people wouldn't get annoyed






sptrawler said:


> Again I NEVER SAID THERE WAS EVIDENCE, I SAID IT WAS MY BELIEF. What is wrong with people, no one can have an opinion of their own?




It seems that you have different rules.

My opinion is that your opinion is wrong. My opinion is that I, my partner and the majority of owners that we have had discussion with, use the EV for work and in exactly the same way that they used their previous car which was an ICEV. We all purchased an EV to replace an existing car and use in the exact same manner.


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## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

I never said you were wrong, I wouldn't be so presumptuous, without definitive data. That would be rude and show a complete lack of common courtesy, I would disagree with you and give reasons for my position.
My opening comment wouldn't be "Wrong", unless I knew for a fact I was right and new the other person was wrong, which neither of us does know.
It's like many things today, what used to be seen as common, is definitely no longer common.


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## JohnDe (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It's like many things today, what used to be seen as common, is definitely no longer common.




Yes, you are correct.


----------



## rederob (11 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes, you are correct.



The above is a bit like watching a tennis match between @JohnDe and @sptrawler:  The service is called out by the lines person, to be overruled by the chair umpire, who is overruled on appeal to Hawke eye, so the server smashes his racquet on the ground, which bounces into the face of the receiver who retires hurt, causing the server to be disqualified.
Who won?


----------



## rederob (11 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I am hoping BYD can get their Dolphin models into Australia for under $40k and for the first time show how good these cars are compared to ICEV equivalents. They are going into the UK market, so right hand drives are now being produced, which at least solves that production issue.



My YouTube suggestions of what to watch next threw this one to me:

I don't think enough will arrive to be called a "game changer," but at least it will put EVs into a price category that is affordable to the average wage earner.
Now all we need is GM to upgrade the Wuling Mini to our safety standards and get it here so we can have an offering under $20K.


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## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

rederob said:


> My YouTube suggestions of what to watch next threw this one to me:
> 
> I don't think enough will arrive to be called a "game changer," but at least it will put EVs into a price category that is affordable to the average wage earner.
> Now all we need is GM to upgrade the Wuling Mini to our safety standards and get it here so we can have an offering under $20K.



That would be perfect for the daughter, she does about 5,000klm/year, only travels locally in Perth, if she comes to Mandurah she leaves the car at the station in Perth and catches the train.
The house has 6.6Kw of solar on the roof, getting the 7cents feed in tariff, that car would work absolutely brilliantly for her and the grandkids.
Her 2009 Hyundai i30 is walking on thin ice, I've just had to replace the right rear window winding motor. 🤣
Which brings me to another point, why not go back to manual window winders on these cheap cars, cheap electric switches, motors and mechanisms isn't a plus for putting windows up and down IMO.


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## mullokintyre (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Which brings me to another point, why not go back to manual window winders on these cheap cars, cheap electric switches, motors and mechanisms isn't a plus for putting windows up and down IMO.



I doubt many of the modern generation would know how to work a manual window winder.
Mick


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## Value Collector (11 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is probably true @rederob , but I would also think that most of the people who are currently buying or own an electric vehicle, are those who don't use a car as an essential component of their life e.g for work.
> The ones who will be buying currently, will be those who use the car as a convenience, like you or I who are retired, or VC who is basically retired, so we can use the car when we want and charge when we want and for as long as we want, because we aren't time constrained.
> Until people can feel confident that they can get a fast charge, when they want it and anywhere they want it, most will er on the safe side which currently is ICE vehicles.
> That is why I keep going back to the rollout of infrastructure, the same as only owners of houses will be the only ones to install a 7.5Kw fast charger, a tenant wont, therefore a tenant will want to know there are fast chargers in their neighborhood. Also they wont want to drive to it then have to line up in a queue.



I don’t know about that, I would think the majority of people that rely on their cars for work would still be doing less than 500km per day, so charging at home and starting with a full battery each day would be perfect for them.

And the more they drive the better off they are with an EV, because they would save hours each year of time they normally have to spend refueling.

even if there was the odd day you drove more than the cars range, you might only have to stop some where through out your day for as little as 3mins to pick up 10% or so to get home.


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## qldfrog (11 March 2022)

As this is an EV thread, let's get back to EVs for a sec.
The 26 millions of Australians are brainwashed and pushed in thinking that ICEs are dead andwe all need to go back to lithium battery cars..as they will be the only options and will save the planet.
Good summary?
Now,i have a decent exposure to the world,you know, what's behind the sea. It does exist....
So currently in latin America :
Cars are obviously needed here, and there is NO WAY rhey will use EV in any major way in the next 2 decades.
Power is intermittent, tend to grill appliance regularily, cars are patched up,and when you earn $2 an hour for the rich countries,you are not going to buy a tesla or even a byd...
So from US Mexican borders to the tip of ushuya...no EV for the next generation..yet they will drive more and more cars.
Indian continent, Africa....same same...
Even China.....
Plenty of electric scooters,EV  busses taxis .but the rising middle class is getting cars.  And they are all small ICE. Mr XI is not going to anger 1.5 billion of his people because of CO2 supposedly warming the planet,
Something 1.2 billions Chinese freezing 6m a year would actually like....
I doubt that more than 20% of the world can even think of EV for any substantial portion of their fleet.
It could be worthwhile for Australia to take a break there.
Anyway,always remember the old dying first world is just a small part of our world and there are more important things for the planet than opening lithium mines
Population demography, deforestation, waste management, water access...more than a look at my "woke me" Tesla


----------



## sptrawler (11 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t know about that, I would think the majority of people that rely on their cars for work would still be doing less than 500km per day, so charging at home and starting with a full battery each day would be perfect for them.
> 
> And the more they drive the better off they are with an EV, because they would save hours each year of time they normally have to spend refueling.
> 
> even if there was the odd day you drove more than the cars range, you might only have to stop some where through out your day for as little as 3mins to pick up 10% or so to get home.



I agree, but  people who are in debt up to their ears arent going to be early adopters, if they require the car to keep their job, they will stick with an ice car.


----------



## Value Collector (12 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I agree, but  people who are in debt up to their ears arent going to be early adopters, if they require the car to keep their job, they will stick with an ice car.



I agree current Electric models are more expensive than the cheapest ICE, but a lot of people are already buying expensive ICE cars anyway, for them the transition would be easy.

Also, the more a person drives the higher their fuel and maintenance costs each month and hassle of refuelling, So if someone is driving long distances daily commuting to work, the cheaper the EV option becomes they may even be able to borrow an extra $30,000 for the EV and still have lower monthly expenses than if they bought an ICE car depending on how far you drive.


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## sptrawler (12 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I agree current Electric models are more expensive than the cheapest ICE, but a lot of people are already buying expensive ICE cars anyway, for them the transition would be easy.
> 
> Also, the more a person drives the higher their fuel and maintenance costs each month and hassle of refuelling, So if someone is driving long distances daily commuting to work, the cheaper the EV option becomes they may even be able to borrow an extra $30,000 for the EV and still have lower monthly expenses than if they bought an ICE car depending on how far you drive.



Range anxiety is still an issue, whether it is  a problem or not doesnt matter, people can get a cheaper car that doesnt have range anxiety and costs half the price.
The car I just ordered is costing $67k I could have bought it in Ice for $33k, the difference is a $hit load of fuel.


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## Value Collector (12 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Range anxiety is still an issue, whether it is  a problem or not doesnt matter, people can get a cheaper car that doesnt have range anxiety and costs half the price.
> The car I just ordered is costing $67k I could have bought it in Ice for $33k, the difference is a $hit load of fuel.



Range Anxiety is for people that don’t actually own electric cars, haha.

It’s one of those problems that’s invented in the minds of the inexperienced and people ignorant of the actual realities.

it’s sister conditions is charging time anxiety.

The truth of the situation in most cases is that it will be petrol cars that find them selves running low on range most of the time, because the EV will begin the day with a full battery, but the petrol car will be steadily marching towards empty all the time until the owner notices and makes a special stop some where.

The ignorant ICE owner with charging time anxiety also thinks he is saving time by refuelling with petrol which only takes 10mins meanwhile the Ev owner only spends 20 seconds plugging in.

it’s like every fear ICE owners have about making the switch is actually the exact opposite in reality.
Are there people with unique situations the make Ev’s not an option? Yes of course, but much less than you would think.


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## sptrawler (12 March 2022)

I think people will change, wben it suits them and fits with their financial circumstances, it really is their business.


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## Smurf1976 (12 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Range Anxiety is for people that don’t actually own electric cars, haha.
> 
> It’s one of those problems that’s invented in the minds of the inexperienced and people ignorant of the actual realities.



Looking purely at my own situation:

I've driven the same ICE around most of Australia except Qld and NT. At no time was obtaining fuel a problem or requiring of any particular effort.

Only time I've ever encountered an issue with fuel anywhere was in the UK and even that was just a volume purchase limit that was more than sufficient in practice. Was a £40 limit from memory. That said, well something like a war could change that obviously. I mean if Russia ever got offside with the West for example.....  

Vast majority of my life, cars have been parked outside in the open indeed the current house is the first one I've lived in as an adult where that isn't the case, there's a garage.

That latter point wouldn't be particularly unusual. I haven't seen any figures on it but the portion of cars that would be parked in a garage to which electricity is available, or could be easily made available, would be a long way below 100%. Those who can will charge when parked but the portion who rely on public chargers isn't going to be significant, there's an awful lot of cars that are parked on the street or an open driveway.

Public charging facilities are a business opportunity here, noting that existing service stations aren't necessarily well suited as locations.


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## sptrawler (12 March 2022)

So when are you picking up an EV @Smurf1976 ? It may well compliment the house battery.


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## Smurf1976 (12 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So when are you picking up an EV @Smurf1976 ?



Picking it up sounds rather heavy.....

OK, poor humour aside the short answer is when I need a new car then I'll buy what makes sense at the time. I'd prefer that to be an EV but depends what's actually available at the time. 2025 possibly....

Noting that as a method of transport I actually use walking more than driving anyway, both in frequency and in terms of distance, so not a big issue there. Walking is mostly good for health.


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## Value Collector (12 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Looking purely at my own situation:
> 
> I've driven the same ICE around most of Australia except Qld and NT. At no time was obtaining fuel a problem or requiring of any particular effort.
> 
> ...



As I said there will be some people with unique situations eg wanting to drive to remote locations regularly, but that’s not the norm.

saying that though, Tesla chargers can be placed outside in your driveway or attached to the side of your house if you park out side in an open driveway or car port, and the cable can be quite long to service multiple cars.


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## mullokintyre (12 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> As this is an EV thread, let's get back to EVs for a sec.
> The 26 millions of Australians are brainwashed and pushed in thinking that ICEs are dead andwe all need to go back to lithium battery cars..as they will be the only options and will save the planet.
> Good summary?
> Now,i have a decent exposure to the world,you know, what's behind the sea. It does exist....
> ...



These countries will end up like Cuba from the 70's onwards.
The west banned trade with Cuba so they had no access to used cars.
The cubans spent a lot of ingenuity keeping those old bangers going for years beyond their usefull life.
Because there will be no western manufacturers of ICE engined cars, these countries will have no ready supply, hence will rely on keeping old ICE engines going for years. The infrastructure and electricity supply is just not there(yet) to allow them to use EV's, even if these poorer countries could afford them.
I guess it may provide a supply for the "grey" market.
So many Japanese cars which are a statuary write off after ten years, end up in Pacific Island countries as well as African countries.
Perhaps they will find their way into South America as well.
Mick


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## qldfrog (12 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> These countries will end up like Cuba from the 70's onwards.
> The west banned trade with Cuba so they had no access to used cars.
> The cubans spent a lot of ingenuity keeping those old bangers going for years beyond their usefull life.
> Because there will be no western manufacturers of ICE engined cars, these countries will have no ready supply, hence will rely on keeping old ICE engines going for years. The infrastructure and electricity supply is just not there(yet) to allow them to use EV's, even if these poorer countries could afford them.
> ...



I think you underestimate the commercial awareness of chinese and india companies, and if they can be smart, local partners of US and European brands with relocated factory lines


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## mullokintyre (12 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I think you underestimate the commercial awareness of chinese and india companies, and if they can be smart, local partners of US and European brands with relocated factory lines



So you are suggesting that China and India will keep producing ICE engined cars in relocated US and European factories for export those countries without the infrastructure to support a large EV fleet?
Mick


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## rederob (12 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> The 26 millions of Australians are brainwashed and pushed in thinking that ICEs are dead andwe all need to go back to lithium battery cars..as they will be the only options and will save the planet.



Not really as Hydrogen may well take over from BEVs


qldfrog said:


> So currently in latin America :
> Cars are obviously needed here, and there is NO WAY rhey will use EV in any major way in the next 2 decades.



But EVs in Brazil are selling better than EVs in Australia.


qldfrog said:


> Indian continent, Africa....same same...
> Even China.....



Not good guesses.  Tata are making NEVS in India and China is only second to Norway in NEV adoption.


qldfrog said:


> Mr XI is not going to anger 1.5 billion of his people because of CO2 supposedly warming the planet,
> Something 1.2 billions Chinese freezing 6m a year would actually like....



Chinese adoption of NEVs is now clearing the smog from many of their large cities and NEV purchasing trends up over 100% year on year. 


qldfrog said:


> I doubt that more than 20% of the world can even think of EV for any substantial portion of their fleet.



Taxi fleets are already early adopters.  
I think you just made up everything you wrote as nothing was close to what is occurring.


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## qldfrog (12 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> So you are suggesting that China and India will keep producing ICE engined cars in relocated US and European factories for export those countries without the infrastructure to support a large EV fleet?
> Mick



Not exactly, but yes they will still produce ICE cars both for themselves and for export to "3rd" world countries.
For the GE,VW, Toyota if they are smart and allowed by the masters, they will move their production lines and carry on ICE production directly under their names keeping the brands ..or rebadged under local brand names.
I doubt that will be allowed so once again,we will be fxxd by China as most of these brands will die to the slashing of the market size: with most of 1rst world people unable to buy an EV car, and the shorter EV car useful life.
How many smartphones are still used after 10y?
So this will be the same for EVs: batteries failure plus planned obsolescence.
A disaster in the making
The west is commiting suicide on a grand scale imho...but as we are told it is to save the planet....
Jab story got swallowed whole,so the CC one will go very smoothly


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## Value Collector (12 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> These countries will end up like Cuba from the 70's onwards.
> The west banned trade with Cuba so they had no access to used cars.
> The cubans spent a lot of ingenuity keeping those old bangers going for years beyond their usefull life.
> Because there will be no western manufacturers of ICE engined cars, these countries will have no ready supply, hence will rely on keeping old ICE engines going for years. The infrastructure and electricity supply is just not there(yet) to allow them to use EV's, even if these poorer countries could afford them.
> ...



How hard is it to remove a petrol bowser and replace it with an EV charger? I don’t think installing the “Infrastructure” is going to be that hard, especially when you consider that ICE cars rely on public bowsers, so there is heaps of petrol stations, but most people will be charging at home, so less charging locations will be needed, and they can literally pop up anywhere basically over night, eg petrol stations can be incrementally converted, shopping centre car parks, highway rest stops etc you name it and you could put a charger there, not to mention every garage or driveway in australia.


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## sptrawler (12 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> How hard is it to remove a petrol bowser and replace it with an EV charger? I don’t think installing the “Infrastructure” is going to be that hard, especially when you consider that ICE cars rely on public bowsers, so there is heaps of petrol stations, but most people will be charging at home, so less charging locations will be needed, and they can literally pop up anywhere basically over night, eg petrol stations can be incrementally converted, shopping centre car parks, highway rest stops etc you name it and you could put a charger there, not to mention every garage or driveway in australia.



The new service stations being built in WA, seem to be configured to easily be converted, they also have several fast food outlets attached, yet atm they arent being heavily used.
They appear to be designed, in anticipation, when Im out that way I will take some photos and post them.


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## qldfrog (13 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The new service stations being built in WA, seem to be configured to easily be converted, they also have several fast food outlets attached, yet atm they arent being heavily used.
> They appear to be designed, in anticipation, when Im out that way I will take some photos and post them.



I noticed a new service station near Bli Bli being built indeed near a power line major infrastructure.
Would make sense if only as a risk mitigation


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## Smurf1976 (13 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Tesla chargers can be placed outside in your driveway or attached to the side of your house if you park out side in an open driveway or car port, and the cable can be quite long to service multiple cars.



They can but with all of this devil is in the detail.

If the charger's going on the house wall then easy.

If the charger's going out in the open 10+m away from the house, and it requires trenching through concrete to get the power to it, well that's a significant task to install it. Doubly so if the homeowner insists that no evidence of trenching work is permanently visible.

Etc. It's all down to case by case really.


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## Smurf1976 (13 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> How hard is it to remove a petrol bowser and replace it with an EV charger? I don’t think installing the “Infrastructure” is going to be that hard



Totally depends.

Broadly speaking service stations are on main roads and HV electrical distribution feeders are also run down main roads. Broadly speaking because the existence of electrical infrastructure historically wasn't a consideration when siting a service station so the relationship is coincidental.

There are certainly service stations around where any kind of fast charger is going to require quite some work to get power to however. Not impossible to do it but far more $ than others.

The one nearest to me is in a good spot in that regard with overhead 11kV running right past and nothing other than grass separating that from the service station's property. Others won't be anywhere near so lucky.


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## Value Collector (13 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> They can but with all of this devil is in the detail.
> 
> If the charger's going on the house wall then easy.
> 
> ...



I am not sure how common it is for people to park 10m away from their house, but you can get a Tesla charger with a 20ft cable on it, I would imagine that would reach the parking space of most people even if they had to attach it to the side of their house.


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## Value Collector (13 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Totally depends.
> 
> Broadly speaking service stations are on main roads and HV electrical distribution feeders are also run down main roads. Broadly speaking because the existence of electrical infrastructure historically wasn't a consideration when siting a service station so the relationship is coincidental.
> 
> ...



I would imagine that installing some power infrastructure is no more difficult than installing new underground fuel tanks, which has to be done every so often at a fuel station.

Eg if a fuel an older fuel station wants to stay in business they eventually have to conduct major works to maintain their under ground fuel tanks, I would think switching to an electric location is probably less work.

There is also the option of installing batteries and solar, rather than have higher capacity feed in wires,

Eg the service stations current power infrastructure could be used to charge the stations batteries 24hrs a day, plus supplemented by solar, and the batteries used to charge cars, so stations might use this model to lower electricity cost anyway, by buying power at off peak times.


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## sptrawler (13 March 2022)

Didn't some of the State Governments put a mileage tax on EV's, because they say they are going to lose fuel excise tax? As the fuel excise is a Federal tax not a State tax, I wish they were more transparent as to how they come to the figures they do.   









						High petrol prices hurt, but cutting excise would harm energy security
					

Proposals to cut Australia’s fuel excise will prolong an already alarming dependence on oil-based imports and undermine policies to shift the nation away from fossil fuels.




					theconversation.com
				



It’s likely motorists will be paying more than $2.15 a litre for unleaded petrol within a few weeks.

In response, independent South Australian senator Rex Patrick has called on the federal government to halve the fuel excise on petrol for 12 months. 
The fuel excise is a fixed amount, currently set at 44.2 cents a litre. Halving it would therefore knock 22.1 cents off the price of petrol.

That would certainly offer some relief at the bowser, and to the economy. It would not, however, serve Australia’s economic and national interests in the longer term.
Calls to cut fuel tax arise whenever Australian petrol prices rise. This is despite Australian taxes – the fuel excise plus 10% GST – being among the lowest rates in the OECD and making little contribution to price increases.

All GST revenue is distributed to state and territory governments. The fuel excise is (theoretically) levied to pay for Australia’s road infrastructure.
In 2019-20 the government collected A$5.6 billion from petrol and about $11.8 billion from diesel (much of which was reimbursed through diesel tax rebates).

The net revenue from all fuel excises, according to the Australian Automobile Association, is about $11 billion, a figure that hasn’t changed much for a decade.
Shifting away from fossil fuels to electric (and some hydrogen fuel-cell) vehicles is a key part of this. The Morrison government has acknowledged this with a target of 30% of all new car sales being electric by 2030. (Electric vehicles made up just under 2% of new car sales in 2021.)
While the government has committed $250 million to its Future Fuels and Vehicles Strategy to help achieve the target, its policy mostly depends on low-emissions vehicles achieving “pricing parity” with internal combustion engines by mid-decade, and for market forces to do the rest.

Slashing the fuel excise won’t do anything to help this plan become reality. It would also undermine state and territory government spending on policies to encourage the uptake of electric vehicles, through incentives such as stamp-duty waivers, free registration and rebates.


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## rederob (13 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I would imagine that installing some power infrastructure is no more difficult than installing new underground fuel tanks, which has to be done every so often at a fuel station.



First, all the fuel companies will be able to work out the cost benefit of installing chargers at their present service stations as they can get a price to install the necessary site infrastructure before making a decision.
Second, the charging habits of drivers will be significantly different for BEVS than for ICEVs.  That is, the number of service stations in metro areas may not need to be as large as it presently is for ICEVs as the majority of NEV drivers will mostly overnight charge at home.
Thirdly, and a "however," the very nature of charging stations is different in that a vehicle may be parked up to an hour to get fully charged.  So the size  *layout *should be different, as an example:


During the transition to NEVs it will be interesting to see how many existing service stations survive, and where they survive.  As it stands the large BP style service stations that integrate around a dozen food and drink outlets along highway routes look like being easily reconfigured to accommodate large numbers of NEVs.
My Car, who will be servicing BYDs, has undertaken to progressively roll out charging stations at all their major shopping centre locations.


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## sptrawler (13 March 2022)

Yes @rederob as you say many of the charge stations will be outside towns on major transport routes, where land is cheaper, access is easier and convenience factor will be greatest, plus they will have the best exposure to passing traffic.
I would think a lot of residential style servos in use today wont be viable, due to limited footprint size and cost to upgrade the existing services.
Below is an aerial view of a new servo that has been built, midway between Mandurah and Pinjarra in W.A, the photo isn't overly recent as another one with a very similar layout is positioned on the same side of the road and about 400m along, the vertical lines you can see to the right of the servo are main 330Kv transmission lines from the SW to Perth. 
The location is also ideal for people travelling from the SW to Perth, from this point to Perth is about 70Klm, it also has great access from either the SW Hwy and the Forrest Hwy.


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## JohnDe (13 March 2022)

*This EV charger prototype could make installation rollout much faster and easier*

_Tech giant Siemens and Vancouver, BC-based green building firm Nexii just debuted the VersiCharge XL, a turnkey electric vehicle charging prototype that can be installed in just a few days. Siemens says it can charge large numbers of EVs using either level 2 or 3 chargers.

The VersiCharge XL is a concept charger that was developed in late 2021 and then installed in three days at Siemens in Peachtree Corners, Georgia.

Siemens created it using Nexii’s building material Nexiite, which has comparable properties to concrete, but with a lot less embodied carbon. The weather-resistant, vertical Nexiite structures house Siemens Sentron Busway Systems, which are power delivery solutions that connect to power the EV chargers.

Siemens claims it’s the first EV charging system to house all necessary electrical infrastructure components that power EV chargers in an above-ground, enclosed, and low-carbon structure. 

And because it’s an all-in-one solution, installation will cause minimal disruption to existing parking lots by eliminating costly, time-consuming civics works and reducing onsite construction waste and environmental impact.

It’s designed to be installed anywhere from small office-building parking lots to last-mile logistics hubs to stadium parking lots.


_


----------



## Logique2 (13 March 2022)

What will be the percentage increase,
 in daily grid supply charge, to cover the necessary infrastructure upgrades?

All the e-Cars plugged in at night, in the leafy suburbs.

Will petrol/ diesel car owners, and pensioners/ Centrelink clients, and the Woolies and Aldi supermarkets, be forced to pay this. ..Of course they will.

$3 NZD plus for petrol in the Shaky Isles, and they're worried it will go to $4 NZD.. It's called economic coercion..


----------



## JohnDe (13 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> What will be the percentage increase,
> in daily grid supply charge, to cover the necessary infrastructure upgrades?
> 
> All the e-Cars plugged in at night, in the leafy suburbs.
> ...




How much oil & fuel does Australia produce for our needs?


----------



## Logique2 (13 March 2022)

I


JohnDe said:


> How much oil & fuel does Australia produce for our needs?



We could produce much more , JohnDe ..we are one of the most energy-resource rich countries on the globe. 
We just need to approve the projects and further exploration.

In 2022, intermittent energy only favours authoritian governments.  Ask the Ukraine. Or Germany. And Russia.

However I'll be glad to pay a premium for electricity supply, and petrol ..so that Rederob can signal Planet-Saving Virtue , in the $50k+ e-Car ..which pensioners can't afford btw. 

Unleaded $2:00 (plus) AUD per litre btw, east NSW, 13 March 2022.


----------



## JohnDe (13 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> I
> 
> We could produce much more , JohnDe ..we are one of the most energy-resource rich countries on the globe.
> We just need to approve the projects and further exploration.
> ...




Australia has never had enough quantity of the correct type crude to produce all of our fuel requirements

_Domestic oil production is not currently sufficient to meet Australia’s total demand for fuel, even if all of it was refined domestically. A lot of production is condensate (a very light crude and by-product of national gas production). While it could be processed into fuel in an emergency, it is typically not considered commercially viable. As a result, most of Australia’s refined fuel products are either directly imported or refined from imported crude oil feedstock_​
Australia is reliant on overseas oil, and spoilt by cheap fuel. It looks like those days are changing.





__





						Oil refineries and fuel security
					

Less than one month after provision was made in the 2020–21 Budget for the design and implementation of a market mechanism to support domestic refineries, BP Australia announced it would cease fuel production at its Kwinana Refinery. Once this refinery is wound down over th




					www.aph.gov.au


----------



## rederob (13 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> What will be the percentage increase,
> in daily grid supply charge, to cover the necessary infrastructure upgrades?



It will be an absolute boon for the grid as daytime charging will give the PV farms an opportunity to sell the electricity for a profit, rather than lose money as sometimes occurs - see some of @Smurf1976's post in "*the future of energy generation & storage*" thread.


Logique2 said:


> All the e-Cars plugged in at night, in the leafy suburbs.



When little energy is being consumed - so a good opportunity for wind farms to sell electricity.


Logique2 said:


> Will petrol/ diesel car owners, and pensioners/ Centrelink clients, and the Woolies and Aldi supermarkets, be forced to pay this. ..Of course they will.



Not a good guess.  Tesla gets nothing from anyone except people who buy their cars, so the company has paid for its rollout.
However, grateful if you can show where you got your idea from.


Logique2 said:


> $3 NZD plus for petrol in the Shaky Isles, and they're worried it will go to $4 NZD.. It's called economic coercion..



One thing about the price of electricity is that it is actually getting cheaper.
Lots of us are now running the numbers on car ownership and even with no availability of BEVs under $44k at the moment (plus on roads) it's still going to save us more than buying an ICEV equivalent.


----------



## JohnDe (13 March 2022)

The UK - 

_Analysts believe there is now a significant threat that diesel will have to be rationed. Sales of new diesel vehicles have fallen in recent years but there are still 12 million diesel cars on the road, and the haulage industry relies on it._​​_the North Sea, which has been the mainstay of our energy industry since the 1980s, is in decline. Only half the gas we use today is produced domestically, with the rest piped in from Norway or shipped from the Middle East and US. “We’ve only really been self-sufficient for gas in two periods,” said Simon Cran-McGreehin, head of analysis at the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit (ECIU). “Once was in the 1970s, when everything was nationalised and British Gas would turn the taps on and off to meet demand. And then in the 1990s, when the markets were liberalised and there was a huge upsurge in drilling to meet all that demand.”_​​_Since then, however, much of our gas has been used up. Some 45.9 billion barrels of oil and gas have been extracted from the UK continental shelf since exploration began. Nobody knows how much is left, but the Oil and Gas Authority estimates there were just 4.4 billion barrels of “proven and probable” oil and gas remaining at the end of 2020. Of that, 1.3 billion barrels were gas, enough for roughly three years of domestic demand._​


			https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/the-times/west-needs-an-emergency-transfusion-to-live-without-putins-oil-and-gas-lifeblood/news-story/c4ecd88e6e0e0f959390288d6c9ed77e


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## rederob (13 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> In 2022, intermittent energy only favours authoritian governments.  Ask the Ukraine. Or Germany. And Russia.



Every nation in the world is installing Solar PV, especially the poorest as it's so cheap, so that's another fail on your part.  However the UK has the greatest capacity of intermittent generation on a per capita basis, and it's a Constitutional Monarchy.


Logique2 said:


> However I'll be glad to pay a premium for electricity supply, and petrol ..so that Rederob can signal Planet-Saving Virtue , in the $50k+ e-Car ..which pensioners can't afford btw.



Two more errors on your part.  I am in my 7th year of retirement and my EV cost is set out below:




Logique2 said:


> Unleaded $2:00 (plus) AUD per litre btw, east NSW, 13 March 2022.



Charging my BEV off peak at home will cost about $25 for 1000km.
In the first 12 months I believe I won't have to pay any vehicle service costs due to the low mileage I typically drive.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Slashing the fuel excise won’t do anything to help this plan become reality.



On one hand I agree fully.

On the other hand I do have concerns about the impact of current fuel pricing on those less well off.

Petrol (91) and diesel both cost 221.9 at my nearest service station at present. For me that's a bit "yeah, whatever" since I'm not using much of it and can afford the price but I can see that for some it's going to be a very real issue when added to other consumer prices also rising.

I think the whole issue needs to be looked at really. Starting with the most fundamental of the lot - why do roads cost what they do in the first place? I say that being aware of some rather "interesting" discrepancies, things that cost triple in one place what they do in another   , so I don't think that just paying whatever it costs and levying excise to fund it is really the right way. A deeper look at the whole question is warranted in my view. There's no point turning up the bath taps if you haven't put the plug in.


----------



## Logique2 (13 March 2022)

Your point about domestic oil production is noted JohnDe. So let's have some more domestic oil and gas exploration.

With EVs, well I won't be driving *a car powered by Uygher slaves in China*.

Solar panels made in China, these are the solar panels powering our EVs.  And battery and EV panel disposal afterwards, in 20 years time?  All those toxic chemicals and rare earths.. Coming to a landfill near you..
_"Ant-slavery.org








						Report exposes solar panel industry Uyghur forced labour links
					

Anti-Slavery International reports on the global solar panel industry's Uyghur forced labour ties - and on what needs to be done.




					www.antislavery.org
				











						Report exposes solar panel industry Uyghur forced labour links
					

Anti-Slavery International reports on the global solar panel industry's Uyghur forced labour ties - and on what needs to be done.




					www.antislavery.org
				




Today, researchers at Sheffield Hallam University have publisheda report which concludes that almost the entire *global solar panel industry *is implicated in the *forced labour of Uyghurs and other Turkic and Muslim-majority people*s.."_


----------



## JohnDe (13 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> Your point about domestic oil production is noted JohnDe. So let's have some more domestic exploration.




Australian governments and industry has explored this country for heavy crude suitable for fuel production for 100 years, we do not have it.


----------



## JohnDe (13 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> On one hand I agree fully.
> 
> On the other hand I do have concerns about the impact of current fuel pricing on those less well off.
> 
> ...




Countries like Australia have made rogue nations rich by our dependence on their oil.

We have enough alternative energy sources to meet our needs. EV's and battery technology has reached a point were we can now start weening ourselves off of oil for fuel and be self reliant.


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## Smurf1976 (13 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Countries like Australia have made rogue nations rich by our dependence on their oil.
> 
> We have enough alternative energy sources to meet our needs. EV's and battery technology has reached a point were we can now start weening ourselves off of oil for fuel and be self reliant



No disagreement there and I'll go a step further and say we ought to be ending the import of oil from rogue nations prior to ending the use of it.

Despite being an advocate for all things electrical, I'm not opposed to oil drilling for that reason. Use will remain significant for quite a while yet so if any company has a viable source domestically then I sure won't be opposing development of it unless there's some genuine exceptional circumstance applying to that location. Electric I'd prefer but to the extent there's going to be oil used, and there will be for quite a while yet, well I'd rather that be locally produced if possible yes.

None of that helps someone who's struggling to afford the cost of petrol right now however. Given that other costs are also rising, such as food and rent, I've no doubt there'll be more than a few in that situation.


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## Smurf1976 (13 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Australian governments and industry has explored this country for heavy crude suitable for fuel production for 100 years, we do not have it.



Heavy conventional crude oil we aren't known to have that is true.

The country is however moderately prospective for light oil and more so for condensate. As a feedstock for bitumen that's useless but it makes great petrol.

I wouldn't expect there's any chance of Australia becoming a major oil producer but if there's some to be had well may as well use that rather than importing. It's not as though there's any realistic chance that oil use comes to an end in the next 20 years so if we can produce x% of it here then as a concept why wouldn't we do it?

Same with anything. I won't get rich winning $20 prizes but should I win one well then I'll claim it yes.


----------



## rederob (13 March 2022)

Logique2 said:


> _Today, researchers at Sheffield Hallam University have publisheda report which concludes that almost the entire *global solar panel industry *is implicated in the *forced labour of Uyghurs and other Turkic and Muslim-majority people*s.."_



I have read this and many similar reports.
In every case they present no evidence to support their claim.
When similar reports are tested, they fall short of being credible:

Here's an excellent non-Chinese perspective to better understanding what you see or read about regarding China or Uyghurs:


----------



## SirRumpole (13 March 2022)

Coal can be turned into oil.

I don't know the economics,  only that its possible.

One thing we do have is coal, might as well use it.


----------



## mullokintyre (13 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Coal can be turned into oil.
> 
> I don't know the economics,  only that its possible.
> 
> One thing we do have is coal, might as well use it.



There is a good article  at science direct about coal gassification and coal to liquids.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (13 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Heavy conventional crude oil we aren't known to have that is true.
> 
> The country is however moderately prospective for light oil and more so for condensate. As a feedstock for bitumen that's useless but it makes great petrol.
> 
> ...




From my post, above - 

_Domestic oil production is not currently sufficient to meet Australia’s total demand for fuel, even if all of it was refined domestically. *A lot of production is condensate (a very light crude and by-product of national gas production). While it could be processed into fuel in an emergency, it is typically not considered commercially viable*. As a result, most of Australia’s refined fuel products are either directly imported or refined from imported crude oil feedstock_​




__





						Oil refineries and fuel security
					

Less than one month after provision was made in the 2020–21 Budget for the design and implementation of a market mechanism to support domestic refineries, BP Australia announced it would cease fuel production at its Kwinana Refinery. Once this refinery is wound down over th




					www.aph.gov.au


----------



## Value Collector (13 March 2022)

rederob said:


> First, all the fuel companies will be able to work out the cost benefit of installing chargers at their present service stations as they can get a price to install the necessary site infrastructure before making a decision.
> Second, the charging habits of drivers will be significantly different for BEVS than for ICEVs.  That is, the number of service stations in metro areas may not need to be as large as it presently is for ICEVs as the majority of NEV drivers will mostly overnight charge at home.
> Thirdly, and a "however," the very nature of charging stations is different in that a vehicle may be parked up to an hour to get fully charged.  So the size  *layout *should be different, as an example:
> View attachment 139018
> ...



Yep I agree with all those points,

One point to mention though, is that very few people will be charging From 0% - 100%, most people that have home charging available might only be stopping for as little as 3 mins just to pick up that extra 10% to get them home where they will do their main charge, or if are on a longer road trip they will charge for 15mins or so to get to 80% to get them down the road for another 4 hours of driving, they won’t waste time waiting for that last 20%

When people say it takes 1 hour to charge an EV, that’s only because it’s that last 20% that takes 30 mins or so because the charge rate slows right down the closer you get to 100% in my experience no one really bothers charging to 100% at public chargers, unless they happen to have found a good place for lunch that keeps them busy.


----------



## Value Collector (13 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Coal can be turned into oil.
> 
> I don't know the economics,  only that its possible.
> 
> One thing we do have is coal, might as well use it.



It’s more efficient to turn it into electricity, but with climate change threats, in reality we are going to have to leave most of it in the ground.


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## SirRumpole (13 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It’s more efficient to turn it into electricity, but with climate change threats, in reality we are going to have to leave most of it in the ground.




Possibly, but if the economy is stuffed, people will be screaming for a solution and have the pollies got enough courage to tell them that we haven't got the oil and we can't get enough ev's, so start walking folks.


----------



## Value Collector (13 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> On one hand I agree fully.
> 
> On the other hand I do have concerns about the impact of current fuel pricing on those less well off.
> 
> ...



I imagine that the low income families will first start restricting the amount of non essential driving they do, eg maybe cutting out the trips to the beach or to visit Nanna.

Then, after that it will other areas that begin to get cut, eg maybe Netflix is paused, maybe less alcohol get drunk, less takeaway etc.

atleast that’s the way I would do it, except maybe I wouldn’t cut out Nanna.


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## JohnDe (13 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Possibly, but if the economy is stuffed, people will be screaming for a solution and have the pollies got enough courage to tell them that we haven't got the oil and we can't get enough ev's, so start walking folks.




We're not going to run out of fuel, however the cost will continue to rise. Manufacturing oil from coal is not going to reduce the price, it will only contribute to higher cost.

We can either put our heads in the sand and wait until we're forced ti take action. or we can start now and prepare for an electric future. It does not matter what Australian consumers of vehicles want, EVs are here and nothing will slow it down.

Oil will continue to be part of industry but its days of being the main fuel for consumers is dwindling.


----------



## Value Collector (13 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Possibly, but if the economy is stuffed, people will be screaming for a solution and have the pollies got enough courage to tell them that we haven't got the oil and we can't get enough ev's, so start walking folks.



As I described above I believe prices rises naturally make people become more efficient in the way they use the resource, and after that more efficient in the way they use other resources.


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## SirRumpole (13 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> We can either put our heads in the sand and wait until we're forced ti take action. or we can start now and prepare for an electric future. It does not matter what Australian consumers of vehicles want, EVs are here and nothing will slow it down.




I certainly agree EV's are the way to go, the problem will be satisfying the demand.


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## JohnDe (13 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I certainly agree EV's are the way to go, the problem will be satisfying the demand.




I don't think that it is a race, the world vehicle manufacturers have 5 to 8 years to keep increasing production. 

Tesla's Berlin factory starts full production at the end of the month, the Texas factory not long after that, and the China factory is being expanded. Tesla is going to be producing a lot of EVs very soon.

VW are investing billions to get their EV production up and running ASAP. Ford have announced changes that will see ICE production change to EV production, Toyota have finally jumped in and so on. 

EV introduction is a bit like the film roll camera and the digital camera, no one liked digital, the quality wasn't there, and no one wanted a digital camera. How many traditional film camera are made today?

The pace of EV introduction is just right at the moment.


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## qldfrog (13 March 2022)

Let's do a sacrilege in that thread
With 98% of cars sold today being ICE plus enormous already existing fleet; if we were REALLY trying to reduce oil use, wouldn't be the obvious brainless best way to use green oil in ICE?
Convert ICE engine to burn :
ammonia made with green H2...works for container ships, heavy trucks power stations,etc

synthetic fuel : adding atmospheric C4 to green H2 and bob is your uncle..not that easy but doable and done, and not sure for diesel but we can use vegetable oil for diesels bio fuel

Nothing change in the whole user/ distribution chain, only at the few refineries
The advantage of this is you do not have to change much, which probably means it is its biggest drawback: no money there to be made and no societal change
The Reset needs change


----------



## qldfrog (13 March 2022)

For anyone looking for info about that:








						Synthetic fuel - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




The whole synfiel came to my mind after reading 


SirRumpole said:


> I certainly agree EV's are the way to go, the problem will be satisfying the demand.



In the same way as CC caused by CO2 has been sold as a fact, now we are sold that we have to change our car to an EV...even if we do not have enough lithium mined in the world to replace existing ICE fleet.....
Yes some people will have to walk and i guess it will not be the Davos clique


----------



## qldfrog (13 March 2022)

Ok, let's go back to EVs which are exciting technically


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## Smurf1976 (13 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> A lot of production is condensate (a very light crude and by-product of national gas production). While it could be processed into fuel in an emergency, it is typically not considered commercially viable



Refining condensate alone directly into petrol etc isn't particularly viable I agree and most refineries aren't set up to do so.

Condensate ultimately is refined into fuel however, it's just blended with heavier oil in order to do it so it's still of value as such just not by itself but it still adds to the liquid fuel supply in total.

Noting that I'm in no way advocating that we use oil rather than EV's but I do advocate an "all the above" approach to reducing reliance on supplies from problematic countries.


----------



## qldfrog (13 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Refining condensate alone directly into petrol etc isn't particularly viable I agree and most refineries aren't set up to do so.
> 
> Condensate ultimately is refined into fuel however, it's just blended with heavier oil in order to do it so it's still of value as such just not by itself but it still adds to the liquid fuel supply in total.
> 
> Noting that I'm in no way advocating that we use oil rather than EV's but I do advocate an "all the above" approach to reducing reliance on supplies from problematic countries.



I would just say that EVs move that issue from " problematic countries" to "problematic country".the one so big no ones dares naming it in Australia 😁
In term of risk management, not ideal ROL


----------



## basilio (14 March 2022)

Yet another big move in battery technology.  This time the development of sodium ion batteries that are cheaper, safre and as/more powerful than lithium iron. They can be produce  on the same production lines.

CATL says production will be from 2023. Another opportunity to reduce battery costs for vehicle and stationary applications.  Well worth a look IMV


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## JohnDe (14 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Refining condensate alone directly into petrol etc isn't particularly viable I agree and most refineries aren't set up to do so.
> 
> Condensate ultimately is refined into fuel however, it's just blended with heavier oil in order to do it so it's still of value as such just not by itself but it still adds to the liquid fuel supply in total.
> 
> Noting that I'm in no way advocating that we use oil rather than EV's but I do advocate an "all the above" approach to reducing reliance on supplies from problematic countries.




Refining condensate is not going to alleviate the original problem mentioned a few posts ago - the ever increasing price of fuel.

Australian oil is of poor quality, yes it can be refined into a fuel but at what cost? The cost will be higher than it is currently to import fuel, even as crude oil prices increase.

The only benefit we'd have by using our oil to make expensive fuel is that we would be self reliant, for a very short few years.

It's not as if we haven't had warning signs of this happening. There was the oil shock of the 1970's and the Gulf war. There is always something happening that endangers our oil supplies.

Until now we have been at the mercy of oil nations. Now we have the resources and know-how to become self reliant.

Electricity is the future. We either get on he bandwagon now or wait for the dregs in 10 years.


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## SirRumpole (14 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Refining condensate is not going to alleviate the original problem mentioned a few posts ago - the ever increasing price of fuel.
> 
> Australian oil is of poor quality, yes it can be refined into a fuel but at what cost? The cost will be higher than it is currently to import fuel, even as crude oil prices increase.
> 
> ...



All true, but unless evs are built in Australia we will be reliant on others for those as well and we will be picking up the dregs until the low hanging fruit of the US, European , Japanese and Chinese markets are picked.


----------



## JohnDe (14 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> All true, but unless evs are built in Australia we will be reliant on others for those as well and we will be picking up the dregs until the low hanging fruit of the US, European , Japanese and Chinese markets are picked.




There is no phone manufactured in Australia, or prime movers, most heavy machinery comes from overseas. I don’t see what the difference is with EVs, Norway doesn’t have a vehicle manufacturer.

We will have no problem getting quality EVs service into the country, unless there’s a world war but then we’ll have more pressing issues to contend with.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> There is no phone manufactured in Australia, or prime movers, most heavy machinery comes from overseas. I don’t see what the difference is with EVs, Norway doesn’t have a vehicle manufacturer.
> 
> We will have no problem getting quality EVs service into the country, unless there’s a world war but then we’ll have more pressing issues to contend with.




Kenworth has been manufacturing trucks in Baywater since 1971 and as far as I know is still doing so, Volvo and Mack also manufacture in Australia.


----------



## JohnDe (14 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Kenworth has been manufacturing trucks in Baywater since 1971 and as far as I know is still doing so, Volvo and Mack also manufacture in Australia.



Just like We had with Mitsubishi, Nissan, Ford, Toyota, Holden, Leyland, all owned by overseas corporations holding tax payers to their mercy of tax breaks & incentives. Yeah that’s fun.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Just like We had with Mitsubishi, Nissan, Ford, Toyota, Holden, Leyland, all owned by overseas corporations holding tax payers to their mercy of tax breaks & incentives. Yeah that’s fun.




Every country in the world subsidises car manufacturers, you would be a fool not to believe so.


----------



## mullokintyre (14 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Just like We had with Mitsubishi, Nissan, Ford, Toyota, Holden, Leyland, all owned by overseas corporations holding tax payers to their mercy of tax breaks & incentives. Yeah that’s fun.



And how many of the EV's are made in Australia?
What makes you think that the EV manufacturers overseas will not be holding tax payers to the mercy of tax breaks and incentives?
There have been a few ASF members calling for just that.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (14 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Every country in the world subsidises car manufacturers, you would be a fool not to believe so.




Not every country has a car manufacturer, it’s not required.


----------



## JohnDe (14 March 2022)




----------



## JohnDe (14 March 2022)




----------



## Smurf1976 (14 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Refining condensate is not going to alleviate the original problem mentioned a few posts ago - the ever increasing price of fuel.



Agreed although domestic production does directly address the other issue of sending money to foreign dictators and so on. Australian produced oil or condensate ultimately would end up as fuel used somewhere.

Noting that, using pre-pandemic figures, Australia's oil consumption is presently:

Diesel = 48.4%

Automotive Petrol (all grades including ethanol blends) = 29.1%

Aviation turbine fuel (aka "jet fuel") = 15.6%

LPG = 3.2%

Fuel oil = 1.7%

Other products (chemicals, bitumen etc) = 1.4%

Lubricants and greases = 0.6%

Aviation gasoline (small aircraft) = 0.1%

Figures are Australian Government statistics for 2018-19 which I've used to avoid pandemic-related temporary changes.

Now of that lot, full adoption of EV's would displace almost all automotive petrol use and would displace a substantial portion, but not all, use of diesel.

EV's in the medium term generally won't be replacing aviation fuel, LPG or fuel oil and they're certainly not replacing chemicals or bitumen. Longer term we might have electric aircraft but they're clearly lagging behind electric road vehicles so far as development is concerned, we'll continue to have fuel-based aircraft for quite some time yet.

So far as Australian oil's concerned, there's nothing "wrong" with it as such, it's just that (as with many crude oils) it's toward one end of the scale and whilst not impossible to refine as is, it's more economic to blend it with oil from the other end of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with it as such though - indeed it sells at a premium price generally due to its characteristics, most Australian crude is a Light or Extra Light grade, and has no trouble finding buyers.

Now I'm not arguing the merits of oil on an EV thread but realistically there's a need for a combination of solutions to all this. EV's won't replace all oil use, and it'll be quite some years before they even replace half, so we're going to need ongoing oil supply in the meantime and so long as that's the case there's the issues of supply security, funding dictators and so on. There's still a place for oil production in Australia to the extent it can be done, companies in that space aren't rationally going to be put out of business in a hurry.

My point is basically that it's not an absolute. EV's are the future but they'll be coexisting with the oil industry for quite some time to come.


----------



## SirRumpole (14 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agreed although domestic production does directly address the other issue of sending money to foreign dictators and so on. Australian produced oil or condensate ultimately would end up as fuel used somewhere.
> 
> Noting that, using pre-pandemic figures, Australia's oil consumption is presently:
> 
> ...



Not to mention that all the plastics that we use every day require oil to produce.  If countries like Russia turn off the taps, we need to find alternatives pretty quickly.


----------



## Value Collector (14 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Kenworth has been manufacturing trucks in Baywater since 1971 and as far as I know is still doing so, Volvo and Mack also manufacture in Australia.



You mean assembling Trucks.

If I buy a jig saw puzzle in the USA, and then put it together in Australia, is the jig saw “made in Australia” ?


----------



## Value Collector (14 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Every country in the world subsidises car manufacturers, you would be a fool not to believe so.



Let them, and we will purchase their subsidised vehicles.


----------



## sptrawler (14 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Let them, and we will purchase their subsidised vehicles.



I'm all for manufacturing, but it has to be for essential products, or value adding to our raw materials.
If we don't do that, then eventually we run out of raw materials to sell and still need to import our essential products.
When that happens the CEO's move to the Mediterranean and we become a third world holiday destination with inherent problems eg, that really is too far away, too big, too hot, oh lets just go to Santorini dear.


----------



## over9k (15 March 2022)

Anyone else been having fun with NIO lately?


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You mean assembling Trucks.



We do build buses in Australia. Full size public transport buses like these:  

Built from scratch that is with manufacturing in SA, Tas and Qld. Conventional diesel powered buses shown in the video above built in Tas.

Whilst mostly they're building conventional diesel powered buses they have built electric in SA so we have the capability.

Passenger video on board electric bus operating in Adelaide. Not very exciting, just a video of a bus ride, but still it's an EV built in Australia:


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> We do build buses in Australia. Full size public transport buses like these:
> 
> Built from scratch that is with manufacturing in SA, Tas and Qld. Conventional diesel powered buses shown in the video above built in Tas.
> 
> ...




I don’t know the details of the bus factory, but I can bet a lot of the components are still imported.

That was my point, even if you build cars here, you will still be relying on imports, even the USA’s car factories, including Teslas rely on supply chains that source parts from all over the world.

As I have said before globalisation is here to stay, mercantilism is dead.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You mean assembling Trucks.
> 
> If I buy a jig saw puzzle in the USA, and then put it together in Australia, is the jig saw “made in Australia” ?



Whatever, its employment so people can pay rent to other people.


----------



## Macquack (15 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Not every country has a car manufacturer, it’s not required.



Yes, but there is a correlation between countries that don't manufacture motor vehicles, and horse and cart being a common form of motive power.


----------



## Macquack (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Let them, and we will purchase their *subsidised vehicles*.



Where are all the cheap cars that we were promised when car manufacturing was killed off in Australia and the consumer was supposed to save all the import duties?

I reckon the retailers are pocketing the savings (as they do).

Ballpark 60 grand for a dual cab ute made in Thailand is no bargain.


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Whatever, its employment so people can pay rent to other people.



Yeah, but we can employ people in any industry.


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

Macquack said:


> Where are all the cheap cars that we were promised when car manufacturing was killed off in Australia and the consumer was supposed to save all the import duties?
> 
> I reckon the retailers are pocketing the savings (as they do).
> 
> Ballpark 60 grand for a dual cab ute made in Thailand is no bargain.



I don’t think an Australian made car would be cheaper, but if there was unusually high profits being made by retailers, you would think that competition would reduce that.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t think an Australian made car would be cheaper, but if there was unusually high profits being made by retailers, you would think that competition would reduce that.




There is a world wide shortage of vehicles now due to covid, so manufacturers are all competing to get the highest price not the lowest.


Value Collector said:


> Yeah, but we can employ people in any industry.




That's an argument to get rid of any other industry you don't like.    Why not get rid of financial services people so we can employ them in electric car building ?


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a world wide shortage of vehicles now due to covid, so manufacturers are all competing to get the highest price not the lowest.
> 
> 
> That's an argument to get rid of any other industry you don't like.    Why not get rid of financial services people so we can employ them in electric car building ?



No, it’s an argument to focus on the industries that make sense, and grow organically, why would you want to get rid of an industry that makes a profit to focus on one that needs a subsidy.

Do you really think have an assembly plant here would fix the global chip shortage? Our plants would still be waiting on parts to arrive like all the others around the globe.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Do you really think have an assembly plant here would fix the global chip shortage? Our plants would still be waiting on parts to arrive like all the others around the globe.




Very good point. I've been saying we should get into chip manufacturing for some time.


----------



## qldfrog (15 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Very good point. I've been saying we should get into chip manufacturing for some time.











						Ford to sell Explorer SUVs missing rear climate controls due to chip crunch
					

Ford is taking an interesting, maybe even innovative move here to battle the ongoing semiconductor crunch afflicting global automakers.




					finance.yahoo.com
				



So even when you build most of the car, this is still indeed a critical point realistically, i can not really imagine even trying to build an IC industry here.
Now that Taipei could be compromised, it would make sense for a non China mass production.
Siemens and Philips had some capabilities, the US obviously and South Korea
Thinking aloud
One way out could be producing one basic CPU, one basic  Eprom and the basic electronic components regulator transistors etc etc
That should be a crude way to be able to do basically everything, even if not integrated in a single one for all chip
Much bigger, more consumption slower but kind of universal toolkit set.
Plenty enough for basic needs : car control etc home electronic and  plc.
That should sort cars EVs but if we start wanting self driving laser mapping..will not cut it
I would guess the US have spacial and defence component fully developed domestically?


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> One way out could be producing one basic CPU, one basic Eprom and the basic electronic components regulator transistors etc etc
> That should be a crude way to be able to do basically everything, even if not integrated in a single one for all chip




Excellent idea, the CPU is the critical component, the others just hang off it and make it work.


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Very good point. I've been saying we should get into chip manufacturing for some time.



Cool, if you think you can compete, you should do it, you should put together a group of investors.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Cool, if you think you can compete, you should do it, you should put together a group of investors.




Huh, too rich for me it would have to be government backed.

When are you going to wake up to the fact that the global economy is not just about money or competition any more, it's about geo-politics and achieving economic and political dominance ?

Supply chain security is a real issue. China and Russia are growing closer together and that has implications for the West in that a lot of goods we buy from China might be going elsewhere.

All those investments by Berkshire Hathaway in China could be wiped away at the stroke of a pen if the Chinese government decided to do so, like Russia they don't operate by Western rules, they have their own.

Self reliance and resilience is more important now than it ever has been.


----------



## JohnDe (15 March 2022)

I found this interesting -

_"60,000km in a Model 3 charged at my current SE Qld AGL standard tariff of 25c/KwHr vs average Australian passenger vehicle (average fuel economy 11.1L/100km - source ABS 2020) at current Brisbane city ULP91 fuel prices of $2.20 litre_​_Total Model 3 charging cost: $2,340_​_Total Average Australian passenger vehicle petrol cost: $14,652"_​






__





						Log into Facebook
					

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.




					www.facebook.com


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2022)

What I find interesting at the moment is, it wasn't long ago that the media were suggesting the Government put measures in place to make ICE vehicles less attractive and to encourage the adoption of EV's.
Now that the price of fuel has gone up, the media wants the Government to reduce the price, strange I would have thought it would have done exactly what they wanted, to make EV's look a more attractive option.


----------



## rederob (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Cool, if you think you can compete, you should do it, you should put together a group of investors.



Electric Vehicles are now integrating cutting edge technology with AI and machine learning, so those here with antiquated ideas about starting a production facility without those capacities are doomed before they start.  Assisted driving, and in years to come autonomous driving, also bring new levels of safety to our roads with the ability to determine and react to situations literally faster than the blink of an eye.
About the only possible area Australia could score a run would be to develop and patent a unique EV battery formulation that was cheaper, lighter and more energy dense than what is presently available.  Even then we would suffer the constraint of shipping costs and transport delays because we won't have any vehicles manufacturers nearby.

I have posted a fair bit on BYD because that company makes its own chips, batteries, most parts, and is still building more vehicle production plants.  It's the only company in the world fully vertically integrated and expanding its EV production numbers at a rate second only to Tesla. Tesla's gigapress casting machines, many innovative patents, and more advanced vehicle construction techniques - especially in relation to reducing the number of parts needed to "build" its cars - mean it still has an edge over any of the Chinese companies making EVs, but they are catching up.  I personally believe Tesla should maintain its edge by continuing to target the middle/upper priced market and maintain its strong selling margins, rather than go for volume production with lesser margins, even if they do choose to build another plant in China.  Tesla has built from a base which offers only a few models, and has been spectacularly successful by sticking to this knitting.  Meanwhile the  the many legacy carmakers who have tried to be all things to all people are consistently losing market share with their ICEV offerings, and getting further and further behind the NEV manufacturers the longer they delay transitioning.  Their problem will be trying to compete with less advanced vehicles that cost more.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2022)

rederob said:


> i'm sure that there are labs in CSIR
> Electric Vehicles are now integrating cutting edge technology with AI and machine learning, so those here with antiquated ideas about starting a production facility without those capacities are doomed before they start.




What makes you think AI and machine learning is unknown is Australia ?

I'm sure that there are labs in CSIRO and our universities could supply those skills.

Maybe Mike Cannon-Brooks has some ideas.

Why you and others keep running down this country is a mystery.


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Huh, too rich for me it would have to be government backed.
> 
> When are you going to wake up to the fact that the global economy is not just about money or competition any more, it's about geo-politics and achieving economic and political dominance ?
> 
> ...



Why does it have to be government? 

I am sure Elon and Warren have weighed up the benefits and risks of China versus Australia, as you said there is political risks in China, which means if they chose to go there anyway, there must be some massive economic and industrial benefits to outweigh the risk.


----------



## mullokintyre (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Why does it have to be government?
> 
> I am sure Elon and Warren have weighed up the benefits and risks of China versus Australia, as you said there is political risks in China, which means if they chose to go there anyway, there must be some massive economic and industrial benefits to outweigh the risk.



I am sure you are quite correct in assuming that Wokka and Elon weighed up the risks of just about anything they do, but  their weighing may not always be correct, nor have they factored in  the "unknown unknowns", such as Russia invading Ukraine.
Entities, be they governments, fund managers, CEO's of large corporations of NGO's , do not always get risk management right.
I have a hunch that both Wokka and Elon are going to come out of their forrays into China  with some negativities.
The question is , how much.
Mick


----------



## rederob (15 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What I find interesting at the moment is, it wasn't long ago that the media were suggesting the Government put measures in place to make ICE vehicles less attractive and to encourage the adoption of EV's.
> Now that the price of fuel has gone up, the media wants the Government to reduce the price, strange I would have thought it would have done exactly what they wanted, to make EV's look a more attractive option.



The media reports the views of industry and politicians.
How they report may be the subject of their biases, but it's not them coming up with the story to begin with.
The only caveat to the above is where *industry specialists* write media columns, blogs, posts or upload videos with their views, or have dedicated channels or media outlets.


SirRumpole said:


> What makes you think AI and machine learning is unknown is Australia ?
> 
> I'm sure that there are labs in CSIRO and our universities could supply those skills.



The learning process is from an NEV vehicle's information system, over the air to the manufacturer, then to the programmers and chip makers.
Maybe CSIRO can get out their Matchbox toys and run a few billion simulations covering every driving scenario tens of thousands of of times, as without access to NEV information systems they have no hope.


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I am sure you are quite correct in assuming that Wokka and Elon weighed up the risks of just about anything they do, but  their weighing may not always be correct, nor have they factored in  the "unknown unknowns", such as Russia invading Ukraine.
> Entities, be they governments, fund managers, CEO's of large corporations of NGO's , do not always get risk management right.
> I have a hunch that both Wokka and Elon are going to come out of their forrays into China  with some negativities.
> The question is , how much.
> Mick



Of course CEOs don’t always get it right, but they probably get it right more often than politicians, So I feel more comfortable allowing the capital allocation decisions to those CEOs and investors putting their own money at risk, rather than the tax payers.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2022)

rederob said:


> The media reports the views of industry and politicians.
> How they report may be the subject of their biases, but it's not them coming up with the story to begin with.
> The only caveat to the above is where *industry specialists* write media columns, blogs, posts or upload videos with their views, or have dedicated channels or media outlets.



Don't you think it would do more good for their overall thrust of stopping global warming, to put a bias suggesting the public consider EV's as the issue with fuel is going to be ongoing, one way or another.
Rather than pressuring the Government to reduce the excise to make fuel cheaper, it doesn't present a very cohesive argument for the climate change thrust, when as soon as the cost goes up the media cry is to make it more affordable.
As you say it is only bias, but when their bias proves how much BS they push, it actually shows the issues are presented to feed the chooks and maintain circulation, not present logical cohesive reporting.
Either climate change is an important issue that needs addressing, or does it really depend on how much it costs the reporter, to fill their cars?
It is a bit like when the issue of housing affordability is reported on, the reports are always biased and focused on the problem with affordability in Melbourne/Sydney, where coincidentally the journalist live and are looking to buy, funny that.
Which stories they wish to report on and the way they present  it, has a huge impact on the general publics perceptions, they do indeed come up with stories, in the same way as they sometimes don't report on a story that should be presented, self censoring is a disaster.


----------



## Macquack (15 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Why not *get rid of financial services people* so we can employ them in electric car building ?



You got my vote SirRumpole.


----------



## rederob (15 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Don't you think it would do more good for their overall thrust of stopping global warming, to put a bias suggesting the public consider EV's as the issue with fuel is going to be ongoing, one way or another.
> Rather than pressuring the Government to reduce the excise to make fuel cheaper, it doesn't present a very cohesive argument for the climate change thrust, when as soon as the cost goes up the media cry is to make it more affordable.
> As you say it is only bias, but when their bias proves how much BS they push, it actually shows the issues are presented to feed the chooks and maintain circulation, not present logical cohesive reporting.
> Either climate change is an important issue that needs addressing, or does it really depend on how much it costs the reporter, to fill their cars?
> ...



I guess a lot depends on where you go for what you want to know about.
Lots post from Twitter at ASF without any comments attached, lots post from pseudoscience rather than peer reviewed material, lots post their preferred slant from media that offers positive reinforcement, and lots post without any data or supporting information to give a rationale to their comments.

Specifically on the topic of EVs our federal government is nothing short of prehistoric by maintaining large grants and subsidies relating to the FF sector and comparatively little to foster NEVs.  As @Smurf1976 often points out, their policy is deliberate in not having one at all.

As you and I discovered, States/Territories are offering a bit here and nothing there to incentivise or otherwise EV take-up. I could easily have changed my address to my brother in law's just over an hour's drive away in NSW and got $5300 off my EV price, and then  come back home with a very mucher cheaper car than using my Qld address.  Such market distortions are undesirable and should have been addressed at National Cabinet.  Unfortunately anything to do with energy is too hard for the feds to deal with so we keep getting a clusterfart of initiatives that vary by each Premier's predelictions.  My personal view is that NSW is further ahead than all the other States in terms of driving change, and are only dragged back with lesser environmental policies.


----------



## qldfrog (15 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> What makes you think AI and machine learning is unknown is Australia ?
> 
> I'm sure that there are labs in CSIRO and our universities could supply those skills.
> 
> ...



Yes we have some AI..but you will not bring me back to work in Oz...
It is just hard to attract real talents in Oz and the covid debacle did not help


----------



## Bourseboy (15 March 2022)

In this or another thread someone raised the question of Australia producing fuel (petrol) from coal. We have an abundance of coal. Sasol/SASOL in South Africa has made fuel from coal since the mid 1950's and is probably still doing so. Sasol is integrated (also mines the coal). 
AECI (a South African chemical and explosives company) had an ammonia from coal (1000tons ammonia/day) plant, commissioned about 1972, which I have been told (on good authority) was later sold to China for scrap metal value. Around 1995 I know this plant was still operating in South Africa. Apparently it is now operating in China (the scrap metal contract included all engineering plans etc). No doubt South Africa now buys ammonia (and/or the downstream products) from China


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

Macquack said:


> You got my vote SirRumpole.



How are you going to have a car industry if you get rid of the financing industry? Almost all cars are financed or leased, even in the used car market.

Not to mention building the factory requires financing for all the construction companies and trades, the financial industry is actually the bedrock of the economy, even though most people wouldn’t want to admit it.


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

Bourseboy said:


> In this or another thread someone raised the question of Australia producing fuel (petrol) from coal. We have an abundance of coal. Sasol/SASOL in South Africa has made fuel from coal since the mid 1950's and is probably still doing so. Sasol is integrated (also mines the coal).
> AECI (a South African chemical and explosives company) had an ammonia from coal (1000tons ammonia/day) plant, commissioned about 1972, which I have been told (on good authority) was later sold to China for scrap metal value. Around 1995 I know this plant was still operating in South Africa. Apparently it is now operating in China (the scrap metal contract included all engineering plans etc). No doubt South Africa now buys ammonia (and/or the downstream products) from China



It is neither cheap or environmentally friendly.

Feel free to fund a facility to do it, but once the war in Ukraine ends and the oil price crashes your plant will be dead in the water before it produces its first barrel.

I have been there and done that with a biodiesel plant back in 2007


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> How are you going to have a car industry if you get rid of the financing industry? Almost all cars are financed or leased, even in the used car market.




You can't take a joke can you ? Didn't you see the emojis in that post ?

But the way the financial industry has behaved in the last few decades, large parts of it could be gotten rid of with a net benefit to the consumer.


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Why does it have to be government?
> 
> I am sure Elon and Warren have weighed up the benefits and risks of China versus Australia, as you said there is political risks in China, which means if they chose to go there anyway, there must be some massive economic and industrial benefits to outweigh the risk.




Again you are arguing purely on an economic basis, and in that respect you are right, the economics of China outweighs the economics of Australia, but you fail again to take into account sovereign risk , which is much higher now that there is a Chinese leader prepared to throw his weight around economically and politically.

Of course you will probably have retired to the Bahamas in the meantime, but there are still people concerned with Australia's future.


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Again you are arguing purely on an economic basis, and in that respect you are right, the economics of China outweighs the economics of Australia, but you fail again to take into account sovereign risk , which is much higher now that there is a Chinese leader prepared to throw his weight around economically and politically.
> 
> Of course you will probably have retired to the Bahamas in the meantime, but there are still people concerned with Australia's future.



I think the risk is over stated


----------



## SirRumpole (15 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I think the risk is over stated




I hope you are right, but as the wise men say, hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


----------



## Value Collector (15 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I hope you are right, but as the wise men say, hope for the best but prepare for the worst.



I think with cars we have multiple import options, eg many nations in Asia, America and Europe I don’t think we have to worry to much about losing an one of those supply lines, also its not like fuel, eg if imports of cars new cars totally stopped for a year we would be fine.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I guess a lot depends on where you go for what you want to know about.
> Lots post from Twitter at ASF without any comments attached, lots post from pseudoscience rather than peer reviewed material, lots post their preferred slant from media that offers positive reinforcement, and lots post without any data or supporting information to give a rationale to their comments.
> 
> Specifically on the topic of EVs our federal government is nothing short of prehistoric by maintaining large grants and subsidies relating to the FF sector and comparatively little to foster NEVs.  As @Smurf1976 often points out, their policy is deliberate in not having one at all.
> ...



A lot of your post is true, however the States are responsible for the registering of the vehicles and the stamp duty, as you know in W.A the stamp duty is ridiculous. To make matters worse some States or putting a mileage road tax on E.V's, to compensate for loss of fuel excise, when they don't even have a fuel excise it is a Federal tax  they get a small percentage of the GST on fuel.
Federally applying a rebate on E.V's just makes no sense to me, the rebate has to be funded by someone, money from consolidated revenue, still means a tax, one way or another. Like I've already said, the Federal Government subsidising E.V infrastructure, so that everywhere in Australia gets adequate E.V charging facilities I can understand, if poor people buy second hand E.V's there will requirement for them to charge it more often due to a degraded battery and most wont be living in Sydney or Melbourne where charging infrastructure is already far greater than most places. Just google E.V charge point map and look at the deployment.
Giving people a hand out to buy a $50k car is just a wealth transfer IMO.
Everyone has a different take on it and most have their hand out at every opportunity, whether they need help or not.


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2022)

A review on the BYD atto3









						2022 BYD Atto 3 video review: Australian first drive
					

We get behind the wheel of what could be a game-changer for electric cars in Australia, the 2022 BYD Atto 3. What we love That impressive rotating central




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## JohnDe (15 March 2022)

rederob said:


> In relation to a shares site, however, I do regard BYD a better stock to buy for appreciation than Tesla, but it's not possible unless I were living in China.




It’s possible to buy using the Commsec International account and Stake under BYDDY


----------



## sptrawler (15 March 2022)

Prices are starting to rise, in expectation of rising battery costs.









						Tesla bumps up Model 3 price in Australia as supplies dwindle
					

US electric vehicle giant raises price of the entry level Model 3 in the Australian market adding a $1,000 premium to the starting price for the enormously popular EV.




					thedriven.io


----------



## Macquack (16 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> How are you going to have a car industry if you get rid of the financing industry? Almost all cars are financed or leased, even in the used car market.
> 
> Not to mention building the factory requires financing for all the construction companies and trades, the financial industry is actually the bedrock of the economy, even though most people wouldn’t want to admit it.



Lighten up a bit VC. As SirRumpole points out, the financial sector are becoming a parasite on the economy without producing anything tangible.

Even your man Elon Musk agrees - “Goods & services are *the real economy*, any form of money is simply the accounting thereof.”


----------



## rederob (16 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A lot of your post is true, however the States are responsible for the registering of the vehicles and the stamp duty, as you know in W.A the stamp duty is ridiculous. To make matters worse some States or putting a mileage road tax on E.V's, to compensate for loss of fuel excise, when they don't even have a fuel excise it is a Federal tax  they get a small percentage of the GST on fuel.
> Federally applying a rebate on E.V's just makes no sense to me, the rebate has to be funded by someone, money from consolidated revenue, still means a tax, one way or another. Like I've already said, the Federal Government subsidising E.V infrastructure, so that everywhere in Australia gets adequate E.V charging facilities I can understand, if poor people buy second hand E.V's there will requirement for them to charge it more often due to a degraded battery and most wont be living in Sydney or Melbourne where charging infrastructure is already far greater than most places. Just google E.V charge point map and look at the deployment.
> Giving people a hand out to buy a $50k car is just a wealth transfer IMO.
> Everyone has a different take on it and most have their hand out at every opportunity, whether they need help or not.



I previously posted on what can be done to ensure the wealthy are locked out of any or most incentives for EVs.

As you say, if a financial rebate or tax offset is going to be made by a government to NEV purchasers it will erode its tax base.  So whenever a State/Territory government does that, then it needs to make up for it somewhere else.   And we know your "makes no sense" argument is already in play on the east coast where it makes even less sense because the States/Territories are all doing something very different.

The beauty of a federal rebate is that it would be consistent across the nation, and remove present distortions.  Moreover, we could rob some of undeserving Peter's present FF rebates - which are billions annually - and hand them over to magnanimous Paul to redistribute to NEV owners.

A slightly less effective option in tax revenue terms would involve a federal rebate for NEVs, where all luxury car taxes get transferred into a pool that was disbursed to purchasers of NEVs under $50k.  That transfer at least serves a purpose that's vehicle related, unlike current road taxes.

There are so many clever things that could be done to incentivise NEV ownership for low income earners, but we don't even have a national policy to begin with.  The other thing about incentivisation is that it decreases over time and then disappears, so could, for example, cease from 2026 onwards.  Such policy arrangements provide an additional FOMO incentivisation. 

The battery degradation problem will only exist for lithium ternary batteries as LFP batteries should continue to cycle with minimal loss well beyond the average road lifetime of vehicles.


----------



## Value Collector (16 March 2022)

Macquack said:


> Lighten up a bit VC. As SirRumpole points out, the financial sector are becoming a parasite on the economy without producing anything tangible.
> 
> Even your man Elon Musk agrees - “Goods & services are *the real economy*, any form of money is simply the accounting thereof.”



Firstly, what makes you think my comments aren’t light? Just because I don’t insert an emoji don’t assume I am sitting here typing with a frown.

As I said, the real economy wouldn’t function without finance, it’s a very real part of the economy, it’s a misconception that the finance industry isn’t real.

Even the concept of writing itself was developed for the purpose of accounting and finance, nothing moves in the real economy without the financial industry.

There is actually a lot of charities that have learned that some of the best aid they can supply to developing nations is “Micro loans” to help kick start the real economy in these places.

Check out KIVA it’s a great charitable foundation, that focuses on making micro loans in developing countries.

https://www.kiva.org/


----------



## rederob (16 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> It’s possible to buy using the Commsec International account and Stake under BYDDY




Thanks John.
I am subscribed to the Electric Viking and watch what he posts every day (though not always his full video content).
I am with Commsec, but never wanted to open an international account.  Maybe that will change!


sptrawler said:


> Prices are starting to rise, in expectation of rising battery costs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not just the price, but waiting times in Australia are continuing to blow out for Tesla's.
Am really glad I put my deposit down on the BYD to lock in its price and delivery date.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> As I said, the real economy wouldn’t function without finance, it’s a very real part of the economy, it’s a misconception that the finance industry isn’t real.




Of course the finance industry is real, but there are various elements of it, and some disturbing features of how it works were exposed in the Royal Commission the government didn't want to have.


----------



## Value Collector (16 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Of course the finance industry is real, but there are various elements of it, and some disturbing features of how it works were exposed in the Royal Commission the government didn't want to have.



I would think that most industries have some corruption.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I would think that most industries have some corruption.




Absolutely, that's why we need a Federal ICAC with the powers to investigate any industry.


----------



## JohnDe (16 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Absolutely, that's why we need a Federal ICAC with the powers to investigate any industry.




How much more bureaucracy & red tape do we need?



			https://www.austrade.gov.au/ArticleDocuments/1358/Anti-Bribery-Corruption-%20A-guide-for-Australians-doing-business-offshore.pdf.aspx
		










						Anti-corruption
					

This department is playing an active role in combating corruption through developing domestic policy on anti-corruption and engagement in a range of international anti-corruption forums.




					www.ag.gov.au


----------



## SirRumpole (16 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> How much more bureaucracy & red tape do we need?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Enough to ensure that politicians and industry are kept honest.

It's obviously not enough at the moment.


----------



## JohnDe (16 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Enough to ensure that politicians and industry are kept honest.
> 
> It's obviously not enough at the moment.




Maybe in your world it’s full of corruption and too much freedom.

Over in mine I’d prefer not to lose anymore of our freedom but I am quite comfortable knowing that we have a fair and equitable system with enough checks and balances.


----------



## moXJO (16 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Thanks John.
> I am subscribed to the Electric Viking and watch what he posts every day (though not always his full video content).
> I am with Commsec, but never wanted to open an international account.  Maybe that will change!
> 
> ...



Any red flags with this stock?
Rising metal prices.
Russia.
Evergrande
Subsidies ending soon?


----------



## SirRumpole (16 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Maybe in your world it’s full of corruption and too much freedom.
> 
> Over in mine I’d prefer not to lose anymore of our freedom but I am quite comfortable knowing that we have a fair and equitable system with enough checks and balances.




I don't know how you equate freedom with being ripped off, but you are welcome to your opinion.

Maybe your  freedom is the ability to rip off others ?


----------



## rederob (16 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Any red flags with this stock?
> Rising metal prices.
> Russia.
> Evergrande
> Subsidies ending soon?



BYD is the world's biggest e-Bus builder, with sales on 4 continents.
BYD in 2022 will probably become the world's second biggest battery manufacturer as it is still building more plants.  It makes mostly LFP batteries so metals prices will not be a problem.
In 2022 BYD will displace Volkswagen, and probably SAIC as well, to become the second biggest manufacture of all-electric cars.
 I think all Chinese cars carry a red flag, so getting more traction in the US market might be harder than for elsewhere.
And Chinese car subsidies will make no difference as NEVs are being manufactured for about the same price on a comparable vehicle basis.


----------



## JohnDe (16 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I don't know how you equate freedom with being ripped off, but you are welcome to your opinion.
> 
> Maybe your  freedom is the ability to rip off others ?




Every time a new watchdog is created to monitor the previous watchdog we get another level of highly paid bureaucrats with not enough to do that then create work for themselves - we end up paying more taxes and lose more freedoms.

For some reason unknown to me, the previous generation scream about high taxes yet their the first to call for more watchdogs.


----------



## moXJO (16 March 2022)

rederob said:


> BYD is the world's biggest e-Bus builder, with sales on 4 continents.
> BYD in 2022 will probably become the world's second biggest battery manufacturer as it is still building more plants.  It makes mostly LFP batteries so metals prices will not be a problem.
> In 2022 BYD will displace Volkswagen, and probably SAIC as well, to become the second biggest manufacture of all-electric cars.
> I think all Chinese cars carry a red flag, so getting more traction in the US market might be harder than for elsewhere.
> And Chinese car subsidies will make no difference as NEVs are being manufactured for about the same price on a comparable vehicle basis.



Just saw Buffet had a stake. Bought in a while back.


----------



## SirRumpole (16 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Every time a new watchdog is created to monitor the previous watchdog we get another level of highly paid bureaucrats with not enough to do that then create work for themselves - we end up paying more taxes and lose more freedoms.
> 
> For some reason unknown to me, the previous generation scream about high taxes yet their the first to call for more watchdogs.




I'm 65 so maybe not so 'previous'. 

Anyway, self regulation is a joke and has been for some time. Look at the banking industry and construction industry , both have severe problems and someone needs to be overseeing them because they won't do it themselves.

Anyway, wrong thread for this, back to EV's I hope.


----------



## Iggy_Pop (16 March 2022)

Subsidies are being planned for Queensland








						Queenslanders will be offered cash if they buy an electric car. Here's what you need to know
					

A subsidy for new electric vehicles has been announced to persuade Queensland motorists to switch over. This is how it will work.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## bk1 (16 March 2022)

As usual with our national broadcaster, read the last paragraph first for a reality check or an inconvenient truth. 

The battery pack accounts for roughly a quarter of the total EV vehicle cost and with battery prices expected to fall, this was likely to correspond with lower EV purchase prices in the future.      *Is that right ? I guess Musk must be lying ...*

Tesla's Model S has a price tag of more than $150,000 and would not be available through the subsidy.
*I can count the amount of Model S i have seen in Brisbane on my fingers*


----------



## rederob (16 March 2022)

bk1 said:


> As usual with our national broadcaster, read the last paragraph first for a reality check or an inconvenient truth.
> 
> The battery pack accounts for roughly a quarter of the total EV vehicle cost and with battery prices expected to fall, this was likely to correspond with lower EV purchase prices in the future.      *Is that right ? I guess Musk must be lying ...*



I don't know what the ABC said that's a problem?  Can you elaborate please.
LFP batteries are getting cheaper and Lithium ternary batteries are getting more expensive.
Does that help?


----------



## Value Collector (16 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Just saw Buffet had a stake. Bought in a while back.



Yeah Berkshire bought in about 11 years ago, it was Charlie’s Idea, not actually Buffett.


----------



## Value Collector (16 March 2022)

bk1 said:


> As usual with our national broadcaster, read the last paragraph first for a reality check or an inconvenient truth.
> 
> The battery pack accounts for roughly a quarter of the total EV vehicle cost and with battery prices expected to fall, this was likely to correspond with lower EV purchase prices in the future.      *Is that right ? I guess Musk must be lying ...*
> 
> ...



The Model 3 is the their biggest seller in Australia, there is so many out their now, I see one almost every time I am out on the road.

I used to wave to other Tesla drivers when I got mine back in 2019, but there is to many out their now to bother hahaha.


----------



## sptrawler (16 March 2022)

Another Tesla story.








						2022 Tesla Model 3 prices rise by up to $5200 in Australia
					

The Tesla Model 3 electric car has been hit with its second price rise in two weeks – with the flagship Performance up by $5200, once mandatory Luxury Car




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Another Tesla story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There you go, what Aussie buyers have to put up with in the ever 'competitive' EV market.


----------



## qldfrog (17 March 2022)

And related to EVs/chips:
https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/art...recoller-au-peloton-mondial_6117722_3234.html
Intel investing 80 billions euros in EU..note that half is taxpayers' money...and 80 billions is subject to success etc..
BTW am I the only one looking at such figures and feeling that we are in Zimbabwe?
"How much for the croissant?
20 millions, but we have a deal for 100 millions you get bottomless coffee.. 🥴"


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There you go, what Aussie buyers have to put up with in the ever 'competitive' EV market.



I agree 100%, but we  can't compete making E.V's against countries that sell 40 million cars a year.
We would have to build plants to make electric motors, control systems, chips, etc, as with our car industry we couldn't do it once we stopped tariffs.
But having said that, we do get a much better product cheaper.
So it becomes a balance, what we have an advantage on we need to support.
That is what annoys me like Lynas building the rare earth processing plant in Malaysia, then having nothing but trouble with the Malaysian Government.
We have the rare earths, we have all the raw materials to make all styles of batteries, we should be making them, not sending the raw materials offshore for processing, unless the company that buys the raw materials builds a processing plant here.
WOW that sounds like the 1960's when the companies had to build blast furnaces, if they mined the raw materials, they had to build towns to support the mines, life goes around in a circle doesn't it.
We need to stop all the nonsense around finding reasons to make manufacturing difficult in Australia, we need to demand if value adding in Australia isn't viable, why not.
No one wants to ask the hard questions, if we don't ask the hard questions, we don't face the reality, why should we get 0.5% return on the value of the finished product, by sending the raw material offshore for processing?
I think everyone knows the answers, but no one is allowed to speak these days, for fear of retribution.
As Brendon Grylls found out.  








						WA Opposition Leader exorcises Grylls’ ghost by burying iron tax policy
					

With the Nationals parachuted into Opposition, there was a chance the iron ore tax proposed by former leader Brendon Grylls in 2017 could make a come back. The party says it won’t.




					www.watoday.com.au
				



From the article:
Mr Grylls wanted to increase the 25 cent per tonne production rental fee on iron ore, which was set in agreements with the miners in the 1960s, to $5 a tonne, raising $7.2 billion over four years. The proposal, which was put forward at a time when WA was receiving a lower GST share and struggling with a debt-laden budget, was met with fierce opposition from the industry. The miners waged a multi-million dollar campaign against the tax, ultimately costing Mr Grylls his seat.


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There you go, what Aussie buyers have to put up with in the ever 'competitive' EV market.



Are you trying to say that we could compete with Tesla, and make a car equal to the model 3 for cheaper? I doubt it.

Also, if you read the article the base model went up $1000, that’s a smaller price increase than the average kitchen Reno in Australia in the last 12 months.

The headline figure of $5000 increase includes the increase caused by the luxury vehicle tax, which as I have said is basically a battery tax, and should probably kick in at a higher purchase price for Evs.


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I agree 100%, but we  can't compete making E.V's against countries that sell 40 million cars a year.
> We would have to build plants to make electric motors, control systems, chips, etc, as with our car industry we couldn't do it once we stopped tariffs.
> But having said that, we do get a much better product cheaper.
> So it becomes a balance, what we have an advantage on we need to support.
> ...



You know we send fish caught in Victoria to Thailand to be canned, and then sent back to Victoria to be sold! It’s a weird world in global economics, but certain things are just they way it is, consumers are price driven.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Are you trying to say that we could compete with Tesla, and make a car equal to the model 3 for cheaper? I doubt it.




A lot of the pricing of EV's (and other vehicles) is opportunistic, ie caused by low supply and high demand. 

Increase supply, reduce the prices.

Economics 101.


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You know we send fish caught in Victoria to Thailand to be canned, and then sent back to Victoria to be sold! It’s a weird world in global economics, but certain things are just they way it is, consumers are price driven.



Do you know we used to have a lot of canneries here, before we removed tariffs, so we could send the fish to third world countries to get them canned cheaper.
Then we payed the workers here who lost their jobs the dole, so they could buy the fish cheaper and the multinational companies got greater profits.
What a great win, great efficiency send the product 2000klm to be canned, increase your taxes, to pay the ones you sacked to be able to buy the $hit they used to produce, magic sustainable model. Lol
In reality China is proving how pizz poor that model is and the fat ar$ed lazy sods that cheer it on, will one day rue their smugness IMO.
Even Jack Ma who is richer than anyone in Australia, has no influence, in some regimes.


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Do you know we used to have a lot of canneries here, before we removed tariffs, so we could send the fish to third world countries to get them canned cheaper.
> Then we payed the workers here who lost their jobs the dole, so they could buy the fish cheaper and the multinational companies got greater profits.
> What a great win, great efficiency send the product 2000klm to be canned, increase your taxes, to pay the ones you sacked to be able to buy the $hit they used to produce, magic sustainable model. Lol
> In reality China is proving how pizz poor that model is and the fat ar$ed lazy sods that cheer it on, will one day rue their smugness IMO.
> Even Jack Ma who is richer than anyone in Australia, has no influence, in some regimes.



Unemployment rate is lower now than it was then, and we have more employed in total because the participation rates of females has increased dramatically.

Globalisation has caused some jobs to be moved offshore, but a whole lot of jobs have also been created.


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> A lot of the pricing of EV's (and other vehicles) is opportunistic, ie caused by low supply and high demand.
> 
> Increase supply, reduce the prices.
> 
> Economics 101.



Do you think we could produce the same quality of vehicle here while also selling it for a lower pride and still make money, given the fact that we would have to be producing lower volumes?


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Do you think we could produce the same quality of vehicle here while also selling it for a lower pride and still make money, given the fact that we would have to be producing lower volumes?




Well we wouldn't b e subsidising Elon's space jaunts for a start.


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well we wouldn't b e subsidising Elon's space jaunts for a start.



What does that mean?

Space Ex has nothing to do with Tesla anyway, and if you haven’t noticed there is no Australian subsidy available for Teslas to begin with.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

A couple of interesting stories









						Musk says Tesla, SpaceX face 'significant' inflationary pressure
					

Tesla Inc Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk said the U.S. electric carmaker and his rocket company SpaceX are facing significant inflationary pressure in raw materials and logistics.




					www.reuters.com
				












						Nickel reserves worldwide by country 2021 | Statista
					

As of 2021, the total global nickel reserves amounted to approximately 95 million metric tons.




					www.statista.com
				




Australia - nickel - batteries ?

Why don't we value add this stuff instead of just taking the export raw material and buy back the finished product option ?

Don't tell me it's due to economics, once the raw product is exported we have no say in where it goes.

This is a strategic supply, we should be exploiting it to the max.


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> A couple of interesting stories
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don’t know, maybe talk to Panasonic and the other battery manufacturers, They own battery facilities all over the world, I am they don’t have anything against Australia, and if the economics did line up they would build a factory here.

But there is more to it than just raw materials.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t know, maybe talk to Panasonic and the other battery manufacturers, They own battery facilities all over the world, I am they don’t have anything against Australia, and if the economics did line up they would build a factory here.
> 
> But there is more to it than just raw materials.




Yes that's right, rely on foreigners to do stuff for us.

That's what made this country 'un-great' .


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes that's right, rely on foreigners to do stuff for us.
> 
> That's what made this country 'un-great' .



North Korea tries to do everything themselves, how is that working for them? That’s what happens when a country of 25 Million tries to go it alone.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> North Korea tries to do everything themselves, how is that working for them? That’s what happens when a country of 25 Million tries to go it alone.




North Korea is a failed state lead by a dill.

It is totally isolationist , that is stupid.

There are capabilities we don't have that we should have, using an extreme example of a dictatorship doesn't advance your argument.


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

The push to EV's is increasing.








						‘It’s no longer a rich man’s car’: Where electric car ownership is surging in Sydney
					

Electric cars are surging across NSW with more now registered around Parramatta than anywhere else in the state as prices fall and access to charging stations increases.




					www.smh.com.au
				



Electric cars are surging across NSW, with more now registered in Canterbury-Bankstown and around Parramatta than anywhere else in the state as their prices fall and access to charging stations increases.
NSW registered electric vehicles, hybrid petrol-electric cars and those using “other fuel” including hydrogen more than doubled from 37,238 to 78,644 in the two years to September 2021.


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> North Korea is a failed state lead by a dill.
> 
> It is totally isolationist , that is stupid.
> 
> There are capabilities we don't have that we should have, using an extreme position of a dictatorship doesn't advance your argument.



My argument is just that I don’t believe a population of 25,000,000 can actually physically supply the labour force to supply itself with all the doodads we need to live a modern life style, we need to be offshoring parts of the economy.

We already have low unemployment and labour shortages, that’s a clear sign that we are already at or close to our limit for what we can do for ourselves.

I don’t believe there is any benefit to moving labour and capital away from the areas we have natural advantages to the areas that require subsidies and that might struggle.

If we had mass unemployment, it would make sense though.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The push to EV's is increasing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Prices fall ? The Tesla Model 3 just went up by $5,000.


----------



## rederob (17 March 2022)

Not only was *this* the worst write up of Qld's $3000 NEV subsidy, it's got obvious mistakes and comparisons.  This excerpt from the article has to be as bad as so called *journalism *can get:
"_*Overseas, the cheapest electric car is sold in Macau for $56,000, then in China for $58,000, and about the same in Romania.*_"​Really???
​Contrast the above with *this*, which has almost 30 links to further reading of relevance, including other State /Territory incentives:


The *Car**Expert *website has some of the best articles on EV issues in Australia, including our failure to have in place a national EV policy.

Back to incentives for a moment.  It does look like some States have a rebate cap that gives Teslas an in, while Queensland clearly decided to lock out Teslas and cap at a lower price rung.  None of the caps are defensible, and none incentivise car manufacturers to bring cheaper models here to be affordable to the average car buyer.  In that regard Canstar's latest survey suggests the average sedan price was $44,557 in 2021, so rounding that up to $50k would make sense as most cars in the survey were ICEVs which are typically cheaper here on a comparative basis.

Were I writing the Premier's notes on the QLD incentive I would have said it was principally to cover on-road and insurance costs as the car industry nearly always quotes "drive away", yet for EVs - which are often purchased on line - those costs are seldom included.

(Edit - I assumed base level Teslas came in under the $68k cap, but with price rises in the wind, is that no longer the case?)


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> My argument is just that I don’t believe a population of 25,000,000 can actually physically supply the labour force to supply itself with all the doodads we need to live a modern life style, we need to be offshoring parts of the economy.
> 
> We already have low unemployment and labour shortages, that’s a clear sign that we are already at or close to our limit for what we can do for ourselves.
> 
> ...




Low unemployment and labour shortages are the result of the borders being closed for two years.;

We had 3 companies manufacturing vehicles in this country before the tariffs came down, we have the capability to do it.

But I guess for some, we are still better off being a mine, a farm and a beach.


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Low unemployment and labour shortages are the result of the borders being closed for two years.;
> 
> We had 3 companies manufacturing vehicles in this country before the tariffs came down, we have the capability to do it.
> 
> But I guess for some, we are still better off being a mine, a farm and a beach.



You do understand the at tariffs are taxes on the Australian consumers right?

Eg, foreign company can produce a car for $50k that would cost $55k to produce in Australia, so the government adds a $10k tax to the foreign one to make the Australian one artificially cheaper, but it’s only cheaper because of extra taxes.

So the end result is that Australian consumers are forced to pay more for cars, because of tax.


----------



## JohnDe (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Prices fall ? The Tesla Model 3 just went up by $5,000.




I hope that you realise that you don't have to buy an EV or even a Tesla.

There are plenty of alternative vehicles available to purchase, new and second hand, petrol, diesel hybrid, electric and a dwindling number of LPG.

When choosing your car make sure to assess the overall running cost of the life of the vehicle, and if you change your cars often compare the resale value.

Diesel has the advantage of great mileage and towing capacity, but maintenance cost can be slightly higher on some models and extremely higher on others, compared to other energy types. One big disadvantage to diesel is that it is being phased out as a personal transport option in most European countries and has never been a big seller in Japan and the US.

LPG is a fuel that no vehicle manufacturer uses anymore, so if buying second hand take into account that the fuel sales will be dropping and prices going up, also that resale will be gutted.

Petrol is the main fuel now, it will be available for decades to come. Though we are at the mercy of world oil prices and disasters like disease, floods and war. Maintenance cost will be dropping on new models as they compete against EVs minimal service requirements, oil changes and tune ups will be extended with premium parts. Re-sale is a difficult one to guess, as new car production come back on line there may be a glut of cars which could bring the prices down. And then there is the time when manufactures phase out petrol for electric, this could create a price hike for a short time.

Enjoy your choices.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You do understand the at tariffs are taxes on the Australian consumers right?
> 
> Eg, foreign company can produce a car for $50k that would cost $55k to produce in Australia, so the government adds a $10k tax to the foreign one to make the Australian one artificially cheaper, but it’s only cheaper because of extra taxes.
> 
> So the end result is that Australian consumers are forced to pay more for cars, because of tax.




A bit old, but it shows that when we did have manufacturers here, the cost of assistance to the car industry were modest compared to other countries.









						FactCheck: do other countries subsidise their car industry more than we do?
					

“By international standards our support [of the automotive industry] is modest, so we have to work hard to attract the new investment.” – Industry minister Senator Kim Carr, Lateline, 22 July. The idea…




					theconversation.com


----------



## JohnDe (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> A bit old, but it shows that when we did have manufacturers here, the cost of assistance to the car industry were modest compared to other countries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Remember the Holden Starfire engine? Now that was a fantastic example of engineering forced upon us because there was no competition. And the 3 speed automatic that our home grown cars had as standard equipment while all the imports had an overdrive. Those were the days


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I hope that you realise that you don't have to buy an EV or even a Tesla.
> 
> There are plenty of alternative vehicles available to purchase, new and second hand, petrol, diesel hybrid, electric and a dwindling number of LPG.
> 
> ...




Thank you for that precis. As a diesel driver I will stick to that until there is more support for EV's in regional areas.


----------



## rederob (17 March 2022)

This video shows where niche markets exist for classic cars, as previously discussed, and how the learning process can then be applied to other small volume but purpose built larger vehicles:


A local version is *here*:


----------



## SirRumpole (17 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Remember the Holden Starfire engine? Now that was a fantastic example of engineering forced upon us because there was no competition. And the 3 speed automatic that our home grown cars had as standard equipment while all the imports had an overdrive. Those were the days




No I have no recollection of the Holden Starfire engine. When did that appear, 1940's ?


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

The starfire was a 173 holden 6 with two cylinders chopped off, came out in the Sunbird Torana and VC Commodore, really was an underpowered, fuel hungry POS. Not very popular in its day. It was introduced to compete with the imported Japanese 4 cylinders, but it didn't.


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Thank you for that precis. As a diesel driver I will stick to that until there is more support for EV's in regional areas.



This is a huge problem, as usual everyone that lives in highly populated areas get terrific infrastructure, because there is enough usage to pay its way, therefore they just want a subsidy to buy the car.
Meanwhile those who live remotely have to bear the cost of the subsidy, yet get very little to no benefit from it.

It is the same with mobile phone services and internet, those in major populated areas want taxpayers to put in fibre to the house for bling speed, those taxpayers in remote areas just want a service. Both groups pay taxes, only one group is getting value for their taxes paid.
Australia has become a nation of very self centred, selfish people IMO.









						Mobile black spots and poor internet holding back regions, report warns
					

The report from Infrastructure Australia shows poor mobile and broadband coverage persists across regional Victoria and the pandemic has further exposed the shortfalls.




					www.theage.com.au
				



_Mobile black spots and poor internet coverage are plaguing regional Victoria and hampering economic development as more people attempt to work from home and conduct business online.

The latest report from Infrastructure Australia shows poor mobile and broadband coverage persists across the regions and the pandemic has further exposed the shortfalls_.

My Son and his family applied for the NBN to supply a service in December, to their rural block, they have been paying for it, but are still yet to receive it. 200 klm south of Perth and can't get a tech to go there.


----------



## JohnDe (17 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> No I have no recollection of the Holden Starfire engine. When did that appear, 1940's ?




Hahaha, yes anyone that did not have any knowledge of this Aussie engine would have figured it was a 1940's design. But no, it was developed in the late 1970's when all other manufacturers were using aluminium, cross flow heads and overhead cams.


----------



## JohnDe (17 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The starfire was a 173 holden 6 with two cylinders chopped off, came out in the Sunbird Torana and VC Commodore, really was an underpowered, fuel hungry POS. Not very popular in its day. It was introduced to compete with the imported Japanese 4 cylinders, but it didn't.




And the lovely Varajet carburetor.


----------



## JohnDe (17 March 2022)

__





						Drive - ABC Brisbane
					

Find out what's been going on in your city today




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> This is a huge problem, as usual everyone that lives in highly populated areas get terrific infrastructure, because there is enough usage to pay its way, therefore they just want a subsidy to buy the car.
> Meanwhile those who live remotely have to bear the cost of the subsidy, yet get very little to no benefit from it.
> 
> It is the same with mobile phone services and internet, those in major populated areas want taxpayers to put in fibre to the house for bling speed, those taxpayers in remote areas just want a service. Both groups pay taxes, only one group is getting value for their taxes paid.
> ...



In a lot of ways city folk subsidise the regional areas, for example all the loss making mobile phone towers and power lines.


----------



## sptrawler (17 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> In a lot of ways city folk subsidise the regional areas, for example all the loss making mobile phone towers and power lines.



That is very true and why I keep saying the Government needs to put this infrastructure in, the private sector wont because there is no return on capital.
I don't how many ways I can say the same thing, a subsidy is a subsidy, whether it is for a person to buy an EV or for an EV charge point put in an area that services a low population density area, we just seem to disagree on where we think the subsidy should be.

The politicians will give the subsidy to those that have the most voting power, that's why they are subsidising the EV's, I personally would rather see more infrastructure spending, but again everyone is different.

A lot of Australia's wealth is derived from the regions, but the wealthy who live in the cities get the main advantage from it, giving subsidies for E.V's is just another example of pandering to City elites.

Many of the City elites derive their income and wealth, from businesses that operate in remote areas, if people weren't prepared to live and work in those areas the companies wouldn't be able to function.

Putting in infrastructure, so that rural people can enjoy some of the benefits those that are fortunate enough to live in cities enjoy, to me isn't too much to ask.


----------



## Value Collector (17 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is very true and why I keep saying the Government needs to put this infrastructure in, the private sector wont because there is no return on capital.
> I don't how many ways I can say the same thing, a subsidy is a subsidy, whether it is for a person to buy an EV or for an EV charge point put in an area that services a low population density area, we just seem to disagree on where we think the subsidy should be.
> 
> The politicians will give the subsidy to those that have the most voting power, that's why they are subsidising the EV's, I personally would rather see more infrastructure spending, but again everyone is different.
> ...



Maybe I will agree with a subsidy to install infrastructure in regional areas to help kick start it, but we don’t need subsidy for petrol stations, so eventually it should be self funding.


----------



## Smurf1976 (17 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe I will agree with a subsidy to install infrastructure in regional areas to help kick start it, but we don’t need subsidy for petrol stations, so eventually it should be self funding.



Long term I agree it can stand on its own two feet.

Short term though, I can see a definite benefit to society in ensuring that EV charging is available everywhere someone might reasonably need it.


----------



## rederob (19 March 2022)

Here's an interesting read from *Sharecafe* on a range of issues in the EV space.

What the article did not mention was how far behind the legacy automakers are compared to Tesla and several Chinese companies.
Getting NEVs into production at scale took Tesla over a decade, and it's still refining *every *single aspect of it's operations. 
As pointed out in the article, newcomers like Rivian face major challenges in getting out their vehicles in the numbers they hoped for unless they have their production and supply chains running smoothly.  You can tell things are not easy when their forecast annual production rate of 150k units drops to a tad over 50K.

From an investment perspective Tesla's probable 2.8M to 3M BEVs in calendar 2022 puts it so far ahead of every single automaker, including those making ICEVs, because while the Toyotas and VWs of the world have better gross numbers, their ICEV sales are lead weights, while Tesla simply cannot make enough BEVs to meet demand. 

The last point not covered in the article is *price*.  By the time legacy automakers get their BEVs into the market Tesla and a number of larger Chinese NEV manufactures will have amortised their production costs, and be able to undercut any offering of a comparable nature from Legacy auto.

My view is that legacy automakers will have to find their own market niches to survive and stop offering dozens of models for their old consumer market.  Why so?  In the premium market would you rather have a *Lucid Air*, or an EV offering from Mercedes, BMW or Audi?  Lucid Air has quickly found a place in this market segment.  So prospective buyers in this niche will be comparing in reverse; ie., how will I know if my Merc EV model will be as good?


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2022)

@rederob I also feel there is a change in peoples perceptions of cars, people no longer see them as a pose item, unlike the last generation, times change and with it so do peoples tastes and desires.
A BMW, RR, Audi, Jaguar or any other car don't have the wow factor , they had 30 years ago, cars are going the way of the mobile phone the one that does the job the best and has the best battery life wins the day IMO. That is why there are only two major players, in the phone space, Apple and Samsung.
Yet 25 years ago Nokia was the major player and Apple nearly went broke, the same will happen with the car industry, there will be companies that can adapt and amalgamate, there will be buyouts and unfortunately bankruptcies.
Big, big changes ahead in the auto and power generation space and it is happening a lot quicker than people think, I had a coffee with a friend today and he arrived in a brand new Tesla, I never expected that.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2022)

I wonder what materials VW sources from Russia/Ukraine, to make the Porsche Taycan.









						Porsche Taycan electric car production paused amid Ukraine conflict
					

Australian supply of the electric sedan could be affected by the factory shutdown.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## JohnDe (19 March 2022)

Drove 800km’s yesterday, cost me $50


----------



## rederob (19 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A BMW, RR, Audi, Jaguar or any other car don't have the wow factor , they had 30 years ago, cars are going the way of the mobile phone the one that does the job the best and has the best battery life wins the day IMO. That is why there are only two major players, in the phone space, Apple and Samsung.



A few years ago Jaguar's I-Pace won *World car of the Year*.
Today it's regarded as a relative heap of manure.

If you are not a Tesla fanboy - or gender neutral alternative - then you are more likely to be into a Hyundai Ioniq 5 or a Kia EV6 if you watch the EV space and want a really good EV in the $70K to $80K range.  In Europe *Skoda's Enyaq *nudges out VW's ID4.  These are not big names here because they are as rare as hen's teeth in Oz, but they  feature heavily in the automotive industry outside of the USA.

The thing about these EVs is that while they are more expensive than their ICEV equivalents, they are also so much better that they are now becoming talking points of themselves, just as Tesla's *Plaid *is known to outperform every other production car in the world.  

I don't know who Tesla's biggest competitor will be by 2025 in the NEV world, but I doubt it will be and on the present legacy automakers.  And I am not so sure about battery technology/range being the driving force (pun intended) as I think that by 2025 the big ticket item will be autonomous driving, and who has the safest platform.  Maybe 2025 is a bit soon, but cars are going to become creature comfort spaces that get us places, and will be internally configured for different purposes, such as working office platforms, or chilling out/relaxation pods until you arrive at you destination.


----------



## rederob (19 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Drove 800km’s yesterday, cost me $50
> 
> View attachment 139236



As more and more people see these numbers and compare them to spending around $100 at the moment to fill up the average sedan for a 500km trip, they will think twice about buying another gas guzzler.

2022 is looking like the straw that broke back of ICEV preference as new model NEV order books continue to be oversubscribed and delivery dates run into 2023.  For fun I just tried to buy a Tesla online and discovered you could not get a firm price or delivery date.  That's unreal for a company conservatively building over 2.5M units this calendar year.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2022)

rederob said:


> As more and more people see these numbers and compare them to spending around $100 at the moment to fill up the average sedan for a 500km trip, they will think twice about buying another gas guzzler.
> 
> 2022 is looking like the straw that broke back of ICEV preference as new model NEV order books continue to be oversubscribed and delivery dates run into 2023.  For fun I just tried to buy a Tesla online and discovered you could not get a firm price or delivery date.  That's unreal for a company conservatively building over 2.5M units this calendar year.



I asked the friend who turned up in a tesla this morning, how long ago did he order it, two months. I thought that was pretty good, ordering the Kona through W.A's biggest dealer, they said about 4 to 5 months, to delivery.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (19 March 2022)

> “The demand [for EVs] is not the issue. This transition into EVs will take probably two product lifecycles, and we are just starting.”
> _Herbert Diess, CEO, Volkswagen AG_






> “It's [driverless cars] a multitrillion-dollar market...In the United States, there's 3 trillion passenger miles each year, and regardless of whether you look at Uber's S1 or AAA stats, the costs of car ownership per mile is between, call it, $0.60 to $0.80, and so you can do the math there. It gets big pretty quickly."
> _Kyle Vogt, CEO, Cruise LLC [self-driving car company]_






> “Less and less [sic] people can afford vehicles. Electrification is going to make it worse, actually. So, to me, the true disruption of Henry Ford's model of a Model T where anyone can own a Ford, even our factory workers, is really shared mobility, where people stop owning vehicles and they start renting rides.”
> _James Farley, CEO, Ford Motor Company_




from Naos' weekly _*"CEO insights"*_




__





						NAOS CEO Insights
					






					blog.naos.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> from Naos' weekly _*"CEO insights"*_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is spot on Dona, in Cities with good public transport, the move away from cars completely will be accelerating.
The wife and I, when travelling between Mandurah and Perth(approx 60klm), chose to use electric scooters, public transport and bicycles when we get to our destination in Perth. 
This is mainly due to the terrible drive up on the 'freeway', which is more like a slow moving funeral procession, for a lot of the way. So it is easier to leave the car in Mandurah.
Our second son and his partner live in fairly close proximity to the CBD and only use electric scooters/public transport.


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I asked the friend who turned up in a tesla this morning, how long ago did he order it, two months. I thought that was pretty good, ordering the Kona through W.A's biggest dealer, they said about 4 to 5 months, to delivery.



My Dad ordered a model 3, and had it in 2 weeks, that was over a year ago though, before all the supply issues, and it was just a stock standard white one, I think they had a few unallocated ones on a shipment.


----------



## bk1 (19 March 2022)

Jim Farley is spot on.
If the Model T democratized vehicle ownership for the masses, then its possible electrification will have an opposite effect. The outcomes are only vaguely appreciated or understood.
Perhaps only when the gigafactories acheive scale can any of these vehicles be within reach of the average worker. In the meantime only the wealthy swap out their Nissan Patrol for a Mercedes EQS, $125k anyone? (I'm guessing here... but i saw one the other day). 

I can't visualise myself spending that much money on *any* car


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2022)

bk1 said:


> Jim Farley is spot on.
> If the Model T democratized vehicle ownership for the masses, then its possible electrification will have an opposite effect. The outcomes are only vaguely appreciated or understood.
> Perhaps only when the gigafactories acheive scale can any of these vehicles be within reach of the average worker. In the meantime only the wealthy swap out their Nissan Patrol for a Mercedes EQS, $125k anyone? (I'm guessing here... but i saw one the other day).
> 
> I can't visualise myself spending that much money on *any* car



Plenty of Ev’s for less than $125k on the market.

Feel the opposite about EV’s, being able to make your own fuel (solar power) and not be as tied to the energy giants certainly make we feel pretty free.

When looking at the price of EV’s keep in mind that the sticker price (purchase price) os only part of the cost you pay for owning a car.

EV’s have significantly lower life time costs than petrol cars when you factor in Fuel and Maintenance costs.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Plenty of Ev’s for less than $125k on the market.
> 
> Feel the opposite about EV’s, being able to make your own fuel (solar power) and not be as tied to the energy giants certainly make we feel pretty free.
> 
> ...




What are the comprehensive insurance rates like ?


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> What are the comprehensive insurance rates like ?



Similar to any other car of similar value, but as modern vehicles continue to prove to be safer, insurance rates should drop.

Tesla is actually getting into the insurance business themselves because they believe their cars are safer than average so deserve cheaper pricing.

Warren Buffett has also listed the continued improvement in the safety profile of EV’s as a risk to his auto insurance business over time.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> What are the comprehensive insurance rates like ?



The RAC in W.A gives a discount for an E.V, but you have to take into consideration that the insured sum, will be much higher as they cost a lot more for the same vehicle e.g an ICE MG same spec will be a lot cheaper than the EV model.
So it is difficult to compare apples with apples, a $60k EV insured with the RAC, will be cheaper to insure than a $60k ICE car, but they wont be the same car if that makes sense.
I think the fact it is multiple times simpler, to improve the safety systems in an EV, than in an ICE vehicle due to the characteristics, it wont be long before ICE cars carry an insurance premium above E.V's
I'm not saying that because I'm pro E.V anti ICE, I'm saying that as someone with and instrumentation and control plus electrical background.
It is simple to write code, to use DC braking on an electrical motor that can react faster than humans, more acurately than humans and modulate the amount of braking in response to varying inputs.
In an ICE car, to slow the car relies on the braking system, be that discs or drums, they can't be controlled to the degree an electric motor can, brakes fade, brake fluid boils when heavy braking is used, abs control has to use modulation, it is just light years behind the control that can be obtained using feedback loops on electrical motors.
The other problem that will cause is, as the ICE vehicles cause more accidents, because they can't react at the speed E.V's can, how long will it be before punitive penalties are applied to ICE vehicles, what form the penalties come in who knows? Maybe higher insurance, or maybe higher registration and third party insurance.
The other important thing to remember EV's have just started the journey, but the electronic control systems that operate them and can control them are right up their with your best computers, the EV is really starting off where the ICE is at the limit of its development.
The EV will develop in 20 years as far as the ICE developed in 100, so in 20 years time EV's will be nothing like what is being pumped out now IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The RAC in W.A gives a discount for an E.V, but you have to take into consideration that the insured sum, will be much higher as they cost a lot more for the same vehicle e.g an ICE MG same spec will be a lot cheaper than the EV model.
> So it is difficult to compare apples with apples, a $60k EV insured with the RAC, will be cheaper to insure than a $60k ICE car, but they wont be the same car if that makes sense.



Costs don’t scale up perfectly to though.

Eg 

it might cost $500 to insure a $5,000 car.

But only $1,000 to insure $50,000 car.

The reason for this is that the replacement cost of your car only makes up part of the risk the insurer faces, because you are also insuring the cost of the other cars in the road you might damage and all the other buildings and bodies you might hit.

So a $500 car that causes a 5 car pile up will cause almost the same amount of damage as a $50,000 car that causes a 5 car pile up.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Costs don’t scale up perfectly to though.
> 
> Eg
> 
> ...



I think that will come more into play as the number of EV's increases, at the moment they are more of a novelty so statistics will be limited, however with the price of petrol the way it is ATM I think the number of people thinking and dwelling on an EV purchase will be exponential.


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think that will come more into play as the number of EV's increases, at the moment they are more of a novelty so statistics will be limited, however with the price of petrol the way it is ATM I think the number of people thinking and dwelling on an EV purchase will be exponential.



What I describe there is the same for all cars, simply pointing out the a car that cost 10 times more to buy doesn’t cost 10 times more to insure.


----------



## sptrawler (19 March 2022)

Yes I misinterpreted, I thought we were talking about insuring EV's Vs ICE vehicles, so was thinking mainly in relation to your last line and $5k Ice vehicles causing multicar pile ups.
I wasn't think along the lines of general insurance for all vehicles.


----------



## JohnDe (19 March 2022)




----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> View attachment 139245



Not for you and I.


----------



## rederob (19 March 2022)

bk1 said:


> Jim Farley is spot on.
> If the Model T democratized vehicle ownership for the masses, then its possible electrification will have an opposite effect. The outcomes are only vaguely appreciated or understood.
> Perhaps only when the gigafactories acheive scale can any of these vehicles be within reach of the average worker. In the meantime only the wealthy swap out their Nissan Patrol for a Mercedes EQS, $125k anyone? (I'm guessing here... but i saw one the other day).
> 
> I can't visualise myself spending that much money on *any* car



Farley is completely wrong.
Chinese are already - without gigafactories - knocking out roadworthy EVs from US $5K upwards and bringing motor transport to millions who only ever dreamed of owning a car.
Do you have any idea about the global car market or do you just make up what you want to believe?

Also, as @Value Collector points out, lifetime ownership costs are already cheaper than comparable ICEVs.  These data have previously been posted on this thread so would you like to see them again?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Not for you and I.



Have you ever hauled a caravan ?

Besides as you pointed out before, once the Ukraine war is over, petrol will be cheap as chips again .


----------



## JohnDe (19 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Have you ever hauled a caravan ?
> 
> Besides as you pointed out before, once the Ukraine war is over, petrol will be cheap as chips again .




I have no interest in a caravan, and neither does 75% of road travellers


----------



## JohnDe (19 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Not for you and I.




That’s what my wife said when I showed her in the bar this afternoon. 

We leave on Monday & thinking about making a detour of about 400kms, so might have to scrounge another $25


----------



## Value Collector (19 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Have you ever hauled a caravan ?
> 
> Besides as you pointed out before, once the Ukraine war is over, petrol will be cheap as chips again .



Nope, I don’t own a caravan, but as pointed out before you can haul a caravan with an EV if you want.

I wouldn’t say petrol will be cheap as chips, even before the war it cost alot to fill the tank, but either way the higher it stays the quicker EV’s pay for them selves in comparison


----------



## Smurf1976 (19 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The EV will develop in 20 years as far as the ICE developed in 100, so in 20 years time EV's will be nothing like what is being pumped out now IMO.



Absolutely.

EV's are coming from a point where cars as such are already extremely highly developed such that further development needs only focus on very specific aspects of it.

Only aspect I'm really not convinced about is self-driving. 

As a technology OK but I wouldn't be surprised if human driven vehicles end up as one of those things that still exists in practice a very long time after logic says they shouldn't.  Time will tell but I won't be surprised if that's the case, it becomes one of those entrenched things that logic says shouldn't exist but still does in practice.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> EV's are coming from a point where cars as such are already extremely highly developed such that further development needs only focus on very specific aspects of it.
> 
> ...



Very much like planes, where most crashes are caused by pilots, but there is no way people will like the idea of flying overseas, or even interstate without a pilot. 🤣
It is a comfort zone thing, self driving trains are o.k, because we put in the tracks and it can only go where the tracks go, so we have some control.
With self driving cars or planes, they can go where the hell they like, we don't like that, it isn't comfortable. 🤪


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2022)

Is this thing legit?








						Save fuel with hydrogen HHO generators and engine controllers
					

Fuel savers. HHO Hydrogen generators and electronics to save fuel in all diesel and gasoline engines. Guaranteed improvement in fuel economy.




					www.hho-1.com
				




I'm starting to think something like the above or straight out hydrogen will make more sense then evs alone.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Have you ever hauled a caravan ?



No, I've seen enough episodes of Top Gear / The Grand Tour to know that caravans are extraordinarily dangerous and usually fall apart at highway speeds, catch fire, flood, roll off a cliff or get dropped from a crane so I'm keeping well clear of them. Dangerous.


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> With self driving cars or planes, they can go where the hell they like, we don't like that, it isn't comfortable. 🤪



I'm just thinking it'll be one of those things that human driving sticks around.

Much like the idea of washing dishes by hand, burning wood to keep warm and so on. One of those things that'll still exist long after logic says it ought to have ceased.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Is this thing legit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The problem is moxjo there are two parts to the issue, one a lot of energy is wasted using electricity to make hydrogen, but hydrogen is a good storage medium for energy.
Two cars don't need a huge amount of energy to drive them, therefore a battery can store enough and it doesn't waste any energy making it, so for cars batteries are great plug it in it sucks up a charge and can do 500klm.
Now with bigger energy consumers like B doubles, hauling freight across Australia hydrogen makes sense, fast fill times low weight and minimal space, that counteracts the loss of efficiency making it, if you used batteries that weren't swap out pack's the time lost charging would be significant and then the weight and space would be an issue.


----------



## qldfrog (20 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The problem is moxjo there are two parts to the issue, one a lot of energy is wasted using electricity to make hydrogen, but hydrogen is a good storage medium for energy.
> Two cars don't need a huge amount of energy to drive them, therefore a battery can store enough and it doesn't waste any energy making it, so for cars batteries are great plug it in it sucks up a charge and can do 500klm.
> Now with bigger energy consumers like B doubles, hauling freight across Australia hydrogen makes sense, fast fill times low weight and minimal space, that counteracts the loss of efficiency making it, if you used batteries that weren't swap out pack's the time lost charging would be significant and then the weight and space would be an issue.



What is this idea of
 a lot of energy is wasted doing h2 from electricity..not really true as fars i remember, all this energy is retrieved the other way when generating electricity from h2?
Note i can not check much here now but i think this is true.
After whether we use h2 in ice would indeed add the losses of ice but considering you do not have toine lithium, just use pure h2...i doubt there is a fundamental issue there.
Not part of the talk and replacing fuel in your car by ammonia does not give billions profits to Musk or WEC but otherwise pretty good bet in term of not producing CO2..if this was the aim


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Very much like planes, where most crashes are caused by pilots, but there is no way people will like the idea of flying overseas, or even interstate without a pilot. 🤣
> It is a comfort zone thing, self driving trains are o.k, because we put in the tracks and it can only go where the tracks go, so we have some control.
> With self driving cars or planes, they can go where the hell they like, we don't like that, it isn't comfortable. 🤪



I doubt if automation would have saved QF32, but pilots are far more capable than the average driver so its better that most drivers are taken out of the equation as much as possible. There will always be hoons who want to do 0-100 kmh in 2 seconds all the time and I can see a new 'supercar' outcry like we had in the 70's with 'concerned citizens' calling for the end of high performance EVS.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Is this thing legit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm reading that it's a scam


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2022)

*Very much like planes, where most crashes are caused by pilots, but there is no way people will like the idea of flying overseas, or even interstate without a pilot. *🤣


----------



## rederob (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt if automation would have saved QF32, but pilots are far more capable than the average driver so its better that most drivers are taken out of the equation as much as possible. There will always be hoons who want to do 0-100 kmh in 2 seconds all the time and I can see a new 'supercar' outcry like we had in the 70's with 'concerned citizens' calling for the end of high performance EVS.



Given that we have had Teslas doing 0-100km/h in around 3 seconds for some years now and there has been no outcry, I don't think we will have a problem on that front.   Moreover, with the pace of technology outstripping our brains it won't be too many years before all vehicles are tracked and the need for speed guns and radar units disappear and there is an automatic withdrawal from our bank account into State Revenue!

Regarding autonomous driving though, with FLIR and LIDAR plus a range of other present sensors in vehicles there is no way a single driver has anywhere near the awareness that technology now offers, nor the reactions time.  Moreover, as more and more millions of kilometres of data on driving experiences are racked up by proposed autonomous driving packages, machine learning will ensure there are levels of safety inbuilt to the software that uses decision making trees that give the most safe outcome to the trickiest situations in fractions of a second.  The only issue beyond that is the level of redundancy needed to deal with system failure - a bit like how we all can backup our PCs so we don't lose everything.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Given that we have had Teslas doing 0-100km/h in around 3 seconds for some years now and there has been no outcry, I don't think we will have a problem on that front.




With the tiny amount of EV's on the road now this is not an issue. Yes, I agree that the authoritarian State will continue to invade our personal liberties and track our every movement for revenue to replace fuel tax and speeding offences etc. Of course regulations will ensure that self drive software never exceeds the speed limit, so there will be increased mileage tax to replace that lost revenue as well !


----------



## rederob (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> With the tiny amount of EV's on the road now this is not an issue. Yes, I agree that the authoritarian State will continue to invade our personal liberties and track our every movement for revenue to replace fuel tax and speeding offences etc. Of course regulations will ensure that self drive software never exceeds the speed limit, so there will be increased mileage tax to replace that lost revenue as well !



States will actually save billions in each year as a result of less road trauma and lesser hospitalisation costs by both number and duration.  Rehabilitation costs will also decrease significantly.  Also, as often mentioned in this thread, cleaner air will further improve health and decrease workplace absences.

Productivity will also increase, thereby improving international competitiveness.  The pluses of the EV transition to our economy warrant much greater incentivisation, yet are ignored by our present federal government.


----------



## Value Collector (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> With the tiny amount of EV's on the road now this is not an issue. Yes, I agree that the authoritarian State will continue to invade our personal liberties and track our every movement for revenue to replace fuel tax and speeding offences etc. Of course regulations will ensure that self drive software never exceeds the speed limit, so there will be increased mileage tax to replace that lost revenue as well !



To be honest I will just be happy when the majority of vehicles are EV just because the noise of petrol cars is obnoxious.

Hoons will always be hoons, but atleast they will be quite.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> To be honest I will just be happy when the majority of vehicles are EV just because the noise of petrol cars is obnoxious.
> 
> Hoons will always be hoons, but atleast they will be quite.




Quiet so !

Anyone with a brain recognises the benefits of EV's and their advantages over ICE vehicles and that they will be the dominant vehicle in as soon as 20 years and the sooner the better.

However as I've said before, it's a matter of whether our government gives sufficient incentives to allow adequate numbers of vehicles into the country at affordable prices with sufficient infrastructure to service their charging requirements and maybe even producing parts for them instead of importing everything.

I'm not confident that the current government is really tuned into the vibe of the EV revolution, hopefully others may be, but this is a technical thread not a political one, so I'll leave it there.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> What is this idea of
> a lot of energy is wasted doing h2 from electricity..not really true as fars i remember, all this energy is retrieved the other way when generating electricity from h2?
> Note i can not check much here now but i think this is true.
> After whether we use h2 in ice would indeed add the losses of ice but considering you do not have toine lithium, just use pure h2...i doubt there is a fundamental issue there.
> Not part of the talk and replacing fuel in your car by ammonia does not give billions profits to Musk or WEC but otherwise pretty good bet in term of not producing CO2..if this was the aim



Very roughly, a new electrolysis plant today delivers energy efficiency of *around 80%*. That is, the energy value of the hydrogen produced is about 80% of the electricity used to split the water molecule.
They are improving all the time, when I was in my apprenticeship the electrolyser we used at the power station from memory was 30% efficient.
Also if the amount of renewables generate more power than can be used or stored, then hydrogen production and efficiency becomes a moot point, you might as well make hydrogen as waste the available energy.
As I've said since the beginning of this thread, I think battery E.V's will be a stop gap, until H2 production reduces the cost of production to make it competitive. There will be a problem with battery materials same as every other resource it is finite, hydrogen is extremely plentiful so IMO it is only a matter of time, but that is what we all will run out of and why I'm buying an EV now.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> I'm reading that it's a scam



Gas injection in diesels has been around for a long time, I had LPG injection on a 1996 Land Rover Discovery, when they say it increases you fuel range that's true.
But it all boils back to how much you pay for the fuel, the installation and the amount of extra distance you get. The LPG injection on the LR really wasn't worth the installation cost.
The same will go for this electrolyser, how much does it cost to buy, how much hydrogen does it make and how much does that hydrogen improve your consumption.
Looking at the size of the water bottle, I wouldn't think much H2 would be produced, but hey who knows.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Gas injection in diesels has been around for a long time, I had LPG injection on a 1996 Land Rover Discovery, when they say it increases you fuel range that's true.
> But it all boils back to how much you pay for the fuel, the installation and the amount of extra distance you get. The LPG injection on the LR really wasn't worth the installation cost.
> The same will go for this electrolyser, how much does it cost to buy, how much hydrogen does it make and how much does that hydrogen improve your consumption.
> Looking at the size of the water bottle, I wouldn't think much H2 would be produced, but hey who knows.



Apparently the energy to make the gas is equal to the amount of energy it provides. So unless it's created by solar or something it's supposedly a waste of time.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Apparently the energy to make the gas is equal to the amount of energy it provides. So unless it's created by solar or something it's supposedly a waste of time.



Yes sounds about right, all you get is the extra distance that amount of H2 generates into usable fuel, with the LPG injection it would have been better and cheaper just putting in a long range tank, but it was an interesting exercise.


----------



## Value Collector (20 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Apparently the energy to make the gas is equal to the amount of energy it provides. So unless it's created by solar or something it's supposedly a waste of time.



Yep, it falls into the perpetual motion fallacy, it would require an external energy source, because if it’s capturing energy from the system it’s meant to be powering, you will lose more than you create.

Mythbusters did a show on this exact gadget, they built one and tested it, and the car with the device had reduced mileage.

If it worked to capture energy that would normally be lost eg like regen braking then it would be different, but that’s not how it works.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

Interesting idea by suggested by the French, low income E.V leasing scheme, I look forward to reading the details if it eventuates.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...o-wean-drivers-off-gasoline?srnd=premium-asia
The French president pledged to develop a state-sponsored EV leasing program for low-income households if he wins re-election next month. The proposal was part of a 4-hour-long pitch to voters unveiled at a press conference on Thursday outside Paris.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Quiet so !
> 
> Anyone with a brain recognises the benefits of EV's and their advantages over ICE vehicles and that they will be the dominant vehicle in as soon as 20 years and the sooner the better.
> 
> ...




Following on a bit, I see no reason why an enlightened Australian government shouldn't approach Elon with a proposal to produce Tesla vehicles in Australia, along the lines that the government will pay the up front cost of the production facilities, factories , assembly lines, robots etc which we then own and lease back to Tesla for a percentage of the sale price of each car produced.

That will relieve Tesla of a large capital investment, while giving the taxpayers ownership of a valuable asset which we could lease to someone else if Musk chose to depart.

Win-win I'd say ?


----------



## rederob (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Following on a bit, I see no reason why an enlightened Australian government shouldn't approach Elon with a proposal to produce Tesla vehicles in Australia, along the lines that the government will pay the up front cost of the production facilities, factories , assembly lines, robots etc which we then own and lease back to Tesla for a percentage of the sale price of each car produced.
> 
> That will relieve Tesla of a large capital investment, while giving the taxpayers ownership of a valuable asset which we could lease to someone else if Musk chose to depart.
> 
> Win-win I'd say ?



Why Tesla?
There are more affordable EVs.

Anyway, these arrangements need to be thoroughly thought through.  For starters we no longer have a supply chain, so who sorts that out? Batteries and chips could be problematic.
Why would a cloned "x"EV produced here be cheaper, or even as well manufactured given we have little expertise?
The NEV market is going to get more competitive over time, so we might be buying into a white elephant.

  We don't have the ability to scale production to efficiencies which can be reached overseas.  Speaking of which, getting anything made here to overseas markets adds extra costs.

I'm struggling to see who wins.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Why Tesla?
> There are more affordable EVs.
> 
> Anyway, these arrangements need to be thoroughly thought through.  For starters we no longer have a supply chain, so who sorts that out? Batteries and chips could be problematic.
> ...




Tesla was just an example. If other manufacturers were interested they could jump in. The point is that we don't have to re-invent the wheel, we piggyback on a developed product.

The Australian consumer wins because we get first crack at cars made here, not picking up the dregs until other markets have been satisfied.


----------



## Value Collector (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Following on a bit, I see no reason why an enlightened Australian government shouldn't approach Elon with a proposal to produce Tesla vehicles in Australia, along the lines that the government will pay the up front cost of the production facilities, factories , assembly lines, robots etc which we then own and lease back to Tesla for a percentage of the sale price of each car produced.
> 
> That will relieve Tesla of a large capital investment, while giving the taxpayers ownership of a valuable asset which we could lease to someone else if Musk chose to depart.
> 
> Win-win I'd say ?



The only problem I see is that 90% of the production would have to be exported to make the factory viable, and the closet market is Asia, So it makes more sense for the factory to be in Asia, where only 10% of the production needs to be exported here.

How much $$$ worth of subsidy each year needs to be applied to over come that natural disadvantage I don’t know, and I don’t know if the average Aussie would be happy subsidising Tesla, which ever party adopted the plan would be killed in the negative media generated by the other side.


----------



## rederob (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Tesla was just an example. If other manufacturers were interested they could jump in. The point is that we don't have to re-invent the wheel, we piggyback on a developed product.
> 
> The Australian consumer wins because we get first crack at cars made here, not picking up the dregs until other markets have been satisfied.



Assuming it was policy - which it's not - then the lead time to have something coming off a production line would be 2 years minimum.
That's also assuming every aspect of the supply chain was in place.
By then we will be spoiled for choice here, although we may still need to pre-order for certain models due to most cars overseas being made for LHD markets.
But this is the biggest impediment:


Value Collector said:


> The only problem I see is that 90% of the production would have to be exported to make the factory viable, and the closet market is Asia, So it makes more sense for the factory to be in Asia, where only 10% of the production needs to be exported here.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The only problem I see is that 90% of the production would have to be exported to make the factory viable




What gives you that idea ?

We once had 3 manufacturers servicing a market much smaller than today.


----------



## moXJO (20 March 2022)

I think making batteries here might be viable. That's probably about it.


----------



## Value Collector (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> What gives you that idea ?
> 
> We once had 3 manufacturers servicing a market much smaller than today.



Those 3 manufacturers Australian operations were all unprofitable, and were supported by incentives and tariffs.

The Tesla factory will want to aim to produce 1 Million cars per year so that economies of scale exist and costs are lower per car.

But, Australia only buys about 1 Million vehicles per year in total, (that’s not just cars, that’s trucks and motorbikes too), and Tesla isn’t going to capture 100% of the market, they might be lucky to get 10% of the market.

So out of their 1 Million cars produced, 900K will need to be sold elsewhere.

So instead of producing 1M in Asia, and sending 10% here, it would be reversed, eg produce 1M here and send 90% to Asia, That’s going to produce a situation that’s not economically ideal, and would require either

1. Asians to be willing to pay more for an Australian made car

2. Tesla to accept smaller margins or losses

3. the government to subsidise each car we send to Asia.

4. The government to subsidise each car sold here due to a smaller inefficient factory being built to begin with.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The Tesla factory will want to aim to produce 1 Million cars per year so that economies of scale exist and costs are lower per car.




How did you arrive at that figure of 1 million per year ?

Under the plan I outlined, the manufacturer

a. would save on initial capital outlay by not having to pay for the establishment of factories and production lines

b. would be the leading seller of EV's in a reasonably wealthy country currently starved of sufficient supply.

I reckon those factors would counterbalance the relatively small market size.


----------



## mullokintyre (20 March 2022)

The Kia EV6, which seems to fit most of what my wife wants/needs in a car, is now sold out for three years of production.
They are just not taking orders.
The Ioniq 5 which was her next choice,  is also not taking orders.
This may be  ok in the future, as according  to MSN 





> South Korea's Hyundai has launched the first electric car assembly plant in Indonesia, as the Southeast Asian archipelago looks to exploit an abundance of resources used in EV production.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Indonesia, along with Pakistan, India Thailand, Malaysia Kapan the UK and a hanfull of South eastern African countries drive on the  left hand side. So if they are making vehicles, they may be more inclined to make RHD versions for OZ.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> How did you arrive at that figure of 1 million per year ?
> 
> Under the plan I outlined, the manufacturer
> 
> ...



I love the idea of building cars here, but the reality is if we take a large Ford for example, they make 4.18 million cars at the Dearborn Plant in Michigan. 
They sell all those cars in the U.S, they don't have to ship them, they can just train them, drive them, truck them.
In Australia we bought 71,000 Ford vehicles, so we would mean have to put 4,105,000 on ships to take them to the market, a car carrier carries 8,500 ships so that is a lot of shipping costs.
So we can't compete on a cost basis by a lot, for Ford build the cars in the U.S they only need 8 ships to send 71,000 cars here.
If Ford built the cars here, they would sell 71,000 of them and would have to rent 500 ships to send the rest to the U.S.
It just isn't a big enough market place, unless you stop imported cars coming in, or add a huge tariff to them to make our low volume cost base competitive.


----------



## Value Collector (20 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> How did you arrive at that figure of 1 million per year ?
> 
> Under the plan I outlined, the manufacturer
> 
> ...



1 million per year is the targets for their existing factories, if you suggested they build a factory making say 100k a year instead it probably wouldn’t be worth their time and effort, it would be a distraction.

They would save on capital out lay under your plan, but capital is currently cheap, they can borrow at about 1%, so it would probably require further subsidies to reduce the build cost if they don’t make enough each year to get the economies of scale, or subsidies to cover the cost of shipping the excess cars to Asia.

We have pretty good supply of Teslas, no worse than any other country really, the only shortage is teslas actual production, but they are building factories as fast as they can, and capital isn’t the issue, labour is.


----------



## sptrawler (20 March 2022)

My apologies for the spelling and grammar in the last post, auto correction must have been on, phones aren't great for long posts.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> They would save on capital out lay under your plan, but capital is currently cheap,



Inflation is coming...


----------



## JohnDe (21 March 2022)

More than enough EVs coming this year 









						New Electric Cars for Australia: Everything coming in 2022 and beyond
					

The EV revolution is gaining strength in Australia, which means greater diversity and choice for buyers




					www.whichcar.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> More than enough EVs coming this year
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Lots of models, less so about numbers and waiting time.


----------



## qldfrog (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Inflation is coming...



Or is here already


----------



## rederob (21 March 2022)

*The 3 finalists in 2022 World Car of the Year are all electric*. Unless you want to watch all the separate category finalists, then jump straight to 10:50 in the video below:

The category winners and overall winner will be announced on 13 April.
My pick is the *Ioniq 5*.  It's unique in so many of its features, and its design is a weird blend of quirky contemporary moderness.
I think Australians got to order a total of 200 in 2022, and if you want to join the queue for the next batch you will get this message today (21/3/2022):


Teslas were not included from what I can gather on the basis of their models being upgrades rather than new releases.  But I may be wrong as there was no other explanation offered.


----------



## Value Collector (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Inflation is coming...



That works against your plan, because the higher the inflation rate, they better off they would be buy owning the plant themselves, rather than renting from the government, because at some point in the future what ever deal they did with the Aussie government would expire, and they would have to rent or buy the market at the much higher prices due to inflation.

However if they borrowed the money today at say 2% for 10 years, the capital value of the plant would increase with inflation.

But could you imagine the political up roar of the Aussie government paid for the full capital outlay of a Tesla factory, and gave it to Tesla rent free.


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That works against your plan, because the higher the inflation rate, they better off they would be buy owning the plant themselves, rather than renting from the government, because at some point in the future what ever deal they did with the Aussie government would expire, and they would have to rent or buy the market at the much higher prices due to inflation.
> 
> However if they borrowed the money today at say 2% for 10 years, the capital value of the plant would increase with inflation.
> 
> But could you imagine the political up roar of the Aussie government paid for the full capital outlay of a Tesla factory, and gave it to Tesla rent free.




Doesn't make sense.

If they (Tesla)  don't outlay any capital expense in the first place, they don't have to repay anything. If the agreement expires and they don't want to renew, they simply walk away and they don't have to find buyers for the plant .

If they are making a profit from each vehicle they should be happy, they basically have no amortization costs with the production facilities and they don't have to pay for the upkeep of the factories and machines..


----------



## Value Collector (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Doesn't make sense.
> 
> If they (Tesla)  don't outlay any capital expense in the first place, they don't have to repay anything. If the agreement expires and they don't want to renew, they simply walk away and they don't have to find buyers for the plant .
> 
> If they are making a profit from each vehicle they should be happy, they basically have no amortization costs with the production facilities and they don't have to pay for the upkeep of the factories and machines..



What I am saying is that if Tesla has to go to all the effort to build and set up a factory in Australia, they will be sacrificing the ability to set one up some where else, because it takes a certain amount of brain power out of the organisation, it’s not just money, and if they have a 10 year deal, after 10 years who ever is in power  the government might decide to charge them rent or want to sell the plant at market prices.

All I am saying is that when Tesla can borrow money for 10 years at low rates inflation works against your plan, because buying the plant themselves would create a capital gain for them over time, and reduce future cost.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The Kia EV6, which seems to fit most of what my wife wants/needs in a car, is now sold out for three years of production.
> They are just not taking orders.
> The Ioniq 5 which was her next choice,  is also not taking orders.
> This may be  ok in the future, as according  to MSN
> ...



As I research what is available as I search for my wife's Mazda CX 5 replacement, I have prepared a spreadsheet with some of the relevant criteria for many of the EV cars available in OZ.
The dimensions of the CX5 would be the sort of  dimensions for its replacement.
First of all, she wants All Wheel Drive.
Having had a succession of AWD Suburus prior to the Mazda, its something she regards as critical.
Given that we live in the country, she does a lot of country driving, range is extremely high on the list.
Plus we have some pretty marginal roads to negotiate, so ground clearance is another important factor.
As we often have to cart around grandkids and all the 25 tons of ancillary children's accessories, not only being able to fit at least two children's car seats in, plus have access to get the little critters out without having to be a contortionist would be go no go factor.
Then comes things like the comfort factor on longer trips (some of her HMR's are 300km round rips),  the colour (only likes white cars, they are more visible on the road), then basic things like A/C , heater/demist, all around cameras lane assist etc etc.
Price is not that high on the important factor list, though she would baulk at paying anything with 6 figures in it.
Whatever she ends up choosing, its going to be along wait to get it in the driveway.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2022)

The Defence Force weighs in to the EV debate.

(Has VC called some old mates ?   )

Just stating the bleeding obvious really, I hope someone in power takes notice.









						Defence experts call for EVs, green transport acceleration over concerns foreign oil a 'massive' weakness
					

Defence analysts are calling for Australia to speed up its transition to EVs and green transport, saying the country's heavy reliance on imported oil is a "massive" security weakness.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## qldfrog (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The Defence Force weighs in to the EV debate.
> 
> (Has VC called some old mates ?   )
> 
> ...



Well it is not tomorrow we will see EV tanks do we😂
When all we buy is coming from China, including most of EVs bit and pieces i think oil is the last of our worries


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Well it is not tomorrow we will see EV tanks do we😂
> When all we buy is coming from China, including most of EVs bit and pieces i think oil is the last of our worries




The EV tanks will have to carry portable petrol generators for recharge !


----------



## Value Collector (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The EV tanks will have to carry portable petrol generators for recharge !



Or run on renewable hydrogen based synthetic fuels, or ammonia like what FMG is converting ships to, or hydrogen fuel cells, it doesn’t have to just be battery EV’s.

Remember some of the largest pieces of military equipment in world (aircraft carriers) are already EV’s, that only need refueling every 20 years, because they have a nuclear reactor creating their electricity.

—————————————
But also, just having a large section of the civilian economy running on EV’s increases or security, it means that if shipments get delayed or are limited to what can be escorted in by the navy, then most of the economy can continue running and the limited supplies can be rationed to the other areas.

Eg. My personal driving round won’t be taking any fuel away from other areas.


----------



## mullokintyre (21 March 2022)

Was looking at the Honda version of  an EV. 
From the initial photographs, I won't be rushing out to get one.
Apart from its ordinary range, I can't believe they have stuck the battery pack between the two axles and below the floor level.
An accident waiting to happen.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (21 March 2022)

The internet is a wonderful thing, but sometimes there is some seriously poor information and products put out.




Maybe its a free for all in nuw zulund, but I was taught in my truckin days you never tow anything of greater weight than the vehicle doing the towing, and the weight of the S varies between 1961 to 2250 kg depending on options.

Secondly, it must be fitted with  electric brakes if towing more than 750 kg.
According to Whichcar, Teslas  model S has a braked towing capacity of 2250 kg.
The problem is, I could not find what the Tesla GCM is.
As many unfortunate trailer/caravan towers have found out,  the GCM ( combined mass of the mloaded vehicle and towed vehicle), will often prohibit towing up to the theoretical limit.
For instance, most of the current crop of 4wd utes boast a towing capacity of 3.5 tonnes.
Howoever , as most are limited to a GCM of 6 tonne or less, to actually tow a 3.5 tonne  load, the towing vehicle has to be 2500 kg or less.
The unladen mass of my ford Ranger is 2350 kg, which means after I fill the 140 litre tank with fuel, neither my wife or I are allowed in the vehicle.
There are also axle weight limits both front and rear, which may well be overloaded once the 10% ball weight is added on the towbar.
I doubt it would be legally sold or fitted in Oz.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (21 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The internet is a wonderful thing, but sometimes there is some seriously poor information and products put out.
> 
> View attachment 139301
> 
> ...



There is this one available in australia, they are saying up to 1850kg of towing, so you should be able to tow two horse float.









						Tesla Model S Detachable Towbar MDC10748
					

Tow bar specifics:   Part number:MDC10748  Towbar system:Automatic Vertical Detachable  Assembly weight:-  Nose Weight:75 kg  Braked Towing Weight:1850 kg  Unbraked Towing Weight:750 kg  Bumper Cuts:Non visible  Fitting Instructions:Included  Year of Vehicle:2012 >  ADR Quality:Yes   Fits With...




					australiatowbars.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (21 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> There is this one available in australia, they are saying up to 1850kg of towing, so you should be able to tow two horse float.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the blurb on the website says "ADR Quality", not ADR compliant.
That European styled gooseneck look far too small to  pass muster.
Mick


----------



## moXJO (21 March 2022)

More video on his profile


----------



## SirRumpole (21 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> There is this one available in australia, they are saying up to 1850kg of towing, so you should be able to tow two horse float.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




$3,595 for a towbar ? 

Is that a joke ?


----------



## Boggo (21 March 2022)

And if you make a distasteful post on social media your Tesla will be disabled for 7 days


----------



## Value Collector (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> $3,595 for a towbar ?
> 
> Is that a joke ?



Yep, it seems expensive doesn't it, I imagine the company making them is doing pretty low volume because there are not that many model S Teslas around, and very few of the people that own them probably want or need a Tow bar, there is one for about half the price, but it isn't rated for the same weight, I chose the heavy duty one because towing a horse float was being discussed in M's first post.

But, if all you want is something to put a bike hitch on or tow a jets there seems to be cheaper options.


----------



## qldfrog (21 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The EV tanks will have to carry portable petrol generators for recharge !



When you think about it:
 actually, non Nuclear powered submarines are just that: EVs resurfacing from time to time to start diesel generators and recharge batteries...
Do not give that tank idea to our Gretas, or we will see the west go to war with power cable extensions next...


----------



## wayneL (21 March 2022)

Discuss


----------



## Smurf1976 (21 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Discuss



I'm familiar enough with Australia's power stations to say that's not an accurate representation of any of them so it's definitely overseas. Since someone seems to have placed a castle to the right of the cooling towers it's most likely somewhere in Europe.    

Second issue, for some reason there's black stuff coming out the cooling towers. That's truly alarming.....

Third, the electric car for some reason still seems to have a fuel filler flap.

Fourth, the driver seems to be driving down the middle of the road and not keeping in lane. That's dangerous regardless of how the car's powered.


----------



## sptrawler (21 March 2022)

wayneL said:


> Discuss
> 
> View attachment 139310



Another thing that is silly about that picture is, with the efficiency of diesel particulate filters today, there is no reason for smoke to be coming out of the exhaust of a diesel these days.
My last two vehicles have been 4x4 over two tonne and neither blew any smoke, also the current one which Ive traded on the EV returns about 8.5kl/l which isnt bad for a 2.3T vehicle that can tow 3.5T and can do 1,000kl on 90l of fuel when not towing.
It is just another example of misinformation, that actually makes the thinking public hesitant as to the validity of the narrative IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (21 March 2022)

Hahaha, Wayne you are the perfect example of being able to lead a horse to water but not make him think.

I have already linked you to information giving you stats on petrol cars vs electric cars recharged by a grid supplied by diversified sources of energy.


----------



## wayneL (21 March 2022)

It's a meme, bros... Using the same imagery as the Greens.

"C'mon Man"


----------



## qldfrog (22 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm familiar enough with Australia's power stations to say that's not an accurate representation of any of them so it's definitely overseas. Since someone seems to have placed a castle to the right of the cooling towers it's most likely somewhere in Europe.
> 
> Second issue, for some reason there's black stuff coming out the cooling towers. That's truly alarming.....
> 
> ...



Here in Panama, the power station smoke is yellow, fueled on oil.i believe they could start making safety mates from the fumes.not good.
About the picture: any Qld tesla driver charging on the grid is a match or was 12 m ago when i last checked.
It is dynamic due to increasing part of green power.
But also worthwhile looking at losses in network, charging and discharge of battery vs ice..low.. efficiency.
Computations were done deep in that thread


----------



## rederob (22 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm familiar enough with Australia's power stations to say that's not an accurate representation of any of them so it's definitely overseas. Since someone seems to have placed a castle to the right of the cooling towers it's most likely somewhere in Europe.
> 
> Second issue, for some reason there's black stuff coming out the cooling towers. That's truly alarming.....
> 
> ...



He's going to be booked for not wearing a seatbelt!


----------



## JohnDe (22 March 2022)

After driving 1700+km through two states starting Friday morning and getting home Monday night, I just added up the cost and came up with $131.51 And I wasn't driving with economy in mind.

I used Tesla Superchargers for all but one charge, thought I'd try and Evie charger. Evie is cheaper than the Tesla chargers, though it took me a bit to find because the map address wasn't quite right but I figured it out in a few minutes. The Evie charger was at the back of the local Art Gallery in a major town centre, the phone app was giving me the main street at the location.

All charging was done while we stopped to eat or a get a coffee. We stopped and charged more than required because we like to have a walk and look around when traveling, so used those stops to top up. The Evie charger finished before we had completed our tour of the gallery.

At no point were we concerned about running out of energy.




Evie charge

Energy Fee0.40 AUD /kWhEnergy Distributed53.379 kWhEnergy Cost21.35 AUD


----------



## sptrawler (22 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> At no point were we concerned about running out of energy.



Even the standard range Tesla, covers a decent distance.


----------



## Value Collector (22 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> After driving 1700+km through two states starting Friday morning and getting home Monday night, I just added up the cost and came up with $131.51 And I wasn't driving with economy in mind.
> 
> I used Tesla Superchargers for all but one charge, thought I'd try and Evie charger. Evie is cheaper than the Tesla chargers, though it took me a bit to find because the map address wasn't quite right but I figured it out in a few minutes. The Evie charger was at the back of the local Art Gallery in a major town centre, the phone app was giving me the main street at the location.
> 
> ...



Even lower everyday running costs when you are charging from home.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> After driving 1700+km through two states starting Friday morning and getting home Monday night, I just added up the cost and came up with $131.51 And I wasn't driving with economy in mind.
> 
> I used Tesla Superchargers for all but one charge, thought I'd try and Evie charger. Evie is cheaper than the Tesla chargers, though it took me a bit to find because the map address wasn't quite right but I figured it out in a few minutes. The Evie charger was at the back of the local Art Gallery in a major town centre, the phone app was giving me the main street at the location.
> 
> ...




Pretty much everyone is convinced about the economics of EV's by now. They will sell like hot cakes as long as the supply is there, and so far it isn't.


----------



## Value Collector (22 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Pretty much everyone is convinced about the economics of EV's by now. They will sell like hot cakes as long as the supply is there, and so far it isn't.



I made the mistake of looking at the comments section of a Face Book post talking about the EV incentives, and man I can tell you there is a lot of BS still being spread by the uninformed haters of EV’s out there.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I made the mistake of looking at the comments section of a Face Book post talking about the EV incentives, and man I can tell you there is a lot of BS still being spread by the uninformed haters of EV’s out there.




Unfortunately there are idiots out there with their own prejudices. I wonder how much of it is stirred up by the dealers of ICE vehicles, similar to the gun lobby who don't want their toys taken away, some people still like the sound of throbbing V8's if you know what I mean.


----------



## rederob (22 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> After driving 1700+km through two states starting Friday morning and getting home Monday night, I just added up the cost and came up with $131.51 And I wasn't driving with economy in mind.
> 
> I used Tesla Superchargers for all but one charge, thought I'd try and Evie charger. Evie is cheaper than the Tesla chargers, though it took me a bit to find because the map address wasn't quite right but I figured it out in a few minutes. The Evie charger was at the back of the local Art Gallery in a major town centre, the phone app was giving me the main street at the location.
> 
> ...



Some people are thinking that most of the charging infrastructure needs to be subsidised, but at 40cents  to 50cents/Kwh there is a decent margin giving a payback especially as it is likely that Tesla and Evie have bulk supply deals from electricity retailers that are way less than our residential rates.
All the federal government needs to do is work with industry to ensure that most of country Australia has an adequate charging infrastructure in smaller population centres.  



If they had half a brain they  would have worked out that they could progressively sell off a lot of what they put in, just as Optus progressively expanded its coverage as more users made their services viable.


----------



## Value Collector (22 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Some people are thinking that most of the charging infrastructure needs to be subsidised, but at 40cents  to 50cents/Kwh there is a decent margin giving a payback especially as it is likely that Tesla and Evie have bulk supply deals from electricity retailers that are way less than our residential rates.
> All the federal government needs to do is work with industry to ensure that most of country Australia has an adequate charging infrastructure in smaller population centres.
> View attachment 139327
> 
> ...



Tesla charge about 44 cents I think, and they build stations with lots of bays and the chargers are fast.

Charge Fox only charge 20cents, But their chargers are slower, and often only have 1 bay and often you have to bring your own cable.

So on road trips I often drive past the cheaper locations if I know a Tesla location is on the route some where, But I have two charge Fox location at local shops near my house, in a pinch I might use them, have have only actually charged there 2 times in 3 years


----------



## mullokintyre (22 March 2022)

For those people who already drive an EV, what in your opinion is the best AP for locating Charging stations?
And not just Tesla ones thanks.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (22 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> For those people who already drive an EV, what in your opinion is the best AP for locating Charging stations?
> And not just Tesla ones thanks.
> Mick




Plug share was useful on my trip https://www.plugshare.com/map/australia


----------



## basilio (22 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> But the way the financial industry has behaved in the last few decades, large parts of it could be gotten rid of with a net benefit to the consumer.



Indeed.  In fact one of the clearest signs of a sick economy is a bloated financial services sector that "makes money" from various speculations. Whether it's pushing speculation on housing , shares, crypto, or just another hundred ways to make paper profits the industry has , IMV, become largely parasitic.

Obviously we need a financial sector in terms of savings, investment and keeping the wheels of commerce rolling. But, again IMV,  we don't need the BS that passes for financial servicing we currently get shafted with.


----------



## Value Collector (22 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> For those people who already drive an EV, what in your opinion is the best AP for locating Charging stations?
> And not just Tesla ones thanks.
> Mick



I use plug share to find the non Tesla chargers (it does also show Tesla ones two though), there is also another website called “a better route planner”, it’s apparently very good, but requires you to sign up (for free) to get the most out of it.

 But if you Drive a Tesla, you just put your destination into the navigation and it will automatically pick a route that goes past a tesla charger if it calculates that you are going to need to charge.


----------



## rederob (23 March 2022)

*This *article from *The Driven *pretty well summarises all the points raised in this thread that affect our ability to get hold on an EV.
The overriding factor is Scomo.
*"The main reason is simple. When the Australian federal Coalition government went out of its way to demonise and mock EVs in the last election campaign – “they won’t tow your boat” and “they’ll ruin your weekend”, Prime Minister Scott Morrison told us then – most global car makers decided to make other plans."*​​There's a bit more to it than that, but like nearly everything with Scomo, there is no coherent policy backing his brain farts.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 March 2022)

rederob said:


> All the federal government needs to do is work with industry to ensure that most of country Australia has an adequate charging infrastructure in smaller population centres.



Yep, most of it can stand on its own two feet economically but on the other hand, there's a definite benefit in filling in any gaps that do exist.

EV's are a thing where the network effect applies. To be a full replacement for ICE, charging infrastructure needs to exist at reasonable intervals anywhere you want to go just as service stations do now. If it doesn't well then that's not a problem for the people living there, they'll be charging at home or driving an ICE, but it's a problem for those who don't live there and who wish to travel through.  

Business can do most of it but government filling in any gaps seems reasonable to me.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> But if you Drive a Tesla, you just put your destination into the navigation and it will automatically pick a route that goes past a tesla charger if it calculates that you are going to need to charge.



I don't disagree as such, but if I'm a tourist on a road trip (and that's who the issue is particularly relevant for) then quite likely will be traveling by the route that takes me to the things I want to see or which has the nice scenery or whatever.

Case in point, even just limiting it to reasonably major roads there's 10 roads which cross the Victoria - SA border and many more if the minor ones are added. Someone taking the quickest route from Melbourne to Adelaide will likely just follow the Western Hwy / Dukes Hwy but someone who isn't heading straight to the capital city, or who's wanting to visit whoever or whatever on the way, may well choose to take a different route.

ICE's work simply because service stations are ubiquitous. Only in exceptional cases does one need to consciously seek one out, and ideally that's where EV chargers will get to. Something that's just there anywhere you reasonably expect to find one. It will happen.


----------



## rederob (23 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Yep, most of it can stand on its own two feet economically but on the other hand, there's a definite benefit in filling in any gaps that do exist.
> 
> EV's are a thing where the network effect applies. To be a full replacement for ICE, charging infrastructure needs to exist at reasonable intervals anywhere you want to go just as service stations do now. If it doesn't well then that's not a problem for the people living there, they'll be charging at home or driving an ICE, but it's a problem for those who don't live there and who wish to travel through.
> 
> Business can do most of it but government filling in any gaps seems reasonable to me.



Given there are already EVs with 1000km range, there should not really be too many gaps in future.
Our immediate problem is that we don't have access to any of these long range EVs here, and where they do exist, they are not cheap.
However, as battery densities increase and batteries continue to get cheaper, it's not too hard to imagine the average EV sedan of 2025 having minimum real world ranges over 500km.

I guess a part of the infrastructure problem has been, and will continue so for a few more years, an inability to get EV makers to land enough product in Australia to warrant speeding up supply.  So while we live in an infrastructure policy vacuum, we match that with a similar EV policy.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I made the mistake of looking at the comments section of a Face Book post talking about the EV incentives, and man I can tell you there is a lot of BS still being spread by the uninformed haters of EV’s out there.



For the record some of the public comments to newspapers and so on are quite routinely used for entertainment in the industry.

There's some people with a good idea of it all, there are others who don't know and don't pretend to know, but there's others who are, well, entertaining in a strange way with their conspiracy theories and so on.....


----------



## JohnDe (24 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't disagree as such, but if I'm a tourist on a road trip (and that's who the issue is particularly relevant for) then quite likely will be traveling by the route that takes me to the things I want to see or which has the nice scenery or whatever. Case in point, even just limiting it to reasonably major roads there's 10 roads which cross the Victoria - SA border and many more if the minor ones are added. Someone taking the quickest route from Melbourne to Adelaide will likely just follow the Western Hwy / Dukes Hwy but someone who isn't heading straight to the capital city, or who's wanting to visit whoever or whatever on the way, may well choose to take a different route.
> 
> ICE's work simply because service stations are ubiquitous. Only in exceptional cases does one need to consciously seek one out, and ideally that's where EV chargers will get to. Something that's just there anywhere you reasonably expect to find one. It will happen.




I just did that trip the other way around, with an EV.
First interstate trip not using an ICEV, put the destination in the Tesla nav & route plan with charging stops worked out for us. On the way back home we decided to check out some things, I added the new location in the nav and the Tesla worked out how much charge will be used and if any top up required. We did this a couple of times, once for dinner in a town off the highway and out of the way. No stress because the Tesla showed all our power requirements and I knew that we were safe.

Until you go out and experience it, fear of running out of juice will always be strong. I know, because I was the same.


----------



## JohnDe (24 March 2022)

The pub is for sale, and the old Holden dealership would make a great little museum


----------



## qldfrog (24 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Yep, most of it can stand on its own two feet economically but on the other hand, there's a definite benefit in filling in any gaps that do exist.
> 
> EV's are a thing where the network effect applies. To be a full replacement for ICE, charging infrastructure needs to exist at reasonable intervals anywhere you want to go just as service stations do now. If it doesn't well then that's not a problem for the people living there, they'll be charging at home or driving an ICE, but it's a problem for those who don't live there and who wish to travel through.
> 
> Business can do most of it but government filling in any gaps seems reasonable to me.



I imagine the market for lithium extension packs: a 1t trailer you hook behind your tesla with a 40k lithium battery 😊


----------



## qldfrog (24 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> For the record some of the public comments to newspapers and so on are quite routinely used for entertainment in the industry.
> 
> There's some people with a good idea of it all, there are others who don't know and don't pretend to know, but there's others who are, well, entertaining in a strange way with their conspiracy theories and so on.....



I hope i provide entertainment thinking that the EV aim is just to reduce travel ability and independent travel overall for the masses..obviously designs for europe and the US are slightly lacking for a 26m population living on a continent.
Green fuel CO2 neutral could fill all green narrative wo changing..or changing much,.  of our existing fleet


----------



## Value Collector (24 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I don't disagree as such, but if I'm a tourist on a road trip (and that's who the issue is particularly relevant for) then quite likely will be traveling by the route that takes me to the things I want to see or which has the nice scenery or whatever.
> 
> Case in point, even just limiting it to reasonably major roads there's 10 roads which cross the Victoria - SA border and many more if the minor ones are added. Someone taking the quickest route from Melbourne to Adelaide will likely just follow the Western Hwy / Dukes Hwy but someone who isn't heading straight to the capital city, or who's wanting to visit whoever or whatever on the way, may well choose to take a different route.
> 
> ICE's work simply because service stations are ubiquitous. Only in exceptional cases does one need to consciously seek one out, and ideally that's where EV chargers will get to. Something that's just there anywhere you reasonably expect to find one. It will happen.



Yeah, I still rent mostly ICE cars on international holidays, and sometimes a hybrid if it’s similar price, that’s mainly because Teslas are priced crazily high by the rental cars, and I don’t normally have that much driving to do.

I did regret not renting a Tesla in the UK though, because that was more of a road trip holiday for us, and we saw heaps of places we could have charged along the way.


----------



## mullokintyre (24 March 2022)

From Driven


> Blink and you may miss it. On Wednesday at around 1pm – the web page permitting – around 100 brand new Ioniq 5 electric SUVs will be offered for sale by Hyundai.
> They won’t be available for long, and good luck trying to get hold of one. More than 16,000 aspiring EV customers have registered for the first-come first served offering. It’s like trying to buy a ticket to a Rolling Stones concert. And if it’s anything like the first offering last year, the web site will probably crash anyway.
> Welcome to the cut-throat world of trying to buy an electric vehicle in Australia. The Ioniq 5 has won multiple awards across the world, and is highly sought, particularly with its vehicle to load facilities. But it’s not the only EV that is nearly impossible to buy.
> Tesla now says there is a 9-month wait for its best-selling Model 3, by far the most popular EV in Australia. The long awaited Model Y is still not even available for order in Australia.
> ...



Its hard to argue with any of the above, as for the past six weeks I have been fruitlessly trying to organise a testdrive of ANY ev.
So obviously the demand is there.
However, the next  section of the article is questionable to say the least.


> The main reason is simple. When the Australian federal Coalition government went ot of its way to demonise and mock EVs in the last election campaign – “they won’t tow your boat” and “they’ll ruin your weekend”, prime minister Scott Morrison told us then – most global car makers decided to make other plans.
> They put Australia at the end of the EV queue. They had other reasons to do so, too. Australia is one of the very few countries in the world that has no vehicle emissions standards. The country that leads the world in the uptake of rooftop solar is seemingly determined to be at the tail end of the transition to EVs. What a waste of rooftop solar!
> The Coalition intransigence on a coherent EV policy – it had tested the waters on emissions standards once, but was cowered by the “carbon tax on wheels” headlines in the Murdoch media – means that the car makers have no incentive to sell EVs in this country.



Simple? Did the writer check with all the EV companies as to why they will not ship to OZ?
Could it possible be because they have to convert to RHD, or have to ship by boat when shiping costs are thru the roof assuming you can get a ship to move them, or pass the crash test dummy legislation, plus its a very small maret.
The public will buy EV's regardless of the policy of the government, thecar makers could jack up their prices and get realy good returns if they wanted to.
Having an emissions policy (whether its coherent or not is another issue) will  not solve the lack of vehicles.
If we have  a change of government, as seems likely,  what will change that will encourage the foreign vehicle makers to ship here?
Subsidies? perhaps. 
Mick


----------



## moXJO (24 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> From Driven
> 
> Its hard to argue with any of the above, as for the past six weeks I have been fruitlessly trying to organise a testdrive of ANY ev.
> So obviously the demand is there.
> ...



The "government" reason were not why car manufacturers were not sending evs. I quoted an article pages back on the actual reasons and that wasn't it.


----------



## rederob (24 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> The "government" reason were not why car manufacturers were not sending evs. I quoted an article pages back on the actual reasons and that wasn't it.



Really?
*Here's *what one of the largest automakers in the world said:
*"Here there is no CO2 target, latent hostility to EVs [and] Victoria has taxed a new technology that is barely here ... [it has] not [been] thought through ... We don’t ask for incentives. [Nor do] we don’t ask for disincentives."*​​Then there's this from @mullokintyre:
"Could it possible be because they have to convert to RHD, or have to ship by boat when shipping costs are thru the roof assuming you can get a ship to move them, or pass the crash test dummy legislation, plus its a very small market."​Not a single point was on the money.  I previously mapped the many nations with RHD, so that's not a problem, nor are shipping costs as Europe is a long way from China!  Crash test costs are negligible as they use cars that fail QA, and/or have production runs that amortise these costs.

NEV automakers do not see Australia as a single market because NEV policies are a bugger's muddle across State/Territories.  And as we have no overarching national policies that support NEVs it's just so much easier to supply to European nations rather than try to concoct selling arrangements here that are consistent across our nation .


----------



## moXJO (24 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Really?
> *Here's *what one of the largest automakers in the world said:
> *"Here there is no CO2 target, latent hostility to EVs [and] Victoria has taxed a new technology that is barely here ... [it has] not [been] thought through ... We don’t ask for incentives. [Nor do] we don’t ask for disincentives."*​​Then there's this from @mullokintyre:
> "Could it possible be because they have to convert to RHD, or have to ship by boat when shipping costs are thru the roof assuming you can get a ship to move them, or pass the crash test dummy legislation, plus its a very small market."​Not a single point was on the money.  I previously mapped the many nations with RHD, so that's not a problem, nor are shipping costs as Europe is a long way from China!  Crash test costs are negligible as they use cars that fail QA, and/or have production runs that amortise these costs.
> ...



I think tractors were outselling evs in Australia last year, or the last. 
Our government is sht, no getting around that. I suppose the lack of spruiking by government is partly to blame. Realistically they should be able to sell off their own merit imo. I think ev demand has tripled this year without incentives. So demand will build.

Problem is manufacturers can't cover orders. Throw in blown up trade supply lines and they ain't churning out evs in enough quantities. Even if you do want one range of options is still limited. And then there's the wait.  Not to mention lack of knowledge from dealerships.


----------



## rederob (24 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> Realistically they should be able to sell off their own merit imo. I think ev demand has tripled this year without incentives. So demand will build
> Problem is manufacturers can't cover orders. Throw in blown up trade supply lines and they ain't churning out evs in enough quantities. Even if you do want one range of options is still limited. And then there's the wait.  Not to mention lack of knowledge from dealerships.



All the above is true.
The only point I rabbit on about is that because we have done nothing at the national level to foster a local EV market, manufacturers have prioritised other markets ahead of ours.  The result is a double whammy effect, multiplied many times.


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2022)

rederob said:


> All the above is true.
> The only point I rabbit on about is that because we have done nothing at the national level to foster a local EV market, manufacturers have prioritised other markets ahead of ours.  The result is a double whammy effect, multiplied many times.



You have been rabbiting on about the Federal Government on every issue, so why should this one miss out. 🤣

Morrison could be feeding the 5,000 a meal of fish at the sea of Galilee and you would be running round like a chook with its head chopped off, telling people not to eat because it is probably out of date.  🥳


----------



## moXJO (24 March 2022)

rederob said:


> All the above is true.
> The only point I rabbit on about is that because we have done nothing at the national level to foster a local EV market, manufacturers have prioritised other markets ahead of ours.  The result is a double whammy effect, multiplied many times.



I agree.
 We seem to be stuck in time with any sort of future proofing imo.


----------



## mullokintyre (24 March 2022)

Chinese manufacturer, BYD, has announced that it will produce an Electric Ute.
from Chasing cars


> The Australian distributor of Chinese car manufacturer BYD has confirmed an all-electric ute will be unveiled in 2023 before it heads to our shores.
> 
> Luke Todd, chief executive officer of BYD distributor EV Direct, told _Chasing Cars_ he had already seen the unnamed commercial vehicle in person during the durability testing phase of the 2023 BYD ute.
> 
> ...



I wonder if these utes from BYD will be sold through the AP eagers franchises as well?
Hope so, as I have shares in APE.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> I agree.
> We seem to be stuck in time with any sort of future proofing imo.



The right hand drive market is small on the World stage, where most highly populated first world countries are left hand drive e.g U.S.A, China and the EU, add to that the fact our market is infinitesimal in regard RHD demand due to the small population and range anxiety compared to e.g U.K, Japan and the remainder are mainly ex British colonies.

Given that the manufacturing of E.V's is limited, they will obviously be building production facilities to supply the major LHD markets, no matter what Australia does, until production capacity increases to meet demand we will be an afterthought.

People need to get a grip, why do we think Australia is so Important? 78 million cars were made in 2020, 17million are sold in the U.S, 21million in China,  EU 10million, that is just 3 LHD countries with plenty of wealthy people to buy expensive E.V's.

Australia where 1million cars are sold, telling the manufacturers hey over here we will give an incentive, is really going to get their attention. 🤣

We have really lost the plot, it's the media again giving us Australian plebs the idea we are important on the World stage, rather than in our rather small closed minds IMO

But it would be nice, if the taxpayer would give me a bit of money off my car, it is dearer than Rob's. 🤣


----------



## Macquack (24 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Chinese manufacturer, BYD, has announced that it will produce an* Electric Ute*.
> from Chasing cars
> 
> I wonder if these utes from BYD will be sold through the AP eagers franchises as well?
> ...



Michaelia won't be happy.



When that bimbo Cash retires from politics, she is a shoe in to play a character in "Kath & Kim". No acting experience necessary, she can just play herself.


----------



## Humid (24 March 2022)

Macquack said:


> Michaelia won't be happy.
> 
> 
> 
> When that bimbo Cash retires from politics, she is a shoe in to play a character in "Kath & Kim". No acting experience necessary, she can just play herself.


----------



## rederob (24 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> You have been rabbiting on about the Federal Government on every issue, so why should this one miss out. 🤣



Given I am mostly quoting what *industry *says about Scomo's mob and their lack of supportive policies, it's just a matter of being honest about the problem.
*Here's* a few recent thoughts from the car industry, including:

*"Behyad Jafari, CEO of the Electric Vehicle Council, said the Government’s plan wasn’t fit for the 21st century and will mean Australians continue to miss out on the best technology on offer."*
And *here* are more, including:

“*We need to acknowledge the OECD has gone down a particular policy road and as a small global player, we’re affected by that,” says Michael Bradley, managing director of the Australian Automobile Association.

“We can’t insulate ourselves from what’s going on in the rest of the world, no matter how hard we try.”

The solution, according to Bradley and Tony Weber, head of the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, is for Australia to develop its own CO2 emissions regime.*



sptrawler said:


> The right hand drive market is small on the World stage, where most highly populated first world countries are left hand drive e.g U.S.A, China and the EU, add to that the fact our market is infinitesimal in regard RHD demand due to the small population and range anxiety compared to e.g U.K, Japan and the remainder are mainly ex British colonies.



The idea that RHDs is an issue is not supported by the fact that about a third of the world's population has this driver configuration  Setting up dedicated RHD production lines in a plant is no big deal given the global market will need to accommodate over 300 million drivers.


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Given I am mostly quoting what *industry *says about Scomo's mob and their lack of supportive policies, it's just a matter of being honest about the problem.
> *Here's* a few recent thoughts from the car industry, including:
> 
> *"Behyad Jafari, CEO of the Electric Vehicle Council, said the Government’s plan wasn’t fit for the 21st century and will mean Australians continue to miss out on the best technology on offer."*
> ...




Of course the car industry is asking for more assistance, if I was a vehicle manufacturer I would be looking for money to help with the transition of my business and look for anyone I could blame for the fact I can't make enough cars to meet demand.
That is logical, not political.




rederob said:


> The idea that RHDs is an issue is not supported by the fact that about a third of the world's population has this driver configuration  Setting up dedicated RHD production lines in a plant is no big deal given the global market will need to accommodate over 300 million drivers.



The third of the World that drives on the right hand side. is mainly made up of third world impoverished people i.e India, South Africa, which I actually alluded to in my post regarding the propensity of LHD vehicles are made for large first world wealthy consumers.
So really my case still stands the majority of manufacturing being built will be for Chinese, U.S and the EU LHD markets, despite disagreement.


----------



## Macquack (24 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The third of the World that *drives on the right hand side.* is mainly made up of third world impoverished people i.e India, South Africa, which I actually alluded to in my post regarding the propensity of LHD vehicles are made for large first world wealthy consumers.



The third of the world steer the car "on the right hand side" (RHD), but "drive on the left hand side" of the road.

What side of the road do Western Australians drive on?


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2022)

Macquack said:


> The third of the world steer the car "on the right hand side" (RHD), but "drive on the left hand side" of the road.
> 
> What side of the road do Western Australians drive on?



My appologies for your confusion.


----------



## Macquack (24 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> My appologies for your confusion.



Its you confusion that I am worried about, as I don't want to have any accidents when I go there on holidays.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 March 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I hope i provide entertainment



The comment wasn't referring to this forum or anyone on it.

Some of what gets posted in the comments section on the mainstream media websites is truly bizarre though even when taken from a technology, environmental, corporate and politically neutral perspective.

My view is that politics and the media have seriously failed to give the general public accurate information about all thus, thus fuelling tribalism.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I did regret not renting a Tesla in the UK though, because that was more of a road trip holiday for us, and we saw heaps of places we could have charged along the way.



Same here - driving an ICE around much of the UK I spotted EV chargers on quite a few occasions, indeed more on that trip than I've come across in total in Australia thus far.

Also remember seeing EV's parked on the street in Paris left on charge overnight. This was in 2017.




I don't know the street name, it was in the inner part of the city though, and there were a dozen or so of them on charge like this.


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## sptrawler (24 March 2022)

Macquack said:


> Its you confusion that I am worried about, as I don't want to have any accidents when I go there on holidays.



I would have thought that as the discussion was about the manufacturing of RHD vehicles and LHD vehicles, the typo would have been obvious, therefore again my appologies, it is easy to make those type of errors on a small mobile phone screen I find, especially when I am hurrying.
Again I hope you can accept my appologies.


----------



## moXJO (24 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The right hand drive market is small on the World stage, where most highly populated first world countries are left hand drive e.g U.S.A, China and the EU, add to that the fact our market is infinitesimal in regard RHD demand due to the small population and range anxiety compared to e.g U.K, Japan and the remainder are mainly ex British colonies.
> 
> Given that the manufacturing of E.V's is limited, they will obviously be building production facilities to supply the major LHD markets, no matter what Australia does, until production capacity increases to meet demand we will be an afterthought.
> 
> ...



I'm sure there was a reason for it. Parts to get rid of, or dumping ice vehicle stock on us. I can't remember what it was now.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> I suppose the lack of spruiking by government is partly to blame.



I see both sides of this one.

Consumers will buy what they want to buy. It's their money and their decision so long as it's legal.

But then rather a lot of vehicles are bought by fleets and I'm told that at least one company ditched it's EV fleet plans simply because they didn't want to risk getting themselves on the wrong side of the federal government with whom they have unavoidable dealings. If the feds say EV's are out and (for random example) don't drink coffee well then rest assured, ICE cars and tea it is. From a business perspective that's rational but, since cars are turned over in the fleet fairly frequently, it means what's sold second hand to the public who'll get another decade or more use out of them is diesel not electric.

Governments have a role to lead by example in any situation.


----------



## moXJO (24 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I see both sides of this one.
> 
> Consumers will buy what they want to buy. It's their money and their decision so long as it's legal.
> 
> ...



Plus side of being slow buggers: we get to watch other countries iron out the kinks of the transition. Servicing, training, after market parts, problems, locating charge points, not a lot of point being out in front. We can get a comprehensive look at the different strategies occurring and pick and choose.


----------



## rederob (24 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Of course the car industry is asking for more assistance, if I was a vehicle manufacturer I would be looking for money to help with the transition of my business and look for anyone I could blame for the fact I can't make enough cars to meet demand.
> That is logical, not political.



The car industries are asking for *policies *that are relevant to advancing the inevitable transition.  That's completely political.
Where did any of them seek subsidies?


sptrawler said:


> The third of the World that drives on the right hand side. is mainly made up of third world impoverished people i.e India, South Africa, which I actually alluded to in my post regarding the propensity of LHD vehicles are made for large first world wealthy consumers.
> So really my case still stands the majority of manufacturing being built will be for Chinese, U.S and the EU LHD markets, despite disagreement.



Your point was about a small market for RHDs...


sptrawler said:


> The right hand drive market is small on the World stage,



 How are hundreds of millions of units a small market?  
Attached to my point was the fact that this small market that *you *talk about includes a few hundred million people who are relatively well off *and *will be accommodated by production lines for RHDs in the usual way that automakers satisfy this demand.  However, as repeated many times now, Australia has not been given priority by automakers so the majority of RHDs will be headed elsewhere until there's a major change in our policies or external demand is met.


----------



## sptrawler (24 March 2022)

@rederob Im using the phone so I will keep the answer short.
How are a hundred million units a small market?
Well it is a small market if the 100million have stuff all money.
Have you been to India? I have, the last thing they are doing is lining up to buy a $A 45,000  E.V
They would need a $A 40,000 incentive, so as I said earlier, the manufacturers wont be ramping up RHD production, while they are struggling to meet the demand for the lucrative LHD market, it is just perfect business sense nothing to do with politics.
However if the manufacturers can get the media and muppets on board, to get taxpayers to give them a leg up, well that's good business also.


----------



## rederob (25 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @rederob Im using the phone so I will keep the answer short.
> How are a hundred million units a small market?'



The RHD *population base* is over 2B, and the actual number of *RHD ICEVs* that will need to be replaced is over 300M.  In the UK alone the RHD base is over 30M units, which is around twice the total number of NEVs so far manufactured globally and 30% greater than the total number of *all cars* produced annually in China.  


sptrawler said:


> Have you been to India? I have, the last thing they are doing is lining up to buy a $A 45,000  E.V
> They would need a $A 40,000 incentive, so as I said earlier, the manufacturers wont be ramping up RHD production, while they are struggling to meet the demand for the lucrative LHD market, it is just perfect business sense nothing to do with politics.



Both China and India are producing NEVs from US$5k upwards, so we are not talking about a unilateral marketplace of the wealthy.  The practice of car manufacturers will be similar to how it has always been, just as RHD Japan will make most of its export cars for LHD markets.


sptrawler said:


> However if the manufacturers can get the media and muppets on board, to get taxpayers to give them a leg up, well that's good business also.



This has been done to death.  Neither you nor I pre-purchased our BEVs with a subsidy, and I got lucky after paying my deposit when *QLD *decided to offer $3k rebates that were for less expensive NEV purchases.
I don't know how many times I need to spell out the Coalition's *failure of policy* that the car industry also repeats ad nauseum, but falls on deaf ears.  Yes subsidies would be nice but, as I have also pointed out, the mish mash of State/Territory incentives makes consistent-message national advertising impossible, and otherwise generally confusing about who gets how much, for what, from when, if it costs less than $x, $y, or $z.  This is purely politics at play.
As for the media, they can't keep up!  And are much less knowledgeable than many posting here, which includes you and me.

You are so lucky to have me regularly schooling you!


----------



## mullokintyre (25 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @rederob Im using the phone so I will keep the answer short.
> How are a hundred million units a small market?
> Well it is a small market if the 100million have stuff all money.
> Have you been to India? I have, the last thing they are doing is lining up to buy a $A 45,000  E.V
> ...



An even bigger hurdle for exporters of vehicles to India is the high tarriffs.
Mahindra is a big producer  of Indian vehicles, as is Tata, Ashok and Bjaj to name a few.
Almost all the foreign vehicle manufacturers have plants in India, even BMW and Porsche!.
With over 100% effective duty, there is virtually zero incentive to import any cars, whether they are be EV's or any other kind.

From Immihelp


----------



## moXJO (25 March 2022)

List of evs available in Australia. I think there might be some missing:


MG ZS EV: *$44,990*
Hyundai Ioniq Electric: *$49,970*
Nissan Leaf:* $49,990*
Hyundai Kona Electric Elite: *$54,500*
MINI Electric: *$55,650*
Hyundai Kona Electric Highlander: *$58,000*
Polestar 2: *$59,900*
Nissan Leaf e+:* $60,490*Kia Niro S: *$62,590*
MINI Electric Yours: *$62,825*
Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus:* $63,900*
Kia EV6: *$67,990*
Mazda MX-30: *$65,490*
Kia Niro Sport: *$70,990*
Tesla Model 3 Long Range: *$76,200*
Volvo XC40 Recharge: *$76,990*
Tesla Model 3 Performance: *$88,900*
BMW i4: *$99,900*
BMW iX3: *$114,900*
Mercedes-Benz EQC: *$124,300*
BMW i4 M50:* $124,900*
Tesla Model S: *$147,990*
Jaguar I-Pace: *$149,990*
Audi E-Tron Sportback: *$150,900*
Tesla Model X: *$165,990*
Audi E-Tron S: *$168,400*
Porsche Taycan: *$174,695*
Tesla Model X Plaid: *$174,990*
Porsche Taycan 4 Cross Turismo: *$176,600*
BMW iX: *$179,333*
Audi E-Tron GT: *$181,700*
Tesla Model S Plaid: *$186,990*
Porsche Taycan 4S: *$194,700*
Porsche Taycan 4S Cross Turismo:* $205,300*
Porsche Taycan Turbo: *$276,300*
Porsche Taycan Turbo Cross Turismo: *$279,000*
Porsche Taycan Turbo S: *$345,800*


----------



## Knobby22 (25 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> List of evs available in Australia. I think there might be some missing:
> 
> 
> MG ZS EV: *$44,990*
> ...



Definitely some missing.

In reality though, huge waiting lists and no supply. Other countries are getting them in preference to us plus we are seen as a good dumping ground for old diesel and petrol cars.
E.g. Kia recently bought 500 cars in and 25,000 tried to buy them.
Read article following.








						Australia can't get enough of the Kia EV6. But neither can Kia...
					

How Kia's hottest ticket could be hamstrung by supply issues




					www.whichcar.com.au


----------



## rederob (25 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> List of evs available in Australia. I think there might be some missing:
> 
> 
> MG ZS EV: *$44,990*
> ...



Also the car I just pre-ordered:

*BYD Atto - standard range:  $44,382*
*BYD Atto - extended range: $47,382*
Note however that *BYD's *model range will have price increases applied soon, from about AU$635 to AU$1270.


----------



## JohnDe (25 March 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Definitely some missing.
> 
> In reality though, huge waiting lists and no supply. Other countries are getting them in preference to us plus we are seen as a good dumping ground for old dieseel and petrol cars.
> E.g. Kia recently bought 500 cars in and 10,000 tried to buy them.
> ...




There is waiting lists on all new cars.

Try and purchase a Toyota - 9 to 12 months wait, depending on the model you want.

Talking to a guy yesterday, a dealership offered him $109,000 for his Land Cruiser, the exact price he paid for it. A new Cruiser is $139,000 with a 12 month wait. He made the deal.

All cars have a waiting list, there is world shortages and transport issues.


----------



## rederob (25 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> There is waiting lists on all new cars.
> 
> Try and purchase a Toyota - 9 to 12 months wait, depending on the model you want.
> 
> ...



Just privately sold our 2020 Honda Odyssey via Carsales.  Was purchased sight unseen from a small-restaurant owner in Adelaide, but after a $270 Redbook inspection and report the buyer paid for.  It's just about to be loaded on its car carrier to be taken from Brisbane to Adelaide, also at the buyers cost.  The guy from Redbook said he's never been so busy doing inspection/reports from interstate buyers because they can't get the stock they want locally.


----------



## divs4ever (25 March 2022)

Inside China's electric drive for swappable car batteries









						Inside China's electric drive for swappable car batteries By Reuters
					

Inside China's electric drive for swappable car batteries




					www.investing.com
				




   now RV becomes more interesting ( to me )

 my original concern  was a  battery failure  , basically made your vehicle obsolete ( or up for an expensive repack )

 nice one China  , i suppose having standard connections ( across makes and models ) is too much to wish for


----------



## mullokintyre (26 March 2022)

divs4ever said:


> Inside China's electric drive for swappable car batteries
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I were a Chinese manufacturer, I would make the Chinese standard the world standard by having all Chinese vehicles to the same standard, and then produce so many vehicles that the rest of the world has to follow suit.
Just like the Americans did with  many of their  manufactured products.
Americans standards abound through aviation, electronics, radio frequency bandwidth uses, comms, GPS etc etc.
It is  less so in cars these days, but US standards were once the norm.
The US is even going to metric fasteners in cars these days.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> If I were a Chinese manufacturer, I would make the Chinese standard the world standard by having all Chinese vehicles to the same standard, and then produce so many vehicles that the rest of the world has to follow suit.
> Just like the Americans did with  many of their  manufactured products.
> Americans standards abound through aviation, electronics, radio frequency bandwidth uses, comms, GPS etc etc.
> It is  less so in cars these days, but US standards were once the norm.
> ...




How many batteries required to be waiting in storage?

What is the cost off a 'swap station'?

How many 'swap station' required and between what distances?

How does an owner know that their battery swap will be like for like (my battery could be 6 months old but the swap is 2 years)?

Will the manufacturer foot the bill of a 'swap station'?


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

For those who like a bit of badge snobbery, Merc have released a  relatively affordable E.V, if you call $80k affordable. 
But I guess when the cheapest are around $50k, it has to be kept in perspective.









						2021 Mercedes-Benz EQA250 review: GLA to EQA
					

Making the transition to an electric car doesn't need to be a challenge. Mercedes-Benz appeals to GLA drivers with the all-electric EQA.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## divs4ever (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> How many batteries required to be waiting in storage?
> 
> What is the cost off a 'swap station'?
> 
> ...



 well i suspect a well-run organization will first run some checks on the  battery ( batteries ) received to be swapped ( and recharged later ) so would think there will be more batteries waiting in the racks  than expected customers  say 10% to 20%  more  relying on newly received batteries will mostly be fit for recharging ( and recharged )

 now IF the charge/swap station is only relying on solar ( and wind ) input  that percentage buffer might have to be higher 

 a further potential  development   could be a non-rechargable battery ( effectively a capacitor ) which would just be recycled ( but that might not be so popular 

 however an easily replacable battery   to my mind is a good thing ( although vehicle salesmen  may disagree )

 i would also guess  recharging at home ( or work ) would still be an option ( so battery swaps in many cases would be rarer than say visiting the petrol station )

 ALSO remember there is still a push towards increased use of public transport  , so EV use MIGHT be lower in some households 

 if the batteries remain generic ( not proprietary ) fittings  , i would think China would have it government owned/run  and just charge a fee for the service   ( include it it the power infrastructure assets and reap a steady income  ) , and maybe some other nations would follow that model .

now IF it was a government-run operation  i would think there will be plenty of swap-stations .. eventually 

 if privately run/owned  the stations would go up quicker , but liable to be less evenly distributed


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

divs4ever said:


> well i suspect a well-run organization will first run some checks on the  battery ( batteries ) received to be swapped ( and recharged later ) so would think there will be more batteries waiting in the racks  than expected customers  say 10% to 20%  more  relying on newly received batteries will mostly be fit for recharging ( and recharged )
> 
> now IF the charge/swap station is only relying on solar ( and wind ) input  that percentage buffer might have to be higher
> 
> ...




So how many extra batteries will be required to stock ‘swap stations’, and how will the current shortage of raw materials for battery production affect pricing and stock?

Current industry standard is that battery degradation of up to 30% is acceptable. Would you be happy to have your near new 95% capacity battery swapped for another with 80%?

Are customers happy to lease their battery? This is the talk from Chinese industry: Drivers purchase a car but lease the battery, bringing cost of vehicle purchase down significantly and complaints of battery swaps down.

Are you willing to enter into a battery leasing agreement over the lifetime ownership of your vehicle?


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> So how many extra batteries will be required to stock ‘swap stations’, and how will the current shortage of raw materials for battery production affect pricing and stock?
> 
> Current industry standard is that battery degradation of up to 30% is acceptable. Would you be happy to have your near new 95% capacity battery swapped for another with 80%?
> 
> ...



It is an interesting concept and it isn't without precedent, people lease and swap out their their gas bottles. This ensures they are pressure tested when required, even the 9kg caravan bottles are now a swap out system, where 20 years ago people owned the bottle and when it expired it wasn't allowed to be refilled.
So in a lot of ways a battery swap system is quite a good idea, it ensures that the battery remains the property of a responsible entity, who ensure that it is always fit for purpose and is either recycled or disposed of correctly.
Once an E.V battery has died, there is every possibility the car may  have its number plates removed and be abandoned, as happens now, when repair costs are more than the residual value of the car.
It is like many new appliances that come to market, it takes several years and compromises by the manufacturers, before efficiencies and cross product sharing occurs.
But having a standard range of common batteries, that cater to the various consumers requirements i.e  multiple KWh sizes, makes a lot of sense IMO.
A bit like having common socket and voltage/amperage batteries for hand held power tools, rather than as now where the batteries are specific to a certain manufacturer, this is extremely inefficient.
Someone who only wants to use a drill once a year, has to buy a drill and a battery and a charger, so they buy the cheapest drill anyway.
A tradesman who uses the drill 7 days a week putting up patios, wont buy the same drill, but there is no reason that the batteries/chargers shouldn't be interchangeable.
The wastage must be unbelievable, if the batteries were interchangeable, you could rent them off somewhere like Bunnings etc maybe $1 a day for example, that would mean the batteries aren't going dead in the handyman's shed and the tradesman can either buy or rent depending on his job.
He may not have a lot of work on, so he has the one he buys for convenience and when work picks up he rents or buys extras.

As the battery materials are a finite resource, it makes sense to use them in the most efficient way, with car batteries they could be produced so that the same socket/holder is used at the house. 
Then when they are toward the end of their useful life for the E.V, the remainder of its usable life can be just used by slotting it into a house as an exchange for one that needs recycling.


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It is an interesting concept and it isn't without precedent, people lease and swap out their their gas bottles. This ensures they are pressure tested when required, even the 9kg caravan bottles are now a swap out system, where 20 years ago people owned the bottle and when it expired it wasn't allowed to be refilled.
> So in a lot of ways a battery swap system is quite a good idea, it ensures that the battery remains the property of a responsible entity, who ensure that it is always fit for purpose.
> Once an E.V battery has died, there is every possibility the car may  have its number plates removed and be abandoned, as happens now when repair costs more than the residual value of the car.
> It is like many new appliances that come to market, it takes several years and compromises by the manufacturers, before efficiencies and cross product sharing occurs.
> ...




A gas bottle is just a vessel, a battery is very different. A lick of paint and the bottle is as good as new, whereas a battery’s condition is dependent on previous use and charging.

The idea of swapping came out several years ago, with China starting to build  stations just before Covid struck. The idea is that EV owners charge when possible and time allows, and use swaps for all other occasions.

The removed battery is tested & recharged automatically in the swapping stations. Any failed battery packs are stacked in a separate location & collected and substituted with replacement items as required. 

The biggest problem that no one has answered is, how many extra batteries will be required to have enough stock for all EVs using the scheme, and how much will this add to the cost & supply issues that are currently affecting battery manufacturers, especially due to material shortage which will take years to catch up.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> A gas bottle is just a vessel, a battery is very different. A lick of paint and the bottle is as good as new, whereas a battery’s condition is dependent on previous use and charging.



I understand what you are saying, but it isn't just a case of a lick of paint, the bottle has to be taken to a facility to be tested to ensure there is not structural issues, if there are it has to be disposed of at another specific facility to ensure that it is done in a safe and correct manner.



JohnDe said:


> The idea of swapping came out several years ago, with China starting to build  stations just before Covid struck. The idea is that EV owners charge when possible and time allows, and use swaps for all other occasions.
> 
> The removed battery is tested & recharged automatically in the swapping stations. Any failed battery packs are stacked in a separate location & collected and substituted with replacement items as required.
> 
> The biggest problem that no one has answered is, how many extra batteries will be required to have enough stock for all EVs using the scheme, and how much will this add to the cost & supply issues that are currently affecting battery manufacturers, especially due to material shortage which will take years to catch up.



The question of how many batteries are required, is somewhat like how many charging stations are required, it will depend on the amount of vehicles the area is servicing. 
The issue is how many times will you need to swap your battery, in the case of VC very very seldom, he will charge mainly at home, the same could be for you, so there is two you don't need to carry.
But there may be other people who have an E.V company car and is a travelling salesman that goes all over the city, or a taxi driver in a different make of E.V that runs 24/7, they may swap out every day.
So it would depend on the demographics of the population, but having the same swap out battery and mechanism in your Tesla as a Hyundai or a Polestar or whatever makes sense.
When you and VC in 7 years time find your range isn't what it used to be, you head down the swap shop, drive in and get a new battery in 5 minutes then off you go for the next 7 years hopefully.
I don't think you are looking at it from a holistic point of view, i think you may be thinking you swap the battery every charge, where this for most wouldn't be the case.


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I understand what you are saying, but it isn't just a case of a lick of paint, the bottle has to be taken to a facility to be tested to ensure there is not structural issues, if there are it has to be disposed of at another specific facility to ensure that it is done in a safe and correct manner.
> 
> 
> The question of how many batteries are required, is somewhat like how many charging stations are required, it will depend on the amount of vehicles the area is servicing.
> ...



Your traveling the wrong track.

A gas bottle is an inert container, it’s either good or it’s not, they are very cheap to replace.

A battery has many cells & electronic components, they can be damaged by physical abuse & discharge abuse, they are expensive to replace.

A swap station is nothing like a charging station.

A charging station only requires basic infrastructure and electricity, which there are many ways of generating.

A ‘swap station’ requires complex infrastructure which includes robotics and testing equipment. Battery material is limited because the short sightedness of the big vehicle manufacturers, it will take years to ramp up mining and battery production. To make ’swap stations’ viable they would have to have enough batteries stock to replace hundreds each day at each location, this will cause a demand supply issue which will push up the price of materials and batteries.

In 7 years time my battery will be replaced under warranty, if there is an issue. After that I may have traded in, or replaced the battery at my cost from the savings of not having to have my car serviced, plus battery cost keep dropping every 6 months.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> A ‘swap station’ requires complex infrastructure which includes robotics and testing equipment. Battery material is limited because the short sightedness of the big vehicle manufacturers, it will take years to ramp up mining and battery production. To make ’swap stations’ viable they would have to have enough batteries stock to replace hundreds each day at each location, this will cause a demand supply issue which will push up the price of materials and batteries.
> 
> In 7 years time my battery will be replaced under warranty, if there is an issue. After that I may have traded in, or replaced the battery at my cost from the savings of not having to have my car serviced, plus battery cost keep dropping every 6 months.



What you have said there is exactly the reason, a standard battery format and housing makes perfect sense.

By the way I do have a bit of a clue, regards batteries, I know they have many cells and electronic components, one I do have tertiary electronic qualifications, two I am a dual traded instrument/ electrical with an A grade electrical license and three I am building a home battery.

By the way here is a picture of an Aldi battery that has a dead cell, that I'm about to replace with one of the 18650's I've got from stripping dead battery packs.  A mate was going to bin it.  

The swap station doesn't need testing equipment, the data logger can be incorporated into the battery pack, to say the battery degradation. 
All the swap out station would require would be a robotic battery remover, replacer and a storage/charging  facility to hold, store and charge the different sized batteries. 
If there were three sizes eg, small say 30Kwh, medium 50KWh and Large 80KWh for example that wouldn't be too hard.
When you consider todays robotic pic and pack systems.


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What you have said there is exactly the reason, a standard battery format and housing makes perfect sense.
> By the way I do have a bit of a clue, regards batteries, I know they have many cells and electronic components, one I do have tertiary electronic qualifications, two I am a dual traded instrument/ electrical with an A grade electrical license and three I am building a home battery.
> By the way here is a picture of an Aldi battery that has a dead cell, that I'm about to replace with one of the 18650's I've got from stripping dead battery packs.
> 
> View attachment 139527




If we're going to start down the track of knowledge and experience, I have been involved in the automotive industry, starting with Saturday's and school holidays at my fathers business from the age of 14. I have been certified and studying in the industry for over 30 years. Part of the reason I purchased a Tesla is to prepare for the EV evolution/revolution.

I know all about gas bottle inspections, LPG vehicles required it every 10 years. I also know about swapping stations because I researched the idea when it first came out in 2019/20.

Yes I know that swapping batteries is meant to be in conjunction with charging, and this is why I mention the quality of the battery that is fitted on a swap. Take the example of a Taxi, which will run that battery down to the dregs before charging each time and eventually swapping, this causes degradation of the battery. New battery technology and software is improving the issues but not eliminating the problem. Now take that Taxi battery, and then you come along with your 7 year old EV which you have charged and discharged as recommended by the manufacturers since new and then swap it with that Taxi battery.

As for charging  and 'swap stations', one will cost an extremely lot more than the other, this cost has to be made up quickly so that the owner can start showing a profit.

I can see 'swap stations' being a little like VHS and Beta, both work and can make their owners a profit, but one becomes obsolete because consumers prefer the other. Battery charging is only going to get faster, battery capacity is only going to get faster, power consumption is only going to get less.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I can see 'swap stations' being a little like VHS and Beta, both work and can make their owners a profit, but one becomes obsolete because consumers prefer the other. Battery charging is only going to get faster, battery capacity is only going to get faster, power consumption is only going to get less.



A better analogy would be to compare an electric drill that you have to plug in to charge, as opposed to an electric drill you can plug in and charge, or swap out the battery whichever is convenient at the time.
But whatever suits the narrative. 

As for picking up a taxi battery, well you or VC or I wouldn't because we charge mainly at home so we wouldn't bother swapping out until it was shagged.
The batteries in the swap station would be constantly monitored and refurbished, repurposed or sent for recycling, aren't we meant to be thinking about the environment and efficient use of resources, obviously too much of a head spin for some.


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A better analogy would be to compare an electric drill that you have to plug in to charge, as opposed to an electric drill you can plug in and charge, or swap out the battery whichever is convenient at the time.
> But whatever suits the narrative.




I've never seen a battery swap station for an electric drill. Why is that?


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I've never seen a battery swap station for an electric drill. Why is that?



Because, if you go back to my original post #5,636, they haven't standardised the batteries obviously.  

By the way I do like the fact you followed in your fathers footsteps, my family has done the same, my father was one of the early Instrumentation tradesmen, my brother, myself and my two sons have followed a similar path.
We all did an apprenticeship and qualified as electricians, my brother became a computer system engineer for Honeywell, I went down a different path into power generation.
But I think it is great, that kids get enough enthusiasm and positive vibes, to follow in their parents footpaths. It indicates their parents were obviously happy with their chosen profession.


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Because, if you go back to my original post #5,636, they haven't standardised the batteries obviously.




Electric tool companies have standardised their own batteries for their own tools, they could easily open battery swap stations, but they haven't. If there is a profit to be made and advantage for all it would have happened.

And what are all the reasons that manufacturers don't have a standardised battery?

Some of the reasons is because of cost and size. Not everyone requires a large heavy duty commercial battery pack, some tools are designed to fit in tight spots. During the life of a product an improved design may be found, and so on.

Having a design that all manufacturers must stick to will affect the manufacturers. How does a battery swap work for my little EV MG and my mate Ford EV ute, or my wife's large Mercedes EV?


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Electric tool companies have standardised their own batteries for their own tools, they could easily open battery swap stations, but they haven't. If there is a profit to be made and advantage for all it would have happened.
> 
> And what are all the reasons that manufacturers don't have a standardised battery?
> 
> ...



Your first statement is the reason, they haven't standardised, there isn't any profit in it, simple.
But you can't then say it is about efficiency, because it isn't, it is about profit.
You can't say it is about the best use of finite resources, it isn't, it is about profit.

How does a battery swap work for my little MG and my mate's Ford ute?
Obviously only I am listening to what the other person is saying, if you read my post #5640 you would have read quote:
_If there were three sizes eg, small say 30Kwh, medium 50KWh and Large 80KWh for example that wouldn't be too hard._

I'm certainly getting the feeling, you're a more talk at you guy, than a discuss with you, sort of person.

Anyway to move on, which will probably end up being the end of the discussion.
If I was Elon Musk and he is a lot smarter than me, I would suggest I step back with my car making and on sell it to a manufacturer, because I want to focus on sustainability and I will suggest a battery standard is adopted and my gigafactories will supply them.
WOW then all the manufacturers don't have to worry about sourcing raw materials, making batteries which are the major cost, just have to make the roller skate, which they have been making for a century.
That would be a stroke of genius IMO, supplying every battery, for every E.V magic.
Well like I say, that has done that debate to bits.


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Your first statement is the reason, they haven't standardised, there isn't any profit in it, simple.
> But you can't then say it is about efficiency, because it isn't, it is about profit.
> You can't say it is about the best use of finite resources, it isn't, it is about profit.
> 
> ...




Aah but there is a reason that you and I are not a Elon Musk, and he is the person that has changed the vehicle manufacturing world. 

Again we get back to cost an infrastructure, the Chines company NIO started battery swap stations in 2019/20 for their vehicles. The current cost is US $500,000 for one size battery. I wonder what the cost would be for a 3 battery station would be?

Sustainability? The Tesla battery is one of the most produced EV battery in the world, the design and software is one of the most efficient in the world. Does that mean it should be the standard?

If it comes down to standardisation, should it not be up to the company that has changed the EV battery world?

I think not.

I believe that battery 'swap stations' are an inefficient use of resources, and adds cost to an industry that is trying to bring cost down so that the masses can buy into it. The aded cost comes from a the cost a huge infrastructure foot print an there added cost of having to hold and maintain stock.

Elon Musk has always been about bringing the cost of EV's down and their acceptability into mainstream.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Aah but there is a reason that you and I are not a Elon Musk, and he is the person that has changed the vehicle manufacturing world.
> 
> Again we get back to cost an infrastructure, the Chines company NIO started battery swap stations in 2019/20 for their vehicles. The current cost is US $500,000 for one size battery. I wonder what the cost would be for a 3 battery station would be?
> 
> ...



Time will tell, but it is the obvious way to bring down costs IMO, as batteries are the major cost.
A bit like tyres, not many car manufacturers make tyres, but they all use them.
The thing that will differentiate E.V's IMO, will be the motor controls, the comfort and the efficient use of the battery.
So like I said we have probably done it to death, we see things from different perspectives, but neither of us knows, we just have opinions.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What you have said there is exactly the reason, a standard battery format and housing makes perfect sense.



I'm in the middle here.

There's a benefit in battery standardisation regardless of whether they're swappable or not.

At present 12V car batteries come in a few standard sizes and then there's household AA, C, D etc batteries that are again standardised. That facilitates cheap and easy replacement, even a 50 year old device can easily be fitted with new batteries.

But go into the world of power tools where nothing's standard and it's very different. There'd be an awful lot of power tools in landfill for no reason other than the battery failed and was either too costly to replace, since a single supplier has a monopoly on one that fits, or simply isn't available at all.

From a corporate profit perspective custom batteries are great. Just change them every few years and that renders all the old gear unrepairable and keeps new product sales up.

From a consumer and environmental perspective standardisation wins absolutely since it creates the critical mass required for multiple manufacturers to offer compatible batteries and it means that any vehicle can have a new one fitted no matter how common or uncommon it is.


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

I cant understand the Im in the middle bit.
Isnt this whole excercise about maximum efficiency, minimum impact?
In the world of power tools, they all have the same tools, they all use different batteries, how that makes sense is beyond me, when we are trying to reduce wastage and duplication.


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I cant understand the Im in the middle bit.
> Isnt this whole excercise about maximum efficiency, minimum impact?
> In the world of power tools, they all have the same tools, they all use different batteries, how that makes sense is beyond me, when we are trying to reduce wastage and duplication.




Stick with one brand.


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## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Stick with one brand.



That kind of speaks for itself, what if you chose Black and Decker?
Please at least be sensible, if you want to have constructive debate.
You're saying your power tool should be sent to the tip, because the company went broke and no longer make the battery?


----------



## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That kind of speaks for itself, what if you chose Black and Decker?
> Please at least be sensible, if you want to have constructive debate.








__





						Milwaukee Tool | Official Australia Site of Milwaukee Tool | Nothing but HEAVY DUTY®
					

Milwaukee Tools' great line up of power tools, hand tools and accessories are available in store and online through Authorised Milwaukee Retail Partners. | Milwaukee Australia




					www.milwaukeetool.com.au


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## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep pretty well sums you up, buy the brand and hope like $hit they dont go broke, what a winning mantra. LOL
You new age guys crack me up.
What is so scary about having a common battery? No snob value.
Ive got a milwaukee drill, there is no way you can put it in your Ryobi skin, it might catch something. Lol


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## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yep pretty well sums you up, buy the brand and hope like $hit they dont go broke, what a winning mantra. LOL
> You new age guys crack me up.
> What is so scary about having a common battery? No snob value.




Oh dear, did I hurt your feelings? Poor Diddums


----------



## sptrawler (26 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Oh dear, did I hurt your feelings? Poor Diddums



Not at all, your the one with the insecurity issues not me.
Ive been retired for years, Im not trying to impress my mates, with my car.Lol
Also what is that, did I hurt your feelings $hit princess, is that how you slap down your mates. Lol
You Tesla guys are starting to fit a mold.


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## JohnDe (26 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Not at all, your the one with the insecurity issues not me.
> Ive been retired for years, Im not trying to impress my mates, with my car.Lol
> Also what is that, did I hurt your feelings $hit princess, is that how you slap down your mates. Lol
> You Tesla guys are starting to fit a mold.




Well you’re trying to impress someone now, I’m guessing it’s Mrs. Palmer


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## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Well you’re trying to impress someone now, I’m guessing it’s Mrs. Palmer



Well thats better than you and her five sisters lol, you are a real princess arent you. 
Hey Ive got a Tesla and I use Milwaukee electric tools, you're real special mate.
I bet your personal assistant has to walk along side you with a full length mirror.


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## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well thats better than you and her five sisters lol, you are a real princess arent you.
> Hey Ive got a Tesla and I use Milwaukee electric tools, you're real special mate.
> I bet your personal assistant has to walk along side you with a full length mirror.




If you say so.


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> If you say so.



Well I just love your passive aggressive approach to issues, when people have differing opinions to you, but it does show not everyone has the same view on issues.
From memory, thats two for two.


----------



## Value Collector (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yep pretty well sums you up, buy the brand and hope like $hit they dont go broke, what a winning mantra. LOL
> You new age guys crack me up.
> What is so scary about having a common battery? No snob value.
> Ive got a milwaukee drill, there is no way you can put it in your Ryobi skin, it might catch something. Lol



The power tool companies earn big margins on battery sales, the last thing they want is to have a bunch of no name brand third party companies coming in and flooding the market with cheap batteries.

Suddenly they wouldn’t be able to lock customers into to purchasing an entire range, and they wouldn’t be able to make 400% mark ups on spare batteries, people would by the third party batteries sold on 10% mark up, and mix and match their skins based on which ever one was on sale that week.


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The power tool companies earn big margins on battery sales, the last thing they want is to have a bunch of no name brand third party companies coming in and flooding the market with cheap batteries.



Which is exactly what I said, so that doesnt help your Tesla buddy. Lol


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well I just love your passive aggressive approach to issues, when people have differing opinions to you, but it does show not everyone has the same view on issues.
> From memory, thats two for two.




OK


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Which is exactly what I said, so that doesnt help your Tesla buddy. Lol


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

I just wish @rederob would join in, he can at least make a valid argument from nothing.


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I just wish @rederob would join in, he can at least make a valid argument from nothing.



That’s nice to know, thanks.


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> View attachment 139530



That is amazing, but I owned a Porsche 911, twenty years ago, so when I ordered an EV I tested as many as I could and ordered.




Not trying to impress, just want something, that works for me and I can pass on to one of the kids in five years time, when things move on.


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is amazing, but I owned a Porsche 911, twenty years ago, so when I ordered an EV I tested as many as I could and ordered.
> 
> View attachment 139531
> 
> ...




Nice. I like the current styling theme they use.


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Nice. I like the current styling theme they use.



Um it's pretty bland, same price as the Tesla 3 standard, but the reason I sold the Porsche has now moved on 20 years, so a low slung car doesn't work any better for my 20 year older body.
Actually my old Porsche was on sale recently  on carsales for $90k, I sold it 20 years ago for $20k.
Never look at life in the rear view mirror.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The power tool companies earn big margins on battery sales, the last thing they want is to have a bunch of no name brand third party companies coming in and flooding the market with cheap batteries.



Of course - the present arrangement is highly profitable so obviously they'd like to continue it.

It's not so good for consumers or the planet however.


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Of course - the present arrangement is highly profitable so obviously they'd like to continue it.
> 
> It's not so good for consumers or the planet however.



Absolutely IMO the battery should be a standard protocol, same as they did with phone chargers, each manufacturer having their own protocol is the epitome of restrictive trade practice, that inhibits cost reductions and increases manufacturing wastage.
Yet everyone can't stop ranting and chanting, about the emissions from cooling towers rather than scream about why we have to produce that unnecessary power , it does my head in.
But it doesn't get any airplay on the useless media, which is actually understandable, because IMO they have become the most useless interfering, with mindless direction, bunch of self centered muppets, spewing endless, aimless dribble, that has climbed its way out of the slime in the last 20 years. The days of impartial intelligent reporting has gone, it is now the time for the influencers, that can get the muppets to just suck up the content.
Just my opinion. 
My rant for the year, luckily I don't think I will be here, when the chooks come home to roost.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> muppets to just suck up the content.
> Just my opinion.
> My rant for the year, luckily I don't think I will be here, when the chooks come home to roost.



Muppets, chooks...

Will they be bringing the white elephants with them?   

Seriously, standardisation is a good idea with pretty much anything indeed it's a key to competition and lowering prices. That is, of course, exactly why manufacturers won't choose to go down that path.

Imagine though if we'd never had standardised household batteries, bolt sizes, audio formats and so on. As a society we'd be a lot poorer as a result.


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

So true smurf, remember when mobile phones came out and everyone was looking for a charger.
It has to happen eventually, when the dust settles, way too much inefficiency at the moment. But that always happens with new technology.
It's just a shame the useless media can't focus on something like this, which would advance Australia and the world in to the EV future.
What if Australia put forward a suggestion, to the world trade organisation, that they wanted a standard battery protocol.


----------



## qldfrog (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So true smurf, remember when mobile phones came out and everyone was looking for a charger.
> It has to happen eventually, when the dust settles, way too much inefficiency at the moment. But that always happens with new technology.
> It's just a shame the useless media can't focus on something like this, which would advance Australia and the world in to the EV future.
> What if Australia put forward a suggestion, to the world trade organisation, that they wanted a standard battery protocol.



And the funny thing is that there is nearly a de facto standard as a lot of even EVs but also laptops vacuums etc batteries nowadays rely on the same 18650 sub components.
So except for the management software burnt on the chips and the physical arrangements with cooling etc.they are often the same already.
It would be easy to ramp this up to standardised sub pack.
If you are rich show off guy,put 10 packs in your Lamborghini or Tesla Hipster special edition EV..or just drive a 2 packs cheaper MG or BYD


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I cant understand the Im in the middle bit.
> Isnt this whole excercise about maximum efficiency, minimum impact?



Having standardised parts has a benefit whether you're swapping them routinely or whether you're only swapping them at end of life.

Imagine if every ICE car needed a special battery unique to that car and which no other car used. There's no chance anyone like Battery World or the RAA, RACV etc would carry batteries to fit every car on the road and you'd be pretty much stuffed with anything more than ~20 years old.

Or if all Ford cars used bolts with a particular thread that was unique to Ford, all Mazda had their thread, all Toyota had their own thread and so on and all with different heads too. You'd need a Toyota socket set to work on a Toyota, you'd need a Ford socket set for a Ford and so on because none of it fits. Heaven help you if you lose a bolt or nut, the only place that'll be able to get one will be a dealer.

Or if every builder used a special size of water pipe, meaning that any future plumbing changes you'd need to use only their fittings because nothing else fits their special 14.2mm pipe that nobody else uses and which they've ensured by patents nobody makes any sort of adapter or converter for. Now that'll be $2000 for the new garden tap Sir.....

Etc.

Standardisation of sizes, shapes and so on has value no matter how often the components are replaced.


----------



## rederob (27 March 2022)

@sptrawler - I liked your brother's review of my future car:


----------



## rederob (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> That’s nice to know, thanks.



I wasn't sure if I was watching tennis = *love all*
Or *boxing **=*


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Imagine if every ICE car needed a special battery unique to that car and which no other car used. There's no chance anyone like Battery World or the RAA, RACV etc would carry batteries to fit every car on the road and you'd be pretty much stuffed with anything more than ~20 years old.
> 
> Or if all Ford cars used bolts with a particular thread that was unique to Ford, all Mazda had their thread, all Toyota had their own thread and so on and all with different heads too. You'd need a Toyota socket set to work on a Toyota, you'd need a Ford socket set for a Ford and so on because none of it fits. Heaven help you if you lose a bolt or nut, the only place that'll be able to get one will be a dealer.
> Etc.
> ...




The Ford Mondeo battery is different to the Toyota RAV4, which is different to a Mazda CX-5, and that battery is no good for the Mazda3, which won’t fit into the Holden Astra or the Toyota Land Cruiser, and that battery is useless for the Holden Equinox, and so it keeps going.

Now for the bolts. Ford like to use a bolt head size that is different to the a Japanese brands, thread pitches are all over the place & trying to use a bolt from a European car for an Asian car is more likely than not going to get you in trouble. Brake caliper bolts are pretty specific for each vehicle, as is sump plug bolts.

Have you looked at engine oils, automatic fluids and gear oils? There was a time when there was only 2, 3 or 4 types, now there are dozens and dozens. ICEV manufacturers have their own oil spec’s, which they keep changing for new models as they keep squeezing more power and economy from engines and less resistance from drivetrains, all the while trying to reduce wear.


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## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The Ford Mondeo battery is different to the Toyota RAV4, which is different to a Mazda CX-5, and that battery is no good for the Mazda3, which won’t fit into the Holden Astra or the Toyota Land Cruiser, and that battery is useless for the Holden Equinox, and so it keeps going.
> 
> Now for the bolts. Ford like to use a bolt head size that is different to the a Japanese brands, thread pitches are all over the place & trying to use a bolt from a European car for an Asian car is more likely than not going to get you in trouble. Brake caliper bolts are pretty specific for each vehicle, as is sump plug bolts.
> 
> Have you looked at engine oils, automatic fluids and gear oils? There was a time when there was only 2, 3 or 4 types, now there are dozens and dozens. ICEV manufacturers have their own oil spec’s, which they keep changing for new models as they keep squeezing more power and economy from engines and less resistance from drivetrains, all the while trying to reduce wear.





rederob said:


> I wasn't sure if I was watching tennis = *love all*
> Or *boxing **=*





I’ve never been big on sports. I’m more of a book person. Dune by Framk Herbert comes to mind, and Mordant's Need by Stephen R. Donaldson.


----------



## rederob (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The Ford Mondeo battery is different to the Toyota RAV4, which is different to a Mazda CX-5, and that battery is no good for the Mazda3, which won’t fit into the Holden Astra or the Toyota Land Cruiser, and that battery is useless for the Holden Equinox, and so it keeps going.
> 
> Now for the bolts. Ford like to use a bolt head size that is different to the a Japanese brands, thread pitches are all over the place & trying to use a bolt from a European car for an Asian car is more likely than not going to get you in trouble. Brake caliper bolts are pretty specific for each vehicle, as is sump plug bolts.
> 
> Have you looked at engine oils, automatic fluids and gear oils? There was a time when there was only 2, 3 or 4 types, now there are dozens and dozens. ICEV manufacturers have their own oil spec’s, which they keep changing for new models as they keep squeezing more power and economy from engines and less resistance from drivetrains, all the while trying to reduce wear.



Yep, same with tyres and wheels, headlight and tail lamps, electronic componentry, seats, door handles, windows, windscreens, and the list goes on and on. 
It's a spare parts nightmare, and costing car owners a fortune in insurance because writing off cars is often cheaper than trying to fix them.

On the BEV battery issue, LFP degradation is minimal over a car's lifetime compared to nickel ternary (mostly "performance") batteries.  Also on battery swapping stations, the electric motor scooter sector has solved this brilliantly:

(note in the video that a Taiwanese dollar is about AU 5 cents, so the monthly membership is about AU$14.)
You only need to watch the first 5.5 minutes, but after that it talks about the role of subsidies in effecting the transition.  The question that needs serious thought in this regard is the extent that we - via the government - accelerate national innovation infrastructure so that less efficient markets are less of a drain on our productivity and competitiveness.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> My rant for the year, luckily I don't think I will be here, when the chooks come home to roost.




Starting up the cruising again ?


----------



## SirRumpole (27 March 2022)

Solar powered EV's ? Maybe one day.


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## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Starting up the cruising again ?



Booked a cruise for Oct 2023, if we can't go by then, we may as well give it away.


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## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

The idea of battery swapping has been around for over a decade, it has sent one Israeli company, Better Place, broke. Why? Because of cost and the fast pace of improvements in battery technology and charging speeds.

*How Is This A Good Idea?: EV Battery Swapping *
_Swap this technological dead-end out for better batteries, improved superchargers and more universal EV charging standards

“Battery as a Service” subscription: Think of it as buying a car with “Batteries Not Included.” Since batteries remain the most expensive EV component, the plan saves owners roughly $10,000 on the car’s price. In return, owners pay about $142 a month to lease a 70 kWh pack with six monthly swaps. In April, Nio claimed it had performed 2 million total exchanges at its Power Swap stations, with users gaining an average of 123 miles of range per swap. 

That’s a solid range boost in five minutes. But time, in multiple senses, is still conspiring against battery swapping. Jeremy Michalek, a mechanical engineering professor and director of Carnegie Mellon’s vehicle electrification group, calls battery swapping a relic of a bygone EV age. 

T*oday’s new EVs routinely deliver 200 to 400 miles of range, with a potential 517 miles for the forthcoming Lucid Air*. Those EVs *charge in 35 minutes or less at Tesla Superchargers* and other oases for time-pressed drivers. DC fast charging times have soared by roughly sevenfold, to today’s top 350-kilowatt units. *Why do drivers need a contraption to extract the 630-kilogram battery of a Porsche Taycan Turbo, when they can juice that battery in 20 minutes flat?* Lucid says its Air will add up to 300 miles of range in the same 20 minutes. That’s enough for nearly five hours of highway driving at 60 mph, before it’s time for a fill-up.  

*the world has spoken, loudly. Governments around the world are choosing DC charging as the tech winner*, including President Joe Biden’s plan to invest $15 billion to install at least 500,000 public chargers. Tesla demonstrated battery-swapping in 2013 on its Model S before abandoning the tech—with reasons including cumbersome stations and tepid consumer interest—in favor of its Supercharger network that now appears a smarter bet. 

Since batteries are so expensive, bulky and resource-intensive, Michalek says, creating vast networks of *swappable packs—which must be stored, kept charged and maintained—would be a waste of money and resources*, while expanding carbon footprints. Many surplus batteries would end up sitting around, waiting for customers. Ultimately, customers would absorb these exorbitant costs. Seeing the conundrum, swap proponents have begun touting the possibility of stored batteries returning power to the grid. 

Building and servicing a swapping infrastructure seems another nightmare. *Connecting EVs to the existing grid, via a simple plug, is surely smarter than a shell game of batteries and robotic helpers.* In the swapping model, polluting trucks would have to haul batteries between stations according to demand. It’s bike rentals writ large, only for 1,500-pound battery packs that cost $10,000 and more. The stations’ complex machinery, especially intermingled with dirty cars and packs, would require far more maintenance than a charger with virtually no moving parts. _

_*Battery-swap proponents want you to see cars as cordless drills*__, but they’re nothing like that. The design of each automaker’s batteries is deeply entwined with unique vehicle architectures that support vast lineups of car models. Even within a single automaker, batteries are bringing varying module counts and orientations to maximize energy storage, as with GM’s new Ultium packs. Modern packs are designed as integrated, weight-bearing structural elements to pass rigorous crash testing.  None are designed for one-size-fits-all or easy removal and reinstallation.

Ultimately, competition and capitalism itself spells doom for battery swaps. *Commonized vehicles and battery packs would require every major automaker to tear up existing and future product plans and start from scratch.

And to what gain?* Certainly, automakers partner on a limited basis to share technology, such as GM and Honda jointly developing two Honda/Acura models with Ultium batteries. But i*magine a Tesla or General Motors agreeing to essentially give away their most-precious intellectual property in today’s industry:* The designs, electronic controls and chemistries of batteries, along with the EVs they power. These core competencies include giga-scaled factories for proprietary lithium-ion cells, *worth billions in investment*. Imagine Elon Musk, and the automotive giants racing to catch up with him, calling a competitive truce, and *working hand-in-hand to standardize every battery, brand and model. They’d be doing this not to make a better, safer EV for customers, or in their own self-interest. Instead, they’d be commonizing components so that Agassi-style disruptors*—start-ups in the nonexistent “business” of battery swapping—can literally leverage their way into their cars and multi-trillion-dollar industry; with robotic stations to jack up cars, switch out batteries, and take a cut of any profits. *Any automaker invested in current EVs and the charging model would be cutting their own throat, and handing potential competitors the knife.*

Experts warn that time is already running short to accelerate the transition to electric transportation, if climate change is to be stopped in its tracks. Fast-tracking a reliable charging infrastructure has become the consensus solution. Even that will require a Marshall Plan-level of political will, private investment and government support. In the face of this dire situation, *battery swapping is a distraction and dead-end that the planet can’t afford.*_









						How Is This A Good Idea?: EV Battery Swapping
					

Swap this technological dead-end out for better batteries, improved superchargers and more universal EV charging standards




					spectrum.ieee.org


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

Just completely missing the point, but it doesn't really matter.
Whether a battery is fully bolted in and takes several hours to remove, or it is a standard fixing that takes minutes to remove, makes sense to me. 
But I can understand the companies wanting to make the profits, because if they were standard, third party manufacturers would get into the action.


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Just completely missing the point, but it doesn't really matter.
> Whether a battery is fully bolted in and takes several hours to remove, or it is a standard fixing that takes minutes to remove, makes sense to me.
> But I can understand the companies wanting to make the profits, because if they were standard, third party manufacturers would get into the action.




The point is cost, environment and future proofing. Battery swapping adds cost across all aspects of EV ownership, and is more harmful for the environment. Read the full article, the link is supplied in my previous post.

Could also add safety to the equation. As new models require crash testing and the battery is an integral part of the vehicle structure, vehicle manufacturers will have their hands tied to a ‘one size fits all’ battery. Who will be responsible for any injury and deaths caused by a structural failure in a crash?


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The point is cost, environment and future proofing. Battery swapping adds cost across all aspects of EV ownership, and is more harmful for the environment. Read the full article, the link is supplied in my previous post.
> 
> Could also add safety to the equation. As new models require crash testing and the battery is an integral part of the vehicle structure, vehicle manufacturers will have their hands tied to a ‘one size fits all’ battery. Who will be responsible for any injury and deaths caused by a structural failure in a crash?











						Tesla and Nio supplier CATL confirms battery swap rumours
					

Chinese battery giant CATL confirms rumours and announces that it will be entering the battery swap market.




					thedriven.io
				



Chinese battery giant and supplier of batteries for EV giant Tesla and China EV maker Nio, CATL, has confirmed rumours and announced that it will be entering the battery swap market.
According to several local sources quoting the company’s official WeChat account, CATL is set to hold a launch event on Tuesday unveiling its battery swap brand, to be called EVOGO.
*Read more:* CATL says Evogo battery swap will work with 80% of all pure EVs
Little is known in the way of specifics at this point – unsurprising, considering all we have had so far are rumours and unconfirmed reports, and CATL has only just announced its plans for a launch event.

However, we do know that in December CATL signed a partnership agreement with the Guizhou province in southwestern China which would see them build a battery swap network. The company is a leader in battery manufacture in China, and reportedly commanded 52% of the market there in 2021.
According to Chinese EV media, CATL and the Guizhou provincial government signed an agreement on December 24 which would see the two cooperate on an EV battery swap network across the region and promotion thereof.

But, it is not likely that Tesla (which makes around 50% of its cars at a factory in Shanghai) will join the fray. It is currently making plans to build Model Y and Model 3 with structural battery packs which would presumably require a considerable re-think to make them swappable.
More than that, we don’t know yet, and we await CATL’s official January 18 launch event (at 6:30pm Tuesday evening Australia time) for its EVOGO battery swap plans.


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Tesla and Nio supplier CATL confirms battery swap rumours
> 
> 
> Chinese battery giant CATL confirms rumours and announces that it will be entering the battery swap market.
> ...




Granted this article was published mid 2021, it’s still relevant in describing the pros & cons.

One glance at product plans of global automakers underlines the truth: Aside from Nio—now 25-percent owned by China’s local Hefei government, following a forced $1 billion bailout last year—no automaker seems remotely interested in joining this quixotic scheme.









						How Is This A Good Idea?: EV Battery Swapping
					

Swap this technological dead-end out for better batteries, improved superchargers and more universal EV charging standards




					spectrum.ieee.org


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

And here is an article from two weeks ago.








						Robot Battery-Swapping Might Be the Best Way to Recharge an EV
					

Electric cars "refill" slowly, even at their fastest. This changes everything.




					www.cnet.com
				



Ample's de Souza says this approach frees carmakers to do their own thing and let his company handle the business of designing and supporting swappable EV batteries within the carmaker's battery space. Ample's modular battery design also creates a granularity that makes battery repairs and upgrades much easier since an entire fixed 1,000-plus pound battery doesn't have to come out. Ample is initially focused on installing its tech into high-utilization ride-share and corporate fleets so it expects to see each car at least once a week, creating a lot of natural opportunities for easy battery service.
De Souza says his firm has received serious interest from carmakers because Ample doesn't try to change what they do, but actually asks that they do less by not even installing a main battery in some cars. I will be interested to see how long and deep that welcome turns out to be: Batteries are the new engines and asking a carmaker to bend your way with theirs can be like asking Coke to tweak its recipe for your vending machine. Ample will need to convince manufacturers that its battery swaps are worthy of support and won't harm the carmakers' reputation at a time when all carmakers are trying to convince a largely skeptical public that EVs are as normal and reliable as combustion-engine cars
The "Goldilocks" solution for electric car charging is not yet clear and may never be a one-size-fits-all proposition like gas stations. But certainly for managed electric fleets that are expected to grow in prominence, battery swapping smartly addresses the real pain of charging infrastructure rather than an overstated emphasis on battery capacity.


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

From your article, this sums it up IMO. It would lead to cheaper batteries, but there is no money in that.
_Commonized vehicles and battery packs would require every major automaker to tear up existing and future product plans and start from scratch.

And to what gain? Certainly, automakers partner on a limited basis to share technology, such as GM and Honda jointly developing two Honda/Acura models with Ultium batteries. But imagine a Tesla or General Motors agreeing to essentially give away their most-precious intellectual property in today’s industry: The designs, electronic controls and chemistries of batteries, along with the EVs they power. These core competencies include giga-scaled factories for proprietary lithium-ion cells, worth billions in investment. Imagine Elon Musk, and the automotive giants racing to catch up with him, calling a competitive truce, and working hand-in-hand to standardize every battery, brand and model. They’d be doing this not to make a better, safer EV for customers, or in their own self-interest. Instead, they’d be commonizing components so that Agassi-style disruptors—start-ups in the nonexistent “business” of battery swapping—can literally leverage their way into their cars and multi-trillion-dollar industry; with robotic stations to jack up cars, switch out batteries, and take a cut of any profits. Any automaker invested in current EVs and the charging model would be cutting their own throat, and handing potential competitors the knife_.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The Ford Mondeo battery is different to the Toyota RAV4, which is different to a Mazda CX-5, and that battery is no good for the Mazda3, which won’t fit into the Holden Astra or the Toyota Land Cruiser, and that battery is useless for the Holden Equinox, and so it keeps going.



There's a limited number of standard sizes and that has long been the case.

Take just about any ICE car to an automotive battery shop and they'll sell you the non-OEM branded battery that fits straight in and which is an identical replacement apart from brand. Basically every car over 10 years old, and most over 5 years, will have done just that already.

Same reason the RAA, RACV etc can turn up with a suitable lead acid battery for an ICE already in the van. There's only a limited number of types they need to carry.

Now I'm well aware that manufacturers would like to have their own set of custom parts but that's not to the advantage of anyone, especially not the environment. It makes the car a throwaway item basically if even the simplest part costs a fortune and isn't readily available. They'll do it to the extent they can get away with it however, same as all product manufacturers, but it's not a good thing from any perspective other than profit.


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's a limited number of standard sizes and that has long been the case.
> 
> Take just about any ICE car to an automotive battery shop and they'll sell you the non-OEM branded battery that fits straight in and which is an identical replacement apart from brand. Basically every car over 10 years old, and most over 5 years, will have done just that already.
> 
> ...




Maybe 15 years ago, not now with smart batteries & ‘stop-start’ engines.

I’m guessing you haven’t had the pleasure of looking at a battery catalogue.

Tomorrow, give your local battery shop a call and ask them if you can put a battery from a standard Mazda into a Mazda with stop-start technology. While you’re at it, ask for battery pricing for a Holden Equinox with stop star technology.


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> From your article, this sums it up IMO. It would lead to cheaper batteries, but there is no money in that.
> _Commonized vehicles and battery packs would require every major automaker to tear up existing and future product plans and start from scratch.
> 
> And to what gain? Certainly, automakers partner on a limited basis to share technology, such as GM and Honda jointly developing two Honda/Acura models with Ultium batteries. But imagine a Tesla or General Motors agreeing to essentially give away their most-precious intellectual property in today’s industry: The designs, electronic controls and chemistries of batteries, along with the EVs they power. These core competencies include giga-scaled factories for proprietary lithium-ion cells, worth billions in investment. Imagine Elon Musk, and the automotive giants racing to catch up with him, calling a competitive truce, and working hand-in-hand to standardize every battery, brand and model. They’d be doing this not to make a better, safer EV for customers, or in their own self-interest. Instead, they’d be commonizing components so that Agassi-style disruptors—start-ups in the nonexistent “business” of battery swapping—can literally leverage their way into their cars and multi-trillion-dollar industry; with robotic stations to jack up cars, switch out batteries, and take a cut of any profits. Any automaker invested in current EVs and the charging model would be cutting their own throat, and handing potential competitors the knife_.




No where in that paragraph does it indicate ‘cheaper batteries’. What it says is that for the current industry to open their R&D knowledge to everyone is equivalent to opening your bank account to your neighbours. 

Billions of dollars invested in R&D by the likes of Tesla, GM, Toyota, Ford and so on would be turned over to any company that can make a battery. “_Any automaker invested in current EVs and the charging model would be cutting their own throat, and handing potential competitors the knife_.”


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> No where in that paragraph does it indicate ‘cheaper batteries’. What it says is that for the current industry to open their R&D knowledge to everyone is equivalent to opening your bank account to your neighbours.
> 
> Billions of dollars invested in R&D by the likes of Tesla, GM, Toyota, Ford and so on would be turned over to any company that can make a battery. “_Any automaker invested in current EVs and the charging model would be cutting their own throat, and handing potential competitors the knife_.”



Look we just see things a bit differently, to me batteries will get cheaper and better, as they get developed. I feel open source would develop much faster, than propriety but who knows.
There is a lot of money wasted by every maker going their own way, it IMO, is a bit like most ICE vehicles ended up just using Bosch fuel injection, it saved the manufacturers having to spend money on the fuel system then that money could be utilised to make their product better or cheaper.
Meanwhile Bosch continues to improve and develop the fuel injection product, to suit the various manufacturers and legislative requirements.
But like I say it is only my opinion, maybe it wouldn't work in the case of batteries, but there seems to be a hell of a lot of duplication.


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Look we just see things a bit differently, to me batteries will get cheaper and better, as they get developed. I feel open source would develop much faster, than propriety but who knows.
> There is a lot of money wasted by every maker going their own way, it IMO, is a bit like most ICE vehicles ended up just using Bosch fuel injection, it saved the manufacturers having to spend money on the fuel system then that money could be utilised to make their product better or cheaper.
> Meanwhile Bosch continues to improve and develop the fuel injection product, to suit the various manufacturers and legislative requirements.
> But like I say it is only my opinion, maybe it wouldn't work in the case of batteries, but there seems to be a hell of a lot of duplication.




Yes we see things differently, but I’m using current information.

Bosch is still a big electronics manufacturer but hasn’t been dominant in the fuel injection world since the 90’s. 

Opinions are fine for bbq talks and politics, but for technical & investing discussion it’s handy to use actual reference materials.

I looked at the battery swap industry 2 years ago, researched a bit because I thought about investing in it, specifically NIO but it didn’t add up. Instead I I invested in TSLA.

The article I posted is one of many, which offers industry reasons rather than opinions.

Invest in NIO If you believe so strongly in battery swap technology.


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes we see things differently, but I’m using current information.
> 
> Bosch is still a big electronics manufacturer but hasn’t been dominant in the fuel injection world since the 90’s.
> 
> ...



I haven't invested in any car manufacturers, only battery materials. at this point.


----------



## JohnDe (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I haven't invested in any car manufacturers, only battery materials. at this point.




Well now I understand, battery swap stations are a great idea to increase your profits because there will have to be twice as many batteries produced. One for the car and one for the swap station


----------



## sptrawler (27 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I understand what you are saying, but it isn't just a case of a lick of paint, the bottle has to be taken to a facility to be tested to ensure there is not structural issues, if there are it has to be disposed of at another specific facility to ensure that it is done in a safe and correct manner.
> 
> 
> The question of how many batteries are required, is somewhat like how many charging stations are required, it will depend on the amount of vehicles the area is servicing.
> ...



If you go back to where we started this discussion, it wasn't focused on the swap out industry, it was focused on the standardising of the battery pack to enable it to be used in a wide range of vehicles.
The swap station issue was a side issue that would be available for people who required it, if you re read above, I actually said you and Value Collector wouldn't ever swap your battery out until it was stuffed as you would just continue to charge at home.
The focus of the discussion now has been lost and the whole discussion is focused on the swap out station model.
Like I said the duplication and  wastage in having  propriety batteries must be enormous, but as I keep saying, we are looking at it from different perspectives.
So be it, no need to get bent out of shape, neither of us is going to have any effect on the outcome..


----------



## JohnDe (28 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If you go back to where we started this discussion, it wasn't focused on the swap out industry, it was focused on the standardising of the battery pack to enable it to be used in a wide range of vehicles.
> The swap station issue was a side issue that would be available for people who required it, if you re read above, I actually said you and Value Collector wouldn't ever swap your battery out until it was stuffed as you would just continue to charge at home.
> The focus of the discussion now has been lost and the whole discussion is focused on the swap out station model.
> Like I said the duplication and  wastage in having  propriety batteries must be enormous, but as I keep saying, we are looking at it from different perspectives.
> So be it, no need to get bent out of shape, neither of us is going to have any effect on the outcome..




The start for me is my somewhere from divs4ever #5,636, where you quote me and mention gas bottles and swapping. 

divs4 comment "_well i suspect a well-run organization will first run some checks on the battery ( batteries ) received to be *swapped* ( and recharged later ) so would think there will be more batteries waiting in the racks than expected customers say 10% to 20% more relying on newly received batteries..._."

Which started from me asking a series of questions starting with "_How many batteries required to be waiting in storage?_" To mullokintyre's posted article *Inside China's electric drive for swappable car batteries  *

This is when you came in, quoting me, and saying_ "It is an interesting concept and it isn't without precedent, people lease and *swap* out their their gas bottles. This ensures..."_

I still believe that battery swapping is an inefficient way to bring the cost of EVs down. As for battery standardisation? It sounds like a good idea, but also as the article points out, the battery is part of the vehicle structure and strength, making all batteries the same will dampen vehicle and battery development and thus cost reduction. 

Standardisation is fine, once the item has reached its near or full development peak, like a gas bottle. However, if standardisation is brought in too early, it will slow development. Because any major update could affect the suitability of installation into older style vehicles. Thus battery development stops.



> *How Is This A Good Idea?: EV Battery Swapping *
> Swap this technological dead-end out for better batteries, improved superchargers and more universal EV charging standards​Battery swapping has become a lot like hydrogen fuel cells for passenger cars: They’re automotive ideas that are never quite born, but just won’t die.
> 
> Here in 2021, Battery swapping in EVs has become an especially bad idea. It’s a technical and market dead-end that seems more about separating green investors from their money than providing a solution. That’s despite credulous media reports that coo over the (admittedly cool) spectacle of robots switching car batteries like greasy Rube Goldbergs—but tend to avoid asking tough questions about how it’s supposed to work in the real world.
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (28 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The start for me is my somewhere from divs4ever #5,636, where you quote me and mention gas bottles and swapping.
> 
> divs4 comment "_well i suspect a well-run organization will first run some checks on the battery ( batteries ) received to be *swapped* ( and recharged later ) so would think there will be more batteries waiting in the racks than expected customers say 10% to 20% more relying on newly received batteries..._."
> 
> ...



And you may be correct, but imagine the wastage in the World , because we haven't standardised on either LHD or RHD, because we haven't standardised on what voltage and frequency is the most efficient for consumer mains, so the same appliances have to be made differently and have different components to suit the various countries. When you travel, you have to take adaptors, because we never even standardised plugs.
Yet here we are at the beginning of the journey, with a brand new device, that is to be made in the hundreds of millions and we are heading down the same track.
It has only been very recently the makers are starting to agree on a common charging plug.
Yet we never stop telling everyone we are doing this to save the planet.
I wish, IMO as usual we are doing it to maximise our profit and nothing gets in the way of that.


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## JohnDe (28 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> And you may be correct, but imagine the wastage in the World , because we haven't standardised on either LHD or RHD, because we haven't standardised on what voltage and frequency is the most efficient for consumer mains, so the same appliances have to be made differently and have different components to suit the various countries. When you travel, you have to take adaptors, because we never even standardised plugs.
> Yet here we are at the beginning of the journey, with a brand new device, that is to be made in the hundreds of millions and we are heading down the same track.
> It has only been very recently the makers are starting to agree on a common plug.
> Yet we never stop telling everyone we are doing this to save the planet.
> I wish, IMO as usual we are doing it to maximise our profit and nothing gets in the way of that.




Slowly but surely, some standardisation is coming, it's already happening with charging connections. Tesla is leading the charge due to its number of sales and charging stations.



> EVgo announced it would be bringing Tesla compatible connectors (CCS type 2) to over 600 of its US charging stations. Regardless of the other connectors and their compatibility, Tesla’s Supercharger network already features over 20,000 charging stalls at over 2,100 stations around the world.
> 
> Most recently, Tesla CEO Elon Musk has shared that the American automaker will begin sharing its EV network with other EVs later in 2021.












						Electric vehicle (EV) charging standards and how they differ
					

A in depth guide explaining the different standards of electric vehicle charging and how they vary from one another at home and in public.




					electrek.co


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## sptrawler (28 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Slowly but surely, some standardisation will come, it's already happening with charging connections. Tesla is leading the charge due to its number of sales and charging stations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tesla is leading the charge on all fronts and hopefully as I said earlier Musk moves into the battery space, because as I said that is where the real money is one supplier or a very few suppliers, making batteries for the automakers.
Then the auto makers can make the roller skate, which they have been doing for a century and they are good at and the batteries can be developed as a common component, IMO it would help recycling, develop the technology in the most efficient manner and minimise duplication and wastage.
But hey like I said it is only me day dreaming, it is just about time a holistic approach was taken with everything that is developed IMO.
We do have one planet and it does have limited resources and we are going through them at an ever faster rate.
The one thing we can do is slow that process down, by minimising wastage, maximising the efficiency with which we use the resources and reduce the requirement for duplication for duplications sake.
That way, humans might extend the time they have left on the planet, before we end up making it uninhabitable. Jeez and I'm not even a greenie, just a realist.
It isn't the first time this sort of rationalisation happened, in the 1960's Bridgestone made motorcyles as well as motorcyle tyres, when there was a major down turn, the Japanese manufacturers got together and said look this aint working Bridgestone if you stop making motorcycles, we will use your tyres. So Bridgestone did just that, and became OEM supplier for Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki.
I actually had a Bridgestone motor bike in the early 1970's, as a bush basher. lol

_In the early 1960s, the Japanese motorcycle industry took a downturn. Bridgestone's core business of tyre manufacture kept the company secure and they took on engineers from Lilac and Tohatsu when those companies stopped motorcycle production. These engineers were responsible for a new range of motorcycle, initially with the 90 cc BS-90 in 1965. This was followed by the BS-50 and BS-175 in 1965 and the BS-350 in 1967. These machines were powered by state of the art disc valve two strokes which Tohatsu had previously been involved in._[4]

_The advanced technical specification resulted in high production costs and a resulting high retail price. The 350 GTR sold in some areas at about the same price as the 650 cc Triumph Bonneville.[9] The high price caused the motorcycles to sell in smaller quantities than other Japanese motorcycles. The other Japanese motorcycle companies again pressurised Bridgestone, this time to either supply them tyres or to manufacture motorcycles but not both.[10] In order to protect its interests supplying tyres to other manufacturers, Bridgestone pulled out of motorcycle manufacturing[6][7] in 1970. The factory space was converted to tyre production.__[_4]


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## sptrawler (28 March 2022)

GM's new Cadillac E.V








						“Milestone” General Motors electric car begins production
					

The Cadillac Lyriq heralds the beginning of an all-electric future for General Motors.




					www.drive.com.au
				




The Cadillac Lyriq is built on General Motors’ new ‘Ultium’ EV platform, powered by a 255kW/440Nm electric motor on the rear axle.
A 100kWh lithium-ion battery gives an estimated driving range of around 483 kilometres (300 miles).

Deliveries of the Lyriq are expected to begin in the second half of 2022, with a starting price of approximately $US60,000 ($AU80,000).
When asked about the possibility of the Cadillac Lyriq coming to Australia – should a right-hand-drive version or conversion program become available – a representative of General Motors Special Vehicles (GMSV) in Australia told _Drive:_
"The Cadillac Lyriq is another vehicle in the General Motors line-up that demonstrates our vision of an all-electric future. GM is not making announcements at this stage in relation to additional global markets."


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## basilio (28 March 2022)

Last year an engineering company announced plans to electrify long distance trucking in Australia by using replacement battery packs. The savings on fuel costs make this a very compelling case.

They are still proving the practicalities of the process but they have already opened  research on significant improvements in battery technology.  I could see this battery company going exceptionally well if/when it proves it's product. (Nice theory . However SP has dropped from $2.05 when this announcement was madem last Nov.  to 80.5c today... Bit of a worry.)

Li-S Energy (ASX:LIS) to develop new lithium truck batteries with Janus Electric​​ 


	

		
			
		

		
	
                                                                                                 This Prime Mover was converted by Janus Electric and is operating with a Janus Electric Motor and exchangeable 600KWh battery pack. Source: Li-S Energy                                                            
​Be the first with the news that moves the market


Daily Digest
Weekly Summary
Li-S Energy (LIS) signs a collaboration agreement with Janus Electric to develop and test a new range of lithium-sulphur and/or lithium metal battery packs
The packs will be used in exchangeable batteries for trucks that have been converted from diesel to electric energy
Should testing be successful, Li-S Energy is expected to continue supplying battery packs to Janus as the vehicle maker phases out lithium-ion batteries
Shares in Li-S Energy are up 4.06 per cent to $2.05 as of 11:36 am AEDT





__





						Li-S Energy (ASX:LIS) to develop new lithium truck batteries with Janus Electric
					

Li-S Energy (ASX:LIS) has signed a collaboration agreement with Janus Electric to develop and test a new range of lithium sulphur and lithium metal battery packs.




					themarketherald.com.au


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## rederob (29 March 2022)

basilio said:


> Last year an engineering company announced plans to electrify long distance trucking in Australia by using replacement battery packs. The savings on fuel costs make this a very compelling case.
> 
> They are still proving the practicalities of the process but they have already opened  research on significant improvements in battery technology.  I could see this battery company going exceptionally well if/when it proves it's product. (Nice theory . However SP has dropped from $2.05 when this announcement was madem last Nov.  to 80.5c today... Bit of a worry.)
> 
> ...



I haven't done the maths, but back of the envelope I reckon a 600KWh battery would weigh a bit over 2.5 tonnes, which takes away a bit of load capacity.
On the other hand a power equivalent HFCEV's hydrogen fuel "tank" would weigh much less and its extra cost of hydrogen as a fuel would be compensated by the vehicle's additional load capacity.  As large transport companies operate from discrete terminals the infrastructure at these sites, *and* at refilling hubs/nodes along major transport routes, would be easy and relatively cost effective to quickly put in place. 
I think hydrogen is going to win out over BEVs for heavy transport in the long run as I literally cannot see battery minerals as meeting the ramp up needs of BEV demand at the present rate which is now more than doubling each year:


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## rederob (29 March 2022)

Sold out: why Australia doesn’t have enough electric vehicles to go around​Put aside who published the article and read who is commenting:

*“*Our biggest issue now is actually attracting supply of electric vehicles, not getting Australians interested in buying them*,” says Behyad Jafari, the chief executive of the Electric Vehicle Council.*
*Hyundai Australia’s general manager of corporate affairs, Bill Thomas, *says the fact that there are not enough EVs available in Australia is mainly due to a lack of incentives to sell the cars here, rather than supply chain issues.
And here's what prospective EV buyers face:

Matt Holding set an alarm on his phone so he wouldn’t miss out on a limited release of electric vehicles, but by the time he jumped online to buy one they had sold out.  In six and a half minutes, all 109 of Hyundai’s electric SUVs had sold – 18,000 Australians had registered their interest.  “You’ve just got to keep on trying and get in there straight away, which seems ridiculous when you’re purchasing an $80,000 car,” Holding says of the second time he tried to beat the queue to buy Hyundai’s Ioniq 5.
Here's the corker though:

The spokesperson (for Angus Taylor) said the government’s modern manufacturing strategy was working to overcome global constraints and *strengthen local production*.
Should we break the news to the Minister that *there is no local production!*


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## Value Collector (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I haven't done the maths, but back of the envelope I reckon a 600KWh battery would weigh a bit over 2.5 tonnes, which takes away a bit of load capacity.
> On the other hand a power equivalent HFCEV's hydrogen fuel "tank" would weigh much less and its extra cost of hydrogen as a fuel would be compensated by the vehicle's additional load capacity.  As large transport companies operate from discrete terminals the infrastructure at these sites, *and* at refilling hubs/nodes along major transport routes, would be easy and relatively cost effective to quickly put in place.
> I think hydrogen is going to win out over BEVs for heavy transport in the long run as I literally cannot see battery minerals as meeting the ramp up needs of BEV demand at the present rate which is now more than doubling each year:
> View attachment 139624



You might save a bit of weight by using a hydrogen truck, but you have to have a whole extra truck on the road to deliver the hydrogen to where you need it.

However with an electric truck operating out of something like a Woolworths distribution centre, it could be charged while loading or unloading, and the not require a special trip to a refill station, and not require special trucks to deliver the fuel.


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## rederob (29 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You might save a bit of weight by using a hydrogen truck, but you have to have a whole extra truck on the road to deliver the hydrogen to where you need it.



True, but that "whole extra truck" might carry enough hydrogen to top up over 100 HFCEVs.


Value Collector said:


> However with an electric truck operating out of something like a Woolworths distribution centre, it could be charged while loading or unloading, and the not require a special trip to a refill station, and not require special trucks to deliver the fuel.



Same could apply to an HFCEV if it was thought to be an issue.
However, it will be possible to configure HFCEV fuel "tanks" such that they only ever need refueling at terminal points up to 1000km apart, thereby saving thousands every year by tapping into wholesale hydrogen prices.  That will not be possible for long/line haul EVs which will need to recharge multiple times on trips between Sydney and Brisbane, for example.

I could not find anything recent, but *this* predictor shows the effect of fuel prices:


The advantage of both Battery and Hydrogen will be very stable energy prices which will actually continue to decline with improvements to scale and technology.  Hydrogen is likely to be the big winner however, as costs for both electrolysers and grid scale renewable energy continue to decrease, while lithium ternary battery material costs will continue to increase as their raw material markets run out of supply.  (LFP batteries are unlikely to be used for heavy vehicles as their lesser energy density means they would add significant extra weight per kilometre travelled.)


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## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Sold out: why Australia doesn’t have enough electric vehicles to go around​Put aside who published the article and read who is commenting:
> 
> *“*Our biggest issue now is actually attracting supply of electric vehicles, not getting Australians interested in buying them*,” says Behyad Jafari, the chief executive of the Electric Vehicle Council.*
> *Hyundai Australia’s general manager of corporate affairs, Bill Thomas, *says the fact that there are not enough EVs available in Australia is mainly due to a lack of incentives to sell the cars here, rather than supply chain issues.
> ...



I thought the State Governments had started giving incentives.


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## rederob (29 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I thought the State Governments had started giving incentives.



Some have.
But the issue for manufacturers is which markets provide the better long run options.
As the European market is larger than the US market, and ours is pitifully small by comparison, it's more important to gain an early foothold there to sell millions of cars a year, rather than in Australia where tens of thousands is a good outcome.
In the meantime they can afford to drip feed us with meagre offerings.


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## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> Some have.
> But the issue for manufacturers is which markets provide the better long run options.
> *As the European market is larger than the US market, and ours is pitifully small by comparison, it's more important to gain an early foothold there to sell millions of cars a year, rather than in Australia where tens of thousands is a good outcome.*
> In the meantime they can afford to drip feed us with meagre offerings.



Which is actually what I said quite a few posts back, the manufacturers are struggling to meet demand in the LHD market, which is far more lucrative.
Jeez I would love an incentive, you know how much stamp duty I'm paying in W.A it is ridiculous and that's a Labor State.


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## Value Collector (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> True, but that "whole extra truck" might carry enough hydrogen to top up over 100 HFCEVs.
> 
> Same could apply to an HFCEV if it was thought to be an issue.
> However, it will be possible to configure HFCEV fuel "tanks" such that they only ever need refueling at terminal points up to 1000km apart, thereby saving thousands every year by tapping into wholesale hydrogen prices.  That will not be possible for long/line haul EVs which will need to recharge multiple times on trips between Sydney and Brisbane, for example.
> ...




Most trucks don't need to travel 1000km between points, most are travelling between fixed distribution centres, where the round trip is less than 500km.

Even the long haul inter city trucks can't legally travel 1000km without mandated rest periods that are longer than the required charging times.


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## Humid (29 March 2022)

With all the whiz bang electronics in these new cars does it really matter what side you sit?
I drive my left hook yank tank heaps and it's a floor shift 4 speed to boot!
Garbo trucks are too.....the worse that happens is going to the wrong side after returning from the shop and pretending you did it on purpose...


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## JohnDe (29 March 2022)

Humid said:


> With all the whiz bang electronics in these new cars does it really matter what side you sit?
> I drive my left hook yank tank heaps and it's a floor shift 4 speed to boot!
> Garbo trucks are too.....the worse that happens is going to the wrong side after returning from the shop and pretending you did it on purpose...




Yes.

I drive quiet a few LHD cars and it's not as safe as driving a RHD on our roads.



> *Road Casualties and Left Hand Drive HGV*
> 
> A 2009 study4 of road accidents involving left hand drive HGVs found that most of these accidents occur on the
> main arterial routes (motorways, A roads and trunk roads) and while this is true for all HGV accidents, it is
> ...


----------



## rederob (29 March 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Most trucks don't need to travel 1000km between points, most are travelling between fixed distribution centres, where the round trip is less than 500km.



All inter-capital city trips are over 500Km (excluding Canberra).
I realise there are mandatory rest breaks for all drivers, but whereas an HFCEV can utilise wholesale pricing at terminals, an EV would need to recharge/swapover at commercial rates in between.  

I was forward thinking when I posted on this because I see counter-trends for Hydrogen and Batteries over the next 5 years.  If I were a fleet owner I would be wary of a more likely critical batterial material shortage than a hydrogen shortage.  Whereas a large scale move - now, or soon - to batteries could be thwarted, an incremental move to hydrogen will get progressively cheaper and be unconstrained.


----------



## basilio (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> However, it will be possible to configure HFCEV fuel "tanks" such that they only ever need refueling at terminal points up to 1000km apart, thereby saving thousands every year by tapping into wholesale hydrogen prices. *That will not be possible for long/line haul EVs which will need to recharge multiple times on trips between Sydney and Brisbane, for example.*




This is not going to be the case with the current Janus electric truck project. Their model is based on swapping the drive train of existing trucks with electric motors and a huge plug in battery pack. There will be a *single * service centre mid way between Sydney and Brisbane where trucks will swap battery packs. (Obviously similar service centres at each end). The current trial is proceeding using Li-On battery packs.

My recent contribution( 5704 ) to the thread was highlighting the development of Li S batteries and the role of Janus in trialling the units for their trucks. These  batteries will carry far more energy and be substantially lighter than Li Ion.  Worth checking out on the LIS website. They intend to establish a small commercial operation in March 2022 to produce enough batteries for commercial trials.

               App 4D and Interim Financial Report Six Months 31 Dec 2021 









						Aussie company Janus Electric charges up electric trucks
					






					www.januselectric.com.au


----------



## rederob (29 March 2022)

basilio said:


> This is not going to be the case with the current Janus electric truck project. Their model is based on swapping the drive train of existing trucks with electric motors and a huge plug in battery pack. There will be a *single * service centre mid way between Sydney and Brisbane where trucks will swap battery packs. (Obviously similar service centres at each end). The current trial is proceeding using Li-On battery packs.
> 
> My recent contribution( 5704 ) to the thread was highlighting the development of Li S batteries and the role of Janus in trialling the units for their trucks. These  batteries will carry far more energy and be substantially lighter than Li Ion.  Worth checking out on the LIS website. They intend to establish a small commercial operation in March 2022 to produce enough batteries for commercial trials.
> 
> ...



I am definitely supportive of battery technologies for all vehicles and so is Elon Musk, as well for heavy transport.
And I like the NIO battery swap idea for cars that is working well in China, but maybe it won't in Australia.  An issue for heavy vehicles will be "standardisation".
Nikola is looking at line haul hubs for its HFCEVS, but that infrastructure will not be dedicated to Nikola.  Whereas without standardisation the LI-S and Janus Electric partnership may be confined to a niche market.


----------



## Value Collector (29 March 2022)

Humid said:


> With all the whiz bang electronics in these new cars does it really matter what side you sit?
> I drive my left hook yank tank heaps and it's a floor shift 4 speed to boot!
> Garbo trucks are too.....the worse that happens is going to the wrong side after returning from the shop and pretending you did it on purpose...



The Tesla semi truck has the driver sit in the middle.


----------



## Humid (29 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes.
> 
> I drive quiet a few LHD cars and it's not as safe as driving a RHD on our roads.



Yeah left hand drive trucks with European drivers.....what could go wrong....


----------



## JohnDe (29 March 2022)

Humid said:


> Yeah left hand drive trucks with European drivers.....what could go wrong....




You could blame the driver, however the study found that the contributing cause of the accidents studied was the blind post that LHD vehicles cause when driven on RHD roads. 

You could also say that a HGV has less visibility than a car, even though the driver is sitting up well above normal traffic and usually has larger windows.



> Left-hand drive are 3.4 times more likely to be involved in these types of crashes than right-hand drive HGVs.
> The study also found that left-hand drive HGV drivers were more likely to be at least partially at fault for the
> accidents in which they were involved, and *the contributory factor most often assigned to them by the
> investigating police officers was ‘failed to look properly’. This was often associated with their vehicle’s blind
> spot, which was a factor in 76%* of their accidents in this study.




I've driven a lot of LHD cars, they require the driver to be more aware of the surroundings when turning right or merging into the right lane. It is because the car is set up for easy driving on roads that require the car and driver to be on the right side of the road. 

Classic cars are a different story because they are only on the road on rare occasions and the driver is extra cautious.

Allowing thousands of everyday driving LHD vehicles onto the roads and people will fall into old habits, even with today's safety features it won't stop someone doing a quick right hand turn, at speed, when they didn't notice the other car in the blind spot. Yes the car safety features can warn the driver and try and stop the collision, but the driver is still the one that has full control, and not all vehicle safety features are the same.


----------



## Value Collector (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I realise there are mandatory rest breaks for all drivers, but whereas an HFCEV can utilise wholesale pricing at terminals, an EV would need to recharge/swapover at commercial rates in between.



There would be nothing stopping a trucking company having longterm wholesale style pricing with certain charging providers, or even owning their own un-manned charging location somewhere between the capital cities.


----------



## basilio (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> I am definitely supportive of battery technologies for all vehicles and so is Elon Musk, as well for heavy transport.
> And I like the NIO battery swap idea for cars that is working well in China, but maybe it won't in Australia.  An issue for heavy vehicles will be "standardisation".
> Nikola is looking at line haul hubs for its HFCEVS, but that infrastructure will not be dedicated to Nikola.  Whereas without standardisation the LI-S and Janus Electric partnership may be confined to a niche market.




I think the business  model that Janus Electric is proposing could be quite compelling for  long distance transport fleets. They have developed the  IP to transform a current diesel truck into a fully functional electric vehicle for less than the cost of overhauling the motor.  The new vehicle can then use the plug in battery banks and service centres that Janus electrics establishes.  

An important part of the process is the easy capacity to upgrade the battery as improvements in battery technology come onto the market. 

With this business model you don't have to commit  the huge outlay for a whole new rig. When a unit needs a motor overhaul you just turn it electric and save a bundle on fuel as well as other  maintenance costs. One also doesn't have to worry about the sunk cost of batteries as new developments reduce weight and increase power.





__





						Janus Electric
					






					www.januselectric.com.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (29 March 2022)

rederob said:


> As large transport companies operate from discrete terminals the infrastructure at these sites, *and* at refilling hubs/nodes along major transport routes, would be easy and relatively cost effective to quickly put in place.



There's an example of that already with LNG.

Can't buy it from the average service station but there are certainly heavy trucks running on it. Likewise some shipping, that which runs on set routes, is also using it.

Not that I'm advocating that as the long term solution, just pointing it out as an example of a different fuel that isn't widely available being put to use.


----------



## sptrawler (29 March 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> There's an example of that already with LNG.
> 
> Can't buy it from the average service station but there are certainly heavy trucks running on it. Likewise some shipping, that which runs on set routes, is also using it.
> 
> Not that I'm advocating that as the long term solution, just pointing it out as an example of a different fuel that isn't widely available being put to use.



As you smurf and @rederob have been saying, Australia probably wont be a one size fits all, there are a lot of unique challenges in Australia.


----------



## sptrawler (30 March 2022)

Great story Sydney to Perth, In a BYD van @rederob .








						Sydney to Perth in five days in a short-range BYD T3 electric van
					

Electric T3 van owner Steve Gill attempts the drive from Sydney to Perth in just five days.




					thedriven.io


----------



## qldfrog (30 March 2022)

So hard to save the planet
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/why-a-tesla-is-so-hard-and-expensive-to-insure:


----------



## rederob (30 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Great story Sydney to Perth, In a BYD van @rederob .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I once drove Perth to Canberra in 40 hours way back in the 80s and slept for over 24 hours afterwards; learnt a big lesson about sleep deprivation!

Anyway, these many BEV stories continue to prove that if you are not in a hurry, then range anxiety is just a state of mind.
Have to admit that there being no DC charger at Albany came as a surprise.  Bit of a shame my Atto 3 is so many months away as my mum in Perth turns 99 before its due arrival, so  I will be flying over instead.


----------



## JohnDe (30 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Great story Sydney to Perth, In a BYD van @rederob .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, very interesting read, and a brave man. 

Did I read right, top speed is 100km/h? I wonder if a software update could overcome that.


----------



## moXJO (31 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Great story Sydney to Perth, In a BYD van @rederob .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder if a vandalised charge point would ruin the trip. I often see "out of order" chargers.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

moXJO said:


> I wonder if a vandalised charge point would ruin the trip. I often see "out of order" chargers.



I don't know about over East, but here in W.A it is a major issue, when there can be 200klm between charge points and there is only one charge point anyway.
It is something I have mentioned, but as obviously most on the forum E.V owning members live on the East coast, where as usual it is well serviced, it falls under the heading of 'who gives a $hit'.


----------



## JohnDe (31 March 2022)

I don't live on the east coast. 

All the chargers that I have come across usually have a minimum of two outlets. 

There are a lot of business starting to install chargers in their carparks, as an incentive for more customers to visit and stay longer.





__





						List of Successful EV Trips Round Australia
					

Tesla Owners Club of Australia




					www.teslaowners.org.au


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I don't live on the east coast.
> 
> All the chargers that I have come across usually have a minimum of two outlets.
> 
> ...



I'm sure it will improve, I live in W.A and the reason I'm buying an extended range E.V is due to the lack of infrastructure. The W.Astate government has committed to putting in more charging infrastructure, currently it is woefully inadequate and that is when there are very few E.V's on the road.
The article I posted about the guy in the BYD van actually made reference to it.
I guess I'm just under no illusion that charging when travelling in W.A will be an issue, whether I like it, or not.


Quote:
_While planning my trip for the Electrikhana in Albany I realise I still haven’t recovered from the long drive from Sydney.  I feel a bit irritated that I’m constrained by charger availability, so there’s not a lot of route options.

I estimate my charging needs to be a bit over two hours, but I just want to get to Albany as quick as I can on Friday so I can set myself up to do a good job on display.

I’ve booked Friday and Saturday nights at a caravan park to be sure I can leave Albany with a full battery (LFP batteries don’t mind getting full, I understand). * Albany, despite its relatively larger size, doesn’t have any DC chargers, so everyone will take hours to charge unless they have the range to drive another couple of hundred (almost) km to the next DC charger.*

Maybe Albany’s on the list for the next tranche of DC chargers the state govt has promised by the end of 2024_.


----------



## JohnDe (31 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I'm sure it will improve, I live in W.A and the reason I'm buying an extended range E.V is due to the lack of infrastructure. The W.Astate government has committed to putting in more charging infrastructure, currently it is woefully inadequate and that is when there are very few E.V's on the road.
> The article I posted about the guy in the BYD van actually made reference to it.
> I guess I'm just under no illusion that charging when travelling in W.A will be an issue, whether I like it, or not.
> 
> ...




Yes, I read the article that you posted. Very interesting, but remember that he purchased a delivery type van designed for urban use and as cheap as possible. It only has a 300km range, as well as not equipped for the super fast charging that the latest superchargers are capable of.

WA charging network is not too bad, especially compared to SA.








__





						Charging - Electric Vehicle Council
					






					electricvehiclecouncil.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

The point is there are no super fast chargers down there, that is what the guy mentioned, anyway as I said it is what it is.
I will manage on the Kalgoorlie road even though there is heaps of traffic, very few will be E.V's, until the infrastructure gets put in IMO.
It's very interesting with S.A, considering they are at the forefront of installing renewable generation, a bit weird really.


----------



## basilio (31 March 2022)

So has anyone on ASF seen the document which proves how electric cars, Li Ion batteries and solar cella are ruining the earth ?
Missed the story but caught up with the analysis.

A cut-and-paste attack on electric vehicle batteries and renewables is spanning the globe. But is it right?​Graham Readfearn


Unattributed extracts from an essay decrying renewables and electric vehicles are being used to undermine their environmental credentials









						A cut-and-paste attack on electric vehicle batteries and renewables is spanning the globe. But is it right? | Temperature Check
					

Despite a boost from former resources minister Matt Canavan, a well-shared text essay decrying renewables contains only partial truths




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## JohnDe (31 March 2022)

Lotus have an EV. How many know of the Lotus and Tesla connection?



> *2023 Lotus Eletre revealed: Electric SUV ushers in a new era*
> New model brings a few firsts: This is Lotus's first production four-door, and its first SUV – and it's electric.
> 
> It’s fair to say Colin Chapman would struggle to come to terms with the Lotus Eletre. ‘Simplify, and add lightness’ was the Lotus founder’s mantra.
> ...




On July 11, 2005, Tesla and British sports car maker Lotus entered an agreement about products and services based on the Lotus Elise, where Lotus provided advice on designing and developing a vehicle as well as producing partly assembled vehicles,[51] and amended in 2009,[52] helped with basic chassis development.


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Lotus have an EV. How many know of the Lotus and Tesla connection?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Chinese bought out Lotus, didn't they? Not that it means much these days, the Chinese same as the South Koreans, are making some very good gear these days.
A bit like the motorcycle I bought, Royal Enfield India, bought out Harris Racing in the U.K and developed the Interceptor 650 and I love it.
So as I say these days, it is becoming less relevant where something is made or who owns the company, there are a lot of quality manufacturers around the World.
Triumph motorcycles are really well made and manufactured in Thailand, Range Rover and Land Rover are still thought highly of, despite being owned by Tata.
Tesla sharing development with Lotus, makes sense, Tesla are miles ahead on E.V development, getting a chassis, suspension developer onboard makes perfect sense.
That is the efficiency that needs to be adapted, it no longer should be about every manufacturer re inventing the wheel, that was understandable 100 years ago and 6billion fewer people ago.
Now we have to adopt the most efficient way of using resources, be that intellectual, or physical, wastage has to be reduced dramatically on all fronts IMO.
By the way apologies for the post re starting, using the phone as a hotspot, so that I can use the laptop, but it keeps dropping out. 😩


----------



## JohnDe (31 March 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The Chinese bought out Lotus, didn't they? Not that it means much these days, the Chinese same as the South Koreans, are making some very good gear these days.
> A bit like the motorcycle I bought, Royal Enfield India, bought out Harris Racing in the U.K and developed the Interceptor 650 and I love it.
> So as I say these days, it is becoming less relevant where something is made or who owns the company, there are a lot of quality manufacturers around the World.




That would explain _"*It’s fair to say Colin Chapman would struggle to come to terms with the Lotus Eletre*. ‘Simplify, and add lightness’ was the Lotus founder’s mantra.
*The Eletre is neither simple, nor light.* Nevertheless, this electric-powered SUV is perhaps the most significant Lotus in the history of the British sports car manufacturer._


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

A Tesla /Lotus development would really be something. In 5 years time, put me down for one of their cars IMO.
Why develop a Tesla SUV, when you could put Tesla running gear, under that car you posted up @JohnDe  ? Probably the best of both worlds and imagine the savings in development and tooling costs.


----------



## SirRumpole (31 March 2022)

Trouble with Tesla self drive as chief engineer takes leave.









						Tesla Full Self-Driving tech on pause as chief engineer takes leave
					

The delay-plagued autonomous driving program is faced with a new obstacle.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (31 March 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Trouble with Tesla self drive as chief engineer takes leave.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sometimes the issue may not be about not wanting to get things happening, sometimes it is about the outside world not being in the same technological space, but if something really bad happens to someone due to autonomous driving. 
Someone goes under the bus, so to speak.


----------



## rederob (31 March 2022)

BYD presently has a 400k order book backlog that keeps growing.
Unfortunately I'm on a mobile phone for a few days and haven't mastered how to copy across to links.
The article went on to say that BYD will knock out 1.5M NEVs this year, and up to 2M if global supply chain issues are sorted out soon.
BYD will also have around 8 models in Australia by 2024, possibly including a ute, so all consumer choices will be covered.


----------



## JohnDe (1 April 2022)

rederob said:


> BYD presently has a 400k order book backlog that keeps growing.
> Unfortunately I'm on a mobile phone for a few days and haven't mastered how to copy across to links.
> The article went on to say that BYD will knock out 1.5M NEVs this year, and up to 2M if global supply chain issues are sorted out soon.
> BYD will also have around 8 models in Australia by 2024, possibly including a ute, so all consumer choices will be covered.




This article?

_“[We are] thrilled about the volume of deposits we’ve taken [on Atto 3]. We are comfortably on a pathway to being the second largest EV company with deliveries for this year,” he added, referring to Australia specifically. 

This latter claim indirectly refers to the market’s dominant player Tesla, which last year sold a tick over 12,000 Model 3s here. By contrast every single other EV maker combined sold 5149, which gives some indication of the gap which BYD hopes to squeeze into._









						BYD 'overwhelmed' by demand, plans huge EV expansion
					

Not lacking ambition, BYD's Australian importer seeks top five placing and eight EV models inside three years, including a ute.




					www.carexpert.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (1 April 2022)

It sounds like an April fool report to me. 🤣 









						Fast-charge food? McDonalds to offer EV charging at drive-thru restaurants – UPDATE
					

Do you want fries with that? Charge your car and your appetite in one convenient location.




					www.drive.com.au
				



Fast-food giant McDonalds has today revealed a plan to install electric vehicle charging stations at the majority of the 970 restaurant outlets around Australia.
The network, known simply as *McCharge*, will enable drivers to charge their electric and plug-in hybrid cars while queuing for the drive-through lane.
Available in three sizes, the *Mc Happy Charge*, *Quarter Charge* and *Big McCharge*, will each deploy 10kW, 20kW and 40kW respectively at small (7kWh), medium (22kWh) and large (50kWh) rates.

Drivers can upsize as required and also add a serving of french fries or sundae to their order.
A spokesperson for McDonalds, Hamilton Urglar, stated that "customers could mix and match menu items, and even try seasonal specials like the Double Quarter Charge and McRib."
While items on the charging menu would take longer to serve than a standard drive-through meal, each purchase includes a licenced _Minions_ puzzle to keep drivers entertained.


----------



## rederob (1 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It sounds like an April fool report to me. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Our Maccas is next door to the cop shop.  So that's where drivers go for a salt and battery.


----------



## JohnDe (1 April 2022)




----------



## qldfrog (2 April 2022)

More BYDs on the wayhttps://www.carsguide.com.au/car-ne...ectric-cars-more-affordable-chinese-rivals-to


----------



## rederob (4 April 2022)

I watched a YouTube video over the weekend where a Tesla buyer went into the Melbourne collection centre to pick up his new car.  He said he paid about $60k for it, and could drive it home and resell it for about $65k as the the waiting period for one like it is up to 10 months, and he heard that some buyers are so desperate to get one now that they even pay a premium for the privilege - maybe that's an urban myth, but it's not the first time I have heard the same thing!  In China there are EV "buyers" who tap into "in-demand" pre-orders with their paid up deposits, and then on-sell their "deposit" for up to 3 times what they paid.   
These are credible stories based on what's going on when you try to buy a Kia EV6 or Hyundai Ioniq 5.

On a different subject, battery technologies continue to push new boundaries.  Gotion recently announced that it expects to bring production of a semi-solid-state battery with an energy density of 360 Wh/kg in the near future.  That's about twice the energy density of a good LFP battery, so we can see that high end cars in future will not have any problems with "range".

It looks like NEVs are going to lead the charge in every aspect of vehicle enhancement that leads to lower comparable production and operating costs, greater safety, autonomous driving, and extended trip range.  In that regard we earlier adopters will miss out on step change improvements.  However, we will have the satisfaction of continuing to drive BEVs while waiting 6-12 months for upgraded versions to be available for collection.


----------



## JohnDe (4 April 2022)

rederob said:


> It looks like NEVs are going to lead the charge in every aspect of vehicle enhancement that leads to lower comparable production and operating costs, greater safety, autonomous driving, and extended trip range.  In that regard we earlier adopters will miss out on step change improvements.  However, we will have the satisfaction of continuing to drive BEVs while waiting 6-12 months for upgraded versions to be available for collection.




That's what Elon and co have been saying for several years.

Early adopters of technology will always miss out on hardware improvements, but if the EV manufacturers follow Tesla's lead of over the air software updates, early EV's can get a lot of the advantages that newer models have. My M3 has had about 6 free over the air updates since July 2021. Updates have included improvements for the climate control system, safety features, energy consumption improvements, regenerative braking improvements, audio system improvements, nd so on.

Tesla have offered hardware updates at reasonable costs for the first generation models, which have included the latest screen technology, chipsets for the FSD system.





__





						Tesla Software Update History and Latest Tesla Features
					

A look at Tesla software update history and the features Tesla has released.




					www.notateslaapp.com


----------



## rederob (4 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Early adopters of technology will always miss out on hardware improvements, but if the EV manufacturers follow Tesla's lead of over the air software updates, early EV's can get a lot of the advantages that newer models have. My M3 has had about 6 free over the air updates since July 2021. Updates have included improvements for the climate control system, safety features, energy consumption improvements, regenerative braking improvements, audio system improvements, nd so on.
> 
> Tesla have offered hardware updates at reasonable costs for the first generation models, which have included the latest screen technology, chipsets for the FSD system.
> 
> ...



The *step changes* I was referring to were more along the line of *new and additional*, rather than existing and *enhanced*, such as batteries,  Lidar and FLIR, and better chip sets.  In the case of production its the use of gigapresses that lower costs and increase safety of the vehicle structure.


----------



## JohnDe (5 April 2022)

rederob said:


> The *step changes* I was referring to were more along the line of *new and additional*, rather than existing and *enhanced*, such as batteries,  Lidar and FLIR, and better chip sets.  In the case of production its the use of gigapresses that lower costs and increase safety of the vehicle structure.




Yes I know. I was referring to is that new coding instructions can improve existing hardware, which can increase the efficiency and reliability of older models. Tesla has proven this.



> *Tesla’s over-the-air software updates make other vehicles ‘highly vulnerable to obsolescence’, says analyst*
> 
> “The Model S is old – what’s everyone else’s excuse? We can understand that traditional car companies have held back on EV commercialization up to this point given low consumer demand and high losses. But we have a harder time understanding how almost no car companies have brought to market a car that is capable of over the air (OTA) updates of firmware. They continue to sell vehicles that are incapable of learning and improving and are highly vulnerable to obsolescence. Car companies have had ample opportunity to tear apart Model S’s in the lab. We suspect Tesla’s vertically integrated in-house software capabilities and its willingness to assume the risk of hacking make the difference.”












						VW details major over-the-air update for ID.4 EV, promises more American software development
					

The Software 3.0 update will be made available to existing vehicles free of charge via an over-the-air (OTA) update




					www.greencarreports.com


----------



## rederob (5 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes I know, what I was referring to is that new coding instructions can improve existing hardware, which can increase the efficiency and reliability of older models. Tesla has proven this.



I am told my BYD will have OTA, but to what extent I don't know.
I found *this *link a very handy guide to OTA, SOTA and FOTA. 
As per usual, Tesla remains streets ahead.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 April 2022)

My years of working in the IT industry would make me very wary of over the air automatic software updates.
I would want a few hundred thousand other suckers to experience them and find the bugs before I would be interested.
You only have to look at the problems with  operating system updates for Microsoft or Apple over the years to see what can go wrong.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (5 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> My years of working in the IT industry would make me very wary of over the air automatic software updates.
> I would want a few hundred thousand other suckers to experience them and find the bugs before I would be interested.
> You only have to look at the problems with  operating system updates for Microsoft or Apple over the years to see what can go wrong.
> Mick




Tesla introduced OTA updating in 2012, there has been no major issues.

Computers have had internet updates since the early 2000’s.

I’ve wondered why car manufacturers did not have an easy software update since 2006 when my 2004 Ford Territory was superseded by the upgraded Territory which had better economy & power from rewriting the engine & transmission software.

Any vehicle manufacturer that does not have OTA & FOTA updates is ensuring their models obsolescence.

Having experienced OTA updates 6 or 8 times in 9 months, I will not purchase a new car that doesn’t have the capability.

Tesla has sold over 2 million models with OTA update capabilities.


----------



## Value Collector (5 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> My years of working in the IT industry would make me very wary of over the air automatic software updates.
> I would want a few hundred thousand other suckers to experience them and find the bugs before I would be interested.
> You only have to look at the problems with  operating system updates for Microsoft or Apple over the years to see what can go wrong.
> Mick



I get over the air updates regularly to my Tesla, probably on average once every one or two months or so.

The software running the car has completely changed since I first got the car in 2019.

Updates change things from minor improvements through to big changes.

Here is a photo of some of the recent changes.


----------



## rederob (5 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I get over the air updates regularly to my Tesla, probably on average once every one or two months or so.
> 
> The software running the car has completely changed since I first got the car in 2019.
> 
> ...



All these examples explain why legacy automakers are doomed unless they quickly convert to fully electric.
BYD is the most recent example going fully electric.  Aside from this point in the linked article, China has *600 *(not a typo) NEV start ups and many are offering their cars below ICE equivalents:
*“Nezha and Leapmotor perform well in the low-end market perhaps partly because their prices are low and thus avoid competition with Nio, XPeng, and Li Auto. They have launched models priced at below RMB 100,000, less costly than fuel-powered vehicles. "*​​Speaking of doomed, legacy automaker sales in America are in a sea of *red*:


----------



## mullokintyre (5 April 2022)

Tesla already has form over faulty software issues.
From 12,000 teslas recalled over software glitch 


> Nearly 12,000 Tesla vehicles sold in the US since 2017 are the subject of a safety recall because a communication error may cause a false forward-collision warning or unexpected activation of the emergency brakes, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) said on Tuesday.



There was a recall on its self driving software  from BBC


> *Tesla has withdrawn its latest "full self-driving" car software update after drivers complained of problems.*
> Some drivers reported intermittent issues such as safety alerts sounding, despite no danger being present.
> The latest version was rolled back on Sunday afternoon, less than a day after it was released.
> Tesla chief executive Elon Musk said there were "some issues" with this version, but it was "to be expected with beta software".
> A few hours earlier, Mr Musk said the launch would be delayed because the company's quality assurance team had found "regression in some left turns at traffic lights".



and even the most recent update has caused some angst among user  from Autoevolution



> Tesla's V11 software update also referred to as the 2021 Holiday Update, came with some features but also changed the user interface. The new UI is not as easy to use, owners say, and Tesla is reportedly already considering changing a few things.




Ford have had an issue with Faulty software,
From CNET


> Ford is recalling nearly 400,000 trucks over concerns that the integrated trailer braking system could malfunction due to a software error, causing it to not apply a trailer's brakes.
> 
> This recall affects 2021 and 2022 models, including the Ford Maverick, F-150, Super Duty models, Expedition and Lincoln Navigator. Because the issue is software-related, the fix is relatively simple -- your Ford dealer will apply a software update.
> 
> Ford will start notifying owners of affected models by mail on or around April 18, 2022. If you believe your vehicle is covered by this recall or you have questions, contact Ford's customer service department at 1-866-436-7332 and reference recall number 22S17.



So  faulty or less user fiendly software is not an unusual occurrence, and one that needs to be factored in.
mick


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## JohnDe (5 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Tesla already has form over faulty software issues.
> From 12,000 teslas recalled over software glitch
> 
> There was a recall on its self driving software  from BBC
> ...




That took you all day to dig up 😉

There isn’t a thing in the world that can’t be found without a fault. Though some have less than others.

Tesla have over 2 million cars in the road, there isn’t too many issues with them. OTA updates is one of the Tesla’s gold standard advantages that other manufacturers are only just coming to grips with.

Until you drive one you will never know what it is that has buyers across the world putting deposits down to own one.

I’ve never had an issue with a OTA update.


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## mullokintyre (5 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> That took you all day to dig up 😉




Unfortunately, it took me all day to get back to the computer after working in the shed.



JohnDe said:


> There isn’t a thing in the world that can’t be found without a fault. Though some have less than others.
> 
> Tesla have over 2 million cars in the road, there isn’t too many issues with them. OTA updates is one of the Tesla’s gold standard advantages that other manufacturers are only just coming to grips with.
> 
> ...



I have driven a Tesla when I was in the US about three years ago before the dreaded Covid hit.
Excellent car, and surprised me greatly.
Unfortunately, it does not match  our needs  sufficiently.
As to you not having an issue, with OTA,  that may or may not change in the future.
I merely highlighted  some instances where the software updates have had issues for others, and in my experience, will continue to have the odd software glitch, as long as humans are writing the software.
Mick


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## JohnDe (6 April 2022)

As far as I know (for Tesla models) over the air updates are not automatic, the owner decides if they want it installed and then approves the download.



> the greatest advantage of OTA updates is the ability to future-proof the car by improving it after it has been built. OTA updates now give manufacturers the potential to improve the car’s safety, usability, functionality and performance over time.






> You want the good news or the bad news about over-the-air updates? The reality is, it's exactly the same news, but viewed from contrasting old-school petrolhead or digital-first Silicon Valley perspectives. As pioneered by Tesla, and increasingly being adopted by other car manufacturers, new software is beamed to your car while it's parked, ready to offer an enhanced experience the next morning. It's often small tweaks to sat-nav mapping, or the infotainment, or the virtual owner's manual, but might also be something more significant like a revision to an electric car's energy management, giving more power, more range or quicker charging.






> Just like how IT software and operating systems receive regular updates from their vendors, vehicles receive software updates from their manufacturers. Software updates are an integral part of the overall user experience as they contain important feature enhancements and crucial security patches. Traditionally, software updates are performed in person at service centers. But as cars become increasingly connected today, OEMs are trying a new approach by sending and installing software updates over the air (the Internet) to the cars directly—the same way that smartphones and computers receive updates. Such software updates are called Over-the-Air (OTA) Car Updates.
> 
> *The Growing Importance of OTA Car Update*s
> Even without major flaws or errors, both hardware and software components need to be maintained and updated regularly during a car’s lifespan. Normally, car owners visit the service center at least once a year to get their scheduled hardware maintenance and software updates. However, as software features become increasingly sophisticated, more frequent updates are required. Having to install software updates at service centers is not only inconvenient for the owners, but also highly costly for the OEMs due to the tremendous labour needed. Additionally, many car owners neglect software updates altogether and put themselves in the danger of outdated software that is not just slow and inefficient, but also prone to cyberattacks.


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## sptrawler (6 April 2022)

A guy I know has just picked up his Ionic 5, so he now owns a Tesla model 3 and the Ionic, it will be interesting to find out what he likes and dislikes about each in a few months time.


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## Value Collector (6 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Unfortunately, it took me all day to get back to the computer after working in the shed.
> 
> 
> I have driven a Tesla when I was in the US about three years ago before the dreaded Covid hit.
> ...



Can’t software have issues regardless of over the air updates?

Your car could roll out the factory with the latest software and have glitch installed, at least with over the air updates they can send you a patch without having to take the car back into the dealership.

I think when it comes to software faults, over the air updates will fix more problems than they cause, because any problem can be quickly patched but without it the problems will hang around for months or years.


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## Value Collector (6 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> As far as I know (for Tesla models) over the air updates are not automatic, the owner decides if they want it installed and then approves the download.



Yep, a notification normally pops up on my phone and says there is an update available, then I open the Tesla app and click install now.


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## qldfrog (7 April 2022)

Byd seems to confirming EV ute for Australia in 2023
https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/byd-plans-aggressive-model-expansion-australia
And maybe an assembly plant here from that older article
https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/byd-electric-ute-built-in-australia
For real life here, that is the only EV i can consider.and a tesla truck at 100k is not an option


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## sptrawler (7 April 2022)

GM and Honda to join forces, to produce a range of affordable E.V's and at last they are starting to get serious about standardising parts.



			https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/motoring/motoring-news/gm-and-honda-join-forces-to-build-evs/news-story/f780396fc46172d8cb4ea13d089d6323
		

From the article:
Their aim is to keep prices to about $US30,000 ($39,900). Currently the cheapest EV on sale in Australia is the Chinese MG ZS EV priced at $46,990 drive-away.

GM says it’s focused on compact SUVs as it is the biggest market in the world with more than 13 million sales annually.
The two companies will work to create standardised equipment and processes to help reduce the cost of production and development.

Most new electric cars are built on modular platforms that allow for a wide range of body shapes to be built on the same architecture


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## JohnDe (7 April 2022)




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## SirRumpole (8 April 2022)

rederob said:


> I watched a YouTube video over the weekend where a Tesla buyer went into the Melbourne collection centre to pick up his new car.  He said he paid about $60k for it, and could drive it home and resell it for about $65k as the the waiting period for one like it is up to 10 months, and he heard that some buyers are so desperate to get one now that they even pay a premium for the privilege - maybe that's an urban myth, but it's not the first time I have heard the same thing!  In China there are EV "buyers" who tap into "in-demand" pre-orders with their paid up deposits, and then on-sell their "deposit" for up to 3 times what they paid.
> These are credible stories based on what's going on when you try to buy a Kia EV6 or Hyundai Ioniq 5.
> 
> On a different subject, battery technologies continue to push new boundaries.  Gotion recently announced that it expects to bring production of a semi-solid-state battery with an energy density of 360 Wh/kg in the near future.  That's about twice the energy density of a good LFP battery, so we can see that high end cars in future will not have any problems with "range".
> ...




A good opportunity to start an EV futures market !


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## JohnDe (8 April 2022)

Looks like a continuing problem with diesel engines -
Japanese car giant Toyota could be forced to pay $2 billion in compensation to Australian customers after a Federal Court today ruled in favour of a class action over faulty diesel particulate filters on more than 250,000 HiLux, Prado, and Fortuner models.​
DPF's were always a temporary fix for a long term problem. VW knew this, that's why the added the 'cheat' program to the vehicles PCM. How many more manufacturers will be affected? Will there come a time when manufacturers and governments will start taking Diesel models off the road?

This added cost is going to eat into the R&D budget.

We could see manufactures downsizing or closing in the near future.


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## Value Collector (8 April 2022)

This is a great comparison of the other brands charging networks vs Teslas, and shows why Tesla still has the major advantage in the space,

The good info starts at the 2.30 mark (after their ads at the start)


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## JohnDe (8 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> This is a great comparison of the other brands charging networks vs Teslas, and shows why Tesla still has the major advantage in the space,
> 
> The good info starts at the 2.30 mark (after their ads at the start)






Wow, I know from personal experience that Tesla charging is amazing, but I did not realise how far behind the other EV manufacturers are.


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## qldfrog (8 April 2022)

https://www.drive.com.au/news/porsche-invests-100-million-into-synthetic-fuel-venture/
Green gas..no need to change car, can use locally produced solar peak etc etc..ohhh but that mean the peons could still fly drive their ice cars..movers moped and carry on with life   no way, we want the Reset and obviously sell cars at twice the price...leave the populace in public transport


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## mullokintyre (9 April 2022)

The end of ICE engined cars in OZ will not come from Government  policy, it will be imposed by the manufacturers.
BYD has stopped producing ICE cars, others will quickly follow suit.

Mick


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## mullokintyre (9 April 2022)

The above statement looks great until you read that they will still be producing PHEV's, which have an ICE engine.
But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Mick


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## sptrawler (9 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The end of ICE engined cars in OZ will not come from Government  policy, it will be imposed by the manufacturers.
> BYD has stopped producing ICE cars, others will quickly follow suit.
> 
> Mick







mullokintyre said:


> The above statement looks great until you read that they will still be producing PHEV's, which have an ICE engine.
> But hey, don't let the afcts get in the way of a good story.
> Mick



The problem will be the ICE engine will be a drag on manufacturers bottom line, that is why most are stopping development and sharing engines, they will still have to supply parts for 10 years after production stops.
If they keep pouring money into the ICE component, the E.V manufacturers advantage just continually increases, because they have more profit available to support R&D and expansion.
The ICE manufacturers that continue production and development, will be hoping that the slide eventually bottoms out at a level that still gives them a reasonable profit. 
The problem with that is, the ICE engine has been developed to a very high degree of efficiency already, so any improvements are going to be costly, secondly public sentiment world wide is against them and thirdly the E.V architecture is shared with the computer industries.

The industrial sector, the manufacturing sector and the technological advancements in their electronic control systems, is easily adapted to the E.V drive system and the control ECU, so a lot of the software and hardware will be adapted to the E.V speed and AI collision avoidance and self driving software. 
Yet all the development cost of the microprocessors and software wont be at the E.V manufacturers expense, whether the speed control software/hardware and equipment is driving an E.V or some drive motor in a factory process the underlying technology is similar.

I personally can't see how ICE vehicles wont eventually become a cottage industry, IMO they will probably bottom out when hydrogen is readily available at a reasonable price, then some will convert their classic ICE engines to run on H2 injection.
Just my thoughts.


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## Value Collector (9 April 2022)

This is the 20 min highlights of Teslas latest event / opening of the Tesla Giga factory in Texas, Its the latest factory building in the world and the "most advanced car factory earth has ever seen.

I love the part at the 11.50 min mark where he compares it to their original factory in California (which is still producing at max speed), and says the new Texas factory was designed like computer chip.


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## qldfrog (9 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The problem will be the ICE engine will be a drag on manufacturers bottom line, that is why most are stopping development and sharing engines, they will still have to supply parts for 10 years after production stops.
> If they keep pouring money into the ICE component, the E.V manufacturers advantage just continually increases, because they have more profit available to support R&D and expansion.
> The ICE manufacturers that continue production and development, will be hoping that the slide eventually bottoms out at a level that still gives them a reasonable profit.
> The problem with that is, the ICE engine has been developed to a very high degree of efficiency already, so any improvements are going to be costly, secondly public sentiment world wide is against them and thirdly the E.V architecture is shared with the computer industries.
> ...





sptrawler said:


> secondly public sentiment world wide is against them



A somewhat narrow view of the world :
1 billion at most in economies which we could call under destruction


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## sptrawler (9 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> A somewhat narrow view of the world :
> 1 billion at most in economies which we could call under destruction



That could be very true frog, but right or wrong,  the major manufacturers and the first world governments have embraced it so at this point in our history this is the path it is going.
I personally think the change at any cost is a foolhardy and wasteful approach, but I'm also aware that I can't change it and at my age I will be wasting life and opportunity if i don't ride the wave, I also live in a country that is going overboard chasing the dream.
If it all falls on its ar$e in 20 years time and they say we need to change direction, I'll be knocking the door of 90 so wont give a $hit. 🤣
The other thing is, if in 5 years something else comes out, that supersedes this E.V, the son who is off grid can have it to run into town and back from his block and I'll buy the new technology car.


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## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

Does anyone have any data  they can link to how much we save in carbon emissions into the atmosphere by increasing  EV usage  within the expected timeframes of phasing out and replacing fossil fuel powered electricity production with renewables?

Seems in the excitement the cart is getting in front of the horse.


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## Value Collector (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Does anyone have any data  they can link to how much we save in carbon emissions into the atmosphere by increasing  EV usage  within the expected timeframes of phasing out and replacing fossil fuel powered electricity production with renewables?
> 
> Seems in the excitement the cart is getting in front of the horse.



This video is has some good comparison’s, and the links to the science studies are in the description.


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## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> This video is has some good comparison’s, and the links to the science studies are in the description.





Thanks will check it out, can you summarise it?


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## Value Collector (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Thanks will check it out, can you summarise it?



Basically Electric cars are much better for the environment than petrol ones, and as the electric grid continues getting cleaner the electric cars will continue getting better and better.

Electric cars also have many other benefits, even if climate change wasn’t an issue they still help by making the air cleaner in our cities, produce jobs in the Australian energy sector, increase our energy independence and save you time by not having to waste time standing at the petrol bowser every week.

I know you might feel like the cart is being put before the horse, but that is probably because you haven’t been paying attention to the slow steady progress over the last 15 years or so.


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## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Basically Electric cars are much better for the environment than petrol ones, and as the electric grid continues getting cleaner the electric cars will continue getting better and better.
> 
> Electric cars also have many other benefits, even if climate change wasn’t an issue they still help by making the air cleaner in our cities, produce jobs in the Australian energy sector, increase our energy independence and save you time by not having to waste time standing at the petrol bowser every week.
> 
> I know you might feel like the cart is being put before the horse, but that is probably because you haven’t been paying attention to the slow steady progress over the last 15 years or so.



Watched it, thanks. It was very simplistic.

My question was really about data on the specific Australian context and our timeline to phase out and replace fossil fuel powered electricity supplies, the proposed energy mix and the impacts on the economy versus gains to the environment.


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## sptrawler (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Watched it, thanks. It was very simplistic.
> 
> My question was really about data on the specific Australian context and our timeline to phase out and replace fossil fuel powered electricity supplies, the proposed energy mix and the impacts on the economy versus gains to the environment.



Australia has committed to achieving zero carbon by 2050 as have most western countries, whether that can be achieved is still unknown, but for now in the early stages is where the major savings will be, when the low hanging fruit is picked that's when the real hard questions have to be answered.
But it's a given coal generation will close, what replaces that successfully is yet to be seen. Removing as much fossil fueled transport off the road is a given, what the end transport mix looks like is yet to be seen, decarbonising industry where possible will happen, if it increases costs that will have to be absorbed and passed on.
What it costs actually wont matter, if people can't afford it, they will live with out it, or make themselves afford it, if it is an absolute necessity for society to function the Government will subsidise it.
Same stuff, different day.


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## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Australia has committed to achieving zero carbon by 2050 as have most western countries, whether that can be achieved is still unknown, but for now in the early stages is where the major savings will be, when the low hanging fruit is picked that's when the real hard questions have to be answered.
> But it's a given coal generation will close, what replaces that successfully is yet to be seen. Removing as much fossil fueled transport off the road is a given, what the end transport mix looks like is yet to be seen, decarbonising industry where possible will happen, if it increases costs that will have to be absorbed and passed on.
> What it costs actually wont matter, if people can't afford it, they will live with out it, or make themselves afford it, if it is an absolute necessity for society to function the Government will subsidise it.
> Same stuff, different day.




With that many technology unknowns and uncosted policy black spots the goal of a better, cleaner environment sounds more like a platitude than a plan.


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## mullokintyre (9 April 2022)

Japan , like us here in OZ, drives on the Left hand side of the road, and of course the cars are considered RHD.
One of the policies Japan  has is that cars are are required to have more rigorous inspections the older they get, so that  it is often cheaper and less hassle to trade in a 5 year old car on a new one.
So these "older cars" are moved on to other countries, part of the so called "grey market".
I myself took advantage of the grey market when working in Tanzannia, and got a 5 year old  Suzuki Vitara that had done barely 30,000 miles.
Japan  has around 82million cars on the register,  and despite an aging population, this number has increased every year since 2012, as there are more single person households now.  The average age of vehiclkes in Japan is under 10 years,  so every year, on average around 8 million vehicles are traded out to the second hand market.( source Statista ).
Australia has not been such a big market for these  vehicles, but there are some imported every year.
Since 2011, the Japanese EV market has grown every year so that there are now around 12,000 EV's on the road, a fairly small proportion of all vehicles.
If the same sort of rigorous  testing regimes are applied to EV's, we should start to see second EV's appear in this grey market soon. This may be one of the ways that more EV vehicles find their way into our market. 
The other markets for the grey cars , Africa, 
  and some south east asian countries, are unlikey to have the charging infrastructure to warrant shipping them there.
So we may be a more likely destination.
Mick


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## qldfrog (9 April 2022)

https://www.rechargenews.com/energy...hought-before-uk-government-study/2-1-1200115
So h2 cells dream might soon turn into a nightmare...
Obviously, centralised h2 production and syn fuel would not have that issue so badly.and plenty of cheap iron to build more ice engines for the 80pc of the world which can not even have reliable power for lighting or elevators


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## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> https://www.rechargenews.com/energy...hought-before-uk-government-study/2-1-1200115
> So h2 cells dream might soon turn into a nightmare...
> Obviously, centralised h2 production and syn fuel would not have that issue so badly.and plenty of cheap iron to build more ice engines for the 80pc of the world which can not even have reliable power for lighting or elevators



Lol that headline cracked me up, it is so representative of how so many in the green movement think ie; the idea sounded so much better before someone did an actual study.....


I worked in a lab that worked on the hydrogen storage problem for example in a car, think like a petrol fuel tank except for hydrogen. The research started decades before I arrived and went for decades after with no practical solution. Haven't followed up in a long time, could be solved by now.

Classic.
​"Hydrogen 'twice as powerful a greenhouse gas as thought before': UK government study"​


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## Value Collector (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Watched it, thanks. It was very simplistic.
> 
> My question was really about data on the specific Australian context and our timeline to phase out and replace fossil fuel powered electricity supplies, the proposed energy mix and the impacts on the economy versus gains to the environment.




It is a simplistic video, but as I said all the sources are linked in the description if you want to read the science.

All the info you seek about the Australian context is available if you just spend a few minutes googling it.


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## Value Collector (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> With that many technology unknowns and uncosted policy black spots the goal of a better, cleaner environment sounds more like a platitude than a plan.



At the moment coal stations are closing earlier than they were originally scheduled to just because of the economics, the coal stations are struggling to compete in the market against renewables.

I guess it sounds like a platitude plan because you have admitted you haven’t actually looked very deeply into the topic, and instead are asking to to be spoon fed the information from a bunch of people on an EV thread.

I think you actually just have pre conceived political issues with the move to greener fuels that you wish to air, rather than a genuine interest in the facts, other wise your genuine interest would have lead you to look up the answers rather than make broad statements based on opinion.


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## Smurf1976 (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Does anyone have any data they can link to how much we save in carbon emissions into the atmosphere by increasing EV usage within the expected timeframes of phasing out and replacing fossil fuel powered electricity production with renewables?



A very difficult question for anyone to precisely answer.

Eg what time will the cars be charged?

Mass consumer behaviour in that regard is thus far an unknown. Engineers certainly have an "ideal" answer there but what happens in practice probably will differ.

Then there's the question of what portion of the emissions from war does one attribute to the oil and gas industry?

It certainly wouldn't be zero on any objective measure, the only question is how much exactly? Wherever there's things being blown up, oil and gas are all too often either the direct target or the source of funding.

What I can say though is that if someone were to charge a Tesla Model 3 in Adelaide using electricity generated at Barker Inlet power station, and with the power station operating on diesel (it's dual fuel gas / diesel), and with 6% network losses then that's 2.7 litres per 100km based on the Model 3's claimed electricity consumption.

That beats most comparable ICE cars. Noting that I picked Barker Inlet as the generation source primarily because the technical details of the power station have been publicly disclosed.

Of course if they charged it at midday on a day when wind and solar was being curtailed then the fossil fuel used is zero. Hence the issue of when it's charged.

There's no single answer to the question so anyone giving an answer necessarily is making some assumptions which may or may not hold true in any given situation.

Generation from the absolute worst power station in the NEM, which I won't name for reasons of confidentiality, would give the Model 3 an equivalent fuel consumption of about 6.5 litres / 100km. That facility would rarely be the actual marginal source of electricity when someone's charging their EV. Could happen but generally won't be the case.

Emissions from manufacturing and maintaining them is similarly complex.


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## qldfrog (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Lol that headline cracked me up, it is so representative of how so many in the green movement think ie; the idea sounded so much better before someone did an actual study.....
> 
> 
> I worked in a lab that worked on the hydrogen storage problem for example in a car, think like a petrol fuel tank except for hydrogen. The research started decades before I arrived and went for decades after with no practical solution. Haven't followed up in a long time, could be solved by now.
> ...



Years ago, when H2 first popped up as a potential saviour, i argue strongly that it was impossible to contain and so would leak everywhere so the idea of H2 as car fuel was silly...each car leaking then the whole transport chain etc..that was even not counting it as a CC culprit.
So use ammonia, syn fuel but not compressed H2
Not that any one cared or wanted to spoil a feel good story.
I do not expect decision maker to read the Frog posts and trust them, but maybe have some proper non biaised scientists and experts giving out the facts, same for covid, CC, etc if they are too uneducated to follow even basic sciences.
I think we should take a lesson from this, the covid scam or even Ukraine fiasco.
We in so called democracies are managed by tools and clowns who are only answering lobbies and polls.
Make your own decisions based on these assumptions before any rationality or logic.


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## JohnDe (9 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The above statement looks great until you read that they will still be producing PHEV's, which have an ICE engine.
> But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
> Mick




As mentioned about 3000 post’s ago, ICE development will stop as R&D dollars are reallocated to EV development. Any hybrid EVs that are produced will use existing engine technology, and slowly fade into the sunset.


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## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> A very difficult question for anyone to precisely answer.
> 
> Eg what time will the cars be charged?
> 
> ...




Also factor in the cost of mining the rarer metals used in EV  batteries and electronic systems and you have major environmental damage/disaster + effectively modern slavery including children in the most horrific conditions.

TBH I would like to hear more discussion on city and public transport design to make personal cars redundant and possibly banned in high density urban centres.

I lived for a decade in big cities and never owned a car. A car is an unnecessary PITA in modern high density cities.


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## Value Collector (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Also factor in the cost of mining the rarer metals used in EV  batteries and electronic systems and you have major environmental damage/disaster + effectively modern slavery including children in the most horrific conditions.



This stuff has been thought about and assessed by many people over the last decade, and EV’s still come out on top.

You need to mine materials for all cars, battery material do not create significantly more “damage”, and when you factor in that these materials will be recycled and perhaps in circulation for multiple uses over decades then the damage is much smaller than the continuous mining and drilling for oil.


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## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> This stuff has been thought about and assessed by many people over the last decade, and EV’s still come out on top.
> 
> You need to mine materials for all cars, battery material do not create significantly more “damage”, and when you factor in that these materials will be recycled and perhaps in circulation for multiple uses over decades then the damage is much smaller than the continuous mining and drilling for oil.





Thought about and assessed by who, the people selling EV's??


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## rederob (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Lol that headline cracked me up, it is so representative of how so many in the green movement think ie; the idea sounded so much better before someone did an actual study.....
> I worked in a lab that worked on the hydrogen storage problem for example in a car, think like a petrol fuel tank except for hydrogen. The research started decades before I arrived and went for decades after with no practical solution. Haven't followed up in a long time, could be solved by now.



If you knew anything about climate you would know that CO2 with a GWP of 1, irrespective of time period, is somewhat more of a problem than a potential doubling of hydrogen's GWP in a hundred years time, as hydrogen is almost imperceptible in our atmosphere which contains just *0.00005%,  *compared to* CO2's 0.04%*. 
By all means mitigate any leakage wherever possible, but for that leakage to be a problem to climate we are going to have to wait tens of thousands of years.  What the report did not cover, however, was the potential for the planet to "absorb" hydrogen naturally - into the soil mostly - just as most additional CO2 over the past century has been absorbed into our oceans.


----------



## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

rederob said:


> If you knew anything about climate you would know that CO2 with a GWP of 1, irrespective of time period, is somewhat more of a problem than a potential doubling of hydrogen's GWP in a hundred years time, as hydrogen is almost imperceptible in our atmosphere which contains just *0.00005%,  *compared to* CO2's 0.04%*.
> By all means mitigate any leakage wherever possible, but for that leakage to be a problem to climate we are going to have to wait tens of thousands of years.  What the report did not cover, however, was the potential for the planet to "absorb" hydrogen naturally - into the soil mostly - just as most additional CO2 over the past century has been absorbed into our oceans.



Nice way to start a reply "if you knew anything..." settle down.

How are you producing your hydrogen by using high carbon emission natural gas or carbon monoxide producing methods? 

Both sound stellar for the environment.


----------



## Value Collector (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Thought about and assessed by who, the people selling EV's??



No, independent research groups, as I said take a look through the linked sources to that video I shared earlier.


----------



## rederob (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> With that many technology unknowns and uncosted policy black spots the goal of a better, cleaner environment sounds more like a platitude than a plan.



That's like knowing a nuclear accident would be a problem but we shouldn't worry until we know if it's going to be a Windscale, 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl or Fukushima-type incident.  In other words we can go about solving or mitigating impacts without needing to know their precise scale.


3 hound said:


> Also factor in the cost of mining the rarer metals used in EV batteries and electronic systems and you have major environmental damage/disaster + effectively modern slavery including children in the most horrific conditions.



This is what so many critics say, yet they willing have probably bought many clothing items which have come from sweat shops and nations employing underage children.  And how many engagement rings contain blood diamonds?  Your point is a diversion as the capacity of individuals, through their own labour, to produce the necessary quantities for industry is almost zero. 


3 hound said:


> TBH I would like to hear more discussion on city and public transport design to make personal cars redundant and possibly banned in high density urban centres.



Read through this thread.
EVs are championing fully autonomous driving which includes taxi services.  *FYI *Cruise and Waymo already have permits to operate commercial autonomous taxi services in and around San Francisco.  *China *has had driverless taxis for longer, and apart from industry leader Baidu, companies including  DeepRoute, Pony.ai, and AutoX have also begun trials of their own robotic taxi rides.


----------



## Value Collector (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Nice way to start a reply "if you knew anything..." settle down.
> 
> How are you producing your hydrogen by using high carbon emission natural gas or carbon monoxide producing methods?
> 
> Both sound stellar for the environment.



Hydrogen can be produced using green energy sources.

Seriously mate, it’s like you are working off information and arguments that are 10 years old, and have completely been ignoring everything that’s been happening in this space recently.


----------



## rederob (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Nice way to start a reply "if you knew anything..." settle down.
> 
> How are you producing your hydrogen by using high carbon emission natural gas or carbon monoxide producing methods?
> 
> Both sound stellar for the environment.



Again, *if you knew anything*  then you would know where the future lies and where massive investments in hydrogen are being made, and started by doing some basic research to inform yourself.
So stop shooting yourself in the foot.


----------



## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Again, *if you knew anything*  then you would know where the future lies and where massive investments in hydrogen are being made, and started by doing some basic research to inform yourself.
> So stop shooting yourself in the foot.



No doubt there are big investments being made, so far a lot of the investments are scams like solar roadways. I thought this was about improving environmental outcomes.


----------



## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

rederob said:


> This is what so many critics say, yet they willing have probably bought many clothing items which have come from sweat shops and nations employing underage children. And how many engagement rings contain blood diamonds? Your point is a diversion as the capacity of individuals, through their own labour, to produce the necessary quantities for industry is almost zero.





No the point is still valid and it's irrelevant that the same point applies to diamonds and apple phones etc.

You have made a logical fallacy.

Sorry I didn't really get the other points you were making.


----------



## rederob (9 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Hydrogen can be produced using green energy sources.
> 
> Seriously mate, it’s like you are working off information and arguments that are 10 years old.



@Value Collector - you might be too generous.
I was posting on this stuff before ASF was around, and telling people about Tesla's Roadster shortly after it was produced in 2008.
The environmental arguments against NEVs are mostly weak and often baseless.  
A few days ago a very wealthy Pom with a YouTube channel showcasing his ICE vehicles uploaded a video canning the benefits of EVs of supposed detailed research.  It was an absolute croc that a 10 year old could debunk.  He replied a few times to my comments with absolutely nothing substantial.  However he posted lots of laughing emojis to my claim that EVs were typically safer than ICEVs and had that warmth of peeing in a wetsuit as only he knew!  So I posted a link to a car insurers website that said that EV claims were 40% less than for ICEVs when harmonised for distance.
Bottom line is the wealth of information available if people keep an open mind and are not sucked in by regurgitated nonsense from the ICE age,


----------



## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Again, *if you knew anything* then you would know where the future lies




If you knew anything you would know that if you knew where the future lies you would be a god or something similar, getting a bit above yourself.


----------



## Smurf1976 (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I lived for a decade in big cities and never owned a car. A car is an unnecessary PITA in modern high density cities



Taking a neutral position ideologically and politically, it could similarly be argued that cities themselves are the ultimate problem.

Regardless of that argument though, bottom line is the world has a huge existing base of cities, towns and so on and the car isn't going away anytime soon so the question becomes how to power them.



3 hound said:


> effectively modern slavery including children in the most horrific conditions.




No denying that but the same could be said for ICE vehicles. There's an awful lot of misery around the world that in one way or another is brought about by oil.

The real solution I'd argue is that we simply shouldn't be buying anything produced in an unacceptable manner. We could obtain the minerals to produce batteries and so on from sources that don't involve sending kids down the mines if we really wanted to. Might cost a bit more, might mean we have to accept some pollution or whatever in our own backyard but it could be done. Just because a present source is problematic doesn't preclude changing the source.


----------



## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Hydrogen can be produced using green energy sources.





True but largely pointless statement when you look at the scale of production required then the green concept gets way less obvious if it is even possible.


----------



## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Taking a neutral position ideologically and politically, it could similarly be argued that cities themselves are the ultimate problem.




The ultimate problem is the question that is not allowed to be even thought ie; how many humans can the planet sustain.


----------



## Value Collector (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> True but largely pointless statement when you look at the scale of production required then the green concept gets way less obvious if it is even possible.



Take a few moments to look at the scale of investment and speed that Fortescue metals is moving in that direction


----------



## rederob (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> No doubt there are big investments being made, so far a lot of the investments are scams like solar roadways. I thought this was about improving environmental outcomes.



Now you are making even less sense.  There are no solar roadways in existence, so don't confuse a concept being trialed with the real thing.
Again, go through this thread and the environmental benefits have been many times repeated.


3 hound said:


> No the point is still valid and it's irrelevant that the same point applies to diamonds and apple phones etc.
> You have made a logical fallacy.



FYI, repeating a similar point with different emphasis cannot be a logical fallacy.  It's a fact of life in this world that not every country has strong labour laws, as @Smurf1976 points out.  


3 hound said:


> Sorry I didn't really get the other points you were making.



I can understand that.


3 hound said:


> If you knew anything you would know that if you knew where the future lies you would be a god or something similar, getting a bit above yourself.



I contexted my comment in relation to *hydrogen* so stop trying to be a smartarse.  This thread has over 290 pages and within them you will find a lot about what is happening on the hydrogen front. 
I guess you have missed headlines like this:
Andrew Forrest begins work on green hydrogen hub in Gladstone, confirms $3b for renewables farm​And this:
Twiggy signs deal with Airbus to back hydrogen planes​As far as people like Twiggy are concerned, the future lies in a hydrogen economy and he's investing billions into it.  You don't have to agree, but being ignorant to it won't prevent it.


----------



## 3 hound (9 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Take a few moments to look at the scale of investment and speed that Fortescue metals is moving in that direction




A link or something would be helpful. I won't be replying any further tonight tho. Thanks for discussion.


----------



## sptrawler (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> The ultimate problem is the question that is not allowed to be even thought ie; how many humans can the planet sustain.



That has been brought up many times.
The other problem that brings up and has been mentioned is, the amount of greenhouse gas produced by the extra humans, is proportional to their affluence.
That is as humans become more affluent they consume more energy, because they buy more electronic junk, so the extra demand on the electrical supply increases.
Funnily enough the ones who scream the most about climate change are the elites, who consume the most power in their McMansions, with their cinema rooms and their Range Rovers.
We are a weird lot aren't we. 🤣
Thankfully Elon Musk has now given the elites a "clean" car, with the snob value, to replace the Range Rover, that's a big step in he right direction.


----------



## rederob (9 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> A link or something would be helpful. I won't be replying any further tonight tho. Thanks for discussion.



*Two links were immediately above your post!*
You laziness is exemplary.


----------



## 3 hound (10 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Now you are making even less sense. There are no solar roadways in existence, so don't confuse a concept being trialed with the real thing.




Mayor Pete, in the US is spruking them as we speak.

Do you not remember the hype around solar roadways Wattways??

It's the typical false green scam that gets promoted to the public as an environmental benefit.

Engineers and construction companies love green investment because all the money they make but the more data comes in we learn how scammy much of it is and at the public expense.

The World bank has even published papers on the negative environmental impacts of so called green investment.


----------



## 3 hound (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That has been brought up many times.
> The other problem that brings up and has been mentioned is, the amount of greenhouse gas produced by the extra humans, is proportional to their affluence.
> That is as humans become more affluent they consume more energy, because they buy more electronic junk, so the extra demand on the electrical supply increases.
> Funnily enough the ones who scream the most about climate change are the elites, who consume the most power in their McMansions, with their cinema rooms and their Range Rovers.
> ...




You forget to mention how the green elites can't seem to travel in anything but their own private jets.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> At the moment coal stations are closing earlier than they were originally scheduled to just because of the economics, the coal stations are struggling to compete in the market against renewables.



That is a true statement, but it doesn't actually give a fair representation of the actual issue.
The coal stations are struggling to compete with renewables, because they have to run inefficiently or be taken off line to allow renewables to provide power when they are generating, when the renewables aren't generating because there is no sun and no wind, the coal generators have to re start and provide the power required to keep the lights on.
So to say carte blanche that they struggle to compete, doesn't honestly reflect the situation, it is cherry picking that renewables are cheaper when they are running, but they aren't always running which goes back to at call generation and storage.


----------



## rederob (10 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Mayor Pete, in the US is spruking them as we speak.
> 
> Do you not remember the hype around solar roadways Wattways??
> 
> ...



We had a premier that spruiked cars that ran on water!
You are digging up such crap it beggars belief.
Green investments are driving first world economies more strongly than most other investment sectors, and most of it is privately funded.  
If you want to be credible, link to sources.
When I went outside today the sky was falling.  I even took a photo.
I suggest you get back on topic and start asking questions that make sense.


----------



## Value Collector (10 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> A link or something would be helpful. I won't be replying any further tonight tho. Thanks for discussion.



There is no one link to explain the whole thing, but here is one link.

Basically FMG is moving rapidly towards becoming a global hydrogen and green energy producers.

But this thread is about ev’s, I just charge mine at home using my solar panels on the roof of my house, pretty simple.

https://www.fmgl.com.au/docs/default-source/announcements/2361891.pdf?sfvrsn=d18eb613_4


----------



## 3 hound (10 April 2022)

rederob said:


> We had a premier that spruiked cars that ran on water!
> You are digging up such crap it beggars belief.
> Green investments are driving first world economies more strongly than most other investment sectors, and most of it is privately funded.
> If you want to be credible, link to sources.
> ...



What crap are you talking about, you arrogance is only eclipsed by your ignorance. 

Have a great evening and goodnight.


----------



## Value Collector (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is a true statement, but it doesn't actually give a fair representation of the actual issue.
> The coal stations are struggling to compete with renewables, because they have to run inefficiently or be taken off line to allow renewables to provide power when they are generating, when the renewables aren't generating because there is no sun and no wind, the coal generators have to re start and provide the power required to keep the lights on.
> So to say carte blanche that they struggle to compete, doesn't honestly reflect the situation, it is cherry picking that renewables are cheaper when they are running, but they aren't always running which goes back to at call generation and storage.



I was under the impression that it isn’t coal plants having to switch on and off that’s the problem, because they aren’t really doing that, it’s the suppression of the actual whole sale price, by solar and wind, at least that’s how AGL was explaining it.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I was under the impression that it isn’t coal plants having to switch on and off that’s the problem, because they aren’t really doing that, it’s the suppression of the actual whole sale price, by solar and wind, at least that’s how AGL was explaining it.



Well I will let @Smurf1976 explain it.
But I will say if it is cheaper and more efficient to run the renewables, why have the coal generators at all, I'm sure they don't want to operate them.


----------



## rederob (10 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> What crap are you talking about, you arrogance is only eclipsed by your ignorance.



Really?
Perhaps show an example rather than spruik off-topic nonsense.


----------



## Value Collector (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well I will let @Smurf1976 explain it, because you will probably argue with me.



No arguments from me, I am interested to learn about how it works, maybe the explanations I have read so far have been off by we simplified.

But the way I though it worked was that the power from the base load generators like coal power stations was mostly pre sold though daily auctions, and the coal plants will continue to generate their presold power regardless, and it’s the Peaker plants like the gas turbines and some hydro that switch on and off to meet the exact unexpected fluctuations above the base load.

How ever, the coal plants rely on selling their electricity at higher price levels for a certain number of hours per day, and this peak earning time is getting squeezed as solar and wind producers have edged in, eg at certain times mid day is almost unprofitable based on the whole sale price, where as 10 years ago that was a decent earning time for coal plants.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2022)

So if that is the case why bring forward the closing of one of the biggest base load stations by 7 years?
I'll defer to your logic and obvious knowledge.
By the way peak earning times is morning and evening peaks, not mid day always has been.


----------



## Value Collector (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So if that is the case why bring forward the closing of one of the biggest base load stations by 7 years?
> I'll defer to your logic and obvious knowledge.



Because it’s becoming unprofitable to keep running it, because there is not enough hours each week when the wholesale price of power is high enough for it to make a decent return, shutting it down takes enough supply out of the market to raise the price for a while, until the supply of renewables keeps expanding again.

Basically in those auctions that determine the prices they will be able to sell their power for, there is enough capacity available from all the other coal plants + wind, solar, hydro etc to push the whole sale price down for most of the day/week.

The big wind and solar generators can look at the weather predictions and have a decent idea of the minimum level of power they will produce and put in offers to supply firm supply against the coal plants, and if the weather report is wrong it’s not a big deal for them because they just have a hedging/insurance contract with a peaker natural gas plant to provide back up for the odd occasion their weather prediction is way off, also some of them now have batteries too.

Eg, a coal plant can have trouble competing against a group that owns three wind farms, two solar plants a battery and had decent meteorologist and hedger/trader, sure some days the coal plants will make decent money, but for enough hours a day their prices will be squeezed but the renewables who’s running costs are rock bottom.


----------



## qldfrog (10 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> What crap are you talking about, you arrogance is only eclipsed by your ignorance.
> 
> Have a great evening and goodnight.



Funny thing is I am missing who the ignorant is due to him/her/it being on my "ignore" list: the game for me is to guess who it is: i reached a short list of 2 or 3 so far😂
Do not worry 3 hound, facts or sciences will never bother them...
Learn the forum "ignore" function


----------



## mullokintyre (10 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> As mentioned about 3000 post’s ago, ICE development will stop as R&D dollars are reallocated to EV development. Any hybrid EVs that are produced will use existing engine technology, and slowly fade into the sunset.



ICE development will stop when the developers can't make a buck out of it.
Governments think they drive policy, but in the end it is the ones who make the dollars that drive it.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (10 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> ICE development will stop when the developers can't make a buck out of it.
> Governments think they drive policy, but in the end it is the ones who make the dollars that drive it.
> Mick






> Hyundai Motor Group is accelerating its EV plans, and has closed its engine development department at the end of 2021.
> 
> Park Chung-kook, recently appointed as the automaker’s research and development chief, sent an email to employees explaining the change: “Now, it is inevitable to convert into electrification.
> 
> “Our own engine development is a great achievement, but we must change the system to create future innovation based on the great asset from the past.”












						Hyundai has closed its engine development division - report
					

It seems there will be no all-new replacements for the petrol and diesel engines used in today's Hyundai, Kia and Genesis vehicles.




					www.carexpert.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (10 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Hyundai has closed its engine development division - report
> 
> 
> It seems there will be no all-new replacements for the petrol and diesel engines used in today's Hyundai, Kia and Genesis vehicles.
> ...



Obviously they can't make a good buck (or in this case Kwon) out of engine development.
Like so much on this forum, the headline does not always reflect the story.


> It’s understood *a small group of engineers will continue to work with internal combustion engines*, but they will be responsible for updating existing designs rather than developing new petrol and diesel mills.



So, no they are not completely stopping R and D, just  only working on existing engines.
That of course does not preclude them from continuing to make ICE engines, but that will stop when they can no longer make the kwon out of it.
Mick


----------



## 3 hound (10 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Hyundai has closed its engine development division - report
> 
> 
> It seems there will be no all-new replacements for the petrol and diesel engines used in today's Hyundai, Kia and Genesis vehicles.
> ...





ICE or any other engine  can't develop further than the sweet sound of a V8. That's perfection right there.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Because it’s becoming unprofitable to keep running it, because there is not enough hours each week when the wholesale price of power is high enough for it to make a decent return, shutting it down takes enough supply out of the market to raise the price for a while, until the supply of renewables keeps expanding again.
> 
> Basically in those auctions that determine the prices they will be able to sell their power for, there is enough capacity available from all the other coal plants + wind, solar, hydro etc to push the whole sale price down for most of the day/week.
> 
> ...



I have had no experience in the operation of the East Coast electrical supply and distribution system, so I wont comment on it as it would be based on assumptions.
I can only comment on the W.A grid system which I have been involved in the operation of, the issue the coal fired steam units are having here is, renewables are given precedence in dispatch as they should be due to the cost and emission advantage, the issue for the coal coal units is they are much less efficient at low loadings that at MCR. 
Secondly with the requirement to take units off, to allow the renewables 'room' to supply the load ( generation has to equal demand), causes a lot of thermal stressing to the boiler and turbines which ultimately leads to premature wear and failure.
Thirdly when taking a coal fired unit off and on, there is a huge amount of wasted fuel in obtaining correct steam conditions to actually feed the turbine, before it can be run to speed and synchronised onto the system, this pressure and temperature raising fuel is in effect wasted. Taking a unit on and off, depending on the time the unit has been off for can be up to 12 hours of firing.

In comparison a HE GT can be started synchronised and at full load in about 20 minutes, so there are other larger issues than the market when it comes to dispatching coal plant.


----------



## 3 hound (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I have had no experience in the operation of the East Coast electrical supply and distribution system, so I wont comment on it as it would be based on assumptions.
> I can only comment on the W.A grid system which I have been involved in the operation of, the issue the coal fired steam units are having here is, renewables are given precedence in dispatch as they should be due to the cost and emission advantage, the issue for the coal coal units is they are much less efficient at low loadings that at MCR.
> Secondly with the requirement to take units off, to allow the renewables 'room' to supply the load ( generation has to equal demand), causes a lot of thermal stressing to the boiler and turbines which ultimately leads to premature wear and failure.
> Thirdly when taking a coal fired unit off and on, there is a huge amount of wasted fuel in obtaining correct steam conditions to actually feed the turbine, before it can be run to speed and synchronised onto the system, this pressure and temperature raising fuel is in effect wasted. Taking a unit on and off, depending on the time the unit has been off for can be up to 12 hours of firing.
> ...





Why does this sound like widespread power outages in our near future.


----------



## JohnDe (10 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Obviously they can't make a good buck (or in this case Kwon) out of engine development.
> Like so much on this forum, the headline does not always reflect the story.
> 
> So, no they are not completely stopping R and D, just  only working on existing engines.
> ...






> Audi stops development of new combustion engines
> 
> VW subsidiary Audi has abandoned the development of new combustion engines.
> 
> “We will no longer develop a new combustion engine, but will adapt our existing combustion engines to new emission rules,” CEO Markus Duesmann told Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung in response to EU plans for stricter Euro 7 standards, which he called “technically a huge challenge with little benefit for the environment.”




Nissan will stop developing internal combustion engines — except for the US market, where the demand for gasoline-powered engines is insatiable, particularly for large SUVs and pickup trucks.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2022)

Polestar is getting popular.








						Polestar 2 orders paused amid strong demand
					

You can no longer order a custom-built Polestar 2 electric sedan – though pre-built cars are available in the meantime, and factory orders are expected to




					www.drive.com.au
				



"Due to high demand, we have sold out of current cars in Europe and Australia. As a result, we will close the Configurator for new configured orders in these markets for the time being. We are working to take in new configured car orders and enable the Configurator as soon as we can," a statement from Polestar Australia reads.
In the meantime, buyers in Australia can order one of the "pre-configured" cars already in stock. Polestar told _Drive_ last month as many as 349 pre-configured cars would be available to buy – though as of publishing, the company's website only lists five vehicles available to order immediately.
The cessation of new orders in Australia comes as the Swedish-Chinese brand signs a deal with rental car giant Hertz, which will see it supply 65,000 Polestar 2 sedans over the next five years – with the first joining the Australian fleet in late 2022.


----------



## JohnDe (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Polestar is getting popular.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, 349 vehicles up for grabs in an Australian market of millions of potential buyers would make it popular.

I think this just emphasises the supply problem all the EV manufacturers have (except Tesla).



> buyers in Australia can order one of the "pre-configured" cars already in stock. Polestar told _Drive_ last month as many as 349 pre-configured cars would be available to buy – though as of publishing, the company's website only lists five vehicles available to order immediately.


----------



## Value Collector (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I have had no experience in the operation of the East Coast electrical supply and distribution system, so I wont comment on it as it would be based on assumptions.
> I can only comment on the W.A grid system which I have been involved in the operation of, the issue the coal fired steam units are having here is, renewables are given precedence in dispatch as they should be due to the cost and emission advantage, the issue for the coal coal units is they are much less efficient at low loadings that at MCR.
> Secondly with the requirement to take units off, to allow the renewables 'room' to supply the load ( generation has to equal demand), causes a lot of thermal stressing to the boiler and turbines which ultimately leads to premature wear and failure.
> Thirdly when taking a coal fired unit off and on, there is a huge amount of wasted fuel in obtaining correct steam conditions to actually feed the turbine, before it can be run to speed and synchronised onto the system, this pressure and temperature raising fuel is in effect wasted. Taking a unit on and off, depending on the time the unit has been off for can be up to 12 hours of firing.
> ...




Here is just one article talking about the situation for the QLD coal power stations
_*
QCC examined the whole of the two company’s businesses, including their retail electricity businesses, but found that the emergence of competing clean energy projects and falling wholesale electricity prices would diminish their profitability within just a few years*_.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/queensl...r-again-be-profitable-new-analysis-finds/amp/


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Here is just one article talking about the situation for the QLD coal power stations
> 
> _*QCC examined the whole of the two company’s businesses, including their retail electricity businesses, but found that the emergence of competing clean energy projects and falling wholesale electricity prices would diminish their profitability within just a few years*_.
> https://reneweconomy.com.au/queensl...r-again-be-profitable-new-analysis-finds/amp/



Yes we have been discussing the coal generation problems for several years in the General Chat forum, in the 'Future of electrical generation and storage thread'. The issue is a bit off topic here, but the issue isn't going away and the coal generators want to close as early as allowable. That is the main issue, they are required and they don't want to run.
The price they get paid will change, if they are required to ensure the lights stay on, the price will be paid, rather than have rolling blackouts.
It's a bit like rolling up to a servo in the middle of nowhere with an empty tank and saying I'm not prepared to pay that price for the fuel, the guy would say fine, what would you like for dinner and would you like to book a room. 🤣

From your post, as I was alluding to, coal fired steam plant isn't suitable for the mode of operation it now has to perform :








						Queensland’s state owned coal plants may never again be profitable, new analysis finds
					

QCC report says many state owned government coal generators may never regain profitability in the face of increased competition from renewables.




					reneweconomy.com.au
				



“Queensland’s coal generators will also require more maintenance. AEMO expect Stanwell to have to invest more than $1bn in routine refurbishments of Stanwell and Tarong power stations between 2025 – 2030. The Callide C4 incident demonstrated the vulnerability of coal to catastrophic and expensive failure.”

This next article does explain the issue a bit, but since it was written OCGT efficiencies have improved enormously, they are now reaching 45% efficiencies, where the coal steam plant get around 36% thermal efficiency, but we don't have enough capacity to shut the coal down.
AsI said we are heading off topic and really probably should move the issue to 'the future of electrical generation and storage thread' IMO








						COLUMN-To survive, coal power plants must become more flexible: Kemp
					

Integrating an increasing supply of wind, solar and other variable sources of power onto the grid will require conventional plants to become more flexible. The question is whether coal-fired generators are up to the challenge.




					www.reuters.com
				




FLEXIBLE GAS VERSUS COAL​The obvious choice is to rely on open-cycle gas turbines (OCGT) to back up variable resources. Resembling the jet engines employed on aircraft, OCGTs are already used to provide fast-response emergency power supplies at times of peak demand.

Because these turbines do not have to heat large volumes of water to raise steam, they can ramp up quickly. OCGTs can ramp up to maximum output in just 10-15 minutes, compared with the four to eight hours that it takes a large coal power plant to reach full output even from a warm start.

But OCGTs are also inefficient and expensive. Peaking plants that use OCGT technology charge very high prices to supply extra power for 100 hours a year or less. They also generate lots of greenhouse emissions.

So the power industry is searching for ways to make the rest of the conventional generation portfolio more flexible too. Coal producers and generators are understandably keen to talk up the ability of coal-fired units to step into the gap.

Until recently, the debate largely ignored coal. Coal is neither as clean as nuclear nor as flexible as OCGT. The assumption was that nuclear would run as baseload and gas would provide flexible response. But the power industry has begun to take another look at how coal can be run more flexibly in future.

HIGHER OPERATING COSTS​The operational and financial challenges of operating conventional plants in a more flexible mode are enormous.

Large-scale power plants take hours to warm up to operating temperature and synchronise their turbines with the grid.

“(Grid operators) may have to cycle resources on and off more than once a day,” the North American Electric Reliability Corporation explained in a recent report on integrated renewables in California.

“At times this may not be an option because the down time between shutdown and start-up of a resource may be too long, which would prevent the resource from being restarted in time for system peak,” NERC concluded.


----------



## mullokintyre (10 April 2022)

I "orderd" one of the Polestar preconfigured vehicles about 3 weeks ago by putting down 1000 bucks.
Got a polestar ID, buts thats about all.
I suspect that when the company has got orders for all the vehicles, it will have an idea of what the public wants in terms of "extras".
I suspect that these 349 cars are not even built yet, but they will configure them to order and ship them out in one hit.
I was really only interested in range, not any of the fancy extras.
Be interesting to see if I actually get one of the pre  configured cars.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (10 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I "orderd" one of the Polestar preconfigured vehicles about 3 weeks ago by putting down 1000 bucks.
> Got a polestar ID, buts thats about all.
> I suspect that when the company has got orders for all the vehicles, it will have an idea of what the public wants in terms of "extras".
> I suspect that these 349 cars are not even built yet, but they will configure them to order and ship them out in one hit.
> ...




Have you and your wife modified your list of requirements?

As I recall some of your requirements were 
AWD. 
300+ range, 
service centre nearby and 
price.

From the Polster site I can only see an option for FWD (Front Wheel Drive) at $83,000 for the long range. I'm guessing that the AWD would be close to six figures, when and if available for Australia.

Has the dealer given you different information to what is on the web site?





__





						Preconfigured cars
					

Passion and emotion drive us, electricity and innovation drive our cars. We are all in, guiding our industry forward through pure, progressive, performance.




					www.polestar.com
				





#5,556


----------



## Value Collector (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes we have been discussing the coal generation problems for several years in the General Chat forum, in the 'Future of electrical generation and storage thread'. The issue is a bit off topic here, but the issue isn't going away and the coal generators want to close as early as allowable. That is the main issue, they are required and they don't want to run.
> The price they get paid will change, if they are required to ensure the lights stay on, the price will be paid, rather than have rolling blackouts.
> It's a bit like rolling up to a servo in the middle of nowhere with an empty tank and saying I'm not prepared to pay that price for the fuel, the guy would say fine, what would you like for dinner and would you like to book a room. 🤣
> 
> ...



Yep, as an APA Group shareholder, I have been thinking about the role gas will play in the transition, and whether APA’s has Infrastructure will be profitable long enough for them to complete their move to renewables without having a major drop in revenues. (I have noticed since the Liddell coal plant closed it first unit the other day gas usage on the east coast grid has risen)

So far I am feeling pretty confident that they we be a beneficiary of the coal plants demise, at least for the next 20 years, past that it is a question of how much of the industrial, commercial and residential gas usage moves to electricity and maybe to what extent (if any) the exisiting gas pipelines can play a part in any hydrogen economy that develops.

As I said though APA are making investments into renewables and electricity transmission, so that side of the business will be fertile ground for a long time, we just need to see the gas business decline at a rate slow enough that it can produce net cash flows for a long time.


----------



## mullokintyre (10 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Have you and your wife modified your list of requirements?
> 
> As I recall some of your requirements were
> AWD.
> ...



There is nothing available, or on the Horizon that will fit all the criteria (at least not an EV).
The specs are a long range version (540km), single motor, no AWD, and is big enough to fit two kids seats in the back.
Its also a little higher off the ground than a lot of its competitors.
I have not even been able to test drive the Polestar.
There is no guarantee that I will have the order fulfilled, or that I will actually take delivery.

Mick


----------



## qldfrog (10 April 2022)

Interesting article i read this morning about EV vs ICE on the MG cost wise
With current (high ) price for petrol and based on city driving..most EV favorable, you break even against ICE in 16y..obviously not counting return on extra money for 16y or considering the state of your battery in 16y.
Do money wise with the EV, not there yet.
I would like to redo the computation based on free power: having retired, i could keep an EV loaded on free PV power at home around lunchtime.
If i find the article back , i will do the computation.


----------



## qldfrog (10 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Interesting article i read this morning about EV vs ICE on the MG cost wise
> With current (high ) price for petrol and based on city driving..most EV favorable, you break even against ICE in 16y..obviously not counting return on extra money for 16y or considering the state of your battery in 16y.
> Do money wise with the EV, not there yet.
> I would like to redo the computation based on free power: having retired, i could keep an EV loaded on free PV power at home around lunchtime.
> If i find the article back , i will do the computation.



The link https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-ne...-off-2022-mg-zs-ev-vs-zs-petrol-running-costs


----------



## qldfrog (10 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> The link https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-ne...-off-2022-mg-zs-ev-vs-zs-petrol-running-costs



With free power, you get around 1900$ a year extra run cost for the ICE vs EV or 10y+ before recovering the extra EVcost.
So still not worthwhile $ wise even with petrol above $2 a litre


----------



## 3 hound (10 April 2022)

Geez 16 years puts a damper on things. I was starting to warm to the idea until then.

Also a lot of people point out the rising fuel costs and act like electricity costs haven't risen dramatically in the last few years.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2022)

You have to remember guys, no one is making you buy an E.V, same as no one is making you buy a mobile phone or anything else it's called choice.lol


----------



## 3 hound (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> You have to remember guys, no one is making you buy an E.V, same as no one is making you buy a mobile phone or anything else it's called choice.lol



Choices can be manipulated thru jacking up rego & fuel taxes until you no longer have a choice.

.


----------



## JohnDe (10 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Geez 16 years puts a damper on things. I was starting to warm to the idea until then.
> 
> Also a lot of people point out the rising fuel costs and act like electricity costs haven't risen dramatically in the last few years.




You’re a little late to this one. Check out post #5577



JohnDe said:


> After driving 1700+km through two states starting Friday morning and getting home Monday night, I just added up the cost and came up with $131.51 And I wasn't driving with economy in mind.





JohnDe said:


> View attachment 139322
> 
> 
> Evie charge
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (10 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Choices can be manipulated thru jacking up rego & fuel taxes until you no longer have a choice.
> 
> .




A fuel tax was just dropped last week, it still cost me $100 to fill up my tank, while my partner charges the EV battery for half that.


----------



## Iron Triangle (10 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> u break even against ICE in 16y..obviously not counting return on extra money for 16y or considering the state of your battery in 16y.
> Do money wise with the EV, not there yet.






qldfrog said:


> So still not worthwhile $ wise even with petrol above $2 a litre




Not true. Telsa have a higher resale value compared to a petrol equivelent car. I base that on selling every 2-3 years. You save a lot more on maitenance costs with EV  i.e no major services i.e oil , filters , timing belts , ect  vs electric. You also save huge amount on buying petrol vs electricity for km covered plus discount regoes in some states.  I think charging at some places is also free atm.


----------



## sptrawler (10 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Choices can be manipulated thru jacking up rego & fuel taxes until you no longer have a choice.
> 
> .



Even thats a choice, you can dig in and fight it, but whether that changes the outcome is debatable, but I agree it will be forced on people.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well I will let @Smurf1976 explain it.
> But I will say if it is cheaper and more efficient to run the renewables, why have the coal generators at all, I'm sure they don't want to operate them.



To avoid taking this thread off the EV subject I've posted a detailed comment with charts and actual real operational detail from today (Sunday) here:





__





						The future of energy generation and storage
					

For reference, list of coal plant in the NEM (in order of age within states):  Qld:  Gladstone - 1680 MW owned primarily by a joint venture of Rio Tinto and NRG Energy and 10% by an assortment of other minor owners. Commissioned 1976.  Tarong - 1400 MW owned by Stanwell Corporation. Commissioned...




					www.aussiestockforums.com
				




In the context of charging an EV though, the short answer is that if you live in Vic or SA and you charged it during the roughly 8am - 2pm period today then the marginal source of generation, the one that ran versus not ran based on changing consumption, was indeed renewable. 

That doesn't mean all fossil fuel plant was off, for reasons I've explained in that post, but if someone plugged in an EV and charged it then they added nothing to fuel combustion at all, they simply used some wind and solar that went to waste.

On the other hand, if they charged it later then depending on exactly what time that was the marginal source was some combination of coal, gas and hydro.

So the emissions which result from charging an EV is very much an "it depends" thing but broadly speaking if your aim is to reduce the quantity of fuel burned then charging at off-peak times beats charging at peak times. I've put the info in the other thread though since this one's about EV's not how to burn coal.


----------



## Value Collector (11 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Geez 16 years puts a damper on things. I was starting to warm to the idea until then.
> 
> Also a lot of people point out the rising fuel costs and act like electricity costs haven't risen dramatically in the last few years.



I charge mine at home using my solar power, my cost of power I generate using my solar is about 2 cents per KWH locked in for the life of my solar system, with no increases ever.

So that means when I charge using my solar system it’s equal to buying petrol for about 3cents a litre, but hey I have some oil wells in my investment portfolio feel free to keep handing those $50’s and $100’s over at the petrol station, it will keep my dividends flowing and the tax coffers full.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I charge mine at home using my solar power, my cost of power I generate using my solar is about 2 cents per KWH locked in for the life of my solar system, with no increases ever.
> 
> So that means when I charge using my solar system it’s equal to buying petrol for about 3cents a litre, but hey I have some oil wells in my investment portfolio feel free to keep handing those $50’s and $100’s over at the petrol station, it will keep my dividends flowing and the tax coffers full.



The thing is, if someone wants to spend $100k on a very good diesel 4X4 that is fine and they will probably get a lot of enjoyment out of it. I'm sure you have a completely different lifestyle and holidays than they do, who gets the most enjoyment out of their choices, is very subjective.
There isn't a one size fits all with this IMO, your Tesla probably couldn't do the holidays an outback tourer wants to do and you probably don't want to do basic outback touring.
So common ground is difficult.


----------



## Value Collector (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The thing is, if someone wants to spend $100k on a very good diesel 4X4 that is fine and they will probably get a lot of enjoyment out of it. I'm sure you have a completely different lifestyle and holidays than they do, who gets the most enjoyment out of their choices, is very subjective.
> There isn't a one size fits all with this IMO, your Tesla probably couldn't do the holidays an outback tourer wants to do and you probably don't want to do basic outback touring.
> So common ground is difficult.



Yep, and all that is fine, I was responding to him being worried about electricity price increases vs petrol price increase, as I said I actually have oil wells in my portfolio, so I don’t mind a bit if people choose to drive petrol or diesel cars.

But, I don’t think that is the situation of this 3 hound guy his opinion isn’t based on the facts, I think he just hates electric cars for political reasons or because he has read some bogus stuff about them, not because technology wouldn’t actually suit him.

So I was just pointing out that it’s fine for him to be a hater, it doesn’t actually change any of the facts, and it doesn’t hurt us, it only hurts himself if he wants go through life clinging to old tech.


----------



## qldfrog (11 April 2022)

Iron Triangle said:


> Not true. Telsa have a higher resale value compared to a petrol equivelent car. I base that on selling every 2-3 years. You save a lot more on maitenance costs with EV  i.e no major services i.e oil , filters , timing belts , ect  vs electric. You also save huge amount on buying petrol vs electricity for km covered plus discount regoes in some states.  I think charging at some places is also free atm.



Iron, not true?
I like arguments like that.....
What about you actually take a calculator? I actually..true ...did that.
So the 10y before breakeven is including cheaper service (130 dollar a year),and 0 dollar costs for charging and the most expensive fuel cost ever seen..hard to be more favorable to EV
As for money on resale, my 12y old 4wd ute doubles value in the last year, what about your Tesla?
I do not want to include that or inflation...
Buying an EV in 2022 still does not make sense economically for the average user
It is not a subject of "discussion", just facts.
After ,for taxis, specific trucks usage, or just for freedom, fun, religion or planned forced buy via regulations, sure.
EV remains the beemer of the green brigade.
Looking forward when this changes..but remember in 2022, millions still use iphones with cracked screens instead of 30 to 50% cheaper chinese android phones..so yes branding and look/statute is enough to build a market above facts


----------



## qldfrog (11 April 2022)

I am a fan of syn fuel at least, right now as transition while we get batteries which can be made for all needed ICE replacement
For the sake of objectivity:




__





						E-fuels won’t save the internal combustion engine - International Council on Clean Transportation
					

E-fuels are a prohibitively expensive and remarkably inefficient way to decarbonize the transportation sector.




					theicct.org
				



I find it very biased as it conveniently forgets the loss of storage of  the initial power, then used to recharge EV..(minimum 20%) so basically only valid when you charge at midday or on nukes
Then conveniently forgets the waste of throwing away perfectly good ice with huge embedded energy to replace them by newly built atrociously expensive in embedded energy EVs.lithium mining...
Anyway need to be objective so


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Polestar is getting popular.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Polestar *did not see this coming:
*“But we’re a launch market here in Australia, and it’s really important that we do have volumes secured for our launch. We are working very hard with our production and logistics team to minimise any risks of supply being short of what we expect,” she said.*​*“At this stage, we don’t see any supply issues. Everything is on track for the volumes we’re planning,” said Polestar Australia managing director, Samantha Johnson.*​​Polestars are not particularly cheap, so it goes to show there is a segment of our car market that has no need for incentives.  Instead, they are icing on a cake that you might be lucky enough to be offered a slice.

Speaking of incentives, the *ACT *has one which I reckon federal Labor could use given their so called blue collar base:
*"In the ACT we've put those [incentive] mechanisms in place; that $15,000 interest free loan [via the sustainable household scheme] includes second-hand electric vehicles, as does the free rego for two years," the ACT Minister for Climate Change and Sustainability, Mr Rattenbury said.*​Instead Labor has *these**, *the latter of which favours employers more than workers.


----------



## 3 hound (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Labor could use given their so called blue collar base:




Geez I haven't considered labour as a party for the working class since at least the 90's. The last election labour was almost decimated by the working class.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> *Polestar *did not see this coming:
> *“But we’re a launch market here in Australia, and it’s really important that we do have volumes secured for our launch. We are working very hard with our production and logistics team to minimise any risks of supply being short of what we expect,” she said.*​*“At this stage, we don’t see any supply issues. Everything is on track for the volumes we’re planning,” said Polestar Australia managing director, Samantha Johnson.*​​Polestars are not particularly cheap, so it goes to show there is a segment of our car market that has no need for incentives.  Instead, they are icing on a cake that you might be lucky enough to be offered a slice.
> 
> Speaking of incentives, the *ACT *has one which I reckon federal Labor could use given their so called blue collar base:
> *"In the ACT we've put those [incentive] mechanisms in place; that $15,000 interest free loan [via the sustainable household scheme] includes second-hand electric vehicles, as does the free rego for two years," the ACT Minister for Climate Change and Sustainability, Mr Rattenbury said.*​Instead Labor has *these**, *the latter of which favours employers more than workers.



Thus far for people in regional and rural Australia EV's are unrealistic due to high mileage needs and lack of charging. The prices quoted are out of peoples reach. 

Prius seems to be the best and cheapest way for anyone to go, a hybrid with low fuel needs and an engine which continually recharges the battery, the latter being used most of the time to run the motor. 

gg


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Iron, not true?
> I like arguments like that.....
> What about you actually take a calculator? I actually..true ...did that.
> So the 10y before breakeven is including cheaper service (130 dollar a year),and 0 dollar costs for charging and the most expensive fuel cost ever seen..hard to be more favorable to EV



The maths has been done many times in this thread and EVs keep coming out on top.  For example:
Buying an EV will still save thousands, even if petrol is free​


qldfrog said:


> As for money on resale, my 12y old 4wd ute doubles value in the last year, what about your Tesla?
> I do not want to include that or inflation...



I am not sure doubling a few hundred dollars is a big deal!


qldfrog said:


> Buying an EV in 2022 still does not make sense economically for the average user
> It is not a subject of "discussion", just facts.



Then present your facts.
You make claims on a regular basis which are your opinions only and are not at all supported by hard data.


qldfrog said:


> EV remains the beemer of the green brigade.



Oh yeah.  The AU$8k BEVs available are just like beemers!  What nonsense.  Wuling's Mini is second only to Tesla in EV sales.


qldfrog said:


> Looking forward when this changes..but remember in 2022, millions still use iphones with cracked screens instead of 30 to 50% cheaper chinese android phones..so yes branding and look/statute is enough to build a market above facts



Yet @sptrawler, @mullokintyre and I are buying brands that are barely known to be available as EVs, if known at all.  Not a single friend had heard of an Atto 3 until I said I was buying one.

Your bandwagon broke down long ago and you continue to spout baseless ideas.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thus far for people in regional and rural Australia EV's are unrealistic due to high mileage needs and lack of charging. The prices quoted are out of peoples reach.
> 
> Prius seems to be the best and cheapest way for anyone to go, a hybrid with low fuel needs and an engine which continually recharges the battery, the latter being used most of the time to run the motor.
> 
> gg



With the hybrids GG, the new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which is due here soon seems to tick a lot of boxes. When I was researching hybrids, it seemed like there are two ways to go plug in and non plug in, with the non plug in they have a small battery, which basically gets the car off the mark and then the ICE engine takes over which saves a bit on fuel the advantage is they don't cost a lot more than the pure ICE vehicle.
The plug in hybrids are able to be charged at home and because the battery isn't huge as in a pure E.V, the battery doesn't take a long time to charge. What I didn't like about them was I thought the battery in most of them was just that little bit too small to justify the extra cost over the equivalent ICE car. Most of them had around 10-13Kw batteries which could travel about 40klm give or take in pure E.V mode, the new Outlander is getting a 20Kw battery, that should get around 70klm in E.V mode which is more usable and could still easily be charged overnight from a normal outlet.
Then the issue became cost, the pricing for the new Outlander PHEV hasn't been announced, but comparing it to the superseded model  I would think it will be in the region of $65k, which is the price of a long range E.V so it all becomes complicated IMO.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> With the hybrids GG, the new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which is due here soon seems to tick a lot of boxes. When I was researching hybrids, it seemed like there are two ways to go plug in and non plug in, with the non plug in they have a small battery, which basically gets the car off the mark and then the ICE engine takes over which saves a bit on fuel the advantage is they don't cost a lot more than the pure ICE vehicle.
> The plug in hybrids are able to be charged at home and because the battery isn't huge as in a pure E.V, the battery doesn't take a long time to charge. What I didn't like about them was I thought the battery in most of them was just that little bit too small to justify the extra cost over the equivalent ICE car. Most of them had around 10-13Kw batteries which could travel about 40klm give or take in pure E.V mode, the new Outlander is getting a 20Kw battery, that should get around 70klm in E.V mode which is more usable and could still easily be charged overnight from a normal outlet.
> Then the issue became cost, the pricing for the new Outlander PHEV hasn't been announced, but comparing it to the superseded model  I would think it will be in the region of $65k, which is the price of a long range E.V so it all becomes complicated IMO.



Thanks @sptrawler 

When you think about it, cost is a major limiting factor atm, and it is not a small cost. 

gg


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thus far for people in regional and rural Australia EV's are unrealistic due to high mileage needs and lack of charging. The prices quoted are out of peoples reach.
> 
> Prius seems to be the best and cheapest way for anyone to go, a hybrid with low fuel needs and an engine which continually recharges the battery, the latter being used most of the time to run the motor.
> 
> gg



There are several Chinese BEVs with over 1000km range already, but not available here yet.  Last week I watched a review on a PHEV with 1300km range, which is a fair bit more than a Prius has to offer.

Battery technology is improving all the time, so I reckon the 400km range for BEVs which is a common offering will notch up to 600km by 2025.  And most EV makers are offering "extended range" variants that can usually push this number up by 100 to 200km.  It did cost me $3k to add an extra 100km, but I am sure that will come down significantly for LFP batteries as technology and km/kWh ratios improve.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> There are several Chinese BEVs with over 1000km range already, but not available here yet.  Last week I watched a review on a PHEV with 1300km range, which is a fair bit more than a Prius has to offer.
> 
> Battery technology is improving all the time, so I reckon the 400km range for BEVs which is a common offering will notch up to 600km by 2025.  And most EV makers are offering "extended range" variants that can usually push this number up by 100 to 200km.  It did cost me $3k to add an extra 100km, but I am sure that will come down significantly for LFP batteries as technology and km/kWh ratios improve.



Good to know.

gg


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> There are several Chinese BEVs with over 1000km range already, but not available here yet.  Last week I watched a review on a PHEV with 1300km range, which is a fair bit more than a Prius has to offer.
> 
> Battery technology is improving all the time, so I reckon the 400km range for BEVs which is a common offering will notch up to 600km by 2025.  And most EV makers are offering "extended range" variants that can usually push this number up by 100 to 200km.  It did cost me $3k to add an extra 100km, but I am sure that will come down significantly for LFP batteries as technology and km/kWh ratios improve.






> *NIO continues to tout the 1,000 km (621 miles) cruising range of the ET7, garnered from its 150 kWh battery pack. However, when we configure our own model through NIO’s WeChat, only the 100 kWh battery is available, offering 675 km (419 miles) range. Both ranges are impressive, although they are not EPA certified.*












						NIO rolls first batch of ET7 sedans off assembly line ahead of deliveries next week
					

NIO announced the first batch of ET7 sedans has rolled off its assembly line in Hefei, ahead of deliveries in China beginning March 28.




					electrek.co


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (11 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> To avoid taking this thread off the EV subject I've posted a detailed comment with charts and actual real operational detail from today (Sunday) here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks @Smurf1976 

Very well presented content. 

gg


----------



## mullokintyre (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> NIO rolls first batch of ET7 sedans off assembly line ahead of deliveries next week
> 
> 
> NIO announced the first batch of ET7 sedans has rolled off its assembly line in Hefei, ahead of deliveries in China beginning March 28.
> ...



Like the look of the ES8, but unfortunately none of the NIO brands are slated to arrive in OZ until sometime in 2025 according to  drive.com.au
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> With the hybrids GG, the new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which is due here soon seems to tick a lot of boxes. When I was researching hybrids, it seemed like there are two ways to go plug in and non plug in, with the non plug in they have a small battery, which basically gets the car off the mark and then the ICE engine takes over which saves a bit on fuel the advantage is they don't cost a lot more than the pure ICE vehicle.
> The plug in hybrids are able to be charged at home and because the battery isn't huge as in a pure E.V, the battery doesn't take a long time to charge. What I didn't like about them was I thought the battery in most of them was just that little bit too small to justify the extra cost over the equivalent ICE car. Most of them had around 10-13Kw batteries which could travel about 40klm give or take in pure E.V mode, the new Outlander is getting a 20Kw battery, that should get around 70klm in E.V mode which is more usable and could still easily be charged overnight from a normal outlet.
> Then the issue became cost, the pricing for the new Outlander PHEV hasn't been announced, but comparing it to the superseded model  I would think it will be in the region of $65k, which is the price of a long range E.V so it all becomes complicated IMO.



In term of practical use, a 70km range would be perfect, fully charge on own power and proper range, no anxiety cf stuck in countryside..and obviously benefitting from braking downhill in our hilly country.obviously cost is key.and still unable to do what i need in a car aka 4wd ute, but as second car


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> NIO rolls first batch of ET7 sedans off assembly line ahead of deliveries next week
> 
> 
> NIO announced the first batch of ET7 sedans has rolled off its assembly line in Hefei, ahead of deliveries in China beginning March 28.
> ...





Real world outcome and still charge left to get to over *1000km*!
Then there's the GAC AION LX Plus which is supposed to do the same, but I cannot find a real world test.
This is still  2021 battery tech in those cars, so just imagine the advances in coming years.


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> View attachment 140292
> 
> Real world outcome and still charge left to get to over *1000km*!
> Then there's the GAC AION LX Plus which is supposed to do the same, but I cannot find a real world test.
> This is still  2021 battery tech in those cars, so just imagine the advances in coming years.




Impressive, though I don't understand how a 150 kWh battery at 16% equals only 42km range. The drivers charging experience is a sad example of what many will experience, unless they have a Tesla


----------



## Value Collector (11 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Geez I haven't considered labour as a party for the working class since at least the 90's. The last election labour was almost decimated by the working class.



Most of the “working class” believe they are “middle class”, and in the last election Labor attacked the middle class, so they got smacked.

Labor forgot that if you try to initiate a class war, you have to make sure the people that you need to support you understand exactly which class they are in.

But the current state of Australia is that the upper working class believe they are middle class, while the actual middle class is focused on trying to become upper middle, and the upper middle are focused on trying to join the capitalist class.

Mean while the rest of the working class is kept in place by  Alcohol, cigarettes and consumer debt, 

The Alcohol and cigarettes keep the working class working longer, paying more taxes and shortens their years they are a burden to the pension system.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Mean while the rest of the working class is kept in place by  Alcohol, cigarettes and consumer debt,



Not petrol?


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Impressive, though I don't understand how a 150 kWh battery at 16% equals only 42km range.



As I understand it the screen shows that because it does not want the battery to run to zero.
I thought Tesla's - and all other - lithium ternary batteries lasted longer if kept in the 10 - 80% range rather than be fully charged or discharged?

I am a huge Tesla fan, but the BYD I have preordered will do everything I want and is a fair bit cheaper (not to mention will arrive sooner than any Tesla ordered!).  As I will mostly charge at home I won't need anything like Tesla's excellent charging network to backstop me.  

Over the weekend I read an article about Australia's low EV take up rate.  What we all know now is that it has everything to do with not being able to get your hands on one, unless you want the substandard MG.  Labor, if they get into power, need to get our house in order so that we are no longer shunned by so many manufacturers, and finally get some real and  decent choice of models and price ranges.


----------



## Value Collector (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> As I understand it the screen shows that because it does not want the battery to run to zero.
> I thought Tesla's - and all other - lithium ternary batteries lasted longer if kept in the 10 - 80% range rather than be fully charged or discharged?
> 
> I am a huge Tesla fan, but the BYD I have preordered will do everything I want and is a fair bit cheaper (not to mention will arrive sooner than any Tesla ordered!).  As I will mostly charge at home I won't need anything like Tesla's excellent charging network to backstop me.
> ...



It depends which Tesla battery you have in your car, if it’s the standard range Chinese made battery, it’s lithium Iron, so with that one you can run it 0% to 100% no problem all the time without extra degradation.

But if you have the Tesla battery with nickel instead of Iron, it’s best to not let your car sit above 90% or below 10% for to long.

There is no problem with charging up to 100%, right before you drive it, or running down to below 10% right before you charge it, it’s letting it sit at those high or low state of chargers that’s the problem.


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Over the weekend I read an article about Australia's low EV take up rate.  What we all know now is that it has everything to do with not being able to get your hands on one, unless you want the substandard MG.  Labor, if they get into power, need to get our house in order so that we are no longer shunned by so many manufacturers, and finally get some real and  decent choice of models and price ranges.




That old 'give us favourable incentive and discounts and we'll send more to your country' line.

No thanks.

I'm all for EVs but not at any cost. Labor haven't exactly explained how they're going to get more EVs here when there is a *world* shortage. Europe and the UK have always struggled with fuel prices, whereas the US and Australia have been quite stable. Maybe Labor are going to play with the cost of fuel to help pay for their promises?

Let the markets sort out supply, let the demand sort out the market. I do not agree with giving tax incentives which may or may not be passed on to consumers.

The money is better spent on infrastructure. I see that the Liberals are offering more infrastructure development assistance than Labor. Labor are going to give us a nurse in every retirement home 24/7, somehow.

Labor - "_a $50,000 model (such as the Nissan Leaf) will be more than $2,000 cheaper as a result of removing the import tariff_." What about the poor family who's car just died and they need to fix it or buy a cheap replacement? Why should they miss out on $2000 that is given to people that can afford a $50,000 car.

Give me infrastructure which will strengthen Australia, not gifts to corporations which will bankrupt us.


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It depends which Tesla battery you have in your car, if it’s the standard range Chinese made battery, it’s lithium Iron, so with that one you can run it 0% to 100% no problem all the time without extra degradation.
> 
> But if you have the Tesla battery with nickel instead of Iron, it’s best to not let your car sit above 90% or below 10% for to long.
> 
> There is no problem with charging up to 100%, right before you drive it, or running down to below 10% right before you charge it, it’s letting it sit at those high or low state of chargers that’s the problem.




Correct.

I have the M3 LR with the higher capacity battery, the recommendation is for everyday charging up to 90% is recommended, for road trips 100% is fine. We do a lot of long distance trips, so quite a few 100% charges. So far no problems.

I've only got the M3 below 10% once or twice, there has always been a charging  option.









						2021 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD With 82 kWh Battery: Charging Analysis
					

Today we will take a look at the most recent fast charging test of the 2021 Tesla Model 3 Long Range version, conducted by Bjørn Nyland at a V3 Supercharger.




					insideevs.com


----------



## Value Collector (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Correct.
> 
> I have the M3 LR with the higher capacity battery, the recommendation is for everyday charging up to 90% is recommended, for road trips 100% is fine. We do a lot of long distance trips, so quite a few 100% charges. So far no problems.
> 
> ...



Nice, I often charge mine to 100% just before road trips to, that’s the good part about being able to set a charge time, I charge to 90% like usual, but then set it to start charging to 100% an hour or so before I plan to wake up for my trip, so it just hits 100% about when I am ready to leave.

During the road trip I keep it set to 100% too, so if I end up staying at any of the charge points a little longer along the way it will go up to 100%.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> That old 'give us favourable incentive and discounts and we'll send more to your country' line.
> 
> No thanks.



It's about having a policy that prevents dumping of ICEVs that have poor emissions standards, rather than actual incentives.


JohnDe said:


> I'm all for EVs but not at any cost.



The advantages of EVs are self explanatory, apart from being regularly presented in this thread, so the "any cost" idea has no legs.


JohnDe said:


> Labor haven't exactly explained how they're going to get more EVs here when there is a *world* shortage. Europe and the UK have always struggled with fuel prices, whereas the US and Australia have been quite stable. Maybe Labor are going to play with the cost of fuel to help pay for their promises?



See my first comment.


JohnDe said:


> Let the markets sort out supply, let the demand sort out the market. I do not agree with giving tax incentives which may or may not be passed on to consumers.



Markets don't make national policies.


JohnDe said:


> The money is better spent on infrastructure. I see that the Liberals are offering more infrastructure development assistance than Labor. Labor are going to give us a nurse in every retirement home 24/7, somehow.



What money.  There is no need for incentives.  So why should there be infrastructure funding.  Tesla rolled out their own!  Major oil producers are now jumping into building EV charging stations overseas


JohnDe said:


> Labor - "_a $50,000 model (such as the Nissan Leaf) will be more than $2,000 cheaper as a result of removing the import tariff_." What about the poor family who's car just died and they need to fix it or buy a cheap replacement? Why should they miss out on $2000 that is given to people that can afford a $50,000 car.



The relief is in tax being removed, not a monetary payment.  In fact the tax was there to protect an industry we no longer have, so why is it still there?


JohnDe said:


> Give me infrastructure which will strengthen Australia, not gifts to corporations which will bankrupt us.



You mean like JobKeeper, which gave away tens of billions and gave us nothing in return?  And which the government refused to chase down billions in outflows to businesses not eligible!  How come we are not bankrupt?


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> It's about having a policy that prevents dumping of ICEVs that have poor emissions standards, rather than actual incentives.




Classic scare mongering tactics. Where are these 'poor emissions' ICEVs going to come from? Australian standards is Euro 6 emissions meaning every new car since 2015 must meet that standard to get registration approval. Europe, the largest market in the world, is introducing Euro 7 emissions. Eventually any manufacturer wanting to sell into Europe will have to meet that standard, Australia usually follows. We will see les polluting vehicles imported as the world moves away from Diesel and towards Euro 7 emissions, electric and hydrogen.




rederob said:


> The advantages of EVs are self explanatory, apart from being regularly presented in this thread, so the "any cost" idea has no legs.




Smoke and mirrors. Yes, EV's are cheaper to run and maintain, I've said so many times. My statement "I'm all for EVs but not at any cost" is about the cost to tax payers that can least afford a new car; why should they miss out on the $2000 tax cut for $50,000 EVs. And if we start giving it to all, how will that help a family starting out that do not have the money to buy a new car?




rederob said:


> See my first comment.




Your first comment does not even come close to answering anything I said there. More smoke and mirrors. If there is a world shortage there will be no more EV's coming here because of a "$2000" tax cut, not unless the manufacturer gets to keep that money which increases their profit.




rederob said:


> Markets don't make national policies.




Markets, the people do influence national policy.




rederob said:


> What money.  There is no need for incentives.  So why should there be infrastructure funding.  Tesla rolled out their own!  Major oil producers are now jumping into building EV charging stations overseas




Exactly. But you called for incentives for EV manufacturers to bring cars here, which includes dropping tax revenue. I'd rather manufacturers spend some of their profits to build infrastructure, but if any incentives are going to be offered I'd rather it on infrastructure rather than to vehicle manufacturers sales. Infrastructure can be used for decades, it improves and strengthens the country in many ways and offers more people a benefit than a discount on a car.




rederob said:


> The relief is in tax being removed, not a monetary payment.




Yes, tax revenue being removed which needs to be made up from somewhere else. A tax discount that the wealthy can take but someone/family misses out on because they have other priorities to spend their limited income on. Whereas an infrastructure build creates jobs, which creates wealth, and is will be accessible over a long period of time allowing people to catch up and benefit. 




rederob said:


> You mean like JobKeeper, which gave away tens of billions and gave us nothing in return?  And which the government refused to chase down billions in outflows to businesses not eligible!  How come we are not bankrupt?




I don't know, is that the same as the School Halls incentive, or the home insulation scheme?


----------



## Smurf1976 (11 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Then conveniently forgets the waste of throwing away perfectly good ice with huge embedded energy



Logically the time to change is when the vehicle is replaced anyway.

For mainstream cars in round figures the average lifespan from new to scrapped is 20 years with very few survivors at the 30 year mark indeed most models basically are extinct at that point.

There’s no rational reason to be scrapping good cars to replace them, the fleet turns over anyway.

We didn’t force the scrapping of cars using leaded petrol or which have zero safety features but they’re essentially gone today even for the most common models.

A Charger or Kingswood for example would noticeably stand out on the road today despite being extremely common a generation ago. 

Apart from enthusiasts the rest are all gone now indeed even a common at the time 1980’s car is rare at this point. For that matter even many 1990’s models are mostly gone - the once ubiquitous Excel isn’t at all common today despite huge numbers being sold at the time.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Classic scare mongering tactics. Where are these 'poor emissions' ICEVs going to come from? Australian standards is Euro 6 emissions meaning every new car since 2015 must meet that standard to get registration approval. Europe, the largest market in the world, is introducing Euro 7 emissions. Eventually any manufacturer wanting to sell into Europe will have to meet that standard, Australia usually follows. We will see les polluting vehicles imported as the world moves away from Diesel and towards Euro 7 emissions, electric and hydrogen.



I suggest you read what manufacturers have said as you appear to have missed that part:
Car makers say lack of emissions regulations putting handbrake on electric vehicles in Australia​That type of comment has been made many times, eg:
*By comparison, Australia’s lack of mandatory fuel efficiency standards means we end up as the dumping ground for vehicles that don’t meet international regulations.*​


JohnDe said:


> Smoke and mirrors. Yes, EV's are cheaper to run and maintain, I've said so many times. My statement "I'm all for EVs but not at any cost" is about the cost to tax payers that can least afford a new car; why should they miss out on the $2000 tax cut for $50,000 EVs.



?
Governments are not a charities.  Policies should have beneficial outcomes, and incentivising vehicles which are safer, assist CO2 reduction, and clean city air meets that standard.


JohnDe said:


> And if we start giving it to all, how will that help a family starting out that do not have the money to buy a new car?



I bought 3 cars second hand before I could afford a new one.  Moreover, I will be selling my present car privately as the BYD arrangement does not cater for trade ins.  I will not be Robinson Crusoe in that regard and the market will therefore see lots of good second hand cars available cheaply!


JohnDe said:


> Your first comment does not even come close to answering anything I said there. More smoke and mirrors. If there is a world shortage there will be no more EV's coming here because of a "$2000" tax cut, not unless the manufacturer gets to keep that money which increases their profit.



It does not work that way.


JohnDe said:


> Markets, the people do influence national policy.



That's laughable.  Why do you think we have been bypassed?  Were it not for EVDirect we would not be getting BYD cars here, now.
Markets influence investment, and investment is centred around making a profit.
Oversaes markets offer better prospects for profit with minimal effort from manufacturers.


JohnDe said:


> Exactly. But you called for incentives for EV manufacturers to bring cars here, which includes dropping tax revenue.



I recall saying better *policies *are needed.  The fact that Labor is proposing to drop a tax component that should not exist is beside the point.


JohnDe said:


> I'd rather manufacturers spend some of their profits to build infrastructure, but if any incentives are going to be offered I'd rather it on infrastructure rather than to vehicle manufacturers sales. Infrastructure can be used for decades, it improves and strengthens the country in many ways and offers more people a benefit than a discount on a car.



The horses have already bolted.  There is a plethora of State/Territory incentives out there.  That also includes infrastructure spend.


JohnDe said:


> Yes, tax revenue being removed which needs to be made up from somewhere else.



On the contrary.  Research backs the fact that NEVs will lead to significant long term savings.


JohnDe said:


> A tax discount that the wealthy can take but someone/family misses out on because they have other priorities to spend their limited income on. Whereas an infrastructure build creates jobs, which creates wealth, and is will be accessible over a long period of time allowing people to catch up and benefit.



I linked to ACT policy on zero interest EV loans.  I have put many ideas into this thread that preclude the wealthy from tax offsets and actually enhance the ability for those less well off to buy an EV.


JohnDe said:


> I don't know, is that the same as the School Halls incentive, or the home insulation scheme?



No as those were job creation positive and relatively cheap.  Unfortunately the Home Installation Program was an administrative and compliance disaster and rightfully discontinued early.


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> I suggest you read what manufacturers have said as you appear to have missed that part:
> Car makers say lack of emissions regulations putting handbrake on electric vehicles in Australia​That type of comment has been many times, eg:
> *By comparison, Australia’s lack of mandatory fuel efficiency standards means we end up as the dumping ground for vehicles that don’t meet international regulations.*​




What emissions  standard is that? Euro 6 or Euro 7? Fuel efficiency standard, how will that increase the number of EVs in Australia when there is a world shortage. Manufacturers are pulling the wool over your eyes to cover their stuff up of not preparing for an EV future.




rederob said:


> ?
> Governments are not a charities.  Policies should have beneficial outcomes, and incentivising vehicles which are safer, assist CO2 reduction, and clean city air meets that standard.




Governments have many responsibilities, offering incentives for people to buy a car shouldn't be one of them. Building infrastructure for the benefit of the people and to strengthen a country for future generations.




rederob said:


> I bought 3 cars second hand before I could afford a new one.  Moreover, I will be selling my present car privately as the BYD arrangement does not cater for trade ins.  I will not be Robinson Crusoe in that regard and the market will therefore see lots of good second hand cars available cheaply!




Oh, trickle down economics you say?




rederob said:


> It does not work that way.  I suggest you read more widely and come up with better ideas.




Of course 'it does not work that way', that is why I am against government trying to influence by tax cuts. When world stock levels increase manufacturers will bring more EVs to market, competition will reduce prices, customers will come, and a used market will start. There is no reason for a government to waste tax dollars (loss of revenue) that will mainly benefit the manufacturer. Especially when the real problem of supply is a shortage of stock, not the BS reason of emission rules.




rederob said:


> That's laughable.  Why do you think we have been bypassed?  Were it not for EVDirect we would not be getting BYD cars here, now.
> Markets influence investment, and investment is centred around making a profit.
> Oversaes markets offer better prospects for profit with minimal effort from manufacturers.




Bypassed? Tesla has sold vehicles in Australia when it was unfashionable for most. The truth is that no other manufacturer is ready, they are not prepared, they have not invested, they do not have the infrastructure, they can not build enough stock to supply the countries that they are in, let alone one on the other side of the world. You and the labor party are being hoodwinked. The manufacturers are blaming others and at the same time squeezing for dollars.




rederob said:


> I recall saying better *policies *are needed.  The fact that Labor is proposing to drop a tax component that should not exist is beside the point.




Fair enough, most EV and environmental supporters are calling for the same. I am one of those, I want policy that will put in place an infrastructure that will benefit all. I think that it should follow the Tesla model; Charging stations with more than 4 chargers, in a location that is usable, a format that will be easy to use, infrastructure that can be used for decades by the majority. I presume you have seen this 




rederob said:


> The horses have already bolted.  There is a plethora of State/Territory incentives out there.  That also includes infrastructure spend.




Great. Now the Feds can concentrate on legislation that brings all infrastructure under one scheme for useability and sustainability. No need to waste more Tax dollars on incentives for vehicle manufacturers to boos their profits, on a wish of more stock to Australia when there is a world wide shortage.




rederob said:


> On the contrary.  Research backs the fact that NEVs will lead to significant long term savings.




For who? The people that don't have the $50,000 to take advantage of the $2000 tax cut? No. The benefit goes to people like you and me that don't need an incentive. The money is better spent on infrastructure, which will create jobs and build something for all when your trickle down car comes through.




rederob said:


> I linked to ACT policy on zero interest EV loans.  I have put many ideas into this thread that preclude the wealthy from tax offsets and actually enhance the ability for those less well of to buy an EV.




What is the average pay in the ACT? Doesn't really sound like something for all, I can't imagine a family on a base wage able to buy a new $50,000 EV just because the loan is interest free. An infrastructure build across the ACT would have been better value, create wealth by increasing the wages of workers while they build for the future.




rederob said:


> No as those were job creation positive and relatively cheap.  Unfortunately the Home Installation Program was an administrative and compliance disaster and rightfully discontinued early.




Relatively cheap? Builders had so much work before the School Halls that there became a shortage of everything, prices skyrocketed, short cuts were taken. Not to mention halls built just to get the grant, not properly designed, poorly located due to space restriction.


----------



## 3 hound (11 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Most of the “working class” believe they are “middle class”, and in the last election Labor attacked the middle class, so they got smacked.
> 
> Labor forgot that if you try to initiate a class war, you have to make sure the people that you need to support you understand exactly which class they are in.
> 
> ...



I think your view of the working class is about 100 years out of date.

Nearly all the people I know that weren't born with money and who are still in their prime that own shares, investment properties, own a beach house have a jetski, Harley, patriot camp trailer behind their $130 000 79 series are all plumbers, mechanics, electricians, plant operators and truck drivers, caterers, cleaners.... etc - the working class.

The heavy drinking & smoking consumer debt people are nothing like the working class I see everyday, honestly mate you would have to be an out of touch wannabe snob to think the way you have described the working class.


----------



## 3 hound (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Relatively cheap? Builders had so much work before the School Halls that there became a shortage of everything, prices skyrocketed, short cuts were taken. Not to mention halls built just to get the grant, not properly designed, poorly located due to space restriction.




My god this brings back bad memories. Criminals, crooks and incompetents took up putting in those home insulation schemes. It was a disaster and so many died in the process it was outrageous

The best thing the gov can do is do nothing and let the market work it out.


----------



## Value Collector (11 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I think your view of the working class is about 100 years out of date.
> 
> Nearly all the people I know that weren't born with money and who are still in their prime that own shares, investment properties, own a beach house have a jetski, Harley, patriot camp trailer behind their $130 000 79 series are all plumbers, mechanics, electricians, plant operators and truck drivers, caterers, cleaners.... etc - the working class.
> 
> The heavy drinking & smoking consumer debt people are nothing like the working class I see everyday, honestly mate you would have to be an out of touch wannabe snob to think the way you have described the working class.



Most Tradesmen, That own shares and investment properties would be Middle class not working class.

The “working class” label generally refers to low skill workers or low income jobs and also most other people living pay check to pay check who would drop into the welfare class (underclass) if they stopped working. (Alcohol, cigarettes and consumer debt could stop a tradesman joining the middle class and staying working class though if it prevents him growing his business or investing)

If you are a successful Tradesman, you are probably part business man maybe even employing others, have a decent superannuation, own your own home, have other investments and are not  living pay check to pay check, so wouldn’t be classed as working class they would be middle class at the lowest, and as their super and other investments grow they would be becoming more capitalist class.

The biggest test is if someone stopped working, how long would they last before needing welfare eg the dole or the pension? if the answer is less than a month, they are definitely working class, if the answer is never need welfare because of super and other personal assets they are definitely capitalist class, middle class are the people somewhere in the middle between the paycheck to paycheck people and the financially free.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> What emmisions  standard is that? Euro 6 or Euro 7?
> 
> Governments have many responsibilities, offering incentives for people to buy a car shouldn't be one of them. Building infrastructure for the benefit of the people and to strengthen a country for future generations.
> 
> ...



C'mon John, your replies are weak at best.
First, it's irrelevant as to whose "emission standard" as manufacturers are basing their decision on what we have compared to other nations.  That is, *they *decide and have made clear *why*.
Second, in the absence of federal policies, States/territories *have* offered incentives.  And the infrastructure is for a select few who are wealthy EV buyers ATM, so it seems to run counter your points.  Nevertheless, the whole issue of how NEV adoption can or should be supported remains a dogs breakfast because the feds have been neglectful and incompetent.  It's covid all over again where the States championed what needed to be done.
Third, owning a *new *car is not a necessity for those less well off.  That has nothing to do with trickle down economics, but the reality is that even-cheaper second hand cars will be an outcome.
Fourth, stop banging on about federal tax cuts as there have not been any.  And if they do come then I have pointed out that they actually derive a benefit rather than a loss.
Fifth, manufacturers gain nothing financially from tax offsets as they would otherwise recoup any taxes paid from actual sales made. 
Sixth, why don't you believe what manufactures and industry say about why our market is as it is?
Seventh, you keep overlooking that other markets have considerable choice by comparison.  Given the depth and variety of vehicle dealerships in Australia your point about manufacturers not being prepared or ready does not wash!
Eighth, your point about manufacturers boosting their profits has no reasoned basis.  We are a pitifully small market and manufacturers will do much better elsewhere, *and they are!*
Ninth, the long term savings are to national and state coffers by virtue of the benefits I spelled out earlier.  For example, the higher level of electronic safety features of most NEVs will lead to fewer deaths, lesser injuries, and greater productivity.
Tenth, do some research on how many people, irrespective of income, borrow to buy cars.  In this case the ACT loan is specifically targeted to those who are less likely to buy an EV, and the loan could make the difference.  Your point about the wage levels of those working in the ACT was a sideshow.
Eleventh, JobKeeper cost 108B and no jobs were created.  The HIP cost under 2B and  was supposed to create 9,600, but was cut short so created a lesser number.


----------



## 3 hound (11 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Most Tradesmen, That own shares and investment properties would be Middle class not working class.
> 
> The “working class” label generally refers to low skill workers or low income jobs and also most other people living pay check to pay check who would drop into the welfare class (underclass) if they stopped working.
> 
> ...



I don't know what class or if that concept makes much sense anymore despite what the neat infographic says.

I do know the people that are cashed to the eyeballs and have assets in my experience are not tertiary trained and they don't vote for Labour. In fact the Labour party treats these people with utter contempt as evidenced in the last federal election.


----------



## Value Collector (11 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I don't know what class or if that concept makes much sense anymore despite what the neat infographic says.
> 
> I do know the people that are cashed to the eyeballs and have assets in my experience are not tertiary trained and they don't vote for Labour. In fact the Labour party treats these people with utter contempt as evidenced in the last federal election.



If they are cashed up to their eyeballs, they aren’t working class, regardless of their training level, they would be one of the higher classes perhaps even capitalist class, hence why they probably don’t vote labour. as I said the biggest test is how long you can survive if you stop working, I myself am in the capitalist class because of my asset level but never went to university or did any trade (unless you class being a soldier a trade)

1, Working class are people that rely on working eg paycheck to paycheck types.

2, Capitalist class don’t rely on working, due to being capital owners.

Middle class are in the middle of those two obviously, eg not at the top yet, but not close to the bottom either that’s why they are called the middle because they either are accumulating assets that are pulling them closer to being in the capitalist class or have skills or work ethic that allow them to earn at levels above the average working class people.

As I said though, alcohol or cigarettes and consumer debt can stop even a highly skilled person from joining the middle class if it prevents them accumulating assets or growing their business.


----------



## Boggo (11 April 2022)

And everyone gets paid by a capitalist, either directly or indirectly.


----------



## 3 hound (11 April 2022)

Boggo said:


> everyone gets paid by a capitalist




Welfare and stimulus is neither paid for capitalists or taxes (indirect).

In 2022 and for some time now these things are "paid" for by entering digits on a keyboard and into a spreadsheet/balance sheet.


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> C'mon John, your replies are weak at best.




That's a great way to end a debate.

Strange how you will believe Volkswagen Group Australia’s managing director Michael Bartsch reasoning for VW's lack of EVs in Australia and his sudden expertise in emission standards. Especially after the Volkswagen emissions scandal where they lied to the whole world for years, possibly causing health issues and shortened life expectancy for millions of people across the globe.





rederob said:


> First, it's irrelevant as to whose "emission standard" as manufacturers are basing their decision on what we have compared to other nations.  That is, *they *decide and have made clear *why*.
> Second, in the absence of federal policies, States/territories *have* offered incentives.  And the infrastructure is for a select few who are wealthy EV buyers ATM, so it seems to run counter your points.  Nevertheless, the whole issue of how NEV adoption can or should be supported remains a dogs breakfast because the feds have been neglectful and incompetent.  It's covid all over again where the States championed what needed to be done.
> Third, owning a *new *car is not a necessity for those less well off.  That has nothing to do with trickle down economics, but the reality is that even-cheaper second hand cars is going to be an outcome.
> Fourth, stop banging on about federal tax cuts as there have not been any.  And if they do come then I have pointed out that they actually derives a benefit rather than a loss.
> ...




You keep believing those nice vehicle manufacturers that blame Australia for the lack of stock, instead of sharing the truth. The truth being that all the European and North American vehicle manufactures did not believe that an EV future was coming so fast, that they got blind sided by the popularity of Tesla EV sales, that not one of those manufacturers have built a single EV factory, no other EV manufacturer except Tesla has the capacity to supply their own market let alone markets on the other side of the world

Looks like someone and a political party are being fooled by a few companies crying wolf. Those companies that can't manufacture the EVs to supply any single marketing enough quantity, the same companies that lied about their diesel emissions and now try to pull the wool over the eyes of their customers by blaming governments for not having 'mandatory fuel consumption legislation, which has nothing to do with the number of EVs that they can send to us.

You can also keep believing that "manufacturers gain nothing financially from tax offset". No they won't gain a cent for 6 months after dropping the price, and it's not their fault when after 6 months pricing pressures force them to increase the price $1995. Poor manufacturers, they'd never do that would they?

Yes, you keep up those strong arguments for VW, after all they only care for us people and the environment, not there bank account. And don't forget to keep backing those tax cuts for the new EV buyers, because after 10 years everyone that couldn't afford a new car will own a second hand one from your 'trickle down' scenario. All those that benefited from the tax incentives an the saving they got from not have the high fuel prices and benefited from the high resale that others missed out on.

Yes nice of you and those governments believing those car manufacturers, because they are so honest when it comes to money.


----------



## Value Collector (11 April 2022)

Boggo said:


> And everyone gets paid by a capitalist, either directly or indirectly.



Capital and Labour are joined at the hip, it takes both to produce all the goods and services that keep our society above the poverty line and keep the taxes flowing.

The good thing about a capitalist society is you are not locked into one side or the other, you can be a worker and a capitalist at the same time. Eg you can be stacking shelves in Woolies and buying shares in Woolies and you are operating on both the labour and capital sides of the economy.

That’s the good thing about superannuation, it forces people to become capital owners, even if they never would other wise.


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Capital and Labour are joined at the hip, it takes both to produce all the goods and services that keep our society above the poverty line and keep the taxes flowing.
> 
> The good thing about a capitalist society is you are not locked into one side or the other, you can be a worker and a capitalist at the same time. Eg you can be stacking shelves in Woolies and buying shares in Woolies and you are operating on both the labour and capital sides of the economy.
> 
> That’s the good thing about superannuation, it forces people to become capital owners, even if they never would other wise.



I don't now if the scheme still exists, but woolies workers used to get woolies shares as some sort of bonus share purchase plan, it sounded like a good idea.


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't now if the scheme still exists, but woolies workers used to get woolies shares as some sort of bonus share purchase plan, it sounded like a good idea.




Tesla offer share packages to their workforce. Some have retired early.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> That's a great way to end a debate.



Well this effort from you is weaker still!


JohnDe said:


> Strange how you will believe Volkswagen Group Australia’s managing director Michael Bartsch reasoning for VW's lack of EVs in Australia and his sudden expertise in emission standards. Especially after the Volkswagen emissions scandal where they lied to the whole world for years, possibly causing health issues and shortened life expectancy for millions of people across the globe.



Bait and switch in *not *an argument. VW was not alone, and I gave links.


JohnDe said:


> You keep believing those nice vehicle manufacturers that blame Australia for the lack of stock, instead of sharing the truth. The truth being that all the European and North American vehicle manufactures did not believe that an EV future was coming so fast, that they got blind sided by the popularity of Tesla EV sales, that not one of those manufacturers have built a single EV factory, no other EV manufacturer except Tesla has the capacity to supply their own market let alone markets on the other side of the world



Your point is off the mark as Tesla is not at issue here.  We don't have the vehicle *range *because manufacturers chose other markets ahead of ours.  I suggest you look at the post I made on top UK EV sales to get an idea of what is possible.


JohnDe said:


> Looks like someone and a political party are being fooled by a few companies crying wolf. Those companies that can't manufacture the EVs to supply any single marketing enough quantity,



Avoidance personified.  Try buying a Skoda Enyaq EV here today!  I can buy any of the Skoda ICE models today but would have to wait until late 2023 for their EV!  I could name many more with similar outcomes.


JohnDe said:


> You can also keep believing that "manufacturers gain nothing financially from tax offset". No they won't gain a cent for 6 months after dropping the price, and it's not their fault when after 6 months pricing pressures force them to increase the price $1995. Poor manufacturers, they'd never do that would they?



*Not *an argument.


JohnDe said:


> Yes, you keep up those strong arguments for VW, after all they only car for us people not there bank account. And don't forget to keep backing those tax cuts for the new EV buyers, because after 10 years everyone that couldn't afford a new car will own a second hand one form all those that benefited from the tax incentives an the saving they got from no have the high fuel prices and the high resale that others missed out on.



*Not *an argument.


JohnDe said:


> Yes nice of you and those governments believing those car manufacturers, because they are so honest when it comes to money.



*Not *an argument.

Here's where your case fails.  EV penetration in every European nation is superior to ours because they have more choice.  We don't!  
The fact that *some* - *not many *- EVs are in strong demand here is more a reflection on what is available to purchase here rather than what is potentially available.  
There are literally hundreds of EV manufacturers in China, and apart from MGs very few are yet on our roads here.  What's more they range from cheap basic models to expensive long range luxury cars.


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Well this effort from you is weaker still!




Looks like someone knows when they’re on a loss, but to throw out rational debate for below the belt hits, I never picked you as one of those.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Looks like someone knows when they’re on a loss, but to throw out rational debate for below the belt hits, I never picked you as one of those.



You keep raising irrelevances and cannot address the key issues.
Moreover, you don't want to believe what industry says about our market.
On top of that you want to bring in the topic of incentives, which are incidental to policies.
You have no rational response to the issue of a minimal available EV range in Australia and now want to say I am the one not up to it.
There is a really simple explanation for our EV market today, and it's a total failure of coherent State/territory policies as a result of the fact there is no national policy that makes sense.

Lift your game!


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> You keep raising irrelevances and cannot address the key issues.




key issues? What, the issues that only you think relevant?

My point is that I do not want tax dollars thrown at vehicle manufacturers so that people like us can buy a cheaper EV. If any tax dollars or incentive is going to be given I want it on infrastructure so that a lot more people can benefit from it.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> My point is that I do not want tax dollars thrown at vehicle manufacturers so that people like us can buy a cheaper EV.



If that's the case, show where it is so.


JohnDe said:


> If any tax dollars or incentive is going to be given I want it on infrastructure so that a lot more people can benefit from it.



I suggest you look at the logic of that statement!
Without incentives only those well off will be buying EVs. In that case it's the select few who benefit.
But I look forward to you showing why that is not the case.

Here's why national policies supporting EV adoption are more important than financial incentives per se:


----------



## sptrawler (11 April 2022)

Interesting read on autonomous driving in San Francisco.








						Empty autonomous car pulled over by police, tries to flee
					

When police pulled over an autonomous electric car for driving without headlights, it initially took off – and there was no one behind the wheel to be




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Reaction to the program appears to have been largely positive so far, and there have been no serious accidents reported since it began more than five years ago.
Up to 20 manufacturers – including Mercedes-Benz, Tesla, Google’s Waymo, and Zoox – now have permission to test autonomous technology on public roads in the USA.


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> If that's the case, show where it is so.




I did, a direct quote from Albanese’s website.


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting read on autonomous driving in San Francisco.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The future is closer than most can comprehend 🤓


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I did, a direct quote from Albanese’s website.



So you don't actually have evidence!


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> So you don't actually have evidence!




A direct quote from the leader of the Labor party, it’s on his website.


----------



## rederob (11 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> A direct quote from the leader of the Labor party, it’s on his website.



Do I need to repeat how weak your points have been?


----------



## JohnDe (11 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Do I need to repeat how weak your points have been?




Open your mind, the truth may set you free.

Tax cuts for $50,000 EVs will only help a few.

Use those tax dollars to build infrastructure for the many.

Be wary of VW, a convicted cheat still paying for their sins, offering advice on emissions.

Don’t believe the word coming from vehicle manufacturers struggling to hide the fact that they can’t produce enough product.

Remember that profit is a strong incentive for business, and many will do and say a lot to get a bigger share. Including persuading governments to offer tax breaks, instead of working out how to build at lower costs.

If your view point can’t bend it will break. You don’t like my opinion and say that it is “weak”, which in turn causes your mind to shut down analysis.

I’ve looked at your suggestions, and I have seen those ideas implemented. They are not fair to the majority. Forcing quick change to peoples main mode of transport by reducing or eliminating taxes on new EVs, and not introducing a form of road tax for EV users, while introducing emission laws which will increase the price of budget ICEVs and possibly defect existing units, can only benefit those that can afford to purchase an EV while penalising a large section of the Australian population that can not afford an EV.

You mentioned that eventually used EVs will trickle down to the people that can’t afford new, to the same people that received no benefit of tax cuts for that EV, but had to endure the higher costs of owning an ICEV so as to make it easier for people with $50,000 to get an EV and keep manufacturers happy.

That makes no sense. Especially when there is not enough EV production in the whole world at the moment, and there won’t be for a few years.

Prepare the foundation. Plan and build infrastructure to cope with an EV future. Jobs will be created, wealth shared, wages increased and then people can afford to buy EVs.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2022)

When I queried the below point from you and asked where there was evidence you said it was a direct quote from Albanese's website:


JohnDe said:


> My point is that I do not want tax dollars thrown at vehicle manufacturers so that people like us can buy a cheaper EV.



If that is the case you should be able to identify the manufacturers who have received the claimed "tax dollars" as I have not found that your comment is true.
Are you talking about what Albanese hopes to do if he wins office, or something happening now that I am unaware of?
Are you confusing *tax cuts* with monies paid as *incentives*?
I cannot follow your argument if what you are saying is not making sense.

Let's go on... .
While VW may be a proven cheat, that point is not relevant to their decision not to place their EVs in our market.  Here's what an industry body says that backs up VW:
*"The lack of supply policies in the Future Fuels and Vehicles Strategy means that Australian vehicle manufacturers will continue to struggle for unit allocation and Australians will miss out on the choice of vehicles they want to buy."*​Our tiny neighbour across the ditch has supportive EV policies and as a result presently has 3 times our EV market penetration.

You and I are on the same page on so many things EV, but there are too many things you have said that just don't square with what's going on.

For example, I have not yet seen or heard a single manufacturer wanting tax breaks to land vehicles in our market.  Moreover Tesla, which has the biggest EV share by far, got their share well before any incentives of any kind - existing or proposed - were available.  And EVDirect claims BYD is second to Tesla in terms of 2022 sales (via pre-orders) despite not yet having a saleable car in a local showroom.

With regard to your comments on some of the ideas I have offered to assist the EV transition I would be grateful if you pointed out examples so I could respond.  I am a strong advocate of policies that are well targeted rather than broad brush, and have regularly stated that if monetary incentives are offered then they need to be capped so as not to favour the wealthy. Such an example already exists whereby Queensland's rebate cap precludes Teslas and a number of other expensive imports.

You said that I "mentioned that eventually used EVs will trickle down,"  but that was not the case.  I said people like me will sell their used *ICEVs *privately into the market at comparatively lower prices as online sales channels do not accept trade ins.  I have said that used EVs will sell at a premium and have posted on instances where buyers will pay more for a second hand EV today rather than wait 9 months for a new car (and probably cop a price hike in the interim).


JohnDe said:


> Prepare the foundation. Plan and build infrastructure to cope with an EV future. Jobs will be created, wealth shared, wages increased and then people can afford to buy EVs.



Indeed!
Every country, without exception, has *supportive policies* as the foundation.  Whereas our policies favour manufacturer avoidance, to the extent that our EV sales are the lowest by a long margin among western industrialised nations.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

I agree with you @JohnDe there is no point giving incentives to something that doesn't require it, rederob and myself have ordered EV's and as you say we have to wait because manufacturers can't keep up with demand, it certainly doesn't sound like it needs an incentive to me.

Also as you say, there would be no greater disincentive to the uptake of EV's, than pictures of queues of cars waiting in line to get a charge, if it is left to the private sector to install the infrastructure, it will lag the demand as they want a rate of return on their capital. Much like what is happening in the electrical grid system over East, the private sector are reluctant to deploy capital into at call generation, because there is no certainty as to how much it will be dispatched, therefore Kurri Kurri is being built by the Government, that's what Governments should do install infrastructure that helps the majority of the general public, after all it is the general public who are paying for it.

But it has been an interesting discussion.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with you @JohnDe there is no point giving incentives to something that doesn't require it, rederob and myself have ordered EV's and as you say we have to wait because manufacturers can't keep up with demand, it certainly doesn't sound like it needs an incentive to me.
> 
> Also as you say, there would be no greater disincentive to the uptake of EV's, than pictures of queues of cars waiting in line to get a charge, if it is left to the private sector to install the infrastructure, it will lag the demand as they want a rate of return on their capital. Much like what is happening in the electrical grid system over East, the private sector are reluctant to deploy capital into at call generation, because there is no certainty as to how much it will be dispatched, therefore Kurri Kurri is being built by the Government, that's what Governments should do install infrastructure that helps the majority of the general public, after all it is the general public who are paying for it.
> 
> But it has been an interesting discussion.




As a lot of young urban dwellers will be the prime demographic for EV's I wonder on a practical level how they will charge them at home in a unit complex with underground parking that is not designated to any specific individual.


----------



## qldfrog (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> As a lot of young urban dwellers will be the prime demographic for EV's I wonder on a practical level how they will charge them at home in a unit complex with underground parking that is not designated to any specific individual.



Do not worry too much, the EVs will not be there
not enough lithium..again facts not narrative




__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				



Until new battery tech is found, the ev pipe dream will not happen, at least not on a world scale


----------



## qldfrog (12 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Do not worry too much, the EVs will not be there
> not enough lithium..again facts not narrative
> 
> 
> ...



Apologies some messup with re editing but you got the link i hope


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> As a lot of young urban dwellers will be the prime demographic for EV's I wonder on a practical level how they will charge them at home in a unit complex with underground parking that is not designated to any specific individual.



That is going to be a major issue, the electrical distribution system may have to be beefed up in some areas to meet maximum demand, the other thing that is being developed in Europe is inductive charging under the parking spaces but that will be expensive to install and I'm not sure on the charging efficiency yet.
My guess is a lot of people will have to use public charging outlets on the street as is the case in Europe, the advantage we have is that high density living isn't as widespread here.
The other thing that is happening is the EV manufacturers are increasing the charging voltage on the vehicles, which in turn reduces the charge current, so charge times can  be reduced as the heat produced is much less.


----------



## JohnDe (12 April 2022)

rederob said:


> When I queried the below point from you and asked where there was evidence you said it was a direct quote from Albanese's website:




That is correct.


----------



## Value Collector (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> As a lot of young urban dwellers will be the prime demographic for EV's I wonder on a practical level how they will charge them at home in a unit complex with underground parking that is not designated to any specific individual.



I don’t think young urban dwellers are the prime demographic, I think the prime demographic is people in the suburbs commuting or travelling around the suburbs in their daily life.

But either way, it’s not that big of a deal to install some power points or chargers into apartment building car parks, and as demand grows obviously so will the public chargers, that’s how business works, it’s much easier to install EV charging than it is to install petrol refilling locations, and petrol stations pop up everywhere through the normal business of demand and supply.

But as I said the low hanging fruit is all the people in the suburbs that have garages or park in their driveways where they would just charge at home.

When it comes to apartments, a lot of them would be suitable for chargers or PowerPoints, and the ones that aren’t the people could use public chargers once a week just like they use public petrol stations anyway.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> the advantage we have is that high density living isn't as widespread here.




It is widespread in the key demographic looking to purchase EV's.

I have a house, very large yard and at some point will get solar. When the market, prices infrastructure is right I will get an EV.

I am not the key demographic in the upcoming EV market however.

Youngsters in high density living presumably are.


----------



## JohnDe (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I agree with you @JohnDe there is no point giving incentives to something that doesn't require it, rederob and myself have ordered EV's and as you say we have to wait because manufacturers can't keep up with demand, it certainly doesn't sound like it needs an incentive to me.
> 
> Also as you say, there would be no greater disincentive to the uptake of EV's, than pictures of queues of cars waiting in line to get a charge, if it is left to the private sector to install the infrastructure, it will lag the demand as they want a rate of return on their capital. Much like what is happening in the electrical grid system over East, the private sector are reluctant to deploy capital into at call generation, because there is no certainty as to how much it will be dispatched, therefore Kurri Kurri is being built by the Government, that's what Governments should do install infrastructure that helps the majority of the general public, after all it is the general public who are paying for it.
> 
> But it has been an interesting discussion.




There is currently a lot of plans by different groups to build charging infrastructure, but like the guys from Now You Know point out, no one seems to know how many and where to set up the stations. Tesla are the only ones that have succeeded. 

My thinking is that if government got involved with the infrastructure build with private industry and using Tesla's knowledge in a similar way that the SA government did to set up the battery back up, we could have a top class charging infrastructure across the country. And as you say, it would encourage people to take up EV ownership.

Once EV supply is up to scratch.


----------



## Value Collector (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> It is widespread in the key demographic looking to purchase EV's.
> 
> I have a house, very large yard and at some point will get solar. When the market, prices infrastructure is right I will get an EV.
> 
> ...



You are the key demographic, I am not sure why you think ev’s would be limited to youngsters in high density.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> But either way, it’s not that big of a deal to install some power points or chargers into apartment building car parks




How does that work when you don't have your own car park, there are enough fights over shared resources and spaces already.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

B


Value Collector said:


> You are the key demographic, I am not sure why you think ev’s would be limited to youngsters in high density.




Because guys like me will still retain monster V8 turbo diesels as there primary form of transport, at least until I die.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> There is currently a lot of plans by different groups to build charging infrastructure, but like the guys from Now You Know point out, no one seems to know how many and where to set up the stations. Tesla are the only ones that have succeeded.
> 
> My thinking is that if government got involved with the infrastructure build with private industry and using Tesla's knowledge in a similar way that the SA government did to set up the battery back up, we could have a top class charging infrastructure across the country. And as you say, it would encourage people to take up EV ownership.
> 
> Once EV supply is up to scratch.



Yes at least they are now standardising plugs, the next thing they need to do is standadise a charging voltage, then mass roll out could happen.
If they decide on 800v, a lot of design will be reguired for safety aspects, also at 800v it isnt a common voltage so charging gear will have to be designed at the moment charging voltages are about half that, so tapping into the LV distribution isn't an issue as it is 440v and charging is around that level.


----------



## Value Collector (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> How does that work when you don't have your own car park, there are enough fights over shared resources and spaces already.



A lot of apartments do have allocated spaces, for them it would be pretty easy.

You can always think of situations where something is going to be difficult, but they are generally sub-groups of sub-groups, and the answer is simply as I stated, if there is absolutely no way to install home charging at an apartment building, then use a public charger, or stick to petrol for now.

But I think the market will fix apartments too, eg the ones with charging will be more attractive, so land lords will want to install charging and body corporate politics will fold.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> That is correct.



Like most of the points you made in our "discussion", they lack evidence and you have therefore been unable to support them.
If that's the best you can offer, it says a fair bit about your abilities to present information that is credible.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> A lot of apartments do have allocated spaces, for them it would be pretty easy.
> 
> You can always think of situations where something is going to be difficult, but they are generally sub-groups of sub-groups, and the answer is simply as I stated, if there is absolutely no way to install home charging at an apartment building, then use a public charger, or stick to petrol for now.
> 
> But I think the market will fix apartments too, eg the ones with charging will be more attractive, so land lords will want to install charging and body corporate politics will fold.



The big issue is whether the distribution system in that area can carry it, if a large substation has to be upgraded, body corporates couldn't afford that, trust me.


----------



## Value Collector (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> B
> 
> 
> Because guys like me will still retain monster V8 turbo diesels as there primary form of transport, at least until I die.



I take it you have never driven an electric car, or are compensating for something.

But as I said earlier have fun filling up for $2 a litre, My portfolio thanks you for your donation, mean while my car is charging now for only $0.03 per “Litre equivalent”.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The big issue is whether the distribution system in that area can carry it, if a large substation has to be upgraded, body corporates couldn't afford that, trust me.




This is why I will be sitting back and letting the early adopters sort out the teething problems.


----------



## Value Collector (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The big issue is whether the distribution system in that area can carry it, if a large substation has to be upgraded, body corporates couldn't afford that, trust me.



There are smart chargers that communicate to each other to reduce or increase output depending on how many other cars in the complex are plugged in, chargers could also be on timers to no run during peak times, or be idled back during peak times.

I imagine the energy retailers are going to come up with easy ways to make sure most car charging is happening during off peak times.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I take it you have never driven an electric car, or are compensating for something.
> 
> But as I said earlier have fun filling up for $2 a litre, My portfolio thanks you for your donation, mean while my car is charging now for only $0.03 per “Litre equivalent”.



It's called loving life, some go on ocean cruises, some buy lots of shoes and pretty clothes, I choose to fang it to over the dunes to my favourite fishing spots. You have your games, I have mine.

What's even the point of investments and wealth creation if all you use it for is to see a graph sloping upwards on a computer screen.

Sounds like you need to reevaluate your life bro.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I imagine the energy retailers are going to come up with easy ways to make sure most car charging is happening during off peak times.




Imagine better, if most of the charging is done in off peak times then off peak becomes peak.

Remember widespread uptake of EV across the entire population causes new excess demand for electricity that has never existed before and it's on top of the existing demand in the complete absence of EV  that will also increase.


----------



## JohnDe (12 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Like most of the point you made, they lack evidence and you have therefore been unable to support them.
> If that's the best you can offer, it says a fair bit about your abilities to present information that is credible.




Maybe it's your lack of observation and thought, when a different opinion and idea is put in front of you.

I cut and pasted part of Albanese's mention about tax, even had a link. 

Regardless of what you think, the point is that giving $50,000 EVs a tax cut will only benefit people that can afford new cars and adds nothing to the supply of EVs to the market because the manufacturers can no build enough. VW are not going to bypass their European market to supply Australia when they can't even supply their own continent.

The vehicle manufactures have sold you their plan to hide the fact that there is not enough EVs for Australia, while at the same time getting tax incentives for customers. How will government ensure that the manufactures do not increase pricing? How will government get more EV imports when there is no stock? Why should my kids have to top up lost tax revenue for no benefit?


What does your plan give us - 
People that can afford an EV get a discount
A small increase in EV sales (if stock is available)
Used EV market in 4+ years

Leave the selling of cars to the manufacturers, and the buying to the punters.

Governments should prepare the country for the future by getting infrastructure up and running. Build the infrastructure and we get multiple benefits -

Job creation
Wealth creation and wage increases
Incentive for faster and higher uptake of EVs
Confidence for users to travel across the country
Charging support for owners living in units and apartments
Long term infrastructure for decades to come.

You have definitely highlighted the flaws in the Labor party's plan for EVs, thank you.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Maybe it's your lack of observation and thought, when a different opinion and idea is put in front of you.
> 
> I cut and pasted part of Albanese's mention about tax, even had a link.



That is not evidence it is occurring, and I asked you show which manufacturers were benefitting.  Can you do that?


JohnDe said:


> Regardless of what you think, the point is that giving $50,000 EVs a tax cut will only benefit people that can afford new cars and adds nothing to the supply of EVs to the market because the manufacturers can no build enough. VW are not going to bypass their European market to supply Australia when they can't even supply their own continent.



Please show where there is a tax break for EVs as I keep asking and get nothing back.


JohnDe said:


> The vehicle manufactures have sold you their plan to hide the fact that there is not enough EVs for Australia, while at the same time getting tax incentives for customers.



Show this is the case as I have not seen it anywhere except in your comments.


JohnDe said:


> You have definitely highlighted the flaws in the Labor party's plan for EVs, thank you.



I have no idea what you are talking about!
Labor has not been in power for a long time.

Perhaps you can point to the policies presently in place supporting your ideas rather than invent situation which do not exist.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I cut and pasted part of Albanese's mention about tax, even had a link.



please nominate the post as I could not find you link,


----------



## JohnDe (12 April 2022)

rederob said:


> please nominate the post as I could not find you link,




At the beginning of our debate


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Governments should prepare the country for the future by getting infrastructure up and running. Build the infrastructure and we get multiple benefits -
> 
> Job creation
> Wealth creation and wage increases
> ...



It isn't a lot different to the NBN really, the government didn't give everyone an incentive to buy a computer, they upgraded the infrastructure, so that high speed internet was available to the population.
Funnily enough some of those disagreeing with you, probably cheered on the Government for doing that, go figure. 
It wouldn't be a political bias would it?


----------



## rederob (12 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> At the beginning of our debate



In other words *no tax cuts are offered to manufacturers* as you claim.
Labor has a *proposal* that may or may not come into play, which would remove a tax liability from the vehicle importer, typically a distributor.
As such taxes are essentially built into a vehicle's sale price it is nearly always the consumer who pays.  A comparison is Trump's big lie about adding tariffs to some Chinese products, which simply made them more expensive to American consumers and were occasionally absorbed in part by importers to reduce price shocks.
For all intents and purposes the import tax is a zero sum game for manufacturers and does not change their profit margin.


----------



## JohnDe (12 April 2022)

rederob said:


> In other words


----------



## Value Collector (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Imagine better, if most of the charging is done in off peak times then off peak becomes peak.
> 
> Remember widespread uptake of EV across the entire population causes new excess demand for electricity that has never existed before and it's on top of the existing demand in the complete absence of EV  that will also increase.



There is basically two off peak periods, one in the middle of the night when the grid sits idle, that would be capable of charging cars, and the second period is in the middle of the day when their is excess solar.

Also, pretty much all week end is low demand, there is plenty of spare capacity.

But if we need more capacity over the next 20 years as evs are slowly introduced it will be added.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> There is basically two off peak periods, one in the middle of the night when the grid sits idle, that would be capable of charging cars, and the second period is in the middle of the day when their is excess solar.
> 
> Also, pretty much all week end is low demand, there is plenty of spare capacity.
> 
> But if we need more capacity over the next 20 years as evs are slowly introduced it will be added.



The problem that causes is two fold, firstly as the grid transitions more to renewables the off peak period will be supplied by renewable storage i.e batteries, pumped hydro etc, so unlike now where they want to keep fossil fueled generators on line for the morning peak and there is surplus power available, they actually wont want people charging overnight as that storage may be required the next day if there is low generation.
The second issue is during the day there is currently an excess of solar generation, as more and more grid sized batteries and pumped hydro facilities are installed, that excess power will be used to charge those first.
So as @Smurf1976 and I have said, what is currently the normal mode of grid operation will change considerably and also the way people are charged for using electricity will change also.


----------



## 3 hound (12 April 2022)

Starting to sound like a case of;

Global warming bad, electric vehicle good...end of plan.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Starting to sound like a case of;
> 
> Global warming bad, electric vehicle good...end of plan.



The big problem is, there are a lot more issues than just selling people electric cars, it's just the media don't talk about those other parts of the issue. 
And as usual the public hangs on the media's every word, as though it is cast in stone, when in actual fact the media is plasticine and bends with every article. 🤣


----------



## rederob (12 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


>




Your dishonesty does you no favours.
You made repeated claims that had no substance, lacked logic, and made claims about my posts which were patently false.
You seem clueless about how effective policies are necessary to drive the EV transition, and continued to confuse tax cuts with incentives.
I regret the time I wasted.


----------



## Value Collector (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The problem that causes is two fold, firstly as the grid transitions more to renewables the off peak period will be supplied by renewable storage i.e batteries, pumped hydro etc, so unlike now where they want to keep fossil fueled generators on line for the morning peak and there is surplus power available, they actually wont want people charging overnight as that storage may be required the next day if there is low generation.
> The second issue is during the day there is currently an excess of solar generation, as more and more grid sized batteries and pumped hydro facilities are installed, that excess power will be used to charge those first.
> So as @Smurf1976 and I have said, what is currently the normal mode of grid operation will change considerably and also the way people are charged for using electricity will change also.



We are going to have lots of wind generation that will be running through the night.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> We are going to have lots of wind generation that will be running through the night.



There will need to be if we are charging the E.V's with them, as @Smurf1976 has posted on numerous occasions, on the East coast very often low solar generation and low wind generation happen at the same time.
I'm all for the E.V revolution, just under no illusion that it isn't going to cause serious issues and using current grid dynamics as a guide to future grid dynamics IMO isn't accurate.


----------



## JohnDe (12 April 2022)

rederob said:


> I regret the time I wasted.




You sir rely on intimidation & harassment to smother the views of others. As you did with sptrawler and repeated with me.

So you read an article and now you know more than the rest of us "_Over the weekend I read an article about Australia's low EV take up rate. What we all know now is that it has everything to do with not being able to get your hands on one, unless you want the substandard MG. Labor, if they get into power, need to get our house in order so that we are no longer shunned by so many manufacturers, and finally get some real and decent choice of models and price ranges_."

Well I read several articles, that must make me a genius by your equation.

We are allowed our own views, to start calling one person unfriendly names says more about you than it does me. 

I am involved in the automotive industry and have owned an EV since July 2021. What I see Australia lacking is planned charging infrastructure. The people I talk to on the streets want an EV but first they want the confidence and knowledge that they can drive around Australia in the same way they can with their ICEV. 

You have let your one eyed politics cloud your limited knowledge of EV ownership, and listened to the managing directors of companies like VW with their newly found halo try to dictate to us. 

EVs are coming, there is no stopping them. 

Infrastructure is what we need




​


----------



## rederob (12 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> You sir rely on intimidation & harassment to smother the views of others. As you did with sptrawler and repeated with me.



As I did not understand many of your comments I questioned them.
For example, you made this point:


JohnDe said:


> My point is that I do not want tax dollars thrown at vehicle manufacturers so that people like us can buy a cheaper EV.



And when I asked "If that's the case, show where it is so," your said:


JohnDe said:


> I did, a direct quote from Albanese’s website.



After further querying you I discovered this was the direct quote:
"_a $50,000 model (such as the Nissan Leaf) will be more than $2,000 cheaper as a result of removing the import tariff_."

So your claim was *false*.  Zero tax dollars go to manufacturers.
On the other hand Albanese is correct in that if the importer also passes on the exemption then that car should be cheaper to buy. 
I previously pointed to other false claims you made, but rather than own them you sidestep them and now claim to be intimidated and harassed.  It's called the pot calling the kettle black, and it does not wash!


JohnDe said:


> We are allowed our own views, to start calling one person unfriendly names says more about you than it does me.



I have been pretty generous until now, but when people lie and refuse to acknowledge it, then I call them out.


JohnDe said:


> You have let your one eyed politics cloud your limited knowledge of EV ownership, and listened to the managing directors of companies like VW with their newly found halo try to dictate to us.



I have a very strong background in policy and analysis at public and private sector levels, and I do not support Labor's poor policies as they are, frankly, pathetic.  On the other hand I have been at pains to point out that our EV situation is the culmination of no plausible federal EV policies and a mish mash of State/Territory compensatory policies in lieu.

Unlike you, I don't rely on singular references to form a view, so your regular mentions of VW are totally subservient to the motor vehicle industry's views which I have both quoted from and linked.  So here's yet *another* quote from an industry commentator:
*"When it comes to distributing the limited supply of electric cars, global automotive giants are prioritising countries with stricter vehicle emissions mandates and generous tax incentives.*​*That means Australia is down the queue for electric car shipments compared to other countries such as Norway, the UK, China and the US."*​
I repeat that you and I share many common views on the EV front, but I have little respect for people that don't own their mistakes.
​


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

Nothing like good robust debate you guys, I'm sure everyone is getting a lot of great info through the cut and thrust.


----------



## rederob (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Nothing like good robust debate you guys, I'm sure everyone is getting a lot of great info through the cut and thrust.



What we have here is analogous to the fed's lack of national energy planning affecting what needs to be done, so the States are stepping in and tidying up their issues without necessarily considering the big picture.  It's not a recipe for disaster as such, but needs to be reined in and coordinated between all parties.

Back on topic, there has been a remedy I meant to post a lot earlier, but literally got a flat tyre (screw in the sidewall of the Pajero's big tyres) and $407 later was back on the road!
No price on this yet, but if you live in a unit, *here's *a solution:

I reckon the Chinese are already onto it so there's every chance a knockoff will be available for a lot less next year.
What the marketing blurb missed was how important this could be to those in OZ with range anxiety.  For that matter I can see every RAC/NRMA service vehicle packing one.
Additionally, the device looks like a fantastic picnic or camping accessory to power things you might not usually bring simply due to electricity constraints.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

rederob said:


> What we have here is analogous to the fed's lack of national energy planning affecting what needs to be done, so the States are stepping in and tidying up their issues without necessarily considering the big picture.  It's not a recipe for disaster as such, but needs to be reined in and coordinated between all parties.



The Feds have nothing to do with W.A's electrical system and that's the way we like it. 🤣
The W.A State government is installing charging infrastructure which is great, I can imagine if the Feds said you will put this in, they would be told to sod off.





__





						Media Statements - WA accelerates towards longest EV fast charging network
					






					www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au
				





Also what are the Feds going to do about what the manufacturers are going to supply, they haven't even standardised the equipment from manufacturer to manufacturer. Christ knows what you are suggesting? Maybe the Government just needs to make funds available so that the States can sort it out, because it the States who know their electrical systems the demographics, the distribution system, they just need the Feds to help supply funding.
Really how would the Feds have any idea, about what is required, from a State or manufacturers point of view? What big picture, they are an E.V they already have design rules for compliance.





__





						New funding for fast-charging stations for electric vehicles
					

A new fund will expand access to fast-charging stations for battery electric vehicles to help consumers transition to new vehicle technologies. Applications are open until 6 April.




					www.industry.gov.au
				












						Government announces funding of EV charging stations, no subsidies - Convenience & Impulse Retailing
					

Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced that the Federal Government will fund 50,000 charging stations for Australian households.




					www.c-store.com.au
				








__





						World leading electric vehicle to grid trial in ACT
					

ARENA has today announced $2.4 million in funding to ActewAGL to demonstrate V2G services in Australia.




					arena.gov.au


----------



## JohnDe (12 April 2022)

The issues with charging an EV when infrastructure is poor, check out the video at the 22:35 minute mark. Pretty much shows why building infrastructure should be the first priority


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The issues with charging an EV when infrastructure is poor, check out the video at the 22:35 minute mark. Pretty much shows why building infrastructure should be the first priority



No what we need is lots more cars queued up, then the charger fairy will come and kapow an extra charger appears. 🤣

We have a window of opportunity while manufacturers have supply issues, to get a lot of public charging infrastructure in, every spare dollar should be spent on it. Not on giving charity handouts to people who want an E.V, talk about being entitled, I want an E.V, can you give me $5k, so I can have a holiday as well. I mean I am helping the poor people by not polluting their air. 🥳
The one good thing is, it doesn't matter which side of politics wins the election, the change over to E.V's will happen.
As @Smurf says the fleet turns over in about 20 years, by then manufacturers wont be supporting  ICE engines and parts will become a huge issue.
I went to a mates funeral last Monday and drove through an area that I used to live in, but hadn't been through there for about 20 years, there used to be a really big engine reconditioning business on a busy corner, it is now obviously closed.
I wonder how many car engine reconditioners are still in business these days, I bet there isn't many.
The old days of ripping out a motor, stripping it, reboring it and regrinding the crank to fit new big ends and mains are long gone.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> it’s not that big of a deal to install some power points or chargers into apartment building car parks



From a technical perspective fully agree.

BUT there is a thing known as a "Body Corporate" aka "Owners Corporation" and various other terms.

Suffice to say mere mention of those terms to anyone enthusiastic about energy efficiency and so on is a bit like saying "fast food" to a nutritionist. They'll be immediately suspicious and on guard for good reason - the reputation is of finding every possible way to obstruct anything relating to energy efficiency and so on and that problem goes back at least to the 1980's.

OK, there's probably some good ones but there's a lot that seem to exist for the sole purpose of thwarting progress. Heck some even arc up about washing being hung up to dry.  

So whilst I fully agree in a technical sense, I can see many running into problems in practice indeed the mainstream media ran such a story just last week:









						Power struggle: Doctor forced to sell electric car after his building denied access to power point
					

As a doctor regularly treating patients suffering the ill effects of floods, heat and bushfires, Dr Akhil Gupta is eager not to contribute to climate change himself.




					www.smh.com.au
				




Personally well it has long been my view that the states need to legislate to remove the power of these mobs and that's putting it rather politely.....


----------



## rederob (12 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Also what are the Feds going to do about what the manufacturers are going to supply, they haven't even standardised the equipment from manufacturer to manufacturer.



The feds are responsible for energy policy.  Manufacturers are not part of the equation!
Are you lost between Perth and Mandurah?


sptrawler said:


> Maybe the Government just needs to make funds available so that the States can sort it out, because it the States who know their electrical systems the demographics, the distribution system, they just need the Feds to help supply funding.



What are you talking about?  The charging network or something else?


sptrawler said:


> What big picture, they are an E.V they already have design rules for compliance.



I have no idea what you are rabbiting on about!
The States do not control federal policies relating to vehicle emissions or taxes.  Those policies affect the inflow of EVs, which in turn impact the rollout of EV infrastructure.  That's the big picture!
Most States and Territories have stepped in to incentivise EV adoption, as that just happens to be a key jigsaw piece that fits into the larger picture which includes achieving net zero CO2 emissions, which is something else the feds don't understand.


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

rederob said:


> The feds are responsible for energy policy.  Manufacturers are not part of the equation!
> Are you lost between Perth and Mandurah?



I doubt they have any say in the way Verve energy run the W.A grid.



rederob said:


> What are you talking about?  The charging network or something else?



Of course



rederob said:


> I have no idea what you are rabbiting on about!
> The States do not control federal policies relating to vehicle emissions or taxes.  Those policies affect the inflow of EVs, which in turn impact the rollout of EV infrastructure.  That's the big picture!
> Most States and Territories have stepped in to incentivise EV adoption, as that just happens to be a key jigsaw piece that fits into the larger picture which includes achieving net zero CO2 emissions, which is something else the feds don't understand.



As you and I know the vehicle emission regulations follow the EU standards, we don't invent ones ourselves. 
The inflow of E.V is limited by supply issues as you and I also know, they can give you $50k you will still have to wait for your car, so throwing money at people is just a taxpayer funded easter hamper for the rich dudes, you will have to wait till Albo gets in for that.  
I'm ever hopeful, mine isn't due for another 4 months.🥳


----------



## sptrawler (12 April 2022)

The new car supply issue to continue for a long time yet, lets get the incentives going, if you have to wait you might as well get a prize.  🤣 








						Semiconductor shortage to last two more years, automotive giant claims
					

An executive at one of the world's biggest car makers has revealed a grim outlook for new car supply over the next 24 months.




					www.drive.com.au
				



While it was originally deemed to be a relatively short-term inconvenience, car makers are now preparing customers for the possibility extended wait times could remain for some time.
"The structural undersupply will likely only resolve itself in 2024,” Arno Antlitz, chief financial officer of Volkswagen, told German outlet_ Boersen-Zeitung _over the weekend.

"Only those who can map out their battery supply chain have the advantage at scaling in electromobility. Securing the supply chain comes with that.”
Less than a day later BMW CEO Oliver Zipse told newspaper _Neue Zuercher Zeitung_: "I expect us to start seeing improvements at the latest next year, but we will still have to deal with a fundamental shortage in 2023."

Supply of new cars in Australia has dropped significantly over the past two years, while prices and wait times have steadily ballooned over the same period.


----------



## Smurf1976 (12 April 2022)

rederob said:


> The States do not control federal policies relating to vehicle emissions or taxes.



Where it does get complex is when a state decides to impose a tax on a particular type of vehicle on the basis that it's not contributing enough to _federal_ taxation revenue.

That idea would seem incredibly far fetched if not for it having actually been done.


----------



## Value Collector (13 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> It's called loving life, some go on ocean cruises, some buy lots of shoes and pretty clothes, I choose to fang it to over the dunes to my favourite fishing spots. You have your games, I have mine.
> 
> What's even the point of investments and wealth creation if all you use it for is to see a graph sloping upwards on a computer screen.
> 
> Sounds like you need to reevaluate your life bro.




If under powered Diesel engines is what you like, go for it, but Just like the V8 street car guys have learned over the last few years, they have nothing compared to their electric competitors when it comes to performance, it’s only the nostalgia for loud engines that will keep V8’s on the road, even a V8 super car can’t match the acceleration of a street legal off the shelf Tesla.

Give it a few years and I think you will find electric four wheel drives are a lot more fun to fang it in. 

————————
What’s the point of my wealth creation you ask? For me it’s about being able to do what ever I want to do, which is normally international travel a few times a year, and any other bells and whistles I like without worrying about money or whether a boss will give me time off work, for me cars are just a practical Item.


----------



## 3 hound (13 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> What’s the point of my wealth creation you ask? For me it’s about being able to do what ever I want to do, which is normally international travel a few times a year, and any other bells and whistles I like without worrying about money or whether a boss will give me time off work, for me cars are just a practical Item.




Your one international travel trip does more harm to the environment than a year's worth of my trips to the beach, you dirty emitter - HOW DARE YOU.




Value Collector said:


> t’s only the nostalgia for loud engines that will keep V8’s on the road, even a V8 super car can’t match the acceleration of a street legal off the shelf Tesla.





No the V8 diesel is to keep me OFF the road where your "off the shelf Tesla" can not even go let alone perform.

And no dude I do not want high acceleration, I want the opposite you are clueless on what you post about.

How do you propose I charge my electric 4wd when I am 500 miles from the nearest power point. Carry two acres worth solar panels on the roof rack??


----------



## Value Collector (13 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> Your one international travel trip does more harm to the environment than a year's worth of my trips to the beach, you dirty emitter - HOW DARE YOU.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I actually did the math a while back, and my portion of the fuel used in the plane is less than what an average person uses each year in their car, so by having an EV I still reduce my total emissions even accounting for my flights.

But your argument is bunk anyway, because obviously petrol and diesel car owners fly too, so them switching to an EV would be reducing emissions, even though they continue to fly.

Also, I never claimed my life style was carbon neutral, but of course driving a solar powered car reduces my total emissions compared to if I drove a petrol one, and when lower emissions flights are available I will take advantage of the tech too, it’s not about being perfect it’s about lowering your emissions where you can.

——————
We have been through the “what about if I am 500miles from a charger” argument on here before, There are EV four wheel drives coming out with 800 kms of range, and I am sure that will be more than enough for you.

But as I said I am fine will you making extra donations to my investment portfolio.


----------



## rederob (13 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I doubt they have any say in the way Verve energy run the W.A grid.



I doubt they know where Western Australia is!


sptrawler said:


> Of course



Of course what?
Or was that off course?
It's 2022 and EVs have been around for some years, while EV demand growth was known to be something that had to be planned for.  So in late 2021 we finally get a national *Future Fuels and Vehicles Strategy* which receives a paltry sum to fund a number of initiatives.  It's been regarded as too little too late by just about every *industry *commentator, eg
*"Car industry slams Government's EV strategy for lacking incentives and targets"*​


sptrawler said:


> As you and I know the vehicle emission regulations follow the EU standards, we don't invent ones ourselves.



???
Actually we can determine what our standards should be, but *we won't even sign up to Euro 6*:
*"More than 80 per cent of the global car market now follows 'Euro 6' vehicle emission standards, including Europe, the United States, Japan, Korea, China, India and Mexico.*​*But Australia has resisted signing up to the standards, which would require more stringent restrictions on pollutants in petrol, and require new cars to emit far less particulate matter than currently allowed."*​You are renown for quoting the media all the time, so have you missed this topic - a topic I have repeated and linked to in so many replies across the last few pages in this thread!  Here's another one:
*FFS: Coalition EV policy fizzles out with no grand plan, and no emissions limits*​


sptrawler said:


> The inflow of E.V is limited by supply issues as you and I also know, '''



Indeed it is, yet across the ditch a very small and more distant nation to vehicle manufacturers with a tiny car market has 3 times our EV penetration.  It's not rocket science working out why.


sptrawler said:


> ... they can give you $50k you will still have to wait for your car, so throwing money at people is just a taxpayer funded easter hamper for the rich dudes,



I have never favoured incentives benefiting the wealthy, but the problem became a chicken and egg one for States and Territories wanting to incentivise take-up.  Ay the time most incentives were being formulated there were few EVs priced under $60k and Teslas represented the bulk of potential  supply.  State leaders keen to show their green car credentials via incentivisation could hardly say at the time they would be for cars under $50k as they would have been laughed at.  Although MsGowan has been late to the party and could say WA will rebate EVs under $40k, and work off the "Field of Dreams" principle.

Getting back to the point about our charging network, we therefore have the less well-off rightly claiming that public network funding panders to the wealthy.  Fortunately Tesla can say they are part of the solution rather than the problem.  But as @JohnDe notes, why aren't we using their expertise or at least their model so that some percentage of any public funding is clawed back from every EV sold.   


sptrawler said:


> you will have to wait till Albo gets in for that.



Shorten the odds?


sptrawler said:


> I'm ever hopeful, mine isn't due for another 4 months.🥳



I am thinking of putting mine up for sale on Ebay for the same price as I am paying, and pocketing the rebate as a difference.  Presently have 5 cars on the block and not enough garage space!


----------



## 3 hound (13 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I actually did the math a while back, and my portion of the fuel used in the plane is less than what an average person uses each year in their car, so by having an EV I still reduce my total emissions even accounting for my flights.
> 
> But your argument is bunk anyway, because obviously petrol and diesel car owners fly too, so them switching to an EV would be reducing emissions, even though they continue to fly.
> 
> ...




I don't fly ever, I only use my 4wd for rare, occasional trips not all year and 800 km's is nowhere near enough. Your attempt to make my post look like bunk ended up being bunk.

You are a dirty emitter - HOW DARE YOU.


----------



## rederob (13 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Where it does get complex is when a state decides to impose a tax on a particular type of vehicle on the basis that it's not contributing enough to _federal_ taxation revenue.
> 
> That idea would seem incredibly far fetched if not for it having actually been done.



"*Complex*"?
I prefer *irrational*.
One nation with Hansonite ONE NATION EV policies!  
Apologies, they have no EV policies.
Oh, I was right after all.


----------



## JohnDe (13 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The new car supply issue to continue for a long time yet, lets get the incentives going, if you have to wait you might as well get a prize.  🤣
> 
> 
> Supply of new cars in Australia has dropped significantly over the past two years, while prices and wait times have steadily ballooned over the same period.




It gets better. The next possible Prime Minister doesn't bother to monitor the cash rate and unemployment levels,  hasn't driven an EV for everyday travel and holidaying, and so doesn't know the challenges of charging, but wants to give a tax break on EVs because somehow that will increase the numbers when there is a world shortage.

They call it a "discount". People that can afford a new EV get this discount, and at the same time tax revenue is reduced but spending goes up. Where will that lost tax revenue come from? Don't worry about that, or the cash rate. Not now anyway, we'll all find out after the election.

My guess is that if they are going to cut taxes for EVs to try and magically increase the numbers, they're also going to make it harder to buy ICEVs by adding or increasing a tax. I could be wrong, but we'll see soon.




> A Labor Government will introduce an Electric Car Discount – to make electric cars cheaper so that more families who want them can afford them, and to reduce emissions.​​As part of the Discount, Labor will exempt many electric cars from:​​Import tariffs – a 5 per cent tax on some imported electric cars; and​Fringe benefits tax – a 47 per cent tax on electric cars that are provided through work for private use.​


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> It gets better. The next possible Prime Minister doesn't bother to monitor the cash rate and unemployment levels,  hasn't driven an EV for everyday travel and holidaying, and so doesn't know the challenges of charging, but wants to give a tax break on EVs because somehow that will increase the numbers when there is a world shortage.
> 
> They call it a "discount". People that can afford a new EV get this discount, and at the same time tax revenue is reduced but spending goes up. Where will that lost tax revenue come from? Don't worry about that, or the cash rate. Not now anyway, we'll all find out after the election.
> 
> My guess is that if they are going to cut taxes for EVs to try and magically increase the numbers, they're also going to make it harder to buy ICEVs by adding or increasing a tax. I could be wrong, but we'll see soon.



Yep rolling out the 'magic pudding' that keeps on giving. 🤣


----------



## rederob (13 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> ..., but wants to give a tax break on EVs because somehow that will increase the numbers when there is a world shortage.



There is *no *world shortage of EVs.  There is a shortage of EVs coming into Australia and there is a huge shortage of best in class EVs.
I can go to London and buy an EV tomorrow and drive it away.
It won't be one of the high demand or betterEVs, but it will be an EV nevertheless:
*Electric cars you can buy right **NOW*​MG 5 EV​MG ZS EV​Nissan Leaf​Renault Zoe​Vauxhall Corsa-e​Vauxhall Mokka-e​Mazda MX-30​BMW i3​Audi e-tron​Kia e-Niro​Kia Soul​Hyundai Ioniq (but not the IONIQ5!)​​I could do the same in China, but have the choice of over a hundred models.


JohnDe said:


> My guess is that if they are going to cut taxes for EVs to try and magically increase the numbers, they're also going to make it harder to buy ICEVs by adding or increasing a tax. I could be wrong, but we'll see soon.



They could just cut the  *Fuel Tax Credit Scheme*, better known as the diesel fuel rebate, a point made many times in this thread:
*"For the 2021-22 year, Fuel Tax Credits will cost the Government a hefty $8 billion—the biggest fossil fuel subsidy in Australia. By 2024-25 it is estimated to grow to 9.8 billion. In fact, the Fuel Tax Credit Scheme cost the Commonwealth Government more than spending on the Australian Army or the Royal Australian Airforce capabilities and earned a spot in the budget’s Top 20 most expensive programs."*​
You have to wonder why this relic of a program was not scrapped, or at least fine tuned, years ago.  But then again you only need to look at the *political party* funding base to see where the problem lies.


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2022)

The U.K supercharges E.V charging.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-to-announce-electric-vehicle-revolution


----------



## JohnDe (13 April 2022)

31.3.2022
*Why do electric cars have such long waiting lists?*​Good question. Electric car buyers  are facing longer than normal waiting times for a couple of key reasons - demand and supply. In some cases there is a perfect storm of increased demand with restricted supply, which is causing year-long waiting lists for comparatively humble models like the Volkswagen ID.3.

First, let's look at demand. *Kia, for example, says it is not experiencing delays in production and is actually delivering the cars it was supposed to, but huge demand for models like the EV6 means the queue to get one is now up to 10 months long.*

The second factor - supply constraints - is caused by a global shortage of parts, mainly semiconductor chips. These tiny devices are found in everything from phones to electric toothbrushes and, put simply, they can't be made fast enough. The pandemic saw a massive surge in orders for laptops and printers as the global population started working remotely. This wiped out existing stocks and meant that factories around the world were asked to produce more. Except they couldn't because many were forced to close because of the pandemic. Production is now back to normal now, but industry experts reckon it could be another 10 months before supply meets demand. 

Some car component factories are also located in Ukraine which has caused supply issues for obvious reasons. 

*How long will you need to wait?*​Porsche Taycan - 6-18 months (depending on model)
SKODA Enyaq iV - 12 months +
Mini Electric - 6 months
Tesla Model S or X - late 2023
Ford Mustang Mach E - 8 months +
BMW i4 or iX - 6 months
Volkswagen ID3 or ID4 - 6-12 months
Kia EV6 - 9 -10 months (GT-Line and S, slightly less for ‘Air’)
Cupra Born - 6 months
Hyundai IONIQ5 - 4-6 months
Peugeot e208 - 4-6 months (for some models)
Lexus UX300e - 4 months
Jaguar iPace - 4 months

For those of us wanting an electric car sooner rather than later, this doesn't make for great reading. But, if you're prepared to be flexible about the exact model of car, there are quicker ways to switch to electric. For example, Vauxhall has selected Corsa e and Mokka e models in stock, which should only take about 10 weeks. Even a specific order will only take 3-4 months. Kia can also deliver you a Soul or e-Niro in as little as 12 weeks - although the e-Niro is due for replacement in summer with the new Niro EV, so there’s an element of winding down on orders for the current model.

Tesla appears to have negotiated the chip crisis with remarkable ease. Despite having full order books for its Model 3 and Model Y, the American brand has been delivering cars in huge quantities. Tesla is also one of the only brands to show on its order pages when delivery can be expected. At the time of writing, the Model Y comes with an 8 week waiting time, which is impressive. The Model 3 can be ordered for delivery in August. That said, buyers looking at the new Model S Plaid or Model X won't be so fortunate: these two models currently aren’t listed as for sale in the UK as there is no visibility on production times.

Another way to get an electric car more quickly is to take a look at slightly older models that have less demand, such as the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe. You may not be buying the very latest design, but it does mean you get to switch to electric without the wait. And if you can be flexible on colour and trim, you can find yourself zooming up the waiting list. Dealers often have cancelled orders, so it's always worth putting a call in to see what's available.


----------



## Value Collector (13 April 2022)

3 hound said:


> I don't fly ever, I only use my 4wd for rare, occasional trips not all year and 800 km's is nowhere near enough. Your attempt to make my post look like bunk ended up being bunk.
> 
> You are a dirty emitter - HOW DARE YOU.



I don’t care how much you fly, and as I have said multiple times I don’t care what you drive, I actually thanked you for you contributions to my investment portfolio and the additional taxes you pay.

So I am not sure why you are mad, I have just been pointing out the benefits of EV’s, and pointing out your misconceptions.

Out of interest, where in the last couple of years have you driven that was 500 miles from a power point?


----------



## mullokintyre (13 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> 31.3.2022
> *Why do electric cars have such long waiting lists?*​Good question. Electric car buyers  are facing longer than normal waiting times for a couple of key reasons - demand and supply. In some cases there is a perfect storm of increased demand with restricted supply, which is causing year-long waiting lists for comparatively humble models like the Volkswagen ID.3.
> 
> First, let's look at demand. *Kia, for example, says it is not experiencing delays in production and is actually delivering the cars it was supposed to, but huge demand for models like the EV6 means the queue to get one is now up to 10 months long.*
> ...



The only problem with the above is that it is a UK site and some of the cars mentioned are not even available in OZ, and the waiting times are significantly different. For instance, Hyundai has closed the order books on the IONIQ5 as it has allocated three years worth of stock.
Mick


----------



## rederob (13 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> 31.3.2022
> *Why do electric cars have such long waiting lists?*​Good question. Electric car buyers  are facing longer than normal waiting times for a couple of key reasons - demand and supply. In some cases there is a perfect storm of increased demand with restricted supply, which is causing year-long waiting lists for comparatively humble models like the Volkswagen ID.3.
> 
> First, let's look at demand. *Kia, for example, says it is not experiencing delays in production and is actually delivering the cars it was supposed to, but huge demand for models like the EV6 means the queue to get one is now up to 10 months long.*
> ...



I think you should have indicated that very few of those cars named above will ever be made available in Australia, so the indicated wait times are mostly irrelevant. 
Also, the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 are reliant on successful online bidding, so it may be years before anyone can successfully order one.


----------



## JohnDe (13 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The only problem with the above is that it is a UK site and some of the cars mentioned are not even available in OZ, and the waiting times are significantly different. For instance, Hyundai has closed the order books on the IONIQ5 as it has allocated three years worth of stock.
> Mick




I was pointing out that there is a *world shortage* of EVs, due to various reasons -  global shortage of parts, mainly semiconductor chips, component factories are also located in Ukraine.

With Europe having a population of 746.4 million, China 1.402 billion and the USA 329.5 million, they are always going to get first pick of a product in short supply from their closely positioned factories.


----------



## rederob (13 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I was pointing out that there is a *world shortage* of EVs, due to various reasons -  global shortage of parts, mainly semiconductor chips, component factories are also located in Ukraine.
> 
> With Europe having a population of 746.4 million, China 1.402 billion and the USA 329.5 million, they are always going to get first pick of a product in short supply from their closely positioned factories.



And I was pointing out that is not the case.
There is a global supply chain issue for lots of products including ICEVs and EVs, but you can still buy both types of vehicles, but not always what you want unless you are prepared to wait.
Both Europe and America could ship in any number of mid range Chinese EVs if they wanted to, but they don't need to.  The waiting times are confined to the best EVs because there are literally hundreds of millions of people who can afford them and tens of millions wanting them sooner rather than later.  There is every likelihood that this equation will be no different in 3 years times as demand for the newest and best EVs will be an ongoing issue and is unlikely to be met until EV production lines for associated manufacturers can scale up.  Let's face it, Telsa demand remains through the roof despite proposing to knock out around 2 million units this year after adding 3 more gigafactories.


----------



## JohnDe (13 April 2022)

APR 11, 2022​​*NIO, Inc.* NIO  recently stated that it has suspended vehicle production due to a supply chain hiatus in various cities across the country caused by the pandemic.​​The China-based electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer’s factories, test sites and interactive centers are located in Shanghai, and the city is presently facing another onslaught of the virus. To curb the spread, Shanghai has re-imposed lockdown and restrictions, severely affecting every aspect of the supply chain.​​NIO’s supplier partners in other cities like Jilin and Jiangsu have been halting production since March and are yet to recover. In light of this, the company has postponed deliveries of EVs to customers and will jointly work with suppliers to clear the bottlenecks and restart operations as soon as possible.​​Nonetheless, chip concerns are not likely to abate anytime soon and might lead to revenue loss for the firm. Further, high prices of raw materials like aluminum and copper are expected to clip gross margins.​​Recently, *Toyota Motor* TM also announced that it is temporarily suspending operations at a joint venture plant with FAW group in Changchun in China after a lockdown was imposed in the city last week due to a surge in COVID-19 infections. Toyota, in January, had halted activities at a joint venture plant in Tianjin, China, following the onslaught of the Omicron variant in the city.​​Another auto giant, *Volkswagen AG* VWAGY, suspended part of its operations in China amid government restrictions to combat the largest COVID-19 outbreak in the country in two years. Volkswagen also runs a joint venture operation with FAW, and has suspended production at its vehicle and component plants for a short duration.​


			https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/nio-halts-ev-deliveries-in-china-over-covid-led-supply-issues


----------



## rederob (13 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> APR 11, 2022​​*NIO, Inc.* NIO  recently stated that it has suspended vehicle production due to a supply chain hiatus in various cities across the country caused by the pandemic.​​The China-based electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer’s factories, test sites and interactive centers are located in Shanghai, and the city is presently facing another onslaught of the virus. To curb the spread, Shanghai has re-imposed lockdown and restrictions, severely affecting every aspect of the supply chain.​​NIO’s supplier partners in other cities like Jilin and Jiangsu have been halting production since March and are yet to recover. In light of this, the company has postponed deliveries of EVs to customers and will jointly work with suppliers to clear the bottlenecks and restart operations as soon as possible.​​Nonetheless, chip concerns are not likely to abate anytime soon and might lead to revenue loss for the firm. Further, high prices of raw materials like aluminum and copper are expected to clip gross margins.​​Recently, *Toyota Motor* TM also announced that it is temporarily suspending operations at a joint venture plant with FAW group in Changchun in China after a lockdown was imposed in the city last week due to a surge in COVID-19 infections. Toyota, in January, had halted activities at a joint venture plant in Tianjin, China, following the onslaught of the Omicron variant in the city.​​Another auto giant, *Volkswagen AG* VWAGY, suspended part of its operations in China amid government restrictions to combat the largest COVID-19 outbreak in the country in two years. Volkswagen also runs a joint venture operation with FAW, and has suspended production at its vehicle and component plants for a short duration.​
> 
> 
> https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/nio-halts-ev-deliveries-in-china-over-covid-led-supply-issues



You keep posting about lots of EVs not available in Australia.  
Should I link to the many American made EVs that are also not coming?
Or is that not especially helpful?

Yes, since 2020 there has been a constant stream of supply chain issues, and these affect lots of products.  But if they are not slated to come here then it's hardly worth a mention.


----------



## Value Collector (13 April 2022)

@Smurf1976
Funny thing just happened, you mentioned that you don’t see many Excels around anymore despite that they were everywhere not many years ago, Well I just saw one and Rene weed your comment, then realised it was broken down being helped by road side assistance, I instantly laughed as I realised even it’s days must be numbered.


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2022)

Took the Ionic 5 for a run today, was it nice, yes, would I buy it probably not. It used about 19Kw/100klm, said I had 340 klm of range at the start when I worked it out the actual range I had it would have been 310klm. If I had actually had 340 I would have had about 100kl left, it said I had just under 70 left. 90% was on the highway at 110kl/hr.
I didn't like the instrument panel, seats were comfortable, very quiet around town, a similar noise level to the Jeep on the highway mainly tire noise, the lane assist would end up driving me mad so i would have to learn how to switch that off.
Interesting day, I think for me the Kona fits better because it is just like getting into an Ice car so it's familiar, the Ionic was a bit like driving an arcade machine, maybe I'm showing my age.


----------



## mullokintyre (13 April 2022)

Sptrawler,  what are they like to get into?
One of the problems I have with an artificial hip, an artificial knee and soon to get a second  artificial hip, getting in and out of cars is a bit of an effort. Got out of the Imprezza I drove cos i had to get down INTO it, whereas my Ranger ute I climb up via the side steps. The  wife's CX5 
allows me to just slide my fat ar$e into it quite easily.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (13 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Sptrawler,  what are they like to get into?
> One of the problems I have with an artificial hip, an artificial knee and soon to get a second  artificial hip, getting in and out of cars is a bit of an effort. Got out of the Imprezza I drove cos i had to get down INTO it, whereas my Ranger ute I climb up via the side steps. The  wife's CX5
> allows me to just slide my fat ar$e into it quite easily.
> Mick



The seat height is good, Ive got a replaced right hip and right knee, also recovering from a broken right tibia, so I know what you are talking about that is the reason I didnt get the Tesla 3.
The only issue with the Ionic in that regard is there is a lip below the door, that the back of your calf touches when you stand up, that may be an issue in winter when there is dirt and crap on there, it may well put a mark on the back of your pants, other than that it is very easy to get in and out of. It is a lot bigger car in the flesh, than in the pictures.


----------



## rederob (14 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> it may well put a mark on the back of your pants, other than that it is very easy to get in and out of. It is a lot bigger car in the flesh, than in the pictures.



Have you tried adjusting your screen size?


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Where it does get complex is when a state decides to impose a tax on a particular type of vehicle on the basis that it's not contributing enough to _federal_ taxation revenue.
> 
> That idea would seem incredibly far fetched if not for it having actually been done.



I assume you are talking about the State Governments putting a tax on E.V's and saying it covers the loss of fuel excise, when in fact fuel excise is a Federal tax.
The one thing I do like about that @Smurf1976 I would prefer them to tax E.V's at a State level, as they are paying incentives on a State basis, therefore the State taxpayers are paying their own incentives and paying their own running cost taxes.

What would annoy me would be if the Feds gave taxpayer incentives to buy E.V's, the higher populated East coast areas would benefit far more than regional and remote areas.
At the moment E.V's are not practical for regional areas and I can say that for a fact, I took one for a run yesterday one of the best E.V's available, on the way back we pulled into the" Charge Fox" charger at Bunbury and it wouldn't work.
So if I was going to Perth it would have been touch and go, or I would have had to risk a detour and hope the one at Harvey was working. As I was only going to Mandurah it didn't matter.

Going up the West Coast on the "charge fox" map there isn't one in Geraldton so you are looking at 700kl between Lancelin and Denham, the next charge fox after that is Broome, on the great northern highway from Perth to Port Headland there are no charge fox outlets.

The Northern Territory doesn't appear to have any charge fox outlets and South Australia seems to only have them in Adelaide's immediate  vicinity.

So if the Federal Government gave incentives, the taxpayers in the areas mentioned would be subsidising the East Coast residents, who just happen to be the ones who always seem to be bleating "woe is me, I want more", like a broken record. 🤣


----------



## Value Collector (14 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I assume you are talking about the State Governments putting a tax on E.V's and saying it covers the loss of fuel excise, when in fact fuel excise is a Federal tax.
> The one thing I do like about that @Smurf1976 I would prefer them to tax E.V's at a State level, as they are paying incentives on a State basis, therefore the State taxpayers are paying their own incentives and paying their own running cost taxes.
> 
> What would annoy me would be if the Feds gave taxpayer incentives to buy E.V's, the higher populated East coast areas would benefit far more than regional and remote areas.
> ...



Just out of interest, are you a member of charge fox?

Because I saw a guy in an electric mini one day trying to use the charge fox charger and looking very frustrated so I went to try and help him and it turned out he wasn’t a member, I got him to download the app and sign up and we got it working for him though.

They are a confusing charger, you have to do all the steps in order otherwise it doesn’t work, hence why I drive past them normally and use the Tesla ones, even though charge fox is normally half the price.


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Just out of interest, are you a member of charge fox?
> 
> Because I saw a guy in an electric mini one day trying to use the charge fox charger and looking very frustrated so I went to try and help him and it turned out he wasn’t a member, I got him to download the app and sign up and we got it working for him though.
> 
> They are a confusing charger, you have to do all the steps in order otherwise it doesn’t work, hence why I drive past them normally and use the Tesla ones, even though charge fox is normally half the price.



Yes I plugged it in ok, the rfid card read and said charging had started, it was showing 45%.
We went off to get a coffee then 20 minutes later walked back to the car, it was still showing 45% and said finished charging. 
I looked in the car on the dashboard it said the plug isn't in incorrectly, so removed it a re set the whole process a couple of times, same result.
Decided I have enough to get back anyway, so gave it away and left, the mate wasn't happy he was stressing all the way back home.   🤣


----------



## Value Collector (14 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I plugged it in ok, the rfid card read and said charging had started, it was showing 45%.
> We went off to get a coffee then 20 minutes later walked back to the car, it was still showing 45% and said finished charging.
> I looked in the car on the dashboard it said the plug isn't in incorrectly, so removed it a re set the whole process a couple of times, same result.
> Decided I have enough to get back anyway, so gave it away and left, the mate wasn't happy he was stressing all the way back home.   🤣



Normally you have to do the following

1, open the app
2, select which location you are at
3, choose which outlet you are using.
4, plug in.

The rfid reader doesn’t seem to do anything from my experience, you need to use the app, that’s how I got it working for the guy in the mini.

I understand it’s a stupid process, you should be able to just wave your credit card and start filling, but it doesn’t seem to work that way, you need to sign up.


----------



## JohnDe (14 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Normally you have to do the following
> 
> 1, open the app
> 2, select which location you are at
> ...




What a hassle. 

This is why infrastructure should be the first priority. Get the charging network sorted, consult Tesla and get it working so it's as easy as filling up with fuel. Or even easier, like the Tesla network is.


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Normally you have to do the following
> 
> 1, open the app
> 2, select which location you are at
> ...



If you have a charge fox rfid card, which is similar to and looks just like a credit card, you just plug in, then it asks you to tap the rfid card on the touch pad and off it goes.


----------



## Value Collector (14 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If you have a charge fox rfid card, which is similar to and looks just like a credit card, you just plug in, then it asks you to tap the rfid card on the touch pad and off it goes.



Ok, I didn’t know they existed, they should just make it a credit card reader.

Also, though does the car you had have an app on your phone? Because with Tesla you can check your Tesla app and see your car charging and what level it’s at, it will also notify you if charging stops for some reason, (not that it ever does stop on the Tesla chargers)


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2022)

No I borrowed the car off a mate and he gave me his charge fox card, to take with me.
On the front of the charge fox charger, there is a white square with a hand holding a credit card, it is a tap and go pad.


Swipe your Chargefox RFID card on the station you wish to use.
If using your own cable, connect it to the station first.
Plug the cable into your car and start charging.
Swipe the same RFID card on the station to stop charging.
Unplug the cable.
Unplug your cable and shut the port cover securely.


----------



## Value Collector (14 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> No I borrowed the car off a mate and he gave me his charge fox card, to take with me.
> On the front of the charge fox charger, there is a white square with a hand holding a credit card, it is a tap and go pad.
> 
> 
> ...




In post 5984, you mentioned you plugged in first then tried to swipe, I wonder if the issue was something simple like that.

 Not trying to be pedantic, I just know in the two times I have used charge fox I have had trouble getting the power flowing because it seems you have to do things in the exact steps, eg you have to plug in at the right step, otherwise it seems to not work until you get it right.

I am sure if I used it regularly, I wouldn’t have trouble, but given I use them like once a year, I always have struggle for 2 mins or so trying to get it flowing, hence why I drive past them.

I have one near my house, I might give it another go soon.


----------



## sptrawler (14 April 2022)

It had the steps that light up in sequence.
The last step, charging started lit up.
Next time when Im in less of a hurry, I will spend more time checking it out.
I think it was a 100Kw fast charger so only three steps.


----------



## mullokintyre (15 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Took the Ionic 5 for a run today, was it nice, yes, would I buy it probably not. It used about 19Kw/100klm, said I had 340 klm of range at the start when I worked it out the actual range I had it would have been 310klm. If I had actually had 340 I would have had about 100kl left, it said I had just under 70 left. 90% was on the highway at 110kl/hr.
> I didn't like the instrument panel, seats were comfortable, very quiet around town, a similar noise level to the Jeep on the highway mainly tire noise, the lane assist would end up driving me mad so i would have to learn how to switch that off.
> Interesting day, I think for me the Kona fits better because it is just like getting into an Ice car so it's familiar, the Ionic was a bit like driving an arcade machine, maybe I'm showing my age.



according to top electric suv ,  Hyundai are about to release the Ioniq 6 towards the end of the month.
It will be more sedan like rather than a SUV.
With a bit of luck, it will mean that the Ioniq 5 will become less in demand and leave a few more to be exported to OZ.
Mick


----------



## mullokintyre (19 April 2022)

From  Eletric vehicles.com


> Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe warned on Monday April 18 that the shortage of electric vehicles batteries can affect the auto industry soon being a challenge that “could surpass the current computer-chip shortage”. Auto makers have been facing limited supplies of raw materials like cobalt, lithium and nickel that are fundamental when making a battery. As reported by WSJ, Rivian’s CEO told reporters last week:
> 
> Put very simply, all the world’s cell production combined represents well under 10% of what we will need in 10 years. .. Meaning, 90% to 95% of the supply chain does not exist.
> Rivian Automotive Inc. Chief Executive RJ Scaringe
> “We don’t have a demand challenge at all. We have a ‘can we create enough vehicles’ challenge?” Scaringe told CNBC, “We have a supply chain problem. It’s frustrating, but we’re going to get through that.” Although, Rivian’s CEO said the company is “really confident” it can produce a total of 25,000 vehicles in 2022.



Rivian will most likely struggle to reach its production targets, small though they may be.
The larger players will hog the EV battery market leaving precious little for the smaller players, no matter how good their vehicles might be.


----------



## mullokintyre (19 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> according to top electric suv ,  Hyundai are about to release the Ioniq 6 towards the end of the month.
> It will be more sedan like rather than a SUV.
> With a bit of luck, it will mean that the Ioniq 5 will become less in demand and leave a few more to be exported to OZ.
> Mick



Have heard  of a few people complaining about issues with coolant in Hyundais cars.
It seems that the Coolant used to keep the battery controller and other electronics cool is a special variant, nothing the green or orange stuff we pour into radiators in ICE vehicles. It has tended to crystallise, and throw up warning lights putting the vehicles in limp mode.
Dealers are  replacing the cooling pumps as well as the coolant. One guy reckons he has had the same issue three times since he got his IONIQ at Christmas.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (19 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Have heard  of a few people complaining about issues with coolant in Hyundais cars.
> It seems that the Coolant used to keep the battery controller and other electronics cool is a special variant, nothing the green or orange stuff we pour into radiators in ICE vehicles. It has tended to crystallise, and throw up warning lights putting the vehicles in limp mode.
> Dealers are  replacing the cooling pumps as well as the coolant. One guy reckons he has had the same issue three times since he got his IONIQ at Christmas.
> Mick



If it’s a fault I am sure they will get around and fix all the affect vehicles, but it’s not something that the user has to think about normally, I couldn’t tell you what colour or type of coolant car has, the only thing available to be refilled by the user on the model 3 is window washer fluid.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 April 2022)

High insurance costs could be deterring EV buyers.









						There is another cost that could be keeping EV ownership low
					

The cost of insuring electric vehicles will eventually drop as demand rises, but in the meantime the fledgling supply chain and relatively new tech attracts premiums almost double that of a regular car.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Value Collector (20 April 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> High insurance costs could be deterring EV buyers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mine only cost $1215 / year
That’s full comprehensive, It was 2 years old at the last renewal, it doesn’t seem to bad for a car that was nearly $80k new.

How much would a petrol car in a similar price range cost?


----------



## sptrawler (20 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Mine only cost $1215 / year
> That’s full comprehensive, It was 2 years old at the last renewal, it doesn’t seem to bad for a car that was nearly $80k new.
> 
> How much would a petrol car in a similar price range cost?



When I renewed my insurance for my ICE vehicle, I asked if it was more expensive to insure an EV as I had ordered one, they said it was cheaper as they gave a green discount.
That was with RAC WA.


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## qldfrog (21 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> When I renewed my insurance for my ICE vehicle, I asked if it was more expensive to insure an EV as I had ordered one, they said it was cheaper as they gave a green discount.
> That was with RAC WA.



Well, EVs being (still?) much more expensive than equivalent ICEs, the premium sill be higher, after adding a discount for an MG EV to bring it back to maybe a beemer premium might be honourable..is it? But a $ is a $


----------



## sptrawler (21 April 2022)

Charge Fox to increase its prices on the fast chargers. Hopefully the new Government starts to roll out public charging infrastructure.








						Australia's largest electric car charging network hikes prices
					

From next month, topping up with Chargefox will be 50 per cent more expensive.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Australia’s largest electric car charging network will hike its prices by 50 per cent from next month, _Drive_ understands.
Chargefox currently operates approximately 1400 plugs across 100 sites between Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane.
Pricing is currently set at 40 cents per kWh for 350kW 'Ultra-Rapid' outlets, however that figure will climb to 60 cents per kWh from 9 May 2022.

Chargefox has faced criticism in recent years for perceived reliability flaws, and it's expected the company will target improved consistency alongside the price rise.
Despite the not-insignificant hike, by _Drive_’s estimation topping up at a Chargefox site remains approximately 60 per cent cheaper than filling an equivalent petrol car.

In 2020 _Drive_ revealed Tesla Australia had hiked its Supercharger pricing to 52 cents per kWh, however that figure has since been pulled from the marque’s website.
Last year the Federal Government announced its Future Fuels Fund, subsidising the private sector roll-out of approximately 400 charging stations.


----------



## Value Collector (21 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Charge Fox to increase its prices on the fast chargers. Hopefully the new Government starts to roll out public charging infrastructure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If charging 60cents means they make enough return to incentivise them to roll out more and more then I support it.

Although their 50 KWH locations only charge 20cents so if you are a bargain hunter, and don’t mind taking an extra 20mins to charge you can get a good deal, it could be a hassle on a road trip, but if your going to charge while you do your grocery shopping or something it’s a good deal.


----------



## sptrawler (22 April 2022)

A bit of common sense starting to evolve in the E.V space.








						BMW joins Toyota in denouncing a fully electric future
					

BMW's CEO has cautioned against exclusively selling electric cars, warning it will constrain consumer choice and cause supply-chain issues.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Mr Zipse (pictured above) said mandating all vehicles to become electric could be a counter-productive measure if the unintended consequence was that people held onto their older, higher-polluting petrol or diesel cars rather than upgrading to a more efficient one.
"If someone cannot buy an (electric vehicle) for some reason but needs a car, would you rather propose he continues to drive his old car forever?” Mr Zipse was quoted by news agency _Reuters_ as saying.

The BMW executive's candid comments follow those of Mr Toyoda, who said Toyota's strategy for achieving carbon neutrality would involve hybrid cars, as well as pure-electric vehicles.
“We are living in a diversified world and in an era in which it is hard to predict the future,” Mr Toyoda (pictured below) said in December 2021.
“Therefore it is difficult to make everyone happy with a one-size-fits-all option. That is why Toyota wants to prepare as many options as possible for our customers around the world.”

Mr Zipse has been consistent in voicing his concerns about prematurely phasing out petrol and diesel engines, telling politicians in Germany in February 2022 that shutting down production would not benefit consumers or the environment. 
“The largest market segment in absolute terms by a wide margin in Germany, but also in Europe and worldwide, is the internal combustion engine. Before you simply shut something like that down within eight or ten years, you have to know well what you’re doing,” Mr Zipse said at the time.
“It would be harmful to simply give up a technology in which you have a global market position without need. I don’t think that would help the climate or anyone else.”

Locally, Toyota Australia executives have shared similar sentiments, cautioning governments against leaving the masses behind in the push for electric vehicles.

Sean Hanley, the sales and marketing boss of Toyota Australia, said in January 2022 the company would retain its commitment to hybrid vehicles in tandem with its development of electric cars, suggesting hybrids were an affordable low-emissions alternative for consumers.


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## mullokintyre (22 April 2022)

Bosch has resurrected an old idea of "renting" batteries t EV users rather than using a charger.
From Go Auto


> ALMOST a decade after the collapse of a company (BetterPlace) poised to make EV ownership convenient by swapping batteries, Bosch has launched a global plan to rent car batteries to fleets.
> 
> 
> Bosch, in partnership with Mitsubishi Corporation, said the battery swap service will remove the cost of batteries – the most expensive single component of an EV – and slash costs for EV fleets.
> ...



Evan Thornley, there is a blast from the past. Listed as an "entrepreneur" , he also  started  Looksmart, which failed at the end of the dot com boom. He ran for the Victorian parliment and won then made few friends when he quit after two years. He was  also the founder of ABC learning, another troublesome enterprise.
He was one of the founding members of Getup!, and sat on threboards of various left wing think tanks.
Have not heard mych from Evan of recent times.


> “I continue to believe that the BetterPlace vision is both accurate and commercially sound, and trust that whatever shortfalls we suffer are correctly seen as errors of execution not of strategy,” Thornley wrote to employees when he left.
> 
> Cue in Bosch. The German industrial business said in launching its EV battery swap idea that it will cut costs for electric vehicle fleets.
> 
> ...



Mick


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## JohnDe (22 April 2022)

Spent a day and night at Hamilton Island, 90% of the transport is EVs.


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## Telamelo (22 April 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Do not worry too much, the EVs will not be there
> not enough lithium..again facts not narrative
> 
> 
> ...



RE: "Until new battery tech is found, the EV pipe dream will not happen"

That's where high grade/high purity Manganese comes into the equation as it will revolutionise battery tech for EV's imo


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## Value Collector (22 April 2022)

Telamelo said:


> RE: "Until new battery tech is found, the EV pipe dream will not happen"
> 
> That's where high grade/high purity Manganese comes into the equation as it will revolutionise battery tech for EV's imo



I think anyone that thinks Ev’s are a pipe dream has had their head in the sand.


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## rederob (23 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A bit of common sense starting to evolve in the E.V space.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A select few car executives that comment on the future of the motor vehicle industry have done their homework, and the leaders in this regard are Musk and Herbert Diess (VW Group), plus a bunch of Chinese NEV entrepreneurs.

First, I have yet to read anyone mandating EVs.  That's separate from cities excluding FF vehicles from entry after specified dates, or nations excluding new FF sales from specified dates.
Second, the vehicle industry's global manufacturing supply chain is not disappearing, so theoretical future annual production should continue to accommodate the present natural vehicle turnover rate.  That is, Zipse's idea that people will have to keep older vehicles is a nonsense.
Third, legacy auto have created their own problem in not pivoting earlier to the NEV concept, and BEVs in particular.  The writing has been on the wall for many years and it impossible for legacy auto to have not seen that Tesla was unable to meet demand despite having very few offerings *and* relatively expensive ones at that.
Zipse and his legacy auto colleagues could have collaborated years ago to confront the CO2 challenge of ICE vehicles and their climate warming potential, but he still chooses to bury his head in the sand along with numerous other auto execs.  If legacy auto was half smart, and wanted to cling to an ICE vehicle concept, then to counter Musk they should have spent billions on engines that burnt hydrogen instead of gasoline.  IMHO it's not too late and light hydrogen energy may well gazump heavy batteries in vehicles in the long run anyway.  Heavy transport operators appear to have done their sums and worked out that hydrogen gives them significant additional load capacity over batteries, and they just need Nikola or similar to get their act together and deliver a hydrogen "engine" that will do the job.

The vehicle manufacturing landscape is presently doing an about turn.  While over the past decade many legacy auto manufacturers moved a lot of production to China, Chinese manufacturers are now actively planning or building production facilities overseas.


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## sptrawler (23 April 2022)

I think they are pretty spot on with the one size doesn't fit all, as you say hydrogen will play its part also, what I took from the article was that they are just warning against legislating ICE engines out of existence when there is still a requirement for them in some parts of the World.
The Third World Countries will lag behind the West in changing over to E.V's and I think the manufacturers are saying if it isn't economical for us to make ICE engines or they aren't allowed to make ICE engines, it may have unintended consequences. 
I may be wrong and maybe you're right, they just want to keep spending money on a product that costs more to produce and to warrant. It doesn't sound like an intelligent plan, but hey who knows.


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## rederob (23 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I may be wrong and maybe you're right, they just want to keep spending money on a product that costs more to produce and to warrant.* It doesn't sound like an intelligent plan*, but hey who knows.



Given that the heart of any company is its product, then its *plan *is to stay in business by ensuring its product remains in demand and is competitive in the marketplace of its consumer base.
The present advantage of ICEVs is they are cheaper to produce because batteries cost more than ICEs, *and* their infrastructure is in place.
Thereafter just about everything is a disadvantage, and most important of these is that ownership costs - that is, the benefit to the consumer over time - negates the selling price advantage.
What is remarkable here is that a trend is firmly in place, and that trend is seeing ICEV's share of all vehicle sales tumbling month after month as noted in the below chart showing that in 2022 more than one car in ten sold will be electric:


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## sptrawler (23 April 2022)

rederob said:


> Given that the heart of any company is its product, then its *plan *is to stay in business by ensuring its product remains in demand and is competitive in the marketplace of its consumer base.
> The present advantage of ICEVs is they are cheaper to produce because batteries cost more than ICEs, *and* their infrastructure is in place.
> Thereafter just about everything is a disadvantage, and most important of these is that ownership costs - that is, the benefit to the consumer over time - negates the selling price advantage.
> What is remarkable here is that a trend is firmly in place, and that trend is seeing ICEV's share of all vehicle sales tumbling month after month as noted in the below chart showing that in 2022 more than one car in ten sold will be electric.



I think we are talking about different things, in first world countries E.V uptake will be huge, third world countries with third world electrical infrastructure I'm not as convinced as you are, but as I said who knows.
I'm not as invested in my opinion as some and as the outcome doesn't affect me, I'm not bothered either way a bit like the election really. 🤣


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## rederob (23 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think we are talking about different things, in first world countries E.V uptake will be huge, third world countries with third world electrical infrastructure I'm not as convinced as you are, but as I said who knows.



*Car ownership in third world countries is low, even more so for NEW car ownership*.  However, their take-up of electric bikes, trikes/rickshaws and motor scooters is increasing as this does not require EV charging infrastructure.  Swap and go battery stations for motor scooters would speed this up.

From what I can tell, the sale of used cars from modern societies to less developed nations will continue as usual.  At some point this will also mean the used cars will be NEVs, and maybe by then charging infrastructure will have started to roll out.

Here's what I found amusing in you link, "... the automotive industry is increasingly of the view that electric cars should be an option alongside other technology such as hybrids, and super-efficient petrol and diesel engines."  I think the word "*legacy*" was missing.  The old guard is being quickly replaced!

Legacy auto is dying.  If the third world has demand for new ICEVs then maybe that can be a new market for them and they will be resurrected (for a brief period).


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## qldfrog (25 April 2022)

Ooops








						Somebody summoned their Tesla at an airport and it crashed into a $2 million jet | Boing Boing
					

Marvel to the spectacle of a driverless Tesla as it rolls across an airport runway and hits the back of a jet, causing it to pivot around. So far, there are no details about who owns the self-crash…




					boingboing.net


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## basilio (25 April 2022)

Next new idea.  Travelling around Australia in your Telsa and bringing your own printed solar panels to power the trip.
The solar panels cost $10 a square metre.


*Printed solar panels to power Tesla on Australian road trip*​ 
​ 


By E&T editorial staff

Published Wednesday, April 20, 2022

Scientists in Australia are testing printed solar panels they will use to power a Tesla on a 15,100km journey beginning in September. They hope the road trip will get the public thinking about steps to help avert climate change.                 

The Charge Around Australia project will power a Tesla with 18 of the team’s printed solar panels, each 18m long, rolling them out beside the vehicle to soak up sunlight when the car needs charging.

Paul Dastoor, the inventor of the printed solar panels, said the University of Newcastle (New South Wales) team would be testing not only the endurance of the panels but their potential performance for other applications.

“This is actually an ideal testbed to give us information about how we go about using and powering technology in other remote locations, for example, in space,” Dastoor told news agency _Reuters_ in the town of Gosforth, north of Sydney.









						Printed solar panels to power Tesla on Australian road trip
					

Scientists in Australia are testing printed solar panels they will use to power a Tesla on a 15,100km journey beginning in September. They hope the road trip will get the public thinking about steps to help avert climate change.




					eandt.theiet.org


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## Value Collector (25 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think they are pretty spot on with the one size doesn't fit all, as you say hydrogen will play its part also, what I took from the article was that they are just warning against legislating ICE engines out of existence when there is still a requirement for them in some parts of the World.
> The Third World Countries will lag behind the West in changing over to E.V's and I think the manufacturers are saying if it isn't economical for us to make ICE engines or they aren't allowed to make ICE engines, it may have unintended consequences.
> I may be wrong and maybe you're right, they just want to keep spending money on a product that costs more to produce and to warrant. It doesn't sound like an intelligent plan, but hey who knows.



Some countries will be able leap frog petrol cars and go straight to electric, a bit like developing countries are avoiding constructing land line phone systems and leap frogging directly to mobile phone systems.


----------



## sptrawler (25 April 2022)

Value Collector said:


> So countries will be able leap from petrol cars and go straight to electric, a bit like developing countries are avoiding constructing land line phone systems and leap frogging directly to mobile phone systems.



Things are definitely moving along quickly, it will be an interesting journey. I'm just happy I'm in Australia and comfortable enough to be able watch it unfold, a bit like you guys on the East coast where the charging infrastructure covers the whole coastline.


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## sptrawler (28 April 2022)

Ampol to start rolling out 150KW E.V charging stations across the country.

https://www.ampol.com.au/about-ampol/news-and-media/ampcharge-launch
The AmpCharge rollout will commence with five pilot sites at Ampol service stations in Carseldine QLD, Alexandria NSW, Northmead NSW, Altona North VIC, and Belmont WA, coming online in June and July 2022. These sites will feature AmpCharge chargers supplied with renewable energy, or covered by green certificates, and will be capable of delivering charge to a BEV at up to 150kw, with each site having the capacity to charge at least two BEVs concurrently. The sites will also feature solar panel systems and battery storage provisions.

The five pilot sites form part of an initial roll out to approximately 120 sites by October 2023 as part of an agreement with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) announced in July last year, with ARENA providing partial funding through the Future Fuels Fund.


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## mullokintyre (29 April 2022)

Just had a test drive of the Volvo recharge 40.
most impressed, plenty of room inside, stunning acceleration, extremely quiet, beautifully finished and 
very easy for old buggers to get in and out of.
cons  the range is not great, I find the sunroof useless , and there is no spare tire.
All in all thoughts were mostly positive.
Would have bought it on the spot, but the wife wants to drive a few others first.
Mick


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## JohnDe (29 April 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Just had a test drive of the Volvo recharge 40.
> most impressed, plenty of room inside, stunning acceleration, extremely quiet, beautifully finished and
> very easy for old buggers to get in and out of.
> cons  the range is not great, I find the sunroof useless , and there is no spare tire.
> ...




Which one?
Recharge Plug-In Hybrid – $64,990
Recharge Pure Electric – $77,559 standard



> Swedish brand’s first EV for Australia won’t come cheap
> Australian pricing and specifications for the 2021 Volvo XC40 Recharge Pure Electric have been announced ahead of first customer deliveries in September.
> Only one generously equipped version of Volvo Car Australia’s first EV will be available, and it will come with a high price for a small SUV: $76,990 plus on-road costs.
> That makes it $12,000 pricier than the Volvo XC40 Recharge Plug-In Hybrid ($64,990 plus ORCs), and $20,000 to $30,000 more expensive than conventional combustion-powered versions of Volvo’s small luxury SUV ($46,990-$56,990).
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (29 April 2022)

Another one enters the Australian market. All the scaremongering about not wanting to bring EVs to Australia is fading away, with more manufacturers sending more models over.

*2022 BMW i4 review: Australian first drive*​​BMW has released a sleek mid-size electric sedan to rival the Tesla Model 3. However, as it's not a ground-up redesign, it comes with some compromises.​​German car maker BMW has joined the growing roster of companies lining up to take back some business from Tesla.​​The Tesla Model 3 electric car outsold the BMW 3 Series petrol sedan by more than four-to-one in Australia last year.​​It's taken some time, but BMW finally has a sedan option for new-car buyers wanting to embrace the electric-car era – rather than its experimental i3 hatch or high-priced i8 supercar.​​To expedite the arrival of an electric BMW sedan in showrooms, rather than develop an all-new model from the ground up, BMW modified the existing platform it uses for its mid-size petrol cars.​​The proportions and design are familiar because the 2022 BMW i4 electric car is based on the BMW 4 Series released in 2020.​​While the driving range is fair for the class (up to 520km for the i4 eDrive40 and 465km for the high-performance i4 M50), the Tesla Model 3 aces both models in this regard – and offers quicker performance and a smaller price tag.​​That said, this car is a step in the right direction on BMW's path to electrification.​​There are initially two models available: a BMW i4 eDrive40 from $99,900 plus on-road costs, and the BMW i4 M50 from $124,900 plus on-road costs. The full list of specifications for each model can be found here.​​The more affordable model offers the longest driving range out of the pair (up to 520km in ideal conditions) but the BMW i4 M50 range is reduced to about 465km because of its epic acceleration.​​While the BMW i4 eDrive40 is no slouch (0 to 100km/h in 5.7 seconds makes it quicker than most hot hatches), the BMW i4 M50 is next-level quick. A 0 to 100km/h time of 3.9 seconds puts that model in Porsche 911 territory, without using a drop of petrol.​
*Key details*​*2023 BMW i4sedan*​Price (MSRP)​$99,900 to $124,900 plus on-road costs​Rivals​Tesla Model 3 | Porsche Taycan RWD | Polestar 2​
​Conclusion​First impressions are generally favourable. My main reservation is the price compared to a Tesla Model 3. 
Although it's not quite in the same price range, the more expensive BMW iX – a new-from-the-ground-up electric SUV – is a better and more complete overall electric-car than the BMW i4 in my opinion.
Given our preview drive was brief and in wet weather, we will reserve final judgment until we get the BMW i4 into the _Drive_ garage.
In the meantime, if you have your heart set on a sleek electric sedan that's not a Tesla, the BMW i4 is worth a look.
Just be sure to drive it on familiar roads so you can feel the weight of this car. 
At close to 2.2-tonnes, it's as heavy as a Toyota HiLux and almost 25 per cent heavier than a Holden Commodore V8.
Other electric cars we've driven lately are better at disguising their excess bodyweight.
​







						2022 BMW i4 review: Australian first drive
					

BMW has released a sleek mid-size electric sedan to rival the Tesla Model 3. However, as it's not a ground-up EV, it comes with compromises.




					www.drive.com.au


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## mullokintyre (29 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Which one?
> Recharge Plug-In Hybrid – $64,990
> Recharge Pure Electric – $77,559 standard



Pure electric but the tri motor version which is 87k


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## Smurf1976 (29 April 2022)

JohnDe said:


> BMW has released a sleek mid-size electric sedan to rival the Tesla Model 3. However, as it's not a ground-up redesign, it comes with some compromises.



Had a look at a BMW factory in Germany 5 years ago. Nothing special, just the public tour that anyone can do.

They were quite upfront that any new vehicle design was being done so as to accommodate any engine type without major changes. So petrol, diesel, electric can all be offered with the same vehicle body.

I can't post any photos, because they didn't allow any to be taken (and were extremely strict on that point - everyone entering was searched by security to ensure no cameras), but they'd clearly thought about it all yes and that was 5 years ago now.


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## Smurf1976 (29 April 2022)

sptrawler said:


> AmpCharge



A clever name there....


----------



## sptrawler (29 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Had a look at a BMW factory in Germany 5 years ago. Nothing special, just the public tour that anyone can do.
> 
> They were quite upfront that any new vehicle design was being done so as to accommodate any engine type without major changes. So petrol, diesel, electric can all be offered with the same vehicle body.
> 
> I can't post any photos, because they didn't allow any to be taken (and were extremely strict on that point - everyone entering was searched by security to ensure no cameras), but they'd clearly thought about it all yes and that was 5 years ago now.



I remember reading a long time ago BMW and Merc were designing engines to run on H2, that has all gone quiet, but I bet they are way ahead of where people think they are.


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## moXJO (30 April 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> A clever name there....



"Overcharge" was taken?


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## JohnDe (1 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Had a look at a BMW factory in Germany 5 years ago. Nothing special, just the public tour that anyone can do.
> 
> They were quite upfront that any new vehicle design was being done so as to accommodate any engine type without major changes. So petrol, diesel, electric can all be offered with the same vehicle body.
> 
> I can't post any photos, because they didn't allow any to be taken (and were extremely strict on that point - everyone entering was searched by security to ensure no cameras), but they'd clearly thought about it all yes and that was 5 years ago now.




I have admired quite a few BMW models, some very stylish classics in their catalogue. However, I have always been disappointed with their build quality and surprised at how people don't seem to mind.


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## JohnDe (1 May 2022)

More evidence showing that EV charging infrastructure is required, and not subsidies and tax cuts for people to buy EVs.

*A lack of chargers could stall the electric-vehicle revolution*​
*Forget Tesla’s production hell. The hardest bit of EVs is the powering up*​​Car-buyers are getting behind the wheel of an electric vehicle (ev) in ever greater numbers. As battery costs tumble, prices are falling. Compared with internal combustion engine (ice) cars, which can be a pain to drive and service, electric cars are a thrillseeking motorist’s dream. But the shift to evs is about more than driving pleasure. Transport accounts for around a quarter of the world’s carbon emissions, and road vehicles for around three-quarters of that share. If the world is to have any chance of reaching net-zero by 2050, evs will need to take over, and soon.​​The 6m pioneers who opt for evs this year will still represent only 8% of all car purchasers. That figure must rise to two-thirds by 2030 and to 100% by 2050. Many investors are operating on the assumption that this will all happen as smoothly as a Tesla accelerates. The soaring market values of Elon Musk’s $1trn company, newcomers such as Rivian, which makes electric pickup trucks, and Chinese luxury ev firms, attest to sky-high confidence. Electric-battery makers, too, are booming.​​Look beyond the glamorous, high-tech-filled automobiles that most obviously embody the ev revolution, however, and a merciless bottleneck appears. Not even those eyeing a new ev are sufficiently aware of it. Governments are only waking up to the problem. Put simply: how will all the electric cars get charged?​​The current number of public chargers—1.3m—cannot begin to satisfy the demands of the world’s rapidly expanding electric fleet. According to an estimate by the International Energy Agency (iea), a forecaster, by the end of this decade 40m public charging points will be needed, requiring an annual investment of $90bn a year as 2030 approaches. If net-zero goals are to be met, by 2050 the world will need five times as many.​​​​Governments’ current pledges to phase out ice cars and shift to evs are, it is true, not quite consistent with net-zero. Even if roads turn electric less speedily than they should, though, the sums the world needs to spend on charging infrastructure are still stupendous. In a slower scenario envisaged by Bloombergnef (bnef), a research firm, in which ev sales keep rising as battery prices fall but reach just under a third of all vehicles sold by 2030, roughly $600bn of investment would still be needed by 2040. That would pay for fewer chargers than the iea foresees—24m public points alone by 2040 (and 309m in total, see chart 1). If net-zero is to be achieved by 2050, bnef puts the cumulative charging investment required at a whopping $1.6trn.​​Besides installing too few public chargers, the charging industry’s operational record is poor. The official number currently exceeds what some authorities reckon is needed. The European Commission, for example, thinks every ten evs require one public charger. According to the Boston Consulting Group (bcg), there are now five evs per charging point in the eu and China, and nine in America.​​That is in theory. In practice, a survey of chargers in China by Volkswagen (vw) found many inoperable or “ iced” chargers (those blocked inadvertently or deliberately by fossil-fuelled cars). Only 30-40% of China’s 1m public points were available at any time. It is safe to assume some inoperability in the eu and America. This summer Herbert Diess, vw’s boss, complained on LinkedIn, a social network, that his holiday had gone less than smoothly because Ionity, a European charging network, provided too few points on the Brenner Pass between Austria and Italy. “Anything but a premium charging experience,” Mr Diess wrote. That vw part-owns Ionity made the criticism sting more.​​​Drivers can smell trouble ahead. Range anxiety and the availability of public charging is a huge issue (see chart 2). In a recent survey by AlixPartners, a consultancy, in the seven countries that make up 85% of global ev sales the cars’ high prices came third on the list of top five reasons not to switch to battery power; the four others were all worries related to charging.​​To assess the scale of the challenge start with the basics. A big advantage of evs is that they can be charged at home—or at workplaces, if employers install chargers. In America 70% of homes have off-street parking where a charger can be installed (the equivalent figure is lower in Europe and China). bcg estimates that in 2020 home and workplace charging accounted for nearly three-quarters of the total charging energy use in America, seven-tenths in Europe and three-fifths in China.​​Current ev models typically have batteries with ranges of around 400km. Some go over 650km. The average American drives 50km a day, according to Bank of America. Europeans and Chinese drive less. Two types of charger are good enough to top up vehicles, or give them a boost overnight at home or during the working day. The slowest, providing up to 8km of range an hour, can do the job. So do “level 2” chargers that provide 16-32km. Both are easy on the wallet. Drivers can use dedicated sockets that cost a few hundred dollars (and are often subsidised by governments) to tap the cheapest electricity tariffs.​​Nonetheless, home and workplace charging only gets you so far. As ev ownership spreads from wealthier households to people living in flats or dwellings without the ability to plug in, a public network becomes vital. In America, Europe and China demand for public charging is expected to increase (see chart 3). Public chargers come in three varieties. A common kind is kerbside charging, via converted lampposts or other dedicated points, where cars might park overnight. Then there is “destination” charging, of the sort that is becoming more widely available in car parks at shopping centres, restaurants, cinemas and the like. Both kinds are level-2, with installation costs usually between $2,000 and $10,000 per point.​​Fast charging, which typically adds 100-130km of range every 20 minutes, is vital on main roads for drivers making long inter-city trips and in cities for a quick emergency jolt. Commercial vehicles driving longer distances, such as taxis, need fast charging, too. But since charging firms need to recoup hefty costs of $100,000 or more per fast charger, using such facilities is pricey. To make life easier for customers, Tesla’s mapping software directs its cars on long journeys and works out the best route weaving through its dedicated “Supercharger” network. Other new ev models come with similar features.​​Charging-industry insiders point out, reasonably, that both ev ownership and charging are in their infancy. Pessimism is unwarranted, they argue, based on a few short years of experience. Only one in 100 cars on the world’s roads is an ev, after all. Pat Romano of ChargePoint, one of the world’s biggest charging firms, talks of the start of “a 20-year arc”.​​Fair enough. Still, future demand for charging at scale is impossible to know as yet. Expansion is coming fast, say some. Along with the momentum from electrophile governments, the opportunity to make money charging the world’s expanding fleet means that “hyperbolic growth” is on the way, says James West of Evercore isi, a bank. But exactly how many public chargers are needed for each ev on the road is “an open question”, notes Bank of America. Scott Bishop of Yunex Traffic, a division of Siemens, a German firm that makes charging hardware, hears many different answers when he asks insiders what share of chargers should be slow versus fast.​​Another problem is the industry’s structure. Aakash Arora of bcg’s automotive practice calls its many complex layers the “gnarliest problem of all”. The need to co-ordinate with and get permission from many parties helps explain the slow roll-out. First, there are firms that make the chargers themselves. Then there are the operators. These might own the points, earning money from charging. Or they might collect fees for maintaining chargers operated by site-owners. Site-owners, usually businesses, other private landlords or local authorities, provide the locations for chargers and charge rent to point-owning operators. Service providers are middlemen who allow the charging to happen, with apps or cards that give access to charge points and facilitate payment.​​*Watt a business*​Three kinds of firm are coming to rule the ev-charging roost. One is the vertically integrated car giant. Tesla has not revealed what it has spent on its “Supercharger” network, which now numbers 30,000 points worldwide. But it is probably several billion dollars. Other car firms are following, to a point. bmw, Ford, Hyundai and Daimler are partners with vw in Ionity. Its fast-charging network hopes to expand from 1,500 points to 7,000 by 2025. Electrify America, set up by vw in 2016 as part of its settlement with American regulators over its emissions-cheating scandal, now has 2,200 fast chargers in the United States. General Motors says it will spend $750m on charging. Its first move will be to install 40,000 points at dealerships.​​Specialist charging businesses are also expanding. Several have gone public in the past year. None is profitable, and their revenues are tiny for now, but their market values are rising. The most richly valued (at around $7bn) is ChargePoint, which controls 44% of America’s public-charging market and is expanding in Europe. evBox, a Dutch firm, has 300,000 points worldwide, including a quarter of Europe’s public level-2 chargers and a third of fast-charging points. evgo has half the fast-charging market in America (excluding Tesla). But as Ryan Fisher of bnef notes, in the next decade charging firms will have to find business models that reliably produce profits even if governments cut subsidies.​​A third category is energy firms. Fearful of losing business at petrol stations, they are developing ambitious schemes. After buying Ubitricity, a big European on-street charging firm, in February, Royal Dutch Shell, an Anglo-Dutch oil major, said in August that it planned to roll out 500,000 charging points around the world by 2025, both kerbside and fast charging. bp and Total have also been buying charging firms. Utilities are making a push, too. Wallbox, part-owned by Spain’s Iberdrola, sells chargers for homes and workplaces. The Electric Highway Coalition, made up of 17 American power companies, plans to install fast charging along inter-city routes.​​Governments will act. America’s new infrastructure law sets aside $7.5bn for the installation of 500,000 public points by 2030. Mandates such as that recently announced in Britain requiring new homes, workplaces and retail sites to have charging points, adding 145,000 every year, are likely to become more common. A reason for optimism is that improvements in batteries should continue to offer ever longer ranges, and so less need for frequent charging. Newer batteries will be replenished more rapidly than today’s are, and chargers will provide current more swiftly.​​Doubts about the ramp-up nevertheless persist. The numbers are still small relative to the vast scale of charging networks the world needs. More money will be required to update electricity grids to distribute power to the new source of demand. bcg forecasts that America, Europe and China, home to most of the world’s evs, will have only 6.5m public chargers between them by 2030—not enough to meet the iea’s global target of 40m. More cars will vie for each charger. Drivers may need to seek patience as well as thrills. ■​








						A lack of chargers could stall the electric-vehicle revolution
					

Forget Tesla’s production hell. The hardest bit of EVs is the powering up




					www.economist.com


----------



## 3 hound (1 May 2022)

basilio said:


> Next new idea.  Travelling around Australia in your Telsa and bringing your own printed solar panels to power the trip.
> The solar panels cost $10 a square metre.
> 
> 
> ...



This sounds hyperbolic and scammy. 

The 4wd community have been using solar panels that roll up like a swag for some time now to charge their 12 volt system. They are readily available off the shelf.

Why is this reported as a scientific discovery and research??

What am I missing.


----------



## basilio (1 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> This sounds hyperbolic and scammy.
> 
> The 4wd community have been using solar panels that roll up like a swag for some time now to charge their 12 volt system. They are readily available off the shelf.
> 
> ...




Che ?  Really 3 Hound?  What are you missing ?

Did you actually read the story before commenting?

The 4 wd drive community use solar panels to power the fridge and the phones.
These panels are powering the whole trip.  They are providing all the juice for the 15k trip around Oz.

On top of that the panels are in fact a completely new technology.  They have been literally printed off a printing press. A significant part of this trip is exploring the reliability of these panels on long term usage - as the story points out.


----------



## 3 hound (1 May 2022)

I want their job, get tax funding for a lap around Australia to prove you can charge a battery with a solar panel.

Why not just stick on a lab roof do the measurements.

I like these scientists, my kind of people if they can get away with it.

Do they have insta and will they stop for some spear fishing etc??


----------



## JohnDe (1 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> I want their job, get tax funding for a lap around Australia to prove you can charge a battery with a solar panel.
> 
> Why not just stick on a lab roof do the measurements.
> 
> ...




If you could do the hard yards, rather than whine about others, jobs like theirs would be open to you.



> Charge Around Australia is a partnership between the UK company Charging Around Britain Ltd and the University of Newcastle, Australia. The project is a challenge to drive an electric vehicle, powered by solar energy, some 9,380 miles (15,097km) around the entire coastline of Australia.
> 
> On the journey, we will use portable printed solar cell panels to enable off-grid electric car charging. This innovative solar technology will enable us to harvest free energy from the sun in wilderness stretches along the route where established charging stations are unavailable.
> 
> ...









						Printed Solar Cell Panels Off-grid | Charge Around Australia
					

Charge Around Australia uses printed solar technology to generate renewable energy for off-grid electric car charging on a drive round the country’s coast.




					chargearoundaustralia.com


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## 3 hound (1 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> If you could do the hard yards, rather than whine about others, jobs like theirs would be open to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What hard yards, your first link goes to a family accounting firm with an interest in sustainability;

Stuart McBain Accountants are a warm, friendly, accessible and down to earth team of specialist financial professionals delivering no nonsense advice in a language our clients can understand.  We use our experience and track record to enable our clients to sleep well at night with the peace of mind that all of their accounts needs are being looked after​

The other links are nearly purely marketing. Then there is the most unremarkable statement that paraphrasing the pandemic has taught how reliant we are on electricity....that's big brained.

There is no info about the experiments, performance measurements, vehicle characteristics, methodology....nothing other than they will educate kids in remote schools with STEM and relieve people of "range anxiety"  but they have a full support team and support vehicle. 

The only time efficiency was mentioned was 1-2% apparently in large scale building applications but it was not clear. I found nothing technical about the vehicle or experiments or the performance indicators. Doesn't mean they are not there I just didn't see them.

Point me to the technical bits I can't trawl thru your links looking for something substantial.

The scientific merit of this project is not obvious, the project seems more about marketing and education, nothing wrong with that but that is not why it was posted.


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## JohnDe (1 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> What hard yards, your first link goes to a family accounting firm with an interest in sustainability;
> 
> ​




Not sure where you got the 'family accounting firm' from.

Charge Around Australia is a collaboration between Charging Around Britain Ltd and the University of Newcastle, Australia. The partnership brings together two sustainable energy advocates – electric car enthusiast, Stuart McBain, and Professor Paul Dastoor, a world authority on organic electronics. The pair share an ambition to find real solutions to tackle climate change and the global energy crisis.​​As director of Charging Around Britain Ltd, Stuart McBain has been investigating the development of products and services focussed on sustainability over the last five years.​​In 2017, he drove around the coastline of Great Britain in an electric car to prove there are sufficient charging points in the UK to ensure that the road range of electric vehicles imposes no limits on journey length. Later that year, he drove around the rugged coastline of Iceland in a Nissan Leaf car to demonstrate that standard specification electric vehicles are more than capable of successfully completing challenging, long-distance journeys.​​Physicist and solar energy researcher Professor Paul Dastoor is a global leader in organic electronics. His innovative work at the University of Newcastle developing the world’s first printed solar cell panels, led Stuart to contact him with a view to taking this pioneering technology to the next stage by demonstrating a commercial use for it.​





						Sustainable Energy - Climate Change | Charge Around Australia
					

Charge Around Australia partners Stuart McBain Ltd and the University of Newcastle in a project to use printed solar tech on a drive round the country’s coast.




					chargearoundaustralia.com


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## 3 hound (1 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Not sure where you got the 'family accounting firm' from.




You obviously haven't followed your own link.

Nothing you just posted in either the first or second post vaguely resembles any legit scientific experiment or research.

I get this is not an engineering forum but you don't seem to be able to tell a marketing and promotional article from a technical paper. Nothing wrong with that but you are not making a coherent case.


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## 3 hound (1 May 2022)

@JohnDe I'm the guy that is having doubts about spending $100 000+ on a new overland tourer to go around Australia in.

I am precisely the person this article purports to speak to to relieve "range anxiety". I made a thread about it this very issue so I have a vested interest in the topic.

The article fails miserably to address any of the issues it claims to.

It's seems nothing more than a publicity stunt or promotional flyer to promote the uni and educate people - a technical paper it is not.

I am yet hopeful I am wrong and you will show me some legitimate science I was "whining" about...please do.


----------



## JohnDe (1 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> You obviously haven't followed your own link.




First thing I did, and found "Charge Around Australia is a collaboration between Charging Around Britain Ltd and the University of Newcastle, Australia."






						Printed Solar Cell Panels Off-grid | Charge Around Australia
					

Charge Around Australia uses printed solar technology to generate renewable energy for off-grid electric car charging on a drive round the country’s coast.




					chargearoundaustralia.com
				






> Stuart McBain is an entrepreneur with a serious interest in sustainable energy. The partnership between his company Charging Around Britain Ltd and the University of Newcastle, Australia, where physicist and solar energy researcher Professor Paul Dastoor leads the Centre for Organic Electronics, has resulted in Charge Around Australia. Together, Stuart and Professor Dastoor have assembled a dynamic, interdisciplinary team to take this innovative project forward.
> 
> Encompassing leading lights in the fields of chemistry, physics and the synthesis of conducting polymers, the team is tackling the challenge of generating renewable energy for long distance electric car travel.
> 
> ...


----------



## 3 hound (1 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> First thing I did, and found "Charge Around Australia is a collaboration between Charging Around Britain Ltd and the University of Newcastle, Australia."
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Our conversation has just ended.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Range anxiety and the availability of public charging is a huge issue (see chart 2).



If there's one term I hate in all this, it's "range anxiety".

Either there's a problem in any given situation or there isn't. If there is well then it's far worse than "anxiety" when the vehicle actually does run out of power.

I just see it as somewhat dismissive as a term since the issue's extremely real if it occurs, it's not some imaginary thing that's all in the mind. 

I know it's a widely used term but personally I'm not keen on it.


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## Smurf1976 (2 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> If there's one term I hate in all this, it's "range anxiety".



Should point out I wasn't having go at JohnDe's post there, just the term itself.


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## qldfrog (2 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> If there's one term I hate in all this, it's "range anxiety".
> 
> Either there's a problem in any given situation or there isn't. If there is well then it's far worse than "anxiety" when the vehicle actually does run out of power.
> 
> ...



Think about the number of people who still manage to run out of fuel on ICEs while oetrol station are plentiful aand filling so quick.
Now,use EV, huge variable cost of power) aka refill between time of day at home,at servo if when available and the time to recharge.it will be fun to see all thee EVs stuck on or along the road in a couple of yers.
Wonder if there is a business opportunity for giant batteries on wheels for onroad top up you could call, or as part of RACQ/V etc road assistance.get a 50km recharge in 10 minutes so that you can complete your trip or head to a recharge area


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## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Think about the number of people who still manage to run out of fuel on ICEs while oetrol station are plentiful aand filling so quick.
> Now,use EV, huge variable cost of power) aka refill between time of day at home,at servo if when available and the time to recharge.it will be fun to see all thee EVs stuck on or along the road in a couple of yers.
> Wonder if there is a business opportunity for giant batteries on wheels for onroad top up you could call, or as part of RACQ/V etc road assistance.get a 50km recharge in 10 minutes so that you can complete your trip or head to a recharge area




Unfortunately Australian culture has degenerated such that a vehicle stuck on the side of the road now means free parts and vandalism.

I suggest EV batteries will be a prize target.


----------



## qldfrog (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Unfortunately Australian culture has degenerated such that a vehicle stuck on the side of the road now means free parts and vandalism.
> 
> I suggest EV batteries will be a prize target.



When people steal highway cables for copper , imagine the battery goldpot..
Cars stolen..just for the batteries, especially if they become interchangeable...which is a must have....and the black market will soon be here within 5y.
I buy an old tesla for 5k with 20km range then call my mate Johny who just got a near new battery fallen from a truck😊


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> When people steal highway cables for copper , imagine the battery goldpot..
> Cars stolen..just for the batteries, especially if they become interchangeable...which is a must have....and the black market will soon be here within 5y.
> I buy an old tesla for 5k with 20km range then call my mate Johny who just got a near new battery fallen from a truck😊



Yeah interchangeable aka easier to steal.


----------



## JohnDe (2 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> If there's one term I hate in all this, it's "range anxiety".
> 
> Either there's a problem in any given situation or there isn't. If there is well then it's far worse than "anxiety" when the vehicle actually does run out of power.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure what your saying. It is true, people either do or do not have a problem with range anxiety, the same as they do when traveling across the dessert in a petrol or diesel vehicle.

 I have owned an EV since July 2021 and chose one with long range for travel and have been traveling extensively from about the second week of ownership. The first trip was a bit rushed and at night, there was a little 'range anxiety' when heading home but that was just because it was our first time.

People will always push things to the edge, people still run out of petrol in the city.


----------



## JohnDe (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Unfortunately Australian culture has degenerated such that a vehicle stuck on the side of the road now means free parts and vandalism.
> 
> I suggest EV batteries will be a prize target.




Not as easy to remove as a catalytic converter









						Police warning as thieves target car exhausts worth more than gold
					

Modern motor vehicles have exhaust systems with precious metals worth more than gold. Now thieves are targeting parked cars, leaving motorists stranded and with big insurance bills.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> If there's one term I hate in all this, it's "range anxiety".
> 
> Either there's a problem in any given situation or there isn't. If there is well then it's far worse than "anxiety" when the vehicle actually does run out of power.
> 
> ...



I was talking to a guy charging a Nissan Leaf yesterday, he went to Collie the charger wasn't working, had to book into the motel to put it on a 10amp gpo overnight, maybe we should change 'range anxiety' to 'in deep $hit time'. 😂
I posted the charging outlets map earlier, which shows 'range anxiety' isn't an issue, if you are lucky enough to live on the far East coast, if you travel anywhere West or NW of Adelaide, Well?


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Not as easy to remove as a catalytic converter
> 
> 
> 
> ...





How do you know cutting a metal element out of a car exhaust system using power tools is harder than stealing an interchangeable battery designed to be removed easily?

Also if EV take over there won't be catalytic converters to steal.


----------



## qldfrog (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> How do you know cutting a metal element out of a car exhaust system using power tools is harder than stealing an interchangeable battery designed to be removed easily?
> 
> Also if EV take over there won't be catalytic converters to steal.



they will put the car on a float and dump the shell in a canal...well rehearsed in Europe.Where do you think the Ukrainian oligarches money come from..ooops not PC ;-)


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## JohnDe (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> How do you know cutting a metal element out of a car exhaust system using power tools is harder than stealing an interchangeable battery designed to be removed easily?
> 
> Also if EV take over there won't be catalytic converters to steal.




Maybe it has something to do with me being in the Automotive trade.

For you I'll make a list of how both can be done.

Car with exhaust (no jack) -

Look for car high enough to crawl under
Crawl under car with electric cutter from bunnings
Cut and remove catalytic convertor
Carry part to transport.
Total time 3-5 minutes from getting out of car.
Car with exhaust (jack required) -

Find car or cars in deserted carpark
Bring hydraulic lifting jack
Lift car on one side & crawl under with electric cutter from bunnings
Cut and remove catalytic convertor
Carry part to transport, go back for hydraulic jack.
Total time 5-7 minutes.

Car with battery -

Look for car with interchangeable battery (damn they're rare)
Have one or two friends for help
Bring hydraulic lifting jack, may need two.
Bring electric impact wrench and socket set.
Lift side of car, try find location that doesn't interfere with securing bolt locations.
Remove securing bolts
Lift other side of car and remove bolts.
Ensure battery pack is dropped evenly so does not jam.
With help. drag battery pack from under car from side if space available, if not
Lift front or rear of vehicle to slide battery pack out.
With friend/s carry battery pack to Ute, go back for hydraulic jack and tools.
Total time 30 minutes, if we are lucky.


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## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Maybe it has something to do with me being in the Automotive trade.
> 
> For you I'll make a list of how both can be done.
> 
> ...



Your battery does not sound very interchangeable which is what is being discussed.


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## JohnDe (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Your battery does not sound very interchangeable which is what is being discussed.




Tell me how long it took you to remove an interchangeable battery in a carpark with no hoist.


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2022)

An electric car battery weighs about 1,000 lbs or 454 kilograms
Here is a picture of a Hyundai Kona traction battery.


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> An electric car battery weighs about 1,000 lbs or 454 kilograms
> Here is a picture of a Hyundai Kona traction battery.
> 
> View attachment 141175



Is this the level of interchangeability people spruking EV's are talking about for quick battery swaps.

Good luck selling that concept.


----------



## JohnDe (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Is this the level of interchangeability people spruking EV's are talking about for quick battery swaps.
> 
> Good luck selling that concept.




There's not that much "spruking".

Tesla look into battery swaps early on when developing the Roadster and came to the conclusion that creating a fast charging network was the best way to get people traveling across states with an EV.


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2022)

They are using them in China, I could see it being used in fleets, taxis etc where they want the car off the road for a minimum time, easier to have spare batteries than have the car off the road charging. 
But for the general public who have access to charging infrastructure it wouldn't make sense IMO. Having battery packs that use the same architecture, is already being adopted by car companies sharing platforms, which would reduce development costs massively.


----------



## JohnDe (2 May 2022)

> *EV profitability to exceed that of ICEs from 2025, says BMW*
> 
> Once a ‘below average’ contributor to the business, BMW’s finance head tells Freddie Holmes that EVs now present an opportunity to boost profit-per-vehicle
> 
> ...


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

EV battery swap = specialist refit.

Gotcha.


----------



## rederob (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> EV battery swap = specialist refit.
> 
> Gotcha.



Nonsense.
Battery swapping stations are exactly that, and they take about 3 minutes:

@JohnDe explained the steps for any novice to replace an EV's battery.
*CATL *- the world's largest battery manufacturer - is now teaming with other automakers to standardise battery packing for swapping out.


----------



## divs4ever (2 May 2022)

Tata, India's electric vehicle king, takes a frugal road less travelled









						Tata, India's electric vehicle king, takes a frugal road less travelled By Reuters
					

Tata, India's electric vehicle king, takes a frugal road less travelled




					www.investing.com


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2022)

Good article on the state of play with charging infrastructure and this is on the East coast where charging infrastructure is great compared to everywhere else in Australia.
It kind of explains extremely well what @JohnDe and myself have been saying about infrastructure needs to be built before incentivising the purchase of E.V's.
I've edited out a lot of the article as it is very long.
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/...m.au&utm_content=article_3&utm_medium=partner
Driving interstate in an electric vehicle is old hat. We’ve done it, and we’ve proved that range anxiety is no longer a thing.
Between Chargefox’s and the NRMA’s charging infrastructures, it’s no longer a challenge to drive between Australia’s two most populous capital cities using nary a drop of fossil fuel.
Thanks to 350kW UltraFast Charging (UFC) stations and electric vehicles (EV) with real-world touring ranges beyond 350km, it’s easy to hop from Melbourne to Sydney with a travel time close to that of a petrol vehicle, with careful planning. 
The Ioniq 5 was fully charged when we left home, its trip computer boasting of a 410km expected range. That wouldn’t be enough to reach our overnight destination, grandpa’s house in Bowral, but based on that I saw no reason we couldn’t do it with just one recharge.
We made it as far as Euroa because the kids had other ideas. Let’s face it, nobody likes sitting in a soiled nappy for hours, and nobody else in the car should have to smell said soiled nappy for hours either.
I was also a tad worried about how fast the Ioniq 5 was chewing through its ions at an indicated 110km/h on a freeway with zero opportunity for energy recovery under brakes. We’d covered 170km and used 45 per cent of the available charge. That’s 32.6kWh at an average of 19.1kWh/100km. At that rate I’d be lucky to get 380km from a full battery.
So, I figured if we had to stop for 10 minutes for an F1-style ultra-fast nappy change, we may as well top up the electrons at Euroa’s UFC at the same time. If it can add 50kW in 18 minutes, then 10 minutes should get us back over 80 per cent.
When we pulled into the Euroa petrol station, one of the 350kW UFC bays was occupied by a BMW iX. No worries, we’ll use the other. Except it was out of order. This turned out to be an ill omen, although I didn’t realise it at the time.
With a cavalier derring-do typical of early onset road-trip delirium, I backed up to the slower but vacant 50kW fast charger and began rejuvenating the Ioniq 5’s battery at 49 of a possible 50kW.
Fifteen minutes later, nappy changed, Macca’s muffins bought and consumed (with optional hash brown inside for added crunch), and we were on the road again. The battery had absorbed 11.5kWh in that time, which got us back to 64 per cent and an expected range of 256km. Barnawartha was only another 120km and one hour up the road, and our arrival time would coincide nicely with lunchtime.
We got to Barnawartha’s bucolic charging station with just 21 per cent battery left, which the Hyundai told us was good for another 68km, not the 136km it should have had based on its Euroa projection. We had averaged 22.2kWh/100km for this purely highway leg.
Luckily for us, the UFC charger at Barnawartha was operational and about to be unoccupied by a black Porsche Taycan that had just sucked its fill. We got chatting to the owners who were heading back to Canberra after going to the Australian F1 Grand Prix.
Meanwhile, the 350kW CCS recharger was feeding the Ioniq 5 at a peak of 148kW, which seemed a bit stingy to me. I didn’t pay it much thought, however, because it promised 22min to 80 per cent, 46min to 100 per cent.
It’s fair to say our picnic was a leisurely one, giving the Ioniq 5 time to suck down 60.5kWh of power at a cost of $24.19. The battery was back to 100 per cent and our expected range said 390km. Bowral was still 460km away, so another stop would be needed. Goulburn in 385km, maybe, and then we could shoot for grandpa’s place and be there in time for dinner with an almost full Ioniq 5 and two tired grandkids.
Easy. Not.
After 180km we’d used up half the battery. When I say we, I mean my wife because it was her turn to drive. She’d averaged 19.9kWh per 100km, which is marginally better than my last leg, but still not the stuff a 420km range is made of, and not enough to reach Goulburn.
So, Gundagai here we come.
Finding the chargers in Gundagai is not easy. They’re hidden behind the big Oliver's fast food joint, out the back near the loading dock, which means driving down a dirt road churned up by delivery trucks when it’s wet, leaving ruts big enough to swallow a small Tesla.
There are two ranks of chargers, one dedicated to Elon Musk’s faithful and another to all other (heretical?) EVangelists. When we pulled in, the two UFC bays were out of order, and even had two technicians looking at their innards in a perplexed 'Do we cut the red wire or the green one?' way.
Of the two 50kW not-Ultra but still Fast Chargers, one of those was out of order too. And the other was occupied by the same black Porsche Taycan we’d met at Barnawartha. This time there was no EV-tribe camaraderie and no warm charger-side chats. They stayed within the Taycan’s confines, windows up, looking intently at their phones.
Silently rebuffed, I checked the charger’s readout. It said their car had 20 per cent and had only latched on five minutes ago. They were going to be a while. Not even the sight of myself and my wife standing around with two grumpy kids sick to death after five hours in car seat restraints could get them to lower their windows and engage us in conversation.
So, rather than hang around in a muddy loading bay complete with algae-covered water feature, we decided to make a run for Jugiong in the hope that its 50kW charger was available.
Unlike the Chargefox app, the PlugShare app that lists NRMA’s charging points as well doesn’t have real-time occupancy, unless the user chooses to ‘check-in’. Previous check-ins suggested the station was operational because another Ioniq 5 had topped up there earlier in the day.
When we got there 30 minutes later, we found a red Tesla plugged in and a grey Hyundai Kona Electric parked alongside, waiting its turn.
It was now 3:20pm, seven hours after we had left home. The excitement of our pioneering EV family road trip was rapidly wearing off. We were 200km from our destination, but only had enough battery for 107km – if the Ioniq 5’s range estimations could be trusted.
We waited. And waited.
Our spirits lifted when the Kona got sick of waiting and took off. I don’t know where they charged instead, but I hope they made it.
Shortly after that, a couple walked over towards the Tesla, and I experienced elation akin to winning the lottery. If the Kona had waited they could be plugging in now. But their impatience was our gain.
“We’re going to be another 40 minutes,” the Tesla owner told me.
It’s hard to be angry when they were here first, but I wasn’t happy. My two angelic boys were now doing demon impersonations, screaming like banshees demanding to be unleashed from this cross-country hell.
Their vocal exhortations did little to sway the Tesla owner’s commitment to maintain station. He went back across the road to the coffee shop, presumably to have another ethically sourced chai latte.
My wife and I debated heading for Yass, a further 60km away. But what guarantee would we have that (a) the Ioniq 5 would make it, (b) the station would be operational, and (c) available?
Mercifully he detached after 30 minutes, not 40, for which two frazzled parents were grateful, and said so. If it sounded insincere, it wasn’t meant that way and I apologise in retrospect. By then we were happy for any small mercies because we knew dinner in Bowral was not going to happen.
At 4:00pm we plugged in and started recharging. By 4:26pm we had taken 18.5kW on board and had 57 per cent charge. If Hyundai’s 420km range claim was to be believed that should get us 240km. Bowral was 221km away.
I didn’t trust it, so we waited some more.
By now, the bustling tourist town of Jugiong had become a ghost town. The Long Track Pantry had closed up and the staff gone home. The only people left in town were a dishevelled couple with two tired kids and their Ioniq 5 still slurping juice at 41kW/h.
At 5:00pm we pulled the plug on the charger and on Jugiong. The Ioniq 5 had consumed 35kWh and was back up to 79 per cent. We loaded the kids back into the car and returned to the Hume.
Now we had a different problem. As any parent of an infant knows, the hours between 5:00pm and 7:00pm are dominated by feeding, bathing, playing and then bed.
When 7:30pm finally comes around in our house, you will find my wife and I sitting on the couch in front of the TV, some form of alcohol close at hand and battle-weary looks on our faces, silently suffering through offspring-induced post-traumatic stress disorder.
Not on this day, however. Every kilometre between Jugiong and Bowral was travelled in fearful anticipation of an infant hollering with an insatiable hunger. As we left Jugiong, they were both quiet and we prayed it would stay that way for as long as possible. We knew the car would make it to Bowral, but we also knew the kids wouldn’t without being fed.
We stopped at Goulburn’s UFC, which also happens to be right next to a McDonald's. My wife fed our eight-month-old in the front seat while the Hyundai fed itself at 183kW and I took my older son to Macca's for his first-ever fast food. At 6:35pm we unplugged with 85 per cent charge and finished the trip in the dark, with two back-seat demons now snoozing contentedly.
We pulled into Bowral at 7:45pm, 11 long hours after we left Melbourne. We had covered 768km at an average speed of 70km/h with an average consumption of 21.1kWh/100km. At best that’s a 350km range. At Chargefox’s 40c/kW our fuel cost just under $65. By my estimate, a petrol-powered car would have done it in two hours less at a cost of $120.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I was talking to a guy charging a Nissan Leaf yesterday, he went to Collie the charger wasn't working, had to book into the motel to put it on a 10amp gpo overnight, maybe we should change 'range anxiety' to 'in deep $hit time'. 😂
> I posted the charging outlets map earlier, which shows 'range anxiety' isn't an issue, if you are lucky enough to live on the far East coast, if you travel anywhere West or NW of Adelaide, Well?



It will come, just need more brave early adopters to get Ev’s and the infrastructure will follow.


----------



## sptrawler (2 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It will come, just need more brave early adopters to get Ev’s and the infrastructure will follow.



I am a brave early adopter and luckily I have ordered a car, that will get me as far as I need to go and back on one charge.
But I'm also retired and am in no hurry to get anywhere.
As @JohnDe and myself say, why should the Government subsidise the purchase of E.V's to increase the uptake, when they could be using that money to put in charging infrastructure, as the E.V uptake is accelerating anyway?
Having more and more people stranded due to insufficient charging, wont do much to enamour E.V's to the general public IMO.


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It will come, just need more brave early adopters to get Ev’s and the infrastructure will follow.




So how many early adopters in rural areas will it take to get infrastructure in place?

What do rural folks do with their EV's while waiting for infrastructure to be built?


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> So how many early adopters in rural areas will it take to get infrastructure in place?
> 
> What do rural folks do with their EV's while waiting for infrastructure to be built?



There are already lots of chargers in rural areas (on the east coast atleast).

But rural folks will be charging at home the vast majority of the time like most other ev owners, and maybe only need a charger along some of the routes that they travel on during long trips. 

In fact EV’s might be much better for rural folks, because they can charge at home, and don’t have to worry about leaving enough fuel in the tank to make it back to town.


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> There are already lots of chargers in rural areas (on the east coast atleast).
> 
> But rural folks will be charging at home the vast majority of the time like most other ev owners, and maybe only need a charger along some of the routes that they travel on during long trips.
> 
> In fact EV’s might be much better for rural folks, because they can charge at home, and don’t have to worry about leaving enough fuel in the tank to make it back to town.




Why on earth is charging at home different for rural or urban??

There are naff all chargers in my area, most you have to book into a hotel.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Why on earth is charging at home different for rural or urban??
> 
> There are naff all chargers in my area, most you have to book into a hotel.



I meant better than fueling up with petrol, eg if you live  an hour out of town, knowing you can charge at home would have to be better than budgeting your fuel to make sure you have enough to get back to town and fuel up. 

You won’t need chargers near your home, so no need to book that motel, just charge at home, you just need chargers on the routes you drive where you will be driving more than 4 hours round trip, and they are probably there you just haven’t noticed them.


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I meant better than fueling up with petrol, eg if you live  an hour out of town, knowing you can charge at home would have to be better than budgeting your fuel to make sure you have enough to get back to town and fuel up.
> 
> You won’t need chargers near your home, so no need to book that motel, just charge at home, you just need chargers on the routes you drive where you will be driving more than 4 hours round trip, and they are probably there you just haven’t noticed them.



TBH most people an hour or more out of town have large wholesaler fuel storage tanks just like they store all their own water. A lot of places until fairly recently had all their own electrical power generation as well. 

There are/were no options.

I get your point tho.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> TBH most people an hour or more out of town have large wholesaler fuel storage tanks just like they store all their own water. A lot of places until fairly recently had all their own electrical power generation as well.
> 
> There are/were no options.
> 
> I get your point tho.



I imagine fuel deliveries would be quite expensive on a per litre basis compared to charging an Ev, so the more electric equipment (including the car) the better of they would be.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I was talking to a guy charging a Nissan Leaf yesterday, he went to Collie the charger wasn't working, had to book into the motel to put it on a 10amp gpo overnight, maybe we should change 'range anxiety' to 'in deep $hit time'. 😂



Which is an even better illustration of the problem when I point out for others (since I'm sure you're well aware) that a major industry in Collie is.....

Electricity generation.

So you've got Muja C, Muja D, Collie, Bluewaters 1 and Bluewaters 2 (those are all power stations for those not familiar) all nearby but none of them are any help if you can't get it into the car.

There's a need for charging infrastructure yes.


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

All quiet irrelevant if the millions the average farmer has invested in agricultural machinery doesn't have a viable electric counter option and there is sufficient incentive to swap over.

Please remember this conversation when you waiting in line at the grocery checkout complaining that milk, fruit, veges, meat etc has gone up by 2 cents.

The farmer did not see that increase in revenue only costs.


Value Collector said:


> I imagine fuel deliveries would be quite expensive on a per litre basis compared to charging an Ev, so the more electric equipment (including the car) the better f they would be.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> All quiet irrelevant if the millions the average farmer has invested in agricultural machinery doesn't have a viable electric counter option and there is sufficient incentive to swap over.
> 
> Please remember this conversation when you waiting in line at the grocery checkout complaining that milk, fruit, veges, meat etc has gone up by 2 cents.
> 
> The farmer did not see that increase in revenue only costs.



I am not sure what you are talking about there, because obviously if there is not a viable piece of electric equipment then they would just buy a petrol or diesel version.

But when the old diesel water pump breaks down and needs to be replaced, they might think of getting an electric one installed, when the old petrol car needs replacing maybe they get an electric one etc etc. 

I am not saying they have to go 100% electric next week, just each time the need for more equipment arises, it might help reduce cash out flow if they swapped to electric.

At the end of the day if it meant only needing a fuel delivery every 3 months instead of 2 months that would be a good thing wouldn’t it?


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I'm not sure what your saying. It is true, people either do or do not have a problem with range anxiety,



I simply dislike the term, that's all.  

That's not having a go at you, the term is widely used and seemingly accepted after all, just that it seems rather dismissive of what's actually a very serious problem.

Anxiety is usually defined as a disorder and seen as an over the top, out of proportion concern about a situation. For example someone who's fearful of public speaking - their fear isn't warranted by the situation given that no actual danger exists.

With a vehicle, running out of fuel (of whatever type) is a very real and potentially dangerous situation - describing it as anxiety just seems rather dismissive in my view.

It's a widely used term though so I'll live with it.


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I simply dislike the term, that's all.
> 
> That's not having a go at you, the term is widely used and seemingly accepted after all, just that it seems rather dismissive of what's actually a very serious problem.
> 
> ...



I get what you mean, it's like saying you have a neurotic problem you need to get over in order to be more rational, it's quiet condescending. People that use it are out of touch.


----------



## Smurf1976 (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Why on earth is charging at home different for rural or urban??



Plenty of urban areas, especially in the inner suburbs, where the only parking available is on the street and not necessarily in front of the car owner's own address.

That would be very unusual in a rural situation where the car and at least be parked on the property.

Assuming there's mains power connected, I wouldn't expect someone who lives 50km out of town to have any real difficulty charging an EV. Park it on their property and charge it.

It's someone who lives right in the centre of town with no option to put the car on their own land who has a far greater problem. I can't see councils allowing extension leads to be run across the path etc - one individual might get away with it but if it became common then they'd crack down on it I expect.


----------



## 3 hound (2 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure what you are talking about there, because obviously if there is not a viable piece of electric equipment then they would just buy a petrol or diesel version.




Pumps and cars do not add up to the big investment dollars of farmers, it's massive tractors, bulldozers....etc. 

I think the concerns stem from ideology working thru politics, Agriculture has been named and shamed as one the biggest contributors to climate change.

I can foresee a more ideological green government at some point dis-incentivising diesel machinery even before viable options become available. Dumber things have happened when politicians try and build their green street cred.


----------



## Value Collector (2 May 2022)

3 hound said:


> Pumps and cars do not add up to the big investment dollars of farmers, it's massive tractors, bulldozers....etc.
> 
> I think the concerns stem from ideology working thru politics, Agriculture has been named and shamed as one the biggest contributors to climate change.
> 
> I can foresee a more ideological green government at some point dis-incentivising diesel machinery even before viable options become available. Dumber things have happened when politicians try and build their green street cred.



Electric tractors are certainly on their way, but I wouldn’t worry about the government going after farmers diesels, it will happen over time naturally.


----------



## divs4ever (3 May 2022)

Watch: Electric Bus In Paris Spontaneously Explodes​




__





						Watch: Electric Bus In Paris Spontaneously Explodes  | ZeroHedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com
				




 good thing it wasn't a gas-powered one or Putin would have been blamed


----------



## Value Collector (3 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> Watch: Electric Bus In Paris Spontaneously Explodes​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you see this Gas bus explode in Sydney last year? Probably not, only electric vehicles make global news when they catch fire.

But you rest assured electric vehicles are far less likely to catch fire that petrol and gas ones, it’s just we don’t here about them as often because it’s not “News Worthy”, but electric vehicles are a new thing, so negative click bait articles sell.


----------



## JohnDe (3 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Good article on the state of play with charging infrastructure and this is on the East coast where charging infrastructure is great compared to everywhere else in Australia.
> It kind of explains extremely well what @JohnDe and myself have been saying about infrastructure needs to be built before incentivising the purchase of E.V's.
> I've edited out a lot of the article as it is very long.
> https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/...m.au&utm_content=article_3&utm_medium=partner
> ...




That was a good read, thanks.

Points out and confirms the main issue and where money should be spent - "infrastructure"

"_This trip proved to me that while range anxiety is no longer the issue, charger anxiety is._" "_Interstate EV travel is possible, but until the infrastructure catches up, it’s far from enjoyable._"


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## Value Collector (3 May 2022)

Autonomous electric tractor.


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## divs4ever (3 May 2022)

have been 200 metres away from a diesel tractor  that blew up and was rocked by that  blast  ( the owner/driver  was mostly unharmed because he was trying to extinguish  his burning wool jumper at the time  by swimming in the dam .. fully clothed )

 yep things go BANG , but a BIG problem when it happens in busy parts of the city/town  ( i can't believe those Sydneysiders stayed so close for so long  .. oh wait i remember them walking in front of Greyhound buses while reading phone texts  .. just another day in Sydney it seems , not so news-worthy )


----------



## Smurf1976 (3 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Did you see this Gas bus explode in Sydney last year? Probably not, only electric vehicles make global news when they catch fire.



I used to travel home on a (diesel) bus that routinely had flames coming out the exhaust as we slowly progressed up the hill.

It did stop following motorists tailgating, very effective for that.

Always thought it would end badly someday but never did.

Going back even further, the bus I went to school on had the engine up the front, inside the bus, between the driver and the door under a metal cover which used to get seriously hot. Primary school kids having to walk past that hot metal box to get off the bus - someone would have a fit about that these days.  

ICE's have their quirks that we've managed to live with so I'm sure that any issues with EV's can be worked around.


----------



## divs4ever (3 May 2022)

now days they have a fit if the air-conditioning fails


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## Value Collector (3 May 2022)

divs4ever said:


> have been 200 metres away from a diesel tractor  that blew up and was rocked by that  blast  ( the owner/driver  was mostly unharmed because he was trying to extinguish  his burning wool jumper at the time  by swimming in the dam .. fully clothed )
> 
> yep things go BANG , but a BIG problem when it happens in busy parts of the city/town  ( i can't believe those Sydneysiders stayed so close for so long  .. oh wait i remember them walking in front of Greyhound buses while reading phone texts  .. just another day in Sydney it seems , not so news-worthy )



Yep, I guess when ever we concentrate and store a lot of chemical energy in vehicle there is a small chance it will suffer an unplanned rapid dissipation.


----------



## JohnDe (5 May 2022)

It's all about the infrastructure, but the planning must come before the rhetoric.



> The peak national body for carparks has criticised Labor’s plan to create an electric vehicle corridor across the Nullarbor, arguing there is no plan for how charging stations can be rolled out safely in capital cities where demand will be greatest.
> Parking Australia chief executive Stuart Norman told The Australian that money was being thrown at growing demand for electric vehicles without any serious work having first been completed into pinpointing the best locations for charging stations and how they could be rolled out.
> 
> “Is the Nullarbor the best place for these? Probably not,” Mr Stuart said. “The majority of electric vehicles are going to be in and around capital cities.”
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (5 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> It's all about the infrastructure, but the planning must come before the rhetoric.



They have probably been listening to the crowd that say 

“Electric cars are useless until they will do 1000km a charge, and there are recharging stations every 25kms on the Nullarbor” 

I reckon a partnership with coles and Woolies would be good, if every coles and Woolies had two fast chargers with two outlets on each, eg 4 charging bays, and every petrol station had 4 charging bays, that’s all you would need really.


----------



## JohnDe (6 May 2022)

More problems with infrastructure -



> “Beyond a joke:” Number of busted EV chargers causes concern as uptake jumps​
> Australians drivers are going electric in unprecedented numbers, despite the severe limitations of the global supply constraints, but some are finding that going on long road trips is proving a risky business because of the number of EV fast chargers that are not working.
> 
> The Driven drew attention to the issue last month, pointing out the growing number of charging stations that were broken, some of them due to flooding events, but most of them because of the lack of spare parts or slow response to maintenance.
> ...












						"Beyond a joke:" Number of busted EV chargers causes concern as uptake jumps
					

Going on a long road trip in an EV is proving a risky business because of the number of EV fast chargers that are not working.




					thedriven.io


----------



## Boggo (6 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> More problems with infrastructure -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




ESB is the Irish Electricity Supply Board. 

Cost of charging jumps.


----------



## JohnDe (6 May 2022)

Top Reason To Buy A Tesla: Ross Gerber​


----------



## SirRumpole (8 May 2022)

The political parties policies on EV's.









						Will we be saying goodbye to petrol? What the major parties are planning for electric vehicles
					

Soaring petrol prices across Australia have sparked fuel security concerns. But it has also sparked hope in Australians — hope that their future government will invest in a transport system that isn't reliant on oil, but electricity.   Here, we break down what the major parties are offering...




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## JohnDe (8 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The political parties policies on EV's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Labor's plan will greatly benefit me, a business owner with no mortgage and I have money in the bank. Under Labor's plan I could sell the remaining ICEVs (for a profit due to shortages) and replace them with EVs at a government discount on the import Tarif and fringe benefits tax. Though I would have to wait 9 to 12 months for EV stock (maybe longer) due to shortages because China is shut down, Euro and USA manufacturers can't get battery stock or the required materials, and Tesla are pre-sold 12 months ahead.

The Coalition's plan will give me no discount to purchase a new EV. Though they will concentrate on increasing the number of charging stations across Australia and have some sort of plan for home smart charger installation. They also want to future proof commercial and long distance transport with charging and hydrogen inrastructure.

Which is better for me? The tax savings from Labor, they will leave more money in my pocket and my business account.

Which is better for my family? The infrastructure from the Coalition. My kids and young relatives are just starting off, they have more important things to spend their money on than a new car. My elderly relatives have no intention of buying a new car, most will never be able to afford one. Infrastructure  is the most important thing for my family. When the young have secured their future and ready to purchase an EV they will need charging stations, because there will be a high demand as EV numbers increase. There will also need to be refuelling infrastructure for long haul transport as the vehicles are converted.
Lastly, infrastructure builds keep our tax money in our country for our workers.

It is pointless trying to artificially increase the demand for EVs when there is a world shortage. All the increased demand will do is increase the price, and any tax discounts will be eaten up by the inflation of demand price rises.

I'm old enough and comfortable enough to be able to turn down the savings that Labor is offering me, and instead take the infrastructure build for my family's future.

*The Coalition*​​The government will focus on four streams of key infrastructure and technology investment:​​
Public electric vehicle charging and hydrogen refuelling infrastructure
Heavy and long distance vehicle fleets
Light vehicle commercial fleets
Household smart charging
The Coalition plans to fund *50,000 charging stations in Australian homes*, in a bid to encourage more people to buy electric vehicles.​​The strategy does not include subsidies or tax incentives that would make electric vehicles more affordable.​​*Labor*​​How do they plan to do this?​As part of the discount, Labor will exempt electric cars below the luxury car tax threshold ($79,659 in 2021-22) from:​​
*Import tariffs:* A 5 per cent tax on some imported electric cars
*Fringe benefits tax:* A 47 per cent tax on electric cars that are provided through work for private use
The federal opposition's aim with this cut-off is to encourage car manufacturers to import and supply more affordable electric models in Australia.​​Labor will also consider how the Commonwealth's existing investment in infrastructure can be leveraged to increase charging stations across the country.​


----------



## sptrawler (8 May 2022)

@JohnDe which is the biggest vote grabber? The thought of money in the punters pocket, or infrastructure to help everyone.


----------



## JohnDe (8 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @JohnDe which is the biggest vote grabber? The thought of money in the punters pocket, or infrastructure to help everyone.




Most times it's the money in the pocket.

The problem is that the money will only go to those that can already afford an EV. And with the false hope that more demand will sway vehicle manufacturers to send more EVs to Australia, even though there is a world shortage with all buyers across the globe on a waiting list. The only way some manufacturers will send us more EVs is that they will get a higher sale price than other markets, it would also open the flood gates on all sorts of inappropriate product for our market.

I hope that people see that Australia must first build the foundation for EVs, get the power grid sorted, build the charging infrastructure.

We still have about 5 years before vehicle manufacturers will be able to supply enough product to cover demand. When that happens the price of EVs will naturally fall.

Governments that discount new cars will cause used car prices to plummet, this will hurt the people less able to buy new and with the greater debt burden.

The line "but more new sales will create more used EVs" will take 2 to 4 years to eventuate, most new car buyers keep their car for 3 plus years.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Labor's plan will greatly benefit me, a business owner with no mortgage and I have money in the bank. Under Labor's plan I could sell the remaining ICEVs (for a profit due to shortages) and replace them with EVs at a government discount on the import Tarif and fringe benefits tax. Though I would have to wait 9 to 12 months for EV stock (maybe longer) due to shortages because China is shut down, Euro and USA manufacturers can't get battery stock or the required materials, and Tesla are pre-sold 12 months ahead.
> 
> The Coalition's plan will give me no discount to purchase a new EV. Though they will concentrate on increasing the number of charging stations across Australia and have some sort of plan for home smart charger installation. They also want to future proof commercial and long distance transport with charging and hydrogen inrastructure.
> 
> ...



The U.K is having exactly the problem we are talking about @JohnDe  and our problem is 1,000 times bigger than theirs.


----------



## qldfrog (11 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The U.K is having exactly the problem we are talking about @JohnDe  and our problem is 1,000 times bigger than theirs.




I think at one stage, the pro EV need to be realistic: the real issue is $, then absence of model suited to demand..no 4wd ute or farm workhouse..just miriads of EV corrolas clones with an extra 50k on price tags which is bloody a lot for a big screen on the drivers seat.
The rest is trivial ..most people have 2 cars so as long as you can drive back home on a charge, who cares about chargers...
Give me an EV or hybrid at 35k or a work ute ev at 50k and you get a sale even if just ev at 35k, then 8 keep ute and go shopping in ev.....
$ $ $


----------



## JohnDe (11 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The U.K is having exactly the problem we are talking about @JohnDe  and our problem is 1,000 times bigger than theirs.





Looks like the UK government have committed a lot of dollars for charging infrastructure, but is there a plan?

The USA example is what we don't want to follow. They have a good number of charging stations, but they have been installed in poor locations, with no coordination with the several companies and government on the best locations, numbers and charging type. Maintenance is also an issue, with charging stations regularly failing and long repair times.


----------



## JohnDe (11 May 2022)

The WA government announced -


WA Government to allocate $36.5 million for zero emissions vehicle rebates
$22.6 million committed to improve EV charging infrastructure
The second part is a start, but why does the government feel the need to give tax rebates to people that can afford a new car? Use that money and build a strong power grid and charging infrastructure. That will give people confidence to get an EV.









						WA Government announces $60 million EV package, road user charge from 2027
					

Rebates and charging infrastructure at the core of pre-Budget commitment




					www.whichcar.com.au


----------



## rederob (11 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The second part is a start, but why does the government feel the need to give tax rebates to people that can afford a new car? Use that money and build a strong power grid and charging infrastructure. That will give people confidence to get an EV.



Surely the fact that people can't get their hands on decent EVs means we don't have to worry about demand.  That's happening while we know there is a pathetic charging infrastructure, so the problem is a bit like "range anxiety" in that it's more a perception than a reality.

From what I have gleaned the bigger problem with chargers is getting them repaired.  And the solution is really simple if each of the State/Territory automobile clubs are given responsibility and recompense to employ and train staff to get the job done.  I reckon even @sptrawler could be given a new lease of life as one who fixes up charging units, even if just to enjoy the acronym.

An alternative of sorts to the problem of subsidising more-expensive EVs is to reduce the luxury car tax starting point to something like $50k, while simultaneously scaling EV purchasing incentives in price range increments up to $50k.  Under such an arrangement the highest level of incentive would be offered to EVs under $30k (yes - there are none now, but they will surely come with enough incentive) and progressively reduce until the $50k cap is hit.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2022)

The reality is people are spending $50k+ on the most popular vehicles now, so price isn't the issue, the issue is convenience.
If there is plenty of charging options, people will buy the E.V's, taxpayers money can be much better spent, even if it is only to reduce debt IMO.
But if you are going to push for E.V subsidies, that's fine I just received an SMS from the car supplier that mine hasn't even been given a VIN number yet, so it isn't even on the production line.
Any subsidy will be gratefully accepted, I would rather see the money go to infrastructure for everyone, but I guess I should just adopt the me, me , me attitude of you blokes. 🥳


----------



## rederob (11 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The reality is people are spending $50k+ on the most popular vehicles now, so price isn't the issue, the issue is convenience.



You mean they are prepared to spend a lot to be even more inconvenienced?


sptrawler said:


> If there is plenty of charging options, people will buy the E.V's, taxpayers money can be much better spent, even if it is only to reduce debt IMO.



Hold on, people are buying EVs, to the point some will be waiting up to a year to get them.


sptrawler said:


> But if you are going to push for E.V subsidies ...



I have been consistent in my points regarding how to better target subsidies so they would be mostly available for an end of the market that less well-off people would tap in to.


sptrawler said:


> Any subsidy will be gratefully accepted, I would rather see the money go to infrastructure for everyone, but I guess I should just adopt the me, me , me attitude of you blokes. 🥳



I actually write to political parties about their policies being ineffective when I am not trying to educate you.  However, given that industry's big players cannot get through to government that they need better policies to improve NEV uptake, my voice is very much in the wilderness.
That will change markedly when NEV ownership is upwards of 20% and their collective voice can sway election outcomes.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2022)

rederob said:


> You mean they are prepared to spend a lot to be even more inconvenienced?



The Top-Selling Cars in Australia​Posted by Dean Heckscher 04/05/2022


Buying a new car can be an exciting time, but with plenty of options on the market, it can quickly become a bit overwhelming. To help narrow down the search, the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries releases a monthly report on the top-selling cars in Australia, showing which models are proving most popular on our roads. Check this page for regular updates on the best-selling cars, with April 2022 top-sellers listed below:

Toyota Hilux
Ford Ranger
Toyota RAV4
Mazda CX-5
Isuzu D-MAX



rederob said:


> Hold on, people are buying EVs, to the point some will be waiting up to a year to get them.



So why give incentives to buy them?



rederob said:


> I have been consistent in my points regarding how to better target subsidies so they would be mostly available for an end of the market that less well-off people would tap in to.



The less well off will no doubt be buying entry level E.V's or E.V's that have depleted range due to battery degradation and are second hand, so charging infrastructure will be more useful to them, as they will have far less range.
How you think a subsidy for a wealthy person to buy an E.V, is better directed than infrastructure for the pleb who has a second hand E.V that will need more charging options is better focused, just shows the elite left wing mentality at its best IMO.

But I do love the banter.


----------



## JohnDe (11 May 2022)

I would love to hear how the politician's throwing money at people wanting to purchase an EV will get stock over to Australia.

"_*At the moment, there are simply not enough electric vehicles being made to meet that demand.*_" 

_"Volkswagen, the largest car manufacturer in the world, recently announced it had sold out of electric vehicles in the US and Europe for the rest of 2022. Ford’s E-Transit sold out before it had even started making them.

These backlogs will take a long time to clear, and will be a major headache for everyone concerned. Manufacturers and customers will be frustrated, while politicians relying on electric vehicles for the future of transport policy may need to adjust their expectations and demands."_
​


> *Electric car supplies are running out – and could drastically slow down the journey to net-zero*​Published: May 11, 2022
> 
> The road map to replacing old fashioned carbon emitting cars with electric vehicles is well developed – at least in theory. All the major car makers (and even some of the smaller ones) are publicly committed to electric.
> 
> ...












						Electric car supplies are running out – and could drastically slow down the journey to net-zero
					

Governments may be forced to put back deadlines to shift away from petrol and diesel.




					theconversation.com


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I would love to hear how the politician's throwing money at people wanting to purchase an EV will get stock over to Australia.



You're missing the point, it is about the politicians future income, not about what works for the chooks, just keep feeding the chooks what they want to eat. 🤣
If we had politicians that wanted to improve Australia, we wouldn't spending hundreds of billions on more infrastructure to encourage people to live in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth.
We would be spending that money to irrigate the North of Australia and develop whole new industries and opportunities for young people to grow businesses and futures, rather than thrashing around in a cesspit of house flipping in Sydney/ Melbourne.
But obviously that isn't schick or trendy.


----------



## rederob (11 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I would love to hear how the politician's throwing money at people wanting to purchase an EV will get stock over to Australia.



The main issue here is that very few production lines are set up for RHDs.


JohnDe said:


> "_*At the moment, there are simply not enough electric vehicles being made to meet that demand.*_"
> 
> _"Volkswagen, the largest car manufacturer in the world, recently announced it had sold out of electric vehicles in the US and Europe for the rest of 2022. Ford’s E-Transit sold out before it had even started making them._



Volkswagen produce less than 10% 0f all EVs, but at least they are decent cars:
*Plug-in car sales in Q1 **2022** (vs previous year):*​
Tesla: *310,411* and 15.5% share (vs 16%)
BYD: *285,849* and 14.3% share
SAIC (incl. SAIC-GM-Wuling): *170,454* and 8.5% share
Volkswagen Group: *154,824* and 8.8% share (vs 12%)
Geely-Volvo: *110,253* and 5.6% share



JohnDe said:


> _These backlogs will take a long time to clear, and will be a major headache for everyone concerned. Manufacturers and customers will be frustrated, while politicians relying on electric vehicles for the future of transport policy may need to adjust their expectations and demands."_​



That will be the case everywhere except China.  
Once BYD crank up their RHD production lines they will have cars that land in Australia from $30k upwards... only to be made less affordable by the many taxes and fees levied.  I suspect BYD's success will be quickly capitalised on by other Chinese automakers.


----------



## JohnDe (11 May 2022)

I find it quite funny and strange that people, like Albanese, who have no practical experience of driving an EV for every day living and have not felt the challenges of charging, think that they are experts and can tell the rest of us what is required.

Range anxiety is an issue, but it is small compared to charging anxiety.

Australia does not have enough charging infrastructure, some states are an embarrassment - SA, WA, Tasmania and the NT.

The two most populous states are better covered but the number of chargers are inadequate. In Victoria I went to charge at a local Supercharger on a Saturday but there was a line of EVs waiting to charge. I drove about 15 minutes to another location and it took me 10 minutes to find the destination chargers in the local supermarket carpark. The charger was a standard type and would have taken 4 hours. I left and went back to the supercharger, that day took me 2 hours to get a 20 minute fast charge.

If governments coordinate charging infrastructure builds with business we would have charging infrastructure ready for when manufacturers become able to supply enough EVs to keep up with demand, and there would be no arguments from anti EV groups about charging problems and long distance travel.

Another example; my wife will be working 3 days a week at a winery an hour from home. She tested the route, which involved driving on the expressway. Drove there, spent some time inside, drove back and her EV consumed just under half the battery charge. Technically she will have no problem, as long as she plugs in at home. But what happens if something goes wrong? The home charging fails, or she forgets to plug in?

With an ICEV there are petrol stations everywhere, but with the EV we have only one supercharger near us and it’s in the opposite direction, which is in the city centre and always full. My wife would have to find a destination charger, which are slow. A supercharger would only need to be plugged in for 5-10 minutes for enough charge for the two way drive, whereas a destination charger would require a minimum of 30 minutes.

Demand for EVs is very high, supply is very low. Manufacturers can not build enough, China production has stalled, VW have sold all 2022 production already. Governments could slash all taxes on EVs but it’s not going to bring any more stock because there is no stock.

Any politician that give tax benefits to people that can afford a new car are just buying votes.

The money wasted on tax cuts for new EV purchases should be directed to charging infrastructure so that when the average person finally gets into an EV they won’t have any fear about using it to drive to a job in the country or going on holidays interstate.


----------



## Value Collector (11 May 2022)

I rented a Corolla Hybrid while interstate the past few days, not a bad little car and super fuel efficient.

We did 297 km on 12 litres of fuel which cost $22.40.

The same driving in my model 3 would have cost $10.60, but still the Corolla hybrid seems way better than your average ICE.

Only bad things about the Corolla is that it’s built like an Ice car, so its full of buttons, dials, knobs, switches, gauges and shifters etc that don’t really need to be there, and seem excessive after driving a Tesla for so long, for example annoyingly it has an on/off button you have to press before you can drive and before you can lock the car, so many times I got out of the car and tried to lock it as I was walking away only to realise I had to go back and switch it off, surely it should realise that me getting out of the car, shutting the door and pressing the lock button means I want to turn the thing off.

Also, the lack of power while over taking is a bit shocking after being used to the instant power of a full electric.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2022)

In a word @JohnDe people are self centred dicks, they don't think beyond there own needs and wants, the ones who glue themselves to the road and are most vocal on forums mostly don't even drive an E.V and actually have window stickers saying save the whales and have the most polluting cars.
The most christian people, don't have to go to church to be christian.
Those who believe that getting an E.V if they can afford one, shouldn't need an incentive IMO, they should think that money should be spent on infrastructure to support those who can't afford an E.V with great range or haven't got the ability to just plug it in to their solar house.
Maybe it will be like phones where it is pay as you go, which isn't much good if there is no where to plug in and pay.
I'm just pleased @JohnDe that you have the same holistic view.


----------



## Value Collector (11 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I find it quite funny and strange that people, like Albanese, who have no practical experience of driving an EV for every day living and have not felt the challenges of charging, think that they are experts and can tell the rest of us what is required.
> 
> Range anxiety is an issue, but it is small compared to charging anxiety.
> 
> ...



It’s always best to just join the line waiting to super charge, they move pretty quickly, especially if there is 6 to 8 bays, there is always a few cars finishing up and getting ready to leave, it’s a bit like the self check out at coles, the line can look long, but because there is 8 checkouts it doesn’t really take that long.


----------



## JohnDe (11 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It’s always best to just join the line waiting to super charge, they move pretty quickly, especially if there is 6 to 8 bays, there is always a few cars finishing up and getting ready to leave, it’s a bit like the self check out at coles, the line can look long, but because there is 8 checkouts it doesn’t really take that long.




Yes, I realised that later. Though being a Saturday morning, everyone was out getting coffee and brunch, the carpark was full and I couldn’t see any room to join the line. That’s what made me decide to look for another charging location but there were no other superchargers around. 

Imagine what it will be like in another 12 months as the number of EVs increases with greater pace but charging infrastructure moves at a snail’s pace.


----------



## sptrawler (11 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes, I realised that later. Though being a Saturday morning, everyone was out getting coffee and brunch, the carpark was full and I couldn’t see any room to join the line. That’s what made me decide to look for another charging location but there were no other superchargers around.
> 
> Imagine what it will be like in another 12 months as the number of EVs increases with greater pace but charging infrastructure moves at a snail’s pace.



That's exactly right, you can be smug, until your just one in the queue, jeez people irritate me. 
I can't wait until those who want incentives, before infrastructure, come back to their car and find the connector has been ripped off the side of the model 3, what a hoot that will be.


----------



## JohnDe (11 May 2022)

“As governments across the country seek to capitalise on the growing demand for critical minerals and rare earths, experts warn that, without proper investment, Australia could miss out on a share of a much larger industry: electric vehicles.”










						We 'dig them up and ship them out': Australia has critical minerals, so isn't it time for a domestic EV industry?
					

Australia has some of the largest critical mineral reserves in the world, but it's missing out on potentially huge profits. That's where a domestic electric vehicle industry could come in.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## rederob (12 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes, I realised that later. Though being a Saturday morning, everyone was out getting coffee and brunch, the carpark was full and I couldn’t see any room to join the line. That’s what made me decide to look for another charging location but there were no other superchargers around.
> 
> Imagine what it will be like in another 12 months as the number of EVs increases with greater pace but charging infrastructure moves at a snail’s pace.



Imagine 3 more years of Coalition policy!
Under Morrison Australia has been a backwater on most things, and it has been the States stepping up to fill the void.
The question of why we are where we are has a really simple answer - and it should not be "that's not my job." 
Although Scotty from Marketing might be able to update this classic message ...



Aside from various apps that tell you where chargers are, there's no national roadmap telling us where they are going to pop up next.  Nor is there any coordination between States to ensure crossing borders is a straightforward matter. 

As I said a long way back, if you want to enjoy an EV for long trips then buy a Tesla.  But if you are the average consumer with a round trip of less than 50km each day then overnight charging will be fine 99% of the time.

Right now EV ownership and aspiration is barely vote winning, so waving around a few hundred million as purchasing incentives gets Brownie/Greenie points but not much more.  It really boils down to having no hard target to reach CO2 zero emissions and therefore no need to worry about tangible policies to help get us there.  In another thread there was a comment about whether or not the government has a laissez faire approach to energy/electricity and I would say that's about right.  There are "Plans" but nobody is taking *responsibility *to turn them into actions.  So again we have States stepping in to do their bit, but without coordination and, therefore, without consistency.  

Changing the subject to ICEVs, before flying back to Brisbane my brother went to fill his car with petrol at Costco's cheaper fuel outlet near the Perth Airport.  But as the queue was back to Dunreath Drive roundabout he gave it a miss.  The point here is that it looks like ICEV drivers are now willing to queue for hours to get cheap petrol!


----------



## JohnDe (12 May 2022)

"Most people are already aware of the “supply chain crisis” that has plagued the world since 2020. Unfortunately, the supply chain has not fully recovered."

More reason why planning infrastructure builds is required, we can't be wasteful with different companies putting up all sorts of charging infrastructure in random locations. In-depth planning is required, so as to be efficient with what is available.

Build the best charging infrastructure possible, keep our tax dollars in our country by paying our workers to build.



> How the Semiconductor Shortage Will Affect the Electric Vehicle DCFC Supply Chain
> 
> *Most people are already aware of the “supply chain crisis” that has plagued the world since 2020. It  started with mass buying of essentials during the COVID pandemic, and only worsened as the pandemic brought the world to a screeching halt with a combination of lockdowns, life changes and deaths. With vaccines now readily available and increasingly common, various sectors of the world economy are hoping to return to business as usual or at least as close to it as they can manage.*
> 
> ...


----------



## rederob (12 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> More reason why planning infrastructure builds is required, we can't be wasteful with different companies putting up all sorts of charging infrastructure in random locations. In-depth planning is required, so as to be efficient with what is available.



Just remember that over* 3 years ago *issues surrounding EV uptake were being formally discussed by key industry players, and our policy-blind government chose not to see the writing on the wall:
*"In 2019, the Distributed Energy Integration Program (DEIP) EV Grid Integration Working Group (‘Working Group’) identified that the absence of comprehensive Vehicle-Grid Integration (VGI) standards could increase the risk of an inefficient transition to electrified transportation for consumers, potentially leading to additional costs and reduced uptake of EVs."*​Every issue covered by the above link remains unsettled today, as well as the issue of training EV charger technicians *and *how the network would be maintained.
While I doubt Labor - should they win the next election - will get on top of these issues, they cannot do worse than we have experienced to date.  And as competent as AEMO may be in many areas of "electrification," they are not the final decision makers.  As it stands it looks like industry will take over and the most cashed up players will roll out the bulk of the EV charging network at locations that deliver highest returns, as distinct from greatest consumer utility.  That looks like being left to Councils and community organisations who will bid for funded chargers, and be left with nothing extra to continue their maintenance.


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## sptrawler (12 May 2022)

New electric car taxes and rebates revealed for Western Australia
					

Australia's biggest mining state has announced a spate of new policies to increase electric vehicle uptake.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2022)

rederob said:


> While I doubt Labor - should they win the next election - will get on top of these issues,



Considering they haven't said they are going to put anything into charging infrastructure, that is probably the most intelligent political statement you've made. 🤣


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## JohnDe (12 May 2022)

Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging Network Project​
The Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging Network Project will play a significant part in improving Australia’s infrastructure and remove one of the major barriers that limits the adoption of electric vehicles (EVs).

The charging stations will enable all modern EV drivers to confidently drive between Australia’s major cities. In this project, Chargefox will secure 21 locations for the network on major driving routes across the country.

How the project works​The Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging project is the development and construction of at least 21 ultra-rapid EV charging sites along major driving routes between Brisbane and Adelaide along the coast of Eastern Australia, and in and around Perth in Western Australia, at approximately 200 kilometres apart.

Each site will hold at least two DC charging stations. The combined power of the charging stations will be a minimum of 300 kW, with the ability for any single station to have a capacity of at least 150 kW. All sites will be powered by renewable energy, in some cases through on-site solar coupled with battery storage.

The project will allow all EV models currently available for sale in Australia to charge through its stations.


----------



## qldfrog (12 May 2022)

Let's follow the Reset recipe
Look at woke 2.0 Jacinta:








						New Zealand’s ‘green car’ policy slams the brakes on ute sales
					

Ute buyers in New Zealand have been left fuming and out of pocket after the government introduced vehicle emissions targets – and financial penalties




					www.drive.com.au


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## rederob (12 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging Network Project​
> The Chargefox Electric Vehicle Charging Network Project will play a significant part in improving Australia’s infrastructure and remove one of the major barriers that limits the adoption of electric vehicles (EVs).
> 
> The charging stations will enable all modern EV drivers to confidently drive between Australia’s major cities. In this project, Chargefox will secure 21 locations for the network on major driving routes across the country.



And this:
Chargefox partners with RAA to add over 530 EV charging plugs to the South Australian charging network​Chargefox is the biggest and fastest growing open charging network in Australia for modern EVs.  Their ultra-rapid charging network is a combination of investment through the Australian Motoring Services (NRMA, RACV, RACQ, RAA, RAC, and RACT) group, Wilson Transformers and Greg Roebuck (the founder of Carsales).


----------



## rederob (12 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Considering they haven't said they are going to put anything into charging infrastructure, that is probably the most intelligent political statement you've made. 🤣



*Labor *will consider how the Commonwealth’s existing investment in infrastructure can be leveraged *to increase charging stations *across the country and consider how other existing Commonwealth investments, including in its fleet, property and leases, can also be leveraged.

Then there's the Green's:
"The* Greens’ plan* would include an additional $2 billion that would be invested in a publicly owned fast-charging network, to help ensure drivers have ready access to charging infrastructure."​​Or this?


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## JohnDe (12 May 2022)

The US experience of government rebates - 

Wealthy drivers often benefit more from EV incentives​are EV tax credits helping all electric-car shoppers equally? It does not seem likely. See why federal electric vehicle tax credits, which were meant to help shoppers make the switch, may only be helping those who don’t even need them.​​78 percent of the [EV tax credits] were claimed by people making at least $100,000 per year; 7 percent were claimed by people making at least $1 million a year.” This is according to an analysis by the Congressional Research Service.​​EV tax credits may also be rewarding wealthier buyers more than middle-class buyers because all-electric cars and EVs with the biggest batteries tend to offer the most credit. However, those are the same cars that tend to be the most expensive.​​According to one study, only 17% of EV buyers said that the EV tax credit convinced them to buy their cars—the remaining 83% claimed that they would have bought the vehicle with or without the credit.​


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## Value Collector (12 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> According to one study, only 17% of EV buyers said that the EV tax credit convinced them to buy their cars—the remaining 83% claimed that they would have bought the vehicle with or without the credit.



I wonder what percentage would have bought the car with or without government incentives for charging stations?

(I am not arguing against the government incentives for charging infrastructure, just pointing out that a large number would obviously answer that they would have bought regardless)

One thing that I don’t like with the government incentivised charging locations, is that they tend to be the ones everyone is claiming are always broken,  because once the company gets the incentive, there is no further incentive to keep them running, they are also small.

Where as Teslas network has 6-8 bays the majority of the time, and are well maintained because they are used regularly, and generate income for Tesla.

I accept it’s a tough chicken and egg situation, but until there is higher utilisation of these third party networks, I think they will struggle.

I like the model Ampol have said they will have eg having chargers at their regular stations, the stand alone ones can end up being forgotten.


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## JohnDe (12 May 2022)

*Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Infrastructure*​​*Need for EV charging infrastructure*​​A lack of public charging infrastructure is regularly cited as a significant barrier to EV uptake . The planning and installation of the right type of EV charging infrastructure at the right location minimises the perceived risk of 'range anxiety' and increases public awareness of EVs.​​Understanding how EV drivers charge their EVs is important in understanding EV charging infrastructure. A key difference between internal combustion engine (ICE) and plug-in electric vehicles is the way they are refuelled or charged. ICE vehicles are generally refuelled on a 'fill up' basis; that is, when the petrol tank is near empty the driver fills the tank to full. This is because the only place ICE vehicles can be refuelled is at a service station, which requires a specific decision to visit whilst on-route or as the sole reason for the trip.​


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## mullokintyre (12 May 2022)

Volkswagon have announced they will release an EV ute, reinvigorating the old ”scout” brand.
The driven
Volkswagen will launch an all-electric off-road utility truck under its former sub-brand, Scout.
Volkswagen will build the new all-electric Scout range in the US for the US market. Scout will become a brand in its own right, sitting alongside the likes of Audi, Porsche, Seat, Škoda and Cupra.
Group CEO Herbert Diess said electrifying the brand provides a “historic opportunity to enter the highly attractive pick-up and R-SUV segment as a Group.”
If its as good as the Amarok ICE it will be a winner.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (12 May 2022)

More on the W.A announcement.








						Electric vehicle tax to be introduced as WA government unveils 'clean energy car fund'
					

The McGowan Labor government will allocate $60 million in the state budget to accelerate the use of zero emission vehicles, which will include rebates for electric vehicle purchases, but there's a catch.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
The McGowan Government's state budget, to be handed down on Thursday, will include $60 million to accelerate the use of zero-emission vehicles. 

This includes $36.5 million for $3,500 rebates for the first 10,000 people who buy an electric vehicle with a price tag of less than $70,000.
There will also be $22.6 million allocated in the budget to expand WA's electric vehicle charging network. 

The government will pay for half the cost of a charging station installed by a local government, small-to-medium-sized business, or a not-for-profit organisation on their premises.
The Premier also promised to extend the network of charging stations in regional areas to encourage people to drive their electric vehicles out of the city and around the state.

More than $2.9 million will be spent on eight new charging stations on a section of Australia's Highway 1 between Norseman and Eucla.

"Unfortunately, we have to fund the roads, we have to put money into maintenance, and we have to have a funding source for that," Premier Mark McGowan said.

The tax has been set at 2.5 cents per kilometre for electric and hydrogen vehicles and 2 cents per kilometre for plug-in hybrid vehicles. The rate will rise with inflation.
Noah Schultz-Byard, SA director at The Australia Institute, said it was "a backward and unnecessary step" especially given the fuel excise is levied by the Commonwealth and that it goes into general revenue, which is not specifically used for road funding.


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## JohnDe (13 May 2022)

"The biggest hindrance to the growth of the EV market overall in Australia is the lack of charging stations and it is a classic catch-22 rule."​​


> Australian Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Points Report 2022 – Do We Have Enough?​
> EVs in Australia vs the rest of the world
> 
> In 2022, the hype of electric vehicles (EVs) continues to grow in Australia and the world over. They are considered the future of transport and will help achieve aggressive net-zero targets set by many countries at COP26, last year in Glasgow.
> ...













						Australian Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Points Report 2022 – Do We Have Enough?
					

Read Savvy's article on the state of electric vehicle (EV) charging points in Australia and find out if we have enough for the demand.




					www.savvy.com.au


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## sptrawler (13 May 2022)

__





						Heck Yes, Subaru’s First Electric Car Is Coming to Australia in 2023
					





					www.msn.com


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## JohnDe (13 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




About time. A good mate works at Subaru and I've been asking him over a couple of years about Subaru's EV future, they have been dragged to the party.


----------



## rederob (13 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> About time. A good mate works at Subaru and I've been asking him over a couple of years about Subaru's EV future, they have been dragged to the party.



I think these EVs are made in China under joint venture arrangements with GAC and/or FAW, and are a rebadged *Toyota bZ4X* with some  changes.
Hard to see them priced below AU$65k so they need to be better than Teslas, which is a bit of a stretch imho.
I did read that they sold out in *USA *within 3 days, and presently are experiencing delays as a result of China's covid policies and lockdowns, although they are also blaming chip shortages.
Either way, another entrant will be good to see, even if its a year away.


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## rederob (15 May 2022)

As good as VW are as automakers, I doubt this is going to happen:
*"VW revealed stepped up **ambitions **on Thursday to become the world’s biggest EV maker in just three years’ time, overtaking Tesla"*​Tesla has been pro-active in securing their necessary supply chains over recent years and still cannot meet demand.  Even Tesla's *Cybertruck* production has been delayed to late 2023 - deliveries in 2024 - with new orders slated for 2027! 
VW will be severely hampered by having relatively limited EV production to date, and needing to massively transition existing ICE plants to NEVs. 
While BYD managed their transition to NEVs in what appeared to be 12 months, in reality it took several years just to get their new production lines in place.  It also appears their hybrids will provide a platform for their ICEV parts and warranty repairs, which is a smart move.  On the other hand Tesla is unencumbered by legacy ICE issues, so can devote massive expenditure into R&D which ensures it remains the BEV leader in almost every aspect of performance and production.


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## wayneL (15 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> "The biggest hindrance to the growth of the EV market overall in Australia is the lack of charging stations and it is a classic catch-22 rule."​​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cadogan has his say on that issue:



For me EVs don't make much sense at all *at this stage*.... As much as I love my new EG (electric generator that I posted about elsewhere)


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## sptrawler (15 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Cadogan has his say on that issue:
> 
> 
> For me EVs don't make much sense at all *at this stage*.... As much as I love my new EG (electric generator that I posted about elsewhere)



He is spot on with regard the wear and tear causing a problem with engaging the charge cable plug and the car.
I took an Ionic 5 for a 300klm round trip a couple of weeks ago, had exactly the same problem, plug the car in it locks in position, but the car says plug not fitted correctly.
As I've said it probably isn't an issue on the East Coast where there are heaps of chargers, over here in W.A it is hopeless.
The problem with PHEV's is the State Govt's are going to kill them, not only will you pay for fuel, you will pay 2c per klm for having a small battery in the car. The other problem with PHEV's is if you buy one with a decent battery/EV range, they cost about the same as a pure E.V.
So the problem still goes back to making E.V charging better and more readily available IMO.
It was quite a good video, I find his are a bit hit and miss, but I thought this was pretty well on the money.


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## sptrawler (17 May 2022)

Over the last couple of weeks I have seen quite a couple of trucks out and about, they appear to be renewing the white line road markings, one was in Mandurah, the other on the Forrest Highway, I wonder if it is a coincidence or that autonomous driving development is moving on and they require very well defined road markings?
Just a thought.









						EXCLUSIVE: Autonomous car of the future quietly tested on Australian roads
					

Your car of tomorrow may be able to drive itself, thanks – in part – to technology developed by Mercedes-Benz on public Australian roads.




					www.drive.com.au
				




A spokesperson for Mercedes-Benz confirmed it is using the vehicle for a range of international trials, in cooperation with US software firm Nvidia.
“The specific car you have provided photos of is part of a worldwide fleet of data collection vehicles currently testing our next generation [tech],” the spokesperson said.
“Automated driving systems, such as those offered in our driving assistance package, must be able to handle a large number of situations reliably and safely.
“The development of such systems is complex … With such test drives, the local information about infrastructure and traffic habits is collected.
“Country-specific peculiarities in infrastructure, traffic rules and the behaviour of other road users place very different demands on the sensors and algorithms of the vehicle.”
The standard Mercedes-Benz S-Class already features some of the most advanced driving tech available today, and is able to steer, accelerate, and brake by itself using inbuilt sensors.
With the addition of least 12 extra lidar and radar sensors, this suggests the modified vehicle is likely trialing advanced systems and near-complete autonomy.
_Drive_ understands the car is not currently permitted to drive unoccupied on public roads, and a qualified engineer remains behind the wheel at all times.
It’s currently unclear how many other cars Mercedes-Benz is currently testing Down Under, however the brand says it currently has 175 research vehicles stationed across the globe.


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## Value Collector (17 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Over the last couple of weeks I have seen quite a couple of trucks out and about, they appear to be renewing the white line road markings, one was in Mandurah, the other on the Forrest Highway, I wonder if it is a coincidence or that autonomous driving development is moving on and they require very well defined road markings?
> Just a thought.
> 
> 
> ...



The Tesla definitely defects road markings, it even animates markings like bicycle lanes on the screen as you drive past them, but it is also quite capable of detecting the edge of the road and identifying the centre if when no lines are marked.

But yeah as you drive it animates all the varies types of lines, eg single lines, double lines, dotted lines, etc etc. it even detects those white posts with the red reflector and witches hats etc.

The other day I stopped outside a school and the screen showed an animation of a lollipop man I front of my car holding a stop sign.

But obviously the better marked the roads are the better for every one humans and autopilots alike.


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## Value Collector (17 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The Tesla definitely defects road markings, it even animates markings like bicycle lanes on the screen as you drive past them, but it is also quite capable of detecting the edge of the road and identifying the centre if when no lines are marked.
> 
> But yeah as you drive it animates all the varies types of lines, eg single lines, double lines, dotted lines, etc etc. it even detects those white posts with the red reflector and witches hats etc.
> 
> ...



Found this video showing a Tesla driving autopilot with no lane markings.


----------



## wayneL (17 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Over the last couple of weeks I have seen quite a couple of trucks out and about, they appear to be renewing the white line road markings, one was in Mandurah, the other on the Forrest Highway, I wonder if it is a coincidence or that autonomous driving development is moving on and they require very well defined road markings?
> Just a thought.
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure I want to be on the same road as these things... mind you, they couldn't be any worse than Perth drivers.


----------



## JohnDe (17 May 2022)

wayneL said:


> Not sure I want to be on the same road as these things...




I think that every time I check my rear vision mirror for old cars, when I'm stopping faster than usual because of a traffic incident in front.


----------



## wayneL (17 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I think that every time I check my rear vision mirror for old cars, when I'm stopping faster than usual because of a traffic incident in front.




This is something that the bogans in HR Holdens don't seem to be able to understand, the closer you get, the more I back off the car in front of me


----------



## qldfrog (18 May 2022)

Les autorités de Columbus, dans l'Ohio, ont publié des images montrant le moment où une Tesla a foncé dans le centre de convention Greater Columbus le 4 mai dernier. Selon la police, le conducteur de la Telsa Model S de 2020 a déclaré avoir perdu le contrôle de ses freins, maintenant une vitesse de 110 km/h lorsque la voiture s'est écrasée. https://video.lefigaro.fr/figaro/vi...ande-vitesse-dans-un-batiment-aux-etats-unis/
Translation : tesla 0 building 1
Brakes have failed it seems...


----------



## sptrawler (19 May 2022)

Interesting, I wonder what has caused the brakes to be applied, battery material cost?








						Tesla Cybertruck pulled from sale in Australia, thousands of customers owed refunds
					

The controversially-styled Tesla Cybertruck electric pick-up is no longer available to order on Tesla Australia's website. What happens now to the customers who paid a $150 refundable deposit?




					www.drive.com.au
				



Electric-car giant Tesla has slammed the brakes on the sharply-styled Cybertruck for Australian customers.
Overnight, the Tesla Australia website stopped accepting $150 deposits for customers to place orders – and instead replaced the tab with a message that says "Get Updates" (see screenshot below).
As exclusively reported by Australian-based electric-car website _The Driven_: "The Tesla Cybertruck can no longer be reserved in Australia, after Tesla shut off reservations for the Cybertruck for markets outside North America."
The sudden shutdown of the Tesla Cybertruck's online ordering portal in Australia comes after repeated speculation the Cybertruck may be deemed too big for Australia – and follows reports there may not be a right-hand-drive version.
Tesla boss Elon Musk has also previously hinted the company might produce a slightly smaller pick-up for global markets such as Australia.


----------



## JohnDe (19 May 2022)

Who wants a new old mini?

*New Chinese EV Company Clones The Classic Mini*​​​​_Another Western automotive icon has fallen prey to China’s notoriously inventive electric car companies. After the Chevrolet Corvette and the Volkswagen Beetle it is now the classic Mini, a British city car produced by BMC and its successors from 1959 until 2000. The new Chinese EV version is a pretty good clone, with all sorts of trendy retro bits. The proportions seem spot on, and it has classy chromed bumpers, mirrors, and windshield wipers._​​​​_Even the antenna has some old-school vibe to it, and the alloy wheels look like they time-traveled from the 1960’s to today. But there are some differences too, most notably the battery pack under the floor of the vehicle. The body is a bit more smooth and streamlined than the original, especially at the front. Electrifying the Mini as a 2022 city car seems such a great idea. One may wonder why current owner BMW didn’t think of this themselves._​​_Well, they kind of did. Soon, production of an electric Mini for the Chinese car market is set to start at the new GWM-Mini joint venture. But that is a much bigger car, a Mini in name only. Interestingly, GWM is also the owner of the ORA brand, which produces the cloned Beetles._​


----------



## mullokintyre (19 May 2022)

volvo has cancelled all orders (including mine) for the XC40 recharge.
The driven.io


> Volvo has been forced to cancel scores of Australian orders for its popular pure-electric XC40 Recharge SUVs, as global supply constraints take their toll on production and deliveries.
> Volvo blamed the global semi-conductor shortage and the lingering impacts of the Covid-19 pandemic for the decision to cancel 166 Australian orders.
> It’s the latest in a string of roadblocks for the auto industry, and for Australia which finds itself at the end of the global queue for hard to obtain EVs, thanks to its lack of policies – in particular the absence of strict vehicle emission standards.



not a happy chappy after doing a lot of research and talking to EV owners.
I still fail to see why they keep pushing the idea that a lack of emissions standards is why we dont get more EV,s.
Is it so that as the ICE engines become uncompetitive, it allows the EV to be able to increase prices?
mick


----------



## JohnDe (19 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> volvo has cancelled all orders (including mine) for the XC40 recharge.
> The driven.io
> 
> not a happy chappy after doing a lot of research and talking to EV owners.
> ...




More proof that we don’t need MPs & vehicle manufacturers pumping false talk about Australia needing tax cuts to get EVs here. There is a world shortage.

Use those promises of tax cuts to instead fund infrastructure.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

This article might be of interest to those on here, who have recently bought a Tesla model 3.








						2021-2022 Tesla Model 3 recalled in Australia
					

A fault could cause the onboard computer to fail, according to the manufacturer.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (20 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Interesting, I wonder what has caused the brakes to be applied, battery material cost?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it’s taking them longer than anticipated to bring it to production, they are focusing on ramping up the model Y production.

Maybe they just think the pre order book is getting to large, we have already seen other EV makers stop taking new orders.


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I think it’s taking them longer than anticipated to bring it to production, they are focusing on ramping up the model Y production.
> 
> Maybe they just think the pre order book is getting to large, we have already seen other EV makers stop taking new orders.



Yes the supply of all vehicles is slowing to a snails pace, a mate ordered a Hyundai i20N in January, still no arrival date.

It makes me wonder if the manufacturers are deliberately slowing down the manufacturing of ICE cars, while they crank up the manufacturing of E.V's, the problem for them is they will have to support the ICE cars for a further 10 years after production ceases that is a hell of a millstone around their necks.
With Tesla they don't have that issue, but they are still in the infancy of high volume car production, so the ramp up will be stop go due to supply constraints IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (20 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> volvo has cancelled all orders (including mine) for the XC40 recharge.
> The driven.io
> 
> not a happy chappy after doing a lot of research and talking to EV owners.
> ...



Maybe it’s like light bulbs, in that the LED and compact fluorescent bulbs we more expensive up front, especially because production  was not to the scale of the cheap and nasty incandescent bulbs.

But the government new that install the modern types was cheaper for consumers over the long run and better for the environment, so they banned incandescent bulbs.

Once incandescents were banned the modern globes actually dropped in price due to scale production.


----------



## Value Collector (20 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> This article might be of interest to those on here, who have recently bought a Tesla model 3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That’s the awesome thing about over the air updates, this “Recall” just requires the driver to have their over the air updates activated, and the software issue will be fixed.

So even though it’s called a “recall”, you don’t actually have to bring your car in to the dealership, unless for some reason you don’t have access to wifi and you can’t hotspot from your mobile


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> volvo has cancelled all orders (including mine) for the XC40 recharge.
> The driven.io
> 
> not a happy chappy after doing a lot of research and talking to EV owners.
> ...



I would say the margin on E.V's is tight as batteries are supplied by third parties and they have seen a huge cost increase, as the legacy manufacturers have the double problem of trying to gear up E.V production and also make them cost competitive with their ICE offerings, it is becoming a real balancing act.
Make enough money on an ICE, to cross subsidies the E.V ramp up and also reduce the attractiveness of the ICE to reduce demand, while maintaining profit margin.
I think that is what all the delay is, they are only making vehicles to order, not on spec anymore.
So the delay time and exposure to supply line shocks is very high a bit like the building company issue lock in a contract then all your supply cost sky rocket and leave you exposed.
It will be interesting if there is a price increase on what you ordered, did you sign a purchase contract and put down a deposit? Or was it a deposit to reserve a right to purchase, when available.









						Volkswagen Australia increases prices again on most models
					

Volkswagen Australia has given many of its models price increases ranging from $500 to $3600 due to production, supply, and transport costs.




					www.carexpert.com.au
				











						Renault raises prices again
					

French importer set to raise prices across the range from July 1



					www.goauto.com.au
				











						Mercedes-Benz Australia increases vehicle prices for the fourth time in 15 months
					

45 models receive an average price increase of 3.72 per cent




					www.whichcar.com.au
				











						Massive Increase in Kia Prices- Again | CarSpiritPK
					

Lucky Motor Corporation (LMC) has given yet another push to the prices of Kia cars in Pakistan. This is the third time since the beginning of 2022 that Kia prices have witnessed an increase, first in January and then in March. The new prices will be applicable from 18th April 2022.




					carspiritpk.com
				











						Up and up! 2022 MG 3, ZS, ZST and HS price rises confirmed - but another round coming soon for Kia Rio, Mitsubishi ASX, Hyundai Kona and Toyota RAV4 rivals
					

MG Australia has just increased the pricing of several 2021-built variants of the MG3 light hatchback, ZS/ZST small SUV and HS mid-size SUV – but another round of cost tweaks is coming soon alongside 2022 examples




					www.carsguide.com.au
				











						Price rises hit Mitsubishi Australia with 2022 Outlander, Pajero Sport, ASX and Eclipse Cross now more expensive
					

Most of Mitsubishi Australia's models have just increased in price, with the likes of the ASX, Outlander and Pajero rising $500, and the top-spec Triton ute jumping up by as much as $2450.The reason for the price increase?




					www.carsguide.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That’s the awesome thing about over the air updates, this “Recall” just requires the driver to have their over the air updates activated, and the software issue will be fixed.
> 
> So even though it’s called a “recall”, you don’t actually have to bring your car in to the dealership, unless for some reason you don’t have access to wifi and you can’t hotspot from your mobile



Absolutely ridiculous that all E.V's cant do that.


----------



## Value Collector (20 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Absolutely ridiculous that all E.V's cant do that.



Or even just all cars in general


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Or even just all cars in general



Yes just another rort, I got an airbag system fault in my jeep, plugged in the 'bluedriver' obd2 reader, problem driver side seat airbag open cct.
It is only a two wire device and the seat had just been moved fully forward to fit something in the back.
Long story short, I couldnt get down to check the connector due to stuffed knees.
Jeep $200 to read code and push plug back together.
It is $175 just to plug in the scan tool, what a joke.


----------



## basilio (20 May 2022)

Something to think about.
A self propelled electric trailer. Hi tech from top to bottom
An electric RV again hi tech from top to bottom.

There goes the weekend..


----------



## SirRumpole (20 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Or even just all cars in general




There is a lot more to cars than software.

If your electric motor blows, try fixing that over the internet.


----------



## Value Collector (20 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a lot more to cars than software.
> 
> If your electric motor blows, try fixing that over the internet.



Of course, but as SP pointed out, it would be good to be able to get the car diagnosis done without having to plug it in, Also software is a bit part of cars, I am sure there is multiple ways ICE cars could be improved with over the air updates, even if it was just to their navigation software, etc.

With a Tesla, if you have any sort of problem the first thing you do is go to the service section of the Tesla app and they will try and diagnose the problem before you have to come in to the “shop”, depending on what the issue is they can either fix it remotely, send out a mobile service guy, or request you to bring the car in.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Of course, but as SP pointed out, it would be good to be able to get the car diagnosis done without having to plug it in, Also software is a bit part of cars, I am sure there is multiple ways ICE cars could be improved with over the air updates, even if it was just to their navigation software, etc.
> 
> With a Tesla, if you have any sort of problem the first thing you do is go to the service section of the Tesla app and they will try and diagnose the problem before you have to come in to the “shop”, depending on what the issue is they can either fix it remotely, send out a mobile service guy, or request you to bring the car in.




Yes, that's very nice, the way it should be done with the least trouble for the owner.


----------



## JohnDe (20 May 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There is a lot more to cars than software.
> 
> If your electric motor blows, try fixing that over the internet.




I'd like to see how many drivers can fix a modern engine or transmission  I'd hazard a guess and say almost none. First there are the specialized tools required to remove and install parts, then their is the complexity. Google the 2012 Subaru CVT transmission.


----------



## SirRumpole (20 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I'd like to see how many drivers can fix a modern engine or transmission  I'd hazard a guess and say almost none. First there are the specialized tools required to remove and install parts, then their is the complexity. Google the 2012 Subaru CVT transmission.




Indeed so. If there is a clunking in a modern engine it's a trip to the dealer. Maybe 20 years ago people could fix it themselves but not today.


----------



## mullokintyre (20 May 2022)

Geez, I just can't seem to  win.
After having my order for the XC40 cancelled,  I now find that the same thing is happening with polestar.
I had put a $1000 deposit about two months ago, not expecting to get one of the 'soon to be available" polestart 2 in RHD.
From The Driven


> Polestar is the latest electric vehicle maker to report it will have to reduce its production targets as a result of the global pandemic, which could result in delivery delays for Australian customers.
> In a statement on Friday, the Volvo offshoot said will make 30% less vehicles in 2022, a cut that is “100% attributable” to lockdowns due to the pandemic in China.
> The production cut comes just one day after Volvo said it had cancelled 166 orders for its 2022XC40 Pure Recharge in Australia.
> The popular Polestar 2 is made at the same Geely/Volvo factory as the XC40 Recharge in Luqiao, China. The Lynk & Co 01, a disruptive EV brand aimed at a new generation of drivers via a subscription-based ownership model, is also made at the same factory.



Looks like it will be ICE for some time yet for us.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (20 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Geez, I just can't seem to  win.
> After having my order for the XC40 cancelled,  I now find that the same thing is happening with polestar.
> I had put a $1000 deposit about two months ago, not expecting to get one of the 'soon to be available" polestart 2 in RHD.
> From The Driven
> ...



Sounds like the subscription based ownership model has very few subscriber protections.
Have you received your $1,000 back?


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Of course, but as SP pointed out, it would be good to be able to get the car diagnosis done without having to plug it in, Also software is a bit part of cars, I am sure there is multiple ways ICE cars could be improved with over the air updates, even if it was just to their navigation software, etc.



I'm in the middle on this one.

On one hand yes, use technology to do updates remotely.

On the other hand, well I learned long ago that the IT industry is prone to releasing code changes without comprehensive testing and that makes me wary of having the ability to update at will.


----------



## JohnDe (20 May 2022)

Who else thinks that Volvo’s first attempt was pathetic? 165 EVs . No wonder they canceled, the cost to drive them on the boat would take half their profit. 

Tesla is going to have a party. One month of Tesla sales equals a year of all the other manufacturers.


----------



## Value Collector (21 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm in the middle on this one.
> 
> On one hand yes, use technology to do updates remotely.
> 
> On the other hand, well I learned long ago that the IT industry is prone to releasing code changes without comprehensive testing and that makes me wary of having the ability to update at will.



I am glad they regularly send updates, my car is nearly 3 years old, and it’s basically a different car to the one I picked up 3 years ago, there has been a steady flow of improvements to everything from the autopilot system through the the window wiper performance, and of course many other fun things like video games and music options etc.


----------



## qldfrog (21 May 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm in the middle on this one.
> 
> On one hand yes, use technology to do updates remotely.
> 
> On the other hand, well I learned long ago that the IT industry is prone to releasing code changes without comprehensive testing and that makes me wary of having the ability to update at will.



Especially when you can not control when this happens.
Look at the operating system on your apple or windows machine as a guide
Better not install the latest update of your car just before this 2 week driving tour...
Every loss of control is a potential danger to your interests


----------



## mullokintyre (21 May 2022)

Ford have announced that the ubiquitous F150 is coming back to Australia.
Unfortunately, its the ICE version, not the EV Lightning Version.
From Unsealed 4x4


> The public has been asking ‘when’ for years and we finally have an answer.  Ford has officially announced that the *F150* will be available in Australian showrooms by mid-2023 through a right-hand drive, local remanufacturing program with engineering specialists, RMA Automotive.
> President and CEO of Ford Australia and New Zealand, Andrew Birkic said, “We’ve listened hard to fans and dealers and found a way to bring F150 to Australia.  As the pinnacle of ‘Built Ford Tough’, it will give our customers even more choice when they’re in the market for a pick-up. We just can’t wait to unleash it.”
> 
> “F150 has been part of F-Series, America’s best-selling vehicle line for the past 40 years, with more than 40 million F-Series Trucks produced to date. With such a local fan base, and with full-size truck sales in Australia tripling in recent years, we just knew we had to find a way to bring it back to Australia.”



It looks more like the case of the US  using all the last of the ICE F150  bits  to build cars and dump them in OZ while they ramp up the lightning version production.
You can pick up an ICE version of the F150 without a lot of trouble, but there is at least 9 month wait for the EV version.
Extremely disappointing, as the reviews of the F150 lightning seem to indicate its a better vehicle than the Rivian.
Mick


----------



## rederob (21 May 2022)

If the graphic below comes to fruition by 2029, then most US legacy automakers will have gone broke:


	

		
			
		

		
	
It would also meant that European automakers will dominate US vehicle sales.  Unless of course Americans will continue to be happy to pay over $4/gallon for their "gas" (petrol).
I think their Asia data is a bit off.  China already has over 25% EV penetration, and this is likely to hit 30% before the year ends as ICE sales have plummeted.  On the other hand, Japan will likely remain an ICEV stronghold, while Korea's successes with their Ioniq series and Kia's EV6s should see them pivot more quickly to EVs as they cannot come close to meeting demand.  China, is already looking at building EV model production lines in other Asian countries and, with clean air being a major impetus, there will be strong national imperatives to move away from ICEVs.
Sadly we see *zero *for Australia, and that to me represents a missed opportunity to use our favourable "green" natural resource base for other than mineral exports.  Maybe we could have done a deal with Tesla to build Cybertrucks locally, given we could probably sells tens of thousands here annually,  and have a population base of over 3B just north of us to sell into.


----------



## JohnDe (21 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Ford have announced that the ubiquitous F150 is coming back to Australia.
> Unfortunately, its the ICE version, not the EV Lightning Version.
> From Unsealed 4x4
> 
> ...




Ford have two problems, first is the that they have a massive amount of F truck stock assembled waiting on computer chip sets. Look at the sales numbers for 2021, Covid stopped some production but plenty F trucks were built with the hope that electronics would come soon.

Second problem is Ford's ability to build enough EV F trucks, they don't have the factory capacity (modifications to equipment and structures required), or enough EV materials like batteries and motors. Ford announced that they will build 150,000 EV trucks, for a market that usually soaks up 900,000+ F trucks (USA & Canada).


FORD F SERIES – US – BY YEAR​


Yearsold2005901,4632006796,0392007691,5892008515,5132009413,6252010528,3492011584,9172012692,5892013764,4022014753,8512015780,3542016820,7992017896,7642018909,3302019896,5262020787,3722021726,0032022192,218


FORD F SERIES – CANADA – BY YEAR​ 



YearTotal2012106,3582013120,2192014126,2772015118,8372016145,4092017155,2902018145,6942019145,2102020128,6502021116,402

​FULL SPEED AHEAD: FORD PLANNING TO NEARLY DOUBLE ALL-ELECTRIC F-150 LIGHTNING PRODUCTION TO 150,000 UNITS ANNUALLY; FIRST WAVE OF RESERVATION HOLDERS INVITED TO ORDER​


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

@JohnDe I don't hold out much hope for more infrastructure in the bush, but there may be hope for the removal of the luxury car tax from the Porsche Taycan.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Ford have two problems, first is the that they have a massive amount of F truck stock assembled waiting on computer chip sets. Look at the sales numbers for 2021, Covid stopped some production but plenty F trucks were built with the hope that electronics would come soon.
> 
> Second problem is Ford's ability to build enough EV F trucks, they don't have the factory capacity (modifications to equipment and structures required), or enough EV materials like batteries and motors. Ford announced that they will build 150,000 EV trucks, for a market that usually soaks up 900,000+ F trucks (USA & Canada).
> 
> ...



Well, at tleast Ford is producing and delivering F150 lightnings, which is more than we can say for the tesla cybertruck.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (22 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Well, at tleast Ford is producing and delivering F150 lightnings, which is more than we can say for the tesla cybertruck.
> Mick




I would hope so. With the F series being Fords No.1 product, they'd be bankrupt without it.

November 2021 - 






			https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/2021/12/02/ford-sales-21-november.pdf


----------



## sptrawler (22 May 2022)

Hyundai Enters $5.54B Agreement to Build EV and Battery Plant in Georgia By Investing.com
					

Hyundai Enters $5.54B Agreement to Build EV and Battery Plant in Georgia




					au.investing.com
				




Hyundai Motors (OTC:HYMLY) announced today that the company has entered into an agreement with the state of Georgia to build its first dedicated full electric vehicle and battery manufacturing facility in the country.

A signing ceremony was held at the sight of the future factory near Savannah. Governor Brian Kemp, along with company officials, outlined plans for the factory’s operations on the nearly 3,000-acre property. Hyundai will invest $5.54 Billion into the project with plans to employ about 8,100 people at the plant.
As part of the company’s plans to invest $7.4 billion to expand electric vehicles in the U.S. by 2025, Hyundai officials said that they plan to break ground on the facility in 2023 with plans to begin production by 2025. Plans show that the factory will have the capacity to build 300,000 vehicles per year.

Hyundai will also build batteries on site with a joint venture partner that will be announced later.


----------



## rederob (23 May 2022)

Labor lost some seats as their climate change and EV policies were mediocre to crap, compared to just crap for the Coalition.
So here's part of *Labor's EV policy*:
* Labor will exempt many electric cars from:*​
*Import tariffs – a 5 per cent tax on some imported electric cars; and*
*Fringe benefits tax – a 47 per cent tax on electric cars that are provided through work for private use.*
*These exemptions will be available to all electric cars below the luxury car tax threshold for fuel efficient vehicles ($77,565 in 2020-21).*​
The first thing wrong with this policy is nothing to do with it!  That is, there is no need for a policy to encourage EV take up when supply cannot meet demand, as all readers at this site are aware.
The next problem is that no EVs are priced under $45K at present, so all we are doing is foregoing taxes to reduce the price of already expensive cars for individual buyers who can afford them anyway, and add to missed taxes by propping up businesses who package EVS to employees by exempting them from FBT.

So the obvious first step is to encourage the importation of much cheaper EVs, plus make them more affordable to most Australians.  Given the average price of a sedan in Australia is around $45K then we should probably look at $50k as the cut-off for all EV exemptions and leave the complicating luxury car tax out of it.  I'm only suggesting $50K price point as the EV battery pack presently makes comparable EVs more expensive than ICEVs and we also know that MG's EV and the Atto 3 are in this ballpark and would be reasonable family cars.  The point here is that there are lots of other European and Chinese models that are potential candidates with the right settings in place.

The next step is make these EVs more affordable to people who don't earn much.  A simple policy fix is to exempt the GST component for purchasers with a taxable income of less than $50K in the previous year.  I chose $50 based on the the ATO's *median *taxable income data and the fact that it would help redress the earnings imbalance between men and women:


In the short term my ideas would have minimal draw on the federal purse, but they would give a strong signal to EV manufacturers that there was a new target market with potential sales of hundreds of thousands of units annually that could be quickly tapped.  That would make RHD production lines cost effective for manufacturers and deliver us the EVs we need to reach any semblance of parity with other developed nations.

While Labor's FBT exemption might work where supply is not an issue, in the current environment it's as useful as a sunroof on a motorbike.


----------



## rederob (25 May 2022)

I hoped *this *article from The Driven would live up to its headline:
What will Labor’s promised electric vehicle policy deliver for drivers?​Instead it mostly focuses on the issue of vehicle emission standards which were previously covered in this thread, and explains why we get the EV dregs from legacy automakers.

On the plus side the incoming Energy and Climate Change Minister, Chris Bowen, actually drives a Model 3, so at least we will have someone at the helm who has a first hand appreciation of ownership issues.


----------



## JohnDe (27 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> This article might be of interest to those on here, who have recently bought a Tesla model 3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Recall completed, without leaving home.

_"Tesla's recent updates follow on from a recent roll-out to prevent a fault with the Model 3 where its infotainment system's central processing unit (CPU) would overheat while the vehicle was being fast-charged, with the issue rectified via another over-the-air update."_



> Tesla update adds improved driving range calculations based on weather forecasts​The latest over-the-air update allows Tesla's models to provide more accurate driving range estimations with weather information​
> Tesla is rolling out its latest over-the-air update to its Australian models, boasting a new feature which provides more accurate driving range calculations.
> 
> The newest Tesla update (2022.16.0.2) adds Navigation Energy Prediction, a function which gives drivers a more realistic calculation of the vehicle's driving range when using online navigation by incorporating forecasted crosswind, headwind, humidity, and ambient temperature information.
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (27 May 2022)

rederob said:


> I hoped *this *article from The Driven would live up to its headline:
> What will Labor’s promised electric vehicle policy deliver for drivers?​Instead it mostly focuses on the issue of vehicle emission standards which were previously covered in this thread, and explains why we get the EV dregs from legacy automakers.
> 
> On the plus side the incoming Energy and Climate Change Minister, Chris Bowen, actually drives a Model 3, so at least we will have someone at the helm who has a first hand appreciation of ownership issues.



Time will tell. 
Have you had any update on the BYD? I still don't have a VIN for the Hyundai.


----------



## qldfrog (27 May 2022)

Any person here done any search for cheap hybrid plugin?
 Basically 40km or so on electric that i can charge at home on PV, for daily run but able to run on petrol gor longuer run
Pure EV not $ worth at this stage but wondering about a min8mual battery option now that the watermelon are in.


----------



## rederob (28 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Time will tell.



Given the tariff for EVs from China became zero as a result of our 2015 FTA there will be zero benefit to the majority of EV buyers in Australia, so time has already tolled on that one.
Your Kona is made in Europe, so you are likely to get it for even less after July 1 2022.
If Labor was serious about making EVs more affordable for those less well off, then they could have knocked off the GST for EVs landed below an "affordable" price, say $35K.  Again, I know nothing is yet available in this price range, but it's *signal *setting for supply which *does exist* but remains to be earmarked for export to Australia:





sptrawler said:


> Have you had any update on the BYD? I still don't have a VIN for the Hyundai.



Not yet, but there's no change to July as my delivery month - legs crossed.
I noticed BYD's Seal got over 22000 pre-orders in China in a matter of hours last week, and that 's equal to about 3 months of their proposed production schedule:


It's seen as a Tesla competitor, as noted below with USD prices:


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Any person here done any search for cheap hybrid plugin?
> Basically 40km or so on electric that i can charge at home on PV, for daily run but able to run on petrol gor longuer run
> Pure EV not $ worth at this stage but wondering about a min8mual battery option now that the watermelon are in.



I looked into PHEV's before deciding on the full E.V, the best value for money one seemed to be the recently superseded Mitsubishi Outlander, the 2020 model had a 13.8kWh battery earlier ones had the 12kWh. The Eclipse Cross uses the same battery and running gear, but is a smaller car. They should realistically get 40-50k's on a charge.

The new Mitsubishi Outlander is getting a 20kWh battery and is due very soon, that should be good for about 80k's. 
My guess is it wont be much cheaper than a pure E.V, that's what made me decide on the Hyundai Kona extended range E.V. But I also am retired and not overly dependent on the car, so I guess it depends on your personal circumstances.


----------



## qldfrog (28 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I looked into PHEV's before deciding on the full E.V, the best value for money one seemed to be the recently superseded Mitsubishi Outlander, the 2020 model had a 13.8kWh battery earlier ones had the 12kWh. The Eclipse Cross uses the same battery and running gear, but is a smaller car. They should realistically get 40-50k's on a charge.
> 
> The new Mitsubishi Outlander is getting a 20kWh battery and is due very soon, that should be good for about 80k's.
> My guess is it wont be much cheaper than a pure E.V, that's what made me decide on the Hyundai Kona extended range E.V. But I also am retired and not overly dependent on the car, so I guess it depends on your personal circumstances.



Really make no sense to spend 80k..cheapest i found above 50k to do 20km a day for a post office and basic shopping..i need a runabout in ev or plug in hybrid..not available yet?
Maybe an old Leaf but then if battery is dead..ish, will do 50km but consume as much power as 300km?
I though electric scooter but this is australia so price and regulations make it a no go i think 
Would have been my go to in China for that purpose..but we are not in China...


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Really make no sense to spend 80k..cheapest i found above 50k to do 20km a day for a post office and basic shopping..i need a runabout in ev or plug in hybrid..not available yet?
> Maybe an old Leaf but then if battery is dead..ish, will do 50km but consume as much power as 300km?
> I though electric scooter but this is australia so price and regulations make it a no go i think
> Would have been my go to in China for that purpose..but we are not in China...



Yes it certainly isn't black and white, a cheap small runaround would probably be the go. 
Now the Governments are putting 2.5c/klm surcharge, you would certainly have to do the sums, especially with the price of electricity going up, if you don't have solar it would be touch and go IMO.
We mainly use bicycles/ electric scooters and public transport.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (28 May 2022)

A mate of mine who used drive taxis says that the Prius is the best for people living in the Regions. 

The ICE gets it up n running and then the EV component takes over. 

gg


----------



## JohnDe (28 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> A mate of mine who used drive taxis says that the Prius is the best for people living in the Regions.
> 
> The ICE gets it up n running and then the EV component takes over.
> 
> gg




Either he is a lead foot or the battery is on its last legs.



> *System Performance*
> 
> Start-Up
> 
> When starting up, stopped at intersections and lights, or moving at low speeds, the car is powered solely by the electric drive motor, drawing energy from the hybrid battery through the power control unit. Not only does this save on fuel and result in zero emissions, but the electric drive motor also helps the acceleration process by delivering maximum torque instantly. Call it a win-win situation.


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## Value Collector (28 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> .
> 
> The ICE gets it up n running and then the EV component takes over.
> 
> gg



other way around.
I drove one when I was in the USA earlier in the year it works like this,

1, when you first hop in and drive off through the carpark its operating 100% electric (if there is charge in the battery).

2, as you accelerate on and pick up speed above say 20km the petrol engine kicks in and the petrol and electric work together,

3, as you brake the region braking sends power to the battery.

4, as you are cruising along at a steady speed it will regularly switch between electric, petrol or regeneration braking depending on hills etc and depending on battery level.

its quite complex and is regularly switching between the option seamlessly without you doing anything.


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## Garpal Gumnut (28 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Either he is a lead foot or the battery is on its last legs.






Value Collector said:


> other way around.
> I drove one when I was in the USA earlier in the year it works like this,
> 
> 1, when you first hop in and drive off through the carpark its operating 100% electric (if there is charge in the battery).
> ...



I am so glad I'm an ASF member. 

He repeats this frequently, I know very little about ICE or EV. Even less about Prius.

Thank you both. 

I might wager $50 he is wrong next time it comes up. 

I still reckon its a better option for us in Regional Australia than an EV. 

gg


----------



## JohnDe (28 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> 2, as you accelerate on and pick up speed above say 20km the petrol engine kicks in and the petrol and electric work together,




That depends on how hard you accelerate and the condition of the battery. I have driven quite a few new Camry hybrids and when driving in suburban streets I can maintain full electric motor function to 60km/h.


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## bux2000 (28 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I still reckon its a better option for us in Regional Australia than an EV.




Come .........on ........now................wash your mouth out with soap  !!!!!!!!!

If you want a JAP import






						Trade Me
					






					www.trademe.co.nz
				




bux


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (28 May 2022)

bux2000 said:


> Come .........on ........now................wash your mouth out with soap  !!!!!!!!!
> 
> If you want a JAP import
> 
> ...



As yet Bentley unfortunately have not produced an EV and I enclose the form for those ASF members who persistently appear in the top ten of the Monthly Comp who may be interested in purchasing one. 






						Bentley Motors Website
					






					www.bentleymotors.com
				




gg


----------



## sptrawler (28 May 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I am so glad I'm an ASF member.
> 
> He repeats this frequently, I know very little about ICE or EV. Even less about Prius.
> 
> ...



The problem with tbe Prius from what I've heard, from my son in the Goldfields, is once you are over 80kl/hr it is 100% ICE.
So if most of your driving is around town that's ok, if most of your driving is on the highway, not so good.


----------



## JohnDe (28 May 2022)

> NEW Aussie Government claims EV prices SLASHED​
> "Fringe benefit tax will reduce the price if you buy it that way, most people don't do it that though....5% of the import tax will be passed on to the consumer... what do I think? No, in the short term you will get zero... The brands will keep all this money as what? A mark up, why because we have so much demand for electric cars here  in Australia right now that the manufactures know they don't need to sell to us at a discount. I mean BYD originally promised to sell there electric cars the BYD Ato 3 at a price that they didn't follow through with it. Why did they not follow through with it , simply because they didn't need to ... frankly because there is so much demand for it that they knew they could sell it for a higher price than what they originally said the car would cost, which was under $40,000 and yeah it's a lot more than that. Because there is so much demand. They were right. Hey look, I ordered one, many of you have ordered one..."


----------



## Value Collector (28 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The problem with tbe Prius from what I've heard, from my son in the Goldfields, is once you are over 80kl/hr it is 100% ICE.
> So if most of your driving is around town that's ok, if most of your driving is on the highway, not so good.



My experience is that even on the freeway at 100km it’s still switching between the different functions.

Eg, if you hit a slightly down hill section to might go into regen mode or just maintain speed using the electric, sometimes it will be 50/50, if the battery runs down the petrol will kick in for a while to drive the car but it also charges at the same time.


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> My experience is that even on the freeway at 100km it’s still switching between the different functions.
> 
> Eg, if you hit a slightly down hill section to might go into regen mode or just maintain speed using the electric, sometimes it will be 50/50, if the battery runs down the petrol will kick in for a while to drive the car but it also charges at the same time.



In W.A it is fairly flat, my son lived near Kalgoorlie and his next door neighbour had a Prius, apparently on the 1,200 km trip to Perth and back at 110 km/hr it mainly ran on the ICE motor.
I don't think he said it did much 50/50 running.
Apparently around town it was ok.
The other thing with the Prius, they early ones ran a NiMh battery I'm not sure when or if they changed and updated, so that also would be worth checking.
I guess what I'm saying is do your research and know what you are buying.


----------



## Value Collector (29 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> In W.A it is fairly flat, my son lived near Kalgoorlie and his next door neighbour had a Prius, apparently on the 1,200 km trip to Perth and back at 110 km/hr it mainly ran on the ICE motor.
> I don't think he said it did much 50/50 running.
> Apparently around town it was ok.
> The other thing with the Prius, they early ones ran a NiMh battery I'm not sure when or if they changed and updated, so that also would be worth checking.
> I guess what I'm saying is do your research and know what you are buying.



I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t be using the battery, Maybe the battery is stuffed.

While it’s driving using the engine the battery should be charging, then when the battery gets near full it should switch to the 50/50 mode for a while to drain the battery, that’s how I noticed it.

I was driving in Florida which is also pretty flat.


----------



## sptrawler (29 May 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t be using the battery, Maybe the battery is stuffed.
> 
> While it’s driving using the engine the battery should be charging, then when the battery gets near full it should switch to the 50/50 mode for a while to drain the battery, that’s how I noticed it.
> 
> I was driving in Florida which is also pretty flat.



There may have been something wrong with it, but they said once it was over about 90km/hr it just ran 100% ICE.


----------



## JohnDe (30 May 2022)

Infrastructure investment is required in Australia, not tax cuts for EVs.



> *Anxiety The Problem, Not EV Range*
> 
> A recent report from the United Kingdom highlights a maturing charging network and a reduction in range anxiety. The Automobile Association (AA) reports that the percentage of breakdown callouts for low battery has halved in the past 12 months. They have found that range anxiety does not match reality — half of the callouts were for anxious drivers who had not actually run out of range but from drivers panicked when their cars warned them that the battery was low. Having been I a similar situation in Queensland’s far west, I can understand the concern.
> 
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (30 May 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Infrastructure investment is required in Australia, not tax cuts for EVs.



On Friday, despite the cancelling of late 2022 manufactured deliveries we  re signed for the Volvo XC40, but the new model with slightly longer range designated a MY23 build.
We did not have to put a further 5k down as deposit, and it is due in November.
Our biggest problem is that there are no fast chargers between where we live and Melbourne without doing some detours to get to Euroa.
Plug share shows a few 10 amp wall chargers, but I can't park for ten hours while it recharges.
Really need some fast chargers at Wahring, Seymour, Broadford, Wallan etc.
Mick


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## Garpal Gumnut (30 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> On Friday, despite the cancelling of late 2022 manufactured deliveries we  re signed for the Volvo XC40, but the new model with slightly longer range designated a MY23 build.
> We did not have to put a further 5k down as deposit, and it is due in November.
> Our biggest problem is that there are no fast chargers between where we live and Melbourne without doing some detours to get to Euroa.
> Plug share shows a few 10 amp wall chargers, but I can't park for ten hours while it recharges.
> ...



Just as well its not a horse without feed, Mick. 



> There was movement at the station, for the word had passed around
> That the colt from Old Regret had got away,
> And had joined the wild bush horses -  he was worth a thousand pound,
> So all the cracks had gathered to the fray.
> ...




gg


----------



## JohnDe (30 May 2022)

Choose your investments in the materials sector carefully - 



> As first reported by Bloomberg, analysts say they expect the cost of cobalt, lithium, and nickel to decline in the next two years in response to over-investment in green energy ventures. Market corrections will drive down prices for the abundant supply of the metals, with lithium anticipated to experience the greatest adjustment.
> 
> Investors have continued to flock to the EV battery market, as the automotive industry expands its efforts into sustainable vehicles and away from gas-fueled cars. Concern over shortages of the materials in recent months —  particularly amid the pandemic and Russia's invasion of Ukraine — further amplified investments for the metals, Insider's Alexa St. John reported.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (30 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> On Friday, despite the cancelling of late 2022 manufactured deliveries we  re signed for the Volvo XC40, but the new model with slightly longer range designated a MY23 build.
> We did not have to put a further 5k down as deposit, and it is due in November.
> Our biggest problem is that there are no fast chargers between where we live and Melbourne without doing some detours to get to Euroa.
> Plug share shows a few 10 amp wall chargers, but I can't park for ten hours while it recharges.
> ...



It isn't just having fast chargers in towns, it is also having them working especially when they are strategic.
The Chargefox fast charger at Mandurah, which really is the only major town between Perth and Bunbury 200km away, hasn't been working for a month or so. There is only the one in Harvey which is off the beaten track , so anyone coming up from the S/W really would have to be careful, there just aren't enough of the chargers in W.A.
A lot of the people who live in the country towns have to travel to Perth as there aren't a lot of services in the country towns.


----------



## mullokintyre (30 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> On Friday, despite the cancelling of late 2022 manufactured deliveries we  re signed for the Volvo XC40, but the new model with slightly longer range designated a MY23 build.
> We did not have to put a further 5k down as deposit, and it is due in November.
> Our biggest problem is that there are no fast chargers between where we live and Melbourne without doing some detours to get to Euroa.
> Plug share shows a few 10 amp wall chargers, but I can't park for ten hours while it recharges.
> ...



I should add that prior to resigning for the XC40, we visited the hyundai /Kia dealer in FTG.
Drove the Kia Niro, but neither my wife or I thought it came anywhere near the XC40.
Seats were good, but unless you put it into sport mode, the response was somewhat underwhelming.
Seats were comfortable,  air conditioning seemed lacking in volume even on a very mild Melbourne afternoon.
Was also a lot smaller vehicle than the wife wanted.
Would be good as a run bout in the city, but probably not for us regional folks.
The top of the line  was about 75,000, not much cheaper than the  dual motor XC40 at 88k drive away.
Had a look at the EV6 while were there, but could not get a drive of one.
Looked really good, and the GT version has a claimed range of 6650 km.
The salesman also said the wait time for them had gone out beyond 2 years even if we ordered right there on the spot.
And the price for he GT line  ended up being higher than the XC40 anyway.
So thats why we settled on the XC40.
Will be the first volvo I have ever owned.
Need to get a hat.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (30 May 2022)

> CarTell.tv
> 
> In this video, Jenny checks out the all-electric Volvo XC40 Recharge. The team at CarTell.tv has always held the XC40 in high regard. It is one of the best cars in its class and actually has been for a while.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (30 May 2022)

> In this video, Jenny checks out the all-new Kia EV6. An all-electric SUV that is based on the Hyundai IONIQ 5 platform. In itself, the Hyundai IONIQ 5 is already a fantastic choice when it comes to an all-electric vehicle.
> 
> The RWD EV6 has one motor which produces 168 kW and 350 Nm. The AWD version has two motors and they add up to 239 kW and 605 Nm of that lovely EV torque.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (31 May 2022)

*Infrastructure vs EV subsidies. *

If you don't want to watch the whole video - 6:00 minute & 16:00 minute mark. The guy always annoys me but he makes relevant points.


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## Value Collector (31 May 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> On Friday, despite the cancelling of late 2022 manufactured deliveries we  re signed for the Volvo XC40, but the new model with slightly longer range designated a MY23 build.
> We did not have to put a further 5k down as deposit, and it is due in November.
> Our biggest problem is that there are no fast chargers between where we live and Melbourne without doing some detours to get to Euroa.
> Plug share shows a few 10 amp wall chargers, but I can't park for ten hours while it recharges.
> ...



Melbourne to Euroa and back should be easy on a single charge shouldn’t it? What’s the range of the Volvo?


----------



## mullokintyre (31 May 2022)

Problem is, we don't normally go via Euroa, we don't hit the Hume until  Seymour.
Going via  Euroa adds a bit over 40 kms to the one way  trip to Melbourne.
Can do the trip one way without recharging, cannot reliably do it as a round trip without recharging.
Will need to recharge somewhere in Melb before we return.
Mick


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## sptrawler (31 May 2022)

That is exactly the issue I was going on about @JohnDe , the super fast charger at Treendale on the outskirts of Bunbury, wouldnt mate with the Ionic 5 and 100km further on at Mandurah the only decent charger is stuffed, so best of luck for someone heading to Perth a further 80km  to the next charger.


----------



## rederob (31 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is exactly the issue I was going on about @JohnDe , the super fast charger at Treendale on the outskirts of Bunbury, wouldnt mate with the Ionic 5 and 100km further on at Mandurah the only decent charger is stuffed, so best of luck for someone heading to Perth a further 80km  to the next charger.



Looking at @JohnDe's recent posts you need a *Jenny *to go the distance.


----------



## JohnDe (31 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is exactly the issue I was going on about @JohnDe , the super fast charger at Treendale on the outskirts of Bunbury, wouldnt mate with the Ionic 5 and 100km further on at Mandurah the only decent charger is stuffed, so best of luck for someone heading to Perth a further 80km  to the next charger.




I'm a member of The Australian Electric Vehicle Association & Tesla Owners Club of Australia, both have numerous examples of people driving their EVs across Australia. They are also active in trying to get governments and businesses improve charging infrastructure, by education, discussion and examples.

Slowly but surely there is change happening. People are starting to see that a country the size of Australia needs infrastructure built in strategic locations to silence the naysayers of the EV future. The previous demands of EV subsidies has died down with the realisation that there isn't enough stock world wide and that the manufacturers didn't need to pass on savings in the current demand driven market.

Hopefully the current government will start discussions with business that have a proven track record in the EV and charging infrastructure market. Once they get all the facts, enforceable guidelines can be implemented that will standardise charging infrastructure and maintanence across Australia.



> *Tesla: In 2021 Supercharging Uptime Improved To 99.96%*
> 
> The Tesla Supercharging network is considered one of the most reliable charging infrastructures in the world and, according to the latest data, this improved in 2021.
> 
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (31 May 2022)

This one is not to far away from seymour


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## mullokintyre (31 May 2022)

Its North of Seymour on the Hume, we would have to travel through Euroa to get to Seymour.
Does not make much sense


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## sptrawler (31 May 2022)

You got me excited there @Value Collector , I thought great another charging company I will be able to use, so I looked up the map. 😩


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## Value Collector (31 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> You got me excited there @Value Collector , I thought great another charging company I will be able to use, so I looked up the map. 😩
> 
> View attachment 142368



Hopefully you guys will get some more toys soon.


----------



## sptrawler (31 May 2022)

Here is a post from a Nissan Leaf E.V owner in U.K on tips for taking a long trip, I thought it would be interesting, considering U.K is really pushing toward total E.V status.
It is actually a post from a few years back, but it kind of is where we are at now, with regard infrastructure in W.A.

Quote:
I've made a couple of very long multi-day Leaf journeys this year, one of which was 1600 miles right around the UK in 12 days. I've had a few days of some 350 miles in under 12 hours, and never run out of power: so here are some thoughts on keeping it easy and getting from A>B quickly. Some of these are probably old hat to experienced EV drivers, but we do get lots of newbies, so this is for them.

1) never rapid charge above 80% - 90% when on the move unless you really need to or simply have loads of time. The last 20% takes ages.
2) phone ahead (on a weekday, working hours) to get the latest info on the electric highway, don't rely on zapmap service status - or any other online information - as it is often out of date
3) When using single or unknown rapids - try to charge every 40-50 miles on average - always keep a decent reserve for Plan B (which is either the next rapid or a Type 2)
4) Figure out a speed that gives you a 20% remaining margin of error for your car - conditions can change. On motorways 55 mph seems about optimum cruising speed, but when you have a reliable charger ahead then 65 mph is fine.
5) In rural and remote areas, aim to stop overnight at friends houses, youth hostels or B&Bs - they are much more laid back than hotels about charging your car. Use the brick overnight, and carry a ten metre extension lead to drape through windows or whatever.
6) If you don't get a charge from any charger, be persistent and methodical, it can often take a few tries. One common and puzzling error is to leave the charging timer on: always switch it off on any long trip.
Carry three main cards: CYC, Ecotricity electric highway, and Polar - plus any regional network cards required - such as the SSE card in Hampshire.
7) Don't panic when going up long hills like Beattock summit or Shap fell - you will lose a lot of power but gain much of it back downhill.


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## Value Collector (31 May 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Here is a post from a Nissan Leaf E.V owner in U.K on tips for taking a long trip, I thought it would be interesting, considering U.K is really pushing toward total E.V status.
> It is actually a post from a few years back, but it kind of is where we are at now, with regard infrastructure in W.A.
> 
> Quote:
> ...



I agree with number 1, 

On long interstate road trips (atleast on the east coast), it’s always best to just charge while you use the rest room, it will be over 70% or 80% by the time you get back to the car, which is enough for over another 3 hours driving, so don’t bother waiting till it gets any higher just drive on and hit the charger up down the line, because no doubt you will need to stretch your legs again by then any way.

That way you make the most of the fast charging times at lower battery levels, rather than waiting 40mins for that last 20%


----------



## sptrawler (1 June 2022)

The penny seems to be dropping @JohnDe.

https://thedriven.io/2022/05/30/not...ing-headlong-into-an-ev-fast-charging-crisis/
From the article:
But the experience underlines a major problem, State and federal governments and the likes of NRMA and private networks have been trying to fill in the gaps in the charging networks, but they often do so with just a single charging station, which results in queues at busy periods and no redundancy if it’s out of order.
Being an early adopter, there’s a fair amount of tolerance in the EV community for such problems. But as EVs go mass-market, and then become the expected form of road transport, that tolerance level will fall dramatically.
The good news for the incoming Labor government – which has grand plans to roll out EV charging infrastructure – is also the bad news: Demand for EVs is surging, and sales tripled in 2021, but the supply of new EVs in Australia is slowing to a trickle, thanks to the global supply crunch and the decision by most major car makers to prioritise other country markets, due to their strict vehicle emissions standards.
That will give federal Labor and the state governments a little more room to get the rollout right. Yes, more charging stations, more ultra fast charging stations (to cope with new EVs with 100kWh batteries or bigger), and please, multiple charging points at each location. And maybe some signs or even controls for etiquette, or caps at 80 per cent.
Tesla can achieve this, because all the stations and the cars themselves are on the same network. And Tesla thinks about these things. It will be harder for the other car manufacturers and networks to co-ordinate.
When it is clear there will be sufficient infrastructure in place, Labor can maybe introduce the vehicle emissions standards, to encourage the big car makers to bring their new EVs to Australia too. Thanks also to the soaring petrol and diesel prices, it seems everyone wants one.


----------



## JohnDe (2 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The penny seems to be dropping @JohnDe.
> 
> https://thedriven.io/2022/05/30/not...ing-headlong-into-an-ev-fast-charging-crisis/
> From the article:
> ...




There is going to be a lot more articles like this, unless something changes very fast.

Though I doubt that this problem is going to be rectified quickly.

First there needs to be a willingness of government to work with industry so as to create an EV charging standard and a implementation plan.

Then there will have to be an assessment of locations to find the best sites to install charging infrastructure, negotiate with various councils and land owners.

And hopefully while the above is going on there is someone sourcing and purchasing the required charging infrastructure so that it can be installed as soon as all the green lights are on. Remembering that there is currently a world shortage of everything and slow distribution of freight.

Once that is done the building of charging stations can commence.

Imagine if the people that were calling for EV subsidies had first thought through the issues and instead used their energy and called for EV infrastructure instead.





> Not enough plugs: Australia is driving headlong into an EV fast charging crisis​
> It’s no secret that Tesla owners are pretty happy about the electric cars they drive, and they are also pretty pleased with the EV charging options that the company has provided: The most comprehensive “super fast-charging” network in the world, multiple charging spots at each location, and any number of convenient but slower “destination” chargers.
> 
> We make the trip from Byron Bay to Sydney and Canberra often. In the Tesla Model 3 SR+, Bryon to Sydney can be done with just three 20-minute stops at Tesla super-chargers to top up the battery. One of the installations is located at a very nice winery, and it’s tempting to stop longer for a nice lunch.
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (2 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Demand for EVs is surging, and sales tripled in 2021, but the supply of new EVs in Australia is slowing to a trickle, thanks to the global supply crunch and the decision by most major car makers to prioritise other country markets, due to their strict vehicle emissions standards.



The above is one of those statements that people seem to think that if you state it enough times, people will believe its true.
Firstly, car makers are there to make a buck. They are not there to help out the environment, or  help people achieve their lifelong dreams etc etc. They are not altruistic (see Volkswagen emissions  cheating for instance, or the reluctance of  car companies to issue recalls because of faulty work).

Secondly, what proof does anyone have that car makers prioritise their sales because of strict vehicle emission standards.
They sell them where they can make the most  money.
Why do the big manufacturers  build big plants  in China?
Is it because they want to hep the Chinese economy?
Hell no, its cheap labour and they are right in the middle of one of the bigger car markets in the world.
Thirdly, do people seriously believe that the vehicles delivered have been detuned to only meet the Australian emissions standards?
Hell no, they exactly the same as the European, American or Chinese  sales.
If the government were to increase the emission standards to that of the Europeans , do people really think that the EV makers would suddenly  flood us with product because they are so grateful for these high emission standards?
We are a pissy little backwater, that create headaches for car makers because
(a) we are right hand drive mob that  causes them to retool every time a RHD shipment is prepared.
(b)We are a long way from  the manufacturers, and  sea shipping is expensive.
(c) The OZ car sales numbers  are equivalent to a rounding error in the sales spreadsheet of worldwide production.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> There is going to be a lot more articles like this, unless something changes very fast.
> 
> Though I doubt that this problem is going to be rectified quickly.
> 
> ...



I feel sorry for the early uptakers that bought the dream, but didn't buy the extended range.


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2022)

Demand for EVs is surging, and sales tripled in 2021, but the supply of new EVs in Australia is slowing to a trickle, thanks to the global supply crunch and the decision by most major car makers to prioritise other country markets, due to their strict vehicle emissions standards.



mullokintyre said:


> The above is one of those statements that people seem to think that if you state it enough times, people will believe its true.
> Firstly, car makers are there to make a buck. They are not there to help out the environment, or  help people achieve their lifelong dreams etc etc. They are not altruistic (see Volkswagen emissions  cheating for instance, or the reluctance of  car companies to issue recalls because of faulty work).



Yes the media loves the chestnuts, a bit like the only reason we haven't shut down coal already is because of lack of Government will, well we now have the will, the promise and the enthusiasm in Government.
It will be interesting to watch it unfold, or unravel. I feel a brain fart coming on.


----------



## mullokintyre (2 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I feel sorry for the early uptakers that bought the dream, but didn't buy the extended range.



As others have pointed out,  those living in the city will be fine, as most of their charging can be done at home, and only rarely travel long distances requiring mid trip recharge.
Bad luck about the rest of us, but most people living outside the cites have already had to cope with poor service in every other aspect of life.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (2 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The penny seems to be dropping @JohnDe.
> 
> https://thedriven.io/2022/05/30/not...ing-headlong-into-an-ev-fast-charging-crisis/
> From the article:
> ...



We are just preparing the next insulation /nbn scam on a scale imho.
At one stage, facts will show that EV with current technology can not replace ice fleet.
I will not repeat the obvious issues especially in densified cities..so either people are forced out of car ownerships (aka my favorite Reset program and its econazy capitalist cronies). Or a new tech is chosen which will render all these chargers obsolete: battery swap, hydrogen or amonia refuel stations,etc not to forget whatever standard will be adapted in 3y time: power and plug....in the meantime,a labour gov will have sunk 20y of economic future down rhe drain.
I do not expect much positive response here from EV owners who will see their interest first.
I could physically have an EV and recharge it on my own PV too but i do not live in a flat...







mullokintyre said:


> As others have pointed out,  those living in the city will be fine, as most of their charging can be done at home, and only rarely travel long distances requiring mid trip recharge.
> Bad luck about the rest of us, but most people living outside the cites have already had to cope with poor service in every other aspect of life.
> Mick



Not if they live in flat with most probably insurances preventing understorey carparks for EV.
We might have to wait for a couple of catastrophic bbq towers before..but will come


----------



## sptrawler (2 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As others have pointed out,  those living in the city will be fine, as most of their charging can be done at home, and only rarely travel long distances requiring mid trip recharge.
> Bad luck about the rest of us, but most people living outside the cites have already had to cope with poor service in every other aspect of life.
> Mick



Living at home in the city is o.k for a while, but when the missus wants to go away for a weekend and early uptake husband who talked her into the E.V breaks out in a rash and a cold sweat while explaining why they can't is another.
Worse still if he is sitting in the drivers seat in a queue for 5 hrs waiting for a charge, or worse still a tilt bed truck because there isn't a charger, meanwhile the missus is in the passenger seat and you've lost reception all picture no sound. 🤣


----------



## JohnDe (2 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I feel sorry for the early uptakers that bought the dream, but didn't buy the extended range.




More so the models that manufacturers have not invested in charging infrastructure.

My wife and travel, we always drive long distances to explore our state. On our extended holidays we try and make it a plan that we fly one year and drive the next for long periods.

Due to Covid we haven't been able to do mush of our long distance driving (2000+km) until a few months ago when we drove intestate, posted here 

Tesla has made it very easy to travel, because they knew that to succeed they would have to make their product as useable as an ICEV. As they sold their cars they were also building charging infrastructure, in easy to access locations and making the whole experience user-friendly.

The other vehicle manufacturers have started from behind, they are using most of their resources to try and change the factories and get stock out the door. 

This is why we need governments to stop going on about EV subsidies and instead coordinate with industry to build reliable charging stations.

Lucky I decided on the Tesla, otherwise I'd be using my ICEV for our long drives.


----------



## rederob (3 June 2022)

Tesla is being challenged by *BYD *for leadership in the BEV stakes, knocking out half a million vehicles so far this year:


Judging by the way Chinese automakers ramp up sales towards year end, it is possible for BYD to crank out close to 200K units by December.  If that were to happen, then BYD would be on track to deliver well over 2M units next year.
Potentially stopping BYD is the Chinese approach to lockdowns, which more than anything affects its supply chains, it having 6 separate factories, and more being built.  It won't be affected by battery or chip shortages, as it's vertical integration takes care of those items.
With luck that means the Atto3 I have on order will actually arrive in July, as promised.


----------



## qldfrog (5 June 2022)

I Rented an Electric Car for a Four-Day Road Trip. I Spent More Time Charging It Than I Did Sleeping.
					

Our writer drove from New Orleans to Chicago and back to test the feasibility of taking a road trip in an EV. She wouldn’t soon do it again.




					www.wsj.com
				



A bit of reality from time to time


----------



## JohnDe (6 June 2022)

> *Electric vehicles help farmers drive savings*
> 
> Electric side-by-sides have hit farm tracks, and some owners said they were a viable alternative to the petrol- or diesel-powered equivalent.
> 
> ...


----------



## rederob (6 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The above is one of those statements that people seem to think that if you state it enough times, people will believe its true.



It's based on consumer research - 54% of consumers would consider buying an EV (if one was actually available!) as their next car.


mullokintyre said:


> Firstly, car makers are there to make a buck. They are not there to help out the environment, or  help people achieve their lifelong dreams etc etc.



Legacy automaker sales are plummeting while NEV sales are doubling.  Tesla and BYD -  both solely manufacturers of NEVs - are number 1 and 3 respectively amongst all automakers.
Furthermore, Musk has a clear intention of being socially responsible with this *telling statement from Elon Musk himself on Twitter:*
*“When Tesla’s market cap, making sustainable energy products, exceeds that of Aramco, producing fossil fuels, you know the future will be good for Earth.”*​


mullokintyre said:


> Secondly, what proof does anyone have that car makers prioritise their sales because of strict vehicle emission standards.



That has been posted on previously, as the words come direct from automakers.
*Volkswagen said stricter fuel standards would incentivise EV uptake.*


mullokintyre said:


> Why do the big manufacturers  build big plants  in China?
> Is it because they want to hep the Chinese economy?
> Hell no, its cheap labour and they are right in the middle of one of the bigger car markets in the world.



China no longer is considered to have cheap labour.  Automakers set up in China because it has the world's best supply chains for everything manufactured, and also happens to be the the biggest car market.


mullokintyre said:


> Thirdly, do people seriously believe that the vehicles delivered have been detuned to only meet the Australian emissions standards?
> Hell no, they exactly the same as the European, American or Chinese  sales.
> If the government were to increase the emission standards to that of the Europeans , do people really think that the EV makers would suddenly  flood us with product because they are so grateful for these high emission standards?



The point is that we have been overlooked by the worlds automakers, and now get the dregs of availability.  So nowadays buying an EV here is like trying to win the Stawell gift as the backmarker when we are the slowest runner.


mullokintyre said:


> We are a pissy little backwater, that create headaches for car makers because
> (a) we are right hand drive mob that  causes them to retool every time a RHD shipment is prepared.



Only the dash layout is different, so any retooling is minor, while the production runs for RHD lines are as commercially lucrative as for LHDs.


mullokintyre said:


> (b)We are a long way from  the manufacturers, and  sea shipping is expensive.



Same cost for an EV or an ICEV to be shipped, so that makes no sense.


mullokintyre said:


> (c) The OZ car sales numbers  are equivalent to a rounding error in the sales spreadsheet of worldwide production.



Because of previous policies... and if you don't believe that, then look at Norway, the UK or across the ditch (New Zealand).


----------



## JohnDe (6 June 2022)

Some interesting comments about EV supply and BYD swap stations


----------



## JohnDe (8 June 2022)

We're going to see a lot more EV batteries for home electricity storage, especially with the coming price rises. 

_"Once a battery has reached the end of its usable life in a vehicle, however, the cells can still be used for power storage, grid stabilisation, or to power a home or business that might otherwise run on renewable energy, with the World Economic Forum suggesting they could solve the “energy-storage conundrum” presented by solar and wind-power generation."_​


> *Used EV batteries get a second lease on life*
> 
> Second-life EV batteries hold the key to the global shift to a renewable power supply, acting as a crucial resource to power homes, stabilise new and existing grid infrastructure, and even power airports, according to the World Economic Forum.
> 
> ...


----------



## rederob (9 June 2022)

More Chinese automakers are taking on Teslas, but we are not going to see these models in Australia any time soon.
This one is from Leap Motors:


The Leap Motor C01 630 Pro+ four-wheel drive is its top-performance variant and comes with two electric drives that allow it to go from zero to a hundred kph in 3.66 seconds.  Priced between USD$26,770 and $39,750 it comes with a lifetime warranty for the first owner in China, and already has over 45k pre-orders.

Next is the NIO ET5 which is about to go into production:


Both these cars would sell like hotcakes here as they represent unbeatable value on technology, performance and price, not to mention good looks.  Lets hope they keep getting better for when they do eventually hit our shores.


----------



## SirRumpole (9 June 2022)

Drop in EV prices possible as Lithium prices fall.









						Electric cars could get cheaper as a crucial component in them drops in price
					

The cost of electric cars could start to fall, with the price of a core component in EV batteries expected to reduce, according to Credit Suisse analysts.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2022)

Not exactly E.V but along the mobile electric pathway, the EU has legislated that all mobile phones must have the same charger, hooray.
I wonder if the enlightenment will flow through to E.V's?









						An iPhone without Lightning is inevitable, but Apple’s stalling for time
					

Apple may be forced to ditch the iPhone’s proprietary Lightning port in the coming years thanks to incoming EU laws.




					www.smh.com.au
				



Apple may be forced to ditch the iPhone’s proprietary Lightning port in the coming years, as European lawmakers have reached a deal on legislation that would oblige all portable tech to use USB-C for wired charging. *But while Apple has pushed back against the proposed laws, the regulatory push shouldn’t be a surprise for the iPhone-maker.
The European Union has been campaigning for a common charging connector for more than a decade*, finally announcing its intention to legislate in September last year. And for almost as long, Apple has been using its Lightning port, which it introduced for the iPhone 5 in 2012.


----------



## JohnDe (9 June 2022)

This is what enterprising people can do, rather than cry for government to subsidize and pander to the large automotive manufacturers, they go out and build - 

_Paul Smith joins the electromod movement_​_British stripy sock designer Paul Smith has lent his name to a Mini Recharged project, electromodding one of his 1998 Mini Paul Smith Editions._​​_Mini says Sir Paul is the ‘creative mind behind this collaboration’ and the one-off does appear a striking blend of minimalist exterior and interior with some high-quality, expensive-looking additions to go with the electric drivetrain._​​_On the hardware front, engineers from ‘Recharged Heritage Limited’ have take the ’98 Mini, ripped out its internal combustion bits and fitted a 72kW electric motor._​​_A team at Mini’s plant in Oxford, UK, established the Mini Recharge project earlier this year, converting classic Minis to electric drive for big spending clients._​​_Style first_​_We’re promised more details will be revealed soon, as no information on the batteries used, the car’s range or performance are mentioned, although we can see the charge point is in place of the rear fuel filler cap._​​_The style and modernisation of this Brit classic are championed first, as the designer states: “Three things describe this car perfectly: quality, sustainability and functionality.”_​​_This isn’t the first time Smith has embraced a sustainable Mini. Last year he showed off the Mini Strip, a one-off design exercise that began life as a Mini Cooper SE EV but has been pared back and reimagined as a car built for “simplicity, transparency, sustainability.” Bare metal, sustainable/recycled materials, minimal trim… you get the picture._​​_This new project has instead taken a 1998 Mini Paul Smith Edition – a limited-to-1,800 special edition of the classic mini shape – and “made the car totally relevant for today,” Smith said._​​_


	

		
			
		

		
	
MINI Recharged by Paul Smith, a 1998 Mini converted to run on a 72kW electric motor_​_This prototype with classic Mini body sports a bright blue colour – based on a swatch take from one of Paul Smith’s favourite shirts, so you know – while the lime green battery box ‘recalls a 1990s colour palette.’ You’ll notice the rather smart green British map seen on the electric Mini’s grille, too._​​_Stunning minimalist cabin_​_The cabin looks suitably expensive. Like the Mini Strip, the newly designed car favours reduction and sustainability. Trim has been chucked out, there’s an unclad floor pan and ‘rustic’ floor mats made of recycled rubber._​​_We’re told Paul Smith’s design ‘leaves out entire instruments in other places’ while a magnet next to the steering wheel accommodates a smartphone which ‘replaces almost all the old buttons and functions on the dashboard.’ Blessedly, the classic Mini central speedometer remains._​​_


	

		
			
		

		
	
Stunning bare-bones interior is minimalist cool but still with central speedo. Most other instruments are through the smartphone._​_The exposed metalwork, quality-looking switches, door handles, window winders and long metal gear shifter all appear first class, while the steering wheel can be completely removed to facilitate entry and exit. And, well, because it’s a cool thing to do._​​_“We have made a 1990s car totally relevant for today,” is how the designer describes it. “Ideas are never the problem, you can find them everywhere. The challenge is to implement them. Here it worked. A dream has come true.”_​​_It’s just a one-off prototype, set to be given its world premiere at the Salone del Mobile 2022 in Milan this week. Its price? Let’s not even think about it…_​


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## Value Collector (9 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Not exactly E.V but along the mobile electric pathway, the EU has legislated that all mobile phones must have the same charger, hooray.
> I wonder if the enlightenment will flow through to E.V's?
> 
> 
> ...



The problem with this sort of legislation is that it prevents progress.

For example The USB C port will be a great platform for charging and data transfer, But is this rule was brought in 5 years ago, then we wouldn’t be able to use the USB C, we would be stuck with the Micro, or if the rule came 10years with would be stuck with something even worse.

So I kind of feel that development will stop and what ever the next thing is might never happen.


----------



## JohnDe (9 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Drop in EV prices possible as Lithium prices fall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




More reasons to scrap the idea of governments assisting buyers with tax cuts and fringe benefits, and instead concentrate on the infrastructure.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Drop in EV prices possible as Lithium prices fall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This sort of reporting really peeves me.
Reporters never seem to be capable of taking the obvious  next step - namely exactly what how much lithium  is used in an EV.
A quick check from  This Article shows that back in 2016, a 70KW Model  S had a battery pack weighing 453 kg's.
The lithium part weighed  around 63 kg.
Tesla has since then reduced their lithium component in each cell we will stick to this figure.
At US 6,000 a tonne the article quoted as current price, the lithium component amounts toUS  378 bucks.
According to Car USnews the Model S starting price is a few bucks shy of USD100k.
The cost of lithium would barely get you a set of mats for the car.
So even if the cost of lithium were to fall to zero, it would save the maker less than 1% of the selling price of the car.
And people wonder why i have such a dim view of media journalists.
Mick


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## JohnDe (9 June 2022)

This is a helpful breakdown -














						Breaking Down the Cost of an EV Battery Cell
					

The average cost of EV batteries has fallen by 89% since 2010. What makes up the cost of a single EV battery cell?




					www.visualcapitalist.com


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## qldfrog (9 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> This sort of reporting really peeves me.
> Reporters never seem to be capable of taking the obvious  next step - namely exactly what how much lithium  is used in an EV.
> A quick check from  This Article shows that back in 2016, a 70KW Model  S had a battery pack weighing 453 kg's.
> The lithium part weighed  around 63 kg.
> ...



Easy:


----------



## JohnDe (9 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> This sort of reporting really peeves me.
> Reporters never seem to be capable of taking the obvious  next step - namely exactly what how much lithium  is used in an EV.
> A quick check from  This Article shows that back in 2016, a 70KW Model  S had a battery pack weighing 453 kg's.
> The lithium part weighed  around 63 kg.
> ...




True, but I suppose they're talking about hundreds of thousands of batteries. And Lithium is not the only cost of a battery.



> *Battery costs rise as lithium demand outstrips supply*
> 
> The price of batteries for electric vehicles looks set to rise in 2022 following a decade of sharp decline as supplies of lithium and other raw materials fail to keep up with ballooning demand.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The problem with this sort of legislation is that it prevents progress.
> 
> For example The USB C port will be a great platform for charging and data transfer, But is this rule was brought in 5 years ago, then we wouldn’t be able to use the USB C, we would be stuck with the Micro, or if the rule came 10years with would be stuck with something even worse.
> 
> So I kind of feel that development will stop and what ever the next thing is might never happen.



You may be right, but development and technology moves on, standards usually have to move with it.
I'm not sure it will curtail development, it will just mean the manufacturers have to agree to have a standard charging protocol, if technology demands a different plug type then I would think that will happen, it will just mean that the manufacturers have to agree to a standard when adopting the new protocol.
It is somewhat like RCA plugs were the go 20 years ago, now most things are HDMI or bluetooth connected, but each manufacturer doesn't have a different connector and those with older RCA equipped plugs can buy adaptors.
E.V's have a similar issue, Tesla, Leaf and others can have different plugs, it will make it increasingly difficult unless they all learn to live together, as more and more E.V's arrive on the road.
CCS2 appears to be rising to the surface, but again from memory the EU legislated that, didn't they?
Somewhat like how much of a problem it would be in the house, if every appliance had a different plug top, depending on which Country it came from. That's why we have Australian standards and to sell an electrical appliance here it has to have the Aust style three pin plug and be able to operate correctly on 230-240vac and 50hz.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> True, but I suppose they're talking about hundreds of thousands of batteries. And Lithium is not the only cost of a battery.



The article only mentioned lithium.
Read it, and you will see that according to the, the  Lithium price has a huge impact on the price of batteries, because a fa;ll in prices will contribute to a fall in  battery and hence EV prices.
I am commenting purely on the article in question, not the overall cost of battery production.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (9 June 2022)

From  The new Daily . Not sure how reliable the source is, 


> The European Parliament has approved a draft law that prohibits the sale of new carbon dioxide-emitting vehicles, set to take effect in 2035.
> 
> If the legislation enters into force, it would very likely lead to the end of combustion-engine powered cars and vans in the bloc.
> 
> ...



It is 13 years away before it goes into effect if the law is indeed passed.
So when will the car manufacturers cease production of ICE vehicles (or for that matter PHEV, hybrids etc). 
Or will they keep producing them to sell in other countries (like USA, OZ, China or maybe African countries).
As has been remarked before, Australia really has little choice in what happens to the vehicle market, we take what we are given, not what we want.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (9 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> From  The new Daily . Not sure how reliable the source is,
> 
> It is 13 years away before it goes into effect if the law is indeed passed.
> So when will the car manufacturers cease production of ICE vehicles (or for that matter PHEV, hybrids etc).
> ...



As with all decisions in life, you pay your money, you take your chances.  
Then you have to listen endlessly, to the sad stories of those who made the wrong choice, be that ICE or E.V.
It's a bit like Beta cord or VHS, 8 Track or cassette, LPG or petrol.


----------



## qldfrog (10 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As with all decisions in life, you pay your money, you take your chances.
> Then you have to listen endlessly, to the sad stories of those who made the wrong choice, be that ICE or E.V.
> It's a bit like Beta cord or VHS, 8 Track or cassette, LPG or petrol.



That is why your next ICE should be chinese or Indian.
In the meantime,let the EU collapses in its wetdreams.
Make sure not to be drown with them so invest wisely
Rome or should i say Brussel is burning, and it is not caused by CC...and the Vandals are in the walls


----------



## mullokintyre (10 June 2022)

From Go Auto


> VICTORIA’S state government could introduce an “environmental registration levy” on vehicles with engine capacities over two litres to fund a push into zero-emission vehicles.
> 
> 
> Federal and state governments are now looking at ways to get Australians into zero-emission vehicles, including offering subsidies to EV buyers.
> ...



Govt denies the policy, so we just need to accept them  at their word.
A rumour starting on a 3AW talkback show is hardly a source that one might give credence.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (10 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> From  The new Daily . Not sure how reliable the source is,
> 
> It is 13 years away before it goes into effect if the law is indeed passed.
> So when will the car manufacturers cease production of ICE vehicles (or for that matter PHEV, hybrids etc).
> ...




You can scrap China from that theory. And with the worlds largest vehicle manufacturers transitioning to EV production there wont be many ICE manufacturers left. Possible a few high end luxury/sport manufacturers, and some medium level consumer ICEV manufacturing in developing countries.
​_China’s market for new energy vehicles (NEVs), comprising mainly electric and hybrid-powered vehicles, surged by 157% to a record 3,521,000 units in 2021, according to passenger car and commercial vehicle wholesale data released by the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers (CAAM)._​​_Sales of battery-powered electric vehicles (BEVs) increased by 161% to 2,916,000 units in 2021, making China by far the world’s largest single market for these vehicles, while sales of hybrid vehicle rose by 141% to 605,000 units. Together they accounted for all of the automotive market’s near 4% growth last year, while sales of conventional internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles fell by over 5% to 23.9 million units – according to the association’s data. This includes a 4% decline in deliveries of ICE passenger vehicles to 18,148,000 units and an 8% drop in ICE commercial vehicles to 4,607,000 units._​​_2021 was the fourth consecutive year of decline for ICE vehicle sales in China and it looks like this trend will continue uninterrupted, as NEVs claim an increasingly large share of the local market. For ICE vehicle sales in China, terminal decline is already well underway._​​







						NEVs driving growth in China as ICE decline continues
					

Sales of electric vehicles are surging in China, despite headwinds.




					www.just-auto.com


----------



## JohnDe (10 June 2022)




----------



## wayneL (10 June 2022)

Just a bit of levity folks:


----------



## Value Collector (11 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As with all decisions in life, you pay your money, you take your chances.
> Then you have to listen endlessly, to the sad stories of those who made the wrong choice, be that ICE or E.V.
> It's a bit like Beta cord or VHS, 8 Track or cassette, LPG or petrol.



Ice cars are VHS
hybrids are DVD
electrics are internet streaming.

The concept of EV’s sounds crazy to some groups, in much the same way that streaming video over the internet would have sounded in the year 2000.

But yet in 2010 Block buster video went bankrupt, and today almost everyone’s TVs are connected to the internet, even my 86 year old grandmothers smart TV is connected to the internet.

Can you imagine how many reason people would have given in 2000 as to why Internet streamed TV wouldn’t be a thing, yet here we are all looking back in disbelief that we used to have to rent videos from block buster in the first place.

To me installing vehicles chargers and selling ev’s is a way smaller change than moving from VHS rentals to video streaming.


----------



## qldfrog (11 June 2022)

Anyone looked at plugged in hybrid especially mg one?
I think PI hybrid would be ideal for us.
Just found https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/phev-on-sale-in-australia


----------



## wayneL (11 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Ice cars are VHS
> hybrids are DVD
> electrics are internet streaming.
> 
> ...



I'll believe that when I see the schleppers driving a clapped out EV to go pick up their dole. (Who all have streaming video)


----------



## sptrawler (11 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Anyone looked at plugged in hybrid especially mg one?
> I think PI hybrid would be ideal for us.
> Just found https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/phev-on-sale-in-australia



I looked into them, but the numbers didn't stack up, the electric range was limited, the new price wasn't much different to pure EV, the Govt were putting 2c/km charge on them, servicing costs were higher, so I went pure EV.
The best PHEV on paper seemed to be the Mitsubishi Outlander, the new one sounds as though it will be quite expensive, the superceded one was about $50-55k. The MG was about $50k.
I liked the idea of PHEV but for me the option of  having the ICE backup for long distances, wasn't essential, now the son has moved closer to where we live.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I looked into them, but the numbers didn't stack up, the electric range was limited, the new price wasn't much different to pure EV, the Govt were putting 2c/km charge on them, servicing costs were higher, so I went pure EV.
> The best PHEV on paper seemed to be the Mitsubishi Outlander, the new one sounds as though it will be quite expensive, the superceded one was about $50-55k. The MG was about $50k.
> I liked the idea of PHEV but for me the option of  having the ICE backup for long distances, wasn't essential, now the son has moved closer to where we live.



 I talked to a number of PHEv owners here in the sticks, and the general consensus was that the ICE was running 90% of the time.
On the freeway at 110 they tended to run out of Ev power very quickly and the iCE came on and stayed on.
Fine for short trips at 60 l around town, but not for sustained regional driving.
Mick


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## JohnDe (11 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> I'll believe that when I see the schleppers driving a clapped out EV to go pick up their dole. (Who all have streaming video)


----------



## JohnDe (11 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I looked into them, but the numbers didn't stack up, the electric range was limited, the new price wasn't much different to pure EV, the Govt were putting 2c/km charge on them, servicing costs were higher, so I went pure EV.
> The best PHEV on paper seemed to be the Mitsubishi Outlander, the new one sounds as though it will be quite expensive, the superceded one was about $50-55k. The MG was about $50k.
> I liked the idea of PHEV but for me the option of  having the ICE backup for long distances, wasn't essential, now the son has moved closer to where we live.




I no longer see the reasoning for Hybrids. Their electric range is limited by the battery size, which makes them more suited for local driving, the petrol engine ensures that long distance driving is possible.  Th problem with those two packages in one car is that if you mainly drive local then you might as well just get an EV, if you mainly drive long distance then get an ICE, if you do a combination of both get a proven long distance EV.

_The company claims 84 kilometres of all-electric driving range, according to Australia's notoriously-lenient ADR81/02 test protocols_ 2022 Mitsubishi Outlander Plug-in Hybrid


----------



## Value Collector (11 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> I'll believe that when I see the schleppers driving a clapped out EV to go pick up their dole. (Who all have streaming video)



Haha, considering they probably all drive bombed out used cars, I wouldn’t use them as the leading indicator, naturally they will be the last group to get them.

I am sure they weren’t the first group to get smart TV’s or internet connections either.

If you were waiting for the “schleppers” to get smart TV’s and Netflix to be your indicator to sell your Blockbuster shares, I think you would have still been holding your Block Buster shares at the 2010 bankruptcy hearings 😂.


----------



## Value Collector (11 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I talked to a number of PHEv owners here in the sticks, and the general consensus was that the ICE was running 90% of the time.
> On the freeway at 110 they tended to run out of Ev power very quickly and the iCE came on and stayed on.
> Fine for short trips at 60 l around town, but not for sustained regional driving.
> Mick



Even on the freeway it’s still flicking between the two and sometimes using both.

Eg. There petrol engine might be running, but not revving as hard as it would be in a pure ice, because the two can be working together.


----------



## wayneL (11 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Haha, considering they probably all drive bombed out used cars, I wouldn’t use them as the leading indicator.
> 
> I am sure they weren’t the first group to get smart TV’s or internet connections either.
> 
> If you were waiting for the “schleppers” to smart TV’s and Netflix to be your indicator to sell your Blockbuster shares, I think you would have still been holding your Block Buster shares at the 2010 bankruptcy hearings 😂.



Ummm, extrapolating my investment decisions based on my comments above is a bit if a stretch there, old bean.

My point is that I have trouble seeing them being viable at the low end of the market, new, or second hand, unless they they depreciate so violently that the schleps can buy them for next to nothing and just dump them in the bush when there are significant repair costs or battery replacement etc.

Who knows, maybe that's how it will turn out.


----------



## Value Collector (11 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> Ummm, extrapolating my investment decisions based on my comments above is a bit if a stretch there, old bean.
> 
> My point is that I have trouble seeing them being viable at the low end of the market, new, or second hand, unless they they depreciate so violently that the schleps can buy them for next to nothing and just dump them in the bush when there are significant repair costs or battery replacement etc.
> 
> Who knows, maybe that's how it will turn out.



The old batteries will be valuable as scrap metal as will be the electric motors so I doubt people will be dumping them in the bush.

But the vehicles that populate the used car market are simply a result of the vehicles that people by new, the more New evs that get sold the more evs will end up in the used car market.

Also, the newer Tesla batteries are predicted to last more than the life of the car, even the exisiting ones have a life of over 350,000 km which most Aussie cars hit the scrap heap before that anyway.


----------



## rederob (11 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The old batteries will be valuable as scrap metal as will be the electric motors so I doubt people will be dumping them in the bush.
> 
> But the vehicles that populate the used car market are simply a result of the vehicles that people by new, the more New evs that get sold the more evs will end up in the used car market.
> 
> Also, the newer Tesla batteries are predicted to last more than the life of the car, even the exisiting ones have a life of over 350,000 km which most Aussie cars hit the scrap heap before that anyway.



The other consideration is that not all markets are the same, so China and India will be producing mini EVs for under AU$10k. 
Indonesia is now getting the Wuling "Air" which is even smaller that the best selling EV model in Asia.



I watched a Chinese automaker being interviewed last week and he said the switch to *all EVs* made sense because even in China they could sell every EV that came off their production line.  And in some cases their advance order books meant that that preproduction numbers already carried them into 2023.  Last count *BYD *had over 500K preorders on their full range of models.

One thing the EV market will do, once reasonable numbers are available, is collapse second hand ICEV prices so that decent cars will be stocking car yards at very affordable prices.  And until EV availability is much better, used EV will continue to be sold nearer their original price and occasionally at a premium.

The concept of an old banger will be a Merc, Porsche or Audi as the new status symbols will often begin with a "T".


----------



## mullokintyre (11 June 2022)

The UK authorities have gone one better than the European parliament and  planned to ban new sales of ICE cars by 2030,
From BBC News 


> *New cars and vans powered wholly by petrol and diesel will not be sold in the UK from 2030, Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said.*
> But some hybrids would still be allowed, he confirmed.
> It is part of what Mr Johnson calls a "green industrial revolution" to tackle climate change and create jobs in industries such as nuclear energy.
> Critics say the £4bn allocated to implement the 10-point plan is far too small for the scale of the challenge.
> The total amount of new money announced in the package is a 25th of the projected £100bn cost of high-speed rail, HS2.



Hows that ole song go, anything you can do, I can do better.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (11 June 2022)

rederob said:


> The other consideration is that not all markets are the same, so China and India will be producing mini EVs for under AU$10k.
> Indonesia is now getting the Wuling "Air" which is even smaller that the best selling EV model in Asia.
> View attachment 142765
> 
> ...



I think that is a very good point about the price of evs forcing the price of Second hand ICE down, the only thing that might stop that from happening is the “Osborne effect”


----------



## JohnDe (11 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> My point is that I have trouble seeing them being viable at the low end of the market, new, or second hand, unless they they depreciate so violently that the schleps can buy them for next to nothing and just dump them in the bush when there are significant repair costs or battery replacement etc.
> 
> Who knows, maybe that's how it will turn out.




Some people seem to be salivating at the prospect of cheap Chineses cars coming to our market, I am not. Maybe because I've been involved in the market for 30 odd year and see a lot more than most, and know that cheap does not usually go together with quality and safety.



> CHEAP AND UNSAFE EV SETS BACK THE IMAGE OF CHINESE CARS IN EUROPE BY A DECADE
> 
> The history of Chinese cars in Europe is not without its bumps in the road, most notably in terms of their safety record. And Germany’s automobile club ADAC has been on the forefront of making sure consumers are being made aware of what they’re getting into. Who doesn’t remember the shocking images of the Jiangling Landwind crash test the ADAC carried out in 2005 or that of the Brilliance BS6 two years later? Both cars had a short-lived career in Europe as buyers who initially had been attracted by the seemingly great value for money, were put off by fears of their safety after a possible crash.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (11 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Anyone looked at plugged in hybrid especially mg one?
> I think PI hybrid would be ideal for us.
> Just found https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/phev-on-sale-in-australia



I think the normal hybrid, rather than the PI might suit a lot of people, especially if they dont have solar panels, the initial purchase price is only about $2k more than the ICE and the fuel economy improvement is noticable.


----------



## sptrawler (11 June 2022)

MG stepping up the ante.









						2023 MG 4 electric car revealed as China's Mulan – UPDATE
					

With a four-second 0-100km/h time, Chinese brand MG's new electric hatchback could give drivers of mid-range Teslas a run for their money... for far less




					www.drive.com.au
				



With a four-second 0-100km/h time, Chinese brand MG's new electric hatchback could give drivers of mid-range Teslas a run for their money... for far less money.


----------



## Value Collector (11 June 2022)

Telsa model Y is now available for order in Australia.

This is the one that Mrs VC wants to replace the Model 3 with eventually, it’s built on the same base as the model 3 but has a much bigger boot among other improvements that give it more space and storage.


----------



## basilio (11 June 2022)

This is how North Carolina Republicans intend to (not) progress electric cars. 
You have to read the article. Something else..
I wonder what they would do if electric charging cost was amended to a dime per charge ?

This US state’s radical anti-electric car proposal to ban free EV charging​North Carolina is facing a House Bill that will effectively spell the end of free public electric car charging.









						This US state's radical anti-electric car proposal to ban free EV charging
					

North Carolina is facing a House Bill that will effectively spell the end of free public electric car charging




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (11 June 2022)

basilio said:


> This is how North Carolina Republicans intend to (not) progress electric cars.
> You have to read the article. Something else..
> I wonder what they would do if electric charging cost was amended to a dime per charge ?
> 
> ...



That’s the dumbest thing I have heard, but what should we expect from a state that has already brought in an annual EV tax that means every EV owner has to pay a set amount each year regardless of how much they drive which is equivalent to the fuel tax that a hybrid petrol car owner would spend if they drove 67,000 km per year.


----------



## basilio (11 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That’s the dumbest thing I have heard, but what should we expect from a state that has already brought in an annual EV tax that means every EV owner has to pay a set amount each year regardless of how much they drive which is equivalent to the fuel tax that a hybrid petrol car owner would spend if they drove 67,000 km per year.



FMD!! That is beyond reason.. Do you have a link for that story please ?


----------



## JohnDe (11 June 2022)

Our governments should take a page out of the proposed US National EV Charging Network, instead of just throwing tax cuts for well funded people to buy EVs -



> FACT SHEET: Biden-⁠Harris Administration Proposes New Standards for National Electric Vehicle Charging Network​JUNE 09, 2022STATEMENTS AND RELEASES
> Bipartisan Infrastructure Law Investments to Enable Families to Plug-In, Charge Up, and Drive Across America
> Today, the Biden-Harris Administration is announcing new steps to meet President Biden’s goal to build out the first-ever national network of 500,000 electric vehicle chargers along America’s highways and in communities, a key piece of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.
> The Department of Transportation, in partnership with the Department of Energy, is proposing new standards to make charging electric vehicles (EVs) a convenient, reliable, and affordable for all Americans, including when driving long distances. Without strong standards, chargers would be less reliable, may not work for all cars, or lack common payment methods. The new standards will ensure everyone can use the network –no matter what car you drive or which state you charge in.
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (11 June 2022)

basilio said:


> FMD!! That is beyond reason.. Do you have a link for that story please ?



Here is a link with the breakdown of all the states in the USA that charge additional fees for EV’s

In the USA petrol users pay 4.8 cents per Litre (18cents per gallon), in North Carolina the charge Ev’s an additional EV tax of $140 / year which doesn’t sound that much until you realise that to generate that revenue from the petrol tax at 4.8 cents a Litre a Hybrid using a little under 4L / 100 km needs to drive over 60,000 km.

https://www.myev.com/research/inter...rge-extra-fees-to-own-an-electric-vehicle/amp


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## qldfrog (11 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I talked to a number of PHEv owners here in the sticks, and the general consensus was that the ICE was running 90% of the time.
> On the freeway at 110 they tended to run out of Ev power very quickly and the iCE came on and stayed on.
> Fine for short trips at 60 l around town, but not for sustained regional driving.
> Mick



Basically, ute can not be replaced but for the daily run to the post office, cafe and occasional shopping, a 50km or 60km pure ev range is plenty and that would be the purpose.but true considering the price difference, why not going fulll bbq starter😉.
I just hate producing power and giving away for basically free..and as i still plan to move soon, not ready to go full off grid with battery..so a PI hybrid or pure EV is a half way which can move with us....
But not at Tesla price.i never bought a beemer to be a gold wearing white shirt wxxxer, so no interest to be a green woke one either😊


----------



## mullokintyre (11 June 2022)

My wife and I were in WA for a few weeks recently, and hired an MG to travel around the south west.
Had originally booked a Subaru Forester but  got a brand new MG instead.
Neither of us were very impressed.
The headlights were terrible - the fancy overhang they have at the front created a black spot either side of the beam.
The cruise control surged something chronic, and the auto gearbox  was never quite sure when to change from 1st to second after takeoff resulting in a sort of hesitation around 20k an hour.
The cruise control stalk is placed underneath the steering wheel binacle such that you cannot see it when driving, it has to be operated by feel. Not great on the ergonomics.
The  USB charging ports worked intermittently even after we went and bought a new cable thinking ours was faulty.
The good part, the seats were comfortable, and the climate control worked well.
I would not be looking at an MG based on that trial.
Mick


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## qldfrog (11 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> My wife and I were in WA for a few weeks recently, and hired an MG to travel around the south west.
> Had originally booked a Subaru Forester but  got a brand new MG instead.
> Neither of us were very impressed.
> The headlights were terrible - the fancy overhang they have at the front created a black spot either side of the beam.
> ...



Thanks,will make sure i test drive before buying


----------



## JohnDe (12 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Not exactly E.V but along the mobile electric pathway, the EU has legislated that all mobile phones must have the same charger, hooray.
> I wonder if the enlightenment will flow through to E.V's?
> 
> 
> ...




_"Can Eurocrats be blamed for craving a bit of the spotlight their national counterparts enjoy? The phone-charger rule provoked more headlines than decades of sensible proposals on regulating chemicals or life insurance ever have, and for which Brussels deserves more credit than it gets. Mandating how phones are juiced is a case of the eu getting closer to the daily concerns of citizens—but also further from where it can be most useful."_​


> Tough luck for iPhone users as Europe imposes a standard phone charger​Love it or loathe it, the measure will bring attention to the EU​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (12 June 2022)

Hyundai going autonomous driving in one of Seoul's busiest districts.
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/hyundai-goes-autonomous-gangnam-style


----------



## sptrawler (12 June 2022)

Sounds like Victoria is picking up the pace with E.V infrastructure roll out, hopefully W.A follows the elad.








						Sparkies to upskill ahead of the decade of electric vehicles
					

Five hundred electricians will take part in a new free pilot program to install and fix charging stations for electric vehicles.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:
Demand on public charging stations is increasing, with the number of EVs on Victorian roads tripling over just three years. Data from the state government released in March shows there were 10,311 registered electric vehicles in Victoria in June 2021, up from 3398 vehicles in June 2018.
There are now more than 960 charging stations in Victoria, according to EV charger map Plugshare.com.

Minister for Training and Skills Gayle Tierney said there was “momentum” building up around EV purchases in Victoria, and the infrastructure needed to grow as demand increases.


The Victorian government has promised a further 141 EV chargers at 116 sites installed by July 2023, with just under 2500 rebates of $3000 still available for EVs bought for less than $68,740 in the state.


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## sptrawler (13 June 2022)

I wonder if this situation is across the board, it sounds as though it is becoming common place, hopefully the buyer can cancel the contract if the increase puts them in financial difficulty.









						Most LDV Australia prices to increase next month
					

Prices across most LDV G10, T60, D90 and V80 models will increase on July 1 – and only buyers that take delivery before June 30 will be exempt.




					www.drive.com.au
				




Prices across most LDV G10, T60, D90 and V80 models will increase on July 1, for all buyers that haven't taken delivery before the end of June – no matter how long you've been in the queue.
Chinese brand *LDV* will increase prices across four of its five model lines from 1 July – and only buyers who take delivery before the end of this month will be free from the price increases.
From 1 July, prices of the LDV's seven-seat D90 SUV, T60 Max ute, V80 van, and most G10 van variants will increase for private buyers and ABN holders by between $500 and $1053, depending on variant – attributed to increased manufacturing and shipping costs.
LDV's Australian distributor Ateco will offer "price protection" for buyers – but only if their vehicle is "delivered" before the end of this month, irrespective of when they placed an order, or when the vehicle was built.


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## sptrawler (15 June 2022)

An article that lists approx range for E.V's available in W.A









						Every electric car in Australia, ranked by range
					

How far can you drive in an electric car? There’s no easy answer – but we’ve attempted to simplify things by ranking every model available in Australia by




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## rederob (16 June 2022)

If there is one thing that I especially enjoy, it has to be reading *crap *from people who are regarded as experts.
The linked Bloomberg intelligence global battery electric vehicle report: Automakers race to the top, has VW ahead of Tesla by 2025:


*VW are so far behind they have no hope:*


To get ahead you have to plan ahead, and that's what Tesla and BYD have done, much better than VW.  Both these companies have been sorting out their supply chains and building new battery and EV manufacturing factories, while VW still has a massive ICEV legacy to shake off.

So as we stand, VW has to get ahead of 3 competitors, 2 of whom are just starting their global EV product launches: BYD and SAIC are already knocking out inexpensive (but not "cheap") EV's and Tesla doesn't need to because their cars sell themselves. 

What Bloomberg forgets is that Tesla has something like 2M pre-orders to satisfy, while BYD's numbers continues to climb, standing around 500K at the moment.  Those numbers are testimony to demand, and VW has nothing comparable.

Topping off their shambolic analysis is their view that China will have a 25% market share of BEVs in 2025, but in April China already had a 29% EV share, and only BYD's


----------



## rederob (16 June 2022)

... and only BYD's PHEV numbers need to decline for the BEV percentage to hit 25% in 2023 at the latest.
(BYD has retained a PHEV platform so as to maintain sourcing parts for its legacy ICEVS.  It's a pretty smart move, especially during a period where charging station rollouts do not yet cover western China's distances that well.)


----------



## qldfrog (17 June 2022)

Going to see a MG dealer today.
Have a look at what they have,more interested in the byd atto3..after researches on line
but each time, my financially aware mind tells me: it makes no sense.

I looked at my daily run .not the road trips which can not be done with an ev anyways as we do dirt road out there trips when we do
I average around 200km a week for these or $32 a week fuel which could be free on EV/pi hybrid via rooftop
Let's say $50 a week if petrol goes up and up..but at that price, i can run on vegetable oil from aldi.
50x$52=$2.5k a year saving on fiel for runabout.
The first year saving..with current fuel price will go in smoke when i buy a charger and have it installed.
In 10y my battery is gone, probably more 7y but let's be optimistic
so i need to pay back the difference in 9 years at $2.5k max a year.
And that is wo km extra tax and fully free energy from PV
22.5k is the maximum extra i can spend on an ev or pi hybrid vs normal runabout.
Min price driveway for ev/PI is around 47 k so any car available below 25k driveway save me money.
And these will consume less than 8l per 100
Plenty to choose....remember, we are talking shopping/coffee run..not interstate travel and the above numbers are attrociously chosen to be pro EV as i like the tech and toy factor.
If you add the fact i already have 2 cars and do not need to buy a brand new one for a runabout, this is even crazier.
In 2022, EV or PI hybrid makes no $ sense..and not even sure environment wise...there are better ways to spend/waste your money to save the planet 
Anyway,will go and see if i can be pushed to buy an EV ..after all, not all decisions are rational choices.


----------



## moXJO (17 June 2022)

rederob said:


> If there is one thing that I especially enjoy, it has to be reading *crap *from people who are regarded as experts.
> The linked Bloomberg intelligence global battery electric vehicle report: Automakers race to the top, has VW ahead of Tesla by 2025:
> View attachment 142942
> 
> ...



Bloomberg has numerous articles that are very poorly researched. Can't trust anything these days.


----------



## SirRumpole (17 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That’s the dumbest thing I have heard, but what should we expect from a state that has already brought in an annual EV tax that means every EV owner has to pay a set amount each year regardless of how much they drive which is equivalent to the fuel tax that a hybrid petrol car owner would spend if they drove 67,000 km per year.




Yes, it is pretty stupid, but it' a forerunner to what's in store for EV owners there and here.

Governments have to replace the fuel tax revenue somehow, otherwise there have to be cutbacks in other areas.

Maybe you have some suggestions as to a fairer method of replacing fuel tax revenue ?


----------



## SirRumpole (17 June 2022)

Ferrari to go 50% electric by 2030.






						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## SirRumpole (17 June 2022)

It will be interesting to see if Labor steps up to the plate on efficiency standards.









						Electric vehicles are racing ahead overseas, so why isn't that happening in Australia?
					

Australia's position as a laggard in the global EV race is unlikely to change despite the election of a more clean-transport-friendly Labor government, say industry experts.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## qldfrog (17 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It will be interesting to see if Labor steps up to the plate on efficiency standards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From abc..the great deceiver.
Back to reality, I went and looked at the MG PI hybrid...nice car BUT disappointed by the fact that there is not braking recharge of the battery ..WTH???
so you just charge it and when battery is empty run on gas..Better off buying the MG3 below 20K driveway as a second car.availability of the full EV will be end of year at best now as all shipped EV arriving soon are presold.
2y waiting list for some non MG model I also inquired about..no kidding..crazy, you purchase a new car with the latest colour and it is outmoded by the time you step in it...
no point changing efficiency standard or adding charger, you can hardly get a car delivered..even ICEs..the slow move to the Argentina-tion of Australia as I pointed 15y or so ago..we are getting there


----------



## sptrawler (17 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> 2y waiting list for some non MG model I also inquired about..no kidding..crazy, you purchase a new car with the latest colour and it is outmoded by the time you step in it...



A mate ordered an ICE Hyundai i20N on the 9 December, when he ordered it they showed him a list of 5 available cars, he wanted white with white roof, the only white one had a black roof it was $1,000 extra but the cars are on the ship.
So he ordered it, now remember it was there on a print out on a ship, he received the car last week, so that is 9 December to mid June 6 months.
My guess, they are not building anything until there is an order, with a deposit.


----------



## sptrawler (17 June 2022)

Another article on real life range of various E.V's, I think these actual tests are much better indications of expected range, than the windscreen sticker numbers.









						What's The Real World Highway Range Of Today's Electric Cars? We Test To Find Out
					

We take the most popular electric cars, fully charge them, and then drive them at 70 mph to find out just how far they will go. Which one goes the furthest?




					insideevs.com


----------



## Value Collector (17 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, it is pretty stupid, but it' a forerunner to what's in store for EV owners there and here.
> 
> Governments have to replace the fuel tax revenue somehow, otherwise there have to be cutbacks in other areas.
> 
> Maybe you have some suggestions as to a fairer method of replacing fuel tax revenue ?



I am absolutely fine with an ev tax being addded “eventually” but it definitely shouldn’t be more than petrol cars pay, after all there is already GST on electricity.

Mean while I just got back from NZ, these fuel prices made me miss my Tesla while I was there.


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## SirRumpole (17 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am absolutely fine with an ev tax being addded “eventually” but it definitely shouldn’t be more than petrol cars pay, after all there is already GST on electricity.
> 
> Mean while I just got back from NZ, these fuel prices made me miss my Tesla while I was there.
> 
> ...



Ouch !


----------



## sptrawler (17 June 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Ouch !



Yes and from a W.A perspective, tax by stealth, the W.A Govt ( who are saints ATM), are putting a 2.5c /km tax on E.V's for the loss of(cough) fuel tax.

But they own the electricity system, so they get the money from charging the EV's, and charge the EV's 2.5c/km for the loss of a tax they don't currently get.
Also they now get paid for the fuel people use, rather than the petrol companies, does it matter? Obviously not.

Oh well at least we can't blame the Feds anymore. 

I bet that doesn't hit the media news, I'm old enough to be cynical.😁


----------



## JohnDe (19 June 2022)

_"If you want to see how technology and deglobalisation are changing the global economy, there are few better places to look than the car industry.....Big Auto wants to be more like Tesla, the world’s undisputed ev champion."
As Jim Farley, Ford’s current boss, recently declared, “The most important thing is we vertically integrate. Henry Ford…was right.”_



> *How supply-chain turmoil is remaking the car industry*
> Learning from Elon Musk
> 
> If you want to see how technology and deglobalisation are changing the global economy, there are few better places to look than the car industry. Not only is it going through an epochal shift: away from the internal-combustion engine (ice) and towards electric vehicles (evs). Automobiles are also becoming, in effect, computers on wheels, running as much on processing power as the horse variety. And the pandemic has wreaked havoc on car companies’ complex global supply chains, most prominently of semiconductors. As carmakers electrify, computerise and refashion their supply chains for the new reality, the giant sector is undergoing the greatest transformation in decades.
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (20 June 2022)

Its not an electric car, but an electric plane.
From Swedish All electric aircraft


> The ES-19 was specifically designed to meet the future demand on the market in the area. However, it turned out to be much more appealing for global players than it was expected. This led the young manufacturer to change its model’s EASA (European Union Aviation Safety Agency) certification specification from CS-23 to CS-25. What this means is that the aircraft design will be easier to adapt to the specific requirements of the global market, allowing it to operate in the U.S. as well, for example.
> 
> United is one of the major operators that are betting on this all-electric aircraft, having agreed to purchase up to 200 Swedish ES-19 units.
> 
> ...



They don't say what size the battery pack will need to be, but it will be large.
At least the chargers only have to be in selected places (airports), and they will have to be BIG!
REX could replace their aging SAAB 340's with these and still do most of their regional flights.
The really interesting part is how the  likes of FAA and CASA deem the "minimal fuel requirements" that are present for RPT aircraft.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (20 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Its not an electric car, but an electric plane.
> From Swedish All electric aircraft
> 
> They don't say what size the battery pack will need to be, but it will be large.
> ...



This is an interesting video about electric planes and where they fit in to the grand scheme of air travel.




> At least the chargers only have to be in selected places (airports), and they will have to be BIG!




Not really, if you look at the way planes are fulled at most air ports, I truck big pump truck with a big hose just turns up and connects to an underground pipe or tank and fills the plane up, it could be very similar e.g. some one just rolls up with a power cable, and plugs the plane into an under ground power circuit, and charges the plane, given that the plane is going to sit there for normally a minimum of 30 mins while it loads and un loads, the output of the charging circuit would only need to be about the same as Teslas Truck charger.


----------



## JohnDe (20 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Its not an electric car, but an electric plane.
> From Swedish All electric aircraft
> 
> They don't say what size the battery pack will need to be, but it will be large.
> ...




It will be a long time before we see viable flights of commercial EV planes. 

_"Over the past few years, the battery industry has largely focused on cars, yielding steady, incremental improvements to a particular scientific approach. This involves lithium ions that move between a cathode composed of a few metal oxides—including nickel, cobalt, manganese, and iron—and an anode made of graphite. This classic recipe has gotten pretty good. _​​_But as they approach the theoretical limit of how much energy they can store, lithium-ion batteries remain well short of what’s required for most aircraft._​​_The aviation industry has been grappling with this problem for a while. They need enough power for takeoff, then enough energy to safely cruise over long distances. It’s possible that it will never be practical—and that greener aviation will require other approaches, like hydrogen or synthetic jet fuel."_​



> *What It’ll Take to Get Electric Planes off the Ground*
> The lithium-ion battery is good for moving cars short distances, but aviation requires longer-lasting power. Maybe we need to try other elements.
> 
> A FEW YEARS ago, while driving on a stretch of interstate between Pittsburgh and San Francisco, Venkat Viswanathan began to feel a little existential. His trip was going smoothly—almost too smoothly, he thought. He would hum along for a few hundred miles at a time, stopping briefly for meals or to take in the early summer scenery. It was the classic Great American road trip. And it was hardly remarkable at all that he was doing it in an electric car.
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (20 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> It will be a long time before we see viable flights of commercial EV planes.
> ​



I would not be so sure of that.
six years ago I flew an all electric two seater  aircraft after the US  Oshkosh air show.
The checklist is significantly smaller than a conventional piston engined plane, no engine runups to warm up oil etc, no cycling props, no mixture controls..
Just press the go button and the acceleration was more than surprising.
There are many advantages in using Electricity for planes apart from the  big cost reductions in the  engine and ongoing maintenance as mentioned in the article..
There are no limitations on the performance of the engine as altitude increases, there are no changes in C of G as there is no burn off of fuel, no expensive fuel dumps if an aircraft has to return to base.
Pilot workload would be much lower as there are significantly fewer engine management systems as well as fuel management to worry about.
 The Maximum Take off Weight  and Maximum Landing Weight can be the same,  the decrease in exhaust noise helps overcome EPA regs and maybe even curfews. 
The almost instant torque from the motors will provide  good acceleration such that they expect to operate from runways less than a thousand feet compared to say a Dash 8  that requires 2700 foot runways.
it would help airlines offset their carbon emissions from the  Avtur  burning long haul aircraft and allow them a bit of virtue signalling.
And of course they would be tad cheaper to run.
Short hop freight traffic would be an ideal proving ground, without putting the RPT customers at risk as guinea pigs.
Scalability would be an issue,  the ES-19 has four engines of 400 KW each, the equivalent of around 9  base model tesla model 3.
I can find no information on aviation websites as to the battery capacity of the ES 19 , but I can imagine it would be huge, and the weight significant.
Not to mention the size of the charging cable!
Of course all this is based on Vapourware, the aircraft has not even had a test flight yet.
I guess its a bit like the Tesla Cyber truck.
Mick


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## JohnDe (20 June 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I would not be so sure of that.
> six years ago I flew an all electric two seater  aircraft after the US  Oshkosh air show.
> The checklist is significantly smaller than a conventional piston engined plane, no engine runups to warm up oil etc, no cycling props, no mixture controls..
> Just press the go button and the acceleration was more than surprising.
> ...




Yes, for small single engine aircraft there is a nearby future. 

However, for commercial passenger & goods aircraft there is an issue with the size & weight of the battery pack required.  The battery is prohibitive to profit, especially for long haul transport.


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## mullokintyre (20 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes, for small single engine aircraft there is a nearby future.
> 
> However, for commercial passenger & goods aircraft there is an issue with the size & weight of the battery pack required.  The battery is prohibitive to profit, especially for long haul transport.



Yeah , but as the article said, they are targetting the short haul regional  hop, where you spend a lot of energy getting to the flight levels and immediately have to start your descent.
These aircraft can fly efficiently at lower levels almost  as well as flight levels.
Mick


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## qldfrog (20 June 2022)

For info
I visited the EV expo yesterday in Noosa.
Interesting, still believing not a financially sensible choice but technology was interesting.i liked the EV scooters and motorbikes.
Some beauties there at an affordable cost.
Was able to see first hand a polestar.
beautiful, and personally prefer to Tesla.
if i had to buy an EV today, i would go BYD but that is personal choice.
After talking to the owner of an Hyundai EV, he mentioned an interesting point which would be valid for MG ev as well.
If you buy an EV version of an ICE, a lot of parts..headlights etc are shared and changing these after an accident  is not an expensive issue, whereas a new headlight for a Tesla is an expensive drama.
Otherwise, some of the price tags and waiting list time bringing tears to my eyes...


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## sptrawler (20 June 2022)

@JohnDe and @mullokintyre do yourselves a favour and see the latest Top Gun movie in the cinema, Im not a big movie fan, but if you are into planes, it is un bloodi believable.


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## JohnDe (20 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @JohnDe and @mullokintyre do yourselves a favour and see the latest Top Gun movie in the cinema, Im not a big movie fan, but if you are into planes, it is un bloodi believable.




I watched it last weekend, very impressive.


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## Telamelo (20 June 2022)

Just heard that in Norway effective from 2025 people there will only be able to buy & drive an EV & nothing else.


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## sptrawler (20 June 2022)

Telamelo said:


> Just heard that in Norway effective from 2025 people there will only be able to buy & drive an EV & nothing else.



Well I was there three years ago, it is an interesting place, it was more expensive to buy something with cash, than a credit card, so obviously they have a different set of parameters than most other countries.
I'm going back there next year, so I will let you know how it is progressing.


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## qldfrog (21 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well I was there three years ago, it is an interesting place, it was more expensive to buy something with cash, than a credit card, so obviously they have a different set of parameters than most other countries.
> I'm going back there next year, so I will let you know how it is progressing.



A Reset model🙁


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## qldfrog (21 June 2022)

Telamelo said:


> Just heard that in Norway effective from 2025 people there will only be able to buy & drive an EV & nothing else.



Norway has power(hydro and oil), a strong currency, it might be possible to some workers to afford EV..and that makes sense as they can charge them overnight on hydro power available....
Not exactly our case....🥴
And i forgot to mention the size of the country😂😂


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## qldfrog (21 June 2022)

ps: the engineer view best place for EV are small islands: Vanuatu Fidji Norfolk's..small size,fully dependent on oil imports, no repair shops but able to put wind and solar power.ideal..except for road surface and purchasing power.there is a market for an EV Jeep and 200km range at a decent price


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## JohnDe (21 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Well I was there three years ago, it is an interesting place, it was more expensive to buy something with cash, than a credit card, so obviously they have a different set of parameters than most other countries.
> I'm going back there next year, so I will let you know how it is progressing.




It seems that Norway are still having EV growing pains, which may be resolved by the time you get there.

_"My story may sound a little grim, especially when one compares it to the seamless interoperable experience at any Tesla Supercharger in the world. Fortunately, there is hope for non-Tesla drivers in the form of ISO 15118, otherwise known as Plug and Charge, and it was much discussed at EVS35."_​


> *Plug and Charge, the best medicine for EV charging headaches — in Norway and North America*
> 
> EV Society’s Stephen Bieda took a spin around Norway in a rental EV while at EVS35. Turns out even the world’s leading country in EV adoption struggles with a fragmented public charging network, Bieda tells Electric Autonomy Canada
> Norway is widely known as the global epicentre of electric vehicles and for good reason.
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (21 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @JohnDe and @mullokintyre do yourselves a favour and see the latest Top Gun movie in the cinema, Im not a big movie fan, but if you are into planes, it is un bloodi believable.



I never saw the original, so unlikely to see the latest one.
Stopped watching TV and movies years ago because I hate violence of any sort, real, staged or CGI.
Last film I saw was when I took kids to see Toy story 1.
Can see all the real flying skill I want flying formation with other pilots.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (21 June 2022)

I don't know what all the other "progressive" states are doing, but Victoria has introduced an EV tax.
From RACV 



> The Victorian government’s road user charge for zero and low-emissions vehicles (ZLEV) was passed by parliament late last month. That means from July 1 this year, any Victorian who owns a ZLEV will be charged a fee to use the road. Here are 10 things you need to know about road user charging and what the new laws mean for Victorian owners of electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles.
> 
> All motorists that drive petrol and diesel-powered cars – also known as internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles – pay the fuel excise, which is about 42 cents per litre. Much of the revenue the government collects from the fuel excise is used to pay for new roads, road maintenance and infrastructure.
> Given EVs are battery powered and don’t require fuel, EV owners don’t pay the fuel excise. The government says it introduced the road user charge as a way for EV owners to pay their fair share for road maintenance and infrastructure.
> ...



Its a bit rich for the state government to complain about missing out on a tax that they don't even collect, seeing as the excise is a federal one.
I guess then at least the road tax on EV's will be signifcantly lower than the Excise on diesel, petrol or  gas.


> What will the road user charge revenue be used for?
> The Victorian government says the money raised from the charge will be used to help fund a $100 million package of policies and programs designed to encourage the uptake of ZLEVs.
> The proposed package includes funds for subsidies for purchasing an electric vehicle, increasing electric vehicle charging infrastructure across the state, an electric public bus trial, a study looking at EV readiness of new buildings, and more.



Yeah right. It will go into consolidated revenue and we will still be left with **** roads and the state government  bleating about not getting their fair share of federal funding for major roads programs. And of course, as RV's get more and more numerous, the amount goes up, the requirements for studies   will be gone, so the coffers will get filled.


> How do you pay the road user charge?
> The charge will be payable through Vicroads. ZLEV owners will need to provide Vicroads with their odometer readings to determine the charge, and it will be payable quarterly, half-yearly or annually. Vicroads says it will contact owners with more information on how to report odometer readings and the billing and payment process.



And who is going to check these readings?
Will we have Vicpol pulling over cars and checking the readings of the odometer?



> According to the Department of Transport, motorists driving a ZLEV that is registered in Victoria are required to pay the road user charge for all kilometres travelled within Victoria and interstate.
> 
> There will be no road user charges for travel off-road (such as on private property farm tracks), but drivers must provide evidence of off-road use.




They don't say what level of proof is required. Especially for some ag vehicles that have an hour meter rather than an odometer.
I can see border residents registering their EV's in  cross border jurisdictions to evade it.
Mick


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## sptrawler (23 June 2022)

It looks as though the battery supply issue is starting to bite.








						Musk says Tesla's new car factories 'losing billions of dollars'
					

Tesla's new car factories in Texas and Berlin are "losing billions of dollars" as they struggle to increase production because of a shortage of batteries and China port issues, CEO Elon Musk said.




					www.reuters.com
				



From the article:
SAN FRANCISCO, June 22 (Reuters) - Tesla Inc's (TSLA.O) new car factories in Texas and Berlin are "losing billions of dollars" as they struggle to increase production because of a shortage of batteries and China port issues, Chief Executive Elon Musk said in an interview published on Wednesday.

"Both Berlin and Austin factories are gigantic money furnaces right now. Okay? It's really like a giant roaring sound, which is the sound of money on fire," Musk said in an interview with Tesla Owners of Silicon Valley, an official Tesla-recognized club, in Austin, Texas, on May 31.
Musk said Tesla's Texas factory produces a "tiny" number of cars because of challenges in boosting production of its new "4680" batteries and as tools to make its conventional 2170 batteries are "stuck in port in China." read more "This is all going to get fixed real fast, but it requires a lot of attention," he said.
He said its Berlin factory is in a "slightly better position" because it started with using the traditional 2170 batteries for cars built there.
He said the COVID-19-related shutdowns in Shanghai "were very, very difficult." The shutdown affected car production not only at Tesla's Shanghai factory, but also at its California plant, which uses some vehicle parts made in China, he said. read more

Tesla plans to suspend most production at its Shanghai plant in the first two weeks of July to work on an upgrade of the site to boost output, according to an internal memo seen by Reuters.


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## JohnDe (23 June 2022)

BYD ATO 3 still doesn't have approval for the ANCAP 5 star crash rating. Sounds like a good reason for customers to ask for a discount.

_While the vehicle is expected to pass routine regulatory safety requirements before it can go on sale locally, it is yet to be assessed by the independent safety authority ANCAP (Australasian New Car Assessment Program), which sets a higher safety bar._​​_Representatives for BYD in Australia say the BYD Atto 3 will launch locally with a five-star safety score._​​_However, it may initially go on sale "un-rated" until ANCAP completes a series of crash tests and collision-avoidance assessments._​​_Some car companies complete ANCAP crash tests before a newly introduced vehicle arrives in local showrooms, so they can advertise a five-star score from day one._​​_And some car companies wait several months after a newly-introduced car has gone on sale locally – due to production or development delays – before a vehicle is submitted to ANCAP tests and issued with a star rating._​​







						BYD Atto 3 yet to be crash-tested despite five-star safety claim
					

The next Chinese car brand to launch in Australia says it will arrive this year with a new model and the promise of a five-star safety rating. However,




					www.drive.com.au


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## wayneL (24 June 2022)




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## Value Collector (24 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> View attachment 143234



Shows the versatility of Ev’s doesn’t it, much better than a standard ICE vehicle, because that Tesla can run on both Diesel, Unleaded and also coal, crude oil, natural gas, solar, Wind, Hydro, Nuclear, Bio mass, Land fill methane and many others. 😄

Such flexibility in fuel source is going to be increasingly attractive. As we speak we have a beautiful sunny day in Qld and my car is charging directly from my solar panels replacing the 35% of my battery a used last night 😊 energy independence has long been a dream for people, and It’s finally possible, in fact even though I am charging my car and doing a load of washing, I am still exporting electricity to the grid and earning some tax free $$$.


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## wayneL (24 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Shows the versatility of Ev’s doesn’t it, much better than a standard ICE vehicle, because that Tesla can run on both Diesel, Unleaded and also coal, crude oil, natural gas, solar, Wind, Hydro, Nuclear, Bio mass, Land fill methane and many others. 😄
> 
> Such flexibility in fuel source is going to be increasingly attractive. As we speak we have a beautiful sunny day in Qld and my car is charging directly from my solar panels replacing the 35% of my battery a used last night 😊 energy independence has long been a dream for people, and It’s finally possible, in fact even though I am charging my car and doing a load of washing, I am still exporting electricity to the grid and earning some tax free $$$.



Can't argue that one 

The vid I put up in the energy thread talks a bit about that


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## qldfrog (25 June 2022)

wayneL said:


> Can't argue that one
> 
> The vid I put up in the energy thread talks a bit about that



As i get more technically involved in the EV area, i can not help seing the analogy between EV and Europe energy crisis.
If China takes over Taiwan, Tesla goes bankrupt, EV from Europe have no batteries,and my MG or BYD EV order will be blocked by our governments
How to shoot oneself in the foot.and fxxk oneself all in one go..
Replacing oil dependence by Chinese interest..what can go wrong..do you prefer "persuading" BJ or Venezuela/Koweït 😂


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## bk1 (25 June 2022)

I see a future for electric....
Now we are talking.
We shall see in 2024, allegedly....


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## JohnDe (25 June 2022)

bk1 said:


> I see a future for electric....
> Now we are talking.
> We shall see in 2024, allegedly....




Agreed, unless someone comes up with a non-polluting petrol/diesels alternative that is dirt cheap to produce, sell, and can distribute huge quantities across the globe in less than 5 years. I strongly doubt that any such fuel is coming.

 The headline grabbers will learn that soon enough, read more than one article before jumping.



> Musk said supply chain disruptions have been interfering with the company's ability to ramp production up at the two new facilities. But while that interview was just released Wednesday, the comments were made several weeks ago. Tesla hasn't changed its guidance target for producing 1.5 million vehicles this year, and investors looking past the headlines probably helped the stock bounce back from its initial drop on Thursday.


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## sptrawler (26 June 2022)

The EV charging trials, that have been going on over the last year or two, are starting to get useful data.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06...ic-car-increase-demand-origin-arena/101156686
From the article:
Electric cars could increase demand on the power grid during the evening peak by at least 30 per cent unless households adopt smart charging, a new trial shows.
"At the moment our electricity grid is not coping at all," she said.

"If we were to add another 30 per cent of peak load to the grid during those periods of high prices and constraints on the network, this would require significant investment to increase capacity."

To manage the looming threat, Origin and ARENA have been trialling "smart charging", with results published yesterday.

Smart chargers, costing between $2,000 and $3,000, were installed in homes of 150 EV users and baseline data was captured.
It found that without intervention, 30 per cent of charging was done in the evening peak, between 3pm and 9pm.
Trial one saw participants given a 10-cent-per-kilowatt-hour credit on their electricity bill for charging off-peak.

That reward reduced charging in the evening peak to 10 per cent, or a 67 per cent decrease from the baseline.

Trial two saw Origin take the reins of charging times to limit it to mostly off-peak through a "plug-in and forget" method.

They could even nimbly respond to "critical peak events", as seen early last week, to switch off any charging.

This method reduced the evening peak usage to only 6 per cent, or an 80 per cent decrease from the baseline.
Despite the incentives leading to significant behavioural change, EV drivers still charged in the evening peak between 6 and 10 per cent of the time.

"If that 6 per cent is all located in one network patch, then that will have a magnified impact on that local substation or the local connection," Mrs Le said.
Mrs Le said the third part of the trial, which is ongoing, would see Origin work with power distributors (Citipower, Powercor and United Energy) to understand if the grid would need to be upgraded to meet the baseline usage seen in the trials, once mass adoption of EVs takes place.
Mrs Le pointed to research that showed that if EVs made up 80 per cent of new car sales by 2030, and all were plugged in the evening peak, the instantaneous load would double peak electricity demand.
The final paper of the trials is due in December, but Mrs Le said early results demonstrated that financial rewards worked to get drivers to charge off-peak.


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## qldfrog (27 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The EV charging trials, that have been going on over the last year or two, are starting to get useful data.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06...ic-car-increase-demand-origin-arena/101156686
> From the article:
> ...



And obviously,if you need to go for a long trip tomorrow morning,you can not wait past the peak to charge and need that 7h full charge...more or less the standard full charge from empty .
So it should not be acceptable to be forced off without overriding option.


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## sptrawler (27 June 2022)

qldfrog said:


> And obviously,if you need to go for a long trip tomorrow morning,you can not wait past the peak to charge and need that 7h full charge...more or less the standard full charge from empty .
> So it should not be acceptable to be forced off without overriding option.



What may happen to cover that scenario, may be you will have to go to a paid charge point e.g a fuel station that has E.V charging. They may be required to have generator backup, there is one thing for sure, certain areas will face the issue, as weaknesses in the LV(low voltage) distribution system are highlighted by the increased demand.
They wont all be able to be sorted at once, so a stop gap fix will be required, it will all depend on how fast the uptake of EV's is and how concentrated the uptake is.
These issues are what a lot of people don't understand, not only are we trying to replace the power stations at the front end of the H.V(high voltage) system, we are also changing the demand and strain on the LV side of the system, the issues can't be fixed with a magic wand.
IMO it will take a lot of manhours and money before this is bedded down.


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## qldfrog (27 June 2022)

Byd atto 2/dolphin


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## JohnDe (27 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The EV charging trials, that have been going on over the last year or two, are starting to get useful data.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06...ic-car-increase-demand-origin-arena/101156686
> From the article:
> ...




I almost signed up for one of those trials, it was through AGL. They offered me a free EV charging system and free installation, but my solar feed-in tariff rate would have dropped to $0.05. I wasn't happy with that, since I have one of the highest because I was an early adopter. 

The free system was a nice incentive but having the Tesla charge overnight with the supplied adapter has not been a problem. Yes it takes longer than the system that they would have supplied, however, that is not a problem because I plug in 3 or 4 times a week. 

Charging an EV using the home 10A plug is similar to having a fridge or freezer on. Whereas a fast charger is similar to a large ducted reverse cycle air conditioner.

I set up the Tesla to charge between about 10pm to 6 am.

My next purchase will be the Tesla home battery system. It is independent of the grid, so no black outs, charges from the solar and tops up from the grid if required and off peak, if things get dire it can use the power from the EV. I'm looking forward to when supply catches up to demand.


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## Value Collector (27 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The EV charging trials, that have been going on over the last year or two, are starting to get useful data.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06...ic-car-increase-demand-origin-arena/101156686
> From the article:
> ...



Smart chargers are obviously a great idea, however I think even just communicating with EV owners and asking them to set their cars to charge at midnight would be a good start.

In the 3 years I have owned my car the power company has never contacted me or send an communication at all informing me about the need to charge my car during lower demand times, So the majority of Ev owners probably don’t even know it’s a problem.

Of course I understand it due to my own research and discussions here, but the average Joe wouldn’t.

Also, smart chargers controlled by the power company are going to be a great asset allowing the power company to time charging with periods of rock bottom power pricing, so I think it shouldn’t be 100% the cost of the ev owner, either the chargers should be subsidised by the power company, or the low rates past along to those people that invest in smart chargers.


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## Value Collector (27 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I almost signed up for one of those trials, it was through AGL. They offered me a free EV charging system and free installation, but my solar feed-in tariff rate would have dropped to $0.05. I wasn't happy with that, since I have one of the highest because I was an early adopter.
> 
> The free system was a nice incentive but having the Tesla charge overnight with the supplied adapter has not been a problem. Yes it takes longer than the system that they would have supplied, however, that is not a problem because I plug in 3 or 4 times a week.
> 
> ...



The 10amp charger is more like running a heater or boiling a kettle than it is running a fridge.

It pulls about 2000 watts/H where as a fridge uses about, 50watts so charging the Tesla is like running 40 fridges.


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## Value Collector (27 June 2022)

Here is a graph of my personal solar production and usage, Blue is solar production and orange my electricity usage.

I was away when this was happening but you can see very little demand all day because it was just my fridge and other minor things on, but you can see two big spikes in usage first is the car charging at 9am, and second in the hot water system switching on at 11am.

The reason I have my car and hot water set up to charge  during the day is to make the most of my solar, my production exports are limited to 5kW/h, so if I am not using anything during the day my production is idled back to 5kW/h, you can see the flat spot in the graph once the hot water system stops, (dark blue Is exports, light blue is production I used myself)


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## sptrawler (27 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> My next purchase will be the Tesla home battery system. It is independent of the grid, so no black outs, charges from the solar and tops up from the grid if required and off peak, if things get dire it can use the power from the EV. I'm looking forward to when supply catches up to demand.



Do a bit of checking up on that, when you install a home battery, from memory you lose your feed in tariff.
Well that is the case in W.A.


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## Value Collector (27 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Do a bit of checking up on that, when you install a home battery, from memory you lose your feed in tariff.
> Well that is the case in W.A.



That’s definitely not the case over here in QLD the feed in tariff remains the same when you have a battery, AGL even had a deal at one time that as long as you signed over control of the battery to them, they would make your feed in rate the same as your buy rate, so essentially by buying a battery you got unlimited storage, because your buy and sell was both 25cents per kilowatt.


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## JohnDe (27 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The 10amp charger is more like running a heater or boiling a kettle than it is running a fridge.
> 
> It pulls about 2000 watts/H where as a fridge uses about, 50watts so charging the Tesla is like running 40 fridges.




Not quite. With my personal example, I don't use the full 10A unless I'm preparing for a long drive the next day, I set the Tesla charge to 6A each charging night.


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## JohnDe (27 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Do a bit of checking up on that, when you install a home battery, from memory you lose your feed in tariff.
> Well that is the case in W.A.




I have asked my suppliers and they said only if I mess with the panels, but I will confirm again when the day comes.


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## Value Collector (27 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Not quite. With my personal example, I don't use the full 10A unless I'm preparing for a long drive the next day, I set the Tesla charge to 6A each charging night.



Mine is set to 7A, and as you can see in the graph it’s pulling a lot more than a fridge.

But if you are pulling 6A that’s still 1,400 watts per hour, so in 1 hour you are using more than your fridge would use in a day.

Here is a live chart from today,



You can see the fridge is pulling next to nothing all night, where as my car and heater pull a lot.

Not here to argue, just pointing out that if comparing different appliances, the car will be much closer to a heater than a fridge, and about half the power of a hot water system .


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## JohnDe (27 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Mine is set to 7A, and as you can see in the graph it’s pulling a lot more than a fridge.
> 
> But if you are pulling 6A that’s still 1,400 watts per hour, so in 1 hour you are using more than your fridge would use in a day.
> 
> ...




Don't be so pedantic, I agree with you. I was just making general remarks about different charging devices. Like the AGL & Origin home charging stations that charge at 16A or 32A, compared to my general 6A charging.

I'm confident that the way that I charge my Tesla is less stressful on the grid.



> *EV home charging: What are the options?*
> 
> Dedicated chargers are generally capable of faster, more consistent charging speeds than their portable equivalents, and similarly come with various ratings designed to accommodate both single and three-phase AC power outlets. Single-phase (240V) options typically include models rated to 3.6kW (16A) or 7.2kW (32A), while three-phase (415V) offerings are rated to 11kW (16A) or a faster 22kW (32A).














						Power consumption and energy usage of electric kettle
					

Calculate the energy usage of electric kettle here. The power consumption of electric kettle is 1500 watts.



					www.electricalclassroom.com


----------



## Value Collector (27 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Don't be so pedantic. I was just making general remarks about different charging devices. Like the AGL & Origin home charging stations that charge at 16A or 32A, compared to my general 6A charging.
> 
> I'm confident that the way that I charge my Tesla is less stressful on the grid.



I am just giving you the info, because if you use that example with an EV hater that knows a bit about different appliances then they will call your whole argument BS. Not trying to be pedantic just pointing out your comparison to a fridge is off by about 40 fold.

As for your charging being less stressful on the grid as long as you are charging after 11pm or during the middle of the day your charging will be very beneficial to the grid, definitely try and avoid charging between 4pm and 9pm each day.


----------



## sptrawler (27 June 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am just giving you the info, because if you use that example with an EV hater that knows a bit about different appliances then they will call your whole argument BS. Not trying to be pedantic just pointing out your comparison to a fridge is off by about 40 fold.



Spot on a fridge cycles on the thermostat, the E.V is a constant drain, same as an element heated HWS.




Value Collector said:


> As for your charging being less stressful on the, as long as you are charging after 11pm or during the middle of the day your charging will be very beneficial to the grid, definitely try and avoid charging between 4pm and 9pm each day.



Also a bad time for the grid is early morning when everyone gets up to go to work and businesses that close overnight start winding up 5.30am-9am.
The low period overnight, is as you say 11pm to about 6am.


----------



## Value Collector (27 June 2022)

So this is the demand chart from Victoria, it’s a similar story in all states.

You can see demand spikes between 3pm and 9pm, this is a Terrible time to charge, it’s the time when electricity demand is the highest and any extra demand will put pressure on the grid and cause over all rates to rise.

But you can see demand crashes after 10pm until about 6am in the morning, this is a great time to charge, more usage during this time helps support the grid, and can lower the over all costs by increasing utilisation rates, and providing more demand to wind turbines etc that produce through Those times.


----------



## JohnDe (27 June 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I set up the Tesla to charge between about 10pm to 6 am.




Pretty much what I said a while back


----------



## Value Collector (27 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Also a bad time for the grid is early morning when everyone gets up to go to work and businesses that close overnight start winding up 5.30am-9am.
> The low period overnight, is as you say 11pm to about 6am.




Yep, mornings differ a bit depending on state, for example the morning peak here in Queensland is normally much smaller than the night peak, and solar production quickly causes the morning peak to disappear from about 7.30am onwards on sunny days and causes a big low point in the middle of day compared to other states.

This website is filled will a lot of great info, I use all the time, particularly as I am tracking demand and supply as part of my constant attempt to understand the future of APA, which so far looks great as their gas is used during the transition to renewables.






						NEM data dashboard
					

The NEM's key data points including price and demand, dispatch, and short and medium-term outlooks.




					aemo.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (28 June 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @JohnDe and @mullokintyre do yourselves a favour and see the latest Top Gun movie in the cinema, Im not a big movie fan, but if you are into planes, it is un bloodi believable.



I think I prefer this version .


----------



## SirRumpole (28 June 2022)

Fast charging battery developments.


----------



## JohnDe (29 June 2022)

Ford are fighting back, ensuring that they have a Lithium supply.



> *Liontown $545m WA go-ahead on Ford deal*
> 
> Liontown has locked its final and third offtake deal with auto giant Ford, which will also partially help it fund the development of its Kathleen Valley lithium project in WA.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (30 June 2022)

At last @JohnDe ,the penny is starting to drop with the reporters, all of a sudden they want the money spent on infrastructure rather than incentives.
I wish they had thought of that, before they started screaming for incentives, in the first place.









						Opinion: Pull the plug on electric-car tax breaks, rebates, and other cash incentives
					

Demand for electric vehicles in Australia is off the charts and waiting lists of 12 months to two years are now the norm. So why on earth do we need taxpayer money to incentivise vehicles that money can’t buy?




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Governments should switch from providing generous tax incentives to buyers of electric cars – who clearly can afford such an expensive vehicle anyway – and instead put that money towards infrastructure which could eventually benefit everyone.


----------



## qldfrog (1 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> At last @JohnDe ,the penny is starting to drop with the reporters, all of a sudden they want the money spent on infrastructure rather than incentives.
> I wish they had thought of that, before they started screaming for incentives, in the first place.
> 
> 
> ...



Devils advocate:
Infrastructure should not mean charger but readying grid..
Why should we as taxpayer fund chargers which benefit long distance idle travelers and not workers.
No worker is or should be stopping for one hour for a reload in the middle of nowhere charger.
Tax payer charging stations are like giving subsidies for holiday resort or RV purchases.
Think about ANY advantage in term of productivity? Or community wide returns..so in a non twisted way, these charger are encouraging idle useless travel.
Readying the grid is a different business and less technology picking.
We might get ultrafast charging or swap based in 5y and all these charging stations might become obsolete.the need for grid will remain


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## mullokintyre (2 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Devils advocate:
> Infrastructure should not mean charger but readying grid..
> Why should we as taxpayer fund chargers which benefit long distance idle travelers and not workers.
> No worker is or should be stopping for one hour for a reload in the middle of nowhere charger.
> ...



The two issues need to be running in parralel.
would be foolish to put all the incentives in only one area.
Not point in putting in heaps of  chargers if network or local supply cant run them.
Mick


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## JohnDe (2 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The two issues need to be running in parralel.
> would be foolish to put all the incentives in only one area.
> Not point in putting in heaps of  chargers if network or local supply cant run them.
> Mick




What is the criteria for supply?


----------



## Dona Ferentes (2 July 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> A mate of mine who used drive taxis says that the Prius is the best for people living in the Regions.
> 
> The ICE gets it up n running and then the EV component takes over.



But the demagogues are spoiling that party

" _EU countries this week okayed proposed laws to combat climate change including one requiring new cars sold in the EU to emit zero CO2 (carbon dioxide) from 2035....
 ..... It could be carmakers like Toyota, Nissan and Samsung that struggle to meet the target because of their continuing belief in hybrid technology for EVs, rather than battery-powered EVs alone._...."









						EU Keen to Drive ICE Vehicles off the Road – ShareCafe
					

EU countries this week okayed proposed laws to combat climate change including one requiring new cars to emit zero CO2 from 2035, making it impossible to sell internal-combustion engine cars from that date.




					www.sharecafe.com.au


----------



## Dona Ferentes (2 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> do yourselves a favour and see the latest Top Gun movie in the cinema, Im not a big movie fan, but if you are into planes, it is un bloodi believable.



I believe there's a bit of Product Placement for _Viagra _in the movie, which I suppose is appropriate as the theme is all about "soft power projection".


----------



## sptrawler (2 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Devils advocate:
> Infrastructure should not mean charger but readying grid..
> Why should we as taxpayer fund chargers which benefit long distance idle travelers and not workers.
> No worker is or should be stopping for one hour for a reload in the middle of nowhere charger.
> ...



Why should the W.A taxpayer, pay for the Eastern States grid upgrade, when we have our own seperate grid and have to pay for that to be upgraded on our own?
Oh sorry I forgot W.A  the N.T doesnt exist. Lol
The States should be responsible for their own decisions, the Feds are funding a lot of the Eastern States grid upgrades, with all Australians taxes.


----------



## sptrawler (2 July 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> I believe there's a bit of Product Placement for _Viagra _in the movie, which I suppose is appropriate as the theme is all about "soft power projection".



I didnt go that deep, just thought the cinematography was excellent, I never go to the movies for deep and meaningful enlightenment, or looking for subliminal messages, just looking for light entertainment.


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## qldfrog (3 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Why should the W.A taxpayer, pay for the Eastern States grid upgrade, when we have our own seperate grid and have to pay for that to be upgraded on our own?
> Oh sorry I forgot W.A  the N.T doesnt exist. Lol
> The States should be responsible for their own decisions, the Feds are funding a lot of the Eastern States grid upgrades, with all Australians taxes.



You seem to have been under lockdown for too long in the west:😊 the key message in the post is that subsidies to charger at the time is a subsidy to idle people not the active part economically.
Most of cars are used to commute and do daily relatively short runs to the school,shop, GP, sports or activities. Even social going out.
These trips require home charging flexibility, not on the road chargers.
If subsidies have to go for chargers, in term of societal benefits. (As we are sold the BS of save the planet with EVs...), Then home chargers should be it, not chargers in the middle of nowhere.
BTW, i was in for a bit of a shock when checking the cost of a home charger..nearly $2k all in,just to be able to charge your EV overnight at more than a trickle 
Another 1 tonne of free fuel to break even in the ICE vs EV challenge...


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## sptrawler (3 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> You seem to have been under lockdown for too long in the west:😊 the key message in the post is that subsidies to charger at the time is a subsidy to idle people not the active part economically.
> Most of cars are used to commute and do daily relatively short runs to the school,shop, GP, sports or activities. Even social going out.
> These trips require home charging flexibility, not on the road chargers.
> If subsidies have to go for chargers, in term of societal benefits. (As we are sold the BS of save the planet with EVs...), Then home chargers should be it, not chargers in the middle of nowhere.
> ...



Yes I was only joking frog, before the resources boom, W.A was a drain on the national tax purse and I'm sure we will be again at some later date.
With E.V charging it sounds as though the private sector are stepping up over East, I hope the W.A retailers and service providers follow suit.









						Hundreds of new free electric car chargers coming to NSW
					

Power company Endeavour Energy has partnered with charging network Jolt to install 230 free electric car charging points along NSW's roadsides by 2025.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Macquack (3 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I was only joking frog, before the resources boom, W.A was a drain on the national tax purse and I'm sure we will be again at some later date.
> With E.V charging it sounds as though the private sector are stepping up over East, I hope the W.A retailers and service providers follow suit.
> 
> 
> ...



I don't understand why these EV chargers need to be free. I know it is only 7 kW per day, but won't that create massive queues of free loaders at the "expense" of drivers that are prepared to pay the normal going rate.


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## mullokintyre (3 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> What is the criteria for supply?



Sorry not sure what you are asking me here?
I was suggesting that while an area may have sufficient capicity in terms of transmission, the localsupply may not be sufficient to provide.
mick


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## JohnDe (3 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Sorry not sure what you are asking me here?
> I was suggesting that while an area may have sufficient capicity in terms of transmission, the localsupply may not be sufficient to provide.
> mick





> mullokintyre said:
> The two issues need to be running in parralel.
> would be foolish to put all the incentives in only one area.
> No point in putting in heaps of chargers if network or local supply cant run them.
> Mick






> JohnDe said:
> What is the criteria for supply?




I was asking what the criteria would be in regards to the number of EV chargers and the available electricity supply from the grid.

Why do you think there will be a problem?

The installation of EV chargers is no different to the what the electricity supply industry went through the late 80's early 90's during the boom in home reverse cycle A/C. Increased demand equals increased profits as well as supply problems, and new ideas to solve and overcome adversity.

Overseas experience has shown that suppliers can catch up with demand.

_"Fact: If 80% of all passenger cars become electric, this would lead to a total increase of 10-15% in electricity consumption."_​​_So far, the market entry of EVs has been very predictable and the electric grid is constantly being developed in parallel. Current EV market trends show low to moderate energy uptake rates."_​​_At the same time, electric vehicles are 5 to 6 times more energy-efficient than the best internal combustion engines (ICE) vehicle. In passenger cars, EVs consume 25% the amount of energy in comparison to ICE vehicles. E-trucks consume about 50% of their diesel equivalents’ own energy consumption. "_​


> *Myth buster: Electric vehicles will overload the power grid*
> 
> Will a mass transition to electric vehicles (EVs) cause the electric power grid to collapse? Some argue that EVs will make the grid unstable, which could mean hefty investments to upgrade existing infrastructures in order to withstand the electricity uptake.
> *VEHICLE ELECTRIFICATION*​As the EU aims to ban the sale of fossil-fuel vehicles by 2030, this means new car buyers will have three options: plug-in hybrids (PHEVs), battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) or hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. Globally, more than four million PHEVs and BEVs have been sold so far – and that is predicted to increase to 125 million by 2030.
> ...


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## mullokintyre (3 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I was asking what the criteria would be in regards to the number of EV chargers and the available electricity supply from the grid.
> 
> Why do you think there will be a problem?
> 
> ...



The problem is always scalbility.
When AC units threatened supply, the level that each unit needed was only ten amps or so.
Fast charging EV stations need amps by a factor of ten.
it will not be a consistent  problem but there will be pockets both geographically and temporal when it will. It does not have to be so as long as the planning for it is done with engineering and physics limitations in mind.
but it will likely be run by accountants and politicians, hence my reservations.
The article you quoted highlights the problems.
1. it talks about European conditions which is significantly different to a large sparsely populated continent like ours.
2.it talks about averages, but we have already seen, we rarely have an average day. Its the peaks that will get you every time.
mick


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## JohnDe (3 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The problem is always scalbility.
> When AC units threatened supply, the level that each unit needed was only ten amps or so.
> Fast charging EV stations need amps by a factor of ten.
> it will not be a consistent  problem but there will be pockets both geographically and temporal when it will. It does not have to be so as long as the planning for it is done with engineering and physics limitations in mind.
> ...




You miss the point "_While the electrification of mobility is definitely accelerating, a massive power-demand crisis due to electric vehicles simply won’t happen overnight. This is an evolution that spans over decades, not a sudden revolution. This gives utility companies plenty of time to plan ahead._" 



> New EV models are now enabling battery discharging, which means that during times of peak demand EVs can put electricity back into the household or grid. This would actually reduce the chance of blackouts by flattening peak demand. The Electric Vehicle Council is already working with grid operators and energy companies to avoid the potential pitfalls of increasing electricity demand and instead harness the benefits of this new technology.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




About 90% of Australia's population live grouped together in coastal areas.


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## basilio (3 July 2022)

CATL , the worlds biggest EV battery supplier, have announced a 3rd Generation battery pack.  It will offer 1000Klm range and a re -charging time from 10- 80% in 10 minutes .  

Some fascinating technology in the improvements. Worth checking out.
CATL also has a range of completely new solid state battery technology in the pipeline.









						Chinese company unveils new electric-car battery with 620+ miles of range — 50% more than Tesla's Model S
					

CATL's next-generation battery, called the Qilin, has a greater energy density than the company's previous packs.




					www.businessinsider.com
				









						CATL launches CTP 3.0 battery “Qilin,” achieves the highest integration level in the world
					

On June 23, CATL launched Qilin, the third generation of its CTP (cell-to-pack) technology. With a record-breaking volume utilization efficiency of 72% and an energy density of up to 255 Wh/kg, it achieves the highest integration level worldwide so far, capable of delivering a range of over...



					www.catl.com


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## 3 hound (3 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Living at home in the city is o.k for a while, but when the missus wants to go away for a weekend and early uptake husband who talked her into the E.V breaks out in a rash and a cold sweat while explaining why they can't is another.
> Worse still if he is sitting in the drivers seat in a queue for 5 hrs waiting for a charge, or worse still a tilt bed truck because there isn't a charger, meanwhile the missus is in the passenger seat and you've lost reception all picture no sound. 🤣



This is horror story, you should have put a warning label it.


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## qldfrog (3 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I was only joking frog, before the resources boom, W.A was a drain on the national tax purse and I'm sure we will be again at some later date.
> With E.V charging it sounds as though the private sector are stepping up over East, I hope the W.A retailers and service providers follow suit.
> 
> 
> ...



Free? Do they sell sandwitches lollies and stuffs .nothing is free?
As long as taxpayer money is not involved, all good


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## 3 hound (3 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Free? Do they sell sandwitches lollies and stuffs .nothing is free?
> As long as taxpayer money is not involved, all good



I hear politicians and environmentalists at the highest level say stuff like wind and solar is free and journalists etc let them get away with it.

Solar is free like gold, diamonds, coal, uranium are all free...every precious metal, commodity and natural material is in fact free....until you want to use it for something.


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## JohnDe (3 July 2022)

3 hound said:


> I hear politicians and environmentalists at the highest level say stuff like wind and solar is free and journalists etc let them get away with it.
> 
> Solar is free like gold, diamonds, coal, uranium are all free...every precious metal, commodity and natural material is in fact free....until you want to use it for something.




Yes, Australia has lots of ‘free’ resources. However, almost all oil for fuel comes from overseas, because we don’t have a lot of it.


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## mullokintyre (3 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> You miss the point "_While the electrification of mobility is definitely accelerating, a massive power-demand crisis due to electric vehicles simply won’t happen overnight. This is an evolution that spans over decades, not a sudden revolution. This gives utility companies plenty of time to plan ahead._"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Missing the point?
the reality is none of this stuff you point out is linear.
Averagesare an artificial construct that very few of us live under.
Those in the outliers don,t give a fig about averages, they see there situation.
 there are pockets of extremely high density population as well as extremely low ones.
there are pockets of extremely low phone coverage as well as pockets of saturation.
I think this discusiion is going nowhere.


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## Value Collector (3 July 2022)

Macquack said:


> I don't understand why these EV chargers need to be free. I know it is only 7 kW per day, but won't that create massive queues of free loaders at the "expense" of drivers that are prepared to pay the normal going rate.



They don’t “Need” to be free, that’s just the businesses model they are attempting to run with, the main income stream will be from the advertising on the side.

If their free version doesn’t work, I would guess it would be super easy to move to a pay to play model.


----------



## Value Collector (3 July 2022)

3 hound said:


> I hear politicians and environmentalists at the highest level say stuff like wind and solar is free and journalists etc let them get away with it.
> 
> Solar is free like gold, diamonds, coal, uranium are all free...every precious metal, commodity and natural material is in fact free....until you want to use it for something.



It’s free in the sense that you don’t have to buy fuel for it,

Eg whether you build a coal power station or a wind farm you have to spend resources to construct it, but the coal power station requires you to spend money buying fuel constantly where as once they are built wind and solar don’t.


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## JohnDe (3 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Missing the point?
> the reality is none of this stuff you point out is linear.
> Averagesare an artificial construct that very few of us live under.
> Those in the outliers don,t give a fig about averages, they see there situation.
> ...




The point is that EV ownership will take a decade before it came close to surpassing ICE vehicles, which means that electricity supply will have no issue from EV’s drawing too much from the grid in the early years, which allows time to improve & increase supply. And this has been proven in other countries with higher EV take up while some of those countries transition to renewables.


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## sptrawler (3 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Missing the point?
> the reality is none of this stuff you point out is linear.
> Averagesare an artificial construct that very few of us live under.
> Those in the outliers don,t give a fig about averages, they see there situation.
> ...






JohnDe said:


> The point is that EV ownership will take a decade before it came close to surpassing ICE vehicles, which means that electricity supply will have no issue from EV’s drawing too much from the grid in the early years, which allows time to improve & increase supply. And this has been proven in other countries with higher EV take up while some of those countries transition to renewables.



IMO the big thing that has to happen is that charging infrastructure is made standard, like phone charging any phone should be able to charge from any Australian compliance outlet e.g GPO's with USB outlets, so that an iphone or an android can charge from that outlet with their charge cable.
The new Govt needs to prioritise a standard outlet ASAP, all chargers should be able to accept all cars, it is a no brainer the last thing we need is a charger war going on it will set back EV's 20 years if they don't.
Australia hasn't got the population density, to support different charging infrastructures.


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## Value Collector (3 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The point is that EV ownership will take a decade before it came close to surpassing ICE vehicles, which means that electricity supply will have no issue from EV’s drawing too much from the grid in the early years, which allows time to improve & increase supply. And this has been proven in other countries with higher EV take up while some of those countries transition to renewables.



Agreed, the oil industry grew out of almost no where from scratch and now their is petrol stations on every corner and a global supply chain network.

With EV’s the aren’t starting from scratch there is already electrical grids pretty much nationwide, augmenting it to charge cars is very simple compared to building out the ICE car fuel system.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> With EV’s the aren’t starting from scratch there is already electrical grids pretty much nationwide, augmenting it to charge cars is very simple compared to building out the ICE car fuel system.



The one difference is that back when petrol stations, oil refineries etc were being built it was a matter of someone buying some land and doing it.

Today there's massively more red tape to get anything built so it's far slower to go from concept to completion.


----------



## JohnDe (4 July 2022)

Watch this type of work increase and new conversion businesses pop up.

_"In the States, electro-modding is already a thriving business, so Tim turned to NetGain in the USA for its off-the-shelf HyPer9 motor and on-board charging and battery management systems."_​


> *Electric-powered 1965 Mk1 Ford Cortina*
> By slinging an electric motor and Tesla battery pack into this 1965 Mk1 Cortina, Tim Harrison has turned an unused project car into a daily driver
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (4 July 2022)

@qldfrog here is a write up on the new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, not here yet, but can't be far away.








						2023 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV review: Pre-production drive
					

Mitsubishi’s pioneering plug-in returns with a bigger battery, more power and more ways to use it. We take a pre-production Outlander plug-in hybrid off road in an exclusive first drive.




					www.whichcar.com.au


----------



## qldfrog (4 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> @qldfrog here is a write up on the new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, not here yet, but can't be far away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice car: like range and regen braking but far too exp for our need as a small car.a decent option for a family car..with kids and city driving


----------



## JohnDe (4 July 2022)

Received an email today - 






​





Acquisition of Chargefox by Australian Motoring Services​
Dear John,
*We are pleased to announce that Australian Motoring Services (AMS) has recently acquired Australia’s largest EV charging network, Chargefox. The new ownership will accelerate the expansion of Chargefox’s state-of-art EV charging network giving more Australian EV drivers better access to world-leading charging technology right across the country. *

Chargefox is the biggest and fastest growing open charging network in Australia for modern EVs. It has been operating charging stations across Australia and New Zealand since late 2017 and has managed more than 500,000 charging sessions for drivers via its iPhone and Android mobile apps.

The acquisition will see Chargefox refocus with renewed support on its ambitious target to have more than 5,000 EV plugs to be made available at stations across the country and 2,000 of those offering fast and/or ultra-rapid charging speeds (allowing you to charge to 80% or more during a coffee break).

Chargefox will continue to operate as Australia’s largest EV charging network after the acquisition, with the broadened support of the AMS. The accelerated rollout of the network has broad-reaching benefits, as it allows for further local and long-distance EV travel, giving more Australian EV drivers better access to world-leading charging technology right across the country.

The partnership also provides an opportunity to accelerate Chargefox’s mission to reduce road transport emissions to zero. To date, Chargefox has powered more than 14 million carbon-free kms and abated more than 4,000 tonnes of CO2 (equivalent to more than 2 million kilos of coal burnt).

The investment sets AMS and Chargefox up for continued success to build out the EV charging infrastructure needed to allow mass adoption of EVs and help create a cleaner backbone for a cleaner future. Chargefox’s multiple partnerships with car manufacturers mean that Australians can confidently purchase an EV backed by the Chargefox network.

As a valued partner, the acquisition is a win for Chargefox users and commercial customers, including car rental and fleet companies. Backed by the AMS, Chargefox’s scale and pace of building will now be supercharged and will be able to deliver more charging solutions to the wider network, quicker.

We’ll share more details and a FAQ document in the coming days. Please direct any queries to info@chargefox.com.
Kind regards,
*Marty Andrews
CEO and Co-Founder
Chargefox
*


----------



## sptrawler (4 July 2022)

Well in W.A the chargefox installations that are not working might get fixed now.


----------



## qldfrog (6 July 2022)

Part of the mix..








						Some solar farm owners say much of the energy they generate gets 'wasted'. But the solution isn't easy
					

The Labor government has a plan to increase the share of renewable energy in the grid to 82 per cent by 2030, but many experts and investors say reaching that will not be possible without a major upgrade of the poles and wires that transport that power around the grid.




					www.abc.net.au
				



Moneu has first to go to the grid idf we want widespread EV take up..
Remember that this is not the plan, the plan is fewer individual cars.


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2022)

Another mindless dribble fest, possibly funded by businesses that want further incentives, to help them reduce their fuel bill.
Reduce the tax a business has to pay for an E.V, take a Hyundai Kona for example, well I ordered one over 4 months ago and I still don't know when it will arrive, so how giving tax incentives to business to extend the queue would help is beyond me.🤪
Good on the Govt helping the little guy.🤣








						The 'silver bullet' that could fix Australia's lagging electric vehicle uptake
					

Australia's EV uptake is lagging behind the rest of the world, but these tax experts have some reforms that they think would rapidly increase sales.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
To illustrate the price gap between EVs and the equivalent ICEVs, the report uses the example of a Hyundai Kona EV, which was $28,900 more expensive than the ICEV version
*With last week's new FBT exemption, that price gap drops to a bit over $20,000. (That's assuming the business has to pay FBT on its work vehicles, which isn't always the case)*.


It's good to see that the everyday Aussie can get a tax reduction on a family car, the coalition helping their mates again? Well one would think it was the coalition, if you followed the narrative.
But no, there is very little being said about it, that's weird isn't it.🤣


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2022)

It looks like the expected Govt incentives are going to be mopped up, by the manufacturers.









						2022 Kia EV6 prices rise by $4600, existing orders not protected
					

The Kia EV6 has been hit with a near-$5000 price hike – and those in the queue will need to accept the price rise, or cancel their order.




					www.drive.com.au
				




Dealers have advised customers their *existing orders will not be price protected* – meaning customers will need to accept the price rise to keep their place in the queue, or cancel their order and have their deposit refunded.


----------



## sptrawler (6 July 2022)

Looks like news is coming thick and fast, BYD taking a breath before maybe giving their bad news, hope the Govt incentives improve, the last lot seem to be getting absorbed a bit like housing stimulus.😉








						2022 BYD Atto 3 deliveries delayed by up to two months
					

Supply chain slowdowns have hit Chinese electric car brand BYD, pushing its hotly-anticipated Atto 3 back to late August or September – but more




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## qldfrog (6 July 2022)

I would recommend some of our members stop reading the ABC which is now more suited to discussion on the sex or non sex of anges than any technical, economic or scientific article.
The sex of the angels was the debate during the fall of Constantinople,while Rome was more concerned about sports if i remember well .. in 2022 people wave Ukrainian or rainbow flags from their Tesla...history repeats 
Was ready an article stating a household with a tesla requires 75kwh capacity out of a 100 max available in domestic connection.
And only 3 at a time out of 25 can be handed by the current grid..unsure if US or Oz...
Anyone can confirm..or not?
Or if the figures are accurate as i found an error in another chapter of that story


----------



## JohnDe (7 July 2022)

> *Australia needs to get smart in charging electric cars*
> 
> In 1900, electric vehicles outsold all other car types in America. Yet three decades later they were gone, a key factor in their demise being the discovery of oil in Texas leading to fuel prices falling dramatically.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (7 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I would recommend some of our members stop reading the ABC which is now more suited to discussion on the sex or non sex of anges than any technical, economic or scientific article.
> The sex of the angels was the debate during the fall of Constantinople,while Rome was more concerned about sports if i remember well .. in 2022 people wave Ukrainian or rainbow flags from their Tesla...history repeats
> Was ready an article stating a household with a tesla requires 75kwh capacity out of a 100 max available in domestic connection.
> And only 3 at a time out of 25 can be handed by the current grid..unsure if US or Oz...
> ...



Most single phase home supplies are 60A, so about 15Kw, if you have 3phase on that is obviously more, the limiting factor will be the distribution transformer, the one that is usually up the top of the pole in one of your nearby streets. 
With the uptake being so slow due to to E.V supply issues, it probably isn't an problem, but if it accelerated and a lot of people in the same area bought E.V's the volt drop would start to show up and the transformer would have to be beefed up in all probability.
The slower the uptake, the easier the integration.


----------



## JohnDe (7 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> With the uptake being so slow due to to E.V supply issues, it probably isn't an problem, but if it accelerated and a lot of people in the same area bought E.V's the volt drop would start to show up and the transformer would have to be beefed up in all probability.
> *The slower the uptake, the easier the integration*.




Exactly. It's a shame that the previous debates were/are about EV rebates rather than infrastructure.

_"What solar panels were to the mid-2000s, electric vehicles will be to the 2020s and beyond. But if they are plugged in unchecked without clear policy leadership they will wreak havoc on the electricity grid._​​_"For our electricity sector, mass adoption of EVs will be a major new load on the system. The average Australian house uses 5000 kilowatt hours of electricity a year. Adding an EV will increase that by about 3500 kilowatt hours – a 70 per cent increase._​​_"That’s a lot more electrons flowing through your meter and, importantly, through the poles and wires running down your street. How much new investment will be required in those poles and wires (and therefore cost to electricity customers) will depend on how smart we are with when we charge our EVs."_​


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## Value Collector (7 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Most single phase home supplies are 60A, so about 15Kw, if you have 3phase on that is obviously more, the limiting factor will be the distribution transformer, the one that is usually up the top of the pole in one of your nearby streets.
> With the uptake being so slow due to to E.V supply issues, it probably isn't an problem, but if it accelerated and a lot of people in the same area bought E.V's the volt drop would start to show up and the transformer would have to be beefed up in all probability.
> The slower the uptake, the easier the integration.



The smart chargers we were talking about the other day could prevent spikes in demand, as could night time charging.

After 12am when the hot water systems that began heating 2 hours earlier have shut off, the average neighbourhood would have huge amounts of spare capacity.


----------



## mullokintyre (7 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The smart chargers we were talking about the other day could prevent spikes in demand, as could night time charging.
> 
> After 12am when the hot water systems that began heating 2 hours earlier have shut off, the average neighbourhood would have huge amounts of spare capacity.



Where would all this spare capacity be coming from?
Obviously there will be no solar , so either lots of wind , battery, hydro, or geothermal(just kiddin).
Otherwise its still burning fossil fuels which defeat the purpose of  the whole exercise.
Mick


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## sptrawler (7 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The smart chargers we were talking about the other day could prevent spikes in demand, as could night time charging.
> 
> After 12am when the hot water systems that began heating 2 hours earlier have shut off, the average neighbourhood would have huge amounts of spare capacity.



That's true, but they wont be cheap, even a basic 7Kw charger is about $1,000. Also the install could be fairly expensive if your car parking is a fair way from your meter box.
It is an interesting topic and it isn't anything that can't be resolved so it will be resolved. When rooftop solar was introduced a lot of the distribution system had to be adjusted to accept the inflow, this wont be any different.


----------



## qldfrog (7 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's true, but they wont be cheap, even a basic 7Kw charger is about $1,000. Also the install could be fairly expensive if your car parking is a fair way from your meter box.
> It is an interesting topic and it isn't anything that can't be resolved so it will be resolved. When rooftop solar was introduced a lot of the distribution system had to be adjusted to accept the inflow, this wont be any different.



When looking at prices for a 7kw charger in the Noosa EV fests, charger cost was more $2k installed.
Was not expecting that...


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## Value Collector (7 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's true, but they wont be cheap, even a basic 7Kw charger is about $1,000. Also the install could be fairly expensive if your car parking is a fair way from your meter box.
> It is an interesting topic and it isn't anything that can't be resolved so it will be resolved. When rooftop solar was introduced a lot of the distribution system had to be adjusted to accept the inflow, this wont be any different.



Most people with Ev’s are paying to install chargers anyway, so a $1000 definitely isn’t a deal breaker, it’s about what they cost.

Also, Tesla chargers already use wifi so I can’t see why it wouldn’t be super easy to make a charger that can be controlled by your energy retailer using your wifi network.

Given that the energy retailer would love the ability to control your charging they may even subsidise the charger or provide you with ultra low super offpeak charging.  

———————————————
If you drive a lot of Km’s then you will need to install a charger anyway, so it may as well be a smart charger, if you don’t drive enough km’s to make installing a charger worth it then you aren’t adding as much demand to the grid anyway.


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## JohnDe (8 July 2022)

Handy software update for the Tesla, downloading now. Other manufacturers are slowly catching up. Now we just need the infrastructure to catch up :-(



> *Automatic Supercharger Rerouting*
> 
> If you're navigating to a Supercharger and it suddenly becomes more congested before you arrive, Tesla will now calculate whether there are any nearby Supercharger that may be less congested.
> 
> If Tesla believes that it can reduce your total travel time by navigating to a less congested charger, it will reroute you to a Supercharger that's less busy.


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## sptrawler (9 July 2022)

The power system is a hugely complex issue, far more complex than E.V's and also far more critical to society. Some of the smartest people in Australia will be working out how to best move forward, it won't be done on a forum.
I don't know the topography of the dam in question, but maybe there is the option of putting in more hydro at a later date and pumping the overflow to their dams.
Who knows but it probably isn't something that can't or won't be engineered out, it isn't problem at the moment because there is at call generation available, by the time the issue is a problem it will be resolved IMO.


----------



## basilio (9 July 2022)

Back to electric cars.  This nifty little cross between a scooter and car looks interesting.












						Sneak Peek of Nimbus, a Three Wheeled Electric Vehicle With a Steering - ROBOfluence
					

It is 2022, and electric vehicles are all the rage around the world. And so is the Nimbus; it is a compact EV that allows...




					robofluence.com


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## JohnDe (10 July 2022)

National Press Club address: Q&A session​29 June 2022

Energy supply, emissions reductions, electric vehicles


*GREG BROWN:* Greg Brown from The Australian. Mr Bowen, Labor's pre election modelling assumes electric vehicles will account for *89% of new car sales by 2030*,  well above the former government's prediction based on their policies on 29%. Now, experts, including the Grattan Institute, say they can't see how this will be achieved based on Labor's already announced policy initiatives which you went through today, noting that free trade deals do make the tariff exemption largely redundant. So what is the assumption behind the massive growth in EV sales under Labor? And will the government need new policies in this space, such as vehicle emission standards, to make the 89% prediction a reality?

*CHRIS BOWEN:* Thanks, Greg. But to be clear, the assumptions in the modelling are just that. T*hey're assumptions*, they're not policy decisions in relation to those figures. So we didn't have a target of meeting, you know, any particular EV rate. So that's not a policy decision, that's what the modellers have worked through. Some of that will be natural increases; others will be as a result of policies. But we're very committed to increasing the penetration of electric vehicles and increasing the penetration of electric vehicles at an affordable rate. And there'll be a lot of flow-through impacts of our policies that we've already implemented - I mean in the process of implementing and have announced.
For example, one example, our commitment to take the Commonwealth fleet to, in the first instance, 75% no emissions: very important. One, because the Commonwealth has a big fleet, 10,000 cars. But, secondly, the Commonwealth turns over its cars every 3 years. That leads into the second-hand market. At the moment you can't buy a second-hand electric car in Australia and, as we all know, if you really want an affordable car it's almost certainly a second-hand car. So if you're in the market, if you're in the place of the market as many young people are, for example, buying their first car, they'd love an EV but you can't get one second hand.
When the Commonwealth fleet starts to roll through and we have the Commonwealth disposing of its electric vehicles in 3 years after they've been purchased, you start to get the second-hand market. Same with private fleets, our FBT discount and our tariff discount has its biggest impact, I'm happy to concede, on fleets. Again, big proportions of car sales in Australia are fleet. But again, they turn over, depending on the company, every two, three or four years. Flow through to second hand.
So there's a lot to do. And, yes, in relation to the second part of your question, we have an electric vehicle strategy which we will now develop in office, as we said we would from Opposition, and we'll consider further policy positions to add to and build on what we've already committed to. 

*GREG BROWN:* So vehicle emissions standards, are they on the table as we move forward?

*CHRIS BOWEN:* We will consider all viable options to build on the policy announcements we have already made and are implementing.


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## qldfrog (11 July 2022)

Ok back to car,so that ICE car or hybrid you just bought,are you really going to save the planet because you ae going to put it in a scrapyard in 5y even some Green rabid PHD in social science must have some doubt..probably not.
Here come e fuel ....
Sure,you will not give extra money to China, will not dig more holes and will still enable the toothless/peon to travel and clog the roads and airports annoying the super-rich but you will be co2 emission (balance) free...if that is part of your belief,and more importantly in my opinion,you will be able to run an economy different from middle age without burning precious diseappearing oil resources.
From their ABC








						Porsche-backed company wants to build Australia's first commercial e-fuel plant in Tasmania
					

Porsche wants 80 per cent of its cars to be electric by the end of the decade, and is developing a synthetic fuel to power those that will still run on liquid fuels. So what are e-fuels and why choose Tasmania as the site to make them?




					www.abc.net.au


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## JohnDe (11 July 2022)

"_Australian battery industry research is set to take a significant step forward_" About time, we have everything here except the commitment. A massive battery manufacturing industry here could set us up for all sorts of manufacturing industries for decades, but it will only work if all involve commit to it 100%, including government. 

I'm not convinced, though I hope.



> *Australian battery manufacturing sector a step closer with FBICRC precursor pilot plant*
> 
> Researchers and industry professionals working under the FBICRC banner will use Australian-produced nickel, cobalt and other materials to refine manufacturing techniques needed to produce cathode precursors at scale.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (12 July 2022)

*'Watts Under the Bonnet' - Is range anxiety an outdated concern?*


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## sptrawler (12 July 2022)

Now this sounds like a nice EV, whether you are a petrol head or not, but you need deep pockets.








						2023 Lucid Air Review, Pricing, and Specs
					

Silicon Valley-based startup Lucid Motors’ 2023 Air luxury EV sedan pairs powerful motors and the world’s longest driving range with upscale styling and fashionable interiors.




					www.caranddriver.com


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## basilio (12 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Now this sounds like a nice EV, whether you are a petrol head or not, but you need deep pockets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Certainly an interesting read. One has to check out the  performance figures for the Lucid air in the story. They are mindblowing..
What did catch my eye on Car and Driver however was this piece. A restoration work that overrides the original manufacturer.              
​This Peugeot 604 Is One Man's Obsessive Restoration​Harjeet Kalsi wasn't afraid to tackle the obscure French luxury car—after all, he'd already done an Aston Martin Lagonda.

        By                            Brendan McAleer                       

                                                                           Jul 3, 2022                   
 
View Photos
 



   John Brendan McAleerCar and Driver
 
Manufacturing the “turbodiesel” badge affixed to the back of this 1984 Peugeot 604 took Harjeet S. Kalsi two full weeks. With painstaking precision, he recreated the original font, milling a single thin piece of aluminum, micron by micron. Prototypes were made and discarded. He then mixed two batches of resin, getting the tint just right before pouring them into the millimeters-deep cavity. The excess was carefully hand-sanded away, and the piece then buffed to a spotless sheen. That's how much effort went into just the _badge_.









						This Peugeot 604 Is One Man's Obsessive Restoration
					

Harjeet Kalsi wasn't afraid to tackle the obscure French luxury car—after all, he'd already done an Aston Martin Lagonda.




					www.caranddriver.com


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## JohnDe (13 July 2022)

An interesting concept. It could work, but pricing will have to be at the premium end of the market and cost of doner stock will be a problem.

*Developing a cutting-edge facility for converting any pre-1996 vehicle to electric power*









						Home - Iconic EV
					

A boutique garage offering a custom service for converting iconic pre-1996 vehicles to electric power.




					iconicev.com.au


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## JohnDe (15 July 2022)

> *Why Electric Vehicles Are Becoming More Popular In Rural Areas*
> 
> For a long time, there's been a stereotype that's portrayed electric vehicles as crippled woke vehicles only wealthy urbanites can afford to drive (or indeed can actually make use of because of very limited range).
> 
> ...


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## sptrawler (16 July 2022)

I wondered when the Federal Govt would say "hang on a minute, you State Govts are taking over our fuel excise tax", it has taken a while for the penny to drop.🤣
Not the sharpest tools in the shed.









						Albanese government seeks to pull plug on Victoria’s electric vehicle tax
					

Federal Labor has joined a legal bid to strike down Victoria’s controversial electric vehicle tax, opening up a fight with several states over who should control billions of dollars of road user revenue.




					www.theage.com.au
				



From the article:

The Commonwealth collects around $12 billion in fuel tax every year, but that will gradually shift to state coffers if more motorists adopt electric vehicles and states levy their own distance-based user charges.


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## SirRumpole (16 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I wondered when the Federal Govt would say "hang on a minute, you State Govts are taking over our fuel excise tax", it has taken a while for the penny to drop.🤣
> Not the sharpest tools in the shed.
> 
> 
> ...




Well, we knew it had to happen, EV drivers can't expect to get off scot free, but it's a bit of a hoot watching Federal and States slug it out over who gets the revenue.

Maybe they should take it to National Cabinet and agree to a 50/50 split.


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## Value Collector (16 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well, we knew it had to happen, EV drivers can't expect to get off scot free, but it's a bit of a hoot watching Federal and States slug it out over who gets the revenue.
> 
> Maybe they should take it to National Cabinet and agree to a 50/50 split.



Ev’s don’t get off entirely scot free.

1, we still pay rego.
2, we still pay GST on electricity purchases.
3, we produce extra profit for the government by adding demand to state owned electricity infrastructure.

And probably the best part.

4, we lower air pollution which costs the government Many billions per year, a cost that ICE car owners get off Scot free on.


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## SirRumpole (16 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Ev’s don’t get off entirely scot free.
> 
> 1, we still pay rego.
> 2, we still pay GST on electricity purchases.
> ...




Fair point on emissions.

Extra profit for government ? 

EV owners will be adding to demand for power alright which is where we already have a problem that infrastructure isn't keeping up with demand.

EV's are a tiny bit of the problem at the moment, but there are governments that will be dreading a rapid takeup of EV's because they know that the infrastructure isn't there to support it and it will cost billions.


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## Value Collector (16 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Fair point on emissions.
> 
> Extra profit for government ?
> 
> ...




Yep, up here in Queensland the government still owns a fair bit of electricity infrastructure, and they have already mentioned that the higher utilisation of these assets will increase the profits generated by them, This would be the same in other states too, especially Tasmania.

As we have discussed before, if the extra demand from EV’s is applied to the grid during times when low demand normally causes the network to be unprofitable, this higher demand / increased utilisation is very good for the grids profitability, 

Building more infrastructure will cost billions, but it will also generate billions in revenue, and as discussed a decent chunk of the extra demand will be met with exisiting infrastructure that currently sits idle for many hours a day.


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## Value Collector (16 July 2022)

I guess a main point to remember is that the grid isn’t struggling to meet demand 24/7, the majority of the time there is a lot of excess capacity just sitting there doing nothing, that only exists to meet those couple of hours of peak demand.

If cars are charged over night after 10pm and before 6am they can use all that extra capacity that is doing nothing, this means the owners of that capacity which is some cases is the government, will get to put those assets to work earning money when otherwise they wouldn’t be earning anything, this not only helps the owners earn more from their existing assets but it also helps reduce the cost of running the grid, because it doesn’t cost anything extra to use some of this infrastructure such as transmission lines, but their running costs can be spread across a larger customer base on a per unit basis.

See the peak in demand in the chart below, that’s the peak in demand when you can say the grid might struggle, but it’s only at that peak for 2 hours or so, either side of that peak is a lot of opportunity space to charge cars easily, without putting extra stress on the grid but instead actually increasing its profits and incentivising more investment.


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## SirRumpole (16 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I guess a main point to remember is that the grid isn’t struggling to meet demand 24/7, the majority of the time there is a lot of excess capacity just sitting there doing nothing, that only exists to meet those couple of hours of peak demand.
> 
> If cars are charged over night after 10pm and before 6am they can use all that extra capacity that is doing nothing, this means the owners of that capacity which is some cases is the government, will get to put those assets to work earning money when otherwise they wouldn’t be earning anything, this not only helps the owners earn more from their existing assets but it also helps reduce the cost of running the grid, because it doesn’t cost anything extra to use some of this infrastructure such as transmission lines, but their running costs can be spread across a larger customer base on a per unit basis.
> 
> ...



EVs will have to compete with a lot of other off peak devices as appliances get smarter. Clothes driers, dishwashers,  washing  machines as well as hot water systems, so the off peak time is going to get more crowded as time goes on.


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## mullokintyre (16 July 2022)

he UK show , Fully Charged, has released a video aimed at Australian watchers, extolling the virtues of the BYD Atto3.

Interestingly, he looks at what the average bread and butter vehicle owners might be lookng far, as distinct from what the well heeled owners might expect.
Mick


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## Value Collector (16 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> EVs will have to compete with a lot of other off peak devices as appliances get smarter. Clothes driers, dishwashers,  washing  machines as well as hot water systems, so the off peak time is going to get more crowded as time goes on.



All those devices you named are already being used extensively, if some of them switch to being used during off peak times, then that will open up more capacity during the traditional peak times.

Hot water systems switch on at about 10pm or 11pm depending on where you are, and finish in heating in about 2 hours so still plenty of time to charge cars, also more hot water heating will probably begin to occur during the solar power peak times, that’s when I heat mine.

Not to mention that the growth in home batteries will also take away peak hour demand, eg homes with batteries will be drawing zero from the grid during peak times, as they would have a full battery by the time people get home from work and starting cooking.

————————

Also, a major thing will begin to happen I believe. 

As the traditional off peak times begin to see growing demand, producing electricity during these times will become more profitable. This will be a massive incentive for companies to invest in more wind power assets, because at the moment excess wind power during these times is not sold at a profitable price.

So increasing demand during offpeak times increases the number of hours each day wind project owners will potentially be profitable which will incentivise them to build more, which will also add to peak capacity as well.


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## SirRumpole (16 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Not to mention that the growth in home batteries will also take away peak hour demand, eg homes with batteries will be drawing zero from the grid during peak times, as they would have a full battery by the time people get home from work and starting cooking.




That depends on the weather doesn't it ?

The last few weeks have shown that we can't depend on solar all the time and there really isn't enough storage to make up for droughts of more than a few hours.

Graphs posted by @Smurf1976 shows how still dependent we are on coal.


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## Value Collector (16 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> That depends on the weather doesn't it ?
> 
> The last few weeks have shown that we can't depend on solar all the time and there really isn't enough storage to make up for droughts of more than a few hours.
> 
> Graphs posted by @Smurf1976 shows how still dependent we are on coal.



We will be depended on coal for a while, but it will have a steady decline and be replaced by wind, solar and hydro that is backed up by Gas, pumped hydro and batteries. 

As I wrote above, one of the big blockers of new renewable infrastructure is the fear that they won’t be able to sell their electricity profitably, but as I said more demand during off peak times greatly assists that and does the existence of storage like batteries and pumped hydro and off course the ability to back up with gas.

As demand grows, people will build the supply, there is a lot of cash out there looking for a home.


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## Value Collector (16 July 2022)

Write now as I type this it is 10.50pm on the east coast of Australia, and both Victoria and SA have negative spot electricity prices because it’s a low demand time and they are producing a lot of wind.

This discourages wind producers, because they want to be able to sell their electricity at a decent price not give it away, if there was more cars charging in Victoria right now if would be great for the grid, and the wind generation companies.

Today in the middle of the day it was Queensland that had prices go negative due to it being sunny.

Off peak and Smart charging is going to be a massive incentive to producers.

You can see in the flow chart SA and VIC are trying to export as much as they can to NSW and TAS but the transmission lines linking the states are maxed out.

Brown and black are coal
Green is wind
Red is natural gas
Blue is hydro


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## Smurf1976 (17 July 2022)

The simplest way to look at charging EV's and the "big picture" effects is:

Charging it during the electricity demand peak = a real, actual problem that requires serious $ to be spent to accommodate it. Since it's largely unnecessary anyway, it makes little sense to do so beyond the extent it's actually needed.

Charging at any time other than the peak = no actual problem and in most cases still an overall efficiency improvement in fuel use even if the generation source is fossil fuel.

Charging using renewable energy that would otherwise be curtailed = the ideal outcome. Not always practical, but the best scenario to be putting to use a resource that's otherwise being wasted.

What we ideally need is a "smart" approach that gives users the option and incentivises the desirable one but does so in a manner that's simple for consumers and which gives them what they need.

For some users it's no problem to just leave the car plugged in and have it charge automatically when spare renewable energy is available. If they're only using 10% of the battery's capacity each day then it's just not an issue that it didn't charge on Tuesday - Thursday nights when the wind wasn't blowing. Just doesn't matter in that scenario and that's a lot of consumers indeed it's the average one.

I'll note also that via the (completely artificial but very real) petrol price cycle which occurs in Australia's major cities, many drivers have already been conditioned to the idea of refuelling not on a daily basis or even just when the tank's getting low but rather, when the price is low.

As a clarification for those not in the major cities who are perhaps unaware, petrol prices do change dramatically in the cities, movements of 50 cents per litre are not uncommon, for no particular reason in terms of supply or even commodity prices. That's a somewhat illogical situation but it's a real one, it exists throughout many of Australia's cities, and has lead to many drivers intentionally buying when the price is down rather than waiting until they actually need more fuel.

That basic approach is extremely similar to the concept of charging an EV when there's abundant renewable energy with which to do so. It's filling up when it's cheap, not because you actually need it right now and not doing it daily either. 

For other users they need it fully charged by tomorrow morning regardless, but no problem if it doesn't do it until midnight or whatever the best time happens to be. Just so long as it's full at 7am all will be fine.

For a minority they actually do need it to start charging right now at maximum rate no matter what.

What's needed is a simple way to automate that for consumer use bearing in mind that whilst most will go along with a "do the right thing" approach, especially if they're saving money by doing so, the overwhelming majority of the population has no particular interest in or knowledge of the workings of power supply. They want it to work and that's it, it just works. Charging the car economically has appeal but they're not going to be checking the AEMO website every time they park the car. It's an obvious area for automation to address. It's not a reason to not use EV's in the first place.

So in summary there's really two issues - avoiding actual problems (peak demand) but beyond that it's about optimising for economics and environment given that by its very nature of being a battery an EV is well suited to that whereas most home and business appliances don't have that flexibility.


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## mullokintyre (17 July 2022)

The queensland Gov have released their Electric Vehicle strategy.


> On 16 March 2022, the Queensland Government released Queensland's Zero Emission Vehicle Strategy 2022-2032 and the first Zero Emission Vehicle Action Plan 2022-2024.
> 
> This strategy is accelerating Queensland toward a cleaner, greener transport future while making sure our energy network supports the transition to zero emission vehicles.
> 
> ...



They will have the usual buyer incentives  of 3,000 on vehicles costing up to 58K (including GST).
A $10 million co-fund will support public charging options, in partnership with local government and industry.
Grants are available for up to $3 million.
 Government contribution towards fast charging infrastructure are up to 50%.
Part of this policy to replace their entire gov fleet with EV's



> We will replace all eligible government fleet vehicles with electric vehicles as current leases expire and when a suitable alternative is available and appropriate for business needs.
> 
> It is expected that there will be at least 288 electric vehicles in the Queensland Government fleet by the end of 2022.



Given that the Gov usually turns the vehicle over quickly, it will give a bit of a boost to the  used EV market.
However, the caveat is the word "Eligible".
There probably are not too many EV charging points in some of the remote Aboriginal settlements, but there is usually a few state or fed controlled com cars hanging around for the qango's and Public servants which may not fit the "eligible" criteria.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (18 July 2022)

The ACT Government is about to join the no more ICE cars by 2035 bandwagon according to Drive.com.au\


> Mainstream news outlets _The Sydney Morning Herald_ and _The Guardian_ have reported the ACT Government will later this week release a strategy document detailing a plan for 80 to 90 per cent of 'light vehicle' sales – passenger cars, SUVs and light commercial vehicles such as most utes and vans – to be electric by 2030.
> This will reportedly be followed by a move to "phase out" light vehicles in the territory "from 2035" – falling in line with Europe, where the decision was recently taken to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2035 (with some caveats).
> 
> However, few specific details about the ACT proposal have been released, and whether petrol and diesel new-car sales will be banned _by_ 2035 – or if petrol and diesel cars will start to disappear from showrooms _from_ 2035 (and banned entirely at a later date).



Given that the High court has struck  out restrictions on interstate trade, it remains to be seen whether someone could buy an Ice car across the border and bring it in to the ACT successfully.
Unless of course such a banning were to be imposed federally.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (18 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The ACT Government is about to join the no more ICE cars by 2035 bandwagon according to Drive.com.au\
> 
> Given that the High court has struck  out restrictions on interstate trade, it remains to be seen whether someone could buy an Ice car across the border and bring it in to the ACT successfully.
> Unless of course such a banning were to be imposed federally.
> Mick



It also remains to be seen whether anyone would want to buy an ice car out of state and bring it in, I mean by 2035 ICE cars might be seen in a much different light of by then EV’s have proven to be much better, charging networks rolled out etc etc. 

It’s my opinion that by the time these laws start to bite, the decline of the ICE car will be already well advanced.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It also remains to be seen whether anyone would want to buy an ice car out of state and bring it in, I mean by 2035 ICE cars might be seen in a much different light of by then EV’s have proven to be much better, charging networks rolled out etc etc.
> 
> It’s my opinion that by the time these laws start to bite, the decline of the ICE car will be already well advanced.



Yea, predicting trends, especially the future, can be a bit problematic. (my apologies to Yoga Berra).
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (18 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It’s my opinion that by the time these laws start to bite, the decline of the ICE car will be already well advanced.




Let's hope that the manufacturers will have sorted out the supply problems by then.

As usual, Oz will be well down the priority list.


----------



## JohnDe (18 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The ACT Government is about to join the no more ICE cars by 2035 bandwagon according to Drive.com.au\
> 
> Given that the High court has struck  out restrictions on interstate trade, it remains to be seen whether someone could buy an Ice car across the border and bring it in to the ACT successfully.
> Unless of course such a banning were to be imposed federally.
> Mick




The ACT governments have always been special. Sometimes they forget that they are a Territory and think that they govern for all. Oh well, lets see what the rest of the world are doing -


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## JohnDe (18 July 2022)

> *Queensland's electric vehicle charging network to extend west along Flinders Highway*
> 
> Electric vehicles could soon be heading west as phase three of Queensland's Electric Super Highway is rolled out.
> 
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (18 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yea, predicting trends, especially the future, can be a bit problematic. (my apologies to Yoga Berra).
> Mick



Yea, but the “future ain’t what it used to be” Yogi Berra


----------



## sptrawler (19 July 2022)

The down side of high tech over the air upgradability, it sounds as though it wont be long, before they get everyone on the drip feed payment schemes. 😂 









						From $20 heated steering wheels to fancy exercise bike classes, beware the pitfalls of over-subscribing
					

With news BMW is offering subscriptions for features like heated steering wheels, customers might fear the "microtransactions" model is meant to gouge them. But that's not really the end game for sellers, writes Louise Grimmer.




					www.abc.net.au
				



From the article:
Car makers are among the first cabs off the rank, using software to turn on and off optional extras.

German auto maker BMW is offering "in-car microtransactions" to access options for car buyers in Britain, Korea, Germany, New Zealand and South Africa. A heated steering wheel, for example, has a monthly cost of NZ$20 in New Zealand, and £10 in the UK (both around $18)

Other markets including Australia will soon follow.

In the UK, seven of 13 "digital services" — from heated seats to automatic high beam and driving assistance — are now available in subscription form.


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## SirRumpole (19 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The down side of high tech over the air upgradability, it sounds as though it wont be long, before they get everyone on the drip feed payment schemes. 😂
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Stuff that for a joke what a stupid idea. 

Might come out one morning and find you can't start your vehicle because hubby or wifey hasn't renewed the subscription.


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## JohnDe (19 July 2022)

BMW trying to drop the retail price while they are desperate for cash.

Purchase the car new & you have the options list, choose heated seats & it’s a once off (premium) payment. Change your mind later and it’s a subscription.

It’s more cost effective to build cars with everything pre-installed, rather than having different assembly parts go down the line.


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## mullokintyre (19 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> BMW trying to drop the retail price while they are desperate for cash.
> 
> Purchase the car new & you have the options list, choose heated seats & it’s a once off (premium) payment. Change your mind later and it’s a subscription.



Sounds fine to me, don't need a heated steering wheel in summer!
Actually, I don't think i need a heated steering wheel at all!
Mick


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## JohnDe (19 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Sounds fine to me, don't need a heated steering wheel in summer!
> Actually, I don't think i need a heated steering wheel at all!
> Mick




It seems that with most of BMW’s owner base. 

The traditional theme of vehicle ownership is changing.


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> BMW trying to drop the retail price while they are desperate for cash.
> 
> Purchase the car new & you have the options list, choose heated seats & it’s a once off (premium) payment. Change your mind later and it’s a subscription.
> 
> It’s more cost effective to build cars with everything pre-installed, rather than having different assembly parts go down the line.




So if you sell the car and the new owner doesn't want to pay the subscription. BMW comes and rips the seats out ?


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## sptrawler (19 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So if you sell the car and the new owner doesn't want to pay the subscription. BMW comes and rips the seats out ?



No they just make the add on bits non functioning, like heated seats, memory seats, heated steering wheel, memory steering wheel position, auto dimming, auto on headlights, park assist, navigation etc.
Whatever they can make as an electrical convenience item, can be disabled over the wifi connection , then they are like the cars we used to drive.😂


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## SirRumpole (19 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> No they just make the add on bits non functioning, like heated seats, memory seats, heated steering wheel, memory steering wheel position, auto dimming, auto on headlights, park assist, navigation etc.
> Whatever they can make as an electrical convenience item, can be disabled over the wifi connection , then they are like the cars we used to drive.😂




I doubt it would be too difficult to bypass the wifi and directly connect the bits to a switch, and who would know ?


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## JohnDe (19 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So if you sell the car and the new owner doesn't want to pay the subscription. BMW comes and rips the seats out ?




It ends like any software subscription - stop paying and the service stops after 30 days.

The BMW software will just stop activation of whatever option hasn't been paid for.


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## qldfrog (19 July 2022)

When watching this thread, an ads pops up for Atlis..EV utes..?
Thanks Google 








						AMV™ | Home
					

With three distinct business units - Energy, XP platform, and XT pickup truck, at AMV we are providing a one-stop solution for commercial and residential customers alike.




					www.atlismotorvehicles.com
				



Anyone aware of these guys?


----------



## SirRumpole (19 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> When watching this thread, an ads pops up for Atlis..EV utes..?
> Thanks Google
> 
> 
> ...



Haven't heard of them.

Musk will probably buy them out like Gates did with his competitors.


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## moXJO (20 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> When watching this thread, an ads pops up for Atlis..EV utes..?
> Thanks Google
> 
> 
> ...



Parts and servicing will be the problem on a lot of these smaller companies.


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## Value Collector (20 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt it would be too difficult to bypass the wifi and directly connect the bits to a switch, and who would know ?



My Tesla came with heated seats in the back seat, but they didn’t work because I hadn’t selected that upgraded.

However, I’m the tesla app recently I got a notification that there was a “sale” and I could unlock the rear heated seats for $250, so I did.

Same with self driving software, they all have it but you have to pay to unlock the software, some Teslas were actually built with long range batteries due to manufacturing supply issues, but the batteries are software limited unless you paid for it.


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## SirRumpole (20 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> My Tesla came with heated seats in the back seat, but they didn’t work because I hadn’t selected that upgraded.
> 
> However, I’m the tesla app recently I got a notification that there was a “sale” and I could unlock the rear heated seats for $250, so I did.




Well it's obviously a marketing ploy, but if I buy a car with certain equipment then I expect it to work without paying extra.

So did you have locks on the aircon, sat nav , radio, auto drive , power windows ?

Where will it end if that sort of thing continues ?

Was the $250 a one off payment or a subscription ?


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## JohnDe (20 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well it's obviously a marketing ploy, but if I buy a car with certain equipment then I expect it to work without paying extra.
> 
> So did you have locks on the aircon, sat nav , radio, auto drive , power windows ?
> 
> Where will it end if that sort of thing continues ?




Choice, we all have a choice.


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## JohnDe (20 July 2022)

moXJO said:


> Parts and servicing will be the problem on a lot of these smaller companies.




Hyundai started off like that "Hyundai commenced its Australian operations through a single dealership in Perth in 1986, selling just one model."

They were cheap and reliable, so not too many issues, and only 1 year warranty from memory.


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## moXJO (20 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Hyundai started off like that "Hyundai commenced its Australian operations through a single dealership in Perth in 1986, selling just one model."
> 
> They were cheap and reliable, so not too many issues, and only 1 year warranty from memory.



Coming from a country/economy that was able to produce goods relatively cheap and at scale.  Always good to check where the manufacturing is based.


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## Value Collector (20 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Well it's obviously a marketing ploy, but if I buy a car with certain equipment then I expect it to work without paying extra.
> 
> So did you have locks on the aircon, sat nav , radio, auto drive , power windows ?
> 
> ...



One off payment of $250, it would have been $500 if I had added it when I purchased the car.

Rear Heated seats were marked as optional extras when I placed my order, and I chose not to pay $500 extra at the time.

But, due to certain manufacturing issues during the model 3 ramp up they found it easier to just put them in all the cars, and then just made it an option to unlock it.

When they offered it for half price, I decided to unlock it.

Cars have always come with optional extras and upgrades that cost extra, if a company wants to take the risk of paying to install them and hope that enough people choose to unlock them later I guess that’s a business risk they can choose to take.


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## SirRumpole (20 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> One off payment of $250, it would have been $500 if I had added it when I purchased the car.
> 
> Rear Heated seats were marked as optional extras when I placed my order, and I chose not to pay $500 extra at the time.
> 
> ...




I can see the business logic in what they have done, I guess I'm old fashioned enough not to like having a company in control of my vehicle after I've bought it.

That's a consumer based philosophical view, it will be interesting to see how far the 'shared ownership' view that some corporations take progresses and whether it faces consumer resistance.


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## Value Collector (20 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I can see the business logic in what they have done, I guess I'm old fashioned enough not to like having a company in control of my vehicle after I've bought it.
> 
> That's a consumer based philosophical view, it will be interesting to see how far the 'shared ownership' view that some corporations take progresses and whether it faces consumer resistance.



You can just not connect it to wifi and operate it like a normal car and never update anything if you like, but I think the benefits of updates out weigh the drawbacks.


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## Value Collector (20 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The down side of high tech over the air upgradability, it sounds as though it wont be long, before they get everyone on the drip feed payment schemes. 😂
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s also a way to escape some of the luxury vehicle tax.

If you pay for all the upgrades upfront included in the price of the car, and that pushes the cars value over the luxury vehicle tax threshold you end up paying 26% (or what ever the rate is) in tax on all the amount over that level.

How ever, if you add those features on later you will avoid triggering the tax on those purchases.


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## SirRumpole (20 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It’s also a way to escape some of the luxury vehicle tax.
> 
> If you pay for all the upgrades upfront included in the price of the car, and that pushes the cars value over the luxury vehicle tax threshold you end up paying 26% (or what ever the rate is) in tax on all the amount over that level.
> 
> How ever, if you add those features on later you will avoid triggering the tax on those purchases.




Good point but sshh, don't tell the government. 

Another reason why the second hand EV market will be important.

If governments electrify their fleets and turn the cars over every 3 years, they will obviously not be paying luxury tax and consumers will benefit.


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## qldfrog (20 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I can see the business logic in what they have done, I guess I'm old fashioned enough not to like having a company in control of my vehicle after I've bought it.
> 
> That's a consumer based philosophical view, it will be interesting to see how far the 'shared ownership' view that some corporations take progresses and whether it faces consumer resistance.



Remember: you will own nothing but be happy..You will end up purchasing a lease on a car, not a car , pay the cost monthly by direct debit and be happy..no worries etc...
obviously, for this to work for the corporations, it means you will be the sucker but hey..
so your phone, your car, next your house, your land and even your money....people are happily moving to serfdom..and will so disregard the notion of property ownership...
Step by step we creep..but the reset is just conspiracy


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## JohnDe (20 July 2022)

Something for everyone 









						Power couple tie the knot after shared love of electric vehicles sparks romance
					

Margaret and Hugh fell in love over their interest in electric cars. Now they're on a mission to dispel falsehoods about the technology, based on their own experience.




					www.abc.net.au


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## mullokintyre (21 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Short hop freight traffic would be an ideal proving ground, without putting the RPT customers at risk as guinea pigs.
> Scalability would be an issue,  the ES-19 has four engines of 400 KW each, the equivalent of around 9  base model tesla model 3.
> I can find no information on aviation websites as to the battery capacity of the ES 19 , but I can imagine it would be huge, and the weight significant.
> Not to mention the size of the charging cable!
> ...



Things are moving along in the  Electric Aircraft sphere.
From The evil Murdoch Empire


> The race to achieve zero emissions in flight has a new contender.
> Regional Express has teamed up with Sydney Seaplanes’ subsidiary Dovetail Electric Aviation to pioneer the conversion of turbine-powered aircraft to electric.
> 
> Under the partnership, electric engines will be retrofit to legacy aircraft initially for regional and general aviation flying.
> ...



The short haul SAAB 340's will need to be upgraded some time in the future.
Perhaps this is the way they are going about it.
Mick


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## qldfrog (21 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Things are moving along in the  Electric Aircraft sphere.
> From The evil Murdoch Empire
> 
> The short haul SAAB 340's will need to be upgraded some time in the future.
> ...



I have a fundamental issue with E planes as battery energy density is nowhere near fossil fuel especially aviation fuel.
It means every electric plane is heavier,can carry less and can not go as far.so we will not be able to compare fairly.
A bit like if all ev cars were only 2 seaters/ no boot space .
I know in the new world,who cares but this will definitely ensure no mass plane travel.. perfectly in line with intentions


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I have a fundamental issue with E planes as battery energy density is nowhere near fossil fuel especially aviation fuel.
> It means every electric plane is heavier,can carry less and can not go as far.so we will not be able to compare fairly.
> A bit like if all ev cars were only 2 seaters/ no boot space .
> I know in the new world,who cares but this will definitely ensure no mass plane travel.. perfectly in line with intentions



Solar panels on the wings might help.


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## wayneL (21 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Solar panels on the wings might help.



And wind turbines on the rudder?


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## SirRumpole (21 July 2022)

wayneL said:


> And wind turbines on the rudder?



I doubt it.

However we may see the return of hydrogen powered blimps I f we can get the Hindenburg  out of our minds.


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## wayneL (21 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> However we may see the return of hydrogen powered blimps I f we can get the Hindenburg  out of our minds.



Boooo, thought I'd just invented a perpetual motion machine 😝


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## qldfrog (22 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Solar panels on the wings might help.



More seriously, why not consider e fuel.i know it is a dirty word, does not need new plane and is not woke
after all carbon neutral and superhigh energy density
Instead of transforming planes into Hindenburg bombs with H2..which has too low energy density or lithium crematorium paper weights..
As an engineer..aka solving problems with sciences and technology, the craziness of some of the trends is maddening


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## Smurf1976 (22 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> why not consider e fuel



Ultimately it's horrendously inefficient in terms of getting energy from the primary source to the wheels.

That said, well there's a lot of internal combustion engines around and there's at least one production plant proposed in Australia that I'm aware of so we could see it to some extent.


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## qldfrog (22 July 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Ultimately it's horrendously inefficient in terms of getting energy from the primary source to the wheels.
> 
> That said, well there's a lot of internal combustion engines around and there's at least one production plant proposed in Australia that I'm aware of so we could see it to some extent.



Rockets are not efficient yet we are not using rubber bands.
Efficiency is not everything.
Speed, or doing the actual job can be important.
If you assume that CO2 is an issue .i strongly disagree there but my opinion is irrelevant, then you ghave to consider: cost economic and ecologic of new plane vs existing one, and capacity....
Electric planes are propeller planes not jets.. not that efficient as they fly lower, are restricted to short hops, slower and have far less carrying ability so might need multiple trips of e version vs fuel one.
Sure, for air trips from gold coast to sunshine coast and sunday flights.
Maybe even Europe or US intercities. A few hundred kms
But not for a Brisbane HK or even Brisbane Sydney...
A slow return to the 1920s.step by step we creep.
Going backwards for ideology and greed


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## Smurf1976 (22 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Efficiency is not everything.
> Speed, or doing the actual job can be important.



Totally agree and there's countless examples where the technically most efficient way of doing something and the commercially practical one are not the same.

My guess is there are still some surprises in store with all of this.


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## mullokintyre (22 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Electric planes are propeller planes not jets.. not that efficient as they fly lower, are restricted to short hops, slower and have far less carrying ability so might need multiple trips of e version vs fuel one.



I might take issue with the above statement.
People often confuse modern jet enginess with rocket propulsion.
Electric planes can be propeller or can be turbo fans.
In  a  turbo fan jet, the avtur is burnt  to produce the rotational  speed of a turbine, which sucks air in and speeds it up via a series of compressor rotors.
The thrust is largely supplied by the  air  being accelerated, with only a small part of the thrust is provided by exausting the burnt hot gasses.
A turbo fan built using an electric motor is being tested right now.
They have some distinct advantages, made with with  fewer parts, cheaper to build, quieter, and do not have the spool up/down lag times that current  avtur engines have.
The project may not scale up, but smaller electric turbo fans have been built and tested.
Mick


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## sptrawler (22 July 2022)

Looks like the Cyber truck isn't coming to Aus.









						Tesla Cybertruck deposits to be refunded in Australia after online ordering disappears
					

Two months after the Cybertruck was wiped from Tesla’s Australian website, customers who placed an order can apply for a refund of their deposit.




					www.drive.com.au


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## mullokintyre (22 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Looks like the Cyber truck isn't coming to Aus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They still have not got any sales in the US, this truck was unveiled in 2019, and the price tag was USD$39,9990, close enough to $40k.
It is now not due until 2023, though there are some bets out it will not make that deadline either.
The price tag will most likely be somewhat higher as well.
According to one of the articles I read The teal mango
The main reason for cancellation in OZ, the UK and Europe is due to  regulatory  compliance in these countries, that do not allow  sharp angles  , particularly at the front.
It also suggests that production of the vehicle will not start  until late 2023 at best, but they do have over a million orders  for the vehicle, which may also explain part of the reason for the cancellation.
A million orders is probably a couple of years supply.
In the meantime, Rivian, one of the cybertrucks main rivals, has already had its truck out in the market, although at a planned production run   next quarter of a 3000 units, its not going to flood the market. Particulary if it concentrates on the  100,000  EV vans that Amazon has ordered.
Cybertucks other main rival the F150 , is also in production and making deliveries.
It will be a more serious rival as Ford plan to produce 150,000 trucks in 2023.
GMC will start production of the Silverado EV early in 2023, so it will also be out there competing with the  Cybertruck.
Mick


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## qldfrog (22 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I might take issue with the above statement.
> People often confuse modern jet enginess with rocket propulsion.
> Electric planes can be propeller or can be turbo fans.
> In  a  turbo fan jet, the avtur is burnt  to produce the rotational  speed of a turbine, which sucks air in and speeds it up via a series of compressor rotors.
> ...



Thanks did not know that.so turbine but electric motor propelled.. why not
Weight issue still there..plus the fact an empty battery is as heavy as a fully loaded one....so same weight when taking off than on landing..makes a ..big..difference.


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## mullokintyre (22 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Thanks did not know that.so turbine but electric motor propelled.. why not
> Weight issue still there..plus the fact an empty battery is as heavy as a fully loaded one....so same weight when taking off than on landing..makes a ..big..difference.



Weight in planes is a very inexact science.
Fuel burn during  flight  can certainly reduce weight, but sometimes you have to consider where the Centre of gravity shifts , so that it does not move out of the flying envelope.
The flying characteristics of an aircraft can change with the change of C of G.
There is also the consideration that  whenever you add fuel to increase range, it s not linear, because you then have to add fuel to get that extra weight off the round, which means you have to add fuel , and so on.
There is also the consideration that for most commercial aircraft, the max takeoff weight is significantly higher than the max landing weight, which means that often an aircraft that has to return to base soon after takeoff, has to either burn fuel or dump it to get below the max landing weight.
So there some advantages as well as disadvantages to having the fixed weight of the batteries, but it limits the max takeoff weight to whatever the max landing weight might be.
It may be a case where  a hybrid type  combination would be useful.
Aircraft like the venerable 747 have an  auxillary power unit (APU)  at the very back which is a small avtur burning turbine that provides electrical power to the cabin.  By adding as much avtur on board that is the difference between the landing and takeoff weight, they could run a genset to keep the batteries topped up during flight and over the course of the flight bring gross weight back to max landing weight.
Mick


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## JohnDe (22 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Weight in planes is a very inexact science.
> Fuel burn during  flight  can certainly reduce weight, but sometimes you have to consider where the Centre of gravity shifts , so that it does not move out of the flying envelope.
> The flying characteristics of an aircraft can change with the change of C of G.
> There is also the consideration that  whenever you add fuel to increase range, it s not linear, because you then have to add fuel to get that extra weight off the round, which means you have to add fuel , and so on.
> ...




A 747 sized electric plane? We are decades away from that, yes some sort of hybrid would work but why? The saving in CO2 would only be when cruising, the weight and size of the hybrid unit will had high cost and complexity when there are better alternatives available.

_"The primary problem lies in battery technology: an electric-powered aircraft the size of a Boeing 747 would require 90MW at takeoff"_



> Although there is lot of talk these days about electronic aircraft, technology required to develop a large electric transport aircraft remains more than elusive.
> 
> Actually, it is beyond imagination, says David Alexander, director at the aerospace standards-setting organisation SAE International.
> 
> ...




https://reneweconomy.com.au/rio-tin...n-world-and-shine-path-to-100-pct-renewables/
*Rio Tinto battery to be biggest of its type in world*_. A 45MW big battery now under construction for mining giant Rio Tinto’s massive iron ore operations in Western Australia will be the biggest of its type in the world_


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## mullokintyre (22 July 2022)

I agree, there is little chance of there being a 747 sized aircraft using existing technology, I was using the example of the APU on the 747 as an example of the genset capabilities already in use.
I don't know if you read the original article, but it was talking about small commuter aircraft in the 12 to 26 passenger size aircraft doing short regional commuter hops. 
Which is were the growth for EV type aircraft  is  more likely to be.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (22 July 2022)

> *Ford has signed a new round of deals to lock in critical mineral supplies from Aussie miners*
> 
> Automotive giant Ford has stepped up its efforts to secure its future supply chain in the electric vehicle space, with the company’s eyes firmly set on Australian-listed partners to secure essential minerals needed for its giant factories.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

The subscription model accelerates.








						Tesla makes navigation a monthly subscription after first eight years
					

New Tesla orders no longer come with lifetime access to satellite navigation. Instead, it forms part of a monthly subscription eight years after taking delivery.




					www.drive.com.au
				




Spotted by _Teslarati_, all new Tesla vehicles ordered globally after Wednesday 20 July, 2022 will no longer come with lifetime access to the Standard Connectivity package.
Instead, the Standard Connectivity package – which includes satellite navigation, Bluetooth, playback via a USB drive, and FM radio – will expire after eight years from the date of delivery, and become an optional extra.

In North America, the Standard Connectivity pack also includes SiriusXM satellite radio capability.
Tesla does not say whether basic functions such as Bluetooth and FM radio will be deleted once the free Standard Connectivity subscription ends after eight years. However, Tesla does say certain navigation functions will be removed.

While subscription services are being experimented with in the automotive industry – including BMW, which recently introduced monthly charges for heated seats – Tesla is the first major car brand to make core systems such as satellite navigation a subscription-based optional extra.
The Premium Connectivity package, which has been offered as a monthly subscription since 30 June 2019, adds live traffic and satellite maps for the navigation system, in-built music and video streaming, an in-car karaoke app, and an internet browser.
All Tesla vehicles come with a 30-day trial for the Premium Connectivity service; after which time a monthly $AU9.99 fee applies.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The subscription model accelerates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, and pay through the nose for the rest of your ownership.

That sort of thing would definitely put me off buying a Tesla, although at my age 8 years may see me out.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, and pay through the nose for the rest of your ownership.
> 
> That sort of thing would definitely put me off buying a Tesla, although at my age 8 years may see me out.



I can actually see the entertainment/navigation issue causing some trouble, as at the moment you can always use a third party nav system through apple car play or android auto, so to stop that the whole entertainment package will have to be disabled.
The problem with the subscription model is, it is a bit like buy now pay later, it is a poverty trap for people spending money before they earn it.
My guess is it will be a negative for Tesla as they have all their info on the central screen, it will IMO push buyers toward different manufacturers, but then again all the young people seem to be embracing the drip payment model, so maybe we fossils are getting out of touch with the new age.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I can actually see the entertainment/navigation issue causing some trouble, as at the moment you can always use a third party nav system through apple car play or android auto, so to stop that the whole entertainment package will have to be disabled.
> The problem with the subscription model is, it is a bit like buy now pay later, it is a poverty trap for people spending money before they earn it.
> My guess is it will be a negative for Tesla as they have all their info on the central screen, it will IMO push buyers toward different manufacturers, but then again all the young people seem to be embracing the drip payment model, so maybe we fossils are getting out of touch with the new age.




Yes , no satnav wouldn't bother me because I navigate with Google maps on the phone.

I assume AutoDrive would also be a subscription. 

It would seem that this action will adversly affect resale prices and one wonders what next, air conditioning, power windows ?


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes , no satnav wouldn't bother me because I navigate with Google maps on the phone.
> 
> I assume AutoDrive would also be a subscription.
> 
> It would seem that this action will adversly affect resale prices and one wonders what next, air conditioning, power windows ?



Maybe even motor run and battery charge function? Sorry unless you pay an E.V subscription, we will disable your charge and run function, by the way we are currently doing a vehicle/  Netflicks and uber eats package at a 10% discount.🤣


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe even motor run and battery charge function? Sorry unless you pay an E.V subscription, we will disable your charge and run function, by the way we are currently doing a vehicle/  Netflicks and uber eats package at a 10% discount.🤣




It's like a builder expecting to live in your house after you pay him in full for the finished product.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It's like a builder expecting to live in your house after you pay him in full for the finished product.



Yes, or the builder saying, sorry you can only lease the doors, windows and toilet, you can't buy them outright.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, or the builder saying, sorry you can only lease the doors, windows and toilet, you can't buy them outright.




I really think that sort of thing should be illegal. It's all very well saying buy a car where that policy doesn't apply, but pretty sort all makers will be doing it and there will be no choice.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I really think that sort of thing should be illegal. It's all very well saying buy a car where that policy doesn't apply, but pretty sort all makers will be doing it and there will be no choice.



Yep, thin edge of the wedge, it isn't like the old days where you could say I don't want a radio, I will have a better after market one of my choice installed.
These new cars like the Tesla have everything driven through the infotainment system, so you have to buy it, it is a critical component.
The reason I didn't buy the Tesla model Y was because of the center all in one display, I didn't like it in my Mini Cooper S and I don't like it i the Tesla having to look to the center of the car to see your speed is crazy.
The other thing is all the A/C controls etc are on the center display, so how that is legal when you can be booked for looking or touching your phone is weired.
I'm waiting for someone to challenge it in court "why am I booked for touching my phone because it takes my attention from the road, when cars have a touch screen in the middle of the dashboard and I'm not booked for touching or looking at that, when it does exactly the same function"?
I'm surprised it hasn't been challenged, or that a display in front of the driver hasn't been made mandatory, maybe because the media yuppies and woke politicians drive a Tesla who knows?


----------



## JohnDe (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, and pay through the nose for the rest of your ownership.
> 
> That sort of thing would definitely put me off buying a Tesla, although at my age 8 years may see me out.




Even after getting it for free for 8 years?

_Tesla__ no longer provides their Standard Connectivity package, which includes basic navigation, at no cost for the lifetime of the vehicle. According to an update on Tesla’s Connectivity support page, all new vehicle orders made after July 20, 2022 are impacted by the change._​​_“All new Tesla vehicles ordered on or before July 20, 2022, will have Standard Connectivity features at no cost for the lifetime of the vehicle (excluding retrofits or upgrades required for any features or services externally supplied to the vehicle – e.g. telecommunications network).”_​​_If you place *an order after July 20, 2022* your* Standard Connectivity package will only be good for 8 years*, after which you will have to begin paying for either the Standard or Premium package._​
_








						Tesla limits Standard Connectivity package to 8 years on new vehicle purchases
					

Tesla's Standard Connectivity package will only be good for 8 years, after which you will have to begin paying for basic navigation.




					driveteslacanada.ca
				



_


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Even after getting it for free for 8 years?




The principle is the same.

I pay money for a vehicle as is and I don't expect the seller to have any control over my vehicle after I pay the purchase price. I now OWN the vehicle.

Neither do I  expect the builder of my house to charge me rent once I've paid him in full.


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yep, thin edge of the wedge, it isn't like the old days where you could say I don't want a radio, I will have a better after market one of my choice installed.
> These new cars like the Tesla have everything driven through the infotainment system, so you have to buy it, it is a critical component.
> The reason I didn't buy the Tesla model Y was because of the center all in one display, I didn't like it in my Mini Cooper S and I don't like it i the Tesla having to look to the center of the car to see your speed is crazy.
> The other thing is all the A/C controls etc are on the center display, so how that is legal when you can be booked for looking or touching your phone is weired.
> ...



Aren’t all cars aircon buttons and knobs in the centre area anyway?

Whether is the radio, aircon, navigation or other buttons most of them are in the similar area as the Tesla screen, so I don’t really see a difference.

The aircon temp adjust is always in the same spot on the screen, you get used to where it is just like you do in any other car, same with speed etc.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

Another issue starting to evolve, with all this centralised control systems, no doubt it will mature but it looks like it is getting a bit ahead of itself IMO.








						Tesla cars, Bluetooth locks, vulnerable to hackers, researchers say
					

Millions of digital locks worldwide, including on Tesla cars, can be remotely unlocked by hackers exploiting a vulnerability in Bluetooth technology, a cybersecurity firm said on Tuesday.




					www.reuters.com
				



Millions of digital locks worldwide, including on Tesla (TSLA.O) cars, can be remotely unlocked by hackers exploiting a vulnerability in Bluetooth technology, a cybersecurity firm said on Tuesday.

In a video shared with Reuters, NCC Group researcher Sultan Qasim Khan was able to open and then drive a Tesla using a small relay device attached to a laptop which bridged a large gap between the Tesla and the Tesla owner's phone.
"This proves that any product relying on a trusted BLE connection is vulnerable to attacks even from the other side of the world," the UK-based firm said in a statement, referring to the Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) protocol - technology used in millions of cars and smart locks which automatically open when in close proximity to an authorised device.

Although Khan demonstrated the hack on a 2021 Tesla Model Y, NCC Group said any smart locks using BLE technology, including residential smart locks, could be unlocked in the same way.


----------



## JohnDe (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The principle is the same.
> 
> I pay money for a vehicle as is and I don't expect the seller to have any control over my vehicle after I pay the purchase price. I now OWN the vehicle.
> 
> Neither do I  expect the builder of my house to charge me rent once I've paid him in full.




You may own the vehicle, but the free navigation software belongs to the company. Would you prefer that it was not free for the 8 years, and instead was a fee based subscription from day one of ownership?


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Are all cars aircon buttons and knobs in the centre area anyway?
> 
> Whether is the radio, aircon, navigation or other buttons most of them are in the similar area as the Tesla screen, so I don’t really see a difference.
> 
> The aircon temp adjust is always in the same spot on the screen, you get used to where it is just like you do in any other car, same with speed etc.



With the touch screen, attention has to be diverted from the road to ensure you are accessing the correct function, with knobs it can be done by feel.
But no doubt it will all go to screen control, it doesn't mean it is better, just cheaper to incorporate and configure.
Everyone to their own IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, and pay through the nose for the rest of your ownership.
> 
> That sort of thing would definitely put me off buying a Tesla, although at my age 8 years may see me out.



All the basic autopilot features are still free, it’s just the full self driving that you have to pay extra for, it used to cost about $10k upfront, but is now moving to subscription.

So if you don’t want to pay for it, your car will still drive down the freeway on autopilot, it just won’t do all the advanced features like navigate itself.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> You may own the vehicle, but the free navigation software belongs to the company. Would you prefer that it was not free for the 8 years, and instead was a fee based subscription from day one of ownership?




The software may belong to the company, but so does the rest of the car until they sell it to a purchaser.

I really can't see the point you are trying to make.

Should I have to pay a subscription on the air-con as well ?


----------



## JohnDe (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes , no satnav wouldn't bother me because I navigate with Google maps on the phone.
> 
> I assume AutoDrive would also be a subscription.
> 
> It would seem that this action will adversly affect resale prices and one wonders what next, air conditioning, power windows ?




For some that is a handy tool. However, they risk breaking laws if they require to make a change while driving or don't have the device securely attached to the dashboard. This could also be a loop hole for insurance companies to use if the vehicle is in an accident and they can prove that the phones navigation was accessed while driving, and/or not securely mounted.

No such issues with a factory fitted Sat Nav

_*Using the GPS function on a mobile phone while driving*_​_You can use the GPS function on your mobile phone only if the phone is fixed to the vehicle in a commercially designed and manufactured cradle and you do not touch it while you are driving.  You will need to set the GPS location on your mobile phone before starting your journey and, if you need to make any changes while you are driving, you will need to pull over and park before making those changes._​


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> You may own the vehicle, but the free navigation software belongs to the company. Would you prefer that it was not free for the 8 years, and instead was a fee based subscription from day one of ownership?



I think as I said the problem will be at the moment you can use a third party supplier eg waze, here we go etc, if the pairing function becomes subscription it IMO becomes a restrictive trade practice as you may not want to use the supplied navigation system. Most supplied navigation is rubbish anyway, open source of google maps is usually more up to date, so it wont be an issue, unless the manufacturer can lock you out of the pairing function, which i don't personally think should be allowed.


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes , no satnav wouldn't bother me because I navigate with Google maps on the phone.
> 
> I assume AutoDrive would also be a subscription.
> 
> It would seem that this action will adversly affect resale prices and one wonders what next, air conditioning, power windows




Sat Nav is already included for free, Teslas come with a free life time internet connection that runs the navigation and some back ground stuff.

But, you have to pay a $9 fee per month if you want the full internet package that comes with a Spotify subscription, and allows you to use YouTube and Netflix etc. but as I said the basic internet package is included.

—————
As I said also basic autopilot is included for free, it’s only the advanced features that cost extra, I believe the subscription is coming about because of consumer demand.


----------



## JohnDe (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The software may belong to the company, but so does the rest of the car until they sell it to a purchaser.
> 
> *I really can't see the point you are trying to make.*
> 
> Should I have to pay a subscription on the air-con as well ?




My point is that the manufacturer gave a free 8 year bonus. I can't understand why someone would scratch a vehicle from their list of possible options just because they'll loose the free option after 8 years.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> For some that is a handy tool. However, they risk breaking laws if they require to make a change while driving or don't have the device securely attached to the dashboard. This could also be a loop hole for insurance companies to use if the vehicle is in an accident and they can prove that the phones navigation was accessed while driving, and/or not securely mounted.
> 
> No such issues with a factory fitted Sat Nav
> 
> _*Using the GPS function on a mobile phone while driving*_​_You can use the GPS function on your mobile phone only if the phone is fixed to the vehicle in a commercially designed and manufactured cradle and you do not touch it while you are driving.  You will need to set the GPS location on your mobile phone before starting your journey and, if you need to make any changes while you are driving, you will need to pull over and park before making those changes._​




All that stuff is pretty irrelevant if the phone verbally gives directions. I have the phone out of view and just do what the voice tells me.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> For some that is a handy tool. However, they risk breaking laws if they require to make a change while driving or don't have the device securely attached to the dashboard. This could also be a loop hole for insurance companies to use if the vehicle is in an accident* and they can prove that the phones navigation was accessed while driving,* and/or not securely mounted.
> 
> No such issues with a factory fitted Sat Nav
> 
> _*Using the GPS function on a mobile phone while driving*_​_You can use the GPS function on your mobile phone only if the phone is fixed to the vehicle in a commercially designed and manufactured cradle and you do not touch it while you are driving.  You will need to set the GPS location on your mobile phone before starting your journey and,* if you need to make any changes while you are driving, you will need to pull over and park before making those changes.*_​



That is exactly the point I was making earlier, how can touching a phone while moving, if it is in a secure holder, be treated any different to touching a screen on a infotainment system located away from the line of view, IMO it wont be long before it is tested in court.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Sat Nav is already included for free, Teslas come with a free life time internet connection that runs the navigation and some back ground stuff.
> 
> But, you have to pay a $9 fee per month if you want the full internet package that comes with a Spotify subscription, and allows you to use YouTube and Netflix etc. but as I said the basic internet package is included.
> 
> ...




I think we would be naive to assume that the subscription thing won't spread to as many parts of the car as the makers can fit in. 

It's just a way of gouging people for as long as they can.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I think we would be naive to assume that the subscription thing won't spread to as many parts of the car as the makers can fit in.
> 
> It's just a way of gouging people for as long as they can.



It is just recovering the costs they are going to lose from the servicing of an ICE vehicle, the Govt should step in and legislate, before it gets out of control IMO.


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> All that stuff is pretty irrelevant if the phone verbally gives directions. I have the phone out of view and just do what the voice tells me.



Don’t you pay a subscription for that phone?

Obviously it’s not going to work for you if you stop paying for the internet connection.


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Don’t you pay a subscription for that phone?
> 
> Obviously it’s not going to work for you if you stop paying for the internet connection.




The internet connection is used for more things than car navigation.


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I think we would be naive to assume that the subscription thing won't spread to as many parts of the car as the makers can fit in.
> 
> It's just a way of gouging people for as long as they can.



I think it’s just a fact of life that internet access and software updates have ongoing costs, these can either be covered by large upfront costs, then people say “gee that car is expensive, let’s add a luxury tax to it” or the costs can be covered over time by monthly or annual fees.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Don’t you pay a subscription for that phone?
> 
> Obviously it’s not going to work for you if you stop paying for the internet connection.



Yes but with a phone, if I wish to purchase it outright, I can chose who I want to use as the information provider.
With propriety software in a car that probably wont be an option, unless as I said the Govt legislate to allow items to be provided by third party providers eg navigation and remote access e.g blue tooth, android auto, apple car play .


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The internet connection is used for more things than car navigation.



Yes, but your car requires an internet connection to offer you a high end navigation experience, Tesla has to pay Telstra or optus to keep the car connected as you drive around, this of course costs money.

At the moment the basic level of data needed for navigation, controlling the car via the app etc is provided free, (well is built into the cost of the car)


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes but with a phone, if I wish to purchase it outright, I can chose who I want to use as the information provider.
> With propriety software in a car that probably wont be an option, unless as I said the Govt legislate to allow items to be provided by third party providers eg navigation and remote access e.g blue tooth, android auto, apple car play .



Either way you have to pay some one for that service right? It’s not something you expect for free just because you purchased a piece of hardware is it?


----------



## SirRumpole (23 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Either way you have to pay some one for that service right? It’s not something you expect for free just because you purchased a piece of hardware is it?




But Tesla ties you to their internet service, you can't chose anyone else (as far as I know).

So they can charge what they like without competition and can keep hiking the rates as much as they want.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Either way you have to pay some one for that service right? It’s not something you expect for free just because you purchased a piece of hardware is it?



That isn't correct, they are forcing you to use their propriety software, when you may not want to, for example I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee the navigation software is rubbish, so I changed the head unit to an android auto compatible unit and use third party software.
If as in the case of Tesla, the central control device controls everything, the option of changing the unit isn't available to me.
It would be like buying a mobile phone from Telstra and only being able to use Telstra apps.


----------



## JohnDe (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is exactly the point I was making earlier, how can touching a phone while moving, if it is in a secure holder, be treated any different to touching a screen on a infotainment system located away from the line of view, IMO it wont be long before it is tested in court.




Technically it should not be any different. However, the issue may be the size of the screen requires more driver attention which contributes to inattentiveness. There is also the fact that some people do not have their phone mounted on the dash, and instead have it sitting on the centre console. And then there's the insurance company; what's stopping them from denying a claim if they can prove that the phone navigation was being used at the time of the accident, or that the mounting device caused or contributed to the accident or passenger injury?


----------



## JohnDe (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> But Tesla ties you to their internet service, you can't chose anyone else (as far as I know).
> 
> So they can charge what they like without competition and can keep hiking the rates as much as they want.





Tesla charge $9.99 per month for the Premium system. which includes internet.

owners do not have to use the Tesla internet, they can use their own Wi-Fi from stationary locations or from their phone.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Technically it should not be any different. However, the issue may be the size of the screen requires more driver attention which contributes to inattentiveness. There is also the fact that some people do not have their phone mounted on the dash, and instead have it sitting on the centre console. And then there's the insurance company; what's stopping them from denying a claim if they can prove that the phone navigation was being used at the time of the accident, or that the mounting device caused or contributed to the accident or passenger injury?



Using and navigating a central located touch screen brings up the same issues IMO, I'm just surprised it has been allowed, when they make such a song and dance about accidents caused by phone use in cars.
It is only my take on it, but I imagine it will be quite easy for someone to get distracted while concentrating on the touch screen and as a motorbike rider it is a real worry when people aren't watching the road.


----------



## JohnDe (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Using and navigating a central located touch screen brings up the same issues IMO, I'm just surprised it has been allowed, when they make such a song and dance about accidents caused by phone use in cars.
> It is only my take on it, but I imagine it will be quite easy for someone to get distracted while concentrating on the touch screen and as a motorbike rider it is a real worry when people aren't watching the road.




True. However, the Tesla safety system monitors the surrounding area and will apply the brakes if there is a chance of impact, including a person or car coming in from the side front. There is also voice recognition, which requires no screen input.



			https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/delivery/public/video/tesla/3af532fc-a9a7-4598-b2ab-d870542e40e8/bvlatuR/WEBHD/safety-activesafety-aeb-deskop
		


*Automatic Emergency Braking*
Can detect vehicles, pedestrians or objects in front of you and applies the brakes to mitigate impact



			https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/delivery/public/video/tesla/ed60c3e5-8f32-4f47-a29d-e2201e3b2523/bvlatuR/WEBHD/safety-activesafety-forwardcollision
		


*Forward Collision Warning*
Provides visual and audible warnings of impending collisions with vehicles or obstacles



			https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/delivery/public/video/tesla/51401729-f7bd-4645-b434-52737304e2b5/bvlatuR/WEBHD/active-blindspot-desktop
		


*Blind Spot Collision Warning*
Warns when a possible collision is detected with a vehicle or obstacle in your blind spot



			https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/delivery/public/video/tesla/090fa612-eb1c-4b06-9a6f-c88914a5f4ed/bvlatuR/WEBHD/active-lanedeparture-desktop
		


*Lane Departure Avoidance*
Applies corrective lane-centering steering if a potential collision or unintended lane departure is detected


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> True. However, the Tesla safety system monitors the surrounding area and will apply the brakes if there is a chance of impact, including a person or car coming in from the side front. There is also voice recognition, which requires no screen input.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is nothing wrong with technology, maybe when I get hit up the ar$e, the person will use your list of safety systems to explain why it was my fault.
That's the thing today, it is always someone else's fault, so the technology should fit in well.


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> But Tesla ties you to their internet service, you can't chose anyone else (as far as I know).
> 
> So they can charge what they like without competition and can keep hiking the rates as much as they want.



It is very cheap though, the basic level is free and the premium is only $9 per month, I don’t think they are charging anything much over cost price, Because it includes a Spotify subscription which itself is normally more than $9 per month.

I actually get mine free though as a bonus of being an early adopter,


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That isn't correct, they are forcing you to use their propriety software, when you may not want to, for example I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee the navigation software is rubbish, so I changed the head unit to an android auto compatible unit and use third party software.
> If as in the case of Tesla, the central control device controls everything, the option of changing the unit isn't available to me.
> It would be like buying a mobile phone from Telstra and only being able to use Telstra apps.



The navigation and the internet required to run it is free with Tesla, you don’t need the premium package for the navigation to work.

The Jeep navigation was probably rubbish because it wasn’t connected to the internet, so didn’t update or have live information.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The navigation and the internet required to run it is free with Tesla, you don’t need the premium package for the navigation to work.
> 
> The Jeep navigation was probably rubbish because it wasn’t connected to the internet, so didn’t update or have live information.



The issue isn't about whether the navigation is any good or not, as long as the car can run third party software it isn't a problem, as I said they should not be able to make your access like bluetooth etc a subscription item as that will force you to have to use their navigation system.
It is all well and good while Tesla is working well and leading the pack, but if Tesla finds itself in difficulty at a later date same as most companies do, the subscription and propriety software may turn to slush.
It is just that we are so keen to give away our ability to chose what we want and so keen to accept what we are told these days, that who knows where all this ends. 
It is like free to air T.V, has become live and free and then will become pay as you go, the really weird bit is we the taxpayers funded the infrastructure, for the telco's and t.v networks to be able to bring about free t.v's demise.
It is just the way  of the world today, we cheer on the fact we can pay for something, that we previously received for free. The new wave snobbery, look at me I can afford to pay for something I used to receive with the car aren't I special. 🤣
Interesting times ahead, that's for sure.


----------



## JohnDe (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The issue isn't about whether the navigation is any good or not, as long as the car can run third party software it isn't a problem, as I said they should not be able to make your access like bluetooth etc a subscription item as that will force you to have to use their navigation system.
> It is all well and good while Tesla is working well and leading the pack, but if Tesla finds itself in difficulty at a later date same as most companies do, the subscription and propriety software may turn to slush.
> It is just that we are so keen to give away our ability to chose what we want and so keen to accept what we are told these days, that who knows where all this ends. It is like free to air T.V, has become live and free and then will become pay as you go, the really weird bit is we the taxpayers funded the infrastructure, for the telco's and t.v networks to be able to bring about free t.v's demise.
> It is just the way  of the world today.




There’s is no subscription for any Bluetooth.

Remember the first car Sat Navigation systems, the ones which could only be updated by purchasing a CDROM for $200 - $400? Which was a lot of money back then, and was probably already out of date due to continual road changes & housing developments.

With a subscription service the system is always up to date and improved. 

What if Tesla go broke? What if it? What happens if your phone maker goes broke? Look at what happened when Holden shut the doors, usually there’s a time frame and a support service.

I hate paying subscriptions, but these days everything is going that way. And since I was forced that way by Microsoft several years ago I have found it easier than the old CD days. Updates are automatic, I can log into any computer or phone in any location in the world & use it.


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The issue isn't about whether the navigation is any good or not, as long as the car can run third party software it isn't a problem, as I said they should not be able to make your access like bluetooth etc a subscription item as that will force you to have to use their navigation system.
> It is all well and good while Tesla is working well and leading the pack, but if Tesla finds itself in difficulty at a later date same as most companies do, the subscription and propriety software may turn to slush.
> It is just that we are so keen to give away our ability to chose what we want and so keen to accept what we are told these days, that who knows where all this ends.
> It is like free to air T.V, has become live and free and then will become pay as you go, the really weird bit is we the taxpayers funded the infrastructure, for the telco's and t.v networks to be able to bring about free t.v's demise.
> ...



They haven’t suggested any of the basic features of the car will be part of the subscription, they even include a basic internet connection for free, it’s only the premium internet access and  advanced self driving features which you used to have to pay $10k upfront for that are becoming a subscription.

It’s just a simple fact that the self driving function is costing many millions of $$$ to develop and will require consistent ongoing expense to maintain and continue to develop it.

But not everyone wants the self driving, so it’s sold as an extra which you can subscribe too, as I said they have been selling it for $10k up front, but I guess the market prefers a subscription.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> They haven’t suggested any of the basic features of the car will be part of the subscription, they even include a basic internet connection for free, it’s only the premium internet access and  advanced self driving features which you used to have to pay $10k upfront for that are becoming a subscription.



It will be interesting to see if all the manufacturers follow the BMW, Tesla model, I guess they will, unless it affects sales numbers.








						Tesla makes navigation a monthly subscription after first eight years
					

New Tesla orders no longer come with lifetime access to satellite navigation. Instead, it forms part of a monthly subscription eight years after taking delivery.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
Instead, the Standard Connectivity package – which includes satellite navigation, *Bluetooth, playback via a USB drive, and FM radio *– will expire after eight years from the date of delivery, and become an optional extra.

*Tesla does not say whether basic functions such as Bluetooth and FM radio will be deleted once the free Standard Connectivity subscription ends after eight years. *However, Tesla does say certain navigation functions will be removed.

*"Without Standard Connectivity, access to some connectivity features, including those that use cellular data or third-party licenses, may be changed or removed.*

The Standard Connectivity subscription also applies to used vehicles purchased (or transferred ownership) after 20 July 2022, available for the remainder of the eight years after they are "put into service... as a demonstrator or service vehicle", or "delivered as new", whichever comes first.


----------



## sptrawler (23 July 2022)

Hyundai to make a small city E.V for European market, I think a lot of makers will follow this trend, city commuters seem like the obvious big growth market for E.V's IMO.









						Hyundai plans a new small electric car for less than $20,000
					

Hyundai has confirmed that it joined the race to build a new small electric car for less than $20,000. However, it sounds like only European markets might get access to it. One of the biggest complaints about electric vehicles remains their prices. They are unattainable for most consumers, even...




					electrek.co


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It will be interesting to see if all the manufacturers follow the BMW, Tesla model, I guess they will, unless it affects sales numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Considering that the premium connectivity package is only $9 per month, I guess the standard will be pretty cheap, and if you get the first 8 years free you can’t really complain I guess.

But even if you decide to not pay the few dollars for your standard connectivity after 8 years, then I guess your car is just going to be the same as all the other cars in the world that don’t have internet connections.

Obviously as they said some navigation features will be disabled, for example live traffic up dates, weather info, supercharger availability etc all need the internet to work, but your standard navigation like every other car will work.


----------



## Value Collector (23 July 2022)

One other thing, you can actually hotspot your phone to your car, and then you get all internet functions, it’s not practical to do that on every drive, but it’s an option if you need to for some reason.


----------



## JohnDe (24 July 2022)

This morning my Tesla app informed me of a new update. The car was at home and I was at my business. I approved the download using my phone, and when I got home just after lunch, a quick shower and dressed ready for a country drive, I checked the update stats from the car’s screen before we left.










The battery was at 95%. We drove 150kms to a coastal town, checked out some realestate at about 4:30. Went to a local brewery and had a beer, and then drove home. 
I noticed that the Auto Pilot (basic self drive) felt more refined, I think the latest update has something to do with this.
Parked the car in the driveway with 90km range to spare. 
I’m pretty impressed.


----------



## Smurf1976 (24 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Tesla does not say whether basic functions such as Bluetooth and FM radio will be deleted once the free Standard Connectivity subscription ends after eight years.



Just my view but it would be pretty unreasonable and ridiculous to require ongoing payment to use an FM radio that's worth practically nothing relative to the overall cost of the car and which was almost certainly paid for in the original purchase anyway.

Features that actually require internet sure but not a radio, they've been standard equipment in cars for half a century.


----------



## Value Collector (24 July 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Just my view but it would be pretty unreasonable and ridiculous to require ongoing payment to use an FM radio that's worth practically nothing relative to the overall cost of the car and which was almost certainly paid for in the original purchase anyway.
> 
> Features that actually require internet sure but not a radio, they've been standard equipment in cars for half a century.



I am not actually sure how the radio is set up, but the only reason I could imagine that the radio would be affected is if it uses internet radio rather than tuning into regular broadcast radio.

I don’t actually listen to the radio in the car, because I have the premium connectivity included for free (early adopter perk) so I just use Spotify, but my Dad uses the radio in his car so next time I am in his car I will try and figure out whether it’s broadcast or internet based.


----------



## JohnDe (24 July 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Just my view but it would be pretty unreasonable and ridiculous to require ongoing payment to use an FM radio that's worth practically nothing relative to the overall cost of the car and which was almost certainly paid for in the original purchase anyway.
> 
> Features that actually require internet sure but not a radio, they've been standard equipment in cars for half a century.




I agree, and I hope that Tesla will continue to allow access to radio if an owner decides not to sign up to the subscription service. We’ll find out in 8 years.









						Why Tesla Will Add Internet-based SiriusXM streaming to Model 3, Model Y and Others
					

Model S and Model X cars have access to Sirius XM radio through Sirius XM-dedicated hardware. This is a premium feature that Tesla only offers in their top of




					www.notateslaapp.com


----------



## JohnDe (24 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The battery was at 95%. We drove 150kms to a coastal town, checked out some realestate at about 4:30. Went to a local brewery and had a beer, and then drove home.
> I noticed that the Auto Pilot (basic self drive) felt more refined, I think the latest




Correction, battery percentage was at *85%* when we left not 95%.


----------



## JohnDe (24 July 2022)

> Who will be the eco era’s Rockefellers?​
> On Boxing Day 2018, Elon Musk did not let the festivities keep him away from Twitter. Reminding his followers that they had only five days left to take advantage of a dollars 7,500 tax credit on electric vehicles, the Tesla founder added that “most importantly, every electric car, Tesla or otherwise, matters to the environment we all share. Every time someone chooses electric, the future gets a little bit brighter.”
> 
> It was a beguiling message: that Tesla owners could enjoy all the comfort and convenience of car ownership without the environmental guilt. And for the most part it was true. Electric cars are far better for the environment, on the whole. As we generate more of our electricity from renewable sources, and as we make more of our steel with hydrogen rather than coal, the environmental case for electric cars will only strengthen.
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (24 July 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I agree, and I hope that Tesla will continue to allow access to radio if an owner decides not to sign up to the subscription service. We’ll find out in 8 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bit of a non event seeing as we cannot get SirusXM in Australia. (or Panda for that matter.)
When I was flying in the USA, you could get real time weather alerts and weather radar on t he SiriusXM network.
I was so impressed with its function, I thought it would be good to have a subscription here in Oz.
Alas, its blocked in countries outside North America.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2022)

Don't know if this should be in another thread, coz it aint electric cars, but electric airplanes are going to be a reality soon.









						Rex says it will retrofit planes with electric-propulsion engines, saying it's the future of air travel.
					

The regional airline has unveiled its plan to replace some of its fleet's jet engines with electric-propulsion engines. Trial flights are to start in 2024.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2022)

I think Mick brought it up a few pages back. But it does sound like REX is trying to get ahead of the curve.



mullokintyre said:


> Things are moving along in the  Electric Aircraft sphere.
> From The evil Murdoch Empire
> 
> The short haul SAAB 340's will need to be upgraded some time in the future.
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I think Mick brought it up a few pages back. But it does sound like REX is trying to get ahead of the curve.




Apologies to Mick, but the evil Murdoch empire is paywalled.


----------



## qldfrog (28 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Don't know if this should be in another thread, coz it aint electric cars, but electric airplanes are going to be a reality soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Remember the góod old time it was forbidden to carry batteries bigger than a few watts in airplanes...
Just saying🙄


----------



## qldfrog (28 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Remember the góod old time it was forbidden to carry batteries bigger than a few watts in airplanes...
> Just saying🙄



I forecast a few coming headlines: 
Civil residential building hit by flamming missile ( Ukraine style) or if technology advances to save planes:
 dropped burning airplane battery explode on playground,..
I see no way out with current battery technology


----------



## JohnDe (28 July 2022)

BYD Atto 3 does not have a safety rating, yet. "_The company says the Atto 3 is currently undergoing safety testing in Europe by Euro NCAP, which will allow it to get an ANCAP rating._"



> *BYD Atto 3 electric SUV approved for sale in Australia*
> _The Australian Government has granted approval for the BYD Atto 3 EV to be sold here ahead of deliveries beginning in August._
> 
> The BYD Atto 3 has been approved for sale in Australia just weeks before deliveries are set to begin.
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (28 July 2022)

"_Slow EV uptake a chance to get it right_", yes that makes sense. "_technical issues such as the standardisation and interoperability of smart charging technology, the ability for the remote management of batteries connected to the grid, and pricing issues_"



> Slow EV uptake a chance to get it right: Energy Security Board​Australia’s slow adoption of electric vehicles is an opportunity to learn from other countries about how best to incorporate them into the electricity grid, the Energy Security Board says.
> 
> The ESB – a body including the heads of the Australian Energy Market Operator, the Australian Energy Regulator and the Australian Energy Market Commission – was late last year tasked with coming up with a plan on the rollout of EVs and their batteries.
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I forecast a few coming headlines:
> Civil residential building hit by flamming missile ( Ukraine style) or if technology advances to save planes:
> dropped burning airplane battery explode on playground,..
> I see no way out with current battery technology




Do Lithium batteries still catch fire these days ?


----------



## qldfrog (28 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Do Lithium batteries still catch fire these days ?



Ohh sxxt yes...electric buses all over, and Tesla 
When a aviation fuel plane has issues, dump fuel..never reach the surface , and stop the fire, no such thing with lithium batteries..but hey, i am an engineer, solutions before rhetorics so who cares 😊


----------



## mullokintyre (28 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Do Lithium batteries still catch fire these days ?



Technically, they don't catch fire, they have a runaway thermal reaction that generates enormous heat.
A fire needs oxygen to  complete the reaction, whereas a runaway Lithium battery does not.
Not withstanding that , there will always be instances of runaway thermal reaction, at least while Darwins Theory of natural selection still holds.
People will do dumb things with and to lithium batteries, and there will be technical faults.
Just like ICE engined cars catch fire, and Lead Acid batteries will on the odd occasion, swell up and blow apart.
mick


----------



## JohnDe (28 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Technically, they don't catch fire, they have a runaway thermal reaction that generates enormous heat.
> A fire needs oxygen to  complete the reaction, whereas a runaway Lithium battery does not.
> Not withstanding that , there will always be instances of runaway thermal reaction, at least while Darwins Theory of natural selection still holds.
> People will do dumb things with and to lithium batteries, and there will be technical faults.
> ...




And lithium batteries are already well dispersed on all planes.









> *Lithium batteries: safe to fly?*
> 
> Today, Lithium batteries play a barely visible, yet essential role in both our daily life and aviation alike. Manufactured and handled correctly, Lithium batteries are safe. But production failures, mishandling, or not being aware of their specific characteristics can have serious repercussions.
> 
> ...


----------



## qldfrog (28 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Technically, they don't catch fire, they have a runaway thermal reaction that generates enormous heat.
> A fire needs oxygen to  complete the reaction, whereas a runaway Lithium battery does not.
> Not withstanding that , there will always be instances of runaway thermal reaction, at least while Darwins Theory of natural selection still holds.
> People will do dumb things with and to lithium batteries, and there will be technical faults.
> ...



I will strongly disagree on putting it as same same but no point arguying, just look at what will happen in the coming years.As for electric planes, i hope not to have to use them.
Sadly, it seems my son might have to so I will have to take a religion and pray


----------



## basilio (28 July 2022)

This development by Siemans seems to simplify and cheapen home charging costs for EV Owners


Siemens’ new home EV charger adapter ends need for electrical panel upgrades​ 
                                Michelle Lewis                             




0 

Siemens and Philadelphia-based ConnectDER have partnered to debut a groundbreaking simple home EV charger connector. Previously, homeowners who wanted to install EV chargers might have had to spend thousands of dollars to modify their home’s electrical panel. This new proprietary plug-in adapter will eliminate that cost and allow installation and connection in minutes.









						Siemens' new home EV charger adapter ends need for electrical panel upgrades
					

Siemens' game-changing EV charger adapter can end costly electrical panel upgrades and enable home chargers to be connected in minutes.




					electrek.co


----------



## basilio (28 July 2022)

Tesla took a (rightful) bollocking for this piece of creative accounting.  There is a downside risk to having your car micro managed by the company that stands to profit from any changes/charges it adds to the account.

It is a very interesting story. Well worth the read for Tesla owners IMV.

Tesla locks 80 miles of customer’s battery range for $4,500 ransom​ 

                                Fred Lambert                             

                            - Jul. 26th 2022 2:59 pm PT                                



Tesla tried to force a customer to pay $4,500 ransom over 80 miles of range that the company software-locked in his battery pack. The automaker only started to walk back on the strategy to squeeze $4,500 out of its customers after an uproar on social media.

Tesla used to sell Model S vehicles with software-locked battery packs. For example,_ Electrek_‘s Seth Weintraub’s first Tesla was a Model S 40, which was actually a Model S with a 60 kWh battery pack software-locked at 40 kWh of capacity.

This was a way to offer different range options without having to make production more complicated with different battery pack sizes.

Later, Tesla started to offer owners of those software-locked vehicles the option to unlock the capacity for an additional cost. Tesla phased out the practice over the years, but the company still used software-locked battery packs when doing warranty replacements of battery packs of certain capacities that it doesn’t produce anymore.

This has created a situation for a customer that Tesla has completely mishandled.









						Tesla locks 80 miles of customer’s battery range for $4,500 ransom
					

Tesla tried to force a customer to pay $4,500 ransom over 80 miles of range that the company software-locked in his battery pack. The automaker only started to walk back on the strategy to squeeze $4,500 out of its customers after an uproar on social media. Tesla used to sell Model S vehicles...




					electrek.co


----------



## JohnDe (28 July 2022)

Wow, we need this in Australia.



> These Supercharger Cubes Provide The Perfect Amenities For Rural Electric Car Charging Points!​What's Better Than An Automatic Pizza Vending Machine? Kyle is in Germany checking out a new unmanned "cube" that can be installed at charging points around the world. BK Group installed this cube as the first of many to come at Supercharging locations around Europe.


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2022)

basilio said:


> Tesla took a (rightful) bollocking for this piece of creative accounting.  There is a downside risk to having your car micro managed by the company that stands to profit from any changes/charges it adds to the account.
> 
> It is a very interesting story. Well worth the read for Tesla owners IMV.
> 
> ...



It is one of the reasons I have ordered a pretty basic E.V, as I hope to give it to the daughter in 5-7 years, when her current car will be ready for the wreckers, with any luck the self contained stand alone basic system in the Kona will be fine for what driving she does approx 3,000km/annum


----------



## SirRumpole (28 July 2022)

basilio said:


> Tesla took a (rightful) bollocking for this piece of creative accounting.  There is a downside risk to having your car micro managed by the company that stands to profit from any changes/charges it adds to the account.
> 
> It is a very interesting story. Well worth the read for Tesla owners IMV.
> 
> ...




As I said before, this sort of thing is making me think twice about buying a Tesla or any vehicle with software locked 'features'.

Why should we trust them ?

It should be illegal.


----------



## Boggo (28 July 2022)

Subscription services are becoming the new norm. Pay annual fee for ability to use CarPlay etc on the way.

The mob that came second in the last world war are already onto it.








						BMW rolls out heated seat, steering wheel subscriptions – UPDATE: Not in Australia yet
					

BMW will now sell you the heated seats in your car as a monthly subscription, for a little more than a high-resolution Stan or Netflix subscription. 12




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> As I said before, this sort of thing is making me think twice about buying a Tesla or any vehicle with software locked 'features'.
> 
> Why should we trust them ?
> 
> It should be illegal.



It is one down side of over the air software upgradability IMO, it is just a matter of re writing a bit of code and your car changes, that can be good and that can be bad.
If the subscription model becomes the norm, it will be very easy to retro install it to wifi compatible software architecture, not all manufacturers are using that. Yet


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2022)

basilio said:


> This development by Siemans seems to simplify and cheapen home charging costs for EV Owners
> 
> 
> Siemens’ new home EV charger adapter ends need for electrical panel upgrades​
> ...



I don't think those style of meters will be around for much longer Bas.


----------



## basilio (28 July 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't think those style of meters will be around for much longer Bas.



The smart meters are of course different.  But I would have thought the technology they were  developing was more to do with the electrical wiring. So hopefully that is still the same and  capable of being adapted with the new "plug".


----------



## sptrawler (28 July 2022)

basilio said:


> The smart meters are of course different.  But I would have thought the technology they were  developing was more to do with the electrical wiring. So hopefully that is still the same and  capable of being adapted with the new "plug".



Yes I'm not sure it is focused on our domestic supplies, ours are normally 240v 60A single phase mains so a 7KW home charger isn't a problem, in the U.S it is 110v domestic supply so a 7KW single phase charger requires an upgrade to 240v from my understanding.

From the article:
_He also added that the adapters are expected to be available by first quarter 2023 and will be distributed through a variety of channels, such as EV charger installers, electricians, and utilities.

Nearly half of US home electrical panels previously would have needed upgrades to allow the installation of a typical Level 2 charger, usually a 7-11kW device requiring 40-60 Amps on a 240V line_.


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Do Lithium batteries still catch fire these days ?





SirRumpole said:


> Do Lithium batteries still catch fire these days ?



Yes, but less often than petrol. 

Unfortunately it seems to be in the nature of the universe that when ever we figure out a way to store large amounts of energy, sometimes accidental rapid dissipation of that energy occurs hahaha.


----------



## moXJO (28 July 2022)

Can you hack Tesla's software?


----------



## Value Collector (28 July 2022)

moXJO said:


> Can you hack Tesla's software?



I haven’t seen anything where a Tesla has been hacked directly, but there is third party apps some people download on their phones which you can gives access to your Tesla. A 19 year old figured out a way to hack one of these third party apps and it allowed him to access some of the cars features like winding down windows, turning on radio etc.

These third party apps can not access things like steering or any other driving functions though, but may allow a nuisance hacker to turn your heated seat on.

Also apparently the hack only worked on android phones, if you used an IPhone he couldn’t hack you.

https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/27/lets-make-the-teen-tesla-hack-a-teachable-moment/amp/


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2022)

Tesla offered Hackers $1,000,000 and a free car if they could hack into a Tesla Model 3, seems like a very interesting way to test your security.

https://www.livemint.com/auto-news/...ne-can-hijack-model-3/amp-11578889743038.html


----------



## qldfrog (29 July 2022)

I would suggest that by design any top key US agency has an open door, and can at the very least stop a Tesla..if not worse.
Moreover it is a massive honeypot target, so as more Teslas got sold,more incentives to hack orRansomware..
So not a matter of if but a matter of when..
could be directly hacking the software or hacking a network router to load a bogus update..you name it.
 if you can hack a computer,you can hack a Tesla .
the only way to make it safe would be to disconnect it from networks..but then no auto update,etc.
I do not consider physically connecting to the car as hacking,more breaking in and that's possible,but not worse on ev than cutting the brake or fuel line on ice..


----------



## moXJO (29 July 2022)

I meant jailbreaking your Tesla to be able to use all the extra features. I heard something about some hackers accessing the AWD features.


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2022)

moXJO said:


> I meant jailbreaking your Tesla to be able to use all the extra features. I heard something about some hackers accessing the AWD features.



Yep, there are people that have “hacked” their cars to unlock more battery capacity and more acceleration, apparently Tesla knows if you have done it though.


----------



## SirRumpole (29 July 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, there are people that have “hacked” their cars to unlock more battery capacity and more acceleration, apparently Tesla knows if you have done it though.




What are they going to do then ?

Set your car on fire ?


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> What are they going to do then ?
> 
> Set your car on fire ?



I’m not sure, probably something boring like cancel your warranty. but here is an article about it.

The Tesla is software limited to 280km/hour, but the guy who hacked his got it to 345km/hour. I don’t want to go that fast unless I am in an aircraft haha

https://mashable.com/article/tesla-model-s-speed-record


----------



## mullokintyre (29 July 2022)

Another factor to consider when using EV Chargers.


Mick


----------



## Value Collector (29 July 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Another factor to consider when using EV Chargers.
> View attachment 144695
> 
> Mick




Yep, but that’s the same for petrol stations too, hahaha this one is in Lismore. Petrol bowsers still have electricity running through them as well as flammable fuel.


----------



## JohnDe (31 July 2022)

Future braking systems on EVs (first 2.5 minutes is an explanation of previous braking systems, after that it the new system) -


----------



## sptrawler (1 August 2022)

An article on the Ford F-150 lightning, with interior pics, nice looking piece of gear, should be popular in Australia.









						Ford F-150 Lightning electric pick-up earns its stripes in the US
					

Cue jokes about electric police cars needing long extension cords or running flat during a pursuit. Now that’s out of the way, here’s why this Ford F-150




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (1 August 2022)

Unfortunately, it looks like it won't be coming to oz any time soon.
Had my nephew and his wife up for the weekend.
he works at ford development.
Told me the current thinking is that the Yanks are working on an EV truck the size of the current Ranger, which is likely to be the one they bring in to OZ in RHD format.
He said that  the demand for the Lightning in the USA is so large, that they will struggle to fill orders for the next ten years.
Ford have already upped the production by 100%, to go any further needs them to either
 (a) build another entirely new plant, or
(b)   turn an existing ICE production plant into an other Lightning production factory.
Both of those scenarios require both lotsa time and lots money.
Its entirely possible that the only way we see any Lightnings F150's here in OZ is by the likes of Walkinshaws or one of the other FPV converters doing it as one off's.
It would cost big bickies.
Same goes for the Rivian, the  New GMC  EV Silverado or the  EV Hummer
Mick


----------



## basilio (3 August 2022)

A story on new, cheap,  full function self charging electric car. Well worth checking out.
The Sono Sion.


----------



## JohnDe (4 August 2022)

New battery - 



> Tesla Model Y first in line for CATL's superior M3P phosphate battery with longer range​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (5 August 2022)

Hyundai Ionic 6 could be a rival for Tesla Model 3.









						IONIQ 6 | Electric cars | Hyundai Australia
					

Hyundai Australia official site; find out about Hyundai makes and models, warranties, dealers, current offers, events, and fleet purchases and leasing.




					www.hyundai.com
				




You can sit through a bit of a rant or go to the 18 minute mark for a teaser on the Ionic6.


----------



## sptrawler (5 August 2022)

As we've said in the past, it really doesn't matter what Australia does regards emissions or banning cars, the major car makers are not going to keep making cars just for us.
If the E.U bans ICE cars, or makes emission standards too hard to attain, the automakers will just stop making them. So E.V's will be the only choice anyway, the only options will be wait time, from the various manufacturers as demand exceeds production capacity.









						Next-generation Volkswagen Golf in doubt – report
					

The costs and timing of new emissions regulations may kill plans for a next-generation Volkswagen Golf, due in 2027. There may not be another Volkswagen




					www.drive.com.au
				



There may not be another *Volkswagen Golf *– one of Europe’s best-selling cars – if new emissions regulations prove too expensive to meet, too soon.
Speaking to German publication _Welt_, new Volkswagen CEO Thomas Schafer said a decision will be made on whether to develop a ninth-generation Golf within the next 12 months.
“We will have to see whether it is worth developing a new vehicle that does not last the full seven or eight years [before emissions regulations force a switch to electric power],” said Schafer.


----------



## mullokintyre (5 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Hyundai Ionic 6 could be a rival for Tesla Model 3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hyundai will not takeover the Tesla until they stop pissing off their customers and potential customers.
The ridiculous online ordering system creates that sees people competing to complete the order form before all the car s are sold  discriminates against  people with slow or even nonexistent internet access.
They also discriminate against people outside the capital cities.
You have to put your  Postcode in when you aorder, so the clever eople outside of the main cities lied about their postcode.
Shocked that they had to deliver cars to people who did not live close to the delerships, Hyundai have now demanded that potential buyers put in the drivers license as well as their post code.
If the drivers license and the post code entered do not match, the order is rejected.
​From The DrivenIO


> Regional drivers unhappy with Ioniq 5 sales process​The Driven has heard from several readers unhappy with the sales process, which requires drivers to enter their residential postcode before ordering. They say that to complete the order process, their driver’s licence address must now match the delivery address.
> 
> As The Driven reported in May, some drivers said they had fudged details in earlier “drops” to get around the location restrictions.
> 
> ...



That’s good news, but it won’t be soon enough for some. “Screw you guys, I’ll build my own electric car,” joked one reader in a note to The Driven.

Mick


----------



## qldfrog (5 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As we've said in the past, it really doesn't matter what Australia does regards emissions or banning cars, the major car makers are not going to keep making cars just for us.
> If the E.U bans ICE cars, or makes emission standards too hard to attain, the automakers will just stop making them. So E.V's will be the only choice anyway, the only options will be wait time, from the various manufacturers as demand exceeds production capacity.
> 
> 
> ...



All that CO2 CC BS could quickly go down in flame, once people are starving, wo water and power and unemployed.
And enraged once they discover they have been lied to the teeth.
Look at today's released news about CC figures being actially a quarter of claimed..but you will not see that in their ABC which is probably already preparing a narrative compliant "fact checker "
Most of people know now they have been played with covid and jabs, so truth in "official science" is gone.
Hard to accept being such fools for the masses but with time, and no food no money, things go fast 
And the argument for ev is very light at best in our country
We are not a 3m Islandish popukarion 100% hydro with trips below 100km


----------



## JohnDe (6 August 2022)

Wife & I having our own long weekend away, 246km to the coast battling winds & rains a total charge cost of $20.


----------



## sptrawler (6 August 2022)

Wife and I just did a trip down to Albany, shocking weather, filled up and reset the odo, 636klm used 60 litres cost $115.
But it is a Jeep Grand Cherokee which is big and heavy. Lol


----------



## qldfrog (7 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Wife and I just did a trip down to Albany, shocking weather, filled up and reset the odo, 636klm used 60 litres cost $115.
> But it is a Jeep Grand Cherokee which is big and heavy. Lol



Which is less than what a sparky will charge you to come and look at your fuse box or quote a switch change.
More relevant, you spent in fuel one lettuce an hour.
Quite a bargain 😁
I can not help smiling/ crying that all the EV narrative was initially pushed by the EU aka Germany which is now going back to the dark ages with a collapsing economy purely based on that ideology.
Our problem will not be the absence of ICE car offers, more our own..or globalist ..laws forbidding us to import/purchase them from India China.
Anyway looking forward to hearing what happens with BYD and MG offers.
so that we can all be ready to stop driving when the missiles stop over Taipei, not just past.
IMHO, it was much easier to bomb poor Irak to get oil that it will be with China for EV batteries, and cars,and electronics, and electrical network components...
Or even Russia for gas...ask Germany!!!


----------



## JohnDe (7 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Wife and I just did a trip down to Albany, shocking weather, filled up and reset the odo, 636klm used 60 litres cost $115.
> But it is a Jeep Grand Cherokee which is big and heavy. Lol




How much will the next service cost? Oil & filters.


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> How much will the next service cost? Oil & filters.



Hopefully nothing, because by then I'm ever hopeful the electric Kona long range will have arrived.


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## SirRumpole (7 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Hopefully nothing, because by then I'm ever hopeful the electric Kona long range will have arrived.




How long have you been waiting ?


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> How long have you been waiting ?



March 1st.


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## SirRumpole (7 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> March 1st.



First 6 months nearly gone, only 2 to go .


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## qldfrog (7 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Hopefully nothing, because by then I'm ever hopeful the electric Kona long range will have arrived.



I hope by then you will have received your first EV😁
Any expected delivery date?


----------



## sptrawler (7 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I hope by then you will have received your first EV😁
> Any expected delivery date?



No just vague ETA's that move out, as the months pass.


----------



## Value Collector (7 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Hyundai will not takeover the Tesla until they stop pissing off their customers and potential customers.
> The ridiculous online ordering system creates that sees people competing to complete the order form before all the car s are sold  discriminates against  people with slow or even nonexistent internet access.
> They also discriminate against people outside the capital cities.
> You have to put your  Postcode in when you aorder, so the clever eople outside of the main cities lied about their postcode.
> ...



They should just do what Tesla did with the Model 3 and just let unlimited orders to be placed.

I think some of the guys here will remember me waiting about 2.5 years for my model 3 after I put down the deposit, I think there was about 400,000 orders in front of me.

I think as long as you have to place a $1000 deposit so they know the order is real, but the person can cancel and refund the deposit at any time they should just let unlimited orders go through.

Tesla held over  $400 Million in deposits on the model three, which in part helped pay to build the factory, capitalism at its best IMO.


----------



## JohnDe (7 August 2022)

BMW’s Tesla competitor - 



> BMW i4 M50 review: It’s the European answer to Tesla I expected to arrive years ago​
> It’s important not to underestimate how difficult a task is – reinventing the wheel or finding a way to remove a teenager from a smartphone would be comparable in this case – before we get overly critical about the end result.
> BMW’s i4 could well be the first car to give the long-held hegemony of Tesla’s Model 3 a good shake by producing a properly Germanic, attractive and sporty four-door EV sedan that’s involving and exciting to drive. The problem is that BMW might, arguably, have stuffed up the whole thing by making its otherwise wonderful electric vehicle sound like a remix of the Close Encounters of the Third Kind soundtrack.
> 
> ...


----------



## moXJO (7 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> BMW’s Tesla competitor -



Always found that BMW's and mercs were full of problems and expensive to service/fix.


----------



## JohnDe (8 August 2022)

Fully charged, and preparing to head on home today.

Preconditioning the battery in cold weather improves efficiency.


----------



## sptrawler (9 August 2022)

China's MG, cranking up the competition.








						2023 MG 4 electric car price revealed in the UK, hints at $40,000 in Australia
					

Due in Australian showrooms next year, the MG 4 could become the cheapest electric car on sale locally with a drive-away price of $40,500.




					www.drive.com.au
				







Chinese car maker MG has released pricing for its upcoming *MG 4 electric hatch* in the UK, giving Australian buyers an indication of how much they can expect to pay when it arrives in local showrooms next year.
Based on calculations by _Drive_ – using UK prices as a guide – the basic MG 4 could go on sale from $40,500 drive-away, although it could be renamed from the SE Standard Range grade to Excite in an attempt to align it with MG’s Australian naming structure.
It would make the MG 4 Australia’s cheapest electric car, undercutting the BYD Atto 3’s $44,381 drive-away price by almost $3900.

Most Australian states and territories offer financial incentives for electric cars, although Western Australia’s generous $3500 rebate could reduce the MG 4’s drive-away cost to $37,000.
Two additional variants of the MG 4 are available in the UK, with the SE Long Range starting from about $44,500 drive-away based on UK pricing.
The top-of-the-range MG 4 Trophy Long Range could be priced from $49,200 drive-away, if UK pricing is a guide.


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## qldfrog (9 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> China's MG, cranking up the competition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As long as the AUD holds its value..and China is not blockading us


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## sptrawler (9 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> As long as the AUD holds its value..and China is not blockading us



I got my VIN number to day so, at least I might be able to get and use the car, before the power stations are hit with a missile.🤣
I've down loaded a great app, learn Mandarin at you own pace, as I always say allow for the worst.


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## qldfrog (9 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I got my VIN number to day so, at least I might be able to get and use the car, before the power stations are hit with a missile.🤣
> I've down loaded a great app, learn Mandarin at you own pace, as I always say allow for the worst.



I am one step ahead...lived there for 3 y ..so really scared
I supposedly registered with BYD to be in their mailing list but nothing for the last month...


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## sptrawler (9 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I am one step ahead...lived there for 3 y ..so really scared
> I supposedly registered with BYD to be in their mailing list but nothing for the last month...



Yes if push comes to shove, I think Taiwan will go on the back burner, China will say "in for a penny, may as well be in for a pound".

But I think I will still get to enjoy the E.V for a while before we get to that, as they say "you can't take it with you", young people will say of course not an E.V wont fit in the plane. 🤣


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## Value Collector (9 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes if push comes to shove, I think Taiwan will go on the back burner, China will say "in for a penny, may as well be in for a pound".
> 
> But I think I will still get to enjoy the E.V for a while before we get to that, as they say "you can't take it with you", young people will say of course not an E.V wont fit in the plane. 🤣



I found this video last night, it’s very interesting.

Opened my eyes a bit more into the complexity of the situation, kinda made me that that perhaps the situation would be better if the USA stayed out of it.


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## Smurf1976 (9 August 2022)

On Sunday my bank account worked fine.

On Monday I logged in but couldn't access credit card transactions. No reason given, just not working.

Today, Tuesday, it works fine again.

_That_ is why I'm not keen on the idea of over the air software updates for EV's or indeed any car. No offense to anyone personally, but I've encountered far too many examples where "IT people" clearly failed to properly test before implementation. 

It costs serious time and $ to properly test, it's months and serious $ millions to do it properly, but all too often shortcuts are taken with the intent that any problems later discovered will be "patched". That's bad enough if it's a bank but no way am I enthusiastic about that approach with a car.

 I accept that Tesla or others may well be doing proper testing but having seen more than a few instances of shortcuts being taken, it's a "just trust me" statement from a stranger that does make me cautious not about EV's but about that aspect.


----------



## Value Collector (9 August 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> On Sunday my bank account worked fine.
> 
> On Monday I logged in but couldn't access credit card transactions. No reason given, just not working.
> 
> ...



What about updates that are designed to make the car safer? It’s hard to imagine that any car that rolls of the assembly line will have perfect software that never needs updating.

Even something as simply as the automatic window wipers in my car were less than perfect on day one, but after a few updates they work great, I would have hated to be stuck with the original window wiper software that only recognised a limited about of rain patterns.


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## sptrawler (9 August 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> On Sunday my bank account worked fine.
> 
> On Monday I logged in but couldn't access credit card transactions. No reason given, just not working.
> 
> ...



The other issue is, as more models, more complexity, more operating systems, more software engineers, more turnover of personel. We have seen it before in different industries, havent we.


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## JohnDe (9 August 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> On Sunday my bank account worked fine.
> 
> On Monday I logged in but couldn't access credit card transactions. No reason given, just not working.
> 
> ...




Mobile phones have been using over the air software updates OTA for a decade. I’ve lost count of how many iPhones I have had and how many OTA updates they have had, but I do remember that not one of my iPhones was turned into a brick or failed to do its primary job. Each OTA has ensured that the device can keep up with new protocols and security.

My Tesla M3 has the option of three upgrades, one increases performance and the other two are enhancements to AP & FSD, all possible by OTA software upgrades, at a cost of course.





__





						Over-the-air programming - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


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## sptrawler (9 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> What about updates that are designed to make the car safer? It’s hard to imagine that any car that rolls of the assembly line will have perfect software that never needs updating.
> 
> Even something as simply as the automatic window wipers in my car were less than perfect on day one, but after a few updates they work great, I would have hated to be stuck with the original window wiper software that only recognised a limited about of rain patterns.






JohnDe said:


> Mobile phones have been using over the air software updates OTA for a decade. I’ve lost count of how many iPhones I have had and how many OTA updates they have had, but I do remember that not one of my iPhones was turned into a brick or failed to do its primary job. Each OTA has ensured that the device can keep up with new protocols and security.
> 
> My Tesla M3 has the option of three upgrades, one increases performance and the other two are enhancements to AP & FSD, all possible by OTA software upgrades, at a cost of course.
> 
> ...



Anything new is scary, in 10 years time it will be mainstream, at the moment memories of software failures are too recent IMO. In a lot of cases over the air from the manufacturer, may actually be safer and done more correctly than by some young bloke with a face full of pimples in the workshop.
The only good thing with the guy in the workshop doing it, he has to test drive it.🤣
Which reminds me of that joke: 
When I die I want to go like my grandfather did, in his sleep, not screaming like everyone else in the car.


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## Smurf1976 (10 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> What about updates that are designed to make the car safer? It’s hard to imagine that any car that rolls of the assembly line will have perfect software that never needs updating.



My concern is simply about proper testing.

Proper testing of software is seriously expensive and time consuming and I'm aware of too many instances where it hasn't been done properly and a fault has been found. No big deal if it's a gaming console, very big deal if it involves some sort of physical incident in the real world because of that failure.

I've absolutely no doubt that it can be done properly. Develop the software, comprehensively test it, run it on a simulated system, then release it for real world use.

The problem with remote updates however is more a cultural one. If fixing a problem can be done quietly in the middle of the night without telling the public, stock exchange or even senior management then that does open the door to poor practices.

It'll be done, I've zero doubt about that, but there are dangers when fixing problems becomes cheap and easy - it encourages a lessening of efforts to avoid them in the first place.


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## qldfrog (10 August 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> On Sunday my bank account worked fine.
> 
> On Monday I logged in but couldn't access credit card transactions. No reason given, just not working.
> 
> ...



I could add that as a small market, isolated,we are a really good candidate so updates can be tested here first, then íf working, pushed elsewhere.😁🔪


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## qldfrog (10 August 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> My concern is simply about proper testing.
> 
> Proper testing of software is seriously expensive and time consuming and I'm aware of too many instances where it hasn't been done properly and a fault has been found. No big deal if it's a gaming console, very big deal if it involves some sort of physical incident in the real world because of that failure.
> 
> ...



The key is owner control,even with Windows systems.
You need to be able to veto upgrades etc.
That windows upgrades might disable your custom ATO driver, in the same way as the Tesla one might forget the added module "hopping kangoroo avoidance system".
No one will know the difference.. for a while
But the usual attitude is
Trust us manufacturers, we know better....


----------



## JohnDe (10 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I found this video last night, it’s very interesting.
> 
> Opened my eyes a bit more into the complexity of the situation, kinda made me that that perhaps the situation would be better if the USA stayed out of it.






> Value Collector:
> 
> I found this video last night, it’s very interesting.
> 
> Opened my eyes a bit more into the complexity of the situation, kinda made me that that perhaps the situation would be better if the USA stayed out of it.





Everyone is allowed an opinion, unless you're involved with a dictatorship or communist controlled.



> *Asian Boss accused of seeking pro-KMT viewpoints for Taiwan street interviews*
> Channel featured Taiwanese YouTuber known for pro-KMT stance
> 
> TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — The YouTube channel Asian Boss has drawn criticism for allegedly "pre-screening" interviewees for those with Kuomintang (KMT) party viewpoints and for featuring a pro-KMT YouTuber in a pre-planned "street interview."
> ...





​


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## sptrawler (10 August 2022)

As we said earlier in this thread, the legacy car manufacturers are gutting out the cheap and cheerful models, to bring the perceived cost difference between ICE and E.V's closer, now we are seeing the words cheap applied to E.V's. Life is about diversion and deception, ' keepa dancing Maria' ala the Paul Hogan Show.🤣 
It wasn't long ago that you could drive a Mitsubishi Mirage away for $13,000, times and perceptions move on.









						The race for Australia's cheapest electric car in 2023
					

Five new electric cars – including four from China – are due in Australian showrooms within 12 months, each vying to be the country's cheapest. The




					www.drive.com.au
				




*The 'affordable' electric-car market in Australia is set for a major expansion* next year, with the arrival of a range of five new contenders in the next 12 months expected to cost in the region of $45,000.
Five new electric cars – four from China, and one from Europe – are due in Australia between this month and the middle of next year, with expected price tags between $35,000 and $50,000.
The first of Australia's new 'affordable' electric cars is due this month (BYD Atto 3) – with the MG 4 and Ora Good Cat due to follow early next year, the BYD Dolphin/Atto 2 between March and mid-year (though orders are due to open this year), and the Fiat sometime in 2023.


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## Smurf1976 (11 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> The key is owner control,even with Windows systems.
> You need to be able to veto upgrades etc.
> That windows upgrades might disable your custom ATO driver, in the same way as the Tesla one might forget the added module "hopping kangoroo avoidance system".
> No one will know the difference.. for a while
> ...



My comment turned out to be, well, alarmingly timed.....

At 11:35am on Wednesday (eastern states time) AEMO implemented a change to NEMDE (National Electricity Market Dispatch Engine) which in simple terms is the software controlling the physical dispatch of power generation into grid.

Anyone like to guess what happened?

Well it resulted in about 16% of all generation running at 11:35 promptly shutting down with impacts across all 5 NEM states. It being the wind and solar farms which were affected.






> 100839MARKET SYSTEMS10/08/2022 01:11:35 PM
> FAILURE AFFECTING MARKET DISPATCH AND PRICING​FAILURE AFFECTING MARKET DISPATCH AND PRICING
> 
> Today from trading interval 1135 hrs, AEMO observed a large change in FCAS requirements for all fast and slow contingency ancillary services. This also resulted in violation of those FCAS constraints and market price caps for those services in all regions and for energy in Tasmania.
> ...



Emphasis in orange is mine.

Noting that it's pure coincidence that the example I've used here is an electrical one. It would be equally relevant if it were anything else.

I've nothing against those who code software for a living, it's nothing personal, and nor is my example intended as criticism of AEMO. It's just an example, it could've been any industry anywhere.

It's just a reality that I've personally seen a few too many real world near misses caused by software flaws to be comfortable with the idea that someone's remotely tinkering with a car that I'm driving, potentially whilst I'm driving it.


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## qldfrog (11 August 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> My comment turned out to be, well, alarmingly timed.....
> 
> At 11:35am on Wednesday (eastern states time) AEMO implemented a change to NEMDE (National Electricity Market Dispatch Engine) which in simple terms is the software controlling the physical dispatch of power generation into grid.
> 
> ...



I have spent my career in software: applying a patch at 11am midweek is absolutely crazy.
Consider timing bloody amateurs:
Not done start of day so less time to fix before end of day..and we still work in 8 to 5..if that team does not, the teams for other potentially impacted components do or the right contacts you need to call.. 
not a 17y old in Bangalore who has no clues as to what your company does except a 2 liners poping on the screen when you call support.
Even worse: in energy industry, peak solar is around lunchtime...
Unless the monday patch just crashed during and due to peak? We will never know
Anyway, same as comsec  doing patching on friday night..you mean what? Trading on asx is closed so what is your problem?
Nyse? What's that?
Etc etc.the timing of patching / upgrades is a great revelator of incompetence in the IT world 
I had to fight quite a few battles on  behalf of my clients here in the mines...


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## qldfrog (11 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I have spent my career in software: applying a patch at 11am midweek is absolutely crazy.
> Consider timing bloody amateurs:
> Not done start of day so less time to fix before end of day..and we still work in 8 to 5..if that team does not, the teams for other potentially impacted components do or the right contacts you need to call..
> not a 17y old in Bangalore who has no clues as to what your company does except a 2 liners poping on the screen when you call support.
> ...



All that to say..no thanks, i want to be in control of at least the timing of upgrades


----------



## JohnDe (11 August 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> My comment turned out to be, well, alarmingly timed.....
> 
> At 11:35am on Wednesday (eastern states time) AEMO implemented a change to NEMDE (National Electricity Market Dispatch Engine) which in simple terms is the software controlling the physical dispatch of power generation into grid.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure how your previous comment about EV OTA updates has anything to do with AEMO.

An update for an EV is not compulsory to accept and download. Taking Tesla as an example, there are millions of their models on the road and hundreds of thousands of Beta drivers. Some updates are developed to fix a problem, some to improve efficiency, safety and security. Before an update is sent out to the masses it is tested inhouse and then by the Beta drivers. Yes things can sometimes go wrong, but the chances are extremely low, and there are back up systems in place.

AEMO does not have Beta testers or the budget to employ a team of software engineers as large as Tesla's.

Don't worry too much about OTA updates, it has been around for years. If you don't trust it no one is making you change. Keep the Nokia phone and the pre-2022 vehicle, both will not be capable of OTA updates.

In 2004 I purchased a new Ford Territory, a great car but with some flaws. One issue required me to book the car in and leave it for the day so that the dealer could install software update for a known issue. That was the first and last update, if I wanted the fuel and power improvements, and the gear change adjustments that the latest model had I needed to trade in my 2 year old Territory and purchase the new model.

My current Tesla has had several updates, all downloaded and installed at my choosing of time and location, which include but not limited to:


Blind Spot Camera
Traffic Along Route
Disable Sentry Sounds
Driver Profiles
Auto Rear Climate Controls
Additional Bottom Bar Customization
Regenerative Braking
Turn Signal
Cabin Camera
Speed Assist
Online Radio
Sentry Mode
Seat Belt System Enhancement
Tesla Adaptive Suspension
HomeLink Buttons
Battery at Arrival
Green Traffic Light Chime
Bluetooth Menu
Tire Configuration
Improvements to Energy Prediction
Autopilot Maximum Speed
Automatic Supercharger Rerouting
Driver Profiles
Regenerative Braking
Navigation Energy Prediction
TeslaMic
Powered Trunk
Updated Visualizations
Regeneration / Acceleration Line
Heat Pump & Low Voltage Battery
Full Self-Driving (Beta) Suspension
FSD Beta v10.13 Release Notes
Improved Vehicle Path
Additional Bottom Bar Customization
Disney+
Navigation Routes
Child Lock
Charging Time Estimation
Additional Mobile App Controls
Tesla Tutorials
Rear Display Improvements
New Language Support
Browser Improvements
Compass / Always North
Superchargers List
Updated Service Mode
Autopilot Maximum Speed





__





						Tesla Software Update History and Latest Tesla Features
					

A look at Tesla software update history and the features Tesla has released.




					www.notateslaapp.com


----------



## sptrawler (12 August 2022)

This may put a cat among the pigeons.
Who said Trumps tariffs on China didn't work, ah the media that's right, also it seems annoying the EU allies is o.k now.








						EU, South Korea say U.S. plan for EV tax breaks may breach WTO rules
					

BRUSSELS (Reuters) -The European Union and South Korea have raised concerns about proposed U.S. tax credits for purchases of electric vehicles, saying they may discriminate against foreign-made vehicles and breach World Trade Organization (WTO) rules.  Under the $430 billion climate and energy...




					au.news.yahoo.com
				



BRUSSELS (Reuters) -The European Union and South Korea have raised concerns about proposed U.S. tax credits for purchases of electric vehicles, saying they may discriminate against foreign-made vehicles and breach World Trade Organization (WTO) rules.

Under the $430 billion climate and energy bill passed by the U.S. Senate on Sunday, Congress would lift the cap on the existing $7,500 tax credit for electric vehicle purchasers but impose restrictions, including barring vehicles not assembled in North America from receiving the credit.


The ban on tax credits for vehicles assembled outside of North America would take effect as soon as President Joe Biden signs the legislation.

The proposed legislation also includes provisions aimed at preventing use of battery components or critical minerals derived from China.

"We think it's discriminatory, that it is discriminating against foreign producers in relation to U.S. producers," said European Commission spokesperson Miriam Garcia Ferrer. "Of course this would mean that it would be incompatible with the WTO."


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## JohnDe (12 August 2022)

An honest review & description - 



> *Tesla Model S Plaid: The Good, The Bad And The Gimmicks*
> 
> With three motors, over 1,000bhp and a 2 second 0-60 time, the Model S Plaid is easily Tesla's maddest creation to date: a four door family car can put even the rarest and most expensive hypercars to shame in a straight line. But do you really need all that? Does the Plaid do enough to differentiate itself from the already very fast Model S Long Range? Jack and Ricky investigate.


----------



## JohnDe (13 August 2022)

> I've owned a Volkswagen ID.3 for 18 months now and I recently test drove a Tesla Model 3 Performance to see how they compare...


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## JohnDe (16 August 2022)

BHP, like many other companies, now realises that the giant automotive industry is going to switch to electrical vehicles at a much faster pace than previously thought, so demand for copper and nickel will explode.

Who's been investing during the slow times? Not many of the automotive giants, but the rush is starting.


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## Smurf1976 (16 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I'm not sure how your previous comment about EV OTA updates has anything to do with AEMO.



It’s simply a very real example of why I don’t trust software updates period.

I’ve seen far too many examples where it’s clear that testing wasn’t up to scratch and problems were discovered when it was implemented.

That approach isn’t one that fits well with vehicles for obvious reasons.

That the example happens to be electrical related is purely coincidental, my concern being about software testing in general not being robust.


----------



## JohnDe (16 August 2022)

First there was constant talk from the naysayers that EVs will never go mainstream in the next 10 or 15 years, now we're coming to an issue that brings us to battery shortages slowing EV production. What next?



> *Could the EV boom run out of juice before it really gets going?*
> _Quite possibly, for want of batteries_
> 
> Electric vehicles (evs) seem unstoppable. Carmakers are outpledging themselves in terms of production goals. Industry analysts are struggling to keep up. Battery-powered cars could zoom from less than 10% of global vehicle sales in 2021 to 40% by 2030, according to Bloombergnef. Depending on whom you ask, that could translate to anywhere between 25m and 40m evs. They, and the tens of millions manufactured between now and then, will need plenty of batteries. Bernstein reckons that demand from evs will grow nine-fold by 2030 (see chart 1), to 3,200 gigawatt-hours (gwh). Rystad puts it at 4,000gwh.
> ...


----------



## qldfrog (16 August 2022)

For those who appreciate the irony:








						Gas-Powered Drones Solve Electric Drones’ Greatest Weakness
					

Electric drones are clean, convenient, light, and have found seemingly infinite commercial and personal uses, but even the best of them can’t fly more than 45 minutes before needing a recharge. So why not use a gas-powered engine instead?




					www.howtogeek.com
				



Another good one is Biden green plan resulting in the diseappearance of EV $ incentives.
No ABC complaints i am sure


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## JohnDe (16 August 2022)

> qldfrog​*For those who appreciate the irony:*
> Gas-Powered Drones Solve Electric Drones’ Greatest Weakness​Electric drones are clean, convenient, light, and have found seemingly infinite commercial and personal uses, but even the best of them can’t fly more than 45 minutes before needing a recharge. So why not use a gas-powered engine instead?
> www.howtogeek.com




_“There’s a reason why we don’t simply use gasoline to power our drones. Internal combustion engines require heaps of maintenance; they are dirty, complex, expensive, and much more likely to fail than an all-electric drone. This makes them less than ideal as consumer products. A battery-powered drone is more like a smartphone than an RC aircraft, and most users don’t need more than modern drones’ typical 30-minute flight times.”_


----------



## mullokintyre (18 August 2022)

There has been some talk that Australia, like others, need to stimulate the uptake of EV's by providing subsidies, tax breaks, etc etc.
The problem is, often the money ends u in the hands of the manufacturers.
From Zero hedge


> In a move that can only be described as inconspicuously timed, Ford announced last week that it is raising the price of its high end electric F-150 by up to $8,500; an amount that adds another $1,000 onto the new $7,500 EV subsidy that was including in President Biden's "Inflation Reduction Act". Base models are seeing their prices hiked by $7,000.
> 
> Biden signed his "flagship" act on Tuesday afternoon.
> One more time, so we're clear: _*a $7,500 taxpayer subsidy included in an act named after reducing inflation appears to have spurred an even larger price hike on electric pickup trucks. *_
> ...



Its highly likely that the Automakers wqould have increased the prices anyway given the inflation that has been rushing along in the US, but now it seems that the Guvmint (i.e. the taxpayers) will be paying the price increase.
Nice work if you can get it.
Expect the other manufacturers to follow suit.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (18 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> There has been some talk that Australia, like others, need to stimulate the uptake of EV's by providing subsidies, tax breaks, etc etc.
> The problem is, often the money ends u in the hands of the manufacturers.
> From Zero hedge
> 
> ...



Yeah, But my favourite bread (Abbotts country grain) has gone up 40 cents recently which is pretty much the same percentage increase as the ford truck, and the bread bakers don't get an Ev subsidy.

-----------------------

I am not for big Ev subsidies, I think the Government just needs to avoid adding extra taxes while the transition is in the early stages, if anything I would support maybe an increase in the luxury vehicles tax threshold, because as I stated earlier part of the cost that increases the price of EV's is just the battery, so in some ways its a battery tax. (not to mention that the luxury vehicle tax is a silly tax anyway)

Also, Sp has convinced me that maybe incentives for increasing the charging network is the better option.


----------



## sptrawler (18 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah, But my favourite bread (Abbotts country grain) has gone up 40 cents recently which is pretty much the same percentage increase as the ford truck, and the bread bakers don't get an Ev subsidy.
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> ...



On the subject of the network, I have received a VIN number so I thought join chargefox and get ready.
I looked at where I would charge if I decided to go to Albany again as I did a couple of weeks ago, the only 50Kw charger on the Albany highway for type 2 cars is at Kojonup, it has a CHAdeMO and a CCS2 port only the CHADeMO is operational.
Really I'm beginning to think I should have waited and bought the Tesla model Y, as Tesla is the only vehicle in W.A that a person can travel any distance and know there is a charging network that has reasonable coverage.
If there is any rapid up take of E.V's in W.A there will be chaos, as the wife has said, if we want to go up North or down to Albany, Esperance etc we will just have to hire an ICE car.
Which really isn't a good advertisement for  E.V's, my guess is sometime next year there will be a lot of coverage on the news of violence associated with E.V charging in W.A.


----------



## mullokintyre (18 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am not for big Ev subsidies, I think the Government just needs to avoid adding extra taxes while the transition is in the early stages, if anything I would support maybe an increase in the luxury vehicles tax threshold, because as I stated earlier part of the cost that increases the price of EV's is just the battery, so in some ways its a battery tax. (not to mention that the luxury vehicle tax is a silly tax anyway)
> 
> Also, Sp has convinced me that may incentives for increasing the charging network is the better option.



Why do you say the luxury tax is a silly tax anyway?
One of the reasons it was bought in was to claw some tax back from the uber wealthy who leased  high value vehicles to reduce tax.
Worked ok from my perspective.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (18 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Why do you say the luxury tax is a silly tax anyway?
> One of the reasons it was bought in was to claw some tax back from the uber wealthy who leased  high value vehicles to reduce tax.
> Worked ok from my perspective.
> Mick



Firstly if the car is leased for business (which is the only reason you can claim the leasing costs), the Tax increases the cost base of the car, and that cost base is written off against income as part of the lease any way, so it’s not increasing the tax revenue in that situation as you claim.

The tax was brought in to increase the cost of the expensive imported cars, to help support our local vehicle industry which no longer exists.

For me I am already paying 47% tax on my income + 10% gst on the remainder when I choose to spend it, so adding an extra 33% luxury car tax just because the cost of the battery pushed the car over the threshold seems silly.

—————————

Not to mention that the wife and I are a single car family, so we chose to spend the $80k and get a more expensive car, however a family that bought two $70k cars have $140k of cars and don’t get hit with the tax, despite having the luxury of owning $60k more worth of cars than our family.

In fact some one could have 20 x $70,000 cars and not pay any luxury vehicle tax.

————————————
Basically I am of the opinion that it’s a silly tax, if you want to stop people leasing expensive cars, change the leasing rules, but at the moment the luxury vehicle tax does nothing to stop that anyway, because the tax is written of against income anyway.


----------



## Value Collector (18 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Firstly if the car is leased for business (which is the only reason you can claim the leasing costs), the Tax increases the cost base of the car, and that cost base is written off against income as part of the lease any way, so it’s not increasing the tax revenue in that situation as you claim.
> 
> The tax was brought in to increase the cost of the expensive imported cars, to help support our local vehicle industry which no longer exists.
> 
> ...



Out of interest I thought I would run the numbers on how much I have to earn to buy a $100K car I intend to use privately, and how much the government takes in Taxes from me in the process of earning that money and spending it on the Car.

Firstly to have $100K to spend, I actually had to earn $188,679 and pay $88,867 to the ATO in income tax, so it looks like this.

$188,679 had to be earned

Minus *$88,867* paid income Tax.

$100,000 left to spend

*$* *9,090* GST Included in the $100K
*$    6,765* Luxury Vehicle Tax
*$    4,000* Stamp Duty
*$    4,000* customs import fees

So before I have even paid Rego or any of the on road costs, just to spend $100K on a new car I have had to send $112,722 to the government.

*Total Tax paid to own a $100K car = $112,722, that seems like the government is getting a pretty good deal, and certainly makes the "luxury vehicle tax" look like an over the top greedy extra grap.*


----------



## mullokintyre (18 August 2022)

If


Value Collector said:


> Out of interest I thought I would run the numbers on how much I have to earn to buy a $100K car I intend to use privately, and how much the government takes in Taxes from me in the process of earning that money and spending it on the Car.
> 
> Firstly to have $100K to spend, I actually had to earn $188,679 and pay $88,867 to the ATO in income tax, so it looks like this.
> 
> ...



Well, it looks like a pretty good tax to me if you pay that much tax for the pleasure of your luxury car!
However,  I would suggest your reasoning is a bit shonky.
The $88867 would have been paid whether you bought a luxury car  or just kept the money, so its a bit spurious.

If you read this ruling from the ATO


> So your understanding right correct in that an employer can *only* claim up to a maximum of the Luxury Car depreciation limit for the novated lease, even if the novated lease exceeds this amount.
> 
> When calculating the limit and deduction/depreciation amount, you must remove the Luxury Car Tax and GST paid, since you claim a credit for those on your activity statements.



You cannot get a credit of the Luxury car tax and  depreciate the total amount as well on a lease.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (18 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> What about updates that are designed to make the car safer? It’s hard to imagine that any car that rolls of the assembly line will have perfect software that never needs updating.
> 
> Even something as simply as the automatic window wipers in my car were less than perfect on day one, but after a few updates they work great, I would have hated to be stuck with the original window wiper software that only recognised a limited about of rain patterns.




Geez, has it really come to this ?

I drove through some rain yesterday and my windscreen wipers activated with the flick of a switch. 

Are some people so lazy or incompetent these days that they have to rely on software to do everything for them ? 

It's the start of the decline of the human race, mark my words.


----------



## Value Collector (18 August 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The $88867 would have been paid whether you bought a luxury car  or just kept the money, so its a bit spurious.



Thats my point, the government is already taking such a large chunk of the income from people, So trying to think of inventive ways to add extra taxes when they spend the remaining after tax dollars is silly, especially when we already pay GST on money we spend.






> You cannot get a credit of the Luxury car tax and  depreciate the total amount as well on a lease.




As your quote says, they get a credit for it on the activity statement, so either way it's not going to be generating extra taxes for the government in that situation, So it does not serve the purpose you claim which was to tax uber wealthy people with business vehicle leases.

As I said it was introduced to protect a local industry which no longer exists, so yes its silly to still have the tax.

Sure, people with Tall Poppy syndrome love taxes that target people that have higher incomes than them, but the fact is that tax brackets are already set up to make sure higher income earners pay more tax, in fact the year I bought my model 3, I sent a cheque to the tax department large enough to buy 6 Tesla model 3's.

So if I am spreading sending the government 6 Tesla model 3's, I see a luxury vehicle tax designed to stiff me of another few 1000's as a bit rich, and rather unnecessary.


----------



## Value Collector (18 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Geez, has it really come to this ?
> 
> I drove through some rain yesterday and my windscreen wipers activated with the flick of a switch.
> 
> ...



You can manually flick the switch too, but its pretty cool that it does it for you.

Especially  when the rain is changing, it will speed up and slow down the wipers as needed, as well and turn them off when the rain stops, if you do activate the wipers manually it takes a picture of what the droplets look like on the windscreen and sends that back Tesla to help the AI learn when to activate the wipers.

Also, when you think about it if you are driving in autopilot or with other safety features active, you want the car to be able to clear the windscreen when ever it feels it needs to, you don't want it to have to wait for you to flick the switch.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You can manually flick the switch too, but its pretty cool that it does it for you.
> 
> Especially  when the rain is changing, it will speed up and slow down the wipers as needed, as well and turn them off when the rain stops.
> 
> Also, when you think about it if you are driving in autopilot or with other safety features active, you want the car to be able to clear the windscreen when ever it feels it needs to, you don't want it to have to wait for you to flick the switch.




Why would auto drive care about rain on the windshield ?


----------



## Value Collector (18 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Why would auto drive care about rain on the windshield ?



because the forward facing camera looks through the windshield


----------



## SirRumpole (18 August 2022)

Value Collector said:


> because the forward facing camera looks through the windshield




I though it was all done by radar.


----------



## Value Collector (18 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I though it was all done by radar.



No Tesla use cameras, thats how they can see road markings, see red lights and read speed limit signs.

They are modelling human driving, eg humans don't use radar we are visual, they do have radar sensors to to detect distance from objects though, but its mostly visual camera data that is used to drive


----------



## Value Collector (18 August 2022)

@SirRumpole 

check out this video at 50 minute mark, you will see Teslas top engineer explaining how they are teaching the cars to drive using the camera data.


----------



## JohnDe (18 August 2022)

Why is software and updates important for EVs in the 21st century?

Watch the first 4 minutes of this video -


----------



## qldfrog (18 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> On the subject of the network, I have received a VIN number so I thought join chargefox and get ready.
> I looked at where I would charge if I decided to go to Albany again as I did a couple of weeks ago, the only 50Kw charger on the Albany highway for type 2 cars is at Kojonup, it has a CHAdeMO and a CCS2 port only the CHADeMO is operational.
> Really I'm beginning to think I should have waited and bought the Tesla model Y, as Tesla is the only vehicle in W.A that a person can travel any distance and know there is a charging network that has reasonable coverage.
> If there is any rapid up take of E.V's in W.A there will be chaos, as the wife has said, if we want to go up North or down to Albany, Esperance etc we will just have to hire an ICE car.
> Which really isn't a good advertisement for  E.V's, my guess is sometime next year there will be a lot of coverage on the news of violence associated with E.V charging in W.A.



But ev people are cool dudes, cashed up hippies so there will be no fight, just flowers throwing competition


----------



## qldfrog (18 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I though it was all done by radar.



No, there is A LOT of computer vision involved, radar are not orecise rnought, good for distances etc not for AI filtereing of cyclist, pedestrian, children vs animals etc.
From IT point of view, the more sensors types the better


----------



## qldfrog (18 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> No, there is A LOT of computer vision involved, radar are not orecise rnought, good for distances etc not for AI filtereing of cyclist, pedestrian, children vs animals etc.
> From IT point of view, the more sensors types the better



Sadly i read this again far too late and can not fix typos:
"No, there is A LOT of computer vision involved, radar are not precise enough, good for distances etc not for AI filtering of cyclist, pedestrian, children vs animals etc."


----------



## SirRumpole (18 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Sadly i read this again far too late and can not fix typos:
> "No, there is A LOT of computer vision involved, radar are not precise enough, good for distances etc not for AI filtering of cyclist, pedestrian, children vs animals etc."




Funny, I read your first try and didn't recognise any mistakes !

It shows our brains fill in the gaps when required.


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## qldfrog (18 August 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Funny, I read your first try and didn't recognise any mistakes !
> 
> It shows our brains fill in the gaps when required.



yes but it makes me very cranky to see all these , against myself.
I am a non english language person, and have a latin streak..so passionate/fast typing but try to be pedantic with spelling..enough missing forms or grammar misused without these stupid typos or mistakes.
Better on the laptop usually but that is not when i usually type
Posted a few interesting link on EV garbage trucks on the PH2 thread if anyone interested


----------



## mullokintyre (19 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> yes but it makes me very cranky to see all these , against myself.
> I am a non english language person, and have a latin streak..so passionate/fast typing but try to be pedantic with spelling..enough missing forms or grammar misused without these stupid typos or mistakes.
> Better on the laptop usually but that is not when i usually type
> Posted a few interesting link on EV garbage trucks on the PH2 thread if anyone interested



We have been making allowances for you for ages Mr French Amphibian.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2022)

Now we are talking, put me down for one of these, when they get to a sensible price. 111Kwh battery.









						2022 Volkswagen ID. Buzz: Electric Kombi on wish list for Australia
					

Volkswagen is moving closer to a production confirmation for a dual-cab pick-up version of its ID. Buzz as the company's Australian arm finalises details for local sales of its new-age electric delivery van and people mover.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## qldfrog (19 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Now we are talking, put me down for one of these, when they get to a sensible price. 111Kwh battery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that a cardboard model or a cartoon character?.waohh will need acquired taste🥴


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Is that a cardboard model or a cartoon character?.waohh will need acquired taste🥴



I don't mind what it looks like as long as it has a great range, is comfortable and I can fit my toys in the back and take the grandkids camping.
At my age no matter how ugly the car is, I'm uglier.


----------



## qldfrog (19 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't mind what it looks like as long as it has a great range, is comfortable and I can fit my toys in the back and take the grandkids camping.
> At my age no matter how ugly the car is, I'm uglier.



I know your paon, and did not even need to reach old age to face that myself😂


----------



## sptrawler (19 August 2022)

I can't wait to see how this will drive down the price of electric cars, my back of the napkin guess is it will give legacy manufacturers carte blanche to lift the price of ICE cars to the same as electric cars and stop the importation of reasonably priced existing ICE cars.

But hey just keep telling us that things will get cheaper, electric cars will get cheaper, because we will stop allowing reasonably priced ICE cars to be imported. The muppets will suck that up. 
At least now we know how they are going to get the ICE cars off the road and force people into E.V's, 'smog tests anyone'?

How's this for double speak.🤣 The honest bit is?
"Danca Maria".









						Bowen sets his sights on tough vehicle emissions standards
					

The climate change and energy minister says only by quickly introducing fuel efficiency standards in line with world’s best practice can Australia expect to drive down the cost of EVs domestically.




					www.theage.com.au
				




Average emissions from Australians’ cars would have to fall dramatically and rapidly to meet the ambitions of fuel efficiency standards flagged by Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen.

Bowen told an electric vehicle conference in Canberra on Friday that only by quickly introducing fuel efficiency standards in line with world’s best practice could Australia expect to drive down the cost of EVs domestically and expand the range of models available.

Bowen said because Australia did not mandate the sale of cleaner vehicles, car companies sent their limited supplies of electric models to jurisdictions that did, leaving models with older, dirtier technology for Australia.

“What the commentators and naysayers who bag electric vehicles as unaffordable and unavailable in Australia deliberately ignore is that this unaffordability and unavailability is a direct result of policy decisions. In fact, Australian policy failures,” he said.


----------



## JohnDe (23 August 2022)

Are BYD ensuring that one of the big dealerships ends up taking over their brand, by making it compulsory for owners to service like they do an ICEV?

"hidden $3100 cost revealed"


----------



## JohnDe (24 August 2022)

Is this for real, or is someone playing silly buggers?

They've gone crazy! BYD's bizarre EV warranty is ILLEGAL


----------



## Boggo (24 August 2022)

Wouldn't Australian Consumer Law (eff since Jan 2011 I think) cover most of these areas where manufacturers try to get away with stuff.

A mate of mine had an issue with a Toyota Prado Sahara where one of the headlight adjusters stuck either up or down.
Toyota claimed it was out of warranty by a few months but when they were reminded of the implications of consumer law as he claimed it was a safety issue and unfit for purpose he was advised that they would make an exception and replace the complete assembly for free, which they did.

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees


----------



## JohnDe (25 August 2022)

Boggo said:


> Wouldn't Australian Consumer Law (eff since Jan 2011 I think) cover most of these areas where manufacturers try to get away with stuff.
> 
> A mate of mine had an issue with a Toyota Prado Sahara where one of the headlight adjusters stuck either up or down.
> Toyota claimed it was out of warranty by a few months but when they were reminded of the implications of consumer law as he claimed it was a safety issue and unfit for purpose he was advised that they would make an exception and replace the complete assembly for free, which they did.
> ...




Yes, he does mention Consumer Law, but what a hassle as an owner to have to negotiate with the repairer (there is no BYD dealership network at the moment, all work will be done by an approved franchise).


----------



## Boggo (25 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes, he does mention Consumer Law, but what a hassle as an owner to have to negotiate with the repairer (there is no BYD dealership network at the moment, all work will be done by an approved franchise).




@JohnDe all the more reason to avoid anything that doesn't have a backup network I guess.

Having said that I think the carmakers are seeing this change in car types as an opportunity to create a whole new level of poor service and expense. Look at the Nissan Leaf that are selling for between $27k to to $47k but a new set of batteries will cost over $30k !!!


----------



## sptrawler (25 August 2022)

The media wheels turn slowly, especially on issues that don't grab headlines, getting battery manufacturing going in Australia IMO is the most important issue facing us. Just sending raw materials away for processing is more harmful to our kids futures than the price of a house, yet it gets minimal coverage, maybe at last the penny is dropping.








						EV makers are so desperate for battery minerals, they're going direct to Australian mines
					

A cocktail of minerals is needed to make EV batteries and Australia has them in abundance. But will the country capitalise on its natural resources advantage?




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## qldfrog (25 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The media wheels turn slowly, especially on issues that don't grab headlines, getting battery manufacturing going in Australia IMO is the most important issue facing us. Just sending raw materials away for processing is more harmful to our kids futures than the price of a house, yet it gets minimal coverage, maybe at last the penny is dropping.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As i already expressed: in your dreams ..
Have you tried to build a house lately? Then imagine a chemical factory, with power need, technical know how and polluting processes.
NOT A CHANCE..but agree it should be the way to go.


----------



## bk1 (25 August 2022)

Another piece of fluff from the national broadcaster. Want to be a player? We need a LOT more holes in the ground.
How's that going to go with Albo and the greens?...no comment from the ABC. 

_"According to Mr Cooke, big investments are going to be needed to ensure supply can keep pace with the rapidly increasing use of battery minerals."_

Scale of the sort required is beyond Australia, no one is coming here to build a gigafactory. Congratulations, you have managed to price a whole country out of the biggest step change in emission free technologies in our lifetimes.


----------



## sptrawler (25 August 2022)

@qldfrog and @bk1 , go over to general chat 'future of power generation and storage' thread, I agree with your sentiments.
But as usual Australia is going to shoot itself in the foot again, the amount of renewables and storage we will need, would support the creation of a massive industrial manufacturing base, but as you guys say Australia will just buy off the shelf from China.


----------



## SirRumpole (26 August 2022)

Aptera - an Ultra Efficient EV.










						Fully Charged Checks Out Aptera, Drives The Three-Wheeler Solar EV
					

This is a detailed look inside the Aptera factory, as well as its promising Sun-powered three-wheeler.




					insideevs.com


----------



## JohnDe (27 August 2022)

Now available in Australia -


----------



## JohnDe (27 August 2022)

Test Drive, Walkaround and First Impressions of the BYD 2022 Production Atto3 RHD


----------



## rcw1 (27 August 2022)

Good afternoon JohnDe,
Somewhat cheaper than the Merc mate 

Kind regards
rcw1


----------



## JohnDe (29 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Test Drive, Walkaround and First Impressions of the BYD 2022 Production Atto3 RHD





Part 2


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Part 2



For the price point it sounds good, I personally think the interior will date very quickly, as it probably isn't mainstream Australian fare IMO.
But pretty impressive car IMO. I wonder if the navigation issue, is a result of the Trump ban on Google and other U.S mapping software access?


----------



## qldfrog (29 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> For the price point it sounds good, I personally think the interior will date very quickly, as it probably isn't mainstream Australian fare IMO.
> But pretty impressive car IMO. I wonder if the navigation issue, is a result of the Trump ban on Google and other U.S mapping software access?



So far, the only EV i consider here in oz...until i look at the $..but BYD still the best.


----------



## JohnDe (29 August 2022)

sptrawler said:


> For the price point it sounds good, I personally think the interior will date very quickly, as it probably isn't mainstream Australian fare IMO.
> But pretty impressive car IMO. I wonder if the navigation issue, is a result of the Trump ban on Google and other U.S mapping software access?




Yes that interior is a bit 'flash gordon sci-fi style', pricing is pretty good and range is decent, but if I was looking to buy my concern would be  quality, warranty and long term support.

BYD have already changed their delivery /repair dealer and back tracked on the warranty, and are still waiting for a ANCAP rating.

Watching the videos I noticed a lot of movement in the steering wheel while driving on straight roads. That is something that I do not get from my 2014 Holden SSV Ute & 2021Telsa M3.

_*UPDATE: 22/8/22:*__ EVDirect has backtracked on its warranty coverage, and confirmed rated towing and roof rack capabilities while updating its website under the BYD Automotive branding from Eagers. Previously, EVDirect promised a seven-year, unlimited kilometre vehicle warranty and seven-year/160,000km battery warranty._​


----------



## sptrawler (29 August 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes that interior is a bit 'flash gordon sci-fi style', pricing is pretty good and range is decent, but if I was looking to buy my concern would be  quality, warranty and long term support.
> 
> BYD have already changed their delivery /repair dealer and back tracked on the warranty, and are still waiting for a ANCAP rating.



I agree with you and one of the reasons I went for the Kona, dealership backup, but I only expect to keep it for 5 years, by then the landscape will have changed heaps IMO.


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2022)

A newbie's experience with EV's in Australia.

She's an engineer so she knows what she's talking about.


----------



## JohnDe (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> A newbie's experience with EV's in Australia.
> 
> She's an engineer so she knows what she's talking about.






Haven't watched the video yet, but your comment "She's an engineer so she knows what she's talking about" made me laugh.

My business deals with 'engineered' components every day, and the crew and I regularly scratch our heads at some of the engineering we see.

Just thought I'd say. Now I'll watch the video.


----------



## qldfrog (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> A newbie's experience with EV's in Australia.
> 
> She's an engineer so she knows what she's talking about.




So you save 200aud and waste 8 to 9 hours..ohhh no not wasted, instead of stopping in a nice restaurant, you can get crappy servo food while you want...
And save again on your coffee plastic cup😉
I am actually shocked at how bad it is.
And will definitively not use an ev for any long trip for probably as long as charging takes an hour....
You will own nothing even your time (hint..your life). But be happy😊


----------



## SirRumpole (1 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> So you save 200aud and waste 8 to 9 hours..ohhh no not wasted, instead of stopping in a nice restaurant, you can get crappy servo food while you want...
> And save again on your coffee plastic cup😉
> I am actually shocked at how bad it is.
> And will definitively not use an ev for any long trip for probably as long as charging takes an hour....
> You will own nothing even your time (hint..your life). But be happy😊




Yes, put infrastructure in before expecting people to buy the cars.

Although I'd have to say that EV's are a great option if most of one's driving is suburban and can recharge at home.


----------



## qldfrog (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, put infrastructure in before expecting people to buy the cars.
> 
> Although I'd have to say that EV's are a great option if most of one's driving is suburban and can recharge at home.



Were it not for the price which so far does not compute:
savings do not warrant the extra cost of ev, even with free recharge with 10y life battery, i could live comfortably with an ev as a runabout for trips around town.but not for farming tasks, nor any decent trip of any type up here in northern SE Qld..
But it's ok, the ABC fact checker just told me yesterday we have plenty of EV utes available 😂


----------



## qldfrog (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, put infrastructure in before expecting people to buy the cars.
> 
> Although I'd have to say that EV's are a great option if most of one's driving is suburban and can recharge at home.



Which i would summarise as :
For Tesla wanxxxs in Paddington and Toorak to replace their tractors.🙄
I also cry lately with these EV as they are following the ICE deplorable trend of becoming disposable units.
With more focus on screens size than mecanical worth
My 15y old ute consumes less now than it was on the first year, and could go another 15y, as do many landcruisers or range rovers, or even small cars like ford fiesta etc
I cry for earth when i see some of  these EVs😭 or similar ICEs going to the dump after 10y


----------



## macca (1 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Were it not for the price which so far does not compute:
> savings do not warrant the extra cost of ev, even with free recharge with 10y life battery, i could live comfortably with an ev as a runabout for trips around town.but not for farming tasks, nor any decent trip of any type up here in northern SE Qld..
> But it's ok, the ABC fact checker just told me yesterday we have plenty of EV utes available 😂




When it comes to running costs we do have to consider that once the amount of tax on fuel starts to fall you can bet your bippy there will be tax per Kilometre travelled before too long.

The tax on fuel is Huge, no way will it Not be replaced with something on EVs


----------



## JohnDe (1 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, put infrastructure in before expecting people to buy the cars.
> 
> Although I'd have to say that EV's are a great option if most of one's driving is suburban and can recharge at home.



I’ve driven thousands of country & interstate kilometres without an issue in my EV. 

Like any purchase, choose well and choose wisely for your needs. Always remember that cheap today is not necessarily cheap in the long run.


----------



## JohnDe (1 September 2022)

Price is decent, but it already looks dated.


----------



## qldfrog (2 September 2022)

macca said:


> When it comes to running costs we do have to consider that once the amount of tax on fuel starts to fall you can bet your bippy there will be tax per Kilometre travelled before too long.
> 
> The tax on fuel is Huge, no way will it Not be replaced with something on EVs



sure it will but that will worsen the case for EV so the decision to postpone EV purchase ;
until my better half also give up on the place and I can head O/S or we stay and ICE use is forbidden on public roads


----------



## JohnDe (2 September 2022)

I find it funny that some people talk like an expert on EVs, yet they have not experienced ownership of an EV or at least a truly long distance multi day trip with one.

Farms and Landcruiser's may be an issue for some, but things are changing fast and if a farmer or hobby farmer does not keep up they are part of  our productivity problems. Australia needs people capable of innovation and foresight to bring back our productivity that made us great -  *Electric vehicles help farmers drive savings*

Head deep in the sand, comes to mind.

At least Rosie did the research, borrowed an EV for a long distance test, and assessed her findings before commenting.

EVs are coming, whether we like it or not, manufacturers and countries have put an end date on ICEVs. History shows that when something has a use by date it becomes obsolete before the date arrives.

*IN FULL: ONS Conference (Elon Musk Interview)*

Oil for petrol and diesel is imported, most of it from countries that are not tolerant to our ways, we have become hostage to them and made them rich. EVs are a way to ween ourselves off of imported fuels and to become self sufficient by producing our own electricity with our own resources.

I have driven 20,000km in my EV with my wife, most of those kilometers have been in the country both in our state and interstate. As Rosie found out, our first trip was a little daunting because it was our first. However, I had done the research and chosen a vehicle with a long range and an easy charging process. Not once have we been stranded or worried about not making the distance, we have regularly travel from one city to another for the past 30 years and the EV added only 1 extra hour. My ICEV can make the drive on one tank of fuel, but we don't drive recklessly anymore, we always stop a few times for a break with a coffee or a snack or just to stretch our legs. Now we do the same while topping up the charge in the EV.

My brother is anti-EV, he sends me messages just about every day about the conspiracies of EVs and how they are bad for the environment blah blah blah. Like most, he doesn't get it. I didn't buy an EV solely for the environment. My reasons were because I'm tired of filling up at petrol stations, I have wondered for a decade when we would catch up to the future promised to us, combustion engines have fulfilled their service life and are now an inefficient form of transport.

Rosie mentioned the cost saving using electricity over fuel, she did not highlight the life time savings. EVs don't need and oil & filter change, no spark plugs or glow plugs, no air filter or fuel filter, no fuel pump or drive belts, no timing belt. The cost savings in maintenance is thousands of dollars.

EVs are not for everyone, but for those that have not truly experienced one they should try before becoming an expert.


----------



## JohnDe (3 September 2022)




----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2022)

Another real life experience driving an EV from Perth - Melbourne - Sydney return and a few observations, which we have already discussed on here. But it is good to hear it first hand.









						Krishna and David did a 9,000km trip in an EV — and it wasn't as hard as they thought
					

Krishna Sen and her partner David Hill drove across the whole width of the country — from Perth to Melbourne, then Sydney, and back to Perth — in an electric car. This is how it went.




					www.abc.net.au
				



The boot is packed with a huge box of plugs — from "trickle" or "granny" chargers all the way to "DC fast".

This is all to make this meticulously planned, time-consuming trip possible.

Krishna Sen and her partner David Hill are driving across the whole width of the country twice — from Perth to Melbourne, then Sydney, and back to Perth — in an electric car.

"When you start driving in an electric vehicle on a long journey, there's this thing at the back of your mind: 'Is the range of this car going to be enough to get me from one charging station to another?'," says Krishna, a retired social science professor.

"So, we started with some anxiety. Our car theoretically can do 450 kilometres with a full charge, but in reality, it can't.

"If it's a cold morning, it (the battery) does less. If we need to use the heater, it does less.

"All of this adds to your anxiety, and also a bit of excitement.

Over the course of the 25-day, 9,211-kilometre journey, Krishna and David found the trip was not as hard as they (or that swift commenter) thought.


----------



## JohnDe (3 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Another real life experience driving an EV from Perth - Melbourne - Sydney return and a few observations, which we have already discussed on here. But it is good to hear it first hand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Read that early this morning, and wondered why they needed a 'a huge box of plugs'. But then I realised what they drove. Reminded me of someone driving a Mini across the Nullabor in the 1960's, it can be done but when comparing to a Holden or Ford of the day wasn't much fun.

I carry 3 cables, in the back there's the dedicated charging cable in its special bag which includes a 10A and 15A plug, and in the Frunk I have a HD extension cable and a MENNEKES Type 2 Adapter. 

When purchasing I had long distance driving in mind, so chose a long range model and picked up the extra cables. Christmas holidays I was planning a 3000km drive across the country, fairly easy with the built in software program, but something has come up. There will be some country drives and testing happening on a smaller scale, I'll post the outcomes.


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Read that early this morning, and wondered why they needed a 'a huge box of plugs'.



I'm getting exactly what they are driving, I couldn't get in and out of the model 3, way too much joint damage.


----------



## farmerge (3 September 2022)

Hello John De have been toying with the electric car purchase for a while now, but current car is only 3 years young. I am presently working for a former Fed pollie who recently pruchased an EV and by all accounts it is the ants pants. Time and patience i have to make sure the bugs are ironed out


----------



## JohnDe (3 September 2022)

farmerge said:


> Hello John De have been toying with the electric car purchase for a while now, but current car is only 3 years young. I am presently working for a former Fed pollie who recently pruchased an EV and by all accounts it is the ants pants. Time and patience i have to make sure the bugs are ironed out



Now is a great time to sell an ICEV, prices are very high for good stock. That’s going to change soon, new ICEV stock is finally starting to flow into the market. Prices of used stock is bound to drop soon.


----------



## JohnDe (3 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I'm getting exactly what they are driving, I couldn't get in and out of the model 3, way too much joint damage.
> 
> View attachment 146342



It’s always the knee’s 🫡

Nothing wrong with that model, but if you’re planning a trip like they did just use the EV charging apps & just a couple of cables; those I mentioned & a 3 phase


----------



## farmerge (3 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Now is a great time to sell an ICEV, prices are very high for good stock. That’s going to change soon, new ICEV stock is finally starting to flow into the market. Prices of used stock is bound to drop soon.



Hard part of this is she is really happy with the Subaru we presently have. Her car not mine


----------



## sptrawler (3 September 2022)

Teething problems will be an issue and why the State and Federal Govt's need to get on with sorting out the grid.








						Electric-car owners told to avoid charging during California heatwave
					

US power companies have warned California’s electric-car owners to avoid charging their vehicles this weekend, as high temperatures and a public holiday spark concerns about the strength of the state's energy grid.




					www.drive.com.au
				



The rollout of electric cars in California has triggered an energy crisis that many industry insiders have feared since the increase in sales of zero emissions vehicles.
Electric-car owners in California have been told to avoid charging their vehicles as the US state prepares for a heat wave this weekend.
The Labor Day holiday coincides with predicted temperatures between 35 to 38 degrees celsius in south-west California, placing excess demand on the state’s electricity grid.


----------



## JohnDe (4 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> Cadogan has his say on that issue:
> 
> 
> 
> For me EVs don't make much sense at all *at this stage*.... As much as I love my new EG (electric generator that I posted about elsewhere)


----------



## Sdajii (4 September 2022)

Currently only about 1% of vehicles in the USA are EVs, but already there are charging restrictions because of electricity supply shortages and infrastructure shortcomings. 

Sure, any new development requires new infrastructure to support it, but this is a pretty monumental challenge given that not only is there a plan to increase electricity demand from EVs by a massive multiple, but at the same time there is a push to use more expensive and less reliable sources of electricity. 

In Australia the situation is similar. Electricity prices are already skyrocketing mostly due to the government forcing a move away from coal and to more expensive, less reliable options, and on top of that there is the massive push to convert private vehicles to electric. 

In Europe we're seeing all sorts of electricity issues as well as other energy crises.

A lot about this whole transition is beginning to seem implausible, or at the very least, set to cause us all a lot of great pain.

Meanwhile, China is set to profit from it directly and indirectly through watching their stated enemies harm themselves, while China itself continues to expand its use of coal.


----------



## wayneL (4 September 2022)

^^ An inconvenient truth.


----------



## JohnDe (4 September 2022)

Sdajii said:


> Currently only about 1% of vehicles in the USA are EVs, but already there are charging restrictions because of electricity supply shortages and infrastructure shortcomings.
> 
> Sure, any new development requires new infrastructure to support it, but this is a pretty monumental challenge given that not only is there a plan to increase electricity demand from EVs by a massive multiple, but at the same time there is a push to use more expensive and less reliable sources of electricity.
> 
> ...





Catch up 😉



> What Percentage of New Car Sales are Electric? The sharp increase in electric-vehicle registrations at the start of 2022 meant that the EV share of the overall market in the U.S. hit a historic *4.6*






> The U.S. market share of plug-in electric passenger cars increased from 0.14% in 2011, to 0.66% in 2015, to 1.13% in 2017, and achieved a record market share of 2.1% in 2018, slightly declined to 1.9% in 2019, then rising to *4.6% by the start of 2022*.California is the largest plug-in car regional market in the country, ...






> The United States needs many more EV-charging stations—and federal funds for them are coming. Seven principles could help US states and companies accelerate this buildout effectively.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (4 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Catch up 😉



I would agree. 

I've been following the US Financial Press on EV and the race is on between states in the USA to get EV manufacturing. 

About 120 years ago similar exponential rise in production of the ICE occurred 5 years after New York's biggest headache was getting rid of the manure from the streets because of horse-drawn carriages. 

Where are the Australian innovators?

We have a huge GDP, more skilled migrants coming and no manufacturing. 

Catch up 

gg


----------



## wayneL (4 September 2022)

I'm still thinking of breeding Clydesdales, FWIW


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 September 2022)

Sdajii said:


> already there are charging restrictions because of electricity supply shortages and infrastructure shortcomings.



From a technical perspective (ignoring the cesspit that is politics), it's dead easy with a "smart" approach but 100% guaranteed with a "dumb" approach.

Conceptually that's like most things. Everything from IT to gardening tends to fail badly if approached with a brute force dumb approach but it works far better with some smarts.

Technically it's absolutely doable but it requires some smarts otherwise it fails. Same with petrol which also tends to fail rather spectacularly with a bull at a gate approach.


----------



## wayneL (5 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


>




Dueling yootoobs.



...and from a certified Labor shill 'n all.


----------



## JohnDe (5 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> Dueling yootoobs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...and from a certified Labor shill 'n all.





Not really a duel more like a 'I agree but' argument, and his only concern is in regards to Utes.

Though he did get a few things wrong, like brake wear for an EV Ute, saying something like 'EV Utes extra weight will cause premature brake wear, over a standard Ute'. What he got wrong there is not taking into account that EVs have regenerative braking, the mechanical brakes are assisted by the regenerative loading that slows the vehicle down. A bit like a 'jacobs brake'

John Cadogan is also having a go at the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, in a nice way, about the cost and availability of EV Utes in Australia, "PM Anthony Albanese doesn't seem to grasp the problem with EV Utes". John is sort of correct and mentions, 'the problem will happen if the government brings in regulation that enforces that all new Ute sales are to be EV Utes, within the next few years. I very highly doubt that any government will do that.









						The Eight best Electric utes heading to Australia
					

If you think that a battery-powered utility truck (or "pickup truck", if you're from the US of A) couldn't possibly have the power and durability of a similar ute powered by petrol or diesel, all-electric trucks may soon have you changing your mind.




					www.carsguide.com.au


----------



## JohnDe (5 September 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I would agree.
> 
> I've been following the US Financial Press on EV and the race is on between states in the USA to get EV manufacturing.
> 
> ...




Tesla are looking to build more Gigafactory's, one to be announced very soon and it is possibly Canada. If Australian governments and industry put their heads together we could offer try and get into the next round a few year from now.

Imagine having a Tesla Gigafactory build in Australia. New technologies, improved capabilities for our work force, refining of our minerals in our own backyard, supplying EVs to countries in our region. We have all the raw materials. land and sun, we have the technical colleges which the Feds are going to boost with more funding.




> *New car, EV sales surge*
> 
> The Australian vehicle market has posted its best August result for five years, with a 17 per cent surge in demand as sales of electric cars hit record levels.
> 
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (5 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Tesla are looking to build more Gigafactory's, one to be announced very soon and it is possibly Canada. If Australian governments and industry put their heads together we could offer try and get into the next round a few year from now.
> 
> Imagine having a Tesla Gigafactory build in Australia. New technologies, improved capabilities for our work force, refining of our minerals in our own backyard, supplying EVs to countries in our region. We have all the raw materials. land and sun, we have the technical colleges which the Feds are going to boost with more funding.




Nah, it'll never work, just ask @Value Collector .


----------



## qldfrog (5 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Not really a duel more like a 'I agree but' argument, and his only concern is in regards to Utes.
> 
> Though he did get a few things wrong, like brake wear for an EV Ute, saying something like 'EV Utes extra weight will cause premature brake wear, over a standard Ute'. What he got wrong there is not taking into account that EVs have regenerative braking, the mechanical brakes are assisted by the regenerative loading that slows the vehicle down. A bit like a 'jacobs brake'
> 
> ...



But i liked knowing that an ev F150 pulling a big caravan has a 160 km range..imagine all these grey nomads here queuing and clogging recharge stations on the freeway which bring ups quickly to the realisation that wanted or not, the grey nomad will diseappear as will any inlanf small or medium town reducing Australia to capital cities and a few centers , plus wilderness, empty first nation reserves and giant farming areas..which just happen to be the Reset model.
All is good...


----------



## JohnDe (5 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> But i liked knowing that an ev F150 pulling a big caravan has a 160 km range..imagine all these grey nomads here queuing and clogging recharge stations on the freeway which bring ups quickly to the realisation that wanted or not, the grey nomad will diseappear as will any inlanf small or medium town reducing Australia to capital cities and a few centers , plus wilderness, empty first nation reserves and giant farming areas..which just happen to be the Reset model.
> All is good...



Interesting qldfrog, first that you have taken me off your ignore list in the last hour or two & then put me back on it, and secondly you like a model not available in Australia and it’s 160 ml towing range. 

Regardless of the required usage, the fact is that EV Utes are in their infancy and I’m guessing about where EV cars were about 10 years ago. Like the Tesla Model S, a very expensive model that only the wealthy could afford but it opened the way for funds that allowed development of cheaper models with longer range.

Give it a few more years and there will be improved battery & motor technology, and software improvements.

No one in government is calling for the instant replacement of the Ute with EV alternatives. Only the scaremongers.


----------



## wayneL (5 September 2022)

EV utes and Deliverance country, more Doolin' Yootoobs.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> No one in government is calling for the instant replacement of the Ute with EV alternatives. Only the scaremongers.



True in the Australian sense perhaps but there are certainly places overseas looking to ban the sale of ICE light vehicles completely.


----------



## Value Collector (5 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Nah, it'll never work, just ask @Value Collector .



Building whole cars wouldn’t work, but a giga factory for battery packs might, but I am no expert on the economics of shipping completed battery packs vs battery materials.

If assembling batteries here lowers shipping costs it would work, if shipping bulk nickel and lithium lowers shipping costs then it won’t.

All that also relies on the cost of Labour in Australia though, which is generally high.


----------



## JohnDe (5 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> EV utes and Deliverance country, more Doolin' Yootoobs.


----------



## JohnDe (5 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> EV utes and Deliverance country, more Doolin' Yootoobs.


----------



## JohnDe (5 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> EV utes and Deliverance country, more Doolin' Yootoobs.


----------



## wayneL (5 September 2022)




----------



## wayneL (5 September 2022)




----------



## qldfrog (5 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> True in the Australian sense perhaps but there are certainly places overseas looking to ban the sale of ICE light vehicles completely.



Let's be honest, the whole aim for these bans is to prevent individual car ownership all together.a return to the uk industrial revolution: masses of workers eating margarine, bread and sweat tea, never moving further away than a bicycle ride away from their hutch on the sunday, and a couple of times lifetime using public transport to go to a wedding or a funeral.
Why would you move when you can Zoom and VR travel.
Once this is acknowledged, you quickly understand that few will be able/allowed to owe EVs and the range ,or ability to pull a caravan is a non issue.


----------



## Smurf1976 (5 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Let's be honest, the whole aim for these bans is to prevent individual car ownership all together



At a technical level I'm very sure it's all doable with the right approach. I say that having crunched plenty of numbers and so on, it's not just an ideological or in principle comment. Done properly electric vehicles are workable. 

On the other hand well yeah, I ain't no fan of the "you will own nothing and be a slave" crowd coming up with ways to stop anyone other than the rich driving.


----------



## qldfrog (5 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> At a technical level I'm very sure it's all doable with the right approach. I say that having crunched plenty of numbers and so on, it's not just an ideological or in principle comment. Done properly electric vehicles are workable.
> 
> On the other hand well yeah, I ain't no fan of the "you will own nothing and be a slave" crowd coming up with ways to stop anyone other than the rich driving.



Workable done properly and for certain needs and people, but need to be affordable and do the job, i can not bring any ev available in Australia thru the farm, then the idea of crossing a creek with a lithium battery under the belly is scary.and what about the millions living outside big cities in farms and small regional town when a trip to the shopping centee is a 200 or 400km run..do you just then pray not to break a leg or have a snake bite during the following day if you need to go to the hospital or see a gp?
This whole societal model is designed for european or american cities,with public transport.their answer will be to push people out of the country and back into urban ghettos, where more control is possible and more leverage available.
Once tou do things like ban ice, this is not technical but brainless ideology


----------



## orr (5 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> True in the Australian sense perhaps but there are certainly places overseas looking to ban the sale of ICE light vehicles completely.



Nuance Smurf, one important word; 'sale of *new* ICE light vehicals'
So lets be honest... given the fact that a model-T can still  be driven today, one hundred plus years after the first was sold, anyone who'd like could continue to drive ICE vehical  for centuries into the future. 
Those wanting to kick themselves in the back end financially utilising ICE vehicals will have that choice and more importantly the freedom to do so for generations to come.   Obviously there will be a quickly diminishing cohort of these economic imbiciles as even a cursory look at adoption curves of new and improved technogies would indicate.
Once this is acknowedged.....??? ..... What am I talking about 'acknowledged ?  I sound like an idiot .... It's bleeding obvious.     (to some)


----------



## JohnDe (5 September 2022)

Crossing Rivers in an Electric Rivian - Pat Callinan's 4X4 Adventures
					

Rivian set out to prove once and for all the all-electric R1T is capable off-road. Is this just a marketing stunt or serious capability?




					mr4x4.com.au


----------



## JohnDe (5 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Tesla are looking to build more Gigafactory's, one to be announced very soon and it is possibly Canada. If Australian governments and industry put their heads together we could offer try and get into the next round a few year from now




Some of the reasons Canada is likely to be the location for the next Gigafactory


----------



## Value Collector (5 September 2022)

wayneL said:


>




Isn’t one of the first rules tradesman learn to “use the right tool for the job?

It’s a pretty easy fix, get a digger with a bigger battery or get a faster charging system.

This guys next video will be about how a lawn mowing contractor blew up his $99 ryobi whipper snipper.

Serious I don’t understand why these angry little men waste their time making these BS videos.

——————————
Mean while, some of the largest and most powerful earthmoving equipment ever built is electric, and has been for years.


----------



## SirRumpole (5 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> True in the Australian sense perhaps but there are certainly places overseas looking to ban the sale of ICE light vehicles completely.



Yes, the ACT. Lala land if ever there was one.


----------



## wayneL (5 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Isn’t one of the first rules tradesman learn to “use the right tool for the job?
> 
> It’s a pretty easy fix, get a digger with a bigger battery or get a faster charging system.
> 
> ...




1/ False equivalence fallacy.

2/ True, but with their own diesel generator


----------



## wayneL (6 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Workable done properly and for certain needs and people, but need to be affordable and do the job, i can not bring any ev available in Australia thru the farm, then the idea of crossing a creek with a lithium battery under the belly is scary.and what about the millions living outside big cities in farms and small regional town when a trip to the shopping centee is a 200 or 400km run..do you just then pray not to break a leg or have a snake bite during the following day if you need to go to the hospital or see a gp?
> This whole societal model is designed for european or american cities,with public transport.their answer will be to push people out of the country and back into urban ghettos, where more control is possible and more leverage available.
> Once tou do things like ban ice, this is not technical but brainless ideology



Subsequent to this post one of our resident Trots floated out that we are all imbeciles unless we buy an electric sh1tbox, in spite of everything that has been said and especially in light of your observations here, Froggy.

Projection? Yes I think so. Said poster never says anything without casting aspersions via laughable word salads. 

I think it say much about him/her/it/zhim/zher, or whatever ludicrous pronoun it has invented for itself.

Very good post, Sir.


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 September 2022)

orr said:


> Nuance Smurf, one important word; 'sale of *new* ICE light vehicals'



I thought that was obvious - governments generally don't stop the transfer of existing property between individuals. Rules and regulations, regarding anything, generally only apply to new product being sold (with the occasional exception due to safety).


orr said:


> given the fact that a model-T can still be driven today, one hundred plus years after the first was sold, anyone who'd like could continue to drive ICE vehical for centuries into the future.




Technically they could but not in practice as a regular use vehicle.

It'll vary with use and the quality of the vehicle but once a car is 15 years past its original manufacturing date, the scrapping rate starts to go up and very, very few survive past 30 years. Those that do are in the hands of collectors and so on or they're rust buckets that wouldn't pass even the most basic inspection.

Statistically cars last about 20 years on average. That's the duration from first sold to scrapped, a point governments and others are well aware of when considering the ban on new sales.


----------



## qldfrog (6 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I thought that was obvious - governments generally don't stop the transfer of existing property between individuals. Rules and regulations, regarding anything, generally only apply to new product being sold (with the occasional exception due to safety).
> 
> 
> Technically they could but not in practice as a regular use vehicle.
> ...



I would also point the fact that ban for new ice sales are often going hand in hand with entry ban for local city center or whole shires.
Vote teal 
Ban already in place in some European cities for diesel or older cars.
So rural people will not be able to drive suitable cars....unless they buy unaffordable EVs on top of their useful existing ice workhorses..yes sure..
We are talking farmers AND supporting economies, the local butcher,teachers, GPs, mechanics,  good luck for EV tractors or harvesters ..
do not complain when cities start starving..but we will blaming climate change,or Putin or whoever will be the villain of the day...
And note once again that all the above could be solved using syn fuel but there is ideological reluctance at the idea that we could carry on life as usual using 0 emission fuel, there is no Reset..or extra $ profit in the right hands.
The very same people pointing to the energy cost of these.. inefficient...are often the same promoting H2 economy..which by the time it goes thru compressor or ammonia  for transport is not that better.
Take your green h2,add bloody co2 if you believe it is such a poison, do synfuel and let the whole economy run as it was before, with people still able to leverage 100y of engineering and existing assets.
That should leave plenty of time for a transition to EV, cells etc when the tech is ready for widespread universal use.
As is, it is not . Still no news here from BYD after the frog subscribed to their info stream....


----------



## Smurf1976 (6 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I would also point the fact that ban for new ice sales are often going hand in hand with entry ban for local city center or whole shires.



This.

I'm in favour of EV's from a technical and resource perspective but I see straight through such city center (etc) bans for what they are and oppose them absolutely.



Smurf1976 said:


> I thought that was obvious




Commenting on my own post that I meant to include a   there.

Didn't intend to sound condescending to the comment I was responding to. Just that yeah, I mean new cars.


----------



## Value Collector (6 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> 1/ False equivalence fallacy.
> 
> 2/ True, but with their own diesel generator



No, they don’t need a diesel generator they can be connected directly to grid with a cable.


----------



## wayneL (6 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> No, they don’t need a diesel generator they can be connected directly to grid with a cable.



A haulpak is running around with a cable attached to it? I gotta see that to believe it.


----------



## Value Collector (6 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> A haulpak is running around with a cable attached to it? I gotta see that to believe it.



Yep, it’s very common, been that way for 50 years. you can see the cable coming out of the back of this digger in the video.

Also, depending on operating conditions some electric mining trucks never ever need charging, they just run for ever with out needing to charge.


----------



## SirRumpole (6 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> *Yep, it’s very common, been that way for 50 years. you can see the cable coming out of the back of this digger in the video.*
> 
> Also, depending on operating conditions some electric mining trucks never ever need charging, they just run for ever with out needing to charge.





Isn't this a bit like saying that a diesel electric train is an electric train ?


----------



## wayneL (6 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yep, it’s very common, been that way for 50 years. you can see the cable coming out of the back of this digger in the video.
> 
> Also, depending on operating conditions some electric mining trucks never ever need charging, they just run for ever with out needing to charge.




That's not a haulpak. A digger is more or less stationary.

Additionally we do have electric trains/trams, but they run on set tracks with overhead power supply.

We're talking here about free roving vehicles relying on battery storage.

Like cars, utes, trucks and haulpaks.

At the moment it is very successful with normal passenger vehicles, recharging limitations notwithstanding.

I like battery technology, I am using it in my business with a 2kwh Li battery setup... It's awesome and far superior to a petrol generator*for how I use it*.

It does have limitations though and there are rare occasions where I need to drag out my petrol generator.

It's the heavyweight applications as noted in the above videos... Heavy towing, large trucks etcetera.

There are no electric locomotives pulling containers across the Nullarbor for a reason, they are all diesel.

Can those battery limitations be solved? That's beyond all of pay grade, but until that is solved, while I'd happily buy a Tesla to be a virtue signalling poser (and enjoy that 3 second 0-100) I'll keep my ICE work vehicle thanks.


----------



## JohnDe (6 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Some of the reasons Canada is likely to be the location for the next Gigafactory






*Toyota to invest $US5.6 billion in electric vehicle batteries.* Many projects heading into Canada & the USA, easy access to resources and stable economies.  Is Australian government & industry working to get us some action on the EV supply front?



> Japanese carmaker Toyota has announced a $US5.6 billion investment into producing batteries for the company’s transition into electric vehicles.
> 
> Production is set to begin some time between 2024 and 2026, with the funds being used to upgrade its plants in Japan and the US state of North Carolina.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (6 September 2022)

*As EVs drive a mining revolution, will Australia become a battery minerals superpower?*

If we don't, then heads should role amongst government and industry leaders.









						EV makers are so desperate for battery minerals, they're going direct to Australian mines
					

A cocktail of minerals is needed to make EV batteries and Australia has them in abundance. But will the country capitalise on its natural resources advantage?




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Value Collector (6 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> That's not a haulpak. A digger is more or less stationary.
> 
> Additionally we do have electric trains/trams, but they run on set tracks with overhead power supply.
> 
> ...



They have battery electric trucks too,

This one in Sweden can run for months or perhaps years without charging, sure beats an ice version. (FMG are current designing a train to pull off the same concept as the truck in the video, due to the fact that it’s mine is at a higher alltitude than its port, and it will leave the port empty but travel the down hill leg home ladder with a heavy load)

No one here is saying that current electric vehicles beat current ice vehicles in every situation 100% of the time, I think all most of us believe is that there are a lot of advantages, and a growing numbers of applications where they are better, despite what the angry little change fearing scarecrows from your videos think.


----------



## qldfrog (6 September 2022)

Wont be long before some of my ignore list read it on their ABC, but worthwhile linking here








						'Bold' plan to ditch 8,000 diesel buses in Sydney for electric fleet delayed by five years because of cost
					

The NSW government concedes a "bold goal" of transitioning Sydney buses from diesel to electric by 2030 is no longer possible — extending the timeline to reach net zero across the transport fleet.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## SirRumpole (6 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Wont be long before some of my ignore list read it on their ABC, but worthwhile linking here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess people are finding out that the green sky is further away than they thought.

Full marks for the intent, but maybe not enough homework done beforehand.

Who says only Labor stuffs up implementation?


----------



## qldfrog (6 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I guess people are finding out that the green sky is further away than they thought.
> 
> Full marks for the intent, but maybe not enough homework done beforehand.
> 
> Who says only Labor stuffs up implementation?



It just comes more naturally...


----------



## Sdajii (7 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Catch up 😉




Keep up yourself.

You are confusing market share/% new sales with % of the existing fleet. Only the % of the existing fleet is relevant to the impact on the electricity grid, not the % of new vehicle sales which are EVs (that figure, which you are using, is completely irrelevant to the current situation in this context).

But, hey, even if it was 5 or 10% of the current fleet being EVs already, the point would still be entirely relevant - people are already being told not to charge their cars due to infrastructure and supply issues, and the plan is to increase the total fleet percentage to multiples of that figure of EVs. Even if your figure was relevant and correct, we'd not be looking at a fractional increase in the number of EVs, we'd still be looking at multiples, and you didn't even try to address what would still be the relevant issue, but with the actual figures, it's much worse.

If you're going to tell someone else to catch up, make sure you're not currently way behind them.


----------



## Value Collector (7 September 2022)

@wayneL 

Here is a video showing some of the options for charging trucks (and could be used for trains).

As you can see there is even options for charging the trucks and trains on the go.

As the trucks drive along their route back to their unload areas they can charge by utilising over head wires to continually top up on each cycle, trains could use this concept in the crossing the Nullarbor situation you were worried about, it wouldn’t be to hard to set up some charging locations along the Nullarbor line with a few kilometres of over head wires every so often.


----------



## wayneL (7 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> @wayneL
> 
> Here is a video showing some of the options for charging trucks (and could be used for trains).
> 
> ...




That would make more sense to me, if achievable financially, and most importantly, sustainable in a maintenance sense.


----------



## Value Collector (7 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> That would make more sense to me, if achievable financially, and most importantly, sustainable in a maintenance sense.



Once set up it’s probably cheaper than paying for diesel, especially with the added cost of diesel trucks to deliver the diesel to the remote area.

In Germany they have put power lines over a motorway so trucks driving down the freeway can charge.

The possibilities are almost endless, but those scarecrow videos you like to watch will only show you negative side.


----------



## SirRumpole (7 September 2022)

Inductive car charging: What is it?
					

Sharing similarities with wireless smartphone charging, inductive charging for EVs has yet to be rolled out in a widespread manner.




					carexpert.com.au


----------



## wayneL (7 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Once set up it’s probably cheaper than paying for diesel, especially with the added cost of diesel trucks to deliver the diesel to the remote area.
> 
> In Germany they have put power lines over a motorway so trucks driving down the freeway can charge.
> 
> The possibilities are almost endless, but those scarecrow videos you like to watch will only show you negative side.




They are not scarecrow videos. They highlight technical limitations of battery powered EVs *in the Australian context*.

IOW unless the political landscape here substantively changes with regards to power, it is unlikely a meaningful large scale conversion to EVs will be achievable.

What is achievable overseas is very much less so here.


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 September 2022)

wayneL said:


> They are not scarecrow videos. They highlight technical limitations of battery powered EVs *in the Australian context*.
> 
> IOW unless the political landscape here substantively changes with regards to power, it is unlikely a meaningful large scale conversion to EVs will be achievable.
> 
> What is achievable overseas is very much less so here.



Thanks @wayneL 

Context is everything. 

Some in the Ville have Teslas, I do not envy them. 

Oh, I'm in the market for a new pre-owned Bentley, preferably an Arnage T as my man Švejk's vision is not the best and a change to a familiar model would suit him better. Should any of your horsey clients have one a laying about I'd appreciate it if you let them know. 

EV's I am very much in favour of for the metropolitan masses travelling from their little boxes to work advancing the value of my stocks, but as for a quick trip from here to Darwin or Cooloongatta they are totally insufficient. 

And Tesla owners appear to be so "common", new money, "colourful characters", not that I am a snob. 

gg


----------



## JohnDe (7 September 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> Thanks @wayneL
> 
> Context is everything.
> 
> ...




First words of a snob "not that I am a snob." 

My business is automotive related. Talk about EVs coming on line has been around for 20 years, the industry has been sending out information, news and conduction seminars intermittently since then. In the past few years there has been a marked increased in education courses & licensing certificates.

About 6 years ago we decided to look into purchasing an EV for in house testing and familiarisation, due to the increase interest and questions from customers and clients. At the time there wasn't much choice and our first look was at the Hyundai, but it wasn't quite ready, we put the idea on the back burner.

A few years back the Tesla M3 came to Australia, the pricing wasn't too bad and while we watched the price dropped. After some initial assessment and business discussion it was decided that the Tesla M3 was, at that time, the best EV for us and our crew to study and gain experience from.

With about 14 months of ownership we have had a lot of fun learning from it. We have driven country kilometers and traveled interstate with it, pulled things off and studied the parts we need to know about.

It always makes me laugh when people start telling me about the problems with an EV and how bad they are, without having driven one. 

EVs are still in the early stages, about where ICEV were when adventurous people drove them into desolate places and created competitions like the *Red X Trial*.









						First Model Y owners to do "big lap" of Australia highlight EV charging "desolation"
					

Harald Murphy and Pete Petrovsky had no illusions about the challenges as they set off - in opposite directions - on a big lap of Australia in two Tesla Model Ys.




					thedriven.io


----------



## JohnDe (7 September 2022)

New models coming - 

*UPDATED: August 30, 2022*​
Audi E-Tron GT
BMW i7
BMW iX1
BYD Atto 3
BYD Dolphin
BYD Seal
Cupra Born
Ford E-Transit
Genesis GV60
Genesis Electrified G80
Genesis Electrified GV70
GWM Ora
Hyundai Ioniq 6
Kia EV6 GT
Kia Niro Plus
Mercedes-Benz EQB
Mercedes-Benz EQE
Mercedes-Benz EQV
Mercedes-Benz eVito Tourer
MG ZS EV
Nissan Leaf
Skoda Enyaq
Subaru Solterra
Tesla Model Y
Toyota BZ4X
Volkswagen ID.4 and ID.5
Volvo C40.



> The *electric vehicle race* has well and truly started in Australia.
> It had a slow start, with minimal incentives pushing supply towards more EV-friendly regions in recent years.
> 
> Now, *over 30 new or facelifted electric vehicles are expected to arrive locally within the next two years* – and there’s still more to be announced.
> ...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (7 September 2022)

I think I would wait the extra year for the EV Bentley 2025 if I were to buy an EV. 





__





						Bentley Motors Website: World of Bentley: Beyond100: Coming this way: The Electric Bentley
					






					www.bentleymotors.com
				




gg


----------



## SirRumpole (7 September 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I think I would wait the extra year for the EV Bentley 2025 if I were to buy an EV.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm waiting for the nuclear powered model myself.


----------



## peter2 (7 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm waiting for the nuclear powered model myself.



So funny. O to 100, before your finger leaves the start button. Just be sure that you've reversed parked it in the garage.


----------



## Smurf1976 (7 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I guess people are finding out that the green sky is further away than they thought.
> 
> Full marks for the intent, but maybe not enough homework done beforehand.
> 
> Who says only Labor stuffs up implementation?



A classic case of politics getting in the way of practicality.

Moving to an EV bus fleet = good idea.

Doing it by 2030 = only if the start date was a long time before now. 

Politicians fall into two categories - those who won't get off their *** and do anything and those who are "bull at a gate" and want it done yesterday. Both fail.


----------



## JohnDe (8 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm waiting for the nuclear powered model myself.




DeLorean fusion


----------



## Value Collector (8 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I'm waiting for the nuclear powered model myself.



All Ev’s can be nuclear powered, hahaha. We just need the government to allow us to build some nukes in Australia.


----------



## JohnDe (8 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> *As EVs drive a mining revolution, will Australia become a battery minerals superpower?*
> 
> If we don't, then heads should role amongst government and industry leaders.
> 
> ...




An Australian company building batteries in Australia -


----------



## mullokintyre (9 September 2022)

Another great video. The Electric Viking is pretty gungho about this factory, lets hope the excitement is matched or better still exceeded by reality.
The only question i might have about the location of the factory is that Tomago  is surrounded on three sides by the waters of the Hunter river, which had major floods three times this year. 
 Maybe by the time it gets that close to the coast, the flooding is mitigated by its proximity to the sea.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (9 September 2022)

*Best Electric Car 2022: The verdict*​From 13 of the newest and most affordable EVs on sale in Australia, there’s only one that earns the title of Best Electric Car 2022​The future of passenger vehicles globally is electric, and while Australia has been slow on the EV uptake, that’s changing. If you have not already heard the muted whirr of an EV driving through your suburb, you will soon. Just as quickly, model choices are growing among recognised and new brands alike. EV technology and infrastructure has also quickly evolved to the point where ownership practicalities such as driving range and recharging are no longer the concerns they once were, especially for urban users. If you’re ready to make the switch, we’ve made it easy for you with carsales’ Best Electric Car 2022. So without further ado, it’s time to announce our winner…​








						Best Electric Car 2022: The verdict
					

From 13 of the newest and most affordable EVs on sale in Australia, there’s only one that earns the title of Best Electric Car 2022




					www.carsales.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (9 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Once set up it’s probably cheaper than paying for diesel, especially with the added cost of diesel trucks to deliver the diesel to the remote area.
> 
> In Germany they have put power lines over a motorway so trucks driving down the freeway can charge.
> 
> The possibilities are almost endless, but those scarecrow videos you like to watch will only show you negative side.




Yes I think Perth is going to trail electric buses.

We humans are strange creatures, constantly re inventing the wheel.


----------



## qldfrog (9 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I think Perth is going to trail electric buses.
> 
> We humans are strange creatures, constantly re inventing the wheel.
> 
> View attachment 146597



I hope at the very least they will be on wheels, not track to allow a slight degree of freedom and avoid Melbourne nightmare


----------



## JohnDe (9 September 2022)

*TEARING APART my new Ford Lightning electric truck made my mechanic WANT TO RETIRE?!?!*


----------



## sptrawler (9 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I hope at the very least they will be on wheels, not track to allow a slight degree of freedom and avoid Melbourne nightmare



What, you mean like Russia. 









						List of trolleybus systems in Russia - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Or China. 









						Trolleybuses in Shanghai - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




I remember in Perth quite a few years ago, there was a suggestion of changing over to electric trolley busses, that would use dedicated roadways, rather than putting in train services, the general public didn't like the idea, how times change.  
You never know, that may be the way of the future, it would certainly alleviate the issue of running lightly loaded trains.
When we were in St Petersburgh three, or four years ago, they had the trolley buses with the trailing arms on top, I thought at the time they looked like a good idea.


----------



## JohnDe (9 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What, you mean like Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I was in San Francisco in 2017 and saw these driving around - 









						Trolleybuses in San Francisco - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## sptrawler (9 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I was in San Francisco in 2017 and saw these driving around -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look just the same.
Australia doesn't like change, it's a bit like the Holden and Falcon story, we don't want to lose them, but we don't want to buy them.
Public transport, we need more of it, but I would rather use the car.


----------



## qldfrog (9 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> What, you mean like Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Europe was doing that too etc..so that your train is not blocked by an accident or a doubled parked car..but nowadays, the aim being to avoid car traffic, we are back to rail on dedicated corridors taken on previously existing roads:
new tramway, more congestion for cars..double win for the watermelons


----------



## qldfrog (9 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Europe was doing that too etc..so that your train is not blocked by an accident or a doubled parked car..but nowadays, the aim being to avoid car traffic, we are back to rail on dedicated corridors taken on previously existing roads:
> new tramway, more congestion for cars..double win for the watermelons



at least these do not need lithium batteries and can run during the day with cheap solar power


----------



## Telamelo (9 September 2022)

__





						Loading...
					





					www.news.com.au


----------



## JohnDe (9 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Look just the same.
> Australia doesn't like change, it's a bit like the Holden and Falcon story, we don't want to lose them, but we don't want to buy them.
> Public transport, we need more of it, but I would rather use the car.




Even Adelaide was using them in 1932.

If the world had people with imagination & foresight the world would already be using EVs for everything, and the technology would be decades old.

Instead we had/have people with blinkers. Oh well, better late than never.









						Trolleybuses in Adelaide - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Eager (9 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Australia doesn't like change, it's a bit like the Holden and Falcon story, we don't want to lose them, but we don't want to buy them.



Contradictory BS. If Australia, or rather Australians, didn't like change, they wouldn't have bought SUV's instead of sedans.


sptrawler said:


> Public transport, we need more of it, but I would rather use the car.



More contradictory BS. So why do we need more of it if you're not going to use it?

Love and kisses,

Bruce.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Public transport, we need more of it, but I would rather use the car.



Public transport has a lot in common with broadcast TV and radio.

It's a "one size fits all" approach that delivers exactly the same thing to lots of people at exactly the same time.

It's the ultimate example of the 20th Century business model - here's your curated choice of music, here's your movie, you read this news, you wear these clothes, you follow this religion, you follow this sporting code in winter and this other one in summer, you work these hours and here's your transport. That basically is the approach to business of last century - mass scale production of identical products "one size fits all".

For everyone old enough to have memories from last century, your memories are the same as everyone else your age for that exact reason. You had the same toys, you wore the same clothes, your parents worked the same hours, you listened to the same music as a teenager, you watched the same TV shows and movies, you wore the same clothes and so on. From a transport perspective that meant lots of people going to the same place at the same time which suits public transport just perfectly.

That still has some use today but it's very much waning. Today it's all about individuality and choice.

We're now in a world where everything from music to fashion to working hours are highly fragmented. We still have a few big things, we still have AFL and we still have big concerts and so on but overall fragmentation is the order of the day. Once vaunted things like music charts aren't even all that relevant to the masses anymore, it's no longer important to be doing, and more to the point seen to be doing, what everyone else is doing. It's OK to be yourself in 2022 - the "cookie cutter" days are over.

In 2022 there's far fewer people wanting to travel to and from the same place at the same time simply because there's far fewer people doing the same things at all and even for those who are, they're not doing them at the same time. We don't have tens of thousands of people all clocking on at the same big factories in the same area of the city at about the same time anymore. Basically no employer in 2022 has its own dedicated train station these days and there aren't many that even get a dedicated bus service now. Apart from city CBD's and a few major events, basically nothing else has enough people going to the same place all at once and even the CBD is losing that aspect.

That overall societal shift doesn't kill public transport outright but it does place it in the same category as broadcast TV and radio, organised religion and counting down the Top 40 songs. Still exists, it's not dead, but it's far less relevant than it used to be and for many it's lost all relevance completely.

The motor car is here to stay. How it's powered might change but it's not going away as such no matter what some may wish for. Society's fragmentation simply doesn't work without it.


----------



## qldfrog (10 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Public transport has a lot in common with broadcast TV and radio.
> 
> It's a "one size fits all" approach that delivers exactly the same thing to lots of people at exactly the same time.
> 
> ...



Fully agree but does not fit with the agendas.
And the vision of no personal cars just ubers can not be filled realistically until you get fully self driven taxis..so that is where we will be going.
Self driven, ad-hoc shared shuttle.
Obviously, better live in a city.


----------



## sptrawler (10 September 2022)

Eager said:


> Contradictory BS. If Australia, or rather Australians, didn't like change, they wouldn't have bought SUV's instead of sedans.



Exactly, the irony of it, Australia didn't want to lose the Australian car industry, but didn't buy the Holden or Ford badged SUV's in any great number. Definitely not enough to warrant retooling their factories, if there had been a public push and commitment to buy Australian, maybe the industry could have been saved.
Australians didn't want change to no car industry situation, but they weren't prepared to put their wallet where their mouth was, now ask people if they would buy a Australian made car over a Chinese, EU, U.S or Korean one and the first thing they would ask is what is the price difference. 
When the first Japanese cars were imported to Australia, it was classed as Jap crap, you wouldn't catch me dead in one of those. It wasn't long before their stubbornness was broken and now the same people ask, what did I see in those old Holdens and Falcons, push rod gas guzzlers, that leaked oil through cork rocker cover gaskets and a radio or heater was an optional extra.
 As opposed to the overhead cam Japanese Honda Civics, Toyota Crowns, with heaters, radios and bucket seats etc, Australians don't like change, but when the change was forced with the tariff removal, the stubborn negativity fell away. 


Eager said:


> More contradictory BS. So why do we need more of it if you're not going to use it?
> 
> Love and kisses,
> 
> Bruce.



Why we need more of it (public transport)?  To try and encourage more people off the roads and onto public transport to reduce congestion and emissions.
The trolley busses and trams in Perth and Adelaide wouldn't have been closed and the infrastructure torn up, if people had patronised them and kept them viable. People chose the convenience of cars and forcing them to change, back to public transport, is proving difficult.

A bit like when the Government tried to introduce Sunday trading, there was a massive public outcry about the effect it would have on family life and weekend sport, especially for youth sport and family involvement.
Now try and stop Sunday trading, the same ones who decried it, will be demanding it be maintained.
Like I said Australians generally don't like change to the status quo, once the change is enacted they adapt, it is one of the major reasons referendums don't usually pass and why Governments are reluctant to use them.

_Of forty-four referendums, there have been five instances – in 1937, twice in 1946, and once each in 1977 and 1984 – where a national Yes vote has been achieved but failed to win a majority of states. In three of these instances, the referendum received a majority in three states.
That doesn't include the recent referendum on marriage equity in Australia._

I wont disagree with your BS comment, that is one subject you are obviously proficient in, Bruce.


----------



## Eager (10 September 2022)

Turn it up, Keith. From what I've observed, you typically label ANY opinion different to yours as BS. 

Every city that ripped up their tram systems now regrets it. Some are reintroducing them. Some, like Canberra, never had them. Those systems will ultimately be successful (as long as they're not monorails, lol). Public transport patronage is driven by supply, not demand.

Love and kisses,

Bruce.


----------



## Knobby22 (10 September 2022)

Eager said:


> Turn it up, Keith. From what I've observed, you typically label ANY opinion different to yours as BS.
> 
> Every city that ripped up their tram systems now regrets it. Some are reintroducing them. Some, like Canberra, never had them. Those systems will ultimately be successful (as long as they're not monorails, lol). Public transport patronage is driven by supply, not demand.
> 
> ...



In western Europe, especially France, they have installed trams to every major and minor city with free parking at the terminus to stop the centre being crowded. So you buy your tram ticket and travel stress free while your car gets free parking (as long as you bought a tram ticket).

Melbourne now has the most tram and light rail route lines of any city in the world. Still being extended.

It is the future, along with electric bikes and standard bikes.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 September 2022)

Speaking of rail (which we shouldn't be in this thread), the Brisbane-Melbourne high speed rail link is being raised again.









						Movement at the station when it comes to fast rail plan
					

Bill for high speed rail authority put into federal parliament with eventual aim of Border stop




					www.bordermail.com.au


----------



## sptrawler (10 September 2022)

Eager said:


> Turn it up, Keith. From what I've observed, you typically label ANY opinion different to yours as BS.
> 
> Every city that ripped up their tram systems now regrets it. Some are reintroducing them. Some, like Canberra, never had them. Those systems will ultimately be successful (as long as they're not monorails, lol). Public transport patronage is driven by supply, not demand.
> 
> ...



I dont think I have ever told any poster that they are talking BS, you are obviously confusing my postings with your own.

Maybe you should search your posting history, to realise that it is a common failing of yours, to troll and deride people. Lol 
Aside from that I agree with your public transport sentiments, we use it all the time.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 September 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Melbourne now has the most tram and light rail route lines of any city in the world. Still being extended.



And it still has the overwhelming majority of passenger transport provided by cars,

Public transport has a place but it’s the equivalent of running this forum via articles in a print edition newspaper. All OK as long as your investments are buy and hold index funds or within the top 10 stocks but that’s where it ends.

Biggest problem with public transport in Australian cities is it assumes everyone wants to go to the CBD when in practice that’s a destination of diminishing relevance to which plenty have zero need to visit.

A far more typical transport journey is to a shopping centre or it’s taking the kids to play sport or it’s taking the dog to the vet or it’s visiting friends in another suburb. Public transport fails at all of those.

It has a place certainly but it’s not an alternative to cars outright or even for the majority. Cars and PT are both here to stay.


----------



## sptrawler (10 September 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> In western Europe, especially France, they have installed trams to every major and minor city with free parking at the terminus to stop the centre being crowded. So you buy your tram ticket and travel stress free while your car gets free parking (as long as you bought a tram ticket).
> 
> Melbourne now has the most tram and light rail route lines of any city in the world. Still being extended.
> 
> It is the future, along with electric bikes and standard bikes.



Spot on Knobby, I love going to Melbourne and using the public transport system, it is terrific.

With electric bikes, just bought the wife a new one for her birthday, it wasn't cheap but as usual you get what you pay for.

The first electric bikes we bought are hub drive and really not that pleasant to use, they are either on or off, when it comes to power.
The latest ones are Shimano centre drive, which works on torque assist, it is a much more natural and pleasant power delivery, you hardly notice the assist the harder you press the pedal the more the assist cuts in and it is seamless.

So I would definitely recommend if anyone was thinking of buying an electric bike, to go and try all the options, as the differences are quite pronounced.


----------



## SirRumpole (10 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> And it still has the overwhelming majority of passenger transport provided by cars,
> 
> Public transport has a place but it’s the equivalent of running this forum via articles in a print edition newspaper. All OK as long as your investments are buy and hold index funds or within the top 10 stocks but that’s where it ends.
> 
> ...




Transport of all types is being diminished by technology, eg zoom meetings, online ordering, general working from home arrangements, internet banking etc.

You can look at houses with virtual tours these days, which will eliminate a lot of those you don't like and you just travel to the ones you do.

I can see private public transport operators feeling the squeeze as time goes on, and governments will probably be running PT at a loss or more of a loss than they are now.

People will still want cars for recreation and as you pointed out , public transport is not usually an option unless you want to travel lost distances.


----------



## sptrawler (10 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> And it still has the overwhelming majority of passenger transport provided by cars,
> 
> Public transport has a place but it’s the equivalent of running this forum via articles in a print edition newspaper. All OK as long as your investments are buy and hold index funds or within the top 10 stocks but that’s where it ends.
> 
> ...



Very true smurf, also in Australia we tend to have sprawling cities, therefore low population density makes facilitating people very difficult.
In countries that have high population densities like Singapore, Japan etc it works very well and the patronage is huge.
Also affluence plays a part, in countries where vehicles are considered a luxury the public transport is usually overcrowded, again using Singapore, only the well off own vehicles.








						Hyundai i30 Price in Singapore Starts From $128,999  - $128,999 | Oto
					

Hyundai i30 Price starts at $128,999  in Singapore. Check out i30 Latest Promotions, DP & Monthly Installment and more at Oto SG.




					www.oto.com.sg
				



About $134,000 aussie

In Australia most people who are able to obtain a license, actually buy a car and can afford to run it.

Getting back on thread, I have been informed the E.V should be here by the end of the month, that will be a seven month wait.🥳


----------



## Knobby22 (10 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Spot on Knobby, I love going to Melbourne and using the public transport system, it is terrific.
> 
> With electric bikes, just bought the wife a new one for her birthday, it wasn't cheap but as usual you get what you pay for.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice SP.
Am thinking of getting one as a bike track is being upgraded that will take me into the CBD once finished, maybe faster than driving


----------



## sptrawler (10 September 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> Thanks for the advice SP.
> Am thinking of getting one as a bike track is being upgraded that will take me into the CBD once finished, maybe faster than driving



Definitely a great way to travel, we love them.
Find the electric scooters are better on public transport, the bikes are a bit bulky.
But find the electric bikes are great for getting around town and local shopping etc, yesterday we went to chemist wharehouse about 24km round trip, no problem at all the wife used 1 bar on her battery, 5 bars is a full charge. She is 5'9" and 65kg's so smaller person would use less, but I think she could get about 100km on a full charge using eco boost.
Definitely the center drive is the way to go IMO, it just really suits cycling, makes it a really pleasurable experience. All the fun, the exercise and minimal sweat.
If you don't want to pedal, then hub drive PAS is the go, but get a big battery because when you don't pedal they get through the battery charge fairly quickly.


----------



## JohnDe (11 September 2022)

Mercedes getting desperate?



> *Amazon-Backed Rivian And Mercedes-Benz Are Partnering To Make Electric Vans*
> 
> Rivian, the electric vehicle startup backed by Amazon, and Mercedes-Benz are forming a joint venture to make battery-powered vans in response to increasing demand for cleaner commercial vehicles.
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (12 September 2022)

Germany getting nervous about the cost of electricity and the knock on effects for E.V's, luckily they have already put in place legislation to effectively ban ICE engines.









						Soaring energy costs could threaten future of electric cars, experts warn
					

Industry bosses in Germany say high costs are having an impact on vehicle production and sales




					www.theguardian.com
				




According to the automobile economist Stefan Bratzel, the development is an immediate threat to the industry.

“The electricity price explosion could end up being an acute danger for vehicle transition, and we need to be damn careful about it,” he told German media.

“If electric cars become more expensive to use, the surge in electric mobility is in danger of collapsing, because hardly anyone is going to buy an electric car,” Bratzel, who is also founder of the Center for Automotive Management (CAM), said. He and other electric car advocates are now calling on the German government to ensure that the electricity price remains under the price of petrol, which they say is crucial to the future of electric cars.

Electric cars are losing their charm,” Helena Wisbert, director of the Duisburg-based Center for Automotive Research, wrote in a recent commentary for the economic daily Handelsblatt.

State subsidies of electric cars are set to halve to €4,500 (£3,900) from 2023, while buyers of plug-in hybrids, who currently receive a €6,750 payment towards them, will no longer be supported. The overall pot of money available is to be capped at €2.5bn, enough to cover bonuses for just 400,000 electric cars – less than 1% of the cars on German roads.

One suggestion that could be relatively swiftly implemented would be to increase the vehicle tax on diesel and petrol cars. Currently electric cars are not eligible for vehicle tax. They are also able to use bus lanes and parking places unavailable to non-electric cars.


----------



## JohnDe (12 September 2022)

Electric vehicle demand to drive windfall for lithium miners, say Macquarie and Barrenjoey​Lithium miners are set for an earnings windfall amid a growing demand for electric vehicles and significant supply challenges.

“The key limiting factor to greater adoption remains the development of raw materials, particularly lithium,” Mr Lawcock said.

“We think the market expects a surge in supply in 2023, which we would expect to be more tilted towards year-end and into 2024.”

Electric vehicle sales globally continue to outpace combustion vehicle sales, with China up 117 per cent in the year to July and Europe up 32 per cent in the year to June.

Mr Lawcock acknowledged the market was concerned about “rapidly slowing global economic momentum and the impact on aggregate raw materials demand”, but tipped strong electric vehicle growth would drive demand.

“While lithium is not immune, we think that electric vehicles can grow sales in an otherwise contractionary or sluggish auto market,” he said.

Macquarie notes lithium carbonate supply remains tight in China due to logistic challenges caused by lockdowns and says its preference for Australian-based lithium producers remains unchanged with Pilbara Minerals and IGO its key picks.
HAYDEN JOHNSON​


----------



## Value Collector (12 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Germany getting nervous about the cost of electricity and the knock on effects for E.V's, luckily they have already put in place legislation to effectively ban ICE engines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s weird that you don’t see similar headlines about the future of ICE cars when oil prices skyrocket.

Electricity prices rise and suddenly the EV future is gloomy, but people seem to accept the price of Oil rising as just par for the course.

A major benefit of the EV route, is that with a modest investment in solar panels, an EV owner can make their own fuel, regardless of what the market price is.


----------



## SirRumpole (12 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It’s weird that you don’t see similar headlines about the future of ICE cars when oil prices skyrocket.
> 
> Electricity prices rise and suddenly the EV future is gloomy, but people seem to accept the price of Oil rising as just par for the course.




The engineering of ICE vehicles changed a lot since the 1970's oil crisis.

The Yanks started building more compact cars , very few of these still around.


----------



## Value Collector (12 September 2022)

With Europeans scrambling to install as many solar panels as they can, And the solar industry booming as Russian gas is switched off, I think EV’s will boom.

People with solar want Ev’s, people with Ev’s want solar, they reinforce each other.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/24/...r-power-russia-gas-crisis-intl-hnk/index.html


----------



## sptrawler (12 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It’s weird that you don’t see similar headlines about the future of ICE cars when oil prices skyrocket.
> 
> Electricity prices rise and suddenly the EV future is gloomy, but people seem to accept the price of Oil rising as just par for the course.
> 
> A major benefit of the EV route, is that with a modest investment in solar panels, an EV owner can make their own fuel, regardless of what the market price is.



Yes I think the article is more about giving the European E.V sector a bit of a leg up, over this energy cost spike period, the EU car manufacturers must be finding it tough at the moment with energy costs.


----------



## Value Collector (12 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I think the article is more about giving the European E.V sector a bit of a leg up, over this energy cost spike period, the EU car manufacturers must be finding it tough at the moment with energy costs.



In 2 years the opposite problem might exist.

Europe might find itself in a massive electricity glut as the natural gas gets switch on, right as all the additional renewable projects being pushed through now come online.


----------



## sptrawler (12 September 2022)

BMW to start and source the batteries similar to the Tesla 4680's.









						BMW touts ‘technology leap’ of longer-range, faster-charging batteries
					

BMW will partner with CATL and Eve Energy to source the round cells in Europe and China, with the search for partners in North America still ongoing.




					www.mining.com
				



BMW AG plans to buy electric-vehicle batteries from six new factories to be set up and run by companies including Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Ltd. and Eve Energy Co. as the world’s biggest luxury-car maker attempts to overhaul its supply chain.





Two plants each in Europe, China and North America will produce round lithium-ion cells that enable longer ranges and faster charging than the prismatic cells BMW currently uses, the company said Friday. At roughly half the cost, the technology is meant to bolster BMW’s planned “Neue Klasse” EV platform and follows Tesla Inc., which has been using a cylindrical shape for some time.
​“We are approaching an enormous technology leap,” Frank Weber, BMW’s development chief, told reporters. He added that BMW’s suppliers have agreed to produce the cells with renewable energy only and partly use recycled cobalt, nickel and lithium to cut production-related carbon emissions by as much as 60%.

BMW will partner with CATL and Eve Energy to source the round cells in Europe and China, with the search for partners in North America still ongoing. The two American factories will be erected in a free-trade zone in the US, Canada or Mexico, BMW said. Each facility will have an annual production capacity of as much as 20 gigawatt-hours.

BMW said it has already awarded purchasing contracts worth a double-digit-billion-euro amount to CATL and Eve Energy. Part of the batteries are coming from CATL’s planned 7.3 billion euro ($7.3 billion) facility in Hungary that’s also due to supply Mercedes-Benz AG. Eve Energy will build and operate a second plant to make round cells in Europe.

Weber said Neue Klasse’s entry-level models may also use lithium iron-phosphate batteries, which are cheaper and don’t require nickel or cobalt, but offer less energy density and are heavier than the new round cells. The line’s top EVs will have a range of as much as 800 kilometers (497 miles) and charge from 10% to 80% in less than 30 minutes, he said.


----------



## JohnDe (13 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The engineering of ICE vehicles changed a lot since the 1970's oil crisis.
> 
> The Yanks started building more compact cars , very few of these still around.
> 
> View attachment 146740




I don't think that you have visited the US lately. I was there in 2017, the big 1970's style sedans are gone but roads are full of big Utes (pick-ups) and SUVs. A lot of Camry sized cars around, though the Camry of the 1980's was a lot smaller to the Camry of today.

_"Cars are getting bigger to match Americans’ desire for more space. In 2019, the Big Three U.S. automakers collectively began to abandon the small car and sedan segments because of decreasing market share. This means that more trucks, SUVs and crossovers fill Ford, General Motors, and Fiat Chrysler showrooms as these brands forecast increased demand for larger vehicles._​_However, SUVs aren’t the only large vehicles on U.S. roads. Average car size across the board is increasing._​_The country’s most popular car (the Toyota Camry), pickup truck (Ford’s F-150) and SUV/crossover (Toyota’s RAV4) each have multiple design generations and more than 25 years under their belts. Notably, these vehicles see consistent size increases each time they’re redesigned. As industry sales leaders, they set an example for other cars to follow: Bigger size means bigger demand."_​


> *Large vehicles dominate U.S. auto showrooms and highways alike.* SUVs and crossovers are extremely popular: Together, they command around 50% market share for all passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. Automakers’ decisions to eliminate sedans from their lineups directly reflects this statistic — and may cause disaster for other drivers and pedestrians by putting larger, heavier vehicles on the road.
> We surveyed more than 1,500 Americans to determine their feelings on vehicle safety. The results paint a clear picture of the shift in tastes and preferences: Americans staunchly prefer larger vehicles that cost less to insure and make them feel safer overall. We found that:
> 
> *Americans feel safest in SUVs compared to other vehicles.*
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (13 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I don't think that you have visited the US lately. I was there in 2017, the big 1970's style sedans are gone but roads are full of big Utes (pick-ups) and SUVs. A lot of Camry sized cars around, though the Camry of the 1980's was a lot smaller to the Camry of today.
> 
> ​



Yes the cars have grown in size with the average size of humans increasing, I had a mini Cooper S in the 1970's, the wife and I and two kids plus the gear for the kids fit in no problems. Now when I see a mini, I wonder how we did it. 
Then the wife reminds me I was 10stone 6lbs back then 66kg, now I'm 86kg.


----------



## SirRumpole (13 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I don't think that you have visited the US lately. I was there in 2017, the big 1970's style sedans are gone but roads are full of big Utes (pick-ups) and SUVs. A lot of Camry sized cars around, though the Camry of the 1980's was a lot smaller to the Camry of today.
> 
> _"Cars are getting bigger to match Americans’ desire for more space. In 2019, the Big Three U.S. automakers collectively began to abandon the small car and sedan segments because of decreasing market share. This means that more trucks, SUVs and crossovers fill Ford, General Motors, and Fiat Chrysler showrooms as these brands forecast increased demand for larger vehicles._​_However, SUVs aren’t the only large vehicles on U.S. roads. Average car size across the board is increasing._​_The country’s most popular car (the Toyota Camry), pickup truck (Ford’s F-150) and SUV/crossover (Toyota’s RAV4) each have multiple design generations and more than 25 years under their belts. Notably, these vehicles see consistent size increases each time they’re redesigned. As industry sales leaders, they set an example for other cars to follow: Bigger size means bigger demand."_​



Yeah, hamburgers and fries and their effects are tough to fit into compact cars.


----------



## sptrawler (13 September 2022)

Twiggies acquisition of Williams might actually be on a winner, as companies try and rationalise costs to transition to E.V's.









						Williams Advanced Engineering: Australian-owned company reveals 1650kW electric hypercar chassis
					

Williams Advanced Engineering has unveiled the basis of a new 1650kW electric hypercar, with the Australian-owned firm targeting established car makers as its key clients.




					www.drive.com.au
				




UK-based firm *Williams Advanced Engineering* (WAE) – owned by Australian iron ore mining company *Fortescue Metals Group *(FMG) – has revealed a new electric hypercar platform, set to enter production in 2024.
Williams Advanced Engineering is a former subsidiary of the Williams Formula One racing team, and was acquired by FMG earlier this year for $310 million.
The WAE *EVR* is a ready-built electric-car platform which car makers of any size can purchase from the engineering company, rather than investing in the development of their own bespoke architectures – similar to the company's EVX platform revealed last year.

The EVR’s modular platform has been developed to cater for various hypercar configurations, from open or fixed-roof layouts to track-only machines.
According to WAE, the *EVR* can be purchased in either rear- or all-wheel drive layouts, with the latter developing up to 1650kW from its four electric motors.
Williams Advanced Engineering claims the EVR is capable of accelerating from zero to 100km/h in less than two seconds – providing the company which uses the platform can keep the vehicle's kerb weight below 1800kg.
Mounted in the middle of the EVR’s lightweight composite chassis is an 85kWh lithium-ion battery, delivering a claimed driving range of more than 450km with the ability to fast-charge in less than 20 minutes.
Williams Advanced Engineering is the supplier of the batteries used in Formula E, the world's premier open-wheel electric racing series.
The UK engineering firm is also developing a hydrogen-powered variant dubbed the EVR-H, with the car’s fuel cell designed to drop in place of the existing battery pack.


----------



## JohnDe (13 September 2022)

> EVs Catching On Faster Than Expected; Ford Telling Dealers to Cut Costs​0:08 Russia Threatens EU Industrial Base
> 1:02 Ford Tells Dealers to Cut $2,000 In Delivery Costs
> 1:53 Honda To Reveal Smart ADAS
> 3:13 Lincoln Corsair Gets Mid-Cycle Refresh
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (13 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Germany getting nervous about the cost of electricity and the knock on effects for E.V's, luckily they have already put in place legislation to effectively ban ICE engines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This may help answer some questions - 



> *EVs are going mainstream... Are we ready for it?*
> 
> Across the world EV adoption is increasing, but in some regions either markets, or infrastructure are struggling to keep up. Arthur D. Little, a large business consulting firm looked at EV readiness across the world, comparing them all to a benchmark state of it being as easy to buy and live with an EV as it is to live with a conventionally powered vehicle. So - are we ready for mainstream EVs or are we lagging behind? Kate finds out...


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> One suggestion that could be relatively swiftly implemented would be to increase the vehicle tax on diesel and petrol cars.



Trouble with that is it's a kick straight in the face to lower income earners especially.

I wouldn't call myself a socialist but some balance is needed. People do need to be able to afford it and many won't be driving an EV this side of 2035 at the earliest.

I'm firmly of the view that existing ICE cars ought remain fully usable, without politicians coming up with artificial costs and so on, for the remainder of their lifespan for that reason.


----------



## Smurf1976 (13 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> People with solar want Ev’s, people with Ev’s want solar, they reinforce each other.



Whether it works really depends on the individual though.

An awful lot of cars aren't parked at home during solar production times. They're either in use or they're parked somewhere else. 

Technically that can be worked around but financially not so easy to use your own generated electricity to charge the car.


----------



## Value Collector (13 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Whether it works really depends on the individual though.
> 
> An awful lot of cars aren't parked at home during solar production times. They're either in use or they're parked somewhere else.
> 
> Technically that can be worked around but financially not so easy to use your own generated electricity to charge the car.



I would say most cars are parked during peak solar times, sure some of them won’t be parked at home but they will probably be parked somewhere they could be charging. That away from home charging will cost money, but the credits your home solar is earning can help offset that.

Or, you can just charge at night using some of the credits you earned selling your solar production during the day.

The main point I am saying is that if your electricity bill rises either because prices go up or you start charging a car at home, it’s natural to begin looking at solar to reduces those expenses. Once you have solar, most people will want to use that as much as they can to charge their car, whether that’s on the weekend or any other time they can have their car plugged in while the sun is up.


----------



## sptrawler (13 September 2022)

Tesla Model Y price to fall with next-generation 4680 battery – report
					

Tesla’s advanced next-generation battery is expected to provide more range and power at a lower cost, once its availability is expanded – providing the electric-car giant can overcome production setbacks.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Smurf1976 (14 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I would say most cars are parked during peak solar times, sure some of them won’t be parked at home but they will probably be parked somewhere they could be charging. That away from home charging will cost money, but the credits your home solar is earning can help offset that.



In an engineering sense it works perfectly.

In a financial sense however it doesn't achieve what many are seeking to do, that being to avoid paying electricity network charges. Only way you'll do that requires, in practice, that the car's parked wherever the solar panels you own are located.

Now I say that being fully aware that there are some rather large distortions in network pricing to start with but that's another story. The "use your own solar" basically is an attempt to get around network pricing which only works if you do in fact avoid using the network.

Bit like being offered free parking - only works economically if you do in fact wish to park in that location. Physically though, well you can use any car park just pay for it and all good. Same concept.


----------



## qldfrog (14 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> In an engineering sense it works perfectly.
> 
> In a financial sense however it doesn't achieve what many are seeking to do, that being to avoid paying electricity network charges. Only way you'll do that requires, in practice, that the car's parked wherever the solar panels you own are located.
> 
> ...



That's why my sceptical view on ev is actually not selfish, i belong ro some of the few people who could benefit from ev.plenty of panels, producing twice as much as consuming and at home for charging and yet ,even with no cost at all for recharge, still. Ot making sense economically, and not even considering fit for purpose


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## JohnDe (14 September 2022)

The savings after 30 days, charging overnight and not including the feed in tariff - 




20,000km travelled and $0 service cost. It is due for a tyre rotation this weekend, and I'm thinking about changing the Cabin Filter early.


----------



## Value Collector (14 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> In an engineering sense it works perfectly.
> 
> In a financial sense however it doesn't achieve what many are seeking to do, that being to avoid paying electricity network charges. Only way you'll do that requires, in practice, that the car's parked wherever the solar panels you own are located.
> 
> ...



As I said though, most people can still use their own solar at some stage through out the week, eg week ends.

And, whether they use their own solar directly, or just use the credits they earn doesn’t really matter to most people, I mean if they earn $5 in solar credits today, and charge with $5 of power tonight, the end result is they topped their car up without raising their electricity bill.


----------



## sptrawler (14 September 2022)

More people starting to see the crazy situation happening with batteries, where we are missing the opportunity to develop a business and instead exporting all the materials so some other country can value add and send the end product back to us.
I wonder if Tesla will go one step further and build a gigafactory here? It would certainly be interesting if a conglomerate went in with Tesla for an Australian battery manufacturing industry. 









						Australia could revive its car industry with EV, says Tesla chair
					

Robyn Denholm says Australia should revive its auto industry by making batteries and electric vehicles to meet soaring global demand and help speed up the transition from petrol and diesel cars.




					www.smh.com.au
				



*Tesla chair Robyn Denholm* says Australia should revive its auto industry by making batteries and electric vehicles to meet soaring global demand and help speed up the transition from petrol and diesel cars.
Denholm said Tesla and others needed more batteries as soon as possible to support the shift to electric vehicles and renewable power projects. The demand gives Australia a chance to build a new industry on its supply of raw materials, she added.


----------



## mullokintyre (14 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> On Friday, despite the cancelling of late 2022 manufactured deliveries we  re signed for the Volvo XC40, but the new model with slightly longer range designated a MY23 build.
> We did not have to put a further 5k down as deposit, and it is due in November.
> Our biggest problem is that there are no fast chargers between where we live and Melbourne without doing some detours to get to Euroa.
> Plug share shows a few 10 amp wall chargers, but I can't park for ten hours while it recharges.
> ...



We got another email from Volvo saying the delivery had been pushed back until May 2023.
This now the third  date we have been givebn, with no guarantee there will not be others.
So that will be a year that Volvo have had our money.
Might ask for interest.
I also ordered a BYD Atto 3 when they came out.
Got an email from them to say that the car has been produced and is now waiting shipment.
Looks like we may end up cancelling the Volvo if the BYD arrives much sooner.
Mick


----------



## qldfrog (15 September 2022)

S. Korean Scientists Develop New Material That Produces 20 Times More Hydrogen Than Traditional Methods
					

South Korean researchers have found a way to produce hydrogen more cheaply using materials for the electrolysis process that cost a lot less than the standard




					fuelcellsworks.com
				



Some development pushing the H2 cause..but also syn fuel and h2 cell more than heavy and expensive lithium batteries


----------



## Smurf1976 (15 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> And, whether they use their own solar directly, or just use the credits they earn doesn’t really matter to most people,



It is however a very different argument and essentially a different thing.

Generating bulk electricity and selling it at one price, say 5 cents / kWh, then buying it at 20 cents / kWh to charge your EV.

Technically there's nothing at all wrong with that.

Financially it's the business model of the networks, somewhat flawed but it is what it is.

It does however thwart the "use your own solar" argument since you're not actually doing that unless the car is in fact parked where the panels are and on the same electricity meter.

That's not an argument for or against EV's. It's just saying that for a relatively large portion of consumers the idea of generating their own power to charge it with simply isn't an option. For some it will be but for many it's not.


----------



## JohnDe (15 September 2022)

The future -


----------



## JohnDe (15 September 2022)




----------



## Value Collector (15 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> It is however a very different argument and essentially a different thing.
> 
> Generating bulk electricity and selling it at one price, say 5 cents / kWh, then buying it at 20 cents / kWh to charge your EV.
> 
> ...



As I said though, it shouldn’t be to hard for most people to actually use their solar once a week, and in the mean time generating credits is better than not generating credits.


----------



## sptrawler (15 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> As I said though, it shouldn’t be to hard for most people to actually use their solar once a week, and in the mean time generating credits is better than not generating credits.



In W.A the feed in tariff is finished for people who now install solar, so really it makes sense to buy a cheap E.V as a runaround, when the car requires replacing especially when the V2G/V2H is introduced. 
In W.A with the charging infrastructure issues, we have decided that if we want to do an unusually long trip we will just rent a car for the occasion, as family has moved a lot closer the long trips will be few and far between.
I'm a bit surprised that the unions don't include E.V charging in their wage negotiations, I think a lot of companies would jump at it, win/win the workers get free charging and the company gets free PR. I don't think it would even be traded against the wage, a lot of companies would chuck it in as a freebe IMO.


----------



## mullokintyre (16 September 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> I think I would wait the extra year for the EV Bentley 2025 if I were to buy an EV.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You could always downgrade to a mere Roller.
Rolls Ev
Rolls-Royce Spectre will be one of the most luxurious electric vehicle in history. In this article, we will try to give in-depth info regarding what we know about the Rolls-Royce Spectre in September 2022.



> 117 years after the development of the first Rolls-Royce, British cult brand Rolls-Royce has taken perhaps the most radical step into its future, turning to electric drive. In September 2021, the Rolls-Royce Spectre was officially unveiled and began road testing. The ultra-luxury EV heralds a new era for the brand.



mick


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## Garpal Gumnut (16 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> You could always downgrade to a mere Roller.
> Rolls Ev
> Rolls-Royce Spectre will be one of the most luxurious electric vehicle in history. In this article, we will try to give in-depth info regarding what we know about the Rolls-Royce Spectre in September 2022.
> 
> ...



A mere Roller, Mick, as you say.

Without wishing to seem snobbish ( @JohnDe will attest I am not ) , Rollers are so common.

gg


----------



## sptrawler (16 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> We got another email from Volvo saying the delivery had been pushed back until May 2023.
> This now the third  date we have been givebn, with no guarantee there will not be others.
> So that will be a year that Volvo have had our money.
> Might ask for interest.
> ...



I ordered the Kona on March 1st, apparently I can pick it up on the 27th Sept, so it is a long wait for just about anything.


----------



## JohnDe (16 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> More people starting to see the crazy situation happening with batteries, where we are missing the opportunity to develop a business and instead exporting all the materials so some other country can value add and send the end product back to us.
> I wonder if Tesla will go one step further and build a gigafactory here? It would certainly be interesting if a conglomerate went in with Tesla for an Australian battery manufacturing industry.
> 
> 
> ...




Possibly a once in a generation opportunity.

_The Australian tech executive, whose net worth is estimated to be $688 million from her position on the board of the world’s biggest electric vehicle company, said the shift to the new industry could be achieved without government incentives to subsidise manufacturing._​​_“Australia is in a unique position because we have the minerals here that other countries don’t have,” she told the National Press Club on Wednesday._​​_“The supply chains for the electric vehicle and the lithium-ion storage batteries that are key for renewable energy are being formed now. That’s why I think it’s a unique opportunity._​​_“I do think the private sector and government need to work together. I don’t think that incentives are required because most business people will see the exponential growth that’s going to happen over the next period of time in those minerals._​​_“And moving up the value chain is important for job creation but it’s also important in terms of the economics that can be yielded with that. And that’s why, from my perspective, the time to act on that is now.”_​


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (16 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Possibly a once in a generation opportunity.
> 
> _The Australian tech executive, whose net worth is estimated to be $688 million from her position on the board of the world’s biggest electric vehicle company, said the shift to the new industry could be achieved without government incentives to subsidise manufacturing._​​_“Australia is in a unique position because we have the minerals here that other countries don’t have,” she told the National Press Club on Wednesday._​​_“The supply chains for the electric vehicle and the lithium-ion storage batteries that are key for renewable energy are being formed now. That’s why I think it’s a unique opportunity._​​_“I do think the private sector and government need to work together. I don’t think that incentives are required because most business people will see the exponential growth that’s going to happen over the next period of time in those minerals._​​_“And moving up the value chain is important for job creation but it’s also important in terms of the economics that can be yielded with that. And that’s why, from my perspective, the time to act on that is now.”_​



This is where we need some body like the old CSIRO to be fully funded, on a wartime like footing, to develop a battery, EV, Solar, Hydrogen and RE Commodity Exchange. 

Our private sector minus Twiggy doesn't have the balls or the means to take on risk. 

gg


----------



## JohnDe (16 September 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> This is where we need some body like the old CSIRO to be fully funded, on a wartime like footing, to develop a battery, EV, Solar, Hydrogen and RE Commodity Exchange.
> 
> Our private sector minus Twiggy doesn't have the balls or the means to take on risk.
> 
> gg





Strategic Elements SOR?

_Strategic Elements operates as a venture builder where it generates ventures and projects from combining teams of leading scientists or innovators in the technology or resources sectors._​​_Strategic Elements operates as a registered Pooled Development Fund (PDF) on the Australian Stock Exchange under the code ‘SOR’._​​_Under the Federal Government PDF program our investors pay no tax on capital gains or dividends to compensate for the higher risk of investing in small and medium sized companies._​








						About - Strategic Elements
					

Strategic Elements operates as a Pooled Development Fund (PDF). An Australian Federal Government program designed to encourage innovation and investment into Australian companies.     Strategic Elements operates as a venture builder where it generates ventures and projects from combining teams...




					www.strategicelements.com.au


----------



## JohnDe (16 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> How many batteries required to be waiting in storage?
> 
> What is the cost off a 'swap station'?
> 
> ...




Back in late March we had a bit of a debate about battery swap technology, further information has come out -


----------



## mullokintyre (16 September 2022)

The video below shows some interesting EV development by Volvo  for smaller type agricultural/loader equipment.
Was always going to happen.
but what I found most enlightening was the portable charging unit  from beam.
See Beam Portable off grid chargers
Has an interesting discussion about post mainstream life of the battery packs.
They can have a secondary life  after being changed out.
Probably only the first half is relevant to most  ASF members.


Mick


----------



## rcw1 (18 September 2022)

Good morning JohnDe
I found this article in todays (18/09/22) Sunday Mail, thought it may interest you:

PREMIER HOPING FOR TESLA

Stephanie Bennett

PREMIER Annastacia Palaszczuk says she would welcome global tech giant Tesla to Queensland, after Australia’s most senior executive suggested the company wanted to open a local manufacturing plant.
Speaking at the National Press Club this week, Tesla chief Robyn Denholm said the electric car manufacturing could reinvigorate the sector.
“We have the skills and we can retool and get people into advanced manufacturing,” she said. “No country has more to gain from the world moving to electric vehicles than Australia. We can be a renewable energy superpower.”
Asked whether she would welcome Tesla to Queensland, Ms Palaszczuk was enthusiastic. “I would love Tesla to come to Queensland,” she said.
“In fact I think it was either 2016 or 2017 I went to the big factory they were building out at Nevada. So happy to facilitate any discussions there.”
Ms Denholm said Australia was one of the few countries in the world with all the “critical minerals” required to create lithium ion batteries.
“Tesla spends $1bn a year on Australian minerals, and the demand is growing rapidly,” she said. “However, Australia is missing out on much of the value-add from this supply chain because, to date, the focus has been shipping the raw materials offshore.”


----------



## JohnDe (18 September 2022)

rcw1 said:


> Good morning JohnDe
> I found this article in todays (18/09/22) Sunday Mail, thought it may interest you:
> 
> PREMIER HOPING FOR TESLA
> ...




Thanks rcw1. Sounds great, that the QLD Premier is open to ideas.

_Asked whether she would welcome Tesla to Queensland, Ms Palaszczuk was enthusiastic. “I would love Tesla to come to Queensland,” she said._​_“In fact I think it was either 2016 or 2017 I went to the big factory they were building out at Nevada. So happy to facilitate any discussions there.”_​
The next step is allocating responsibility to the relevant Ministries to meet & discuss with industry leaders in Australia, prepare the ground work. Armed with the information, the Premier should sit down with Robyn Deholm, who appears to be ready to stand up for Australia, and come up with a battle plan. There are many countries that want a gigafactory, and their governments are working with their industries.

Come on Australian leadership, look 50 years into the future & see what needs to be done now.


----------



## sptrawler (18 September 2022)

Australian electric motor breakthrough promises boost in electric-car driving range
					

A compact, high-revving electric motor developed by Australian researchers is claimed to be a game changer for the driving range of electric vehicles.




					www.drive.com.au
				




A high-speed electric motor developed by researchers at the University of NSW in Sydney could increase the driving range of some electric cars by up to 10 per cent.
It is said to be smaller, lighter and cheaper than units currently in use and could be commercialised in less than a year.
Its designers claim a number of advantages, from the motor's high spinning speed of 100,000 revolutions a minute, to greater internal strength and smaller external size.
It also promises to use less of the rare earth minerals consumed to produce electric motors.

Apart from the motors used in electric cars, it could also be used for the compressors in heating and cooling systems, high-precision industrial milling machines, and generators used in aircraft.
The university research team has two fully-developed and tested prototypes of its 5kW motor and is looking to move towards production.
“The motor's reduced weight and improved efficiency could contribute to an extended range of around 5-10 per cent longer.”
Research by the team points to a 50 per cent reduction in manufacturing costs, based on materials' costs, and also because the new motor does not need the internal strengthening of existing designs.
“The two 100,000rpm (revs-per-minute) 5kW prototypes have already been fully tested and verified, which makes this high-speed motor design technology ready for production in applications with similar power and speed requirements,” he said.
“It will take approximately six months to 1.5 years of additional research and development [R&D] to be ready for production in other application fields. The length of the R&D period depends on the new application's power, speed, and performance requirements.
“We are actively looking for opportunities to commercialize the motor with help from the UNSW Knowledge Exchange department. And we are open to all sorts of ways to commercialize the IP (Intellectual Property) or build collaborations,” said Dr Chu.


----------



## sptrawler (18 September 2022)

At last the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has arrived, it is definitely worth considering for those who like out of town IMO.









						2022 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Aspire review
					

The Mitsubishi Outlander range once again stocks a plug-in hybrid powertrain, but is it the right choice for Australians?




					www.drive.com.au
				




According to Mitsubishi, the Outlander PHEV runs *1.5L/100km* on a combined fuel cycle using both petrol and electric power, but our use after roughly 50km was *0.6L/100km*. Once the 20kWh battery drains, the fuel use jumped to 5.3L/100km. These figures were gathered on a short press drive, so arguably not the most representative of a typical-use case.
When it comes to charging up the 20kWh battery, Mitsubishi quotes a 9.5-hour 0–100 per cent charge time on a domestic 240V outlet, 6.5-hour charge time using a domestic wallbox, and a 38-minute 0–80 per cent charge time on DC charging
It also gets vehicle-to-load capabilities that enable the Outlander to act as a mobile battery pack powering things such as camping equipment. All model grades in the line-up are powered by a tweaked version of the previous powertrain – a *naturally aspirated 2.4-litre four-cylinder engine*. Together with electric outputs (which we’ll discuss more soon), the Outlander PHEV sends *185kW/450Nm* to *all four wheels*
That’s not the only way you can charge the battery either – the on-board generator is able to charge the car from 0–80 per cent in 1.5 hours. Both front and rear electric motors can act as generators to send power back to the battery too.
On the Aspire grade and up, the car comes with two three-pin power points that provide 1500 watts of vehicle-to-load power. This works much the same as we’ve seen in cars like the Hyundai Ioniq 5, whereby you can power items like a coffee machine, camping equipment, or a laptop charger.
Mitsubishi is also one of the few manufacturers to offer vehicle-to-grid and vehicle-to-home capabilities, which can send the battery’s power back to the grid or to a home. However, this capability isn’t yet available, waiting on the commercial release of the Wallbox Quasar bidirectional charger.
The petrol engine only fires up when you properly put your foot down or the vehicle eclipses 135km/h. To dictate how the vehicle drives, there’s a whopping seven driving modes to choose from, as well as four EV driving modes. I spent most time in the Normal EV mode, which primarily uses battery power.
With *85kW/100kW* outputs from the *front/rear motors* respectively, the Outlander has a decent amount of shove off the line, but builds speed quickly the longer you hold the accelerator.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 September 2022)

Can anyone comment on the practicality or othewise of buying a ev overseas then importing it ?


----------



## mullokintyre (18 September 2022)

I have imported two US made cars from USA in the past. 
The issue is of course getting them registered/insured  to run in OZ.
I have only registered one , and it is on club rego, for cars more than 25 years old.
Newer cars may need more paperwork, like engineers reports.
If they are RHD vehicles may be easier.
LFD may be limited to club use or special permit use ( cranes, agricultural/industrial equipment).
Not much  I know.
.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (18 September 2022)




----------



## sptrawler (19 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Can anyone comment on the practicality or othewise of buying a ev overseas then importing it ?



I would guess that the main problem would be that it would probably be dearer than buying one here.
The reason being that the 'grey car' market was mainly the importing of second hand RHD, these usually came from Japan and Singapore from memory, the issue was in those countries the rego became dearer and dearer as the cars aged so it quickly became too expensive to register them for the road. This was due to smog tests, which were expensive and if they failed they had to repay to re test, it was cheaper to put in a new motor for the smog test than to fail it and have to re test.
With E.V's I would guess this will no longer be an issue, therefore the supply of older second hand cars will diminish and as they are more expensive to buy new over there the financials wouldn't stack up.
A Hyundai Kona here is around $60k, in Singapore they cost about $130k, in Japan they are about the same price as here.





__





						Hyundai Kona Electric Limited 2022 Price In Japan , Features And Specs - Ccarprice  JPY
					

Latest Hyundai Kona Electric Limited 2022 price in Japan 2020 and detail specs, Get Market Rate of Hyundai Kona Electric Limited 2022 online before buying Hyundai Kona Electric Limited 2022 in jp




					www.ccarprice.com
				












						Updated Hyundai Kona Hybrid and EV now on sale in Singapore –...
					

Hyundai’s updated Kona Hybrid and Electric crossovers are now on sale in Singapore, featuring new designs and enhanced safety features




					carbuyer.com.sg


----------



## sptrawler (19 September 2022)

Obviously E.V charging equipment breakdowns isn't just restricted too W.A, or is it the media being as negative as possible? I guess the fact that an Australian company has got a toe in the U.S, is secondary. 🤣 








						Australian company boosting Biden’s electric car agenda under scrutiny
					

Complaints about Tritium come as Biden talked up the transition to electric vehicles in Detroit, where he announced funding to build EV charging stations in 35 states.




					www.theage.com.au
				



Brisbane-based Tritium has risen to prominence in America over the past few months after Biden showcased the company in Washington as part of his broader economic strategy to get more manufacturers to build in the US and bolster the nation’s electric vehicle (EV) network

But three weeks after Tritium opened a new production plant in Tennessee, which Biden hopes will help him “electrify the great American road trip”, concerns have been raised by drivers who say that Tritium’s chargers in Australia are often broken and take months to repair.

“Finding one that works, particularly in the last eight months or so, has been a real problem,” said medical writer Greg Noonan, who drives a Tesla and works part-time as an Uber driver on the Gold Coast.
“There were some that were out of action for four months. Imagine if you went to a petrol station – the only one in your area – and it had no pumps available for four months. It’s not acceptable. If they can’t keep our chargers going, what hope does America have if things start going wrong?”

Tritium did not respond to questions from _The Sydney Morning Herald_ and _The Age_ about the concerns, many of which have also been raised by other motorists on the EV charging station app, Plugshare.

“Still out of service, hello Tritium,” wrote one driver, John, at an east coast charging station last week. “The hardware was broken,” wrote another. “Unit not communicating. Rang through and couldn’t get it going"


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## SirRumpole (19 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Obviously E.V charging equipment breakdowns isn't just restricted too W.A, or is it the media being as negative as possible? I guess the fact that an Australian company has got a toe in the U.S, is secondary. 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When Uncle Joe starts riding around in a Kona instead of that beast of his, I'll believe he's serious.


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## mullokintyre (19 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> When Uncle Joe starts riding around in a Kona instead of that beast of his, I'll believe he's serious.



You talking about that bicycle he fell from?
Mick


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## SirRumpole (19 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> You talking about that bicycle he fell from?
> Mick



I suppose it's good he's riding a bike, if he has trouble with getting his leg over he could try an electric scooter.


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## qldfrog (19 September 2022)

I just want current or tentative EV buyers to be aware:
This is a key change of scale, and if price remains sensible, can be a real alternative to ICE..for a limited audience/transition
And this is not a lab or research facility talk








						CATL's groundbreaking Qilin battery pack promises a 621-mile range for EVs
					

CATL's new generation battery will not only address range anxieties but also charging rate worries that potential EV owners may have




					interestingengineering.com
				



Real market ready ..and yeap not Tesla but China..who would have guessed


----------



## sptrawler (20 September 2022)

As we said @JohnDe , infrastructure is the issue, not subsidising more cars.





__





						Loading...
					





					www.theaustralian.com.au
				



The issue of on-street electrical vehicle charging is becoming more prevalent as bizarre scenes continue to emerge throughout Sydney.
A photo shared by 2GB on Tuesday morning showed the extreme lengths an electric vehicle owner has gone to at their Millers Point townhouse.

A long yellow extension cord extends from their second storey home, across the balcony and into a tree
The cable is wrapped around the tree’s branches and nearby bushes before ending at a power board hanging loosely in the air.

From that power board, a black charger snakes its way down the tree trunk, through the gutter and into the car.
“The man who took the photo says to us, ‘I was walking down the street to go into work. I couldn‘t believe my eyes,’” he said.

“He said, ‘It looked like a street in Vietnam; how it’s legal is beyond me.’”

It comes after 2GB shared images and vision of a similar scene on a suburban Manly street on Friday morning.

A long orange power cable snaked its way all the way down from a home to a car parked out on the street.

The cord was long enough that it stretched from the house, down the front steps, along the driveway, across the fence and onto the footpath before reaching the road and car.

A cable protector was placed on the footpath to shield the cord, while it appears it is looped around the fence when it is not in use.




Parking Australia chief executive Stuart Norman said it was a serious issue impacting millions across the country.

“We know that on-street charging is an issue for about three million Australian households,” he told NCA NewsWire last week.

“People plug-in their car in the same way they plug their phone in. We know from people who have a driveway and garage that’s exactly what they do.

“But people who don’t have a driveway can’t do that.”

Mr Norman has tried to raise his ideas and concerns with strategy makers and politicians, such as Energy Minister Chris Bowen and Teal MP Monique Ryan.

Mr Norman openly said “most of them are gonna get it wrong; we’ve tried to engage with political leaders on this and we’ve had several that are just too busy to even meet with us”.

“We want to engage with political leaders to tell them how it can be done; otherwise they’re gonna make mistakes.

“There’s a lack of understanding of the electrical distribution network and a lack of understanding of people’s habits.”


----------



## qldfrog (20 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As we said @JohnDe , infrastructure is the issue, not subsidising more cars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



how is it legal? it is not and the BC could be all over the owner, I would raise the alarm if I belonged to that BC or even the neighbour


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## JohnDe (20 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As we said @JohnDe , infrastructure is the issue, not subsidising more cars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Easy solutions, if councils and governments worked with business and homeowners.

I came up with two ideas, one is already in use -

1) *Siemens converts all lamp posts on residential street to electric car chargers*



UK, tech giant Siemens and electric vehicle charging solutions provider ubitricity have converted all the lamp posts on a central London residential street into “hidden” electric vehicle chargers.​​The street in question – the near kilometre-long Sutherland Avenue in Westminster – now has 24 converted lamp posts along the length of the avenue, bringing the number of lamp post charging points in Westminster City to almost 300.​
2) *Footpath Socket Pillar* (No examples in use for street)

Owner of property pays for the installation of pole with electrical socket, which is put near the edge of the curb. The electricity is for personal use, a lock is fitted, council fee applies as an addition to property rates.​


Example only. Final item would be taller, one or multiple sockets for multiple homes with only off-street parking, locking device for power socket.​


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## sptrawler (20 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> how is it legal? it is not and the BC could be all over the owner, I would raise the alarm if I belonged to that BC or even the neighbour




Until someone gets a handle on it.
I can imagine it now, call out an electrician, "help my charger isn't working, can you fix it, I think it has lost the supply"?


----------



## Smurf1976 (20 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The issue of on-street electrical vehicle charging is becoming more prevalent as bizarre scenes continue to emerge throughout Sydney.



As a couple of random comments:

I don't have figures for anywhere in Australia but in the US state of Tennessee about 45% of homes park cars at a location to which power is readily available. That's from a proper survey conducted across a statistically sufficient number of properties, supported by government and the local utilities, so should be accurate. So from that it seems about half can be charged easily and about half can't (bearing in mind that the survey results included homes with no car, so 45% of homes is very close to half of the homes with a car).

How that relates to Australia I'm not sure but gut feel tells me it won't be hugely different. For reference the largest city (on a "greater metropolitan" basis) in Tennessee is Nashville with population of 2 million so directly comparable to Perth or Brisbane. Second largest is Memphis with population of 1.325 million so directly comparable to Adelaide. Total state population is 6.77 million. So it's not a high density "big city" sort of place really, there's a lot of freestanding homes much as we have in Australia it's not all high rises etc.

On the question of charging from streetlights, that one is very much an "it depends" situation.

There are certainly existing streetlights where it could be added quite easily. Plenty of capacity is available and supply is on 24 hours per day.

There are also streetlights with power not supplied, at all, when it's daylight and which have no spare electrical capacity at all when the lights are on. They have zero potential to add a charger without major works to replace cables which may itself require installing new conduit (so digging up the street).

So it's highly dependent on local circumstances. There are differences between Australian states (eg the older suburbs of Hobart, including the CBD, with it's centrally switched system and pilot lines), there are differences in terms of how much spare current carrying capacity exists and so on. Even within the same suburb it can be inconsistent. Then there's the existence of ripple control in Qld and NSW and the potential to apply that.

That said.... For overhead lines where there's a 230/400V supply available well in most situations it wouldn't be difficult to put a charger on the pole so long as it can all be externally mounted and the relevant transformer has sufficient capacity. Where it does become difficult though is that in many cases the pole isn't in a useful spot for charging vehicles, indeed in some states poles have very intentionally been placed on property boundaries etc historically wherever possible. 

So it varies.


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## sptrawler (21 September 2022)

Sounds as though China isn't happy that the U.S is starting to upscale manufacturing.








						China Sends a Warning to the U.S. About Domestic EV Battery Production
					

China's Ambassador to the U.S. warned against cutting the superpower out of the EV supply chain.




					www.gizmodo.com.au


----------



## SirRumpole (21 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Sounds as though China isn't happy that the U.S is starting to upscale manufacturing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How dare the US manufacture its own batteries ! That's China's job to get as much income as it can and spend it on weapons.


----------



## JohnDe (21 September 2022)

Opportunity like this doesn't happen very often. A chance for us to not only sell our resources but to process and manufacutre.



> *‘Logical sense’: Hint of Elon Musk’s plans for Australia*
> _Australia’s most senior Tesla executive has dropped a big hint about what Elon Musk could do Down Under._
> 
> Australia’s most senior Tesla executive has hinted the electric vehicle giant could open a local manufacturing plant.
> ...


----------



## SirRumpole (21 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Opportunity like this doesn't happen very often. A chance for us to not only sell our resources but to process and manufacutre.




It would be fantastic if it comes off.

Fingers crossed.


----------



## sptrawler (21 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It would be fantastic if it comes off.
> 
> Fingers crossed.



There should still be a lot of car production equipment still located in Australia, HSV, Tickford etc would be a likely partner I would gues, as they could source suppliers and labour quickly, so it certainly is a possibility IMO.


----------



## sptrawler (21 September 2022)

The manufacturers starting to explain the reality, to the politicians, whether they listen or not is another question.








						The world isn’t ready to go fully electric, BMW and Bosch CEOs warn – report
					

Industry bosses from BMW and Bosch say diversification is the only path out from internal-combustion engines.




					www.drive.com.au
				



*As Europe faces a looming gas energy crisis*, giants of Germany’s automotive industry are *warning against the complete adoption of electric vehicles as the sole means of mass transportation.*
The CEO of BMW, Oliver Zipse, says Europe isn’t ready for a hard cut-off of petrol and diesel engines, telling attendees at the carmaker’s Innovation Day event last week his company thinks "it's wrong to switch off the combustion engine in Europe".
"The industry will look different in terms of scale and structure than it does today if it goes to just one technology," Mr Zipse said, according to German business magazine _Wirtschaftswoche_.
The comments echo those by Japanese car giant Toyota and US automaker Ford who say motorists will still need a choice of what powers vehicles of the future, because not every country is rolling out electric tech at the same speed – and the world's energy mining resources would be overwhelmed if every vehicle on the planet switched to electric power tomorrow.
With the European Union recently agreeing to a ban of new petrol and diesel cars from 2035, the BMW boss warned a deadline for banning internal-combustion engines “would lead to distortions that nobody here can control anymore”.
Despite BMW already beginning its roll-out of electric vehicles – with it’s range of battery-powered ‘Neue Klasse’ models set to launch in 2025 – the company is also pursuing hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles, a technology it has been quietly developing for two decades.
While BMW has now accepted electric powertrains as a viable alternative to fossil fuels, Mr Zipse said last week hydrogen is “the only raw material that can be sustainably produced and stored,” while also having infrastructure benefits.
"You can convert a [traditional fuel station to hydrogen] in two days. The way there is relatively short, unlike with electromobility, where you need connections to the medium-voltage grid and you need a charging infrastructure for every car,” he said.
“That's a lot of work. That will work, but not as the only solution. This is going to take far too long. That's why we firmly believe in hydrogen. It will come and it will come at BMW, I am very, very sure of that.”


----------



## JohnDe (21 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It would be fantastic if it comes off.
> 
> Fingers crossed.




It will only happen if governments and business put their heads together and convince Tesla that Australia should get work over other countries in our region. Malaysia is keen.


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## mullokintyre (21 September 2022)

it makes sense to have a factory dedicated to . No tooling changes, less parts to carry etc.
 RHD version of EV's  If  we look at a map showing all the markets where RHD vehicles would be shipped to, Malaysia seems to be centrally located, certainly more so than OZ, plus it would have lower labour costs, as well as construction costs.
The obvious place is India, given that is has a population equal to all the others put together, but Tesla and the Indian government have been unable to agree to the conditions of manufacturing vehicles in India  that suits both parties.
Mick


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## sptrawler (21 September 2022)

Yes @mullokintyre the size of our domestic market is the real issue, if the cars are made in Malaysia or India a smaller portion of them require shipping, whereas if they are produced in Australia, most of the production would require shipping quite a long distance.
There really isn't a lot of practical reasons to build the cars here, battery production here makes more sense than complete vehicles IMO, the batteries are quite heavy and ship filling capacities would be good as they are compact.


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## JohnDe (21 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> .... Malaysia seems to be centrally located, certainly more so than OZ, plus it would have lower labour costs, as well as construction costs.




Cost and centrality are not the issue, as mentioned by Tesla board chair Robyn Denholm  -  “Tesla is a prime example of that: We’re producing vehicles in California, which is one of the most expensive places on the planet, and shipping them all around the world.”


----------



## JohnDe (21 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> ... the size of our domestic market is the real issue, if the cars are made in Malaysia or India a smaller portion of them require shipping, whereas if they are produced in Australia, most of the production would require shipping quite a long distance.




“Producing vehicles on continents is important. Because when you’re setting a supply chain for the long term, you want … the kilometres those cars travel before someone actually owns (them) to be as short as possible."

What Robyn Denholm is saying is that total kilometers for all components must be included in the final calculation.

Malyasia does have some things going for it, however, Australia has a lot more. We have all the minerals required to build an EV, we have vast amounts of land, a stable and modern society, "Australia’s car manufacturing industry could be reignited. We have the skills and we can retool and get people into advanced manufacturing, which is tech and manufacturing converging”


----------



## Country Lad (21 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> .......... plus it would have lower labour costs, as well as construction costs...........



I doubt the labour costs are a significant input these days.  The 19 metre long, 18-wheeled, 38-tonne heavy-duty fully electric truck, the Volvo FH,  takes only six hours to go through the Volvo production line from initial frames to completion.

Interesting article "_*First drive of Volvo’s heavy duty electric truck*_*"*.


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## qldfrog (21 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Cost and centrality are not the issue, as mentioned by Tesla board chair Robyn Denholm  -  “Tesla is a prime example of that: We’re producing vehicles in California, which is one of the most expensive places on the planet, and shipping them all around the world.”



do you mean , we do it in california as most of our income is actually a tax redistribution, not car sale thru the fines(ohh sorry credits)  others car sellers pay to Tesla??
So Australia govs would have to pay big to compensate for our costs disadvantages, and with the way Australia ATO works , the deal would end up being a net loss..we are used, look at Timor gas, Chevron etc


----------



## JohnDe (22 September 2022)

Country Lad said:


> I doubt the labour costs are a significant input these days.  The 19 metre long, 18-wheeled, 38-tonne heavy-duty fully electric truck, the Volvo FH,  takes only six hours to go through the Volvo production line from initial frames to completion.
> 
> Interesting article "_*First drive of Volvo’s heavy duty electric truck*_*"*.




Adding to that, Australia's labour cost is competitive - 






						Labour Costs - Countries - List
					

This page displays a table with actual values, consensus figures, forecasts, statistics and historical data charts for - Labour Costs. This page provides values for Labour Costs reported in several countries. The table has current values for Labour Costs, previous releases, historical highs and...




					tradingeconomics.com


----------



## Country Lad (22 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Adding to that, Australia's labour cost is competitive -



Interesting, @JohnDe, but I wonder how accurate a couple of the figures are. There are 45 countries listed and if we rank them from 1 lowest cost to 45 the highest cost, then NZ is supposedly the highest at 12 times higher than Australia. That doesn’t seem to pass the pub test.
We come in at 11 which is admirable. Turkey at 44 and 3.9 times Australia????? Maybe these are a couple of outliers. The rest I can accept as reasonably logical.  North Korea is not there of course so slave labour is not included.


----------



## Value Collector (22 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Opportunity like this doesn't happen very often. A chance for us to not only sell our resources but to process and manufacutre.



I like the way Tesla people make statements like “Producing vehicles on continents is important”, hahaha it sounds like a statement Elon would make.


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2022)

Country Lad said:


> Interesting, @JohnDe, but I wonder how accurate a couple of the figures are. There are 45 countries listed and if we rank them from 1 lowest cost to 45 the highest cost, then NZ is supposedly the highest at 12 times higher than Australia. That doesn’t seem to pass the pub test.
> We come in at 11 which is admirable. Turkey at 44 and 3.9 times Australia????? Maybe these are a couple of outliers. The rest I can accept as reasonably logical.  North Korea is not there of course so slave labour is not included.
> 
> 
> View attachment 147107




Pity how high labour costs have become a pejorative, as opposed to an indication of standard of living.


----------



## qldfrog (22 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Pity how high labour costs have become a pejorative, as opposed to an indication of standard of living.



This is not a m8near relation, when the salary is high but taxes higher and wasted, your high supposedly hourly rate does not mean wealthier, and definitively not happier person


----------



## SirRumpole (22 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> This is not a m8near relation, when the salary is high but taxes higher and wasted, your high supposedly hourly rate does not mean wealthier, and definitively not happier person




No doubt, but if you have to be miserable, you might as well be well off.   

At least you can afford a psychiatrist, if you can find one.


----------



## qldfrog (22 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> No doubt, but if you have to be miserable, you might as well be well off.
> 
> At least you can afford a psychiatrist, if you can find one.



True, look at Sydney,LA or NY people😁


----------



## sptrawler (22 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Pity how high labour costs have become a pejorative, as opposed to an indication of standard of living.



Yes it is weird how people can't associate the two, that goes for both sides of the argument.
It's a bit like nike wearers complaining about the slave labour that makes them, yet if they made them in their own country, the same people would complain about the cost of them.
People who complain about Holden folding, yet they went out and bought a Toyota or a Nissan, I actually know die hard Holden fans that haven't bought a Holden in the last 30 years.


----------



## mullokintyre (22 September 2022)

As can be seen here Dior  market a pair of  Air Jordon sneakers for  USD38,192.
The labor content, whether its by  poorly paid workers in Vietnam or highly paid ones in  Austria, would be a minuscule percentage of the cost of the finished product.
Nice markup there.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (22 September 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> As can be seen here Dior  market a pair of  Air Jordon sneakers for  USD38,192.
> The labor content, whether its by  poorly paid workers in Vietnam or highly paid ones in  Austria, would be a minuscule percentage of the cost of the finished product.
> Nice markup there.
> Mick



Made in Italy.

Ridiculous price, but the people that buy those are earning $20,000+ per week.









						How It's Made: The Air Jordan 1 High OG Dior Sneaker - Bay Street Bull
					

With the 35th anniversary of the Air Jordan 1, Nike's newest collaboration with Dior is the perfect marriage of streetwear and high-fashion.




					baystbull.com


----------



## Value Collector (22 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> No doubt, but if you have to be miserable, you might as well be well off.
> 
> At least you can afford a psychiatrist, if you can find one.



Money definitely does play a part in happiness, atleast up to a certain level.


----------



## sptrawler (24 September 2022)

A question I have wanted to ask for a long, long time, but haven't because I hoped it would be self resolving before it affected me.
Is why hasn't the ACCC demanded Tesla open up access to all E.V's, when Tesla has open access to taxpayer funded charging infrastructure? Telstra as a communications company had to allow third party access to their infrastructure, the mining companies had to allow third party access to their rail infrastructure, why isn't the ACCC demanding E.V access to Tesla's charging infrastructure?
Otherwise why should Tesla vehicles be allowed access to public funded infrastructure, in the name of fairness?
Interesting, Tesla owners would say why should non Tesla buyers get access, but then one would ask why was non Telstra communication companies given access to Telstra infrastructure?
I wonder when the question will raise its head.


----------



## JohnDe (25 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A question I have wanted to ask for a long, long time, but haven't because I hoped it would be self resolving before it affected me.
> Is why hasn't the ACCC demanded Tesla open up access to all E.V's, when Tesla has open access to taxpayer funded charging infrastructure? Telstra as a communications company had to allow third party access to their infrastructure, the mining companies had to allow third party access to their rail infrastructure, why isn't the ACCC demanding E.V access to Tesla's charging infrastructure?
> Otherwise why should Tesla vehicles be allowed access to public funded infrastructure, in the name of fairness?
> Interesting, Tesla owners would say why should non Tesla buyers get access, but then one would ask why was non Telstra communication companies given access to Telstra infrastructure?
> I wonder when the question will raise its head.




Tesla does not access any publicly funded charging infrastructure in Australia. The owners & users of Tesla vehicles may be using public funded infrastructure, which they have contributed to by paying taxes.


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A question I have wanted to ask for a long, long time, but haven't because I hoped it would be self resolving before it affected me.
> Is why hasn't the ACCC demanded Tesla open up access to all E.V's, when Tesla has open access to taxpayer funded charging infrastructure? Telstra as a communications company had to allow third party access to their infrastructure, the mining companies had to allow third party access to their rail infrastructure, why isn't the ACCC demanding E.V access to Tesla's charging infrastructure?
> Otherwise why should Tesla vehicles be allowed access to public funded infrastructure, in the name of fairness?
> Interesting, Tesla owners would say why should non Tesla buyers get access, but then one would ask why was non Telstra communication companies given access to Telstra infrastructure?
> I wonder when the question will raise its head.



Firstly other brands can use Teslas destination chargers, just not their super chargers. But the The simple answer is.

Tesla owners are tax payers so helped fund the public chargers.

But not all tax payers helped fund the Tesla chargers.

The Tesla chargers have been funded by the people that purchased Teslas.

By requesting Tesla to open up their net work you are asking Tesla customers to subsidise other ev brands, while also discouraging other ev brands from investing in charging net works.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> By requesting Tesla to open up their net work you are asking Tesla customers to subsidise other ev brands, while also discouraging other ev brands from investing in charging net works.




OK , so lets have Ampol petrol pumps only for the use of Ampol petrol, Shell pumps for Shell petrol etc.


That sort of thinking is dinosaur stuff.

Petrol is petrol and electricity is electricity.


----------



## JohnDe (25 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> OK , so lets have Ampol petrol pumps only for the use of Ampol petrol, Shell pumps for Shell petrol etc.
> 
> 
> That sort of thinking is dinosaur stuff.
> ...




I thought that is how it is. 

I purchase fuel from BP because I only want their 98 Ultimate unleaded in my VF SSV, the fuel BP advertise. Just like Valvoline engine oil is made to their quality specifications, Castrol to their own, Penrite theirs, and so on.


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Firstly other brands can use Teslas destination chargers, just not their super chargers. But the The simple answer is.
> 
> Tesla owners are tax payers so helped fund the public chargers.
> 
> ...



I understand your reasoning, but when it comes to the ACCC that isn't how the logics is applied, as happened when Fortescue gained access to other companies rail networks in the North of W.A. and third party carriers get access to Optus, Telstra networks etc.
I think it is referred to as a restrictive trade practice, or something like that.
There are a couple of Tesla destination chargers near us, so I will give them a go and see if they work with the Hyundai.
Anyway, it's a good topic to debate. 

https://www.railjournal.com/freight/fortescue-wins-appeal-over-pilbara-heavy-haul-access/









						ACCC issues final determinations on Telstra access pricing disputes
					

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission has finalised its arbitration of two separate access disputes notified by AAPT and Primus over the charges for access to Telstra's fixed line telephone network by issuing final arbitration determinations. AAPT and Primus use Telstra's telephone...




					www.accc.gov.au
				












						Competition
					

Competition leads to lower prices, better quality, and more choice for consumers. Some anti-competitive business behaviour is against the law.




					www.accc.gov.au
				



Section 45 of the _Competition and Consumer Act _prohibits contracts, arrangements, understandings or concerted practices that have the purpose, effect or likely effect of substantially lessening competition in a market, even if that conduct does not meet the stricter definitions of other anti-competitive conduct such as cartels

.https://www.channelnews.com.au/christine-holgates-global-express-ignites-auspost-parcel-war/
Christine Holgate is taking on her previous employer, attempting to force Australia Post to allow Global Express to take advantage of its rural and region infrastructure and services.


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> OK , so lets have Ampol petrol pumps only for the use of Ampol petrol, Shell pumps for Shell petrol etc.
> 
> 
> That sort of thinking is dinosaur stuff.
> ...



That’s a false analogy.

Tesla super chargers are currently only available to Tesla users because they people that bought Teslas are the ones that funded the building of the network.

Tesla could have sold its cars cheaper if it didn’t have to build the charging network, so opening up that charging network to other car brands is providing a subsidy to the other car brands at the expense of Tesla customers.

Tesla will eventually open up the charging network, they are in discussions in Europe, but they will charge the other brands a penalty rate.


----------



## Macquack (25 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I thought that is how it is.
> 
> I purchase fuel from BP because I only want their 98 Ultimate unleaded in my VF SSV, the fuel BP advertise. Just like Valvoline engine oil is made to their quality specifications, Castrol to their own, Penrite theirs, and so on.



Are you saying oils ain't oils?


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I understand your reasoning, but when it comes to the ACCC that isn't how the logics is applied, as happened when Fortescue gained access to other companies rail networks in the North of W.A. and third party carriers get access to Optus, Telstra networks etc.
> I think it is referred to as a restrictive trade practice, or something like that.
> There are a couple of Tesla destination chargers near us, so I will give them a go and see if they work with the Hyundai.
> Anyway, it's a good topic to debate.
> ...



Fortescue never was able to gain access to others rail lines, they had to build their own.


----------



## SirRumpole (25 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That’s a false analogy.
> 
> Tesla super chargers are currently only available to Tesla users because they people that bought Teslas are the ones that funded the building of the network.
> 
> ...



OK so we are going to get Tesla building their own charging network and Hyundai building theirs and Toyota building another one all for their own vehicles only.

What a pile of cr@p that is going to turn into.


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Fortescue never was able to gain access to others rail lines, they had to build their own.



My apologies, I thought they were given access.









						Fortescue railway - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



Before deciding to construct its own line, in June 2004 FMG lodged an application with the National Competition Council of Australia to use part of the Goldsworthy and Mount Newman railways.[6]

In June 2010, the Australian Competition Tribunal ruled that FMG be granted access to Rio Tinto's Robe River line and BHP's Billiton's Goldsworthy line but not to the busier Hamersley and Mount Newman lines.[7][8] *Treasurer Wayne Swan suggested that several advantages would accrue from access to the rail lines by third parties. It would increase competition, reduce duplication of infrastructure, and reduce environmental damage.**[9]*

Access to the rail networks by third parties is governed by the State Agreements Act.[10]

In November 2010, BC Iron became the first mining company to access a Pilbara network via a third party agreement.[11]


----------



## JohnDe (25 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I understand your reasoning, but when it comes to the ACCC..............
> There are a couple of Tesla destination chargers near us, so I will give them a go and see if they work with the Hyundai.




ACCC has no say here. Tesla vehicle sales subsidised the Tesla infrastructure, no other EV company had the idea or required charging infrastructure. If it wasn't for Tesla the EV industry would not be where it is now.

No offence, but you have reached the same conclusion that most of th vehicle manufacturers have got to... 'shyt, I've got an EV but nowhere to charge it'.

Tesla took a gamble and spent a fortune, compensation is deserved.

I own a Tesla, after researching all the options I chose the Tesla and paid a premium for a vehicle that included a charging infrastructure. 

If any other manufacturer wants to use that infrastructure they will have to compensate me and all the other Tesla owners that paid the premium for the charging infrastructure.


----------



## JohnDe (25 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> OK so we are going to get Tesla building their own charging network and Hyundai building theirs and Toyota building another one all for their own vehicles only.
> 
> What a pile of cr@p that is going to turn into.




Tesla started "building there own charging network" because no other manufacturer or government believed there was a need for it. If it wasn't for Tesla the EV industry would not be where it is now.

Where are we at now? If government advisors and industry leaders had any brains they'd get together and work out a universal standard, the same way that the audio and video industry eventually did.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The Tesla chargers have been funded by the people that purchased Teslas.
> 
> By requesting Tesla to open up their net work you are asking Tesla customers to subsidise other ev brands, while also discouraging other ev brands from investing in charging net works.



Agree as such but it's still a silly situation and in other comparable situations the ACCC or government itself has indeed forced the issue.

Electricity itself is the most obvious example. Communications networks another. Gas another. Forced competition has brought plenty of problems but it has been forced nonetheless.

That said, I'm certainly not advocating whacking Tesla over the head on this. Rather what's needed is a universal standard and a business model that recovers costs from users, not from selling cars.


----------



## Dona Ferentes (25 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> OK , so lets have Ampol petrol pumps only for the use of Ampol petrol, Shell pumps for Shell petrol etch ...that sort of thinking is dinosaur stuff.
> 
> Petrol is petrol and electricity is electricity.



Oils ain't oils


----------



## rcw1 (25 September 2022)

Dona Ferentes said:


> Oils ain't oils



Sol 
rcw1


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> No offence, but you have reached the same conclusion that most of th vehicle manufacturers have got to... 'shyt, I've got an EV but nowhere to charge it'.



Offence taken, I didn't buy the car for the charging options, I chose the car for personal needs and physical constraints and decided on a car to suit as I've said previously.
The charging constraints aren't an issue for me, or I wouldn't have bought the car, I am retired and I don't actually need a car, it is just an indulgence. So inferring I wasn't aware of the charging constraints is 100% wrong. 

Also as I said, the ACCC in the past has made a point of making companies open up access to installed infrastructure, to reduce duplication and wastage. I was just posing the question, why they haven't done it with the Tesla network.
But VC did say the destination chargers have been opened to general access, so obviously talks have taken place. 
You don't buy a mobile phone, just because the train you travel on daily has a suitable charging socket, well at least I wouldn't.
By the way the charging infrastructure for Tesla and every other E.V is shyt in W.A.


----------



## JohnDe (25 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Offence taken, I didn't buy the car for the charging options, I chose the car for personal needs and physical constraints and decided on a car to suit as I've said previously.
> The charging constraints aren't an issue for me, or I wouldn't have bought the car, I am retired and I don't actually need a car, it is just an indulgence. So inferring I wasn't aware of the charging constraints is 100% wrong.
> 
> Also as I said, the ACCC in the past has made a point of making companies open up access to installed infrastructure, to reduce duplication and wastage. I was just posing the question, why they haven't done it with the Tesla network.
> ...





_"There are a couple of Tesla destination chargers near us, so I will give them a go and see if they work with the Hyundai."_​​_A question I have wanted to ask for a long, long time, but haven't because I hoped it would be self resolving before it affected me._​_Is why hasn't the ACCC demanded Tesla open up access to all E.V's, when Tesla has open access to taxpayer funded charging infrastructure?"_​
If it wasn't for Tesla there would not be an EV industry that we see now, instead we would have lost of Toyota Prius's, Nissan Leaf's and Chevrolet Volts. 

Tesla built a charging system by adding the cost to the vehicle price. If any other vehicle manufacturers wanted to be a part of that they could have had business discussions wiht Tesla, they did not. Instead they chose to think that EVs were decades away from becoming mainstream and decided to concentrate on hybrid. All of a sudden, a few years back, EV sales went ballistic and now owners of alternative EVs have found out that charging infrastructure for the brand they chose isn't so good.

Why should Tesla be held to account for the mistakes of other manufacturers?

Why should the buyers of Tesla, that paid a extra for a premium charging network, lose priority if their network because other manufacturers did not prepare for the future and sell their vehicles at a discount with no infrastructure?


----------



## sptrawler (25 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> _"There are a couple of Tesla destination chargers near us, so I will give them a go and see if they work with the Hyundai."_​​_A question I have wanted to ask for a long, long time, but haven't because I hoped it would be self resolving before it affected me._​_Is why hasn't the ACCC demanded Tesla open up access to all E.V's, when Tesla has open access to taxpayer funded charging infrastructure?"_​
> If it wasn't for Tesla there would not be an EV industry that we see now, instead we would have lost of Toyota Prius's, Nissan Leaf's and Chevrolet Volts.
> 
> Tesla built a charging system by adding the cost to the vehicle price. If any other vehicle manufacturers wanted to be a part of that they could have had business discussions wiht Tesla, they did not. Instead they chose to think that EVs were decades away from becoming mainstream and decided to concentrate on hybrid. All of a sudden, a few years back, EV sales went ballistic and now owners of alternative EVs have found out that charging infrastructure for the brand they chose isn't so good.
> ...



Why should Singapore telecom have been given access to the Telstra network, why should Fortescue metals have been given access to some of Rio's and BHP's infrastructure, it is the way it is in Australia giving access to Tesla's infrastructure allows a more rapid uptake of E.V's.
That's what the ACCC looks at, the same reason Tesla changed from its proprietary plug to the CCs EU standard, so that it allowed more charging options for Tesla's.
It isn't about what is right or wrong, it seldom is, it is about what brings about the most efficient outcome that the ACCC looks at.
Like I said it will be interesting to see if the ACCC acts on it, maybe they wont, but it is an interesting side issue on the E.V front as it is all a bit boring ATM.
No doubt there will be a Tesla owners price and a general public price to use Teslas infrastructure, but it may never happen anyway, I'm just guessing it will happen.

Same as the ex Australia Post CEO, is now applying to the ACCC, so that TOLL can get access to Australia Post infrastructure when they are in direct competition with Australia Post.

Postie Holgate pushes the envelope​Former Aussie Post boss Christine Holgate’s Toll Global Express has lobbed a 12-page submission to the competition watchdog.

Christine Holgate is taking on her previous employer, attempting to force Australia Post to allow Global Express to take advantage of its rural and region infrastructure and services.


----------



## Smurf1976 (25 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Why should the buyers of Tesla, that paid a extra for a premium charging network, lose priority if their network because other manufacturers did not prepare for the future and sell their vehicles at a discount with no infrastructure?



The real issue is that the infrastructure is, over the long term, separate to the car.

Mobile phones versus mobile phone networks are separate businesses. They used to be more common but carrier-branded phones aren't the mainstream these days and even where they still exist, they're manufactured by someone else and just branded.

No car manufacturer's building their own roads so far as I'm aware.

Airlines, airports and aircraft manufacture are all separate businesses and any major airport is used by more than one airline. Even the bus service to the airport isn't run by the airlines anymore but is a separate business.

ICE cars aren't tied to any particular brand of fuel.

Plenty of trains running on tracks owned by someone else.

And so on.

I totally agree that Tesla has invested in charging facilities and ought be compensated and so on but ultimately the concept of allowing open access has been forced on every other comparable industry unless they'd already done it themselves.

Even some (all?) of the bank-owned brokers don't actually insist that you use their bank for the cash account. Encourage it certainly but they don't force it.


----------



## JohnDe (25 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Why should Singapore telecom have been given access to the Telstra network, why should Fortescue metals have been given access to some of Rio's and BHP's infrastructure, it is the way it is in Australia giving access to Tesla's infrastructure allows a more rapid uptake of E.V's.
> That's what the ACCC looks at, the same reason Tesla changed from its proprietary plug to the CCs EU standard, so that it allowed more charging options for Tesla's.
> It isn't about what is right or wrong, it seldom is, it is about what brings about the most efficient outcome that the ACCC looks at.
> Like I said it will be interesting to see if the ACCC acts on it, maybe they wont, but it is an interesting side issue on the E.V front as it is all a bit boring ATM.
> ...




I have no idea on how your examples have anything to do with a private company's infrastructure.

Singtel telecom and telstra​​Fortescue metals given access to Rio's and BHP infrastructure​
There is no concern over Tesla creating any sort of monopoly. Tesla have an open source philosophy - All Our Patent Are Belong To You

Part of the sale of Tesla vehicles included the construction of Superchargers, funded by a cost added to the vehicle sale. 

Will your next demand be that Qantas open The Qantas Club to all other airlines?


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Agree as such but it's still a silly situation and in other comparable situations the ACCC or government itself has indeed forced the issue.
> 
> Electricity itself is the most obvious example. Communications networks another. Gas another. Forced competition has brought plenty of problems but it has been forced nonetheless.
> 
> That said, I'm certainly not advocating whacking Tesla over the head on this. Rather what's needed is a universal standard and a business model that recovers costs from users, not from selling cars.



I get what you are saying with things that are impractical to replicate, like train lines, gas pipelines, electricity transmission lines, phone cables etc etc.

But this is not what teslas charging stations are like, think of it more like a gym member ship, imagine one gym company paying to install gyms all over Australia, and then being forced to open its doors to the customers of another company because that company refuses to install any gyms them selves.

———————
The way I see it playing out is that when say Mercedes commit to building out a charging network, they could do a deal with Tesla where if they commit to helping fill in the gaps in teslas network then they can use Teslas and tesla can use theirs.

But, if an auto maker refuses to have a charging network at all, their customers have to rely on third party networks getting built.


----------



## JohnDe (25 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> The real issue is that the infrastructure is, over the long term, separate to the car.
> 
> Mobile phones versus mobile phone networks are separate businesses. They used to be more common but carrier-branded phones aren't the mainstream these days and even where they still exist, they're manufactured by someone else and just branded.
> 
> ...




What is the "long term" 5, 10, 20 years?

If a consumer pays extra for a service, should that consumer receive fair value for the added cost?

Is Tesla the dominant electric car brand in Australia? _Yes, because the electric-only brand is more established than most of its mainstream rivals, having begun selling its cars in earnest at the end of 2014._

Consumers have a choice - buy a cheaper EV with public and random charging infrastructure, or pay a premium for Tesla with a dedicated charging infrastructure and software to match.

Manufacturers have a choice - sell a product with minimal planning of charging infrastructure, or create a planning group with other manufacturers and governments and build charging infrastructure.

As with all early industry, things change when it becomes mainstream. The first petrol vehicle owners did not have the luxury of pulling into a petrol station for fuel, they had to plan their trips and look for locations to purchase fuel, such as chemists & general stores. Competition and initiative created fuel stations, not governments & angry consumers that chose with different criteria in mind.


----------



## Value Collector (25 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> OK so we are going to get Tesla building their own charging network and Hyundai building theirs and Toyota building another one all for their own vehicles only.
> 
> What a pile of cr@p that is going to turn into.



No, I don’t think those other companies are going to build their own network, people buying cars from those companies with have to rely on third parties like Ampol and other independent for profit charging station companies building  a net work.

Teslas Network will operate along side the other companies, atleast until such time that Tesla decides to open it up to other brands because they feel it’s profitable to do so, and won’t swamp the network.

————————
As I said in another post, if Hyundai did build out a decent network I could see a scenario where Tesla would be willing to do a mutual deal where we use theirs and they use ours.

That would work out well for customers of both Hyundai and Tesla, but why would either Hyundai or Tesla want their networks swamped by brands that refuse to contribute to the system?


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> why would either Hyundai or Tesla want their networks swamped by brands that refuse to contribute to the system?




I'm not really for or against, within reason, but I can think of plenty of examples where some company has tried to "lock in" customers via consumables, accessories or other services. Ultimately every single one has either failed outright or been overturned by law.

Microsoft and web browsers

Printers and proprietary paper and ink

Record companies trying to stop downloads and streaming

All non-standard media formats of which there's a very long list over the years between audio, video and computer.

Ultimately they all either failed commercially, were worked around technically or were overturned by legislation.

Looking at the specific case of Tesla, the crunch will come when Tesla ceases to dominate the EV market as it almost certainly will. Not because it fails but simply because every other manufacturer between them will almost certainly gain a significant market share at some point - odds are we won't see a situation where practically every car on the road is a Tesla.

At that point any third party with a charger on their land will want one that serves all their potential customers no matter what car they have. If you're running a motel, or worse still if you're the local council and it's on public land, then it's not in your interest to have a proprietary system that doesn't suit the majority. If 90% of EV's are Tesla then having a Tesla-only charger works. If 20% are Tesla then you'd be crazy to not change to a generic charger that suits the other 80% as well. That's just business. 

I've no hate for Tesla, somewhat the opposite they deserve a lot more credit than certain other car manufacturers I can think of, but I'm just looking ahead. In any situation where there's a proprietary system competing against a generic one, the generic wins in the end.


----------



## Smurf1976 (26 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> What is the "long term" 5, 10, 20 years?



At whatever time EV's are the mainstream new car purchase.

Once that happens, the idea of brand-specific charging becomes rather odd.


----------



## qldfrog (26 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm not really for or against, within reason, but I can think of plenty of examples where some company has tried to "lock in" customers via consumables, accessories or other services. Ultimately every single one has either failed outright or been overturned by law.
> 
> Microsoft and web browsers
> 
> ...



Unless Tesla wants to be the Apple of the car industry.
imho they want
Superb branding and image, always proprietary, leverage their specific tech  and apply law after dragging their feet and gaining time..specific charger,even forming behavioural learnings to lock custumer base.
Once you start talking Tesla feel in a car test ,they win .
After they will have..have their own chargers..we are one,tribe aspect,put a $ premium...selective tribe..
Most of the Apple current offers are not leading edge at all but it does not matter anymore: captive audience.
In my opinion, Tesla run .. successfully the same marketing..and succeeded as far as i can see


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I'm not really for or against, within reason, but I can think of plenty of examples where some company has tried to "lock in" customers via consumables, accessories or other services. Ultimately every single one has either failed outright or been overturned by law.
> 
> Microsoft and web browsers
> 
> ...



The big hole if your “locking in costumers via consumables” theory, is that is not what Tesla is doing at all.

Tesla are not locking in Tesla owners to charging at their super chargers only.

Tesla owners can charge where ever they want, they aren’t locked in, Tesla is locking out other brands. (At the moment)

If the Non Tesla ev market continues to grow, third party charging stations should grow too, just like third party petrol stations did.

In the mean time if tesla opened it’s doors to the other brands it would kill demand for the third party networks, and swamp the exisiting tesla chargers.

It’s inconvenient in the short term for folks that buy other brands, but we need them to squirm for a while to generate enough demand to boost the third party chargers.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I get what you are saying with things that are impractical to replicate, like train lines, gas pipelines, electricity transmission lines, phone cables etc etc.
> 
> But this is not what teslas charging stations are like, think of it more like a gym member ship, imagine one gym company paying to install gyms all over Australia, and then being forced to open its doors to the customers of another company because that company refuses to install any gyms them selves.
> 
> ...



Using your gym example, the similarity is very good, if a member of another gym was prepared to pay to use the oppositions gym eg join, there would be a case of discrimination and restrictive trade practice if he wasnt allowed to do so.
Im surprised that you cant see that, I may be barking up the wrong tree, but as I said in the begining it makes for an interesting debate.
Like Ive said Im surprised the ACCC hasnt got onto it yet, maybe early days and it isnt a major issue yet, I might drop them an email.Lol


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## JohnDe (26 September 2022)

Some lucky South Aussies will get the opportunity to buy a discounted EV from a electricity supplier - 



> iO Energy is selling discounted EVs for more than $10,000 less than the cheapest competitor​If you’ve been thinking about swapping your petrol car for an electric vehicle, an energy retailer is offering discounted models.
> 
> An energy retailer is offering South Australians discounted electric cars to its customers.
> In what iO Energy claims is the best electric vehicle deal in Australia, a BYD e6 hatchback with a Wallbox Pulsar Plus charger can be bought for $33,000 plus shipping and handling.
> ...


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Using your gym example, the similarity is very good, if a member of another gym was prepared to pay to use the oppositions gym eg join, there would be a case of discrimination and restrictive trade practice if he wasnt allowed to do so.
> Im surprised that you cant see that, I may be barking up the wrong tree, but as I said in the begining it makes for an interesting debate.
> Like Ive said Im surprised the ACCC hasnt got onto it yet, maybe early days and it isnt a major issue yet, I might drop them an email.Lol



You have sign up and join a gym, In the case of Tesla, that sign up is when you buy the car, so there is no discrimination, anyone can buy a Tesla and join our club, but offcourse if you join another club then you are stuck with that clubs services or relying on the third party public service.

It’s like I can’t go into the Qantas lounge if I am flying virgin, we can all use the food court at the airport (public chargers) but if you want the upgraded experience of the Qantas lounge (Tesla chargers) you need to have a valid Qantas membership and be flying Qantas that day.

Imagine if the government told Qantas is had to start accepting Virgin customers into the Qantas lounge, the response would be “tell virgin to build their own lounge” or “tell the virgin customers to use the public facilities in the food court”

Private Clubs exist, eg only Costco members can shop at Costco, air port lounges, gyms, road side assistance, sports clubs, social clubs it’s not a new thing.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> *You have sign up and join a gym, In the case of Tesla, that sign up is when you buy the car,* so there is no discrimination, anyone can buy a Tesla and join our club, but offcourse if you join another club then you are stuck with that clubs services or relying on the third party public service.
> 
> It’s like I can’t go into the Qantas lounge if I am flying virgin, we can all use the food court at the airport (public chargers) but if you want the upgraded experience of the Qantas lounge (Tesla chargers) you need to have a valid Qantas membership and be flying Qantas that day.
> 
> ...



That is exactly the reason that the ACCC would take exception IMO, what is fair and reasonable, if the Tesla was still a proprietary plug that could only use the Tesla network that would probably work, but because it can avail itself of all networks it would make the argument flawed IMO.
Like I said they could charge a higher price for non Tesla owners, but the requirement to purchase the vehicle, wouldn't be seen as fair and reasonable and in the public interest. Again only my thoughts.
With the Qantas club, not being a member, doesn't leave a person stranded or stop a person catching a Qantas plane or a Virgin plane, not being a Tesla member could leave a person stranded and in difficulty. .
I don't think the argument that you have to buy a certain car to use what will be eventually critical infrastructure,  would hold water, should only Qantas shareholders be allowed to fly on Qantas planes? You don't have to buy shares in the Gym company or purchase a part of the gym building, to join and use the Gym and its facilities.
It is a bit like from memory a lot of shareholder reward programmes were closed, whereby if you owned shares in say Telstra you could get cheaper phone rates, or banks gave shareholders better interest rates, that used to happen.
Anyway like I said, interesting topic.


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## SirRumpole (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You have sign up and join a gym, In the case of Tesla, that sign up is when you buy the car, so there is no discrimination, anyone can buy a Tesla and join our club, but offcourse if you join another club then you are stuck with that clubs services or relying on the third party public service.
> 
> It’s like I can’t go into the Qantas lounge if I am flying virgin, we can all use the food court at the airport (public chargers) but if you want the upgraded experience of the Qantas lounge (Tesla chargers) you need to have a valid Qantas membership and be flying Qantas that day.
> 
> ...




Regardless of the legalities it doesn't seem good business to exclude a section of the market from buying goods that you are selling.

Tesla is one company, many others are making ev's and Tesla being on the expensive side is likely to be a minority in the EV fleet, so there will be a lot of charging stations popping up, would you be happy if they didn't allow Teslas in ?


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is exactly the reason that the ACCC would take exception IMO, what is fair and reasonable, if the Tesla was still a proprietary plug that could only use the Tesla network that would probably work, but because it can avail itself of all networks it would make the argument flawed IMO.
> Like I said they could charge a higher price for non Tesla owners, but the requirement to purchase the vehicle, wouldn't be seen as fair and reasonable and in the public interest. Again only my thoughts.
> With the Qantas club, not being a member, doesn't leave a person stranded or stop a person catching a Qantas plane or a Virgin plane, not being a Tesla member could leave a person stranded and in difficulty. .
> I don't think the argument that you have to buy a certain car to use what will be eventually critical infrastructure,  would hold water, should only Qantas shareholders be allowed to fly on Qantas planes? You don't have to buy shares or purchase a part of the gym building, to join and use the Gym.
> Anyway like I said, interesting topic.



Why is Costco allowed to have petrol stations that only members can use?

I have a charger in my garage, do I have to open that up to the public?

If Woolworths decided to install chargers that were only available to Woolworths customers would that be wrong?

What about hotels that offer charging for guests, do they need to make them public?

——————————
It seems to me to be completely fair that Teslas chargers are not open to the public, because there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone developing a public network.

Tesla is in the business of selling cars, They only got into the charging business to remove  one of the major road blocks people had stopping them buying Tesla vehicles which was the “how do I drive cross country” question.

So from the very start Teslas charging network has been a bit for profit service to their customers. 

It’s not like a railway line that is hard to replicate, anyone can invest and build out more charging locations, they just don’t want to.


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## JohnDe (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That is exactly the reason that the ACCC would take exception IMO, what is fair and reasonable, if the Tesla was still a proprietary plug that could only use the Tesla network that would probably work, but because it can avail itself of all networks it would make the argument flawed IMO.
> Like I said they could charge a higher price for non Tesla owners, but the requirement to purchase the vehicle, wouldn't be seen as fair and reasonable and in the public interest. Again only my thoughts.
> With the Qantas club, not being a member, doesn't leave a person stranded or stop a person catching a Qantas plane or a Virgin plane, not being a Tesla member could leave a person stranded and in difficulty. .
> I don't think the argument that you have to buy a certain car to use what will be eventually critical infrastructure,  would hold water, should only Qantas shareholders be allowed to fly on Qantas planes? You don't have to buy shares in the Gym company or purchase a part of the gym building, to join and use the Gym and its facilities.
> Anyway like I said, interesting topic.




The ACCC will spend approximately 20 minutes assess the Tesla charging network, and then move on to more pressing issues.

Any person with an EV that becomes 'stranded' due to running out of charge, is the same as a person that runs out of petrol.




Interesting thought process of the ACCC - ACCC says it’s OK for big utilities to exploit market power


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Regardless of the legalities it doesn't seem good business to exclude a section of the market from buying goods that you are selling.
> 
> Tesla is one company, many others are making ev's and Tesla being on the expensive side is likely to be a minority in the EV fleet, so there will be a lot of charging stations popping up, would you be happy if they didn't allow Teslas in ?



When I owned a petrol car I could refuel at Costco unless I was a Costco member, and I can’t charge at Porsche charging stations. 

Any company that is operating a for profit charging network will want as many cars as possible stopping there, so will definitely allow teslas to stop and charge.

The only reason we are even having this conversation is because Tesla has built the best charging network, while all the other companies have left their customers hanging.

Until the other companies have a charging network that they can open up to Tesla customers as a swap, Tesla doesn’t have any reason to make a deal.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Should Telstra be able to only allow access to people who buy Telstra phones, should Optus be allowed to only allow access to people who buy an optus phone?


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## SirRumpole (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Any company that is operating a for profit charging network will want as many cars as possible stopping there, so will definitely allow teslas to stop and charge.




But that doesn't work the other way round, right ?


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> But that doesn't work the other way round, right ?



It's a Tesla owners thing. 😂


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> But that doesn't work the other way round, right ?



No, if Tesla is operating a network as a service for their customers, it’s the customer experience they want, not high levels of usage, if the Tesla chargers get clogged up with Hyundais and toyotas it lowers the customer experience for the Tesla owners.

And if Tesla owners are paying extra for their cars because they want a higher end experience, it’s silly to lower that customer experience.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The only reason we are even having this conversation is because Tesla has built the best charging network, while all the other companies have left their customers hanging.
> 
> Until the other companies have a charging network that they can open up to Tesla customers as a swap, Tesla doesn’t have any reason to make a deal.



So on that reasoning, if a company buys out a hotel chain that has the best regional Australia coverage and there is no other accommodation, can they force tourists to buy shares in the company to avail themselves of the hotel chain.
If they don't, they can't stay in the hotel.🤣


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> No, if Tesla is operating a network as a service for their customers, it’s the customer experience they want, not high levels of usage, if the Tesla chargers get clogged up with Hyundais and toyotas it lowers the customer experience for the Tesla owners.
> 
> And if Tesla owners are paying extra for their cars because they want a higher end experience, it’s silly to lower that customer experience.



The Tesla people and tourists can use the public infrastructure, if the Tesla one is busy, as happens now. 
People who buy a second hand Tesla haven't paid for the Tesla network, so that one is a bit rich. 🤣


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So on that reasoning, if a company buys out a hotel chain that has the best regional Australia coverage and there is no other accommodation, can they force tourists to buy shares in the company to avail themselves of the hotel chain.
> If they don't, they can't stay in the hotel.🤣



Maybe, but remember Tesla built the charging network from scratch themselves, they didn’t take it over.

So the correct question should be, “Can a company build a nation wide hotel chain from scratch but only open it to their members?”

I think the answer would be yes, they would be allowed to operate that way.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The Tesla people and tourists can use the public infrastructure, if the Tesla one is busy, as happens now. People who buy a second hand Tesla haven't paid for the Tesla network, so that one is a bit rich. 🤣



Just like Qantas club members can use the food court if the Qantas lounge is full.(but why should Qantas club members be forced into the food court because the lounge is full of virgin customers)

(Both New and second hand Teslas sell for more because of the full Tesla experience which includes the charging network, as well as the self driving functions)


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Maybe, but remember Tesla built the charging network from scratch themselves, they didn’t take it over.
> 
> So the correct question should be, “Can a company build a nation wide hotel chain from scratch but only open it to their members?”
> 
> I think the answer would be yes, they would be allowed to operate that way.



Very doubtful IMO, even so Tesla isn't offering membership, they are demanding you buy their product, eg the hotel would be asking that you buy shares not pay a membership.
Like I said it would be like Telstra demanding you purchase a Telstra phone to use their network, not allowed.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Very doubtful IMO, even so Tesla isn't offering membership, they are demanding you buy their product, eg the hotel would be asking that you buy shares not pay a membership.
> Like I said it would be like Telstra demanding you purchase a Telstra phone to use their network, not allowed.



There are clubs like that, like part ownership in private planes, part ownership in time share apartments, vacation clubs etc.


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## JohnDe (26 September 2022)

_"It cost Tesla a lot of money to do this, cash that Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk raised through means sketchy or not: selling huge numbers of cars, boosting Tesla’s stock price with false promises about future products, selling features like “Full Self Driving” for $15,000 that aren’t full self-driving. The result is a unified system in which the ultimate responsibility for charger reliability sits with Tesla."_



> My name is Russ Mitchell. Sammy Roth is on vacation, and I’m attempting to fill his fine and well-crafted shoes. I cover automobiles at The Times. So I’m making electric cars and EV chargers the theme of this week’s Boiling Point.
> 
> I own an electric car. I test drive electric cars. I’m a big fan of electric cars.
> 
> ...


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## JohnDe (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Like I said it would be like Telstra demanding you purchase a Telstra phone to use their network, not allowed.




Or signing a contract for a Telstra internet bundle and not being able to use the Telstra supplied modem with another provider?


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

School holidays grandkids, have to go, to be continued.lol


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> There are clubs like that, like part ownership in private planes, part ownership in time share apartments, vacation



Disney Vacation club, hotels that are only open to members.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Or signing a contract for a Telstra internet bundle and not being able to use the Telstra supplied modem with another provider?



No the analogy is joining Telstra, getting their modem and being able to use other providers, but no other providers being able to use Telstras.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Disney Vacation club, hotels that are only open to members.




So if Im a member and I pass away, the kids keep the membership?
If I pass on tbe Tesla, the next person gets the membership, yet havent paid for it.
How much was the cost of membership, apportioned on the Tesla purchase contract?


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## SirRumpole (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> There are clubs like that, like part ownership in private planes, part ownership in time share apartments, vacation clubs etc.




We all pay for electricity infrastructure, generators, poles and wires etc, but Tesla is claiming exclusive use of some of it.

Anyway, we'll see if this plays out in the ACCC as anti competitive behaviour.


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## JohnDe (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> No the analogy is joining Telstra, getting their modem and being able to use other providers, but no other providers being able to use Telstras.




But why can't I use the Telstra modem with other providers?


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> But why can't I use the Telstra modem with other providers?



Because they run different frequencies and there is no need to put frequencies in that your system doesnt operate on.
A bit like if Teslas had a charging system that was Tesla specific and it wasnt a universal system, so Teslas can only charge on a Tesla system then their wouldnt be a problem.
But it doesnt it is a universal system that Tesla is refusing access.
Like I said, they could charge a membership for non Tesla owners.
It will be interesting.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> We all pay for electricity infrastructure, generators, poles and wires etc, but Tesla is claiming exclusive use of some of it.
> 
> Anyway, we'll see if this plays out in the ACCC as anti competitive behaviour.



No, it’s claiming exclusive use of some of the private equipment it plugs into the electrical network.

Just like your toaster is yours alone to use, even though it may be powered by electricity from the grid.

All Tesla chargers are on private land and the equipment is all privately owned, no government money or government land was used to fund the purchase of the charging infrastructure.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> So if Im a member and I pass away, the kids keep the membership?
> If I pass on tbe Tesla, the next person gets the membership, yet havent paid for it.
> How much was the cost of membership, apportioned on the Tesla purchase contract?



Are you talking about Disney, yes because you are part owner in the building you pass that on to your kids.

If you die owning a Tesla, you pass that car on to your kids too, and all the benefits of Tesla ownership pass along with the car.

It’s not a membership that is itemised on the invoice, I am using the term Membership for comparison sake, it’s more of a perk of Tesla ownership vs the brands that don’t support their customers.

But, anyone that owns a Tesla will tell you that access to the supercharger network is a valuable perk, even if it’s never itemised on any bill.

Even if another company sold a car that was exactly the same in all other regards, I would still pay a bit extra to get the Tesla just because of the super charger network, and that goes for second hand cars too.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

I can understand your logic, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
I have RAC insurance, but I dont have roadside assist, also you dont have to have RAC insurance to only have roadside assist.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

I bought Telstra shares in the initial floats and was annoyed when the ACCC gave Singtel access to Telstras infrastructure, we the shareholders paid for it why should an overseas based company get to piggyback on it.
But it happened in the public interest.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I bought Telstra shares in the initial floats and was annoyed when the ACCC gave Singtel access to Telstras infrastructure, we the shareholders paid for it why should an overseas based company get to piggyback on it.
> But it happened in the public interest.



It would be next to impossible for each company to lay their own phone cable network going to each house, so to prevent Telstra being a monopoly they need to give access to other companies.

However, as petrol stations have shown, it’s easy for competing companies to building refuelling stations along side each other and compete.

Ev charging stations are much more similar to petrol stations than telecommunications infrastructure.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It would be next to impossible for each company to lay their own phone cable network going to each house, so to prevent Telstra being a monopoly they need to give access to other companies.
> 
> However, as petrol stations have shown, it’s easy for competing companies to building refuelling stations along side each other and compete.
> 
> Ev charging stations are much more similar to petrol stations than telecommunications infrastructure.



Yes but a national petrol station installer if it was the very early roll out of petrol cars, wouldn't be allowed to install pumps, that only worked on Holden cars.
They may be allowed to install a higher percentage of pumps at each location that were Holden specific if Holden were funding it, but I'm sure the ACCC would demand at least some pumps at each outlet had to be universal fitment.
The same competition rules have to apply to Tesla as applied to Telstra, the general public is supplying the infrastructure that supports Teslas charging infrastructure, if public demand calls for more access i'm sure the ACCC will become involved as it did with Telstra. 
If Tesla had a solar installation supplying each charger, maybe they would have a stronger case, but from my experience "in the publics interest" is a very broad mandate for the ACCC, which it has used on numerous ocassions.
By the way great discussion IMO.


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## JohnDe (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Because they run different frequencies and there is no need to put frequencies in that your system doesnt operate on.




No, that is not true.

Anyone can go to Officeworks and purchase a modem - NBN Modem Routers

However, if you sign a contract with Telstra the modem is locked to Telstra. Why is that? 

With you'r own analogy, should the ACCC be involved? Telstra are charging for a modem and then causing it to become a brick wen the customer changes providers.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes but a national petrol station installer if it was the very early roll out of petrol cars, wouldn't be allowed to install pumps, that only worked on Holden cars.
> They may be allowed to install a higher percentage of pumps at each location that were Holden specific if Holden were funding it, but I'm sure the ACCC would demand at least some pumps at each outlet had to be universal fitment.
> The same competition rules have to apply to Tesla as applied to Telstra, the general public is supplying the infrastructure that supports Teslas charging infrastructure, if public demand calls for more access i'm sure the ACCC will become involved as it did with Telstra.
> If Tesla had a solar installation supplying each charger, maybe they would have a stronger case, but from my experience "in the publics interest" is a very broad mandate for the ACCC, which it has used on numerous ocassions.
> By the way great discussion IMO.



It could if it was Holden itself installing them, why would Holden want to install chargers for other brands? 

It’s a pretty weak argument to say that Tesla needs to open up because it’s chargers use the national grid, that’s a bit like me saying you need to allow me to use your toaster because it’s plugged into the national grid, all the clubs we have mentioned use the grid and are connected to roads etc.

Tesla pays all the connection fees, usage charges etc to connect to the grid, it’s not being subsidised.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> It could if it was Holden itself installing them, why would Holden want to install chargers for other brands?
> 
> It’s a pretty weak argument to say that Tesla needs to open up because it’s chargers use the national grid, that’s a bit like me saying you need to allow me to use your toaster because it’s plugged into the national grid, all the clubs we have mentioned use the grid and are connected to roads etc.
> 
> Tesla pays all the connection fees, usage charges etc to connect to the grid, it’s not being subsidised.



If Holden installed them and only wanted holden people to use them, they would use a proprietary plug, as apple does.
But hasn't apple been told to change over to a type C so that other phone users can use their charger?
(*By 2024*_, all mobile phones and tablets to use USB Type-C charger. iPhones are charged from a Lightning cable, while Android-based devices use USB-C connectors_.)
Maybe if Tesla owned the land that they put the chargers on, they could have more say. But what if the Tesla chargers are on private land and the owners want them opened to all comers?
Tesla pays the connection fees and can pass them on to end users, don't new Tesla owners have to pay anyway? So really there is no moral ground to refuse access, or is it just on anti competition grounds.
It does open up a lot of questions, same as an all men's club, that men formed men may have paid for, as a quite place to go to, but they are being pressured to allow women in.


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## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> No, that is not true.
> 
> Anyone can go to Officeworks and purchase a modem - NBN Modem Routers
> 
> ...



Because you've signed a contract with Telstra, same as if you buy a Samsung phone with a usage package, until the contract is completed the phone is locked to the carrier.
Once the phone is out of contract and paid off, the carrier will unlock it and a person can then use the phone on any carrier.


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## JohnDe (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Because you've signed a contract with Telstra, same as if you buy a Samsung phone with a usage package, until the contract is completed the phone is locked to the carrier.
> Once the phone is out of contract and paid off, the carrier will unlock it and a person can then use the phone on any carrier.




Yesterday I tried to get internet reconnected to a property that has a modem, I had two options. Because the modem is proprietary based with a  internet provider, I could start again & wait for the new modem from the new provider, or go back to the original provider & sign up over the phone & have the connection work in an hour.

If I had my own Officeworks modem that is unlocked I would be up an using the internet with a phone call.

Where’s the ACCC in this one? Which affects millions of people.


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## Value Collector (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> If Holden installed them and only wanted holden people to use them, they would use a proprietary plug, as apple does.
> But hasn't apple been told to change over to a type C so that other phone users can use their charger?
> Maybe if Tesla owned the land that they put the chargers on, they could have more say. But what if the Tesla chargers are on private land and the owners want them opened to all comers?
> Tesla pays the connection fees and can pass them on to end users, don't new Tesla owners have to pay anyway? So really there is no moral ground to refuse access, just anti competition grounds.
> It does open up a lot of questions, same as an all men's club, that men formed men may have paid for as a quite place to go to, but they are being pressured to allow women in.



My Tesla uses the same plug as the Kona.

Tesla leases the land and pays rent to owners of the land the super chargers sit on, the land lords don’t get a say.

Yes Tesla owners still pay for the electricity to they take from the super charger, but having access to the net work is still a major perk, I would drive past a cheaper charging location to get to Tesla charger just because it’s a better experience. Eg. More stalls, less chance it’s out of order and no annoying log in or apps to deal with just plug in.

I think the ultimate reason to deny other brands is to preserve the customer experience of the people that the network was built for and the people that contributed to its construction.

————————-

Let’s say the construction of the super charger network has added $1000 to the cost of each Tesla sold, and the charging fees have simply covered the costs such as lease payments and electrical costs.

Technically for Hyundai or Toyotas to join our system they should be required to pay an upfront fee of $1000 + the charging costs.

This $1000 upfront fee can go towards adding more charging locations, so that their presence in the system doesn’t reduce the customer experience for those customers that have already contributed to the roll out of the net work.


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## JohnDe (26 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> My Tesla uses the same plug as the Kona.
> 
> …I would drive past a cheaper charging location to get to Tesla charger just because it’s a better experience. Eg. More stalls, less chance it’s out of order and no annoying log in or apps to deal with just plug in.




I also do that. The Tesla chargers are very easy to use, and the convenience of not having to log on or create an account is worth the extra fee.


----------



## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Thanks for the discussion you guys, it was fun and interesting.


----------



## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yesterday I tried to get internet reconnected to a property that has a modem, I had two options. Because the modem is proprietary based with a  internet provider, I could start again & wait for the new modem from the new provider, or go back to the original provider & sign up over the phone & have the connection work in an hour.
> 
> If I had my own Officeworks modem that is unlocked I would be up an using the internet with a phone call.
> 
> Where’s the ACCC in this one? Which affects millions of people.



Yes I have bought a portable charger, rather than a wall box and I will make myself an array of adaptors, so that I can use as many options as possible.
I agree with you regarding modems, I would always buy a third party modem if I was getting the NBN connected as I've done with the E.V charger, flexibility is the name of the game.
I don't have the NBN, just a wireless hotspot from the phone.


----------



## JohnDe (26 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I don't have the NBN, just a wireless hotspot from the phone.




That was one of my options and first port of call, but the 4G was very slow and couldn't cope. I needed a connection and ended up calling the original provider and paying for one month of internet at 50Mbps.


----------



## sptrawler (26 September 2022)

Volkswagen autonomous tech to rival long-distance travel by air or rail
					

Driver-less autonomous vehicles, fully equipped with beds and offices, could take the place of short-haul plane travel if Volkswagen is right.




					www.drive.com.au
				




The concept car, just unveiled in France, is a pod-style vehicle without any provision for a driver.
The passenger space has seats for four people, including a face-to-face provision for a mobile office, and it can also be configured for sleeping with two fully-reclining beds.
It has huge top-hinged doors for easy access to the cabin and the lack of traditional B-pillars to hinge the doors allows huge glass windows on both sides.
There is no plan for the Gen.Travel to serve as a taxi – instead it would be booked and configured for individual trips – and Volkswagen is yet to give any details of its range, battery pack or drive system, beyond the promise of electric Active Body Control for maximum comfort.
"As a research vehicle, the purpose of the Gen.Travel is to test the concept and new functionalities for customer response,” said Volkswagen.


----------



## Macquack (27 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Volkswagen autonomous tech to rival long-distance travel by air or rail
> 
> 
> Driver-less autonomous vehicles, fully equipped with beds and offices, could take the place of short-haul plane travel if Volkswagen is right.
> ...



I do love all this autonomous vehicle tech stuff, but the dinosaur in me would prefer to be awake and at the wheel when my car hits an oil slick in the rain.


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2022)

Macquack said:


> I do love all this autonomous vehicle tech stuff, but the dinosaur in me would prefer to be awake and at the wheel when my car hits an oil slick in the rain.



I agree, I can't see myself adjusting to autonomous driving cars, I can't sleep when the wife is driving, so there is no chance if a computer is doing it. I worked long enough with process controls, to know when it goes wrong, it ends badly.😲


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I agree, I can't see myself adjusting to autonomous driving cars, I can't sleep when the wife is driving, so there is no chance if a computer is doing it. I worked long enough with process controls, to know when it goes wrong, it ends badly.😲



People used to say the same about lifts controlled by machines.


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> People used to say the same about lifts controlled by machines.



That's true, the next generation who grow up with this technology, wont think twice about it.

Being older, overcoming learned responses, gained from the school of hard knocks, it isn't so easy.

https://www.therichest.com/shocking/15-horrific-elevator-accidents-thatll-make-us-all-avoid-them/ 🤣

I have worked on elevators in my career.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> That's true, the next generation who grow up with this technology, wont think twice about it.
> 
> Being older, overcoming learned responses, gained from the school of hard knocks, it isn't so easy.



One thing I have noticed, if I have passengers (particularly older ones) and I tell them we are on autopilot they seem on edge and question every little brake or lane change etc.

But If I don’t tell them and they think I am driving, people don’t seem to worry. If a car slows down in front of us and they think I am in control and applying the brake they are relaxed, but as soon as they know that it’s in auto pilot the are very jumpy and say things like “hey they car in front slowing down, tell it to slow down” hahaha.

It takes them a while to relax and just trust the system, at first I have to continually point out things like “see that green bar up here, that shows the car is already regen braking, it knows the cars in front are slowing and it’s already braking”

———————

My Dad has a Tesla, he is 70 his learning curve and acceptance of autopilot has been very slow, he is getting better but at first he was constantly jumping in and cutting off the autopilot in situations where it was fine.

You really need to be a relaxed person to enjoy autopilot I think, if you are the type of person hat stresses over trucks and other cars etc or are an aggressive driver it’s going to take a while to get used to it.

But if you are more chill and can just relax and be driven and let it do it’s thing without stressing over every move it’s great


----------



## Trader X (27 September 2022)

The EV 'social equity' dilemma that may put apartment residents off electric cars​The carpark in my previous apartment building had one changing station.  Totally inadequate for more than a small number of EVs let alone the entire carpark.  Social equity extends beyond charging of course as the affordability of EVs in general is likely to be an equity issue far beyond any date mandates to halt the sale or production of ICE vehicles.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> The EV 'social equity' dilemma that may put apartment residents off electric cars​The carpark in my previous apartment building had one changing station.  Totally inadequate for more than a small number of EVs let alone the entire carpark.  Social equity extends beyond charging of course as the affordability of EVs in general is likely to be an equity issue far beyond any date mandates to halt the sale or production of ICE vehicles.



Installing more power points in parking garages isn’t hard, it’s more about politics than anything else, as a bare minimum putting a power point at each car park should be very easy.

——————————

I think that Ev’s are actually more affordable for than other cars.

I know people will point out the higher sales price of EV’s as Evidence that they are going to harder for people to buy, but I don’t think that is going to work out being true for the following reason.

You see most people buy their cars using loans, so they aren’t paying the full price up front, so the their cost of vehicle ownership is actually a monthly expense rather than a lump sum.

So the the monthly cost of owning a petrol car is say

$600 car loan payment + $300 fuel + $70 servicing + some other costs.

With the EV the monthly loan payment will rising, but the cost of fuel and servicing will drop.

So if the loan payment rises buy $200/month because the EV was more expensive, that will be largely offset by lower fuel and servicing costs, meaning the monthly cost of ownership of the EV is less.

Of course once the loan is repaid, the debt free monthly cost of an EV drops significantly compared to the petrol option.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> One thing I have noticed, if I have passengers (particularly older ones) and I tell them we are on autopilot they seem on edge and question every little brake or lane change etc.
> 
> But If I don’t tell them and they think I am driving, people don’t seem to worry. If a car slows down in front of us and they think I am in control and applying the brake they are relaxed, but as soon as they know that it’s in auto pilot the are very jumpy and say things like “hey they car in front slowing down, tell it to slow down” hahaha.
> 
> ...




Yes, just try not to think about sensor failure, hacking, software problems etc.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes, just try not to think about sensor failure, hacking, software problems etc.



Or cardiac arrest, stroke, epileptic fit, moment of distraction, micro sleep or any of the other human glitches that frequently cause accidents.

A vehicle with autopilot engaged and a driver in the seat is far less likely to crash than a car with just a human driver.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Or cardiac arrest, stroke, epileptic fit, moment of distraction, micro sleep or any of the other human glitches that frequently cause accidents.
> 
> A vehicle with autopilot engaged and a driver in the seat is far less likely to crash than a car with just a human driver.



2 years ago my Mum fainted driving her car, she was quite sick and didn't realise it.
Luckily her foot went off the accelerator and she ran into a pole at the side of the road at a slow speed (maybe 15km/hr). Though she was on a major road the other drivers got our of her way.

Woke up in hospital and took a couple of weeks to fully recover from the sickness which I won't go into but wasn't injured from the car accident.
If she had autonomous driving she probably wouldn't have even damaged the car.

She is back on the road doing fine. She is now in her early 80s.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> 2 years ago my Mum fainted driving her car, she was quite sick and didn't realise it.
> Luckily her foot went off the accelerator and she ran into a pole at the side of the road at a slow speed (maybe 15km/hr). Though she was on a major road the other drivers got our of her way.
> 
> Woke up in hospital and took a couple of weeks to fully recover from the sickness which I won't go into but wasn't injured from the car accident.
> ...



Whoah, I am glad she is ok 👍🏼.

I witnessed a guy black out, unfortunately didn’t take his foot of the accelerator and drove down the foot path knocking over man, and then into the intersection where he T-boned another car.

Two heads are definitely better than one.


----------



## Trader X (27 September 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> If she had autonomous driving she probably wouldn't have even damaged the car.



This assumes your mum would have been inclined to spend $65k plus another $10k on top for FSD on a new M3.  Unlikely perhaps?  Fully autonomous operation will save lives in the future no doubt, for now it's totally unaffordable for the vast majority of car owners.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> This assumes your mum would have been inclined to spend $65k plus another $10k on top for FSD on a new M3.  Unlikely perhaps?  Fully autonomous operation will save lives in the future no doubt, for now it's totally unaffordable for the vast majority of car owners.



Most advance safety features start out in the more expensive cars and work their way down.

There was a time when airbags were a feature in only the top end cars.

—————————
But as I explained above, over their life EV’s have a lower cost of ownership, so maybe these advanced features aren’t as expensive as they seem.

Not to mention who can put a price on reducing fatal accidents, the stats show autopilot enhanced vehicles kill and maim less people.


----------



## Knobby22 (27 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> This assumes your mum would have been inclined to spend $65k plus another $10k on top for FSD on a new M3.  Unlikely perhaps?  Fully autonomous operation will save lives in the future no doubt, for now it's totally unaffordable for the vast majority of car owners.



The new Nissan Qashsqai (or Cashcow as the dealers call it) comes with automonous features and isn't that expensive 45K.

ProPILOT* is a revolutionary autonomous drive technology designed for highway use in single-lane traffic. Nissan is the first Japanese automaker to introduce a combination of steering, accelerator and braking that can be operated in full automatic mode, easing driver workload in heavy highway traffic and long commutes.

Employing advanced image-processing technology, the car's ProPILOT system understands road and traffic situations and executes precise steering enabling the vehicle to perform naturally. ProPILOT technology is extremely user-friendly, thanks to a switch on the steering wheel that allows the driver to easily activate and deactivate the system. ProPILOT's easy-to-understand and fit-to-drive interface includes a personal display showing the operating status.


----------



## Trader X (27 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Not to mention who can put a price on reducing fatal accidents, the stats show autopilot enhanced vehicles kill and maim less people.



Safety regulators set the standards, car manufactures put a price on safety features and you pay for it.  The cost of FSD is not comparable to the cost of other safety features such as airbags.  FSD is very expensive tech, that's why Tesla options it and charges subscription fees instead of it being included as standard equipment.

It's highly unlikely FSD will be a mandated safety feature on EVs or work it's way down the product line in the near future as standard equipment.  The cost savings of operating an EV instead of ICEV is highly variable and can only be profiled for a given use case.  With so many now taking advantage of flexible working arrangements and working from home, the cost savings of EV operation are diminished in that case. 

EVs will remain unaffordable and impractical to all but those living in highly developed, high wage economies.  Even then only to a minority of the populace.


----------



## Trader X (27 September 2022)

Knobby22 said:


> The new Nissan Qashsqai (or Cashcow as the dealers call it) comes with automonous features and isn't that expensive 45K.



No doubt autonomous driving features will get less expensive over time as competition in that space intensifies.  If ProPILOT is standard equipment  that will be one incentive to chose Nissan over a Tesla.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> Safety regulators set the standards, car manufactures put a price on safety features and you pay for it.  The cost of FSD is not comparable to the cost of other safety features such as airbags.  FSD is very expensive tech, that's why Tesla options it and charges subscription fees instead of it being included as standard equipment.
> 
> It's highly unlikely FSD will be a mandated safety feature on EVs or work it's way down the product line in the near future as standard equipment.  The cost savings of operating an EV instead of ICEV is highly variable and can only be profiled for a given use case.  With so many now taking advantage of flexible working arrangements and working from home, the cost savings of EV operation are diminished in that case.
> 
> EVs will remain unaffordable and impractical to all but those living in highly developed, high wage economies.  Even then only to a minority of the populace.



Base level autopilot is free, with Teslas. Only the advanced full self driving costs extra.

So all teslas will do autopilot and drive along in their lane.

The full self driving feature is what costs the extra money, which allows the car to navigate of auto pilot, over take slower cars, change lanes, merge off freeway etc etc.

————————-
You keep saying Evs are unaffordable, even though cheaper models are coming onto the market, and the basic economics of fossil fuels means the more we burn the more expensive they get, where as the more renewable electricity we use the cheaper it gets.

I am sorry if you haven’t picked up on the trends yet, but the trend is against fossil fuels, long term, the will continue their trend of being increasingly scarce and increasingly expensive, where as renewables will continue their trend of becoming cheaper.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The full self driving feature is what costs the extra money, which allows the car to navigate of auto pilot, over take slower cars, change lanes, merge off freeway etc etc.




So how much is the full package may I ask ?


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So how much is the full package may I ask ?



I am not sure how much it costs now, as more features are unlocked the price is going up, but I think I paid about $7000 for it back in 2019.

But once you buy it you own it for the life of the car, and you get all the new updates.

When I first got it in 2019 it didn’t really do much more than what the base model does, but now it does a fair bit more, and there are a lot of updates on the way.

Tesla plan is for it to eventually be fully autonomous and capable of basically being a driverless taxi that you can put to work to earn income, once they are at that level I imagine full “Robo Taxi mode” will probably cost quite a bit of money.


----------



## Trader X (27 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Base level autopilot is free, with Teslas. Only the advanced full self driving costs extra.



And the FSD features are what you're touting as life saving.



Value Collector said:


> You keep saying Evs are unaffordable, even though cheaper models are coming onto the market, and the basic economics of fossil fuels means the more we burn the more expensive they get, where as the more renewable electricity we use the cheaper it gets.



What I said was, "EVs will remain unaffordable and impractical to all but those living in highly developed, high wage economies." This will be true for many years to come.  The cost of renewable electricity will get cheaper in those economies that can afford the considerable infrastructure costs to properly support mass EV adoption.  Electricity grids are not designed to charge millions of cars overnight (that requires after dark baseload power) and battery storage in conjunction with solar panels is still a significant cost.  



Value Collector said:


> I am sorry if you haven’t picked up on the trends yet, but the trend is against fossil fuels, long term, the will continue their trend of being increasingly scarce and increasingly expensive, where as renewables will continue their trend of becoming cheaper.



LOL, I am well aware of this trend to move away from fossil fuels and support this initiative.  However, it's naïve to assume EV adoption in developed, high wage economies will have a significant impact on climate change or reduce the dependency of densely populated countries like India and China on coal fired baseload power generation (a massive greenhouse gas emission source).  It's far more likely that breakthrough advances in nuclear energy will be required to power the hundreds of millions of EVs futurists imagine on the planet's roads rather than solar panels on every rooftop or wind turbines scattered about the landscape.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> 1. And the FSD features are what you're touting as life saving.
> 
> 
> 2. What I said was, "EVs will remain unaffordable and impractical to all but those living in highly developed, high wage economies." This will be true for many years to come.  The cost of renewable electricity will get cheaper in those economies that can afford the considerable infrastructure costs to properly support mass EV adoption.  Electricity grids are not designed to charge millions of cars overnight (that requires after dark baseload power) and battery storage in conjunction with solar panels is still a significant cost.
> ...



1. No, regular old free autopilot is what I am touting as life saving.

2. That same statement was true for cars in general once, and in some places it’s still true.

3, even if we source some of our electricity though fossil fuels, it’s still more efficient to use those fossil fuels to generate electricity for Ev’s that it is to turn them into petrol for petrol cars.

For example, you can burn crude oil in a power plant and charge Ev’s and you will get more km’s of driving than you would by refining that crude oil down to petrol and burning it in a petrol motor.

Not to mention that the simple fact that very few electrical grids are going to be 100% fossil fuel where as petrol cars are almost 100% fossil fuel.

In fact I can tell you that the ability to charge my car off my own solar panels is a great perk of EV ownership, it’s much simpler than trying to refine my own crude oil.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure how much it costs now, as more features are unlocked the price is going up, but I think I paid about $7000 for it back in 2019.
> 
> But once you buy it you own it for the life of the car, and you get all the new updates.
> 
> ...



Yeah,  I was thinking that in a few years a lot of Ubers will likely be driverless.

Can't get covid from robots.


----------



## JohnDe (27 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I agree, I can't see myself adjusting to autonomous driving cars, I can't sleep when the wife is driving, so there is no chance if a computer is doing it. I worked long enough with process controls, to know when it goes wrong, it ends badly.😲




I could easily adjust to it 🤓 but we are still a way off from that day.

The Tesla system is good but it still has quirks & glitches, meaning that the driver still has to be aware & in control.

I’m currently driving 180km city to country and back every fortnight, the Tesla’s Autopilot helps and I’m more relaxed & refreshed after the drive. Yesterday I drove a car without it, and missed not having the extra assistance.


----------



## JohnDe (27 September 2022)

Seat belts & disc brakes were once an expensive optional extra on the purchase of a new car.


----------



## Trader X (27 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So how much is the full package may I ask ?



$10,100 AUD and set to rise apparently.


----------



## orr (27 September 2022)

I'm lucky I pop in here on occasion to get on top of  "the trends' otherwise... Pheww,   I'd fall for the stated intentions of places like Denmark and Japan, other places close to home,  to massively upscale their offshore wind production , Frances fast track of more nuclear, Nah hang-on misread that, it's Frances fast tracking of fixing all their broke nuclear And more actively Fast Tracking Off Shore wind.

The indefatigability of machine assisted driving is aready proving its worth, in less than ten years it will have saved trauma and grave trauma to that of millions and that's before we even think dollar cost saved. By then the technology, self driving, will be little more than a high school computer science project...  And that my friend is the trend, X.


----------



## SirRumpole (27 September 2022)

orr said:


> I'm lucky I pop in here on occasion to get on top of  "the trends' otherwise... Pheww,   I'd fall for the stated intentions of places like Denmark and Japan, other places close to home,  to massively upscale their offshore wind production , Frances fast track of more nuclear, Nah hang-on misread that, it's Frances fast tracking of fixing all their broke nuclear And more actively Fast Tracking Off Shore wind.
> 
> The indefatigability of machine assisted driving is aready proving its worth, in less than ten years it will have saved trauma and grave trauma to that of millions and that's before we even think dollar cost saved. By then the technology, self driving, will be little more than a high school computer science project...  And that my friend is the trend, X.




Yes and Internet banking will save us time and money. Of course it does, but the large scale risks are a lot higher as we have seen compared to just popping in to the bank at lunchtime.


----------



## qldfrog (27 September 2022)

Just finished reading "_Machines Behaving Badly: the Morality of AI" _by australian Toby Walsh
A stinking woke book to the point of whole chapters being unreadible but if you do not appreciate my own AI expertise, as this woke guy is a declared and recognized guru:
read his view on self driven cars in 2021_._
If this guys does not want to be driven by AI at the current state, i definitively would not, nor should you but hey, some people do russian roulette or try to train surf......


----------



## Trader X (27 September 2022)

orr said:


> The indefatigability of machine assisted driving is already proving its worth, in less than ten years it will have saved trauma and grave trauma to that of millions and that's before we even think dollar cost saved. By then the technology, self driving, will be little more than a high school computer science project... And that my friend is the trend, X.



Seat belts, EBS and air bags will save far more lives in the next 10 years than FSD and autonomous driving tech.  The cost of moving to EV tech is enormous, the transition will take decades and primarily affordable only to the affluent in advanced economies for many years to come.  FSD will become a high school project only when computer software does all the design, engineering and manufacturing with little thinking required by the operator and such AI available at an affordable cost.  Predictions are not trends, O.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Most advance safety features start out in the more expensive cars and work their way down.
> 
> There was a time when airbags were a feature in only the top end cars.



It was actual mainstream news, not motoring news I mean the 6pm TV news, when air bags first became available in a mainstream car.

Today well every car has them.

Likewise I remember a manager at work, who had some authority regarding fleet vehicles, getting excited about stability control then realising he needed to explain to everyone what, exactly, it was. That was only in the early 00's.

All this stuff ripples through the fleet over time.


----------



## Trader X (27 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> It was actual mainstream news, not motoring news I mean the 6pm TV news, when air bags first became available in a mainstream car.



As I recall, optioning air bags or seat belts or their inclusion as standard safety equipment was not equivalent to the price of a small car.

Tesla’s Full-Self Driving software is going up in price again​_"Tesla’s increasing the price of its Full-Self Driving (FSD) software to $15,000. In a post on Twitter, Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced that the new price will go into effect in North America starting September 5th, representing a $3,000 jump."_

Don't think trickle down economics will apply to Tesla FSD anytime soon.


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> It was actual mainstream news, not motoring news I mean the 6pm TV news, when air bags first became available in a mainstream car.
> 
> Today well every car has them.
> 
> ...



I picked up the car today, the thing that struck me was how easy it would be to be tail ended. 
I was driving down the freeway with max regen on and then realised the brake lights don't come on when you lift off the pedal and the car decelerates rapidly, the young girl in the car behind had eyes the size of saucers as she lit up the brakes.
I need to be careful of that.


----------



## qldfrog (27 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I picked up the car today, the thing that struck me was how easy it would be to be tail ended.
> I was driving down the freeway with max regen on and then realised the brake lights don't come on when you lift off the pedal and the car decelerates rapidly, the young girl in the car behind had eyes the size of saucers as she lit up the brakes.
> I need to be careful of that.



If you reduce speed significantly, putting brake light on should be a given.this is a bug IMHO


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> As I recall, optioning air bags or seat belts or their inclusion as standard safety equipment was not equivalent to the price of a small car.



Correct - hence why they weren't on mainstream cars until the price came down and it was newsworthy when that happened.

Same with all tech.

Air-conditioning in cars went from something actual millionaires had down to something that's in the cheapest utes and vans but it took a long time to get there. It's only circa year 2000 that practically all new cars came with it.

Power steering was still a feature back in the 1980's. Today there'd be a lot of younger people who've no concept that there is such a thing and that driving did indeed require far more physical effort in the past.


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2022)

qldfrog said:


> If you reduce speed significantly, putting brake light on should be a given.this is a bug IMHO



Yes I think I need to make up something that brings on the brake lights, when using high regen, it does pull up very quickly.


----------



## JohnDe (27 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I picked up the car today, the thing that struck me was how easy it would be to be tail ended.
> I was driving down the freeway with max regen on and then realised the brake lights don't come on when you lift off the pedal and the car decelerates rapidly, the young girl in the car behind had eyes the size of saucers as she lit up the brakes.
> I need to be careful of that.




Your car is faulty, call the manufacturer first thing tomorrow morning.

The brake lights should come on as soon as you lift your foot off of the accelerator on a regeneration system. I’ve checked mine & confirmed with other users.


----------



## Trader X (27 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Correct - hence why they weren't on mainstream cars until the price came down and it was newsworthy when that happened.



Missing the point entirely, such safety equipment was never even close to being as relatively expensive as FSD is today.  A/C, power steering, seat belts etcetera were hardly proprietary tech and available from multiple parts manufacturers so the price decreased rapidly.  Tesla is increasing the price of FSD, sells the software on a subscription basis and appears to have no intention of making it "mainstream" on their EVs.  The hardware is there but you pay dearly to use the proprietary software that enables it and totally captive to Tesla's pricing model.  So comparing FSD software to safety tech like seat belts or air bags is a non-sequitur.


----------



## sptrawler (27 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Your car is faulty, call the manufacturer first thing tomorrow morning.
> 
> The brake lights should come on as soon as you lift your foot off of the accelerator on a regeneration system. I’ve checked mine & confirmed with other users.



I will have to check, I just assumed it didn't as the car behind certainly had to hit the brakes hard, maybe they were tailgating and didn't pay attention.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> As I recall, optioning air bags or seat belts or their inclusion as standard safety equipment was not equivalent to the price of a small car.
> 
> Tesla’s Full-Self Driving software is going up in price again​_"Tesla’s increasing the price of its Full-Self Driving (FSD) software to $15,000. In a post on Twitter, Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced that the new price will go into effect in North America starting September 5th, representing a $3,000 jump."_
> 
> Don't think trickle down economics will apply to Tesla FSD anytime soon.



You keep mentioning that, even though I have already explained that autopilot, and the other safety features are free.

Let me say it a few more times.

Tesla Autopilot is free
Tesla Autopilot is free
Tesla Autopilot is free

Hopefully you now understand that Tesla Autopilot is free, you do not need to pay extra to use Tesla autopilot, it comes included in the cost of the vehicle, as does many other advanced safety features.

So just to let you know, Tesla Autopilot is free.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I think I need to make up something that brings on the brake lights, when using high regen, it does pull up very quickly.



Brakes lights in the Tesla  model 3 operate when you decelerate using regen.


----------



## JohnDe (27 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I will have to check, I just assumed it didn't as the car behind certainly had to hit the brakes hard, maybe they were tailgating and didn't pay attention.




When I first started driving mine I had the same concern, I found a users forum on Facebook so that I could find out for certain. I’ve also followed my wife while she has driven & used the regenerative braking. 
On our model the brake lights come on very quick, and the centre screen has a picture of the car which shows the brake lights activating.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yes and Internet banking will save us time and money. Of course it does, but the large scale risks are a lot higher as we have seen compared to just popping in to the bank at lunchtime.



I don’t know about that, I think being scammed over the internet might be safer than getting beaten up and mugged while withdrawing physical cash.


----------



## Value Collector (27 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> When I first started driving mine I had the same concern, I found a users forum on Facebook so that I could find out for certain. I’ve also followed my wife while she has driven & used the regenerative braking.
> On our model the brake lights come on very quick, and the centre screen has a picture of the car which shows the brake lights activating.
> 
> View attachment 147379



Yep, if you are regening down a hill maintaining the same speed brake lights don’t come on, but when you begin to decelerate they do.


----------



## Smurf1976 (27 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> Missing the point entirely, such safety equipment was never even close to being as relatively expensive as FSD is today. A/C, power steering, seat belts etcetera were hardly proprietary tech and available from multiple parts manufacturers so the price decreased rapidly.



A/C was seriously expensive at one point. It was something that even the bona fide rich saw as worthwhile only in places hot enough to warrant it.

Computers got cheap and everyone's got one in some form or another.

Private aircraft never got cheap and never became common. 

If FSD doesn't become economic then quite simply it won't become common. Same with most things.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I don’t know about that, I think being scammed over the internet might be safer than getting beaten up and mugged while withdrawing physical cash.



Yeah well, one person gets assaulted at a bank, 9 million get their identities hacked.

A slight difference of scale there.


----------



## Trader X (28 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You keep mentioning that, even though I have already explained that autopilot, and the other safety features are free



Never stated or implied autopilot was not free, FSD is definitely not free.  The difference is quite clear, are you going to suggest FSD is not an enhanced safety feature?
_
"Basic Autopilot comprises four key features: blind-spot monitoring, emergency braking, adaptive cruise control and lane-keeping assistance."_

BFD, a 4yo Mazda 3 Astina has these same safety features.  FSD is what makes the Tesla's standout, not autopilot which is a misnomer unless you want to apply that label to products from many other brands that incorporate their own versions of these features.


----------



## Trader X (28 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> A/C was seriously expensive at one point. It was something that even the bona fide rich saw as worthwhile only in places hot enough to warrant it.
> 
> Computers got cheap and everyone's got one in some form or another.
> 
> ...



Still missing the point, FSD software is proprietary and always will be, is a revenue stream for Tesla and likely never be "common" on a Tesla. Using your analogy then, FSD will never get cheap and therefore never become common.  Autonomous driving software on other brands may become more common if priced affordably.


----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> Never stated or implied autopilot was not free, FSD is definitely not free.  The difference is quite clear, are you going to suggest FSD is not an enhanced safety feature?
> 
> _"Basic Autopilot comprises four key features: blind-spot monitoring, emergency braking, adaptive cruise control and lane-keeping assistance."_
> 
> BFD, a 4yo Mazda 3 Astina has these same safety features.  FSD is what makes the Tesla's standout, not autopilot which is a misnomer unless you want to apply that label to products from many other brands that incorporate their own versions of these features.



Firstly, I take it you have never actually driven a Tesla while autopilot is enaged? Because you don’t seem to grasp exactly what it is.

Full self driving is not just a safety feature, I would consider it more of a high end luxury feature, that is going to get better and better.

Autopilot does make driving safer as the numbers clearly show, it reduces crashes and deaths vs cars that don’t have it engaged, and it’s free vs full self driving is a different animal the extra features are more for convenience and luxury than safety.

——————
So explain to me how the 3 year old Mazda 3 is the same as Tesla Autopilot?

Will the Mazda 3 drive itself for hours at a time without the driver having to steer? Will it change lanes itself with just a flick of the indicator, while making sure the lane is clear and pausing to wait for other cars to move? If it was doing an autopilot lane change and a vehicle from another lanes began merging into that same lane would it automatically avoid the collision?


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 September 2022)

Trader X said:


> Still missing the point, FSD software is proprietary and always will be, is a revenue stream for Tesla and likely never be "common" on a Tesla.



Almost certainly someone will come up with a comparable system at some point.

I'm pretty sure that the other major car manufacturers are all capable of buying a Tesla, reverse engineering every aspect of it, and coming up with their own version that's close but different enough to avoid infringing patents.

It won't happen tomorrow but at some point someone probably will do it.


----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

@Trader X 

Is this the Mazda Function you think is comparable to Teslas Autopilot?

If it is I think you need to go research what Tesla Autopilot actually does, because the autopilot on Teslas is nothing like this lane assist rubbish Mazda has.

The Tesla does have lane assist just like that Mazda, but that’s not what autopilot is, autopilot will drive in the centre of the lane, rounding corners etc and then even change lanes for you when you flick the indicator on.


----------



## Smurf1976 (28 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Yeah well, one person gets assaulted at a bank, 9 million get their identities hacked.



I've made my point about IT previously on this thread.

Brilliant things can be done but the entire industry has a problem in that it's prone to putting things into real world use without first undertaking comprehensive testing. There's a mentality that "we can always patch that later" which fails to grasp that yes, you can patch the code flaw but no, you can't undo the consequences that the flaw just put someone in real physical danger or worse.

I'm not against doing "smart" things - I just want to see proper, comprehensive testing _before_ any code is pushed out to real world use in road vehicles.


----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

Here is break down of the difference between free Autopilot and Full self driving.


----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've made my point about IT previously on this thread.
> 
> Brilliant things can be done but the entire industry has a problem in that it's prone to putting things into real world use without first undertaking comprehensive testing. There's a mentality that "we can always patch that later" which fails to grasp that yes, you can patch the code flaw but no, you can't undo the consequences that the flaw just put someone in real physical danger or worse.
> 
> I'm not against doing "smart" things - I just want to see proper, comprehensive testing _before_ any code is pushed out to real world use in road vehicles.



I agree with what you are saying in principle, but it’s also important to remember that humans aren’t perfect, and infact humans have all sorts of flaws, weaknesses and limitations built into our bodily hardware and software.

So any system that is designed and built to take over from humans doesn’t have to be 100% perfect and flawless, it just has to be better than the imperfect and flawed humans it is taking over from.

————————
Also, these systems do not currently “takeover” 100% of the operation from humans, they are an add on.

A vehicle with autopilot engaged should still have a human sitting in the drivers sit, and together the two systems (eg autopilots and the human) should work very well together and are proving to be more reliable and safer than stand alone humans.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> A vehicle with autopilot engaged should still have a human sitting in the drivers sit, and together the two systems (eg autopilots and the human) should work very well together and are proving to be more reliable and safer than stand alone humans.




The weakness in your argument is that humans think differently and can make decisions rapidly dependent on circumstances. Sure , some are idiots that shouldn't be on the roads but that's a consequence of our licensing systems.

As we have seen with the 737-MAX, if a software problem is replicated throughout the system (e.g every Tesla on the road), then the potential is there to effect much more people than a single person making a mistake.

I reckon a significant number of people will be lazy and treat self drive as infallible, and will play with their phones or otherwise get distracted and take their eyes of the road creating the potential for more accidents. However I concede that if the system is perfect then it will be safer than human drivers, I just don't think it ever will be perfect.


----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> 1. The weakness in your argument is that humans think differently and can make decisions rapidly dependent on circumstances. Sure , some are idiots that shouldn't be on the roads but that's a consequence of our licensing systems.



As I pointed out earlier Humans have lots of weaknesses, everything from only being able to look in one direction at a time, to medical issues to just plan of distraction.

So far the stats are showing that autopilot reduces the number of accidents and the number of deaths, and auto pilot is getting better and better.

Sure their was some 737-Max crashes, but you would have to compare that to how many crashes there would have been across the fleet over the years if aeroplanes function hadn’t been automated.

Imagine if autopilot in planes Didn’t exists, and the thousands of planes flying every day relied on pilots that had to be in 100% in control of the plane at all times.

——————
Can you concede that the system doesn’t have to be perfect to be better than imperfect humans?


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> As I pointed out earlier Humans have lots of weaknesses, everything from only being able to look in one direction at a time, to medical issues to just plan of distraction.
> 
> So far the stats are showing that autopilot reduces the number of accidents and the number of deaths, and auto pilot is getting better and better.
> 
> ...



I reiterate that flaws in software that is replicated over a large amount of vehicles have the potential to cause more damage than the weaknesses of a few individuals.


----------



## Knobby22 (28 September 2022)

Humans are terrible drivers.
As soon as a highway gets above a certain number of cars per lane, the traffic slows to a crawl due to:
-slow and distracted drivers, 
-drivers cutting into lanes slowing the cars they cut into,
-slow reaction times, once a car slows everyone else slows behind them to varying degrees causing a long term slowing effect. 

The day when we are banned from driving and the cars are computer controlled will be the day we can double the capacity of the roads and everyone get to where they are going in a much better time.


----------



## JohnDe (28 September 2022)




----------



## sptrawler (28 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Your car is faulty, call the manufacturer first thing tomorrow morning.
> 
> The brake lights should come on as soon as you lift your foot off of the accelerator on a regeneration system. I’ve checked mine & confirmed with other users.



I checked it out, you are correct, the brake lights work above a certain amount of regen.
Thats good, because at maximum regen it is pretty aggressive braking.


----------



## JohnDe (28 September 2022)




----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I reiterate that flaws in software that is replicated over a large amount of vehicles have the potential to cause more damage than the weaknesses of a few individuals.



Our human software and hardware flaws are replicated over all humans.


----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I checked it out, you are correct, the brake lights work above a certain amount of regen.
> Thats good, because at maximum regen it is pretty aggressive braking.



How are you finding the Regen? It took me a few days to get used to it, then it became second nature and now I miss it when I drive a non ev.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Our human software and hardware flaws are replicated over all humans.



But we also have genetic diversity, not all humans are alike, otherwise we would all be in jail, or there would be no jails.


----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> But we also have genetic diversity, not all humans are alike, otherwise we would all be in jail, or there would be no jails.



Yes, but none of us have 360 degree vision for example, where my Tesla can see 360 degrees, our genetic diversity doesn’t come close to allowing any of us to be perfect, automated systems that fill in those gaps are great.

But anyway my point is that an autopilot system with a human back up, is always going to be safer than the human alone, there a numbers backing this up, that’s why planes have autopilot to begin with.


----------



## sptrawler (28 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> How are you finding the Regen? It took me a few days to get used to it, then it became second nature and now I miss it when I drive a non ev.



I love it, but I ride a motorbike, so it is similar to using the gearbox and engine compression instead of brakes. The wife will take some getting used to it, on the Kona they have paddles behind the steering wheel which are very intuitive and easy to use. 
I have been explaining to the wife, it is the same principal as on the electric scooters, which she finds easier to get her head around.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> But anyway my point is that an autopilot system with a human back up, is *always *going to be safer than the human alone, there a numbers backing this up, that’s why planes have autopilot to begin with.




But the 737-MAX disproves that statement.

Would you believe "almost always" ?


----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> But the 737-MAX disproves that statement.
> 
> Would you believe "almost always" ?



How?

I am talking about averages, I am not saying zero planes or cars will ever crash, I am saying that on average they will be safer. 

As I said earlier if you wish to point to the problems with the 737-max, you have to weigh the damage that the problem there caused vs the damage that never happened because of the autopilot systems in all the other planes for the last 50 years.

I doubt that airlines would have the safety record they do now if you had never allowed all the automated safety features to be used.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am talking about averages,




No, you used the term "always", always is not an average.


----------



## JohnDe (28 September 2022)




----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> No, you used the term "always", always is not an average.



My whole argument is that autopilot is not perfect, but that it doesn’t have to be perfect to be safer than imperfect humans.

So, obviously I wasn’t using the word “Always” to suggest they are safer 100% of the time, I meant the odds are “Always” going to be leaning in their favour.

It’s a bit like a black jack player might say something like “You should Always stand on 16 or above” he is saying that because that’s statistically thats the safest option, off-course he is not suggesting that standing on 16 and above will guarantee a win every time.


----------



## Value Collector (28 September 2022)

JohnDe said:


>




Yep, I saw big lines at a few petrol stations today, but I just drove past them and plugged into the sunshine powered charger in my garage at home.


----------



## SirRumpole (28 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> My whole argument is that autopilot is not perfect, but that it doesn’t have to be perfect to be safer than imperfect humans.
> 
> So, obviously I wasn’t using the word “Always” to suggest they are safer 100% of the time, I meant the odds are “Always” going to be leaning in their favour.
> 
> It’s a bit like a black jack player might say something like “You should Always stand on 16 or above” he is saying that because that’s statistically thats the safest option, off-course he is not suggesting that standing on 16 and above will guarantee a win every time.




OK whatever. It's fascinating technology anyway. Might be dangerous for Tesla if a fault appears and they get landed with class actions. Better for business in the long run  to let drivers do the work and get blamed for accidents.


----------



## JohnDe (29 September 2022)

_"__*According to Euro NCAP*__, Tesla Model Y made at Giga Berlin was the safest vehicle ever tested bar none. In the Safety Assist department, the Model Y with camera-only Tesla Vision blew away the charts, with a near-perfect 98% score._​​_But you don’t have to take our words for granted, just head below and watch the video. Starting at 02:33, you’ll see the Tesla Model Y expertly avoiding whatever the testers threw its way, from moving dummies to other vehicles. Not once the safety assist software showed a weakness, which explains why the safety score was the highest ever achieved by any car."_​


----------



## Macquack (29 September 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Here is break down of the difference between free Autopilot and Full self driving.




That video was O.K., but it would have been so much better if Supercar Blondie did it. (at least I would have stayed awake).


----------



## basilio (29 September 2022)

One for the engineers on ASF

A $3k  3 day EV conversion. And some neat tricks to keep the Air Con and Power steering operational. Check it out.


----------



## Value Collector (29 September 2022)

Macquack said:


> That video was O.K., but it would have been so much better if Supercar Blondie did it. (at least I would have stayed awake).



Hahaha, I was scraping the barrel, I think I watched about 7 different videos to find one that explained the details without out going off on to many irrelevant tangents.


----------



## Value Collector (30 September 2022)

Man, After parking near an EV charger at a Woolworths near me every time I go there for the last 2 years but never using it, I only just realised that it is FREE. Talk about wasted opportunity 😅


----------



## noirua (30 September 2022)

The new Citroen all-electric family car that could power your home
					

The four-seater Citroen “oli” is an all-electric vehicle designed to be versatile, eco-friendly and affordable. Can it help families ditch their traditional cars?




					www.euronews.com


----------



## Boggo (1 October 2022)

Interesting.


----------



## JohnDe (1 October 2022)

*National Electric Vehicle Strategy*
Consultation paper
September 2022

*Ministers’ foreword*
The time has come for Australian households and businesses to reap the benefits of cheaper, low emissions transport that is fit for the 21st century. This consultation paper provides a chance for all Australians to have their say on a National Electric Vehicle Strategy to increase the supply and uptake of electric vehicles.
Excluding COVID-19’s impact, transport is Australia’s second largest source of national emissions. Most transport emissions are from road vehicles. Reducing these emissions will be critical to achieving Australia’s emissions reduction target of 43% on 2005 levels by 2030 and reaching net zero emissions by 2050.
Today, Australians are being sold some of the highest emitting cars in the world. On average, new passenger vehicles in Australia have around 20% higher emissions than the United States, and around 40% higher emissions than in Europe. We need to catch up to the rest of the world when it comes to transport emissions.
In 2021, EVs were just under 2% of new light vehicle sales in Australia, compared with 9% globally In the United States and Canada, new EVs had a market share over 5%. In the past year in New Zealand, EVs have gone from 2.5% of new registrations to over 11%.
Current policy settings have failed to secure supply of affordable EVs for Australians.
State and territory governments around Australia have implemented policies to encourage EV take- up, but coordination and alignment at the national level has been lacking. The Albanese Government is delivering on its election commitment to develop Australia’s first National Electric Vehicle Strategy to unlock the nation’s EV potential and reduce transport emissions.
This paper advances our genuine consultation with the states and territories, industry, unions and consumers.
We are also seeking views on implementing vehicle fuel efficiency standards in Australia. Australia is in company with Russia as one of the only major economies without vehicle fuel efficiency standards in place or under development. These policies are helping other countries reduce transport emissions, save motorists money at the bowser, and enhance consumer choices. They also preserve access to the range of vehicles people need for work and leisure.
And while any standards must be designed specifically for Australia, standards that lack ambition will still leave Australians at the back of the global queue for cheaper, cleaner vehicles. We need to aim for as close to best practice as is achievable. The scale of our climate challenge and soaring global fuel prices make it vital we bring the world’s best transport technology to Australians.
All Australians are encouraged to have their say on how we can transform Australia’s transport sector through the development of the National Electric Vehicle Strategy
The Hon Chris Bowen MP
Minister for Climate Change and Energy
The Hon Catherine King MP
Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government

*1 Introduction*
1.1 Current state
Globally, transport makes up nearly a quarter of total emissions. Road transport contributes around 75% of that share. In Australia, transport makes up 19% of national emissions. Road transport is close to 85% of those emissions (see figure 1). Addressing road transport emissions, particularly through electrification, is critical to Australia reaching net zero emissions by 2050.

Figure 1 Australia's transport emissions and road transport emissions (2019)1
Australia is currently behind many other advanced and emerging economies in electric vehicle (EV) uptake (see figures 2 and 3).
EVs are being deployed globally, with rapid innovation. The transition will make a significant contribution to achieving the global climate goal of keeping warming well below 2 degrees, and preferably to 1.5 degrees. EVs also offer lower running costs for consumers compared to internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles.



Electric vehicles are defined in this paper as battery electric vehicles (BEVs), plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs).






Figure 2 Australia’s new light vehicle sales, 2021 Figure 3 Comparison of new EV sales, 2021


----------



## frugal.rock (3 October 2022)

"Bernstein Analyst Highlights His Tesla Experience: 'I am not sure whether I will ever purchase another vehicle again from Tesla'"









						Bernstein Analyst Highlights His Tesla Experience: 'I am not sure whether I will ever purchase another vehicle again from Tesla' By Investing.com
					

Bernstein Analyst Highlights His Tesla Experience: 'I am not sure whether I will ever purchase another vehicle again from Tesla'




					au.investing.com


----------



## Macquack (3 October 2022)

frugal.rock said:


> "Bernstein Analyst Highlights His Tesla Experience: 'I am not sure whether I will ever purchase another vehicle again from Tesla'"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That guys only complaint was he didn't get his Tesla delivered fast enough.


----------



## frugal.rock (3 October 2022)

Macquack said:


> That guys only complaint was he didn't get his Tesla delivered fast enough.



Not his only complaint.
Delivery dates kept changing right up to when it was actually delivered and customer service was crap.
The customer service is the main thing he's not happy about. 
No one likes constantly shifting goal posts except the carny side show owner.


----------



## frugal.rock (3 October 2022)

Wall Street closes with sharp gains as final quarter begins
					

Wall Street's three major indexes rallied to close over 2% as U.S. Treasury yields tumbled.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## JohnDe (3 October 2022)

frugal.rock said:


> Not his only complaint.
> Delivery dates kept changing right up to when it was actually delivered and customer service was crap.
> The customer service is the main thing he's not happy about.
> No one likes constantly shifting goal posts except the carny side show owner.




Sounds like what happened to a couple of my mates. One ordered a Porsche Macan, the other a Kia Cerato GT. Both had the promised delivery dates extended by months. 
My Macan mate finally got a definite delivery date while away overseas, the dealership had to hold it for 3 weeks until he got back. Due to having numerous cars & going OS he wasn’t fussed.
The other mate was so put out he was ready to cancel & go buy a second hand car, but the dealership managed to get his order fulfilled only 6 months after the 3 month promise. Having so many delivery dates promises broken & ruined plans, he’s never going to buy the same brand again.

The world of ordering and having a new car delivered in several weeks are gone.


----------



## frugal.rock (3 October 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The world of ordering and having a new car delivered in several weeks are gone.



Yarp, but it's the way they go about it I guess.


----------



## JohnDe (6 October 2022)

There's always opportunity for those that can see



> *Tech billionaires Mike Cannon-Brookes and Cameron Adams rev up second-hand EV start-up*
> 
> Atlassian co-founder and tech billionaire Mike Cannon-Brookes’ philanthropic green energy fund Boundless has made its first investment, joining Canva co-founder and fellow rich lister Cameron Adams in pouring $10m into The Good Car Company, a second-hand car marketplace for electric vehicles.
> 
> ...












						Affordable Electric Vehicles in Australia | The Good Car Company
					

We provide high-quality and affordable electric cars and vans across Australia to assist in an equitable transition to low emissions transport.




					www.goodcar.co


----------



## sptrawler (6 October 2022)

Electric utes on the way.









						Volvo parent Geely starts making $40,000 electric utes
					

New electric ute from Volvo parent Geely hints at new wave of cheaper options.




					thedriven.io
				



Electric utes are all the buzz and it’s one EV segment where there aren’t any options currently available in Australia – yet. LDV has announced an electric ute for the local market but a new contender from Volvo parent Geely hints at a new wave of cheaper electric ute options.
Mass production and customer delivery of EV utes have seen many challenges by various brands across the world. 
That could be set to change with the production of the Geely-owned Radar Auto brand producing their first batch of Radar R6 utes this week.
Radar Auto launched back in July this year and within two months has already produced its first batch of EV utes with prices equivalent to $US25,240, under $A39,000 in Australian dollars.


----------



## basilio (9 October 2022)

Check out this absolutely brilliant electric city car.  See it to the end. Well worth the time IMV


----------



## SirRumpole (10 October 2022)

basilio said:


> Check out this absolutely brilliant electric city car.  See it to the end. Well worth the time IMV




I fear for that reporter's job. Jibing the boss is not career advancing !


----------



## SirRumpole (10 October 2022)

basilio said:


> Check out this absolutely brilliant electric city car.  See it to the end. Well worth the time IMV





I wonder if it's passed crash tests.


----------



## basilio (10 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I wonder if it's passed crash tests.




Interesting question. From the video the steel bar on the sides of the car are solid and an integral part of the structure.  

I certainly don't think there is any crumple zone though. From the walkthrough in teh factory it is a (relatively) robust construction for a micro car. The reviewer compared it favourably to the Citroen iteration which he said was far more flimsy (but half the price) 

However it seems to have passed regulations for sale in Europe becasue it is a production car.


----------



## qldfrog (11 October 2022)

basilio said:


> Interesting question. From the video the steel bar on the sides of the car are solid and an integral part of the structure.
> 
> I certainly don't think there is any crumple zone though. From the walkthrough in teh factory it is a (relatively) robust construction for a micro car. The reviewer compared it favourably to the Citroen iteration which he said was far more flimsy (but half the price)
> 
> However it seems to have passed regulations for sale in Europe becasue it is a production car.



From what i understand it is a microcar, has limited speed and so is outside the car specs regulation.
A bit like the Ligier vehicles
https://www.ligier.fr/en/..no driving licences required in France..classified as moped.
Not legal in Australia as far as i know a great scooter for cold and wet weather city driving


----------



## Dona Ferentes (11 October 2022)

China’s _new energy vehicle (NEV) _boom continues to power on with major producers, BYD and Tesla both reporting big sales jumps to record levels in September when the *total sector topped 600,000 sales* for the first time.

The China Passenger Car Association said in a report that total NEV sales were around 664,000 units last month (the final figures are out later in the week), up 87% year-on-year and up 5% from August.

Western analysts say that while sales have been boosted by government subsidies, so too have sales of internal combustion engine powered vehicles since mid-year after sales slumped badly in the Covid lockdowns, so there’s no real official preference for either type of vehicle.

The top three sellers were BYD sold 200,973 new energy passenger vehicles in September, Tesla China 83,135 and the SAIC-GM-Wuling joint venture,52,377.


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> From what i understand it is a microcar, has limited speed and so is outside the car specs regulation.
> A bit like the Ligier vehicles
> https://www.ligier.fr/en/..no driving licences required in France..classified as moped.
> Not legal in Australia as far as i know a great scooter for cold and wet weather city driving




The EV itself may have limited speed, but other vehicles of greater mass may crash into it and then the Microlino occupants will be mashed.


----------



## Value Collector (11 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The EV itself may have limited speed, but other vehicles of greater mass may crash into it and then the Microlino occupants will be mashed.



Yeah, but some people ride motorbikes and mopeds too. I guess not everyone feels they need to sit in a tank.


----------



## qldfrog (11 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> The EV itself may have limited speed, but other vehicles of greater mass may crash into it and then the Microlino occupants will be mashed.



who cares about common sense; being right does not mean the tests will be changed, as the tests check impact against a wall at different approach angles.
as long as you are not wedged, then the small car will bounce
obviously in real world, you will be pancaked between a wall, another car or truck and the latest US Ram Ute (3.5t..potentially towing15.8t :-(  )  that your Sydney plumber bought to can his box of tap seals for apartment maintenance ;-)
absolutely unwise in Australia IMHO


----------



## SirRumpole (11 October 2022)

Electric utes on the way apparently.









						Electric utes are finally here. They're about to dominate new car sales, report predicts
					

Australians have been told that electric utes will never work – and even that they don’t exist. Now, with the first models about to arrive in the country, a report predicts they're going to boom in popularity among fleet managers and tradies.




					www.abc.net.au


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## qldfrog (11 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Electric utes on the way apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



great news but that is ABC so as truthful as a G Bush.
They mentioned $20k extra vs diesel version.Will you save the 20k in diesel and service cost within 10y?
And a 350 km initial range after 5y, and on hot hilly roads with some load will probably go down to what 100km+ or 50km trip and return...
Great for the urban warriors driving back and forth to work..and fleet managers caring for these.less for real users
not yet a farm tool that is for sure
I also note once again that the only way for these to become popular is to force their use..sorry change emissions rules...
Let's see how many people will be able to afford..any .. new car in 5y time


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## SirRumpole (13 October 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Yeah, but some people ride motorbikes and mopeds too. I guess not everyone feels they need to sit in a tank.



Well the fact is that most of t he vehicles on the roads these days seem to be SUVs who would have trouble seeing a micro car.

If we all drove micros things would be fine, it may happen one day but until then the mass difference in a crash would be a concern.


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## Value Collector (18 October 2022)

@sptrawler 

You might get your wish of Tesla opening up its charging network if this pilot program goes well.









						Elon Musk Reveals Tesla’s Supercharger Profit As The EV Maker Prepares To Open The Network | Torque News
					

Tesla is currently conducting a pilot program to open up the supercharger network to none-Tesla vehicles. And this has raised the question, how much profit can the EV maker make from this move. Today, Elon Musk revealed the surprisingly small profit Tesla plans to make.




					www.torquenews.com


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## sptrawler (20 October 2022)

Value Collector said:


> @sptrawler
> 
> You might get your wish of Tesla opening up its charging network if this pilot program goes well.
> 
> ...



It's a no brainer for Tesla IMO, they are the most popular EV, so the more people who get over the range anxiety the better for Tesla, as it will mean more people will buy EV's. 
Win/ win for Tesla, they charge for network usage and more people buy EV'S, so more sales for Tesla.


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## JohnDe (20 October 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It's a no brainer for Tesla IMO, they are the most popular EV, so the more people who get over the range anxiety the better for Tesla, as it will mean more people will buy EV's.
> Win/ win for Tesla, they charge for network usage and more people buy EV'S, so more sales for Tesla.














						Tesla dominates EV sales figures by a long shot – here's why
					

Recently released EV sales figures provide a stark reminder of Tesla's dominance in the market – and the main reason behind it.




					thedriven.io


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## mullokintyre (23 October 2022)

Being in the middle of the the Goulburn Valley region where floods have been foremost in peoples minds these past few weeks,  i thought it interesting to look at what happens in the aftermath of major floods to the electric vehicles.
The recent hurricane in Florida which  caused widespread flooding gave us n insight to what might happen to EV's when they become water logged.

and 

Not all of them will spontaneously combust , but there have been enought to worry the local fire Chief.
Have not heard of any here in the GV yet, but then again, most of the low lying areas  contain older houses occupied by people who will never be able to afford a Nissan Leaf, much less a Tesla.
Mick


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## qldfrog (23 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Being in the middle of the the Goulburn Valley region where floods have been foremost in peoples minds these past few weeks,  i thought it interesting to look at what happens in the aftermath of major floods to the electric vehicles.
> The recent hurricane in Florida which  caused widespread flooding gave us n insight to what might happen to EV's when they become water logged.
> 
> and
> ...




Quick question: why do they bother watering these fires?
The battery will burn anyway, and it is not anymore a question of lowering temperature to reach below ignition point.you do not hose down a nuclear reactor to stop it..
I understand they may want to avoid burning the rest of the car, but with the battery being the whole floor.good luck.


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## mullokintyre (23 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Quick question: why do they bother watering these fires?
> The battery will burn anyway, and it is not anymore a question of lowering temperature to reach below ignition point.you do not hose down a nuclear reactor to stop it..
> I understand they may want to avoid burning the rest of the car, but with the battery being the whole floor.good luck.



The Tesla Emergency response sheets  says the following


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## qldfrog (23 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The Tesla Emergency response sheets  says the following
> View attachment 148375



So i summarise as
Let it become a controlled burn.....
But realistically, there might not be any other choice: by reducing the gear, you might prevent propagation to other near areas buildings or cars.
Imagine the cost if regulation added a requirement for an on board battery estinguishing mechanism...


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## JohnDe (23 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Being in the middle of the the Goulburn Valley region where floods have been foremost in peoples minds these past few weeks,  i thought it interesting to look at what happens in the aftermath of major floods to the electric vehicles.
> The recent hurricane in Florida which  caused widespread flooding gave us n insight to what might happen to EV's when they become water logged.
> 
> and
> ...





In my line of work I frequently have to answer questions from people telling me the 'facts' about my field of work. I've come to the conclusion that it is human nature to beleive everything and to fear the unknown.

One of my favourite quotes "Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself"

A question that I can not find an answer to - How many EVs have been involved in flooding, and of those, how many 'exploded' / caught fire?

EVs have been tested in deep water and can safely drive through deeper waters than ICE vehicles can (Grabianowski, 2008; Perry 2018).
EVs are safe to drive through water and hold no threat of electric shock when wet due to battery insulation. Charging in the rain is safe and holds no threat of short-circuiting, sparks, or other dangers.​Even if you don’t know much about electric vehicles (EVs), the most important characteristic of this type of vehicle is immediately apparent: electric cars are, well, electric. EVs are charged off an outlet through an electric current. The energy is then stored in a battery somewhere in the frame of the car (typically on the bottom, front, or back of the vehicle, depending on the model).​One question that EV experts are commonly asked is a variation of “Is it safe to use/drive/charge my EV when it is raining or wet?” The short answer is “yes!”​In fact, electric cars pose no threat of electric shock and are not dangerous to drive in the rain. Likewise, EVs are safe to drive through water, including deep puddles (though, of course, we would not recommend trying to drive though floodwaters) (Perry, 2018.)​The batteries and accompanying electric systems in EVs are isolated and equipped with extensive safety systems that automatically shut off power and insulate the battery packs when a collision or short circuit is detected (Grabianowski, 2008). It is pretty much impossible, under normal working conditions, for water to come into direct contact with the batteries themselves (Grabianowski, 2008). Also, consider the fact that your current gas car has an electrical system! Your internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle includes electrical sound systems, electric and digital screens, and electric systems to run the lights. These systems do not short out or shock anyone when you are driving in the rain or through a large puddle. The same is true for an electric vehicle—in fact, it can be argued that the battery systems in electric vehicles are far more insulated than the battery pack currently sitting under your hood.​

Is a battery electric vehicle safe in a flood?
_....there is the IP (International Protection) rating system that EV electrical components must comply with. (The IP rating is listed on many things we buy, but few of us take much notice of what it means).

A typical IP rating would be ‘IP65’ – the first number (6 in this example) refers to sealing against dry stuff getting in (eg fingers, dust) and the second (5 in this case) refers to water getting in. IP65 means the item is totally sealed against dust entering and is protected from low pressure jets of water from any direction.

EV electrical components, in particular those in the high voltage sections of the motor, speed controller and battery, are rated to IP66 or better. A 6 for water entry means ‘protected against strong jets of water’. (BTW: an ‘8’ is the highest water entry rating and is basically the water entry rating you would want for a submarine!)

Also, in most modern EVs the motor, speed controller and batteries are actually water cooled to ensure their longevity by maintaining an even temperature at all times – so an IP water entry rating of ‘8’ for these would be mandatory._


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## mullokintyre (23 October 2022)

JohnDe said:


> In my line of work I frequently have to answer questions from people telling me the 'facts' about my field of work. I've come to the conclusion that it is human nature to beleive everything and to fear the unknown.
> 
> One of my favourite quotes "Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself"
> 
> ...



I do not think the problem is potentiial shock from the EV battery.
EV's have been  exhibiting thermal  runaways activity for some time.
its not a very common occurrence, but it does and has occurred.
The fact that the Tesla data sheets  suggest what should happen to contain them highlights  it has happened before, and they are aware of its possibility.
The original tweets were about a number of EV's experiencing runaway thermal reaction after the Hurricane floods.
It may well be that some of them were exposed to sea water, seeing as Florida has the majority of its population near or on the coast.
It may be a corrosion issue, as salt water does some unpleasant things to just about any material.
Add the possibility of stray currents, even small, together with  the effects of electrolysis, all manner of things are possible.
Most cars these days carry a variety of metals, and the possibility of galvanic reactions between dissimilar metals increases in se water.
Boats often carry a sacrificial anode to try to counteract the effects.
Mick


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## Value Collector (23 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> .you do not hose down a nuclear reactor to stop it..



Actually you do, water cooling Nuclear fuel rods is pretty much the only way to prevent a melt down.

On the topic of the EV batteries, I don't know maybe hosing them down slows down the speed at which the battery cells melt lowering the intensity of the burning, I don't know I am just an investor, I will leave the fire fighting to the fire fighters.


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## qldfrog (23 October 2022)

An email chain turning around:
Army Takes Us For a Ride With Its New E-Vehicle



If we are to rely on e-vehicles to transport our soldiers through warzones, the Australian Defence Force is certainly doomed. Perhaps we should consider an even more environmentally-friendly, natural means of transport. Last month, amid great fanfare, an electric version of the battle-tested Australian Bushmaster (a concept E-Protected Mobility Vehicle) was launched in Adelaide.

The original, diesel-powered Bushmasters built in Bendigo served in the Afghanistan theatre. So impressive were they that allied combatants including the Netherlands and Britain purchased 120-plus of them. Currently, 20 Bushmasters are en route to active service with the Ukrainian Army. Other defence force customers of the Bushmasters include New Zealand, Fiji, Japan and Indonesia. The diesel-powered vehicle has an operational range of 800 kilometres.

So, now, an all-singing all-dancing concept electric prototype is ready for Army trials. It is anticipated that these e-Bushmasters will be silent and not generate the heat signature of a diesel vehicle.

Limitations

According to your ABC News of August 11, it is anticipated that the e-vehicle will have an impressive operational range of 1,000 kilometres. That is not yet the case, according to the Defence Department’s release of August 19, which says: “The first version has about a 100-kilometre range, but a planned larger battery should increase this to 350 kilometres. There’s also work to mount small external generators, increasing the range to about 1,000 kilometres.”

A small detail missed in the media hype was that the e-vehicle could not drive to the Adelaide launch. This was confirmed by the Minister’s office, which said the e-vehicle was transported from Newcastle (NSW) on the back of a motorised vehicle.

Lumbering Death Trap

The e-vehicle is a child sired by the Army’s “Power and Energy Paper” of March 2020. The lithium battery utilised in the e-vehicle features high-speed recharging; about three hours at an EV station; or, if the crew pull up outside a farmhouse and use the household plug, about seven hours.

An inconvenient feature of the large lithium battery is that if a bullet or shrapnel pierces its casing, the crew will probably be roasted alive. If it should happen in dense scrub, there is the possibility of a bushfire. A convoy of E-Bushmasters rolling at 100 kilometres per hour from Melbourne to Sydney (870 km) would, with nine stops at EV points, take 36 hours (1½ days) to arrive; while the same 870-km trek in outback South Australia, Queensland, Western Australia or the Northern Territory stopping at farms to recharge would take 72 hours (three days). Diesel-powered Bushmasters can cover the same distance – with driver breaks every two hours – in about 11 hours (half a day).

But do not despair; Assistant Minister for Defence Matt Thistlethwaite said the electric Bushmaster is part of building a “future ready” Army. Standard Operating Procedure for an army field-force convoy movement is to place the slowest vehicles in the lead. A worry for any convoy commander if he was moving a mixed convoy of motorised and e-vehicles would be the requirement to halt every 100 kilometres to recharge the electric units.

Moreover, not all e-vehicles would stop at the same location because some might “run out of puff” after 90 kms, others at 95 kms, or 98 kms, well short of the recharge point. A convoy with 20 e-vehicles would require a recharge point with 20 EV stations or 20 power points at a farm.

Missing in Action

A timely lesson for the Army comes from the Gloucestershire Constabulary, which boasts the largest full electric fleet in Britain, 91 vehicles. Its problem is simple: the force cannot respond to crime because the batteries “keep going flat”. Police and Crime Commissioner Chris Nelson said officers had experienced problems finding recharging facilities in the county as the e-vehicles “run out of puff”, and staff needed to change police cars.

Police Scotland invested £20 million ($A34 million) providing 23 stations with e-vehicles but no EV charging points. When their vehicles were plugged into the station’s regular power point, the latter blew up. Now the e-vehicles are left at council car parks overnight with officers reverting to combustion-powered vehicles. The e-Bushmasters engaged in a limited conflict in the remote outback or even in rural areas and “running out of puff” would certainly meet the Army’s “silent” criterion.

Natural Alternative

While it is easy to criticise a work in progress, any correspondent worth his salt should provide an interim workable solution that will work until the Army’s R&D e-vehicles are perfected before we face an invasion or shortage of liquid fuels. Luckily, there is a solution to this self-defeating “carbon-constrained economy” nonsense: the camel.

Australia has (perhaps) a million feral camels roaming the Outback. Australian soldiers rode camels into battle during World War I in the Mesopotamia campaigns. Camel trains were used in remote Australia as each animal could carry 100 kilograms of stores, or be harnessed in teams to haul wagons. In a military emergency, camel teams could haul “out-of-puff” e-vehicles to the nearest power point. A good camel will travel at five km/h; so, she’ll be right, no urgency; the troops can wait.

The Army’s use of camels would be an innovative carbon-reduction “work in progress” of Labor’s Climate Change Bill, now before the Senate, and would easily impress the UN’s climate barons and other assorted global-warming alarmists.

___

By Tony O’Brien.

Originally published at News Weekly.


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## qldfrog (23 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> An email chain turning around:
> Army Takes Us For a Ride With Its New E-Vehicle
> 
> 
> ...



I noted the
There’s also work to mount small external generators, increasing the range to about 1,000 kilometres.”
Aka not EV: hybrids or to put it back to real words ICEs...
They will pull a trailer with a diesel generator?  Do not laught, we are in 2022 and this would be sold as ingenuity.....


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## JohnDe (23 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> There’s also work to mount small external generators, increasing the range to about 1,000 kilometres.”
> Aka not EV: hybrids or to put it back to real words ICEs...
> They will pull a trailer with a diesel generator?  Do not laught, we are in 2022 and this would be sold as ingenuity.....




It’s a good thing that we have experienced people in the engineering & design field, and not thought bubbles 🤓

“As we are seeing around the world today, modern military personnel are joined on their missions by machines. This symposium enables Army to work with industry to explore new and emerging technologies,” Assistant Minister Thistlethwaite said.

“It is vital we support the exploration and development of these technologies, creating innovative advantages for the Australian Defence Force while supporting Australian industry and jobs.”

“We have seen great success with Australian designed and built vehicles keeping personnel safe under fire and the new ePMV represents the next innovative stage in that tradition,” Thistlethwaite said in a statement. “This ePMV brings the benefits of *electric vehicles to the battlefield, particularly being quieter than its combustion counterparts*, and I look forward to seeing it perform in field trials.”


“As we are seeing around the world today, modern military personnel are joined on their missions by machines,” he added, noting that the symposium enables the Australian Army as well as the wider ADF to collaborate with the local defence industry to explore new and emerging technologies.

The prototype ePMV features a series hybrid propulsion system that comprises a diesel engine that produces up to 400 kW of continuous power for vehicle electronics and mission systems, as well as charge batteries that enable the vehicle to operate for up to 24-36 hours on ‘silent watch’ or travel distances of 200-300 km.


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## SirRumpole (24 October 2022)

JohnDe said:


> It’s a good thing that we have experienced people in the engineering & design field, and not thought bubbles 🤓
> 
> “As we are seeing around the world today, modern military personnel are joined on their missions by machines. This symposium enables Army to work with industry to explore new and emerging technologies,” Assistant Minister Thistlethwaite said.
> 
> ...



It sounds similar to a diesel electric submarine to me.

When will we get the nuclear version?


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## JohnDe (24 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It sounds similar to a diesel electric submarine to me.
> 
> When will we get the nuclear version?




Same principle, stealth mode. The prime mover diesel engines are very loud, especially under load, and can be heard for miles out in the field. An electric engine is almost silent, the vehicle would have to be almost on top of you before anyone realising.


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## qldfrog (25 October 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Same principle, stealth mode. The prime mover diesel engines are very loud, especially under load, and can be heard for miles out in the field. An electric engine is almost silent, the vehicle would have to be almost on top of you before anyone realising.



Only good in a guerrilla scenario and in a guerrilla scenario, you do not have any need for these.
Let's be real...noise an issue on a battlefield for troop carriers?
But at least, they will be able to drive around Australia in non war situation , without being forbidden access to cities or states etc by the local green teal/watermelons councils and will not wake up population living along the roads in the cities.
Actually a plus so
Wasting money that way is better than buying nuke submarines or F35 in 2022.a better waste...Build electric drones instead


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## JohnDe (25 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Only good in a guerrilla scenario and in a guerrilla scenario, you do not have any need for these.
> Let's be real...noise an issue on a battlefield for troop carriers?




Sounds (pun intended) like you have little concept of modern warfare.

Even in WWII stealth was required by troops to sneak up on enemy positions, getting close gave the advantage of surprise and greater chance of success.

Patrols need to be able to see their enemy before they themselves are heard.

There are many different scenarios in war and battles. Open fields and outback Australia patrols traveling at night in a near silent vehicle would be very difficult to spot, but a noisy 7.3L Cummins diesel would be heard for miles.









						Bushmaster goes electric: Australia unveils silent, electrified personnel vehicle
					

The Australian defence force is going green - and for good military reasons - with an electric version of the famous Bushmaster.




					thedriven.io


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## mullokintyre (25 October 2022)

NSW has announced that over 500 fast and superfast chargers have been funded to be rolled out in that state as part of the intial 39mill  funding package.
From  NSW Government


> More than 500 new fast and ultra-fast charging bays are set to be built across NSW to recharge electric vehicles (EVs) in just 15 minutes.
> Treasurer and Minister for Energy Matt Kean announced the NSW Government is investing $39.4 million in the first round of Fast Charging Grants to co-fund 86 new fast and ultra-fast EV charging stations, each with four to 15 bays.
> “This investment will see the largest, fastest and most comprehensive public EV charging network in Australia,” Mr Kean said.
> “Each of these stations will contain a minimum of two ultra-fast EV charging bays of 350kW capacity, and two fast charging bays of 175kW, with some stations containing up to 15 bays.
> ...



Will be interesting to see who actually owns these stations, and what arrangements the NSW government has made  to ensure that the tesla ones are available to all vehicles, not just Tesla vehicles. pricing will be interesting, wondering if the NSW govt has any control over pricing of the electricity.
Be nice if som of the other states followed suit.
Mick


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## JohnDe (25 October 2022)

I can see why non-Tesla EV owners are infatuated with the Tesla charging system. With over a year of ownership, and having traveled country roads and interstate, I have not had one single issue with charging my Tesla M3.

*Tesla dominates charging experience satisfaction, and that’s a problem now that it’s going public*

Owners of other EV brands will eventually be able to use the Tesla charging network, at a premium over Tesla owners of course. Each country's activation of the Tesla network to other brands will be dependent on excess capacity.

*Elon Musk explains how non-Tesla EV owners are going to be able to use the Supercharger network*


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## Value Collector (25 October 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> It sounds similar to a diesel electric submarine to me.



Yep, actually sounds pretty good it would allow for tactical movements, Imagine a convoy or a patrol to be able to leave a location silently under the cover of darkness, or an assault group being able to approach a target without the sound of 5 Diesel engines giving away their position.


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## Value Collector (25 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Only good in a guerrilla scenario and in a guerrilla scenario, you do not have any need for these.
> Let's be real...noise an issue on a battlefield for troop carriers?



You don't have a military back ground do you?

There is unlimited number of situations where for tactical reason having a near silent vehicle is an advantage.

When we were operating out of vehicles its noise was always a factor, for example it was standard procedure at my regiment that that when we were starting our vehicles all the drivers would watch for the signal given by the person in command and would all start their vehicles at exactly the same time, so that anyone with in ear reach wouldn't know the exact number of vehicles we had.

If an enemy group does here your vehicles coming, the longer they have to evade you or worse plan a quick snap ambush on you.

The more information the enemy has on your exact position the worse it generally is for you, So we wear Camouflage, we drive with out head lights, we try to limit other signatures like smell and noise, vehicles noise is obviously part of that.


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## qldfrog (25 October 2022)

The gov decides to build charging stations recharging cars in 15min..just have to find the cars which can ......
So easy to govern...
"I have decided to fund a staircase to the moon and develop the perpetual engine, we got the blueprint from the web..."


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## JohnDe (25 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> The gov decide to bud charging stations recharging cars in 15min..just have to find the cars which can ......
> So easy to govern...
> "I have decided to fund a staircase to the moon and develop the perpetual engine, we got the blueprint from the web..."




Will it be free to charge vehicles from the charging stations you mention?


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## Value Collector (25 October 2022)

qldfrog said:


> The gov decides to build charging stations recharging cars in 15min..just have to find the cars which can ......
> So easy to govern...
> "I have decided to fund a staircase to the moon and develop the perpetual engine, we got the blueprint from the web..."



You have to understand a bit about EV charging and how owners use and charge EVs before coming to opinions about them.

Ev’s like Teslas can take enough charge at a fast charger in 15 mins to get them to about 80% or enough to do about 3 hours or driving.

But, most EV owners charge at home and begin the day with a full battery, so never end up having to use public fast chargers on the regular.

If they do find themselves needing a charge after driving around all day, they might only have to charge as little as 3 or 4 mins to get enough charge to get how where they will complete a full charge.

Also, given that they start the day with around 400km of range, and a 15 min charge will give them another 300km, they can drive 700km with only needing to break for 15mins (and who doesn’t stop for 15mins during a 700km drive anyway?)

————————-

So don’t get wrapped around the axels when it comes to charging, as I said most will be done at home overnight, you won’t need to worry about visiting public chargers often.

I know because you are used to driving petrol and diesels you are in the routine of constantly visiting petrol stations, but that is not what driving an EV is like.


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## orr (25 October 2022)

Was it the culture? Hubris? sunk cost fallacy or what???.... why did it take Toyota so long????
To the guy's at the head of that  company ... Seppuku is not the answer, but speeding  in the transition is....









						Exclusive: Toyota scrambles for EV reboot with eye on Tesla
					

Toyota is considering a reboot of its electric-car strategy to better compete in a booming market it has been slow to enter, and has halted some work on existing EV projects, four people with knowledge of the still-developing plans said.




					www.reuters.com


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## Value Collector (25 October 2022)

orr said:


> Was it the culture? Hubris? sunk cost fallacy or what???.... why did it take Toyota so long????
> To the guy's at the head of that  company ... Seppuku is not the answer, but speeding  in the transition is....
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, you would have thought we would have had full electric Priuses by now.


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## rcw1 (25 October 2022)

Good evening
Federal Budget:

Electric vehicles

* An additional $275 million to deliver the $500 million electric vehicle charging network, including funding for 117 highway charging sites

* $345 million Electric Car Discount will exempt eligible EVs from fringe benefits tax (FBT) and 5 per cent import tariff, saving $9000 on a $50,000 EV

Kind regards 
rcw1


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## Value Collector (26 October 2022)

@sptrawler  I know you have been interested in battery materials in the past, at the 6 min mark of this video they discuss some of the latest announcements involving Teslas battery production ramp up and battery materials are mentioned. (they do plan on ramping up the stationary battery devision, I am guessing that will consume a lot of the Iron based batteries)

These guys do great video for people interested in keeping up with EV news.


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## JohnDe (27 October 2022)

Tesla asking the public to nominate locations that need a supercharger network.

*Suggest a Supercharger Location*
Propose a location for our next Supercharger installation.


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## mullokintyre (29 October 2022)

Friday I had the chance to test drive a BYD atto3.
The range of these  is not as good as I would have liked, but  I thought we should evaluate it anyway.
First impressions were good.
I  got in and drove it without having to be schooled on  regen braking, sports/v econo/v standard mode.
Did not seem that much different to the CX5 I drove down to Melbourne to do the test drive.
Drove over a couple of speed bumps in  in the suburban streets, and the ride is soft enough.
Even with the sports mode engaged, its not as quick as the Tesla I drove a few years ago, and not  like the polestar  or Volvo, especially on takeoff.
The hold function caught me out in traffic on a small hill, as it took me about 10 seconds to get it off.
The interior was spacious, especially in the rear, and was better than I expected.
Some of the gimicky things like the banjo strings on the door pockets a, the weird door openers and the  gambling chips used as vent air directors I can take or leave.
The thing that I did not like was the crappy tyres. They are noisy ,,and when i planted the foot in the wet, the rear end  seemed to want to skip a bit sideways.
Its not as good as the polestar or the volvo that my wife likes, but  neither of them are a $30,00 better car.
But i did think that it was better than the  MG and Niro that i drove.
The most important part was that my less than agile body had a relatively easy time of getting in and out.
The longer wheelbase compared to its competitors the MG and the Kona hopefully means there will be less pitching on some of our less than great country roads.
The part that surprised me was the V2L capabilities, thought he charming young lady who showed me through it and superivsed my test driving was sure what amperage you could draw through it, and looking at the cheesy  multiplug  that comes with it, will not let you run a coffee machine through it, but it does at least have it.
Dissapointing was the lack of apple carplay , along with not having a in car navigation system, which its rivals have.
The young lady assured that this is coming in a wifi update, but given she did not now who the  sim provider was and whether it would work outside of the city areas, I was not completely filled with confidence.
Had the  easy fix childs car seat attachment points, which is important to use for the grandkids. They did not bother putting three sets of attachment points in the rear and pretend you can fit three car seats across, which is not possible unless you have something the size of bus.
The camera system was brilliant, which it needs to be because the rear vision via the mirror is pretty  ordinary.
The C pillars are chunky, and the rear seats  restrict rear vision via the mirror.
They offered me a pretty good trade in on the  Cx5, which made the changeover value at less than 20k.
So it becomes a pretty compelling deal.
We may consider using the diesel ranger for longer trips, and the BYD for shorter stuff, should we buy it.
Mick


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## qldfrog (29 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Friday I had the chance to test drive a BYD atto3.
> The range of these  is not as good as I would have liked, but  I thought we should evaluate it anyway.
> First impressions were good.
> I  got in and drove it without having to be schooled on  regen braking, sports/v econo/v standard mode.
> ...



Thanks for the review,so far this is the only ev i would even consider.


----------



## JohnDe (31 October 2022)

*European Union bans sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2035 to boost electric vehicle uptake*

The European Union has struck a deal on a law to effectively ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2035, aiming to speed up the switch to electric vehicles and combat climate change.
Key points:​
The agreement makes it impossible to sell new fossil fuel-powered vehicles in the EU​
The deal also includes a 55 per cent cut in CO2 emissions for new cars sold from 2030 versus 2021 levels​
Volkswagen signals it will only produce electric vehicles in Europe from 2033​
Small car makers producing less than 10,000 vehicles per year can negotiate weaker targets until 2036, when they would face the zero-emission requirement.


----------



## mullokintyre (31 October 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Friday I had the chance to test drive a BYD atto3.
> The range of these  is not as good as I would have liked, but  I thought we should evaluate it anyway.
> First impressions were good.
> I  got in and drove it without having to be schooled on  regen braking, sports/v econo/v standard mode.
> ...



I should also point out that the price of the BYD is  almost identical in price to the new CX5 that my wife was considering, with pretty much the same features, minus the  in car navigation and car play.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (31 October 2022)

*What a debacle - why I don't have my BYD electric car yet*


----------



## JohnDe (31 October 2022)

Delivery delay - 



> *BYD Atto 3 stop-delivery notice extended for another week*
> 
> Deliveries of the BYD Atto 3 electric car from China have been paused for another week while the company addresses vehicle compliance concerns with Australian regulators.
> 
> ...


----------



## basilio (1 November 2022)

One of the big features of electric  cars is dramatically reducing air pollution from millions of cars and trucks.
Delhi holds one of the records for air pollution world wide courtesy of...  well everything really..

However one bright spark has come up with a invention to save the health of motor cyclists (on their ICE wheels ?) from choking on stupendous levels of pollution.

India's state-funded motorcycle helmet promises 'fresh air' for riders in battle on winter smog​Posted Mon 29 Aug 2022 at 1:57pmMonday 29 Aug 2022 at 1:57pm


 Cars and motorcycles drive through heavy smog in New Delhi. India was home to 35 of the world's 50 most polluted cities in 2021.(Reuters: Anushree Fadnavis)
Help keep family & friends informed by sharing this article

As India's capital of New Delhi prepares for winter — and the accompanying season of acrid smog — the government is promoting a motorcycle helmet fitted with filters and a fan at the back that it says can remove 80 per cent of pollutants for the person breathing inside.
Key points:​
India's government is backing a motorcycle helmet fitted with air filters and a fan for riders affected by the country's heavy smog
India's cities are among the most heavily polluted in the world, with New Delhi's air at its worst from mid-December to February
The maker of the helmet is focusing on producing a lighter, cheaper version to make it accessible to the mass market

State agencies have pumped thousands of dollars into Shellios Technolabs, a start-up whose founder, Amit Pathak, began work on the helmet in a basement in 2016.

That was the year of the first headlines about the filthy air that makes New Delhi nearly unbreathable from mid-December to February, as the heavy cold traps dust, vehicle emissions and smoke from burning crop waste in nearby states.

"Inside a home or office, you could have an air purifier," said Mr Pathak, an electrical engineer.
"But the guys on the bike, they have no protection at all."

So his company designed a helmet with an air purification unit, fitted with a replaceable filter membrane and a fan powered by a battery that runs for six hours and can be charged through a Micro USB slot.









						India backs helmet fitted with fan, air filters to combat smog problem
					

As New Delhi prepares for the usual heavy winter smog, the government is promoting a helmet it says can remove 80 per cent of pollutants for the person breathing inside.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## JohnDe (1 November 2022)

basilio said:


> One of the big features of electric  cars is dramatically reducing air pollution from millions of cars and trucks.
> Delhi holds one of the records for air pollution world wide courtesy of...  well everything really..
> 
> However one bright spark has come up with a invention to save the health of motor cyclists (on their ICE wheels ?) from choking on stupendous levels of pollution.
> ...




And noise pollution is also sorted.


----------



## JohnDe (3 November 2022)

I mentioned this happening in the UK and Europe in another post or thread not long ago, looks like were caching up fast.



> *Want an electric car but can't charge it? A private kerb-side trial could be the solution*
> 
> Brent Johnston is one of a growing number of Australians looking to purchase an electric car and coming up against the same problem.
> 
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (3 November 2022)

Its only two years late, but tesla finally says it will start production of its  Cybertruck in mid 2023.
From Rueters


> Tesla said last month it was working on readying its Austin, Texas, plant to build the new model with “early production” set to start in the middle of 2023. “We’re in the final lap for Cybertruck,” Musk told a conference call with financial analysts.A gradual ramp in the second half of next year to full output for the sharp-angled electric truck would mean that Tesla would not be recording revenue until early 2024 for a full-quarter of production on a new model expected as key to its growth.



The problem is, unlike with the Model X, model s , model 3  Tesla has some stiff compettion.
Rivian, although small in numbers, will have been delivering trucks for two years before Tesla starts.
The F150 ligtening will be producing 150,000 trucks  a year before then, plus there is the wanky electric hummer,  the GMC Sierra and silverado, both of which will  be in production before the tesla.
At least it will beat to the market the other biggie, the RAM trucks will not be starting deliveries until 2024 (see Drive.com  ). 
All of those trucks have big followings in the US market, and to some extent here in OZ, although none of them have committed to bringing a RHD version to OZ (yet?).
Mick


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## mullokintyre (3 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> *What a debacle - why I don't have my BYD electric car yet*




A very comprehensive report by  Sam, and I think he was very even handed.
We have progressed to sending off details  to BYD, but have told them will not give them any money until they guarantee delivery.
My wife pointed out some posts on FB where people have paid money, arranged insurance, can see the car registered in their names on the  state registration web sites, but are still waiting for physical delivery of the car.
One guy even said that because his was leased, the finance company had paid for the vehicle, but could not start taking payments until delivery.
Wonder how long that one will last!
BYD in China may have to rethink their relationship with EV Direct, which seems to be the main culprit in this, but maybe its just teething problems.
We also still have the Volvo on order,  one of them will be cancelled, just depends which one can deliver.
Mick


----------



## SirRumpole (4 November 2022)

Debate on electric car bill bogged down in Parliament.









						Calls for a swift deal to make electric cars cheaper
					

Electric vehicle legislation is a Labor election promise that could make popular models, such as the Nissan Leaf, up to $2,000 cheaper for some individuals and $9,000 cheaper for employers who run fleets.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## JohnDe (4 November 2022)

> *Volvo pulls plug early on petrol cars for Australia*
> 
> Volvo says it will stop selling petrol vehicles in Australia by 2026 – four years before its global all-electric deadline – with the carmaker calling internal combustion engine production a “shrinking business”.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (4 November 2022)




----------



## rcw1 (8 November 2022)

Good morning

It has been published 7 November 2022, that The European Parliament has stated, European Union negotiators had mapped a proposal for “zero-emission road mobility by 2035.”









						European Union May Have Sealed The Fate Of The Internal Combustion Engine
					

The European Union has officially mandated that all vehicles from 2035 onward must produce zero emissions. What does that mean for engines?




					www.musclecarsandtrucks.com
				





Kind regards
rcw1


----------



## sptrawler (9 November 2022)

rcw1 said:


> Good morning
> 
> It has been published 7 November 2022, that The European Parliament has stated, European Union negotiators had mapped a proposal for “zero-emission road mobility by 2035.”
> 
> ...



Australia has legislated a reduction in carbon by 2030, I've promised myself a Porsche Taycan by 2030.
It will be interesting to see if any of us achieve our goals.


----------



## Value Collector (9 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Australia has legislated a reduction in carbon by 2030, I've promised myself a Porsche Taycan by 2030.
> It will be interesting to see if any of us achieve our goals.



Buy some FMG shares, and if Twiggy is successful both you and the government will reach your goals 😜


----------



## rcw1 (9 November 2022)

Good morning,
*Tesla recalls 40,000 U.S. vehicles* over potential loss of power steering assist...









						Tesla recalls more than 40,000 U.S. cars over possible loss of power steering
					

Tesla is recalling more than 40,000 2017-2021 Model S and Model X vehicles that could experience a loss of power steering assist.




					www.cnbc.com
				




Have a nice day, today.

Kind regards
rcw1


----------



## SirRumpole (9 November 2022)

rcw1 said:


> Good morning,
> *Tesla recalls 40,000 U.S. vehicles* over potential loss of power steering assist...
> 
> 
> ...




Online fixes are certainly more convenient than taking the car back to the dealer, but software can go horribly wrong and has the potential to cause more problems on a mass scale than mechanical issues.


----------



## sptrawler (9 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Buy some FMG shares, and if Twiggy is successful both you and the government will reach your goals 😜



I have some, but that doesnt guarantee anything, the road to ruin is littered with good intent.


----------



## sptrawler (9 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Online fixes are certainly more convenient than taking the car back to the dealer, but software can go horribly wrong and has the potential to cause more problems on a mass scale than mechanical issues.



Also an over the air patch, may well conceal an underlying problem.
 I'm all for the technology, but if it results in symptoms being sorted at the expense of hands on people fixing the root cause problem, well then it becomes a very dangerous way to reduce hands on staff.
The maintenance model of outsourcing repairs becomes a nightmare if responsibility for a fault has to be laid at someones feet.
The old story of it isnt our fault, we pay someone else to repair that and the repairer saying it is a design fault, then the manufacturer saying it is operator error.


----------



## Value Collector (9 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Online fixes are certainly more convenient than taking the car back to the dealer, but software can go horribly wrong and has the potential to cause more problems on a mass scale than mechanical issues.



I am not sure software is safer just because you had to take it back to the service centre to be plugged in.

In fact, if a problem with the software is detected an over the air fix might be safer than a dealership update just because of the speed it can be fixed.


----------



## Value Collector (9 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> The maintenance model of outsourcing repairs becomes a nightmare if responsibility for a fault has to be laid at someones feet.
> The old story of it isnt our fault, we pay someone else to repair that and the repairer saying it is a design fault, then the manufacturer saying it is operator error.



Isn’t outsourcing repairs standard in the vehicle industry, all the manufacturers except for Tesla outsource both sales and servicing to privately owned dealerships.

I could be wrong but isn’t Tesla the only one keeping their dealerships in house?


----------



## SirRumpole (9 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure software is safer just because you had to take it back to the service centre to be plugged in.
> 
> In fact, if a problem with the software is detected an over the air fix might be safer than a dealership update just because of the speed it can be fixed.




There is always the problem of hacking that applies to software but not usually to mechanical systems.

How big an issue is this ? Look at Optus or Medibank. Is Tesla immune ? Basically any software can be hacked and the source is a lot harder to track down than a fault in a mechanical system is.


----------



## Value Collector (9 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There is always the problem of hacking that applies to software but not usually to mechanical systems.
> 
> How big an issue is this ? Look at Optus or Medibank. Is Tesla immune ? Basically any software can be hacked and the source is a lot harder to track down than a fault in a mechanical system is.



Modern cars have both software and mechanical hardware. 

So it’s not a conversation about Teslas over the air updates vs Mechanical problems.

It’s about whether cars that have software (which is all of them), should be able to fix software issues over the air, or just rely on cars being brought into a service centre and physically plugged in.

Sure, an over the air update could have an issue, but so could a manual software update, but the over the update can be fixed quicker, also if there are 100,000 cars out there that need an update to fix a dangerous problem, it can be done over night with over the air updates, but would take months at a service centre.


----------



## sptrawler (9 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Isn’t outsourcing repairs standard in the vehicle industry, all the manufacturers except for Tesla outsource both sales and servicing to privately owned dealerships.
> 
> I could be wrong but isn’t Tesla the only one keeping their dealerships in house?



As far as I know, most manufacturers currently have their own dealerships and inhouse workshops, including apprentices, I dont know who carries out repairs for Tesla.
BYD is moving to the outsourcing model and as yet I havent heard how it is going.


----------



## mullokintyre (9 November 2022)

Vehicles that use Lidar to sense objects in their vicinity, can be messed up by lasers.
From Arxis  and Cosmos


> Autonomous Vehicles (AVs) increasingly use LiDAR-based object detection systems to perceive other vehicles and pedestrians on the road. While existing attacks on LiDAR-based autonomous driving architectures focus on lowering the confidence score of AV object detection models to induce obstacle misdetection, our research discovers how to leverage laser-based spoofing techniques to selectively remove the LiDAR point cloud data of genuine obstacles at the sensor level before being used as input to the AV perception. The ablation of this critical LiDAR information causes autonomous driving obstacle detectors to fail to identify and locate obstacles and, consequently, induces AVs to make dangerous automatic driving decisions. In this paper, we present a method invisible to the human eye that hides objects and deceives autonomous vehicles' obstacle detectors by exploiting inherent automatic transformation and filtering processes of LiDAR sensor data integrated with autonomous driving frameworks. We call such attacks Physical Removal Attacks (PRA), and we demonstrate their effectiveness against three popular AV obstacle detectors (Apollo, Autoware, PointPillars), and we achieve 45° attack capability. We evaluate the attack impact on three fusion models (Frustum-ConvNet, AVOD, and Integrated-Semantic Level Fusion) and the consequences on the driving decision using LGSVL, an industry-grade simulator. In our moving vehicle scenarios, we achieve a 92.7% success rate removing 90\% of a target obstacle's cloud points. Finally, we demonstrate the attack's success against two popular defenses against spoofing and object hiding attacks and discuss two enhanced defense strategies to mitigate our attack.



and 


> In a study uploaded to arXiv by a team of researchers in the US and Japan, researchers were able to trick the ‘victim vehicle’ (their words not ours) into not seeing a pedestrian or other object in its way.
> 
> Most self-driving cars use LIDAR to be able to ‘see’ around them by sending out a laser light and then recording the reflection from objects in the area. The time it takes for the light to reflect back gives the system information about how far away the object is.
> 
> This new ‘hack’ or spoof works because a perfectly timed laser shined onto a LIDAR system can create a blind spot large enough to hide an object like a pedestrian.



So how long will it be before some smartae$e loads a laser into his old bomb car and causes a new car to run up its rear and claim damages?
Entrepreneurial spirit lives in.
Mick


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## Value Collector (9 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> As far as I know, most manufacturers currently have their own dealerships and inhouse workshops, including apprentices, I dont know who carries out repairs for Tesla.
> BYD is moving to the outsourcing model and as yet I havent heard how it is going.





sptrawler said:


> As far as I know, most manufacturers currently have their own dealerships and inhouse workshops, including apprentices, I dont know who carries out repairs for Tesla.
> BYD is moving to the outsourcing model and as yet I havent heard how it is going.



No, most dealerships are not owned by the manufacturers they are franchised out to out side business people and other companies.

For example asx code - APE is Australia’s largest owner of car dealerships.

Where as Tesla owns and operates every dealership as company owned.

Currently there are laws in some states like Texas that out law manufacturers owning dealerships, so Tesla doesn’t have a dealership in Texas even though it has a factory there.


----------



## Value Collector (9 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Vehicles that use Lidar to sense objects in their vicinity, can be messed up by lasers.
> From Arxis  and Cosmos
> 
> and
> ...



Tesla has avoided LiDAR, they seem to think that cameras are the way to go.

In an interview he got asked why they are avoiding LiDAR and he basically said that camera based self driving systems are harder to train, but the end result will be better. 

He then used the example of human driving, saying that humans don’t use LiDAR, and instead drive with just eyes, which is much more like cameras.


----------



## sptrawler (9 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> No, most dealerships are not owned by the manufacturers they are franchised out to out side business people and other companies.
> 
> For example asx code - APE is Australia’s largest owner of car dealerships.
> 
> ...



Yes but the franchisees tend to sell specific makes and have an appropriate workshop facility attached, with inhouse mechanics.
Do Tesla dealerships have onsite workshops, or do they farm the mechanical work out to independent workshops? 
Not that it bothers me one way or another, it is just a point of interest, as I think most manufacturers/franchisees will eventually move to outsourcing mechanical/electrical repairs and direct sales will be online. As opposed to the current drive in to the dealership model.
Mercedes has been moving in that direction for some time.


----------



## Value Collector (9 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes but the franchisees tend to sell specific makes and have an appropriate workshop facility attached, with inhouse mechanics.
> Do Tesla dealerships have onsite workshops, or do they farm the mechanical work out to independent workshops?
> Not that it bothers me one way or another, it is just a point of interest, as I think most manufacturers/franchisees will eventually move to outsourcing mechanical/electrical repairs and direct sales will be online. As opposed to the current drive in to the dealership model.
> Mercedes has been moving in that direction for some time.



Yes, each Tesla dealership has a workshop and also mobile repairers, and are 100% owned by Tesla.

With the other manufacturers franchisees they can many different manufacturers, APE for example operates dealerships for 12 brands.

I don’t know about WA, over this side of the country in QLD and NSW sometimes it seems the dealerships have their signs attached by Velcro with the speed they can change from selling one brand one year to another one the next.

There is a dealership near me that sells 9 different brands under the same “dealer” (and dealer was purchased by APE a few years back, so although people might think they are dealing with the manufacturer, they are actually dealing with another company that sells multiple brands.


----------



## JohnDe (9 November 2022)

16 months of owning an EV and the savings keep improving.

No service required yet, rotated my own wheels & filled the windscreen washer bottle.


----------



## Smurf1976 (10 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure software is safer just because you had to take it back to the service centre to be plugged in.




Where the difference arises is that taking it back to the service centre costs the company serious $ all up and top management will be sure to know about it. That creates a rather strong incentive to have proper procedures in place to test it and get it right the first time so as to minimise the number of such recalls.

Versus being dead easy and essentially zero cost to fix errors remotely leads to a mentality that testing isn't required since problems can always be fixed and not even middle management will find out that it happened. All good until a problem slips through that brings serious consequences.

In principle from a technical perspective doing it remotely is brilliant yes. It enables it to be done quickly, cheaply and easily. Where it creates problems is with internal management and accountability.

There are other industries which have avoided the approach for that exact reason. When it's all done physically and involves serious time and effort, it's impossible to cover up internally that it's being done. It keeps the "bar" high in terms of technical testing, accountability and so on.


----------



## Value Collector (10 November 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Where the difference arises is that taking it back to the service centre costs the company serious $ all up and top management will be sure to know about it. That creates a rather strong incentive to have proper procedures in place to test it and get it right the first time so as to minimise the number of such recalls.
> 
> Versus being dead easy and essentially zero cost to fix errors remotely leads to a mentality that testing isn't required since problems can always be fixed and not even middle management will find out that it happened. All good until a problem slips through that brings serious consequences.
> 
> ...



Or, because it costs serious dollars they don’t bother fixing issues.


----------



## JohnDe (10 November 2022)

The beauty of over the air updates is that the vehicle or device does not become outdated and obsolete in a year or two.

My first new car purchase was a Ford Territory, a great family car that served us well. Except for the annoying issues that affected the Territory's ABS and Stability Control system, it took 3 visits to the dealership to rectify and in the end was a simple recalibration of the steering wheel sensors. However, the safety of my family was compromised for months.

Another annoying issue with that Territory was that a series 2 was released with improved engine and transmission software that improved fuel economy and power. I enquired about having the software update, just like I could do with my home and business computers. The answer was 'no'. there was some capability to flash upgrade certain functions, but each time risked 'bricking' the PCM.

That small improvement on a model only 2 years newer than mine reduced the value of my Territory significantly.

Today, vehicles with OTA updates will retain a higher resale value than a vehicle without OTA.

My 2021 Tesla M3 LR has had many OTA updates, and it currently has the improved software of the 2022 Tesla, and it will have the 2023 version coming out soon.









						Over-the-air updates: How does each EV automaker compare?
					

A detailed guide explaining over-the-air software and firmware updates as well as the status of each EV manufacturers current capabilities.




					electrek.co


----------



## JohnDe (10 November 2022)

> *Volvo's decision to phase out petrol power a 'sign of the times' ahead of EV boom*
> 
> When Volvo Australia announced it would stop selling petrol cars by the year 2026, John Johnson said it was the end of an era.
> 
> ...


----------



## qldfrog (11 November 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> Where the difference arises is that taking it back to the service centre costs the company serious $ all up and top management will be sure to know about it. That creates a rather strong incentive to have proper procedures in place to test it and get it right the first time so as to minimise the number of such recalls.
> 
> Versus being dead easy and essentially zero cost to fix errors remotely leads to a mentality that testing isn't required since problems can always be fixed and not even middle management will find out that it happened. All good until a problem slips through that brings serious consequences.
> 
> ...



And obviously more prone to hack/ fraudulent activity;
Look at the nice parallel with dvd readers and region locking in the past: initially,reader were built per region (eon ago).
Then you had a micro switch you had to physically push inside the box to unlock illegally, then a few button sequence to do it remotely..until the concept was de facto dropped
But still ,you can imagine that rewinding a speedometer or wiping a speeding ticket module will be easier by hacking on the ethernet than if needing to plug physically onto the on board computer, or worse having to diassemble a chip or connecting a drill on a cable as was done in shoddy car salesyards...
Leaving remote access to key safety parameters is just a disaster waiting to happen..and what a pot of honey.
Imagine the millions in reward for a hacker to break into Tesla f.e. and be able to disable the brakes and as well lock the remote updates to his own dark web versions 🥴
Worth employing a few hundred Ukrainian hackers..sorry Russian of course, 
Even worthwhile for a North Korean state department imho.


----------



## Value Collector (11 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> And obviously more prone to hack/ fraudulent activity;
> Look at the nice parallel with dvd readers and region locking in the past: initially,reader were built per region (eon ago).
> Then you had a micro switch you had to physically push inside the box to unlock illegally, then a few button sequence to do it remotely..until the concept was de facto dropped
> But still ,you can imagine that rewinding a speedometer or wiping a speeding ticket module will be easier by hacking on the ethernet than if needing to plug physically onto the on board computer, or worse having to diassemble a chip or connecting a drill on a cable as was done in shoddy car salesyards...
> ...



I am not sure how you think a hacker could use software to “disconnect” mechanical parts of the car such as brakes.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure how you think a hacker could use software to “disconnect” mechanical parts of the car such as brakes.



I can think of a few. 
Most modern cars have interconnected anti skid systems and traction control systems  using electrical sensors that quickly apply the brakes many times a second to keep the wheels turning in the desired speed.
The system that controls regen braking in EV's is one. They are electrically controlled, so may well be susceptible to hacking.
Those vehicles that have adaptive cruise control also apply the brakes automatically if a car in front slows down.
Any of them could be manipulated depending on the DSP used to control them all.
There may be others I have not thought of.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (11 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I can think of a few.
> Most modern cars have interconnected anti skid systems and traction control systems  using electrical sensors that quickly apply the brakes many times a second to keep the wheels turning in the desired speed.
> The system that controls regen braking in EV's is one. They are electrically controlled, so may well be susceptible to hacking.
> Those vehicles that have adaptive cruise control also apply the brakes automatically if a car in front slows down.
> ...



Would any of those systems be able to stop me pressing my foot on the brake?

And, is it possible to actually control or make changes to any of those systems outside of the time when an update is downloaded and installed? I mean they aren’t remote control cars that are constantly receiving commands externally, they are still essentially closed systems.


----------



## JohnDe (11 November 2022)

'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'

Can someone give me the figures of how many modern vehicles have been ’hacked’. How many have had the mechanical brake system disabled by a software hack. The percentage of mobile phones hacked remotely and without input from the user.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Would any of those systems be able to stop me pressing my foot on the brake?



You can put your foot on the brake, but it may not do anything.
 In the case of the anti skid, the electronics override it to stop it skidding.
I have to turn off my anti skid systems going up a wet farm road because it kept overiding watever I input to the accelerator or brakes demonstrated that to me some time ago.


Value Collector said:


> And, is it possible to actually control or make changes to any of those systems outside of the time when an update is downloaded and installed? I mean they aren’t remote control cars that are constantly receiving commands externally, they are still essentially closed systems.



You have contradicted yourself.
A closed system cannot have an ability to get external inputs, which is essentially what the the over the air  updates are.
it would also have to be immune to any other forms of radiation, such as LIDAR, nuetrons,  and em waves.
The fears that a massive corona ejection like the Carrington event  would create havoc with any electrical devices, communications systems  etc apply just as equally to modern day cars.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (11 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> You can put your foot on the brake, but it may not do anything.
> In the case of the anti skid, the electronics override it to stop it skidding.
> I have to turn off my anti skid systems going up a wet farm road because it kept overiding watever I input to the accelerator or brakes demonstrated that to me some time ago.
> 
> ...



When I say closed system I mean once the update is done, I don’t think there is any pathway for a hacker to break into the cars software and start messing with it.

There are a few minor things you can control trough the app eg air conditioning, winding windows down, unlocking doors but you can access control of the steering wheels or brakes etc.

Wouldn’t a hacker wanting to take advantage of Teslas over the updates to control the car have to some how hack Tesla and rewrite software before they send it out to the cars?

I mean just because Tesla can send an update to my car doesn’t mean anyone out there can do it.


----------



## mullokintyre (11 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> When I say closed system I mean once the update is done, I don’t think there is any pathway for a hacker to break into the cars software and start messing with it.



Really? For years thats exactly what hackers did with computer updates.
You can mess with the virtual adress of the software, play with the URL, lots things before it even gets out to the customers.


Value Collector said:


> There are a few minor things you can control trough the app eg air conditioning, winding windows down, unlocking doors but you can access control of the steering wheels or brakes etc.
> 
> Wouldn’t a hacker wanting to take advantage of Teslas over the updates to control the car have to some how hack Tesla and rewrite software before they send it out to the cars?
> 
> I mean just because Tesla can send an update to my car doesn’t mean anyone out there can do it.



Problem is, its been happening for years. You think this is a new phenomenon?
No one knows what sot of vulnerabilities there are until some hacker finds them


Value Collector said:


> When I say closed system I mean once the update is done, I don’t think there is any pathway for a hacker to break into the cars software and start messing with it.



As to it being a closed system once the update, that's demonstrable wrong because you don't know what  entry points have been written into the system, inadvertently or otherwise.
You have no idea what pathways there are, not even tesla.
Not until some hacker does something different.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (11 November 2022)

Riding an electric motor bike across Australia.








						How do you ride an electric motorcycle across Australia? Slowly, and you pray for a tailwind
					

Ed Darmanin is on a quest to become the first person to travel from Perth to Sydney on an electric motorcycle, but covering vast distances between charging points hasn't always been easy riding.




					www.abc.net.au


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## JohnDe (11 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Really? For years thats exactly what hackers did with computer updates.
> You can mess with the virtual adress of the software, play with the URL, lots things before it even gets out to the customers.
> 
> Problem is, its been happening for years. You think this is a new phenomenon?
> ...




First of all, do you have any examples of an OTA update being hacked and causing life threatening issues?

I would be more worried about vehicles that do not have OTA capabilities and required physical connection to rectify issues. 

On Friday, Chrysler announced that it's issuing a formal recall for 1.4 million vehicles that may be affected by a hackable software vulnerability in Chrysler's Uconnect dashboard computers. The vulnerability was first demonstrated to WIRED by security researchers Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek earlier this month when they wirelessly hacked a Jeep I was driving...​​Chrysler had already issued a patch in a software update for its vehicles last week, but announced it with a vague press release on its website only. A recall, by contrast, means all affected customers will be notified about the security vulnerability and urged to patch their software. "The recall aligns with an ongoing software distribution that insulates connected vehicles from remote manipulation...​​In its press statement about the recall, Chrysler offered the following list of vehicles that may be affected:​
2013-2015 MY Dodge Viper specialty vehicles
2013-2015 Ram 1500, 2500 and 3500 pickups
2013-2015 Ram 3500, 4500, 5500 Chassis Cabs
2014-2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee and Cherokee SUVs
2014-2015 Dodge Durango SUVs
2015 MY Chrysler 200, Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger sedans
2015 Dodge Challenger sports coupes
"The software manipulation addressed by this recall required unique and extensive technical knowledge, prolonged physical access to a subject vehicle and extended periods of time to write code,"​​Careful Chrysler owners don't need to depend on that network protection or wait for a USB drive to be mailed to them to patch their Uconnect computers. They can download the patch to a computer right now, put it on a USB drive, and install it on the dashboard. Start here to get that software fix.​​








						After Jeep Hack, Chrysler Recalls 1.4M Vehicles for Bug Fix
					

Welcome to the age of hackable automobiles, when two security researchers can cause a 1.4 million product recall.




					www.wired.com


----------



## mullokintyre (11 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> First of all, do you have any examples of an OTA update being hacked and causing life threatening issues?
> 
> I would be more worried about vehicles that do not have OTA capabilities and required physical connection to rectify issues.
> 
> ...



Straw man as usual.
We were talking about potential  hacking.
As to the problems with Chrysler, another straw man argument.
All it does is highlight that software updates are never perfect whether they come from OTA or from bein installed via a USB cable.
Mick


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## JohnDe (11 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Straw man as usual.
> We were talking about potential  hacking.
> As to the problems with Chrysler, another straw man argument.
> All it does is highlight that software updates are never perfect whether they come from OTA or from bein installed via a USB cable.
> Mick




I work in the industry. I am subscribed to multiple bodies that service and educate the industry. I pay to update my staff and myself for present and upcoming technologies involve with the industry.

What do you do?


----------



## mullokintyre (11 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I work in the industry. I am subscribed to multiple bodies that service and educate the industry. I pay to update my staff and myself for present and upcoming technologies involve with the industry.
> 
> What do you do?



I am a retired IT engineer.
Mick


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## JohnDe (11 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I am a retired IT engineer.
> Mick




Nice to be retired.


----------



## Value Collector (11 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Really? For years thats exactly what hackers did with computer updates.
> You can mess with the virtual adress of the software, play with the URL, lots things before it even gets out to the customers.
> 
> Problem is, its been happening for years. You think this is a new phenomenon?
> ...



Well, we will just have to wait and see I guess.

At the end of the day I think I am most at risk from the mistakes of other drivers, not a software issue.

If moving towards self driving and software updates reduces my risk in 100 ways but opens me up to risk in 10 ways, the risk vs reward is still in our favour.


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## basilio (12 November 2022)

India wants to move decisively to electric transport.  One of the overwhelming issues for India is air pollution that is off the page.

Very useful story on how they are making the figures stack up.  Also legitimate concern about  the capacity to charge the multimillions of electric  rickshaws, scooters and small cars they are planning.

India wants 30pc of private cars to be electric by 2030. Here's how they plan to do it​By South Asia correspondent Avani Dias and Som Patidar in New Delhi
Posted 5h ago5 hours ago, updated 5h ago5 hours ago


 New Delhi is considered one of the most air polluted cities in the world.(Reuters: Anushree Fadnavis)









						Indians are ditching fuel cars in what is being described as an EV revolution. Here's how they're doing it
					

While many parts of the world struggle to get behind the wheel of an electric vehicle because of cost, India makes it a mission to make them affordable to many of its 1.3 billion people.




					www.abc.net.au


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## JohnDe (12 November 2022)

basilio said:


> India wants to move decisively to electric transport.  One of the overwhelming issues for India is air pollution that is off the page.
> 
> Very useful story on how they are making the figures stack up.  Also legitimate concern about  the capacity to charge the multimillions of electric  rickshaws, scooters and small cars they are planning.
> 
> ...




Imagine the amount of battery materials required in the very near future.


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## basilio (12 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Imagine the amount of battery materials required in the very near future.




Which indeed is one of the questions raised in the story.


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## qldfrog (13 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I am not sure how you think a hacker could use software to “disconnect” mechanical parts of the car such as brakes.



.... If software can brake aka use the brakes,it can be made to NOT use the brakes.....
Your brakes mecanical component system is ok, just not useable /used...
Been the case since ABS but ABS was not updated via the air in the last 20y.


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## qldfrog (13 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> .... If software can brake aka use the brakes,it can be made to NOT use the brakes.....
> Your brakes mecanical component system is ok, just not useable /used...
> Been the case since ABS but ABS was not updated via the air in the last 20y.



And now back to EVs as OTA updates issues are shared with ICE too...


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## JohnDe (14 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> .... If software can brake aka use the brakes,it can be made to NOT use the brakes.....
> Your brakes mecanical component system is ok, just not useable /used...
> Been the case since ABS but ABS was not updated via the air in the last 20y.




Show me the technical circuitry for your hypothesis


----------



## JohnDe (14 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> And now back to EVs as OTA updates issues are shared with ICE too...




A logged example from 2004: Ford Territory Ghia, 3 months old, under hard/emergency braking the brake efficiency was reduced by approximately 30%. Vehicle inspection by technician could find no fault or issue. Problem occurred a month later, vehicle was inspected again Ana again no fault found. Third time, owner refused to take vehicle from dealership until fault was found. Eventually the fault was found - one of the steering wheel sensors was not calibrated correctly from the factory.


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## sptrawler (14 November 2022)

This article shows how difficult it is to compete with China, when it comes to manufacturing.








						Tesla's Elon Musk rules out China exports to the US
					

Elon Musk has denied a report claiming plans to export Tesla cars from China to the US, due to lower manufacturing costs that reportedly negate hefty tariffs on Chinese imports to the US.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:

_Reuters_ says the gap between Tesla prices in the US and China is "widening" – attributed to rising US prices and new discounts in China – suggesting Chinese exports to the US are now feasible, despite the hefty tariff.

Tesla would not be the first US car maker to import Chinese-made cars to the US since the new tariff was introduced, _Reuters_ notes; General Motors-owned brand Buick imports the Chinese-built Envision large SUV to North America.

Ford scrapped plans to introduce the Focus Active hatchback to the US market in 2019 – built in a factory in China – after the 25 per cent tariff was introduced by the previous US government administration, and the model could no longer be priced competitively.


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## rcw1 (15 November 2022)

Good morning
Some good news in the electric vehicle changing space, published through News Corp media today (15/11/22)
Happy Tuesday.

Kind regards
rcw1

More than 800,000 electric vehicles will hit Queensland roads over the next decade, meaning the state will need 1600 additional charging stations.

*Andrew Kidd Fraser*

An explosion in electric vehicles running on Queensland roads will require at least 1600 public charging stations to be built before the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games begin.  Experts expect about 800,000 electric vehicles to be on the road in the next decade – a massive increase from the 10,000 currently registered in Queensland – requiring a charging location every 70km along arterial roads and off-grid facilities in remote regions.

While upwards of 80 per cent of charging facilities are expected to be in people’s homes or workplaces, public charging stations will be needed to allow motorists to undertake longer trips.  Dr Kai Li Lim, the inaugural St Baker Fellow in Electromobility at University of Queensland’s Dow Centre for Sustainable Engineering Innovation, said a passenger-based electric vehicle mainly used for small trips was unlikely to use public charging facilities.

“It is only when an electric vehicle is travelling longer distances or away from their home region would they be more likely to use public chargers,” he said.

“With the assumption that traffic remains constant along arterial routes, we are looking at a total of about 1600 public dual-outlet DC chargers across the state across 84 additional sites.”  He said the Electric Vehicle Council’s latest recommendation involved having one charging location every 70km along arterial roads.  “However, the number of charging stations at each location would be largely dependent on local transport demands and local grid availability,” he said.  “For more remote regions, we would possibly need to set up a microgrid or off-grid facility with renewables.”

The Queensland government started phase three of the Queensland Electric Superhighway this year, with a goal of adding 24 charging stations in regional areas such as Longreach, Barcaldine and Stanthorpe.

Phases 1 and 2 involved building 31 charging stations from Coolangatta to Port Douglas, and Brisbane to Toowoomba.

Trevor St Baker, the chair of Evie Networks, Australia’s largest provider of charging stations, said that the cost of electric vehicles was coming down rapidly, with basic cars and delivery vans likely to be rolled out for under $40,000 by the end of the year.

He said that the average driver of an internal combustion engine vehicle spent about $2160 to travel 15,000km, while the driver of an electric car would spend only $600 to travel the same distance.

But he also said that most debate in Australia on electric cars focused on the environmental aspects with reduced carbon emissions.

“But this has very little to do with climate change or saving the planet. That’s a very good by-product, but the main driver of a bigger upkeep of electric cars is cost,” he said.  “After the initial purchase, there is about an 80 per cent reduction in transport costs for families and businesses.  “Cars can also do around 450,000km for 90 per cent chargeability, so they’re lasting a lot longer. They can still have a second life as a city car after that.”

PwC Australia’s integrated infrastructure partner Katie Nguyen said the key to adoption of electric vehicles was through addressing affordability and accessibility

“Right now, electric vehicle uptake in Australia is low in terms of market share for total vehicle car sales, and we are lagging behind many other developed countries,” she said.

“While there’s no quick fix to get more people driving electric vehicles, a combination of ideas such as introducing fuel efficiency standards, financial incentives and government procurement of electric vehicles would all make a big difference to supporting a growing electric vehicle market.

“... there are a range of financial incentives available to improve the affordability and availability of electric vehicles, such as tax incentives to drive down costs, and grants to encourage local manufacturing and local assembly of electric vehicles and batteries.

“Government procurement of electric vehicles would increase imports and put more on the road, which would have the flow-on impact of growing the second-hand market as government-cars reach their renewal date. A better established second-hand market would create a different market and pricing offering, improving market affordability more broadly.”

RACQ chief David Carter said an important element of government support involved having an accelerated depreciation schedule for electric vehicles.

“The Tax Office would still get its revenue, but at a different time,” he said.  “This would also help create a second-hand market for electric vehicles, so that in around 10 years’ time, you had a substantial market of used electric vehicles which were three or four years old.

Future Brisbane, in partnership with corporate and community leaders, is exploring the mobility and connectivity legacy priorities ahead of the Brisbane 2032 Games.


Edit: not sure whether the attachment; attached properly


----------



## SirRumpole (15 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The beauty of over the air updates is that the vehicle or device does not become outdated and obsolete in a year or two.
> 
> My first new car purchase was a Ford Territory, a great family car that served us well. Except for the annoying issues that affected the Territory's ABS and Stability Control system, it took 3 visits to the dealership to rectify and in the end was a simple recalibration of the steering wheel sensors. However, the safety of my family was compromised for months.
> 
> ...




Over the air updates are convenient, but mechanical parts wear out as well, so dealers aren't going to be redundant


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## qldfrog (15 November 2022)

rcw1 said:


> Good morning
> Some good news in the electric vehicle changing space, published through News Corp media today (15/11/22)
> Happy Tuesday.
> 
> ...



How to wrap BS with pseudo math and science..part of the narrative
"Cars can also do around 450,000km for 90 per cent chargeability, "
All good for taxis indeed but
With average km per year for cars roughly 20000 kms, this could mean your ev will last 20y😂
The EV shell yes it might, but  you will have gone thru at least 2 packs of batteries.. probably 3.... In that time


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## rcw1 (15 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> How to wrap BS with pseudo math and science..part of the narrative
> "Cars can also do around 450,000km for 90 per cent chargeability, "
> All good for taxis indeed but
> With average km per year for cars roughly 20000 kms, this could mean your ev will last 20y😂
> The EV shell yes it might, but  you will have gone thru at least 2 packs of batteries.. probably 3.... In that time



Hello qldfrog
Twice in one day now.... 
Company has put in an order for 2 x Tesla 3's thingies...  They arrive in May 2023 apparently.  
Truth be told this piece of that article is what took rcw1's fancy...:

_The Queensland government started phase three of the Queensland Electric Superhighway this year, with a goal of adding 24 charging stations in *regional areas such as Longreach, Barcaldine and Stanthorpe.*
Phases 1 and 2 involved building 31 charging stations from Coolangatta to Port Douglas, and Brisbane to Toowoomba._

Have a very nice day, today.

Kind regards
rcw1


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## JohnDe (15 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Over the air updates are convenient, but mechanical parts wear out as well, so dealers aren't going to be redundant




I believe that you are the first, on here, to mention 'redundant dealers'.

Tesla, which I would guess is the king of OTA updates, have 'service' networks wherever they sell a significant number of their models. Their first preference is to assess the fault OTA, next is to drive their service vehicle to a location that the owner is at or suggests, next is to get the car into the 'service centre'.

The world is changing, it is becoming more environmentally friendly, heading back to the days when a manufacturer would build things to last and be able to repair and maintain for the long term. The 'throw-away' society that we became during the 70's to now is dissolving.

A vehicle that can update its software OTA will be able to stay in service a lot longer than one that can't, because it becomes cost effective.


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## JohnDe (15 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> How to wrap BS with pseudo math and science..part of the narrative
> "Cars can also do around 450,000km for 90 per cent chargeability, "
> All good for taxis indeed but
> With average km per year for cars roughly 20000 kms, this could mean your ev will last 20y😂
> The EV shell yes it might, but  you will have gone thru at least 2 packs of batteries.. probably 3.... In that time




Oh boy . You keep insisting on commenting on something that, at this stage, you know very little about.

*How long do Tesla batteries REALLY last? Model S tested after 250,000 kilometres*​​One of the biggest mental hurdles to overcome when buying an electric car is the shelf-life of the battery. The battery - and the range they deliver - make up one of the most important buying decisions, and you don't want to be left wondering what will happen if that range starts to plummet.​​After all, a promised driving range counts for naught if your EV can only manage it for the first two years.​​The brands do their best to reduce those fears, of course. Tesla, for example, guarantees its batteries for eight years or 240,000kms, whichever comes first, on the Model S and Model X, with the brand promising 70 per cent battery capacity retention over that period.​​And if a recent test by Tesla Model S 70D owner, Branden Flasch, is anything to go by, that's exactly what you'll get. If not better.​​Branden's vehicle had reportedly travelled 234,964kms when he put it to the test - or just under the 240,000km ceiling - and the results of his test were very impressive.​​The Model S in question was purchased in 2015, and its owner charged it to 99 per cent before the test, and then driving it until the batteries are completely depleted, measuring its kWh usage to check the battery's depletion. The reported results have the Model S using 58.5kWh, roughly 83 per cent of their original 70kWh capacity.​​Now, it's worth pointing out that this is one well-driven Tesla.* The average Australian drives around 13,000km per year. *This Model S travelled more than three times that distance, at 46,800km per year over five years.​


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## JohnDe (15 November 2022)

*Microsoft and Tesla Define Software-Defined Batteries*​​....The new system proposed allows heterogeneous batteries with different chemistries to be integrated in a mobile system. SDB consists of hardware and software components. The hardware enables fine-grained control of the amount of power passing in and out of each battery using smart switching circuitry. The charging and discharging hardware is designed to be low-cost, and hence the algorithmic complexity of computing how much power to draw from each battery, and how to recharge each battery, is placed in the SDB software that resides in the OS.​​Deciding how much power to draw from each battery, and how to charge each battery is non-trivial. It depends on the efficiency of each battery under different workloads, the age of each battery, and also the userâ€™s workload and usage profile. For example, if a high power workload is anticipated in the future, then it could be worthwhile conserving charge on the battery that is more capable of handling such a workload in an efficient manner.​​The SDB software component that resides in the OS implements a set of policies and APIs. The SDB software uses simple APIs to communicate with the SDB hardware. The algorithms implemented by this software use various metrics for increasing the single charge-discharge duration of the device, and the longevity of the batteries, and thereby decide the ratios in which to discharge each battery, and the ratios in which to charge them.​​The SDB design is cross-layer and involves new chemistries, additional hardware, and new OS components. Although an alternative SDB implementation can be hardcoded in firmware, the authors' claim that the cross layer approach has two main benefits.​​First, it opens up new battery parameters, previously unavailable to OS designers, for resource optimization. In existing mobile devices, the battery is usually treated as a black box, and is simply assumed as a reservoir of charge. OS techniques yield substantial gains in battery usage.​​Second, this design allows a system designer to select any combination of batteries for an optimal design, including new chemistries as they are invented, and developed. All of these can be enabled through a software update.....​


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## SirRumpole (15 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> The 'throw-away' society that we became during the 70's to now is dissolving.




I would like to believe that but it doesn't fit into the corporate psychology of continual turnover being required to ensure continuing profits.

World population is going to stabilise, we can't continue to extract diminishing resources  so without turnover where are company profits coming from ?


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## Value Collector (15 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> World population is going to stabilise, we can't continue to extract diminishing resources  so without turnover where are company profits coming from ?




You don’t need to have a throw away society to generate profits, and you don’t need a growing population either.

Even if the population stopped growing today, the world economy would still have plenty of growth left just because of rising living standards. 

But the population has about another 50% growth in it before it’s stabilises, then we have to bring that population up to our level of lifestyle.


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## JohnDe (15 November 2022)

First VW, now Porsche. 

Porsche misleading fuel economy emissions $80M class action settlement
Top Class Actions  |  October 26, 2022

Porsche to pay $80 mln to resolve fuel economy claims on U.S. vehicles
Porsche AG unit have agreed to a class-action settlement worth at least $80 million to resolve claims it skewed emissions and fuel economy data

It’s another emissions issue for Volkswagen and Porsche but the settlement is much smaller this time.
This settlement came about after owners sued Porsche for manipulating emissions and fuel economy test vehicles, to achieve better official figures. According to the settlement documents, owners were seeing 1-2 fewer miles per gallon than what Porsche was claiming and that affects vehicles dating as far back as 2005.

Porsche $80M Settlement: Owners Allege Fake Emissions and Economy Numbers


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## mullokintyre (15 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> You don’t need to have a throw away society to generate profits, and you don’t need a growing population either.
> 
> 
> But the population has about another 50% growth in it before it’s stabilises, then we have to bring that population up to our level of lifestyle.



Don't know how you get to a 50% growth.
According to Nature


> The UN says world population will plateau at 10.9 billion by the end of the century. The other groups forecast earlier and smaller peaks, with global population reaching 9.7 billion by 2070 and then declining.
> 
> The difference poses a conundrum for governments, companies and others trying to plan for everything from investment in infrastructure and future tax income, to setting goals for international development and greenhouse-gas reductions.



According to  World population clock
Sometime  this week, the earth will likely have its 8 billionth person born.
a 50% increase would take it to 12billion.
Even the most optimistic  10.9 billion forecast is well short of that.
The other forecasts limit it to 9.7 billion which is a tad less than a 20% increase.
Mick


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## qldfrog (15 November 2022)

rcw1 said:


> Hello qldfrog
> Twice in one day now....
> Company has put in an order for 2 x Tesla 3's thingies...  They arrive in May 2023 apparently.
> Truth be told this piece of that article is what took rcw1's fancy...:
> ...



Bonjour Mr Rcw1
The BS was the article, i was not shooting the messenger😊


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## JohnDe (15 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> I would like to believe that but it doesn't fit into the corporate psychology of continual turnover being required to ensure continuing profits.
> 
> World population is going to stabilise, we can't continue to extract diminishing resources  so without turnover where are company profits coming from ?




It is coming. Many more consumers are environmentally aware, they cringe when they have to throw a product out that appears to need only a minor fix or software update.

*Promoting product longevity*​How can the EU product safety and compliance framework help promote product durability and tackle planned obsolescence, foster the production of more sustainable products, and achieve more transparent supply chains for consumers?​​Perhaps the best way to understand issues of product longevity is to see how they have played out, or might potentially be altered, for actual products. We delved deeper into two areas: (1)the automotive sector, and (2) smartphones and tablets.​Even for a single product or sector, the environmental effects of an increase in longevity are complex. A study by Kagawa et al. (2008) showed plausibly that increasing the lifetime of passenger vehicles by a year in Japan from 1990 through 2000 would have generated substantial environmental benefits....​
*The value of longevity: Product quality and sustainable consumption*

Each year millions of consumer goods, from furniture and household appliances to clothing and footwear, are discarded. Many are thrown away prematurely, obsolete: functional but outmoded and unloved, technologically outdated but not upgradable, faulty but irreparable. Often they have been designed for life-spans far shorter than those technically possible.

As affluence has increased and durables are increasingly regarded as disposable there is clear evidence to suggest that throughput of goods in affluent, industrialised societies is unsustainable. Recently, however, signs of change have emerged, prompted by interest in resource efficiency and demands for waste reduction, and there is growing interest in increasing product lifetimes.


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## Value Collector (15 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Don't know how you get to a 50% growth.
> According to Nature





Just using round numbers in my head, eg 7.5 billion to 11 Billion is roughly 50%. (46%)

I didn’t realise we were so close to 8 billion now, (I hadn’t checked the population for a while I guess). But if you want to use 8 Billion it’s 37%.

Either way my point remains valid eg the population is going to keep growing for a long time, and then even a stagnant population will still see economic growth through raising living standards.

My other point is also that a stagnant population will see a lot of economic activity


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## mullokintyre (15 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Just using round numbers in my head, eg 7.5 billion to 11 Billion is roughly 50%. (46%)
> 
> I didn’t realise we were so close to 8 billion now, (I hadn’t checked the population for a while I guess). But if you want to use 8 Billion it’s 37%.
> 
> ...



On the contrary.
Economic activity is not a constant throughout a persons lifecycle,
According to this paper in Science direct


> A typical characteristic of the life cycle in modern societies are phases of economic dependency at the beginning and end of life, in which consumption exceeds the income generated through one’s own labour input. In childhood and retirement at least part of consumption has to be covered through the reallocation of resources in form of transfers and asset accumulation. A shift in the age structure of the population - as a consequence of the ageing process - requires an adjustment of the age reallocation system. The current system will be under pressure as an increasing share of elderly people has to be sustained by an ageing and shrinking population in working age. The shift in the age structure of the population will be remarkable: according to EUROSTAT projections the population of the European Union aged 20–64 decreases from 308 m in 2013 to 289 m in 2030, while the population aged 65+ increases from 92 m in 2013 to 124 m in 2030.



It has been commented in some other posts how some countries (Russia, China, Japan, Spain, Italy among others)  have an ageing population that will have significant  effects on many cultures and societies. There will be fewer  young people to support more older people.
As people get older, they tend to spend less, I see it among my  peer group as people start to worry about  how long their super will last,  or whether their govt pension will see them thru.
 The spending on big ticket items like houses cars, bikes, boats, Helicopters and planes, TV's  etc will wane.
Eating out becomes a chore as they are less willing to travel out at night. They are more likely to watch sport on TV than go to the trouble of attending the event. They will require a lot more of government support in the health system.
Mick


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## Value Collector (15 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> On the contrary.
> Economic activity is not a constant throughout a persons lifecycle,
> According to this paper in Science direct
> 
> ...




Older people spend less on stuff as they enter their elder years, but their spending on services can rise dramatically as they start needing more medical and in home care.

Eg they might not replace their car, but they might replace their hip and get a cleaner etc, they might not eat out but the might get meals delivered regularly.

Also, aging population is probably only going to be a problem in countries that don’t allow immigration, large sections of the world have a young growing population, immigration from these countries can support the more mature economies.

And as I said, even as western nations population stagnate, we are going to see huge economic growth in India, Africa these populations have 3 massive drivers.

1, The birth rate is still positive and very high in Africa.

2, the exisiting population is young, and people are going to live longer.

3, Their standard of living will rise off a very low base.

So in Africa you will see a growing population and growing consumption per person.

——————

*Also, developed economies are going to have robots. These robots are going to alleviate all sorts of problems people have predicted an aging population will cause.*


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## SirRumpole (15 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> 1, The birth rate is still positive and very high in Africa.




So is the mortality rate.


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## Value Collector (15 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> So is the mortality rate.



That is changing rapidly

A lot has changed since 1962


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## orr (15 November 2022)

For those with an interest;








						Silicon carbide and the age of electrification — The Technology Letter
					

Chips made of a special material called silicon carbide are transforming the automotive market, and remaking the businesses of companies such as Wolfspeed (WOLF) and ON Semiconductor (ON). The implications may stretch far beyond electric vehicles to all parts of the built environment.




					www.thetechnologyletter.com


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## mullokintyre (17 November 2022)

Just on the recent "debate" about the merits of software updates.
From The Driven


> Tesla has recalled more than 1,000 of its top range Model S and Model X electric vehicles after acknowledging a steering fault that emerged after a recent software upgrade.
> The recall – which affects all 1,012 Model S and Model X cars delivered in Australia since 2017 – was issued on Tuesday by the Department of Transport.
> “Due to a recently changed software calibration issue, the Electronic Power Assist Steering system (EPAS) may not operate as intended,” the notice says.
> “This may result in a reduced or loss of power steering assist and could require greater steering effort from the driver particularly at low speeds. Upon experiencing reduced or lost power steering assist, an audio alert will trigger, and a visual alert will appear on the instrument cluster.”
> ...



If and when my EV ever arrives, I will be turning off automatic updates  until a few other suckers have tested it.

Mick


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## JohnDe (17 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Just on the recent "debate" about the merits of software updates.
> From The Driven
> 
> If and when my EV ever arrives, I will be turning off automatic updates  until a few other suckers have tested it.
> ...




The Automatic update function is always off, the user must turn it on.


----------



## SirRumpole (18 November 2022)

This article shows that Australia is still well below the priority list for EV's world wide.









						Audi Q4 E-Tron electric SUV ‘can’t come soon enough’ to Australia, says local boss
					

Audi Australia's newly-appointed boss says the brand's small electric SUV likely won't make its way into local dealerships until 2024.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## mullokintyre (18 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> This article shows that Australia is still well below the priority list for EV's world wide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At $181,000 plus on road costs, it is going to be a limited market no matter how many become available.
Mick


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## SirRumpole (18 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> At $181,000 plus on road costs, it is going to be a limited market no matter how many become available.
> Mick



_“If you look at the market, it's probably around the *$60-$80,000 *mark which is where the competition is, where the volume is,” said Mr Mannering, adding he hoped to have the Q4 E-Tron selling within that bracket.
“I’m not exactly sure [but] that would be my wish,” he told Drive. “That’s our job with the factory, to negotiate the most competitive price.”_


----------



## mullokintyre (18 November 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> _“If you look at the market, it's probably around the *$60-$80,000 *mark which is where the competition is, where the volume is,” said Mr Mannering, adding he hoped to have the Q4 E-Tron selling within that bracket.
> “I’m not exactly sure [but] that would be my wish,” he told Drive. “That’s our job with the factory, to negotiate the most competitive price.”_



To paraphrase another great genius, "tell him he's dreamin'.
I guess if they cut the battery pack by three quarters, made it only single drive, and took out three cup holders it might get down to that price.
Mick


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## mullokintyre (18 November 2022)

Its taken a bit of time, but it would appear that   Volkswagen ID4 will finally be coming to Australia.
From  The Evil Murdoch Empire


> Volkswagen Australia has been desperately trying to get its ID range of EVs – already very successful and widely loved overseas, the ID.4 won World Car of the Year in 2021 – down under for some time, but unfortunately head office in Germany kept laughing at them.
> 
> It seems that the company’s executives can read and have the internet and thus noticed that, rather than encouraging and incentivising Australians to shift to EVs, the Morrison Government was doing the opposite, or at least that‘s how VW saw the situation.
> 
> ...



The ID4 is second biggest selling EV behind the Tesla Y in Europe,  and Volkswagen group overall has 20% share of the plug in Ev market in Europe. (from Inside EV ).
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (20 November 2022)

_“Software is eating the world”. So proclaimed Marc Andreessen, a venture capitalist, in 2011. Since then, the adage has been repeated often enough to become commonplace. Simon Wright, The Economist’s industry editor, and I saw this digestive process in action when we visited the Electronic Software Hub recently opened by Mercedes-Benz, a luxury carmaker. Imagine bolting a tech-company campus onto a car factory and you get a rough idea of what the eight-storey complex in southern Germany feels like._​​_In the story I wrote with Simon this week, we explore how the auto industry, once the archetypal hardware business, has become ever more about software. Industry insiders now talk of “software-defined vehicles”, constantly updated “over the air” with new applications and features that continue to improve the car even after it’s left the factory floor. Less toaster, more smartphone._​​_Software is not only changing cars, but also the companies that make them. The hardware age was characterised by hierarchical, process-driven organisations intensely focused on hitting the all-important “start of production” date, with new cars appearing in four-year cycles. The software age will be defined by decentralised and empowered teams of developers that deliver updates in rhythms counted not in years, but days or even hours._​​_While this may be second nature for Tesla, Nio and other digitally native carmakers, incumbents must reinvent themselves. If they fail, they may well go the way of Nokia, which a few years back missed the shift to smartphones and quickly went from the king of mobile phones to a relic. (Although Nokia still exists, it no longer makes phones; another phonemaker uses its brand.)_​



> *The race to reinvent the car industry*
> 
> Can carmakers catch up with Tesla and pull off the shift to software?
> 
> ...


----------



## sptrawler (22 November 2022)

China's LDV first to market with a readily available E.V ute, that is if you can afford it.
It does tend to show the limitations of heavy electric vehicles, it is nearly a ton heavier than the ICE T60.









						2023 LDV eT60 price and specs: Australia's first electric ute costs from $92,990
					

Australia's first electric ute – the LDV eT60 from China – has gone on sale with a high price and limited driving range. But there is already a waiting list to buy one.




					www.drive.com.au
				




*2023 LDV eT60 price and specifications*
Australia's first electric ute comes from China
Electric driving range of 330km halved when towing or carrying a load, 2WD only
Priced from $92,990 drive-away, more than double the cost of the top diesel version
For now the electric LDV eT60 is offered in one model grade. It comes with a generous *88.55kWh battery pack* which, in a passenger car, would offer about 500km driving range.
However, in the LDV eT60, maximum driving range on a single charge is listed at *330km* because of the heavy-duty workhorse vehicle's extra weight and tall body.
The LDV eT60 ute unladen tips the scales at* 3050kg*.
LDV data shows *driving range is halved when towing* or carrying a heavy load.


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## JohnDe (22 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> China's LDV first to market with a readily available E.V ute, that is if you can afford it.
> It does tend to show the limitations of heavy electric vehicles, it is nearly a ton heavier than the ICE T60.
> 
> 
> ...




LDV  I hope their EVs are 100% better than their diesel vans. Prices are low for a reason, cheap materials don't last in our Australian environment, poor availability of parts.


----------



## sptrawler (22 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> LDV  I hope their EVs are 100% better than their diesel vans. Prices are low for a reason, cheap materials don't last in our Australian environment, poor availability of parts.



$93,000 might be cheap to some, to me it is a bloody lot of money, for a work vehicle that can only cover 150klm when loaded. 🤣


----------



## sptrawler (22 November 2022)

On a side note, I have only done 1,200klm in the Kona, but now the weather is warming up I'm a bit surprised how much the A/C reduces your available battery.
Like today driving on the freeway, at start the gauge said something like 410km to empty, as soon as I put on the A/C it dropped to something like 365km to empty.
I'm glad I chose to not get a sunroof, especially with W.A summers, they are bloody hot.


----------



## JohnDe (22 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> $93,000 might be cheap to some, to me it is a bloody lot of money, for a work vehicle that can only cover 150klm when loaded. 🤣




Wrong way around. Compared to what other manufacturers will be offering the pricing is low, but the product is cheap.


----------



## sptrawler (22 November 2022)

Well it will be interesting to see how much demand there is IMO.


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## JohnDe (22 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> On a side note, I have only done 1,200klm in the Kona, but now the weather is warming up I'm a bit surprised how much the A/C reduces your available battery.
> Like today driving on the freeway, at start the gauge said something like 410km to empty, as soon as I put on the A/C it dropped to something like 365km to empty.
> I'm glad I chose to not get a sunroof, especially with W.A summers, they are bloody hot.




That doesn’t sound right, you should take closer note & clarify with the company.

Latest OTA update for my model allows me to see the power usage -


----------



## sptrawler (22 November 2022)

I will take more notice and correlate some data.
Ive order a bluetooth obd2 transmitter and will download an EV app.
The Kona guessameter is supposed to be one of the most accurate of the EV manufacturers, apparently from what Ive read the Tesla distance guessameter is a bit optimistic.
It will be an interesting project, because I travel a set route every week, I should be able to get some fairly good data.


----------



## qldfrog (23 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> On a side note, I have only done 1,200klm in the Kona, but now the weather is warming up I'm a bit surprised how much the A/C reduces your available battery.
> Like today driving on the freeway, at start the gauge said something like 410km to empty, as soon as I put on the A/C it dropped to something like 365km to empty.
> I'm glad I chose to not get a sunroof, especially with W.A summers, they are bloody hot.



It's ok,even with AC you got twice the range of the only EV ute in Oz if it does any work
But yes, 10% hit for using AC is significant.could it be a design issue and your AC is powered directly by the battery?


----------



## qldfrog (23 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> It's ok,even with AC you got twice the range of the only EV ute in Oz if it does any work
> But yes, 10% hit for using AC is significant.could it be a design issue and your AC is powered directly by the battery?



Thinking about it, it is probably as you still want ac at the red light when your motor is off.
On an ice, the engine running powers via a belt your AC, when you idle or go downhill, brake or slowdown, the AC is basically (energy) free.no such thing on an EV..sure regen brake reloads the battery but you loose on charge discharge for the AC during this time.
Interesting


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> It's ok,even with AC you got twice the range of the only EV ute in Oz if it does any work
> But yes, 10% hit for using AC is significant.could it be a design issue and your AC is powered directly by the battery?



How much does a petrol car use to run the AC? I know that the old commodore used to see a visible change in the rev counter when idling and I switch on the AC, but I don’t know the % change.

@sptrawler was that extreme change in the consumption just when the AC first came on and had to blow really hard?

I know with My Tesla if I set the climate to 22 degrees it doesn’t normally require much energy to maintain that temp, but first 2 minutes of so the AC will blow really hard to get it there.

Can you control your AC via your App? If so maybe on hot days switch it on to cool the car a couple of minutes before you unplug, so that you draw that from the power point.


----------



## Value Collector (23 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Thinking about it, it is probably as you still want ac at the red light when your motor is off.
> On an ice, the engine running powers via a belt your AC, when you idle or go downhill, brake or slowdown, the AC is basically (energy) free.no such thing on an EV..sure regen brake reloads the battery but you loose on charge discharge for the AC during this time.
> Interesting



Having the AC run of the battery is great for when you have to wait in the car for some one and want the AC running and it only requires the small little electric mortar running, rather than idling my old 3.6 Litre commodore engine. 

I don’t think the benefit of having your AC run “free” for a few seconds when you brake or roll down hill comes close to the energy saving of EV regen Braking.


----------



## JohnDe (23 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I will take more notice and correlate some data.
> Ive order a bluetooth obd2 transmitter and will download an EV app.
> The Kona guessameter is supposed to be one of the most accurate of the EV manufacturers, apparently from what Ive read the Tesla distance guessameter is a bit optimistic.
> It will be an interesting project, because I travel a set route every week, I should be able to get some fairly good data.




Kona's EPA rated range estimate may be most accurate of all EVs, however, the Tesla's actual driving estimate is one of the best. Tesla estimate is continually updating by taking into account things like temperature, altitude, etc.

A 10% consumption increase using the A/C can't be correct, it is probably caused by the management system and an update will most likely resolve this. However, a faulty A/C pump could be causing an issue and if it is you need to get on top of this early. The worst case that I've seen with my Tesla is 1%. If I were you, I would report it now and keep a data log.

_It's important to note that different automakers use different testing cycles to estimate an EV's range. Moreover, the tests that Tesla uses for the EPA are also different from rivals'. For this reason, some people have worked to prove that while Tesla's vehicles don't often live up to their EPA-rated range in real-world driving, some competing EVs actually exceed the range estimates, especially in the most ideal conditions._​​_Meanwhile, *Tesla's vehicles aren't set up this way. Owners can choose to look at the car's remaining range, which isn't a "range estimator" like that of almost all other EVs. *Tesla owners can also choose to switch to another mode that shows the battery percentage remaining. Most Tesla owners we've talked to have suggested paying attention to the percentage to have a better idea of how much range you have remaining._​_








						Tesla Reportedly Adds New Factors For EV Range Accuracy
					

Gas car range varies widely, but people don't pay attention to it. However, it's a big factor when it comes to EVs. Tesla seems to be tweaking its range game.




					insideevs.com
				



_​


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2022)

Thanks for the info @JohnDe , it goes in for the first service on 12 Dec, I will ask them to check it.
I will take some pictures of the readouts, yesterday was the first day I had used the A/C, so I only took a passing interest as we were driving down the motorway.


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## JohnDe (23 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> Thinking about it, it is probably as you still want ac at the red light when your motor is off.
> On an ice, the engine running powers via a belt your AC, when you idle or go downhill, brake or slowdown, the AC is basically (energy) free.no such thing on an EV..sure regen brake reloads the battery but you loose on charge discharge for the AC during this time.
> Interesting




That is not how they work.

An EV motor does not need to run to power the A/C pump.

ICEVs engine stay on when traveling downhill, it needs to, otherwise the A/C pump stops. A few new high end ICEV models have a electric A/C compressor, but not many.

Regen braking produces more energy than the A/C uses, an EV is actually more efficient in stop-start driving.


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## Garpal Gumnut (23 November 2022)

As a convert to the concept of renewables and EV's ( but not for myself ) I believe a limit should be put on the size and power of EV's.

Otherwise we will continue to make bigger and wider highways and squash young families in to smaller and smaller adjacent house blocks. 

EV Public transport should be cheap enough to limit the growth of EV private transport as occurred when the ICE replaced the horse. 

gg


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## JohnDe (23 November 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> As a convert to the concept of renewables and EV's ( but not for myself ) I believe a limit should be put on the size and power of EV's.
> 
> Otherwise we will continue to make bigger and wider highways and squash young families in to smaller and smaller adjacent house blocks.
> 
> ...




Are you asking that governments introduce rules that make it illegal for manufactures to design and build EVs to the current sizing regulations? Or would you prefer other means, such as - massive tax increases on large vehicles, and tax discounts for small vehicles?


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## Garpal Gumnut (23 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Are you asking that governments introduce rules that make it illegal for manufactures to design and build EVs to the current sizing regulations? Or would you prefer other means, such as - massive tax increases on large vehicles, and tax discounts for small vehicles?



This is a worldwide problem in cities. 

Larger and more complex highways and interchanges are being built to accomodate more and more vehicles. 

I don't have a suggestion as to how to implement my idea, but building more roads just encourages motorists to get bigger e.g SUV and more powerful cars. 

There is an opportunity to limit vehicles with this change from the ICE to EV and it would be a good time to grab it. 

gg


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## qldfrog (23 November 2022)

If anyone actually purchases purchased a BYD, 0lease contact me/describe your experience.
We got a great test drive review so far but keen on more info


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## JohnDe (23 November 2022)

Garpal Gumnut said:


> This is a worldwide problem in cities.
> 
> Larger and more complex highways and interchanges are being built to accomodate more and more vehicles.
> 
> ...




I can't see regulators being able to do much to alleviate the problems that you highlight. Introduce tax incentives and people will scream blue murder, make laws banning certain size vehicles and people will scream, make infrastructure smaller and people will scream and crash.

Maybe Elon Musk and Tesla are onto something, develop and build autonomous vehicles to reduce the number of vehicles required on the road.



> *What Riding in a Self-Driving Tesla Tells Us About the Future of Autonomy*
> By Cade Metz, Ben Laffin, Hang Do Thi Duc and Ian Clontz. Cade and Ian spent six hours riding in a self-driving car in Jacksonville, Fla., to report this story. Nov. 14, 2022
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (23 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> China's LDV first to market with a readily available E.V ute, that is if you can afford it.
> It does tend to show the limitations of heavy electric vehicles, it is nearly a ton heavier than the ICE T60.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Garpal Gumnut (23 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I can't see regulators being able to do much to alleviate the problems that you highlight. Introduce tax incentives and people will scream blue murder, make laws banning certain size vehicles and people will scream, make infrastructure smaller and people will scream and crash.
> 
> Maybe Elon Musk and Tesla are onto something, develop and build autonomous vehicles to reduce the number of vehicles required on the road.



I would agree on your two points in the first sentence.

It really is getting ridiculous though the proliferation of highways which is in indirect proportion to the the time saved to get somewhere.

Whenever I travel south to the three villages, Noosa Heads, Brisbane or Coolangatta I travel the inland route via Belyando Crossing as the Bruce Highway particularly within 100 - 200 km either side of George St. has been a construction site for the last five years.

Autonomous ( aka Zombie ) vehicles are here already in ICE form, hordes of Victorian caravans clogging up Queensland highways in winter with the obligatory bowlers' hats showing in the back window. It won't solve it for me in my Arnage if the silly bas**rds from East Bentleigh or some other godforsaken place go EV travelling nose to a*se at 80kph.

My solution would be only to license smaller EVs. Incentives would not work.

gg


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## sptrawler (23 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Thanks for the info @JohnDe , it goes in for the first service on 12 Dec, I will ask them to check it.
> I will take some pictures of the readouts, yesterday was the first day I had used the A/C, so I only took a passing interest as we were driving down the motorway.



I thought I would have a bit of a look through the screens on the Kona and found these ones. I switched the A/C on and then A/C off, the car showed the projected range.


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## Value Collector (23 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I thought I would have a bit of a look through the screens on the Kona and found these ones. I switched the A/C on and then A/C off, the car showed the projected range.
> 
> View attachment 149636
> 
> ...



So its estimating that running the climate control will reduce your range by 7%, I guess it also depends on the temp you set it too does it?


----------



## sptrawler (23 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> So its estimating that running the climate control will reduce your range by 7%, I guess it also depends on the temp you set it too does it?



I would guess so, I will have a play with different settings, it is quite interesting.


----------



## Smurf1976 (23 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Are you asking that governments introduce rules that make it illegal for manufactures to design and build EVs to the current sizing regulations?



I'm definitely not in favour of doing away with private cars as such, there's a perfectly good reason why they're by far the most practical transport option for many, but on the other hand I'm none too keen on the "arms race" we have at present with ICE cars.

Some of the utes in particular would pretty much run straight over the bonnet of a small car in the even of a head-on crash, leading to a situation where anyone with even the most basic knowledge of physics starts thinking they ought be buying a big vehicle simply because the chances are, in the event of an accident, the other vehicle is indeed going to be somewhat heavier than a "large" car was just a few years ago.


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## Value Collector (23 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I would guess so, I will have a play with different settings, it is quite interesting.



One other trick I have learned when it comes to winter, is that using the heated seat uses less energy than heating the whole cabin using the climate control.

———————

When I said that to one of my friends he mentioned that “that’s the good thing about petrol cars, heating them doesn’t use extra fuel” but I quickly pointed out that is because you are always wasting about 50% of your fuel to heat loss, so it only seems like it’s not using extra fuel because you are always just wasting all that energy all the time, so capturing a small portion of it is easy, but EV’s are so efficient that if you want some extra heat most of it has to come from your battery, because there just isn’t the wasted energy anywhere.


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## JohnDe (23 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> One other trick I have learned when it comes to winter, is that using the heated seat uses less energy than heating the whole cabin using the climate control.
> 
> ————




Not sure about that. Heated seats use heavy wire as a resistor, electrical current is passed through the wire which heats up because of the resistance. This is an inefficient use of electricity, and is why Tesla changed its cabin heater from a resistor type heater to a heat pump.


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## Smurf1976 (24 November 2022)

As a practical observation, people often do bizarre things with heating / cooling in cars.

Like running the A/C compressor literally every time they drive the car whether needed or not, then turning the heating up if they feel cold. Unless the aim is to reduce humidity, which sometimes it is but usually it isn't, then that's a bizarre thing to be doing.

Oh how I wish our schools would put more focus on teaching physics.


----------



## qldfrog (24 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> One other trick I have learned when it comes to winter, is that using the heated seat uses less energy than heating the whole cabin using the climate control.
> 
> ———————
> 
> When I said that to one of my friends he mentioned that “that’s the good thing about petrol cars, heating them doesn’t use extra fuel” but I quickly pointed out that is because you are always wasting about 50% of your fuel to heat loss, so it only seems like it’s not using extra fuel because you are always just wasting all that energy all the time, so capturing a small portion of it is easy, but EV’s are so efficient that if you want some extra heat most of it has to come from your battery, because there just isn’t the wasted energy anywhere.



As if neither the motors or the batteries need cooling in EV?
More a matter of design not (yet) good enough to get this extra heat back into the cabin at will


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> As if neither the motors or the batteries need cooling in EV?
> More a matter of design not (yet) good enough to get this extra heat back into the cabin at will



The electric motor loses very little heat compared to a petrol motor, and they actually use the small amount of heat they lose to keep the battery warm. 

Just look at the efficiency of the petrol motor run about 35% efficiency, and most of that lost energy is heat, hence why you need large radiators.


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Not sure about that. Heated seats use heavy wire as a resistor, electrical current is passed through the wire which heats up because of the resistance. This is an inefficient use of electricity, and is why Tesla changed its cabin heater from a resistor type heater to a heat pump.



 not my 2019 model 3, it uses resistance heating for the cabin.

Also, the Heated seat suggestion vs the cabin heater comes from Tesla themselves, even though is less efficient per unit of heat, the fact you are directly heating your body vs the cubic metres of air in the whole cabin means it takes less heat.


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> As a practical observation, people often do bizarre things with heating / cooling in cars.
> 
> Like running the A/C compressor literally every time they drive the car whether needed or not, then turning the heating up if they feel cold. Unless the aim is to reduce humidity, which sometimes it is but usually it isn't, then that's a bizarre thing to be doing.
> 
> Oh how I wish our schools would put more focus on teaching physics.



I have my climate control set to 22 in the car, and it sits there pretty much all year, sometimes I drop it down to 21.


----------



## JohnDe (24 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I have my climate control set to 22 in the car, and it sits there pretty much all year, sometimes I drop it down to 21.




I have found that having the climate control on all year round improves the reliability of the A/C system. 

When the A/C is running the compressor is pumping the refrigerant and lubricant around the whole system, the internal pipes, valves and other components remain wet and protected from acids and moisture corrosion.

Having the system turned off for long periods causes the lubricant to fall to the lowest spot, internal components lose the protective oil barrier and become susceptible to corrosion. The compressor is prone to vibration damage when stationary for long periods and continual engine vibration, which causes the compressors internal components to vibrate with no lubricant barrier.


----------



## sptrawler (24 November 2022)

I was wondering when the road usage tax imposed by the States, was going to be challenged, apparently it is going to the high court.
It is a bit of a scam, the States saying the tax was to replace the fuel excise tax, when the fuel excise tax was a Federal tax.









						States unite in High Court bid to intercept electric-car tax from Federal Government – report
					

The Federal Government has backed a High Court challenge against Victoria and its road-user tax.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## Value Collector (24 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> I have found that having the climate control on all year round improves the reliability of the A/C system.
> 
> When the A/C is running the compressor is pumping the refrigerant and lubricant around the whole system, the internal pipes, valves and other components remain wet and protected from acids and moisture corrosion.
> 
> Having the system turned off for long periods causes the lubricant to fall to the lowest spot, internal components lose the protective oil barrier and become susceptible to corrosion. The compressor is prone to vibration damage when stationary for long periods and continual engine vibration, which causes the compressors internal components to vibrate with no lubricant barrier.



When reading about vehicle A/C last night, an maintenance guy did suggest running it atleast every 2 weeks.


----------



## JohnDe (24 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> When reading about vehicle A/C last night, an maintenance guy did suggest running it atleast every 2 weeks.




Yes, always recommended. Though few owners remember to do it. Some manufacturers, like Nissan, used to have the A/C compressor operate when selecting Reverse.

It doesn't matter the quality or how good the refrigerant hoses are, they are permeable. A coating of lubricant on the inside of the hoses improves the sealing and reduces refrigerant loss significantly, The lubricant is distributed by refrigerant flow controlled by the compressor.


----------



## sptrawler (24 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Yes, always recommended. Though few owners remember to do it. Some manufacturers, like Nissan, used to have the A/C compressor operate when selecting Reverse.
> 
> It doesn't matter the quality or how good the refrigerant hoses are, they are permeable. A coating of lubricant on the inside of the hoses improves the sealing and reduces refrigerant loss significantly, The lubricant is distributed by refrigerant flow controlled by the compressor.



Spot on @JohnDe your post is a good heads up for members, even home A/C's should be given a run an a regular basis, otherwise when you need them they don't work, for the reasons you have covered.


----------



## qldfrog (24 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> As if neither the motors or the batteries need cooling in EV?
> More a matter of design not (yet) good enough to get this extra heat back into the cabin at will



And for more details on thermal mgt for EV:








						EV Thermal Management or Cooling EVs - Lubes'N'Greases
					

Future analysts will point to 2019 as the start of the groundswell in electric driving, certainly in terms of new models. In 2018, virtually all major manufacturers presented a mass-market battery electric vehicle, including PSA and Volkswagen Group. In China, the push for BEVs continued...




					www.lubesngreases.com
				



Plenty of heat available to warm the habitacle..but not as easy as pumping air from an ice engine room


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## JohnDe (24 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> And for more details on thermal mgt for EV:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Heat is energy. Energy produces heat. Which uses energy more efficiently, an engine or a motor?

*Thermodynamics and Combustion Efficiency*​​_Combustion engines are stupefyingly inefficient. Most diesel engines do not even have a thermal efficiency of 50%. Of every gallon of diesel burned by a combustion engine, less than half of the energy generated becomes mechanical energy._​​_And, petrol-powered vehicles are even more inefficient, considerably more inefficient. _​​_While it may sound like a vehicle that only converts 50% of the thermal energy it produces during combustion into mechanical energy is extraordinarily inefficient, many vehicles on the road actually waste close to 80% of the energy produced during the combustion of fuel._​
*Internal combustion engine vs electric motor*

Although the internal combustion engine and the electric motor are used for the same purpose, their construction and modes of operation are completely different. By comparing the two types of drive, the advantages of the electric motor become clear. The electric motor requires fewer (moving) parts. These are also less susceptible to wear and tear. This results in lower maintenance costs. Electric motors also work much more efficiently than internal combustion engines. This means that *80% of electrical energy can be converted into propulsion, whilst only 20% is lost as heat*. With a internal combustion engine, on the other hand, only about 25% of the energy generated can be used for propulsion.


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## Value Collector (24 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> And for more details on thermal mgt for EV:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you need to get your facts a bit straighter, Yes the motor in a Tesla produces heat when its moving, but no where near the amount of heat that an Ice car does and It does idle like an ice car. Most of this waste heat is diverted to the battery to keep it at its ideal temp, because except for when its super charging or under really higher loads or in really hot weather the battery doesn't need cooling, it actually needs warming.

If there is excess heat it can be used to heat the cabin, I have tested this at the super charger when I set the climate control to 25 degrees (when it was 16 degrees outside), and I turned the A/C off but warm air was still coming out of the vents, although not as warn as if I had the heater running, but there was heat being put into the cabin.

I know you really like to try and find flaws in Ev's, but you are just wrong on this one. Think about it, there is only a small electric motor in a Tesla located between the back wheels, and that electric motor is about 90% efficient meaning only about 10% of the energy put into it gets lost as heat, however a petrol Motor is only about 40% thermally efficient meaning 60% of the energy is lost as heat.

Reclaiming some of that 60% energy lost to heat the cabin for a few months of the year is good, but it is much better to just not lose that heat in the first place, and only have to pay for the heat you actually want.


----------



## rcw1 (26 November 2022)

Good morning,
Published today (26/11/22).

2022 News Corp Car of the Year finalists revealed​Some game-changing vehicles have hit the market this year, setting new benchmarks in nearly every type of vehicle segment in Australia. 
Dom Tripolone
4 min read
November 24, 2022 - 8:30PM
News Corp Australia Network

Electric vehicles may still be a rare sight on Australian roads, but they make up a large part of the field for the 25th running of News Corp’s Car of the Year.
Out of the eight finalists, three are electric vehicles and one is a hybrid, leaving just two diesel and two conventional petrol cars.

Ford’s Ranger and Everest are a triumph for a local car industry that was prematurely declared dead several years ago.  
More than 2500 Australian designers and engineers helped to develop the ute and four-wheel-drive wagon, which are sold in more than 180 countries around the world. But the two diesels represent the old guard in an industry that is increasingly focused on electric vehicles.

Tesla sparked the revolution and it is represented by the Model Y. BYD, which is relatively unknown in Australia but recently overtook Tesla as the world’s biggest electric car maker, will provide stiff opposition, as will Kia with its EV6.

Nissan’s popular X-Trail, Toyota’s hybrid Corolla Cross and Subaru’s thrilling BRZ complete the field.  Some top quality machines have missed the cut. The new Mercedes-Benz C-Class, a former Car of the Year winner, is not on the list. Neither are the Audi A3, Mitsubishi Outlander or Volkswagen Golf R. Here are the finalists:

Which car should win the 2022 News Corp Car of the Year?​


BYD Atto 3


Ford Everest


Ford Ranger


Kia EV6


Nissan X-Trail


Subaru BRZ


Tesla Model Y


Toyota Corolla Cross


----------



## sptrawler (26 November 2022)

BYD prices start to rise, on increase in material costs.








						BYD hits new production record as Atto 3 prices rise, for some
					

BYD hits new EV production record in September, while a price increase in New Zealand makes Australia's Atto 3 prices a bit of a bargain.




					thedriven.io
				



From the article:

The extended-range model has also seen a price increase of $2,000 NZD. That’s before on-road costs or subtracting NZ’s Clean Car Discount.
With prices of raw materials and transportation increasing, these prices are expected for more affordable EVs like those offered by BYD. 
It’s not only BYD indicating price increases but others like Polestar have done the same with much sharper price increases in the Chinese market.
It’s currently unclear if the price increases will follow here in Australia but given what we have seen across the ditch in New Zealand, the new BYD Atto 3 in Australia is currently a bit of a bargain for anyone looking at an affordable ground-up EV.


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## JohnDe (27 November 2022)

> *How Long Does A Tesla Battery Last In Australia?*
> 
> How long does a Tesla battery last in Australia? This is becoming more of a common question now that Tesla has doubled its presence on Australian roads. Teslas are everywhere! Someone recently commented that they are becoming as common as cockroaches and cane toads. As these questioners appear to be genuine, I thought I would do some research to dispel their concerns about how long a Tesla battery lasts in Australia.
> 
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (27 November 2022)

Barely makes the news when it’s petrol cars, but could you imagine if this was Tesla?









						Ford recalls over half a million SUVs after 20 fires break out | CNN Business
					

Ford has announced another SUV recall, this time impacting about 520,000 Ford Escape and Bronco Sport compacts in the United States. Potential cracks in the vehicles' fuel line could cause fires to break out under the hood of some cars, according to Ford and the National Highway Traffic Safety...




					edition.cnn.com


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## farmerge (28 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Tesla are looking to build more Gigafactory's, one to be announced very soon and it is possibly Canada. If Australian governments and industry put their heads together we could offer try and get into the next round a few year from now.
> 
> Imagine having a Tesla Gigafactory build in Australia. New technologies, improved capabilities for our work force, refining of our minerals in our own backyard, supplying EVs to countries in our region. We have all the raw materials. land and sun, we have the technical colleges which the Feds are going to boost with more funding.



Good evening JohnDe have been thinking about EV's since you invested way back when. Since then though a family I do a lot of work for, and he is no dud, have bought a Hybrid model. in under 12 months the battery died leaving him stranded in the middle of South Perth at a medical facility. Quite an expensive exercise to get a replacement battery and get and running again. BUT me and she are still toying with the idea, and our nxt and final vehicle purchase will either a full EV or a Hybrid. 50/50.


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## Value Collector (28 November 2022)

farmerge said:


> Good evening JohnDe have been thinking about EV's since you invested way back when. Since then though a family I do a lot of work for, and he is no dud, have bought a Hybrid model. in under 12 months the battery died leaving him stranded in the middle of South Perth at a medical facility. Quite an expensive exercise to get a replacement battery and get and running again. BUT me and she are still toying with the idea, and our nxt and final vehicle purchase will either a full EV or a Hybrid. 50/50.



Wouldn’t that be covered under warranty? 

Teslas have an 8 years warranty on the battery.


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## JohnDe (28 November 2022)

farmerge said:


> Good evening JohnDe have been thinking about EV's since you invested way back when. Since then though a family I do a lot of work for, and he is no dud, have bought a Hybrid model. in under 12 months the battery died leaving him stranded in the middle of South Perth at a medical facility. Quite an expensive exercise to get a replacement battery and get and running again. BUT me and she are still toying with the idea, and our nxt and final vehicle purchase will either a full EV or a Hybrid. 50/50.




Did your friend purchase ,a 'new' for him, second hand hybrid vehicle?

 A new under warranty hybrid should have all components covered under warranty, unless the owner has done something to void the warranty.

By the time you are ready to purchase there will be a lot more options and information.









						Hybrid car batteries explained
					

If your knowledge of batteries extends about as far as “I’m pretty sure the TV remote takes double-As”, the world of electrified vehicles - hybrids, plug-in electric vehicles (PHEVs) and pure electric vehicles (EVs) - and the batteries they use may all seem a bit foreign.




					www.carsguide.com.au


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## sptrawler (28 November 2022)

farmerge said:


> Good evening JohnDe have been thinking about EV's since you invested way back when. Since then though a family I do a lot of work for, and he is no dud, have bought a Hybrid model. in under 12 months the battery died leaving him stranded in the middle of South Perth at a medical facility. Quite an expensive exercise to get a replacement battery and get and running again. BUT me and she are still toying with the idea, and our nxt and final vehicle purchase will either a full EV or a Hybrid. 50/50.






Value Collector said:


> Wouldn’t that be covered under warranty?
> 
> Teslas have an 8 years warranty on the battery.



Yes LG had an issue with the way they were building the battery packs and had to recall and change a lot of 2019/20 Hyundai, Kia and some Chevy Bolt cars to replace the traction batteries.
The Kia's that had the same battery pack manufactured by SK innovation didn't have the issue.
Apparently the issue( which was something to do with end tab insulation) has been resolved and it didn't deter me from purchasing a Hyundai Kona EV, there will always be some issues with new technology, especially when processes are being scaled up IMO.
From my understanding the recall is just about complete.
By the way @farmerge did your friend keep the car, or move it on?








						Cells in GM, Hyundai EV battery fires linked to several LG plants
					

Shares of Korean battery maker LG Chem (051910.KS) slid to a nine-month low on Friday as investors digested reports linking fires in General Motors Co and Hyundai Motor Co (005380.KS) vehicles to LG batteries from at least two Asia plants.




					www.reuters.com
				












						The $1.13 billion recall: Hyundai to replace batteries in 82,000 electric cars due to fire risk
					

Australia will be part of a global recall of two of Hyundai’s latest electric cars due to a fire risk when recharging.




					www.drive.com.au


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## farmerge (28 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Did your friend purchase ,a 'new' for him, second hand hybrid vehicle?
> 
> A new under warranty hybrid should have all components covered under warranty, unless the owner has done something to void the warranty.
> 
> ...



No it was a demo model but I think he may have left something on for an extended period of time, hence the DEAD battery.


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## JohnDe (28 November 2022)

farmerge said:


> No it was a demo model but I think he may have left something on for an extended period of time, hence the DEAD battery.




Demonstrator vehicles carry the remaining factory warranty. 

I would hazard a guess that he’s not telling you all the facts. The only thing an owner of an EV can do to kill the battery pack is to drive it until the batteries are totally drained. Pretty hard in an hybrid, unless they ran it out of liquid fuel first.


----------



## Value Collector (28 November 2022)

farmerge said:


> No it was a demo model but I think he may have left something on for an extended period of time, hence the DEAD battery.



Was it a flat battery or a dead battery? Kinda of two different things.

I agree with Johnde, I think he is not giving you all the facts some how.


----------



## sptrawler (28 November 2022)

farmerge said:


> No it was a demo model but I think he may have left something on for an extended period of time, hence the DEAD battery.



Another issue that is happening with E.V's is, a lot use an auxilliary 12v car batteries to run the auxilliary equipment eg lights, stereo, cabin fan, standby electronics etc. This can be charged by the traction battery, but the way the user sets it up can be a bit problematic, from what I understand.
I recently went away for 4 weeks, I put a 12v trickle charger on, before I left. I'm not confident in my tech knowledge of setting up the car to look after the 12v battery when I'm not using it.


----------



## farmerge (29 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Was it a flat battery or a dead battery? Kinda of two different things.
> 
> I agree with Johnde, I think he is not giving you all the facts some how.



From what my mate has told me the battery was deader than a Dodo.


----------



## farmerge (29 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Demonstrator vehicles carry the remaining factory warranty.
> 
> I would hazard a guess that he’s not telling you all the facts. The only thing an owner of an EV can do to kill the battery pack is to drive it until the batteries are totally drained. Pretty hard in an hybrid, unless they ran it out of liquid fuel first.



Jogn De I'm probably not aware of all the facts surrounding this saga, but I do know he was totally brassed off coming out of a medical facility after a big shoulder op check-up to find this vehicle he was really impressed with to not being able to even open the door let alone start it.


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## sptrawler (29 November 2022)

It sounds like his 12v battery was dead.


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## JohnDe (29 November 2022)

farmerge said:


> Jogn De I'm probably not aware of all the facts surrounding this saga, but I do know he was totally brassed off coming out of a medical facility after a big shoulder op check-up to find this vehicle he was really impressed with to not being able to even open the door let alone start it.




Aah, that explains a lot. All car types still use a 12V acid battery (12V lithium is slowly being introduce) to operate regular functions like the central locking, radio, engine starter motor, headlights, and so on.

For your mate to be unable to open the doors, he had a dead flat 12V battery. And as you mentioned before, he probably left something on.

Mystery solved. Your mates hybrid did not have a dead lithium battery pack, he had a dead 12V battery. And like any type of ICEV, without the 12V battery it is not going to start.

I'm surprised that he didn't use the key and barrel to open the door, though I have come across some brands that hide the barrel very well. A VW Passat I came across had a dead battery, central locking could not work without power, couldn't get into the car to open the bonnet, and had to Google search how to get in - pop the plastic cover off the door handle and there was the lock barrel.


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## sptrawler (29 November 2022)

I have purchased a small lithium 12v jump pack that I leave in the car,  if the 12v battery dies you really are stuck in the E.V.


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## qldfrog (29 November 2022)

So a third battery in backup..hum..there is a design fault here.hopefully sorted soon..not that EV are that new


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## JohnDe (29 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> So a third battery in backup..hum..there is a design fault here.hopefully sorted soon..not that EV are that new




Third battery? No one I know of with an ICEV have a backup battery, other than my brothers Nissan Patrol.

The 12V battery in EVs because -

That’s important because most of an EV’s electrical devices – the infotainment system, power door locks, power windows, HVAC fan, and safety systems including airbags and ADAS technology – use 12 volts or less.​​If an electric vehicle’s 12-volt battery dies, what happens? Just like in a gas-powered vehicle, the power supply to many critical systems is compromised.​​But you aren’t exactly dead in the water. It’s a typical 12-volt system, which means you’re able to jump-start the system either with a booster pack or with jumper cables connected to another vehicle.​


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## JohnDe (29 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> I have purchased a small lithium 12v jump pack that I leave in the car,  if the 12v battery dies you really are stuck in the E.V.




No so different to a flat battery in an automatic petrol/diesel vehicle.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> So a third battery in backup..hum..there is a design fault here.hopefully sorted soon..not that EV are that new



How many batteries does your ICE car have? What happens if you leave your lights on?
ICE cars with flat batteries is a common thing. 

The car in question was a hybrid, so has limited battery storage and uses the petrol motor to charge the 12v, so will operate like an ice car and end up with a dead battery if you leave the lights on.

However full electric cars have a huge battery that they use to charge the 12v, so this wouldn’t have been an issue with an EV, but as I said common in ice cars.


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## farmerge (29 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> It sounds like his 12v battery was dead.



Yeah that was proved to be the case


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## sptrawler (29 November 2022)

farmerge said:


> Yeah that was proved to be the case



From what I've been hearing it can be a bit of an issue, the E.V 12v battery gets forgotten about and it probably doesn't get charged every time the car starts. I know on a forum I'm  on quite a few people have talked about a failing 12v battery it is probably one of those items that the E.V companies haven't dedicated a huge amount of time in the long term health issue.
But I bought a cheap lithium jump pack just in case, apparently a lot of people on the forum recommend it and I think it is cheap insurance.
If the jump pack can kick start the E.V's electrics, you can force the main battery to charge the 12v.
There are probably other ways around it, but I'm new to the E.V game, so just feeling my way ATM.


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## JohnDe (29 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> From what I've been hearing it can be a bit of an issue, the E.V 12v battery gets forgotten about and it probably doesn't get charged every time the car starts. I know on a forum I'm  on quite a few people have talked about a failing 12v battery it is probably one of those items that the E.V companies haven't dedicated a huge amount of time in the long term health issue.
> But I bought a cheap lithium jump pack just in case, apparently a lot of people on the forum recommend it and I think it is cheap insurance.
> If the jump pack can kick start the E.V's electrics, you can force the main battery to charge the 12v.
> There are probably other ways around it, but I'm new to the E.V game, so just feeling my way ATM.




Tesla recently change to installing 12V lithium batteries. My model just missed out, but I will get a message when the battery management system picks up an issue with the battery - *Tesla will now send push notifications when 12V battery needs to be replaced*



> Tesla Flat 12v Battery​Each Tesla has 2 batteries, the large expensive battery pack with an 8 year warranty and a traditional 12v battery that runs the cars ancillary systems like any other car. While many people monitor the health of the main battery pack, the 12v battery can fail or run flat, especially if the car is left for a long period of time and the main battery has entered its low energy mode.
> 
> If the 12v battery is flat then it can feel pretty terminal for the car, the doors won't unlock, the computers won't fire up and more worrying the main car battery will not charge. Tesla charge the 12v battery from the main battery pack, but Tesla also take the view they must protect the main battery pack as much as possible and if it is running low may put the battery into a deep sleep/low energy mode. This minimises any drain on the battery preserving its life, but this equally prevents it topping up the 12v battery and effectively paralysing the car. The 12v battery can run flat within 24 hours once the main battery pack has stopped supporting it.
> All is not lost however, and this guide talks you through how to get going again so long as the car is close to a charge port and you have access to a few tools and a the ability to provide a 12v jump start. The basic sequence is:
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Tesla recently change to installing 12V lithium batteries. My model just missed out, but I will get a message when the battery management system picks up an issue with the battery - *Tesla will now send push notifications when 12V battery needs to be replaced*



I can’t remember the details, but one of the software updates a a while back said something about changing when and how the 12v battery is charged.


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## Value Collector (29 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> From what I've been hearing it can be a bit of an issue, the E.V 12v battery gets forgotten about and it probably doesn't get charged every time the car starts. I know on a forum I'm  on quite a few people have talked about a failing 12v battery it is probably one of those items that the E.V companies haven't dedicated a huge amount of time in the long term health issue.
> But I bought a cheap lithium jump pack just in case, apparently a lot of people on the forum recommend it and I think it is cheap insurance.
> If the jump pack can kick start the E.V's electrics, you can force the main battery to charge the 12v.
> There are probably other ways around it, but I'm new to the E.V game, so just feeling my way ATM.



I used to have to charge my old commodore battery like that, I was constantly having battery issues with the commodore because I tended to not drive it much through the week days except for little short trips of about 2 kms, so the battery tended to drain.

But 3 years into the Tesla ownership I haven’t had to worry about the 12V,  I couldn’t even tell you where it is exactly in the car, Maybe it’s under the storage area in the front, but I really don’t know 😅.

I will keep neglecting it and let you guys know if I run into issues 👍🏼


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## Value Collector (29 November 2022)

I just found this information.









						Tesla Flat 12v Battery
					

Tesla flat 12v battery and what to do when stuck




					tesla-info.com


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## mullokintyre (29 November 2022)

EV 's do not have an alternator, and do not need one as they  have a DC -DC charger that takes the 48 volt or whatever the EV battery packs nominal voltage is, and transforms it back to 13.4 or so for charging the  12 volt battery.
I am surprised there is no software enabler that allows the EV main battery to use the DC-DC charger to maintain the 12 volt battery when the vehicle is not running.
If an EV has a 55 KW battery that is fully charged, it should be able to maintain a 20 amp hour 12 Volt battery at 90% charge for a long time unless whatever is still turned on in the EV drawing from the 12 volt battery is running at 1 amp or greater.
I am also surprised that all  EV's do not already have a lithium 12 volt battery.
They are lighter, can hold charge longer, can be depleted a lot more than a lead acid battery for the same  nominal output without severe degradation, but of course are more expensive.
Mick


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## JohnDe (29 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> EV 's do not have an alternator, and do not need one as they  have a DC -DC charger that takes the 48 volt or whatever the EV battery packs nominal voltage is, and transforms it back to 13.4 or so for charging the  12 volt battery.
> I am surprised there is no software enabler that allows the EV main battery to use the DC-DC charger to maintain the 12 volt battery when the vehicle is not running.
> If an EV has a 55 KW battery that is fully charged, it should be able to maintain a 20 amp hour 12 Volt battery at 90% charge for a long time unless whatever is still turned on in the EV drawing from the 12 volt battery is running at 1 amp or greater.
> I am also surprised that all  EV's do not already have a lithium 12 volt battery.
> ...




12V lead acid batteries do die from time to time. An EVs main battery will keep the 12V battery topped up, however the management system will not allow the main battery to sacrifice itself over the 12V battery -

_"...the 12v battery can fail or run flat, especially if the car is left for a long period of time and the main battery has entered its low energy mode."_​
Small 12V Lead acid batteries do have some minor advantages over a 12V lithium battery -

_"From 2022, many Teslas come with a Lithium Ion Low Voltage battery pack. This has some benefits but can also be more difficult to deal with if it runs flat. This battery typically has a voltage above 12V and as a result a normal car battery charger may not work. If you get a flat battery with these cars then roadside assistance may be the only option._​​_Coupled with the above, cars with the LFP main battery pack, which are typically Standard Range models, need to regularly top up the main battery to 100% to ensure the car maintains the correct charge level in the low voltage battery."_​








						Tesla Flat 12v Battery
					

Tesla flat 12v battery and what to do when stuck




					tesla-info.com


----------



## sptrawler (29 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I just found this information.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, that is kind of what I was alluding to and where a small jump pack comes in handy.
Not only if the 12v gets drained, or fails to charge, but when the 12v decides to die of old age exactly at the worst possible time as is usually the case.
You can guarantee the 12v battery will be the cheapest nastiest piece of crap they can lay their hands on. 🤣


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## mullokintyre (29 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes, that is kind of what I was alluding to and where a small jump pack comes in handy.
> Not only if the 12v gets drained, or fails to charge, but when the 12v decides to die of old age exactly at the worst possible time as is usually the case.
> You can guarantee the 12v battery will be the cheapest nastiest piece of crap they can lay their hands on. 🤣



With the ole ICE, if you get a car started, the alternator will supply sufficient power to keep the motor running regardless of the state of the battery, so even with a completely dead battery, a jump pack will start the car and the alternator will keep it running, so all is fine until you turn the engine off again.
The big question is , what is the EV equivalent of "starting the engine" to get the alternator running?
If enough power is supplied to open the contactor to the EV battery pack, the contactor for the DC-DC charger, then the 12 V battery should start charging.
If the battery is dead however, it will not charge, but does the EV  motor still keep "running" in standby before you put your foot on the accelerator?
Does the DC-Dvc charger (or more likely the software that controls it), still put out 13.4 volts to supply the non EV electricals, like lights, aircon or more importantly, the contactors that open the EV battery pack?
Will need to do some experiments  to work these things out.
Mick


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## JohnDe (29 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> With the ole ICE, if you get a car started, the alternator will supply sufficient power to keep the motor running regardless of the state of the battery, so even with a completely dead battery, a jump pack will start the car and the alternator will keep it running, so all is fine until you turn the engine off again.
> The big question is , what is the EV equivalent of "starting the engine" to get the alternator running?
> If enough power is supplied to open the contactor to the EV battery pack, the contactor for the DC-DC charger, then the 12 V battery should start charging.
> If the battery is dead however, it will not charge, but does the EV  motor still keep "running" in standby before you put your foot on the accelerator?
> ...




A lot of 'ifs' there.

What if the alternator has failed and caused the battery to go flat?
What if the battery is dead and affects the Power Control Module (PCM)? 
What if the car is an automatic and there is no booster pack available?
What if the Neutral Safety Switch has failed?
What if the ignition switch has failed?
What if the Main Fuse has failed?

_*Why Do Electric Cars Still Use 12-Volt Batteries?*_​​_There are a couple of reasons. First of all, an electric vehicle has two distinct needs when it comes to dispatching electrons: moving the car and everything else. Propulsion is handled by the big, expensive, latest-and-greatest high-voltage battery, because you need lightning in a bottle if you want to do the quarter-mile in 9.4 seconds. For charging, the more voltage, the better. But powering up the stereo does not require 800 volts. Nor would you want that coursing through every circuit in the car, for a variety of reasons. Safety, for one._​​_We asked Hyundai's EV engineers why the 12-volt battery persists, and Ryan Miller, manager of electrified powertrain development, responded. "All the ECUs in the vehicle are powered from the low voltage, as well as the power relays that separate power from the high-voltage battery pack and the rest of the high-voltage network in the car," he said. "That separation allows us to safely disconnect the high voltage from the low voltage when the vehicle is not being driven or in the event of a crash." You don't want first responders to contend with door locks powered by Doc Brown's Mr. Fusion._​​_There's also a legacy situation at play. Everyone—manufacturers and suppliers—knows how to make a 12-volt system work, affordably and reliably. Even if you manage to drain the 12-volt battery, you can break out the ol' jumper cables or Weego and solve the problem in a minute or two. Given all the other financial and technical challenges of building an EV, going with a 12-volt system for the car's computers and accessories makes sense. That's particularly true in the case of plug-in hybrids, which often retain as much commonality as possible with their traditional internal-combustion cousins._​​_It remains to be seen whether the world adopts some other common voltage—24 volts, or 48—but for now, the 12-volt system reigns. Whether that will always mean a separate battery that would work equally well in a 1968 Chevelle is more of an open question. Hyundai, for instance, considered the absurdity of jump-starting an electric car or hybrid and connected its low-voltage systems to the large traction battery, allowing electrified Hyundais to jump-start themselves when you push the "12V Batt Reset" button on the dash. And while that button conjures an image of your standard AC Delco lead-acid, the low-voltage systems are actually run by a 14-volt lithium-ion battery that sits inside the high-voltage battery pack. You won't find that at the local auto-parts store._​








						Why Do Electric Cars Still Use 12-Volt Batteries?
					

Your electric car or plug-in hybrid is propelled by a sophisticated lithium-ion battery, but you'll probably also find a lead-acid 12-volt battery in there somewhere. Don't throw away your jumper cables just yet.




					www.caranddriver.com


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## sptrawler (29 November 2022)

Yes the good old days, when all you needed was a bale of hay and a trough of water and the horse kept working and the only drop out could be picked up in a bucket then put on the garden. 🤣


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## macca (29 November 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Yes the good old days, when all you needed was a bale of hay and a trough of water and the horse kept working and the only drop out could be picked up in a bucket then put on the garden. 🤣




And it had flow through ventilation as well


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## mullokintyre (29 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> A lot of 'ifs' there.
> 
> What if the alternator has failed and caused the battery to go flat?
> What if the battery is dead and affects the Power Control Module (PCM)?
> ...



Yeah, but most of the If's were supplied by you.
I did some searching regarding the charging of 12v batteries in an EV.

One of the interesting things I found when reading Electronic design for RV
was that  some of the pins on the Pilot controller revert to 12 volts when  charging has been completed and the charging connector  removed, thus its normal state is a live 12 volts. 
Depending on how that 12 volt is managed, it means either a contactor, digital switch, or some othe rdigital  component will be drawing some current. So there will always be some current drain from the 12 volt battery, no matter how small.


> • When the vehicle detects that its battery has been charged to its maximum allowable state of charge, it causes the positive square-wave peak to rises to +9 V, signaling the EVSE to remove power. The +9-V, –12-V square wave on pin 6 continues until the cable is disconnected, when it reverts to the continuous +12-V state.



And just to confuse things, I found two quotes that basically said direct opposite things.
From KBB


> A dead 12-volt battery in an electric vehicle can happen for many reasons, including sitting unused for an extended period or a fault in the car’s charging circuit. No matter the reason for the low charge, the 12-volt battery must have enough power to start the car’s electrical system.
> 
> The 12-volt battery in an EV usually charges at the same time the car is charged and also through the electrical current that is transferred from the high-voltage battery when not connected to a charging station.
> 
> If the 12-volt battery in your EV has lost its charge, you can use jumper cables to try to start the vehicle.



Then there is Toms guide


> If an EV uses a 12V battery, which the majority do, the battery will be identical to those found in other cars. However the smaller battery draws its power from the car’s main power-train battery if its charge level dips too low.
> 
> It’s important to remember that this borrowing of charge usually does not happen when the car is plugged in. If you leave an EV on zero-percent main battery for long enough, the 12V battery will eventually die too.
> 
> What’s more, in some cases having a dead 12V battery may prevent the main battery from being recharged. That is not a situation you want to find yourself in.



So one guru says tha ta 12 volt battery usually charges at the same time the car is charged,
The other guru says that this "borrowing" of charge does not usually happen when the car is plugged in (I am assuming he means plugged in to a charger).
I saw other discussions that suggest that some vehicles only energise the Dc-Dc charger for the 12 volt battery when the battery is in traction mode, ie running, although this seems to be not part of the charging standards.
When i finally get my toy ev running, I will have to look at the canbus messages on the DC-Dc charging circuitry to find a deffinitve answer for that controller.
Mick


----------



## sptrawler (29 November 2022)

I know when I went on a months holiday in October, I put a trickle charger on the 12v battery, me of little faith. Lol


----------



## JohnDe (29 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yeah, but most of the If's were supplied by you.
> I did some searching regarding the charging of 12v batteries in an EV.
> 
> One of the interesting things I found when reading Electronic design for RV
> ...




Just pointing out that there is no infallible system in the automotive world.

Even an ICE vehicle battery has a constant draw of current. My wife's previous car (now our daughters), a Honda Accord Euro, would kill batteries if we left it standing for too long. We've gone through a higher number of batteries than normal, with the average battery life at 30 months, and the current best is a Century Ultra Hi Performance battery with 3 years and still going.

Each EV manufacturer may use a different 12V system, but they are still the same basic system. and some manufacturers are better than others. I believe that the Tesla system is one of the best, it not only maintains the 12V battery but notifies the driver when it detects an issue and recommends replacement.


----------



## Value Collector (29 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> With the ole ICE, if you get a car started, the alternator will supply sufficient power to keep the motor running regardless of the state of the battery, so even with a completely dead battery, a jump pack will start the car and the alternator will keep it running, so all is fine until you turn the engine off again.
> The big question is , what is the EV equivalent of "starting the engine" to get the alternator running?
> If enough power is supplied to open the contactor to the EV battery pack, the contactor for the DC-DC charger, then the 12 V battery should start charging.
> If the battery is dead however, it will not charge, but does the EV  motor still keep "running" in standby before you put your foot on the accelerator?
> ...



I think in that rare case I just call road side assistance or a battery guy and get a new battery.

As I said I happy to be a Guinea pig on this one for you guys, my car is 3 years old, and I am not going to change the 12 V until either Tesla tell me too or it fails, let’s see what happens. 

I think flat 12V in Ev’s are going to much less of a problem than in ice cars though.


----------



## sptrawler (29 November 2022)

Value Collector said:


> I think in that rare case I just call road side assistance or a battery guy and get a new battery.
> 
> As I said I happy to be a Guinea pig on this one for you guys, my car is 3 years old, and I am not going to change the 12 V until either Tesla tell me too or it fails, let’s see what happens.
> 
> I think flat 12V in Ev’s are going to much less of a problem than in ice cars though.



With your cash, you will probably just buy a new car, when the 12v battery fails. 🤣


----------



## qldfrog (30 November 2022)

On the charger availability issue..or planned issue, the USA is not immune








						I Rented an Electric Car for a Four-Day Road Trip. I Spent More Time Charging It Than I Did Sleeping.
					

Our writer drove from New Orleans to Chicago and back to test the feasibility of taking a road trip in an EV. She wouldn’t soon do it again.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## mullokintyre (30 November 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Yeah, but most of the If's were supplied by you.
> I did some searching regarding the charging of 12v batteries in an EV.
> 
> One of the interesting things I found when reading Electronic design for RV
> ...



So last night I did some checks on the electrical diagram for the DC-Dc charger in the toy car.
The key switch /ignition/start switch supplies 12v to the DC-DC converter which enables it to start charging. 
When the key switch is turned off, the EV battery via the DC-DC-Charger cannot  charge the 12 Volt battery.
So in this case, if I am to leave it for extended periods of time, I would need to have a trickle charge on the 12 battery.
According to EV central , the drain on the 12 battery during idle varies from vehicle manufactturer.


> While an EV’s main battery pack is isolated from the high-voltage circuits that connect it to the motor when the car is switched off for safety reasons, it remains connected to the low-power DC/DC converter that keeps the 12V battery charged.
> 
> All modern cars have components that need power from the 12V battery to stay awake even when the vehicle is switched off. Alarms, clocks and central locking sensors are obvious examples. In the case of an EV the list is longer. It will include things like battery pack management systems.



The BMS and controller as well as the display are always on on in the toy car, so there will be a small current draw all the time.
And when the wall charger is plugged in, unless the the key is turned on, the 12 battery does not also charge.


> In some EVs the drain can add up. Here’s what Tesla says in the user manual for the Model 3: “Even when the Model 3 is not being driven, its battery discharges very slowly to power the onboard electronics. The battery can discharge at a rate of approximately 1 percent per day, though the discharge rate may vary depending environmental factors (such as cold weather), vehicle configuration and your selected settings on the touchscreen.”
> 
> Model 3 owners are advised to take the rate of charge loss into account when, for example, planning to leave their car at the airport while taking a two-week holiday.
> 
> ...



So it pays to really understand how your EV charging system works, knowing whether the 12 V battery keeps  being charged by the DC-DC converter  during  hi voltage EV pack charge, whether it charges during  long storage,  and whether it is switchable to do so.
The toy car allows the key to be on during charge, so that radios, aircon, demisters etc will still work, but the the traction control is interlocked so you cannot drive away  with the charger cable attached.  I think I will add a switch to the system to enable the DC-DC charger  regardless of whether the key is on for longer term storage, rather than add a 12Volt  trickle charger as well as the granny charger  for traction battery maintenance  for long term storage.
Mick


----------



## JohnDe (30 November 2022)

qldfrog said:


> On the charger availability issue..or planned issue, the USA is not immune
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We discussed that article back in August / June.

By Rachel Wolfe
Updated June 3, 2022 3:53 pm ET


----------



## JohnDe (30 November 2022)

What happens when a Tesla is forgotten in a shed for 2 years -



> *Tesla Model 3 Stored For Two Years Is Not Your Usual Barn Find*
> 
> This brand-new Model 3 Long Range was parked outside and almost abandoned for about two years; does it still work?
> 
> ...


----------



## Value Collector (30 November 2022)

JohnDe said:


> What happens when a Tesla is forgotten in a shed for 2 years -



I would like to see how long the software update takes.


----------



## JohnDe (30 November 2022)

This looks interesting -




> Electric vehicles are making their way onto Australian roads. But when will we start to see more EVs on our farms? In what timeframe will electric heavy machinery become available? What infrastructure will be required to ensure that farmers and rural Australia are equipped to deal with this new demand?
> Join us to hear from Stephanie Gersekowski (John Deere) and Ross De Rango (Electric Vehicles Council)  who will share what is on the horizon for electric farm vehicles and what will be needed from our energy systems to make the most of these opportunities.
> 
> 
> ...






> Speakers​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (2 December 2022)




----------



## basilio (2 December 2022)

Now this is what I am looking for in EV.

Small but not tiny. Well built. 300k plus range .  Enough speed to keep up with the traffic. In production. *Current price probably 22-24k for Australia.*

Check out the  excellent you tube  driving review. The company that produces these has more exotic models.

Low-cost electric hatchbacks are finally making a big Leap into the market​
November 28, 2022
No comments
2 minute read
Riz Akhtar



	

		
			
		

		
	
                                    Source: Leapmotor                                            

Aside from Nissan Leaf, EV hatchbacks have been missing from the Australian EV market. But that may be about to change soon.
Last week, Australia’s first low cost EV hatchback was spotted being tested on the streets of Sydney.

Now the news is surfacing of an EV hatchback brand exporting cars to Israel which looks promising for other markets like  Australia.
Leapmotors is a Chinese EV brand that focuses on affordable EVs. Its T03 hatchback has just been launched in Israel after the brand opened its three showrooms in the country.
The T03 is an affordable city hatchback. It’s slightly smaller in length than a Toyota Yaris coming in at:

3,620 mm in length
1,652 mm in width
1,577 mm in height

It’s powered by a 55 kW motor that drives the front wheels and offers 155 Nm of torque which is plenty for inner-city driving.

The motor is fed by a 36.5 kWh battery pack which can deliver up to 300 km of WLTP range. 

For a car that costs less than $15,000 AUD in its local market, it offers a 10.1” infotainment screen as well as three outside cameras and twelve radars for level 2 autonomous driving.
*
This is quite remarkable to see the specifications and what’s included for that price. Even after shipping, local delivery and dealership costs, it could be an EV that’s available in the Australian market for under $22,000.








						Low-cost electric hatchbacks are finally making a big Leap into the market
					

Aside from Nissan Leaf, EV hatchbacks have been missing from the Australian EV market. But that may be about to change soon.




					thedriven.io
				



*


----------



## basilio (2 December 2022)

A different review of the Leap  T03.


----------



## JohnDe (2 December 2022)

basilio said:


> Now this is what I am looking for in EV.
> 
> Small but not tiny. Well built. 300k plus range .  Enough speed to keep up with the traffic. In production. *Current price probably 22-24k for Australia.*
> 
> ...





This evidence of why some of the traditional vehicle manufacturers are going to disappear. Just like what happened to Packard, Studebaker, Leyland, AMC, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, SAAB... the list is long of automobile manufacturers that have disappeared through bankruptcy or taken over by cashed up competition.


The problem this time is that there isn't much competition with the cash to buy a struggling company.


----------



## mullokintyre (3 December 2022)

I wondered about creating a separate thred for elctric trucks, but decided this was still the thread.
Tesla has (finally) delivered its first  EV Semi to pepsi .
fromDrive


> The Tesla Semi truck has commenced deliveries in the US – three years behind schedule but with 800km of real-world driving range when fully loaded, three times the power of any diesel truck, and more powerful charging than any production electric vehicle.
> *The first Tesla Semi electric truck has been delivered* in the US to soft-drink giant Pepsi – three years later than schedule, and five years after the vehicle was revealed.
> The Tesla Semi is the first of 100 examples reportedly ordered by the company. It was handed over during a ceremony on Friday afternoon Australian time after a string of extended delays.
> The Tesla Semi was revealed in 2017 with promises of the first deliveries in 2019.
> ...



There is some pretty impressive stats in that. 
800 kms on a single charge is good, especially as it was on a real world test drive  carrying a 37 ton GVM.
And  the price is a lot less than i would have expected, 
The caveats of course are  
1. The 1000 volt battery and motor pack is going to require some very serious training and isolation procedures during service.
2. Although the  stated  ability to charge at 1MW is sensational, the physical ability to have stations with multiple 1MW  outputs are going to create some engineering challlenges in terms of supply and distribution.
3. Truckies brought up on the delights of a cummins, detroit or caterpillar will take some convincing.
I can see where the new Freuhauf trailers coming out will have rooftop  solar panels to charge while stationary or even on the move. 
Maybe a smaller battery pack in the trailer to augment the semi may be the go.
Interesting times ahead.
Mick


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## basilio (3 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> 3. Truckies brought up on the delights of a cummins, detroit or caterpillar will take some convincing.



Perhaps a test drive ?  I suspect that the power, comfort, quietness and *operating economy* of these electric truck rigs will win users over in a heart beat. The cost of buying one will always be a factor but the cheapness of running it 24/7 will make many friends


----------



## JohnDe (3 December 2022)

basilio said:


> Perhaps a test drive ?  I suspect that the power, comfort, quietness and *operating economy* of these electric truck rigs will win users over in a heart beat. The cost of buying one will always be a factor but the cheapness of running it 24/7 will make many friends




One great safety feature is the regenerative braking. Google ‘adelaide hills truck crash’. Every year there are multiple accidents from trucks having brake failure down that hit, the Jacob Brakes aren’t up to the job.


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## sptrawler (4 December 2022)

A side of E.V's that people didn't see coming, obviously when power is restricted, so is E.V usage.









						Netflix and 20 degree chill: Switzerland looks to curb energy use
					

EVs would be banned from non-essential journeys, shop hours reduced and streaming services only permitted at low resolutions under proposed energy-saving measures.




					www.theage.com.au
				



Electric cars could be banned from making non-essential journeys in Switzerland this winter under a COVID-19 lockdown-style plan to deal with potential energy shortages.
Emergency proposals have been drafted by the government that could see buildings heated to no more than 20C, shop opening hours reduced and streaming services limited.


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## Value Collector (4 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> A side of E.V's that people didn't see coming, obviously when power is restricted, so is E.V usage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Same thing happens to petrol cars during oil shocks during wars, Australia and most of the western world has had Petrol rationing at multiple times.

The great thing with electricity is you can make your own, not many households can easily refine their own oil.

Also, not only can households make their own electricity, but obviously nations can make their own, so although the initial shock of russian energy being turned off is painful, the nations effected will wean them selves from that supplier and in the future the geopolitical energy problems will be less.


----------



## Value Collector (4 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I wondered about creating a separate thred for elctric trucks, but decided this was still the thread.
> Tesla has (finally) delivered its first  EV Semi to pepsi .
> fromDrive
> 
> ...



I think those truckers that love their diesels, will soon be convinced when they are sitting at 30km an hour chugging up an incline, and Tesla’s are charging past at 100km per hour not missing a beat on the incline.

I had a conversation will my brother in-law who is a trucker, over the week end about the Tesla semi. He told me he could never be convinced to drive an electric, but I showed him that footage of the Tesla vs the diesel on the incline and he literally had his jaw drop.

While I am guessing he will still have a sentimental attachment to the old diesels, but the end of that Tesla event video he seemed pretty convinced that they will be very hard to compete with.

———————
When it comes to charging, they won’t have to be charging at the full 1MW/hour speeds all the time.

Truckers need to sleep too, so a lot of their charging can be done at slower speeds, while the trucker is either sleeping or away from the truck at a depot or truck stop.

800kms is about 8 hours of driving, so if the truck was full at the start of the day via an over night or 5 hour type slow charge, the driver would have a full days driving ahead of him with only needing to charge towards the end, after 8 hours they are probably going to want (or be forced by law) to break for a meal and a rest for at least 30mins to an hour, during which time even a fast charger with 1/4 speed of the stated 1MW could pick up enough charge to get them another 4 hours driving before they stop for their nap, at which time a slower charger could be used again.


----------



## Smurf1976 (4 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> The great thing with electricity is you can make your own, not many households can easily refine their own oil.
> 
> Also, not only can households make their own electricity



I've actually done both. 

Electricity generation at home is however somewhat easier, safer and more successful than my attempts to get oil from shale in the backyard. I did manage to get oil from it, but not in an economical manner.

At a national or regional level though well if it gets hot, moves or shines then it can be turned into electricity. Any sort of fuel either fossil or bio, geothermal heat, nuclear energy, solar, wind, hydro, wave, tidal and so on. Between them there's far more options for producing electricity than there are for making petrol certainly.

That aspect alone is a huge benefit of EV's. There's still benefit in them even if 100% of the electricity is sourced from coal. It still has benefits in terms of not needing to import fuel from hostile regions etc.


----------



## JohnDe (5 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Same thing happens to petrol cars during oil shocks during wars, Australia and most of the western world has had Petrol rationing at multiple times.
> 
> *The great thing with electricity is you can make your own, not many households can easily refine their own oil.*
> 
> Also, not only can households make their own electricity, but obviously nations can make their own, so although the initial shock of russian energy being turned off is painful, the nations effected will wean them selves from that supplier and in the future the geopolitical energy problems will be less.




That is one point that most people forget, we can make or own electricity, but we can't make oil or fuel. 

We have two vehicles in our family, my partner was averaging $300 per month on the fuel card. Since replacing the Honda Accord Euro with a Tesla M3 we are saving an average of $150 per month by using solar, with the previous 30 days is turning out to be our best savings ever, $68 in power costs.

I challenge anyone to try making those type of savings with a petrol or diesel vehicle and an oil well in the backyard.


----------



## sptrawler (5 December 2022)

Smurf1976 said:


> I've actually done both.
> 
> Electricity generation at home is however somewhat easier, safer and more successful than my attempts to get oil from shale in the backyard. I did manage to get oil from it, but not in an economical manner.
> 
> ...



The real benefit IMO is, if push comes to shove, you can swap out the grid connect inverter, for a stand alone off grid one and charge the car from that if the need eventuates.
Happy days, now where is my tool bag.









						Growatt SPF5000ES – 5KW 48V OffGrid Inverter - GW Offgrid
					

or 4 Interest Free Payments of $371.25 The SPF5000ES is a 230VAC output voltage offgrid inverter for backup power or self consumption. Maximum PV voltage is 450VDC and this model has a battery-less mode. Parallel capable in either single phase or 3 phase modes. CEC Approved! IconText Integrated...




					gwoffgrid.com.au


----------



## JohnDe (5 December 2022)

> *AEVA Webinar - 6th December at 8pm*​*An introduction to Fellten with Chris Hazell and Dave Budge*​
> Zero EV Co-founder and CEO, and now CEO of Fellten, Chris Hazell, and Jaunt Motors Co-founder and CEO, and now Chief Design Officer of Fellten, Dave Budge will be joining us to discuss the future of their new global company, Fellten.
> Fellten (Welsh for lightning) is a global electric conversion systems manufacturer creating solutions for car owners and car workshops to convert traditional petrol and diesel cars into electric vehicles. Fellten has engineered systems for a variety of classic brands and models, starting with Porsche 911s, Classic Minis, and Land Rover Series and Defenders.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnDe (7 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> I wondered about creating a separate thred for elctric trucks, but decided this was still the thread.
> Tesla has (finally) delivered its first  EV Semi to pepsi .
> fromDrive
> 
> ...


----------



## mullokintyre (7 December 2022)

If one can believe rhe sales spiel, MIT may have made a lot of existing batteries, whether they be BYD blade or Teslas 4680, somewhat obsolete.
From Some bloke called Will Locket


> Musk’s plan to dominate the EV world was centred on Tesla’s 4680 battery. In theory, it could be one of the cheapest and highest-performance batteries out there, giving Tesla a massive technological advantage. But the reality of manufacturing them has kneecapped Musk’s plans, as they are currently underperforming and comparatively expensive due to massive manufacturing issues. Interestingly, 24M, an MIT spinoff company, used a completely different approach to create a high-performance battery that is cheaper than the 4680 and far easier to manufacture. So, how has 24M outdone Tesla? And will this threaten Tesla’s success?
> 
> Tesla’s approach to design is very basic but ruthlessly efficient. Step one: Simplify the design by reducing the number of components. Step two: Make assembly processes quicker with fewer steps. Step three: Double down on high-value features, such as high-resolution screens, self-driving systems, efficiency, or high-speed charging, and not-so-valued features, like material quality, colour choices, or trim choices. This process gives Tesla a product that costs far less to manufacture but is valued highly by customers, allowing them to charge more per vehicle and have astonishingly high profit margins. Tesla then uses this massive amount of profit to fund its rapid expansion.
> 
> ...



I guess we will have to wait to see what comes out of the newly licensed giga factories of VW, Lucas TVS and FREYR.
As we say round here, the jury is still out.
Mick


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## sptrawler (7 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> If one can believe rhe sales spiel, MIT may have made a lot of existing batteries, whether they be BYD blade or Teslas 4680, somewhat obsolete.
> From Some bloke called Will Locket
> 
> I guess we will have to wait to see what comes out of the newly licensed giga factories of VW, Lucas TVS and FREYR.
> ...



You also have the CATYL Qilin blade battery, interesting times, keep an eye on the materials.
Nothing much is changing, just how much you can shove in a box and keep it cool. 🤣









						CATL's groundbreaking Qilin battery pack promises a 621-mile range for EVs
					

CATL's new generation battery will not only address range anxieties but also charging rate worries that potential EV owners may have




					interestingengineering.com


----------



## sptrawler (8 December 2022)

Another article on the CATYL battery.









						Hyundai and Kia electric cars with 1000km range possible thanks to new battery deal
					

Chinese giant CATL looks set to supply Hyundai and Kia electric cars with batteries from next year.




					www.drive.com.au


----------



## qldfrog (8 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> Another article on the CATYL battery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I mentioned that a while back: but probably shut from the many active posters here.things are moving indeed,issue remains of reliance on lithium.i hope for the current buyers that these tech will be backward compatible in rhe form of adaptation kit.
At present time,systems and so whole cars are closely integrated with batteries in the absence of standards so it is not tomorrow your new Tesla battery will not be a Tesla one


----------



## mullokintyre (8 December 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I mentioned that a while back: but probably shut from the many active posters here.things are moving indeed,issue remains of reliance on lithium.i hope for the current buyers that these tech will be backward compatible in rhe form of adaptation kit.
> At present time,systems and so whole cars are closely integrated with batteries in the absence of standards so it is not tomorrow your new Tesla battery will not be a Tesla one



There is around 80KGS of copper in a Tesla model 3 versus about 63 kg of lithium.
I would be more concerned about Copper than lithium. No matter what material is used in batteries, copper will always be used.
One of the reasons that EV's are moving to ever higher DC voltages is that the higher the voltage , the lower the current to produce the same level of power. Lower current means less thick copper wires and bus bars, meaning less cost and just as important, less weight.
The backward compatibility issues will be solved by non OEM third party business opportunities for replacement batteries. 
By the time most EV's need a new battery pack, there will be no warranty left in the vehicle, so third parties will be able to do whatever they can to make it commercially attractive. There will always be a trade in for battery packs - the fact that the batteries only hold say 70% of their original capacity does not mean they will be scrapped. 
There is already a steady aftermarket for second hand EV battery packs, some used in  original ICE to EV conversoons, some used as residential emergency storage, some will be used in the  remote EV /solar charging stations that will eventually pop up. The possibilities are endless.
Mick


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## sptrawler (8 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> The backward compatibility issues will be solved by non OEM third party business opportunities for replacement batteries.
> By the time most EV's need a new battery pack, there will be no warranty left in the vehicle, so third parties will be able to do whatever they can to make it commercially attractive. There will always be a trade in for battery packs - the fact that the batteries only hold say 70% of their original capacity does not mean they will be scrapped.
> There is already a steady aftermarket for second hand EV battery packs, some used in  original ICE to EV conversoons, some used as residential emergency storage, some will be used in the  remote EV /solar charging stations that will eventually pop up. The possibilities are endless.
> Mick



And one of the reasons I bought the Kona, in five years time the whole E.V space will be completely different IMO, so the Kona will be going to the daughter. She only drives locally so range degradation wont be an issue and cosmetic parts are the same as for an ICE Kona so she should be able to keep it on the road for a relatively cheap cost, as she will never earn a high wage.
Everyone to their own.


----------



## JohnDe (8 December 2022)

qldfrog said:


> I mentioned that a while back: but probably shut from the many active posters here.things are moving indeed,issue remains of reliance on lithium.i hope for the current buyers that these tech will be backward compatible in rhe form of adaptation kit.
> At present time,systems and so whole cars are closely integrated with batteries in the absence of standards so it is not tomorrow your new Tesla battery will not be a Tesla one




Sorry, this year has been extremely busy for me, and I think I am suffering from brain fog. Could you please clarify what you are saying and explain the point of it.

I think you said 


'I told everyone about 1000km battery range, and I was shut down for it by forum members that post a lot'
'Tech is changing, lithium is a problem, backward compatability issues will required adaption kits'
'EVs have a system that integrates with the battery, and with no standards there will be problems sourcing a battery pack and it may not be a Tesla battery'


----------



## SirRumpole (14 December 2022)

Calls for a national EV 'Authority'.









						Task force call to fuel electric cars
					

Australia is nearing a tipping point for electric vehicles but needs a national task force to ensure no area is left behind, a Sydney summit has heard.




					thenewdaily.com.au


----------



## qldfrog (14 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Calls for a national EV 'Authority'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah some more useless wind making group populated by mates' network and dropping report after report..at long last an opportunity for our green activists to partake in the pig trough feeding frenzy...can not wait...


----------



## mullokintyre (15 December 2022)

Took delivery of the BYD ATTO3 extended range today.
Not without its problems, the online nature of the execution leaves a little to be desired, we were orignally sent to the Dandenong dispatch centre only to find it was an hour and a half away in Brooklyn.
Notwithstanding that, the run through the features was very thorough, and the guy answered all technical questions.
Used half the rang getting home, during which it drove well, was very quiet (not surprising), and although the interior is at best "gaudy", it has comfortable seats and the aircon worked efficiently.
Biggest dissappointment is the lack of in car apple play, though there is supposed to be an update available "very soon" to fix that.
Its probably not the ideal car for us, but at a $16,00 changeover price, was good value.
I have no doubt that in three years when we will look at the next upgrade, the  EV world will be markedly different.
Looks like we will probably cancel the order for the Volvo.
Mick


----------



## Value Collector (15 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Took delivery of the BYD ATTO3 extended range today.
> Not without its problems, the online nature of the execution leaves a little to be desired, we were orignally sent to the Dandenong dispatch centre only to find it was an hour and a half away in Brooklyn.
> Notwithstanding that, the run through the features was very thorough, and the guy answered all technical questions.
> Used half the rang getting home, during which it drove well, was very quiet (not surprising), and although the interior is at best "gaudy", it has comfortable seats and the aircon worked efficiently.
> ...



Nice 👍🏼.

Keep us updated .


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## Belli (16 December 2022)

An interesting take on things EV


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## JohnDe (16 December 2022)

Belli said:


> An interesting take on things EV





In your own words, why is it interesting?


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## mullokintyre (18 December 2022)

Went to the Big smoke for the weekend and took the BYD for its first big run of about 450kms.
Things I learned:
1. A lot of the charging stations require you to bring your own type 2 to type 2 cable. I had ordered one, but was not yet delivered.
really restricted our places to charge.
2. Running on the relatively flat freeway at 110 kmh chews into the range a fair bit.
3. Need to be very careful with speed management as we will get caught speeding very easily - the speed is deceptive.
3. On the way back, came via the Melba highway thru Yea to Seymour thru the winding  hills. 
Hilly country also reduces range. The plus side is the BYD  handles well, and I took a couple of turnes posted with an advisory 80 kmh speed at somehwta higher speeds, and it stuck to the road like it was on rails. Little front wheel drive  under/oversteering when you gun the accelerator mid curve. The low centre of gravity with all those batteries  under the floor produced very little body roll.
My wife had a turn and she described it as "fun", and thought it actually out performed her CX5.
The down sides are firstly, the cruise control is a bit finicky, not at all intuitive, but I guess we will get used to it.
Secondly, with all of the front  plumbing, wiring and control boxes open to the air, there is no "frunk" in the front of the car for storage wich seems a bit of a waste. 
Will be measuring it up and making something out of Carbon Fibre that I can attach to the frame to provide a little extra storage.
So, initially at least, we are both pretty pleased with the car, and look forward to a little more long term testing.
Mick


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## Value Collector (18 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Went to the Big smoke for the weekend and took the BYD for its first big run of about 450kms.
> Things I learned:
> 1. A lot of the charging stations require you to bring your own type 2 to type 2 cable. I had ordered one, but was not yet delivered.
> really restricted our places to charge.



That is one of the major benefits of Tesla, I do a lot of interstate driving and the Tesla supercharger network makes this a dream. if I had to rely on the other branded chargers I don't think it would be as enjoyable.

Are you used to regenerate braking yet? range can be extend quite a bit if you find a great balance between knowing when to accelerate vs coast vs regen.


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## mullokintyre (19 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> That is one of the major benefits of Tesla, I do a lot of interstate driving and the Tesla supercharger network makes this a dream. if I had to rely on the other branded chargers I don't think it would be as enjoyable.
> 
> Are you used to regenerate braking yet? range can be extend quite a bit if you find a great balance between knowing when to accelerate vs coast vs regen.



Tried the regen braking at different settings driving in traffic in the city. The max setting made it a little jerky, so went back to normal.
 It made  very little difference on freeway driving.
However, setting it to the max while driving through the hills was  really good, hardly had to use the disc brakes at all.
Was a lot of  fun to drive, but have no idea as to how much regen braking added to the  range.
Mick


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## Value Collector (19 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Tried the regen braking at different settings driving in traffic in the city. The max setting made it a little jerky, so went back to normal.
> It made  very little difference on freeway driving.
> However, setting it to the max while driving through the hills was  really good, hardly had to use the disc brakes at all.
> Was a lot of  fun to drive, but have no idea as to how much regen braking added to the  range.
> Mick



Yep, most people find regen to be jerky at first, but once you get the hang of it it becomes smooth.

(At atleast that’s how I find it with the Tesla because it’s interstates with the foot pedal, I am. It sure how the BYD uses it)


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## JohnDe (22 December 2022)

> While rising petrol prices are accelerating the transition to electric vehicles in many overseas countries, Australia remains stuck in the slow lane.
> 
> The Albanese government has introduced tax breaks intended to make EVs more affordable, but drivers who have already made the switch say the nation needs to do more to embrace the electric revolution. Nadia Daly reports.


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## rederob (23 December 2022)

9 weeks of Atto 3 ownership and it’s a joy to drive. So here’s my pre-Christmas snapshot:

Originally played around with its 3 driving modes – ECO, Normal and Sport – to see how they went, but now keep it in “Sport” as it just took a bit of time to get used to the accelerator’s sensitivity. After nearly 2000 km I average almost 15kW/100km so would get 400km range on the theoretical worst setting. That average has included several trips across the border on the M1 to get to surf beaches – roughly 300km round trips – and the rest pretty much suburban driving using the M1 as an artery.

As I haven’t yet driven far enough on a single trip to warrant using a commercial charger, I worked out that it costs $45 for 1000km plugged into a household powerpoint on our electricity plan. Our local supermarket has 2 free-to-use A/C powerpoints in dedicated EV bays, so each week I get 6-8kW for nix while I shop.

Regen braking has only 2 settings, and both are relatively soft, so one pedal driving is not on. However, it seems BYD has deliberately made this “feel” like driving an ICEV, so the crossover is only really noticeable due to its silence. Almost forgot to mention how the brakes were very “grabby” to begin with but, like with the accelerator, after a few weeks you get used to its sensitivity.

Comfortably fits 3 surfboards and 3 adults, and also fitted in 2x2.4metre wardrobe flatpacks from Ikea without a problem. Backseat passengers have been impressed with the comfort and legroom.

Visited AliExpress for some optional extras, including mats, mudguards (probably not good for aerodynamics, but economy still is pretty good), door-edge buffers, and a console tidy. The Atto 3’s console is way too deep, so the custom-made console tidy sits as a cover, allowing decent sized items to be stored (“hidden”) underneath it. Also picked up boot liners from Aldi really cheap and cut them to size.

Cruise control has a few tricks to it. I press “set” then immediately use the scroll-down knob left of it when I want to cruise at a particular speed. This knob is scrolled up or down to adjust speeds higher or lower and uses 5kph increments, which caught me out a few times as I expected smaller increments. The adaptive cruise control settings are great for heavy highway traffic and let you adjust the “gap” to whatever you feel comfortable with. There are additional settings for lane-keeping etc, but after a few weeks driving I turned everything off except cruise control as the “alerts” can get annoying. Unless you want to go deaf, hands free driving is possible but impossible due to the emergency alert going beserk!

As I haven’t yet driven far enough on a single trip to use a commercial charger, I worked out that it costs $45 for 1000km plugged into a household powerpoint on our electricity plan. Our local supermarket has 2 free-to-use A/C powerpoints in dedicated EV bays, so each week I get 6-8kW for nix while shopping. Those dedicated undercover EV bays have been a real blessing in recent weeks as other cars drive in circles looking for a parking spot.

My favourite feature is the “voice command” that allows lots of functions to be performed while never having your hands leave the wheel or eyes leave the road. The Android style screen provides more settings than you can poke a stick at, although Apple Car Play isn’t yet available However, if you have an iPhone you can run it and there’s a YouTube “cheat” that lets you install any app you want. I use YouTube Music or Spotify when I am not otherwise glued to ABC News Radio. The many cameras give excellent definition, and along with 3D function make shopping centre parking in particular a heck of a lot safer.

I’m sure Tesla’s have more features, but the Atto 3 already has more than I need, so spending another $20k wasn’t a consideration.


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## wayneL (23 December 2022)

Mater Dei!!!!! 😲


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## Value Collector (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Mater Dei!!!!! 😲
> 
> View attachment 150876




Only 70,000 km should be covered by warranty. Maybe another good reason to steer clear of GM.


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## Value Collector (23 December 2022)

wayneL said:


> Mater Dei!!!!! 😲
> 
> View attachment 150876



I just did some research apparently that is a rare case, the Volt batteries. Normally cost between $2000 and $8000 depending on size and year model.

However that is a 2012, which is a battery type that was not standardised and has been discontinued, so the quote for replacement was crazy pricing.

Definitely not a usual price.









						Is This Estimate for a Chevy Volt Hybrid Battery Replacement Real?
					

According to a viral picture, an estimate for Roger Dean Chevrolet showed a price of nearly $30,000 to replace a hybrid battery on a Chevy Volt.




					www.snopes.com


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## JohnDe (24 December 2022)

Merry Christmas to all,


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## Value Collector (25 December 2022)

Belli said:


> An interesting take on things EV




Every time I have ever watched one of that guys videos I have regretted it, this time was no different.


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## Value Collector (26 December 2022)

JohnDe said:


> Merry Christmas to all,




I just did a bit off math, converting his energy savings numbers from gallons and miles into litres and kms, and into Australian petrol prices based on $1.5 litre petrol.

Basically, he was sayings it’s not worth a petrol car utilising the energy savings these tires have because it would only save 0.8 gallons per 200 miles.

But that’s a $1,400 saving over the life of the tire, I imagine the tires are more expensive than standard tyres, but surely that saving would go along way to pay for the tyres. You then would have the noise reduction and longer tire life as free benefits.

When it comes to the energy saving based on cost of electricity, it’s much narrower, to the point the tyres break even with standard tyres, but again the other benefits are free eg extended range, lower noise and longer life.


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## sptrawler (29 December 2022)

People in South Australia can apply to be part of the vehicle to grid (V2G) tests.









						Electric cars to power South Australian homes in new trial
					

South Australia has become the first jurisdiction to allow private electric-car owners to send their battery’s energy back into their homes.




					www.drive.com.au
				




Electricity provider South Australia Power Networks (SAPN) has launched a trial in which the state's electric-car owners can apply for a bi-directional charger, provided the car is equipped with vehicle-to-grid (V2G) or vehicle-to-home (V2H) capabilities.
To obtain a Wallbox Quasar bi-directional charger, South Australian residents must apply to take part in the SAPN trial. 
If approved, they will be eligible to purchase the charger from Australian firm JetCharge for about $10,000, excluding installation costs.
In Australia, V2G is currently available in only three vehicles: the Nissan Leaf electric car, plus Mitsubishi’s Outlander and Eclipse Cross plug-in hybrids (PHEV) – all of which are fitted with the Japanese ‘CHAdeMO’ charging connector. 
According to JetCharge, the Wallbox Quasar is pending approval to be used in Australia outside of the SAPN trial, although it has previously been trialled in the nation’s capital.
In June 2020, a fleet of 51 Nissan Leafs was distributed to the Australian Capital Territory’s energy provider, ActewAGL, and the local government. 
The $6.59 million trial – named Realising Electric Vehicle-to-grid Services (REVS) – has been funded in part by the Federal Government’s Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA). 
A May 2022 report on the REVS trail found the bi-directional charger was initially not certified to Australian standards, resulting in the project being delayed significantly as the Wallbox Quasar underwent the necessary hardware and software changes to be complied with local regulations.
The full results of the REVS trial are due to be published after its conclusion in March 2023.


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## sptrawler (29 December 2022)

Hyundai get serious and produce something for the rev heads among us.









						2022 Hyundai Ioniq 6 RN22e concept: Australian track test
					

The RN22e is a race car-styled preview of Hyundai N’s first electric sedan after the Ioniq 5 N hatch.




					www.drive.com.au
				



Power comes from *two electric motors* – one on each axle, developing 160kW up front and 270kW at the rear – for combined outputs of *430kW* and *740Nm*.

It is *all-wheel drive*, has a claimed top speed of more than 250km/h, and stores its energy in a *77.4kWh* battery pack derived from other models that share the Hyundai-Kia group’s E-GMP electric platform.
To appeal to performance-car fans switching from petrol to electric power – who may be concerned about the lack of noise and driver engagement – Hyundai N has implemented an external speaker system that projects a deep rumble when the car is moving, and can even be ‘revved’ like a petrol car when parked in neutral.
The RN22e also debuts a ‘virtual gearshift’ feature, which combines hardware in the electric motors with clever software to simulate an i30 N hatchback’s eight-speed dual-clutch automatic transmission.  
Drivers who don’t like this system will be able to turn it off, so the car drives like a single-speed electric car.
Hyundai says this technology is headed for production, starting with next year’s Ioniq 5 N.
But with the big battery pack comes weight. Hyundai won’t reveal how heavy the RN22e is, but a standard dual-motor Ioniq 6 electric car weighs more than two tonnes – and the wider body panels on the concept are likely to cancel out any weight loss from the stripped-out interior.
This is a big car – at 4.9 metres long and more than two metres wide, it’s about 60cm longer and 20cm broader than a Hyundai i30 N hatchback. Its footprint on the road is not much smaller than a Toyota LandCruiser’s.
The simulated engine sound was surprisingly convincing. A deep note blends hints of a V8 engine with the electric motor’s whine, rather than the spaceship-style noise of other electric cars.
The party piece of the whole driving experience is the virtual gearshift system (also referred to as ‘N e-shift’). It might sound like a gimmick on paper (and to an extent, it is, given it makes the car slower), but after experiencing it we can see the merit in it.


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## mullokintyre (29 December 2022)

sptrawler said:


> People in South Australia can apply to be part of the vehicle to grid (V2G) tests.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What incentive, if any at all, is there for anyone to take part in this trial?
Fork out $10,000 plus installation costs  for something that only works one one pure EV?
Why not just install a battery pack to do the same thing?
Does the owner have any control over when the output  is taken from the car? be a bit awkward if you left your car plugged in with  60% battery and came out to find you were down to 20% but needed at leat 30 to do your trip.
I woiuld think that this study will struggle.
The subset of EV owners who fit the all criteria and are willing to fork out the 10k+ is minute.
Mick


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## sptrawler (29 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> What incentive, if any at all, is there for anyone to take part in this trial?
> Fork out $10,000 plus installation costs  for something that only works one one pure EV?
> Why not just install a battery pack to do the same thing?
> Does the owner have any control over when the output  is taken from the car? be a bit awkward if you left your car plugged in with  60% battery and came out to find you were down to 20% but needed at leat 30 to do your trip.
> ...



Plus the fact your battery is getting cycled, how will that affect the longevity and indeed warranty? There is a lot of variable with the V2G issue IMO. V2H I can understand, it gives you a degree of control, but V2G I'm not as sure about.


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## mullokintyre (29 December 2022)

A small problem that may scale up to a big problem.
From  The Evil murdoch press


> Australian Tesla drivers returning from Christmas holidays were caught in 90 minute queues just to be able to use a charging port in regional Australia this week.
> Footage of massive lines at a charging station on the Victorian border city of Wodonga has prompted calls for more stations to be built in regional areas in a bid to ensure everyone can get home safely.
> 
> ABC journalist Phil Williams was caught in the chaos, taking to Twitter to vent his frustration.
> ...



Way back in post #3781 i tried to introduce the concept of scalability and the issues surrounding it, but  it kinda fell on deaf ears.
Scalability is a real problem, and the instances outlined above highlight just how the unintended consequences often rear their ugly heads when one tries to scale up a small form engineering solution.
The issue will not be going away anytime soon.
Mick


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## Value Collector (29 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> A small problem that may scale up to a big problem.
> From  The Evil murdoch press
> 
> Way back in post #3781 i tried to introduce the concept of scalability and the issues surrounding it, but  it kinda fell on deaf ears.
> ...





mullokintyre said:


> A small problem that may scale up to a big problem.
> From  The Evil murdoch press
> 
> Way back in post #3781 i tried to introduce the concept of scalability and the issues surrounding it, but  it kinda fell on deaf ears.
> ...



These are just growing pains, Tesla chargers scale up quite well, look at these monsters, c couple of these big charging locations between Sydney and Melbourne would solve the issue.

Or as you can see in the other photo in the USA Tesla has these mobile charging stations they can roll out for the holiday period to areas that need extra capacity.


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## Value Collector (29 December 2022)

Check out this supercharger station.

Fast forward to the 1min mark


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## mullokintyre (29 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> These are just growing pains, Tesla chargers scale up quite well, look at these monsters, c couple of these big charging locations between Sydney and Melbourne would solve the issue.
> 
> Or as you can see in the other photo in the USA Tesla has these mobile charging stations they can roll out for the holiday period to areas that need extra capacity.
> 
> ...



Great that they built them in the USA.
But the problems are in Wodonga and  Coffs harbour.
What has been built so afr has  got to be scaled by a a couple of orders of magnitude or things will get even messier.
And notwithstanding what they have built in the USA, its going to create problems here in OZ.
They are going to need some serious industrial supply to run  large scale numbers of fast DC chargers.
They are going to have to be sited  close to some high voltage  transmission lines.
As you drive up the Hume, notice where many of the  existing servos are placed.
Often  in more remote sections where space is not at a premium, but where a there is probably a 400V 3 phase supply.
Ya can't just stick these things anywhere.
Mick


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## Value Collector (29 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Great that they built them in the USA.
> But the problems are in Wodonga and  Coffs harbour.
> What has been built so afr has  got to be scaled by a a couple of orders of magnitude or things will get even messier.
> And notwithstanding what they have built in the USA, its going to create problems here in OZ.
> ...



It’s just a simple supply following demand thing, they will build more supply as demand grows, of course there will be teething issues around peak demand holiday time for a little while though.

As for having the electricity supply, the way they do it in the USA is to have the charging station backed up by batteries, so all 40 chargers can run at peak capacity by taking the available supply off the grid, supplemented by batteries and solar.

If there is enough electricity supply to run a service station, you can run a charging station that has batteries integrated.


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## qldfrog (30 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Great that they built them in the USA.
> But the problems are in Wodonga and  Coffs harbour.
> What has been built so afr has  got to be scaled by a a couple of orders of magnitude or things will get even messier.
> And notwithstanding what they have built in the USA, its going to create problems here in OZ.
> ...



You can, as they do already, huge diesel generators so that the wxnkers can feel good driving EV to save the planet.
Does anyone remember the scam of the fluo bulbs, the government incentives etc etc
Results: 
So called longuer life  of these bulbs was never achieved, we switched on and staid in darkness for 3 minutes, and our dumps and air got an extra does of mercury? Or is it cyanide? Forgot.but highly dangerous when broken..with no recycling in place.
I still intend to get an ev as soon as we move in the final house, but no illusion:
The EVs move is the fluo bulb of 2022, coupled with social engineering and removal of one of the basic human freedom: freedom of movement


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## Boggo (30 December 2022)

Interesting ?


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## Value Collector (30 December 2022)

qldfrog said:


> You can, as they do already, huge diesel generators so that the wxnkers can feel good driving EV to save the planet.
> Does anyone remember the scam of the fluo bulbs, the government incentives etc etc
> Results:
> So called longuer life  of these bulbs was never achieved, we switched on and staid in darkness for 3 minutes, and our dumps and air got an extra does of mercury? Or is it cyanide? Forgot.but highly dangerous when broken..with no recycling in place.
> ...



What are you talking about?
I didn’t see any diesel generators at those Tesla locations, only solar panels, batteries and a grid connection.

However, if a remote charging station did have a back up diesel generator that backed up the solar and batteries. that would still reduce the need for diesel by a lot.

Remember something doesn’t have to be perfect to be better.


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## Value Collector (30 December 2022)

Boggo said:


> Interesting ?
> 
> View attachment 151035



What is interesting?


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## SirRumpole (30 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> What is interesting?




Considering the relatively small number of Teslas in the country, and how hard they are to get, and that they would be relatively new the fact that a lot of owners want to get rid of them is interesting.

Are they trading in on a new Tesla or is something wrong with the vehicle ?


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## mullokintyre (30 December 2022)

Boggo said:


> Interesting ?
> 
> View attachment 151035



In marketing parlance, there are three types of market.
1. The early adoptees -the disciples of a product. Go out to all and sundry singing its praises, will brook no wrong.
2. the risk takers - this group are willing to take a risk on a product, believing the bnefit will outweigh the risk.
3. Everyone else.
 The marketeers don't really have to market to the first two groups, these two groups will do the marketing for them.
Its that third group, by far the biggest, that the marketeers have to convince.
We have generally filled the needs of the first two groups in terms of EV's.
The rest will be somewhat harder.
There will be price points to be overcome, fears, both  justified and unfounded to be overcome, as well as inherent biases to be overcome.

Mick


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## Value Collector (30 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> Considering the relatively small number of Teslas in the country, and how hard they are to get, and that they would be relatively new the fact that a lot of owners want to get rid of them is interesting.
> 
> Are they trading in on a new Tesla or is something wrong with the vehicle ?



Small amount? It’s not 2019 anymore they are every where you look in Brisbane now. 

With the model 3 being leased over 3 years ago now in australia, many people that replace their cars every 2-3 years especially those that lease will be due to swap their cars out, especially because a lot of people are upgrading to the model y now.


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## Value Collector (30 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> In marketing parlance, there are three types of market.
> 1. The early adoptees -the disciples of a product. Go out to all and sundry singing its praises, will brook no wrong.
> 2. the risk takers - this group are willing to take a risk on a product, believing the bnefit will outweigh the risk.
> 3. Everyone else.
> ...



What marketing do Tesla do? Do you ever see a Tesla advert any where? They don’t really market at all, yet their sales keep growing, what does that say?


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## mullokintyre (30 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Do you ever see a Tesla ad any where? They don’t really market at all, yet their sales keep growing, what does that say?



it tells me that there are more than a few people in group 1 (without trying to be rude, i would count you in that group), there are plenty more in the second group (I count myself as one of them, though I bought a BYD rather than a Tesla ) who may still have their orders in.
Mick


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## SirRumpole (30 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Small amount? It’s not 2019 anymore they are every where you look in Brisbane now.
> 
> With the model 3 being leased over 3 years ago now in australia, many people that replace their cars every 2-3 years especially those that lease will be due to swap their cars out, especially because a lot of people are upgrading to the model y now.
> 
> View attachment 151040



There aren't all that many really, even given 2020 figures.









						Teslas by postcode: Where EVs are most popular in Australia - EV Central
					

Teslas are popular in NSW and Queensland, but it's Canberra that has more of the Californian-made EVs than anywhere else. As for Victoria...




					evcentral.com.au
				




You probably notice them more because you have one.

I only saw < 5 in Melbourne.


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## Value Collector (30 December 2022)

SirRumpole said:


> There aren't all that many really, even given 2020 figures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was in Melbourne recently and I think I saw more than 5 in the time it took me to eat a Daniels Donut walking down Collins st, Hahaha.

Maybe you aren’t noticing them all.


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## Value Collector (30 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> it tells me that there are more than a few people in group 1 (without trying to be rude, i would count you in that group), there are plenty more in the second group (I count myself as one of them, though I bought a BYD rather than a Tesla ) who may still have their orders in.
> Mick



Group 1 and 2 must be huge if it’s allowing them to outsell Toyota passenger cars, even though they are more expensive and don’t advertise. 

I am probably in group 1, I openly told friends and family 15years ago I wouldn’t replace my old 1997 VT commodore until an electric car was available and that was before Tesla was even a thing. 

But I have had lots of people who you would consider to be group 3 ride in my car, and they love it, and have all said if it wasn’t for price they would get one.

The benefits to the mainstream consumer are huge, this is what will drive sales.


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## mullokintyre (30 December 2022)

Value Collector said:


> Group 1 and 2 must be huge if it’s allowing them to outsell Toyota passenger cars, even though they are more expensive and don’t advertise.



Group 1 and 2 fit into the top end of the market - they tend to be wealthy enough to buy what they want, when they want.
Nothwithstanding that, from performance Drive  comes the November sales figures from VFACTS.


The humble Toyota corrolla outsold the tesla Model Y  by about 3 to 1.
One has to assume from this that the Model 3 sales were  less than 1805.
I am not sure where you got the figures for the comparison of the Mdel 3's versus Camrys. perhaps it was another month.
But from the same article quoting the VFACTS sales,


At least for November,  there were nearly twice as many Camry's sold as  Model 3's.
Mick


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## Value Collector (30 December 2022)

mullokintyre said:


> Group 1 and 2 fit into the top end of the market - they tend to be wealthy enough to buy what they want, when they want.
> Nothwithstanding that, from performance Drive  comes the November sales figures from VFACTS.
> View attachment 151044
> 
> ...




Model 3 normally outsells the model Y as shown in the august numbers, but covid lockdowns a few months ago probably affect recent numbers.

The corolla sales were also triple what they were a month before, so that might be an aberration, also the corolla is a much cheaper car, you would expect the cheaper cars to easily out sell the more expensive teslas every month, but they don’t seem to.

How much does Toyota spend on marketing? In business to some extent it’s easy to “buy” sales through advertising, but if a product sells without advertising that’s a good sign.


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## JohnDe (30 December 2022)

qldfrog said:


> You can, as they do already, huge diesel generators so that the wxnkers can feel good driving EV to save the planet.
> Does anyone remember the scam of the fluo bulbs, the government incentives etc etc
> Results:
> So called longuer life  of these bulbs was never achieved, we switched on and staid in darkness for 3 minutes, and our dumps and air got an extra does of mercury? Or is it cyanide? Forgot.but highly dangerous when broken..with no recycling in place.
> ...




I feel better about the savings I have accumulated, and directed towards my investment portfolio 🤓

Below is my EVs power usage & equivalent petrol savings for 2022, this includes interstate travel & a lot of back & forward to my coastal investment.


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## JohnDe (30 December 2022)

Boggo said:


> Interesting ?
> 
> View attachment 151035




A couple of current listings on Carsales -







And if you order new from Tesla -












						Design Your Model 3 | Tesla
					

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.




					www.tesla.com


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## JohnDe (31 December 2022)

BYD ATTO 3 USING WAZE NAV ON APPLE CARPLAY FIRST DRIVE IN AUSTRALIA​



2023 BYD ATTO 3 APPLE CARPLAY WALKTHROUGH AND FIRST LOOK IN AUSTRALIA​


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## JohnDe (4 January 2023)




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## rcw1 (4 January 2023)

JohnDe
1 outa 2 ordered Tesla 3's have arrived in Brisbavus.  Being sent north soon.
They will be company cars driven by son's, rcw1 gets to keep his scooter ha ha ha ha

Have a good one JohnDe.

Kind regards
rcw1


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## sptrawler (4 January 2023)

State of play with E.V battery materials.









						Three cathode chemistries to dominate $430bln-Li-ion market – report
					

According to IDTechEx, NMC, NCA, and LFP will continue to be the dominant cathode materials at least until 2033.




					www.mining.com


----------



## sptrawler (5 January 2023)

A pretty good advert for the safety of a Tesla IMO









						California man under arrest for attempted murder after police say he allegedly intentionally drove off a cliff with 1 woman and 2 children in car | CNN
					

A 41-year-old California man was placed under arrest Tuesday on multiple charges after he allegedly intended to drive off a cliff on the Pacific Coast Highway with three passengers in the car, authorities said.




					edition.cnn.com


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## qldfrog (5 January 2023)

sptrawler said:


> A pretty good advert for the safety of a Tesla IMO
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not so good for the lane keeping system, the emergency brake,etc.
And as a jury,it was a Tesla,who can be sure wo doubt that the car had not be hacked and remotely send off the road....
100% sure?.... interesting i think...


----------



## Value Collector (5 January 2023)

qldfrog said:


> Not so good for the lane keeping system, the emergency brake,etc.
> And as a jury,it was a Tesla,who can be sure wo doubt that the car had not be hacked and remotely send off the road....
> 100% sure?.... interesting i think...



How is this not good for the lane keeping system or emergency brake???

Just to be clear, the emergency does not work if you have your foot on the acceleration.

And the lane keeping doesn’t stop you from purposely steering off the road.

If you are going to dangerously leave the road, the lane departure avoidance beeps and provides slight steering resistance, but doesn’t stop you over powering it.

Same with the emergency brake, if you press on the acceleration it over rides it.

But @sptrawler is right this is a great example of Tesla structural safety


----------



## mullokintyre (5 January 2023)

mullokintyre said:


> A small problem that may scale up to a big problem.
> From  The Evil murdoch press
> 
> Way back in post #3781 i tried to introduce the concept of scalability and the issues surrounding it, but  it kinda fell on deaf ears.
> ...



Peter Zeihan has just release a video on why the scalability issue is a big one for EV's.
He also brings a few other issues as well in terms of "green".
Mick


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## sptrawler (Monday at 10:10 AM)

As is the way today, it isn't what people say, it is what they don't say, because they will be trashed. 🤣 
Meanwhile the ranters run amok.









						Toyota boss says other industry executives secretly doubt the switch to electric power
					

Toyota chief believes other motor industry executive share his doubts about a fully battery electric future.




					www.drive.com.au
				




The head of the world's largest automaker, Toyota, has again questioned plans for a complete switch to solely electric cars – and believes he is not alone.
Akio Toyoda, president and CEO of the Toyota Motor Corporation, has continued his call for more diversity in future automotive fuels as he promotes a potential role for hydrogen and biofuels.
“Frankly, (electric vehicles) are not the only way to achieve the world's carbon neutrality goals,” said Mr Toyoda.
He said he believes consumers and carmakers also have doubts a total changeover, but are reluctant to speak out.
“That silent majority is wondering whether EVs are really OK to have as a single option,” he said, according to _The Wall Street Journal._
“But they think it's the trend so they can't speak out loudly.”
“Personally, I would rather pursue every option, not just one option, such as emission-free synthetic fuels and hydrogen. I still believe hydrogen is as promising a technology for our future as BEV,” said Mr Toyoda.
“Let me correctly explain Toyota’s position. I would like you to think of Toyota as a department store offering every available powertrain.
“I am often criticised in the press because I won't declare that the automotive industry should commit 100 per cent to (solely electric vehicles).
“Because, just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now, I think (electric vehicles) are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.”


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## mullokintyre (Monday at 1:40 PM)

According to Nikkei Asia  , India has overtaken Japan as the Third biggest market for new car sales after China  and the US, as no 1 and 2 respectively.


> TOKYO/NEW DELHI -- India eclipsed Japan in auto sales last year, according to the latest industry data, making it the third-largest auto market for the first time.
> 
> India's sales of new vehicles totaled at least 4.25 million units, based on preliminary results, topping the 4.2 million sold in Japan.
> 
> ...



Unlike most other markets,  EV's have not made big inroads into the Indian market.


> > Vehicles powered by gasoline, including hybrid vehicles, accounted for most of the new autos sold in India last year. Electric vehicles hardly have a presence. Autos for the Indian market are seen having fewer semiconductors than those sold in advanced economies.
> 
> 
> 
> Only 8.5% of Indian households owned a passenger vehicle in 2021, according to British research firm Euromonitor, meaning there is plenty of room for sales growth. The government has started offering subsidies for EVs amid a trade deficit resulting from petroleum imports.



One of the factors that may limit the uptake of EV's  is that  fossil fuels produce about 75% of electricity, the majority of which is  used in industry according to Indian Energy .
So even if the uptake of EV's were increase dramtically,  it will be unlikey to reduce CO2 emissions much.
Added to that is this from  Statista


> The western region in India had the highest amount of electricity transmission losses in financial year 2020, at about 9.1 thousand gigawatt hours. Nearly 20 percent of India's electricity generation is lost during its transmission.



The transmission of power needs to be modernised to cope with increasing demand.
There is varying degrees of the measure of how many households have access to the electricity grid. 
According to Times of India,  17% of Rural households have no9 connection, although this figure maybe higher,  as the government counts a village or region  as being 100% connected if there is a supply to the village , with at leat one household connected to the grid.
given this, it is probably no great surprise that the uptake of EV's is small, as the ability to charge them quickly is at best problematic.
Mick


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## qldfrog (Monday at 2:03 PM)

mullokintyre said:


> According to Nikkei Asia  , India has overtaken Japan as the Third biggest market for new car sales after China  and the US, as no 1 and 2 respectively.
> 
> Unlike most other markets,  EV's have not made big inroads into the Indian market.
> 
> ...



EV debate can be summarised as
Reality is a b•tch😁


----------



## sptrawler (Monday at 6:57 PM)

The proposed RAM E.V sounds interesting.


			https://www.heraldsun.com.au/motoring/motoring-news/ram-unveils-ute-of-the-future/news-story/f0c506d73caa57d7763445a9d06d29c9
		


A more spacious cabin positioned further forward on the car’s body delivers seven-seat versatility, making it more attractive to families.
Tradies will appreciate “pass-through” storage for long objects that can be loaded into the tray, before running through the interior of the car, into the under-bonnet “frunk” where an engine would normally be found.

Ram says the car can accommodate 18-foot-long items with the tailgate closed.
Both ends of the concept car’s tray fold down, allowing easy access between the cabin and cargo bed.

Ram says the electric ute will go into production in 2024, but hasn’t revealed technical details surrounding its powertrain.

Next-gen tech in Ram’s electric ute includes headlights capable of project images onto walls, doors that unlock with facial recognition and a semi-autonomous self-driving systems that work when the driver is outside the car.

For example, someone working on a roadside construction site could have the car follow them at walking pace while they fetch traffic cones out of the tray.


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## Value Collector (Monday at 7:13 PM)

sptrawler said:


> As is the way today, it isn't what people say, it is what they don't say, because they will be trashed. 🤣
> Meanwhile the ranters run amok.
> 
> 
> ...



I think there will be a role for hydrogen in some way, but as for passenger cars, I don’t think many people who have had EV’s for a while will want to begin attending petrol stations again.


----------



## sptrawler (Monday at 7:53 PM)

Value Collector said:


> I think there will be a role for hydrogen in some way, but as for passenger cars, I don’t think many people who have had EV’s for a while will want to begin attending petrol stations again.



Yes I agree, you would have to have a particular need, to want anything other than a BEV, if the BEV fulfills your driving needs.
I've found it suits us perfectly, but we are retired and aren't fully reliant on the car every day. 
I would hesitate to recommend it to someone who needs to do a lot of kilometres every day, I haven't been in that situation, so I really don't know how it would fare.


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## JohnDe (Monday at 10:11 PM)

Value Collector said:


> I think there will be a role for hydrogen in some way, but as for passenger cars, I don’t think many people who have had EV’s for a while will want to begin attending petrol stations again.




We have a long way to go before we see mass production on hydrogen vehicles. The biggest and most expensive pitfall to a hydrogen future is tank storage & safety.




> *Hydrogen Leakage: A Potential Risk for the Hydrogen Economy*
> 
> Hydrogen has been identified as a potential safety issue based on the fact that it is the smallest molecule that exists and can easily pass through materials.
> 
> ...






> *Hydrogen Storage Tanks: The Types, The Pitfalls, and the Solutions.*
> 
> Hydrogen Storage vessels are especially susceptible to embrittlement


----------



## JohnDe (Monday at 10:17 PM)

sptrawler said:


> Yes I agree, you would have to have a particular need, to want anything other than a BEV, if the BEV fulfills your driving needs.
> I've found it suits us perfectly, but we are retired and aren't fully reliant on the car every day.
> I would hesitate to recommend it to someone who needs to do a lot of kilometres every day, I haven't been in that situation, so I really don't know how it would fare.




Depends what you definition of "a lot of kilometres every day" is.

My wife uses our EV to travel back & forth from work everyday, plus run errands. We have a property on the coast about 175km away, which we drive to and the following day drive back for work and then back to the property on the coast. this has been going on since November 2022, so far no issues.

The biggest fear is fear itself.


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## Sdajii (Tuesday at 2:36 AM)

JohnDe said:


> Depends what you definition of "a lot of kilometres every day" is.
> 
> My wife uses our EV to travel back & forth from work everyday, plus run errands. We have a property on the coast about 175km away, which we drive to and the following day drive back for work and then back to the property on the coast. this has been going on since November 2022, so far no issues.
> 
> The biggest fear is fear itself.




That's not anything near any ball park I'd call 'a lot of kilometres every day'.

I often do over 1,000km in a day, I sometimes do 1,500km or more in a day. About a year ago I did just over 6,000km in just over 72 hours.

You don't have to get anywhere near what I do before an EV is completely out of the question. Compared to what I do, people who only make little trips around the corner make you look like you're only making little trips around the corner, and for those people, an EV is not a good option. For people who don't do more than about 300km in a day and can charge up in between drives it's lovely if they don't mind throwing a lot of money at the purchase price.

You only need your vehicle to be incapable of doing what you need it to do once or twice per year for it to be a big issue. For the majority of people (yourself being a good example by the sound of it) big or even medium drives aren't ever a thing, so an EV is great, but for plenty of people they just won't do what is required.

I'm currently in the Great Sandy Desert, I simply can not imagine how EVs could be practical for anyone in this region, and it would scarcely be possible at all to travel through where I am let alone do it practically - a quick check on maps says it's 610km between the nearest place you could charge a car to the west and east of here (unless you wanted to pay someone an insane amount to let them use a generator - I'm currently using electricity from a diesel generator for my laptop). I did see a couple of Teslas in Karratha last month which I thought was interesting, but I'm sure they were owned by very wealthy people (plenty of those out in these mining areas) who own multiple cars and the Tesla is a bit of a toy rather than anything practical. For most people who live in larger cities, sure, they're lovely.


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## Smurf1976 (Tuesday at 6:16 AM)

JohnDe said:


> Depends what you definition of "a lot of kilometres every day" is.



Furthest I've ever driven in one day is just on 1000km. Strangely enough that was in Tasmania.

Other than that, did 600 - 700 plenty of times touring around WA.

Adelaide - Melbourne is about 750km and have done that more than once with a ~half hour stop in the middle of the trip.

Not personally but I know someone who periodically does a daytrip to Broken Hill from Adelaide. It's about 500km each way.

I'm not arguing against EV's but widespread charging infrastructure will be required definitely.


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## JohnDe (Tuesday at 7:11 AM)

Smurf1976 said:


> Furthest I've ever driven in one day is just on 1000km. Strangely enough that was in Tasmania.
> 
> Other than that, did 600 - 700 plenty of times touring around WA.
> 
> ...




Adelaide to Melbourne is a regular trip for me. Successfully completed in our Tesla M3LR. Took 50 minutes longer than the same trip in my VF SSV Ute


----------



## JohnDe (Tuesday at 7:16 AM)

Sdajii said:


> That's not anything near any ball park I'd call 'a lot of kilometres every day'.
> 
> I often do over 1,000km in a day, I sometimes do 1,500km or more in a day. About a year ago I did just over 6,000km in just over 72 hours.
> 
> ...




You are in the 5% group of Australian’s that travel more than 600km nonstop in a day on a regular basis. The other 95% travel a lot less.

Your argument about distance between fuel stops is the same as the one for horse & cart salesman, back in the day when the automobile started to slowly come onto the scene.


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## Value Collector (Tuesday at 9:16 AM)

Smurf1976 said:


> Other than that, did 600 - 700 plenty of times touring around WA.
> 
> Adelaide - Melbourne is about 750km and have done that more than once with a ~half hour stop in the middle of the trip.
> 
> ...



I have driven from north of Brisbane to Sydney in the model 3 about 15 times which is about 1000 km, there is 8 Tesla super chargers between my house and Sydney, I only use 4 of them.

My Model 3 has the smallest battery of any Tesla, but the trip to Sydney is still easy. As I said there is 8 super chargers along the way, and I only need to use 4 of them, and at nine of them do I wait to fill to 100%.

I just start with a full battery charged at home, time my stops to around when I need a pee break or pick up lunch, and carry on my trip after about 15mins of charging, no need to wait for 100% because I know there is another charger 3 hours down the road if I need it, and by then either me or the wife will want a break for some reason.


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## sptrawler (Tuesday at 9:21 AM)

Sdajii said:


> That's not anything near any ball park I'd call 'a lot of kilometres every day'.
> 
> I often do over 1,000km in a day, I sometimes do 1,500km or more in a day. About a year ago I did just over 6,000km in just over 72 hours.
> 
> ...



I know where you are coming from, I worked for regional power station and village power supplies, 1,000k's in a day was pretty common.
Also overnight transport light trucks are constantly on the go, supplying bits and pieces all over the place 24/7.
When fast charging is readily available everywhere. who knows, but for the moment it is hard to beat a long range tank and a couple of jerries.
I guess with the whole E.V issue being new and game changing, there is an element of over expectation by one side and scepticism by the other, the end result will no doubt be some where between the two extremes.
I personally think the development of charging infrastructure should be driven by logics not emotion, but as with the NBN when politics become involved, common sense goes out the window.
IMO the focus should be on making it as easy as possible for people in the cities to use an E.V, that gets the maximum number of ICE cars off the road, for the minimum area requiring charger coverage.
With country areas, install a minimum number in as many places as possible, but make sure they are all ultra fast chargers, so that people who are travelling have to take up a minimum amount of time charging and holding up other travellers.
I think most country dwellers, will install their own solar panels and be mainly self sufficient regarding charging.
In the cities with multi story and high density living, charging infrastructure will have to be installed at street level and in high numbers.
As with the power generation industry, the answers will become obvious as time moves on, where it can be done and if it is practical renewable solar generation will be used, where it isn't it wont be.
As I said earlier, IMO it probably wont be a one size fits all outcome.


----------



## sptrawler (Tuesday at 9:52 AM)

Value Collector said:


> I have driven from north of Brisbane to Sydney in the model 3 about 15 times which is about 1000 km, there is 8 Tesla super chargers between my house and Sydney, I only use 4 of them.
> 
> My Model 3 has the smallest battery of any Tesla, but the trip to Sydney is still easy. As I said there is 8 super chargers along the way, and I only need to use 4 of them, and at nine of them do I wait to fill to 100%.
> 
> I just start with a full battery charged at home, time my stops to around when I need a pee break or pick up lunch, and carry on my trip after about 15mins of charging, no need to wait for 100% because I know there is another charger 3 hours down the road if I need it, and by then either me or the wife will want a break for some reason.



It is interesting with the Tesla model 3, a friend of mine picked up his in March 2022 and just did a trip from Perth to Albany return, he said the range he was getting driving conservatively and slip streaming wasn't as good as he expected.
From his experience, he thinks in summer in W.A he will be using 380-400k's as an expected safe range, how does that compare with your experience on the East coast @Value Collector .
Here is an interesting article on the very same subject, fortunately Australia in general, doesn't have the same climatic extremes some other countries do, but it does show there are limitation issues that require overcoming.








						Tesla fined over misleading claims about driving range in severe cold weather
					

Tesla has been fined for failing to tell its customers about the impact of cold weather on driving range.




					www.drive.com.au
				



From the article:
According to a report from news outlet _Reuters_, the Korea Fair Trade Commission (KFTC) will fine Tesla 2.85 billion won ($AU3.2 million) for failing to disclose its electric cars are subject to a diminished driving range in cold weather.
The KFTC says the driving range of Tesla models can drop by almost half of the brand's advertised range when used in cold weather.

Similarly, a 2020 study by Canadian company Geotab found car manufacturers' claimed driving range for an electric vehicle can drop by as much as 54 per cent at minus-15 degrees Celsius – with South Korea's capital Seoul often getting that cold in the winter month of January.
The same Canadian study also found hot weather can affect an electric car's driving range, dropping quickly as temperatures increase above 30 degrees Celsius.
At 40 degrees Celsius, the real-world driving range of electric car loses approximately 20 per cent of a manufacturer's claim, according to the Geotab study.


----------



## sptrawler (Tuesday at 10:38 AM)

JohnDe said:


> Adelaide to Melbourne is a regular trip for me. Successfully completed in our Tesla M3LR. Took 50 minutes longer than the same trip in my VF SSV Ute



You may well have been the only E.V on that run, on that particular day, what if there had been 2,000 E.V's doing that very same trip an that day?
The VF SSV would have taken the same time, even if the road was packed, because physically ATM it does take a lot less time to get the same amount of energy into the vehicle.
In the future that may all change, but ATM it is only due to the small number of E.V's and the fact that most are owned by people who generally don't depend on the vehicle, that it is all working o.k.
The next couple of years may well change the experience, with an overloaded electrical system, a rapid uptake of E.V's due to fuel prices and a ramping up of the supply of E.V's, the weak links in the system may well be highlighted IMO.


----------



## JohnDe (Tuesday at 10:57 AM)

sptrawler said:


> You may well have been the only E.V on that run, on that particular day, what if there had been 2,000 E.V's doing that very same trip an that day?
> The VF SSV would have taken the same time, even if the road was packed, because physically ATM it does take a lot less time to get the same amount of energy into the vehicle.
> In the future that may all change, but ATM it is only due to the small number of E.V's and the fact that most are owned by people who generally don't depend on the vehicle, that it is all working o.k.
> The next couple of years may well change the experience, with an overloaded electrical system, a rapid uptake of E.V's due to fuel prices and a ramping up of the supply of E.V's, the weak links in the system may well be highlighted IMO.




"what if there had been 2,000 E.V's doing that very same trip an that day?"

The exact same situation that would have occurred when the combustion engine carriage started to show up amongst the horses & their carriages. There were no fuelling stations, only entrepreneurial individuals with the idea to stock a flammable fuel for the futurists with their horseless carriages.


----------



## Sdajii (Tuesday at 10:59 AM)

It's an interesting situation. Most radical changes in what people buy or do are pushed in by consumers/users. Everyone bought smart phones because they wanted them and then because everyone wanted it, businesses started supplying wifi and charging stations etc. Everyone wants a new road or servo or airport or cafe so it then gets built, it generally happens 'naturally', but EVs are something the system is desperately trying to push consumers into and the infrastructure as well as the demand is being forced in artificially. Mandates to get rid of ICEs, installing charging stations to encourage people to use them (generally businesses react to an existing demand), telling people it's going to help their social standing if they buy an EV, financial subsidies, etc. Ironically this is happening at the same time as the government forces out cheap, reliable electricity and replaces it with more expensive and less reliable alternatives, definitely not ideal to do these at the same time, but it's all being forced through artificially so it will happen.


----------



## sptrawler (Tuesday at 11:18 AM)

Sdajii said:


> It's an interesting situation. Most radical changes in what people buy or do are pushed in by consumers/users. Everyone bought smart phones because they wanted them and then because everyone wanted it, businesses started supplying wifi and charging stations etc. Everyone wants a new road or servo or airport or cafe so it then gets built, it generally happens 'naturally', but EVs are something the system is desperately trying to push consumers into and the infrastructure as well as the demand is being forced in artificially. Mandates to get rid of ICEs, installing charging stations to encourage people to use them (generally businesses react to an existing demand), telling people it's going to help their social standing if they buy an EV, financial subsidies, etc. Ironically this is happening at the same time as the government forces out cheap, reliable electricity and replaces it with more expensive and less reliable alternatives, definitely not ideal to do these at the same time, but it's all being forced through artificially so it will happen.



Very true, there is a huge push worldwide to reduce carbon emissions, rightly or wrongly it is happening.
Whether it is causing atmospheric warming is a mute point IMO, the change to E.V's will continue regardless, it makes a lot of sense in high population density areas on health reasons alone. Add to that the fact an E.V is a much more practical and efficient drive system and electrical control systems are easily integrated into them, it becomes a no brainer. 
Then if you throw in the fact that there is a lot of money to be made be carrying out the transition, IMO it isn't if, it is only a question of the time frame.
I'm not confident that most people will actually have a car in years to come, I'm of the opinion that autonomous ride share will be the end game for the plebs and personal vehicle ownership will be the realm of the essential services and the wealthy.
Just my two cents worth.


----------



## sptrawler (Tuesday at 11:38 AM)

JohnDe said:


> "what if there had been 2,000 E.V's doing that very same trip an that day?"
> 
> The exact same situation that would have occurred when the combustion engine carriage started to show up amongst the horses & their carriages. There were no fuelling stations, only entrepreneurial individuals with the idea to stock a flammable fuel for the futurists with their horseless carriages.



Not really, because people back when cars were invented weren't anywhere near as transient as we are today, also the expectation and requirement to cover long distances in a short period of time wasn't there, so the adoption of the automobile was extremely gradual.
Add to that the fact that we are actually slowing down the process, whereas not only was the automobile starting from scratch, it was actually faster, could go further and didn't require constant food, water and sleep as the horse did.
So it isn't an apples for apples comparison.
We are now going from something that is already available, extremely effective and flexible, to a whole new system that for many ATM will cause a reduction in their perceived quality of life.
As you know I do have an E.V and I do love it, but I'm under no illusion, that it will suit everyone at this point in time.
Maybe down the track when there is sufficient infrastructure and E.V's all have rapid charging ability etc, but to think there wont be speed bumps along the way is a fallacy IMO.
We already have stretched electrical infrastructure, we are trying to rapidly replace generating infrastructure, if supply disruptions become the norm it will prove quite interesting.
As I have said, I'm sure that E.V's are a certainty, just not as certain as some that the early years are going to be all beer and party poppers.


----------



## Value Collector (Tuesday at 11:40 AM)

sptrawler said:


> It is interesting with the Tesla model 3, a friend of mine picked up his in March 2022 and just did a trip from Perth to Albany return, he said the range he was getting driving conservatively and slip streaming wasn't as good as he expected.
> From his experience, he thinks in summer in W.A he will be using 380-400k's as an expected safe range, how does that compare with your experience on the East coast @Value Collector .
> Here is an interesting article on the very same subject, fortunately Australia in general, doesn't have the same climatic extremes some other countries do, but it does show there are limitation issues that require overcoming.
> 
> ...



Mine would have a smaller battery than his, because they increased the battery range shortly after I bought mine.

The stated range of mine is 355km, but I can get more than that if I try, I have done over 400km before. 

I guess it depends on a lot, but in the east coast doing the Brisbane > Sydney > Melbourne route you don’t really need to think about it, you just stop and charge when it says to charge and it finds the places to charge for you.

I haven’t ever had to worry about not having enough charge, so they guys with the newer cars with the larger batteries should be ok ( atleast on the east coast)


----------



## JohnDe (Tuesday at 11:43 AM)

sptrawler said:


> Not really, because people back when cars were invented weren't anywhere near as transient as we are today, also the expectation and requirement to cover long distances in a short period of time wasn't there, so the adoption of the automobile was extremely gradual.
> Add to that the fact that we are actually slowing down the process, whereas not only was the automobile starting from scratch, it was actually faster, could go further and didn't require constant food, water and sleep as the horse did.
> So it isn't an apples for apples comparison.
> We are now going from something that is already available, extremely effective and flexible, to a whole new system that for many ATM will cause a reduction in their perceived quality of life.
> ...




“people back when cars were invented weren't anywhere near as transient as we are today”

Maybe not in Australia, but in the USA they were. Check the history books.


----------



## Value Collector (Tuesday at 11:45 AM)

Sdajii said:


> That's not anything near any ball park I'd call 'a lot of kilometres every day'.
> 
> I often do over 1,000km in a day, I sometimes do 1,500km or more in a day. About a year ago I did just over 6,000km in just over 72 hours.
> 
> ...



I actually see EV’s as a great thing for remote areas once the infrastructure is built.

Think about it, currently you rely on a network tanker ships and trucks to deliver fuel out to the remote region for you. However this system could be replaced by an ev charging station powered by batteries and solar. Even if it had a back up diesel generator you would still require less tanker truck journeys


----------



## sptrawler (Tuesday at 11:53 AM)

Value Collector said:


> Mine would have a smaller battery than his, because they increased the battery range shortly after I bought mine.
> 
> The stated range of mine is 355km, but I can get more than that if I try, I have done over 400km before.
> 
> ...



I'm yet to do a long trip in mine, so I have no idea, it says expected range is 500kl on a full charge, but I'm not sure how accurate my GOM  (guess o meter) is yet.


----------



## sptrawler (Tuesday at 12:04 PM)

JohnDe said:


> “people back when cars were invented weren't anywhere near as transient as we are today”
> 
> Maybe not in Australia, but in the USA they were. Check the history books.



Maybe the USA are putting in more infrastructure?   But I'm not driving there and I'm more talking about my experience in W.A.🤣
But as VC and you have said, the East Coast sounds as though it has enough infrastructure already, I think the Northern Territory has one fast charger. 









						Mercedes plans 10,000 electric vehicle chargers globally by 2030, but not Australia
					

All electric vehicles could eventually benefit from a planned 10,000 charging network from Mercedes-Benz.




					www.drive.com.au
				




From Tesla website.


----------



## Value Collector (Tuesday at 12:16 PM)

sptrawler said:


> I'm yet to do a long trip in mine, so I have no idea, it says expected range is 500kl on a full charge, but I'm not sure how accurate my GOM  (guess o meter) is yet.
> 
> View attachment 151468
> 
> ...



Yeah, I am not sure about your car, but on mine in addition to that stock standard battery percentage range estimate you have two other way of estimating.

1, you have a live range estimate you can view based on your current driving pattern over the last 10km, 25km or 50km.

2, you can plug your route into your GPS navigation and the Tesla will tell you your expected battery % at the end, this is pretty accurate, if needed it will also select a route with a charger, it also provides a live estimate in the gps of your battery level at you


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## Value Collector (Tuesday at 12:20 PM)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe the USA are putting in more infrastructure?   But I'm not driving there and I'm more talking about my experience in W.A.🤣
> But as VC and you have said, the East Coast sounds as though it has enough infrastructure already, I think the Northern Territory has one fast charger.
> 
> 
> ...



I remember back in 2017 when I first placed my order for the Tesla, the Tesla charging network hadn’t reached Brisbane yet.

I was living in Sydney at the time but knew I would need to drive to Brisbane for the car to be practical to me, luckily between the time I placed my order and when I picked the car up 2 years later they had added 4 charging locations that allowed me to to Sydney to Brisbane easily, since then they have added another 4 on that route.

I live in hope that you WA guys will get some love soon 😅


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## JohnDe (Tuesday at 1:11 PM)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe the USA are putting in more infrastructure?   But I'm not driving there and I'm more talking about my experience in W.A.🤣
> But as VC and you have said, the East Coast sounds as though it has enough infrastructure already, I think the Northern Territory has one fast charger.
> 
> 
> ...




True, but as I’m pointing out changes happen before you know it and the slow get left behind trying to offload the horse & cart.


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## sptrawler (Tuesday at 1:13 PM)

JohnDe said:


> True, but as I’m pointing out changes happen before you know it and the slow get left behind trying to offload the horse & cart.



That is so true and the very reason I bought what I did.


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## JohnDe (Tuesday at 1:24 PM)

sptrawler said:


> Maybe the USA are putting in more infrastructure?   But I'm not driving there and I'm more talking about my experience in W.A.🤣
> But as VC and you have said, the East Coast sounds as though it has enough infrastructure already, I think the Northern Territory has one fast charger.
> 
> 
> ...




*PlugShare*


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## sptrawler (Tuesday at 1:28 PM)

JohnDe said:


> *PlugShare*
> 
> View attachment 151473



A lot of the plug share ones in W.A are 250v/10a outlets, even the fast chargers are a hit and miss story as they are few and far between, break down often and are vandalised a lot.
Just draw a line North South at Adelaide, then look West at how many yellow fast chargers there are.
Actually better than that, draw a diagonal line from Adelaide to Townsville and look on the left hand side of the line, then count the yellow dots. 🤣
I live in that sector. 
Looking at Esperance and going West, that one shows under repair and the next one toward Albany is Ravensthorpe 187km and that is a 20Kw charger. To say that isn't a bit of a problem is underplaying the issue somewhat IMO.


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## JohnDe (Tuesday at 1:34 PM)

sptrawler said:


> A lot of the plug share ones in W.A are 250v/10a outlets, even the fast chargers are a hit and miss story as they are few and far between, break down often and are vandalised a lot.
> Just draw a line North South at Adelaide, then look West at how many yellow fast chargers there are.
> Actually better than that, draw a diagonal line from Adelaide to Townsville and look on the left hand side of the line, then count the yellow dots. 🤣




Just had a quick look on my Plug Share app, all the green ones I checked are 3 phase. And a lot more pop up when you get in closer.


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## sptrawler (Tuesday at 1:48 PM)

JohnDe said:


> Just had a quick look on my Plug Share app, all the green ones I checked are 3 phase. And a lot more pop up when you get in closer.
> 
> View attachment 151474



It is a long drive around the South West coast from Perth to Esperance which is where most people live in W.A, the infrastructure is limited, but better than the Northern Territory. 

Have a look at Albany on the South coast population about 40,000, a couple of Tesla outlets the rest are a bit limited for travellers. Then head West toward Denmark - Perth, which is the most popular tourist route in W.A.
It will improve, but I'm only talking about at the moment, meanwhile incentives are been thrown at uptake, not support.
Anyway, it is what it is and it doesn't effect me at all, just passing the time.


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## JohnDe (Tuesday at 2:31 PM)

sptrawler said:


> It is a long drive around the South West coast from Perth to Esperance which is where most people live in W.A, the infrastructure is limited, but better than the Northern Territory.
> 
> Have a look at Albany on the South coast population about 40,000, a couple of Tesla outlets the rest are a bit limited for travellers. Then head West toward Denmark - Perth, which is the most popular tourist route in W.A.
> It will improve, but I'm only talking about at the moment, meanwhile incentives are been thrown at uptake, not support.
> Anyway, it is what it is and it doesn't effect me at all, just passing the time.




Not much less than where I live, with only one set of Tesla chargers in the city next to my home suburb, which has none. I still manage to get out & about to country locations & interstate. Things can only get better.


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## sptrawler (Tuesday at 2:39 PM)

JohnDe said:


> Not much less than where I live, with only one set of Tesla chargers in the city next to my home suburb, which has none. I still manage to get out & about to country locations & interstate. Things can only get better.
> 
> View attachment 151493



View attachment 151493


I think the Government should push to get at least one fast charger into every Town above a certain number of people, if that was done it would increase the uptake and would have the added benefit of encouraging people to install their own solar panels, which would reduce the demand on the electrical system.
It could actually be a Federally funded council initiative, where the Feds instruct the councils to organised it and the Feds funded it. It would also improve tourism options, for a lot of the more remote areas.
Just increasing the demand by giving business incentives to buy E.V's, is putting the horse before the cart IMO, but they have to start somewhere I suppose.


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## qldfrog (Tuesday at 8:34 PM)

sptrawler said:


> I'm not confident that most people will actually have a car in years to come, I'm of the opinion that autonomous ride share will be the end game for the plebs and personal vehicle ownership will be the realm of the essential services and the wealthy.
> Just my two cents worth.



That is what seems to be missing in all these EV talks:
the idea behind the push is not to save the planet, get independence or allow J Citizen to replace his her ICE by an EV;
This is just not materially possible with current battery technologies nor do the power in place care;
It is to have people in cities..rural people have to move  30% land back to nature 70% to agro corporation
And people in cities will NOT travel more than 20min, and for that  shared Uber style autonomous EV will be used


That is clear and neat in the WEF program;
In that context, traffic will be very limited, restricted to fleet of hauling trucks and a few ultra wealthy and specialist  moves
Remember  that the west only saw mass car adoption, freedom of movement in the 1900's 
Mega wealth (Rockfeller and Cie including UK magnate) was only attainable with the Dickens style worker armies, armies not even needed anymore so back to your hutch peons.
EV will be mandatory, will remain inaccessible to the masses and unfit by design to current uses.
We will talk about it in a decade and see where I was wrong


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## qldfrog (Tuesday at 8:35 PM)

qldfrog said:


> That is what seems to be missing in all these EV talks:
> the idea behind the push is not to save the planet, get independence or allow J Citizen to replace his her ICE by an EV;
> This is just not materially possible with current battery technologies nor do the power in place care;
> It is to have people in cities..rural people have to move  30% land back to nature 70% to agro corporation
> ...



And yes I will get an EV once I can be self sufficient off grid..the search for the perfect spot taking longer than planned


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## rcw1 (Today at 7:59 AM)

Good morning
Publish this morning (12/01/23)

Swiss Re urges car insurance rethink with EVs​The boom in electric vehicles could shake up the car insurance sector, reinsurance giant Swiss Re said Wednesday, urging insurers to gear up.
“Traditional vehicle insurance models are no longer enough to accurately capture the overall risk,” a study by Swiss Re said. “We need risk models that can focus on the particularities of EVs (electric vehicles),” it added.
Electric cars are quieter than internal-combustion vehicles, presenting a risk for pedestrians who don’t hear them coming in noisy urban settings. They are also heavier which can have its advantages, the study said. A lower centre of gravity may make them more stable which can reduce the risk of a serious accident.
“However, greater weight means higher impact force in collision with other road users,” the study added. Putting out a fire may also prove more difficult, while other differences with conventional cars include higher repair costs.
– AFP

Not sure what insurance companies doing in Australia.  Will be finding out soon though 

Kind regards
rcw1


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## rcw1 (Today at 9:18 AM)

Good morning
Got reading this article, by Electrek: _BMW, Mercedes, and VW each saw EV sales skyrocket vs. ICE slump, but who is winning? _ The heading kinda caught rcw1 attention.









						BMW, Mercedes, and VW each saw EV sales skyrocket vs. ICE slump, but who is winning?
					

Following a production year riddled with supply chain constraints, chip shortages, and a war in Ukraine, German automakers BMW Group,...




					electrek.co
				




Short end of the stick ...  Volkswagen saw the highest number of EV sales but the lowest growth. Mercedes-Benz saw the most growth but the smallest number of EV sales, and BMW Group was middle of the pack in both categories.

Have a very nice day, today.

Kind regards
rcw1


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