# Thread #1,000,000 about the pre-open!



## ChomChom (8 July 2008)

Hi,

I could never understand that. Some times, in the morning, before the market open and I look at the market depth of some companies, there are off market trades at a much higher price.
Then, in the BUY columns, the price is much higher and in the SELL column, the price is much lower. (like for MQG, NAB, PDN, WBC...etc) this morning...

This then seems to be inverted when the market opens. Most of the time this kind of situation is sign of a bad day for the share.

Is that some kind of trap?

Must look like a very stupid question but I couldn't find the answer anywhere


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## korrupt_1 (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

Pre-market auction.

http://www.asx.com.au/resources/education/basics/open_Close.htm

I remember the first time I came across this. I bought TLS the day before for $4ish. On the open auction, it went as high as $6'ish on the SELL side... i thought I made 50% gain overnight, but on the open it actually openned around where I bought it the day before.


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## captain black (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

This question comes up quite regularly, perhaps there needs to be a "sticky" thread regarding ASX market phases?

Here's how open and closing prices are calculated:

http://www.asx.com.au/resources/education/basics/open_Close.htm

[edit: ahhh, timing is everything, beaten by a minute by korrupt_1  ]


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## Trembling Hand (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

Yes for god sake can someone (Mods?) put together a good explanation with some screen shots and make it a sticky.

Please. what do we pay you slackers for???

Oh thats right we don't pay you.


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## ChomChom (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

Thanks guys, that helps me a lot... Yeah, it should be sticky, I'm sure lots of beginner are wondering what it means, but when you search, it's pretty hard to know which keywords to use to find the answer

Cheers


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## ChomChom (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

Ok, it's pre-market auctions... and then?

What's the explanation? Most of the time, when the off market price is going up, why are the orders in the queue following before the market opens?

Is it that people are anticipating that it will go down, then are placing orders BUY orders at a much higher price to lure beginners so they are moving their orders up, so these people can place their owen BUY orders lower in the queue?? Is it a conspiracy?


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## Trembling Hand (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*



ChomChom said:


> Ok, it's pre-market auctions... and then?
> 
> What's the explanation? Most of the time, when the off market price is going up, why are the orders in the queue following before the market opens?
> 
> Is it that people are anticipating that it will go down, then are placing orders BUY orders at a much higher price to lure beginners so they are moving their orders up, so these people can place their owen BUY orders lower in the queue?? Is it a conspiracy?




No its just so they get filled on the open. It has nothing to do with sucking in newbies. Its just so the order gets filled.


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## ChomChom (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

I still don't understand, that's what I was thinking at first, but I've tried many times to put a SELL order at a higher price... I was one of the first in the queue and there were BUY orders higher that my SELL price... my orders have never been filled


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## captain black (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

It's simply a way to guarantee that your order is filled at the open or close, there's generally nothing sinister about it.

I trade a mechanical system that was designed around open and closing prices therefore I try to guarantee that my orders are filled at that time, which may mean placing what appear to be well out of the money bids or offers.


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## korrupt_1 (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

It really boils down to how desperate you want to own stocks and/or dump stocks.

The more desperate, the more extreme the price you will have to bid/offer.

Once the calculation for the open price is done (with respect to the volume as well). Then any BUY ABOVE that price will be filled. Like-wise, any SELL BELOW that price will be executed.

I have seen at times ridiculous offers with huge volume that appears a few seconds before the opening - skewing the opening price calculation to lure people to place orders at even more extremes to get filled, then only to pull that order out at the very last second... shonky....


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## captain black (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*



ChomChom said:


> I still don't understand, that's what I was thinking at first, but I've tried many times to put a SELL order at a higher price... I was one of the first in the queue and there were BUY orders higher that my SELL price... my orders have never been filled




A sell order would need to go in at a lower price.
Do you have streaming data? A lot of orders come in only seconds before open/close.


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## nomore4s (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*



ChomChom said:


> I still don't understand, that's what I was thinking at first, but I've tried many times to put a SELL order at a higher price... I was one of the first in the queue and there were BUY orders higher that my SELL price... my orders have never been filled




It fills the lowest sell orders and the highest buy orders first, until a common price is met then all the orders go through at that price.

It may take a while to fully understand.

There is certainly no conspiracy, lol.


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## ChomChom (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

Thanks for you patience guys, that's very kind to explain to a newby like me 

I'm still wondering how I could make a 40% return on my first 3 months trading, must be beginner's luck


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## Trembling Hand (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

Guys I will post a video capture of the open in a couple of stocks today or tomorrow. have to check the quality of what I got today. may help people without live data.


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## Trembling Hand (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

Ok here is the opening Auction for BHP on today's open.
It starts at about 9:30 and shows the orders being placed into the market to get a fill on the open.(I have sped it up to a 2 min vid)

What you have to look for is the indicative opening price which is around $40.00. As you can see there are many buy orders placed way above the indicative open and many sell order placed way below that, some $10 below or above. This is not a conspiracy. Its just to give the person assurance that the order will be filled on the open. watch about 140 sec into the video when BHP opens. What you will see in the trades is 233 orders go through @ the opening price. That was what all the strange orders were placed into the market for. Any BUY order above the indicative open were filled. Any sell order below the indicative order were filled. Everything else was left in the order book.

The matching to get the opening price is done by the ASX based on price & volume as per the above asx link.


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## captain black (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

A picture paints a thousand words!

Well done TH


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## ChomChom (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

That's great, thanks a lot!


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## Trembling Hand (8 July 2008)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*

Here is another one but this time its todays closing Auction on OXR.

As you can see the last trade was $2.11 at 4:00 pm.

The closing Auction is the same process as the opening one. You have Buy orders much higher than the last traded price and Sell orders much lower. But on a volume and price level they normally match reasonably close to the 4:00 pm close. If you watch closely around 120 seconds you can see all the shuffling going on to get in the closing auction around the $2.10 level.


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## Trembling Hand (9 July 2008)

*Re: Thread #1,000,000 about the preopen!*

I see that these vid's have lost some resolution over the last day??

Will try and upload these file to my blog and see if I can fix this


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## xyzedarteerf (9 July 2008)

*Re: Thread #1,000,000 about the preopen!*



Trembling Hand said:


> I see that these vid's have lost some resolution over the last day??
> 
> Will try and upload these file to my blog and see if I can fix this




please upload the raw vids,  I would like to see them with better resolution thanks.


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## Trembling Hand (9 July 2008)

*Re: Thread #1,000,000 about the preopen!*

Ok here they are. The BHP file is from today's open but same thing applies. You can see the indicative open tick down from $40.20 to $40.10 just before it opens then it actually goes through at $40.08.

BHP file,
http://tremblinghandtrader.typepad.com/BHPPreOpen9_7_08.wmv

OXR file,
http://tremblinghandtrader.typepad.com/OXRClosingAuction.wmv


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## xyzedarteerf (9 July 2008)

*Re: Thread #1,000,000 about the preopen!*

thanks TH.


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## Timmy (9 July 2008)

*Re: Thread #1,000,000 about the preopen!*

Thanks for the vids TH.

I have stickied this thread, at least for the short-term.

I think one of the problems is although the question has been answered on, let's count 'em, yep 1,000,000 threads, beginners don't know to search for 'pre-open' (the problem with jargon is new entrants don't know it yet) so may as well prepare for it to be asked a few more times...


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## captain black (9 July 2008)

*Re: Thread #1,000,000 about the preopen!*



Timmy said:


> I have stickied this thread, at least for the short-term.




Thanks Timmy.



Timmy said:


> I think one of the problems is although the question has been answered on, let's count 'em, yep 1,000,000 threads, beginners don't know to search for 'pre-open' (the problem with jargon is new entrants don't know it yet) so may as well prepare for it to be asked a few more times...




No doubt, but it will be handy to have this thread to link to next time the question is asked, TH's excellent videos should clear up the confusion for most newcomers.


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## mkelpie (15 June 2009)

*Pre-open prices in market depth*

Hi ppl,

When I'm looking at the buy/sell prices in market depth at pre-open, what is going on?

This morning I was looking at CVN that showed lots of buyers at $1.00, but it opened just 0.05 higher than previous close, what's with that?

cheers


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## cooper1308 (15 June 2009)

*Re: Pre-open prices in market depth*

http://www.asx.com.au/resources/education/basics/open_Close.htm



mkelpie said:


> Hi ppl,
> 
> When I'm looking at the buy/sell prices in market depth at pre-open, what is going on?
> 
> ...


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## nomore4s (15 June 2009)

*Re: Pre-open prices in market depth*



mkelpie said:


> Hi ppl,
> 
> When I'm looking at the buy/sell prices in market depth at pre-open, what is going on?
> 
> ...




mkelpie,

I have moved your post to this thread, please read through it for a indepth answer to your question.


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## hobotivo (20 August 2009)

*How are opening prices worked out?*

As I look at the depth of market on commsec right now (9.15am, pre-open) for FMG I see at the top of the BUY an order for 15,000 at $4.90, and at the top of SELL an order to sell 1,064 at $4.12.  How will this work out?  Will the seller get $4.90 or will the buyer get $4.12? or something else altogether?

Please pardon my ignorance, I'm just starting to try to understand how this stuff all works. 

Cheers
Hobotivo


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## nomore4s (20 August 2009)

*Re: How are opening prices worked out?*



hobotivo said:


> As I look at the depth of market on commsec right now (9.15am, pre-open) for FMG I see at the top of the BUY an order for 15,000 at $4.90, and at the top of SELL an order to sell 1,064 at $4.12.  How will this work out?  Will the seller get $4.90 or will the buyer get $4.12? or something else altogether?
> 
> Please pardon my ignorance, I'm just starting to try to understand how this stuff all works.
> 
> ...




Hobotivo

I have moved your post to this thread, please read through it for a indepth answer to your question.


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## Australia (2 September 2009)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*



Trembling Hand said:


> Here is another one but this time its todays closing Auction on OXR.
> 
> As you can see the last trade was $2.11 at 4:00 pm.



 how do you get access to that kind of information? Is that Iress trading platform like those offered by Commsec at a premium price?


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## Trembling Hand (3 September 2009)

*Re: What does it mean when the market depth before opening is highl*



Australia said:


> how do you get access to that kind of information? Is that Iress trading platform like those offered by Commsec at a premium price?




Its not iress but thats where most seem to start when they are after Dynamic data.


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## MilanB (14 October 2009)

*Pre-open bid/ask definition*

Hi All!

I have just joined this Forum and am hoping to get some wisdom from you all regarding the relavance of placing pre-open orders or more succinctly put....  Is there a strategy used to ensure that whatever the stock price opens at one will have a high chance of getting it at that price.

As an example, if a stock is sitting at 5c ask and 6c bid does this mean that anyone placing a 6.5c bid will have a higher chance of getting the 'lowest' open price.

Thanking everyone in advance...

Mick.


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## AngusSmart (8 July 2010)

*Please explain this...*

Looking at rio, it closed at 65 yesterday

someones got a sell on it for 61...

is the person selling at 61 for real? or whats the story?

Hows does this work can someone explain a bit about it?


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## nomore4s (8 July 2010)

*Re: Please explain this...*



AngusSmart said:


> Looking at rio, it closed at 65 yesterday
> 
> someones got a sell on it for 61...
> 
> ...




Angus,

Go through this thread, from memory there are some videos in it that explain the process.


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## AngusSmart (8 July 2010)

*Re: Please explain this...*



nomore4s said:


> Angus,
> 
> Go through this thread, from memory there are some videos in it that explain the process.




Ok sweet, didnt know it was pre open! i have read this before. so from what i gathered no body is actually buying at that price, they are just trying to jump the queue and get in first for the opening price..

is that correct??


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## nomore4s (8 July 2010)

*Re: Please explain this...*



AngusSmart said:


> Ok sweet, didnt know it was pre open! i have read this before. so from what i gathered no body is actually buying at that price, they are just trying to jump the queue and get in first for the opening price..
> 
> is that correct??




Pretty much yes.


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## Wysiwyg (8 July 2010)

Full explanation here. Actually the ASX site is full of relevant information.

http://www.asx.com.au/resources/education/basics/open_Close.htm


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## nulla nulla (9 July 2010)

Hi nomore4s, I have a question for you that I believe is consistant with this thread. 
I have noticed in the morning indicative auction (iap) for opening prices that, in some shares, there will be large volumes of buys above the iap, offset by large volumes of sells below the iap. However when the market opens, the volume of shares traded is significantly less then the combined volume that was showing in the buys above the iap and the sells below the iap.

Where do these large volumes evaporate to in the micro seconds before the market opens? Is it a broker juggling both sides of the iap then withdrawing the buy/sell bids when they have achieved their desired price?


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## pixel (9 July 2010)

nulla nulla said:


> Is it a broker juggling both sides of the iap then withdrawing the buy/sell bids when they have achieved their desired price?




Simple answer: "Yes"
Addendum: You may find this "juggling" especially noticeable on the morning of an Option Expiry day, when it is quite important for writers of puts and calls to ensure the exercises do the least "damage". Meaning, most options must expire worthless, so the writers can keep the premium AND their share positions (be they Long or Short). On those days, it is quite important to know the relevant price points at which the Open Interest in the nearest Put or Call has the largest excess.

PS: For "broker" better read FM - which, depending on your mental inclination stands for either "Fund Manager" or "F'ing Manipulator".


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## noie (30 July 2010)

I just thought i would add something, some exchanges use priority pro-rata system and of course active GTC's in the market win on a priority FIFO based trading system.

People in the UK would abuse the GTC system months in advance hoping to catch a big overnight movement


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## burnzau (11 October 2010)

G'day All,

Does anyone know what software/subscription Trembling Hand was using when he made these video's?

Or does anyone else have any recommendations for a site/software package that can give me live market depth?

Cheers,

Craig


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## Trembling Hand (11 October 2010)

burnzau said:


> G'day All,
> 
> Does anyone know what software/subscription Trembling Hand was using when he made these video's?
> 
> ...




Craig that software was http://www.iguana2.com.au/spark

Most brokers have live dynamic depth if you pay for it around $50 to $100 per month or trade enough to get it "free"   etrade for example, https://invest.etrade.com.au/TradingTools/ActiveTraders/Default.aspx


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## teabagger (9 November 2010)

Hi knowers of all things pre open.

My question is regarding surplus's. If at pre open there are more buyers(or so it appears) than sellers, how/where from does a surplus come about?

Thanks folks


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## captain black (9 November 2010)

teabagger said:


> My question is regarding surplus's. If at pre open there are more buyers(or so it appears) than sellers, how/where from does a surplus come about?




I'm not sure I understand the question but the surplus would refer to surplus volume on either the bid or ask at the match or indicative open price.


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## pixel (10 November 2010)

teabagger said:


> Hi knowers of all things pre open.
> 
> My question is regarding surplus's. If at pre open there are more buyers(or so it appears) than sellers, how/where from does a surplus come about?
> 
> Thanks folks




quite simple:
If there is a bid/offer overlap during Pre-Open, the match-out price (usually labelled IAP) is the price, where the two volumes "meet". Rarely are the volumes equal, so you have a surplus of bids or a surplus of offers - which is usually referred to as a negative surplus, or "too few bids".
Say there are 5000 shares bid 20c or higher, 5010 shares offered for sale 20c or lower, then the surplus is 10 shares on the sellers' side.
If there are 5000 shares bid 20c or higher, but only 4990 sell offers, then you have 10 shares surplus on the bidders' side - or a shortfall of 10 bids.
One side's surplus is quoted as plus (I'm quite sure it's bids), the other side as minus.


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## teabagger (10 November 2010)

Thanks Pixel and Captain,

I knew the answer would be simple. I had a picture in my head of homeless shares until someone picked them up, where as in fact it is just an imbalance.


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## pixel (10 November 2010)

Here is an easy-to-follow example:
Pre-Open, MYG has 210,000 shares bid, 326,845 offered, an EquiVolume of 210,000 matched-out at 7.5c, and a surplus of minus 116,845.


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## mattryanshares (18 January 2011)

*Start of trading bid prices way above closing price?*

I just noticed on every one of my shares that i hold there are currently bids in way over the selling price or offers to sell price?

Why is this? Why are people trying to buy say LYC at 2.20 when it was selling yesterday at close at 1.95??

Are these bogus or does it just garantee they will get them for 1.95???

Hope ive explained this correctly??


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## mattryanshares (18 January 2011)

*Re: Start of trading bid prices way above closing price?*

Eg

Market Depth 
BUY SELL 
  52 Week 

Number Quantity Price 
1 80 90.170 
1 13 89.780 
1 2 88.070 
1 173 88.000 
1 148 87.590 
2 530 87.000 
2 1,600 86.940 
4 1,002 86.000 
2 73 85.950 
1 26 85.920 
 # 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
 Price Quantity Number 
80.000 7,500 1 
84.390 93 1 
84.900 3,700 1 
85.000 3,112 2 
85.750 47 1 
85.800 14 1 
85.860 142 1 
86.000 10,179 5 
86.100 115 1 
86.170 150 1 
  High Low 
 88.550 58.860 
 Last traded time  


641 buyers for 265,799 units


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## captain black (18 January 2011)

*Re: Start of trading bid prices way above closing price?*



mattryanshares said:


> I just noticed on every one of my shares that i hold there are currently bids in way over the selling price or offers to sell price?
> 
> Why is this? Why are people trying to buy say LYC at 2.20 when it was selling yesterday at close at 1.95??
> 
> ...




This thread should explain it:

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11619


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## mattryanshares (18 January 2011)

Not sure if this relates to this thread but i see on closing today someone has put in two bids on LYC for 3200000 and 3800000 shares 2.5 cents above the closing price. 

Are these legit or will they most likely be withdrawn?? Is it illegal to put in offers and then withdraw them??

Time              Price     Volume       Value             Condition
04:14:27 PM   1.935    3,800,000   7,353,000.00   S1 XT 
04:13:31 PM   1.937    3,200,000   6,198,400.00   S1 XT 
04:10:59 PM   1.910    46 87.86


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## sirpollicles (28 March 2011)

*Why do people put in premarket orders for like $1 MORE than peoples selling*

example - todays premarket for IL, there is someone wanting shares offering $13, and the lowest selling price is $11.20.

Whats the dealio?


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## sirpollicles (28 March 2011)

*Re: Why do people put in premarket orders for like $1 MORE than peoples selling*

ILU**


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## joea (30 May 2011)

mattryanshares said:


> Not sure if this relates to this thread but i see on closing today someone has put in two bids on LYC for 3200000 and 3800000 shares 2.5 cents above the closing price.
> 
> Are these legit or will they most likely be withdrawn?? Is it illegal to put in offers and then withdraw them??
> 
> ...




Hi.
You have focused on the price and volume.
The condition  S1 XT is the explaination.
You can chase this up on the site where you got it. i.e. it is a cross trade.
There will be a list of all the conditions.
I am just about sure that it has been explained on this forum somewhere.
Cheers


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## FreshTrader (30 September 2011)

Wysiwyg said:


> Full explanation here. Actually the ASX site is full of relevant information.
> 
> http://www.asx.com.au/resources/education/basics/open_Close.htm




This link was heaps helpful, thanks very much for the post, much more clear to me now.


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## Tristan576 (3 February 2012)

*Why does this occurr?*

Hey guys just a quick question - at the end of most trading days the bid price rises substantially in comparison to the offer as seen in the picture.

What is the reason for this? Is it just a few people trying to sneak in at the last minute or what?

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff504/murd576/pricerise.jpg

Cheers


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## skc (3 February 2012)

*Re: Why does this occurr?*



Tristan576 said:


> Hey guys just a quick question - at the end of most trading days the bid price rises substantially in comparison to the offer as seen in the picture.
> 
> What is the reason for this? Is it just a few people trying to sneak in at the last minute or what?
> 
> ...




https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11619


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## Boggo (3 February 2012)

*Re: Why does this occurr?*



Tristan576 said:


> Hey guys just a quick question - at the end of most trading days the bid price rises substantially in comparison to the offer as seen in the picture.
> 
> What is the reason for this? Is it just a few people trying to sneak in at the last minute or what?
> 
> ...




http://www.asx.com.au/products/calculate-open-close-prices.htm


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## pixel (3 February 2012)

*Re: Why does this occurr?*



Tristan576 said:


> Hey guys just a quick question - at the end of most trading days the bid price rises substantially in comparison to the offer as seen in the picture.
> 
> What is the reason for this? Is it just a few people trying to sneak in at the last minute or what?
> 
> ...



 google "ASX closing auction" or click here: http://www.asx.com.au/products/ASX-Trading%20hours-Market-phases.htm


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## Ridgydidge (15 February 2013)

hmmmm... so much to learn. This is my very first post here. I have been reading threads here for a couple of weeks, taking in all i can (Sir Iso's thread rocks  ). 

I have a question i believe is pertinent to this thread....

If there are more buyers than sellers at pre open can you place a buy order to market to ensure your contract is filled? eg.. before the market rises to meet the orders?

Thanks for all the people who contribute to this site. I am eager to gain as much knowledge as possible before diving into the sharemarket and am grateful for your willingness the share your knowledge


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## pixel (15 February 2013)

Ridgydidge said:


> hmmmm... so much to learn.
> If there are more buyers than sellers at pre open can you place a buy order to market to ensure your contract is filled? eg.. before the market rises to meet the orders?




simple answer: No.
While a stock is in pre-open, you cannot place an order "at market"; you HAVE TO specify a limit.

If you have a live data service that includes market depth (i.e. bids and offers), there will be an "Indicative Open Price" or IAP on display. So you don't even have to sum it all up yourself - which is quite handy because every new bid or offer will of course change the situation.
The good news is, you can bid any amount. For example, if the iap is $1 and you're desperate to get filled, you can bid x shares for $2, just to make sure you do get your fill.
The bad news is, you may end up getting the shares at, say, $1.10, only to find the price drop back to $1.01.


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## burglar (15 February 2013)

pixel said:


> ... For example, if the iap is $1 and you're desperate to get filled, you can bid x shares for $2, just to make sure you do get your fill.
> The bad news is, you may end up getting the shares at, say, $1.10, only to find the price drop back to $1.01.




You need to be aware that sellers can drop out and leave you hanging out to dry. 
i.e. leave you paying the full $2
Experience will tell you the likelihood of this happening. 
Best to not cross swords in the pre-open until you understand how it works.


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## Ridgydidge (15 February 2013)

Thanks guys, that has definately cleared the situation up for me


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## justin99 (19 September 2019)

hi all, first post!

sorry to drag up an old thread but I didn't want to create a new one.
My question is regarding the pre-open;
One way for finding stocks in play is to look at pre-market movers. Is this something that can only be done with the US markets? Every chart I've looked at for ASX stocks from market close to open there is zero market activity.
Thanks


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## Gringotts Bank (19 September 2019)

justin99 said:


> hi all, first post!
> 
> sorry to drag up an old thread but I didn't want to create a new one.
> My question is regarding the pre-open;
> ...



Iress products.  WebIress is clunky as ****, but it is reliable and serviceable.  The column is called M% (match price % change).


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## peter2 (19 September 2019)

@justin99  The ASX doesn't trade pre-market like the US.


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## Gringotts Bank (19 September 2019)

You can trade the equivalent, which is looking at the match volume and gap.  Finding the match volume will require a bit of fancy footwork with excel.


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